Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 894

     1      Monday, 24th March 1997

     2      (10.00 am)

     3                     DR MARIE-JANINE CALIC (continued)

     4                 Cross-examined by MR BRACKOVIC (continued)

     5      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

     6          We ended the week with the witness and we are starting

     7          the next week with the same witness.  I think we should

     8          not be allowing her to continue on her own for so long.

     9          Will you swear the witness?

    10      THE REGISTRAR:   May I remind you that you are still under

    11          oath?

    12      A.  Okay.

    13      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Okay.  Who is on the

    14          cross-examination?  It is Mr Brackovic.  You are on the

    15          cross-examination.  The witness is all for you.

    16      MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation):   Good morning, your

    17          Honours.  Good morning, Ms Calic, and good morning to

    18          everybody else present in the court room today.

    19                Ms Calic, the last question I asked of you on

    20          Friday was whether in the months of April and May in

    21          1992 there were armed conflicts between the TO and the

    22          HVO, on the one side, and the JNA and the Serb forces in

    23          the area of Konjic?

    24      A.  Apparently there were.

    25      Q.  Before these conflicts the JNA mobilised Serb volunteers

Page 895

     1          and distributed arms, has it not?

     2      A.  It has.

     3      Q.  Ms Calic, the Konjic municipality was part of the second

     4          military district, was it not, before the outbreak of

     5          these conflicts that I just asked you about?

     6      A.  Yes, it was.

     7      Q.  The second military district comprised a large area, did

     8          it not?

     9      A.  Yes, it did.

    10      Q.  The JNA armed and organised the volunteer units in the

    11          territory of the second military district, did it not?

    12      A.  Yes, it did.

    13      Q.  The size of these volunteer units was 69,198 men, was it

    14          not?

    15      A.  Yes.

    16      Q.  These units were organised into battalions and

    17          detachments and companies, were they not?

    18      A.  Yes, but there were also big differences from areas to

    19          areas, so ... but they were organised.

    20      Q.  In a military sense organised.  The JNA distributed

    21          51,900 pieces of weapons, did it not?

    22      A.  Yes.

    23      Q.  And the SDS distributed 17,298 pieces of weapons, did it

    24          not?

    25      A.  I am not sure about that, but it may well be.

Page 896

     1      Q.  I found this in your report.  That is in one of the

     2          enclosures, document number 54, which you attached.  I

     3          have not seen it before.  On the basis of this

     4          information which you provided, which you confirmed and

     5          which we had an opportunity to see in the attachment,

     6          the JNA participated in the distribution of the arms

     7          with 75 per cent and the SDS with the remaining 25 per

     8          cent; is that correct?

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  Thank you.  That is a significant armed force, is it

    11          not, Ms Calic, 69,198 men with these amount of weapons;

    12          is that correct?

    13      A.  This is correct, but I should also add that also the

    14          other sides were arming their people, and you can see

    15          this from the very same report as well as from other

    16          reports, and the Ministry of Interior of Bosnia was very

    17          concerned about that fact, and also the international

    18          community, which then reacted imposing an arms embargo

    19          on the entire territory.

    20      Q.  Thank you.  You will agree that the JNA and the TO were

    21          the only organised armed forces in the territory of the

    22          former Yugoslavia; is that correct?

    23      A.  There were also numerous paramilitary forces, and they

    24          were also organised to a certain extent.  We should also

    25          bear this in mind.  Like the Green Berets, for

Page 897

     1          instance.  I included a report coming from the United

     2          Nations commissions of experts.  So these paramilitary

     3          forces were also organised to a certain extent.  That is

     4          what I wanted to say.

     5      JUDGE JAN:   Just a minute.  These Green Berets.  They were

     6          outside the TO and JNA with the constitution?

     7      A.  Yes.

     8      JUDGE JAN:   What was the basis of their recruitment?

     9      A.  They were volunteers apparently, volunteers, and then

    10          under the law they should unify with the other forces,

    11          but in the first months they did not, but they continued

    12          to act independently.

    13      JUDGE JAN:   Another question I wanted to ask: when did the

    14          JNA start disarming the TO and arming the local Serbs?

    15      A.  It apparently started in the second half of 1991, so in

    16          the Autumn of 1991, when the war in Croatia was already

    17          on-going.

    18      JUDGE JAN:   That is before Bosnia-Herzegovina declared

    19          itself an independent state.  That is the 14th October?

    20      A.  Yes, apparently, yes, but I would like to stress again

    21          also the other parties were arming their respective

    22          communities even at this time.  I got also reports on

    23          this fact.

    24      MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation):   My next question is:

    25          these volunteer units, which numbered 69,198 men, were

Page 898

     1          paramilitary formations, were they not?

     2      A.  You speak of the Serbs?

     3      Q.  Yes, yes, Serbs?

     4      A.  Yes.

     5      Q.  Thank you.  In the TO depot in Konjic there was 5,980

     6          pieces of weapons belonging to the TO; is that correct?

     7      A.  There are reports, yes, but maybe there were also more,

     8          you know.  It's very difficult to assess how many

     9          weapons were really around.  I have to rely on the

    10          reports I got, but maybe these figures are not entirely

    11          correct.

    12      Q.  The former JNA was an armed force of all ethnic groups

    13          living in the former Yugoslavia; is that correct?  It

    14          was composed of the members of all national groups?

    15      A.  This is correct.

    16      Q.  This army only armed the Serbian people; is that

    17          correct?

    18      A.  This is correct.

    19      Q.  And thereby this army took an active role in the

    20          creating of the smaller rump Yugoslavia and in creating

    21          Serb-dominated Yugoslavia?

    22      A.  They would argue differently, of course.  They would

    23          argue that they helped the Serbs to defend themselves.

    24          Of course, this led then to the creation of a Serb

    25          para-state and to some kind of unification of different

Page 899

     1          Serb-settled areas, but the JNA, I have seen no

     2          documents saying that we are creating Greater Serbia,

     3          not one single document, even not the Kideric.

     4      Q.  Has it not started, these pleadings, with Garasanin and

     5          his work Nacertanije?

     6      A.  I do not think so, because this was written in 1834, and

     7          they are 150 years in between.  So many things changed

     8          meanwhile.  Bosnia did not exist as a state.  At that

     9          time it was part of the Ottoman Empire.  Later on it was

    10          part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.  So maybe we should

    11          not over-stress the fact that there might be a certain

    12          continuity of ideas.

    13      Q.  But in the Memorandum of the Serbian Academy of Science

    14          this theory was advocated, was it not, as well as in the

    15          public appearances of Voslof's "Cecel" the idea of

    16          Greater Serbia was propounded, which would extend to the

    17          west of the country up to Virovica-Karlovac-Karlobac

    18          line, did it not?

    19      A.  You see, this Memorandum of the Serb Academy of

    20          Sciences, which was written in 1986 and then published

    21          in 1987, this document has been written by a Serb

    22          intellectual, and they were complaining about alleged

    23          Serb discrimination, discrimination of Serbs, but they

    24          did not say explicitly: "Let's conquer Bosnia or

    25          Slovenia or Croatia."  It was an expression of national

Page 900

     1          feeling of Serb nationalists, but it was not a

     2          master-plan of creating Greater Serbia.

     3                Also you mentioned then other persons,

     4          nationalists, and I think there were many different

     5          options how this Greater Serbia could look like.  It was

     6          not just one option.  There were very different ideas

     7          and opinions about that.  So I think we should be

     8          careful, and as for this Memorandum of the Serbian

     9          Academy of Science, it was a kind of expression of what

    10          national-oriented intellectuals were thinking at that

    11          time in the second half of the 1980s, but it was not a

    12          kind of master-plan of JNA attack.

    13      Q.  Ms Calic, because of this idea of creation of Greater

    14          Serbia, the war in Croatia started in 1991, and a lot of

    15          fighting took place on the line which I just mentioned,

    16          did it not?  Those are the facts.

    17      A.  You see, there are different views on that, and I am not

    18          here to take sides or to say this is why the war broke

    19          out.  I just say there were different views.  You claim

    20          that the main reason for the war, the main cause, was

    21          for the greater Serb plan.  The Serbs, on the other

    22          hand, would argue: "No, we just wanted to stay within

    23          Yugoslavia."  So I do not want to say whether one side

    24          is correct or wrong.  I would just like to explain to

    25          this court there were just different views.  We should

Page 901

     1          also accept this, different views.

     2      Q.  I agree with you that there were different views.  The

     3          Serbs have one version of events and the others have

     4          another one, but I am speaking about the truth.  I am

     5          speaking about the facts and the facts were that there

     6          was fighting in 1991; is that correct?

     7      A.  There was fighting in 1991.

     8      Q.  Thank you.  The JNA organised volunteer units in the

     9          Konjic municipality, did it not, Ms Calic?

    10      A.  Yes.

    11      Q.  Ms Calic, did you state that the Konjic municipality was

    12          located on the only railroad line and the road leading

    13          from Sarajevo to Ploci and then to Central Bosnia as

    14          well?

    15      A.  Maybe it was a matter for translation.  It was, of

    16          course, not the same road or line which led to Central

    17          Bosnia but there was a road leading to Central Bosnia

    18          from this main road, Sarajevo coast.

    19      Q.  Yes.  I said from the Ploci port towards Sarajevo.  That

    20          is the only main highway, which is M17; correct?

    21      A.  Yes.

    22      Q.  There is only one railroad line that is going from the

    23          Ploci port through Mostar, Konjic, Sarajevo; is that

    24          correct?

    25      A.  Yes.

Page 902

     1      Q.  Thank you.  In other words, we can say that these two

     2          communication lines are sort of the spine as far as the

     3          communication lines are concerned within

     4          Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

     5      A.  Yes.

     6      Q.  Also we could say that the Konjic municipality is

     7          situated in a strategic position linking Sarajevo to

     8          Herzegovina and Central Bosnia; correct?

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  It was, therefore, of strategic significance, as you put

    11          it in your report, and it was of significance to all the

    12          warring parties; correct?

    13      A.  Correct.

    14      Q.  Konjic was an important military centre in the former

    15          Yugoslavia too; correct?

    16      A.  Yes, it was.

    17      Q.  Given the military industry located there?

    18      A.  Yes.

    19      Q.  It had the plant Igman, which was one of the largest

    20          ammunition manufacturing plants in Bosnia; correct?

    21      A.  Correct.

    22      Q.  This plant had surface of some 20,000 square metres, and

    23          it was built underground; correct?

    24      A.  Correct.

    25      Q.  In the Konjic municipality there are other military

Page 903

     1          facilities of significance; correct?

     2      A.  Correct.

     3      Q.  For instance the Celebici barracks, which had a large

     4          depot and facilities for large fuel storage; correct?

     5      A.  Yes.

     6      Q.  Then there is the Ljuta barracks, which also had

     7          underground facilities of 6,000 square metre area;

     8          correct?

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  And it was storing the TO weaponry; correct?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      Q.  And there was the barracks in Borci, which is also in

    13          the Konjic municipality; correct?

    14      A.  Correct.

    15      Q.  Ms Calic, you pointed an interesting thing and that is

    16          that the settlements that were predominantly Serb, like

    17          Bradina, Brdjani, Donje Selo, Celebici and Bjelovcina,

    18          that these villages were situated along this road M17,

    19          which is linking Sarajevo and Konjic; correct?

    20      A.  Correct.

    21      Q.  The village of Brdani is situated, as can be seen in the

    22          map, along the railroad linking Sarajevo and Konjic;

    23          correct?

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  When you spoke about the JNA arming the Serbian

Page 904

     1          population as well as did the SDS, that they formed

     2          volunteer units, you must have thought of these

     3          villages:  Bradina, Brdjani, Donje Selo, Celebici and

     4          Bjelovcina?

     5      A.  Not really.  He was thinking of the Serb population as a

     6          whole because people were afraid in this municipality

     7          and other parts of Bosnia.  So they distributed -- these

     8          weapons were distributed also in other areas, not only

     9          in the strategically interesting ones.

    10      Q.  But we can agree with the view that these arms were

    11          distributed to the Serbian population which lived in

    12          Bradina, Brdjani, Donje Selo, Celebici and Bijelovcina;

    13          correct?

    14      A.  There were probably also weapons distributed in these

    15          areas to these villages.

    16      Q.  When a moment ago we confirmed that the Serbian

    17          population was organised in military terms in platoons

    18          and detachments and companies, this also is relating to

    19          the villages that I have just mentioned; correct?

    20      A.  I do not know that.  I do not know.

    21      Q.  Ms Calic, do you know that the JNA some time in May 1992

    22          had an air raid on the Konjic area and four aeroplanes

    23          and helicopters of the JNA were shot down at that time?

    24          Do you know that?

    25      A.  Could you please repeat the date?

Page 905

     1      Q.  May 1992, around May, maybe early May 1992, there was an

     2          air raid on the municipality and the city of Konjic on

     3          the part of the JNA air force, and on that occasion four

     4          aeroplanes and one helicopter of the JNA were shot down;

     5          is that correct?

     6      MR OSTBERG:  Your Honour, I have to object to this

     7          question.  It has been in detail discussed under the

     8          cross-examination done by Ms Residovic, all these

     9          attacks, and the witness has in detail stated exactly

    10          what she knew or what she could know about these attacks

    11          and stated she was not a military expert, not a

    12          "historian" for the recent happenings like these

    13          attacks.

    14                So we cannot have it, I think, your Honour, that

    15          these questions are asked once more of another defence

    16          attorney.  I cannot help pointing out that for the last

    17          20 minutes Ms Calic has said barely nothing but

    18          "correct".  We are going through exactly what she has

    19          already stated.  I think this repetitious way of

    20          cross-examining is not the way it should be done.  Thank

    21          you, your Honour.

    22      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Thank you very much.  Mr Brackovic,

    23          can you carry on?

    24      MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation):   I asked you whether you

    25          were aware of the fact not as a witness of the fact, as

Page 906

     1          a factual witness, but as a scientist, as a historian,

     2          that in 1992 in May there were air strikes in the town

     3          and municipality of Konjic carried out by the JNA, and

     4          that on that occasion four aeroplanes and one helicopter

     5          of the JNA were shot down; that is correct?

     6      A.  I read in some of the witness statements about air

     7          attacks and I read also that these air attacks were

     8          meant as a reaction to attacks on JNA facilities.  So I

     9          am not a fact witness.  I cannot say whether or not it

    10          was a reaction or whether or not it was aggression or

    11          whatever.  I read in the witness statements that there

    12          were such air attacks or air raids.

    13      Q.  So it was in the interest of the JNA to preserve the

    14          military industry in the municipality of Konjic, to keep

    15          all the TO armaments stored in the Ljuta barracks; is

    16          that correct?

    17      A.  They were apparently trying, and I tried to explain this

    18          also last week, they were apparently trying to transfer

    19          these weapons to other areas, but they were not

    20          successful in this.

    21      Q.  So they had an interest in those weapons when you said

    22          they were trying to transfer them?

    23      A.  I think all sides involved in a war have an interest in

    24          controlling weapons.

    25      Q.  So we can all agree that the JNA had a strategic

Page 907

     1          interest in this area; is that correct, Ms Calic, to

     2          keep intact the military industry, to keep the weapons?

     3      A.  The report which you quoted so many times in relation

     4          with the distribution of weapons to Serbs indicates on

     5          the contrary that they were trying to leave this area,

     6          and that they were trying to take all the weapons with

     7          them, and they simply did not manage to pull out,

     8          because they felt surrounded by Muslim and Croat forces.

     9      Q.  It means that they did not leave in a disinterested

    10          manner without attempting to save the military

    11          facilities and the TO weapons; is that correct?

    12      A.  Well, I do not know.  This quoted report indicates that

    13          the JNA apparently was trying to transfer these weapons,

    14          to pull out personnel.  Personnel was not very high in

    15          numbers.  There were maybe 50, 60, maybe 80 JNA persons

    16          in this area.  This is not a big number, and the very

    17          same report also says very clearly: "We are trying to

    18          pull out.  We are trying to transfer weapons.  We do not

    19          manage because there are so many Muslim and Croat armed

    20          forces around."

    21      Q.  Thank you very much.  Now I am going to ask some

    22          questions with regard to the questions asked by my

    23          predecessor, where you did not supply detailed answers.

    24          You said that the ethnic map of Bosnia-Herzegovina was

    25          made on the basis of the Institute for Statistical Data?

Page 908

     1      A.  Yes.

     2      Q.  These were not the data of the Institute for Statistics

     3          of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

     4      A.  Those were the statistical data of the Bosnian

     5          statistical service in Sarajevo, the 1991 population

     6          census.

     7      Q.  If I remember correctly, you stated on Friday that you

     8          wanted the report from the Institute for Statistics of

     9          Bosnia-Herzegovina and that that report was not

    10          submitted to you; is that correct?

    11      A.  No, this is not correct.  I was asking for the municipal

    12          election results and these were not submitted to me.  I

    13          had to provide them through other channels, through the

    14          OSC office in Sarajevo.  As for the population census, I

    15          managed to find them.

    16      Q.  The map that you presented here during the

    17          examination-in-chief and the cross-examination depicting

    18          the ethnic structure of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is the

    19          map that I hold now in my hands; is that correct?

    20      A.  Yes, this is correct.

    21      Q.  This map does not correspond to the data existing in the

    22          Institute for Statistics of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Ms

    23          Calic; is that correct?

    24      A.  It cannot be, because the municipalitites were so mixed,

    25          the villages were so mixed, if I had to indicate each

Page 909

     1          and every single nation and nationality in each and

     2          every single village, we would not understand this map

     3          any more.  I was trying to explain that this is just a

     4          way to reduce a very complex ethnic situation in an

     5          understandable way.  I would have nothing against if you

     6          could present a better map, ethnic map.  It might be

     7          helpful if you could, and I think we could easily agree

     8          on having another map.

     9      Q.  The colours indicated here on this map refer to areas

    10          where one ethnic group was in the majority, where its

    11          percentage was above 50; is that correct?

    12      A.  No.  It also refers to relative majority, not only to

    13          more than 50 per cent majorities; relative majorities,

    14          which might then be 40 per cent in some instances.

    15      Q.  So this was not made according to the formula that this

    16          depicts the absolute majority; is that so?

    17      A.  No.  No.  Yes.

    18      Q.  In the Bijeljina municipality Ms Calic do you know the

    19          percentage of Serbs in the overall population?

    20      A.  I have to check this on the -- in the statistical data.

    21      Q.  They were not in the absolute majority?

    22      A.  The Serbs?  I just pointed out on this map you can also

    23          find relative majorities.  I have to check the exact

    24          numbers.  There were 109 municipalitites.  I do not know

    25          them all by heart.

Page 910

     1      Q.  All right.  Thank you.  Your Honour, on Friday I tried

     2          to show to the witness a document but since it was not

     3          in a language which is one of the working languages of

     4          the Tribunal, I had it translated on Friday.  I checked

     5          this morning with the Registry, with Mr Beresford, and I

     6          was told that the document has not been translated yet.

     7          After I get this document and after your perusal of this

     8          document, I would like to ask some questions in the

     9          cross-examination of this witness, but now before that I

    10          have another set of questions, which would then conclude

    11          my cross-examination?

    12      MR OSTBERG:  Your Honour, for your information, I can tell

    13          you that we have a translation into English of this

    14          document, which the defence lawyer has not so far got a

    15          translation of.  This has been done in our investigation

    16          and there it is, this document.  So if you want to have

    17          it, so I can support you with it.

    18      MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation):   I would be grateful.  Do

    19          you have the same document?

    20      MR OSTBERG:   Exactly.  Show it to ...

    21      A.  I have it.

    22      MR OSTBERG:  You got it also?

    23      A.  Yes, I got it.

    24      JUDGE JAN:   Do not forget to exhibit it after your

    25          cross-examination is over because you are going to

Page 911

     1          question her.

     2      MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation):   No, I will not forget.

     3          Thank you for reminding me, your Honour.

     4      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   This is the English translation of the

     5          document you showed to the witness, is it?

     6      MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation):   Yes.  I believe that the

     7          witness has it in front of her now?

     8      A.  That is correct.

     9      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Do you want to use it now?

    10      MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation):   I would like to use it

    11          now.

    12      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   You can do so.

    13      MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation):   Decision number 28/92 of

    14          22nd March 1992.  It is the Decision of the Konjic

    15          Municipality Serbian Assembly; is that right?

    16      A.  Yes.

    17      Q. This is the decision on the proclamation of parts of the

    18          territory being exclusively Serb?

    19      A.  This is a declaration in Serbian territories where the

    20          Serb population represents more than 51 per cent of the

    21          population and other areas where Serbs are a minority

    22          population, less than 50 per cent.

    23      Q.  So this is a Decision that was passed pursuant to the

    24          Decision on the verification of the proclaimed Serbian

    25          autonomous provinces in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Article 1,

Page 912

     1          paragraph 3; is that so?

     2      A.  It is not indicated in this document.  The document

     3          refers to the constitution of the Serbian Republic of

     4          Bosnia.

     5      Q.  They also refer to the willingness of the Serbian

     6          population in the Konjic municipality that they

     7          expressed?

     8      A.  Yes.

     9      Q.  This Decision is not in contravention with the Decision

    10          on the verification of the proclamation of the Serbian

    11          autonomous provinces in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    12      A.  You say it is not.

    13      Q.  It is not legally contradictory to that Decision.  I am

    14          not now referring the constitution -- whether this

    15          Decision is constitutional or not, but this Decision

    16          that you have in front of you is not in contradiction

    17          with the Decision on the verification of the proclaimed

    18          Serbian autonomous regions in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is

    19          that so?  Let me remind you that paragraph 3 states that

    20          parts of other municipalitites in this region may also

    21          be a part of the Serbian autonomous region in Bosnia; is

    22          that so?

    23      A.  If you put it that way, yes, but it is difficult to

    24          argue in legal terms, because all these Decisions have

    25          been declared unconstitutional and unlegal, so it's a bit

Page 913

     1          difficult, but it is perfectly in line with what the

     2          Serbs were doing in other areas before.

     3      Q.  I would now like to go back to this map that I hold in

     4          my hands.  Is this the map that you presented before

     5          this Trial Chamber as attachment number 41?

     6      A.  Yes.

     7      Q.  Indicated in red on this map are places in which Serbs

     8          are in the majority; is that so?

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  As we can see here, the number of those places, of those

    11          villages is ten on this map; is that so?

    12      A.  Yes.

    13      Q.  And in the Decision on Serbian territories based on the

    14          ethnic and geographical principle, where Serbs are in

    15          the majority over 51 per cent, 16 settlements were

    16          proclaimed as such; is that correct?

    17      A.  This is correct.

    18      Q.  So 6 settlements that were proclaimed as exclusively

    19          Serbian in this decision are not locations in which

    20          Serbs are in the majority in the population?

    21      A.  Could you name one?

    22      Q.  One name -- well, if you have 10 here and 16 there,

    23          there is a discrepancy, 6 settlements, and these 6

    24          settlements are the places in which Serbs were not in

    25          the majority.  I will now give you a few names?

Page 914

     1      A.  I am just not sure whether the map is entirely complete

     2          and whether all the very small villages are as indicated

     3          just for reasons to make -- for practical reasons.  So

     4          if you could name one which is a concrete, then it would

     5          be easier for me to follow your question.

     6      Q.  I will give you a name.  The village of Bijela.  Please

     7          have a look at the map.  It is indicated on the map?

     8      A.  Yes.

     9      Q.  It is indicated as a place where there is no ethnic

    10          majority?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      Q.  A Decision on Serbian territories, the village of Bijela

    13          was proclaimed as a location in which Serbs are in the

    14          majority; is that so?

    15      A.  Yes.

    16      Q.  I would further like to ask in paragraph 2 of the

    17          decision on Serbian territories, using the principle of

    18          property in which Serbs are in the minority, in other

    19          words in locations where Serbs -- the Serbian population

    20          is less than 50 per cent, 27 villages and settlements

    21          were proclaimed as such; is that correct?

    22      A.  Yes.

    23      JUDGE JAN:   But we already have a list of the areas which

    24          the Republika Srpska was claiming to be part of its

    25          territory.  The constitution is before us.  So I do not

Page 915

     1          know really that it is necessary to go into this.  We already

     2          have the detailed list.  I think one of the annexures

     3          indicates the areas which the new Republic, so-called

     4          Republic, was claiming to be its own territory.  I can

     5          show it to you, if you want:  probably the problem

     6          occurred because in the coloured map you used the colour

     7          green a little more liberally and the colour purple less

     8          -- you use it less, which shows that all of Bosnia is a majority

     9          Muslim province.  It shows that is the Serbs were really a

    10          majority, if you look at the colours of that map?

    11      A.  You are referring now to the Yugoslav map?

    12      JUDGE JAN:   No, the map of Bosnia right in the beginning.

    13          I think it is annexure 3.

    14      MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation):   Ms Calic, the village of

    15          Dzepi was marked on your map as a village in which

    16          Muslims were in the absolute majority?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  In paragraph 2 of the Decision I quote:  the Serbian

    19          people proclaimed as their territory the territory in

    20          which Serbs were in the minority; is that so?

    21      A.  I really don't know, because in this document they say

    22          they had attached a map with the exact borders of Serb

    23          municipalitites.  So I understood that they actually

    24          claimed parts of these areas where Serbs were in a

    25          minority or where they had less than 50 per cent.

Page 916

     1          Unfortunately the map, the ethnic map, is not attached

     2          to this document, and it would be much easier to argue

     3          about this or to interpret this document if we had

     4          actually this map.  I believe only parts of these 27

     5          Serb-inhabited areas were meant to be part of the Serb

     6          territory, but I am, of course, not sure, because I have

     7          not seen this map.

     8      Q.  I have not seen such a map.  The village of Glavaticevo

     9          was a village in which Muslims were in the absolute

    10          majority; is that so?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      Q.  The village of Glavaticevo is listed under 24 and it was

    13          proclaimed as an exclusively Serbian territory?

    14      A.  No, I think this is not correct, because we have not

    15          seen the map.  It can also be that only parts of this

    16          Glavaticevo were meant to become parts of the Serb

    17          territory.  We simply do not know, because in the last

    18          paragraph of this document they say that there would be

    19          an ethnic map in which the delineated areas based on the

    20          ownership, geographic principle are drawn into.  So we

    21          haven't got this map unfortunately.

    22      Q.  The village of Grusca is also on the map that you

    23          presented here, and it was mapped as the village in

    24          which the Muslims were in the absolute majority?

    25      A.  Yes.

Page 917

     1      Q.  The village of Grusca is listed under 26 and proclaimed

     2          as Serbian territory according to the ownership

     3          principle, and Serbs were in the minority there.  They

     4          had less than 50 per cent of the population?

     5      A.  You see, we have again the same principle -- same

     6          problem, because under (2) it is indicated that these

     7          areas are areas where the Serbs are a minority

     8          population, less than 50 per cent, and there would be a

     9          map attached showing which areas exactly from these

    10          villages and areas would be considered to be Serb.  So

    11          as we haven't got this map, I really cannot say whether

    12          they were claiming the entire or only part of this

    13          village.  So I am afraid ...

    14      Q.  The village of Podorasac is also a village in which

    15          Muslims were in the absolute majority according to your

    16          map, Ms Calic?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  The village of Podorasac was proclaimed as Serbian

    19          territory according to the ownership principle and Serbs

    20          were in a minority there, under 50 per cent of the

    21          population, and it is listed under number 17?

    22      A.  But maybe it was only part.  I don't know.  It appears

    23          that it was only part of this, you see.

    24      Q.  In the decision in paragraph 2 of the decision, it does

    25          not say anything about parts of these villages being

Page 918

     1          proclaimed; is that correct?

     2      A.  Well, it says that there would be a map attached to this

     3          document showing the exact boundaries of the Serb

     4          territories.  Unfortunately this map is not attached to

     5          this document, so we don't know, and I also believe that

     6          -- well, I don't believe anything, but I would like to

     7          see the map and then I could answer these questions.

     8      Q.  Yes, but you did not answer my question.  I said that in

     9          paragraph 2 it is not said that only parts of these

    10          villages would be proclaimed as exclusively Serbian

    11          territories; is that so?  Please read the text in

    12          paragraph 2 carefully.

    13      A.  There is a hint in paragraph 3.  It is in the English

    14          translation.  It is the delineated areas based on the

    15          ownership geographic principle, that is the ownership

    16          principle as drawn in the map of the Konjic municipality

    17          which is enclosed with this Decision.

    18                Unfortunately this ethnic map is not enclosed with

    19          this Decision, so I don't know.

    20      Q.  I am just now referring to paragraph 2 of the decision.

    21          It does not say anywhere that these villages are joining

    22          the Serbian territory and being proclaimed as such only

    23          partially, and you refer to paragraph 3.  I am not

    24          asking you anything in relation to paragraph 3.  I

    25          concentrate on paragraph 2 solely?

Page 919

     1      A.  But I have to read the whole document.  I have to

     2          understand it as a whole.  I cannot just pull out one

     3          paragraph and then not read the others.  I read the

     4          entire document and this is what my impression is.  My

     5          impression is there should be a map and the map is

     6          important to understand this decision.  Without the map

     7          you cannot fully interpret this, or not maybe correctly

     8          interpret this document.  Maybe you are right, but maybe

     9          you are not.  I simply do not know.

    10      Q.  Thank you very much for your answer.  Buturovic Polje is

    11          a village in which Croats were in the absolute majority

    12          according to your map; correct?

    13      A.  Yes.

    14      Q.  Buturovic Polje was proclaimed as Serbian territory

    15          according to the ownership principle and Serbs were in a

    16          minority there, less than 51 per cent, and that is

    17          listed under number 6; correct?

    18      A.  Yes.

    19      Q.  Would the ethnic map -- could the ethnic map be broader

    20          than this territory, just like your map number 3?

    21      A.  Sorry?  I did not understand the question.

    22      Q.  You said a minute ago that it would be very hard, indeed

    23          impossible, to make a precise ethnic map of

    24          Bosnia-Herzegovina due to the mixture of the populations

    25          who lived in Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

Page 920

     1      A.  Yes.

     2      Q.  Does this also refer to the municipality of Konjic as

     3          regards the ethnic composition that you marked here on

     4          your map?

     5      A.  Absolutely.

     6      Q.  This means that it was impossible to draw up such a map

     7          in the context that you spoke of before so that only

     8          parts of the villages referred to in paragraph 2 of the

     9          Decision on the proclamation of Serbian territories

    10          would be taken into account; correct?

    11      A.  I think I do not -- did not understand correctly your

    12          question.

    13      Q.  It would mean that it would be impossible to create a

    14          map as presented under (3) if this map would only

    15          include parts of villages and settlements listed under

    16          (2); correct?

    17      A.  I think there would be a problem anyway because, you

    18          see, you have a problem with drawing maps only if you

    19          claim that majority having an absolute or a relative

    20          majority in a certain area means also that you should

    21          exercise power without letting participate the other

    22          nations.  Once you agree on the fact that power should

    23          be shared, there is no problem any more with these

    24          simplified maps.  That is why I cannot agree with your

    25          question.  Even if you would be able to be more precise

Page 921

     1          in drawing maps, it does not mean that one single

     2          nation, one single people, should exclusively exercise

     3          power in this area.

     4      Q.  This decision on the proclamation of Serbian territory

     5          based on the force of the Serbian people in

     6          Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

     7      A.  It is based on the constitution of the Serb Republic.

     8          At least, this is what is written on this document.

     9      Q.  The constitution which was declared invalid by the

    10          Constitutional Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

    11      A.  Correct.  Absolute correct.

    12      Q.  The Muslim people never declared any territories as

    13          being exclusively Muslims; correct?

    14      A.  No, they did not, as far as I know.

    15      Q.  You never heard about it; you never saw such a Decision

    16          in which the Muslim population proclaimed certain parts

    17          or portions of the Konjic municipality as exclusively

    18          their own?

    19      A.  No, I did not.  However, I saw reports and I saw

    20          documents in which Serbs and also Croats were

    21          complaining that they were not allowed to participate in

    22          an appropriate way in the decision-making bodies.  I

    23          also saw these documents.

    24      Q.  You saw documents in which the Croatian people

    25          proclaimed certain parts of the territory as exclusively

Page 922

     1          Croatian; correct?

     2      A.  Yes, exclusively.  They even conceded that other nations

     3          should participate.  I am not sure if this was an honest

     4          offer, but I saw these documents.  I showed them, I

     5          think.  I showed them and I have included them in this

     6          folder.

     7      Q.  Ms Calic, you said that in the beginning the war, the

     8          conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina, was on the one side

     9          between the armed forces of the territorial defence and

    10          the HVO, and on the other side the units of the Bosnian

    11          Serbs and the JNA; correct?

    12      A.  Yes.

    13      Q.  In 1992 and even now the Serbian population which used

    14          to live and which continues to live in

    15          Bosnia-Herzegovina are all the citizens of

    16          Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?  They have the status of

    17          the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

    18      A.  They were citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina and they were

    19          stressing the fact that they were also citizens of the

    20          Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

    21      Q.  You said that they were citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    22          Does that not mean that they do continue to be the

    23          citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

    24      A.  Well, this is a very difficult legal question, and the

    25          international experts spent quite a lot of time in

Page 923

     1          finding a solution for this, because before Yugoslavia

     2          broke apart people had two citizenships, republican,

     3          Bosnian, and then all-Yugoslav citizenship.  So you

     4          reach a point where Yugoslavia falls apart and one side

     5          says:  "You keep only your Bosnian citizenship"; and the

     6          other part claims:  "No, we also want to keep our

     7          Yugoslav citizenship."

     8                This was a matter of debate.  I am not able to say

     9          whether one or other solution was correct.  It was a

    10          matter of debate and a matter of concern for the

    11          international observers.  If you look now how it is

    12          regulated today under the Dayton Agreement, people are

    13          allowed to have dual citizenship.  So I simply do not

    14          know whether or not in 1992 the Serbs of Bosnia were

    15          correctly considered to be only citizens of Bosnia, or

    16          whether or not they were correctly considered to be also

    17          citizens of Yugoslavia.  I simply do not know.  This is

    18          a question for a lawyer.

    19      Q.  Since you quoted the Dayton Agreement, the Bosnian Serbs

    20          cannot travel abroad on the Serb Republic passort; they

    21          can travel on the Bosnia-Herzegovina passport; correct?

    22      A.  Yes.

    23      Q.  The beginning of the war in 1992 the citizenship of

    24          Bosnian Serbs as Bosnians was not controversial, and the

    25          citizenship of Yugoslavia was not negated; correct?  At

Page 924

     1          that time Bosnia was an internationally-recognised state

     2          as of 6th April 1992 by the European Community, on 7th

     3          April by the US and Croatia and shortly thereafter by a

     4          large number of states; correct?

     5      A.  It is correct that the country was recognised in April

     6          1992, but it is also true that on the contrary the

     7          question of citizenship was a matter of debate and it

     8          was contested, and the Serbs continued to claim that

     9          they wanted to continue to be citizens of Yugoslavia.

    10          So it was a matter of debate at least.

    11      Q.  The referendum that the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    12          organised was based on the recommendations of the

    13          international community; correct?

    14      A.  This is absolutely correct.

    15      Q.  The number of votes which made up the absolute majority,

    16          which was the basis for the proclamation of

    17          independence, was an expression of the will of the

    18          majority of the population of Bosnia-Herzegovina;

    19          correct?

    20      A.  Yes.  This gives me the opportunity to show you the

    21          exact figures of the referendum.  There was a question

    22          last week.  I got the exact figures, and if you allow

    23          me, I just want to show them.  Can I have the  ...

    24      JUDGE JAN:   It is not one of the documents included in

    25          this?

Page 925

     1      A.  No, I found it over the weekend, just, because there was

     2          this question about the exact figures, and we can see

     3          that from 64 per cent of valid voting papers there were

     4          99.44 per cent of voters in favour of independence while

     5          only 0.29 per cent voted against.  Then there were a

     6          minor number of spoiled voting papers.  The reason why I

     7          said we can assume that one-third of the population was,

     8          in fact, against independence is that there was a call

     9          for a boycott by the SDS, and there was also a so-called

    10          plebiscite by the Serbs a few months ago in which, on

    11          the other hand, the majority of Serbs expressed the will

    12          to remain in Yugoslavia.

    13                Of course this plebiscite has never been

    14          recognised by the international community, and we do not

    15          know the exact terms on which it was held.  What we know

    16          is that the Serbs then afterwards proclaimed that --

    17          declared that more than 1 million Serbs had voted during

    18          this plebiscite in favour of remaining in Yugoslavia.

    19          So this I cannot confirm.  I cannot confirm whether or

    20          not this referendum by the Serbs was correctly

    21          organised.

    22                This is just an indication to show to us that

    23          probably many Serbs were against independence.  They

    24          held their own plebiscite, and they did not want to

    25          participate in this one, because at this time they

Page 926

     1          contested already the legitimacy of Muslims and Croats

     2          deciding over the future of their country.  The SDS

     3          simply said: "We do not agree on everything you decide

     4          on the republican level, so we just boycott", and there

     5          was a corporate boycott.  So if you ask me if there was

     6          a majority vote in terms of numbers, yes.  In terms of

     7          having -- in terms of how many were against, we can

     8          assume maybe one third was against.  Maybe less but let

     9          us assume one third.

    10      MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation):   The international

    11          community recognised the results of the referendum in

    12          which the majority of the population of

    13          Bosnia-Herzegovina voted for a sovereign and independent

    14          Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

    15      A.  Correct.

    16      Q.  Ms Calic, in a number of UN resolutions the

    17          participation of the JNA has been characterised -- the

    18          JNA as well as the FRY -- has been characterised as

    19          foreign powers, and sanctions were imposed on this

    20          country which lasted for three or four years; is that

    21          correct?

    22      A.  Yes.

    23      Q.  Ms Calic, based on the international law in this

    24          situation when we have the Bosnian Serbs and the JNA on

    25          the one side, as well as the state of Yugoslavia, the

Page 927

     1          participation of the Bosnian Serbs in such war and

     2          aggression can be perceived as an armed rebellion;

     3          correct?

     4      A.  Let's say this is at least a matter of debate, and I

     5          think it is also a question for a lawyer, because, as I

     6          was pointing out many times, the Serbs believed that

     7          they were part of Yugoslavia, and they created the

     8          parallel institutions.  They created their army on the

     9          territory of Bosnia.  They created their state

    10          institutions.  So this is a very difficult question to

    11          be put to a lawyer -- yes, to a lawyer, I think.

    12      Q.  Your Honours, I would like to introduce the document

    13          that Ms Calic just presented and which she said that she

    14          had not used previously, and I would like it marked as

    15          evidence.  This is the number of people who had taken

    16          part in the referendum, and I would like to offer it in

    17          evidence.  I would also like to ask a question relating

    18          to this document.

    19                Has this document been submitted to the

    20          prosecution before?  It has, has it not, Ms Calic?

    21      A.  The document on the referendum, you mean?  Which

    22          document?

    23      Q.  What you showed earlier.  You said that you found this

    24          subsequently, that you had not included it before?

    25      A.  The referendum one?

Page 928

     1      Q.  Yes.  In other words, if I understood you correctly, you

     2          had shown it before?

     3      A.  Yes, yes.

     4      Q.  Very well.  Earlier you said that it would be a complex

     5          legal issue.  My question to you is: should Lugican

     6          Serbs in Germany ask for an exclusive Serbian territory

     7          and rule and would want to accede to other Serbs in

     8          Yugoslavia, the German authorities would treat it as an

     9          armed rebellion, would they not?

    10      A.  But the Serbs in Germany do not have German

    11          citizenship.  We cannot compare.  Sorry.  The migrants,

    12          the Serb migrants in Germany, they continue to have

    13          their respective Yugoslav or Croat or whatever

    14          citizenship.  Most of them are not German citizens.

    15      Q.  You may not have understood me, Ms Calic.  My question

    16          was the Lugican Serbs, which is a national minority

    17          living in Germany, they have been living there for tens

    18          and hundreds of years there.  I was referring to them.

    19          They have German citizenship, but ethnically they are of

    20          Serbian origin.  So if these Serbs wanted to proclaim

    21          certain territories where they live as Serbian and

    22          secede from Germany and accede to Yugoslavia, German

    23          State or authorities would consider that an armed rebellion;

    24          Correct?

    25      A.  Look, the German constitution is very much different

Page 929

     1          from the Bosnian and from the former Yugoslavian one,

     2          because Germany consists of one state nation, which are

     3          the Germans.  Then there are a number of minorities,

     4          which have certain minority rights, but these persons

     5          are not supposed to be constituent nations of Germany,

     6          whereas in Bosnia there were three constituent nations

     7          and in the constitution as well as many laws there was a

     8          principle implemented.

     9                This principle said: "Important decisions should

    10          be made with the consent of the three constituent

    11          nations."  So at least if one withdraws, if one is not

    12          consulted any more, if one decides not to participate

    13          any more, you have a problem as for the implementation

    14          of the constitution, as for the implementation of many

    15          laws.  In Germany the situation is, of course,

    16          different.

    17      Q.  Let me give you have another example.  If the Celts in

    18          Germany wanted to secede from Germany, people of Celtic

    19          origin, the German state would consider this as an armed

    20          rebellion; correct?

    21      A.  Well, I don't know.  We never got this problem, so ...

    22      Q.  I know that you had no such problems, but if you did

    23          have them, they would be treated as rebels; correct.  Go

    24          ahead, please.

    25      A.  If, for instance, Bavaria, which is one of the republics

Page 930

     1          of Germany, would decide to leave the country, then we

     2          might get a similar problem to the Yugoslav problem.  If

     3          we had one minority just trying to secede I don't know,

     4          because we never got this problem, and I think we will

     5          never get this problem.

     6      Q.  You are a historian.  If the Friesian people in the

     7          Netherlands wanted to secede and form their own state,

     8          would that not constitute an armed rebellion?

     9      MR OSTBERG:   Your Honour, I am sorry.  I cannot keep silent

    10          any longer.  These hypothetical questions are not to be

    11          asked to an expert on the former dissolution of

    12          Yugoslavia.

    13      MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation):   I will not ask further

    14          questions along these lines, but I left this for the

    15          end.  Your last name, "Calic", is a bit unusual for a

    16          German citizen; correct?

    17      A.  I don't know, because there are so many names.

    18      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Thank you very much, Mr Brackovic.  I

    19          think we’ve got carried on in this way for quite a long time  .  We will

    20          break now and reassemble at a quarter to 12.

    21      (11.25 am)

    22                               (Short break)

    23      (12.45 pm)

    24      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Mr Brackovic, frankly I have not been

    25          able to estimate the extent of your cross-examination

Page 931

     1          because I do not even though where you are going.  You

     2          know where you are going.  Will you be able to try to

     3          get it over within the longest or shortest possible

     4          time, please.  We have had the same thing over and over

     5          for so long.  So let us get to the end of it.

     6      MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation):   I think I will come to

     7          the close very soon, your Honours.

     8                Before I continue with the cross-examination, the

     9          defence would like to offer to the Trial Chamber in

    10          evidence the document that Ms Calic showed and explain

    11          the situation on the referendum, and the defence would

    12          like to use it as evidence, and is offering it to the

    13          Trial Chamber in evidence, and also the defence offered

    14          the document that has been translated into English as

    15          evidence as well, and so I would like to -- I would like

    16          the Trial Chamber to rule on this exhibit.  I would also

    17          like to mention that on Friday the document that was

    18          offered was marked as D-3/4.  So if you would please

    19          rule on this.  Thank you.

    20      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Very well.  Thank you.  I think you

    21          have distributed the document?  Have you distributed it

    22          already, because I have not seen any of them?

    23      MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation):   Does the Trial Chamber

    24          accept this exhibit, the document of Ms Calic and the

    25          document that the defence would like to offer in

Page 932

     1          evidence?

     2      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Well, I might have misunderstood you.

     3          I thought you said you had already produced the

     4          documents.  The document which you translated was your

     5          own document, not that of Dr Calic.  So it could not

     6          have been your own.  Although you can tender it through

     7          her, it is not a defence document.  If you have any

     8          other document which you think is relevant, you pass it

     9          on.  The prosecution will look at it.  They have no

    10          objections.  You can still take her through it.  If you

    11          follow that pattern in the documents in the proceedings

    12          having to be also marked as an exhibit.

    13      MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation):   I would like to request

    14          if -- with your permission I would like my colleague, Ms

    15          McMurrey, to explain this, because she is coming from a

    16          Common Law legal system, and she would be able to better

    17          explain how we are trying to tender this.  So would you

    18          allow Ms McMurrey to present this and say a few words?

    19      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Of course she can.

    20      MS McMURREY:   Thank you, your Honour.  We would like to

    21          offer two documents from Mr Brackovic's

    22          cross-examination into evidence.  They are both

    23          documents that came -- one came from the prosecutor

    24          himself.  It was the English translation of the document

    25          that Mr Brackovic had tried to introduce on Thursday.

Page 933

     1          So the prosecution is well aware of it.  They have had

     2          time to examine it, and we would like to have that

     3          document marked as defence exhibit and offer that into

     4          evidence.  Ms Calic was cross-examined from that

     5          document.

     6                The second document, of course, is the document

     7          that Ms Calic did not introduce into evidence as part of

     8          her package, which is the document that shows the

     9          figures and the breakdown on the vote in the referendum

    10          on March 1st.  We would also like to have that marked as

    11          defence exhibit.  She was cross-examined from it.  The

    12          prosecutor was well aware of it.  He has seen the

    13          document before today.  We would like to tender that to

    14          the court for evidence also.

    15      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Now let us be clear about this: was

    16          the document part of the whole package?

    17      MS McMURREY:   No, your Honour.

    18      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:  I mean, the document which you say is

    19          the second document.

    20      MS McMURREY:   Yes.

    21      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   It is not one of the documents in this

    22          package?

    23      MS McMURREY:   No,, your Honour, it is not.

    24      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   How did it become her own document.

    25      MS McMURREY:   She brought it after perusing through her

Page 934

     1          documents at the weekend to clarify some things.  We

     2          think it is important evidence for the court to review

     3          later.  We would like to offer it into evidence as a

     4          defence exhibit.  So we are offering two documents from

     5          this cross-examination.  We would like to have both

     6          admitted into evidence.

     7      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   That is perfectly proper.  You can

     8          tender them.

     9      MS McMURREY:   Thank you, your Honours.

    10      MR OSTBERG:   We have no objection to it, your Honours.

    11      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Where are the documents themselves?  I

    12          have seen only one.  The interpretation, I have seen

    13          that.  I have not seen the second one.

    14      MS McMURREY:   Your Honour, it was the one that was on the

    15          ELMO earlier.  It is the document showing the breakdown

    16          of the vote during the referendum on March 1st.  I think

    17          Ms Calic probably has it in her possession.  We need the

    18          usher to take it from Ms Calic and have it marked by Mr

    19          Roeland, please.

    20      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Please, let us get it.

    21      THE REGISTRAR:   These documents will be document D-3/4 for

    22          the Declaration and D4/4 for the document on the

    23          referendum.

    24      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Thank you very much.

    25      MS McMURREY:   Thank you, your Honours.

Page 935

     1      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   You can carry on.

     2      MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation):   I would only like to

     3          pose several questions which I would like to sum up.

     4          There are only three or four of them, and that would

     5          complete my cross-examination.

     6                Ms Calic, the Konjic municipality is part of

     7          Bosnia-Herzegovina which has been proclaimed an

     8          independent and sovereign state; correct?

     9      A.  Absolutely.

    10      Q.  The state of Bosnia-Herzegovina is a common state of all

    11          constituent people living in it; correct?

    12      A.  Correct.

    13      Q.  It is composed of two parts.  One is the Federation of

    14          Bosnia-Herzegovina and the other is Republika Srpska;

    15          correct?

    16      A.  Correct.

    17      Q.  The Konjic municipality is a multi-ethnic community;

    18          correct?  It consists of members of all three

    19          nationalities, with a majority Muslim population;

    20          correct?

    21      A.  Are you speaking of today?

    22      Q.  I am talking about the situation of May 1992?

    23      A.  Yes, correct.

    24      Q.  Pursuant to the Decision on the Serb territories, 28/92

    25          of 22nd March 1992, representatives of the Serbian

Page 936

     1          population wanted in an illegal way to separate out a

     2          part of the territory of the sovereign

     3          Bosnia-Herzegovina as their own territory, and they

     4          wanted at that time to accede to the Federal Republic of

     5          Yugoslavia at that point?

     6      A.  They set up their parallel state structures and they

     7          apparently wanted to be part of Yugoslavia.

     8      Q.  They wanted to make it part of Yugoslavia; in other

     9          words, they wanted it to be part of Yugoslavia; correct?

    10      A.  Yes.  In their words they wanted to remain in

    11          Yugoslavia.  This is how they would put it.

    12      Q.  Thank you, Ms Calic.  I would also like to thank the

    13          Trial Chamber.  My cross-examination is complete with

    14          respect to Ms Calic.

    15      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Thank you very much.

    16                     Cross-examination by MR GREAVES

    17      MR GREAVES:   May it please your Honour, on behalf of

    18          Mr Mucic I would like to ask just a few questions of

    19          Dr Calic, if I may, please.

    20                Dr Calic, I would like you to focus, please, for a

    21          moment on the period between spring of 1992 and winter

    22          of 1992 in the Konjic area.  The war began in the spring

    23          effectively?

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  The shooting?

Page 937

     1      A.  Yes.

     2      Q.  The consequences for the administration of the Konjic

     3          area was, as I understand what you have told us, the

     4          disintegration of the conventional peacetime civil lines

     5          of authority and military chains of command; is that

     6          right?

     7      A.  That is right.

     8      Q.  It is replaced by what is described as the War

     9          Presidency, which is an organisation brought together at

    10          very short notice?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      Q.  Would it be right to describe the period we are talking

    13          about as one which was to a large degree rather chaotic

    14          in terms of administration?

    15      A.  Chaotic -- I do not know whether it was chaotic in this

    16          sense.  I would describe -- maybe let us put it like

    17          this: this was a certain power vacuum.  There were laws,

    18          there were regulations, but there was some uncertainties

    19          and some doubts as to whether and as to which extent

    20          these laws and regulations were implemented on the

    21          ground.

    22      Q.  And indeed who, in fact, is exercising real power?

    23      A.  Yes.

    24      Q.  By that it may well be that those who are named as

    25          members of the War Presidency did not, in fact, wield de

Page 938

     1          facto power?

     2      A.  Maybe.  I do not know.  This is up to the witnesses to

     3          explain to the court.

     4      Q.  Absolutely.  I will come back to that aspect in a

     5          moment, if I may.  The situation you described to us is

     6          one which essentially exists on paper, and that is how

     7          you have been able to reach your conclusions, by

     8          examining, as it were, the records?

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  So the reality on the ground, and I think you have

    11          effectively conceded this, may well be very different

    12          from that which is portrayed by the paperwork?

    13      A.  Of course.

    14      Q.  Aside from those organisations which are recorded as

    15          existing on paper, there may well be other, for example,

    16          ad hoc groups that come together for very short periods,

    17          which exercise influence and authority?

    18      A.  Yes.

    19      Q.  Which are not documented?

    20      A.  Yes.

    21      Q.  And indeed any decision which on the face of it, on the

    22          face of the paperwork, is promulgated by the War

    23          Presidency may well have been promoted by some other

    24          group of influence within the Konjic area?

    25      A.  Yes.

Page 939

     1      Q.  Can you help me about this:  the paperwork from the

     2          Konjic municipality for that period that you have

     3          examined, would you describe it as extensive, in other

     4          words, a lot of it?

     5      A.  There was some of it.  I was unfortunately not able to

     6          get hold of all these documents.  I was trying since

     7          December last year.  Unfortunately none of these

     8          documents have been submitted to me.

     9      Q.  Yes, but those documents that you have been able to

    10          examine, would it be right to, as it were, categorise

    11          them as paperwork which records decisions of the

    12          municipality?

    13      A.  They were also decisions by the municipality.  There

    14          were also other documents.

    15      Q.  I was going give you some examples.  Documents recording

    16          the appointments of people to particular jobs?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  Some correspondence between the municipality and other

    19          parts of the country?

    20      A.  Yes.

    21      Q.  And internal correspondence?

    22      A.  Among others.

    23      Q.  And documents setting out policy?

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  Is this the reality: that you could assess from looking

Page 940

     1          at those documents, that, in fact, the bureaucracies,

     2          whatever the chaotic conditions, may have been, as in so

     3          many of these sorts of situations -- the bureaucracies

     4          carried on generating the paperwork; in other words the

     5          civil service side of it carried on working, generating

     6          the paperwork, recording decisions, recording

     7          appointments and that sort of thing?

     8      A.  There were some decisions in line with the laws and

     9          regulations.  There were others which appeared to me

    10          that they were made on an ad hoc basis.

    11      Q.  Yes.

    12      A.  It appeared also to me that there were different power

    13          centres present in this, emerging in this situation.  So

    14          as for administration, I mean administration is one part

    15          of the whole set-up.  It is not the entire.  There are

    16          other power centres, military, maybe non-military as

    17          well.

    18      Q.  Of course, Dr Calic, but the point I was putting to you

    19          is this, that whatever and whoever was running the show,

    20          the people whose duty it is to record the decisions

    21          continued to work and record those decisions and

    22          appointments and so on?

    23      A.  Yes.

    24      Q.  Yes.  Indeed, from the documents you have examined would

    25          you agree that there has been quite a high degree of

Page 941

     1          preservation of important documents?

     2      A.  Well, I don't know.  I think there must have been much

     3          more documents, much more than I was able to look at, I

     4          was able to get hold of.

     5      Q.  I am perfectly prepared to agree that.  You obviously

     6          have not seen the lot, but from what you have seen, a

     7          reasonable degree of information has been preserved?

     8      A.  Yes.  I don't know.

     9      Q.  Thank you.  Can I just finally ask you this: it is

    10          really in relation to your qualifications, if I may just

    11          return to that.  Could you just identify to the Tribunal

    12          the precise name of this think-tank for which you work?

    13      A.  It is Stiftung Wissenschaft und Politik; Research

    14          Institute for International Affairs would be the English

    15          translation.

    16      Q.  You took the next question out of my mouth, Dr Calic,

    17          and I am grateful to you for doing so.  Does it come to

    18          this:  your job is essentially the analysis of military

    19          defence and foreign intelligence for your masters?

    20      A.  No, not really.  We are independent researchers.  We are

    21          allowed to choose our subjects by our own and we are

    22          choosing also our sources by ourselves.  So I have, in

    23          fact, a broad variety of different sources which I use

    24          for my daily work.

    25      Q.  But do various German ministries come to you and ask for

Page 942

     1          your analysis of a particular situation?

     2      A.  This may happen, but it often happens that I choose by

     3          myself and I just try to identify important subjects and

     4          important developments and then make them attentive and

     5          try to draw the attention to certain developments.  So

     6          it is more or less that I by myself -- it is my task

     7          myself to assess the situation and then identify

     8          important issues on the ground.

     9      Q.  To whom do your reports normally go?

    10      A.  Our reports go to different addressees.  Some are the

    11          ministries.  It is the Chancellor's Office, but it is

    12          also Members of Parliament.  It is sometimes other

    13          universities, other scholars, other institutes.  It is

    14          sometimes the media.  It really depends on the subject

    15          and on the character of the report.  Not everything is

    16          for everybody, but ...

    17      Q.  Thank you, Dr Calic.  That is all I have to ask you.

    18      MS McMURREY:   Your Honours, I have one question before

    19          cross-examination of the defence is completed.  The

    20          Prosecution just passed out, while Mr Brackovic was

    21          finishing his cross-examination, some documents.  I do

    22          not know if it is their intention to use them now on

    23          re-direct examination, but if it is, I think everybody

    24          would like a opportunity to review these before we

    25          capitulate at this point.

Page 943

     1      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Let us hear the prosecution.  What

     2          document is that?

     3      MR OSTBERG:   These documents are produced to satisfy Madam

     4          Residovic for her remaining questions.  She had reserved

     5          the right after the review of the documents we have

     6          given to her, to continue her cross-examination.  So

     7          that is what we have produced these documents for, but

     8          at the end of it, we are going to tender them as

     9          evidence, together with the bundle we have before us.

    10      MS McMURREY:   That makes it clear for me.  Thank you.

    11      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   It is Mrs Residovic's intent to follow

    12          up the cross-examination?

    13      MR OSTBERG:   Yes.  If she does not use all of them, I will

    14          have them put to Dr Calic.

    15      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Then, Ms Residovic, it is up to you.

    16                Cross-examination by MRS RESIDOVIC (resumed)

    17      MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation):   Thank you, your Honour.

    18          I will now use my right, having received the documents

    19          from the prosecution, to ask some more questions of Ms

    20          Calic.

    21                Your Honour, Mr Ostberg, the representative of the

    22          Prosecutor, distributed five documents to us.  I think

    23          that these are the documents that were supposed to be

    24          the basis for the drafting of attachment 50 of the

    25          expert witness, and I would, therefore, ask you, if

Page 944

     1          these documents are not in the possession of the expert

     2          witness and the Trial Chamber, that these documents be

     3          distributed to you now in the English language, which

     4          would facilitate my asking these questions.

     5      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   They have not been distributed.  I do

     6          not know why they have not been.

     7      MR OSTBERG:   They will immediately be distributed, your

     8          Honour.

     9      MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation):   The defence has made

    10          copies.

    11      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   I know that the practice here is that

    12          all documents intended to be tendered are distributed

    13          prior to the date of tender.  So if you had that in

    14          mind, obviously you should have distributed them as you

    15          decided to send them to Ms Residovic.

    16      MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation):   Thank you very much.

    17                Good day, Ms Calic.  I would ask you to put on the

    18          ELMO your chart of the defence of Konjic, number 50.  My

    19          question -- that would make my questions easier to

    20          understand for all of us.  I can see the chart on the

    21          monitor.  Please allow me to remind you that on 19th

    22          March in the course of this trial, listed on pages 760

    23          and 761 of the transcript, I asked you of the sources on

    24          which you base your knowledge of Konjic, and you replied

    25          to me that unfortunately you only had certain documents

Page 945

     1          in your possession presented to you by the prosecutor,

     2          and that you missed some other documents pertaining to

     3          Konjic.  Do you remember that, Ms Calic?

     4      A.  I remember it slightly different.  I remember, and this

     5          is also what I want to repeat here, that I saw many,

     6          many, many documents, and I handed over -- I just made a

     7          choice of a few of them, which were the basis of this

     8          diagram, defence planning.  I saw many, many others

     9          supporting this diagram.  So this is just a few

    10          documents to show you the kind of documents I used.

    11                What I was then saying, moreover, is that

    12          unfortunately the respective authorities in Konjic and

    13          in Sarajevo were not able to provide me with some

    14          official documents from the Konjic municipality.  For

    15          instance, the local gazette of the War Presidency and so

    16          on, I have requested this.  I have not got them, and

    17          this is what I would have liked to see moreover, but I

    18          really think I had quite a lot of documents available to

    19          base this diagram on.

    20      Q.  Since in addition to your report you submitted to us a

    21          certain number of regulations in existence before the

    22          war, as well as regulations passed during the war

    23          pertaining to the defence, as far as I can remember, on

    24          Thursday, 20th March I asked you whether these were the

    25          only documents, and the response was that you also had

Page 946

     1          some other documents in mind, and now I ask you, since

     2          you see now that the prosecutor submitted five documents

     3          to us, are these the documents that you had in mind when

     4          you made this scheme?

     5      A.  I had these as well as many, many other documents in

     6          mind when I drew this diagram.  This is just a selection

     7          of a few of the documents which all together confirmed

     8          this view or support this view.

     9      Q.  In other words, Ms Calic, despite the fact that we asked

    10          you to submit all the documents to us, the prosecutor

    11          submitted only a selection of the documents, of your

    12          documents?

    13      A.  I submitted only a selection of these documents, because

    14          they are something like maybe several hundreds, and

    15          these documents I believe will be introduced during the

    16          trial.  They will be introduced by other witnesses.  I

    17          just wanted to present you with a selection of documents

    18          which are representative for many other documents which

    19          I have seen.

    20      Q.  Ms Calic, I remember very clearly what my request was.

    21          I wanted to have all your documents pertaining to the

    22          drawing-up of this chart, which would enable me to

    23          evaluate whether this chart was based on certain

    24          regulations or documents that would be relevant to the

    25          making of this chart.  Are you able to provide us with

Page 947

     1          all those documents?

     2      A.  I think that the documents which I selected are maybe

     3          enough to explain this diagram.  If not, I can, of

     4          course, find in addition more documents supporting it.

     5      Q.  Before I start asking you some questions, I would like

     6          to ask you, Ms Calic, if you could just clarify to me

     7          what this chart means, the chart that forms the

     8          attachment number 50?

     9      A.  Yes, I will.  So first I draw the War Presidency.  I

    10          knew from former regulations and law that this

    11          institution existed.  Then I saw a number of documents

    12          signed by representatives from the War Presidency.  So I

    13          concluded there was a War Presidency in Konjic.  So I

    14          assumed there is a War Presidency.

    15                Then I knew there was -- separate from this War

    16          Presidency there was a military structure.  I knew this

    17          also from the official gazettes that there was at least

    18          a separate military structure existing.  I saw numerous

    19          documents coming from the Konjic municipality which were

    20          signed either by the HVO, the Croat Army, or by the TO

    21          or the Bosnian Army, which represented at this time the

    22          Muslim defence forces.

    23                I knew also that there was a law and -- there was

    24          a regulation in April and then a law in May saying that

    25          all defence forces should be unified, but I knew from

Page 948

     1          what was going on on the ground that this did not

     2          succeed entirely, but they remained two separate

     3          structures, a Croat and a TO.  So I knew moreover that

     4          there was a general policy at this time of acting

     5          together, so the Croat and the Muslim defence forces

     6          usually acted together, but they did not act as a

     7          unified force.  They acted by making decisions

     8          together.

     9                I presented some documents which show that some of

    10          the orders or some of the decisions taken were actually

    11          signed by both commanders, the commanders of the HVO and

    12          the commander of the TO.  So I drew up the two different

    13          structures and I linked them, because I knew many

    14          decisions were taken jointly, and then there was also

    15          even a joint staff established.  I submitted documents

    16          from which we can see that they signed a joint staff

    17          TO/HVO.

    18                Furthermore, I found a document from May, which is

    19          also included in this package, which showed me there was

    20          a coordinating instance.  This was the co-ordinator here

    21          in the middle.  Now, I do not know of any law or

    22          regulation defining what a co-ordinator exactly is. I

    23          assume there is no such law which would define the role

    24          of a co-ordinator, but I knew from this very interesting

    25          document of the JNA and from everything which I knew

Page 949

     1          before about all people's defence that such functions

     2          existed, and please allow me to put this document again

     3          here on the ELMO.

     4                It shows us how all people's defence was perceived

     5          at this time.  It speaks about shared responsibilities.

     6          It speaks about coordination; it speaks about people --

     7          that people should be inventive in how they organised

     8          their defence, that they should take their own decisions

     9          when they organised defence, especially in situations

    10          where they cannot get orders from their superiors, and I

    11          knew that this was the case in Konjic at this time.

    12                Sarajevo was besieged and the Mostar headquarters

    13          was not established at this time.  So this is how I drew

    14          this diagram.  I, of course, could not fully understand

    15          from the documentation which tasks all these structures

    16          and institutions performed at that time.  I could not

    17          entirely understand who the persons were involved, who

    18          actually participated, who was a member.  I knew from

    19          the documentations that many regulations which existed

    20          on paper were simply not implemented.  If you allow me,

    21          I can show you another document, which supports this

    22          view, especially as for the War Presidency.

    23      Q.  Ms Calic, for the time being I am not interested in that

    24          document.  It is possible that my further questions

    25          pertaining to this chart will make you produce this

Page 950

     1          document, so please answer.  In your chart you mean that

     2          this co-ordinator has some aspects of superiority as to

     3          the structures depicted here; is that correct?

     4      A.  No.  This is not correct.  I did not say that there was

     5          a subordinate position of any of these structures.  On

     6          the contrary, I assumed that they were more or less

     7          acting together and there was no formal chain of

     8          subordination.  As also indicated in this JNA secret

     9          document, because the general idea of how defence should

    10          be planned in certain instances was exactly working

    11          together and not necessarily giving orders one to the

    12          other.  So I knew the situation in Konjic municipality

    13          in May 1992 more as one where several actors acted

    14          together and where they had contacts and made decisions

    15          jointly, and where everybody participated as he or she

    16          could.

    17      Q.  In other words, according to your chart, the

    18          co-ordinator is not a function that is superior to the

    19          organs, to the bodies depicted on your chart?

    20      A.  I cannot say what exactly the functions of this

    21          co-ordinator were.  I only know there was a

    22          co-ordinator.  I do not know which functions he exactly

    23          performed.

    24      JUDGE JAN:   Excuse me for a minute.  From the document I

    25          have before me of 18th May it seems that a coordinator

Page 951

     1          was a link between the War Presidency and the defence

     2          forces?

     3      A.  Yes.

     4      JUDGE JAN:   Not that it was a link between two different

     5          warring groups.  He is a co-ordinator between the War

     6          Presidency and the defence forces?

     7      A.  Yes.

     8      JUDGE JAN:   Not a link between the two warring forces, one

     9          HVO and one TO?

    10      A.  No, but the problem is that the idea was to have one

    11          unified force.  This was how it should have been, but in

    12          practice it does not function like this, but they made

    13          their decisions separately.  So the HVO, the Croat

    14          forces, had their separate headquarters, and the Bosnian

    15          Army had its separate headquarters.  They took many,

    16          many decisions jointly and they did many -- they took

    17          many decisions jointly, but some they did not.  So there

    18          was a certain need also to coordinate between the two

    19          rival military institutions.

    20      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   I hope counsel understands what the

    21          witness was saying.

    22      MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation):   I do understand.  I will

    23          now go back to the documents that I asked in

    24          clarification of this chart.  Your chart is entitled

    25          "The Defence of Konjic in May 1992"?

Page 952

     1      A.  Uh-huh.

     2      Q.  Is that correct?

     3      A.  Yes.

     4      Q.  In addition to the regulations in your file, you also

     5          submitted to us a document from the Municipal Assembly

     6          of the Konjic of 12th April 1992.  Can we please see

     7          that document?  This document is, in fact, a letter to

     8          the Republic of Croatia, written by the crisis staff of

     9          some municipalitites, signed by Dr Rusmir

    10          Hadzihuseinovic; is that correct?

    11      A.  Correct.

    12      Q.  It is correct that this letter does not speak of a

    13          co-ordinator, neither does it refer to any structures in

    14          the Konjic municipality; is that correct?

    15      A.  It is of April, as you were saying yourself, and the

    16          instance of the co-ordinator was introduced in May, as

    17          far as I can see from the documents I revised.  This

    18          document was introduced to show before that there were

    19          also efforts to organise defence, that there was a

    20          crisis staff.  I referred to this the other day.  This

    21          is to support my view that there was a crisis staff

    22          before May.

    23      Q.  Document number 50 does not refer to "crisis staff".  It

    24          refers to "co-ordinator", so, please, I would like you

    25          to agree with me that the document submitted to us dated

Page 953

     1          on that date is not -- cannot be used as a basis for the

     2          chart that concerns May 1992 and the role of the

     3          co-ordinator?

     4      A.  The selection of documents which I made was done that

     5          way that I can show different institutions and different

     6          structures, civilian and military structures, in the

     7          Konjic municipality after the outbreak of the war.  I

     8          mentioned during my explanation several times crisis

     9          staffs, and I submitted this document just to show that

    10          there was a crisis staff in April 1992.  It is not part

    11          of this diagram because this reflects the situation in

    12          May and not in April.

    13      Q.  So I repeat: the document that you submitted, regardless

    14          of what other issue it refers to, cannot be used as the

    15          basis for the chart for May 1992 and for the role of the

    16          co-ordinator; is that so?

    17                Another document that you also submitted to us is

    18          entitled -- is dated 2nd May 1992, and the title is

    19          "Special Authorisation Granted by the War Presidency of

    20          the Konjic Municipality Pursuant to the Decision of the

    21          War Presidency on the Equipping, Obtaining and

    22          Distribution of Military Equipment", authorising

    23          Mr Zejnil Delalic to conduct various negotiations, enter

    24          into agreements, and for other matters pertaining to

    25          logistics or in other words, as the title says, for

Page 954

     1          equipping, purchase and distribution of military

     2          equipment; is that correct?

     3      A.  Yes.

     4      Q.  Can we then agree that this document does not pertain to

     5          military structures in the municipality of Konjic and

     6          that it does not speak to the role of the co-ordinator

     7          as presented on your chart?

     8      A.  Can I have the document on the screen, please?  It shows

     9          us that there was a War Presidency and it shows us there

    10          were separate military structures and it shows us some

    11          decisions were taken jointly.

    12      Q.  Yes, but this has nothing to do with your chart, because

    13          this decision refers to the decision of the War

    14          Presidency and the Commander of the TO staff, so it has

    15          nothing to do with the structure depicted on your

    16          chart.  It refers to other issues that happened, events

    17          that happened in Konjic but not to the chart.  Can we

    18          agree on that?

    19      A.  You see, making an analysis means you gather

    20          information, different information you compile, and then

    21          you draw your conclusions.  You will not find one

    22          document which explains you this diagram, but on the

    23          contrary what an analyst is supposed to do is to

    24          synthesise different kinds of information and different

    25          documents, and this is what I was trying to do.  So

Page 955

     1          these documents should be seen together.  They form --

     2          they give us the context, and I think this document is

     3          very interesting, because it shows us how civilian and

     4          military structures were acting together and how they

     5          were taking joint decisions.  I think it is useful to

     6          have it on record and especially if you try to

     7          understand the structures in this area at this time.

     8      Q.  Ms Calic, I think that it is useful to bear many

     9          documents in mind, but this is not the document on the

    10          basis on which you can produce a chart that you

    11          submitted to us under number 50?

    12      A.  It gives us some elements of this diagram.  There are

    13          other documents providing other elements.  Altogether

    14          they allow me to draw up such a diagram.  This is how I

    15          proceeded.

    16      Q.  Ms Calic, I requested very precisely for you to produce

    17          the basis, the documents, that you used as the basis for

    18          determining the role of the co-ordinator and the chart

    19          that you made here, and it is obvious, since we all have

    20          the documents in front of us, that this document, dated

    21          April, and the document dated 2nd May 1992, do not refer

    22          to the matter presented in the chart.  To what extent

    23          they can be used in some other context I will not talk

    24          about that now, but I think that as for the role of the

    25          co-ordinator and the relations between various bodies,

Page 956

     1          that this document of 2nd May does not say anything

     2          about it.  Do you agree with me?

     3      A.  The document does not mention the function of

     4          co-ordinator.  That is why I submitted a third document,

     5          which explicitly mentioned the role of a co-ordinator.

     6          This earlier document shows us that there was a War

     7          Presidency and that there was TO military structure or

     8          Bosnian Army military structure, and these two

     9          structures in situations were acting together, and that

    10          they were discussing certain issues, and that they were

    11          also taking joint decisions.  I do not claim that they

    12          always acted together, but they also may have in certain

    13          instances acted together.

    14      Q.  Ms Calic, we were provided documents on 4th June

    15          appointing certain persons by the HVO to serve as a

    16          liaison with the prisoners, and of May 22nd 1992 the

    17          authority to compensate the goods in the distribution

    18          centre of Konjic with respect to sugar; is that correct?

    19      A.  Yes.

    20      Q.  Do you agree that none of these decisions mention the

    21          co-ordinator, nor does it address the position of

    22          co-ordinator as presented in your chart?

    23      A.  No, but they speak of a joint staff, and I was trying to

    24          explain several times that there was a joint staff at a

    25          certain time, and this is a document giving evidence

Page 957

     1          that there was a joint staff between Croat and Muslim

     2          defence forces.

     3                If you put it on the screen, we can then perfectly

     4          see headquarters of the joint armed forces and then you

     5          see the two structures, the Territorial Defence

     6          headquarters and the Croatian Defence Council.  This is

     7          what I wanted to show you.  It is not the only document

     8          which gives evidence for this.  There are many, many

     9          others.  This is just an example why I claim that there

    10          were two separated military structures, a Croat and a

    11          Muslim-dominated, but they were acting together, as we

    12          can see from this document.  This is why I found it

    13          interesting.

    14      JUDGE JAN:   Which is this document?

    15      A.  It is document from headquarters of the joint armed

    16          forces.  It is of 4th -- Konjic, 4th June 1992.  The

    17          document itself is for what I was trying to explain of

    18          minor importance.  What they say in this -- for me it

    19          was important to show there were common decisions and

    20          there was a joint staff, joint armed forces between the

    21          Croats and the Muslims, however indicating clearly they

    22          were separated institutions, even if they were acting

    23          together, and this was part of my diagram here.  Two

    24          separate structures but linked and acting together.

    25      JUDGE JAN:   Which is this document?  I have not seen it.

Page 958

     1      A.  You have not seen it?  It should be in the ... has it a

     2          number?  It is "Headquarters of Joint Armed Forces", 4th

     3          June 1992?

     4      MR OSTBERG:   The fifth document in the stack that was

     5          brought to your Honours.

     6      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   The last document on the English

     7          translation?

     8      MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation):   Number 18/92, your

     9          Honours, which was the document of 4th June.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Yes, 4th June.  That is not directed

    11          to any particular person, just a general authorisation.

    12      MR OSTBERG:   Yes, indeed, but -- yes.  I ask again Dr Calic

    13          to explain that?

    14      A.  I chose this document to support the view that there

    15          were -- though there was one -- though there was a law

    16          saying there should be one unified army, in fact there

    17          were two different military structures, a

    18          Muslim-dominated one and a Croat-dominated one, the HVO

    19          and the BH army.  You see on this document the

    20          signatures of the two commanders, when they are given

    21          authorisation.  You see here: "Headquarters of the Joint

    22          Armed Forces".  However, you also see the names of the

    23          two headquarters of the two forces, the Croats and the

    24          Muslims.

    25                I submitted this document simply to support the

Page 959

     1          view that there were two military structures, a

     2          Croat-dominated and a Muslim one.  They were acting

     3          together at this time.  They have even had a joint

     4          staff.  This supported what I was trying to show on this

     5          side, on the military side, of my diagram, two

     6          structures being interlinked, having relations, taking

     7          joint decisions as of May 1992 and a part of June, and

     8          then it broke apart, but I can explain this later.

     9      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Now frankly I do not know what is the

    10          anxiety of Ms Residovic.  What is your real problem?

    11          What are you complaining about in the diagram?  That it

    12          does not show every function or it does not indicate who

    13          does what?  These are not issues you can find on a

    14          diagram of that nature.

    15      MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation):   Your Honour, I asked

    16          very precisely to be given the basis -- the documents

    17          based on which Ms Calic established the position of

    18          co-ordinator as represented in the chart.  Neither of

    19          these documents speaks of that.

    20      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Let that remain a criticism of her

    21          documents instead of pushing it too far.  That is a

    22          criticism, that it is faulty.

    23      JUDGE JAN:   It was essentially a link between the War

    24          Presidency and the defence forces.  As to what extent

    25          there was cooperation between the HVO and TO is a

Page 960

     1          question of fact, and she says sometimes it was and

     2          sometimes it was not.  She was not sure about it

     3          herself.

     4      MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation):   Your Honours, allow me

     5          to say that this chart as offered as one of the evidence

     6          materials and four documents that I have shown to Ms

     7          Calic cannot serve as a basis to explain the role of the

     8          co-ordinator, and the fifth document is of 11th July

     9          1992, and that also does not address this chart at all.

    10          Is that correct, Ms Calic?

    11      A.  You see, the headline of this diagram is not "The Role

    12          of the Co-ordinator in Konjic".  The headline of this

    13          diagram is "Defence Planning in Konjic Municipality".  I

    14          drew up this diagram to make a bit clearer how the

    15          structures were functioning at this time.  It is also

    16          submitted as a document which explains that there was,

    17          in fact, a co-ordinator.  It does not explain to us

    18          which functions he had but it explains to us that there

    19          was such a position of a co-ordinator, and this is why I

    20          also included this function in my diagram.  So this

    21          should explain us defence planning.  It should not

    22          explain to us exactly what the functions of this

    23          coordinating instance were.

    24      Q.  Ms Calic, you submitted the document 18/92 from 25th May

    25          where there are other functions of the provisional

Page 961

     1          staff; in other words, is your chart -- so the chart on

     2          the defence planning on Konjic municipality in 1992 is

     3          incomplete with regard to that based on the documents

     4          that you provided?

     5      A.  To which extent it is incomplete?  Can you please ... I

     6          did not get the argument.

     7      Q.  The document you submitted of 25th May talks about other

     8          institutions that also participate in decision-making.

     9          So based on that, your chart is incomplete?

    10      A.  But the document of 18th May 1992, which I put now here

    11          on the screen, under Article 2 says:

    12                "The co-ordinator" so I know there is a

    13          co-ordinator, "will be responsible for direct

    14          coordination between the defence forces of the Konjic

    15          municipality and the War Presidency", and this is, I

    16          hope, what I was drawing then in this diagram, a

    17          co-ordinator between the civilian and the military

    18          structures.  This is what I wanted to show.  I cannot

    19          see the deficiency, but maybe you can explain it to me.

    20      Q.  I will get to the document that you have just brought to

    21          our attention, but, Ms Calic, do you agree that that

    22          document does not speak about organising the defence, as

    23          you just stated now?

    24      A.  It is a function of coordination.  I was trying to

    25          explain that I do not know what exactly the functions of

Page 962

     1          this co-ordinator were.  So I did not pretend to know

     2          what exactly the functions of the co-ordinator were.

     3          Instead I put as a headline "Defence Planning".

     4          Apparently the function of the co-ordinator somehow did

     5          also fit into this system.  You see from this JNA

     6          document it becomes very clear, very clear that

     7          coordination is necessary.  So why should I doubt that

     8          there was such a coordination function if I see a

     9          document, a decision on appointing a person to be a

    10          co-ordinator.  This is completely in line with what I

    11          knew from before and what I also know from other areas.

    12      Q.  The submitted document of May 18th says that the

    13          co-ordinator will directly coordinate between the

    14          defence forces and the War Presidency; in other words,

    15          its role has been spelt out in Article 2?

    16      A.  Yes.

    17      Q.  Correct?

    18      A.  It says "coordination" but do I not know what

    19          coordination exactly means in this context.  This is why

    20          I put this line showing, you know -- it is not a fixed

    21          position within any military, civilian structure, as far

    22          as I have seen.  So it is a bit unclear, but what I know

    23          is the instance as such existed.  I do not know what

    24          exactly the functions were.

    25      Q.  Ms Calic, in your report and submitted documents you

Page 963

     1          also provided the decision on the establishment of the

     2          armed forces of Bosnia; correct?

     3      A.  Yes.

     4      Q.  This decision creates either unity or subordination of

     5          the HVO units; is that correct?

     6      A.  Yes.

     7      Q.  The HVO exists in the Konjic municipality?

     8      A.  Yes.

     9      Q.  In your chart is subordination of the HVO with its

    10          headquarters in Grude shown on your chart?

    11      A.  It is not and also the direct subordination of the

    12          Bosnian Army is not shown on the diagram.

    13      Q.  In other words, you did not present the complete chart

    14          of the Konjic defence because you did not show this

    15          level of subordination; correct?

    16      A.  I got the impression from many documents and from many

    17          reports and also witness statements which I read that at

    18          least some of these institutions took at this time their

    19          own decisions, and we cannot assume that all the

    20          decisions taken in Konjic were taken because there was

    21          an order coming from a high institution.  This is

    22          especially true for the Bosnian Army, but it may also be

    23          true for the HVO.

    24                I submitted some documents showing the signature

    25          of the local HVO Commander, and the local GO or Bosnian

Page 964

     1          Army Commander.  This shows us that they were making

     2          decisions in certain instances, on certain occasions.

     3      Q.  So we could conclude that it is an incomplete chart,

     4          because it does not show other aspects of relationship

     5          between different parts of the Konjic defence?

     6      A.  It shows, for instance, not how these

     7             institutions were linked to other municipalitites,

     8          which would be another very interesting aspect of all

     9          this.  The intention to draw this specific diagram was

    10          to concentrate on the situation in Konjic in May 1992,

    11          which is quite an early period of this conflict.  If I

    12          intended to show subordinate relationships, I would have

    13          drawn a different diagram.  This was not my intention.

    14          My intention was to show defence planning I can and to

    15          show which institutions were involved.

    16      Q.  Ms Calic, the defence planning consists of all the

    17          elements thereof; correct?

    18      A.  Correct.

    19      Q.  In the attachments submitted with your report you also

    20          mention the law on the all people's defence of Bosnia

    21          and former Yugoslavia and a law on defence of May 14th

    22          and enacted on May 20th, and a Decision to which I

    23          pointed relating to the HVO.  None of the elements from

    24          these laws are included in your chart; correct?

    25      A.  Necessarily, because this law was on paper.  It was not

Page 965

     1          implemented on the ground.  This is exactly what I am

     2          trying to explain.  There are so many laws, but reality

     3          was so different from these laws.  You see, in this law

     4          -- under this law there should be only one military

     5          force, only one army, but there were three armies, and

     6          in this municipality there were two armies, the HVO and

     7          the Bosnian Army.  In other territories there was the

     8          Bosnian Serb Army.  So this law was simply not

     9          implemented.

    10                I will give you another interesting example as you

    11          come to the question of implementation which concerns

    12          the War Presidency.  You see, the same law of 20th May

    13          explains the institution of War Presidency, Article 40.

    14          It was in May.  So when, in fact, did the Konjic

    15          authorities implement this law?  It was not until

    16          October.  I also submitted this document.  You see,

    17          there is a certain time-lag, in this case five months,

    18          between May and October.  So, you see, it took a certain

    19          time to implement such laws, and we cannot base all our

    20          analysis only on laws and regulations.  We have to

    21          carefully assess the situation on the ground.

    22      Q.  Ms Calic, the document provided this morning and

    23          referring to the operations manual: is this a new manual

    24          or an amendment one?  Do you know that?

    25      A.  Yes, but it says exactly that it is made pursuant to

Page 966

     1          Article 40 of the decree with the force of law of the

     2          Presidency, which was made in May, and this -- now the

     3          decision to create this Assembly -- to create the

     4          Presidency of the Assembly was made on 26th October.

     5      Q.  Ms Calic, on the basis of certain documents and facts

     6          have you now claimed that in May the regulations of the

     7          Republic were not implemented, and that is the decision

     8          of the territorial staff of the Republic of

     9          Bosnia-Herzegovina, published in the Official Gazette of

    10          1992, which you also provided with partial translation

    11          among your documents; and also the regulation with the

    12          force of law of the armed forces -- this is Official

    13          Gazette number 2 -- and a Decision on the unification of

    14          all armed forces in the territories of the Republic of

    15          Bosnia-Herzegovina; in other words, is this the basis of

    16          the documents or on the basis of your own assessment did

    17          you claim that this was a factual work or operation of

    18          certain bodies in that territory?

    19      A.  I tried to explain that there was a certain difference

    20          between what was in the laws and how it was implemented

    21          on the ground.  I think the fact that the HVO existed as

    22          a separate structure explains very well the way -- how

    23          these laws were implemented.  Under the law it should

    24          not have existed at this time any longer, and I think it

    25          is a clear indication of, you know, how laws were

Page 967

     1          implemented or not implemented.

     2      Q.  Ms Calic, with respect to the HVO can you claim that at

     3          any point, including May 1992, the HVO in Konjic was not

     4          under direct subordination of its headquarters in Grude?

     5      A.  Well, I do not know how it functioned in this time,

     6          because in principle yes; in principle there was a

     7          subordination, but first it was according to the Bosnian

     8          law illegal, because this separate structure should not

     9          even exist, and, second, I do not know whether these

    10          orders did pass from Konjic, and whether there was --

    11          the communication functioned.  I simply do not

    12          November.  So this is why I did not include it in my

    13          drawing.  I simply do not know how it functions on the

    14          ground.

    15      Q.  But you will agree, will you not, that the TO was a

    16          legal structure and that it was in accord with the

    17          regulations put out by the Republic?

    18      A.  Well, this I cannot agree on, this because the law says

    19          there should be one unified army, and this apparently

    20          was not one unified army.  This was two armies, a Croat

    21          and a Bosnian Army.

    22      Q.  Ms Calic, you are talking about 1992?

    23      A.  I am talking about 1992.

    24      Q.  May 1992?

    25      A.  Yes.

Page 968

     1      Q.  And you are talking about a law adopted in May 1992?

     2      A.  Yes.

     3      Q.  Do you know that in the defence law that the deadline is

     4          90 days for adopting regulations for the coordination of

     5          the armed forces and the TO is going to discharge the

     6          functions set therein?

     7      A.  Yes.  I am aware of this.  I am also aware of the fact

     8          that within 19 days instead of implementing this law,

     9          the common structure started to disintegrate completely,

    10          and the Croats left all the common structures which they

    11          -- in which they participated, so instead of

    12          implementing this law within 90 days, everything broke

    13          apart.  Even the joint staff was then dissolved.

    14      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Thank you very much, Ms Residovic.  I

    15          think the Trial Chamber will rise for lunch.

    16      (1.00 pm)

    17                            (Luncheon adjournment)









Page 969

     1          (2.30pm)

     2      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   The witness is still on her oath.  Ms

     3          Residovic, you can continue your cross-examination.

     4      MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation):   Thank you, your Honour.

     5          Ms Calic, let me conclude with a couple of questions.

     6          On Thursday I very clearly requested that all documents

     7          be submitted to me that you used as a basis for drawing

     8          up this chart of yours.  Prosecutor, Mr Ostberg, gave us

     9          a total of six documents; is that correct?

    10      A.  This is correct.

    11      Q.  And we have just seen that five out of those six

    12          documents do not directly explain the chart that you

    13          made; is that correct?

    14      A.  This is not correct.

    15      Q.  This chart does not contain all the elements important

    16          for understanding the defence plans in Konjic?

    17      A.  I believe it contains the most important elements of the

    18          defence planning in Konjic in May 1992.

    19      Q.  It does not contain any of the elements of

    20          subordination, the chain of command?

    21      A.  No, it does not.  It was not my intention to draw chains

    22          of command.  If I intended to do so, I would have

    23          submitted a different kind of diagram.  It was not my

    24          intention to show chains of command.

    25      Q.  So, in other words, the chart does not reflect all the

Page 970

     1          regulations and the entire situation, but your

     2          intentions or your idea of the plans for defence in

     3          Konjic?

     4      A.  This is also not correct.  This document, this diagram

     5          shows different actors, the major actors involved in

     6          defence planning in May 1992 in Konjic.  This is not my

     7          personal view.  It is based on very many documents.  I

     8          made a selection of six documents, which are

     9          representative of many others.  All these documents, I

    10          believe, will be introduced during this case by other

    11          witnesses.

    12      Q.  Your report contains also the position of the Ministry

    13          of the Interior as one of the defence forces of Konjic,

    14          which does not -- is not included in the chart; is that

    15          correct?

    16      A.  It is correct that it is not included in the chart.

    17      Q.  It is, therefore, correct that your intention was not to

    18          depict all the important structures existing at that

    19          time in the municipality?

    20      A.  Yes, it was.  As for the police forces, the forces of

    21          the Ministry of the Interior, it was difficult to show

    22          it in a simplified way, because they were forming part

    23          as well -- they were forming part of the War Presidency

    24          as well as of the armed forces.  It was just a question

    25          of not creating too much confusion of where they have to

Page 971

     1          be situated, but under the law they were part of the

     2          United Armed Forces.

     3      Q.  On page 12 of your report, paragraph 1, you said that

     4          since April 1992 a joint command was formed in Konjic.

     5          None of the six documents submitted contains the

     6          information which would lead to such a conclusion, is

     7          that correct?

     8      A.  One of the documents speaks about the intention to form

     9          unified forces.  I saw many witness statements referring

    10          to unified structures existing in April 1992, and I

    11          believe these witnesses will come here and support their

    12          views here.

    13      Q.  Ms Calic, I asked you whether any of the six documents

    14          submitted here pursuant to my request to be provided

    15          with the basis for your report speaks that the joint

    16          command was formed in April 1992; yes or no?

    17      A.  Among these documents you will not find a decision to

    18          form a joint command, because I have not seen such a

    19          document, but I have seen many documents indicating to

    20          this fact, and I have also seen many witness statements,

    21          and I believe these witnesses will come here and support

    22          this view, but I cannot speak for these witnesses, of

    23          course.

    24      Q.  You could have seen the witness statements from the

    25          prosecutor, so your conclusion is what you wrote here on

Page 972

     1          page 12, and this is not the actual facts that you

     2          learned on the basis of the documents?

     3      A.  I learned it somehow on the basis of the documents.  I

     4          showed you several documents indicating that there were

     5          two structures, a Croat and a Muslim-dominated military

     6          structure, and these were acting together, and this

     7          fitted also in the overall policy of the Bosnian

     8          government to unite -- to unite the forces.

     9      Q.  I will just repeat this question once again.  The

    10          documents are the joint actions of HVO and TO were

    11          submitted with the dates of 25th May and later, so there

    12          are no documents on joint actions conducted in April

    13          1992?

    14      A.  Not among these six, but there are other documents and

    15          other witness statements.  I made a certain selection.

    16          I believed this was a selection which was representative

    17          of the kind of documents I used, but there are numerous

    18          other documents, and I repeat I believe they will all be

    19          introduced here.

    20      Q.  In other words, Ms Calic, although I asked for all the

    21          documents, you gave me just a selection of documents; is

    22          that correct?

    23      A.  That is absolutely correct.

    24      Q.  So your chart number 50 is not absolutely correct on the

    25          basis of the existing documents; it is an incomplete

Page 973

     1          illustration and a simplified illustration of a certain

     2          structure in Konjic in May 1992, as is your document

     3          number 3 on the ethnic structure of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

     4      A.  Any diagram is, of course, a simplified version of

     5          reality, as is any book, any article, any report.  I

     6          would like to stress again that I have seen so many

     7          documents, probably several hundreds.  I am not capable

     8          of introducing them alone here, but I am sure they will

     9          be introduced during this court, and they reflect the

    10          six which I have chosen.  They reflect perfectly all the

    11          other documents which I have seen.

    12                You come now back to this map, and I used the

    13          lunch break to check again the numbers.  The ethnic

    14          composition of Bjelina; Bjelina has, of course, nothing

    15          to do with our Konjic.  I got the photocopy and I

    16          confirmed that all the statistical service of Sarajevo

    17          confirmed that the municipality of Bjelina had -- the

    18          composition of the municipality of Bjelina was nearly 60

    19          per cent Serb.  So it was clearly a Serb majority area.

    20          I do not know how this misunderstanding could come up.

    21          I assume maybe you are referring to the town of Bjelina,

    22          which is not a Serb, but the municipality of Bjelina is

    23          nearly 60 per cent Serb according to the statistical

    24          service of Sarajevo, the statistical office of

    25          Sarajevo.  I have got the figures here.  I can show you

Page 974

     1          afterwards.

     2      Q.  Ms Calic, I have concluded my questions about document

     3          number 50.  As for any issues pertaining to the map,

     4          they have to do with the fact that you depicted great

     5          areas with mixed population as being majority Serbian

     6          populations, including Banja Luka, Prijedor and

     7          Bijeljina.  I would not now go back to those issues.  I

     8          think this concludes my cross-examination.  Thank you

     9          very much, your Honours, and thank you, Ms Calic.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Thank you very much.  I think that is

    11          all for you.  I think this is all for the defence

    12          examinations.  Have you any re-examination?

    13      MR OSTBERG:   I do not, your Honour.  I just want to, before

    14          we release Dr Calic, introduce these exhibits to the

    15          Trial Chamber, and that is as exhibit number 6, expert

    16          report of Dr Calic; as exhibits -- in the document file

    17          exhibits number 7-69.  These are the 58 numbered

    18          documents in the file given to you.  Then I will finally

    19          introduce these six documents that Madam Residovic

    20          talked about now.  They were in reality nine, because

    21          six were submitted yesterday and three today.  Your

    22          Honours have nine documents before you in the documents

    23          you have.  That concludes the documents I have to bring

    24          to the court, Dr Calic.

    25                I end by saying thank you very much to Dr Calic

Page 975

     1          for her patience and willingness to answer many, many

     2          questions.  Thank you.

     3      A.  You are welcome.

     4      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   I think there is a very small point I

     5          wanted to get clarified.  There is a question about not

     6          having any document on the Joint Armed Forces.  You do

     7          not remember having any document on the Joint armed

     8          forces?

     9      A.  There is one.  There is one.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Because I see here one dated 4th June

    11          1992.  It is headed "Headquarters of the Joint Armed

    12          Forces, Territorial Defence Headquarters and Croatian

    13          Defence Council."

    14      A.  Yes.

    15      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Signed "for the Headquarters of the

    16          Joint Armed Forces"?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   This is not directed to any particular

    19          person, but it is an authorisation by the Joint Armed

    20          Forces.  So I was surprised that -- I was surprised.

    21      JUDGE JAN:   You have said in your report that in the joint

    22          command the TO Commander was to be the Commander of the

    23          Joint Staff and the HVO Commander was to be the Deputy

    24          Commander?

    25      A.  Yes.

Page 976

     1      JUDGE JAN:   Is there any document supporting it?

     2      A.  There will be many documents supporting it.

     3      JUDGE JAN:   Have you placed them on the record?

     4      A.  Sorry.

     5      Q.  Have you placed them before us?

     6      A.  Not here but there are such documents.  They will be

     7          introduced by other witnesses.

     8      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Thank you very much.  You have done

     9          your best.  I do not think you can do more than what you

    10          have.  It is very gruelling, almost one week of the

    11          witness.  It is a detailed cross-examination?

    12      A.  Okay.

    13      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Thank you very much.

    14      A.  You are welcome.

    15      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   I think the witness is discharged,

    16          except if you need her any longer.

    17      MR OSTBERG:   I do not think so, your Honour.  I hope

    18          everything has been introduced duly.

    19                  (The witness withdrew)

    20          MR MORAN:   Excuse me, your Honour.  As to the exhibits

    21          the prosecution moved to introduce, as to Ms Calic, we

    22          have no objections to exhibit 6, but as to 7 through 79

    23          I believe they are --

    24      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   This is very strange, very strange.

    25      MR MORAN:   I am sorry, your Honour.  I did not hear --

Page 977

     1      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   I say it is very, very strange what

     2          you are now saying.

     3      MR MORAN:   We have no objections as to the --

     4      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   This is very strange.  We have even

     5          dismissed the witness.

     6      MR MORAN:   I am sorry, your Honour.  I did not hear the

     7          forecast for objection.  I apologise.

     8      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Which other witness does the

     9          Prosecution have?

    10      MS McHENRY:   Good afternoon, your Honours.

    11          The Prosecution calls Mr Branko Gotovac.

    12      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Swear the witness, please.

    13                         MR BRANKO GOTOVAC (sworn)

    14                          Examined by MS McHENRY

    15      MS McHENRY:   Good afternoon, sir.  Would you please tell

    16          the court your full name?

    17      A.  (in interpretation) Good afternoon.  My name is Branko

    18          Gotovac.

    19      Q.  What is your age now, sir?

    20      A.  I am 65.

    21      Q.  Are you working at the present time, sir?

    22      A.  I am retired.

    23      Q.  When did you retire?

    24      A.  In 1990.

    25      Q.  What was your occupation before you retired?

Page 978

     1      A.  I was a locksmith.

     2      Q.  Where did you work, what company?

     3      A.  Igman in Konjic.

     4      Q.  What part of Igman, the civilian part or the military

     5          part?

     6      A.  Well, let me explain to you.  I worked in the inventory

     7          maintenance.

     8      Q.  Okay.  How far did you go in school, Mr Gotovac?

     9      A.  I have secondary education.  That was vocational school.

    10      Q.  In May of 1992 where were you living?

    11      A.  In the village of Viniste near Homolje.

    12      Q.  Is that part of Konjic municipality?

    13      A.  Yes.

    14      Q.  Where is that -- where is your village in relation to

    15          Konjic town?  About how far away?

    16      A.  Six and a half kilometres away from Konjic.

    17      Q.  What is your ethnic background, sir?

    18      A.  I am a Serb.

    19      Q.  What is the ethnic background of most of the inhabitants

    20          of Homolje?

    21      A.  17 house holds are Serbian and four are Croatian.

    22      Q.  Was there a time in 1992 when you were arrested,

    23          Mr Gotovac?

    24      A.  I was arrested on 23rd May 1992 and I was taken to

    25          Celebici.

Page 979

     1      Q.  Can you briefly explain the circumstances of your

     2          arrest, including whether or not you were told anything

     3          about why you were being arrested?

     4      A.  Just that that was because I was a Serb.

     5      Q.  Can you -- can you explain briefly where you were when

     6          you were arrested?  Was there any sort of military

     7          fighting, or can you just explain how it came to be that

     8          you were arrested, briefly, please?

     9      A.  On 22nd May 1992 I was in the garden, which was away

    10          from my house.  My elder son was in the house, and he

    11          was arrested and taken to Celebici on 22nd May 1992.

    12          Can I go on?

    13      Q.  Yes, sir, please do.

    14      A.  On 23rd May Emir Alic came.  To give us shelter he said

    15          there would be an action, an operation -- at least that

    16          is what he said -- and he said we should take shelter

    17          until this whole madness passed.  So I spent about half

    18          of the day in his house, and in the evening the police

    19          came, and my son was with Dervo Bajic and Spasoje

    20          Miljevic, but I was taken down there with the car and I

    21          did not see anything because it was dark.

    22      Q.  Now, sir, during the period prior to your arrest were

    23          you armed?

    24      A.  Since I am 65 -- at that time I was 61 -- and I am

    25          retired and nobody asked me any questions and I was not

Page 980

     1          interested in anything.

     2      Q.  Did you participate in any defence of your village?

     3      A.  No.

     4      Q.  What happened to you after you were arrested,

     5          Mr Gotovac?

     6      A.  I was in room 22 for a while.  I saw many things and I

     7          heard many things.  There was a man Slobodan Babic in

     8          room 22.  He could not even speak because he was beaten

     9          so badly.

    10      Q.  Mr Gotovac, can I go back for a minute, please?  When

    11          you were arrested, were you brought to the Celebici

    12          barracks?

    13      A.  Yes.

    14      Q.  Would that still have been on May 23rd?

    15      A.  In the evening between 10 and 11pm on 23rd May, that was

    16          when I was taken to Celebici.

    17      Q.  How long did you remain a prisoner in Celebici?

    18      A.  For 101 days.

    19      Q.  You stated that when you were brought to the camp you

    20          were first put in building 22.  Can you describe what

    21          building 22 was and what it was used for when you were

    22          first brought there?

    23      A.  Yes, I can.  There were fire pumps and it was storage

    24          for fire-fighting equipment.

    25      Q.  Were there other prisoners kept in building 22?

Page 981

     1      A.  When I arrived on 23rd May 1992 it was full of people,

     2          so that we were all packed like sardines.  Can I

     3          elaborate?

     4      Q.  Yes, please.  Please do.

     5      A.  When the slices of bread were being distributed the

     6          person who did it said that we were 104, but I did not

     7          count that.

     8      Q.  Can you describe the other conditions in building 22?

     9          Where did you sleep?  What kind of food you got?

    10      A.  There was very little food and water as well.  The

    11          hygienic conditions were nothing, very bad, and so on.

    12      Q.  Where did you sleep, Mr Gotovac?

    13      A.  Since it was very tight, we would just lean on one

    14          another.  That is how it was.

    15      Q.  How long did you stay in building 22 approximately?

    16      A.  Approximately I don't recall.  Maybe 12-15 days.  I

    17          can't recall exactly, because I was of poor hearing,

    18          poor sight, so I was just trying to survive the crisis.

    19      Q.  While you were kept in building 22 did you witness any

    20          mistreatment?

    21      A.  Yes.  On 21st May Spasoje Miljevic was taken out.  He

    22          was beaten up.  I saw Slobodan Babic.  He could not see,

    23          he could not speak.  That is how it was.

    24      Q.  With respect to Mr Miljevic, how long had you been in

    25          building 22 when he was beaten?

Page 982

     1      A.  We came together and we left -- we were transferred

     2          together to hangar number 6.

     3      Q.  About how long had you been in building 22 when Mr

     4          Miljevic was beaten?  Was it right when you first got

     5          there or towards the end of the time you were in

     6          building 22?

     7      A.  We arrived on 23rd May 1992 and he was beaten on 24th

     8          May 1992.  That was the very next day.

     9      Q.  How did you know that he was beaten?

    10      A.  He came back and they had taken him out, and he came

    11          back and he couldn't walk.  Two people had to take him

    12          to relieve himself.

    13      Q.  Did this happen on only one day, that Mr Miljevic was

    14          beaten?

    15      A.  That brief period of time I noticed only once, but

    16          several times in number 6.

    17      Q.  Okay.  Staying again at the time when you were still in

    18          building 22, did you hear any mistreatment while you

    19          were there, even if you did not see it yourself?

    20      A.  I could not see it, because the door was closed, but we

    21          heard on 26th May the first group arrived from Bradina.

    22      MS McMURREY:   I object.  He is testifying from no personal

    23          knowledge.  She said: "Have you heard..."  The question

    24          she asked was:

    25                "Did you hear any mistreatment while you were

Page 983

     1          there, even if you did not see it personally?"

     2                He said:

     3                "I could not see it because of the door."

     4                Unless he has personal knowledge about these

     5          beatings she is asking him about, then he would not be

     6          able to testify.

     7      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   It is what he says he heard.  Is

     8          hearing not part of one's senses.

     9      MS McMURREY:   This is part of one's senses.  I was thinking

    10          he heard it from someone else, but if he personally

    11          heard it, that is a different story.  Thank you.

    12      MS McHENRY:   Mr Gotovac, would you please continue with

    13          what you heard?

    14      A.  On 26th May 1992 the first group from Bradina was

    15          brought, the group of prisoners, and I heard people

    16          crying.  I could not see them but I heard them and after

    17          that I heard them.  They were forced -- they were given

    18          to greet "Meherba", "Praise the Lord", and things like

    19          that.  Then they were singing something.  I do not know

    20          what.

    21      Q.  While you were in building 22 did you ever hear any

    22          screams or cries from prisoners besides on 26th May?

    23      A.  I suffered the same trauma on 27th.  There was a second

    24          group that arrived and they were also crying and things

    25          like that.

Page 984

     1      Q.  Where were you brought when you were moved from building

     2          22?

     3      A.  They took us to hangar number 6.

     4      Q.  Can you describe what hangar number 6 was like?

     5      A.  That was a tin structure made like a half cylinder.  I

     6          cannot recall the length and the width.  It was like a

     7          large warehouse.

     8      Q.  Do you know how many people were kept in hangar number 6

     9          when you were there?

    10      A.  I did not understand the question.

    11      Q.  Do you know how many prisoners were kept in hangar

    12          number 6 approximately, how many other people were kept

    13          there besides you?

    14      A.  No.  Also by the way the food was distributed about 240

    15          people.  The person who was distributing bread slices

    16          told us that.

    17      Q.  Approximately where were you in the hangar?  Were you

    18          close to the door or far away?  Can you describe that

    19          for us?

    20      A.  There was at first a row that was circular and then

    21          there were two in the middle and I was in the middle not

    22          far away from the door.

    23      Q.  Can you describe the conditions, what the conditions

    24          were like in hangar number 6, how you -- what kind of

    25          sanitary facilities, what kind of food you had, what

Page 985

     1          kind of sleeping blankets and things like that you had?

     2      A.  Whatever people had to take off, like coats, and

     3          sometimes a blanket was torn into four pieces.  The

     4          conditions were very, very bad.  That was concrete down

     5          there, so there was almost nothing.

     6      Q.  What kind of food did you have to eat, sir?

     7      A.  Sometimes they gave us something cooked, maybe five

     8          spoonfuls, and a slice of bread.

     9      Q.  On what occasions were you allowed outside?

    10      A.  Only for personal need to go to urinate.

    11      Q.  Mr Gotovac, while you were in hanger number 6, did you

    12          yourself suffer any mistreatment?

    13      A.  Yes.

    14      Q.  Was this on more than one occasion?

    15      A.  It was several times, and I saw Scepo Gotovac, who was

    16          taken out and brought back in and shortly thereafter he

    17          died, and he was taken out with Simo Jovanovic several

    18          times and beaten.  He came back and in 15 minutes he

    19          died.

    20                We could not see very well in the hangar, but we

    21          recognised his crying.  I saw Cedo Avranovic between the

    22          rows half undressed, half dead, and nobody knew what

    23          happened to him.  I saw Zeljko Cecez.  He was taken out

    24          and beaten and brought back in.  He asked for water and

    25          nobody gave him water.  He was crying: "Brothers, help

Page 986

     1          me."  I don't know when but he shortly thereafter died,

     2          maybe within 20 minutes.

     3      Q.  With respect to Mr Scepo Gotovac, can you please tell us

     4          in any more detail what you saw about what happened to

     5          him?

     6      A.  Hazim Delic came and he said that in 1942 that he

     7          killed, slaughtered or something two Muslims and he

     8          said: "No, I never killed a chicken", and he slapped him

     9          on his face.  He dropped down and he kicked him.  Then

    10          he took him out and I heard his cries and screams.  Then

    11          I heard him mention his mother and Zenga said: "What

    12          mother?  Did you ever have a mother?"

    13      Q.  Going back, sir, to your own mistreatment, can you

    14          please tell us the first incident that you remember

    15          where you yourself were the victim of mistreatment?

    16      A.  I remember it very well.  First, my younger son was

    17          taken out and beaten and I crawled over to him at night

    18          and said: "Can you still survive?"  He said that he

    19          would, and the older one was well, but was beaten less

    20          than the younger one.  Then it was my turn soon

    21          thereafter.  Landzo took me out, Esad Landzo, called

    22          Zenga.  He beat me in my rib cage, stomach, teeth.  So

    23          he knocked out a few of my teeth but it was not just

    24          that.  There were several mistreatments following that.

    25      Q.  Okay.  With respect to the first mistreatment where your

Page 987

     1          teeth were knocked out and you were beaten in your rib

     2          cage by Zenga, do you remember anything else about that

     3          beating?  For instance, where did it occur?  Can you

     4          please tell us everything you remember about that

     5          particular beating?

     6      A.  All right.  That was not far from the hangar and he

     7          commanded me to put my hands behind my back, behind my

     8          head and he beat me.  My stomach, something snapped

     9          there and he said: "What are you grabbing your stomach

    10          for?" I told him "something snapped there".  He said:

    11          "I'll operate on you right now."

    12      Q.  When he said: "I'll operate on you right now", what

    13          happened next?

    14      A.  He beat me some more and then he said: "Let's go.  Let's

    15          go back and then we'll continue."

    16      Q.  Is that everything you remember about that first

    17          instance where you were beaten by Zenga?

    18      A.  But there's more.

    19      Q.  Okay.  Please continue.

    20      A.  My next taking out, we went behind a hangar and he

    21          filled my mouth with grass so that I wouldn't cry and

    22          then he broke off a hoe and he beat me in the feet and

    23          legs and ordered me to get up.  I couldn't get up.  Then

    24          he kicked me some more.  Then I couldn't speak any

    25          more.  Then he was putting a knife into my mouth.  He

Page 988

     1          pulled the grass out and put a knife in and he said:

     2          "Why are you coughing here?"  I didn't know what he was

     3          going to do with me.  -- Can I continue?

     4      Q.  Yes, sir.

     5      A.  He said Lepara was there with him.  He was his bodyguard

     6          or something.  I didn't know him.  He was a younger

     7          man.  I heard from our colleagues that he was Lepara and

     8          there was Makaron.  Then he said to shoot him as if he

     9          is trying to escape.  Then he said: "No, we'll continue

    10          another time.  Bring him back."

    11      Q.  May I ask you, Mr Gotovac, you just mentioned Lepara and

    12          I believe Makaron.  Were they other guards at Celebici?

    13      A.  There were others, but I did not know them.

    14      Q.  But Lepara and Makaron, were they guards?

    15      A.  I heard that they were.  I heard that Makaron was.  I

    16          knew that Lepara was.  I did not know Makaron.

    17      Q.  Who was it who ordered someone to shoot you and then

    18          said: "No, we'll continue another time"?

    19      A.  Landzo ordered -- Esad Landzo, called Zenga.

    20      Q.  Were there any other incidents, any other times where

    21          you were mistreated, sir?

    22      A.  Yes, there were.  Hazim Delic ordered us all for our

    23          hair to be cut.  When we went out to have our hair cut,

    24          when it was my turn, he sent me back to be -- to be

    25          shaved clean and then he started beating me.  He beat me

Page 989

     1          all the way down to the door. Then he kicked me in the

     2          back continue?

     3      Q.  Yes, sir, please.

     4      A.  This torture was the most painful and the worst, because

     5          then he asked me whether I preferred for both of my sons

     6          to be killed or myself, and I said: "Kill me."  Then the

     7          next time I was taken out he took me out just in front

     8          of the door.  There was a case there, a crate about 80

     9          cms long.

    10      Q.  Who took you out, Mr Gotovac?

    11      A.  Esad Landzo, Zenga.  He took both my sons, and Spasoje

    12          Miljevic out.  Some other men came with cameras and they

    13          asked me whether Serbs killed Muslims.  I said: "I don't

    14          know", and I said they didn't.  Zenga threatened me with

    15          his finger, standing at the door, and then, as I

    16          described, the crate, he took out both my sons and

    17          Spasoje Miljevic, and then he put a gasmask on my older

    18          son's face and also to Spasoje Miljevic.  He didn't put

    19          anything on my younger son.  Then they asked me what I

    20          said to the people with the camera.  I said that I had a

    21          sore throat, that I couldn't speak.  Then they let me

    22          be.  I said I didn't say anything.  I can't remember

    23          saying anything.  Then he asked me questions and hit

    24          them.  Then he hit me, and then the older son, he

    25          couldn't stand the gasmask any more.  He started to

Page 990

     1          mumble.  Then he took off his gasmask and started to

     2          beat him about the face.

     3      Q.  Who started to beat your son about the face?

     4      A.  Landzo, Esad Landzo, nicknamed Zenga.  Then he also took

     5          off the gasmask of Spasoje Miljevic.  Then he took my

     6          younger son's shirt off and started to cut him with a

     7          knife.  He said: "Please, Zenga, don't do it."

     8                Then he chased him back inside and I stayed there

     9          on my own and I had to spread my legs and put my hands

    10          behind my head, and when I could not do it any longer,

    11          when I saw that I couldn't move my hands, and I don't

    12          know what happened -- when his tongue went back into his

    13          throat and there was a nurse called Brane.  Then I don't

    14          know who called, whether my older son or somebody.  He

    15          called for help and this man Brane, he had a shoehorn

    16          and took out my tongue.

    17      Q.  Mr Gotovac, can I go back for one minute, please?  I am

    18          sorry.  When you had to spread your legs and put your

    19          hands behind your head, can you please explain in more

    20          detail what happened after you spread your legs and put

    21          your hands behind your head?  Were you standing up or

    22          were you lying down?

    23      A.  I was sitting down and he hit me in the scrotum so that

    24          I bled soon after that, and I saw blood coming out of my

    25          shoe legs, and Hazim Delic was close by, and when I fell

Page 991

     1          unconscious on the concrete and when Brane Gligorevic

     2          pulled out my tongue I started to come to.

     3                Then Delic said: "Put him into my Fica car", and

     4          they didn't dare.  So I crawled to the Fica but I

     5          couldn't open the door.  He went to the other side,

     6          opened the door and told me to crawl in.  I crawled in

     7          and he took me to number 22.  Then he called the doctor,

     8          who was also there as a prisoner, Dr Relja from

     9          Bradina.  His last name is Mrkajic.  He said:  "Will he

    10          die?"  Relja said: "He will die."

    11      Q.  But you did not die, did you, Mr Gotovac?

    12      A.  I did not.

    13      Q.  Mr Gotovac, do you know, at the time that you and your

    14          sons were being beaten, was anyone else present besides you,

    15          your sons, Mr Miljevic and Zenga?

    16      A.  The three of them and I as a fourth.  I did not notice

    17          anyone else.

    18      Q.  Did you remain for some period of time after Mr Delic

    19          brought you -- when you regained consciousness and

    20          Mr Delic brought you to building 22, how long did you

    21          stay in 22?

    22      A.  I don't know when it was when he brought me in.  I think

    23          it was in early July, and I remained there until 30th

    24          August 1992.  That is when I was released as a

    25          seriously ill person.  I was allowed to go home.

Page 992

     1      Q.  Were you seriously ill because of the injuries you had

     2          received while you were at Celebici?

     3      A.  Yes, that is correct.

     4      Q.  Were there any other incidents where you were mistreated

     5          by Zenga or by anyone else while you were at Celebici?

     6      A.  Yes, with other people, but I couldn't tell you anything

     7          about that, because the door was closed.

     8      Q.  Was there ever an occasion where something happened to

     9          one of your hands and, if so, can you please tell us

    10          slowly about that?

    11      A.  I will tell you about it.  He went behind my back and

    12          jumped on to the crate and jumped -- I am talking about

    13          Landzo Zenga, Esad -- and he kicked me with his knees

    14          into my back.  I don't know how many times.  I was

    15          already deformed at that time so that my left shoulder

    16          all the way down to my elbow hurts every time the

    17          weather changes and even when it doesn't, and I also

    18          have a backache and also my ribs ache when the weather

    19          is about to change.

    20      Q.  What happened to your -- did anything happen to your

    21          hand on that occasion?

    22      A.  Well, maybe something did happen to my shoulder joint,

    23          because I have pain going all the way down to my arm

    24          when he kicked me with his knees.  Maybe something

    25          happened.

Page 993

     1      Q.  Was there ever anything put on the palm of your hand,

     2          Mr Gotovac?

     3      A.  The first time when my jaw was damaged and my teeth

     4          knocked out -- that was the first time that I was

     5          maltreated and beaten -- he put a cigarette on to my

     6          right palm and the tendons were burnt.  That is what the

     7          doctor told me, and now I can't bend two of my fingers.

     8      Q.  Who put a cigarette on your hand?

     9      A.  Esad Landzo, nicknamed Zenga.

    10      Q.  Were you allowed to take your hand away while the

    11          cigarette was being placed on it?

    12      A.  When he burnt me with the cigarette, the cigarette was

    13          extinguished.  He actually extinguished it by pressing

    14          it into my palm.

    15      Q.  Was anyone else present when Zenga did that, any other

    16          guard or anyone else?

    17      A.  There was a guard, but I don't know who he is.

    18      Q.  Does your hand show any marks from the cigarette?

    19      A.  Yes, I can show it to you.  It can be seen.

    20      Q.  Can you put it under that light on the machine next to

    21          you, Mr Gotovac?  I don't know if the usher can help him

    22          with this.

    23      MS McMURREY:   Your Honour, may the defence attorneys be

    24          allowed to go and inspect the wound he is talking

    25          about?

Page 994

     1      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Yes.

     2      A.  And I can't bend these two fingers.

     3      MS McMURREY:   Your Honours, I don't know if it is possible

     4          right now, but just for preservation of evidence that

     5          they have shown to the court, is it possible to have the

     6          Video Department or someone make a print of that so that

     7          we can have it for future reference.

     8      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Have you seen it.

     9      MS McMURREY:   Yes, I have seen it.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   That should be sufficient.

    11      MS McMURREY:   Well, we will cover that in cross-examination

    12          then.  Thank you.

    13      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Yes.

    14                           (Hand photographed.)

    15      MS McHENRY:   Thank you, sir.

    16      A.  You are welcome.  I have other things I could say.

    17      Q.  With respect to what happened to you, is there also a

    18          time where you were forced to do something with a hand

    19          grenade?

    20      A.  Yes, the hand grenade.  He was holding it in his hand

    21          and he said to pull on the pin, and then he ran away.

    22      Q.  Who is he, Mr Gotovac?

    23      A.  Esad Landzo, called Zenga.

    24      Q.  Was there a time when anything happened to your legs,

    25          where you were cut in any way?

Page 995

     1      A.  No, only in my stomach.  It's protruding and every year

     2          it's more and more.  I would like to have it checked by

     3          somebody.

     4      Q.  Now, sir, you have testified that about Zenga.  Did you

     5          know this person Zenga before you were at the camp?

     6      A.  No, I did not know him, but the young men who went to

     7          school with him knew him.  They even said he trained

     8          karate or something.  However, very soon everybody came

     9          to know him.

    10      Q.  Do you know the names of any of the younger prisoners

    11          who knew Landzo?

    12      A.  Yes, I do remember.  Bendjo, Dusko Bendjo.

    13      Q.  Is it Dusko?

    14      A.  Bendjo, Bendjo Dusko.

    15      Q.  Did you see Landzo throughout your time at the camp?

    16      A.  Yes.  Everything -- all the tortures that he did with

    17          me, you saw him taking other people out and bringing

    18          them back and so on.

    19      Q.  Did you hear his name on other occasions besides the

    20          occasion when Mr Bendjo told you his name?  Did you hear

    21          his name on other occasions also?

    22      A.  Frankly speaking, there were some young men who knew

    23          him, but I don't recall the names of these young men.

    24      Q.  Can you describe what Zenga looked like, including

    25          whether or not you found anything distinctive or --

Page 996

     1      A.  I can.  He was medium height, only some hair on top of

     2          his head.  In his face it was pale but more yellowish

     3          than whitish complexion.  Sometimes he would wear a

     4          hat.  It was a camouflage hat.

     5      Q.  Did you hear his voice?

     6      A.  Yes.  I knew his voice well, because he took me out a

     7          number of times and I remember him the best when he

     8          said: "Do you want me to kill both of your sons or

     9          yourself?", and when I told him "myself", and the worst

    10          torture, when I went to 22 badly ill, he said that I

    11          would die within eight days.

    12      Q.  Was there anything -- excuse me.  You also mentioned --

    13          excuse me.  Did you see Landzo around the camp up until

    14          the time that you left Celebici?

    15      JUDGE JAN:   He has already answered that.  He has already

    16          said that.

    17      MS McHENRY:   Okay.

    18      A.  I saw him when I was in number 22.  I heard him in the

    19          compound several days.  The door was kept open.  He was

    20          wearing some white belt.  I don't know if he was

    21          transferred to the police or what.

    22      Q.  About when was it that you saw him and he was wearing a

    23          white belt?  How long before you left the camp?

    24      A.  That was mid-August, maybe even before.

    25      Q.  Are you sure that Landzo is the person who did all these

Page 997

     1          things to you that you have described today?

     2      A.  Yes, and I stand by it and I suffered a lot and I still

     3          suffer today.

     4      Q.  Mr Gotovac, you have also mentioned Mr Delic.  Did you

     5          know Hazim Delic where you were at the camp?

     6      A.  I did not know him before but in number 22, when we got

     7          there, he had crutches, and one of his feet was

     8          bandaged.  When we were in number 6 there were no

     9          crutches, no bandage.  It was all normal.  He did not

    10          have the bandage on his leg any more.

    11      Q.  How often did you have occasion to see Mr Delic?

    12      A.  From middle of July until 30th August I saw him several

    13          times, especially on 30th August, when he told me -- he

    14          came to the door and he said: "Hurry up and get ready."

    15          I was afraid.  I did not know what was going on.  I took

    16          one shoe and left the other shoe.  Then he said -- I

    17          said: "What shall I do?"  He said: "You are going home.

    18          Get ready right away."

    19      Q.  Did you come to observe or know anything about

    20          Mr Delic's functions in the camp?

    21      A.  They called him the Commander of the Guard and also the

    22          Deputy Commander.  I don't -- I am not familiar with

    23          what he was, but anyway that is what he was called.

    24      Q.  Would you ever see Mr Delic inside the hangar, hangar

    25          number 6?

Page 998

     1      A.  Oftentimes.

     2      Q.  What would he be doing when you saw him inside hangar

     3          number 6?

     4      A.  Always strict discipline.  He would pull up your feet,

     5          look down.  Whoever would look up would get kicked or

     6          hit in the back, things like that.

     7      Q.  Mr Gotovac, besides what you have already told us about,

     8          did you observe any other incidents where other persons

     9          were mistreated?

    10      A.  You could not see well because it was mostly done in the

    11          evening, at night.  There were no lights.  You could

    12          hear screams.  People were beaten up.  So I could not

    13          say that I saw things.  You could not see but you heard

    14          things.

    15      Q.  Besides what you have already told us about, did you

    16          have ever see the injuries of some other prisoners?

    17      A.  Yes, I did.  I saw Spasoje Miljevic.  I saw some burns

    18          on his legs.  Dusko Bendjo had burns on his legs.

    19          Nedeljko Draganic and Spasoje Miljevic is one of the

    20          witnesses, and I saw those burns on them.

    21      Q.  With respect to Mr Draganic, what burns did you see on

    22          Mr Draganic?

    23      A.  I was going to describe now.  Draganic was in number 22

    24          several days to have that treated and the rest of them

    25          were coming to be bandaged.

Page 999

     1      Q.  Where were Mr Draganic's injuries?

     2      A.  His knees up, and Draganic is a witness, who he may be

     3          able to testify.

     4      Q.  Okay.  With respect to Mr Miljevic, what injuries did

     5          you yourself observe on Mr Miljevic?  Where were the

     6          injuries, for instance?

     7      A.  He told me in person that they heated a knife and then

     8          they placed a knife on his thighs.

     9      Q.  Did you --

    10      A.  He is one of the witnesses here, so he will not say

    11          better.

    12      Q.  Did you yourself, while you were in the camp, see

    13          Mr Miljevic's injuries?

    14      A.  I saw them when he came to be bandaged to number 22.

    15      Q.  Did you ever see or hear anything about when prisoners

    16          were made to act like cars, Mr Gotovac?

    17      A.  Yes.  Vukasin Mrkjajic, sometimes in the evening,

    18          sometimes day time he would go around saying: "Beep,

    19          beep"; and then somebody would say:  "Left blinker;

    20          right blinker." Sometimes he would have to sing.

    21          Sometimes he cried.

    22      Q.  Do you have any information about who it was that made

    23          him act like a car, go:  "Beep, beep" and other things?

    24      A.  He told me personally that it was Hazim Delic who forced

    25          him to do that.

Page 1000

     1      Q.  Do you have any -- did you ever hear this or did you

     2          ever hear Mr Delic's voice while this was going on?

     3      A.  Well, to be frank, I could hear a voice, but I told you

     4          in advance that my hearing is poor, and I can't really

     5          tell whose the voice was, but he told me that he was the

     6          one.

     7      Q.  Did you ever see any injuries on Mirko Babic, or did you

     8          observe his physical condition?

     9      A.  He went from Bjelovcina to the town of Konjic on the

    10          occasion of his arrest and he was beaten and maltreated,

    11          and he was again abused and beaten in Celebici.  He

    12          complained to us and that two or three of his ribs were

    13          injured.

    14      MS McMURREY:   Your Honour, I object.  He is testifying from

    15          no personal knowledge.  The question was whether he saw

    16          the injuries.  That would mean he would have personal

    17          knowledge of that, but what actually happened to Mirko

    18          Babic, unless he saw it, he does not know.  So he is

    19          testifying with lack of personal knowledge.

    20      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   I hear him say Mirko Babic told him.

    21          Am I correct that he said he told him?

    22      MS McHENRY:   Yes, your Honour.

    23      A.  Yes, yes, that is what Babic told me, that he had

    24          injuries to three of his ribs.

    25      MS McMURREY:   Well, your Honour, that would still be lack

Page 1001

     1          of his personal knowledge.  Somebody else told him that

     2          --

     3      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Somebody else?  The person affected

     4          told him.  The person who was beaten told him.

     5      MS McMURREY:  I know there is a ruling on hearsay but that

     6          is still no personal knowledge about what happened to

     7          Mr Babic, only what somebody else told him.

     8      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   I do not know whether Babic is someone

     9          else to him for telling him what happened to him.

    10      MS McMURREY:   My objection is just that he did not see it.

    11      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   It is not necessary.  You have raised

    12          an objection.  I hear but think it is overruled.

    13      MS McMURREY:   Thank you.

    14      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Babic can tell him things which

    15          happened to him; he did not say he saw that thing

    16          himself.

    17      MS McMURREY:   I am certainly not going to argue with the

    18          court at all on this issue.

    19      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   You can if you really want to.

    20      MS McMURREY:   No, I do not really want to.  Just in my

    21          country, and I know this is not my country, that is, of

    22          course, called hearsay.  I know there are certain areas

    23          in this proceedings where hearsay is allowed.  My

    24          objection is that Mr Gotovac did not see Mirko Babic

    25          being beaten, so he has no actual personal knowledge

Page 1002

     1          other than what someone else told him.

     2      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   You had better go back to the hearsay

     3          rule.

     4      JUDGE JAN:   It is corroborative evidence.

     5      MS McMURREY:   Okay.  Thank you.

     6      MS McHENRY:   Mr Gotovac, in addition to what Mr Babic told

     7          you when he was at the camp, did you ever see his

     8          physical condition, for instance his ability to walk.

     9      MS McMURREY:   Your Honour, I am going to object.  The

    10          prosecutor is leading the witness.

    11      A.  He was in no condition at all.  He was in a really bad

    12          way.

    13      MS McMURREY:   Excuse me, Mr Gotovac.

    14      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Okay.

    15      MS McMURREY:   She can ask about whether he saw injuries,

    16          but then she is telling him what the injuries are in her

    17          question.

    18      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Rephrase the question.

    19      MS McMURREY:   So she is leading.

    20      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Did he see Babic?

    21      MS McHENRY:   Mr Gotovac, did you ever see anything unusual

    22          about Mr Babic's physical condition when he was at

    23          Celebici?

    24      A.  Well, what was unusual, he was always very close to me,

    25          he was in a bad way, broken down.  He was very weak, and

Page 1003

     1          we could not say anything to each other.  We were not

     2          allowed to.  We had to look straight ahead.  We were not

     3          allowed to even whisper to each other.

     4      Q.  Mr Gotovac, going to the time that you were brought by

     5          Mr Delic back to building 22 for treatment, can you

     6          describe the building at that time -- can you describe

     7          what it was used for and what the conditions were like

     8          at that time in building 22?

     9      A.  The conditions were bad and the building itself was used

    10          as a fire-fighting equipment storage facility.  There

    11          was a pump there.

    12      Q.  When you were there the second time can you describe the

    13          food and the other facilities?

    14      A.  The other conditions were really very bad.  There was

    15          some food, but at first, the first eight days, I

    16          couldn't eat at all, because I bled a lot and the

    17          doctors there, the prisoners, they were struggling to

    18          stop the haemorrhage and they finally managed to do

    19          that.  So for eight days I couldn't get up myself.  The

    20          others had to help me.  If I lay on my back, I couldn't

    21          even get up.  So that I was really in a very, very bad

    22          way.

    23      Q.  Was there ever a time when you were at the camp when you

    24          were in a condition such that you could eat but food was

    25          not available?

Page 1004

     1      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Please can we break here?  Perhaps you

     2          will construct your sentences a little better when we

     3          come back.  We will return at 4.15.

     4      (3.50 pm)

     5                               (Short break).

     6      (4.15 pm).

     7      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:  Please kindly remind the witness he is

     8          still under his oath.

     9      THE REGISTRAR:   A reminder that you are still under oath,

    10          sir.

    11      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Counsel, this kind of questions, witness

    12          is here for you to guide him instead of leading him.  Guide

    13          him.  He will state what he is here to say.

    14      MS McHENRY:   Yes, your Honour.  I will try to guide without

    15          leading.  Mr Gotovac, what, if anything, do you know

    16          concerning who was in charge of Celebici camp?

    17      A.  We heard and I saw him there, Pavo Mucic, Zdravko.  Pavo

    18          is his nickname.

    19      Q.  Who did you hear that he was in charge from?

    20      A.  All the ones who knew him said that, and I knew him.

    21      Q.  Did you yourself ever see Mucic when you were in the

    22          camp?

    23      A.  Yes, I did, especially when I was in number 22, as a

    24          patient.  He walked in there.  He came to number 22.

    25      Q.  During the time that you were in the infirmary did

Page 1005

     1          anyone ever ask how it was that you were injured?

     2      A.  No, they didn't, only during the visit of the

     3          International Red Cross.

     4      Q.  Can you -- during the visit of the International Red

     5          Cross who was it who asked you how you were injured?

     6          Persons from the camp or persons from the Red Cross?

     7      A.  Persons from the Red Cross through an interpreter, who

     8          was a short woman from Mostar.

     9      Q.  Mr Gotovac, you showed us the injury on your hand.  Do

    10          you have any other visible injuries anywhere on your

    11          body?

    12      A.  I have in the abdominal area and it's protruding quite a

    13          bit, and my shoulder also is deformed pretty much.

    14      Q.  Where did you receive the injuries that caused your

    15          abdominal and shoulder problems?

    16      A.  From hangar number 6.

    17      Q.  From the beatings that you have already told us about;

    18          is that correct?

    19      MS McMURREY:   Your Honour, I am going to object.  She is

    20          leading again.

    21      MS McHENRY:   I would like to say guiding.

    22      MS McMURREY:   I am objecting to the leading form of the

    23          question again, your Honour.

    24      MS McHENRY:   I will rephrase the questions.  I apologise.

    25      MS McMURREY:   Thank you.

Page 1006

     1      MS McHENRY:   Mr Gotovac, what happened in front of hangar

     2          number 6 such that you have abdominal and shoulder

     3          injuries.

     4      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   He did not say anything happened in

     5          front of number 6.

     6      MS McHENRY:  I am sorry, I believe he did.  I just asked:

     7          where did you receive the injuries?  His answer was:

     8                "From hangar number 6".

     9      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   I did not hear that.

    10      JUDGE JAN:   He has already replied to the question and he

    11          says he was beaten up.  Why do you want it again?

    12      MS McHENRY:   Because, your Honour, I am going to ask -- I

    13          have just obtained the defence counsel's permission, and

    14          I am going to ask --

    15      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   You are wanting to tell the Trial

    16          Chamber how he got this injury.

    17      MS McHENRY:   Yes, your Honour.

    18      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Ask him: "How did you get your

    19          injuries?"

    20      MS McHENRY:   How did you get your injuries, Mr Gotovac?

    21      A.  The first time I was taken out I got injuries in the

    22          abdominal area from kicking and also from -- and also

    23          with the fist.  He was waving it and just hitting me

    24          always in the same time.  Then when he hurt me he said

    25          -- and I held on to my side and he said:  "Why are you

Page 1007

     1          holding it?"  I said: "Something snapped in there." He

     2          said:  "Now I am going to operate on you."

     3      Q.  Who is he, so the record is clear?

     4      A.  Esad Landzo, called Zenga.

     5      Q.  Mr Gotovac, would you consent to someone from the video

     6          photograph unit of the Tribunal taking photographs of

     7          your injuries later on this afternoon so that they can

     8          be shown to the court?  The defence council has

     9          previously agreed to this being done, your Honour.

    10                Would that be all right with you, Mr Gotovac?

    11      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   He has only mentioned one injury and

    12          he has only spoken of just one?

    13      A.  Yes, I agree.

    14      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Did he have any other injuries apart

    15          from the one he has just told the Trial Chamber about?

    16      A.  I think I should have pictures taken of the shoulder and

    17          the arm and the abdominal area.

    18      MS McHENRY:   Your Honour, the hand -- the video unit has

    19          come down to say that the video showing the palm of the

    20          hand injury did not come out well because of the

    21          limitations of the video equipment.  So we would be

    22          asking that pictures of all these injuries be obtained,

    23          and defence council has already agreed to this during

    24          the break.

    25                Mr Gotovac, were you ever told why you were being

Page 1008

     1          imprisoned in Celebici?

     2      A.  I heard nothing except that it was because I was a Serb.

     3      Q.  Were you ever interrogated at all while you were at the

     4          camp?

     5      A.  On one occasion there was Miro Stenek.  It was very

     6          little.  He saw that my throat was hurting and asked just a

     7          few questions.  He said: "Are you an SDS member?"  I

     8          said: "No."  "Do you have any arms?"  I said: "No."  He

     9          said: "Just go away.  You're not important."

    10      Q.  Do you know approximately when it was that Mr Stenek

    11          interviewed you?

    12      A.  Early June 1992.

    13      Q.  Did you sign a statement at that time?

    14      A.  Yes, I did, but I didn't have my glasses, so I never

    15          read it, so I don't know what it is about.

    16      Q.  Were you ever interviewed or interrogated at any other

    17          time while you were at the camp?

    18      A.  Zravko Mucic came on 29th August and told me that I was

    19          not questioned, and I told him that I was questioned by

    20          Miro Stenek, but very briefly.  He said:  "He did not",

    21          and then he called me in and he saw what my situation

    22          was, and he said:  "Number 8."  I didn't know what it

    23          was.  That was category 8, which means that you didn't

    24          do anything.

    25      Q.  What happened next after you were interviewed?

Page 1009

     1      A.  He said: "Go lie down", and I went there and in the 30th

     2          in the evening I was called out to go home.

     3      Q.  Were you then released on 30th?

     4      A.  Yes.  Exactly on 30th August around 9.  I had no watch

     5          but that was the time.

     6      Q.  Your Honours, with the usher's assistance, I would like

     7          to show the witness an exhibit and get it marked.

     8      JUDGE JAN:   What is this about?

     9      MS McHENRY:   This is his release diagram, which has already

    10          been shown to defence counsel, and I have extra copies

    11          for the court.  I would ask that the originals of the

    12          document and the translation be marked as prosecution

    13          exhibit 75 and 76.  I am sorry.  I have been corrected.

    14          75 and 75A for the translation.

    15      JUDGE JAN:   The original I can understand but why are

    16          copies getting exhibited?

    17      MS McHENRY:   Well, in this particular case the only -- the

    18          copies are for your Honours' and the legal officer's

    19          convenience.  In this case this is a case where we

    20          actually have the original document, although I warn the

    21          court there are going to be other cases which are

    22          different, but in this case we have the original

    23          document which is being shown to the witness and then

    24          copies are being supplied to your Honours' convenience.

    25                Can you please show him 75?

Page 1010

     1                Mr Gotovac, you are being shown what has been

     2          marked for identification purposes as Prosecution

     3          Exhibit 75.  Can you look at that document that is next

     4          to you on the instrument, Mr Gotovac?

     5      A.  I can see it.

     6      Q.  Do you recognise what that is, sir?

     7      A.  Yes.  That is the release document of 30th August 1992

     8          from number 22.

     9      JUDGE JAN:   But it mentions the date 19th September?  Oh,

    10          that is his date of birth.  I beg your pardon.

    11      A.  Yes, that is my date of birth.

    12      MS McHENRY:   Mr Gotovac, is this the document you received

    13          when you were released from the camp?

    14      A.  Yes.

    15      Q.  If you know, whose signature is on the document?  Who

    16          signed it?

    17      A.  I assume that it is Mucic, but I can't see it that well,

    18          because he said:  "Village of Celebici?" I said:

    19          "Please, sir, I am not from Celebici.  I am from

    20          Viniste, near Homolje" and then he made the correction.

    21      JUDGE JAN:   Well --

    22      MS McHENRY:   I believe he was just explaining that Mr Mucic

    23          --

    24      JUDGE JAN:   If he did not see it, how can he identify the

    25          signatures?

Page 1011

     1      MS McHENRY:   Did anyone write or sign anything on the

     2          document while you were there, Mr Gotovac?

     3      A.  You mean at 22?  No.  The first time it was written that

     4          way.

     5      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   At the time you were released did

     6          anyone sign anything to release you?

     7      A.  I don't know how to explain you.  I just got a release

     8          paper, no other document.

     9      MS McHENRY:   Who gave you have the release paper?

    10      A.  Mucic, Zdravko Mucic gave it to me.  His nickname is

    11          Pavo.

    12      Q.  Did you have any discussion with Mr Mucic about what

    13          should be on the document?

    14      A.  No, I did not.

    15      Q.  Was there --

    16      A.  Except when he said Celebici, but I had a cousin in

    17          Celebici, so I told him I was not from Celebici.  I was

    18          from Viniste.  So he put in a correction.  That is all

    19          he did, nothing else.

    20      Q.  Thank you.  Your Honour, at this time I would move into

    21          evidence Prosecution Exhibit 75 and 75A, which is the

    22          translation.

    23      MS McMURREY:   The defence of Esad Landzo has no objections

    24          to that exhibit, your Honour.

    25      MR MORAN:   No objections, your Honour.

Page 1012

     1      MR O'SULLIVAN:  No objection, your Honour.

     2      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   There being no objection to the

     3          exhibits, they are admitted.

     4      MS McHENRY:   Thank you?

     5      A.  Can I thank the International Criminal Tribunal -- I

     6          would like to express my thankfulness for allowing me

     7          this opportunity to give my evidence here and I think

     8          that it is good that people know what I have gone

     9          through and what I have suffered, me and my family.

    10      MS McHENRY:   Okay.

    11      JUDGE JAN:   Were his sons also released along with him or

    12          did they just stay?  Just off the record.

    13      MS McHENRY:   Sir.  I do not know the answer to that

    14          question.

    15                Sir, when were your sons released from the camp?

    16      A.  One stayed seven months and the other one eight after

    17          me.  When I was released from Celebici to the sports

    18          hall in Konjic they were moved there and then they were

    19          released from there.

    20      Q.  One second, please.  No more questions, your Honour.

    21          Thank you.

    22      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   That is all you have for the witness?

    23      MS McHENRY:   Yes, your Honour.

    24      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   The witness is now available for

    25          cross-examination.

Page 1013

     1      MR O'SULLIVAN:   Your Honours, cross-examination will

     2          proceed in this way: first, counsel for Mr Mucic;

     3          second, counsel for Mr Landzo; third, counsel for

     4          Mr Delic; and fourth, counsel for Mr Delalic.

     5                     Cross-examination by MR GREAVES

     6      MR GREAVES:   May it please your Honour.

     7                Mr Gotovac, I want to ask you, please, about the

     8          time when you were released from the camp at Celebici.

     9          That was at the end of August of 1992.  Prior to that

    10          you had an interview with Mr Mucic; is that right?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      Q.  That was one of only a few occasions when you saw him?

    13      A.  Yes, one of the few occasions.

    14      Q.  And it is right, is it not, that you only saw him in the

    15          period shortly before your release?

    16      A.  Yes, not often, but I did see him then.

    17      Q.  And the only times that you saw him were in the month of

    18          August 1992?

    19      A.  In August 1992, on 29th August 1992.

    20      Q.  I am sorry, Mr Gotovac.  May I clarify, please, that you

    21          only saw Mr Mucic in the month of August 1992?

    22      A.  I saw him before, but not often.  On that occasion on

    23          29th August 1992 he was in number 22, inside the

    24          building.

    25      Q.  So that when you saw him in number 22, that was in the

Page 1014

     1          month of August of that year?

     2      A.  On 30th August 1992.

     3      Q.  And the day before your release you were interviewed by

     4          Mr Mucic in the presence of a lady secretary; is that

     5          right?

     6      A.  Yes.  Her name was Ismeta.  I don't know her last name.

     7          She was a typist.

     8      Q.  You say that she was a typist because she typed up what

     9          you were saying during the course of the interview; is

    10          that right?

    11      A.  Yes.  She used the typewriter.

    12      Q.  And the length of time that your interview took was

    13          about ten minutes; is that right?

    14      A.  Yes, even shorter than that.  It was a really very short

    15          interview.

    16      Q.  Just a formality; is that right?

    17      JUDGE JAN:   How would he know?

    18      A.  Well, since he did not recognise the questioning that

    19          was conducted by the man whose name is Miro Stenek, he

    20          didn't want to agree that I was questioned by him.  So

    21          he just asked me a couple of questions, and he said to

    22          his typist: "8", and then the doctors asked me: "What

    23          did you get?"  I said: "I don't know.  He said something

    24          8."  Then they said: "Well, it's good news.  You are

    25          going home", and that is what happened.  I was released

Page 1015

     1          the next day, on the 30th.

     2      Q.  Is it right that at about the same time that you were

     3          interviewed someone else that you know was also being

     4          interviewed, Nedjo Kuljanin?

     5      A.  Nedjo Kuljanin was also not questioned because he was in

     6          the hospital in Jablanica, because he had been injured.

     7          He was also assigned category 8.  After his turn it was

     8          my turn to go in.  We were together in number 22.

     9      Q.  Nedjo was also released at the same time as you; is that

    10          right?

    11      A.  Yes, on 30th August 1992.

    12      Q.  Were other detainees released on 30th August 1992?

    13      A.  Several remained after we left in 22.  There were 12

    14          beds there.  It was a small place.  They were wooden

    15          beds.

    16      Q.  Apart from you and Nedjo, were other people released at

    17          the same time as you, Mr Gotovac?

    18      A.  Yes.  Some people were released before me, Petko

    19          Mrkajic, the doctor; then Dr Grubac Petko, and then also

    20          a man by the name of Savo Djordjic.  I don't recall

    21          because I didn't know all of these people.  I don't know

    22          when they were released exactly.

    23      Q.  Even though you may not be able to recall the names of

    24          those released, can you recall how many people were

    25          released at about the same time as you?

Page 1016

     1      A.  That night Nedjo Kuljanin and myself and the ones that I

     2          mentioned just now, they were released before.  I mean

     3          the two doctors and Savo Djordjic, he was also released

     4          before me.

     5      Q.  Were there others whose names you did not know who were

     6          also released?

     7      A.  Well, because I did not know people's names and because

     8          I was very seriously ill, I was in bed all the time, and

     9          sometimes I would even pull the covers over my head.  I

    10          can't recall who was released when.  I remember

    11          precisely for these people but not for the others.

    12      Q.  Having been released, did you go back to your home

    13          village?

    14      A.  I spent a night at Nedjo Kuljanin's in Donje Selo and

    15          the next day I went slowly back to my village.

    16      Q.  Did Mr Mucic come to your village at all after you had

    17          been released?

    18      A.  No, he did not come to Vinjiste.

    19      Q.  Mr Gotovac, do you remember the first visit of the Red

    20          Cross to the camp in early August 1992?

    21      A.  Yes, I remember.  We were visited on 12th August 1992.

    22      Q.  And would you --

    23      A.  I have a document pertaining to that.  I think I handed

    24          it over.

    25      Q.  Is that the first visit that you can recall made by the

Page 1017

     1          Red Cross?

     2      A.  Yes, in the 22 and number 6, when I went from the 22 to

     3          the 6.

     4      Q.  In August 1992 would you accept that the conditions of

     5          feeding and provision of medicine improved?

     6      A.  Yes.  There were some medicines, and as for the food,

     7          well, we who were sick, maybe we got some more because

     8          we were so weak.

     9      Q.  Mr Gotovac, I would like to ask you now about the time

    10          of your detention, when you were arrested and taken to

    11          the camp.  When you were arrested, did those who were

    12          arresting you search you?

    13      A.  No, they did not search me, because a neighbour of mine,

    14          Emir Alic, he told me that someone who come in the

    15          morning and the village would be searched, and he told

    16          me to go to his place so he can give me shelter.  My

    17          younger son went to Dervo Bajic and Spasoje Miljevic.  I

    18          was here.  In the evening the police came.  They wore

    19          camouflage uniforms and white belts.  They arrested me

    20          and Spasoje and my younger son and they took us to

    21          Celebici.

    22      Q.  When you were arrested, did you have any items of value

    23          on you, such as a watch or money?

    24      A.  I did not have anything.

    25      Q.  Mr Gotovac, I would like you, please, to look at a short

Page 1018

     1          piece of video, one that we have already played to

     2          another witness, and tell me if there is anybody that

     3          you recognise on that video, please.

     4                Your Honours, it is the short piece of video that

     5          you have already seen with people on it.

     6          (Videotape played).

     7      A.  I see Mirko Kuljanin.  He is from Bradina.

     8      Q.  Is there anybody else that you recognise amongst those

     9          people on the film?

    10      A.  Please, my sight is not so good.  I can see people, but

    11          because my sight is so poor, I cannot recognise people.

    12      Q.  Thank you very much, Mr Gotovac.

    13      JUDGE JAN:   Just a minute.  When was this video obtained or

    14          prepared?

    15      MR GREAVES:   I am sorry, your Honour.  I did not hear what

    16          you said.

    17      JUDGE JAN:   When was this video prepared?

    18      A.  I don't know if this was taken in Celebici.

    19      JUDGE JAN:   When?

    20      MR GREAVES:  Your Honour, we believe it is on 20th August.

    21          In fact, if you look at the monitor now, you will see

    22          the date and indeed the time.

    23      JUDGE JAN:   And it was taken by whom?

    24      MR GREAVES:   By Mr Mucic and it was recovered from his home

    25          address in Vienna upon his arrest.  Does that help your

Page 1019

     1          Honour?

     2      JUDGE JAN:   Thank you.

     3      MR GREAVES:   My pleasure.

     4      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Ms McMurrey, I think it is for you.

     5      MS McMURREY:   Thank you, your Honour.

     6                     Cross-examination by MS McMURREY.

     7      MS McMURREY:   May it please the court.  Good day to you,

     8          Mr Gotovac.

     9      A.  Good day to you too.

    10      Q.  My name is Cynthia McMurrey and I am defence attorney

    11          for Esad Landzo.  On 22nd February 1996 you visited and

    12          talked with the investigators from the prosecution, did

    13          you not?

    14      A.  On 22nd?  Sorry.  I did not understand you.  What month

    15          are you referring to.

    16      Q.  On February 22nd, 1996?

    17      A.  Yes, in Temisvara.

    18      Q.  Before you came to testify here in The Hague someone

    19          from the Prosecutor's Office notified you that the

    20          defence attorneys would like to visit with you too, did

    21          they not?

    22      A.  Yes.  We spoke very briefly.

    23      Q.  And you refused to speak to anybody from the defence

    24          side, did you not?

    25      A.  Well, I was not very happy.  I avoid things like that,

Page 1020

     1          because my hearing is poor.  I did not have my hearing

     2          aid the way I have it now.

     3      Q.  In fact, you refused to give us the same courtesies that

     4          you offered the prosecution; is that not true?

     5      A.  No, I did not refuse.  I don't see what it is that I

     6          refused.

     7      Q.  You refused to talk to us, did you not?

     8      A.  I did not refuse.  I could not hear very well, but we

     9          did talk for some time very shortly.

    10      Q.  So if the prosecution told you that you refused to talk

    11          to us, would they be misrepresenting the facts?

    12      MS McHENRY:   Your Honour, may I object and --

    13      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Do you not think it is easier not to

    14          antagonise this witness.  Go on with whatever questions

    15          you have.

    16      MS McMURREY:   Gosh!  Your Honour, I do not know with all

    17          the questions I have that I can go through my

    18          cross-examination without antagonising.  I will do my

    19          best.

    20      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Better try not to.  It is safer for

    21          you.

    22      MS McMURREY:   I will try not to.

    23                Mr Gotovac, did you refresh your memory before

    24          testifying today with any document?

    25      A.  I don't know what documents you mean.  I gave all the

Page 1021

     1          documents that I had in my possession.

     2      Q.  I am specifically asking: did you re-read your prior

     3          statement that you made on February 22nd 1996?

     4      A.  Yes.  It took me a while to read it, but I did read

     5          through it, because my sight is not very good.

     6      Q.  So you are telling the court today that your hearing is

     7          not very good and your sight is not very good; is that

     8          what you are saying?

     9      A.  Well, it is my age.  I am 65 years old, and due to all

    10          the torture that I have been through this is not really

    11          very strange.

    12      Q.  Now, Mr Gotovac, when you were preparing for your

    13          testimony today you did meet with some people from the

    14          prosecutor's office, did you not?

    15      A.  Yes.

    16      Q.  Can you tell us who was present at that meeting?

    17      A.  I don't know what meetings you are talking about.  We

    18          just discussed some things here in the waiting room.

    19      Q.  Well, when you were discussing the things before you

    20          were testifying today in the waiting room, was -- let us

    21          say was Ms McHenry present?

    22      A.  Yes, she was, if we are now talking about the

    23          prosecutor.

    24      Q.  What is Ms McHenry's position?

    25      A.  Well, I guess she's the judge.

Page 1022

     1      Q.  Okay.  Thank you.  Did she meet with you when you were

     2          -- when you had this meeting with Ms McHenry, was your

     3          investigator there, the one you spoke to when you were

     4          in Bosnia?

     5      A.  The journalist, Branca, who spoke to me in Bosnia, she

     6          was not here.

     7      Q.  Okay.  Was it just you and Ms McHenry?  Is that what you

     8          are telling the court?

     9      A.  And the interpreter, Zivkovic.

    10      Q.  Thank you very much.  You testified before that -- I

    11          believe you were born in Konjic, were you not?

    12      A.  I was born in the village of Bjelovcina, about 8 kms

    13          from Konjic and I lived in Konjic.  I had an apartment

    14          there in Konjic.  I lived there for a long time, and

    15          when I retired, I went to live in the country in the

    16          village of Vinjiste and I built a summer house there,

    17          and I lived there.

    18      Q.  You lived in Vinjiste or did you live in Homolje?

    19      A.  It is fifteen minutes walk between the two villages.

    20      Q.  Which village did you have live in?

    21      A.  Very close neighbourhood, in Viniste.

    22      Q.  Thanks.  You are a Bosnian Serb national, are you not?

    23      A.  Yes.

    24      Q.  And you never claimed to be anything other then a

    25          Bosnian Serb, have you?

Page 1023

     1      A.  Well, nobody ever forced me.  I was never in a position

     2          to change anything.  I always was what I am.

     3      Q.  And, in fact, the March 1st 1992 referendum, where the

     4          Bosnians voted for their independence, you either voted

     5          or you could have voted in that election, could you not?

     6      A.  I don't really remember that referendum all that well.

     7          I don't remember where I was.  I didn't vote.  Nobody

     8          forced me to vote.

     9      Q.  But you could have voted, if you wanted to, could you

    10          not?

    11      A.  I could have, but nobody really told me about it.

    12      Q.  Mr Gotovac, are you a member of the SDS?

    13      A.  I always stated that I was not and nobody forced me to

    14          be a member because of my age.  Because of my age I was

    15          not involved in anything, and, in fact, I never in my

    16          entire life was involved in anything.  I was not a

    17          member.

    18      Q.  So you are saying you were not politically active

    19          whatsoever in 1992; is that your testimony?

    20      A.  No.

    21      Q.  Is that no, you were never active politically in 1992?

    22      A.  Yes, I was not active.

    23      Q.  Mr Gotovac, you were convicted of an offence before in

    24          Bosnia, were you not?

    25      A.  Never, no.

Page 1024

     1      Q.  Not even 40 years ago?

     2      MS McHENRY:   Your Honour, I must object.

     3      A.  Never.

     4      MS McHENRY:   A conviction 40 years ago can have no possible

     5          relevance to this case and I believe for protection of

     6          the witnesses, both under rule 75 and I believe 95, to

     7          bring up issues such as convictions that occurred 40

     8          years ago would be improper in most national systems

     9          that I am familiar with, and I certainly think it should

    10          be not permitted before this Tribunal.  There is a

    11          limit, I believe, to what the witness can fairly be

    12          cross-examined about, about what is relevant to their

    13          credibility for witnesses, and I object.

    14      MS McMURREY:   Your Honour, I will withdraw the question.

    15          Unless he stated he was convicted of perjury, you are

    16          absolutely right.  It would be irrelevant.

    17      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Tell me:  what is the business of the

    18          question?

    19      MS McMURREY:   Because I was informed he did have a prior

    20          conviction.  None of us --

    21      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   In respect of what?

    22      MS McMURREY:   I did not know what it was.

    23      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   You should not have offered it, unless

    24          you knew what the conviction was about.  You see, this

    25          is what counsel should learn to accept. You can go to

Page 1025

     1          justify what you are saying after that.  You should

     2          never have said it.  You cannot now go further to

     3          justify the type of conviction.  He has said no, he has

     4          no convictions.

     5      MS McMURREY:  I accept his answer, but because we were not

     6          allowed investigation of the witnesses ahead of time I

     7          have no way to go back and pull up any records from that

     8          area.  What this is is investigation by trial because we

     9          had no way to find out the background of these

    10          witnesses.

    11      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   I tell you we are now dealing with the

    12          objections to your question.

    13      MS McMURREY:   And I accept the objection.

    14      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Thank you.

    15      MS McMURREY:   I withdraw the question.  As I said, it is

    16          not relevant unless it was a perjury conviction and I

    17          had no idea.  So thank you.

    18                Mr Gotovac, you are a neighbour of Mirko Babic,

    19          are you not?

    20      A.  Yes.  We were born in Bjelovcina together and I left 25

    21          years ago.  So we did not meet much.  We did not work

    22          together.  He was a forester.  So since we did not meet

    23          we did not have an opportunity to find out much about

    24          one another.

    25      Q.  But you have remained friends over the years, have you

Page 1026

     1          not?  I am sorry.  I have did not hear the

     2          interpretation?

     3      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Actually, what was the answer?  I did

     4          not hear the interpretation.

     5      MS McMURREY:   I did not either.  I am not getting anything

     6          on interpretation.  We have lost it.

     7      THE INTERPRETER:  Can you hear me now?

     8      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Yes.

     9      THE INTERPRETER:  Can you have the witness repeat the

    10          question?

    11      MS McMURREY:   I think the question was: you and Mirko Babic

    12          have remained friends, though, have you not?

    13      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Yes.  That was the question.

    14      MS McMURREY:   Thank you?

    15      A.  We never quarrelled.

    16      JUDGE JAN:   That is a negative answer.

    17      MS McMURREY:   Mr Gotovac, you have seen Mirko Babic and you

    18          have visited with him since you left Bjelovcina 25 years

    19          ago, have you not?

    20      A.  I saw him seldom, because we were on very -- we had

    21          different kinds of jobs.

    22      Q.  Did you see Mirko Babic since you have been in The

    23          Hague?

    24      A.  Yes, I did.

    25      Q.  While you were visiting with Mirko Babic here in The

Page 1027

     1          Hague, you discussed your testimony with him, did you

     2          not?

     3      A.  No, I did not talk to him, but I saw him when he was

     4          going back to the airport to get on the plane to go

     5          home.  I did not have an opportunity to talk to him,

     6          because we each had our own rooms.

     7      Q.  So you are saying that since August of 1992 you have

     8          never talked about what happened at Celebici with

     9          Mr Babic; is that what you are telling this court today?

    10      A.  No, I did not see him.

    11      Q.  The question is that you are telling this court that you

    12          have never discussed what happened at Celebici with

    13          Mr Babic since August of 1992?

    14      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   If he says he has not seen him, how

    15          could he have discussed it with him?

    16      MS McMURREY:   Your Honour, I am just not clear whether he

    17          is talking about whether he has seen him right now.  My

    18          question goes back to August of 1992, and I would like

    19          an answer from him whether he has talked to Mirko Babic

    20          about what happened in Celebici since August of 1992,

    21          not just since he has been in The Hague.

    22      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Since when they were incarcerated

    23          together, is it?

    24      MS McMURREY:   Yes, your Honour.

    25      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Your question is valid.

Page 1028

     1      A.  No.  I had no opportunity.  He was not with me.

     2      MS McMURREY:   Since August of 1992; is that correct?

     3      A.  I stand by it.

     4      Q.  Okay.  Thank you very much.  Now you --

     5      A.  You are welcome.

     6      Q.  You said on May 22nd your sons were arrested and taken

     7          away; is that correct?

     8      A.  The older one, and the younger one was taken with me.

     9      Q.  What are your son's names?

    10      A.  Danilo and Zoran Gotovac.

    11      Q.  I am sorry.  I did not get the second name?

    12      A.  Zoran.

    13      Q.  Thank you.  On the next day --

    14      A.  You are welcome --

    15      Q.  -- you said that a neighbour of yours, Mr Emir Alic,

    16          invited you to his home to hide out; is that correct?

    17      A.  Yes, yes, that is correct.  He said: "Let this wild

    18          thing pass", and I didn't know what he meant by "wild

    19          thing".  So I did go there.

    20      Q.  Emir Alic: is he Muslim, Croatian or Serbian?

    21      A.  Muslim.

    22      Q.  And he was one of your neighbours; is that correct?

    23      A.  Yes, yes.

    24      Q.  You claim that he is living in Libya today.  Is that

    25          what you are telling this court?

Page 1029

     1      A.  He left shortly thereafter, shortly after I came from

     2          the prison, and he had been there before.

     3      Q.  But the truth is that he is still in the Konjic area

     4          right now, is it not?

     5      A.  I really don't know.  I have not heard from anyone, so I

     6          don't know.

     7      Q.  You said you were picked up in an armoured car.  Is that

     8          what you claim?

     9      A.  It was a van without windows.

    10      Q.  Was it like that vehicle that was shown to you in the

    11          video earlier?

    12      A.  I did not see that.

    13      Q.  On the video --

    14      A.  But it was all enclosed.  You could not see except up

    15          front, where the driver was, but in the back you

    16          couldn't see anything.

    17      Q.  Let me ask you about your friends in your village.  Most

    18          of the other Serbs in your village had weapons, did they

    19          not?

    20      A.  I really do not know.  I was not meddling in these

    21          things.  I was not paying attention to what was going

    22          on.  I was working my land and minding my own business.

    23      Q.  So are you just farming your home now?

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  Now, Mr Gotovac, you know someone named Dusko Bendjo, do

Page 1030

     1          you not?

     2      A.  Yes, I know him.

     3      Q.  In fact, you mentioned his name earlier today, did you

     4          not?

     5      A.  Yes, I did.

     6      Q.  You knew he was the Bosnian Serb responsible for

     7          distributing the arms amongst the SDS members, did you

     8          not?

     9      A.  I could not know that.  He was in Bjelovcina and I was

    10          in Vinjiste, so I could not know, plus I was not

    11          interested.

    12      Q.  You were aware that the military police had come through

    13          your village and made an announcement for everybody to

    14          turn over their arms, did they not?

    15      A.  No, I did not know that.  The military police found me

    16          at Emir's house, and they detained me and took me to

    17          Celebici, so I don't know if they came.  I don't know

    18          about that.

    19      Q.  But you do know that the people that arrested you had

    20          the white belts on, and they were military police.  They

    21          weren't Muslim forces, were they?

    22      A.  I don't know.  They had white belts but I don't know

    23          what forces they belonged to.

    24      Q.  Now, when you were at Celebici you saw the guards in

    25          Celebici, but you also saw members of the HVO, TO and

Page 1031

     1          the military police, did you not?

     2      A.  There were some HVO people, because they had the

     3          chequerboard on their sleeves and the other ones wore

     4          lilies on their sleeves.

     5      Q.  But they were all visible at Celebici, were they not?

     6      A.  I did not see them much.  There was no light in the

     7          hangar.  Whoever came in, you could not recognise them.

     8          Those who were younger may have seen better, but I

     9          couldn't see much.

    10      Q.  That brings me to another question: you know, and you

    11          have told this court already, I believe, that in May of

    12          1992 there was no electricity after dark at Celebici,

    13          was there?

    14      A.  Not in the beginning,.  We were 22, and number 6, not at

    15          all.  When I went to number 22 as a patient, we did not

    16          turn on the lights, but if the guards or somebody else

    17          would walk in, they would turn it on.

    18      Q.  So you were always in the dark in 22 and in hangar

    19          number 6, is that is correct?

    20      A.  No.  In the hangar always in the dark and when I was in

    21          22 as a patient in the second part there was light.  In

    22          the first part there was no light.

    23      Q.  And it is your testimony, of course, today earlier, that

    24          you were in the infirmary, dispensary, building number

    25          22, from early July through August 30th; is that your

Page 1032

     1          testimony?

     2      A.  Yes.

     3      Q.  Thank you.

     4      A.  Number 22.

     5      Q.  Thank you.  You mentioned that when you were brought

     6          into number 22 on May 23rd that you met another prisoner

     7          named Spasoje Miljevic.  I am sorry.  I massacre these

     8          names.

     9      A.  Miljevic.

    10      Q.  You did not testify whether he came with you in the car

    11          or not, did you?

    12      A.  I saw them when they stepped out of the vehicle, because

    13          I could not see them inside, and then I said: "You came

    14          in the same vehicle?"

    15      Q.  So he came in the same armoured car at the same time on

    16          the same day that you did; is that right?

    17      A.  Yes, on 23rd May 1992.

    18      Q.  You also testified earlier that part of the mistreatment

    19          that you had seen at Celebici was Slobodan Babic; is

    20          that what you testified?

    21      A.  When he was being arrested -- when he was arrested, he

    22          couldn't -- his eyesight was damaged, and he could only

    23          moan, and he was taken away, and Petko Grubac claims

    24          that he died in 8th March, school.

    25      Q.  But when you arrived in Celebici, Slobodan Babic, was he

Page 1033

     1          in building number 22 with you?

     2      A.  He was several days, maybe up to five days.  I can't

     3          recall precisely, because it was so tightly packed.  We

     4          could only hear him.  He was moaning, and I don't know

     5          how to call the sounds, but it was very difficult to

     6          see, because it was a small room with a lot of people in

     7          it.

     8      Q.  The truth is that Mr Slobodan Babic was beaten before

     9          you have ever arrived in Celebici, was he not?

    10      A.  Yes, before, before, when he was being detained.

    11      Q.  And you know or could have known from the others that he

    12          was beaten at Radava and not in Celebici; is that right?

    13      A.  That is what Mirko Babic said, because they were brought

    14          together to Konjic to the hall in Konjic, where they

    15          were separated.

    16      Q.  So you know for a fact that Slobodan Babic was beaten

    17          before he ever arrived in Celebici; is that right?

    18      A.  Yes.

    19      Q.  Havala.

    20      A.  You are welcome.

    21      Q.  Now you described building number 22.  At the same time

    22          that you were in there on May 23rd, you were -- it was

    23          not used as an infirmary or a dispensary, was it?  It

    24          was a holding place, was it not?

    25      A.  Looking at the pumps and hoses, it looked like a

Page 1034

     1          fire-fighting equipment storage room.

     2      Q.  But basically people were just placed in this building

     3          until they had a chance to be interviewed by the

     4          authorities to determine what their status was at the

     5          camp; is that correct?

     6      A.  I honestly don't know.

     7      Q.  But you had an interview while you were in building

     8          number 22, did you not?

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  And after that interview you were moved to --

    11      A.  But only briefly.

    12      Q.  Yes, and they asked you important questions like were

    13          you a members of the SDS and did you have arms; is that

    14          right?

    15      A.  I don't recall about the arms.  I always said the same.

    16          I did not, and so nobody forced me.

    17      Q.  I am not asking whether anybody forced you.  I just was

    18          trying to ask what kind of questions were asked of you.

    19          On that day that you had your interview you said you

    20          signed a statement, did you not?

    21      A.  I signed something, but I don't know what it was.  Two

    22          young men showed up when I was questioned and they asked

    23          me a few more questions, and then they told me: "You

    24          don't recall this?"  I said "I don't." They said: "Sign

    25          this", and I did but I don't know what.  I don't know

Page 1035

     1          what it was.

     2      Q.  You said you did not know what this document was you

     3          signed because you did not have your glasses with you;

     4          is that correct?

     5      A.  I did not have glasses and I could not see, so I don't

     6          know what the document was.

     7      Q.  During your entire stay at Celebici you did not get any

     8          new glasses either, did you?

     9      JUDGE JAN:   How could he get them?

    10      A.  No, I did not.

    11      MS McMURREY:   You were not given a hearing-aid during the

    12          whole time you were at Celebici, were you?

    13      A.  No.

    14      Q.  Your Honours, are we quitting today at 5.30 or at 6?  It

    15          will just determine whether I play a videotape now or

    16          whether I save it.  Do you have any preference for today

    17          or should I just go on with some questions?

    18      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   We are closing any time now.

    19      MS McMURREY:   I will just go with a few questions then.

    20          Thank you.

    21                You talked about Spasoje Miljevic being beaten

    22          while you were in number 22; is that correct?

    23      A.  Yes.

    24      Q.  And when you say that he was beaten, all you know for a

    25          fact from your own personal knowledge is that he was

Page 1036

     1          taken out by some guards and he was brought back in the

     2          same condition that he left in.  Is that what your

     3          testimony is?

     4      A.  No, he was not in the same condition.

     5      Q.  Havala.

     6      A.  You are welcome.

     7      Q.  Now in May of 1992 this person, Esad Landzo, or Zenga

     8          that you have referred to many times through your

     9          testimony today, he was not present or anywhere around

    10          building number 22, was he?

    11      A.  I was seriously ill when I came from number 6.  I only

    12          heard him once, and I recognised the voice, and I could

    13          not see, because the door was closed.

    14      JUDGE JAN:   He was in building number 22 twice, first when

    15          he went there.  Then he was moved to building number 6.

    16          Then he again after he was injured he again went to

    17          building number 22.  So you have to specify to what

    18          period you are referring.

    19      MS McMURREY:  You are absolutely right.  I am sorry.  I

    20          forget.

    21                The first time you were in building number 22,

    22          when you were waiting to be interviewed, before you went

    23          to hangar number 6; you have never saw Mr Landzo in May,

    24          did you?

    25      A.  No, I did not.  The first few days I did not.

Page 1037

     1      Q.  Havala.

     2      A.  You are welcome.

     3      Q.  In fact, you did not really see Mr Landzo until the

     4          middle part of June, after you had been moved to hangar

     5          number 6; is that not right?

     6      A.  That is right, the middle of June.  That is when my turn

     7          came for this torture.

     8      Q.  Thank you.  You testified that on May 26th, when you

     9          were in hangar number 22, a group of prisoners from

    10          Bradina were brought in.  Is that not what you said?

    11      A.  Yes.  You could hear moans.  The Golgotha that we barely

    12          survived.  It was horrible.

    13      Q.  You were in building number 22 at the time, right, and

    14          those prisoners were not brought there; is that correct?

    15      A.  That was Number 9, number 6, something like that.

    16      Q.  So it is your testimony to this court that the prisoners

    17          you are talking about from Bradina were taken to tunnel

    18          9 or hangar number 6, but they did not come to building

    19          22; is that correct?

    20      A.  I don't know.  I don't know the people, so I wouldn't

    21          know.  It was so packed and it was so dark, but for the

    22          most part they were in numbers 9 and 6 and in some

    23          tunnel.  I don't know where that tunnel was.

    24      Q.  Now, you testified that earlier that you had told Ms

    25          McHenry that you cannot hear so well; is that right?

Page 1038

     1      A.  Yes, I don't hear that well.  It is better now with

     2          these earphones, but otherwise it's not so good.

     3      Q.  It is your testimony that on May 26th you heard these

     4          people in tunnel Number 9 or hangar number 6 singing

     5          Cetnik songs and using Muslim and Ustasha greetings, did

     6          you not?

     7      A.  Yes, I did hear, and they were singing songs, but I

     8          don't know what songs they were, but you could hear them

     9          singing, and then somebody is in front of them and says

    10          "that" and then they repeat after that.  So "ready" and

    11          "Praise the Lord", something religious.  I could not

    12          recognise that very well.

    13      Q.  Well, that brings to mind another question: you say on

    14          May 26th you knew that the prisoners came from Bradina,

    15          but the next night another group of prisoners were

    16          brought in on May 27th and you did not know where they

    17          were from.  What's the difference?  How did you know the

    18          ones from Bradina and you did not know the ones the next

    19          night?

    20      A.  Bradina, that we found out in number 6 because some were

    21          moved from number 6 to Number 9 and the other way, so

    22          then we heard from them that it was on 26th, 27th May of

    23          1992.

    24      Q.  So your testimony about hearing the people from Bradina

    25          on May 26th is a result of your discussions with the

Page 1039

     1          other prisoners after you got to hangar number 6; is

     2          that not right?

     3      A.  Yes.

     4      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Ms McHenry --

     5      MS McMURREY:   McMurrey.  We are all Irish or Scottish.

     6      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   I think this would be a convenient

     7          place to stop now, so tomorrow morning you will

     8          continue, instead of hurrying over your

     9          cross-examination.

    10      MS McMURREY:   Thank you.

    11                Thank you, Mr Gotovac.

    12      A.  You are welcome:  thank you.

    13      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Before we rise I think there are a few

    14          things we want to dispose of.  Remember we have these

    15          witnesses protecting, protective measures and we have

    16          not indicated resolution of the argument.  Now to make

    17          matters tidy so that you will be familiar with how to

    18          deal with the witnesses, we have considered the

    19          arguments on both sides and you remember we had two sets

    20          of motions:  one, the first one, where you had A, B, C,

    21          D, E and F; then the second in which you have M to N.

    22                Now the second motion -- we took both of them

    23          together -- the second one you still are investigating,

    24          as you admitted, that somebody went to -- somebody was

    25          trying to investigate about witnesses in this Celebici

Page 1040

     1          case.  That was the anxiety and the fear about those

     2          witnesses M to N.

     3                Now the other witnesses, witnesses C-B, C, D, E and

     4          F, we categorise them, and the category we have, the

     5          first category of witnesses which dealt mainly with the

     6          question of those who we certify.

     7                There were those which we felt did not really need

     8          complete anonymity.  They did not really need a closed

     9          session, although perhaps they might require

    10          some image-distorting or voice-altering devices to enable them to be heard, but

    11          with respect to witness C, whose evidence involved

    12          sexual assault on him, we felt he should testify in

    13          closed session.

    14                Now witnesses D, E, F and G, up to M: we regard

    15          them to be able to testify in open session where their

    16          names and identity will be disclosed and, as I said,

    17          with image distoring and voice-altering devices to enable cross-examination

    18          relating to the identification which will not be allowed

    19          as long as they are cross-examined, but they should not

    20          be cross-examined relating to their identity and their

    21          names.

    22                Now, the witness B was a most anxious one.  We

    23          have discovered that in all the prosecution's view the

    24          of witness B is that he does not want to meet the

    25          accused persons, although he knows that they cannot

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     1          identify him by name merely.  So even if he disclosed

     2          his name, they would not identify him.

     3                Now the prosecution has told us that the witness does not

     4          want to see the accused persons and also does not want

     5          them to see him.  So merely indicating his name in the

     6          circumstances will almost amount to anonymity, because

     7          they cannot identify him, even if they saw him, except

     8          other factors are there.

     9                But the reason why this anonymity is being

    10          deserved the prosecution said is on a telephone

    11          conversation.  He learned that this witness is likely to

    12          suffer from real traumatisation if he saw them or if

    13          they saw him, whichever way.

    14                I think in that respect the only evidence of that

    15          is the idea of the prosecutor and nothing more.

    16          Traumatisation is a medical condition which cannot be

    17          offered in that manner.  So we did not think it is

    18          sufficient evidence to support that claim.

    19                Now, the suggestion that the witness should testify

    20          from the remote room was refused, because it might make

    21          matters more complicated, because the right of the

    22          accused persons to cross-examine him under Article

    23          21(4)(e) is very clear.  Apart from that, the nature of

    24          his evidence has not been disclosed, and none of the

    25          tests which have been formulated in the Tadic case,

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     1          which we all know, have not been applied to this

     2          witness.  So in all the circumstances it is difficult to

     3          justify the type of anonymity which has been given to

     4          him.  So we rejected the prosecution's application.

     5                In order not to leave him bare, we still think he

     6          will testify in the courtroom to enable the accused

     7          persons to see him, but a screen will be built around

     8          him to prevent him from seeing the accused persons.

     9          That is the trauma that is avoided.  That might help

    10          him, but the accused persons are entitled to

    11          cross-examine him and they are entitled not to lose

    12          their rights merely because he claims to be

    13          traumatised.  So we will soon hand down our decisions

    14          but this is in the main line the disposition of the

    15          application before us.

    16                Now the next thing is we have a few announcements

    17          about a short vacation.  You know that Easter is

    18          approaching, and we are not likely to sit on 28th and

    19          31st March, and we will also not be sitting from 4th to

    20          about 11th or so of April.  We will resume sitting on

    21          14th April, but in between we will still be sitting.

    22          Just to give you advance information so that you will

    23          tidy your timetable and your arrangements.

    24                So the Trial Chamber will now rise until

    25          tomorrow.


Page 1043

     1      (5.35 pm)

     2              (Hearing adjourned until 10.00 tomorrow morning)

     3                                --ooOoo--