1 --- Upon commencing at 10.07 a.m.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

3 gentlemen. May we have the appearances now, please?

4 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, please, my name

5 is Niemann. I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry

6 and Mr. Turone for the Prosecution.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The appearances for the

8 Defence?

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

10 My name is Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr.

11 Zejnil Delalic, along with my colleague Professor

12 Eugene O'Sullivan from Canada.

13 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm

14 Zelko Olujic, attorney from Croatia, Defence counsel

15 for Mr. Zelko Mucic. At the same time, I apologise for

16 my colleague Mr. Tomislav Kuzmanovic who will be

17 joining us in the courtroom after the first break.

18 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

19 I'm Salih Karabdic from Sarajevo, appearing on behalf

20 of Mr. Hazim Delic, together with my colleague Mr. Tom

21 Moran from Houston, Texas.

22 MS. BOLER: Good morning, Your Honours. My

23 name is Nancy Boler. I represent Esad Landzo. I am

24 from Houston, Texas. I'm here today with my colleague

25 from Houston, Mr. David Eisen, while Cynthia McMurrey

1 is still out of town. Thank you.

2 MR. EISEN: Good morning, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will have the witness

4 now.

5 (The witness entered court)

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind the witness he is

7 still under oath.

8 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that

9 you're still under oath.

10 THE WITNESS: I understand.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please proceed, Ms.

12 McHenry.

13 MIDHAT CEROVAC

14 Cross-examination by Ms. McHenry (Continued)

15 Q. Good morning, sir.

16 A. Good morning to you too.

17 Q. Sir, yesterday you stated that there were no

18 independent or private units in Konjic. Is it then

19 your testimony that the HOS units and the Splitska

20 Brigade were always subordinate to the TO?

21 A. What I said applied to the armed structures

22 of the municipality of Konjic. I didn't mention the

23 Split Brigade or the HOS.

24 Q. Well, were there structures present in Konjic

25 that were not part of the municipality of Konjic; I

1 say, "armed structures"?

2 A. Yes, temporarily. They came to the Konjic

3 municipality. Actually, it was the Split Brigade.

4 Q. I actually don't need you to explain that. I

5 think we've already heard testimony. I just wanted you

6 to confirm it. I think we will be done more quickly if

7 you can answer a question with a simple "yes" or "no"

8 or "I don't know," and then you do so.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Counsel need not ask

10 questions she does not need the answers to.

11 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you regard that as

13 relevant, but go to the areas which really are

14 something.

15 MS. McHENRY: Yes, sir.

16 Q. Sir, was General Daidza in the Konjic area?

17 A. No, never. I don't know who you're referring

18 to when you say "General Daidza." I know no one by

19 that name.

20 Q. Sir, you stated that with respect to the

21 swearing in of the Gijret unit, it was agreed that

22 Mr. Delalic would speak since he had helped provide

23 uniforms. Was it also agreed during the morning

24 briefing, that Mr. Delalic would wear a military

25 costume and that everyone would act as if Mr. Delalic

1 had command authority?

2 JUDGE JAN: You're asking two questions.

3 First, was it decided that he will wear a uniform;

4 second, that he would have authority. Split up your

5 question.

6 MS. McHENRY:

7 Q. Sir, was it agreed at the morning briefing

8 that Mr. Delalic would wear a military costume?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Was it agreed that people would act as if

11 Mr. Delalic had command authority?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you stated, with

14 respect to Celebici, that the prisoners who were

15 brought to Celebici were people who had participated in

16 operations or military operations or had been carrying

17 arms. How do you know that?

18 A. You have used a term to describe people who

19 participated in operations. These were people who used

20 firearms against the legal forces of the state of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. For us, they were rebels who had

22 violated the integrity and sovereignty of the state of

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 Q. Maybe you could listen more carefully to my

25 exact question. My exact question was not who were the

1 persons. My question was how do you know the persons,

2 who were brought to Celebici, had used firearms against

3 the legal forces of the state of Bosnia?

4 A. Let me tell you, figuratively, there was a

5 struggle. We could hear the shots and there were

6 casualties on our side.

7 Q. Well, sir, you would agree with me that it

8 would be a more accurate statement to say that after

9 the military operations in Bradina and Donje Selo,

10 almost all the men were captured and imprisoned, and

11 the sorting out of who participated in the operations

12 and who did not was to take place later; is that a fair

13 statement?

14 A. I wouldn't agree with your statement, not all

15 of them. When you say "all of them," you probably want

16 to imply that we carried out ethnic cleansing. No.

17 When you say "everyone," that implies women and

18 children and the elderly. I absolutely do not agree

19 with your statement.

20 Q. How about if the statement is modified to say

21 men of military age; would you then agree it's a fair

22 statement?

23 A. They were rebels carrying weapons of the

24 Yugoslav People's Army, who had been organised in

25 advance and prepared to carry out such a thing.

1 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that almost all

2 the military-aged men from Bradina and Donje Selo were

3 captured and taken to Celebici?

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness has already

5 answered this question twice as far as he knows. I see

6 no point in asking the question again.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think so. What

8 counsel is asking is whether all men of military age

9 were so taken to the prison. I think that's quite

10 different from what has been said already.

11 Is it true that all those military-aged men

12 were taken to the Celebici prison?

13 A. Your Honours, the military conscripts were

14 considered by us, to be only the citizens of Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina, who recognised the state at the referendum

16 and who, by decision of the presidency of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, joined the Territorial Defence.

18 The Serb rebels did not do so, and I cannot consider

19 them military conscripts. They were military

20 conscripts on the side of the Yugoslav People's Army

21 and the SDS. They were rebels against their own land,

22 against their own state, the one they were born in.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, what happened

24 in Bradina and Donje Selo to those men of military age

25 which were taken to Celebici prison? How did you get

1 to take such men to Celebici prison? This is what

2 counsel is trying to find out because you would have to

3 make a determination about those who you would take to

4 the Celebici prison.

5 A. I wasn't present everywhere, at every trench,

6 at every firing position. Evidently, there was a

7 struggle. The Serb forces were assisted from the air.

8 Our forces were shelled. So all those who put up armed

9 resistance among the rebel forces and who, upon

10 capture, were carrying firearms, it is exclusively

11 those men that were taken into custody.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Does this help your

13 question?

14 MS. McHENRY:

15 Q. Sir, is it your testimony that only those

16 people, who were carrying firearms when they were

17 captured, were taken into custody; is that your

18 testimony, sir?

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection, Your Honour. The

20 witness has just answered the question.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you kindly answer

22 the question? I think you could. It's a simple,

23 straightforward question.

24 A. Could you please repeat it once again?

25 MS. McHENRY:

1 Q. Sir, is it your testimony that only people

2 who were carrying firearms, when they were captured,

3 were taken into custody?

4 A. Those who upon capture -- there were several

5 ways of capturing people, if you catch him, capture him

6 on the lines, on the front-line, if he is putting up

7 resistance or if he surrendered in his own home where

8 there were weapons. All the weapons were military

9 weapons. According to the formal law, not a single

10 citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the former Yugoslavia

11 was not allowed, to have in his possession, military

12 weapons, and they had, exclusively, weapons of the JNA.

13 Q. Sir, is the answer to my question "yes?"

14 A. The answer to your question is "yes," but

15 with this addition, that also in homes, in houses,

16 because they also had weapons in their houses and on

17 them, so with this addition that I have just made.

18 Q. Thank you. Were there women who were

19 arrested and taken to Celebici?

20 A. I do not know.

21 Q. Sir, you stated that the MUP took the

22 decision to set up Celebici as a prison. Were you

23 present when the decision to set up Celebici was taken?

24 A. Are you thinking of the place where the

25 decision was taken?

1 Q. Yes, sir.

2 A. I was not.

3 Q. How is it you know that it was MUP who took

4 the decision to set up Celebici as a prison?

5 A. I know because I was -- I already said in my

6 statement that it was a technical decision made out of

7 necessity. On the 4th of May already, the MUP building

8 and the building of the TO headquarters was hit by

9 grenades, and the only prison that we had in the 70's

10 and the 80's were two premises in the MUP building.

11 This decision was taken out of necessity, and in this

12 MUP prison, there were also some Muslims.

13 Q. Sir, why don't you please listen to my

14 question. My question was not "Why was the decision

15 taken?" My question was "How do you know that it was

16 the MUP who took the decision?"

17 A. Only the MUP can take such a decision as part

18 of its competence.

19 Q. Now, sir, you would agree with me that the

20 MUP had no jurisdiction over the Celebici barracks,

21 which was a military facility?

22 A. I would not agree with you.

23 Q. Did MUP have jurisdiction over the Celebici

24 barracks?

25 A. For a period of time, yes, but not

1 throughout.

2 Q. Well, sir, would you agree with me that,

3 prior to any prisoners being placed there, Celebici was

4 considered a military facility and, indeed, one that

5 had been captured by you and others, as members of the

6 TO; is that correct?

7 A. It was considered that this facility of the

8 ex-Yugoslav People's Army had been placed under the

9 control of this state and its bodies, the state of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that prior to

12 prisoners being placed there, the TO had jurisdiction

13 over the Celebici facility, wouldn't you?

14 A. I wouldn't agree with you.

15 Q. Who had authority over it, before prisoners

16 were placed there?

17 A. In my prior statement or, rather, the one I

18 made yesterday, as far as I recall, in the Celebici

19 barracks, after the barracks were taken over with the

20 aim of physical security and accommodation, members of

21 the MUP and units of the HVO police were staying there.

22 Q. Well, sir, are you saying that the TO turned

23 over its authority to the HVO and the MUP?

24 A. I wouldn't put it like that. We didn't think

25 about jurisdiction. Our aim was to gain control over

1 that facility. We were not interested in the least who

2 would provide the security for that facility. There

3 were the legal structures, the MUP and the HVO. Our

4 aim was to gain possession of the material that was

5 essential to us and, of course, to place the whole

6 facility under the control of the new state, the new

7 authorities.

8 Q. Thank you. Sir, during its existence from

9 May to November 1992, was Celebici a military prison, a

10 civilian prison, something else?

11 A. The question is not clear. Could you please

12 be more precise?

13 Q. During its existence, between May and

14 November 1992, was Celebici a military prison?

15 A. A military prison, yes, because in a military

16 prison, there were members of the Territorial Defence

17 who did not carry out certain duties. Like, for

18 instance, they didn't go to the front-lines. They

19 abandoned positions and so on and so forth. There were

20 also some members, some citizens of Konjic, who had

21 committed certain criminal offences and for whom the

22 MUP was responsible, so they had to detain them there

23 because there were no courts.

24 Q. Well, with respect to the Serb prisons, were

25 they in a military prison or were they in a civilian

1 prison or was it mixed at the time, and people weren't

2 concerned about jurisdiction or labels?

3 A. All I know is their status. I don't know

4 exactly where they were accommodated. They had the

5 status of prisoners of war.

6 Q. Sir, who was the commander of the Celebici

7 camp?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. And is it -- am I correct in saying that you

10 don't know who was the commander for the entire period

11 between May and December, 1992?

12 A. That is not how you put the question to me.

13 Let me tell you. For instance, in 1993, the commander

14 of the Celebici barracks was Mr. Sijacic, a former

15 officer of the JNA and a member of the 4th core.

16 Q. Between the period May, 1992, and December,

17 1992, do you know anyone who was commander during that

18 period of the Celebici prison?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who do you know who was commander at some

21 point between May and December, 1992?

22 A. I don't know who was throughout that period,

23 towards the end of July, I learned that Mr. Pavo Mucic

24 was the director, not the commander.

25 Q. And how did you learn that Mr. Mucic was the

1 director?

2 A. I learned in the Town of Konjic.

3 Q. You just heard people talking about it, is

4 that correct?

5 A. Would you please repeat the question, I

6 didn't hear it quite.

7 Q. Are you saying that you just heard general

8 people talking about Mucic's role as commander and

9 that's how you learned?

10 A. I learned it in the municipal staff of the

11 Territorial Defence. Purely en person in a

12 conversation. I didn't come to that conclusion at my

13 insistence.

14 Q. And who was your conversation with? Who told

15 you that was Mr. Mucic was commander?

16 A. I can't remember. I can't recall exactly.

17 There were many people there.

18 Q. Who was the deputy commander?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Okay. Do you know anyone who worked in

21 Celebici as a guard between May and November, 1992?

22 A. I think I may know one person, his name was

23 Mrndzic, later on he was a member of the 7th Brigade,

24 which I commanded. So I knew him rather well.

25 Q. And he's the only person that you know who

1 worked in Celebici, at any time, between May and

2 November, 1992, besides Mr. Mucic?

3 A. I did not say that it was the only person

4 whom I knew. I also saw some other guys taken out whom

5 I did not know. Once I went to the TO warehouse to

6 look at some 120 millimetre projection. I wanted to

7 see whether the delivery was made in full. It's a

8 large territory, the Municipality in Konjic, I could

9 not know -- 43,000, I could not know everyone.

10 Q. Do you know the names of any persons besides

11 Mr. Mucic and Mr. Mrndzic, who worked in the Celebici

12 prison between May and December, 1992?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Now, sir, you testified that the guards at

15 Celebici were not subordinate to Tactical Group 1 or to

16 the coordinator. Please tell us for the period between

17 May and November, 1992, to whom were the guards

18 subordinate?

19 A. I said, that at first, members of the

20 ministry of the interior were there, as well as the

21 military police. And later on, there were also members

22 of the TO there. And the members of MUP, as is normal,

23 were subordinate to the chief of police and the HVO

24 members, through the HVO commander and the guards were

25 subordinate to the commander of the municipal staff.

1 So these were three separate chains of command in terms

2 of subordination.

3 Q. When was it that the TO had some role in

4 operating Celebici prison?

5 A. I believed that this happened later on, maybe

6 in October or November. I cannot recall exactly. In

7 November, I was already involved in the establishment

8 of the 7th Brigade.

9 Q. Is it your -- can you be sure, sir, that the

10 TO was not involved in June, July or August? Or don't

11 you know?

12 A. I cannot tell you specifically when. I

13 remember during the course of our activities at

14 headquarters, there were certain forces from an unit

15 called the Konjic 1. I know that guys from that unit

16 went to provide security for the barracks. I don't

17 know exactly what period this was, but I know that it

18 was from that formation that people went, that is

19 certain forces went to provide the security.

20 Q. Well, sir, in July, when you were functioning

21 as the commander of the TO, were the guards in Celebici

22 subordinate to you?

23 A. You mean when I was in the Glavaticevo

24 sector?

25 Q. I mean during the period, when you were

1 functioning as commander of the TO?

2 A. No. I was discharging my duties of the

3 commander, exclusively in the combat activities. I was

4 never in the office. These were combat operations and

5 that was my sole involvement in it, as a commander.

6 Q. Well, sir, if Mr. Ramic was out of the

7 country and you were functioning in his role in part,

8 who in the TO -- to whom in the TO were the guards

9 subordinate to, during that period?

10 A. You are making a statement that I cannot

11 understand at all.

12 Q. Well, sir, am I correct that when Mr. Ramic

13 left, he told you to take over as commander of the TO,

14 is that correct?

15 A. No. Would you want me to quote you, what Mr.

16 Ramic told me through the communications line?

17 Q. Certainly, sir.

18 A. Take over control and command of the combat

19 activities.

20 Q. Sir, do you know who was taking over the

21 command and the control of the other duties of the TO

22 commander?

23 A. The complete activity of the entire

24 headquarters was in the field and that was during the

25 operation at Borci.

1 Q. Sir, do I understand you, that during the

2 operation in Borci, the entire TO staff was in the

3 field and their only duty was combat, is that what

4 you're saying?

5 A. Yes. Out of the -- it was also Mr. Tahirovic

6 and Mr. Kevric who remained in the Town of Konjic from

7 the ranking officers.

8 Q. So was it Mr. Tahirovic and Mr. Kevric who

9 were taking over as TO commander with respect to duties

10 other than combat duties?

11 A. Yes, they had some specific tasks to perform.

12 Q. What were their specific task?

13 A. Mr. Tahirovic was tasked with being

14 constantly present at the communications centre. To

15 review from clients, to coordinate with field

16 commanders. That means the commanders who were in

17 charge of the front lines-- I don't know if you know,

18 but we were, we were engaged in a defence of the town

19 and we held lines from which we did not move. He also

20 was in charge of being in touch with the health centre,

21 regarding the wounded, which would be coming from the

22 field. For instance, so that the searchers would be

23 prepared that blood supplies would be ready because

24 this was a daily need. And to report to us regularly,

25 that is to us in the field, what the situation was on

1 the front lines -- defence lines.

2 And as far as Mr. Sefkija Kevric is

3 concerned, his role was based on the duty that he had,

4 and he was a logistics officer and his activity

5 consisted of -- to look after the resources that we had

6 in our warehouses and depots: dry food, ordinance,

7 equipment. To regularly supply us with this material

8 at Mount Prenj. And in the south eastern area of the

9 municipality in the area of Glavaticevo, together with

10 Mr. Delalic, who was somewhere in the middle of that

11 whole area.

12 Q. So who had responsibility for the Celebici

13 prison, during this time from the TO?

14 A. Personally, at that time, I was -- I did not

15 think about Celebici. Madam, I was in a very difficult

16 surroundings at that time. I had a very responsible

17 role to play. And one wrong assessment, one wrong

18 judgement of me was -- could have cost lives of many

19 young men. And my entire mental activity was focused

20 on that. So, my thoughts were not in Konjic, about

21 Konjic.

22 Q. Now, sir, if I understand you correctly,

23 during this Borci operation, Mr. Kevric, who was the

24 military logistics officer remained in Konjic and Mr.

25 Delalic became a logistics officer on the front line,

1 is that correct?

2 A. It was not a front line.

3 Q. In the field, but not on the front line?

4 A. The front line was not far off, but in

5 military terms, the front line is just a bit different.

6 Q. You testified yesterday that Mr. Delalic had

7 been asked to participate in this military operation.

8 Who was it who ask Mr. Delalic to participate in these

9 military operations?

10 A. Mr. Esad Ramic.

11 Q. During the time Mr. Delalic was fulfilling

12 these military, did he still have the position as

13 coordinator?

14 A. Absolutely.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you would agree and you

16 may have already stated, that the prisoners in Celebici

17 were prisoners of war protected under the Geneva

18 convention, applicable to prisoners of war?

19 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, just to be

20 consistent, I'll object the that. That's a legal

21 conclusion and should be made by the Court and not by

22 the witness.

23 MS. McHENRY: I'm sorry, Your Honour I didn't

24 hear you.

25 JUDGE JAN: Put some other question.

1 MS. McHENRY:

2 Q. Sir, was it the opinion of the Bosnia

3 military that the prisoners in Celebici were prisoners

4 of war protected under the Geneva convention,

5 applicable to prisoners of war?

6 MR. MORAN: Same objection, Your Honour.

7 MS. McHENRY: He's entitled to say that. And

8 he's a member of the Bosnia military and can say as a

9 fact whether or not they were so considered.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How did you take those

11 prisoners, which you put in the prisons there? How did

12 you -- what to you is their status?

13 THE WITNESS: I think I have already stated

14 that several times. They were prisoners of war. They

15 were rebels against the country -- the state, their own

16 country.

17 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

18 Q. Now, sir, you stated that you and others in

19 Konjic paid heed to respect of human rights and

20 international law. It's true, isn't it, sir, that you

21 issued a written order that any time the Serbs shelled

22 Konjic, you would have a Serb prisoner taken out of the

23 Musala prison and killed?

24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, at this point, I

25 think the Court might want to read this man his rights

1 under Rule 42.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's hear that question

3 again.

4 MS. McHENRY:

5 Q. Sir, it's true, isn't it, that you issued a

6 written order that any time the Serbs shelled Konjic,

7 you would have a Serb prisoner taken out of the Musala

8 prison and killed?

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Who issued?

10 MS. McHENRY: This witness issued. My

11 question is, did this witness issue a written order to

12 this effect?

13 THE WITNESS: Madam, you first said here and

14 you said specifically, and I quote your words, when --

15 during the -- every shelling, you said, that I said,

16 that we killed some prisoners. In other words, you

17 have just accused me here. You've charged me and I

18 would like to ask the Court to protect me from these

19 allegations.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that true? It's a

21 simple thing.

22 THE WITNESS: This is not true, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's absolute.

24 MS. McHENRY:

25 Q. Sir, am I correct that in June of 1993, you

1 were detained and interviewed by, among other people,

2 Agan Nezir?

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, objection to

4 this question.

5 JUDGE JAN: Credibility.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What are you objecting

7 to a question? If he's not detained, he could say so,

8 and find out whatever answer he gives.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, the problem is

10 not whether somebody was detained or not, all kinds of

11 things happened during the war. It has to do with how

12 the prosecution is using certain documents that under

13 our law cannot be used in these proceedings.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it's a simple

15 question.

16 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I am prepared to

17 answer this question.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's a simple question.

19 THE WITNESS: Go ahead, please.

20 MS. McHENRY:

21 Q. Sir, is it correct that in June of '93, you

22 were arrested and you subsequently on June 19th of

23 1993, gave a written statement?

24 A. Yes, that segment is correct. I was arrested

25 on 16 June 1993. And I could not really recall when it

1 was that I actually gave the statement.

2 Q. And is it correct, sir, that you stated in

3 your statement, "On one occasion, I even issued a

4 written order and sent it to all the units and

5 commands, even the 4th core command, the war presidency

6 and the exchange commission to the effect that" --

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: To the reading of the

9 statement to him? What is it you're objecting to?

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: My objection is to of using

11 the statement, that according to our law, cannot be

12 used. This was an information interview. This is

13 under seal and it cannot be used against any person who

14 gives them. So, in our law, this cannot be used for --

15 in a court of law. This is something that is given to

16 the police or the investigating magistrate and this is

17 always sealed and this cannot be used and this is

18 the -- this is my objection.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you, we've heard

20 your objection. Counsel.

21 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, sir.

22 Q. Would you like me to start again or just

23 start where I left off?

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Start again.

25 MS. McHENRY:

1 Q. Sir, is it correct that in your written

2 statement, you stated: "On one occasion, I even issued

3 a written order and sent it to all the units and

4 commands, even the 4th core command, the war presidency

5 and the exchange commission, to the effect that, for

6 every shell fired from the aggressor's positions, I

7 would take out a Chetnik from the Musala detention

8 centre and kill him, for which I had, in fact,

9 appointed a group. After issuing this order,

10 representatives of the 4th core arrived in Konjic and

11 prevented me from doing this." Is that what you

12 stated, sir, in June of 1993?

13 A. I never stated anything of that kind in June

14 of 1993. And all information interviews which were

15 conducted on this topic were -- never concerned this

16 topic.

17 Q. If I may have the usher's assistance?

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is his answer to

19 your question.

20 MS. McHENRY: I am going to show him a

21 statement and see if he recognises his signature.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think it makes a

23 difference even if he did.

24 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, I certainly

25 want to have this statement introduced as impeachment,

1 so Your Honours can evaluate his credibility. And I

2 think to do that, I have to at least have him recognise

3 his signature. If Your Honours wish me to seek to have

4 it introduced without having him recognise his

5 signature, I can do that. But I certainly think I am

6 entitled, for purposes of evaluating his credibility,

7 to have this statement introduced, solely for purposes

8 of impeachment, not for any other reason.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Impeachment on what

10 respect?

11 MS. McHENRY: Impeachment on his ability to

12 tell the truth, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Of the structure of the

14 (indiscernible) organisation.

15 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, I certainly

16 believe --

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You know what evidence

18 he's been giving.

19 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour and I believe

20 --

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't see the sense in

22 it. Actually, it depends on someone who gives evidence

23 on opinions or things which are not so recorded --

24 which are not authenticated in any other way. But when

25 the evidence is given all along, noted and accepted and

1 not even disputed, I don't think you need, but it's

2 your position to pursue whatever method you like, but

3 it doesn't make any difference.

4 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honour. And I

5 will point out there are some things that this witness

6 says that are undisputed, but there are some things he

7 stated that are certainly disputed by us and I am going

8 to seek to introduce this for purposes of evaluating

9 his credibility.

10 Q. Sir, have you had a chance to look at that

11 document and can you tell us whether or not that's your

12 signature on the document?

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we would like

14 to see the original document. We have just received

15 some copies of it here.

16 MS. McHENRY: Well, at this point, I don't

17 believe the original is necessary. If this witness

18 recognises his signature, it's not necessary that we

19 have an original. And I will just remind Your Honours

20 that throughout this proceeding, persons including

21 large numbers of defence witnesses have authenticated

22 documents by using copies and statements.

23 Q. Sir, do you recognise your signature on that

24 document?

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection the witness has --

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Witness is here, he can

2 say what he wants to say.

3 THE WITNESS: I recognise the signature only

4 on the back page. And during the investigation against

5 me, I never signed any of the records on multiple

6 pages.

7 MS. McHENRY:

8 Q. Your Honour, at this point I tender the

9 document -- I don't know the number?

10 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked

11 Prosecutor exhibit 240.

12 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: I object to admission of this

14 document.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- Notes the objection.

16 MS. McHENRY:

17 Q. Now, sir, how many times, approximately,

18 between May and December, 1992, were you in the

19 Celebici barracks?

20 A. I was there, it was the first time, I can't

21 remember the exact date, with Mr. Kevric, to visit a

22 warehouse and to see whether the material we had

23 received were adequate. I was there during the

24 swearing in ceremony. That's as far as I can recall.

25 I may have been on other occasions too, but I remember

1 this swearing in. And in connection with the TO

2 warehouse, where logistics officers and drivers would

3 go often and also in the month of April, when we took

4 over control of the facility.

5 Q. Well, sir, you were in Celebici in the end of

6 May, beginning of June, 1992 when prisoners were being

7 brought into the camp and being beaten, weren't you?

8 JUDGE JAN: And were being beaten, first put

9 in they were beaten.

10 MS. McHENRY:

11 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that you were in

12 Celebici at some time around the end of May or

13 beginning of June, 1992 when prisoners were being

14 brought into the camp?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. Sir, do you remember being in Celebici on one

17 occasion when prisoners were being beaten?

18 A. I never saw that and I was not in a position

19 to see it there.

20 Q. Sir, if you know, what was done to ensure

21 that the persons who worked in Celebici understood the

22 need to treat prisoners humanely?

23 JUDGE JAN: Was it his responsibility to

24 teach them?

25 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I didn't ask him

1 if it was his responsibility.

2 JUDGE JAN: Well, ask him that.

3 MS. McHENRY: Even if it wasn't his

4 responsibility, he still might know since he was a

5 member of the joint command and the TO staff. First of

6 all, I would just like to ask if he knows and then I

7 can ask if it was his responsibility.

8 Q. Sir, do you know if anything was done to

9 ensure that the persons who worked in Celebici

10 understood the need to treat the prisoners humanely?

11 A. I think, that I said, that there was an order

12 by the joint command to members of the military

13 investigations commission having to do with correct

14 treatment in the process of presenting evidence, that

15 no coercion should be used and so on. Such an order

16 was drafted and signed by both of the people in charge.

17 Q. That order was sent to the coordinator,

18 Mr. Delalic, wasn't it also?

19 A. I don't know. I know that it was sent to

20 members of the military investigations commission.

21 MS. McHENRY: Can I just ask that the witness

22 be shown Defence Exhibit 145-A5D-18? Just before the

23 Registrar does, can I see it first to make sure it's

24 the right document? Yes, it is.

25 Q. Sir, does that refresh your recollection as

1 to whether or not the order that you've just referred

2 to was sent to Mr. Delalic, as coordinator?

3 JUDGE JAN: Is that his order signed by him?

4 MS. McHENRY: It's not signed by him, but he

5 has just testified about it, Your Honour. In fact, he

6 testified --

7 JUDGE JAN: How would he know it was sent to

8 the coordinator? This document is not signed by him.

9 Somebody has sent some document to a coordinator. How

10 can he say it was really sent?

11 MS. McHENRY: Well, he can certainly say it

12 was directed to and, in fact, he has just stated that

13 it was directed to the investigation committee. In the

14 same way he can testify that it was sent to the

15 military investigation committee, I assume he can state

16 if --

17 Q. Sir, was this document directed to

18 Mr. Delalic as coordinator?

19 A. With all due respect, Madam, the content of

20 this text does not apply to the detainees in Celebici.

21 Q. I'm sorry, sir. When you just were referring

22 to a document that was signed by Mr. Ramic and

23 Mr. Zebic, about how interrogations were conducted.

24 Are you talking about a different document than this?

25 A. If you understood me well, I did not say that

1 the document was written in the joint command as to how

2 they would be conducted. That is what you said. I

3 know that a document was written exclusively to the

4 military investigations commission regarding their

5 interviews and interrogations, that they have to be

6 correct, they should not resort to force and so on, but

7 this document, this document refers to the military

8 operation of Bradina. This was probably obtained

9 through intelligence.

10 Q. I'm sorry, sir, you're indicating that there

11 was a different document, not the one that has just

12 been shown to you dated 15th of June, 1992, that was

13 written and given to the military investigations

14 commission; correct?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. It's your testimony that this document dated

17 15th of June, 1992 had nothing to do with the prisoners

18 in Celebici; is that correct?

19 A. It has nothing to do with them, according to

20 the contents, according to the wording. Would you

21 allow me to comment on this text?

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How do you expect him to

23 give you details of a document --

24 MS. McHENRY:

25 Q. Let me just ask that. Sir, this document

1 before you, is this a document that you drafted or that

2 you saw in June of 1992?

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The document has been

4 shown to --

5 A. I'm not talking about this document. I see

6 this document for the first time.

7 MS. McHENRY:

8 Q. Am I correct that this document, is a

9 document, that you did not draft and that you never saw

10 in June of 1992; correct?

11 JUDGE JAN: That's what he says. He said he

12 saw it for the first time now. That's what he said.

13 The second question you're asking is not right.

14 A. But in a statement I said, that I

15 participated in the drafting of documents on behalf of

16 the joint command linked to security of persons,

17 property and areas inhabited by citizens of Serb

18 ethnicity. One such document, I drew up personally,

19 linked to the protection --

20 Q. Sir, I think you have testified about that

21 document and I believe, in fact, Ms. Residovic even

22 showed it to you. I don't think we need you to repeat

23 that.

24 Sir, other than the document that you've just

25 referred to, that we don't have, that was drafted for

1 the military investigation committee, are you aware of

2 any measures taken to ensure that the guards at

3 Celebici understood the need to treat the prisoners

4 humanely?

5 JUDGE JAN: The question is not clear. Did

6 you draft any document directing the guards how they

7 should treat the prisoners?

8 A. No, I personally did not. That is not my

9 responsibility. My job description is quite

10 different. I'm not working in the security sector.

11 MS. McHENRY:

12 Q. Is it correct then, sir, that you have no

13 idea whether or not any measures were taken to instruct

14 the guards in Celebici?

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think he has

16 made such a claim.

17 JUDGE JAN: He said he had nothing to do with

18 the security. He just said that. How does your next

19 question arise?

20 MS. McHENRY: Because he has testified at

21 great length, in direct, about various things,

22 including who the detainees in Celebici were and how

23 they were treated, and I think I'm allowed to ask him

24 --

25 JUDGE JAN: That has nothing to do with how

1 the prisoners were to be treated by the guards, the

2 instructions in regard to that. How are the two

3 related, the question you're asking and what his

4 position was? He says he had nothing to do with the

5 security; therefore, he had nothing to do with the

6 prison. So how would he know what instructions were

7 given to the guards?

8 MS. McHENRY:

9 Q. Sir, is it correct that you had nothing to do

10 with the Celebici prison?

11 A. Absolutely not. I have given a very brief

12 description of what it was I was supposed to do.

13 Q. Sir, let me move on. Do you know anything

14 about who, if anyone, arranged for the visits of the

15 Red Cross to the Celebici camp?

16 JUDGE JAN: First ask him, does he know about

17 the visit of the Red Cross -- you asked the second

18 question but you omitted the first question. Does he

19 know about the visit of the Red Cross to the camp?

20 MS. McHENRY:

21 Q. Sir, do you know whether or not the Red Cross

22 ever visited the Celebici camp?

23 A. I heard that an international organisation

24 did go to Celebici. I heard something to that effect.

25 I don't know the name of the organisation and I don't

1 know why they went, really. I just heard that they

2 went to inform themselves.

3 Q. Sir, during the time you were in the TO, did

4 you ever see any orders signed by Mr. Delalic,

5 regarding Celebici?

6 A. No, I never did.

7 Q. And that would include any orders from

8 Mr. Delalic that -- well, let me just go on. Sir, did

9 you ever see at any time between May and November 1992

10 any orders or any decisions from the war presidency

11 regarding Celebici?

12 A. I did not.

13 Q. Now, sir, you testified, in direct, about a

14 military investigation committee that had been set up.

15 Were you aware, sir, that Mr. Delalic worked with that

16 committee and gave them various instructions?

17 A. I just know what I have already told you, who

18 were the members of the commission, where they came

19 from, in general terms, and the joint staff did give

20 its signature and everything else. The link to actual

21 instructions, that is something I hear of for the first

22 time.

23 Q. Now, sir, as a member of the staff, were you

24 aware that after a short period of time in June,

25 Mr. Pajic and other members decided that they could not

1 continue to work in Celebici and wrote a report about

2 the problems in Celebici?

3 A. I'm not aware of that. I only know that

4 Mr. Pajic was withdrawn, to form the military police

5 because he was a former officer of the JNA and he had

6 certain experience in the field. In the meantime, at

7 that time, I was outside Konjic.

8 Q. Well, sir, then if you were outside Konjic, I

9 take it you don't know whether or not Mr. Pajic was

10 still a member of the military investigation committee

11 at the time he was taken to form the military police?

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that supposed to be a

13 question or a comment?

14 JUDGE JAN: You make such a long statement

15 that includes three or four --

16 MS. McHENRY: Okay.

17 Q. Sir, do you know whether or not at the time

18 Mr. Pajic was withdrawn to form the military police, do

19 you know whether or not he was still a member of the

20 military investigation committee?

21 JUDGE JAN: If he was withdrawn, how could he

22 be a member of that commission then?

23 MS. McHENRY:

24 Q. Sir, do you know when Mr. Pajic stopped being

25 a member of the military investigation committee?

1 A. I don't know exactly.

2 Q. Now, sir, in your direct testimony, when

3 speaking about who had authority to release prisoners

4 in Celebici, you reported that some prisoners were

5 released by the military investigation committee. I

6 ask, how do you know that?

7 A. One of my first conversations with a member

8 of the military investigation commission was held in

9 the second half of the month of July, 1992, in the area

10 of Glavaticevo. The gentleman I was talking to was

11 Nusret Sacibovic. Mr. Sacibovic was a member of the

12 war presidency. He was a member of the military

13 investigating commission and he was a member of the

14 ministry of the interior. When the war broke out, he

15 was an inspector.

16 Q. I'm sorry. Is it your testimony that

17 Mr. Sacibovic never mentioned that the committee had to

18 stop its work because of mistreatment?

19 A. No. During that conversation, which lasted

20 about ten minutes, he didn't mention that. He just

21 mentioned that there were some minor disagreements. He

22 didn't mention any major problems and he didn't mention

23 that the commission was to stop working or that the

24 commission had actually stopped working.

25 Q. Do you know why it was that the military

1 investigation committee released certain prisoners? In

2 particular, do you know whether or not it was because

3 it had been determined that they had not participated

4 in any military activities or possessed firearms?

5 A. In my testimony, I have said that during my

6 military training, I never dealt with military

7 investigating commissions, that I was not familiar with

8 the methods used by such investigating bodies, and

9 that's all that I have to say.

10 Q. Were you involved in approving the release of

11 any other prisoners besides the three you mentioned,

12 the two doctors and Mr. Golubovic?

13 A. No, never.

14 Q. When Mr. Tahirovic called you, how did you

15 know that these release forms existed? Had you ever

16 seen them? Let me clarify. At the time that

17 Mr. Tahirovic called you, had you ever seen any release

18 forms for prisoners?

19 A. No, I hadn't ever. I didn't say, when

20 talking to Mr. Tahirovic, that I knew of the existence

21 of these forms.

22 Q. Did you tell him that he should get the forms

23 and send them by courier to your location?

24 A. What I said to Mr. Tahirovic, "If there are

25 any papers, forms or any other documents, send them to

1 me by courier, so that I can sign them." I must point

2 out something that is very important and which was, for

3 me, decisive when taking such a decision.

4 First, the fact that I was told this by

5 Mr. Tahirovic, a member of the staff, a man whom I

6 trust because he was a member of the staff, and he

7 explained to me the specific situation in the town of

8 Konjic with regard to the increase of anti-Serb

9 feeling, when the policemen were killed in the village

10 of Bradina, because I gathered the atmosphere he was

11 living in and I took the decision.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will counsel please go

13 straight to the question because his answer has been

14 stated before during his examination-in-chief?

15 MS. McHENRY:

16 Q. Well, sir, I assume that by telling

17 Mr. Tahirovic about what to do, you recognised the fact

18 that you had authority over Celebici prison such that

19 you could release prisoners; is that correct?

20 A. That is not correct. Your statement is not

21 correct.

22 Q. Well, sir, certainly you would agree that you

23 had authority to release prisoners at this time,

24 wouldn't you?

25 A. I wouldn't agree with that either.

1 Q. Well, then, sir, why was it that you asked

2 Mr. Tahirovic to send you the forms; so that

3 Mr. Golubovic could be released?

4 A. I asked for them simply because there should

5 be some kind of a trace because I'm not familiar with

6 the actual procedure. There must be some documents on

7 the basis of which a person is released, so I was

8 thinking along those lines. There must be something,

9 some paper, so send them to me, so let's get it over

10 with, because this was his own personal friend and a

11 man belonging to the same generation. We grew up in

12 the same street, me and Mr. Miro Golubovic.

13 Q. But you asked him to send in the forms so

14 that you could release Mr. Golubovic; is that correct?

15 A. It was urgent. The situation was specific.

16 I was in a specific situation. I couldn't waste time.

17 Mr. Tahirovic needed to act preventively, in connection

18 with the anti-Serb forces. That is the point. Five

19 policemen were killed in the village of Bradina under

20 unclarified circumstances. The situation was tense in

21 the town itself.

22 Mr. Tahirovic wanted to prevent people taking

23 justice into their own hands, to prevent chaos. You

24 know what chaos means. That would be

25 counterproductive. It would have a negative affect on

1 our own fighters, so on and so forth, and on the

2 citizens of Konjic itself. I must also -- please don't

3 interrupt me. There were Serbs still living in

4 Konjic. Serbs were living there who had obligatory

5 labour, so it was a multi-ethnic town. With my father

6 in the basement was Mr. Nedzo Lojpur.

7 Q. You would agree with me, sir, that you could

8 have just asked Mr. Tahirovic to sign the forms on your

9 behalf?

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, listen, we've been

11 for over 15 minutes arguing on matters which are a

12 rationalisation from conduct of the parties. You don't

13 go about asking questions which will not get you

14 anywhere. You ask did you sign the forms, the

15 particular prisoner was released. You don't have to

16 ask further questions.

17 MS. McHENRY:

18 Q. Sir, the second time you were involved in

19 releases, you stated that Dr. Ahmo Jusufbegovic

20 contacted you, when you were in the front-line?

21 A. I'm hearing the French interpretation.

22 JUDGE JAN: You must have pressed the wrong

23 button.

24 MS. McHENRY:

25 Q. Sir, the second time you were involved in

1 prison releases, you stated that Dr. Ahmo Jusufbegovic

2 contacted you. What did Dr. Jusufbegovic tell you

3 about why the doctors should be released?

4 A. Dr. Ahmo Jusufbegovic did not explain to me

5 why the doctors should be released. That was the first

6 time I heard that Mr. Petko Grubac and Mr. -- I think

7 his surname is -- I can't remember it now, maybe I will

8 later. Dr. Ahmo is a man of repute and he told me that

9 he had heard, and this for him was news too, that they

10 had been detained in Celebici and as a man of prestige,

11 he had tried to intervene, to contact certain

12 structures. He went to the HVO, but he was unable to

13 do anything. This was maybe five or six days after the

14 case of Miro Golubovic. I'm not sure. I was in

15 Glavaticevo at the time.

16 He said that Mr. Zejnil Delalic himself was

17 with him and that he too was appealing for a solution,

18 for a compromise, that these people should be released

19 and that they were ready to continue their professional

20 activities, to continue treating patients.

21 Q. Now, sir, are you aware that in the latter

22 part of November, Mr. Delic took over for Mr. Mucic?

23 A. Could you repeat the question? Which

24 duties? I didn't quite understand.

25 JUDGE JAN: She is now speaking of Delic, not

1 Delalic.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,

3 please.

4 JUDGE JAN: She is now speaking of Delic, not

5 Delalic. She is asking you; are you aware that Delic

6 took over from Mucic as commander of the camp. This is

7 what she's asking you.

8 MS. McHENRY:

9 Q. That is correct, sir.

10 A. In what month? In what period?

11 Q. Let me just ask you, sir, at any period, are

12 you aware that Mr. Delic took over Mr. Mucic's

13 functions as camp commander or camp director?

14 A. No, I'm not aware of it.

15 Q. Sir, was there a time when you had

16 responsibility for any prison camps in Konjic?

17 A. No, never.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will break

19 here and assemble at 12.

20 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.07 p.m.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly find the witness,

23 please.

24 (The witness entered court)

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Proceed, Ms. McHenry.

1 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Q. Sir, I am correct that in November of 1992,

3 you became commander of the brigade called the Suad

4 Alic Brigade?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And is it your testimony that no part of the

7 Suad Alic Brigade, or police units that were part of

8 that brigade, were ever responsible for any prison camp

9 in Konjic?

10 A. That is not how I put it, the way you stated

11 it.

12 Q. Well, how would you put it, sir, was there a

13 time when some part of the Suad Alic Brigade had some

14 responsibility for the operation of any prison camp in

15 Konjic?

16 A. Let me make a distinction for you between the

17 responsibility and competence. Musala was in

18 competence of the 4th core, the sector of military

19 security and myself as a commander, only was tasked

20 with providing security. Whereas, as a commander of

21 the 7th Brigade, I never established the camp.

22 Q. But am I correct that persons under your

23 command were guards at the camp, is that correct?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. Sir, you're aware, aren't you, that in

1 December, and January of 1993, Mr. Delic, Mr. Landzo,

2 Bata Alikadic, Osman Dedic and Sead Surcin were in

3 prison in Celebici?

4 MR. MORAN: Objection, Your Honour, to the

5 relevance of this.

6 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I am not going to

7 get into why they were in prison or anything about

8 that. It's just a foundation because this witness may

9 have had some involvement with the accused related to

10 that. But I will not discuss at all the merits or why

11 they were in prison and I believe it's already in the

12 record that at some point they were imprisoned.

13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, there was a single

14 document, as I recall, that was introduced, as I

15 recall, and that was just to show people's names and

16 ranks and titles and things like that. Whatever

17 occurred involving my client or others after the time

18 of this indictment, I believe is irrelevant and I

19 believe it's surely irrelevant as to this man.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the purpose of

21 the question?

22 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, my next

23 question was to ask whether or not this witness had any

24 direct role in getting the accused released and that's

25 why.

1 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, what fact of

2 importance to this case does that make more or less

3 likely? It's totally irrelevant.

4 MS. McHENRY: I can explain more, I don't

5 want --

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's not necessary

7 because I don't think it's a relevant issue.

8 MS. McHENRY: Sir --

9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Sir, I have a point

10 regarding the transcript. At page 43 of LiveNote, line

11 17, it says Mr. Delalic, and I understood my learned

12 friend to say Mr. Delic, I believe there's an error

13 there. Could that be confirmed, please.

14 MS. McHENRY: Certainly. I'm sorry, I don't

15 have the LiveNote page, but my last question, certainly

16 had to do with Mr. Delic, not Mr. Delalic. Sir, let

17 me just ask you this --

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for

19 the correction.

20 MS. McHENRY:

21 Q. Sir, let me just ask you this correctly.

22 Were you part of an armed group which illegally

23 released Mr. Delic, Mr. Landzo and some others?

24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, same objection.

25 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe this

1 directly goes to this witness' bias, if, in fact, the

2 information is true.

3 JUDGE JAN: First of all asking if --

4 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I had asked that

5 question and that was objected and I was asked to go on

6 to a more specific question, so I will go back, sir.

7 Q. Sir, you were aware that in January of 1993,

8 Mr. Delic, Mr. Landzo, Mr. Ali Catic, Mr. Dedic and

9 another person were imprisoned in Celebici, weren't

10 you?

11 MR. MORAN: Same objection, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You want to show some

13 special relationship between the witness and some of

14 the accused persons, this is what you want?

15 MS. McHENRY: That is correct, Your Honour.

16 And this is a foundation question for my next question.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you can ask the

18 question.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone counsel.

20 MS. BOLER: (Reporter wrote MR. OLUJIC:) I am

21 going to object at this point also, on behalf of Mr.

22 Landzo, just as well as my learned counsel had done.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the question can

24 be answered.

25 MS. McHENRY: Sir, can you answer the

1 question?

2 THE WITNESS: I was never a member of what

3 you described as an armed group.

4 MS. McHENRY: You were a member of a group,

5 sir, that had Mr. Delic and Mr. Landzo and the other

6 people released in January of 1993?

7 A. In January of 1993, I was commander of a

8 brigade, I was not a member of a group.

9 Q. Well, sir, as a member of the brigade, did

10 you participate in a group that forcibly had Mr.

11 Landzo, Mr. Delic and some other people released from

12 Celebici?

13 JUDGE JAN: When you are talking about a

14 group, he was a brigade commander. I don't know what

15 you mean by the group. You say that the brigade

16 commander, ask him as a brigade commander so he can --

17 MS. McHENRY:

18 Q. Sir, in any function whatsoever, in January

19 1993, did you play a role of having Mr. Landzo and Mr.

20 Delic released from imprisonment?

21 A. No, never.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. BOLER: Excuse me, I don't know if this

24 is the proper time, but I have noticed that also

25 there's an error like Mr. O'Sullivan has pointed out in

1 46 line 9, when I made an objection on behalf of Mr.

2 Landzo, Mr. Landzo's name was not mentioned and also

3 instead of my name, Nancy Boler, as the person who made

4 the objection, they've written Mr. Olujic's they have

5 written Mr. Olujic's name. That was 46.

6 JUDGE JAN: Yes, we can see it. Mr. Olujic

7 was entirely innocent.

8 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, they still have on

10 47.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it will be

12 corrected.

13 MS. McHENRY: Sir, was Mr. Esad Landzo ever

14 part of the Suad Alic Brigade or police units that were

15 part of the brigade?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the witness,

17 please.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Correct the witness'

19 microphone now.

20 THE WITNESS: There's a sector in the

21 brigade, which is called an organisation mobilisation

22 affairs centre and they have lists of men. As the

23 commander of the brigade, I was not in a position to

24 memorise 1400 names that were there.

25 Q. Sir, do I take it that you have no knowledge

1 about whether or not Mr. Esad Landzo was ever a part of

2 the Suad Alic Brigade?

3 A. Not only do I do not know whether there was

4 Esad Landzo there, but there may have been a number of

5 persons named Esad Landzo.

6 Q. Sir, are you aware of more than one person in

7 Konjic being named Esad Landzo?

8 A. I believe you misunderstood me when I said,

9 when I said other Esad Landzo's, I meant other names

10 and other people and there are several Landzos. I know

11 exactly where the family came from and I know them.

12 It's a large family, there's quite a few of them.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would the witness say

14 that he can't vouch for whether the accused person or

15 any other persons of that name, only persons for that

16 matter, he's a member of his brigade.

17 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why don't you go on to

19 some other question.

20 MS. McHENRY: Certainly, Your Honour, given

21 that he, as I understood, he misspoke in his answer, I

22 think I was allowed to clarify that, but I am certainly

23 going to move on.

24 Q. Sir, since you left Konjic, you have been in

25 contact with Mr. Delalic on different occasions,

1 haven't you?

2 A. Yes, that was the nature of work and the

3 nature of his duties and my needs. And it had to do

4 with the work that I have with Mr. Kevric.

5 Q. Sir, maybe my question wasn't clear, or let

6 me just -- in case it's not. Sir, after he left Bosnia

7 in the end of 1992, since he's been outside of Bosnia,

8 you have continued to be in contact with Mr. Delalic on

9 different occasions, haven't you?

10 A. To maintain contact, linguistically speaking,

11 means to exchange information and I was in no position

12 to do that. In fact, what I did with the citizen,

13 Zejnil Delalic, and I believe this was maybe '94 or

14 '95, I just sent a few letters by certain persons,

15 different persons who were travelling to Austria and

16 Germany and in terms of exchanging information into

17 letters and telephone conversations that we were not

18 able to have.

19 Q. Well, sir, you would agree with me that in

20 discussing your needs, in your letter, in one of your

21 letters to Mr. Delalic, you suggested that he could

22 provide you with some money, is that correct?

23 A. Let me correct you again on this point. We

24 did not talk. I may have written something to him and

25 I am not even sure whether any of these letters have

1 reached him because I never had any contact with him.

2 Contact was impossible, technically speaking it was.

3 That is through -- by telephone.

4 Q. Sir, do you remember in your letter to Mr.

5 Delalic, did you suggest that he should give you some

6 money?

7 A. I believe that I may have written the first

8 letter after I was seriously wounded. This was -- I

9 was in a special kind of a mental and physical state at

10 the time. If I were to be shown this letter, I may be

11 able to confirm it for you.

12 Q. May I have the usher's assistance.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution document 241.

14 MS. McHENRY:

15 Q. Sir, let me just direct your attention to the

16 very end of the letter, the third to last paragraph.

17 Sir, does this letter refresh your recollection as to

18 whether or not you suggested that Mr. Delalic should

19 provide you with some money?

20 A. Let me read you exactly what I had written.

21 Here it says, let him send me those pills for

22 headache. In other words, medication. And this is in

23 the next sentence, when I say, and if he were to send

24 some money, I would not be "angry." And it is just a

25 local Bosnian way of putting things.

1 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Your Honours, I

2 would request that his prior statement, that he gave to

3 the Defence, that was previously marked be admitted

4 for, solely for purposes of impeachment.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection, Your Honour.

6 There's nothing impeachable here.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You want this also? You

8 want this also in the last portion, which you rely upon

9 if that is --

10 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, just for purposes

11 of completeness, we would, although I had not yet done

12 it, we would also ask what this letter be admitted into

13 evidence also. So I would be asking that this letter

14 be admitted and that his prior statement to the

15 Defence, which was previously shown to him, for

16 purposes of impeachment, but had not technically been

17 offered into evidence, I would be seeking to have both

18 of those admitted into evidence.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour --

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the purpose of

21 this? What are you impeaching?

22 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, with respect to

23 this last letter, since he's admitted exactly what he's

24 said, the prosecution thought you might want it for

25 purposes of completeness, but if you don't feel it's

1 necessary, we won't be pressing the matter. We would,

2 however, be seeking, so if Your Honours don't believe

3 it's helpful to have this letter, we won't be seeking

4 its admission. We would be seeking the admission of

5 his prior statement to the Defence, which we show him

6 in examination. It's marked 239. The previous

7 statement in that, we would be certainly seeking for

8 admission because it did impeach this witness.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: We raise an objection and we

10 believe that it is not a basis for impeachment. And as

11 far as the second document, we believe that there's no

12 basis for admission of the second document, thank you.

13 MS. BOLER: Our objection is similar and that

14 this letter -- this statement has not been properly

15 authenticated until we object to its admission on that

16 ground. In addition, the witness has denied making

17 that statement.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it's a fair

19 request, there's nothing to impeach him. It couldn't

20 be admitted for any purpose really.

21 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I accept your

22 ruling on this letter. We would be seeking, though,

23 separately to have his prior statement, Exhibit 239,

24 which I believe the witness did agree, contradicted his

25 testimony.

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay.

2 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honour, I have

3 no further questions.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, any

5 re-examination? The last circled exhibit is not being

6 admitted. There's no basis for it really.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: I hope, Your Honour, that the

8 statement has not been admitted either because we

9 objected at the time and there was no contradiction as

10 we saw during the examination.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: 241, that is not being

12 admitted, but 239 is. Is there any re-examination?

13 Because counsel has gone through the

14 cross-examination.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very briefly, Your Honours

16 Re-examination by Ms. Residovic:

17 Q. Mr. Cerovac, the Prosecutor read to you and

18 showed you a statement, which was used in the course of

19 the criminal proceedings against you. Can you tell the

20 court whether the proceedings have ended and how?

21 A. Yes, the proceedings have been terminated and

22 I was acquitted of the charges.

23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Cerovac, you have also been

24 asked how you knew that people were carrying arms.

25 Tell me, please, whether you and the staff had seized

1 weapons in the homes of the people captured, military

2 weapons?

3 A. In answer to the first part of your question,

4 by nature of my job and my training, I knew all the

5 types of weapons used by the former JNA.

6 Q. I'm sorry, maybe you didn't understand my

7 question. I didn't ask you how you knew about the

8 weapons, my question is, were weapons found and

9 surrendered to the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 Were weapons found and seized and handed over to the

11 forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12 A. On the people captured, yes. It was an

13 enormous quantity of weapons, there were about 700

14 barrels of automatic and semi-automatic rifles. And

15 there were some 82 millimetre mortars and some

16 communications equipment. Thank you.

17 Q. You were also asked in connection with the

18 Split Brigade, so could you please, if you can recall,

19 tell the Court whether you know when that brigade

20 arrived and when it left Konjic? You spoke about its

21 composition during your examination in chief?

22 A. The mountain brigade arrived in the second

23 half of April and left in the first half of May to the

24 area of Hercnica (phoen).

25 Q. Mr. Cerovac, during the cross-examination,

1 with regard to the subordination of parts of the combat

2 units of Konjic to Tactical Group 1, my learned friend

3 used several different English terms, so in order to

4 clarify this, these terms may have different meanings,

5 so my question is, could you tell the Court, when the

6 Gijret unit or another unit was transferred to be

7 subordinated to Tactical Group 1 or 2; for how long was

8 it under the command of the commanders of Tactical

9 Groups 1 and 2?

10 A. A unit, which is in principal being

11 subordinated to a Tactical Group, is subordinated for

12 the duration of a certain temporary assignment. When

13 the command of the Tactical Groups finds that that unit

14 is necessary or unnecessary for the continuation of the

15 task, when it is found to be unnecessary, the unit is

16 returned to the municipal staff within the original

17 structure, but the municipal staff never eliminates it

18 from its structure.

19 Q. When that unit returns, as, for instance, the

20 Gijret unit from its combat assignment, who is it

21 subordinated to, upon its return to Konjic? Which is

22 its superior command?

23 A. The municipal staff of the Territorial

24 Defence.

25 Q. Mr. Cerovac, was there ever a unit, a part of

1 a unit or a unit, an individual, a soldier from Konjic

2 who was permanently subordinated to the commander of

3 Tactical Group 1, regardless of whether at the time it

4 was Mr. Polutak or Mr. Delalic?

5 A. No, never.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I

7 have no further questions.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I

9 think that this is all we have for Mr. Cerovac. Thank

10 you very much for your assistance and for your

11 resilience. We are grateful for your assistance to the

12 Trial Chamber. Thank you very much. You are

13 discharged.

14 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, may I be allowed

15 to say a couple of words and to address you

16 personally?

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the witness was

19 hurt by some questions put by Ms. McHenry, but I don't

20 think it's necessary for us to go into that again. He

21 has already reacted to the question, so I would suggest

22 that he would not -- he not address the court. But if

23 you grant him permission, he may say it again. He

24 understood questions to mean that he was being charged

25 by this court.

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, I think there is

2 nothing after the questions have been asked and

3 answered. I think that is all. It is only meant for

4 the proceedings here. It's not a personal matter.

5 You're merely a witness in these proceedings and

6 nothing more, so have no fears at all. Thank you very

7 much.

8 THE WITNESS: My integrity has been affected.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, it hasn't been. The

10 proceedings are very clear. The re-examination was

11 very clear. You were acquitted on this charge and that

12 is the end of this matter and you remain a gentleman

13 and a soldier. Thank you very much for your

14 assistance. Thank you. You are discharged now.

15 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

16 (The witness withdrew)

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I have a

18 request to make. Our next witness is ready, but as I

19 have already told you, Dr. Hadzihuseinovic is an

20 important witness. I didn't know how long the

21 cross-examination of this witness would take. I have

22 quite a large number of documents, so I would ask that

23 I can begin with the examination after the break so

24 that it could be done efficiently. If I may, I would

25 be grateful, if not, I shall start, but I think it

1 would be more expeditious if I were allowed to start

2 the examination after the break.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You mean asking him

4 questions on what you indicated was your line of

5 examination? Is that complicated? Asking questions

6 about the municipal authority and the question about

7 the coordinator and the like, do you think that that's

8 complicated that you cannot start. You can start and

9 then we will have the break and then you can continue.

10 JUDGE JAN: You can start with the

11 preliminaries, asking him his name, what his position

12 was.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think you have

14 too many problems.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: I can start. The witness is

16 waiting.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In 20 minutes, you will

18 have the break and you can arrange the rest. Please

19 kindly invite the witness.

20 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, may I raise a

21 matter in relation to this witness,

22 Dr. Hadzihuseinovic. It was my intention to

23 cross-examine this witness at the conclusion of his

24 examination-in-chief. Unfortunately, I have a

25 commitment, in another matter, in another chamber, and

1 will involve me in that chamber tomorrow morning and on

2 Friday morning.

3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I'm not sure Ms. Residovic

4 cannot hear what my friend is saying because she must

5 hear it through interpretation.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may continue.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Could you please repeat what

8 you said because I now have the headphones and I can

9 follow.

10 MR. NIEMANN: I'm sorry. I didn't realise

11 that Ms. Residovic didn't have her headphones on. I'm

12 just making an application for Your Honours indulgence

13 in relation to this witness who it was my intention to

14 cross-examine. I am committed to another matter

15 tomorrow morning and Friday morning which, if this

16 witness goes longer than today, would impact upon my

17 ability to cross-examine him, which was what my

18 intention was. Unfortunately, in the other matter, I

19 need to be in that chamber at least tomorrow and the

20 next day. I don't need to be there this afternoon,

21 even though it's sitting, but I will need to be there

22 on Thursday and Friday, in the mornings certainly. If

23 this witness, Dr. Hadzihuseinovic has not completed his

24 evidence by the end of today, then I'll be in

25 difficulties in terms of cross-examining him if it was

1 to continue tomorrow morning and my application, Your

2 Honours, is to ask your indulgence to permit another

3 witness to be deposed in the morning so that the

4 cross-examination could take place in the afternoon,

5 tomorrow afternoon, assuming his evidence in chief is

6 completed today. If it's not, then evidence in chief

7 continuing tomorrow afternoon and then Friday

8 afternoon. I can indicate to Your Honours that based

9 on what I know or anticipate his testimony to be, I

10 would hope to complete my cross-examination certainly

11 in an afternoon and hopefully in the space of a couple

12 of hours. I would endeavour to do all I could to

13 tailor any cross-examination to come within that time.

14 I regret, Your Honours, that I have to do this but

15 unfortunately, the scheduling of the cases is such that

16 it has created this difficulty for me.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is very difficult for

18 the Trial Chamber to reschedule any cases at all. He

19 has been fixed to be deposed. The witness is here. I

20 suppose -- so I don't know when it's necessary for you

21 to cross-examine, read the transcripts and then do

22 that, but definitely we have no intention of

23 rescheduling any witness's testimony because it's more

24 critical for us to continue as we have scheduled than

25 any other Trial Chamber.

1 MR. NIEMANN: Well, Your Honours, that's my

2 application, and if Your Honours are going to decline

3 it, then fine.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We certainly would not

5 accept it. We reject the application.

6 Call your witness.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I

8 call Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic.

9 (The witness entered court)

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we swear the

11 witness, please?

12 THE WITNESS: In the name of God, the

13 merciful, I solemnly declare that I will speak the

14 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may sit down.

16 Take your seat.

17 RUSMIR SAFET HADZIHUSEINOVIC

18 Examined by Ms. Residovic

19 Q. Good day, sir. Will you please introduce

20 yourself to the court and tell us your full name?

21 A. My name is Rusmir Safet Hadzihuseinovic.

22 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, before I proceed with

23 questions, I should like to warn you, like I have done

24 with all our witnesses, of a technical matter, namely,

25 both of us speak the same language, and it would be

1 easy for us to -- for me to ask the questions and for

2 you to answer them immediately. But as every word we

3 say has to be interpreted and has to go down in the

4 transcript and be understood by everyone in this

5 courtroom, the Trial Chamber in the first place, I

6 would like to ask you to listen to the interpretation

7 on the set of headphones on the table. You will hear

8 the end of the interpretation. You can turn on the

9 volume and when you no longer hear the interpretation,

10 only then answer my question, please. In that way,

11 everyone in the courtroom will be able to follow. Have

12 you understood these instructions, Dr. Hadzihuseinovic?

13 A. Yes. I understand fully.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Dr. Hadzihuseinovic,

15 will you tell me, please, when and where you were born,

16 what is your ethnic origin and your citizenship?

17 A. I was born on the 23rd of May, 1947 in

18 Konjic. My citizenship is Bosniak.

19 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, what schools have you

20 graduated from and what is your profession and what is

21 your speciality?

22 A. I graduated from secondary school in Konjic,

23 the school of medicine in Belgrade and I specialised in

24 urology in Niche and Belgrade, so my speciality is

25 urology.

1 Q. Have you served in the former JNA, Doctor?

2 A. No, I have not.

3 Q. Where have you worked as a doctor?

4 A. My first employment was in Konjic and after

5 that I also worked in Serbia for about seven years and

6 I spent some time working abroad too. From 1986, I

7 have been working permanently in Konjic.

8 Q. Dr. Hadzihuseinovic, did you become

9 politically active in the period before the war?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. As a political activist, did you participate

12 as a candidate at any elections, and if so which?

13 A. Yes, as a candidate of the party of

14 democratic action, SDA, at the first multi-party and

15 democratic elections held in 1990.

16 Q. What was your political function in the SDA

17 at the time?

18 A. At that time, I held the position of

19 president of the SDA for Konjic municipality.

20 Q. Will you please tell the court, very briefly,

21 who won at the elections and how the authorities were

22 structured after those elections and how the government

23 was established?

24 A. Yes, I shall be very brief. The SDA party

25 won and in the newly established municipal assembly of

1 Konjic, which consisted of 60 deputies, the SDA had 28

2 seats, the HDZ 14, the Serb democratic party, the

3 SDS 9, and all the other parties 9.

4 Q. Thank you. What position were you assigned

5 to after the elections?

6 A. After the elections, by decision of the

7 municipal assembly of Konjic, that is all the deputies

8 in the assembly, I was democratically elected president

9 of the municipal assembly of Konjic.

10 Q. In view of the fact that at the time you

11 discharged the functions you have described, will you

12 tell us, did Zejnil Delalic participate in those

13 Parliamentary elections?

14 A. Not as far as I know because he was abroad at

15 the time.

16 Q. After those elections in 1990, was Zejnil

17 Delalic elected to any state bodies in Konjic?

18 A. Absolutely not.

19 Q. Later on in 1992, was Zejnil Delalic

20 nominated or elected as a member of any state organ in

21 Konjic?

22 A. Absolutely not.

23 Q. As president of the SDA party for Konjic

24 municipality, do you know whether Zejnil Delalic was a

25 member of the SDA of Konjic or the SDA of

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the party of democratic action of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

3 A. No, because the SDA party of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have its branches abroad.

5 That was not legally possible.

6 Q. Do you know whether Zejnil Delalic, in 1992,

7 was a member of any other political party?

8 A. As far as I know, he was not a member of any

9 political party.

10 Q. Did Zejnil Delalic perform any political

11 function in 1992, in Konjic?

12 A. No, absolutely not.

13 Q. Did Zejnil Delalic, during the first

14 multi-party elections, assist those elections and

15 assist the elected authorities in one way or another?

16 A. Yes. Mr. Delalic supported, financially, the

17 new democratic forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina, only

18 financially.

19 Q. Did he make a gift to the municipal assembly

20 of Konjic?

21 A. Yes, as far as I can recall, a jeep was

22 bought for the needs of the municipal assembly of

23 Konjic. I think also a typewriter.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, in view of

25 these answers by the witness, I should like to show the

1 witness a number of documents contained in the

2 supporting material of the expert witness, so could I

3 please have five minutes to get those documents, as I

4 have not prepared them yet, or may I do that after the

5 break?

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

7 now rise and assemble at 2.30.

8 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.55 p.m.

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25

1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

2 (The witness entered court)

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may continue, Ms.

4 Residovic.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind the witness he's

7 under oath.

8 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

9 are still under oath.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC:

11 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, good afternoon, I hope

12 you were able to take some rest. I would now like to

13 the registrar to help me show the Prosecutors Exhibit

14 No. 99/7 -- 2. I have copies, so that we can

15 facilitate a communication here. Here are the copies,

16 which can be provided for both the Trial Chamber and

17 the Prosecution. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, would you please

18 review these documents. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, have you

19 ever seen this document before?

20 A. No. I have never seen this document before.

21 I see it for the first time now.

22 Q. As the president of SDA in Konjic in 1992,

23 can you tell me whether this document represents, a

24 copy of a membership card, of an SDA member?

25 A. This document does not represent a membership

1 card of a SDA member -- a Bosnia SDA member.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, can the

3 document please be returned to the registrar. With the

4 usher's assistance, I would now like to show the

5 witness a document from D-136. This will be from the

6 supporting material of the expert witness report and

7 this would be in D-35. I have sufficient copies for

8 both the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution. Again,

9 just to facilitate the matters. Sir, I believe that

10 you can see that this document was produced in Vienna,

11 so I am not going to ask you to testify to its

12 authenticity, but I would like you to read the body of

13 text, of the certificate. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, do you

14 know that in Vienna there was an association of the

15 Muslim/Bosnian culture circle which was active at that

16 time?

17 A. Yes, I have heard of its activity.

18 Q. Thank you, this document can also be returned

19 now. Now I would like to request that the witness be

20 shown --

21 JUDGE JAN: Even if it is held that he is a

22 member of SDA, how it connects him with the Celebici

23 camp? Let's confine ourselves to the role played by Mr.

24 Zenu (phoen) in the war presidency, if there was any,

25 his associations with the Celebici camp, if any. We're

1 concerned with the Celebici camp, we're not concerned

2 with his other activities at all. The membership of

3 the SDA will not necessarily mean that he has

4 involvement in the setting up of the Celebici camp.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Whether his membership

6 creates an offence, I don't know. Whether that he's a

7 member of that organisation makes any difference.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, you should ask

9 this question of the Prosecution because they offered

10 it into evidence. They said that they found it in the

11 Vienna documents and that they had asked someone and

12 that it proves the position of superiority. All I want

13 to find out from this witness is whether this was a

14 fact or not. So this is the evidence that were already

15 produced before.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, definitely it

17 leads to nowhere.

18 JUDGE JAN: You asked him about his role in

19 the war presidency, if there was any. His connections

20 in the Celebici camp, if there was any. These are the

21 questions relevant for us. Membership of SDA is really

22 irrelevant in this regard. I may be a member of SDA,

23 but still I have nothing to do with Celebici. I may

24 not be a member of the SDA, I may still have a role to

25 play in that. So let's confine ourselves to this.

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I am very glad

2 that this is your thinking, but since the Prosecution

3 has produced the documents that I am referring to now,

4 will you please allow me to ask that through this

5 witness, about these documents. But this is the part

6 of the backbone of this allegation, of the

7 Prosecution's allegation that this authenticates his

8 responsibility, his superiority. And now I would like

9 to ask for another document. It is in D-34 and it is

10 Exhibit No. 136. And again, I have enough copies for

11 the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC:

13 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, I am not going to ask

14 you to authenticate this document, however, if you had

15 read its contents, since you've already answered part

16 of my questions, regarding the contents, can you just

17 tell the Court whether the contents of these documents

18 is truthful, with regard to your personal knowledge of

19 it.

20 A. Yes, that is correct, the contents of these

21 documents are fully truthful in full measure of its

22 contents.

23 Q. Since this witness has confirmed the

24 authenticity of this document with respect to the

25 events that it covers in 1992 and on the basis of its

1 relevance, I tender it into evidence.

2 MR. NIEMANN: We object, Your Honour.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to Judge.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: To say that he has read

5 a letter saying certain things. That's what he's just

6 done.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, before the

8 break, I have asked all these questions of the witness,

9 whether he was a member of the SDA, whether the jeep

10 was purchased with it. And now he has reviewed the

11 letter and he has confirmed it. He says that they

12 pertain to the events from 1992.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's not his letter, he

14 didn't write it, is it? He didn't write this letter?

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: He is confirming its

16 truthfulness and I believe that this is relevant and so

17 on the basis of its relevance, I am tendering it.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How does it relate? His

19 evidence is sufficient to what he must have said about

20 Delalic and his membership. For him now to say that

21 this is own evidence, a letter which you are now trying

22 to tender through him, it's a letter -- he couldn't do

23 that.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I hope that you

25 will apply the same standard for some other additional

1 evidence that may be turned in because --

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I have told you, he's

3 not the right person to tender this letter. And don't

4 say I am applying a different standard. If you do not

5 understand the procedure, you say so. I have not said

6 anything different than that he cannot tender this

7 letter. He's not the author. And there's no way he

8 could authenticate it. And then you say, one is

9 applying a different standard. That's all you've been

10 referring in all you've been saying and I don't like

11 it. I never apply different standards. I have no

12 personal interest in any of these things. It's only

13 professional responsibility, I am just charging you.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Based on my professional

15 ethics, I have full respect for the Trial Chamber, but

16 I would also request that my professionalism is not

17 brought up in open court here. I am just going to go

18 on with my question.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber, when

20 we express an opinion about you tendering any

21 particular document, if it's not this particular

22 witness who should tender it, I'll say so. If it's

23 right for him to do so, obviously it will be admitted

24 but definitely this is not his letter. It was not

25 written by him and he agrees with the contents, it does

1 not make it his own document, so he cannot tender it.

2 In any event, I don't see the need for it, for entering

3 it.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, it is my place

5 to offer documents into evidence and it is for you to

6 accept them or not. For instance, the SDA membership

7 card was admitted and I believe that I was following

8 the procedures, which has been established in the

9 practice of this Trial Chamber. If I have made a

10 mistake, I can go correct myself, but I was hoping that

11 I have been doing it, the right thing.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Admitted, who is

13 tendering it?

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, could

15 you please tell me whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic, at the

16 time when you were president of the war presidency, was

17 a member of any state of body or did he have any

18 political function in the Konjic municipality?

19 A. I believe that I will be repeating an answer

20 which I have given previously. Mr. Delalic was not a

21 member of any state body or any political body in the

22 Konjic municipality, during my tenure, while I was the

23 leader there.

24 JUDGE JAN: Just one thing, just for

25 clarification, we're just concerned with 1992, he was

1 not a member of any party, he was not a member of your

2 particular party in 1992, just to bring in the year?

3 THE WITNESS: That is correct.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC:

5 Q. May I request that the witness be shown

6 document D-136, D-31. And again, I have provided a

7 sufficient number of copies for everyone. Were you

8 able to read through the document?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Again, I am not going to seek here, the

11 authentication of this document, because other persons

12 have authenticated it at the defence request in '96.

13 But I want to tell you whether this document reflects

14 the position of Mr. Zejnil Delalic with respect to his

15 functions in 1992?

16 A. Yes, absolutely this document reflects that.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now don't you think it's

18 better if you ask him, whether this witness was a

19 member of the body at that time, and whether he knew

20 Delalic was a member or so, of the body. If he says

21 so, I think his evidence will be as strong as you can

22 get. You have put him forward as the president of the

23 municipal council and he's -- for the period and why

24 should he be able to give evidence of that period?

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honour, I

1 introduced this witness as the president and I also

2 offered you a document which speaks of Zejnil. He

3 could confirm this because he was the SDA president in

4 Konjic. He was also the president of the municipal

5 assembly and president of war presidency. So, he

6 personally knows this fact. This is why have been

7 offering both this document and the previous document

8 because it confirms the truthfulness. I did not ask

9 him this in 1992. I received a document in 1996 from

10 different bodies, but this person knows about the

11 truthfulness of these facts as of 1992.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What happened.

13 JUDGE JAN: Suspicion.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- As you can get. He

15 was president of the body and he can give evidence of

16 what happened.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours, but the

18 Prosecution cast out, as to the truthfulness of this

19 document, that appeared in the expert witness report.

20 So, what I am trying to do here is to talk about, is

21 truthfulness, because the truthfulness of it has been

22 brought into doubt by the Prosecution and this is why I

23 am trying to have this --

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He's here, I don't see

25 all this argument. The witness is present, in person,

1 to finish whatever cross-examination arising out of it.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: So, am I understanding you

3 correctly, that you are not admitting this document

4 offered by the Defence?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the Judge

6 Karibi-Whyte please.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I would like to

8 ask you something. I would not like to go on

9 discussing this document. I was provided a videotape

10 of the shelling of Konjic by this witness and a copy of

11 it has been made available for the Prosecution. If you

12 believe that this is an indisputable fact and if the

13 Prosecution is also not disputing it, I have no need to

14 show this videotape. It is also going to talk about

15 the circumstances under which the coordinator was

16 appointed, but if this --

17 JUDGE JAN: Are you disputing that Konjic was

18 shelled frequently during 1992.

19 MR. COWLES: We don't know how frequently it

20 was shelled, but we don't dispute that it was.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This has been said

22 several times, these are not issues in dispute.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC:

24 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, in the light of this

25 discussion, I am just going to ask you without showing

1 the videotape, I am going to ask you as mayor of this

2 town, when did the shelling of Konjic begin?

3 A. Konjic started being shelled in the month of

4 May.

5 Q. How often was Konjic shelled in this year?

6 A. The first shelling started on 4 May, 1992 and

7 continued tenaciously on a daily basis. It happened

8 that this town, which was very small, up to 500 shells

9 would fall. It was -- those were horror days.

10 Q. Thank you. On 6 April, you were appointed

11 the president of the municipal assembly, of this town.

12 Can you tell me now, apart from the JNA, which at that

13 time was in the barracks, was there any other structure

14 that was -- organisation that was supposed to defend

15 the country and town?

16 A. Apart from the members of the Yugoslav

17 People's Army, who were in military facility, the only

18 structures that existed within the system of the legal

19 and legitimate defence of the town were members of the

20 ministry of the interior. That is the police and

21 members of the Territorial Defence. Thank you.

22 Q. Even though Bosnia and Herzegovina became an

23 independent state, do you know whether the JNA tried,

24 forcibly, to mobilise people?

25 A. Yes. I am aware of that, namely, let me

1 inform Your Honours with a date which is very

2 significant and which impacts my answer to this

3 question. Actually, the general staff of the armed

4 forces of the former Yugoslavia, by its order from

5 1990, required that all the arms of the Territorial

6 Defence should be placed in the warehouses of the

7 Yugoslav People's Army.

8 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, this is a fact that the

9 court has been informed about several times. Will you

10 please tell us what is important in connection with

11 this fact?

12 A. What is important is that the Yugoslav

13 People's Army tried to carry out mobilisation itself,

14 illegally, by trying to illegally seize the documents

15 on mobilisation held in the national defence

16 secretariat of Konjic municipality.

17 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, as a legal authority in

18 Konjic, when the war began on April the 6th, did you

19 follow developments in Bosnia-Herzegovina and did you

20 react to those developments? If you did, tell us how.

21 A. Indeed, I did. As representatives of the

22 legal authorities and the bodies we presided over, we

23 undertook all the necessary steps which would serve the

24 interests of the defence of the city.

25 Let me give you a number of examples. It was

1 our duty to secure the most important facilities in the

2 town itself such as the central electricity power

3 station, the water supply system, to ensure supervision

4 over economic facilities and supervision over all other

5 crucial facilities according to instructions of the

6 state authorities.

7 Q. Tell me, did all the parties that

8 participated and won at the elections, adopt the same

9 attitude towards the legitimacy of the state of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11 A. No, they did not. That is not correct. The

12 Serb Democratic Party of the municipality of Konjic,

13 was carrying out instructions from the Serb

14 Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina and,

15 accordingly, it boycotted the referendum, on the

16 independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and after that, it

17 took a series of steps and measures which, from the

18 standpoint of the legal authorities, constituted a

19 rebellion and non-respect for the authority of the

20 state they belonged to.

21 Q. Thank you. As the president of the assembly,

22 did you convene the assembly for it to take decisions

23 in accordance with measures taken by the state?

24 A. Yes, that is correct. Pursuant to decisions

25 of the competent state bodies, passed in the first half

1 of the month of April, because Bosnia-Herzegovina was

2 an internationally recognised state, I convened the

3 municipal assembly of Konjic, on the 17th of April, at

4 which the appropriate conclusions and decisions were

5 adopted.

6 Q. Because of this position that you took

7 regarding the defence of the city, were there threats

8 that the town would be destroyed?

9 A. Yes. General Kukanjac, who was the commander

10 of the second military district in Sarajevo, personally

11 by telephone, threatened me, saying that Konjic would

12 be raised to the ground and he did so on several

13 occasions. And we were just doing our job as the

14 civilian authorities.

15 Q. In that connection, did you address the

16 inhabitants over Radio Konjic and was that recorded?

17 A. Yes. In order to keep the public informed, I

18 acted in a positive direction on a number of occasions,

19 and certainly those recordings must still exist on

20 tapes, I hope.

21 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, since you were the legal

22 authorities, elected legally, do you know whether at

23 the beginning of '92 there were any illegal groups that

24 were preparing the defence of the city?

25 A. In answer to that question, I would say the

1 following: There was no need for us, on our side, to

2 form any illegal groups because we had a system and

3 regular institutions functioning within that system.

4 We had members of the ministry of internal affairs and

5 members of the Territorial Defence. The only forces

6 illegal and paramilitary forces, the only illegal and

7 paramilitary forces were those of the Serb

8 Democratic Party which would not accept the legal

9 authorities.

10 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, in view of what you have

11 just said and regardless of what was happening in other

12 parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina, tell me, please, whether

13 in 1992 were there any Green Berets, the Patriotic

14 League as armed formations and others like them?

15 A. As far as I know, such armed formations did

16 not exist in Konjic. As for the Green Berets, I know

17 that such a social organisation, a non-political

18 organisation, therefore, was formed in Konjic in 1994.

19 Q. According to your personal knowledge, could

20 anyone, including Zejnil Delalic, in 1992 be a member

21 of any such organisation?

22 A. As far as I know, he could not.

23 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, what did you undertake,

24 in concrete terms, to take over military facilities and

25 place them under the competence of the legal

1 authorities or, more specifically, what did the

2 municipal assembly, at its meeting on the 17th, do with

3 regard to the degrees and instructions received from

4 the state bodies?

5 A. After the recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina

6 on the 6th of April as an international legal entity,

7 by decision of the competent state bodies, and that

8 means the presidency of the republic of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina as well as the ministry of defence

10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was our duty to act pursuant

11 to those instructions and decisions.

12 At the mentioned assembly meeting on the 17th

13 of April, 1992 attended by representatives of all the

14 political parties, the agenda was reviewed and that

15 agenda had to do with the political and security

16 situation in the municipality of Konjic, and the report

17 on the same was submitted by the chief of the police

18 station, Mr. Jasmin Guska.

19 One of the agenda items also was the

20 structuring of the Territorial Defence and the proposal

21 on the appointment of the commander of the municipal

22 staff of the Territorial Defence of Konjic because the

23 previous man's term of office had expired.

24 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, exactly on what date was

25 that assembly meeting held, if you can recall?

1 A. It was held on the 17th of April, 1992.

2 Q. Who was attending that meeting in April 1992?

3 A. As I have just said, the composition of

4 members was the usual one. It was attended by deputies

5 of the SDA, HDZ, SDS and other political parties that

6 had a share in the government.

7 Q. Can you recall who chaired that assembly

8 meeting?

9 A. It's not a question of remembering. I was

10 the president and I chaired the meeting.

11 Q. Tell me, was Zejnil Delalic a member of the

12 assembly at the time and did he, at all, attend the

13 assembly meeting?

14 A. Absolutely out of the question. Zejnil

15 Delalic could not have been a member of the assembly

16 because he was not a deputy, nor did he participate in

17 the elections.

18 Q. Thank you. Who was proposed, at that

19 assembly meeting, as the new commander of the

20 reorganised Territorial Defence?

21 A. Mr. Enver Regepovic (phoen) was proposed as

22 the new commander.

23 Q. Did your proposal also mean that Enver

24 Regepovic was, indeed, elected commander?

25 A. No, absolutely not. Our right was merely to

1 nominate candidates, and the actual appointment was

2 done by the republican staff of the Territorial

3 Defence.

4 Q. May I now ask the witness to be shown --

5 first, may it be marked for identification and then

6 shown to the witness, that is the minutes of this

7 assembly meeting? I have a sufficient number of copies

8 for everyone. This is the original minutes with the

9 translation and here are the copies for their Honours

10 and the Prosecution.

11 THE REGISTRAR: This is document number

12 173/1.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC:

14 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, will you please look at

15 the signature at the end of the minutes?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you recognise the signature?

18 A. Yes, of course.

19 Q. Whose signature is it?

20 A. It is the signature of the secretary,

21 Mr. Muhamed Djikic, secretary of the municipal assembly

22 who is still working in the municipality but holds a

23 different position.

24 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, can you tell me, is that

25 the minutes of that meeting? Did you have those

1 minutes in your hands in April 1992?

2 A. Yes, indeed, and these are the minutes of

3 that meeting.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: In view of the fact that

5 these minutes reflect the procedure of the

6 transformation of the Territorial Defence and the

7 nomination of the new commander and this witness

8 presided over that meeting, I tender these minutes into

9 evidence as a Defence exhibit.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can tender it

11 through this witness, no problem.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: I should now like to ask,

13 since I have received from the witness, a videotape of

14 that meeting, I should like to show just the beginning

15 of that tape because I should like to tender that tape

16 into evidence as well.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can carry on with

18 your direct evidence. It is not necessary. We don't

19 need the tape.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Will you please tell me the

21 number of this document?

22 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D173/1.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

24 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, you said that all

25 parties attended this assembly meeting. Who was the

1 Vice-President of the assembly at the time?

2 A. It was the president of the Serb

3 Democratic Party, Mr. Dulo Kuljanin.

4 Q. Did he too participate in the work of this

5 assembly?

6 A. Yes, he did and he was a member of the

7 working presidency of the assembly meeting.

8 Q. What happened after the meeting ended?

9 A. After the meeting, the competent state bodies

10 started working on the implementation of the decisions

11 and conclusions adopted by that assembly meeting;

12 however, the Serb democratic party and its

13 representatives in the government refused to support

14 those decisions and actually, they actually sided with

15 the other party, namely --

16 Q. That will be sufficient.

17 Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, the fact that the Serbs abandoned

18 the legitimate bodies and that the town was being

19 shelled, did that mean that conditions existed

20 according to the law and your statute, that a different

21 method of operation should be adopted in accordance

22 with the constitution and the law or, to be more

23 specific, could the assembly continue to meet?

24 A. That was the last meeting of the assembly, in

25 that form, and pursuant to the regulations in force, as

1 well as the statute of the municipal assembly of

2 Konjic, which stipulated that under conditions of an

3 immediate threat of war or the proclamation of the

4 state of war, the assembly should interrupt its work

5 and all its competencies should be taken over by the

6 presidency of the municipal assembly, the composition

7 of which is defined by the statute of the municipal

8 assembly and which was known at the time as the war

9 presidency because there was a war so that is how

10 people called it.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 A. It is a body that was envisaged by the

13 regulations that existed in peace time.

14 Q. When did you, in Konjic, adopt that statute?

15 A. As far as I recall, that was in 1991.

16 Q. I should now like, with the assistance of the

17 usher, to show the witness the statute of the municipal

18 assembly with translations of the relevant portions

19 relating to procedures in case of war to see whether

20 the witness can recognise this statute as the document

21 he has just been referring to.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D174/1.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: At the end, the provisions

24 that are relevant for this case.

25 Q. Let me first ask the witness whether this

1 document, that you are looking at, is the statute of

2 the municipality of Konjic, in effect, on the 6th of

3 April, 1992 when the war began?

4 A. Yes, that is so. That was the statute in

5 force.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: I tender it into evidence as

7 a Defence Exhibit .

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is admitted.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

10 JUDGE JAN: You have not translated the whole

11 document. I'm interested in the provision relating to

12 the composition of the war presidency.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we have here

14 the competencies, article 68, the competencies are

15 transferred to the presidency. Article 66 talks about

16 the competencies of the assembly and which documents it

17 is authorised to adopt and later on the law regulates.

18 JUDGE JAN: This is a document, a very

19 lengthy one, in Bosnian language. The translation is

20 only about three pages. I was just wondering the

21 provision relating to composition of the war

22 presidency, if there is any such provision, who would

23 compose the war presidency or was it not part of this

24 document?

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: There is something about it

1 in article 68. We can look through it again and, if

2 necessary, have translated all the relevant

3 provisions. We thought that we had done so. Those

4 articles of relevance for this case, because article 66

5 and 67 refer to that matter.

6 JUDGE JAN: See, I just wanted to check up

7 whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic could ever be, under the

8 constitution, a member of the war presidency. That's

9 all. I was just wondering if there was any provision

10 in these regulations with regard to the persons who

11 would constitute that body. That is all.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Let me read to you article

13 68. It says the composition of the presidency of the

14 municipal assembly is determined by special decisions

15 of the municipal assembly in accordance with the law,

16 and we already have the law in the evidence which

17 specifies who enters ex officio and who is elected.

18 JUDGE JAN: Where the assembly could not

19 meet. If the assembly could not meet, who would

20 determine the composition of the presidency. This is

21 what I was wondering. Because if the assembly was

22 there.

23 THE WITNESS: Can I answer that question?

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.

25 THE WITNESS: I'd be glad to do that. I

1 think I understand the question.

2 JUDGE JAN: When the assembly could not meet,

3 so then who would determine who would be a member of

4 the war presidency?

5 THE WITNESS: That was established by

6 existing regulations from before and members of the war

7 presidency were there ex officio, that is the president

8 of the municipal assembly, the president -- no, it

9 isn't stated here because it says that it is determined

10 by other documents.

11 JUDGE JAN: Which says who will be the

12 members of the war presidency, but I'm thinking of

13 April 1993 --

14 THE WITNESS: That is not correct. In the

15 situation before the war, we had regulations that

16 stipulated who composed the war presidency in the case

17 of an immediate threat of war and a state of war, so

18 allow me to tell you who they are. Ex officio, the

19 president of the municipal assembly is the president of

20 the war presidency. The president of the executive

21 council of the municipal assembly is a member of the

22 war presidency. The chief of the public security

23 station is a member of the war presidency. The

24 commander of civil defence is a member of the war

25 presidency. The presidents of the clubs of parties,

1 that is of political parties, are also ex officio

2 members of the presidency. That would be the answer to

3 your question.

4 JUDGE JAN: Thank you very much.

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Can this statute,

7 given the relevance of some of its provisions but also

8 because the president of the municipality has

9 recognised it as its own document, I would like to

10 tender it into evidence.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You could tender it but

12 it's quite inadequate. Much of it is of not much

13 assistance. It is written in a language which is not

14 one of the languages of the Tribunal. Only article 66,

15 67, 68 and 69 and 70 and they are the.

16 JUDGE JAN: From your Defence point of view

17 --

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So it can hardly be of

19 any use.

20 JUDGE JAN: We now know what the composition

21 of the war presidency is from the mouth of the

22 president so how will this help in resolving the

23 questions before us? So don't waste time and money in

24 getting the whole thing translated.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, what are you

1 trying to show by tendering it? What does it support,

2 because if it supports the question of convening the

3 war presidency, we might sufficiently rely on the

4 evidence of the witness? But if there are other things

5 you want to introduce here, it might not be of any

6 help. The document you want to introduce might not be

7 of any assistance.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, there is also

9 the article 66 here, which is important, because it

10 speaks of the kind of documents, decisions which the

11 war presidency could adopt and also you have a whole

12 range of documents which have been tendered,

13 introduced, and now we are trying to provide the basis

14 on which these were introduced. However, if you are

15 asking me to tender just an abridged version of the

16 statute, and, indeed, as you said, it could be a waste

17 of money and maybe court's time to have the whole thing

18 translated, I'm also willing to introduce just those.

19 JUDGE JAN: Article 66 does not talk about

20 presidency.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: It speaks of the assembly.

22 JUDGE JAN: From April to November when

23 Zejnil Delalic was in Konjic. Before that, he was not

24 even there.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The only against you is

1 the Prosecution. They are not challenging the

2 activities of the municipal council, are they? Nobody

3 is attacking it. Nobody denies its legitimacy, so I

4 don't know what you are really about. Perhaps the

5 Prosecutor might assist us here, if you have anything

6 against the municipal council as a legitimate body? I

7 don't see all the arguments now.

8 JUDGE JAN: You see, Mr. Zejnil Delalic was

9 outside Bosnia before April. He comes in April to

10 attend some funeral. He stays on to November because

11 of the situation in Bosnia, and the war presidency was

12 constituted. Article 66 does not talk about the

13 competencies of the war presidency so what's the use of

14 having it on the record.

15 THE WITNESS: No, this article directly

16 speaks to the activities of the war presidency. Let me

17 explain. The war presidency, in practical terms,

18 substitutes for the assembly. It replaces it so

19 article 66 speaks about the competencies of both the

20 assembly and the war presidency because the war

21 presidency is a body.

22 JUDGE JAN: I understand that and we have

23 heard enough of that. Is it possibly what you have in

24 mind is the assembly passed a resolution appointing

25 someone that -- probably what you have in mind is that

1 the assembly passed a resolution appointing someone as

2 a commander of the TO. Well, in the minutes, we'll

3 find the objection of the SDS representative in the

4 assembly that this can only be done by the republican

5 TO. Have you noticed that in the minutes of the

6 assembly? It says, the subject before the assembly is

7 appointment of a commander of the TO and it says the SD

8 representative, I can't pronounce his name, emphasise

9 that such decision could be made only conditionally and

10 the consent was to be given by the Republic's view of

11 the TO and the suggestion was taken into account. Even

12 at that time, the SDS representative brought, before

13 the assembly, the correct legal position.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: This was not a member of the

15 SDS. This was a member of the social democratic

16 party. He was of Serb ethnic background, but the

17 assembly did accept his proposal according to the law

18 and only later when the republican body did what it

19 did. However, I offered the videotape and this here is

20 the person sitting in front of you who actually

21 accepted that.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You exercised the --

23 THE WITNESS: It was the social democratic

24 party, not the SDS.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't see any

1 problem. If you have any evidence to lead, go ahead.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Just one comment, I think

3 it's relevant, Your Honours, because as of 17 April,

4 the assembly is not competent in appointing commanders

5 of Territorial Defence which can also be seen from the

6 videotape which we have not seen, and this is what the

7 witness has been saying, which is completely opposite

8 of what the Prosecution has been saying.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Read the indictment

10 again and try to know exactly what is the accusation

11 against your client.

12 JUDGE JAN: Even if you assume that the war

13 presidency, the assembly were competent to appoint the

14 commander of the TO, but is there any evidence that

15 Mr. Zejnil Delalic was appointed as commander of the

16 TO? We're only concerned with your client.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is exactly what we're

18 trying to prove, that it never happened. However, the

19 Prosecution claims the opposite of this.

20 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, given the situation and

21 the intense shelling of the town, how was the town

22 supplied from the end of April until the end of 1992?

23 A. The situation in Konjic was very difficult.

24 In all spheres of daily lives.

25 JUDGE JAN: -- we've had some evidence on

1 that, that people were eating plums.

2 THE WITNESS: To make a long story short, we

3 were deficient in everything.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC:

5 Q. Can you tell the Court how many refugees

6 arrived in the Town of Konjic from different parts of

7 Bosnia and who took care of them?

8 A. The first refugees started arriving in Konjic

9 in the month of March, that is in late March and early

10 April. From the villages, which -- from the villages

11 from which the Serb paramilitary units had driven

12 out non-Serb population. These were the villages of

13 Jakici, Racaci (phoen) --

14 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, can you tell us the

15 approximate figure of the refugees at that time?

16 A. The total number of refugees in Konjic, in

17 that period, was somewhere around 15,000. These were

18 the refugees from Eastern Herzegovina, Eastern Bosnia,

19 who, who had walked for days across mountains and had

20 great difficulties in reaching safety.

21 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, as a legal authority in

22 Konjic, did you place under control, certain military

23 objects, facilities in Konjic?

24 A. Yes, let me re-emphasise the date of

25 independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The international

1 community recognised this country and from that day on,

2 all property was -- all this property belonged to the

3 legal government authorities. Following the

4 instructions of the competent state bodies, on the

5 nights between 18 and 19 April 1992, we took control of

6 the facilities for production of ordnance, that was the

7 Igman Company. After that, we took control of the

8 compound of the Celebici barracks.

9 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, do you know how the

10 Celebici barracks were taken over?

11 A. Yes, I know. Commander of the Celebici

12 barracks was a Bosniac, I believe that he was a warrant

13 officer in the former JNA and his name was Narcis

14 Hasacic. He signed off on loyalty to the legal

15 authorities.

16 Q. Were you personally involved in the

17 negotiations about -- on the take over of the Celebici

18 barracks?

19 A. Yes. On one occasion in a hospital where I

20 was working, because even though I was a president of

21 the municipality, I still worked in the hospital two

22 days a week and on one occasion this person came to

23 me. I had never seen him before. He was in civilian

24 clothes. He introduced himself to me and he expressed

25 his wish, as a Bosniac, to turn over the Celebici

1 barracks to us. Since I had previously received

2 information on this wish of his, I informed the

3 competent persons in the TO headquarters and the entire

4 procedure, the entire operation was then conducted by

5 the TO headquarters.

6 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, do you know whether Mr.

7 Zejnil Delalic took part in the take-over of this

8 facility. And do you know in what capacity and was he

9 at all involved in a take-over of the barracks by the

10 legal authorities?

11 A. I have already stated that this take-over was

12 conducted through the Territorial Defence headquarters

13 and the -- and Delalic's involvement in it may have

14 been only in transportation of the material found there

15 because Mr. Zejnil Delalic had absolutely no role in

16 the TO headquarters or in the municipality.

17 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, as a physician, can you

18 tell us whether your health centre was prepared for

19 such sudden onslaught of war?

20 A. Given the size of the Konjic town, before the

21 war we did not have enough hospital facilities. We

22 only had some specialised units. And given the large

23 influx of the wounded and other persons who were

24 flowing into Konjic and because of the fact that the

25 roads had been blocked both in the direction of

1 Sarajevo and Mostar, we resorted to establishing a war

2 hospital in Konjic.

3 Q. How was your hospital equipped with medical

4 supplies and other equipment at that time? Was it

5 adequate?

6 A. It was very poor.

7 MR. NIEMANN: Objection.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why are you objecting to

9 asking him how the hospital was equipped?

10 MR. NIEMANN: Because it's irrelevant, Your

11 Honour.

12 JUDGE JAN: Probably what you want to share

13 is, there were not enough facilities for the detention

14 of persons, so they had to move to Celebici. That's

15 what the witness has said. The witness has said yes in

16 Konjic and the number of persons who had been arrested

17 or detained was much larger.

18 MR. NIEMANN: This is a hospital.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's about influx of so

20 many people into Konjic community, the increase of

21 refugees into the place. The need for this type of

22 facilities.

23 MR. NIEMANN: I won't argue any further, Your

24 Honour.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can ask him.

1 THE WITNESS: There was a lack of medication,

2 especially things needed for surgery because that was

3 the greatest need. We needed most of those supplies,

4 because we had a lot of very serious and bad wounds

5 coming from the combat activities.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Mr.

7 Hadzihuseinovic.

8 Q. Given how you described the situation in

9 Konjic, the blockade and everything, do you know as a

10 president of the municipality, that the Konjic

11 authorities have adopted certain decisions and taken

12 steps to lift this blockade off Konjic?

13 A. I will gladly answer this question. But

14 before that, I would like to give a brief

15 introduction.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it's better you

17 answer the question, instead of getting in on your own

18 case.

19 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. The

20 competent military authorities, which means the TO

21 headquarters and also the competent police authorities,

22 given the fact that the Serb paramilitary formations

23 had blocked the town from the north, it was in the

24 Village of Bradina on the M-17 highway and on the

25 south-west. It was a regional road at the village

1 called Donje Selo or lower village. And thereby, a

2 large area of the Konjic municipality was effectively

3 blockaded, blocked, and this is where some 16,000

4 people live and this is an area called Neretvica. On the

5 other side, Serb forces from the area of Borci,

6 which had occupied this area as early as 1991, while

7 preparing the operation Dubrovnik, so the Town of

8 Konjic was surrounded, on all sides, by some kind of a

9 ring.

10 Q. Very well, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, you explained

11 how the situation was, but as a member of the municipal

12 government and as a physician, do you know whether,

13 during the combat operations around Donje Selo and

14 Bradina, there were any casualties, either dead or

15 wounded?

16 A. Yes, I remember very, very vividly this

17 period at Donje Selo. During the lifting of the

18 blockade, two members of the police force were killed.

19 If necessary I can even state their names Mustafa Boric

20 and Velija Niksic. And at Bradina, a 16-year-old boy

21 was killed by the name of Rizvanovic, and a member of

22 the HVO was also killed. I believe his first named was

23 Goran. And I know this because I attended the funerals

24 of these people.

25 Q. And as a physician, do you know whether there

1 were any wounded during this fighting?

2 A. Absolutely. There were a number of wounded

3 and some of them have consequences of these injuries to

4 date.

5 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, can you tell us whether

6 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, that is in May, 1992, was in Konjic

7 and, according to your knowledge, did he take part in

8 any of these operations?

9 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic at that time was not in

10 Konjic. I believe that he went on official duty in the

11 sense of procurement of certain material, that is

12 logistics equipment. He went to Croatia. And, as far

13 as I recall, he did not attend the funerals of these

14 men either. Because this is a custom in our area, in

15 our -- that everybody attends funerals.

16 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, given this complex

17 situation in town, the shelling, the lack of goods,

18 dead and wounded, did there come a time when the

19 military headquarters and the war presidency were to

20 assess the situation and agree as to how to proceed in

21 these war -- in this wartime situation, advanced

22 wartime situation?

23 A. Yes, I think I can answer this question in

24 the affirmative. We were sitting continuously because

25 we just had too much work to do, at every moment in

1 time, and we also did not know whether we would survive

2 the day. And I recall this was in the later part of

3 May or, more specific, I think this was 18 May, 1992,

4 the war presidency of the Konjic Municipality held a

5 meeting with the joint command of the armed forces of

6 Konjic.

7 Q. Your Honour, the next line of questioning is

8 a block of questions, I am wondering whether if this

9 would be a good moment to break off before entering

10 this area?

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will now rise and

12 resume at 4.30 p.m.

13 --- Recess taken at 4.05 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 4.33 p.m.

15 (The witness entered court)

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind the witness he is

17 still under oath.

18 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

19 are still under oath.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, where are

21 we? You were continuing with your --

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. There was a

23 slight lack of clarity in connection with the question

24 put by Judge Jan. To clarify this fact, I should like

25 to give to the witness once again the minutes of the

1 9th meeting of the municipal assembly in order to be

2 able to ask him two brief questions.

3 JUDGE JAN: That has nothing to do with the

4 command responsibility of your client. Even if there

5 is no clarity, it doesn't affect it at all. It's

6 nobody's case that he was appointed as the TO commander

7 by the war presidency, so we are not concerned whether

8 the war presidency appointed someone as commander of

9 the TO. It doesn't relate to your client at all so why

10 go into that?

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have they conflicting

12 duties? Are there any conflicting duties between the

13 coordinator and the TO?

14 JUDGE JAN: What was his function of the

15 coordinator if he was appointed --

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let him us tell us.

17 JUDGE JAN: This is more important than going

18 into these matters about the competency of the war

19 presidency and all that.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I understand

21 you very well, but as the president observed, I

22 understand the indictment very well and the position of

23 the Prosecution. This document and this session was

24 very important whether the assembly could give him any

25 kind of superior authority. That is where the story of

1 the Prosecution begins. And the position of the

2 Defence, you drew attention to a point which I wish

3 to elucidate with the help of this witness, the

4 beginning of the Prosecution's case.

5 JUDGE JAN: The issue before us is the

6 command responsibility of your client, nothing more

7 than that. Admittedly, he was a coordinator appointed

8 by the war presidency. Ask him what were the functions

9 assigned to him and did it really relate to the

10 Celebici camp?

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you remember, there

12 are two significant issues about Delalic. He was

13 appointed coordinator. He was also appointed Tactical

14 Group 1 commander. He must have acted in these two

15 areas. If his activities in doing these two areas that

16 has brought him any of these offences for which he has

17 been charged, so these are the only things that concern

18 you, not whether any other thing happened somewhere.

19 That has nothing to do with him.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I don't wish to

21 go outside that framework, it may appear to be that,

22 but my questions are leading to that crucial issue.

23 JUDGE JAN: Then come to them straight away.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to Judge

25 Karibi-Whyte, please?

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The minutes of the

2 municipal assembly, these minutes are not a point to

3 what has been disputed so --

4 JUDGE JAN: I'm sure as president of the war

5 presidency, he has done lots of things and he can keep

6 on telling us this for a year, but let us confine

7 ourselves to those points which are in issue before

8 us.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC:

10 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, at the assembly meeting

11 that we have referred to, the former staff commander,

12 Major Prevljak, did he inform the assembly on changes

13 in the Territorial Defence and did you, accordingly,

14 agree on a proposal for the new organisation?

15 A. Yes. I can answer that question in the

16 positive, in the affirmative. Mr. Smajo Prevljak spoke

17 at that meeting and informed us that that morning such

18 a document had reached the staff headquarters from

19 Sarajevo, a document that came from the republican

20 staff of the Territorial Defence. He informed the

21 assembly meeting of the same. At the same time, he

22 informed the meeting that in the course of the meeting

23 he expected confirmation from Sarajevo of our proposal

24 on the appointment.

25 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, is it true then --

1 first, my question is: Did confirmation of your

2 proposal arrive from Sarajevo on that day or the next

3 day; do you know that?

4 A. As far as I know, it didn't reach us in the

5 course of our meeting.

6 Q. Do you know whether your proposals were

7 endorsed by the republican authorities?

8 A. Yes, they were. I do know that.

9 JUDGE JAN: That leads to the appointment of

10 one -- please be concerned with Mr. Delalic. Please

11 confine yourself to Mr. Delalic's role in this.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC:

13 Q. My next question, Your Honours, from that day

14 on, did all the legal authorities function in

15 accordance with the new regulations. That is my

16 question. The position of the Prosecution is --

17 A. From that day on, after approval came from

18 the republican bodies, all the bodies acted in line

19 with the any regulations.

20 Q. Before the break, you said that you had a

21 joint meeting between the war presidency and the joint

22 staff on the 18th of May. At that meeting, did you

23 adopt any conclusions?

24 A. Yes. At that meeting, we did adopt

25 conclusions. I said earlier on that that meeting was

1 held and a series of conclusions were adopted at that

2 meeting having to do with the civilian authorities and

3 also a certain number of conclusions related to the

4 bodies of the joint staff or, rather, the joint command

5 of the armed forces. After that, all of us worked in

6 accordance with our competencies.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: With the assistance of the

8 usher, I should like to show the witness the text of

9 the conclusions, which has already been admitted into

10 evidence, for me to be able to ask a number of

11 questions.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Defence document D175/1.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC:

14 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, have you looked at this

15 text?

16 A. Yes, I have.

17 Q. Do you recognise the signature?

18 A. Yes, it is my signature.

19 Q. Will you tell me, please,

20 Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, whether after this meeting it was

21 quite clear what were the competencies of the war

22 presidency and what were the obligations and

23 responsibilities of the command of the armed forces, of

24 the defence forces?

25 A. Yes, it was completely clear. The war

1 presidency had its own competencies according to the

2 constitution, and the same applies to the armed forces.

3 Q. Is it true that these conclusions established

4 that all the bodies had to act in accordance with their

5 competencies?

6 A. Absolutely so.

7 Q. After this joint meeting, did you, in the war

8 presidency, review the implementation of the

9 conclusions relating to you and the adoption of the

10 corresponding decisions?

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. Did you, on that day, reviewing your

13 obligations and responsibilities, decide on the

14 appointment of Zejnil Delalic to any particular

15 assignment or position?

16 A. Yes, we did adopt such a decision.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: In view of the fact that this

18 is a decision dated 18th of May, I should like to have

19 this decision on the appointment of the coordinator.

20 It is already in evidence, D136, D/11, also a Defence

21 exhibit.

22 Q. Before asking you a question related to this

23 decision, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, I want to ask you

24 whether, in accordance with the new regulations, the

25 war presidency could appoint the commander of the TO

1 staff or other persons holding military positions?

2 A. The war presidency, according to the new

3 regulations, absolutely could not appoint anyone to any

4 military post because it didn't have any such

5 authorisation.

6 Q. You have seen the decision that I have just

7 given to you. Tell me, please, who signed this

8 decision?

9 A. This is my signature. I signed it.

10 Q. Is this a decision whereby the war presidency

11 appointed Zejnil Delalic the coordinator for the

12 defence forces?

13 A. Yes. That is that decision.

14 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, did this appointment

15 mean an appointment of Zejnil Delalic to any kind of

16 military position?

17 A. Absolutely not because, as I have already

18 said, the war presidency is a civilian body so it could

19 not make decisions on the appointment of any military

20 commanders.

21 Q. Did Zejnil Delalic in discharging the task

22 that you assigned to him, could he issue orders to

23 military structures?

24 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic absolutely could not issue

25 any kind of orders to military structures because he

1 was a civilian. As a civilian, this body in line with

2 its constitutional and legal authority and in

3 accordance with the statute of Konjic municipality

4 appointed him as a civilian and in the status of a

5 civilian to this position. As the body appointing him

6 did not have those rights, then Mr. Delalic could not

7 have had any such rights.

8 Q. I apologise for a moment,

9 Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, in view of the fact that my

10 learned colleague has checked that the conclusions

11 dated 18th of May signed by this witness were not

12 admitted as Defence exhibit. I'm now tendering them

13 into evidence.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You want them to be in

15 evidence?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to Judge

17 Karibi-White, please?

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You want the conclusions

19 of --

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Of the 18th of May to be

21 admitted into evidence.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's admitted. The

23 chairman himself said -- the chairman being here

24 himself is sufficient. You don't need it for any

25 purpose.

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, in point 2 of the

3 decision on the appointment of Mr. Delalic, it is

4 stated that he will directly coordinate work between

5 the defence forces of Konjic municipality and the war

6 presidency. Could you please tell us,

7 Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, what were in practise the duties

8 of the coordinator appointed by you?

9 A. The very word "coordinator" means that his

10 duty was to reflect certain needs which certain bodies

11 addressed to the war presidency or certain organs of

12 the war presidency or the war presidency itself had

13 certain requests in relation to the armed forces. I

14 could give you some practical examples of those

15 activities, if that is important for the court.

16 Q. Before I or the court asks you about that,

17 let me first ask whether you whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic

18 attended the meeting of the war presidency when you

19 appointed him to this position?

20 A. I should like to remind their Honours what I

21 have been saying. I said that Mr. Delalic was away,

22 was in Croatia.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's easy for you to

24 answer. Was he at the meeting or not?

25 A. He did not attend the meeting. He did not.

1 MS. RESIDOVIC:

2 Q. Do you know, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, in the

3 period before he went to Croatia and while he was in

4 Croatia as a civilian, as you said, what were the kinds

5 of duties that he carried out?

6 A. Mr. Delalic, before being appointed to this

7 position of coordinator, engaged in similar

8 activities. That is, he was working on logistic

9 tasks. That is the procurement of material and

10 technical means which were important for defence, for

11 the defence of the Town of Konjic.

12 Q. Counsel, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, can you recall

13 how it came about that Mr. Zejnil Delalic should have

14 been appointed to this position?

15 A. I wish to assure their Honours that his

16 appointment in nothing special because such

17 appointments to the position of co-ordinators were

18 several. Therefore, the war presidency, which engaged

19 in a large range of activities and which was very busy,

20 would seek out ways to ensure maximum efficiency. And

21 the idea to appoint him at the time was not actually,

22 especially designed for him. The idea emerged that we

23 should appoint a person who would be effective as a

24 kind of mediator in dealing with certain problems

25 between the civilian body, that is the war presidency

1 and the joint command, that is the armed forces. The

2 recommendation that he, himself, should be appointed

3 came from the economic staff. Because Mr. Delalic was

4 a well-known figure. He was known as a person who had

5 been working for a number of years in business in

6 economic affairs. And in the view of the economic

7 staff, he was the most suitable person to discharge

8 such a function. In view of his experience and the

9 numerous connections he had both in the country and

10 abroad.

11 Q. Counsel, a moment ago in answer the a

12 question from His Honour Judge Jan, you explained the

13 composition of the were presidency, to be even more

14 precise, can you tell the Court whether in those days,

15 the commander of the municipal staff or the commander

16 of the joint staff, were they members of the war

17 presidency?

18 A. No. The commander of the municipal staff, or

19 the commander of the joint command, was not a member of

20 a war presidency that is certain.

21 Q. Counsel, you also said that the situation was

22 complicated and you wanted to simplify it, can you

23 explain why some problems could not be resolved within

24 the joint command and, in fact, what was your intention

25 by appointing the commander, not the commander, the

1 coordinator -- counsel, yes, I'm sorry -- what were the

2 things that he was meant to take care of?

3 A. I will briefly explain that to the Court with

4 the an aim behind the appointment of a coordinator. In

5 view of the fact that there was a state of war, the war

6 presidency was contacted by a series of persons every

7 day from the armed forces and it is well known that the

8 armed forces consisted of three bodies, three

9 formations: members of the ministry of the interior,

10 the HVO and the Territorial Defence. All three

11 elements had their own separate command structure, the

12 chain of command structure, chain of command, so that

13 the civilian bodies would lose or waste a lot of time

14 if they were to discuss the same things with each one

15 of them. By appointing a coordinator as a civilian, as

16 a person who would voice all those needs and

17 communicate them between the war presidency and the

18 armed forces. By doing this, in my view, the war

19 presidency ensured greater efficiency of its work when

20 it came to a large number of tasks that it had to

21 discharge.

22 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, you just answered my

23 follow up question, which was, did a coordinator

24 actually facilitate your work with different formations

25 that composed defence forces in town?

1 A. Absolutely.

2 Q. You said that in this position, Mr. Zejnil

3 Delalic could not issue orders, could Mr. Zejnil

4 Delalic reach, himself, certain decisions?

5 A. Absolutely, he absolutely could not take any

6 decisions or issue any orders. His function was purely

7 technical in nature.

8 Q. Could Mr. Zejnil Delalic's coordinator make

9 appointments which otherwise were in confidence of the

10 war presidency?

11 A. No, absolutely not.

12 Q. Could he make appointments in some other

13 areas where the war presidency had no authority?

14 A. No, absolutely not, he could not make any

15 appointments.

16 Q. Could Mr. Delalic make any military

17 appointments?

18 A. I have already answered that question. He as

19 civilian had no authority whatsoever to make any

20 appointments, military or civilian or otherwise.

21 Q. Did by this appointment, Mr. Zejnil Delalic

22 become a member of the war presidency?

23 A. By this appointment, Mr. Zejnil Delalic did

24 not become a member of the war presidency because the

25 composition of the war presidency was already known and

1 it could not be changed.

2 Q. Did Mr. Zejnil Delalic's coordinator attend

3 any meetings, any sessions and, if he did, did he have

4 any authority to joining, taking decisions during these

5 sessions?

6 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic could attend meetings of

7 the war presidency only as an exception. And when he

8 did attend, he only had the right to contribute to the

9 discussion, but not to vote.

10 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, do you know whether Mr.

11 Zejnil Delalic at any time during 1992 was appointed or

12 was on duty of the commander of the territorial staff

13 of the Konjic municipality?

14 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic was never appointed to

15 the, to commander of the municipal -- of the

16 territorial staff of the Konjic municipality.

17 Q. Do you know who in May, in early May, 1992,

18 was commander of the TO?

19 A. This was a period when the commanders changed

20 very frequently, but I believe that in early May, the

21 commander was Mr. Esad Ramic.

22 Q. If you were to be shown a videotape where Mr.

23 Zejnil Delalic is being introduced as a commander TO

24 and this is in the middle of May, 1992, would you say

25 that this introduction was true or false?

1 A. Whoever were to introduce Mr. Zejnil Delalic

2 during this period as commander of the TO headquarters

3 would be saying -- will be stating a false thing. It

4 simply is not true.

5 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, during 1992, did you

6 know the fact that there was a journalist who

7 introduced Mr. Zejnil Delalic in such a manner?

8 A. Yes, I am aware of this fact. That is, we --

9 we were able in Konjic to get TV programs broadcast by

10 Croatian television. And in one of these programs,

11 which was named, "Slikom Na Sliku", that is image on

12 image, Mr. Zejnil Delalic was a guest. I personally

13 watched this broadcast and I believe that it was either

14 the programme director or somebody else in charge of

15 this broadcast, did misrepresent Mr. Delalic's title.

16 It was -- we laughed when we saw this because we knew

17 at that time who the commander was, so this was not

18 true. Because at that time, Mr. Delalic was a

19 civilian.

20 Q. But Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, did you know on what

21 business was Mr. Delalic on at that time?

22 A. Yes, I did know that time because he was

23 there on official duty. He had received authorisation

24 as a civilian to do some logistics work.

25 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, until when was Mr.

1 Delalic on this duty of coordinator to which he was

2 appointed to the war presidency on 18 May?

3 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic was on duty of

4 coordinator, which is the duty that he was appointed to

5 by the war presidency up until 26 July, 1992, when Mr.

6 Delalic assumed the duty of a logistics officer for the

7 Borci operation. And by leaving to that location, his

8 duty of coordinator did not cease.

9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: There may be an

10 interpretation issue. Page 117 of Live Note, line 9,

11 it's 26 July, 1992, could that be verified to see

12 whether the witness said 26 July.

13 JUDGE JAN: Yes, he did say 26 July.

14 THE WITNESS: June, June.

15 JUDGE JAN: He said 26 July. Well, he can

16 correct himself.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC:

18 Q. We got a misinterpretation.

19 A. It was on June, not July, it was in June,

20 that is correct.

21 Q. You -- I want to bring you back to the point

22 where you left off, that his role of coordinator did

23 not cease?

24 A. Mr. Delalic continued on the same -- with the

25 same tasks which involved logistics, logistical

1 activities within, as part of the Borci operation and

2 he continued with the same activities.

3 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, let me take you back to

4 some other activities in which Mr. Zejnil Delalic was

5 involved while on duty as coordinator, can you

6 illustrate several things that you remember Mr. Delalic

7 being engaged in around June of 1992?

8 A. Yes, I can indeed and I'll do it gladly. Mr.

9 Delalic was involved in providing security for the

10 warehouse facilities where different types of equipment

11 were stored. And, in this way, he also put his own

12 house as well as the house of his sister at disposal

13 for these purposes. He also invested part of his own

14 personal means to provide certain equipment. He was

15 also involved in setting up communication systems. And

16 when I say this, I have in mind the opening of the

17 railroad tracks between Pazaric and Jablanica, which

18 all had to do with enabling persons and goods to be

19 transported, which was all in the function of the

20 defence.

21 Q. Very well. So these were some of the

22 activities. Now, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, just since you

23 said Mr. Zejnil Delalic could not issue military

24 orders, did you during 1992 perhaps see certain orders

25 which were signed by military commanders and were also

1 a signature of the coordinator that was featured, can

2 you perhaps explain us why that signature would have

3 been placed on documents of this type?

4 A. Yes, this would happen occasionally, that in

5 some documents his signature would also feature. But

6 this signature only meant that he was present there

7 because he was a person who was supposed to transmit

8 certain information to the war presidency from the

9 command post or vice versa. And in no way did that

10 mean that he could take decisions.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, turning to the preparation

12 and execution of the defence. What were -- what was

13 the role of the war presidency?

14 A. The war presidency has the highest body of

15 power was involved in a whole range of activities

16 relating to the Defence. The most important among them

17 were securing the maintenance of the vital functions of

18 this town in order for it to survive, which involved,

19 for instance, supply, keeping the water supply going,

20 keeping the electrical power supplies going, then

21 maintenance of the health services, functioning of the

22 social care, functioning of certain institutions such

23 as the Red Cross and a whole range of other activities,

24 which were vital for the functioning of a municipality

25 in the, in the period of war.

1 Q. Among responsibilities which you just

2 mentioned, did war presidency also have a role in the

3 command and control of the armed forces?

4 A. The war presidency had absolutely no

5 authority or powers with respect to the control and

6 command of the military forces because it was a

7 civilian body.

8 Q. Mr. President, given that you were dealing

9 with a whole range of problems, did you at some point

10 have a session of the assembly at which you addressed

11 these issues and did you reach a decision on those?

12 A. I tend to say that, those days, I was on

13 duty, I was on call for 24-hours a day, so we really

14 worked continuously. I slept in my office. There was

15 a metal cot there and so there were times when I did

16 not see my family for 20 days in a row.

17 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, I am now going to show

18 you some documents, they are -- they relate to our

19 proceedings and let me show -- it's 236, D-14. And I

20 have enough copies for the court, so if he would please

21 distribute them around. The transcript reflects

22 "236." It is 136.

23 Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, is this document signed?

24 A. Yes. This is my signature.

25 Q. You recognise your signature on this

1 document; is that correct?

2 A. Absolutely.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Since the witness recognised

4 the document which he has signed in his own

5 handwriting, I am offering it into evidence as Defence

6 exhibit.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, it is entered.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

9 Q. Before we address some of these conclusions,

10 let me just ask you, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, did the war

11 presidency have any authority regarding the arrest,

12 detention and custody of any persons who were detained?

13 A. The answer to this question is no and

14 absolutely not. The war presidency had no such

15 authority.

16 Q. Mr. President, do you know who had the

17 authority to arrest and detain persons in those days in

18 Konjic?

19 A. Yes, I do know about that. These were the

20 bodies of the ministry of the interior, that is, the

21 police as well as the HVO -- the military police and,

22 later on, the TO military police.

23 Q. Mr. President, can you tell me whether during

24 this period, that is, in 1992, the war presidency had

25 any authority in the establishment of prisons or any

1 authority over the prisons which had already been

2 established?

3 A. The war presidency had no authority. It

4 never established or did have any authority in that

5 respect.

6 Q. As the president of the war presidency, did

7 you know whether there were any prisons in Konjic

8 before the beginning of war and at the very beginning

9 of war, if there was a prison?

10 A. Konjic is a small town, and before the war,

11 it did not have a prison. Within the police precinct

12 building, I know that there were two rooms in which

13 persons who had been arrested or detained were placed,

14 but only for a short period of time, until they were

15 transferred to the district prison in Mostar where the

16 prison was located. There were also similar prison

17 facilities in Zenica and Sarajevo.

18 Q. Considering the combat activities in wartime,

19 can you tell me, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, whether in the

20 spring of 1992 it was possible to take persons who had

21 been detained, to transfer them to Mostar?

22 A. No. This was absolutely not possible

23 because, at that time, Mostar and the entire Eastern

24 Herzegovina was occupied by the military forces of the

25 JNA.

1 Q. Mr. President, was there a court in Konjic

2 and was there a public prosecutor's office there?

3 A. I can answer that question in the

4 affirmative. Before the war, there was a basic court

5 in Konjic as well as the public prosecutor's office.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE JAN: He said the case referred to

8 Sarajevo and Mostar. You already have evidence on

9 that.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: I only want to ask the

11 president, as he was the president of the municipal

12 assembly, whether the assembly and the war presidency

13 were authorised, in absence of court, whether they were

14 authorised to establish a court. This is my question

15 to the chief officer of the municipality.

16 JUDGE JAN: The chief officer has said that

17 the courts are not even functioning. We already have

18 evidence of that. Don't cover the field which has

19 already been covered.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Shall we go on or shall we

21 conclude for today?

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you're tired, we will

23 conclude.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: I'm not particularly tired.

25 I could go on for another two minutes for sure.

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think there is no

2 point continuing now. We will adjourn now. Tomorrow

3 morning, we will not reassemble before 10.45. The

4 Trial Chamber will reassemble at 10.45.

5 Please read back what you might have done so

6 that you do not keep on repeating the same evidence all

7 over again. It will help you think more clearly.

8 We can now adjourn until 10.45 a.m.

9 tomorrow.

10 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 5.29 p.m.

11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of

12 May, 1998 at 10.45 a.m.

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