The International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Case No.IT-96-21

  1. 1 Tuesday, 21st October, 1997

    2 (10.00 am)

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning ladies and gentlemen. We

    4 will have appearances.

    5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, my name is Niemann and I appear

    6 with my colleagues Mr. Turone and Mr. Khan for the

    7 Prosecution.

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can I have the appearances on behalf of

    9 the Defence?

    10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours. I am Edina

    11 Residovic, appearing on behalf of Mr. Zejnil Delalic

    12 together with my colleague Eugene O'Sullivan, professor

    13 from Canada.

    14 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning your Honours, I am Mr. Olujic, an

    15 attorney from Zagreb, Croatia, appearing on behalf of

    16 Mr. Mucic, together with attorney Michael Greaves, from

    17 the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland.

    18 MR. KARABDIC: I am Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo,

    19 Defence counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic, together with my

    20 colleague Tom Moran, attorney from Houston Texas.

    21 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning your Honours. I am John Ackerman

    22 and along with Cynthia McMurrey we appear on behalf of

    23 the defendant Mr. Esad Landzo.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Where do we start Mr. Niemann?

    25 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, the Prosecution has a number of

  2. 1 witnesses it wishes to call. The witnesses are in

    2 response to the subpoenas issued by your Honour. The

    3 first witness I wish to call is Fadil Zebic.

    4 MR. ACKERMAN: Before that witness comes, may I raise a

    5 matter with the Tribunal regarding this witness and

    6 others?

    7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may raise it.

    8 MR. ACKERMAN: On October 20th, Mr. Greaves and Mr. Karabdic,

    9 on behalf of all Defence Counsel, delivered a letter to

    10 the Victims and Witnesses Unit. The basic content of

    11 that letter was a request that the Victims and Witnesses

    12 Unit advise these witnesses upon their arrival in The

    13 Hague that Defence Counsel would like to have an

    14 opportunity to meet with them and visit with them prior

    15 to their testimony, to conduct interviews of the

    16 witnesses, since we have not had that opportunity, and

    17 no chance to have that opportunity up until now.

    18 We received a response back from the Victims and

    19 Witnesses Unit. Let me just read you a couple of

    20 paragraphs of it:

    21 "The content of the letter has been considered and

    22 it is the opinion of the Unit that this is a matter

    23 which should, as heretofore, be referred to the Officer

    24 of the Prosecutor. It is appreciated that time is of

    25 the essence as the witnesses will arrive late on this

  3. 1 date and are due to commence testifying on 21 October,

    2 197. However, it is considered any intervention such as

    3 you have proposed in your correspondence would have an

    4 adverse effect on the perceived impartiality of the

    5 Victims and Witnesses Unit. Your original letter is

    6 returned herewith."

    7 They then go on to say they stand ready to assist

    8 us in any way they can.

    9 The response, to me, is a bit bizarre. These are

    10 witnesses that were subpoenaed by this court to give

    11 evidence before this court, and it seems to me that they

    12 do not belong to any party, but they belong to the list

    13 of witnesses to come to give evidence before the court.

    14 I am quite certain that the Victims and Witnesses Unit

    15 facilitated their meeting with the Office of the

    16 Prosecutor, but have taken the position that any mention

    17 that we might want to talk to them might affect their

    18 impartiality. I think this is totally improper.

    19 I think it again shows, as we have seen one time in the

    20 past, a connection that exists between the Victims and

    21 Witnesses Unit and the Office of the Prosecutor that is

    22 improper, because of their announcement that they feel

    23 compelled to notify the Office of the Prosecutor that we

    24 have made this request.

    25 I would therefore ask your Honours that before any

  4. 1 of these witnesses testify that they be asked if they

    2 would consent to an interview with one or more of the

    3 Defence counsel and that we be given that opportunity to

    4 interview them before they are called here as

    5 witnesses. Thank you.

    6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Mr. Niemann, have you any reaction

    7 to this?

    8 MR. NIEMANN: This is the first I have heard of it, your

    9 Honours, and I resent any suggestion that there is any

    10 improper relationship between the Victims and Witnesses

    11 Unit and the Officer of the Prosecutor. These types of

    12 allegations are loosely made, it seems to me, by certain

    13 members of the Defence. In any event, your Honours,

    14 I do agree that these witnesses are free to be

    15 approached by the Defence if they wish. If the

    16 witnesses are prepared to talk to them, well and good.

    17 But I do say that we have here, in The Hague at

    18 the moment, all of the witnesses that we sought to

    19 subpoena. We are sitting for three days. The witnesses

    20 are very -- going to be very lengthy in the evidence

    21 they give. The first two witnesses will not be, but the

    22 others will be. The possibility of completing the

    23 evidence in the three day period is going to be very

    24 difficult, and I must say, just having spoken to a

    25 couple of the witnesses already, they are not pleased to

  5. 1 be here as a consequence of a subpoena and any delay in

    2 the taking of their evidence will not in any way make

    3 them any happier to be here, and may affect the evidence

    4 that they give.

    5 So, your Honours, all I can say is that

    6 I certainly do not suggest, for one minute, that the

    7 Defence are entitled to ask whether these witnesses are

    8 prepared to talk to them. If they are, that is a matter

    9 for the witness. But there is a matter of convenience

    10 of the court in taking the evidence. In my submission,

    11 any delay while these witnesses are spoken to can only

    12 be detrimental in terms of the business of the court.

    13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, before any determination is

    14 made, may I have the floor, please?

    15 JUDGE JAN: My impression was that the Defence had tried to

    16 contact them while they were in Saravejo. They refused

    17 to talk to us, I think that is what you said on the last

    18 occasion.

    19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, my learned colleague --

    20 JUDGE JAN: We said if you had any interest before we asked

    21 them to come over here, before we made the orders for

    22 any subpoenas, you said they refused to have any contact

    23 with us.

    24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, as far as I understood my

    25 learned colleague Mr. Ackerman who spoke on behalf of all

  6. 1 the Defence, he said only that the Victims and Witnesses

    2 Unit informed us that they cannot arrange it for us.

    3 Nobody has told us that this wish has been conveyed to

    4 the witnesses. Even Mr. Niemann has not confirmed that.

    5 That is why we would like this request to be conveyed to

    6 the witnesses. And, of course, as we have done in the

    7 past, we will respect the will of the witnesses, whether

    8 they wish to have any contact with the Defence or not.

    9 But that is not the only reason I have asked to speak.

    10 I seem to have heard, or at least that was the

    11 interpretation, that the Prosecutor informed us that the

    12 witness would be here for three days. Your Honours,

    13 these are witnesses of extreme interest for the Defence

    14 of my client, Mr. Delalic, and I would not like anyone to

    15 limit the right of Mr. Delalic to interrogate and

    16 cross-examine this witness. I think no witness,

    17 including these -- cannot have the privilege of being

    18 told for how long they will be here. I think we have

    19 never limited the time of the Prosecution for his

    20 witness, and we also will avail ourselves of our right

    21 to cross-examine the witness for as long as we consider

    22 necessary in the interests of the Defence of

    23 Mr. Delalic. Thank you.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose you can call the witness,

    25 call your first witness.

  7. 1 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please.

    2 (10.15 am)

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The view of the Trial Chamber is that

    4 the witnesses are here and you might be able to make

    5 whatever arrangements you can to speak to them; but the

    6 Trial Chamber is unable to postpone their testifying

    7 before you have interviewed them. If I understand the

    8 request of Mr. Ackerman to mean that while he would

    9 prefer prior interview with the witnesses, before they

    10 testify, we do not think we can do that. But they are

    11 available to you for all necessary cross-examination.

    12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there are a couple of practical

    13 problems that I need to bring to your attention and put

    14 in the record. First of all, these witnesses were

    15 acquired at the very last minute, as a result of

    16 subpoenas which required them to appear here very

    17 quickly after the subpoenas were issued. That gave

    18 neither the Defence nor the witnesses time to take any

    19 steps that they might have felt important with regard to

    20 them being interviewed by us or with regard to any

    21 rights they may have, in terms of their appearance

    22 here.

    23 The second problem is that the only way we could

    24 have access to these witnesses is through the good

    25 offices of the Victims and Witnesses Unit; and in the

  8. 1 letter that I quoted to you this morning the Victims and

    2 Witnesses Unit has indicated that they are not disposed

    3 to assist us with an effort to talk to the witnesses.

    4 We cannot approach them if we do not know where they

    5 are, or who they are, and until the Victims and

    6 Witnesses Unit has been advised by this Trial Chamber

    7 that they should assist us with our efforts to contact

    8 and talk with these witnesses we have no way of doing

    9 that. So even though the Tribunal has said that we may

    10 do that, it is practically impossible for us because we

    11 have no idea where they are, or in my case, at least,

    12 I would not recognise them if I saw them. That is the

    13 dilemma we now find them in.

    14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually this is your first application

    15 to the Trial Chamber for this purpose. If it was maybe

    16 before now perhaps I would have considered how to relay

    17 that to you before this testimony. Now they are here to

    18 testify. Then you can use the opportunity to ask

    19 whatever questions you would want. Okay, you can bring

    20 the witness in now.

    21 FADIL ZEBIC, (sworn)

    22 Examination-in-chief by MR. NIEMANN

    23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may sit down.

    24 MR. NIEMANN: Sir, could you please state your full name?

    25 A. My name is Fadil Zebic.

  9. 1 Q. Where were you born?

    2 A. In Jablanica.

    3 Q. And where did you spend most of your life, particularly

    4 your adult life?

    5 A. In Konjic.

    6 Q. What was your employment in Konjic.?

    7 A. Should I speak about all my jobs, or only the last one

    8 I held?

    9 Q. Perhaps I will make it more specific. What was your

    10 employment in the year of 1990?

    11 A. I worked for 35 years in Konjic in a number of

    12 companies, and the last one I worked for, starting from

    13 1989, was the public utilities company, Standard of

    14 Konjic.

    15 Q. What capacity did you have with that company?

    16 A. I was a director of the enterprise.

    17 Q. And how long were you director of the company? For what

    18 period of time? Until what year?

    19 A. From 1989 until 1994.

    20 Q. And who became director in 1994?

    21 A. Emir Dautbegovic.

    22 Q. What was the nature of the work of the company? What

    23 work did it do?

    24 A. The founder of this company was the Konjic

    25 municipality. By its decision it defined the activities

  10. 1 within our competence.

    2 Q. What were those activities?

    3 A. To supply the town and surrounding settlements with

    4 water, public hygiene in the city and the surrounding

    5 settlements, maintenance of parks and greenery,

    6 management of market places, and funeral activities.

    7 Q. And in relation to funeral activities, what work was

    8 performed by the company? What role did it play? Did

    9 it do the whole range of activities from autopsies right

    10 through to burials, or was there just a part of that

    11 work that it performed?

    12 A. As far as these activities are concerned, we managed the

    13 city cemetery, and we provided the services of

    14 transportation and burial of the dead person.

    15 Q. I would ask you to look at a document I will now show

    16 you, if I may, with the assistance of the usher. This

    17 is a document that the Defence will no doubt be aware

    18 of, but I ask that one copy be given to them because

    19 they are aware of it. There is one copy for his

    20 Honour. Might the witness be given a copy? Perhaps it

    21 might be allocated the next number in order of

    22 Prosecution exhibits.

    23 THE REGISTRAR: The document 185.

    24 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Zebic, I would ask you to look at that

    25 document and just read through it, if you would,

  11. 1 please. Mr. Zebic, have you brought another document

    2 into court with you that you have before you, other than

    3 the one I have just handed to you? What is the document

    4 that you have shown there?

    5 A. When I went to come here, I took it out of the

    6 archives. It has the same number as this document.

    7 Q. Is that an original copy of the document that I showed

    8 you?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. And you brought that from Konjic with you, when you came

    11 this time?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And have you compared that original copy with the

    14 document that I showed you?

    15 A. I have. I have.

    16 Q. And is the copy that I gave you, Exhibit 185, is that an

    17 original or a copy of the original of the document that

    18 you have the copy for?

    19 A. It is.

    20 Q. And can you tell me what the document is that I gave

    21 you, Exhibit 185? What is it?

    22 A. At the request of the Defence counsel Edina Residovic,

    23 in June last year, on 24th June, 1996, we issued this

    24 certificate for the services provided in 1992, for some

    25 -- in some cases the funeral and transportation and for

  12. 1 others only the transportation.

    2 Q. And that is in relation to the people whose names are

    3 mentioned on this document, is it, numbered 1 to 9?

    4 A. Right.

    5 Q. Do you notice at the bottom of the document it appears

    6 to have been signed by someone with the name Kemal

    7 Dzajic?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Who is that person?

    10 A. He was the director who came from Ornis, another

    11 company, in 1994. He came when Emir Dautbegovic

    12 abandoned the company.

    13 Q. What was your position in relation to Mr. Dzajic?

    14 A. I was the deputy director and he was in charge of the

    15 economic and accounting department.

    16 Q. And the document that -- you see the signature that

    17 appears on the bottom of the document. Did you see that

    18 signature being affixed to the document?

    19 A. No. It was signed in my presence, and in the presence

    20 of Ms. Edina Residovic.

    21 Q. So you were there at the time when Mr. Sejic signed the

    22 document?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Now, the information that is contained in the document

    25 in relation to the people mentioned there, where did

  13. 1 that information come from?

    2 A. In order to explain this, I have to say that in 1992 the

    3 War Presidency of Konjic's municipality established the

    4 wartime assignment of our firm, and the wartime schedule

    5 of workplaces.

    6 Q. And --

    7 A. Among the other activities that I listed a moment ago,

    8 we were assigned other activities, such as market

    9 services, the maintenance of parks; but our main task

    10 was to provide water supply for citizens and funeral

    11 services. This was determined by a decision of the

    12 municipal assembly.

    13 Q. During the course of 1992, what records did the company

    14 keep in relation to its funeral services?

    15 A. It is rather difficult to explain now, because under

    16 conditions of war our number was limited. We had only

    17 13 employees. I was in charge, together with a director

    18 and the typist, and we had to leave our offices and move

    19 to another building, to the cellar of that building,

    20 actually to another section of that building, to the

    21 basement.

    22 Q. Are you able to tell us what records were kept, in these

    23 conditions that you have explained?

    24 A. Hardly any. In the case of funerals, a record of the

    25 victims of the war was maintained by a municipal

  14. 1 commission. I think it was called for the Exchange and

    2 Burial of Persons Killed in the War. The War Presidency

    3 also formed that commission at the time.

    4 Q. So were any records kept of the people that your company

    5 dealt with in relation to the funeral services that it

    6 provided?

    7 A. For these persons who were killed in the war records

    8 were kept by this commission. We only kept a record of

    9 the transportation of the body, which my workers, in

    10 most cases, never saw; and this transport ended with the

    11 delivery to the family, or, as in the case under number

    12 1, 2, 8 and 9, they were brought to the municipal

    13 mortuary.

    14 Q. How did you know that they were brought to the municipal

    15 mortuary?

    16 A. The drivers that performed that activity would inform

    17 me, and at that time the mortuary was operational, and

    18 the register of dead people was kept, so that we have

    19 data stating where and under which number in the

    20 cemetery and in which part of the cemetery were people

    21 buried. Under the number 1, Zeljko, son of Milana

    22 Milosevic, also Slavoljuba Pere Susic, Posko Samoukovic

    23 and Zeljko Klimenta. The numbers under 3, 4, 5, 6 and

    24 7, for those numbers, upon the request of

    25 Ms. Residovic, we found, on the basis of the memory of

  15. 1 certain of our workers, we found the data. But at that

    2 time, early 1993, a shell destroyed our vehicle, the

    3 funeral vehicle, and there, in a drawer, half burned,

    4 remained the book, the register of all orders for

    5 transportation.

    6 That is how we call it, basically the driver would

    7 write down the transportation of a corpse from Celebici;

    8 number 3 was in Bradina or in number 4 it was to Donje

    9 Selo from Celebici, or from Celebici to Bjelovcina or

    10 Celebici to Bradina. The bodies were delivered to the

    11 family, or to friends. This was done by my men,

    12 together with a member of the municipal commission that

    13 I have mentioned a moment ago, and those people kept the

    14 Registry.

    15 From that book that was burned, we tried to

    16 reconstruct something, so we managed to find the workers

    17 that did the transport, that participated in the

    18 transportation and according to their memory we tried to

    19 write that down. It was not really any kind of a

    20 notebook or a notepad because at that time we lacked

    21 paper, so we simply put together with -- and stapled 30

    22 or 40 pieces of paper, and that is how we kept our

    23 registry. So we put that particular certificate in our

    24 archives, and then once we have done that we destroyed

    25 the actual order for transportation, because at that

  16. 1 time we also moved into another building, the building

    2 where we were before we had been shelled, and still

    3 nowadays we are in this new building.

    4 So, for the people who are registered under number

    5 3, 4 and 5 and 6, that is how we established the facts;

    6 and the dates were found in the order for

    7 transportation. Whether this -- that person had died on

    8 that particular day, that is something that me or, that

    9 is, my company, cannot affirm.

    10 Q. It says "transport Celebici Bradina". The reference to

    11 Celebici, do you know where in Celebici the bodies were

    12 collected?

    13 A. I never left my office, that is the cellar, because we

    14 only had one telephone and one line.

    15 Q. Did the records suggest to you or indicate where in

    16 Celebici the bodies had been collected from, from what

    17 you can recall?

    18 A. On the basis of this travel order I spoke of, the only

    19 locality that is mentioned is Celebici, because we did

    20 not use to put in these travel orders where the body

    21 came from, not any specified place. They would just

    22 mention the town, because simply the transportation fees

    23 were paid according to the number of kilometres.

    24 Q. Do you know whether or not autopsies were carried out on

    25 any of these bodies?

  17. 1 A. Not in our mortuary.

    2 Q. Do you know whether or not they were carried out in any

    3 other mortuary?

    4 A. I cannot recall.

    5 Q. Was it customary for autopsies to be carried out during

    6 the course of 1992? I speak specifically of the summer

    7 and autumn of 1992.

    8 A. I do not know what was done in the hospital, whether

    9 they carried out any autopsies, but in our mortuary, we

    10 simply did not have the possibility to do that, neither

    11 we did any.

    12 Q. Do you know whether any death certificates were issued,

    13 particularly in relation to these people?

    14 A. We never issued death certificates. In Konjic, what was

    15 done in general was if a person died in the hospital

    16 then the physician would establish that the person had

    17 died, and then inform the family, issue a small

    18 certificate, and then the family would go to the

    19 municipal department, which I think was called the

    20 Registrar of Born and Dead People, and that registry

    21 would issue a death certificate. That is how it was

    22 done before the war. Whether such documents were issued

    23 during the war, I do not know.

    24 Q. Do you know a person called, or did you know a person

    25 called Simo Jovanovic?

  18. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. And when did you know him?

    3 A. We went to school together.

    4 Q. And did he die, so far as you know?

    5 A. I do not know the nature of his death. I really do not

    6 know that, but the burial was an ordinary one. His

    7 son-in-law, whose surname was Muftic and whose first

    8 name I do not know, I cannot recall, but his nickname

    9 was Kina. At that time, he was the member of the HVO.

    10 So he came to me, and he registered the death, and he

    11 transported him to our mortuary, and asked from us for

    12 the funeral services, so we carried out the burial. It

    13 was done by our company.

    14 Q. Did you attend the funeral of Simo Jovanovic?

    15 A. Yes, I did.

    16 Q. And when did you attend that funeral, approximately?

    17 A. I cannot remember exactly. It was either at the end of

    18 June or in early July.

    19 Q. Of what year?

    20 A. 1992.

    21 Q. And I ask you to look at another document. Perhaps that

    22 document can be returned to the Registrar, and with the

    23 assistance of the usher, I would ask you to have a look

    24 at another document. A copy of this has also been made

    25 available for your Honours, and one for the Defence.

  19. 1 JUDGE JAN: You should make copies for the judges also, so

    2 we can have a look of these documents.

    3 MR. NIEMANN: I have one, your Honour.

    4 JUDGE JAN: I did not see a copy of the last document.

    5 MR. NIEMANN: I made one available for your Honours. It is

    6 the same with this one, one copy each for your Honours.

    7 There should be an English translation and an original.

    8 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, I think we may have been

    9 distributed some extra copies of 185.

    10 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps the Defence might be able to hand those

    11 to your Honour.

    12 MR. MORAN: I think we were given the court copies as well as

    13 our own. Perhaps we can get someone over here to pass

    14 them around.

    15 MR. NIEMANN: I would ask that the document that I have now

    16 --

    17 THE REGISTRAR: The document of the Prosecutor is marked as

    18 186.

    19 MR. NIEMANN: The new one handed to your Honours now is 186.

    20 There should be a copy of both. Your Honour should have

    21 a copy of both the Serbo-Croat version and the

    22 translation in English. I ask your Honours have that in

    23 front of you while I am asking the witness about it.

    24 I do not believe your Honours have been given a

    25 copy of the Serbo-Croat.

  20. 1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is the certificate of death.

    2 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. Mr. Zebic, the document that you have now

    3 been shown, document number 186, looking generally at

    4 that document, in your experience of the business that

    5 you worked in, in Konjic, in 1989 to 1994, is this a

    6 document that is familiar to you?

    7 A. First of all, it is the first time I see this document.

    8 Secondly, as I have said, just a moment ago, before the

    9 war, it is sure that this department, the registry,

    10 would issue such documents. This is the death

    11 certificate. Such a document, with this coat of arms of

    12 Bosnia Herzegovina like that, is the first time I have

    13 seen it. Nobody has died in my family, so I never went

    14 for such a document to be issued.

    15 Q. I have no further questions of the witness.

    16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There may be cross-examinations by the

    17 Defence.

    18 MR. O'SULLIVAN: We will proceed in this way, first counsel

    19 for Mr. Delalic, second counsel for Mr. Mucic, third

    20 counsel for Mr. Delic and fourth counsel for Mr. Landzo.

    21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, taking into account your

    22 previous decision, I would like to ask you whether

    23 I could ask the witness to talk to me as a counsel for

    24 Defence before I start with cross-examination?

    25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I told you I was not in a position to

  21. 1 do that now. That was what I said. That would require

    2 postponing the cross-examination until each counsel had

    3 spoken to the witness, would it not? That will be the

    4 implication.

    5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I would only like to talk to

    6 him for some 10 minutes, and that would not prejudge the

    7 lengthening of this trial or the postponing of the

    8 cross-examination which I intend to do with this

    9 witness.

    10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, I think that will be with the

    11 consent of the witness; is it?

    12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes.

    13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you ask the witness whether he

    14 would wish to speak to counsel before he is

    15 cross-examined?

    16 A. Yes. Yes.

    17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That I hear. We can give him 10

    18 minutes if he is willing to speak to counsel. We will

    19 rise.

    20 JUDGE JAN: It is an extraordinary situation, since these

    21 witnesses had no opportunity to talk.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, the witnesses arrived last night

    23 at 9 o'clock. That was the earliest they could get

    24 here.

    25 JUDGE JAN: In the meanwhile I suppose the witnesses can be

  22. 1 asked whether they would like to talk to Defence or

    2 not. It is only if they agree that we can permit that.

    3 MR. NIEMANN: I will undertake to do that.

    4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much your Honours.

    5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, it seems to me that if all counsel

    6 want to speak to the witness then we should adjourn for

    7 sufficient time to permit that to happen rather than

    8 come in or come out.

    9 JUDGE JAN: I believe you have two company directors

    10 relating to funerals. They can be finished in the

    11 meanwhile.

    12 MR. NIEMANN: As I understand it, counsel wants to speak to

    13 every one.

    14 JUDGE JAN: Yes, they can. First we have to find out

    15 whether the witnesses will talk to them.

    16 MR. NIEMANN: We will do that. The point I am making is if

    17 all counsel want to speak to this witness I suggest that

    18 10 minutes probably would not be sufficient time, if it

    19 is going to be on the basis that they want 10 minutes to

    20 talk.

    21 JUDGE JAN: No, 10 minutes for all.

    22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is awkward. The first witness is

    23 willing to, I suppose, you can all meet him together,

    24 and discuss whatever you want to, because I do not think

    25 the Trial Chamber will be willing to give as many as 10

  23. 1 minutes to each counsel to talk to him, going in and

    2 out. I think it is necessary for the properness of the

    3 trial.

    4 JUDGE JAN: So far as this witness is concerned, I think 10

    5 minutes for all counsel should be sufficient.

    6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, I think that this matter be

    7 accounted fairly easily after we get through this first

    8 day. There will be lots of time this evening when these

    9 witnesses can be made available to us, those that will

    10 be testifying tomorrow. It may be that this can all be

    11 accomplished without interfering with the schedule of

    12 the Trial Chamber. I know it is a bit awkward this

    13 morning, but the witnesses have just arrived. I think

    14 it is fair we should be given the opportunity. I would

    15 appreciate the court's indulgence in that manner.

    16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will rise and then

    17 come back at, let us say, 11.10 we should be back.

    18 (10.55 am)

    19 (Short break)

    20 (11.10 am)

    21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, so far we have spoken to the next

    22 witness, Kemal Dzajic. He is prepared to speak to

    23 Defence Counsel. And we have spoken to General Arif

    24 Pasalic. He is prepared to speak to Defence Counsel on

    25 condition that there is a member of the Office of the

  24. 1 Prosecutor, namely myself, there during the course of

    2 discussion with Defence Counsel. We have spoken to

    3 General Ramic and General Ramic is considering the

    4 matter. So far we have not been able to speak to

    5 General Divjak.

    6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This experience, we consider what we

    7 might do is that we will continue with the

    8 cross-examination now; and then all these other

    9 interviews can be made subsequently, not interrupt

    10 whatever proceedings we have. As long as the witness is

    11 prepared to speak to anyone I think he should have the

    12 opportunity to do so.

    13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

    14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I am wondering what the

    15 Tribunal's pleasure is with regard to the normal 11.30

    16 break. Mr. Landzo and Mr. Mucic were not allowed to leave

    17 the courtroom during this short break and so we are

    18 running up against some needs that they have. I just do

    19 not what you intend to do.

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We could have had a 30 minutes break if

    21 we had no interruptions, and then returned at 12. That

    22 was the only break we should have had. I do not know;

    23 we might still continue until 1 o'clock and then break

    24 for lunch, except there is anything pressing.

    25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, Mr. Landzo and Mr. Mucic were not

  25. 1 allowed to leave the courtroom during the short break we

    2 just had. They have some biological needs we need to

    3 pay some attention to, I think.

    4 JUDGE JAN: They want to go to the bathroom, I think.

    5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose if you could spare us only

    6 five minutes we might then have a short

    7 cross-examination break and come back at 12.

    8 MR. ACKERMAN: It is totally up to the Tribunal what you want

    9 to do with that. We do need one at some point fairly

    10 soon.

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So we can have this witness and then we

    12 will break and come back at 12. During that period the

    13 Defence might be able, in co-operation with the

    14 Prosecution, to have the discussion with any other

    15 witness who is willing. This is not an order from the

    16 court, but merely observing whether the witness is

    17 willing to speak to the Defence.

    18 Ms. Residovic, can we have you continue for just

    19 five minutes? Then we will break.

    20 Cross-examination by MS. RESIDOVIC

    21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honours, for allowing me to

    22 contact, even though shortly, the witness. I would also

    23 like to thank the witness who was prepared to talk to

    24 Defence counsel for Mr. Delalic.

    25 Hello, Mr. Zebic.

  26. 1 A. Hello.

    2 Q. As you know, my name is Edina Residovic and I am the

    3 Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic. Mr. Zebic, before

    4 I proceed with starting questions, I would just like to

    5 give you a warning, which is necessary in order that the

    6 Trial Chamber and all the others in the courtroom could

    7 follow what we are talking. We speak the same language,

    8 and I could ask a question to which you could answer

    9 very quickly. But interpreters there, sitting in the

    10 booths, cannot translate very quickly either what I say

    11 or what you answer. So, I would like to ask you to pay

    12 attention, through the headphones that are on the table

    13 next to you. Through those headphones you can hear the

    14 translation of whatever I say of all my questions into

    15 English. Only when this has been translated please

    16 answer. Have you understood that?

    17 A. Am I to change the headphones?

    18 Q. No, do not change the headphones. What you are going to

    19 hear from the headphones is what I ask, on the ones that

    20 you have. The other headphones that are on the table,

    21 I am going to ask that the volume is increased, because

    22 this is the voice that all the people who do not speak

    23 our language listen to. Only when you hear that the

    24 translation has stopped, answer my question.

    25 Mr. Zebic, you came in front of this court after a

  27. 1 subpoena has been issued, is that correct?

    2 A. No, it is not.

    3 Q. Does that mean, Mr. Zebic, that you were ready from the

    4 beginning to answer the communication of this court and

    5 come and appear in front of this court as a witness?

    6 A. Yes, I was.

    7 Q. When you were first asked by the people from the Office

    8 of the Prosecutor you gave your statement straight away?

    9 A. That is correct.

    10 MR. KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think you can

    11 continue at 12 o'clock.

    12 JUDGE JAN: In the meantime they can talk, if the witness is

    13 prepared.

    14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I have told him that. The Trial

    15 Chamber will now rise and come back at 12.00.

    16 (11.30 am)

    17 (Short break)

    18 (12.00 pm)

    19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the witness he is still

    20 on his oath.

    21 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you are still under

    22 oath.

    23 A. I understand that.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, you can continue with

    25 your cross-examination.

  28. 1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honours. Mr. Zebic, before

    2 we continue, may I draw your attention to the following:

    3 I shall try to make my questions brief and precise.

    4 I should like to ask you to try to answer them, also, as

    5 briefly and as concisely as possible, except when you

    6 feel that you need to make a clarification of importance

    7 for the Tribunal. Also, should you not understand the

    8 question, please feel free to ask me to repeat or

    9 re-phrase the question. Have you understood me?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Thank you. Before the break, you had just told the

    12 Trial Chamber, in answer to my question, that from the

    13 very beginning you were ready to co-operate with the

    14 Tribunal, and to make a statement at the Tribunal's

    15 request?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. In the course of our conversation today, is it true that

    18 you told me that your wife is ill, and that your wife

    19 fell ill in the course of this last war?

    20 A. I did.

    21 Q. Is it true that it is very difficult for you,

    22 personally, to leave your wife for any length of time?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Is it also true to say, Mr. Zebic, that your wife finds

    25 it very difficult to cope with stressful situations, and

  29. 1 that you are doing your best to protect her from such

    2 situations?

    3 A. Yes. In fact, she has been warned by her doctor, her

    4 neuro-psychiatrist, that I should be with her as much as

    5 possible, that I should not leave her alone.

    6 Q. All these facts that you have now stated to the

    7 Tribunal, have you conveyed those same facts to the

    8 representative of the Prosecution?

    9 A. Yes, with the exception of this part about my wife. We

    10 did not discuss her.

    11 Q. Mr. Zebic, did you ever refuse to testify before the

    12 Trial Chamber?

    13 A. No, I never refused to testify before this honourable

    14 Tribunal. At the beginning of September this year,

    15 I was called up from The Hague, I think it must have

    16 been by Ms. Wendy -- Wendy Lobwein, I hope I pronounce it

    17 correctly. We discussed the problem of my wife. I was

    18 supposed to appear at the Tribunal between 9th and 13th

    19 September, and I asked this lady to try, with the

    20 Registry, to inform the Tribunal of my situation, and

    21 I sent a fax requesting if my appearance could be

    22 postponed for a certain period, and forwarding all the

    23 physicians' findings from 1994 until this year, which

    24 was enclosed with this request.

    25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zebic. Is it true, Mr. Zebic, that when

  30. 1 you leave Konjic you have to leave your wife under

    2 constant medical care?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Is that the reason why --

    5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I am going to object to this.

    6 Your Honours, basically my objection is relevance. Of

    7 what possible relevance is this? If the witness wishes

    8 to address the Chamber in terms of challenging the

    9 subpoena on good grounds, that is entirely a matter for

    10 the witnesses. The witnesses may do that. It is not

    11 for Counsel for the Defence to take it upon themselves

    12 to abandon their appropriate responsibilities and then

    13 somehow or other appear to act for this witness. In my

    14 submission, this is irrelevant and I object to it on

    15 those grounds.

    16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, may I continue with my

    17 cross-examination?

    18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think I share his view that it is

    19 completely irrelevant to what is here to see. You have

    20 your cross-examination, I agree. There are certain

    21 circumstances under which most other things not directly

    22 relevant could be asked, but I do not think this is

    23 necessary with this witness, because I am sure you are

    24 familiar with the efforts to get these witnesses, even

    25 to get them on video conferencing. I do not see the

  31. 1 need for these questions.

    2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, one of the basic rules of

    3 this Tribunal is to provide a fair trial and protection

    4 of the witness is an important part of our Code of

    5 Conduct before the Tribunal. As the Defence attorney of

    6 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, as an amicus curiae, I have put

    7 certain questions and I think in the interest of the

    8 protection of this and any future witnesses of any

    9 certain measures that may be taken against them, I think

    10 we, the Defence, have the right to put such questions.

    11 MR. KARIBI-WHYTE: Questions about his wife's illness and the

    12 difficulty of leaving her? Are those the questions you

    13 have the right to put.

    14 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, your Honours. I want to point out that

    15 this witness never refused to appear before the

    16 Tribunal.

    17 JUDGE JAN: He has already said that. Proceed further.

    18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has said sufficient for that.

    19 MS. RESIDOVIC: I will ask my second question and last

    20 question in this area. Mr. Zebic, do you consider that

    21 there were no grounds for this measure to be taken

    22 against you on the basis of facts which were beyond your

    23 control?

    24 MR. NIEMANN: I object to this question, your Honour, and

    25 I object to counsel appearing as amicus curiae. Amicus

  32. 1 curiae: something to be granted with leave of the court

    2 to come before the court. This counsel is appointed to

    3 appear for her client, not as amicus curiae. I object

    4 to her putting questions on that basis. It is entirely

    5 inappropriate to pursue this line of questioning,

    6 notwithstanding your Honour has already pointed out the

    7 fact that you consider this line of question to be

    8 irrelevant. I object to this question and I object to

    9 the witness answering it.

    10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, may I simply rise in the support

    11 of the asking of these questions on this ground --

    12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What grounds?

    13 MR. ACKERMAN: On this ground: pleadings were filed before

    14 this Tribunal within the last two weeks which indicated

    15 that the Officer of the Prosecutor had spoken with this

    16 man, that he had refused to come to The Hague and give

    17 testimony, and that he had said that the only way he

    18 would do that is by video link. I think a serious

    19 question arises as to whether or not the Prosecutor was

    20 being totally honest and truthful with this Tribunal in

    21 making those requests. I think that raises a serious

    22 matter that this Tribunal should be very concerned with.

    23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that has been established

    24 sufficiently in his answers, that he had at no time

    25 refused to come and testify.

  33. 1 MR. ACKERMAN: What he said was he was always willing to come

    2 testify. He asked for a postponement when asked to come

    3 in September. The Prosecution has advised you in their

    4 pleadings that he actually refused to come and therefore

    5 had to be subpoenaed and he would only testify by

    6 video link. Those things are true.

    7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Those are on record, it is not

    8 necessary to proceed like this. We have the records.

    9 It has been established. Yes?

    10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. I will go on to some other

    11 questions.

    12 Mr. Zebic, as you have already answered to question

    13 of the Prosecutor, regarding 1992, when you held the

    14 position of general manager of the public utilities

    15 company, Standard, in Konjic, is that correct?

    16 A. It is.

    17 Q. You also answered that this company engaged, among other

    18 tasks, in providing funeral services to all the citizens

    19 -- citizens of Konjic?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Will you please wait for the interpretation before

    22 answering my question?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Mr. Zebic, throughout the time of the war you were in

    25 Konjic, were you not?

  34. 1 A. I was.

    2 Q. As a citizen of Bosnia Herzegovina you are aware that

    3 on 1st March, 1992, a referendum for independence was

    4 held in Bosnia Herzegovina, was it not?

    5 A. It was.

    6 Q. You also know that all the citizens, all the inhabitants

    7 of Bosnia Herzegovina could have, if they wanted to,

    8 participate in that referendum and cast their vote?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. You also know, Mr. Zebic, that on the basis of the

    11 results of that referendum Bosnia Herzegovina was

    12 proclaimed an independent state on the 6th April?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. However, you probably know, Mr. Zebic, that it was on

    15 that very day that the former JNA, with the assistance

    16 of various paramilitary formations from Serbia and

    17 Montenegro and parts of the Serbian population from

    18 Bosnia and Herzegovina, committed aggression against

    19 Bosnia Herzegovina, is that correct?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Like the other citizens of Bosnia Herzegovina, you

    22 could have, thanks to Television Sarajevo, followed the

    23 developments in Sarajevo that look place in front of the

    24 assembly building of Bosnia Herzegovina which virtually

    25 meant the beginning of the unconcealed aggression on

  35. 1 Bosnia Herzegovina. Were you able to see that?

    2 A. Yes, I did watch.

    3 Q. However, Mr. Zebic, at that time you were actually in

    4 Konjic, were you not?

    5 A. Yes. Yes.

    6 Q. And you were a witness of the fact that those events

    7 greatly disturbed and caused panic amongst the citizens

    8 who could not believe that such an aggression could be

    9 conducted against our country?

    10 A. Yes, we were surprised.

    11 Q. As an inhabitant of Konjic you certainly know, and if

    12 you do please confirm this, that the town of Konjic was

    13 already in mid April 1992 virtually totally surrounded

    14 and that it was not possible to leave the town or get

    15 into the town, is that true?

    16 A. At first I was not aware of that. I was surprised later

    17 on when the aggression started and when the war began.

    18 I saw that we were indeed surrounded on the north

    19 towards Sarajevo and to the south towards Mostar.

    20 Q. But also, Mr. Zebic, on the east towards Lake Boridz and

    21 Nevesinje too?

    22 A. Of course, clearly I forgot to mention that. I did not

    23 think that report was important, the route leading to

    24 Nevesinje. The Chetniks captured Lake Boridz and they

    25 reached the heights near Konjic, 5 kilometres from

  36. 1 the centre of the city, the slopes of Borasnica and

    2 Kisera, from where they operated and shelled the town of

    3 Konjic. That is the southern and south eastern side.

    4 Q. You just said that this area in the direction of Lake

    5 Boridz, you did not think it was so important. Was that

    6 because the main road that you mentioned comes from the

    7 north, leading southwards, an area that you also

    8 mentioned and which is the only asphalt road linking

    9 Sarajevo to Mostar and Ploce?

    10 A. Yes. Yes.

    11 Q. Therefore it is correct to say that Konjic is situated

    12 on the main road which is of vital significance for

    13 Bosnia Herzegovina and particularly for the town of

    14 Konjic?

    15 A. Yes. Both in terms of road and rail traffic.

    16 Q. As an inhabitant of Konjic, you are also aware that the

    17 northern-most point of your municipality and this road

    18 leading to Sarajevo is the village of Bradina and

    19 through the tunnel, under Mount Istvan you pass from

    20 Herzegovina into Bosnia, is that correct?

    21 A. It is.

    22 Q. Can you confirm before this Trial Chamber that

    23 intercepting the road at Bradina, or blocking the road

    24 at Bradina, would mean totally preventing the people of

    25 Konjic from reaching Sarajevo?

  37. 1 A. That goes without saying.

    2 Q. Is it true that on the southern and south western

    3 approaches to the town, 10 to 15 kilometres in the

    4 direction of Jablanica, Celebici and Donje Selo, which,

    5 if blocked, prevent leaving Konjic and going southwards,

    6 that is towards Zrebnica and Mostar?

    7 A. Celebici is 6 kilometres on the rail and main road, and

    8 Donje Selo is 3 kilometres from Konjic on the railway

    9 line, without any stops in between.

    10 Q. Mr. Zebic, in answer to the question of the Prosecutor,

    11 you said that your work -- you had a work assignment in

    12 your company, is that true?

    13 A. I said that the War Presidency had restructured our

    14 activities and indicated the most significant

    15 assignments we had, and as the manager of the enterprise

    16 and according to the wartime schedule of assignments

    17 I got a decision on my work assignment, together with

    18 some other employees.

    19 Q. So, Mr. Zebic, you were aware of the fact that in the

    20 state of Bosnia Herzegovina the state of immediate

    21 damage was proclaimed already in the beginning of April,

    22 is that correct?

    23 A. It is.

    24 Q. On the basis -- on that decision you do know, Mr. Zebic,

    25 that there was general mobilisation that was proclaimed

  38. 1 in Konjic and the people of military age were not

    2 allowed to go out of the town?

    3 A. That is correct.

    4 Q. Could you confirm in front of this Tribunal, Mr. Zebic,

    5 that these were normal decisions of the legal

    6 authorities of the municipality of Konjic, taking into

    7 account the fact of the immediate war damage -- the

    8 state of immediate damage of war that had been

    9 proclaimed?

    10 A. Bosnia Herzegovina in it official gazette has

    11 proclaimed general mobilisation. On the basis of that

    12 official gazette the municipality of Konjic and its War

    13 Presidency had also proclaimed the state of war.

    14 Q. Could you, Mr. Zebic, confirm that your work assignment

    15 was in fact a military assignment, in a state of

    16 immediate war danger Jablanica?

    17 A. Yes, specially because the activities that our company

    18 carried out were of special interest to our

    19 municipality. It was normal that such a state be

    20 proclaimed in our company, because, as one can see from

    21 the very name of our company, it was a public utilities

    22 company which was created by, established by, the

    23 municipality of Konjic. On the basis of that act we were

    24 all issued with a work assignment and we had to act in

    25 accordance with the requirements of the general

  39. 1 interests of our municipality.

    2 Q. Mr. Zebic, you have already mentioned that the attack on

    3 our country provoked a great surprise and panic. Could

    4 you please tell me as an inhabitant of Konjic, were you

    5 already in April -- have you heard, through Radio

    6 Konjic, the threats made by General Kukanjac that he

    7 would shell Konjic?

    8 A. Yes. Every inhabitant of Konjic heard that, because it

    9 was on local radio and local television; and also the

    10 television and radio of Bosnia Herzegovina have also

    11 announced this threat of General Kukanjac.

    12 Q. Mr. Zebic, as you answered to the questions of the

    13 Prosecutor and you spoke about the conditions in which

    14 your company operated, you are certainly aware of the

    15 fact of the general conditions, the general state in

    16 which the town was, and you personally?

    17 A. Yes, I was.

    18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, you will allow me to show a

    19 video to the witness. These are video films made by the

    20 television that had been provided to the Chamber already

    21 a long time ago. I would like on the basis of this

    22 video to ask additional questions to the witness.

    23 I would like to ask the technical booth to show the

    24 video film number 1.

    25 At the same time, Mr. Zebic, I would like to ask

  40. 1 you, in case you have a pen and a paper, please while

    2 you are watching the video could you note, in case you

    3 can see, what you recognise.

    4 (Video played)

    5 Q. Mr. Zebic, having viewed the video, could you now tell

    6 me, which town have you recognised on this video?

    7 A. My town, Konjic.

    8 Q. Now that you have recognised the town of Konjic, could

    9 you please tell me, Mr. Zebic, whether the first part of

    10 the video-- this first video is the threat -- after the

    11 threat of General Kukanjac when there was general alarm

    12 and have you recognised --

    13 A. Yes, I have recognised the new and the old bridge. One

    14 of them was, the old one was destroyed in the Second

    15 World War and then reconstructed. This was the new

    16 bridge, as well as the junction in front of the

    17 university, the People's University.

    18 Q. After that one could see the cemetery. Could you please

    19 tell us whether you have recognised that part of the

    20 video?

    21 A. Yes. That was our main cemetery in Konjic, and our

    22 company is managing that cemetery, and I recognised

    23 others, grounds. First the Muslim cemetery; next to it

    24 is the Catholic cemetery and later on towards the south

    25 east is the Orthodox cemetery, which is near the

  41. 1 Catholic cemetery; and that is all -- in the part that

    2 we call Musala in Konjic. This is the cemetery called

    3 Musala.

    4 Q. Mr. Zebic, on that video you also saw a date, the 4th

    5 May. Could you tell me, is it true that on 4th May the

    6 first shelling of the centre of the town started, when

    7 during those shellings there was a very strong shelling

    8 of the town cemetery?

    9 A. I remember it very well that first day of the shelling,

    10 the 4th May. I was in my office in the company, in my

    11 company; it is true on that 4th May, which I remember it

    12 very well, it was a Monday, on that day the shelling of

    13 Konjic started.

    14 Q. As the manager of the funeral company you know that on

    15 that same day the town cemetery was shelled?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Mr. Zebic.

    18 Your Honours, as the witness has recognised the

    19 video, I would tender them as Defence exhibits and

    20 I would -- so I tender them. Has this exhibit been

    21 accepted?

    22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

    23 MS. RESIDOVIC: In that case I would like to know the

    24 number.

    25 THE REGISTRAR: The video will be D70/1.

  42. 1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much.

    2 Mr. Zebic, could you confirm to this Trial Chamber

    3 that the shelling of Konjic after the 4th May continued

    4 with great intensity every day?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Could you confirm that as a result of that shelling the

    7 town has been greatly destroyed?

    8 A. It was one of the towns of Bosnia Herzegovina which was

    9 mostly destroyed, especially the old part of Konjic.

    10 Q. Mr. Zebic, can you confirm that already in May there was

    11 a great number of wounded civilians and also dead

    12 civilians?

    13 A. Yes, because, of course, I was wounded myself at that

    14 time.

    15 Q. Mr. Zebic, if I tell you that according to the data of

    16 the hospital of Konjic, between 4th May to 26th May

    17 there were 27 civilians that came as casualties to the

    18 hospital, and also six civilians that had been killed;

    19 five wounded members of the TO, plus one member of the

    20 TO who had been killed; can you say that this data of

    21 the hospital of Konjic are correct?

    22 A. I have to accept the correctness of these data, because

    23 it is an official institution which gave them, and that

    24 is the hospital, the hospital which took care of the

    25 wounded people, and also of the dead, because the dead

  43. 1 people to start with were brought to the internal

    2 mortuary of the hospital, or else they were wounded so

    3 badly that they died in this mortuary of the hospital.

    4 Q. Nevertheless Mr. Zebic, you lived, at that time, in

    5 Konjic, and also had the job that you had. You could

    6 certainly confirm that certain persons that were killed,

    7 specially in the Serbian areas, were never brought to

    8 the hospital but were straight away buried by their

    9 family?

    10 A. Yes. On the whole territory of the municipality there

    11 were such cases, especially later on during the conflict

    12 between the BiH army and HVO.

    13 Q. Can you also agree with me, Mr. Zebic, when I say that a

    14 number of lighter casualties never asked any help from

    15 the hospital?

    16 A. I cannot confirm that, but probably there were such

    17 cases. Yes, because when I was wounded there were ten

    18 of us that were wounded and two people were killed.

    19 I think two or three people never went to see a doctor

    20 at the hospital. These were just scratches, from parts

    21 of shelling and so on. There are probably such cases.

    22 Q. So on the basis of your personal experience that you

    23 have just given in front of this Trial Chamber you can

    24 confirm that in the period of the 1st -- that is 4th

    25 May, up to 26th May, the number of dead and wounded

  44. 1 could have been even larger than the one given by the --

    2 stated by the data of the hospital of Konjic?

    3 A. The municipality of Konjic is the fourth, by territory,

    4 the fourth largest in Bosnia Herzegovina. At that time

    5 it was very difficult to have relevant data for the

    6 whole territory of the municipality. So, probably it can

    7 be confirmed as a fact to be put in the record.

    8 Q. Mr. Zebic, you have already said that as a result of the

    9 shelling the whole town was greatly destroyed, both the

    10 houses and the industrial facilities, is that correct?

    11 A. It is.

    12 Q. If you can, Mr. Zebic, could you, please, assess whether

    13 what I know -- the facts that I have about the shelling

    14 are correct or not; that is, the facts that I was given

    15 by various people in Konjic. It was said that during

    16 1992, on the town of Konjic, on average there were 60

    17 shells that fell on the town every day, that there were

    18 days where several hundred shells were fired on the

    19 town, and there was one time they remember in 1992 when

    20 600 shells were fired on the town. Can you confirm

    21 that?

    22 A. As I was the manager of a civilian company as simple

    23 inhabitant of Konjic, I can confirm the first part of

    24 what you have mentioned because when we were in cellars

    25 we were sometimes also counting the shells and trying to

  45. 1 conclude when the shelling would stop, because there

    2 were indications saying if you could hear two shells

    3 being fired then there would probably be a third one.

    4 So that is something that I can confirm. And when it

    5 comes to these 600 shells that is something I heard

    6 recently at a meeting in Konjic. There was a round

    7 table that was held and there was a discussion about the

    8 aggression and so on and all the parties that

    9 participated in the election campaign discussed that.

    10 I only learned about that fact recently; but what is

    11 sure is that such days that happened.

    12 Q. Nevertheless, the results of the shellings were evident?

    13 A. As I have said, Konjic was among the towns that was

    14 destroyed the most. I think that Konjic is among the

    15 five, six or ten most destroyed towns in Bosnia

    16 Herzegovina.

    17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Zebic, I would like to show you once

    18 again some video clips, made by the Konjic television,

    19 which show certain events. So I would like you to watch

    20 those videos very carefully, note on a piece of paper

    21 whether you can recognise any of it, and then I would

    22 like to ask you some other questions.

    23 Could you please now show the video film number 3?

    24 (Video played)

    25 Okay. You can show also this part of the video as

  46. 1 well.

    2 (Video played)

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, have you any particular

    4 thing in mind?

    5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, it was that after the video

    6 I could ask a few questions to the witness. As the

    7 video film has just ended and it might be time for lunch

    8 break then the questions I wish to ask the witness

    9 connected to this video may be asked after the break, if

    10 you agree with that.

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. We will have a break for lunch

    12 and you can continue your cross-examination at 2.30.

    13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honour.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: There is a matter I was going to raise your

    15 Honour, but I can do that immediately after the lunch

    16 break.

    17 (1.00 pm)

    18 (Luncheon adjournment)








  47. 1 (2.00 pm)

    2 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, just before this witness is

    3 brought in, I have a copy of a memorandum which I hand

    4 to your Honours. In fact I have two copies; one is a

    5 reproduction of the first original and one is a copy of

    6 the original. There is a copy there for your Honours,

    7 and one for the Defence.

    8 This is handed to your Honour to counter the

    9 allegation by Mr. Ackerman that I was dishonest and

    10 misled the Chamber in relation to this witness.

    11 I tender it for that purpose.

    12 JUDGE JAN: But you act on instructions, it was not directed

    13 to you personally.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: That is what I would have thought, your Honour,

    15 but it was not the way in which I interpreted what he

    16 said; but I certainly do act on instructions.

    17 JUDGE JAN: We attach no blame to you at all. In fact you

    18 can make a ...

    19 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases.

    20 MR. MORAN: Would it be possible for us to see a copy, or

    21 each one of us see a copy of that?

    22 MR. NIEMANN: I made a copy of that for the Defence.

    23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may continue you. Kindly

    24 remind him he is on his oath and then you continue with

    25 the cross-examination.

  48. 1 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you are still under

    2 oath?

    3 A. Very well. I understand that.

    4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Zebic, immediately prior to the break,

    5 we saw a video. Do you remember what we saw before the

    6 lunch break?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Can you, please, tell me whether you recognised the town

    9 on that video, and if you did tell us which?

    10 A. I recognised Konjic.

    11 Q. On the video clip you noticed the dates, the 6th and 9th

    12 May. So is it correct to say that these are video tapes

    13 from May 1992?

    14 A. I saw the date on the screen, so I assume that that is

    15 the date and the town of Konjic.

    16 Q. From your personal experience, you know that in the

    17 month of May the town of Konjic was shelled every day?

    18 A. Yes. Yes.

    19 Q. Will you please tell me, Mr. Zebic, in some greater

    20 detail, if you can recall, which parts of the town did

    21 you notice in the clipping that we saw, and also did you

    22 notice any housing, apartment blocks or any other

    23 buildings in the town of Konjic?

    24 A. The video showed almost all the district of Konjic, but

    25 I recognised most the main street, Marshall Tito Street.

  49. 1 Q. Since you saw almost all the districts of the town of

    2 Konjic, is it true that in May, 1992, the town of Konjic

    3 was shelled all over, that is all its districts, and all

    4 it quarters?

    5 A. Unfortunately, I cannot give you a complete answer to

    6 that question, because there were parts of the town,

    7 such as the Boracko Jezero Street, known as the Luka,

    8 which is right next to the railway station, and the

    9 Herzegovina Brigada Street, known as Kolonija, and at

    10 the beginning of 1992 those areas were not shelled in

    11 May and June. I can assert this for Luka, because that

    12 is where I live.

    13 Q. But all the parts of the town shown in this video were

    14 shelled?

    15 A. With the exception of these two blocks, and the suburbs,

    16 particularly near Glavaticevo and Lake Borci.

    17 Q. To be even more precise, those two areas that you have

    18 mentioned were not shown on this video clip that we saw?

    19 A. Yes, they were not shown, close up, but if you show the

    20 new bridge then you see the area known as Luka and part

    21 of the Herzegovina Brigada Street; and it is true that

    22 there were no close-ups of these two areas.

    23 MS. RESIDOVIC: As the witness has personally recognised

    24 the contents of the video, I would like to ask the

    25 Registrar to tell us the number of the exhibit.

  50. 1 THE REGISTRAR: It is the same number as the previous one,

    2 70. This time it will be B, 70B.

    3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. I should like to tender this

    4 exhibit as an exhibit of the Defence. Is it admitted,

    5 your Honours?

    6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may, for what you think it should

    7 do.

    8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

    9 Mr. Zebic, your enterprise, like the majority of

    10 enterprises in Konjic, was working under very difficult

    11 conditions in those days?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. The building where your company was housed was also

    14 shelled?

    15 A. That is correct.

    16 Q. That was the reason due to which you had to move to

    17 another part of the building, that is the basement, as

    18 you told the Prosecutor, is that correct?

    19 A. It is.

    20 Q. In the second half of 1992, your fixed assets were also

    21 seriously damaged, were they not?

    22 A. Yes, they were.

    23 Q. In fact all your vehicles for the transportation of

    24 bodies were destroyed?

    25 A. By the end of 1993 they were all destroyed. When the

  51. 1 war broke out between the HVO and the army of Bosnia

    2 Herzegovina our garage was immediately next to the

    3 front-line with the HVO, so that everything that was in

    4 the garage was torched with snipers or incendiary

    5 bullets. At the end of 1992, two hearses were

    6 destroyed. I already mentioned one. This was at the

    7 end of 1992. The other one was destroyed at the

    8 beginning of 1993. These are the exact data, based on

    9 our records. I am not talking about other vehicles, in

    10 other departments, which were also destroyed.

    11 Q. Is it true, Mr. Zebic, that your workers often buried

    12 people, exposing their own lives to danger, at the risk

    13 of their own lives?

    14 A. Yes. Yes, it was very difficult. Sometimes we carried

    15 out the burial at night, especially when the conflict

    16 with the HVO broke out.

    17 Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Zebic, since the period of interest

    18 to this Tribunal is the period from May to the end of

    19 1992, not to enter into any other details that occurred

    20 later on, except if that is essential and linked to the

    21 events of 1992?

    22 A. I accept the proposal. I was not aware of this fact.

    23 Q. Thank you. In answer to a question of the Prosecution,

    24 you said that the municipal authorities, to be more

    25 precise the War Presidency of Konjic municipality,

  52. 1 decided to set up a commission for burials, is that

    2 true?

    3 A. It is.

    4 Q. Actually, can you tell the court that in view of the

    5 shelling and the casualties that they provoked, there

    6 were cases of dead bodies or the wounded being left

    7 lying in the streets, or in apartments, so that efforts

    8 were made to give a dignified burial to all the dead, is

    9 that correct?

    10 A. It is.

    11 Q. I should now like to ask your Honours, in view of the

    12 activities of this witness and his testimony, if we may

    13 show another video clip. This will be the last that

    14 I intend to show to this witness and I ask the technical

    15 service to show us clip number 5.

    16 (Video played)

    17 Mr. Zebic, there is some more, another minute,

    18 maybe.

    19 (Video played)

    20 Thank you. Mr. Zebic, after having seen these

    21 pictures, can you tell me whether you recognise the town

    22 that is being shown?

    23 A. It is Konjic again.

    24 Q. Can you tell me any of the details that you recognise,

    25 which parts of the City?

  53. 1 A. This massacre that occurred, it was in the 15th

    2 September Street. I think that four persons were killed

    3 on that occasion, and our company provided all the

    4 services required. Then I saw Varda, where the Orthodox

    5 church is situated, which was also shelled, as could be

    6 seen. And finally I saw the Catholic church, and a line

    7 of citizens who were probably waiting for food; and in

    8 the premises of the convent of the Catholic church was

    9 where the Caritas Society functioned. It often

    10 distributed food to the citizens of Konjic, regardless

    11 of ethnicity.

    12 Q. You noticed the dates indicated on this video, and you

    13 also saw that it was July. Is it correct that these

    14 events took place in July 1992?

    15 A. After May happened, yes, in June, at the beginning of

    16 June, as far as my memory serves me, this case occurred

    17 then. I know, I recognise several people, somebody

    18 Mahmutovic, who that day came to visit his wife in

    19 Konjic, he got killed. Then Ljubovic, and the other

    20 two; unfortunately I cannot recall their names.

    21 Q. Thank you. Can you also confirm that May -- like May,

    22 June, as well as the other months, were months of horror

    23 for the citizens of Konjic, that is a period of daily

    24 shelling?

    25 A. The intensity was the same from the 4th May onwards,

  54. 1 except for these two districts that I mentioned, that is

    2 Luka and the 10th Herzegovina Brigade. The other areas

    3 were constantly exposed to shelling. The experts who

    4 are more knowledgeable about shelling, and I am not one

    5 of them, said that these were smaller calibre shells,

    6 and that they -- the -- they came from the village of

    7 Bijela, using mortars from 60, 80 and 120 millimetres,

    8 and that in particular these 60 and 80 calibre shells

    9 could not reach these two settlements.

    10 Q. Thank you. Under these conditions, all the bodies of

    11 the municipality were operating. That is they were all

    12 working under very difficult conditions, is that

    13 correct?

    14 A. It is.

    15 Q. Actually people worked day and night to ensure the

    16 minimum requirements for people to be able to continue

    17 living?

    18 A. Correct.

    19 Q. To be able to bury the people who were killed in this

    20 way in the streets, you said that a commission for

    21 burial was set up?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Is it true that the commission was composed of Jasna

    24 Dzumhur, Smajo Previjak, Zoran Kajlovic and Ivica

    25 Vidackovic?

  55. 1 A. Yes. Yes, I saw, on one occasion, the decision of the

    2 War Presidency at Jasna Dzumhur's.

    3 Q. Mr. Zebic, I have here a rather poor copy of that

    4 decision; but since you have already had occasion to see

    5 it, would you please take a look at it, and tell me

    6 whether this is the decision you are referring to. The

    7 decision was disclosed to the Prosecution in January, by

    8 the Defence, and I have here a translation for your

    9 Honours, and for the Prosecution.

    10 This copy is very poor, and especially the heading

    11 is not very legible. We gave a better copy to the

    12 Prosecution and I will try to give a better copy for the

    13 Trial Chamber as well, in case this exhibit will be

    14 taken. Could you please have a better look at it?

    15 Could you, according to the contents of this

    16 document, recognise this is the document that you saw

    17 yourself, and that this is the commission you spoke

    18 about, answered by the Prosecutor, upon answer of the

    19 Prosecutor?

    20 A. First of all, this commission Jasna Dzumhur, Smajo

    21 Previjak and Kajlovic. I did not know the third person

    22 was Kajlovic. I also did not know Ivica Vidackovic was

    23 on that commission. He used to be the chief accountant

    24 in my company. But I know the signature of Mr. Hadzi

    25 Huseinovic, who used to be at that time the Chairman of

  56. 1 the War Presidency. I suppose that this is real --

    2 authentic decision.

    3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Your Honours, since the witness

    4 had previously spoken during examination-in-chief about

    5 this decision and that he recognised on this decision

    6 the signature of the Chairman of the War Presidency, and

    7 he also saw the decision in 1992, I think all the

    8 conditions are met for this decision to be admitted as a

    9 Defence exhibit.

    10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any comments?

    11 MR. NIEMANN: No.

    12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can admit it. What is the

    13 number?

    14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Can you please tell me, what is

    15 the number?

    16 THE REGISTRAR: It is D71/1. The English text is 71/1.

    17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

    18 Could we go back to the video, Mr. Zebic, now? You

    19 said that you could recognise some citizens that were

    20 waiting in line in front of the Caritas, is that

    21 correct?

    22 A. Yes, that is correct.

    23 Q. Mr. Zebic, could you confirm that already in April basic

    24 food supplies started to lack?

    25 A. Yes, some strategic supplies were missing, especially

  57. 1 before the war those that we imported and exported from

    2 and to Serbia.

    3 Q. Mr. Zebic, can you confirm that the problem of food

    4 supplies has become a very important issue?

    5 A. Yes. That is correct.

    6 Q. Could you confirm that at that time, on several

    7 occasions, the bakery was also shelled, the town bakery,

    8 which supplied even the open kitchens and the army, so

    9 the citizens lacked even bread?

    10 A. Yes, the bakery has been hit and shelled on several

    11 occasions. In 1995 and 1996 the bakery was rebuilt.

    12 When the Prosecutor asked me I told him that I was

    13 wounded in front of the entrance to the bakery.

    14 Q. Mr. Zebic, could you confirm that already in May, from

    15 the surrounding villages, the villages in the immediate

    16 surroundings, a large number of refugees started to

    17 arrive to Konjic; these were Croats and Muslims expelled

    18 by the Serbian forces from these areas?

    19 A. Yes, those were the villages along the River Nereiva in

    20 the direction of Nereiva, as well as from Borci and Lake

    21 Borci, from that part of the population that was

    22 expelled from those areas.

    23 Q. Mr. Zebic, could you confirm that once the road, M17, was

    24 free for circulation again hundreds of thousands of

    25 refugees started to come into town from eastern

  58. 1 Herzegovina and eastern Bosnia?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Is it correct that in the town it was impossible to have

    4 food supplies and lodgings for all those people?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Is it correct that people were standing in queues in

    7 front of humanitarian societies like Merhamet and

    8 Caritas with their lives being in danger in that place,

    9 just in order to be able to have something to eat?

    10 A. Yes. That was the only way in which the inhabitants

    11 could get some supplies, that is correct.

    12 Q. There was nothing in the shops and nothing could be

    13 bought, is that correct?

    14 A. Yes. That is correct.

    15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, since the witness recognised

    16 the town of Konjic and all it parts, the people who are

    17 waiting in line in front of Caritas, and answered all

    18 these questions, I tender this video clip to be admitted

    19 as Defence exhibit, admitted into evidence. Has it been

    20 admitted into evidence? Under what number.

    21 THE REGISTRAR: This video clip is D70C/1.

    22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Zebic, could you tell this court whether

    23 it is correct to say that the first help provided by the

    24 UNHCR arrived in the first part of August to Konjic?

    25 A. That is an organisation I have not heard of, so I cannot

  59. 1 confirm if that is correct or not.

    2 Q. Mr. Zebic, you have already confirmed to me that once the

    3 road, M17, was free for circulation again, thousands of

    4 refugees came into the town of Konjic. Can you tell me

    5 now whether those were the people who were running away

    6 from awful atrocities and crimes done against these

    7 people in eastern Bosnia and eastern Herzegovina?

    8 A. Yes. Yes, I know that they were refugees from Foca,

    9 Kalinovik and Trnovo and also other villages probably in

    10 eastern Bosnia and near Drina.

    11 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Zebic, that those from the Jelece and

    12 from Gacko, that they tell about the atrocities they had

    13 to go through and about the massacres in those regions?

    14 A. Yes, they were speaking about those things, but

    15 personally I never had any contact with those refugees,

    16 probably because of the duties I had at that time in

    17 Konjic. Most of my time, 20 hours per day, I spent in

    18 my company. I know from documents and the press about

    19 this.

    20 Q. That is precisely what I wanted to ask you. Were you

    21 able on local radio and television in Konjic to hear

    22 some of those refugees, or learn about what happened in

    23 those areas?

    24 A. Yes, we were able to do so via the local television,

    25 because we would often see the refugees from those areas

  60. 1 speaking on television.

    2 Q. Mr. Zebic, if I asked you now, is the daily situation,

    3 this everyday shelling, death, hunger, arrival of

    4 refugees, and all their stories, has all that caused

    5 very serious anti-Serb feelings with a large part of the

    6 population?

    7 A. It is a very difficult question, a question to which

    8 politicians should answer. I know how I felt towards

    9 people of all religions, but there were also people who

    10 had such comments and one could hear such things in

    11 basements where we were at those -- in that period where

    12 a particular crime was identified with a people, the

    13 Serbian people. There were such cases.

    14 Q. And those cases that you mention, they were reactions,

    15 very harsh reactions towards those people who wanted to

    16 help the Serb friends, the Serb neighbours who were also

    17 suffering, just as they were suffering?

    18 A. It is correct.

    19 Q. Mr. Zebic, before the war, are you -- you held some very

    20 important offices in the municipality. You were a -- on

    21 several boards and had important duties in various

    22 companies?

    23 A. That is correct.

    24 Q. Mr. Zebic, you can certainly say that before the war

    25 Mr. Zejnil Delalic never held any office in the Konjic

  61. 1 municipality?

    2 A. Up until the war, yes.

    3 Q. Mr. Zebic, you probably knew Mr. Zejnil Delalic and you

    4 knew that he was a well known inhabitant who spent many

    5 years working abroad, is that correct?

    6 A. Yes, it is.

    7 Q. You knew he had a disco club in Konjic?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. You heard that when the war broke out he was in Konjic?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. You heard that he was helping the inhabitants and that

    12 he took part in finding supplies that were missing in

    13 the town and for those inhabitants, is that correct?

    14 A. It is correct.

    15 Q. Mr. Zebic, you were also aware that Zejnil Delalic was --

    16 had a special task; that was to rebuild the rail road

    17 and establishing the railway lines from Konjic to

    18 Pazaric?

    19 A. I can only answer partly to that question because I did

    20 not belong to any political military structures. I had

    21 my own duties. About the concrete tasks of Mr. Zejnil

    22 Delalic, it probably is correct, but I knew nothing of

    23 it because the people I knew were neither politicians --

    24 were not politicians, so I performed my duties that were

    25 given to me by the War Presidency.

  62. 1 Q. So, Mr. Zebic, you do not personally know details which

    2 were -- what were the tasks and duties performed by

    3 Mr. Zejnil Delalic while he stayed in Konjic?

    4 A. That is correct.

    5 Q. I would nevertheless like to ask you whether by chance

    6 whether in August or September, as an inhabitant of

    7 Konjic, did you hear that Mr. Zejnil Delalic went to be

    8 some kind of commander at the Igman Mountain?

    9 A. Yes, I heard about that some time in August, or the end

    10 of August. I do not remember the exact date because

    11 every inhabitant in Konjic was talking about this.

    12 Q. Mr. Zebic, as an inhabitant of the town of Konjic, you

    13 know that the Celebici barracks used to be the barracks

    14 of the former JNA and that Celebici is 8 to 10

    15 kilometres to the south of Konjic, the area of Karlic,

    16 is that correct?

    17 A. Yes, that is correct.

    18 Q. You probably learned that the authorities of the

    19 municipality had taken over those barracks from the

    20 commander of the JNA and that that was the reason for

    21 the threats of General Kukanjac that he would bomb

    22 Konjic?

    23 A. I know that the army of Bosnia Herzegovina, which at

    24 that time, still to be at that time the TO, that they

    25 took over the barracks. Whether Kukanjac threatened

  63. 1 because of those barracks, I do not know. I am not

    2 aware of that. Whether it happened for these things or

    3 because of those barracks I do not know. But, yes, the

    4 threats, I knew of the threats because I said so this

    5 morning and I also heard it on the radio of Bosnia

    6 Herzegovina and also on our local television.

    7 Q. You did not take part in any of the war operations or

    8 the military operations; you performed your work

    9 assignment in your company, Standard, is that correct?

    10 A. Yes, it is.

    11 Q. You know nevertheless that in the town of Konjic was

    12 also the Croatian Defence Council, or the HVO was an

    13 important military structure, are you aware of that?

    14 A. Yes, I am.

    15 Q. Mr. Zebic, you probably know that Ivica Azinovic was, so

    16 to speak, the leading personality of HVO and that Dinko

    17 Zebic was the commander of the military branch of the

    18 HVO?

    19 A. I did not know that the Azinovic was the leading person

    20 and that Dinko Zebic, who has the same surname, and he

    21 was Croat. I knew he was a commander of a brigade, but

    22 I do not know the name of that brigade.

    23 Q. Can you confirm that in the early days of the war the

    24 HVO in Konjic was much better organised and much better

    25 armed?

  64. 1 A. I cannot really -- I really cannot confirm that. I do

    2 not know, because I am not a military expert.

    3 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me whether you know

    4 that at the beginning some Muslims were members of the

    5 HVO in Konjic?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Mr. Zebic, do you know that the HVO refused to take part

    8 alongside the TO members -- members of the TO, to take

    9 part in the fighting for the liberation of Borci?

    10 A. I have not heard from any officials about that, either

    11 political or military, but there was talk about it, that

    12 the HVO did not want to take part in the fighting.

    13 Probably it came from the politicians or the military

    14 experts.

    15 Q. Were there also rumours that the HVO did not want to

    16 take part in breaking the blockade around Sarajevo?

    17 A. This is the first time I heard about it. I never heard

    18 of such, of this information.

    19 Q. Thank you. Mr. Zebic. Could you tell us whether it is

    20 correct that in Konjic, before the war, there was only a

    21 small prison, next to the court, for no more than 10

    22 people, 10 inmates?

    23 A. That is correct.

    24 Q. Do you know that because of the horror of the war in the

    25 summer of 1992 neither the court nor the Prosecution

  65. 1 services were operational in Konjic?

    2 A. During the fighting neither the court nor the

    3 Prosecution services were operational, but I do not know

    4 whether it is true for the period you are speaking of.

    5 Q. Mr. Zebic, the court in Konjic before the war was a court

    6 where only small offences were tried?

    7 A. Yes, it was called the "Basic Court".

    8 Q. For all serious offences, or crimes that were made in

    9 the area of Konjic, it was the higher District Court in

    10 Mostar that was in charge, or else the military court in

    11 Mostar that was competent?

    12 A. That is correct.

    13 Q. Is it true, Mr. Zebic, that the town of Konjic was

    14 throughout that period cut off from both Mostar and

    15 Sarajevo?

    16 A. That is correct.

    17 Q. You explained, Mr. Zebic, this morning, in front of this

    18 Trial Chamber, that you -- in which way you gave all the

    19 data in the certificates shown to you by the Prosecutor,

    20 and you also explained that to the investigator of this

    21 Tribunal when he first contacted you and took a

    22 statement from you, is that correct?

    23 A. Yes, that is correct.

    24 Q. So your company, in view of what you have said to the

    25 court, was left without any records from 1992?

  66. 1 A. I said that in the town mortuary there are records and

    2 all the people buried in the cemetery of Musala,

    3 regardless of their religion, were entered into these

    4 records, regardless of whether the fact they died of

    5 natural causes or they were victims of war. For whoever

    6 we heard, we entered the name into evidence. I also

    7 explained how the documents disappeared. I mean, the

    8 evidence did not disappear, but we destroyed it, because

    9 we simply took all the facts and put them into the

    10 certificate, and the death certificate is in the records

    11 of our company.

    12 Q. Yes. But as you have stated, part of the data was taken

    13 from the travel orders given to the drivers and entered

    14 them into the certificate and these travel orders were

    15 partly burned, is that correct?

    16 A. Yes, that is correct.

    17 Q. Mr. Zebic, is that the reason why in that certificate you

    18 did not write down that all the data were made because

    19 of -- after a full view into the records of the company?

    20 A. Yes, that is the reason.

    21 Q. Is that true, Mr. Zebic, that you have never personally

    22 taken care of a body of any person who died?

    23 A. Yes, that is correct, I never took care of the body or

    24 saw the body.

    25 Q. You also said that you did not carry out any autopsies.

  67. 1 Does that mean that your company did not have the

    2 competency or the conditions to carry out autopsies?

    3 A. That is correct. I said that in the town mortuary we

    4 have no possibility to carry out autopsies. We never

    5 carried them out either before or during the war.

    6 Q. Except for the family of the late Simo Jovanovic, you

    7 never had a contact with any of the families of the

    8 other persons who -- dead persons?

    9 A. Yes, that is correct, because those families had left

    10 Konjic.

    11 Q. Mr. Zebic, you do not personally know from which exact

    12 location the dead bodies were taken?

    13 A. The dead bodies of the people who are mentioned in the

    14 certificate? That is true. I never went to the exact

    15 location. I was never in Celebici or did not see any of

    16 the massacres, because I could not see -- did not see

    17 personally any of the bodies, and I cannot stand the

    18 sight of the dead man.

    19 Q. When you say "Celebici" to somebody from Konjic it

    20 basically means the village of Celebici that springs

    21 into their mind?

    22 A. Yes, it is the village next door, Orahovica, and down to

    23 the south of the tunnel. That is the area. This is, in

    24 fact, a village which is quite scattered.

    25 Q. Thank you. For the inhabitants of Konjic, if one wanted

  68. 1 to specify that it was the barracks of Celebici it would

    2 have been indispensable to say it is the barracks of

    3 Celebici and the village of Celebici?

    4 A. Yes, the other inhabitants would accept that was the

    5 barracks they were talking about; and I would do that

    6 myself.

    7 Q. In case one would only mention Celebici everybody would

    8 think of the village?

    9 A. Yes. That is true.

    10 Q. Mr. Zebic, you have no idea whether the persons mentioned

    11 in this certificate are ordinary citizens or prisoners?

    12 A. Correct.

    13 Q. You never discussed that with your workers who actually

    14 transported the bodies?

    15 A. Correct.

    16 Q. You were never informed of the reasons of death?

    17 A. Nobody never informed me, nor did we record that before

    18 the war, and so we did not during the war. I said that

    19 the municipal burial commission, which was in charge of

    20 all the records, did this, and that is why we did not.

    21 Q. I have a few more questions, Mr. Zebic, on a different

    22 subject. Since you said that you did not participate in

    23 any combat operations, I am asking you whether you were

    24 aware of the battles for the liberation of Jablinica?

    25 A. Yes.

  69. 1 Q. At the time you must have known that there were two or

    2 three days of heavy fighting in that area?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Like the other citizens of Konjic, you probably knew

    5 that a certain number of persons had been arrested and

    6 detained?

    7 A. Yes. Yes.

    8 Q. You probably, on the basis of your previous positions,

    9 and your personal knowledge, knew that the Ministry of

    10 the Interior in the town of Konjic, or the police in

    11 fact, were responsible for the arrest and detention of

    12 persons suspected of having committed criminal offences?

    13 A. Probably so, but I am not very familiar with the

    14 structure nor the competencies of those bodies.

    15 Q. However, Mr. Zebic, is it true that in the course of 1992

    16 you never heard, in Konjic, that prisoners had been

    17 killed or tortured?

    18 A. I did not hear that.

    19 Q. Actually you, like many other citizens of Konjic, could

    20 see families of prisoners going by train to visit them

    21 and take food for them; could you see that?

    22 A. At the beginning of 1992 I could not see that, because

    23 I was focusing on my company and its activities. But

    24 from the stories told by citizens, and especially

    25 persons who were accompanying the trains, that is people

  70. 1 in the civil defence, they told me this, that almost

    2 every Saturday and Sunday food was being taken by

    3 families to Celebici.

    4 Q. You, yourself, never visited the Celebici barracks or

    5 the Celebici prison?

    6 A. Never, never.

    7 Q. You have no personal knowledge about that?

    8 A. None.

    9 Q. You have heard that Mr. Delalic left Konjic at the end of

    10 November?

    11 A. Yes, that was the story.

    12 Q. At the time the story was he escaped on a Chetnik

    13 helicopter, that he was a member of the

    14 counter-intelligence, KOS?

    15 A. Yes. Yes.

    16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Mr. Zebic. I have no further

    17 questions.

    18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Olujic, you are the next to

    19 cross-examine.

    20 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, I have no questions for this

    21 witness. Regarding the question, the circumstances, the

    22 general circumstances, my colleague has exhausted the

    23 questions in that area, so that we have no further

    24 specific questions for this witness.

    25 Cross-examination by MR. MORAN

  71. 1 MR. MORAN: May it please the court.


    3 MR. MORAN: Thank you, your Honour.

    4 Hi, Mr. Zebic. My name is Tom Moran and

    5 I represent a man called Hazim Delic who is one of the

    6 defendants here. I want to ask you a very few

    7 questions. I think we can get this done fairly

    8 quickly. Your company was in charge, I understand, of

    9 the water supply in the entire Konjic municipality, is

    10 that right?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. During the summer of 1992, what was the supply of

    13 drinkable water like, was there a lot of it, plenty of

    14 it, was it short? Were there problems with the water

    15 distribution system? Can you tell us a little bit about

    16 that? Let us cover the whole municipality.

    17 A. For the whole municipality, I cannot tell you, because

    18 there are village water supply systems that do not

    19 belong, that are not part of the municipal water supply

    20 system. There is only the water supply system in

    21 Celebici, Bijela and Butrovic Polje and the Borci Lake

    22 and the city itself.

    23 Q. You would not know anything about the water supply in

    24 the village of Celebici, would you, that is outside your

    25 competence, is that what you are saying?

  72. 1 A. No. No. On the whole, throughout the period of war

    2 operations, the town of Konjic had more or less regular

    3 water supply, with the exception of many damages caused

    4 by the shelling, which, thanks to a donation from the

    5 British charitable organisation order, we managed to

    6 repair overnight, sometimes even during the day. The

    7 water supply system in the Borci Lake, and in the

    8 village of Bijela which I forgot to mention, they were

    9 occupied by the Chetniks. As far as I know, the water

    10 supply in Celebici functioned the -- as it did because

    11 there was a shortage of water so that the supply was --

    12 water was in short supply. But there was damage done

    13 there too, but on the whole the water supply was quite

    14 regular in Konjic, in Celebici and in Butrovic Polje.

    15 Q. I know you testified a moment ago that you have never

    16 visited the Celebici camp, but have you driven past it?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Sir, in front of you, I do not know if you have seen it,

    19 there is a model of the camp. If you want to take a

    20 look at it. The question I want to ask you is just

    21 basically this: you can see a fence on the side of the

    22 model near the judges. Can you tell the judges what is

    23 on the other side of that fence? Is there a road or are

    24 there houses or is it just a forest; what is out there?

    25 A. Let me make sure I understand you are talking about the

  73. 1 fence facing the west, the Jablanica Lake or are you

    2 asking inside the fence, inside the compound? I did not

    3 quite understand your question.

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly go direct to what you -- I do

    5 not think it will be leading. Just ask him what you

    6 want.

    7 MR. MORAN: Outside the camp to the west what is there?

    8 There are houses there, are there not?

    9 A. Yes. Yes. There are houses then Lake Jablanica and

    10 then across the way the villages, and the main highway

    11 that passes through the middle of Celebici.

    12 Q. And people on the main highway and people in those

    13 houses can see into the camp?

    14 A. Yes, they can see the camp but I doubt they can see what

    15 is happening inside.

    16 Q. They can see there are people around and things like

    17 that, can they not?

    18 A. Yes, that much, yes.

    19 Q. Sure. One other question, and I think that I will be

    20 done. The burials that your company handled, when it

    21 involved people of Serbian descent your company policy

    22 was to treat those people with the same respect as you

    23 would treat people regardless of ethnicity, was it not?

    24 A. Yes. Yes.

    25 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, your Honour. I pass the

  74. 1 witness.

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any other

    3 cross-examination?

    4 Cross-examination by MS. McMURREY

    5 MS. McMURREY: I am sorry, your Honours, we had a little

    6 misunderstanding. I have a few questions.

    7 Good afternoon, Mr. Zebic.

    8 A. Good afternoon.

    9 Q. There were some questions asked of you earlier when you

    10 first came into the courtroom. I would like to continue

    11 with a few of those questions. There had been some

    12 representations in documents by the Prosecution that are

    13 part of the record of this case. I just wanted to ask

    14 you: if somebody indicated that for personal or

    15 professional reasons you were not willing to testify at

    16 the seat of the International Criminal Tribunal in The

    17 Hague, would that be true or not true?

    18 A. I did not understand the question. Could you ask it --

    19 make it brief, please?

    20 Q. If someone told this court that you were not willing to

    21 testify here in The Hague, would that be true or not

    22 true?

    23 A. It would not be true.

    24 Q. Thank you very much. If they stated that you were not

    25 willing to testify except by video link testimony --

  75. 1 JUDGE JAN: Ms. McMurrey, why are you pursuing that line

    2 now? I thought we had enough evidence on that already.

    3 MS. McMURREY: I am coming, I believe, to the aid of my

    4 lead counsel, Mr. Ackerman, here.

    5 JUDGE JAN: This is no place to get clarifications of this

    6 nature in the cross-examination of the witness.

    7 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, if I just might be heard.

    8 JUDGE JAN: Let us be more relevant to the controversy

    9 before us, instead of getting involved in those little

    10 "defts" or whatever you might call them.

    11 MS. McMURREY: I believe what has happened, your Honour, by

    12 Mr. Niemann saying this witness was not willing to come

    13 to testify, is that he has attacked the credibility of

    14 this witness. He is saying that by him not being

    15 willing to come to testify that this witness'

    16 credibility is at issue. Therefore, if it is at issue

    17 it is our duty to prove one way or the other whether he

    18 is telling the truth or not telling the truth.

    19 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I have never heard anything of

    20 this sort in my life. It is absurd to suggest that

    21 because a witness does not want to testify that that

    22 somehow or other affects the credibility of the

    23 testimony that the witness is going to give. That is

    24 absolutely absurd. I object strongly to this line of

    25 cross-examination.

  76. 1 MS. McMURREY: I note Mr. Niemann has objected over and

    2 again. He is the one who has put this witness'

    3 credibility at issue. He is the one who has really

    4 impeached his own witness by placing his credibility at

    5 issue.

    6 MR. NIEMANN: How could it possibly, your Honour?

    7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us stop this type of argument. Do

    8 not worry about that.

    9 JUDGE JAN: He impeached the credibility of his own

    10 witness?

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Frankly, this is the type of practice

    12 which I deprecate very much. If this is the style you

    13 are carrying on --

    14 JUDGE JAN: He is like any other witness produced by the

    15 Prosecution.

    16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you please carry on the

    17 cross-examination in the most decent way? Try to do

    18 that.

    19 MS. McMURREY: My only questions of this witness had to do

    20 with this line of questioning, so since I am not allowed

    21 to ask any further questions on this.

    22 JUDGE JAN: You are allowed to ask any question, but I was

    23 suggesting that let this -- it does not really help to

    24 pursue a particular controversy which has no bearing at

    25 all on the facts of this case. You are not being

  77. 1 stopped at all. You can ask any other question.

    2 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I only had questions that were

    3 to do with the credibility that the Prosecution had

    4 placed at issue. Since I cannot go into the documents

    5 that the Prosecution has filed with regard to this

    6 witness, I will pass the witness at this time. Thank

    7 you.

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you any re-examination?

    9 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

    10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, at this point may I ask, just for

    11 the purposes of the record, that the memorandum that

    12 Mr. Niemann presented to the court as we began the

    13 afternoon session be made a part of the record and

    14 marked as an exhibit and admitted as an exhibit in the

    15 court.

    16 JUDGE JAN: How is it relevant?

    17 MR. ACKERMAN: Let me explain, if I can, how it is relevant.

    18 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Ackerman, why do you want to pursue that?

    19 Let us get on with the case, as it is. You have plenty

    20 of opportunity with us to examine. Why pursue it

    21 further? It is something which does not have any bearing

    22 at all on the facts of this case.

    23 MR. ACKERMAN: I really feel I need to state why I believe it

    24 is relevant. The court may disagree with me.

    25 JUDGE JAN: I am sure you can meet up together with you

  78. 1 friends; and I do not think it will help in pursuing it

    2 inside the court.

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually I do not think it is necessary

    4 to interrupt with it. It has nothing to do with it.

    5 JUDGE JAN: As it is already the prosecution have 185

    6 documents, you have reached number 70 documents.

    7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have nothing else, I think. You

    8 have no re-examination, I gather.

    9 MR. NIEMANN: No.

    10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is the end of the

    11 examination and I think you do not need him any longer.

    12 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

    13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The witness is discharged. He is free

    14 to go.

    15 (The witness withdrew)

    16 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, the Prosecution calls Kemal

    17 Dzajic.

    18 JUDGE JAN: Have you had the opportunity of meeting this new

    19 witness?

    20 MS. McMURREY: Yes, your Honour, I believe we have all had

    21 an opportunity to meet with this witness before he has

    22 testified. Thank you.

    23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, your Honour, we have had that

    24 opportunity. Thank you.

    25 MR. GREAVES: I hate to rise and interrupt my learned

  79. 1 friend. I am sure he will forgive me for a moment. The

    2 memorandum that was provided to us in relation to the

    3 last witness, on the face of it, is a document which

    4 suggests, or could be taken as suggesting, that either

    5 the person writing the memorandum or the witness has not

    6 been truthful about the matter we have just been

    7 discussing. It may be that there are issues of

    8 disclosure that arise in relation to all of the next

    9 four witnesses. If similar memoranda exist it may be my

    10 learned friend might like to think, it is a matter for

    11 him entirely, whether they are matters that ought to be

    12 disclosed as a note of a single nature. I hope he will

    13 regard that as helpful, rather than my being unhelpful.

    14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can bring the witness in.

    15 KEMAL DZAJIC, (sworn)

    16 Examination-in-chief by MR. NIEMANN

    17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. You can sit down.

    18 MR. NIEMANN: Would you please state your full name, sir?

    19 A. Kemal Dzajic.

    20 Q. On 26th June, 1996, by whom were you employed?

    21 A. I was employed in the Unis factory.

    22 Q. And for how long were you employed in the Unis factory?

    23 A. My -- I was employed for the first time in the Unis

    24 factory in 1975.

    25 Q. How long did you stay with that --

  80. 1 A. Until 1994.

    2 Q. Then where did you go in 1994?

    3 A. In 1994, or to be more precise on 15th October,

    4 I transferred to the public utilities company, Standard,

    5 in Konjic.

    6 Q. And for how long did you work with that company?

    7 A. I worked -- I have been working there to the present

    8 day; but I resigned a month ago.

    9 Q. Prior to your resignation, what position did you hold

    10 with the company?

    11 A. I was director of the company.

    12 Q. Might the witness now be shown document number 185,

    13 please?

    14 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Niemann, I just want to find out who issued

    15 this document. It is the signatures. If you were going

    16 to prove this document, it bears his signature. This

    17 one. Why produce the earlier witness?

    18 MR. NIEMANN: The earlier witness compiled the information,

    19 your Honour. It will emerge.

    20 JUDGE JAN: All right.

    21 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Dzajic, the document I have now shown you,

    22 do you recognise that?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Does your signature appear on the document?

    25 A. Yes.

  81. 1 Q. Did you prepare the document yourself, or was it

    2 prepared by somebody else?

    3 A. No. This document was prepared by the director who held

    4 that post before me.

    5 Q. And what was his name?

    6 A. Fadil Zebic.

    7 Q. And why is it that you signed it?

    8 A. Every document coming out of the company has to be

    9 signed by the director.

    10 Q. Yes. I tender the document, your Honours.

    11 JUDGE JAN: It is already part of the record.

    12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is in evidence.

    13 JUDGE JAN: You could have just asked him, "is it a true

    14 document, did you satisfy yourself its content was

    15 correct before you signed it?". That would obviate the

    16 necessity of producing the earlier witness.

    17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, for abundant caution I called

    18 that witness. If it has been tendered, I have no

    19 further questions of this witness.

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination?

    21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, your Honour. We will cross-examine in

    22 the following order: first counsel for Delalic, second

    23 counsel for Mucic, third counsel for Delic and fourth

    24 counsel for Landzo.

    25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, in view of the time perhaps

  82. 1 it would be more advisable for me to begin after the

    2 break.

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. The Trial Chamber will rise

    4 and come back at 4.30.

    5 (4.00 pm)

    6 (Short break)

    7 (4.30 pm)

    8 MR. OLUJIC: Just before we start, if your Honour pleases, my

    9 colleague, Michael Greaves, had to leave the courtroom,

    10 so if you allow me to excuse him, because I will be the

    11 only one to appear as Defence counsel, without

    12 Mr. Greaves today, until the end of today's proceedings.

    13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is barely one hour from now. It is

    14 not a long period.

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, remind the witness he is on his

    16 oath and that he will appreciate it.

    17 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, I remind you that you are still under

    18 oath.

    19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You will now be cross-examined by

    20 Ms. Residovic.

    21 A. Just before Ms. Residovic starts, I think, if I may say

    22 so, that I made a mistake while answering the first

    23 question. The question was where I worked in 1996 and

    24 I said at Unis. In fact, I worked in the public

    25 utilities company, Standard. Will you excuse me for

  83. 1 that, because I was quite confused when I first arrived

    2 here. Could you please enter this correction?

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You might now continue with the

    4 cross-examination.

    5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you your Honour.

    6 Mr. Dzajic, good afternoon, or almost good evening.

    7 A. Good afternoon.

    8 Q. Mr. Dzajic, before I start asking questions, may I just

    9 draw your attention to a technical issue. You and

    10 I speak the same language, and it would be very easy for

    11 us in this cross-examination; I would quickly ask a

    12 question and you would very quickly answer it. The

    13 Trial Chamber and my colleagues in the courtroom do not

    14 speak our language and the interpreters that are in the

    15 booths need to translate whatever we say. That is why

    16 I would like to draw your attention to the headphones

    17 you have on the table in front of you. When I ask a

    18 question you will, on those headphones, hear the

    19 translation of my question into English. Once it has

    20 ended, answer my question. In that case the Trial

    21 Chamber will be able to follow what we are saying. Have

    22 you understood?

    23 A. Yes, I have.

    24 Q. Mr. Dzajic, you know my name is Edina Residovic and I am

    25 Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic. You are, for the

  84. 1 first time, in court, Mr. Dzajic?

    2 A. Yes, that is correct.

    3 Q. But regardless of that fact you should not fear

    4 anything. My colleagues and myself will ask you several

    5 questions, and then you will answer these questions

    6 according to your own knowledge. I will try to ask

    7 questions in a very brief and precise manner. If you do

    8 not understand anything, please say so, so I will repeat

    9 my question. In case you think that you need to clarify

    10 a particular point, you will have the opportunity to do

    11 so, but I would like to ask you to be brief, and

    12 sometimes even answer just by saying yes or no. Have

    13 you understood what I have just said?

    14 A. Yes, I have.

    15 Q. Mr. Dzajic, from the moment when I, as Defence counsel

    16 for Mr. Delalic, asked a particular certificate from you,

    17 you have always been ready to say whatever you knew in

    18 the interest of establishing justice in front of this

    19 court?

    20 A. Yes, that is correct.

    21 Q. And you never refused to come to this Tribunal?

    22 A. No, I have not. I have always been ready to say

    23 whatever I knew and wanted to say, tell the truth,

    24 regardless of what this truth was like.

    25 Q. So if somebody had informed the Prosecutor or this

  85. 1 Tribunal about a different attitude of yours, that is

    2 you refusing to testify, that would not be a correct

    3 statement?

    4 A. Yes. That is correct.

    5 Q. This punishment was very difficult for you and your

    6 child has come back home from school crying?

    7 A. Yes, that is true.

    8 Q. Thank you very much. I will now continue with asking

    9 questions concerning your experience from 1992 and

    10 onwards. The Prosecutor's question; you answered that

    11 in October 1994 you became the manager of the public

    12 utilities company, Standard, in Konjic, is that correct?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. At that time, you started, for the first time, to work

    15 for the company, Standard, in Konjic?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. You confirmed when the Prosecutor asked you, that you

    18 signed the certificate, is that correct?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. You also confirmed, however, that you did that on the

    21 basis of what was told to you by your predecessor

    22 Mr. Zebic, is that correct?

    23 A. Yes, it is.

    24 Q. So you asked to consult Mr. Zebic, because in your

    25 company there are no proper records from 1992, is that

  86. 1 correct?

    2 A. Yes. And the information was compiled on the basis of

    3 the facts and some notes made by the employees of that

    4 company, so the information was compiled in the way it

    5 was by Mr. Zebic.

    6 Q. So Mr. Dzajic, it really means if somebody wanted to

    7 check the correctness of the information, of the

    8 certificate, on the basis of the records that you have

    9 at the company, Standard, that person would be unable to

    10 do so, because for the most parts the records were

    11 destroyed. Is that correct?

    12 A. Yes. It is.

    13 Q. Mr. Dzajic, the funerals of the persons for which you

    14 issued the certificates, those funerals are something

    15 you have no personal knowledge of, is that correct?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. You do not know those persons, is that true?

    18 A. Well, from all those persons the -- I only knew one

    19 person from the whole slightly, one person who is on the

    20 list.

    21 Q. Mr. Dzajic, you have no personal knowledge about -- of

    22 the Celebici barracks, do you?

    23 A. I do not.

    24 Q. You have no personal knowledge of the Celebici prison

    25 either?

  87. 1 A. No.

    2 Q. Mr. Dzajic, you never went either to the barracks or to

    3 the Celebici prison, is that true?

    4 A. Yes, it is.

    5 Q. In fact, as all other inhabitants of Konjic, you knew

    6 before the war that the Celebici barracks belonged to

    7 the former JNA?

    8 A. Yes. I know that it was some kind of a military

    9 warehouse, that is what was said about it. But I was

    10 never there.

    11 Q. You stayed throughout the war in Konjic, from early

    12 April until the end of the war?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Have you, through the media and the local radio already,

    15 in April, heard that a General from the former JNA,

    16 General Kukanjac threatened to bomb Konjic?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Mr. Dzajic, do you know that on 6th April, 1992, Bosnia

    19 Herzegovina was proclaimed an independent state?

    20 A. Yes, I do.

    21 Q. Do you know that on that day aggression was carried out

    22 against Bosnia Herzegovina?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Mr. Dzajic, since you lived and worked in Konjic, could

    25 you confirm in front of this Trial Chamber that already

  88. 1 in mid April 1992 the town of Konjic was completely

    2 surrounded and blocked by barricades with armed Serbian

    3 patrols there, is that correct?

    4 A. Yes, that is correct.

    5 Q. Although the Tribunal is aware of it, but I would like

    6 to ask you, as an inhabitant of Konjic, is it true that

    7 your town, Konjic, is on the main road linking Sarajevo

    8 to Mostar and going further down to the sea, is that

    9 correct?

    10 A. Yes, it is.

    11 Q. Is it true that in the northern-most point of your

    12 municipality, next to this main road, there is the

    13 village of Bradina and from that village, through the

    14 tunnel going from, under the mountain of Igman, one can

    15 go from Herzegovina to Bosnia?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Is it true, Mr. Dzajic, that if the road is blocked at

    18 Bradina that inhabitants of Konjic have no possibility

    19 to take the road and go from Konjic to Sarajevo; neither

    20 can anyone come from Sarajevo to Konjic and go further

    21 down south?

    22 A. Yes, that is true.

    23 Q. As a witness of those events, could you tell us,

    24 Mr. Dzajic, whether it is true that the Serbian forces

    25 have occupied and completely blocked the eastern parts

  89. 1 of the municipality on the Pren Mountain near Boracko

    2 Jezero?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. And that the barricades with armed Serbian guards were

    5 also in the area of Celebici and Donje Selo, which are

    6 on the -- to the south of the town?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Mr. Dzajic, at that time you were not a member of an

    9 official authority or of the particular staff, military

    10 staff, in 1992, is that correct?

    11 A. Yes, it is. I was not a member of no kind of a staff.

    12 Q. As you have testified in front of this court, you worked

    13 at the company Unis and there you had a work assignment

    14 which at the same time was also a military assignment?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. In fact, the work and military assignments were

    17 established by decision of the authorities of the

    18 Republic because the state of the immediate threat of

    19 war was proclaimed in the country and in Konjic general

    20 mobilisation had been proclaimed, is that true?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Could you, please, tell me, Mr. Dzajic, whether, at that

    23 time, that is in April and May, was it a generally well

    24 known fact in Konjic that the Serbian population was

    25 being armed and these armed guards were patrolling?

  90. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. You probably know that the members of MUP, whilst

    3 searching through various apartments in the town, had

    4 already, in the month of April, found armaments in great

    5 quantity, and Chetnik insignia, and similar documents

    6 that were stating what was going on in the town and its

    7 surroundings, is that true?

    8 A. Yes, it is.

    9 Q. Mr. Dzajic, you were born in Konjic, were you not?

    10 A. I come from the suburbs of Konjic, not from the town

    11 itself, 7 kilometres from Konjic.

    12 Q. You come from the village of Dzajici?

    13 A. Yes, I do.

    14 Q. You have the same surname, which means that your family

    15 is quite widespread in that area?

    16 A. Yes, it is.

    17 Q. Mr. Dzajic, do you know the area of Konjic municipality

    18 well?

    19 A. One could say so.

    20 Q. Could you, on the map of the municipality of Konjic, show

    21 the location of certain villages that are in the

    22 territory of the municipality?

    23 A. I think I could show some of the villages, maybe not all

    24 of the villages.

    25 Q. I would like to ask now that with the assistance of the

  91. 1 usher the witness be shown a map of Konjic already

    2 admitted into evidence and tendered by the Prosecution

    3 when the witness Calic was testifying. Just to remind

    4 the witness, because that decision has also been

    5 admitted into evidence during the testifying of

    6 Dr. Calic, the witness Dr. Calic, so that the witness

    7 could, on that matter, where certain villages are marked

    8 by circles, that he could, maybe, point to these

    9 villages that are mentioned in that particular

    10 decision.

    11 At the same time, I have got here enough copies

    12 both for the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution, but as

    13 this exhibit had already been admitted into evidence,

    14 I will distribute those maps just to facilitate the

    15 testifying; but I will not tender into evidence this

    16 particular decision.

    17 At the same time, I would like to ask that the

    18 witness be shown this map, where I have put circles

    19 around certain villages, and that this map be marked;

    20 and in case the witness is able to recognise some of

    21 those areas, it is only then that I will tender it into

    22 evidence, tender it for admission.

    23 Mr. Dzajic, I should first like to ask you to look

    24 at this map and to tell me whether that is a map of the

    25 municipality of Konjic?

  92. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. I should now like to ask you, Mr. Dzajic, as you probably

    3 cannot assert the existence of this decision, whether

    4 you could point, with a pencil, to the location of the

    5 places I am going to read. These are the places from

    6 the decision on Serb territories that you have before

    7 you. I have indicated in red those places. So will you

    8 try to find them and tell me whether they are those

    9 places. The village of Bjelovcina. The village of

    10 Cerici. Donje Selo.

    11 A. This is Donje Selo and Cerici is this one. (Indicates).

    12 Q. Vinjiste. Zagorice. Brdjani. Bradina. Blace.

    13 Bijela. Boracko Jezero. Borci. I should now like to

    14 ask you to look at the blue circles and to identify the

    15 following places. Konjic, the centre of town, Pozetva.

    16 Gornji Gradac. Polje Bijela. Celebici. Ovcari.

    17 Podorasac?

    18 A. This is Podorasac. Ovcari was over here.

    19 Q. To avoid reading all the localities listed in the

    20 decision, could you tell me, Mr. Dzajic, whether all

    21 those places that you have indicated and identified are

    22 within the municipality of Konjic?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Can you confirm that only the centre of the village has

    25 been encircled whereas the actual territory of the

  93. 1 village is broader than indicated by the red or blue

    2 circles?

    3 A. The region is broader than indicated.

    4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dzajic, as a native of Konjic, if someone

    5 from the Konjic municipality were to separate all the

    6 places indicated in red and blue, or if all these places

    7 were to be armed and blocked, would the town have Konjic

    8 then be fully encircled and without any possibility of

    9 survival?

    10 A. I did not understand the beginning of your question.

    11 Q. Mr. Dzajic, if someone, or actually the inhabitants of

    12 these regions that I have marked in red and blue, were

    13 to claim that those regions belong to another

    14 municipality, a Serbian municipality of Konjic, or if

    15 those localities were to be armed, would that mean that

    16 Konjic would find itself totally surrounded and without

    17 any conditions for survival? Would that be correct?

    18 A. Yes. It would be under total blockade.

    19 Q. Thank you very much. Your Honours, I should like to

    20 tender this map of Konjic, on which the witness has

    21 recognised most of the localities, be marked and

    22 admitted as exhibit of the Defence into evidence.

    23 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I do not think we have any

    24 objection to it. For the record, it is not clear to me

    25 who put the markings on there, on the map. It is

  94. 1 certainly not on the original exhibit.

    2 MS. RESIDOVIC: I stated, quite clearly, for the benefit of

    3 the record, that I personally had made the marks, which

    4 is a map tendered by expert witness Calic and that I had

    5 encircled the localities from the Prosecution Exhibit,

    6 also as part of the expert witness' testimony. I just

    7 wanted this witness to confirm that these localities are

    8 within the bounds of the Konjic municipality, which the

    9 witness has done. As the map and the localities have

    10 been identified by the witness, I am tendering it as a

    11 Defence Exhibit to be admitted into evidence.

    12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It does not make any difference whether

    13 you had waited until now to encircle them. You need not

    14 have interfered with the witness before asking the

    15 witness to encircle them himself. You could have

    16 allowed him to encircle them himself. I do not think it

    17 matters but it makes it clearer.

    18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. What is the number of the

    19 exhibit, please.

    20 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked Defence Exhibit

    21 D73/1.

    22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

    23 Mr. Dzajic, I would like to ask you a few more

    24 questions. As a citizen of Konjic throughout 1992, you

    25 were a witness of the heavy shelling of the town, were

  95. 1 you not?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. The shelling started on 4th May, and continued on a

    4 daily basis, did it not?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. There were a large number of killed and wounded in the

    7 town every day?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. You can confirm that housing facilities, industrial

    10 facilities, schools, and even the hospital were shelled?

    11 A. Yes. Everything was destroyed. I think that the

    12 hospital was not at that time, but the industrial

    13 facilities and the apartment buildings, and the

    14 residential areas were shelled, heavily.

    15 Q. Thank you. You can probably confirm in this Trial

    16 Chamber that already at the end of April, and

    17 particularly so in May, there were severe shortages in

    18 town which lasted throughout 1992, did they not?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Actually in May already almost all the shops had been

    21 destroyed by the shells, is that correct?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. The town was deprived of the basic needs for normal

    24 life?

    25 A. Yes.

  96. 1 Q. If I say that the city bakery was shelled repeatedly and

    2 that in June it did not produce bread for the army or

    3 the hospital for three days, would you agree that that

    4 is a correct statement?

    5 A. Yes, almost regularly when the town was shelled the

    6 shells usually fell around the bakery, or in fact hit it

    7 directly, hit the bakery.

    8 Q. Actually the people in Konic obtained the little food

    9 they had from charitable organisation, Caritas, Merhamet

    10 and the Red Cross, is that not so?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. And they risked their lives and stood in line to get

    13 those supplies?

    14 A. Yes, at the time you could see lines of people where the

    15 basic food stuffs were being distributed, because they

    16 were not available virtually anywhere else.

    17 Q. Mr. Dzajic, unfortunately your village was one of the

    18 first villages to be hit by the Serb forces, was it not?

    19 A. Yes. Mine was the first house to burn.

    20 Q. In the first days of May, all the inhabitants of your

    21 village were expelled?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. You are aware, Mr. Dzajic, that early in May refugees

    24 began arriving to Konjic from other places, and

    25 especially in the villages in the direction of the Borci

  97. 1 Lake, these were Muslim and Croat refugees. You know

    2 that they came into town after spending days fleeing

    3 from eastern Herzegovina and specially Gacko. Is that

    4 correct?

    5 THE INTERPRETER: "May I have a five minute break, please?",

    6 says the witness.

    7 Q. Yes, I shall ask the Chamber to recess for five minutes,

    8 because we are all deeply moved when we recall what

    9 happened?

    10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will now rise.

    11 (5.15 pm)

    12 (Short break)

    13 (5.18 pm)

    14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can proceed, madam.

    15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

    16 Mr. Dzajic, before the short break?

    17 A. Before Ms. Residovic begins, may I apologise? I feel

    18 fine now, but since many members of my family were

    19 killed, our houses burned down, and this reminded me of

    20 all those things, but I am fine now.

    21 JUDGE ODIO-BENITO: You do not need to apologise here, you

    22 do not need to. We understand quite well.

    23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you.

    24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Dzajic, can you confirm in this court

    25 room that the information I received from the body for

  98. 1 Refugees and Social Welfare is correct, and that is that

    2 during 1992 more than 20,000 refugees passed through the

    3 town of Konjic and about 13,000 of them stayed in

    4 Konjic, whereby the population of the town was doubled.

    5 Are these figures approximately correct?

    6 A. I do not know, and I cannot claim that they are correct,

    7 but at the time so many refugees passed through the town

    8 of Konjic that no one can establish exactly their

    9 number. The population of the town of Konjic changed

    10 completely at the time.

    11 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Dzajic, that these people --

    12 Mr. Dzajic, you just said that the population structure

    13 changed completely; can you tell me whether this had a

    14 very strong impact on the overall supply situation, and

    15 the state of welfare of all the citizens of Konjic?

    16 A. Of course. Every day there was less and less housing

    17 space in the territory of Konjic and every day the

    18 number of refugees was going up, so that we had very

    19 serious problems finding accommodation for those

    20 refugees, and feeding them.

    21 Q. Is it correct to say that those people were put up in

    22 basements, in school premises, factory halls, because

    23 there was no room for them in the housing facilities,

    24 for these unfortunates?

    25 A. Yes.

  99. 1 Q. Is it true that these people recounted the horrors that

    2 occurred in the regions of eastern Bosnia and eastern

    3 Herzegovina?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Mr. Dzajic, is it true that you knew Mr. Zejnil Delalic

    6 only as a respected citizen of Konjic?

    7 A. Yes. A man who spent a lot of time abroad.

    8 Q. Mr. Dzajic, were you aware that Zejnil Delalic happened

    9 to be in Konjic during the war?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And you probably heard that at that time he was active

    12 in procuring things that were essential for the town and

    13 the citizens and also the defence forces?

    14 A. Yes, at least that was the story among the citizens of

    15 Konjic. They were saying that Zejnil Delalic had

    16 supplied the town with food and other essentials.

    17 Q. Did you perhaps know that Zejnil Delalic, at the time,

    18 tried to renew traffic along the railway line to Pazaric

    19 so as to facilitate movement of the population in this

    20 rather difficult terrain?

    21 A. I know that for a time the train operated, but I really

    22 do not know who was behind it; probably, yes.

    23 Q. So you personally know nothing about the duties that

    24 Zejnil Delalic performed at the time?

    25 A. No, I do not know. I had a work assignment and the

  100. 1 competencies were strictly divided at the time.

    2 Q. You personally did not participate in a single combat

    3 operation, did you?

    4 A. No, I did not.

    5 Q. Mr. Dzajic, from your personal knowledge, can you tell

    6 the Trial Chamber whether, at the beginning of the war,

    7 there was the Croatian Defence Council in Konjic which,

    8 when the war broke out, was better organised and better

    9 run than the Territorial Defence?

    10 A. Yes, the Croatian Defence Council existed from the very

    11 beginning.

    12 Q. Is it true that for that very reason a significant

    13 number of Muslims were within the ranks of the Croatian

    14 Defence Council at the beginning?

    15 A. Yes, because it seems to me, or at least that was the

    16 rumour, that they were given salaries. I do not know.

    17 Q. Mr. Dzajic, do you perhaps know that the Croatian Defence

    18 Council which, in the beginning, participated jointly

    19 with the Territorial Defence in combat operations, that

    20 that Croatian Defence Council refused to participate in

    21 the battles for the liberation of Borak and in the

    22 battles for lifting the blockade of Sarajevo?

    23 A. I am not aware of that.

    24 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you something that perhaps you

    25 have better knowledge of. As a local of Konjic, you

  101. 1 probably know that before the war in Konjic next to the

    2 court there was a small detention unit, which could not

    3 cater for more than 10 people. Is that so?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. In Konjic, there was only the Basic Court, which tried

    6 only less serious criminal offences before the war?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. For more serious criminal offences, there were the

    9 courts in Mostar and Sarajevo?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And is it correct to say that, Mr. Dzajic, at the time,

    12 in the summer of 1992, even that small Basic Court and

    13 the Prosecution was not operational in Konjic?

    14 A. I cannot remember. I was working in the factory every

    15 day.

    16 Q. Very well, if you cannot remember, that is also an

    17 important answer for these proceedings. Thank you. Can

    18 you tell me if you can confirm that Konjic, at that

    19 time, was cut off from Sarajevo, which was under siege,

    20 and from Mostar?

    21 A. Yes, Konjic, at the time, was under total blockade, as

    22 far as I know.

    23 Q. Mr. Dzajic, do you know that when the main highway was

    24 deblocked for several days, there were severe battles in

    25 the area of Bradina?

  102. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Like all the other citizens, you probably heard that

    3 some of the inhabitants of that region, who had

    4 participated in the fighting, or who had been armed,

    5 were arrested?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Is it true that you never heard, in Konjic, anybody

    8 talking about the mistreatment or killing of those

    9 detainees?

    10 A. At the time, I did not hear that.

    11 Q. Actually you can testify that at the time, that is in

    12 the summer of 1992, family members of these persons

    13 could be seen going on a visit. Could you see that?

    14 A. I would meet some on Saturdays and Sundays. I would see

    15 family members going to visit their relatives. I could

    16 not see them on other days, because I did not know about

    17 it, I was working, from morning 'til night.

    18 Q. Mr. Dzajic --

    19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is now such a time that it is

    20 convenient for us to close for the evening? Is it

    21 convenient for us to close now so you continue tomorrow

    22 morning?

    23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Certainly. Thank you, your Honours.

    24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, may I as a matter of personal

    25 privilege just say something?


    2 MR. ACKERMAN: When I arrived here this morning I was aware

    3 of the pleadings that had been filed by the Officer of

    4 the Prosecutor regarding the unwillingness of these

    5 witnesses who have appeared here today to come. Over

    6 the weekend, I became aware that they had claimed

    7 otherwise in newspaper articles in Sarajevo, and then

    8 I was able to confirm that they were claiming otherwise

    9 in some interviews that were had with them this

    10 morning. I believe that would be something that this

    11 Trial Chamber would want to have clarified, that is the

    12 reason I raised it. I want to say that if I in any way

    13 offended Mr. Niemann or any member of the Prosecutor's

    14 staff I apologise for that and also apologise for any

    15 way I might have offended the court.

    16 I believe that it was a serious matter and

    17 I matter that needed to be delved into, both with regard

    18 to the credibility of the witnesses appearing here and

    19 with regard to what the truth is about how we get two

    20 widely divergent and varying stories about this issue of

    21 whether witnesses were prepared to come here or not.

    22 Obviously, I was mistaken about that and I apologise and

    23 thank you for allowing me to say those things.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for your approach

    25 to the matter. I think we are satisfied that Mr. Niemann

  104. 1 acted on information which was given to him by members

    2 of the Office of the Prosecution, and that was what he

    3 relied on in the motion which he filed. I thought that

    4 was sufficient for the actual need.

    5 JUDGE JAN: Speaking personally, you have not annoyed me at

    6 all.

    7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Not at all. These things do happen and

    8 it does not matter.

    9 MR. NIEMANN: I thank Mr. Ackerman for his apology.

    10 (5.35 pm)

    11 (Adjourned until 10.00 am

    12 on Wednesday 22nd October 1997)