Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6329

1 Friday, 15th August 1997

2 (10.00 am)

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

4 I will have the appearances, please.

5 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases, my name is Niemann and

6 I appear with my colleagues Mr. Turone and

7 Ms. Van Dusschoten for the prosecution.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: For the defence, please?

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Edina

10 Residovic, defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic. With

11 me in the team is my colleague Eugene O'Sullivan,

12 professor from Canada.

13 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Zeljko Olujic,

14 defence counsel for Mr. Zdravko Mucic. My co-counsel is

15 my colleague, Michael Greaves, attorney from the

16 United Kingdom.

17 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Salih

18 Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, I am defending

19 Mr. Hazim Delic. With me is Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney

20 from Houston, Texas.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours, I am John Ackerman

22 and along with my co-counsel Cynthia McMurray, we appear

23 on behalf of the defendant Mr. Esad Landzo.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Ms. Residovic ,

25 I think you were still continuing your

Page 6330

1 cross-examination. Kindly remind the witness he is

2 still under oath.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Vukalo, may I remind you you are still

4 under oath.

5 HRISTO VUKALO (continued)

6 Cross-examination by MS. RESIDOVIC (continued)

7 Q. May I proceed, your Honours?

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Vukalo.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. Have you had a rest after yesterday, which must have

12 been a tiring day for you?

13 A. I have rested and it was not tiring.

14 Q. We will resume where we stopped yesterday. We were

15 discussing the defence in your village and your

16 participation in that defence, and the statements that

17 you made before coming here to testify in the district

18 court in Belgrade and to the investigator of the

19 prosecution from The Hague. For us to be able to have

20 an easier time, and to make it clear to you that I do

21 not have any intention of confusing you, I would like to

22 refresh your memory with a copy of this statement that

23 you made in Belgrade, and the statement that you made to

24 the investigator of the International Tribunal, so that

25 when I ask you something about these statements, you can

Page 6331

1 yourself find the place that I am referring to, so

2 I would like to ask the usher for his assistance to give

3 the witness copies of these statements. (Handed).

4 THE REGISTRAR: The statements have been marked D60/1 A, B

5 and C.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Vukalo, will you look at the statement

7 written in Cyrillic script. It says "Minutes on the

8 Hearing of a Witness"; do you see your signature on

9 every page of this statement in Cyrillic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So that is the statement that you made to the

12 investigating judge of the district court in Belgrade

13 that we were referring to yesterday?

14 A. Yes, I did, but whether everything is quite correct I am

15 not sure.

16 Q. Will you please look at this statement in English now,

17 another statement? Is that the statement that you

18 signed each page of in Latin script?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that is the statement you made to the investigator

21 of the OTP; is that not so?

22 A. Probably; it must be.

23 Q. In addition to that statement, you also have a

24 translation into the Serbian language of the same

25 statement. The date is 13th November 1996.

Page 6332

1 A. Yes, that is what it says.

2 Q. To be even more precise about this statement, will you

3 please turn to the last page of the Serbian text, where

4 it says "Witness Acknowledgment"? That same certificate

5 is to be found on the last page of the English text,

6 where your signature is, is it not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Does it say there that:

9 "This statement has been read over to me in the

10 Serbian language and is true to the best of my

11 recollection. I have given this statement voluntarily

12 and I am aware that it may be used in legal proceedings

13 before the International Criminal Tribunal for the

14 prosecution of persons responsible for serious

15 violations of international law committed in the

16 territory of the Former Yugoslavia since 1991, and that

17 I may be called to give evidence in public before the

18 Tribunal."

19 Is that what it says?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. Thank you. I will now continue with the questions where

22 we left off yesterday.

23 Will you please turn to page 2 of the statement

24 you made to the investigating judge in Belgrade and to

25 see whether in paragraph 2 of that statement it says:

Page 6333

1 "In order to protect ourselves and our lives, the

2 lives of the members of our families and our property,

3 we organised ourselves for defence with the little

4 weapons we had. We kept guard duty so as not to be

5 attacked by surprise."

6 I have just read a part of the text to be found

7 there. Will you tell me please: yesterday you stated in

8 court that the inhabitants of your village did not

9 organise defence, that you did not have any guard duty.

10 Are these two different statements, Mr. Vukalo?

11 A. What I said yesterday was that we did not have any

12 weapons and we did not have any in the hamlet I was

13 living in. As for this statement that I made, madam,

14 when you recall something very unpleasant, I know I was

15 crying, I had a very hard time. It was the first time

16 I was being questioned after I had left the camp, so it

17 was formulated more by the others. I was speaking in a

18 disconnected manner, so this is not word by word what

19 I said.

20 Q. Mr. Vukalo, I will try to put to you very simple

21 questions. Will you please look at the first page of

22 the statement that you made to the investigator of

23 the Hague Tribunal, the first one after the cover page,

24 third paragraph, third sentence:

25 "I believe there were some weapons in Donje Selo,

Page 6334

1 but very little in my village. In Bjelovcina there were

2 not more than 20 people under arms. Very little was

3 done in preparation for defence because we had hoped

4 that the JNA would protect us."

5 Yesterday in court you said that there was no

6 defence in the village of Bjelovcina, so my question is

7 very simple. Will you please answer it for me? Is

8 there a difference between what is said here in the

9 statement that you made to the investigator of the

10 Tribunal from what you stated here in court?

11 A. Regarding the hamlet that I was living in, there was no

12 defence, and it is impossible for the village to have

13 had any proper defence because it is surrounded by

14 seven, eight Muslim villages.

15 Q. My question is very simple: can you see that what is

16 contained in this statement made to the investigator of

17 the International Tribunal in Belgrade and what you said

18 here in the court are two different things? Is it

19 different or not, that is the very simple question I am

20 putting to you. Does what you said before differ from

21 what you said here in court?

22 A. I think there was some hunting weapons in the village of

23 Bjelovcina. Anyway, I do not know. If there was any,

24 I have no idea how much there was. I know that there

25 were not many able-bodied men in the village of

Page 6335

1 Bjelovcina, because the younger men were leaving. It

2 was a village that had no asphalt road, people went away

3 to work --

4 Q. I apologise for interrupting you, but let me remind you:

5 in answer to a question from the prosecution here in

6 court as to whether there was any kind of organised

7 defence at the time, you answered as follows:

8 "I cannot talk about the organisation of defence.

9 There were only 50 or 60 able-bodied men there."

10 Then my colleague continued with the following

11 question:

12 "Did you participate in the defence of the

13 village?

14 Answer: On the part of the inhabitants of the

15 village of Bjelovcina, I never heard then or later that

16 they had put up any kind of resistance."

17 So my question is: what you said as I have read

18 out and what is written in the previous statement, do

19 the two differ?

20 A. As far as I know, there was no resistance from the

21 village of Bjelovcina, no resistance. Some hunting

22 weapons and personal pistols in private property, when

23 I came to Celebici camp, I heard that these rifles had

24 been given up, but I know there was no resistance and

25 I do not see that it is possible to put up resistance,

Page 6336

1 though I have really no idea about military strategy at

2 all.

3 Q. Mr. Vukalo, will you please answer my question. Does

4 what you said before and what you said in court differ?

5 MR. NIEMANN: This could go on all day. Counsel keeps asking

6 the question, the witness gives an answer, counsel does

7 not like the answer, it is not the answer she wants, so

8 we go on and on and on again. The witness has given an

9 answer. If that is not satisfactory to counsel, that is

10 unfortunate; that is what often happens. This just

11 amounts to harassment if it continues on forever, and

12 I object to it.

13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, she has asked the question "does it

14 differ", and that is pretty much a yes or no response.

15 Either it differs or it does not. She has asked the

16 question several times and has yet to receive one

17 answer.

18 MR. NIEMANN: I do not understand why Mr. Moran is objecting.

19 It is not his cross-examination. What is the basis of

20 Mr. Moran's objection, standing up at this moment? I am

21 sure that counsel can handle the situation herself.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

23 Ms Residovic, I think you know what questions you

24 have asked and what answers have been received to those

25 questions. There is a way of going to the same question

Page 6337

1 in a different way. The more you ask the same

2 questions, you are likely to get the same answers, but

3 you can find another way of getting a different answer

4 if you want that. There is no way you can compel the

5 person to give answers the way you want it, so perhaps

6 you frame it in a different way.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honours. I thought that my

8 question was a simple one that could be answered with a

9 yes or a no, and that the witness would answer that

10 question. I shall try in line with your advice to put

11 the question again to the witness.

12 Mr. Vukalo, the text I have read from the statement

13 made to the prosecution truthfully reflects the

14 statement you made?

15 A. What I said in Belgrade?

16 Q. Did I read it correctly is my question.

17 A. You read what is written there.

18 Q. Have I correctly cited what you were asked by my learned

19 colleague, the Prosecutor, as well as your answer to

20 that question? Have I cited that correctly?

21 A. Madam, I am answering to the best of my knowledge as to

22 what I said in Belgrade.

23 Q. Will you please answer my question: did I correctly read

24 out the question and the answer made here in court?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6338

1 Q. The two differ, do they not?

2 A. I said "as far as i know". I cannot say something I do

3 not know, but please let me, madam, finish my sentence.

4 I am saying that this questioning was the first one

5 since my release. I was crying, I was upset, and it is

6 something extremely unpleasant and painful, so I do not

7 know myself what I said, nor how it was formulated when

8 it was written down. I suffered a great deal.

9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Vukalo, would you please look again at

10 the statement. Just a moment please -- the statement

11 you made for the judge in Belgrade on page 2,

12 paragraph 3, the second sentence. I am going to read it

13 for you, so will you confirm that that is what it says

14 there:

15 "We put up resistance and the fighting lasted

16 about one hour, but as they were superior, they broke up

17 our defences so that we separated into groups and moved

18 around in the surrounding woods until they captured us

19 in the next day or two, together with the women and

20 children."

21 Is that what it says in this statement?

22 A. Yes, that is what it says in this statement, but what it

23 says here is not what I said. It is not what I said at

24 all. How could there be any resistance when no one was

25 hurt or killed on the side of the Muslim and Croat army

Page 6339

1 that were attacking us? I learned that much later in

2 the Celebici camp, that not one of the attackers was

3 killed or wounded.

4 Q. Is it true that when my colleague the Prosecutor asked

5 you yesterday as follows:

6 "Did you see or know anyone who was defending the

7 village from the people who were attacking you?"

8 Was your answer, Mr. Vukalo:

9 "I did not hear a single shot coming from the

10 village"?

11 A. Yes, that is true; I did not hear a single shot.

12 Q. Then my colleague continued:

13 "Was anyone engaged in the defence of the village?

14 Answer: As concerns the inhabitants of the

15 village of Bjelovcina, I did not hear that any kind of

16 resistance was put up."

17 Is that what you said in court here?

18 A. It is.

19 Q. Is it true that there is a difference between the

20 sentence that I read out to you a moment ago and what

21 you said here in court?

22 A. What I said before this honourable court is what I said,

23 I myself, and what is written here are not my words.

24 That is maybe how it was understood and how it was

25 formulated, but it is not what I said. This sentence

Page 6340

1 that you read, there was no resistance, what kind of

2 resistance? We were fleeing with the children, the

3 women, the elderly; and the people who had hunting

4 rifles, I heard later in the camp, they had surrendered

5 them.

6 Q. But, Mr. Vukalo, a defence that lasted one hour and no

7 defence at all are two different things.

8 A. As far as I know, there was no defence in my hamlet for

9 sure, and as I heard later on, there was no defence in

10 the village as a whole. Nobody fired any weapons, and

11 I certainly did not hear a single shot. That is as much

12 as I can say.

13 Q. Mr. Vukalo, can you please turn to page 3 of your

14 statement for the investigating judge in Belgrade?

15 I will read out from the third paragraph sentences to be

16 found somewhere in the middle of that paragraph, so will

17 you please try and find them:

18 "After some time, Amir Dzelilovic came there,

19 bringing with him Vlado Vukalo, who was carrying several

20 rifles, and those were our rifles which we had left

21 behind, and then they forced Vlado to go and collect

22 them and he brought them over."

23 Have I cited correctly the text to be found in

24 that statement?

25 A. You have read it as it is written.

Page 6341

1 Q. Mr. Vukalo, will you please now look at the end of page 1

2 of the statement that you made for the investigator of

3 the Hague Tribunal, the translation into Serbian? The

4 last sentence on that first page reads, going over to

5 the next page, as follows. I will read it out so please

6 confirm it for me:

7 "I decided to try and surrender to the friends of

8 my relative Vlado from Kralupi, Dzelilovic Amir, because

9 the soldiers were shooting at random. Vlado went to

10 look for him. About 100 metres from Kralupi, we

11 surrendered to Amir, and we gave up two rifles which we

12 had kept to protect ourselves. All in all, there were

13 20 of us who surrendered, including my mother, an old

14 woman who could hardly walk, and some infants."

15 Is that the text to be found in the statement you

16 made to the investigator of the prosecution?

17 A. What you read is written here, but I saw Vlado in Bozo

18 Tomic's cellar, as I said yesterday. I do not know

19 where he was going. That I do not know, but when I was

20 taken there from Amir Dzelilovic's house, as I said

21 yesterday, they took me there and in front of Gulas's

22 house I was beaten up, and then they took me to Bozo

23 Tomic's house, and I saw Vlado in the cellar of that

24 house for the first time.

25 Q. What I have read is to be found in the statement that

Page 6342

1 you made to the investigator of the prosecution of the

2 International Tribunal, MacLeod, Alistair, on

3 13th November 1996; is that correct? Yesterday, in

4 answer to a question from my learned colleague the

5 Prosecutor, you said -- the question was as follows:

6 "When you went into the woods, did you take any

7 weapons with you?"

8 You answered: no.

9 A. I did not take any weapons because I did not have any.

10 Q. In answer to the next question of my learned colleague,

11 whether at the time of the attack you had any weapons in

12 your house, you answered:

13 "No, I did not."

14 Is what you said to the Tribunal in Belgrade and

15 to the investigator of the Hague Tribunal and what you

16 have said to the Trial Chamber yesterday -- are they

17 different statements? Do they look different? You have

18 given your explanation. I am asking simply: is this

19 different?

20 A. When I was making the statement to the Hague Tribunal

21 representative in Belgrade, I interrupted my statement

22 on several occasions and Mr. MacLeod can remember that

23 and he can confirm that, because I was crying. I was

24 sobbing and I do not know how I was speaking, but what

25 I said here yesterday was exactly the way it was, and

Page 6343

1 I cannot say things I do not know, nor would I like to

2 say anything I do not know. I can only tell you what

3 I do know.

4 Q. Mr. Vukalo, you are now saying that, because you were

5 interrupted, because you were excited and distressed,

6 that Mr. Alistair MacLeod was writing things which you

7 did not actually say?

8 A. There was also an interpreter here. How could he

9 understand everything? I do not know how he understood

10 me, how he translated as I was sobbing, but what it says

11 in the paper I do not agree with.

12 Q. Mr. Vukalo, do you remember that yesterday, asked by my

13 learned colleague the Prosecutor, when he asked you

14 whether you were engaged or involved in any kind of

15 military activity at the time prior to the military

16 activities in 1992, at the very beginning of 1992, you

17 answered "no".

18 A. Yes, I answered no, which is true.

19 Q. Look at your statement to the investigating judge of the

20 district court in Belgrade, page 2, where it says as

21 follows, in the middle of the first sentence, and I only

22 read that part of the sentence:

23 "We organised ourselves for defence with some few

24 weapons that we had. We had vigilante groups and

25 guarded objects not to be attacked suddenly and

Page 6344

1 unexpectedly."

2 A. That is what it says, but in my hamlet, there was no

3 organised defence. Whether there were vigilante groups

4 that was in the village, that was a kilometre from my

5 hamlet, five more hamlets from our house and I do not

6 know what happened there.

7 Q. Now I would like to ask you, Mr. Vukalo, to look at the

8 first page of your statement to the investigator of the

9 International Tribunal. Look at the third paragraph .

10 It begins like this:

11 "A couple of days before the fighting began in the

12 village, I received a rifle to defend my home.

13 I received this from Dusko Bendzo, but I do not know

14 where he received this from. I believe there were some

15 weapons in Donje Selo and in my village very few. In

16 Bjelovcina, there were not more than 20 armed people."

17 Is that what your statement says, Mr. Vukalo?

18 A. That is what the statement says on paper, yes. You read

19 it correctly.

20 Q. Did you, when asked by my learned colleague the

21 Prosecutor -- did you not say clearly to this Tribunal

22 that you had no rifle?

23 A. And I did not have it.

24 Q. That you did not take it with you to the woods, that you

25 did not have it in your home --

Page 6345

1 A. Of course I did not. How could I have had it? How

2 could I have taken it with me if I did not have it?

3 Q. These answers that you gave to the Tribunal yesterday,

4 are they not different from the words that I read from

5 the statement that you gave to the investigator of the

6 International Tribunal?

7 A. Madam, I learned when I was in the camp, Celebici camp

8 -- I learned that people who had their hunting guns or

9 pistols and so on, whatever people had, some people may

10 have bought the weapons, but these weapons were in the

11 village, but in my hamlet, I never saw a single gun, a

12 single rifle. These were weapons that five people were

13 the collective owners of a single rifle, but in my

14 hamlet, we did not have anything and I cannot tell you

15 anything. What I am saying now I only heard in the

16 Celebici camp when I arrived there.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vukalo. We will not need the statements

18 any more. I will ask you something else directly.

19 Did you, Mr. Vukalo, have a heavy machine-gun of

20 army issue?

21 A. No, I did not.

22 Q. As a member of the SDS party, in early April 1992, were

23 you not informed by your acquaintances Miro Djurdjic and

24 Spaso Babic that the SDS party had a task for you?

25 A. I told you yesterday how I became a member. Be patient

Page 6346

1 with me and I will repeat that. I became a member

2 because an elderly man from my village with many

3 children, Djorde Bendzo -- he is 50 years old or more,

4 alcoholic -- he went to the SDS offices, headquarters in

5 the town, and he brought with him a heap of membership

6 cards. He took some money for that and he spent it on

7 alcohol. Actually, I was not a member of the SDS, only

8 formally.

9 Q. Mr. Vukalo, we heard your explanation that you gave to

10 this tribunal, how you became a member, and everything

11 you said is in the transcript and in the protocol, but

12 now, to facilitate matters for us and for the court,

13 please answer my question. Were you informed by Miro

14 Djurdjic and Spaso Babic in early April 1992 that the

15 SDS party has a task for you, an assignment?

16 A. I cannot remember that.

17 Q. Did you after that, Mr. Vukalo, together with Dusko

18 Bendzo, Dragan Sinic and Spaso Babic -- did you go with

19 two cars, Skoda and Lada -- did you go to Dzelusa from

20 where you took a Yugoslav army lorry and you brought the

21 lorry full of weapons, rifles, M48, and two heavy

22 machine-guns?

23 A. I have never been to the village that you mentioned.

24 I went to Konjic, I went to Sarajevo before the war, but

25 to these villages down by the Neretva that you mentioned

Page 6347

1 now, I never went. I have never been in that village in

2 my life nor have I heard the name of that village.

3 Q. Is it true, Mr. Vukalo, that after that, together with

4 Dusko Bendzo and Dusan Tomic, you went to Borci and from

5 the Yugoslav People's Army took over three heavy machine

6 guns and two automatic rifles?

7 A. No, not all.

8 Q. Mr. Vukalo, at the moment when you were arrested, you

9 said you also recognised some neighbours in HVO

10 uniforms.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is it true that in the house of Jozic, called Aga, there

13 was a command post for some of these units?

14 A. Yes, there were quite a number of soldiers there and

15 from there they called for vans to come and collect us.

16 I understood this was some kind of command post, I do

17 not know what level. There were quite a number of

18 soldiers who entered, who left.

19 Q. After spending the night in the motel, you were then

20 taken to the Celebici camp?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In Celebici, according to your statements so far, you

23 actually found some 7 to 12 young men from Brdjani?

24 A. I actually found there are some 7, I do not know the

25 exact number, but there were not more than ten people

Page 6348

1 from Brdjani and from my village. I can repeat if

2 necessary. I can repeat Scepo Vukalo, Veljko Babic,

3 Ranko Dordic.

4 Q. Thank you. The people from Brjdani told you they had

5 been there for some 10 to 15 days already?

6 A. Yes, roughly. I do not remember exactly, but that is

7 what they said, roughly.

8 Q. So, Mr. Vukalo, if on the 23rd you arrived in Celebici,

9 would you then agree with me if I then say that these

10 people must have been brought into the camp between

11 5th and 10th May?

12 A. Madam, I arrived in Celebici on the 22nd, some time in

13 the afternoon; I do not remember the exact hour. When

14 they were brought to Celebici, I cannot tell you, but

15 I know that they said, "We have been here for some 10 to

16 15 days", but we did not speak much about that. We were

17 too frightened and we did not spend much time talking

18 about it.

19 Q. Yes, Mr. Vukalo, I am just doing the mathematics.

20 Anybody can do the mathematics. If you arrive on the

21 22nd, 10 to 15 days earlier would be between 5th and

22 10th May. That would roughly be the dates?

23 A. I did not do any mathematics; I only knew what they told

24 me.

25 Q. Mr. Vukalo, you are a witness who is saying that they

Page 6349

1 were imprisoned there and that they had been in prison

2 from the day they were brought there.

3 A. I do not know whether they were there in the same place

4 all the time. I found them there when I arrived and

5 they were there.

6 Q. Thank you. You also said, Mr. Vukalo, and I would like

7 to just clarify this matter for myself -- you said that

8 at first you were guarded by the military police of the

9 HVO with white belts, and that included both Muslims and

10 Croats; is that true?

11 A. I do not know whether it was the HVO, but the guards who

12 were there when I arrived to room 22, they did wear

13 white belts. Then I learned from other inmates -- Davor

14 Bendzo knew Dzajic and he knew he was a Muslim. I also

15 knew Mirsad Subasic, who actually was the first one to

16 interrogate me and I knew he was a Muslim, but for the

17 rest, they might have been Croats, they might have been

18 Muslims; I do not know what they were.

19 Q. Thank you. So the statement that you made in Celebici

20 was the statement you made to Mirsad Subasic?

21 A. Yes, I made two or three statements to Mr. Subasic.

22 Q. This was at the very beginning of your arrival, soon

23 after your arrival?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Mirsad Subasic was a member of the interior MUP of

Page 6350

1 Konjic.

2 A. I know he actually completed studies of national defence

3 or whatever. What he did and whether he worked for the

4 police or in MUP I do not know.

5 Q. You also stated that Miroslav Stenek was another of the

6 men who -- he investigated you, plus another Croat who

7 you think was the judge, presiding judge in Konjic.

8 A. Stenek interrogated us, the Croat whose name I cannot

9 remember now. I used to know it but I cannot remember

10 it now. I heard from the other inmates that he was

11 something in the court in Konjic, the presiding judge or

12 he did something in the court of law in Konjic.

13 Q. I might try to remind you: is that the man -- is that

14 perhaps Goran Lokas, the man who was the presiding judge

15 of the court in Konjic?

16 A. Yes, Lokas, exactly. That is the name.

17 Q. You said these interrogators were actually treating you

18 very fairly without abuse?

19 A. I was first interrogated by Miro Stenek and by Lokas.

20 During the interrogation, their conduct was fair, they

21 did not hit us. Everybody else was hitting us but they

22 were not hitting us. I would say they were fair and

23 correct and as soon as they were not beating, I was

24 satisfied.

25 Q. Mr. Vukalo, you also said that at one point, Mr. Subasic

Page 6351

1 left that commission and that Miro Stenek and some other

2 people continued to work as a commission for about a

3 month to come, investigating you and the other inmates?

4 A. The first to investigate was Subasic from Idbar. After

5 that, he disappeared, he was not there, he did not

6 investigate us any more. Then came Mr. Miro Stenek after

7 a while and the other person you mentioned, the Croat

8 who was the presiding judge, Lokas; they continued the

9 interrogation. For how long I do not know, but I would

10 say that it did last for about 15 days up to a month,

11 but I cannot tell you exactly.

12 Q. If I might suggest that this was until the end of June

13 perhaps, because until the end of June or early July the

14 commission was investigating and interrogating the

15 inmates; do you remember that?

16 A. It is possible, but I cannot confirm it with any degree

17 of certainty, but it is very possible.

18 Q. What you said to the interrogators was written down in a

19 statement, was it not?

20 A. Yes, it was, but let me first say that I was hit, I was

21 beaten, that I was totally scared, and I was beaten and

22 beaten more, and this arm that had been injured in the

23 motel and up there in the house of Bozo Tomic, it hurt

24 horribly. I was terrified. I was practically beside

25 myself, I did not have my wits about me.

Page 6352

1 Q. And you signed that statement which you made before the

2 investigators?

3 A. I had to sign it, I normally had to sign it.

4 Q. Just a slight digression, Mr. Vukalo. We noticed when we

5 inspected your statement in Belgrade that you signed it

6 in the Cyrillic script; is that not a fact?

7 A. As far as I am concerned, madam, the Cyrillic script and

8 the Latin script which I both learned at school are both

9 the same.

10 Q. Please, I know that, but you signed that statement in

11 the Cyrillic script?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The statement before the investigator of the

14 International Tribunal you signed in the Latin script?

15 A. Yes, in fact now I see that I did.

16 Q. Please, my question is: to us in Bosnia-Herzegovina it

17 was totally the same whether we wrote in Latin or

18 Cyrillic script; is that not a fact?

19 A. Yes, I learned both scripts, the Cyrillic and the Latin

20 and I could use both.

21 Q. Yes, of course. So it is correct that for all of us,

22 the inhabitants of Bosnia-Herzegovina, both scripts were

23 equal and we all knew them and we used them; is that not

24 so?

25 A. As far as I know, I believe that all of these -- both

Page 6353

1 scripts were taught in the whole of Yugoslavia; whether

2 that is true you can also say.

3 Q. Okay, very well, but we are now speaking -- referring to

4 this nearer area where we lived. Very well, thank you.

5 Mr. Vukalo, you said that somewhere towards the end

6 of 1992, you were transferred from Celebici to Musala,

7 did you not?

8 A. On 9th December 1992 I was transferred to Musala, yes.

9 Q. In some time around January 1993, in the MUP of Konjic,

10 you again made a statement, did you not?

11 A. I gave so many statements at all sorts of places that

12 I really cannot recall them all or the places where

13 I gave them. I probably did.

14 Q. There in MUP, as you were making the statement, you were

15 not maltreated by anybody?

16 A. No, I was not. Not in the MUP. I was not maltreated

17 while making that statement.

18 Q. And you signed that statement as well?

19 A. Madam, I had to sign the statement lest I be again

20 treated with the same treatment, beating and so on, as

21 I have already described. I was afraid; my life was

22 threatened in my view.

23 Q. I will ask that the witness be shown this statement of

24 January 15th 1993 to see whether it is indeed his

25 signature. At the same time, I shall have a copy

Page 6354

1 submitted also to the Prosecutor and the judges?

2 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, may I raise a matter at this

3 time? Your Honours, the statement that I anticipate is

4 going to be shown to the witness is a statement that was

5 taken by the people, the very people that were holding

6 him captive. He has already said in his evidence that

7 he had to sign anything that was put in front of him, so

8 terrified was he of the circumstances in which he found

9 himself. Your Honours, under Rule 95 of the Rules of

10 the Tribunal, it is provided for that no evidence shall

11 be admissible if obtained by methods which cast

12 substantial doubt on its reliability, or if its

13 admission is anti-ethical or would seriously damage the

14 integrity of the proceedings.

15 In my submission, your Honour, this very document

16 falls exactly into that category, and, in my submission,

17 for the Tribunal to entertain any cross-examination in

18 relation to this document, it would have to be done in

19 such a way, in my submission, as to be consistent with

20 Rule 91, to be so categorised as a document that was

21 obtained in circumstances where the witness could not

22 freely and voluntarily provide the information that is

23 contained therein. He has also mentioned the fact that

24 at that stage, he signed practically anything -- he said

25 he would have to sign anything that was put in front of

Page 6355

1 him at that stage.

2 Your Honours, I am not objecting to a form of

3 cross-examination, provided there is no suggestion at

4 any stage that what is contained in the statement is in

5 any way true or correct. If it is not asserted by the

6 cross-examination that the contents of the statement are

7 true and correct, then I do not have any objection to

8 it, but if it is sought to challenge the credibility of

9 this witness through this document, then, having regard

10 to the circumstances under which it was obtained, I say

11 it offends Rule 95 and I object to it.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms Residovic, have you any reply to

13 that objection?

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, your Honours. It was in a similar way

15 that we conducted discussion before this Trial Chamber,

16 but I believe that now the court has in front of it

17 proof, evidence which are contrary to what my

18 distinguished colleague has just stated, namely we have

19 interviewed a member of the Commission as a witness of

20 the prosecution, and the prosecution side gave those

21 persons very high grade in terms of their professional

22 attitude and correct attitude in the way they were

23 taking those statements.

24 On the other hand, this witness, in answering the

25 prosecution's questions, clearly said that while he was

Page 6356

1 being held in the Musala prison, he made a statement --

2 first of all that he had not been maltreated there at

3 all; secondly that this statement in MUP, Konjic -- when

4 answering my question, he said that he did make it, that

5 everybody treated him correctly, that he had signed that

6 statement.

7 What the significance of the content of that

8 statement will be is something for the court to assess,

9 but these are all circumstances which warrant the

10 defence's presentation of this particular statement

11 given in Konjic to the witness to recognise his

12 signature, and that this statement should actually be

13 used for the purposes of defence, which is to say in

14 connection with the credibility of this witness.

15 I have established the basis for this particular

16 use of this statement, because we presented to the

17 witness these statements that he gave in Belgrade, that

18 he gave to the investigator of this Tribunal. I believe

19 all this will be quite sufficient for this Tribunal to

20 assess the credibility of this witness. Therefore

21 I move that these statements be given to the witness so

22 that he could recognise his signature and that they be

23 used for the purposes as evidence of the defence for the

24 purposes proposed by the defence in this procedure.

25 Normally, the defence will, in the stage of

Page 6357

1 presenting its own evidence, bring in other evidence to

2 corroborate these circumstances. It will be up to the

3 Tribunal to assign various degrees of credibility to

4 each such piece of evidence.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, my understanding of the

6 approach you have adopted is that you are impeaching the

7 credit of the witness by using two statements which he

8 has earlier made, the statement to the prosecution and

9 the statement which he made when he was in detention.

10 These are the things you are using in impeaching his

11 credit. What Mr. Niemann is objecting to is the validity

12 of using the statement made by a witness under

13 incarceration as inconsistent with Rule 95. I agree you

14 have argued that the prosecution has called as its

15 witness one of the members of the committee which had

16 taken such statements, but, notwithstanding that,

17 whether such statements are within the general penumbra

18 of Rule 95 is what Mr. Niemann is arguing about. But you

19 did appear to have responded to that aspect of it.

20 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Niemann, is it a rule that any statement made

21 by a detainee is treated to be as one obtained under

22 caution? Is it a rule that every statement has to be

23 taken in the light of the background in which it is

24 made?

25 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honours. Clearly a statement can be

Page 6358

1 taken from a witness in detention. The issue of

2 voluntariness becomes very important.

3 JUDGE JAN: That is my question. Supposing the defence

4 leaks evidence at some stage showing they were

5 voluntarily made then, it will have a handicap that this

6 statement was never shown to the witness.

7 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I would suggest that from what

8 the witness has already said --

9 JUDGE JAN: Let us mark it for identification purposes. If

10 the defence can lead evidence to show it was obtained

11 voluntarily, then of course we can look at it; otherwise

12 we will just exclude it from evidence. At this stage,

13 maybe show it for the purpose of identification. Does

14 it bear your signature? That is all.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us hear him reply completely to the

16 circumstances in which the statement was made.

17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours have heard extensive evidence

18 about the conditions -- does your Honour want me to

19 address this issue or just put the statement to the

20 witness? I am sorry, I misunderstood what your Honour

21 was saying.

22 JUDGE JAN: There is no rule that any statement made under

23 detention has to be excluded.

24 MR. NIEMANN: I am not suggesting that, your Honour.

25 JUDGE JAN: At this stage, show it for purposes of

Page 6359

1 identification; does it bear your signature or not? It

2 is for the defence to show whether this statement was

3 made voluntarily. At this stage if the defence is

4 denied that opportunity, later on if it has found some

5 statements were made voluntarily, then your objection

6 will be: the witness was never shown this statement.

7 MR. NIEMANN: I have no objection to that, your Honours.

8 There was only one other matter I wanted to correct. It

9 is not strictly speaking correct to say that the witness

10 was not mistreated in the Musala camp.

11 JUDGE JAN: The statements probably would be viewed with

12 some suspicion, but the defence can remove that

13 suspicion if it is possible for them to lead evidence to

14 that effect.

15 MR. NIEMANN: So long as they attempt to do that and are

16 successful in doing that, then I will have no

17 objection. Certainly I submit that they should go at

18 least through the process of establishing voluntariness

19 before they do so. I might just add, your Honours, that

20 mere signature, of course, as your Honours know, is not

21 sufficient to establish voluntariness.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: I should like to ask the witness to

23 identify his signature, that this statement be taken for

24 purposes of identification, I do not wish to repeat that

25 the Prosecutor asks every witness whether any

Page 6360

1 proceedings had been instituted against him when such

2 proof is offered and we have objections of this kind, so

3 I should like to ask now that the witness recognise his

4 signature and the defence will tender this as evidence

5 after having also manifested other --

6 A. I just have to say something. I gave the statement in

7 MUP Konjic several times. I do not know whether you are

8 referring to that statement. Two days before giving

9 that statement, I was subjected to a mock execution.

10 I can describe how it was: we went to the hill at Prenj

11 to dig trenches, and the soldiers up there on those

12 positions -- I believe their names are there, the name

13 of their Muslim formation was the Muderizi -- they were

14 there on this hill at Prenj and as I was digging the

15 trench, please let me describe this, this soldier came

16 up to me and he asked me as I was digging what my name

17 was. I normally stood to attention, I had to. I told

18 him what my name was, then three or four more of them

19 came. Everything I am saying can be confirmed by Tomic

20 Bozo, by Dordic Zdravko, also camp inmates, the latter

21 one being from the village of Bradina. Let me please

22 finish --

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is not my question. If your Honours

24 wish to hear this witness --

25 A. Please let me finish before you show me the statement.

Page 6361

1 One of those soldiers told me to face him, turn around

2 and face him. He raised his rifle, he repeated, I think

3 it was a PAP, it was an automatic rifle, I am not sure.

4 Normally I was extremely scared. He shot from the

5 rifle, of course I was terrified. They started

6 laughing. One of the soldiers said: "That was a

7 manoeuvring bullet in the rifle." I, of course, was not

8 aware of that, I thought my end had come, and I was

9 subjected to this mock execution several times. I did

10 not know that it would be a mock execution. This

11 particular incident took place two days prior to my

12 making the statement in the SUP of Konjic. I gave many

13 statements in the SUP of Konjic, I do not know whether

14 you are referring to that particular one.

15 Q. I should like to show you this statement.

16 A. I was afraid I would be subjected to the same kind of

17 treatment as the one I was given in Celebici which

18 I really took very hard because I would be beaten three

19 times per day.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the witness has now been going on

21 for three or four minutes without one question being

22 asked. He has just decided to start making statements

23 to the court. Part of that is because we have -- when

24 there is a legal objection and the lawyers talk about

25 that legal objection, we do it in a way that the witness

Page 6362

1 can hear what we are saying and then the witness feels

2 like he somehow has to engage himself in the legal

3 issues that we are talking about. That is what he is

4 doing now. He has decided to launch off in giving

5 information that nobody asked him about; nobody asked

6 him a question that caused him to give us all this

7 information just now. If he has been asked a proper

8 question, fine, let him answer it properly, but the

9 court must control the situation of witnesses just

10 popping off without a question being asked. That is not

11 appropriate.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think counsel has a better

13 advantage to assisting the court than the witness. No

14 counsel has that.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Have you taken a look; did you see your

16 signature? Is that your signature, Mr. Vukalo?

17 A. It seems so. It seems that this is what I sign.

18 Q. Is this a signature identical to the one which you

19 affixed to the statement that you made to the

20 investigators of the International Tribunal?

21 A. I had to.

22 Q. I am only asking: is this your signature?

23 A. If they had told me that it was night and it was day

24 I would have had to say it was.

25 Q. I am not talking about the content, I am talking about

Page 6363

1 the signature. You have recognised your signature?

2 A. Yes, but I have to stress the circumstances under which

3 I signed that.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: I believe that the witness has identified

5 his signature, and at this moment I move that this

6 particular statement only be accepted as a statement

7 which has been identified, and at this moment I propose

8 it as defence exhibit --

9 JUDGE JAN: Just that it is signed, because he disowns the

10 contents altogether.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

12 Thank you, Mr. Vukalo. Just a couple of brief

13 questions. You know Ivica Buric?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You saw Ivica Buric in Celebici, did you not?

16 A. Ivica Buric is one of the first Croats in the village of

17 Pokojiste to put on a camouflage uniform. I saw him in

18 Pokojiste when I was in Branko Jozic's house when I was

19 actually taken to that house and had to lie against the

20 wall.

21 Q. You also saw him in Celebici?

22 A. I did not say that I saw him in Celebici.

23 Q. Is it true that Ivica Buric, on one occasion, filmed you

24 in Celebici?

25 A. The one in Celebici, in camp. I thought you were

Page 6364

1 referring to Ivica Buric from the village of Pokojiste.

2 No, that is Ivica Kozora. I got mixed up. I know Ivica

3 Buric from the camp, yes, when I was in number 6. I do,

4 I remember him well. I will never forget when he

5 brought this camera. When I was beaten like I have

6 never been beaten in my life before and he filmed that.

7 Q. Then you were given to read something, were you not, and

8 you would not and then Ivica Buric and Dedic beat you up

9 so viciously that you will never forget it?

10 A. It was not Ivica Buric that beat me up, it was Zenga and

11 Osmo Dedic that beat me up. Ivica Buric was filming

12 this. I was totally naked and they hit me with a

13 soldier's belt; Zenga and Dedic Osmo did. I was all

14 black and blue from my heels up to the top of my head.

15 That is the way I went back -- that is the state in

16 which I went back to number 6.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very well, Mr. Vukalo. I have no further

18 questions for you. Thank you.

19 Thank you, your Honours. I have completed my

20 cross-examination.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any other

22 cross-examination?

23 MR. OLUJIC: Yes, your Honours.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Before you start, let me give this

25 caution. Mr. Ackerman has just finished his comment on

Page 6365

1 the supervision of the Trial Chamber by asking the Trial

2 Chamber to tell a witness to stop saying certain

3 things. As far as this Trial Chamber is concerned, when

4 a witness is making a statement and saying things which

5 are relevant to questions asked to him, or are related

6 to them, I think this witness's statement is entitled to

7 as much respect as to what counsel might be able to

8 offer. I do not think it is the place of counsel to

9 tell the Trial Chamber what to accept, except in a more

10 formal situation where objection is raised as to that

11 part of the statement. I do not think counsel is

12 entitled to a better advantage, as I said before, in

13 assisting the Trial Chamber than as any other witness

14 who is entitled to assist the Trial Chamber in getting

15 to the justice of the matter we have before us. So you

16 can continue.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, let me just say, I think perhaps

18 I was misunderstood. My complaint and my objection was

19 this: that when counsel are engaged in arguing a legal

20 point, I think it is inappropriate for the witness to

21 participate in that argument by offering his own

22 opinions by factual information or otherwise as to how

23 the outcome of that legal issue should be involved. As

24 far as what this Chamber does with regard to the witness

25 answering questions, that is absolutely this Chamber's

Page 6366

1 prerogative. I am just objecting that witnesses should

2 not be permitted to engage in the legal arguments that

3 are going on between counsel and should remain silent

4 until that is completed and another question is put to

5 him. That was the force of what I was trying to

6 suggest. I apparently did it inartfully and

7 I apologise.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I have told you exactly what the

9 position should be. I do not think anyone in this Trial

10 Chamber understood what the witness was saying as

11 relevant to what was going on.

12 Now Mr. Olujic, you may proceed with your

13 cross-examination.

14 Cross-examined by MR. OLUJIC

15 Q. Thank you, your Honours.

16 Good morning, Mr. Vukalo.

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. Before we start with my cross-examination, will you

19 please bear in mind the warnings given yesterday

20 regarding the technical aspect of the proceedings and

21 that is that you should wait for my question to be

22 interpreted, and only when you hear the English

23 interpretation you should answer, so that everyone can

24 follow our conversation without us engaging in a

25 dialogue. Have you understood me?

Page 6367

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Vukalo, in the course of your direct

3 examination, you said that you knew Mr. Pavo Mucic or

4 Zdravko Mucic, and that he would be away up to as many

5 as ten days from the camp; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Tell me, please, did Mr. Mucic beat you ever?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Was Mr. Mucic ever present when you were beaten?

10 A. I never saw him, but I said that as the commander of the

11 camp he should have known what was happening.

12 Q. Please, I have noticed that in your wish to assist the

13 court -- you are a witness here and I understand you.

14 I also have understanding because of the terrible

15 experiences you have gone through, but I appeal to you

16 in the interest of efficiency that when I ask you

17 questions, will you please answer them, only those

18 questions that I put to you.

19 A. Very well.

20 Q. If you act that way, you will make it easier for both of

21 us to get through this quickly. Thank you, Mr. Vukalo.

22 Mr. Vukalo, you said that Mr. Mucic wore a uniform?

23 A. Yes, he would come in uniform as well.

24 Q. Did you see any sign of rank on those uniforms?

25 A. I do not remember.

Page 6368

1 Q. Does that mean that there were none?

2 A. I cannot claim that there were any, nor that there were

3 none; I just do not remember.

4 Q. Was Mr. Mucic an officer?

5 A. As far as I know, he held the position of camp

6 commander.

7 Q. I am asking you whether he was an officer; you know what

8 an officer is. When you went to the JNA, you know what

9 officers are?

10 A. I do not know.

11 Q. When you say that he wore a uniform, the uniform of

12 which army?

13 A. A camouflage uniform, I do not remember any insignia.

14 He never had a cap on his head.

15 Q. Was it the kind of uniform that more or less all persons

16 were wearing who were involved in one way or another in

17 the operations on all three sides, simply a camouflage

18 uniform?

19 A. He was wearing the same kind of uniform as the guards in

20 Celebici, or some of the guards, the same kind as the

21 guards, camouflage uniforms.

22 Q. Do you know Davor Bendzo?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Was Davor Bendzo a friend of Mr. Mucic's?

25 A. I think he was; at least while I was in the camp he

Page 6369

1 would talk to him outside and inside.

2 Q. Would you be so kind as to tell me: you spent quite a

3 long time in the camp, until December 1992, I mean

4 Celebici camp. During that time, while you were

5 detained in the camp, was there any raising of the

6 flag every morning in the camp?

7 A. While I was in number 6, I could not see that anyway, so

8 I do not know. I do not know at all. I cannot say

9 anything about that.

10 Q. Thank you. Did you ever hear the anthem being played?

11 A. I cannot say anything about that either, I do not know.

12 Q. Did you ever see any formal lining up of troops within

13 the grounds?

14 A. Yes, when the oath was taken by the Muslim army.

15 I remember when Zenga and Dedic Osmo took my clothes off

16 and beat me with belts and Ivica Buric, whom I have just

17 mentioned, was filming me and on the wall to the right

18 where I was being beaten, there were I do not know how

19 many troops who were there to take their oath of

20 allegiance and they were applauding and laughing.

21 I know that this taking of the oath did take place

22 within the camp grounds because we could hear it. We

23 could hear it in hangar number 6.

24 Q. Was this in the part where the troops were or where you

25 were as prisoners?

Page 6370

1 A. At that point in time, I was in hangar number 6 and we

2 heard and later learnt that they were -- that the Muslim

3 army was taking an oath of allegiance and we could hear

4 the music too, but I did not see it actually taking

5 place. It must have been nearby somewhere, near the

6 hangar.

7 Q. Tell me, of course, from your direct knowledge whether

8 you ever witnessed any quarrels among the guards?

9 A. The guards having disputes among themselves? I did not

10 see or hear it myself, but I heard from other guards, as

11 if apparently Zenga and Delic had a fight over

12 something, but I did not hear much about it. I heard

13 this from other guards and from other detainees. There

14 were some stories to that effect, that they had had a

15 quarrel, why and how I do not know, and that after that,

16 Zenga was absent from the camp for a time.

17 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I object to these answers. He

18 says he does not know, he found out from people in the

19 camp, that he has no personal knowledge about this

20 occurrence, and he keeps going on. I object to no

21 personal knowledge.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you have any other questions to

23 ask?

24 MR. OLUJIC: Yes, your Honour.

25 Tell me, Mr. Vukalo, the different kinds of

Page 6371

1 uniforms that you saw in the camp.

2 A. I saw the camouflage uniform was most widespread.

3 Q. Were there uniforms of the TO, territorial defence, the

4 MUP, the military police, the HVO?

5 A. How do I know? I was most worried over myself and I was

6 terrified and thinking only how I could avoid beatings,

7 so I did not really take much notice of the uniforms,

8 but I did see the camouflage uniforms. I even saw the

9 signs of the moon and stars on a cap called the fez.

10 Q. So there were all kinds of uniforms?

11 A. I cannot say there were all kinds. Camouflage uniforms

12 were most widespread. There may have been others, but

13 I really do not know.

14 Q. Were you a member of the communist party, the League of

15 Communists of Yugoslavia, up to 1990?

16 A. Not until 1990. I was a member in 1986 or 1985, but by

17 1987 I stopped being a member.

18 Q. From your personal data, we see that you are now living

19 in Samac?

20 A. I am not living in Samac, I do not have a place to live

21 really nor do I have any permanent employment. My house

22 was burnt down, I have no property whatever; wherever

23 I can find a job I live, and that is how I am making

24 ends meet. Sometimes in Serbia, somewhere or anywhere

25 I can find a job, that is where I live, so I do not have

Page 6372

1 any permanent residence or any house or flat or

2 anything. Until something changes, I suppose one day it

3 will. I had everything; unfortunately it was burned

4 down. I have been destroyed financially, in every

5 respect.

6 Q. Have the authorities in the place where you are living

7 assisted you in finding a job? Have they given you any

8 material relief, any assistance?

9 A. No, none.

10 Q. Do you talk with the refugees and misplaced persons and

11 others from Celebici?

12 A. There are no refugees from Celebici. Let me repeat

13 again that I do not live in one particular place on a

14 permanent basis; I just look where I can find a job and

15 I stay there for a while and then move on with my wife

16 and child.

17 Q. In the course of your direct examination, you said that

18 there were massive beatings, as you described them, mass

19 beatings, and that on one occasion, all the prisoners in

20 hangar number 6 were beaten; is that true?

21 A. There were several of these mass beatings, I cannot say

22 exactly how often they occurred, they were not too

23 often, but they did occur several times and I remember

24 that we were all beaten when the International Red Cross

25 had registered us and left; then we were all given a

Page 6373

1 hiding. If necessary, I can describe it.

2 Q. No thank you?

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the Trial Chamber will now rise

4 and reassemble at 12.00.

5 (11.30 am)

6 (A short break)

7 (12.00 pm)

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Olujic, you are still

9 cross-examining, are you?

10 MR. OLUJIC: Yes, your Honour. Thank you.

11 Mr. Vukalo, let us continue this

12 cross-examination. We will be through soon, so I would

13 like to remind you, as I did at the beginning, to be as

14 concise as possible and to answer the questions put to

15 you, as you did, more or less, in the first part of my

16 cross-examination.

17 Mr. Vukalo, in the course of your

18 examination-in-chief, you mentioned Donje Selo, which is

19 close to your village, is it not?

20 A. Which testimony, here?

21 Q. Yesterday.

22 A. Donje Selo is about three kilometres from the beginning

23 of my village and I was at the far end of this village

24 in the hamlet of Vukalo.

25 Q. What did you say about Donje Selo, could you tell me

Page 6374

1 please? You mentioned Donje Selo; that is why I am

2 asking you and now you have repeated.

3 A. Yes, I know where Donje Selo is.

4 Q. You also said that it is about 3 kilometres from your

5 village.

6 A. Cerici and Donje Selo are one next to the other and from

7 there to the beginning of my village is about 3

8 kilometres.

9 Q. You also mentioned in the course of the direct

10 examination, and when I say that I am referring to what

11 you had said yesterday in court -- you said, with

12 reference to Donje Selo, that they were organised for

13 defence, but not very well; is that not so?

14 A. I do not recall -- actually I do not know whether they

15 were organised at all. I just do not know.

16 Q. Do you know whether the villagers of Donje Selo had any

17 weapons?

18 A. When I was in the Celebici camp, there were detainees

19 from Donje Selo, though I do not know much about it, but

20 I heard that there was some weapons that were

21 surrendered and I heard this from the detainees, but

22 I do not know much myself.

23 Q. Do you know what kind of weapons they had?

24 A. I heard in Celebici camp that they had a few, I do not

25 know how many, a few automatic rifles, M48. How many,

Page 6375

1 I do not know.

2 Q. Was any kind of village guard duty organised there?

3 A. Perhaps they did have guard duty, but I do not know

4 anything about that.

5 Q. Will you tell me please whether you know somebody known

6 as Focak? He was a guard?

7 A. Yes, you have just reminded me. He was known as Focak

8 and he worked in the prison in Foca. He was some kind

9 of investigator there, I think. Whether he was or not,

10 I do not know. He too was one of the ones who

11 interrogated us. He was a guard, but he also did the

12 interrogations for a time.

13 Q. What did he interrogate you about?

14 A. As far as I can recall, but I cannot remember too well,

15 how I was apprehended and brought to the camp, to the

16 building and then they asked whether I knew -- whether

17 anybody was armed in Bjelovcina, whether anybody was in

18 hiding there. That is as much as I can remember.

19 Q. And what was your answer to Focak?

20 A. I do not know exactly what I said, but I think that

21 I said that I did not know whether there were any people

22 there in Bjelovcina. I said that most of us men had

23 been arrested and detained in Konjic at the camp there

24 and in Celebici, that most of the people from the

25 village of Bjelovcina. All the younger men were

Page 6376

1 incarcerated in Celebici and in Konjic.

2 Q. During the interrogation by Focak, was any coercion used

3 against you? Were you physically mistreated?

4 A. Before I was interrogated, many other detainees were

5 interrogated.

6 Q. I am asking about you.

7 A. But let me say this. Many others were interrogated like

8 Vukasin Mr.kajic. He was beaten and hit both when he was

9 taken there and during the questioning, according to

10 what Vukasin Mr.kajic told us when he came back, so he

11 was beaten also on the way back.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Witness, the question is directed to

13 you. It is not about other detainees. Counsel is

14 asking whether you were mistreated.

15 A. When I was taken to Focak, I was slapped and hit.

16 MR. OLUJIC: Did Focak mistreat you during the interrogation;

17 that is all I am asking.

18 A. He did not.

19 Q. Thank you. Would you be kind enough, you said during

20 your testimony that your village had been shelled; is

21 that right?

22 A. As together with the other people from my hamlet and

23 with the women and children.

24 Q. I am asking you whether your village was shelled, as you

25 said during your testimony?

Page 6377

1 A. I heard two shells somewhere at the beginning of the

2 village of Bjelovcina, in the direction of Donje Selo,

3 but I cannot say anything with certainty about that, but

4 I know that Jovo Gotovac was killed and Uros Djurica or

5 were killed by those shells. I learnt about that at the

6 Celebici camp.

7 Q. Who told you that?

8 A. The detainees from the village of Bjelovcina who were

9 brought in later.

10 Q. Can you give me the name and surname of those people who

11 told you that these people were killed by the shells

12 that fell on your village, if you know?

13 A. Yes, I do know. I was told by Dusan Tomic, Ranko Tomic

14 and some others.

15 Q. Thank you. Will you tell me, please: in your village

16 did you have a village leader, so to speak?

17 A. You mean a military leader or commander? No, I am not

18 aware of that.

19 Q. But how is that possible? A war was in the making, you

20 have no weapons, and you do not even have anybody who

21 might be in charge of the organisation. Maybe you do

22 not know the name of that person, or you are excluding

23 the possibility that there was a leader of that kind.

24 A. I am not aware at all that there were any leaders. We

25 did not have educated people in the village actually,

Page 6378

1 and I really do not see who could have assumed such a

2 role.

3 Q. So your answer is that there were no such people?

4 A. As far as I know, no.

5 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Mr. Vukalo. I pass the witness.

6 Thank you, your Honours.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you, Mr. Olujic.

8 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, if I could again have a little bit

9 of time to get wired up?

10 May it please the court.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.

12 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN

13 Q. Thank you, your Honour. Good afternoon, sir.

14 A. Good afternoon.

15 Q. My name is Tom Moran, I am an attorney and I represent a

16 man named Hazim Delic. I am going to ask you some

17 questions. If at any time you do not understand one of

18 the questions I ask, will you please stop me and ask me

19 to repeat it or rephrase it, because frankly I do not

20 sometimes phrase questions as well as I probably

21 should. Will you do that for me, sir?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Sir, would you please also listen to my questions and

24 answer the question that I ask you? If you do, this

25 will go a whole lot quicker.

Page 6379

1 A. Very well.

2 Q. Okay, sir. One other thing, you have been very, very

3 good about this so far during both your direct and your

4 cross-examinations, but sometimes witnesses get into

5 conversation, people want to nod their heads, yes or

6 no. If you look round the courtroom you see two ladies

7 with strange looking machines; they are called court

8 reporters. They have to write down everything we say.

9 They cannot write down a nod. If you say yes or no when

10 that is appropriate, could you do that also, sir. Then

11 also sir, if at any time you want to stop and think for

12 a second, if you feel like you are confused or something

13 like that, let me know and we will work it out. Okay

14 sir? Can we do that?

15 A. Very well.

16 Q. Okay, sir, the first thing I would like to ask you about

17 is this: do you recall an incident some time when you

18 were in the camp, Celebici, probably in July, when some

19 Arab journalists came to the camp?

20 A. Yes, I do recall.

21 Q. Sir, tell the judges what occurred while those Arab

22 journalists were in the camp.

23 A. When those Arab journalists came, we were glad, hoping

24 and thinking that somebody had come to change our

25 plight, to alleviate our suffering. However when they

Page 6380

1 visited hangar number 6, we were beaten and hit. I was

2 one of those who were beaten, I remember that, and

3 Milovan Kuljanin had to go on his knees and pray, some

4 kind of prayer, the Muslim prayer. I know that we were

5 hit and beaten.

6 Q. Sir, did the Arab journalists film this beating?

7 A. They were filming something, but I do not know whether

8 they filmed this in particular, so I was mainly

9 concerned with myself. I did see them filming

10 something, I do not know whether they filmed that

11 particular incident.

12 Q. In fact, some of these members of the TV crew actually

13 took part in the beatings, did they not? They beat you,

14 for instance, did they not?

15 A. No, not the members of the team, the members of the

16 crew; they did not beat me, but the guards did.

17 Q. They made some of the detainees make confessions in

18 front of the cameras, like Rajko Djordjic, did they

19 not? Did not the guards and the TV crew make him admit

20 in front of the cameras that they committed all kinds of

21 crimes against Muslims?

22 A. I do not remember what you said about Rajko Djordjic.

23 I was just saying, sir, that I was worried for my own

24 safety, so I did not dare look much. We all realised,

25 actually, that these were not the people that we had

Page 6381

1 thought that we could be frank with, and tell them in

2 Cerici what was troubling us.

3 Q. In fact, the bottom line is this TV crew, these

4 journalists, were basically bad people, were they not?

5 A. Of course, since they watched us being beaten and some

6 of them were even laughing. They were not good people

7 from my point of view and from the point of view of the

8 other detainees.

9 Q. Sir, let me talk about another event which I do not

10 think you have talked about on either your direct or any

11 of the cross. Do you remember back some time in August

12 my client Mr. Delic came into hangar 6 with a list of

13 names of people to be released; do you remember that

14 occurring?

15 A. Could you please explain it a little? To be released

16 home, or what, if anybody had a home.

17 Q. What I am saying is: some time in August 1992, after the

18 Red Cross visit, Mr. Delic came into hangar 6 and read

19 out a list of names of people who were to be released

20 from custody to go about their business, were not to be

21 transferred to another camp but actually to be sent home

22 if they had homes, or just released. Do you recall

23 that?

24 A. Celebici was not a detention centre, it was a camp. At

25 least that is what I think. There were many occasions

Page 6382

1 when some detainees went to Konjic, to the sports hall

2 at Musala, or a fewer number were released, to Donje

3 Selo, where many of them -- where many of the

4 inhabitants of Bjelovcina were put up in Donje Selo, in

5 some kind of a house arrest.

6 Q. That is what I am talking about, the first time that

7 occurred, sir. Do you remember Mr. Delic calling out

8 Branko Sudar's name?

9 A. I cannot recall that. Perhaps, I just cannot remember.

10 Q. Okay. If you do not remember, that is fine, sir. That

11 is no problem at all.

12 Sir, let me ask you this: who have you talked with

13 and discussed with what you are going to testify about

14 today?

15 A. What do you mean? Where?

16 Q. For instance, since you came to The Hague, outside of

17 the courtroom, have you discussed your testimony with

18 anyone?

19 A. I spoke with Mr. Grant, the Prosecutor. I do not think

20 I spoke to anyone else.

21 Q. How long was the conversation with Mr. Grant? By the

22 way, just for the record, that would be Mr. Niemann, your

23 Honour.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is right.

25 MR. MORAN: I spoke with Mr. Grant; I cannot tell you exactly

Page 6383

1 how long it took.

2 MR. MORAN: Was it a long time?

3 A. Twice, I think, two or three times.

4 Q. Was it a long time or a short time?

5 A. The last conversation we had was a very brief one. It

6 was not long.

7 Q. That was the one yesterday when he asked you if you

8 would agree not to have a television interview; is that

9 the one you are talking about, sir?

10 A. Yes, there was that, and also I was in a room here for

11 maybe 15 minutes.

12 Q. Those were the two times you discussed your testimony

13 with Mr. Niemann?

14 A. And I spoke before that -- I think it was Tuesday or

15 Wednesday -- no Wednesday. I spoke to him I think three

16 times, but yesterday it was very brief, in the morning.

17 Q. How about the other conversations? Were they long

18 conversations, sir, or were they short conversations?

19 A. Apart from the one yesterday, the others were a bit

20 longer.

21 Q. During those conversations, did Mr. Niemann go over your

22 various statements with you?

23 A. Yes, he put some questions to me, the gentleman, and

24 I answered to the best of my recollection.

25 Q. Basically he went over with you what he was going to ask

Page 6384

1 so you would not be surprised in the courtroom; is that

2 not right?

3 A. Yes, something like that.

4 Q. That is fine; all lawyers do that, sir. He went over

5 both your statement given to the Office of the

6 Prosecutor and your statement given to the examining

7 magistrate in Belgrade, did he not? If you know.

8 A. I know only that he put some questions to me, like the

9 ones he did yesterday. We covered those questions.

10 Q. Okay, that is fine. Did he at any point during these

11 conversations point out to you that some of the written

12 statements might have had some inconsistencies in them,

13 between the two different statements?

14 A. No. I just said that I would tell the truth, of course,

15 as best as I can remember. I cannot remember

16 everything, and the memories are most unpleasant, so

17 I have done my best to forget many things and I have

18 forgotten such things as dates and some names, but, of

19 course, I will never be able to forget everything.

20 Q. In fact, Mr. Vukalo, when you were giving your statement

21 -- let us talk about the one in Belgrade, to the

22 examining magistrate. You wanted to tell the truth to

23 him, did you not?

24 A. When I was making my statement to the judge in Belgrade

25 in that committee, the court for the investigation of

Page 6385

1 war crimes, this was the first time I had spoken to

2 anyone about my suffering. I was terribly distressed,

3 restless, pitiful, desperate. I had been left without

4 anything in the world; all my material property, all my

5 means had gone.

6 Q. Yes, sir, I understand that. You have said that

7 before. Sir, when you were making that statement to

8 that examining magistrate in Belgrade, you wanted to

9 tell him the truth, did you not?

10 A. I know that I spoke with interruptions, it was not

11 connected, it did not make much sense. Believe me, I do

12 not myself know what I said. When I was exchanged after

13 my detention, I did not speak to anyone for a month

14 about that.

15 Q. Yes, sir, and when you talked to the examining

16 magistrate in the district court in Belgrade, sir, you

17 wanted to tell him the truth, did you not?

18 A. I repeat again: I was desperate, trying to remember

19 something that I wanted to forget, it was all

20 disconnected, I was sobbing, I do not myself know what

21 I said.

22 Q. Sir, when you were talking to that examining magistrate

23 in the district court of Belgrade, you wanted to tell

24 him the truth, did you not?

25 A. Look, we can go on like this until tomorrow.

Page 6386

1 Q. Yes, sir. I ask a simple yes or no question, sir.

2 Either you wanted to tell him the truth or you did not.

3 It was what you wanted to do and only you know what you

4 wanted to do. Did you want to tell him the truth or did

5 you not?

6 A. I did tell the truth, but it was not linked together, it

7 was with interruptions and what is stated in this

8 statement from the committee from the court for the

9 investigation of war crimes, how they put it down, that

10 is not the way I said it.

11 Q. Yes, sir and sir -- let us talk about how this was done,

12 okay, how this statement was taken by this investigating

13 magistrate in Belgrade. Did anyone threaten you before

14 the statement was taken?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did anyone beat you before the statement was taken?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did anyone beat you while the statement was being taken?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did anyone threaten you while the statement was being

21 taken?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay, sir. After the statement was taken, did you have

24 the right to read it before you signed it?

25 A. I was in a terrible condition, so that -- believe me, as

Page 6387

1 far as I recall, I do not think I even read it. I do

2 not remember, I do not remember reading it.

3 Q. Okay, so if there is any mistakes in there or anything

4 that is wrong in there, it is because that investigating

5 magistrate put it down wrong; is that your position,

6 sir?

7 A. I was making this with interruptions, without any much

8 sense, and maybe the person who was taking down the

9 notes misunderstood me.

10 Q. So if there is anything that is not true in there, it is

11 because the person who took it down, that investigating

12 magistrate, just was not doing his job properly, that is

13 your position; am I correct in that, sir?

14 A. No, that is not correct, but I was sobbing and crying

15 and I made interruptions. I do not know how long those

16 interruptions were, but it was really a hard time I was

17 going through. It was the first time I was making a

18 confession about what we had been through, I personally

19 and the other people in the camp, so that it was awfully

20 hard for me. I felt miserable.

21 Q. Yes, sir, I understand that, and so if there was

22 anything that is incorrect in that statement it is not

23 because you told the magistrate something that was not

24 factually correct, but rather because the magistrate

25 wrote it down wrong; is that basically what you are

Page 6388

1 saying, sir?

2 A. Probably he took down things but not exactly in the way

3 I wanted to put it. I may have said it that way, but

4 I have no idea what I said now.

5 Q. That is fine, sir. Let us go on to the statement you

6 gave to the Office of the Prosecutor, the one you gave

7 in the Tribunal's office in Belgrade. Let me make sure

8 I understand how this occurred. You went into a room

9 with Mr. MacLeod and there was an interpreter there,

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. MacLeod would ask you a question and it would be

13 interpreted into Serbian for you, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And then the interpreter would tell him in English --

16 A. As far as I can recall, that is the way it was.

17 Q. And then the interpreter would tell him in English what

18 you said and he would write it down, right?

19 A. Yes, I think that is the way it was.

20 Q. And then at the very end, the interpreter read you the

21 entire statement in Serbian, right? Do you remember

22 that?

23 A. Believe me, I do not.

24 Q. Okay. You had the right to make any corrections you

25 wanted to in that statement, did you not?

Page 6389

1 A. I was crying then also after I had finished giving that

2 statement. I do not know, I think I did not put

3 anything in it. There could have been anything in the

4 statement. I do not recall inserting anything

5 afterwards.

6 Q. I am not asking you whether you made any corrections,

7 sir, I am just asking you whether you had the chance to

8 if you had wanted to.

9 A. Yes, probably I had a chance, but I do not remember

10 doing it.

11 Q. Nobody mistreated you before you gave that statement,

12 did they?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Mr. MacLeod did not threaten you?

15 A. No, he did not.

16 Q. The interpreter did not threaten you, did he? Actually,

17 I think it was a she. They did not threaten you?

18 A. It was a he.

19 Q. It was a he, okay. The interpreter did not threaten

20 you, did he?

21 A. No, he did not.

22 Q. Neither one of them mistreated you before or during the

23 giving of that statement, did they?

24 A. No, they did not.

25 Q. So if there is anything that is factually incorrect in

Page 6390

1 that statement, it is because either the interpreter or

2 Mr. MacLeod did not write it down right; is that your

3 position, sir?

4 A. Regarding some scenes which I described which I was very

5 distressed to recall, I asked them to stop, so we

6 stopped and then continued again afterwards, so I am not

7 quite sure what I stated then. I was describing these

8 scenes which really were distressful to me.

9 Q. You wanted to tell Mr. MacLeod the truth, did you not?

10 A. What I was saying to him, I told him -- I am not quite

11 sure myself what I told him, but, as I said, I was very

12 shaken.

13 Q. I understand that, sir. What you told Mr. MacLeod was,

14 to be best of your knowledge, the truth, right?

15 A. What I told the gentleman -- I told him to the best of

16 my recollection of those scenes and when I came across

17 in my memory a scene which really made me feel wretched,

18 and in fact that was the first time that I was giving a

19 statement, something like a statement, to someone

20 holding such an important office. I had never been in a

21 court before. I had never been in a courtroom before.

22 It was something for me -- something which seemed quite

23 awesome to me. Until then I had never been in such

24 circumstances.

25 Q. Except, of course, when you gave your statement to the

Page 6391

1 investigating magistrate in Belgrade.

2 A. Yes, but what I did in Belgrade, the statement I made in

3 a simple-looking room, so I was not, how shall I put

4 it -- there were not so many apparati in there and all

5 these devices. It was simple.

6 Q. Yes, sir, I understand. If you look around this

7 courtroom with all the computer terminals, it looks like

8 Star Wars, and I understand that. It is unusual for all

9 of us to be around this, so I understand how you are

10 feeling.

11 Sir, in your statement to the Office of the

12 Prosecutor, if there is something in there that is

13 factually wrong, that would be because Mr. MacLeod or the

14 interpreter made a mistake; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, I have already stated I was not exactly coherent.

16 I was interrupting myself all the time. How the

17 gentleman who was doing the interpretation did his job,

18 I do not know, I cannot tell. I do not remember many of

19 the things which I stated myself. I only remember some.

20 Q. What I am getting at, sir, is: if there is something in

21 your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor that is

22 factually incorrect, it is not because you told them

23 something wrong, it is that they got it down wrong; is

24 that correct?

25 A. Maybe when I spoke in this interrupted fashion, maybe

Page 6392

1 that was the way it appeared. I do not know how the

2 gentleman interpreted it.

3 Q. So if there is something that is factually wrong in your

4 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, it is not

5 because you told them something wrong but because they

6 put it down wrong; is that your position, sir?

7 A. I am saying again what I said there. I remember some of

8 the things I said there and I do not remember other

9 things. I spoke in an interrupted way; there were many

10 pauses and I do not know how the gentleman interpreted

11 it.

12 Q. Let me give you an example, sir, okay? Other lawyers

13 have already talked about this. You testified on your

14 direct examination that you and the people that were

15 captured by the Muslims with you did not have any

16 weapons. Do you remember testifying to that on direct?

17 A. What I said was not that I was captured but that

18 I approached them with a group of women and children and

19 old people, with my sick mother and my brother, coming

20 from this hamlet, the people from this hamlet where

21 I lived, Vukalo, and we approached the village of

22 Kralupi. We were surprised, we were afraid, we did not

23 know what was happening.

24 Q. Yes, sir, but what I am getting at, sir, is this: you

25 testified that, however you got into the custody of the

Page 6393

1 Muslim and the Croats, neither you nor anyone with you

2 had any weapons. Do you remember testifying to that

3 fact?

4 A. Let me first say that I was not arrested at all, that

5 I came up to them with a group of women, children, and

6 my neighbours from this hamlet and as for weapons, I did

7 not have any weapons.

8 Q. Nobody with you had any either, did they?

9 A. I and my brother were carrying my sick mother, and we

10 were not together within a space of 10 or 15 metres. We

11 were scattered every which way; there was Zorka Vukalo,

12 an elderly woman. She was very sick, she was also being

13 carried. The children were crying, the women were

14 scared and there was a long drawn-out column.

15 Q. Yes, sir, and among all these scared women and crying

16 children, and the other men that were with you, you

17 testified on direct examination that there were no

18 weapons in that group. Do you recall that? I am just

19 asking you whether you recall testifying about that or

20 not?

21 A. As far as I know, there were no weapons. I do not

22 recall there were any weapons.

23 Q. That is what I was trying to get to. If we had gone

24 right to that, we would have saved some time. I am just

25 pointing out something in your statement to the Office

Page 6394

1 of the Prosecutor. I will read it out to you and then

2 I am going to ask you a question about it, okay?

3 According to the Office of the Prosecutor's statement,

4 you said:

5 "We surrendered about 100 metres from Kralupi to

6 Amir and we gave up the two rifles we had kept to

7 protect ourselves."

8 Take my word for it, that is in the statement that

9 the Office of the Prosecutor says you gave to them. If

10 you like, we can get a copy of the statement; you can

11 look at it, in Bosnian or in English. What I am getting

12 at, sir, is: when that was put in your statement, you

13 never told that to the Office of the Prosecutor, did

14 you?

15 A. I do not know of there having been any rifles, I do not

16 know. I did not see any.

17 Q. So if that got in your statement, it was because either

18 Mr. MacLeod or the interpreter put it in your statement.

19 You never told them that, right?

20 A. The way I spoke in Belgrade in the offices of the

21 Tribunal of The Hague, I told you, I was in such a state

22 that I really do not know exactly what I said.

23 Q. So you do not know whether you told them that in

24 Belgrade and it was wrong or they just put it in your

25 statement; is that what you are telling me right now,

Page 6395

1 sir?

2 A. Maybe, while I was making this statement which was, as

3 I said, interrupted on several occasions and I was

4 crying. Maybe that was the way the interpreter

5 understood me and formulated this, but I do know as to

6 the best of my knowledge that there were no rifles.

7 Q. I understand that, sir, and I am not saying that is not

8 correct. What I am saying is that this got in your

9 statement without you telling them that and they either

10 misunderstood you or put it in there or made a mistake;

11 is that correct?

12 A. For instance in the statement they used a word

13 "arrested". I was not at all arrested, so the way this

14 happened, this other thing could also have happened in

15 the same way. I was not arrested at all. I was going

16 towards the village of Kralupi, with the women and

17 children, whereas "arrested" means something else.

18 I suppose in battle you may be arrested. I was in

19 civilian clothes, in my sweatsuit and with the women,

20 the children, the elderly and the sick from the hamlet

21 of Vukalo and we walked up to them.

22 Q. It is your position that the investigator and the

23 interpreter from the Office of the Prosecutor made some

24 kind of mistake when they put in your statement that you

25 and the group you were with had two rifles?

Page 6396

1 A. I do not remember. I do not recall having said that.

2 Q. So if that got in your written statement, it should not

3 be there, is that what you are saying?

4 JUDGE JAN: You are asking the same question again.

5 MR. MORAN: I am wanting one answer. Your Honour

6 understanding that you can draw your own inference,

7 I will pass on to other things.

8 Sir, you testified, I believe it was on

9 cross-examination by Ms. Residovic, about an incident

10 while you were in custody in the Musala camp about a

11 mock execution; do you remember testifying about that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. It would have been in early January of 1993, right

14 before you made that statement to those investigators

15 from the Bosnian army, a couple of days before; that is

16 what you said, is it not?

17 A. In Musala, I and not only I myself but many other

18 inmates gave various statements in the various command

19 posts, where we had to go to get food, and we also went

20 to dig the trenches and in various places we were

21 interrogated. I was interrogated also in the SUP in

22 Konjic. I know that two days prior to one of those

23 interrogations in the Konjic SUP I was subjected, as

24 I have already described, to this mock execution. I was

25 going to dig some trenches up there on the frontline,

Page 6397

1 with another three or four detainees, camp inmates, and

2 there I was the victim of this mock execution.

3 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that that is mistreatment

4 of inmates, would you not, or prisoners?

5 A. Of course. I was not aware that it would be a mock

6 execution. I thought they were really going to execute

7 me and we were also beaten there on the frontline.

8 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that that kind of activity,

9 beating people on the frontline and having mock

10 executions, is mistreatment of prisoners. We can agree

11 on that, can we not?

12 A. Of course it is maltreatment.

13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, could the usher give this witness

14 the Serbian translation of his statement to the Office

15 of the Prosecutor? I do not know what exhibit number it

16 is -- D60/4 maybe? It would have come in this morning.

17 60/1, probably, because it would have come in under

18 "Delalic".


20 MR. MORAN: Sir, would you go to the very last sentence in

21 that statement, the last page? It is a one-sentence

22 paragraph. Can you find it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would you please read it out loud?

25 A. "Hristo Vukalo has confirmed" --

Page 6398

1 Q. No, sir, above that there is a one-sentence paragraph,

2 starts out "While I was detained in Musala camp..."

3 I think that is what I am talking about. It is part of

4 the statement; do you see that, just one sentence in the

5 paragraph?

6 A. Yes, I see the sentence now.

7 Q. Would you please read it to the judges?

8 A. "While I was in the Musala camp, I did not see or hear

9 of any mistreatment of prisoners."

10 Sir, I had to state it this way. If they had told

11 me that milk was black I would have had to say that,

12 lest I be treated the same way I was treated in

13 Celebici. I was afraid of that. Who dared say that

14 there were beatings going on in Musala?

15 Q. I understand, sir. When you gave this statement, you

16 were afraid the person you gave this statement to was

17 going to beat you and abuse you; is that right?

18 A. No, I was not afraid of this person to which I was

19 giving the statement. I was afraid of the guards there,

20 and I was afraid that I might be subjected to the same

21 treatment, as I said, as the one I received in Celebici

22 unless I told them what is written here.

23 Q. Go to the very front page, please. Read the words up at

24 the very top of that -- it should be in all capital

25 letters. The very front page, sir. It looks something

Page 6399

1 like this (indicates). Read it right at the top. What

2 does it say? Just read it out loud to the judges.

3 A. You mean "Witness Statement"?

4 Q. No, sir, the part that says, "International Criminal

5 Tribunal for the prosecution of persons responsible...",

6 that part. Read that to the judges.

7 A. "International Criminal Tribunal", that is what it says

8 here, "for the prosecution of persons responsible for

9 serious violations of international law committed in the

10 territory of the Former Yugoslavia since 1991."

11 Q. Let us go on to something else, sir. You talked about a

12 man named Buric during your direct examination; do you

13 remember that, sir?

14 A. Ivica Buric who was in Celebici; I used to see him in

15 Celebici in the camp.

16 Q. He is the guy that worked with you in the Igman factory,

17 right?

18 A. No, Ivica Buric -- the one that was in Celebici did not

19 work at the Igman factory. Ivica Kozara from the

20 village of Pokojiste did work there.

21 Q. From the village of where?

22 A. From the village of Pokojiste.

23 Q. If the statement that was written up by the Office of

24 the Prosecutor for your signature says:

25 "I did not see Ivica Buric in the camp. He was

Page 6400

1 from the village of Pokojiste and worked with me in the

2 Igman factory."

3 If that statement says that, that is wrong; is

4 that correct? That statement is a mistake?

5 A. I did not see Ivica Kozara in the Celebici camp. He

6 worked at Igman in this factory in which I also worked,

7 but I did see Ivica Buric, this younger person and

8 smaller in build and height than Ivica Kozara. Kozara

9 Ivica was on the far end, the upper end of the village

10 of Pokojiste. As for Ivica Buric I do not know where he

11 lived. I only know him from the camp.

12 Q. What I am getting at is this: if you go to the statement

13 in Bosnian -- I will help you find it, but I cannot --

14 it is going to be some place in the middle, and there is

15 going to be a few very short paragraphs. One

16 paragraph starts off, "Both men beat us", and another

17 one says, "One guard, Focak, interrogated us."

18 See if you can find that part of the statement.

19 It is at the top of the second page from the back. Let

20 us do this. This is the last page; it shows the

21 certificate that you signed. Then there is a page

22 before that with writing on it, and then a page right

23 before that. So it will be two pages with writing on it

24 from the back. Have you found it? It starts off

25 "Jedan ...", the first word on the page. It talks

Page 6401

1 about Focak. Have you found it? It is the second or

2 third page from the back. Right up at the top in the

3 upper left-hand corner; see where it talks about Focak?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The next paragraph, okay? Read that out loud for the

6 judges, please.

7 A. It says here, but anything can be written here:

8 "I did not see Ivica Buric in the camp. He was

9 from the village Pokojiste and worked with me at the

10 Igman factory."

11 That was a mistake. It was Ivica Kozara.

12 Q. So the Office of the Prosecutor, they did not put it

13 down right, the investigators from the Office of the

14 Prosecutor; that is what you are telling the court?

15 A. It is possible that he did not understand me, or perhaps

16 I did not say the right name, whereas what I had

17 meant -- the person I had meant was Ivica Kozara.

18 Q. That is fine. I am just trying to clear up that that is

19 a problem that the investigator from the Office of the

20 Prosecutor and the interpreter were not doing their job

21 correctly; is that right?

22 A. I did not say they were not doing their job correctly.

23 The person I meant was Ivica Kozara from the village of

24 Pokojiste. Perhaps they did not understand that.

25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if the usher could show a document

Page 6402

1 to the witness? Will you show it to the prosecutor on

2 the way over? I am sure Mr. Niemann would like to see

3 it. (Handed).

4 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D9/3.

5 MR. MORAN: Sir, while Mr. Niemann is reading that, when the

6 usher hands it to you, the only question I want to ask

7 about it right now is: is that document in your

8 handwriting? If it is, fine; if it is not, that is fine

9 too. Is that document in your handwriting, sir?

10 A. It seems that it is.

11 Q. Sir, would you please read it to the judges out loud?

12 A. When I wrote this, that is what it says here, "I was a

13 member of the SDS ..."

14 Q. Continue reading.

15 A. "... from 15th March 1989. I was born in Bjelovcina on

16 29th March 1964, address Bjelovcina, Konjic. Father

17 Vukalo Spaso and mother nee Babic Milka. I have not

18 been punished so far. I have no criminal record.

19 I have not taken part in any combat operations. I did

20 not belong to any military formation. I did not take

21 part in war operations against the army of BH", the

22 Croat Muslim army, I presume.

23 Q. What does the next sentence say, sir?

24 A. It says here -- what does this mean, PM?

25 Q. How about "7.62 millimetre submachine-gun"; does that

Page 6403

1 look like what it says, sir?

2 A. 7.62 --

3 Q. Millimetre.

4 A. "With folding stock. From the 17th May 1992 to 21st May

5 1992, during the attack on Bjelovcina, I was in the

6 village of Kralupi, without weapons, with women and

7 children, from where I was taken to the Celebici prison

8 on 21st May 1992.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. "I know of no data of any damage sustained."

11 Q. It is dated 6th June 1993, about a year after the

12 battle, right, and it is your signature on it?

13 A. It has a signature, but what combat -- I gave this on

14 6th June 1993. Believe me, I do not remember who took

15 this statement.

16 Q. That is fine, sir. I am just asking you if that is all

17 in your handwriting. I think you have said it is.

18 A. It seems that it is.

19 MR. MORAN: I move to introduce -- what is it, 6 --


21 MR. MORAN: For the limited purpose of impeachment, your

22 Honour.

23 A. 6th June 1993, when I was in the camp in Konjic.

24 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I do not know whether we can do

25 this after lunch, but I wish to object to it and make a

Page 6404

1 submission. Might I suggest, your Honour, if it is

2 convenient to the court, that when I make the

3 submission, if the witness is in the courtroom, that he

4 could remove his headset. It may solve the problem of

5 the witness participating or it being said in any way

6 that we are suggesting answers to him. I think the

7 witness would understand that legal argument is one

8 thing and giving testimony is another. It may be better

9 all round if he was to remove his headset while counsel

10 discuss these matters, if that was suitable to your

11 Honour, but I think perhaps we could pursue this after

12 lunch.

13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, there is another option. I think

14 the interpreters and the court reporters as much as

15 anyone ought to be involved in this. I bet we could go

16 for another 30 or 40 minutes and be done with this

17 person and be done for the week, because it is my

18 understanding this is the last prosecution witness for

19 this week. If we postpone our lunch for a few minutes,

20 we may very well all of us be able to be out about 2.30.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We can still continue until 5.30.

22 MR. MORAN: That is true, your Honour; we can continue.

23 I was hoping to break for the day.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There is still another

25 cross-examination to go.

Page 6405

1 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. This would be an appropriate

2 time for lunch, I agree with Mr. Niemann.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will decide that when we come back

4 at 2.30.

5 (1.05 pm)

6 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)




















Page 6406


2 (2.30 pm)

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Moran, you are already standing.

4 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. I think I may be able to

5 shorten this a little bit. Mr. Niemann is going to

6 object to that exhibit. I will just withdraw the

7 offer. That will save us all a lot of time and trouble.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought as much.

9 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, in view of this witness's statement

10 that the Office of the Prosecutor coerced a statement

11 from him, we do not think any further cross-examination

12 is necessary.


14 MS. McMURREY: I know this may be a surprise to all of you,

15 but in light of the cross-examination that has taken

16 place so far, we do not feel we have any further

17 questions of this witness either.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are following the evidence closely.

19 MS. McMURREY: Yes, thank you very much.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?

21 Re-examined by MR. NIEMANN

22 Q. Yes, your Honour, I just need to clarify a couple of

23 matters. Mr. Vukalo, during the course of

24 cross-examination, you were asked some questions

25 concerning the attack on your village at the

Page 6407

1 commencement of the war round 20th, 21st May 1992; do

2 you remember being questioned about that?

3 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, your Honour, I am not trying to

4 interrupt, but I am looking at the transcript. The

5 initial exchange where I withdrew the offer of that

6 document and waived further cross is not in the

7 transcript. If the court reporters could pick it up off

8 the tape for the official transcript, I would appreciate

9 it.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for that

11 observation.

12 MR. NIEMANN: Do you remember being questioned about that,

13 Mr. Vukalo?

14 A. About the beginning of the war? Is that what you are

15 implying?

16 Q. Yes, there is just one matter I wish to clarify with you

17 about it. You were asked by Defence counsel some

18 questions about that, when the attack started. Do you

19 remember those questions?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In your evidence, I think this may be more of an

22 interpretation error than anything else, did you say

23 that there were no persons killed or casualties "among

24 the Muslims and Croats", or did you say "due to the

25 Muslims or Croats"?

Page 6408

1 A. There were no casualties among the Muslim and Croats;

2 not one of them was killed by an inhabitant of the

3 village of Bjelovcina.

4 Q. Thank you. You were also asked some question about some

5 Arab journalists that came to the camp; do you remember

6 questions about that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you know how many of these Arab journalists were in

9 the group? Are you able to remember that?

10 A. I cannot recall exactly, I think there were two or three

11 in the group, but there were many guards around, the

12 Celebici guards.

13 Q. How did you know that they were Arabs? Did somebody

14 tell you that or did you hear it in conversation or

15 something of that nature? How did you determine that

16 they were Arab journalists?

17 A. When they saw us being beaten by the guards, they

18 laughed, and afterwards, when the whole thing was over,

19 we heard from the guards that they were Arab

20 journalists.

21 Q. This was a TV crew, was it, that was there on that day,

22 so far as you know, a television crew?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You were asked some questions about the last sentence in

25 the statement given to the Office of the Prosecutor

Page 6409

1 which you read out and which I will read out to remind

2 you, where you said:

3 "While I was detained in Musala camp, I did not

4 see or hear any mistreatment of prisoners."

5 You spoke of mock executions and being forced to

6 dig trenches. Did that happen in the Musala camp, or

7 did that happen somewhere outside of the camp?

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not see the relationship with

9 this, and there is no point in repeating that question

10 which resulted in whatever answer he gave. It must have

11 been complete.

12 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases; I will not press it.

13 JUDGE JAN: I want to ask one question: how many visits of

14 Arab journalists took place in the camp?

15 A. As far as I can remember, there was that one that came

16 to Celebici.

17 MR. NIEMANN: I have nothing further.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other questions?


20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is all for this witness.

21 Thank you very much for your effort. You are

22 discharged.

23 (The witness withdrew)

24 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, so masterful was the

25 cross-examination by Mr. Moran that the Defence have all

Page 6410

1 collapsed in their cross-examination, and has thus

2 caught the Prosecution somewhat by surprise as we were

3 not expecting such a masterful performance, such that

4 there would be no further cross-examination this

5 afternoon. Regrettably, your Honours, we have no other

6 witnesses available to be called today, so the only

7 other witness that was going to be made available was

8 Mr. Panzer and there were special arrangements that had

9 to be made for special interpreters to speak German and

10 so forth, which was a matter of some considerable

11 expense and our estimate was that the evidence would run

12 through until the end of the day. Unfortunately that

13 has not happened, but we have been left with no further

14 evidence to call just at the moment, your Honours.

15 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, we understand how it is going to be

16 difficult for him and difficult for us to get our

17 witnesses straight, so we have no objection. But, in

18 view of the compliment, I would like to buy him a drink

19 after court if he is willing.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think we are

21 not exhausted yet. We still have a few things to deal

22 with.

23 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honours.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think there were some applications

25 for protective measures. I am not too sure how prepared

Page 6411

1 the Defence is. There is first the protective measures

2 for Witness S, which was filed on 22nd July. There is

3 also the other one for Witness R, leave to call Witness

4 R, and then protective measures for Witness R. I do not

5 know how the Defence is prepared. They are fairly easy

6 things, except for the usual comment about turning this

7 into a secret trial and sometimes making it undesirable

8 for protection. Here actually they have been filed long

9 enough for one to be able to determine whether a

10 response should have been made by now, because 22nd July

11 is a long time.

12 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, perhaps I could indicate

13 something with respect to our application, a decision

14 that has been made very recently not to proceed to call

15 Witness R, and as a consequence of that, we indicate now

16 that we will be withdrawing the application, and we will

17 formally withdraw it, your Honours, and file our

18 withdrawal with the Registrar.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So we will now deal with only Witness

20 S.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, might the Prosecution hand me a

22 piece of paper or in private session very quickly just

23 tell me who we are talking about? I did not bring the

24 motion. I may have no response at all when I find out

25 who it is. I cannot remember in this cluttered mind of

Page 6412

1 mine who it is we are talking about with regard to

2 Witness S.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber is quite sorry for

4 that type of arrangement. Perhaps we should have

5 informed you before now.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I am not concerned about that at all. If it

7 is something I really need to put some thought to then

8 I might ask leave to do that, but I suspect if I have

9 not responded to the application by now, it is one that

10 did not concern me at the time. I just would like to

11 know the name of the witness we are talking about and

12 that would help me know where I am.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We can go into private session so he

14 can be told. Mr. Niemann, is it easy for you to provide

15 it?

16 MR. NIEMANN: I can provide a piece of paper with the name

17 on.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The name of the witness, yes.

19 MR. NIEMANN: If that might be handed to Mr. Ackerman?

20 (Handed).

21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I do not know who -- this is a

22 motion that was filed before I got into the case so I am

23 not familiar with it, but some enquiries have been made

24 because there may be some doubt about it. I am sorry,

25 your Honour, the name I was given may not be the one,

Page 6413

1 I am not sure.

2 MR. GREAVES: I had a telephone call to the effect that

3 Witness R was Witness S or Witness S was Witness R and

4 I cannot remember which it was. My learned friend is as

5 confused as I am now.

6 MS. McMURREY: I think it was Witness S was Witness Q, the

7 same thing.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: We would just like to be told who is

9 Witness S and who is Witness R because, as far as we

10 were informed, Witness S was previously announced as

11 Witness Q, and now Mr. Niemann has told us that it is

12 Witness R, so there is total confusion, so please let us

13 clear this up so we know who we are talking about.

14 JUDGE JAN: What is the nature of the protection you are

15 seeking? His image should be distorted or his evidence

16 should not come out?

17 MR. NIEMANN: I think, your Honours, it will be -- I need to

18 check, but it will be the anonymity of the name and

19 protection from the image, that is, as I understand it,

20 the basis of the application. I am sorry, I regret that

21 I am unable to assist your Honour any further. It is

22 being obtained at the moment so that hopefully I can

23 clarify that shortly.

24 JUDGE JAN: And also check he has not appeared on Belgrade

25 television.

Page 6414

1 MR. NIEMANN: I will endeavour to do that as well,

2 your Honour.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, my observation is that what is

4 going on here is kind of a test of the ability of

5 lawyers to operate off the top of their heads with no

6 knowledge whatsoever, and I would suggest maybe the best

7 course of action is for us to give up on this today and

8 give us all a chance to -- it may take five minutes

9 later to deal with it. It is probably going to take us

10 20 minutes at least to get it sorted out today.

11 Probably in the interests of time it might make abundant

12 sense to deal with it in five minutes the next time we

13 come into session.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I agree entirely. I think it might be

15 an application which can be dealt with in a very short

16 time.

17 MR. NIEMANN: I do very much hesitate to say any more at all,

18 this afternoon, your Honours. I am assured now that

19 Witness R is the person we say it is and Witness S is

20 the person whose name is written on the note I gave to

21 Mr. Ackerman, so I am assured of that. I am able to

22 provide the name of Witness R if that would resolve any

23 confusion as well.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is to be withdrawn, is it?

25 MR. NIEMANN: It is to be withdrawn, yes.

Page 6415

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What we are concerned with is Witness

2 S.

3 MR. NIEMANN: Also to deal with the matters which are sought

4 in relation to Witness S. They are the use of a

5 pseudonym, suppression of identity and identifying

6 information, and non-use of the name other than the

7 pseudonym in proceedings in the Chamber, and evidence

8 relating to identity to be heard in private session.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, when are we expecting the

10 witness to be called, so that if it is not so urgent, we

11 can defer hearing argument until that time?

12 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, we are not expecting this witness

13 to be called in the next two-week session the Chamber

14 will be sitting. It will be after that two-week

15 session.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We need not worry about it now.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I am still as confused as

18 I was before our learned colleague gave us the

19 explanation, because, from the conversation I had with

20 Ms. Teresa McHenry when we received this request, I saw

21 from what is written here that Witness S is a person who

22 asked for protection after having received some

23 unpleasant telephone calls, so if it is the name that

24 Mr. Niemann has written, it is not the same person,

25 because, according to the explanation of the

Page 6416

1 Prosecution, this witness asked for protective measures

2 for quite different reasons.

3 So I apologise, I am still not sure who is who,

4 which witness is being withdrawn and which one is

5 coming, because from the substance of the argument and

6 the talk I had with a representative of the Prosecution,

7 I understood that Witness S was the one who was

8 previously referred to as Witness Q, and who has asked

9 for protection because he has lately been exposed to

10 threats by telephone, and the person whose name has been

11 given is not that person.

12 MR. MORAN: Maybe to sort all this out, your Honours, it

13 might be a good thing for us all to just leave it

14 sitting where it is right now, and over the two-week

15 break, if somebody, preferably from the Office of the

16 Prosecutor, would put together on -- I was going to say

17 one sheet of paper, but given the fact we are almost

18 through the alphabet, a limited number of sheets of

19 paper, with:

20 "Witness A: Name equals ...

21 "Witness B: Name equals ...

22 "Witness C: Name equals ...", for a couple of

23 reasons, not the least of which is that it will probably

24 make it a whole lot easier for the Trial Chamber if that

25 is in the record. It will sure make us a lot happier

Page 6417

1 when we do not have to worry about whether Witness Q

2 changed his name to Witness S, and witness Z did

3 whatever.

4 While I am on my feet on this subject, one thing

5 I think we need to think about is: earlier this week

6 I cross-examined a man, Dr Grubac, and mentioned Witness

7 P; remember we went into private session. At other

8 points, in fact I think during direct, the name that is

9 attached to Witness P, his true name, was mentioned at

10 various places and whatever the rules are on doing that

11 is fine with me; just somebody should not be referring

12 to him by his real name and then somebody else by the

13 pseudonym. It might be a whole lot easier if we came up

14 with some solution to that.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we have sufficient time within

16 which to reconcile these discrepancies. I am sure with

17 your observations we now have the Prosecution can do

18 that.

19 MR. NIEMANN: We will certainly do that, your Honour.

20 I think it is a very good suggestion. We will sort that

21 out.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think it is a

23 merited vacation in a sense, but I hope we will be able

24 to come back in two weeks time invigorated. Thank you

25 very much.

Page 6418

1 MR. MORAN: Thank you, your Honour. Have a good break.

2 (3.00 pm)

3 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am,

4 Monday, 1st September 1997)