The International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Case No.IT-96-21

  1. 1 Wednesday, 22nd October, 1997

    2 (10.00 am)

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

    4 Can we have the appearances now?

    5 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases, my name is Niemann and

    6 I appear with my colleague Mr. Khan for the Prosecution.

    7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The appearances for the Defence,

    8 please.

    9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honour. My name is

    10 Edina Residovic and I am Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil

    11 Delalic. With me appears my colleague, Eugene

    12 O'Sullivan, professor from Canada.

    13 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honour. My name is Zeljko

    14 Olujic, Defence counsel for Zdravko Mucic. I would like

    15 to apologise on behalf of my co-counsel Michael Greaves,

    16 attorney from the United Kingdom; I hope he will be with

    17 us later in the day.

    18 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honour. I am Salih

    19 Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, and I am Defence

    20 counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic. With me appears Mr. Thomas

    21 Moran, lawyer from Houston Texas.

    22 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours. I appear here on

    23 behalf of Esad Landzo. My co-counsel is Ms. Cynthia

    24 McMurrey. Thank you.

    25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Can we now have

  2. 1 the witness back?

    2 (Witness entered court)

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would you kindly remind the witness

    4 that he is still on his oath?

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, I remind you that you are still under

    6 oath.

    7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Ms. Residovic, continue with your

    8 cross-examination.

    9 Cross-examination by MS. RESIDOVIC (continued)

    10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Mr. Dzajic.

    11 A. Good morning.

    12 Q. Yesterday, before our session ended, we have talked

    13 about the fact that you have never been to either the

    14 barracks or the prison in Celebici, is that correct?

    15 A. Yes, that is correct.

    16 Q. So, Mr. Dzajic, you do not have any personal knowledge of

    17 what was happening, if anything, in that barracks and

    18 what kinds of facilities were in there, is that correct?

    19 A. Yes, it is.

    20 Q. You have confirmed in front of this Tribunal that you

    21 have not been an employee or the manager of the public

    22 utilities company, Standard, in 1992, and that the facts

    23 you gave you based on the memory of your predecessor,

    24 Mr. Zebic, is that true?

    25 A. Yes, it is.

  3. 1 Q. So, Mr. Dzajic, you cannot affirm in front of this

    2 Tribunal that these data are 100 per cent true, correct?

    3 A. Yes, it is.

    4 Q. So you have never checked these data, have you, if not

    5 from the memory and the notes from Mr. Zebic?

    6 A. No, I have not checked anything, because I did not

    7 inherit any records so I could not verify. At that

    8 time, as I said, I had my work assignment at the company

    9 at the factory Unis.

    10 Q. Thank you. So in fact you cannot know at all neither

    11 where nor how the persons from the certificate died, is

    12 that true?

    13 A. Yes, it is.

    14 Q. Mr. Dzajic, you have heard that Mr. Delalic had left

    15 Konjic towards the end of November, 1992 and at that

    16 time in Konjic started some kind of a witch hunt. There

    17 were claims that he went away with a Chetnik helicopter

    18 and that he was on the Serb side. Did you hear about

    19 that?

    20 A. Yes, there were rumours. The town was under a blockade,

    21 blocked, so there were lots of rumours. As I said,

    22 I had my work assignment, and I worked around the clock,

    23 so I was not able to go out very much. There was also

    24 lots of shellings. But such rumours could be heard

    25 amongst the inhabitants of Konjic.

  4. 1 MS. RESIDOVIC: I have no more questions for you,

    2 Mr. Dzajic. Thank you very much. I wish you a safe trip

    3 home. Thank you. Thank you, your Honours.

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other cross-examination?

    5 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honour, the Defence for Mr. Mucic has no

    6 questions for Mr. Dzajic thank you.

    7 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, I will briefly ask a few

    8 questions.

    9 Cross-examination by MR. KARABDIC

    10 MR. KARABDIC: May I proceed, your Honours?

    11 Mr. Dzajic, my name is Salih Karabdic and I am the

    12 Defence counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic. I would like to ask

    13 you a few questions. I would like you to bear in mind

    14 the instructions which my learned friend Ms. Residovic

    15 gave to you. Could you tell me, please, as a local from

    16 Konjic, were you aware of the fact that in November 1990

    17 elections were held for the Assembly and the Presidency

    18 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and that the inhabitants of Konjic

    19 voted in that election?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Do you know whether at that time elections were also

    22 held for the Municipal Assembly of Konjic?

    23 A. Yes, they were.

    24 Q. On the same day?

    25 A. Yes.

  5. 1 Q. Were those elections free? That is, could all the

    2 parties have their candidates? Could there be also

    3 independent candidates? Were there also independent

    4 candidates?

    5 A. Yes, there were.

    6 Q. Was there, after these elections, also established a

    7 Municipal Assembly of Konjic?

    8 A. Yes, it was.

    9 Q. Do you know whether it was constitute?

    10 A. Yes, it was.

    11 Q. Did it elect its President?

    12 A. Yes, it did.

    13 Q. Its Executive Council?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Has this executive committee taken over the power after

    16 the elections?

    17 A. Yes, it did.

    18 Q. Could you, please, tell me whether, if you know, whether

    19 that Assembly and these bodies, were they operational

    20 towards the end of 1990, in 1991 and in 1992?

    21 A. As far as I know, they held meetings up until -- I do

    22 not know when the last meeting was held, but I knew they

    23 could meet and they could be operational up until the

    24 aggression.

    25 Q. Do you know that since the aggression and after the

  6. 1 immediate threat of war was proclaimed, do you know that

    2 War Presidency was established in accordance with the

    3 constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that the War

    4 Presidency took over the function of the Municipal

    5 Assembly, according to the constitution?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Did that Municipal Assembly, that is the War Presidency,

    8 function in 1992 and during the war?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Since the elections, and during all those three years

    11 I hereby have in mind, 1990, 1991 and 1992, the years we

    12 are speaking of here, so was during all that time in

    13 Konjic a legally -- a legally elected authority?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Did that authority establish that it has its internal

    16 affairs, that means its police, a security?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Did it function, did it work from after the elections

    19 and all throughout this first year of the war?

    20 A. Yes, it did function, but I do not know well the

    21 internal structure. But, yes, there was -- the police

    22 did exist.

    23 Q. Thank you very much. These are all my questions. Thank

    24 you, your Honours.

    25 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, the Defence of Esad Landzo has

  7. 1 no questions of this witness but we would like to

    2 express our appreciation for his appearing here.

    3 Thank you very much, Mr. Dzajic.

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?

    5 MR. NIEMANN: No re-examination, your Honour.

    6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Dzajic, I think that is all. Thank

    7 you very much. We are very grateful you were here. So

    8 you are discharged.

    9 A. Thank you for the end of this thing now.

    10 (The witness withdrew)

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have your next witness?

    12 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls General Arif

    13 Pasalic. Your Honours, while the witness is coming into

    14 the court he has indicated to me that he wishes to

    15 address your Honours on the question of the subpoena.

    16 He is reluctant to testify at the moment because of a

    17 death in his family, and he says that he would be

    18 prepared to testify after the 10th November. I have

    19 told General Pasalic that this is a matter he can raise

    20 with you, as he is under order of subpoena.

    21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, let him come in. Yes, you can

    22 swear the witness

    23 GENERAL ARIF PASALIC, (sworn)

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may take your seat, please.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: Sir, would you please state your full name?

  8. 1 A. My name is Arif Pasalic.

    2 Q. I understand you wish to address some words to their

    3 Honours in relation to the subpoena that has been issued

    4 against you, is that correct?

    5 A. Yes, that is correct.

    6 Q. And you seek their Honours leave to address them?

    7 A. Yes, I do.

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What do you have to say to the Trial

    9 Chamber?

    10 A. What I would like to say is that I am very surprised

    11 that a subpoena has been proclaimed, especially because

    12 up until now I co-operated with the representatives of

    13 The Hague Tribunal. My country did not contest that

    14 I could co-operate with The Hague Tribunal, and what is

    15 more I was even encouraged to do so.

    16 I have recently had a death in my family. My

    17 brother has died, and my brother lost his family members

    18 during this war. In a letter I have asked for the

    19 postponement of my testifying in front of this

    20 Tribunal. I have asked for a reasonable delay, which

    21 would correspond to our customs where we have a 40 day

    22 period of mourning. By the subpoena my name appeared in

    23 newspapers and in the media and I was exposed to certain

    24 pressure. It appeared as if I was forced to come to The

    25 Hague to testify. That is why I ask the court to

  9. 1 abolish this subpoena. That is all I have to say.

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, the subpoena was issued on the

    3 application of the Prosecution, having given reasons why

    4 it ought to be issued. One of the reasons was that

    5 perhaps you were not co-operating sufficiently to be able

    6 to attend at The Hague to testify. I am sure the

    7 Prosecutor would have told you what prompted the issue

    8 of the subpoena. Did you complain to him and tell him

    9 this version of your story?

    10 A. I said this to the Prosecutor, Mr. Grant, and I think

    11 that Mr. Grant and all the others know that I did not

    12 show any signs, or neither I have said, that I would not

    13 come to testify.

    14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber is having this

    15 information from you, quite distinct from what was told

    16 to it at the application for the subpoena, and we base

    17 authority to issue this subpoena on the facts available

    18 to us at the time. Now, I refer to your unwillingness

    19 to testify after having been here as to a religious

    20 custom which excludes you from participation in public

    21 matters, is that so?

    22 A. I explained in a letter that in my -- that my people,

    23 there is a custom that for 40 days I should be with my

    24 family and not to participate in anything that is not

    25 within the framework of our family. I simply ask for a

  10. 1 period of delay.

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this is a little difficult for

    3 the Trial Chamber, which also takes into account the

    4 interests of other participants in the Prosecution

    5 itself, and other matters affecting arrangement of court

    6 sittings, other witnesses, and measures to facilitate

    7 the trial. You are already here and I do not think it

    8 would make much of a difference if your testimony goes

    9 ahead. This is quite a different thing from involuntary

    10 attendance to give evidence. You are not on pleasure

    11 trip, you are here doing a duty towards justice, which

    12 is not an infringement of any custom. You are being

    13 helpful. I think your custom will take into account the

    14 fact of your duty to us and your relevance in the

    15 prosecution we are undertaking.

    16 So please ignore this custom for the time being,

    17 because I am sure it will not take too long for you to

    18 complete your testimony and be discharged. You will go

    19 back to your family within the week. I do not think the

    20 Trial Chamber is supposed to grant that application for

    21 you not to testify now because of other commitments in

    22 the period you have suggested may be difficult for us to

    23 accommodate that. So you might co-operate with the Trial

    24 Chamber and testify.

    25 So Mr. Niemann?

  11. 1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I know --

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That was an application by this

    3 witness.

    4 MS. RESIDOVIC: I was just about to say that I know that it

    5 is not my place to comment on this, but since the

    6 witness has clearly stated that he never refused to come

    7 to testify, I would like to know whether the court will

    8 rule on his request for the annulment of the subpoena,

    9 regardless of when this witness will testify. I am

    10 asking for the benefit of the other witnesses too. I

    11 have been reading the Sarajevo press, and I think that

    12 the Trial Chamber must rule whether the subpoena was

    13 improperly issued on the basis of incorrect information,

    14 and that is why I should like the Trial Chamber to think

    15 over the request of the witness and to convey its ruling

    16 to the public. I am sorry for intervening, but I am

    17 reading the media regularly, and the facts that were

    18 conveyed to you and which served as a basis for your

    19 decision appear to have been totally incorrect.

    20 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, may I respond to that, your

    21 Honours? Might I suggest to counsel that rather than

    22 relying on the media she relies on the facts. Counsel

    23 has been supplied this morning with at least some of the

    24 material relied upon by the Prosecution. It is very

    25 clear what information was relied upon. I suggest she

  12. 1 reads that, rather than come to this Chamber and start

    2 suggesting things on the basis of things she picks up in

    3 the media.

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. You may proceed.

    5 Examination by MR. NIEMANN

    6 MR. NIEMANN: Sir, when were you born?

    7 A. On 31st August, 1943.

    8 Q. And where was that? Where were you born?

    9 A. I was born in Janjici near Zenica in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    10 Q. What is your ethnic background?

    11 A. My background is Muslim or Bosniak.

    12 Q. What is your profession?

    13 A. I was an officer in the former Yugoslav People's Army

    14 and I am now an officer in the Army of the Federation.

    15 Q. How many years have you served as a military officer?

    16 A. After my elementary education I joined the second

    17 military school for non-commissioned officers and after

    18 1962 I first started as a non-commissioned officer in

    19 the former JNA and became an officer in 1967.

    20 Q. What is your current rank and position in the army of

    21 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    22 A. I have the rank of Brigadier General. I am now head of

    23 the department for control in the joint command of the

    24 Federation Army.

    25 Q. Where were you stationed in April of 1992?

  13. 1 A. At the beginning of April 1992, I went to Mostar and

    2 reported to the municipal staff of the Territorial

    3 Defence of Mostar.

    4 Q. And what was your rank at the time?

    5 A. At the time, I was Lieutenant Colonel, a rank granted by

    6 the Yugoslav People's Army.

    7 Q. When you arrived at Mostar, what did you do then?

    8 A. When I reported to the Mostar Territorial Defence, I was

    9 adviser for military issues for about 15 days.

    10 Q. And what was the purpose and function of that post that

    11 you had with the Territorial Defence?

    12 A. The function was to make suggestions regarding the

    13 organisation and defence against the aggressor.

    14 Q. Now, initially who was your Commander in the Mostar

    15 Territorial Defence?

    16 A. We did not have a Commander. There was the Chief-of-

    17 Staff of the Territorial Defence, Hasim Semsudija.

    18 Q. Did the structure of the Mostar Territorial Defence

    19 undergo any changes while you were there?

    20 A. We adjusted the structure of the Territorial Defence,

    21 depending on the conditions of the Defence against the

    22 aggressor, and shortly we formed units in local

    23 communities. They were squads and later platoons, and

    24 then we developed a system of defence of Mostar.

    25 Q. Did your position in the Territorial Defence then

  14. 1 subsequently change? Did you take up another position

    2 in the Mostar Territorial Defence?

    3 A. On 13th May, I took over as Battalion Commander for the

    4 Defence of Mostar and I held that post until 15th July,

    5 1992, when I formed the first Mostar Brigade and was its

    6 Commander. Later in November, to be more precise as of

    7 17th November, I formed the 4th Corps of the army of

    8 Bosnia-Herzegovina and was Commander.

    9 Q. Do you know a person called Sefer Halilovic?

    10 A. Sefer Halilovic at the time was Chief-of-Staff of the

    11 Republican staff of the Territorial Defence. I met him

    12 during the war, and I do know him.

    13 Q. And do you know when he assumed the position of chief of

    14 staff, approximately?

    15 A. I think it was somewhere in May, I cannot recall

    16 exactly, in May 1992.

    17 Q. For the benefit of the Chamber, are you able to give the

    18 Chamber some idea of the distance by road from Mostar to

    19 Konjic, approximately?

    20 A. From Mostar to Konjic, if you are thinking of the

    21 locality Konjic near Busovaca, I think the distance is

    22 about 200 kilometres. If you go via Sarajevo along the

    23 Bosna River valley and the Lasva River valley to Kaonik

    24 --

    25 JUDGE JAN: You are talking of Konjic or some other town?

  15. 1 The pronunciation is different.

    2 MR. NIEMANN: I do apologise, Konjic.

    3 A. I apologise, because there is a locality called Kaonik

    4 near Busovaca. As for the distance, it is 40 to 50

    5 kilometres.

    6 Q. In the early part of 1992 -- when I say the earlier

    7 part, I am talking April through to July -- can you give

    8 their Honours a general description of the conditions

    9 affecting the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

    10 structure of it at that very early stage?

    11 A. From April 1992; actually, after the recognition of

    12 Bosnia-Herzegovina there was a Republican staff of

    13 Territorial Defence based in Sarajevo. Outside Sarajevo

    14 there were district and municipal staffs of Territorial

    15 Defence, which were rather dispersed and disorganised,

    16 because people of Serbian ethnicity and quite a number

    17 of people of Croatian nationality had left these bodies,

    18 so it was mostly Bosniaks who remained and in personnel

    19 terms they were not very qualified.

    20 In Mostar there was a municipal TO because the

    21 district TO was disbanded, it fell apart. At the time,

    22 we did not have a complete system of organisation or

    23 control and command which was in the process of being

    24 established. We did not have a constant system of

    25 communications, because these were intercepted by the

  16. 1 sieges of Sarajevo and other towns. There were numerous

    2 paramilitary formations and armed groups, because the

    3 process of aggression was fierce, so that we had no

    4 choice but to set up an organisation in the municipal

    5 staff, in the form of an army, the beginnings of an

    6 army, as best we could. With the republican TO staff we

    7 maintained contact most frequently by radio links,

    8 short-wave links and by messengers.

    9 Q. What had happened to the former army of Yugoslavia, the

    10 JNA, at this stage, in April or May 1992?

    11 A. I abandoned the former Yugoslav People's Army at the

    12 beginning of March and at the beginning of March

    13 I joined the Territorial Defence. The former Yugoslav

    14 People's Army had already changed its characteristics,

    15 concepts and structure so that it no longer resembled

    16 the Yugoslav People's Army such as it was in the former

    17 Yugoslavia. In that system of control and demand there

    18 were already evident signs and aspirations towards the

    19 establishment of a greater Serbia with a high degree of

    20 nationalism and hatred for other ethnic groups. People

    21 who were not pro-Serbian were dismissed from positions

    22 of command and who did not fit into this policy of a

    23 greater Serbia. I was one of them. Assignments were

    24 given exclusively to people that enjoyed trust, and

    25 units were already being used to block certain roads and

  17. 1 communications to collect weapons from TO warehouses.

    2 The shelling of Sarajevo had started, the shelling

    3 of Mostar, road blocks were put up. In a word, a

    4 chaotic situation in which you had two signs; on the one

    5 side the former Yugoslav People's Army, which had

    6 changed its insignia from the five-cornered star to the

    7 coat of arms of the present Republika Srpska, and using

    8 the armament, artillery and all the weapons that were

    9 shelling communications, towns, villages, the innocent

    10 and civilians. For me the Yugoslav People's Army no

    11 longer existed. It had acquired a completely different

    12 form of organisation, and had been transformed into an

    13 army which was carrying out aggression against its own

    14 people.

    15 Q. Now, the forces that were -- that did exist, that were

    16 arranged against the former JNA; you mentioned, in your

    17 evidence, that they equipped themselves with arms from

    18 former -- from Territorial Defence barracks and so

    19 forth. Where else were arms acquired from during that

    20 period, by those forces?

    21 A. There were no TO barracks. There were barracks of the

    22 former JNA and there were warehouses or depots in which

    23 the equipment and armaments of the TO were stored, but

    24 these warehouses had mostly been emptied by the JNA,

    25 which took all the equipment and armaments that it

  18. 1 could. We set up units in local communities, in

    2 hamlets, villages. The units were equipped with the

    3 armaments we had, hunting rifles and Carbines. In some

    4 cases, TO staffs did acquire weapons, as was the case in

    5 Zenica where they conditioned the surrender of armaments

    6 to allow the troops of the former JNA to leave. In some

    7 cases TO units physically captured weapons from the

    8 remnants of the JNA and we purchased weapons with the

    9 money that we had and that we received from individuals,

    10 and we procured those weapons in various ways. I can

    11 tell you only about the way that I got hold of weapons.

    12 Q. Thank you. Now we mentioned earlier the position of

    13 Mr. Sefer Halilovic, the Chief-of-Staff. What were his

    14 responsibilities?

    15 A. Sefer Halilovic was Chief-of-Staff of the Supreme

    16 Command. That is how his function was called at first

    17 and he was the superior, or he had a command function in

    18 relation to all TO structures in the territory of

    19 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    20 Q. Now, to who did Mr. Halilovic report at that time? Who

    21 was his superior?

    22 A. The Supreme Commander of the Territorial Defence of

    23 Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole was President Izetbegovic,

    24 according to the constitution and the law, so that he

    25 probably reported to higher levels of authority.

  19. 1 Q. And are you able to indicate to us the -- probably you

    2 cannot do it in relation to all of them, but the people

    3 who were the immediate subordinates of Mr. Halilovic?

    4 A. The subordinates of Chief Sefer Halilovic were all the

    5 commanders of district staffs, all the commanders of

    6 municipal staffs, commanders of units, independent

    7 brigades, that were formed, and myself as Commander of

    8 Battalion and Brigade were subordinated to the staff of

    9 the Supreme Command. As the Corps Commander I was also

    10 subordinate to the Supreme Command. This applied to all

    11 the municipal district TO staffs, the commanders of

    12 independent units, the commanders of certain groups; in

    13 some cases they were called tactical groups. They were

    14 all subordinate to the Commander.

    15 Q. And I think you said that Mr. Halilovic was your

    16 immediate superior in the early part of 1992?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Now, in the latter part of 1992, did you receive an

    19 order in relation to the 4th Corps?

    20 A. Somewhere around the 16th or 17th November I was in the

    21 territory of Zenica municipality on assignment to form

    22 the joint command of the army, consisting of the

    23 Territorial Defence and the Croatian Defence Council.

    24 I was informed that I should return urgently to the

    25 command of the 1st Mostar Brigade, where I was given

  20. 1 orders to form the 4th Corps of the Army of the Republic

    2 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That 4th Corps was to unite all

    3 the military organisations along the Neretva River

    4 valley. This was on 17th November, 1992, that

    5 I received orders to form the 4th Corp.

    6 Q. Who issued that order to you?

    7 A. The chief of staff of the Supreme Command, Sefer

    8 Halilovic.

    9 Q. Are you able to tell us the geographical scope of the

    10 new 4th Corps that was established? Can you tell us the

    11 municipalities that it took in?

    12 A. I was to organise and encompass TO units along the

    13 Neretva River valley from the pass at Bradina to cover

    14 the units of the Konjic municipalities, the

    15 municipalities of Prozor, the municipality of Jablanica

    16 and the municipality of Mostar, as well as the other

    17 municipalities, Nevesinje, Gacko Stolac, Capljina, if

    18 there were any TO units in those territories.

    19 Q. How did you go about establishing the 4th Corps? What

    20 did you do in relation to it, in compliance with your

    21 orders?

    22 A. The formation of the 4th Corps is a process which, within

    23 the system of control and command, takes some time in

    24 wartime; this period is much shorter than in peacetime.

    25 In view of the situation that existed at the time, upon

  21. 1 receiving the order, I undertook to tour the units in

    2 that territory to establish contact with the commanders

    3 of units, to meet with them, and to brief them, if they

    4 had not already been informed of that, that they were

    5 now part of a new formation called the 4th Corp. I was

    6 to organise those units, and if they were already

    7 organised I was to establish a command structure. I was

    8 appointed the Commander, and I had a chief of staff

    9 appointed to me; as for all the others, I had to find

    10 the appropriate people and to give them assignments

    11 which had to be verified by the Supreme Command staff.

    12 Q. Sir, did you know a man by the name of Zejnil Delalic?

    13 A. Yes, I did. Actually I met Zejnil Delalic during the

    14 war.

    15 Q. Can you describe the circumstances of how you came to

    16 meet him?

    17 A. I do not know the exact date but I think it was the

    18 second half of the summer, after fighting in the south

    19 against the aggressor forces and the liberation of a

    20 part of Mostar. I met with Mr. Zejnil Delalic in Konjic

    21 once, once not of Konjic, I cannot exactly remember the

    22 locality, it was in the mountains, and once in

    23 Jablanica.

    24 Q. When you met him, do you know what position he held?

    25 A. I think that at the time he held the position of

  22. 1 co-ordinator.

    2 Q. What do you understand by the term "co-ordinator"? What

    3 is that function?

    4 A. If we wished to define in general terms the term

    5 "co-ordinator" in a military sense, it is a man who is

    6 supposed to co-ordinate measures, procedures, involved in

    7 carrying out certain assignments. I do not know exact

    8 what Mr. Zejnil Delalic as a co-ordinator had assigned to

    9 him. This must have been determined by whoever it was

    10 that appointed him co-ordinator.

    11 Q. In the former JNA I think you said you had similar

    12 positions. What role did the co-ordinators play in the

    13 military sense in the former JNA?

    14 A. The former Yugoslav People's Army did not have this

    15 permanent post of co-ordinator. These were only

    16 provisional positions. A certain person may be

    17 appointed to co-ordinate a particular activity, but there

    18 was no permanent position within a formation that was

    19 called a "co-ordinator". Such an appointment would be

    20 issued on a temporary basis, because the word itself

    21 implies the co-ordination among one, two or three

    22 parties, or people in a certain assignment, so that in

    23 the former JNA occasionally a co-ordinator would be

    24 appointed to carry out definite assignments.

    25 Q. And in terms of the role that Mr. Delalic played as

  23. 1 co-ordinator, do you know any details of the functions he

    2 performed in this role?

    3 A. I do not know which details I could describe for you.

    4 I met Zejnil as a highly respected man who played a very

    5 noteworthy role in the resistance; a man who in Konjic

    6 municipality was one of the protagonists in putting up

    7 resistance against the aggressor.

    8 Q. Do you know whether he performed a military or a

    9 civilian role?

    10 A. In the war it is difficult to separate the military from

    11 the civilian activities, particularly in the kind of

    12 aggression that we had in Bosnia-Herzegovina, so that

    13 both civilian and military tasks were all in the service

    14 of defence. As far as I know, Zejnil Delalic

    15 co-ordinated both civilian and military structures that

    16 existed in Konjic at the time. My contact with Zejnil

    17 was co-ordination and co-operation between me as Brigade

    18 Commander and him as Zejnil Delalic, a co-ordinator, to

    19 the extent to which we could assist one another in the

    20 exchange of opinions, advice, or in the form of any kind

    21 of material assistance.

    22 Q. Might the witness be shown Exhibit 67, please? Your

    23 Honours, I have made copies of these exhibits, so that

    24 if your Honours do not have copies of them you can look

    25 at it. I have also made a copy for the Defence. I ask

  24. 1 that the witness be shown the exhibit. I am not asking

    2 they be marked, it is only to assist your Honours while

    3 we are going through these things.

    4 General, would you look at the document that you

    5 are now shown, Exhibit 67, and read through it, if you

    6 would, for me, please, and then I will ask a question of

    7 you?

    8 A. In the heading it says:

    9 "War Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Konjic

    10 municipality, number 01-21/92. Date: May 2nd, 1992. On

    11 the basis of the decision of the War Presidency of

    12 Herzegovina" --

    13 Q. If I may interrupt you. If you could read it quietly to

    14 yourself. If you could read it to yourself, so that you

    15 can be familiar.

    16 A. I apologise. I have read it.

    17 Q. Thank you. General, are the details of that exhibit,

    18 that special authorisation, consistent with what you

    19 understand to be the role of co-ordinator, as you have

    20 described it in your evidence?

    21 A. You asked me my opinion about co-ordinators, and

    22 I conveyed it to you. But this is a document giving

    23 certain authorisations to the co-ordinator. The

    24 President of the War Presidency and Commander of the

    25 military staff are authorising, giving certain

  25. 1 authorisations to the co-ordinator, by means of this

    2 document.

    3 These organisations are reduced to three points.

    4 First, he is authorised to lead in negotiations and

    5 concluding contracts between the main headquarters of

    6 the region of Herceg-Bosna and all representatives to

    7 conclude all kind of agreements on acquisition of

    8 weapons and joint actions of troops on the front. Those

    9 are the authorisations given to him by the body that

    10 issued this authorisation and it is valid for six

    11 months.

    12 Q. Is it consistent with what you understand the role of

    13 this particular person at that time, as you understand

    14 the structure?

    15 A. The structure of Territorial Defence at the time was as

    16 I described it to you; and this authorisation, I am not

    17 competent to answer the question whether this

    18 authorisation was in the spirit of the valid laws. It

    19 is up to the personnel giving the authorisation to

    20 decide.

    21 JUDGE JAN: This might be misleading. I think this document

    22 bears the date "2nd May". We have the notification by

    23 which he was appointed the co-ordinator; it is much later

    24 date, so this is nothing to do with his duty as a

    25 co-ordinator.

  26. 1 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps I will move on to that. Perhaps that

    2 exhibit might be handed back, and you could look at

    3 Exhibit 68, if you would.

    4 A. I have read it.

    5 Q. General, having looked at Exhibit 68, is the appointment

    6 that you see there consistent with what you understood

    7 to be the way matters were proceeding, particularly in a

    8 military sense, in the early part of 1992, May 1992?

    9 A. I do not know what you are implying exactly.

    10 Q. Well, I will be more specific. The appointment of

    11 Zejnil Delalic is by the President of the Presidency; is

    12 that something you would consider to be consistent with

    13 the circumstances of the revolution of the army of

    14 Bosnia-Herzegovina at that particularly early period in

    15 time, namely May, 1992?

    16 A. This is a decision, or rather a document in the form of

    17 a decision, of the President of the War Presidency of

    18 Konjic municipality, Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic. He took

    19 the decision and it is stated in the preamble of the

    20 basis of a session held in Konjic, which means that the

    21 municipality, as the civilian authority, had decided to

    22 appoint Zejnil Delalic as co-ordinator of the defence

    23 forces in Konjic municipality. The President of the

    24 municipality and the competent bodies can answer the

    25 question as to whether this was consistent or not.

  27. 1 If it is called "War Presidency", then it must

    2 engage in the question of defence against aggression,

    3 and the President of the municipality regulated the

    4 matter in the way shown in this document.

    5 Q. And if you look at the top of the page, it says, does it

    6 not, that it was the War Presidency?

    7 A. Yes, that is what it says.

    8 Q. Thank you. Now, the President -- just before we leave

    9 that document, the President of the War Presidency that

    10 is mentioned there, Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic. Did you

    11 know that person at all?

    12 A. Yes, I did.

    13 Q. When did you meet him?

    14 A. In the course of the war.

    15 Q. And what position did he hold when you met him?

    16 A. He was President of the municipality.

    17 Q. And what did you understand to be his responsibilities

    18 as President of the municipality?

    19 A. At the time, as Battalion and Brigade Commander, I did

    20 not even try to comprehend his competencies. I was

    21 concerned with military issues, and my co-operation with

    22 the President of the municipality of Konjic and other

    23 Presidents was only to the extent that it contributed to

    24 the struggle against the aggressor.

    25 Q. And to what extent was that?

  28. 1 A. If you are thinking specifically of the President of the

    2 municipality of Konjic, I met with him several times.

    3 These were meetings, as in the case with Mr. Zejnil

    4 Delalic, when we discussed the situation, how to resist

    5 the aggressor, what chances of defence there were. We

    6 were most concerned by supplies. We had the men, the

    7 manpower, but we did not have clothing or food or

    8 equipment; and we were exposed to aggression. We asked

    9 the President of the municipality to provide the

    10 conditions for us to be able to fight.

    11 Q. Is there any distinction between a President of a

    12 municipality and a War President?

    13 A. The name itself is indicative of the difference. The

    14 President of the municipality may also be the President

    15 of the War Presidency and, as its name indicates, it

    16 probably decides about crucial matters in times of war.

    17 Questions which are of interest to the municipality,

    18 these are probably regulated by the constitution and the

    19 laws.

    20 Q. They may or may not have been at that time, is that

    21 correct, regulated by the laws?

    22 A. I am not competent to say whether they were or not, in

    23 view of the fact that it was a state of war and there

    24 were probably possibilities to do things pursuant to the

    25 law and some things even against the law.

  29. 1 Q. Apart from the municipality of Konjic, did you have

    2 dealings yourself with Presidents of War Presidencies in

    3 other municipalities?

    4 A. I did have contacts with the Presidents of the

    5 municipalities of Mostar, Capljina, Stolac, almost with

    6 all the Presidents in our area of responsibility where

    7 we were stationed.

    8 Q. And was the nature of the business that you had, the

    9 business dealings that you had with these Presidents,

    10 similar to the nature of the dealings you had with the

    11 President of the War Presidency in Konjic?

    12 A. Yes, virtually the same. These contacts were mostly

    13 limited to defence from aggression.

    14 Q. Terms of their authority, as far as you understand; what

    15 authority did they have over military matters, in the

    16 early part of 1992, as opposed to when, perhaps later?

    17 A. I do not know what was their authority, their

    18 competence, but I, as Commander of that unit, that is

    19 the Brigade and the Corps, had the responsibility towards

    20 my unit. It was the framework of their organisation,

    21 and I had to report and was responsible to the

    22 headquarters, the staff of the Supreme Command and I do

    23 not know about their responsibilities.

    24 Q. I think you said earlier in your evidence that one of

    25 the priorities in that early part of the war was that

  30. 1 acquisition of evidence, and you gave some evidence

    2 about that, in terms of it being seized from various

    3 places; and in addition to that it being acquired, as

    4 well.

    5 I would ask you to look, if you would, for me,

    6 please, at document MFI121. I also have a copy of this

    7 document here.

    8 General, this is a hand-written document. It may

    9 be a little difficult to read. I would ask you if you,

    10 would, please -- it should be a hand-written document.

    11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honours, may we be informed as to what

    12 this document is? I do not recognise MFI121 as an

    13 initial.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps the General can be given the original,

    15 not the English version.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: I only have the English version in the

    17 records, so I will mark the Croatian version and give it

    18 to the witness.

    19 MR. NIEMANN: I have provided a copy, I hope, to the

    20 Defence.

    21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: May we see that, please?

    22 MR. NIEMANN: Might one copy be given to their Honours, and

    23 at least one copy to the Defence?

    24 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honours, we object to this witness

    25 being shown this document. It has not been admitted

  31. 1 into evidence. The document is from the seized

    2 documents from Vienna which is not yet proven.

    3 Therefore, it is inadmissible.

    4 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, it is a standard procedure for

    5 documents to be shown to a number of witnesses at any

    6 stage in the proceedings and for the documents to be

    7 identified. If the General is in a position to speak to

    8 the document and express some view about it, then it is

    9 entirely appropriate.

    10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Proceed.

    11 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you.

    12 General, have you had an opportunity to read that?

    13 A. No, not up to now, but I have read it now.

    14 Q. And are you able to express any view, having regard to

    15 the circumstances that prevailed at that time, that is

    16 on 7th May, 1992, as to the nature of this document.

    17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I --

    18 JUDGE JAN: Has this document been shown to be in the

    19 handwriting of Zejnil Delalic?

    20 MR. NIEMANN: It has not been established as yet. It was a

    21 document that was seized at his premises, though. The

    22 document, your Honours, speaks for itself, and it

    23 relates to the relevant period of time. It was located

    24 at the premises of the accused Zejnil Delalic. We have

    25 already heard evidence of the processes by which it was

  32. 1 obtained, through the officers of the Austrian police.

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not sure. I do not remember any

    3 evidence of this having been recovered anywhere.

    4 JUDGE JAN: Was this document addressed to the General?

    5 MR. NIEMANN: No.

    6 JUDGE JAN: Did he see it ever before?

    7 MR. NIEMANN: No.

    8 JUDGE JAN: What are you going to ask him about it?

    9 MR. NIEMANN: I am going to ask him whether this document was

    10 consistent with the processes at the time for the

    11 acquisition of weapons.

    12 JUDGE JAN: That is a matter for argument. You have shown

    13 him the document of 2nd May and asked for his opinion.

    14 He has not received this document. You have not shown

    15 it was in the handwriting of the accused.

    16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not sure that he is introducing it

    17 for that purpose at this moment.

    18 MR. NIEMANN: I am not attempting to establish that it was

    19 written by the accused. There are two issues here, your

    20 Honour; there is the issue of admissibility, and there

    21 is the issue of relevance.

    22 JUDGE JAN: You are asking him whether this document is

    23 consistent with his duties under the order of 2nd May.

    24 That is a question of opinion.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: No, I am not. I am asking him whether this

  33. 1 document is consistent with the processes that were in

    2 operation in terms of the acquisition of weapons, which

    3 he has already attested to.

    4 MR. MORAN: I would object that he is being asked to testify

    5 from a document which is not in evidence at all. It has

    6 been identified, but nobody has ever moved to admit it.

    7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not sure you start speaking to a

    8 document until he has said anything about it. He has

    9 not said anything. He will show it to him, if he can

    10 say anything and you take it for its relevance, that is

    11 all.

    12 JUDGE JAN: You really ask him for the construction of the

    13 document, you really ask him that. Consistent with his

    14 duties.

    15 MR. NIEMANN: I am merely asking whether this is a document

    16 consistent with what was happening at the time.

    17 JUDGE JAN: It is a construction of the document anyway.

    18 MR. NIEMANN: If I am to establish relevance, your Honour.

    19 Otherwise I am in a catch-22. I am in a situation where

    20 I am not allowed to show its relevance and I am not

    21 allowed to admit.

    22 JUDGE JAN: I am just asking the nature of the questions you

    23 are putting to him. This, whether this document is

    24 consistent. You are asking him really to construct this

    25 document.

  34. 1 MR. NIEMANN: I am not asking him to construct it. I am

    2 asking whether it is consistent with the sort of

    3 processes in operation at the time.

    4 JUDGE JAN: To do that, you will have to raise construction

    5 of the document.

    6 MR. NIEMANN: That is not impermissible when it comes to the

    7 establishment of relevance. If I try to tender it now

    8 I am confronted with the issue of relevance, I assume,

    9 unless there is no objection. If there is no objection

    10 I will tender it. So if it is admitted into evidence

    11 I will move on. That is all I am seeking to do.

    12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: With all due respect to my learned friend,

    13 the issue of reliability has not been established in

    14 this document. We have been through about the seizure,

    15 the nature, the provenance of these documents has not

    16 been proven, the authenticity has not been proven.

    17 Those, in my submission, are the threshold questions to

    18 admissibility. That must be proven first.

    19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can proceed. It is only

    20 whether in fact you got it from anywhere, if that is the

    21 case how reliable might be relevant.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: General, have you had an opportunity to read

    23 that document?

    24 A. Yes, I have read it.

    25 Q. And do you understand what the nature of the document

  35. 1 is? What do you understand it relates to, from your

    2 reading of it?

    3 A. If you mean the contents, yes, it is.

    4 Q. And what is your understanding of what the document

    5 relates to?

    6 A. The only thing I could do is to read it aloud to the

    7 Tribunal. It simply relates to what is written in it.

    8 Q. I do not want you to read it out, if you would not

    9 mind. I would rather you just tell me what you

    10 understand, what the contents of the document mean to

    11 you?

    12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, this is getting kind of strange.

    13 He is being asked, now, to say what he thinks an

    14 unauthenticated document, with no proof as to where it

    15 came from, whether it is authentic or not, whether it

    16 was written by Zejnil Delalic or not, or who it was

    17 written by. He is now being asked to give this Tribunal

    18 his opinion about what it might mean. How can that be

    19 helpful, how can it be relevant? I object.

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I did not understand it to be that.

    21 I believe he is trying to bring it to fall within the

    22 pattern. If he does then he might go for it; if it does

    23 not then I fear it might not be easy to establish then

    24 he cannot bring it in. It is the pattern of the

    25 procedure for those working within a particular

  36. 1 formula. This is what he is trying to establish. He is

    2 trying to jump before he gets to -- until he attempts to

    3 link it with anybody. I do not know whether he can do

    4 so.

    5 MR. ACKERMAN: I am in total agreement with your Honour.

    6 Those would be the steps, but they are not the ones

    7 being taken. The General has just said the only way he

    8 can explain it to you is to read it to you because it

    9 only has meaning to him in the language it contains,

    10 that it has no other meaning to him. I think he has

    11 already said, "I cannot draw any conclusions about this,

    12 beyond what it says on its face", and on its face, as

    13 far as we understand now, it has no authenticity. So

    14 I cannot imagine that it has any value.

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: At the moment, the witness has answered

    16 nothing to do with it, therefore, so I think that --

    17 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, your Honour. There is one other

    18 problem, also. This witness is getting very close to

    19 testifying as an expert witness. He has never been

    20 designated as such. I understand by the very nature of

    21 his testimony he is going to call upon his expertise as

    22 a military officer, but when you start asking questions,

    23 "what is your opinion about this" ...

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you are getting it a bit too

    25 awkward. When a General testifies about formations I do

  37. 1 not know what else you can say, whether you designate

    2 him as an expert or not, a General is competent to

    3 disclose things about the formation of any army.

    4 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, yes.

    5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So he is competent to do so.

    6 MR. MORAN: We are not contesting his competency, we are

    7 contesting his designation as an expert under the order

    8 of the Tribunal.

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think that will matter. Go

    10 on.

    11 MR. NIEMANN: Again, looking at that document, are you able,

    12 or are you not in a position to say whether it is

    13 consistent with your understanding of the way procedures

    14 were in operation in the very early part of 1992.

    15 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I object, your Honour. That is the previous

    16 question that was answered: "The only thing I can do is

    17 read it aloud to the Tribunal". It simply relates to

    18 what is in it. The same question has been answered by

    19 this witness, your Honour.

    20 MR. NIEMANN: I have asked him to explain, your Honour.

    21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that your answer? Let us hear your

    22 answer. If you are unable to fit it into any pattern,

    23 then there it ends.

    24 A. In the period from which this document is dated, I had

    25 no superiority from any kinds of units on the territory

  38. 1 of the Konjic municipality. The only thing I can say

    2 about this document is what it appears to me, according

    3 to its form and its contents.

    4 MR. NIEMANN: And can you tell us what it appears to you,

    5 according to its form and contents?

    6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I renew my objection, your Honour. He is

    7 asking the witness to say what the document says. He is

    8 asking him to speculate on what it might mean.

    9 MR. NIEMANN: It is not a question of speculation. The

    10 witness has already attested to the procedures in

    11 operation at the time in relation to the contents of

    12 what this document relates to. I mean, what the Defence

    13 are trying to do is they are trying to prevent any

    14 evidence whatsoever coming out on these documents so

    15 that your Honours are totally left in the dark about

    16 what they contain. Then when the Prosecution seeks to

    17 tender them they are going to jump up and immediately

    18 say, "they are not relevant, your Honours have heard no

    19 evidence as to relevance. " That is what they are trying

    20 to achieve. That is why they are objecting now to any

    21 discussion on it. In my submission that is an

    22 impermissible way to deal with it. The witnesses are

    23 entitled to give evidence which goes to the relevance of

    24 the document. That relevance is to be taken into

    25 consideration when we seek to tender it and admit it as

  39. 1 an exhibit.

    2 We are not trying to seek to admit as an exhibit

    3 through this witness. This is not the witness through

    4 which this document will be tendered. It is entirely

    5 permissible for the witness to speak to the document. It

    6 is marked for identification. When it comes to be

    7 tendered, your Honours, it is not taking only into

    8 consideration what has happened at that moment but

    9 everything that has happened prior, in relation to that

    10 document.

    11 If this is ruled an improper procedure, then what

    12 the Defence can successfully do is simply sit there and

    13 object to any discussion about a document, and then at

    14 the end of the day say that your Honours must not accept

    15 it because it is not relevant. Truly, in that position

    16 your Honours would have not have heard any evidence as

    17 to its relevance. The only thing that you could then

    18 hear is evidence from me at the bar table trying to

    19 explain to you why it is relevant.

    20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, let me say first of all that

    21 I resent the implication that there is an obstructionist

    22 conspiracy going on over on this side of the room.

    23 There is not. What each of us over here is doing is

    24 what we are required ethically to do, and that is to try

    25 to make certain that the Rules of Evidence are followed

  40. 1 in the presentation of evidence in a criminal case

    2 against persons accused of very serious matters. That

    3 is all we are doing, that is all we have ever done and

    4 that is all we will ever do. If that turns out to be

    5 obstructionist that is because of the Rules of Evidence,

    6 not because of any tactics we are taking.

    7 MR. NIEMANN: It may be the Rules of Evidence of the United

    8 States, but it is not the Rules of Evidence that have

    9 been applied in numerous proceedings before this

    10 Chamber. In my submission, your Honour, it is

    11 appropriate that we refer to the Rules of Evidence of

    12 this Chamber when dealing and addressing this question.

    13 One of the primary bases upon which evidence is admitted

    14 is relevance. It is 11.30, your Honours.

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Tribunal will rise and then come

    16 back at 12 o'clock.

    17 (11.30 am)

    18 (Short break)

    19 (12.00 pm)

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Take your seat, please.

    21 Kindly remind him that he is still on his oath.

    22 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, I remind you that you are still under

    23 oath.

    24 MR. NIEMANN: General Pasalic, before the break we were

    25 looking at document number 121. I had not received an

  41. 1 answer from you in relation to the question that I put

    2 before the objection was raised; and perhaps I might ask

    3 that question again. Are you able to say, yes or no,

    4 whether or not this document is consistent with your

    5 understanding of how matters were proceeding at that

    6 particular time, with respect to the acquisition of

    7 equipment and arms.

    8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I object. This witness has

    9 stated he was not in Konjic municipality on the date

    10 indicated on this document.

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The question is not limited to that

    12 municipality. It is a pattern.

    13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honours have not ruled on the objection

    14 before the break.

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, I do not rule on what you are

    16 saying now. I am only saying if he asks him a question

    17 which shows a pattern, it need not be confined to that

    18 municipality. If he can answer let him answer.

    19 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, under the rulings of this

    20 Tribunal we are asking this witness to look at a

    21 document which is not admitted into this evidence, which

    22 is contrary to our Rules and the ruling of this

    23 Chamber.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is not contrary to our rules. Let

    25 him please answer.

  42. 1 Yes, can you answer the question.

    2 MR. NIEMANN: General, can you answer the question, please?

    3 A. Yes, I can answer. I can say that there were similar,

    4 or correspondence done in this way, and work done in

    5 this way.

    6 Q. Thank you. Perhaps that document might be handed back

    7 to the Registrar. I would ask you to look at the next

    8 document, if you will. Might a copy be given to their

    9 Honours and to the Defence as well? It is document

    10 122. Can the original of that exhibit be taken out? I

    11 have a copy here for their Honours, and for ...

    12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I am a bit confused about

    13 numbers. Are 121 and 122 court exhibit numbers, or do

    14 those refer to something else, your Honours?

    15 MR. NIEMANN: They are court exhibit numbers, your Honour.

    16 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.

    17 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps before I just take you to that

    18 document, General, can you tell me: were you aware of

    19 the way that documents were brought into Bosnia at that

    20 time, during the early part of 1992, in May/June of

    21 1992? How were they actually brought? That is

    22 documents others than those that were seized from the

    23 opposition, or seized from JNA warehouses, and the

    24 like. How were they brought into the theatre of the

    25 conflict? Are you aware of that?

  43. 1 A. I do not understand the question. You speak about the

    2 documents that were brought in or something else,

    3 because you asked me about how were these documents

    4 brought in, as far as I could understand.

    5 Q. I do apologise. That was a mistake on my part. I said

    6 before I would take you to the document. I wanted to

    7 ask you a question about the movement of weapons and

    8 equipment for the army of -- the emerging army of

    9 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The equipment that was acquired

    10 from outside of the former Yugoslavia, how was that

    11 brought into the theatre of the conflict, as opposed to

    12 documents that were seized in Bosnia? Are you aware of

    13 that?

    14 A. I am sorry, but you are speaking about the -- how were

    15 the, was the equipment brought in, and the documents

    16 that were seized. I can only say how I , as a Commander

    17 of the Battalion Brigade, and Corps, how I acquired the

    18 armament, and all the armament that was acquired for the

    19 whole Bosnia-Herzegovina, it is not what was within my

    20 competence. I can only tell you how I worked. I bought

    21 for the money that I had and the money was given as a

    22 donation, and I would buy rifles and other types of

    23 armaments, mostly lighter weapons; and it bought it for

    24 my men. I bought it from the civilians who dealt in the

    25 buying of arms and I also bought it from enemy soldiers

  44. 1 who would engage in such activities. I simply paid for

    2 that armament, and all the rest of our armament was

    3 acquired as war went on. Some of the armament was made

    4 by ourselves in our makeshift workshops. I can only

    5 speak about how I did it.

    6 Q. In your experience, did you ever become aware of weapons

    7 being purchased outside of the former Yugoslavia, for

    8 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    9 A. When you receive some kind of weapons if it came from

    10 outside the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina you probably

    11 conclude to the fact that it has been purchased

    12 somewhere. Bosnia-Herzegovina would not have been able

    13 to defend itself without receiving weapons; and I do not

    14 know how it did. I can only say how I got some weapons

    15 from my superior commands. They would tell me on such

    16 and such a date you would receive weapons and they would

    17 say go, take, you would receive it from such and such a

    18 person, and so on.

    19 Q. If weapons and goods, it does not have to be only

    20 weapons, but if weapons and goods were to be brought

    21 into the theatre of operation, and when I speak of the

    22 theatre of operation, I am speaking in general terms in

    23 relation to Mostar, Konjic, right down to perhaps

    24 Bradina, in all those positions in that area, where the

    25 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was operational, if arms were

  45. 1 to be brought in by road, are you familiar, having

    2 regard to the conditions prevailing at the time, namely

    3 May or June of 1992, are you able to say how those --

    4 that equipment, whether the arms or other equipment,

    5 would have been brought into that particular area, by

    6 what route?

    7 A. The aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina was done by the

    8 former JNA, and we had to turn ourselves to the

    9 territory where there were no soldiers who were our

    10 aggressors. That was towards the west. So from the

    11 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina the Croatian Defence

    12 Council, we -- that is how we received our weapons, and

    13 food. There were various routes, various roads, that

    14 entered into Mostar coming from either Ploce or Listica,

    15 or Prozor. There are 10 or 15 roads leading into

    16 Mostar. What arrives via what route, it is difficult to

    17 say, but that is the general direction where most of it

    18 came.

    19 Q. And at that time, the forces of Croatia in

    20 Bosnia-Herzegovina in particular were allies of the

    21 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, is that true?

    22 A. If by that you mean the forces of the HVO, the Croatian

    23 Defence Council was a military component recognised

    24 under the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was on

    25 equal terms, just as the Territorial Defence, and then

  46. 1 the BiH army. They were the two components. We worked

    2 together and we fought together against the forces of

    3 the aggressors, of the former JNA and the newly formed

    4 Serb army.

    5 Q. Thank you, General. Would you look, please, at a

    6 document marked Exhibit 122 for me, please.

    7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I have to object, your Honour. This is a

    8 hand-written note. There is no date. There is no

    9 indication this document makes any reference to the

    10 relevant period of these proceedings.

    11 MR. NIEMANN: Well, your Honours, I think that in relation to

    12 that objection this document from a reading of it

    13 provides an indication of the appropriate date. I say that

    14 for the following reason: your Honours, we know that the

    15 acquisition of arms and equipment at the very early

    16 period of time was a matter of high priority for the

    17 army of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we

    18 also know at that stage that there was a militarial

    19 licence, if I might call it that, between the army of

    20 the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO. In my

    21 submission, even though the document itself, it is true,

    22 does not express a date, it itself indicates the

    23 relevance period of time having regard to what we know

    24 already on the evidence, on the record, of what was

    25 happening on the ground at that particular time.

  47. 1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is very difficult to reconcile --

    2 actually, to whom is it addressed? And for what

    3 purpose?

    4 MR. NIEMANN: It appears, your Honours, to be addressed to

    5 Mr. Zebic, a General by the name of Salman. It relates

    6 to the very questions I have just been speaking to with

    7 the witness.

    8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, we are into the very problem of

    9 the authenticity and reliability, which was our

    10 objection before the break. Until that is established,

    11 the unreasonable doubt, as your Honours have ruled it

    12 must be. Our submission is that these documents --

    13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Zejnil will be coming in to tell us

    14 what it is all about, because there might be some

    15 difficulty.

    16 MR. NIEMANN: There may well indeed. I am not seeking to

    17 tender it at the stage. I am merely asking questions

    18 about this document, the cumulative effect of which

    19 I will ultimately argue goes to the question of its

    20 admissibility. This objection may well be appropriate

    21 if I was seeking to have the document accepted into

    22 evidence at this point in time. I am not.

    23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can proceed with your question.

    24 MR. NIEMANN: General, would you please -- have you managed

    25 to read through the document you were just shown, that

  48. 1 is Exhibit 122?

    2 A. Yes, I have read it.

    3 Q. And are you able to express a view, yes or no, whether

    4 it appears to be consistent with your understanding of

    5 how goods for military purposes were brought through to

    6 the theatre of military operations in the early part of

    7 1992?

    8 A. I am a soldier, and officer of the Army of the

    9 Federation at that time, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

    10 and what I understand are military documents. The only

    11 thing that I can say about this document is just as much

    12 as I could say with the previous document, hand-written,

    13 and I can only speak on the basis of the contents.

    14 Whether the contents reflect the situation on the ground

    15 is something that I have already said. The equipment

    16 and the weapons were purchased in the best way we could

    17 purchase it, and this is a way in which it was -- it was

    18 sometimes done.

    19 Q. Thank you. Might that document be returned, please?

    20 Would you now -- might the witness be shown document,

    21 exhibit 123?

    22 General Pasalic, that is a two page document that

    23 you have been shown there. Could you kindly read

    24 through it, please, page 1, and then over on to the

    25 second page?

  49. 1 A. I have had a look at it.

    2 Q. Thank you. General, do you notice that it is dated at

    3 the top of the page --

    4 MR. ACKERMAN: Could we at least wait until we have had an

    5 opportunity to look at it before any substantive

    6 questions are asked about it?

    7 MR. NIEMANN: General, do you notice at the top of the

    8 document that it is dated? Do you see a date that

    9 appears there?

    10 A. Yes, I can see a date.

    11 Q. And on the second page of the document there is a list

    12 of materials mentioned. Do you see that?

    13 A. Yes, I can.

    14 Q. Do you recognise what is being described there?

    15 A. On the second page?

    16 Q. Yes.

    17 A. Yes. Yes. I know what is written in it. I -- yes,

    18 that is a matter I do understand.

    19 Q. And is that military equipment that is being referred to

    20 there?

    21 A. Yes, it is.

    22 Q. And from your knowledge of what was happening in the

    23 theatre at that particular point in time, was this the

    24 sort of equipment that was sought to be acquired by the

    25 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

  50. 1 A. I do not know who acquired that equipment, and for whom,

    2 but this is military equipment.

    3 Q. And do you know whether or not the army of the

    4 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina was fully equipped and

    5 therefore not in need of any of this material mentioned,

    6 or was this the sort of material that the army was

    7 seeking to acquire at that particular time?

    8 A. I ask you, I am not here, please, as a witness who is

    9 competent for the army. What I can say is -- as a

    10 witness of what happened in 1992 as a Commander of

    11 Brigade Battalion and a Corp. This equipment is

    12 military equipment and I also needed such type of

    13 equipment at that time.

    14 Q. So it was not as though there was a surplus of these

    15 various types of rocket launchers?

    16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has explained that he was not a

    17 general witness for that type of answer, so if he gives

    18 you an answer which fits what was possible, I suppose

    19 that is all he can say.

    20 MR. NIEMANN: I understand your Honour. I will not pursue

    21 that matter.

    22 General, just looking at this particular document,

    23 and being aware of the prevailing conditions in terms of

    24 how the emerging army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was

    25 operating at that time, and from your knowledge of that,

  51. 1 is this document consistent with the procedures that

    2 were in place in some areas in relation to the acquiring

    3 of equipment, military equipment?

    4 A. In a certain way, it is.

    5 Q. Thank you. Might that document be returned?

    6 Now, to your knowledge, General, are you aware

    7 whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic continued to perform the role

    8 of co-ordinator for all of the period of time that you

    9 knew he was there or did, so far as you know, his role

    10 change subsequently, during the course of 1992?

    11 A. I know that Zejnil Delalic, when I met him, had the role

    12 of the co-ordinator. I cannot tell you the date from

    13 when to when, but I knew Zejnil Delalic as a person to

    14 whom I could contact when in matters concerning the

    15 fighting against the aggressor. Later on, he was linked

    16 with a formation subsequently formed, which was a

    17 tactical group. When he was in charge of the tactical

    18 group, I do not know the exact date.

    19 Q. And what do you know of the establishment of the

    20 tactical group? What was the purpose of its

    21 establishment? Do you know?

    22 A. Do you mean the tactical group as a general term, or the

    23 specific tactical group?

    24 Q. I think at the moment I will ask you about this

    25 particular tactical group. What was it formed for?

  52. 1 A. Tactical group on the territory of the municipality of

    2 Konjic, Jablanica, Prozor and Vakuf was established in

    3 order to organise the resistance against the aggressor,

    4 that is the Serb and Montenegro aggressor, which was the

    5 remains of the former JNA and the Serb army.

    6 Q. What was the military advantage, if any, of establishing

    7 a tactical group? In other words, why was a tactical

    8 group established? Do you know?

    9 A. I can answer in a general way. Tactical groups are

    10 transitional formations, temporary formations whereby

    11 there you would form a group, a certain number of units,

    12 in order for those units to perform a particular task.

    13 Once the task has been accomplished the tactical group

    14 has no need to continue to exist. In military terms a

    15 tactical group is an organised group of units with a

    16 very specific task. Once the task is completed it stops

    17 existing.

    18 Q. What is the advantages of forming a tactical group?

    19 A. The person who forms a tactical group has a reason to do

    20 that, and he specifies the tasks of that tactical

    21 group. If it was formed in this case to engage in

    22 defensive operations for the purpose of protection from

    23 aggression, then that is its task, and duty to carry out

    24 that task.

    25 Q. Now the tactical group that formed in the -- that was

  53. 1 formed and centred on the municipality of Konjic, do you

    2 know what military objective there was in the

    3 establishment of this particular tactical group?

    4 A. I think -- I do not know what the specific goal was, but

    5 I think that it was for us to organise ourselves in the

    6 struggle against the aggressor.

    7 Q. Would it have assisted in the strengthening and

    8 co-ordinating of the military facility that was available

    9 to the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    10 A. A tactical group is a military formation of a temporary

    11 nature. Co-ordination is an activity that is engaged

    12 in. A tactical group as a provisional military

    13 formation cannot engage in defensive operations without

    14 the necessary resources. It must have the manpower, the

    15 equipment, armaments and material. You have to feed

    16 those people, you have to clothe them, you have to equip

    17 them to be able to fight the aggressor.

    18 Q. Was there a similar such concept of tactical group known

    19 of in the former structure of the JNA?

    20 A. At the time I was serving in the former army, I did not

    21 participate in any war, but in our tactical tasks and

    22 exercises we reviewed and used such terms, the names of

    23 such military formations, in designing our tactical

    24 tasks and engaging in war games.

    25 Q. Are you aware of the category and type of authority,

  54. 1 duties and responsibilities that a Commander of a

    2 tactical group would have?

    3 A. In my area of responsibility, I had tactical groups that

    4 I formed, and to which I assigned specific tasks. I was

    5 familiar with the Konjic tactical group, in as much as

    6 I knew that it existed and I co-ordinated with it to the

    7 extent to which I co-ordinated with the people who held

    8 important positions, such as Zejnil Delalic and other

    9 leaders and commanders of units.

    10 Q. And do you know who appointed Zejnil Delalic as the

    11 Commander of the Tactical Group 1?

    12 A. Probably the chief of staff of the Supreme Command,

    13 because it was subordinated to the Supreme Command.

    14 Q. And might the witness be shown, please, Exhibit 71?

    15 Again, I have a copy of this exhibit here. It is also

    16 referred to as document 118.

    17 General, would you please read through that

    18 document, please? Not aloud, just to yourself.

    19 A. I have looked at it.

    20 Q. Thank you. General, do you see the stamp that appears

    21 at the foot of that document?

    22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, can I again ask that Mr. Niemann

    23 wait until the Defence have received their copies of

    24 it?

    25 MR. NIEMANN: I am sorry.

  55. 1 MR. ACKERMAN: I am sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Niemann.

    2 MR. NIEMANN: I am sorry.

    3 General, do you see on the foot of Exhibit 71 a

    4 stamp that appears there?

    5 A. I do.

    6 Q. Is that familiar to you, that stamp?

    7 A. It is the stamp of the Republic of Bosnia and

    8 Herzegovina Ministry of Defence, headquarters of

    9 Territorial Defence, Sarajevo.

    10 Q. Do you see beside that a signature that appears, under a

    11 name that is given?

    12 A. I do, though it is not very clear. The copy is not a

    13 good one.

    14 Q. If you cannot read it then let me know, but if you can

    15 read it are you able to say the designation of the

    16 person that signed it? In other words, are you able to

    17 give the title, the position of the person that signed

    18 it, from your copy?

    19 A. It says for the main staff of the armed forces, signed

    20 by Mr. Halilovic. That is what is stated in the

    21 document.

    22 Q. You notice that at the top it is dated, the 11th July,

    23 1992?

    24 A. Yes, that is what it says.

    25 Q. Does this appear to be a document consistent with the

  56. 1 type that was employed at the time in relation to the

    2 appointment of staff in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    3 A. The document by its form and content is similar to the

    4 documents that we used, and as for the validity of the

    5 document, I am not competent to say.

    6 Q. Thank you. Might that exhibit be returned to the

    7 Registrar as well?

    8 Now, General, you mentioned earlier in your

    9 evidence that you received an instruction from the chief

    10 of the -- the chief of staff, Sefer Halilovic, in

    11 relation to the formation of the 4th Corp. Do you

    12 recall saying that?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Did the formation of this Corps have any impact, so far

    15 as you are aware, on the operations that were being

    16 conducted by Mr. Delalic?

    17 A. I received a written document for the formation of the

    18 Corps, dated 17th November, 1992, from the chief of staff

    19 of the army, Sefer Halilovic. This document indicates

    20 who will be the Commander and who will be chief of

    21 staff, and it orders the formation; and I was told that

    22 within that Corps, which would be called the 4th Corps,

    23 that it would comprise the units of Territorial Defence,

    24 that is of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the

    25 territory of the municipality, then the municipality of

  57. 1 Mostar, Konjic, Jablanica and units formed in the

    2 territory of the municipality of Mostar, from Gacko,

    3 Capljina and Stolac. I was given a list of the units

    4 that would become part of that Corp. Precisely what

    5 type of operations Zejnil Delalic performed with units

    6 in Konjic I cannot say exactly, but I think that the

    7 formation of the Corps did not upset the defensive

    8 operations, against the aggressor in that area.

    9 Q. Was there a relationship in terms of military structure

    10 then created between you and Zejnil Delalic as a

    11 consequence of your order from Sefer Halilovic to

    12 establish the 4th Corps?

    13 A. When I received the order to form the 4th Corps, as I

    14 have already said, this entails a process, and in the

    15 subsequent period and days that followed I toured the

    16 units. I visited also the units in the territory of the

    17 Konjic municipality. In that period from November 17th,

    18 for the next seven days, Zejnil Delalic had left the

    19 territory of Konjic municipality in, for us, an unknown

    20 direction at that time. I did not meet with Mr. Delalic

    21 after that.

    22 Q. Prior to the establishment of the 4th Corps, was Zejnil

    23 Delalic your subordinate?

    24 A. No.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: After the establishment of the 4th Corps did

  58. 1 Zejnil Delalic become subordinate to you.

    2 JUDGE JAN: He answered that question, he said he had left.

    3 MR. NIEMANN: I do not think he left immediately, your

    4 Honour. I think there was a few days.

    5 After you established the 4th Corps, and perhaps

    6 only for a very short time, was Zejnil Delalic

    7 subordinate to you?

    8 A. I was told in the order that my Corps would include units

    9 which were then, until then, part of the Tactical Group

    10 1 in Konjic, which means that those units became a part

    11 of the 4th Corp. As I did not meet with Zejnil again in

    12 person, he was a member of the army of

    13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, as he was command of the tactical

    14 group he was directly subordinate to the command, the

    15 Supreme Command and the chief of staff of the Supreme

    16 Command, Sefer Halilovic, until any future appointment.

    17 The units in Konjic, Parasovic Jablanica and Pazor were

    18 subordinate to me, these units and their commanders and

    19 men.

    20 Q. Is it correct to say that Zejnil Delalic, at no stage,

    21 was ever subordinate to you?

    22 A. I never had superiority over Mr. Delalic. He was linked

    23 to higher levels of authority. He did not belong to my

    24 formation and control and command, chain of control and

    25 command.

  59. 1 Q. Now, prior to the establishment of the 4th Corps and in

    2 the early parts of 1992, April, May, June, July, during

    3 that period, did soldiers in the then emerging army of

    4 Bosnia-Herzegovina hold rank?

    5 A. No, we did not have ranks at the time. We only had

    6 functions, posts, from the soldier, to the leader,

    7 Commander, and some other positions. Only later in 1994

    8 did we introduce ranks.

    9 Q. You may not know the answer to this: but did -- were

    10 there some people operating in the theatre of war

    11 centred around Konjic and Mostar who had de facto

    12 authority at that time?

    13 A. In the period May, June, until the formation of the

    14 Corps, in the territory of Konjic municipality there were

    15 people with certain authorisation, such as the Commander

    16 of the tactical groups, Commanders of Brigades,

    17 Commanders of Battalions. It did not counter members of

    18 the staff of the Supreme Command. I met with Mr. Divjak,

    19 who was at the time a member of the staff of the Supreme

    20 Command, Vehbija Karic and other officers who were

    21 carrying out their tasks. I do not know exactly what

    22 those tasks were. Meeting with them I discussed only

    23 those obligations and tasks that related to me as the

    24 Commander of the Battalion and the Brigade at the time.

    25 Q. Now, still speaking about this period of time, were

  60. 1 there formal chains of commands that existed and were

    2 they followed, so far as you know?

    3 A. The system of control and command in the Territorial

    4 Defence and later in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    5 existed. There was the staff of the Supreme Command and

    6 subordinated units. I, as Commander of the Battalion

    7 and later of the Brigade, was directly subordinated to

    8 the chief of staff of the Supreme Command Sefer

    9 Halilovic. Then all the commanders and leaders of

    10 subordinated units were responsible to me, and then they

    11 had their own chain of control and command. That is how

    12 it was in that period.

    13 Q. Again, in that period, did structures exist for taking

    14 disciplinary actions against members of the

    15 Bosnia-Herzegovina army who had violated military rules

    16 or codes of conduct?

    17 A. As the Battalion and Brigade Commander I was responsible

    18 for any disciplinary errors and offences; whatever

    19 happened in my unit, as the Commander it was my duty to

    20 deal with it. As for higher levels, we did not have any

    21 military Tribunals at the time, nor any superior bodies

    22 that were responsible for discipline. But this was

    23 ensured through the chain of control and command.

    24 Q. If disciplinary action was to be taken against members

    25 of the Bosnia-Herzegovina army, at that time and even

  61. 1 after the establishment of the 4th Corps, were there any

    2 Tribunals available to hear these matters?

    3 A. The state of Bosnia-Herzegovina adopted certain

    4 legislation from the former Bosnia Herzegovina when it

    5 was a Republic of the former Yugoslavia. Within the

    6 Territorial Defence and the BiH army, in the beginning,

    7 we did not have a complete system, nor any judicial

    8 mechanisms, but we relied on district military

    9 Prosecutor's offices and military courts, which existed

    10 in the territory of a district. In concrete terms,

    11 Mostar had a military Prosecutor, and a court. And both

    12 the units of the BiH army and the HVO relied on them.

    13 But they dealt only with serious criminal offences,

    14 whereas disciplinary action was dealt with within the

    15 commands of units.

    16 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. Now, I would like to ask you, if

    17 you would, to look at a video, Exhibit 114. I assume

    18 that that has been taken to the booth? It has not

    19 been.

    20 Your Honours, I will attend to that after lunch

    21 and come back to that, rather than delay proceedings

    22 now.

    23 General, how were soldiers and officers,

    24 particularly senior officers, held accountable by the

    25 Supreme Command? Was that in the same way as you have

  62. 1 just described, or was there a different structure to

    2 deal with senior officers, at the time?

    3 A. I do not understand the question. Did senior officers

    4 -- were officers accountable in a different way than

    5 the others? We did not have ranks. We introduced ranks

    6 at the end of '93, beginning of '94. But members of the

    7 HVO and of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were

    8 accountable according to their functions, soldier

    9 according to his, a leader according to his and a

    10 Commander according to his. Only later did we issue

    11 rules of conduct for the armed forces of

    12 Bosnia-Herzegovina which specified responsibilities

    13 according to functions, and all officers, once they were

    14 given ranks, were accountable according to those rules

    15 of conduct.

    16 Q. General, during the period of 1992, and if it varied you

    17 may say so, but if it was the same, could you tell us

    18 who had control over the military police?

    19 A. I did not quite understand the question? Was it at the

    20 beginning of 1992.

    21 Q. Perhaps I will break up the question. In the beginning

    22 of 1992, in April, May, June, July, during that period,

    23 who exercised control over the military police? Are you

    24 able to say?

    25 A. As Battalion Commander from 13th May to 15th July did

  63. 1 not have any military police within any formation. It

    2 had a protective platoon which guarded the command and

    3 carried out those duties, with the formation of the

    4 Brigade in July 1992, I was authorised to form a police

    5 platoon, and I had such a platoon. With the formation

    6 of the Corps, I formed a Military Police Battalion, and

    7 I was in command of that Military Police Battalion as

    8 the Corps Commander, and in the Brigade, the military

    9 police platoon was accountable to me as the Brigade

    10 Commander.

    11 Q. Are you aware of what the position was with respect to

    12 military police in the tactical groups?

    13 A. I must repeat what I said. The tactical groups are

    14 provisional formations, which include certain brigades,

    15 battalions and other units. If that Brigade has its own

    16 military police within its formation then that military

    17 police was subordinated to the Brigade Commander, and

    18 the Unit Commanders within the tactical group are

    19 subordinated to their Commander. I do not know whether

    20 the tactical group had a special police unit which was

    21 directly accountable to the Commander of the tactical

    22 group.

    23 Q. Now, during the period 1992, firstly in the period when

    24 the Brigade was established, did you ever have occasion

    25 to carry out disciplinary action against any soldiers

  64. 1 under your command?

    2 A. As Battalion and Brigade Commander, I did have certain

    3 disciplinary errors or offences, and I enforced certain

    4 sanctions. But as a typical example, it was only after

    5 the formation of the Corps, in view of the number of

    6 units, did this problem arise, and did we realise that

    7 we had to deal with it through higher judicial

    8 institutions and in accordance with the law.

    9 Q. So far as you are aware, with respect to Commanders of

    10 the tactical groups, did they have a similar

    11 responsibility, albeit that they were only established

    12 for a short period of time, to deal with matters of

    13 discipline in a similar way that you had, as Brigade

    14 Commander?

    15 A. Any Unit Commander, be it a Battalion, a Brigade or a

    16 tactical group, must have their duties clearly

    17 specified, and their competencies. I do not know

    18 whether the Commander of the tactical group had a clear

    19 indications as to his responsibilities with respect to

    20 disciplinary measures.

    21 Q. Are you aware of any other persons who would have had

    22 this responsibility, other than the Commander of the

    23 tactical group?

    24 A. Every Commander is -- has responsibility towards his

    25 subordinated units. As the Brigade Commander, I was

  65. 1 competent and had responsibility with respect to my

    2 subordinate units. For my officers, my Commanders, and

    3 my leaders of groups, and for my soldiers. I could not

    4 give you an example, now. I had disciplinary action;

    5 when a soldier does something that is not in accord with

    6 military conduct, then I would ask his Commander to

    7 punish him, to dismiss him from that post, to appoint

    8 him to another post, to call him to task, to caution

    9 him, to criticise him, and the like.

    10 In the interest of better understanding, I must

    11 say that at first, and I am referring specifically to

    12 1992, we did not have time to engage in minor breaches

    13 by soldiers. Operations were quick, the offensives were

    14 fierce, so that it was possible for certain individuals

    15 to commit errors without them being sanctioned. There

    16 was a realistic possibility of this occurring.

    17 MR. NIEMANN: Is that a convenient time?

    18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, Mr. Niemann we will have to stop

    19 here for lunch and come back at 2.30. You will continue

    20 at that time.

    21 (1.00 pm)

    22 (Luncheon adjournment)





    2 (2.30 pm)

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may sit down.

    4 Please remind the witness that he is still on his

    5 oath.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, I remind you that you are still under

    7 oath.

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Niemann, you might continue.

    9 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you.

    10 General, I would like you now, if you would,

    11 please, to look at a video that will be played on the

    12 television screen in front of you. I asked that the

    13 technicians in the booth play two parts of Exhibit 114,

    14 the first part being from the beginning of the video

    15 tape through to minutes 2.41. It is a very short

    16 segment. Also from the part 11.49 seconds through to 16

    17 minutes and 29 seconds. I think those parts have been

    18 -- I also ask when the person speaks on the video it be

    19 translated into the English language by the

    20 interpreters. I ask you watch closely the video when it

    21 is shown to you. At the conclusion of the playing of

    22 the video I will proceed to ask you some questions about

    23 that, please.

    24 Can we start playing Exhibit 114 at 0.0 through to

    25 2.41? Thank you.

  66. 1 THE INTERPRETER: (Interpreting interview on video).

    2 "I find it hardest talking about myself.

    3 I should like to take advantage of this opportunity to

    4 greet the citizens of Jablanica, all of those I know and

    5 those I do not know and my friends in particular who

    6 have been my hosts many times during the war. I would

    7 like to greet Mr. Mujo Kolundzija and my very good friend

    8 in Prozor, Emir, who is now a refugee, and their

    9 families. And all the people that I know. I am glad to

    10 be in Jablanica. I have to say that I am a little

    11 surprised that we have not met before, but better now

    12 than never.

    13 "What should I say about myself? My biography is

    14 short. I was born on 31st August, 1943. My father was

    15 Rasim, my mother, Dulba. In a village called Janjici,

    16 near Zenica, where I completed my elementary education.

    17 In 1959 I applied to the then training school for

    18 non-commissioned officers, now called the Military

    19 Secondary School. I graduated in 1962. I was then

    20 stationed in Nis. After Nis, in Vranje, and then to

    21 Skoplje. I was in Skoplje immediately after the

    22 earthquake there. In 1964 I enrolled at the Military

    23 Academy, which I graduated in 1968. I was stationed in

    24 Zagreb, Croatia, then Serbia then Bosnia-Herzegovina,

    25 many different places.

  67. 1 "I graduated from the High Military Academy in

    2 1979, which I attended from 1977. I was a JNA officer

    3 until the end of March this year. I have had various

    4 duties from the Commander of a radar, observation and

    5 guiding system to chief of staff of the aircraft base

    6 and deputy Commander. My last post was head of the

    7 general military subjects department in the airforce

    8 academy in Rajlovac.

    9 "I am married. I have two children, a 20 year

    10 old son, who is with me together -- who is with me in

    11 the 1st Mostar Brigade. I have a 16 year old daughter.

    12 I am healthy. I weigh 88 kilos and I am 188 centimetres

    13 tall. There is nothing else special to mention. After

    14 your detailed biography" --

    15 MR. NIEMANN: If we could move on to the second part of that

    16 tape I indicated, at 11 minutes and 59 seconds, please.

    17 THE INTERPRETER: (Interpreting interview on video).

    18 "Recently in Konjic some members of the armed

    19 forces were arrested. Among them some very important

    20 people, like Jovan Divljak and Zejnil Delalic.

    21 Just a small correction. It is not Jovan Divljak

    22 but Divjak.

    23 Divjak, I am sorry.

    24 Who else did you mention?

    25 Zejnil Delalic.

  68. 1 The citizens of Jablanica probably know what

    2 happened. I personally was in contact with Konjic even

    3 before this incident, several months before. I knew

    4 Divjak as an officer of the former army. He used to be

    5 Commander of the District Defence Headquarters in

    6 Mostar. He used to come here to Jablanica and Konjic. I

    7 knew him from Sarajevo as an excellent officer who was

    8 an expert in his job.

    9 "I met Zejnil Delalic during the war. I used to

    10 come and pass through Konjic. I would ask for

    11 assistance for what I needed and gave them what I had.

    12 We were in contact and exchanged views. I did not know

    13 him before the war. We had to do what we did in

    14 Konjic. It was not done by the Commander of the

    15 4th Corps, it was these fighters who did it, the people

    16 who feel those problems the most.

    17 "For a long time something that is not good was

    18 happening in Konjic. There were people missing, killed,

    19 there was uncontrolled exchange of detainees, there were

    20 no records on the movement of equipment or weapons ...

    21 and when the people realised that, the morale among the

    22 soldiers had dropped significantly. People began asking,

    23 'who is Zejnil?', 'who is Pasalic?', 'who is Divjak?'.

    24 They began to be suspicious about the people who were

    25 leading them. When this lack of trust affected the

  69. 1 morale of the soldiers on the front-lines the Commanders

    2 noticed. Then we sat down and discussed what should be

    3 done. Zejnil left Konjic. His Pavo, what was his name,

    4 he also left Konjic. We did not want them to leave

    5 Konjic. They know the reasons why they left.

    6 "We established a commission, started an

    7 investigation and found out some horrible things. Dirty

    8 laundry. From incorrect use and sale of food for

    9 soldiers, uniforms, equipment and weapons. About 15 or

    10 so people were killed, and there were no explanations

    11 for their disappearance. There were no reasons. When

    12 you look at all this and take into account the exchange

    13 of prisoners, detainees, these are dishonest, dirty

    14 things which directly affect the success of the struggle

    15 against the Chetniks.

    16 "We started the investigation in Konjic, because

    17 we were interested in Zejnil Delalic and Divjak, or

    18 because we did not start the investigation because we

    19 wanted to denigrate Zejnil. However, I have to mention

    20 that Colonel Divjak is not one of those involved. He

    21 came much later and has nothing to do with the people

    22 who disappeared, the exchange of prisoners and murders.

    23 Yet there are some misdemeanours which harm the image of

    24 a member of the Supreme Command. We thus isolated

    25 Divjak from the Supreme Headquarters of the army staff

  70. 1 and placed him under our control. We will hand him over

    2 to the army staff and leave it to the competent staff to

    3 decide. We will, of course, admit what we have

    4 discovered. The entire case has been concluded and

    5 forwarded to the investigating judge, who is going to

    6 continue with the proceedings and inform the public on

    7 the matter. The trial proceedings will start and

    8 appropriate sentences will be pronounced against the

    9 people who did things which are not deign of the army of

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Muslims, the Croats and actually

    11 the entire population fighting against the Chetniks and

    12 the wronged Yugoslavia."

    13 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you.

    14 General, when did you give this interview?

    15 A. I do not remember the date, but I think it was towards

    16 the end of 1992, somewhere in the second half of

    17 December.

    18 Q. And where did you give the interview?

    19 A. In Jablanica, that was the internal television of the

    20 town of Jablanica.

    21 Q. When you gave the interview had the work of the

    22 committee that you mentioned there already commenced?

    23 A. Yes. The committee had already been operational.

    24 Q. The information that you provided in the interview that

    25 we have just observed, where did you gather that

  71. 1 information from in order to provide it in the

    2 interview?

    3 A. That information -- I was given that information from

    4 the subordinates who worked in Jablanica and Konjic, and

    5 from Commanders of various units who would report to me.

    6 Q. From what you said in the interview, about this

    7 investigation, were matters in a state of confusion in

    8 Konjic, prior to the investigation being carried out?

    9 A. I have to say that the situation in the Neretva River

    10 valley, and the same went for Konjic and Jablanica, the

    11 situation was very difficult, because our system of

    12 defence and the functioning of the civilian authorities

    13 were not completely established. It was very good

    14 ground for rumours. For example, it was Konjic and

    15 Bradina in the village of Repovci, nine young men were

    16 killed from the 7th Battalion and everybody was asking

    17 why those people died, who killed them. We could not

    18 establish whether that was done by enemy units or by

    19 somebody else. There were various stories and reports

    20 that there was not enough food, not enough equipment,

    21 that the equipment was going to the other side and this

    22 was very bad for the morale of the troops.

    23 Q. How did you find out about the matters which prompted

    24 you to establish the commission of inquiry and

    25 investigation, committee of investigation?

  72. 1 A. I did not remember the exact date when it happened.

    2 I received a report stating that the situation in Konjic

    3 was not good. I asked, "why is it not good?", and

    4 I asked the Commanders of the subordinate units and

    5 I was told that Mr. Zejnil Delalic had left Konjic, that

    6 he was not in Konjic any more. Since his role and the

    7 authority he had at the time we asked, "why was that?".

    8 So I went to Rasovici in the Neretva River valley, went

    9 to Ostroviz and Konjic, and I noted and concluded that

    10 within the town of Konjic there are military operations

    11 moving around, and their place was not there and the

    12 situation could -- was such that they had things among

    13 them they were trying to solve, and I said to Sefer

    14 Halilovic the situation was not good. He said, "this is

    15 your area of responsibility, try to establish what was

    16 going on".

    17 So I reported to him that Mr. Zejnil Delalic was

    18 not on the territory of Konjic and there are some other

    19 peoples we could not know where they were, and we were

    20 not able to establish what was going on. The head of

    21 the staff of the Supreme Command confirmed it, and he

    22 said that the Corps Commander, myself as a Corps

    23 Commander, I should establish what was going on as

    24 Sarajevo was under siege. We had to find out the

    25 truth. Then I decided to establish a committee that

  73. 1 would investigate the matter. I knew how to do that

    2 because we used to do that in the former JNA in case we

    3 had an unclear situation. That is how I formed a group

    4 of people who were from my Corps and from the security

    5 centre in Mostar. I told them to go to Konjic and to

    6 investigate there what was going on, to contact the

    7 people and to report back to me. That is how that

    8 committee has started work.

    9 The head of the committee was my assistant for

    10 legal affairs, Muradif Hadzovic. He was a lawyer by

    11 profession. Other members of the committee were people

    12 from the Corps and also from the Brigade and Neretvica

    13 and also some people from the security, and that

    14 committee started work like that and the committee

    15 worked for a month and I received, from the committee,

    16 some reports from time to time. But these reports were

    17 still not complete, and not completely analysed. But

    18 the committee found that there were some matters, so we

    19 say, some matters that to our assessment at the time

    20 were not good. So we reported our staff of our Supreme

    21 Command about that.

    22 Q. Did you determine what you were going to do if you

    23 discovered that there had been any breaches of

    24 discipline or breaches of the law that had been

    25 committed? Had you determined what action you were

  74. 1 going to take?

    2 A. That was five years ago. Time has gone by, and it is

    3 difficult for me to remember the details of what

    4 I decided at the time. But I probably decided to do

    5 what I subsequently did. When the committee has

    6 finished with this investigative part, then we asked the

    7 staff of the Supreme Command to give us the right to

    8 arrest certain people and detain them for a while in

    9 order to be able to investigate the matter. One day,

    10 I think, we had 12 or 13 people which we had to arrest

    11 and keep detained for 30 days or more, and we did it at

    12 Parasovici, at the elementary school, so that these

    13 people could give their opinion about particulars. So

    14 we did it and there were reports that money matters were

    15 not settled. There were -- that there were food and

    16 supplies that were missing, some material and food was

    17 missing, and also we heard that there were cases of

    18 people who died and the causes were unknown. This was

    19 by the people who were in Celebici, the former warehouse

    20 of the JNA. That was in the village of Celebici.

    21 When we discovered that, I asked from the staff of

    22 the Supreme Command that we start criminal

    23 proceedings, because we thought there should be a

    24 criminal investigation about that. We also asked that a

    25 warrant, a search warrant is -- a warrant for the arrest

  75. 1 for some people be issued, for people who left the

    2 territory, and so I started criminal proceedings in

    3 Zejnil Delalic and some other people so that the

    4 criminal proceedings that were started -- we did not

    5 prejudge somebody's guilt, but we wanted to know who did

    6 what, and wanted to make things clear.

    7 Later on, these criminal charges were given to --

    8 over to the court, and the court was competent for the

    9 rest of this matter. People who were in the warehouse

    10 in some kind of detention or prison, or how it is called

    11 now, in the case of the Celebici, "camp" -- I do not

    12 know the details, but I know that people were found

    13 there. I was not in Celebici, I never even wanted to go

    14 there, but I ask the command as a soldier and officer it

    15 was not within my competence. I think I also signed an

    16 order that people should be handed over to the civilian

    17 authorities for further investigation and proceedings.

    18 This is all I can say about that.

    19 Q. Thank you. Now, when the investigation had been

    20 conducted there, in the Konjic area, in particular what

    21 was the investigation focused on? Was it focused on the

    22 civilian side of things or on the military side of

    23 things, or on both?

    24 A. We were focusing on the military aspect, and, in the

    25 meantime, certain parts of it covered also civilian

  76. 1 aspects. You see, at that time the situation was such

    2 that there was no clear-cut division between military

    3 and civilian structures. We were trying to investigate

    4 the military aspect. Sometimes, maybe, we also covered

    5 some civilian structures, but that was only in order to

    6 establish facts of truth that would allow us to take

    7 adequate measures.

    8 I wanted, as a Corps Commander as well, that the

    9 unit -- that where a part of the 4th Corps, especially

    10 those units that were formerly already in the Corps, that

    11 everything would be cleared as to all the events that

    12 might have happened before, in case there were any such

    13 cases.

    14 Q. The former JNA base at Celebici, was that considered a

    15 military establishment or was it a civilian

    16 establishment?

    17 A. I know the Celebici warehouse, because I passed many

    18 times by. It was a JNA warehouse, where the specific

    19 task there were -- with a specific objective. There

    20 were some supplies there and materials there in the

    21 warehouse. But I do not think that later that was a

    22 military establishment. But we were trying to clear

    23 that matter later on, because some people linked it to

    24 the military, because I never saw there was a military

    25 prison there, and I had no data, I had no information --

  77. 1 who were these prisoners -- but we had to find that out.

    2 Q. When you conducted this investigation, do you know

    3 whether or not any evidence had been discovered of

    4 whether or not the persons in positions of authority in

    5 Konjic had carried out disciplinary action against

    6 subordinates for breaches of discipline? Did you

    7 discover any evidence of that?

    8 A. I do not recall that the President of the commission who

    9 was in charge of the investigation reported to me that

    10 anybody had to do any disciplinary measures that were

    11 taken against them.

    12 Q. And in particular did you discover whether or not any

    13 disciplinary action had been taken by the Commander of

    14 the Tactical Group 1?

    15 A. I do not recall that I was told of any disciplinary

    16 action having been taken.

    17 Q. Going back, if I may, to the point in time prior to the

    18 establishment of the -- prior to the establishment of

    19 the 4th Corps, you spoke, in your evidence of the various

    20 responsibilities and so forth of a Tactical Group

    21 Commander. Would such responsibilities, in your

    22 experience, extend to such things as providing

    23 logistical support in relation to food and such other

    24 matters?

    25 A. I said that the Commander of a Tactical Group, that his

  78. 1 responsibilities depend on the assignments given to him

    2 by the person who appointed him. If the Commander of

    3 the supreme staff appointed him, then he probably

    4 indicated what his responsibilities would be. But in my

    5 view, he had to take care of the material needs of the

    6 members of his Tactical Group. He should have, at

    7 least. If this was not clearly specified, or if it was

    8 indicated that somebody else would take care of that,

    9 then that person had to co-ordinate activities with the

    10 Commander of the Tactical Group.

    11 Q. Now, during the period of time when you were located in

    12 Mostar, did you become aware of an operation with the

    13 title "Operation Jud", meaning "south"?

    14 A. I remember that a structure was formed to carry out the

    15 Operation Jud. I think it related to the liberation of

    16 Sarajevo. That was in the summer of 1992. But I did

    17 not take part in that structure, nor in that operation.

    18 But I have heard about it.

    19 Q. I will ask you to look at the document that you are now

    20 shown. This one has not been introduced as yet, so

    21 there is no exhibit number. I would ask that it be

    22 given an exhibit number. Might a copy also be given to

    23 the Defence, and to their Honours?

    24 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked 187, Prosecution

    25 Exhibit 187.

  79. 1 MR. NIEMANN: General, would you look at the document I have

    2 now had handed to you? Could you read through it

    3 please, to yourself, so that you can familiarise

    4 yourself with it?

    5 A. (Not translated).

    6 Q. Having regard to your understanding of the

    7 responsibilities and duties as a Commander of a Tactical

    8 Group as you understood it, are the orders contained in

    9 the documents you are now shown, Exhibit 187, consistent

    10 with what you would expect of a Commander of a Tactical

    11 Group?

    12 A. At that time, I must repeat that I was not responsible

    13 nor competent for Tactical Group 1. If you are asking

    14 me as a military man to interpret this order or this

    15 document, I can do that.

    16 Q. Yes. Well, perhaps tell us the contrary. Is it

    17 inconsistent with what you would expect to be the duties

    18 and responsibilities of a Commander, if that is the

    19 case?

    20 A. I think that it is consistent with the obligations of

    21 the Commander.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. Can I have that marked for

    23 identification, if your Honours please.

    24 I understand, your Honour, that the video that was

    25 shown, Exhibit 114, has already been admitted and

  80. 1 accepted into evidence. I might just check that,

    2 otherwise I will seek to tender it, at this stage.

    3 Perhaps the Registrar might assist me with that?

    4 THE REGISTRAR: It has been admitted into the record.

    5 MR. NIEMANN: Okay.

    6 Again, General, during the period of time when you

    7 were stationed in Mostar, and indeed after the period of

    8 time that you became Commander of the 4th Corps, were you

    9 aware of an operation, military operation, being

    10 conducted in and around the area of Borci?

    11 A. I know that TO units after the army of

    12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the territory of Konjic

    13 municipality, did fight against the remnants of the JNA

    14 the Serbian and Montenegrin aggressors to defend the

    15 territory, or rather the town of Konjic. Those battles

    16 were also fought in the town of Borci. I am aware of

    17 that, but I do not know any details about these battles.

    18 Q. Do you know who is responsible, important in terms of

    19 command for the operation that was being conducted in

    20 Borci?

    21 A. For the actual command of those operations, I do not

    22 know who was directly responsible. That was not within

    23 my competence.

    24 Q. And do you know -- well, do you know, in fact, whether

    25 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was operational at all in

  81. 1 that area, in Borci? Perhaps you do not know.

    2 A. At that time, we were as the army of BiH and the HVO, we

    3 were -- had some kind of co-ordination in joint

    4 operations against the common enemy. I am not aware of

    5 any other formations except for the army of

    6 Bosnia-Herzegovina. There were some HVO units, but of

    7 what magnitude, I do not know.

    8 Q. Do you know who was responsible for co-ordinating the

    9 army units of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the army units of

    10 the HVO?

    11 A. I do not know. I am not able to say who was responsible

    12 for the co-ordination. Perhaps the person who ordered it

    13 might know. I know that the people in Konjic were

    14 fighting against the aggressor for the purpose of

    15 defence; but who exactly co-ordinated those activities,

    16 I cannot say.

    17 Q. Thank you, General. General, I would ask you to look

    18 for me, please, at the next document, which is somewhat

    19 longer. It is Exhibit 124. I also have copies for

    20 their Honours, and a copy for the Defence.

    21 This is a lengthy document, General, but I would

    22 ask you, as quickly as possible, to read through it, if

    23 you would for me, please. Have you managed to look at

    24 that, General?

    25 A. Yes, I have looked at it.

  82. 1 Q. Firstly, can you see the person that it appears to be

    2 addressed to, a Fahrudin Radoncic. Have you known that

    3 person? Did you know that person?

    4 A. Yes, I knew Mr. Fahrudin Radoncic. He was for a time, at

    5 that time, I think, one of the secretaries of the

    6 Supreme Command staff of Sefer Halilovic. Today he is

    7 the owner, editor and one of the owners, of the daily

    8 newspaper, Avaz.

    9 Q. And he was located at the time, this was when this was

    10 written, December 1992, the date that is shown there, he

    11 was located in Sarajevo, was he?

    12 A. Yes, he was in Sarajevo. I met him at Sefer

    13 Halilovic's. I do not know what function he held.

    14 I think he was one of Sefer Halilovic's secretaries.

    15 Q. And the supreme -- those initials that appear there, the

    16 SVKOSR BH, that stands for the Supreme Command Staff

    17 Armed Forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, does

    18 it?

    19 A. Probably, only it is not written correctly.

    20 Q. How would it be if it -- perhaps you might tell us how

    21 it would be if it was written correctly. What would be

    22 there if it was written correctly?

    23 A. Staff of the Supreme Command, "OS", should be separated,

    24 and there should be an "I" between "B" and "H",

    25 "Bosnia-Herzegovina". I am thinking of the form and

  83. 1 the grammar. I am looking at things militarily. First,

    2 it should be the "Stab" of the commander, that is the

    3 staff of the Supreme Command. "OS" means "armed

    4 forces"; then Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

    5 Q. And the chief of staff of the Supreme Command was Sefer

    6 Halilovic at that time, was he?

    7 A. Yes, he was chief of staff of the Supreme Command.

    8 Q. Now, there is a reference there, in the second

    9 paragraph, to a meeting that took place on the evening

    10 of the 25th November, 1992, and there is a reference

    11 there to "A Pasalic", which I assume to be you, as

    12 attending that meeting. Do you recall that event?

    13 A. I must say that this document that we are now reviewing,

    14 in the heading it says "Tactical Group 1". At the time,

    15 there was no Tactical Group, it had already been

    16 incorporated into the 4th Corps, by 8th December.

    17 Secondly, in the document itself my surname and

    18 initial is mentioned, as well as a meeting. I think

    19 that I held that meeting in Prozor, when we discussed

    20 the problems linked to the aggression of the extremist

    21 section of the HVO against the Prozor. People were

    22 expelled and that is when we held that meeting -- if

    23 that is the reference to that meeting, and probably it

    24 is.

    25 Q. Those people expelled were Muslim citizens, were they,

  84. 1 at Prozor?

    2 A. Yes, mostly Bosniaks, Muslims.

    3 Q. Do you recall whether or not Zejnil Delalic was to

    4 attend that meeting, at any stage? Was it your

    5 expectation that he would have attended that meeting?

    6 A. As far as I can recall, he did not attend at that

    7 meeting. That meeting he did not attend.

    8 Q. Would it have been appropriate, having regard to the

    9 responsibilities and duties of Zejnil Delalic, to attend

    10 that meeting, had he chosen to do so?

    11 A. The situation at the time required, and that is also my

    12 opinion, that he should not attend, considering the

    13 revolt of people towards others. This need not

    14 necessarily always have been correct, or heartfelt, but

    15 it existed, because Prozor saw the extremist HVO members

    16 barge into their village, burn it down, expel them, and

    17 they were highly indignant that no one had assisted

    18 them. They were indignant that they had experienced

    19 this, and since they were within the Tactical Group,

    20 I felt that Zejnil Delalic should not attend, at the

    21 time.

    22 Q. There is a reference there, in the same paragraph, in

    23 the second sentence, where the author said:

    24 "I had agreed with others not to attend the

    25 meeting in order to forestall the allergy that the HVO

  85. 1 was prone to develop when I was around."

    2 Were you aware of any tensions that existed

    3 between Zejnil Delalic and the HVO, either at this time

    4 or prior to it?

    5 A. Already after the aggression of the extremist section of

    6 the HVO against Prozor there was tension generally

    7 between the BiH army and the HVO in those areas. There

    8 was an aversion between me and the HVO and vice versa

    9 and also between Zejnil and the HVO, probably.

    10 Q. Now, if you go to the second page for me, please,

    11 General, and in about the centre of the page,

    12 immediately above the numbered paragraph 3, there is

    13 again a reference to Arif Pasalic. Do you see that

    14 reference there? It may be slightly different on your

    15 copy. I might just check that. It may not be the

    16 centre of the page. It is immediately above the number

    17 3. It is towards the bottom of the second page on your

    18 copy.

    19 A. Yes, I see it.

    20 Q. Do you see the reference there to yourself. That

    21 sentence:

    22 "Only a couple of days earlier Arif Pasalic

    23 suggested I should leave the area for a while and

    24 recommended a way to do it."

    25 Do you remember saying that at all?

  86. 1 A. Yes. Yes, I did say that.

    2 Q. What did you say to Zejnil Delalic in relation to that?

    3 A. What we are talking about now was occurring at a time

    4 when the situation in Konjic and Jablanica, and

    5 generally in the Neretva valley, between the HVO and the

    6 BiH army forces, and when the territory of Konjic,

    7 Jablanica and Prozor -- the situation was rather vague

    8 and unclear. At that time, as the Commander of the

    9 Corps, and before that as Brigade Commander, I was

    10 exposed to a series of dangers, and it was probably

    11 thanks to chance that I avoided being assassinated.

    12 I know that Zejnil Delalic had similar assassination

    13 threats. In the town itself there were several

    14 explosions which looked as if his life might be

    15 threatened and I advised him to withdraw for a while,

    16 that it was dangerous for him and his own life, and

    17 I felt it necessary to tell him that as a person, and as

    18 a member of the army.

    19 Q. Did you suggest to him where he should go and how he

    20 should get there?

    21 A. No, I did not suggest that. All that I said was what I

    22 have just told you, and I know that we discussed how we

    23 should move around in the territory controlled by the

    24 HVO and I told him at the time: use the method that I am

    25 using. You have to have documents under another name,

  87. 1 and the most logical choice would be a Croatian surname

    2 and their documents to be able to move around freely.

    3 That is something that I did too, because there was no

    4 other way. I helped him to have a document like that.

    5 I think it was an ID card, I do not remember exactly.

    6 I gave him that document in an envelope. I did not know

    7 what was the name used on that ID, but it carried his

    8 photograph.

    9 We had those documents made to be able to move

    10 around in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

    11 especially in the area of the territory under the

    12 control of the HVO, because at the time and in that

    13 territory there were checkpoints at every so many

    14 kilometres, held by various units. There were quite a

    15 number of paramilitary formations, and if you did not

    16 have valid documents you could experience some very

    17 serious unpleasantness or even your life could -- life

    18 could be endangered. It was in that sense that

    19 I advised him.

    20 Q. General, the paragraph numbered 3, which is immediately

    21 underneath the part that you have just been talking

    22 about, you just considered, there is a reference there

    23 to rumours in Croatian newspapers about Zejnil Delalic

    24 having flown in a helicopter. Did you ever hear any of

    25 that, any rumours of that, sort or any information of

  88. 1 that sort, after he had departed on 25th November of

    2 1992?

    3 A. When I was informed that Zejnil Delalic had left the

    4 territory of Konjic municipality, I personally did not

    5 know where he had gone, nor how. The people who

    6 informed me of this did not know either. I do not know

    7 what appeared in the Croatian newspapers at the time,

    8 but in some of our own newspapers and local radio

    9 stations there were various versions. At the time, it

    10 was very difficult to have any control over them, and

    11 nobody answered for any false reporting. And there were

    12 such versions; even on the radio I heard somebody

    13 reporting that I had reliable data to show that he had

    14 left by helicopter. This is something that I never

    15 stated. I do remember that there were such articles and

    16 reports that he had left by helicopter, in this way and

    17 another.

    18 Q. Now, General, just going to the signature part of the

    19 document that you have in front of you, at the end of

    20 the document, there appears the name "Fire", "F-I-R-E".

    21 Do you know what that is intended to represent?

    22 A. I do not know what it means, used in this context;

    23 whether it is pseudonym or something, I do not know.

    24 I am not familiar with it.

    25 Q. Just to assist me again, I might ask the Registrar,

  89. 1 I think that one has been admitted into evidence as

    2 well, that document?

    3 THE REGISTRAR: According to my list, it was admitted into

    4 evidence by oral decision of the Trial Chamber on 12th

    5 September this year.

    6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I believe the Registrar has made a mistake

    7 there, your Honours. This is one of the documents among

    8 many which has not been admitted into evidence. That is

    9 my understanding of your decision on September 12th of

    10 this year.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: This document was admitted into the list in

    12 the month of June 1997.

    13 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, please.

    14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, your ruling of September 12th

    15 did not admit any documents. You admitted twelve

    16 folders, not the contents of those folders. We object

    17 to the admission of this particular document since it

    18 has not been proven. The authenticity of this document

    19 has not been shown by the Prosecution. In our

    20 submission, it is inadmissible for that reason.

    21 MR. NIEMANN: My understanding of the matter is that it has

    22 been admitted into evidence so it would seem that it is

    23 now really a question of the Prosecution establishing

    24 its relevance; and if the Prosecution is unable to

    25 establish that then the consequences of failing to do so

  90. 1 will follow. My understanding is that it has been

    2 admitted, your Honours, as with all of those documents.

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If it was one of the documents in the

    4 folders, we were specific that none of the documents was

    5 concerned in the question of the admission of the

    6 folders themselves, because there was no nexus between

    7 the documents in the folders and what was admitted as

    8 the folder.

    9 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

    10 MR. O'SULLIVAN: So, your Honour, it was not that that was

    11 admitted.

    12 MR. NIEMANN: This document falls into the category of

    13 document that was individually discussed and dealt with

    14 by the witness Moerbauer, not inside the folders. There

    15 was a group of folders that were seized. They were not

    16 tendered, at the end of the day, because the contents of

    17 the documents were not sought to be tendered, merely the

    18 folders were produced to show these were the folders

    19 from which the documents were extracted. It is not

    20 those documents. These documents are the documents

    21 specifically dealt with on an individual basis, one by

    22 one by the witness Moerbauer. My understanding is they

    23 have in fact been accepted into evidence.

    24 JUDGE JAN: Moerbauer said that he examined this document

    25 from -- which you recovered from premises, allegedly

  91. 1 occupied by Zejnil Delalic. He did not say this

    2 document belonged to, or bears the signatures of, Zejnil

    3 Delalic.

    4 MR. NIEMANN: I realise it has not reached that level of

    5 proof. My understanding is it is admitted into evidence

    6 from the record.

    7 JUDGE JAN: Further documents found, that is all it is. Not

    8 that its contents are admitted as part of the evidence.

    9 MR. NIEMANN: I am only going by the record. There may be

    10 some confusion about that, your Honours.

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is possible to admit what he found

    12 in the premises, but in order to use it for evidence, at

    13 least it has to be authenticated first.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: I understand -- I initially had misunderstood

    15 the situation myself. I understand from our looking at

    16 the record that the position seems to be, as

    17 I understood it, that it has been admitted into

    18 evidence, but it has not -- but the relevance of it or

    19 what it seeks to prove has not yet been established.

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is when you establish the

    21 authenticity of the document itself; then you can use it

    22 for the contents.

    23 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, as proof of the contents of it. The

    24 technical step of admitting it ... I understand it has

    25 been admitted.

  92. 1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is not possible to use it for its

    2 content until you establish that.

    3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, if I could be of assistance; on

    4 Friday, September 12th, at page 7407 of the transcript,

    5 in your decision from the bench, you said:

    6 "The Prosecution is seeking to tender twelve

    7 folders containing documents but not the documents

    8 contained therein."

    9 The document we are referring to, according to the

    10 testimony of Officer Moerbauer was found in folder I5,

    11 which he claims was handed to him by Officer Navrat.

    12 Also, during Officer Moerbauer's testimony, he was

    13 unable to identify any document from Inda-Bau which he

    14 claims he analysed at police headquarters. By the

    15 Prosecution's own witness, Officer Moerbauer, who

    16 claimed to have marked these documents, none of the

    17 documents alleged seized from Inda-Bau was identified in

    18 this courtroom by Officer Moerbauer. The Prosecution

    19 has failed to prove authenticity of these documents.

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we appear to be speaking at

    21 cross-purposes. This is not what he is saying. The

    22 contention of Mr. Niemann is that these documents are

    23 different from those in the folders, and as I said even

    24 if Mr. Moerbauer had at that time removed this one and

    25 stated that these were documents recovered, it might be

  93. 1 admitted as documents they have recovered, but he can

    2 not use them for the contents of the documents. This is

    3 what we are saying. That is quite different from what

    4 you are arguing.

    5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: On the evidence, your Honour, the

    6 Prosecution witness Moerbauer says this document was in

    7 folder I5. That can be found on page 3653 of the

    8 record. I do not know how my friend can be contending

    9 this document comes from any other place other than I5.

    10 MR. NIEMANN: I think the confusion was there were twelve

    11 folders that were presented to the court. Those

    12 documents were not admitted, and those folders were not

    13 admitted into evidence, and the Prosecution does not

    14 seek to tender them in as evidence. The only purpose

    15 they were produced for -- this was the chain of evidence

    16 issue. The documents that the present document, 124,

    17 relates to is the documents that were taken out of those

    18 folders before it ever came near this court and were

    19 dealt with individually by Moerbauer and others. It is

    20 my understanding that it is those documents that have

    21 been accepted into evidence.

    22 Now, I understand the issue, that they cannot be

    23 relied upon as proof of their contents until they are

    24 proved. But I understand they have been admitted, so

    25 the formal process of admitting the document has taken

  94. 1 place. That is the only thing that concerned me at the

    2 moment.

    3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I think this is where my learned friend and

    4 I part company, because this document from the testimony

    5 of Moerbauer allegedly comes from folder I5. It does

    6 not come from anywhere else. Moerbauer says he was

    7 handed that folder among the twelve he allegedly

    8 received from Navrat.

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: All that you are saying is that no such

    10 evidence occurred, that Moerbauer had moved documents

    11 outside those twelve folders. No such evidence was

    12 before the Trial Chamber that there were documents

    13 outside those folders which he says he recovered. Is it

    14 your argument that all the documents which you can rely

    15 upon here, are documents which were in the folders?

    16 That is not what is being said here.

    17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: This particular document was in folder I5,

    18 according to the testimony of Moerbauer. When he came

    19 before this court he could not identify a mark which he

    20 said he placed upon every document within I5. This

    21 document has not been authenticated.

    22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Everybody has agreed that it cannot be

    23 used for the contents. So I cannot see your argument

    24 here.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: I will ask the witness be shown this document.

  95. 1 I have a copy, and an English version. It is a document

    2 that has not as yet been tendered. I ask that it be

    3 given an exhibit number.

    4 THE REGISTRAR: This is the document of the Prosecution 188,

    5 188.

    6 MR. NIEMANN: I ask that this document be marked for

    7 identification.

    8 JUDGE JAN: Are you sure this document relates to this

    9 case?

    10 MR. NIEMANN: I noticed that, your Honour, yes. Paragraph 3,

    11 your Honour.

    12 JUDGE JAN: I am looking at the last page, it is signed by

    13 Blaskic.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour, there is some degree of

    15 overlapping.

    16 General, I would ask you to look through that

    17 particular document you are being shown there. In

    18 particular, I am asking you to concentrate on the

    19 paragraph numbered 3, which appears on the second page

    20 of my version of the document, and appears towards the

    21 bottom of the second page of your document.

    22 General, starting off with going to the signatory

    23 side of that part of that document, at the very bottom,

    24 on the last page, did you know that particular Commander

    25 at the time when you were located in the Mostar area?

  96. 1 A. Yes, I knew him.

    2 Q. And insofar as the responsibilities of Zejnil Delalic

    3 were concerned, was there an overlap, or I should say a

    4 mutual area of responsibility, consistent with the area

    5 of responsibility of Colonel Blaskic, so far as you

    6 know?

    7 A. As far as I know, Colonel Blaskic was the Commander of

    8 the operational zone of central Bosnia, the headquarters

    9 of which were in Vitez, and under his responsibilities

    10 were the Croatian Defence Council unit, but there were

    11 also BiH army units there towards Gornji Vakuf and

    12 Prozor. I am not sure whether Prozor was in his area,

    13 but there were units which overlapped in the zones of

    14 responsibilities, the areas of responsibility.

    15 Q. You see in relation to paragraph 3 in particular, a

    16 reference there on 7th, 8th August, which I assume is

    17 1992, there is a reference to hostility by TO members in

    18 Kiseljak?

    19 A. Yes, that is what is said in paragraph 3.

    20 Q. Do you recall any incidents occurring in this area at

    21 the time?

    22 A. I was one of the eyewitnesses of the conflict between

    23 the BiH army and the HVO, which happened first on 24th

    24 October, 1992, when the extreme section of the HVO

    25 attacked Prozor. I was in Prozor at that time. I was

  97. 1 also in Novi Travnik when the conflict started between

    2 the BiH army and the HVO. I heard of the conflict in

    3 Kiseljak but I was not there. Here it speaks of

    4 aggression. On 9th May I was informed I performed

    5 aggression on the HVO and asked of Bosniaks to have

    6 white flags and to surrender. It is wrongly used word

    7 here or maybe done on purpose like that.

    8 Q. I am not asking whether or not you agree with the

    9 terminology employed, indeed I would be surprised if you

    10 did. I am just asking whether you were aware of any

    11 conflict that was arising in those places. I want to

    12 specifically move on to the reference there to the

    13 conflict brewing in Jablanica; were you aware of a

    14 conflict developing in that area?

    15 A. I was.

    16 MR. OLUJIC: Objection, your Honour, to the relevance of the

    17 question.

    18 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, it goes specifically to -- it

    19 needs to be read, I think, to see the reference of it.

    20 It makes specific reference to Zejnil Delalic.

    21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you can answer it.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: Were you aware of conflict brewing in that

    23 particular area at that time?

    24 A. Yes, I was aware of that.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: And there is also a reference there to a demand

  98. 1 by Zejnil Delalic when he speaks and says here, I will

    2 quote it:

    3 "... speaks of HVO members of gangs of hooligans

    4 and talks of a need to disband the HVO."

    5 Were you aware of allegations of this time being

    6 made at that time?

    7 JUDGE JAN: By Zejnil Delalic?

    8 MR. NIEMANN: By Zejnil Delalic?

    9 A. I read this for the first time here. I never heard of

    10 such allegations.

    11 Q. Did you hear allegations coming in the other direction,

    12 from the Muslim side or the army of the BiH side, saying

    13 that incidents were happening with members of the HVO,

    14 at that particular period in time?

    15 A. In that period of time, that happened somewhere around

    16 11th August, 1992, there were stories about the

    17 conflicts between the army and the Croatian Defence

    18 Council. The comments were different. Everybody had

    19 their own opinion. Those people who wanted common

    20 fighting against the Chetniks were against such

    21 conflicts. We were trying to prevent those conflicts,

    22 under orders of our superior commands, but these

    23 conflicts continued to happen, and they are the result

    24 of various objectives of fighting, and struggle. And

    25 they did happen, that is a fact.

  99. 1 Q. General, would you -- perhaps that document might be

    2 handed back. It is to be marked for identification.

    3 I am not seeking to tender it at this stage.

    4 Would you look, please, at the document that you

    5 are now shown? Might a copy be given to their Honours,

    6 and a copy to the Defence?

    7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, can we be reminded of the

    8 number of the last document?

    9 MR. NIEMANN: 188, your Honour. Might this document be given

    10 a number too, please, the one you are now being shown?

    11 THE REGISTRAR: This exhibit is marked as Prosecution

    12 Exhibit 188.

    13 MR. NIEMANN: I think this should be 189.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: This was a previous document. Yes. This is

    15 189.

    16 MR. NIEMANN: General, in your evidence just immediately

    17 prior to showing you this document, you have spoken of

    18 the increasing tensions between the HVO and the army of

    19 Bosnia-Herzegovina in a number of areas, including the

    20 area of Prozor. Do you remember that?

    21 A. Yes, I do.

    22 Q. You also spoke of a meeting that you attended of the

    23 refugees of Prozor?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Do you see this order that has now been shown to you,

  100. 1 and from a reading of that order does that appear to be

    2 consistent with the worsening or deterioration of the

    3 situation in the Prozor area, and does it appear to

    4 relate to that deterioration of relations between the

    5 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO at that

    6 particular point in time?

    7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I would like to mention that

    8 the witness spoke about a meeting towards the end of

    9 November, and this document is about August 1992, so it

    10 does not relate to the question that has just been

    11 asked.

    12 MR. NIEMANN: I think it might, your Honour. I do think that

    13 the refugees do not appear until after this military

    14 action. I address the question to the General.

    15 In relation to the second paragraph of this

    16 document here, General, it relates to the to evacuation

    17 the Muslim population. Do you see that reference there?

    18 A. Yes, I do.

    19 Q. The refugees you saw in that meeting in November of

    20 1992, were they refugees that arose as a consequence of

    21 this evacuation that took place because of the

    22 deterioration of the situation between the HVO and the

    23 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    24 A. The refugees I spoke of at the meeting in August were in

    25 Prozor, and those were refugees that had to flee under

  101. 1 the pressure of the HVO which was already present in

    2 Prozor, with all its forces. The aggression on Prozor

    3 happened on the 24th October. At that time an even

    4 greater number of refugees were expelled, but already in

    5 the beginning, in July and August, people were leaving

    6 the area of the town under pressure from HVO and their

    7 units. These units -- those were the refugees I spoke

    8 of. Here it is exactly meant, the refugees, just as it

    9 is written, from a particular village.

    10 JUDGE JAN: The position is not slightly clear to me. I

    11 have the order of appointment for Zejnil Delalic as

    12 commanding officer of the BiH army Tactical Group for

    13 the areas of Hazici, Kazaric, Konjic and Jablanica.

    14 This town Prozor, was it subsequently extended, the

    15 authority, to Prozor also?

    16 MR. NIEMANN: I am afraid I cannot answer your Honour, I do

    17 not know. I will need to find that out. I do not know

    18 if the General can assist us on that?

    19 JUDGE JAN: You have seen that order. Prozor is not

    20 mentioned there.

    21 MR. NIEMANN: I am aware of that, yes.

    22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, may I draw your attention to

    23 the fact that the Prosecutor has in no way shown the

    24 authenticity or anything else linked to this document

    25 which could approve or show to anybody anything, at the

  102. 1 least to this witness, because we do not know anything

    2 about the document, who did it, when. This is a very

    3 poor copy of the document. I think that the Prosecutor

    4 has no grounds for using such a document even throughout

    5 his examination, let alone to tender it to a witness.

    6 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, firstly I am not seeking to

    7 tender it through this witness. Secondly, it is

    8 appropriate that the witness be shown a document that

    9 relates to the deterioration in relations between the

    10 HVO and the BiH armed forces. It is appropriate for the

    11 Prosecution to present this, having regard to the fact

    12 that the witness has attested to the events that

    13 occurred subsequently in Prozor. It is appropriate,

    14 your Honour, that the witness be shown this document,

    15 notwithstanding its quality, having regard to the fact

    16 that this is the best copy or quality copy that we were

    17 given. We have not deliberately set about the process

    18 of making it worse.

    19 So, your Honours, if this witness is in a position

    20 to express any views in relation to it, and I submit

    21 that he is, having regard to the evidence that you have

    22 already heard, then he should be permitted to express

    23 those views.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may continue.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. Again, General, do you see the

  103. 1 reference in the first paragraph to the withdrawal of

    2 BiH armed forces? Do you know why that occurred?

    3 A. I do not know whether this order had been realised or

    4 not.

    5 Q. Were you aware of any evacuation of Muslim populations

    6 having taken place in those areas that are mentioned

    7 there, at about the end of August?

    8 A. No. No, I was not aware of that.

    9 Q. Perhaps that document might be returned to the

    10 Registrar.

    11 General, I would ask you to look at this document,

    12 which I will now show you. This is also a new

    13 document.

    14 Might it be given a new number, please, Madam

    15 Registrar?

    16 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 190.

    17 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. Again, I seek to have this marked

    18 for identification.

    19 Your Honours, I note that it is 4.00 pm. Would

    20 your Honours wish to adjourn now and we will resume

    21 this?

    22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We shall now rise and come back at

    23 4.30.

    24 (4.00 pm)

    25 (Short break)

  104. 1 (4.30 pm)

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may take your seat, please.

    3 Please remind the witness he is still on his oath.

    4 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you are still under

    5 oath.

    6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do proceed, Mr. Niemann.

    7 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases.

    8 General Pasalic, just before the break I asked you

    9 to look for me at document marked number 190. Did you

    10 manage to do that for me?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. General, in this document, the second paragraph --

    13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honours, I must object. This document

    14 has been marked for identification purposes. I submit

    15 the first question for the witness is to ask him whether

    16 he can identify it, not to ask questions on it first.

    17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed, please.

    18 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases.

    19 General, in the second paragraph of the document

    20 that you have seen there, there is a reference there to

    21 percentages. From your experience in the field at that

    22 particular time, and in particular during the year of

    23 1992, were you aware of any practices in relation to

    24 such matters that you are able to attest to?

    25 A. Yes, there were such instances.

  105. 1 Q. And how did that operate? What was the purpose of that?

    2 A. If you are referring to the percentages taken by the

    3 Croatian Defence Council, I do not know what the purpose

    4 was. It depended on the resources being taken.

    5 Q. How did this come about? How were percentages of the

    6 goods extracted as goods were carried? How did that

    7 occur? Do you know?

    8 A. Simply through the territory under the control of the

    9 HVO. It was not possible to transport anything without

    10 paying for it. If you did not have the funds, then you

    11 had to give a certain percentages of those supplies to

    12 the HVO, to ensure passage through that territory.

    13 Q. And what was the consequence of not providing the

    14 percentages? What happened if percentages were not

    15 provided?

    16 A. The consequences would be that you could not pass

    17 through that part of territory. Sometimes, the

    18 consequences would be that they would simply seize them

    19 under threat of a conflict, under threat of use of arms,

    20 so that you could no longer appear along that route, and

    21 things like that.

    22 Q. General, in the early part of the war, around May and

    23 June, that early part, were there any arrangements

    24 between the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO for

    25 sharing or exchanging of equipment that you were aware

  106. 1 of?

    2 A. We generally had many agreements, but few of them were

    3 respected. I personally, as Commander of the Battalion,

    4 Brigade, and later the Corps, I had a number of

    5 arrangements with the HVO, but you would agree to

    6 something at a meeting and then in practice something

    7 else would happen. This was probably due to the

    8 arbitrariness of some of the Commanders of the HVO, but

    9 it was also due to the system of simply capturing

    10 parts. For example, I got a 122 millimetre Howitzer

    11 from the factory in Novi Travnik and the HVO seized it

    12 when it was passing through territory under their

    13 control. I never managed to get it back. There were

    14 also physical attacks. Outside the control of the

    15 system of the HVO and the BiH army a unit would

    16 intercede a driver transporting the supply and simply

    17 seize it from him.

    18 Q. In the early time, in the early part of the war in early

    19 May, April and May 1992, when the relations between the

    20 HVO and the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were not so

    21 tense, were there times when both armies agreed to

    22 exchange equipment and share equipment, that you are

    23 aware of?

    24 A. I had examples of using, together with the HVO, certain

    25 equipment in the struggle against the remnants of the

  107. 1 former JNA and the Chetniks, as we called them then.

    2 But we shared artillery, for instance, or we jointly

    3 engaged in combat against the same aggressor.

    4 Q. Was it necessary to, for you, in order to share this

    5 equipment, to be authorised to do that, or is it

    6 something that you could just do without authorisation?

    7 A. As the Commander, I could not go beyond my zone unless

    8 I had an appropriate document. I could not receive

    9 equipment if I did not have the necessary authorisation,

    10 and if I were to send my men to get equipment from the

    11 storage, from the warehouse, I had to give them a

    12 document, authorising them to take that equipment and

    13 bring it to the command of my unit.

    14 Q. Thank you. Would you look at the document that you are

    15 now shown, please? This is a document that will need to

    16 be given a number as well.

    17 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked Prosecution Exhibit

    18 191.

    19 A. Yes, I have looked at it.

    20 MR. NIEMANN: We need to wait for a moment, General.

    21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, with respect to Exhibit 191 and

    22 other documents that have preceded it, just for the

    23 purposes of the record, on behalf of Mr. Landzo, I want

    24 to record our objection to this and all documents that

    25 have been handled in this same way. My understanding of

  108. 1 what is happening is that documents that have no showing

    2 of authenticity whatsoever are being shown to the

    3 witness and, even more seriously, shown to the court,

    4 the trier of fact in this case, with the representation

    5 that, by Mr. Niemann, that he is not even trying to

    6 tender them at this point.

    7 I worry how, when we get down to this Tribunal

    8 needing to make decisions in this case, you will ever be

    9 able to separate in your minds what is evidence in the

    10 case and what is not, because all day you have been

    11 reading documents that I think will never come into

    12 evidence, that the Prosecution has said they are not

    13 even intending to tender at this point; and I am worried

    14 about how that all finally works out. If it is the

    15 court's position that this is an appropriate way to

    16 present evidence, then I only hope that Mr. Niemann will

    17 not object when we begin to do and use the same

    18 procedure. Thank you.

    19 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I am surprised that Mr. Ackerman

    20 has seen fit to suggest that your Honours may have

    21 difficulty performing the task of sorting evidence.

    22 I am disappointed that he has made such an observation.

    23 It is regrettable that he would do so. I am sure your

    24 Honours will have no difficulty in doing that when it

    25 comes to findings. At the end of the day I am quite

  109. 1 sure that your Honours will be diligent in separating

    2 that which is considered and accepted as evidence from

    3 that which is rejected, or not accepted as evidence.

    4 I am sure your Honours, and I have great confidence, in

    5 fact, that your Honours have the capacity to do this.

    6 Indeed, in the jurisdiction where Mr. Ackerman comes from

    7 he is well aware that juries are often instructed to do

    8 it. If juries can be instructed to do it then I have no

    9 doubt whatsoever that people with legal training such as

    10 your Honours could do it without any difficulty at all.

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I actually I am

    12 not surprised because many of the questions coming from

    13 all the sides ignore the Rules.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So that is the real problem. But

    16 I think we should be able to take care out of that. It

    17 will not be a problem.

    18 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases.

    19 General, do you recognise the stamp that appears

    20 on the base of that document?

    21 A. This is the stamp of the former Socialist Republic of

    22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, of the Ministry of Defence.

    23 Q. Do you recognise the name of the person who has signed

    24 it there?

    25 A. In printed letters it says "Jerko Doko, graduate

  110. 1 economist". I do recognise it.

    2 Q. Do you know who he was?

    3 A. At the time he was Minister of Defence of

    4 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    5 Q. You spoke earlier in your evidence of a need to have

    6 authorisation to deal with equipment belonging to the

    7 government of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is

    8 this consistent with the types of authorisations that

    9 would be required for that purpose?

    10 A. This is an authorisation issued by the Minister Jerko

    11 Doko in line with his function at the time and the

    12 authorisation itself describes what is being authorised.

    13 Q. General, do you know who it was that had ultimate

    14 responsibility for prisoners of war that were detained

    15 by members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina during the

    16 course of 1992?

    17 A. The concept of detention of prisoners of war, as the

    18 Battalion Commander and Brigade Commander I had

    19 prisoners of war which I captured in the course of

    20 battle, and I was responsible for them as the Commander,

    21 while they were in my unit, and I would hand them over

    22 to the headquarters of the HVO with whom we engaged

    23 jointly in operations against the same aggressor. The

    24 continued proceedings were within the terms of reference

    25 of that command.

  111. 1 Q. And above you, who was responsible for prisoners of war

    2 in the -- who was your immediate superior responsible

    3 for prisoners of war?

    4 A. My superior at the time was the chief of staff of the

    5 Supreme of Command, Sefer Halilovic, who was responsible

    6 for the overall activities of the Territorial Defence

    7 and the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. We were

    8 subordinated to him, within the chain of control and

    9 command. He was probably also responsible for all other

    10 matters, including the question of prisoners of war.

    11 Q. And did you have any responsibility in terms of the

    12 conditions of detention of prisoners of war that you had

    13 captured?

    14 A. No. I did not have those responsibilities. At the time

    15 my unit was of such a level and rank that I did not have

    16 any competence over captured men. My duty was to hand

    17 them over to the responsible headquarters, and that was

    18 the HVO headquarters in Mostar.

    19 Q. Now, in circumstances where the HVO were not

    20 responsible, who would then be responsible for the

    21 prisoners of war?

    22 A. If they were captured by my unit, I was responsible as

    23 the Commander until I handed them over to the next level

    24 of authority.

    25 Q. What responsibility did you have to these prisoners of

  112. 1 war during the time that they were in your custody, that

    2 is prior to them being handed over?

    3 A. My responsibilities were those included in the general

    4 instructions of the Superior Command. Our orders were

    5 that prisoners of war should be disarmed, secured,

    6 escorted and handed over to competent authorities for

    7 further proceedings.

    8 Q. During your training as a military officer, did you

    9 receive any special training with respect to the

    10 receiving and treatment of prisoners of war?

    11 A. Through my training in the former Yugoslav People's

    12 Army, through secondary military schools, the Academy

    13 and the High Academy, we had certain subjects taught

    14 regarding the treatment of prisoners of war. We

    15 reviewed and studied and were taught the Geneva and

    16 other Conventions relevant to prisoners of war. With

    17 the beginning of the war, we in the BiH army did not

    18 have any specific training, because there was no time

    19 for it, but we were given certain instructions regarding

    20 the treatment of the people who are captured.

    21 Q. And what were those certain instruction that is you were

    22 given?

    23 A. To treat captured soldiers and people in the spirit of

    24 the Geneva Conventions, that they should not be exposed

    25 to any other pressure or arbitrary treatment by

  113. 1 individuals, or any other group of people; that they had

    2 to be under the control of the responsible command, and

    3 should be accommodated in places specially assigned for

    4 that purpose.

    5 Q. And to whom were these instructions given?

    6 A. They were given to those of us who were in charge of

    7 units. I received such instructions as the Commander of

    8 the Battalion and the Brigade in that period.

    9 Q. Now, what would be the consequences to you, if you had

    10 failed to comply with those instructions? Do you know?

    11 A. I do not know what the consequences would have been, but

    12 it is my duty to carry out the orders of my superiors.

    13 If that order includes instructions regarding the

    14 treatment of captured people, if I fail to follow those

    15 orders, actions are determined by my superior.

    16 Q. Could you have faced disciplinary action by your

    17 superiors if you had failed to comply with these orders

    18 in relation to captured persons?

    19 A. I do not know whether they could have taken such

    20 measures, but I have said what the conditions were. My

    21 superior, that is chief of staff Sefer Halilovic, at the

    22 time was in Sarajevo under siege. Our contacts were by

    23 means of radio and possibly by messenger. He probably

    24 could not fully implement all those measures, but he

    25 would have probably in some other ways sought to

  114. 1 sanction my errors. I did not have any such example

    2 when I should have come under any sanctions, so I cannot

    3 say what he would have done.

    4 Q. Did you ever have occasion to discipline soldiers under

    5 your command for failing to comply with your orders with

    6 respect to the treatment of captured persons?

    7 A. I did not have any such instances of soldiers treating

    8 prisoners in a way that would require any disciplinary

    9 measures in the period of the formation of the 4th Corp.

    10 Q. General, do you know why Serb prisoners were being held

    11 in the Celebici camp?

    12 A. I do not know who the prisoners were by name, nor their

    13 ethnic or social origin. I was told that people had

    14 been isolated in the premises of the former JNA

    15 warehouse in Celebici, that they were there in the

    16 hangar. They told me I was told that they were mostly

    17 of Serb ethnicity, but I do not know individually.

    18 I gave the commission the task to investigate who those

    19 people were, whether they were members of the former

    20 JNA, whether they were soldiers, in fact to investigate

    21 who those people were, and to report to the competent

    22 courts for further proceedings.

    23 Later on, I required that those people from my

    24 area of responsibility should be handed over to the

    25 civilian judiciary authorities for further proceedings,

  115. 1 and I think it was at the end of December that

    2 I actually did this with a written order.

    3 MR. NIEMANN: General, I would ask you now to look at Exhibit

    4 137, and I have a copy for your Honours and for the

    5 Defence of this exhibit.

    6 General, do you recognise this document?

    7 A. Yes, I do.

    8 Q. And why do you recognise it?

    9 A. I cannot hear too well in my earphones.

    10 Q. Can you hear me now?

    11 A. Yes, but I have also got noise in the headphones.

    12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Try to make an adjustment and see

    13 whether you can improve on it.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: I will speak for a moment and see if you can

    15 hear me. Can you hear me now? Does that sound better?

    16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, we will try to get one of the

    17 technicians to check it.

    18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any improvement?

    19 A. Yes, it is better.

    20 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, General.

    21 General, how is it that you recognise this

    22 document? How is it that you are able to recognise it?

    23 A. This is my report to the staff of the army of

    24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, addressed personally to the chief of

    25 staff, Sefer Halilovic.

  116. 1 Q. And it is dated 7th December, 1992, is that correct?

    2 A. Yes, it is.

    3 Q. And did you affix your signature to this document?

    4 A. I think I did. It is not here, because this had been

    5 sent by fax, but I think that I signed it.

    6 Q. And, General, there are a number of names mentioned

    7 thereof, persons that you have ordered to be detained

    8 for 30 days. Firstly, the name Edib Saric; did you know

    9 that person yourself?

    10 A. Yes, I met him in the war.

    11 Q. And are you able to confirm whether he did indeed hold

    12 the position of Commander of the Tactical Group -- of

    13 assistant to the Commander of Tactical Group 1?

    14 A. Yes, he held that office.

    15 Q. And the next named person there, Hazim Delic, were you

    16 able, as a result of your inquiries, to establish that

    17 he held the position of Deputy Commander of the Celebici

    18 prison?

    19 A. The officers, the functions that were held and that are

    20 listed here are the ones I was informed of by the

    21 Committee for Investigation; and they have established

    22 that.

    23 Q. As a result of the commission that you -- the commission

    24 that you ordered, were you informed of the positions

    25 held by the next two named persons, numbers 4 and 5,

  117. 1 Esad Landzo and Osman Dedic, or do you not know?

    2 A. They informed me that these persons whose names first

    3 and last are stated here and that office, the duty they

    4 did, were on the territory of Konjic. For Esad Landzo

    5 and Osman Dedic there is no position that they held that

    6 is noted here, because I did not know what concrete

    7 specific duties they had.

    8 Q. And finally, down in the last paragraph, there is a

    9 reference there to the issue of arrest warrant by MUP,

    10 and there is also a reference to Interpol. Had you

    11 sought an Interpol warrant at that stage because

    12 Mr. Zejnil Delalic and Mucic had left the territory by

    13 that stage?

    14 A. At point 4, IV, I asked the chief of staff to give an

    15 approval for Zejnil Delalic as the Commander of the

    16 Tactical Group and Mucic as the Commander of the prison,

    17 so that the warrant for arrest be issued by the Ministry

    18 of Internal Affairs, the MUP, and the Interpol, because

    19 they had the territory. As I was not competent to issue

    20 such a warrant I asked that from the chief of staff of

    21 the Supreme Command, superior officer.

    22 Q. Was that the only reason why you wrote to the chief of

    23 staff, to the Supreme Command, or did you report to him

    24 for any other reason?

    25 A. Point 4 is the last one in this report and the rest of

  118. 1 the report is given under numbers 1, 2 and 3 -- I, II

    2 and III. The last paragraphs ask for an arrest warrant

    3 to be issued and also to start criminal proceedings and

    4 take criminal charges in absentia because the committee

    5 has established that there were elements for criminal

    6 charges against them.

    7 Q. And did you report this to Sefer Halilovic, because he

    8 was your Commander, your immediate superior?

    9 A. Yes. The report is addressed to him.

    10 MR. NIEMANN: And I might just ask the Registrar to confirm

    11 that this has been admitted into evidence, your Honours,

    12 please? Whether or not it has been admitted?

    13 THE REGISTRAR: This document was admitted into evidence by

    14 the oral decision of the Trial Chamber on the 10th

    15 September, 1997.

    16 MS. RESIDOVIC: I am sorry, your Honour, but what we have

    17 just heard does not -- is not consistent with the ruling

    18 in the transcript of this Tribunal on that day. We only

    19 heard by the Trial Chamber the decision about the

    20 legality of the proceedings. But there was, in no case,

    21 anything about the admission of any of the documents

    22 that were in the folders.

    23 To my specific question the Trial Chamber has

    24 answered, and this is in the transcript, that relating

    25 to every document it will be necessary to determine the

  119. 1 authenticity of that document and relevance of the

    2 document and only then decide upon the admitting of

    3 these documents into evidence. If there was any

    4 difference about the decision of the Trial Chamber, we

    5 want everything to check why this decision of the

    6 Tribunal was written in such a way in the transcript.

    7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Niemann, can we hear your reply,

    8 because you have before you the person who actually has

    9 claimed to have signed this?

    10 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, and I tender it, if there is any doubt

    11 about the question. Because he is here, we do not

    12 envisage him coming back. As he is the author of the

    13 document, he has described its contents, he has

    14 recognised it. I would tender it if it has not been

    15 tendered. Alternatively, if it has been tendered then,

    16 your Honours, I would argue that it may now be accepted

    17 for the truth of its contents, having regard to the

    18 evidence of this witness.

    19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not sure it could be tendered by

    20 anybody else other than the author, the person who

    21 actually signed it, because I do not see how the

    22 authenticity could be accepted except by the person who

    23 actually signed it. I am not certain that it was

    24 tendered to prove that this was the contents of this.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: If it has not been, your Honour, I tender it

  120. 1 and I ask that it be accepted into evidence of the truth

    2 of its contents.

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have any objections let us know,

    4 because the General who actually signed it is before the

    5 Trial Chamber.

    6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, at this moment we have no

    7 objection to the admission into evidence of this

    8 document, since the General has recognised it. But I

    9 have an objection to every single document that has been

    10 shown up to now from those folders nobody has ever seen.

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: When a document has been recovered from

    12 someone it could be admitted as what he recovered. It

    13 does not contend the contents which have to be

    14 established by the person who actually made it. Now,

    15 here is the person who actually signed the document

    16 before you. I do not see what your arguments would be.

    17 It could be admitted in evidence as a document signed by

    18 him.

    19 MR. NIEMANN: I would ask also that Exhibit 114, the video

    20 tape, be admitted on the same basis.

    21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, because that is the person that

    22 gave the interview.

    23 MR. NIEMANN: He gave the interview.

    24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, as to 114, we have no objection to

    25 those portions involving the General. Any extraneous

  121. 1 things that happened beyond there --

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Shall not be part of it.

    3 MR. MORAN: That is our objection. We agree with the court.

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Just his interview.

    5 MR. MORAN: That is correct. We have no objection to that.

    6 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please.

    7 General, I would ask you now to be shown Exhibit

    8 141. Again, I have a copy for your Honours and for the

    9 Defence.

    10 General, have you had an opportunity to look at

    11 the document I have now shown you?

    12 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, we would object to any testimony

    13 about this document, in that it suggests an extraneous

    14 criminal offence which is not admissible under Rule 92

    15 -- excuse me, your Honour, Rule 93; I am sorry, Rule

    16 93.

    17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What does Rule 93 say?

    18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, Rule 93 is an exception to the

    19 general rule that proof of other crimes is

    20 inadmissible. The exception is if it is a consistent

    21 pattern of violations of international humanitarian law

    22 recognisable under the Statute it is admissible.

    23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think this is proving anything

    24 like that against him. Even what this contains is

    25 accusation. This establishes nothing.

  122. 1 MR. NIEMANN: I should make it clear that in the Prosecution

    2 -- the Prosecution does not seek to tender this in

    3 relation to the truth of any of the allegations

    4 contained in it. It is not sought to do that for that

    5 purpose at all. I make the observation, your Honours,

    6 that it does not face the objection that one might have,

    7 should it be a finding of a court which the Prosecution

    8 or a party may press upon your Honours to be a finding

    9 that your Honours should accept, but nevertheless, even

    10 though it does not go to that, in any event the

    11 Prosecution seeks to tender this on the basis that it

    12 refers to the persons mentioned and the ranks,

    13 responsibilities and duties ascribed to them by the

    14 document itself. That is the basis upon which the

    15 Prosecution seeks to tender it. It does not seek to, in

    16 any way, rely upon the allegations made therein.

    17 JUDGE JAN: From this there is another aspect. This

    18 document explains why the General had requested that the

    19 warrant be issued, this document which is a report to

    20 the chief of staff. It does not mention why a warrant

    21 was being sought against the -- against Zejnil Delalic.

    22 This document explains why, what were the charges

    23 against him. In fact, you should welcome this

    24 particular document, instead of opposing it.

    25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would normally, except this

  123. 1 accuses my client of a murder.

    2 JUDGE JAN: It may be. But that is nothing to do with us.

    3 He has not been charged with the murder of Nurko

    4 Delalil. This in fact explains the request by the

    5 General to his superior that warrants be issued for his

    6 arrest. In fact, you should welcome this document.

    7 MR. MORAN: In the normal course of business I would. Any

    8 probative value it has is clearly outweighed by the

    9 prejudicial value of calling my guy a murderer.

    10 JUDGE JAN: It is merely an allegation, it has not been said

    11 it has been proved.

    12 MR. MORAN: That is correct, it is merely an allegation.

    13 MR. NIEMANN: An allegation I ask your Honours to disregard.

    14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It has nothing to do with us. I accept

    15 there are other facts which may be relevant to the

    16 charges against him.

    17 MR. NIEMANN: General, do you recognise this document?

    18 A. I do.

    19 Q. Why is it that you are able to recognise the document?

    20 A. I recognise this document for its contents and because

    21 here there is my name, first and last name, after I have

    22 reported to the chief of staff of the Supreme Command

    23 and asked for a warrant of arrest to be issued.

    24 I received an approval that I could undertake criminal

    25 proceedings, that is, to ask for a criminal charges

  124. 1 against these people.

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may continue, please.

    3 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please. And the persons that

    4 are named therein, namely Zejnil Delalic, Esad -- Zejnil

    5 Delalic, Hazim Delic, Zdravko Mucic also known as Pavo,

    6 are they persons who were the subject of your

    7 investigation as was referred to in the previous

    8 exhibit?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. And are the duties and ranks ascribed to those persons

    11 in this document, so far as you are aware, correct for

    12 the time, at the relevant time?

    13 A. At that time, we had no ranks, we only had duties, but

    14 the committee that performed -- that carried out the

    15 investigation informed me that against these persons

    16 criminal charges should be started, and I did it at the

    17 District Military Court under the orders of the chief of

    18 staff, of the general staff of the Bosnia-Herzegovina

    19 army.

    20 Q. General, my question was: so far as you are aware, were

    21 the positions ascribed to the persons named in this

    22 document correct, so far as you are concerned, or were

    23 aware?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: I tender this document, your Honour. The truth

  125. 1 of its contents in relation to the limited purpose of

    2 the names and the positions that are ascribed to the

    3 persons contained therein.

    4 JUDGE JAN: I would just like to ask a question of the

    5 General at this stage. These charges were prepared on

    6 the basis of the report of the commission that you had

    7 set up?

    8 A. On the basis of the report of the commission, which

    9 carried out investigations, the investigative

    10 proceedings, and on the basis of the approval of the

    11 chief of staff, because I cannot press any charges or

    12 start any proceedings if I have not received the

    13 approval of my superior officers.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I am almost finished. I have

    15 some more questions and some more documents, but there

    16 is not much more of my evidence to go, but I note the

    17 time. Would your Honours wish to rise now, would that

    18 be a convenient time?

    19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It depends how much longer you intend

    20 to be.

    21 MR. NIEMANN: It is going to be at least half an hour.

    22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay, we can conclude tomorrow morning,

    23 so that cross-examination can carry on.

    24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, before you leave, just as a

    25 matter of planning, I might inquire of the Prosecutor,

  126. 1 it appears that this witness' testimony will probably go

    2 through the day tomorrow. Does the Prosecutor intend to

    3 continue calling the current list of witnesses into next

    4 week? It seems apparent that is where we are going.

    5 MR. NIEMANN: The best I can answer at the moment, your

    6 Honours, is that the witnesses are on subpoena, so it

    7 may be that we need to see, if they go back to Sarajevo,

    8 whether they will come back again. That may be a matter

    9 which we may need to spend some time on tomorrow

    10 afternoon, resolving. So to answer the question, we

    11 will proceed on -- our intention is to proceed on

    12 Monday, with witnesses who have been subject to

    13 subpoena, for that one day only. We have the other

    14 witness that we would be seeking to take the evidence

    15 from, Professor Economides. Professor Gow we have been

    16 able to move to another week.

    17 I say this, your Honour, knowing that I have not

    18 got your Honour's leave to call these witnesses, but,

    19 because I have been asked a question about timing, this

    20 is our plan. So Professor Gow would go over to the

    21 following week, and we would proceed on Monday with

    22 these witnesses, and then the next witness would be

    23 ^ name Professor Economides merely because he needs --

    24 that is the only time he has available to testify. Then

    25 we would resume with the witnesses subject to subpoena.

  127. 1 Then, on the following Monday, the evidence of

    2 Gow. That is about the best estimate I am able to give

    3 at the moment.

    4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, there is a concern with respect

    5 to Professor Gow that I want to bring to the attention

    6 of the Trial Chamber so it does not look like we are

    7 sneaking up on the Trial Chamber in some way. There is

    8 an enormous list of publications by Dr. Gow regarding

    9 the war in Yugoslavia. We would be remiss in our duties

    10 to our clients if we did not acquire copies of all those

    11 publications and study them before cross-examining him.

    12 We have been unwilling to expend the Tribunal's money in

    13 gathering those documents. It will be a very, very

    14 expensive process, until the issue of whether or not the

    15 Trial Chamber is going to permit the Prosecution to call

    16 him or not has been decided. And so there is a timing

    17 problem that I would like the Chamber to be aware of.

    18 The documents are very, very extensive, and very, very

    19 expensive to gather together. That is a concern we are

    20 all sharing at this point.

    21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you really need every publication?

    22 MR. ACKERMAN: Not every publication, just every writing that

    23 he has done with regard to the war in Yugoslavia. I do

    24 not care about his writings about the Gulf war, but his

    25 writings about Yugoslavia I would like ...

  128. 1 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if it helped the court, I can say

    2 that there are 15 writings in the Jayne’s' publications

    3 alone related to Yugoslavia. But I also have a concern

    4 related to Professor Economides; I spent a good deal of

    5 yesterday on the Internet trying to find out about

    6 Professor Economides and he is supposedly on some

    7 organisation or commission for democracy of law in

    8 Europe, that kind of thing. I found one reference to

    9 Professor Economides, which is he is on some totally

    10 different commission in Europe. I found no references

    11 at all to the Commission for Law and Democracy in

    12 Europe. He is supposedly the reporter for a nationality

    13 citizenship study done by that Commission and I cannot

    14 find anything out about it. I think that would probably

    15 be highly relevant to his testimony. I would sure like

    16 to have that. I cannot find it.

    17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are doubting his expertise?

    18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, you know what I know about him.

    19 I just told you everything I know about the man.

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you fear that he might be useful why

    21 do you bother?

    22 MR. MORAN: Like I say, your Honour, it would be useful to me

    23 if he had some prior writings on this subject.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thus if he has no real authority on

    25 what he is saying, why do you think about that?

  129. 1 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, your Honour.

    2 MR. NIEMANN: To assist Mr. Moran on this matter, he is on the

    3 United Nations International Law Commission.

    4 MR. MORAN: I understand he is now on the ILC, but that

    5 documents given to us by the Office of the Prosecutor,

    6 relayed to me by Mr. Ackerman while I was in Houston,

    7 listed this other organisation that I cannot find

    8 anything about, and that he was the reporter for a study

    9 that was done on nationalities and citizenship. I think

    10 that would probably be one of the documents I would like

    11 to get my hands on. If the Prosecutor has it, I would

    12 be happy to borrow it ...

    13 MR. NIEMANN: I do not have it. If I can obtain access to

    14 it, I would be quite happy to share it.

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What we are not sure is are the Defence

    16 willing to argue the motion for allowing the experts to

    17 be called? I think that makes life easier.

    18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would be prepared to do it at 10

    19 o'clock tomorrow morning. There is a document sitting

    20 in my hotel room that I would like to be able to copy

    21 and hand to the Trial Chamber, that relates, I think,

    22 directly to one of the two proposed experts.

    23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So we will dispose of it tomorrow

    24 morning. Then we will know where we stand. Okay. The

    25 Trial Chamber will now rise.

  130. 1 (5.35 pm)

    2 (Adjourned until 10.00 am

    3 on Thursday, 23rd October, 1997)