Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6073

     1                                     Wednesday, 13th August 1997

     2      (10.00 am)

     3      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

     4          Could we have the witness?

     5                         (Witness entered court)

     6      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Please remind the witness he is still

     7          under his oath.

     8      THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Grubac, may I remind you you are still

     9          under oath.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  May we have the appearances, please.

    11      MR. NIEMANN:  If your Honour pleases, my name is Niemann and

    12          I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone and

    13          Ms. Van Dusschoten for the Prosecution.

    14      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Appearances for the Defence.

    15      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Good morning your Honours, my name is Edina

    16          Residovic, and I appear for Mr. Zejnil Delalic along with

    17          Professor Eugene O'Sullivan, professor from Canada.

    18      MR. OLUJIC:  Good morning, your Honours my name is Olujic and

    19          I appear on behalf of Mr. Zdravko Mucic, I come from

    20          Croatia.  My colleague with me in the courtroom is Niko

    21          Duric, attorney from Croatia.

    22      MR. KARABDIC:  Good morning, your Honours, I am Salih

    23          Karabdic and I appear for Mr. Hazim Delic.  With me in

    24          the team is Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston

    25          Texas.

Page 6074

     1      MR. ACKERMAN:  Good morning, your Honours, I am John Ackerman

     2          and I appear along with my co-counsel Cynthia McMurray

     3          on behalf of Mr. Esad Landzo.

     4      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Ms. Residovic, I think you are still

     5          cross-examining.  You may proceed with your

     6          cross-examination.

     7                        Dr. Petko Grubac (continued)

     8                Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC (continued)

     9      Q.  Good morning, your Honours, good morning, Mr. Grubac.  We

    10          discussed yesterday about your testimony in this Trial

    11          Chamber.  I would now like to ask you some other

    12          questions regarding the facts you have testified to, or

    13          which I feel you are aware of as an eyewitness of the

    14          events.  I think that today we also have to bear in mind

    15          the warnings of the court in connection with the

    16          translation of the questions and answers.

    17                Mr. Grubac, in the course of your direct

    18          examination you said that while you were working in

    19          building 22 at the beginning, that you wrote down in a

    20          notebook, as you had used to do in your professional

    21          career, some diagnoses of the patients who were in your

    22          infirmary.  You also said that you did not write down

    23          the real diagnosis, but a mild one.  Did I understand

    24          you well?

    25      A.  I am afraid these earphones are not working properly, so

Page 6075

     1          I will not be able hear the translation.  If somebody

     2          would be kind enough to change these earphones for me,

     3          please.  (Pause) I can hear you.  At the beginning we

     4          did record the proper diagnoses, but later on we felt

     5          that it might not be a good idea to keep such a record

     6          of the actual diagnosis because this could have some

     7          adverse effects on us, so we stopped doing it, and

     8          eventually we stopped keeping any kind of records.

     9      Q.  You also said, Mr. Grubac, that Pero Mrkajic had died in

    10          the infirmary.  Is it true, as your colleague said, that

    11          at the time you said and recorded in the book that he

    12          died from diabetes for the reasons that you have now

    13          given us?

    14      A.  Did (redacted) say that he put this down or that I had put

    15          it down?

    16      Q.  (redacted) said that asked for the cause of death, he said

    17          diabetes.  My question is, did you put that diagnosis

    18          down in the notebook?

    19      A.  I do not agree at all with (redacted) that Pero

    20          Mrkajic died from diabetes.  My opinion differs.

    21      Q.  Maybe there is a misunderstanding.  I know what you said

    22          regarding the causes of death of Pero Mrkajic, but

    23          because of the circumstances you were in and because of

    24          the fear you felt you put down a milder diagnosis.  Is

    25          it possible that in view of all this you put in the

Page 6076

     1          notebook as the cause of death of Pero Mrkajic his

     2          diabetes?

     3      A.  You are saying "put down"?  I think that is

     4          impersonally -- can I answer whether I wrote down this

     5          diagnosis?  I think I did not put down that diagnosis,

     6          in fact, I think I did not write anything regarding the

     7          death of Mrkajic.

     8      Q.  Since you noted down the milder injuries in the

     9          notebook, would it be right to say that without any

    10          explanation from you anybody who would look through that

    11          notebook would not be aware of all the things that you

    12          have been telling us here in this Trial Chamber?

    13      A.  They would not know for two reasons.  First, because

    14          after a certain period of time we put down milder

    15          diagnoses, and the second reason being that after some

    16          time we did not record anything in the book.

    17      Q.  If I understood you well, in answer to a question from

    18          the Prosecution you said that you went to building 6 on

    19          several occasions, that sometimes you were escorted by

    20          guards and at other times you went on your own when

    21          being asked to go there by prisoners.  You also said

    22          that the treatment Hazim Delic gave you was correct, as

    23          well as Pavo Mucic's attitude towards you; whenever you

    24          met him he would say hello, ask you how you were and so

    25          on.  Have I understood and interpreted well this part of

Page 6077

     1          your testimony?

     2      A.  Yes, you have, quite well, quite correctly.

     3      Q.  Is it true, Mr. Grubac, that during your stay in building

     4          22, you were not personally mistreated, physically or in

     5          any other way abused?  Of course, I know that you were

     6          suffering as a man held captive, whose freedom of

     7          movement was restricted.  My question is: was any kind

     8          of force resorted to in treatment towards you?

     9      A.  Apart from the fact that I was in a camp, that I was

    10          hungry, that I did not have water, that I was living

    11          under inhumane conditions, no physical force was used

    12          against me, that is true.

    13      Q.  No special stricter or harder sanctions were enforced

    14          against you because of something you said or did, apart

    15          from what we have already noted?

    16      A.  I did my best not to say or do anything that could

    17          provoke the reaction of those people.

    18      Q.  Thank you.  You also said that you were visited by a

    19          team of Television Sarajevo, is that true?

    20      A.  It is.

    21      Q.  At the time, you were interviewed by journalists of

    22          television Sarajevo, Ms. Jadranka Milosevic and Zvonko

    23          Maric; is that correct?

    24      A.  Yes, it is.

    25      Q.  Let us be more precise, you were interviewed by?

Page 6078

     1          Jadranka Milosevic and Zvonko Maric was the cameraman?

     2      A.  Possibly, yes.

     3      Q.  As you stated, before talking to you Zvonko Maric filmed

     4          the interior of building 22?

     5      A.  Yes, he filmed the interior of building 22.

     6      Q.  After that in front of the entrance to building number

     7          22 you and (redacted) were interviewed by journalist

     8          Jadranka Milosevic?

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  If you recall, it was you who were the first to be

    11          interviewed?

    12      A.  Possibly so.

    13      Q.  After that, (redacted) was the one to

    14          answer questions?

    15      A.  Possibly.

    16      Q.  When the journalist, Ms. Jadranka Milosevic, was about

    17          to terminate the interview, you asked if you could say

    18          something in addition to what you had already said in

    19          answer to her questions?

    20      A.  I do not remember that.

    21      Q.  After talking to you, Jadranka Milosevic and Zvonko

    22          Maric spoke to some of the prisoners, (redacted) and

    23          (redacted)?

    24      A.  Those are prisoners who were not in building 22.

    25      Q.  Yes, but they were prisoners that you knew were in the

Page 6079

     1          prison, and after the interview with you they were also

     2          interviewed.

     3      A.  I do not know, they may have spoken to them before us or

     4          after us.  I do not know which building they were in.

     5          I just know that they were not in building 22.

     6      Q.  In that case let me put a direct question to you.  Did

     7          you watch when, not far from you, in the area in the

     8          direction of number 9, the journalists spoke to (redacted)

     9          (redacted)?

    10      A.  I do not recall them being in the vicinity.  It is

    11          possible, but I really do not recall that.  I just know

    12          that those men were not in building 22 and I do not

    13          remember that they had this interview on the platform in

    14          front of the building, but it is possible.

    15      Q.  In view of this answer, you cannot testify to the

    16          contents of the conversation the journalists had with

    17          these prisoners?

    18      A.  I could not.

    19      Q.  Could you tell us when this interview was conducted?

    20      A.  You heard that when the Prosecution asked me when it

    21          happened, my answer was that it is difficult for me to

    22          situate in time that interview and visit of the TV team,

    23          but I think it was in August after I was released from

    24          the camp, but I am not quite sure about it.

    25      Q.  I would now suggest that we view this TV story.  It is

Page 6080

     1          Defence exhibit and it is a fragment of a tape that has

     2          been admitted into evidence already, but before that,

     3          since a man appears in this feature who has asked for

     4          protective measures, that we have a closed session while

     5          we view this tape so as not to reveal the identity of

     6          that witness.  Will you please show us segment 2 from

     7          exhibit D42.  I apologise, I am being told it may be

     8          D45, but I think the technical services have the tape

     9          with the interview with the journalists, so if I am

    10          wrong in citing the number of the exhibit, I apologise,

    11          this can be verified.

    12                              (Closed session)

    13      (redacted)

    14      (redacted)

    15      (redacted)

    16      (redacted)

    17      (redacted)

    18      (redacted)

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Page 6081

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Page 6082

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Page 6083

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    12        (redacted)

    13                              (Open session)

    14      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Dr. Grubac, having seen this story, may

    15          I ask you, is that the interview that you granted to the

    16          journalists of TV Sarajevo?

    17      A.  Yes, it is and I can now confirm that the interview took

    18          place in August after we were released from the Celebici

    19          camp, something I could not say with certainty before,

    20          and now I can say that on the basis of the clothes I was

    21          wearing and the actual text of my statement.

    22      Q.  And you can confirm that at the end of the interview,

    23          when the journalist thought it was over, you wanted to

    24          make a clarification and you did so.

    25      A.  Obviously I wanted to say that we, too, were prisoners

Page 6084

     1          until only a few days ago and that we had now been

     2          released, we were in town and that we come to the camp

     3          from town.

     4      Q.  And because you were saying that then, you said that you

     5          were released three weeks ago, so the interview must

     6          have been somewhere in the middle of August or the

     7          second half of August?

     8      A.  Yes.

     9      Q.  Mr. Grubac, in the course of the examination-in-chief,

    10          you said that before this interview you were taken to

    11          the command building where you met Mr. Delalic and

    12          Mr. Mucic?

    13      A.  No, after the interview we went to the command

    14          building.  That is what I said to the Prosecution and

    15          that is the truth.

    16      Q.  So as you stated here, you met Mr. Delalic in front of

    17          the building?

    18      A.  In front of the building and later on in the building

    19          after the interview.

    20      Q.  And you did not see there any other people whom you

    21          knew?

    22      A.  I do not know what you mean when you say other people.

    23      Q.  Except for the journalists, Mucic, Delalic, yourself and

    24          (redacted) no one else you knew was there?

    25      A.  I do not recall that there were any people that I knew,

Page 6085

     1          except for those.

     2      Q.  Dr. Grubac, if somebody were to claim that before this

     3          interview you were in the command building and that you

     4          spoke there with others and that there were other

     5          acquaintances of yours in there, then that person would

     6          not be telling the truth?

     7      A.  I would not put it that way.

     8      MR. TURONE:  May I object, please, to this way of putting a

     9          question, assuming that other people, without saying

    10          whom, is not telling the truth on something.  I do not

    11          think this is a proper way to ask a question of the

    12          witness, your Honour.

    13      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Dr. Grubac, are you sure that you did not go

    14          to the command building before the interview and sit

    15          there and have a drink there?  Are you quite sure of

    16          that, that you did not go to the command building before

    17          the interview?

    18      A.  I do not remember going.  I will give you the same

    19          answer.

    20      Q.  If (redacted) were to say that Mr. Delalic's brother was

    21          there, then you would say that that is not correct?

    22      A.  I would not say that, because I cannot tell with

    23          absolutely precision who else was there apart from those

    24          people that I have named.  There may have been some

    25          others, but I do not remember, so I would not say that

Page 6086

     1          (redacted) was not telling the truth.

     2      Q.  Let us go back for a moment to the same question in a

     3          different way.  Mr. Grubac, you were interrogated by the

     4          Prosecution on 12th and 13th December 1995; is that so?

     5      A.  You mean here in the Tribunal?

     6      Q.  No, somewhere else, I do not know where.

     7      A.  Will you please repeat the question for me.

     8      Q.  Were you interviewed in December 1995 by Mr. Ole Hortemo

     9          investigator of the OTP?

    10      A.  Yes.

    11      Q.  Is it true that you spoke a second time with the

    12          investigator of the Tribunal, Ms. Sabine Manke and that

    13          you also made a statement on that occasion on

    14          12th November 1996?

    15      A.  Yes, that is correct.

    16      Q.  When you made your first statement, you signed a

    17          certificate, a witness acknowledgment, saying that you

    18          had made the interview of your own free will, that you

    19          were aware that it may be used in legal proceedings

    20          before the International Criminal Tribunal, and that you

    21          stated everything to the best of your knowledge and

    22          recollection; is that so?

    23      A.  Possibly.

    24      Q.  Is it true, Mr. Grubac, that in that statement you made

    25          for the investigator over two days, you did not make any

Page 6087

     1          mention of this interview, nor of the presence of

     2          Mr. Zejnil Delalic at the interview?

     3      A.  I do not know, one would have to see the statements and

     4          then see whether they contain this or not.

     5      Q.  If I were to show you a copy of that statement to

     6          refresh your memory, then you would be able to answer

     7          that question precisely.

     8      A.  I believe you.  If it does not say that in the

     9          statement, then I did not say it at the time, but that

    10          does not mean to say that this did not happen.

    11      Q.  Is it true then that you referred to this interview for

    12          the first time when questioned by Ms. Sabine Manke on

    13          12th November 1996?

    14      A.  I did not compare my statements, so really I cannot tell

    15          you whether this happened for the first time on that

    16          particular date or some other, I just cannot tell you

    17          that.

    18      Q.  Is it true that you spoke about this incident and you

    19          mentioned Mr. Delalic only because you were put a

    20          question to that effect explicitly by Ms. Sabine Manke?

    21      A.  I do not know how Ms. Sabine could have known that

    22          Delalic had spoken with me then or not.  It is quite

    23          possible that I just recalled the incident and told her

    24          about it, without knowing how important all that is.

    25          I am neither a judge nor an investigator, so I really do

Page 6088

     1          not see why this is so important for the court.  Maybe

     2          on one occasion I did not mention something and I did on

     3          another occasion.

     4      Q.  So you do not exclude the possibility that you spoke

     5          about it because the investigator asked you about it?

     6      A.  That is not what I said.

     7      Q.  My question is: but you do not exclude that possibility?

     8      A.  I do not wish to answer hypothetical questions, but if

     9          you want me to answer them hypothetically, I can, though

    10          I think I am a witness and my answers should be very

    11          clear.

    12      Q.  In the course of my cross-examination yesterday you

    13          explained to me your relationship with Mr. Delalic and

    14          you told us also that he did not change his attitude

    15          towards you even later, and that you addressed him,

    16          having a certain amount of trust in him, with the

    17          request that he might assist you.  I am referring to

    18          September, so that you did not feel any fear of

    19          Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

    20      A.  That is not true, that is your assumption.  I felt a

    21          terrible fear, not only of Zejnil but of the whole

    22          situation, and I was afraid of everyone.  It would be

    23          strange if I had not felt fear in view of all the things

    24          that happened to me and it is not true that I thought

    25          that his attitude had not changed.  That is your

Page 6089

     1          interpretation.  That is not what I said.  I think that

     2          everybody's attitude changed, or perhaps this was an

     3          attitude they had before and it was I who was wrong, so

     4          I could not really tell which is true.

     5      Q.  I do not wish to engage in any polemics with you.  The

     6          transcript has registered your answers to my questions,

     7          but let us continue.

     8                At the time you were giving this interview, you

     9          had already been released from prison?

    10      A.  Yes, I can say that only conditionally because the whole

    11          of Konjic and the surrounding villages were a great big

    12          camp for all Serbs, so you could see that my release

    13          papers said that my freedom of movement was limited.

    14          You cannot really call that freedom.

    15      Q.  You said that part of your answers in the interview were

    16          not true because you were afraid of the consequences.

    17      A.  That is true.

    18      Q.  However, if Mr. Delalic was there, judging by what he had

    19          already done for you up to then, you did not expect any

    20          consequences to come from Mr. Delalic; is that not so?

    21      A.  No, it is not.  If you want me to elaborate on this

    22          answer, I can.

    23      Q.  No, it is not necessary.  If, Mr. Grubac, the journalists

    24          Jadranka Milosevic and Zvonko Maric were to say that

    25          Mr. Delalic was not there at all, then they would not be

Page 6090

     1          telling the truth according to you?

     2      A.  They would not be telling the truth and it would not be

     3          for the first time.  They spoke many untruths on TV

     4          Sarajevo.  They were well known reporters who told all

     5          kinds of stories and that is why I remember their

     6          names.  Otherwise I would not have remembered them

     7          because they are rather insignificant people, but I do

     8          remember them precisely because they spoke a lot of

     9          untruth and I would not trust them if they were to say

    10          that now.

    11      Q.  But this interview with you was recorded fully, was it

    12          not?

    13      A.  I am not even sure of that.

    14      Q.  Very well, Mr. Grubac.  After this interview, many Serbs

    15          criticised you for speaking in quite positive terms

    16          about the situation in the camp; is that true?

    17      A.  It is not.  I think that the Serbs at that time were

    18          unable to see this interview.

    19      Q.  Mr. Grubac, you certainly are aware of the fact that

    20          Mr. Delalic had a lot of problems in Konjic for trying to

    21          help you; do you know that?

    22      A.  I do not know how he helped me to have so many

    23          problems.  Coming from whom?

    24      Q.  From the authorities in Konjic?

    25      A.  I thought that he held the highest post in this

Page 6091

     1          hierarchy of power in Konjic himself.

     2      Q.  You have testified in court that somewhere in mid

     3          September you were in the house of Mr. Delalic?

     4      A.  Yes.

     5      Q.  And as far as I could understand, that visit was quite

     6          friendly, and there was a lot of joking on both sides;

     7          is that not so?

     8      A.  You know how Stalin would assemble his friends in the

     9          evening.

    10      Q.  I do not know.

    11      A.  I will tell you.

    12      Q.  As you described to us yesterday, this was a friendly

    13          talk, with joking on both sides, did I hear you well

    14          yesterday?

    15      A.  Yes, there was some gallows humour inter alia.

    16      Q.  As you stated yesterday, that was the first time that

    17          you learnt that Mr. Delalic was the commander of Tactical

    18          Group Number 1?

    19      A.  Is this the full title or is there anything else?

    20      Q.  Commander of the First Tactical Group of the army of

    21          Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    22      A.  Yes, that is true.

    23      Q.  And then you also learned that he was spending a lot of

    24          time in the vicinity of Sarajevo on Igman where his seat

    25          actually was?

Page 6092

     1      A.  What do you mean?  How could I have found out that from

     2          this one sentence which he addressed to me which was an

     3          offer for me to go to the hospital on Igman?  Possibly,

     4          but how do you think I could have concluded that on that

     5          basis?  I did not come to that conclusion, but it is

     6          possible.

     7      Q.  Did Mr. Delalic talk to you about what he was doing as

     8          the commander of the tactical group in the theatre near

     9          Sarajevo?

    10      A.  He did not introduce himself to me as the commander of

    11          this tactical group, so I had no idea that was what he

    12          was and I did not know what Mr. Zejnil Delalic was doing

    13          exactly at the time.  I thought, if you want me to tell,

    14          he was considered to be a high officer of the Patriotic

    15          League.

    16      Q.  However, you did know that Zejnil Delalic was not on

    17          good terms with the chief of MUP, Jasmin Guska, did you

    18          not?

    19      A.  I did not know that, but it is possible.  Before Jasmin

    20          Guska, this position was held by a certain Dr. Sejo

    21          Hajduk, who was, so to speak, a much more liberal

    22          person, and who was not as committed to the SDA as

    23          Jasmin Guska was, so he was replaced, and a much more

    24          radical person was installed in his stead, which was

    25          Jasmin Guska.  Sejo was a friend of Zejnil Delalic's,

Page 6093

     1          and possibly on that basis, I do not know what other

     2          basis could have been there, I do not know that their

     3          relationship was not a correct one.

     4      Q.  Mr. Grubac, in the conversation you had with the

     5          representative of the Prosecution in 1995, you as a man

     6          who had lived in Konjic?

     7      A.  I am sorry, I did not hear the first part of your

     8          question.

     9      Q.  In your talk about the Prosecutor in December 1995, you

    10          as a person who was familiar with the structures and the

    11          personages in Konjic, sought to tell or tried to tell

    12          the Prosecutor who certain persons were in Konjic at the

    13          time.  On page 10 of the Serbo-Croat translation of your

    14          statement, the following reads, and please be so kind as

    15          to confirm whether you indeed said so:

    16                "In my opinion, during the conflict in Konjic, the

    17          most influential and the most responsible were the

    18          following persons: Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic, chairman of

    19          the SDA and of the war presidency; Jasmin Guska, chief

    20          of the MUP and secretary of the SDA; Esad Ramic,

    21          commander of the TO; Dinko Zebic, commander of the HVO,

    22          Sefko Niksic, commander of police; Zvonko Zovko,

    23          commander of a HVO unit; Midhat Pirkic, commander of a

    24          Muslim brigade; Jasna Dzumhur, responsible for the

    25          exchange of prisoners and the issuance of various

Page 6094

     1          permits; Zejnil Delalic, commander of the tactical group

     2          of the BH army."

     3                Did you communicate in this way what was written

     4          in your statement?

     5      A.  Yes, I did.

     6      Q.  In view of the fact that you were familiar with the

     7          circumstances there and these facts, can you confirm

     8          that at the time, Ivan Asinovic was the President of the

     9          deputy commander of the HVO in Konjic?

    10      A.  That is correct, if his name is Ivan, I know him as

    11          Ivica, but if that is his name, that is correct.

    12      Q.  And that Dr.agan Peric was the President of the HDZ,

    13          President of the government or of the executive council

    14          of the commune of Konjic?

    15      A.  You mean Dragomir Peric.

    16      Q.  Or Drago?

    17      A.  Yes, that is correct.

    18      Q.  That Omer Boric was for a time the commander of the TO

    19          headquarters?

    20      A.  Correct.

    21      Q.  That Nedzo Stojanovic, known as Kiso, earlier the holder

    22          of offices in the municipality of Konjic and while you

    23          were still there, which is to say towards the end of

    24          1992 and the beginning of 1993, vice-president of the

    25          war presidency of the municipality of Konjic?

Page 6095

     1      A.  That is not true, or I do not know that that is so.

     2          Kiso while I was in Konjic was not the vice-president of

     3          the war presidency, or at least I was not aware of that.

     4      Q.  That Dragan Andric was the assistant commander of the

     5          staff of the TO of Konjic?

     6      A.  Possibly, these are some precise particulars which

     7          I could not exactly confirm but it is possible.

     8      Q.  Do you know what Zeljko Mlikota was?

     9      A.  Probably the commander of a HVO unit somewhere out

    10          there, I am not sure.  There were so many armies and so

    11          many commanders, it was really hard to tell who belonged

    12          to what.

    13      Q.  You also stated that in October 1995, the MUP arrested

    14          you and your wife again?

    15      A.  Yes, on 4th October they took us to the MUP prison.

    16      Q.  And you stayed there until 24th December 1992?

    17      A.  Or 25th , yes, that is so.

    18      Q.  And you were helped then by Goran Blazovic, who used to

    19          be a MUP Inspector before that and at that time he was a

    20          member of the HVO; is that not so?

    21      A.  He then assumed this position of deputy commander,

    22          deputy chief of the MUP.  It is possible that before

    23          that he had been the commander or the head of MUP, or an

    24          inspector, sorry, I am not quite sure.  It is possible.

    25      Q.  At that time some guards told you that Jasmin Guska had

Page 6096

     1          arrested you because of the possibility of being

     2          exchanged for the bodies of the mother and sister of

     3          your colleague Sejo Buturovic who had been killed

     4          somewhere in the area in the direction of Borci; is that

     5          correct?

     6      A.  That was one of the variants we heard from the guards.

     7          I do not know whether they were well informed.  No one

     8          of the officials talked to us about it, but that is true

     9          that we were told that also.

    10      Q.  During your stay in prison you probably learned that

    11          Mr. Delalic had left Konjic and gone abroad.

    12      A.  Yes, we learned that he had left Konjic but we did not

    13          know to where he had returned at that time.

    14      Q.  In the prison and after you had left it, you probably

    15          heard various rumours which were being bandied about in

    16          Konjic at the time, claiming that Zejnil Delalic had

    17          fled aboard a Chetnik helicopter and he had gone to the

    18          Serb side?

    19      A.  I have not heard this variant, that he had aligned

    20          himself with the Serbs.  I heard various stories about

    21          the actual way in which he had escaped from Konjic.

    22          I heard the variant that he had gone across Serb held

    23          territory, but not aboard a Chetnik helicopter and I did

    24          not know that he was in Serb held territory.

    25      Q.  You also heard that he was being criticised for having

Page 6097

     1          helped the Serbs and that they were saying that he was a

     2          collaborator of the KOS?

     3      A.  I do not know how he helped the Serbs and I would like

     4          to hear one single example of how someone helped the

     5          Serbs in Konjic.  I would be glad to hear that.  I have

     6          no knowledge of any such examples.  You mean

     7          Schindler List or something like that?

     8      Q.  I was not in Konjic myself, Mr. Grubac, I cannot discuss

     9          the matter with you.  I am asking you and please answer

    10          to the best of your knowledge.

    11      A.  I believe that no one helped the Serbs at that time.

    12          They were all seeking to destroy the Serbs in the

    13          municipality of Konjic, and they almost succeeded.

    14      Q.  Do you know, Mr. Grubac, that the first aid of the UNHCI

    15          only arrived in Konjic in the first half of August?

    16      A.  I am not aware of that, but it is of no consequence

    17          because the Serbs were not given any assistance, and all

    18          the money and the food they did have was looted from

    19          them, so this is an immaterial factor, as far as the

    20          Serbs were concerned.  I did not get any -- I did not

    21          know of it, and if I did know, it would have been to no

    22          avail.

    23      Q.  If (redacted) were to confirm in court, before this

    24          Tribunal, that a large quantity of flour was given to

    25          the Serbs in Donje Selo, you are simply unaware of that

Page 6098

     1          fact, is that so?

     2      A.  I have my opinion about (redacted).  Let the court

     3          appraise his statements.  It is possible he said this

     4          flour was distributed.  I could not move, I could not go

     5          to Donje Selo.  My movement was restricted.

     6      Q.  In connection with the persons that we mentioned before,

     7          you know that Djuro Kuljanin was the vice president of

     8          the assembly of the municipality of Konjic?

     9      A.  Yes, I do, that is true.

    10      Q.  And you are aware of the fact that in the second half of

    11          April he went to Borci?

    12      A.  I heard that.  I could not confirm at what time exactly,

    13          I know that he went to Borci.

    14      Q.  If (redacted) said that people who sought

    15          to help the Serbs, of which there were not many, but

    16          there were some, were considered to be fifth columnists

    17          and suffered various consequences in an overall

    18          atmosphere also on the part of the authorities in

    19          Konjic, could you agree to such a statement?

    20      A.  No, I could not agree with such a statement, but I could

    21          say that there were some individuals who did help some

    22          individual Serbs, and assistance or help is a relative

    23          term.  I could not agree that this was on a larger scale

    24          or any scale which was significant.  I do not know of

    25          any consequences of anyone having any consequences

Page 6099

     1          because there were no associations nor any larger groups

     2          helping the Serbs, apart from honourable individuals.

     3      Q.  And you believe that Mr. Delalic was among these

     4          honourable exceptions?

     5      A.  I would believe that if you were to enumerate ten Serbs

     6          or five Serbs whom he had helped.  I have not heard that

     7          he assisted the Serbs.

     8      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Thank you very much, Mr. Grubac, I have no

     9          further questions.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Olujic, your

    11          cross-examination.

    12                        Cross-examined by MR. OLUJIC

    13      Q.  Thank you, your Honours.  Good morning, Dr. Grubac.

    14      A.  Good morning.

    15      Q.  You must be tired after two days of testimony both from

    16          the examination-in-chief and the cross-examination, but

    17          I hope we will get through this without any major

    18          difficulties.  Let me tell you straight away that I do

    19          not intend to take too long, but I ask you, with regard

    20          to the questions I put to you, to bear in mind the

    21          technical aspects, so that everybody in the courtroom

    22          can follow what we are saying and to avoid the

    23          impression that we are conducting a dialogue for our own

    24          benefit only.

    25                Dr. Grubac, you said in your testimony when

Page 6100

     1          questioned by my learned colleague that until the

     2          horrors of war you were head of the clinic in Konjic, is

     3          that correct, or head of the health centre, rather?

     4      A.  I was doctor of one of the departments of the health

     5          centre, that is true.

     6      Q.  In view of your specialisation and post graduate

     7          studies, did you engage in forensic psychiatry as well?

     8      A.  The Ministry of Justice of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina

     9          did give to me the title of permanent expert witness

    10          attached to the courts of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    11      Q.  Which courts did you testify before as an expert, was

    12          that in Sarajevo?

    13      A.  Most frequently in the court in Konjic and occasionally

    14          in Sarajevo as well.

    15      Q.  Did you provide expert opinions in other courts on the

    16          territory of the former state?

    17      A.  I think I did not, I cannot recall.

    18      Q.  During the direct examination, you said that you were

    19          replaced because of your ethnic background; is that

    20          correct?

    21      A.  It is correct.

    22      Q.  Do you have any document about it?

    23      A.  I do not even have an ID card or any other document.

    24          I am a man without documents, without property and

    25          without a permanent residence.

Page 6101

     1      Q.  Where are you living now, doctor?

     2      MR. TURONE:  Objection, your Honour.  There is no reason why

     3          the witness should say where he lives now.

     4      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I do not see the problem.  Why are you

     5          frightened about where he lives?

     6      MR. TURONE:  There might be a general safety reason for which

     7          the witness might not be willing to say where he lives

     8          now.

     9      JUDGE JAN:  You say this question should not be asked; why

    10          do you suggest an answer?  That is not on.

    11      MR. TURONE:  I simply objected so the witness should have the

    12          opportunity of choosing.

    13      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Is it because he is a protected

    14          witness?

    15      MR. TURONE:  No, your Honour.

    16      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  What was your reason for this?

    17      MR. TURONE:  It is the general policy of the Prosecution

    18          objecting whenever the question to the witness is going

    19          to deal with their real address in public.

    20      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  The Prosecution adopts a policy without

    21          any regard for the rules of the court.

    22      MR. NIEMANN:  Might I be able to address the court, your

    23          Honour, I might be able to assist?

    24      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I do not know how useful your address

    25          will be.

Page 6102

     1      MR. NIEMANN:  May I address, your Honour?

     2      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Yes, you may, but I think it is very

     3          awkward and impertinent.

     4      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honour, throughout the course of the Tadic

     5          hearing, this question was raised a number of times and

     6          the court ruled on a number of occasions that the

     7          current address of the witness was not to be made public

     8          and was not to be divulged.  This was based on the fact

     9          that the court had accepted the situation that existed

    10          in the former Yugoslavia and that if counsel were

    11          permitted to probe into current addresses, then when

    12          these witnesses returned to the former Yugoslavia or to

    13          wherever, because the position could apply anywhere in

    14          the world, that these people could be subjected to

    15          repercussions as a consequence of giving evidence.

    16                The Trial Chamber was satisfied by this and had so

    17          ordered.  Your Honours, this Tribunal has absolutely no

    18          power whatsoever to assist anybody in any part of the

    19          world after they have given their evidence, no power.

    20          It is because of that the only assistance that can be

    21          given is assistance to witnesses when they are here and

    22          that certain cautions need to be taken while here in

    23          order to protect witnesses, because if it cannot happen

    24          here, it cannot happen anywhere.

    25      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Frankly, I have heard you at length, I am

Page 6103

     1          not sure you have any other things to add.  You know

     2          this court has rules for the protection of witnesses

     3          even before they come to give evidence.  You know that.

     4      JUDGE JAN:  But apart from that, the information can be kept

     5          away from the public if the question is important

     6          enough.  He can ask for a closed session if it is

     7          important for him.

     8      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Let me get at the root of this,

     9          I regard as rudeness on the part of a Prosecution

    10          policy, a private policy you made for the guidance of

    11          your Prosecution you impose on the Trial Chamber without

    12          regard to the rules enabling the Trial Chamber to

    13          protect witnesses.  All witnesses are entitled to

    14          protection, and you give reasons why there should be a

    15          greater protection other than that which the rules

    16          provide.

    17                You are now telling the Trial Chamber that every

    18          witness which appears before the Trial Chamber is

    19          entitled not to disclose his current address if there is

    20          a reason for it.

    21      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honours, there exists already,

    22          I understand, a ruling from this Chamber that the

    23          current addresses of the witnesses need not be given in

    24          terms of the handing over of their statements.  This is

    25          merely an extension of that ruling, in my submission.

Page 6104

     1      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  For even witnesses who have not sought

     2          protection?

     3      MR. NIEMANN:  Yes, your Honour, and indeed --

     4      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Actually those rules are not binding,

     5          as far as I am concerned, especially when there is good

     6          reason for telling me there is no need to disclose such

     7          a residence, and in the first place, as a matter of

     8          ordinary judicial ethics, when such questions are asked,

     9          the first thing for any counsel is not necessary to

    10          object to the question, but to point out that the

    11          question might be unfair.  Mr. Turone leaps up as if he

    12          was being pursued by someone else and behaved as if

    13          everything was at stake here.  Your witness came before

    14          this Trial Chamber without any pretence that he was

    15          frightened of anything, and from what he has said, he

    16          has no ID card, he has no papers, he has no residence.

    17          It was very easy for the Trial Chamber to protect him.

    18          He has made it clear that he had no residence, so I did

    19          not see any reason why somebody should invoke a

    20          protection policy which, as far as I am concerned, does

    21          not exist, according to our rules.  If you need

    22          protection for a witness you have to apply for that

    23          protection and give reasons for it.  If any witness who

    24          comes up to the witness chair, and at that stage invokes

    25          the protection, let there be no way of determining

Page 6105

     1          whether the protection was deserving or not and if that

     2          is what any Trial Chamber has decided, the law is very

     3          clear as to the bindingness of the rule of one Trial

     4          Chamber against the other.

     5      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honours, in addition to those matters,

     6          your Honour -- in view of what your Honour has said, we

     7          would ask that there be a short adjournment so we can

     8          consult the witness on this question alone.  No other

     9          issue will be raised with the witness and Mr. Turone will

    10          not speak to the witness.  I will have Ms. McHenry

    11          speak to the witness to ascertain whether or not there

    12          are security concerns.  I then foreshadow, your Honour,

    13          that I will file a general motion before the Chamber

    14          that current names of addresses of all witnesses that

    15          come before the Chamber may not be disclosed unless, of

    16          course, special application is made by the Defence in

    17          order to demonstrate that for some particular reason on

    18          that particular occasion the address is required and

    19          then we can deal with it on an individual basis.

    20      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I do not even see the need for the

    21          application and I think from the earlier answers given

    22          by the witness himself, that question itself is

    23          irrelevant.  He has no identity, nothing, and he can

    24          proceed to any other question which he wanted.  If you

    25          have any proper reason for making an application, the

Page 6106

     1          Trial Chamber will listen to it.  Mr. Olujic, carry on

     2          with another question.

     3      MR. OLUJIC:  Thank you, your Honours.

     4                Dr. Grubac, will you please answer my previous

     5          question, or do you want me to repeat it?

     6      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  No, I have told you, he has given an

     7          earlier answer indicating he has no identity or

     8          residence.  There is no way you can proceed with that

     9          question.  That is fairly clear.

    10      MR. OLUJIC:  Dr. Grubac, in the direct examination you said

    11          that Defence had been organised in Bradina, did you not?

    12      A.  I said that this could be called defence only

    13          conditionally, that it would be more correct to say that

    14          these were village -- this was village guard duty,

    15          protecting the village, the old people, the women and

    16          children from the infiltration of any groups.

    17      Q.  How can you organise defence without military equipment?

    18      A.  I am not a military expert, I am a psychiatrist.

    19      Q.  Let us recall the period in 1995.  Is it true that some

    20          time in 1995 Mr. Zdravko Mucic called you up on the phone

    21          and that you spoke to him on the phone?

    22      A.  It is true that he called me up, it may have been in

    23          1995.

    24      Q.  How long did that conversation last?

    25      A.  Very brief, it was a very brief conversation.

Page 6107

     1      Q.  What did you discuss?

     2      A.  He called me up, I asked him where he was calling from

     3          and why he was calling me.  We asked each other what we

     4          were doing.  He told me that he was in Germany, that he

     5          was having some problems, that he had been charged by

     6          the Muslims and that he thought that the Serbs would

     7          bring charges against him as well.  That was more or

     8          less the conversation.  He also asked about (redacted) and

     9          asked for his telephone number -- no, I am sorry, I do

    10          not know whether he asked for his telephone number.  He

    11          just asked about him.

    12      Q.  Did you give him (redacted) telephone number?

    13      A.  I cannot remember.

    14      Q.  As a psychiatrist, doctor, after leaving the camp did

    15          you assist your former colleague detainees?

    16      A.  You mean in Konjic or later on?

    17      Q.  Later on.

    18      A.  I did.

    19      Q.  Are you in touch with them now?

    20      A.  One might say that I am in touch with some of them.

    21      Q.  Have you listened to their terrible stories at length?

    22      A.  I know those stories even without them, but I have

    23          listened to their stories.

    24      Q.  Is there some kind of an organised association of former

    25          detainees?

Page 6108

     1      A.  Yes, there is, of course.

     2      Q.  Are you a member of that association?

     3      A.  I am a member of that association.

     4      Q.  Are you assisting them in a professional way?

     5      A.  No, I have no such position because the association is a

     6          non-governmental organisation and it is based some

     7          distance away from where I am now living and it is not

     8          possible anyway to organise any kind of aid of that

     9          kind.

    10      Q.  Where is the organisation based?

    11      A.  In Belgrade.

    12      Q.  In the direct examination, doctor, you said that you had

    13          lived in Konjic.  Can you tell us what the share of

    14          Serbs in Konjic was in 1991?

    15      A.  According to the 1991 census, I think 15 or 16 per cent.

    16      Q.  And the Croats?

    17      A.  27 per cent.

    18      Q.  And Muslims?

    19      A.  Muslims, 52 per cent, but that is not all.  There were

    20          5 per cent Yugoslavs and 1 per cent others.

    21      Q.  Is it true what you said, talking to the Prosecution,

    22          that you were replaced as a doctor; is that right,

    23          because that is what it says, because as far as I know,

    24          there is no position of a doctor, you need to have a

    25          post, the name of the post.

Page 6109

     1      A.  I intervened and asked this to be corrected.  Of course,

     2          one cannot be dismissed as a doctor, one can only be

     3          dismissed from the post of director and I think this was

     4          an error and I think the correction was made.

     5      Q.  During your testimony you said that you were slapped at

     6          the beginning of your detention, that is upon your

     7          arrest; is that correct?

     8      A.  Yes, in the MUP building at Musala in Konjic, that is

     9          correct.

    10      Q.  And after that you were never physically mistreated,

    11          were you?

    12      A.  One might say so, but only relatively speaking.

    13      Q.  You also mentioned in your direct examination some

    14          baseball bats.  Do you know how many baseball clubs

    15          there were in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992?

    16      A.  I had never heard of baseball being played in

    17          Bosnia-Herzegovina at all.  I do not even know how you

    18          play the game.

    19      Q.  Do you know how long and heavy a baseball bat is?

    20      A.  Probably the prisoners in Celebici who suffered and were

    21          in touch with Delic's baseball bat could answer that

    22          question better than me.  I am afraid I cannot give you

    23          a precise answer.

    24      Q.  In the course of your direct examination you said that

    25          Mr. Mucic took prisoners from the 3rd March school out of

Page 6110

     1          fear that they should not be hit by enemy shell fire; is

     2          that correct?

     3      A.  He took us from the 3rd March school saying that that

     4          was the reason, yes.

     5      Q.  Do you know what happened to the school afterwards?  Was

     6          it hit by a shell, or what happened to it after the

     7          attack?

     8      A.  I think the school was never hit because later I lived

     9          near the school, less than 100 metres away.

    10      Q.  I would like to hear your impression regarding Mucic's

    11          company; in other words did you feel quite safe in his

    12          company?  You could not expect him to start beating him

    13          out of the blue just like that?

    14      A.  Of that, I was indeed quite sure.

    15      Q.  In spite of all the differences we have it is most

    16          important that we ascertain the truth, so I am asking

    17          you, in view of your detention in the Celebici camp, and

    18          I can only but try to understand you, of course I cannot

    19          fully sympathise because I have never been through it;

    20          can it be said that in the Celebici camp there was a

    21          proper sort of military order with the necessary

    22          hierarchy and chain of command and everything that

    23          implies in the camp?

    24      A.  I think there was some kind of order and that everything

    25          functioned according to pre-agreed rules.

Page 6111

     1      Q.  Was there any raising of the flag and saluting the

     2          flag in the morning in the camp?

     3      A.  In front of the command building where this would

     4          normally take place, there was no such salute, as far as

     5          I can recall.

     6      Q.  Was there an evening roll call?

     7      A.  I do not know, I was a prisoner.  I was not an officer

     8          there, so I do not know these things.

     9      Q.  You described hangar number 22 and who provided the

    10          treatment, you and (redacted), among others.  Did

    11          Dr. Zrinko Brekalo, Dr. Mandic, Dr. Alen, medical

    12          technician known as Ante, a medical technician whose

    13          surname was Pekic, did they also come to that infirmary?

    14      A.  Not to the infirmary.  I think that one of those doctors

    15          did come to the command building once.  Some technicians

    16          did come to remove the plaster from Mrkajic's leg.

    17      Q.  Did they bring some medical equipment?

    18      A.  No, we had no medical equipment.

    19      Q.  Did they bring some medicines?

    20      A.  Perhaps somebody did bring some medicines, but not in

    21          any significant quantity that I could remember, but

    22          certainly they did not bring any equipment because we

    23          did not have any.

    24      Q.  In addition to these people mentioned, did other doctors

    25          come, too, like Dr. Stojanovic, medical technician Zivak,

Page 6112

     1          medical technician Mihajlo?

     2      A.  No, I know these people you have mentioned,

     3          Dr. Stojanovic, Mihajlo Magazin, they never came to the

     4          infirmary while I was there, maybe later.

     5      MR. OLUJIC:  I think it is time for the break so perhaps we

     6          should have our break now your Honour.

     7      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  You will continue after the break at

     8          12.00 pm.

     9      (11.30 am)

    10                              (A short break)

    11      (12.00 pm)

    12      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  You may proceed, Mr. Olujic.

    13      MR. OLUJIC:  Thank you, your Honours.  Dr. Grubac, you have

    14          come to The Hague together with your wife?

    15      A.  Yes.

    16      Q.  I suppose that you are accomodated together?

    17      A.  We are accomodated at the same hotel.

    18      Q.  Tell me, Dr. Grubac, when you were moved from the

    19          3rd March school, was there any shelling of Konjic at

    20          that time when you were transferred?

    21      A.  I did not understand your question.

    22      Q.  After you had been transferred from the 3rd March

    23          school, was there any shelling of Konjic?

    24      A.  I do not know, I was in Celebici after that.

    25      Q.  And were there any injured people that you had to treat

Page 6113

     1          for wounds inflicted by the shelling?

     2      A.  Yes, they brought two injured people from the sports

     3          hall in Musala.

     4      Q.  During the examination-in-chief, you said that in

     5          addition to the other injured they were also Mr. Miro

     6          Golubovic, Jarko Mrkajic, called Zara; is that correct?

     7      A.  Yes, it is.

     8      Q.  Tell me doctor, do you know who they were injured by?

     9      A.  Miro Golubovic or Golub was brought a bit later in

    10          relation to the time when we came to the camp, he was in

    11          building 22 for a hour or two hours, that was his first

    12          visit, then they took him away after ten or fifteen

    13          days, they brought him again to number 22 and he told us

    14          how he had been tortured and inflicted pain in the camp.

    15      Q.  And Zara Mrkajic?

    16      A.  We saw him quite often, Zara, he would come from number

    17          9 to take food and to take food back to the prisoners in

    18          building number 9.

    19      Q.  During the examination-in-chief you said that you never

    20          informed anyone about the health status of the patients,

    21          is that correct?

    22      A.  Yes, it is.

    23      Q.  Did you perhaps inform Mr. Mucic about it?

    24      A.  He never enquired and we never informed him, he was not

    25          interested in the health condition of the patients.

Page 6114

     1      Q.  Did you perhaps inform your Croatian colleagues or the

     2          other doctors who came?

     3      A.  No one came to building number 22 to enquire about the

     4          health of the patients.

     5      Q.  During the examination-in-chief, you said that until

     6          1990 you had been a member of the League of Communists

     7          and after 1990, you became a member of the Movement for

     8          Yugoslavia, is that so?

     9      A.  That is not so.  I will give you a precise answer.  From

    10          1990 and in 1991, we tried to form a group of Muslims,

    11          Croats and Serbs for this movement, but we did not

    12          succeed so we did not register our group nor did we form

    13          that movement.

    14      Q.  How come you did not succeed to do that in a mixed

    15          ethnic community?

    16      A.  People were more interested in the nationalist

    17          ethnically based parties than in this sort of a group or

    18          association.

    19      Q.  You said in your statement that the release papers which

    20          you received were signed in your case by Mr. Zejnil

    21          Delalic.  Do you know of any other releases that took

    22          place in August, for instance, two of your

    23          brothers-in-law who were also in the camp?

    24      A.  No, my brothers-in-law were not released at all, they

    25          were transferred to the Musala building in Konjic and

Page 6115

     1          after a certain period of time one of them was released

     2          and the other one was exchanged to Trnovo.

     3      Q.  Who signed their release papers?

     4      A.  I do not know what you mean by theirs, because one of

     5          them was not released at all.  I do not know whether

     6          there are any signatures on the other.

     7      Q.  Was it Mr. Zdravko Mucic that released the prisoners as

     8          far as you know?

     9      A.  I witnessed him releasing Golubovic precisely from

    10          building number 22 and taking him away.

    11      Q.  Where?

    12      A.  I believe he took him home when he released him from the

    13          camp.  Possibly he took him elsewhere, but he certainly

    14          released him from the camp, I can say that with

    15          precision.

    16      Q.  During the examination-in-chief, you said that when you

    17          were asked what you were by nationality, you said that

    18          you were a Serb and a Montenegran, is that so?

    19      A.  Yes.

    20      Q.  How can that be?  I fail to perceive how you can be

    21          both.

    22      A.  Montenegrans consider that Montenegrans are Serbs.

    23          Until recently I was Yugoslav and I found it much easier

    24          now to say I am a Serb Montenegran.

    25      MR. OLUJIC:  Thank you, doctor, I am through.  Thank you,

Page 6116

     1          your Honours.

     2      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you very much.  Any other

     3          cross-examination?

     4      MR. MORAN:  May it please the court?

     5      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Yes, you may proceed.

     6                         Cross-examined by MR. MORAN

     7      Q.  Thank you, your Honour.  Good afternoon, sir.

     8      A.  Good afternoon.

     9      Q.  My name is Tom Moran and I represent Hazim Delic.  I am

    10          going to ask you a few questions about some of the

    11          things you testified about yesterday and some other

    12          things about the camp.  If you do not understand one of

    13          my questions, will you stop me and ask me to rephrase it

    14          or do whatever it takes so you understand what I am

    15          asking?

    16      A.  Thank you.

    17      Q.  You will do that for me, sir?

    18      A.  I will, sir.

    19      Q.  And also if you just listen to the question that I ask

    20          and just answer the question that is posed to you, this

    21          will go a whole lot easier and a whole lot quicker, and

    22          we will get you home, wherever home is, a whole lot

    23          quicker.  Will you do that for me, doctor?

    24      A.  Thank you, yes.

    25      Q.  By the way, doctor, just so I am straight in my own

Page 6117

     1          mind, in my country it is traditional to call physicians

     2          by their title doctor and I notice that some of the

     3          lawyers from the former Yugoslavia were calling you Mr.

     4          Which is correct and which do you prefer?

     5      A.  It is all the same to me.  Many things do not make much

     6          of a difference to me any more.

     7      Q.  I can understand that doctor.  You worked probably a lot

     8          harder for your doctor's degree than I did for mine, so

     9          why don't I call you doctor?  Would that be fair?

    10      A.  Yes.

    11      Q.  The first thing I am going to ask you, and this goes

    12          back to your initial arrest and your initial detention,

    13          you were taken to the MUP headquarters in Konjic; is

    14          that correct?

    15      A.  Yes, it is.

    16      Q.  And it was at the MUP headquarters at Konjic where all

    17          your property was taken from you.

    18      A.  Yes.

    19      Q.  As far as you know, there was not anybody from the camp

    20          at Celebici that was there involved in the taking of

    21          your property, was there?

    22      A.  That is right.

    23      Q.  Thank you very much on that, doctor.  I wanted to make

    24          sure I was clear in my mind on that.  I would like to

    25          talk to you now a little bit about the conditions in the

Page 6118

     1          infirmary in building 22 while you were there, and some

     2          of the things I think you may have already talked about

     3          and we will go over those in a little bit of detail and

     4          some of the other things I do not think anybody has

     5          talked about.  Let us start off with, like I say, some

     6          of the general living conditions there.  Let us start

     7          off with the food that was served to the patients in

     8          building 22 and how it was served.  Everybody in

     9          building 22 had their own plate and fork, did they not?

    10      A.  No.

    11      Q.  No?  How was the food served to the patients in building

    12          22?

    13      A.  We would bring the food in a soldier's pot.

    14      Q.  Were there plates for the individual patients to eat

    15          from?

    16      A.  No, not all the patients had a plate.  In fact we had no

    17          plates at all, but we had these vessels of army issue,

    18          containers, not one to each patient.  We all had five or

    19          six of them and we all used these five or six; that is

    20          to say not every patient had one of those containers for

    21          himself.

    22      Q.  Were there not a couple of great big large plates of

    23          some kind that you used to serve bread on?

    24      A.  No, there were no plates of that kind.

    25      Q.  Okay.  Let us talk about some of the other conditions.

Page 6119

     1          How about showers?  Showers were available for the

     2          patients in the infirmary, were they not?

     3      A.  No.

     4      Q.  So the patients were not taken to one of the other

     5          buildings and given a chance to shower and use the

     6          toilet?

     7      A.  No, we used the toilet in the other building, in the

     8          command building, and during my stay over a period of

     9          two months we only had a chance to take one shower, only

    10          on one occasion and that, of course, only referred to

    11          the patients who were mobile and the two of us doctors.

    12      Q.  Let me go on to something else.  Let us talk about the

    13          death of Pero Mrkajic, okay?  You testified, I believe,

    14          on direct examination that at the time of his death,

    15          Mr. Delic brought his family in to let them see the body

    16          and to say goodbye to their relative; do you recall

    17          testifying to that?

    18      A.  Yes, he brought not the whole family but two of his sons

    19          who were also imprisoned in the camp, Jarko Mrkajic and

    20          Desimir Mrkajic.

    21      Q.  He did more than that, did he not?  For instance, he got

    22          some candles, do you recall that?

    23      A.  I really do not recall that.  It is possible.

    24      Q.  Okay.  Let me jump a little bit ahead and I think we may

    25          jump back to something also, but while I am thinking

Page 6120

     1          about it.  After your release from Celebici Mr. Delic

     2          took you to your former apartment, did he not?

     3      A.  I apologise, will you please repeat the question?

     4      Q.  Sure.  After you were released someone else was living

     5          in the apartment in Konjic that used to be your

     6          apartment, were they not?

     7      A.  Yes, they were.

     8      Q.  But all of your property was still in your apartment,

     9          all your furniture and your clothing and all of those

    10          things will be left there, right?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      Q.  Did not Mr. Delic after your release take you to your

    13          apartment so that you could retrieve some of your

    14          property, whatever you wanted?

    15      A.  Yes, just to get some things.

    16      Q.  Do you recall whether or not the person that was living

    17          in that apartment refused Mr. Delic entry?

    18      A.  Yes.

    19      Q.  And that Mr. Delic essentially forced his way in so that

    20          you could recover what of your property you wanted to

    21          recover?

    22      A.  That is true.

    23      Q.  When you were living at your father-in-law's apartment

    24          Mr. Delic brought you some flour and oil and detergents

    25          and shampoo, and things like that, did he not?

Page 6121

     1      A.  Yes, my father-in-law, yes, and he did bring me a

     2          package with food, that is correct.

     3      Q.  While he was there you mentioned to him that your

     4          children were sick and needed some medication, did you

     5          not?

     6      A.  It is possible, but I really do not remember.

     7      Q.  Okay.  Perhaps do you recall writing a prescription for

     8          some medicine at your father-in-law's house and having

     9          Mr. Delic go to the -- go some place to get the

    10          medication that you requested?

    11      A.  That is possible and I believe he would have done it,

    12          but I really cannot recall that.

    13      Q.  In fact, Mr. Delic was the source of most of the

    14          medication that you had in the infirmary while you were

    15          there; is that not right?

    16      A.  Yes, it is.

    17      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, I am about set to mention a name,

    18          and it is the name of a protected witness that has been

    19          mentioned in open court.  Do you want to go into private

    20          session so I can tell this person what the name is, and

    21          use the acronym?  How do you want me to proceed, your

    22          Honour?  Whatever you want.

    23      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  We will maintain the protection if it

    24          is a protected witness.

    25      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour then perchance we should go into

Page 6122

     1          private session so I can identify this person.  It will

     2          be 30 seconds.

     3                            (In closed session)

     4      (redacted)

     5      (redacted)

     6      (redacted)

     7      (redacted)

     8      (redacted)

     9                            (In open session)

    10      MR. MORAN:  In fact, you got some medicines from what,

    11          Caritas, did you not, catholic charities?

    12      A.  Possibly, I do not know from whence the medicaments

    13          came, possibly.

    14      Q.  If Witness P said that, you would not disagree with him,

    15          would you?

    16      A.  I would agree, I would not deny it.

    17      Q.  You and the other medical people in the infirmary to get

    18          medicines on a regular basis would give a list to

    19          Mr. Delic, and then he would go wherever he went to try

    20          and get the medicines for you, right?

    21      A.  Yes, in the beginning that was the way it was, right.

    22      Q.  You testified, and frankly Witness P testified also,

    23          that a lot of the time you did not get everything you

    24          asked for, but one of the things that Witness P said,

    25          that most of the things you got were analgesics and

Page 6123

     1          antibiotics and because there were a lot of elderly

     2          people, you got diuretics.  Do you recall that?

     3      A.  Yes, that is true.

     4      Q.  Doctor, are you familiar with the availability of

     5          medicines and medical equipment in the Konjic area

     6          generally, in the summer of 1992?

     7      A.  I would separate the medicaments and medical supplies.

     8          I am not quite sure what you mean by medical

     9          equipment -- I mean by medical equipment apparatus as in

    10          such things -- perhaps you mean also bandages.  I would

    11          like to separate these two.

    12      Q.  By equipment I mean things that are more permanent

    13          things, everything from your stethoscope to a CAT scan

    14          machine, things that you do not use up.

    15      A.  We had no intention and we knew that we would not be

    16          able to get such instruments and such equipment.  What

    17          could be done is for our patients to be taken to a

    18          hospital or to a medical establishment and there use

    19          such equipment, but that was not done, and we never

    20          expected anybody to install a scanner or a X-ray machine

    21          in Celebici, but we did expect it would be possible for

    22          our patients to go to the health centre in the city and

    23          have such examinations performed there, but it did not

    24          happen.

    25      Q.  Doctor, what I was asking you about was the availability

Page 6124

     1          of these kinds of things, and whether you are familiar

     2          with the availability of medical supplies, medicines,

     3          bandages, consumable items and of permanent equipment in

     4          the Konjic area in the summer of 1992, and if you are

     5          not familiar with it, that is just fine.  If you do not

     6          know, you do not know.

     7      A.  I am quite familiar with the situation, I was the

     8          manager of this establishment for a while.  I know how

     9          equipped it was.  I know full well what equipment they

    10          had.  It is quite possible that at the time there was a

    11          shortage of some medicaments or of some other material.

    12      Q.  Do you know how the demands on the hospital in Konjic at

    13          the time you were there, whether it was full of sick

    14          people and wounded people much more than it was designed

    15          for, or whether the patient load was within what would

    16          be considered normal?  If you do, you do, if you do not,

    17          you do not.  If you are not familiar with it, that is

    18          fine.

    19      A.  I think that that could not have been the reason for

    20          these injured people not to be given the same

    21          medicaments and the same material which they needed,

    22          like those people who were treated in the health

    23          centre.  I think they were discriminated against in that

    24          respect and that the reason was not the shortage but the

    25          absence of a will to do so.

Page 6125

     1      Q.  That is fine.  The question I asked was, are you

     2          familiar with the situation.  Are you familiar with the

     3          situation?  Remember, you were in the camp, you may not

     4          know what was going on there.

     5      A.  Although they had told us they would treat us according

     6          to the Geneva Convention, we were in no position to

     7          communicate with the doctors and other staff in the

     8          health centre, so that we had no way to come by such

     9          information.  We did not go there for medicaments.  We

    10          did not consult with the physicians there because we

    11          were not permitted to do so, so we did not know.

    12      Q.  Let us talk about this ledger or log book you kept for

    13          medical records.  I know you do not have access to it

    14          any more, and in fact, at some point within a few weeks

    15          after you were released you stopped going to Celebici

    16          and started go to another facility, the sports hall, is

    17          that not right, so you would have lost track of what

    18          occurred with this ledger?

    19      A.  Yes.

    20      Q.  If Witness P says that one of the reasons that that book

    21          is not available is that the people in the infirmary

    22          were given rations of tobacco but no cigarette paper and

    23          used that ledger for cigarette rolling paper, you would

    24          not disagree with that, would you?

    25      A.  I would not, although I would not exactly advocate the

Page 6126

     1          truthfulness of that claim.

     2      Q.  If you would like I will read it directly from the

     3          transcript to you.

     4      A.  I do not doubt that he said so, and I say I would not

     5          deny it, but I would not exactly subscribe to that claim

     6          myself.

     7      Q.  Simo Jovanovic; he was one of the injured people in the

     8          camp, is that not right?

     9      A.  I am sorry, I did not hear you well.

    10      Q.  Simo Jovanovic; he was one of the injured people in the

    11          camp that you treated.

    12      A.  Treated conditionally speaking, yes.

    13      Q.  He had been held by the MUP for three weeks in Konjic,

    14          had he not?

    15      A.  Yes, he had.

    16      Q.  While he was there he was beaten and mistreated by a man

    17          named Jasmin Guska; is that right?

    18      A.  That is what I was told.

    19      Q.  That is what you believe to be correct?

    20      A.  I have no reason not to believe it.

    21      Q.  Fair enough, doctor.  A couple of other things and then

    22          I think we will be done.  I am not trying to jump

    23          around, but I am going to jump around a little bit.

    24          I am not trying to confuse you.

    25                Let us talk about the village of Bradina for just

Page 6127

     1          a couple of seconds.  In Bradina, that was a major

     2          communications link between Sarajevo and the rest of

     3          Bosnia-Herzegovina, was it not?

     4      A.  Bradina had nothing to do with the blockade of Sarajevo,

     5          which was at the time under total blockade.  But

     6          theoretically, yes, Bradina is along the main

     7          communication between Sarajevo and Mostar, but Sarajevo

     8          at the time was under blockade for other reasons.

     9          Bradina was not of any major significance at the time.

    10      Q.  The main road between Sarajevo and Mostar and the main

    11          railroad go right through the middle of Bradina, do they

    12          not?

    13      A.  The railroad going from Pluzine to Sarajevo does pass

    14          through Bradina, yes.

    15      Q.  The residents of Bradina, for whatever reason, set up

    16          roadblocks inside the city to control who went through

    17          the village on that main road, did they not?

    18      A.  Yes, along the main road, but not the railroad, correct.

    19      Q.  Okay.  Those people that set up those roadblocks were

    20          not officials or authorised to do that by the government

    21          of Bosnia-Herzegovina, were they?

    22      A.  On one side of the tunnel to the south in the direction

    23          of Konjic, the Serbs had put up the roadblock, and at

    24          the other end it was the Muslims and the Croats who had

    25          put up the roadblock.  There were two roadblocks, so it

Page 6128

     1          was not possible to pass either.

     2      Q.  Let us talk about the roadblock that was set up by the

     3          Serbs.  Were they authorised to set up that roadblock by

     4          the regularly constituted government of

     5          Bosnia-Herzegovina?

     6      A.  I do not know if they were authorised and I do not

     7          really know what you mean by a blockade, because you

     8          could pass through those checkpoints probably if you had

     9          some papers.  They were not bunkers or any other kind of

    10          barricade, they were just checkpoints at which

    11          passengers were checked.  The road was not completely

    12          blocked, that is what I am saying.  They were just

    13          checkpoints there.

    14      Q.  Let me go on to something else, doctor.  If the usher

    15          could show the witness Prosecution exhibit number 1,

    16          which is the photo album.  We will go through a couple

    17          of things with it.  (Handed).

    18                Doctor, just so you know what this is, this is an

    19          exhibit prepared by the Dutch police at the request of

    20          the Office of the Prosecutor and it includes pictures

    21          and diagrams of the Celebici camp.  As I understand it,

    22          these pictures and diagrams were made in October of last

    23          year, so there may be some changes, it may not be

    24          exactly like you recall it.  It was about four years

    25          after you left the camp.

Page 6129

     1                One of the things you testified to was that in

     2          building 22 there were some windows across the back and

     3          they were very high and hard to see through; do you

     4          recall testifying that?  You had to get up on something

     5          to see through them.

     6      A.  I apologise, I have not been able to hear what you said

     7          up to now because my earphones have only just come back

     8          on again.  I am sorry, I do apologise, but I really

     9          could not hear you.

    10      Q.  That is fine, doctor.  If you have any problem hearing,

    11          just let me know and we will go over it.  Sometimes we

    12          have technical problems.  In this age of computers,

    13          sometimes they do not work.

    14                This blue book in front of you, and we will go

    15          through it in a second, but just so you know what it is,

    16          it is a series of pictures and diagrams from the

    17          Celebici camp.  It was prepared by some representatives

    18          of the Dutch police department at the request of the

    19          Office of the Prosecutor.  These were taken, the

    20          pictures and diagrams were done in October of last year,

    21          so they may not reflect exactly what you saw whether you

    22          were there, but they should be fairly close.

    23                One of the things you testified about was the

    24          windows in the back of building 22.  You said they were

    25          relatively high as I recall?

Page 6130

     1      A.  I am sorry, I am losing the translation again.  I can

     2          hear it now.

     3      Q.  Can we try another set of earphones?  Those might have a

     4          broken wire in them or something.

     5      A.  I cannot hear the translation into Serbian in my

     6          earphones.  They are not saying anything so I cannot

     7          tell.  No, there is no translation.  Now it is fine.

     8      Q.  It is coming through in Serbian now?

     9      A.  Yes, thank you.

    10      Q.  You recall yesterday that you said that the windows were

    11          very high and you had to get up on something to look

    12          through them; do you recall testifying about that?

    13      A.  Yes, that is so.

    14      Q.  Maybe you can help me with something and if you look at

    15          Prosecution Exhibit 1, pictures 25 and 26, those are

    16          pictures of the -- if you put them on the ELMO please --

    17          those were pictures taken by the Dutch police and

    18          identified as being from the interior of building 22.

    19          25 and 26, they are on page 23, I believe.  Doctor if

    20          you look at those windows in the two pictures you will

    21          see the two windows on the end, the ones that open

    22          out -- we do not have it up on the screen yet for some

    23          reason.

    24      A.  I can see the pictures.  I can see the pictures

    25          directly, so I do not have to look at the monitor.

Page 6131

     1          I can see the pictures better, the photographs.

     2      Q.  Good.  I would prefer that you look at them directly.

     3          It is a lot easier that way.

     4      A.  Yes.

     5      Q.  You will see that the two windows at the ends, the left

     6          end and right end, currently have clear glass in them

     7          and all the windows in the middle have some kind of

     8          frosted glass that you cannot see through.  Was it that

     9          way when you were there in 1992 or was all that frosted

    10          glass that you cannot see through?

    11      A.  It is possible that it was frosted, so we only looked

    12          through one.  It is possible, I cannot give you an exact

    13          answer.

    14      Q.  So it is possible that those windows, you would have had

    15          to look through the crack in the top when it was open,

    16          that would be the only way you could see out?

    17      A.  And/or through one of the panes.  It is possible.

    18      Q.  The way building 22 is set up, it is set up in kind of a

    19          depression in the ground, is it not, where some ground

    20          was cut away and there is a hill behind it that comes up

    21          fairly high, maybe even to the level of the windows?  If

    22          you look at the pictures on the previous page, pictures

    23          23 and 24, that may help your memory.

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  If you look also at picture 7, it is from a different

Page 6132

     1          angle, it is on page 13, I believe, you can see that

     2          high hill.  Do you see what I am talking about, doctor?

     3      A.  Yes, I can more or less understand.  You are saying that

     4          it was not possible to see another building from that

     5          window.  It could be seen.  I did say it was rather high

     6          up and we probably had to look through the window at a

     7          particular angle, but we could see it regardless of the

     8          hill.

     9      Q.  Doctor, what I am suggesting is that that hill would

    10          obstruct your vision of other areas, and also --

    11      A.  No, we could not see other areas from that window, but

    12          we could see number 9, that is true.  No other building

    13          could we see from that window except number 9.

    14      Q.  Doctor, yesterday you were asked about, and I do not

    15          remember whether it was on direct or on

    16          cross-examination, that television interview that we saw

    17          this morning.  When you were asked about it yesterday

    18          you said that during the interview you were truthful

    19          about some things and not truthful about others.  Do you

    20          remember saying that doctor?

    21      A.  Yes, that is correct.

    22      Q.  So if you said that you were truthful about some matters

    23          in that interview, that is something that I can rely on

    24          and the judges can rely on as being what you think is

    25          truthful, right?

Page 6133

     1      A.  Yes.

     2      Q.  The reason I say that is, let me read to you what you

     3          said, and so that the Prosecution or the court can have

     4          it if they want to, it is on the LiveNote from

     5          yesterday, it is page 82, line 19 through page 83

     6          line 2.  That is on the LiveNote, I do not have the

     7          final transcript yet.  You will have to pull it up on

     8          the computer.  I am going to read this and I am sure

     9          that if I read it wrong, someone from the Prosecution

    10          will stop me.  I have handwritten it off the computer.

    11          Let me read this and see if you agree this is what you

    12          testified to.  According to this transcript, you said:

    13                "I answered truthfully when I said that the

    14          injured were there, who had been injured and beaten in

    15          the camp and in the sports hall in Konjic.  As for other

    16          questions, whether we had the medicines, how we felt,

    17          what the situation was like, that I did not answer

    18          correctly."

    19                Do you remember saying that?

    20      A.  Yes, I do.

    21      MR. MORAN:  Pass the witness, your Honour.  Thank you very

    22          much, doctor.

    23      MR. ACKERMAN:  May I proceed, your Honour?

    24      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Yes, you may proceed.

    25                       Cross-examined by MR. ACKERMAN

Page 6134

     1      Q.  Good afternoon, Dr. Grubac.

     2      A.  Good afternoon.

     3      Q.  My name is John Ackerman, I represent Esad Landzo in

     4          this case.

     5      A.  I understand that.

     6      Q.  I want to begin my questions of you by directing your

     7          attention to that period of time in Konjic when the

     8          problems were just beginning, before April 1992, okay?

     9          Do you know the period of time I am referring to?

    10      A.  Fine.

    11      Q.  Can you hear me?

    12      A.  Yes, I hear you well.

    13      Q.  What you had told the Office of the Prosecutor on one of

    14          the occasions you talked with them was that prior to

    15          that time, there were three political parties

    16          representing the three nationalities, the ethnic

    17          nationalities, the parties being the SDS, the SDA and

    18          the HDZ that were all active in the Konjic area,

    19          correct?

    20      A.  Yes, but that is not quite precise enough because there

    21          were some other parties as well, but it is true that

    22          those three did exist.

    23      Q.  The thing that started causing some alarm at least in

    24          your mind and certainly that of many others was that as

    25          you told the Office of the Prosecutor, each of those

Page 6135

     1          parties, the three that I mentioned, had started to arm

     2          their members.

     3      A.  I do not recall stating that exactly in my answer.

     4      Q.  I would like to have you take a look at the Serbo-Croat

     5          version of your statement, which I will hand to you,

     6          with the usher's assistance.  (Handed).

     7      THE REGISTRAR:  The document is marked D20/4.

     8      MR. ACKERMAN:  I think you should find on the first page,

     9          beginning with the statement about where you were born

    10          as you move down into the second, third and

    11          fourth paragraphs, your statement is about the

    12          establishment of the SDA, the HDZ and the SDS and how

    13          you tell the Office of the Prosecutor, or at least you

    14          say in this statement at one point, and here is the

    15          language I am trying to direct you to:

    16                "At that time the majority of the Serbs had left

    17          the town of Konjic, they had fled to the surrounding

    18          villages or to Serb held territory.  All three parties

    19          had started to arm their members."

    20                Do you find that language?

    21      A.  No, I have not found it -- oh yes, I have found it now.

    22          Yes, I see it.

    23      Q.  At least that was your statement on the day that you

    24          made that statement, that was your memory of what had

    25          happened during that time in Konjic?

Page 6136

     1      A.  Yes.  I still think it is correct, but I could not say

     2          with any certainty how it was done because I never was

     3          present when such arms were procured.  So someone might

     4          be able to say that it is unreliable because I was not a

     5          witness, but I still think that that was so, though

     6          I could not indicate how and when this was done.

     7          I could not testify to the arming of any party, but I do

     8          think that that was so.

     9      Q.  You certainly know there came a time when there were

    10          lots of guns around in the hands of lots of different

    11          people; that you know for sure?

    12      A.  Yes, that is true.

    13      Q.  One can easily conclude from that that somebody armed a

    14          lot of people from each of these three groups at some

    15          point?

    16      A.  That is true.

    17      Q.  From what you told us at the very beginning of your

    18          testimony yesterday, I gained an impression about you

    19          that I would like you to either confirm or deny for me.

    20          It is my impression that prior to the problems that

    21          began to develop throughout Yugoslavia in the late 1980s

    22          and early 1990s that you were a person who considered

    23          yourself a citizen of Yugoslavia, that you were

    24          committed to that federalist notion of multi ethnicity,

    25          and that the development and growth of the nationalist

Page 6137

     1          parties and the nationalist agenda were alarming to you,

     2          and something you thought was inappropriate and

     3          improper; is that a fair statement?

     4      A.  It is.

     5      Q.  I do not want to engage in any kind of a political

     6          debate with you, so please understand that is not the

     7          force of this next question.  The force of the next

     8          question is really this: you would have been opposed and

     9          you were opposed to any parties, any representatives of

    10          any of those nationalist parties that were seeking by

    11          whatever means, propaganda or otherwise, to stir up

    12          those nationalist feelings to the detriment of the

    13          Yugoslav Federation; that is also a fair statement, is

    14          it not?

    15      A.  It is.

    16      Q.  I want to move just a moment to a few questions about

    17          yesterday.  After you completed your testimony

    18          yesterday, between then and the time you arrived here to

    19          give your testimony this morning, could you tell us the

    20          names of all the persons with whom you discussed your

    21          experiences here yesterday, the kinds of questions you

    22          were asked, the kind of responses you gave, things of

    23          that nature.  Who did you talk to about your testimony

    24          over the course of the evening?

    25      A.  I may have spoken to some people regarding simple

Page 6138

     1          technical matters.  I did not discuss the substance of

     2          the trial with anyone.

     3      Q.  Who would you have talked to regarding simple technical

     4          matters and what do you mean by simple technical

     5          matters?

     6      A.  If one of the witnesses asked me "when will you be

     7          going, tomorrow?  Am I going to appear tomorrow?" That

     8          sort of thing.

     9      Q.  So you are in communication with other people that are

    10          waiting to come and testify here?

    11      A.  I see them at the hotel.

    12      Q.  Did you have any communication with persons outside

    13          The Hague by telephone or by any other means of

    14          communication yesterday evening?

    15      A.  No.  Since I arrived in The Hague I have not called

    16          anyone up on the telephone, not even my relatives, my

    17          children.

    18      Q.  Did you have any conversations with representatives of

    19          the Office of the Prosecutor, either the attorneys or

    20          any of the investigators regarding your testimony

    21          yesterday or in preparation for your testimony today?

    22      A.  No, I did not.

    23      Q.  During the cross-examination of you by Ms. Residovic,

    24          she went into some detail with you and you responded

    25          about a command structure in Konjic during the time of

Page 6139

     1          the conflict, during the time that you were detained in

     2          Celebici and during that period of time after when you

     3          were still living in the Konjic area.  You named a

     4          number of people:  Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic, Jasmin Guska,

     5          Esad Ramic, Dinko Zebic, Selko Niksic, Zvonko Zovko,

     6          Midhat Pirkic, Jasna Dzumhur, Zejnil Delalic, Zdravko

     7          Mucic, Hazim Delic.  That was a list, as a matter of

     8          fact, that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor when

     9          you originally gave your statement to them; you are

    10          familiar with those people?

    11      A.  Yes, I am.

    12      Q.  Those were for the most part people who you had known

    13          prior to the conflict erupted in the Konjic area?

    14      A.  Yes.

    15      Q.  What I would like to ask you to do for us now is to give

    16          us pretty much the same kind of list of the persons who

    17          were the leaders and held leadership, positions in the

    18          SDS at the time of the outbreak of hostilities in the

    19          Konjic area or immediately prior thereto.  Who were

    20          those leaders?

    21      A.  First those names are not names of people from the SDA

    22          or the HDZ, so I do not know why you are comparing that

    23          list with people belonging to the SDS.  These are not

    24          people from a single party at all.  These are people

    25          from different political parties.

Page 6140

     1      Q.  I probably inartfully asked my question.  Who among that

     2          group that you listed, the eleven persons that you

     3          listed, would you identify as members of the SDS?

     4      A.  I do not know what parties those people belong to,

     5          I just said that those people were members of certain

     6          municipal social bodies.  I did not refer to them as

     7          members of different parties -- I do not know which

     8          parties those people belong to.

     9      Q.  When we first started this process, the first thing you

    10          and I talked about was the existence of those three

    11          parties, the specific three parties in the Konjic area,

    12          the SDA, the SDS and the HDZ.  The other thing you and

    13          I agreed to was that there was the arming of members of

    14          those parties, at least that was apparent at some point

    15          as the conflict moved along.  What I am trying to find

    16          out from you now is, with your broad knowledge of who

    17          was involved in what in the Konjic area, your knowledge

    18          of everybody there and everybody's knowledge of you and

    19          your prominence in the community, what I am trying to

    20          get from you now is who were the people who were in

    21          leadership positions with regard to the SDS, just

    22          individuals, who are they?

    23      A.  I think that the President of the SDS was Kuljanin,

    24          I cannot remember his first name and I do not know

    25          anyone else belonging to that party.

Page 6141

     1      MR. ACKERMAN:  I think maybe we should break, your Honour.

     2      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I think so.  We wish to have a break

     3          and then return at 2.30.

     4      (1.00 pm)

     5                         (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)





















Page 6142

     1      (2.30 pm)

     2      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Mr. Ackerman, I think you may proceed.

     3      MR. ACKERMAN:  Thank you, your Honour.  Before I proceed,

     4          there is a matter I want to make a part of the record in

     5          case anything comes up in the future about it.  During

     6          our lunch break I was asked by defendant Mucic to visit

     7          with him for a moment.  That conversation had to do with

     8          his concern about the health of Mr. Greaves, which

     9          I happen to know something about.  I made it clear that

    10          I could not do that without the permission of his

    11          counsel Mr. Olujic.  I secured that permission and only

    12          spoke with him with permission from his counsel.  I have

    13          been criticised for having done that and been told I am

    14          not permitted to do that.  I think that is not the

    15          case.  I think any of us can give any of the others

    16          permission to talk to our clients if we wish to do so.

    17          I just want Mr. Olujic to confirm for the record that

    18          I did not speak to his client without his permission.

    19      MR. OLUJIC:  Your Honours, yes, it is all right.  My

    20          colleague acted legatus and it is all right.

    21      MR. ACKERMAN:  Thank you for permitting me to put that on the

    22          record.

    23      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  It is a difference in ethics,

    24          I suppose, in the understanding of each counsel can be

    25          of assistance to the other.

Page 6143

     1      MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honour, I would like to go into private

     2          session for a moment for the next few questions I want

     3          to ask this witness.

     4      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  We can go into private session.

     5                            (In closed session)

     6      (redacted)

     7      (redacted)

     8      (redacted)

     9      (redacted)

    10      (redacted)

    11      (redacted)

    12      (redacted)

    13      (redacted)

    14      (redacted)

    15      (redacted)

    16      (redacted)

    17      (redacted)

    18      (redacted)

    19      (redacted)

    20      (redacted)

    21      (redacted)

    22      (redacted)

    23      (redacted)

    24      (redacted)

    25      (redacted)

Page 6144













    13   pages 6144 to 6156 in closed session













Page 6157

     1      (redacted)

     2      (redacted)

     3      (redacted)

     4      (redacted)

     5      (redacted)

     6      (redacted)

     7      (redacted)

     8      (redacted)

     9      (redacted)

    10      (redacted)

    11                             (In open session)

    12      MR. ACKERMAN:  Mr. Grubac, we have gone back into public

    13          session now.  Let me ask you this, if I ask you any more

    14          questions that you would feel more comfortable answering

    15          in private session, you just let me know.

    16      A.  Thank you.

    17      Q.  Some time in April, and I have failed to make a note of

    18          the date here, so you can remind me, but some time in

    19          April 1992 you moved your children to Bradina?

    20      A.  Yes, I did.

    21      Q.  About when was that?

    22      A.  Mid April.

    23      Q.  The reason you moved your children to Bradina was you

    24          were concerned for your safety living in Konjic?

    25      A.  The building I was living in virtually everyone had

Page 6158

     1          left, only one of my colleagues stayed behind, and we

     2          thought perhaps it would be better to take them away

     3          some place.  The only place we had was my in-laws' house

     4          and that is where we took them.

     5      Q.  But you knew that Serbs were leaving Konjic in large

     6          numbers and going to other locations, many to Bradina;

     7          you know that, did you not?

     8      A.  Not just Serbs, everybody was leaving Konjic, going in

     9          various directions, Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro.

    10      Q.  That was because everybody expected that things were

    11          going to turn hot in terms of war rather soon?

    12      A.  That is just it.

    13      Q.  And no one would want to stay in a place that might

    14          likely be a battlefield in the very near future?

    15      A.  Most probably people who did not wish to take part in

    16          any of that wanted to go and did go, if they had

    17          anywhere to go to.

    18      Q.  We know, for instance, that the population of Bradina at

    19          least doubled, if not more than doubled, during those

    20          days?

    21      A.  That is correct.

    22      Q.  Before you yourself left Konjic for the last time, and

    23          now I am talking about those days you talked about

    24          6th or 7th May, in fact there was some shelling that

    25          went on in the village of Konjic, the city of Konjic,

Page 6159

     1          correct?

     2      A.  I was told that the day before or that day in the

     3          afternoon, it was a holiday, Saint George's day or

     4          something, that two or three shells did hit Konjic and

     5          after that, I could not go to Konjic again.

     6      MR. ACKERMAN:  Mr. Grubac, I would like to take the

     7          opportunity now for you to look at a segment of video.

     8          Your Honours, I have informed the Prosecutors of what

     9          these segments I want to show him are.  They are

    10          segments that are filmed in Konjic during these early

    11          days in May that he is talking about and I want to ask

    12          him if he can recognise things depicted in these films

    13          and buildings and things of that nature.  I have a copy

    14          for the Registry to enter as an exhibit which I would

    15          present to the Registry now.  The technical people have

    16          a copy to play.  I think the appropriate thing to do,

    17          Mr. Grubac, is for you to simply look at all three of

    18          these segments at once.  The questions I am going to be

    19          interested in asking you about these segments primarily

    20          deal with what it is you might be able to recognise,

    21          whether you see things in these segments that are

    22          familiar to you, whether you see the area where the

    23          3rd March school was located, and with that specific

    24          issue, as you are watching it, try to make a note of

    25          about where it was, because we might want to go back to

Page 6160

     1          it.  Okay?

     2      A.  Yes, fine.

     3      MR. ACKERMAN:  Could I ask what the tape has been marked.

     4      THE REGISTRAR:  It is marked as D21/4.

     5      MR. ACKERMAN:  I would offer that into evidence at this

     6          point.

     7      MR. TURONE:  Your Honour, if we could see the video before

     8          that, please?

     9      MR. ACKERMAN:  That would be fine.  I have no problem with

    10          just having it played.  I will just ask the technical

    11          people now to go ahead and play it.

    12      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I suppose after our viewing it, we will

    13          see whether there is any objection.

    14                            (Video tape played)

    15      A.  May I ask, what is it, an aerial film or what is it?

    16          What kind of a tape is this?

    17      Q.  This tape is done with a home video camera, the first

    18          part you saw was obviously a cemetery.  This appears to

    19          be someone's home.  The next two segments you see will

    20          be from TV Konjic.  This second segment is coming now

    21          and that would be a piece of film from TV Konjic.

    22                              (Video played).

    23                This segment was filmed on May 7th, which may have

    24          been the day you left or the day after.  I am not sure

    25          and I do not think you are.

Page 6161

     1                            (Video tape stopped)

     2      MR. ACKERMAN:  Now I think you have seen them all.  The first

     3          question I want to ask you is; you recognise those

     4          pictures as coming from Konjic, do you not?

     5      A.  No, truly, it is not easy to recognise this as being

     6          Konjic, except for one single segment passing true Tito

     7          Street, when you can see the street and the municipal

     8          building, I think this was in the second segment.  The

     9          other shots are close-ups, details by which it is really

    10          not possible to tell what town is in question, but in

    11          the second part of the film I did recognise Tito Street

    12          because I saw the assembly building and that part of the

    13          town.  As for the rest, it is not possible to recognise

    14          anything.  The first part you can see it is a cemetery,

    15          but I cannot recognise that it is the Konjic cemetery.

    16          And in the second segment only the sequence showing Tito

    17          Street and the assembly building and part of a cafe

    18          called Prenj and the rest are just close-ups by which it

    19          is not possible to conclude what town is involved.  Too

    20          many close-ups.  There are no broad pictures, you just

    21          see roofs, staircases, windows, by which it is not

    22          possible -- after all, Konjic is not such a small town

    23          for one to be able to recognise a roof or a staircase.

    24          There are no symbols of Konjic, there are no bridges.

    25          There is no city cafe.  There is no river Nerveta, so it

Page 6162

     1          is difficult for me to recognise.  Perhaps if you could

     2          indicate a particular detail, except for this second

     3          segment, as I said, where you can see the Prenj Cafe and

     4          the Tito Road.

     5      Q.  You have no reason to believe it is other than that

     6          I have represented, do you?  You have no reason to

     7          believe it is anywhere besides Konjic?

     8      A.  All I can say is that you yourself said it may have been

     9          taken on May 7th and I thinks the last day I was in

    10          Konjic was 6th May.  This may have been filmed later,

    11          but on May 6th Konjic did not look like this.  I am

    12          quite sure of that.  Anyone who was there at the time

    13          can confirm this.  On May 7th, it is possible, but by

    14          then I was no longer in Konjic.

    15      Q.  I think you have already told us that you were not aware

    16          that the JNA airforce had attacked Konjic on 7th May?

    17      A.  I do not know when I said that the JNA airforce had

    18          attacked Konjic.  I know that there were some planes

    19          flying over, but that was not in May, that must have

    20          been in April, but I am not aware that the airforce

    21          attacked Konjic at all.

    22      Q.  You misunderstood my question.  My question was: I think

    23          you have already told us you were not aware that Konjic

    24          was attacked on May 7th by the JNA; you did not know

    25          that.

Page 6163

     1      A.  On May 7th I probably was not in Konjic.  I was probably

     2          in Konjic on May 6th, so if anybody did bomb Konjic on

     3          7th May, then I was not aware of it because it means

     4          that I was there on 6th May, but if I was there on

     5          7th May, then it was not bombed on 7th May.

     6      Q.  And if it was bombed on 7th May, you were not there,

     7          right?

     8      A.  Yes, I was not there.

     9      Q.  That second part that you have talked about and you

    10          recognise the Tito Street part of it, that is pretty

    11          close to the 3rd March school, is it not?

    12      A.  No, it is quite at the other end of town.

    13      Q.  Did you see any part of the tape that you recognised as

    14          being near that 3rd March school?

    15      A.  No, I was not able to recognise anything.  If you wish,

    16          you can play it again, but I could not recognise a

    17          single detail that would lead me to believe that it was

    18          March 3rd.  All schools are rather similar, you know, in

    19          Konjic, but there was nothing to indicate that any one

    20          of those buildings was a school.  They were close-ups,

    21          as I said, so it was difficult to tell what it was.

    22      Q.  I take it that you did see in all three of those

    23          segments evidence of shelling, bomb damage, artillery

    24          damage, whatever it is, you saw evidence that that had

    25          gone on?

Page 6164

     1      A.  That is evident.

     2      Q.  In the first part did you see the name Dzumhur on one of

     3          the headstones?  Did you notice that?

     4      A.  It went fast, but I think you are right, it did say

     5          Dzumhur.

     6      Q.  That is a name you know in Konjic, is it not?

     7      A.  Yes, Dzumhur is an old family of Konjic.

     8      Q.  That kind of damage and destruction that we saw in that

     9          film is exactly the kind of thing you were trying to get

    10          your children away from.

    11      A.  Of course.  Nobody would want to attend this kind of

    12          destruction.

    13      Q.  I take it you know, because of your experience and

    14          training, that living in that kind of an environment

    15          where shells are falling out of the sky, people are

    16          being killed, buildings are being blown up, not only is

    17          a threat to one's likelihood, physical well-being, but

    18          also can have profound mental effects on people.

    19      A.  Of course.  I know that as a human being and also as a

    20          doctor, a psychiatrist.

    21      Q.  You know that sometimes people even develop what in

    22          World War II we called shell-shock and what I think we

    23          now call post-traumatic stress disorder from being

    24          subjected to repeated attacks on their life, shelling or

    25          whatever?

Page 6165

     1      A.  Yes, post-traumatic stress.  These are stresses which

     2          have a certain symptomology and which last for a certain

     3          period of time.

     4      Q.  I take it in, during and since the war there in the

     5          former Yugoslavia, you have seen a number of people who

     6          were suffering from that kind of a problem?

     7      A.  Yes, I have seen quite a number of people with

     8          post-traumatic stress disorder, not just adults but

     9          children as well.

    10      Q.  At this point, now that we have seen the film, I do not

    11          want to ask any more questions about it, your Honours,

    12          I would like to offer it in evidence.

    13      MR. TURONE:  Your Honour, we have no objection that the

    14          segment the witness actually recognised be introduced in

    15          evidence, but we would just ask for clarification of

    16          whether the witness recognises shellings and damages and

    17          if so the date on which he might have seen all this.

    18          Thank you very much.

    19      MR. ACKERMAN:  If I understand the objection, your Honour,

    20          I am willing to have the technical people remake that

    21          tape so that it contains only the second segment which

    22          the witness said he could recognise Konjic in, and the

    23          date of that segment is May 5th, I think, or 6th.  It is

    24          May 6th, 1992 and it came from TV Konjic.  With that

    25          change, I will withdraw what I have given to the

Page 6166

     1          Registrar right now, with the understanding that I will

     2          bring back a tape that has had the --

     3      A.  May I say something, your Honours?  May I be allowed to

     4          speak?

     5      MR. ACKERMAN:  The last time I said okay, your Honour, it was

     6          a mistake.  I think this witness is not one who is here

     7          to make a political speech, but probably has something

     8          to add to the issue of what is on the tape.

     9      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Yes, you can say what you wish to.

    10      A.  I just wanted to say that I claim that on May 6th,

    11          Konjic did not look like it is shown on these segments.

    12          After that, I do not know, because until May 6th I was

    13          in Konjic and Konjic did not look like it appears to be

    14          on this film, regardless of the date on the film.

    15      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I understand you.  You have a better

    16          knowledge of Konjic and which part of Konjic is being

    17          presented.

    18      MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honour, the dates on the film, of course,

    19          were recorded electronically.  We could not have put

    20          them on today or yesterday or any other time.  They were

    21          there at the time they were filmed.  They were filmed by

    22          the television station in Konjic.  I am sure the date is

    23          right, the films were taken on 5th, 6th and 7th May, and

    24          the one that he recognised was the one taken on May

    25          6th.  That one does not show nearly as profound the

Page 6167

     1          damage as the third segment on the 7th, which was after

     2          the air attack on Konjic, which did a significant amount

     3          of damage.  The second segment does show damage which

     4          clearly came from shelling, but not from the air

     5          attacks, so I think the second one is probably

     6          relatively consistent with the witness's testimony.  It

     7          is the one he recognises.  He does remember seeing the

     8          name Dzumhur on the gravestones in the cemetery, and

     9          that that is a long time Konjic family, so I think what

    10          I would offer is segments 1 and 2, and I will have

    11          segment 3 removed from the tape and re-submitted with

    12          that change, and that would be my offer.

    13      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Have you any objection on the offer of

    14          the two segments 1 and 2?

    15      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Your Honours, may I be of assistance?

    16      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Yes.

    17      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Mr. Delalic's Defence would have shown this

    18          second segment to one of the witnesses.  I am not sure

    19          it was compiled in the same way as my colleague has

    20          done, and the witness recognised the old part of town

    21          which are can on this segment, so I think that part of

    22          the film which is already in evidence can help to take a

    23          decision on the admission of the whole segment if it is

    24          combined with the recognition given by this witness.

    25      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, if I could add something also?  This

Page 6168

     1          witness has seen this and said that this is the reason

     2          he left Konjic, so that his family would not see this.

     3          So this goes to explain his motives for leaving Konjic

     4          and moving to Bradina.

     5      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  That is a good interpretation.

     6      A.  It is not true, that is not what I said.

     7      MR. TURONE:  Your Honour, we believe that with the

     8          clarification given by the witness, and keeping in mind

     9          the clarification given by the witness, we have no

    10          objection.

    11      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  All right, thank you.  That is no

    12          objection in admitting segments 1 and 2 because the

    13          witness limits it to the date 6th May.

    14      MR. TURONE:  Yes, your Honour, and as I say, on the basis of

    15          the clarification given by the witness.

    16      JUDGE JAN:  You left Konjic on 6th May.  What time did you

    17          leave?

    18      A.  Around 1 pm.

    19      JUDGE JAN:  So it could have been in the afternoon?

    20      A.  Yes.

    21      MR. ACKERMAN:  You know, do you not, that after you left

    22          Konjic, for a significant period of time Konjic was

    23          subject to some rather heavy bombardment?

    24      A.  Until 28th May I had no contact with Konjic, nor did we

    25          receive any information as to what was happening in

Page 6169

     1          Konjic.

     2      Q.  After that, you were released from Celebici, you went to

     3          live in an apartment in Konjic, you were in Konjic every

     4          day for a significant period of time before you actually

     5          finally fled the area, and you saw the damage at that

     6          time that had been done and was being done in the Konjic

     7          area, so as you sit here today you know that over a

     8          period of time significant shelling was done of the

     9          Konjic area and significant damage done to the city.

    10          You know that, do you not?

    11      A.  That is correct, that is correct.

    12      Q.  All right.

    13      A.  But you are asking me for the dates 5th and 6th May.

    14          Konjic was not shelled on those dates.

    15      Q.  I have obviously confused you by not being clear.  My

    16          last questions were into much later times, you know that

    17          over the entire period of the conflict that Konjic was

    18          shelled severely, correct?

    19      A.  Yes.

    20      Q.  At no time that you were at Celebici did Celebici become

    21          a victim of the shelling?

    22      A.  Celebici was not shelled.

    23      Q.  In terms of an area that was being fairly heavily

    24          shelled, Celebici was a relatively safe place, was it

    25          not?

Page 6170

     1      A.  One might put it that way.

     2      Q.  You would certainly agree that in terms of shelling, and

     3          I am only talking about shelling, that Celebici was a

     4          much safer place than 3rd March school, which sat in the

     5          middle of a zone that was being frequently shelled,

     6          whether it was hit itself or not; correct?

     7      A.  Theoretically that is correct, but it does not mean to

     8          say that somebody who can shell the 3rd March school

     9          could not also have shelled Celebici, but it is a fact

    10          that Celebici was not shelled.

    11      Q.  If you know where the artillery was located, and I do

    12          not know whether you do or not, but if you do, you know

    13          it was located in a position where they could not hit

    14          Celebici from where they were, but could only hit

    15          Konjic; do you know that?

    16      A.  I could only know if there was artillery in Konjic.  How

    17          could I know where anybody's artillery was outside

    18          Konjic?  I am not an artillery man, I am just a doctor.

    19      Q.  I am thinking perhaps you could have learned afterwards

    20          rather than at the time.  You might have learned

    21          afterwards where the Serb artillery especially

    22          placements were up toward Borci, known exactly where

    23          they were shelling from.  Do you know that now?

    24      A.  No, I did not learn that.  My orientation was more to

    25          examine why the war had occurred among men, whether men

Page 6171

     1          had provoked it, what was the reason that prompted them

     2          to use artillery at all.

     3      Q.  You moved your children out of Konjic to a place that

     4          you believed would be safe from that kind of shelling,

     5          and that was a wise move, I take it, on your part, to

     6          get them away from where the shelling was going on at

     7          the time?

     8      A.  It is not quite correct, because Bradina was shelled on

     9          25th and 26th May.

    10      Q.  I understand, but at the time you made that move that

    11          seemed to be the safe alternative for your children?

    12      A.  It did not when I took my children to Bradina there was

    13          no shelling.  Maybe it was an instinct that I was led

    14          by, because everyone was taking their children away.

    15          I really did not think about shelling.  This was mid

    16          April.

    17      Q.  You certainly were not moving them to a place you

    18          thought would be more dangerous than where they were?

    19      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I thought he gave us his reasons for

    20          taking them to Bradina.  That was where he had his

    21          wife's parents.  That is what he said.  It was the only

    22          place he had suitable accommodation.

    23      MR. ACKERMAN:  Is that true, that you had no other choice, it

    24          was either Bradina or Konjic?

    25      A.  At the time I did not have any choice and I did not wish

Page 6172

     1          to leave the territory of Konjic because I thought there

     2          was no need for me to leave.  I do have a family home in

     3          Montenegro where I was born, but I did not think it

     4          necessary to go there at the time.

     5      Q.  Do you have a house in Ostrozac?

     6      A.  I do, I have a weekend home.  It is the municipality of

     7          Jablanica, but it is closer to Konjic than the town of

     8          Jablanica.  To be more precise, I had a country home

     9          there.

    10      Q.  I think you told us earlier today that after you left

    11          Celebici you lived in the apartment of your wife's

    12          parents, I believe, in Konjic, and that apartment was

    13          quite near the 3rd March elementary school; is that

    14          true?

    15      A.  It is true.

    16      Q.  Had you become sufficiently familiar with Mr. Landzo by

    17          that time that you would have recognised him outside

    18          Celebici?

    19      A.  I think I would not recognise Landzo even now, and also

    20          I could not recognise him then.

    21      MR. ACKERMAN:  Mr. Grubac, I have enjoyed meeting you and

    22          I want to thank you for being here.  I hope everything

    23          goes well for you in the future.  I have no more

    24          questions.  Thank you.

    25      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Any re-examination?

Page 6173

     1      MR. TURONE:  Your Honour, no further questions in

     2          re-examination.  Thank you.

     3      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you very much, Dr. Grubac.

     4          I think that is all for you.  You are discharged.

     5      A.  Thank you.

     6                          (The witness withdrew)

     7      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  May we have your next witness?

     8      MS. McMURREY:  Your Honour, I am sorry, if I might just

     9          address one issue quickly before the next witness is

    10          brought in?  We have discussed it with the Prosecution,

    11          and everybody on the Defence team and the Prosecution is

    12          aware that there is a rumour, and we do not have fact of

    13          this, that one witness may have spoken and given another

    14          interview on Belgrade television last night, and just as

    15          a precaution and just to make sure that maybe they had

    16          the warning ahead of time, I spoke to the Victim and

    17          Witnesses Unit today.

    18                They are not giving our witnesses the same Rule

    19          90(d) warning that was given in the Tadic case.  I have

    20          spoken to the Prosecution about this warning.  They have

    21          no objections if this court orders that all witnesses,

    22          before testifying in this case, are also given the same

    23          warning that the Tadic case gave to prevent

    24          contamination of witness testimony.

    25                I have only one copy from the Victim and Witnesses

Page 6174

     1          Unit here to offer the court.  I would like to ask

     2          that -- the Victim and Witness Unit never gave it to our

     3          witnesses because they thought it had to be an order

     4          from this court, so we are asking now that this court

     5          consider this warning, so we do not have any -- or maybe

     6          can suppress some of the problems we have had with

     7          possible witness tampering that it might be helpful in

     8          this case also to have this Rule 90(d) warning given to

     9          all the witnesses before they testify in this case.

    10                If I might have the usher offer the one copy that

    11          we have from the Victim and Witness Unit, which the

    12          Prosecution has already seen, we would like to ask this

    13          court to consider rendering an order that all witnesses

    14          be provided with this ahead of time.

    15      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  This matter has been raised here

    16          before.  This is not the first time.

    17      MS. McMURREY:  Yes, your Honour, it has.

    18      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  When it was raised I made it very clear

    19          that when there is a decision of a court about matters

    20          coming before it, it is applicable in all cases.  If you

    21          start applying in a symptomatic way, that the Tadic

    22          Trial Chamber has decided and therefore it applies only

    23          to witnesses at the Tadic trial, then it means the same

    24          decision will be made.  No legal system operates that

    25          way.  If there is a ruling that applies to witnesses

Page 6175

     1          before the court, it applies to all witnesses.  It is

     2          unnecessary to tell us again to make such a ruling,

     3          because it is a ruling of the Tribunal.  That should

     4          follow for each case.

     5      MS. McMURREY:  Your Honour, the Victim and Witness Unit did

     6          not understand that to be so.  Just for clarification

     7          for the Victim and Witness Unit, they say they are not

     8          giving the witnesses that warning because they thought

     9          it had to be an order from this court.  So for

    10          clarification purposes, not for me, and we have

    11          addressed this before -- I am only doing this for the

    12          Victim and Witness Unit to make sure the witnesses are

    13          given this order.

    14      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  This Tribunal cannot be acting because

    15          of the ignorance of the Victims and Witnesses Unit.  It

    16          is a decision of the Tribunal.  When it is set aside, it

    17          follows wherever a witness is involved.

    18      MS. McMURREY:  So then the oral order of this court is that

    19          whatever the decisions --

    20      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  This court is not making any additional

    21          order to what is already there.

    22      MS. McMURREY:  Just for clarification, is it the

    23          presumption of this court --

    24      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Are you making the same mistakes too,

    25          that another order is required, whenever another case is

Page 6176

     1          before the Trial Chamber?  It means each time a case is

     2          before the Trial Chamber, the ICT ruling must remain,

     3          that is what you are assuming.

     4      MS. McMURREY:  I am just trying to see whether a 90(d)

     5          warning is given to all witnesses that come before this

     6          tribunal.  Is that what this court is saying they should

     7          be given?

     8      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Frankly, I think I need not say more.

     9          If the Victims and Witnesses Unit are in doubt, they

    10          should know where to go to for clarification.

    11      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, when we discussed this some time

    12          ago, it was on my motion.  As I understood the court --

    13          everybody agreed with what the court just said, that it

    14          applied and it should have been given, and that there

    15          was no reason for this Trial Chamber to do anything

    16          else.  The problem, I think, has arisen when it has not

    17          happened.

    18                I think the Trial Chamber and I and the

    19          Prosecution and everybody thought that the Victim and

    20          Witness Unit was sending this notice out along with the

    21          summons in this case, just like it had done in the

    22          earlier case, and that all the witnesses in this case

    23          would be treated exactly the way the witnesses were in

    24          the Tadic case.  That kind of thing has not occurred.

    25          It just did not happen.

Page 6177

     1      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I do not know, I think I have told you

     2          what the position is -- let me repeat it again.  Let us

     3          not the ignorance of a group make me follow their

     4          mistakes.  I do not think I should do that.  It is a

     5          decision of this court that all witnesses should be

     6          served with that notice, and I think it follows.

     7      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, I thought that was the ruling of the

     8          court also.  I have had no problem with that being the

     9          ruling of the court.  I think it is a proper ruling and

    10          should have been abided by.

    11      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I suppose we will ask the legal officer

    12          to know how to put it across to them.  He meets them

    13          quite often and should be able to tell them what they

    14          should do in subsequent cases.

    15                Mr. Niemann, I think we are expecting your next

    16          witness.

    17      MS. McHENRY:  Thank you, your Honours.  Your Honour, the

    18          Prosecution calls Mrs. Grubac.  Your Honour, while the

    19          usher is getting the witness, if I could just bring a

    20          small technical matter to the court's attention.  When

    21          the journalist testified earlier this week, some

    22          translations were submitted by the Prosecution office

    23          that had attached to it a separate page with some

    24          corrections to the translation that we had been given

    25          immediately before the witness testified by the

Page 6178

     1          translation section.  Those corrections have now been

     2          incorporated into a corrected translation which I have

     3          one copy for the Registrar and extra copies for the

     4          court.  The Defence have been given these and indicated

     5          that they have no objection.  It is just for the court's

     6          convenience.  It is 167A and 168A, just corrected

     7          translations.  Thank you, your Honour.

     8      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you very much.

     9      MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Your Honour, I wonder if this might be a

    10          convenient time to raise one other small matter with

    11          you?

    12      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  As long as we are not extending into

    13          the witness's time.

    14      MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Given that we have a break at 4.00, it will

    15          take two or three minutes at most.  It has to do with

    16          the transcript from Monday, August 11th, during the

    17          testimony of Branko Sudar.  I have discussed this with

    18          the Prosecution and the interpretation department, and

    19          on page 5913, there was a mistranslation -- some words

    20          were left out of what Mr. Sudar said in his language to

    21          the English language.  We are requesting that at line 6,

    22          the sentence ends "hit the man"; it should read "hit the

    23          man in the thigh", adding the words "in the thigh".

    24          I have discussed this Mr. Hocking as well and with the

    25          Prosecutor.

Page 6179

     1      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Ms. McHenry, do you mind if we rise

     2          now instead of kicking off now?

     3      MS. McHENRY:  No, your Honour, I think that makes sense.

     4          Thank you.

     5      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  The Trial Chamber will now rise and

     6          reassemble at 4.30.

     7      (4.00 pm)

     8                                (A short break)

     9      (4.30 pm)

    10      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

    11      MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honour, I need to ask the court for a

    12          clarification of what has apparently turned into

    13          something of a major concern.  I suggested to the court

    14          that I had spoken with Mr. Mucic for a few minutes about

    15          the health of Mr. Greaves.  The security people now need

    16          to know whether that is okay with the court if we talk

    17          with -- counsel for one defendant talks with counsel for

    18          another defendant, as long as we have permission of

    19          their counsel.  Where I am from, it is perfectly okay as

    20          long as you have that permission, otherwise it is

    21          unethical.  Apparently they want this court to pronounce

    22          on that so they will know what to do in the future.

    23      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I do not know, this is strange to me.

    24          It is hardly a contentious matter between parties that

    25          comes before a Trial Chamber of any court.  I do not see

Page 6180

     1          how we can pronounce on complaints by somebody outside

     2          the issue.  They are not parties to any of this, so how

     3          can they invoke the jurisdiction of the court for

     4          matters which strictly speaking do not concern them?  If

     5          both counsel have agreed as to how to conduct the

     6          affairs of their case, I do not see anybody coming into

     7          it.

     8      MR. ACKERMAN:  I think that clarifies it, your Honour.

     9          I might just add that in the situation we find ourselves

    10          in, our co-defendants in this case could very well be

    11          witnesses for our side, and I might very well want to

    12          talk with one of the other defendants about the

    13          possibility of him being a witness for my client.

    14          I should be permitted to do that, as long as I have the

    15          permission of their counsel, so I think it would be

    16          inappropriate to restrict that in any way, as long as we

    17          are doing it ethically and with permission from their

    18          counsel.

    19      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Ms. McHenry, what is the position?

    20      MS. McHENRY:  Your Honour, the Prosecution calls

    21          Mr.s Grubac.

    22      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Actually I thought you were starting

    23          with the application for protective measures.

    24      MR. NIEMANN:  We can do that.

    25      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  The witness is already here, we do not

Page 6181

     1          have to.  We can take that later.

     2      MS. McHENRY:  I am sorry, your Honour, if I misunderstood.

     3                             Mrs. Grubac (sworn)

     4                          Examined by MS. McHENRY

     5      Q.  May I proceed, your Honour?

     6      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Yes, you may.

     7      MS. McHENRY:  Thank you.  Ma'am, would you please state

     8          your full name?

     9      A.  My name is Gordana Grubac.

    10      Q.  How old are you at the present time?

    11      A.  I am 42 years old.

    12      Q.  Maybe just for the help of the interpreters, ma'am, if

    13          I could ask you to move your chair a little closer to

    14          the desk so you can be closer to the microphone.

    15      A.  Okay.

    16      Q.  Where were you living in the beginning of 1992,

    17          Mrs Grubac?

    18      A.  I lived in Konjic.

    19      Q.  Is that the town of Konjic?

    20      A.  Yes, the town of Konjic.

    21      Q.  How were you employed at that time?

    22      A.  I was employed with a bank.

    23      Q.  Are you married, ma'am?

    24      A.  Yes, I am.

    25      Q.  Is there a problem with the interpretation?

Page 6182

     1      A.  It is a bit too loud.

     2      Q.  What is the name of your husband, ma'am?

     3      A.  The name of my husband is Petko.

     4      Q.  What is your ethnic background, ma'am?

     5      A.  I am a Serb.

     6      Q.  Did there come a time in 1992 when you left Konjic town,

     7          Mrs. Grubac?

     8      A.  Yes, there did.

     9      Q.  When was this approximately that you left Konjic?

    10      A.  The last time I was in Konjic was on May 7th, 1992.

    11      Q.  Where did you go when you left Konjic?

    12      A.  I went to Bradina.

    13      Q.  Why did you leave Konjic?

    14      A.  I left Konjic because on 7th May I could no longer get

    15          into my flat, it was already occupied.  1st May is a

    16          holiday celebrated in Yugoslavia and we had not worked

    17          for a couple of days, three or four days, and we had

    18          left for Bradina where our children already were with my

    19          parents.  We went to visit them.  On 5th May I returned,

    20          I went to work and I came back again on 7th May.  When

    21          I came on 7th May, somebody had already moved into my

    22          flat so we could not get inside.

    23      Q.  Did there come a time when there was military action in

    24          Bradina?

    25      A.  Not then, not on 7th May in Bradina.

Page 6183

     1      Q.  Sorry, at any time in May, ma'am, was there military

     2          action in Bradina?

     3      A.  In the course of the month of May, yes, perhaps on the

     4          13th or 14th there was some firing, but after 25th May

     5          there was an attack on Bradina.

     6      Q.  At any time during the time that you were in Bradina,

     7          were either you or your husband involved in the defence

     8          of the village, including the time prior to the attack

     9          and during the attack?

    10      A.  No, we were not.

    11      Q.  Can you just very briefly describe what you and your

    12          husband did when the attack started?

    13      A.  We were with our children accomodated in the house of my

    14          parents, we were staying with my parents.  We actually

    15          waited to see what would happen, there was an attack,

    16          there was shooting.  At a certain point, we saw that the

    17          lower section of Bradina, which is called Lower Bradina,

    18          was on fire, and the outcome of this was our fleeing to

    19          the forest, and we stayed in the woods with our children

    20          for two or three days waiting to see what would happen

    21          next.  The night before we surrendered to the Muslim

    22          soldiers, the Muslim soldiers came to the house of my

    23          parents and they shot at those houses.  We could see

    24          that from the forest.  The next morning they went away

    25          and we had already surrendered by then.  Then they set

Page 6184

     1          that part of Bradina on fire as well.  Me and my

     2          husband, then another three men, surrendered, as well as

     3          some 30 women and children surrendered to the Muslim

     4          soldiers.

     5      Q.  Please just briefly describe what happened after you

     6          surrendered to the soldiers.

     7      A.  After we had surrendered to the soldiers the Muslim army

     8          came and took my husband and these three men away, put

     9          them in a car and drove them off towards Konjic.  They

    10          shut up the women and the children in Konjic in the

    11          school.

    12      Q.  How long did you stay in this school in Konjic?

    13      A.  In a school in Bradina, I stayed there for three days.

    14          In the meantime, the best man at my wedding came and

    15          took me and my children away and the other women and the

    16          other children remained in the school.

    17      Q.  After the three days when this person came, did you

    18          return to your apartment in Konjic, to the house in

    19          Bradina, or somewhere else?

    20      A.  I could not return to my flat in Konjic because as

    21          I have already said somebody else had already moved into

    22          it.  We could not go to Bradina either because all the

    23          houses had been burnt down, so I stayed with this

    24          person, the best man at my wedding, and we stayed there,

    25          me and my children, at his place for a month and then we

Page 6185

     1          moved to the flat of my parents, because my parents had

     2          a flat in Konjic and also had a house in Bradina.

     3      Q.  Did you learn where your husband had been taken?

     4      A.  Yes, I did.  Policemen, or rather soldiers told me that

     5          he had been taken to Konjic for some sort of a hearing,

     6          but I thought that my husband would be released on the

     7          same day.  However, I was wrong.  When I came they told

     8          me he had been taken to prison.

     9      Q.  Did you learn whether or not the prison he had been

    10          taken to was Celebici?

    11      A.  At first he was not in Celebici, he was locked up in the

    12          elementary school called 3rd March, I went to visit him

    13          once in that school.  I believe they spent seven days

    14          there.  I only saw him for a short while, and after that

    15          I did not see him again for almost two months -- a month

    16          and a half.

    17      Q.  Was there a time when you learned that your husband was

    18          being detained in Celebici?

    19      A.  Yes.

    20      Q.  Were any other of your immediate family members also

    21          detained in Celebici?

    22      A.  Yes, my father was detained who was 68 years old at the

    23          time, and my brother who is older than me, he was 40 at

    24          the time, and my younger brother who was 36 at the time.

    25      Q.  During the time your husband and other family members

Page 6186

     1          were in Celebici, did you ever have any communication

     2          from them?

     3      A.  Yes, on one occasion my husband sent me a note saying

     4          that I was not to come, I nor my sister-in-law were to

     5          come to the camp because some horrible things were

     6          happening to women there.  He did not say specifically

     7          what, but he said we were not to come.

     8      Q.  Nonetheless, did you at some point visit your husband in

     9          Celebici?

    10      A.  Yes, I did, on one occasion a friend of mine, who is a

    11          Croat, came and said that the prisoners had not been

    12          given food for three days and they were in terrible

    13          shape and they were fainting and that we should go and

    14          take some food to them and that if I did not want to do

    15          that, she would.  So I decided to go there with my

    16          sister-in-law and to take some food to them, and I did

    17          go on that same day.

    18      Q.  Would you please tell us exactly what happened when you

    19          went to Celebici?

    20      A.  I did not understand the question.  What do you mean,

    21          exactly, "when I went to Celebici".

    22      Q.  Sorry.  If I understood you correctly you indicated that

    23          you decided and did in fact go to Celebici to visit your

    24          husband.  I am just asking that you tell us exactly what

    25          happened when you got to the camp?

Page 6187

     1      A.  When I arrived at the camp, I see.  That day I came

     2          there and I saw at that moment a horrendous picture,

     3          women in a row standing in the sun who were not

     4          permitted to say a single word.  They were just standing

     5          in a row, one behind another, holding some bags in their

     6          hands in which they had brought some food for their

     7          people in the camp, and I also stood in that queue.  In

     8          the meantime, a guard saw me whom I had met a few days

     9          before the outbreak of the war in the bank and he

    10          recognised me.  He walked up to me and he said "it is

    11          good that you have come.  The doctor is fine, I have

    12          seen him".  However, he then left and after some five or

    13          ten minutes he returned.  He went into the camp and some

    14          five or ten minutes later he returned and he beckoned to

    15          me from the gate and told me --

    16      Q.  If I can just stop you and ask you to go a little

    17          slower.  Do you know the name of this guard?

    18      A.  I do not know his first name, but I do know that his

    19          surname is Hondo.

    20      Q.  After five or ten minutes -- please go on with what

    21          happened and please go slowly.

    22      A.  Okay.  So he called my and told me that the commander,

    23          Pavo, was calling me.  He said that I could go and see

    24          my husband and I went with him and entered a sort of

    25          shed.  He took me into an office which was to the

Page 6188

     1          right-hand side, and in that office there was a girl

     2          whom I only know by surname, it is Pozder, and Pavo was

     3          also there.  The two of them were there in the office

     4          when I got there.

     5      Q.  Can you describe approximately where this building was

     6          within the camp?

     7      A.  I really at that time did not dare look around, I was

     8          scared, I just went.  I know that I did not go very far

     9          from the gate.  We took the direction left from the

    10          gate.  We passed by a small house, a small shed, at

    11          least that is the way it seemed to me, and then we

    12          entered this shed and inside this other building.  The

    13          office to which I came was on the right-hand side.

    14      Q.  What happened after you and Mr. Hondo went into the room

    15          where the commander Pavo and the other woman were?  What

    16          happened next, please?

    17      A.  Pavo sent Hondo to get my husband, and in the meantime

    18          I asked him to let my sister-in-law also inside the prison

    19          to see my brother, which is to say her husband and he

    20          did.  Also he let my sister-in-law in and brought my

    21          brother.

    22      Q.  After Pavo sent the guard to go get your husband, could

    23          you please tell us exactly what happened next?

    24      A.  When my husband arrived, is that what you are asking?

    25      Q.  I am just asking you to please continue with what

Page 6189

     1          happened.

     2      A.  Yes.  Then Hondo brought my husband and in the

     3          meanwhile, my sister-in-law had also arrived and my

     4          brother.  These were really moving scenes.  My husband

     5          had visibly lost weight.  He was white as a sheet, he

     6          was deprived, tears streamed down his cheeks.  My

     7          brother had also lost quite a lot of weight.  Before

     8          that he used to have a bit more.  His nose was deformed,

     9          his teeth had been knocked out.  He asked Pavo to let

    10          him sit down because he could not stand on his two feet

    11          and Pavo let him sit.

    12                In the meantime, my husband asked me whether I had

    13          addressed Ahmed Jusufbegovic who was the best man at our

    14          wedding who we thought influential enough and could help

    15          us if he wanted to.  I said I had not contacted him.

    16          Pavo shouted at my husband and said that he really did

    17          not understand a thing, that he did not know on account

    18          of whom he was in prison and there was no point in his

    19          asking Ahmed to help him.  Then when my husband asked

    20          why he was locked up and Pavo answered because he was

    21          superior to them, he was above them.  Those were his

    22          words and then we sat there for some ten or fifteen

    23          minutes more and then we left, me and my sister-in-law

    24          and they returned to the prison.

    25      Q.  Did you have occasion to see any of your other family

Page 6190

     1          members besides your brother and your husband?

     2      A.  No, I had no occasion -- I could not see my father and

     3          my younger brother.

     4      Q.  Did you ask to see them or did you not ask?

     5      A.  I cannot recall exactly.  I believe I did ask to see at

     6          least one of them and he only allowed us to see my

     7          brother on account of my sister-in-law.

     8      Q.  What did you do after this visit -- approximately how

     9          long did your visit in the camp last?  How long did you

    10          see your husband for?

    11      A.  Ten to fifteen minutes, not more.  Pavo said that we

    12          were to leave -- he actually was joking, said "it is

    13          better that you leave on your own than me having to

    14          force you out", so we stayed there for ten or fifteen

    15          minutes and then left.

    16      Q.  What, if anything, did you do after your visit to see

    17          your husband, ma'am?

    18      A.  After our visit to the prison, in the meantime the train

    19          between Jablanica and Konjic had already gone, we had to

    20          go back on foot, so on our way back we passed by

    21          Zejnil's house and saw plenty of soldiers there,

    22          everybody was there, so I assumed that Zejnil was also

    23          there, and then I call him on the phone on that same

    24          day.

    25      Q.  Can you please tell the court exactly why it was that

Page 6191

     1          you decided to call Zejnil?

     2      A.  I had to find a way to at least try to save my husband

     3          and my father and my brothers, and I sought a way and

     4          I enquired around and quite by accident it was in fact

     5          that I found out -- in fact I often had occasion to be

     6          in the company of Zejnil's brother and it was he who

     7          told me to try and call Zejnil.  He practically

     8          insisted, he said "call Zejnil when he is here, call

     9          Zejnil", which I eventually did.

    10      Q.  What is the last name of Zejnil?

    11      A.  Delalic, Zejnil.

    12      Q.  What is the name of the brother who told you to call

    13          Zejnil?

    14      A.  Sefik Delalic.

    15      Q.  Did you have any other information that led you to

    16          contact Zejnil to try and get your husband out of the

    17          camp?

    18      A.  We were not very -- we were not able, we were in no

    19          position to establish much contact with people, to

    20          communicate with people much.  We could not go out, we

    21          could not move around, so there were very few people we

    22          could talk to.  These were more or less Sefik's friends

    23          who happened to be there when I was there and it was all

    24          of them who told me to try and ask Zejnil, or rather

    25          they insisted that I do that.

Page 6192

     1      Q.  Were any of these people, these friends of Sefik who

     2          also told you you should call Zejnil, do you know

     3          whether or not any of them had any connection to the

     4          Celebici camp?

     5      A.  One of them I think was a guard at the Celebici camp,

     6          but I do not know what his name is.  It was a young lad,

     7          but I did not know him before that.

     8      Q.  Besides what you were told or what was suggested to you

     9          by his brother and by this young guard, what did you

    10          know of Mr. Delalic's position at this time?

    11      A.  More from this story of Sefik's, people would say in his

    12          company, "Zejnil is at Igman", or he was having a

    13          meeting with some functionaries, or that he was

    14          attending a meeting or that someone had come to see him

    15          for a meeting.  So this was the kind of story I heard.

    16          On the basis of such accounts, I understood that Zejnil

    17          was holding some sort of a function, that he was able to

    18          help me.

    19      Q.  Did you know Mr. Zejnil Delalic from before the war?

    20      A.  Yes, I did.  I knew Zejnil.  We were friends.

    21      Q.  You indicate that after you then decided that you would

    22          call Mr. Delalic.  Could you tell us exactly what happened

    23          when you first tried to call Zejnil Delalic?

    24      A.  I called Zejnil on the phone at home.  His secretary

    25          answered, and when I introduced myself she said that

Page 6193

     1          Zejnil had a meeting and that I should call him again

     2          about 7.00 in the evening, which I did.  When I called

     3          him at 7.00 --

     4      Q.  Let me just interrupt.  Do you know the name of the

     5          secretary with whom you talked?

     6      A.  I do, Mirjana Buselic.

     7      Q.  Did you also know her from before the war?

     8      A.  Only by sight.  We did not say hello to one another, but

     9          I knew her name.

    10      Q.  Please continue with what happened when you called back

    11          at 7.00.

    12      A.  When I called back at 7.00 Zejnil answered, the

    13          secretary did not answer the phone, but it was Zejnil

    14          himself.  He was probably expecting my call.  At first

    15          Zejnil was cordial and he asked me how I was, how my

    16          children were, and then I started crying and asked him,

    17          "Zejnil, why is my Petko in prison for two months?"

    18          I told him I had been to the prison that day and that

    19          I had seen him and that he was in a very bad condition

    20          and that he would die there.  Then he said to me,

    21          "Gordana, I do not understand anything any more.  When

    22          Bradina fell, I called Dr. Ahmed Jusufbegovic and told

    23          him that (redacted) and Dr. Grubac should return to

    24          the health centre and work there, and Doctor

    25          Jusufbegovic said that colleagues would not accept

Page 6194

     1          (redacted) that Dr. Grubac had stated he wanted to

     2          treat the Chetniks in Celebici".

     3                Then I said, "how could anybody normal agree to be

     4          there to treat those people?  If he needs to treat them,

     5          he can do that going there from his own home".  Then he

     6          said he would talk to my husband and that he would call

     7          me up after he had spoken to him.

     8      Q.  Please continue with what happened next.

     9      A.  Yes.  That evening, Zejnil did not call.  I was

    10          disappointed.  I thought that he would not help me, and

    11          then I realised that I had to insist, and the next day

    12          I called him up again and his secretary told me that

    13          Zejnil had an important meeting that evening, that some

    14          people had come and that he was unable to go and visit

    15          my husband, but that he would do that in the course of

    16          the day, and that I should call up again somewhere

    17          towards evening, and that she would be able to tell me

    18          more.  So I waited.

    19      Q.  Did she tell you anything else about whether or not she

    20          had been given any instructions relating to your

    21          husband?

    22      A.  Afterwards when I called up again to see what was

    23          happening, she said, "Zejnil has just left to visit your

    24          husband in the camp", and that he had told her to

    25          prepare the release papers, and that he would be

Page 6195

     1          released, (redacted), perhaps in a

     2          day or two.

     3      Q.  Was your husband released?

     4      A.  He was released that same evening.

     5      Q.  After your husband's release, did you ever have occasion

     6          to see Mr. Zejnil Delalic again?

     7      A.  Yes.  We insisted, and then one evening Zejnil invited

     8          us to come and visit him.  It was upon our request, we

     9          had asked to be received.  The reason for the visit was

    10          to ask Zejnil to help my husband, my children and me to

    11          leave the town.

    12      Q.  Please continue, ma'am?

    13      A.  Then we were guests at Zejnil's.  There was no one else

    14          present except Zejnil, my husband and me.  We spent

    15          several hours there talking to him.  We told Zejnil the

    16          reason for our visit, and he said that he could not do

    17          us that service.  He could exchange my husband because

    18          he had been in the prison, but as I and the children had

    19          not been in prison he could not arrange for us to leave

    20          the town, but he offered my husband to work in the

    21          hospital in Igman and the hospital in Tarcin and my

    22          husband would not agree to that.

    23                Since we saw that we had little chance of getting

    24          out of the town, then Zejnil offered as a first step to

    25          have our apartment vacated.  When we left we were to see

Page 6196

     1          what would happen, whether he should go back to work or

     2          not, but he could not do us this service of arranging

     3          for us to leave the town; that is what he said.

     4      Q.  During your time at Mr. Delalic's house that evening, was

     5          there any discussion of Mr. Delalic's position at that

     6          time?

     7      A.  He spoke about some exchange of letters with Serbs from

     8          the Boracko Lake.  He was telling us about a fax.

     9          I think the essence of it was that they had threatened

    10          one another, the Serbs from Lake Borci had threatened

    11          them and they had threatened the Serbs and he showed us

    12          this piece of paper on the top of which it said "Zejnil

    13          Delalic, commander of the tactical group".  He also

    14          showed us newspapers where Croats, I think, had issued a

    15          warrant for Mr. Delalic, and there the big heading in

    16          capital letters said "Zejnil Delalic, commander of

    17          Tactical Group 1" and that is how we saw the post that

    18          Zejnil held.

    19      Q.  I am sorry, you may have said this before.  If you know,

    20          can you tell us approximately when this meeting with

    21          Mr. Delalic was?

    22      A.  I think it was at the end of September roughly.  I know

    23          it was maybe seven or ten days before they came and

    24          arrested my husband, and they arrested us on 4th October

    25          1992.

Page 6197

     1      MS. McHENRY:  Your Honour, I have no further questions for

     2          this witness.  Thank you.

     3      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Any cross-examination?

     4      MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Yes, your Honours.  We will proceed in this

     5          way.  First counsel for Mr. Delalic, second counsel for

     6          Mr. Mucic, third counsel for Mr. Delic and fourth counsel

     7          for Mr. Landzo.

     8                      Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC

     9      Q.  Good afternoon, Mr.s Grubac.  I am Edina Residovic,

    10          Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic.

    11                In answer to a question from the Prosecution, you

    12          said that before the war you had worked as a bank

    13          employee in Konjic; is that right?

    14      A.  Yes.

    15      Q.  So by occupation you are an economics technician.  Your

    16          family name is Djordjic, is it not, your maiden name?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  Djordjic is a family that is quite widespread in

    19          Bradina?

    20      A.  Yes.

    21      Q.  But all the Djordjics are not closely related to you?

    22      A.  No.

    23      Q.  As a member of a prestigious family in Konjic, you

    24          probably knew many people in Konjic?

    25      A.  Yes.

Page 6198

     1      Q.  You certainly knew, just before the war, the acting

     2          director of the health centre, Mr. Ahmed Jusufbegovic?

     3      A.  Yes.

     4      Q.  Mr. Jusufbegovic was your best man, was he not?

     5      A.  He was.

     6      Q.  You have just told us that your children and your

     7          parents, who also had an apartment in Konjic, were taken

     8          to the family home of your parents in Bradina?

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  At the time, Mr.s Grubac, some HOS units appeared who

    11          were accomodated at the motel in Konjic; is that not

    12          correct?

    13      A.  Yes.

    14      Q.  That was one of the reasons that you felt that it would

    15          be better to find shelter for your children, because you

    16          were expecting some adverse developments.

    17      A.  Yes, one of the reasons.

    18      Q.  However, you were aware that because of these and other

    19          reasons, many Serbs from Konjic were retreating towards

    20          Borci and Bradina.

    21      A.  Yes.

    22      Q.  Actually, one might say that at that time there was a

    23          massive exodus of the Serb population from the town of

    24          Konjic.

    25      A.  Not only of the Serb population but also the Muslim and

Page 6199

     1          Croatian population who went in the direction of

     2          Croatia; in other words everybody was fleeing from

     3          Konjic.

     4      Q.  Actually, after the events in Sarajevo people felt the

     5          imminent danger of war and people were looking for safer

     6          places to stay?

     7      A.  Probably.

     8      Q.  I do not know whether you as a woman know that in mid

     9          April a general mobilisation was proclaimed in Konjic,

    10          but you probably know that the authorities would not

    11          allow able bodied men to leave Konjic.

    12      A.  No, I do not know anything about that.

    13      Q.  But you probably do know that MUP controlled exits from

    14          the town?

    15      A.  I do not know that.  I know that already in March or the

    16          end of March on the way out of the town in the direction

    17          of Mostar, there was a roadblock but it was not manned

    18          by MUP.  That roadblock was controlled by Miralem

    19          Duracic, who was not employed in the MUP.

    20      Q.  However, you know that at the time, a reserve police

    21          force was being formed, so perhaps some of those people

    22          belonged to the reserve force?

    23      A.  I do not know whether a man such a Miralem Duracic could

    24          have been a member of the reserve police force.

    25      Q.  Very well, Mrs. Grubac.  Let me not ask you questions you

Page 6200

     1          do not know the answers to.  We will leave them out.

     2      A.  Very well.

     3      Q.  Since in April 1992 you were still in Konjic and you

     4          were able to listen to the news and as far as I know you

     5          are a family that was interested in developments around

     6          you, you must have heard that in April 1992, at Lake

     7          Borci, Serb groups or forces had arrested the President

     8          of the municipality, Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic, and the

     9          President of the SDA, Mr. Drago Peric?

    10      A.  I had heard that, but I heard that the reason for the

    11          arrest was that the Muslims and Croats had already put

    12          up roadblocks in the direction of Lake Borci and they

    13          would not allow Serbs to exit the town in that

    14          direction.  I heard that as soon as they removed the

    15          roadblocks they released Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic.

    16          That was the story I heard.

    17      Q.  Since you answered my question at greater length, you

    18          have also answered the next question I was going to put

    19          to you, that is the reason of the arrest.  The Serb

    20          authorities gave as the reason the formation of

    21          roadblocks and checkpoints preventing able bodied men

    22          from leaving the town in the direction of Lake Borci?

    23      A.  Not just able bodied men but all Serbs were not allowed

    24          to leave Konjic.  They would not let women or children

    25          go out either.

Page 6201

     1      Q.  After this, the Serbs could go where they wanted.

     2      A.  In the direction of Lake Borci and Bradina, yes.

     3      Q.  But I am going back to my previous question.  Does this

     4          remind you now, Mrs. Grubac, of the fact that there was a

     5          decision in view of the immediate threat of war and the

     6          proclamation of a general mobilisation, to prohibit

     7          anybody leaving the town?

     8      A.  No, I cannot recall that.

     9      Q.  You only remember this.

    10      MS. McHENRY:  Your Honour, I am sorry for interrupting, but

    11          if I could just respectfully request you ask the witness

    12          to pause before answering my learned colleague, because

    13          I am having a hard time following between the questions

    14          and answers.

    15      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Will you tell the witness to wait until

    16          her answer has been interpreted before she speaks

    17          again.

    18      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Mrs. Grubac, I have to warn you, I usually

    19          do that before I start my cross-examination, so

    20          I apologise for not doing that this time; namely we

    21          understand one another very well, so it seems normal to

    22          you to answer my question immediately and vice versa.

    23          However, both my question and your answer have to be

    24          interpreted for everybody in the courtroom to be able to

    25          follow what is happening, so I ask you, you have

Page 6202

     1          earphones on which you can hear the English

     2          interpretation so that when I finish my question, will

     3          you wait to hear the end of the interpretation before

     4          answering it and this will facilitate our work in the

     5          courtroom.

     6                Let me continue.  So after that time, many Serbs

     7          from the town of Konjic went to Borci and Bradina, and

     8          they stayed there on their own, only Serbs were there.

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  The inhabitants of other ethnic groups from the broader

    11          area of Borci, you may not know this, but from the area

    12          of Bradina also retreated either to Konjic or somewhere

    13          else.

    14      A.  In Bradina, there may have been only one family that was

    15          Muslim, I think that was it.  There were only two or

    16          three Croatian households and they stayed on in Bradina

    17          throughout.  They did not retreat, they were there.  As

    18          for Lake Borci, I do not know.

    19      Q.  In your statement given to the investigator of the

    20          office of the Prosecution -- let me check the date -- on

    21          21st February 1996, you stated that at the beginning of

    22          May Konjic had been shelled from the direction of

    23          Borci.

    24      A.  I said that I went to work on that day and that my

    25          colleagues at work told me that three shells had fallen

Page 6203

     1          from Borci, one fell into Neretva and two into the hill

     2          above the catholic church.  That is what I was told by

     3          my colleagues.

     4      Q.  If I have understood you well, Mrs. Grubac.  You said

     5          that after the May day holidays you went to work for the

     6          first time on May 5th?

     7      A.  And the last time I went to work was May 7th and that is

     8          when they told me that these shells had fallen, the day

     9          before, I think.

    10      Q.  Very well.  In connection with your acquaintance with

    11          Mr. Zejnil Delalic, allow me to ask a few questions now,

    12          because we will probably have to continue the

    13          cross-examination tomorrow.  Actually, you testified

    14          before this Trial Chamber that you knew his brother

    15          Sefik.

    16      A.  Yes.

    17      Q.  Can you confirm that his brother was a patient of your

    18          husband's?

    19      A.  I do not think that this brother was.  I knew of the

    20          younger brother, Sefik.

    21      Q.  Yes, but you can confirm that you knew Mr. Delalic also

    22          because your husband as a doctor had treated members of

    23          his family, his employer and his brother.

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  You can also confirm that Zejnil Delalic was a great

Page 6204

     1          friend of your best man, Dr. Ahmed Jusufbegovic?

     2      A.  I cannot say that he was a very close friend, but I know

     3          that they knew each other.

     4      Q.  You can also confirm that you too and your husband and

     5          Dr. Jusufbegovic and Mr. Delalic would meet when

     6          Mr. Delalic came to Konjic from abroad.

     7      A.  We were never together with our best man in the company

     8          of Mr. Zejnil Delalic.  We would visit Zejnil with some

     9          common friends, Sejo Hajduk, but not with Ahmed

    10          Jusufbegovic.

    11      Q.  Very well, but in any event you know that

    12          Dr. Jusufbegovic was a friend of your husband's and also

    13          a friend of Mr. Zejnil Delalic's?

    14      A.  Yes.

    15      Q.  You said that on May you were unable to enter your

    16          apartment because another family had moved in.  If

    17          I tell you that a family from the village of Gakici had

    18          moved into your apartment; is that correct?

    19      A.  I do not know which village that family came from.

    20          I just know their name, because when I went there for

    21          the last time I saw written on the door of my apartment

    22          in ink "army of BH Bajro Dzajic".

    23      Q.  Dzajic Bajro was not somebody you had known from before

    24          from Konjic?

    25      A.  No.

Page 6205

     1      Q.  If I were to tell you that it was a family that was a

     2          refugee and who came to Konjic as a refugee, would that

     3          mean anything to you; is that correct?

     4      A.  I do not know.

     5      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Your Honour, as I have a large group of

     6          questions to address to the witness, perhaps it would be

     7          best, if that is convenient for you, that we break now

     8          and I resume the questions tomorrow morning.

     9      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Yes, I think it is almost 5.30 pm.  It

    10          is convenient to stop at this stage.  We will continue

    11          tomorrow morning.  Thank you.

    12      (5.30 pm)

    13             (Court adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)