The International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Case No.IT-96-21

  1. 1 Monday, 27th October 1997

    2 (10.00 am)

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

    4 Can we kindly have the appearances, please.

    5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour pleases, my name is Grant Niemann

    6 and I appear with my colleague Mr. Khan for the

    7 Prosecution.

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Appearances for the Defence.

    9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours. I am Edina

    10 Residovic, appearing on behalf of Mr. Zejnil Delalic

    11 together with my colleague Eugene O'Sullivan, professor

    12 from Canada.

    13 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning. I am Zeljko Olujic appearing on

    14 behalf of Mr. Zdravko Mucic together with my co-counsel

    15 Michael Greaves, attorney from the United Kingdom of

    16 Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    17 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honour. I am Salih

    18 Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, appearing on behalf of

    19 Mr. Hazim Delic, together with Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney

    20 from Houston Texas.

    21 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning. I am John Ackerman and along

    22 with Cynthia McMurrey we appear on behalf of Mr. Esad

    23 Landzo.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we now have the witness?

    25 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. Perhaps before the witness

  2. 1 comes in, your Honours, it is our intention after this

    2 witness to call a witness in relation to records,

    3 custodian of records from Sarajevo. If this witness is

    4 not completed by tomorrow morning I will make an

    5 application to interpose General Divjak on this witness

    6 because General Divjak has some commitments which he is

    7 unable to move commencing on Thursday morning first

    8 thing. So if your Honours please, I just wish to

    9 indicate that will be an application I will make should

    10 it become necessary. It may not become necessary. I do

    11 not expect the custodian of records will take that long,

    12 certainly not in chief anyway.

    13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it was our understanding that

    14 Mr. Economides would be here on Tuesday and that was the

    15 only day he could appear; has that changed?

    16 MR. NIEMANN: It has your Honour, Professor Economides is

    17 available on Thursday which gives us better time to

    18 accommodate General Divjak, so he will be available on

    19 Thursday. I am also able to announce to the Chamber

    20 that we have secured some articles written by

    21 Professor Economides which are being copied and will be

    22 made available to the Defence as soon as possible this

    23 morning.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Ackerman, does that satisfy you?

    25 MR. ACKERMAN: (Nods).

  3. 1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us have the witness.

    2 (Witness enters court)

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, General. You are still

    4 under cross-examination. Please remind him he is still

    5 on his oath.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: I am reminding you, sir, that you are still

    7 under oath.

    8 GENERAL ARIF PASALIC (continued)

    9 Cross-examination by MS. RESIDOVIC (continued)

    10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honours.

    11 Good morning, General. At the beginning of my

    12 cross-examination on Thursday I drew your attention to

    13 the problems of communication and I think we functioned

    14 very well, because you waited for the interpretation of

    15 my questions into English. Will you please bear that in

    16 mind today as well.

    17 Secondly, I should like to ask you, General, in

    18 the interest of expediency with respect to this part of

    19 the cross-examination, will you please answer my

    20 questions as concisely as possible, if possible with yes

    21 and no, when that is possible, of course. If brief

    22 explanation is necessary of course feel free to make

    23 them, but for any lengthier explanations we may come

    24 back to that at the end of the cross-examination.

    25 Also, for your benefit I should like to add that

  4. 1 I noticed on Thursday that you wanted to ask some

    2 questions; according to the rules of this Tribunal it is

    3 the attorney who asks the questions and the witness who

    4 answers. We are not in a position to change those

    5 rules. I think we have now explained some additional

    6 procedural matters.

    7 Have I made myself clear?

    8 A. Yes, I have understood.

    9 Q. General, we broke off on Thursday when we were

    10 discussing the criminal charges which you or somebody on

    11 your behalf issued on 22nd December, 1992, against

    12 Zejnil Delalic and Zdravko Mucic. Do you remember that

    13 is where we interrupted our conversation?

    14 A. Yes, I do.

    15 Q. The witness' microphone is not switched on, or something

    16 is wrong.

    17 I should like to suggest that we discuss further

    18 the investigation that you instructed the commission to

    19 carry out when you became Corps Commander at the end of

    20 1992, and when you heard about various irregularities in

    21 Konjic. You have already said quite a bit about that in

    22 answer to the question of the Prosecutor, as well as in

    23 answer to mine; but I should like to ask you for us to

    24 focus on a few matters still further. To that end,

    25 I would like to ask a representative of the Registry to

  5. 1 show the General, once again, document D141, fully

    2 respecting the limitations indicated by the Prosecutor

    3 in connection with this document.

    4 General, we were discussing this document only to

    5 a limited extent. We will be speaking only about the

    6 names that appear or do not appear in this document,

    7 regarding the positions and responsibilities held by the

    8 names indicated in that document. Is that clear?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. The Prosecutor showed you this document on Wednesday or

    11 Thursday, do you remember that?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. It is criminal charges dated 22nd December, 1992, is

    14 that not so?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. General, can you tell the court whether it is true that

    17 these are the only charges which you or anybody else

    18 submitted on your behalf against Zejnil Delalic?

    19 A. As far as I am concerned as Corps Commander, and my

    20 command, I think that these were the only criminal

    21 charges pressed.

    22 Q. Though on Thursday, at my request, as well as at the

    23 request of my learned colleague the Prosecutor, you read

    24 the text, I should like to ask you to read very

    25 carefully the text of these charges, not to mention

  6. 1 anything regarding the contents, just to read it for

    2 yourself, and to pay attention to the limited scope of

    3 the questions I am going to ask you, that is the names

    4 of the persons, their positions, and their

    5 responsibilities. (Pause).

    6 A. I have read it.

    7 Q. Thank you. Is it true, General, that in this document,

    8 the criminal charges, the following names appear: Zejnil

    9 Delalic and Zdravko Mucic, against whom the criminal

    10 charges have been brought, and in connection with which

    11 your commission elucidated certain irregularities, is

    12 that true?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. I do not wish to mention any names; but will you please

    15 tell me, General, is it true that in this document not a

    16 single name is indicated of a member of Serbian

    17 ethnicity, of a person of Serbian ethnicity?

    18 A. I do not know what they are of ethnicity, but judging by

    19 their names and surnames I think not.

    20 Q. Is it also true, General, that you have indicated -- you

    21 have not indicated in this document anywhere the words

    22 "Serbian prisoner"?

    23 A. No, those words are not mentioned.

    24 Q. General, to eliminate any possible misunderstanding or

    25 confusion, will you confirm the following: neither you

  7. 1 nor your commission, since these were the only charges,

    2 ever pressed charges against Zejnil Delalic in

    3 connection with any criminal offences against prisoners

    4 of Serb ethnicity, is that correct?

    5 A. Correct.

    6 Q. General, do you recall that you said before this Trial

    7 Chamber, that at the end of 1992 there were reports in

    8 the media that you had allegedly claimed that Zejnil

    9 Delalic, at the end of November 1992, had fled to the

    10 Serb side, and, as reported in the press at the time, he

    11 fled by means of a Serb helicopter; is that not what you

    12 said in answer to a question by the Prosecutor?

    13 A. Yes, I said that there were various reports; among

    14 others, there was one to that effect.

    15 Q. However, even though this was an article, and there were

    16 such articles, particularly in the Croatian press, you

    17 can assert before this Trial Chamber that you never said

    18 anything of the like and that that is either slander or

    19 propaganda?

    20 A. I could not have said where Zejnil Delalic went until

    21 I received specific information about it. I do not know

    22 where the information came from that appeared in the

    23 press.

    24 Q. Though, as far as you remember, there were various media

    25 reporting on this, mostly the Croatian media. What they

  8. 1 had in common was that Delalic and Mucic had fled over

    2 to the Serb side?

    3 A. I cannot exactly remember which media carried such

    4 reports.

    5 Q. But they said that they had fled to the Serb side, did

    6 they not?

    7 A. I cannot remember exactly what they said. There were

    8 various assumptions and various reports in the press,

    9 either to the Serbian territory or Croatian territory.

    10 I had no opportunity to follow those reports in view of

    11 what was happening down there at the time.

    12 Q. Thank you, General. To avoid spending too much time on

    13 media reports in wartime, but I would like us to go back

    14 to some more specific issues now. In answer to a

    15 question of the Prosecution you said that by pressing

    16 charges you did not wish to prejudge the outcome?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Is it true, General, that in our country criminal

    19 proceedings are conducted by courts?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Is it true, General, that criminal proceedings are

    22 conducted upon the request of an authorised prosecutor's

    23 office?

    24 A. I am not very knowledgeable regarding legal procedure.

    25 I know that it was my duty to bring criminal charges for

  9. 1 the persons that I felt this was warranted. What the

    2 further proceedings of the prosecution and the court

    3 are, I do not know.

    4 Q. Thank you. Is it true that in answer to a question put

    5 to you in this Trial Chamber you said that at the time

    6 when you came to Konjic there was no court or

    7 prosecutor's office which could prosecute such persons?

    8 A. I was ordered and given the suggestion that I should

    9 issue those charges and submit them to the district

    10 military prosecutor's office in Mostar.

    11 Q. The district military prosecutor's office in Mostar, and

    12 the district military tribunal in Mostar were

    13 institutions that were operational at the time, were

    14 they not?

    15 A. My orders were to submit them to the prosecution.

    16 Whether they were operational, I do not know.

    17 Q. General, even though perhaps you are no expert in legal

    18 matters, just as I am no expert in military matters,

    19 still there are some things that you know as a citizen.

    20 You must know that when proceedings are instituted

    21 against a person the upshot may be either the release,

    22 acquittal of that person, or his sentencing?

    23 A. Probably so.

    24 Q. Acquittal may be achieved if the prosecutor withdraws

    25 charges, or the court passes such a decision. But in

  10. 1 any event, it is the court that decides to interrupt

    2 proceedings or acquit somebody of the charges?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. I should now like to ask the witness to be shown a

    5 document that the Prosecutor has a copy of; and could a

    6 copy be given to the Trial Chamber, and the Prosecution,

    7 so I may put some additional questions? Can you,

    8 please, tell me the number of this document?

    9 THE REGISTRAR: Defence document D82/1.

    10 MS. RESIDOVIC: General, will you please read this document

    11 carefully, and bear in mind the limitations that

    12 I referred to earlier on.

    13 A. I have read it.

    14 Q. General, in the case of this document too we shall only

    15 be referring to the names appearing in it and the

    16 positions and responsibilities of the persons listed in

    17 that document.

    18 In order to identify the document, will you please

    19 tell me whether, in the top corner of the document, you

    20 find the name of the body that is the district military

    21 court in Mostar, the number of the document, K1/93, the

    22 place and date, that is Mostar, 21st February, 1994. Is

    23 that correct?

    24 A. It is.

    25 Q. Is it correct that in the signature you find the name,

  11. 1 investigating magistrate, Drago Bevanda?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Is it true, General, that with this document the

    4 tribunal is terminating proceedings against Zejnil

    5 Delalic and Zdravko Mucic?

    6 A. Yes, that is a decision to that effect.

    7 Q. Please can the document be returned to the Registry?

    8 General, the names Zejnil Delalic and Zdravko Mucic are

    9 names of persons that your commission investigated in

    10 connection with irregularities that you referred to in

    11 your interview in Jablanica?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. I should now like to ask you, General, to look at

    14 another document. The Prosecutor has a copy and I have

    15 sufficient copies for their Honours, the Prosecution and

    16 the Registry. Could the document be marked, please, and

    17 shown to the witness?

    18 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D83/1.

    19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Will you please read this document too,

    20 bearing in mind the limitations that we have discussed.

    21 A. I have read it.

    22 Q. In order to identify the document, is it true that in

    23 the left corner of this document is the name of the

    24 body, military prosecutor's office, Mostar, number

    25 KT123/92, Mostar, 18th February 1994? Is that correct?

  12. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Is this document signed by the public prosecutor Mladen

    3 Jurisic?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Does this document whereby the prosecutor is proposing

    6 the charges, do you find the names Zejnil Delalic and

    7 Zdravko Mucic?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. In this document their positions or responsibilities are

    10 not indicated, are they?

    11 A. No, they are not.

    12 Q. Those are the same persons that your commission

    13 investigated in connection with certain irregularities

    14 that you referred to in your interview in Jablanica, did

    15 you not?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Can the document be returned to the Registry, please?

    18 General, are you aware that in our country persons

    19 may ask the appropriate court for information as to

    20 whether any criminal proceedings are being conducted

    21 against them?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Do you know that the security services in our country

    24 keep records of any punishment pronounced against any

    25 persons?

  13. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Counsel, I should like to show you some documents to

    3 examine. I have sufficient number of copies for you,

    4 the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution, so could the

    5 usher show the documents to the witness?

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D84/1.

    7 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise. I think we have not provided

    8 the English translation as well, so could those be given

    9 to the Trial Chamber as well, please?

    10 General, will you please look at the document

    11 dated 7th April, 1994?

    12 A. I have looked at it.

    13 Q. On this piece of paper you have two certificates, do you

    14 not?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. The top certificate has an indication in the left-hand

    17 corner, the name of the body that issue it, Republic of

    18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, basic court in Konjic, the number of

    19 the document, the time and place when it was issued,

    20 Konjic, 7th April, 1994. Is that true?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. At the bottom of this certificate, you see the stamp of

    23 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina of the basic court in

    24 Konjic, is that not so?

    25 A. Yes.

  14. 1 Q. The document was signed on behalf of the President of

    2 the court, by Sajin Aida -- at the bottom you see

    3 another certificate issued by the district military

    4 court in Mostar, department Konjic?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. This document too was issued in Konjic on 7th April,

    7 1994?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And at the bottom you see the stamp of the Republic of

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the district military tribunal in

    11 Mostar, department Konjic?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. This certificate has also been signed by the head of the

    14 department, has it not? The signature is for, on behalf

    15 of the head of the department?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. In view of the fact that you have read both these

    18 certificates, is it true to say, General, that these

    19 courts indicated in the heading of the certificate

    20 confirmed that on 7th April, 1994 no criminal

    21 proceedings were conducted before these courts against

    22 Zejnil Delalic?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Will you, please, General, now look at the document

    25 dated 4th April, 1995? This document has been copied in

  15. 1 two ways, twice actually by mistake, so you can now have

    2 a look at whichever one is more legible.

    3 A. I have looked at the documents.

    4 Q. Is it true, General, that in the top left corner of this

    5 certificate there is the name of the organ and that is

    6 the district military court in Mostar, Konjic

    7 department?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Is it true that there is also the number of the

    10 certificate, the place and the date of the issuance,

    11 Konjic, 4th April, 1995?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Is it true that in the left -- in the right corner of

    14 this certificate there is the name of the organ, the

    15 basic court in Konjic, and the number under which this

    16 certificate has been registered?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Is it true that below the certificate there are stamps

    19 of the district military tribunal in Mostar, Konjic

    20 department, and the stamp of the basic court in Konjic?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Is it true that this certificate has been signed by the

    23 head of the department, Sulejman Bajric, and the

    24 President of the Basic Court, Halil Gagula?

    25 A. Yes, that is correct.

  16. 1 Q. Is it true that by this certificate these courts confirm

    2 that on 4th April, 1995 no criminal proceedings were

    3 conducted against Zejnil Delalic before those courts, is

    4 that correct?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Thank you. Could these documents please be returned to

    7 the Registry.

    8 I would now like to ask you, General, to have a

    9 look at the following document. I have sufficient

    10 number of copies in Bosnian and English for the Trial

    11 Chamber, and I would like the original of the

    12 certificate to be shown to the witness.

    13 THE REGISTRAR: Defence document 85/1.

    14 Have you read the document?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Is it true, General, that this certificate was issued by

    17 the district military tribunal in Mostar, and the number

    18 and the date is the 16th May, 1996, indicated at the top

    19 left corner of this document?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Is it true, General, that at the bottom of the

    22 certificate there is the stamp of the republic of

    23 Bosnian Herzegovina district military tribunal, Mostar?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Is it true that this certificate was signed by the

  17. 1 President of the tribunal, Asim Suta?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Is it true that the certificate confirms that Zejnil

    4 Delalic is not subject to any criminal proceedings and

    5 that he has not been entered in the criminal records of

    6 the court, of the Tribunal?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Please, I would like this document to be returned to the

    9 Registry.

    10 I would like to show you another document,

    11 General. I have a sufficient number of copies for the

    12 Trial Chamber and for the Prosecution, and the

    13 Prosecutor is in possession of this document. I would

    14 like this document to be numbered.

    15 THE REGISTRAR: This is the Exhibit D86/1.

    16 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, may I raise a matter?

    17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.

    18 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, there has been a succession of

    19 these documents shown to the witness and in many

    20 respects this witness is not a terribly appropriate

    21 witness to be dealing with them. I have not objected,

    22 but I do question the relevance of it, in view of the

    23 basis on which the Prosecution at least has sought to

    24 tender the original exhibits which dealt with these

    25 proceedings. We have seen a -- I mean, I have raised no

  18. 1 objection because I assumed counsel wanted to make it

    2 clear that proceedings did not go ahead. I have no

    3 problem with that. How much more are we to receive of

    4 these sorts of documents on what is ultimately an

    5 irrelevant issue?

    6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, have you any answers to that?

    7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I showed the original of the

    8 document to the witness this time. We do not expect the

    9 witness to verify these documents at all, and as you can

    10 see I did not tender them as evidence. This is the last

    11 document in this series, and I have limited myself with

    12 regard to all these documents only to the name of Zejnil

    13 Delalic, which appears in these documents.

    14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually the observation is as to the

    15 relevance of them. If they are relevant to the question

    16 you are asking then there might be some point. What is

    17 your intention? What are you trying to show that they

    18 represent?

    19 MS. RESIDOVIC: They represent an answer to some of the

    20 questions, some of the issues raised by the Prosecutor

    21 when he discussed with this witness the commission and

    22 the interview shown before this Trial Chamber, since all

    23 of these documents contain the name of Zejnil Delalic,

    24 and it may have some relation to the evidence presented

    25 by the Prosecutor before this Trial Chamber. This is

  19. 1 where we see the relevance of the documents we have

    2 shown here.

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, of course. It depends on the way

    4 you consider your own case. If all the earlier

    5 documents you are showing was that a person of that name

    6 and title -- that might be relevant, and you might have

    7 been able to show that this is an equation of that same

    8 name and title. It does not go further than that. I do

    9 not think they show anything more than that.

    10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, on Wednesday and Thursday we

    11 saw that in relation to the contents of the documents we

    12 have limited our examination to the -- only to the name

    13 of Zejnil Delalic and this witness has been shown a

    14 large number of documents and since this witness has

    15 confirmed that these issues were -- documents were

    16 issued by the bodies named on these documents. He can

    17 just confirm to us that these are the documents which

    18 are usually issued by such bodies at that time, and that

    19 these documents contain the name of Zejnil Delalic; and

    20 this is precisely what you suggested to us when we

    21 raised certain objections to some documents being shown

    22 to this witness while he was being questioned.

    23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: As I said, I do not think one really

    24 minds but it is merely confirming what the

    25 Prosecution said.

  20. 1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

    2 General, have you looked at this document; and of

    3 course, as I have already explained to you on Thursday,

    4 I do not want you to confirm the validity of any of

    5 these documents because you were not the person who

    6 issued them. Can you please tell me whether this

    7 document was issued by the Ministry of the Interior

    8 security services centre, Mostar, Konjic public security

    9 station?

    10 A. This is what it says in the heading.

    11 Q. Is it true that this document was signed by the chief

    12 Amir Begic as indicated at the bottom of the document?

    13 A. Yes, this is what it says.

    14 Q. Is it true that this document mentions the name of

    15 Zejnil Delalic?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. And according to this document he does not have a

    18 criminal record of previous convictions?

    19 A. This is what it says in the text.

    20 Q. Thank you.

    21 I would like this document to be returned to the

    22 Registry.

    23 General, I would like to ask you now to go back to

    24 some other issues that you have discussed in part before

    25 this Trial Chamber. Is it true that you said that you

  21. 1 had been to Konjic on several occasions and that you had

    2 discussed some issues with Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic, the

    3 chairman of the municipality, is that correct?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. In that period you also talked to Jasmin Guska, who was

    6 the acting chief of the Ministry of the Interior in

    7 Konjic?

    8 A. I think I only met him once and it was a very brief

    9 meeting.

    10 Q. That is what you said when the Prosecutor asked you

    11 that, but I would like you to be more specific and to

    12 agree with me, if possible; is it true that MUP,

    13 Ministry of the Interior, had its own chain of command

    14 and that at that time it did not accept to be placed

    15 under the overall command of the military armed forces?

    16 A. It is not true that they did not place itself under the

    17 command of the armed forces. MUP, Ministry of the

    18 Interior, is a constituent part of the armed forces.

    19 The securities services centre in Mostar and the public

    20 security station in Konjic was part of that -- according

    21 to the Armed Forces Act of Bosnian Herzegovina was a

    22 part of the armed forces.

    23 Q. I am referring to that period in time, that is the

    24 beginning and mid 1992, when that Act was not in force

    25 at the time. Is it true that the Ministry of the

  22. 1 Interior had its own chain of command and it was

    2 subordinated to the Ministry of the Interior?

    3 A. It probably had its own chain of command, but I cannot

    4 tell you anything about that.

    5 Q. When you passed through Konjic, you probably talked to

    6 Dinko Zebic, the HVO commander, and Ivica Azinovic, his

    7 deputy, and President of the HVO, which was equivalent

    8 to the War Presidency in Konjic. Did you talk to them?

    9 A. I do not remember having talked to them. I only visited

    10 the municipal headquarters in Konjic once with Jasmin

    11 Jaganjac. We did not find anyone there except for some

    12 soldiers who were on guard duty. I did not talk to the

    13 representatives of the HVO in Konjic at all in 1992.

    14 Q. General, you can confirm that you know the commanders of

    15 the Territorial Defence headquarters, Mirsad Catic and

    16 Esad Ramic?

    17 A. Yes, I met them during the war.

    18 Q. You can confirm, surely, that Zejnil Delalic was not a

    19 commander of the municipal headquarters of the

    20 Territorial Defence in Konjic, is that correct?

    21 A. I do not know whether he was a commander or not. I know

    22 that Esad Ramic was a commander and later on it was

    23 Mirsad Catic.

    24 Q. I would like now to ask you to look at a document. I

    25 have a sufficient number of copies -- number of copies

  23. 1 both in Bosnian and in English. The Prosecution is in

    2 possession of this document.

    3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D87/1.

    4 A. I have read the document.

    5 MS. RESIDOVIC: General, you know Commander Mustafa

    6 Polutak?

    7 A. Yes, I do know him.

    8 Q. You know that in 1996 he was the Commander of the

    9 4th Corps of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Is it true, General, that this document was issued by

    12 the command of the 4th Corps, headquartered in Jablanica

    13 on 22nd May, 1992, as it is indicated in the top left

    14 corner?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Is it true that at the bottom of this document there is

    17 a stamp of the 4th Corps command and the signature of the

    18 Commander, Mustafa Polutak?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Is it true that in this document the name of Zejnil

    21 Delalic is mentioned and that on the basis of the

    22 existing documents it is indicated that he has not been

    23 named as the Commander of the TO in 1992?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. I would like the document now

  24. 1 to be returned to the Registry.

    2 Your Honours, bearing in mind the time and the

    3 fact that I am about to start a new line of questioning,

    4 maybe it would be advisable to have a break now?

    5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You still have 20 minutes to continue.

    6 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise.

    7 General, the Prosecutor showed you a document

    8 yesterday, it was a document by General Blaskic

    9 regarding the situation in central Bosnia. It is the

    10 Prosecution Exhibit number 78, and I would like you to

    11 have a look at it?

    12 A. It was on Thursday.

    13 MR. NIEMANN: Excuse me, your Honour, it does not appear to

    14 be exhibit 78.

    15 MS. RESIDOVIC: 188. Well, it seems that there is a

    16 problem with the interpretation, but I think that the

    17 Registry understands me well and that they have

    18 presented the witness with the right document.

    19 This document, according to what is stated in the

    20 document, was signed by Colonel Tihomir Blaskic, was it

    21 not?

    22 A. Yes, that is what it says.

    23 Q. This report also has to do for the period between 5th

    24 and 10th August 1992, as indicated under point 1?

    25 A. Yes.

  25. 1 Q. You have spoken about that, and will you please confirm

    2 that it was precisely in this period of time that heavy

    3 fighting was going on in order to lift the blockade of

    4 Sarajevo in the area of Igman, Pazaric and Ormanja --

    5 that is in the area belonging to the area of

    6 responsibility of Zejnil Delalic as Commander of

    7 Tactical Group 1, is that not so?

    8 A. Yes, precisely in that period in August.

    9 Q. Is it also true, General, that this area of

    10 responsibility physically and territorially, if I may

    11 say so, bordered on the area of responsibility of

    12 Kiseljak, which was under the command of General

    13 Blaskic?

    14 A. The areas of responsibility of the operative zone,

    15 operative groups of the HVO and our own, that is of the

    16 BiH army and the Tactical Groups, overlapped, and this

    17 also applied to this area of responsibility.

    18 Q. Also on Thursday you referred to certain disputes and

    19 obstructions put up at the time by the HVO?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. You are surely aware that at that time in the area of

    22 Igman and Trnovo, the Commander of Tactical Group 2 was

    23 Mirsad Catic?

    24 A. I cannot confirm that he was the commander, but I know

    25 that there were struggles to lift the blockade of

  26. 1 Sarajevo. Who was in charge of the Tactical Group, this

    2 can surely be checked in documents.

    3 Q. Can you confirm that at the heat of those battles our

    4 units were obstructed from passing from Visoko and

    5 Fojnica towards the battle front within the area of

    6 responsibility of Tactical Group 1?

    7 A. Regarding such obstructions of the movement of BiH army

    8 units, I heard about them, but I am not familiar with

    9 the details.

    10 Q. Did you also hear that between the 4th and the 8th

    11 August, in Kiseljak, the Commander of the TO

    12 headquarters, Sead Sinanbasic, members of the staff,

    13 were arrested and the public security station and the TO

    14 headquarters were seized?

    15 A. Yes, I heard about those arrests, but I am not familiar

    16 with the details concerning those arrested.

    17 Q. Is it true, General, that all those activities and

    18 obstructive efforts were a hindrance and obstructed the

    19 efforts of our fighters to lift the blockade of

    20 Sarajevo?

    21 A. Certainly they did.

    22 Q. Do you know Semsudin Hasic?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Is it true that he was Chief of Staff of the 1st Mostar

    25 Brigade?

  27. 1 A. He was for a time.

    2 Q. Will you please look at the next document, of which we

    3 have sufficient copies in English and Bosnian, so could

    4 they be identified and marked and shown to the witness?

    5 THE REGISTRAR: The document is D88/1.

    6 A. I have read it.

    7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Before I ask you any questions about this

    8 document, I want to ask you something which may be quite

    9 clear, but as a layman not quite. Is it true, General,

    10 that a superior military officer addressing a

    11 subordinate officer or any other subordinate uses

    12 orders, requests and commands?

    13 A. Will you please repeat that question?

    14 Q. A commander or a senior officer in the military, when

    15 addressing any subordinate, an officer, a senior officer

    16 or a soldier, does he do so by issuing orders or

    17 commands?

    18 A. Yes, generally speaking, yes.

    19 Q. General, at the top of this document you see the

    20 heading, "the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina army of

    21 Bosnia-Herzegovina 1st Mostar Brigade", is that not so?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. That is the Brigade that you headed from the middle of

    24 July, when it was formed, until you became Corps

    25 Commander, is that not so?

  28. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. As you have already indicated, at the time your Chief of

    3 Staff was Semsudin Hasic, was he not?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. In answer to a question from the Prosecution on Thursday

    6 -- Wednesday and Thursday, you said that when passing

    7 through Konjic you most frequently discussed with

    8 persons you met the needs regarding defence and any

    9 possible exchange of those resources or needs?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. This document, which was addressed by the 1st Mostar

    12 Brigade to Mr. Zejnil Delalic in person, is it one of

    13 those documents whereby you are asking a certain amount

    14 of ammunition to be provided to you?

    15 A. Yes, we did ask for ammunition.

    16 Q. Do you, General, know Major Sefkija Kevric, assistant

    17 for logistics of the municipal TO staff in Konjic at the

    18 time?

    19 A. I met him later.

    20 Q. Is it true, General, that the signature of this

    21 hand-written text, Delalic, Zejnil, is asking this person

    22 to meet, asking Sefkija Kevric to meet your requirement?

    23 A. Yes, that is what it says.

    24 Q. Does it follow from the contents of this request,

    25 General, that Zejnil Delalic, in this period too, that

  29. 1 is 10th November 1992, was in a certain sense engaged

    2 with logistical issues?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Thank you. General, I apologise, I seem to be losing my

    5 tie.

    6 In the course of your examination-in-chief, the

    7 Prosecutor showed you a number of documents that were

    8 hand-written. Is it true, General, that you do not know

    9 who, when or on what occasion compiled and wrote those

    10 documents? There were several documents that were

    11 hand-written by somebody?

    12 A. I do not know which documents you are referring to you.

    13 There were such documents that were shown to me that the

    14 signature is not legible, nor the stamp, nor is it

    15 certified.

    16 Q. So when those documents were shown to you, you did not

    17 in any sense identify or authenticate those documents?

    18 MR. NIEMANN: I object to the question and that broad a way

    19 of putting it. I have no objection to a question, "you

    20 did not authenticate the writing"; certainly I did not

    21 ask this witness to identify the writing. I asked

    22 certain questions about the documents. I object to the

    23 question on the basis of its width. I do not object to

    24 a question about whether or not he was asked or whether

    25 he can authenticate. It was never suggested he could.

  30. 1 JUDGE JAN: Perhaps you could ask whether he is acquainted

    2 with this handwriting.

    3 MR. NIEMANN: I did not ask that. She is certainly entitled

    4 to ask it. I would not object to that, your Honours.

    5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I have no further questions

    6 regarding those documents. I just wanted to make it

    7 clear precisely what my learned colleague the Prosecutor

    8 has just said. I accept the objection this time.

    9 General, the Prosecutor showed you a document

    10 marked D189, so could it be shown to the General once

    11 again, please?

    12 THE REGISTRAR: It is Prosecution document 189.

    13 MS. RESIDOVIC: In connection with the questions put to you

    14 regarding this document by the Prosecution, could you

    15 please answer a number of other questions?

    16 You said, General, that from the second half of

    17 1992 the HVO used various Croatian media, the

    18 television, to spread some misinformation, slanders and

    19 abuses regarding both the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

    20 the Bosniak people?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Since at the time you were in the hottest, if I might

    23 call it that, area, you certainly watched those

    24 programmes and read those reports?

    25 A. I did follow as much as I could.

  31. 1 Q. You certainly are familiar with the name Smiljko Sagolj?

    2 A. Yes, a journalist of Bosnia-Herzegovina television, if

    3 he is the one you are referring to.

    4 Q. Yes. You know that in his propaganda programmes he

    5 often used falsified data and information, false data

    6 and information?

    7 A. I do not know what he used, but I know that some of his

    8 information was not true.

    9 Q. At the time, we ordinary citizens and I am sure you too

    10 were able to see this, were shown a document, an alleged

    11 leaflet in which the Muslims are called upon to

    12 slaughter and at the end a gross error is made in

    13 respect of Allahu Ekber -- a gross error was made?

    14 A. I do not recall that.

    15 Q. Thank you. You know who Slobodan Praljak was, General?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. You also know who Bozo Rajic was?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. You also know Zonko Siljak?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. All these people were officials in the HVO of the

    22 Croatian community of Herceg Bosna, so-called?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. And their stamps figure on the documents. General, you

    25 told the Trial Chamber about the conflict in Prozor?

  32. 1 A. I spoke of an aggression against Prozor, not a conflict.

    2 Q. Yes, I had wanted you to repeat what you said on

    3 Thursday in answer to a question by my learned friend.

    4 You certainly know that at the time the Chief of Staff

    5 of the BiH army in Prozor was Muharem Sabic?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Could I now ask the technical services to show a

    8 videotape, cassette number 3, clip 1 and 2, so that the

    9 witness could identify the person in the video and that

    10 I may ask him some questions regarding it? The

    11 Prosecutor has this video. Could we ask the technical

    12 services to show clip 1 and 2, cassette number 2,

    13 Muharem Sabic. Could the text be translated as the

    14 witness has already commented on these facts?

    15 The interpreters do not have a text.

    16 THE INTERPRETER: (translating videotape).

    17 "... forty kilometres of march. My departure

    18 from the municipality of Prozor when Prozor fell after

    19 the HVO units captured the area -- after a 40 kilometre

    20 march, as I have said, and after passing the mountains

    21 and creeks, I reached free territory to inform the

    22 domestic and world public opinion of the truth as

    23 regards what happened in Prozor.

    24 "The attack by HVO units against the town of

    25 Prozor started on 23rd October 1992 about 5 pm. Before

  33. 1 that we had a meeting of the War Presidency when we were

    2 to discuss current problems in the municipality. Until

    3 the mentioned day we had jointly dealt with combat tasks

    4 on the battle front. We fought together against the

    5 Chetniks. All areas, parts of the Prozor municipality

    6 were liberated from the Chetniks so the aggressor's boot

    7 never entered our municipality.

    8 "During the last ten days problems arose between

    9 the HVO and the TO of Prozor, or rather the army of

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. What the causes were I do not know,

    11 but I know the consequences. As I have already said,

    12 the town itself was seized by the HVO, but not the whole

    13 municipality. Before a column of refugees old men,

    14 women and children left as their agreements were reached

    15 at the War Presidency how to overcome current problems,

    16 the stay of a Brigade and a special unit that was to

    17 pass through our municipality to go to Novi Travnik.

    18 "What its mission was, I do not know. I was told

    19 at the time that it was agreed that the main staff of

    20 the armed forces, that that unit should pass through the

    21 territory of our municipality to reach Novi Travnik. In

    22 that connection I sent a telegram to the main staff and

    23 the answer was that no such agreement was reached, that

    24 that unit was not to have passed for Novi Travnik.

    25 "This unit and group, who behaved in an unruly

  34. 1 manner, raised tension in the town. They captured

    2 certain strategic points in the town such as the old

    3 courthouse and some other facilities and they set up new

    4 checkpoints which had not existed before. Earlier the

    5 checkpoints were held by mixed military police of the

    6 HVO and the BiH army and there were no major problems

    7 and there are records to show this, that this was just

    8 an excuse or a pretext for a general attack on Prozor.

    9 "The attack started from all weapons, artillery

    10 pieces and equipment that the HVO had in its

    11 possession. At the beginning some important strategic

    12 points in the town were captured, so as to prevent our

    13 fresh reinforcements from coming in and to prevent the

    14 evacuation of the population and the military in any

    15 direction so that we were absolutely surrounded when the

    16 attack began. When the shooting started from all

    17 possible weapons and guns, we responded and I alerted

    18 all units fully."

    19 MS. RESIDOVIC: The second part, please.

    20 THE INTERPRETER: (Translating videotape).

    21 "Since I was informed that I was being looked for

    22 I took two men as an escort to try to break into free

    23 territory to inform the domestic and world public

    24 opinion as to what was happening. As I had already been

    25 informed that there were various misinformation going

  35. 1 around, that is at 9 o'clock the Commander of the

    2 district court of Zenica, when I realised that our

    3 defences had failed and I tried to address the public

    4 through the media, and I told them what I saw with my

    5 own eyes; that is that children, women, were shot at.

    6 I heard cries of mother's children, et cetera."

    7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I have several

    8 questions in connection with this tape. Shall I begin

    9 now?

    10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, I think we might rise and come back

    11 at 12 o'clock.

    12 (11.27 am)

    13 (Short break)

    14 (12.00 pm)

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The witness is still on his oath, so

    16 tell him.

    17 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you are still under

    18 oath.

    19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.

    20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honour.

    21 General, just before we broke off we watched a

    22 videotape. Do you recognise the person who spoke on

    23 that videotape?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Is that the Commander of the Territorial Defence staff

  36. 1 in Prozor, Mr. Muharem Sabic?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Did Mr. Sabic speak about the events that followed after

    4 the attack on Prozor in this video clip?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. I would first of all like to ask the Registrar to tell

    7 me, what is the number of this clip?

    8 THE REGISTRAR: The video cassette is marked D89/1.

    9 MS. RESIDOVIC: And I would also like to tender this video

    10 clip as evidence, since the witness has recognised the

    11 person and the contents of the speech made by the person

    12 in this videotape.

    13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is submitted.

    14 MS. RESIDOVIC: It is submitted.

    15 General, from what we have heard from Mr. Sabic we

    16 can see that on 23rd October the HVO and parts of the

    17 Croatian army launched an attack or, as you said,

    18 aggression against Prozor, is that correct?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. In this assault tank units led by Ante Smidt also

    21 participated, is that correct?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. At that time the assistance -- the BiH army units from

    24 Jablanica and Konjic could not provide assistance to

    25 Prozor?

  37. 1 A. I know that that assistance never reached that area.

    2 Q. Your Brigade, which was located very far away in Mostar,

    3 and which had a very complicated situation in involving

    4 HVO, was not able to go there, is that correct?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Is it correct that at that time the TV of the Croatian

    7 community Herceg Bosna, and I am referring now to

    8 persons you already mentioned, reporters whom we already

    9 mentioned, launched reports that Muslims attacked Croats

    10 in Prozor and that Zejnil and Halilovic were behind

    11 that; are you aware of such information?

    12 A. Yes, they did carry such reports.

    13 Q. General, you know that this is absolutely untrue?

    14 A. Yes, I was in Prozor on the 26th.

    15 Q. Two or three days after those events, negotiations

    16 started in Prozor, and you also spoke about that in your

    17 interview in Jablanica, is that correct?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. At that time you were not the Commander of the 4th Corps?

    20 A. I was not the Commander of the 4th Corps.

    21 Q. You were still the Commander of the 1st Mostar Brigade?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. On our side Vehbija Karic, member of the Supreme Staff

    24 Command, you and Zejnil Delalic participated in the

    25 negotiations, is that correct?

  38. 1 A. Yes, I also participated.

    2 Q. The Croatian side was represented by Slobodan Praljak,

    3 Bozo Rajic, local HVO commanders and Zvonko Zovko on

    4 behalf of the Konjic HVO, is that correct?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. And HVO dictated the conditions of the negotiations?

    7 A. Yes, it was in a position to do so.

    8 Q. Commander Sabic said that in this video clip, but

    9 I would also like you to confirm that the -- whether you

    10 know that the majority of the Muslim population fled and

    11 was expelled and had to seek refuge in Jablanica?

    12 A. Yes, they were expelled, and I already stated that.

    13 Q. As a member of the commission you received reports about

    14 damage caused to the population of Prozor?

    15 A. Yes, we tried to determine what the damage was.

    16 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise, your Honours, I have not been

    17 able to have some documents translated, because I did

    18 not know that we would be tendering this or that the

    19 Prosecution will be tendering this, so I would just like

    20 to give some information to the witness in order to be

    21 able to ask some questions. So, I would like to have

    22 this report, which is in Bosnian, to be presented to the

    23 witness. I will not be tendering it into evidence, just

    24 as a reminder.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, this makes it very difficult. We

  39. 1 have no idea what the witness is being shown and we are

    2 just left in the dark as to what it is that the witness

    3 is being questioned about. I object to a document that

    4 has not been identified in any way being shown to a

    5 witness when we do not have any translation of it.

    6 I mean, it is very difficult for your Honours, but it

    7 makes it impossible for the Prosecution because we have

    8 no idea what it is.

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you no other way of asking him

    10 questions which make him remember the contents of those

    11 documents?

    12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, I would just like him to have a look,

    13 to be reminded, and I will be asking questions or I can

    14 ask the questions even without the documents, in order

    15 not to complicate matters. Thank you.

    16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There could be a discussion between the

    17 two of you.

    18 MS. RESIDOVIC: General, would you agree with me if I say

    19 that in the reports that your Prozor commission received

    20 indicated the lists of property that was taken from the

    21 citizens, the lists of buildings that were damaged or

    22 ruined, a list of buildings that had been set on fire

    23 and the destruction to other property and information

    24 that you -- the reports that you received, did they

    25 contain this kind of information?

  40. 1 A. Yes.

    2 MS. RESIDOVIC: If I were to tell you that in the reports

    3 dated January 1993, which contain an analysis of the

    4 damage, that it indicates that during the attack on

    5 Konjic 40 privately-owned businesses were destroyed, 110

    6 vehicles stolen, and that 75 houses were burned down in

    7 Prozor -- these are houses owned by Bosniaks -- and that

    8 an additional nine houses were burnt in the hamlet of

    9 Memici; would that be approximately the information you

    10 received while you worked in the commission.

    11 JUDGE JAN: You mean the attack on Prozor; you said attack

    12 on Konjic.

    13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes.

    14 A. Yes, I composed several reports and sent them to the

    15 Supreme Command as regards Prozor. In those reports, we

    16 determined how many people were killed, wounded and

    17 expelled, how many houses were burned, looted, and the

    18 seizure of other property, such as vehicles, machinery,

    19 et cetera. I cannot remember, at this time, the exact

    20 numbers, but I think that the numbers were substantial.

    21 Q. If I understood you correctly, the figures that you gave

    22 in your reports were substantial?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Thank you. In the interview given by Commander Sabic,

    25 have you noticed that Commander Sabic said that after

  41. 1 the attack on Prozor he advised his Superior Command --

    2 that is the district headquarters in Zenica -- about

    3 that?

    4 A. Yes, the municipal TO in Prozor was part of the district

    5 Territorial Defence staff in Zenica.

    6 Q. So despite the fact that Prozor was in the area of

    7 activities of the territorial -- the Tactical Group 1,

    8 it was subordinate to the district headquarters in

    9 Zenica?

    10 A. The municipal headquarters in Prozor was part of the

    11 district Territorial Defence headquarters in Zenica,

    12 becoming a part of the Tactical Group 1, and the

    13 determination of the area of responsibility -- I cannot

    14 specify that. This is contained in certain documents.

    15 This Tactical Group had several directions of activity

    16 towards Prozor, towards Igman and towards Mostar.

    17 Q. Thank you. General, I would like to go back to the

    18 document that was shown to you by the Prosecutor on

    19 Thursday. Is it true that all our commanders in their

    20 documents referred to the "army of Bosnian Herzegovina",

    21 the "HVO", and not to "Muslim forces", "Croatian

    22 forces", is that correct?

    23 A. We never used the term "Muslim forces". There was the

    24 Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which later

    25 became the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and, according to

  42. 1 the Defence Act, there was also the HVO, Croatian

    2 Defence Council, which was the recognised element of the

    3 armed forces.

    4 Q. The document that was shown to you by the Prosecutor is

    5 dated 28th August, 1992. That means two months before

    6 the attack on Prozor, is that correct?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. In the introductory part it uses terms which were never

    9 used by the -- by our forces; that is, "the

    10 Croatian/Muslim conflict", that term is used. Is that

    11 what it says there?

    12 A. I do not have the document with me, but it is probably

    13 what it says.

    14 Q. I ask that document to be brought before the witness.

    15 That is the Prosecution Exhibit 189. Bearing in mind

    16 the terms used by the propaganda of the Croatian

    17 Community of Herceg Bosna, and also in view of what the

    18 text of this order looks like, is it your opinion,

    19 General, that most probably this document is a forgery?

    20 MR. NIEMANN: I object to that, your Honour. I mean, if the

    21 witness is in a position to authenticate the document

    22 which he has never been put into that position, he is

    23 not in a position to say whether or not it represents a

    24 forgery. I do not see that this witness has in any way

    25 been qualified to determine whether or not he can

  43. 1 express an opinion of whether or not it represents a

    2 forgery or not.

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is not a proper question.

    4 JUDGE JAN: Perhaps you can ask whether the document uses

    5 terms which were never used by the Bosnian army or the

    6 TO Defence.

    7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Suppose you ask your question on that

    8 line.

    9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. I have put that question to the

    10 witness and he answered that the BiH army never used the

    11 term "Croatian/Muslim forces" in incidents by the

    12 Territorial Defence and the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    13 Just one more question so there are no

    14 misunderstandings: from the contents of this document

    15 which was allegedly dated two months before the

    16 conflict, or before the attack launched by the HVO, it

    17 is completely illogical, is it not, so?

    18 A. I would have to analyse this document and compare it to

    19 the situation in the field at that time in order to be

    20 able to speak about its -- whether it is logical or

    21 not. As an officer of the army of Bosnian Herzegovina

    22 or the army for the federation, this document is not

    23 logical.

    24 Q. Thank you. We will not dwell on this document any

    25 longer.

  44. 1 Your Honours, I once again find myself in a

    2 situation, since we have been supplied by the Prosecutor

    3 with a certain number of documents originating from the

    4 Croatian Community of Herceg Bosna, and they also asked

    5 several questions relating to that area, I have been

    6 unable to translate these documents supplied to us by

    7 the Prosecutor, nor have we received a translation. So

    8 I will have to adjust my questions to the decision you

    9 have reached a couple of minutes ago when I wanted to

    10 introduce a document without a translation. So you will

    11 have to excuse me if I am not completely precise.

    12 General, the documents of the Croatian Defence

    13 Council and the Croatian Community of Herceg Bosna in

    14 the heading have the Croatian chequer-board symbol at

    15 that time?

    16 A. There was a number of documents, some of them had a

    17 letter-head that contained the chequer-board, some of

    18 them did not. I do not know what document you are

    19 referring to.

    20 Q. The Konjic military police as early as in October 1992,

    21 and probably even before that, adopted a chequer-board as

    22 its symbol. Are you aware of that?

    23 A. No, I do not know about that.

    24 Q. Are you aware that they did not use the symbols, the

    25 emblems of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

  45. 1 A. You mean the Konjic military police?

    2 Q. The Croatian Defence Council of the Croatian Community

    3 of Herceg Bosna?

    4 A. A couple of minutes ago, since I am not allowed to say

    5 things, you present to me a document originating from

    6 the Croatian Community of Herceg Bosna which I , as an

    7 officer of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, do not

    8 recognise. It is a self-styled entity. I do not know

    9 of any examples that HVO units had emblems or stamps of

    10 using the emblems of the Republic of

    11 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That would be the fleur-de-lis.

    12 They only use the chequer-board.

    13 Q. General, I will now read a passage from a document from

    14 the Herceg Stjepan brigade. I would like you to answer

    15 whether such decisions and orders of the HVO did appear

    16 another that time. 15th October, 1992; this was a memo

    17 sent to the Konjic military police, saying that:

    18 "We advise you that on 17th October 1992 all

    19 people in the territory of Konjic and Jablanica who have

    20 approval for movement in the territory of Herceg Bosna

    21 and the Republic of Croatia must have that certificate

    22 certified with the stamp of the Brigade. Persons who

    23 have the approval certified with some other stamp shall

    24 be considered invalid."

    25 Do you know that HVO issued such orders, and

  46. 1 prevented our people from moving -- restricted the

    2 freedom of movement of our people in the so-called

    3 Herceg Bosna? I share your view of its legitimacy.

    4 A. I encountered such instances, even in the 1st Mostar

    5 Brigade area responsibility, and it is true that we were

    6 unable to leave the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

    7 to go over to the neighbouring state of Croatia unless

    8 we had the approval from the Croatian Defence Council to

    9 do so.

    10 Q. Thank you. General, from your experience, you testified

    11 before this court that the freedom of movement for our

    12 convoys was restricted, that they were obstructed?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Were there such orders in the field, orders of the HVO?

    15 I will read the contents, this one is dated 10th October

    16 1992. It says:

    17 "Notification from the Konjic military police that

    18 a convoy, a Red Cross convoy, from Konjic was moving

    19 from Split to Konjic. It contained eight to ten

    20 trucks. It is suspected that arms for the BiH

    21 Territorial Defence are in the trucks. Please intercept

    22 the convoy. The convoy is due to reach Konjic tonight

    23 or the next day. Please report."

    24 This is signed by the commander of military

    25 police, Zeljko Brekalo. My question to you is: from

  47. 1 your experience, are you aware that there were such or

    2 similar orders issued by the HVO for the interception of

    3 convoys?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. General, you said that at the time for which you have

    6 information in Konjic, that is from November on, that

    7 you had information about events that we discussed. But

    8 are you aware that without the approval of the HVO it

    9 was impossible to travel from Konjic through the

    10 territory controlled by the HVO, also in the initial

    11 part of the conflict, I mean the initial period of the

    12 war in Bosnian Herzegovina?

    13 A. Mostly through the territory controlled by the HVO it

    14 was impossible to travel without the laissez passé, or

    15 the approval of the Croatian Defence Council.

    16 Q. I would now like the witness to be shown an

    17 authorisation that is in possession of the Prosecutor

    18 that is dated 2nd May 1992 so that the witness can have

    19 a look at it so I can ask some questions. I have a

    20 sufficient number of copies both for the Trial Chamber

    21 and for the Prosecution, both in Bosnian and in

    22 English.

    23 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 91/1.

    24 A. I have looked at it.

    25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Is it the -- a permission of the HVO, dated

  48. 1 2nd May, 1992?

    2 A. Yes, signed by the staff Commander of Konjic.

    3 Q. The signature, does it indicate the Commander of the

    4 municipal staff, Dinko Zebic, but signed on his behalf

    5 by Ivan Azinovic?

    6 A. Yes, that is what it says.

    7 Q. Is it a permission allowing Mr. Zejnil Delalic to travel

    8 through the territory under the control of the HVO?

    9 A. It does not indicate what area. It is an authorisation

    10 to take over the resources and when it is coming and

    11 when it is going, the convoy.

    12 Q. By its content, is it a similar authorisation that all

    13 of you had to have to cross territory under the control

    14 of the Croatian Defence Council, the HVO?

    15 A. The authorisations did not have a uniform format. They

    16 were made arbitrarily, and this is one example.

    17 Q. Thank you. Could the exhibit be returned to the

    18 Registry, please?

    19 General, I should now like to ask you some

    20 questions about a different topic. You can surely

    21 confirm for the court that the road M17, that is the

    22 road going from Sarajevo to Konjic, is of strategic

    23 military importance?

    24 A. Yes, it was of operational strategic importance for the

    25 state of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

  49. 1 Q. Is it true, General, that you are aware that there was a

    2 plan for strong JNA forces to make a break through at

    3 the beginning of May 1992, forces that were stationed in

    4 Hadzici via Prozor and Bradina to link up with the

    5 Herzegovina Corps at Borci?

    6 A. Yes, we had a report that there were such plans to link

    7 up those forces.

    8 Q. Had that happened, General, would Sarajevo have been

    9 surrounded by a wall of more than 60 kilometres and

    10 Konjic have been entirely surrounded?

    11 A. I cannot forecast what could have happened, but the

    12 situation in Sarajevo would have been a difficult one.

    13 Q. General, I know that you spent much of the war period,

    14 that is the whole of 1992 and 1993, engaged in the area

    15 of Herzegovina and that you are very well aware of the

    16 conditions there. That is why I am asking you whether,

    17 as early as 1991, Herceg Bosna was first proclaimed as a

    18 cultural community of the Croatian people and shortly

    19 after that it developed as a state entity, under the

    20 name of the Croatian Community of Herceg Bosna?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. I should like to ask the witness to be shown the

    23 Sluzbeni List, the official gazette of Herceg Bosna, of

    24 which I have one copy here in English and Bosnian. The

    25 English can be shown to the Prosecutor, which he has

  50. 1 anyway. It was disclosed in the Blaskic case. If it

    2 could be identified and shown to the witness.

    3 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 92/1.

    4 MS. RESIDOVIC: General, is that a document which you

    5 recognise as being headed by the words, Sluzbeni List of

    6 the Croatian Community of Herceg Bosna"?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Is it true that all decisions regarding the

    9 structure of the Croatian Community of Herceg Bosna as a

    10 state entity contained in that official gazette were

    11 proclaimed by the constitutional court of

    12 Bosnia-Herzegovina as being unconstitutional.

    13 JUDGE JAN: But has not Dr. Calic spoken about it? So why

    14 repeat that? I think Dr. Calic has covered that field.

    15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, your Honours. Dr. Calic did refer to

    16 these matters. It did not submit the whole document,

    17 but the witness has certain knowledge about events which

    18 were the product of these and similar documents of

    19 Herceg Bosna. May I proceed? Thank you.

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not know if you really want to

    21 proceed because you are taking up questions which you

    22 need not. You need not bother this witness because I do

    23 not see the effect. Even if he said it was, it would

    24 not make any difference to it.

    25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I am not going to ask this

  51. 1 witness about legal documents, but he knows from his own

    2 personal experience the consequences of these documents.

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is what your question amounts to,

    4 so it does not really matter.

    5 MS. RESIDOVIC: General, are you aware that in Graz,

    6 Austria, Mate Boban and Radovan Karadzic met in June

    7 1992?

    8 A. I was informed about that by the media, but I am not

    9 familiar with the details.

    10 Q. After that period, disagreements and later conflicts

    11 with the HVO were intensified, were they not?

    12 A. You are talking about "conflicts" again. I said that it

    13 was aggression against the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina by

    14 the extremist wing of the HVO and the Croatian army.

    15 I cannot talk about a conflict.

    16 Q. General, I am not in a position to agree or disagree

    17 with you. You have testified before this Trial Chamber

    18 about the beginnings of the misunderstandings and

    19 conflicts, which were then followed by an outspoken

    20 aggression; at least, that is my understanding of your

    21 description of your mutual relationships?

    22 A. I spoke about questions which were not agreed upon

    23 between us and on the basis of those uncoordinated

    24 points, certain disagreements arose.

    25 Q. And later on this led up to their open aggression?

  52. 1 A. Yes, it did.

    2 Q. According to that concept of the Croatian Community of

    3 Herceg Bosna, the town of Konjic as well as the town of

    4 Mostar belonged to that para-state, did they not?

    5 A. They should have belonged to the so-called Croatian

    6 Community of Herceg Bosna.

    7 Q. You know, General, that in Konjic, before the war, the

    8 majority population -- that is more than 50 per cent of

    9 the population -- were Bosniaks?

    10 A. Yes, according to the 1992 census.

    11 Q. But that other ethnicities lived there in agreement and

    12 harmony until the aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And our country before the war, nor during the war,

    15 never considered Bosnia-Herzegovina not to be a common

    16 state of all nationalities inhabiting it?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. However, those who attacked Bosnia on the Serbian side

    19 also felt that the Neretva River valley should belong to

    20 them and that they could separate it from this state,

    21 did they not?

    22 A. I was told that an agreement had been reached on the

    23 division of the Neretva River valley between a Serbian

    24 section and a Croatian section, that it would be

    25 controlled by Herceg Bosna.

  53. 1 Q. You also know, General, personally, that the town of

    2 Konjic was at that time exposed to heavy and continuous

    3 shelling from Serb-held positions?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. You are also aware that at the beginning of 1992, and at

    6 the beginning of the aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina,

    7 the Croatian Defence Council was far better organised,

    8 structured and equipped?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. This fact, coupled with the fact that the troops may

    11 have received some kind of salary, explained why a

    12 section of the Muslim population took an active part in

    13 units of the HVO?

    14 A. The reasons for the participation of each individual in

    15 the HVO is the business of that individual. But it is a

    16 fact that in some units within my area of responsibility

    17 more than 60 per cent were Bosniaks in the HVO.

    18 Q. Is it true that after the first liberation of Mostar the

    19 Croatian Defence Council in Mostar did not take an

    20 active part in the fighting against the Chetniks?

    21 A. Yes, somewhere after June 17th in 1992.

    22 Q. Do you know that at that same time the Konjic HVO

    23 refused to participate in the battles for the liberation

    24 of other parts of the municipality, and in the battle

    25 for lifting the blockade of Sarajevo?

  54. 1 A. Yes, I am aware of that.

    2 Q. During the blockade of the route M17, is it true that

    3 the area from Tarcin to Konjic, which under normal

    4 circumstances can be covered in half an hour, that it

    5 took more than 15 hours to cover this same distance by a

    6 roundabout Macadem route through Kresevo, Fojnica?

    7 A. Yes, 12 to 15 hours. I covered that route.

    8 Q. General, you also spoke about the situation in the armed

    9 forces of our country at the time of the aggression. Is

    10 it true that in April our state, confronted with the

    11 aggression, quickly passed regulations to ensure the

    12 defence of the country?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Could you, General, please look at the official gazette

    15 of Bosnia-Herzegovina number 1, in 1992. We have

    16 sufficient copies for the Trial Chamber and the

    17 Prosecution, so that I may ask you a few questions.

    18 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D93/1.

    19 A. I have looked at it.

    20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Do you recognise the official

    21 gazette of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Is it true that this is issue number 1, dated 9th April,

    24 1992?

    25 A. Yes, that is what it says.

  55. 1 Q. Is it true that in this official gazette, under point 2,

    2 we see the decree abolishing the Republican TO staff and

    3 the formation of a TO staff of the Republic of

    4 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Is it true that that decree was passed on April 8th,

    7 1992?

    8 A. That is what it says in the heading.

    9 Q. Is it true that in Article 2 of this decree it was

    10 established, in paragraph 2, that:

    11 "The Ministry of People's Defence of the Republic

    12 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, through the staff of Territorial

    13 Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, will command and control

    14 the units of the Territorial Defence."

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Is it correct that under number 3 under the same date,

    17 8th April, 1992, a decision was passed on the

    18 proclamation of an immediate threat of war?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 MS. RESIDOVIC: I should like to tender this official

    21 gazette as Defence exhibit, as the witness has

    22 recognised it both in form and content.

    23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I admit it.

    24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. General, is it true that by

    25 this decree the Territorial Defence was established as

  56. 1 the armed force of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    2 A. Yes, as a component, as the basic component of the armed

    3 forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    4 Q. Yes. Later on in May a law on defence and the armed

    5 forces will be adopted, is that not so?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Yes, General, but we are now talking about the beginning

    8 of April. Can you confirm, General, that at that time

    9 Serb members of the Presidency obstructed the work of

    10 the presidency and refused to participate in the defence

    11 of the country?

    12 A. I am not competent to answer that question, but

    13 I learned from the mass media that representatives of

    14 the Serbian people walked out of the Presidency.

    15 Q. Was that, among others, the reason that by the decree

    16 that we have just seen, the Ministry of National Defence

    17 should be at the head of the TO units during that

    18 initial period?

    19 A. I can express my opinion. With the change of name from

    20 the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina into the

    21 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, these decrees were

    22 passed and the Defence Ministry was -- assumed the

    23 responsibility of command and leadership, whereas in the

    24 function of leadership -- whereas the actual command was

    25 done through the staff of the Territorial Defence.

  57. 1 Q. As at the time you were on duty in Mostar, you certainly

    2 know that the Ministry of National Defence of the

    3 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the basis of these --

    4 this legislation passed the decree instructing the

    5 subordination of district TO staffs to the Republican

    6 staff of the Territorial Defence, are you aware of that?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. A moment ago you told me that at the end of May the

    9 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina passed a law on defence

    10 and the armed forces, so my next question is whether in

    11 accordance with that decree the armed forces consisted

    12 of armed units of the Territorial Defence, the HVO and

    13 the MUP, the Ministry of Interior?

    14 A. I do not have that decree in front of me.

    15 Q. Yes, I did not show you that. It is decree number 4.

    16 I am asking you whether you are aware that the armed

    17 forces consisted of the Territorial Defence, the HVO and

    18 the MUP, in accordance with that decision. If you know

    19 that please answer my question. If not, it does not

    20 matter.

    21 A. Yes, I am aware of that.

    22 Q. In answer to a question from the Prosecution, you said

    23 that the process of formation of the 4th Corps takes some

    24 time in wartime conditions, "we did our best to make

    25 that process as short as possible"?

  58. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. That is probably the reason why this decree on the armed

    3 forces established deadlines within which the army was

    4 to have been restructured in accordance with the

    5 provisions of that decree?

    6 A. I do not have that document, so it is difficult for me

    7 to answer about deadlines.

    8 Q. Thank you. That is the most sincere answer you can give

    9 at this point. However, do you know that the HVO never

    10 placed itself under the command of the armed forces of

    11 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    12 A. That is in practice true.

    13 Q. Its system of subordination went up to the main staff in

    14 Grude, Posusje, for a time in Mostar; it does not matter

    15 where the headquarters were but in any case it was the

    16 staff, the Supreme Command of Herceg Bosna?

    17 A. Yes, the Supreme Command of the HVO had the

    18 responsibility of commanding all units of the Croatian

    19 Defence Council.

    20 Q. General, you left Sarajevo at the end of March or the

    21 beginning of April, did you not?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Either directly or from the mass media, you knew what

    24 was happening in Sarajevo on the 6th April?

    25 A. Yes.

  59. 1 Q. I am referring to April 6th, 1992, of course?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. I should like to show the witness a short video, but in

    4 view of the time perhaps we could leave that until after

    5 the break, if that is convenient to your Honours.

    6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it should be. It is 1 o'clock

    7 now. It is 1 o'clock now. For how much longer would

    8 you be on this issue, then we will know what to do at

    9 that time?

    10 MS. RESIDOVIC: I will finish today, your Honours.

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is a good answer, but ... We will

    12 break now for lunch. So you will start with your video

    13 after lunch.

    14 (1.00 pm)

    15 (Luncheon adjournment)











  60. 1 (2.30 pm)

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would you kindly invite the witness

    3 please? Please inform the witness that he is still on

    4 his oath.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: I am reminding you, sir, that you are still

    6 testifying under oath.

    7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Ms. Residovic.

    8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honours. I would like to

    9 ask the technical support to play the video number 2.

    10 It is a videotape number 1, excerpt number 2.

    11 THE INTERPRETER: (Translating videotape).

    12 "This is the bare-armed people. This not the ones

    13 who are armed up to their teeth up there. This is the

    14 unarmed people. This is impossible."

    15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

    16 General, did you recognise the city where this

    17 event took place?

    18 A. Yes, in Sarajevo.

    19 Q. Did you recognise the location where this took place?

    20 MR. NIEMANN: Objection, your Honour, as to relevance. I do

    21 not understand what the relevance of Sarajevo has to

    22 these proceedings and I object on that basis.

    23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, my defendant has a direct --

    24 has been directly implicated with -- in the indictment

    25 with the Supreme Command in Sarajevo and I would like to

  61. 1 draw attention to this witness and the questions that

    2 I am asking of this witness are directly connected to

    3 that situation.

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can proceed.

    5 MS. RESIDOVIC: General, would you please repeat, do you

    6 recognise the location within the city of Sarajevo where

    7 these events took place?

    8 A. I think this was the space between the Parliament

    9 building and the Holiday Inn Hotel, the museum.

    10 Q. General, was this 6th April when for all intents and

    11 purposes the war in Bosnia started?

    12 A. I remember this tape. I think it could be the 6th.

    13 I do not know.

    14 Q. Is it true that the city of Sarajevo was continuously

    15 attacked following this day?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Is it correct that on May 2nd Sarajevo was completely

    18 besieged?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Is it true that on that day the post office in Sarajevo

    21 burned down, housing more than 100,000 telephone numbers

    22 and all the installations that were there?

    23 A. Yes, the post office building was destroyed.

    24 Q. Is it true that only a month later a satellite

    25 connection was established in Sarajevo, which provided a

  62. 1 possibility that Sarajevo would be connected, maintain

    2 communications with the rest of the country and with

    3 other countries and that this connection was established

    4 via satellite through other countries and some other

    5 places in Bosnia?

    6 A. I do not know how many places were involved, but I know

    7 that for a while their basic communication line was the

    8 satellite one.

    9 Q. And the Mostar and Konjic, neither had such type of

    10 communication, is that correct?

    11 A. I did not have such communication lines in Mostar.

    12 Q. Is it true, General, that the orders, appointments and

    13 other orders from the Supreme Command were travelling

    14 under very difficult conditions and for a very long time

    15 from the person who was issuing an order and the

    16 recipient of that same order?

    17 A. Yes, that is correct.

    18 Q. General, would it happen in the field that some later

    19 subsequent orders would arrive before the initial order?

    20 A. In practice we would be -- receive communication or were

    21 basic orders through radio and then a messenger would be

    22 sent, if it was possible.

    23 Q. Until the end of 1993, when under the airport the tunnel

    24 was dug one could only leave Sarajevo under a direct

    25 threat for one's life, when they had to run over the

  63. 1 runway?

    2 A. Yes, I was both a witness and a participant of this type

    3 of crossing.

    4 Q. Since the witness recognised the videotape, I would like

    5 to tender it in evidence, and I would like to get the

    6 appropriate number.

    7 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, we object to it on the grounds of

    8 relevance, your Honour.

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not see why you really want to

    10 tender it. What does it go to? Terms of the indictment

    11 you are facing?

    12 MS. RESIDOVIC: It is for the purpose --

    13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Of telling the story about the war.

    14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, this is just one story about

    15 the war and it is relevant to the appointment of my

    16 client, the conditions, the circumstances under which

    17 this appointment came about, so it goes directly to the

    18 responsibilities that are cited in the indictment from

    19 this excerpt and from the testimony of this witness you

    20 just heard how things were happening. Without this no

    21 proper evaluation is possible, with respect to the

    22 testimony that we heard on last Wednesday and Thursday

    23 here before this Trial Chamber.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: A person was appointed in such

    25 conditions, how does it help your case?

  64. 1 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is the knowledge of the person about

    2 the appointment. But I am not going to insist; if the

    3 Trial Chamber is not leaning towards accepting this as

    4 evidence, I am not going to push the matter.

    5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. You can carry on.

    6 MS. RESIDOVIC: General, when asked by the Prosecutor you

    7 explained that until the end of 1992 following your

    8 appointment you proceeded to do everything necessary

    9 towards the establishment of the 4th Corps?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. The seat of the 4th Corps was in Mostar?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Until then you also had your headquarters in Mostar,

    14 first as the Battalion Commander and then after the

    15 Commander of the 1st Mostar Brigade, is that correct?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Until mid June Mostar was also besieged by the Serb

    18 forces?

    19 A. It was still under the siege.

    20 Q. However, in the latter part of June, it became easier

    21 for you to leave Mostar towards other free parts of the

    22 Republic?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Before the Trial Chamber you said that you went to

    25 Bugojno, Zenica, Jablanica, Gornji Vakuf, occasionally

  65. 1 Konjic, always with the plan to discuss logistical help

    2 and support, exchange of material and so on, is that

    3 correct?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. From the latter part of June you work intensively for --

    6 towards establishment of the Mostar Brigade, which was

    7 the HVO support?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. You visited Konjic at least 10 times before you became

    10 the Commander of the 4th Corps, is that correct?

    11 A. I do not know the exact number.

    12 Q. For the most part you passed through and you could not

    13 have been an eyewitness or direct witness of the actual

    14 events in Konjic at that time, is that correct?

    15 A. I could not testify to the details.

    16 Q. You said that you met Mr. Delalic about three times, as

    17 far as you recall, is that correct?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. And that you met with Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic, the

    20 President of the Municipal Assembly, the MUP chief,

    21 Jasmin Guska and representatives of the HVO et cetera,

    22 is that correct?

    23 A. I did not say that I was meeting with the

    24 representatives of the HVO. I said I went to the

    25 headquarters and we did not find anyone and as far as

  66. 1 the other persons, when I was passing through I was

    2 meeting these persons as well as some others.

    3 Q. Thank you. Do you know Enver Redzepovic?

    4 A. Enver who? I do not know which one you have in mind.

    5 Q. The first TO commander in Konjic who was on his duty

    6 from mid April 1992?

    7 A. Maybe by sight, but I did not have any contact with him.

    8 Q. Do you know that in mid May Omer Boric was appointed a

    9 commander of the TO?

    10 A. I know that he was the commander of the TO at the

    11 municipal headquarters. I do not know when he was

    12 appointed and what time-frame it was.

    13 Q. Do you know that he was replaced by Esad Ramic in this

    14 post?

    15 A. I meant Esad Ramic as the Commander, or the chief, at

    16 the TO. I do not know if there was anyone between him

    17 and Boric.

    18 Q. You know that in the middle of October 1992 Mirsad

    19 Catic, whom you met in this position, became the

    20 Commander of the TO headquarters; when you became the

    21 Commander of the 4th Corps he was on in that, in that

    22 post, is that correct?

    23 A. Yes, we were offering him in post. He did not want to

    24 move to the Corps, he wanted to stay in the TO in Konjic.

    25 Q. Can you confirm before this Trial Chamber that at the

  67. 1 end of September, and especially in October, in 1992,

    2 the Brigades were being established very intensively and

    3 the two Brigades that were in Konjic became part of the

    4 4th Corps?

    5 A. Yes, at that time a large number of units were

    6 established and the Suad Alic Brigade from Konjic

    7 becomes part of the 4th Corps.

    8 Q. All these Brigades have their own headquarters and

    9 commands, even if they were reduced in size in that

    10 period, is that correct?

    11 A. Yes, they had Commanders.

    12 Q. You know that the -- the Commander of the Supreme

    13 Command decided to pull out of Sarajevo and in September

    14 and October in 1992 they wanted to establish a forward

    15 post of the Supreme Commander outside of Sarajevo in the

    16 free territory?

    17 A. I found that out only in November when I met the members

    18 of this headquarters.

    19 Q. And these members of the Supreme Command were coming to

    20 Konjic and to Mount Igman in many different ways and

    21 under very difficult circumstances?

    22 A. Yes, they had to run across the runway.

    23 Q. You know that Konjic, Jablanica and Mount Igman were the

    24 locations where they got together?

    25 A. I was meeting some of the members of the Supreme Command

  68. 1 on Mount Igman and some in Konjic, like, for instance,

    2 Vehbija Karic.

    3 Q. You can confirm that at that time in October and early

    4 November Delalic was engaged in trying to communicate

    5 with particular members of the Supreme Command because

    6 they were leading no operations at that time?

    7 A. I really do not know what specific tasks Mr. Delalic had

    8 at that time. It is possible that he had such tasks as

    9 well. I do not know any details about that.

    10 Q. General, do you know that the temporary headquarters of

    11 this forward command post of the Supreme Command was

    12 going to be on the premises of the former JNA?

    13 A. I only found that out later when I personally met Sefer

    14 Halilovic in February 1993.

    15 Q. This is the period when Konjic was still being shelled

    16 from the direction of Borci, is that correct?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Just to conclude this series of questions, is it,

    19 General, that in October, November and December 1992 was

    20 the period of intensive work on establishing the army

    21 structures in this territory?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. It was in this period too that the major acting of

    24 diversion and sabotage were carried out by the HVO which

    25 we had referred to before the break. This was happening

  69. 1 around Prozor, but they had their repercussions in

    2 Konjic too?

    3 A. I am familiar with those machinations that I spoke of.

    4 Q. You know that the -- that a bomb was planted in the

    5 house of Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic, the President of the

    6 War Presidency at the time?

    7 A. I was told that a bomb went off in his house or his

    8 weekend home. An explosive device, I am not sure which.

    9 Q. When you took over duty, or just before that, and came

    10 to Konjic, you found the army structured as follows: a

    11 group of members of the staff of the Supreme Command

    12 trying to form the forward command group with General

    13 Divjak, Vehbija Karic and others, is that not so?

    14 A. Yes, at the time we met with General Divjak and the

    15 other members of the Supreme Command staff I had seen in

    16 Konjic before that, but I did not see them then.

    17 Q. But you encountered the municipal staff of the BiH army,

    18 the Commander of which was Mirsad Catic, is that not so?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. As you already said, there was a Brigade called Suad

    21 Alic with its staff officers, a Commander?

    22 A. Yes, they existed.

    23 Q. There was the Neretva Brigade with the same command

    24 structures?

    25 A. Yes, I have already said that.

  70. 1 Q. There was the MUP with the reserve police force and its

    2 own separate structure?

    3 A. The public security station of the Mostar public

    4 security centre.

    5 Q. Then there was the HVO with its military section,

    6 command and military commander, and its civilian

    7 section, which was formed as a parallel body to the

    8 civilian authorities in Konjic?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Then there were the remnants of the Group 1 with Zejnil

    11 Delalic as its -- at its head, which at that moment was

    12 not engaged in specific combat operations in the

    13 vicinity of Sarajevo?

    14 A. I am afraid I do not understand the question.

    15 Q. You also encountered Zejnil Delalic in Konjic?

    16 A. I did not. He had already left when I came to Konjic.

    17 Q. My question, General, referred to the period when you

    18 were taking over your duties and just before that, and

    19 that period is the time of the events in Prozor --

    20 actually all these bodies, from November 1st until you

    21 took over duties, were there at the time?

    22 A. I received a document on the formation of the 4th Corps

    23 on 17th November. At that time, I was in Zenica. I was

    24 told to go urgently to Mostar where orders were

    25 awaiting.

  71. 1 Q. Thank you.

    2 A. I did not physically find Mr. Delalic after my

    3 appointment, no.

    4 Q. After your appointment, I see, thank you. In addition

    5 to the shelling, there was a serious crisis in Konjic

    6 and a shortage of all supplies, was there not?

    7 A. That applied in general to all the places in the Neretva

    8 River valley at the time.

    9 Q. Before taking over your duties in the 4th Corps, you knew

    10 that Zejnil Delalic was a person without any military

    11 training, and a businessman from abroad, did you not?

    12 A. I knew that he had no military education and that he was

    13 engaged in business activities abroad. I know no

    14 additional details.

    15 Q. You also knew at the time that he had participated in

    16 the defence, and that he had placed at the disposal of

    17 the defence, a significant amount of funds, his own

    18 house and his sister's farm in Ovcari?

    19 A. I saw Mr. Delalic in positions of defence in Konjic and

    20 there is absolutely no doubt he participated in the

    21 defence against aggression. What he specifically

    22 contributed in terms of material resources, I am not

    23 familiar with that.

    24 Q. Thank you. Since we were talking about the structures

    25 in Konjic, it is obvious that all of them had certain

  72. 1 competencies.

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. On Thursday, in answer to a question of the Prosecutor,

    4 you said that there were military police bodies in both

    5 the TO and the HVO, did you not?

    6 A. I said that I did not have any police force in the

    7 Battalion, that I formed the military police in the 1st

    8 Mostar Brigade, and that when the 4th Corps was formed

    9 I undertook to set up the military police of the Corps.

    10 Q. Therefore at the beginning of the war, attached to the

    11 Territorial Defence, there were no military police

    12 units. The function of discovery, persecution, arrest

    13 and detention at first, until the formation of the

    14 military police attached to the army, were carried out

    15 by the MUP, that is the public security stations and the

    16 public security centres, or the police, was that not so?

    17 A. In Mostar as Battalion Commander I did not have any

    18 military police, nor any investigation or persecution

    19 bodies. As for the other units in municipal staffs and

    20 regional staffs, I do not know, or with regard to the

    21 Republican staff.

    22 Q. Did you know, General, that the HVO from the beginning

    23 had its own military police?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. I should first like to ask you whether you know that in

  73. 1 the initial period of the defence of Konjic, in order to

    2 resolve certain dilemmas and to co-ordinate joint action,

    3 a staff or a joint command was formed?

    4 A. I heard about that, but I do not know how they dealt

    5 with the problems. I know how I dealt with them in

    6 Mostar.

    7 Q. I should like to ask you, General, to see some documents

    8 of the joint command, not in order to authenticate them

    9 but simply to be able to ask you some questions, linked

    10 to the standard form and content of those documents. I

    11 have several such documents, so I should like them all

    12 to be marked under one number, so that the General may

    13 say -- therefore under one number, and there will be

    14 attachments, A, B and C of those documents, and I will

    15 be asking the General some general questions relative to

    16 this group of documents.

    17 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 95/1.

    18 MS. RESIDOVIC: All these documents were disclosed to the

    19 Prosecutor early on.

    20 THE REGISTRAR: As these are different documents, I have to

    21 mark each one separately.

    22 MS. RESIDOVIC: General, will you please look first at the

    23 authorisation dated 20th May, 1992, and the order on

    24 appointment of the 10th June, 1992? Is it true,

    25 General, that the authorisation dated 20th May, 1992,

  74. 1 whereby Mr. Goran Lokas is authorised to be in charge of

    2 the area of military security and that it was signed by

    3 Commander of the HVO, Dinko Zebic, and Commander of the

    4 TO staff, Omer Boric?

    5 A. I must tell you that May and June, up to the 14th June

    6 when we liberated the city of Mostar, I never went to

    7 Konjic. It was only later that I passed through Konjic,

    8 when the forces of the former JNA had blocked the road.

    9 So I can only give you my opinion as a military man

    10 about these documents, whether we had issued anything

    11 like them. If that is -- if you want me to indicate

    12 what is said here, to read what is said here, I can do

    13 that.

    14 Q. General, I think that I told you I am very grateful to

    15 you. You are of great assistance both to the Trial

    16 Chamber and ourselves with your professional knowledge

    17 and personal experience. I do not wish you to identify

    18 any one of these documents. I am simply asking you, as

    19 a military man, to look at them and to answer my

    20 question; is it true that this document was signed by

    21 these two persons, as you see it on this document?

    22 MR. NIEMANN: I object to that, your Honour. I mean, just

    23 after what the General has said the very next question

    24 is: did they sign it? He said he was not there and he

    25 cannot assist; the very next question he is presented

  75. 1 with is: did they sign it? I object to that, your

    2 Honour.

    3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Let me re-phrase the question. Is it true

    4 that one can see from this document that it was signed

    5 by two different entities?

    6 A. Yes, that can be seen in the document.

    7 Q. It can be seen that they signed the document separately?

    8 A. Yes, it can.

    9 Q. Will you please look at the document dated 8th June,

    10 1992, a command to the communications chief? Is it true

    11 that this document too was signed separately by the TO

    12 commander and the HVO commander?

    13 A. That is what it says in the signature.

    14 Q. If there was a joint command, can you, as a military

    15 man, tell us that a document would have to be separately

    16 signed by the TO commander and the HVO commander?

    17 A. I can tell you, as a person who is a professional

    18 soldier. Documents differed in form. There were those

    19 that were not done properly, and if there was a joint

    20 command then it would have to be indicated in the

    21 preamble that there was a joint command; but it is a

    22 fact that there were such documents in cases when the

    23 HVO and the TO, that is the HVO command and the

    24 municipal TO staff, came to some joint agreement.

    25 Q. Do you interpret similarly the document dated 20th May,

  76. 1 1992, which was also signed by the Commander of the

    2 municipal staff, Omer Boric and the Commander Zebic

    3 Dinko? Do you recognise in these document too,

    4 customary documents for that period, as documents in

    5 which these two entities sought to engage in certain

    6 joint activities together?

    7 A. Yes, according to this document that is what it says.

    8 Q. Since this authorisation dated 20th May, 1992, also

    9 includes an appointment, is it true that those

    10 appointments too, according to this document, were

    11 carried out in such a way that both these entities did

    12 them, that is both the TO and the HVO?

    13 A. If we are talking about appointments for a unit which

    14 was assigned to a joint task, and if at the head of that

    15 mission, or the Commander was a person either from the

    16 HVO or from the BiH army or the TO, in that case for

    17 this level of units there had to be the approval and the

    18 stamp of both structures, both entities.

    19 Q. So practical reasons required that at that time this

    20 kind of document had to be issued, the kind of document

    21 that you have just examined?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Could these documents please be returned to the

    24 Registry?

    25 I should now like to show you another group of

  77. 1 documents, of which we also have sufficient copies for

    2 the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution.

    3 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D99/1. Defence Exhibit

    4 100/1. Defence Exhibit 101/1. Defence Exhibit 102/1.

    5 Defence Exhibit 103/1.

    6 MS. RESIDOVIC: General, is it true that you have before

    7 you a number of documents of the municipal staff of

    8 Konjic of the BiH army?

    9 A. Yes, it is. I have two copies of the same document.

    10 Q. So please could you delete 99/1, or rather it is a copy

    11 of an existing document. All these documents dated

    12 August and September 1992 are documents issued as

    13 indicated in the documents by the Commander Esad Ramic,

    14 is that not so?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. All the documents by their content are appointments of

    17 persons to various positions in the staff, in the

    18 Battalion or other military assignments, is that not so?

    19 A. Except for one, which is a document relieving somebody

    20 of duty, but it is not indicated who, there is no name.

    21 Q. If one -- if you look at these documents can you please

    22 tell us, General, if these are documents typical of that

    23 time appointing or relieving from duty certain persons

    24 to certain posts?

    25 A. The Commander of the municipal staff of the Konjic

  78. 1 municipality or the Territorial Defence was authorised

    2 to do so, and this is one manner in which persons were

    3 appointed to certain posts or relieved of their duty.

    4 Q. Persons appointed by the Commander of the municipal

    5 staff are responsible to the Commander of the municipal

    6 staff, is that correct?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. This is the usual format for appointments, typical of

    9 that time?

    10 A. Yes, I have already answered and said that this was the

    11 typical procedure.

    12 Q. Thank you. I would now like to have these documents

    13 returned to the Registry.

    14 General, when you took up the post of the Corps

    15 Commander, the municipal staff of the BiH army came

    16 under your command, is that correct?

    17 A. The units were placed under my command, and the function

    18 of the municipal staff ceased to exist.

    19 Q. As you explained when you answered the questions to the

    20 Prosecutor, from that moment on, as the Superior

    21 Commander, you were responsible for the situation, for

    22 the status and all the actions undertaken by the units

    23 and soldiers subordinate to you?

    24 A. Yes, as of 17th May 19 -- 17th November, 1992.

    25 Q. Are you aware that after Zejnil Delalic left Konjic that

  79. 1 his property was stolen from his house and from his

    2 sister's house in Ocvari?

    3 A. Yes, I was notified that in those few days when the

    4 commission became operational that his property was

    5 stolen.

    6 Q. You also know that Commander Catic formed a commission

    7 that was supposed to find out who stole the property and

    8 to undertake appropriate measures?

    9 A. Since he was the Commander of the municipal headquarters

    10 in Konjic, it was his task to do so.

    11 Q. General, I have another line of questioning that I would

    12 like to explore with you. I would now like to go back

    13 to the time when you took up the post of the Commander

    14 of the 4th Corps.

    15 You testified before this Tribunal that when you

    16 came to Konjic you learned from soldiers and from other

    17 persons that in the Celebici barracks in addition to the

    18 warehouses there was a prison where Serbian, or mostly

    19 Serbian, prisoners were placed who had been captured in

    20 the fighting around Bradina and Donje Selo, is that

    21 correct?

    22 A. No, I said that the commission informed me that they had

    23 found some people in the Celebici warehouse who had been

    24 put in isolation. I did not say whether they were Serbs

    25 or Muslims. It only transpired afterwards who these

  80. 1 people were.

    2 Q. Did you learn that in the sports hall in Musala there

    3 was a prison and that there was a number of prisoners

    4 placed there?

    5 A. I cannot give you a precise answer.

    6 Q. Is it true that you ordered that the Celebici prison be

    7 closed and that all the other -- all the persons be

    8 transferred to the Musala hall?

    9 A. I asked from the Supreme Command staff to allow me to

    10 clear up the situation in Celebici, to have these

    11 prisoners transferred, since I had been informed that

    12 they are mostly civilians, that they be transferred to

    13 other prisons outside of my jurisdiction, because it was

    14 not my jurisdiction. They may have been physically

    15 transferred from Celebici to Musala and then further on,

    16 but this was just a procedure.

    17 Q. Your intention, among other things, was to be able to

    18 use the Celebici barracks for logistics and for other

    19 purely military purposes?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. I would like to show you a document dated 21st November,

    22 1992. Before that, I would like to ask you, these

    23 orders were carried out by the municipal staff of the

    24 army in Konjic, pursuant to your orders, is that

    25 correct?

  81. 1 A. Some actions were undertaken by the commission for

    2 investigative actions, some were received by Catic and

    3 by the municipal staff and some actions were taken by

    4 the units. It depended on the nature of specific tasks.

    5 Q. Did you have a look at the document?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Can I have the number of the exhibit?

    8 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D107/1.

    9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. In the heading of this

    10 document, is the body which issued this document, is

    11 this the municipal staff in Konjic and the date is the

    12 21st November, 1992?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Do you see that this document is signed by a person on

    15 behalf of the Commander Mirsad Catic?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Is this a document on the appointment of the operative

    18 officer in the security sector of the staff?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Is this a document that is a typical document within the

    21 jurisdiction of the municipal staff concerning

    22 appointments of persons to certain tasks and posts?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. I would like this document to be returned. I would now

    25 like to show another document to you.

  82. 1 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 108/1.

    2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Did you read the document?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Is this a document from the Konjic municipal staff,

    5 dated 20th December, 1992, in which a certain person on

    6 behalf of Commander Mirsad Catic orders that a new list

    7 of property be made and that the determination be made

    8 of all the properties stolen from the house of Zejnil

    9 Delalic, and that is what you discussed a moment ago?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Since this document has been

    12 authenticated by the witness, the contents has been

    13 authenticated, I tender this as evidence.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: No objection, your Honours.

    15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

    16 General, I will show you some other documents from

    17 the period in which you were already on your post of the

    18 4th Corps Commander and of which you probably have

    19 knowledge.

    20 THE REGISTRAR: This is Defence Exhibit 109/1.

    21 MS. RESIDOVIC: General, this document, according to its

    22 heading, was headed by Suad Alic Brigade in Konjic on

    23 19th December, 1992, is that correct?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. It is signed by Commander Midhat Cerovac?

  83. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. According to its content this document would refer to

    3 the confiscation, requisition of the motor vehicle from

    4 Sefko Rizvanovic's garage and that would mean that your

    5 commission was meant to investigate why the property of

    6 Zejnil Delalic and his family was taken?

    7 A. The Brigade Commander had the right to mobilise or to

    8 requisition the vehicle, but he had to have appropriate

    9 documented records and to notify the TO staff.

    10 MS. RESIDOVIC: I will show you some other documents of

    11 similar contents.

    12 Can I please have this document shown to the

    13 witness?

    14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What are all these documents directed

    15 at? What are you trying to show?

    16 MS. RESIDOVIC: By these documents the jurisdiction of the

    17 municipal staff can be shown in relation to military

    18 police and so forth, and the Prosecutor has pointed our

    19 attention to that during the examination-in-chief.

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You think it concerns your case, is

    21 it? It has any relevance to your case?

    22 JUDGE JAN: None whatsoever.

    23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, my client is not charged with

    24 any specific acts. He is not charged with torture, or

    25 arrest or anything else. He is charged with things that

  84. 1 are a normal part of his responsibilities and

    2 jurisdiction. This witness can, by looking at certain

    3 documents, prove who had what kind of responsibilities

    4 and jurisdiction in Konjic. In this regard, we are

    5 trying to show these documents to the witness, grouping

    6 the documents together in certain ways, so that the

    7 Tribunal may then have a good idea about the authorities

    8 in Konjic and the possible responsibility of my client.

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that so?

    10 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, if I may just make an observation

    11 on that point; if that is what these documents are

    12 sought to prove then I object, because they are dated

    13 6th December, 1992, and are past the time when the

    14 accused Mr. Delalic was in the area, so I cannot see how

    15 they can be relevant to prove that point.

    16 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness has just presented his view of

    17 the documents that were shown to him. I show him

    18 documents dating from May, June and August and the

    19 documents that follow which indicate the continuity of

    20 jurisdiction.

    21 JUDGE JAN: It is an order for the requisition of the

    22 premises belonging to Zejnil Delalic. Most military

    23 commanders in times of war have that part, so how is it

    24 really relevant for the purpose of inquiry into the

    25 allegations made in respect of the Celebici camp. Let

  85. 1 us be a little more relevant than that.

    2 MS. RESIDOVIC: This portion of documents was only relevant

    3 to the work of the commission and the manner of its work

    4 at the time when Zejnil Delalic had gone. This has

    5 already been admitted by the court. I am now -- I want

    6 to the present to the witness the last group of the

    7 documents which are related to the Celebici prison.

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose you could do that, but I do

    9 not think you should have to organise the case with the

    10 other things.

    11 MS. RESIDOVIC: I would now like the witness to be shown a

    12 group of documents, and each of the documents should be

    13 marked individually, so that I can ask a few questions

    14 of the witness.

    15 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I just at this stage wish to

    16 foreshadow an objection. If the relevance of these

    17 documents is to show the position of who was in command

    18 of what during the period of the indictment when --

    19 JUDGE JAN: We do not have the documents yet, Mr. Niemann.

    20 We have not seen them. To appreciate your argument it

    21 is better if we have a look at them.

    22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I did not hear your remark,

    23 I did not get that interpretation.

    24 JUDGE JAN: Before Mr. Niemann takes his objection let us

    25 have a look at the documents first. We have not got

  86. 1 these documents yet. We do not know what these

    2 documents are about.

    3 JUDGE JAN: These orders were made between 5th and 11th

    4 December, 1992.

    5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, but since they refer to the existence

    6 of the prison at that time, I also had in mind the

    7 testimony of this witness, I thought that I had reasons

    8 to ask some questions. Since we are nearing the time

    9 for our break I have just a few questions and I will end

    10 after that my cross-examination. I think that it may be

    11 good that I continue with my questions after the break,

    12 after we have all had an opportunity to look through the

    13 documents. If you wish me to continue now, I can do

    14 so.

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we should have a break.

    16 I think we should have a break and come back at 4.30, so

    17 that you should be able to relate any of these papers to

    18 your cross-examination.

    19 (4.00 pm)

    20 (Short break)

    21 (4.30 pm)

    22 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, while the witness is being

    23 brought in, I just wish to renew the objection which is

    24 based on the fact that if these documents of December

    25 are -- if the relevance is predicated on the basis that

  87. 1 they tend to show the state of command during the period

    2 of the indictment when it is accused the accused Zejnil

    3 Delalic was in command then in our submission that is

    4 not established, because documents after the time of the

    5 event cannot possibly go to establish that and is not

    6 seen to be so on the basis of the documents.

    7 I should also indicate we were not given any

    8 copies of the documents. It is the first time we have

    9 seen them. I am instructed that they were not made

    10 available to us.

    11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, regarding the second part of

    12 the objection, my learned friend is right. In view of

    13 the questions put to the witness lately my investigators

    14 sent me these documents a day or two ago. I had them

    15 translated over the weekend, and these are the only

    16 documents among dozens which the Defence has submitted

    17 to the Prosecution -- has not submitted to the

    18 Prosecution, and even though this omission has been

    19 made, that is they were given to the Prosecution today

    20 rather than yesterday, I should be allowed to use them

    21 as it is the only omission we have made. The document

    22 of the 9th December contains a list of the 32 last

    23 remaining prisoners in Celebici, and about 10 of them

    24 have testified here in court as witnesses. So I think

    25 that this is directly related to all the events alleged

  88. 1 in the indictment and particularly they are related to

    2 the position of my client in this case, and they also

    3 refer to the conditions in Celebici prison, which are

    4 referred to in the release papers.

    5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose if you are so concerned you

    6 can tender them, but I do not see much of a relevance it

    7 has to your case, seriously speaking. I think you can

    8 put them.

    9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

    10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think they can be admitted. I do not

    11 see much relevance.

    12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

    13 (Witness enters court)

    14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may remind the witness that he is

    15 still on his oath.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: I should like to remind you, sir, that you

    17 are still under oath.

    18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can now proceed.

    19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

    20 General, will you please look at the document

    21 dated 9th December, 1992?

    22 A. Yes, I can see it.

    23 Q. It is a document which, according to the heading, is

    24 issued by the military police of Konjic on the date

    25 mentioned?

  89. 1 A. Yes, that is so.

    2 Q. This is a report on the transfer of 32 prisoners of Serb

    3 ethnicity from Celebici to Musala in accordance with

    4 your orders that the prison should be closed down?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. It is evident from this document that your orders were

    7 carried out by the municipal staff because in the

    8 preamble it is stated that:

    9 "... these persons shall be transferred on the

    10 basis of the orders of the municipal staff of the army

    11 in Konjic"; is that not so?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. On page 2 of this document, it can be seen that on

    14 behalf of the Celebici camp the prisoners were handed

    15 over by Kemal Mr.ndjic and they were received in Musala

    16 by a person whose name is signed as H. Ismet?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. It can also be seen that this take-over was attended by

    19 another four persons?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. General, you can confirm that these were the last

    22 remaining prisoners that were transferred from Celebici?

    23 A. I think they were the last. I cannot tell by their

    24 names.

    25 Q. Thank you. Will you now look at the document dated 10th

  90. 1 December, 1992?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. This document is the orders of the municipal staff of

    4 Konjic, dated 10th December, 1992, is it not?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. These orders were issued and signed by the Commander

    7 Mirsad Catic?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. In substance, it is an order on the unhindered entry and

    10 inspection to the Musala prison, or rather the sports

    11 hall?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Will you please now look at the next document, dated

    14 11th December, 1992, two days after the prisoners were

    15 transferred from Celebici? Is it true to say that this

    16 document was also issued by the Konjic municipal staff,

    17 dated 11th December, 1992?

    18 A. That is what it says.

    19 Q. And that as stated in the document the signature bears

    20 the name of the document Mirsad Catic?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. In substance, it is an appointment of the prison warden

    23 Mustafic Sead?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. It is stated in this document that the order takes

  91. 1 effect immediately?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Does that mean that it follows from this document that

    4 even after the transfer of prisoners from Celebici a

    5 prison remained in Celebici and that a person has been

    6 appointed to the post of prison warden, the person whose

    7 name is indicated in the document?

    8 A. That is something I cannot confirm. It is my duty to

    9 give you a short explanation. On 17th November there

    10 was the order to form a Corps. From that date on the

    11 units were formed which were going to become part of the

    12 4th Corps, which means a military unit is formed with

    13 operative tasks. The TO staff remained as a territorial

    14 entity. It still existed. You could see from the

    15 previous orders that they actually reflect the confusion

    16 of the situation in Konjic. One Commander requisitions

    17 a vehicle, another Commander lists property, a third

    18 does something else. So that one can see from all this

    19 the justification of the commission, of the

    20 investigating commission, which is still working. It

    21 had still not completed its assignment, so that all

    22 these documents, in my opinion, reflect the situation on

    23 the ground, but there were periods when some tasks were

    24 being implemented and the order for that same task was

    25 written later, a day or several days later. So the

  92. 1 dates may be confusing.

    2 Q. Thank you for the explanation. General, do you know

    3 that 13 persons whom you asked to be detained up to 30

    4 days were accommodated in the school in Parsovcici but

    5 that the majority of those people were put up in the

    6 prison of the Celebici barracks?

    7 A. I know that in the school in the village of Parasovici

    8 we interrogated the people who were taken into custody.

    9 By way of example, Jovan Divjak, as a member of the

    10 staff of the Supreme Command, was detained in a village

    11 house where conditions were quite normal in order to

    12 protect him from irresponsible individuals of Serb

    13 ethnicity who might liquidate him because he was of Serb

    14 ethnicity.

    15 Q. So what you are trying to tell me is that you are not

    16 familiar with the details of the investigations?

    17 A. No, that is not what I am trying to say. I had a global

    18 idea but exactly where someone was being held -- was it

    19 in the Celebici, in the school or in a house -- that is

    20 something I cannot tell you exactly, so some people had

    21 to be separated from others in the course of the

    22 investigations.

    23 Q. Yes, but General, you probably took care that all those

    24 persons who were detained should have some basic

    25 conditions to be held in detention, favourable

  93. 1 conditions if one may call them that, under conditions

    2 of war?

    3 A. There was a war and we paid as much attention to those

    4 things as we could.

    5 Q. Though it was wintertime, and if it is true that some

    6 persons, like Zejnil Delalic's brother, Mira Busalic,

    7 and some others were detained in the Celebici prison,

    8 you were sure that in that prison at least the basic

    9 requirements existed for them being detained there?

    10 A. I think that they were the minimum conditions we were

    11 able to provide.

    12 Q. Thank you, General. You also said that you instructed

    13 the continuation of the investigations regarding persons

    14 found in the Celebici prison, that is to establish

    15 whether they were to blame and that criminal proceedings

    16 should be instituted against them, if not that they

    17 should be released. Is that not what you said?

    18 A. I received a report and a proposal from the assistant

    19 for legal affairs that proceedings should be instituted

    20 for the persons for whom I did institute such

    21 proceedings, because allegedly they had the facts

    22 regarding the death of Bubalo, as far as I can recall.

    23 For the others a certain period was allowed for further

    24 investigations; but since the prisoners were not members

    25 of any military formations, as I was informed, I asked

  94. 1 that this should be transferred to the jurisdiction of

    2 the civilian courts who should continue the

    3 investigations. What happened after that, I cannot tell

    4 you with precision.

    5 Q. Thank you. Finally I shall show you another document,

    6 to be able to put to you one or two additional

    7 questions, with which I will complete this

    8 cross-examination, expressing my gratitude for your

    9 patience. This document refers to June 1992. It was

    10 disclosed to the Prosecution early on.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit D115/1.

    12 A. Yes, I have looked at it.

    13 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is obviously a document compiled at a

    14 time when that joint co-operation existed between the

    15 municipal TO and the HVO, because both staffs are to be

    16 found in the heading of this document. Is that not

    17 correct?

    18 A. Yes, that is what it says.

    19 Q. This document was signed by the Commander of the

    20 municipal TO and the Commander of the HVO?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. This document establishes some element for interrogating

    23 persons who had been detained in connection with the

    24 military operation Bradina?

    25 A. At that time I was engaged in fierce fighting against

  95. 1 the aggressor in Mostar on the 14th, 15th, 16th and

    2 17th. That is what is stated in the document, but I do

    3 not know any details.

    4 Q. And my last question, General, this document states

    5 explicitly that the interrogation should be carried out

    6 showing full respect for the dignity of the interrogated

    7 people, and you know that the army of the BiH sought in

    8 every respect to respect the dignity of individuals?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Thank you very much, General.

    11 A. Thank you.

    12 JUDGE JAN: General, I wish to ask a question. I wish to

    13 ask a question. HVO never regarded itself right at the

    14 beginning as part of the BiH army, is that so?

    15 A. Unfortunately, that is not correct.

    16 JUDGE JAN: The HVO regarded itself part of the BiH army?

    17 A. It is a rather tricky question, your Honours, and it is

    18 very difficult to provide a specific answer. They kept

    19 saying that they were a part of the armed forces of

    20 Bosnian Herzegovina, but they never recognised the

    21 Republican staff, nor the Supreme Command staff.

    22 JUDGE JAN: The HVO had its headquarters in Konjic town?

    23 A. The municipal headquarters was there. This was the

    24 headquarters in command of HVO units within the

    25 territory of Konjic municipality, whereas the main

  96. 1 headquarters of the HVO was in Grude.

    2 JUDGE JAN: Did HVO shift its headquarters from Konjic

    3 municipality to another place, and, if so, when?

    4 A. I think that until the aggression against the BiH army

    5 the municipal staff of Konjic of the HVO was in Konjic,

    6 and after the aggression it retreated from the territory

    7 of the Konjic municipality. The same applied to the

    8 municipal staff of Jablanica of the HVO.

    9 JUDGE JAN: When was about that time, June, July, August,

    10 when HVO --

    11 A. I do not recall the exact date, sir, but I think it was

    12 some time in September or October of 1992, when they had

    13 already started the aggression against Konjic. In any

    14 event, after the aggression on Prozor.

    15 JUDGE JAN: Thank you.

    16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Ackerman, you can continue.

    17 JUDGE JAN: I ask these questions because these orders were

    18 signed both by -- so many orders produced today -- by

    19 the Commander of the TO and the Commander of the HVO; if

    20 that was one force only one Commander would be

    21 sufficient to sign it. That is why I asked you these

    22 questions.

    23 A. Unfortunately, throughout this trial and other trials

    24 you will have a series of dilemmas regarding documents

    25 jointly signed, but that were never implemented.

  97. 1 Cross-examination by MR. ACKERMAN

    2 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, your Honour.

    3 Good afternoon, General.

    4 A. Good afternoon.

    5 Q. Had you forgotten there was one lawyer left to ask

    6 questions?

    7 A. No, I had not.

    8 Q. Well, the good news is that this is not going to take

    9 very long. I do not have much left to ask you. I want

    10 to direct your attention back to the spring of 1991, and

    11 some time immediately preceding that when you were still

    12 a serving officer with the JNA, okay?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Now, it is true, is it not, that through most of your

    15 career with the JNA the JNA was specifically designed to

    16 be and promoted the concept of brotherhood and unity, a

    17 united Yugoslavia, that basic concept?

    18 A. I think that the Yugoslav People's Army respected

    19 brotherhood and unity under the specific conditions in

    20 the army, but it was the policies of the SFRY that

    21 promoted it.

    22 Q. Yes, I understand that. I am really going back for

    23 several years, back to Tito times even. Tito was

    24 interested in the Yugoslav People's Army as being a

    25 force for promoting and maintaining his concept of

  98. 1 brotherhood and unity, is that a fair statement?

    2 A. Yes, in a certain sense.

    3 Q. By the time we get to March of 1991, it is true, is it

    4 not, that that thinking and that concept within the

    5 Yugoslav People's Army had almost totally disintegrated?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. And I think you told us that it was in fact in March of

    8 1991 that you left the Yugoslav People's Army and went

    9 to Mostar, am I right about that?

    10 A. No. In 1992.

    11 Q. It was March of 1992 that you went to Mostar?

    12 A. End of March I left the JNA, at the end of March 1992.

    13 Q. Okay. When you first formed a Brigade in Mostar, can

    14 you tell us what that date was?

    15 A. The date of the formation of the Brigade was the 15th

    16 July, after the liberation of Mostar and the

    17 proclamation of a general mobilisation in

    18 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I formed the 1st Mostar Brigade.

    19 Q. And at that point in time it would be correct to refer

    20 to you as a former JNA officer, correct?

    21 A. For all of us who left the former JNA and joined the

    22 Territorial Defence, and the HVO, they referred to us as

    23 "former officers", that is a fact.

    24 Q. Yes. In this Brigade you first formed, I assume that

    25 there were officers of lesser rank as well as soldiers

  99. 1 who had also previously served in the JNA?

    2 A. There were several officers with me of the former JNA.

    3 I think four or five of them, not more. And all the

    4 soldiers who had served who were of military age went

    5 through the JNA, except for the young ones who had not

    6 served in the JNA and joined in the defence against

    7 aggression.

    8 Q. So would you say that the majority of the personnel in

    9 that 1st Brigade you formed were former JNA associated

    10 in some way?

    11 A. I did not say most of them. I said that the command

    12 officers, that the majority of the command officers were

    13 not officers of the former JNA. There was me as the

    14 Brigade Commander, there was my Chief of Staff for a

    15 time, who was an operative officer, an operative

    16 officer, and one of the Battalion Commanders. All the

    17 others were people who were not officers. As for the

    18 troops, those who were over 25 years of age who had

    19 served in the former JNA, they had been ordinary rank

    20 and file soldiers in the JNA.

    21 Q. What I am looking for is, would you say that, taking

    22 into consideration all the people, the officers and the

    23 troops that were part of that 1st Brigade, that the

    24 majority of them had had a JNA connection of some form?

    25 A. I do not know what you mean when you say "majority".

  100. 1 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Ackerman --

    2 A. There were fewer officers than the troops.

    3 JUDGE JAN: All young men had to serve through national

    4 service in the JNA, so they all had some connection.

    5 MR. ACKERMAN: That is what I am trying to show. I am not

    6 sure the General is understanding what I am saying. It

    7 may be where we are having trouble is maybe there were a

    8 lot of young troops who had not done their military

    9 service in the JNA at the time that Brigade was formed,

    10 would that be the case?

    11 A. Yes, there were quite a few of them.

    12 Q. The last question I want to ask you, and it is just

    13 whether or not you would know this: do you know that

    14 based upon your order to take certain people into

    15 custody for investigation following the commission

    16 investigation that you had ordered and authorised, were

    17 you aware that there was a 10 day period where two of

    18 those people, namely Mr. Delic and Mr. Landzo, were

    19 imprisoned in manholes at Celebici; were you aware of

    20 that?

    21 A. No. If I had known that, I would have punished those

    22 people.

    23 Q. I would expect that is true. Thank you very much. That

    24 is all I have.

    25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?

  101. 1 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

    2 Re-examination by MR. NIEMANN

    3 MR. NIEMANN: General, I just have one question for you and

    4 that is: if a Territorial Defence unit was subordinated

    5 to and placed under a Tactical Group, would the

    6 Commander of that Territorial Defence unit be

    7 subordinate to the Tactical Group Commander?

    8 A. The notion of subordination and of any shift in

    9 subordination is quite clear. If you subordinate a unit

    10 from your command to another unit, to another command,

    11 then you do not have anything to do with that unit until

    12 that unit returns to your command pursuant to another

    13 order. But other elements may be stipulated, actually

    14 there may be parts of that unit that are not subordinate

    15 to that other command. It all depends on the

    16 assignment, on the task, and the time period for which

    17 that unit is being subordinated.

    18 Let me give you an example. One of the Defence

    19 counsel mentioned the salary of soldiers. We did not

    20 have salaries, so you cannot stipulate that he will --

    21 that such a soldier will receive the salary from this

    22 other unit; if there is no such thing as salary, if he

    23 does not get any salary. I do not know if I am being

    24 clear.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. You have answered my question. Thank

  102. 1 you, General.

    2 That is all the questions I have, your Honour.

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: General, can you kindly assist me? How

    4 do you relate the Tactical Groups which you have created

    5 in your command structure? I hope I have made the

    6 question clear. How did they come into the command

    7 structure of the military units?

    8 A. I have already explained that Tactical Groups are units

    9 of varied structure. They are of provisional

    10 character. In this previous war we formed several

    11 tactical units, Tactical Groups, to carry out certain

    12 tasks. The Supreme Command staff could stipulate that

    13 certain units from certain territory form a provisional

    14 unit which will then be labelled a Tactical Group, and

    15 assign a certain task to that group, either a defensive

    16 task or an offensive task, or to control a certain

    17 territory.

    18 These units, these Tactical Groups, at the very

    19 beginning of the war until the Corps were formed, were

    20 mostly under the command of the Supreme Command staff.

    21 When Corps were formed, the territory of

    22 Bosnia-Herzegovina controlled by the BiH army, they

    23 formed their areas of responsibility and they were

    24 covered by Corps, and then Corps commands were able to

    25 form smaller Tactical Groups to carry out certain tasks

  103. 1 in certain directions within their areas of

    2 responsibility. Commanders and other senior officers

    3 had all the competencies that other commanders and

    4 leaders at the same level had in other units, although

    5 they did not belong to the Tactical Groups. This is all

    6 I have to say.

    7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is it your proposition that every head

    8 of a Tactical Group in your command structure is

    9 independent of the other related commands, and is

    10 directly responsible to the Supreme Commander?

    11 A. A commander of the Tactical Group cannot be responsible

    12 to two or more commands. He can only be responsible to

    13 one command, and that would be a Superior Command. If

    14 the Supreme Command staff, as the command of the army,

    15 formed a Tactical Group, then it is superior to it,

    16 unless it is stipulated otherwise in the document that

    17 this Tactical Group is subordinated to another command.

    18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So in effect it is the command

    19 structure known to your military, it is known to your

    20 military, it has its own direct structure within its

    21 own, within the military?

    22 A. Yes, it existed before. It does not exist any more, but

    23 during the war it existed.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. That is all I wanted to

    25 know.

  104. 1 A. You are welcome.

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose this is all you have for this

    3 witness?

    4 MR. NIEMANN: Yes.

    5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not know how -- I am thanking you

    6 very sincerely for your co-operation and for sacrificing

    7 your custom, because you made it very clear you had a 40

    8 day custom within which you have to mourn your brother.

    9 We sincerely appreciate your sacrifice for that. We

    10 thank you very much. In addition, you have been of very

    11 great assistance in the evidence you have given and the

    12 patience you have exercised, so we thank you very much.

    13 As a soldier and a gentlemen you have actually upheld

    14 the dignity of your profession. Thank you very much.

    15 So I think this is all we have. You are discharged.

    16 A. I would like to thank you too.

    17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I had indicated this morning that

    18 the next witness that we had envisaged calling today was

    19 to be a custodian of records in relation to some

    20 documents that we wish to produce. I also said that

    21 because of pressing commitments by General Divjak that

    22 if this witness started and could not be completed today

    23 that we would be seeking to interpose General Divjak so

    24 that he may complete his evidence and get on with the

    25 other commitments he has to attend to.

  105. 1 Your Honours, in view of the time, it seems to us

    2 there is not much point in starting the custodian of

    3 records, that we should start now with General Divjak

    4 with the next 15 minutes. If your Honours permit me to

    5 do that, then Ms. McHenry will take General Divjak's

    6 evidence.

    7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it suits us as long as it fills

    8 in the programme, to finish tomorrow.

    9 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.

    10 MS. McHENRY: Good afternoon, your Honours.

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good afternoon, Ms. McHenry.

    12 MS. McHENRY: The Prosecution would now be calling General

    13 Jovan Divjak.

    14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. So let us have him.

    15 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, while the witness is being

    16 brought in I would like to advise your Honours of an

    17 issue concerning General Divjak's subpoena which is

    18 similar to an issue raised with another witness who just

    19 testified. The Prosecution had understood that

    20 Mr. Divjak had stated that he was willing to testify but

    21 he wanted the timing of his return trip after testifying

    22 arranged in conjunction with another trip he had

    23 planned. There were certain logistical problems with

    24 this, including some possible visa issues raised by the

    25 Victims and Witnesses Unit. While we were trying to

  106. 1 work those out and we were not sure of the outcome of

    2 those issues the Prosecution requested a subpoena for

    3 General Divjak.

    4 General Divjak is dissatisfied with the issuance

    5 of a subpoena and has stated he is not willing to

    6 testify unless he can first articulate his feelings on

    7 the matter to the Chamber, on the record. As has been

    8 explained to him, and has been agreed upon by General

    9 Divjak, after he has articulated his concerns the

    10 Prosecution would plan immediately to go into the

    11 questioning of Mr. Divjak as normal, without raising any

    12 further issues concerning the subpoena.

    13 JUDGE JAN: We can understand that because it is a stigma to

    14 get a subpoena, so maybe that is why the General wants

    15 to explain his position.

    16 MS. McHENRY: I think that is right. I think certainly the

    17 Prosecution attorneys were not aware that the witnesses

    18 would view it as a stigma to receive a subpoena.

    19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would you kindly swear the witness?


    21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

    22 MS. McHENRY: Good afternoon, sir?

    23 A. Good afternoon.

    24 MS. McHENRY: Sir, I have just indicated to the Trial

    25 Chamber that you wish to, on the record, publicly

  107. 1 articulate your feelings about the subpoena, and as

    2 I understand your Honours they are willing to permit you

    3 to do that. If you would like to address the Chamber

    4 about that issue, you may do so before we start the

    5 questioning.

    6 A. Thank you for presenting this problem. Your Honours, by

    7 the fact that the Tribunal has served a subpoena on me I

    8 have to state that I have been offended by that. I am

    9 offended as an inhabitant of Europe, of the world, of

    10 this planet; as a Bosniak, as a citizen of

    11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, as a citizen of Sarajevo, and as an

    12 inhabitant of Lugavina number 6 in Sarajevo. My friends

    13 and my family have been offended by that, and the

    14 subpoena has made my enemies very happy. I have come

    15 here of my own free will and that is why I state that

    16 this Tribunal, instead of protecting human rights, in a

    17 very perfidious manner in my case, and as far as I am

    18 concerned it has violated my human rights.

    19 My question is, how am I to trust this Tribunal

    20 when it plays such games with people and with their

    21 fate. I ask that the subpoena be withdrawn so that I am

    22 able to appear before this Tribunal as the Prosecution

    23 witness without this pressure. Thank you.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for your

    25 forthrightness. I think I will start with the question

  108. 1 of not being able to trust the Tribunal. Before you

    2 came in, the Prosecutor had made a statement indicating

    3 what transpired before the subpoena was issued. It is

    4 most unfortunate that it might have been a misjudgement

    5 of the situation, because from what she says you are

    6 quite willing to have attended but your programme was in

    7 conflict with another one of returning. So it appeared

    8 while this was being sorted out the subpoena was

    9 issued. I suppose occasionally these mistakes do

    10 occur. I am sure you will have been assured that it

    11 should not affect you in any way and the Trial Chamber

    12 is very grateful for your forthrightness and your

    13 willingness to assist in this case. I think we will do

    14 everything to make sure it does not occur again, and at

    15 the conclusion of the evidence that is all you need to

    16 do, the subpoena will expire normally, normally. Thank

    17 you very much.

    18 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honours.

    19 Thank you, sir. Sir, will you please state your

    20 full name?

    21 A. My name is Jovan Divjak. My father's name is Dusan, my

    22 mother's name was Emilija.

    23 Q. How old are you, sir?

    24 A. I was born on 11th March, I am Pisces, and it was in

    25 1937.

  109. 1 Q. Sir, where are you from and what is your nationality?

    2 A. I happened to be born in Belgrade because my father was

    3 a teacher. He was originally from Bosanska Krajina.

    4 I am a Serb, but I have felt always to be a Yugoslav

    5 citizen and now I feel I am a citizen of Bosnian

    6 Herzegovina and I have never felt this feeling of

    7 national affiliation but of citizenship, so I am above

    8 all a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina of Serbian descent.

    9 I am a Bosnian.

    10 Q. Sir, what is your profession?

    11 A. I am retired and until 1st March I was in the military,

    12 Bosnian army. I had the rank of a General, and in this,

    13 the previous six months I have been engaged in the

    14 dealing with children who have lost their parents in the

    15 war and I am the Chairman of the Foundation.

    16 Q. Sir, for how many years did you serve in the Bosnian

    17 military, and did you have any military position before

    18 that time?

    19 A. I graduated from the military academy in the former

    20 Yugoslav army in 1959 and until 1984 I was in the

    21 Yugoslav People's Army. From 1984 until 1992 I was in

    22 the Territorial Defence of the Republic of Bosnian

    23 Herzegovina. From the 8th April, 1992, until the 1st

    24 March, 1997, I served in the army of Bosnian

    25 Herzegovina.

  110. 1 Q. What was your position, sir, when you first joined the

    2 Bosnian army, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in April

    3 1992?

    4 A. In April 1992, at first in the Territorial Defence and

    5 later in the army of Bosnian Herzegovina, I joined those

    6 entities as the Commander of the Territorial Defence of

    7 the Sarajevo district, which was a part of the

    8 Republican Territorial Defence staff; and I was waiting

    9 for the implementation of a court decision, because

    10 I was to be sent to the military prison in Nis because

    11 I had, at the time when the Yugoslav People's Army

    12 launched an aggression against Croatia, I had made a

    13 decision that a part of the weapons from the warehouses

    14 of the Yugoslav People's Army be given to the police in

    15 Kiseljak, because the government of Bosnian Herzegovina

    16 had issued a decision that the security alert level be

    17 upgraded, and they asked me, as the Commander of the

    18 Sarajevo district Territorial Defence, to assist them

    19 with this provision of weapons. So at the time when

    20 Sarajevo came under attack, I was waiting for the

    21 Yugoslav People's Army to send me to prison.

    22 Fortunately for me and for the others at the very

    23 beginning of the attack on Sarajevo, I was offered to

    24 join the Territorial Defence of Bosnian Herzegovina and

    25 I accepted that offer gladly.

  111. 1 Q. And when you first became a member of the army of

    2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, who was your Commander?

    3 A. The first Commander of the Territorial Defence of

    4 Bosnian Herzegovina at the time was Colonel Hasan

    5 Efendic. The idea of the Presidency of Bosnian

    6 Herzegovina was that the Territorial Defence of Bosnian

    7 Herzegovina in its personnel and in the command

    8 structure represent the percentage of the nationalities

    9 that existed in Bosnian Herzegovina. It was their

    10 assessment that for the Defence of Bosnian Herzegovina

    11 it would be very important that at the very top there

    12 are representatives of all the three nations. The

    13 Commander of the Territorial Defence, Mr. Efendic is of

    14 Bosniak origin, he is a Muslim. His deputy was

    15 Mr. Sebar. Mr. Sebar was appointed as his deputy, he was

    16 a Croat, and I was offered and now it was up to me to

    17 decide whether I want to do so or not, to join the staff

    18 of the Territorial Defence as the other deputy.

    19 When we talk about the national or the ethnic

    20 structure, I am very pleased that I can tell you that in

    21 the Territorial Defence staff the percentage of the

    22 representatives of all the ethnic groups, that they were

    23 representatives from all the ethnic groups. These were

    24 the people who wanted to defend Bosnia-Herzegovina

    25 within its historical borders. The main staff of the

  112. 1 Territorial Defence, there was 12 per cent of Serbs, 18

    2 per cent of Croats, and the rest were Bosniaks. And

    3 thereby the decision of the Presidency of Bosnian

    4 Herzegovina was in fact implemented, that the

    5 Territorial Defence should respect the interests of all

    6 the three constitutional peoples.

    7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose you will stop here and

    8 continue tomorrow morning. The Trial Chamber will now

    9 rise and continue tomorrow at 10 o'clock.

    10 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

    11 (5.30 pm)

    12 (Adjourned until 10.00 am

    13 on Tuesday 28th October 1997)