1 Wednesday, 10th September 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
4 Can we have the appearances now?
5 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please, my name is Grant
6 Niemann and I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry,
7 Mr. Turone and Mr. Khan for the Prosecution, your Honour.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the appearances for the
9 Defence, please?
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours. I am Edina
11 Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic. My
12 co-counsel is Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, professor from
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
15 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours. I am Zeljko Olujic,
16 attorney from Zagreb. I am Defence counsel for
17 Mr. Mucic. My co-counsel is Mr. Michael Greaves, attorney
18 from United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
19 Ireland. Thank you.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you.
21 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honours. I am Salih
22 Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo. I am Defence counsel
23 for Mr. Hazim Delic. Together with me is Mr. Tom Moran,
24 attorney from Houston Texas.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours. I am John
2 Ackerman, and along with my co-counsel, Cynthia
3 McMurrey, we appear on behalf of Mr. Esad Landzo.
4 I would like to ask permission of the court for
5 Ms. McMurrey to leave the Trial Chamber at about 12.45
6 today. I believe she will return for the afternoon
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. You are still leading your
10 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the witness?
12 (Witness entered court)
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please inform the witness he is still
14 on his oath.
15 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you that you are still under oath.
16 A. I understand.
17 MILOVAN KULJANIN (continued)
18 Examined by MR. NIEMANN (continued)
19 Q. Good morning Mr. Kuljanin.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, yesterday afternoon, just prior to the
22 adjournment, you were telling us about incidents that
23 you had observed during the period of time that you were
24 detained in the Celebici camp. I was asking you about
25 particular incidents that you saw. During the time that
1 you were there, did you know or come to know a person by
2 the name of Nedeljko Draganic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you see anything happen to Nedeljko Draganic when
5 you were there?
6 A. Yes, on several occasions in building number 6 he was
7 maltreated, beaten, abused.
8 Q. Did you yourself observe this maltreatment and abuse?
9 A. Yes, on several occasions.
10 Q. Are you able to tell us what you saw?
11 A. Well, inside the building number 6 in which I was, I was
12 able to observe when he was beaten on various parts of
13 his body with various instruments and he was also kicked
14 and punched. He was also burnt. I think that gasoline
15 was used.
16 Q. Did you see who it was that kicked and punched him
17 inside hangar number 6?
18 A. It was mostly done by guards of the building, Esad
19 Landzo, Osman Dedic, Esad Macic also on one occasion,
20 and many others whom I cannot remember.
21 Q. You also mentioned a time when he was burnt. Did you
22 see him being burnt?
23 A. No, it happened outside in front of building number 6.
24 Q. What was it that you actually saw?
25 A. I only saw the wounds on his legs.
1 Q. Do you know whether or not Mr. Draganic received medical
2 attention for these burns?
3 A. I do not know whether he received it or not.
4 Q. How long did you stay in the Celebici camp?
5 A. 9th December 1992, that was when I was transferred to
6 the Musala prison.
7 Q. How long were you detained in the Musala prison?
8 A. I think I was there for a total of 880 days until
9 6th October 1994.
10 Q. During the time that you were in the Musala prison, were
11 statements taken from you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What happened after you left the Musala prison? Where
14 did you go then?
15 A. I was exchanged in Sarajevo at the bridge in Grbavica
16 and then I went to Serbia, I spent about two months in
17 Belgrade and then I spent ten months in Subotica and so
19 Q. After you left the Musala prison and went to Serbia did
20 you give any further statements?
21 A. Yes, I gave a statement in Visegrad in 1996 or 1997,
22 I cannot remember exactly.
23 Q. Do you know what the purpose of that statement was? Do
24 you know why it was that they wanted the statement?
25 A. I thought because they wanted to have a clear idea as to
1 what happened in the camp itself.
2 Q. I would like you to look at this document that I am now
3 going to show you and might it be marked for
4 identification with the next Prosecution exhibit number
5 in order, please. (Handed).
6 THE REGISTRAR: It is Prosecution Exhibit 175.
7 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Kuljanin, could you just look through that
8 document, if you would, please?
9 A. I cannot read this.
10 Q. There are some parts which are illegible, but the parts
11 that you can read, just look at those for me. Can you
12 see a date at the very beginning of that document?
13 A. Yes, it is 12th June 1992.
14 Q. Do you see your signature anywhere on that document?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where does your signature appear?
17 A. If I may --
18 Q. If you could just answer my question if you can: do you
19 see your signature there?
20 A. I am hardly able to read this.
21 Q. I am sorry. What did you want to say? Mr. Kuljanin, it
22 is not necessary for you to read the whole document at
23 this stage. I just wanted you to tell me if you could
24 whether or not it was your signature and whether you
25 remember affixing your signature in about 12th June 1992
1 to a document?
2 A. I am receiving interpretation in French. I have been
3 hearing French for the past five minutes.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it is the channel.
5 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Kuljanin, can you understand me now?
6 A. Yes, of course.
7 Q. The document that I have just given you, can you see
8 your signature on that document?
9 A. Yes, I can.
10 Q. Can you remember the circumstances of how it was that
11 you came to affix your signature to that document?
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has been complaining that the
13 document is illegible. Do you think he should continue
14 to say anything about such an illegible document?
15 MR. NIEMANN: I apprehend, your Honour, that he is going to
16 be cross-examined about it. I am not tendering this
17 document, I am merely asking him the circumstances about
18 how he came to affix his signature. If he is able to
19 recognise his signature he may be able to recognise the
20 circumstances under which he affixed it. The document
21 is not entirely legible, but there are large portions of
22 it which may assist him in that, your Honour.
23 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, if he is not tendering it as part
24 of the Prosecution's case, what relevance does it then
25 have to the Prosecution's case?
1 MR. NIEMANN: I am not tendering it, your Honour, and that
2 will emerge --
3 MR. GREAVES: The objection I have is that it is not
4 therefore relevant and therefore not admissible at this
6 MR. NIEMANN: I have not sought to tender it, your Honour.
7 I am allowed to ask questions about a document during
8 the course of it being identified and I am doing it. My
9 friend well knows that.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What matters is we are wasting
11 everyone's time by bringing in the issue. Even if he
12 said he affixed his signature to the document, to what
13 does that document refer? It goes to no issue.
14 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, all of these documents tend to be
15 somewhat illegible, but so long as they are not used by
16 the Defence, I have no objection, I will not proceed
17 with any further questioning on them. It suits me not
18 to take it any further, so long as the Defence do not do
19 the same thing. If they stand up and start to
20 cross-examine on the documents, then I will be putting
21 strenuous objections to it on the basis that there
22 should be some equality in the approach to the matter.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: They could not if he can not even read
24 it and nobody can read it.
25 MR. NIEMANN: I understand that.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, let me just say, there is no
2 agreement by the Defence that we will not question with
3 regard to this document, but the problem that Mr. Niemann
4 is facing at this point is he is asking the witness to
5 describe the circumstances of a document which the
6 witness cannot identify because he cannot read it. So
7 the cart is getting before the horse. If the witness
8 says "yes, I can identify this document, I recognise it"
9 then perhaps he can take the next step. As long as it
10 remains a document the witness cannot recognise, then it
11 makes no sense to ask questions about the circumstances
12 under which it was prepared. That is my objection.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has already taken the hint and he is
14 not tendering it. He is not even using it. I do not
15 see the relevance of the objection at this stage.
16 MR. NIEMANN: I note that at least Mr. Ackerman for the
17 Defence has said that there is no agreement. I was not
18 seeking agreement, I was seeking quality of treatment.
19 Your Honours, I will not pursue further this questioning
20 on these particular statements, but the moment the
21 Defence seek to do so, I will be left with no option
22 other than application to reopen.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Unless they can make the witness to be
24 able to read it and be able to identify it, then that
25 is -- if he still cannot and says he cannot read it and
1 not remember anything about it, I do not see anyone can
2 use it.
3 MR. NIEMANN: I understand that, your Honour. Your Honours,
4 perhaps I should just ask that question and if he is
5 unable to identify it, then that is the end of the
7 Mr. Kuljanin, are you able to identify the document
8 that you have now in front of you?
9 A. I can identify only my signature.
10 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. I have a series of other ones which
11 are more legible, your Honour. I will ask him to look
12 at those under the same conditions, if your Honours
14 JUDGE JAN: You have English translations of these
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, your Honour.
17 MR. NIEMANN: There are English translations, your Honour,
18 but there is no point in showing the witness English
20 JUDGE JAN: For us.
21 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. I will provide your Honours with English
22 translations. (Handed). Might the witness be shown
23 this document? It need not be marked, because if the
24 witness does not recognise it then I will not proceed to
25 tender it. If he does recognise it then I will have it
1 marked for identification. (Handed). Mr. Kuljanin,
2 would you look at the document you are now shown -- it
3 does not need to be marked.
4 A. Of course.
5 Q. Is there any part of that document that you recognise,
6 Mr. Kuljanin?
7 A. Only my signature.
8 Q. Do you see the date on that document?
9 A. 15th January 1994.
10 Q. Do you remember giving a statement at or about that
11 time? Just look at the document that was handed to you,
12 not that one.
13 A. Yes, but this was not made in the premises of the Konjic
14 police, it was made in the Musala camp itself. That is
15 the only difference, but I remember the occasion.
16 Q. When the statement was taken, were you given an
17 opportunity to read it?
18 A. No, by no means.
19 Q. Were you given an opportunity to make any corrections to
21 A. No, nobody even asked me to do that.
22 Q. Were you subjected to any threat or inducement when that
23 statement was taken from you?
24 A. Well, as usual, we were maltreated every day.
25 Q. Was this during the period of time that you were being
1 maltreated, that this statement was taken?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. NIEMANN: I will have that marked, your Honour, with the
4 next number in line.
5 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute, I have three copies of the same
7 MR. NIEMANN: I am sorry. We had several copies taken.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone your Honour, please.
9 JUDGE JAN: It is 15th January 1994, all three copies.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is 7th February 1994.
11 MR. NIEMANN: They need to be sorted, your Honour. They need
12 to be sorted out. They have been given to you all as
13 one bundle. Might that document be marked with the next
14 number in line ?
15 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 176.
16 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Kuljanin, would you look at the next
17 document I show you?
18 A. I am waiting for it to arrive.
19 Q. That need not be marked for the moment. Just give it to
20 Mr. Kuljanin, please. If Mr. Kuljanin recognises it, we
21 will mark it. If he does not, I will take it back.
22 Mr. Kuljanin, is there any part of that document
23 that you can recognise?
24 A. Yes, I can recognise my signature.
25 Q. Do you see a date on that document?
1 A. 7th February 1994.
2 Q. Do you remember giving a statement around 7th February
4 A. 7th February -- yes.
5 Q. Where were you when you gave that statement?
6 A. I was in Musala, in the Musala camp, in the sports hall.
7 Q. Were you given an opportunity --
8 A. No, same as for all the previous statements.
9 Q. I might repeat the question just for the sake of the
10 record, because it is not clear. Were you given an
11 opportunity to read that document before you affixed
12 your signature?
13 A. No, same as for all the other documents, the previous
14 two statements.
15 Q. Were you given an opportunity to make any corrections to
16 the statement?
17 A. Nobody even asked me that.
18 Q. Were you under any threat or inducement when you gave
19 that statement?
20 A. Well, I could say that there were several factors that
21 had an impact on the actual giving of the statement.
22 First of all, all of us who would not give the statement
23 as they wished us to would definitely be beaten up
24 beyond the point of being able to sit down on a chair
25 for ten days, and anyone being asked what to write and
1 what to say, there is no need to even talk about that.
2 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. Might that document be given the
3 next Prosecution number in order, please? Might the
4 witness be shown this document? (Handed).
5 A. If there can be a correction on this document, it says
6 that I was brought to the prison on 9th -- at the end of
7 September 1992. That is the only thing. It speaks
8 enough for itself.
9 Q. The next document that I show you, would you look at
10 that document, look through it and tell me whether you
11 recognise any part of document.
12 A. Yes, I do recognise.
13 Q. What do you recognise?
14 A. Only some of my words.
15 Q. Do you recognise apart from the typed words any other
16 part of the document? Do you recognise your signature?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you tell us the date that is shown on that document,
20 A. 12th April 1994.
21 Q. Do you remember where you were on 12th April 1994?
22 A. At the Musala prison.
23 Q. When you gave that statement again, were you given an
24 opportunity to read it before you signed it?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Again, were you given an opportunity to correct it,
2 correct any errors in it?
3 A. No, nobody even asked me that.
4 Q. Again, were you subjected to any inducement or threat
5 when you gave that statement?
6 A. Same as for all the previous ones. We knew what would
7 follow if one does not speak the way they want you to.
8 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, might that document, the
9 statement of 12th April 1994, be given the next exhibit
10 number in order and might I enquire whether the previous
11 one, the document of 7th February 1994, whether that was
12 given a number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: The previous one was 177 and this one is
15 MR. NIEMANN: Might the witness be shown this document?
16 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honour, we know that the learned colleague
17 does have documents available, documents that we have,
18 but it would be good before the document is presented to
19 the witness for the Defence to have an insight, or at
20 least to see exactly which document it is, because this
21 way we are discussing documents that we would not know
22 the content of until the very end of.
23 MR. NIEMANN: I think the correct procedure, your Honours, is
24 once I ask for it to be marked for identification it
25 should then be shown to the Defence, but I have no
1 objection to the Defence to look at it now before he
2 looks at it.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think he will
4 show it to you before it is actually tendered. When he
5 wishes to introduce it for tendering, he will pass it
6 round to the Defence and then you will know why it is
7 being tendered. What he is doing at this stage, as you
8 notice, is for the witness to identify the particular
10 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, if I may add to this, for the
12 past few months, we have been implementing a certain
13 procedure and we have been building a way of presenting
14 documents. When Defence wishes to use any document, it
15 is first given to the Prosecution and then to the
16 witness. I believe that in this way we could also do
17 this in cases when the Prosecutor wishes the witness to
18 identify a document.
19 If again your view is different, then we should
20 know so that we could proceed in a similar way when
21 presenting documents to the witness for identification.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually my view is not different.
23 What prompted these procedure is because the first
24 document the witness was unable even to read the
25 document, he was not sure really whether he could
1 identify it. The moment it was identified, I think the
2 obligation to pass it round remains, so it is the same
4 MR. NIEMANN: In view of what your Honour has said, might the
5 Registrar kindly pass to the Defence the documents that
6 have been numbered so they can look at those documents.
7 THE REGISTRAR: I have received the indictments, but they
8 are all mixed up, so I am unable to identify them and
9 sort them out.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you can give 176 to 178, the
11 three documents could be passed round.
12 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Kuljanin, do you recognise any part of the
13 document that has now been placed in front of you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What do you recognise?
16 A. I do know this document entirely. I know the whole
18 Q. Do you remember the circumstances of that document being
20 A. Yes, I was invited by the investigators to give a
21 statement for the documentation centre and the
22 Association of Detainees in Belgrade and that is this
23 statement. I gave the statement in the court building
24 of the Visegrad municipality.
25 Q. What date is shown on that document?
1 A. 3rd February 1996.
2 Q. Was your signature affixed to that document?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were you permitted to read that document before you
5 affixed your signature?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were you permitted to make any corrections to the
8 document before you affixed your signature?
9 A. Yes, but there was no need for me to do that.
10 Q. Was there any threat or inducement held out to you when
11 you were asked to give this statement and sign that
13 A. Certainly not. I gave this statement voluntarily.
14 MR. NIEMANN: Might this document, the one of 3rd February
15 1996, be given the next number, Prosecution number, in
16 order and might it also be shown to the Defence.
17 THE REGISTRAR: This document is registered as Prosecution
18 Exhibit 179.
19 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions, your Honour.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have arranged the exhibits,
21 kindly pass it round to the Defence so they have their
22 own copies. (Pause). I think this is the end of the
23 Prosecution's examination-in-chief.
24 MR. NIEMANN: That is correct, your Honour.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I hope the Defence does not mind if we
1 have a break for 30 minutes, and by the time we come
2 back I am sure the exhibits will have been sorted out
3 and you can have all the exhibits. We will come back at
5 (10.45 am)
6 (A short break)
7 (11.15 am)
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Mr. Olujic?
9 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, your Honour. If it may please the
10 court, my colleague Michael Greaves will be absent in
11 the first part in order to prepare the Defence so I will
12 be by myself in the courtroom. Thank you.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Before I begin, may I raise one matter? There
15 is confusion on this side of the room as to whether the
16 Prosecution has an additional witness after this one or
17 not. There was a misunderstanding in the communication
18 yesterday, I think.
19 MR. NIEMANN: The position at the moment, your Honours, is
20 that the witnesses that we had planned for this week,
21 the three additional extra witnesses have fallen
22 through, they will not be available and will not come to
23 The Hague at the moment. We have arranged to bring in
24 one witness -- excuse me a second. (Pause).
25 The witness is in fact -- we have one witness
1 flying in at the moment, it is anticipated he will
2 arrive here tonight. He is the last name on the list
3 that we have already provided to the Defence for this
4 week. The answer to the question is we do expect to
5 have one additional witness this week other than this
6 one. Other than that, all the other witnesses have
7 refused to come to The Hague.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that clear to the Defence now?
9 MR. ACKERMAN: I think that is not a protected witness, is
10 that true?
11 MR. NIEMANN: That is true, your Honour.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: That would be (redacted).
13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Is it the intention of the Prosecution and the
15 Trial Chamber to take that witness prior to the
16 handwriting and the documents from Vienna, or to do
17 those first and then put on that witness.
18 MR. NIEMANN: The intention, your Honours, was that we would
19 proceed with the legal argument and if there was time
20 left, we would call that witness. If the legal argument
21 consumes all the available time for the rest of the
22 week, which we doubt will be the position, we would then
23 call the witness. It was not our intention to seek to
24 delay the argument on admissibility whilst this witness
25 was called.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: That is perfectly acceptable, your Honour.
2 That is what we had anticipated. We just wanted to make
3 certain that was the position of the Office of the
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We have two legal arguments before us.
6 MR. NIEMANN: There are two arguments, your Honour.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The order we have decided perhaps will
8 be different from what you intend to do.
9 MR. NIEMANN: It is possible.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we call the witness for
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, the order of cross-examination
13 will be Landzo, Delalic, Mucic, Delic.
14 (Witness entered court)
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the witness he is still
16 on his oath.
17 THE REGISTRAR: I am reminding you, sir, that you are still
18 under oath.
19 A. Yes, I know.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The cross-examination may continue.
21 Cross-examined by MR. ACKERMAN
22 Q. Thank you, your Honour. Good morning, Mr. Kuljanin.
23 A. Good morning to you too.
24 Q. My name is John Ackerman and I will be asking you some
25 questions here for the next several minutes, okay?
1 A. Okay.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, might I ask for the first couple
3 of questions that I want to ask this witness that we go
4 into private session?
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will go into private session now.
6 (In closed session)
25 (In open session)
1 MR. ACKERMAN: We are. Thank you, your Honour. How many
2 times have you discussed the experiences you had in
3 Celebici and the period of time leading up to that and
4 subsequent to that with Dr. Jovanovic?
5 A. I have spoken to Dr. Jovanovic only about my health
7 Q. So he has no knowledge about your experiences in
8 Celebici other than what he might have heard sitting
9 here in the courtroom listening; is that a fair
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me a moment, your Honour. (Pause).
13 Does this doctor have any kind of a speciality?
14 A. Yes, his speciality is psychiatry.
15 Q. You were also with another witness who has testified
16 here this week by the name of Rajko Draganic, were you
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you know Mr. Draganic before your arrival here at
20 The Hague?
21 A. Yes, before the war.
22 Q. So you knew him even before your experiences in
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would you say that the two of you are close friends?
1 A. Well, not very good friends, but we do know each other
2 well enough.
3 Q. I suspect at some point you and he have discussed your
4 separate experiences with regard to the war and Celebici
6 A. We rarely talk about it. There is no need because we
7 both know very well what we experienced. He has got
8 nothing new to tell me and I have nothing new to tell
9 him. That would be absurd.
10 Q. The one thing that the two of you do have in common is
11 that you were both witnesses here in the International
12 Tribunal this week, correct?
13 A. Yes, that is a matter of the court.
14 Q. This is a kind of extraordinary experience for both of
15 you to go through, to be called here as witnesses and to
16 be questioned and that sort of thing, is it not?
17 A. I have not understood the question.
18 Q. This is an extraordinary experience in both your life
19 and his to be called here as witnesses to testify before
20 the International Tribunal; it is something neither of
21 you have ever done before, correct?
22 A. Well, naturally we knew that some day we would be coming
24 Q. Now that the two of you have come here, and have spent
25 some time together, certainly you have talked about your
1 experiences as being witnesses before this Tribunal with
2 each other, have you not?
3 A. No.
4 Q. So in the time you have spent together here, what you
5 want us to understand is that you have not spoken to
6 each other at all about testifying before this Tribunal?
7 A. I cannot say that we have not discussed things about the
8 court, but we did not talk about what happened to whom,
9 because we know very well exactly what happened to whom.
10 Q. Did Mr. Draganic not tell you some things about his
11 experience as a witness here being cross-examined and
12 kind of help you understand what that might be like?
13 A. Only in as much as that the court is fair and that there
14 are no problems in this.
15 Q. That is the only thing he told you about his experience
16 here as a witness?
17 A. I think yes.
18 Q. Did you not have any discussions with him about it
19 because someone told you not to?
20 A. Certainly not, no.
21 Q. So no one told you that you should not discuss anything
22 with him?
23 A. Yes, I do know that I am not supposed to talk to him,
24 but as I say, we did not discuss anything about the
25 court itself.
1 Q. How is it you know that you are not supposed to talk
2 with him?
3 A. We have instructions.
4 Q. Do you know who gave you those instructions?
5 A. Well, we received them from the interpreters. Who gave
6 them to them, that I do not know, as to how to act in
7 the court, et cetera, what the rules of the court are.
8 Q. Among those things that you were told by the
9 interpreters, one of those things were that you were not
10 to discuss your testimony with anyone else?
11 A. Well, I did not talk.
12 Q. That was not my question. My question was: were you
13 told by the interpreters that you were not to discuss
14 your testimony with other persons?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. I now want to ask you a series of questions
17 about the various statements you have given. I would
18 ask you to listen very carefully to my questions. I am
19 going to try to phrase them in such a way that you can
20 answer them with either a yes or a no; okay?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Please understand that if I want you to explain
23 something about a statement, then I will specifically
24 ask you to do so, but in most of the questions I ask you
25 I am not requesting an explanation, but simply an
1 acknowledgement of whether or not a statement was made,
2 whether or not you have seen it before, things of that
3 nature to which you can answer yes or no, okay?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You know that there are several statements in existence
6 which contain your signature because you have just seen
7 several of them here in the courtroom, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Today, here in the courtroom, is not the first time, is
10 it, that you have had an opportunity to see those
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. It is the first time or it is not the first time?
14 A. No, I have seen those statements before.
15 Q. The questions that Mr. Niemann was asking you about some
16 of those statements, basically the statements that you
17 gave at Celebici and while you were in Musala, one of
18 the questions he was asking you about all those
19 statements was whether at the time you signed them you
20 had had an opportunity to review them before you signed
21 them, and I think your answer to each one of those
22 questions, with regard to each one of those statements,
23 was that you had not; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You did have an opportunity, did you not, on
1 23rd February 1996 to review all those statements?
2 A. Yes, not all of them, the statement I gave on 23rd -- on
3 2nd -- on 3rd February 1996. That was the only
4 statement that I had the opportunity to.
5 Q. There was also the one you gave on 7th February 1994
6 that was shown to you at that time, correct?
7 A. For me to see?
8 Q. Yes, for you to see.
9 A. No. In 1994? Certainly not.
10 Q. You signed a statement that you gave to Ms. Sabina
11 Manke of the office of the Prosecutor on February
12 23rd 1996, did you not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did Ms. Manke give you an opportunity to learn what was
15 in that statement before you signed it, or was it
16 another situation where you were basically forced to
17 sign it without knowing what it said?
18 A. No, I had full insight into the statement on that
20 Q. So if that statement says that you had had an
21 opportunity to review the statements given to
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities on 7th February 1994 and
23 the one in Visegrad on 3rd February 1995, are you now
24 saying that is not true?
25 A. I do not understand. Which authorities in Mostar?
1 Q. The statement that you gave to Ms. Manke refers to a
2 statement you gave to Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities on
3 7th February 1994. Are you familiar with that
5 A. Yes, I gave that statement in Konjic, not in Mostar.
6 Q. That statement was shown to you by Ms. Manke when you
7 talked with her on 23rd February 1996, was it not?
8 A. Yes, but I said the same thing I said now.
9 Q. Yes, and with regard to that statement and the statement
10 that you made in Visegrad on 3rd February, with regard
11 to both of those, you were given the opportunity by
12 Ms. Manke to correct anything in those statements that
13 was wrong, were you not?
14 A. In the statements from 1994?
15 Q. 7th February 1994 statement and the 3rd February 1995
17 A. I think I corrected the one from 1994 and 1995, there is
18 nothing to correct.
19 Q. What I am trying to -- it is actually a 3rd February
20 1996 statement, not 1995. There is an error in
21 Ms. Manke's statement, I think. Both of those statements
22 were presented to you at that time and you were given an
23 opportunity to review them and say whether or not there
24 were things in them that you thought were incorrect so
25 that you could correct them; is that a fair statement?
1 A. I think I did say what the things were that were not
2 correct and I think that it was corrected.
3 Q. Yes, I agree with you.
4 A. If that is not so, that was not my mistake.
5 Q. By my count, you have given nine statements regarding
6 your experiences during the war, some dealing with
7 Celebici, some dealing with other matters. Have you
8 made a count so you know that is the number you have
10 A. I do not think there were nine. I know about four.
11 Q. Do you know about a video statement that you made
12 regarding your experiences in Mostar?
13 A. Yes, there were several.
14 Q. More than one of those, correct?
15 A. Well, I do not know. Who knows how many times I was
16 taped? I could have been taped 100 times.
17 Q. You, of course, have seen today and you recall a
18 statement that you gave on 12th June 1992, that is the
19 first exhibit that was shown you by Mr. Niemann and the
20 one that you said you really could not identify anything
21 but your signature; you remember that one?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I take it that would be a statement that you gave very
24 soon after arriving at Celebici when you were questioned
25 by Kuhar and Miro Stenek?
1 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I object to the question. If the
2 witness said he cannot identify it, then how can he now
3 give evidence about what it was?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: You did give a statement around 12th June to
6 Miro Stenek and Kuhar, correct?
7 A. Yes, mid June, when I arrived. That was the first
8 statement I had given in Celebici, in the camp.
9 Q. You signed that statement?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You gave another statement on 12th January 1993 after
12 you had gone to MUP and you have seen that statement
13 this morning, have you not?
14 A. No, I did not go anywhere. They came to the Musala
15 prison where they conducted interviews with me.
16 Q. I think there may have been a mistake in the
17 translation. That is what I had suggested, that this
18 was a statement you gave in Musala after you had been
19 transferred there on 12th January 1993?
20 A. Yes. Not on 12th January, it was on 9th December that
21 I was transferred from Celebici to Musala.
22 Q. Yes, but after that, on 12th January you gave another
24 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I rise to mention a couple of
25 points. When my friend was referring to the statements
1 from the Office of the Prosecutor, he was saying it was
2 a statement of 23rd February 1996, when in fact it was a
3 statement that the witness gave on 14th November 1996.
4 He now keeps referring to a statement on 12th January
5 and I think it is the 15th, if he looks at it. I do not
6 know of any statement on the 12th.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there is mass confusion at this
8 point. I have a statement that was given me by the
9 Office of the Prosecutor made January 12th 1993. Maybe
10 Mr. Niemann does not have that document.
11 MR. NIEMANN: I do not have it.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Can I ask the usher to give it to Mr. Niemann?
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is not yet in evidence, is it?
15 MR. ACKERMAN: No, apparently the Prosecutor's office, after
16 giving it to us, lost it. Just a minute. (Pause).
17 I am sorry. Show it to Mr. Niemann. (Handed). I have
19 MR. NIEMANN: Does my friend still maintain it comes from the
20 Office of the Prosecutor, because it is not a document
21 that certainly I am familiar with.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: I have just been informed that it did not come
23 from your office, it came from elsewhere. I would ask
24 that the Serbo-Croatian version of that, your Honour, in
25 the same manner that Mr. Niemann did it, be shown to the
1 witness to see if he can identify the document, before
2 it is marked, please. Please do not mark it until he
3 says whether he can identify it.
4 THE REGISTRAR: I have to mark the documents before deciding
5 whether the document will be admitted or not.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Just a moment ago Mr. Niemann was permitted to
7 show documents to the witness for identification before
8 they were marked to see if he could identify them. We
9 understood the procedure was they all had to be marked
10 before showing to the witness but that procedure
11 changed --
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The procedure did not change. What
13 I explained immediately after Ms. Residovic complained
14 about it, because he was unable to identify it, he could
15 see whether he could identify it or not. In the normal
16 procedure, the Registrar marks every paper that passes
17 through and then sends it to the witness. Whether it is
18 finally tendered or not, it still has a Registry number,
19 even if it is withdrawn, it has a Registry number.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: That has been my understanding until this
21 morning, when Mr. Niemann was asking they be shown to him
22 without being marked, and was permitted to do that. I
23 do not have any objection to this being marked.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, that is a complication. As I said
25 this morning, the witness was protesting that it was
1 illegible. If it is illegible, there is no point in
2 even showing it to him. Finally I do not think he even
3 proceeded to show it to him because I explained that
4 there was no point, he cannot identify what is
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have no complaint about it
7 being marked. They may go ahead and do that and then
8 show it to him.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I was only referring to a precedent
10 which is now thought to have been made, but that was not
11 a precedent as such.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no problem with it. I just want to
13 have it understood that that will be the rule from now
14 on, no matter what.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is.
16 THE REGISTRAR: (Not interpreted).
17 MR. ACKERMAN: I got no translation of what was just said.
18 THE REGISTRAR: This is Defence Exhibit D25/4.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. Mr. Kuljanin, you now have before
20 you a statement. My first question is: do you recognise
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Does it have your signature on it?
24 A. Yes, it does have my signature, but the contents are not
1 Q. Do you remember the incident, the time that that
2 statement was taken?
3 A. Let me just check the date. I cannot remember.
4 Q. You also gave a statement dated 15th January 1994, did
5 you not, that was shown to you this morning?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You also gave a statement dated 7th February 1994, did
8 you not?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You gave a statement dated 3rd February 1996 to the
11 investigating judge in Visegrad, did you not?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You gave a statement dated 23rd February 1996 to the
14 Office of the Prosecutor, correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I skipped the April 1994 statement that you gave that
17 was Exhibit 178 from this morning, you remember that
18 one, of course? Do you remember that one?
19 A. What date?
20 Q. It was April 1994, it is exhibit number 178, do you
21 remember that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You also gave a statement to the Office of the
24 Prosecutor on 14th November 1996, correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. By my count, that all adds up to nine if you count the
2 video statement that I had mentioned earlier?
3 A. I am sorry?
4 Q. By my count, that is nine statements if you count the
5 video statement that I had mentioned earlier that you
6 agreed there was at least one of and perhaps more;
8 A. Maybe even more. There were more statements, but this
9 is what we have.
10 Q. Have you given -- you have given more statements that
11 are not present in the courtroom; is that correct?
12 A. I would sometimes give one or two statements a day. It
13 may have been 50 statements or even more. It is not
14 just me, all of us there who spent a long time there
15 were in such a position.
16 Q. You have talked about a statement that you gave to an
17 investigating judge in Visegrad on 3rd February 1996;
18 you remember that statement, of course?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I think you told us that that statement was given
21 basically at the request of the Association of Detainees
22 in Belgrade?
23 A. Well, yes.
24 Q. Do you know why you gave that statement to a judge in a
25 court? Do you know why it was done that way?
1 A. I think it was for the purpose of collecting evidence
2 about war crimes that had been committed.
3 Q. Do you think it was also for the purpose of making
4 certain that you were advised of your obligation to tell
5 the truth and not to conceal anything prior to giving
6 that statement?
7 A. Well, I may have forgotten something, because I was
8 there for three years and I could tell you about that
9 for ten days.
10 Q. My question was do you think one of the reasons it was
11 given before a judge so that there would be no question
12 but that you were advised to tell the truth and not
13 conceal anything, and that it would therefore be an
14 official statement?
15 A. I think that was the reason, yes.
16 Q. What other persons went with you and gave similar
17 statements on the same day?
18 A. I do not know about that. I was on my own, I had
19 received a summons to appear. Maybe there was somebody
20 there before me or after me, but while I was giving my
21 statement, I was alone.
22 Q. Do you know anyone else that received such a summons and
23 gave such a statement to this court in Visegrad
24 regarding their experiences?
25 A. I think there were quite a few of them, all of those who
1 had been in the Celebici camp and all the other camps,
2 not just the Celebici camp. All over the place in the
3 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
4 Q. So your impression was that this court was involved in
5 conducting an investigation and took statements from a
6 number of witnesses who had knowledge about Celebici and
7 other camps?
8 A. I do not know whether they had conducted an
9 investigation. I know that they took statements.
10 Q. Can you give us the names of other people you know who
11 made statements to a court at the request of the
12 Association of Detainees? Just those you know who did
14 A. I cannot remember those names now.
15 Q. Not even one?
16 A. Maybe Spaso Miljevic was there, Grozdana Cecez and so
17 forth, but I am not sure. It is possible.
18 Q. Have you ever seen any statements made by any other
19 persons to this court or any other court at the request
20 of the Association of Detainees?
21 A. No, this information was not accessible to me.
22 Q. Do you know where the Association of Detainees kept
23 these statements that all these people were making to
24 this court and perhaps other courts in Serbia?
25 A. No, I do not know. I just know where the Association
1 is. I do not know where they keep the documents.
2 Q. Have you been to the offices of the Association of
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are you a member of the Association of Detainees?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You have told us that you believe, you have a kind of
8 sense, I guess, that Spaso Miljevic and Grozdana Cecez
9 gave similar statement to the court. I would like you
10 to think very carefully and tell us if you can give us
11 the names of any more people who you think might have
12 done so or who you know did?
13 A. I did not see them so I cannot say anything.
14 Q. In your conversation with other detainees, did any of
15 them tell you they had given such statements?
16 A. No.
17 Q. How about Mr. Draganic who you talked to last night? Did
18 he say about making such a statement to the Association
19 of Detainees?
20 A. No, we did not discuss that. I think he may have given
21 a statement. I think he did.
22 Q. Anybody else that you think did?
23 A. Had given a statement to the Association of Detainees,
24 is that your question?
25 Q. Yes, it is.
1 A. Yes, all those who are members of the Association of
2 Detainees had given such statements.
3 Q. In fact, it is a requirement that you give such a
4 statement to become a member of the Association of
5 Detainees, is it not? That is one of the things you
6 have to do to become a member.
7 A. No, it is not a condition.
8 Q. But to your knowledge, everyone who is a member of the
9 Association did give such a statement?
10 A. I think yes, but it is enough for a person who have
11 spent one day in a camp to become a member of the
12 Association of Detainees.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, I understand that. I am going to ask the
14 Registrar to find some photographs and ask the usher to
15 show them to you. (Pause).
16 May I assist, your Honour? May I assist the
17 Registry in finding the photographs I want?
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can. You are really not too
19 sure about the exhibit you are referring to. (Pause).
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you for your indulgence, your Honour.
21 Mr. Kuljanin, I am showing you a couple of
22 photographs and I would ask the usher to tell us what
23 the exhibit numbers are on the back of them. The first
24 one is a woman and that one is.
25 THE USHER: D6/2.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: It must be D4/2. The male is?
2 THE USHER: D5/2.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: D5/2, okay. D6/2 and D5/2?
4 THE USHER: Yes.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: I would ask you, Mr. Kuljanin, to look at those
6 photographs and tell us if you know either of those
7 people pictured there.
8 A. Yes, I do know them.
9 Q. Who is the woman who is depicted in that first
11 A. That is Mrs. Dusica Bojic.
12 Q. Who is she?
13 A. Who is she? She is the head of the documentation
15 Q. What documentation centre?
16 A. With the Association of Detainees in Belgrade.
17 Q. Have you ever met with her personally?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. On how many occasions?
20 A. Two or three times.
21 Q. Is she the person that asked you to go to the court and
22 make a statement?
23 A. You mean this court here?
24 Q. No, I am talking about the court in Visegrad?
25 A. No, I do not know who thought that, because I received a
1 summons from the Visegrad court to give a statement.
2 Q. Do you know how it is the Visegrad court knew that you
3 had any information that would be of interest to them?
4 A. I do not know that.
5 Q. Have you discussed your experiences in Celebici with
6 this woman shown in that first photograph?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you give her a statement that you signed?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did she discuss with you the possibility of your coming
11 here to testify?
12 A. No. We talked only about the camp. We did not talk,
13 nor have I ever thought that she would have anything to
14 do with this, because that is not her job.
15 Q. Did she record the conversation that you had with her
16 about your experiences in the camp?
17 A. No, I did not see that, but it is possible.
18 Q. If we understand that her job is head of the
19 documentation centre, that would imply that her job is
20 to document what happened in the camp, would it not?
21 A. It is possible, but I never had time to give any
22 statements. I did not see her record anything. She may
23 have recorded something, but secretly, but I do not
24 think that that is the case.
25 Q. Do you have any knowledge at all of how it is she might
1 have documented what you told her about your experiences
2 in the camp?
3 A. I think on the basis of the statements.
4 Q. The statement you are referring to is the one you gave
5 to the court in Visegrad?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. To your knowledge the way this Association was
8 documenting what had happened in Celebici and other
9 camps was by having people go to the court and give
10 formal statements to the court?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Look at the other photograph, will you please? Do you
13 know that person?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who is that? Excuse me, just a minute, do not answer
16 that question. Do we have a protection issue with
17 regard to that question? I will ask the Prosecutor
18 before I ask you to answer the question.
19 MR. NIEMANN: I do not know who it is, your Honour, so
20 I cannot answer the question.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: The person testified here as Witness O.
22 MR. NIEMANN: We do now, your Honour, yes.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: I thought you might. Can we go into private
24 session for a moment, your Honour?
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we go into closed session, please?
1 JUDGE JAN: Did this gentleman appear on Belgrade
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, he did.
4 MR. NIEMANN: I have no idea, your Honour, but the situation
5 is that we are not so much concerned about names being
6 mentioned but names of them being mentioned as witnesses
7 is what concerned us.
8 (In closed session)
6 (In open session)
7 MR. ACKERMAN: You have told us this morning with regard to
8 all of these statements, except perhaps the one that
9 I showed you of, I think, 12th January 1993, with regard
10 to the rest of them, you had an opportunity before this
11 morning to look at them, did you not?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Just like you did with Sabina Manke on November
14 14th 1996, you noticed what it was about those
15 statements that was incorrect, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you make notes, did you write down the things about
18 each of those statements that were incorrect?
19 A. I gave a verbal correction.
20 Q. Who did you give that verbal correction to?
21 A. To the judge -- I mean to Mrs. Sabina.
22 Q. That is since you have arrived here at The Hague?
23 A. No.
24 Q. How about since you have arrived here at The Hague?
25 Have you had an opportunity to make any corrections
1 since you have arrived here at The Hague or to tell
2 anyone about things in those statements that you now
3 contend were not true?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who would that be that you have talked to?
6 A. With Mr. Prosecutor.
7 Q. Mr. Niemann sitting over there that questioned you
8 earlier today?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How many times did you meet with Mr. Niemann?
11 A. Twice, two or three times.
12 Q. On the first of those occasions, how long did you meet
13 with him?
14 A. 15, 20 minutes, not very long.
15 Q. And on the second occasion how long?
16 A. The same, maybe up to half an hour.
17 Q. If there was a third occasion, how long that time?
18 A. Maybe five minutes.
19 Q. So in the whole time that you have been here in
20 The Hague, you have discussed these matters with
21 Mr. Niemann for less than an hour?
22 A. Something like that, an hour an hour and a half for the
23 entire time.
24 Q. In the course of that you had an opportunity to review
25 all of these statements and to tell Mr. Niemann the
1 things that were not correct in the statements?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you make any notes about the things that were not
4 correct while you were here in The Hague?
5 A. That was Mr. Niemann, on the basis of my statement.
6 Q. So Mr. Niemann was making notes but you were not?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did anyone ask you to take all these statements back to
9 your hotel with you, go through them and mark the parts
10 of them that you thought were not correct?
11 A. No. I think we did that at the court itself.
12 Q. Here in this building?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I want to ask you a question or two about the statement
15 which you concede is true and completely true, that
16 being the one that you gave to the court in Visegrad on
17 February 3rd 1996, okay?
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. You said in that statement, and I am going to quote the
20 English version and I will go very slowly so that it can
21 be translated to you:
22 "At the beginning of June 1992, I was in the
23 Serbian village of Cerici, near Konjic."
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. "When the Muslim armed forces attacked this village on
1 10th June 1992. I was captured, together with Miro
2 Golubovic from Cerici."
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. "That same day, we were taken to Celebici camp."
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That is what you told the judge in Visegrad on
7 3rd February 1996, correct?
8 A. Yes, but not on the 10th but between the 6th and the
9 7th. That was when I was detained in Celebici.
10 Q. Okay. You then rather immediately after that gave a
11 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, that being on
12 23rd February 1996, just 20 days later, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Again I am going to read you part of that statement:
15 "On 9th June 1992, a relative of mine, Miro
16 Golubovic, and myself called the commander of the HVO
17 military police, the Croat Darko Verkic, who used to be
18 a great friend of mine personally."
19 A. Yes, that is correct, but we did not invite him, he was
20 invited by one of our men from the village, but
21 following our initiative.
22 Q. When I first started asking you questions, I asked you,
23 Mr. Kuljanin, to pay particular attention to my
24 questions, and that I would try to ask them in a way
25 that could be answered either yes or no and that if
1 I wanted you to explain, I would ask you to do that.
2 All I am asking you right now is to confirm for us that
3 these are the things you told the Office of the
4 Prosecutor during your first statement to them on
5 February 23rd 1996. Do we understand each other at this
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I am going to continue now what this statement reflects
9 that you told the Office of the Prosecutor:
10 "We wanted to go to Serbia through Croatia, and
11 wanted a pass for that. Darko himself came to get us on
12 10th June 1992. We drove in his police van, together
13 with six or seven of his policemen from Cerici towards
14 Celebici, to have what we believed a short informal
15 interrogation there, and from there, we were supposed to
16 continue to go on to Croatia."
17 That is what you told the Office of the Prosecutor
18 on February 23rd.
19 A. Yes, that is correct.
20 Q. That was less than three weeks after you had given your
21 statement to the court in Visegrad, correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Yesterday in your testimony before this court with
24 regard to that moment of time right after you had
25 arrived at Celebici, you described how you were first
1 lined up, placed against building 22 and beaten, and
2 then taken by Mr. Delic to the manhole accompanied by
3 Mr. Verkic, correct?
4 A. I do not think we understood each other quite well.
5 There is a mistake here. I was beaten up after I had
6 left the manhole and I was put against the wall of
7 building number 22, and not when I arrived.
8 Q. So your position then yesterday was you were not beaten
9 upon your arrival at Celebici but taken rather directly
10 to the manhole?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In the statement you gave on January 15th 1994, which
13 you have had an opportunity to review, that statement
14 reflects that you said the following:
15 "We came to the gate of the Celebici prison where
16 we were held for about five minutes as Verkic got out
17 from the car to the registration desk and he talked
18 about something with a guard. When he came back to the
19 car, we continued further into the prison. After some
20 300 metres the vehicle stopped and Verkic got out. He
21 approached a manhole with an iron cover which was locked
22 with an Elzett padlock. I did not understand why he was
23 opening the manhole. While I was sitting in the car,
24 I thought it was some kind of a joke."
25 You then went on to describe how he had ordered
1 you into the manhole and how Miro Golubovic got in first
2 and then you. Is that what you told the person who was
3 questioning you on January 15th 1994?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Is it your contention here today that that statement is
6 not true?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. On February 23rd 1996, you were interviewed by Sabina
9 Manke of the Office of the Prosecutor, were you not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You told Ms. Manke, did you not, that on arrival at the
12 camp you were attacked by Muslim policemen:
13 "One attacked me with a knife and tore my jacket.
14 Delic and a driver took me and my relative to the
16 Is that what you told Ms. Manke?
17 A. Yes, it is correct. Ismet Hebibovic attacked me inside
18 the van with a knife.
19 Q. I want to talk to you about the time at Celebici when
20 you were taken for interrogation. Yesterday I believe
21 what you told us was that you were taken from the
22 manhole and taken to building 22 by Mr. Mucic and
23 Mr. Delic, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You told us that you were taken to building 22 and put
1 up against the wall.
2 A. Yes, facing the wall.
3 Q. You told us that you were beaten for about half an hour
4 prior to being interrogated, correct?
5 A. Yes, I stood for quite some time in front of the wall.
6 Q. Your statement on 15th January 1994, which you have
7 signed, says that you were removed from the manhole by
8 Mucic, Verkic and "the Verkic guys", the HVO police, and
9 taken for interrogation by Kuhar for a one hour
10 interrogation. In that statement you said nothing about
11 being beaten at building 22 prior to that statement, did
13 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, at this stage I object to
14 questions being asked about these statements which the
15 witness --
16 A. Beat me again --
17 MR. NIEMANN: I would just ask that the statements that the
18 witness has attested to as having been taken under
19 duress be not used for the purposes of impeachment. How
20 can they possibly be the basis if an impeachment? If my
21 friend is doing something other than impeaching the
22 witness, I do not know, but if that is what his
23 intention is, then in my submission these documents
24 cannot be used for that basis, having regard to what the
25 witness has attested to in the circumstances in which
1 they have been obtained. I object to that, your Honour.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think what I have established
3 and if it is not correct I will stand corrected, but
4 I think what I have established was that on November
5 14th 1996 he was given an opportunity by Sabina Manke to
6 state any corrections that he had to any of these
7 statements and stated a few, which did not include the
8 statement that you are referring to right at the present
9 time. That is what I think the situation is. Even
10 those he was not given an opportunity perhaps to correct
11 them at the time they were made, he was given that
12 opportunity by Sabina Manke on November 14th and made
13 very few corrections, thereby implicitly verifying the
14 balance of what was given in those statements. If I am
15 wrong about that, I am wrong about that.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is not the basis of the
17 objection. The objection is the authorship, the freedom
18 under which he was when he made this statement. I think
19 that is what counsel is objecting to.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: I totally agree with that. What I am saying
21 is: if at a later point Ms. Manke showed him this
22 statement and said "is there anything in this statement
23 that you would like to change that is incorrect" and he
24 said, "the date here is wrong, I will change that but
25 nothing else", then he has independently verified that
1 statement at a later date, whether he was allowed to see
2 it at the time he made it or not. It is my contention
3 that he has done that.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But he still has not been put to the
5 question whether that statement was voluntarily made.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: I will ask an additional question or two, your
7 Honour. Maybe I can clear it up.
8 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, before my friend does that I would
9 invite him to look at the second paragraph of the
10 statement he gave on 14th November 1996 to Ms. Sabina
11 Manke and the second paragraph clearly says:
12 "I did not believe that I could add the entire and
13 complete truth to the statements I gave to the Bosnian
15 Clearly the questions of clarification sought by
16 the Office of the Prosecutor were limited. I do not
17 believe that counsel can now assert that only those
18 matters which were dealt with there and then at that
19 time represents the entire rectification of inaccuracies
20 contained in these documents.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think since Mr. Niemann and
22 I neither one were there, we are going to have to leave
23 it up to the witness to tell us that. I would like to
24 ask one or two more questions, maybe I can clarify.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can ask him.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Mr. Kuljanin, at the time you had your
2 conversations with Sabina Manke regarding all these
3 statements, one of the statements that you looked at and
4 talked to her about was that one made on 15th January
5 1994, was it not?
6 A. I think there was only one statement.
7 Q. So you think that statement was not one that she showed
8 you on that date?
9 A. I think there was only one.
10 Q. The position you are taking here today then is that what
11 was contained in that 15th January 1994 statement is not
13 A. To an extent. There is very little truth in it.
14 Q. Let me move on to something else then, if I may. You
15 told us yesterday how there was an occasion after you
16 had been subjected to a beating when Mr. Mucic came into
17 hangar 6 and approached you and talked to you directly,
18 and asked you how you had received the injuries that
19 were obvious to him. Do you recall that incident?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You did not tell him how you had received those injuries
22 because you were afraid of the possible repercussions of
23 telling him who had done it, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. As a result of that fear, you refused to tell him who it
1 was that had assaulted you, did you not?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I take it that if you would not tell him who had
4 assaulted you, then it would have been extremely
5 difficult for him to identify and punish the person or
6 persons who had done so.
7 A. That I do not know.
8 Q. You certainly had the impression that he was
9 legitimately trying to find out from you who had done
10 that to you, so that he might be able to take some
11 action regarding what had happened to you. That was
12 certainly the way it appeared, was it not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You told us yesterday that at the time you were
15 arrested, you had a 7.62 millimetre pistol in your
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you have a permit for that pistol?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you know that it was against the law for you to have
21 that without a permit?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I have just one other matter that I would like to ask
24 you about, I think. This is about the time after you
25 were moved to Musala prison. Do you remember ever
1 encountering a person by the name of Garo, a Croat who
2 was drunk?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you tell us about that incident? What happened
6 A. Well, it was about 8.00, I think it was winter, so it
7 was already dark. Garo came, I really do not know his
8 name, all I know is his nickname, Garo. He came with
9 two or three of his policemen of the Croatian Defence
10 Council. He entered the prison, he went amongst the
11 guards and we just heard that there was something
12 strange happening, that there was noise, and he told us
13 all to go outside, to go to the hallway. We all went
14 out, he came and brought four or five cardboard boxes of
15 beer and he told us all to line up and take a beer. We
16 all lined up and we took a beer each.
17 Then an incident occurred between the authorities
18 of the prison and Garo himself. They reached for their
19 guns, we fled -- went back to our cells, and it more or
20 less ended with no shooting, they did not shoot.
21 Q. Did not Garo at one point --
22 A. That was the only time that I saw him. I never saw him
24 Q. Did he not at one point point a gun at your head?
25 A. No, he pointed the gun in my direction, but he did not
1 intend to point the gun at my head, but somebody else's
2 head, the head of a guard who was nearby, because a
3 conflict had started with the Muslims.
4 Q. Do you know if any guards made efforts to get him
5 removed from the building?
6 A. Yes, they all tried.
7 Q. Do you know that one of those guards who was trying to
8 get him out of the building was Mr. Landzo, do you not?
9 A. I do not know, I cannot remember.
10 Q. You do remember that Mr. Landzo was present at that
11 point, correct?
12 A. I do not remember.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you. That is all I have. Wait a
14 minute. (Pause). That is all I have, your Honour,
15 thank you.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other cross-examination?
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good afternoon. If it may please the
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, please.
20 Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC
21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kuljanin.
22 A. Good afternoon to you too.
23 Q. My name is Edina Residovic, I am Defence counsel for
24 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. However, before I start with my
25 questions, same as my colleagues, I would like to ask
1 you first of all that when I ask my questions that if
2 possible your answers should be brief and precise and,
3 second, if you do not understand the question please let
4 me know immediately so that I could repeat the
5 question. Third, something that my colleagues have not
6 said and I wish to ask you that, is that you should
7 understand that the two of us speak and understand the
8 same language, and that others in this courtroom should
9 follow our conversation. Therefore, I would like to ask
10 you, when I finish my question you should wait so that
11 on the headphones that the usher showed you, the
12 headphones that are on the table, that you hear the
13 English translation of my question and then give your
14 answer after that. You do not need to put the
15 headphones on, they will be on the desk in front of you
16 and you will only hear the translation. Thus we would
17 allow everybody to follow what we are talking about.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. During the day yesterday, you testified before this
20 court that you were arrested and taken to Celebici
21 together with your friend Miro Golubovic, is that
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You also know, Mr. Kuljanin, that Mr. Miro Golubovic
25 testified before this court, is that correct? When my
1 colleague the Prosecutor asked you about it --
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, your Honour, we did not get an
3 answer, I do not think. I am sorry.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: So at the beginning, there is a warning,
5 when you hear the translation of my question, only then
6 you should give the yes or no answer, because the
7 interpreter cannot follow what we are talking about at
8 the same speed.
9 So when asked by the Prosecutor you responded that
10 you had had a pistol; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If Miro Golubovic testified before this court that you
13 had a sniper rifle and a pistol, was he then telling the
15 A. He was telling the truth. The rifle was not mine. It
16 was a small calibre rifle which was used for sport, for
18 Q. So Mr. Kuljanin, you surrendered the small calibre rifle
19 with sniper aiming equipment for sports shooting?
20 A. I did not hand it over. It was not in my possession
21 when I was arrested.
22 Q. But the rifle was found at your place, as your rifle?
23 A. No, only the pistol was found in my possession. The
24 rifle was on the other side of the village.
25 Q. So if Miro Golubovic said that you had both the pistol
1 and the rifle with sniper aiming equipment, then he did
2 not give a true testimony before this court; is that
4 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, this has been asked and answered.
5 In addition to that, I object to questions which say
6 that the witness is lying or not telling the truth. The
7 witness should at least be given the benefit of the
8 doubt and asked whether he was incorrect and then
9 perhaps, depending on the answer, one can progress
10 further than that. To ask this witness whether or not
11 he is lying is an inappropriate question and I object to
12 that form of question.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: I do apologise to my learned colleague.
14 I did not use the verb "lie", I said that something was
15 not the truth, or something was incorrect. I do not
16 know about the translation my colleague received, and
17 I think that I can ask questions -- ask the witness
18 questions in accordance with the facts presented before
19 this court.
20 Mr. Kuljanin, did you know that Miro Golubovic also
21 had weapons?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell us if it is correct that Miro Golubovic had
24 a machine-gun?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you see Miro Golubovic's machine-gun?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Has Miro Golubovic seen your small calibre rifle with
4 sniper aiming equipment?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So when asked by the Prosecutor yesterday, you responded
7 that you only had a pistol, you were not telling the
8 whole truth; is that correct?
9 A. The question was what I had in my possession at the time
10 of the arrest, and I said that I had a pistol.
11 Q. Therefore if the question asked was which weapons did
12 you have, the precise answer would have been a 7.62
13 pistol and a small calibre rifle with sniper aiming
14 equipment; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You also do know Nedeljko Draganic; is that correct?
17 A. Slightly, but I do know him.
18 Q. If he also confirmed this fact before this court, the
19 fact that you had a small calibre rifle with sniper
20 aiming equipment, so that means that he did confirm the
21 thing that you have just responded?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In the statement presented to the Prosecutor you had
24 never mentioned equipment earlier; is that correct?
25 A. I did not understand the question. I apologise.
1 Q. In the statement you gave to Ms. Manke you did not speak
2 about your possession of weapons.
3 A. I think I did say that I had a pistol. I think that it
4 is in the statement.
5 Q. You did not tell her on that occasion either about a
6 rifle with sniper aiming equipment; is that correct?
7 A. I do not remember.
8 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, you certainly know the person named Dragan
9 Dragovic, nicknamed Drasko?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Let us say that you would agree with me if I say that
12 that is a person who is not very serious; is that
14 A. It depends on who you are.
15 Q. He does not pay his debts.
16 A. I cannot really give you an assessment of that.
17 Q. Is it correct that you gave Drasko Dragovic, you sold an
18 automatic rifle to Drasko Dragovic for 300 Deutschmarks
19 and he continued to owe you that money?
20 A. No, it is not correct. If I had had that rifle I would
21 have given it to him. He would not have had to pay for
22 the rifle, because everybody had a rifle.
23 Q. Just now you said that at the time, in Donje Selo,
24 everybody had a rifle; is that correct?
25 A. Not in Donje Selo, in the Konjic municipality.
1 Q. In the Konjic municipality, that means including Donje
2 Selo, because Cerici, Bjelovcina and Donje Selo are part
3 of the Konjic municipality; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, your father's name is Jefto, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Your mother's name is Ljubica Cuca?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Your father used to worked in maintenance of railways;
10 is that correct?
11 A. No, he worked in Igman, in the military industry.
12 Q. So mill industry, I am asking you this because there are
13 some other people named Milovan Kuljanin in this
14 municipality, so we want to be certain that we can ask
15 you questions about certain facts linked to the name of
16 Milovan Kuljanin.
17 A. All right.
18 Q. Just before the war you were convicted to four months
19 imprisonment; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That was because of fighting and bodily harm; is that
23 A. Yes, but it was self-defence.
24 Q. Your younger brother is named Ranko and your elder
25 brother is named Srecko?
1 A. Yes, I have a lot of aunts and uncles.
2 Q. They were not in Celebici?
3 A. No.
4 Q. In the month of May they had already got to Borci?
5 A. They had fled, they did not go there.
6 Q. They were members of the army of Republika Srpska?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Srecko was the personal escort to the Colonel of the
9 army of Republika Srpska named Risto Lazarevic?
10 A. No, I was not, I was in the prison at the time.
11 Q. But he did tell you about it?
12 A. No, we do not talk to each other.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mrs. Residovic, can we now start our
15 A. Is this part of the indictment?
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honour.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will resume at 2.30.
18 (1.00 pm)
19 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)
1 (2.30 pm)
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the witness he is still
3 on his oath.
4 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you that you are still under oath.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Mrs. Residovic.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honour.
7 Mr. Kuljanin, we finished earlier by confirming
8 that your brothers were both in the army of Republika
9 Srpska but that you have not spoken to them about that;
10 is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is there a dispute between you and your brothers?
13 A. We do not live together.
14 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I really do ask what the
15 relevance of all of this is in relation to this
16 witness. What does it matter if he is disputing with
17 his brothers or not? Surely that cannot help the
18 Chamber to come to any conclusion over the charges in
19 this matter.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: She is cross-examining. She may have
21 her reasons for putting these questions. Yes, you may
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honour.
24 Mr. Kuljanin, you have also confirmed that you were
25 arrested by Darko Verkic, together with the members of
1 the military police of HVO and you were taken to
2 Celebici; is that correct?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. Before the war, Darko Verkic was an acquaintance of
5 yours, even a friend.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. After this event you were rather disappointed and
8 furious with Darko Verkic; is that correct?
9 A. You could say that.
10 Q. You thought that he had deceived you?
11 A. He did.
12 Q. Sometimes while you were in Musala, you used to say, due
13 to that anger, that you would not regret dying, but
14 before that you would like to take your revenge against
15 Darko Verkic.
16 A. I would not like to take my revenge on him, I would just
17 like to pay him back, the same as he did to me.
18 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, you said that your occupation was that of a
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You also said that from January to mid March, you were a
22 reservist of JNA in Mostar. Before joining the
23 reservists you worked as a waiter at the railway station
24 in Konjic.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So when asked by the Prosecutor, you said that before
2 your reservist service, you said that you were with the
3 regular JNA forces, you did not give a correct answer.
4 A. Please, could you repeat your question?
5 Q. When asked by the Prosecutor about what your occupation
6 was before you joined the reservists, you said yesterday
7 that you had been in the regular JNA forces.
8 A. This was in 1990 to 1991 and after I had served my
9 national service, I did not do anything for six months.
10 Q. So it is correct that immediately prior to joining the
11 reserve forces in Mostar for a while you had worked as a
12 waiter in Konjic; is that correct?
13 A. No, it was before I had gone to the army.
14 Q. Thank you. In the reserve forces in Mostar with you
15 there were ten or fifteen other persons from Konjic.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. As a native of Konjic you knew that the SDS leadership
18 which armed the Serbs carried most of the blame for what
19 happened to part of the Serb population later; is that
21 A. I do not think so, the SDS leadership was formed after
22 all the other political parties, HDZ and SDA, had
23 already been formed.
24 Q. Is it correct that the former JNA and the Serb forces
25 continually shelled Konjic from the hills?
1 A. In which period of time?
2 Q. From early May to be precise, from 4th May?
3 A. 4th May, I am not sure.
4 Q. They thus inflicted evil against everyone, including the
5 Serbs, if it is true that they were the ones who
7 A. If it is true that they had shelled then that is a
8 correct assessment.
9 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, in your statement given to the
10 representative of OTP, Ms. Sabina Manke, you said that
11 for 40 minutes before you went for your first interview
12 in front of the infirmary, you were badly beaten; is
13 that true?
14 A. That is true.
15 Q. You also said, and you gave the date of two or three
16 days after that, on 14th June, you were beaten so badly
17 that you received 280 blows.
18 A. My colleagues at the hangar counted the hits. They
19 listened to that. I did not count.
20 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Kuljanin, that after the first 40
21 minutes of torture with different means, as you said,
22 the investigators could have seen consequences of this
23 abuse on you?
24 A. Of course. They also have my medical records.
25 Q. Also, the consequences of those events of the 14th would
1 also be visible plainly.
2 A. I did not understand the question. On the 14th in
3 1992? Well I was examined five days ago, and it was
5 Q. I will be a bit more precise. In the statement given to
6 the representative of OTP, Ms. Sabina Manke, you said
7 that on 14th June you were beaten up, and that on that
8 occasion you received about 280 blows. I am asking you
9 now, were those injuries visible?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You also said that this statement that you gave after
12 this mistreatment of 40 minutes was the first statement
13 you had given at all, a statement given to any
15 A. Yes, I think so.
16 Q. You confirmed to my colleague that after that you had
17 given many other statements, both in writing and on
19 A. Yes, in the prison itself, in the camp.
20 Q. With the assistance of the technical services I would
21 like for the witness to be presented one of his
22 statements. I have also provided the interpreters with
23 a translation of this text.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which of the statements are you
25 referring to, so that we might be able to assist?
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: It is the statement from the month of June
2 which this witness gave before video cameras, and when
3 asked by my colleagues he did say that he had given
4 those statements. Since this is a statement that shows
5 the witness and what I am talking about, I want the
6 witness to be presented -- I want this statement to be
7 presented to the witness as a statement given outside
8 the court.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not sure it is a statement which
10 is identifiable here. If it is, the Registrar might be
11 able to play it.
12 THE REGISTRAR: I think this is exhibit 175.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, this is a video statement, and
14 I would like to ask the technical services to show it so
15 that the witness could identify it and on the basis of
16 that, for me to be able to ask questions. We have
17 already confirmed the basis for showing it by the fact
18 that the witness said that he had given this statement.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How do you identify the video so that
20 the technical people can put it on the video section.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: The video recording was submitted by the
22 Defence to the technical services. Thank you. So can
23 we now see the video recording, please?
24 (Videotape played)
25 "I want to address the public and to tell the
1 truth about my stay in Mostar, and my stay in Konjic,
2 where I am now. On this occasion I would like to
3 address the former Yugoslav People's Army, the residents
4 of Borci, that are biggest enemies of all the Serbian
5 population in Konjic, that they have no mercy towards
6 Serbs, Croats or Muslims. They only make troubles that
7 you can imagine, that you can experience. I was in
8 Mostar for about two months and I saw what that was,
9 what kind of an army that was and where that was all
10 going. These are only thieves, cheats and liars who
11 came here only for the money and nothing more. They
12 hope to have the borders of greater Serbia, and that is
13 not normal. They are not aware that Serbia cannot be
14 here. We do not need that. We need no Serbia here.
15 I am personally convinced that at least 70 per cent of
16 the citizens of Konjic want to live in Konjic. They
17 want to live with Croats and Muslims as they have lived
18 so far. They, well, those people in Borci put us in
19 such a situation that we have to turn our backs on those
20 with whom we used to sit in our homes and have coffee,
21 because we are Serbs, because not all the Serbs are the
22 same. Whoever is at Borci, these are extremists and
23 nothing else. They should not fire those shells, they
24 should think of all the people in Konjic. They should
25 think of Muslims and Croats and of Serbs, but they do
1 not think of anyone as far as I can see. There is no
3 I want to say also that while I was in Mostar,
4 where I was, that was one of the biggest mistakes of my
5 life, that I had gone there, because I was unemployed,
6 so we went, ten or fifteen of us, as far as I know, we
7 just went there because the pay was good. Later, when
8 I saw what that was all about, I fled back to Konjic.
9 I am deeply convinced that the logic -- that the army in
10 which I served, the former Yugoslav People's Army, that
11 there is no logic for its being here. There is no need
12 for that. They are just making our lives miserable, all
13 of us. We would be the happiest, we, the Serbs, if they
14 would leave this very minute from Borci and from
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole. They have not brought
16 any good to anyone in the whole of Yugoslavia, let alone
17 to us here in Konjic. They climb up the hill and now
18 they send their shells.
19 These are not sane people. They are idiots,
20 morons. I cannot -- I hate them so much that
21 I cannot -- I would like to go up there now, if I only
22 had something to burn them all. The biggest culprits
23 after the army are the leaders of the SDS. Now none of
24 them is here. They escaped a month ago. One cannot
25 find them anywhere. They dragged the Serb people into
1 an abyss and now they watch us from the distance of some
2 500 kilometres or even 2,000 kilometres. These are the
3 people who fled abroad. These are the arms smugglers
4 and war profiteers. They are paid to be Serbs. They
5 were collecting money from the people and they did
6 not ..."
7 (Videotape stopped)
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Mr. Kuljanin, did you recognise
9 the person speaking?
10 A. Yes, I spoke, but you cannot see the desk from which
11 I was reading.
12 Q. The statement was made after your first statement in
14 A. Yes, as I already said, you cannot see the desk from
15 which I was reading.
16 Q. In Mostar with you, there were about ten or fifteen
17 other persons from Konjic.
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. And you knew at the time that the town was being shelled
20 from the eastern parts, from the direction of Borci?
21 A. I did not understand the question.
22 Q. At the time, you were aware of the fact that the town
23 was daily shelled from the direction of the Boracko
25 A. That was what we were told.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Since the witness identified this
2 recording, I would like, in order to impeach the
3 witness, I would like to tender this video recording as
4 a Defence exhibit.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What number is it?
8 THE REGISTRAR: This is Defence exhibit D68/1.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Mr. Kuljanin, you know that
10 Witness N also testified here, we spoke about him
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You also know that Witness N, together with you, was one
14 of the reservists in Mostar; is that correct?
15 A. I know that he was there, but he was not there with me.
16 Q. You also know that in the reserve forces in Mostar,
17 there were the following persons from Konjic there:
18 (redacted), Milan Cecez, Mitar Manivada, Slobodan
19 Cecez, Hristo Gligorevic, Mladen Zivak, Kuljanin
20 nicknamed Corba, late, and another named Koprivica. Are
21 those the ten to fifteen persons that you have spoken
23 A. I know three or four of them. I do not know the others.
24 Q. Can you give us the name of the four, in addition to you
25 and Mr. N?
1 A. Mr. N, myself, Mitar Manivada, and Dusko Gligorevic.
2 Q. Thank you. You know Milan Cecez from Donje Selo?
3 A. Slightly.
4 Q. Is it correct that together with Lazar Cecez, he was
5 responsible for arming the population of Donje Selo?
6 A. I do not know about that.
7 Q. Is it correct that while in the reserve forces in
8 Mostar, same as Milan Cecez, you received a salary
9 amount of 200 Deutschmarks?
10 A. I cannot remember now, but thereabouts.
11 Q. Is it correct from Mostar, from the reserve forces, you
12 fled on 10th March?
13 A. I did not flee, I had just come home.
14 Q. Is it correct that at the time you took with you an
15 automatic rifle and the pistol that we have spoken about
16 here, and two bombs?
17 A. Yes, I took a pistol and two bombs. I did not take the
18 automatic rifle with me because it was widely available
19 and I did not have any need to bring it with me.
20 Q. So in addition to the weapons that we have just talked
21 about, you also had two grenades with you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. During the examination-in-chief you said that you went
24 to Donje Selo when the first shells started to fall on
25 Konjic; is that correct?
1 A. I said when the first -- when I started to feel unsafe
2 in the town itself.
3 Q. Before the fighting in Donje Selo, you often went to a
4 cafe owned by Lazar and Grozdana Cecez; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. It is there that you heard an argument regarding the
7 acquisition of 45 pieces of weapons?
8 A. I did not hear the argument, there were some remarks and
9 it was not 400 to 500 but 40 to 50 pieces of weapons.
10 Q. Could you tell us if there was a comment regarding who
11 should pay for this, for these pieces of weapons?
12 A. No, this was not paid. One did not pay for that.
13 Q. So all the weapons that were coming for the inhabitants
14 of Donje Selo was free of charge for the inhabitants?
15 A. I do not know. Maybe -- it is possible, but that is
16 something that I know.
17 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, you also know that in Donje Selo, in
18 addition to automatic rifles and M47 rifles, there were
19 also three -- there was an anti-aircraft machine-gun and
20 a mortar launcher above Cerici?
21 A. I saw one of those hand held rocket launchers. I do not
22 know about two of them being there. There could have
23 been ten but I saw only one.
24 Q. While you were in hiding in Donje Selo, you know, you
25 knew that Lazar Cecez spoke on the telephone with Borci;
1 is that correct?
2 A. Not while I was in hiding. That was before the
3 conflict. While we were in hiding we did not have a
4 telephone, because the telephone lines were down.
5 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, my colleague showed you a statement which
6 you had given in January while you were in Musala.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you please tell me if you know the name of Jasna
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And Judge Edina Bektasevic?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You gave one statement to Jasna Dzumhur?
14 A. I may have, but I do not know.
15 Q. Without anybody forcing you to do or say anything?
16 A. I do not recall giving that statement.
17 Q. I would like to ask for the witness to be shown again an
18 identified statement from 12th January 1993.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Could I please see this statement because
20 I do not have the statement amongst the documents in
21 front of me.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: The statement from 12th January was one of
23 the statements presented by my colleague and the witness
24 identified his handwriting. I could give you the
25 statement again, if you have not identified it.
1 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, your Honour, I think they are looking
2 for defendants' Exhibit 25/4. (Handed).
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: On this statement you recognised the date
4 and your signature.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So please, on the back side, could you see on the top of
7 the page the signature of Jasna Dzumhur, do you remember
8 now the circumstances in which you gave this statement?
9 A. I do not remember seeing it, because I know Jasna
10 Dzumhur personally, but I did not see her.
11 Q. Not long ago you looked into the content of this
12 statement and since when I asked you, you gave
13 affirmative answers regarding all the facts presented
14 there, could you please once again look at the statement
15 and tell us exactly which fact in the statement is
17 A. If I can have a moment. (Pause). There is quite a lot
18 of truth in this.
19 Q. So you recognise this statement as your statement?
20 A. Yes, but it is not as an entire statement, it is more or
21 less a reconstruction.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Since the witness recognised the statement
23 and identified it as his, I would like to tender this
24 statement as a Defence exhibit.
25 MR. NIEMANN: I object to that, your Honour.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us hear the basis of your
3 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. These statements were taken
4 when this man was held prisoner and the conditions under
5 which he was operating at the time mitigate entirely
6 against voluntariness and being a statement which was
7 obtained, so far as his frame of mind is concerned,
8 under conditions of duress. There is no objection to
9 the statements that were not taken under those
10 conditions, but in my submission, all of the statements
11 taken whilst he was held prisoner under the conditions
12 in which he has described, bearing in mind the fact that
13 this Tribunal, in my submission, should not be seen to
14 be admitting evidence obtained under these
15 circumstances, having regard to the interest in the
16 maintenance of human rights and having regard to the
17 rules. It is my submission that it is inappropriate and
18 contrary to the public interest that they be admitted.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, my client, as well as all the
20 other persons in detention, are giving statements while
21 in detention. The witness did confirm all the facts in
22 this statement --
23 A. Not all of them.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Except for some minor corrections because
25 the statement is not a transcript, he confirmed his
1 signature and we have seen him, we saw what he looked
2 like at the time, so I believe if the Prosecutor can
3 prove that the statement was given under duress does
4 have the right to give such comments. The Defence in
5 future will in addition to the Prosecution witness who
6 confirmed that statements were not given with the use of
7 force, he would bring other witnesses who would be
8 heard. If duress is confirmed, the Defence, same as the
9 Prosecution, in the light of Rule 95 has the right to
10 suppress evidence. Therefore I am offering -- I am
11 tendering this statement into evidence.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We seem to be reversing the onus of
13 proof about voluntariness. You are the person tendering
14 this statement, and it is on you to show it was
15 voluntary. If he admits it was not taken voluntarily,
16 you do not have to consider tendering it, because the
17 rule is fairly clear on that. You are assuming that he
18 is recognising his signature and the circumstances makes
19 it voluntary.
20 JUDGE JAN: Is there a presumption that all statements made
21 in detention are under duress?
22 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honours. I am not sure there is any
23 evidence being brought by the Defence that the guards at
24 the UN detention centre at Scheveningen are regularly
25 bashing up prisoners and dragging them around the place
1 and subjecting them to all sorts of inhumane treatment,
2 which if they were, would cast doubt on any statements
3 the Defence wish to tender taken at that place, but
4 nothing has been said of that so far, so it is only in
5 relation to circumstances which these witnesses have
6 attested to in the camps they were at the time.
7 Your Honours, I raise no objection to the
8 statement taken in Belgrade where the witness said he
9 had an opportunity to examine it, he was not under
10 duress, but there is overwhelming evidence, in my
11 submission, about the conditions to which these people
12 were being subjected and anything they say under those
13 circumstances must be viewed in light of the conditions
14 under which they were being subjected at the time.
15 JUDGE JAN: I think the statement was probably taken at
16 Musala sports hall, and the evidence with regard to --
17 MR. NIEMANN: I do not think it was a very comfortable place
18 there either, your Honour. We have not led evidence
19 because it is not relevant to these proceedings.
20 JUDGE JAN: There is not very clear evidence that people
21 were beaten up in Musala camp.
22 MR. NIEMANN: Because, your Honour, if we had led that
23 evidence, the first objection would have been that it
24 was irrelevant, because it is not relevant to the
25 charges in this case, but I am certain we could lead a
1 great deal of evidence about how unpleasant it was
2 there. These people were being kept at that place, and
3 particularly this particular witness was kept right up
4 until 1994. One wonders what the charges were, your
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually to me, a lot of this argument
7 is strange and new. I do not know any circumstance in
8 which a statement is opposed on grounds of
9 involuntariness, but the onus is shifted on the person
10 who is opposing it to show that. I do not know about
11 that anywhere. Whether a detention camp, whatever we
12 call it, is a place perfectly convenient and congenial
13 for taking statements of this nature should be satisfied
14 by this person tendering it, to show that it was
15 voluntarily done, and the person was perfectly free to
16 make his statement. I think that is understandable
18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if I might be able to help just a
19 second? Regardless of whether the statement was taken
20 under duress or not, once the duress is gone, if the
21 person says, "Yes, I adopt that statement", then I
22 should think it would be admissible, because any
23 taint --
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do not assume that has been done in
25 this case.
1 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, he said a few minutes ago that it
2 was -- I think my notes say that as to that statement
3 there is a lot of truth in it. As to others of these
4 statements, he has said that he had a chance to look at
5 them in the presence of an investigator from the Office
6 of the Prosecutor, and he made whatever corrections he
7 wanted to and so, your Honour, I think that could be
8 easily viewed as adopting the statement, presuming we
9 are not saying he is being coerced now.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, I am not arguing it for any
11 side. It is for the parties who are presuming that the
12 statement was either voluntary or by duress to prove the
13 arguments they are putting forward. I am in the middle.
14 MR. MORAN: What I am suggesting, your Honour --
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am relying entirely on the arguments
16 proposed for its admissibility or rejection.
17 MR. MORAN: What I am suggesting, your Honour, is that it
18 does not make any difference whether the original
19 statement was voluntary if he voluntarily adopts the
20 statement at some later date.
21 MR. NIEMANN: Again we have Mr. Moran volunteering his views
22 on this matter when counsel, Madam Residovic is already
23 on her feet dealing with it. I fail to understand how
24 Mr. Moran believes he has a right to speak on this matter
25 at this stage. No doubt when he is confronted with an
1 objection he can enlighten us on his views, but I feel
2 at this stage that it is hardly appropriate, in my
3 submission, to have two or three counsel jumping up and
4 arguing these points. Nevertheless, your Honours, my
5 submission is that there is no evidence that he has
6 adopted this statement. He has already said that the
7 person Jasna, the judge, whose name my notes are not
8 clear on, it was not there so far as he is concerned.
9 How can it be said he has adopted the statement? In my
10 submission, your Honour, there is no evidence of that.
11 He goes further, he says it is not an entire statement,
12 it is more or less a reconstruction. My submission is
13 that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that it
14 has been adopted.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, we go back to the same thing
16 several times. It is correct that we are discussing the
17 conditions in the camp. It is true that many persons
18 were detained because of possession of weapons and armed
19 rebellion. It is also true that they were under
20 investigation. Those are continuing issues that the
21 Prosecutor is raising. The procedure was before the
22 investigation commission in Celebici and before other
23 relevant authorities of the Konjic municipality.
24 Since the witness did say that in Musala, he did
25 not give the statement under duress, that all the facts
1 from the statement that could be read here before the
2 court, he did recognise as facts which he claimed did
3 happen, and that they are correct, I see no grounds for
4 objection. As for the acceptance of this statement as
5 part of the proceedings against this witness in
6 Celebici, or later in the municipality of Konjic, so how
7 else do we prove, your Honour, proceedings if Defence is
8 unable to present each element of this procedure, and
9 even when the witness recognises that everything he had
10 said here may be a sentence or two different because
11 this is not a transcript, as compared with his answers
12 to my questions asked before this court.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What was your question to him about the
14 making of this statement? Did you put it to him that he
15 made it freely and he had no coercion, no compulsion
16 when he made this statement?
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, that was the question, did he give the
18 statement in Musala under duress, he said he did not, he
19 said he recognised his signature and that he did know
20 Jasna Dzumhur but that he could not remember if he gave
21 the statement before her, because there are five
22 signatures of persons who interviewed this witness on
23 12th January 1993. These were the answers of this
24 witness. Before that, when asked by me, he confirmed
25 all the facts contained in this statement.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Absent involuntariness, then there
2 might be only other factors that might make it
3 inadmissible. If he has not put forward the fact that
4 it was done involuntarily, then there are only other
5 factors which might make it inadmissible.
6 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I am having the transcript checked
7 at the moment, but I have no record whatsoever that this
8 witness was asked whether it was taken under duress or
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Kuljanin, did you give this statement
11 under duress or not?
12 A. I was transferred on 9th December from Celebici to the
13 sports hall in Musala, that was a prison. I, as well as
14 all my other comrades, were never asked whether we
15 wanted to give the statement or not. They simply came,
16 they read out names from a list and they told us to give
17 statements. I gave a statement.
18 Q. On that occasion, did anybody force you to do anything,
19 did anybody put pressure on you, did anybody beat you
20 when you were giving this statement? I am not talking
21 about the other statements.
22 A. Not on that occasion, nobody hit me. They did not beat
23 me, but they beat me mentally in other ways.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, the statement was given
25 voluntarily in the circumstances of the prison are the
1 circumstances that you should decide about. The witness
2 did confirm that he gave this statement voluntarily,
3 that he signed it and he certainly was in Celebici and
4 in Musala. That is an undisputed fact. Therefore, I am
5 proposing that this statement be admitted as this
6 witness's statement given in Musala in January 1993.
7 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, the witness has said he was
8 beaten mentally, which means that he was under such
9 conditions of duress that the whole issue of
10 voluntariness was beyond him because he was overborne by
11 the circumstances to which he was subjected.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If his own private fears or
13 premonitions about what might happen to him, without
14 anybody else making any appearance of subduing his
15 concerns then perhaps that might be a consideration in
16 favour of those persons who were questioning him.
17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, it is not as extreme as having
18 someone standing behind him with a baseball bat, but --
19 your Honour is laughing. I am not sure what your Honour
20 finds amusing.
21 JUDGE JAN: I am very amused by this argument. Carry on.
22 MR. NIEMANN: I was not aware I was being amusing. Your
23 Honours, it seems to me that one has to have regard to
24 the total circumstances under which these people were
25 being detained.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, that might merely go to the
2 weight of it. If he had volunteered his statement, then
3 it might not matter what he had behind him for making
4 the statement.
5 MR. NIEMANN: I just ask the court to note that there can be
6 no cloak of legitimacy put over the circumstances in
7 which these people were being put, which is being
8 suggested by Madam Residovic, absolutely no cloak of
9 legitimacy, but I cannot take the matter any further,
10 your Honour.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can go ahead. You can tender
12 it. It depends on what weight one gives to such a
13 statement. You might like to rely on it, but I do not
14 know what meaning it has to anybody.
15 JUDGE JAN: May I add something? You talk about my
16 amusement, you said standing with a baseball bat behind
17 the person who is making the statement. There is no
18 such evidence and I am surprised that you gave that
20 MR. NIEMANN: My understanding --
21 JUDGE JAN: There is no such evidence that while he was
22 making that statement, someone was standing behind him
23 with a baseball bat.
24 MR. NIEMANN: There is a previous statement which was taken
25 under those circumstances.
1 JUDGE JAN: -- taking a statement whether we should
2 introduce it into evidence or not.
3 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I was saying it was not as serious
4 as circumstances where someone was standing behind him
5 with a baseball bat.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It has not got to that stage. What he
7 might have in mind is perhaps the earlier treatment he
8 might have had meted to him. Whether it is a consistent
9 pattern, after such a treatment where they go and take
10 you and then you make a statement, there is no such
11 evidence that a statement is made immediately after
12 being beaten up, and then they take you and you make a
13 statement, but in any event, when one is in the
14 situation of incarceration, for certain proposals it
15 depends on what the trial judge will make of such a
17 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honours please.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: So, your Honour, I am tendering this
19 statement as evidence for the Defence. Is that
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Can you give us a number for
24 THE REGISTRAR: The number is D25/4.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: I do apologise, but is that Delalic?
1 THE REGISTRAR: This document was submitted by Defence
2 counsel for Mr. Landzo and that is why it bears the mark
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Kuljanin, in the statement you gave to
5 Ms. Manke, representative of OTP, on page 2, you said
6 that at the moment when you were taken out of the
7 manhole, in addition to the persons you mentioned before
8 this court, that Mr. Azinovic was also present, Mr. Ivica
9 Azinovic; is that correct?
10 A. I did not see him, I think he was in the car. He was
11 the driver of the van that transported me to building
12 number 22. I am sure that Hazim Delic and Pavo Mucic
13 were there.
14 Q. You also said that Ivica Azinovic was present and was
15 watching while you were being beaten in front of the
16 infirmary; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, several times, not once. He was the driver, as
18 I already told you. He drove that IVECO van.
19 Q. Just a few more questions. The fighting in Donje Selo
20 took place between 20th and 23rd May; is that correct?
21 A. I think so, but it was a long time ago.
22 Q. You were presented a statement which you had given
23 before the court in Visegrad, and which you said you had
24 no objections to, not while you were giving it nor
1 A. No.
2 Q. You also said that that statement before the
3 investigative judge in Visegrad was given within the
4 process of giving statements for the Association of
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The fact that you were giving a statement for the
8 Association of Detainees --
9 A. I thought that this was for the court.
10 Q. Did the investigative judge, before you started giving
11 your statement, did the judge tell you that you were
12 giving a statement on the basis of a request from the
13 Association of Detainees?
14 A. No, I gave the statement for the court and they then
15 forwarded the statement to the Association of Detainees.
16 Q. Who informed you about the fact that that statement
17 would be forwarded to the Association of Detainees?
18 A. Nobody told me that.
19 Q. How do you know that that statement was forwarded to
20 this Association?
21 A. I am not sure about that, but when I saw it here,
22 I think now that the Association had sent it.
23 Q. So this morning when you were answering the questions
24 asked by my colleague, you were not giving the entire
25 fact that you had known, so you were not speaking the
1 whole truth?
2 MR. NIEMANN: I object to that question being put, your
3 Honour. It is not a question of not speaking the whole
4 truth. It may be a question of not giving the full
5 details of what he could say about the matter. That is
6 not necessarily not speaking the whole truth.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually the witness has not said that
8 he was sure it was being sent to them. He assumed it
9 was being sent to them. That does not mean it was being
10 sent to them, to the Association of Detainees. He
11 assumed that the court was sending it to them.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, your Honour, but when asked by
13 colleague Ackerman, the witness said precisely that in
14 Visegrad he gave the statement for the Association of
15 Detainees. That is why I asked additional questions,
16 and the clarification from the witness is either a
17 clarification or a different presentation, a different
18 account. I would not be going back to this.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- that he made a statement to the
20 Association of Detainees. He was summoned to the court
21 where he made a statement, and the question was, "How
22 did they know?" He said he received a summons and went
23 to the court and made this statement. To your question
24 about how the statement got to the Association of
25 Detainees, he said he was not too sure, but he assumed
1 it was sent to them. I do not see much of a discrepancy
2 in the questions. The questions were answered in the
3 order in which they were framed.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: I do apologise if that is the case, because
5 I firmly believed that I had heard the witness, but I do
6 accept that it is as you said, your Honour, in the
7 transcript it is certainly recorded. Thank you very
8 much for your warning. I do apologise if I interpreted
9 what the witness said differently.
10 However, Mr. Kuljanin, the first sentence of your
11 statement given before the judge in Visegrad is the
13 "In early June 1992 I was in the Serb village of
14 Cerici near Konjic when the Muslim armed forces attacked
15 this village on 10th June 1992, and on that occasion
16 I was taken prisoner together with Miro Golubovic from
18 Did you say this to the investigative judge?
19 A. I told the investigating judge that the attack took
20 place on the 10th and that I was not arrested then, but
21 20 maybe days later.
22 Q. You also said to the investigators that you and Miro
23 Golubovic surrendered to Darko Verkic on 9th June; is
24 that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. When I asked you, you responded that the fighting in
2 Donje Selo took place between 20th and 23rd May. Are
3 those totally different events?
4 A. I cannot really determine the day. It was five years
5 ago. Whether it was the 8th or the 9th that I was
6 brought there, I am not sure, but I think it was more
7 possible that it was the 8th when I was brought to
9 Q. In the statement given to the investigative judge, it
10 says that the attack took place on 10th June.
11 A. I said around 10th June, I think it was on about that
13 Q. And you have just responded to me --
14 A. No, I apologise.
15 Q. It was 20th to 23rd --
16 A. You got me confused, the attack was in May and
17 I surrendered on the 7th, 8th or 9th. It was in 1992,
18 June, so 15 or 20 days later.
19 Q. So if in the statement of the investigative judge given
20 in Visegrad it says that the attack against Donje Selo
21 and Cerici was 10th June and on the same day you were
22 taken prisoner, that is not true?
23 A. This is not true, but it was interpreted wrongly.
24 I said that I had surrendered on the 10th and that the
25 attack was on 20th or 25th, but it was in May. Since
1 I was in hiding for about 15 days after that, in the
3 Q. That is a statement which you read and for which you
4 said before this court that it did not contain any
5 incorrect information; is that true?
6 A. Well, it is not a very big mistake.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: I would just like to consult my documents,
8 your Honours. (Pause).
9 Just a question I did not understand clearly.
10 Drasko Dragovic, you gave an automatic rifle to him?
11 A. I did not give him a rifle, he had a rifle.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Just a moment, your Honour. I think I am
13 about to finish my part of the cross-examination.
14 I would just like to look into another thing.
15 Could you please confirm for us that I have an
16 Ivica Azinovic, President of HVO Konjic, was there at
17 that time?
18 A. I know him.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much. I have no further
20 questions. Thank you.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any other
23 Cross-examined by MR. OLUJIC
24 Q. With your permission, your Honours.
25 Good day, Mr. Kuljanin. My name is Zeljko Olujic,
1 I am an attorney from Zagreb, I am Defence counsel for
2 Mr. Zdravko Mucic. You have mentioned him during the
3 examination-in-chief and the cross-examination. I would
4 like this conversation between the two of us to be
5 carried out in a technically appropriate manner and that
6 means, since we speak languages that we both understand,
7 I speak Croatian and you speak Serbian, we have to wait
8 for the interpretation into both English and French so
9 as to avoid the appearance that we are conducting a
10 dialogue and to allow the Trial Chamber and all of us in
11 the courtroom, both on the Prosecution side and the
12 Defence side, so that they can follow the
13 cross-examination. Are we in agreement?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, I am sorry to hear that you have been in
16 The Hague for a week. This has taken rather long, so
17 I will try to cut down my questions to a minimum and
18 I ask for your patience so that you are able to go back
19 to your home.
20 A. Thank you.
21 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, you said that you had done your national
22 service and I mean JNA, from the former State, that you
23 did national service in 1990 and 1991, or 1991 to 1992.
24 A. I went in June 1990 and I returned in June 1991.
25 Q. After that you went to the reserve?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How long did you spend in the reserve forces?
3 A. A month and a half or two, I do not know exactly.
4 Q. Did you have a rank?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Which branch of the army were you?
7 A. Infantry, rear.
8 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, you described when you were arrested -- you
9 described in detail the circumstances of the arrest
10 itself. I would like to know, did the persons wear
12 A. Yes, they wore camouflage uniforms.
13 Q. These persons, did they address each other using ranks?
14 A. I did not notice that, just names.
15 Q. When you came to Celebici, did the guards have uniforms?
16 A. No.
17 Q. How were they dressed?
18 A. In different clothing, camouflage trousers and just T
19 shirts as tops.
20 Q. Can we then say that this was not a proper uniform?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the guards, did they use ranks when addressing each
24 A. No, just first names.
25 Q. In the camp itself, was there a lack of discipline among
1 the guards?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were the guards punished for lack of discipline?
4 A. I did not see that, maybe yes, maybe there was.
5 Q. During the examination-in-chief, Mr. Kuljanin, you
6 mentioned that you would have been killed if it had not
7 been for Zdravko Mucic who transferred you to the
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. Does that mean that by doing so, Mr. Mucic acted in a
11 humane manner by transferring you there and saving your
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. You also said during the examination-in-chief that you
15 were physically abused and it was really hard to listen
16 to all that you have been through. It is not easy. But
17 I would like to ask you to answer just one more
18 question. In addition to the physical abuse that you
19 were subjected to, during the examination-in-chief you
20 mentioned that you were also abused by other passers-by;
21 is that correct?
22 A. Yes, passers-by.
23 Q. Now I would like to ask you, Mr. Kuljanin who were those
24 persons, those passers-by, who did you mean when you
25 used that term?
1 A. Those were members of different units from Sarajevo to
2 Mostar, those small groups, intervention units, people
3 whom I had not seen before in my life, nor did I know
4 their names.
5 Q. Does that mean, Mr. Kuljanin, that in addition to the
6 guards who were in the camp, that other military units
7 also passed through the camp?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were those various units?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did they obey the commands of the gentlemen who were in
12 the camp or did they act whichever way they wanted?
13 A. They acted in their own way, they acted as they wanted
15 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kuljanin, can you dismantle a rifle?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Can you fire a rifle?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Can you do that quickly? Are you able to dismantle and
20 reassemble a rifle very quickly?
21 A. I do not know, I have not tried it.
22 Q. Do you know how many bullets, rounds are there in a
24 A. 30. That was the weapon I signed out in the army.
25 I know that.
1 MR. OLUJIC: Just a moment. (Pause). Well, that will be
2 all, Mr. Kuljanin. I wish you a pleasant trip.
3 A. Thank you.
4 MR. MORAN: Your Honour it always seems to take a while to
5 get wired up over here for some reason.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It makes it easier for you.
7 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much for the time, your Honour.
8 May it please the court?
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Go on.
10 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN
11 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kuljanin.
12 A. Good afternoon.
13 Q. My name is Tom Moran and I represent Hazim Delic in this
14 case. The first thing I would like to ask you is you
15 have had a long day today and I understand that. If for
16 any reason you feel tired or fatigued or if you need a
17 drink of water or to take a break, you let me know and
18 we will see if we can arrange it, okay?
19 A. As far as I am concerned, we can continue.
20 Q. Great. But if we come to a point where you are feeling
21 fatigued or you just need to sit back for a minute, let
22 me know and we will see if we can get you a break.
23 Like all the other lawyers that have talked to
24 you, I would like you to agree to listen to my questions
25 and answer the question that is asked. It sometimes
1 requires a yes or no, but sometimes might require some
2 explanation. Can you do that for me, sir?
3 A. Of course.
4 Q. Like all lawyers, sometimes I do not ask the clearest
5 questions in the world, and if I ask a question that you
6 do not understand, nobody is trying to confuse you here,
7 so if you are confused, please stop me and we will work
8 out the question so you understand what I am looking
9 for. Can you do that for me, sir?
10 A. Of course.
11 Q. Okay, that is great. One other thing, you have been
12 real good about this so far, but it is just my habit to
13 point it out, sometimes you nod, there is two ladies in
14 the courtroom, one over here and one over there who are
15 what are called court reporters. They have to write
16 down everything we say. They cannot write down a nod.
17 We have to sometimes think --
18 A. I just have to listen? It is a habit.
19 Q. I understand, sir. No one is trying to press you on
20 that, it is just that sometimes we forget that these
21 court reporters are there.
22 The first thing I would like to ask you is this,
23 sir: I understand you were examined by a physician five
24 days ago; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Where was that examination?
2 A. Here in the hospital in The Hague.
3 Q. And the Prosecutor arranged for that examination; is
4 that right?
5 A. I requested that because I was in considerable pain and
6 the Prosecution allowed me to go to a hospital.
7 Q. You are feeling better now, sir? You are feeling all
9 A. Yes, it is not bad. It is better.
10 Q. Okay, sir. Are you taking any medication right now?
11 A. Not at the time.
12 Q. Okay. Were you taking any medication yesterday, perhaps
13 pain killers or anything like that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You testified earlier today that that man who was with
16 you, Dr. Jovanovic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. He is your personal physician, and sir, I am not asking
19 you what your diagnosis is and I am not asking you to
20 tell me anything that would be what you would consider
21 to be an invasion of your privacy, I am just going to
22 ask you one question that just requires a yes or no.
23 Does any of your treatment with this physician have
24 anything to do with any kind of disease, defect,
25 whatever, that would interfere with your ability to
1 recall events that occurred in the past or to recount
2 those events?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. That is a fair answer, sir. That was all I was
5 asking for. By the way, does he have anything to do
6 with Mr. Draganic, do you know, Rajko Draganic that was
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. So when you were all together last night, that
10 was pure happenstance, I take it?
11 A. Yes, that is correct.
12 Q. Okay, fair enough. By the way, did you talk to anybody
13 over lunch about this case, perhaps Mr. Niemann or one of
14 the investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor or
15 Dr. Jovanovic or anybody like that?
16 A. No, we only had lunch.
17 Q. Okay. Dr. Jovanovic, by the way, is a member of the
18 Association of Detainees, is he not?
19 A. Yes, he is a member.
20 Q. You became his patient -- did the association refer you
21 to him?
22 A. Yes, the association sent him here with me.
23 Q. Okay. He's been your treating physician for some time?
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think he understood your
1 MR. MORAN: Okay. Let me try and -- I think you might have
2 misunderstood the question. Judge Karibi-Whyte thinks
3 so. Let me try it again and see if we can get it
4 straight. When you initially went to Dr. Jovanovic,
5 presumably you did not know him before you became his
6 patient and he did not know you; is that right?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You did know him before you became his patient?
9 A. No, I did not know him.
10 Q. Was it the Association that suggested that you go to
12 A. The Association sent him as my escort.
13 Q. Okay, but before you came here, what I am trying to ask,
14 sir, is this: the very first time you became his patient
15 back in however many months ago it was that you started
16 seeing him for treatment, was it the Association of
17 Detainees that recommended that -- said "Dr. Jovanovic is
18 a good guy, go see him", that kind of thing?
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is it not more "how did he become his
21 A. I apologise, but this doctor is a doctor with the
22 Association. Dr. Jovanovic is with the Association, just
23 like Dr. Bjelica is a doctor with the Association. They
24 work for the Association.
25 MR. MORAN: Okay, that is fine. That was all I was trying to
1 get at, sir. Do you know, sir, if there was any reason
2 why he would have been here yesterday to watch
3 Mr. Draganic's testimony? He is not his escort, is he?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. Something else and if you think that -- again if
6 you think I am getting into a matter that invades your
7 privacy, let me know and I will either withdraw the
8 question or go into private session so no one outside
9 the court can hear it. Let me just preface my question
10 with this: I have been informed by the Victims and
11 Witnesses Unit of the Tribunal that as a general rule
12 they do not pay for or authorise people to pay for, or
13 they will not reimburse an escort for someone to come to
14 The Hague to testify, and that the general rule is that
15 they have escorts authorised for people that are ill,
16 infirm, maybe somebody that is elderly and cannot get
17 around. What I am getting at is there has to be a good
18 reason for it.
19 Do you know why the Victims and Witnesses Unit
20 authorised you to have an escort, if in fact they did?
21 A. I think it was due to my condition, the condition I am
23 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, in the interests of not invading the
24 man's privacy any more, I am going to change the
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
2 MR. MORAN: If the court wishes me to follow up, I will.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If it is your case, but as much as
4 possible, you avoid questions which might be undesirable
5 unless you really need it.
6 MR. MORAN: Again in the interests of this witness's privacy
7 I think we can go on to something else.
8 Let me go to the time when you immediately got to
9 Celebici. As I recall your testimony, and I think you
10 just testified to it again a couple of minutes ago, as
11 soon as you got to Celebici, a Muslim policeman, you
12 have no idea who it was, attacked you with a knife while
13 you were still in the car; do I have your testimony
15 A. Yes, while we were sitting there in the car.
16 Q. Were there a whole lot of soldiers around the entrance
17 at the time you got there?
18 A. Well, all told there were maybe 15 or 20 of them.
19 Q. Did they look like they were -- sir, you were in the JNA
20 and the JNA was a fairly disciplined army.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You know what a disciplined army was or is. Did these
23 guys look disciplined, or were they out of control?
24 A. The people who were there when I got there, I think they
25 were out of control.
1 Q. After this man attacked you with a knife, you said
2 Mr. Delic, and who else hustled you away from there?
3 A. Yes, after five minutes.
4 Q. And they protected you from -- I presume you were scared
5 when this guy came at you with a knife?
6 A. Well, I was surprised, of course.
7 Q. I presume you thought that the guy --
8 A. He was drunk.
9 Q. So you had a drunk with a knife that was coming at you
10 to attack you, and Mr. Delic got you away from that, did
11 he not?
12 A. In the manhole.
13 Q. That is right. He got you to some place where that man
14 with a knife could not get at you; is that right?
15 A. Yes, he took me to the manhole.
16 Q. That is true. Nobody is denying that. He got you to a
17 place --
18 A. I just wanted to tell you where he brought me to.
19 Q. He brought you to the manhole and he put you down the
20 manhole, no question about it. What I am suggesting to
21 you, sir, is that while you were in that manhole, that
22 undisciplined mob of people, including the drunk
23 policeman with a knife, were unable to harm you; is that
24 a fair assessment?
25 A. No, they could not get into the manhole.
1 Q. That is right, so they could not harm you; is that fair?
2 A. Yes, I just do not know who had the key, whoever had the
3 key was the person who protected us.
4 Q. And that when you were released from the manhole, what a
5 day and a night and a day later, right, so about 24 to
6 36 hours later, is that about how long you were there?
7 A. Yes, thereabouts.
8 Q. When you were released from that manhole, was that
9 drunken mob of undisciplined people with knives and guns
10 still around?
11 A. They were not there right next to the manhole, but they
12 were still there. There were a few of them.
13 Q. Did they look like they were under a little bit more
14 control, a little bit more disciplined?
15 A. It did not look to me like that.
16 Q. Okay. Sir, you have talked to everybody up here about
17 the statements, the previous statements you have made.
18 I do not want to beat a dead horse, but I am afraid
19 I will have to do it a little bit. I know you are tired
20 of hearing about this, but I would like to talk about a
21 couple of things. The first thing is, when you met with
22 Mr. Niemann --
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we should break now.
24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, thank you very much.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: At 4.30 you can start with that topic.
1 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I will beat that dead horse when we
3 (4.00 pm)
4 (A short break)
5 (4.30 pm)
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Moran, you may proceed.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, before he begins, may I make a
8 request to the court? After today, there will be
9 nothing before the Trial Chamber tomorrow or Friday that
10 has any impact on Mr. Landzo. He has asked that he be
11 excused from attendance on Thursday and Friday.
12 Ms. McMurrey and I have no objection to that if the court
13 has no objection to it.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose before we close today we will
15 tell you what the decision is.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, your Honour. I wanted to mention
17 it now, because I was afraid I would forget it by 5.30.
18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, so I do not forget it, Mr. Delic is
19 in the same position and asks to be excused also. In
20 any case, may it please the court.
21 JUDGE JAN: One witness is on his way to The Hague.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, your Honour, please.
23 MR. NIEMANN: That is correct, your Honour. There is
24 a witness coming.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are expecting a witness?
1 MR. NIEMANN: There is one on his way, but he will not be
2 arriving until late tonight.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this complicates the matter.
4 Since we are expecting a witness who is likely to come,
5 it is important we take that witness, if he arrives.
6 MR. MORAN: I understand, your Honour.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So tomorrow, perhaps they have to wait
8 until we know what the position is tomorrow.
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I was aware that there is another
10 witness coming. It is my understanding that that
11 witness has absolutely nothing to say about Mr. Landzo,
12 has no idea who he is or anything else and is not being
13 called as a witness against Mr. Landzo. That is the
14 reason I made the request the way I did. I was aware of
15 the witness at the time I made the request.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose it might still be difficult
17 for the Trial Chamber to decide that nothing will affect
18 him from the evidence. You never can say.
19 MR. MORAN: That is fine, your Honour. Thank you very much
20 for the consideration on that.
21 Good afternoon again, sir.
22 A. Good afternoon.
23 Q. Let me ask you this about one of your statements and
24 I am not going to show it to you, but remember when you
25 were meeting with Mr. Niemann, the Prosecutor, those
1 three times?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. He went over the statement that you gave Sabina Manke
4 back in February 1996 with you, went over it in great
5 detail, did he not?
6 A. Well, one could say that.
7 Q. You spent, what, about three or four hours going over
8 it, so that is pretty good detail.
9 A. No.
10 MR. NIEMANN: I object to that, your Honour. That is not
11 what the witness said. The witness said it was for an
12 hour and a half.
13 MR. MORAN: I am sorry, an hour and a half going over it, so
14 in fairly good detail?
15 A. It all --
16 Q. What I am getting it, sir, is this: having read my
17 statement yourself and having listened to your
18 testimony, there were several places in your statement
19 where, for whatever reason, there was a mix-up between a
20 man named Osman Dedic and Hazim Delic. Do you recall
21 some of those incidents?
22 A. It was their mistake, not mine.
23 Q. I understand. No one is saying you did anything wrong,
24 sir. No one is criticising you at all, okay? What I am
25 asking you is this: was Mr. Niemann aware of those
1 problems with your statement when he talked to you in
3 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I object to that. I am not sure
4 how the witness would know what I was aware of and what
5 my problems were.
6 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, let me rephrase this. Did you make
7 Mr. Niemann aware of the problems in the statement where
8 Mr. Dedic and Mr. Delic had their identities confused?
9 A. I know the difference between Osman Dedic and Hazim
10 Delic very well. Perhaps Mr. Niemann ...
11 Q. Perhaps he did not understand the difference or perhaps
12 it was not clear to him, is that what you are saying,
14 A. It is possible.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not know what you have in mind.
16 Is it not the evidence that determines where either of
17 them comes in? One is a guard and the other is not a
19 MR. MORAN: That is correct, your Honour. In fact, I am not
20 going to tender the statement. I was just bringing
21 before the court that there was some confusion over the
22 names, for instance, there was an incident yesterday
23 afternoon right before the afternoon break where the
24 last question was something, the answer was Osman Dedic
25 was involved in a beating and the first question after
1 the break was "Mr. Delic ..." And then the witness quite
2 properly corrected the questioner. I just wanted to
3 make clear to everyone that that had occurred.
4 Sir, that was not the first time that you had a
5 chance to go over that statement that you gave
6 Ms. Manke, was it?
7 A. I have gone through it.
8 Q. You went through it with her back in November 14th last
9 year, did you not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And had the chance to make any corrections you wanted?
12 A. I think I did that.
13 Q. Yes, you made some corrections in some other
14 statements. According to your statement, and I will be
15 happy to provide you with a Bosnian Serbian translation
16 of it, that you were shown the statements that were
17 given to the Bosnian authorities on 7th February 1994
18 and to the authorities in Visegrad, that would have been
19 the Serbian court, on 3rd February 1995, which actually
20 was 1996, and you made, I believe --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- two changes to those statements and one paragraph or
23 two paragraphs clarifying things. Is that a fair
25 A. I do not know what the question is.
1 Q. Okay. Perhaps with a little help from the usher, if we
2 could mark this as Delic exhibit whatever, whatever our
3 next one is.
4 THE REGISTRAR: The document is D11/3.
5 MR. MORAN: Okay, sir. If you just want to read that it will
6 help you refresh your memory about what you were shown
7 back then. (Pause). Sir, if you take my word for it,
8 that is a Serbian translation that is from the Office of
9 the Prosecutor. I would be glad to show you the
10 original in English with your signature on it, if you
11 would like.
12 A. I am supposed to say?
13 Q. I am just asking you -- okay. Look at the first
14 paragraph --
15 A. This is a correction that I requested in the statement.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. That he did not tell me -- that it was not Zdravko Mucic
18 who told me to enter the manhole, it was Hazim Delic.
19 Q. Yes, sir. What I am getting at, sir -- you are getting
20 ahead of me here. Let us back off a second. According
21 to this statement, you were shown three statements by
22 Ms. Manke, the statement that you gave to her on
23 February 23rd; the statement that you gave to the
24 Bosnian authorities on February 7th 1994; and the
25 statement you gave in Visegrad to the Serbian
1 investigating magistrate. Is that not what the first
2 paragraph seems to say?
3 A. I only received one statement from Ms. Manke.
4 Q. So Ms. Manke only showed you one and there were
5 corrections to -- or the possibility --
6 A. To the Bosnian authorities. I think that was the one.
7 Q. So just the statement that you made on February
8 7th 1994, that is the only one that you saw; is that
10 A. I do not remember the dates when I gave them. Okay, it
11 was extensive perhaps, those were actually two
12 statements, but I understood that to be one.
13 Q. Let me see if we can help you out. If the usher could
14 show you Prosecution Exhibits 176 and 177? Those should
15 be the Serbian versions of a statement that you gave on
16 February 7th 1994.
17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, my records indicate that 176 is
18 15th January 1994. 177 is 7th February, so
19 therefore ...
20 MR. MORAN: I think he needs to have both of them,
21 Mr. Niemann.
22 MR. NIEMANN: I just thought --
23 MR. MORAN: I understand. You are correct though. His
24 records are correct, your Honour. I am just trying to
25 save the usher a trip.
1 When Ms. Manke showed you all these statements
2 back in November of last year, did she show you both of
3 those or just one of them, or do you remember?
4 A. I cannot remember precisely.
5 Q. The reason I say that is, and maybe you can help me with
6 this, if you go to the statement that you gave her, that
7 one page statement I handed you a little while ago, the
8 very first statement I handed you, D11/3, if you go down
9 to the second paragraph, it says that you want to make a
10 correction in your statement of February 7th to page 1,
11 paragraph 2, where you say it should read, and then if
12 you look at Prosecution Exhibit 177, it fits, the
13 correction you want to make fits. You have what the
14 statement should be. Do you want to take a look at
15 those two and compare them and see if that is fair?
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is it your question that he has
17 corrected the statement of 7th February?
18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, just to get right to the heart of
19 the matter, the next paragraph which does not mention
20 anything at all about the 15th January statement,
21 contains a correction to the 15th January statement.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This one refers to 7th February.
23 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour, that is correct.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So what he is supposed to have
25 corrected is that statement of 7th February.
1 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour, and the next statement which in
2 his November 14th statement to the OTP, the next
3 paragraph is quoted at length, a sentence from it, and
4 in fact that sentence is not in Prosecution Exhibit 177,
5 the 7th February statement, it is in the 15th January
6 statement, which would seem to indicate that he has had
7 access to more than just those three statements that
8 were here.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I assume a progressive correction has
10 been made to each of them.
11 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. The point is that he did have
12 the chance to correct any of these statements.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The January one and the February
15 MR. MORAN: At least those two. I want to find out how many
16 more of these he had a chance to correct.
17 Sir, will you take my word for it, so we can save
18 ourselves a lot of time, that if you look at your
19 statement to Ms. Manke from November of last year, it
20 contains corrections to two different statements you
21 gave to the Bosnia authorities, one which is Prosecution
22 Exhibit 176, a January 15th statement, and the other
23 which is Prosecution Exhibit 177, a February
24 7th statement? Will you take my word for that? If not,
25 I will be happy to go through it with you. If it would
1 help the Prosecution, they seem to be looking for it,
2 your Honour, the paragraph that is corrected in the
3 15th January statement is the last paragraph of the
4 first page , starts off "Verkic joined in the meantime
5 by Pavo Mucic". It reads directly into the correction
6 in the OTP statement.
7 Sir, would you agree with me that you have
8 probably had access to more than one of the statements
9 you gave the Bosnian authorities when you talked to
10 Ms. Manke back in February -- excuse me, back in
11 November of last year? It appears that that is
13 A. I think that I had made a correction in that and I said
14 exactly what happened, the statements taken by the
15 Bosnian authorities for me are not of any significance,
16 because they deliberately missed out the names. Instead
17 of Hazim Delic, they put the name of Pavo Mucic,
18 Zdravko. That was not an accident, that was done
20 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, just in relation to the statement
21 of 15th January 1994, what I have in the statement that
22 I have is "Verkic who had been joined by Pavo Mucic, the
23 commander of the prison, in the meantime ordered us to
24 get out of the car and go down into the manhole", which
25 is in some ways quite different to the other one. There
1 are similarities, but it is not precisely the same.
2 Just to draw that to counsel's attention.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose, is that not what is being
4 corrected when Ms. Manke went over it with him?
5 MR. MORAN: Actually, your Honour, what I think occurred is
6 the statement to Ms. Manke says "here is the sentence
7 which needs to be corrected" and, therefore, admittedly
8 a couple of minor differences in the wording, I think
9 they have to do with translation and stylistic matters,
10 as opposed to substance. Substantially they are the
11 same sentence. I would be happy to introduce my one
12 copy of the English version of November 14th --
13 MR. NIEMANN: That might be so, your Honour, but I do not
14 think you can say that one is identical with the other
15 therefore it is obviously the statement of the 15th.
16 The point I make is that it is not identical. In other
17 words, there may be a similar sense to it, it may be
18 speaking of the same topic and, indeed, it may be
19 covering the same point, but you cannot say one is
20 identical with the other when they are not.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought counsel was trying to reflect
22 on the fact that the November exercise was intended to
23 correct certain things in January and February.
24 MR. NIEMANN: I think the point, as I understand it he is
25 saying that the statement that was corrected was, in
1 fact, the statement of 15th January 1994, and he says
2 that is so because he says there are paragraphs -- the
3 paragraph is the same. The point I make is that the
4 paragraph is not the same. It is about the same topic,
5 I agree with that, but the words are not exactly the
6 same. He cannot say for sure that that is what this
7 statement is.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What does the correction read, because
9 that might help?
10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I will read the whole thing to the
11 court, or we can put it on the ELMO so everyone can see
12 it. Whatever makes the court happy. I am flexible on
13 this. The statement given to Ms. Manke last November,
14 the paragraph reads:
15 "In my statement to the BH authorities, page 1,
16 paragraph 4, sentence 1, the facts are not correctly
17 laid down:
18 'Verkic meanwhile joined by Pavo Mucic, the
19 commander of the prison, ordered us to get out of the
20 car and go town into the tank.'
21 "Pavo Mucic did not order me to get out of the car
22 and go into the tank, I only heard his voice later when
23 Verkic and Delic had already put me in the manhole.
24 Verkic is the driver I am referring to in my statement
25 to the ICTY."
1 Your Honour, if you go to paragraph 4, sentence 1
2 of the statement dated 15th January 1994, which is
3 Prosecution Exhibit 176, it reads:
4 "Verkic, joined in the meantime by Pavo Mucic the
5 commander of the prison" --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Would counsel please slow down a bit.
7 MR. MORAN: Let me start over:
8 "Verkic, joined in the meantime by Pavo Mucic,
9 the commander of the prison, ordered us to get out of
10 the van and into the manhole."
11 Your Honour, I submit that given the stylistic
12 changes in translation from English to Serbian and
13 Serbian to English, that that is the same sentence that
14 is referred to in his statement to Ms. Manke.
15 A. Yes, but it is not the same person.
16 Q. Clearly, and you were allowed to make any corrections
17 you wanted to in those statements that you made to the
18 Bosnian authorities, right?
19 A. Never. How can I make corrections?
20 Q. When you met with Ms. Manke back last November she gave
21 you the chance to make corrections. You made at least
22 two, did you not?
23 A. And I did correct it.
24 Q. Sure. Anything that was wrong with those statements you
25 fixed, did you not?
1 A. I remember that exact moment very well when it comes to
2 the entry into the manhole.
3 Q. Sure. When you went over those statements --
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Excuse me, but how can she make
5 corrections of statements she did not take?
6 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, what she did was -- from reading her
7 statement and this is reading between the lines, he was
8 given a chance to add and/or clarify those statements,
9 which is the words out of his statement.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Statements made to some other
12 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. The Office of the Prosecutor
13 provided him with at least one of these statements,
14 according to the witness statement that he gave to
15 Ms. Manke, or in some way, shape or form, he was given
16 a chance by Ms. Manke in a statement taken by the OTP
17 in November of last year to add to, clarify, correct
18 clearly the statement of 7th February, which is
19 Prosecution 177, I submit Prosecution 176, and also the
20 statement made to the investigating magistrate in
22 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, might I raise a matter at this
23 stage? As I pointed out previously, if counsel reads
24 the second paragraph of the statement, rather than
25 reading between the lines, one can see what is there.
1 It says:
2 "I did not believe that I could add the entire and
3 complete truth to the statements that I gave to the
4 Bosnian authorities."
5 That is completely contrary to what counsel is
7 MR. MORAN: I am saying that he says in his statement, the
8 very first paragraph:
9 "I would like to add and to clarify the
11 MR. NIEMANN: Exactly right, your Honour and specifies what
12 the following are. Counsel is reading into this
13 statement more than is there. He is trying to suggest
14 that a complete revision of the statement was done, it
15 was not. There were a couple of issues that wanted to
16 be clarified and that was done. He says in the second
18 "I did not believe that I could add the entire and
19 complete truth to the statements that I gave to the
20 Bosnian authorities."
21 In my submission that makes the whole issue quite
23 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, our position is that he had a chance
24 to change whatever he wanted to. The Prosecution said
25 "here, tell us what is wrong with it".
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you not think that is strange? It
2 was not a statement made to the Prosecution.
3 MR. MORAN: Actually, your Honour, if I were the Prosecutor
4 and I had a statement that was given to -- you knew you
5 were going to have to give in discovery and I knew that
6 there were some factual errors in that statement,
7 I would try and get something to correct that statement
8 with factual errors in.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The statement he made to someone else?
10 MR. MORAN: The statement he made to whoever, but in any
11 case, your Honour, we can go on to another subject.
12 Sir, I am a little confused about something,
13 I think the record is not real clear and I would like to
14 see if you could maybe help me with this. That
15 statement that you gave in Visegrad to the investigating
16 magistrate, okay?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That was done at the behest of either the document
19 centre or the Association of Detainees, was it not?
20 A. I do not know. I was summoned to the court.
21 Q. Let me tell you, sir, why I wanted to probe into that a
22 little bit. This morning, the transcript, and it is the
23 LiveNote's transcript, starting at page 17, line 25, if
24 the Prosecution wants to check my reading, you have
25 question by Mr. Niemann:
1 "Do you remember the circumstances of the document
2 being created?"
3 Do you remember him asking that question, sir?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you remember your answer to that, because I can help
6 you with it. I have it off the transcript.
7 A. I think I said the same thing that I said a minute ago,
8 that I had been summoned to give a statement, that I had
9 received a summons from the court.
10 Q. Actually, what the transcript taken down by that court
11 reporter says is:
12 "Answer: yes. I was invited by the investigators
13 from the documentation centre and the Association of
14 Detainees in Belgrade and that is this statement.
15 I gave this statement in the court building of the
16 Visegrad municipality."
17 Do you remember that being your answer, sir?
18 A. Yes, but I am just explaining to you how I came to be at
19 the court. I received a summons to appear before the
20 court. I do not know who told them to do that.
21 Q. So when you were answering Mr. Niemann's question this
22 morning, did you not understand the question, when you
23 talked about the Association of Detainees and the
24 documentation centre, or was that just a slip of the
25 tongue: what was it, sir?
1 A. As far as I can remember I said that I thought that it
2 was at the request of the Association of Detainees, that
3 that was how it came to be that I gave this statement to
4 the court. I did not say that they sought that
6 Q. Okay, so --
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can now link the answer to your
9 MR. MORAN: Yes, sir. The answer is -- sir, did this -- I do
10 not think the record is still real clear. I would like
11 to just clarify it just a bit.
12 A. It is fine with me.
13 Q. This morning, reading that answer that I just read to
14 you, it seems to me that you thought you were giving, or
15 at least you were telling Mr. Niemann and you wanted the
16 judges to believe that you were giving -- you were
17 invited by the investigators from the documentation
18 centre and the Association to give a statement and
19 then --
20 A. I said --
21 Q. Excuse me just a second. Then you say that the reason
22 you went there was because you got this summons from the
23 court. You are not telling anybody that that summons
24 just kind of came out of the blue, are you?
25 A. No, this is the procedure that has to be followed. This
1 is the court's procedure.
2 Q. In fact, we will all agree that the Association of
3 Detainees and the documentation centre arranged for you
4 to get that summons, right, in all likelihood?
5 A. I think that is how it was.
6 Q. Okay, fine. I just wanted to clear that up, sir.
7 One last thing and then I will be done, okay? Or
8 I think I will be done. You can never trust lawyers on
9 that kind of thing. Do you remember that tape that
10 Ms. Residovic showed you a little while ago, that tape of
11 you making that statement? It is defendants' 68/1.
12 A. Of course. I will remember it for as long as I live.
13 Q. Remember how you said that we could not see the desk and
14 that you were reading a statement that was on the desk,
15 do you remember saying that?
16 A. The desk was to my right, to my side.
17 Q. Okay, so the desk was off on your side and you were
18 reading the statement that was on that desk off to your
19 side; is that right? On your right side?
20 A. Yes, and it was written by -- I do not know who it was,
21 what her name was. In fact they were prompting me what
22 to say.
23 Q. And the statement was laying down on the desk off to
24 your right; is that correct, sir?
25 A. The statement was this format, and they would write
1 something with a pencil and tell me, "read it out" and
2 then I would read it.
3 MR. MORAN: Okay. That is that videotape defendants' 68/1.
4 Judge, with the permission of the court I would
5 like to re-show that tape. I do not care if there is any
6 audio with it, I do not care if there is any translation
7 with it, I just want to show the court the video.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You want to repeat it?
9 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. Just the video. We do not
10 need any translation or audio. If the court wants it,
11 the court is welcome to it. I do not think that is
12 necessary for what I want to show it for. I want the
13 witness to see it as well.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please let us have the video played.
15 MR. MORAN: While you are watching this, sir, I would like
16 you to -- when you see yourself looking down and to the
17 right to read that statement, just say stop and we will
18 have them stop the tape for you. Can you do that?
19 A. Yes, of course.
20 Q. If they play the audio, if you would say stop when we
21 can hear the people telling you what to say.
22 A. Well, they should just show a picture of the whole room.
23 Q. Sir, unfortunately we do not have a picture of the whole
24 room, we only have what is on this videotape?
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How would you see anybody at the
1 background prompting him?
2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I asked him to stop it when he heard
3 somebody telling me. That should be on the audio.
4 (Videotape played)
5 A. I am familiar with the statement, but you should show
6 the room where I was, so that I can show you where it
7 was. Stop, please.
8 (Videotape stopped)
9 MR. MORAN: If we back it up just a tad, that is where you
10 look down and to the right to see the statement that was
11 written for you?
12 A. Can you show the desk where I was sitting, the desk that
13 was in front of me?
14 Q. Sir, I want to see where you look down and to the right,
15 where you describe that statement was. We can fast
16 forward it, we do not need to hear it. Unfortunately
17 I do not have the --
18 A. I do not understand what you are saying, but you do not
19 understand me either. I want to tell you that there is
20 a tape of the desk where I was sitting and of the chair
21 where I sat and there was a paper on the desk, and on
22 this paper there were the words that I was supposed to
23 read. You could see me on that tape reading.
24 Q. Sir, I am afraid I do not have that tape and that tape
25 is not in evidence, but I would submit to you at least
1 until this point of the tape, I will show you the rest
2 of it if you would like, I have not seen you look down
3 and to the right yet, and yet you testified earlier that
4 the document that you were reading from and people were
5 writing and prompting you to say those words, was off on
6 your right on a desk to your right.
7 A. Yes, there was a bed where Hazim Delic slept, there was
8 a desk and they sat next to me.
9 MR. MORAN: And they sat off to your right and you were
10 looking -- your Honour, let me make one quick look
11 through my notes. Your Honour, while I am looking
12 through my notes, can we play the rest of the tape? It
13 is just a couple more seconds, I think.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us have the tape and see whether it
15 will corroborate.
16 (Videotape played)
17 A. Stop. Here you can see me look to the side.
18 MR. MORAN: Back off, if we could. So that is looking down
19 and to your right, okay sir. We can run the rest of
21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, might I raise a matter?
22 (Videotape stopped)
23 MR. NIEMANN: Could the tape be taken back to the point where
24 it was when it commenced. It is very clear that he
25 appears to be looking at something and it is not that
1 section. I would ask that it be taken back for counsel
2 to see. This is the part here.
3 MR. MORAN: Let it run. Let us just run the whole thing
4 through. Whatever makes the court happy makes me happy,
5 judge. We can start at that point and just run it
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us have the tape from the beginning
8 and see how that fits in.
9 (Videotape played)
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You still think we need to watch this?
11 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, whatever makes the court happy.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is not the court's evidence, it is
13 the parties. You know why you want this tape. I think
14 it has nothing to do with the Trial Chamber.
15 MR. MORAN: Then stop, unless Mr. Niemann wants to show it
16 later or something, I am done with it.
17 (Videotape stopped)
18 MR. NIEMANN: I am happy for the moment, your Honour. I just
19 did not want to have to laboriously go through it again
20 in total in re-examination.
21 MR. MORAN: One last thing, sir. Remember probably in July
22 or August 1992 at the camp, when it became possible for
23 people's relatives to visit them, their wives, their
24 mothers, their sisters and leave them food and clothing
25 and things like that, do you remember that, some time in
1 July or August 1992?
2 A. Sometimes.
3 Q. As I understand it, the people that were in your family
4 for some reason were not able to get you that food and
5 clothing and things like that; is that a pretty fair
6 assessment of the situation? Maybe they were not around
7 or for whatever reason.
8 A. I did not have any relatives in Konjic and that was
9 fortunate for me.
10 Q. Is it not true that because you were one of the few
11 people that was not given packages by your relatives
12 that Mr. Delic would give you cigarettes in the evenings?
13 A. It happened twice.
14 MR. MORAN: Okay. Thank you very much, your Honour. Pass
15 the witness.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any re-examination?
17 Re-examined by MR. NIEMANN
18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kuljanin, just going back to the tape
19 that you were shown a moment ago, when I saw the tape
20 I counted at least four occasions when you appeared to
21 be looking on the screen to the right of the screen,
22 presumably it would have been to your left when you were
23 sitting there. Are they the occasions that you were
24 reading from the script that had been written for you?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. When this script -- did you know who wrote the script?
2 A. No, I just received some general outline of what I was
3 supposed to talk about.
4 Q. Who was in the room at the time?
5 A. I cannot remember those people. I do not know them.
6 Q. Was anyone armed or did anyone have any weapons or
7 implements in their possession at the time?
8 A. I can just remember very well that maybe half an hour or
9 an hour before that I was beaten so badly that I could
10 hardly sit on the chair and when I got into that room,
11 nothing happened, but all along the corridor and in
12 front of building number 22, that is where it happened.
13 Q. Were any of the people that beat you in that room at the
14 same time as you were required to read that statement?
15 A. Yes, Hazim Delic entered.
16 Q. Did he have anything in his hands at the time when he
17 was in the room?
18 A. I cannot remember. He was behind my back. He passed by
19 my side. He had a pistol in his belt.
20 Q. Were you asked whether or not you agreed with the
21 contents of the statement that you read out on that
23 A. No way, by no means.
24 Q. You said that just prior to being taken into the room
25 you had been beaten. On what part of the body had you
1 been beaten?
2 A. On my back and on my legs.
3 Q. When you were being cross-examined by Madam Residovic,
4 you made reference to a sniper rifle. Was this a
5 military sniper rifle?
6 A. No, I think I was quite clear that it was a small
7 calibre rifle that is used only for sports.
8 Q. Was it a rifle that was fitted with telescopic sights?
9 A. Yes, it did.
10 Q. You said when you left the JNA barracks at Mostar you
11 took with you two bombs. Do you mean hand grenades?
12 A. Hand grenades.
13 Q. Again in response to a question by Madam Residovic, you
14 referred to the person driving the IVECO van and there
15 is some uncertainty in the transcript as to who this
16 person was and the position that that person had at the
17 time. Can you just tell us who it was that was driving
18 the IVECO van and what position that person had?
19 A. I think it was the driver, he was the driver for the
20 entire camp.
21 Q. Did you know his name? If you do not know his name, it
22 is okay. If you did know, perhaps you could tell us.
23 A. No, I think his last name was Buric. I do not know what
24 his first name was.
25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Moran suggested to you that you were put
1 in the manhole to be taken out of harm's way because of
2 the drunk that attempted to stab you. Do you think from
3 what you could observe at the time whether it may have
4 been possible to put the drunk in the manhole?
5 MR. MORAN: Objection, your Honour. This calls for pure
7 MR. NIEMANN: If my friend was not suggesting that you were
8 not put in the manhole for that purpose then I will
9 withdraw the question.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If all you were correcting was that he
11 felt that was the way to protect him, I think that is
12 all he answered. He should be able to know whether that
13 was the purpose.
14 MR. NIEMANN: Do you think you were put in the manhole for
15 the purposes of being protected from the drunk?
16 A. I do not think so, no.
17 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions, your Honour.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, in view of Mr. Niemann's re-exam,
19 I know it is not ordinarily appropriate to do this and
20 this may be the only time I will request it in this
21 trial, it probably is, but because there is a matter
22 before the court that I think is unclear, I would like
23 to ask leave of the court to ask this witness an
24 additional question by way of demonstration basically.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Did it arise out of re-examination?
1 MR. ACKERMAN: It arose out of the re-examination based upon
2 whether or not this witness during the videotape was
3 reading a statement. I think I need to ask an
4 additional question about that just to try to clarify.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not know. You were the person who
6 introduced that video?
7 MR. ACKERMAN: I was not. It is a matter of concern to all
8 of us, of course, but I was not the one who introduced
9 it. I am in your Honour's hands. I am making the
10 request --
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am merely saying in terms of
12 procedure whether in fact it is one of your own
14 MR. ACKERMAN: In terms of procedure I may not be the proper
15 person to be doing it, but I am the one that is prepared
16 to do it at this point. If I could have a conference
17 with one of my colleagues, maybe the person who asked
18 the person would be prepared to do it, or maybe it is
19 not appropriate to do it at all, but I think it is and
20 I think it would help the Trial Chamber --
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you are still in doubt in the area,
22 perhaps one -- you can put the question.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, your Honour could I ask the
24 assistance of the usher to --
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have to be aware of one thing. The
1 witness has indicated that for everything to be clear,
2 the whole room ought to be shown, so the table where he
3 is sitting might be visible, but the handicap with which
4 we were watching, makes it difficult to get the whole
5 picture. We will still have you put your question and
6 let us see whether we can clarify the doubts.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Judge, I think maybe the matter is as clear as
8 it is going to get. I will abandon my effort. Thank
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Because I know the limitations within
11 which you will be asking the question.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, would you allow me to ask a
13 question that has to do with the cross-examination,
14 because I feel that after that we have still not cleared
15 this matter, and since that re-examination was based on
16 my cross-examination, the answers given now casts an
17 entirely different light and has given an entirely
18 different meaning to what was said, so if I could just
19 ask one more question?
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not know about the ambiguity you
21 are referring to which arises from the re-examination.
22 What is that question?
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: I will tell you immediately. I asked the
24 witness, I actually presented to the witness a statement
25 given to him by Ms. Sabina Manke on page 2 of the
1 English text of the statement, dated 23rd February, on
2 two occasions he said that Mr. Azinovic was present when
3 he left the manhole and when he was beaten for 40
4 minutes. The witness confirmed that. In
5 re-examination, Mr. Niemann asked the question regarding
8 this ambiguity I would just like the witness to state
9 whether there is a discrepancy in his statement or
10 whether he spoke about two different persons. It is one
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not regard this as a discrepancy.
13 If there is an additional person he might have mentioned
14 him, not that the first person you mentioned was not
15 there. He merely added someone else, that is all. That
16 does not affect your own cross-examination.
17 I think that is all we have for this witness. He
18 can be discharged.
19 (The witness withdrew)
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Our schedule for tomorrow is likely to
21 be slightly altered because of the proposal of the
22 Prosecution to start another witness tomorrow, but this
23 is still depending on whether this witness will be
24 coming because I hear the witness is still in the air
25 coming. Apart from that, if we have not this witness
1 tomorrow, then we will continue with our schedule of
2 arguing the motions which we have slated for tomorrow.
3 We have the Prosecution's motion of 8th July
4 regarding the admission of evidence, based on the sample
5 of an accused person, handwriting sample, and I think
6 the other motion is the Delalic motion for final
7 examination of the issue of admissibility of evidence.
8 These are the two motions we thought we would be taking
9 this afternoon. But since we could not finish before
10 now, we hope to take them tomorrow. But again as
11 I said, since we are still expecting this witness, we
12 hope -- we will start with the witness and see how far
13 we go, and I think this is because our two weekly
14 vacation comes on the 15th, and if we do not take this
15 witness, it is likely he will be staying here until we
16 resume, because another Trial Chamber is continuing
17 here, so we hope to take this witness tomorrow and see
18 how far we go. After we have disposed of his evidence,
19 then we can take on these arguments.
20 Because of this eventuality, we think all the
21 accused persons have to be here until we know whether we
22 do not need them. So the Trial Chamber will now rise
23 until tomorrow at 10.00.
24 (5.30 pm)
25 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)