Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1460

1 Tuesday, 1st April, 1997

2 --- Upon commencing at 10 a.m. (Open session)

3 Mr Stevan Gligorevic (continued)

4 Examined by Mr Ostberg (continued)

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

6 I hope you had a good Easter break. We are a refreshed

7 to start again. Let us have the witness then.

8 JUDGE JAN: Actually I am responsible for the court sitting

9 late this morning. I was not aware that the clocks had

10 been put forward by one hour. So I apologies.

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly remind the witness he is on his

12 oath.

13 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you that you are still under

14 oath.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr Ostberg, it is for you.

16 MR OSTBERG: Thank you. Good morning, Mr Gligorevic.

17 I just have a few questions to put to you before I pass

18 you on to the defence for cross-examination. In your

19 statement last Thursday you enumerated a lot of people,

20 several people who had been killed during your stay in

21 Hangar Number 6. What I would do this morning is just

22 ask you to tell us what you have seen or heard about the

23 death of some of these people. I would ask you to use

24 the sketch which you manufactured when you were examined

25 by the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor, if

Page 1461

1 I ask these questions to you. If we can have the sketch

2 on the ELMO?

3 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, excuse me. I have an objection,

4 number one, to the form of the questions. It has been

5 asked and answered. Number 2, he stated he wanted the

6 witness to answer what he has seen or heard. I would

7 like clarification of whether he was in the hangar and

8 actually saw it or whether it occurred outside the

9 hangar so we know whether he had personal knowledge

10 whether he saw it or not.

11 MR OSTBERG: That will come out during his questions.

12 MS McMURREY: It would prevent me having to rise if it were

13 clarified ahead of time. That is all I am asking.

14 Thank you.

15 A. (In interpretation): As for the killings --

16 MR OSTBERG: Just a moment. Can we have the light on the

17 ELMO? I do not know how we do this thing. Okay.

18 Mr Gligorevic, I want to ask you the questions from the

19 names you put down on this sketch. We have used it so

20 far for you to point out where you lived and where you

21 sat, and where the door was, etc. On this sketch you

22 have put down some names. I will question you going out

23 from these names on the sketch, and you can clarify to

24 the court who these persons are which you have named on

25 your sketch. Let us start close to the door on the top

Page 1462

1 of your sketch and then we see the name of Keljo. Who

2 is this? Who is Keljo?

3 A. Keljo was the last victim in the Celebici camp. He was

4 there until the very -- from the very beginning. He was

5 beaten very seriously and he just lay down for days, and

6 his ribs had been broken. That's what I heard. Then

7 his health mended, and then on that day at around

8 5.00 am he was called out by a guard.

9 Q. Which one? Which guard, if you can tell us? Can you

10 tell us which guard called him out?

11 A. I don't know his name.

12 Q. Very good. Go on.

13 A. He called him out and he also called out two or three

14 other detainees. Among them were Mladen Mrkajic and a

15 lad from Celebici. His nickname was Garo Kenesevic. I

16 don't know what his first name was. He called them out

17 to have a cigarette with him. It was about 5.00 am. It

18 was not full daylight. Then a shot was heard and Garo

19 and Mladen ran in and they were holding their hair and

20 they said Keljo was killed. As far as I know the bullet

21 went through his head. I didn't see that. Then the

22 bullet penetrated the side wall --

23 MS McMURREY: I object to his testifying. He said he did

24 not see this. How can he testify from personal

25 knowledge what happened to the body.

Page 1463

1 MR OSTBERG: He heard the shot and he now tells us about

2 the bullet.

3 MS McMURREY: But he just said he did not see it, so how

4 does he know about the bullet.

5 JUDGE JAN: What is his own position in this matter?

6 MR OSTBERG: He is close to the door, top of the drawing,

7 next to the door. His name is Keljo. I do not know

8 what this objection turns out to be. What do you object

9 to?

10 MS McMURREY: I object to him testifying from no personal

11 knowledge. He said he did not receive. If he saw,

12 fine. If he did not, if he heard it from someone else,

13 and he is just testifying from what someone else has

14 told him, then he has no personal knowledge. I am

15 objecting to lack of personal knowledge in this area.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He did not say someone told him, did

17 he? He did not say someone told him.

18 MS McMURREY: He says "I did not see".

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He did not say someone told him

20 everything.

21 MR OSTBERG: So it is quite clear to me what he did see.

22 If you allow me to go on and question, we will know

23 exactly what he saw.

24 MS McMURREY: Well, I would like to know what he saw, but

25 if he did not see, I am asking the court not to allow

Page 1464

1 him to answer.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually when you raise an objection,

3 you wait for a ruling whether the objection is upheld or

4 not. Is that not the practice in your jurisdiction

5 where you have practised?

6 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour, that is the practice.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Then you wait until it is either

8 overruled or upheld. That is the normal thing.

9 MS McMURREY: Okay.

10 MR OSTBERG: May I proceed, your Honour?


12 MR OSTBERG: Thank you. First tell us what is the --

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The objection you raised was overruled

14 --

15 MS McMURREY: Thank you, your Honour.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: -- because he did not say anybody told

17 him anything.

18 MR OSTBERG: You told us that two people came running into

19 the hangar. What about this -- first what happened to

20 the person who was called out? Did somebody bring him

21 back in or did you just hear something somebody told you

22 or whatever?

23 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object to the

24 leading form of the question.

25 MR OSTBERG: I cannot see this is leading.

Page 1465

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What happened to the gentleman who was

2 called out? Do you know what happened to him?

3 A. Do you mean Keljo?


5 A. Yes. His body remained outside and I don't know where

6 the body was taken later.

7 Q. Did you see his body outside?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You did not. What is the name of this person, full name

10 of Keljo?

11 A. It's slipped my mind, but I knew his name because he'd a

12 cafe in Konjic. He was a well-known person, but I did

13 not know him from before. It's slipped my mind. I am

14 sorry.

15 Q. His last name slipped your mind. Was Keljo a nickname

16 or his first name?

17 A. It was his nickname.

18 Q. Thank you. The next name you have put on this sketch

19 also on the top of the sketch is Zeljko?

20 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: I am sorry. I would like to ask a

21 question. Could you tell us if you saw again alive this

22 person called Keljo?

23 A. No. After that I did not see him.

24 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: Thank you.

25 MR OSTBERG: Okay, Mr Gligorevic. Can we go on with the

Page 1466

1 name Zeljko on your sketch? Can you recall the full

2 name of this person?

3 A. Yes, Zeljko Cecez.

4 Q. Will you tell the court what happened to him?

5 A. He was the second victim in Celebici. The first victim

6 was Milorad Kuljanin from Bradina. I knew him very

7 well. He was a pupil of mine. He was killed from a

8 firearm in the morning right behind the hangar, and the

9 same evening Zjelko Cecez was taken out at night. He

10 was beaten.

11 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object. He has no

12 personal knowledge. He says he was taken out. Did he

13 not see what happened outside the hangar. If he has a

14 statement as to whether he came back in in a different

15 condition, that is a different story. He has no

16 personal knowledge.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: How did you know he was beaten?

18 A. I know because he was unable to get in there on his

19 own. Two of the detainees went outside. They were

20 called by the guards and they carried him in. He was

21 moaning. He was given some water and then he quietened

22 down. In the morning we saw that he was dead.

23 MR OSTBERG: Thank you.

24 MS McMURREY: Thank you.

25 MR OSTBERG: Can you remember who called him out?

Page 1467

1 A. I think it was one of the guards, the guard commander

2 called Kravar.

3 Q. Thank you. If we go clockwise, the next name on your

4 sketch is Cedo. Who is that?

5 A. He was a teacher in Celebici. He was taken in later.

6 He was somewhere in Konjic. He was not there for a long

7 time, just a few days. He was taken out to be

8 questioned. I don't know if he was beaten or not, but

9 he was threatened, and he was very scared. We are

10 colleagues, because he also was a teacher. I don't know

11 what happened that night. My assumption is that he --

12 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object. It calls

13 for speculation on his part. He says he does not know

14 what happened to him.

15 JUDGE JAN: Assumption.

16 MR OSTBERG: Thank you.

17 MS McMURREY: I was just waiting for my ruling.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. All right.

19 MS McMURREY: Thank you.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ask another question.

21 MR OSTBERG: Do you remember his full name?

22 A. Yes. Cedo Avramovic.

23 Q. If we follow clockwise again and go down to the lower

24 part of your sketch, we see the name Simo. Will you

25 tell the court what happened to Simo and who Simo was?

Page 1468

1 A. His name is Simo Jovanovic. I knew him from before,

2 because he used to be an offical in the municipality in

3 Konjic. He was called out twice. The first time when

4 he was called out he was beaten very severely and

5 brought back.

6 Q. And again before objection comes, how do you know that

7 he was beaten outside?

8 A. We saw and we heard. We heard the blows, the moans, and

9 then when he got in, he was black and blue. He could

10 hardly walk. He just lay there for a few days. So it

11 was obvious that he had been beaten. Then after several

12 nights, when he was taken out again, the same thing

13 happened, as with Cecez, more or less. He was carried

14 in by two of the detainees and the same thing happened

15 again. He moaned for a while, and then they gave him

16 some water, and he got quiet, and in the morning he was

17 dead.

18 Q. Thank you. Can you remember who called him out?

19 A. It was Zenga.

20 Q. Thank you. On your sketch under the name Simo there are

21 some other names that I cannot clearly read. Can you

22 read them yourself and tell us what they are?

23 A. We have the first name and the second name of one man,

24 Bosko Samoukovic.

25 Q. You have an arrow from a circle with a cross in it.

Page 1469

1 This arrow, what does it point to?

2 A. It points to the name of that man, who sat there.

3 Q. Okay. The name of him was?

4 A. Bosko Samoukovic.

5 Q. Will you tell the court what happened to him?

6 A. Yes. He was the --

7 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I am sorry. That question was

8 asked and answered on Thursday. It is clearly in the

9 record?

10 A. -- victim.

11 JUDGE JAN: About Bosko's case.

12 MR OSTBERG: Yes. I can accept that. Then we follow up to

13 the next name if we go clockwise and we find the name of

14 Scepo. Will you tell us what his full name was? Who is

15 this Scepo?

16 A. Scepo Gotovac.

17 Q. Can you tell the court what happened to him?

18 A. He was also called out at night and taken out, and a

19 similar thing happened as with Simo Jovanovic. In other

20 words, he was taken out and he came back beaten, and

21 then the second night when he was taken out, they beat

22 him to death out there and his body was not carried

23 inside the hangar at all.

24 Q. Do you remember who called him out this first time or

25 the second time, or both?

Page 1470

1 A. I think it was also Zenga.

2 Q. Both times?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. This concludes my questions going out from

5 this sketch.


7 MR OSTBERG: Who is Zenga?

8 A. Esad Landzo, a guard. Can I just add something?

9 MR OSTBERG: Yes, please.

10 A. On this sketch here there is one victim who had to be

11 here. It is Nedjo Magazin, but he somehow is not

12 included in the sketch.

13 Q. His name was, so we get it clear?

14 A. Nedjo Magazin.

15 Q. Will you tell the court something about what happened to

16 him?

17 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object to this

18 line of questioning. This person has nothing to do with

19 this case. He is not in the indictment. He is not

20 relevant to this questioning whatsoever.

21 MR OSTBERG: I think we will find out if he was in the

22 indictment or not. That is why I asked him to be

23 identified as well as he can.

24 MS McMURREY: He is not in the indictment. That name is

25 not in the indictment.

Page 1471

1 MR OSTBERG: I cannot recall. Okay. I withdraw any

2 questions about this person.

3 Now I have just one question left for you,

4 Mr Gligorevic. You were released and you were brought

5 to Musala, and I will ask: were you ever charged with

6 anything you had done before you were brought to

7 Celebici in the time you stayed there.

8 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, that was asked and answered

9 early on Thursday. Because he was confused. He thought

10 he meant a criminal charge. It is clearly in the record

11 already.

12 MR OSTBERG: I am not certain of that. Of this exact

13 question I cannot remember putting to him.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You may put your question to him.

15 MR OSTBERG: Were you ever charged with anything you had

16 done before you were brought to Celebici during the time

17 when you stayed in the next detention centre.

18 MS McMURREY: I withdraw my question. It was not in

19 Musala. It was Celebici.

20 A. No.

21 MR OSTBERG: Thank you very much. That concludes my

22 questions to Mr Gligorevic.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Now in what form is defence taking its

24 cross-examination, Mr O'Sullivan?

25 MR O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, first will be counsel for

Page 1472

1 Mr Mucic, followed by counsel for Mr Delic, third,

2 counsel for Mr Landzo, and fourth, counsel for

3 Mr Delalic.


5 Cross-examination by Mr Greaves

6 MR GREAVES: Good morning, your Honour. Thank you very

7 much. Mr Gligorevic, I want to ask you, please, about

8 the time of your arrest in 1992. You have told us that

9 you personally were searched and items were removed from

10 you. Is that the case for all those who were detained

11 the same time as you?

12 MS McMURREY: I have this beeping in my headset. Does

13 anybody else have that?


15 MS McMURREY: I just did not know what it was. Thank you.

16 MR GREAVES: Peace at last! I wonder whether the witness

17 wants me to repeat the question or not?

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think it is fairer. Yes.

19 MR GREAVES: Mr Gligorevic, I am going to repeat what

20 I asked you so you have it in mind what I asked you.

21 You have told His Honour and His Honour's colleagues

22 when you were detained in May 1992 you were personally

23 searched and items were removed from you. Is it the

24 case that all others with you who were detained were

25 similarly searched and had property removed from them?

Page 1473

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So that when you were taken from there to Celebici, you

3 effectively, all of you, only had the clothes you stood

4 up -- the clothes you had on with you?

5 A. Yes. Trousers, shirts and shoes.

6 Q. And any valuables had been removed by the people who

7 were detaining you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Next I wish to ask you about the situation concerning

10 food, which you have told us about last week. Is it the

11 case that after the end of July the situation concerning

12 food improved considerably?

13 A. Yes. The situation got better later on.

14 Q. Whatever the position was as far as food in June and

15 July was concerned, you cannot say why that situation

16 arose?

17 A. Well, I don't know precisely. Whether it was because

18 they had no food or because they didn't want to give us

19 any, I don't know.

20 Q. I would like now to turn to the question of Pavo Mucic

21 and the times when you first saw him. Is it the case

22 that because of the passage of time and your personal

23 condition you find remembering dates really very

24 difficult?

25 A. Yes, because I was there at the very top of the hall.

Page 1474

1 The hall itself was quite large -- the hangar, I mean.

2 I don't recall exactly the dates. I know that he came

3 seldom and that he came regularly when certain groups

4 were to be transferred to Musala from Celebici. I don't

5 know when that was exactly. I can't tell you that, and

6 I swore that I would speak the truth, so I wouldn't want

7 to guess.

8 Q. That is very fair. I want him to understand, please,

9 that there is no criticism intended as to his being

10 unable to remember dates.

11 Would you accept, Mr Gligorevic, that when you try

12 to fix a date, you may be wrong as to that date by quite

13 some time?

14 A. Well, I do remember some dates very clearly, but for

15 those dates that I am not sure of, I am not mentioning

16 them at all.

17 Q. I want to try to get your help, please, Mr Gligorevic,

18 about the date when you first saw Mr Mucic. I want to

19 remind you that you have told us that your transfer to

20 Musala was on 4th October 1992. Had other groups been

21 transferred prior to 4th October, other groups of

22 prisoners?

23 A. Yes. Quite a few groups were transferred.

24 Q. Would he accept that the date when the first group was

25 transferred from Celebici to Musala was somewhere around

Page 1475

1 20th August 1992?

2 A. No. It was much earlier than that.

3 Q. Early in August?

4 A. No. I think that the first groups went there in June,

5 the elderly people.

6 Q. It is a question of you think that is the date, but you

7 may be mistaken as to it; is that right?

8 A. Well, I am not sure. I know that groups did leave, but

9 whether Mr Pavo was there from the first group onwards,

10 I don't know about that.

11 Q. Would he accept that the first time that he saw Mr Mucic

12 in the camp would be approximately the beginning of

13 August 1992?

14 A. I don't know, so I can't agree to your statement.

15 Q. You cannot agree or disagree, can you, Mr Gligorevic?

16 A. Yes. That is right.

17 Q. Thank you. As far as information about who was or who

18 was not the Commander of the camp at a given time, it is

19 right, is it not, that you depend on information from

20 others as much as anything?

21 A. Well, it is more or less the situation. I did not know

22 Mr Mucic from before, so I did not pay much attention.

23 To be frank, this was not our primary concern at all.

24 Q. The position is that you saw him very infrequently in

25 the hangar?

Page 1476

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Maybe four, five times at most?

3 A. I don't know the exact number of times, but thereabouts.

4 Q. It is only on those occasions that he was able -- you

5 were able to view his relationship with the other

6 guards?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it right that on those occasions the guards would do

9 their best to conceal what had been taking place before

10 he arrived?

11 A. I know that more or less from the fact that Pavo mostly

12 rode a motorcycle, and when they would hear the sound of

13 the motorcycle, they would say: "Here comes the

14 Commander", and everything had to be in its place.

15 Q. If anybody was being ill-treated at that time they would

16 make sure that the person was put back in the hangar

17 before Mr Mucic arrived?

18 A. Probably that's the situation. I don't know whether it

19 happened, from time to time that his arrival would

20 coincide with somebody being beaten.

21 Q. Can I remind him of what he said last week, and it is

22 this:

23 "He arrived on motorcycles. 'Here comes the

24 Commander'. Everybody has to be in their places. Even

25 if there was a beating going on, that would stop and the

Page 1477

1 prisoner would be put back in the hangar".

2 A. Yes. I assume that it was the situation, but I can't

3 remember now a precise incident which would happen at

4 the same time, but I know that the guards, they had to

5 be in their places and all the prisoners had to be in

6 their places. That was very strict. This is how

7 I concluded that he was the camp commander.

8 Q. I want to ask now about his transfer to Musala on

9 4th October. Can he tell us, please, how many people

10 were in the group that was transferred with him?

11 A. I think some 30 people.

12 Q. Were you taken in a truck from Celebici to Musala?

13 A. Yes. That was not a big truck. It was a small van.

14 Q. Can he recall who it was driven by, if he knows the name

15 of the person who drove the truck?

16 A. I think it was Delic.

17 Q. Can you remember if Mr Mucic accompanied this transfer?

18 A. As far as I know, no. Mucic was only there when they

19 were determining who was to go.

20 Q. Without trying to put dates on individual groups being

21 transferred, can he say approximately how many groups

22 had been transferred prior to his transfer?

23 A. I can't tell exactly, but several groups.

24 Q. When he got to Musala, were the people at Musala all

25 from Celebici, or were they from other camps?

Page 1478

1 A. Most of the people came from Celebici, but there were

2 quite a few of those that were not taken to Celebici,

3 but that were taken to Musala straight after their

4 arrest.

5 Q. As far as the groups that were transferred are

6 concerned, were they all of the same size or of varying

7 sizes?

8 A. I do not know for sure, but they were mostly a group of

9 30 people.

10 Q. After his transfer were other groups transferred from

11 Celebici to Musala?

12 A. Yes. Later on I think another group was transferred,

13 another group of 30 people, and then I think that was --

14 must have been somewhere in December when the last group

15 was transferred to Musala.

16 Q. Can he recall as to any of the other groups, both before

17 and after his transfer, did Mr Mucic take any of them as

18 far as he knows?

19 A. I cannot tell. I don't know.

20 Q. Finally, Mr Gligorevic, I would like you to look at a

21 short piece of videotape, and I would like you to help

22 me, if you can, as to the names of any people that you

23 can see on the videotape, please.

24 A. This is me.

25 Q. I am pleased to say I can recognise you, Mr Gligorevic,

Page 1479

1 and I also see myself. I am hoping that the technical

2 staff will now play the video, please.

3 (Videotape played)

4 A. This is Mirko Kuljanin.

5 Q. That is the gentleman in the blue cap?

6 A. Yes, in the middle. That is Mirko. Next to him is

7 Djordjic, Milan Djordjic.

8 Q. Would you like me to have that played again to you,

9 Mr Gligorevic, so you can have a better look again?

10 A. This is Meter Gligorevic; then Milan Djordjic, Rada

11 Miljanic; Vladko Gligorevic; Nedjo Djordjic; and here

12 Mirko Kuljanin.

13 Q. That is the gentleman in the yellow jersey?

14 A. This one in the middle.

15 Q. That is right. You can see him in the middle there

16 now.

17 A. Yes. That is Milan Djordjic. They are all from Bradina

18 and I know them very well.

19 Q. And?

20 A. Mirko Kuljanin; Boro Kuljanin; and Mikilo Mrkajic.

21 Q. I think that is probably all you can see clearly; is

22 that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you very much for that. Can you see the date on

25 that, Mr Gligorevic, 20th August 1992?

Page 1480

1 A. Yes. One can see the date.

2 Q. Can you recall the transfer of these people from

3 Celebici to Musala?

4 A. That was not taken in Celebici, because they left after

5 some ten days spent in Celebici. They were transferred

6 to Musala somewhere in June already.

7 Q. What I suggest to you is that you may be incorrect about

8 that date, and that, in fact, the date is in August

9 1992, Mr Gligorevic?

10 A. No. No. I know that for sure, because all elderly

11 people, except for a small group, were transferred to

12 Musala at that time. Apart from that, Mirko is a cousin

13 of mine, and I know also, and I have talked to him later

14 on, so I know that he was transferred somewhere in the

15 first part of June.

16 Q. All right. Thank you very much, Mr Gligorevic.

17 JUDGE JAN: Is this document already exhibited or you would

18 like it exhibited it now?

19 MR GREAVES: It is D 1/2, your Honour. I hope that answers

20 your question. I am sorry.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The next line of cross-examination,

22 who is that? It is Mr Moran.

23 MR MORAN: Yes, your Honour.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You are cross-examining.

25 Cross-examination by Mr Moran

Page 1481

1 MR MORAN: May it please the court, good morning, sir.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. My name is Tom Moran and I represent one of the

4 defendants here, Hazim Delic. I just wanted to ask you

5 a few relatively quick questions.

6 You were asked this morning about being charged

7 with an offence -- do you recall that -- being charged

8 with a crime?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You don't recall being asked that by the prosecutor?

11 A. I remember the question, but I was not charged with

12 anything.

13 Q. I understand that, sir, but do you remember testifying

14 on Thursday that at some point you went early in your

15 stay at Celebici you were brought before someone in

16 uniform, who was an investigating magistrate?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And Mr Delic was not there during that investigation,

19 was he, in the room while you were giving your

20 statement?

21 A. No, he was not.

22 Q. He did not force you to make any kind of statement, did

23 he?

24 A. No, he didn't.

25 Q. A couple of other quick questions, sir, and I believe

Page 1482

1 I will be through. Do you recall whether shortly after

2 you arrived at Celebici there was an incident where

3 there was a shortage of blankets and some blankets were

4 cut up to give as many people as possible some blanket?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you tell the court a little bit about that?

7 A. Yes. That happened. There were some people who had

8 family nearby and they knew the guards, so they allowed

9 them to admit some people to bring these blankets, and

10 indeed Mr Delic said to distribute those blankets to cut

11 them and to distribute them to those people who had not

12 had any.

13 Q. One last thing, sir, and then I believe we will be

14 through. This is on food. Do you know what the guards'

15 rations were and how they compared to your rations?

16 A. I don't know. We were not able to be where they had had

17 lunch.

18 Q. Do you know whether the food was prepared in the camp or

19 whether it was prepared some place else and brought to

20 the camp?

21 A. I don't know, but I think it was brought from somewhere.

22 Q. No further questions, your Honour. I pass the witness.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think the Trial Chamber will rise

24 now and reassemble at 11.40. We will rise now and

25 assemble at 11.40. Then you can continue with

Page 1483

1 cross-examination.

2 (11.10 am)

3 (Short break)

4 Raising of Security Matter by Defence Counsel

5 MR GREAVES: Your Honour, I have asked for the witness not

6 to come in for a moment, because there is a matter

7 I would like to raise with the court, if I may, please.

8 Your Honour will recall that we rose at 11.10 and have

9 now reassembled. As soon as defence counsel went out to

10 their room it was found to be locked and a gentleman who

11 has not so far identified himself to us informed us we

12 were not able to go into our room because what was

13 called a security sweep was taking place. I am now

14 informed that for a period of two hours the Dutch police

15 will be searching our room. Having had no notification

16 of that your Honour will understand that all

17 confidential documents, personal property, telephones

18 and so on, are open to search by people we do not know

19 and of whom we had no notification were going to be

20 searching our personal and professional documents.

21 I have to tell your Honour that those of us who

22 sit on this bench are extremely unhappy about this

23 eventuality, not least because we have not had a proper

24 break and have been unable to get coffee or get to our

25 property. I want an explanation to be made to all of us

Page 1484

1 as to what has happened, who it is who has been

2 searching our property, what has been done and a full

3 report as to what steps have been taken in our room

4 without our permission. I think Mr Moran also has

5 something to say on the subject.

6 MS McMURREY: I think all of us do.

7 MR MORAN: May it please the court, along this line, when

8 I left the defence room to come to court at

9 approximately 10 o'clock this morning the room was in

10 the custody of people chosen by the defence and I left

11 several confidential documents lying on my desk. As

12 I recall, the headquarters -- the agreement between the

13 United Nations and the Dutch government is that my

14 papers are inviolate. Now I find that the Dutch police

15 have access to my papers. I do not -- your Honour, I do

16 not know what the policy would be anywhere else but in

17 the United States this would be a most grievous matter.

18 Frankly, I do not recall what was in my briefcase. I am

19 most unhappy, your Honour.

20 MS McMURREY: Your Honours, I would also like to add at

21 this point that not only did we not get a break, that

22 they took our secretary and interpreter and stored them

23 on the first floor so we were unable to communicate with

24 our clients properly during the break, besides the

25 violation of our personal items in our room, besides no

Page 1485

1 notification of this. If we had been notified it would

2 be one thing and we could all have arranged a convenient

3 time, but in the middle of cross-examination of a

4 witness when we definitely have the need to communicate

5 with our clients -- I do want to say the security

6 finally brought the interpreter up and I did get to

7 speak to my client for a few minutes, but the hassle of

8 not knowing who is in our defence room right now, and

9 this is going on while we speak, we would just like some

10 answers and an explanation and possibly appropriate time

11 to be at least able to communicate with our clients

12 now. Thank you.

13 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I join

14 also my colleagues with all the matters they have

15 raised. I am really astonished, because according to

16 our rules in our country and our jurisdiction such

17 security check-ups could be done only if the lawyers are

18 charged with something and have been indicted. So we

19 did not have access to our client.

20 I would like to say also that our interpreter also

21 translated some documents, which I intend to use today

22 during cross-examination of the present witness. As we

23 did not have -- as these people and these documents have

24 been removed, I was unable to make the adequate

25 translations.

Page 1486

1 MS McMURREY: I just have one more point to bring up to the

2 court, that all of us, the judges, the prosecutors and

3 the defence attorneys are officers of the court. We are

4 sworn by our own jurisdictions to abide by the law and

5 we demand the respect that every other officer of the

6 court demands also. I just wanted to bring that to the

7 court's attention. We are, we feel, violated at this

8 point. Thank you.

9 MR GREAVES: Can I just add this. I have not really

10 thought the thing through properly because I have been

11 taken very much by surprise by this unexpected event.

12 It may well be that those of us who are in the defence

13 room want to have their own check made because we do not

14 know who these people are and nobody has bothered to

15 tell us. I would like not to have a suspicious mind but

16 those who are looking for little things in our room may

17 also be leaving little things behind. I would want to

18 be sure nothing of that kind has taken place. I am sure

19 it has not, but I am just made nervous by events like

20 this that come out of the blue.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually I am lost for words because I

22 do not really understand what is going on.

23 MR GREAVES: Nor do we, but I think Judge Jan has a clear

24 idea. I see him nodding sagely during the course of

25 what each of us has said. I think he has a clear idea

Page 1487

1 what has happened and our concerns. We wish them to be

2 addressed I think probably before we go any further at

3 all.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think the legal officer will go into

5 it and find out exactly what is happening and make a

6 report to the Trial Chamber, so we will know what has

7 been going on.

8 JUDGE JAN: What would you like us to do now?

9 MR GREAVES: I leave it to my --

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we will investigate it through

11 the Registrar and the security and know exactly what has

12 happened and what to say about it, because it will be

13 difficult for us to say anything.

14 MR GREAVES: I am not inviting the court to say anything at

15 this stage because it will be proper, it seems to me,

16 for your Honour and your Honour's colleagues to seek a

17 report from the court and then I think to discuss it in

18 open court with those of us who are affected by it, what

19 information you have about that, and we, of course, will

20 make our own investigations as the day goes on.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: As I have just told you, the legal

22 officer will go into it, check all available sources to

23 know exactly what has happened so we will know what to

24 do.

25 MR GREAVES: Thank you very much, your Honour.

Page 1488

1 JUDGE JAN: The relation between a lawyer and his client is

2 of utmost confidentiality and it has to be expected.

3 I am surprised this thing has happened. We will find

4 out. What else would you like us to do at this moment,

5 because you say that you have not been able to contact

6 your clients without the interpreter? So would you like

7 us to break for a little while?

8 MR GREAVES: I had other things I was going to do during

9 the course of the break.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually I have no intention of having

11 a break. I have no intention, because I agree it might

12 have disorganised a bit but we will be able to break at

13 lunch. Before then we will have more work to do.

14 MS McMURREY: I would just like as our final request that we

15 are asking for a postponement of the continuation of

16 this, because we have documents in the room that we

17 needed to refer to. We also needed to discuss things

18 with our clients. We were unable to get our

19 secretaries, our interpreters during this break.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Those documents have been taken away.

21 MS McMURREY: We cannot get into the defence room, your

22 Honour. We are not allowed.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You mean the room is sealed against

24 you?

25 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour.

Page 1489

1 MR MORAN: Yes, your Honour.

2 MR GREAVES: It is locked and there are some burly

3 gentlemen standing outside who look very unhappy when we

4 go anywhere near the door. It is an attitude that I am

5 not used to.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually I did not understand it that

7 waive. I did not know you were cleared of the room and

8 the room taken over by the security.

9 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour.

10 MR GREAVES: Not just us but our employees, the ones who

11 were working for us and in whom we have trust were

12 evicted, despite their protest at being evicted and were

13 shoved off to another room somewhere else in the

14 building so we could not find them when we came out from

15 the break. The break is important because there are

16 things which happen during the course of the morning

17 that we need to follow up immediately. We were all

18 prevented from doing that. That is why we are irritated

19 and also because of the security aspect.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I see your point. I see your point

21 very clearly. Now let me have the opinion of the

22 prosecution.

23 MR OSTBERG: So far I find this unbelievable and if a break

24 is asked from the defence, I support it.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we should. Obviously I do not

Page 1490

1 see how in the circumstances one can continue before we

2 sort out what is going on and know exactly what to do.

3 So I think we might have a break. I suppose -- I think

4 I expect by 2.30 we should have solved this riddle.

5 MR GREAVES: Thank you very much, your Honour.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Whatever it is, we will know what to

7 do by then.

8 MR GREAVES: Your Honour's assistance is much appreciated.

9 MR MORAN: Thank you very much.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I did not know you have been evicted

11 from the rooms; your staff not having access; nobody. I

12 think that is unprecedented. I have never heard of it

13 before. Anyway, I think we will rise for now.

14 (11.55 a.m.)

15 (Luncheon adjournment)











Page 1491

1 (2.30pm)

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

3 We have been quite stretched in trying to sort these

4 things out and I think you have been quite familiar with

5 the thought which has been made in assuring you that

6 nothing really sinister was intended. It must have been

7 an error and we hope you will be able to take whatever

8 explanations might have been given in respect of what

9 has happened. We thought it was an ordinary routine

10 check but those who did it might have done it without

11 the proper notice and proper procedure for getting it

12 done in the way everybody should understand. The

13 Registrar has been quite anxious about what has happened

14 and is doing everything to make sure is never happens

15 again and whatever the position has been, we will do

16 everything to alleviate whatever pain you might have

17 had.

18 MR MORAN: Your Honour, if I might, may it please the

19 court.


21 MR MORAN: Your Honour, we have discussed this at some

22 length amongst ourselves and it is the general consensus

23 -- we have talked to the Registrar and we agree that

24 there was a mistake made. On the other hand, several of

25 us have been approached by the press about this. In the

Page 1492

1 interests of not only justice but the appearance of

2 justice it is the general consensus, I believe, amongst

3 the defence that we probably need a hearing in which the

4 Commander of the Dutch authorities who did this, along

5 with the people who were actually in our rooms, come and

6 explain to the Tribunal, to the Trial Chamber, under

7 oath, subject to examination, what they did and why they

8 did it.

9 Your Honour, I think it would be a presumption in

10 my country, and I am not casting any dispersions upon

11 the prosecution here, but the presumption in the United

12 States would be that the attorney-client privilege had

13 been violated and that the prosecution had access to

14 everything that was in that defence room. I do not know

15 whether it would be an irrebuttable presumption or not

16 but at least there would be the presumption. Your

17 Honour, both to ensure that justice is done and to

18 ensure there is perception of justice I would like to

19 ask for a hearing with the appropriate officials, the

20 people that were in that room and the people that were

21 outside that room keeping us from going in to explain

22 exactly what happened and why.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually the type of hearing you are

24 suggesting appears to look like a trial. It is a

25 hearing under oath of what has been done. I do not

Page 1493

1 think we are indicting them for any such things.

2 I suppose you could also consider whether an explanation

3 in good faith as to whatever action they took would not

4 be sufficient for the populous.

5 MR MORAN: Your Honour, from the Tribunal's standpoint the

6 Registrar has talked to us and we accept from the

7 Registrar that it was a mistake on the part of the

8 Registry, that something happened -- we do not know

9 why. We accept that in all in good faith but, your

10 Honour, the Dutch authorities, as has been pointed out

11 to us, are not agents of the Registry and are not agents

12 of the Tribunal. It is my feeling, and I think the

13 feeling of most of the other defence counsel, that these

14 people ought to be invited on down to explain to the

15 court what they did while they were in that room behind

16 closed doors and to explain to the court under oath.

17 Whether they be subject to cross-examination is

18 something the Trial Chamber would have to decide,

19 whether it would be conducted by the Trial Chamber

20 itself, whether it would be conducted as a hearing.

21 Your Honour, you mentioned they are not under

22 indictment. That is true.

23 However, in my country, and Mr Greaves suggests in

24 the United Kingdom, such a thing could be considered

25 contempt of court and the rules clearly provide for this

Page 1494

1 Tribunal to have contempt powers.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We are not denying for one moment that

3 it could constitute that, but I think one is

4 occasionally trying not to stretch a matter to such an

5 extent that it might be more than it really was.

6 MR GREAVES: Can I offer a contribution? I hope it is not

7 too grandiose to say to a certain extent the eyes of

8 others in the world outside are upon this Tribunal, and

9 it is important for the reputation of this Tribunal that

10 its reputation for fairness and justice be maintained at

11 whatever cost. A question has arisen over what has

12 happened in this building and, as your Honour has quite

13 properly pointed out, is a matter of great concern. It

14 having been raised in public in that way, it is right

15 that the public knows what has happened in an open and

16 public way, so that any concerns it may have about the

17 fairness of what is happening in this Tribunal can be

18 properly allayed. The only way in which to achieve

19 that, and it is not, in my submission, by having a trial

20 of the police commander; it is simply the police

21 commander coming along and explaining on oath to this

22 court what he did and what his men did, so that any

23 concerns about counsel's property being searched and

24 confidential documents being looked at can properly be

25 allayed in the most public and proper way possible. It

Page 1495

1 is not a trifle. It is simply a proper explanation

2 being given for what appears to have been potentially a

3 piece of misconduct. I hope that all of those on this

4 bench would agree with me, as your Honours would, that

5 the reputation of this Tribunal is a matter of the

6 utmost importance. I for one want it to be upheld.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, perhaps I shall ask for a

8 solution perhaps. Could we listen to the Registrar once

9 more if she has anything to tell us about this?

10 MR GREAVES: Certainly I have no objection to that, your

11 Honour. I do not know whether my learned friends for

12 the prosecution have any observations to make. It may

13 be they would want to have something to say.

14 MR OSTBERG: Of course, your Honour, it is a concern for

15 the prosecution that what has happened be clarified and

16 to be reassured that it can never take place again, but

17 we stay with the decision to defer to the court to find

18 a way to deal with this question. Thank you.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we hear the Registrar on this

20 issue? Can you be of any assistance.

21 MME DE SAMPAYO: The only assistance I can give is that the

22 officials were carrying out something which is upon my

23 request as executive head of the Tribunal and they did

24 nothing, let us say, voluntarily. I requested them to

25 come here and to carry out a routine check, which has

Page 1496

1 been dealt with before, and in those cases the people of

2 offices that were to be checked have been notified.

3 This is -- what occurred this morning was not something

4 that was scheduled by me. It was clearly a

5 misunderstanding which was made in the office of

6 security, which again is under my responsibility, and

7 I deeply apologise for this. Again they came here upon

8 my request, because there are no other authorities

9 available to carry out these routine checks.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think in the overall interests of

11 the Tribunal and of justice we think we would require

12 some explanation from them. Let them come in and give

13 us an explanation of what happened, so that whatever is

14 the rumour, the explanation will be able to dispel them.

15 MME DE SAMPAYO: I may just draw attention to the fact that

16 these are security matters and therefore I feel that it

17 is -- although it has been brought this morning out in

18 the court room, I have some feeling here that on

19 security matters we should not perhaps bring it further

20 than this court room, because the security in this

21 building concerns us and all the occupants of it. I do

22 not think that it is appropriate to deal with this

23 matter in public.

24 MS McMURREY: Just for some closure in this matter, your

25 Honours, if I might be heard, Madame de Sampayo has

Page 1497

1 offered an explanation. This is not for us, because

2 I believe that all we would like to know, she has said

3 there was a security search. We still are not clear

4 what they were searching for. We have no idea what it

5 is that this was -- what the search was concerning. If

6 it was something we should be alarmed about, we should

7 know about it, but right now as far as closure goes, she

8 says there was a search but no item has been described

9 that they were searching for. For closure we would like

10 to know what it was that our private, confidential,

11 privileged domain was invaded for. Thank you.

12 MME DE SAMPAYO: May I just react to that once more?

13 Certainly these are offices that are for the use of the

14 defence counsel, so they are put at the disposal of the

15 defence counsel, all right. What I mean to say is that

16 if I say this is a routine check, this is not a search

17 for documents or whatever and I hope that is clear

18 enough. If I would have to give further explanations,

19 I would rather not do it here in court myself.

20 MR GREAVES: I can well understand Madame de Sampayo's

21 concerns about making public techniques and the nature

22 of security in this building. Those are properly

23 matters which we must also guard against and balance the

24 interests of, as it were, the public being allayed,

25 having any fears allayed about the openness of justice

Page 1498

1 and the fairness of justice -- one has to balance those

2 considerations against revealing information which would

3 be detrimental to Madame de Sampayo and the job which

4 she carries out, if I may say so, excellently. There

5 has to be some information given in public, if only to

6 allay, as I say, any potential suspicion that the press

7 and public at large have about what happened. It can be

8 done without revealing either techniques of security

9 surveillance or the pattern of security surveillance

10 that is conducted under her authority. It is simply a

11 matter of establishing that documents were not looked at

12 and what items were, in fact, searched within our room.

13 I certainly agree with her that there are matters which

14 should not be given in open court, but we have to

15 balance that with the need to inform the public that

16 nothing untoward has, in fact, gone on.

17 There is one other consideration. One could well

18 understand a Defendant, seeing what has happened, might

19 have his own suspicions about who is responsible. They,

20 too, have a very considerable interest in having any

21 fears that they may have allayed by such a hearing.

22 I hope that is helpful.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think the Trial Chamber believes

24 that some explanation is required, and that is all we

25 need from them. We would not go to the extent of asking

Page 1499

1 for any detailed explanation of what happened, how

2 things happened.

3 MME DE SAMPAYO: If I can just elaborate a little bit more,

4 it is a security check which is not meant for looking

5 for documents. It is certainly not meant for breaking

6 in or whatever. It is the same kind of check that is

7 carried out -- it was just an hour ago carried out in my

8 office. It is a check to see how security arrangements

9 are being implemented, whether we implement it well

10 ourselves, and there is not a particular search for

11 objects, but it is something that has been carried out

12 upon my request in the past, because I feel that, as

13 United Nations' building here, we should protect

14 ourselves. Therefore, it has been a kind of -- well, it

15 has been a misunderstanding to include also the quarters

16 of the defence, because I am not particular -- nobody is

17 particularly interested in seeing what kind of documents

18 there are. By the fact that it has occurred on a trial

19 morning, it is by that fact only it should be clear that

20 it is certainly a misunderstanding. I am not aware of

21 the exact techniques. I am aware of a report that has

22 been given to me afterwards, after such a check, and it

23 has greatly helped us to improve security. I feel that

24 going into details and asking the very officers to

25 disclose what they actually -- what they are doing is

Page 1500

1 something that is going too far for an open hearing,

2 because that may well jeopardise our future endeavours

3 to achieve a secure building, because I do not think

4 that the very authorities carrying this out now will be

5 willing to do it again if they have to go through this.

6 Again I assume responsibility for the mistake that

7 has been made, and I have apologised before the hearing

8 towards the defence counsel. I can understand their

9 doubts. I feel it is going too far if we had in open

10 court these very same people having to come forward and

11 say what they actually did. They are not working for

12 the prosecutor, nor are they working for the judges.

13 They have been coming here upon my specific request, and

14 the fact that I have asked these services to come in --

15 the reason why I have asked those services to come in is

16 that we do not have any other means and we have for this

17 to rely on the host country helping us out with this.

18 Apart from the fact we could not even afford it, that

19 the United Nations do not have provisions for this, so

20 naturally you have to go back to the host country. If

21 it would relieve you, I would certainly give an order to

22 the officers that whatever they did, if they have made

23 notes or whatever, that they erase that or they hand it

24 in to me. I could then show that to you and see what

25 they actually did, if that can relieve your doubts and

Page 1501

1 suspicions. I am the person here accountable for what

2 happened and if that is -- I am looking at Mr Greaves --

3 the prosecutor is no part of this, it is something that

4 I feel again, as executive head of this Tribunal, I have

5 to carry this out for the sake of security, and I think

6 we should have a secure building. It is also in the

7 advantage of the defence, so when they come to my

8 office, so they can speak freely and confidentially and

9 without any second thoughts of what would happen with

10 what was spoken. I mean, it is for everyone's interest

11 that I do this, and again if the defence would feel that

12 they would have any particular need for their quarters

13 here in this building to be checked, I would very gladly

14 cooperate with that and call in again these authorities

15 to carry that out, if there were any suspicion.

16 Now, you can say who can you trust? Well, it is

17 very difficult whom you can trust, but I am convinced,

18 as we are working in this country, we should have to

19 trust the host country, because it is also in their

20 interest that this Tribunal is made into a success. So

21 if you cannot trust anybody, you have to elaborate your

22 own systems. As I said, we do not have our own

23 systems. So this is the only course of action that

24 I think was a responsible one, and again this is a

25 mistake. If I may say so, it was quite a stupid

Page 1502

1 mistake. If there had been bad intentions, it would

2 certainly not have been carried out in a morning that

3 the trial is on and you are all here. But again if you

4 want more information, I do not think this is

5 appropriate to discuss this in open court.

6 MR GREAVES: Well, having heard what Madame de Sampayo has

7 to say, I think I for one would have no objection to, as

8 it were, an account being given in closed session, but

9 at the end of that there must be certainly something

10 said to the public to make sure that the process is open

11 and above board. I think that might be the best

12 solution, but I speak only for myself on that aspect.

13 My learned friends may have another observation to

14 make.

15 MR MORAN: Your Honour, as a person who spent a good

16 portion of his life dealing with classified information,

17 I surely do not want to be spreading it all over the

18 front page of the New York Times. I have no intention

19 of doing that. I agree with Mr Greaves that in any kind

20 of form that this court is happy with I would be happy

21 with, but at some point I think some conclusions and

22 findings of fact probably ought to be released to the

23 public, again without revealing any sources or methods,

24 things like that. I agree with the Registrar that

25 nobody, surely not the prosecution here, planned to do

Page 1503

1 anything. It was in all likelihood a horrible mistake,

2 but at some point the people out there, the people in

3 the former Yugoslavia, who are looking to the Tribunal

4 really as a way of bringing some peace and some closure

5 to a horrible war, need to know what is going on here.

6 Thank you, your Honour.

7 MS McMURREY: If I might just add a bit, I believe the way

8 it happened this morning, even though I want to commend

9 the security here in this building -- they have been

10 wonderful to work with and they have bent over backwards

11 even to assist us today after this has happened -- when

12 it first happened and they detained the people that work

13 for us, it offended us in a way that what happened was

14 we felt like we were the accused and we were under

15 suspicion of some wrongdoing. If it is clear to

16 everybody that this was some kind of routine check for

17 something, then that removes any suspicion that we, as

18 officers of the court, had done something that would

19 warrant this kind of search. I think that is the main

20 thing that has bothered myself and my colleagues more

21 than anything about this, that we are not under

22 suspicion for anything and, you know, if that is clear

23 and that can be cleared up with everybody, then if it

24 were a routine operation, then we can accept that is

25 correct but the way it happened this morning, we felt

Page 1504

1 like we were the accused. Thank you.

2 MR GREAVES: I omitted to say that nothing that has

3 happened today has diminished my trust and respect for

4 Madam de Sampayo. I hope she understands that and

5 appreciates my concern why the public should have some

6 idea of what has happened, as my learned friend Mr Moran

7 said.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: From the nature of the questions that

9 might be asked, I think a closed hearing might be a

10 better thing to do in this case. We will do it under

11 closed hearing and then you can ask whatever questions

12 you would like for whatever information you want to get

13 out of those who dealt with the matter. It is a very

14 distressing situation, because I do not think anybody is

15 expecting this type of situation.

16 (In closed session)

17 (redacted)

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21 (In open session)

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We are happy to deal with a simple

23 matter -- I regard it as simple; I do not know whether

24 it is complicated. There is a witness in respect of

25 whom the prosecution is asking for protection. We have

Page 1512

1 not got any reaction from the defence so I do not know

2 exactly what your position is. If the prosecution would

3 like to take the motion now.

4 MR TURONE: In open session?

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That depends on what you want to say.

6 MR TURONE: Actually I can do it without making any names,

7 your Honour. I beg your pardon. I heard something.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I am asking for the reaction of the

9 defence, because if we have to close, then one might go

10 into arguments. If not, then it will not be necessary

11 to go further.

12 MR TURONE: We simply recall what we have written in our

13 written motion, your Honour, unless you want some more

14 explanation.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No. Let us hear the defence. Yes, Ms

16 Residovic?

17 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, the

18 defence counsel for Mr Zejnil Delalic does not find real

19 reasons to put this witness also under special

20 protection. The reasons given by the prosecutor in his

21 request concern the fact that the parents, that is the

22 family of that particular witness live in the Konjic

23 area, and that maybe an open testimony by that witness

24 could put in danger his family. Apart from that

25 statement, the prosecutor does not give a single reason

Page 1513

1 which would indicate that such fears are justified.

2 As far as the counsel for Mr Delalic knows, the

3 family of that particular witness, although some of that

4 family did spend some time in detention in Celebici, but

5 that family has lived since 1992 in that area, and

6 nevertheless the prosecutor never offered any kind of an

7 indication that that family has been in any kind of

8 danger from anybody.

9 We would also like to stress that the name of this

10 witness has been known for a long time, for one year

11 after the indictment, and had anyone had any intention

12 to do any harm to that witness' family, maybe we would

13 have had some fact about that. That is why I think that

14 the given claim cannot be sufficient to ask for

15 protective measures for this witness.

16 In case we continue with such proposals, this

17 trial is really going to be a closed trial. Thank you.

18 MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, as defence

19 counsel for Esad Landzo, I entirely support my

20 colleague, the counsel for Mr Delalic. I think that the

21 reasons given by the prosecution in their request do not

22 hold ground. The reasons for concern have to be real

23 and not abstract in nature, and the very fact that these

24 reasons are not grounded are clear for a very well-known

25 fact. That is for more than a year since this witness

Page 1514

1 has given his statement, the defence knows his

2 existence, and knows that this person is going to

3 testify in court, and that is given as a reason for the

4 prosecution's concern for something that is an exception

5 to the rule, and that could become a rule itself. This

6 could have the consequence that this trial becomes a

7 closed and secret trial.

8 So I do not think that the prosecution's request,

9 when it comes to the measures, protective measures for

10 the witness should be upheld.

11 MR KARABDIC (in interpretation): As defence counsel for

12 Mr Hazim Delic, I fully support the declarations made by

13 my colleagues. I would only like to add that in the

14 area where these persons live, the persons for the

15 security of which the prosecution expressed concern, I

16 have to say that in that area there has been peace for a

17 while, and no case of revenge has been noted in that

18 area. So the concern by the prosecution is really out

19 of place, and as there are no grounds for security

20 measures, I myself am also contrary to that request, and

21 I ask for the request of the prosecution to be rejected.

22 MR GREAVES: The only contribution I have to make is this,

23 and I think it is a point that Madam Residovic has made,

24 which is it is rather like closing the stable door after

25 the horse has bolted.

Page 1515

1 JUDGE JAN: Surely you have an obligation not to disclose

2 the name of the witnesses to anyone else.

3 MR GREAVES: Of course. As officers of the court we obey

4 that implicitly.

5 MR TURONE: Your Honours, we simply felt the duty to file

6 this request for a new protection from public and media

7 of this witness. We do not agree with what has been

8 said, that this might mean that this is going to become

9 a secret trial. Actually, the great majority of the

10 prosecution witnesses have testified and are going to

11 testify in public session. The protection we are asking

12 is the lowest level of protection. It is just shielding

13 the witness from public and media. We felt a duty of

14 doing that, because the parents of this witness are

15 reported to live in a small village in the area. In the

16 area, as far as we can understand from our interviews,

17 there are still some tensions. Persons are afraid.

18 Furthermore, this protection does make some sense, since

19 this witness' status as a witness was not publicly known

20 until now. So this is why we felt the duty to file this

21 request and we insist on that, with the permission of

22 the court. Thank you.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We will be able to give a short ruling

24 when we come back at 4.15. We should be back at 4.15.

25 (3.40pm)

Page 1516

1 (Short break)

2 (4.15pm)

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We will give a short ruling on the

4 application for Witness N. We have considered it. As

5 half-hearted as it is, we grant the application, but not

6 in closed session. It has to be done in open session.

7 The hearing will be in open session, but there should be

8 image device, altering devices to conceal the identity

9 from the public and the media. The use of a pseudonym

10 should be maintained. About this question of expunging

11 his name in all records, that depends upon the nature of

12 the evidence which is involved.

13 Also, it depends on the nature of the evidence too

14 whether it should be in a private or closed session. It

15 is not merely because it appears it will be in a closed

16 session; merely being a witness does not grant him

17 sufficient to go into closed session. He will be in

18 open session. He will be accessible to counsel and to

19 the accused.

20 Now can we have the next witness -- the witness is

21 still on.

22 MR OSTBERG: There still remains some cross-examination.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. You should invite him in.

24 (Witness returns to court)

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The witness is still on his oath, so

Page 1517

1 kindly remind him.

2 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you that you are still testifying

3 under oath.

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Now who is cross-examining?

6 Cross-examination by Ms McMurrey.

7 MS McMURREY: May it please the court, may I proceed?

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

9 MS McMURREY: Thank you. Good afternoon, Mr Gligorevic. I

10 am Cynthia McMurrey and I am a defence attorney here

11 also. I represent Esad Landzo.

12 You visited with the prosecution on February 24th,

13 1996 and gave a statement, did you not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I think it was February 24th, 1996. An investigator

16 from the prosecutor's office?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. The prosecutor or someone from the

19 prosecutor's office had called you and told you that the

20 defence would like to talk to you, did they not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You refused to talk to anybody from the defence, did you

23 not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So you refused to give us the same courtesies that you

Page 1518

1 have gave the prosecutor; is that true?

2 A. I don't know why I would want to talk to the defence.

3 Q. Well, you knew that we wanted to talk to you and you

4 would not let us talk to you; right?

5 A. Yes, but I do not see that there was anything for us to

6 discuss.

7 Q. Let me ask you: you are by profession a teacher; is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You are from the Bradina area, are you not, originally?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. But some time before you came back to Bradina you were a

13 teacher in the Hadzici area; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is that an area close to Sarajevo?

16 A. It is one of the municipalitites of Sarajevo.

17 Q. While you were in Sarajevo, since you are an educated,

18 intellectual man, you did watch television and you tried

19 to keep yourself abreast of what was going on around

20 you, did you not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Just one more question. I want to back up. You were

23 born in Bosnia-Herzegovina, were you not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In fact, you either voted in the March 1st, 1992

Page 1519

1 referendum or you had the opportunity to vote in that

2 referendum, did you not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Since you were in the Sarajevo area on October 14th,

5 1991, you were aware of the fact that the Bosnian Serbs

6 walked out of the Assembly, were you not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You were also aware that they wanted the people of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina to be a part of Greater Serbia

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that your leader, Radovan

11 Karadzic, also said that if they did not the Muslim

12 people would disappear, would they not? Is that not

13 what he said?

14 A. I do not know about that. I , in fact, was a citizen of

15 Yugoslavia. This is the way I was brought up at home

16 and in school, and this is how I educated, brought up 23

17 generations of pupils. Even today I feel that I am a

18 Yugoslav and I am sad that that State had broken up.

19 Q. I can imagine how sad it would be after all those

20 generations, but the truth is that after

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina declared its independence you were a

22 Bosnian and Herzegovinian citizen, were you not?

23 A. I was and I remain a citizen of Yugoslavia.

24 Q. Now, Mr Gligorevic, there is no Yugoslavia any more, as

25 there once was, is there?

Page 1520

1 A. Yes. It is no longer there.

2 Q. Okay. So what you are telling this Tribunal is that you

3 are claiming a citizenship of a country that does not

4 exist any more; is that correct?

5 A. Well, this second rump Yugoslavia still exists.

6 Q. Do you live in Bradina now currently?

7 A. No. Bradina does not exist any more. There is not a

8 single building left standing. All have been burnt.

9 Q. Are you teaching in the Konjic area currently?

10 MR OSTBERG: Objection as to relevancy. It is absolutely

11 irrelevant.

12 MS McMURREY: I do not think it is irrelevant. He has to

13 show he has the knowledge of the area in which he

14 lives. I am going to ask him a bunch of questions about

15 it.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If you want to get any information out

17 of him, ask him.

18 MS McMURREY: Okay. Thank you. I want to go back to the

19 time that you were in Hadzici before the war started.

20 You were in Hadzici at the 1st April when the war

21 actually started, were you not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In fact, you did not travel to Bradina until some time

24 in May, did you?

25 A. Yes. Approximately I think it was on 8th May.

Page 1521

1 Q. You stated before that on the road outside of Bradina

2 there were certain Muslim checkpoints; did you not state

3 that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You know that the checkpoints on the road were not

6 strictly Muslim checkpoints, were they? In fact, the

7 checkpoints on the road were Serbian checkpoints or they

8 were BH army checkpoints, were they not?

9 A. No. These were Muslim checkpoints, one in Pasarici, one

10 in Ucovici, just before Bradina. There were people in

11 uniforms and also people in civilian clothes.

12 Q. The people in uniforms were members of the BH army, were

13 they not?

14 A. I don't know. Everybody wore a uniform.

15 Q. In fact, the road there that you are talking about is

16 the main road from Konjic to Sarajevo, is it not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It is a very important road for the supplies to

19 Sarajevo, is it not?

20 A. Probably.

21 Q. I know you just said you were under oath, but there were

22 also on this road Serbian checkpoints, were there not,

23 controlled by Serbs?

24 A. Well, at that time every village in Bosnia-Herzegovina

25 had watches, sentries. I was not there at the time but

Page 1522

1 there was some kind of agreement between the Konjic

2 authorities and those people in Bradina, and they

3 negotiated until the political solution is found -- they

4 agreed that everybody should stay in their places and

5 nobody should bother anyone.

6 Q. Now my question to you was: there were Serbian

7 checkpoints on this main road, M17, were there not?

8 A. As I said, there were sentries and at the entrance and

9 exit to Bradina I don't know who was there. Somebody

10 from the other side, the Muslim authorities, had blown

11 up the access routes. A truck full of explosive was

12 brought to the tunnel on the route from Konjic to

13 Bradina and that was blown up and on the other side on

14 the route from Sarajevo huge amounts of sand were put on

15 the road and both roads were blocked. There were also

16 logs and also an excavator was placed there so that the

17 road was blocked on both sides. It must have been

18 several days after I came to Bradina, and I wasn't able

19 to go anywhere from there. I had initially thought to

20 go back to Hadzici.

21 Q. I would like you to look at these judges and answer my

22 question again. There were Serbian checkpoints -- there

23 were blocks on the road, M17, from Sarajevo to Konjic

24 that were controlled by the Serbs, were there not?

25 A. I don't know, except for the sentries that I mentioned.

Page 1523

1 I know that at the time when I was there nobody passed

2 on that route. That road was blocked on both sides.

3 Q. But you were able to get into Bradina, were you not,

4 from Sarajevo?

5 A. Yes. As I just said, it was immediately after I came to

6 Bradina on 8th May. I had some land there. It hadn't

7 been worked. I had a small tractor and my relatives

8 were there, and after that the roads were blocked and I

9 was unable to go back.

10 Q. So you are telling this court that you did not leave

11 Sarajevo because of the shelling? You just happened to

12 come out into the country to work your land?

13 A. No. Hadzici was quiet at the time. There was no

14 shooting, no shelling, and the only thing was that the

15 schools were open until mid-April. Then they would open

16 for a day or two and then they would close, and then

17 finally the classes stopped.

18 Q. Is it not true that the only students left in the

19 classroom were the Muslim students in Sarajevo, because

20 all the Serbian students had left, had they not?

21 A. No. There were quite a few Serbian children there.

22 Q. Now, you stated also that there was no organised defence

23 of Bradina, did you not?

24 A. No. As I said, there were just village sentries. I can

25 illustrate what the defence was like by giving you a

Page 1524

1 fact, that Bradina was in the middle of the Muslim

2 territory, and according to the 1991 census Bradina had

3 602 inhabitants from the newborn babies until people the

4 age of 90, and I don't see how it could have resisted

5 the onslaught around it of the mass of people, 50-60,000

6 Muslims and Croats.

7 Q. You did state there was no organised defence, did you

8 not? That was my question.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, you also stated that none of the Serbs in the

11 village were armed, did you not?

12 A. I don't know. I stated that I did not have any weapons

13 myself, but there were people who had some hunting

14 rifles. Some even had military rifles or pistols, for

15 which they had permits from the former State.

16 Q. And the people that had those M-48s, they had permits

17 too, did they not?

18 A. I just said -- maybe the interpretation is not good --

19 there were people who had army rifles. I don't know

20 where they got them from. I spent only a short while in

21 Bradina, from 8th May until 27th.

22 Q. I believe that's the key there. You did not arrive in

23 Bradina until May 8th, and the arming of Bradina had

24 occurred much before that, had it not?

25 A. I am not familiar with that.

Page 1525

1 Q. Okay, but you did tell this Tribunal that the people

2 guarded their houses, so they had to have some kind of

3 arms, did they not?

4 A. Again you repeat the same thing. I said that some

5 people had hunting rifles and some had army rifles.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is not the way to put your

7 questions.

8 A. I don't know where they got them.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is not the right way.

10 MS McMURREY: I will rephrase the question, your Honour.

11 You also said that the Muslim forces attacked

12 Bradina, did you not?

13 A. I said that these were the forces both composed of

14 Muslims and Croats. I assumed that on the basis of the

15 insignia they had on their -- some had camouflage

16 uniforms; some had black uniforms. Some had the checker

17 board on theirs and some had the Crescent and the star

18 on them.

19 Q. And the chequerboard is clearly HVO; is that right?

20 That is the Croatian military symbol?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In fact another group of military soldiers, the MUP,

23 also participated in this attack on Bradina, did they

24 not?

25 A. I don't know about that. I don't know who belonged to

Page 1526

1 what type. I don't know anything about that.

2 Q. You also stated, I believe, that when you were taken to

3 Celebici you were beaten with all kinds of tools. It

4 included -- you used the term the apple of a rifle, did

5 you not?

6 A. Yes. I do not know if you ever saw the rifle. It has

7 the part where you close the chamber when you enter the

8 bullet into the chamber and you can take it off, and

9 then at the side where you can hold it in your hand it

10 is rounded. This part is called the apple, and that is

11 the part that I was referring to.

12 Q. But you were never in the military service, were you?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And so your experience with a gun, did it just occur in

15 Bradina in May?

16 A. No. In my college, teaching college, we had a course in

17 all people's defence. It was very -- a long time ago in

18 1963, 64, when I was in the third or fourth year of my

19 course.

20 Q. Going back to that apple, that apple is the little round

21 lever when you put in the rifle shell into the chamber

22 and you close it back, that is the little round thing

23 about this big; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, since you were from Bradina and you knew that some

Page 1527

1 of the Serbs in your town were armed, you knew a Zarko

2 Mrkajic, did you not?

3 A. Zarko Mrkajic? Yes, I did know him. He had a cafe in

4 Bradina, if that's the man you referred to.

5 Q. You were aware that he was responsible for distributing

6 the arms to the Serbs in Bradina from the SDS, did you

7 not?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You also did not know that Rajko Djordjic was also

10 responsible for distributing arms in Bradina?

11 A. No, because I lived in Upper Bradina, as we called it,

12 and it's about 2 or 3 kms away from the centre. There

13 was no gasoline at the time, so I didn't even go down to

14 the centre at all.

15 Q. So you are telling this court you were not aware of the

16 promise by the Serbian forces to come and liberate

17 Bradina, are you? Are you telling them you did not know

18 about that?

19 A. No. How would I know that. There was no electricity in

20 Bradina.

21 Q. Now, you also stated that you were -- this was from

22 Thursday's testimony -- that you were severely beaten in

23 Bradina, were you not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And, in fact, they made you -- they beat you first, let

Page 1528

1 you get on the truck and then they took you back off the

2 truck again for another beating, did they not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Those were the HVO/TO forces, MUP forces that arrested

5 you there?

6 A. Yes. These were the forces wearing camouflage military

7 uniforms. I don't know to which formations or units

8 they belonged.

9 Q. In fact, it was then at Bradina upon your arrest that

10 all of your valuables were taken off you; is that not

11 correct?

12 A. Yes, but I did not have much with me. I just had a

13 watch. I don't know if you would consider that a

14 valuable. Cigarettes and a lighter and that is all.

15 Q. You said then you were taken to Celebici. I believe --

16 is this still May 27th, 1992?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. This was the third day of the attack on Bradina, because

19 it began on May 25th, did it not?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You claimed that when you were taken into Celebici, you

22 were taken off the truck and you were lined up against a

23 wall there near the gate; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Then you also claimed that you were beaten by a group of

Page 1529

1 Muslims. Is that not what you said?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. But your face is totally against the wall and you were

4 not allowed to look back at these people, so you did not

5 know who they were, did you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In fact, they told you to say: "Praise the Lord!", did

8 they not?

9 A. Yes. We had to repeat that the Muslim faith was the

10 best. We had to use the greetings "Selam Aleikam

11 Merhaba!" We had to repeat -- well, I don't understand

12 those words. I don't know if they understood them

13 themselves -- entire soura from the Koran and it was a

14 horrible humiliation. The entire Celebici echoed with

15 our voices. We had to shout at the top of our voices.

16 Q. Mr Gligorevic, I want to just kind of come to an

17 agreement with you. I understand you have a lot of

18 information to give to the tribunal and I believe on

19 Thursday and earlier today you were able to tell them

20 whatever you wanted, but now I want to ask you to please

21 listen to my question. If you listen to my question and

22 just answer my question, then we will both be out of

23 here real soon; okay? Is that a deal?

24 A. Yes. If I know the answer, I will give up the answer.

25 Q. My question was: they also had you say: "Praise the

Page 1530

1 Lord!", did they not?

2 A. Yes. It happened several times right at the beginning,

3 and then it stopped.

4 Q. And "praise the Lord!" is more of a Croatian, Catholic

5 saying, is it not? It is not Muslim?

6 A. Yes, that is correct.

7 Q. You also stated that you were beaten -- some of the

8 people in the line there were beaten with a stone from

9 the Neretva river. Is that not what you said?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know that the Neretva river does not go by

12 Celebici, does it?

13 A. It's not very far from the camp, several hundred metres

14 from there.

15 Q. But that is Lake Jablanica, is it not?

16 A. Yes, when there is lots of water in there, but when

17 there is not -- I mean that stone there is not only in

18 the middle of the river. You can find it also elsewhere

19 around on the river side.

20 Q. You also told the court you know a man named Gojko

21 Miljanic, do you not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Or should I say did you not? I am sorry. He was from

24 Bradina, was he not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1531

1 Q. You knew him as a man about 60 years old; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes. Thereabouts. I think he must have been born in

4 1934. I think so, yes, 1934.

5 Q. Thank you. On May 27th this Gojko Miljanic was beaten

6 in Bradina. He was beaten on the way to Celebici and he

7 was beaten there at the gate of Celebici. Is that not

8 true?

9 A. I don't know how much beatings he got in Bradina,

10 because he was further away from me in the column, and

11 he entered -- he boarded the car before me, but I know

12 everybody was beaten. The elderly people got beaten

13 less, the younger people much more, but at Celebici yes,

14 I saw the man in the line-up where we stood, and he gave

15 no sign of life all the time. In that state he was when

16 he carried him to the Hangar Number 6, and only the day

17 after he died late in the afternoon without ever

18 regaining consciousness.

19 Q. So he died on May 27th/28th as a result of his beating

20 on May 27th; is that correct?

21 A. Yes. He died on 28th May as consequences of his

22 beatings.

23 Q. There was no other Miljanic at Celebici that was killed

24 during your stay there, was there?

25 A. No.

Page 1532

1 Q. Thank you. You also told us that at night guards would

2 come to the door and call people out, and you said that

3 they were afraid to come in at night, were they not?

4 A. No. These night visitors, but our guards, the guards

5 who usually guarded us, would not go inside hangar 6.

6 Those who came at night were not guards. I don't know

7 where they came from. I remember what I told last

8 Thursday, there was a group. They introduced themselves

9 saying: "We are from Sarajevo." Were they really from

10 Sarajevo? I don't know. I suppose they were. They

11 took away Stravko Gligorevic and a person named Milosc,

12 whose family name I don't know. They beat him up in

13 front of us and then they took him away. Later on we

14 heard that Milosc, as he was an elderly person of poor

15 health, he was killed at Igman and Stravko was killed in

16 the prison at Stravanica.

17 Q. The fact these guards or strangers would come at night

18 to the door and call someone else, the truth is what

19 happened outside the hangar you yourself do not know.

20 You do not know who did the beating and you do not know

21 if there was beating. You only know someone came out in

22 one condition and they came back in another. Is that

23 not true?

24 A. I know who was beaten. I do not know who beat them

25 outside.

Page 1533

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. People were taken out at night and ...

3 Q. You were also taken in for interrogation at the first of

4 your stay in Celebici, where you were asked certain

5 questions. Is that not true?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The kind of -- I am sorry.

8 A. Yes. I was more or less in the last, group one, but the

9 last who went for interrogation and last time

10 I described what it looked like behind the command

11 building, where we were there on the pavement, and we

12 were interrogated there.

13 Q. I just wanted to ask you the kind of questions they

14 asked were questions like: "Did you have arms?" And "are

15 you a members of the SDS?" Is that not true?

16 A. Yes. They asked those kinds of questions and gave the

17 answer straightaway. They ask you the question

18 straightaway and then they answer it straightaway. They

19 write it down in that way, and they had to sign it

20 afterwards, because whatever I said it wasn't correct.

21 They said: "No, no, I know that is how it is." I had to

22 sign up and even sign in Cyrillic script, which was

23 severely forbidden in Konjic at that time.

24 Q. Well, I am not familiar, so I am not going to ask you

25 about those, but when you say you have had an

Page 1534

1 opportunity to review that statement since then, have

2 you not?

3 A. No. I don't know where I could do it.

4 Q. You mean, you have never seen the statement that you

5 signed at Celebici in June of 1992?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you: you also stated on Thursday

8 that you eyewitnessed a lot of incidents involving

9 mistreatment at Celebici, did you not? In fact, one of

10 the people was Miroslav Vujcic. He was killed trying to

11 escape the first day at Celebici, was he not?

12 A. Yes, he was killed from firearms. He was shot when we

13 were lined up against the wall. He was among those who

14 were, apart from being beaten regularly he was taken out

15 of that line-up and ordered, as with some others, to lie

16 down, and they were hit and beaten with rifle butts and

17 shovel handles. I don't know. Probably he could not

18 bear those beatings. He jumped up and the only thing we

19 heard were the cries of the guards: "He's running away!

20 he's running away!." Then we heard some shots. We were

21 saying to ourselves: "Well, this person ran away."

22 I suppose they assumed some other people would try the

23 same thing and when we were going towards Hangar Number

24 6 after all those beatings, I saw him lying down on the

25 grass.

Page 1535

1 Q. That was May 27th, 1992, was it not?

2 A. Yes, May 27th.

3 Q. You were taken to Hangar Number 6 shortly thereafter,

4 were you not?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I would just like to go into a little description of

7 Hangar Number 6 now, if you do not mind. How large

8 would you say it was?

9 A. I can't tell you exactly. I think some 15-20 metres.

10 Q. The only windows in Hangar Number 6 were about 3 metres

11 high, were they not? You could not see out of them,

12 could you?

13 A. No. These were small, very narrow windows towards the

14 upper part of the wall, just behind -- beneath the roof.

15 Q. You sat on the back left-hand wall. The front wall was

16 a series of large doors that were never opened, were

17 there?

18 A. There were two large doors there, but they started to

19 open them only in the autumn after the Red Cross

20 intervened because of great heat. The middle door was

21 also big and there was a smaller part that opened -- the

22 only part that opened was a smaller part in that big

23 door.

24 Q. Those big doors that are along the front of Hangar

25 Number 6, they did not have any holes or anything in

Page 1536

1 them with which you could look out, did they?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Around the bottom you sat on the edge of the hangar.

4 There was no space between the wall and the floor where

5 you could reach your hand out, was there? It was sealed

6 from the wall down to the concrete, was it not?

7 A. There was no major type of opening. Only water could go

8 through.

9 Q. Okay. As far as toilet facilities, there were toilets

10 that had been dug towards the back of the hangar on the

11 right-hand side that you all would use during the day;

12 is that correct?

13 A. Sometimes we would use them; sometimes not. It depended

14 on the guards.

15 Q. At night there was a large bucket put inside the hangar

16 for your actual use that was taken out during the day,

17 was it not?

18 A. Yes, yes. Not at the beginning, but later on there were

19 two such containers that would be taken out in the

20 morning.

21 Q. I see you are shaking your head before I am finished

22 with the questions. Do you understand some English?

23 A. A little.

24 Q. A lot more than my Serbo-Croatian, I am sure?

25 A. Probably.

Page 1537

1 Q. You also said that there was a very little water at

2 Celebici for you all to drink, but you stated before

3 that sometimes you were allowed to splash your face with

4 water; is that not correct?

5 A. Yes. That was at the beginning. Later on when the heat

6 was at the greatest, it was very difficult to get any

7 water. In my case, and those people who were sitting

8 around me, our situation was the most difficult because

9 we were sitting at the top and the door was far away.

10 Konjic is very hot in the summer. We perspired a lot.

11 We needed quite a lot of liquid and we did not have

12 that. We were very many, many of us, 240 or

13 thereabouts.

14 Q. You were provided with salt during that period too to

15 keep you from losing so many liquids, were you not?

16 A. No.

17 Q. I believe you have stated on Thursday that when the

18 prisoners were brought back in and they had been beaten,

19 you would rub salt on their bruises; is that correct?

20 A. Yes. Some of them. That is out of the detainees some

21 people had parents living nearby, and some of them knew

22 the guards. They used to work with them previously. So

23 they would pass on some food. Later on even visits were

24 admitted, first of all once a week, then twice a week

25 and then again just once a week. Those people who had

Page 1538

1 some family, that family was able to bring some kind of

2 food or blankets or some clothes.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to go back to a specific date,

4 and I know you are not real clear on specific dates, but

5 this may bring to mind the date that all this occurred.

6 You said that all of the prisoners were beaten after

7 July 12th; is that not correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. July 12th has a significance to it, does it not?

10 A. Yes. It is a Serbian religious holiday, Saint Peter's

11 day, Petko Dan, if that is what you mean.

12 Q. That was not what I meant, but I have just been

13 educated. Thank you. That was also the day I believe

14 that the military police were murdered somewhere around

15 Bradina; is that not true?

16 A. I do not know who killed whom, but according to what the

17 guards told us there was a van up there with I don't

18 know how many policemen in it and also some inhabitants

19 from Repovci were there. It was hit by a shell. Then

20 what I heard at Celebici and later on at Musala, the

21 Serbs were apparently accused of it, as if these were

22 the remains of some Serb resistance around there, but

23 later on it turned out that it wasn't correct. There

24 was some kind of internal rows and the guards later on

25 admitted it. It is just that because of that we were

Page 1539

1 beaten for several weeks very severely at Celebici.

2 Q. Because of the significance of that July 12th, when that

3 happened, that is the fact on July 12th the guards were

4 told that Serbians had done that, even though it may

5 have turned out later that they had not committed this

6 crime, on July 12th that is what they believed, was it

7 not?

8 A. I don't know. How should I know that?

9 Q. Well, you were not told why you were beaten on July

10 12th?

11 A. Precisely because of that they were accusing some people

12 from Bradina. For example, Miso Kuljanin and some

13 others that were at the municipality in Hadzici,

14 currently at that time held by the Serbs.

15 Q. In fact, you knew that Mr Landzo had gone to the scene

16 of the murder of these military police, did you not?

17 A. Who would tell us? Who? We were not even allowed to

18 raise our eyes while they were there, let alone ask a

19 question.

20 Q. Now Bosko Samoukovic was beaten on July 12th, was he

21 not?

22 A. Dusko Samoukovic.

23 Q. Bosko Samoukovic?

24 A. Bosko Samoukovic, not on that day. It happened later,

25 towards the end of July. I don't remember the exact

Page 1540

1 date.

2 Q. Could I have the usher put the prosecution exhibit on

3 the ELMO, the one that the defendant drew, please --

4 I mean the witness drew? I do not know if mine is as

5 clear as their original. That would be fine with me if

6 you have the original one of these.

7 Now just for clarification's sake, you are sitting

8 at the middle of the wall to the left in hangar 6; is

9 that correct?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, I believe you had stated that

12 Mr Cecez was sitting against the wall; is that not what

13 you stated?

14 A. I think I simply said where he was when he found him

15 dead in the morning. That was here. I think he used to

16 sit somewhere there opposite the door. I can't tell you

17 exactly. There were quite a few of us there, and he did

18 not spend a long time in Celebici.

19 Q. In fact, Mr Cecez was sitting -- I am going to show you

20 -- in this line; he was sitting somewhere in here?

21 A. Maybe in one of the middle lines, yes, middle rows, yes.

22 Q. And the man called Keljo, he was also sitting in the

23 middle line, too, was he not? He was not sitting

24 against the wall, was he?

25 A. At first he was sitting against the, there in the

Page 1541

1 corner, more or less here, while he was -- how shall

2 I say -- while he was convalescing, while his ribs were

3 broken, and when he got slightly better, then he changed

4 his place. He was maybe from time to time even

5 privileged in being able to go out and have a cigarette

6 with some of the guards, not with all of them.

7 According to what he said, they asked money from him

8 because they thought he had money, as before the war he

9 had his own cafe in Konjic.

10 Q. In fact, this Keljo, as you said, he was invited out by

11 the guards to have cigarettes, and I am going to jump

12 ahead in my questioning. The night that he was killed

13 by the bullet, you know that a guard came in crying and

14 that was an accidental shooting, do you not?

15 A. I don't know. I was up there far away. Maybe that is

16 why I do not know some of the stories. The hangar is

17 very, very big, some 40 or 50 metres. We were not

18 allowed to walk around, so I don't know.

19 Q. Okay. I would like to ask you: you also said before

20 that you saw the guards and then seemed to be afraid of

21 coming in to where the prisoners were at night; is that

22 not right?

23 A. Yes. That was the case at the beginning.

24 Q. In fact, there were only two guards on duty at one time

25 guarding 240 prisoners; is that not correct?

Page 1542

1 A. How many guards were there I don't know or where they

2 were placed.

3 Q. I want to go back to Bosko Samoukovic. I am sorry if

4 I massacre these names. I will try harder. On the

5 drawing there on the ELMO will you please show where he

6 was standing when he was beaten?

7 A. Yes. Here in front of the entrance.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you. You stated that you were not allowed

9 to go into the JNA because you have poor eyesight; is

10 that not true?

11 A. No, I did not go and serve in the Yugoslav Army because

12 of that reason.

13 Q. You also stated on May 27th when you were arrested you

14 were forced to take off your glasses and stomp on them

15 in the road; is that not correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All you had was a twisted frame from then on; is that

18 not correct?

19 A. Yes. The frame remained on the road.

20 Q. You were sitting at the very back of the hangar; is that

21 not true?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You never had any glasses during the time you were at

24 Celebici, did you?

25 A. No, but I would just like to say that my eyesight is not

Page 1543

1 so bad for me not to be able to recognise a person I

2 have known for 40 years even if the distance is a bit...

3 More important, he was a friend of mine, Bosko, and he

4 was married to a cousin of mine. I knew him very, very

5 well.

6 Q. But you are near-sighted, are you not? You cannot see

7 at a distance. So am I.

8 A. Yes, but I can recognise a person I have known for

9 years.

10 Q. You also stated that you witnessed the torture of Momir

11 Kuljanin. Is that not what you said?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So if Momir Kuljanin said in his statement that this

14 occurred outside the hangar, is he lying?

15 A. I don't know what he stated, but I just know that the

16 palms of his hands were burnt and he had large blisters

17 on both hands. I can only say that I saw inside the

18 hangar the burns. I saw when it was done to Dusko

19 Bendjo.

20 Q. So as far as Momir Kuljanin is concerned, you did not

21 see what actually happened to him; you saw the results;

22 is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Because whatever happened to him happened outside the

25 hangar, outside of your presence, did it not?

Page 1544

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You also stated that you did witness some torture of a

3 Dusko Bendjo; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you know he is not coming here to testify, is he?

6 A. I don't know.

7 MR OSTBERG: I object to that question. It is not proper

8 to discuss who is coming and who is not coming to

9 testify. We do not know that for sure.

10 MS McMURREY: Your Honours, we have been allowed to discuss

11 it with every witness. They say "so and so can tell you

12 better because he is coming to testify" so evidently

13 they know. If he knows, then he is able to answer.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The question you asked was suggesting

15 the answer.

16 MS McMURREY: Yes, in cross-examination. I hope it does.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It was completely telling him the

18 answer.

19 MS McMURREY: May I ask it again?

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, if you want to.

21 MS McMURREY: Mr Gligorevic, you know that Dusko Bendjo is

22 not coming here to testify, is he?

23 A. I don't know. In fact, I don't know where he is now.

24 Q. You do know that he escaped from Musala and that he

25 ended up killing a guard, do you not?

Page 1545

1 A. At Musala? No, that is not true.

2 Q. Now, as far as you discussed the other day, a Simo

3 Jovanovic, did you not, and you said he was called out

4 by Zenga, but the truth is that you do not know what

5 happened outside the hangar, do you?

6 A. All I know is what I heard with my own ears and that is

7 his moanings and screamings and what happened

8 afterwards, after he was carried back into Hangar Number

9 6, and who did it outside I can't tell.

10 Q. Thank you. As far as -- you said you were good friends

11 with Cedo Avramovic, who was also a teacher; is that not

12 true?

13 A. Yes. Not that we were very good friends, but we were

14 acquaintances.

15 Q. He lived in Celebici, did he not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. As an acquaintance, you know that he had two sons that

18 were members of the BH army, or the TO in Sarajevo, did

19 you not?

20 A. No. Well, I worked in Hadzici in those years and he

21 worked in Celebici, and we wouldn't see each other for a

22 couple of years maybe. I don't even know how many

23 children he had. I know that his daughter was a

24 teacher. I don't know about his sons.

25 Q. So you didn't know that he have gave two automobiles to

Page 1546

1 the TO, did you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So you didn't know that the people who brought

4 Mr Avramovic to Celebici were HVO soldiers, did you?

5 A. No, I don't know that really.

6 Q. But you did state on Thursday, I believe, that no guards

7 had come into the hangar the night that Cedo Avramovic

8 died?

9 A. Yes. In fact, we were all asleep. I didn't hear anyone

10 come in.

11 Q. Thank you. Now you did not see Esad Landzo at Celebici

12 before the middle of June, did you?

13 A. Before mid what? I did not understand the question.

14 Q. You did not see Esad Landzo at the Celebici camp as a

15 guard before the middle of June 1992, did you?

16 A. I think he was there before that. I don't know that for

17 sure, but he was there before.

18 Q. But you do not know for sure?

19 A. Well, I don't know the exact date.

20 Q. You know that Mr Landzo left Celebici camp towards the

21 end of July, do you not?

22 A. No. In early August. I know that because two of my

23 relatives were the last people that he beat, and it was

24 on the 2nd or 3rd August.

25 Q. In fact, you saw Esad Landzo while you were at Musala,

Page 1547

1 did you not, in January of 1993?

2 A. At Musala?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. No. No.

5 Q. You did not know that he was a guard at Musala from June

6 1993 until April of 1993?

7 MR OSTBERG: I did not understand what time we were talking

8 about.

9 MS McMURREY: June -- I am sorry. January 1993 through

10 April of 1993. I am sorry. He was a guard at Musala,

11 was he not?

12 A. No. I don't remember that.

13 Q. You talked about the beatings that went on after like

14 July 12th. The guards were ordered to do those

15 beatings, were they not?

16 A. I don't know. How would I know?

17 Q. They were following orders as a rule, were they not?

18 A. Again I have to repeat I don't know. The same answer as

19 to your first question.

20 Q. I pass the witness, your Honour.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any other questions? Mrs Residovic?

22 MS McMURREY: Can I ask him one more question, your Honour,

23 just one more? The last time you saw Mr Landzo at

24 Celebici was around 2nd or 3rd August; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, thereabouts.

Page 1548

1 Q. Thank you.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. Ms Residovic, you can now

3 cross-examine.

4 Cross-examination by Ms Residovic.

5 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): May it please the court,

6 Mr Gligorevic, good afternoon.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. My name is Edina Residovic. I am the defence counsel

9 for Mr Zejnil Delalic. Mr Gligorevic, I will ask a few

10 questions and in order to clarify some events to the

11 Trial Chamber and to the defence, some of the events

12 that you testified about before this court. I will try

13 to make my questions short and clear, but if I do not

14 manage to do that, please indicate as soon as possible

15 so that I can rephrase my questions in such a way that

16 you are able to understand me. In relation to my

17 questions and your answers, I will also make a very

18 short note that my learned colleagues did not have to

19 make. We both speak the same language. We understand

20 each other and we could ask the questions and you could

21 give the answers very quickly. However, both my

22 question and your answer need to be interpreted, so that

23 the court can understand and follow, as all the other

24 participants in the proceedings. Since I am sometimes

25 warned by the Trial Chamber about that, I would like to

Page 1549

1 ask you if you could wait for a while after I ask the

2 question so that the question can be interpreted in full

3 and I will also try to wait for a while for your answer

4 to be interpreted. I think we agree on that.

5 Mr Gligorevic, when you testified before this

6 court, you unfortunately stated a fact that was very

7 hard for you, and that is the fact that you are one of

8 those people who remained in prison for the longest

9 period of time?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. In fact, you can confirm that you were arrested on 27th

12 May?

13 A. 1992, yes.

14 Q. 1992, and that only in October 1994 you were exchanged

15 with 87 -- actually 85 other Serbs from Musala?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. When you testified I noticed that you

18 mentioned the word "arrest." We sometimes use the word

19 "capture" or "taken prisoner", but I think it is all

20 the same which word we want to use. The Trial Chamber

21 will make the decision on what your status was on the

22 basis of the entire proceedings and the evidence

23 presented therein.

24 Can you confirm before this court that during your

25 stay in Celebici and later on in Musala that several

Page 1550

1 hundreds of Serbs were detained there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Yet, as far as I remember, you also testified that many

4 of those were not detained for such a long time as you

5 were?

6 A. Yes, that is true.

7 Q. Can you tell this court when the first prisoners were

8 released, the prisoners who had been brought in

9 Celebici?

10 A. I think that they were transferred to Musala. There was

11 a group of elderly people and I think they were

12 transferred maybe even before mid-June.

13 Q. Are you aware that immediately after the arrest a

14 substantial number of people who had been arrested were

15 released?

16 A. No, I don't know that. As far as I know a few people

17 were released. Maybe two or three persons that I know.

18 Maybe also some people that I do not know.

19 Q. Does it mean, Mr Gligorevic, that there were some

20 criteria according to which some people were released

21 and the others detained?

22 A. No. It was simply a question of knowing somebody,

23 either from work, and the groups of people that were

24 transferred to Musala, I suppose that the only criterion

25 was their age.

Page 1551

1 Q. You also testified that you were not a participant in

2 the resistance in Bradina?

3 A. No.

4 Q. It is also true that you were not organising the defence

5 of any kind?

6 A. No, I wasn't.

7 Q. Can you tell us or can you confirm is it true that some

8 people had a personal reason for detaining you for such

9 a long time?

10 A. No. I used to work in Bradina for a very long time.

11 Since 1975 I worked at Repovci. Maybe you know the

12 village better. It was a Muslim village. I worked in

13 Kravici. It was a Croatian village. I worked for six

14 years there. Nobody ever said a harsh word about me.

15 Q. Did you maybe have a conflict with the official

16 authorities in Konjic?

17 A. No, I said I worked my land in Bradina. Since 1975

18 I lived in Hadzici municipality.

19 Q. Do you know that the commission that questioned you for

20 a very short time categorised the prisoners in some way?

21 A. I heard about it, but nobody told me anything about

22 that.

23 Q. Do you think that somebody made a mistake when putting

24 you into the category that determined your status?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 1552

1 Q. Mr Gligorevic, in 1996 you gave a statement to the

2 prosecutor and on Thursday you testified that you were

3 questioned only on one occasion and that was in

4 Celebici; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. You stated then that there were three people who

7 questioned you?

8 A. There was only one person, a person wearing a camouflage

9 uniform. He was dark-haired, very rare hair. That's

10 the only thing I know of him. I never saw him

11 afterwards. I don't know his name.

12 Q. So it is not true if somebody was to state there was a

13 larger number of people who questioned?

14 A. No, no, there was only one person who questioned me, but

15 there were other people who interrogated other people

16 elsewhere.

17 Q. You testified before this court that as far as you were

18 able to gauge it, this questioning was just a formality?

19 A. Yes. It was done behind the building crouching on the

20 pavement, and if the judge is at the same time asking

21 questions and writing down answers without me saying

22 anything --

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You are still falling into the same

24 temptation of your dialogue with him.

25 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your Honour.

Page 1553

1 It's obvious that sometimes we forget ourselves and I

2 will try not to do that in the future. We will have to

3 slow down with our questions and answers. You stated

4 that during this formal questioning that was just a

5 formality you were not abused?

6 A. No, apart from the threats.

7 Q. And this was all happening outside of the building?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. At that time and at no other time you were told the

10 reason for your arrest; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that is correct. Nobody told me anything about it.

12 Q. You were never charged with anything. You also

13 testified that you were just asked questions about

14 weapons and some formations in Bradina?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So you still do not know the reason why you were

17 arrested?

18 A. No, I don't.

19 Q. You testified before this court that on 8th May you

20 arrived from Hadzici; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. Would the questions about the weapons that you were

23 asked and the fact that you arrived from Hadzici could

24 be the reason for your detention?

25 A. I don't think so. I don't believe it, because while we

Page 1554

1 were taken to Celebici, nobody was looking at who was

2 actually guilty of something or not. The only thing

3 that was important was to round up all the Serbs, young

4 and old. So they were all brought to Celebici.

5 Q. Mr Gligorevic, you said that you wrote the statement in

6 Cyrillic?

7 A. No, not the statement. The statement was written by the

8 person who questioned me. I simply signed it.

9 Q. You state that you usually signed in the Roman alphabet?

10 A. That moment I would have certainly used the Roman

11 alphabet.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms Residovic, we will have to stop

13 here. You will continue cross-examination tomorrow

14 morning.

15 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your Honour.




19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

20 5.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

21 the 2nd day of April, 1997 at

22 10.30 a.m.