Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4336

1 Monday, 7th July 1997

2 (10.00 am)

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

4 It is nice to be back after a long time off. I hope

5 both counsel have received the scheduling order for the

6 witnesses appearing on the 28th and 29th week. I think

7 you will have had the scheduling order by now, because

8 we have received them from the prosecution. We are

9 sitting all days of the week from Monday, through

10 Thursday and Friday, all five days a week. We will be

11 sitting for the period. Can we have the witness now?

12 MR. TURONE: Good morning, your Honour. Our next witness,

13 your Honour, was supposed to be a protected witness to

14 be identified as Witness C for the public and the

15 media. However, he is now willing to testify in open

16 court without any protective measures. So the

17 prosecution withdraws the request for protection. We

18 will call him as Mr. Vaso Dordic as our next witness.

19 He was one of the persons from the videotape from

20 Belgrade TV shown by the defence on Wednesday, 11th

21 June.

22 Before calling this witness into the court, may I

23 request your Honours to allow the prosecution -- the

24 prosecution believes that a particular issue has to be

25 brought to the attention of the Trial Chamber. It will

Page 4337

1 take a short time, but may I ask your Honours to allow

2 me to do this before the witness comes and in private

3 session, please, because of the confidentiality of the

4 issue? Thank you.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can do that. Let us go into

6 private session for the time being for that purpose.

7 MR. TURONE: Is it already private session?

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No. Inform them.

9 (In private session)

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Page 4341

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19 (In open session)

20 (Witness enters court)

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Swear the witness.

22 MR. VASO DORDIC (sworn)

23 Examined by MR. TURONE

24 MR. TURONE: May I proceed, your Honours?

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can do.

Page 4342

1 MR. TURONE: Sir, would you please state your full name?

2 A. My name is Vaso Dordic.

3 Q. Mr. Dordic, you just read out a declaration about saying

4 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

5 Do you understand the meaning of that declaration and do

6 you understand what telling the truth means?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Mr. Dordic, what is your date of birth?

9 A. I was born on 9th October 1966.

10 Q. And what is your ethnic group?

11 A. I am a Serb.

12 Q. And where were you born?

13 A. Born in Konjic.

14 Q. Mr. Dordic, what education did you receive? I mean, what

15 kind of schools did you attend?

16 A. I completed elementary school and too the high school

17 and then later the fire-fighting course.

18 Q. How many years did you attend elementary school?

19 A. The elementary school, I went to elementary school for

20 eight years.

21 Q. What kind of school did you attend after elementary

22 school exactly?

23 A. I went to -- it was a railroad school called Vaso Miskin

24 Crni in Sarajevo.

25 Q. For how many years?

Page 4343

1 A. Two years.

2 Q. What subjects did you study in this technical vocational

3 school?

4 A. I had the subject of fire-fighting. That was the main

5 subject in this technical school.

6 Q. What did you do after these years in technical school?

7 A. I did not have a job right away, so I worked as a

8 construction worker for six months, and then later I

9 moved to another company and I worked on painting

10 bridges. After that I got a job and I went to work in

11 Rilovats in the railroad yards, and I was there a

12 fireman.

13 Q. Did you serve in the army?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. In which capacity did you serve in the army?

16 A. I went to the army on 15th March 19th 1988 to

17 Sviliniz. I was there 2 months and 22 days. Then

18 I was transferred to Belgrade to the bakery. I served

19 as a baker in Belgrade.

20 Q. Mr. Dordic, how did it happen that you were hired as a

21 fireman?

22 A. My late father worked in Sarajevo, and so it was through

23 him that I found a job. It was sort of like a

24 privilege.

25 Q. Where did you work as a fireman?

Page 4344

1 A. I worked in Rilovats in the technical station.

2 Q. How long did you work there?

3 A. I worked there two years, until the war broke out in

4 1992.

5 Q. Can you say: what did you normally do during your

6 working day while you were a fireman?

7 A. During a regular working day I worked in the office.

8 I had a shift of five people and I was the shift

9 commander, and sometimes I went out in the field. I

10 would check on the trains that were arriving in that

11 station.

12 Q. All right, Mr. Dordic. Where did you live at the

13 time -- in May 1992?

14 A. In May 1992 I lived in the village of Zukici near

15 Bradina, about three and a half kms out of Konjic,

16 between Konjic and Bradina.

17 Q. With whom did you live?

18 A. With my father, my mother and my brother.

19 Q. Can you say the name of your brother?

20 A. My brother's name is Veseljko Dordic.

21 Q. Was there a time when Bradina was affected by the armed

22 conflict and then your village, Zukici, was affected by

23 the armed conflict in 1992?

24 A. Yes, in May.

25 Q. Do you remember approximately the day when this

Page 4345

1 happened?

2 A. The first attack on Bradina was conducted on 12th May.

3 Later on 22nd May there was another one, and then

4 Bradina fell.

5 Q. Was there a time when you were arrested?

6 A. No. At that time I was at home throughout this

7 period. I was working in the field and I never went

8 away until the month of July.

9 Q. So there was a time when you were arrested in July?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you say when were you arrested in July?

12 A. It was 12th July, St Peter's Day.

13 Q. Can you briefly explain the circumstances of your

14 arrest?

15 A. I was arrested in such a way that the neighbours came,

16 knocked on the door, and they told myself, my brother

17 and my late parents to come out, and at that time Dordic

18 Gojka, Borka, Radojka and Savo and Sofija and Marija

19 Dordic were all arrested at the same time, and this was

20 all done by our neighbours: Redzo Ljevo, Redzo Balic,

21 Hajrudin Rizvanovic, Elvedin and Mohammed Niksic. One

22 of them had a trucking company.

23 Q. Did these people arresting you belong to any military

24 unit, as far as you know?

25 A. At that time they were all members of the TO.

Page 4346

1 Q. Did they wear uniform?

2 A. Some did; some did not.

3 Q. And could you see any insignia on the uniforms of the

4 ones who wore uniforms?

5 A. They had insignia on the arms, and they were the TO

6 insignia.

7 Q. Mr. Dordic, were you told why you were being arrested?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you have any weapon at the time of your arrest?

10 A. I did not own any weapons. I was not a member of any

11 such party.

12 Q. Did you in any way take part in the defence of your

13 village?

14 A. No. I was at home all the time. I was working with my

15 neighbours. I was working in the field and I was

16 trying to survive.

17 Q. Do you remember approximately at what time of the day

18 you were arrested on July 12th?

19 A. Yes. I only know that it was St Peter's Day, that it

20 was 12th July.

21 Q. So what happened to you after you were arrested? Where

22 were you brought?

23 A. I was first taken to the motel in Konjic and then from

24 there I was then transferred to Celebici.

25 Q. With which vehicle were you transferred to Celebici?

Page 4347

1 A. The vehicle was a Tam. Mohammed Niksic took me first

2 to the motel and then from the motel to Celebici in a

3 truck.

4 Q. Do you remember approximately at what time did you

5 arrive at Celebici?

6 A. We left home around 12.00 and so I arrived in Celebici

7 around 2.00.

8 Q. You mean 2.00 in the night, 2.00 am or 2.00 pm?

9 A. Yes, 2.00 am.

10 Q. So you arrived at Celebici in the night between 12th and

11 13th July; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How many prisoners were together with you in the vehicle

14 which transported you to Celebici?

15 A. It was all of us from Zukici that were first -- that had

16 first been brought to the motel. All of us then went

17 to Celebici.

18 Q. Mr. Dordic, would you now tell us in detail what happened

19 to you right after your arrival at Celebici?

20 A. As soon as we got to Celebici they separated women and

21 children, and myself, my brother and my late father were

22 all taken to Number 6, to the hangar, that same night.

23 Q. Were there other prisoners inside Hangar 6 when you

24 first arrived there?

25 A. Yes. There was a lot of people there. When the day

Page 4348

1 came, I saw that there were many people there.

2 Q. Can you say very approximately how many?

3 A. About 200, maybe even more.

4 Q. Can you say where exactly inside the hangar did you

5 sleep the first night?

6 A. That first night I was taken to Number 6 and I was put

7 near the door, the entrance to the hangar. It was

8 first me, then my brother and then my late father.

9 Q. So you were close to one another inside the hangar?

10 A. Yes, one next to the other inside the hangar.

11 Q. And close to the door?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Then what happened the very next morning?

14 A. Next morning three people came and said: "Come on out,

15 you who came out last night." So my father, myself and

16 my brother Veseljko came out, and outside -- and the

17 person who -- the person who --

18 Q. Speak slowly, please.

19 A. The person who introduced himself to my late father said

20 that his name was Zdravko Mucic and that he was the camp

21 commander. That morning there were three persons there

22 who introduced themselves. He said that he was the

23 camp commander and said that his name was Pavo Mucic.

24 Q. Do you know the name of the one -- of these three

25 people, the one who asked: "Who are the new ones who

Page 4349

1 came yesterday night?"

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who was it?

4 A. That was Pavo Mucic who asked the question: "Who are the

5 new ones who arrived last night from Zukici?"

6 Q. When and how did you get to know his name?

7 A. I saw Pavo Mucic the first time and I found out his name

8 when he introduced himself to us, to myself, to my

9 brother Veseljko and my late father Jelenko.

10 Q. How did you know that his name was Mucic? Did he

11 introduce himself with his name?

12 A. He introduced himself and he said his own name. He

13 said that he was Pavo Mucic.

14 Q. All right. Do you know the names of the other two

15 people who were with him in this occasion?

16 A. I later met Hazim Delic and Landzo Zenga. As I spent

17 time in the prison, I learned who they were later on.

18 Q. So my question is: who are the other two people who

19 were with Mr. Mucic the first morning?

20 A. That first morning there was Landzo Zenga and Hazim

21 Delic.

22 Q. All right. What did Mr. Mucic tell your father exactly?

23 A. Mucic said to my father that he was letting him go home

24 and that the two of us had to stay to make a statement

25 and that we would follow my late father soon, that we

Page 4350

1 would be released. He said that we had to stay for a

2 couple of days to make a statement, and then he would

3 let us go.

4 Q. Did Mr. Delic say something on this occasion?

5 A. On that occasion Delic kept silent.

6 Q. All right. Mr. Dordic, what happened to you and your

7 brother that morning right after the release of your

8 father?

9 A. That morning we were taken back to Number 6. My father

10 was released. We had to go back to Hangar Number 6,

11 and at that moment a guard walked in, whom I didn't

12 know, and he took me and my brother out and he beat us,

13 first my father on the side of Number 6, and he hit my

14 brother with a knife here. (Indicating). He split his

15 eyebrows. Later on I learned while I was in prison

16 that the man in question was Landzo Zenga. I learned

17 his name from the other inmates. They called each

18 other by name.

19 Q. What did exactly Zenga do to you and your brother?

20 A. Zenga forced me to do push-ups. Then he lit a fuse on

21 me. Then he forced us to --

22 Q. I am speaking about this first morning, this first

23 morning right after the release of your father.

24 A. Yes. He beat us on that occasion that very first

25 morning.

Page 4351

1 Q. With what did Zenga beat you?

2 A. He beat us with his feet, that is his boots, and his

3 rifle butt.

4 Q. Was that the only time that you were beaten by Zenga, by

5 Mr. Landzo?

6 A. No. It was not. It was not the only time. He beat

7 us later again.

8 Q. Can you say approximately how many times did Mr. Landzo

9 beat you?

10 A. Landzo beat me every day while I was in Number 6.

11 Q. Can you say -- did Mr. Landzo say anything while beating

12 you in all these occasions?

13 A. He didn't say anything. He would just come into the

14 hangar, take me out, and he'd shout: "Come out. Come

15 outside." Then he would begin to beat me.

16 Q. All right. So can you describe the physical

17 characteristics of Building Number 6, Hangar 6?

18 A. The building of Hangar Number 6 was as follows. It was

19 steel sheets outside and inside you could see the steel

20 structures. The beams were in steel.

21 Q. How big was that?

22 A. It was about 27, 28 metres long.

23 Q. Did you always maintain the same position inside Hangar

24 6, the one near the door?

25 A. I was always in the same position, right next to the

Page 4352

1 door.

2 Q. And did your brother also maintain the same position

3 near the door?

4 A. We were non-stop together. We never separated. We

5 lay next to the floor.

6 Q. Sir, approximately how long did you stay in Hangar 6?

7 A. I stayed in Hangar Number 6 for four months and then

8 I was transferred to the sports hall in Musala.

9 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us how were the conditions of

10 life in Hangar 6, food, drinking water, sleeping

11 facilities, toilet facilities?

12 A. The conditions in Number 6 were terrible. We received

13 food once a day, sometimes twice, and water only once a

14 day. We slept on the concrete floor in Number 6.

15 Q. Can you say how were the toilet facilities, please?

16 A. We had a WC outside and at night there was a bucket

17 right next to the door, which was used during the night

18 for urination. Then in the morning we had to carry it

19 out.

20 Q. Were you allowed to go outside during the day to urinate

21 outside the hangar?

22 A. Some were allowed; some were not.

23 Q. Was there any period of time during which you did not

24 have any food for the whole day?

25 A. There were periods when we had no food for two days in a

Page 4353

1 row.

2 Q. What about drinking water? Was the supply of drinking

3 water stable?

4 A. We didn't have drinking water regularly. We had small

5 quantities, very small quantities.

6 Q. Mr. Dordic, were you ever interrogated during your stay

7 in Celebici?

8 A. During my stay in Celebici I was interrogated only once.

9 Q. Can you say when did that happen?

10 A. I was interrogated after five or ten days.

11 Q. Can you say where in the camp did that happen?

12 A. It was at the command building, near the entrance, at

13 the very entrance to the camp.

14 Q. Was anybody else interrogated in the same occasion as

15 you?

16 A. On that day only my father, Veseljko Dordic, was taken

17 for interrogation with me, just the two of us.

18 Q. I heard "father"?

19 A. My brother. I'm sorry.

20 Q. Who called you out of the hangar? Who called you and

21 your brother out of the hangar and brought you to the

22 command building on this occasion?

23 A. On that occasion the guard Zenga took us down to the

24 command building to make a statement.

25 Q. Who was interrogated first, you or your brother?

Page 4354

1 A. I was taken in first and my brother stayed outside in

2 front of the building. He was standing in the open air

3 facing the dispensary and with his back turned to the

4 command building. I was the first to be

5 interrogated. I was the first to give a statement.

6 Q. Can you say in which room of the command building were

7 you interrogated?

8 A. In a room facing the dispensary. The windows were

9 facing the dispensary.

10 Q. By whom were you interrogated?

11 A. Pavo Mucic was there and Hazim Delic and Ismeta was

12 typing.

13 Q. Were you sitting at a table during the interrogation?

14 A. I was sitting next to a table and I was interrogated by

15 Hazim Delic. He was speaking and I kept quiet and

16 Ismeta was typing.

17 Q. Could you see the window of the room during the time of

18 your interrogation? I mean, was the window in front of

19 you? Could you see it?

20 A. The window was in front of me. The window was facing

21 another building, which was called the dispensary.

22 Q. What else could you see through the window, if anything?

23 A. I could see Landzo Zenga beating my brother using his

24 rifle on his body while I was making the statement.

25 Q. How were you treated during the interrogation?

Page 4355

1 A. I was treated in such a way that I was sitting on a

2 chair next to the table and Hazim Delic took out his

3 pistol and pointed it against my forehead and hit me

4 with it, telling me to confess whatever he was saying,

5 and Ismeta was typing all the time.

6 Q. Was Delic sitting at the table during the interrogation?

7 A. No.

8 Q. What was his position inside the room then?

9 A. He was next to me. He was standing next to me.

10 Q. Did he simply hold the pistol against you? What did he

11 say else?

12 A. He wasn't saying anything. He was just pointing the

13 pistol against me, and he was telling me to confess.

14 He hit me on the head. He also slapped me. My nose

15 started bleeding.

16 Q. Mr. Dordic, was Mr. Mucic sitting at the table during this

17 interrogation?

18 A. Pavo Mucic throughout my interrogation was in the office

19 and he was watching. Later on he went out and he

20 didn't come back.

21 Q. I mean, was he sitting at the table during the

22 interrogation?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you say what was his position on that chair inside

25 the room with respect to the window?

Page 4356

1 A. In relation to the window he was sitting on the side.

2 He was looking through the window. He was looking

3 outside.

4 Q. Did Mucic say anything during the interrogation?

5 A. No, he didn't say anything.

6 Q. Were you accused of anything specific during the

7 interrogation?

8 A. During the interrogation, yes, they accused me.

9 Q. Of what?

10 A. Because on 11th July the policemen were killed in Duboki

11 Potok between Repovci and Bradina. They claimed I was

12 the one who had killed them and that is apparently why

13 I was taken to prison. Hazim Delic was forcing me to

14 confess to this, that I had done it.

15 Q. Did you have to sign any piece of paper, any record,

16 after this interrogation?

17 A. Yes, I signed the statement. I wanted to sign in Latin

18 script and he said: "No. You are a Cetnik. You have

19 to sign in Cyrillic alphabet." I had to sign that

20 statement in Cyrillic.

21 Q. Mr. Dordic, was that a long interrogation?

22 A. Ten minutes.

23 Q. What happened right after your interrogation was

24 finished?

25 A. After that I was taken out and my brother was brought

Page 4357

1 in, Veseljko Dordic.

2 Q. Did you personally see Veseljko entering the room for

3 his own interrogation?

4 A. Yes, because we met at the door, the door leading into

5 the room where I was, and then he was interrogated and

6 I had to turn my back against the window and I was

7 facing the dispensary.

8 Q. Do you mean that during Veseljko's interrogation you had

9 the same position as he had during yours?

10 A. I don't know whether he was sitting on the same chair

11 that I was sitting at when I was in the room, but we met

12 at the door, at the entrance into the room where I was

13 interrogated.

14 Q. Mr. Dordic, did you personally suffer any other physical

15 maltreatment besides what you already said during your

16 stay in Celebici?

17 A. Yes. I was beaten.

18 Q. Can you please describe in detail every single incident

19 concerning you personally, possibly in chronological

20 order?

21 A. On one day Landzo Zenga came in and he said to me that

22 I had to do push-ups, ten push-ups. Then after the ten

23 he started beating me. Then I do two push-ups and then

24 again he kicked me with his soldier's boots here on the

25 side (indicating) and that was repeated every day.

Page 4358

1 Q. Any other incident?

2 A. Then he would beat me also with his rifle butt. He

3 would set light to a fuse on me. Then he forced me to

4 do oral sex with my own brother.

5 Q. Can you describe in detail one by one these incidents?

6 Let us start with the incident of the fuse. Can you

7 describe in detail what happened with this fuse?

8 A. With this fuse he would take a piece of it this long --

9 Q. When you say "he" was taking, who do you mean?

10 A. Landzo Zenga. Zenga took this piece of slow-burning

11 fuse roughly this long and then he -- I apologise. Can

12 I use my own words?

13 Q. You can use your own words, certainly?

14 A. He wound it round my anus. He put one end inside and

15 the other round my penis. Then there was a piece

16 sticking out here. (Indicating). Then he lit it.

17 I have a scar there from this fuse. He did this in

18 front of all the prisoners in the hangar, in the middle

19 of the hangar near the door. All the prisoners could

20 see what Zenga was doing to me, how he set light to this

21 fuse.

22 Q. How did he set light to this fuse? With a match; with a

23 lighter? Do you remember?

24 A. It was a lighter. With a lighter he lit this

25 slow-burning fuse.

Page 4359

1 Q. You mean the end of the fuse that was coming out from

2 the trousers on your back?

3 A. Yes. The part that was sticking out from the back, he

4 set light to it, and the fuse started burning, and then

5 a man ran up to me. I don't know who it was. He put

6 it out. Then somebody called out somebody outside.

7 They were calling "Hazim, Hazim." They put it out. I

8 still have the scar there from this fuse.

9 Q. Could you please explain better where were Mr. Landzo

10 while the fuse was burning after lighting -- after

11 putting fire on the fuse?

12 A. Landzo was next to me. He was standing next to me all

13 the time. I tried to put it out, but he wouldn't let

14 me.

15 Q. How could that happen that another person came and put

16 the fire out?

17 A. The guards outside were saying: "Hazim, Hazim." He ran

18 out, closed the door of Number 6. Then other people

19 came up to me and put out the fire.

20 Q. When you say "he ran out", who do you mean by "he ran

21 out"?

22 A. Zenga ran out of the hangar.

23 Q. Mr. Dordic, could you describe better how did Mr. Landzo

24 wrap the fuse around you? Was that while you were

25 dressed or not?

Page 4360

1 A. He ordered me to take off my trousers and my pants and

2 then he wrapped the fuse round my body.

3 Q. Exactly how did he wrap it round your body? Describe

4 better without being embarrassed.

5 A. May I stand up and show you?

6 Q. Yes, please.

7 A. Thank you. (Indicating). A part of the fuse was

8 right here, under here (indicating) and then back.

9 Then he put an end into my anus, and then the other end

10 was showing up here. Then later he forced me to put on

11 my knickers and my trousers.

12 Q. All right. Thank you. So you were saying a while ago

13 something about oral sex. Could you please now

14 describe this other incident about oral sex in detail,

15 please, without being embarrassed.

16 A. Yes, I can. One day Zenga entered Number 6 and he

17 said -- he told me and my brother: "Get up." We got up

18 and we were there right next to the door. He ordered

19 us to take off our trousers. First my brother took off

20 his and then he forced me to kneel down in front of my

21 brother and to put into my mouth his genitals. So then

22 he -- we changed and while I was holding my brother's

23 sexual organ, he forced us to do that for about two or

24 three minutes. Then he had to -- then I had to get up

25 and my brother had to kneel down in front of me and do

Page 4361

1 the same thing, and all prisoners saw this. It was

2 done in front of all the prisoners.

3 Q. You mean this took place inside the hangar?

4 A. Inside the hangar in front of all the prisoners.

5 Q. Can you say approximately when did this happen?

6 A. In August.

7 Q. Did Mr. Landzo say anything while doing this to you and

8 your brother?

9 A. Landzo said to me in front of all the prisoners: "See

10 what the Serbian brothers and Cetniks are doing.

11 That's what they would do to me too." Those were the

12 words of Zenga Landzo in front of all the prisoners.

13 Q. Mr. Dordic, going back for a moment to the incident of

14 the fuse, did Mr. Landzo say anything during that

15 incident?

16 A. No. He didn't say anything to me. He only lit up this

17 fuse and kept silent and looked at me. I started

18 jumping up and down when this fuse started burning and I

19 tried to put it out, but he would not allow me.

20 Q. Thank you, sir. Did you have any other incident you

21 can describe concerning you personally? I mean, did you

22 ever suffer any other physical maltreatment besides the

23 ones you described so far?

24 A. Later Landzo Zenga had a dug-out where he spent his free

25 time and he would take me there. He would put a gas

Page 4362

1 mask on me and he would beat me in this dug-out.

2 Q. All right. Sir, what physical consequences are still

3 visible in your body after all these incidents?

4 A. After all these events what I have in terms of visible

5 signs are my teeth are knocked out because he was

6 putting his rifle in there, and then I also have the

7 scar from this fuse.

8 Q. Now, Mr. Dordic, did you personally eyewitness any

9 mistreatment of any other prisoner while you were in

10 Celebici? Would you please tell us? Did you eyewitness

11 other incidents concerning our prisoners?

12 A. Yes. Also Landzo Zenga was setting fire on Bendjo. He

13 had a tin with him. There was a flame coming out. I

14 don't know what it was. He was heating the knife on

15 it. Then he would put it against his shin and he would

16 put it against his body, this heated knife. Also there

17 was Mirko Dordic.

18 Q. Wait a minute, please, Mr. Dordic. About this incident

19 concerning Dusko Bendo, where did this happen?

20 A. It happened in Hangar Number 6 in front of all the

21 prisoners.

22 Q. Can you say approximately when did that happen?

23 A. After he burned out the fuse on my body, shortly

24 thereafter he did it to Dusko Bendjo.

25 Q. You can go ahead. You were talking about Mirko

Page 4363

1 Dordic. What were you telling us about that?

2 A. He put the heated pincers in his ear.

3 Q. When you say "he put", who do you mean?

4 A. Zenga put the pincers, heated ones, into the ear of

5 Dusko Bendjo and he also put it on his tongue.

6 Q. You mean Dusko Bendjo or Mirko Dordic?

7 A. It was to Mirko Dordic that he put this heated pincers

8 and to Dusko Bendjo he was placing a heated knife

9 against his body.

10 Q. Where did the incident concerning Mirko Dordic happen?

11 A. This was also in the hangar, in Number 6.

12 Q. Did you personally eyewitness any mistreatment of any

13 other prisoners beside these ones?

14 A. There were other things. They would take people out at

15 night or the day, and they would beat them. We were

16 even beaten inside.

17 Q. Do you know anything because of direct knowledge about

18 the circumstances of the death of any prisoner inside

19 the camp?

20 A. I was present when Keljo was killed. That morning

21 Keljo and I took out the bucket, the one where people

22 were relieving themselves. Padalovic ordered us to

23 take it out and to clean up. We took it out to the

24 toilet behind the hangar and then we cleaned it out and

25 we washed it, the urine where we had -- we hosed it down

Page 4364

1 with water and then Padalovic called: "Keljo, Keljo,

2 come over here." They lit up a cigarette and I stayed

3 at the door. When they lit up cigarettes, Keljo

4 started towards the hangar --

5 Q. Slow down, please.

6 A. When Keljo started towards the hangar Padalovic aimed at

7 him. I was looking, watching it all. He aimed his

8 rifle. He put it against a step and he said: "Keljo,

9 don't run. I'll kill you." Keljo just shrugged off

10 and Keljo started running, and then Padalovic fired and

11 he killed Keljo.

12 Q. Did you personally see Keljo falling to the ground?

13 A. Yes. He fell down, his face to the ground, on the

14 concrete, and I was standing at the door. I had not

15 yet come inside. So I was 5 or 6 metres -- it was 5 or

16 6 metres away from the hangar.

17 Q. Could you personally see where Mr. Klimenta was reached

18 by the shot?

19 A. Keljo was hit here in the small of the neck. I think

20 he was hit right there (indicating), because blood was

21 coming out of his head.

22 Q. You mean you saw blood coming out from that part of the

23 head?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Just to be more clear, what did exactly Mr. Padalovic say

Page 4365

1 to Zjelko Klimenta before this shot took place?

2 A. "Keljo, don't run. I'll kill you." Keljo said: "Come

3 on. Don't joke." Those were the words uttered by

4 Keljo and Padalovic. He said: "Don't joke with me."

5 Keljo started running and Padalovic aimed and killed

6 Keljo.

7 Q. As far as you know, did Keljo have any particular reason

8 to start running?

9 A. Because other prisoners said: "Here's Hazim. Hazim."

10 Then Keljo started running so he would enter the hangar

11 before Hazim Delic arrived. That was the reason why

12 Keljo was running.

13 Q. All right. Mr. Dordic, did the Red Cross ever visit the

14 camp?

15 A. First some foreign team came. They introduced

16 themselves as the Red Cross. They had cameras. Then

17 after they left we were beaten. Some of us were given

18 some statements saying how we were fine. Then when

19 they left, we were beaten again. This was the first

20 time when this foreign team came, and then the second

21 time there was the International Red Cross. They had

22 badges here on their chests (indicating) and it said

23 "Red Cross". At that time we were registered.

24 Q. Did anything particular happen after this Red Cross

25 visit?

Page 4366

1 A. After the first team we were beaten. After the second

2 team of the International Red Cross we were again

3 beaten, all of us.

4 Q. When you say "the first team", do you mean that first

5 team presented itself as Red Cross too?

6 A. Yes. They presented themselves as Red Cross, but they

7 did not anything -- any insignia with them. They had a

8 video camera and they shot with this camera. There

9 were four or five of them.

10 Q. Mr. Dordic, when did you leave Celebici camp?

11 A. I left -- I was transferred to the Musala sports hall in

12 the hall in Konjic.

13 Q. Do you remember when or approximately when?

14 A. I was up there for about a month and a half in the

15 sports hall in Musala before I was exchanged.

16 Q. I mean, do you not remember approximately when you moved

17 from Celebici to Musala?

18 A. I don't recall exactly. I don't recall the exact date.

19 Q. All right. When were you released from any kind of

20 detention?

21 A. I finally was released on 29th November 1992, before the

22 New Year.

23 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Dordic, do you remember that you

24 had an interview with an investigator of this Tribunal

25 in November last year? Do you remember that?

Page 4367

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right. In that interview you said something

3 slightly different from today. You said that you saw

4 Mucic --

5 MR. GREAVES: That sounds very much like someone who is

6 about to be cross-examined by counsel who has called the

7 witness. I respectfully object to that process.

8 JUDGE JAN: How do you bring that in?

9 MR. TURONE: I just want to know why he is -- there is a

10 slight contradiction but I leave it to the

11 cross-examination. So in this case my

12 examination-in-chief is finished, your Honour.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any cross-examinations and the order

14 in which you wish to take them?

15 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, your Honour. Can I have just one

16 moment to consult with ... we are a little bit out of

17 the loop after two weeks. (Pause). Your Honours, we

18 have our order. First, will be counsel for Mr. Delic;

19 second, counsel for Mr. Mucic; third, counsel for

20 Mr. Landzo; and, fourth, counsel for Mr. Delalic.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. I too was a

22 little off my usual pattern. So we break now and come

23 back at 11.45.

24 (11.15 am)

25 (Short break).

Page 4368

1 (11.45 am)

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please invite the witness.

3 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, while the witness is being brought

4 in, just one little housekeeping matter. As the court

5 will recall, Mr. Delic has a bad back and has been

6 authorised to stand. He just wanted me to remind the

7 court of that and also remind the court that sometimes

8 he has a grimace on his face. It is because of pain.

9 It has absolutely nothing to do with the Tribunal or

10 anything else. Last time we were here I believe the

11 Trial Chamber made some remark about the defendants and

12 Mr. Delic just wanted to apologise to the Trial Chamber

13 if you thought that he was being in any way

14 disrespectful. It is not that at all. It is simply

15 that he is in severe pain.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Anything that makes a defendant

17 comfortable will be done. Actually the remark in the

18 Trial Chamber was on a specific occasion. It wasn't a

19 general one.

20 MR. MORAN: I understand, your Honour, but Mr. Delic just

21 wanted to ensure that the Trial Chamber understood that

22 he has the greatest respect for the court as an

23 institution.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think we will

25 take care of what gives him pleasure.

Page 4369

1 MR. MORAN: Thank you, your Honour.

2 (Witness re-enters court)

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Still remind him he is on his oath.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, I'm reminding you that you are still

5 under oath

6 Cross-examination by MR. MORAN

7 MR. MORAN: May it please the court?

8 Good morning, Mr. Dordic. Mr. Dordic, my name is

9 Tom Moran and I represent Hazim Delic in this case.

10 I'm going to ask you some questions, mainly things about

11 what you have already testified about. Sometimes I

12 talk a little fast. Sometimes my questions aren't as

13 clear as they ought to be. If I talk a little fast or

14 if my question isn't clear, would you do me a favour and

15 stop me and ask me to repeat it so that you understand

16 it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Another thing is: will you listen to the

19 question and just answer the question that I ask? Can

20 you do that?

21 A. Yes, I can.

22 Q. And if it requires just a "yes" or a "no", can you

23 answer it with just a "yes" or a "no"?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. One other thing, and you have been real good

Page 4370

1 about it so far but let me remind you, because you have

2 been fairly quiet while I have been talking to you.

3 There's two ladies that are other here, one is over here

4 and one is over there. They are what is called court

5 reporters. They have to write down everything that

6 anyone of us says. If they can't hear you, they can't

7 write it down. They can't just write down a nod, so

8 you have to answer out loud. Can we do that to make

9 their lives a little easier?

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually what counsel is saying is

11 that answers should be by words, not by actions. If

12 you want to nod, if a nod means yes, say "yes". If it

13 means no, say "no" instead of shaking your head. Put

14 whatever answers you want to give in words.

15 MR. MORAN: Can we do that?

16 A. Yes, we can.

17 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. The first thing I would

18 like to ask you is: who did you talk to about your

19 testimony here today?

20 A. Today only with Mr. Prosecutor here.

21 Q. Okay. Did you talk to -- before today, did you talk to

22 anybody about the testimony you were going to give?

23 A. I did not with anyone.

24 Q. No-one at all?

25 A. No-one.

Page 4371

1 Q. How about someone maybe with the Association of

2 Detainees in Belgrade? Did you talk to anybody about

3 what you were going to say to anyone from the

4 Association?

5 A. No. No, I did not.

6 Q. Did you talk to anyone possibly about -- from a

7 television station about what you were going to testify

8 to?

9 A. I once appeared on television briefly at a time when the

10 trial was interrupted.

11 Q. Yes, sir, and you talked to them about your testimony,

12 about what you were going to testify to here, didn't

13 you?

14 A. I talked about not being afraid about giving testimony,

15 that I had no fear about it.

16 Q. You have gave a written statement to someone from the

17 Prosecutor's office, a man named McLeod, back in

18 November of last year; right?

19 A. Yes, in Belgrade.

20 Q. And have you given any other statements to anybody about

21 what you were going to -- about your testimony or about

22 what happened to you in the camp?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. Only to McLeod.

Page 4372

1 Q. Now, as I recall, you testified on your direct

2 examination that you were arrested on July 12th 1992; is

3 that right?

4 A. Yes. That was on St Peter's Day. It was in July. So

5 there was a confusion over the date. It wasn't June,

6 but July.

7 Q. Okay, but you remember it because it was St Peter's Day?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You testified on direct that the morning after you were

10 brought to Celebici Mr. Mucic, Pavo Mucic, came to you

11 and your brother and your father and told your father

12 that he was going to be released. Isn't that what you

13 testified to on direct?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Do you remember the statement that you gave to

16 Mr. McLeod? That's not what you said then, is it?

17 A. I did say the interpreter to tell Mr. McLeod. I don't

18 know if he did interpret it that way in Belgrade.

19 Q. Okay. Let's talk about how the statement was taken;

20 okay, just technically how it was taken. What would

21 happen would be Mr. McLeod would say something in

22 English, ask a question; right?

23 A. Yes, and then the interpreter would interpret it to me

24 into Serbian.

25 Q. Yes, and the interpreter was -- well -- then you would

Page 4373

1 answer into Serbian; right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then the interpreter or somebody would type what you

4 said in English; right? Isn't that what happened?

5 A. No, not the interpreter. The interpreter was

6 interpreting to Mr. McLeod and Mr. McLeod was doing that

7 in English.

8 Q. And then after -- he would write down what you said and

9 then he would ask another question; right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When it was all over, the interpreter read you the

12 statement in Serbian; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you could make any corrections you wanted to on that

15 statement, couldn't you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And after the person -- after the interpreter read it to

18 you and you had a chance to make any corrections you

19 wanted, then you signed the bottom of each page and you

20 signed the back, didn't you?

21 A. Yes. I signed the statement that I gave to Mr. McLeod in

22 Belgrade.

23 Q. So after it was typed, the final version, that was read

24 to you in Serbian before you signed anything; right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4374

1 Q. Okay. Let me ask -- in the statement that you signed

2 and that the interpreter from the Tribunal certified was

3 a correct interpretation it says that your father -- you

4 say:

5 "My father was released on that morning and I

6 heard later that others from Zukici were also released."

7 Did you say that in your statement?

8 A. Yes. Later they were all released together, the rest of

9 the ones who were arrested on the 13th. They were

10 released to go home.

11 Q. You said in your statement:

12 "He was taken from the hangar by a man who

13 introduced himself as Delic. I later learned that his

14 first name was Hazim".

15 Did you say that in your statement?

16 A. No.

17 Q. So when Mr. McLeod and the interpreter wrote that down,

18 they didn't put down what you said; is that right?

19 A. I said that I first saw Pavo Mucic that morning of 13th

20 July when he introduced himself to my father.

21 Q. Yes, sir. Let me ask that question again. Maybe you

22 didn't understand it. What I said was: when the

23 interpreter and Mr. McLeod wrote that down, they didn't

24 write down what you said; isn't that right?

25 A. No. Apparently the interpreter did not interpret.

Page 4375

1 Q. So when the interpreter said that she is a duly

2 qualified and approved by the Registry of the

3 International Criminal Tribunal for prosecutions of

4 persons responsible for serious violations of

5 international law and that she interpreted for you and

6 you understood what she interpreted, she was not telling

7 the truth, was she?

8 MR. TURONE: I object to this type of question to this

9 witness. He couldn't say anything about the behaviour

10 of the interpreter.

11 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, he has just said that the

12 interpreter did not fully and fairly interpret what he

13 was saying.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually, isn't it sufficient to say

15 that that was not what he told her?

16 MR. MORAN: Well, your Honour, he has just said that the

17 interpreter or Mr. McLeod wrote down something he --

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. If that's in contradiction with

19 what he is now saying, the matter is established,

20 because going further doesn't even get you anywhere

21 other than the fact that he is denying that he said

22 that. That's all it means.

23 MR. MORAN: That's true, your Honour. What he is saying is

24 that the Office of the Prosecutor or the interpreter for

25 the OTP misstated some things that he said.

Page 4376

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. You understand what he says?

2 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is what he means. Don't pursue

4 it further.

5 MR. MORAN: Somewhere in your statement, the same paragraph,

6 you said that you saw Mr. Delic several times walking

7 around the camp and the way it reads here it says:

8 "Delic walked normally and I never saw that he had

9 a wounded leg."

10 Did you tell that to the investigators from the

11 OTP?

12 A. Yes. I never noticed that he had any wound on his leg.

13 Q. And he always walked normally?

14 A. He always walked normally.

15 Q. Did someone ask you if he had a wounded leg or he walked

16 normally, or did you just volunteer that when you made

17 your statement?

18 A. No, I didn't say it voluntarily. I got that question

19 from Mr. McLeod, who asked and then this was later

20 translated, interpreted into Serbian.

21 Q. Did you ever meet a man named Memic -- M-E-M-I-C I

22 believe is how it is spelt -- while you were in the

23 camp?

24 A. Memic?

25 Q. Yes. Wasn't he the person that interrogated you at

Page 4377

1 Celebici?

2 A. No.

3 Q. By the way, in your statement to the Office of the

4 Prosecutor you said that you were interrogated -- the

5 day you were interrogated was the first time you met

6 Pavo Mucic; is that right? The first time you met

7 Mr. Mucic was at the interrogation?

8 A. The first time I saw Mucic was on 13th July, when he

9 came to the hangar and he told us that my late father,

10 Jelenko Dordic, could go home, and that the two of us,

11 Jelenko and myself, were staying in the camp to make a

12 statement, and that he would let us go later too.

13 Q. So if your written statement to the Office of the

14 Prosecutor says:

15 "On my second full day in Celebici I met Pavo

16 Mucic for the first time", that would be wrong?

17 A. That was the first time I saw Pavo Mucic and the second

18 time was when I was giving the statement in the office

19 near the registration.

20 Q. Let me read that full sentence. What your statement

21 says is:

22 "On my second full day in Celebici I met Pavo

23 Mucic for the first time, when I was taken for

24 interrogation, and he introduced himself to me and my

25 brother as Pavo."

Page 4378

1 That wasn't the first time you met him, was it?

2 A. That was the second time that I saw Pavo Mucic.

3 Q. And that was about five or ten days after you were

4 brought to Celebici?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So when it says in your statement on your second full

7 day in Celebici, " ... I met Pavo Mucic for the first

8 time when I was taken for interrogation", that is

9 another one of those things where the interpreter for

10 the Office of the Prosecutor got it all wrong?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You never said it to the Office of the Prosecutor?

13 A. I said that I saw Pavo Mucic for the first time on the

14 13th and for the second time when I was giving the

15 statement in the office.

16 Q. That is right. When they said that you said -- that's

17 a bad question. Let me start over. When someone from

18 the Office of the Prosecutor, apparently Mr. McLeod,

19 wrote down that you said in essence that you were

20 interrogated on your second full day in Celebici, you

21 met Pavo then and it was the first time, they got it all

22 wrong; is that what you are saying?

23 A. I said that I saw him on 13th July and a second time

24 when I saw Pavo when I was giving my statement, five or

25 ten days later.

Page 4379

1 Q. Okay. So Mr. McLeod and the interpreter got it all

2 wrong when they typed up your statement?

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is unnecessary. I think he has

4 said everything.

5 MR. MORAN: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honour, if I can

6 have a moment, I think, believe it or not, I may be

7 done. (Pause). Your Honour, I'm going to pass the

8 witness. Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.

10 Cross-examination by MR. GREAVES

11 MR. GREAVES: Mr. Dordic, I'm going to ask you some

12 questions, please, to start off with, about your

13 education, which you told us about earlier on this

14 morning. I would just like to have some more details,

15 please, if you'll help me about that. All right? Can

16 you tell us precisely at what stage you started school,

17 please?

18 A. I was seven.

19 Q. Can you just tell us, please, the name of the school to

20 which you went? Do you remember that, please? That was

21 in Konjic, was it?

22 A. I went to elementary school in Bradina. It was called

23 Vonimir Welz School.

24 Q. You stayed at that school throughout your education, did

25 you?

Page 4380

1 A. Yes. I did.

2 Q. You stayed there for a total of how many years?

3 A. I spent seven years in that school. I repeated one

4 grade. The first grade I repeated.

5 Q. I think in evidence this morning you said you were there

6 for eight years. Are you quite sure about exactly how

7 long you were there? Was it eight years or seven years,

8 Mr. Dordic?

9 A. Seven years I was in that school and I completed my 8th

10 grade in Tarcin as a part-time student.

11 Q. What was the name of that school in Tarcin?

12 A. I can't remember the name of the school in Tarcin.

13 Q. Why did you go to Tarcin to finish off your education,

14 Mr. Dordic? Was there any particular reason?

15 A. There was no particular reason, but my late father,

16 Jelenko, had friends there, and he helped me to finish

17 8th grade there, so that I wouldn't lag behind my

18 generation, so that I could continue my education, so I

19 passed my exams as a part-time student.

20 Q. Had you been lagging behind in your education?

21 A. No. I repeated one year, that's all.

22 Q. Did you have any educational problems that caused you to

23 lag or to have to repeat that year?

24 A. I wasn't good at maths.

25 Q. You'd better join a fairly large club then, Mr. Dordic.

Page 4381

1 I can't admit to being the greatest mathematician on

2 earth. Tell me this then: you went to what my learned

3 friend Mr. Turone describes as technical school. Can

4 you just tell us what sort of course you did at that

5 school after you'd left your elementary school?

6 A. I completed a course for firemen.

7 Q. That took you two years, did it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What sort of qualification did you get at the end of

10 that course, Mr. Dordic?

11 A. I acquired the qualification of a graduate of secondary

12 school.

13 Q. Then you had a period as a construction worker. Was

14 that because you couldn't get a job as a fireman

15 anywhere?

16 A. Yes. I worked for six months in a construction company

17 called Granica in Sarajevo.

18 Q. You did your army service after that; is that right?

19 A. After that I went to another company, the railroads,

20 Elbos -- the company is called Elbos -- and I went to do

21 my military service from Elbos.

22 Q. That was for two years you did your army service; is

23 that right?

24 A. One year. One year, the military service. Before it

25 was 18 months and then they reduced it to one year, to

Page 4382

1 12 months.

2 Q. You had some initial training. Did you complete your

3 initial training?

4 A. I completed my initial training in Sviliniz as a baker.

5 Q. You were not being trained, for example, as an infantry

6 man or anything like that?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Was there any particular reason why you weren't given

9 basic military training, that you were simply trained as

10 a baker?

11 A. We were mostly being trained in baking. We worked in

12 the barracks and prepared as bakers for wartime

13 circumstances within the grounds of the barracks.

14 Q. After your military service you then went back to the

15 railway for a while; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What were your duties as a fireman? What sort of job

18 did you do as a fireman, Mr. Dordic?

19 A. As a fireman I registered incoming trucks and I was the

20 leader of the shift which consisted of five men.

21 Q. All right. Thank you very much. I would like now to

22 ask you, please, about an organisation which is

23 responsible for Serbian refugees. Can you help us

24 about this: you appeared on this television programme,

25 Mr. Dordic. How did you come to be contacted by the

Page 4383

1 television station?

2 A. I came to Belgrade to look for relief, for assistance,

3 because I didn't have any clothes to wear.

4 Q. When was that, Mr. Dordic, please?

5 A. Maybe a month and a half or a month ago.

6 Q. So in May of this year?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And who was it that you approached for help?

9 A. I asked them for help. It wasn't they who asked me for

10 anything. It was the other way round.

11 Q. That wasn't quite the question I asked you. I don't

12 want to be difficult, but just tell us who it was you

13 actually spoke to and discussed getting help with?

14 A. Up there the people responsible, there is the Konjic

15 Detainees' Association. They founded their own

16 association to help people who had fled over here.

17 Q. And, what, you went simply to their offices, did you,

18 when you went to Belgrade?

19 A. I learned where their offices were from my friends and

20 they told me that they had helped them to get some

21 clothes and to get something to live off.

22 Q. So you went to the offices and you spoke, what, to a

23 receptionist or a secretary, did you, when you went in

24 first?

25 A. I spoke to the doorman, asked him where the offices

Page 4384

1 were. Then I went up to the offices.

2 Q. Had you had any contact at all with this organisation

3 prior to this visit that you made?

4 A. No.

5 Q. So let's just go through it. You were sent upstairs by

6 the doorman. Then you went into the offices

7 themselves; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who did you speak to in the offices, Mr. Dordic?

10 A. That was the first time I met Dusitsa Bojic.

11 Q. What did you talk about with her?

12 A. I said that I needed help.

13 Q. Did she want to know who you were?

14 A. Later through my story she learned who I was, where

15 I had been and then she helped me.

16 Q. Did you tell her that you were due to be a witness at

17 this Tribunal?

18 A. She knew I was in Belgrade to make the statement for

19 Mr. McLeod.

20 Q. So she already knew of your existence as a witness prior

21 to your arriving at their offices?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. Did she tell you how she knew about that fact?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you give any sort of statement to the Serbian

Page 4385

1 Refugees' Organisation whilst you were there, Mr. Dordic?

2 A. I did not make any statements.

3 Q. Did you talk about your evidence that you were going to

4 give to this Tribunal? Did you talk about that at all

5 with her?

6 A. That was the first time I saw her.

7 Q. That wasn't quite the question I asked, was it,

8 Mr. Dordic? Did you discuss your evidence with her?

9 A. No, I didn't.

10 Q. How did you get in touch with the television station?

11 Whose idea was that?

12 A. I happened to be there by chance. The day I came there

13 to ask for relief, it was just by chance.

14 Q. Who asked you if you would give an interview to the

15 television people? Whose idea was it, Mr. Dordic?

16 A. They asked me whether I would be willing to talk and I

17 said there would be no problems.

18 Q. Well, was it the people from the organisation who asked

19 you to give an interview or the people from the

20 television station?

21 A. The people from the television station.

22 Q. Would your Honour just give me a moment, please?

23 (Pause). Who else at the Association did you meet on

24 that occasion, Mr. Dordic?

25 A. There were lots of people in the office. I saw them

Page 4386

1 for the first time, so I don't know who they were, nor

2 what they were.

3 Q. Did you join the organisation as a member?

4 A. Yes, later, at the time I became a member of the

5 Association. I said I needed help because there was

6 nothing I could really do. I had to find a way of

7 living.

8 Q. Did they say that you had to join the organisation

9 before you could get any help? Is that what it came to?

10 A. They didn't.

11 Q. Have you been to their offices on subsequent occasions

12 and met with people there?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Have they been in touch with you? Have they contacted

15 you since your visit there?

16 A. I didn't have any contact with them at all.

17 Q. So let's just summarise this: you made one single visit

18 to their offices. You have joined the organisation?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. By sheer coincidence there just happened to be a TV crew

21 visiting on that very day that you happened to be there;

22 that's what it comes to?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. You've been asked, Mr. Dordic, about your

25 evidence concerning the first evening which you spent in

Page 4387

1 the camp at Celebici. I want just to get it quite

2 clear the process by which you came to give a statement

3 to the Office of the Prosecutor. Did that take just a

4 single day for it to be recorded, what you were saying?

5 A. In Belgrade or when Mr. McLeod came?

6 Q. Just help me about this: you have made a statement to

7 somebody in Belgrade, have you?

8 A. I don't have any statements in Belgrade anywhere, only

9 with Mr. McLeod, when I gave the statement to him.

10 Q. Help me, Mr. Dordic: why did you need me to clarify to

11 you whether I meant in Belgrade or Mr. McLeod, if you

12 haven't made a statement to somebody in Belgrade?

13 A. I don't remember giving anybody else a statement in

14 Belgrade. I just made a statement to Mr. McLeod when

15 they looked me up on the telephone. The police looked

16 for me.

17 Q. Yes, but a moment or two ago when I asked you how long

18 it took for your statement to be recorded your reply

19 was:

20 "In Belgrade or when Mr. McLeod came?"

21 Why did you mention "in Belgrade", if you have not

22 made a statement, Mr. Dordic?

23 A. There was no other except that statement for

24 Mr. McLeod. That was the first time I came in December,

25 when Mr. McLeod came to make a statement.

Page 4388

1 Q. So why would it be necessary for you, when asked the

2 question, to say and ask me to clarify it: "In Belgrade

3 or Mr. McLeod" if you haven't --

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Frankly, if he said he made no

5 statement in Belgrade, I don't see what you need.

6 MR. GREAVES: Would your Honour just give me a moment?

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think it is not being fair when you

8 repeatedly ask the questions. You asked him the third

9 time.

10 MR. GREAVES: So you were seen by Mr. McLeod. How long did

11 it take to record your statement, Mr. Dordic?

12 A. I made the statement in the morning from 8 o'clock in

13 the morning until somewhere around 7 o'clock in the

14 evening.

15 Q. At the end of the day you were taken through all of the

16 writing that had been put down; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 A. It was a man who was interpreting. I don't recall

21 exactly his name.

22 Q. So the man who was interpreting had the document in

23 front of him which had been dictated by you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And at the end of that procedure did you sign each page

Page 4389

1 of the statement?

2 A. I signed in Latin script and with my initials.

3 Q. And can I just remind you of doing this: you also

4 signed a certificate at the end of the statement; is

5 that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You remember that being read over to you and you signing

8 it and dating it?

9 A. There was a certificate and I remember signing it as

10 well, yes.

11 Q. Would you accept from me that it reads in part:

12 "This statement has been read over to me in the

13 Serbian language and is true to the best of my knowledge

14 and recollection."

15 Do you remember that?

16 A. I remember.

17 Q. And what you had told Mr. McLeod that day, that was the

18 truth, was it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you also, when having the statement read over to you

21 by the interpreter, the gentleman who was interpreting

22 on behalf of the OTP, acknowledge to the interpreter

23 that the facts and matters that had been read over to

24 you, as translated by that person, were true to the best

25 of your knowledge and recollection? Do you remember

Page 4390

1 doing that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that because what had been read out to you was true

4 to the best of your knowledge and belief?

5 A. Partially.

6 Q. Can you just explain what you mean by "partially",

7 please, Mr. Dordic?

8 A. It was correct.

9 Q. So it was fully correct or only partially correct?

10 A. It was correct.

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is like buying a pig in a poke.

12 He doesn't even know what those statements are now,

13 except to the extent to which he recollects.

14 MR. GREAVES: We'll see whether we can just take it a little

15 further and clarify it, if we may; for your Honours'

16 assistance, of course.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, because unless he knows what he

18 said then, then he will not know whether it is correct

19 or not.

20 MR. GREAVES: I was going to come to that, if I may. You

21 have been asked about your account concerning Mr. Mucic

22 and the first night when you were at the camp,

23 Mr. Dordic. Do you accept that what you have said in

24 evidence and what you signed as being correct in your

25 statement are two quite different things concerning that

Page 4391

1 incident?

2 A. I met Pavo Mucic for the first time when I was taken to

3 the camp, the second day after I came to the camp, and

4 when I was giving my statement.

5 Q. Do you understand that the statement which you gave to

6 the Office of the Prosecution and the evidence which you

7 have given are two quite different things? Do you

8 understand that?

9 A. No.

10 Q. All right. Let me just put it to you another way,

11 Mr. Dordic. Will you accept from me that the evidence

12 you have given about Mr. Mucic that night, that's

13 evidence you told us about this morning, is completely

14 different from what you recorded to Mr. McLeod and the

15 interpreter in November of last year? Will you accept

16 that from me?

17 A. I made a statement first to McLeod. He asked me

18 questions. I do not know how the interpreter

19 translated what I was saying.

20 Q. But you've told us it was read over to you at the end,

21 so you had an opportunity to clarify it, to change it in

22 any way?

23 A. For changing the statement I didn't have time, because

24 the translator read it out to me fast. He was reading

25 it fast.

Page 4392

1 Q. You see, what I suggest to you, Mr. Dordic, is that it's

2 not true that Mr. Mucic came to see you that first

3 night. That's why it's not in your statement?

4 MR. TURONE: Objection, your Honour. Asked and answered.

5 Everything in Mr. Moran's cross-examination. Anyway, we

6 do not object if Mr. Greaves wants to enter into evidence

7 the previous statement. Thank you.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He is entitled to ask his own

9 questions.

10 MR. GREAVES: I'm grateful. One occasionally likes to put

11 a slightly different slant on matters from one's

12 esteemed colleagues.

13 The question was, Mr. Dordic: I suggest to you

14 that it's not true that Mr. Mucic saw you in the way you

15 have described on your first night in the camp, and that

16 is why it's not in your statement to the OTP?

17 A. Mr. McLeod didn't ask me that. He asked me when I was

18 arrested and I answered. They didn't put that in my

19 statement.

20 Q. Just help me about this, please, Mr. Dordic: when you

21 told Mr. McLeod that it wasn't until you were

22 interrogated by Mr. Mucic, that was the first time that

23 you met him, that was also incorrect, was it?

24 A. That was not correct. The first time I saw him was

25 when he came to Number 6 on 13th July. He took me, my

Page 4393

1 brother and my late father out from Number 6 and he

2 said: "Jelenko, you're going home and your two sons are

3 staying here to make a statement, and they'll follow you

4 shortly." That was the first time I saw Pavo Mucic.

5 He introduced himself to my father. He shook hands

6 with him and he said he was Pavo Mucic.

7 The second time was when I was giving the

8 statement in the command building.

9 Q. Just help us about this, and perhaps you might like to

10 stand up and point to it: which building do you say

11 that this interrogation took place in, Mr. Dordic?

12 A. In the command building near the entrance gate. That

13 was how they called it, this building, at the reception.

14 Q. Can you see the big scale plan that's in front of us,

15 the model? Just point it out on there, please,

16 Mr. Dordic. Point out the building that you say you

17 were interrogated in.

18 MR. TURONE: Please let us tell the witness if he wants to

19 walk around and watch, of course, comfortably the model

20 he can do that.

21 MR. GREAVES: I will of course do that. Mr. Dordic --

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You are free to go out and be as close

23 as possible to the building you can identify.

24 MR. GREAVES: You may need to be careful with your

25 headphones.

Page 4394

1 MR. TURONE: I believe he has never seen before this model.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Which is the building?

3 A. Here (indicating).

4 MR. GREAVES: For the purposes of the written record, it's

5 the building that is coloured red.

6 Thank you very much, Mr. Dordic. Thank you.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can go back to your seat.

8 MR. GREAVES: On which side of the building do you say the

9 room was where you were interrogated?

10 A. There (indicating).

11 Q. If you need to get up and point again -- is it on my

12 side of the building or, as it were, the railway side?

13 A. On your side, that side, at the entrance gate.

14 Q. And we can see that there are some rooms with windows

15 that go down nearly to the ground and then some windows

16 that are about two-thirds of the way up the wall. Were

17 you interrogated in the ones with the windows two-thirds

18 of the way up the wall?

19 A. I was questioned and the window was facing the

20 infirmary.

21 Q. So that we're clear again, would you like just to take

22 the pointer, please, again, and just tell us which

23 building you think of as the infirmary?

24 A. (Indicating) this is where the infirmary was.

25 Q. Just for the sake -- thank you very much, Mr. Dordic.

Page 4395

1 You can sit down again, if you like, please.

2 Just for the sake of clarity, that's a building

3 that's on, as it were, the side of the main part of the

4 camp. Would you accept that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Not on my side of the model.

7 A. Near the building parallel to where I was questioned;

8 across from that building was the infirmary.

9 Q. In your evidence this morning you spoke about Hazim

10 Delic using a pistol in some way. Can you explain to

11 us, please, why in the statement which you made to

12 Mr. McLeod there is no mention whatever of such an

13 incident?

14 A. I mentioned -- I don't know if the interpreter said

15 that, but I mentioned all the details that I knew when

16 I was giving this statement. I said everything.

17 Q. But someone waving a pistol around and using it on you,

18 that's a fairly significant item of information, isn't

19 it? Would you accept that?

20 A. Hazim Delic personally forced me to sign this statement,

21 but I was not saying anything. He was dictating it to

22 Ismeta and Ismeta was typing it up. Then he forced me

23 to sign it. I wanted to sign it in the Roman alphabet,

24 but I had to do it in the Cyrillic alphabet there in

25 that administrative building.

Page 4396

1 Q. You see, what I want to suggest to you, Mr. Dordic, is

2 that your account that you have given us of that

3 interrogation today was quite different from what you

4 put down and signed as being true in 1996.

5 MR. TURONE: I object to that. It's not so different.

6 MR. GREAVES: No mention of an incident with a pistol, was

7 there?

8 A. I said that to the interpreter that he was holding it

9 here against my temple (indicating), and then he hit me

10 at the top of my head, and at that time he also slapped

11 me, and then he took me to the toilet to wash up,

12 because my nose was bleeding.

13 Q. I suggest to you that you are not telling the truth

14 about that incident, Mr. Dordic. That's why that matter

15 that you've just recounted isn't in your statement to

16 the OTP?

17 A. I said that in Belgrade. I don't know -- I don't know

18 if this interpreter did interpret this to Mr. McLeod,

19 because he asked me everything from when I was first

20 arrested and how I was giving the statement and I

21 responded to all the questions in Belgrade and I said

22 that.

23 Q. I want to ask you about a man called Ivica Buric,

24 please. Was that someone you knew at the camp?

25 A. No, I did not know him.

Page 4397

1 Q. Not at all?

2 A. I did not know him at all, because I worked in Sarajevo,

3 and in Konjic I did not work ever.

4 Q. Did you see Mr. Buric at the camp in Celebici whilst you

5 were there?

6 A. I don't remember, because a long time has gone by.

7 Q. Can I refresh your memory, please, with what you told

8 Mr. McLeod in your statement to the OTP about him, and

9 see if that refreshes your memory:

10 "I know Ivica Buric", it says. "He worked at the

11 camp. He occasionally came to the hangar with Delic."

12 Then you describe how Mr. Buric would beat people,

13 but less frequently than other people. Do you remember

14 that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You obviously lost members of your family as a result of

17 the war, Mr. Dordic, and I'm very sympathetic towards you

18 concerning that. I hope you understand that?

19 A. I lost my father, my mother, my aunt -- two aunts.

20 Q. Has that made you very bitter towards the people that

21 had got you incarcerated at Celebici?

22 A. Yes. At one point I was thinking when I heard that my

23 father and my mother and two aunts were killed -- I was

24 wondering why I was not with them.

25 Q. Is it also because you weren't there to protect them,

Page 4398

1 Mr. Dordic?

2 A. You mean to protect my father and mother?

3 Q. Yes, because you were locked up at Celebici?

4 A. I think that I was forcibly detained there without a

5 reason because I had no weapons issued to me, and I

6 belonged to no organisation.

7 Q. I don't want to distress you in any way, Mr. Dordic. I

8 hope you understand that. I just want to explore this

9 a little way, please. Did you feel guilty at not being

10 able to protect your family because you were detained at

11 Celebici? Is that one of the things that made you feel

12 bitter towards the people who were there?

13 A. Yes. At one point I thought that it would have been

14 better if they had released me on 13th July, so we would

15 all be killed together, rather than go through all the

16 tortures I suffered at Celebici.

17 Q. I understand that, Mr. Dordic. What I want to ask you

18 is this: do you see the people working at Celebici camp

19 whilst you were there as being in some way responsible

20 for the deaths of your family?

21 A. When I could stay in prison, why my late father could

22 not stay there? There was no reason for him to be

23 detained. He also was not issued any weapons. So I

24 could have been released with them when they were

25 released, both myself and my brother.

Page 4399

1 Q. Would you go so far as to say that you hate the people

2 who kept you detained there?

3 A. No, I did not say that I hated them.

4 Q. But you are very bitter about them?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. No further questions. Thank you.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any further questions?

8 Cross-examination by MR. ACKERMAN

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm advised that we have a dead

11 computer over here.

12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: It is no longer recording the transcript,

13 your Honour.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If we can get the engineer to see what

15 is wrong. We will find someone to come and look at it.

16 (Pause.)

17 Mr. Ackerman, I think we might rise now and come

18 back at 2.30.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. That's fine.

20 (12.50 pm)

21 (Luncheon Adjournment)





Page 4400

1 (2.30 pm)

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly invite the witness.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: May I bring something to the court's

4 attention before the witness comes in?


6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, as a result of some of the

7 testimony this morning I'm becoming, and I think I share

8 this with several of my colleagues, increasingly

9 concerned about the issue of whether or not these

10 witnesses have made statements other than statements to

11 the Office of the Prosecutor and, if so, where they

12 are.

13 If we start first with the witness that was on the

14 stand today, your Honours will remember that there was a

15 time when he was asked by Mr. Greaves about his statement

16 and the witness said:

17 "In Belgrade or the one to Mr. McLeod?", giving

18 some of us at that point the impression that he was

19 identifying that he had made more than one statement

20 with regard to what happened to him in this case. The

21 evidence for that continues to mount.

22 Your Honours will remember the videotape that this

23 witness appeared on that we played for you and gave you

24 a transcript of, where there was much talk in the nature

25 of "our witnesses", in the nature of "how we have

Page 4401

1 prepared them well", and things like that.

2 We also have, and I will make these a part of the

3 record as soon as I can, a newspaper clipping from a

4 newspaper called Telegraf, which is a Serbian weekly of

5 March 6th, 1996, where one of the witnesses that the

6 prosecution is going to be calling this week told the

7 reporter that:

8 "All the statements given by witnesses to the

9 Association of Detainees are translated into English and

10 signed by the witnesses. All those statements are to

11 be forwarded to the legal counsel of the Tribunal group,

12 Teresa McHenry, who investigates the Muslim crimes

13 against the Serbs."

14 Now I don't know whether those statements were, in

15 fact, forwarded to her or not, but that is certainly

16 evidence that the statements exist.

17 Then just recently there has been -- there is

18 apparently an internal battle going on inside the

19 Association of Detainees in Belgrade in which the

20 President is being accused by other functionaries in

21 that Association of doing some things that are

22 improper. The President gave an interview -- and his

23 name is Petar Fiodorov -- President of the Association

24 of Detainees gave an interview to a newspaper called

25 Gradjanin, which was published on June 17, 1997, in

Page 4402

1 which he said some very interesting things. He said:

2 "To become a member of that Association", as this

3 witness indicated that he was, "a pre-condition for

4 getting a membership card was to give a statement".

5 He claims that that is blackmail, because the only

6 way you could get help from this Association, that this

7 witness indicated he was asking for, is to give such a

8 statement. The President of the Association calls that

9 blackmail. He says elsewhere in connection with his

10 interview that:

11 "The statements of the detainees were placed

12 at places used to make coffee."

13 He is complaining that they were just left lying

14 around the office, but that certainly is evidence that

15 there are such statements and that those statements

16 exist.

17 The next thing that is of concern is the

18 connection between the Association of Detainees and the

19 Serbian government in Belgrade, headed by Slobodan

20 Milosevic. This President again says:

21 "The commission that was working on the Celebici

22 case, which was led by Dusitsa and Branka, was financed

23 by different ministries",

24 leaving the impression at least that those were

25 ministries of the Serbian government, and this

Page 4403

1 Association of Detainees, although referred to as an

2 NGO, is simply a shadow organisation of the Serbian

3 government.

4 It seems to me that there may be more fire than

5 smoke with regard to this issue at this point, and that

6 something needs to be done to finally and totally

7 clarify this. I would propose several things.

8 First of all, let me say it would be a terrible

9 thing to happen to this Tribunal if this Tribunal is

10 being used by the Serbian government as an extension of

11 what went on during the war in some way. This

12 Association seems to be very anxious in assisting the

13 Tribunal in prosecuting Muslims and providing

14 information against Muslims but certainly it has not

15 been very anxious to send its war criminals to this

16 Tribunal. One wonders about that.

17 I would propose the following: first of all, that

18 the prosecution state for the record whether or not they

19 have any statements that were received from the

20 Association of Detainees that were made by these

21 witnesses, signed and translated into English, as one of

22 these witnesses apparently told a newspaper reporter; if

23 they don't have them, state whether or not they know of

24 their existence and whether or not such statements, in

25 fact, exist; third of all, that the prosecution be asked

Page 4404

1 without delay to investigate the source of all this

2 information that such statements exist and determine

3 whether or not, in fact, they do, and if they do, make

4 them available; finally, that the prosecution look into

5 the connection, if any, between this Association of

6 Detainees and Slobodan Milosevic's government in

7 Belgrade. Thank you.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. I don't know

9 how far the trial of this Trial Chamber can be

10 diverted. I suppose if every information which comes

11 out of newspapers or gossips are followed, there will be

12 no end to this trial. There are statutory provisions

13 enabling you to ask from the prosecution whatever

14 statements they have and they should offer you all the

15 statements within their possession. If you don't have

16 more than that and you know further statements, I

17 suppose you might be able to procure them and confront

18 them with it, but I do not think we could go on a wild

19 goose chase for every statement which comes out in

20 newspapers.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Please understand, your Honours, that I am

22 not asking for any kind of a delay, not even a

23 five-minute delay. I am prepared to go forward with

24 this witness and all other witnesses, but these are

25 matters which are of grave concern to us and they just

Page 4405

1 keep coming up time after time after time.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: From what I observe, it's likely to

3 come up until it is finished because there has been

4 every occasion for anybody to bring in their fashion of

5 things.

6 MS. McHENRY: I don't know if your Honours want me to speak

7 to this at all. I certainly agree with your Honours

8 that the fact that something may or may not be said in

9 the press is not evidence, and defence counsel has been

10 given extremely wide latitude to cross-examine the

11 witnesses about their ties with the Association, and

12 they are, of course, free to do what they want. I will

13 state for the record that if the prosecution has

14 statements of these witnesses, they have been provided

15 to the defence. I don't know that the prosecution

16 would take the position that in all circumstances if

17 they are not Office of the Prosecutor statements, we

18 need to, but, in fact, in this case if we have a

19 statement from one of the witnesses that is at all

20 related to Celebici, that has been provided.

21 With respect to the issue about what was in the

22 paper, I believe that this was clarified at one of the

23 prior hearings, when defence counsel raised this --

24 brought this matter up, which is that it appears that

25 the statement about what was being done and what was

Page 4406

1 translated into English has to do with a mission in

2 Timosoira that the Association arranged many of the

3 logistics for, because the Office of the Prosecutor was

4 not permitted to enter the FRY. The Association

5 arranged the logistics, and the Tribunal investigators

6 interviewed people in Timosoira. Those statements are

7 translated as the witness speaks into English and then

8 were brought back to The Hague. The Association does

9 not have copies of those statements. That is what at

10 least the prosecution believes is the most likely

11 explanation for what was in the paper.

12 As to whether or not there are additional

13 statements that witnesses have given or have not given,

14 other than to say that we don't have any specific

15 information, they are not in our possession, and their

16 existence, to the extent such statements exist, there is

17 certainly nothing improper about them. People are

18 entitled to give statements about what happened to them

19 to whomever they want, and as to whether or not the idea

20 the prosecution should look into the funding of this,

21 regardless of who funds this Association, the

22 prosecution doesn't believe that is relevant in the

23 absence of any evidence that the Association has done

24 anything improper to subvert the course of justice here.

25 If the defence themselves wants to do some of their

Page 4407

1 own investigation because they disagree with us and

2 think that it is relevant, of course they are able to,

3 but we don't believe that it's the least bit relevant.

4 NGOs and governments often have biases or whatever on

5 one side or the other and often help, but that's not

6 necessarily a reason to find what they are doing is

7 improper. The issue is: have they done anything to

8 improperly influence the witnesses in this case? I

9 believe this has been examined at great length and the

10 prosecution believe there is absolutely no evidence to

11 suggest that. Thank you.

12 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, the impression that is being

13 given by the series of newspaper articles is this -- it

14 is probably deliberate on the part of the Serbian

15 government organisations, but I know that -- but the

16 impression that is being given is that the Office of the

17 Prosecution is the cat's paw of the Serbian

18 government. If that is the impression going abroad,

19 then it is one that the prosecution ought, in my

20 respectful submission, to consider very seriously,

21 because for them to be seen by the outside world as in

22 any way associated with one particular side of this

23 conflict would fatally undermine the authority of this

24 Tribunal.

25 With the greatest respect to my learned friend

Page 4408

1 Mr.s McHenry, for her to be dismissive about this problem

2 is in my respectful submission unwise on her part. The

3 prosecution as a whole must start to address this

4 problem, because the impression that is being given when

5 the Serbian Refugees' Organisation talks of "our

6 witnesses" is that this Tribunal is no more than an arm

7 of the Serbian political establishment. That's a very

8 dangerous and subversive thing to be getting abroad, and

9 it is one which, in my respectful submission, lies at

10 the heart of the complaint that we have and the concerns

11 we have, because we are interested not just in our

12 clients' cases but also interested that this should be a

13 just -- and seen to be a just proceeding.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. Can you tell

15 the witness to come?

16 (Witness re-enters court)

17 Cross-examination by MR. ACKERMAN.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Will you please remind him he is on

19 his oath?

20 THE REGISTRAR: May I remind you that you are still

21 testifying under oath?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: May it please the court. May I proceed?

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, your Honour.

25 Mr. Dordic, my name is John Ackerman. I'm one of

Page 4409

1 the lawyers representing Esad Landzo in this case.

2 Good afternoon.

3 A. Good afternoon.

4 Q. I have a few questions I want to ask you. If I ask you

5 a question that you do not understand, please give me an

6 opportunity to re-ask it so that you can understand it;

7 okay?

8 A. Okay.

9 Q. I'm not getting a translation.

10 A. Okay.

11 Q. If you have some confusion about one of my questions,

12 don't assume you understand without letting me know and

13 maybe I can rephrase it in a way that you will

14 understand it; okay?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. Some time ago previous to your appearance

17 in this court you had in some manner instructed the

18 prosecution to request protection for your appearance

19 here; isn't that true?

20 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

21 Q. You knew, did you not, that this court had entered an

22 order granting you that protection? You knew that;

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you knew that that meant that your name and address

Page 4410

1 and identifying data about you was to be kept secret and

2 not revealed to the public in any way for your

3 protection; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now with that all in mind and knowing that all those

6 efforts have been made by everyone here, including the

7 court, you appeared on Belgrade TV on May 27, 1997 under

8 your own name; correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You told them who you were?

11 A. I did.

12 Q. Your name appeared on the screen of that programme?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you talked about the things you claim had happened

15 to you at Celebici camp in that programme?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You told Mr. Greaves this morning, when he was

18 questioning you, that the reason you gave that interview

19 was that you were asked to do so by the Belgrade TV

20 station?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So someone must have given them your name and identified

23 for them knowledge that you had for them to be

24 interested in talking to you; correct?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 4411

1 Q. Did you run up to them when you saw the cameras there,

2 saying, you know: "My name is Vaso Dordic. I know

3 about Celebici. Please interview me. I want to be on

4 TV." Is that the way it happened?

5 A. No.

6 Q. The way it happened --

7 A. I just happened to be there. I came to ask for help.

8 Q. How did they know that you were somebody that they might

9 be interested in interviewing?

10 A. While I was talking to the Association they were

11 there. I don't know why they had come.

12 Q. But you were talking to the Association about your need

13 for clothing; right?

14 A. Yes. I was saying that I needed clothing, that I needed

15 accommodation and some aid.

16 Q. They were not interested in interviewing you about your

17 need for clothing, accommodation and aid, though, were

18 they?

19 A. No.

20 Q. They were interested in interviewing you about your

21 experiences in Celebici; correct?

22 A. Yes, but I don't know how they knew that I was the one.

23 Q. Someone must have told them; correct?

24 A. Yes, surely. I don't know how they learned my real

25 name. They -- some people sent me to the Association

Page 4412

1 to seek assistance. I went to Belgrade. I sought

2 assistance from them, asking them to give me clothes.

3 Q. Well, there was someone there at the Association who

4 knew who you were and knew about your experiences in

5 Celebici apparently; correct?

6 A. I don't know whether anybody knew. That was the first

7 time I saw Mr.s Dusitsa Bojic.

8 Q. So the television people just sort of made a lucky guess

9 that you might know something about Celebici?

10 MR. TURONE: Objection, your Honour. Asked and answered.


12 A. That was the first time I saw Dusitsa Bojic, when I came

13 to ask for assistance. A TV crew was there. I

14 introduced myself to Mr.s Dusitsa Bojic. I told her who

15 I was, where I came from, where I'd been, and that I

16 needed assistance badly.

17 Q. Was the TV crew permitted to overhear the conversation

18 you had with Ms. Bojic at that time?

19 A. Probably. How do I know? They were there at that

20 moment.

21 Q. Well, when you talked to Ms. Bojic, was it in an

22 office?

23 A. In the office, yes.

24 Q. And the TV crew was in the office while you were talking

25 to Ms. Bojic?

Page 4413

1 A. Yes. They were in the office.

2 Q. And you mentioned to Ms. Bojic that your name was Vaso

3 Dordic, and that you had been a detainee in Celebici?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And knowing that you had asked for and been granted

6 protection by this court, you agreed to give up all that

7 protection and go on television in Belgrade?

8 A. I didn't give up the protection.

9 Q. Well, the protection was designed to keep your name and

10 the circumstances of what happened to you at Celebici

11 secret and private and not disclosed to the public,

12 wasn't it? Isn't that what the protection was designed

13 for?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And when you go on television that goes on satellite all

16 over Europe, that kind of gives that up, doesn't it?

17 A. How did I know that that would go on television?

18 Q. Well, if there's --

19 A. I didn't know at all it would go on television.

20 Q. So you sat in front of TV cameras with an interviewer

21 asking you questions and giving answers to those

22 questions with no idea that this would be broadcast on

23 television?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you told by them that they would not use it, that

Page 4414

1 they would keep it secret?

2 A. They didn't say anything. They simply approached me

3 and started to interview me.

4 Q. Were you told by Ms. Bojic that it would be kept secret

5 and it would be no problem for you to talk with them,

6 because they wouldn't reveal anything? Did she tell you

7 that?

8 A. No. She didn't say anything.

9 Q. So you just assumed that you could give an interview to

10 a commercial public television station and that they

11 would respect your privacy and not broadcast it? Is

12 that what you are telling the court?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So you have talked now with Belgrade TV about this

15 situation; you have talked with Mr. McLeod about this

16 situation; you have talked with Mr. Turone about this

17 situation, your testimony. Who else have you talked to

18 about your experiences in Celebici?

19 A. Only with Mr. McLeod and the gentleman when I came here,

20 with no-one else.

21 Q. Well, if that's the case, how did Mr. McLeod know to talk

22 to you? How did he even know who you were?

23 MR. TURONE: Objection, your Honour. The witness could

24 even not know how investigators can reach his name.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Do you know how Mr. McLeod would have had any

Page 4415

1 idea that you were of interest in this investigation?

2 A. I don't know. I don't know at all how they found out

3 my name, that I had come out of prison and ...

4 Q. Because before Mr. McLeod approached you, you had never

5 told anyone else that you had been a prisoner at

6 Celebici; is that your statement?

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is his answer not conclusive that he

8 did not know? I thought it was conclusive.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: That's fine with me, your Honour. That's

10 fine with me.

11 So the first time you spoke of what happened to

12 you in Celebici was to Mr. McLeod on November 15, 1996?

13 A. That was the first time that I was giving a statement to

14 Mr. McLeod in Belgrade.

15 Q. But that wasn't my question. My question was: that

16 was the first time you had spoken with anyone about your

17 experiences in Celebici camp?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. Now was there any reason, after having asked the

20 prosecution to secure protection for you, and after

21 having put this court through the process of considering

22 the matter and issuing you an order giving you that

23 protection, based upon your fear, that you would then go

24 on television and say on television: "I'm not afraid at

25 all"?

Page 4416

1 MR. TURONE: Objection, your Honour. Asked and answered.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: That one is not asked and answered.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let him tell us why he did not want

4 protection any longer. That's what he's asking.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: What made you decide on that day in May 1997

6 to give up that protection?

7 A. I did not give up the protection. They were just

8 telling me this interview and I gave them this

9 interview.

10 Q. And you didn't ask them that your name be protected or

11 that your face be blurred or anything like that, did

12 you?

13 A. How did I know that I would be on television? I just

14 didn't know.

15 Q. Did you see yourself on television?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Have you seen the tape since then?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you remember what you said on television?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Now that was in May of 1997, about two months ago;

22 correct? Less than two months ago?

23 A. No. I don't remember.

24 Q. You don't remember when you gave the interview to

25 Belgrade television?

Page 4417

1 A. I don't.

2 Q. Do you remember that it was this year?

3 A. I remember that it was this year but I don't remember

4 the month and the date.

5 Q. You have testified at length here today about things

6 that happened in 1992, five years ago, and now you're

7 telling us you can't remember what happened in 1997,

8 when you talked to Belgrade TV, and what you said?

9 A. I can't recall all exact details.

10 Q. Well, you testified to a lot of exact details about what

11 you claim happened to you in Celebici five years ago,

12 yet you don't remember any exact details about your

13 television interview two months ago?

14 A. No.

15 Q. In your testimony this morning you told this court

16 several dates, the date that Bradina was first attacked,

17 the date that Bradina was second attacked, the date that

18 you were arrested in your home, the date that you went

19 to Celebici camp, the date that your father was released

20 from Celebici camp, the date that you were released from

21 Celebici camp. You can remember all those dates, but

22 you can't remember what date you were interviewed by

23 Belgrade TV two months ago?

24 A. I can't -- I don't know which television this was, in

25 fact.

Page 4418

1 Q. Isn't it the case that the reason you can tell this

2 court about things that you claim happened to you in

3 Celebici camp was because someone else told you all

4 those things and you had memorised all those things, so

5 that you could come here today and say them?

6 A. Nobody -- in fact, I did not have any contact with

7 anyone here before this trial.

8 Q. Okay. Now on November 15th 1996 you were interviewed

9 by Mr. McLeod; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. One of my colleagues has just handed me a note and let

12 me just take a moment and ask you this question: have

13 you been interviewed by other television stations other

14 than the one that we have been talking about?

15 A. No, no other television.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He says he didn't even know he would

17 be on television.

18 Q. That's what prompted the question whether there might be

19 multiple interviews.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: There might be many others.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: I want to go back to November 15th 1996 when

22 you were interviewed by Mr. McLeod. Do you remember

23 that date?

24 A. I know that it was in 1996, but what month and date,

25 that I don't.

Page 4419

1 Q. So you don't know whether it was February, April,

2 November, October? You don't know what month?

3 A. I don't know the dates.

4 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't understand you.

5 A. I don't know the dates. The month I do know. I know

6 that it was December 1996.

7 Q. December of 1996 was when he interviewed you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. That interview took place in Belgrade?

10 A. Belgrade, yes.

11 Q. Where in Belgrade?

12 A. In the building in New Belgrade, in the offices.

13 Q. Was that the offices of the Association of Detainees or

14 some other organisation?

15 A. No. No. It wasn't the Association of Detainees at all.

16 Q. What was the organisation that that office belonged to;

17 do you know?

18 A. The international offices. Down there -- I gave the

19 interview down there to Mr. -- I mean the statement --

20 to Mr. McLeod.

21 Q. You told us this morning that this was an interview

22 process that lasted from 8.00 in the morning until 7.00

23 in the evening?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. 11 hours?

Page 4420

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And in that seven (sic) hours, what was produced out of

3 that seven hours was a seven-page statement. At least

4 that's what I have, a seven-page statement. Are you

5 aware of that, that that's all that came out of that

6 interview?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. There must have been a lot of things said back and forth

9 between you and Mr. McLeod that didn't make it into this

10 statement, weren't there?

11 A. I don't know if all the details came in, but I spent 11

12 hours with Mr. McLeod in Belgrade. That was when I

13 first gave the statement.

14 Q. During that 11 hours he was asking questions and you

15 were giving him answers; correct?

16 A. He was asking questions and I was giving answers.

17 Q. Now you have been testifying here today for maybe two

18 and a half hours total, and in that amount of time we've

19 produced 93 pages of transcript; does that surprise you?

20 A. No.

21 MR. TURONE: Objection, your Honour. The witness has no

22 control on how a record is typed by other persons during

23 his interview.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: That's my point. That's exactly my point.

25 Thank you, Mr. Turone.

Page 4421

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, your Honour.

2 JUDGE JAN: The person typing was a novice or what?

3 MR. TURONE: The person typing was not the witness anyway.

4 JUDGE JAN: This is exactly what he wants to know. Two

5 and a half hours produced 93 pages and 11 hours produced

6 only 7 pages. Maybe something which he said was not

7 recorded.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is it 11 continuous hours of

9 questioning or did you have breaks within that period?

10 A. I entered into the building at 8 o'clock in the morning

11 and I left the building at 7 o'clock at night, and I had

12 an hour break.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: So there were only ten hours of questioning?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. One of the things that you knew on that date

16 that you gave this statement to Mr. McLeod was you knew

17 that Mr. Landzo had been arrested and was in custody of

18 the International Tribunal; correct?

19 A. No. When I was giving that statement, that is when

20 Mr. McLeod told me about that. Until that time I didn't

21 know about it at all.

22 Q. Yes. He told you that. He also told you that

23 Mr. Delic, Mr. Mucic and Mr. Delalic had also been

24 arrested?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4422

1 Q. And so in the course of that discussion with Mr. McLeod

2 you learned that the four people from Celebici, who had

3 been arrested, were in custody and going to be tried,

4 were the four that are in this courtroom today:

5 Mr. Landzo, Delic, Mucic and Delalic; correct?

6 A. I didn't know they were going to be tried.

7 Q. You heard they had been arrested?

8 A. I heard they had been arrested.

9 Q. What Mr. McLeod told you they were interested in was

10 anything you could do to help gather evidence against

11 these four defendants; correct?

12 A. Mr. McLeod said that I should give a statement to him how

13 I experienced my sufferings in the Celebici camp.

14 Q. But you knew that these were the four people who had

15 been arrested and the four people who he was interested

16 in your talking about; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You knew that other people had not been arrested. You

19 knew that Padalovic had not been arrested, or you were

20 not told that he had been; correct?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And Osman Dedic?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And a guard called Makaron?

25 A. Right. And there were some others as well.

Page 4423

1 Q. You knew things about what all these other people had

2 done at Celebici and all these other guards had done,

3 didn't you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Of course, because of the bitterness that you told

6 Mr. Greaves about this morning, you were very anxious at

7 that point to help Mr. McLeod as much as you possibly

8 could?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In fact, there came a time, did there not, when you were

11 asked if you would be willing to speak to

12 representatives of these defendants, and you refused to

13 do so?

14 A. I did not refuse anything.

15 Q. I'm sorry. I did not hear your answer.

16 A. I don't recall very well that I said that.

17 Q. Do you recall anyone from the prosecution telling you

18 that representatives of the defendants in this case

19 wanted to talk with you?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So at least to the extent that representation might have

22 been made to this court it didn't apply to you?

23 A. No.

24 Q. When you gave that statement to Mr. McLeod in Belgrade in

25 December of 1996, he told you that he -- the Office of

Page 4424

1 the Prosecutor had interviewed Mr. Landzo, did he not?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And he told you things that Mr. Landzo had said during

4 the course of that interview, didn't he?

5 A. I don't recall very well.

6 Q. He told you, didn't he, that Mr. Landzo had said during

7 his interview that he had an injured hand?

8 A. He asked me while Landzo Zenga was hitting me whether he

9 had a bandaged hand and I said that he did not.

10 Q. So the question was whether his hand had a bandage on it

11 and not whether or not you noticed that it was injured;

12 correct?

13 A. I did not see a bandage on his hand.

14 Q. So when your statement claims that you said that

15 Mr. Landzo did not have an injured hand, that wouldn't be

16 true; what you really said was that you didn't see a

17 bandage on his hand?

18 A. I never saw him in the Celebici camp with a bandage on

19 his hand.

20 Q. Right. Do you know today, as you sit here, whether or

21 not Mr. Landzo has an injury to his hand and had an

22 injury to his hand without a bandage on it during the

23 time he was at Celebici and today? Do you know that?

24 Do you have any knowledge of that?

25 A. No.

Page 4425

1 Q. Okay. Now you have told us today that you were

2 arrested at Zukici on 12th July 1992?

3 A. The 12th, on St Peter's Day. That was in July.

4 Q. You were brought to Celebici, along with several other

5 persons; correct?

6 A. They were not other people. It was my mother, father,

7 brother, aunts and a relative and two of their children.

8 Q. First you went to a hotel in Konjic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Between the time you were arrested and the time you got

11 to the motel in Konjic, you were beaten, were you not?

12 A. We were beaten in the motel.

13 Q. Who was beaten in the motel besides you?

14 A. Beside me, my brother was beaten up in the motel, Savo

15 Dordic, my late father, my late mother, Radojka Dordic

16 and Gosa Dordic.

17 Q. Do you know who it was beat you at the Konjic motel?

18 A. No. There were some men there and there was a young

19 woman there and they called her Gara.

20 Q. Were these people wearing uniforms or did they appear to

21 be civilians?

22 A. They had uniforms on, camouflage uniform.

23 Q. And any insignia on those uniforms?

24 A. Some did; some did not.

25 Q. The one or more who beat you, did any of those have

Page 4426

1 insignia on their uniforms?

2 A. Yes, they did.

3 Q. What insignia?

4 A. The insignias were TO.

5 Q. Tell the judges in as much detail as you can possibly

6 remember the injuries that you received during these

7 beatings at the motel in Konjic?

8 A. They kicked us and they beat us with hands and with

9 rifles and other things. Savo Dordic had part of his

10 ear cut off. They climbed onto the vehicle and cut off

11 half of his ear.

12 Q. Who was that that had his ear cut off?

13 A. It's my uncle.

14 Q. What specific injuries did you receive as a result of

15 these beatings?

16 A. I was kicked and I was hit in the back. I fell to the

17 floor and they were also kicking me there over my back

18 and also with the rifles.

19 Q. Did you become unconscious as a result of these

20 beatings?

21 A. No. I even -- there was a soldier, one of them, and he

22 even forced me to lick a wound that he had. So I had

23 to do that.

24 Q. Did you have any wounds? Were you bleeding as a result

25 of these beatings at the Konjic motel?

Page 4427

1 A. No. I did not have any injuries on my ...

2 Q. If we had seen you after those beatings, would we have

3 been able to tell that you had been beaten?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So you had marks on you at least?

6 A. I have the ones that are the consequences of my stay in

7 Number 6 and also my teeth are broken. Until then

8 I had all teeth in my upper jaw.

9 Q. So your teeth were broken during your beating at the

10 Konjic motel?

11 A. No, that was in Number 6.

12 Q. I'm talking about the Konjic motel. If we had been

13 able to look at you after you were beaten at the Konjic

14 motel, would we be able to tell that you'd been beaten?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. Now, of course, all of your relatives who were

17 arrested with you on 12th July 1992 were the same ethnic

18 background as you. All of you were Serbian; correct?

19 A. Yes, we were.

20 Q. And so those who were released the next day, 13th July

21 1992, the people who released them knew that it was

22 Serbian ethnic people that were being released from

23 Celebici, didn't they?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now give me your best approximation of when it was you

Page 4428

1 were released from Celebici and sent to Musala?

2 A. It was in 1992. I was altogether five months in

3 prison. A month and a half of that I spent at Musala.

4 Q. So if you went to the prison middle of July, your

5 position is then that you stayed there until middle of

6 October, middle of November?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you recall saying in your statement to Mr. McLeod that

9 you left Celebici at the end of October?

10 A. Middle of October or end of October. I don't know

11 exactly the date. I spent a month and a half at

12 Musala.

13 Q. You talked a little bit ago about seeing the uniforms

14 with the TO insignia on them. What does that insignia

15 look like?

16 A. They were circles and it had "TO" inside the circle.

17 It was written in.

18 Q. Okay. You told us this morning that Mr. Landzo beat you

19 every day that you were at Celebici. Do you remember

20 saying that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you remember also saying in your statement that after

23 the visit of the Red Cross that there were several days

24 that nobody was beaten?

25 A. Yes. After the humanitarian organisation who came there

Page 4429

1 the second time, there were several days that nobody was

2 beaten, and then again they started beating us.

3 Q. So when you say that Mr. Landzo beat you every day,

4 that's a bit of an exaggeration, isn't it?

5 A. Not exactly every day. Sometimes every other day;

6 every third day.

7 Q. Now, knowing that Mr. McLeod was interested in Mr. Landzo,

8 Mr. Delic, Mr. Mucic and Mr. Delalic, and because of your

9 bitterness and your willingness to help the prosecution

10 as much as possible, what actually happened was, because

11 Padalovic and Osman Dedic and Makaron and several of

12 these other guards who did things at Celebici were not

13 arrested, you sort of made Esad Landzo the composite

14 character of all these guards, didn't you?

15 A. I did not say that Esad Landzo was guilty for all the

16 guards. They should have been arrested too. If he

17 was arrested, then all of them should have been arrested

18 too. I did not say that Esad Landzo is the only guilty

19 one among them.

20 Q. You took things that these other guards did to you and

21 to other prisoners and blamed them on Mr. Landzo in the

22 course of your statement to Mr. McLeod, because he was

23 the only one under arrest; isn't that true?

24 A. I said that the others beat too, not only Esad Landzo.

25 Q. For instance, the person who really forced you and your

Page 4430

1 brother to do the sex incident that you testified about

2 here this morning was not Mr. Landzo but Osman Dedic,

3 wasn't it?

4 A. That is not true. Esad Landzo entered the Number 6 and

5 he ordered us to take off our clothes and kneel down in

6 front of one another, and he forced me to put my

7 brother's sexual organ in my mouth and did that several

8 times.

9 Q. You have already testified about that. My question

10 was: "Wasn't it Osman Dedic that did that?", and I guess

11 your answer is: "No, it was Mr. Landzo"?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Will you concede that Osman Dedic was there?

14 A. Osman Dedic was outside.

15 Q. Will you concede that Padalovic was there?

16 A. Padalovic was there, too.

17 Q. Right next to Mr. Landzo?

18 A. I don't really remember.

19 Q. Of the time that you were there, did you ever visit the

20 command building other than the one time when you were

21 interrogated?

22 A. I went to the dispensary, because I was beaten up before

23 that and my nose was bleeding, and it had all covered my

24 face and my neck, and my brother and I went to the

25 dispensary. Otherwise I didn't go there, to the

Page 4431

1 command building.

2 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Who gave

3 you permission to go to the dispensary?

4 A. Delic asked in the morning whether anybody needed to

5 go. The two of us didn't dare apply and then he

6 addressed the two of us and told us to go to the

7 dispensary, because he saw that we were covered in

8 blood, and he took us to the dispensary for them to

9 clean us up, and then my brother's arm was also

10 bandaged, because it had been broken.

11 Q. So you went to the dispensary one time?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You went to the command building one time?

14 A. Only once.

15 Q. Did you spend any time during the time you were there

16 other than coming in and going out at the front gate?

17 A. No, I didn't.

18 Q. Okay. Mr. Landzo was, I think you characterised in your

19 statement, just an ordinary guard at Celebici; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You know that during the time you were there family

22 members were permitted to bring food to prisoners on

23 occasion?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. After you were transferred to Musala, you saw Mr. Landzo

Page 4432

1 there wearing a white belt, did you not?

2 A. I assumed that he was then transferred to the military

3 police, because he had a white belt.

4 Q. Can you tell us the first day that you recall seeing

5 Mr. Landzo at Musala wearing a white belt? When would

6 that have been?

7 A. I don't remember exactly the day. Soon after I went to

8 Musala, maybe ten or twenty days later was when I saw

9 him wearing this white belt.

10 Q. Let me now take you back to your testimony this morning

11 about the shooting incident that you claim to have

12 observed with Zeljko Klimenta. You remember that;

13 correct?

14 A. I remember.

15 Q. Now what you told us this morning was that you and

16 Zeljko had gone outside together and that when this

17 incident happened, you were standing by the front door

18 of Hangar 6 and had not yet gone back inside, and that's

19 how you were able to observe what happened. That's

20 what you said this morning; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you recall telling Mr. McLeod in your interview with

23 him in December in Belgrade that you were lying inside

24 Hangar 6 when you saw this incident happen? Do you

25 recall telling him that?

Page 4433

1 A. No. I was standing with Zeljko Klimenta, because that

2 morning we had taken the bucket out. The bucket was at

3 the bottom of the hangar which we used for toilet

4 purposes.

5 Q. I understand that was your testimony this morning.

6 This must be another one of those instances where the

7 translator that was present during your statement to

8 Mr. McLeod did not understand the difference between

9 standing outside and lying inside and therefore got it

10 wrong; right?

11 A. Maybe he made a mistake in interpreting to Mr. McLeod.

12 I said I was standing outside, outside the door.

13 Q. That's what you said in your interview in Belgrade,

14 wasn't it, that you were standing outside, just like you

15 said here today?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So when the translator translated that as lying inside

18 the hangar, that was a pretty lousy job of translation,

19 wasn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you have reason to believe that Padalovic shot Zeljko

22 Klimenta on purpose, or do you tend to believe that that

23 was an accident?

24 A. I don't know whether it was on purpose or whether it was

25 an accident.

Page 4434

1 Q. Did you see Mr. Padalovic distraught and crying after it

2 had happened?

3 A. When he killed the late Zeljko Klimenta, Padalovic ran

4 up. The other guards ran up too and closed the door, so

5 I couldn't see at that moment whether Padalovic was

6 crying, because the doors of Number 6 were closed.

7 Q. Did you ever hear that he was crying?

8 A. I didn't hear.

9 Q. Did you ever see him again after that day?

10 A. After some time I saw Padalovic again at the same spot,

11 when we used to go to the toilet in the morning to

12 urinate.

13 Q. Do you know whether or not he continued to work as a

14 guard at Celebici after this incident?

15 A. I saw him after some time. After that I didn't see

16 him. I was transferred to the sports centre at Musala.

17 Q. Now just to make certain that we're all clear about

18 this, it's your testimony that this shooting happened in

19 October, very shortly before you were taken to Musala;

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You told us this morning that you became a member of

23 some association in Belgrade. Which association was it

24 you became a member of?

25 A. It's an association of detainees from Konjic.

Page 4435

1 Q. And what was it you had to do to become a member of that

2 association?

3 A. I didn't have to do anything.

4 Q. Were you issued some kind of a membership card?

5 A. I have a membership card.

6 Q. Do you think I could go there and become a member?

7 A. Probably. How do I know?

8 Q. You don't know that -- in other words, you don't have to

9 be a detainee to be a member, as far as you know?

10 A. They are mostly people who were in camps that were

11 members.

12 Q. Did they ask you, when you asked to be a member, if

13 you'd been in a camp?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So you went there asking for help and they just said:

16 "You have to be a member", and they didn't really care

17 whether you'd been a detainee or not; is that your

18 testimony?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. So maybe any of us in here could just walk in there and

21 say: "I need clothes", and they would give us clothes

22 without asking us anything. They would give us a

23 membership card and give us clothes; right? Is that the

24 way it works?

25 MR. TURONE: I object, your Honour. This is amounting to

Page 4436

1 harassment. This witness has already stated how he

2 became a member, how he spoke to the lady there in the

3 Association and that the lady knew who he was, etc.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'm through with all those questions in

5 any event, judge. I have another, however. Do you

6 have your membership card with you?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Is it here in The Hague or is it back home?

9 A. At home.

10 Q. Could you describe it?

11 A. White paper, cardboard paper. It's about this size

12 (indicating) and it has my picture on it.

13 Q. And I assume it also has your name on it?

14 A. Yes, my name, first and last.

15 Q. Date of birth?

16 A. The date of birth, where I was born and the municipality

17 I was born in, which municipality I was born in.

18 Q. Does it also say the camp in which you were detained?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Where did you get the picture for the card?

21 A. I had my photo taken for this card. I had my photo

22 taken.

23 Q. Somewhere other than the office of the Association?

24 A. It wasn't at all in the office of the Association.

25 Outside at a photographer's.

Page 4437

1 Q. So when you came and asked to be a member, they told you

2 that you had to go and get your photograph taken;

3 correct?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Are you still pursuing this trend,

6 because I don't know what it's all about?

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Judge, I think I'm through with that trend,

8 although it continues to bother me.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Because he has admitted he is a member

10 of the Association. There's no doubt about that.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: I agree. I'm concerned about what the

12 President of the Association has said, that you cannot

13 be a member if you don't give them a statement about

14 your experiences, and I might ask you, Mr. Witness, if

15 you were told that?

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That disqualifies you from being a

17 member.

18 A. No, they didn't say anything to me.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Right. I think that's --

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That disqualifies counsel from being a

21 member.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: If that's true, I would be disqualified.

23 Frankly I don't mind being disqualified. Thank you,

24 your Honours.

25 JUDGE JAN: Maybe you make a large donation and they will

Page 4438

1 make you a member.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think that's the last

3 cross-examination. Do you have anything for him? I

4 didn't see he had anything for your client, but if you

5 still want to.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, you just

7 said that this was the last cross-examination, because I

8 don't have any questions for this witness. Thank

9 you.

10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour --

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.

12 MR. MORAN: Before his release, there's a matter that came

13 up and I thought I would just point it out. I am sure

14 there is a simple explanation to it. He testified at

15 some length that he gave a statement in Belgrade. The

16 prosecutors have represented to the court this afternoon

17 that the Office of the Prosecutor was not welcome in the

18 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. I'm sure there's a

19 simple explanation, but before he is released, I think

20 we ought to find out what's going on, just get this

21 cleared up.

22 JUDGE JAN: He also said he made a statement in some

23 international office. Maybe it's the Office of the

24 Prosecutor.

25 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour, but what my question was --

Page 4439

1 is: Ms McHenry has this afternoon told the Tribunal -- I

2 think her exact words were that the Office of the

3 Prosecutor could not go to the FRY or was not allowed to

4 go to the FRY, something like that. I'm sure there's

5 some easy explanation but I would like to have it

6 cleared up.

7 MS. McHENRY: Certainly your Honours. We have no

8 objection. At the time the statements were taken in

9 Timosoira -- which was significantly before this witness

10 was interviewed -- at that time the prosecution had not

11 been permitted to go to the FRY to take statements.

12 Subsequently the Office of the Prosecutor has been

13 permitted to go within the FRY to take statements.

14 MR. MORAN: Like I said, your Honour, I was sure there was a

15 simple explanation and I just got it.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any

17 re-examination?

18 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, we would only like the previous

19 statement of this witness to enter into evidence, since

20 we don't believe it contains any inconsistency as to the

21 very description of the interrogation inside the command

22 building. So I would like to show the statement to the

23 witness, ask him if he recognises his signature in it,

24 then tender it for admission, and that would be all for

25 my re-examination. May I ask that the witness be

Page 4440

1 provided with the statement just to see whether he can

2 recognise his signature?

3 JUDGE JAN: Do you want additional material? Do you want

4 something which has not come in cross-examination to be

5 brought through re-examination?

6 MR. TURONE: This is exactly the statement that in all

7 cross-examination was mentioned to a great extent, the

8 previous statement done with Mr. McLeod in November 1996

9 in Belgrade.

10 MR. MORAN: Well, your Honour, I would object on two

11 reasons. First, this exceeds the scope of cross.

12 Secondly, the witness has testified, I think fairly

13 clearly, that the interpretation is not reliable, and,

14 given that, this is clearly not reliable evidence for

15 purposes of the Tadic Decision. Again there's things

16 -- the statement is full of things that nobody talked

17 about on cross-examination. It clearly goes outside

18 the scope of cross.

19 MR. TURONE: You mean the statement given to Mr. McLeod? It

20 was touched many times in cross-examination. If I may

21 add some argument, we are trying to do this, because,

22 for instance, in his cross-examination Mr. Greaves made

23 some generalisations and characterisations about what

24 was said, but did not state exactly what was said. So

25 for the record to be accurate and complete, we believe

Page 4441

1 the statement to be useful and that it should be

2 admitted. Thank you.

3 JUDGE JAN: How is that possible? You want to bring

4 something new in re-examination. This does not arise

5 out of cross-examination.

6 MR. TURONE: It's only to be considered for purposes of

7 showing the extent to which -- it's not really a

8 statement through which this witness can be really

9 impeached on what he said -- for instance, when

10 describing the very interrogation he had inside the

11 command building -- and this arises directly out of

12 cross-examination.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think it does. We can see the

14 reliability of this past statement is being

15 questioned.

16 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, just --

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Whether what he has said in the Trial

18 Chamber today is different from what he said in his

19 statement has been challenged.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: The reliability of the statement is not being

21 questioned by the defence. It's being questioned by

22 the witness. He is the one who said the statement is

23 not reliable, not us. This is totally improper at this

24 point. If Mr. Turone wanted this statement in evidence,

25 then it should have been offered at the beginning during

Page 4442

1 his direct examination, because now we find ourselves in

2 the position where brand new evidence is coming into

3 this case that we should have the opportunity to conduct

4 substantial additional cross-examination on. I want to

5 cross-examine him about every statement in there now as

6 to whether the translator got it right or wrong.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: When you were putting those

8 discrepancies to him, you had the statement with you.

9 You are mentioning discrepancies in those statements

10 from what he said to the Trial Chamber. You knew about

11 them, but actually it was not in evidence at the time

12 you were raising those points.

13 JUDGE JAN: I wish to qualify now. Are you relying upon

14 the statement which is made in this court today or the

15 statement which he made before the investigator?

16 MR. TURONE: We are trying to --

17 JUDGE JAN: I think there is a difference. For example,

18 Mr. Ackerman pointed out about Klimenta's death. In

19 that statement he said he was lying inside. Today he

20 said he was standing at the door. On which are you

21 relying?

22 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, there might be simply some

23 misunderstanding and some misinterpretation of the words

24 in the statement. This is why I believe if the

25 statement does not enter into evidence your Honours

Page 4443

1 would never be able to control whether actually there is

2 an inconsistency or not. Anyway, we are relying on

3 what the witness said today.

4 JUDGE JAN: And not the statement which he made before the

5 investigator. It is not his substantive evidence.

6 MR. TURONE: No, not at all.

7 JUDGE JAN: Then why are you producing it?

8 MR. TURONE: Just because -- as I said, for instance,

9 concerning the real -- the very description of the

10 interrogation inside the command building, when there

11 was a pistol, etc, Mr. Greaves made some

12 characterisations about what was said but did not state

13 exactly what was said. So for the record to be

14 accurate and complete, we believe the statement must be

15 admitted for this reason.

16 MR. MORAN: Judge, he is taking the position that a

17 seven-page statement that contains things that nobody

18 has talked about in this courtroom at all today is

19 admissible for all purposes because Mr. Greaves did not

20 read a statement that supposedly impeached this

21 witness. It just opens up the door. I know if this

22 entire statement comes in I have at least another two

23 hours of cross-examination.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think perhaps you might have changed

25 your mind. Initially all that happened was this

Page 4444

1 witness was contradicted by what he said in his previous

2 statement and with some other statements about which

3 perhaps there were doubts whether they were available or

4 not. It appears there was an existing statement on the

5 basis of which he was contradicted on what he said

6 before the Trial Chamber. So if there is an

7 opportunity of correcting that particular contradiction,

8 then it is good for the Trial Chamber to have it.

9 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, like I say, my position is this is

10 a seven-page statement. I am going through picking

11 things at random.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You need not have relied on it even in

13 your cross-examination if you did not talk about it.

14 MR. MORAN: Like I say, your Honour, there are substantial

15 things in here that were not the subject of either

16 direct or cross-examination that are just totally --

17 have nothing to do with anything that this man said

18 today.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: There are things he said there which

20 were not said here today and that was pointed out.

21 There are areas where he has gone further, which he did

22 not read today, but areas where he described as being a

23 wrong interpretation or not even a correct

24 interpretation of what happened, which might have been

25 misreported by the interpreter. These were all pointed

Page 4445

1 out.

2 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour, and that's the best reasons I

3 can think of for excluding this document from evidence.

4 If there is perchance some part of the document that I

5 mischaracterised the contents of, or Mr. Greaves

6 mischaracterised the contents of, or Mr. Ackerman

7 mischaracterised the contents of, then clearly that's a

8 proper subject for re-examination, but, given the fact

9 that this clearly exceeds the scope of cross, and, two,

10 is a document which the witness says is not a reliable

11 document --

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The Trial Chamber has to make up its

13 mind on what is the evidence before it. These are two

14 contradicting areas.

15 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think as I understand it, this

16 man has been asked on cross-examination: "Did you make

17 this statement?" He said: "No, I sure didn't". He

18 says: "That's a misinterpretation". Okay. At that

19 point the full statement that was in question, that

20 portion of the statement, was placed before the Trial

21 Chamber. The Trial Chamber clearly has before it

22 sufficient information to determine whether or not this

23 statement was made. It will not get any more by having

24 the --

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I understand you. Traditionally when

Page 4446

1 a statement is directly challenged by the defence you do

2 it that way, but when out of your cross-examination

3 there is an inference that he has made something

4 contradictory to what he has stated in the Trial

5 Chamber, the prosecution is entitled to correct that

6 inference.

7 MR. MORAN: I concur completely with the court. What I'm

8 saying to the court is this entire statement doesn't go

9 in. If Mr. Turone in re-direct wants to go and clear

10 that up and say: "Didn't you tell Mr. McLeod back on

11 November 11th 1996 this?", I have no problem with

12 that. What I have is this seven-page document -- I've

13 got a problem with the seven-page document that's not

14 the subject of cross-examination, that the witness says

15 is unreliable, coming in as evidence before the Trial

16 Chamber, the actual paper, not those portions.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Will he now say it is reliable?

18 MR. MORAN: Beats the heck out of me, judge.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Will he now say it is reliable? If in

20 his evidence-in-chief he said certain things stated in

21 there were not reliable, can he now say they are

22 reliable? It is only those things which were stated.

23 MR. MORAN: Again, your Honour, I think my objection is

24 clear. I am not objecting to Mr. Turone clearing up

25 things in cross-examination and using the statement. I

Page 4447

1 think that's perfectly proper for him to do. There's

2 no question about that. The problem I have and I think

3 the problem Mr. Ackerman has is that when we stick an

4 exhibit tag on this thing and the Prosecutor moves to

5 introduce this piece of paper into evidence, then he is

6 anticipating going well outside the scope of cross, well

7 outside the scope of his own re-direct and attempting to

8 deprive us of our right to cross-examine and confront

9 this witness. As long as it is limited and it is done

10 orally like we were doing, I have absolutely no problem

11 with him saying: "Well, isn't it true that you made a

12 prior consistent statement to something?" That's

13 fine. It's just the whole document doesn't come in.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us hear him, what he wants to

15 introduce it for.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think the key to resolving

17 this is very, very simple from an evidentiary

18 standpoint. The Prosecutor said in response to Judge

19 Jan's question: "Are you relying on the statement or on

20 the testimony of the witness?", the Prosecutor said:

21 "We're relying on the testimony of the witness, not on

22 the statement". Ergo --

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Therefore he doesn't have to tender

24 it.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Ergo the statement is unreliable. Ergo the

Page 4448

1 statement does not have any probative value and should

2 not be admitted.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Not only in theory, in practice where

4 a statement has been challenged through

5 cross-examination or it was not presented to the witness

6 himself, it is possible to introduce it in order to

7 correct the impression that it was not properly made,

8 that the statement itself does not contain what it

9 says. It could be. But if the argument which it is

10 now here is that the prosecution says he is not relying

11 on it, then they need not actually from the beginning

12 have wanted to put it in, because if he was relying on

13 it also, then it becomes necessary for him to discuss

14 whether it should enter.

15 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. Just also to clarify at

16 least, I think, my position: when I say "reliability of

17 the statement", I don't mean that I agree with the truth

18 of the words in the statement, okay, but what I'm saying

19 is it is my position that the interpreter for the Office

20 of the Prosecutor properly interpreted what this man

21 said, but I'm not challenging the reliability of the

22 statement. I think that the Office of the Prosecutor

23 and its interpreters perform their duties as they're

24 supposed to, and I think there's an assumption under the

25 law that public officials perform their duties like

Page 4449

1 they're supposed to. It's this witness that has

2 challenged the --

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: His own statement.

4 MR. MORAN: No, your Honour, he has challenged the --

5 whether the Office of the Prosecutor and its

6 interpreters properly exercise their duties as public

7 figures. I haven't done that. I don't think anybody

8 up here has done that on the defence side. It would be

9 my position that, regardless of the overall truth or

10 falsity of the words on this paper, that they are the

11 words that he spoke in Belgrade in November of 1996 and

12 that were interpreted for Mr. -- whatever his name is --

13 the investigator, Mr. McLeod, and they were properly

14 typed out, and that it was properly read back to this

15 witness and that he could have made any corrections. I

16 just don't think -- I can't stand here in good faith and

17 tell you that the Office of the Prosecutor, its

18 investigator and its interpreter are trying to pull a

19 fast one on anybody. I think they're doing their job.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Where I personally part ways with you

21 is that you could not introduce a statement in

22 re-examination. You could, depending on what was

23 involved in the cross-examination.

24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think -- I don't think we're

25 parting ways. I think it is just an extent. I don't

Page 4450

1 think that the whole thing comes in. I think just

2 portions of it that were dealt with on

3 cross-examination. It would be the relevant parts and

4 other parts of it would not be relevant or probative of

5 anything. Somebody needs to go through with a black

6 marker and black it out.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is not a toothcomb here. At least

8 what he would perhaps have done is indicate those areas

9 which are read in cross-examination and then indicate

10 what he wants to do with that statement.

11 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think we are in perfect agreement

12 that Mr. Turone needs to go forward a little bit, but I

13 think that -- I think let us let him go forward and see

14 what he wants to do rather than put in the entire

15 statement.

16 MR. GREAVES: Since the matter has been raised concerning my

17 cross-examination, can I say this?


19 MR. GREAVES: I was very careful to put one and only one

20 specific point to the witness that he had not dealt with

21 in his statement. I did not go -- and quite

22 deliberately did not go beyond that incident concerning

23 the pistol. My learned friend is entitled to ask those

24 questions which arose from cross-examination. I very

25 carefully sought to prevent him having that opportunity

Page 4451

1 by the questions being put carefully about the pistol

2 and the pistol only. In my respectful submission what

3 he is trying to do is get evidence that he could not get

4 out of his witness in the first place in by the back

5 door. That's an improper use of re-examination, in my

6 respectful submission.

7 MR. TURONE: May I respond, your Honour? I would like to --

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

9 MR. TURONE: I would like to insist that if we are seeking

10 to enter into evidence this paper, it's not for the --

11 not as evidence for the truth of the matters which are

12 written in this paper, only to help the Trial Chamber to

13 determine the extent to which the witness has impeached

14 in part this document and has not been impeached

15 himself. Anyway, since this -- I understand it is a

16 typical common law issue. Let me ask Ms McHenry to add

17 some argument, please, your Honour.

18 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, I will be very brief. I think,

19 in fact, that there is not necessarily a large amount of

20 disagreement here. The defence attorneys attempted to

21 impeach this witness with the statement. They did not,

22 however, for instance, state exactly what the witness

23 had said such that there are some -- and the witness

24 himself was not presented with it and, in fact, doesn't

25 even read the language. So there are some things that,

Page 4452

1 in fact, can very well be explained. An example is

2 when, for instance, the witness says about Mr. Keljo:

3 "He was killed by Padalovic in front of the

4 hangar, and the small door beside which I was lying was

5 open, so I could see this."

6 Defence counsel impeached him with this.

7 Certainly the prosecution would like the actual words to

8 be in there. For instance, there could be an argument

9 about this can clearly be seen as a possible

10 interpretation issue, and the small door besides which

11 this witness was normally lying. It doesn't

12 necessarily read it, especially when you see the detail

13 of the seven pages. The defence counsel also attempted

14 to impeach him generally and say: "All you do is talk

15 about Delic". In fact, when you look at the statement

16 as a whole, you can also see that he talks about other

17 people.

18 The prosecution is not trying to bring this into

19 evidence for things other than what this witness

20 testified. We are relying on the witness's testimony

21 but to the extent that the defence attorneys have all,

22 other than the Delalic defence which did not

23 cross-examine -- since the defence attorneys have all

24 attempted to impeach him, the document should be

25 admitted solely for the purposes of determining to what

Page 4453

1 extent, if any, the witness has been impeached.

2 Now, it may be that in certain jury systems you

3 would have to do it a different way and go through the

4 entire statement and discuss this in great length and

5 ask for an interpretation and then ask this. In front

6 of your Honours, your Honours can consider evidence for

7 only limited purposes. Certainly we believe that this

8 Chamber can -- and in other trials I believe this has

9 happened -- consider this statement just to the extent

10 to which it does and it does not impeach him. In fact,

11 previously defence counsel have introduced statements

12 for that purpose and they are considered for

13 impeachment, and, to the extent that the defence has

14 attempted to do this but does not actually have the

15 impeaching document, the prosecution is certainly

16 entitled to present the entire document to your Honours,

17 so your Honours can look at it and say: "Yes, he has

18 been impeached about this", or, "I don't believe so."

19 It is entirely appropriate and, in fact, in the long run

20 more accurate and will save time.

21 JUDGE JAN: Why can't we have it for the purpose of

22 impeachment only?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 JUDGE JAN: Why can't we have it on the record for the

25 purposes of impeachment only?

Page 4454

1 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think this: first, the Tadic

2 Decision that we have beaten to death over the months

3 says that evidence has to be, one, reliable, and, two,

4 relevant. Let me just toss this out as a hypothetical

5 to the court. The second to last paragraph in this

6 thing says:

7 "While at Musala some of the prisoners, including

8 myself, were sent for labour", and then it continues.

9 What in the world is that relevant to? It doesn't have

10 anything to do with anything.

11 JUDGE JAN: That is why I said only for the purposes of

12 impeachment. You have impeached his credibility on the

13 base of a certain statement. The prosecution wants

14 that statement to be brought into the record.

15 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, let me first say that Ms McHenry

16 has made the statement that in certain jury systems we

17 do certain things. In fact, in the jury systems that

18 I'm used to, and it may very well not be the systems in

19 other countries, judges will regularly instruct jurors:

20 "You will consider it for this purpose and not for that

21 purpose." We have an appellate presumption that jurors

22 follow their instructions.

23 That aside, we also have non-jury proceedings on a

24 fairly regular basis, and in these non-jury proceedings

25 we use the same Rules of Evidence that we do when

Page 4455

1 there's a jury sitting there. The only difference is

2 that instead of having 12 people sitting in a corner, we

3 have one judge sitting on a bench. The prosecution

4 seems to be taking the position that because we have

5 three judges rather than 12 jurors that we don't need

6 any Rules of Evidence.

7 I think the Tribunal has taken a rather different

8 position in the Rules of Procedure and Evidence that we

9 do need some kinds of Rules of Evidence, that there is

10 no reason why, if the Prosecutor thinks this man has

11 been impeached on one specific area, they can say:

12 "Well, didn't you make a prior consistent statement, a

13 prior statement that's consistent with what you said

14 today? Didn't you tell Mr. McLeod this?" If they think

15 that will rehabilitate him, that's fine with me. I

16 don't have a problem with that.

17 What I have a problem with is taking a document

18 that that man sitting in the witness stand says is an

19 unreliable document, and it's full of things that he

20 hasn't talked about up here, so that the prosecution can

21 get in front of the Trial Chamber things that they could

22 not get out of their own witness, things that either

23 aren't relevant or maybe are relevant but they never

24 even attempted to get them out. They very easily could

25 be things that the Prosecutor thinks are unreliable

Page 4456

1 themselves or untrue.

2 JUDGE JAN: You see, we have a problem. We find we have

3 to determine how far your attempted impeachment of the

4 witness is successful. Unless we have the original

5 statement before us and also the statement which is made

6 before the court, how can we give any decision on that?

7 MR. MORAN: Your Honour --

8 JUDGE JAN: That is why I say for the purpose of

9 impeachment we should have the statement.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We will hear Mr. Greaves.

11 MR. GREAVES: I will be as quick as I can.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I should say everything goes back to

13 you.

14 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour is most kind. Without conceding

15 the generality you have placed and my opposition to

16 learned friend's application, if the conclusion you came

17 to was you ought to see the statement for the purposes

18 only of impeachment, I would go on to submit this: you

19 would only be entitled to have the passages upon which

20 the cross-examination has taken place, because those

21 other passages upon which cross-examination have not

22 taken place have had no part in the case at all.

23 JUDGE JAN: We have to look at the entire statement and

24 read the particular portions in the entire context of

25 the document, not particularly that you cut out a few

Page 4457

1 sentences and say: "This is what he means."

2 MR. GREAVES: There is a degree of context to be

3 considered. Then let us say the man goes on to a

4 completely different incident that has no bearing on the

5 matters cross-examined about, you ought not to see that.

6 JUDGE JAN: It is not substantive evidence in that sense.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let me explain a little bit.

8 Mr. Moran.

9 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Whichever way you look at it, whether

11 the evidence is reliable or relevant is determined by

12 the Trial Chamber. It is a Trial Chamber. You might

13 have your own views about it, but when the Trial Chamber

14 considers a statement before it and the subject matter

15 in respect of which it is considering that statement,

16 whether that statement is relevant and in view of what

17 we are considering, whether it is reliable depends on

18 how we look at it as a whole. So it's not enough for

19 you -- perhaps in preparing your case you might exclude

20 it as not relevant, but somebody else might not think

21 so. Somebody else might think it is relevant. But we

22 decide, taking everything together, whether a particular

23 thing is relevant and reliable.

24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would completely agree that I'm

25 an advocate and you're not. You, being the Trial

Page 4458

1 Chamber, have the -- the obligation is to sort out these

2 disputes between the parties. With that I very well

3 understand that, and the Trial Chamber is well aware of

4 my position and --

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We do. This is a Chamber which

6 determines justice between the two parties. Nobody has

7 to suffer merely because of ignorance of any of us.

8 Perhaps if we are ignorant, a higher chamber might

9 decide that, but definitely in this respect we think we

10 could not allow a yawning gap that exists unless those

11 statements which are necessary to inform us to accept

12 what was said or not is in evidence. So we are not

13 considering everything said in that statement, but those

14 areas which affect the evidence given. Those are the

15 things that concern us. In that regard we are entitled

16 to accept the statement for the purpose. So we admit

17 it.

18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, admit it just for that limited

19 purpose.


21 MR. MORAN: Of impeachment and not as substantive evidence.


23 MR. MORAN: I just wanted to make sure the record is clear

24 on that, your Honour.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think that is the purpose. It

Page 4459

1 wasn't being challenged that that was not his

2 evidence. Nobody has challenged that, but there are

3 areas which are in conflict with what he said before

4 us.

5 Yes, Ms Residovic?

6 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I take it

7 that you have not passed the Ruling until you hear all

8 of our arguments. I have tried a number of times to

9 take the floor, but my colleagues were quicker than

10 me.

11 I know that the Trial Chamber will take as the

12 basis the testimony of this witness uttered before this

13 Trial Chamber, but to admit a seven-page statement

14 mentioning events and facts which were not the subject

15 of the main examination, nor of the cross-examination,

16 without limiting the text to only those questions which

17 were referred to in this Trial Chamber and which were

18 the subject of both the examination-in-chief and the

19 cross-examination would mean improper offering of

20 evidence to this trial Chamber, and I think no Trial

21 Chamber, and especially not this one, could accept it.

22 The basis of the decision of Mr. Delalic's defence

23 not to do any cross-examination was based on the

24 statement made by this witness in the Trial Chamber. I

25 don't know whether our defence counsel would have made

Page 4460

1 the same defence if the Prosecutor had offered the

2 statement during the examination-in-chief, nor during

3 the cross-examination. That is why I propose that this

4 statement should be limited to the number of pages

5 covering the issues which were raised in the course of

6 the examination-in-chief and cross-examination, in other

7 words that it be redacted in such a way, and only then,

8 after it has been redacted, can it be admitted for the

9 reasons you have given. If there is any intention to

10 offer as evidence something that was not discussed in

11 this courtroom, because the Prosecutor failed to raise

12 those issues before the court in any other way, then I

13 think we are entitled to additional cross-examination.

14 That is why I think, according to any law, and in the

15 interests of justice, this statement that is being

16 tendered as evidence needs to be redacted for the

17 reasons I have given.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I have outlined the principles under

19 which we are admitting the statement. Apart from that,

20 it is not only to have irrelevancies in

21 cross-examination which are part of the record. So if

22 there are irrelevance seems -- in the statement, which

23 have nothing to do with the purpose for which it is

24 being admitted -- it will not be taken into

25 consideration at all. It is our duty to be of service

Page 4461

1 and fair to everyone who is concerned here and not to

2 remove any particular matters merely because a

3 particular counsel doesn't like it that way. I think

4 that would be unfair even to the counsel and to the

5 other persons concerned. We will admit it for the

6 purpose for which it has been submitted. That is for

7 contradictory statements which appear before the Trial

8 Chamber.

9 Now what is the number of this exhibit?

10 THE REGISTRAR: It is number 153.

11 MR. TURONE: We have no other questions for re-examination,

12 your Honour. Thank you.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think that's all you have for the

14 witness.

15 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. Just before you decide how

16 to handle the next witness, I have one small point to

17 make that may affect your consideration.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Still with this witness?

19 MS. McHENRY: No, not for this witness.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The witness is discharged and he can

21 now go away. He can go.

22 (Witness withdrew from court)

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think what we have before us here,

24 is this a motion for protective measures for witness B?

25 Is that what you want to speak about.

Page 4462







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17 (4.50 pm)

18 (Hearing adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning)

19 --ooOoo--