Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6206

     1                                     Thursday, 14th August 1997

     2      (10.00 am)

     3      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

     4          Can we have the witness now?  We will have the

     5          appearances first.

     6      MR.. NIEMANN:  If your Honours please, my name is Niemann and

     7          I appear with my colleagues, Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone and

     8          Ms. Van Dusschoten for the Prosecution.

     9      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  May we have the appearances for the

    10          Defence?

    11      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Good morning, your Honours, I am Edina

    12          Residovic and I am appearing on behalf of Mr. Zejnil

    13          Delalic.  My co-counsel is my colleague Eugene

    14          O'Sullivan, professor from Canada.  Thank you.

    15      MR. OLUJIC:  Good morning, your Honours, I am Zejnil Olujic,

    16          counsel for Mr. Zdravko Mucic.  Appearing on behalf of

    17          Mr. Mucic with me is my colleague Mr. Michael Greaves.

    18      MR. KARABDIC:  Good morning, your Honours, I am Salih

    19          Karabdic from Sarajevo, appearing on behalf of Hazim

    20          Delic.  My co-counsel is Mr. Thomas Moran from Houston

    21          Texas.

    22      MR. ACKERMAN:  Good morning, your honours, my name is John

    23          Ackerman and I appear for Esad Landzo along with my

    24          co-counsel Cynthia McMurray.  I would like to make a

    25          note at this point that today, Pakistan is celebrating

Page 6207

     1          its 50th anniversary of independence and I wanted to

     2          congratulate Judge Jan, and I know my other colleagues

     3          will join me in my congratulation.

     4      JUDGE JAN:  Thank you very much.

     5      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Kindly tell the witness she is still

     6          under oath.

     7      THE REGISTRAR:  Mrs. Grubac, may I remind you you are still

     8          under oath.

     9      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Ms. Residovic, continue with your

    10          cross-examination.

    11                         Gordana Grubac (continued)

    12                Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC (continued)

    13      Q.  Thank you, your Honours.  Good morning, Mrs. Grubac.

    14          I hope that you have managed to rest a bit better since

    15          we are having a cooler spell, and the warnings that we

    16          mutually exchanged yesterday still apply today, so

    17          please be so kind to listen to the translation of our

    18          words.

    19                Mrs. Grubac, as your parents had a family house in

    20          Bradina, you probably know well the area of Bradina, is

    21          that not a fact?

    22      A.  Yes, I do.

    23      Q.  And you know that the hamlets in Bradina are on the

    24          slopes of a mountain, is that not so?

    25      A.  Yes, it is.

Page 6208

     1      Q.  And that in the area there are very many isolated

     2          houses, family homes, which are isolated on the various

     3          hillocks?

     4      A.  Yes.

     5      Q.  And you can agree with me that after the fighting in

     6          Bradina when the men had mostly been taken away, that it

     7          was quite risky under such circumstances for families,

     8          especially women and children, to remain in such houses,

     9          can you not?

    10      A.  In the houses in Bradina women could not remain because

    11          the houses had been burnt down, most of the houses had

    12          been burnt down.

    13      Q.  Thank you.  Probably one of the reasons why -- that is

    14          probably one of the reasons why you as well as many

    15          other peoples tried to go down to Bradina to stay with

    16          relatives?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  It is in that sense that I understood that you, together

    19          with the bestman at your wedding, Drago Pavlovic, went

    20          down to the city of Konjic three days later, and since

    21          you were unable to enter your flat you stayed for a

    22          month as a house guest, you and your children at the

    23          apartment of Mr. Drago Pavlovic, is that so?

    24      A.  Yes, I was there but other women were unable to leave

    25          the school in which they had been locked up.

Page 6209

     1      Q.  Please, Mrs. Grubac, is it correct that the reason for

     2          your staying in the apartment of Drago Pavlovic in

     3          addition to the reasons which you have already adduced,

     4          was also the fact that he was living in the neighbour

     5          hood of Bozo Lokas, who was the uncle of Mr. Goran Lokas?

     6      A.  That was one of the reasons, one of them.

     7      Q.  You knew Goran Lokas who, before the war, was the

     8          presiding judge of the court and you heard at the time

     9          that he was also the chairman of the commission for the

    10          interrogation of detainees in Celebici; is that not so?

    11      A.  I did not know that he was the chairman of that

    12          commission.  I did know, however, that he had some role

    13          in the commission.  I was not aware of exactly what role

    14          he had.  I did not know.

    15      Q.  Mrs. Grubac, you wanted to establish contact with him as

    16          a friend, as well as a man who was influential, had some

    17          influence, because it was common knowledge probably at

    18          the time that Goran Lokas had helped release a number of

    19          prisoners from Celebici; is that correct?

    20      A.  I knew that Goran was in this commission and that he

    21          wanted to help Serbs in Konjic.

    22      Q.  However, regrettably at that time you were unable to do

    23          that because Goran Lokas had been in a traffic accident

    24          and was no longer in Konjic; is that correct?

    25      A.  Yes, it is.

Page 6210

     1      Q.  I shall now ask you about some other things to which you

     2          have testified in court, namely you have said that you

     3          went to visit your husband a day prior to his release

     4          and that on your way back from Celebici, you and your

     5          sister-in-law missed the train which went between

     6          Jablanica and Konjic?

     7      A.  Yes.

     8      Q.  I want to ask you, you know that when you got to Konjic

     9          a certain time after your arrival somewhere in the

    10          beginning of June, this train started -- the traffic of

    11          this train between Jablanica and Tarcin was resumed?

    12      A.  It did run.  I do not know when it started running.

    13          I know that it ran from Jablanica to Konjic.

    14      Q.  You went to Celebici aboard that train?

    15      A.  Yes.

    16      Q.  And that train was free of charge for all the passengers

    17          at the time, was it not?

    18      A.  Yes, it was.

    19      Q.  And everyone who so wished, irrespective of ethnic

    20          background or any other affiliation, could ride on that

    21          train, could they not?

    22      A.  Yes, they could.

    23      Q.  And you also know that for the establishment of the

    24          operation of that train, Mr. Delalic had a prominent role

    25          to play in the reestablishment of the operation of that

Page 6211

     1          train and so that train was also dubbed a certain name,

     2          was it not?

     3      A.  I am not aware of any such thing.

     4      Q.  Yes, thank you.  As you missed that train and there was

     5          no regular traffic you set out on foot, and as you have

     6          testified before this Tribunal, when you were passing by

     7          the house of Zejnil Delalic you saw a lot of soldiers

     8          there and dogs, and that reminded you that perhaps

     9          Zejnil Delalic could be at home.  This is what you

    10          testified to, is it not?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      Q.  You also said that as you were friends in a certain way

    13          and also associated with his brother Sefik, you actually

    14          knew that at that time Zejnil Delalic was in Konjic only

    15          very seldom.

    16      A.  Yes, that is so.

    17      Q.  That is why you opted -- rather it occurred to you to

    18          make use of the fact that you knew that he was in Konjic

    19          at that time to give him a call?

    20      A.  I waited for Zejnil to come to Konjic because his

    21          brother talked me into it, into calling Zejnil once he

    22          came to Konjic and then I made use of that opportunity

    23          to do that.

    24      Q.  Yes, thank you.  You have described in detail before

    25          this court the telephone conversation which you had

Page 6212

     1          conducted with Mr. Delalic and I have no further

     2          questions on that score, but I should like to ask you,

     3          on the basis of that conversation, did you gather that

     4          Zejnil wanted to help you, that he would help you if he

     5          could?

     6      A.  Yes, on the basis of the conversation, I thought that he

     7          would help me to the effect that he would be released

     8          from prison.

     9      Q.  Very well, thank you.  Mrs. Grubac, so it was somewhere

    10          in the beginning of June that you came to Konjic again,

    11          and probably it was then when you came that you saw that

    12          Konjic, in the period in which you had been absent,

    13          which is to say from 7th May to the date of your

    14          arrival, had already been damaged from the shelling very

    15          much.

    16      A.  After my arrival from Bradina I could not see that in

    17          the part of town in which I was there, there were no

    18          visible consequences of shelling and that was the

    19          beginning of June, and the section in which I was is the

    20          railway station area, and that part of the city is

    21          called Trsanica.  That part of the city was damaged only

    22          very slightly at the time as far as I could see after

    23          coming from Bradina.  This is at the very entrance to

    24          the town from the direction of Bradina, this Trsanica

    25          section of the city.

Page 6213

     1      Q.  Can I ask you what day it was you came?

     2      A.  It was 28th, I think, of May, three days after visiting

     3          Bradina, or perhaps in the beginning of June.  In

     4          between that period, perhaps, from 28th May to beginning

     5          of June, I cannot be sure.

     6      Q.  However, later while you stayed in Konjic you were also

     7          a witness of severe shelling of the city?

     8      A.  Yes.

     9      Q.  And on 4th June, it was precisely that quarter, that

    10          section, the department store and the area around there

    11          which was subjected to heavy shelling, if you can

    12          remember.

    13      A.  Yes, there were shells landing.

    14      Q.  In view of that fact and everything which transpired,

    15          you could feel an anti-Serb mood gaining foothold in the

    16          city among the ordinary people?

    17      A.  I could feel that before that shelling also, even during

    18          the time when I was still working and towards the end of

    19          April when I went to work.

    20      Q.  You could also see for yourself that very many refugees

    21          from various parts of eastern Hercegovina, eastern

    22          Bosnia, had come to the city and the mix of the

    23          population had changed quite a lot?

    24      A.  Yes, I could see refugees.

    25      Q.  And you noticed that even some friends of yours were

Page 6214

     1          averse to communicating with you?

     2      A.  Not averse, they did not communicate with me at all.

     3          They just would not communicate with me at all.

     4      Q.  But as you testified yesterday, there were people

     5          anyway, there were some individuals who had not changed

     6          their attitude towards you as acquaintances or friends.

     7      A.  Two or three individuals, very few.

     8      Q.  And you knew that these people, because of that, were

     9          subjected to various harassment, to various gossip, even

    10          on the part of their own fellow citizens?

    11      A.  They were with me only very infrequently, and in a very

    12          discreet fashion, shall I say.  They were not all that

    13          conspicuous, you know.

    14      Q.  But precisely on account of that risk, of the danger

    15          because the milieu would then proclaim them to be fifth

    16          columnists, that is why?

    17      A.  Yes, that is the way I perceive it in respect of these

    18          particular people and I had no explanation as regards

    19          the others and their behaviour.

    20      Q.  Mrs. Grubac, you have said that after a number of

    21          attempts, somewhere around the second half of September,

    22          or perhaps if I calculate the days according to what you

    23          have said, perhaps after 20th September, you and your

    24          husband went to Mr. Delalic for a sitting, as we would

    25          put it.

Page 6215

     1      A.  Yes, that is so.

     2      Q.  However, it is also true that prior to that date you had

     3          also endeavoured to establish this second contact with

     4          Mr. Delalic, but at the time he was always somewhere in

     5          the war theatre, was he not?

     6      A.  That is not so.  When we decided to pay a visit to

     7          Zejnil, that was only a day before that date, not

     8          earlier.

     9      Q.  That evening when you came to Mr. Zejnil Delalic's house,

    10          you were received as acquaintances and as friends, is

    11          that not so?  His attitude towards you was the kind of

    12          attitude one has towards acquaintances and friends?

    13      A.  Yes, it was.

    14      Q.  Did you stay there and engage in a normal conversation,

    15          friendly conversation, which lasted for almost four

    16          hours?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  You have said before this Tribunal what the topics of

    19          your conversation were and what the actual cause for

    20          your visit was, so I shall not enquire about that.  That

    21          is definitely in the transcript.  You have also

    22          testified that Mr. Delalic immediately told you that it

    23          was very difficult, was very unlikely that he would be

    24          in a position to help you precisely in terms of what you

    25          were asking for, but he did propose first of all to your

Page 6216

     1          husband to come with me to Igman or to Tarcin if he was

     2          not feeling safe enough where he was; is that a fact?

     3      A.  He said so, but we did not believe that he was unable to

     4          help us.  We did not believe him.

     5      Q.  Very well.  You also said that he told you that he could

     6          possibly help you in regard to the return of your flat.

     7      A.  Yes, he did say that, but he did not help us.  If I can

     8          explain a bit --

     9      Q.  You have explained to the court several days after that

    10          you were arrested and probably you never encountered

    11          Mr. Delalic any more after that?

    12      A.  Yes.

    13      Q.  Connected to that particular conversation, I still have

    14          one question.  In the course of that talk, you found out

    15          that he had departed from view, to quite an extent, from

    16          many people, and you also saw the wanted warrant which

    17          he showed you in a newspaper.  However, what I would

    18          like to know is: at a certain point when you were

    19          talking about how he could help you, he also offered you

    20          some funds and you said that you did not need it and you

    21          thanked him, declining the offer; is that true?

    22      A.  Yes, it is.

    23      Q.  You have clarified that your husband was again arrested

    24          in the beginning of October by the MUP and it is true

    25          that in the end of December Goran Blazovic, an officer

Page 6217

     1          of the HVO, released you this time from prison?

     2      A.  He took us out of prison and ipso facto, I believe that

     3          he released us.

     4      Q.  When you left the prison, you probably heard that Zejnil

     5          Delalic had left Konjic and then you certainly also

     6          heard, and perhaps also watched on television, a

     7          programme which was made by Sagolj with Jasmin Guska in

     8          which Zejnil was accused of collaborating with the KOS

     9          and escaping on a Chetnik helicopter?

    10      A.  I only know Zejnil left Konjic and he left it while we

    11          were still in prison.  I heard this from the guards that

    12          were watching us.  As far as this programme is

    13          concerned, I really do not know anything about it.

    14      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Mrs. Grubac, thank you very much.  I believe

    15          that you have said in the sincerest of fashions what you

    16          knew about -- what you know about the events which are

    17          the subject of this hearing.

    18      A.  Thank you, ma'am.

    19      MR. OLUJIC:  With your permission, your Honours?

    20      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  You may proceed, please.

    21                        Cross-examined by MR. OLUJIC

    22      Q.  Thank you, your Honours.  Good morning, Mrs. Grubac.

    23      A.  Good morning.

    24      Q.  For several days you have been in The Hague together

    25          with your husband, but I hope we will finish this by the

Page 6218

     1          end of the day.  I am Defence counsel for Mr. Zdravko

     2          Mucic, I have several questions to put to you and

     3          I would like to ask you to bear in mind the previous

     4          remarks made regarding the technical matters, that you

     5          also wait for my questions to be interpreted before

     6          giving your answers so that everyone in the courtroom

     7          can follow the proceedings.  I hope we understand one

     8          another.

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  Thank you.  Mrs. Grubac, tell me please, in the course of

    11          your direct examination you said that before the attacks

    12          started and before the unfortunate war occurred in the

    13          territory of the former state, that you were working in

    14          a bank; is that correct?

    15      A.  It is.

    16      Q.  Did you work anywhere else in the course of your career

    17          except the bank?

    18      A.  Yes, in the social accounting service of Konjic.

    19      Q.  So your career was always linked to banks, social

    20          accounting, banks and so on?

    21      A.  Yes.

    22      Q.  When you left Konjic and Bradina, now that you have left

    23          that area, do you come across people from Bradina

    24          nowadays, people who were forced to leave?

    25      A.  Yes, I do.

Page 6219

     1      Q.  Do you meet people from Celebici camp, former detainees?

     2      A.  Yes, I do.

     3      Q.  Do you talk to them about your native area?

     4      A.  Of course we do.  That is what hurts us most.

     5      Q.  Do you talk to them about the events from the past war?

     6      A.  Certainly, that is the main topic of our conversations.

     7      Q.  Is anyone taking care of those people?  Is there some

     8          kind of an Association of Detainees which concerns

     9          itself with the fate of the former detainees?

    10      A.  There is an association, but I do not know what you mean

    11          by caring for them.  It does not give them financial

    12          aid, it has not found accommodation for them.  It is

    13          just an association that the detainees collaborate with

    14          because of The Hague Tribunal, nothing more.

    15      Q.  What about the authorities?  Do they care for them?

    16      A.  No one cares for them any more.

    17      Q.  Can it be said that these people have been betrayed, in

    18          a sense?

    19      A.  I do not know what the word betrayal implies in this

    20          case.

    21      Q.  When no one takes care of them.

    22      A.  They take care of themselves.

    23      Q.  Mrs. Grubac, were you a member of the communist party or

    24          the League of Communists of Yugoslavia?

    25      A.  Yes, I was, since the age of 18.

Page 6220

     1      Q.  In the course of your testimony, you said with reference

     2          to Dr Hadzihuseinovic that he benefitted from his

     3          manifestation of extremist tendencies.

     4      A.  I do not know that I said that.  I do not know what you

     5          mean by "benefit".

     6      Q.  Did you ever think that he might gain from demonstrating

     7          extremist tendencies?

     8      A.  No, I was surprised why he agreed to lead a nationalist

     9          party.

    10      Q.  He was the mayor, was he not?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      Q.  And who was the mayor before him?

    13      A.  I cannot recall exactly.  I do not know.  I know that

    14          Tomo Kures played an active role in politics and some

    15          other people, but to be frank, I really cannot tell you,

    16          I cannot remember that.

    17      Q.  Mrs. Grubac, could it be said that due to everything that

    18          happened quite a number of Serbs lost their posts and

    19          property due to the war and the atrocities that occurred

    20          there; can that be said?

    21      A.  The Serbs lost everything with this war, their land ...

    22      Q.  Could you list a few of the most important people who

    23          lost their positions?

    24      A.  It is not the positions that count, it is human lives.

    25          They have lost their dearest ones, which is most

Page 6221

     1          important of all, and then after that they have lost

     2          everything, their identity -- I am sorry, I am a bit

     3          upset.  They have lost everything, everything.  We are

     4          people without a past.

     5      Q.  You worked in a bank, in the social accounting service,

     6          this was a very significant position.  You were a member

     7          of the communist party.  Were you active in society, in

     8          politics before the war?

     9      A.  No, except for being a member of the party, I was not

    10          acting in politics at all.

    11      Q.  You are familiar with Mr. Drago Peric?

    12      A.  I just knew him because his wife was my teacher.

    13      Q.  Mrs. Grubac, who had the majority as an ethnic group in

    14          Konjic at the time in 1992?

    15      A.  The Muslims were in the majority.  There were more than

    16          50 per cent of them.  I do not know the exact personal

    17          share, but I know they had more than 50 per cent of the

    18          population.

    19      Q.  In your examination-in-chief you said that you were from

    20          Bradina, that that is where your parents' house was; is

    21          that correct?

    22      A.  Yes.

    23      Q.  So you know Bradina well?

    24      A.  I could say that I do know it.

    25      Q.  You said that all the houses in Bradina were burnt, is

Page 6222

     1          that true?

     2      A.  During the first attack, they were not all burnt down.

     3          Very few houses remained.

     4      Q.  Could you list us the owners of the houses that were

     5          burnt down, if you can?

     6      A.  Bradina is a large village and it is difficult to give

     7          you the names of all the owners of the houses.  It is

     8          impossible.  I can manage some names, but Djordjics, the

     9          Gligorevics, the Kuljanins.

    10      Q.  When Bradina was attacked, is it true that there were

    11          about 3,000 attackers?

    12      A.  I heard that later, I do not know the exact number, but

    13          they said there were about 3,000 of them.  This was the

    14          story going round Konjic afterwards.

    15      Q.  So you do not have direct knowledge, it is only what you

    16          heard?

    17      A.  Yes, it is only what I heard.

    18      Q.  How many people were defending Bradina?

    19      A.  There may have been between 200 and 300 people, because

    20          there were no more men than that in all.

    21      Q.  Did the defendants have military equipment?

    22      A.  No uniforms, but they had some weapons, some rifles and

    23          things.

    24      Q.  In addition to rifles?

    25      A.  I could not tell you, I know of what I saw in my part of

Page 6223

     1          the village.

     2      Q.  You lived in Konjic before the war; your husband is a

     3          psychiatrist, so you were a person moving around in the

     4          Konjic society.  You are a family that enjoys respect.

     5          Can you tell us the name of the JNA commander in Konjic

     6          until the JNA left?

     7      A.  No, I really do not know.  I was not active in politics

     8          and therefore did not consider it important to know who

     9          was the commander, so I really could not tell you.

    10      Q.  So you do not know who was the commander nor what ethnic

    11          group he belonged to?

    12      A.  No, I do not know at all who was the commander of the

    13          JNA.

    14      Q.  Did you know any officers in the Konjic garrison?

    15      A.  No, I do not think so.

    16      Q.  Mrs. Grubac, could you please tell me, you know

    17          Mr. Zdravko Mucic, do you not?

    18      A.  I knew Zdravko Mucic only by sight.  We did not even

    19          greet each other when we saw each other in the street.

    20          That is how much we knew each other.

    21      Q.  When did you have your first contact with him?

    22      A.  I contacted him for the first time in the camp.

    23      Q.  How did he receive you, Mr. Mucic?  Was he courteous, was

    24          he arrogant, was he ready to help you?

    25      A.  I can say that he was cordial.

Page 6224

     1      Q.  In the course of your direct examination, you said that

     2          Mr. Mucic said that Jusufbegovic was the one who had sent

     3          your husband to the camp; is that so?

     4      A.  In answer to my husband's question, "have you contacted

     5          Mr. Jusufbegovic" and Pavo intervened and said, "do you

     6          not know who it was who sent you to prison?" I think he

     7          implied Jusufbegovic and Rusmir.

     8      Q.  From this contact you had with Mr. Mucic in the camp, do

     9          you believe that he had the power to release your

    10          husband himself, or did that depend on other people?

    11      A.  I did not think about that at the time, because I knew

    12          Pavo too superficially to be able to ask him to do

    13          something like that for me.

    14      Q.  Mrs. Grubac, can it be said that you have nothing bad to

    15          say about Mr. Mucic?

    16      A.  He was in the camp and he should have known that people

    17          were killed in the camp and he should have done

    18          something to help those people to prevent them being

    19          beaten up.

    20      Q.  But judging from your own contact?

    21      A.  No, there is nothing bad I can say about those contacts.

    22      Q.  Thank you.  Can it be said, Mrs. Grubac, that Mr. Delalic

    23          and Mr. Mucic and later other people who helped you,

    24          were, in a sense, ostracised because of this in their

    25          own environment?

Page 6225

     1      A.  Mr. Pavo and Mr. Delalic did not do anything to help us,

     2          because Konjic as a whole was a camp for the Serbs.  So

     3          the only assistance that anyone could give us was to

     4          help us get out of the town, and nobody did that.

     5      Q.  What do you want to say when you say "Konjic was a

     6          camp"?

     7      A.  Let me explain.  My husband was under house arrest, even

     8          after his release from the camp.  He could not move

     9          around anywhere.  Secondly, whoever wanted to could

    10          arrest us, imprison us, give us nothing to eat.  Nobody

    11          gave anything to the Serbs, and this is obvious from the

    12          fact that two days (sic) after my husband was released,

    13          we were captured again and held in prison for two months

    14          and my children were alone.  My son who is 18, his hair

    15          is half grey, so I think that the only assistance that

    16          we would have wanted was to get out of that town.

    17      Q.  So there was no great difference between Konjic and the

    18          camp at Celebici?

    19      A.  Nobody beat them, but they were under house arrest.

    20      Q.  So you feel that Konjic, too, was a camp because of

    21          restricted freedom of movement?

    22      A.  We could not even leave our houses -- not leave town,

    23          but we could not get out, could not go out.  We were

    24          given I think to eat -- there was no institution to give

    25          the Serbs flour or food.  If we did not have some money,

Page 6226

     1          we would have starved to death.

     2      Q.  Mrs. Grubac, do you know that Mr. Mucic advised your

     3          husband to leave Konjic and your husband refused?

     4      A.  I am not aware of that.  This is the first time I hear

     5          of it.

     6      Q.  Mrs. Grubac, can you confirm that the quieter ones that

     7          Mr. Mucic belonged to were against violence, and that as

     8          a result they were at risk in their own environments?

     9          This is similar to a question I have already put to

    10          you.  What is your own personal impression?  If you do

    11          not know, say that, please.

    12      MS. McHENRY:  If I may ask for clarification, I think there

    13          may have been a translation issue, and I just do not

    14          understand the question.  The transcript says:

    15                "Can you confirm that the quieter ones that

    16          Mr. Mucic belonged to ..."

    17                I just would ask --

    18      JUDGE JAN:  The quarter to which he belonged.

    19      MS. McHENRY:  Thank you, your Honour.

    20      A.  I think that they did not prevent crime, and by not

    21          preventing it, my opinion is that they condoned it.

    22      MR. OLUJIC:  Thank you, Mrs. Grubac, I have no further

    23          questions.

    24      A.  Thank you too.

    25      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, again it is going to take a second

Page 6227

     1          to get me plugged in.  May it please the court?

     2      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Yes, you may proceed.

     3                         Cross-examined by MR. MORAN

     4      Q.  Your Honour, I would ask to go into private session for

     5          a couple of minutes.  I want to talk about a subject

     6          that is rather delicate.

     7      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Let us go into private session.

     8                            (In closed session)

     9      (redacted)

    10      (redacted)

    11      (redacted)

    12      (redacted)

    13      (redacted)

    14      (redacted)

    15      (redacted)

    16      (redacted)

    17      (redacted)

    18      (redacted)

    19      (redacted)

    20      (redacted)

    21      (redacted)

    22      (redacted)

    23      (redacted)

    24      (redacted)

    25      (redacted)

Page 6228

     1      (redacted)

     2      (redacted)

     3      (redacted)

     4      (redacted)

     5      (redacted)

     6      (redacted)

     7      (redacted)

     8      (redacted)

     9      (redacted)

    10      (redacted)

    11      (redacted)

    12      (redacted)

    13.     (redacted)

    14      (redacted)

    15      (redacted)

    16      (redacted)

    17      (redacted)

    18      (redacted)

    19      (redacted)

    20      (redacted)

    21      (redacted)

    22      (redacted)

    23      (redacted)

    24      (redacted)

    25      (redacted)

Page 6229

     1      (redacted)

     2      (redacted)

     3      (redacted)

     4      (redacted)

     5      (redacted)

     6      (redacted)

     7      (redacted)

     8      (redacted)

     9      (redacted)

    10      (redacted)

    11      (redacted)

    12      (redacted)

    13      (redacted)

    14      (redacted)

    15      (redacted)

    16      (redacted)

    17      (redacted)

    18      (redacted)

    19      (redacted)

    20      (redacted)

    21      (redacted)

    22      (redacted)

    23      (redacted)

    24                             (In open session)

    25      MS. McMURREY:  Your Honour, we have no questions of this

Page 6230

     1          witness.  Thank you.

     2      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Is there any re-examination?

     3                        Re-examined by MS. McHENRY

     4      Q.  Just briefly, your Honour and I think it may have been a

     5          translation error.  I did not know whether it would be

     6          better to interrupt or ask.  Ma'am, at least the English

     7          translation of something you said in cross-examination,

     8          I believe to Mr. Olujic, said that two days after your

     9          husband was released from Celebici you and he were

    10          arrested again.  Did I understand that correctly?

    11      JUDGE JAN:  She said that, but actually it was two months.

    12          Her husband was released at the end of July and

    13          re-arrested in October.  She said two days but meant two

    14          months.

    15      A.  Yes.

    16      MS. McHENRY:  When you were re-arrested, when your husband

    17          was re-arrested and you were arrested, were you brought

    18          to Celebici or somewhere else where you then stayed for

    19          several months?

    20      A.  They took us to the MUP in Konjic, the police station in

    21          Konjic.

    22      MS. McHENRY:  Thank you.

    23      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  This is the end of your questioning.

    24          You are discharged.  You can go.  Thank you very much.

    25      A.  Thank you.

Page 6231

     1                          (The witness withdrew)

     2      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I think it is convenient for us to take

     3          the motion for protective measures.

     4      MR. NIEMANN:  As your Honour pleases.

     5      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  For the witness to come.

     6      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honour, with respect to the motion we have

     7          filed in this matter, I just wish to make a correction

     8          and a clarification if I may in relation to the written

     9          motion before I make any oral submissions on the

    10          matter.  Your Honours, firstly in paragraph 1, there is

    11          a reference to documents not being disclosed to the

    12          public and media.  That is slightly imprecise in the way

    13          it is expressed there, your Honour.  It should relate to

    14          if in the event of any photograph or sketch or some such

    15          matter in relation to the witness, should it ever be

    16          produced, that it not be released.  It is fairly

    17          unlikely, I would imagine, that that would occur.

    18                Also in relation to paragraph 2 of the relief

    19          requested, on page 3 of the motion, your Honours, there

    20          is a reference there to image and voice altering

    21          devices.  In fact, the relief requested is merely for

    22          image altering devices.  There is no request by the

    23          Prosecution for voice altering devices in relation to

    24          this witness.

    25                Your Honours, I do not think it is necessary for

Page 6232

     1          me to ask to go into private session at this stage in

     2          relation to the application, but it could do at some

     3          stage in the course of it.  If that occurs because of

     4          some matter that arises, I will seek your Honour's leave

     5          to do that, but simply the basis of the application is

     6          this, that the witness came to The Hague on the weekend

     7          of 10th August, which was last weekend, and soon after

     8          he arrived here he sought this measure of protection

     9          which is contained in the motion we have filed.  The

    10          witness is not seeking any other restriction, the

    11          transcript -- he is not seeking any restriction in

    12          relation to that.  He is not seeking any restriction in

    13          relation to his name or identity in that sense.  It

    14          merely is the visual presentation of his face that he is

    15          concerned about.

    16                Your Honours, he has said that he is in a part of

    17          Bosnia at the moment where there is a movement of

    18          peoples back into the area, and he has a wife and child

    19          and he considers that him giving evidence of the matters

    20          that happened to him, circumstances that he was placed

    21          in in the Celebici camp may cause him or his wife to be

    22          placed in danger.

    23                Your Honours, these issues are very hard to

    24          assess, but I think it is true there is a great deal of

    25          instability in Bosnia-Herzegovina and particularly in

Page 6233

     1          certain parts of it at the moment, and the Prosecution

     2          certainly has the view that the fear that he has is real

     3          fear and is justified in the circumstances, particularly

     4          in relation to the part of Bosnia where he is.

     5                This witness is an important witness to the

     6          Prosecution case.  He gives direct eyewitness testimony

     7          of matters which go to central parts of the Prosecution

     8          case and to specific counts in the indictment.  There is

     9          no evidence to suggest that the witness is anything but

    10          a trustworthy witness; indeed that criteria which was

    11          set out in the five criteria in both the Tadic case,

    12          which was adopted also in the Blaskic case, is probably

    13          not of great relevance, having regard to the fact that

    14          this is not an application for anonymity.  It is merely

    15          an application for the restriction on the level of

    16          publication.

    17                There is, as I mentioned, I think, yesterday,

    18          considerable constraints on the ability of the Tribunal

    19          to provide witness protection once they leave this

    20          Chamber.  I repeat what I said in that respect in this

    21          regard, that the most powerful protection that can be

    22          awarded to a witness is in the Chamber itself, and once

    23          they leave the Chamber it diminishes at a rapid rate

    24          until they go back to the place where they came from.

    25          If one is to be afforded the maximum protection that one

Page 6234

     1          can get, it is in fact during the course of the evidence

     2          and while they are here in The Hague.

     3                Finally, your Honours, in relation to the

     4          criteria, the measure that is sought is the least

     5          restrictive measure in relation to publicity that is

     6          sought.  When I say least restrictive, it does not

     7          entail any significant constraints on publication,

     8          merely the publication of the face.  As was observed,

     9          your Honours, in other cases relating to this question,

    10          the notion of public hearing and a fair trial must be

    11          interpreted, in our submission, in the context of the

    12          rather unique object and purpose of this Tribunal,

    13          namely that it is operating in an environment where,

    14          unlike, for example, the Nuremberg Tribunal, there is no

    15          direct control over what can happen in the former

    16          Yugoslavia where the witnesses live.  Because of that

    17          lack of control, which was not the case in relation to

    18          Nuremberg, the allied powers had control and could

    19          enforce their will.  That is certainly not the case

    20          here.  There is some measure of control, your Honours

    21          would no doubt observe with relation to the Dayton

    22          Agreement and the UNPROFOR but that, in our submission,

    23          is far short of anything that was available during the

    24          Nuremberg proceedings, and certainly it is a long, long

    25          way short of what happens with respect to courts in

Page 6235

     1          national jurisdictions where the court has at its

     2          disposal such matters as police forces and the like.

     3                In respect of that, your Honours, the measure

     4          sought in relation to this witness is, in our

     5          submission, the least restrictive that we could seek.

     6          It is, in our submission, justified and unless I can

     7          help your Honours with any other matter, it is our

     8          submission that it is appropriate in these circumstances

     9          to grant this measure of relief.  As your Honours

    10          please.

    11      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Do the Defence have any views on that?

    12      MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honour, the only concern that I would

    13          like to express is the indications are, and we still do

    14          not have the material to prove it yet, but we have been

    15          advised that the last witness who requested this

    16          identical protection, Mr. Sudar, had, prior to leaving to

    17          come here, given a full interview on Belgrade television

    18          which was run immediately after his testimony here.  If

    19          this witness has done a similar thing and done a

    20          television interview with Belgrade television or someone

    21          else, then it begins to appear that coming here and

    22          requesting this kind of protection is a bit gimmicky and

    23          may be sort of a way to make themselves feel important,

    24          "I went there and I got protection because I was so

    25          important".  If they are giving television interviews to

Page 6236

     1          Belgrade television before they come here, then there is

     2          not much need to give them even this level of

     3          protection, it would seem to me.

     4      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Your Honours, I was just going to present

     5          the same argument.  I can understand that every witness

     6          can refer to special circumstances and this court can

     7          provide protective measures, but yesterday Mr. Ackerman

     8          raised an important question at a private session, and

     9          I think that we must all bear in mind that when a

    10          witness goes back home he may be exposed to various

    11          risks there.

    12                However, in addition to these protective measures

    13          transforming this trial into a secret trial, there is

    14          also a danger that some witnesses, such as one who asked

    15          for protection here, only a day later appeared under his

    16          full name on Belgrade television.  Thank you.

    17      MR. OLUJIC:  Your Honours, with all due respect for my

    18          learned colleague on the Prosecution, any comparisons

    19          with the Nuremberg trial and everything else, I think

    20          that the spirit of the statute and the rules of

    21          procedure and evidence require, above all else, that the

    22          trial should be public.  For the trial to be public it

    23          also means that it should be fair.  The introduction of

    24          this kind of element as to whether a witness will have

    25          protection or not, and then later on we learn that in

Page 6237

     1          the mass media he is granting interviews, is simply a

     2          way of undermining this honourable court.  I would even

     3          go so far as to say that it shows lack of respect, to

     4          ask for protective measures in the courtroom, to engage

     5          the technical services to give such protective measures,

     6          and then to grant an interview on Belgrade television or

     7          anywhere else, could in fact be described as contempt of

     8          court, and that is why we are opposed to such a carte

     9          blanche approach.  Certainly, yes, for protective

    10          measures when this is warranted, and, of course, we can

    11          check the real need for it, but we would be against it

    12          becoming the rule.

    13      MR. KARABDIC:  Your Honour, the Defence of Hazim Delic cannot

    14          accept the reasons given by the Prosecution in their

    15          motion.  The return of refugees is one of the key

    16          provisions of the peace accords, and it is the duty of

    17          this Tribunal, too, to work for the maintenance of

    18          peace, as it was established by the security council in

    19          line with the provisions of Chapter 7 of the Charter.

    20          To claim that the implementation of the Dayton Accords,

    21          with respect to refugees has some effect especially in

    22          view of the very limited number of refugees that are

    23          going back, and it is quite obvious that he is living in

    24          Republika Srpska, where very few refugees have returned

    25          to, and to claim that he is running a risk going there

Page 6238

     1          I think is really ridiculing the peace process in

     2          itself, which would mean that the peace process, as

     3          such, is a source of danger, and I think that such

     4          arguments cannot be accepted and should be rejected.

     5      MS. McMURREY:  Just if I might be heard for one second.

     6          There is one question that needs to be determined --

     7      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  You do not deserve to be heard after

     8          Mr. Ackerman has spoken.  You should have asked your lead

     9          counsel if you should do that.

    10      MS. McMURREY:  So I am not going to be allowed to ask the

    11          one question?

    12      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I would prefer it that way.

    13      MS. McMURREY:  Thank you, your Honour.

    14      JUDGE JAN:  Did Sudar appear on Belgrade television after

    15          appearing before us and seeking protection?  This makes

    16          the whole claim rather ridiculous.

    17      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honours, I have not seen --

    18      JUDGE JAN:  Although I would say, just because one witness

    19          has abused the concession granted to him, it does not

    20          mean it should be denied to everyone else.  This is a

    21          very serious question.

    22      MR. NIEMANN:  It does, your Honour.  I would indeed be very

    23          disappointed if that happened, but I find it surprising

    24          for it to be suggested by Mr. Olujic that it did happen,

    25          considering that we made enquiries of the Victims and

Page 6239

     1          Witnesses Unit; we were informed at the time that this

     2          matter went to air in Belgrade, the witness was still in

     3          The Hague and had not left, so it seems to us, your

     4          Honour, that allegations of contempt and others -- if it

     5          is correct he was still in The Hague at the time, is a

     6          very serious thing to say of the witness, but we are

     7          still pursuing our enquiries, because we want to find

     8          out what the facts are, rather than rely on innuendo,

     9          suggestion and rumour.

    10                Your Honours, it is possible that this witness

    11          gave an interview before he came to The Hague.  That is

    12          in itself an unfortunate thing, it is not something we,

    13          the Prosecution, knew about.  It is possible he gave an

    14          interview beforehand, which is what Mr. Ackerman has

    15          suggested, and that that was published afterwards.  We

    16          will pursue the matter and we will find out.  In

    17          relation to it, your Honours, you are quite right; it

    18          should not be that because one witness does something

    19          like that that all other witnesses should be punished as

    20          a consequence of it.  Certainly so far as we are

    21          concerned, we do all we can to discourage this sort of

    22          thing, particularly after the events, because it does

    23          fly in the face of the court's order and it is most

    24          unfortunate.  Of course, as your Honours have realised

    25          we have absolutely no control over it.  If they do it

Page 6240

     1          when they go back there, whether or not it amounts to

     2          contempt, I would be very surprised.

     3                Your Honours, the issue about secret trials in my

     4          submission is really overstating the matter

     5          considerably.  This is not a question of a secret

     6          trial.  In most jurisdictions video links to the outside

     7          mass media are unheard of, but the court is open, people

     8          can come in here, sit in the gallery, listen to the

     9          case, listen to the evidence.  The only thing they are

    10          prevented from seeing is the face.  In my submission it

    11          is no different to any other public hearing; there is no

    12          restriction on the transcript or anything of the sort.

    13          To suggest secret trials really is going too far.  A

    14          secret trial is if we shut the blinds down and nobody

    15          could see it and the transcript was restricted.  That is

    16          not our submission.  In my submission, that is a highly

    17          exaggerated suggestion.  Your Honours, unless I can

    18          assist you with anything else.

    19      MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honour, just very briefly, I think I

    20          failed a moment ago by being imprecise.  What I was

    21          trying to suggest, and apparently failed, was that

    22          before the court makes a decision about the matter with

    23          regard to this witness, we at least enquire whether or

    24          not he has given such an interview prior to coming

    25          here.  If he has then it does not make any sense to give

Page 6241

     1          him this protection.  That is what I was trying to

     2          suggest, and apparently did not do it well.

     3      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Actually, I share Mr. John Ackerman's

     4          view, and it is a way of safeguarding whether such

     5          interviews have been made, so before such applications

     6          are brought, there should be an undertaking from any of

     7          these witnesses that they have not conducted themselves

     8          in that manner.  So if they now do, that will amount to

     9          a contempt of the Tribunal.

    10                But otherwise, I do not think, in the

    11          circumstances of this application -- we find that the

    12          Prosecution did not know of it before now, it was

    13          definitely not possible for them to have circulated the

    14          application so that we can provide for these

    15          exigencies.  In any event, what it is now asking this

    16          Trial Chamber to do is just to alter the image of the

    17          witness and nothing more.  His voice will be heard as it

    18          is.  Those who can recognise him by his voice will still

    19          do so, and his identity will only be obscured to that

    20          extent.

    21                I do not know how the Trial Chamber can enforce

    22          the third condition which you said, not taking his

    23          photograph while he is "in the precincts of the

    24          International Tribunal", because they would not have

    25          known about this order.  This order is just being made,

Page 6242

     1          and whoever is freelance around here, and does not know

     2          about this order, might proceed to do so.  That is a

     3          fairly difficult one for the Trial Chamber to

     4          safeguard.

     5      MR. NIEMANN:  Yes, your Honour, and I would imagine that any

     6          photographs taken thus far, or sketches drawn thus far,

     7          of course, the order does not apply so it would not

     8          operate in relation to that, and indeed, I would imagine

     9          that if your Honour's order were made in relation to

    10          paragraph 3 and was not known, it would be difficult as

    11          well, but I am really talking more in the precincts of

    12          the public gallery and in the Chamber itself.

    13      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Definitely in the Chamber we can

    14          prevent that, but outside, "in the precincts of the

    15          International Tribunal", that is not just in the

    16          Chamber.

    17      MR. NIEMANN:  I understand, your Honour.  In respect of that,

    18          we would be content to amend it to say, "in the Chamber

    19          of the International Tribunal", instead of the word

    20          "precincts", if that makes it more effective in terms

    21          of your Honours' powers to enforce.

    22      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  In my view, it is safer to keep it

    23          within paragraph 2 as amended.

    24      MR. NIEMANN:  That is the main thrust of our request, your

    25          Honour, yes.

Page 6243

     1      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  That is the only thing we can do.  If

     2          we leave it to paragraph 2 then it covers it.  If you

     3          ask me too, I do not share the view it is a secret

     4          trial, because if you can hear his voice clearly

     5          everywhere, there is no secrecy about what is

     6          happening.  Thank you.  We will grant the application.

     7      JUDGE JAN:  Do check up whether he has already made a

     8          statement to the television.

     9      MR. NIEMANN:  I will certainly do that, your Honour.  Might

    10          I be excused to speak to the witness, your Honour?

    11      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Please do.  The Trial Chamber will now

    12          have a break and come back at 11.45.

    13      (11.15 am)

    14                                (A short break)

    15      (11.45 am)

    16      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you.

    17      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honours, just two matters, if I may.

    18          Firstly, dealing with the question of whether or not the

    19          witness for whom I have just made application for

    20          protective measures, Hristo Vukalo, has given interviews

    21          in the past; he tells me he has not given an interview

    22          in the past and he tells me he does not wish to give an

    23          interview in the future and he will not do so, about the

    24          testimony he is going to give.

    25                The second issue your Honours is that we have been

Page 6244

     1          investigating the question of whether Branko Sudar, the

     2          one that was the previous witness that had protective

     3          measures did in fact give an interview to Belgrade

     4          television, since it was raised by the Defence to us the

     5          other day.  Not only did we ascertain as a consequence

     6          of our enquiries that he was here at the time and could

     7          not have done it then, but what we have now discovered,

     8          your Honours, we have been informed by at least one

     9          person who was watching Belgrade television, that there

    10          was indeed a programme where Branko Sudar appeared, as

    11          evidenced.  It was in fact a take off the Tribunal's

    12          broadcast which went to some British television studio

    13          and was then sent to Belgrade that had the face

    14          distortion which was applied by the technicians in this

    15          Tribunal.  So it was nothing more than an extract of his

    16          evidence in this court.  We are still continuing with

    17          our enquiries in relation to that.

    18      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Apart from that, apart from Mr. Vukalo's

    19          wish not to give any interviews, if you extract an

    20          undertaking from him that he would not, that is quite a

    21          different thing from his voluntary decision not to.

    22      MR. NIEMANN:  I did ask him, your Honour, whether he would be

    23          prepared to give an undertaking not to do so and he told

    24          me that he would.

    25      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  With the Sudar thing, it is a difficult

Page 6245

     1          thing to imagine why they would relay the network from a

     2          British television --

     3      MR. NIEMANN:  It comes from the Tribunal, your Honour, out

     4          through the outlets to British television apparently.

     5          Then it was transmitted to Belgrade and apparently what

     6          appeared on Belgrade television was exactly what

     7          appeared here.

     8      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  His distorted image, not an interview

     9          he gave?

    10      MR. NIEMANN:  No, a reproduction of what appeared in the

    11          Chamber.

    12      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you very much.  Let us continue

    13          with Mr. Vukalo.

    14      MR. NIEMANN:  As your Honours please.  I call Mr. Vukalo.

    15                           Hristo Vukalo (sworn)

    16                           Examined by MR. NIEMANN

    17      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  You can take your seat.

    18      A.  Thank you.

    19      MR. NIEMANN:  Would you please state your full name?

    20      A.  My name is Risto Vukalo.

    21      Q.  Mr. Vukalo, I should inform you that the court has

    22          granted you certain protective measures in relation to

    23          the giving of your testimony in these proceedings,

    24          insofar as the image of your face by mechanical means

    25          has been distorted on the television as it is

Page 6246

     1          transmitted from the Tribunal.  Do you understand that?

     2      A.  Yes, I do.  Thank you.

     3      Q.  Mr. Vukalo, could you please give your place of birth?

     4      A.  I was born in Bjelovcina, in the municipality of Konjic.

     5      Q.  What is your date of birth?

     6      A.  I was born on 29th March in 1964.

     7      Q.  Where did you receive your education?

     8      A.  I completed four grades of elementary school in the

     9          elementary school in Bjelovcina.

    10      Q.  Did you continue your education after that?

    11      A.  Yes, I did.  Then I completed the rest of the grades, up

    12          on the eighth grade of elementary school, in the town of

    13          Konjic, in a school which was called is Zuonimir Nono

    14          Belsa in Musala, and I completed secondary school also

    15          in Konjic, machine technical school.

    16      Q.  At the machine technical school, were you given special

    17          training in any particular profession or trade?

    18      A.  I became a mechanic to operate machine tools.

    19      Q.  Mr. Vukalo, did you do your military service with the

    20          JNA?

    21      A.  Yes, I served my military service with the JNA as a

    22          person of limited capacity, and this was due to my heart

    23          surgery.

    24      Q.  When did you do your JNA training in the limited

    25          capacity?  What year, can you recall, approximately?

Page 6247

     1      A.  Yes, I can.  I went to the army in 1984 in the month of

     2          November.  I do not remember the exact date.  I served,

     3          I completed my service in 1985 in December.  It was a

     4          full service term.

     5      Q.  Thank you.  Sir, what is your ethnic background?

     6      A.  Serb.

     7      Q.  Prior to 1992, were you in employment?

     8      A.  Yes, I was.

     9      Q.  What was your employment?

    10      A.  I worked with a firm -- actually in a factory in

    11          Slovenia.  It was a Serb firm from Vranje.  It was

    12          called SZP.

    13      Q.  What was the main product produced by this firm?  What

    14          did they do?

    15      A.  I worked as a welder.

    16      Q.  Prior to 1992 where was your residence?  Where did you

    17          live?

    18      A.  Let me just say this, I found employment in 1990 at

    19          Igman in Konjic, and I lived in Bjelovcina.

    20      Q.  Were you still working at Igman just prior to the

    21          outbreak of military activity of 1992?

    22      A.  Yes, I was.

    23      Q.  Where were you living just prior to the outbreak of

    24          military activity in 1992?

    25      A.  I was living in Bjelovcina.

Page 6248

     1      Q.  Were you married then?

     2      A.  Yes, and I have a child.

     3      Q.  Did you have an any children at that time?

     4      A.  Yes, it was four years old at the time.

     5      Q.  Sir, were you yourself engaged in any form of military

     6          activity in the months leading up to the commencement of

     7          military activity in 1992, in the early part of 1992?

     8      A.  No.

     9      Q.  Approximately when did you cease working?

    10      A.  Somewhere in the beginning of April they told us to go,

    11          or perhaps it was in March.  I am not quite sure.

    12          Actually, we were assigned to the so-called waiting

    13          list, saying that we were redundant, that there was no

    14          work.

    15      Q.  This is the waiting list at the firm that you worked

    16          for?

    17      A.  Yes, and not only I myself but many Serbs too.

    18      Q.  What were you doing between the period when you stopped

    19          employment up until the commencement of military

    20          activity?

    21      A.  I stayed at home, I worked the land.

    22      Q.  Can you remember when it was that the military activity

    23          commenced in and around the area where you lived?

    24      A.  Before my village was attacked some checkpoints had been

    25          erected on the approaches to the town of Konjic.  They

Page 6249

     1          were set up by the Muslim and Croat population.

     2      Q.  Are you able to give the Chamber an approximate month

     3          when these checkpoints were first established in 1992?

     4      A.  When they were established exactly for the first time

     5          I do not know, but I do know that there were checkpoints

     6          in April, because I could not go to the town.

     7      Q.  Can you recall what date it was when Bjelovcina itself

     8          was attacked?

     9      A.  It was attacked on 20th May 1992.

    10      Q.  Where were you when Bjelovcina was attacked?

    11      A.  On that day, with my father I was bringing the hay

    12          inside the barn, and approximately around 4.00 or 5.00

    13          pm, in the afternoon, firing could be heard from the

    14          direction of the village of Donje Selo and Cerici, the

    15          villages of Donje Selo and Cerici.

    16      Q.  When you heard this firing commence, what did you do?

    17      A.  I left whatever I was doing.  I entered the house and my

    18          father went in the direction of a meadow where we had

    19          sheep to drive them back to their barn.  I did not know

    20          what was happening.

    21      Q.  Apart from your father, was anyone else with you at this

    22          time?

    23      A.  My wife and my child were in the house, my mother and my

    24          brother.

    25      Q.  As the firing and the military action intensified, did

Page 6250

     1          you then seek shelter anywhere?

     2      A.  No, after some 40 minutes or so, firing started at my

     3          hamlet from the five houses -- of the five houses which

     4          were the household -- where the households all bear the

     5          surnames of Vukalo.  We could hear the firing and the

     6          shooting at the houses and there was shooting at the

     7          houses from the direction of the hill of Lovno, and from

     8          the direction of the villages of Hasanovici and Balmis,

     9          some 200 to 300 metres away from my hamlet.

    10      Q.  What happened?  What did you do?

    11      A.  We were frightened, we were surprised.  They shot at the

    12          yards, at the houses, the children, the women, the

    13          elderly and the sick.  All were fleeing every which way,

    14          actually towards the forest which was some 200 to 300

    15          metres away from that place.

    16      Q.  Did you yourself flee into the forest?

    17      A.  Of course, with my wife and child and my mother and

    18          brother, and the other neighbours, women and children

    19          from among these five households.

    20      Q.  When you went into the forest, did you take any arms

    21          with you, weapons?

    22      A.  No.

    23      Q.  Did you have any arms or weapons in the house at the

    24          time of the attack?

    25      A.  No, I did not.

Page 6251

     1      Q.  How long did you stay in the forest?

     2      A.  Until the next morning.

     3      Q.  Then what did you do?

     4      A.  Early in the morning, I do not recall the exact hour, we

     5          returned to our houses.

     6      Q.  Did that include your wife and child and your mother?

     7      A.  Yes, all of us.

     8      Q.  At that stage, did you see or know of anyone who was

     9          defending the village against the people that were

    10          attacking it?

    11      A.  My neighbourhood, my hamlet was away from the other

    12          houses -- distanced from the other houses some 500 or

    13          1,000 metres, up to 1 kilometre.  I did not hear any

    14          shooting coming from the village.

    15      Q.  At this stage did you know who it was that was attacking

    16          the village?

    17      A.  When they were shooting at the houses they were

    18          shrieking, singing, actually howling.  It was clear to

    19          me that they were -- I could make out that they were

    20          saying some words like "Allah U Akbar".

    21      Q.  From those words did you deduce who these people were?

    22      A.  Yes, of course.

    23      Q.  Who was that?

    24      A.  They were Muslims and Croats from the nearby villages.

    25      Q.  Thank you.  The village of Bjelovcina, can you tell us

Page 6252

     1          what the make-up of the population is in terms of

     2          ethnicity; that is your village.

     3      A.  The village of Bjelovcina had some 50 to 60 households.

     4          Of these households, four perhaps were Muslim and six to

     5          seven Croat households.  It was surrounded by eight or

     6          more Muslim and Croat villages.

     7      Q.  What was the majority ethnic population of Bjelovcina?

     8      A.  The majority in the village of Bjelovcina were Serbs.

     9      Q.  Were you able to observe what the village was being

    10          attacked with in terms of weapons?

    11      A.  They shot bursts from automatic weapons.

    12      Q.  Do you recall whether any mortar or heavy artillery was

    13          being fired at the village at the time?

    14      A.  Yes, rifle grenades were being fired, and on the next

    15          day, which is to say on 21st May, I also heard shells,

    16          but they were not quite near.  They were falling

    17          somewhere on the lower section of the village.  In fact

    18          I heard two of them land.

    19      Q.  Were you aware of whether or not the JNA or the army of

    20          the Republika Srpska was operational in the area?

    21      A.  Before this began the JNA had military centres in

    22          Celebici; actually the military barracks was there, and

    23          then in Ljuta and Konjic and Zlatar, they were driven

    24          away, and in Celebici, the soldiers of the Yugoslav

    25          People's Army were captured.  This is what I heard from

Page 6253

     1          my neighbours.  They were taken, as I heard to Split, so

     2          that there was no Yugoslav People's Army there at the

     3          time.  In the village there was no Serb Army.

     4      Q.  Was there any other form of organised armed resistance

     5          to this attack that you were aware of at that time?

     6      A.  You cannot talk about some organised resistance, there

     7          were 50 or 60 able bodied men there, not more than that,

     8          not many.

     9      Q.  Were they engaged in defending the village?

    10      A.  On the part of the population of the village of

    11          Bjelovcina, I did not hear either then or later that

    12          they had put up any resistance.

    13      Q.  You say that you returned to the village the next day,

    14          21st May, after spending the night in the forest.  What

    15          happened then, can you tell us?

    16      A.  Yes, when we came to our house it was chaos.  The doors

    17          were broken down, the windows had been torn down.

    18          Everything was upside down in the house and furniture

    19          was broken.  It looked like a storm had swept through

    20          the house.

    21      Q.  What did you then do?

    22      A.  We then stayed in the house repairing things and putting

    23          things back in their places, somewhere around 9.00 in

    24          the morning on 21st May, we saw some 200 to 300 metres

    25          from the houses, in the hamlet, across the meadow called

Page 6254

     1          Lopata, we saw three or four soldiers running towards

     2          our houses.

     3      Q.  When you saw this happen, did you decide to do

     4          something?

     5      A.  When they came to a distance of perhaps 150 metres away

     6          from us, they ran to it, to that point, they opened fire

     7          again at this hamlet of mine.  Then we fled again in the

     8          direction of the forest with the women and children, the

     9          elderly, the infirm.

    10      Q.  Did you reach a time when you actually went down to the

    11          soldiers?

    12      A.  The soldiers kept shooting and calling out.  Who in his

    13          right mind dare approach them?  There was no warning and

    14          they shot at you immediately.  So I went down,

    15          I descended below a large rock, under a rock, and my

    16          wife and my child did not manage to get out of that

    17          forest.  She and the child were taken and taken away.

    18      Q.  Who took them away?

    19      A.  This Muslim army, Muslim soldiers and Croats.

    20      Q.  Were you then later taken away by the soldiers?

    21      A.  No, we went down not knowing what to do.  We went down

    22          to the Muslim village called Kralupi and a relative of

    23          mine, when we were about 200 metres from the village of

    24          Kralupi, this relative went to see his bestman, Vahid

    25          and Amir Dzalilovic, because we did not dare go in with

Page 6255

     1          the women and children, fearing that they would shoot at

     2          us from the village of Kralupi.

     3      Q.  What happened then?

     4      A.  Then Amir came, Amir Dzalilovic and he took us in front

     5          of a house where there were a lot of soldiers, Muslims

     6          and Croats, some of whom I knew.

     7      Q.  What happened then?

     8      A.  Then this Dzalilovic, Arif, took me and my brother, Cedo

     9          and Davor, to his home and my mother and the other women

    10          and the others, they stayed behind in front of some sort

    11          of a small command in Kralupi that they had, near Arif's

    12          house.  Vahid Macic came and he used to work with me in

    13          Igman, he was armed wearing a camouflage uniform, and a

    14          young man from the village of Turija, a Croat whom I did

    15          not know.

    16      Q.  Macic, was he with the Muslim army?

    17      A.  Yes, he was armed, but he was not with the Muslims.

    18          There were Muslim soldiers in this village of Kralupi,

    19          but somebody had probably reported to some higher level

    20          command that we had got there, that we had arrived in

    21          Kralupi and he was probably sent to take me there.

    22      Q.  What happened to you when you went there?

    23      A.  As soon as he came he cursed me, but he did not hit me.

    24          They took us to Vejsil Salilovic's house, me and my

    25          brother Branko.

Page 6256

     1      Q.  At the time when you made Vahid Masic, were you or your

     2          brother or anyone in the group that you were with

     3          carrying any weapons?

     4      A.  No.

     5      Q.  What happened next?  What was the next thing to occur?

     6      A.  All the way, Vahid Masic cursed, but he did not hit me

     7          or my brother.  When we got to Vejsil Salilovic's house

     8          near the elementary school in Bjelovcina we saw a lot of

     9          armed men, soldiers, and as soon as they approached one

    10          of them hit my brother.  I did not know this man.  He

    11          fell and then they started beating him.  They shouted

    12          "kill the Chetniks", then they started beating me as

    13          well.

    14      Q.  Did you recognise any of the people that were beating

    15          you?

    16      A.  Yes, while I was on the ground covered in blood, Redzo

    17          Balic from the village of Zukici took out a knife and he

    18          was shrieking, he wanted to cut my throat and he pressed

    19          it against my neck.  Then another soldier, I do not know

    20          who he was, pulled him away, because he was kneeling on

    21          my chest.  I did not faint, but I was badly beaten up.

    22          My nose was bleeding, there was blood coming out of my

    23          mouth.  Then they took me, Smajic was there, I do not

    24          know his name but I know his nickname, he was known as

    25          Duda.  They took me to a house 50 metres away, it is 50

Page 6257

     1          metres from Vejsil's house to this one.  The house was

     2          owned by Boza Tomic.

     3      Q.  Smajic, was he a soldier or one of the people that had

     4          been captured?

     5      A.  He was in uniform, a Muslim with a rifle.

     6      Q.  What happened to you when you got to Tomic's house?

     7      A.  They took me upstairs on the first floor of the house

     8          into the room where this Duda hit me again and he

     9          ordered me to lie down on the floor.  He hit me with his

    10          rifle butt, he kicked me with his soldier's boots and

    11          with a stick made from a cable.

    12      Q.  What part of his body -- what part of your body was he

    13          hitting you on?

    14      A.  He was hitting me most on my back and all over the body,

    15          but most on my back and legs.  Then later he found a

    16          broom.  I was fainting in the meantime.  When he found

    17          this broom, then he hit me with that too, and he was

    18          joined by a blond man, younger than me, I do not know

    19          his name.  I know he was a Croat, and so the two of them

    20          hit me.

    21      Q.  You say you fainted.  Did you faint or lose

    22          consciousness just the once or did that happen a number

    23          of times?

    24      A.  I fainted several times, but they poured water over me.

    25      Q.  When this happened, you were brought back to

Page 6258

     1          consciousness?

     2      A.  Yes.

     3      Q.  Apart from you, was anyone else being beaten at this

     4          time and at this place?

     5      A.  There was just me upstairs with these two people, Duda

     6          and this other Croat soldier.

     7      Q.  What happened then?

     8      A.  They beat me for about an hour in that room, and then

     9          they told me to go down to the cellar.  I could not

    10          walk, because my legs would not hold me, they were so

    11          painful.  So they pulled me down the steps.

    12      Q.  When you say "they", do you know who it was that pulled

    13          you down the steps?

    14      A.  These torturers of mine, the people who had beaten me in

    15          the room, Duda and this soldier from Turija whose name

    16          I do not know.

    17      Q.  When you got down to the cellar, what happened then?

    18      A.  They threw me against a wall and I sat down.  I saw the

    19          owner of the house there, Boza Tomic, who was also

    20          covered in blood.  My brother was also there, and Vlado

    21          Vukalo, Milenko Vukalo.  They did not beat me much

    22          there.  They did slap us, one of the soldiers, I do not

    23          know which one.

    24      Q.  What was the next thing that happened?

    25      A.  Then they took us in the direction of the village of

Page 6259

     1          Pokojiste.  I could not walk so this Croat soldier had

     2          to help me, and it is with his help that I somehow

     3          managed to reach Pokojiste.  They took us to Branko

     4          Jozic's house, he was also known as Aga.  They leant me

     5          up against a wall, also in a sitting position.  I was

     6          leaned up against a wall and I saw many soldiers there,

     7          in uniform and armed, and among them I recognised some

     8          of my neighbours.

     9      Q.  Are you able to name some of the neighbours that you

    10          saw?

    11      A.  Yes, I recognised Ivica Kozaric, a Croat from that

    12          village; Niko Jozic, a Croat from that village; Branko

    13          Jozic, known as Aga, because the command there,

    14          I realised then, was situated in his house, this was a

    15          higher level command.

    16      Q.  These people that you have just named, these Croats you

    17          just named, were they in uniform at the time?

    18      A.  Yes, they were in uniform and carrying rifles.

    19      Q.  Once you arrived at this command centre, where were you

    20          then taken?

    21      A.  They did not hit me there, but two people sat next to me

    22          and hit me on the nose.  They did curse me, and later a

    23          van appeared.  They took my shoes off and they took me,

    24          my brother, Boza Tomic, Vlado Vukalo, Milenko Vukalo, to

    25          the motel in Konjic.  I observed that there were very

Page 6260

     1          many soldiers there.

     2      Q.  Was this at the motel where there were many soldiers?

     3      A.  Yes, the Konjic motel.

     4      Q.  Were these soldiers also in uniform and armed?

     5      A.  Yes, of course.

     6      Q.  Do you know who it was that took you to the motel?

     7      A.  I do not know the driver, I do not know the two armed

     8          soldiers -- I do not know what they were called.  I just

     9          know they were Muslims.

    10      Q.  When you got to the motel where did they take you then?

    11      A.  They took the whole group, Vlado, my brother, Milenko,

    12          Boza Tomic and myself upstairs to a room, a room for

    13          guests before the war, it was a hotel room.  They told

    14          us that we should rest there and two armed soldiers

    15          guarded us.

    16      Q.  Approximately what time was this in the day or night?

    17      A.  It was on 21st in the evening, just before dark fell --

    18          no, it was already dark.  I do not know what the time

    19          was.  However, sleeping was out of the question.  Every

    20          five minutes, these two would come in and hit us, kick

    21          us, they would curse at us.

    22      Q.  When you say these two, do you mean the two soldiers

    23          that were guarding you?

    24      A.  Yes, I am implying those two guards.

    25      Q.  What happened the next morning?

Page 6261

     1      A.  In the morning, I do not know what time it was, it was

     2          early, it had already dawned, they told us to go down,

     3          they would apparently give us some breakfast and

     4          coffee.  We went down to the hall -- the dining room,

     5          actually.  However, nothing came of breakfast and

     6          coffee.  I saw there somebody from Celebici, Masic.

     7          I think his surname was Masic.  I cannot recall his

     8          first name, known as Barba, that was his nickname.  He

     9          was in uniform, and he took us into the kitchen one by

    10          one and beat us there.  This fate befell me too.

    11      Q.  Did they say anything to you when they took you into the

    12          kitchen and beat you?

    13      A.  He would just call out, one by one, "into the kitchen",

    14          beat us up there and shove us back and then the next

    15          one's turn would come so that Vlado, Milenko, Boza,

    16          Branko and myself had the same treatment.

    17      Q.  What was the next thing to happen?

    18      A.  After that Duda arrived, the one I have already

    19          mentioned, and a boy from Zlaticevo, a soldier, I do not

    20          know his first or second name, and they took me alone

    21          upstairs, into a room upstairs.  Here they started to

    22          hit me.  They hit me all over my body, and I had already

    23          previously been beaten up.  I could only just keep

    24          conscious, and then someone walked in, I think he was an

    25          officer of that Muslim army at the time.  Later, I saw

Page 6262

     1          him when I was working in the town of Konjic, outside

     2          the command building, which was just in front of the

     3          Standard, across the way from the Standard.  He asked me

     4          whether I had a wish.  He behaved correctly, I am

     5          thinking of the officer, and he said -- and I said that

     6          I would like to see my wife and child if possible.  For

     7          a moment he interrupted the beating and the torturing by

     8          my torturers.  My wife came, after about 15 or 20

     9          minutes.  They brought her into the room where I was,

    10          bloodstained, lying on the bed.

    11      Q.  What did your wife do when she came into the room?

    12      A.  She cried.

    13      Q.  Did they do anything to your wife when she cried?

    14      A.  Yes, they said that she would suffer the same fate as I,

    15          that she was a Chetnik woman.  However, only one of them

    16          slapped her, and this officer took her away, and

    17          I suppose they took her back to Musala, the sports hall,

    18          where my child and father were also imprisoned and some

    19          other women and children.  That was a prison by then

    20          already.

    21      Q.  After your wife left, was anyone else brought into the

    22          room then, any other prisoners brought into the room?

    23      A.  Yes, after that they brought in Slobodan Babic and

    24          Novica Ivkovic from my village.

    25      Q.  When they brought those two in, what happened then?

Page 6263

     1      A.  Duda, whom I have already mentioned, and this soldier

     2          from Zlaticevo and some others started to hit us.  They

     3          hit us all over, but mostly on the back.  I fell between

     4          two beds, I fainted, and then they probably stopped

     5          hitting me.  When I came to, being busy with the other

     6          two, Slobodan Babic and Novica Ivkovic, they were

     7          hitting them a lot, I raised myself to the bed --

     8          actually, no, I must correct myself.  I do not know how

     9          I got to the bed from the floor, somebody may have

    10          lifted me up.  I was lying on the bed, anyway.  I came

    11          to, and I saw well with my own eyes when Duda cut with

    12          his knife.  I do not know whether it was his right or

    13          left hand, lower hand, below the elbow, he cut off a

    14          piece of flesh with a knife to Novica Ivkovic.  Then he

    15          trampled on Slobodan Babic's chest.  He broke his arm

    16          because he trampled on his arm too.  Others hit him as

    17          well, and they took turns coming in and out.  I do not

    18          even know who they were in the end.  They were all

    19          wearing uniforms.

    20                Then Duda, with a rifle, pushed the barrel into

    21          Slobodan Babic's mouth and perforated his palate.  He

    22          was covered in blood, and he could no longer speak.  He

    23          was just gargling.  This went on, I do not know exactly,

    24          I think until about 2.00 in the afternoon and then this

    25          officer came whom I had mentioned, saying he was more or

Page 6264

     1          less correct with us, because he did not hit us.  He

     2          interrupted this torture.  He was shoving the soldiers

     3          out, and he told us to go downstairs.

     4                Novica went on his two feet; I was helped by a

     5          soldier, whom I do not know, but I somehow managed to

     6          get back on my feet.  I saw that Slobodan could not

     7          stand at all.  Then Duda and another soldier dragged him

     8          down the stairs, and his head was hitting the steps.

     9          They were laughing while they did it, and making jokes

    10          about it.

    11      Q.  When you were in the motel, did anyone offer you or did

    12          you receive medical treatment?

    13      A.  I was going to say that, I forgot.  Actually, this

    14          officer, when he managed to stop the beatings, asked we

    15          would like to see a doctor.  Of course we needed a

    16          doctor.  A lady doctor arrived who had worked in Konjic,

    17          in the hospital, before the war, and a male nurse,

    18          called Vinko Jozic, whom I knew.

    19      Q.  Did you know the ethnic background of the doctor?

    20      A.  Yes, the doctor, she was Muslim, and the male nurse was

    21          a Croat.  When they came in, the two of them, into the

    22          room, the room appeared like a slaughterhouse.  There

    23          was blood on the walls, on the beds, it looked awful.

    24          She said, referring to Slobodan Babic, that he was

    25          apparently drunk and that he had fallen and hurt

Page 6265

     1          himself, and she was laughing as she said it.  She said

     2          that we did not need any assistance, though we were all

     3          covered in blood.  However, I asked this male nurse to

     4          bandage my right -- I think it was my right, because

     5          I felt nothing in the elbow area, I thought it was

     6          broken.  He said he dared not from the doctor, and when

     7          she walked out for a couple of minutes, she went out for

     8          a couple of minutes, she left the room, he did bandage

     9          my arm, or rather he tied it round my neck and he did

    10          not dare give any treatment to Slobodan.

    11                As for Novica where the flesh has been cut off by

    12          Duda, he quickly bandaged it before the doctor came back

    13          and then both of them left, the doctor and the nurse.

    14      Q.  Were you taken from the motel to another place?

    15      A.  Yes.

    16      Q.  Where were you taken?

    17      A.  When I got outside in front of the motel I saw Mirko

    18          Babic.  He was black and blue from blows and there was

    19          blood on his head and they loaded me into a car that was

    20          parked in front of the motel.

    21      Q.  When you say they, do you know who it was who loaded you

    22          into the car?

    23      A.  Yes, the soldiers, but I do not know their names or

    24          surnames, they were in uniform.  They were there in the

    25          motel.

Page 6266

     1      Q.  After you were loaded into the car, were you taken

     2          somewhere?

     3      A.  Yes, I and Mirko Babic were taken to Celebici, and there

     4          they put us into number 22 where that camp had been

     5          founded.  We were there in Celebici.

     6      Q.  You say number 22, do you mean room number 22?

     7      A.  Hangar number 22.

     8      Q.  And Celebici is the former JNA camp?

     9      A.  Yes, it was the former JNA barracks, a smaller barracks.

    10      Q.  Were there many people in room 22 when you first arrived

    11          there?

    12      A.  When I entered this hangar number 22, I found there,

    13          among those I knew, Veljko Babic from my village, and

    14          also the following people I will mention are from my

    15          village, Ranko Dordic, Scepo Vukalo, and about six or

    16          seven men from the village of Brjdani who had already

    17          been there five or ten days before, I do not know how

    18          many days before, but they were there when we arrived.

    19          So they were the first detainees of the Celebici camp.

    20      Q.  Can you describe the interior of room 22 when you first

    21          arrived at the Celebici camp?

    22      A.  It was like a warehouse for fire extinguishers.  There

    23          were quite a number of water hoses there, pumps used for

    24          firefighting equipment, there was quite a bit of that

    25          equipment there.

Page 6267

     1      Q.  Was there any bedding in room 22 when you first arrived?

     2      A.  No, there were no beds.

     3      Q.  Was there any medical supplies that you could see when

     4          you first arrived?

     5      A.  I do not understand.  Could you repeat the question,

     6          please?

     7      Q.  I am sorry.  Did you see any medical equipment or

     8          medicines or things of that nature in room 22 when you

     9          first arrived there?

    10      A.  I understand now.  No, I did not see any of that.

    11      Q.  You have already mentioned quite a number of people that

    12          you saw in room 22.  Are you able to estimate

    13          approximately how many people were detained there, in

    14          room 22?

    15      A.  When I arrived there, when I was brought in to 22, there

    16          were about 12 or 15 men.  I do not know the exact

    17          number, but I think there were not more than 15, but

    18          later, they were brought in in groups.  From my village,

    19          from the Donje Selo and from the village of Cerici, so

    20          that by nightfall, there were many of us there.  There

    21          were so many that we could hardly stand inside in the

    22          hangar.

    23      Q.  After you arrived at Celebici, did you see Slobodan

    24          Babic again?

    25      A.  Afterwards, after I arrived, maybe two or three hours

Page 6268

     1          later, I do not know exactly, they brought in my brother

     2          Branko, Vlado, Milenko and Boza Tomic and Novica and

     3          Slobodan Babic.  They took Slobodan Babic out -- they

     4          were carrying him because he could not stand on his feet

     5          and they threw him into number 22.

     6      Q.  How long did Slobodan Babic stay there, in room 22?

     7      A.  He was there, I do not know for how many days, but not

     8          many.  I do not know whether it was a day or two,

     9          I cannot remember how many days, and then he was taken,

    10          apparently to the 3rd March hospital, which was set up a

    11          couple of days before that.  Actually it was an

    12          elementary school, 3rd March elementary school, as it

    13          was called in Konjic.  Then they brought him back again,

    14          he was completely naked.

    15      Q.  When you say they brought him back, they brought him

    16          back to Celebici?

    17      A.  To number 22 they brought him back.

    18      Q.  When they brought him back, how long did he stay in

    19          number 22?

    20      A.  Not long, I do not know how many days.  He was

    21          immobile.  He was not there for long, I do not know how

    22          many days.  Then they took him again, I think to the

    23          3rd March, but I do not really know where they took

    24          him.  I later learned that he had died there.

    25      Q.  Apart from being in room 22 at Celebici when they

Page 6269

     1          brought him back naked, did you see him in any other

     2          place in the camp?

     3      A.  I did not see him, except in number 22 in Celebici.

     4          While I was in Celebici I only saw him there in number

     5          22.

     6      Q.  When you were in Celebici were you interrogated when you

     7          first arrived?

     8      A.  Yes, I was interrogated, but before that I was beaten by

     9          this Smajic Duda that I have already mentioned and some

    10          others that I do not know.

    11      Q.  When you were interrogated, who interrogated you?

    12      A.  First interrogation was by Mirsad Subasic from the

    13          village of Idbar.

    14      Q.  Had you known him before the war?

    15      A.  Yes.

    16      Q.  Did you know what his occupation was before the war?

    17      A.  I think that he worked something to do with the army, he

    18          was attached to the department for the military.

    19          I think he went to some sort of school of that kind, but

    20          where he worked exactly I do not know because I did not

    21          know him very well.  I knew him by sight.

    22      Q.  When he was interrogating you, what were the sort of

    23          questions that he was asking you?

    24      A.  He asked me how I had got there, whether I knew whether

    25          there were any other able bodied men in my village of

Page 6270

     1          Bjelovcina, and where they were.

     2      Q.  Were you beaten during the course of this interrogation?

     3      A.  Mirsad Subasic treated me correctly.  He did not beat

     4          me, nor did anyone else beat me while he was

     5          interrogating me, but later when they took me back the

     6          guards hit me.

     7      Q.  Do you recognise any of the guards that hit you?

     8      A.  I think they were the military police, because they had

     9          white belts, but I know that there were two of them.

    10          I think one was from Dzajici and some were from Idbar.

    11      Q.  What were you beaten with?

    12      A.  They beat me with fists, with their legs, with

    13          truncheons, and rifle butts.

    14      Q.  How long were you in room 22?

    15      A.  In hangar 22 I think I stayed for about 15 days.  I do

    16          not know exactly, but around 15 days.  Then I was

    17          transferred to hangar number 6.

    18      Q.  During the time that you were in room 22, can you

    19          estimate approximately how many people were there, how

    20          many prisoners were being kept there when the maximum

    21          number of prisoners were in room 22?

    22      A.  At one point I think there were about 100 of us, maybe

    23          even more.  There was not room to sit down, we were all

    24          standing, we could hardly all stand.

    25      Q.  When you were in room 22 did you on any occasion go to

Page 6271

     1          any part of the camp?

     2      A.  When they started bringing in people in large groups,

     3          the population from Bradina, men who were put up in

     4          number 6, in the hangar number 6, one day I was carrying

     5          some bread there to that hangar, because I was appointed

     6          to do that by the guards.

     7      MR. NIEMANN:  I will ask you what you saw when you went there

     8          when we return.  Is this a convenient time,

     9          your Honours?

    10      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Yes, I think so.  We can stop here for

    11          lunch and come back at 2.30.

    12      (1.00 pm)

    13                         (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)













Page 6272

     1      (2.30 pm)

     2      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Remind the witness he is still on his

     3          oath.

     4      THE REGISTRAR:  Sir, may I remind you you are still on your

     5          oath.

     6      A.  Yes.

     7      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Mr. Niemann, you may proceed.

     8      MR. NIEMANN:  As your Honour pleases.  Mr. Vukalo, when you

     9          were in room 22, you said on one occasion you went over

    10          to hangar number 6 to take some bread over.  What did

    11          you see when you went over to hangar 6 on this occasion?

    12      A.  Let me just say that I did not enter the hangar, I was

    13          in front of the hangar and the door was open and I could

    14          see the part that one could see with the door open.

    15      Q.  What did you see in there, from that point?

    16      A.  I could see people beaten up, some were bandaged.

    17          Practically all of the people I saw were beaten up.

    18      Q.  You said that you were first interrogated by a person by

    19          the name of Subasic.  Were you then later interrogated

    20          by somebody else when you were in the Celebici camp?

    21      A.  In Celebici, while I stayed there, there were many

    22          interrogations.  I was interrogated by Miro Stenek, and

    23          there was another one whose name I cannot remember.

    24          I think he worked in the court in Konjic, and I think

    25          that he was a Croat.

Page 6273

     1      Q.  Were you beaten or mistreated in any way during the

     2          course of those interrogations?

     3      A.  There were many interrogations, as I said, and at some

     4          of those we would also get beaten and when we were

     5          interrogated by Miro Stenek we were not beaten when we

     6          were being actually interrogated, but we were beaten

     7          before and after the interrogation.

     8      Q.  Were you ever interrogated by personnel who worked in

     9          the camp, as opposed to interrogators that came in from

    10          outside?

    11      A.  We were interrogated by the guards.  I was also

    12          interrogated by Hazim Delic.

    13      Q.  When were you interrogated by Hazim Delic?

    14      A.  I do not recall the date exactly.  Once I was called

    15          out, to get outside.  I was in hangar number 6 then, and

    16          he interrogated me outside the hangar and I was beaten.

    17      Q.  Who beat you during this interrogation?

    18      A.  Hazim Delic did, and Esad Landzo, called Zenga.

    19      Q.  With what were you beaten?

    20      A.  Hazim hit me with his favourite thing which he almost

    21          always had with him; that is a baseball bat.

    22      Q.  Can you recall now what part of the body you were hit

    23          on?

    24      A.  Under the arms, the part of my body where the ribs are,

    25          on the ribs.

Page 6274

     1      Q.  Did Hazim Delic ask you any questions during the course

     2          of this interview?

     3      A.  Yes, he did.  He asked me about a certain sniper.

     4      Q.  What did you say to him?

     5      A.  I had no idea what to reply to him.  I did not know what

     6          he was talking about.  I said there was no sniper, there

     7          was not anything of the kind.

     8      Q.  Did he say anything else to you during the interview?

     9      A.  He mostly hit me then.

    10      Q.  Had you known Hazim Delic before you went to Celebici

    11          camp?

    12      A.  No, I had not, not in person, but I had seen him around

    13          town, the town of Konjic, and later I knew that it was

    14          him, the person I had seen before.

    15      Q.  Did you know where he came from, what village or town he

    16          came from?

    17      A.  You mean where he was born?

    18      Q.  Yes.

    19      A.  He was born in the village of Orahovica near Konjic.

    20      Q.  Do you know what position he occupied when he was in the

    21          camp?

    22      A.  While he was in the camp he was the deputy commander of

    23          the camp and later he was the commander himself.

    24      Q.  During the time you were in Celebici, did you see him in

    25          the camp very often or not often?  Are you able to give

Page 6275

     1          us some idea?

     2      A.  I saw him quite often while I was in Celebici.  He would

     3          enter as many as three times a day and for a while he

     4          also spent the nights there.  He slept in the command

     5          building where they had their quarters.  He came

     6          frequently.

     7      Q.  Do you think you would recognise him again if you saw

     8          him?

     9      A.  Of course.

    10      Q.  I think you said that participating in the interview or

    11          the interrogation that you were subjected to was

    12          Mr. Landzo; is that right?

    13      A.  Landzo also interrogated us on his own with the guards,

    14          and he also took part in that particular interrogation

    15          when I was being interrogated by Delic.

    16      Q.  Did you know Landzo by a nickname?

    17      A.  Already then when I was interrogated by Delic, I knew

    18          it.

    19      Q.  What was it?

    20      A.  Zenga.

    21      Q.  Had you seen Landzo before the war?

    22      A.  No, I did not know him before Celebici.

    23      Q.  Did you see him in -- how often did you see him in

    24          Celebici camp?  Was it occasionally, often, rarely?

    25      A.  Initially Zenga was not a guard at Celebici, but he was

Page 6276

     1          there, he was in the Celebici camp.  Later he was also a

     2          guard.  He spent a lot of his time in the camp.

     3      Q.  Do you think that you would recognise him again if you

     4          saw him?

     5      A.  Of course.

     6      Q.  Apart from those people that you have mentioned being

     7          camp personnel, was there anyone else in the camp that

     8          you knew or came to know in terms of the people in

     9          authority in the camp?

    10      A.  I heard, but I did not see, that Zejnil Delalic used to

    11          come.

    12      Q.  Anyone else in the camp that you knew or saw?  I am

    13          speaking mainly of people that you saw when you were

    14          there who were in positions of authority?

    15      A.  There were the guards, I cannot say what positions

    16          people held.

    17      Q.  Are you able to give the names of any of the guards?

    18      A.  Something which is etched in my memory, and it is an

    19          unpleasant memory, regrettably, in addition to Zenga,

    20          Osman Dedic, Salko, I believe that he was from the town

    21          of Konjic, and I do not remember his surname.

    22      Q.  You have given the name of the deputy commander,

    23          Mr. Delic.  Do you know who the camp commander was when

    24          you were there?

    25      A.  Yes, certainly.  The commander of the camp, the

Page 6277

     1          administrator there was Mucic, Zdravko Mucic, called

     2          Pavo.

     3      Q.  Pavo was his nickname, was it?

     4      A.  Yes, that was his nickname.

     5      Q.  Do you know where he came from, what village or town he

     6          came from?

     7      A.  Pavo, and I will call him by his nickname, if that is

     8          all right, was from Konjic.  I do not know his exact

     9          address.  I believe it was Polje Bijela.

    10      Q.  Do you know whether he worked in Konjic or whether he

    11          worked somewhere else, before the war?

    12      A.  Before I started working at the factory at Igman, he

    13          also worked at that same factory.  Then he left for

    14          Vienna, I believe.

    15      Q.  Did you see him in the camp occasionally, rarely or

    16          often?

    17      A.  I saw him from time to time.

    18      Q.  When you saw him in the camp, how was he dressed?

    19      A.  He wore a uniform.

    20      Q.  Do you think that you might recognise him again if you

    21          saw him?

    22      A.  Yes, I certainly could.

    23      Q.  When you were in the camp did you see there a person who

    24          was being detained as a prisoner called Pero Mrkajic?

    25      A.  Yes, when I came to number 6 from number 22, namely

Page 6278

     1          after we were transferred from 22 to number 6, I saw

     2          Pero Mrkajic in a pitiful state, all beaten up, lying on

     3          some boxes.

     4      Q.  Had you known him before the war, that is Pero Mrkajic?

     5      A.  Yes, I had.

     6      Q.  When you saw him lying on these boxes, do you know

     7          approximately how long he was kept on the boxes or how

     8          long he was lying on the boxes for?

     9      A.  I could not say, but not for long.

    10      Q.  Did there come a time when he was taken from there?

    11      A.  Yes, there did.  He was taken to number 22, where there

    12          had been established a ward, where I had been before

    13          myself.

    14      Q.  So the use of room 22 had been changed to a medical type

    15          place, had it?

    16      A.  Yes, so they told us.

    17      Q.  Did you ever see Pero Mrkajic again after he had been

    18          taken to this ward, that is room 22?

    19      A.  No, later, after I do not remember how much time, we

    20          found out that he had died; he had succumbed to his

    21          injuries.

    22      Q.  When you were in the camp did you come to know a person

    23          by the name of Kuljanin with the nickname Corba?

    24      A.  Yes, I saw him in number 6 in the hangar number 6 when

    25          we from number 22 came there.

Page 6279

     1      Q.  Did you ever see anything happen to him during the

     2          period of time that he was in the camp that comes to

     3          mind?

     4      A.  During the Bairam holiday in 1992, he was taken out, his

     5          name was called out, he was taken out of the hangar.  He

     6          was then beaten.

     7      Q.  Did you see this beating?

     8      A.  No, I could hear him screaming.

     9      Q.  Do you know who took him out?

    10      A.  Esad Landzo took him out.  Then he came inside the

    11          hangar and after a short while, I do not remember

    12          exactly how long, he called out his name.

    13      Q.  When you say "he called out his name", who called out

    14          his name?

    15      A.  Esad Landzo did.  Then a rifle shot could be heard and

    16          later we heard that he was killed, executed.

    17      Q.  But you did not see this?

    18      A.  No, I did not see it with my own eyes, but some of the

    19          camp inmates had seen it.

    20      Q.  This person Kuljanin, about what age was he?

    21      A.  I do not know exactly, perhaps he was several years my

    22          senior.

    23      Q.  If you could just assist us by saying whether it was 30s

    24          or 40s or 50s?  You do not need to be precise.

    25      A.  30 years, perhaps of age.

Page 6280

     1      Q.  Do you know what his ethnic group was?

     2      A.  He was a Serb from the village of Bradina.

     3      Q.  When you were in the camp, did you also see there a

     4          person that you knew called Scepo Gotovac?

     5      A.  Scepo Gotovac came from my village.  Of course I knew

     6          him.  He was brought to number 6.  I do not remember the

     7          date, I believe that it was on the orders of Hazim

     8          Delic, because when he was brought there and placed in

     9          number 6, the hangar, Hazim Delic slapped his face and

    10          told him that he would take his revenge upon him.

    11      Q.  Did you hear this?

    12      A.  Yes, all of us heard it.

    13      Q.  Did you see it?

    14      A.  It was by the door.  Yes, of course I did see it.  It

    15          was inside, in the hangar.

    16      Q.  What happened then?

    17      A.  He was taken out.

    18      Q.  Who took him out?

    19      A.  Zenga called out his name, then we heard a scream.  We

    20          heard him screaming for 30 or 45 minutes.  Then they put

    21          him back in the hangar and several hours later his name

    22          was called out again.

    23      Q.  Who called his name out again?

    24      A.  Zenga did.  He was holding something in his hand.

    25      Q.  Who was holding something in his hand?

Page 6281

     1      A.  Zenga was.  He sort of stuck it into his neck and he

     2          pushed Scepo Gotovac outside.  Then we heard a scream

     3          again, then Zenga came inside after perhaps half an hour

     4          or 40 minutes, and he ordered two of the detainees --

     5      Q.  Who ordered two of the detainees?

     6      A.  Zenga did -- to bring him, Scepo Gotovac inside.  While

     7          he was outside for the second time, while he was being

     8          beaten outside for the second time, for a time we could

     9          hear him moaning and screaming, and at a certain point

    10          it stopped.  We could no longer hear him screaming.  Of

    11          the detainees, Novica went out and his brother Toso

    12          Brdzani and they brought Scepo Gotovac half dead

    13          inside.  In the morning I saw that he was dead.

    14      Q.  How do you know he was dead?

    15      A.  We went out to go to the toilet and I saw him, he was

    16          not far.

    17      Q.  Are you able to estimate his age, Scepo Gotovac?

    18      A.  He was an elderly man, perhaps he was born in 1929 or

    19          so, I am not sure.  1929 is his year of birth.

    20      Q.  Do you know what his ethnic background was?

    21      A.  He was a Serb.

    22      Q.  While you were in the camp did you come to know a person

    23          by the name of Bosko Samoukovic?

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  Where was this man in the camp in relation to you?

Page 6282

     1      A.  He sat in the direction of the door, next to the wall of

     2          the hangar.

     3      Q.  This was hangar number 6, was it?

     4      A.  Yes, hangar number 6.

     5      Q.  While he was in the camp did you see anything happen to

     6          him?

     7      A.  Yes.  He was beaten, both inside and outside the

     8          hangar.  Zenga hit him with his rifle butt.  He kicked

     9          him and he hit him with a stick.

    10      Q.  Were you able to see this yourself?

    11      A.  Inside we were able to see it and, of course, outside

    12          I could not see it.  After that he was transferred to

    13          the so-called infirmary at number 22, and after some

    14          time, I do not know how much time elapsed, I cannot

    15          remember that, since he had two sons there, Nedeljko and

    16          Milan, they were informed that he had died, that he had

    17          succumbed.

    18      Q.  Did you see him again after you had been taken away to

    19          room 22 yourself?

    20      A.  No, I did not.

    21      Q.  Are you able to tell us approximately what age group he

    22          was?

    23      A.  Maybe in his 50s, between 50 and 60.

    24      Q.  And his ethnic group?

    25      A.  Serb, from the village of Bradina.

Page 6283

     1      Q.  Do you know approximately what time during the period of

     2          time you were in the Celebici camp that this happened?

     3      A.  It was before we were registered by the International

     4          Red Cross.  I think this was sometime in June or the

     5          beginning of July.  I do not know exactly.

     6      Q.  Again, while you were in the camp, did you come to know

     7          a person that had a nickname, Keljo?

     8      A.  Yes.

     9      Q.  Had you known him before the war or known of him?

    10      A.  I did not know him before the war, but I knew that he

    11          had a cafe in town but I did not know him before the

    12          camp.

    13      Q.  Did you come to know him in the camp?

    14      A.  Yes, I saw him in the camp.

    15      Q.  Where did you see him?

    16      A.  He was brought in later, after I had got to hangar

    17          number 6.

    18      Q.  Was he brought to hangar number 6?

    19      A.  Yes, to number 6, that is where I met him.

    20      Q.  How long was he in the camp for?

    21      A.  I cannot say exactly how long it was, maybe a month or

    22          two, I really do not know.

    23      Q.  Did something happen to him?

    24      A.  Yes.  One evening, a friend of his came, a Muslim.  He

    25          brought him some cigarettes.  We could hear, all of us

Page 6284

     1          in the hangar, at least those who were closer to him,

     2          Hazim Delic said to this friend of him, Keljo's friend,

     3          I mean, "why are you giving him that?  He will not see

     4          the day tomorrow", and he did not, in fact.  In the

     5          early morning, he was called out --

     6      Q.  Who called him out?

     7      A.  I really could not say.  One of the guards.

     8      Q.  What happened when he was taken out?

     9      A.  He was shot.

    10      Q.  Did you hear this?

    11      A.  Some of the detainees were outside at the time, they

    12          were cleaning up.  He was killed by Padalovic, as I was

    13          informed later, or rather as we in the hangar heard

    14          later.

    15      Q.  After he had been shot did you have to do anything in

    16          relation to him?

    17      A.  Yes.  After maybe an hour I was called out by Esad

    18          Landzo, known as Zenga, and he took me behind the hangar

    19          holding in his hand a grenade.  He said to me that I had

    20          to remove the ring from Keljo's hand.  How come he had

    21          that ring, I do not know myself.  I was terrified, and

    22          he said that if I did not do it he would kill me with

    23          this grenade.  I approached the body.  I really do not

    24          know now how I managed to take off that ring.  In that

    25          fear I somehow did, but before that I was having a hard

Page 6285

     1          time doing it and he said if I did not succeed I would

     2          have to cut off his finger.  I gave him that ring as

     3          I did manage to take it off, and he said to me that

     4          I must not tell anyone because he would kill me.

     5      Q.  When you were taking the ring off Keljo's finger did he

     6          appear to you to be dead or alive?

     7      A.  Dead.

     8      Q.  Again while you were in the camp did you see there a

     9          person that you knew by the name of Zeljko Cecez?

    10      A.  I knew Zeljko before I came to the camp.  He was from

    11          Donje Selo.

    12      Q.  Did he have a nickname?

    13      A.  Yes.  Before the war, his nickname was Spanac, or "the

    14          Spaniard".  That is how his neighbours called him, in

    15          the 1980s and in the 1970s.  How he came to the

    16          nicknamed thus I do not know.

    17      Q.  Can you tell us what approximate age he was or what age

    18          group?

    19      A.  Zeljko may have been about 28.  I think he was born in

    20          1961 or 1962.

    21      Q.  Do you know what his ethnic background was?

    22      A.  A Serb.

    23      Q.  Where was he located in the camp while you were there,

    24          in what place?

    25      A.  He sat behind my back in number 6, the row behind my

Page 6286

     1          back.

     2      Q.  During the time that you were in the Celebici camp in

     3          hangar number 6, did you see something happen to Zeljko?

     4      A.  Yes.  Also during that holiday, ^ Kurban Bairam, the

     5          first or second night, I think it was the second or the

     6          first, I am not sure.  He was called out by Zenga.  One

     7          could hear moans outside, this was in the evening.  The

     8          cries could be heard, I do not know for how long.  Then

     9          the doors of the hangar opened and he fell inside like a

    10          sack.  Zenga was still hitting him.

    11      Q.  What was he hitting him with?

    12      A.  He was kicking him, and I do not know exactly, I think

    13          he had a plank.  He was crawling, he was going on all

    14          fours to reach his position.  However, his strength

    15          caved in and he fell.  We did not dare move any one of

    16          us to help him reach his place.  When Zenga went out and

    17          when the door was closed behind him, I do not know

    18          exactly who it was who got up and dragged him to his

    19          place.  In the morning, he was dead.  He was lying there

    20          dead.

    21      Q.  Did you see him in the morning, see his body in the

    22          morning?

    23      A.  Yes.

    24      Q.  What was it about what you saw of his body that made you

    25          think he was dead?

Page 6287

     1      A.  The people who were sitting right next to him on his

     2          left and his right gave us the sign that it was all over

     3          for him, that he had died and one could see by his face,

     4          though it was all beaten up, it was yellow.

     5      Q.  Again while in the camp, did you come to know a person

     6          with the name Milosevic?

     7      A.  Milosevic is someone I did not know before the camp.

     8          I only know that he came from the village of Dzepi and

     9          I learned that in the camp.  That is where I met him.

    10      Q.  Did you ever see anything or hear anything happening to

    11          him?

    12      A.  As far as I know Milosevic was beaten very badly, both

    13          inside and out.  He was beaten by Delic also, and he

    14          died from the beatings, but I cannot describe that in

    15          any detail.

    16      Q.  Again during the period of time that you were in hangar

    17          number 6, do you recall an incident where some prisoners

    18          were playing cards?

    19      A.  Yes.

    20      Q.  When did this incident happen, approximately?

    21      A.  I cannot say exactly, but I think it was towards the end

    22          of August or perhaps in September.

    23      Q.  Some detainees had made some cardboard cards so as to

    24          while away the time somehow.  However, no one asked the

    25          deputy commander of the camp, Delic, but one of the

Page 6288

     1          guards saw this and informed Delic.  Delic came shortly

     2          after that and he beat us up en masse.

     3      A.  When you say "beat us up", just the people playing cards

     4          or other people as well?

     5      A.  Those who were playing and those who had made them.

     6      Q.  Were you in this group?

     7      A.  Yes, because I was playing.

     8      Q.  How long did this beating go on for?

     9      A.  Maybe an hour.

    10      Q.  Was it only Delic that beat you, Hazim Delic, or was

    11          there somebody else there beating?

    12      A.  There were other guards too, but mostly Hazim was the

    13          one who hit us.

    14      Q.  Did he say anything to you while he was beating you?

    15      A.  No, he just said "turn around to face the wall of the

    16          hangar" and then he would beat us, and then he would go

    17          on to the next one.

    18      Q.  Do you recall what it was that you were being beaten

    19          with?

    20      A.  On that occasion when we had been playing those cards

    21          which we had made, he hit us with a spade, so that we

    22          had to spread our legs apart and our arms apart, and

    23          stand there facing the wall of the hangar.

    24      Q.  On what part of your body were you hit, can you

    25          remember?

Page 6289

     1      A.  From our knees upwards, on our thighs.

     2      Q.  Did you ever see an incident when you were in hangar

     3          number 6 where people were burnt with hot knives?

     4      A.  Yes.

     5      Q.  Where were you when you saw this happen?

     6      A.  I saw (redacted) when he was first called out, and

     7          then after some time he was brought back in.  He had a

     8          terrible expression on his face.  One could see that he

     9          was in terrible pain and he showed us his hands, and one

    10          could see the markings of a knife.  The skin was all

    11          burnt, and then he told us both he and the other people

    12          who were taken out on that occasion, that Zenga had

    13          heated a knife until it was red hot, and then they had

    14          to hold it in their hands, and this, of course, would

    15          burn their skin on their palms.  This was on their

    16          palms.

    17      Q.  You mentioned one occasion when a group of prisoners

    18          were beaten when playing cards.  Were there other

    19          occasions when a whole group of people were beaten?

    20      A.  Yes.  There were several such massive beatings, beatings

    21          of large groups, and there were occasions when each and

    22          every detainee was beaten.  We called these "massive

    23          beatings".

    24      Q.  Where did these take place?

    25      A.  In number 6.

Page 6290

     1      Q.  Who participated in these beatings?  Who was the one

     2          that was carrying out the beatings?  Can you name some

     3          of them?

     4      A.  I remember when the International Red Cross had

     5          registered us and some of the detainees tried to tell

     6          them of the situation we were in.  However, afterwards,

     7          while the International Red Cross had still not even

     8          left, certainly they had not left Celebici, I do not

     9          know whether they had left the camp itself, Delic walked

    10          in with about 12 or 13 guards.  He ordered us all to put

    11          our hands behind our heads and then they went round

    12          kicking us in the ribs.

    13      Q.  Apart from kicking you in the ribs did they hit you with

    14          anything?

    15      A.  Now and then one of them would hit us with a rifle

    16          butt.  I also remember another such mass beating when

    17          some Muslim soldiers fell into an ambush made by their

    18          own people between Bradina and Repovci, so they all got

    19          killed in that ambush.  Delic together with some other

    20          guards beat us, virtually all the detainees, and

    21          especially those from the village of Bradina.  He beat

    22          us with his fists, with his boots.  Sometimes he would

    23          give us a karate blow.  This was the case with Ranko

    24          Gligorevic, known as Buco.

    25      Q.  Do you recall an incident were you were burnt with a

Page 6291

     1          fuse?

     2      A.  Yes, I do.

     3      Q.  Can you tell us when that happened?

     4      A.  I cannot recall exactly the date when this happened.

     5          Zenga, on that day, had done this to someone else before

     6          me.  He tied the slow burning fuse, we call it the cord,

     7          round the naked bodies of detainees.

     8      Q.  Did you see this happen yourself, did you see this

     9          happen to these other men?

    10      A.  It was done to me, too.

    11      Q.  I am asking you, did you see it happen to the other men

    12          ahead of you?

    13      A.  Yes, it was inside, in the hangar.  I was called out

    14          also by name.  I was told to get up.  He tied this fuse

    15          between my legs, on my naked skin, and I had to take off

    16          my pants and my sweat suit that I had on, up to my

    17          knees.  One end was inside, and then on top of that

    18          I would put on my pants and my jogging suit and the

    19          other end was free, outside.  He would tie my hands

    20          behind my back, and then he would set light to it.

    21      Q.  When you say you had to strip down, did you have to

    22          strip down to your naked body?

    23      A.  From my waist to my knees I was naked.

    24      Q.  Was the fuse wrapped around your body or just -- perhaps

    25          you could describe.  Where was the fuse wrapped?

Page 6292

     1      A.  The fuse was wrapped between my legs and then one end

     2          would stay in my pants, in my particular case it was

     3          right next to the body below my underwear and the other

     4          end was outside, free.

     5      Q.  Once the fuse had been put next to your naked skin, did

     6          you then have to pull up your underwear?

     7      A.  Yes, and then he would tie my hands behind my back.

     8      Q.  Is this what you saw happen to the other prisoners?

     9      A.  Yes, before me it was done to Vukasin Mrkajic, I think

    10          Veseljko Djordjic or his brother and some others.

    11      Q.  What happened to them that you could see before

    12          something happened to you?

    13      A.  When he did all this, when he wrapped the fuse like this

    14          and when they put on their pants and underwear and tie

    15          their hands behind their back and set light to it, then

    16          people were in great pain.  They were almost jumping

    17          around half a metre high, making leaps into the air from

    18          the pain when the fuse started burning right next to the

    19          skin.  They would roll over on the concrete floor until

    20          somehow they would manage to put it out with their own

    21          body.  They would extinguish it rolling around like

    22          that.

    23      Q.  Was Zenga on his own when he was doing this or was he

    24          with other guards?

    25      A.  Osman Dedic was with him most times.

Page 6293

     1      Q.  Would he say anything or do anything while this was

     2          happening?

     3      A.  He would laugh, he would laugh.  To him, it seemed very

     4          funny.

     5      Q.  What happened to you?

     6      A.  Then he called me by name and told me to get up.  He

     7          ordered me to take off my sweat suit up to my knees and

     8          my underwear, then he also tied this fuse round my body

     9          and ordered me to put back on my underwear and my sweat

    10          suit, to put my hands behind my back.  The end of the

    11          fuse, which was uncovered, it was about 10 centimetres

    12          long, this uncovered end, and when he set light to it,

    13          because I had seen this happen to others before me,

    14          I saw that the best thing to do was to lie down as soon

    15          as possible and roll around to put the fire out, and

    16          I managed, before it reached my skin, to extinguish the

    17          fuse, but he did not like that.

    18      Q.  When you say "he did not like it", who did not like it?

    19      A.  Zenga.  He hit me with his rifle, with the butt of his

    20          rifle.  He sent me back to my place.

    21      Q.  Was there another incident when a bullet was shown to

    22          you?

    23      A.  Yes, there was.

    24      Q.  When did that happen?

    25      A.  I cannot precisely recall the exact time, the date.

Page 6294

     1          There were many beatings, very many unpleasant incidents

     2          and situations, but I think that it was some time around

     3          August, in August.

     4      Q.  Can you describe this incident for us, please?

     5      A.  Yes.  He called me out --

     6      Q.  Who called you out?

     7      A.  Zenga did.  He told me to go out and he himself was out,

     8          outside.

     9      Q.  When you say "out", that is outside the hangar, is it?

    10      A.  Yes.  What I am about to describe, he did, before he did

    11          it to me, to Vukasin Mrkajic, Bosko Samoukovic, (redacted)

    12          (redacted), as well as to some others, and when Vukasin

    13          Mrkajic was the object of this and he did the same thing

    14          as I am about to tell you he did to me, when he was

    15          doing that to him, what he was to do to me later, he

    16          told Vukasin Mrkajic to call me out.

    17      Q.  But you did not see what happened to the other men?

    18      A.  No, I later heard.

    19      Q.  Just tell us what happened to you.

    20      A.  Yes.  I went out, I walked up to him, to a distance of

    21          some five metres from him.

    22      Q.  This is as you walked up to Zenga?

    23      A.  Yes, I mean Zenga.  He told me to kneel.  He ordered me

    24          to kneel, and I did.  He showed me this bullet.  He

    25          asked me, "what is this?", and I said, "it is a

Page 6295

     1          bullet".  Then he showed me his rifle and he asked me

     2          what that was, and I said "rifle".  I saw with my own

     3          eyes him put a bullet into the rifle barrel and cock.

     4          He told me to open my mouth wide.  He approached me.

     5          I opened my mouth wide.  I thought that my pain would be

     6          over and that would be the end.  He shot.  I did not

     7          know whether I was dead or alive.  I could only feel

     8          some sort of a fire burning inside my mouth.  It took me

     9          a minute to come to and to realise, to see whether I was

    10          alive at all.  He was laughing and then he sent me back

    11          to the hangar.

    12      Q.  What do you think actually happened?

    13      A.  Later we found out from the other guards there that he

    14          actually took out the powder, somehow had emptied the

    15          powder, the charge from the bullet, so that actually the

    16          bullet could not be activated when it was being shot.

    17          It would just burn you inside, singe the inside of your

    18          mouth.

    19      Q.  Do you recall another incident that happened in the

    20          canal where the prisoners used to urinate?

    21      A.  Yes, this appeared, as I mentioned before that they were

    22          ambushed by their own Muslim soldiers, so they fell into

    23          this ambush which had been staged by their own people.

    24      Q.  You do not need to repeat that.  Just tell us the

    25          incident, if you would.

Page 6296

     1      A.  Yes.  In the morning as we were going out to urinate, we

     2          would go in groups of about 20.

     3      Q.  Was this the sort of standard procedure, to go out each

     4          morning to urinate?

     5      A.  Yes, at the time it was.

     6      Q.  Where would you urinate?

     7      A.  Just to the left-hand side of the door, there was this

     8          sort of a ditch, canal, which was some 10 or 15 metres

     9          away from hangar number 6.

    10      Q.  On this particular occasion what happened?

    11      A.  Before the door was opened we heard some sort of a

    12          racket in front of the hangar, and as soon as the door

    13          was opened Zenga started hitting some people and was

    14          telling them to approach him, and I later heard that

    15          after this first group had -- that is what I heard after

    16          this first group had returned from the urination.  We

    17          were scared, we did not know what was going on.  We did

    18          not know what was happening.

    19                So when this group, in which I also was, this

    20          group of 10 people went out to urinate, Zenga called me,

    21          told me to come to him, and I walked up to him and he

    22          hit me two or three times, and at a point which was some

    23          2 metres from the last man on the right side in the

    24          line of men who were urinating, he ordered me to drink

    25          urine.

Page 6297

     1      Q.  From where were you to drink this urine?

     2      A.  From the canal into which the others were urinating at

     3          the same time.

     4      Q.  The men were urinating at that time?

     5      A.  Yes, this group with which I had gone out to urinate,

     6          and he also pressed my head and he pushed my head down.

     7          He hit me very strongly with his rifle butt on the back,

     8          and he pushed my head down into the canal so that the

     9          urine was in my mouth and I actually drank it.  He held

    10          me in that position until I could no longer endure it.

    11      Q.  Were you lying down with your head in the canal or were

    12          you kneeling down?

    13      A.  I was kneeling.

    14      Q.  How was he holding your head down into the canal?

    15      A.  He actually pressed the back of my head, the rifle butt

    16          against the back of my head.

    17      Q.  Did the urine cover your face?

    18      A.  Yes, my head was immersed in the urine; my head, my

    19          face, my mouth, my nose.

    20      Q.  Did you actually take the urine into your body?

    21      A.  Yes, I did.

    22      Q.  Do you recall another incident when prisoners were

    23          forced to eat grass?

    24      A.  Yes, I do.

    25      Q.  Can you describe what happened on that occasion?

Page 6298

     1      A.  I will describe what happened to me.

     2      Q.  Yes.

     3      A.  Zenga called me out.  There were some other guards

     4          there, I believe that Zeba Cosic from the Muslim village

     5          of Idbar was also there.  There they started to hit me

     6          and they ordered me to eat grass, to pluck the grass, so

     7          I grazed and I swallowed.  I was subjected to the same

     8          treatment later by this guard from Idbar several times,

     9          on several occasions and Zenga did not force me to graze

    10          again.

    11      Q.  So what you are saying is, it was only one occasion when

    12          Zenga forced you to eat the grass?

    13      A.  Yes.

    14      Q.  Do you recall an incident seeing something happen when a

    15          prisoner was forced to drink large quantities of

    16          alcohol?

    17      A.  Yes, I do.  This was Vukasin Mrkajic.  We would be taken

    18          out and this was done by Hazim Delic.  He would order us

    19          out in front of hangar number 6, and we had to sit on

    20          the concrete in rows.  We would have to strip naked to

    21          the waist, and then on one occasion after having taken

    22          us out and ordered us to sit thus, he brought for

    23          Vukasin Mrkajic a bottle, a cognac bottle, and told him

    24          to gulp it down over a very short period.

    25      Q.  Who told him to do this?

Page 6299

     1      A.  Delic did.  Then Vukasin Mrkajic had to.  Then he had to

     2          imitate the driving of a car, a car riding in terms of

     3          sounds that a car made and also to present the picture

     4          of a car being driven around.  The guards and Delic

     5          found this very amusing and funny and they laughed.

     6      Q.  While you were in the camp did you know of two brothers

     7          who were prisoners there by the name Dordic?

     8      A.  Yes, I did, in the camp.  I had not known them before

     9          I came to the camp.

    10      Q.  Where were they in the camp so that you came to know

    11          them?

    12      A.  They were brought later.  They were brought later than

    13          the day to when I was brought to hangar number 6.

    14          I believe they were brought when this incident took

    15          place, the one involving Muslim soldiers who were

    16          ambushed by their own people and who were killed on that

    17          occasion.  I believe it was on that day, but I am not

    18          quite sure.  They were brought and they were put on the

    19          right side from the door, inside, in the camp --

    20      Q.  In the same hangar as you?

    21      A.  Yes, in 6, in number 6.

    22      Q.  Did you see something happen to these people, these two

    23          men?

    24      A.  I did.  I saw them being hit frequently, hit hard.  On

    25          one occasion, Zenga ordered one of the two -- actually

Page 6300

     1          forced one of the two to perform oral sex, fellatio.  He

     2          ordered one of them to strip bare, down to his knees,

     3          and the other one had to hold his genitals in the mouth

     4          to perform fellatio.

     5      Q.  Were you able to see this from where you were?

     6      A.  Of course.

     7      Q.  Did he actually take the other man's genitals into his

     8          mouth from what you could see?

     9      A.  One of the brothers had to put the other brother's

    10          member in his mouth, because Zenga threatened that he

    11          would kill them both unless he did it.

    12      Q.  Had Zenga beaten them prior to forcing them to do this?

    13      A.  Yes, of course, very much so.

    14      Q.  Apart from Zenga, were any of the other guards there at

    15          the time?

    16      A.  Osman Dedic, of those that were inside.  I do not know

    17          who was outside.  They laughed at the scene and we could

    18          hear voices coming from outside as well, from in front

    19          of the door.  We could hear laughter actually.

    20      Q.  Apart from these incidents, were prisoners ever forced

    21          to sing songs or say prayers?  Did incidents like that

    22          occur?

    23      A.  I did not sing, but I heard from the detainees that some

    24          did sing.  On one occasion Delic took us out in front of

    25          number 6 and ordered us to sit down on the concrete.

Page 6301

     1          From the town of Konjic then came a wealthy man by the

     2          name of Smajic, whose nickname was Kurecen, and Delic

     3          ordered us to utter, to say "Allah U Akbar".  He would

     4          ask, he would say, Delic, "who is the greatest?" We

     5          would say "Allah" once, and the other time Kurecen.

     6      Q.  How long did this go on for?

     7      A.  This went on for some 20 minutes or half an hour,

     8          perhaps.

     9      Q.  Did it only happen on the one occasion, so far as you

    10          are concerned, or did it happen more than once?

    11      A.  It only happened once, at least as far as I myself am

    12          concerned.

    13      Q.  Do you recall an occasion when the International

    14          Committee of the Red Cross visited the Celebici camp?

    15      A.  Yes, I do.

    16      Q.  When did they come to the camp?

    17      A.  They came, we had been registered.  We were registered

    18          on 12th August 1992.  This was the first time when they

    19          came to visit the camp in Celebici.  There was

    20          Mr. Michel, I believe he was French.  He was the head of

    21          this team that visited Celebici.

    22      Q.  Apart from registering the prisoners, did they do

    23          anything else while they were there that you could see?

    24      A.  Yes, they did.  During one visit of theirs, when they

    25          came as we were going out to urinate, Mr. Michel had a

Page 6302

     1          stopwatch in his hand and he stood by the door and he

     2          measured the time during which we were to perform it

     3          all.  I believe that the time was around two minutes per

     4          group of 20 inmates.  I know that he waved his head, but

     5          nothing changed for the better after that.

     6      Q.  Did the Red Cross come back again after the initial

     7          visits?

     8      A.  They were there then, and after they had registered us,

     9          they left -- he left.  They came later again after a

    10          certain period of time.  I do not know after how long,

    11          but two months must have elapsed.

    12      Q.  I am going to ask you, if you would, to describe for the

    13          court some of the conditions that prevailed in the camp

    14          during the period of time you were there.  Firstly, can

    15          you tell their Honours the toilet facilities that were

    16          available to the inmates in the camp during that time?

    17          You have given some description, I think, in your

    18          evidence of the place where you had to urinate, but can

    19          you give the Chamber some more details of what

    20          facilities were provided for you in relation to toilets?

    21      A.  Yes, I will describe these conditions for you.  While

    22          I was in number 22 we would go out to go to the toilet,

    23          which was outside.  This was the procedure; we had to

    24          put caps, pull down caps on our heads and then we would

    25          go to the toilet thus, and on our way to the toilet and

Page 6303

     1          on our way back they would hit us.  They gave this sort

     2          of a cap, the guards gave us a cap.  Where they got it

     3          from I do not know.

     4                Each one of us had to put this cap on his head so

     5          that they would not be recognised, that we would not be

     6          recognised when we were being beaten.  After some time,

     7          we did not use this cap any longer.  The conditions in

     8          number 6 were horrendous.  We lay in hangar number 6 on

     9          the concrete floor, and I slept on the bare concrete

    10          floor for some two or three months.  There were no baths

    11          in the beginning at all.  We were not allowed any

    12          visits.  No one could come to bring us a fresh change of

    13          underwear.

    14                For a toilet, we used some kind of a bucket which

    15          was inside the hangar, it stood by the door.

    16      Q.  Was there any privacy provided for the toilet?

    17      A.  I do not understand.

    18      Q.  Did the toilet have any sort of screen around it so you

    19          could have some privacy when you were going to the

    20          toilet?

    21      A.  No, none at all, just a metre or two from this bucket

    22          were the other inmates, the other detainees who were

    23          accommodated to the right from the door.  Also to the

    24          left from the door there were also detainees.  We used

    25          this bucket most often at night when we would be shut

Page 6304

     1          up, locked up.  In the day, we did not dare be found

     2          there by any of the guards; that is to say when the

     3          guards came in or when Delic came in.  We had to sit in

     4          our respective places.

     5                There was a foul stench and we also had our meals

     6          in that same place.  It was very dusty, filthy.  The

     7          people were infested with lice and I myself also had

     8          lice.  The conditions were appalling.

     9      Q.  Where you sat in your place, did they give you anything

    10          at all to sit on, or did you sit straight on to the

    11          concrete?

    12      A.  During the first two months I sit on the bare concrete.

    13          Later we were allowed to have a blanket each; we were

    14          allowed that our people could bring us a blanket each

    15          from our home, so I got a blanket and later I sat on it.

    16      Q.  Were you at any stage offered medical treatment while

    17          you were in the camp?

    18      A.  While I was in the camp, in number 6?

    19      Q.  Yes.

    20      A.  I was beaten many times and never was any medical

    21          assistance extended to me.

    22      Q.  What was the food and water supplied to you like?  Can

    23          you describe that?

    24      A.  The food was horrible.  For a time, we only received a

    25          loaf of bread for 17 detainees.  One loaf had to be

Page 6305

     1          shared between 17 detainees, without any vegetables.

     2          Then later we would get some cooked food, some

     3          vegetables.  We went to eat in groups of five, right

     4          there next to the door where the bucket which

     5          I described was.  That bucket would be taken out during

     6          the day.  One detainee could have four or five spoonfuls

     7          of rice, mostly it was rice, sometimes it was too salty,

     8          sometimes it was not salty enough, but the main thing is

     9          it was never sufficient.  It was not enough in terms of

    10          quantity, and we all used five spoons, and we ate in

    11          groups of five.

    12      MR. NIEMANN:  Is that a convenient time, your Honour?

    13      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Yes, Mr. Niemann.  I think we will break

    14          now and come back at 4.30.

    15      (4.00 pm)

    16                              (A short break)

    17      (4.30 pm)

    18      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

    19          You may proceed, Mr. Niemann.

    20      MR. NIEMANN:  Thank you, your Honour.  Sir, when you were in

    21          the Celebici camp, did you know a person who was also a

    22          prisoner in the camp by the name of Damir Gotovac?

    23      A.  Damir Gotovac?  Yes, I did know him before the war

    24          because he is from my village of Bjelovcina, but he

    25          lived in Celebici for a time and he was born in

Page 6306

     1          Bjelovcina.

     2      Q.  When he was in the camp, was he kept in the same hangar

     3          as yourself?

     4      A.  Yes, he was in hangar number 6.

     5      Q.  Do you recall an incident which involved both you and

     6          Damir Gotovac?

     7      A.  Yes.

     8      Q.  What happened?

     9      A.  On one occasion he was taken out, his name was called

    10          out.

    11      Q.  Who called him out, do you know?

    12      A.  Zenga.  One heard a cry, and maybe about ten minutes

    13          later one of the guards, I do not now recall which,

    14          called me out as well.  I saw Damir there, Zenga was

    15          hitting him and he fainted and fell to the ground.  Then

    16          Zenga told me to kill him, I mean to beat him to death.

    17          I said I could not do that.  Let him kill me.  Then they

    18          started hitting me, Zenga was there, and I think Osman

    19          Dedic as well.  They started hitting me and then they

    20          ordered Damir to kill me.  He refused, he said he could

    21          not do it.  Then they beat both of us.  I do not know

    22          how long this lasted.  It was not for long, maybe half a

    23          hour, and then they sent us back into the hangar.

    24      Q.  When you saw Damir when you went out there and he had

    25          been beaten, was he wearing anything that you can recall

Page 6307

     1          on his head?

     2      A.  Yes, he had a protective mask, military mask.

     3      Q.  Did that cover his face?

     4      A.  Yes, this mask was on his head.  It was a gas mask.

     5      Q.  You mentioned earlier in your evidence that you saw the

     6          camp commander, Mr. Mucic, come to the camp on a number

     7          of occasions.

     8      A.  Mr. Zdravko Mucic is somebody I did not know from before,

     9          but the first night I spent in Celebici in the camp in

    10          number 22, Pavo came with, I think, Pero Serbia, as he

    11          was called, came with him.  I learnt that later from the

    12          other detainees.  He came through the door of room 22,

    13          and he said that he was the camp commander or head of

    14          the camp.  I was standing near the door and the man who

    15          was with him was pushing us.  Pavo said that we stank,

    16          that we smelled bad.  He looked us over.  I do not

    17          remember whether he spoke to anyone, but he left soon

    18          afterwards.

    19      Q.  You have also said in your evidence that when you first

    20          arrived at the Celebici camp you were in room number 22

    21          and you then went to hangar number 6.  Did you stay in

    22          hangar number 6 for the entire period or the balance of

    23          the period that you were in Celebici, or did you go

    24          somewhere else?

    25      A.  No, from hangar number 6 when a large number of

Page 6308

     1          detainees were transferred to the sports hall in Musala,

     2          there were 32 of us left, 32 detainees, who were

     3          transferred to room 22 where I had been before.

     4      Q.  When did you ultimately leave the camp?

     5      A.  On 9th December we were transferred to the sports hall

     6          in Konjic.

     7      Q.  Did Mr. Landzo stay at the camp for the whole time that

     8          you were there, or did he leave?

     9      A.  For a period of time, I do not know exactly from which

    10          date until which date, he was not at the camp in

    11          Celebici, but this was a short period of time.

    12      Q.  Do you know anything about the circumstances of how it

    13          is that he came to leave the camp?

    14      A.  I do not know exactly, but I heard that --

    15      MS. McMURREY:  Your Honour, I am going to object as to his

    16          personal knowledge.  We do not know where he heard this

    17          from.  I know my learned colleague Mr. Niemann knows he

    18          needs to lay the proper basis.

    19      MR. NIEMANN:  I will not press it.  Just tell us what you

    20          yourself know.

    21                Was Mr. Mucic at the camp for the whole period of

    22          time you were there, that is the Celebici camp, or did

    23          he leave at some stage?

    24      A.  Zdravko Mucic, known as Pavo, would come by

    25          occasionally.  Sometimes he would not be there for as

Page 6309

     1          long as ten days.

     2      Q.  After you left Celebici camp, where were you taken then?

     3      A.  From Celebici, you mean?

     4      Q.  Yes.

     5      A.  I was taken to the sports hall at the Musala prison in

     6          Konjic, with the 32 detainees, the last remaining group

     7          of detainees.

     8      Q.  Do you know who was in charge of the Musala facility?

     9      A.  When I arrived at Musala, at that time I am not quite

    10          sure, but I think somebody called Broceta, but I do not

    11          know his first name.

    12      Q.  Did he remain the commander of that camp or facility, or

    13          did the command change?

    14      A.  During our stay at the sports hall in Konjic quite a

    15          number of the prison administrators changed.

    16      Q.  Among the prison population in Musala, I mean the people

    17          who were being detained, I should say, were any of the

    18          former guards from Celebici there being detained along

    19          with the other people?

    20      A.  Yes, they were.

    21      Q.  Can you tell us who they were?

    22      A.  A guard who was in Celebici, Kemo -- I think his name

    23          was Mrndzic, for a time he was in charge of the camp in

    24          Konjic.  In Celebici, he beat us, but in Konjic, he was

    25          a good commander.

Page 6310

     1      Q.  Anyone else that you can think of that was also being

     2          detained in Musala?

     3      A.  I do not understand.  What do you mean, detained?

     4      Q.  Imprisoned there, kept there as a prisoner.  Any of the

     5          former personnel from Celebici?

     6      A.  Yes, I understand now.  For a time Esad Landzo was

     7          imprisoned there, Hazim Delic, who had been at Celebici,

     8          and they were also prisoners in Konjic at Musala.

     9      Q.  When Hazim Delic was also being detained as a prisoner

    10          in Musala, did you have a conversation with him?

    11      A.  At that time we were upstairs in a part of the building

    12          that was known as the gym.  He could come up whenever he

    13          wanted.  He came during the daytime.  He did not talk to

    14          me but he spoke to some other detainees.

    15      Q.  Did you hear the conversation?

    16      A.  He would come in and once --

    17      Q.  I only want you to tell us if you actually heard him

    18          speak yourself.

    19      A.  On one occasion, I cannot recall exactly who he was

    20          talking to, one of the detainees, he said that the data

    21          about all the victims from Celebici, when they were

    22          born, what village they came from, even how old they

    23          were -- I can say that much, nothing more.

    24      Q.  During the period of time that you were detained in

    25          Musala camp, was there any mistreatment to the prisoners

Page 6311

     1          occurring that you could observe?

     2      A.  Yes, for a time when Edo Zilic was in charge of the

     3          camp, or the prison rather, ten of us, and I was one of

     4          them, were told to go do some labour --

     5      Q.  I will not ask you to go into details, I just wanted you

     6          to say yes or no, whether it occurred -- whether there

     7          was any mistreatment while you were in the Musala camp,

     8          but I will not ask you to give details of that.

     9      A.  There was less, but there was some.  Less, much less.

    10      MR. NIEMANN:  I have no further questions, your Honour.

    11      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  The order in which you have agreed to

    12          take the cross-examination?

    13      MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Yes, your Honour.  First counsel for

    14          Mr. Delalic, second counsel for Mr. Mucic, third counsel

    15          for Mr. Delic and fourth counsel for Mr. Landzo.

    16      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  You may proceed, Ms. Residovic.

    17                      Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC

    18      Q.  Thank you, your Honours.  Good afternoon, Mr. Vukalo.

    19      A.  Good afternoon.

    20      Q.  My name is Edina Residovic, I am Defence counsel for

    21          Mr. Zejnil Delalic.  I would like to ask you, Mr. Vukalo,

    22          to wait to hear the interpretation of my question, the

    23          interpretation into English, and when the interpretation

    24          is over to answer my question, because in that way

    25          everyone can follow what we are saying.  Have I made

Page 6312

     1          myself clear?

     2      A.  Yes.

     3      Q.  Thank you.  Mr. Vukalo, in the course of your

     4          examination-in-chief by the Prosecutor you provided the

     5          basic data about yourself.  We know that you came from

     6          Konjic, that before the war you were working at the

     7          Igman factory until you were laid off just before the

     8          war.

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  Mr. Vukalo, I would like to know whether you became a

    11          member of the SDS immediately after it was founded in

    12          the municipality of Konjic?

    13      A.  After the SDS party was founded, and the SDA party, the

    14          HDZ party, I did not immediately join, but on one

    15          occasion a man from the village of Bjelovcina who was a

    16          drunkard, actually, I do not know how that came about,

    17          but he joined the party and he picked up some membership

    18          cards.  Then he distributed those cards in the village.

    19          Of course, he asked for some money for these cards, and

    20          that is how in my village, people joined that party, so

    21          that it was really not very serious.

    22      Q.  Therefore in 1992, before the outbreak of the conflict

    23          in the territory of the Konjic municipality, Mr. Vukalo,

    24          you became a member of the SDS in that way, did you not?

    25      A.  Yes.

Page 6313

     1      Q.  Can you tell me, what is the name of the man who

     2          distributed these membership cards?

     3      A.  I can, his name was Bozo Bendzo.

     4      Q.  Thank you.  Were you aware that the SDS of Konjic was

     5          preparing and then in March 1992 actually adopted a

     6          decision on the formation of the Serb municipality of

     7          Konjic to which your village of Bjelovcina was to

     8          belong?

     9      A.  I knew very little about these things.  I hardly knew

    10          anything, in fact.

    11      Q.  Is it true, judging from the little that you did know,

    12          that other citizens of Konjic who were not Serbs, knew

    13          about this and who were severely opposed to such

    14          activities, believing that this would break up the

    15          municipality and that it was an anti-constitutional act?

    16      A.  My village was quite far removed from the town of

    17          Konjic, and I did not know anything about this, who was

    18          against and who was for this, and I was in the village

    19          at the time.

    20      Q.  However, as you have already testified, at that time you

    21          were working at the Igman factory in Konjic, which is

    22          the most powerful, the most important factory in the

    23          municipality.  It is mostly engaged in military

    24          production but you were working in the civilian

    25          department.  I want to know whether you noticed among

Page 6314

     1          your colleagues from different ethnic groups, whether

     2          they were disturbed by these activities?

     3      A.  I have already said that I was sent home to wait, and

     4          I was at home.

     5      Q.  Will you tell me, please, Mr. Vukalo, is it true that

     6          with that aim in mind, which you said you knew very

     7          little about, the illegal arming of the Serb population

     8          started by the JNA through the SDS?

     9      A.  As far as the arming is concerned, I was living in this

    10          hamlet, Vukalo, which was about a kilometre away from

    11          the closest hamlet, and I do not know exactly what was

    12          happening.

    13      Q.  Mr. Vukalo, you know where Borci, Bjela and these places

    14          are in the eastern part of the Konjic municipality in

    15          the direction of Mount Prenj, on Mount Prenj actually?

    16      A.  Yes, of course, I do from before the war.

    17      Q.  And you probably know, Mr. Vukalo, that already in April

    18          a part of the Serb population from the city was moving

    19          in the direction of the Borci Lake?

    20      A.  As far as I know, I do not think anyone went from my

    21          village.  As for other villages and the town, maybe they

    22          did, I do not know.

    23      Q.  But you probably know that Kister and Borci were already

    24          under the control of the Serb forces already by then?

    25      A.  I am not aware of any Serb Army being there, nor do

Page 6315

     1          I know anything about this.

     2      Q.  Do you know, Mr. Vukalo, that the other villages in which

     3          the Serbs constituted a majority were also being armed

     4          and that they had formed village guards on the main

     5          roads, interrupted traffic, allegedly defending

     6          themselves from attack?

     7      A.  My village, as I said, was surrounded by seven or eight

     8          and more, perhaps, Muslim villages.  In the direction of

     9          the town there was the Croatian village of Pokojiste,

    10          and the majority Serb population was in the village of

    11          Bradina, so I do not know at all how this happened or

    12          what happened.

    13      Q.  Mr. Vukalo, you were working in a military factory,

    14          Igman, and you must know that the arming of the

    15          Territorial Defence of the municipalities of Jablanica,

    16          Konjic and Borci were housed in the Ljuta area in

    17          Konjic?

    18      A.  I was working in the civilian section of the Igman

    19          factory and never in my life did I go into the military

    20          section of the factory.  What there was there, I do not

    21          know.

    22      Q.  Mr. Vukalo, before your testimony here today, and before

    23          you spoke to the authorised representative of the

    24          Prosecutor of this Tribunal, did you also make a

    25          statement before the district court of Belgrade in

Page 6316

     1          October 1995?

     2      A.  I gave a statement, I made a statement in Belgrade to

     3          this committee for the investigation of war crimes.

     4          I do not remember the person before whom I made this

     5          statement, and I also made a statement in the office of

     6          The Hague Tribunal in Belgrade, and that is all.

     7      Q.  Mr. Vukalo, are you son of Spaso?

     8      A.  Yes.

     9      Q.  And you were born on 29th March 1964?

    10      A.  Yes.

    11      Q.  You say now, and you are aware of the fact that you are

    12          speaking under oath, are you not?

    13      A.  Yes.

    14      Q.  Now you say that in October 1995 you did not make a

    15          statement to the district court in Belgrade on

    16          22nd October 1995?

    17      A.  I gave a statement to a man from this committee.  That

    18          is how he introduced himself, from the committee, from

    19          Belgrade, as a court for the investigation of war

    20          crimes.

    21      Q.  Did this man who examined you introduce himself as

    22          Paunovic Miodrag, investigative judge?

    23      A.  I believe that he did -- yes, he did.

    24      Q.  Did this judge, Mr. Vukalo, warn you that it was your

    25          duty to tell the truth and that you were not to withhold

Page 6317

     1          anything and that you were also warned of the

     2          consequences of perjury and that you had the duty to

     3          answer the questions put to you and that you were only

     4          not to answer those questions, in respect of yourself or

     5          a close relative of yours, which would inflict serious

     6          outrage upon you or a relative of yours, or entail

     7          material damage or a material prosecution for them; did

     8          the judge warn you of this?

     9      A.  He asked me -- normally he asked me questions, and he

    10          asked me to tell him -- of course, he asked me to tell

    11          him the truth and I told him the truth.

    12      Q.  And you signed every single page of what you had stated

    13          before that judge?

    14      A.  I did sign something, probably that.

    15      Q.  Counsel, if I read a part of this statement, please be

    16          so kind as to tell me whether you had indeed stated this

    17          to the judge.  On page 2:

    18                "In our quarters we Serbs are in the minority, but

    19          we relied upon the JNA and believed they would protect

    20          us.  This belief was based on promises which the

    21          military commanders gave to Rajko Djordjic and other

    22          prominent Serbs in the area.  The JNA, as far as I can

    23          recall, in April 1992, the JNA, as an armed force,

    24          withdrew from the region of Konjic, and Muslim forces

    25          took over the military facilities."

Page 6318

     1                Did you state this, Mr. Vukalo?

     2      A.  That is the way it was formulated.  Could you please be

     3          so kind, I apologise, as to repeat it once again.

     4      Q.  "In this area, we Serbs are in the minority, but we

     5          relied on the JNA and we believed they would protect

     6          us.  This belief was based on the promises made by the

     7          military commanders to Rajko Djordjic and other

     8          prominent Serbs in the area.  As far as I can remember

     9          in April 1992 the JNA withdrew from the area of Konjic

    10          as an armed force."

    11      A.  This knowledge, only when I went out from the camp to be

    12          exchanged, actually I only heard then that some promises

    13          of that kind were being given to Rajko, but I do not

    14          know of it myself, whether that was actually the case,

    15          but when I left, when I left the camp, I heard that from

    16          some people down there in Ilidza.

    17      Q.  Mr. Vukalo, please, on the basis of these facts which you

    18          presented to the judge as your own knowledge, do you

    19          know that the JNA as an armed force gave armaments

    20          through the SDS to the Serb population in the area of

    21          the municipality of Konjic?

    22      A.  That it gave arms to the Serb population, that the JNA

    23          gave arms to the Serb population is something I do not

    24          know.

    25      Q.  You have said before this Tribunal that in your village,

Page 6319

     1          there was no defence at all, there had been no

     2          preparations for a defence and that you had no arms; is

     3          that so?

     4      A.  I said that I lived in my hamlet, in this hamlet where

     5          there were five or six households, all by the surname of

     6          Vukalo, and that as far as I knew there were very few

     7          men in the entire village, able bodied men, that is, and

     8          the village was surrounded by seven to eight Muslim

     9          villages, and the Croat village of Pokojiste was also in

    10          the surrounding belt and I was not aware of any

    11          organising actions for defence.

    12      Q.  Mr. Vukalo, in that statement when you were warned that

    13          it was your duty to tell the truth, just to remind you,

    14          I shall read a statement and please tell me whether it

    15          is true you stated this to the judge in Belgrade.

    16          Page 2, paragraph 2:

    17                "In order to protect ourselves and to preserve our

    18          lives, the lives of the members of our families and our

    19          property, we organised ourselves to defend ourselves

    20          with the few arms that we had.  We maintained guard duty

    21          in order not to be suddenly attacked."

    22                Are these the words that you said under oath to

    23          the judge in Belgrade?

    24      A.  I arrived in Belgrade from the Serb republic, Republika

    25          Srpska, then I was tired.  I had used all sorts of

Page 6320

     1          means of transportation to get there.  Normally there

     2          was some hunting weapons in the village, some hunting

     3          rifles, and some people did have pistols, perhaps, but

     4          I do not know of it.  I do not know who.  There may have

     5          been some weapons, that is to say, I do not know how

     6          many.  The people in the various hamlets which composed

     7          the village, we have these hamlets with five or ten

     8          households in each, with 500 metres or a kilometre

     9          dividing one from another.

    10      Q.  Thank you.  But after you have explained this to us, now

    11          this means, Mr. Vukalo, that this morning when answering

    12          the questions of my distinguished colleague, the

    13          Prosecutor, in connection with whether there had been

    14          any defence and weapons and you replied in the negative,

    15          you were not exactly giving wholly the exact facts that

    16          you are aware of; is that not so?

    17      A.  I said that in my hamlet there was no defence mounted at

    18          all, nor anything of the kind.  That is what I said.

    19      Q.  Mr. Vukalo, if, before the investigating judge of the

    20          district court in Belgrade, before whom you also gave an

    21          account under oath, if then you said, "We did put up a

    22          resistance and the combat lasted for about an hour, but

    23          as we were outnumbered, we were defeated and we had to

    24          retreat and we moved in the surrounding forest until we

    25          were caught in the days after that together with the

Page 6321

     1          women and children", that certainly differs from what

     2          you have stated before this court?

     3      A.  When my village was attacked, when my hamlet was

     4          attacked, not a single bullet -- I did not hear a single

     5          bullet being fired from the direction of the houses in

     6          the hamlet in which I lived; nor did I hear any bullet

     7          fired from the village.

     8                Later, after I had already been locked up in

     9          Celebici, I found out that no one had been killed by the

    10          Croat or Muslim army.

    11      Q.  But I am asking you, Mr. Vukalo, I only read your words,

    12          the words you said in front of the investigative judge

    13          in Belgrade.  I am not discussing the fact whether they

    14          are truthful or not, I just want to submit it to you

    15          that in this record which you have signed, you have said

    16          "we put up a resistance and the fight lasted for about

    17          an hour" and so on and so forth.  Did you state this

    18          before that judge?

    19      A.  Maybe it was formulated thus, but that is not what

    20          I said, that is for sure.

    21      Q.  So the judge wrote this down although you did not say it

    22          in that way?

    23      A.  It may have been formulated thus, but that is certainly

    24          not what I stated.  There was no resistance, and later

    25          I also found out in Celebici that no one had put up any

Page 6322

     1          resistance, even the people that did have the hunting

     2          rifles did not use them.

     3      Q.  Mr. Vukalo, you have just now said that you were admitted

     4          to the SDS by Bendzo Dusko?

     5      A.  No, Bosko.

     6      Q.  I apologise, thank you.  Do you know Dusko Bendzo?

     7      A.  He lives at the far end, at the beginning, so to speak,

     8          of the village of Bjelovcina, and I am in the upper

     9          section, on the other end, but I do know him.

    10      Q.  Bjelovcina is not a very large village.  How many

    11          inhabitants does it have?

    12      A.  Not too many, but the distances are great from hamlet to

    13          hamlet.

    14      Q.  Do you know Strahinja Zivak, known as Strajo, from

    15          Brdjani?

    16      A.  That is the man whose sons were executed in Bradina.

    17          Two of his sons were shot in Bradina, that is what

    18          I heard.  Do you mean that man?

    19      Q.  I do not know, I am asking you whether you know this

    20          person.  Do you know Strahinja Zivak who was the

    21          vice-president of the SDS in the municipality of Konjic?

    22      A.  I have heard that two of his sons were executed down

    23          there in Bradina, and I may have seen him, but I cannot

    24          exactly say that I know him well.

    25      Q.  Is it true, Mr. Vukalo, that Dusko Bendzo was entrusted,

Page 6323

     1          together with Strahinja Zivak, with arming the Serb

     2          population in the area of your village?

     3      A.  I do not know of that.

     4      Q.  Mr. Vukalo, is it true that the deputy of Dusko Bendzo

     5          was Slavoljub Bendzo, do you know him?

     6      A.  I know Slavoljub Bendzo.  I do not believe he engaged in

     7          any activities of that kind.

     8      Q.  Do you know Miro Djurdjic and Mirco Babic, Mr. Vukalo?

     9      A.  Of course I know Miro Djurdjic and Mirco Babic, of

    10          course.  They are from my village but from another

    11          hamlet.

    12      Q.  Do you know that they had been charged with the task in

    13          the SDS, of which you just happened to be a member, to

    14          maintain contact, liaise with Strahinja Zivak?

    15      A.  Possibly.  I cannot claim anything to that effect.

    16      Q.  Did you, Mr. Vukalo, somewhere around the end of January,

    17          receive a call for the Reserve Corps of the JNA and

    18          towards the end of that year actually join the reserve

    19          corps in Mostar?

    20      A.  I hardly managed to serve the regular service in the

    21          JNA, because of cardiac surgery, which, of course,

    22          I have evidence of.  I was operated on by Professor

    23          Isidor Papo, so that I was not capable -- I was not

    24          exactly militarily capable.

    25      Q.  Yes, I have heard that, Mr. Vukalo.  You said so in

Page 6324

     1          connection with your service in the army of which you

     2          served the whole term, in fact.  What I want to know is,

     3          did you respond to this call for entering the Reserve

     4          Corps in February in Mostar and then stay there perhaps

     5          for a couple of days, for the same reasons as you

     6          adduced here returned home; is that correct?

     7      A.  No.

     8      Q.  Mr. Vukalo, you have stated before this Tribunal that you

     9          did not have a rifle, that you were not armed, is that

    10          so?

    11      A.  No, I did not have a rifle of my own, no, I did not have

    12          a rifle.

    13      Q.  Is it nevertheless true, Mr. Vukalo, that you were issued

    14          a machine gun?

    15      A.  Perhaps someone who did that also wrote that, but I am

    16          not aware of any such fact myself.  How these were

    17          issued, I am not aware that they were issued at all.

    18          I do not know.

    19      Q.  Do you know, Mr. Vukalo, Amir Dzelilovic?

    20      A.  I do.

    21      Q.  He is from Kralupi?

    22      A.  Yes, he is from Kralupi.

    23      Q.  Is it true, Mr. Vukalo, that you and your relative handed

    24          over, in Kralupi, machine guns to Amir Dzelilovic?

    25      A.  When I came to Kralupi, some 100 metres away from the

Page 6325

     1          village, I was taking my mother, an old and sick woman,

     2          and my brother and a group with women and children from

     3          the hamlet, they were following us.  We were not exactly

     4          all in one single group.  I did not have any kind of

     5          weapon with me, on me.

     6      Q.  You have said, Mr. Vukalo, that prior to this hearing you

     7          had been heard by the representative of the Prosecutor

     8          of the International Tribunal; is that so?

     9      A.  I did not understand you exactly.  Can you please

    10          repeat?

    11      Q.  In 1996, on 13th November, were you heard by a

    12          representative of the Prosecutor's office of the

    13          International Tribunal in The Hague?

    14      A.  In Belgrade, in the office of the Tribunal, of The Hague

    15          Tribunal, I gave a statement, yes.  I do not remember

    16          the date.  I expect it is written there.

    17      Q.  Is it true that you told the truth to the best of your

    18          knowledge to that investigator?

    19      A.  I do not recall exactly what I said to him.  You can ask

    20          me.

    21      Q.  Did you, at that time, Mr. Vukalo, sign a certificate

    22          after the statement had been translated to you, in which

    23          you said that you had given the statement of your own

    24          volition, that you were aware that it could be used in a

    25          procedure before this Tribunal, and that it was true and

Page 6326

     1          faithful to your recollection; do you remember that?

     2      A.  I do not recall having said exactly that, but I did sign

     3          something.

     4      Q.  In order to refresh your memory in respect of what you

     5          told the investigator, I will read the following text,

     6          which is also contained in the statement:

     7                "I decided to try to surrender to the friends of

     8          my relative Vlado from Kralupi to Amir Dzelilovic,

     9          because the soldiers were shooting at random.  Vlado,

    10          I went to seek him.  Around 100 metres from Kralupi we

    11          surrendered to Amir and we also gave up the two rifles

    12          that we had kept to protect ourselves.  In total, there

    13          were 20 of us who surrendered, including my mother."

    14                Did you say that to the investigator?

    15      A.  The very expression as regards the expression

    16          "surrender", I have a problem with it.  I was not

    17          fleeing with anyone.  I approached Kralupi together with

    18          the women, children, the elderly, the sick, the infirm.

    19          We were scared because of the shooting and we tried to

    20          get away from it, in a way, and we approached our

    21          neighbours and wanted to approach our neighbours in the

    22          village of Kralupi to protect us, to give us shelter.

    23          We were beside ourselves with fear, we were surprised.

    24      Q.  Kralupi?

    25      A.  Yes.

Page 6327

     1      Q.  Is it true that you and Vlado handed over, surrendered

     2          to Amir, his friend, two light machine guns?

     3      A.  I said that I was leading, taking my mother, old and

     4          infirm and sick, with my brother and that there was this

     5          staggered group of 20 of us, we were not all in a single

     6          group, and I gave him no weapons.  I had none.  In fact,

     7          I and my brother had to carry my mother.

     8      Q.  So if these words which I have just read to you are

     9          written down as your words, then the investigator wrote

    10          down something which you, in fact, did not say?

    11      A.  Maybe they did not understand, I do not know.

    12      Q.  Did you have occasion to hear a translation of

    13          everything that you had said to them?

    14      A.  When I spoke, I was having a very hard time, I was very

    15          embarrassed.  At a certain point I really did not know

    16          exactly what I was saying.  It is a very unpleasant

    17          memory for one to recall.  I am trying to put it all

    18          behind, to forget it all, if that is at all a feasible

    19          proposition.  I know that I had to stop every now and

    20          then because I could not endure it, to keep remembering

    21          those things.

    22      Q.  But you do confirm that there is a difference between

    23          what I have read to you and that which you said in court

    24          here today; is that true?

    25      A.  What I said here today and what you are reading, it may

Page 6328

     1          be formulated the way you read it, but I repeat that

     2          I had no weapons at all.  Someone may have written that

     3          down the way it is written, but I do not know.  I know

     4          that in Belgrade, in the office of the Tribunal of

     5          The Hague, I was shaken.  I stopped, I interrupted my

     6          statement every now and then.  I really had a hard time

     7          giving it.

     8      MS. RESIDOVIC:  It would be time, your Honour, to adjourn

     9          today, for me to finish my cross-examination for today.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you very much.  We will continue

    11          tomorrow at 10.00 the cross-examination of this

    12          witness.

    13      (5.30 pm)

    14             (Court adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)