Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3635

1 Monday, 9th June 1997

2 (10.00 am)

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

4 Back to where we are. Can we have the appearances,

5 please?

6 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, your Honours. As I believe the

7 Presiding Judge has been informed, lead counsel

8 Mr. Ostberg is away Monday through Wednesday for an

9 academic event. He will return on Thursday.

10 Meanwhile the Prosecution will continue. Also

11 I believe your Honours and most people in the courtroom

12 know, Mr. Ostberg is going to be leaving at some point in

13 July, and when he leaves, Mr. Grant Niemann will take

14 over as lead counsel. Because Mr. Ostberg is away we

15 thought it would be a fine time for Mr. Niemann to come

16 in and at least until Mr. Ostberg returns sit in. So I

17 am pleased this morning to present to your Honours

18 Mr. Grant Niemann here. I am Teresa McHenry.

19 Mr. Turone, Giuliano Turone is co-counsel. Mr. Stefan

20 Waespi, legal adviser with respect to certain matters at

21 issue here, and Ms. Elles van Dusschoten, case

22 manager. Thank you.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Welcome, Grant, to Celebici. Can we

24 hear the defence?

25 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your

Page 3636

1 Honours. My name is Edina Residovic, defence counsel

2 for Mr. Zejnil Delalic. With me in the defence team is

3 my colleague, Eugene O'Sullivan, Professor from Canada.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.

5 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your

6 Honours. My name is Zeljko Olujic, attorney from

7 Zagreb. With me as co-defendant (sic) is Mr. Michael

8 Greaves. Together we are defending Mr. Pavo Mucic, the

9 second accused in this trial.


11 MR. KARABDIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your

12 Honours. My name is Salih Karabdic, attorney from

13 Sarajevo, defence counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic. With me

14 in the team is Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston,

15 Texas.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much, Mr. Karabdic.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours. I'm John

18 Ackerman. I represent Esad Landzo. With me is

19 Cynthia McMurrey as co-counsel representing Mr. Landzo.

20 Thank you.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you. I think we are still on

22 the cross-examination of the last witness, I believe.

23 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, we are still in

24 examination-in-chief of Mr. Moerbauer.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Examination-in-chief. It is taking

Page 3637

1 quite a long time doing that.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: If your Honours will indulge me for just a

3 moment, you'll recall on Thursday that I pointed out to

4 the court that a couple of volumes of documents that had

5 been delivered by the Prosecutor were unable to be

6 found. They were very quickly located after I made

7 that announcement. I want to make it very clear for

8 the record of this matter that at the time I rose to

9 discuss that, I was trying to let the court know that

10 there may be some problem with access to those documents

11 for all defence counsel because of the fact that they

12 were missing. I did not intend at any point in those

13 remarks to suggest that the Registrar of this Tribunal

14 had in any way failed in terms of security and

15 protection of the defence chambers. To the extent that

16 it was heard in that light, I want to apologise to the

17 Registrar for those remarks. I had no intention of

18 implicating the Registrar in that matter in any way at

19 all, but only to point out to the court that there may

20 be a problem with us accessing the documents for

21 purposes of cross-examination of the witness. So to

22 the extent that the Registrar became concerned about

23 that matter, I had no intention of getting the Registrar

24 involved, and certainly apologise to the Registrar if

25 anybody in this courtroom or outside this courtroom saw

Page 3638

1 it as any kind of a complaint about the kind of job the

2 Registrar does for this Tribunal. Thank you.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much, Mr. Ackerman, for

4 your position. I think nobody really ought to have

5 thought that you were inferring any misconduct or

6 careless handling of the security. I know it was

7 understood perhaps something must have gone amiss

8 somewhere. I did not understand it as such. I know

9 many others did not. Can we have the witness?

10 (Witness enters court)

11 (Interpreter enters court)

12 Mr. Thomas Moerbauer (continued)

13 Examined by Mr. Turone (continued)

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Remind him he is still under oath.

15 THE REGISTRAR: May I remind you, Mr. Moerbauer, that you

16 are still under oath?

17 A. (In interpretation): Yes.

18 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry, your Honour. We didn't hear.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Whether the interpreter is sworn ...

20 JUDGE JAN: She's a different lady.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let her take the oath.

22 JUDGE JAN: She has to take an oath that she will translate

23 correctly.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let her swear the oath.

25 (Interpreter sworn)

Page 3639

1 MR. TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

3 MR. TURONE: Mr. Moerbauer, going back to the afternoon of

4 March 18th, 1996, you said that your colleague, Navrat,

5 brought into Room 331 the materials seized in the

6 premises of the firm INDA-BAU right after the house

7 search; is that correct?

8 A. (Not translated).

9 THE INTERPRETER: The witness will have to repeat. His

10 microphone was not on, I'm afraid.

11 A. Yes. Navrat on 18th March in the afternoon brought the

12 objects to me in Room 331 of police headquarters in

13 Vienna.

14 MR. TURONE: You said that among the seized material brought

15 by Mr. Navrat there were about 50 videotapes, which were

16 later classified by your colleague Panzer and watched by

17 you; is that correct?

18 A. Yes. There were around fifty videotapes and Panzer

19 numbered them, but only in the coming, the following

20 days, that is to say the following day.

21 Q. Yes. Now may I ask the Registrar to show to

22 Mr. Moerbauer the three items, the three videotapes,

23 which has been marked with numbers 114, 115 and 116,

24 please? (Handed to witness)

25 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, we object

Page 3640

1 to the showing of these exhibits. The witness has just

2 said that the videos were numbered the following days.

3 He cannot identify the origin of these videos.

4 MR. TURONE: Your Honours, these videos were classified the

5 following days but they were given anyway to

6 Mr. Moerbauer, so even if we are going to seek leave in

7 order to call Mr. Panzer as a witness, we will like to

8 show anyway the three videotapes to Mr. Moerbauer in

9 order to ask him if he is in a position to recognise

10 them from their external appearance anyway, since he had

11 them in his hands for a relevant period of time.

12 JUDGE JAN: You are also going to call Mr. Navrat?

13 MR. TURONE: We are going to examine them.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours --


16 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): We have already learned

17 that there is a certain difference in the number of

18 videotapes. We don't even know whether these

19 videotapes were there. So on the basis of our previous

20 objections, which were accepted by the Trial Chamber,

21 this witness cannot identify these objects, because he

22 did not participate in the house search and he gained

23 possession of certain tapes the following days.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Now I think it's safer for you to wait

25 for the person who actually seized these tapes, so that

Page 3641

1 he can identify the tapes he seized.

2 MR. TURONE: Yes, your Honours. We are going to call

3 Mr. Navrat to testify on that, but we believe that in

4 order to save time and money, we can anyway today show

5 these videos also to Mr. Moerbauer, since the videos --

6 they are the videos he received, and then examined from

7 Mr. Navrat. So I ask your Honours --

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No one puts the cart before the

9 horse. I thought if you really mean to introduce

10 evidence that someone else seized those tapes and handed

11 them to him, I think it's fairer to bring that person

12 first. Unfortunately if you have not brought him here,

13 then you might bring him later.

14 MR. TURONE: We believe that anyway Mr. Navrat will be called

15 to testify, but if he is going to testify in the next

16 future, we might be in a position to call back

17 Mr. Moerbauer to ask him whether they -- these videotapes

18 were the ones he had the possibility to watch later on

19 under an order of Mr. Gschwendt. So I would like to ask

20 this question anyway immediately to Mr. Moerbauer in

21 order to find out whether he can identify that these are

22 the videos he received by Mr. Navrat and then examined

23 himself. Am I allowed to anyway ask this question to

24 the witness?

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can. You can.

Page 3642

1 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour. So can you --

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think your undertaking to call the

3 person who seized them still stands.

4 MR. TURONE: Of course we are going to call Mr. Navrat, who

5 seized the videos, and even Mr. Panzer, who classified

6 them.

7 JUDGE JAN: Are there any identifying marks?

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Clarify your objections, Ms. Residovic.

9 JUDGE JAN: Just identify any marks.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Those who were responsible for seizing

11 the tapes, those who gave the tapes to them will be

12 called to give evidence. If you have any difficulties

13 at that stage, you can put your questions to them. So

14 what is now being formally to lay the foundation of how

15 he got these tapes and what he did with them. So for

16 that purpose his evidence will be accepted.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I objected

18 and I appreciate the decision of the Trial Chamber.

19 MR. TURONE: So, Mr. Moerbauer, are you in a position to

20 recognise these three videos only from the -- from their

21 external appearance and the stickers or labels which

22 appear on them?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you look at them and tell them -- what can you say

25 about them and how do you recognise them?

Page 3643

1 A. On the basis of the numbering system. This was taken

2 from INDA-BAU at Koppstrasse 22. These videos were

3 given to me by Navrat in the office, in police

4 headquarters, and this is on the cover and on the tape

5 itself, and that's the numbering system that's put on

6 there by Panzer.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Moerbauer. Mr. Moerbauer, you say that

8 among the seized material brought by Mr. Navrat and given

9 to you by Mr. Navrat and coming from INDA-BAU there were

10 also 12 files?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. Which you also later examined thoroughly; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes. That's right.

15 Q. Before going ahead, I would like to be sure did the

16 Registrar show him the three videos or only one? Only

17 one. I'm sorry. All three videotapes have to be shown

18 to him.

19 A. This video as well, numbered I25, was given me by Navrat

20 and Panzer put the stickers on it, the I25. They're

21 both on the case and on the videotape itself. This

22 would have come from INDA-BAU at Koppstrasse 14.

23 Now this videotape has our numbering system on it,

24 I46. That's both the case and the videotape itself.

25 This videotape was also handed over by Navrat and

Page 3644

1 numbered by Panzer. Now, again Koppstrasse 14 would be

2 the source on the basis of the numbering.

3 Q. All right then. So you already told us about the 12

4 files which you received from Mr. Navrat, and you also

5 reported to us that while you were still in Taubergasse

6 you received from your colleague Unger and Winkelmann

7 material seized in Delalic's apartment, which was later

8 also examined by you in detail; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. Did you receive this material from Mr. Unger or

11 Mr. Winkelmann?

12 A. I received the objects from Taubergasse 15/14, the

13 objects seized there at the door. At the end of the

14 search, Taubergasse 15, Door 14, I was given a black

15 sports bag by Unger and the record of the search and the

16 keys to the apartment, which I then handed over to Mr.s

17 Delalic, the keys.

18 Q. You received that in the very apartment of Mr. Delalic?

19 A. It was at the door, in front of the apartment.

20 Q. So at this point may I ask the Registrar to hand over

21 again the binders of the original documents to

22 Mr. Moerbauer?

23 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I object

24 to the showing of these documents to the witness. The

25 witness did not take part in the search of the

Page 3645

1 apartment. The witness according to his own testimony

2 received a sports bag and not any documents. According

3 to his own testimony it was only from 22nd March-2nd

4 April that the witness examined some papers. There is

5 no basis for him to recognise these documents.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Turone, can you react to this?

7 MR. TURONE: Yes, your Honour. Mr. Moerbauer can identify

8 the documents that he received from other people

9 immediately inside the headquarters of the police. He

10 can -- he is actually the only person who, pursuant to a

11 specific order of the chief of the unit, could examine

12 thoroughly all the seized documents. So he's the

13 person who can identify one by one the documents which

14 he received either from Mr. Unger or from Mr. Navrat, and

15 the documents which were examined by him pursuant to the

16 order of Mr. Gschwendt. There is -- your Honours have

17 indicated already that they wish to hear from the

18 several officers who actually seized the material and

19 then gave it to Mr. Moerbauer, but we are going to do

20 that, but it's still the case, however, that in addition

21 this witness be allowed to recognise every single

22 document he might have received from Unger, either Unger

23 or Navrat, because he is the only person who did a

24 specific detailed inventory of those documents. So

25 I repeat we will call Mr. Navrat, we will call Mr. Unger,

Page 3646

1 but -- we might even call back Mr. Moerbauer after that

2 in order to recognise at that time one by one the

3 documents he received from Mr. Navrat and from Mr. Unger,

4 but in order to save time and money, I think we might

5 ask this witness immediately to go through the documents

6 and see whether he can recognise documents which he

7 received either from Mr. Unger or from Mr. Navrat that

8 same day, March 18th, 1996. So may I be allowed to ask

9 the -- the argument is the same which applies to the

10 three videotapes we just have been showing to this

11 witness. Only Mr. Moerbauer can identify these

12 documents. We will call the other officers to say that

13 they seized certain material and then gave it to

14 Mr. Moerbauer, but we anyway need Mr. Moerbauer to say he

15 received certain material from other officers and he did

16 already, that he reviewed it, reviewed this material

17 carefully, and that he can now identify and recognising

18 documents one by one, since he was the only person who

19 did a detailed inventory of this seized material.

20 On the other hand, there's no real rule that chain

21 evidence must be given in any specific order, so there

22 is nothing wrong --

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please, please, let's not waste so

24 much time. You have said so much things about a simple

25 fact. I thought that since our last sitting it would

Page 3647

1 have occurred to you that the normal and better

2 procedure was to call those people first. Possibly you

3 have difficulties in doing that. Admit that and not

4 argue that there is no order in which a thing should be

5 called in a tidier way.

6 Now these documents or the tapes were not brought

7 from the air. They are related to certain places and

8 in respect of this trial. So you don't just call

9 anybody who got the documents or tapes after several

10 things have happened to state that he got the tapes.

11 The normal link was to have called those who took these

12 tapes or the documents were the place where it is

13 contested it was taken, but for purposes of facilitating

14 the trial, I think since you have undertaken to call

15 these witnesses, we would allow it to be given. That

16 evidence can now be given, provided, of course, you can

17 only tender it when the people who brought it from

18 Delalic's house can show that they got the tapes from

19 that house. Unless you did that, it will not be

20 admitted into evidence.

21 MR. TURONE: This is exactly what we intend to do, your

22 Honour.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, may I be

24 allowed to make an explanation?

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can make an explanation, but

Page 3648

1 you are delaying the matter, because we definitely would

2 allow this witness to say that he dealt with it on the

3 undertaking that those who handed the tapes to him would

4 come to say so, and then that would be the proper link

5 for how he got it. Yes, you can. You can say what

6 ...

7 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I am keen

8 on the expediency of these proceedings, but justice

9 comes first, and I appeal to you, your Honours, to

10 remember that on Thursday when an attempt was made to

11 show this witness a document numbered 10, a handwritten

12 document, you ruled that this witness could not be a

13 witness who could confirm those documents. I,

14 therefore, appeal to you, your Honours, to reconsider

15 our objection, because the witness was not present, he

16 did not receive any papers. He received a sports bag

17 and he gained possession of those papers from 22nd

18 March-2nd April. Therefore, it is a waste of time for

19 this witness to try to identify objects taken from the

20 apartment in which Mr. Delalic resided. I appeal to

21 you, therefore, to taking into account these arguments,

22 to make a final Ruling.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. We will take

24 them into account when we will decide whether it's

25 admissible or not. All these factors will be taken

Page 3649

1 into consideration.

2 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour. I want to make clear

3 our intention is not to tender for admission all these

4 documents today but only after at appropriate police

5 officers from Vienna will have testified as proper.

6 So may I ask you, Mr. Moerbauer, since you could

7 examine thoroughly the documents you received either

8 from Mr. Unger or from Mr. Navrat, I'll ask you to look

9 one by one at the documents contained in these two

10 binders in front of you, starting from the document

11 marked with number 113, which is the 10th document on --

12 my question for every single document is the same. So

13 do you recognise this document as one of the documents

14 originally contained either in the material you received

15 in Delalic's apartment from Mr. Unger or in any of the 12

16 files you received from Mr. Navrat at the police

17 headquarters, and --

18 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Objection.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. Let's --

20 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, this is the

21 document on which you ruled on Thursday that it could

22 not be shown to the witness.

23 MR. TURONE: May I say that the objection you raised last

24 week was slightly different, because the question was

25 probably put to the witness in an improper way. Now

Page 3650

1 the question is not whether he can identify this

2 document for having taken part in the search, in the

3 relative search. Now the question is whether he can

4 recognise, identify a document as one of the documents

5 he received from a colleague of his in the very day of

6 March 18th. So this is why the question is now

7 different and the recent Ruling of the Chamber in my

8 opinion allows the witness to answer to the question so

9 formulated.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, I don't think he's

11 attempting -- Prosecution is attempting here to say that

12 this is a document taken from the residence of

13 Delalic. He's not saying that. What he's saying is

14 this is a document given to him by a colleague in

15 whichever way he got it, but this he identifies as a

16 document given to him by his colleague. Now his

17 colleague, if he's called as a witness, will now say

18 where he got that document which I gave to this

19 witness. That is what he's trying to do. You can go

20 on.

21 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour. So can you watch this

22 document, which is now marked with number 113, the 10th

23 document in the binder, and say whether you recognise it

24 as a document you received by one of these -- of your

25 colleagues and in which binder, in which file was that

Page 3651

1 originally contained.

2 JUDGE JAN: Actually what you should ask him, the documents

3 which he recovered from the sports bag and the documents

4 which he received from Mr. Navrat separately, so that

5 Mr. Navrat, when he comes, he says: "Yes, these are the

6 documents which I recovered" and Mr. Unger --

7 MR. TURONE: Did you receive this document --

8 JUDGE JAN: Another important thing. When he received the

9 sports bag and he received the documents from INDA-BAU,

10 did they remain all the time in his custody before he

11 started his examination?

12 MR. TURONE: That was a question we already put in the last

13 hearing.

14 JUDGE JAN: Okay. That's all right. I thought I would

15 bring this to your notice.

16 A. This document was in the sports bag which was handed to

17 me from Taubergasse 15, Door 10, by Unger, and in the

18 analysis this document was located in binder with the

19 number 4.

20 Q. Thank you. Can you go ahead to the next document?

21 Skip the next documents, which are transcripts of

22 videos, and go to the document -- I'll tell you --

23 marked as 117 and say if you recognise it as a document

24 you received from Mr. Navrat and in which of the 12 files

25 was it originally contained?

Page 3652

1 A. I made an index myself of the seized items and here I

2 can locate the exact binder. Am I allowed to use this

3 index?


5 MR. TURONE: Yes, I think you can.

6 A. This document was in binder I2. This document was

7 handed to me by my colleague Navrat in the binder at

8 police headquarters in Vienna.

9 Q. Thank you. Then go on, please, to the next document,

10 which is marked with number 118. All these documents

11 can be put on the computer for convenience of everybody?

12 A. This document was also in -- was in binder I3, and it

13 was handed to me by my colleague Navrat at Vienna police

14 headquarters after the house search at Koppstrasse 14.

15 Q. Right. Go on to document 119, please.

16 A. This document was in binder I4 and was also amongst the

17 items that were handed to me by colleague Navrat

18 following the search at Koppstrasse 14. These were

19 handed to me at Vienna police headquarters.

20 Q. Yes. Please go to document numbered as 120?

21 A. This document was also in binder I4, handed to me by my

22 colleague Navrat at police headquarters, Vienna.

23 Q. Please go to the next document, which is number 121.

24 A. This document was located in binder I4, handed to me by

25 my colleague Navrat at police headquarters, Vienna.

Page 3653

1 Q. Let's go then to document marked as 122.

2 A. This document was also in binder I4, handed to me by my

3 colleague Navrat at Vienna police headquarters.

4 Q. Please go to 123.

5 A. This document was also in binder I4, handed to me by my

6 colleague Navrat following the search.

7 Q. Yes. Let's go to number 124.

8 A. This document was in binder I5 and was handed to me by

9 my colleague Navrat at police headquarters.

10 Q. Yes. Let's go, please, to document marked as 125?

11 A. This document was in binder I5 and was handed to me by

12 my colleague Navrat at police headquarters, Vienna.

13 Q. Yes. Please now go to document number 126.

14 A. This document was also in binder I5 and was handed to me

15 by my colleague Navrat at police headquarters in Vienna

16 following the search.

17 Q. Yes. Please go now to document 127.

18 A. This document was in binder I5 and was handed to me by

19 my colleague Navrat at police headquarters, Vienna.

20 Q. So please let's go now to document 128.

21 A. This document was in binder I5 and was handed to me by

22 my colleague Navrat at police headquarters in Vienna.

23 Q. Let's go now to the next document, which is 128,

24 I think. 9. I'm sorry.

25 A. Yes. This document was in binder I5 and was handed to

Page 3654

1 me by my colleague Navrat following the search at

2 Koppstrasse 14 at Vienna police headquarters.

3 Q. Thank you. Let's go then to document marked as 130.

4 A. This document was also in binder I5 and was handed to me

5 by my colleague Navrat at Vienna police headquarters.

6 Q. Go now to document 131.

7 A. This document was in binder I6 and was handed to me at

8 Vienna police headquarters by my colleague Navrat.

9 Q. Go now to number 132.

10 A. This document was in binder I6 and was handed to me by

11 my colleague Navrat at Vienna police headquarters.

12 Q. Yes. Thank you. Let's see now document number 133.

13 A. This identity card was in binder I6 and was handed to me

14 by my colleague Navrat at police headquarters in Vienna.

15 Q. Let's see now, please, document number 134.

16 A. This document was also in binder I6 and was given to me

17 by my colleague Navrat at Vienna police headquarters.

18 Q. Thank you. Let's go now to document marked as 135 -- 4

19 maybe -- 5, 35.

20 A. This document, this ID card, was in binder I7, and was

21 handed to me by my colleague Navrat at Vienna police

22 headquarters.

23 Q. Please let's go now to document 136?

24 A. This document was in binder I8 and was handed to me by

25 my colleague Navrat at Vienna police headquarters.

Page 3655

1 Q. Please let's go now to document 137.

2 A. This document was in binder I8 and was also handed to me

3 by my colleague Navrat at Vienna police headquarters.

4 Q. Let's go now to document 138.

5 A. This document was in binder I8 and was handed to me by

6 my colleague Navrat at Vienna police headquarters.

7 Q. Let's go then to document marked as 139.

8 A. This document was in binder I8 and was handed to me by

9 my colleague Navrat at Vienna police headquarters.

10 Q. Let's go then to document 140, please.

11 A. This document was located in binder I8 and was handed to

12 me by my colleague Navrat at Vienna police headquarters.

13 Q. Thank you. Let's now go to document 141, please.

14 A. This document was located in binder I8 and was handed to

15 me by my colleague Navrat at Vienna police headquarters.

16 Q. Thank you. Let's now go to the document marked as 142,

17 please.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we make some progress in what

19 you're doing?

20 JUDGE JAN: How many more documents have you?

21 MR. TURONE: We're almost at the end of it.

22 JUDGE JAN: I see. I thought you could give him the

23 numbers and he could check and then say all in one

24 sentence: "These documents were handed to me".

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, your Honour, please.

Page 3656

1 Microphone.

2 A. This document was located in binder I10 and was handed

3 to me by my colleague Navrat.

4 MR. TURONE: Thank you. Let's go then to document 143,

5 please.

6 A. This document was in binder I10 and was handed to me by

7 my colleague Navrat at Vienna police headquarters.

8 Q. What about document numbered as 144?

9 A. This document was in binder I11 and was handed to me by

10 my colleague Navrat at Vienna police headquarters.

11 Q. Thank you. Let's go to document 145, please.

12 A. This document was in binder I11 and was handed to me by

13 my colleague Navrat at Vienna police headquarters.

14 Q. Go, please, to document 146.

15 A. This document was located in binder I11 and was also

16 handed to me by my colleague Navrat.

17 Q. Okay. Let's go now to see the group, small group of

18 documents marked by the Registrar as 147 A, B, C. What

19 can you say about those documents?

20 A. These documents were located in binder I11, and these

21 documents -- copies were made of these documents for the

22 Tribunal on 18th March 1996, and these documents -- only

23 copies of these documents were found in police files,

24 were located in police files.

25 Q. Can you explain in detail the incident which occurred

Page 3657

1 about these documents?

2 A. After on 18th March copies had been made for the people

3 in the Tribunal, then for each document I went and made

4 two copies. So for those documents I made two copies,

5 one for the people from the Tribunal and one for the

6 police administration. A mistake must have been made

7 in that an original must have been handed over to the

8 people of the Tribunal as a copy.

9 Q. All right. So this is the end --

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What do you suggest in respect of that

11 last document?

12 MR. TURONE: I beg your pardon?

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What is your suggestion?

14 MR. TURONE: Our intention is to call one of our

15 investigators as a witness on this incident, which took

16 place on March 18th in the police headquarters in

17 Vienna, and ask him about this handing over not only of

18 the copies of these three documents but for a mistake

19 also of the originals. So the originals arrived in

20 advance to this Tribunal, and we'll clarify that with

21 the testimony of the investigator who received both

22 copies and originals of these three last documents.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Then why is he giving evidence of them

24 when, in fact, he did not deal with the originals

25 himself?

Page 3658

1 MR. TURONE: Actually he saw in his office only the

2 photocopies of these documents, because when he

3 photocopied the documents for the Tribunal, for the

4 ICTY, he did two copies, he said, one for the Tribunal

5 and one for his own files. So he found only the

6 photocopies and not the originals any more.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: So he could not have said anything

8 about the original, since he never saw it at any stage.

9 A.

10 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, he saw the originals, because he

11 was the person who photocopied from the originals for

12 the ICTY, and the real mistake was the handing over of

13 the originals together with the copies of these three

14 documents, but this might be clarified when the

15 investigator of this Tribunal will come and say what

16 happened exactly. Of course, we're not insisting or

17 claiming that we might prove everything concerning these

18 three documents through this witness, but this witness

19 can say what he said about these documents and we wanted

20 him to say what he knew about these documents and, of

21 course, his statement will be assessed together with the

22 statement of the investigator, and your Honours will

23 assess whether that is or is not enough in order to the

24 future admissibility of these documents. I repeat that

25 we are not going to tender any of these documents until

Page 3659

1 all the appropriate witnesses will have testified on

2 those.

3 So the last document which is contained in the

4 binder, Mr. Moerbauer, is marked as 148, and this is

5 nothing to do with the seizures. Could you please say

6 whether you can identify this document 148?

7 A. Yes. This is the record, the Niederschrift. This is

8 on the basis of the questioning on 18th March 1996.

9 Q. Can you recognise your signature on this document?

10 A. Yes, I do recognise my signature.

11 Q. Now I am at the end of my examination-in-chief, but

12 before that I would like to mark for identification the

13 original search record concerning the house search which

14 was handled directly by this witness in the apartment of

15 Mr. Mucic. May I ask -- this Niederschrift, this search

16 record, already made available to the defence lawyers,

17 but we have further copies for them if they wish, and we

18 have copies, of course, for your Honours?

19 JUDGE JAN: What is this document? I'm not very clear.

20 MR. TURONE: The search record, the search record itself.


22 MR. TURONE: Of the house search which Mr. Moerbauer took

23 part in personally. So the search carried on in the

24 apartment of Mr. Mucic in Taubergasse.

25 JUDGE JAN: This is the record prepared?

Page 3660

1 MR. TURONE: The protocol and record prepared and signed by

2 Mucic on the spot of the house search concerning the

3 apartment of Mr. Mucic. This is the house search in

4 which Mr. Moerbauer was present and was one of the

5 officers who carried on the house search. I beg your

6 pardon. Maybe the confusion is done because the word

7 "Niederschrift" in German means record generally. I'm

8 not speaking about the record of the interview, the

9 police interview of Mr. Mucic. I'm talking about the

10 record of the house search done in the apartment of

11 Mr. Mucic. So I would like you, Mr. Moerbauer, to tell

12 us: do you recognise this document?

13 A. Yes, I do recognise this document.

14 Q. And what is this document?

15 A. This document is the Niederschrift, the record that is

16 drawn up in connection with a search, and it tells you

17 about the search and about the objects seized.

18 Q. Which search exactly?

19 A. This is the search in the apartment of Zdravko Mucic,

20 Vienna 17, Taubergasse 15, Door 10.

21 Q. Can you say which signatures appear on that?

22 A. Borlak, Panzer, Bycek, Moerbauer are the officers who

23 signed this, and then this document bears the signature

24 of Zdravko Mucic.

25 JUDGE JAN: There is an English translation of this

Page 3661

1 report?

2 MR. TURONE: The English translation will be prepared as

3 soon as possible of course, your Honour. Do you

4 recognise your own signature?

5 A. Yes, those are my initials there.

6 Q. Your Honour, I'm at the end of my

7 examination-in-chief. I would say that my intention is

8 after this testimony to tender for admission only four

9 documents, the two passports and the two ID cards which

10 were seized by this witness in the apartment of

11 Mr. Mucic, and we tender -- we'll tender for admission

12 also the record of the police interview of Mucic dated

13 18th March 1996 as well as the search record concerning

14 his own apartment. Anyway, we accept -- we do not

15 object to do all this after the end of all the

16 cross-examinations of this witness. We postpone the

17 tendering of any other item after the testimonies of

18 other appropriate witnesses, officers of the Vienna

19 police and also our investigator concerning the last

20 three documents, for which the Prosecution will seek

21 leave to insert their names in the witness list.

22 Concerning the very first document, the one marked as

23 104, our inclination is to consider it only an aide

24 memoire for the witness and we're not going to tender it

25 as evidence anyway. So this is the end of the

Page 3662

1 examination-in-chief and the videos also will be

2 tendered after Mr. Panzer will have and Mr. Navrat will

3 have testified.

4 So right now the tendering for admission will deal

5 with four documents seized in Mucic's apartment, the

6 interview of Mucic and the search record I would say

7 after cross-examinations will be over, if your Honours

8 deem that. Thank you very much.

9 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, one --

10 JUDGE JAN: You are not tendering that information which

11 was given. We were told by Mr. Gschwendt that the

12 document is given to the person detained containing his

13 rights. Are you not tendering that in evidence?

14 MR. TURONE: We tendered that already together with the

15 testimony of Mr. Gschwendt.

16 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, just so I'm clear on this, as

17 I understand it the Prosecution is not now and has no

18 intention of ever introducing Prosecution Exhibit 104;

19 is that correct?

20 MR. TURONE: Our original intention was to tender exhibit

21 104 as exhibit for admission, but let us say we do not

22 feel so strong about that. We could also consider that

23 simply as an aide-memoire this witness used for

24 testifying unless, of course, defence lawyers would --

25 should appreciate that document and your Honours should

Page 3663

1 think it is useful as evidence. In that case we would

2 be happy to go back to our original intention.

3 MR. MORAN: The --

4 JUDGE JAN: He has left that to you.

5 MR. MORAN: The reason I ask that, your Honour, is that

6 thing is full of references to documents that we've

7 never seen, are not any part of the record of this

8 case. It has got analysis in the thing: "This means

9 that. Something else means something else". To me it

10 is something that if they are not going to introduce it

11 into evidence, I don't know why it's in the record and

12 I would like it removed from the record.

13 MR. GREAVES: I support what Mr. Moran says.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is it part of the record now? As

15 what?

16 MR. GREAVES: It has been described as an aide-memoire. An

17 aide memoire can't be evidence.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It can be if it is tendered.

19 MR. GREAVES: If he is using it as an aide-memoire, it is

20 simply refreshing his memory. That is not, my

21 submission, a piece of evidence.

22 JUDGE JAN: He's not insisting on it. He said he left it

23 to you.

24 MR. GREAVES: Well, we object to it.

25 JUDGE JAN: Okay.

Page 3664

1 MR. TURONE: Judge, I don't think the thing ought to be

2 anywhere around. I don't think it ought to be in my

3 notebook, your notebook. Presumably the Registrar will

4 keep a copy just to prove it was here at some point in

5 time, but it's just something that --

6 JUDGE JAN: We'll not look at it if it's not part of the

7 evidence.

8 MR. MORAN: I appreciate that, judge. I know that you

9 won't.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I should like to join my

11 colleagues in their objections. I should also like to

12 object to the tendered documents of two passports and

13 two ID cards being admitted because, according to the

14 testimony of this witness, he was not present in the

15 apartment of Mr. Mucic throughout the search.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He has not tendered them yet, has he?

17 He hasn't. He's merely telling you he would wish to.

18 Until it is tendered and received, we could not regard

19 it as anything valid here.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will now rise and

21 resume at 12 o'clock for cross-examination.

22 (11.25 am)

23 (Short break)

24 (12.00)

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Would you kindly invite the witness?

Page 3665

1 (Witness re-entered court)

2 (Interpreter re-entered court)

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please remind the witness that he is

4 still under oath.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Moerbauer, I remind you that you are

6 still under oath.

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any cross-examination for this

9 witness?

10 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, your Honour. The cross-examination

11 will proceed in this way: first, counsel for Mr. Delalic;

12 second, counsel for Mr. Delic; third, counsel for

13 Mr. Landzo; and, fourth, counsel for Mr. Mucic.

14 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic

15 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good day, your

16 Honours. May I begin?

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you. Good day,

19 Mr. Moerbauer. My name is Edina Residovic. I'm

20 defence counsel for Mr. Delalic. I apologise. I have

21 some technical problems. Mr. Moerbauer, you confirmed,

22 testifying before this court, that you were an officer

23 of the Austrian police; is that so?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, you are working in the federal

Page 3666

1 administration in Vienna in the Department for State

2 Security; is that correct?

3 A. It is the division for the Protection of the State and

4 for the Protection of Peoples and Property.

5 Q. You have been an inspector since 1992; is that correct?

6 A. Since 1992 I have been a District Inspector.

7 Q. In the course of your training in addition to subjects

8 linked directly to policing, you also studied certain

9 legal subjects; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. And you were particularly familiar with the provisions

12 of the law on criminal procedure of Austria?

13 A. Yes, I do know these provisions for my activity.

14 Q. Actually you are applying the provisions of that law in

15 practice all the time?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. In your career you had many cases of arrest of suspects?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You also had many cases of house searches and searches

20 of other premises?

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. You also had many cases of temporary seizure of objects?

23 A. Yes, that is correct.

24 Q. You have also been trained for monitoring people and

25 collecting information about people?

Page 3667

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. In the case of arrest, seizure and search you are

3 obliged to strictly follow the instructions of the

4 court; is that so?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. You have also sought in the course of your career to

7 follow the instructions of the court and to abide by the

8 provisions of the Austrian law; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. You know that in the case of unlawful procedure, the

11 evidence you collect would not be admissible to the

12 court; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, would you agree with me if I say that

15 Vienna is an open European city?

16 A. Yes, I agree.

17 Q. And that there are more than 100,000 foreigners living

18 in it today?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. And that considering the work you do, you were often in

21 contact with foreigners, including when criminal

22 proceedings were being brought against them?

23 A. Yes, that is correct.

24 Q. In this connection you also had communications with

25 Interpol?

Page 3668

1 A. Yes, in this case, yes.

2 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, can you confirm that even before the war

3 in the territory of former Yugoslavia, in Austria and

4 more particularly in Vienna, a large number of people

5 from the territory of the former Yugoslavia were living

6 and working in Vienna?

7 A. I can confirm that.

8 Q. Would you agree with me that in the course of the war in

9 the territory of former Yugoslavia a certain change

10 occurred in the composition of people from the territory

11 of the former Yugoslavia?

12 A. Yes, that can be said.

13 Q. Is it true that before the war most of the people from

14 the former Yugoslavia were of Serbian ethnic origin and

15 during the war the number of people from Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina increased?

17 A. Yes, the majority of the population in Vienna were

18 citizens from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and,

19 secondly, were Bosnians and, third, Croatians, people of

20 Croatian ethnic origin.

21 Q. Thank you. Mr. Moerbauer, would you agree with me if

22 I said that it has been alleged that the Austrian police

23 is among the most capable in Europe?

24 A. I can't pass judgment on this, because I don't know

25 exactly how other police forces work.

Page 3669

1 JUDGE JAN: I thought you would agree.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): In any event, you can

3 confirm that your police is seeking to protect the

4 neutrality of Austria?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. And that Vienna is the headquarters of a certain number

7 of international organisations?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. And that for that reason the Austrian police are

10 equipped with significant technical facilities to be

11 able to perform their duties?

12 A. We have the technical facilities.

13 Q. You personally are working in the headquarters of the

14 Austrian Federal Police, which is in the centre of

15 Vienna?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. And this headquarters is also equipped with considerable

18 technical facilities for the taking of statements, for

19 copying, recording, re-recording and the like?

20 A. That is not correct. If you take video equipment, for

21 example, we don't have the possibility, for example, to

22 record, to make video recordings of questionings.

23 Q. I apologise. I can't hear again. Could you please

24 repeat your answer?

25 A. Concerning -- if you're talking about video equipment

Page 3670

1 for the video recording of questionings, then I can't

2 agree with you. We don't have a video camera.

3 Q. Do you have video equipment for re-recording?

4 A. Yes, we do have this equipment.

5 Q. You also have photocopying machinery?

6 A. Yes, we do.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Moerbauer, you participated in the

8 police operation that was conducted at the request of

9 the prosecution of the International Tribunal in

10 connection with the arrest of Mr. Mucic, the search of

11 the apartment and business premises, and temporary

12 confiscation of objects which allegedly belonged to

13 Mr. Zejnil Delalic and to Mr. Zdravko Mucic?

14 A. The administrative procedure, this was carried out

15 following an order, a court order, which followed an

16 extradition procedure from the International Tribunal

17 and from the Republic of Yugoslavia.

18 Q. Could somebody help us, please? We cannot hear the

19 interpretation.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we get any of the engineers to

21 come and look at it? (Pause). You can now carry on,

22 I think.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes, thank you. It's

24 fine now, your Honours. Mr. Moerbauer, I should like to

25 ask you to be kind enough to answer my question once

Page 3671

1 again. Did you participate in this police operation?

2 A. Yes, I did participate in this operation.

3 Q. The Austrian police prepared this operation well; is

4 that so?

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. You were linked to your colleagues in Germany?

7 A. I was not personally in contact.

8 Q. But you know that such a contact existed; is that so?

9 A. Yes, I was aware of this.

10 Q. In view of the fact that this was the first operation of

11 its kind, as you said, to act according to the law was

12 essential?

13 A. Yes, that is correct.

14 Q. You stated that the operation of house searches at all

15 the localities was carried out simultaneously; is that

16 correct?

17 A. It was planned as such.

18 Q. That is why you first took some information about the

19 premises that you were going to search?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. You also carried out the identification of persons

22 residing in those premises?

23 A. Yes, that is correct.

24 Q. And so you established that in Taubergasse number 15,

25 apartment number 10, was occupied by Mr. Zdravko Mucic?

Page 3672

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. You also established that in the apartment of MAS,

3 Taubergasse 15, apartment number 14, was occasionally

4 occupied by Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

5 A. Zejnil Delalic was registered at this address until

6 November of the previous year, but we're not able to

7 ascertain whether he was still residing there.

8 Q. Did you also establish that on the ground floor was the

9 BH Society, of this same building?

10 A. Yes, this was also ascertained.

11 Q. You also established that Rizvanovic Sefika, the sister

12 of Mr. Zejnil Delalic, was also residing at this address?

13 A. Sefika Delalic (sic) was registered at Taubergasse 15,

14 Door 14.

15 Q. You also established that at this address at the same

16 entrance Harija Delalic, Mr. Delalic's sister-in-law, was

17 residing?

18 A. As far as I can remember, Harieta (sic) Delalic was

19 registered at Taubergasse 15, but I don't know what

20 apartment exactly.

21 Q. All the information you have now confirmed was conveyed

22 by you to the court when you asked for a search warrant;

23 is that correct?

24 A. It was not me who obtained the search warrant. It was

25 from Department 210, and this was a result of a previous

Page 3673

1 procedure and the knowledge was transmitted from

2 Department 210 to the court.

3 Q. I should like to ask you, Mr. Moerbauer, if you could, to

4 look at these documents which have been submitted to the

5 court and to try and identify them. I beg the

6 assistance of the Registry so that the documents may be

7 shown to the witness and the Prosecution. (Handed to

8 Prosecution).

9 MS. McHENRY: May we just ask defence counsel if there are

10 English translations?

11 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I do not have English

12 translations. I should like the witness to see them

13 because they are in his native tongue. (Handed to

14 witness).

15 Mr. Moerbauer, is this document indicating that on

16 15th March 1996, with this date -- the document with

17 this date, was this document the document that was sent

18 to the judge, Dr Seda, the investigating judge?

19 A. This document contains -- belongs to a preliminary

20 procedure. It's part of a preliminary procedure and

21 this was not produced for this particular case. It was

22 for notification of this case. This notification is

23 annexed to a report, which is also in the court

24 proceedings.

25 Q. Will you please tell me whether this is a document which

Page 3674

1 says in the heading "Zahl: 1 313 168/1-II/10/K 1", the

2 first document?

3 A. All I know is that part -- well, with regard to this

4 registration information, this is part of the court

5 file.

6 Q. Did I read out well the number of the first page that

7 I gave to you and the date, 15th March 1996?

8 A. Yes. The reference there, that's from Division 210.

9 Now, the first page of this document was not drawn up by

10 our department, but the following four pages I do

11 recognise. That is the registration information I put

12 together. I do recognise that, and this was provided

13 in another connection, and for purposes of information

14 it was passed on to Magister Gross to Department 210.

15 It is on that basis that the court went ahead and issued

16 the search warrant.

17 Q. Yes, that is precisely what I'm asking, Mr. Moerbauer.

18 On the first page, which was not issued by your

19 department, the last sentence, does it ask the court to

20 issue search warrants?

21 A. Well, I do not know when the facts of Magister Gross

22 went to Dr Seda. This is the first time I've seen

23 this. All I can tell you is that I'm familiar with the

24 annex.

25 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, you have just said that you recognise the

Page 3675

1 next four pages. Could you tell me whether this is

2 information about all the tenants who were to be found

3 at the address Taubergasse number 15?

4 A. This registration information includes the following

5 people, who at one point in time were living -- were

6 registered as living there or de-registered as living at

7 that building in Taubergasse 15. This stems from the

8 police station of the 17th District in Vienna.

9 Q. Is it correct to say that this list contains more than

10 ten persons of age?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. Is it correct that on this list we find also the name of

13 Rizvanovic Sefika, the sister of Mr. Zejnil Delalic, as

14 the tenant at number 15, apartment number 15?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Moerbauer, you said that at the

17 beginning of March you met with representatives of

18 Interpol?

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. Before that meeting you personally were not aware, nor

21 did you have information to show that with respect to

22 Mr. Zejnil Delalic there was an extradition request on

23 the part of an international organisation or any other

24 country, Yugoslavia, Bosnia-Herzegovina or Croatia; is

25 that correct?

Page 3676

1 A. Previous to the get-together with the people from

2 Department 210 Panzer did make known to me on 6th March,

3 as far as I can recall, there had been some contacts

4 about the request for extradition concerning Zdravko

5 Mucic, and the get-together with the people from 210 was

6 brought to my attention only later. Well, it only

7 occurred later, and that's when details were discussed.

8 Q. Very well, but I asked you then before that you were not

9 aware at all of any requests with respect to Mr. Zejnil

10 Delalic?

11 A. Prior to 6th March, no.

12 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, you stated that you arrested Mr. Zdravko

13 Mucic on 18th March 1996 at 14:15 hours; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. You also stated that after the arrest during the

17 following fifteen minutes you went to his apartment?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. Therefore, you would agree with me if I say that you

20 entered Mr. Mucic's apartment at 14:30 hours?

21 A. Yes, between 2.15 and 2.30 in the afternoon. That

22 would have been the latest time.

23 Q. Did you, Mr. Moerbauer, enter together with Mr. Mucic --

24 did you enter his apartment together with Mr. Mucic?

25 A. Yes, we all entered the apartment together.

Page 3677

1 Q. Is it true that at that moment there was no one in the

2 apartment and that his daughter, Sanda, came a little

3 later?

4 A. As far as I can recall, Sanda Mucic was already in the

5 apartment. She may have come from the neighbouring

6 apartment to the apartment door, in fact.

7 Q. But the moment you entered, she was not in the

8 apartment?

9 A. I cannot remember that precisely.

10 Q. Can you, Mr. Moerbauer, remember which are the persons

11 who entered Mr. Mucic's apartment together with you?

12 A. Borlak, Bycek and Panzer, those officers?

13 Q. Thank you. When Sanda Mucic entered the apartment you

14 asked her to interpret your conversation with Mr. Mucic;

15 is that correct?

16 A. Yes. Sanda Mucic was in the apartment and explained --

17 well, we told her to explain to her father because he

18 didn't understand all that well. It was a bit of

19 excitement and apparently he lost his knowledge of

20 German at that moment. For the purpose of the arrest

21 we asked Sanda to explain matters to him, explain the

22 search, and this took place just at the entrance, the

23 little hallway within the apartment.

24 Q. At that moment you knew that Sanda Mucic was a minor and

25 that she was only 16?

Page 3678

1 A. I didn't note that fact, because I didn't go into any

2 details about Sanda Mucic, but on the basis of her

3 experience -- her appearance, one could readily take her

4 for 18 or 19 years of age.

5 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, you just confirmed that a report on the

6 tenants of Taubergasse 15 contains your -- the

7 information you collected about the tenants of that

8 building?

9 A. This report -- but this registration information was not

10 put together in connection with this operation. This

11 has to do with a different matter and it wasn't wholly

12 up-to-date, in fact. Now, these are the apartments --

13 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, you confirmed this information as being

14 yours. On page 2 it says that Sanda Mucic was born in

15 1979. Is that correct, that that is what is written

16 there?

17 A. This is what's in the registration information, yes.

18 Q. You just said, Mr. Moerbauer, that there was a bit of

19 excitement and that Mr. Mucic may have forgotten the

20 language that you assumed he spoke; is that what you

21 said?

22 A. Well, when we did our previous enquiries, we found that

23 Mucic had been questioned back in 1991 and that the

24 questioning proceeded without an interpreter, and this

25 was also on the basis of a court order that we went

Page 3679

1 ahead with the record of that interview, and we took it

2 that Mucic was acquainted with the German language, and

3 when he was under -- when we contacted him in the course

4 of our investigations on the 14th, we did find that he

5 did know some German.

6 Q. Yes, probably Mr. Mucic does speak some German, but you

7 said that he was excited. I would like to know whether

8 at the moment when Sanda Mucic entered the apartment and

9 saw her father being arrested was she, too, extremely

10 excited or upset, being a child?

11 A. Well, in fact, she dealt with it quite well, and a child

12 -- she was older than 14 so she was not a child

13 according to our legal system.

14 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, do you speak foreign languages and can you

15 assess to what extent somebody speaks a foreign

16 language?

17 A. I speak bad English and my knowledge of English must be

18 about equivalent to Mucic's knowledge of German. I'd

19 say we're on a par.

20 Q. But you don't speak Serbo-Croatian or Croato-Serbian at

21 all or, as it is nowadays more modern to describe it as,

22 Bosnian-Serbian-Croatian?

23 A. No, I do not.

24 Q. And you cannot assess at all whether a person is

25 interpreting correctly from these languages into German

Page 3680

1 and vice versa?

2 A. No, I don't have that possibility.

3 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, was Sanda Mucic present throughout and did

4 she interpret everything that was necessary for you?

5 A. She was present when Mr. Mucic was informed of the

6 grounds for the arrest and of the grounds of the

7 search. She was present there and she was also present

8 during part of the search.

9 Q. Therefore Sanda Mucic was present throughout the search

10 of the apartment in their apartment, which is in

11 Taubergasse 15, Apartment 10?

12 A. Well, as to whether she was there the whole time I can't

13 recall but at times -- at any event she was present at

14 the beginning when we began the search.

15 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, was Sanda Mucic the only person to

16 interpret to Zdravko Mucic what you wanted to convey to

17 him?

18 A. Harija Delalic and Anela Lizlic (si) were in the

19 apartment for a short period of time as well.

20 Q. Therefore you saw Harija Delalic in Mr. Mucic's

21 apartment?

22 A. Yes. She was near the entrance. The door was ajar,

23 the apartment door and in the entrance hall there were

24 those two women, Harija Delalic and the other woman

25 I mentioned.

Page 3681

1 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, was Sanda Mucic present during the search

2 carried out in the MAS company, which was situated at

3 number 28?

4 A. I'm not aware of that.

5 Q. Very well, Mr. Moerbauer. Let me ask you things that

6 you are aware of. A moment ago you said that roughly

7 around 2.30pm the search started of Mr. Zdravko Mucic's

8 apartment; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. On Thursday you stated that that search lasted about 45

11 minutes; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, that is correct. Now with regard to the exact

13 times involved, you can see what they are in the

14 records, in the documents.

15 Q. If it is correct that the search lasted 45 minutes, one

16 could roughly say that the search in Mr. Mucic's

17 apartment ended at 15:15; is that roughly correct?

18 A. No. The search I can't say if we put down the time at

19 which it was over, that is to say when we locked the

20 door.

21 Q. Thank you. The notes you made about the search are to

22 be found in the minutes made on the spot, which you call

23 Niederschrift; is that correct, Niederschrift?

24 A. The Niederschrift, the record began -- we started taking

25 that down in Mucic's apartment, and then we finished it

Page 3682

1 at police headquarters, but only in this case.

2 Q. But I'm asking you, Mr. Moerbauer, whether we are talking

3 about the Niederschrift in which, as you say, you

4 indicate the time when the search of a certain premises

5 has been completed?

6 A. In the Niederschrift you have the time when the search

7 was over or the time at which the apartment was

8 locked. I can't tell you precisely which of those two

9 times was indicated.

10 Q. Very well, Mr. Moerbauer. Please did you take part in

11 the search of the BH Society?

12 A. Yes, I was involved in that search as well.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, we are due for lunch

14 now. We can break for lunch. We will continue after

15 the lunch break.

16 (1.00 pm)

17 (Luncheon Adjournment)









Page 3683

1 (2.30pm)

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good afternoon, ladies and

3 gentlemen. Can we have the witness?

4 (Witness re-enters court)

5 (Interpreter re-enters court)

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, I think it is you still

7 cross-examining.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

9 Honours. Mr. Moerbauer, we could continue; right?

10 I think that the last question I had for you was whether

11 on that day, 18th March 1996, a search of the BH Club

12 was conducted simultaneously?

13 A. The search of the BH Club was not carried out at exactly

14 the same time. It was carried out by colleagues Bycek,

15 or there were three colleagues who were present.

16 Mr. Panzer was also there and myself and at this time the

17 search of his apartment ended and we began the search at

18 the BH Club.

19 Q. So you were in the BH Club during the search as well?

20 A. Yes, I was also present during the search of this club.

21 Q. Also present there as a witness was also Djemal Delalic,

22 who is the club secretary; is that correct?

23 A. I remember that Djemal Delalic was present during this

24 search.

25 Q. At that time during the search you knew that Djemal

Page 3684

1 Delalic was the brother of Zejnil Delalic?

2 A. Yes, I was aware of this.

3 Q. Mr. Panzer was also aware of that, Mr. Panzer who, as you

4 said, was in charge of this police operation?

5 A. He also knew that this was the brother of Zejnil

6 Delalic.

7 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, on that day a search was also conducted of

8 the MAS company?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. Zdravko Mucic was also present at this search in the MAS

11 company; is that correct?

12 A. Zdravko Mucic was not present during the search, that is

13 Taubergasse 28, the MAS company.

14 Q. Thank you. You had regularly issued warrants for all

15 these searches; is that correct?

16 A. We had search warrants in two versions. The first

17 warrant, search warrant, was for four addresses or five

18 addresses, because Taubergasse 14 and Taubergasse 16

19 were given. These search warrants were not quite

20 up-to-date, that is the premises where they should be

21 carried out were not quite updated, so there was a

22 proposal made to the court for these search warrants, so

23 a second search warrant was issued where the premises

24 were given more accurately. This was done by the

25 court. So Taubergasse 15, Door 10, and Taubergasse 15

Page 3685

1 and 15 were not given accurately on the first search

2 warrant and the --

3 Q. Thank you. I would maybe prefer you to give me shorter

4 answers, even though I appreciate some of the longer

5 ones that you have given me. I am going to give you

6 this other warrant, so if I can have the usher to please

7 show this to the Prosecution first and then pass it on

8 to the witness. Thank you. (Handed to

9 Prosecution). (Handed to witness).

10 Mr. Moerbauer, is this the warrant that you have

11 just mentioned?

12 A. That's the last search warrant that we received from the

13 court.

14 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, did you serve the search warrant on

15 Mr. Delalic on that day?

16 A. Mr. Delalic, Zejnil Delalic or Djemal Delalic? Which?

17 Q. Zejnil Delalic?

18 A. Zejnil Delalic could not be served this warrant, because

19 he was not in Vienna.

20 Q. He was not served this warrant within the following 24

21 hours either; is that correct?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. And this warrant has not been served on him until the

24 present day; is that correct?

25 A. He has still not yet been served this warrant. The

Page 3686

1 police did not serve this warrant on Zejnil Delalic.

2 Q. Is it correct that at the bottom of page 1 of this

3 document, of this police warrant, it says that you had

4 to serve it immediately or within the next 24 hours?

5 A. That is corrected -- this is correct, and this was

6 carried out.

7 Q. Please look at the line seven from the top on this page

8 of the document, and if you can find where it says that

9 the items that refer to the war crimes in Bosnia and

10 especially the prisoner torture videotapes are to be

11 examined. Is this correct?

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, I would like to confirm whether

14 I understood well what you said in the direct

15 examination. Is it correct that you -- that on

16 March 18th at the address of Taubergasse 15 as well as

17 other premises you started the search warrants that are

18 quoted in the warrants issued by the Tribunal at roughly

19 the same time?

20 A. More or less, yes. That is correct.

21 Q. Did I understand correctly, Mr. Moerbauer, that you

22 stated that you, together with Mr. Mucic and your

23 colleagues, whom you have also mentioned today, as well

24 as Sanda Mucic, entered the apartment of Mr. Mucic, where

25 you conducted the search?

Page 3687

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. Is it correct that you at that time did not go to the

3 second floor where the search of the apartment where

4 Mr. Delalic was staying was also to be conducted?

5 A. Shortly -- at Door 10, when the search was finished in

6 Zdravko Mucic's apartment at Door 10, then the search

7 was carried out at the MAS company. I was very shortly

8 -- I spent a short amount of time at Door 14.

9 Q. Please, sir, if you could just answer this question now,

10 and then that question will follow. In other words, at

11 the time when you entered the apartment of Mr. Mucic your

12 colleagues Unger and Winkelman went to the second floor

13 to search the apartment of Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

14 A. Yes, that is correct.

15 Q. You were not present at the time when they entered the

16 apartment of Mr. Delalic?

17 A. No, I was not present at that time.

18 Q. In fact, is it true that you stated that much later in

19 the apartment of Mr. Mucic, where you were at that time

20 with Mr. Mucic and Sanda Mucic and two other colleagues

21 of yours, another colleague came down, a colleague that

22 had been searching the apartment of Mr. Delalic, and he

23 informed you that in that apartment several documents

24 were found that -- regarding the former Yugoslavia; is

25 that correct?

Page 3688

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. Is it correct that at that point you climbed up to the

3 apartment of Zejnil Delalic and on a table you saw a

4 number of videotapes and documents?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. Is it correct that none of this material was marked in

7 any way; it was all in one heap?

8 A. That is also correct.

9 Q. Is it correct that at that time you said: "Fine. Let's

10 take all these documents along", and then you returned

11 to the apartment of Mr. Mucic?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. Is it correct that at that time the search in the

14 apartment of Mr. Mucic was not completed?

15 A. At that point in time the search had already finished.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Moerbauer. In the heap of materials that

17 you saw did you recognise items that regard the war --

18 materials relating to the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina and

19 to the torture of prisoners?

20 A. I saw some files. I also saw certificates, and they

21 were signed by a commander or they were for military

22 purposes, or for military activities, but I couldn't

23 establish this exactly, because it was in the

24 Serbo-Croatian language.

25 Q. And you did not have an interpreter along with you?

Page 3689

1 A. There was no interpreter present during the search.

2 Q. You did not order your colleagues to put together a

3 precisely drawn document with the items that were

4 outside of the court order?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, your Honour. Your interpreter

6 has not quite understood that question.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly repeat that.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Did you instruct your

9 colleagues to make a separate record of all the items

10 that did not concern the war crimes in

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the torture of prisoners?

12 A. I did not indicate this specifically here to the

13 colleagues.

14 Q. You also did not draw attention to your colleague that

15 this separate list should be forwarded directly to the

16 public prosecutor of Austria?

17 A. Colleagues had the search warrant and knew what it was

18 about and I did not give the colleagues any particular

19 indications. It was just a question of whether they

20 should seize the videotapes and the documents, and

21 I indicated that this should be done.

22 Q. At the time when you entered the apartment of Mr. Delalic

23 you only had contact with your colleagues Unger and

24 Winkelman in that premises; is that correct?

25 A. I only had contact with these two persons.

Page 3690

1 Q. At that time in the apartment of Mr. Delalic there were

2 no third persons present; is that correct?

3 A. I did not see any third person.

4 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, a short while ago we discussed Sanda

5 Mucic, and she's an underage person. Please can you

6 tell me whether you know that Sanda Mucic and her

7 brother, who is also very young, that both of them lived

8 only with their father?

9 A. Yes, I was aware of this.

10 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Moerbauer, that at one point while you

11 were in the apartment of Mr. Mucic a proposition was made

12 that Sanda Mucic, as an underage person, would be taken

13 and turned over to the appropriate authorities of the

14 social care services?

15 A. Harija Delalic was also in the apartment and in the

16 questioning with Zdravko Mucic this problem was also

17 discussed, and we were aware that the mother was also

18 present in Vienna and that the children could be left in

19 the apartment and Harija Delalic would be requested by

20 Mr. Mucic to take care of the -- future care of the

21 children.

22 Q. I will request now that you answer the following

23 questions in a very short way. So during the search of

24 the apartment of Zdravko Mucic the question was raised

25 where to put up Sanda Mucic?

Page 3691

1 A. This was discussed at the end of the search.

2 Q. This question was resolved in such a way that Ms.

3 Harija Delalic took on the obligation to take care of

4 Sanda Mucic; correct?

5 A. That was the provisional solution, yes.

6 Q. This took place in the apartment of Mr. Zdravko Mucic;

7 correct?

8 A. Yes, this occurred in the apartment.

9 Q. You also saw Harija Delalic later, when you gave her the

10 keys to the apartment where Mr. Zejnil Delalic used to

11 live?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. You did not see Harija Delalic on other occasions on

14 that day; is that correct?

15 A. It's possible that she was in the apartment of Delalic

16 or in front of the apartment of Delalic the first time

17 at least. Harija Delalic was in Mucic's apartment as

18 well and it's also possible that she spent a short time

19 in the apartment above.

20 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, do you recall that when asked by me you

21 answered that at the time when you were conducting this

22 search warrant in Mr. Mucic's place that Harija Delalic

23 was in front of the apartment of Mr. Mucic together with

24 another person?

25 A. I remember that Ms. Delalic was in the front room or

Page 3692

1 was in the doorway.

2 Q. You do not speak the truth before this Trial Chamber a

3 short while ago when asked by me you said when entering

4 of Mr. Delalic's apartment no third person was present

5 beside your colleagues?

6 A. I noticed Harija Delalic in the apartment above. I

7 don't know exactly when, but I can't answer the question

8 with 100 per cent accuracy as to whether she was in the

9 apartment or not.

10 Q. In other words, you are not sure where you saw Harija

11 Delalic on the second floor?

12 A. I'm not sure whether she was inside the apartment or in

13 front of it.

14 Q. Thank you. At that moment, Mr. Moerbauer, did you know

15 that Harija Delalic was the wife of the deceased

16 brothers of Mr. Zejnil Delalic, in other words, she was a

17 sister-in-law of Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

18 A. I was aware of this. Harija Delalic is the widow of

19 Sefik Delalic.

20 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, do you know that she lives on the first

21 floor immediately next to the apartment of Mr. Zdravko

22 Mucic?

23 A. She came out of this apartment but I didn't know exactly

24 whether she lived there or not.

25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Moerbauer, could you tell me whether

Page 3693

1 your colleagues informed you that Sevko Rizvanovic, the

2 sister of Mr. Delalic, asked to be present at the search

3 of the apartment of Mr. Delalic and she was removed by

4 your colleagues?

5 A. I don't know anything with regard to this.

6 Q. Do you know that your colleagues Unger and Winkelman

7 forbade Ms. Razeamedovic, who is an acquaintance of

8 Mr. Delalic, who was accidently in the building at that

9 time, to be present at the search and temporary seizure

10 of items?

11 A. I don't know anything with relation to this.

12 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, you said that your colleagues turned over

13 the items found -- items belonging to Mr. Delalic in

14 front of the apartment and these items were placed in a

15 sports bag; is that correct?

16 A. I got that sports or gym bag at the end of the search,

17 when the apartment was locked.

18 Q. In other words, you received this sports gym bag

19 together with the keys to the apartment of Mr. Delalic;

20 is that correct?

21 A. That's right, yes.

22 Q. You gave the keys to the apartment of Mr. Delalic to Ms.

23 Harija Delalic; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. You were also given the record, the Niederschrift, right

Page 3694

1 there on the spot; is that correct?

2 A. Yes. I got the record as well.

3 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, was this gym bag that you received outside

4 of the apartment of Mr. Delalic -- was this bag sealed

5 properly and taped properly?

6 A. The gym bag had a zipper on it so it could be zipped up

7 and it was brought to the vehicle, and then we drove to

8 police headquarters with it.

9 Q. But it is correct that it was not sealed and that the

10 zipper was easy to unzip?

11 A. That would have been possible, yes.

12 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, is it correct that on that day all planned

13 search on the premises in Taubergasse 15 was conducted,

14 that is including the BH Club, the apartment of Mr. Mucic

15 and the apartment in which Mr. Delalic stayed?

16 A. Yes, all three searches were carried out on that day.

17 Q. Is it correct that on that day, March 18th, the search

18 was also completed at the premises of the MAS company?

19 A. That is correct, yes.

20 Q. Is it correct that you know that on this day,

21 March 18th, a search was conducted of the Inda-Bau

22 premises as well and the apartment of Djemal Delalic?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Moerbauer, that after this day,

25 March 18th, no additional searches were conducted?

Page 3695

1 A. Yes, that is correct, not by our department at any event

2 and in relation to this case.

3 Q. In other words, there was no additional search of the

4 apartment where Mr. Delalic stayed?

5 A. Mr. Rea (sic) Delalic, is that what you're referring to?

6 Q. I mean additional, later, and I'm referring now to the

7 apartment where Mr. Delalic stayed?

8 A. Our department in this relation did not conduct any

9 further searches.

10 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, I'll now ask you to look at the

11 Niederschrift on the searches conducted so that I can

12 ask some more questions of you. I will ask that this

13 Niederschrift be shown to the Prosecution and then

14 passed on to the witness. (Handed to Prosecution).

15 (Handed to witness). Before the document is given to

16 the witness, I would request that it would be marked for

17 identification. Could we please have it marked, this

18 document?

19 THE REGISTRAR: That is already on. It's marked as

20 D40/1.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you.

22 Mr. Moerbauer, would you look at the last sentence on

23 this page, where it states: "18th March 1996 at 15:30

24 hours". Sir, since I don't speak German, could you

25 please confirm that this text means that the search in

Page 3696

1 the above-mentioned apartment -- I'm sorry -- that on

2 the premises in Taubergasse 15 the association

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina in the presence of Djemal Delalic, a

4 search was conducted on March 18th at 15:30 and that the

5 record, the Niederschrift, was given to this witness?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. Is it correct that the persons conducting the search are

8 Bycek, Panzer and you, Moerbauer?

9 A. That is correct, yes.

10 Q. Would you please read at the top right corner the text

11 that is stated there, please?

12 A. Which text are you referring to, please?

13 Q. It is the first page, the text starting with:

14 "Vienna, ..."

15 A. Vienna, that's in 8 or 9. You can't really make it

16 out. There's probably an error there in the wording.

17 Q. In other words, in that corner it states that this -- it

18 states that the search was conducted on 19th March 1996;

19 is that correct?

20 A. Yes. It could be half a 9 or half an 8 what I have

21 here, but this Niederschrift was drawn up on 18th March.

22 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, could you please look at the second

23 record, which is the Niederschrift of the search on the

24 premises of the MAS company? I also -- may I also have

25 it marked for identification and shown to the

Page 3697

1 Prosecution?

2 THE REGISTRAR: This is marked as D31/1. The transcript

3 said D40/1 for the earlier one, but that is D30/1.

4 (Handed to Prosecution). (Handed to witness).

5 A. This Niederschrift, this record --

6 Q. Please at the bottom of this record does it state that

7 the search was completed on 18th March 1996 at 15:15?

8 A. That's right, yes.

9 Q. Was this record signed by Mr. Zdravko Mucic?

10 A. Yes, it was signed by Mucic.

11 Q. At the top right corner does it say that the search was

12 conducted on 19th March 1996?

13 A. Well, the reason for that is the following. The

14 searches had been scheduled for 19th March and the

15 Niederschriften the records, were prepared. That's

16 also why they're typed. Now those were the things that

17 were hard and fast. Now the handwriting was added on

18 the spot, and that's also why there was this mistake

19 with the date.

20 Q. In other words, you confirmed that one part of this

21 record was put together beforehand in the police -- at

22 the police station; is that correct?

23 A. No, this is a standard form, and there's things that

24 have to be filled in, so those things that were hard and

25 fast, for example the person concerned, the crime, the

Page 3698

1 grounds for this search, that we knew, so that was

2 entered in there in advance, and the things that might

3 change, the officers involved, the witnesses, the seized

4 objects, etc, that was filled out only on the scene of

5 the search.

6 Q. In other words, a part of the record with certain

7 information on this form was put together at a different

8 location and much earlier; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, is it correct that a record can be signed

11 only by persons who were present at the search?

12 A. Yes, that is correct. There's an exception. When

13 it's signed by the person concerned.

14 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, did you confirm today that Mr. Zdravko

15 Mucic was not present at the search of the premises of

16 the MAS company?

17 A. That is right, yes.

18 Q. Were you telling the truth at that time?

19 A. Yes, that is the truth.

20 Q. It is true that Mr. Zdravko Mucic did sign this record?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, I would like you to look at the record,

23 the Niederschrift, of the apartment of Mr. Mucic together

24 with me, and I would also like to have it marked for

25 identification and shown to the Prosecution.

Page 3699

1 MR. TURONE: We did already mark this for identification

2 during the examination-in-chief. Maybe you forgot

3 about that, but anyway.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I apologise. Thank you

5 very much. So please if I can show the already marked

6 document of the record of the search of the apartment of

7 Mr. Mucic. Before we move to this record, I would only

8 like to confirm whether I recall correctly your answer

9 that the search of the MAS company was conducted after

10 the search of the apartment of Mr. Zdravko Mucic; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. Could you please go back to the record of the search of

14 the MAS company premises, please? Is it correct that at

15 the bottom of the first page of this record it states

16 that the search was completed in 15:15 hours?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. I would like, Mr. Moerbauer, to look at the Niederschrift

19 of the search of the apartment of Mr. Zdravko Mucic,

20 which, as you stated, was conducted between 14:30 and

21 15:15 hours, that means 45 minutes. Mr. Moerbauer, this

22 is the only record, as you said, which you started

23 writing in the apartment and completed on the premises

24 of the Police Department headquarters?

25 A. The record, the Niederschrift, of the objects seized,

Page 3700

1 that was done at the police headquarters, and that's

2 also where the signatures were applied.

3 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, I did understand correctly that the search

4 of the apartment of Mr. Mucic was also conducted on 18th

5 March 1996?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. Please can you tell me what date is stated on the top

8 corner of the first page of this record?

9 A. 19th March 1996.

10 Q. Would you please tell me at the bottom of the first page

11 what date is stated as the date when this search was

12 completed?

13 A. 19th March 1996.

14 Q. You were present at this search?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. And this record contains some incorrect data regarding

17 the time of the search and the day of the search; is

18 that correct?

19 A. On the record it's only the first date, 19th March 1996,

20 and that goes back to the initial error.

21 Q. And the search was completed on the following day, on

22 19th March. That is stated at the bottom of this

23 record?

24 A. It says that this record was drawn up on the 19th, and

25 after midnight Mucic went into police custody. So this

Page 3701

1 was in the early morning hours of the 19th.

2 Q. In other words, on 18th March -- at midnight on 18th

3 March you did not start putting together, drawing up the

4 record of the items seized in the apartment of

5 Mr. Zdravko Mucic; is that correct?

6 A. In the record the objects were indicated before

7 midnight. This took place at police headquarters.

8 Now confirmation of that record took place on 19th March

9 1996 and Mucic was brought into court custody and this

10 Niederschrift was not typed up in advance like the

11 others, and the date there was only added

12 subsequently. It wasn't typed in in advance.

13 Q. In other words, at the search of the apartment of

14 Mr. Zdravko Mucic in his case no record was made

15 simultaneously at the time of the search?

16 A. The Niederschrift, the handwritten information about the

17 officials involved, etc, the seized objects, were added

18 subsequently at police headquarters.

19 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, I do understand that certain things are

20 obvious to you. What we are trying to determine here

21 is the exact condition of the documents themselves.

22 Mr. Moerbauer, would you please take a look at the

23 Niederschrift, that is the record, drawn up at the spot

24 at the apartment where Mr. Zejnil Delalic stayed and

25 which was at Taubergasse 15/14. Please can I have this

Page 3702

1 document marked for identification, shown to the

2 Prosecution and after that passed on to the witness?

3 Thank you. (Handed to Prosecution). (Handed to

4 witness).

5 Mr. Moerbauer, the search of the apartment of

6 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, as you stated, was conducted by

7 Messrs Unger and Winkelman. You confirmed that the

8 beginning of the search of the apartment was roughly at

9 the same time when you entered the apartment of

10 Mr. Zdravko Mucic with Mr. Panzer and with the daughter of

11 Mr. Mucic, Sanda Mucic; is this correct?

12 A. Yes. In this context, yes.

13 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, before this Trial Chamber you also stated

14 that at the time, at the moment when you entered the

15 apartment of Mr. Delalic at the request of one of your

16 colleagues there was no other person present in the

17 apartment beside your colleagues; is that correct?

18 A. In Taubergasse 15/14 the first time I was there, whether

19 Harija Delalic was there I don't know exactly. Sanda

20 Mucic -- I did not notice Sanda Mucic there.

21 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, could you tell me that in this record it

22 has been noted that in the apartment of Mr. Zejnil

23 Delalic during this search Sanda Mucic was also present,

24 that is the daughter of the -- the 16 year old daughter

25 of Mr. Mucic, Mr. Pavo Mucic?

Page 3703

1 A. It is stated as such in the record.

2 Q. You also confirmed that the search of Mr. Mucic's

3 apartment lasted until 3.15 and that during that time

4 Sanda Mucic was interpreting everything needed -- that

5 was needed to be said to her father, Mr. Zdravko Mucic;

6 is that correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. You also said that this search was completed around

9 3.15?

10 A. That is correct, yes.

11 Q. You also stated that at the search in the apartment of

12 -- Mr. Zejnil Delalic's apartment was conducted on 18th

13 March and there were no additional searches following

14 that one; is that correct?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. Is it correct in the top corner of the first page of the

17 Niederschrift, and the address is Taubergasse 15/10, --

18 15/14 in the apartment of Mr. Zejnil Delalic the search

19 was conducted on 19th March 1996; is that correct?

20 A. The date was actually a mistake here.

21 Q. Is it correct that at the bottom of this page of the

22 Niederschrift on the search of the apartment where

23 Mr. Zejnil Delalic stayed, it is also indicated that this

24 search was completed on 19th March 1996 at 4.10?

25 A. The form was filled out showing this, yes.

Page 3704

1 Q. Is it correct that you stated that the form was drawn up

2 with the information that was possible to fill out and

3 they were typed up?

4 A. Yes, the information that was already known that didn't

5 change anything as far as the content of the record was

6 concerned, of the Niederschrift, this was recorded.

7 Q. And in handwriting the information was added that was

8 only found after the -- you were on the premises; is

9 that correct?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. Is it also true that it is in the ---- in handwriting it

12 is also stated that the search of the apartment of

13 Mr. Delalic was completed on 19th March 1996?

14 A. It is stated in handwriting that the record was

15 confirmed or was completed on 19th March 1996.

16 Q. In other words, the information about the times of the

17 search as written down in this document are not

18 accurate?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, I'm going to ask you to look at the

21 record, the Niederschrift, of the search of the

22 Inda-Bau. Please if I can also have it marked for

23 identification, then shown to the Prosecution and then

24 passed on to the witness. (Handed to Prosecution).

25 (Handed to witness).

Page 3705

1 Mr. Moerbauer, you were not present during this

2 search; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. Is it correct that you stated that on every record the

5 time of its completion, that is the sealing of the

6 apartment has to be indicated, and also the time when

7 this record was submitted to the person whose premises

8 are being searched, that is to the witness.

9 A. It's just a form and the times are given for the record.

10 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, is this the only document drawn up on

11 premises in the presence of the witness?

12 A. Apart from the record of Mucic, all records were carried

13 out on the spot.

14 Q. If you look at the top corner, does it state that it was

15 conducted on 19th March 1996, even though it was

16 actually conducted on a different day?

17 A. Yes, it occurred on 18th March.

18 Q. Is it correct that this record does not state at all

19 whether this search was completed, when it was completed

20 and whether this warrant was ever served on the persons

21 who were at the premises?

22 A. This record shows that completion of this record as

23 confirmation did occur without giving any time.

24 Q. Could you tell me where is the date and the time given

25 as to when this search was completed?

Page 3706

1 A. The record -- the completion of this record occurred but

2 the time and place was not filled in.

3 Q. You know that the search was completed but no other

4 person can glean from this record whether it was

5 completed; is that right?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. These records made on the spot are the basis from which

8 you then turn over these items to other persons who have

9 different duties in the police?

10 A. This record is something in addition. For every search

11 a report is also drawn up.

12 Q. This record, Mr. Moerbauer, is the basis for all your

13 future reports, and it is the only document which is

14 drawn up in the presence of the owner, that is the

15 witness, and which is left with the owner, that is the

16 witness; is that correct?

17 A. This document is confirmation for the person whose place

18 is being searched and is a record of whether items were

19 found and which items were seized.

20 Q. And the witness who confirms that you allegedly found

21 certain items on the premises?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, could you again look at the record of the

24 search of the Inda-Bau? On page 2 it is stated that 51

25 video cassettes were exempt, two recorders with

Page 3707

1 newspapers and eight registers with Mr. Delalic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is it correct that in no way the video cassettes or the

4 number or the documents or other characteristics of the

5 documents seized from the Inda-Bau were indicated?

6 A. (No translation).

7 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, judge. Your Honour, I think it may

8 be solved. We were not getting a translation in

9 English.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises for not

11 switching on his microphone.

12 A. The items which are listed on the record were given to

13 me in a box by my colleague Navrat at police

14 headquarters in Vienna, and this box, a note was

15 attached to it.

16 Q. Thank you. That satisfies me as an answer. You

17 already stated, and I would like you to confirm this,

18 that all these items were brought in a cardboard box to

19 the room number 331 in the police headquarters?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. You also stated, and I would like you to confirm it, if

22 you can, that this room is the room where you, Mr. Panzer

23 and Mr. Bycek work?

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. And this is the room to which Mr. Zdravko Mucic was

Page 3708

1 brought on that day; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. This is the room where four persons from the

4 International Tribunal also came on that day?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. On that day in that room your superior, Mr. -- and

7 I apologise; I forget his name -- he was also present

8 there. Mr. Gschwendt, Mr. Gschwendt?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. This is also the room where the interpreter for German

11 language was also present, the interpreter that was

12 needed for the interview with Mr. Zdravko Mucic?

13 A. The interpreter was also present.

14 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, is it correct that you stated during the

15 direct examination that on that day when you saw this

16 cardboard box you only glanced at the things that were

17 brought in?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. Is it correct that none of the items in the box were

20 marked either by certain markings or in a language that

21 you understand?

22 A. The only items in the box from the company Inda-Bau were

23 not marked or the individual binders just received an

24 initial for each binder.

25 Q. Is it correct that at that point in time you could not

Page 3709

1 even guess the number of items and the contents -- their

2 contents of the items in this box?

3 A. The number of videotapes was not checked. It was

4 assumed that this -- that what was in the record, in the

5 Niederschrift, was correct as far as the number of

6 videotapes was concerned.

7 Q. And there was no registration of the number of documents

8 at all?

9 A. There was not yet any enumeration of the documents at

10 this stage.

11 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Moerbauer, that in the same room,

12 number 331, other items found and seized from the

13 apartment of Mr. Mucic and the apartment of Mr. Delalic

14 and the Inda-Bau company were also brought?

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 Q. I repeat: is it correct if I state that you stated

17 before this Trial Chamber only four video cassettes

18 seized from Mr. Zdravko Mucic were marked and that the

19 marking of other cassettes was conducted in the

20 following days?

21 A. That is correct, yes.

22 Q. Is it correct, in Moerbauer, that the cardboard box

23 brought in by your colleagues from Inda-Bau was not

24 taped or sealed or registered by people who were at the

25 premises?

Page 3710

1 A. The box was open and it was not marked when it was given

2 to me.

3 Q. Do I recall correctly, Mr. Moerbauer, that you stated

4 before this Trial Chamber that the items in this box

5 were glanced at by the representatives of the

6 International Tribunal and by their interpreter?

7 A. The binders were looked through concerning the Inda-Bau

8 search and the video cassettes from the Mucic apartment

9 were also viewed.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I hope he understood your question.

11 Just repeat that question. Kindly repeat that

12 question.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr. Moerbauer, you just

14 very precisely stated that only the cassettes from

15 Mr. Mucic's apartment were viewed; is that correct?

16 A. The Mucic tapes were given to the people from the

17 Tribunal and the Inda-Bau tapes were not viewed by the

18 people from the Tribunal.


20 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Is it true,

21 Mr. Moerbauer, that you stated that the interpreter gave

22 you somewhere between 30 and 50 documents from the

23 cardboard box from Inda-Bau and requested that they be

24 copied?

25 A. The interpreter did not take the documents from the

Page 3711

1 box. The interpreter received the binders one by one.

2 She looked through the binders. Individual documents

3 were copied from the binders. The numbers of the

4 binders were taken and the binder was then placed back

5 into the box.

6 Q. That's all right. Let me ask you one thing.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Now, Ms. Residovic, let's go for a

8 break and come back at 4.30.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): That is also my view,

10 your Honours.

11 (4.00 pm)

12 (Short break)

13 (4.30 pm)

14 (Witness re-enters court)

15 (Interpreter re-enters court)

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly remind the witness he's still

17 on his oath.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Moerbauer, may I remind you that you are

19 still under oath?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, you can continue.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

23 Honours. Before I continue with the cross-examination

24 of the witness, I should like to ask you to hear a

25 comment, namely I do not speak German, and I rely on the

Page 3712

1 interpretation I receive from our interpreters. My

2 client, Mr. Zejnil Delalic, who is a court translator for

3 German, has informed me that the translations of

4 Mr. Moerbauer's statements made up to the break by the

5 interpreter were not correct, that they do not reflect

6 everything the witness says, so that relying on this

7 opinion of his, I should like to ask you if you could

8 request from the translation service that the

9 interpretation of the testimony of this witness should

10 be done by the interpreter who was working this

11 morning.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think as far as we know it's the

13 same interpreter who has been here since this morning.

14 You mean the interpreter in the booth?

15 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): In the booth, yes. All

16 I can do is make a request. I do not know what the

17 possibilities are for providing another interpreter.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If he makes an observation of error,

19 then something has to be done to correct the continuance

20 of any errors. I suppose it might be some technical

21 difficulties. If not, I do not see why the same

22 interpreter could not have interpreted to everyone

23 else.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Also having examined the

25 transcript --

Page 3713

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us see what we can do before you

2 compound the error.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Maybe a solution that the interpreter which

4 is sitting next to Mr. Moerbauer, if she notices that

5 there's a difference in the translation, if she could

6 notice that and indicate that to the witness.

7 JUDGE JAN: That will be a double check.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: A cross-check.

9 JUDGE JAN: That will be a double check.

10 THE INTERPRETER: And then ask the witness to repeat or

11 what?

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If you observe that there is any

13 discrepancy in the interpretation, you can then call the

14 attention.

15 JUDGE JAN: We will have a double check now. Okay?

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. I suppose this

17 might assist. I know it might not be foolproof, but it

18 might improve it. You can now continue. Let's try

19 this out.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

21 Honours. I know that it is difficult to interpret into

22 four languages, and I should like to thank you for

23 taking steps immediately. I, too, have looked through

24 the transcript and I would like to ask Mr. Moerbauer to

25 allow me to repeat a question, because I think that the

Page 3714

1 answer we see in the transcript doesn't quite faithfully

2 reflect the statement of the witness, probably because

3 of the already mentioned difficulties.

4 Mr. Moerbauer, would you please look once again at

5 the court warrant dated 15th March 1996 and issued by

6 the court for the search of six apartments, six

7 different addresses? Please, Mr. Moerbauer, can you

8 confirm that in this court warrant at the bottom of the

9 first page it is stated that there is an obligation for

10 this court warrant to be handed to the person it is

11 intended for immediately or within 24 hours at the

12 latest?

13 A. Yes, I can see that here in the warrant.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Thank you. Allow me to continue

15 the cross-examination where we broke off before the

16 break. Mr. Moerbauer, as you stated before this court,

17 you took 30-50 documents for the purpose of photocopying

18 them; is that correct?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. The instructions for photocopying were given to you by

21 your superior, Mr. Gschwendt?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. These documents were taken by you to another part of the

24 building, where you photocopied them and made two

25 copies; is that true?

Page 3715

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. When taking those 30-50 documents, you did not make any

3 official inventory of those papers which you took with

4 you to copy; is that correct?

5 A. I took the respective binders with me and two copies of

6 the documents were made by myself.

7 Q. My question was whether you made a precise list of those

8 documents before copying them?

9 A. Before the copying each binder only -- only each binder

10 received a number, and the documents in the binders were

11 not numbered at this point in time.

12 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Moerbauer, that yesterday testifying

13 before this court you said that you took out the

14 documents from the cardboard box or, rather, the

15 binders, that you took them to be photocopied, and then

16 you returned them, placing the originals back into the

17 binders, and the copies on the -- placing the copies on

18 the box where the binders used to be? Is that what you

19 stated yesterday?

20 A. The copies -- the copies made, the second copies for the

21 police, were between the binders.

22 Q. Is it correct that yesterday you did not say that you

23 took the binders with you?

24 A. I took the individual binders with me for copying,

25 binder by binder.

Page 3716

1 Q. At the time you were copying them, you did not have the

2 permission of the investigating judge to carry out such

3 operations with the documents?

4 A. I was -- Mr. Gschwendt asked me to copy these documents,

5 and as far as I knew, this was done with the agreement

6 of the investigating magistrate.

7 Q. You, Mr. Moerbauer, never saw a document containing the

8 approval of the magistrate -- judge, investigating

9 judge, for such an operation?

10 A. There was no document, but notes were made regarding

11 this. This was on 18th or maybe at the latest on

12 20th. Mr. Bycek consulted the judge at the time and

13 this was confirmed by the judge, and a note on the

14 record was made.

15 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, is it true that Mr. Panzer on that day

16 placed indications on the tapes of Mr. Mucic?

17 A. The seized videotapes of Mr. Mucic were labelled by

18 Mr. Panzer, my colleague.

19 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, you said that the other videotapes were

20 labelled the following days. Is it correct that these

21 videotapes were also labelled by your colleague,

22 Mr. Panzer?

23 A. It is correct.

24 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Moerbauer, that Mr. Panzer was with you

25 during the search in Taubergasse number 15?

Page 3717

1 A. My colleague Panzer was present at the search at

2 Taubergasse 15, Door 10, yes, that is correct.

3 Q. Is it correct that Mr. Panzer, your colleague, did not

4 attend the search in the premises of Inda-Bau on that

5 day?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. And it is also correct that the following days he

8 labelled all the videotapes which were in the Inda-Bau

9 cardboard box?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Moerbauer, that the search of the

12 premises and the seizure of objects was carried out on a

13 Monday, on 18th March?

14 A. Yes, that is correct.

15 Q. Is it correct that you stated that you started reviewing

16 the documents on Friday, 22nd March, together with an

17 interpreter?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. Is it correct that up to that day not a single document

20 had any particular label on it?

21 A. The only documents in the binders -- the individual

22 documents in the binders were not individually numbered

23 at this point in time.

24 Q. Is it correct that you said that you examined the

25 documents in the period from March 22nd until April 2nd,

Page 3718

1 together with an interpreter, and that when you had

2 discovered what they contained, you gave them certain

3 labels?

4 A. Every document -- the interpreter received each document

5 from the different binders, and when the interpreter

6 received the document, I gave it a number.

7 Q. Therefore, you will agree with me that since the

8 translation lasted until 2nd April, the last group of

9 documents that you gave to the interpreter were numbered

10 on 2nd April?

11 A. That is correct, yes.

12 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, is it correct that in some reports, the

13 Bericht, on information of seized documents you noted

14 certain errors recording the number of seized

15 videotapes?

16 A. Concerning the number of seized videotapes, the first

17 note was items seized from Taubergasse 15, Door 14.

18 The first error was discovered by a colleague and was

19 corrected and the seized videotapes from Koppstrasse,

20 Door number 14, this was discovered later, at a later

21 stage, and was noted by me in the report.

22 Q. I should like to ask you, Mr. Moerbauer, if you could

23 look again at the report on search of the apartment in

24 Taubergasse 15, the apartment of Mr. Zejnil Delalic and

25 to look at the same time at this report, this Bericht,

Page 3719

1 which I would like to be marked, shown to the Prosecutor

2 and given to you for identification. Mr. Moerbauer, the

3 record on the search of Mr. Delalic's apartment, that is

4 the Niederschrift, does it say that 30 videotapes were

5 seized in the apartment?

6 A. Yes, that is correct.

7 Q. Does your record of 22nd April 1996 say that in

8 Mr. Delalic's apartment 28 videotapes were found?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. Can you tell us, Mr. Moerbauer, which policeman noticed

11 the error in the number of videotapes in Mr. Delalic's

12 apartment?

13 A. I can't say. I only know on the same day there was a

14 note on the record from Gruth (sic), or one of the

15 colleagues who had seized these videotapes, and this

16 note on the record should be in the court records.

17 Q. Can you tell me, Mr. Moerbauer, the name of the

18 videotapes which went missing between Mr. Delalic's

19 apartment and your police station?

20 THE INTERPRETER: The name of the video cassettes?

21 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes.

22 A. The name of the video cassettes, they were 28 -- they

23 were actually 28 video cassettes, and on the record 30

24 was noted. I can't give you the names of the 28

25 videotapes.

Page 3720

1 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, I'm not interested in the names of the 28,

2 but in the names of the two videotapes. Can you tell

3 me the names of the two videotapes that were numbered in

4 the Niederschrift, that were listed in the

5 Niederschrift, but which you did not receive?

6 A. Only 28 videotapes were handed over. In the record it

7 was listed as -- they were given as 30 videotapes, and

8 according to the colleagues this was a mistake and this

9 was noted on the record on the same day. There were

10 actually only 28 videotapes that I received, and this

11 mistake was also included in the report.

12 Q. Can you tell me the names of your colleagues who told

13 you that this was merely an error?

14 A. The note was either made by my colleague Unger or by my

15 colleague Winter -- Winkelmann -- Unger or Winkelmann.

16 I'm not sure. I don't know if both signed this note,

17 but this should be in the court files.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let me find out what might have

19 happened. Did you put any identification marks on the

20 28th you recovered?

21 A. As far as these videotapes go, the labelling was only

22 put on in the following days. This is the gym bag that

23 I took from Delalic's apartment and took to the police

24 headquarters. Colleagues also came in there, wrote

25 their report. I don't know if it was subsequently that

Page 3721

1 they saw or how much subsequently they saw there was a

2 mistake, but that same day they did enter that

3 correction into the record.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Now if it was on the 28 you had an

5 identifying by your own mark and then 30 were

6 subsequently found, the two excess ones would not have

7 those marks?

8 A. Well, should there have been 30 videotapes, of course,

9 they would not have been labelled.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. If there are 30 and then you had

11 marks on all the 30, then you might be wrong in saying

12 there are 28. You see, if all of them had the marks

13 you gave them on the date you took them, then the

14 question of error might not have been made out.

15 A. The various videos were viewed and they were referenced

16 and then mentioned in the reports, and there were the

17 analysis reports about the videos, and in those analysis

18 reports, as far as I know, there were, in fact, only 28

19 videos, which were seized in that apartment, in the

20 Taubergasse 15.


22 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): In other words, Mr.

23 Moerbauer, your colleagues Unger and Winkelman did not

24 count correct and did not write down correct the items

25 seized during the search in Taubergasse 15, that is in

Page 3722

1 the apartment of Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

2 A. That's possible. It's also possible that there may

3 have been an empty videotape case in among that number.

4 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, would you look again at the record, that

5 is the Niederschrift, from the search of the Inda-Bau

6 company, and please if at the same time I would like the

7 Bericht to be shown to you from April 1996 after it has

8 been marked and after it has been looked at by the

9 Prosecution. I apologise. There are some translation

10 markings in my handwriting on these documents. (Handed

11 to Prosecution). (Handed to witness).

12 Mr. Moerbauer, is it correct in this Niederschrift,

13 which was drawn up on the search in the Inda-Bau

14 company, it was stated that 51 video cassettes were

15 seized without any further notification as to the

16 videotapes?

17 A. The 51 videotapes were not labelled in the course of the

18 search. They were brought to the Vienna police

19 headquarters in a box and Navrat handed them to me.

20 Q. Thank you. These video cassettes were marked in the

21 following days by your colleague Panzer; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes, that is correct.

24 Q. In your report, the Bericht of 22nd April 1996, you

25 noted that on the Inda-Bau premises 54 video cassettes

Page 3723

1 were discovered; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, that is correct. Panzer ascertained that.

3 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, is it correct that at the time when this

4 error was discovered no witness of the witnesses who

5 were present during the search at the Inda-Bau premises

6 was present on that occasion?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. Is it also correct that on the occasion of the taking

9 out of items -- the unmarked items from either the gym

10 bag or the cardboard box neither Mr. Delalic or his

11 official representatives were present, or any witness

12 who in the report was marked as being present at that

13 occasion?

14 A. Yes, that is correct.

15 Q. Is it also correct that you did not receive from your

16 colleagues any items on which you would have signed

17 off? You simply received a gym bag on the first

18 occasion and an open cardboard box with items on the

19 second?

20 A. That is correct, yes.

21 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, this may be a bit easier because this is

22 regarding a larger number of video cassettes, in other

23 words, the cassettes were not lost on their way. Can

24 you please, Mr. Moerbauer, list exactly the video

25 cassettes that were not registered on the premises of

Page 3724

1 the Inda-Bau and were later described in your report; in

2 other words, the exact names of the video cassettes

3 which emerged was the difference between the state of

4 affairs on the premises and the one that you described

5 in your report of April 22nd?

6 A. The videotapes from the Inda-Bau company, there were

7 always 54 of them. There were apparently 54 of them.

8 They were only counted later on when they were marked.

9 Now with regard to a reference to them and giving them a

10 name, that only happened later in the course of

11 processing.

12 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, I'm looking at the second page of the

13 Niederschrift from the Inda-Bau and to me it is obvious

14 that it states there "51 cassettes". What I'm

15 interested in is what three cassettes did you find later

16 and what are the names of these cassettes? Can you tell

17 me that?

18 A. In the box there were apparently always those 54

19 videotapes, but after handover they weren't counted.

20 It was when we labelled them consecutively that we

21 realised that there were 54 and not 51. Now they were

22 not given a name at once. It was only in the course of

23 the one and a half to two weeks of analysis that the

24 contents of the videotapes was indicated in a report

25 along with the contents -- along with the references --

Page 3725

1 excuse me.

2 Q. In other words, if this is correct, Mr. Moerbauer, your

3 colleague who conducted the search at the Inda-Bau as

4 well as its markings did his job conscientiously and

5 properly; is that correct?

6 THE INTERPRETER: I did not quite get it. Was it "did" or

7 "didn't conscientiously"?

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Could you repeat it?

9 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr. Moerbauer, if what

10 you say is correct that in the cardboard box there were

11 always 54 video cassettes, are you thereby confirming

12 that your colleagues who were on the premises

13 incorrectly noted things down and therefore discharged

14 their jobs without proper diligence?

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Do you want him to comment on that?

16 I'm not sure he's in a very good position to say

17 anything about it.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): The witness replied that

19 no comment is necessary. We have 51 cassettes and then

20 54. Three video cassettes appeared from somewhere. I

21 don't know where they appeared from, your Honours.

22 Maybe the witness can help us in that.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: As time goes on, perhaps a proper

24 inference might be drawn. You need not say it.

25 JUDGE JAN: How can he comment on any of it? The error is

Page 3726

1 apparent. It seems somewhat a little strange that the

2 two officers should be miscounting, one making 30

3 cassettes and they turn out to be 28, and one counting

4 them as 51 and they turn out to be 54. So we can draw

5 our own conclusions. You don't have to ask him and

6 embarrass him.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes, your Honours. I'm

8 only doing my cross-examination for now. Mr. Moerbauer,

9 you stated before this Trial Chamber that you yourself

10 reviewed about 60 cassettes; is that correct?

11 A. Watched videos, yes, watched 60 videos, that's right.

12 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Moerbauer, that in none of these 60

13 video cassettes you did not find -- you found any

14 cassettes that you were given a warrant by this Tribunal

15 and which refer to the torture of prisoners?

16 JUDGE JAN: The report itself is very clear.

17 A. I did not see any contents of that nature, but when it

18 comes to investigations, we take both account of what is

19 in the favour of the prosecution and what is in the

20 favour of the defence.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr. Moerbauer, thank you

22 for your care and for defending of the process, but did

23 you note precisely that among the video cassettes that

24 you reviewed there were no video cassettes that referred

25 to the torture of prisoners, and that this was also part

Page 3727

1 of the report that you drew up on April 22nd, 1996?

2 A. Now in the videotapes there was footage of a camp or

3 camps and apparently prisoners were involved and they

4 were visible on the videos, and one person, a prisoner

5 no doubt, had to do push-ups.

6 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, my question is about the video cassettes

7 taken from Mr. Delalic's apartment and from the Inda-Bau.

8 A. I was referring to all videos.

9 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, if in your report of 22nd April 1996 you

10 had written down that there were no such video

11 cassettes, that is in the cassettes from the apartment

12 of Mr. Zejnil Delalic and the Inda-Bau, then this is

13 correct, what you wrote in this report?

14 A. Yes, that is correct.

15 Q. Mr. Moerbauer, the list of items that did not contain

16 torture of prisoners and war crimes you did not submit

17 to the State Prosecutor of Austria?

18 A. The analysis report as well as the videotapes were

19 transferred to the Vienna District Court.

20 Q. You yourself numbered the items, didn't you?

21 A. With regard to the numbering of the videotapes, that was

22 done but my colleague, Panzer, but when it came to

23 putting this together in the report, that's something I

24 did.

25 Q. I'm referring to the documents, to the papers. You did

Page 3728

1 it yourself; is that correct?

2 A. The reference of the written documents was -- the

3 referencing of those documents was done by me and only

4 by me.

5 Q. At no time, Mr. Moerbauer, was there an official

6 inventory of the items, including several people?

7 A. The documents after the 2nd April -- all the documents

8 which had been seized and those that were relevant to

9 the case were referenced and subsequently a summary

10 report was drawn up about the contents of the various

11 documents, but not all documents were translated and

12 mentioned, because some documents were illegible and

13 some documents were copies of others which were in a

14 different file, and those kind of documents and some of

15 the ID cards or identification papers, what have you, we

16 didn't reference those and translate those.

17 Q. Thank you for your explanation, but that was not the

18 gist of my question. My question was: was at any time

19 before the referencing of items -- was there ever an

20 official referencing either of the video cassettes,

21 documents or other items?

22 A. Official listing as regards the individual documents,

23 there was no such official listing. With regard to the

24 videotapes and the referencing, that had been done, but

25 the documents had not been listed individually at that

Page 3729

1 point in time.

2 Q. Two more questions for today and then we can break.

3 Please, at no time was the identification of any items

4 done in the presence of Mr. Zejnil Delalic; is that

5 correct?

6 JUDGE JAN: But he was not in Austria at that time, so how

7 could that be done? You don't expect them to do

8 something which is impossible.

9 A. The person concerned, as far as the search warrant goes,

10 was in each and every instance Zdravko Mucic. The

11 search warrants had been issued in connection with

12 Zdravko Mucic.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I'm only asking in

14 regard of Mr. Delalic. Mr. Delalic was not present

15 during any identification of items which were conducted

16 subsequently?

17 A. Delalic was not present.

18 Q. His counsel was not present either, nor was he informed

19 of this?

20 JUDGE JAN: Did he have a counsel at that stage?

21 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes.

22 JUDGE JAN: In Vienna?

23 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I was in Sarajevo, in

24 Munich and here and he did have a counsel in Germany.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We are talking about his performance

Page 3730

1 in Austria.

2 JUDGE JAN: In Vienna.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, in Vienna, not in Sarajevo or in

4 Germany.

5 JUDGE JAN: But were you his counsel in March 1992.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): As of April 1st, and the

7 German counsel as of March 19th, and they were all in a

8 position to have been informed and a foreigner according

9 to the law, to the local laws, has the right to choose a

10 counsel from the country of his origin.

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He's a very accomplished man, the

12 court interpreter. He knew what to do. I think,

13 Ms. Residovic, you are losing control now. We'll

14 reassemble tomorrow morning and you continue with your

15 cross-examination.

16 (5.35 pm)

17 (Court adjourned until 10.00 tomorrow morning)

18 --ooOoo--