Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7065

     1                                Wednesday, 10th September 1997     2      (10.00 am)

     3      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

     4          Can we have the appearances now?

     5      MR. NIEMANN:  If your Honours please, my name is Grant

     6          Niemann and I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry,

     7          Mr. Turone and Mr. Khan for the Prosecution, your Honour.

     8      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Can we have the appearances for the

     9          Defence, please?

    10      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Good morning, your Honours.  I am Edina

    11          Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic.  My

    12          co-counsel is Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, professor from

    13          Canada.

    14      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you very much.

    15      MR. OLUJIC:  Good morning, your Honours.  I am Zeljko Olujic,

    16          attorney from Zagreb.  I am Defence counsel for

    17          Mr. Mucic.  My co-counsel is Mr. Michael Greaves, attorney

    18          from United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern

    19          Ireland.  Thank you.

    20      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you.

    21      MR. KARABDIC:  Good morning, your Honours.  I am Salih

    22          Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo.  I am Defence counsel

    23          for Mr. Hazim Delic.  Together with me is Mr. Tom Moran,

    24          attorney from Houston Texas.

    25      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you very much.

Page 7066

     1      MR. ACKERMAN:  Good morning, your Honours.  I am John

     2          Ackerman, and along with my co-counsel, Cynthia

     3          McMurrey, we appear on behalf of Mr. Esad Landzo.

     4                I would like to ask permission of the court for

     5          Ms. McMurrey to leave the Trial Chamber at about 12.45

     6          today.  I believe she will return for the afternoon

     7          session.

     8      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you.  You are still leading your

     9          witness?

    10      MR. NIEMANN:  Yes, your Honour.

    11      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Can we have the witness?

    12                         (Witness entered court)

    13      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Please inform the witness he is still

    14          on his oath.

    15      THE REGISTRAR:  I remind you that you are still under oath.

    16      A.  I understand.

    17                        MILOVAN KULJANIN (continued)

    18                     Examined by MR. NIEMANN (continued)

    19      Q.  Good morning Mr. Kuljanin.

    20      A.  Good morning.

    21      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, yesterday afternoon, just prior to the

    22          adjournment, you were telling us about incidents that

    23          you had observed during the period of time that you were

    24          detained in the Celebici camp.  I was asking you about

    25          particular incidents that you saw.  During the time that

Page 7067

     1          you were there, did you know or come to know a person by

     2          the name of Nedeljko Draganic?

     3      A.  Yes.

     4      Q.  Did you see anything happen to Nedeljko Draganic when

     5          you were there?

     6      A.  Yes, on several occasions in building number 6 he was

     7          maltreated, beaten, abused.

     8      Q.  Did you yourself observe this maltreatment and abuse?

     9      A.  Yes, on several occasions.

    10      Q.  Are you able to tell us what you saw?

    11      A.  Well, inside the building number 6 in which I was, I was

    12          able to observe when he was beaten on various parts of

    13          his body with various instruments and he was also kicked

    14          and punched.  He was also burnt.  I think that gasoline

    15          was used.

    16      Q.  Did you see who it was that kicked and punched him

    17          inside hangar number 6?

    18      A.  It was mostly done by guards of the building, Esad

    19          Landzo, Osman Dedic, Esad Macic also on one occasion,

    20          and many others whom I cannot remember.

    21      Q.  You also mentioned a time when he was burnt.  Did you

    22          see him being burnt?

    23      A.  No, it happened outside in front of building number 6.

    24      Q.  What was it that you actually saw?

    25      A.  I only saw the wounds on his legs.

Page 7068

     1      Q.  Do you know whether or not Mr. Draganic received medical

     2          attention for these burns?

     3      A.  I do not know whether he received it or not.

     4      Q.  How long did you stay in the Celebici camp?

     5      A.  9th December 1992, that was when I was transferred to

     6          the Musala prison.

     7      Q.  How long were you detained in the Musala prison?

     8      A.  I think I was there for a total of 880 days until

     9          6th October 1994.

    10      Q.  During the time that you were in the Musala prison, were

    11          statements taken from you?

    12      A.  Yes.

    13      Q.  What happened after you left the Musala prison?  Where

    14          did you go then?

    15      A.  I was exchanged in Sarajevo at the bridge in Grbavica

    16          and then I went to Serbia, I spent about two months in

    17          Belgrade and then I spent ten months in Subotica and so

    18          on.

    19      Q.  After you left the Musala prison and went to Serbia did

    20          you give any further statements?

    21      A.  Yes, I gave a statement in Visegrad in 1996 or 1997,

    22          I cannot remember exactly.

    23      Q.  Do you know what the purpose of that statement was?  Do

    24          you know why it was that they wanted the statement?

    25      A.  I thought because they wanted to have a clear idea as to

Page 7069

     1          what happened in the camp itself.

     2      Q.  I would like you to look at this document that I am now

     3          going to show you and might it be marked for

     4          identification with the next Prosecution exhibit number

     5          in order, please.  (Handed).

     6      THE REGISTRAR:  It is Prosecution Exhibit 175.

     7      MR. NIEMANN:  Mr. Kuljanin, could you just look through that

     8          document, if you would, please?

     9      A.  I cannot read this.

    10      Q.  There are some parts which are illegible, but the parts

    11          that you can read, just look at those for me.  Can you

    12          see a date at the very beginning of that document?

    13      A.  Yes, it is 12th June 1992.

    14      Q.  Do you see your signature anywhere on that document?

    15      A.  Yes.

    16      Q.  Where does your signature appear?

    17      A.  If I may --

    18      Q.  If you could just answer my question if you can: do you

    19          see your signature there?

    20      A.  I am hardly able to read this.

    21      Q.  I am sorry.  What did you want to say?  Mr. Kuljanin, it

    22          is not necessary for you to read the whole document at

    23          this stage.  I just wanted you to tell me if you could

    24          whether or not it was your signature and whether you

    25          remember affixing your signature in about 12th June 1992

Page 7070

     1          to a document?

     2      A.  I am receiving interpretation in French.  I have been

     3          hearing French for the past five minutes.

     4      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I think it is the channel.

     5      MR. NIEMANN:  Mr. Kuljanin, can you understand me now?

     6      A.  Yes, of course.

     7      Q.  The document that I have just given you, can you see

     8          your signature on that document?

     9      A.  Yes, I can.

    10      Q.  Can you remember the circumstances of how it was that

    11          you came to affix your signature to that document?

    12      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  He has been complaining that the

    13          document is illegible.  Do you think he should continue

    14          to say anything about such an illegible document?

    15      MR. NIEMANN:   I apprehend, your Honour, that he is going to

    16          be cross-examined about it.  I am not tendering this

    17          document, I am merely asking him the circumstances about

    18          how he came to affix his signature.  If he is able to

    19          recognise his signature he may be able to recognise the

    20          circumstances under which he affixed it.  The document

    21          is not entirely legible, but there are large portions of

    22          it which may assist him in that, your Honour.

    23      MR. GREAVES:  Your Honour, if he is not tendering it as part

    24          of the Prosecution's case, what relevance does it then

    25          have to the Prosecution's case?

Page 7071

     1      MR. NIEMANN:  I am not tendering it, your Honour, and that

     2          will emerge --

     3      MR. GREAVES:  The objection I have is that it is not

     4          therefore relevant and therefore not admissible at this

     5          stage.

     6      MR. NIEMANN:  I have not sought to tender it, your Honour.

     7          I am allowed to ask questions about a document during

     8          the course of it being identified and I am doing it.  My

     9          friend well knows that.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  What matters is we are wasting

    11          everyone's time by bringing in the issue.  Even if he

    12          said he affixed his signature to the document, to what

    13          does that document refer?  It goes to no issue.

    14      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honours, all of these documents tend to be

    15          somewhat illegible, but so long as they are not used by

    16          the Defence, I have no objection, I will not proceed

    17          with any further questioning on them.  It suits me not

    18          to take it any further, so long as the Defence do not do

    19          the same thing.  If they stand up and start to

    20          cross-examine on the documents, then I will be putting

    21          strenuous objections to it on the basis that there

    22          should be some equality in the approach to the matter.

    23      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  They could not if he can not even read

    24          it and nobody can read it.

    25      MR. NIEMANN:  I understand that.

Page 7072

     1      MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honour, let me just say, there is no

     2          agreement by the Defence that we will not question with

     3          regard to this document, but the problem that Mr. Niemann

     4          is facing at this point is he is asking the witness to

     5          describe the circumstances of a document which the

     6          witness cannot identify because he cannot read it.  So

     7          the cart is getting before the horse.  If the witness

     8          says "yes, I can identify this document, I recognise it"

     9          then perhaps he can take the next step.  As long as it

    10          remains a document the witness cannot recognise, then it

    11          makes no sense to ask questions about the circumstances

    12          under which it was prepared.  That is my objection.

    13      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  He has already taken the hint and he is

    14          not tendering it.  He is not even using it.  I do not

    15          see the relevance of the objection at this stage.

    16      MR. NIEMANN:  I note that at least Mr. Ackerman for the

    17          Defence has said that there is no agreement.  I was not

    18          seeking agreement, I was seeking quality of treatment.

    19          Your Honours, I will not pursue further this questioning

    20          on these particular statements, but the moment the

    21          Defence seek to do so, I will be left with no option

    22          other than application to reopen.

    23      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Unless they can make the witness to be

    24          able to read it and be able to identify it, then that

    25          is -- if he still cannot and says he cannot read it and

Page 7073

     1          not remember anything about it, I do not see anyone can

     2          use it.

     3      MR. NIEMANN:  I understand that, your Honour.  Your Honours,

     4          perhaps I should just ask that question and if he is

     5          unable to identify it, then that is the end of the

     6          matter.

     7                Mr. Kuljanin, are you able to identify the document

     8          that you have now in front of you?

     9      A.  I can identify only my signature.

    10      MR. NIEMANN:  Thank you.  I have a series of other ones which

    11          are more legible, your Honour.  I will ask him to look

    12          at those under the same conditions, if your Honours

    13          please.

    14      JUDGE JAN:  You have English translations of these

    15          documents?

    16      THE INTERPRETER:   Microphone, please, your Honour.

    17      MR. NIEMANN:  There are English translations, your Honour,

    18          but there is no point in showing the witness English

    19          translations.

    20      JUDGE JAN:  For us.

    21      MR. NIEMANN:  Yes.  I will provide your Honours with English

    22          translations.  (Handed).  Might the witness be shown

    23          this document?  It need not be marked, because if the

    24          witness does not recognise it then I will not proceed to

    25          tender it.  If he does recognise it then I will have it

Page 7074

     1          marked for identification.  (Handed).  Mr. Kuljanin,

     2          would you look at the document you are now shown -- it

     3          does not need to be marked.

     4      A.  Of course.

     5      Q.  Is there any part of that document that you recognise,

     6          Mr. Kuljanin?

     7      A.  Only my signature.

     8      Q.  Do you see the date on that document?

     9      A.  15th January 1994.

    10      Q.  Do you remember giving a statement at or about that

    11          time?  Just look at the document that was handed to you,

    12          not that one.

    13      A.  Yes, but this was not made in the premises of the Konjic

    14          police, it was made in the Musala camp itself.  That is

    15          the only difference, but I remember the occasion.

    16      Q.  When the statement was taken, were you given an

    17          opportunity to read it?

    18      A.  No, by no means.

    19      Q.  Were you given an opportunity to make any corrections to

    20          it?

    21      A.  No, nobody even asked me to do that.

    22      Q.  Were you subjected to any threat or inducement when that

    23          statement was taken from you?

    24      A.  Well, as usual, we were maltreated every day.

    25      Q.  Was this during the period of time that you were being

Page 7075

     1          maltreated, that this statement was taken?

     2      A.  Yes.

     3      MR. NIEMANN:  I will have that marked, your Honour, with the

     4          next number in line.

     5      JUDGE JAN:  Just a minute, I have three copies of the same

     6          document.

     7      MR. NIEMANN:  I am sorry.  We had several copies taken.

     8      THE INTERPRETER:   Microphone your Honour, please.

     9      JUDGE JAN:  It is 15th January 1994, all three copies.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  This is 7th February 1994.

    11      MR. NIEMANN:  They need to be sorted, your Honour.  They need

    12          to be sorted out.  They have been given to you all as

    13          one bundle.  Might that document be marked with the next

    14          number in line ?

    15      THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit 176.

    16      MR. NIEMANN:  Mr. Kuljanin, would you look at the next

    17          document I show you?

    18      A.  I am waiting for it to arrive.

    19      Q.  That need not be marked for the moment.  Just give it to

    20          Mr. Kuljanin, please.  If Mr. Kuljanin recognises it, we

    21          will mark it.  If he does not, I will take it back.

    22                Mr. Kuljanin, is there any part of that document

    23          that you can recognise?

    24      A.  Yes, I can recognise my signature.

    25      Q.  Do you see a date on that document?

Page 7076

     1      A.  7th February 1994.

     2      Q.  Do you remember giving a statement around 7th February

     3          1994?

     4      A.  7th February -- yes.

     5      Q.  Where were you when you gave that statement?

     6      A.  I was in Musala, in the Musala camp, in the sports hall.

     7      Q.  Were you given an opportunity --

     8      A.  No, same as for all the previous statements.

     9      Q.  I might repeat the question just for the sake of the

    10          record, because it is not clear.  Were you given an

    11          opportunity to read that document before you affixed

    12          your signature?

    13      A.  No, same as for all the other documents, the previous

    14          two statements.

    15      Q.  Were you given an opportunity to make any corrections to

    16          the statement?

    17      A.  Nobody even asked me that.

    18      Q.  Were you under any threat or inducement when you gave

    19          that statement?

    20      A.  Well, I could say that there were several factors that

    21          had an impact on the actual giving of the statement.

    22          First of all, all of us who would not give the statement

    23          as they wished us to would definitely be beaten up

    24          beyond the point of being able to sit down on a chair

    25          for ten days, and anyone being asked what to write and

Page 7077

     1          what to say, there is no need to even talk about that.

     2      MR. NIEMANN:  Thank you.  Might that document be given the

     3          next Prosecution number in order, please?  Might the

     4          witness be shown this document?  (Handed).

     5      A.  If there can be a correction on this document, it says

     6          that I was brought to the prison on 9th -- at the end of

     7          September 1992.  That is the only thing.  It speaks

     8          enough for itself.

     9      Q.  The next document that I show you, would you look at

    10          that document, look through it and tell me whether you

    11          recognise any part of document.

    12      A.  Yes, I do recognise.

    13      Q.  What do you recognise?

    14      A.  Only some of my words.

    15      Q.  Do you recognise apart from the typed words any other

    16          part of the document?  Do you recognise your signature?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  Can you tell us the date that is shown on that document,

    19          please?

    20      A.  12th April 1994.

    21      Q.  Do you remember where you were on 12th April 1994?

    22      A.  At the Musala prison.

    23      Q.  When you gave that statement again, were you given an

    24          opportunity to read it before you signed it?

    25      A.  No.

Page 7078

     1      Q.  Again, were you given an opportunity to correct it,

     2          correct any errors in it?

     3      A.  No, nobody even asked me that.

     4      Q.  Again, were you subjected to any inducement or threat

     5          when you gave that statement?

     6      A.  Same as for all the previous ones.  We knew what would

     7          follow if one does not speak the way they want you to.

     8      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honours, might that document, the

     9          statement of 12th April 1994, be given the next exhibit

    10          number in order and might I enquire whether the previous

    11          one, the document of 7th February 1994, whether that was

    12          given a number.

    13      THE REGISTRAR:  The previous one was 177 and this one is

    14          178.

    15      MR. NIEMANN:  Might the witness be shown this document?

    16      MR. OLUJIC:  Your Honour, we know that the learned colleague

    17          does have documents available, documents that we have,

    18          but it would be good before the document is presented to

    19          the witness for the Defence to have an insight, or at

    20          least to see exactly which document it is, because this

    21          way we are discussing documents that we would not know

    22          the content of until the very end of.

    23      MR. NIEMANN:  I think the correct procedure, your Honours, is

    24          once I ask for it to be marked for identification it

    25          should then be shown to the Defence, but I have no

Page 7079

     1          objection to the Defence to look at it now before he

     2          looks at it.

     3      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you very much.  I think he will

     4          show it to you before it is actually tendered.  When he

     5          wishes to introduce it for tendering, he will pass it

     6          round to the Defence and then you will know why it is

     7          being tendered.  What he is doing at this stage, as you

     8          notice, is for the witness to identify the particular

     9          document.

    10      MR. NIEMANN:  As your Honour pleases.

    11      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Your Honour, if I may add to this, for the

    12          past few months, we have been implementing a certain

    13          procedure and we have been building a way of presenting

    14          documents.  When Defence wishes to use any document, it

    15          is first given to the Prosecution and then to the

    16          witness.  I believe that in this way we could also do

    17          this in cases when the Prosecutor wishes the witness to

    18          identify a document.

    19                If again your view is different, then we should

    20          know so that we could proceed in a similar way when

    21          presenting documents to the witness for identification.

    22      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Actually my view is not different.

    23          What prompted these procedure is because the first

    24          document the witness was unable even to read the

    25          document, he was not sure really whether he could

Page 7080

     1          identify it.  The moment it was identified, I think the

     2          obligation to pass it round remains, so it is the same

     3          procedure.

     4      MR. NIEMANN:  In view of what your Honour has said, might the

     5          Registrar kindly pass to the Defence the documents that

     6          have been numbered so they can look at those documents.

     7      THE REGISTRAR:  I have received the indictments, but they

     8          are all mixed up, so I am unable to identify them and

     9          sort them out.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I think you can give 176 to 178, the

    11          three documents could be passed round.

    12      MR. NIEMANN:  Mr. Kuljanin, do you recognise any part of the

    13          document that has now been placed in front of you?

    14      A.  Yes.

    15      Q.  What do you recognise?

    16      A.  I do know this document entirely.  I know the whole

    17          document.

    18      Q.  Do you remember the circumstances of that document being

    19          created?

    20      A.  Yes, I was invited by the investigators to give a

    21          statement for the documentation centre and the

    22          Association of Detainees in Belgrade and that is this

    23          statement.  I gave the statement in the court building

    24          of the Visegrad municipality.

    25      Q.  What date is shown on that document?

Page 7081

     1      A.  3rd February 1996.

     2      Q.  Was your signature affixed to that document?

     3      A.  Yes.

     4      Q.  Were you permitted to read that document before you

     5          affixed your signature?

     6      A.  Yes.

     7      Q.  Were you permitted to make any corrections to the

     8          document before you affixed your signature?

     9      A.  Yes, but there was no need for me to do that.

    10      Q.  Was there any threat or inducement held out to you when

    11          you were asked to give this statement and sign that

    12          document?

    13      A.  Certainly not.  I gave this statement voluntarily.

    14      MR. NIEMANN:  Might this document, the one of 3rd February

    15          1996, be given the next number, Prosecution number, in

    16          order and might it also be shown to the Defence.

    17      THE REGISTRAR:  This document is registered as Prosecution

    18          Exhibit 179.

    19      MR. NIEMANN:  I have no further questions, your Honour.

    20      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  If you have arranged the exhibits,

    21          kindly pass it round to the Defence so they have their

    22          own copies.  (Pause).  I think this is the end of the

    23          Prosecution's examination-in-chief.

    24      MR. NIEMANN:  That is correct, your Honour.

    25      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I hope the Defence does not mind if we

Page 7082

     1          have a break for 30 minutes, and by the time we come

     2          back I am sure the exhibits will have been sorted out

     3          and you can have all the exhibits.  We will come back at

     4          11.15.

     5      (10.45 am)

     6                                (A short break)

     7      (11.15 am)

     8      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Yes, Mr. Olujic?

     9      MR. OLUJIC:  Thank you, your Honour.  If it may please the

    10          court, my colleague Michael Greaves will be absent in

    11          the first part in order to prepare the Defence so I will

    12          be by myself in the courtroom.  Thank you.

    13      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you very much.

    14      MR. ACKERMAN:  Before I begin, may I raise one matter?  There

    15          is confusion on this side of the room as to whether the

    16          Prosecution has an additional witness after this one or

    17          not.  There was a misunderstanding in the communication

    18          yesterday, I think.

    19      MR. NIEMANN:  The position at the moment, your Honours, is

    20          that the witnesses that we had planned for this week,

    21          the three additional extra witnesses have fallen

    22          through, they will not be available and will not come to

    23          The Hague at the moment.  We have arranged to bring in

    24          one witness -- excuse me a second.  (Pause).

    25                The witness is in fact -- we have one witness

Page 7083

     1          flying in at the moment, it is anticipated he will

     2          arrive here tonight.  He is the last name on the list

     3          that we have already provided to the Defence for this

     4          week.  The answer to the question is we do expect to

     5          have one additional witness this week other than this

     6          one.  Other than that, all the other witnesses have

     7          refused to come to The Hague.

     8      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Is that clear to the Defence now?

     9      MR. ACKERMAN:  I think that is not a protected witness, is

    10          that true?

    11      MR. NIEMANN:  That is true, your Honour.

    12      MR. ACKERMAN:  That would be (redacted).

    13      MR. NIEMANN:  Yes.

    14      MR. ACKERMAN:  Is it the intention of the Prosecution and the

    15          Trial Chamber to take that witness prior to the

    16          handwriting and the documents from Vienna, or to do

    17          those first and then put on that witness.

    18      MR. NIEMANN:  The intention, your Honours, was that we would

    19          proceed with the legal argument and if there was time

    20          left, we would call that witness.  If the legal argument

    21          consumes all the available time for the rest of the

    22          week, which we doubt will be the position, we would then

    23          call the witness.  It was not our intention to seek to

    24          delay the argument on admissibility whilst this witness

    25          was called.

Page 7084

     1      MR. ACKERMAN:  That is perfectly acceptable, your Honour.

     2          That is what we had anticipated.  We just wanted to make

     3          certain that was the position of the Office of the

     4          Prosecutor.

     5      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  We have two legal arguments before us.

     6      MR. NIEMANN:  There are two arguments, your Honour.

     7      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  The order we have decided perhaps will

     8          be different from what you intend to do.

     9      MR. NIEMANN:  It is possible.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Can we call the witness for

    11          cross-examination?

    12      MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honours, the order of cross-examination

    13          will be Landzo, Delalic, Mucic, Delic.

    14                         (Witness entered court)

    15      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Please remind the witness he is still

    16          on his oath.

    17      THE REGISTRAR:   I am reminding you, sir, that you are still

    18          under oath.

    19      A.  Yes, I know.

    20      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  The cross-examination may continue.

    21                       Cross-examined by MR. ACKERMAN

    22      Q.  Thank you, your Honour.  Good morning, Mr. Kuljanin.

    23      A.  Good morning to you too.

    24      Q.  My name is John Ackerman and I will be asking you some

    25          questions here for the next several minutes, okay?

Page 7085

     1      A.  Okay.

     2      MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honours, might I ask for the first couple

     3          of questions that I want to ask this witness that we go

     4          into private session?

     5      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  We will go into private session now.

     6                           (In closed session)

     7      (redacted)

     8      (redacted)

     9      (redacted)

    10      (redacted)

    11      (redacted)

    12      (redacted)

    13      (redacted)

    14      (redacted)

    15      (redacted)

    16      (redacted)

    17      (redacted)

    18      (redacted)

    19      (redacted)

    20      (redacted)

    21      (redacted)

    22      (redacted)

    23      (redacted)

    24      (redacted)

    25                            (In open session)

Page 7086

     1      MR. ACKERMAN:  We are.  Thank you, your Honour.  How many

     2          times have you discussed the experiences you had in

     3          Celebici and the period of time leading up to that and

     4          subsequent to that with Dr. Jovanovic?

     5      A.  I have spoken to Dr. Jovanovic only about my health

     6          problems.

     7      Q.  So he has no knowledge about your experiences in

     8          Celebici other than what he might have heard sitting

     9          here in the courtroom listening; is that a fair

    10          statement?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      MR. ACKERMAN:  Excuse me a moment, your Honour.  (Pause).

    13                Does this doctor have any kind of a speciality?

    14      A.  Yes, his speciality is psychiatry.

    15      Q.  You were also with another witness who has testified

    16          here this week by the name of Rajko Draganic, were you

    17          not?

    18      A.  Yes.

    19      Q.  Did you know Mr. Draganic before your arrival here at

    20          The Hague?

    21      A.  Yes, before the war.

    22      Q.  So you knew him even before your experiences in

    23          Celebici?

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  Would you say that the two of you are close friends?

Page 7087

     1      A.  Well, not very good friends, but we do know each other

     2          well enough.

     3      Q.  I suspect at some point you and he have discussed your

     4          separate experiences with regard to the war and Celebici

     5          camp.

     6      A.  We rarely talk about it.  There is no need because we

     7          both know very well what we experienced.  He has got

     8          nothing new to tell me and I have nothing new to tell

     9          him.  That would be absurd.

    10      Q.  The one thing that the two of you do have in common is

    11          that you were both witnesses here in the International

    12          Tribunal this week, correct?

    13      A.  Yes, that is a matter of the court.

    14      Q.  This is a kind of extraordinary experience for both of

    15          you to go through, to be called here as witnesses and to

    16          be questioned and that sort of thing, is it not?

    17      A.  I have not understood the question.

    18      Q.  This is an extraordinary experience in both your life

    19          and his to be called here as witnesses to testify before

    20          the International Tribunal; it is something neither of

    21          you have ever done before, correct?

    22      A.  Well, naturally we knew that some day we would be coming

    23          here.

    24      Q.  Now that the two of you have come here, and have spent

    25          some time together, certainly you have talked about your

Page 7088

     1          experiences as being witnesses before this Tribunal with

     2          each other, have you not?

     3      A.  No.

     4      Q.  So in the time you have spent together here, what you

     5          want us to understand is that you have not spoken to

     6          each other at all about testifying before this Tribunal?

     7      A.  I cannot say that we have not discussed things about the

     8          court, but we did not talk about what happened to whom,

     9          because we know very well exactly what happened to whom.

    10      Q.  Did Mr. Draganic not tell you some things about his

    11          experience as a witness here being cross-examined and

    12          kind of help you understand what that might be like?

    13      A.  Only in as much as that the court is fair and that there

    14          are no problems in this.

    15      Q.  That is the only thing he told you about his experience

    16          here as a witness?

    17      A.  I think yes.

    18      Q.  Did you not have any discussions with him about it

    19          because someone told you not to?

    20      A.  Certainly not, no.

    21      Q.  So no one told you that you should not discuss anything

    22          with him?

    23      A.  Yes, I do know that I am not supposed to talk to him,

    24          but as I say, we did not discuss anything about the

    25          court itself.

Page 7089

     1      Q.  How is it you know that you are not supposed to talk

     2          with him?

     3      A.  We have instructions.

     4      Q.  Do you know who gave you those instructions?

     5      A.  Well, we received them from the interpreters.  Who gave

     6          them to them, that I do not know, as to how to act in

     7          the court, et cetera, what the rules of the court are.

     8      Q.  Among those things that you were told by the

     9          interpreters, one of those things were that you were not

    10          to discuss your testimony with anyone else?

    11      A.  Well, I did not talk.

    12      Q.  That was not my question.  My question was: were you

    13          told by the interpreters that you were not to discuss

    14          your testimony with other persons?

    15      A.  Yes.

    16      Q.  All right.  I now want to ask you a series of questions

    17          about the various statements you have given.  I would

    18          ask you to listen very carefully to my questions.  I am

    19          going to try to phrase them in such a way that you can

    20          answer them with either a yes or a no; okay?

    21      A.  Yes.

    22      Q.  Please understand that if I want you to explain

    23          something about a statement, then I will specifically

    24          ask you to do so, but in most of the questions I ask you

    25          I am not requesting an explanation, but simply an

Page 7090

     1          acknowledgement of whether or not a statement was made,

     2          whether or not you have seen it before, things of that

     3          nature to which you can answer yes or no, okay?

     4      A.  Yes.

     5      Q.  You know that there are several statements in existence

     6          which contain your signature because you have just seen

     7          several of them here in the courtroom, correct?

     8      A.  Yes.

     9      Q.  Today, here in the courtroom, is not the first time, is

    10          it, that you have had an opportunity to see those

    11          statements?

    12      A.  Yes.

    13      Q.  It is the first time or it is not the first time?

    14      A.  No, I have seen those statements before.

    15      Q.  The questions that Mr. Niemann was asking you about some

    16          of those statements, basically the statements that you

    17          gave at Celebici and while you were in Musala, one of

    18          the questions he was asking you about all those

    19          statements was whether at the time you signed them you

    20          had had an opportunity to review them before you signed

    21          them, and I think your answer to each one of those

    22          questions, with regard to each one of those statements,

    23          was that you had not; correct?

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  You did have an opportunity, did you not, on

Page 7091

     1          23rd February 1996 to review all those statements?

     2      A.  Yes, not all of them, the statement I gave on 23rd -- on

     3          2nd -- on 3rd February 1996.  That was the only

     4          statement that I had the opportunity to.

     5      Q.  There was also the one you gave on 7th February 1994

     6          that was shown to you at that time, correct?

     7      A.  For me to see?

     8      Q.  Yes, for you to see.

     9      A.  No.  In 1994?  Certainly not.

    10      Q.  You signed a statement that you gave to Ms. Sabina

    11          Manke of the office of the Prosecutor on February

    12          23rd 1996, did you not?

    13      A.  Yes.

    14      Q.  Did Ms. Manke give you an opportunity to learn what was

    15          in that statement before you signed it, or was it

    16          another situation where you were basically forced to

    17          sign it without knowing what it said?

    18      A.  No, I had full insight into the statement on that

    19          occasion.

    20      Q.  So if that statement says that you had had an

    21          opportunity to review the statements given to

    22          Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities on 7th February 1994 and

    23          the one in Visegrad on 3rd February 1995, are you now

    24          saying that is not true?

    25      A.  I do not understand.  Which authorities in Mostar?

Page 7092

     1      Q.  The statement that you gave to Ms. Manke refers to a

     2          statement you gave to Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities on

     3          7th February 1994.  Are you familiar with that

     4          statement?

     5      A.  Yes, I gave that statement in Konjic, not in Mostar.

     6      Q.  That statement was shown to you by Ms. Manke when you

     7          talked with her on 23rd February 1996, was it not?

     8      A.  Yes, but I said the same thing I said now.

     9      Q.  Yes, and with regard to that statement and the statement

    10          that you made in Visegrad on 3rd February, with regard

    11          to both of those, you were given the opportunity by

    12          Ms. Manke to correct anything in those statements that

    13          was wrong, were you not?

    14      A.  In the statements from 1994?

    15      Q.  7th February 1994 statement and the 3rd February 1995

    16          statement.

    17      A.  I think I corrected the one from 1994 and 1995, there is

    18          nothing to correct.

    19      Q.  What I am trying to -- it is actually a 3rd February

    20          1996 statement, not 1995.  There is an error in

    21          Ms. Manke's statement, I think.  Both of those statements

    22          were presented to you at that time and you were given an

    23          opportunity to review them and say whether or not there

    24          were things in them that you thought were incorrect so

    25          that you could correct them; is that a fair statement?

Page 7093

     1      A.  I think I did say what the things were that were not

     2          correct and I think that it was corrected.

     3      Q.  Yes, I agree with you.

     4      A.  If that is not so, that was not my mistake.

     5      Q.  By my count, you have given nine statements regarding

     6          your experiences during the war, some dealing with

     7          Celebici, some dealing with other matters.  Have you

     8          made a count so you know that is the number you have

     9          given?

    10      A.  I do not think there were nine.  I know about four.

    11      Q.  Do you know about a video statement that you made

    12          regarding your experiences in Mostar?

    13      A.  Yes, there were several.

    14      Q.  More than one of those, correct?

    15      A.  Well, I do not know.  Who knows how many times I was

    16          taped?  I could have been taped 100 times.

    17      Q.  You, of course, have seen today and you recall a

    18          statement that you gave on 12th June 1992, that is the

    19          first exhibit that was shown you by Mr. Niemann and the

    20          one that you said you really could not identify anything

    21          but your signature; you remember that one?

    22      A.  Yes.

    23      Q.  I take it that would be a statement that you gave very

    24          soon after arriving at Celebici when you were questioned

    25          by Kuhar and Miro Stenek?

Page 7094

     1      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honour, I object to the question.  If the

     2          witness said he cannot identify it, then how can he now

     3          give evidence about what it was?

     4      A.  Yes.

     5      MR. ACKERMAN:  You did give a statement around 12th June to

     6          Miro Stenek and Kuhar, correct?

     7      A.  Yes, mid June, when I arrived.  That was the first

     8          statement I had given in Celebici, in the camp.

     9      Q.  You signed that statement?

    10      A.  Yes.

    11      Q.  You gave another statement on 12th January 1993 after

    12          you had gone to MUP and you have seen that statement

    13          this morning, have you not?

    14      A.  No, I did not go anywhere.  They came to the Musala

    15          prison where they conducted interviews with me.

    16      Q.  I think there may have been a mistake in the

    17          translation.  That is what I had suggested, that this

    18          was a statement you gave in Musala after you had been

    19          transferred there on 12th January 1993?

    20      A.  Yes.  Not on 12th January, it was on 9th December that

    21          I was transferred from Celebici to Musala.

    22      Q.  Yes, but after that, on 12th January you gave another

    23          statement?

    24      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honour, I rise to mention a couple of

    25          points.  When my friend was referring to the statements

Page 7095

     1          from the Office of the Prosecutor, he was saying it was

     2          a statement of 23rd February 1996, when in fact it was a

     3          statement that the witness gave on 14th November 1996.

     4          He now keeps referring to a statement on 12th January

     5          and I think it is the 15th, if he looks at it.  I do not

     6          know of any statement on the 12th.

     7      MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honour, there is mass confusion at this

     8          point.  I have a statement that was given me by the

     9          Office of the Prosecutor made January 12th 1993.  Maybe

    10          Mr. Niemann does not have that document.

    11      MR. NIEMANN:  I do not have it.

    12      MR. ACKERMAN:  Can I ask the usher to give it to Mr. Niemann?

    13          (Handed).

    14      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  That is not yet in evidence, is it?

    15      MR. ACKERMAN:  No, apparently the Prosecutor's office, after

    16          giving it to us, lost it.  Just a minute.  (Pause).

    17          I am sorry.  Show it to Mr. Niemann.  (Handed).  I have

    18          it.

    19      MR. NIEMANN:  Does my friend still maintain it comes from the

    20          Office of the Prosecutor, because it is not a document

    21          that certainly I am familiar with.

    22      MR. ACKERMAN:  I have just been informed that it did not come

    23          from your office, it came from elsewhere.  I would ask

    24          that the Serbo-Croatian version of that, your Honour, in

    25          the same manner that Mr. Niemann did it, be shown to the

Page 7096

     1          witness to see if he can identify the document, before

     2          it is marked, please.  Please do not mark it until he

     3          says whether he can identify it.

     4      THE REGISTRAR:  I have to mark the documents before deciding

     5          whether the document will be admitted or not.

     6      MR. ACKERMAN:  Just a moment ago Mr. Niemann was permitted to

     7          show documents to the witness for identification before

     8          they were marked to see if he could identify them.  We

     9          understood the procedure was they all had to be marked

    10          before showing to the witness but that procedure

    11          changed --

    12      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  The procedure did not change.  What

    13          I explained immediately after Ms. Residovic complained

    14          about it, because he was unable to identify it, he could

    15          see whether he could identify it or not.  In the normal

    16          procedure, the Registrar marks every paper that passes

    17          through and then sends it to the witness.  Whether it is

    18          finally tendered or not, it still has a Registry number,

    19          even if it is withdrawn, it has a Registry number.

    20      MR. ACKERMAN:  That has been my understanding until this

    21          morning, when Mr. Niemann was asking they be shown to him

    22          without being marked, and was permitted to do that.  I

    23          do not have any objection to this being marked.

    24      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  No, that is a complication.  As I said

    25          this morning, the witness was protesting that it was

Page 7097

     1          illegible.  If it is illegible, there is no point in

     2          even showing it to him.  Finally I do not think he even

     3          proceeded to show it to him because I explained that

     4          there was no point, he cannot identify what is

     5          illegible.

     6      MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honour, I have no complaint about it

     7          being marked.  They may go ahead and do that and then

     8          show it to him.

     9      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I was only referring to a precedent

    10          which is now thought to have been made, but that was not

    11          a precedent as such.

    12      MR. ACKERMAN:  I have no problem with it.  I just want to

    13          have it understood that that will be the rule from now

    14          on, no matter what.

    15      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  It is.

    16      THE REGISTRAR:  (Not interpreted).

    17      MR. ACKERMAN:  I got no translation of what was just said.

    18      THE REGISTRAR:  This is Defence Exhibit D25/4.

    19      MR. ACKERMAN:  All right.  Mr. Kuljanin, you now have before

    20          you a statement.  My first question is: do you recognise

    21          it?

    22      A.  Yes.

    23      Q.  Does it have your signature on it?

    24      A.  Yes, it does have my signature, but the contents are not

    25          mine.

Page 7098

     1      Q.  Do you remember the incident, the time that that

     2          statement was taken?

     3      A.  Let me just check the date.  I cannot remember.

     4      Q.  You also gave a statement dated 15th January 1994, did

     5          you not, that was shown to you this morning?

     6      A.  Yes.

     7      Q.  You also gave a statement dated 7th February 1994, did

     8          you not?

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  You gave a statement dated 3rd February 1996 to the

    11          investigating judge in Visegrad, did you not?

    12      A.  Yes.

    13      Q.  You gave a statement dated 23rd February 1996 to the

    14          Office of the Prosecutor, correct?

    15      A.  Yes.

    16      Q.  I skipped the April 1994 statement that you gave that

    17          was Exhibit 178 from this morning, you remember that

    18          one, of course?  Do you remember that one?

    19      A.  What date?

    20      Q.  It was April 1994, it is exhibit number 178, do you

    21          remember that?

    22      A.  Yes.

    23      Q.  You also gave a statement to the Office of the

    24          Prosecutor on 14th November 1996, correct?

    25      A.  Yes.

Page 7099

     1      Q.  By my count, that all adds up to nine if you count the

     2          video statement that I had mentioned earlier?

     3      A.  I am sorry?

     4      Q.  By my count, that is nine statements if you count the

     5          video statement that I had mentioned earlier that you

     6          agreed there was at least one of and perhaps more;

     7          correct?

     8      A.  Maybe even more.  There were more statements, but this

     9          is what we have.

    10      Q.  Have you given -- you have given more statements that

    11          are not present in the courtroom; is that correct?

    12      A.  I would sometimes give one or two statements a day.  It

    13          may have been 50 statements or even more.  It is not

    14          just me, all of us there who spent a long time there

    15          were in such a position.

    16      Q.  You have talked about a statement that you gave to an

    17          investigating judge in Visegrad on 3rd February 1996;

    18          you remember that statement, of course?

    19      A.  Yes.

    20      Q.  I think you told us that that statement was given

    21          basically at the request of the Association of Detainees

    22          in Belgrade?

    23      A.  Well, yes.

    24      Q.  Do you know why you gave that statement to a judge in a

    25          court?  Do you know why it was done that way?

Page 7100

     1      A.  I think it was for the purpose of collecting evidence

     2          about war crimes that had been committed.

     3      Q.  Do you think it was also for the purpose of making

     4          certain that you were advised of your obligation to tell

     5          the truth and not to conceal anything prior to giving

     6          that statement?

     7      A.  Well, I may have forgotten something, because I was

     8          there for three years and I could tell you about that

     9          for ten days.

    10      Q.  My question was do you think one of the reasons it was

    11          given before a judge so that there would be no question

    12          but that you were advised to tell the truth and not

    13          conceal anything, and that it would therefore be an

    14          official statement?

    15      A.  I think that was the reason, yes.

    16      Q.  What other persons went with you and gave similar

    17          statements on the same day?

    18      A.  I do not know about that.  I was on my own, I had

    19          received a summons to appear.  Maybe there was somebody

    20          there before me or after me, but while I was giving my

    21          statement, I was alone.

    22      Q.  Do you know anyone else that received such a summons and

    23          gave such a statement to this court in Visegrad

    24          regarding their experiences?

    25      A.  I think there were quite a few of them, all of those who

Page 7101

     1          had been in the Celebici camp and all the other camps,

     2          not just the Celebici camp.  All over the place in the

     3          territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

     4      Q.  So your impression was that this court was involved in

     5          conducting an investigation and took statements from a

     6          number of witnesses who had knowledge about Celebici and

     7          other camps?

     8      A.  I do not know whether they had conducted an

     9          investigation.  I know that they took statements.

    10      Q.  Can you give us the names of other people you know who

    11          made statements to a court at the request of the

    12          Association of Detainees?  Just those you know who did

    13          that.

    14      A.  I cannot remember those names now.

    15      Q.  Not even one?

    16      A.  Maybe Spaso Miljevic was there, Grozdana Cecez and so

    17          forth, but I am not sure.  It is possible.

    18      Q.  Have you ever seen any statements made by any other

    19          persons to this court or any other court at the request

    20          of the Association of Detainees?

    21      A.  No, this information was not accessible to me.

    22      Q.  Do you know where the Association of Detainees kept

    23          these statements that all these people were making to

    24          this court and perhaps other courts in Serbia?

    25      A.  No, I do not know.  I just know where the Association

Page 7102

     1          is.  I do not know where they keep the documents.

     2      Q.  Have you been to the offices of the Association of

     3          Detainees?

     4      A.  Yes.

     5      Q.  Are you a member of the Association of Detainees?

     6      A.  Yes.

     7      Q.  You have told us that you believe, you have a kind of

     8          sense, I guess, that Spaso Miljevic and Grozdana Cecez

     9          gave similar statement to the court.  I would like you

    10          to think very carefully and tell us if you can give us

    11          the names of any more people who you think might have

    12          done so or who you know did?

    13      A.  I did not see them so I cannot say anything.

    14      Q.  In your conversation with other detainees, did any of

    15          them tell you they had given such statements?

    16      A.  No.

    17      Q.  How about Mr. Draganic who you talked to last night?  Did

    18          he say about making such a statement to the Association

    19          of Detainees?

    20      A.  No, we did not discuss that.  I think he may have given

    21          a statement.  I think he did.

    22      Q.  Anybody else that you think did?

    23      A.  Had given a statement to the Association of Detainees,

    24          is that your question?

    25      Q.  Yes, it is.

Page 7103

     1      A.  Yes, all those who are members of the Association of

     2          Detainees had given such statements.

     3      Q.  In fact, it is a requirement that you give such a

     4          statement to become a member of the Association of

     5          Detainees, is it not?  That is one of the things you

     6          have to do to become a member.

     7      A.  No, it is not a condition.

     8      Q.  But to your knowledge, everyone who is a member of the

     9          Association did give such a statement?

    10      A.  I think yes, but it is enough for a person who have

    11          spent one day in a camp to become a member of the

    12          Association of Detainees.

    13      MR. ACKERMAN:  Yes, I understand that.  I am going to ask the

    14          Registrar to find some photographs and ask the usher to

    15          show them to you.  (Pause).

    16                May I assist, your Honour?  May I assist the

    17          Registry in finding the photographs I want?

    18      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Yes, you can.  You are really not too

    19          sure about the exhibit you are referring to.  (Pause).

    20      MR. ACKERMAN:  Thank you for your indulgence, your Honour.

    21                Mr. Kuljanin, I am showing you a couple of

    22          photographs and I would ask the usher to tell us what

    23          the exhibit numbers are on the back of them.  The first

    24          one is a woman and that one is.

    25      THE USHER:   D6/2.

Page 7104

     1      MR. ACKERMAN:  It must be D4/2.  The male is?

     2      THE USHER:   D5/2.

     3      MR. ACKERMAN:  D5/2, okay.  D6/2 and D5/2?

     4      THE USHER:   Yes.

     5      MR. ACKERMAN:  I would ask you, Mr. Kuljanin, to look at those

     6          photographs and tell us if you know either of those

     7          people pictured there.

     8      A.  Yes, I do know them.

     9      Q.  Who is the woman who is depicted in that first

    10          photograph?

    11      A.  That is Mrs. Dusica Bojic.

    12      Q.  Who is she?

    13      A.  Who is she?  She is the head of the documentation

    14          centre.

    15      Q.  What documentation centre?

    16      A.  With the Association of Detainees in Belgrade.

    17      Q.  Have you ever met with her personally?

    18      A.  Yes.

    19      Q.  On how many occasions?

    20      A.  Two or three times.

    21      Q.  Is she the person that asked you to go to the court and

    22          make a statement?

    23      A.  You mean this court here?

    24      Q.  No, I am talking about the court in Visegrad?

    25      A.  No, I do not know who thought that, because I received a

Page 7105

     1          summons from the Visegrad court to give a statement.

     2      Q.  Do you know how it is the Visegrad court knew that you

     3          had any information that would be of interest to them?

     4      A.  I do not know that.

     5      Q.  Have you discussed your experiences in Celebici with

     6          this woman shown in that first photograph?

     7      A.  Yes.

     8      Q.  Did you give her a statement that you signed?

     9      A.  No.

    10      Q.  Did she discuss with you the possibility of your coming

    11          here to testify?

    12      A.  No.  We talked only about the camp.  We did not talk,

    13          nor have I ever thought that she would have anything to

    14          do with this, because that is not her job.

    15      Q.  Did she record the conversation that you had with her

    16          about your experiences in the camp?

    17      A.  No, I did not see that, but it is possible.

    18      Q.  If we understand that her job is head of the

    19          documentation centre, that would imply that her job is

    20          to document what happened in the camp, would it not?

    21      A.  It is possible, but I never had time to give any

    22          statements.  I did not see her record anything.  She may

    23          have recorded something, but secretly, but I do not

    24          think that that is the case.

    25      Q.  Do you have any knowledge at all of how it is she might

Page 7106

     1          have documented what you told her about your experiences

     2          in the camp?

     3      A.  I think on the basis of the statements.

     4      Q.  The statement you are referring to is the one you gave

     5          to the court in Visegrad?

     6      A.  Yes.

     7      Q.  To your knowledge the way this Association was

     8          documenting what had happened in Celebici and other

     9          camps was by having people go to the court and give

    10          formal statements to the court?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      Q.  Look at the other photograph, will you please?  Do you

    13          know that person?

    14      A.  Yes.

    15      Q.  Who is that?  Excuse me, just a minute, do not answer

    16          that question.  Do we have a protection issue with

    17          regard to that question?  I will ask the Prosecutor

    18          before I ask you to answer the question.

    19      MR. NIEMANN:  I do not know who it is, your Honour, so

    20          I cannot answer the question.

    21      MR. ACKERMAN:  The person testified here as Witness O.

    22      MR. NIEMANN:  We do now, your Honour, yes.

    23      MR. ACKERMAN:  I thought you might.  Can we go into private

    24          session for a moment, your Honour?

    25      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Can we go into closed session, please?

Page 7107

     1      JUDGE JAN:  Did this gentleman appear on Belgrade

     2          television.

     3      MR. ACKERMAN:  Yes, he did.

     4      MR. NIEMANN:  I have no idea, your Honour, but the situation

     5          is that we are not so much concerned about names being

     6          mentioned but names of them being mentioned as witnesses

     7          is what concerned us.

     8                           (In closed session)

     9      (redacted)

    10      (redacted)

    11      (redacted)

    12      (redacted)

    13      (redacted)

    14      (redacted)

    15      (redacted)

    16      (redacted)

    17      (redacted)

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    19      (redacted)

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    23      (redacted)

    24      (redacted)

    25      (redacted)

Page 7108

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     5      (redacted)

     6      (redacted)

     7      (redacted)

     8      (redacted)

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    11      (redacted)

    12      (redacted)

    13      (redacted)

    14      (redacted)

    15      (redacted)

    16      (redacted)

    17      (redacted)

    18      (redacted)

    19      (redacted)

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    23      (redacted)

    24      (redacted)

    25      (redacted)

Page 7109

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     4      (redacted)

     5      (redacted)

     6      (redacted)

     7      (redacted)

     8      (redacted)

     9      (redacted)

    10      (redacted)

    11      (redacted)

    12      (redacted)

    13      (redacted)

    14      (redacted)

    15      (redacted)

    16      (redacted)

    17      (redacted)

    18      (redacted)

    19      (redacted)

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    21      (redacted)

    22      (redacted)

    23      (redacted)

    24      (redacted)

    25      (redacted)

Page 7110

     1      (redacted)

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     3      (redacted)

     4      (redacted)

     5      (redacted)

     6                            (In open session)

     7      MR. ACKERMAN:  You have told us this morning with regard to

     8          all of these statements, except perhaps the one that

     9          I showed you of, I think, 12th January 1993, with regard

    10          to the rest of them, you had an opportunity before this

    11          morning to look at them, did you not?

    12      A.  Yes.

    13      Q.  Just like you did with Sabina Manke on November

    14          14th 1996, you noticed what it was about those

    15          statements that was incorrect, correct?

    16      A.  Yes.

    17      Q.  Did you make notes, did you write down the things about

    18          each of those statements that were incorrect?

    19      A.  I gave a verbal correction.

    20      Q.  Who did you give that verbal correction to?

    21      A.  To the judge -- I mean to Mrs. Sabina.

    22      Q.  That is since you have arrived here at The Hague?

    23      A.  No.

    24      Q.  How about since you have arrived here at The Hague?

    25          Have you had an opportunity to make any corrections

Page 7111

     1          since you have arrived here at The Hague or to tell

     2          anyone about things in those statements that you now

     3          contend were not true?

     4      A.  Yes.

     5      Q.  Who would that be that you have talked to?

     6      A.  With Mr. Prosecutor.

     7      Q.  Mr. Niemann sitting over there that questioned you

     8          earlier today?

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  How many times did you meet with Mr. Niemann?

    11      A.  Twice, two or three times.

    12      Q.  On the first of those occasions, how long did you meet

    13          with him?

    14      A.  15, 20 minutes, not very long.

    15      Q.  And on the second occasion how long?

    16      A.  The same, maybe up to half an hour.

    17      Q.  If there was a third occasion, how long that time?

    18      A.  Maybe five minutes.

    19      Q.  So in the whole time that you have been here in

    20          The Hague, you have discussed these matters with

    21          Mr. Niemann for less than an hour?

    22      A.  Something like that, an hour an hour and a half for the

    23          entire time.

    24      Q.  In the course of that you had an opportunity to review

    25          all of these statements and to tell Mr. Niemann the

Page 7112

     1          things that were not correct in the statements?

     2      A.  Yes.

     3      Q.  Did you make any notes about the things that were not

     4          correct while you were here in The Hague?

     5      A.  That was Mr. Niemann, on the basis of my statement.

     6      Q.  So Mr. Niemann was making notes but you were not?

     7      A.  No.

     8      Q.  Did anyone ask you to take all these statements back to

     9          your hotel with you, go through them and mark the parts

    10          of them that you thought were not correct?

    11      A.  No.  I think we did that at the court itself.

    12      Q.  Here in this building?

    13      A.  Yes.

    14      Q.  I want to ask you a question or two about the statement

    15          which you concede is true and completely true, that

    16          being the one that you gave to the court in Visegrad on

    17          February 3rd 1996, okay?

    18      A.  Okay.

    19      Q.  You said in that statement, and I am going to quote the

    20          English version and I will go very slowly so that it can

    21          be translated to you:

    22                "At the beginning of June 1992, I was in the

    23          Serbian village of Cerici, near Konjic."

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  "When the Muslim armed forces attacked this village on

Page 7113

     1          10th June 1992.  I was captured, together with Miro

     2          Golubovic from Cerici."

     3      A.  Yes.

     4      Q.  "That same day, we were taken to Celebici camp."

     5      A.  Yes.

     6      Q.  That is what you told the judge in Visegrad on

     7          3rd February 1996, correct?

     8      A.  Yes, but not on the 10th but between the 6th and the

     9          7th.  That was when I was detained in Celebici.

    10      Q.  Okay.  You then rather immediately after that gave a

    11          statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, that being on

    12          23rd February 1996, just 20 days later, correct?

    13      A.  Yes.

    14      Q.  Again I am going to read you part of that statement:

    15                "On 9th June 1992, a relative of mine, Miro

    16          Golubovic, and myself called the commander of the HVO

    17          military police, the Croat Darko Verkic, who used to be

    18          a great friend of mine personally."

    19      A.  Yes, that is correct, but we did not invite him, he was

    20          invited by one of our men from the village, but

    21          following our initiative.

    22      Q.  When I first started asking you questions, I asked you,

    23          Mr. Kuljanin, to pay particular attention to my

    24          questions, and that I would try to ask them in a way

    25          that could be answered either yes or no and that if

Page 7114

     1          I wanted you to explain, I would ask you to do that.

     2          All I am asking you right now is to confirm for us that

     3          these are the things you told the Office of the

     4          Prosecutor during your first statement to them on

     5          February 23rd 1996.  Do we understand each other at this

     6          point?

     7      A.  Yes.

     8      Q.  I am going to continue now what this statement reflects

     9          that you told the Office of the Prosecutor:

    10                "We wanted to go to Serbia through Croatia, and

    11          wanted a pass for that.  Darko himself came to get us on

    12          10th June 1992.  We drove in his police van, together

    13          with six or seven of his policemen from Cerici towards

    14          Celebici, to have what we believed a short informal

    15          interrogation there, and from there, we were supposed to

    16          continue to go on to Croatia."

    17                That is what you told the Office of the Prosecutor

    18          on February 23rd.

    19      A.  Yes, that is correct.

    20      Q.  That was less than three weeks after you had given your

    21          statement to the court in Visegrad, correct?

    22      A.  Yes.

    23      Q.  Yesterday in your testimony before this court with

    24          regard to that moment of time right after you had

    25          arrived at Celebici, you described how you were first

Page 7115

     1          lined up, placed against building 22 and beaten, and

     2          then taken by Mr. Delic to the manhole accompanied by

     3          Mr. Verkic, correct?

     4      A.  I do not think we understood each other quite well.

     5          There is a mistake here.  I was beaten up after I had

     6          left the manhole and I was put against the wall of

     7          building number 22, and not when I arrived.

     8      Q.  So your position then yesterday was you were not beaten

     9          upon your arrival at Celebici but taken rather directly

    10          to the manhole?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      Q.  In the statement you gave on January 15th 1994, which

    13          you have had an opportunity to review, that statement

    14          reflects that you said the following:

    15                "We came to the gate of the Celebici prison where

    16          we were held for about five minutes as Verkic got out

    17          from the car to the registration desk and he talked

    18          about something with a guard.  When he came back to the

    19          car, we continued further into the prison.  After some

    20          300 metres the vehicle stopped and Verkic got out.  He

    21          approached a manhole with an iron cover which was locked

    22          with an Elzett padlock.  I did not understand why he was

    23          opening the manhole.  While I was sitting in the car,

    24          I thought it was some kind of a joke."

    25                You then went on to describe how he had ordered

Page 7116

     1          you into the manhole and how Miro Golubovic got in first

     2          and then you.  Is that what you told the person who was

     3          questioning you on January 15th 1994?

     4      A.  No.

     5      Q.  Is it your contention here today that that statement is

     6          not true?

     7      A.  Yes.

     8      Q.  On February 23rd 1996, you were interviewed by Sabina

     9          Manke of the Office of the Prosecutor, were you not?

    10      A.  Yes.

    11      Q.  You told Ms. Manke, did you not, that on arrival at the

    12          camp you were attacked by Muslim policemen:

    13                "One attacked me with a knife and tore my jacket.

    14          Delic and a driver took me and my relative to the

    15          manhole."

    16                Is that what you told Ms. Manke?

    17      A.  Yes, it is correct.  Ismet Hebibovic attacked me inside

    18          the van with a knife.

    19      Q.  I want to talk to you about the time at Celebici when

    20          you were taken for interrogation.  Yesterday I believe

    21          what you told us was that you were taken from the

    22          manhole and taken to building 22 by Mr. Mucic and

    23          Mr. Delic, correct?

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  You told us that you were taken to building 22 and put

Page 7117

     1          up against the wall.

     2      A.  Yes, facing the wall.

     3      Q.  You told us that you were beaten for about half an hour

     4          prior to being interrogated, correct?

     5      A.  Yes, I stood for quite some time in front of the wall.

     6      Q.  Your statement on 15th January 1994, which you have

     7          signed, says that you were removed from the manhole by

     8          Mucic, Verkic and "the Verkic guys", the HVO police, and

     9          taken for interrogation by Kuhar for a one hour

    10          interrogation.  In that statement you said nothing about

    11          being beaten at building 22 prior to that statement, did

    12          you?

    13      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honours, at this stage I object to

    14          questions being asked about these statements which the

    15          witness --

    16      A.  Beat me again --

    17      MR. NIEMANN:  I would just ask that the statements that the

    18          witness has attested to as having been taken under

    19          duress be not used for the purposes of impeachment.  How

    20          can they possibly be the basis if an impeachment?  If my

    21          friend is doing something other than impeaching the

    22          witness, I do not know, but if that is what his

    23          intention is, then in my submission these documents

    24          cannot be used for that basis, having regard to what the

    25          witness has attested to in the circumstances in which

Page 7118

     1          they have been obtained.  I object to that, your Honour.

     2      MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honour, I think what I have established

     3          and if it is not correct I will stand corrected, but

     4          I think what I have established was that on November

     5          14th 1996 he was given an opportunity by Sabina Manke to

     6          state any corrections that he had to any of these

     7          statements and stated a few, which did not include the

     8          statement that you are referring to right at the present

     9          time.  That is what I think the situation is.  Even

    10          those he was not given an opportunity perhaps to correct

    11          them at the time they were made, he was given that

    12          opportunity by Sabina Manke on November 14th and made

    13          very few corrections, thereby implicitly verifying the

    14          balance of what was given in those statements.  If I am

    15          wrong about that, I am wrong about that.

    16      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  That is not the basis of the

    17          objection.  The objection is the authorship, the freedom

    18          under which he was when he made this statement.  I think

    19          that is what counsel is objecting to.

    20      MR. ACKERMAN:  I totally agree with that.  What I am saying

    21          is: if at a later point Ms. Manke showed him this

    22          statement and said "is there anything in this statement

    23          that you would like to change that is incorrect" and he

    24          said, "the date here is wrong, I will change that but

    25          nothing else", then he has independently verified that

Page 7119

     1          statement at a later date, whether he was allowed to see

     2          it at the time he made it or not.  It is my contention

     3          that he has done that.

     4      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  But he still has not been put to the

     5          question whether that statement was voluntarily made.

     6      MR. ACKERMAN:  I will ask an additional question or two, your

     7          Honour.  Maybe I can clear it up.

     8      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honour, before my friend does that I would

     9          invite him to look at the second paragraph of the

    10          statement he gave on 14th November 1996 to Ms. Sabina

    11          Manke and the second paragraph clearly says:

    12                "I did not believe that I could add the entire and

    13          complete truth to the statements I gave to the Bosnian

    14          authorities."

    15                Clearly the questions of clarification sought by

    16          the Office of the Prosecutor were limited.  I do not

    17          believe that counsel can now assert that only those

    18          matters which were dealt with there and then at that

    19          time represents the entire rectification of inaccuracies

    20          contained in these documents.

    21      MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honour, I think since Mr. Niemann and

    22          I neither one were there, we are going to have to leave

    23          it up to the witness to tell us that.  I would like to

    24          ask one or two more questions, maybe I can clarify.

    25      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  You can ask him.

Page 7120

     1      MR. ACKERMAN:  Mr. Kuljanin, at the time you had your

     2          conversations with Sabina Manke regarding all these

     3          statements, one of the statements that you looked at and

     4          talked to her about was that one made on 15th January

     5          1994, was it not?

     6      A.  I think there was only one statement.

     7      Q.  So you think that statement was not one that she showed

     8          you on that date?

     9      A.  I think there was only one.

    10      Q.  The position you are taking here today then is that what

    11          was contained in that 15th January 1994 statement is not

    12          correct?

    13      A.  To an extent.  There is very little truth in it.

    14      Q.  Let me move on to something else then, if I may.  You

    15          told us yesterday how there was an occasion after you

    16          had been subjected to a beating when Mr. Mucic came into

    17          hangar 6 and approached you and talked to you directly,

    18          and asked you how you had received the injuries that

    19          were obvious to him.  Do you recall that incident?

    20      A.  Yes.

    21      Q.  You did not tell him how you had received those injuries

    22          because you were afraid of the possible repercussions of

    23          telling him who had done it, correct?

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  As a result of that fear, you refused to tell him who it

Page 7121

     1          was that had assaulted you, did you not?

     2      A.  Yes.

     3      Q.  I take it that if you would not tell him who had

     4          assaulted you, then it would have been extremely

     5          difficult for him to identify and punish the person or

     6          persons who had done so.

     7      A.  That I do not know.

     8      Q.  You certainly had the impression that he was

     9          legitimately trying to find out from you who had done

    10          that to you, so that he might be able to take some

    11          action regarding what had happened to you.  That was

    12          certainly the way it appeared, was it not?

    13      A.  Yes.

    14      Q.  You told us yesterday that at the time you were

    15          arrested, you had a 7.62 millimetre pistol in your

    16          possession.

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  Did you have a permit for that pistol?

    19      A.  No.

    20      Q.  Did you know that it was against the law for you to have

    21          that without a permit?

    22      A.  Yes.

    23      Q.  I have just one other matter that I would like to ask

    24          you about, I think.  This is about the time after you

    25          were moved to Musala prison.  Do you remember ever

Page 7122

     1          encountering a person by the name of Garo, a Croat who

     2          was drunk?

     3      A.  Yes.

     4      Q.  Could you tell us about that incident?  What happened

     5          there?

     6      A.  Well, it was about 8.00, I think it was winter, so it

     7          was already dark.  Garo came, I really do not know his

     8          name, all I know is his nickname, Garo.  He came with

     9          two or three of his policemen of the Croatian Defence

    10          Council.  He entered the prison, he went amongst the

    11          guards and we just heard that there was something

    12          strange happening, that there was noise, and he told us

    13          all to go outside, to go to the hallway.  We all went

    14          out, he came and brought four or five cardboard boxes of

    15          beer and he told us all to line up and take a beer.  We

    16          all lined up and we took a beer each.

    17                Then an incident occurred between the authorities

    18          of the prison and Garo himself.  They reached for their

    19          guns, we fled -- went back to our cells, and it more or

    20          less ended with no shooting, they did not shoot.

    21      Q.  Did not Garo at one point --

    22      A.  That was the only time that I saw him.  I never saw him

    23          again.

    24      Q.  Did he not at one point point a gun at your head?

    25      A.  No, he pointed the gun in my direction, but he did not

Page 7123

     1          intend to point the gun at my head, but somebody else's

     2          head, the head of a guard who was nearby, because a

     3          conflict had started with the Muslims.

     4      Q.  Do you know if any guards made efforts to get him

     5          removed from the building?

     6      A.  Yes, they all tried.

     7      Q.  Do you know that one of those guards who was trying to

     8          get him out of the building was Mr. Landzo, do you not?

     9      A.  I do not know, I cannot remember.

    10      Q.  You do remember that Mr. Landzo was present at that

    11          point, correct?

    12      A.  I do not remember.

    13      MR. ACKERMAN:  Thank you.  That is all I have.  Wait a

    14          minute.  (Pause).  That is all I have, your Honour,

    15          thank you.

    16      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Any other cross-examination?

    17      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Good afternoon.  If it may please the

    18          court?

    19      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  You may proceed, please.

    20                      Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC

    21      Q.  Good afternoon, Mr. Kuljanin.

    22      A.  Good afternoon to you too.

    23      Q.  My name is Edina Residovic, I am Defence counsel for

    24          Mr. Zejnil Delalic.  However, before I start with my

    25          questions, same as my colleagues, I would like to ask

Page 7124

     1          you first of all that when I ask my questions that if

     2          possible your answers should be brief and precise and,

     3          second, if you do not understand the question please let

     4          me know immediately so that I could repeat the

     5          question.  Third, something that my colleagues have not

     6          said and I wish to ask you that, is that you should

     7          understand that the two of us speak and understand the

     8          same language, and that others in this courtroom should

     9          follow our conversation.  Therefore, I would like to ask

    10          you, when I finish my question you should wait so that

    11          on the headphones that the usher showed you, the

    12          headphones that are on the table, that you hear the

    13          English translation of my question and then give your

    14          answer after that.  You do not need to put the

    15          headphones on, they will be on the desk in front of you

    16          and you will only hear the translation.  Thus we would

    17          allow everybody to follow what we are talking about.

    18      A.  Yes.

    19      Q.  During the day yesterday, you testified before this

    20          court that you were arrested and taken to Celebici

    21          together with your friend Miro Golubovic, is that

    22          correct?

    23      A.  Yes.

    24      Q.  You also know, Mr. Kuljanin, that Mr. Miro Golubovic

    25          testified before this court, is that correct?  When my

Page 7125

     1          colleague the Prosecutor asked you about it --

     2      MR. ACKERMAN:  Excuse me, your Honour, we did not get an

     3          answer, I do not think.  I am sorry.

     4      MS. RESIDOVIC:  So at the beginning, there is a warning,

     5          when you hear the translation of my question, only then

     6          you should give the yes or no answer, because the

     7          interpreter cannot follow what we are talking about at

     8          the same speed.

     9                So when asked by the Prosecutor you responded that

    10          you had had a pistol; is that correct?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      Q.  If Miro Golubovic testified before this court that you

    13          had a sniper rifle and a pistol, was he then telling the

    14          truth?

    15      A.  He was telling the truth.  The rifle was not mine.  It

    16          was a small calibre rifle which was used for sport, for

    17          shooting.

    18      Q.  So Mr. Kuljanin, you surrendered the small calibre rifle

    19          with sniper aiming equipment for sports shooting?

    20      A.  I did not hand it over.  It was not in my possession

    21          when I was arrested.

    22      Q.  But the rifle was found at your place, as your rifle?

    23      A.  No, only the pistol was found in my possession.  The

    24          rifle was on the other side of the village.

    25      Q.  So if Miro Golubovic said that you had both the pistol

Page 7126

     1          and the rifle with sniper aiming equipment, then he did

     2          not give a true testimony before this court; is that

     3          correct?

     4      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honour, this has been asked and answered.

     5          In addition to that, I object to questions which say

     6          that the witness is lying or not telling the truth.  The

     7          witness should at least be given the benefit of the

     8          doubt and asked whether he was incorrect and then

     9          perhaps, depending on the answer, one can progress

    10          further than that.  To ask this witness whether or not

    11          he is lying is an inappropriate question and I object to

    12          that form of question.

    13      MS. RESIDOVIC:  I do apologise to my learned colleague.

    14          I did not use the verb "lie", I said that something was

    15          not the truth, or something was incorrect.  I do not

    16          know about the translation my colleague received, and

    17          I think that I can ask questions -- ask the witness

    18          questions in accordance with the facts presented before

    19          this court.

    20                Mr. Kuljanin, did you know that Miro Golubovic also

    21          had weapons?

    22      A.  Yes.

    23      Q.  Can you tell us if it is correct that Miro Golubovic had

    24          a machine-gun?

    25      A.  Yes.

Page 7127

     1      Q.  Did you see Miro Golubovic's machine-gun?

     2      A.  Yes.

     3      Q.  Has Miro Golubovic seen your small calibre rifle with

     4          sniper aiming equipment?

     5      A.  Yes.

     6      Q.  So when asked by the Prosecutor yesterday, you responded

     7          that you only had a pistol, you were not telling the

     8          whole truth; is that correct?

     9      A.  The question was what I had in my possession at the time

    10          of the arrest, and I said that I had a pistol.

    11      Q.  Therefore if the question asked was which weapons did

    12          you have, the precise answer would have been a 7.62

    13          pistol and a small calibre rifle with sniper aiming

    14          equipment; is that correct?

    15      A.  Yes.

    16      Q.  You also do know Nedeljko Draganic; is that correct?

    17      A.  Slightly, but I do know him.

    18      Q.  If he also confirmed this fact before this court, the

    19          fact that you had a small calibre rifle with sniper

    20          aiming equipment, so that means that he did confirm the

    21          thing that you have just responded?

    22      A.  Yes.

    23      Q.  In the statement presented to the Prosecutor you had

    24          never mentioned equipment earlier; is that correct?

    25      A.  I did not understand the question.  I apologise.

Page 7128

     1      Q.  In the statement you gave to Ms. Manke you did not speak

     2          about your possession of weapons.

     3      A.  I think I did say that I had a pistol.  I think that it

     4          is in the statement.

     5      Q.  You did not tell her on that occasion either about a

     6          rifle with sniper aiming equipment; is that correct?

     7      A.  I do not remember.

     8      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, you certainly know the person named Dragan

     9          Dragovic, nicknamed Drasko?

    10      A.  Yes.

    11      Q.  Let us say that you would agree with me if I say that

    12          that is a person who is not very serious; is that

    13          correct?

    14      A.  It depends on who you are.

    15      Q.  He does not pay his debts.

    16      A.  I cannot really give you an assessment of that.

    17      Q.  Is it correct that you gave Drasko Dragovic, you sold an

    18          automatic rifle to Drasko Dragovic for 300 Deutschmarks

    19          and he continued to owe you that money?

    20      A.  No, it is not correct.  If I had had that rifle I would

    21          have given it to him.  He would not have had to pay for

    22          the rifle, because everybody had a rifle.

    23      Q.  Just now you said that at the time, in Donje Selo,

    24          everybody had a rifle; is that correct?

    25      A.  Not in Donje Selo, in the Konjic municipality.

Page 7129

     1      Q.  In the Konjic municipality, that means including Donje

     2          Selo, because Cerici, Bjelovcina and Donje Selo are part

     3          of the Konjic municipality; correct?

     4      A.  Yes.

     5      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, your father's name is Jefto, correct?

     6      A.  Yes.

     7      Q.  Your mother's name is Ljubica Cuca?

     8      A.  Yes.

     9      Q.  Your father used to worked in maintenance of railways;

    10          is that correct?

    11      A.  No, he worked in Igman, in the military industry.

    12      Q.  So mill industry, I am asking you this because there are

    13          some other people named Milovan Kuljanin in this

    14          municipality, so we want to be certain that we can ask

    15          you questions about certain facts linked to the name of

    16          Milovan Kuljanin.

    17      A.  All right.

    18      Q.  Just before the war you were convicted to four months

    19          imprisonment; is that correct?

    20      A.  Yes.

    21      Q.  That was because of fighting and bodily harm; is that

    22          correct?

    23      A.  Yes, but it was self-defence.

    24      Q.  Your younger brother is named Ranko and your elder

    25          brother is named Srecko?

Page 7130

     1      A.  Yes, I have a lot of aunts and uncles.

     2      Q.  They were not in Celebici?

     3      A.  No.

     4      Q.  In the month of May they had already got to Borci?

     5      A.  They had fled, they did not go there.

     6      Q.  They were members of the army of Republika Srpska?

     7      A.  Yes.

     8      Q.  Srecko was the personal escort to the Colonel of the

     9          army of Republika Srpska named Risto Lazarevic?

    10      A.  No, I was not, I was in the prison at the time.

    11      Q.  But he did tell you about it?

    12      A.  No, we do not talk to each other.

    13      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Mrs. Residovic, can we now start our

    14          break?

    15      A.  Is this part of the indictment?

    16      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Thank you, your Honour.

    17      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  We will resume at 2.30.

    18      (1.00 pm)

    19                         (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)







Page 7131

     1      (2.30 pm)

     2      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Please remind the witness he is still

     3          on his oath.

     4      THE REGISTRAR:  I remind you that you are still under oath.

     5      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  You may proceed, Mrs. Residovic.

     6      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Thank you, your Honour.

     7                Mr. Kuljanin, we finished earlier by confirming

     8          that your brothers were both in the army of Republika

     9          Srpska but that you have not spoken to them about that;

    10          is that correct?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      Q.  Is there a dispute between you and your brothers?

    13      A.  We do not live together.

    14      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honours, I really do ask what the

    15          relevance of all of this is in relation to this

    16          witness.  What does it matter if he is disputing with

    17          his brothers or not?  Surely that cannot help the

    18          Chamber to come to any conclusion over the charges in

    19          this matter.

    20      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  She is cross-examining.  She may have

    21          her reasons for putting these questions.  Yes, you may

    22          continue.

    23      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Thank you, your Honour.

    24                Mr. Kuljanin, you have also confirmed that you were

    25          arrested by Darko Verkic, together with the members of

Page 7132

     1          the military police of HVO and you were taken to

     2          Celebici; is that correct?

     3      A.  That is correct.

     4      Q.  Before the war, Darko Verkic was an acquaintance of

     5          yours, even a friend.

     6      A.  Yes.

     7      Q.  After this event you were rather disappointed and

     8          furious with Darko Verkic; is that correct?

     9      A.  You could say that.

    10      Q.  You thought that he had deceived you?

    11      A.  He did.

    12      Q.  Sometimes while you were in Musala, you used to say, due

    13          to that anger, that you would not regret dying, but

    14          before that you would like to take your revenge against

    15          Darko Verkic.

    16      A.  I would not like to take my revenge on him, I would just

    17          like to pay him back, the same as he did to me.

    18      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, you said that your occupation was that of a

    19          waiter.

    20      A.  Yes.

    21      Q.  You also said that from January to mid March, you were a

    22          reservist of JNA in Mostar.  Before joining the

    23          reservists you worked as a waiter at the railway station

    24          in Konjic.

    25      A.  Yes.

Page 7133

     1      Q.  So when asked by the Prosecutor, you said that before

     2          your reservist service, you said that you were with the

     3          regular JNA forces, you did not give a correct answer.

     4      A.  Please, could you repeat your question?

     5      Q.  When asked by the Prosecutor about what your occupation

     6          was before you joined the reservists, you said yesterday

     7          that you had been in the regular JNA forces.

     8      A.  This was in 1990 to 1991 and after I had served my

     9          national service, I did not do anything for six months.

    10      Q.  So it is correct that immediately prior to joining the

    11          reserve forces in Mostar for a while you had worked as a

    12          waiter in Konjic; is that correct?

    13      A.  No, it was before I had gone to the army.

    14      Q.  Thank you.  In the reserve forces in Mostar with you

    15          there were ten or fifteen other persons from Konjic.

    16      A.  Yes.

    17      Q.  As a native of Konjic you knew that the SDS leadership

    18          which armed the Serbs carried most of the blame for what

    19          happened to part of the Serb population later; is that

    20          correct?

    21      A.  I do not think so, the SDS leadership was formed after

    22          all the other political parties, HDZ and SDA, had

    23          already been formed.

    24      Q.  Is it correct that the former JNA and the Serb forces

    25          continually shelled Konjic from the hills?

Page 7134

     1      A.  In which period of time?

     2      Q.  From early May to be precise, from 4th May?

     3      A.  4th May, I am not sure.

     4      Q.  They thus inflicted evil against everyone, including the

     5          Serbs, if it is true that they were the ones who

     6          shelled.

     7      A.  If it is true that they had shelled then that is a

     8          correct assessment.

     9      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, in your statement given to the

    10          representative of OTP, Ms. Sabina Manke, you said that

    11          for 40 minutes before you went for your first interview

    12          in front of the infirmary, you were badly beaten; is

    13          that true?

    14      A.  That is true.

    15      Q.  You also said, and you gave the date of two or three

    16          days after that, on 14th June, you were beaten so badly

    17          that you received 280 blows.

    18      A.  My colleagues at the hangar counted the hits.  They

    19          listened to that.  I did not count.

    20      Q.  Is it correct, Mr. Kuljanin, that after the first 40

    21          minutes of torture with different means, as you said,

    22          the investigators could have seen consequences of this

    23          abuse on you?

    24      A.  Of course.  They also have my medical records.

    25      Q.  Also, the consequences of those events of the 14th would

Page 7135

     1          also be visible plainly.

     2      A.  I did not understand the question.  On the 14th in

     3          1992?  Well I was examined five days ago, and it was

     4          visible.

     5      Q.  I will be a bit more precise.  In the statement given to

     6          the representative of OTP, Ms. Sabina Manke, you said

     7          that on 14th June you were beaten up, and that on that

     8          occasion you received about 280 blows.  I am asking you

     9          now, were those injuries visible?

    10      A.  Yes.

    11      Q.  You also said that this statement that you gave after

    12          this mistreatment of 40 minutes was the first statement

    13          you had given at all, a statement given to any

    14          authority.

    15      A.  Yes, I think so.

    16      Q.  You confirmed to my colleague that after that you had

    17          given many other statements, both in writing and on

    18          video.

    19      A.  Yes, in the prison itself, in the camp.

    20      Q.  With the assistance of the technical services I would

    21          like for the witness to be presented one of his

    22          statements.  I have also provided the interpreters with

    23          a translation of this text.

    24      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Which of the statements are you

    25          referring to, so that we might be able to assist?

Page 7136

     1      MS. RESIDOVIC:  It is the statement from the month of June

     2          which this witness gave before video cameras, and when

     3          asked by my colleagues he did say that he had given

     4          those statements.  Since this is a statement that shows

     5          the witness and what I am talking about, I want the

     6          witness to be presented -- I want this statement to be

     7          presented to the witness as a statement given outside

     8          the court.

     9      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I am not sure it is a statement which

    10          is identifiable here.  If it is, the Registrar might be

    11          able to play it.

    12      THE REGISTRAR:  I think this is exhibit 175.

    13      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Your Honour, this is a video statement, and

    14          I would like to ask the technical services to show it so

    15          that the witness could identify it and on the basis of

    16          that, for me to be able to ask questions.  We have

    17          already confirmed the basis for showing it by the fact

    18          that the witness said that he had given this statement.

    19      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  How do you identify the video so that

    20          the technical people can put it on the video section.

    21      MS. RESIDOVIC:  The video recording was submitted by the

    22          Defence to the technical services.  Thank you.  So can

    23          we now see the video recording, please?

    24                            (Videotape played)

    25                "I want to address the public and to tell the

Page 7137

     1          truth about my stay in Mostar, and my stay in Konjic,

     2          where I am now.  On this occasion I would like to

     3          address the former Yugoslav People's Army, the residents

     4          of Borci, that are biggest enemies of all the Serbian

     5          population in Konjic, that they have no mercy towards

     6          Serbs, Croats or Muslims.  They only make troubles that

     7          you can imagine, that you can experience.  I was in

     8          Mostar for about two months and I saw what that was,

     9          what kind of an army that was and where that was all

    10          going.  These are only thieves, cheats and liars who

    11          came here only for the money and nothing more.  They

    12          hope to have the borders of greater Serbia, and that is

    13          not normal.  They are not aware that Serbia cannot be

    14          here.  We do not need that.  We need no Serbia here.

    15          I am personally convinced that at least 70 per cent of

    16          the citizens of Konjic want to live in Konjic.  They

    17          want to live with Croats and Muslims as they have lived

    18          so far.  They, well, those people in Borci put us in

    19          such a situation that we have to turn our backs on those

    20          with whom we used to sit in our homes and have coffee,

    21          because we are Serbs, because not all the Serbs are the

    22          same.  Whoever is at Borci, these are extremists and

    23          nothing else.  They should not fire those shells, they

    24          should think of all the people in Konjic.  They should

    25          think of Muslims and Croats and of Serbs, but they do

Page 7138

     1          not think of anyone as far as I can see.  There is no

     2          mercy.

     3                I want to say also that while I was in Mostar,

     4          where I was, that was one of the biggest mistakes of my

     5          life, that I had gone there, because I was unemployed,

     6          so we went, ten or fifteen of us, as far as I know, we

     7          just went there because the pay was good.  Later, when

     8          I saw what that was all about, I fled back to Konjic.

     9          I am deeply convinced that the logic -- that the army in

    10          which I served, the former Yugoslav People's Army, that

    11          there is no logic for its being here.  There is no need

    12          for that.  They are just making our lives miserable, all

    13          of us.  We would be the happiest, we, the Serbs, if they

    14          would leave this very minute from Borci and from

    15          Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole.  They have not brought

    16          any good to anyone in the whole of Yugoslavia, let alone

    17          to us here in Konjic.  They climb up the hill and now

    18          they send their shells.

    19                These are not sane people.  They are idiots,

    20          morons.  I cannot -- I hate them so much that

    21          I cannot -- I would like to go up there now, if I only

    22          had something to burn them all.  The biggest culprits

    23          after the army are the leaders of the SDS.  Now none of

    24          them is here.  They escaped a month ago.  One cannot

    25          find them anywhere.  They dragged the Serb people into

Page 7139

     1          an abyss and now they watch us from the distance of some

     2          500 kilometres or even 2,000 kilometres.  These are the

     3          people who fled abroad.  These are the arms smugglers

     4          and war profiteers.  They are paid to be Serbs.  They

     5          were collecting money from the people and they did

     6          not ..."

     7                          (Videotape stopped)

     8      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Thank you.  Mr. Kuljanin, did you recognise

     9          the person speaking?

    10      A.  Yes, I spoke, but you cannot see the desk from which

    11          I was reading.

    12      Q.  The statement was made after your first statement in

    13          Celebici?

    14      A.  Yes, as I already said, you cannot see the desk from

    15          which I was reading.

    16      Q.  In Mostar with you, there were about ten or fifteen

    17          other persons from Konjic.

    18      A.  That is correct.

    19      Q.  And you knew at the time that the town was being shelled

    20          from the eastern parts, from the direction of Borci?

    21      A.  I did not understand the question.

    22      Q.  At the time, you were aware of the fact that the town

    23          was daily shelled from the direction of the Boracko

    24          Lake?

    25      A.  That was what we were told.

Page 7140

     1      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Since the witness identified this

     2          recording, I would like, in order to impeach the

     3          witness, I would like to tender this video recording as

     4          a Defence exhibit.

     5      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Yes, you can.

     6      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Thank you.

     7      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  What number is it?

     8      THE REGISTRAR:  This is Defence exhibit D68/1.

     9      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Thank you.  Mr. Kuljanin, you know that

    10          Witness N also testified here, we spoke about him

    11          yesterday.

    12      A.  Yes.

    13      Q.  You also know that Witness N, together with you, was one

    14          of the reservists in Mostar; is that correct?

    15      A.  I know that he was there, but he was not there with me.

    16      Q.  You also know that in the reserve forces in Mostar,

    17          there were the following persons from Konjic there:

    18          (redacted), Milan Cecez, Mitar Manivada, Slobodan

    19          Cecez, Hristo Gligorevic, Mladen Zivak, Kuljanin

    20          nicknamed Corba, late, and another named Koprivica.  Are

    21          those the ten to fifteen persons that you have spoken

    22          about?

    23      A.  I know three or four of them.  I do not know the others.

    24      Q.  Can you give us the name of the four, in addition to you

    25          and Mr. N?

Page 7141

     1      A.  Mr. N, myself, Mitar Manivada, and Dusko Gligorevic.

     2      Q.  Thank you.  You know Milan Cecez from Donje Selo?

     3      A.  Slightly.

     4      Q.  Is it correct that together with Lazar Cecez, he was

     5          responsible for arming the population of Donje Selo?

     6      A.  I do not know about that.

     7      Q.  Is it correct that while in the reserve forces in

     8          Mostar, same as Milan Cecez, you received a salary

     9          amount of 200 Deutschmarks?

    10      A.  I cannot remember now, but thereabouts.

    11      Q.  Is it correct from Mostar, from the reserve forces, you

    12          fled on 10th March?

    13      A.  I did not flee, I had just come home.

    14      Q.  Is it correct that at the time you took with you an

    15          automatic rifle and the pistol that we have spoken about

    16          here, and two bombs?

    17      A.  Yes, I took a pistol and two bombs.  I did not take the

    18          automatic rifle with me because it was widely available

    19          and I did not have any need to bring it with me.

    20      Q.  So in addition to the weapons that we have just talked

    21          about, you also had two grenades with you?

    22      A.  Yes.

    23      Q.  During the examination-in-chief you said that you went

    24          to Donje Selo when the first shells started to fall on

    25          Konjic; is that correct?

Page 7142

     1      A.  I said when the first -- when I started to feel unsafe

     2          in the town itself.

     3      Q.  Before the fighting in Donje Selo, you often went to a

     4          cafe owned by Lazar and Grozdana Cecez; is that correct?

     5      A.  Yes.

     6      Q.  It is there that you heard an argument regarding the

     7          acquisition of 45 pieces of weapons?

     8      A.  I did not hear the argument, there were some remarks and

     9          it was not 400 to 500 but 40 to 50 pieces of weapons.

    10      Q.  Could you tell us if there was a comment regarding who

    11          should pay for this, for these pieces of weapons?

    12      A.  No, this was not paid.  One did not pay for that.

    13      Q.  So all the weapons that were coming for the inhabitants

    14          of Donje Selo was free of charge for the inhabitants?

    15      A.  I do not know.  Maybe -- it is possible, but that is

    16          something that I know.

    17      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, you also know that in Donje Selo, in

    18          addition to automatic rifles and M47 rifles, there were

    19          also three -- there was an anti-aircraft machine-gun and

    20          a mortar launcher above Cerici?

    21      A.  I saw one of those hand held rocket launchers.  I do not

    22          know about two of them being there.  There could have

    23          been ten but I saw only one.

    24      Q.  While you were in hiding in Donje Selo, you know, you

    25          knew that Lazar Cecez spoke on the telephone with Borci;

Page 7143

     1          is that correct?

     2      A.  Not while I was in hiding.  That was before the

     3          conflict.  While we were in hiding we did not have a

     4          telephone, because the telephone lines were down.

     5      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, my colleague showed you a statement which

     6          you had given in January while you were in Musala.

     7      A.  Yes.

     8      Q.  Could you please tell me if you know the name of Jasna

     9          Dzumhur?

    10      A.  Yes.

    11      Q.  And Judge Edina Bektasevic?

    12      A.  No.

    13      Q.  You gave one statement to Jasna Dzumhur?

    14      A.  I may have, but I do not know.

    15      Q.  Without anybody forcing you to do or say anything?

    16      A.  I do not recall giving that statement.

    17      Q.  I would like to ask for the witness to be shown again an

    18          identified statement from 12th January 1993.

    19      THE REGISTRAR:  Could I please see this statement because

    20          I do not have the statement amongst the documents in

    21          front of me.

    22      MS. RESIDOVIC:  The statement from 12th January was one of

    23          the statements presented by my colleague and the witness

    24          identified his handwriting.  I could give you the

    25          statement again, if you have not identified it.

Page 7144

     1      MR. MORAN:  Excuse me, your Honour, I think they are looking

     2          for defendants' Exhibit 25/4.  (Handed).

     3      MS. RESIDOVIC:  On this statement you recognised the date

     4          and your signature.

     5      A.  Yes.

     6      Q.  So please, on the back side, could you see on the top of

     7          the page the signature of Jasna Dzumhur, do you remember

     8          now the circumstances in which you gave this statement?

     9      A.  I do not remember seeing it, because I know Jasna

    10          Dzumhur personally, but I did not see her.

    11      Q.  Not long ago you looked into the content of this

    12          statement and since when I asked you, you gave

    13          affirmative answers regarding all the facts presented

    14          there, could you please once again look at the statement

    15          and tell us exactly which fact in the statement is

    16          incorrect.

    17      A.  If I can have a moment.  (Pause).  There is quite a lot

    18          of truth in this.

    19      Q.  So you recognise this statement as your statement?

    20      A.  Yes, but it is not as an entire statement, it is more or

    21          less a reconstruction.

    22      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Since the witness recognised the statement

    23          and identified it as his, I would like to tender this

    24          statement as a Defence exhibit.

    25      MR. NIEMANN:  I object to that, your Honour.

Page 7145

     1      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Let us hear the basis of your

     2          objection.

     3      MR. NIEMANN:  Yes, your Honour.  These statements were taken

     4          when this man was held prisoner and the conditions under

     5          which he was operating at the time mitigate entirely

     6          against voluntariness and being a statement which was

     7          obtained, so far as his frame of mind is concerned,

     8          under conditions of duress.  There is no objection to

     9          the statements that were not taken under those

    10          conditions, but in my submission, all of the statements

    11          taken whilst he was held prisoner under the conditions

    12          in which he has described, bearing in mind the fact that

    13          this Tribunal, in my submission, should not be seen to

    14          be admitting evidence obtained under these

    15          circumstances, having regard to the interest in the

    16          maintenance of human rights and having regard to the

    17          rules.  It is my submission that it is inappropriate and

    18          contrary to the public interest that they be admitted.

    19      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Your Honour, my client, as well as all the

    20          other persons in detention, are giving statements while

    21          in detention.  The witness did confirm all the facts in

    22          this statement --

    23      A.  Not all of them.

    24      MS. RESIDOVIC:   Except for some minor corrections because

    25          the statement is not a transcript, he confirmed his

Page 7146

     1          signature and we have seen him, we saw what he looked

     2          like at the time, so I believe if the Prosecutor can

     3          prove that the statement was given under duress does

     4          have the right to give such comments.  The Defence in

     5          future will in addition to the Prosecution witness who

     6          confirmed that statements were not given with the use of

     7          force, he would bring other witnesses who would be

     8          heard.  If duress is confirmed, the Defence, same as the

     9          Prosecution, in the light of Rule 95 has the right to

    10          suppress evidence.  Therefore I am offering -- I am

    11          tendering this statement into evidence.

    12      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  We seem to be reversing the onus of

    13          proof about voluntariness.  You are the person tendering

    14          this statement, and it is on you to show it was

    15          voluntary.  If he admits it was not taken voluntarily,

    16          you do not have to consider tendering it, because the

    17          rule is fairly clear on that.  You are assuming that he

    18          is recognising his signature and the circumstances makes

    19          it voluntary.

    20      JUDGE JAN:  Is there a presumption that all statements made

    21          in detention are under duress?

    22      MR. NIEMANN:  No, your Honours.  I am not sure there is any

    23          evidence being brought by the Defence that the guards at

    24          the UN detention centre at Scheveningen are regularly

    25          bashing up prisoners and dragging them around the place

Page 7147

     1          and subjecting them to all sorts of inhumane treatment,

     2          which if they were, would cast doubt on any statements

     3          the Defence wish to tender taken at that place, but

     4          nothing has been said of that so far, so it is only in

     5          relation to circumstances which these witnesses have

     6          attested to in the camps they were at the time.

     7                Your Honours, I raise no objection to the

     8          statement taken in Belgrade where the witness said he

     9          had an opportunity to examine it, he was not under

    10          duress, but there is overwhelming evidence, in my

    11          submission, about the conditions to which these people

    12          were being subjected and anything they say under those

    13          circumstances must be viewed in light of the conditions

    14          under which they were being subjected at the time.

    15      JUDGE JAN:  I think the statement was probably taken at

    16          Musala sports hall, and the evidence with regard to --

    17      MR. NIEMANN:  I do not think it was a very comfortable place

    18          there either, your Honour.  We have not led evidence

    19          because it is not relevant to these proceedings.

    20      JUDGE JAN:  There is not very clear evidence that people

    21          were beaten up in Musala camp.

    22      MR. NIEMANN:  Because, your Honour, if we had led that

    23          evidence, the first objection would have been that it

    24          was irrelevant, because it is not relevant to the

    25          charges in this case, but I am certain we could lead a

Page 7148

     1          great deal of evidence about how unpleasant it was

     2          there.  These people were being kept at that place, and

     3          particularly this particular witness was kept right up

     4          until 1994.  One wonders what the charges were, your

     5          Honour.

     6      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Actually to me, a lot of this argument

     7          is strange and new.  I do not know any circumstance in

     8          which a statement is opposed on grounds of

     9          involuntariness, but the onus is shifted on the person

    10          who is opposing it to show that.  I do not know about

    11          that anywhere.  Whether a detention camp, whatever we

    12          call it, is a place perfectly convenient and congenial

    13          for taking statements of this nature should be satisfied

    14          by this person tendering it, to show that it was

    15          voluntarily done, and the person was perfectly free to

    16          make his statement.  I think that is understandable

    17          anywhere.

    18      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, if I might be able to help just a

    19          second?  Regardless of whether the statement was taken

    20          under duress or not, once the duress is gone, if the

    21          person says, "Yes, I adopt that statement", then I

    22          should think it would be admissible, because any

    23          taint --

    24      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Do not assume that has been done in

    25          this case.

Page 7149

     1      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, he said a few minutes ago that it

     2          was -- I think my notes say that as to that statement

     3          there is a lot of truth in it.  As to others of these

     4          statements, he has said that he had a chance to look at

     5          them in the presence of an investigator from the Office

     6          of the Prosecutor, and he made whatever corrections he

     7          wanted to and so, your Honour, I think that could be

     8          easily viewed as adopting the statement, presuming we

     9          are not saying he is being coerced now.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Actually, I am not arguing it for any

    11          side.  It is for the parties who are presuming that the

    12          statement was either voluntary or by duress to prove the

    13          arguments they are putting forward.  I am in the middle.

    14      MR. MORAN:  What I am suggesting, your Honour --

    15      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I am relying entirely on the arguments

    16          proposed for its admissibility or rejection.

    17      MR. MORAN:  What I am suggesting, your Honour, is that it

    18          does not make any difference whether the original

    19          statement was voluntary if he voluntarily adopts the

    20          statement at some later date.

    21      MR. NIEMANN:  Again we have Mr. Moran volunteering his views

    22          on this matter when counsel, Madam Residovic is already

    23          on her feet dealing with it.  I fail to understand how

    24          Mr. Moran believes he has a right to speak on this matter

    25          at this stage.  No doubt when he is confronted with an

Page 7150

     1          objection he can enlighten us on his views, but I feel

     2          at this stage that it is hardly appropriate, in my

     3          submission, to have two or three counsel jumping up and

     4          arguing these points.  Nevertheless, your Honours, my

     5          submission is that there is no evidence that he has

     6          adopted this statement.  He has already said that the

     7          person Jasna, the judge, whose name my notes are not

     8          clear on, it was not there so far as he is concerned.

     9          How can it be said he has adopted the statement?  In my

    10          submission, your Honour, there is no evidence of that.

    11          He goes further, he says it is not an entire statement,

    12          it is more or less a reconstruction.  My submission is

    13          that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that it

    14          has been adopted.

    15      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Your Honour, we go back to the same thing

    16          several times.  It is correct that we are discussing the

    17          conditions in the camp.  It is true that many persons

    18          were detained because of possession of weapons and armed

    19          rebellion.  It is also true that they were under

    20          investigation.  Those are continuing issues that the

    21          Prosecutor is raising.  The procedure was before the

    22          investigation commission in Celebici and before other

    23          relevant authorities of the Konjic municipality.

    24                Since the witness did say that in Musala, he did

    25          not give the statement under duress, that all the facts

Page 7151

     1          from the statement that could be read here before the

     2          court, he did recognise as facts which he claimed did

     3          happen, and that they are correct, I see no grounds for

     4          objection.  As for the acceptance of this statement as

     5          part of the proceedings against this witness in

     6          Celebici, or later in the municipality of Konjic, so how

     7          else do we prove, your Honour, proceedings if Defence is

     8          unable to present each element of this procedure, and

     9          even when the witness recognises that everything he had

    10          said here may be a sentence or two different because

    11          this is not a transcript, as compared with his answers

    12          to my questions asked before this court.

    13      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  What was your question to him about the

    14          making of this statement?  Did you put it to him that he

    15          made it freely and he had no coercion, no compulsion

    16          when he made this statement?

    17      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Yes, that was the question, did he give the

    18          statement in Musala under duress, he said he did not, he

    19          said he recognised his signature and that he did know

    20          Jasna Dzumhur but that he could not remember if he gave

    21          the statement before her, because there are five

    22          signatures of persons who interviewed this witness on

    23          12th January 1993.  These were the answers of this

    24          witness.  Before that, when asked by me, he confirmed

    25          all the facts contained in this statement.

Page 7152

     1      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Absent involuntariness, then there

     2          might be only other factors that might make it

     3          inadmissible.  If he has not put forward the fact that

     4          it was done involuntarily, then there are only other

     5          factors which might make it inadmissible.

     6      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honour, I am having the transcript checked

     7          at the moment, but I have no record whatsoever that this

     8          witness was asked whether it was taken under duress or

     9          not.

    10      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Mr. Kuljanin, did you give this statement

    11          under duress or not?

    12      A.  I was transferred on 9th December from Celebici to the

    13          sports hall in Musala, that was a prison.  I, as well as

    14          all my other comrades, were never asked whether we

    15          wanted to give the statement or not.  They simply came,

    16          they read out names from a list and they told us to give

    17          statements.  I gave a statement.

    18      Q.  On that occasion, did anybody force you to do anything,

    19          did anybody put pressure on you, did anybody beat you

    20          when you were giving this statement?  I am not talking

    21          about the other statements.

    22      A.  Not on that occasion, nobody hit me.  They did not beat

    23          me, but they beat me mentally in other ways.

    24      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Your Honour, the statement was given

    25          voluntarily in the circumstances of the prison are the

Page 7153

     1          circumstances that you should decide about.  The witness

     2          did confirm that he gave this statement voluntarily,

     3          that he signed it and he certainly was in Celebici and

     4          in Musala.  That is an undisputed fact.  Therefore, I am

     5          proposing that this statement be admitted as this

     6          witness's statement given in Musala in January 1993.

     7      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honours, the witness has said he was

     8          beaten mentally, which means that he was under such

     9          conditions of duress that the whole issue of

    10          voluntariness was beyond him because he was overborne by

    11          the circumstances to which he was subjected.

    12      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  If his own private fears or

    13          premonitions about what might happen to him, without

    14          anybody else making any appearance of subduing his

    15          concerns then perhaps that might be a consideration in

    16          favour of those persons who were questioning him.

    17      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honour, it is not as extreme as having

    18          someone standing behind him with a baseball bat, but --

    19          your Honour is laughing.  I am not sure what your Honour

    20          finds amusing.

    21      JUDGE JAN:  I am very amused by this argument.  Carry on.

    22      MR. NIEMANN:  I was not aware I was being amusing.  Your

    23          Honours, it seems to me that one has to have regard to

    24          the total circumstances under which these people were

    25          being detained.

Page 7154

     1      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Actually, that might merely go to the

     2          weight of it.  If he had volunteered his statement, then

     3          it might not matter what he had behind him for making

     4          the statement.

     5      MR. NIEMANN:  I just ask the court to note that there can be

     6          no cloak of legitimacy put over the circumstances in

     7          which these people were being put, which is being

     8          suggested by Madam Residovic, absolutely no cloak of

     9          legitimacy, but I cannot take the matter any further,

    10          your Honour.

    11      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Yes, you can go ahead.  You can tender

    12          it.  It depends on what weight one gives to such a

    13          statement.  You might like to rely on it, but I do not

    14          know what meaning it has to anybody.

    15      JUDGE JAN:  May I add something?  You talk about my

    16          amusement, you said standing with a baseball bat behind

    17          the person who is making the statement.  There is no

    18          such evidence and I am surprised that you gave that

    19          example.

    20      MR. NIEMANN:  My understanding --

    21      JUDGE JAN:  There is no such evidence that while he was

    22          making that statement, someone was standing behind him

    23          with a baseball bat.

    24      MR. NIEMANN:  There is a previous statement which was taken

    25          under those circumstances.

Page 7155

     1      JUDGE JAN:  -- taking a statement whether we should

     2          introduce it into evidence or not.

     3      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honour, I was saying it was not as serious

     4          as circumstances where someone was standing behind him

     5          with a baseball bat.

     6      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  It has not got to that stage.  What he

     7          might have in mind is perhaps the earlier treatment he

     8          might have had meted to him.  Whether it is a consistent

     9          pattern, after such a treatment where they go and take

    10          you and then you make a statement, there is no such

    11          evidence that a statement is made immediately after

    12          being beaten up, and then they take you and you make a

    13          statement, but in any event, when one is in the

    14          situation of incarceration, for certain proposals it

    15          depends on what the trial judge will make of such a

    16          situation.

    17      MR. NIEMANN:  As your Honours please.

    18      MS. RESIDOVIC:  So, your Honour, I am tendering this

    19          statement as evidence for the Defence.  Is that

    20          accepted?

    21      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Yes, you can.

    22      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Can you give us a number for

    23          identification?

    24      THE REGISTRAR:  The number is D25/4.

    25      MS. RESIDOVIC:  I do apologise, but is that Delalic?

Page 7156

     1      THE REGISTRAR:  This document was submitted by Defence

     2          counsel for Mr. Landzo and that is why it bears the mark

     3          D25/4.

     4      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Mr. Kuljanin, in the statement you gave to

     5          Ms. Manke, representative of OTP, on page 2, you said

     6          that at the moment when you were taken out of the

     7          manhole, in addition to the persons you mentioned before

     8          this court, that Mr. Azinovic was also present, Mr. Ivica

     9          Azinovic; is that correct?

    10      A.  I did not see him, I think he was in the car.  He was

    11          the driver of the van that transported me to building

    12          number 22.  I am sure that Hazim Delic and Pavo Mucic

    13          were there.

    14      Q.  You also said that Ivica Azinovic was present and was

    15          watching while you were being beaten in front of the

    16          infirmary; is that correct?

    17      A.  Yes, several times, not once.  He was the driver, as

    18          I already told you.  He drove that IVECO van.

    19      Q.  Just a few more questions.  The fighting in Donje Selo

    20          took place between 20th and 23rd May; is that correct?

    21      A.  I think so, but it was a long time ago.

    22      Q.  You were presented a statement which you had given

    23          before the court in Visegrad, and which you said you had

    24          no objections to, not while you were giving it nor

    25          later.

Page 7157

     1      A.  No.

     2      Q.  You also said that that statement before the

     3          investigative judge in Visegrad was given within the

     4          process of giving statements for the Association of

     5          Detainees?

     6      A.  Yes.

     7      Q.  The fact that you were giving a statement for the

     8          Association of Detainees --

     9      A.  I thought that this was for the court.

    10      Q.  Did the investigative judge, before you started giving

    11          your statement, did the judge tell you that you were

    12          giving a statement on the basis of a request from the

    13          Association of Detainees?

    14      A.  No, I gave the statement for the court and they then

    15          forwarded the statement to the Association of Detainees.

    16      Q.  Who informed you about the fact that that statement

    17          would be forwarded to the Association of Detainees?

    18      A.  Nobody told me that.

    19      Q.  How do you know that that statement was forwarded to

    20          this Association?

    21      A.  I am not sure about that, but when I saw it here,

    22          I think now that the Association had sent it.

    23      Q.  So this morning when you were answering the questions

    24          asked by my colleague, you were not giving the entire

    25          fact that you had known, so you were not speaking the

Page 7158

     1          whole truth?

     2      MR. NIEMANN:  I object to that question being put, your

     3          Honour.  It is not a question of not speaking the whole

     4          truth.  It may be a question of not giving the full

     5          details of what he could say about the matter.  That is

     6          not necessarily not speaking the whole truth.

     7      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Actually the witness has not said that

     8          he was sure it was being sent to them.  He assumed it

     9          was being sent to them.  That does not mean it was being

    10          sent to them, to the Association of Detainees.  He

    11          assumed that the court was sending it to them.

    12      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Yes, your Honour, but when asked by

    13          colleague Ackerman, the witness said precisely that in

    14          Visegrad he gave the statement for the Association of

    15          Detainees.  That is why I asked additional questions,

    16          and the clarification from the witness is either a

    17          clarification or a different presentation, a different

    18          account.  I would not be going back to this.

    19      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  -- that he made a statement to the

    20          Association of Detainees.  He was summoned to the court

    21          where he made a statement, and the question was, "How

    22          did they know?"  He said he received a summons and went

    23          to the court and made this statement.  To your question

    24          about how the statement got to the Association of

    25          Detainees, he said he was not too sure, but he assumed

Page 7159

     1          it was sent to them.  I do not see much of a discrepancy

     2          in the questions.  The questions were answered in the

     3          order in which they were framed.

     4      MS. RESIDOVIC:  I do apologise if that is the case, because

     5          I firmly believed that I had heard the witness, but I do

     6          accept that it is as you said, your Honour, in the

     7          transcript it is certainly recorded.  Thank you very

     8          much for your warning.  I do apologise if I interpreted

     9          what the witness said differently.

    10                However, Mr. Kuljanin, the first sentence of your

    11          statement given before the judge in Visegrad is the

    12          following:

    13                "In early June 1992 I was in the Serb village of

    14          Cerici near Konjic when the Muslim armed forces attacked

    15          this village on 10th June 1992, and on that occasion

    16          I was taken prisoner together with Miro Golubovic from

    17          Cerici."

    18                Did you say this to the investigative judge?

    19      A.  I told the investigating judge that the attack took

    20          place on the 10th and that I was not arrested then, but

    21          20 maybe days later.

    22      Q.  You also said to the investigators that you and Miro

    23          Golubovic surrendered to Darko Verkic on 9th June; is

    24          that correct?

    25      A.  Yes.

Page 7160

     1      Q.  When I asked you, you responded that the fighting in

     2          Donje Selo took place between 20th and 23rd May.  Are

     3          those totally different events?

     4      A.  I cannot really determine the day.  It was five years

     5          ago.  Whether it was the 8th or the 9th that I was

     6          brought there, I am not sure, but I think it was more

     7          possible that it was the 8th when I was brought to

     8          Celebici.

     9      Q.  In the statement given to the investigative judge, it

    10          says that the attack took place on 10th June.

    11      A.  I said around 10th June, I think it was on about that

    12          date.

    13      Q.  And you have just responded to me --

    14      A.  No, I apologise.

    15      Q.  It was 20th to 23rd --

    16      A.  You got me confused, the attack was in May and

    17          I surrendered on the 7th, 8th or 9th.  It was in 1992,

    18          June, so 15 or 20 days later.

    19      Q.  So if in the statement of the investigative judge given

    20          in Visegrad it says that the attack against Donje Selo

    21          and Cerici was 10th June and on the same day you were

    22          taken prisoner, that is not true?

    23      A.  This is not true, but it was interpreted wrongly.

    24          I said that I had surrendered on the 10th and that the

    25          attack was on 20th or 25th, but it was in May.  Since

Page 7161

     1          I was in hiding for about 15 days after that, in the

     2          woods.

     3      Q.  That is a statement which you read and for which you

     4          said before this court that it did not contain any

     5          incorrect information; is that true?

     6      A.  Well, it is not a very big mistake.

     7      MS. RESIDOVIC:  I would just like to consult my documents,

     8          your Honours.  (Pause).

     9                Just a question I did not understand clearly.

    10          Drasko Dragovic, you gave an automatic rifle to him?

    11      A.  I did not give him a rifle, he had a rifle.

    12      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Just a moment, your Honour.  I think I am

    13          about to finish my part of the cross-examination.

    14          I would just like to look into another thing.

    15                Could you please confirm for us that I have an

    16          Ivica Azinovic, President of HVO Konjic, was there at

    17          that time?

    18      A.  I know him.

    19      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Thank you very much.  I have no further

    20          questions.  Thank you.

    21      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you very much.  Any other

    22          cross-examination?

    23                        Cross-examined by MR. OLUJIC

    24      Q.  With your permission, your Honours.

    25                Good day, Mr. Kuljanin.  My name is Zeljko Olujic,

Page 7162

     1          I am an attorney from Zagreb, I am Defence counsel for

     2          Mr. Zdravko Mucic.  You have mentioned him during the

     3          examination-in-chief and the cross-examination.  I would

     4          like this conversation between the two of us to be

     5          carried out in a technically appropriate manner and that

     6          means, since we speak languages that we both understand,

     7          I speak Croatian and you speak Serbian, we have to wait

     8          for the interpretation into both English and French so

     9          as to avoid the appearance that we are conducting a

    10          dialogue and to allow the Trial Chamber and all of us in

    11          the courtroom, both on the Prosecution side and the

    12          Defence side, so that they can follow the

    13          cross-examination.  Are we in agreement?

    14      A.  Yes.

    15      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, I am sorry to hear that you have been in

    16          The Hague for a week.  This has taken rather long, so

    17          I will try to cut down my questions to a minimum and

    18          I ask for your patience so that you are able to go back

    19          to your home.

    20      A.  Thank you.

    21      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, you said that you had done your national

    22          service and I mean JNA, from the former State, that you

    23          did national service in 1990 and 1991, or 1991 to 1992.

    24      A.  I went in June 1990 and I returned in June 1991.

    25      Q.  After that you went to the reserve?

Page 7163

     1      A.  Yes.

     2      Q.  How long did you spend in the reserve forces?

     3      A.  A month and a half or two, I do not know exactly.

     4      Q.  Did you have a rank?

     5      A.  Yes.

     6      Q.  Which branch of the army were you?

     7      A.  Infantry, rear.

     8      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, you described when you were arrested -- you

     9          described in detail the circumstances of the arrest

    10          itself.  I would like to know, did the persons wear

    11          uniforms?

    12      A.  Yes, they wore camouflage uniforms.

    13      Q.  These persons, did they address each other using ranks?

    14      A.  I did not notice that, just names.

    15      Q.  When you came to Celebici, did the guards have uniforms?

    16      A.  No.

    17      Q.  How were they dressed?

    18      A.  In different clothing, camouflage trousers and just T

    19          shirts as tops.

    20      Q.  Can we then say that this was not a proper uniform?

    21      A.  Yes.

    22      Q.  And the guards, did they use ranks when addressing each

    23          other?

    24      A.  No, just first names.

    25      Q.  In the camp itself, was there a lack of discipline among

Page 7164

     1          the guards?

     2      A.  Yes.

     3      Q.  Were the guards punished for lack of discipline?

     4      A.  I did not see that, maybe yes, maybe there was.

     5      Q.  During the examination-in-chief, Mr. Kuljanin, you

     6          mentioned that you would have been killed if it had not

     7          been for Zdravko Mucic who transferred you to the

     8          infirmary.

     9      A.  Yes, that is correct.

    10      Q.  Does that mean that by doing so, Mr. Mucic acted in a

    11          humane manner by transferring you there and saving your

    12          life?

    13      A.  That is correct.

    14      Q.  You also said during the examination-in-chief that you

    15          were physically abused and it was really hard to listen

    16          to all that you have been through.  It is not easy.  But

    17          I would like to ask you to answer just one more

    18          question.  In addition to the physical abuse that you

    19          were subjected to, during the examination-in-chief you

    20          mentioned that you were also abused by other passers-by;

    21          is that correct?

    22      A.  Yes, passers-by.

    23      Q.  Now I would like to ask you, Mr. Kuljanin who were those

    24          persons, those passers-by, who did you mean when you

    25          used that term?

Page 7165

     1      A.  Those were members of different units from Sarajevo to

     2          Mostar, those small groups, intervention units, people

     3          whom I had not seen before in my life, nor did I know

     4          their names.

     5      Q.  Does that mean, Mr. Kuljanin, that in addition to the

     6          guards who were in the camp, that other military units

     7          also passed through the camp?

     8      A.  Yes.

     9      Q.  Were those various units?

    10      A.  Yes.

    11      Q.  Did they obey the commands of the gentlemen who were in

    12          the camp or did they act whichever way they wanted?

    13      A.  They acted in their own way, they acted as they wanted

    14          to.

    15      Q.  Thank you.  Mr. Kuljanin, can you dismantle a rifle?

    16      A.  Yes, I do.

    17      Q.  Can you fire a rifle?

    18      A.  Yes, I do.

    19      Q.  Can you do that quickly?  Are you able to dismantle and

    20          reassemble a rifle very quickly?

    21      A.  I do not know, I have not tried it.

    22      Q.  Do you know how many bullets, rounds are there in a

    23          Kalashnikov?

    24      A.  30.  That was the weapon I signed out in the army.

    25          I know that.

Page 7166

     1      MR. OLUJIC:  Just a moment.  (Pause).  Well, that will be

     2          all, Mr. Kuljanin.  I wish you a pleasant trip.

     3      A.  Thank you.

     4      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour it always seems to take a while to

     5          get wired up over here for some reason.

     6      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  It makes it easier for you.

     7      MR. MORAN:  Thank you very much for the time, your Honour.

     8          May it please the court?

     9      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Go on.

    10                         Cross-examined by MR. MORAN

    11      Q.  Good afternoon, Mr. Kuljanin.

    12      A.  Good afternoon.

    13      Q.  My name is Tom Moran and I represent Hazim Delic in this

    14          case.  The first thing I would like to ask you is you

    15          have had a long day today and I understand that.  If for

    16          any reason you feel tired or fatigued or if you need a

    17          drink of water or to take a break, you let me know and

    18          we will see if we can arrange it, okay?

    19      A.  As far as I am concerned, we can continue.

    20      Q.  Great.  But if we come to a point where you are feeling

    21          fatigued or you just need to sit back for a minute, let

    22          me know and we will see if we can get you a break.

    23                Like all the other lawyers that have talked to

    24          you, I would like you to agree to listen to my questions

    25          and answer the question that is asked.  It sometimes

Page 7167

     1          requires a yes or no, but sometimes might require some

     2          explanation.  Can you do that for me, sir?

     3      A.  Of course.

     4      Q.  Like all lawyers, sometimes I do not ask the clearest

     5          questions in the world, and if I ask a question that you

     6          do not understand, nobody is trying to confuse you here,

     7          so if you are confused, please stop me and we will work

     8          out the question so you understand what I am looking

     9          for.  Can you do that for me, sir?

    10      A.  Of course.

    11      Q.  Okay, that is great.  One other thing, you have been

    12          real good about this so far, but it is just my habit to

    13          point it out, sometimes you nod, there is two ladies in

    14          the courtroom, one over here and one over there who are

    15          what are called court reporters.  They have to write

    16          down everything we say.  They cannot write down a nod.

    17          We have to sometimes think --

    18      A.  I just have to listen?  It is a habit.

    19      Q.  I understand, sir.  No one is trying to press you on

    20          that, it is just that sometimes we forget that these

    21          court reporters are there.

    22                The first thing I would like to ask you is this,

    23          sir: I understand you were examined by a physician five

    24          days ago; is that right?

    25      A.  Yes.

Page 7168

     1      Q.  Where was that examination?

     2      A.  Here in the hospital in The Hague.

     3      Q.  And the Prosecutor arranged for that examination; is

     4          that right?

     5      A.  I requested that because I was in considerable pain and

     6          the Prosecution allowed me to go to a hospital.

     7      Q.  You are feeling better now, sir?  You are feeling all

     8          right?

     9      A.  Yes, it is not bad.  It is better.

    10      Q.  Okay, sir.  Are you taking any medication right now?

    11      A.  Not at the time.

    12      Q.  Okay.  Were you taking any medication yesterday, perhaps

    13          pain killers or anything like that?

    14      A.  No.

    15      Q.  You testified earlier today that that man who was with

    16          you, Dr. Jovanovic?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  He is your personal physician, and sir, I am not asking

    19          you what your diagnosis is and I am not asking you to

    20          tell me anything that would be what you would consider

    21          to be an invasion of your privacy, I am just going to

    22          ask you one question that just requires a yes or no.

    23          Does any of your treatment with this physician have

    24          anything to do with any kind of disease, defect,

    25          whatever, that would interfere with your ability to

Page 7169

     1          recall events that occurred in the past or to recount

     2          those events?

     3      A.  No.

     4      Q.  Okay.  That is a fair answer, sir.  That was all I was

     5          asking for.  By the way, does he have anything to do

     6          with Mr. Draganic, do you know, Rajko Draganic that was

     7          here?

     8      A.  No.

     9      Q.  Okay.  So when you were all together last night, that

    10          was pure happenstance, I take it?

    11      A.  Yes, that is correct.

    12      Q.  Okay, fair enough.  By the way, did you talk to anybody

    13          over lunch about this case, perhaps Mr. Niemann or one of

    14          the investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor or

    15          Dr. Jovanovic or anybody like that?

    16      A.  No, we only had lunch.

    17      Q.  Okay.  Dr. Jovanovic, by the way, is a member of the

    18          Association of Detainees, is he not?

    19      A.  Yes, he is a member.

    20      Q.  You became his patient -- did the association refer you

    21          to him?

    22      A.  Yes, the association sent him here with me.

    23      Q.  Okay.  He's been your treating physician for some time?

    24      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I do not think he understood your

    25          question.

Page 7170

     1      MR. MORAN:  Okay.  Let me try and -- I think you might have

     2          misunderstood the question.  Judge Karibi-Whyte thinks

     3          so.  Let me try it again and see if we can get it

     4          straight.  When you initially went to Dr. Jovanovic,

     5          presumably you did not know him before you became his

     6          patient and he did not know you; is that right?

     7      A.  No.

     8      Q.  You did know him before you became his patient?

     9      A.  No, I did not know him.

    10      Q.  Was it the Association that suggested that you go to

    11          him?

    12      A.  The Association sent him as my escort.

    13      Q.  Okay, but before you came here, what I am trying to ask,

    14          sir, is this: the very first time you became his patient

    15          back in however many months ago it was that you started

    16          seeing him for treatment, was it the Association of

    17          Detainees that recommended that -- said "Dr. Jovanovic is

    18          a good guy, go see him", that kind of thing?

    19      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Is it not more "how did he become his

    20          doctor?"

    21      A.  I apologise, but this doctor is a doctor with the

    22          Association.  Dr. Jovanovic is with the Association, just

    23          like Dr. Bjelica is a doctor with the Association.  They

    24          work for the Association.

    25      MR. MORAN:  Okay, that is fine.  That was all I was trying to

Page 7171

     1          get at, sir.  Do you know, sir, if there was any reason

     2          why he would have been here yesterday to watch

     3          Mr. Draganic's testimony?  He is not his escort, is he?

     4      A.  No.

     5      Q.  Okay.  Something else and if you think that -- again if

     6          you think I am getting into a matter that invades your

     7          privacy, let me know and I will either withdraw the

     8          question or go into private session so no one outside

     9          the court can hear it.  Let me just preface my question

    10          with this: I have been informed by the Victims and

    11          Witnesses Unit of the Tribunal that as a general rule

    12          they do not pay for or authorise people to pay for, or

    13          they will not reimburse an escort for someone to come to

    14          The Hague to testify, and that the general rule is that

    15          they have escorts authorised for people that are ill,

    16          infirm, maybe somebody that is elderly and cannot get

    17          around.  What I am getting at is there has to be a good

    18          reason for it.

    19                Do you know why the Victims and Witnesses Unit

    20          authorised you to have an escort, if in fact they did?

    21      A.  I think it was due to my condition, the condition I am

    22          in.

    23      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, in the interests of not invading the

    24          man's privacy any more, I am going to change the

    25          subject.

Page 7172

     1      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you very much.

     2      MR. MORAN:  If the court wishes me to follow up, I will.

     3      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  If it is your case, but as much as

     4          possible, you avoid questions which might be undesirable

     5          unless you really need it.

     6      MR. MORAN:  Again in the interests of this witness's privacy

     7          I think we can go on to something else.

     8                Let me go to the time when you immediately got to

     9          Celebici.  As I recall your testimony, and I think you

    10          just testified to it again a couple of minutes ago, as

    11          soon as you got to Celebici, a Muslim policeman, you

    12          have no idea who it was, attacked you with a knife while

    13          you were still in the car; do I have your testimony

    14          right?

    15      A.  Yes, while we were sitting there in the car.

    16      Q.  Were there a whole lot of soldiers around the entrance

    17          at the time you got there?

    18      A.  Well, all told there were maybe 15 or 20 of them.

    19      Q.  Did they look like they were -- sir, you were in the JNA

    20          and the JNA was a fairly disciplined army.

    21      A.  Yes.

    22      Q.  You know what a disciplined army was or is.  Did these

    23          guys look disciplined, or were they out of control?

    24      A.  The people who were there when I got there, I think they

    25          were out of control.

Page 7173

     1      Q.  After this man attacked you with a knife, you said

     2          Mr. Delic, and who else hustled you away from there?

     3      A.  Yes, after five minutes.

     4      Q.  And they protected you from -- I presume you were scared

     5          when this guy came at you with a knife?

     6      A.  Well, I was surprised, of course.

     7      Q.  I presume you thought that the guy --

     8      A.  He was drunk.

     9      Q.  So you had a drunk with a knife that was coming at you

    10          to attack you, and Mr. Delic got you away from that, did

    11          he not?

    12      A.  In the manhole.

    13      Q.  That is right.  He got you to some place where that man

    14          with a knife could not get at you; is that right?

    15      A.  Yes, he took me to the manhole.

    16      Q.  That is true.  Nobody is denying that.  He got you to a

    17          place --

    18      A.  I just wanted to tell you where he brought me to.

    19      Q.  He brought you to the manhole and he put you down the

    20          manhole, no question about it.  What I am suggesting to

    21          you, sir, is that while you were in that manhole, that

    22          undisciplined mob of people, including the drunk

    23          policeman with a knife, were unable to harm you; is that

    24          a fair assessment?

    25      A.  No, they could not get into the manhole.

Page 7174

     1      Q.  That is right, so they could not harm you; is that fair?

     2      A.  Yes, I just do not know who had the key, whoever had the

     3          key was the person who protected us.

     4      Q.  And that when you were released from the manhole, what a

     5          day and a night and a day later, right, so about 24 to

     6          36 hours later, is that about how long you were there?

     7      A.  Yes, thereabouts.

     8      Q.  When you were released from that manhole, was that

     9          drunken mob of undisciplined people with knives and guns

    10          still around?

    11      A.  They were not there right next to the manhole, but they

    12          were still there.  There were a few of them.

    13      Q.  Did they look like they were under a little bit more

    14          control, a little bit more disciplined?

    15      A.  It did not look to me like that.

    16      Q.  Okay.  Sir, you have talked to everybody up here about

    17          the statements, the previous statements you have made.

    18          I do not want to beat a dead horse, but I am afraid

    19          I will have to do it a little bit.  I know you are tired

    20          of hearing about this, but I would like to talk about a

    21          couple of things.  The first thing is, when you met with

    22          Mr. Niemann --

    23      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I think we should break now.

    24      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, thank you very much.

    25      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  At 4.30 you can start with that topic.

Page 7175

     1      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, I will beat that dead horse when we

     2          return.

     3      (4.00 pm)

     4                              (A short break)

     5      (4.30 pm)

     6      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Mr. Moran, you may proceed.

     7      MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honours, before he begins, may I make a

     8          request to the court?  After today, there will be

     9          nothing before the Trial Chamber tomorrow or Friday that

    10          has any impact on Mr. Landzo.  He has asked that he be

    11          excused from attendance on Thursday and Friday.

    12          Ms. McMurrey and I have no objection to that if the court

    13          has no objection to it.

    14      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I suppose before we close today we will

    15          tell you what the decision is.

    16      MR. ACKERMAN:  Thank you, your Honour.  I wanted to mention

    17          it now, because I was afraid I would forget it by 5.30.

    18      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, so I do not forget it, Mr. Delic is

    19          in the same position and asks to be excused also.  In

    20          any case, may it please the court.

    21      JUDGE JAN:  One witness is on his way to The Hague.

    22      THE INTERPRETER:   Microphone, your Honour, please.

    23      MR. NIEMANN:  That is correct, your Honour.  There is

    24          a witness coming.

    25      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  You are expecting a witness?

Page 7176

     1      MR. NIEMANN:  There is one on his way, but he will not be

     2          arriving until late tonight.

     3      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I think this complicates the matter.

     4          Since we are expecting a witness who is likely to come,

     5          it is important we take that witness, if he arrives.

     6      MR. MORAN:  I understand, your Honour.

     7      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  So tomorrow, perhaps they have to wait

     8          until we know what the position is tomorrow.

     9      MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honour, I was aware that there is another

    10          witness coming.  It is my understanding that that

    11          witness has absolutely nothing to say about Mr. Landzo,

    12          has no idea who he is or anything else and is not being

    13          called as a witness against Mr. Landzo.  That is the

    14          reason I made the request the way I did.  I was aware of

    15          the witness at the time I made the request.

    16      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I suppose it might still be difficult

    17          for the Trial Chamber to decide that nothing will affect

    18          him from the evidence.  You never can say.

    19      MR. MORAN:  That is fine, your Honour.  Thank you very much

    20          for the consideration on that.

    21                Good afternoon again, sir.

    22      A.  Good afternoon.

    23      Q.  Let me ask you this about one of your statements and

    24          I am not going to show it to you, but remember when you

    25          were meeting with Mr. Niemann, the Prosecutor, those

Page 7177

     1          three times?

     2      A.  Yes.

     3      Q.  He went over the statement that you gave Sabina Manke

     4          back in February 1996 with you, went over it in great

     5          detail, did he not?

     6      A.  Well, one could say that.

     7      Q.  You spent, what, about three or four hours going over

     8          it, so that is pretty good detail.

     9      A.  No.

    10      MR. NIEMANN:  I object to that, your Honour.  That is not

    11          what the witness said.  The witness said it was for an

    12          hour and a half.

    13      MR. MORAN:  I am sorry, an hour and a half going over it, so

    14          in fairly good detail?

    15      A.  It all --

    16      Q.  What I am getting it, sir, is this: having read my

    17          statement yourself and having listened to your

    18          testimony, there were several places in your statement

    19          where, for whatever reason, there was a mix-up between a

    20          man named Osman Dedic and Hazim Delic.  Do you recall

    21          some of those incidents?

    22      A.  It was their mistake, not mine.

    23      Q.  I understand.  No one is saying you did anything wrong,

    24          sir.  No one is criticising you at all, okay?  What I am

    25          asking you is this: was Mr. Niemann aware of those

Page 7178

     1          problems with your statement when he talked to you in

     2          private?

     3      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honour, I object to that.  I am not sure

     4          how the witness would know what I was aware of and what

     5          my problems were.

     6      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, let me rephrase this.  Did you make

     7          Mr. Niemann aware of the problems in the statement where

     8          Mr. Dedic and Mr. Delic had their identities confused?

     9      A.  I know the difference between Osman Dedic and Hazim

    10          Delic very well.  Perhaps Mr. Niemann ...

    11      Q.  Perhaps he did not understand the difference or perhaps

    12          it was not clear to him, is that what you are saying,

    13          sir?

    14      A.  It is possible.

    15      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I do not know what you have in mind.

    16          Is it not the evidence that determines where either of

    17          them comes in?  One is a guard and the other is not a

    18          guard.

    19      MR. MORAN:  That is correct, your Honour.  In fact, I am not

    20          going to tender the statement.  I was just bringing

    21          before the court that there was some confusion over the

    22          names, for instance, there was an incident yesterday

    23          afternoon right before the afternoon break where the

    24          last question was something, the answer was Osman Dedic

    25          was involved in a beating and the first question after

Page 7179

     1          the break was "Mr. Delic ..." And then the witness quite

     2          properly corrected the questioner.  I just wanted to

     3          make clear to everyone that that had occurred.

     4                Sir, that was not the first time that you had a

     5          chance to go over that statement that you gave

     6          Ms. Manke, was it?

     7      A.  I have gone through it.

     8      Q.  You went through it with her back in November 14th last

     9          year, did you not?

    10      A.  Yes.

    11      Q.  And had the chance to make any corrections you wanted?

    12      A.  I think I did that.

    13      Q.  Yes, you made some corrections in some other

    14          statements.  According to your statement, and I will be

    15          happy to provide you with a Bosnian Serbian translation

    16          of it, that you were shown the statements that were

    17          given to the Bosnian authorities on 7th February 1994

    18          and to the authorities in Visegrad, that would have been

    19          the Serbian court, on 3rd February 1995, which actually

    20          was 1996, and you made, I believe --

    21      A.  Yes.

    22      Q.  -- two changes to those statements and one paragraph or

    23          two paragraphs clarifying things.  Is that a fair

    24          assessment?

    25      A.  I do not know what the question is.

Page 7180

     1      Q.  Okay.  Perhaps with a little help from the usher, if we

     2          could mark this as Delic exhibit whatever, whatever our

     3          next one is.

     4      THE REGISTRAR:  The document is D11/3.

     5      MR. MORAN:  Okay, sir.  If you just want to read that it will

     6          help you refresh your memory about what you were shown

     7          back then.  (Pause).  Sir, if you take my word for it,

     8          that is a Serbian translation that is from the Office of

     9          the Prosecutor.  I would be glad to show you the

    10          original in English with your signature on it, if you

    11          would like.

    12      A.  I am supposed to say?

    13      Q.  I am just asking you -- okay.  Look at the first

    14          paragraph --

    15      A.  This is a correction that I requested in the statement.

    16      Q.  Okay.

    17      A.  That he did not tell me -- that it was not Zdravko Mucic

    18          who told me to enter the manhole, it was Hazim Delic.

    19      Q.  Yes, sir.  What I am getting at, sir -- you are getting

    20          ahead of me here.  Let us back off a second.  According

    21          to this statement, you were shown three statements by

    22          Ms. Manke, the statement that you gave to her on

    23          February 23rd; the statement that you gave to the

    24          Bosnian authorities on February 7th 1994; and the

    25          statement you gave in Visegrad to the Serbian

Page 7181

     1          investigating magistrate.  Is that not what the first

     2          paragraph seems to say?

     3      A.  I only received one statement from Ms. Manke.

     4      Q.  So Ms. Manke only showed you one and there were

     5          corrections to -- or the possibility --

     6      A.  To the Bosnian authorities.  I think that was the one.

     7      Q.  So just the statement that you made on February

     8          7th 1994, that is the only one that you saw; is that

     9          right?

    10      A.  I do not remember the dates when I gave them.  Okay, it

    11          was extensive perhaps, those were actually two

    12          statements, but I understood that to be one.

    13      Q.  Let me see if we can help you out.  If the usher could

    14          show you Prosecution Exhibits 176 and 177?  Those should

    15          be the Serbian versions of a statement that you gave on

    16          February 7th 1994.

    17      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honour, my records indicate that 176 is

    18          15th January 1994.  177 is 7th February, so

    19          therefore ...

    20      MR. MORAN:  I think he needs to have both of them,

    21          Mr. Niemann.

    22      MR. NIEMANN:  I just thought --

    23      MR. MORAN:  I understand.  You are correct though.  His

    24          records are correct, your Honour.  I am just trying to

    25          save the usher a trip.

Page 7182

     1                When Ms. Manke showed you all these statements

     2          back in November of last year, did she show you both of

     3          those or just one of them, or do you remember?

     4      A.  I cannot remember precisely.

     5      Q.  The reason I say that is, and maybe you can help me with

     6          this, if you go to the statement that you gave her, that

     7          one page statement I handed you a little while ago, the

     8          very first statement I handed you, D11/3, if you go down

     9          to the second paragraph, it says that you want to make a

    10          correction in your statement of February 7th to page 1,

    11          paragraph 2, where you say it should read, and then if

    12          you look at Prosecution Exhibit 177, it fits, the

    13          correction you want to make fits.  You have what the

    14          statement should be.  Do you want to take a look at

    15          those two and compare them and see if that is fair?

    16      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Is it your question that he has

    17          corrected the statement of 7th February?

    18      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, just to get right to the heart of

    19          the matter, the next paragraph which does not mention

    20          anything at all about the 15th January statement,

    21          contains a correction to the 15th January statement.

    22      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  This one refers to 7th February.

    23      MR. MORAN:  Yes, your Honour, that is correct.

    24      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  So what he is supposed to have

    25          corrected is that statement of 7th February.

Page 7183

     1      MR. MORAN:  Yes, your Honour, and the next statement which in

     2          his November 14th statement to the OTP, the next

     3          paragraph is quoted at length, a sentence from it, and

     4          in fact that sentence is not in Prosecution Exhibit 177,

     5          the 7th February statement, it is in the 15th January

     6          statement, which would seem to indicate that he has had

     7          access to more than just those three statements that

     8          were here.

     9      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I assume a progressive correction has

    10          been made to each of them.

    11      MR. MORAN:  Yes, your Honour.  The point is that he did have

    12          the chance to correct any of these statements.

    13      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  The January one and the February

    14          statement.

    15      MR. MORAN:  At least those two.  I want to find out how many

    16          more of these he had a chance to correct.

    17                Sir, will you take my word for it, so we can save

    18          ourselves a lot of time, that if you look at your

    19          statement to Ms. Manke from November of last year, it

    20          contains corrections to two different statements you

    21          gave to the Bosnia authorities, one which is Prosecution

    22          Exhibit 176, a January 15th statement, and the other

    23          which is Prosecution Exhibit 177, a February

    24          7th statement?  Will you take my word for that?  If not,

    25          I will be happy to go through it with you.  If it would

Page 7184

     1          help the Prosecution, they seem to be looking for it,

     2          your Honour, the paragraph that is corrected in the

     3          15th January statement is the last paragraph of the

     4          first page , starts off "Verkic joined in the meantime

     5          by Pavo Mucic".  It reads directly into the correction

     6          in the OTP statement.

     7                Sir, would you agree with me that you have

     8          probably had access to more than one of the statements

     9          you gave the Bosnian authorities when you talked to

    10          Ms. Manke back in February -- excuse me, back in

    11          November of last year?  It appears that that is

    12          correct.

    13      A.  I think that I had made a correction in that and I said

    14          exactly what happened, the statements taken by the

    15          Bosnian authorities for me are not of any significance,

    16          because they deliberately missed out the names.  Instead

    17          of Hazim Delic, they put the name of Pavo Mucic,

    18          Zdravko.  That was not an accident, that was done

    19          deliberately.

    20      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honours, just in relation to the statement

    21          of 15th January 1994, what I have in the statement that

    22          I have is "Verkic who had been joined by Pavo Mucic, the

    23          commander of the prison, in the meantime ordered us to

    24          get out of the car and go down into the manhole", which

    25          is in some ways quite different to the other one.  There

Page 7185

     1          are similarities, but it is not precisely the same.

     2          Just to draw that to counsel's attention.

     3      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I suppose, is that not what is being

     4          corrected when Ms. Manke went over it with him?

     5      MR. MORAN:  Actually, your Honour, what I think occurred is

     6          the statement to Ms. Manke says "here is the sentence

     7          which needs to be corrected" and, therefore, admittedly

     8          a couple of minor differences in the wording, I think

     9          they have to do with translation and stylistic matters,

    10          as opposed to substance.  Substantially they are the

    11          same sentence.  I would be happy to introduce my one

    12          copy of the English version of November 14th --

    13      MR. NIEMANN:  That might be so, your Honour, but I do not

    14          think you can say that one is identical with the other

    15          therefore it is obviously the statement of the 15th.

    16          The point I make is that it is not identical.  In other

    17          words, there may be a similar sense to it, it may be

    18          speaking of the same topic and, indeed, it may be

    19          covering the same point, but you cannot say one is

    20          identical with the other when they are not.

    21      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I thought counsel was trying to reflect

    22          on the fact that the November exercise was intended to

    23          correct certain things in January and February.

    24      MR. NIEMANN:  I think the point, as I understand it he is

    25          saying that the statement that was corrected was, in

Page 7186

     1          fact, the statement of 15th January 1994, and he says

     2          that is so because he says there are paragraphs -- the

     3          paragraph is the same.  The point I make is that the

     4          paragraph is not the same.  It is about the same topic,

     5          I agree with that, but the words are not exactly the

     6          same.  He cannot say for sure that that is what this

     7          statement is.

     8      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  What does the correction read, because

     9          that might help?

    10      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, I will read the whole thing to the

    11          court, or we can put it on the ELMO so everyone can see

    12          it.  Whatever makes the court happy.  I am flexible on

    13          this.  The statement given to Ms. Manke last November,

    14          the paragraph reads:

    15                "In my statement to the BH authorities, page 1,

    16          paragraph 4, sentence 1, the facts are not correctly

    17          laid down:

    18                'Verkic meanwhile joined by Pavo Mucic, the

    19          commander of the prison, ordered us to get out of the

    20          car and go town into the tank.'

    21                "Pavo Mucic did not order me to get out of the car

    22          and go into the tank, I only heard his voice later when

    23          Verkic and Delic had already put me in the manhole.

    24          Verkic is the driver I am referring to in my statement

    25          to the ICTY."

Page 7187

     1                Your Honour, if you go to paragraph 4, sentence 1

     2          of the statement dated 15th January 1994, which is

     3          Prosecution Exhibit 176, it reads:

     4                "Verkic, joined in the meantime by Pavo Mucic the

     5          commander of the prison" --

     6      THE INTERPRETER:   Would counsel please slow down a bit.

     7      MR. MORAN:  Let me start over:

     8                "Verkic, joined in the meantime by Pavo Mucic,

     9          the commander of the prison, ordered us to get out of

    10          the van and into the manhole."

    11                Your Honour, I submit that given the stylistic

    12          changes in translation from English to Serbian and

    13          Serbian to English, that that is the same sentence that

    14          is referred to in his statement to Ms. Manke.

    15      A.  Yes, but it is not the same person.

    16      Q.  Clearly, and you were allowed to make any corrections

    17          you wanted to in those statements that you made to the

    18          Bosnian authorities, right?

    19      A.  Never.  How can I make corrections?

    20      Q.  When you met with Ms. Manke back last November she gave

    21          you the chance to make corrections.  You made at least

    22          two, did you not?

    23      A.  And I did correct it.

    24      Q.  Sure.  Anything that was wrong with those statements you

    25          fixed, did you not?

Page 7188

     1      A.  I remember that exact moment very well when it comes to

     2          the entry into the manhole.

     3      Q.  Sure.  When you went over those statements --

     4      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Excuse me, but how can she make

     5          corrections of statements she did not take?

     6      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, what she did was -- from reading her

     7          statement and this is reading between the lines, he was

     8          given a chance to add and/or clarify those statements,

     9          which is the words out of his statement.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Statements made to some other

    11          authority.

    12      MR. MORAN:  Yes, your Honour.  The Office of the Prosecutor

    13          provided him with at least one of these statements,

    14          according to the witness statement that he gave to

    15          Ms. Manke, or in some way, shape or form, he was given

    16          a chance by Ms. Manke in a statement taken by the OTP

    17          in November of last year to add to, clarify, correct

    18          clearly the statement of 7th February, which is

    19          Prosecution 177, I submit Prosecution 176, and also the

    20          statement made to the investigating magistrate in

    21          Visegrad.

    22      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honours, might I raise a matter at this

    23          stage?  As I pointed out previously, if counsel reads

    24          the second paragraph of the statement, rather than

    25          reading between the lines, one can see what is there.

Page 7189

     1          It says:

     2                "I did not believe that I could add the entire and

     3          complete truth to the statements that I gave to the

     4          Bosnian authorities."

     5                That is completely contrary to what counsel is

     6          asserting.

     7      MR. MORAN:  I am saying that he says in his statement, the

     8          very first paragraph:

     9                "I would like to add and to clarify the

    10          following:"

    11      MR. NIEMANN:  Exactly right, your Honour and specifies what

    12          the following are.  Counsel is reading into this

    13          statement more than is there.  He is trying to suggest

    14          that a complete revision of the statement was done, it

    15          was not.  There were a couple of issues that wanted to

    16          be clarified and that was done.  He says in the second

    17          paragraph:

    18                "I did not believe that I could add the entire and

    19          complete truth to the statements that I gave to the

    20          Bosnian authorities."

    21                In my submission that makes the whole issue quite

    22          clear.

    23      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, our position is that he had a chance

    24          to change whatever he wanted to.  The Prosecution said

    25          "here, tell us what is wrong with it".

Page 7190

     1      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Do you not think that is strange?  It

     2          was not a statement made to the Prosecution.

     3      MR. MORAN:  Actually, your Honour, if I were the Prosecutor

     4          and I had a statement that was given to -- you knew you

     5          were going to have to give in discovery and I knew that

     6          there were some factual errors in that statement,

     7          I would try and get something to correct that statement

     8          with factual errors in.

     9      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  The statement he made to someone else?

    10      MR. MORAN:  The statement he made to whoever, but in any

    11          case, your Honour, we can go on to another subject.

    12                Sir, I am a little confused about something,

    13          I think the record is not real clear and I would like to

    14          see if you could maybe help me with this.  That

    15          statement that you gave in Visegrad to the investigating

    16          magistrate, okay?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  That was done at the behest of either the document

    19          centre or the Association of Detainees, was it not?

    20      A.  I do not know.  I was summoned to the court.

    21      Q.  Let me tell you, sir, why I wanted to probe into that a

    22          little bit.  This morning, the transcript, and it is the

    23          LiveNote's transcript, starting at page 17, line 25, if

    24          the Prosecution wants to check my reading, you have

    25          question by Mr. Niemann:

Page 7191

     1                "Do you remember the circumstances of the document

     2          being created?"

     3                Do you remember him asking that question, sir?

     4      A.  Yes.

     5      Q.  Do you remember your answer to that, because I can help

     6          you with it.  I have it off the transcript.

     7      A.  I think I said the same thing that I said a minute ago,

     8          that I had been summoned to give a statement, that I had

     9          received a summons from the court.

    10      Q.  Actually, what the transcript taken down by that court

    11          reporter says is:

    12                "Answer: yes.  I was invited by the investigators

    13          from the documentation centre and the Association of

    14          Detainees in Belgrade and that is this statement.

    15          I gave this statement in the court building of the

    16          Visegrad municipality."

    17                Do you remember that being your answer, sir?

    18      A.  Yes, but I am just explaining to you how I came to be at

    19          the court.  I received a summons to appear before the

    20          court.  I do not know who told them to do that.

    21      Q.  So when you were answering Mr. Niemann's question this

    22          morning, did you not understand the question, when you

    23          talked about the Association of Detainees and the

    24          documentation centre, or was that just a slip of the

    25          tongue: what was it, sir?

Page 7192

     1      A.  As far as I can remember I said that I thought that it

     2          was at the request of the Association of Detainees, that

     3          that was how it came to be that I gave this statement to

     4          the court.  I did not say that they sought that

     5          statement.

     6      Q.  Okay, so --

     7      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  You can now link the answer to your

     8          question.

     9      MR. MORAN:  Yes, sir.  The answer is -- sir, did this -- I do

    10          not think the record is still real clear.  I would like

    11          to just clarify it just a bit.

    12      A.  It is fine with me.

    13      Q.  This morning, reading that answer that I just read to

    14          you, it seems to me that you thought you were giving, or

    15          at least you were telling Mr. Niemann and you wanted the

    16          judges to believe that you were giving -- you were

    17          invited by the investigators from the documentation

    18          centre and the Association to give a statement and

    19          then --

    20      A.  I said --

    21      Q.  Excuse me just a second.  Then you say that the reason

    22          you went there was because you got this summons from the

    23          court.  You are not telling anybody that that summons

    24          just kind of came out of the blue, are you?

    25      A.  No, this is the procedure that has to be followed.  This

Page 7193

     1          is the court's procedure.

     2      Q.  In fact, we will all agree that the Association of

     3          Detainees and the documentation centre arranged for you

     4          to get that summons, right, in all likelihood?

     5      A.  I think that is how it was.

     6      Q.  Okay, fine.  I just wanted to clear that up, sir.

     7                One last thing and then I will be done, okay?  Or

     8          I think I will be done.  You can never trust lawyers on

     9          that kind of thing.  Do you remember that tape that

    10          Ms. Residovic showed you a little while ago, that tape of

    11          you making that statement?  It is defendants' 68/1.

    12      A.  Of course.  I will remember it for as long as I live.

    13      Q.  Remember how you said that we could not see the desk and

    14          that you were reading a statement that was on the desk,

    15          do you remember saying that?

    16      A.  The desk was to my right, to my side.

    17      Q.  Okay, so the desk was off on your side and you were

    18          reading the statement that was on that desk off to your

    19          side; is that right?  On your right side?

    20      A.  Yes, and it was written by -- I do not know who it was,

    21          what her name was.  In fact they were prompting me what

    22          to say.

    23      Q.  And the statement was laying down on the desk off to

    24          your right; is that correct, sir?

    25      A.  The statement was this format, and they would write

Page 7194

     1          something with a pencil and tell me, "read it out" and

     2          then I would read it.

     3      MR. MORAN:  Okay.  That is that videotape defendants' 68/1.

     4                Judge, with the permission of the court I would

     5          like to re-show that tape.  I do not care if there is any

     6          audio with it, I do not care if there is any translation

     7          with it, I just want to show the court the video.

     8      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  You want to repeat it?

     9      MR. MORAN:  Yes, your Honour.  Just the video.  We do not

    10          need any translation or audio.  If the court wants it,

    11          the court is welcome to it.  I do not think that is

    12          necessary for what I want to show it for.  I want the

    13          witness to see it as well.

    14      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Please let us have the video played.

    15      MR. MORAN:  While you are watching this, sir, I would like

    16          you to -- when you see yourself looking down and to the

    17          right to read that statement, just say stop and we will

    18          have them stop the tape for you.  Can you do that?

    19      A.  Yes, of course.

    20      Q.  If they play the audio, if you would say stop when we

    21          can hear the people telling you what to say.

    22      A.  Well, they should just show a picture of the whole room.

    23      Q.  Sir, unfortunately we do not have a picture of the whole

    24          room, we only have what is on this videotape?

    25      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  How would you see anybody at the

Page 7195

     1          background prompting him?

     2      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, I asked him to stop it when he heard

     3          somebody telling me.  That should be on the audio.

     4                             (Videotape played)

     5      A.  I am familiar with the statement, but you should show

     6          the room where I was, so that I can show you where it

     7          was.  Stop, please.

     8                           (Videotape stopped)

     9      MR. MORAN:  If we back it up just a tad, that is where you

    10          look down and to the right to see the statement that was

    11          written for you?

    12      A.  Can you show the desk where I was sitting, the desk that

    13          was in front of me?

    14      Q.  Sir, I want to see where you look down and to the right,

    15          where you describe that statement was.  We can fast

    16          forward it, we do not need to hear it.  Unfortunately

    17          I do not have the --

    18      A.  I do not understand what you are saying, but you do not

    19          understand me either.  I want to tell you that there is

    20          a tape of the desk where I was sitting and of the chair

    21          where I sat and there was a paper on the desk, and on

    22          this paper there were the words that I was supposed to

    23          read.  You could see me on that tape reading.

    24      Q.  Sir, I am afraid I do not have that tape and that tape

    25          is not in evidence, but I would submit to you at least

Page 7196

     1          until this point of the tape, I will show you the rest

     2          of it if you would like, I have not seen you look down

     3          and to the right yet, and yet you testified earlier that

     4          the document that you were reading from and people were

     5          writing and prompting you to say those words, was off on

     6          your right on a desk to your right.

     7      A.  Yes, there was a bed where Hazim Delic slept, there was

     8          a desk and they sat next to me.

     9      MR. MORAN:  And they sat off to your right and you were

    10          looking -- your Honour, let me make one quick look

    11          through my notes.  Your Honour, while I am looking

    12          through my notes, can we play the rest of the tape?  It

    13          is just a couple more seconds, I think.

    14      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Let us have the tape and see whether it

    15          will corroborate.

    16                             (Videotape played)

    17      A.  Stop.  Here you can see me look to the side.

    18      MR. MORAN:  Back off, if we could.  So that is looking down

    19          and to your right, okay sir.  We can run the rest of

    20          it.

    21      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honour, might I raise a matter?

    22                           (Videotape stopped)

    23      MR. NIEMANN:  Could the tape be taken back to the point where

    24          it was when it commenced.  It is very clear that he

    25          appears to be looking at something and it is not that

Page 7197

     1          section.  I would ask that it be taken back for counsel

     2          to see.  This is the part here.

     3      MR. MORAN:  Let it run.  Let us just run the whole thing

     4          through.  Whatever makes the court happy makes me happy,

     5          judge.  We can start at that point and just run it

     6          through.

     7      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Let us have the tape from the beginning

     8          and see how that fits in.

     9                             (Videotape played)

    10      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  You still think we need to watch this?

    11      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, whatever makes the court happy.

    12      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  It is not the court's evidence, it is

    13          the parties.  You know why you want this tape.  I think

    14          it has nothing to do with the Trial Chamber.

    15      MR. MORAN:  Then stop, unless Mr. Niemann wants to show it

    16          later or something, I am done with it.

    17                           (Videotape stopped)

    18      MR. NIEMANN:  I am happy for the moment, your Honour.  I just

    19          did not want to have to laboriously go through it again

    20          in total in re-examination.

    21      MR. MORAN:  One last thing, sir.  Remember probably in July

    22          or August 1992 at the camp, when it became possible for

    23          people's relatives to visit them, their wives, their

    24          mothers, their sisters and leave them food and clothing

    25          and things like that, do you remember that, some time in

Page 7198

     1          July or August 1992?

     2      A.  Sometimes.

     3      Q.  As I understand it, the people that were in your family

     4          for some reason were not able to get you that food and

     5          clothing and things like that; is that a pretty fair

     6          assessment of the situation?  Maybe they were not around

     7          or for whatever reason.

     8      A.  I did not have any relatives in Konjic and that was

     9          fortunate for me.

    10      Q.  Is it not true that because you were one of the few

    11          people that was not given packages by your relatives

    12          that Mr. Delic would give you cigarettes in the evenings?

    13      A.  It happened twice.

    14      MR. MORAN:  Okay.  Thank you very much, your Honour.  Pass

    15          the witness.

    16      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Is there any re-examination?

    17                         Re-examined by MR. NIEMANN

    18      Q.  Thank you.  Mr. Kuljanin, just going back to the tape

    19          that you were shown a moment ago, when I saw the tape

    20          I counted at least four occasions when you appeared to

    21          be looking on the screen to the right of the screen,

    22          presumably it would have been to your left when you were

    23          sitting there.  Are they the occasions that you were

    24          reading from the script that had been written for you?

    25      A.  Yes.

Page 7199

     1      Q.  When this script -- did you know who wrote the script?

     2      A.  No, I just received some general outline of what I was

     3          supposed to talk about.

     4      Q.  Who was in the room at the time?

     5      A.  I cannot remember those people.  I do not know them.

     6      Q.  Was anyone armed or did anyone have any weapons or

     7          implements in their possession at the time?

     8      A.  I can just remember very well that maybe half an hour or

     9          an hour before that I was beaten so badly that I could

    10          hardly sit on the chair and when I got into that room,

    11          nothing happened, but all along the corridor and in

    12          front of building number 22, that is where it happened.

    13      Q.  Were any of the people that beat you in that room at the

    14          same time as you were required to read that statement?

    15      A.  Yes, Hazim Delic entered.

    16      Q.  Did he have anything in his hands at the time when he

    17          was in the room?

    18      A.  I cannot remember.  He was behind my back.  He passed by

    19          my side.  He had a pistol in his belt.

    20      Q.  Were you asked whether or not you agreed with the

    21          contents of the statement that you read out on that

    22          occasion?

    23      A.  No way, by no means.

    24      Q.  You said that just prior to being taken into the room

    25          you had been beaten.  On what part of the body had you

Page 7200

     1          been beaten?

     2      A.  On my back and on my legs.

     3      Q.  When you were being cross-examined by Madam Residovic,

     4          you made reference to a sniper rifle.  Was this a

     5          military sniper rifle?

     6      A.  No, I think I was quite clear that it was a small

     7          calibre rifle that is used only for sports.

     8      Q.  Was it a rifle that was fitted with telescopic sights?

     9      A.  Yes, it did.

    10      Q.  You said when you left the JNA barracks at Mostar you

    11          took with you two bombs.  Do you mean hand grenades?

    12      A.  Hand grenades.

    13      Q.  Again in response to a question by Madam Residovic, you

    14          referred to the person driving the IVECO van and there

    15          is some uncertainty in the transcript as to who this

    16          person was and the position that that person had at the

    17          time.  Can you just tell us who it was that was driving

    18          the IVECO van and what position that person had?

    19      A.  I think it was the driver, he was the driver for the

    20          entire camp.

    21      Q.  Did you know his name?  If you do not know his name, it

    22          is okay.  If you did know, perhaps you could tell us.

    23      A.  No, I think his last name was Buric.  I do not know what

    24          his first name was.

    25      Q.  Thank you.  Mr. Moran suggested to you that you were put

Page 7201

     1          in the manhole to be taken out of harm's way because of

     2          the drunk that attempted to stab you.  Do you think from

     3          what you could observe at the time whether it may have

     4          been possible to put the drunk in the manhole?

     5      MR. MORAN:  Objection, your Honour.  This calls for pure

     6          speculation.

     7      MR. NIEMANN:  If my friend was not suggesting that you were

     8          not put in the manhole for that purpose then I will

     9          withdraw the question.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  If all you were correcting was that he

    11          felt that was the way to protect him, I think that is

    12          all he answered.  He should be able to know whether that

    13          was the purpose.

    14      MR. NIEMANN:  Do you think you were put in the manhole for

    15          the purposes of being protected from the drunk?

    16      A.  I do not think so, no.

    17      MR. NIEMANN:  I have no further questions, your Honour.

    18      MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honour, in view of Mr. Niemann's re-exam,

    19          I know it is not ordinarily appropriate to do this and

    20          this may be the only time I will request it in this

    21          trial, it probably is, but because there is a matter

    22          before the court that I think is unclear, I would like

    23          to ask leave of the court to ask this witness an

    24          additional question by way of demonstration basically.

    25      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Did it arise out of re-examination?

Page 7202

     1      MR. ACKERMAN:  It arose out of the re-examination based upon

     2          whether or not this witness during the videotape was

     3          reading a statement.  I think I need to ask an

     4          additional question about that just to try to clarify.

     5      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I do not know.  You were the person who

     6          introduced that video?

     7      MR. ACKERMAN:  I was not.  It is a matter of concern to all

     8          of us, of course, but I was not the one who introduced

     9          it.  I am in your Honour's hands.  I am making the

    10          request --

    11      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I am merely saying in terms of

    12          procedure whether in fact it is one of your own

    13          questions.

    14      MR. ACKERMAN:  In terms of procedure I may not be the proper

    15          person to be doing it, but I am the one that is prepared

    16          to do it at this point.  If I could have a conference

    17          with one of my colleagues, maybe the person who asked

    18          the person would be prepared to do it, or maybe it is

    19          not appropriate to do it at all, but I think it is and

    20          I think it would help the Trial Chamber --

    21      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  If you are still in doubt in the area,

    22          perhaps one -- you can put the question.

    23      MR. ACKERMAN:  Thank you, your Honour could I ask the

    24          assistance of the usher to --

    25      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  You have to be aware of one thing.  The

Page 7203

     1          witness has indicated that for everything to be clear,

     2          the whole room ought to be shown, so the table where he

     3          is sitting might be visible, but the handicap with which

     4          we were watching, makes it difficult to get the whole

     5          picture.  We will still have you put your question and

     6          let us see whether we can clarify the doubts.

     7      MR. ACKERMAN:  Judge, I think maybe the matter is as clear as

     8          it is going to get.  I will abandon my effort.  Thank

     9          you.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Because I know the limitations within

    11          which you will be asking the question.

    12      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Your Honour, would you allow me to ask a

    13          question that has to do with the cross-examination,

    14          because I feel that after that we have still not cleared

    15          this matter, and since that re-examination was based on

    16          my cross-examination, the answers given now casts an

    17          entirely different light and has given an entirely

    18          different meaning to what was said, so if I could just

    19          ask one more question?

    20      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I do not know about the ambiguity you

    21          are referring to which arises from the re-examination.

    22          What is that question?

    23      MS. RESIDOVIC:  I will tell you immediately.  I asked the

    24          witness, I actually presented to the witness a statement

    25          given to him by Ms. Sabina Manke on page 2 of the

Page 7204

     1          English text of the statement, dated 23rd February, on

     2          two occasions he said that Mr. Azinovic was present when

     3          he left the manhole and when he was beaten for 40

     4          minutes.  The witness confirmed that.  In

     5          re-examination, Mr. Niemann asked the question regarding

     6          (redacted)

     7          (redacted)

     8          this ambiguity I would just like the witness to state

     9          whether there is a discrepancy in his statement or

    10          whether he spoke about two different persons.  It is one

    11          person.

    12      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I do not regard this as a discrepancy.

    13          If there is an additional person he might have mentioned

    14          him, not that the first person you mentioned was not

    15          there.  He merely added someone else, that is all.  That

    16          does not affect your own cross-examination.

    17                I think that is all we have for this witness.  He

    18          can be discharged.

    19                           (The witness withdrew)

    20      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Our schedule for tomorrow is likely to

    21          be slightly altered because of the proposal of the

    22          Prosecution to start another witness tomorrow, but this

    23          is still depending on whether this witness will be

    24          coming because I hear the witness is still in the air

    25          coming.  Apart from that, if we have not this witness

Page 7205

     1          tomorrow, then we will continue with our schedule of

     2          arguing the motions which we have slated for tomorrow.

     3                We have the Prosecution's motion of 8th July

     4          regarding the admission of evidence, based on the sample

     5          of an accused person, handwriting sample, and I think

     6          the other motion is the Delalic motion for final

     7          examination of the issue of admissibility of evidence.

     8          These are the two motions we thought we would be taking

     9          this afternoon.  But since we could not finish before

    10          now, we hope to take them tomorrow.  But again as

    11          I said, since we are still expecting this witness, we

    12          hope -- we will start with the witness and see how far

    13          we go, and I think this is because our two weekly

    14          vacation comes on the 15th, and if we do not take this

    15          witness, it is likely he will be staying here until we

    16          resume, because another Trial Chamber is continuing

    17          here, so we hope to take this witness tomorrow and see

    18          how far we go.  After we have disposed of his evidence,

    19          then we can take on these arguments.

    20                Because of this eventuality, we think all the

    21          accused persons have to be here until we know whether we

    22          do not need them.  So the Trial Chamber will now rise

    23          until tomorrow at 10.00.

    24      (5.30 pm)

    25             (Court adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)