Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

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     1                                          Friday, 18th July 1997

     2      (10.00 am)

     3                           Witness D ( continued)

     4                       Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic

     5      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

     6          Can we have the appearances now?

     7      MS. McHENRY:   For the Prosecution I am Teresa McHenry, here

     8          with co-counsel Mr. Giuliano Turone and our case manager,

     9          Ms. Elles van Dusschoten.   Thank you.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   The Defence?

    11      MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation):   Good morning, your

    12          Honour.   I am Edina Residovic, Defence Counsel for

    13          Mr. Zejnil Delalic.   Defending Mr. Delalic with me is

    14          colleague Eugene O'Sullivan, Professor from Canada.

    15      MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation):   Good morning, your

    16          Honours.   I am Zeljko Olujic, attorney from Croatia,

    17          Defence Counsel for Mr. Zdravko Mucic.   Co-defending is

    18          my colleague, Mr. Michael Greaves, attorney from Great

    19          Britain and Northern Ireland.

    20      MR. KARABDIC (in interpretation):  Good morning, your

    21          Honours, I am Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo,

    22          Defence Counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic, with co-counsel,

    23          Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston, Texas.

    24      MR. ACKERMAN:   Good morning, your Honours.   On behalf of

    25          the defendant Esad Landzo we have John Ackerman and

Page 5332

     1          Cynthia McMurrey.   Thank you.

     2      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Ms. Residovic, before you start, I am

     3          sorry I cut you short in the middle of your sentence

     4          yesterday when we were breaking.   So I apologise for

     5          that:  we are in open session now.   What is your

     6          suggestion?  We remain in open session?

     7      MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation):   Good morning, your

     8          Honours.   Once again I think it is simpler for all of

     9          us if we go into private session.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Thank you very much.   Let's go into

    11          private session.

    12                          (In closed session)

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    23                           (In open session).

    24      MR. MORAN:   I believe we are in public session now, judge.

    25          The first thing I would like to ask you about is the

Page 5365

     1          competency of the Commission, the jurisdiction of the

     2          Commission.   As I understand it, what the job of the

     3          Commission was to do was to interview the people that

     4          had been arrested or detained from places like Bradina,

     5          Donje Selo and who were suspected of committing crimes,

     6          to place them into some sort of categories and decide

     7          whether or not these people should be released or their

     8          incarceration continue.   Is that a fair assessment of

     9          what the competency of your Commission was?

    10      A.  Not quite correctly, because you said that the

    11          Commission decided.   A good portion of what you said in

    12          your question is correct, but we've had quite a bit of

    13          discussion about that here.   What was then done was

    14          open.   It wasn't decided who had the authority to

    15          decide on the release of prisoners.   The Commission

    16          just proposed the classification of prisoners into

    17          categories.

    18      Q.  And so what you did was you prepared reports on each

    19          prisoner and forwarded them to, what, the HVO

    20          headquarters for further action?  Is that correct?

    21      A.  That is what was said yesterday.   We said that no

    22          report was made for each individual prisoner.   We made

    23          a collective report containing incriminations.

    24      Q.  Okay.   So what you're saying is that you prepared a

    25          report showing evidence incriminating people who were

Page 5366

     1          detained, evidence that showed they had committed

     2          crimes, but you didn't prepare a report showing who had

     3          not committed crimes, or where there was no evidence

     4          that they committed crimes.   Is that what you just

     5          said, sir?  Did I understand that correctly?

     6      A.  Yes.  There was no report for those for whom nothing was

     7          established.   The very classification into categories

     8          and the formation of a list could be considered a

     9          report.

    10      Q.  So if someone were incarcerated in the camp and they

    11          were interviewed by your Commission and your Commission,

    12          based on whatever evidence you had, determined that they

    13          were just as pure as the driven snow, you didn't do

    14          anything to get them released?

    15      A.  The persons for whom nothing was found, after

    16          interviewing them, they were put into the last

    17          categories and the Commission through Zovko that we have

    18          mentioned, and Mr. Mucic was there, too, I think Zovko

    19          communicated with him over these things.   Somebody

    20          needed to take a decision, to look at this paper, and to

    21          pass a decision and to issue papers.

    22      Q.  Okay.   Let me back up a couple of steps; okay?  There

    23          were in round numbers about 200 people, 250 people

    24          incarcerated in the prison at Celebici, right, in round

    25          numbers, maybe more, maybe less.   Is that a fair

Page 5367

     1          assessment?

     2      A.  I don't know.   I cannot give an assessment.

     3      Q.  Okay.   There were some number of people incarcerated in

     4          the prison in Celebici; right?

     5      A.  Yes.

     6      Q.  And those people had been arrested by HVO, TO, maybe

     7          MUP, some place other than at the prison; right?

     8      A.  I don't quite understand the question.

     9      Q.  Okay.   The people that were -- the guards and the staff

    10          at the prison weren't the people that arrested these

    11          people that were incarcerated; is that correct?  They

    12          were arrested some place else?

    13      A.  Yes.  We were talking about that yesterday.   I don't

    14          know, because I didn't participate in that, nor did

    15          anybody say when and where and how many people had been

    16          brought in from the area of combat operations or in

    17          their vicinity, but I assume it must have been the units

    18          in the field or MUP.   What do I know who did it?

    19      Q.  Surely when you interviewed someone and other members of

    20          the Commission questioned these detainees one of the

    21          questions you asked was: "When were you arrested and

    22          where?"  Right?  That would be a logical question,

    23          wouldn't it?

    24      A.  Yes, it was a question, but you had asked me generally

    25          who had arrested the people and detained them and

Page 5368

     1          brought them to the camp.

     2      Q.  I'm just trying to get -- it wasn't anybody working at

     3          the camp, was it?  It wasn't you; it wasn't the members

     4          of your commission; it wasn't the guards; it wasn't the

     5          other people at the camp.   Those were not the people

     6          that arrested them; right?  They were arrested some

     7          place else by somebody else; right?

     8      A.  Yes.

     9      Q.  Okay.   That's what I was trying to get at.   Then they

    10          were brought to prison, just like when a police officer

    11          in The Hague arrests somebody for drunk driving.   The

    12          police officer takes them to a jail and he gives them to

    13          a jailer; right?  Same kind of thing; right?

    14      A.  Yes.

    15      Q.  Okay.   That jailer doesn't conduct any kind of a

    16          hearing to determine whether there was sufficient

    17          evidence to arrest this person, does he?

    18      A.  Yes.  That is the rule, but when these people were

    19          brought in, who decided to bring them in or not I don't

    20          know.

    21      Q.  Okay.   What I'm getting at is if, for instance, a

    22          police officer in -- pick a city in the former

    23          Yugoslavia -- Belgrade, arrests someone for whatever

    24          reason this police officer arrests him and transports

    25          this prisoner to a place where the prisoner is

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     1          incarcerated, all that that jailer does is just lock the

     2          person up.   He doesn't conduct a separate investigation

     3          into the legality of that arrest, does he?

     4      A.  The person who carries out the arrest and detention is

     5          obliged to report why a person was arrested, and if he

     6          has any evidence, to commit the evidence as well.

     7      Q.  Yes, but he submits that to somebody other than a

     8          jailer, doesn't he?  He submits it to a judge or his

     9          superiors in the Police Department, not the turnkey at

    10          the jail; right?

    11      A.  In our specific case this could have been handed to the

    12          management of the prison, if there was no commission.

    13      Q.  But there was a commission, wasn't there?

    14      A.  If the arrest occurs when the Commission was not there,

    15          when it's not working, because the working hours were

    16          from 8.00 to 5.00, 6.00.

    17      Q.  In fact, this Commission was a legally constituted

    18          Commission that had the competency of determining facts

    19          about whether people should be incarcerated; isn't that

    20          correct?  Your commission, that was your job?

    21      A.  I have already explained that.

    22      Q.  And then once the Commission gathered these facts, you

    23          submitted it to somebody who would make the final

    24          decision on whether or not these people should be

    25          retained in custody or released; isn't that right?

Page 5370

     1      A.  Yes.

     2      Q.  And, in fact, when you found someone that was not guilty

     3          or there was no evidence that he was guilty of anything,

     4          you didn't let that person go, did you?

     5      A.  As far as I know, no-one in the Commission was

     6          authorised to release anyone from prison.

     7      Q.  So if you interviewed or one of your colleagues on the

     8          Commission interviewed detainee X and you looked at all

     9          of the evidence that was available from all the sources

    10          you could draw on, and there is absolutely no evidence

    11          that detainee X had done anything or constituted any

    12          danger to the state, you'd leave him in custody and

    13          recommend to someone else that he would be released;

    14          right?  Is that a fair assessment?

    15      A.  I spoke yesterday about the case of Stanojevic and

    16          another professor, about whom it was clearly established

    17          there was no reason to hold them any more and we told

    18          Mr. Mucic there was no grounds for arresting him.   The

    19          Commission found no evidence.   There was no reason to

    20          keep him and nevertheless they were still held in

    21          detention.

    22      Q.  I thought that was because you said you didn't have the

    23          authority to make the final decision; that someone else

    24          made that?  Isn't that what you said not ten minutes

    25          ago?

Page 5371

     1      A.  Yes.  Somebody else took the decision.   Who?  Mucic

     2          said that it was the Commander Zejnil who had to decide

     3          about the release of prisoners.   Whom would he tell,

     4          who would sign, how it would be done I don't know.   He

     5          would say, when the lists were made, that he would show

     6          those lists.   Whether he did carry them there or not I

     7          don't know.   I had no feed-back information.  Whether

     8          he spoke to Mr. Zovko or not I don't know.

     9      Q.  Okay.   By the way, everybody that was detained in the

    10          camp that you had any dealings with -- I notice you're

    11          looking at the watch.   I'll try and move this along for

    12          you.   As far as you know, everybody who was detained at

    13          the camp was a citizen of the Republic of

    14          Bosnia-Herzegovina, weren't they?

    15      A.  Yes.  As far as I know, they were all citizens of

    16          Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    17      Q.  Now, aside from interviewing these people that were

    18          detained, did your Commission have any other competence

    19          or any other jurisdiction as to the operations of the

    20          camp?  Were you in charge of food or conditions for the

    21          prisoners or did your Commission have any say in that at

    22          all?

    23      A.  No.

    24      Q.  Well, remember in your statement, the statement you gave

    25          in -- I believe it was May 24th, 1996, the first

Page 5372

     1          statement, you were talking about Kelko (sic), the death

     2          of Kelko?  Remember that?  Remember when you were

     3          talking about that?

     4      MS. McHENRY:   Keljo, if it helps.

     5      MR. MORAN:   I'm sorry.   Keljo.

     6      A.  I think that the investigator asked me: "What happened

     7          to Keljo next?"  I think I said I don't know but that

     8          later when I had given you working in the Commission

     9          I heard.

    10      Q.  So you do remember that incident; right?  That was the

    11          question I asked, whether you remembered it?

    12      A.  Yes.

    13      Q.  One of the things you said in your statement was:

    14                "The Commission was not allowed to investigate

    15          this incident.   One member of the Commission asked

    16          someone -- I don't know whom -- about more details about

    17          this incident but was told that somebody else was taking

    18          care of it".

    19                Do you remember saying that in your written

    20          statement?

    21      A.  I do.

    22      Q.  Well, if the competence of your Commission did not

    23          include running the camp or the conditions in the camp

    24          or overseeing the conditions in the camp, then why would

    25          it be surprised or why would it be unusual for your

Page 5373

     1          Commission not to be asked to investigate this?

     2      A.  It was quite logical for us to investigate such a

     3          situation, such an incident.

     4      Q.  Well, I thought you told me that the jurisdiction of

     5          your Commission was simply to look at evidence and

     6          determine what categories various prisoners ought to be

     7          placed in?  Isn't that what you told me?  Isn't that

     8          what you told the judges?

     9      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Have you tried to delineate the

    10          jurisdiction or the competence of the Commission.

    11      MR. MORAN:   Your Honour, I thought that I had asked him

    12          that.

    13      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   There is no question directed at

    14          defining the competence.   You asked him what the scope

    15          of what they could do with respect to prisoners who were

    16          brought there but not the general competence of the

    17          Commission.

    18      MR. MORAN:   Okay.   What was the competence of your

    19          Commission?  What was the jurisdiction of your

    20          Commission?

    21      A.  I said that, but if I had it in writing by whoever it

    22          was who set up the Commission, it would be easier to

    23          discuss it, but what I was told orally was what my task

    24          was, and the other members of Commission, too, was to do

    25          what we have been talking about all this time, and I see

Page 5374

     1          no need for us to waste any more time about it.

     2      Q.  Okay.   One of the other things you did as an analyst

     3          was just general intelligence gathering; isn't that

     4          right?

     5      A.  These were information data collected from statements,

     6          some reports from the field, if there were any, by

     7          people who had arrested those persons, or any other

     8          documents that may have been found later when checking

     9          the statements and the information obtained in

    10          communication with the detainees.

    11      Q.  Okay.   So your Commission's jurisdiction did not

    12          include the conditions in the camp -- or did it?  Did it

    13          include conditions in the camp, how the prisoners were

    14          treated, did they get medical care?  Did it or didn't

    15          it?

    16      A.  I think I've explained this several times to the best of

    17          my knowledge.

    18      Q.  Then, sir, I still want to know if your jurisdiction did

    19          not include anything about the operations of the camp,

    20          why would it be surprising or shocking to anyone that

    21          your Commission was not invited to investigate a death

    22          in the camp?

    23      A.  I said that it would have been logical for each case of

    24          a detainee suffering any kind of injuries, it would have

    25          been logical for the investigating commission to

Page 5375

     1          establish the facts, but this did not happen.

     2      Q.  Well, I thought that was outside your jurisdiction?

     3      MS. McHENRY:   Objection.   Asked and answered.

     4      MR. MORAN:   Your Honour, he is saying that his jurisdiction

     5          is one thing and it is not surprising that he not be

     6          allowed to investigate outside his competence and

     7          jurisdiction and I just want to get the two statements

     8          -- see if he can make them work together.

     9      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   I didn't understand him to have said

    10          that.   All he was saying is it was not in writing and

    11          his discussions which he made has not enabled him to

    12          know exactly his scope.   I think that's what he said.

    13          I think we will break here and you can continue when we

    14          come back.

    15      MR. MORAN:   Thank you, your Honour.

    16      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   We will come back at 12 o'clock.

    17      (11.35 am)

    18                              (Short break)

    19      (12.00)

    20      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Yes, you can continue.

    21      MR. MORAN:   May it please the court?  I am going to mention

    22          one name.   I don't recall whether this is a name we

    23          have been protecting or not.   If we could go into

    24          private session just long enough for me to say the

    25          name.

Page 5376

     1      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Let's go into private session.

     2                          (In closed session)

     3    (redacted)

     4    (redacted)

     5    (redacted)

     6    (redacted)

     7    (redacted)

     8    (redacted)

     9    (redacted)

    10    (redacted)

    11    (redacted)

    12                            (In open session).

    13      Q.  Sir, that man I just named in private session, who was

    14          his job during the war?

    15      A.  During the war I don't know what his job was, except for

    16          what I heard.   This was at the very beginning in the

    17          Commission.   I don't know about anything else.

    18      Q.  So he was a member of the Commission?

    19      A.  I guess.   I never read anything to that effect.   He --

    20          in fact, some people even said that since there is no --

    21          this person, we don't have the chief of the Commission.

    22      Q.  In fact, the report that you signed and you remember you

    23          adopted by signing it after you found it in the HVO

    24          archives, that says that he was the Chairman of the

    25          Commission, but he was injured in a traffic accident.

Page 5377

     1          That's the statement adopted, isn't it?

     2      A.  And that's what I said now, that in the Commission --

     3          this was discussed in the Commission and then this is

     4          what was also put in the report.

     5      Q.  Okay.   Did you know, of course, that on at least one

     6          occasion on his own he released 16 people from the

     7          Celebici prison?  You know that, don't you?

     8      A.  I wasn't there at that time.

     9      Q.  Okay.   That's fine.  That's fair enough.   Sir, as

    10          I recall on your direct examination, and it may have

    11          been yesterday or it may have been Wednesday, and let me

    12          make sure I recall it correctly, that you testified that

    13          no-one was mistreated during their interrogations by the

    14          Commission.   Isn't that right?

    15      A.  I said that I never heard of such a case or seen it.

    16      Q.  So far as you know, no-one was ever mistreated during an

    17          interrogation by a Commission?

    18      A.  Yes.

    19      Q.  And from the time you were appointed to be a member of

    20          the Commission until the Commission ceased its

    21          operations, you were there in the camp every minute

    22          these interrogations were going on; right?

    23      A.  I was.

    24      Q.  And I also recall you testifying on direct, and this is

    25          my recollection -- if I'm wrong, correct me; okay --

Page 5378

     1          that on one occasion Hazim Delic brought a person in to

     2          be interrogated and that person's hands were tied behind

     3          his back and you told Mr. Delic that you didn't ever want

     4          that to happen, that the person should -- if they were

     5          tied up, they couldn't concentrate on what was going on

     6          during the interrogation.   Do you remember testifying

     7          to that?

     8      A.  Yes.  I spoke something in that sense and there were

     9          some other Commission members, Stenek or somebody else,

    10          who also conducted discussions.

    11      Q.  So it was made real clear to the people -- the guards at

    12          the camp and the staff at the camp that the prisoners

    13          were not to have their hands tied during the

    14          interrogations; right?

    15      A.  Whether the guards were told, but Delic was told.

    16          Whether Delic then passed it on to the guards, that I

    17          don't know.

    18      Q.  But what I'm getting at is people didn't have their

    19          hands tied during the interrogations, right, because the

    20          Commission didn't want it that way; right?

    21      A.  What I said is that after that I never saw it again.

    22      Q.  Okay.   The first time you saw it occurring, you put a

    23          stop to it; right?

    24      A.  That was not the first time.   I saw that I had seen it

    25          outside and I was in a position to say it at that

Page 5379

     1          time.   There were others there, but I was in a position

     2          to say this.

     3      Q.  I'm talking not about while the people are outside

     4          waiting to be brought in but actually during the

     5          interrogations themselves, while the Commission is

     6          interrogating these prisoners, that the first time you

     7          saw it, you put a stop to it; right?

     8      A.  Yes.  That is correct.   Yes.

     9      Q.  And the reason you did that was because you couldn't

    10          interrogate them well if they were tied up; right?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      Q.  So if somebody said that they were interrogated or

    13          mistreated during an interrogation, or if their hands

    14          were tied during an interrogation, either that didn't

    15          happen or had to happen before you got there; right?

    16      A.  I did not see and in the ones that I did take part,

    17          there was no mistreatment.   I did not mistreat anybody

    18          or something like that.

    19      Q.  Nobody is accusing you of mistreating anybody, sir.

    20          What I'm asking you is if somebody said there was

    21          mistreatment of prisoners or prisoners were interrogated

    22          with their hands tied behind their back, that had to

    23          have happened before you got that; right?

    24      A.  I don't know when this could happen.   I don't know if

    25          it would be at times when I would not watch.   I did not

Page 5380

     1          see everything.   I only talked about things that

     2          I saw.   I cannot talk about other things.

     3      Q.  Okay, but you just said that -- I thought you just told

     4          us a few minutes ago that the first time you saw people

     5          being interrogated with their hands tied behind their

     6          backs, you put a stop to it?

     7      A.  Yes.  I reacted at that time.

     8      Q.  Okay.   So what I'm trying to get at is if someone said

     9          that prisoners were abused during interrogations or that

    10          they were interrogated with their hands tied behind

    11          their back, either that person is mistaken, not telling

    12          the truth or it happened before you got to the camp.

    13          That is correct; right?

    14      MS. McHENRY:   Objection.   I think that's asked and answered

    15          and he says that even after he was there, he did not see

    16          every interrogation.   I think that has been asked and

    17          answered several times.

    18      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Actually if you counted how many times

    19          you formulated that, this is your third time.

    20      MR. MORAN:   Yes, your Honour.

    21      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   I don't see the point.   He has been

    22          answering it each time.

    23      MR. MORAN:   Sir, you testified on direct again on Bajram --

    24          I presume it was Lesser Bajram because of the dates --

    25          you went into the mess hall in the administration

Page 5381

     1          building, and you saw Hazim Delic eating something and

     2          he didn't invite you to join him; right?  Do you

     3          remember testifying about that?

     4      A.  That's not the way I said it.

     5      Q.  That was the long and the short of what you said,

     6          though, wasn't it?

     7      A.  I wouldn't say so.

     8      Q.  Okay.   What would you say in the Reader's Digest

     9          version, a short version?

    10      A.  This was just an aside, a digression.   I forget the

    11          context in which I said that yesterday.   I don't know

    12          that I said that I found Mr. Hazim eating there.   I said

    13          that Hazim said that there was nothing there for me to

    14          eat, but I did not say that this was a direct

    15          communication between Hazim and me.

    16      Q.  Okay.   So basically what Hazim could have meant is he

    17          just didn't want to eat lunch with you; right?

    18      A.  I don't know what he wanted.

    19      Q.  Okay.   There were HVO military police stationed at the

    20          camp at Celebici, weren't there, while you were there?

    21      A.  Can you please repeat this question?  Are you referring

    22          to the military police?

    23      Q.  Sure.   Yes.  There were units that were living on

    24          Celebici barracks compound that weren't involved with

    25          the prison; right?

Page 5382

     1      A.  I don't know that.   I never saw these units.

     2      Q.  Okay.   Did you see any military police in the camp

     3          while you were there?

     4      A.  Maybe in a few cases I saw some military policemen.

     5          Once they were going up to search the terrain based on

     6          the information that we provided from our

     7          investigation.  They came to get more precise

     8          information.   There was Mr. Mucic, Mr. Delic, Mr. Zovko.

     9          They did not talk to me.   They just took the

    10          information that they needed and they went away.

    11          That's all I saw and I cannot speak to anything else in

    12          that regard.

    13      Q.  Okay.   In the course of your investigations in the

    14          Commission did you conduct an analysis to determine

    15          about how many weapons were in the hands of people that

    16          weren't authorised to have them and where they got them?

    17      A.  I spoke about that as much as I knew.   Nobody had a

    18          permit to carry military weapons like infantry weapons,

    19          rifles, automatic rifles.   All this was without

    20          permits.   The report was made about what weapons were

    21          gathered, how the weapons were brought into the area,

    22          how it was distributed around, who was armed and things

    23          like that.

    24      Q.  Sir, if you recall, how did the weapons get into the

    25          area?  From your investigation what did you determine?

Page 5383

     1      A.  This was written down and I spoke about that yesterday.

     2      Q.  Jog my memory, sir.   Who brought the weapons into the

     3          area?

     4      A.  Yesterday looking at the document that was given me,

     5          I said that we confirmed and documents that the arms

     6          were brought into the Bradina area and wider area.   For

     7          instance, it was Zara Mrkajic.   Then it was Strahinja,

     8          who was never in the camp, who had escaped before.

     9          These weapons were brought from the resources of the

    10          JNA.

    11      Q.  Okay.   Was there any organised group that brought these

    12          from the resource of the JNA or was it just these people

    13          working as individuals?

    14      A.  That was the purpose of the Commission, to document this

    15          and to discover the individual names of the persons who

    16          did this, and we could glean that it was organised work,

    17          but we had to see how widespread this organisation was,

    18          and how high up it was linked.

    19      Q.  How widespread was it, sir?  How widespread was this

    20          organisation that was bringing in these illegal weapons?

    21      A.  I did not say that we determined what the organisation

    22          was, but it did -- but there was one.

    23      Q.  But you said one of your jobs was to determine how

    24          widespread.   I take it from your answer that you were

    25          unable to determine that; is that correct?

Page 5384

     1      A.  Yes.  We did not finish the job.

     2      Q.  Okay.   That's fine.   Did you arrive in your

     3          investigation at an estimate of about how many of these

     4          illegal military weapons were distributed?

     5      A.  An estimate could have been given but on this phase of

     6          our work it was not done.   There was an approximation,

     7          but not sort of the general conclusive estimate.

     8      Q.  What was that approximation, sir?  Based on your

     9          investigation, approximately how many of these illegal

    10          weapons were distributed in the Konjic area, and I know

    11          you don't have an exact number, but just an estimate,

    12          that approximation that you were talking about that

    13          you'd arrived at?

    14      A.  I cannot say that, and you put it well, but from what

    15          I had, I saw that especially in Bradina, Brdjani, Donje

    16          Selo, and especially Bradina, to exclude Borci and Borci

    17          Lake, almost every military aged man had a piece of

    18          infantry weapon.   Besides there were mortars brought in

    19          there, sub-machine guns, anti-aircraft machine guns, a

    20          large number of shells, things like that.

    21      Q.  I know this is going to sound like a foolish question

    22          but I'll just go ahead and ask it anyway.   It was

    23          against the law to have that kind of stuff, wasn't it?

    24      A.  The war started illegally too.

    25      Q.  In fact, having that kind of equipment is the kind of

Page 5385

     1          thing that can get you thrown in jail, isn't it?

     2      A.  We started a war and had it not been the war, definitely

     3          they would be in jail.

     4      Q.  Judge, if I could have about 30 seconds or so to flip

     5          through my notes, I think I'm done, but I just want one

     6          last chance to flip through my notes.

     7      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Yes.  (Pause).

     8      MR. MORAN:   In fact, one of the jobs -- let me just ask you

     9          one -- I think this may be it.   One of the jobs of the

    10          Commission, okay, was to determine whether holding these

    11          people in confinement was necessary for the security --

    12          in fact, absolutely necessary for the security of the

    13          Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  That was one of your

    14          jobs, wasn't it?

    15      A.  As far as I remember, when we discussed this issue, in

    16          parts of the Commission some persons and myself included

    17          said that -- and I don't know what I was proposing at

    18          that time -- at the staff commander or some level --

    19          that those would -- should be released with the proviso

    20          that they should regularly report to the police bodies,

    21          and that these police bodies should be either reinforced

    22          where they were or established where they were not in

    23          the areas where these people were being released.

    24      Q.  So one of the jobs of the Commission was to decide if

    25          there were some people that it was absolutely necessary

Page 5386

     1          for the security of the State to keep them in

     2          confinement and then to determine if there were others

     3          that could be released with conditions on their

     4          release.   They may have to live in a certain place,

     5          those kinds of things.   That was one of the jobs of

     6          your Commission; right?

     7      A.  We didn't do that, because nobody said, and it should

     8          have been organised that way, as far as I was concerned,

     9          but it wasn't my duty to organise things in this way.

    10      Q.  You just mentioned organisation and I wasn't going to

    11          mention it, but since you did, let me go into this just

    12          a bit, not just in the camp and not just with the

    13          Commission.   I am talking about the broader picture in

    14          the Konjic area in May, June, July 1992; okay?  You were

    15          there most of that time.   The governmental military

    16          situation was pretty unorganised, wasn't it?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  And nobody was quite sure about anything, about what the

    19          organisation was, what the HVO was supposed to do, what

    20          the TO was supposed to do?  There was problems

    21          communicating with Sarajevo to get orders from the

    22          higher military commanders.   All these were problems;

    23          right?

    24      A.  Yes, problems.

    25      Q.  Okay.   Your Honour, I pass the witness.   Thank you

Page 5387

     1          very much.

     2      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Thank you very much.

     3                      Cross-examination by Mr. Greaves

     4      MR. GREAVES:   Your Honour, I have got some questions that

     5          I think touch upon this man's career, so I imagine that

     6          your Honours would wish to have the first part of my

     7          cross-examination in private session.

     8      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Yes.  We'll go into private session.

     9                            (In closed session)

    10   (redacted)

    11   (redacted)

    12   (redacted)

    13   (redacted)

    14   (redacted)

    15   (redacted)

    16   (redacted)

    17   (redacted)

    18   (redacted)

    19   (redacted)

    20   (redacted)

    21   (redacted)

    22   (redacted)

    23   (redacted)

    24   (redacted)

    25   (redacted)

Page 5388














    14   pages 5388 to 5397 redacted - in closed session












Page 5398

     1  (redacted)

     2  (redacted)

     3  (redacted)

     4  (redacted)

     5  (redacted)

     6  (redacted)

     7  (redacted)

     8                             (In open session)

     9      MR. GREAVES:  Thank you very much.   Mr. D, I would like now

    10          to turn to the investigations that you were carrying out

    11          as part of this Commission.   You told us yesterday that

    12          you compiled a report on behalf of the Commission and

    13          you gave us a description of the nature of that

    14          report.   If I can remind you what you told us, you

    15          said:

    16                "I'm not going to go at any length into it but it

    17          was as follows:  these people, those Serbs in the area

    18          of Bradina and wider in the area of Konjic, were arming

    19          themselves; where did the weapons come from; who was

    20          giving it to them; what type of weapons; when it was

    21          transported to Bradina and other locations around

    22          Konjic; how it was distributed; to whom it was

    23          distributed; and who were the persons from the Konjic

    24          area who took part in this.

    25                Secondly, it is the feeling of the Commission that

Page 5399

     1          criminal charges could be filed against those persons

     2          for inciting armed rebellion pursuant to the laws of the

     3          former Yugoslavia.   This is all that was incumbent upon

     4          us to decide".

     5                Do you remember giving that evidence yesterday,

     6          Mr. D?  That was the real purpose of your Commission,

     7          wasn't it, to gather military intelligence?

     8      A.  Yes.  That is how we worked at the time.

     9      Q.  The information about the distribution of arms and to

    10          whom it was linked and who the people in Konjic area who

    11          took part in that, that wasn't going to help you decide

    12          the categories of people who could be released, was it?

    13      A.  Yes, it was helpful.   That was the most important

    14          thing.   I explained that.

    15      Q.  But there was no report you say prepared in respect of

    16          those who had done nothing or who had had no arms?

    17      A.  I said that according to the categorisation if on each

    18          file, whatever you like to call it, a dossier, if a

    19          first, third, fourth, fifth or whatever category was

    20          indicated on the file, then those files were piled up

    21          according to category.   Then a list would be made of

    22          those in the first category, then a list of those in the

    23          sixth category, shall we say, as an example, then you

    24          would see the definition of that category and read the

    25          list of names in that category.   Then whoever was

Page 5400

     1          authorised to say the people in the sixth category may

     2          be released or upon their release one could say that

     3          they should report to the competent police body, that

     4          person could do that on this basis.

     5      Q.  Who was the mediator?  Don't tell us a name.   Just

     6          describe the job of the mediator that you described you

     7          dealing with yesterday.   Do you remember doing that?

     8      A.  There was no such function.   I explained it

     9          yesterday.   He had no other function.   I don't even

    10          know who were the members that proposed that he should

    11          be that person, and we agreed.   It wasn't a special

    12          assignment for which we elected somebody or appointed

    13          somebody, or determined in any other way.

    14      Q.  So who was the information being given to?

    15      A.  I don't know who they were given to, nor was it up to me

    16          to give them, and I don't know to whom they were

    17          given.   When Mr. Delalic spoke to us, every information

    18          should be conveyed to him or rather the TO and HVO

    19          headquarters.   That was how I imagined it at the

    20          time.   Whether the person who was supposed to carry

    21          that information there did so, I don't know.

    22      Q.  So to whom did this man you describe as the mediator, to

    23          whom did he belong?  Was he a policeman, a military man,

    24          what?

    25      A.  A policeman.   He worked in the police.

Page 5401

     1      Q.  Military or civil police?

     2      A.  It was stated that they all belonged to MUP.

     3      Q.  Yesterday you told us when you were being asked

     4          questions by Ms. Residovic that a document you were just

     5          asked to look at you had seen the previous day.   Can

     6          you tell us where it was you'd seen that document?

     7      A.  Sorry, which document?

     8      Q.  I can't recall the exact number of it but you told us,

     9          I think yesterday, that you'd seen a document the

    10          previous day.   Do you remember saying that?  If you

    11          can't remember, it doesn't matter?

    12      A.  I don't know what document you are referring to.

    13      Q.  All right.   I want now to turn, please, if we may, to

    14          the break-down of the Commission.   It's right, isn't

    15          it, that the break-down of your Commission coincided

    16          with the break-down of relations between the HVO and the

    17          TO?

    18      A.  That is the first I hear of it.

    19      Q.  So you were completely unaware, were you, at any time

    20          towards the end of June or early July of any stresses

    21          and strains in relationships between the TO and the HVO?

    22      A.  I could feel the strains in the field but that had

    23          nothing to do with the stoppage of the work of the

    24          Commission.   It was not just the people from the HVO,

    25          but the Commission as a whole.   The whole Commission

Page 5402

     1          stopped, and this should have probably happened much

     2          earlier on, according to the views of the Commission

     3          members, but that was what the circumstances were.

     4          I personally did not want that to happen, nor did

     5          I avoid any contacts in that sense, nor did I ever later

     6          on in any way contribute to the aggravation of those

     7          relationships.   Wherever I was, I sought to talk and to

     8          ease those tensions and you are free to check that and

     9          to prove it.   If I had wanted that, I wouldn't have

    10          looked for Mr. Delalic much later when relations were

    11          extremely strained.   So I didn't want relations to be

    12          like that, nor did I contribute to them being like

    13          that.   Why that was so, that's another story.

    14      Q.  Can you help me about this, please, Mr. D:  you became

    15          aware, you've told us, that, for example, there had been

    16          a rape committed in the camp.   Why didn't you report

    17          this matter to the police?

    18      A.  I think I described the atmosphere in which we worked

    19          and several cases that I did report.  I have nothing

    20          more to add.

    21      Q.  Did you report this incident to anybody, other than

    22          having it put in the report?

    23      A.  When the question of rape is concerned, I explained that

    24          it was a typist whose name and surname I gave who said

    25          this, and that I happened to be there with a member --

Page 5403

     1          if I had been there when the report had been drafted,

     2          I would have asked that that be included and I would ask

     3          the other members of the Commission to do the same.   It

     4          would be up to them to decide whether to do that or not.

     5      Q.  Yes, but you were a former policeman.   You would know

     6          how to go about making a complaint concerning an

     7          allegation of rape, wouldn't you?

     8      A.  I don't know to whom this could have been reported in

     9          those days in Konjic.   The court, the Prosecutor's

    10          office existed there before the war, and we have spoken

    11          about those circumstances.

    12      Q.  Did you make any attempt to find out whether there was a

    13          competent authority to whom you could report an

    14          allegation of rape, Mr. D, and, if not, why not?

    15      A.  What I did I have said and from this viewpoint I can't

    16          say whether maybe I could have done more, but the

    17          circumstances, the atmosphere was such -- let me say

    18          something more.   One day my tyres were pierced on my

    19          car because some of the Serbs had applied to the

    20          military police to look for help, and if you were to

    21          give any kind of assistance, you were proclaimed a

    22          defender of the Cetniks.   That was the atmosphere.   My

    23          dear gentleman, the war -- there was the war.   There

    24          were killings.   There were persecutions of civilians,

    25          and it was not strange that this hatred should have

Page 5404

     1          developed among people who were killing each other.

     2          I avoided that, though, in my own family some people

     3          were killed and their houses destroyed, but I was trying

     4          to encourage people to think, to use their -- to be

     5          reasonable, for that was the only way to overcome the

     6          situation rather than reacting to evil with evil.

     7          I wanted that to be reduced to a minimum, if possible.

     8      Q.  So is what you're saying that it was going to be

     9          dangerous for your health to raise these matters?  It

    10          would be dangerous for anybody to raise these matters?

    11          Is that what you are saying?

    12      A.  Yes.

    13      Q.  Whether they were in command of the camp or not?  Is

    14          that what you are saying?

    15      A.  The Commander of the camp, the people with certain

    16          higher positions, should -- certainly it was easier for

    17          them than for me.   I told you what I experienced, and

    18          I think it's clear enough.

    19      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Thank you very much, Mr. Greaves.

    20      MR. GREAVES:   I noticed your Honour reaching for the button

    21          and I was going to come to an end there.

    22      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   We will go and break.

    23      MR. GREAVES:   Thank you.

    24      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   We will resume at 2.30.

    25      (1.00 pm)

Page 5405

     1                           (Luncheon Adjournment)

























Page 5406

     1      (2.30 pm)

     2      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Good afternoon.

     3      MR. GREAVES:   Good afternoon, your Honour.

     4      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   The witness is all yours.

     5      MR. GREAVES:   I know that it's your Honour's usual practice

     6          to remind him that he is on his oath after each break.

     7      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Would you kindly tell him he is on his

     8          oath.   Remind the witness he's on his oath.

     9      THE REGISTRAR:   I'm reminding you that you are still

    10          testifying under oath.

    11      MR. GREAVES:   I've got one question I think that it might be

    12          helpful just to go into private session for, please.

    13      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Yes, you can go ahead.

    14                            (In closed session)

    15     (redacted)

    16     (redacted)

    17     (redacted)

    18     (redacted)

    19     (redacted)

    20     (redacted)

    21     (redacted)

    22     (redacted)

    23     (redacted)

    24     (redacted)

    25     (redacted)

Page 5407

     1    (redacted)

     2    (redacted)

     3    (redacted)

     4    (redacted)

     5    (redacted)

     6    (redacted)

     7    (redacted)

     8    (redacted)

     9    (redacted)

    10    (redacted)

    11    (redacted)

    12    (redacted)

    13    (redacted)

    14    (redacted)

    15    (redacted)

    16    (redacted)

    17                             (In open session)

    18      MR. GREAVES:   Mr. D, could you help me about this, please?

    19          The period which you spent working at the Celebici camp

    20          was effectively you say the period of June 1992, give or

    21          take a day or two; is that right?

    22      A.  Yes.

    23      Q.  Would you accept that throughout the period that you

    24          were there the conditions within the camp could be

    25          described properly as chaotic?

Page 5408

     1      A.  No, I never used that expression.

     2      Q.  You may never have used it before, but quite apart from

     3          its employment as a place of detention, there were other

     4          activities taking place within the camp, weren't there?

     5      A.  I stated all this in detail as far as I could in my

     6          previous statements.

     7      Q.  Yes, but just remind us, please.

     8      A.  I am reminding you that I have described this in

     9          details, the conditions that I found there.

    10      Q.  Very well, Mr. D.   Finally this, please:  can you help

    11          us -- you were aware of the existence of representatives

    12          of international bodies in the Konjic area, were you, at

    13          the time that this was taking place?

    14      A.  UNHCR was definitely there among the international

    15          organisations.   I don't know where their premises

    16          were.   I think they were stationed in Jablanica.

    17          UNPROFOR, International Red Cross.   I don't know if

    18          they were in Konjic.   Maybe they were, but at that time

    19          I was pointing to the fact that the international

    20          institutions were coming there, were following there,

    21          were controlling things, if you will, helping overcome

    22          our difficulties, and that we should really do

    23          everything we can to protect ourselves from doing

    24          anything wrong and anything untoward.

    25      Q.  Did you make any attempt to bring your concerns about

Page 5409

     1          Celebici camp to their attention?

     2      A.  I did not try to do that, and frankly I didn't even know

     3          where to go, but I wasn't thinking of that.   I was

     4          thinking about what we were doing and what we should be

     5          doing.   Unfortunately I have to say that I did not say

     6          everything that I could have done, speaking from where

     7          I speak now today.   You know, afterwards you see that

     8          you didn't do everything that you could have done at the

     9          time unfortunately.

    10      Q.  Was it one of your concerns, if you had been seen to do

    11          that, to report matters to international bodies, that

    12          would have been seen as helping Cetniks?

    13      A.  You asked a very good question.   That speaks of the

    14          situation that I described before we had the break for

    15          lunch.

    16      Q.  To be perceived as helping Cetniks you have told us

    17          would be a dangerous thing for your health?

    18      A.  Of course; not only mine.

    19      Q.  There were plenty of people on the look-out for people

    20          helping Cetniks, weren't there?

    21      A.  I did not understand this.   Counsel, I think that you

    22          should distinguish between Cetniks and Serbs.

    23      Q.  Well, that was the language of the time, wasn't it?

    24          That was the atmosphere abroad, wasn't it?

    25      A.  No.  I did not accept those things in such an

Page 5410

     1          atmosphere.

     2      Q.  But certainly that was your perception, that there was

     3          danger in it?

     4      A.  That's a different issue.   It was dangerous to offer

     5          assistance and the danger came from those elements who

     6          without thinking clearly or reasonably simply hatred

     7          arose among them, that everybody should be hated in

     8          general, and then you could encounter such people that

     9          could do just anything to you without thinking.

    10          I think that you may know from this war in the former

    11          Yugoslavia what happened on all three sides.

    12      Q.  Thank you very much, Mr. D.   I have no further

    13          questions, your Honour.

    14      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   That is the end of your

    15          cross-examination.   Any further cross-examination?

    16      MS. McMURREY:   Your Honour, counsel for Esad Landzo, we have

    17          no questions of this witness.   Thank you.

    18                        Re-examination by Ms. McHenry

    19      MS. McHENRY:   Just one question, your Honours, in

    20          re-examination.   Sir, did you and the other members of

    21          the Commission believe or appreciate that even writing

    22          the Commission report could be dangerous to your health?

    23      A.  I thought that this question would be asked of me by the

    24          Prosecutor and I think that indeed this question should

    25          have been -- this should be answered.   I came to

Page 5411

     1          Celebici on Tuesday after the report was written and the

     2          guards can confirm that this happened.

     3      MR. GREAVES:   This requires a "yes" or "no" answer.  We

     4          don't need a speech, I think.

     5      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   You are anticipating far too much.

     6          Let him tell us what was the position at that time.   Go

     7          on.

     8      A.  And it was risky.   I'll first answer with "yes" or "no"

     9          and then with the permission of the court I can explain

    10          further.   In other words, counsel for the Defence was

    11          talking about dangers and reporting it to the

    12          international organisations.   The writing of this

    13          report could be considered as reporting of someone who

    14          was not competent, but spreading of this information to

    15          others who were linked to this in any way in an official

    16          sense, it couldn't have been indifferent to them.   I

    17          don't know these people.   I only know Mr. Zejnil

    18          Delalic.   I don't know about the others, whether they

    19          were able to evaluate this properly and take certain

    20          steps and measures, but I know that certain people were

    21          talking informally in town in the sense that such things

    22          should not have been done or right.

    23      MS. McHENRY:   No further questions, your Honour.

    24      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Thank you very much.   So you can

    25          afford to discharge this witness.

Page 5412

     1      A.  I wish to thank the Honourable judges and everybody else

     2          present.

     3      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   So you are discharged.

     4                       (Witness withdrew from court)

     5      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Kindly allow us to have a discussion

     6          for a short time before we come back to you.   (Pause).

     7                Now from our schedule you will find that after

     8          today we are not likely to sit until about after a

     9          fortnight.   So we are considering whether we should

    10          take these two motions, which to some might not be that

    11          contentious, but to others it might be, whether if you

    12          are prepared to discuss this motion that you call

    13          additional witnesses or the other one in protection of

    14          additional measures for protecting witnesses.   There

    15          has been no response to the second one, but I think

    16          there has been only one response from the Delalic

    17          Chamber on the motion to seek leave to call additional

    18          witnesses.   So if you are well disposed to, I suppose

    19          we might be able to hear your response to the first

    20          one.

    21      MR. MORAN:   Your Honours, to the first one on calling

    22          additional witnesses?

    23      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Yes.

    24      MR. MORAN:   We have absolutely no objection to that.   I am

    25          sure we are going to be standing in front of the

Page 5413

     1          Tribunal in that same position one day.   One must

     2          understand that one is going to be in the same position

     3          and not object.

     4      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Any other views on the first one,

     5          Prosecution's motion to seek leave to call additional

     6          witnesses?  I think the circumstances warrant it.   If

     7          it does not, perhaps it might not be necessary.

     8      MR. GREAVES:   I wonder if I might just say that on behalf of

     9          the defendant Mr. Mucic we wish to adopt the objections

    10          raised by Mr. Delalic in this matter.

    11      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   One more response?  Has Ms. McHenry any

    12          answer to that?

    13      MS. McHENRY:   Yes, your Honour.   I'll just speak briefly.

    14          Your Honour, on January 29th the Prosecution, if not

    15          before that, but I know by January 29th, the Prosecution

    16          informed the Defence of who its witnesses will be.   As

    17          is normal in every case, there are some changes that

    18          happen.   In this case without going into detail, there

    19          have been a number of extremely also extenuating

    20          circumstances such that we have sought leave to call

    21          additional witnesses, and it may be that with respect to

    22          a few other witnesses we may file motions in the

    23          future.   We are still trying to figure out which of our

    24          past witnesses will and will not testify.   I believe

    25          briefly the reasons that we want to call the witnesses

Page 5414

     1          are set out in more detail in our motion.   I will just

     2          briefly indicate that of the witnesses, seven are

     3          Austrian police officers that have been made necessary

     4          by various issues raised by the Defence and the court,

     5          and I believe at least most counsel have indicated that

     6          they don't have any objection, including, in fact, with

     7          respect to the Austrian police officers, the Defence of

     8          Mr. Mucic.   We don't -- we hope that it will not be

     9          necessary to call all seven of them, but your Honours

    10          know and the defence knows very well what the issues are

    11          and we don't believe that is an issue.

    12                With respect to the other seven witnesses, the

    13          Defence was notified with respect to all of those on

    14          13th May that we would seek -- we would be seeking leave

    15          to call them.   Five of those witnesses are witnesses

    16          that are going to authenticate documents that the

    17          Defence had been told many months ago well before trial

    18          we would be seeking leave to introduce, and that we

    19          would be identifying the appropriate persons to

    20          authenticate those documents.

    21                So that only leaves two witnesses, and I don't

    22          want to say any of the names, especially now that we are

    23          in public session, but those two witnesses, and in

    24          public session I don't want to discuss in great detail

    25          the reasons for calling them, but they are important

Page 5415

     1          witnesses.   The Defence was notified some time ago that

     2          we were going to seek to call them.   The Defence has

     3          been given copies of their witness statements, so that

     4          they know the substance of what they are going to be,

     5          and although it is unfortunate in many respects that

     6          this case is taking longer than I think any of us

     7          anticipated, and the Defence will have plenty of time to

     8          adequately prepare.

     9      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Let's go to the --

    10      MR. ACKERMAN:   I just want to very briefly say for the

    11          record that Esad Landzo joins the objections filed by

    12          Mr. Delalic with respect to one of those witnesses, whose

    13          name I won't say, but I think the content of the

    14          objection makes it obvious which one I'm referring to.

    15      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   We'll consider a ruling on the

    16          objections later.   Now the second one is this

    17          protection, additional protections for witnesses,

    18          additional measures I would say, because the protection

    19          under the rules are fairly clear.   These are additional

    20          measures suggested for protecting witnesses.   I have

    21          not seen any reaction from any of the defence team.   I

    22          don't know what views the Defence holds about it.

    23      MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation):   Your Honours,

    24          I apologise for standing while you were speaking, but

    25          since the Prosecutor responded to our motion with

Page 5416

     1          respect to additional witnesses, I understood that

     2          before you make a determination, I should say a couple

     3          of sentences.   May I be allowed to do that?

     4      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Well, you could.   I thought we were

     5          talking about the Prosecutor's motion and your

     6          objection.   You could.   You are free.

     7      MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation):   Thank you.   The

     8          Prosecution has just explained that these seven

     9          witnesses are Austrian members of the police, that we

    10          discussed during earlier witnesses.   Our objection is

    11          contained in today's comment by the Prosecution.   We

    12          feel that in the interests of expediency we need not

    13          call all seven, but as many as will be sufficient for

    14          this Trial Chamber to establish the real truth.   If,

    15          when objections were taken, there were present several

    16          people, in my view one of them would be sufficient, so

    17          that our objection was in the sense that we would call

    18          as many Austrian policemen as witnesses as will be

    19          necessary for the Tribunal to determine the legality of

    20          the search and seizure procedures.   That is why

    21          I accept the clarification made by the Prosecution,

    22          which was not stated in their motion.

    23                As regards the other witnesses who need to

    24          authenticate certain documents, Delalic's defence and

    25          the present Defence Counsel of all the other accused in

Page 5417

     1          connection of the question of the Prosecution of

     2          5th December feel that newspaper articles published in

     3          the time of war when they were mainly used for war

     4          propaganda cannot at least be used as evidence in this

     5          trial.  The Prosecution is offering several witnesses

     6          who will authenticate that certain articles were

     7          published in certain newspapers.   We feel that these

     8          articles are inadmissible as evidence and that is why we

     9          consider the testimony of such witnesses unnecessary.

    10                As for the other two concrete witnesses that are

    11          specified in our response, let me just add that one of

    12          those witnesses was heard in December 1996 and in his

    13          statement he said clearly that he was ready to come to

    14          the Tribunal.   That witness did not appear on the list

    15          of witnesses given to us by the Prosecution before the

    16          trial, even though it could have done that.   There are

    17          no new reasons or grounds for the Prosecution to expand

    18          the list of witnesses with this new name.

    19                As for the last witness, we have given the

    20          detailed reasons for our objection in our response to

    21          the Prosecution motion.

    22      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Thank you very much.   I thought

    23          I understood your response, so I didn't think it was

    24          necessary to call on you at that time other than to tell

    25          you that we will give our ruling.   I think it's exactly

Page 5418

     1          what has been stated in your response.

     2                Now I still refer to the issue of the Prosecutor's

     3          request for additional measures, to which we have not

     4          had any reaction.

     5      MR. MORAN:   Your Honour, if I might, a little light

     6          reaction.   First, there is already an order from this

     7          Tribunal that the documents that the Prosecution is

     8          talking about are confidential documents, not to be

     9          disseminated outside of the Defence team, and in that by

    10          the way I include, for instance, my entire law firm and

    11          the people working for me.   What this seems to be is

    12          the Prosecution, one, wants me to spend a bunch of time

    13          creating a log that I am not going to put anything on,

    14          make no entries in and, secondly, it seems to be asking

    15          for an order that if I violate this court's order that

    16          I make a notation of it and show it to you if you ask

    17          for it.   There is already an order out there

    18          restricting access to documents, things like witness

    19          statements, confidential material passed around in the

    20          courts, and this is -- it just seems to be creating

    21          another layer of paperwork in a place where Heaven

    22          knows, there is more than enough paper floating

    23          around.

    24      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   If there is any other opinion, we will

    25          ask the Prosecutor to explain.

Page 5419

     1      MR. GREAVES:   I rather thought it was an insulting thing to

     2          suggest to us and didn't dignify it with a response.

     3      MR. ACKERMAN:   Your Honours, I will just say that I think

     4          each member of the team for each of the defendants here

     5          has given this Trial Chamber no reason to believe that

     6          any of us are of a dishonourable character in any way,

     7          and if there was such evidence, then you ought to simply

     8          run us out of here, but to put us under this kind of an

     9          order raises the presumption that the Chamber considers

    10          that we are disreputable and dishonourable in some

    11          respect, and I think there's no evidence of that.

    12          I think we are prepared to conduct ourselves

    13          professionally, just like we hope the Prosecutor is.   I

    14          don't think an order from this court that we should do

    15          so enhances that to any degree.

    16      MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation):   Your Honour, my

    17          colleagues have said sufficient in a few words very

    18          succinctly but to the point and I should like to join

    19          them in their opinion.   That applies to the Defence

    20          counsel of Mr. Delalic.

    21      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Thank you very much.   Can we hear the

    22          reaction to that?

    23      MS. McHENRY:   Yes, your Honour.   The Prosecution regrets

    24          very much that any Defence Counsel would have been

    25          insulted or would have taken this as attempting to

Page 5420

     1          impinge in any way their honour.   The Prosecution does

     2          not -- is not suggesting that and does not mean to

     3          suggest that any defence attorneys have acted

     4          dishonourably.   In fact, you'll note that the

     5          Prosecution's request that the order apply to all

     6          parties which would include the Prosecution as well as

     7          the Defence counsel, as well as, of course, the

     8          accused.   Your Honours are very well aware, as are

     9          Defence Counsel, of the problems with witness protection

    10          in this case.   In every case before this Tribunal there

    11          are serious issues.   In fact, that's why in another

    12          case before this Tribunal the other Trial Chamber has

    13          enacted or instructed an order very similar to this.

    14          In this case we have had the leak of a protected witness

    15          list.   We have had letters which the Prosecution

    16          believes were written by accused to witnesses, which the

    17          Prosecution believes are threatening, and there have

    18          been anonymous threatening telephone calls made to

    19          certain witnesses in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and again,

    20          without suggesting that necessarily Defence Counsel is

    21          responsible for this, or anyone, we believe in light of

    22          the experiences learned, it should be the case that

    23          everyone keeps very good records of what happens when

    24          the documents, so that if Defence Counsel correctly

    25          gives a document to someone, and then there's an issue,

Page 5421

     1          the Trial Chamber would be able to make an appropriate

     2          investigation into potentially talking to the person who

     3          quite properly got the document.   Given the experiences

     4          we have had, the idea that it would be somehow insulting

     5          to put in writing what Defence Counsel maintains that

     6          they are already doing, which is taking appropriate

     7          care, is the Prosecution just believes prudent and

     8          common sense, and makes sure that if there are other

     9          problems in the future, that they will be able to be

    10          potentially -- well, we believe it will minimise

    11          problems in the future, including about, for instance,

    12          information previously given.   If everyone who receives

    13          a copy of this is told:  "These are the instructions and

    14          I am even keeping a list that I gave this to you and

    15          here are your instructions and here are the sanctions",

    16          it minimises the possibility of problems.   The

    17          Prosecution believes for the protection of the witnesses

    18          requires that this court take appropriate and reasonable

    19          measures, and these measures are intended to apply to

    20          all parties, including the Prosecution, and that we

    21          don't believe they are disrespectful or insulting at

    22          all.   We believe they are necessary.

    23      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Let me get at this.   How do you deal

    24          with statements you tender to the Defence now?  Under

    25          those statements in compliance with Rule 66, what do you

Page 5422

     1          do?

     2      MS. McHENRY:   Previously, and I will be corrected if I say

     3          something wrong, it is the case that all Defence Counsel

     4          had indicated that they would keep material

     5          confidential.   With respect to additional material that

     6          has been disclosed since we requested this order, my

     7          understanding is Defence Counsel have agreed with

     8          respect to that new material to abide by these requests

     9          by the Prosecution.   Does that answer your Honour's

    10          question?  I am not sure I understood it.

    11      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   It does not.   Don't those to whom you

    12          give documents receipt it for you?

    13      MS. McHENRY:   Yes, your Honour.

    14      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   They do already.

    15      MS. McHENRY:   Yes, your Honour.

    16      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Now how do you in practice deal with

    17          this in the Rules?  Is there any monitoring system?

    18      MS. McHENRY:   No.  For instance, your Honours, when we give

    19          the Defence material, we do not monitor how they or how

    20          their clients handle it.

    21      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Under the present rules would there be

    22          monitoring?

    23      MS. McHENRY:   Under the present rules the Defence counsel

    24          and prosecution would just be keeping records such that

    25          if, your Honours, there were subsequent problems, your

Page 5423

     1          Honours would under this order be able to request the

     2          records and determine to whom material has been given.

     3      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Do you think they don't do that now,

     4          they don't keep records of materials?

     5      MS. McHENRY:   Your Honour, I don't know but at this point if

     6          I had -- if you were to ask me my opinion, I don't

     7          believe that all Defence Counsel and all accused follow

     8          the requests that are in here.

     9      JUDGE JAN:   I just want to find out how would you

    10          practically enforce it?  You have to depend entirely

    11          upon the good sense of counsel who is supplied with

    12          these statements.   Supposing they give a statement to

    13          someone, even they keep a record, and that someone

    14          abuses the trust and passes on the statement to someone

    15          else, how can you hold counsel responsible and how can

    16          you bring that other person who has abused the

    17          confidence, how can you bring him before the court?

    18          Under what law?

    19      MS. McHENRY:   For instance, your Honour --

    20      JUDGE JAN:   You have to depend entirely -- the point I want

    21          to make is you have to depend entirely on the good sense

    22          of counsel.

    23      THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

    24      JUDGE JAN:   Nothing more than that.   They all said they

    25          don't do it.   Good enough.

Page 5424

     1      MS. McHENRY:   If I might respectfully disagree in some parts

     2          with your Honour.   For instance, if Defence Counsel

     3          gives someone a copy of the statement quite properly and

     4          informs that person of the confidential restriction.

     5      JUDGE JAN:   And he abuses that confidence.

     6      MS. McHENRY:   And that abuses it, under this system your

     7          Honours would be permitted to request the log, see that

     8          this person had received it and potentially that person

     9          would be guilty of contempt.

    10      JUDGE JAN:   Under what Rule or Statute?  Please point that

    11          out.

    12      MS. McHENRY:   Well, for instance, under the -- if what they

    13          do is then publish an article in the newspaper in which

    14          they accuse or threaten people, or send them threatening

    15          letters --

    16      JUDGE JAN:   It is a different matter passing on information

    17          to someone who may not threaten a witness.   That's a

    18          different matter altogether.   Supposing it is misused

    19          for some other purpose, what are you going to do?

    20      MS. McHENRY:   Your Honour, the Prosecution does not suggest

    21          that this is going to solve every potential problem, but

    22          given that the problems that the Prosecution is most

    23          concerned about are threats made to witnesses, and we

    24          have specific evidence of threats being made to

    25          witnesses, of protected witnesses, needless to say we

Page 5425

     1          are very concerned.

     2      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   You mean the log will have to solve

     3          that.

     4      JUDGE JAN:   How will it solve that?

     5      MS. McHENRY:   I don't know that the log will solve it but it

     6          might assist --

     7      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Under the undertaking of counsel.

     8      MS. McHENRY:   I believe that, for instance, your Honour,

     9          this case when we had a previous one of the issues, both

    10          the accused and counsel claimed their Fifth Amendment

    11          rights to not respond to any questions.   If your

    12          Honours had previously had an order which required that

    13          persons keep a log, it would have assisted the

    14          enquiry.   It my not have necessarily resolved it, but

    15          everything that is in here is reasonable and your

    16          Honours are pointing out that really these should all be

    17          done normally and the Prosecution would agree.   That is

    18          why the Prosecution did not initially request this but

    19          given that we have had a number of entirely unrelated

    20          and separate problems, including threats on witnesses.

    21      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   We will look into it but my

    22          understanding of the profession is that when counsel is

    23          speaking from the Bar, I think you take his word for

    24          it.   Whatever they are saying from the Bar is

    25          accepted.   If counsel has documents which he admits is

Page 5426

     1          with him, I think that's all you need, not a log book,

     2          which just doesn't mean anything.  Unless you have a

     3          third party who might be monitoring the log book,

     4          because it will be ridiculous to expect either the

     5          Defence or the Prosecution monitoring each other's log

     6          books.

     7      MS. McHENRY:   That's correct.   Your Honour, without -- it

     8          is also the case that this log would apply to the

     9          accused, that, for instance, if the accused had a copy

    10          of a witness statement, and as far as I know the accused

    11          are given access to all the material that their

    12          attorneys had, the accused would not be permitted to

    13          give -- to send that to a newspaper, for instance, or to

    14          send it to someone in a local area who might be in a

    15          position to put threats on someone.

    16      JUDGE JAN:   But you are talking about threats,

    17          intimidation.   That is independent of keeping the log,

    18          isn't it?  If you find any ones, if you identify the

    19          person who threatened or intimidated a witness, you can

    20          always bring him before us under Rule 77.   Don't relate

    21          the log to the threat.

    22      MR. GREAVES:   If the accused is going to start doling out

    23          his witness statement, he is not going to start leaving

    24          evidence saying:  "I sent this to a newspaper".

    25      MR. MORAN:   You asked the question a moment ago, Judge Jan,

Page 5427

     1          what are they doing on discovery material.   About a

     2          week ago there was more discovery material that was due

     3          under Rule 66A, which is mandatory discovery, and the

     4          Prosecutor flat refused to provide this material unless

     5          counsel signed a statement agreeing to keep a log book

     6          of this material and such things.

     7      MS. McHENRY:   Your Honour, that is correct, and we said in

     8          the motion that until your Honours decided this, we

     9          would do.   I would also note that we have been more

    10          free than we have to with giving Defence Counsel access

    11          and there are instances when all we are required to do

    12          is let the Defence counsel look at something.  As a

    13          professional courtesy we have usually given them copies.

    14      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   You are actually complying with the

    15          rules.   There is no extra professional courtesy.   The

    16          rules require you to supply them with these things.

    17      MS. McHENRY:   With respect to a large number of material,

    18          your Honour, the rules require that we allow the Defence

    19          counsel to inspect it and it doesn't require that we

    20          provide them copies but we normally do this.

    21      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   I don't see how the log book comes

    22          into obliging anybody with copies of statements or

    23          anything which you can give.   I don't see the

    24          relationship with the log book.

    25      MS. McHENRY:   Your Honour, the Prosecution believes --

Page 5428

     1      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   You can keep your own log book, if it

     2          is signed where he received it, but you don't tell him

     3          about keeping his own log book.  That's his own private

     4          organisation of how to -- his Chambers functions.

     5          Anyway, I think we have heard you.   We will know what

     6          to do later.

     7                Have you any other witness for this week?

     8      MS. McHENRY:   No, your Honours.

     9      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

    10      MR. ACKERMAN:   I wondered if I could, since we are getting

    11          ready to break for a fortnight, if I could raise a

    12          matter that I would simply ask at this point that we all

    13          kind of give some thought to over the break?  I'm not

    14          suggesting any kind of a solution to your Honours at

    15          this point, but there is a matter that has developed

    16          that is beginning to cause at least me and I think other

    17          Defence Counsel some concern.   My belief is that it's

    18          an issue of recent development.

    19                The source of it I will make no -- I have no idea,

    20          but it seems that the last several witnesses who have

    21          testified before this Tribunal, when confronted with

    22          impeachment efforts by statements that they have made

    23          previously, their statements to the OTP, have adopted a

    24          way of dealing with that which is to say: "The

    25          translation must be in error.   That's not what

Page 5429

     1          I said".  That tends to put us in a position where

     2          efforts at impeachment by those prior statements are

     3          failing unless we have the ability to call the

     4          translator to the witness stand to say: "There's nothing

     5          wrong with my translation.   That's exactly what the

     6          person said".  Otherwise the witness has the ability to

     7          defeat efforts of impeachment.

     8                There are a couple of things that concern me about

     9          it.   First of all, it seems to be of recent origin and

    10          second of all it seems now to become the universal

    11          technique of the witnesses that appear before you to

    12          avoid impeachment.

    13      JUDGE JAN:   But, Mr. Ackerman, you have the original

    14          statements in their own language also available.   You

    15          can read that portion to them from their original

    16          statement.

    17      MR. ACKERMAN:   I think some of us can do that.

    18      JUDGE JAN:   That is very easy.

    19      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   In fact, apart from that, apart from

    20          that, if he said that was not what he said, couldn't he

    21          say what he said?  You can now ask him: "What then did

    22          you say?".   The impeachment then still --

    23      MR. ACKERMAN:   I think most of those statements are not in

    24          the original language, your Honour.   I think they were

    25          taken in English and I think they were then read to the

Page 5430

     1          witness by the translator, translated to the witness by

     2          the translator and therefore we don't -- most of these

     3          statements were not done in the original language of the

     4          witness.

     5      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   What we are saying is even if that is

     6          the case and he wants to deny that, what he said in the

     7          translation which you had, you now ask him what did he

     8          say.   It wouldn't be materially different from the

     9          impeachment you want.

    10      MR. ACKERMAN:   What they are saying when you ask them that

    11          is: "What I said was what I said on direct and what is

    12          in my statement was a mistranslation by the translator".

    13      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   We can still decipher whether it is a

    14          mistranslation or not.

    15      MR. ACKERMAN:   It is impossible to do if there is not any

    16          kind of a record of the original Serbo-Croatian.   The

    17          only person who would know whether they translated it

    18          properly or not would be the translator who was

    19          present.   There is no taped record or video record.

    20          All there is is a statement in English.   To the extent

    21          that we have statements of these witnesses that are in

    22          Serbo-Croatian, it is just because we have had them

    23          translated so that we can show it to the witness when we

    24          are trying to impeach them, but it is my understanding

    25          that these statements are all in English and were signed

Page 5431

     1          by the witness in English, and were never taken from the

     2          witness in Serbo-Croatian.   It really does create a

     3          problem if any discrepancies between the statement and

     4          what the witness says in the courtroom are to be blamed

     5          on the translator.   That tends to take the witness off

     6          the hook when you are trying to impeach them with what

     7          they said previously if they are just going to be able

     8          to say: "I didn't say that.   The translator messed up".

     9      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Yes?

    10      MS. McHENRY:   If I might briefly respond first of all to

    11          agree with some things Defence Counsel said.   It is the

    12          case that the fact that usually the investigators and

    13          the witnesses do not speak the same language causes

    14          problems.   Absolutely.   The Prosecution agrees with

    15          that and we are constantly trying to handle that, and

    16          I think we can all see here in court that there are

    17          often translation errors.   Also Defence Counsel is

    18          correct that the statements are taken in English, and to

    19          the extent that the witnesses are shown Serbo-Croatian

    20          versions of their statement, those are statements that

    21          have been made -- in fact I really think translations in

    22          all cases that have been made by the Defence at the

    23          Tribunal's expense, but they are not what the witness

    24          himself signed.   They are translations of the English

    25          language originals.

Page 5432

     1                I would, though, certainly say on behalf of the

     2          Prosecution that no-one from the Office of the

     3          Prosecutor has ever suggested to any witnesses, and

     4          I know Defence Counsel did not suggest that, but just to

     5          be clear in terms of recent origin, the Prosecution

     6          believes that this has been in issue from the very first

     7          witness, and it is the case, as your Honour Judge Karibi

     8          Whyte has pointed out, in such cases you can ask the

     9          witness: "Well, what did you say?", and read the

    10          statement to see if, in fact, it seems plausible.

    11          There are many, many examples where Defence Counsel

    12          impeach a witness with his statement when, in fact --

    13          sometimes the witness will say: "Maybe I said that, but

    14          maybe I was confused", when, in fact, when you read it,

    15          it appears clear what it was was probably a translation

    16          error.

    17                Just one example that came up today, Defence

    18          Counsel was indicating that in the statement it says

    19          "Mr. Delalic did not introduce himself to me but I knew

    20          from ..." That is what Defence Counsel asked the

    21          witness and the witness said: "I certainly would not

    22          have said that because I would have known him".  When

    23          you read the full statement in the English translation

    24          what it says is, as Defence Counsel correctly quoted:

    25          "Mr. Delalic did not introduce himself to me but I knew

Page 5433

     1          from many other people his position was".  I think your

     2          Honours would certainly be able to infer -- what the

     3          Prosecution would believe is probably the witness said

     4          was something like: "He did not introduce his position

     5          to me", and it is just an interpretation issue.   It is

     6          not necessarily that one is right and one is wrong.

     7          That's one of the reasons why the Prosecution wishes the

     8          statements to be introduced, so your Honours can look at

     9          them and determine whether or not you believe it's

    10          likely that there may have been an interpretation issue

    11          or whether or not, in fact, the witness said this, or

    12          something else.

    13      JUDGE JAN:   But when the members from the OTP examined

    14          these persons -- when the members from the OTP examine

    15          these witnesses, don't they keep the record of the

    16          statement in their own language?

    17      MS. McHENRY:   No, your Honour.   At least up until any

    18          investigation that I have worked on, which has been

    19          several, not just Celebici, but for a while I haven't

    20          been working on any new investigations, so unless

    21          something has changed, which I know at various times

    22          there are talk about how best to handle this issue, it

    23          is the case that the statement is taken in English,

    24          because the person taking the statement, the

    25          investigator, does not speak Serbo-Croatian.   So the

Page 5434

     1          statement is taken in English and there is no original

     2          Serbo-Croatian to maintain.

     3      JUDGE JAN:   But don't you audio record his statement which

     4          he is making to the OTP?

     5      MS. McHENRY:   Video or cassette, do you mean?

     6      JUDGE JAN:   Just cassette.

     7      MS. McHENRY:   In the past that has not been the case.   I

     8          don't know if that is the case with investigations that

     9          are on-going.   I can certainly say with respect to this

    10          case none of the -- unless someone was interviewed and

    11          advised of their rights, which is the case with some

    12          people, in which case those interviews are audio

    13          recorded, there are no recordings made.   It is just the

    14          written statement in English.

    15      JUDGE JAN:   But this is very interesting.   The witness is

    16          asked to certify that this is a correct statement but in

    17          a language which he doesn't know.

    18      MS. McHENRY:   That is correct.

    19      JUDGE JAN:   How can he read it?

    20      MS. McHENRY:   What the witness attests to is --

    21      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   A translated version of what he said.

    22      MS. McHENRY:   Exactly.   Let me find it for your Honours.

    23          What the witness attests to is the statement that has

    24          been read to him in whatever language is true, and then

    25          the interpreter then certifies that:

Page 5435

     1                "I am a qualified translator and I have translated

     2          this", but it certainly is an issue.   What we have here

     3          is -- then when it is translated back into

     4          Serbo-Croatian what you have is a translation of a

     5          translation, which causes additional problems.

     6      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Actually this matter has been

     7          discussed for quite a while.   It was impossible in the

     8          field to do otherwise except you have somebody who can

     9          take it down in that language and keep it in that

    10          language for the purposes of the trial, but I don't know

    11          how to.   This still creates problems.   All it might do

    12          at this stage, it might create doubts in the mind of

    13          whoever is considering his statement as to how much he

    14          can rely on those statements.   This is perhaps what it

    15          might do.   Well, I know those are some of the hazards

    16          of a trial.

    17      JUDGE JAN:   Mr. Ackerman, can't you take advantage of the

    18          certificate which the translator gives on the

    19          statement?

    20      MR. ACKERMAN:   Well --

    21      JUDGE JAN:   Instead of calling the translator, the

    22          certificate is there and the Prosecution does not

    23          dispute that the certificate is that of the translator.

    24      THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

    25      MR. ACKERMAN:   We of course do that, as Mr. Greaves did

Page 5436

     1          today.   I don't know.   My guess is there is a whole

     2          bunch of translators sitting around this building

     3          saying:  "I wish they'd stop doing this to us.   We

     4          would love to get in there and tell the judges we do

     5          this right and we are good at what we do" but

     6          I understand they are not permitted to testify under the

     7          rules that exist here at the present time.   I am just

     8          raising what I think is a problem and I'm hoping that

     9          some thought can be given to it beyond: "There's nothing

    10          we can do about it".  I think maybe there is something

    11          we can do about it.

    12      MR. MORAN:   I would suggest because all of these translators

    13          are certified by the Registry of the Tribunal that that

    14          is at least conclusive evidence -- it may be rebuttal,

    15          but at least a rebuttal presumption that, in fact, they

    16          did their job, they did their job like they were

    17          supposed to and they did it competently.   If someone

    18          says it is a bad translation, it would be the burden of

    19          the person to prove it, not just to claim it, but to

    20          bring forward proof that the translation isn't accurate.

    21      JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE:   Thank you very much.   Actually in all

    22          literary things the problem of translation has been very

    23          well understood and known.   When you translate from one

    24          translation to the other, and it depends on who

    25          translates, and as many people have translated

Page 5437

     1          particular subject matter have what they call their own

     2          influence on it.   Even if you call someone else to

     3          translate the same thing, they might not use the same

     4          words.   So it is not that one can categorically say you

     5          can do, but an effort will be made to make sure there is

     6          a minimum of acceptance which one can get to

     7          translations, because it is not the words of the person

     8          who has spoken the original thing and he might not use

     9          the words that the translator has used, and another

    10          translator might not even use the same words.   So we

    11          are still going from one to the other.   It's a pity but

    12          we will try.   It is a process of learning.   At some

    13          stage we will find a solution.

    14                Now I think we will now adjourn until 4th August

    15          and for that week we will sit only until 7th August and

    16          resume again on 11th-15th.   I think that's the next

    17          schedule when we resume.   So I wish everyone a good

    18          holiday.

    19      (3.30 pm)

    20          (Hearing adjourned until 4th August 1997 at 10.00 am)

    21                                --ooOoo--