1 --- Upon commencing at 10.07 a.m.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and
3 gentlemen. May we have the appearances now, please?
4 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, please, my name
5 is Niemann. I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry
6 and Mr. Turone for the Prosecution.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The appearances for the
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
10 My name is Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr.
11 Zejnil Delalic, along with my colleague Professor
12 Eugene O'Sullivan from Canada.
13 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm
14 Zelko Olujic, attorney from Croatia, Defence counsel
15 for Mr. Zelko Mucic. At the same time, I apologise for
16 my colleague Mr. Tomislav Kuzmanovic who will be
17 joining us in the courtroom after the first break.
18 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
19 I'm Salih Karabdic from Sarajevo, appearing on behalf
20 of Mr. Hazim Delic, together with my colleague Mr. Tom
21 Moran from Houston, Texas.
22 MS. BOLER: Good morning, Your Honours. My
23 name is Nancy Boler. I represent Esad Landzo. I am
24 from Houston, Texas. I'm here today with my colleague
25 from Houston, Mr. David Eisen, while Cynthia McMurrey
1 is still out of town. Thank you.
2 MR. EISEN: Good morning, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will have the witness
5 (The witness entered court)
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind the witness he is
7 still under oath.
8 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that
9 you're still under oath.
10 THE WITNESS: I understand.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please proceed, Ms.
13 MIDHAT CEROVAC
14 Cross-examination by Ms. McHenry (Continued)
15 Q. Good morning, sir.
16 A. Good morning to you too.
17 Q. Sir, yesterday you stated that there were no
18 independent or private units in Konjic. Is it then
19 your testimony that the HOS units and the Splitska
20 Brigade were always subordinate to the TO?
21 A. What I said applied to the armed structures
22 of the municipality of Konjic. I didn't mention the
23 Split Brigade or the HOS.
24 Q. Well, were there structures present in Konjic
25 that were not part of the municipality of Konjic; I
1 say, "armed structures"?
2 A. Yes, temporarily. They came to the Konjic
3 municipality. Actually, it was the Split Brigade.
4 Q. I actually don't need you to explain that. I
5 think we've already heard testimony. I just wanted you
6 to confirm it. I think we will be done more quickly if
7 you can answer a question with a simple "yes" or "no"
8 or "I don't know," and then you do so.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Counsel need not ask
10 questions she does not need the answers to.
11 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you regard that as
13 relevant, but go to the areas which really are
15 MS. McHENRY: Yes, sir.
16 Q. Sir, was General Daidza in the Konjic area?
17 A. No, never. I don't know who you're referring
18 to when you say "General Daidza." I know no one by
19 that name.
20 Q. Sir, you stated that with respect to the
21 swearing in of the Gijret unit, it was agreed that
22 Mr. Delalic would speak since he had helped provide
23 uniforms. Was it also agreed during the morning
24 briefing, that Mr. Delalic would wear a military
25 costume and that everyone would act as if Mr. Delalic
1 had command authority?
2 JUDGE JAN: You're asking two questions.
3 First, was it decided that he will wear a uniform;
4 second, that he would have authority. Split up your
6 MS. McHENRY:
7 Q. Sir, was it agreed at the morning briefing
8 that Mr. Delalic would wear a military costume?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Was it agreed that people would act as if
11 Mr. Delalic had command authority?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you stated, with
14 respect to Celebici, that the prisoners who were
15 brought to Celebici were people who had participated in
16 operations or military operations or had been carrying
17 arms. How do you know that?
18 A. You have used a term to describe people who
19 participated in operations. These were people who used
20 firearms against the legal forces of the state of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. For us, they were rebels who had
22 violated the integrity and sovereignty of the state of
24 Q. Maybe you could listen more carefully to my
25 exact question. My exact question was not who were the
1 persons. My question was how do you know the persons,
2 who were brought to Celebici, had used firearms against
3 the legal forces of the state of Bosnia?
4 A. Let me tell you, figuratively, there was a
5 struggle. We could hear the shots and there were
6 casualties on our side.
7 Q. Well, sir, you would agree with me that it
8 would be a more accurate statement to say that after
9 the military operations in Bradina and Donje Selo,
10 almost all the men were captured and imprisoned, and
11 the sorting out of who participated in the operations
12 and who did not was to take place later; is that a fair
14 A. I wouldn't agree with your statement, not all
15 of them. When you say "all of them," you probably want
16 to imply that we carried out ethnic cleansing. No.
17 When you say "everyone," that implies women and
18 children and the elderly. I absolutely do not agree
19 with your statement.
20 Q. How about if the statement is modified to say
21 men of military age; would you then agree it's a fair
23 A. They were rebels carrying weapons of the
24 Yugoslav People's Army, who had been organised in
25 advance and prepared to carry out such a thing.
1 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that almost all
2 the military-aged men from Bradina and Donje Selo were
3 captured and taken to Celebici?
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness has already
5 answered this question twice as far as he knows. I see
6 no point in asking the question again.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think so. What
8 counsel is asking is whether all men of military age
9 were so taken to the prison. I think that's quite
10 different from what has been said already.
11 Is it true that all those military-aged men
12 were taken to the Celebici prison?
13 A. Your Honours, the military conscripts were
14 considered by us, to be only the citizens of Bosnia and
15 Herzegovina, who recognised the state at the referendum
16 and who, by decision of the presidency of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, joined the Territorial Defence.
18 The Serb rebels did not do so, and I cannot consider
19 them military conscripts. They were military
20 conscripts on the side of the Yugoslav People's Army
21 and the SDS. They were rebels against their own land,
22 against their own state, the one they were born in.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, what happened
24 in Bradina and Donje Selo to those men of military age
25 which were taken to Celebici prison? How did you get
1 to take such men to Celebici prison? This is what
2 counsel is trying to find out because you would have to
3 make a determination about those who you would take to
4 the Celebici prison.
5 A. I wasn't present everywhere, at every trench,
6 at every firing position. Evidently, there was a
7 struggle. The Serb forces were assisted from the air.
8 Our forces were shelled. So all those who put up armed
9 resistance among the rebel forces and who, upon
10 capture, were carrying firearms, it is exclusively
11 those men that were taken into custody.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Does this help your
14 MS. McHENRY:
15 Q. Sir, is it your testimony that only those
16 people, who were carrying firearms when they were
17 captured, were taken into custody; is that your
18 testimony, sir?
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection, Your Honour. The
20 witness has just answered the question.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you kindly answer
22 the question? I think you could. It's a simple,
23 straightforward question.
24 A. Could you please repeat it once again?
25 MS. McHENRY:
1 Q. Sir, is it your testimony that only people
2 who were carrying firearms, when they were captured,
3 were taken into custody?
4 A. Those who upon capture -- there were several
5 ways of capturing people, if you catch him, capture him
6 on the lines, on the front-line, if he is putting up
7 resistance or if he surrendered in his own home where
8 there were weapons. All the weapons were military
9 weapons. According to the formal law, not a single
10 citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the former Yugoslavia
11 was not allowed, to have in his possession, military
12 weapons, and they had, exclusively, weapons of the JNA.
13 Q. Sir, is the answer to my question "yes?"
14 A. The answer to your question is "yes," but
15 with this addition, that also in homes, in houses,
16 because they also had weapons in their houses and on
17 them, so with this addition that I have just made.
18 Q. Thank you. Were there women who were
19 arrested and taken to Celebici?
20 A. I do not know.
21 Q. Sir, you stated that the MUP took the
22 decision to set up Celebici as a prison. Were you
23 present when the decision to set up Celebici was taken?
24 A. Are you thinking of the place where the
25 decision was taken?
1 Q. Yes, sir.
2 A. I was not.
3 Q. How is it you know that it was MUP who took
4 the decision to set up Celebici as a prison?
5 A. I know because I was -- I already said in my
6 statement that it was a technical decision made out of
7 necessity. On the 4th of May already, the MUP building
8 and the building of the TO headquarters was hit by
9 grenades, and the only prison that we had in the 70's
10 and the 80's were two premises in the MUP building.
11 This decision was taken out of necessity, and in this
12 MUP prison, there were also some Muslims.
13 Q. Sir, why don't you please listen to my
14 question. My question was not "Why was the decision
15 taken?" My question was "How do you know that it was
16 the MUP who took the decision?"
17 A. Only the MUP can take such a decision as part
18 of its competence.
19 Q. Now, sir, you would agree with me that the
20 MUP had no jurisdiction over the Celebici barracks,
21 which was a military facility?
22 A. I would not agree with you.
23 Q. Did MUP have jurisdiction over the Celebici
25 A. For a period of time, yes, but not
2 Q. Well, sir, would you agree with me that,
3 prior to any prisoners being placed there, Celebici was
4 considered a military facility and, indeed, one that
5 had been captured by you and others, as members of the
6 TO; is that correct?
7 A. It was considered that this facility of the
8 ex-Yugoslav People's Army had been placed under the
9 control of this state and its bodies, the state of
11 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that prior to
12 prisoners being placed there, the TO had jurisdiction
13 over the Celebici facility, wouldn't you?
14 A. I wouldn't agree with you.
15 Q. Who had authority over it, before prisoners
16 were placed there?
17 A. In my prior statement or, rather, the one I
18 made yesterday, as far as I recall, in the Celebici
19 barracks, after the barracks were taken over with the
20 aim of physical security and accommodation, members of
21 the MUP and units of the HVO police were staying there.
22 Q. Well, sir, are you saying that the TO turned
23 over its authority to the HVO and the MUP?
24 A. I wouldn't put it like that. We didn't think
25 about jurisdiction. Our aim was to gain control over
1 that facility. We were not interested in the least who
2 would provide the security for that facility. There
3 were the legal structures, the MUP and the HVO. Our
4 aim was to gain possession of the material that was
5 essential to us and, of course, to place the whole
6 facility under the control of the new state, the new
8 Q. Thank you. Sir, during its existence from
9 May to November 1992, was Celebici a military prison, a
10 civilian prison, something else?
11 A. The question is not clear. Could you please
12 be more precise?
13 Q. During its existence, between May and
14 November 1992, was Celebici a military prison?
15 A. A military prison, yes, because in a military
16 prison, there were members of the Territorial Defence
17 who did not carry out certain duties. Like, for
18 instance, they didn't go to the front-lines. They
19 abandoned positions and so on and so forth. There were
20 also some members, some citizens of Konjic, who had
21 committed certain criminal offences and for whom the
22 MUP was responsible, so they had to detain them there
23 because there were no courts.
24 Q. Well, with respect to the Serb prisons, were
25 they in a military prison or were they in a civilian
1 prison or was it mixed at the time, and people weren't
2 concerned about jurisdiction or labels?
3 A. All I know is their status. I don't know
4 exactly where they were accommodated. They had the
5 status of prisoners of war.
6 Q. Sir, who was the commander of the Celebici
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. And is it -- am I correct in saying that you
10 don't know who was the commander for the entire period
11 between May and December, 1992?
12 A. That is not how you put the question to me.
13 Let me tell you. For instance, in 1993, the commander
14 of the Celebici barracks was Mr. Sijacic, a former
15 officer of the JNA and a member of the 4th core.
16 Q. Between the period May, 1992, and December,
17 1992, do you know anyone who was commander during that
18 period of the Celebici prison?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Who do you know who was commander at some
21 point between May and December, 1992?
22 A. I don't know who was throughout that period,
23 towards the end of July, I learned that Mr. Pavo Mucic
24 was the director, not the commander.
25 Q. And how did you learn that Mr. Mucic was the
2 A. I learned in the Town of Konjic.
3 Q. You just heard people talking about it, is
4 that correct?
5 A. Would you please repeat the question, I
6 didn't hear it quite.
7 Q. Are you saying that you just heard general
8 people talking about Mucic's role as commander and
9 that's how you learned?
10 A. I learned it in the municipal staff of the
11 Territorial Defence. Purely en person in a
12 conversation. I didn't come to that conclusion at my
14 Q. And who was your conversation with? Who told
15 you that was Mr. Mucic was commander?
16 A. I can't remember. I can't recall exactly.
17 There were many people there.
18 Q. Who was the deputy commander?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Okay. Do you know anyone who worked in
21 Celebici as a guard between May and November, 1992?
22 A. I think I may know one person, his name was
23 Mrndzic, later on he was a member of the 7th Brigade,
24 which I commanded. So I knew him rather well.
25 Q. And he's the only person that you know who
1 worked in Celebici, at any time, between May and
2 November, 1992, besides Mr. Mucic?
3 A. I did not say that it was the only person
4 whom I knew. I also saw some other guys taken out whom
5 I did not know. Once I went to the TO warehouse to
6 look at some 120 millimetre projection. I wanted to
7 see whether the delivery was made in full. It's a
8 large territory, the Municipality in Konjic, I could
9 not know -- 43,000, I could not know everyone.
10 Q. Do you know the names of any persons besides
11 Mr. Mucic and Mr. Mrndzic, who worked in the Celebici
12 prison between May and December, 1992?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Now, sir, you testified that the guards at
15 Celebici were not subordinate to Tactical Group 1 or to
16 the coordinator. Please tell us for the period between
17 May and November, 1992, to whom were the guards
19 A. I said, that at first, members of the
20 ministry of the interior were there, as well as the
21 military police. And later on, there were also members
22 of the TO there. And the members of MUP, as is normal,
23 were subordinate to the chief of police and the HVO
24 members, through the HVO commander and the guards were
25 subordinate to the commander of the municipal staff.
1 So these were three separate chains of command in terms
2 of subordination.
3 Q. When was it that the TO had some role in
4 operating Celebici prison?
5 A. I believed that this happened later on, maybe
6 in October or November. I cannot recall exactly. In
7 November, I was already involved in the establishment
8 of the 7th Brigade.
9 Q. Is it your -- can you be sure, sir, that the
10 TO was not involved in June, July or August? Or don't
11 you know?
12 A. I cannot tell you specifically when. I
13 remember during the course of our activities at
14 headquarters, there were certain forces from an unit
15 called the Konjic 1. I know that guys from that unit
16 went to provide security for the barracks. I don't
17 know exactly what period this was, but I know that it
18 was from that formation that people went, that is
19 certain forces went to provide the security.
20 Q. Well, sir, in July, when you were functioning
21 as the commander of the TO, were the guards in Celebici
22 subordinate to you?
23 A. You mean when I was in the Glavaticevo
25 Q. I mean during the period, when you were
1 functioning as commander of the TO?
2 A. No. I was discharging my duties of the
3 commander, exclusively in the combat activities. I was
4 never in the office. These were combat operations and
5 that was my sole involvement in it, as a commander.
6 Q. Well, sir, if Mr. Ramic was out of the
7 country and you were functioning in his role in part,
8 who in the TO -- to whom in the TO were the guards
9 subordinate to, during that period?
10 A. You are making a statement that I cannot
11 understand at all.
12 Q. Well, sir, am I correct that when Mr. Ramic
13 left, he told you to take over as commander of the TO,
14 is that correct?
15 A. No. Would you want me to quote you, what Mr.
16 Ramic told me through the communications line?
17 Q. Certainly, sir.
18 A. Take over control and command of the combat
20 Q. Sir, do you know who was taking over the
21 command and the control of the other duties of the TO
23 A. The complete activity of the entire
24 headquarters was in the field and that was during the
25 operation at Borci.
1 Q. Sir, do I understand you, that during the
2 operation in Borci, the entire TO staff was in the
3 field and their only duty was combat, is that what
4 you're saying?
5 A. Yes. Out of the -- it was also Mr. Tahirovic
6 and Mr. Kevric who remained in the Town of Konjic from
7 the ranking officers.
8 Q. So was it Mr. Tahirovic and Mr. Kevric who
9 were taking over as TO commander with respect to duties
10 other than combat duties?
11 A. Yes, they had some specific tasks to perform.
12 Q. What were their specific task?
13 A. Mr. Tahirovic was tasked with being
14 constantly present at the communications centre. To
15 review from clients, to coordinate with field
16 commanders. That means the commanders who were in
17 charge of the front lines-- I don't know if you know,
18 but we were, we were engaged in a defence of the town
19 and we held lines from which we did not move. He also
20 was in charge of being in touch with the health centre,
21 regarding the wounded, which would be coming from the
22 field. For instance, so that the searchers would be
23 prepared that blood supplies would be ready because
24 this was a daily need. And to report to us regularly,
25 that is to us in the field, what the situation was on
1 the front lines -- defence lines.
2 And as far as Mr. Sefkija Kevric is
3 concerned, his role was based on the duty that he had,
4 and he was a logistics officer and his activity
5 consisted of -- to look after the resources that we had
6 in our warehouses and depots: dry food, ordinance,
7 equipment. To regularly supply us with this material
8 at Mount Prenj. And in the south eastern area of the
9 municipality in the area of Glavaticevo, together with
10 Mr. Delalic, who was somewhere in the middle of that
11 whole area.
12 Q. So who had responsibility for the Celebici
13 prison, during this time from the TO?
14 A. Personally, at that time, I was -- I did not
15 think about Celebici. Madam, I was in a very difficult
16 surroundings at that time. I had a very responsible
17 role to play. And one wrong assessment, one wrong
18 judgement of me was -- could have cost lives of many
19 young men. And my entire mental activity was focused
20 on that. So, my thoughts were not in Konjic, about
22 Q. Now, sir, if I understand you correctly,
23 during this Borci operation, Mr. Kevric, who was the
24 military logistics officer remained in Konjic and Mr.
25 Delalic became a logistics officer on the front line,
1 is that correct?
2 A. It was not a front line.
3 Q. In the field, but not on the front line?
4 A. The front line was not far off, but in
5 military terms, the front line is just a bit different.
6 Q. You testified yesterday that Mr. Delalic had
7 been asked to participate in this military operation.
8 Who was it who ask Mr. Delalic to participate in these
9 military operations?
10 A. Mr. Esad Ramic.
11 Q. During the time Mr. Delalic was fulfilling
12 these military, did he still have the position as
14 A. Absolutely.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you would agree and you
16 may have already stated, that the prisoners in Celebici
17 were prisoners of war protected under the Geneva
18 convention, applicable to prisoners of war?
19 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, just to be
20 consistent, I'll object the that. That's a legal
21 conclusion and should be made by the Court and not by
22 the witness.
23 MS. McHENRY: I'm sorry, Your Honour I didn't
24 hear you.
25 JUDGE JAN: Put some other question.
1 MS. McHENRY:
2 Q. Sir, was it the opinion of the Bosnia
3 military that the prisoners in Celebici were prisoners
4 of war protected under the Geneva convention,
5 applicable to prisoners of war?
6 MR. MORAN: Same objection, Your Honour.
7 MS. McHENRY: He's entitled to say that. And
8 he's a member of the Bosnia military and can say as a
9 fact whether or not they were so considered.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How did you take those
11 prisoners, which you put in the prisons there? How did
12 you -- what to you is their status?
13 THE WITNESS: I think I have already stated
14 that several times. They were prisoners of war. They
15 were rebels against the country -- the state, their own
17 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.
18 Q. Now, sir, you stated that you and others in
19 Konjic paid heed to respect of human rights and
20 international law. It's true, isn't it, sir, that you
21 issued a written order that any time the Serbs shelled
22 Konjic, you would have a Serb prisoner taken out of the
23 Musala prison and killed?
24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, at this point, I
25 think the Court might want to read this man his rights
1 under Rule 42.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's hear that question
4 MS. McHENRY:
5 Q. Sir, it's true, isn't it, that you issued a
6 written order that any time the Serbs shelled Konjic,
7 you would have a Serb prisoner taken out of the Musala
8 prison and killed?
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Who issued?
10 MS. McHENRY: This witness issued. My
11 question is, did this witness issue a written order to
12 this effect?
13 THE WITNESS: Madam, you first said here and
14 you said specifically, and I quote your words, when --
15 during the -- every shelling, you said, that I said,
16 that we killed some prisoners. In other words, you
17 have just accused me here. You've charged me and I
18 would like to ask the Court to protect me from these
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that true? It's a
21 simple thing.
22 THE WITNESS: This is not true, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's absolute.
24 MS. McHENRY:
25 Q. Sir, am I correct that in June of 1993, you
1 were detained and interviewed by, among other people,
2 Agan Nezir?
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, objection to
4 this question.
5 JUDGE JAN: Credibility.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What are you objecting
7 to a question? If he's not detained, he could say so,
8 and find out whatever answer he gives.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, the problem is
10 not whether somebody was detained or not, all kinds of
11 things happened during the war. It has to do with how
12 the prosecution is using certain documents that under
13 our law cannot be used in these proceedings.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it's a simple
16 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I am prepared to
17 answer this question.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's a simple question.
19 THE WITNESS: Go ahead, please.
20 MS. McHENRY:
21 Q. Sir, is it correct that in June of '93, you
22 were arrested and you subsequently on June 19th of
23 1993, gave a written statement?
24 A. Yes, that segment is correct. I was arrested
25 on 16 June 1993. And I could not really recall when it
1 was that I actually gave the statement.
2 Q. And is it correct, sir, that you stated in
3 your statement, "On one occasion, I even issued a
4 written order and sent it to all the units and
5 commands, even the 4th core command, the war presidency
6 and the exchange commission to the effect that" --
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: To the reading of the
9 statement to him? What is it you're objecting to?
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: My objection is to of using
11 the statement, that according to our law, cannot be
12 used. This was an information interview. This is
13 under seal and it cannot be used against any person who
14 gives them. So, in our law, this cannot be used for --
15 in a court of law. This is something that is given to
16 the police or the investigating magistrate and this is
17 always sealed and this cannot be used and this is
18 the -- this is my objection.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you, we've heard
20 your objection. Counsel.
21 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, sir.
22 Q. Would you like me to start again or just
23 start where I left off?
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Start again.
25 MS. McHENRY:
1 Q. Sir, is it correct that in your written
2 statement, you stated: "On one occasion, I even issued
3 a written order and sent it to all the units and
4 commands, even the 4th core command, the war presidency
5 and the exchange commission, to the effect that, for
6 every shell fired from the aggressor's positions, I
7 would take out a Chetnik from the Musala detention
8 centre and kill him, for which I had, in fact,
9 appointed a group. After issuing this order,
10 representatives of the 4th core arrived in Konjic and
11 prevented me from doing this." Is that what you
12 stated, sir, in June of 1993?
13 A. I never stated anything of that kind in June
14 of 1993. And all information interviews which were
15 conducted on this topic were -- never concerned this
17 Q. If I may have the usher's assistance?
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is his answer to
19 your question.
20 MS. McHENRY: I am going to show him a
21 statement and see if he recognises his signature.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think it makes a
23 difference even if he did.
24 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, I certainly
25 want to have this statement introduced as impeachment,
1 so Your Honours can evaluate his credibility. And I
2 think to do that, I have to at least have him recognise
3 his signature. If Your Honours wish me to seek to have
4 it introduced without having him recognise his
5 signature, I can do that. But I certainly think I am
6 entitled, for purposes of evaluating his credibility,
7 to have this statement introduced, solely for purposes
8 of impeachment, not for any other reason.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Impeachment on what
11 MS. McHENRY: Impeachment on his ability to
12 tell the truth, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Of the structure of the
14 (indiscernible) organisation.
15 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, I certainly
16 believe --
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You know what evidence
18 he's been giving.
19 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour and I believe
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't see the sense in
22 it. Actually, it depends on someone who gives evidence
23 on opinions or things which are not so recorded --
24 which are not authenticated in any other way. But when
25 the evidence is given all along, noted and accepted and
1 not even disputed, I don't think you need, but it's
2 your position to pursue whatever method you like, but
3 it doesn't make any difference.
4 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honour. And I
5 will point out there are some things that this witness
6 says that are undisputed, but there are some things he
7 stated that are certainly disputed by us and I am going
8 to seek to introduce this for purposes of evaluating
9 his credibility.
10 Q. Sir, have you had a chance to look at that
11 document and can you tell us whether or not that's your
12 signature on the document?
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we would like
14 to see the original document. We have just received
15 some copies of it here.
16 MS. McHENRY: Well, at this point, I don't
17 believe the original is necessary. If this witness
18 recognises his signature, it's not necessary that we
19 have an original. And I will just remind Your Honours
20 that throughout this proceeding, persons including
21 large numbers of defence witnesses have authenticated
22 documents by using copies and statements.
23 Q. Sir, do you recognise your signature on that
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection the witness has --
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Witness is here, he can
2 say what he wants to say.
3 THE WITNESS: I recognise the signature only
4 on the back page. And during the investigation against
5 me, I never signed any of the records on multiple
7 MS. McHENRY:
8 Q. Your Honour, at this point I tender the
9 document -- I don't know the number?
10 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked
11 Prosecutor exhibit 240.
12 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: I object to admission of this
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- Notes the objection.
16 MS. McHENRY:
17 Q. Now, sir, how many times, approximately,
18 between May and December, 1992, were you in the
19 Celebici barracks?
20 A. I was there, it was the first time, I can't
21 remember the exact date, with Mr. Kevric, to visit a
22 warehouse and to see whether the material we had
23 received were adequate. I was there during the
24 swearing in ceremony. That's as far as I can recall.
25 I may have been on other occasions too, but I remember
1 this swearing in. And in connection with the TO
2 warehouse, where logistics officers and drivers would
3 go often and also in the month of April, when we took
4 over control of the facility.
5 Q. Well, sir, you were in Celebici in the end of
6 May, beginning of June, 1992 when prisoners were being
7 brought into the camp and being beaten, weren't you?
8 JUDGE JAN: And were being beaten, first put
9 in they were beaten.
10 MS. McHENRY:
11 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that you were in
12 Celebici at some time around the end of May or
13 beginning of June, 1992 when prisoners were being
14 brought into the camp?
15 A. I don't remember.
16 Q. Sir, do you remember being in Celebici on one
17 occasion when prisoners were being beaten?
18 A. I never saw that and I was not in a position
19 to see it there.
20 Q. Sir, if you know, what was done to ensure
21 that the persons who worked in Celebici understood the
22 need to treat prisoners humanely?
23 JUDGE JAN: Was it his responsibility to
24 teach them?
25 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I didn't ask him
1 if it was his responsibility.
2 JUDGE JAN: Well, ask him that.
3 MS. McHENRY: Even if it wasn't his
4 responsibility, he still might know since he was a
5 member of the joint command and the TO staff. First of
6 all, I would just like to ask if he knows and then I
7 can ask if it was his responsibility.
8 Q. Sir, do you know if anything was done to
9 ensure that the persons who worked in Celebici
10 understood the need to treat the prisoners humanely?
11 A. I think, that I said, that there was an order
12 by the joint command to members of the military
13 investigations commission having to do with correct
14 treatment in the process of presenting evidence, that
15 no coercion should be used and so on. Such an order
16 was drafted and signed by both of the people in charge.
17 Q. That order was sent to the coordinator,
18 Mr. Delalic, wasn't it also?
19 A. I don't know. I know that it was sent to
20 members of the military investigations commission.
21 MS. McHENRY: Can I just ask that the witness
22 be shown Defence Exhibit 145-A5D-18? Just before the
23 Registrar does, can I see it first to make sure it's
24 the right document? Yes, it is.
25 Q. Sir, does that refresh your recollection as
1 to whether or not the order that you've just referred
2 to was sent to Mr. Delalic, as coordinator?
3 JUDGE JAN: Is that his order signed by him?
4 MS. McHENRY: It's not signed by him, but he
5 has just testified about it, Your Honour. In fact, he
6 testified --
7 JUDGE JAN: How would he know it was sent to
8 the coordinator? This document is not signed by him.
9 Somebody has sent some document to a coordinator. How
10 can he say it was really sent?
11 MS. McHENRY: Well, he can certainly say it
12 was directed to and, in fact, he has just stated that
13 it was directed to the investigation committee. In the
14 same way he can testify that it was sent to the
15 military investigation committee, I assume he can state
16 if --
17 Q. Sir, was this document directed to
18 Mr. Delalic as coordinator?
19 A. With all due respect, Madam, the content of
20 this text does not apply to the detainees in Celebici.
21 Q. I'm sorry, sir. When you just were referring
22 to a document that was signed by Mr. Ramic and
23 Mr. Zebic, about how interrogations were conducted.
24 Are you talking about a different document than this?
25 A. If you understood me well, I did not say that
1 the document was written in the joint command as to how
2 they would be conducted. That is what you said. I
3 know that a document was written exclusively to the
4 military investigations commission regarding their
5 interviews and interrogations, that they have to be
6 correct, they should not resort to force and so on, but
7 this document, this document refers to the military
8 operation of Bradina. This was probably obtained
9 through intelligence.
10 Q. I'm sorry, sir, you're indicating that there
11 was a different document, not the one that has just
12 been shown to you dated 15th of June, 1992, that was
13 written and given to the military investigations
14 commission; correct?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. It's your testimony that this document dated
17 15th of June, 1992 had nothing to do with the prisoners
18 in Celebici; is that correct?
19 A. It has nothing to do with them, according to
20 the contents, according to the wording. Would you
21 allow me to comment on this text?
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How do you expect him to
23 give you details of a document --
24 MS. McHENRY:
25 Q. Let me just ask that. Sir, this document
1 before you, is this a document that you drafted or that
2 you saw in June of 1992?
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The document has been
4 shown to --
5 A. I'm not talking about this document. I see
6 this document for the first time.
7 MS. McHENRY:
8 Q. Am I correct that this document, is a
9 document, that you did not draft and that you never saw
10 in June of 1992; correct?
11 JUDGE JAN: That's what he says. He said he
12 saw it for the first time now. That's what he said.
13 The second question you're asking is not right.
14 A. But in a statement I said, that I
15 participated in the drafting of documents on behalf of
16 the joint command linked to security of persons,
17 property and areas inhabited by citizens of Serb
18 ethnicity. One such document, I drew up personally,
19 linked to the protection --
20 Q. Sir, I think you have testified about that
21 document and I believe, in fact, Ms. Residovic even
22 showed it to you. I don't think we need you to repeat
24 Sir, other than the document that you've just
25 referred to, that we don't have, that was drafted for
1 the military investigation committee, are you aware of
2 any measures taken to ensure that the guards at
3 Celebici understood the need to treat the prisoners
5 JUDGE JAN: The question is not clear. Did
6 you draft any document directing the guards how they
7 should treat the prisoners?
8 A. No, I personally did not. That is not my
9 responsibility. My job description is quite
10 different. I'm not working in the security sector.
11 MS. McHENRY:
12 Q. Is it correct then, sir, that you have no
13 idea whether or not any measures were taken to instruct
14 the guards in Celebici?
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think he has
16 made such a claim.
17 JUDGE JAN: He said he had nothing to do with
18 the security. He just said that. How does your next
19 question arise?
20 MS. McHENRY: Because he has testified at
21 great length, in direct, about various things,
22 including who the detainees in Celebici were and how
23 they were treated, and I think I'm allowed to ask him
25 JUDGE JAN: That has nothing to do with how
1 the prisoners were to be treated by the guards, the
2 instructions in regard to that. How are the two
3 related, the question you're asking and what his
4 position was? He says he had nothing to do with the
5 security; therefore, he had nothing to do with the
6 prison. So how would he know what instructions were
7 given to the guards?
8 MS. McHENRY:
9 Q. Sir, is it correct that you had nothing to do
10 with the Celebici prison?
11 A. Absolutely not. I have given a very brief
12 description of what it was I was supposed to do.
13 Q. Sir, let me move on. Do you know anything
14 about who, if anyone, arranged for the visits of the
15 Red Cross to the Celebici camp?
16 JUDGE JAN: First ask him, does he know about
17 the visit of the Red Cross -- you asked the second
18 question but you omitted the first question. Does he
19 know about the visit of the Red Cross to the camp?
20 MS. McHENRY:
21 Q. Sir, do you know whether or not the Red Cross
22 ever visited the Celebici camp?
23 A. I heard that an international organisation
24 did go to Celebici. I heard something to that effect.
25 I don't know the name of the organisation and I don't
1 know why they went, really. I just heard that they
2 went to inform themselves.
3 Q. Sir, during the time you were in the TO, did
4 you ever see any orders signed by Mr. Delalic,
5 regarding Celebici?
6 A. No, I never did.
7 Q. And that would include any orders from
8 Mr. Delalic that -- well, let me just go on. Sir, did
9 you ever see at any time between May and November 1992
10 any orders or any decisions from the war presidency
11 regarding Celebici?
12 A. I did not.
13 Q. Now, sir, you testified, in direct, about a
14 military investigation committee that had been set up.
15 Were you aware, sir, that Mr. Delalic worked with that
16 committee and gave them various instructions?
17 A. I just know what I have already told you, who
18 were the members of the commission, where they came
19 from, in general terms, and the joint staff did give
20 its signature and everything else. The link to actual
21 instructions, that is something I hear of for the first
23 Q. Now, sir, as a member of the staff, were you
24 aware that after a short period of time in June,
25 Mr. Pajic and other members decided that they could not
1 continue to work in Celebici and wrote a report about
2 the problems in Celebici?
3 A. I'm not aware of that. I only know that
4 Mr. Pajic was withdrawn, to form the military police
5 because he was a former officer of the JNA and he had
6 certain experience in the field. In the meantime, at
7 that time, I was outside Konjic.
8 Q. Well, sir, then if you were outside Konjic, I
9 take it you don't know whether or not Mr. Pajic was
10 still a member of the military investigation committee
11 at the time he was taken to form the military police?
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that supposed to be a
13 question or a comment?
14 JUDGE JAN: You make such a long statement
15 that includes three or four --
16 MS. McHENRY: Okay.
17 Q. Sir, do you know whether or not at the time
18 Mr. Pajic was withdrawn to form the military police, do
19 you know whether or not he was still a member of the
20 military investigation committee?
21 JUDGE JAN: If he was withdrawn, how could he
22 be a member of that commission then?
23 MS. McHENRY:
24 Q. Sir, do you know when Mr. Pajic stopped being
25 a member of the military investigation committee?
1 A. I don't know exactly.
2 Q. Now, sir, in your direct testimony, when
3 speaking about who had authority to release prisoners
4 in Celebici, you reported that some prisoners were
5 released by the military investigation committee. I
6 ask, how do you know that?
7 A. One of my first conversations with a member
8 of the military investigation commission was held in
9 the second half of the month of July, 1992, in the area
10 of Glavaticevo. The gentleman I was talking to was
11 Nusret Sacibovic. Mr. Sacibovic was a member of the
12 war presidency. He was a member of the military
13 investigating commission and he was a member of the
14 ministry of the interior. When the war broke out, he
15 was an inspector.
16 Q. I'm sorry. Is it your testimony that
17 Mr. Sacibovic never mentioned that the committee had to
18 stop its work because of mistreatment?
19 A. No. During that conversation, which lasted
20 about ten minutes, he didn't mention that. He just
21 mentioned that there were some minor disagreements. He
22 didn't mention any major problems and he didn't mention
23 that the commission was to stop working or that the
24 commission had actually stopped working.
25 Q. Do you know why it was that the military
1 investigation committee released certain prisoners? In
2 particular, do you know whether or not it was because
3 it had been determined that they had not participated
4 in any military activities or possessed firearms?
5 A. In my testimony, I have said that during my
6 military training, I never dealt with military
7 investigating commissions, that I was not familiar with
8 the methods used by such investigating bodies, and
9 that's all that I have to say.
10 Q. Were you involved in approving the release of
11 any other prisoners besides the three you mentioned,
12 the two doctors and Mr. Golubovic?
13 A. No, never.
14 Q. When Mr. Tahirovic called you, how did you
15 know that these release forms existed? Had you ever
16 seen them? Let me clarify. At the time that
17 Mr. Tahirovic called you, had you ever seen any release
18 forms for prisoners?
19 A. No, I hadn't ever. I didn't say, when
20 talking to Mr. Tahirovic, that I knew of the existence
21 of these forms.
22 Q. Did you tell him that he should get the forms
23 and send them by courier to your location?
24 A. What I said to Mr. Tahirovic, "If there are
25 any papers, forms or any other documents, send them to
1 me by courier, so that I can sign them." I must point
2 out something that is very important and which was, for
3 me, decisive when taking such a decision.
4 First, the fact that I was told this by
5 Mr. Tahirovic, a member of the staff, a man whom I
6 trust because he was a member of the staff, and he
7 explained to me the specific situation in the town of
8 Konjic with regard to the increase of anti-Serb
9 feeling, when the policemen were killed in the village
10 of Bradina, because I gathered the atmosphere he was
11 living in and I took the decision.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will counsel please go
13 straight to the question because his answer has been
14 stated before during his examination-in-chief?
15 MS. McHENRY:
16 Q. Well, sir, I assume that by telling
17 Mr. Tahirovic about what to do, you recognised the fact
18 that you had authority over Celebici prison such that
19 you could release prisoners; is that correct?
20 A. That is not correct. Your statement is not
22 Q. Well, sir, certainly you would agree that you
23 had authority to release prisoners at this time,
24 wouldn't you?
25 A. I wouldn't agree with that either.
1 Q. Well, then, sir, why was it that you asked
2 Mr. Tahirovic to send you the forms; so that
3 Mr. Golubovic could be released?
4 A. I asked for them simply because there should
5 be some kind of a trace because I'm not familiar with
6 the actual procedure. There must be some documents on
7 the basis of which a person is released, so I was
8 thinking along those lines. There must be something,
9 some paper, so send them to me, so let's get it over
10 with, because this was his own personal friend and a
11 man belonging to the same generation. We grew up in
12 the same street, me and Mr. Miro Golubovic.
13 Q. But you asked him to send in the forms so
14 that you could release Mr. Golubovic; is that correct?
15 A. It was urgent. The situation was specific.
16 I was in a specific situation. I couldn't waste time.
17 Mr. Tahirovic needed to act preventively, in connection
18 with the anti-Serb forces. That is the point. Five
19 policemen were killed in the village of Bradina under
20 unclarified circumstances. The situation was tense in
21 the town itself.
22 Mr. Tahirovic wanted to prevent people taking
23 justice into their own hands, to prevent chaos. You
24 know what chaos means. That would be
25 counterproductive. It would have a negative affect on
1 our own fighters, so on and so forth, and on the
2 citizens of Konjic itself. I must also -- please don't
3 interrupt me. There were Serbs still living in
4 Konjic. Serbs were living there who had obligatory
5 labour, so it was a multi-ethnic town. With my father
6 in the basement was Mr. Nedzo Lojpur.
7 Q. You would agree with me, sir, that you could
8 have just asked Mr. Tahirovic to sign the forms on your
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, listen, we've been
11 for over 15 minutes arguing on matters which are a
12 rationalisation from conduct of the parties. You don't
13 go about asking questions which will not get you
14 anywhere. You ask did you sign the forms, the
15 particular prisoner was released. You don't have to
16 ask further questions.
17 MS. McHENRY:
18 Q. Sir, the second time you were involved in
19 releases, you stated that Dr. Ahmo Jusufbegovic
20 contacted you, when you were in the front-line?
21 A. I'm hearing the French interpretation.
22 JUDGE JAN: You must have pressed the wrong
24 MS. McHENRY:
25 Q. Sir, the second time you were involved in
1 prison releases, you stated that Dr. Ahmo Jusufbegovic
2 contacted you. What did Dr. Jusufbegovic tell you
3 about why the doctors should be released?
4 A. Dr. Ahmo Jusufbegovic did not explain to me
5 why the doctors should be released. That was the first
6 time I heard that Mr. Petko Grubac and Mr. -- I think
7 his surname is -- I can't remember it now, maybe I will
8 later. Dr. Ahmo is a man of repute and he told me that
9 he had heard, and this for him was news too, that they
10 had been detained in Celebici and as a man of prestige,
11 he had tried to intervene, to contact certain
12 structures. He went to the HVO, but he was unable to
13 do anything. This was maybe five or six days after the
14 case of Miro Golubovic. I'm not sure. I was in
15 Glavaticevo at the time.
16 He said that Mr. Zejnil Delalic himself was
17 with him and that he too was appealing for a solution,
18 for a compromise, that these people should be released
19 and that they were ready to continue their professional
20 activities, to continue treating patients.
21 Q. Now, sir, are you aware that in the latter
22 part of November, Mr. Delic took over for Mr. Mucic?
23 A. Could you repeat the question? Which
24 duties? I didn't quite understand.
25 JUDGE JAN: She is now speaking of Delic, not
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,
4 JUDGE JAN: She is now speaking of Delic, not
5 Delalic. She is asking you; are you aware that Delic
6 took over from Mucic as commander of the camp. This is
7 what she's asking you.
8 MS. McHENRY:
9 Q. That is correct, sir.
10 A. In what month? In what period?
11 Q. Let me just ask you, sir, at any period, are
12 you aware that Mr. Delic took over Mr. Mucic's
13 functions as camp commander or camp director?
14 A. No, I'm not aware of it.
15 Q. Sir, was there a time when you had
16 responsibility for any prison camps in Konjic?
17 A. No, never.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will break
19 here and assemble at 12.
20 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.07 p.m.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly find the witness,
24 (The witness entered court)
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Proceed, Ms. McHenry.
1 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Q. Sir, I am correct that in November of 1992,
3 you became commander of the brigade called the Suad
4 Alic Brigade?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And is it your testimony that no part of the
7 Suad Alic Brigade, or police units that were part of
8 that brigade, were ever responsible for any prison camp
9 in Konjic?
10 A. That is not how I put it, the way you stated
12 Q. Well, how would you put it, sir, was there a
13 time when some part of the Suad Alic Brigade had some
14 responsibility for the operation of any prison camp in
16 A. Let me make a distinction for you between the
17 responsibility and competence. Musala was in
18 competence of the 4th core, the sector of military
19 security and myself as a commander, only was tasked
20 with providing security. Whereas, as a commander of
21 the 7th Brigade, I never established the camp.
22 Q. But am I correct that persons under your
23 command were guards at the camp, is that correct?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. Sir, you're aware, aren't you, that in
1 December, and January of 1993, Mr. Delic, Mr. Landzo,
2 Bata Alikadic, Osman Dedic and Sead Surcin were in
3 prison in Celebici?
4 MR. MORAN: Objection, Your Honour, to the
5 relevance of this.
6 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I am not going to
7 get into why they were in prison or anything about
8 that. It's just a foundation because this witness may
9 have had some involvement with the accused related to
10 that. But I will not discuss at all the merits or why
11 they were in prison and I believe it's already in the
12 record that at some point they were imprisoned.
13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, there was a single
14 document, as I recall, that was introduced, as I
15 recall, and that was just to show people's names and
16 ranks and titles and things like that. Whatever
17 occurred involving my client or others after the time
18 of this indictment, I believe is irrelevant and I
19 believe it's surely irrelevant as to this man.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the purpose of
21 the question?
22 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, my next
23 question was to ask whether or not this witness had any
24 direct role in getting the accused released and that's
1 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, what fact of
2 importance to this case does that make more or less
3 likely? It's totally irrelevant.
4 MS. McHENRY: I can explain more, I don't
5 want --
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's not necessary
7 because I don't think it's a relevant issue.
8 MS. McHENRY: Sir --
9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Sir, I have a point
10 regarding the transcript. At page 43 of LiveNote, line
11 17, it says Mr. Delalic, and I understood my learned
12 friend to say Mr. Delic, I believe there's an error
13 there. Could that be confirmed, please.
14 MS. McHENRY: Certainly. I'm sorry, I don't
15 have the LiveNote page, but my last question, certainly
16 had to do with Mr. Delic, not Mr. Delalic. Sir, let
17 me just ask you this --
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for
19 the correction.
20 MS. McHENRY:
21 Q. Sir, let me just ask you this correctly.
22 Were you part of an armed group which illegally
23 released Mr. Delic, Mr. Landzo and some others?
24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, same objection.
25 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe this
1 directly goes to this witness' bias, if, in fact, the
2 information is true.
3 JUDGE JAN: First of all asking if --
4 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I had asked that
5 question and that was objected and I was asked to go on
6 to a more specific question, so I will go back, sir.
7 Q. Sir, you were aware that in January of 1993,
8 Mr. Delic, Mr. Landzo, Mr. Ali Catic, Mr. Dedic and
9 another person were imprisoned in Celebici, weren't
11 MR. MORAN: Same objection, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You want to show some
13 special relationship between the witness and some of
14 the accused persons, this is what you want?
15 MS. McHENRY: That is correct, Your Honour.
16 And this is a foundation question for my next question.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you can ask the
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone counsel.
20 MS. BOLER: (Reporter wrote MR. OLUJIC:) I am
21 going to object at this point also, on behalf of Mr.
22 Landzo, just as well as my learned counsel had done.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the question can
24 be answered.
25 MS. McHENRY: Sir, can you answer the
2 THE WITNESS: I was never a member of what
3 you described as an armed group.
4 MS. McHENRY: You were a member of a group,
5 sir, that had Mr. Delic and Mr. Landzo and the other
6 people released in January of 1993?
7 A. In January of 1993, I was commander of a
8 brigade, I was not a member of a group.
9 Q. Well, sir, as a member of the brigade, did
10 you participate in a group that forcibly had Mr.
11 Landzo, Mr. Delic and some other people released from
13 JUDGE JAN: When you are talking about a
14 group, he was a brigade commander. I don't know what
15 you mean by the group. You say that the brigade
16 commander, ask him as a brigade commander so he can --
17 MS. McHENRY:
18 Q. Sir, in any function whatsoever, in January
19 1993, did you play a role of having Mr. Landzo and Mr.
20 Delic released from imprisonment?
21 A. No, never.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MS. BOLER: Excuse me, I don't know if this
24 is the proper time, but I have noticed that also
25 there's an error like Mr. O'Sullivan has pointed out in
1 46 line 9, when I made an objection on behalf of Mr.
2 Landzo, Mr. Landzo's name was not mentioned and also
3 instead of my name, Nancy Boler, as the person who made
4 the objection, they've written Mr. Olujic's they have
5 written Mr. Olujic's name. That was 46.
6 JUDGE JAN: Yes, we can see it. Mr. Olujic
7 was entirely innocent.
8 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, they still have on
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it will be
13 MS. McHENRY: Sir, was Mr. Esad Landzo ever
14 part of the Suad Alic Brigade or police units that were
15 part of the brigade?
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the witness,
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Correct the witness'
19 microphone now.
20 THE WITNESS: There's a sector in the
21 brigade, which is called an organisation mobilisation
22 affairs centre and they have lists of men. As the
23 commander of the brigade, I was not in a position to
24 memorise 1400 names that were there.
25 Q. Sir, do I take it that you have no knowledge
1 about whether or not Mr. Esad Landzo was ever a part of
2 the Suad Alic Brigade?
3 A. Not only do I do not know whether there was
4 Esad Landzo there, but there may have been a number of
5 persons named Esad Landzo.
6 Q. Sir, are you aware of more than one person in
7 Konjic being named Esad Landzo?
8 A. I believe you misunderstood me when I said,
9 when I said other Esad Landzo's, I meant other names
10 and other people and there are several Landzos. I know
11 exactly where the family came from and I know them.
12 It's a large family, there's quite a few of them.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would the witness say
14 that he can't vouch for whether the accused person or
15 any other persons of that name, only persons for that
16 matter, he's a member of his brigade.
17 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why don't you go on to
19 some other question.
20 MS. McHENRY: Certainly, Your Honour, given
21 that he, as I understood, he misspoke in his answer, I
22 think I was allowed to clarify that, but I am certainly
23 going to move on.
24 Q. Sir, since you left Konjic, you have been in
25 contact with Mr. Delalic on different occasions,
1 haven't you?
2 A. Yes, that was the nature of work and the
3 nature of his duties and my needs. And it had to do
4 with the work that I have with Mr. Kevric.
5 Q. Sir, maybe my question wasn't clear, or let
6 me just -- in case it's not. Sir, after he left Bosnia
7 in the end of 1992, since he's been outside of Bosnia,
8 you have continued to be in contact with Mr. Delalic on
9 different occasions, haven't you?
10 A. To maintain contact, linguistically speaking,
11 means to exchange information and I was in no position
12 to do that. In fact, what I did with the citizen,
13 Zejnil Delalic, and I believe this was maybe '94 or
14 '95, I just sent a few letters by certain persons,
15 different persons who were travelling to Austria and
16 Germany and in terms of exchanging information into
17 letters and telephone conversations that we were not
18 able to have.
19 Q. Well, sir, you would agree with me that in
20 discussing your needs, in your letter, in one of your
21 letters to Mr. Delalic, you suggested that he could
22 provide you with some money, is that correct?
23 A. Let me correct you again on this point. We
24 did not talk. I may have written something to him and
25 I am not even sure whether any of these letters have
1 reached him because I never had any contact with him.
2 Contact was impossible, technically speaking it was.
3 That is through -- by telephone.
4 Q. Sir, do you remember in your letter to Mr.
5 Delalic, did you suggest that he should give you some
7 A. I believe that I may have written the first
8 letter after I was seriously wounded. This was -- I
9 was in a special kind of a mental and physical state at
10 the time. If I were to be shown this letter, I may be
11 able to confirm it for you.
12 Q. May I have the usher's assistance.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution document 241.
14 MS. McHENRY:
15 Q. Sir, let me just direct your attention to the
16 very end of the letter, the third to last paragraph.
17 Sir, does this letter refresh your recollection as to
18 whether or not you suggested that Mr. Delalic should
19 provide you with some money?
20 A. Let me read you exactly what I had written.
21 Here it says, let him send me those pills for
22 headache. In other words, medication. And this is in
23 the next sentence, when I say, and if he were to send
24 some money, I would not be "angry." And it is just a
25 local Bosnian way of putting things.
1 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Your Honours, I
2 would request that his prior statement, that he gave to
3 the Defence, that was previously marked be admitted
4 for, solely for purposes of impeachment.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection, Your Honour.
6 There's nothing impeachable here.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You want this also? You
8 want this also in the last portion, which you rely upon
9 if that is --
10 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, just for purposes
11 of completeness, we would, although I had not yet done
12 it, we would also ask what this letter be admitted into
13 evidence also. So I would be asking that this letter
14 be admitted and that his prior statement to the
15 Defence, which was previously shown to him, for
16 purposes of impeachment, but had not technically been
17 offered into evidence, I would be seeking to have both
18 of those admitted into evidence.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour --
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the purpose of
21 this? What are you impeaching?
22 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, with respect to
23 this last letter, since he's admitted exactly what he's
24 said, the prosecution thought you might want it for
25 purposes of completeness, but if you don't feel it's
1 necessary, we won't be pressing the matter. We would,
2 however, be seeking, so if Your Honours don't believe
3 it's helpful to have this letter, we won't be seeking
4 its admission. We would be seeking the admission of
5 his prior statement to the Defence, which we show him
6 in examination. It's marked 239. The previous
7 statement in that, we would be certainly seeking for
8 admission because it did impeach this witness.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: We raise an objection and we
10 believe that it is not a basis for impeachment. And as
11 far as the second document, we believe that there's no
12 basis for admission of the second document, thank you.
13 MS. BOLER: Our objection is similar and that
14 this letter -- this statement has not been properly
15 authenticated until we object to its admission on that
16 ground. In addition, the witness has denied making
17 that statement.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it's a fair
19 request, there's nothing to impeach him. It couldn't
20 be admitted for any purpose really.
21 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I accept your
22 ruling on this letter. We would be seeking, though,
23 separately to have his prior statement, Exhibit 239,
24 which I believe the witness did agree, contradicted his
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay.
2 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honour, I have
3 no further questions.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, any
5 re-examination? The last circled exhibit is not being
6 admitted. There's no basis for it really.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: I hope, Your Honour, that the
8 statement has not been admitted either because we
9 objected at the time and there was no contradiction as
10 we saw during the examination.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: 241, that is not being
12 admitted, but 239 is. Is there any re-examination?
13 Because counsel has gone through the
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very briefly, Your Honours
16 Re-examination by Ms. Residovic:
17 Q. Mr. Cerovac, the Prosecutor read to you and
18 showed you a statement, which was used in the course of
19 the criminal proceedings against you. Can you tell the
20 court whether the proceedings have ended and how?
21 A. Yes, the proceedings have been terminated and
22 I was acquitted of the charges.
23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Cerovac, you have also been
24 asked how you knew that people were carrying arms.
25 Tell me, please, whether you and the staff had seized
1 weapons in the homes of the people captured, military
3 A. In answer to the first part of your question,
4 by nature of my job and my training, I knew all the
5 types of weapons used by the former JNA.
6 Q. I'm sorry, maybe you didn't understand my
7 question. I didn't ask you how you knew about the
8 weapons, my question is, were weapons found and
9 surrendered to the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
10 Were weapons found and seized and handed over to the
11 forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
12 A. On the people captured, yes. It was an
13 enormous quantity of weapons, there were about 700
14 barrels of automatic and semi-automatic rifles. And
15 there were some 82 millimetre mortars and some
16 communications equipment. Thank you.
17 Q. You were also asked in connection with the
18 Split Brigade, so could you please, if you can recall,
19 tell the Court whether you know when that brigade
20 arrived and when it left Konjic? You spoke about its
21 composition during your examination in chief?
22 A. The mountain brigade arrived in the second
23 half of April and left in the first half of May to the
24 area of Hercnica (phoen).
25 Q. Mr. Cerovac, during the cross-examination,
1 with regard to the subordination of parts of the combat
2 units of Konjic to Tactical Group 1, my learned friend
3 used several different English terms, so in order to
4 clarify this, these terms may have different meanings,
5 so my question is, could you tell the Court, when the
6 Gijret unit or another unit was transferred to be
7 subordinated to Tactical Group 1 or 2; for how long was
8 it under the command of the commanders of Tactical
9 Groups 1 and 2?
10 A. A unit, which is in principal being
11 subordinated to a Tactical Group, is subordinated for
12 the duration of a certain temporary assignment. When
13 the command of the Tactical Groups finds that that unit
14 is necessary or unnecessary for the continuation of the
15 task, when it is found to be unnecessary, the unit is
16 returned to the municipal staff within the original
17 structure, but the municipal staff never eliminates it
18 from its structure.
19 Q. When that unit returns, as, for instance, the
20 Gijret unit from its combat assignment, who is it
21 subordinated to, upon its return to Konjic? Which is
22 its superior command?
23 A. The municipal staff of the Territorial
25 Q. Mr. Cerovac, was there ever a unit, a part of
1 a unit or a unit, an individual, a soldier from Konjic
2 who was permanently subordinated to the commander of
3 Tactical Group 1, regardless of whether at the time it
4 was Mr. Polutak or Mr. Delalic?
5 A. No, never.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I
7 have no further questions.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I
9 think that this is all we have for Mr. Cerovac. Thank
10 you very much for your assistance and for your
11 resilience. We are grateful for your assistance to the
12 Trial Chamber. Thank you very much. You are
14 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, may I be allowed
15 to say a couple of words and to address you
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the witness was
19 hurt by some questions put by Ms. McHenry, but I don't
20 think it's necessary for us to go into that again. He
21 has already reacted to the question, so I would suggest
22 that he would not -- he not address the court. But if
23 you grant him permission, he may say it again. He
24 understood questions to mean that he was being charged
25 by this court.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, I think there is
2 nothing after the questions have been asked and
3 answered. I think that is all. It is only meant for
4 the proceedings here. It's not a personal matter.
5 You're merely a witness in these proceedings and
6 nothing more, so have no fears at all. Thank you very
8 THE WITNESS: My integrity has been affected.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, it hasn't been. The
10 proceedings are very clear. The re-examination was
11 very clear. You were acquitted on this charge and that
12 is the end of this matter and you remain a gentleman
13 and a soldier. Thank you very much for your
14 assistance. Thank you. You are discharged now.
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
16 (The witness withdrew)
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I have a
18 request to make. Our next witness is ready, but as I
19 have already told you, Dr. Hadzihuseinovic is an
20 important witness. I didn't know how long the
21 cross-examination of this witness would take. I have
22 quite a large number of documents, so I would ask that
23 I can begin with the examination after the break so
24 that it could be done efficiently. If I may, I would
25 be grateful, if not, I shall start, but I think it
1 would be more expeditious if I were allowed to start
2 the examination after the break.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You mean asking him
4 questions on what you indicated was your line of
5 examination? Is that complicated? Asking questions
6 about the municipal authority and the question about
7 the coordinator and the like, do you think that that's
8 complicated that you cannot start. You can start and
9 then we will have the break and then you can continue.
10 JUDGE JAN: You can start with the
11 preliminaries, asking him his name, what his position
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think you have
14 too many problems.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: I can start. The witness is
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In 20 minutes, you will
18 have the break and you can arrange the rest. Please
19 kindly invite the witness.
20 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, may I raise a
21 matter in relation to this witness,
22 Dr. Hadzihuseinovic. It was my intention to
23 cross-examine this witness at the conclusion of his
24 examination-in-chief. Unfortunately, I have a
25 commitment, in another matter, in another chamber, and
1 will involve me in that chamber tomorrow morning and on
2 Friday morning.
3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I'm not sure Ms. Residovic
4 cannot hear what my friend is saying because she must
5 hear it through interpretation.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may continue.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Could you please repeat what
8 you said because I now have the headphones and I can
10 MR. NIEMANN: I'm sorry. I didn't realise
11 that Ms. Residovic didn't have her headphones on. I'm
12 just making an application for Your Honours indulgence
13 in relation to this witness who it was my intention to
14 cross-examine. I am committed to another matter
15 tomorrow morning and Friday morning which, if this
16 witness goes longer than today, would impact upon my
17 ability to cross-examine him, which was what my
18 intention was. Unfortunately, in the other matter, I
19 need to be in that chamber at least tomorrow and the
20 next day. I don't need to be there this afternoon,
21 even though it's sitting, but I will need to be there
22 on Thursday and Friday, in the mornings certainly. If
23 this witness, Dr. Hadzihuseinovic has not completed his
24 evidence by the end of today, then I'll be in
25 difficulties in terms of cross-examining him if it was
1 to continue tomorrow morning and my application, Your
2 Honours, is to ask your indulgence to permit another
3 witness to be deposed in the morning so that the
4 cross-examination could take place in the afternoon,
5 tomorrow afternoon, assuming his evidence in chief is
6 completed today. If it's not, then evidence in chief
7 continuing tomorrow afternoon and then Friday
8 afternoon. I can indicate to Your Honours that based
9 on what I know or anticipate his testimony to be, I
10 would hope to complete my cross-examination certainly
11 in an afternoon and hopefully in the space of a couple
12 of hours. I would endeavour to do all I could to
13 tailor any cross-examination to come within that time.
14 I regret, Your Honours, that I have to do this but
15 unfortunately, the scheduling of the cases is such that
16 it has created this difficulty for me.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is very difficult for
18 the Trial Chamber to reschedule any cases at all. He
19 has been fixed to be deposed. The witness is here. I
20 suppose -- so I don't know when it's necessary for you
21 to cross-examine, read the transcripts and then do
22 that, but definitely we have no intention of
23 rescheduling any witness's testimony because it's more
24 critical for us to continue as we have scheduled than
25 any other Trial Chamber.
1 MR. NIEMANN: Well, Your Honours, that's my
2 application, and if Your Honours are going to decline
3 it, then fine.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We certainly would not
5 accept it. We reject the application.
6 Call your witness.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I
8 call Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic.
9 (The witness entered court)
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we swear the
11 witness, please?
12 THE WITNESS: In the name of God, the
13 merciful, I solemnly declare that I will speak the
14 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may sit down.
16 Take your seat.
17 RUSMIR SAFET HADZIHUSEINOVIC
18 Examined by Ms. Residovic
19 Q. Good day, sir. Will you please introduce
20 yourself to the court and tell us your full name?
21 A. My name is Rusmir Safet Hadzihuseinovic.
22 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, before I proceed with
23 questions, I should like to warn you, like I have done
24 with all our witnesses, of a technical matter, namely,
25 both of us speak the same language, and it would be
1 easy for us to -- for me to ask the questions and for
2 you to answer them immediately. But as every word we
3 say has to be interpreted and has to go down in the
4 transcript and be understood by everyone in this
5 courtroom, the Trial Chamber in the first place, I
6 would like to ask you to listen to the interpretation
7 on the set of headphones on the table. You will hear
8 the end of the interpretation. You can turn on the
9 volume and when you no longer hear the interpretation,
10 only then answer my question, please. In that way,
11 everyone in the courtroom will be able to follow. Have
12 you understood these instructions, Dr. Hadzihuseinovic?
13 A. Yes. I understand fully.
14 Q. Thank you very much. Dr. Hadzihuseinovic,
15 will you tell me, please, when and where you were born,
16 what is your ethnic origin and your citizenship?
17 A. I was born on the 23rd of May, 1947 in
18 Konjic. My citizenship is Bosniak.
19 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, what schools have you
20 graduated from and what is your profession and what is
21 your speciality?
22 A. I graduated from secondary school in Konjic,
23 the school of medicine in Belgrade and I specialised in
24 urology in Niche and Belgrade, so my speciality is
1 Q. Have you served in the former JNA, Doctor?
2 A. No, I have not.
3 Q. Where have you worked as a doctor?
4 A. My first employment was in Konjic and after
5 that I also worked in Serbia for about seven years and
6 I spent some time working abroad too. From 1986, I
7 have been working permanently in Konjic.
8 Q. Dr. Hadzihuseinovic, did you become
9 politically active in the period before the war?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. As a political activist, did you participate
12 as a candidate at any elections, and if so which?
13 A. Yes, as a candidate of the party of
14 democratic action, SDA, at the first multi-party and
15 democratic elections held in 1990.
16 Q. What was your political function in the SDA
17 at the time?
18 A. At that time, I held the position of
19 president of the SDA for Konjic municipality.
20 Q. Will you please tell the court, very briefly,
21 who won at the elections and how the authorities were
22 structured after those elections and how the government
23 was established?
24 A. Yes, I shall be very brief. The SDA party
25 won and in the newly established municipal assembly of
1 Konjic, which consisted of 60 deputies, the SDA had 28
2 seats, the HDZ 14, the Serb democratic party, the
3 SDS 9, and all the other parties 9.
4 Q. Thank you. What position were you assigned
5 to after the elections?
6 A. After the elections, by decision of the
7 municipal assembly of Konjic, that is all the deputies
8 in the assembly, I was democratically elected president
9 of the municipal assembly of Konjic.
10 Q. In view of the fact that at the time you
11 discharged the functions you have described, will you
12 tell us, did Zejnil Delalic participate in those
13 Parliamentary elections?
14 A. Not as far as I know because he was abroad at
15 the time.
16 Q. After those elections in 1990, was Zejnil
17 Delalic elected to any state bodies in Konjic?
18 A. Absolutely not.
19 Q. Later on in 1992, was Zejnil Delalic
20 nominated or elected as a member of any state organ in
22 A. Absolutely not.
23 Q. As president of the SDA party for Konjic
24 municipality, do you know whether Zejnil Delalic was a
25 member of the SDA of Konjic or the SDA of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the party of democratic action of
3 A. No, because the SDA party of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have its branches abroad.
5 That was not legally possible.
6 Q. Do you know whether Zejnil Delalic, in 1992,
7 was a member of any other political party?
8 A. As far as I know, he was not a member of any
9 political party.
10 Q. Did Zejnil Delalic perform any political
11 function in 1992, in Konjic?
12 A. No, absolutely not.
13 Q. Did Zejnil Delalic, during the first
14 multi-party elections, assist those elections and
15 assist the elected authorities in one way or another?
16 A. Yes. Mr. Delalic supported, financially, the
17 new democratic forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina, only
19 Q. Did he make a gift to the municipal assembly
20 of Konjic?
21 A. Yes, as far as I can recall, a jeep was
22 bought for the needs of the municipal assembly of
23 Konjic. I think also a typewriter.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, in view of
25 these answers by the witness, I should like to show the
1 witness a number of documents contained in the
2 supporting material of the expert witness, so could I
3 please have five minutes to get those documents, as I
4 have not prepared them yet, or may I do that after the
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will
7 now rise and assemble at 2.30.
8 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.55 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.
2 (The witness entered court)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may continue, Ms.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind the witness he's
7 under oath.
8 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
9 are still under oath.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC:
11 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, good afternoon, I hope
12 you were able to take some rest. I would now like to
13 the registrar to help me show the Prosecutors Exhibit
14 No. 99/7 -- 2. I have copies, so that we can
15 facilitate a communication here. Here are the copies,
16 which can be provided for both the Trial Chamber and
17 the Prosecution. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, would you please
18 review these documents. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, have you
19 ever seen this document before?
20 A. No. I have never seen this document before.
21 I see it for the first time now.
22 Q. As the president of SDA in Konjic in 1992,
23 can you tell me whether this document represents, a
24 copy of a membership card, of an SDA member?
25 A. This document does not represent a membership
1 card of a SDA member -- a Bosnia SDA member.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, can the
3 document please be returned to the registrar. With the
4 usher's assistance, I would now like to show the
5 witness a document from D-136. This will be from the
6 supporting material of the expert witness report and
7 this would be in D-35. I have sufficient copies for
8 both the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution. Again,
9 just to facilitate the matters. Sir, I believe that
10 you can see that this document was produced in Vienna,
11 so I am not going to ask you to testify to its
12 authenticity, but I would like you to read the body of
13 text, of the certificate. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, do you
14 know that in Vienna there was an association of the
15 Muslim/Bosnian culture circle which was active at that
17 A. Yes, I have heard of its activity.
18 Q. Thank you, this document can also be returned
19 now. Now I would like to request that the witness be
20 shown --
21 JUDGE JAN: Even if it is held that he is a
22 member of SDA, how it connects him with the Celebici
23 camp? Let's confine ourselves to the role played by Mr.
24 Zenu (phoen) in the war presidency, if there was any,
25 his associations with the Celebici camp, if any. We're
1 concerned with the Celebici camp, we're not concerned
2 with his other activities at all. The membership of
3 the SDA will not necessarily mean that he has
4 involvement in the setting up of the Celebici camp.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Whether his membership
6 creates an offence, I don't know. Whether that he's a
7 member of that organisation makes any difference.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, you should ask
9 this question of the Prosecution because they offered
10 it into evidence. They said that they found it in the
11 Vienna documents and that they had asked someone and
12 that it proves the position of superiority. All I want
13 to find out from this witness is whether this was a
14 fact or not. So this is the evidence that were already
15 produced before.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, definitely it
17 leads to nowhere.
18 JUDGE JAN: You asked him about his role in
19 the war presidency, if there was any. His connections
20 in the Celebici camp, if there was any. These are the
21 questions relevant for us. Membership of SDA is really
22 irrelevant in this regard. I may be a member of SDA,
23 but still I have nothing to do with Celebici. I may
24 not be a member of the SDA, I may still have a role to
25 play in that. So let's confine ourselves to this.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I am very glad
2 that this is your thinking, but since the Prosecution
3 has produced the documents that I am referring to now,
4 will you please allow me to ask that through this
5 witness, about these documents. But this is the part
6 of the backbone of this allegation, of the
7 Prosecution's allegation that this authenticates his
8 responsibility, his superiority. And now I would like
9 to ask for another document. It is in D-34 and it is
10 Exhibit No. 136. And again, I have enough copies for
11 the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC:
13 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, I am not going to ask
14 you to authenticate this document, however, if you had
15 read its contents, since you've already answered part
16 of my questions, regarding the contents, can you just
17 tell the Court whether the contents of these documents
18 is truthful, with regard to your personal knowledge of
20 A. Yes, that is correct, the contents of these
21 documents are fully truthful in full measure of its
23 Q. Since this witness has confirmed the
24 authenticity of this document with respect to the
25 events that it covers in 1992 and on the basis of its
1 relevance, I tender it into evidence.
2 MR. NIEMANN: We object, Your Honour.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to Judge.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: To say that he has read
5 a letter saying certain things. That's what he's just
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, before the
8 break, I have asked all these questions of the witness,
9 whether he was a member of the SDA, whether the jeep
10 was purchased with it. And now he has reviewed the
11 letter and he has confirmed it. He says that they
12 pertain to the events from 1992.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's not his letter, he
14 didn't write it, is it? He didn't write this letter?
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: He is confirming its
16 truthfulness and I believe that this is relevant and so
17 on the basis of its relevance, I am tendering it.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How does it relate? His
19 evidence is sufficient to what he must have said about
20 Delalic and his membership. For him now to say that
21 this is own evidence, a letter which you are now trying
22 to tender through him, it's a letter -- he couldn't do
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I hope that you
25 will apply the same standard for some other additional
1 evidence that may be turned in because --
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I have told you, he's
3 not the right person to tender this letter. And don't
4 say I am applying a different standard. If you do not
5 understand the procedure, you say so. I have not said
6 anything different than that he cannot tender this
7 letter. He's not the author. And there's no way he
8 could authenticate it. And then you say, one is
9 applying a different standard. That's all you've been
10 referring in all you've been saying and I don't like
11 it. I never apply different standards. I have no
12 personal interest in any of these things. It's only
13 professional responsibility, I am just charging you.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Based on my professional
15 ethics, I have full respect for the Trial Chamber, but
16 I would also request that my professionalism is not
17 brought up in open court here. I am just going to go
18 on with my question.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber, when
20 we express an opinion about you tendering any
21 particular document, if it's not this particular
22 witness who should tender it, I'll say so. If it's
23 right for him to do so, obviously it will be admitted
24 but definitely this is not his letter. It was not
25 written by him and he agrees with the contents, it does
1 not make it his own document, so he cannot tender it.
2 In any event, I don't see the need for it, for entering
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, it is my place
5 to offer documents into evidence and it is for you to
6 accept them or not. For instance, the SDA membership
7 card was admitted and I believe that I was following
8 the procedures, which has been established in the
9 practice of this Trial Chamber. If I have made a
10 mistake, I can go correct myself, but I was hoping that
11 I have been doing it, the right thing.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Admitted, who is
13 tendering it?
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, could
15 you please tell me whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic, at the
16 time when you were president of the war presidency, was
17 a member of any state of body or did he have any
18 political function in the Konjic municipality?
19 A. I believe that I will be repeating an answer
20 which I have given previously. Mr. Delalic was not a
21 member of any state body or any political body in the
22 Konjic municipality, during my tenure, while I was the
23 leader there.
24 JUDGE JAN: Just one thing, just for
25 clarification, we're just concerned with 1992, he was
1 not a member of any party, he was not a member of your
2 particular party in 1992, just to bring in the year?
3 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC:
5 Q. May I request that the witness be shown
6 document D-136, D-31. And again, I have provided a
7 sufficient number of copies for everyone. Were you
8 able to read through the document?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Again, I am not going to seek here, the
11 authentication of this document, because other persons
12 have authenticated it at the defence request in '96.
13 But I want to tell you whether this document reflects
14 the position of Mr. Zejnil Delalic with respect to his
15 functions in 1992?
16 A. Yes, absolutely this document reflects that.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now don't you think it's
18 better if you ask him, whether this witness was a
19 member of the body at that time, and whether he knew
20 Delalic was a member or so, of the body. If he says
21 so, I think his evidence will be as strong as you can
22 get. You have put him forward as the president of the
23 municipal council and he's -- for the period and why
24 should he be able to give evidence of that period?
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honour, I
1 introduced this witness as the president and I also
2 offered you a document which speaks of Zejnil. He
3 could confirm this because he was the SDA president in
4 Konjic. He was also the president of the municipal
5 assembly and president of war presidency. So, he
6 personally knows this fact. This is why have been
7 offering both this document and the previous document
8 because it confirms the truthfulness. I did not ask
9 him this in 1992. I received a document in 1996 from
10 different bodies, but this person knows about the
11 truthfulness of these facts as of 1992.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What happened.
13 JUDGE JAN: Suspicion.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- As you can get. He
15 was president of the body and he can give evidence of
16 what happened.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours, but the
18 Prosecution cast out, as to the truthfulness of this
19 document, that appeared in the expert witness report.
20 So, what I am trying to do here is to talk about, is
21 truthfulness, because the truthfulness of it has been
22 brought into doubt by the Prosecution and this is why I
23 am trying to have this --
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He's here, I don't see
25 all this argument. The witness is present, in person,
1 to finish whatever cross-examination arising out of it.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: So, am I understanding you
3 correctly, that you are not admitting this document
4 offered by the Defence?
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the Judge
6 Karibi-Whyte please.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I would like to
8 ask you something. I would not like to go on
9 discussing this document. I was provided a videotape
10 of the shelling of Konjic by this witness and a copy of
11 it has been made available for the Prosecution. If you
12 believe that this is an indisputable fact and if the
13 Prosecution is also not disputing it, I have no need to
14 show this videotape. It is also going to talk about
15 the circumstances under which the coordinator was
16 appointed, but if this --
17 JUDGE JAN: Are you disputing that Konjic was
18 shelled frequently during 1992.
19 MR. COWLES: We don't know how frequently it
20 was shelled, but we don't dispute that it was.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This has been said
22 several times, these are not issues in dispute.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC:
24 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, in the light of this
25 discussion, I am just going to ask you without showing
1 the videotape, I am going to ask you as mayor of this
2 town, when did the shelling of Konjic begin?
3 A. Konjic started being shelled in the month of
5 Q. How often was Konjic shelled in this year?
6 A. The first shelling started on 4 May, 1992 and
7 continued tenaciously on a daily basis. It happened
8 that this town, which was very small, up to 500 shells
9 would fall. It was -- those were horror days.
10 Q. Thank you. On 6 April, you were appointed
11 the president of the municipal assembly, of this town.
12 Can you tell me now, apart from the JNA, which at that
13 time was in the barracks, was there any other structure
14 that was -- organisation that was supposed to defend
15 the country and town?
16 A. Apart from the members of the Yugoslav
17 People's Army, who were in military facility, the only
18 structures that existed within the system of the legal
19 and legitimate defence of the town were members of the
20 ministry of the interior. That is the police and
21 members of the Territorial Defence. Thank you.
22 Q. Even though Bosnia and Herzegovina became an
23 independent state, do you know whether the JNA tried,
24 forcibly, to mobilise people?
25 A. Yes. I am aware of that, namely, let me
1 inform Your Honours with a date which is very
2 significant and which impacts my answer to this
3 question. Actually, the general staff of the armed
4 forces of the former Yugoslavia, by its order from
5 1990, required that all the arms of the Territorial
6 Defence should be placed in the warehouses of the
7 Yugoslav People's Army.
8 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, this is a fact that the
9 court has been informed about several times. Will you
10 please tell us what is important in connection with
11 this fact?
12 A. What is important is that the Yugoslav
13 People's Army tried to carry out mobilisation itself,
14 illegally, by trying to illegally seize the documents
15 on mobilisation held in the national defence
16 secretariat of Konjic municipality.
17 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, as a legal authority in
18 Konjic, when the war began on April the 6th, did you
19 follow developments in Bosnia-Herzegovina and did you
20 react to those developments? If you did, tell us how.
21 A. Indeed, I did. As representatives of the
22 legal authorities and the bodies we presided over, we
23 undertook all the necessary steps which would serve the
24 interests of the defence of the city.
25 Let me give you a number of examples. It was
1 our duty to secure the most important facilities in the
2 town itself such as the central electricity power
3 station, the water supply system, to ensure supervision
4 over economic facilities and supervision over all other
5 crucial facilities according to instructions of the
6 state authorities.
7 Q. Tell me, did all the parties that
8 participated and won at the elections, adopt the same
9 attitude towards the legitimacy of the state of
11 A. No, they did not. That is not correct. The
12 Serb Democratic Party of the municipality of Konjic,
13 was carrying out instructions from the Serb
14 Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina and,
15 accordingly, it boycotted the referendum, on the
16 independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and after that, it
17 took a series of steps and measures which, from the
18 standpoint of the legal authorities, constituted a
19 rebellion and non-respect for the authority of the
20 state they belonged to.
21 Q. Thank you. As the president of the assembly,
22 did you convene the assembly for it to take decisions
23 in accordance with measures taken by the state?
24 A. Yes, that is correct. Pursuant to decisions
25 of the competent state bodies, passed in the first half
1 of the month of April, because Bosnia-Herzegovina was
2 an internationally recognised state, I convened the
3 municipal assembly of Konjic, on the 17th of April, at
4 which the appropriate conclusions and decisions were
6 Q. Because of this position that you took
7 regarding the defence of the city, were there threats
8 that the town would be destroyed?
9 A. Yes. General Kukanjac, who was the commander
10 of the second military district in Sarajevo, personally
11 by telephone, threatened me, saying that Konjic would
12 be raised to the ground and he did so on several
13 occasions. And we were just doing our job as the
14 civilian authorities.
15 Q. In that connection, did you address the
16 inhabitants over Radio Konjic and was that recorded?
17 A. Yes. In order to keep the public informed, I
18 acted in a positive direction on a number of occasions,
19 and certainly those recordings must still exist on
20 tapes, I hope.
21 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, since you were the legal
22 authorities, elected legally, do you know whether at
23 the beginning of '92 there were any illegal groups that
24 were preparing the defence of the city?
25 A. In answer to that question, I would say the
1 following: There was no need for us, on our side, to
2 form any illegal groups because we had a system and
3 regular institutions functioning within that system.
4 We had members of the ministry of internal affairs and
5 members of the Territorial Defence. The only forces
6 illegal and paramilitary forces, the only illegal and
7 paramilitary forces were those of the Serb
8 Democratic Party which would not accept the legal
10 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, in view of what you have
11 just said and regardless of what was happening in other
12 parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina, tell me, please, whether
13 in 1992 were there any Green Berets, the Patriotic
14 League as armed formations and others like them?
15 A. As far as I know, such armed formations did
16 not exist in Konjic. As for the Green Berets, I know
17 that such a social organisation, a non-political
18 organisation, therefore, was formed in Konjic in 1994.
19 Q. According to your personal knowledge, could
20 anyone, including Zejnil Delalic, in 1992 be a member
21 of any such organisation?
22 A. As far as I know, he could not.
23 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, what did you undertake,
24 in concrete terms, to take over military facilities and
25 place them under the competence of the legal
1 authorities or, more specifically, what did the
2 municipal assembly, at its meeting on the 17th, do with
3 regard to the degrees and instructions received from
4 the state bodies?
5 A. After the recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina
6 on the 6th of April as an international legal entity,
7 by decision of the competent state bodies, and that
8 means the presidency of the republic of
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina as well as the ministry of defence
10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was our duty to act pursuant
11 to those instructions and decisions.
12 At the mentioned assembly meeting on the 17th
13 of April, 1992 attended by representatives of all the
14 political parties, the agenda was reviewed and that
15 agenda had to do with the political and security
16 situation in the municipality of Konjic, and the report
17 on the same was submitted by the chief of the police
18 station, Mr. Jasmin Guska.
19 One of the agenda items also was the
20 structuring of the Territorial Defence and the proposal
21 on the appointment of the commander of the municipal
22 staff of the Territorial Defence of Konjic because the
23 previous man's term of office had expired.
24 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, exactly on what date was
25 that assembly meeting held, if you can recall?
1 A. It was held on the 17th of April, 1992.
2 Q. Who was attending that meeting in April 1992?
3 A. As I have just said, the composition of
4 members was the usual one. It was attended by deputies
5 of the SDA, HDZ, SDS and other political parties that
6 had a share in the government.
7 Q. Can you recall who chaired that assembly
9 A. It's not a question of remembering. I was
10 the president and I chaired the meeting.
11 Q. Tell me, was Zejnil Delalic a member of the
12 assembly at the time and did he, at all, attend the
13 assembly meeting?
14 A. Absolutely out of the question. Zejnil
15 Delalic could not have been a member of the assembly
16 because he was not a deputy, nor did he participate in
17 the elections.
18 Q. Thank you. Who was proposed, at that
19 assembly meeting, as the new commander of the
20 reorganised Territorial Defence?
21 A. Mr. Enver Regepovic (phoen) was proposed as
22 the new commander.
23 Q. Did your proposal also mean that Enver
24 Regepovic was, indeed, elected commander?
25 A. No, absolutely not. Our right was merely to
1 nominate candidates, and the actual appointment was
2 done by the republican staff of the Territorial
4 Q. May I now ask the witness to be shown --
5 first, may it be marked for identification and then
6 shown to the witness, that is the minutes of this
7 assembly meeting? I have a sufficient number of copies
8 for everyone. This is the original minutes with the
9 translation and here are the copies for their Honours
10 and the Prosecution.
11 THE REGISTRAR: This is document number
13 MS. RESIDOVIC:
14 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, will you please look at
15 the signature at the end of the minutes?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you recognise the signature?
18 A. Yes, of course.
19 Q. Whose signature is it?
20 A. It is the signature of the secretary,
21 Mr. Muhamed Djikic, secretary of the municipal assembly
22 who is still working in the municipality but holds a
23 different position.
24 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, can you tell me, is that
25 the minutes of that meeting? Did you have those
1 minutes in your hands in April 1992?
2 A. Yes, indeed, and these are the minutes of
3 that meeting.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: In view of the fact that
5 these minutes reflect the procedure of the
6 transformation of the Territorial Defence and the
7 nomination of the new commander and this witness
8 presided over that meeting, I tender these minutes into
9 evidence as a Defence exhibit.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can tender it
11 through this witness, no problem.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: I should now like to ask,
13 since I have received from the witness, a videotape of
14 that meeting, I should like to show just the beginning
15 of that tape because I should like to tender that tape
16 into evidence as well.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can carry on with
18 your direct evidence. It is not necessary. We don't
19 need the tape.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Will you please tell me the
21 number of this document?
22 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D173/1.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.
24 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, you said that all
25 parties attended this assembly meeting. Who was the
1 Vice-President of the assembly at the time?
2 A. It was the president of the Serb
3 Democratic Party, Mr. Dulo Kuljanin.
4 Q. Did he too participate in the work of this
6 A. Yes, he did and he was a member of the
7 working presidency of the assembly meeting.
8 Q. What happened after the meeting ended?
9 A. After the meeting, the competent state bodies
10 started working on the implementation of the decisions
11 and conclusions adopted by that assembly meeting;
12 however, the Serb democratic party and its
13 representatives in the government refused to support
14 those decisions and actually, they actually sided with
15 the other party, namely --
16 Q. That will be sufficient.
17 Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, the fact that the Serbs abandoned
18 the legitimate bodies and that the town was being
19 shelled, did that mean that conditions existed
20 according to the law and your statute, that a different
21 method of operation should be adopted in accordance
22 with the constitution and the law or, to be more
23 specific, could the assembly continue to meet?
24 A. That was the last meeting of the assembly, in
25 that form, and pursuant to the regulations in force, as
1 well as the statute of the municipal assembly of
2 Konjic, which stipulated that under conditions of an
3 immediate threat of war or the proclamation of the
4 state of war, the assembly should interrupt its work
5 and all its competencies should be taken over by the
6 presidency of the municipal assembly, the composition
7 of which is defined by the statute of the municipal
8 assembly and which was known at the time as the war
9 presidency because there was a war so that is how
10 people called it.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 A. It is a body that was envisaged by the
13 regulations that existed in peace time.
14 Q. When did you, in Konjic, adopt that statute?
15 A. As far as I recall, that was in 1991.
16 Q. I should now like, with the assistance of the
17 usher, to show the witness the statute of the municipal
18 assembly with translations of the relevant portions
19 relating to procedures in case of war to see whether
20 the witness can recognise this statute as the document
21 he has just been referring to.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D174/1.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: At the end, the provisions
24 that are relevant for this case.
25 Q. Let me first ask the witness whether this
1 document, that you are looking at, is the statute of
2 the municipality of Konjic, in effect, on the 6th of
3 April, 1992 when the war began?
4 A. Yes, that is so. That was the statute in
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: I tender it into evidence as
7 a Defence Exhibit .
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is admitted.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.
10 JUDGE JAN: You have not translated the whole
11 document. I'm interested in the provision relating to
12 the composition of the war presidency.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we have here
14 the competencies, article 68, the competencies are
15 transferred to the presidency. Article 66 talks about
16 the competencies of the assembly and which documents it
17 is authorised to adopt and later on the law regulates.
18 JUDGE JAN: This is a document, a very
19 lengthy one, in Bosnian language. The translation is
20 only about three pages. I was just wondering the
21 provision relating to composition of the war
22 presidency, if there is any such provision, who would
23 compose the war presidency or was it not part of this
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: There is something about it
1 in article 68. We can look through it again and, if
2 necessary, have translated all the relevant
3 provisions. We thought that we had done so. Those
4 articles of relevance for this case, because article 66
5 and 67 refer to that matter.
6 JUDGE JAN: See, I just wanted to check up
7 whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic could ever be, under the
8 constitution, a member of the war presidency. That's
9 all. I was just wondering if there was any provision
10 in these regulations with regard to the persons who
11 would constitute that body. That is all.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Let me read to you article
13 68. It says the composition of the presidency of the
14 municipal assembly is determined by special decisions
15 of the municipal assembly in accordance with the law,
16 and we already have the law in the evidence which
17 specifies who enters ex officio and who is elected.
18 JUDGE JAN: Where the assembly could not
19 meet. If the assembly could not meet, who would
20 determine the composition of the presidency. This is
21 what I was wondering. Because if the assembly was
23 THE WITNESS: Can I answer that question?
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.
25 THE WITNESS: I'd be glad to do that. I
1 think I understand the question.
2 JUDGE JAN: When the assembly could not meet,
3 so then who would determine who would be a member of
4 the war presidency?
5 THE WITNESS: That was established by
6 existing regulations from before and members of the war
7 presidency were there ex officio, that is the president
8 of the municipal assembly, the president -- no, it
9 isn't stated here because it says that it is determined
10 by other documents.
11 JUDGE JAN: Which says who will be the
12 members of the war presidency, but I'm thinking of
13 April 1993 --
14 THE WITNESS: That is not correct. In the
15 situation before the war, we had regulations that
16 stipulated who composed the war presidency in the case
17 of an immediate threat of war and a state of war, so
18 allow me to tell you who they are. Ex officio, the
19 president of the municipal assembly is the president of
20 the war presidency. The president of the executive
21 council of the municipal assembly is a member of the
22 war presidency. The chief of the public security
23 station is a member of the war presidency. The
24 commander of civil defence is a member of the war
25 presidency. The presidents of the clubs of parties,
1 that is of political parties, are also ex officio
2 members of the presidency. That would be the answer to
3 your question.
4 JUDGE JAN: Thank you very much.
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Can this statute,
7 given the relevance of some of its provisions but also
8 because the president of the municipality has
9 recognised it as its own document, I would like to
10 tender it into evidence.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You could tender it but
12 it's quite inadequate. Much of it is of not much
13 assistance. It is written in a language which is not
14 one of the languages of the Tribunal. Only article 66,
15 67, 68 and 69 and 70 and they are the.
16 JUDGE JAN: From your Defence point of view
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So it can hardly be of
19 any use.
20 JUDGE JAN: We now know what the composition
21 of the war presidency is from the mouth of the
22 president so how will this help in resolving the
23 questions before us? So don't waste time and money in
24 getting the whole thing translated.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, what are you
1 trying to show by tendering it? What does it support,
2 because if it supports the question of convening the
3 war presidency, we might sufficiently rely on the
4 evidence of the witness? But if there are other things
5 you want to introduce here, it might not be of any
6 help. The document you want to introduce might not be
7 of any assistance.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, there is also
9 the article 66 here, which is important, because it
10 speaks of the kind of documents, decisions which the
11 war presidency could adopt and also you have a whole
12 range of documents which have been tendered,
13 introduced, and now we are trying to provide the basis
14 on which these were introduced. However, if you are
15 asking me to tender just an abridged version of the
16 statute, and, indeed, as you said, it could be a waste
17 of money and maybe court's time to have the whole thing
18 translated, I'm also willing to introduce just those.
19 JUDGE JAN: Article 66 does not talk about
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: It speaks of the assembly.
22 JUDGE JAN: From April to November when
23 Zejnil Delalic was in Konjic. Before that, he was not
24 even there.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The only against you is
1 the Prosecution. They are not challenging the
2 activities of the municipal council, are they? Nobody
3 is attacking it. Nobody denies its legitimacy, so I
4 don't know what you are really about. Perhaps the
5 Prosecutor might assist us here, if you have anything
6 against the municipal council as a legitimate body? I
7 don't see all the arguments now.
8 JUDGE JAN: You see, Mr. Zejnil Delalic was
9 outside Bosnia before April. He comes in April to
10 attend some funeral. He stays on to November because
11 of the situation in Bosnia, and the war presidency was
12 constituted. Article 66 does not talk about the
13 competencies of the war presidency so what's the use of
14 having it on the record.
15 THE WITNESS: No, this article directly
16 speaks to the activities of the war presidency. Let me
17 explain. The war presidency, in practical terms,
18 substitutes for the assembly. It replaces it so
19 article 66 speaks about the competencies of both the
20 assembly and the war presidency because the war
21 presidency is a body.
22 JUDGE JAN: I understand that and we have
23 heard enough of that. Is it possibly what you have in
24 mind is the assembly passed a resolution appointing
25 someone that -- probably what you have in mind is that
1 the assembly passed a resolution appointing someone as
2 a commander of the TO. Well, in the minutes, we'll
3 find the objection of the SDS representative in the
4 assembly that this can only be done by the republican
5 TO. Have you noticed that in the minutes of the
6 assembly? It says, the subject before the assembly is
7 appointment of a commander of the TO and it says the SD
8 representative, I can't pronounce his name, emphasise
9 that such decision could be made only conditionally and
10 the consent was to be given by the Republic's view of
11 the TO and the suggestion was taken into account. Even
12 at that time, the SDS representative brought, before
13 the assembly, the correct legal position.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: This was not a member of the
15 SDS. This was a member of the social democratic
16 party. He was of Serb ethnic background, but the
17 assembly did accept his proposal according to the law
18 and only later when the republican body did what it
19 did. However, I offered the videotape and this here is
20 the person sitting in front of you who actually
21 accepted that.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You exercised the --
23 THE WITNESS: It was the social democratic
24 party, not the SDS.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't see any
1 problem. If you have any evidence to lead, go ahead.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Just one comment, I think
3 it's relevant, Your Honours, because as of 17 April,
4 the assembly is not competent in appointing commanders
5 of Territorial Defence which can also be seen from the
6 videotape which we have not seen, and this is what the
7 witness has been saying, which is completely opposite
8 of what the Prosecution has been saying.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Read the indictment
10 again and try to know exactly what is the accusation
11 against your client.
12 JUDGE JAN: Even if you assume that the war
13 presidency, the assembly were competent to appoint the
14 commander of the TO, but is there any evidence that
15 Mr. Zejnil Delalic was appointed as commander of the
16 TO? We're only concerned with your client.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is exactly what we're
18 trying to prove, that it never happened. However, the
19 Prosecution claims the opposite of this.
20 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, given the situation and
21 the intense shelling of the town, how was the town
22 supplied from the end of April until the end of 1992?
23 A. The situation in Konjic was very difficult.
24 In all spheres of daily lives.
25 JUDGE JAN: -- we've had some evidence on
1 that, that people were eating plums.
2 THE WITNESS: To make a long story short, we
3 were deficient in everything.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC:
5 Q. Can you tell the Court how many refugees
6 arrived in the Town of Konjic from different parts of
7 Bosnia and who took care of them?
8 A. The first refugees started arriving in Konjic
9 in the month of March, that is in late March and early
10 April. From the villages, which -- from the villages
11 from which the Serb paramilitary units had driven
12 out non-Serb population. These were the villages of
13 Jakici, Racaci (phoen) --
14 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, can you tell us the
15 approximate figure of the refugees at that time?
16 A. The total number of refugees in Konjic, in
17 that period, was somewhere around 15,000. These were
18 the refugees from Eastern Herzegovina, Eastern Bosnia,
19 who, who had walked for days across mountains and had
20 great difficulties in reaching safety.
21 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, as a legal authority in
22 Konjic, did you place under control, certain military
23 objects, facilities in Konjic?
24 A. Yes, let me re-emphasise the date of
25 independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The international
1 community recognised this country and from that day on,
2 all property was -- all this property belonged to the
3 legal government authorities. Following the
4 instructions of the competent state bodies, on the
5 nights between 18 and 19 April 1992, we took control of
6 the facilities for production of ordnance, that was the
7 Igman Company. After that, we took control of the
8 compound of the Celebici barracks.
9 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, do you know how the
10 Celebici barracks were taken over?
11 A. Yes, I know. Commander of the Celebici
12 barracks was a Bosniac, I believe that he was a warrant
13 officer in the former JNA and his name was Narcis
14 Hasacic. He signed off on loyalty to the legal
16 Q. Were you personally involved in the
17 negotiations about -- on the take over of the Celebici
19 A. Yes. On one occasion in a hospital where I
20 was working, because even though I was a president of
21 the municipality, I still worked in the hospital two
22 days a week and on one occasion this person came to
23 me. I had never seen him before. He was in civilian
24 clothes. He introduced himself to me and he expressed
25 his wish, as a Bosniac, to turn over the Celebici
1 barracks to us. Since I had previously received
2 information on this wish of his, I informed the
3 competent persons in the TO headquarters and the entire
4 procedure, the entire operation was then conducted by
5 the TO headquarters.
6 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, do you know whether Mr.
7 Zejnil Delalic took part in the take-over of this
8 facility. And do you know in what capacity and was he
9 at all involved in a take-over of the barracks by the
10 legal authorities?
11 A. I have already stated that this take-over was
12 conducted through the Territorial Defence headquarters
13 and the -- and Delalic's involvement in it may have
14 been only in transportation of the material found there
15 because Mr. Zejnil Delalic had absolutely no role in
16 the TO headquarters or in the municipality.
17 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, as a physician, can you
18 tell us whether your health centre was prepared for
19 such sudden onslaught of war?
20 A. Given the size of the Konjic town, before the
21 war we did not have enough hospital facilities. We
22 only had some specialised units. And given the large
23 influx of the wounded and other persons who were
24 flowing into Konjic and because of the fact that the
25 roads had been blocked both in the direction of
1 Sarajevo and Mostar, we resorted to establishing a war
2 hospital in Konjic.
3 Q. How was your hospital equipped with medical
4 supplies and other equipment at that time? Was it
6 A. It was very poor.
7 MR. NIEMANN: Objection.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why are you objecting to
9 asking him how the hospital was equipped?
10 MR. NIEMANN: Because it's irrelevant, Your
12 JUDGE JAN: Probably what you want to share
13 is, there were not enough facilities for the detention
14 of persons, so they had to move to Celebici. That's
15 what the witness has said. The witness has said yes in
16 Konjic and the number of persons who had been arrested
17 or detained was much larger.
18 MR. NIEMANN: This is a hospital.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's about influx of so
20 many people into Konjic community, the increase of
21 refugees into the place. The need for this type of
23 MR. NIEMANN: I won't argue any further, Your
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can ask him.
1 THE WITNESS: There was a lack of medication,
2 especially things needed for surgery because that was
3 the greatest need. We needed most of those supplies,
4 because we had a lot of very serious and bad wounds
5 coming from the combat activities.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Mr.
8 Q. Given how you described the situation in
9 Konjic, the blockade and everything, do you know as a
10 president of the municipality, that the Konjic
11 authorities have adopted certain decisions and taken
12 steps to lift this blockade off Konjic?
13 A. I will gladly answer this question. But
14 before that, I would like to give a brief
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it's better you
17 answer the question, instead of getting in on your own
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. The
20 competent military authorities, which means the TO
21 headquarters and also the competent police authorities,
22 given the fact that the Serb paramilitary formations
23 had blocked the town from the north, it was in the
24 Village of Bradina on the M-17 highway and on the
25 south-west. It was a regional road at the village
1 called Donje Selo or lower village. And thereby, a
2 large area of the Konjic municipality was effectively
3 blockaded, blocked, and this is where some 16,000
4 people live and this is an area called Neretvica. On the
5 other side, Serb forces from the area of Borci,
6 which had occupied this area as early as 1991, while
7 preparing the operation Dubrovnik, so the Town of
8 Konjic was surrounded, on all sides, by some kind of a
10 Q. Very well, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, you explained
11 how the situation was, but as a member of the municipal
12 government and as a physician, do you know whether,
13 during the combat operations around Donje Selo and
14 Bradina, there were any casualties, either dead or
16 A. Yes, I remember very, very vividly this
17 period at Donje Selo. During the lifting of the
18 blockade, two members of the police force were killed.
19 If necessary I can even state their names Mustafa Boric
20 and Velija Niksic. And at Bradina, a 16-year-old boy
21 was killed by the name of Rizvanovic, and a member of
22 the HVO was also killed. I believe his first named was
23 Goran. And I know this because I attended the funerals
24 of these people.
25 Q. And as a physician, do you know whether there
1 were any wounded during this fighting?
2 A. Absolutely. There were a number of wounded
3 and some of them have consequences of these injuries to
5 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, can you tell us whether
6 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, that is in May, 1992, was in Konjic
7 and, according to your knowledge, did he take part in
8 any of these operations?
9 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic at that time was not in
10 Konjic. I believe that he went on official duty in the
11 sense of procurement of certain material, that is
12 logistics equipment. He went to Croatia. And, as far
13 as I recall, he did not attend the funerals of these
14 men either. Because this is a custom in our area, in
15 our -- that everybody attends funerals.
16 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, given this complex
17 situation in town, the shelling, the lack of goods,
18 dead and wounded, did there come a time when the
19 military headquarters and the war presidency were to
20 assess the situation and agree as to how to proceed in
21 these war -- in this wartime situation, advanced
22 wartime situation?
23 A. Yes, I think I can answer this question in
24 the affirmative. We were sitting continuously because
25 we just had too much work to do, at every moment in
1 time, and we also did not know whether we would survive
2 the day. And I recall this was in the later part of
3 May or, more specific, I think this was 18 May, 1992,
4 the war presidency of the Konjic Municipality held a
5 meeting with the joint command of the armed forces of
7 Q. Your Honour, the next line of questioning is
8 a block of questions, I am wondering whether if this
9 would be a good moment to break off before entering
10 this area?
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will now rise and
12 resume at 4.30 p.m.
13 --- Recess taken at 4.05 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 4.33 p.m.
15 (The witness entered court)
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind the witness he is
17 still under oath.
18 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
19 are still under oath.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, where are
21 we? You were continuing with your --
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. There was a
23 slight lack of clarity in connection with the question
24 put by Judge Jan. To clarify this fact, I should like
25 to give to the witness once again the minutes of the
1 9th meeting of the municipal assembly in order to be
2 able to ask him two brief questions.
3 JUDGE JAN: That has nothing to do with the
4 command responsibility of your client. Even if there
5 is no clarity, it doesn't affect it at all. It's
6 nobody's case that he was appointed as the TO commander
7 by the war presidency, so we are not concerned whether
8 the war presidency appointed someone as commander of
9 the TO. It doesn't relate to your client at all so why
10 go into that?
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have they conflicting
12 duties? Are there any conflicting duties between the
13 coordinator and the TO?
14 JUDGE JAN: What was his function of the
15 coordinator if he was appointed --
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let him us tell us.
17 JUDGE JAN: This is more important than going
18 into these matters about the competency of the war
19 presidency and all that.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I understand
21 you very well, but as the president observed, I
22 understand the indictment very well and the position of
23 the Prosecution. This document and this session was
24 very important whether the assembly could give him any
25 kind of superior authority. That is where the story of
1 the Prosecution begins. And the position of the
2 Defence, you drew attention to a point which I wish
3 to elucidate with the help of this witness, the
4 beginning of the Prosecution's case.
5 JUDGE JAN: The issue before us is the
6 command responsibility of your client, nothing more
7 than that. Admittedly, he was a coordinator appointed
8 by the war presidency. Ask him what were the functions
9 assigned to him and did it really relate to the
10 Celebici camp?
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you remember, there
12 are two significant issues about Delalic. He was
13 appointed coordinator. He was also appointed Tactical
14 Group 1 commander. He must have acted in these two
15 areas. If his activities in doing these two areas that
16 has brought him any of these offences for which he has
17 been charged, so these are the only things that concern
18 you, not whether any other thing happened somewhere.
19 That has nothing to do with him.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I don't wish to
21 go outside that framework, it may appear to be that,
22 but my questions are leading to that crucial issue.
23 JUDGE JAN: Then come to them straight away.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to Judge
25 Karibi-Whyte, please?
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The minutes of the
2 municipal assembly, these minutes are not a point to
3 what has been disputed so --
4 JUDGE JAN: I'm sure as president of the war
5 presidency, he has done lots of things and he can keep
6 on telling us this for a year, but let us confine
7 ourselves to those points which are in issue before
9 MS. RESIDOVIC:
10 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, at the assembly meeting
11 that we have referred to, the former staff commander,
12 Major Prevljak, did he inform the assembly on changes
13 in the Territorial Defence and did you, accordingly,
14 agree on a proposal for the new organisation?
15 A. Yes. I can answer that question in the
16 positive, in the affirmative. Mr. Smajo Prevljak spoke
17 at that meeting and informed us that that morning such
18 a document had reached the staff headquarters from
19 Sarajevo, a document that came from the republican
20 staff of the Territorial Defence. He informed the
21 assembly meeting of the same. At the same time, he
22 informed the meeting that in the course of the meeting
23 he expected confirmation from Sarajevo of our proposal
24 on the appointment.
25 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, is it true then --
1 first, my question is: Did confirmation of your
2 proposal arrive from Sarajevo on that day or the next
3 day; do you know that?
4 A. As far as I know, it didn't reach us in the
5 course of our meeting.
6 Q. Do you know whether your proposals were
7 endorsed by the republican authorities?
8 A. Yes, they were. I do know that.
9 JUDGE JAN: That leads to the appointment of
10 one -- please be concerned with Mr. Delalic. Please
11 confine yourself to Mr. Delalic's role in this.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC:
13 Q. My next question, Your Honours, from that day
14 on, did all the legal authorities function in
15 accordance with the new regulations. That is my
16 question. The position of the Prosecution is --
17 A. From that day on, after approval came from
18 the republican bodies, all the bodies acted in line
19 with the any regulations.
20 Q. Before the break, you said that you had a
21 joint meeting between the war presidency and the joint
22 staff on the 18th of May. At that meeting, did you
23 adopt any conclusions?
24 A. Yes. At that meeting, we did adopt
25 conclusions. I said earlier on that that meeting was
1 held and a series of conclusions were adopted at that
2 meeting having to do with the civilian authorities and
3 also a certain number of conclusions related to the
4 bodies of the joint staff or, rather, the joint command
5 of the armed forces. After that, all of us worked in
6 accordance with our competencies.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: With the assistance of the
8 usher, I should like to show the witness the text of
9 the conclusions, which has already been admitted into
10 evidence, for me to be able to ask a number of
12 THE REGISTRAR: Defence document D175/1.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC:
14 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, have you looked at this
16 A. Yes, I have.
17 Q. Do you recognise the signature?
18 A. Yes, it is my signature.
19 Q. Will you tell me, please,
20 Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, whether after this meeting it was
21 quite clear what were the competencies of the war
22 presidency and what were the obligations and
23 responsibilities of the command of the armed forces, of
24 the defence forces?
25 A. Yes, it was completely clear. The war
1 presidency had its own competencies according to the
2 constitution, and the same applies to the armed forces.
3 Q. Is it true that these conclusions established
4 that all the bodies had to act in accordance with their
6 A. Absolutely so.
7 Q. After this joint meeting, did you, in the war
8 presidency, review the implementation of the
9 conclusions relating to you and the adoption of the
10 corresponding decisions?
11 A. Yes, that is correct.
12 Q. Did you, on that day, reviewing your
13 obligations and responsibilities, decide on the
14 appointment of Zejnil Delalic to any particular
15 assignment or position?
16 A. Yes, we did adopt such a decision.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: In view of the fact that this
18 is a decision dated 18th of May, I should like to have
19 this decision on the appointment of the coordinator.
20 It is already in evidence, D136, D/11, also a Defence
22 Q. Before asking you a question related to this
23 decision, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, I want to ask you
24 whether, in accordance with the new regulations, the
25 war presidency could appoint the commander of the TO
1 staff or other persons holding military positions?
2 A. The war presidency, according to the new
3 regulations, absolutely could not appoint anyone to any
4 military post because it didn't have any such
6 Q. You have seen the decision that I have just
7 given to you. Tell me, please, who signed this
9 A. This is my signature. I signed it.
10 Q. Is this a decision whereby the war presidency
11 appointed Zejnil Delalic the coordinator for the
12 defence forces?
13 A. Yes. That is that decision.
14 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, did this appointment
15 mean an appointment of Zejnil Delalic to any kind of
16 military position?
17 A. Absolutely not because, as I have already
18 said, the war presidency is a civilian body so it could
19 not make decisions on the appointment of any military
21 Q. Did Zejnil Delalic in discharging the task
22 that you assigned to him, could he issue orders to
23 military structures?
24 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic absolutely could not issue
25 any kind of orders to military structures because he
1 was a civilian. As a civilian, this body in line with
2 its constitutional and legal authority and in
3 accordance with the statute of Konjic municipality
4 appointed him as a civilian and in the status of a
5 civilian to this position. As the body appointing him
6 did not have those rights, then Mr. Delalic could not
7 have had any such rights.
8 Q. I apologise for a moment,
9 Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, in view of the fact that my
10 learned colleague has checked that the conclusions
11 dated 18th of May signed by this witness were not
12 admitted as Defence exhibit. I'm now tendering them
13 into evidence.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You want them to be in
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to Judge
17 Karibi-White, please?
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You want the conclusions
19 of --
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Of the 18th of May to be
21 admitted into evidence.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's admitted. The
23 chairman himself said -- the chairman being here
24 himself is sufficient. You don't need it for any
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, in point 2 of the
3 decision on the appointment of Mr. Delalic, it is
4 stated that he will directly coordinate work between
5 the defence forces of Konjic municipality and the war
6 presidency. Could you please tell us,
7 Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, what were in practise the duties
8 of the coordinator appointed by you?
9 A. The very word "coordinator" means that his
10 duty was to reflect certain needs which certain bodies
11 addressed to the war presidency or certain organs of
12 the war presidency or the war presidency itself had
13 certain requests in relation to the armed forces. I
14 could give you some practical examples of those
15 activities, if that is important for the court.
16 Q. Before I or the court asks you about that,
17 let me first ask whether you whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic
18 attended the meeting of the war presidency when you
19 appointed him to this position?
20 A. I should like to remind their Honours what I
21 have been saying. I said that Mr. Delalic was away,
22 was in Croatia.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's easy for you to
24 answer. Was he at the meeting or not?
25 A. He did not attend the meeting. He did not.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC:
2 Q. Do you know, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, in the
3 period before he went to Croatia and while he was in
4 Croatia as a civilian, as you said, what were the kinds
5 of duties that he carried out?
6 A. Mr. Delalic, before being appointed to this
7 position of coordinator, engaged in similar
8 activities. That is, he was working on logistic
9 tasks. That is the procurement of material and
10 technical means which were important for defence, for
11 the defence of the Town of Konjic.
12 Q. Counsel, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, can you recall
13 how it came about that Mr. Zejnil Delalic should have
14 been appointed to this position?
15 A. I wish to assure their Honours that his
16 appointment in nothing special because such
17 appointments to the position of co-ordinators were
18 several. Therefore, the war presidency, which engaged
19 in a large range of activities and which was very busy,
20 would seek out ways to ensure maximum efficiency. And
21 the idea to appoint him at the time was not actually,
22 especially designed for him. The idea emerged that we
23 should appoint a person who would be effective as a
24 kind of mediator in dealing with certain problems
25 between the civilian body, that is the war presidency
1 and the joint command, that is the armed forces. The
2 recommendation that he, himself, should be appointed
3 came from the economic staff. Because Mr. Delalic was
4 a well-known figure. He was known as a person who had
5 been working for a number of years in business in
6 economic affairs. And in the view of the economic
7 staff, he was the most suitable person to discharge
8 such a function. In view of his experience and the
9 numerous connections he had both in the country and
11 Q. Counsel, a moment ago in answer the a
12 question from His Honour Judge Jan, you explained the
13 composition of the were presidency, to be even more
14 precise, can you tell the Court whether in those days,
15 the commander of the municipal staff or the commander
16 of the joint staff, were they members of the war
18 A. No. The commander of the municipal staff, or
19 the commander of the joint command, was not a member of
20 a war presidency that is certain.
21 Q. Counsel, you also said that the situation was
22 complicated and you wanted to simplify it, can you
23 explain why some problems could not be resolved within
24 the joint command and, in fact, what was your intention
25 by appointing the commander, not the commander, the
1 coordinator -- counsel, yes, I'm sorry -- what were the
2 things that he was meant to take care of?
3 A. I will briefly explain that to the Court with
4 the an aim behind the appointment of a coordinator. In
5 view of the fact that there was a state of war, the war
6 presidency was contacted by a series of persons every
7 day from the armed forces and it is well known that the
8 armed forces consisted of three bodies, three
9 formations: members of the ministry of the interior,
10 the HVO and the Territorial Defence. All three
11 elements had their own separate command structure, the
12 chain of command structure, chain of command, so that
13 the civilian bodies would lose or waste a lot of time
14 if they were to discuss the same things with each one
15 of them. By appointing a coordinator as a civilian, as
16 a person who would voice all those needs and
17 communicate them between the war presidency and the
18 armed forces. By doing this, in my view, the war
19 presidency ensured greater efficiency of its work when
20 it came to a large number of tasks that it had to
22 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, you just answered my
23 follow up question, which was, did a coordinator
24 actually facilitate your work with different formations
25 that composed defence forces in town?
1 A. Absolutely.
2 Q. You said that in this position, Mr. Zejnil
3 Delalic could not issue orders, could Mr. Zejnil
4 Delalic reach, himself, certain decisions?
5 A. Absolutely, he absolutely could not take any
6 decisions or issue any orders. His function was purely
7 technical in nature.
8 Q. Could Mr. Zejnil Delalic's coordinator make
9 appointments which otherwise were in confidence of the
10 war presidency?
11 A. No, absolutely not.
12 Q. Could he make appointments in some other
13 areas where the war presidency had no authority?
14 A. No, absolutely not, he could not make any
16 Q. Could Mr. Delalic make any military
18 A. I have already answered that question. He as
19 civilian had no authority whatsoever to make any
20 appointments, military or civilian or otherwise.
21 Q. Did by this appointment, Mr. Zejnil Delalic
22 become a member of the war presidency?
23 A. By this appointment, Mr. Zejnil Delalic did
24 not become a member of the war presidency because the
25 composition of the war presidency was already known and
1 it could not be changed.
2 Q. Did Mr. Zejnil Delalic's coordinator attend
3 any meetings, any sessions and, if he did, did he have
4 any authority to joining, taking decisions during these
6 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic could attend meetings of
7 the war presidency only as an exception. And when he
8 did attend, he only had the right to contribute to the
9 discussion, but not to vote.
10 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, do you know whether Mr.
11 Zejnil Delalic at any time during 1992 was appointed or
12 was on duty of the commander of the territorial staff
13 of the Konjic municipality?
14 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic was never appointed to
15 the, to commander of the municipal -- of the
16 territorial staff of the Konjic municipality.
17 Q. Do you know who in May, in early May, 1992,
18 was commander of the TO?
19 A. This was a period when the commanders changed
20 very frequently, but I believe that in early May, the
21 commander was Mr. Esad Ramic.
22 Q. If you were to be shown a videotape where Mr.
23 Zejnil Delalic is being introduced as a commander TO
24 and this is in the middle of May, 1992, would you say
25 that this introduction was true or false?
1 A. Whoever were to introduce Mr. Zejnil Delalic
2 during this period as commander of the TO headquarters
3 would be saying -- will be stating a false thing. It
4 simply is not true.
5 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, during 1992, did you
6 know the fact that there was a journalist who
7 introduced Mr. Zejnil Delalic in such a manner?
8 A. Yes, I am aware of this fact. That is, we --
9 we were able in Konjic to get TV programs broadcast by
10 Croatian television. And in one of these programs,
11 which was named, "Slikom Na Sliku", that is image on
12 image, Mr. Zejnil Delalic was a guest. I personally
13 watched this broadcast and I believe that it was either
14 the programme director or somebody else in charge of
15 this broadcast, did misrepresent Mr. Delalic's title.
16 It was -- we laughed when we saw this because we knew
17 at that time who the commander was, so this was not
18 true. Because at that time, Mr. Delalic was a
20 Q. But Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, did you know on what
21 business was Mr. Delalic on at that time?
22 A. Yes, I did know that time because he was
23 there on official duty. He had received authorisation
24 as a civilian to do some logistics work.
25 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, until when was Mr.
1 Delalic on this duty of coordinator to which he was
2 appointed to the war presidency on 18 May?
3 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic was on duty of
4 coordinator, which is the duty that he was appointed to
5 by the war presidency up until 26 July, 1992, when Mr.
6 Delalic assumed the duty of a logistics officer for the
7 Borci operation. And by leaving to that location, his
8 duty of coordinator did not cease.
9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: There may be an
10 interpretation issue. Page 117 of Live Note, line 9,
11 it's 26 July, 1992, could that be verified to see
12 whether the witness said 26 July.
13 JUDGE JAN: Yes, he did say 26 July.
14 THE WITNESS: June, June.
15 JUDGE JAN: He said 26 July. Well, he can
16 correct himself.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC:
18 Q. We got a misinterpretation.
19 A. It was on June, not July, it was in June,
20 that is correct.
21 Q. You -- I want to bring you back to the point
22 where you left off, that his role of coordinator did
23 not cease?
24 A. Mr. Delalic continued on the same -- with the
25 same tasks which involved logistics, logistical
1 activities within, as part of the Borci operation and
2 he continued with the same activities.
3 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, let me take you back to
4 some other activities in which Mr. Zejnil Delalic was
5 involved while on duty as coordinator, can you
6 illustrate several things that you remember Mr. Delalic
7 being engaged in around June of 1992?
8 A. Yes, I can indeed and I'll do it gladly. Mr.
9 Delalic was involved in providing security for the
10 warehouse facilities where different types of equipment
11 were stored. And, in this way, he also put his own
12 house as well as the house of his sister at disposal
13 for these purposes. He also invested part of his own
14 personal means to provide certain equipment. He was
15 also involved in setting up communication systems. And
16 when I say this, I have in mind the opening of the
17 railroad tracks between Pazaric and Jablanica, which
18 all had to do with enabling persons and goods to be
19 transported, which was all in the function of the
21 Q. Very well. So these were some of the
22 activities. Now, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, just since you
23 said Mr. Zejnil Delalic could not issue military
24 orders, did you during 1992 perhaps see certain orders
25 which were signed by military commanders and were also
1 a signature of the coordinator that was featured, can
2 you perhaps explain us why that signature would have
3 been placed on documents of this type?
4 A. Yes, this would happen occasionally, that in
5 some documents his signature would also feature. But
6 this signature only meant that he was present there
7 because he was a person who was supposed to transmit
8 certain information to the war presidency from the
9 command post or vice versa. And in no way did that
10 mean that he could take decisions.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, turning to the preparation
12 and execution of the defence. What were -- what was
13 the role of the war presidency?
14 A. The war presidency has the highest body of
15 power was involved in a whole range of activities
16 relating to the Defence. The most important among them
17 were securing the maintenance of the vital functions of
18 this town in order for it to survive, which involved,
19 for instance, supply, keeping the water supply going,
20 keeping the electrical power supplies going, then
21 maintenance of the health services, functioning of the
22 social care, functioning of certain institutions such
23 as the Red Cross and a whole range of other activities,
24 which were vital for the functioning of a municipality
25 in the, in the period of war.
1 Q. Among responsibilities which you just
2 mentioned, did war presidency also have a role in the
3 command and control of the armed forces?
4 A. The war presidency had absolutely no
5 authority or powers with respect to the control and
6 command of the military forces because it was a
7 civilian body.
8 Q. Mr. President, given that you were dealing
9 with a whole range of problems, did you at some point
10 have a session of the assembly at which you addressed
11 these issues and did you reach a decision on those?
12 A. I tend to say that, those days, I was on
13 duty, I was on call for 24-hours a day, so we really
14 worked continuously. I slept in my office. There was
15 a metal cot there and so there were times when I did
16 not see my family for 20 days in a row.
17 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, I am now going to show
18 you some documents, they are -- they relate to our
19 proceedings and let me show -- it's 236, D-14. And I
20 have enough copies for the court, so if he would please
21 distribute them around. The transcript reflects
22 "236." It is 136.
23 Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, is this document signed?
24 A. Yes. This is my signature.
25 Q. You recognise your signature on this
1 document; is that correct?
2 A. Absolutely.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Since the witness recognised
4 the document which he has signed in his own
5 handwriting, I am offering it into evidence as Defence
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, it is entered.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.
9 Q. Before we address some of these conclusions,
10 let me just ask you, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, did the war
11 presidency have any authority regarding the arrest,
12 detention and custody of any persons who were detained?
13 A. The answer to this question is no and
14 absolutely not. The war presidency had no such
16 Q. Mr. President, do you know who had the
17 authority to arrest and detain persons in those days in
19 A. Yes, I do know about that. These were the
20 bodies of the ministry of the interior, that is, the
21 police as well as the HVO -- the military police and,
22 later on, the TO military police.
23 Q. Mr. President, can you tell me whether during
24 this period, that is, in 1992, the war presidency had
25 any authority in the establishment of prisons or any
1 authority over the prisons which had already been
3 A. The war presidency had no authority. It
4 never established or did have any authority in that
6 Q. As the president of the war presidency, did
7 you know whether there were any prisons in Konjic
8 before the beginning of war and at the very beginning
9 of war, if there was a prison?
10 A. Konjic is a small town, and before the war,
11 it did not have a prison. Within the police precinct
12 building, I know that there were two rooms in which
13 persons who had been arrested or detained were placed,
14 but only for a short period of time, until they were
15 transferred to the district prison in Mostar where the
16 prison was located. There were also similar prison
17 facilities in Zenica and Sarajevo.
18 Q. Considering the combat activities in wartime,
19 can you tell me, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, whether in the
20 spring of 1992 it was possible to take persons who had
21 been detained, to transfer them to Mostar?
22 A. No. This was absolutely not possible
23 because, at that time, Mostar and the entire Eastern
24 Herzegovina was occupied by the military forces of the
1 Q. Mr. President, was there a court in Konjic
2 and was there a public prosecutor's office there?
3 A. I can answer that question in the
4 affirmative. Before the war, there was a basic court
5 in Konjic as well as the public prosecutor's office.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE JAN: He said the case referred to
8 Sarajevo and Mostar. You already have evidence on
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: I only want to ask the
11 president, as he was the president of the municipal
12 assembly, whether the assembly and the war presidency
13 were authorised, in absence of court, whether they were
14 authorised to establish a court. This is my question
15 to the chief officer of the municipality.
16 JUDGE JAN: The chief officer has said that
17 the courts are not even functioning. We already have
18 evidence of that. Don't cover the field which has
19 already been covered.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Shall we go on or shall we
21 conclude for today?
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you're tired, we will
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: I'm not particularly tired.
25 I could go on for another two minutes for sure.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think there is no
2 point continuing now. We will adjourn now. Tomorrow
3 morning, we will not reassemble before 10.45. The
4 Trial Chamber will reassemble at 10.45.
5 Please read back what you might have done so
6 that you do not keep on repeating the same evidence all
7 over again. It will help you think more clearly.
8 We can now adjourn until 10.45 a.m.
10 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 5.29 p.m.
11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of
12 May, 1998 at 10.45 a.m.