Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12034

1 --- Upon commencing at 10.13 a.m.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

3 gentlemen. May we have the appearances, please?

4 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honour,

5 Theresa McHenry appearing for the Prosecution along

6 with Mr. Turone. Mr. Niemann is in another courtroom

7 at the present time but will at some point today, I

8 assume, be joining us. Also, we have a new case

9 manager. Ms. Udo had a conflict, and so now Mr. George

10 Huber is also with us for the Prosecution as case

11 manager.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

13 Welcome to the team. May we have the Defence

14 appearances?

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

16 I'm Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil

17 Delalic. Mr. Zejnil Delalic is also co-defended by my

18 colleague Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, professor from

19 Canada. Thank you.

20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

21 I'm Tomislav Kuzmanovic for defendant Zdravko Mucic.

22 Mr. Olujic will not be here this week. He will rejoin

23 us on Monday. Thank you.

24 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

25 I'm Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, Defence

Page 12035

1 counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic along with Mr. Thomas

2 Moran, attorney from Houston, Texas. Thank you.

3 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours,

4 I'm Cynthia McMurrey here for Mr. Esad Landzo along

5 with co-counsel Ms. Nancy Boler. Thank you.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

7 Before the witnesses are called, I think it is

8 necessary for me to point out what Ms. Residovic has

9 sent in to us. In her reply to a status conference, an

10 earlier list of witnesses was filed numbering about

11 30. Subsequent to that, I have now this morning

12 received another list of witnesses not departing from

13 that, and I have not counted them, but I think it has

14 not made any material difference to what was

15 submitted.

16 The document which has just presented these

17 witnesses shows that this list includes the witnesses

18 scheduled to testify from today to the 29th of May.

19 I'm hoping that the estimation of the duration of the

20 Defence case, that is the Defence of the first accused,

21 is likely to continue to the end of June. This is the

22 projection.

23 Actually, I thought during the status

24 conference and subsequent observations, it was

25 understood that the Trial Chamber will not accept

Page 12036

1 repetitions or duplications or further evidence on

2 areas subsequently traversed by the Defence earlier

3 witnesses. We thought that it is a waste of time. It

4 will go over old ground and it does not explain the

5 issues for them. We don't see why the Trial Chamber

6 should interest itself in duplicating its witnesses.

7 Now, I should not be regarded as being unfair

8 or rude on pointing out to counsel the charges which

9 they are obliged to defend. Please let me read what

10 the Prosecution in its charges has stated. If you look

11 at the indictment at paragraph 13, it states: "All of

12 the victims referred to in the charges contained in

13 this indictment were at all relevant times detainees in

14 Celebici camp and were persons protected by the Geneva

15 Conventions of 1949." And 14: "All acts described in

16 the paragraphs below occurred in the Celebici camp in

17 the Konjic municipality." I think nothing can be

18 clearer than this. Then it went on in paragraph 15 to

19 say: "The allegations contained in paragraphs seven

20 through fourteen are re-alleged and incorporated into

21 each of the relevant charges set out below."

22 As I said, paragraph 14 states: "All acts

23 described in the paragraphs below occurred in the

24 Celebici camp in the Konjic municipality." This is

25 what it says.

Page 12037

1 Now, when you read the witnesses and what

2 they intend to say, you find that almost a significant

3 number of them relate to role and responsibility of the

4 coordinator and TG-1 commander. This is merely what it

5 says. You will find that it talks about role and

6 responsibility in respect of Jablanica municipality,

7 not minding what the Prosecution has stated, what

8 concerns them are things which happened in Konjic

9 municipality. To find so many, about two of the

10 witnesses talking about Jablanica and then Hadzici

11 municipality, then Prozor municipality, and then it

12 goes to general principles which have been very clearly

13 stated by both Hadzihuseinovic and by Cerovac, all of

14 them who are Defence witnesses themselves.

15 Now, defence structures in Konjic

16 municipality have been very clearly stated by the chief

17 of staff of the municipality. When we talk about

18 conditions in Konjic municipality, that has also been

19 clearly stated. We have had so many of them. I

20 suppose the more that is said, we are so daft that we

21 should be told so many times so that we can understand

22 what is being said, when both the Defence and the

23 Prosecution are saying the same thing. We have heard

24 it so many times that a coordinator has no military

25 responsibility. On both sides they have emphasised

Page 12038

1 that. Why then do we go forward to continue to talk

2 about his position?

3 Now, again we're talking about hearing about

4 the liberation of Bradina. There was no one at that

5 who was charged both as coordinator and TG-1

6 commander. He was neither at the time that Bradina was

7 liberated, so how does it come in? I don't know.

8 Now, there are areas where perhaps one might

9 make a concession. An officer like Mustafa Polutak,

10 who himself was sometime commander of TG-1. Obviously,

11 one expects he should be called to say what happened,

12 his position, his relationship, one expects that.

13 Perhaps there might be the question of a MUP operation

14 and the like who perhaps I would expect, but all the

15 others are completely irrelevant and a waste of time,

16 money and patience on the part of everybody concerned.

17 I'm surprised that it happens.

18 Now, for conditions in Celebici, why do we

19 have to get in as many witnesses as this? How come so

20 many? I'm still not too satisfied about the motives

21 for this type of multiplication of witnesses. There

22 must be other motives other than clarity of the

23 evidence intended to be tendered to the Trial Chamber.

24 I'm not satisfied at all, whatsoever, because the

25 witnesses which are lined up today I do not know, but

Page 12039

1 if I follow this list, it appears that Agic Saban

2 Witness D, Saban is about role and responsibility of

3 coordinator, joint command. We have heard enough of

4 that Operation Oganj. Then the witness of the defence

5 structures in Konjic, well, we have heard enough from

6 the chief of Celebici. We have heard about the role

7 and responsibility of coordinator, liberation of

8 Bradina. I think they are completely irrelevant to

9 what we intend to hear now.

10 Perhaps you would say I have not heard the

11 witnesses so I do not know exactly what they want to

12 say. I'm only forewarning, if you want to call them,

13 you might still call them, but I'm entitled to stop

14 irrelevancies being introduced into evidence or

15 repetition of what has been said here in the interests

16 of justice of this case.

17 This is what I intend to tell you. So if you

18 want to, you can still proceed, but I reserve the right

19 to tell you what the Trial Chamber will have.

20 Yes, let's continue.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, after the

22 status conference, what we did is, we deleted 12

23 witnesses from the witness list which had been

24 previously submitted, taking into account that the

25 issues that they were to speak to have been

Page 12040

1 sufficiently clarified by other witnesses.

2 In the letter which was submitted today, we

3 said that we would re-evaluate each witness that is to

4 come and that we will continue to reduce the number of

5 witnesses. We believe that we will finish our

6 witnesses in the week following the week which will be

7 the break for us. This is after long and arduous work

8 that we have done.

9 Now, I want to turn to the counts. Here we

10 have, for instance, count 3 which he is charged with

11 being responsible for the Celebici camp in the position

12 of superiority. Further, it is said that all guards

13 who entered the camp and who mistreated prisoners there

14 were under the command of Mr. Delalic and that he was

15 aware that he did nothing to stop. We're looking at

16 point 3 and point 7.

17 Further on, there's also inhumane

18 mistreatment. They are all based, founded on what

19 actually was happening at Celebici but also are based

20 on what the position of responsibility of the

21 coordinator and the commander of the Tactical Group

22 had. If today we agree with the Prosecutor that the

23 coordinator was not a military position, if we can

24 agree on that, the Defence will not ask any more

25 questions in that regard and can dismiss any witness

Page 12041

1 that would speak to that.

2 We are not sure that we have not clarified

3 enough the position of the commander of the Tactical

4 Group. We have not yet called enough witnesses who

5 could speak to that, but the burden of proof lies with

6 the Prosecutor. The document of 27 July which calls

7 him the commander of all armed forces in the territory

8 of several municipalities, we then need to call a

9 witness to speak whether Mr. Delalic was commander in

10 Jablanica, Prozor, Igman, et cetera, so that we can

11 prove that Mr. Delalic was not in Celebici, that he did

12 not enter the prison.

13 If the Prosecution agrees that Mr. Delalic

14 did not have responsibility of that kind, then we can

15 also now stipulate that he was not responsible for

16 these acts committed in Celebici.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have finished?

18 Please proceed to call your witnesses. I have told you

19 the principles under which the Trial Chamber receives

20 evidence. First, it has to be relevant; secondly, it

21 must be related to the charges before the Trial

22 Chamber. If you decide to introduce evidence which is

23 irrelevant, duplicating, then we have the right to

24 reject them and, therefore, it must have been wasted

25 both on the part of the registry which paid for the

Page 12042

1 witness to come and on the Trial Chamber which had the

2 duty, and sometimes a painful duty, of listening to

3 irrelevant evidence.

4 You can go ahead. Call your evidence.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I have already

6 told the Prosecutor the witness who was slated to come

7 on first has taken ill and so we want to call two

8 witnesses, Enver Redzepovic and Zihad Salihamidzic.

9 This would be out of order and we beg for your

10 indulgence on this because -- and I'm sorry my

11 colleague is trying to say something.

12 Your Honours, I call Mr. Enver Redzepovic as

13 the next Defence witness.


15 MS. McHENRY: Just to advise Your Honours,

16 Ms. Residovic did tell us a few minutes ago that the

17 witness that had been scheduled for today had a

18 headache and that she would be calling another

19 witness. The witness that she is now calling is the

20 witness that was supposed to testify last this week.

21 She has also given us some documents a few minutes ago

22 that we have never seen before. For that reason, we

23 have no objection and want to hurry things along, we

24 have no objection to her calling him at the present

25 time, but we will be requesting that cross-examination

Page 12043

1 be postponed until, at least, tomorrow morning since we

2 only found out a few minutes ago and haven't had a

3 chance to look at the documents, much less even be

4 prepared for the witness.

5 We can, of course, go on with the direct

6 testimony of the second witness, but under these

7 conditions, we think it would be unfair to make us

8 cross-examine when we are entirely unprepared. Thank

9 you.

10 JUDGE JAN: Is it the same gentleman who was

11 the TO commander on the 18th of April when he retired

12 and was replaced by Esad Ramic?

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: This was the first commander

14 of the new Territorial Defence.

15 JUDGE JAN: -- assembly and he was to

16 retire. And then the assembly recommended that Esad

17 Ramic be appointed as a commander. Is it the same

18 gentleman? So what can he tell us?

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, it is. This is the

20 first commander. Only one person was the first

21 commander of the new Territorial Defence and through

22 this witness, we will prove that, that the Territorial

23 Defence started functioning according to the new

24 regulations, something that the Prosecution was

25 questioning. Following him, Mr. Esad Ramic was

Page 12044

1 appointed commander.

2 JUDGE JAN: Do you want to postpone his

3 cross-examination? He's not a commander at the

4 relevant time.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE JAN: He is not the commander at the

7 relevant time.

8 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, obviously, I

9 don't know exactly what he's going to say.

10 JUDGE JAN: Let's hear him.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, I think the chief

12 of staff has said sufficient about the situation at the

13 time. Call the witness.

14 (The witness entered court)

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Swear the witness.

16 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

17 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

18 truth.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please take your seat.

20 Take your seat.


22 Q. Your Honours, may it please the court. Good

23 morning, sir. Good morning. Will you please introduce

24 yourself to the court by giving us your full name?

25 A. My name is Enver Redzepovic.

Page 12045

1 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, before I proceed with

2 questions, let me draw your attention to the fact that

3 our conversation needs to be interpreted, so wait until

4 the interpretation of my question into English has been

5 completed and answer that question only then. In that

6 way, the questions and answers will be entered in the

7 transcript and everyone present in the courtroom will

8 be able to follow what we are saying. Have you

9 understood what I have said?

10 A. On these headphones?

11 Q. Yes, you will be able to hear the sound of

12 the interpretation on those headphones. If necessary,

13 you can turn on the volume. Can you hear me?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Yes, thank you. Mr. Redzepovic, will you

16 tell us, please, where and when you were born?

17 A. I was born on the 5th of May, 1955, in Zemun,

18 the present day Yugoslavia.

19 Q. Thank you. What is your training and

20 education and your occupation?

21 A. In addition to primary and secondary school,

22 I graduated from the military academy, which I attended

23 from 1974 until 1978, in Belgrade.

24 Q. Where were you, Mr. Redzepovic, at the

25 beginning of April, 1992, when the war in

Page 12046

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina started?

2 A. When the war started in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

3 and if we consider the relevant date to be April the

4 6th, at the time, I was on duty as an officer in the

5 operations training department of the TO staff in

6 Konjic. Which means, I was employed in the TO staff of

7 Konjic.

8 Q. Thank you. Who was your superior commander

9 at the time?

10 A. When I started working there, and that was in

11 September, 1991, the commander was Ahmed Boric until

12 November, 1991. And as of November '91, Smajo Prevljak

13 became the commander until April, 1992.

14 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, did a reorganisation of the

15 TO occur sometime in April, 1992, so that it became the

16 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17 A. Yes, there was a reorganisation. In view of

18 the fact that the former republic had been promoted and

19 recognised by the international community, it had the

20 duty to form its own armed forces, so that on the 8th

21 of April, the presidency, at its meeting, transformed

22 the republic staff, which was subordinated to the SSNO

23 in Belgrade, the federal secretariat for national

24 defence, and it was promoted to become the staff of the

25 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 12047

1 Q. Very well, the Trial Chamber has already

2 heard about that from expert witnesses. My question

3 is, in accordance with those regulations, was the

4 Territorial Defence in Konjic reorganised and what is

5 the substance of that reorganisation?

6 A. There were no real substantive changes, but

7 it was only the system of control and command that was

8 reorganised. The units and the command remain the

9 same. The tasks, duties, obligations of individuals,

10 and groups more or less remained the same. But in the

11 system of control and command, some changes occurred in

12 the sense that we were no longer responsible and

13 accountable to the regime in Belgrade, but rather to

14 the structure of government inside as well as to the

15 military authority there.

16 Q. Tell me, Mr. Redzepovic, who was the

17 municipal staff subordinated to, from that day on?

18 A. The municipal staff, according to an earlier

19 instructions on organisation, and as stipulated by the

20 constitution and other military regulation, it was

21 subordinated to the district staff in Mostar. Since

22 the Mostar district staff was not operating, due to

23 well-known reasons, that is the occupying force was

24 present there with its military strength, we were

25 subordinated to the TO staff to the Republic of

Page 12048

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo.

2 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, were you appointed commander

3 of this new reorganised Territorial Defence?

4 A. I was. The assembly, of the municipal

5 assembly of Konjic, at its regular session on the 17th

6 of April, proposed me to be nominated and within a

7 period of three the five days, the ministry and the TO

8 staff actually appointed me commander of the municipal

9 staff of Konjic.

10 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, from the time when you were

11 appointed until the end of '92, when the fourth corps

12 was formed, the competence of the municipality, was it

13 limited to the nomination of commanders, whereas the

14 republican staff had the duty to actually make the

15 appointment?

16 A. Could you please repeat the question?

17 Q. You have just told the court that the

18 municipality agreed to propose you to that post,

19 whereas the actual appointment was carried out by the

20 Republican staff, was that the established practice

21 that remained in effect until the formation of the

22 fourth corps?

23 A. Due to numerous unfavourable circumstances,

24 within which we waged the defensive war in

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that was the practice that remained

Page 12049

1 in effect until the corps was formed in the region of

2 Herzegovina, that is the fourth corps. After that, the

3 fourth corps appointed commanders for its zones of

4 responsibility.

5 Q. When you became commander of the municipal

6 staff, tell me, Mr. Redzepovic, were there any Green

7 Berets or the Patriotic League in the municipality?

8 A. There were no Green Berets, nor a Patriotic

9 League. And I hadn't heard about them, nor did I have

10 any occasion to meet any member of the Green Berets or

11 the Patriotic League.

12 Q. Will you tell me, during the time you were

13 commander in Konjic Municipality, was a general

14 mobilisation proclaimed?

15 A. A general mobilisation was proclaimed at the

16 level of the Republic in June, in June, as far as I can

17 recall. But instructions on the organisation and use

18 of TO staffs, drafted by the ministry of defence and TO

19 staff and which was forwarded to us, and on the basis

20 of which we acted, gave us the opportunity to carry out

21 a mobilisation even before the mobilisation was

22 officially proclaimed at the level of the Republic,

23 which we in fact did.

24 Q. Can you tell me to what kind of units,

25 defensive units, were people mobilised to, after the

Page 12050

1 mobilisation was proclaimed.

2 A. When we proclaimed the mobilisation, we

3 encountered a large number of problems. One of them

4 was that people, members of our units of Serb ethnic

5 origin, boycotted the mobilisation and refused to join

6 the Territorial Defence forces formed by the legal

7 state of Bosnia-Herzegovina. A second problem was that

8 in the course of the mobilisation, we were unable to

9 distribute arms, ammunition, equipment and everything

10 else that any soldier should have, soldier and officer

11 immediately, and this was one of the greatest problems

12 we had, both at the beginning and later on during the

13 war. And a series of other problems, which I need not

14 list, but these were the most important ones.

15 Q. Thank you for explaining this. Mr.

16 Redzepovic, tell us, as a commander, did you try to

17 deal with the problems with the Serb population in a

18 peaceful manner?

19 A. Certainly. If the persons who held various

20 positions testify here, truthfully and frankly, they

21 will confirm that we did our best to preserve the multi

22 ethnic population and to organise them to defend the

23 territory of Konjic Municipality. Those efforts,

24 however, were fruitless.

25 Q. Who constituted the defensive forces of

Page 12051

1 Konjic Municipality while you were the commander?

2 A. During my term of office, we had within our

3 defensive forces, units and the TO staff and the

4 Croatian Defence Council. Those were the military

5 forces, plus, among the police forces, the MUP which

6 was there within the territory of Konjic Municipality.

7 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, while you were the commander,

8 did a representative of the Republican staff come to

9 Konjic to assist you in organising the defence under

10 these unexpected wartime conditions?

11 A. Yes, that is correct. A man came from the

12 republic staff, his name was Dzambasevic, Asim

13 Dzambasevic, and this was probably a reaction to our

14 request while the communications were still functional,

15 we asked the Republic staff to help us in the practical

16 organisation and in finding our way around in view of

17 the unexpected nature of the tasks confronting us. In

18 the second half of April, Mr. Dzambasevic came to our

19 staff, to our headquarters, and his assistance was

20 invaluable.

21 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, did attacks and killings

22 start while you were still commander?

23 A. Yes, they did. And the first attacks were

24 carried out in the region of Ljubljana, where two of

25 our members were killed, one was from the TO staff and

Page 12052

1 the other from the HVO. Our member was -- our member's

2 name was Alic and the HVO's member name was Azinovic

3 and this occurred somewhere around the 20th of April.

4 Using small arms, these two men were killed and the

5 first attacks on Konjic, the first artillery attacks,

6 were carried out at the beginning of May.

7 Q. Were you a witness of the fact that the

8 authorities in Konjic sought to act in accordance with

9 the regulations and to protect the whole population?

10 A. I am. I am a witness and I claim that all

11 the bodies, both civilian and military worked and did

12 their best to work in line with the rules and

13 regulations, which also exist for the circumstances of

14 war.

15 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that one of the

16 elements of the defensive forces was the HVO, the

17 Croatian Defence Council, will you please tell me

18 whether the HVO was a well-organised structure in

19 Konjic?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE JAN: Why are you going into that field

22 again?

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: (Microphone not on).

24 JUDGE JAN: Please ask the next question. Go

25 into another field.

Page 12053


2 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, did you personally need

3 permission from the HVO to be able to leave the city?

4 A. Yes. And the procedure was as follows --

5 Q. That is not necessary, Mr. Redzepovic, you

6 need not explain to us the procedure because the Trial

7 Chamber is already aware of that.

8 Is it true that upon arrival to The Hague,

9 you gave me a copy of the permit on the basis of which

10 you were able to leave the town? If you did, I should

11 like to show you that permit, so that we can see what

12 you needed to leave the town. Can it be marked for

13 identification, please, and shown to the witness?

14 A. Yes, that is the permit and it is only with

15 this permit that I was able to leave Konjic. For which

16 I needed a permit of this particular kind.

17 Q. Since this is a document which is

18 illustrative of certain competencies in the Town of

19 Konjic and is relevant from the standpoint of

20 responsibility, the witness has identified it and I

21 tender it into evidence.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Whose responsibility is

23 it meant for?

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: The responsibility for

25 allowing people to leave the town was with the HVO, one

Page 12054

1 of the defence forces of Konjic.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There's nothing in this

3 about HVO's responsibility. If you are saying that

4 someone needed a permit to travel outside, I can

5 understand, it does not go to the responsibility of

6 anyone who is involved in this litigation.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the prosecution

8 has produced some evidence of the international

9 monitoring commission about the split authority over

10 Celebici, so you may get a more complete picture on who

11 controlled which segment of the authority in the area.

12 For instance, the prosecution has offered through their

13 expert evidence, some evidence in that regard, so now

14 we can further elucidate the HVO role.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I have no intention of

16 interrupting your train of thought. When you are

17 saying that this illustrates responsibility, you should

18 now show whose responsibility it was, not this

19 witness. In fact, it restricted his movements, unless

20 he had this. That is what you are saying. And if he

21 hadn't this permit, he had no right to move. So it's

22 not a matter of his responsibility. And the competence

23 does not lay in his own evidence, so why do you bring

24 it in, in order to show that his movement was

25 restricted because of the authority exercised by some

Page 12055

1 other persons? This is all you need to do, but not of

2 what responsibility you are trying to bring into it.

3 As I have always said, one should understand the case

4 you are presenting and present it properly. While I

5 pass it or not, I did not know you are making so many

6 errors, I just leave you to carry on. We'll admit it

7 as a permit enabling him to travel outside the city,

8 that's all, not that it showed any responsibility on

9 his part.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

11 THE REGISTRAR: This is Defence Exhibit

12 D 176/1.


14 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, at the time when you were

15 commander, did the Territorial Defence have, at that

16 time, its own military police and if it did not, who

17 did they rely on?

18 A. At the time when I was a commander, the

19 Territorial Defence did not have its own military

20 police. And the police and security affairs were

21 handled, and which we needed, by the official MUP. And

22 it was the HVO that had a special police unit. And

23 this is how we solved the problem of the military

24 police. We went to the HVO and their police force.

25 And it was staffed by both Croats and Muslims, so it

Page 12056

1 was mixed, and this is why we trusted and had

2 confidence in this police.

3 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, while you were commander of

4 the TO headquarters, were certain military facilities,

5 in the territorial Konjic Municipality, come under your

6 control?

7 A. Yes. The first military facility, which we

8 as an army, that is a Territorial Defence of the

9 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, placed under our

10 control, was a military plant, Igman. This was a plant

11 which produced ordnance.

12 JUDGE JAN: We know about that.


14 Q. And what was the other facility, the next

15 facility?

16 A. The other military facility was the Celebici

17 warehouse, where certain amount of materiel was being

18 stored and, in principle, this was only a warehouse, a

19 depot.

20 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, can you say who took part in

21 taking control -- taking over the Celebici barracks

22 from the former JNA?

23 A. Both in taking over the Celebici depot and

24 the Igman plant were the Territorial Defence and the

25 MUP of Konjic.

Page 12057

1 Q. Were these facilities taken over without use

2 of force?

3 A. In the process of taking control of these

4 facilities, no force was used, physical, military or

5 otherwise. All the facilities were taken over by

6 agreement and in accordance with requests by both

7 civilian and military leadership which were appropriate

8 for the extraordinary circumstances in which we had

9 found ourselves.

10 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, do you know where the weapons

11 which were found in the Celebici barracks were taken?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE JAN: We have evidence on that. We

14 already have evidence on that, that they were taken to

15 a farm and a house belonging to a sister of Mr. Zejnil

16 Delalic. Why do you want to cover the same field?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: It is correct, Your Honours,

18 that we are revisiting the same issue, but those are

19 relevant facts and we believe that it may be useful to

20 hear them again.

21 JUDGE JAN: We are rehearing the same

22 evidence. Repetition doesn't make a fact true.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, there is still

24 some controversy there because the Prosecution claims

25 that Zejnil Delalic took over the control of Celebici

Page 12058

1 and turned it into a prison and this is a relevant

2 fact.

3 JUDGE JAN: A document was recovered from

4 Inda-Bau where it was said that Mr. Zejnil Delalic

5 wrote in his own handwriting, "I liberated Celebici and

6 I was responsible for the camp and my own brothers

7 being detained." The Prosecution is relying upon

8 that. The evidence is there that Cerovac told us that

9 he was part of the operation that took over Celebici

10 and that --

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Exactly, Your Honours.

12 Exactly.

13 JUDGE JAN: You already have evidence from

14 Cerovac on that.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, but you agree too that

16 this is a crucial fact. If there is a witness who can

17 reconfirm the fact, it is repeated, but it does not

18 lose any relevance. I think that it continues to be

19 extremely relevant to your eventual judgement.

20 JUDGE JAN: It was a state prison, Celebici.

21 It wasn't a private prison of Mr. Zejnil Delalic. The

22 prison must have been set up by state authority. Your

23 case is that Zejnil Delalic did not occupy, as a

24 coordinator, any position of authority. He did not

25 occupy any position, as TG commander, in setting up the

Page 12059

1 prison.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Try and go over the

3 evidence of Hadzihuseinovic, the president of the

4 municipal assembly. He gave a lot of evidence as to

5 how the Celebici barracks was handed over to them. His

6 evidence is very clear, so I don't see what that has to

7 do by leading any of the evidence, except even if this

8 witness is saying that he was a member of the team

9 which liberated it, which took it over, it would not be

10 strong enough over what the president has stated and

11 stated very clearly.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: He was commander of the

13 municipal headquarters, and the credibility of every

14 statement and its forcefulness sometimes can be

15 reconfirmed from another angle, from another person who

16 was personally involved. I think that all this will

17 assist you in evaluating the Prosecution's

18 allegations.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He stated how the

20 officer in charge of that place came to him to discuss

21 how he could peacefully hand it over, and it is a

22 peaceful hand-over that this witness is telling us.

23 What difference does it make to what has already been

24 given in evidence? Cerovac also has given evidence on

25 the same thing, two crucial witnesses.

Page 12060

1 JUDGE JAN: Cerovac also took part in that

2 operation.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. You say, Your Honours,

4 that this is a fact, that this has been confirmed

5 without any dispute how these barracks were taken

6 over. If that is what you're saying, I'm not going to

7 ask any questions of this witness, but what the Defence

8 has to also take into account are all these Inda-Bau

9 documents, and we need to clarify these issues as much

10 as we can.

11 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, did the commander of the

12 municipal defence headquarters change in late April and

13 early May? In other words, did you step down from that

14 position and who took over for you?

15 A. Since at the time when I had taken over this

16 duty, there were no other better qualified persons, and

17 I was the person who had the most organisational skills

18 and who was the most appropriate person. In my

19 training, I focused on anti-aircraft defence. This was

20 the focus of my work throughout my career.

21 During the period when I was a commander,

22 Mr. Esad Ramic volunteered. He had the same rank. He

23 was a captain and his speciality was ground combat. He

24 was a better qualified person so he replaced me as the

25 commander in late April, in fact, it was on May 1,

Page 12061

1 whereas I took over the duties of the anti-aircraft

2 defences, which is my own speciality, as a commissioned

3 officer, within the organisation of combat.

4 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, do you know how Mr. Ramic was

5 appointed? Was he proposed by the war presidency and

6 appointed by the headquarters or --

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We have heard enough of

8 how it was done, how Esad Ramic was appointed.

9 A. It was done in the same way as with myself

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we are coming

11 back to the same problem. I note that I was warned by

12 Judge Jan during the testimony of General Pasalic. We

13 are relying on all that, but that seemed to not have

14 been enough for your decision. So we have to keep

15 coming back to this because you have turned down our

16 motion of no case, so if we thought that you had issues

17 you wanted us to call a defence --

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that your

19 contention?

20 JUDGE JAN: If you read the proceedings of

21 the assembly, the assembly had appointed Esad Ramic,

22 but your case is it is merely a nomination, it is not

23 an appointment. Before this witness came in, I said we

24 heard in this proceeding that this gentleman was the

25 commanding officer of the TO, then the reasons given in

Page 12062

1 assembly proceeding that he was to retire. And

2 Hadzihuseinovic was the president who was asked a few

3 questions about that also.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours, but this

5 is the first witness who testified to Esad Ramic being

6 appointed in the same way which means that he was

7 proposed by the war presidency and he was appointed by

8 the republican staff, so he's the first one who is

9 confirming that. This is what the witness just

10 testified to, he was present there.

11 JUDGE JAN: He has said why Esad Ramic was

12 appointed and he was not allowed to continue. He has

13 given his qualifications. He has given the

14 qualifications of Esad Ramic. He has not said anything

15 from where his appointment came and from where the

16 appointment of Esad Ramic came. He has been talking

17 about his qualifications and the qualifications of Esad

18 Ramic. That's what he was talking about, which we are

19 not interested in.


21 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, did you say, and if you did,

22 please repeat it, how was Mr. Esad Ramic appointed? I

23 heard your answer --

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please indicate how he

25 was appointed. Ask the witness how Esad Ramic was

Page 12063

1 appointed.


3 Q. How was Esad Ramic appointed? I heard your

4 answer but the court did not; could you please repeat

5 it?

6 A. My apologies for repeating this, Esad Ramic

7 was appointed by the ministry and the Territorial

8 Defence staff in Sarajevo. I proposed him at the

9 session of the war presidency of Konjic. In that

10 meeting, the change took place, that is, Esad Ramic was

11 supposed to take over the municipal staff and I was to

12 take over the anti-aircraft defences.

13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Redzepovic, were you

14 appointed to member of the joint command of the TO and

15 the HVO sometime in May?

16 A. Yes. From the very beginning, we endeavoured

17 to create a joint command together with the Croatian

18 Defence Council and finally we succeeded in doing so in

19 the month of May. We united both the commands and some

20 units and we established a joint command and did what

21 was needed in order to defend the joint territory. I

22 was appointed the chief officer in charge of the

23 anti-aircraft defences.

24 Q. While the joint command was operational, did

25 you ever change your duties as the commander of the

Page 12064

1 joint anti-aircraft defences?

2 A. I did not ever change my initial duties.

3 From the start to the end, I remained the officer in

4 charge of the anti-aircraft defences.

5 Q. Did you have any duties at that same time

6 with the municipal headquarters?

7 A. I also did have a duty in the municipal

8 staff; it was also to oversee the anti-aircraft

9 defences. I was officer in charge of the anti-aircraft

10 defences and also the commander of the anti-aircraft

11 unit which was not a big unit, but at least it did have

12 certain anti-aircraft weapons at its disposal.

13 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, while you were a member of

14 the joint command and the municipal staff and not the

15 commander, who issued you orders?

16 A. In this military organisation, there were

17 people who were authorised to issue orders and they

18 were called commanders, so it had two stages, battalion

19 and up and battalion and lower. The commander of the

20 municipal headquarters was a person who issued orders

21 to all officers in the headquarters and to all the

22 units which were subordinate to the headquarters.

23 Q. Now, a hypothetical question: If, in

24 addition to a commander's signature on a document,

25 there was a signature of a third person, what would be

Page 12065

1 the significance of such a signature for you as a

2 soldier?

3 A. I did not see any such orders. If I saw one,

4 maybe I could make a comment, but I cannot comment on

5 it because I have not seen such a document.

6 Q. Thank you. Mr. Redzepovic, since you were

7 the commander during the time when the Celebici

8 barracks were controlled, at the time when you were

9 commander, was there a decision adopted on the

10 establishment of a prison in Celebici?

11 A. While I was on this duty, the prison was not

12 established, even though the barracks itself were taken

13 control of during my position as commander. In other

14 words, nobody established the prison while I was on

15 duty, nor did I ever hear that somebody had established

16 it.

17 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, did you meet Mr. Zejnil

18 Delalic during this period?

19 A. Yes, on several occasions, I saw him. I had

20 not known him before that because I'm not from Konjic.

21 I moved to Konjic in 1991 after the war in Croatia and

22 I was stationed there.

23 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, as a commander and then as a

24 member of the joint command and the headquarters staff,

25 can you tell me whether Zejnil Delalic at any point in

Page 12066

1 1992 was a member of the joint command or the municipal

2 staff?

3 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic was never either a member

4 of the municipal staff or any unit within the defence

5 forces of the Konjic municipality. He had no duties

6 there and also he could not be a member of our units or

7 our headquarters because he was not on the mobilisation

8 list or the wartime mobilisation list. People who were

9 abroad, and he especially, he had been abroad for more

10 than 20 years, he was not on the mobilisation list. He

11 was not a soldier, so he could not have any duties in

12 the municipal staff.

13 Q. The court is aware of this. I'm not going to

14 ask you whether Mr. Delalic was appointed coordinator

15 at some point. As coordinator though, was Mr. Delalic

16 superior to you, to your unit or to the municipal

17 staff?

18 A. Since I was the commander of my own unit, I

19 never appointed Mr. Zejnil Delalic to a position of

20 coordinator and he never showed me any accreditation or

21 any document showing that he would be my superior

22 officer so that we had no official relations of my

23 being his commander or he being my commander during the

24 period of time when I was a commander. Mr. Asim

25 Dzambasevic was the person who was the representative

Page 12067

1 of the high command at the time.

2 Q. In April when you first met him and before he

3 went to Zagreb, did you know what his business was?

4 What did he engage in, actually?

5 A. When I met Zejnil Delalic, those were very

6 simple, short meetings at which I was only to state

7 what we required in terms of equipment, food. It was

8 made clear that he may be able to assist through his

9 contacts and through his ability. We needed such

10 assistance from different people given the situation in

11 which we were and given the fact that we did not have

12 any warehouses to rely on.

13 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, you are a person who was in

14 charge of the anti-aircraft defences, so you were a

15 field commander, not a staff commander. But was

16 Mr. Delalic, if you know, ever appointed to a position

17 of commander?

18 A. I never saw a specific document, an order,

19 but from my daily contacts with fellow officers, my

20 colleagues, I do have information that in late July or

21 early August he became commander of a tactical group,

22 which is a fact that surprised me because I know that

23 he was not a soldier and that he had no duties with our

24 own staff.

25 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me whether from this

Page 12068

1 time, you said late July, early August, Mr. Zejnil

2 Delalic as commander of the Tactical Group 1 was a

3 superior officer to you or to the municipal staff?

4 A. As a commander of Tactical Group, he could

5 not have been superior to the municipal staff of

6 Konjic, even though by orders of our own superior

7 command, we had a duty to provide Tactical Group 1 with

8 certain units, size of about 2 to 300 men. And in that

9 way, that was all of our involvement with Tactical

10 Group 1.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, would this be a

12 convenient moment to take a break?

13 JUDGE JAN: How long do you intend to take

14 with him?

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: A short period, maybe 15 or

16 20 more minutes.

17 JUDGE JAN: Ask him one question. When he

18 became commander of all formations, was his unit also

19 placed under the control? Ask him straight away.


21 Q. Was your unit, the anti-aircraft unit, your

22 light artillery, was it ever placed under the command

23 of the Tactical Group 1 commander? In other words, was

24 it subordinate to Zejnil Delalic as commander of

25 Tactical Group 1?

Page 12069

1 A. My anti-aircraft unit was not.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You said you were asked

3 by the supreme command to give him about 200 men of

4 your own army. What is the relationship between your

5 units and the TG-1 in respect of those men?

6 THE WITNESS: As far as the relationship is

7 concerned, the Tactical Group and all the units that

8 were part of it is established by the superior

9 command. At the same time, the superior command also

10 issues orders to the subordinate commands, such as the

11 municipal staff, to provide units, to provide a certain

12 number of forces and join it to the Tactical Group 1.

13 They are then subordinate to the commander of Tactical

14 Group.

15 As a municipal staff, we carried out the

16 order of the supreme command in Sarajevo, and we set

17 aside about 200 soldiers and officers as part of the

18 Tactical Group 1. At that time, the commander of

19 Tactical Group 1 was Mustafa Polutak, and this Tactical

20 Group command had the right to use only those men who

21 had joined the ranks of the Tactical Group 1.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. The Trial

23 Chamber will now rise and reassemble at noon.

24 --- Recess taken at 11.34 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 12.09 p.m.

Page 12070

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please advise the

2 witness.

3 (The witness entered court)

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind the witness is

5 still under oath.

6 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

7 are still under oath.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Ms.

9 Residovic.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, before the break, their

12 honours put some questions to you, so in that

13 connection, I should like to make an additional

14 question. Actually, you said that from among the units

15 of the municipal staff, subordinated to Mustafa

16 Polutak, 200 to 300 men were transferred under his

17 command. I want to ask you, the remaining mobilised

18 men, numbering 2 to 3,000 men, who were not

19 subordinated to Mr. Polutak, under whose command were

20 they?

21 A. According to the rules and regulations,

22 according to the rules of combat and all other

23 instructions regarding the separation of certain forces

24 to join a tactical group, the superior command issues

25 the appropriate order. Only those formation that come

Page 12071

1 under the tactical group are under the command of the

2 tactical group commander. The others, officers and

3 men, who stayed behind in the area of Konjic, for

4 instance, they remain under the command of the

5 municipal staff of Territorial Defence of Konjic, which

6 means that the tactical group has jurisdiction or the

7 command over only those formations which have become a

8 part of the tactical group. In this case, Tactical

9 Group 1.

10 The forces constituting the tactical group

11 remain within that tactical group for as long as the

12 need for this exists. Afterwards, they return to join

13 their former units. After a task has been

14 accomplished, the task for which the tactical group was

15 indeed formed. So a tactical group is of a temporary

16 nature and once it accomplishes its task, the units go

17 back under the command of their former commanders and

18 become an organic part of those former units.

19 Q. Thank you. This is, for me, an additional

20 clarification from a professional. Mr. Redzepovic,

21 since there is evidence before this Trial Chamber on

22 the unit of Gajret that was subordinated to Mr. Polutak

23 in the battle for Tinovo Brdo, tell me, after the

24 failure of this first attempt to lift the blockade, the

25 soldiers who participated in this operation and who

Page 12072

1 returned to Konjic, under whose command were they

2 placed?

3 A. They were immediately placed under the

4 command of the municipal staff because they actually

5 belong to that command and those units of the municipal

6 staff.

7 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mr. Redzepovic, where is

8 the Tactical Group 1 based? Do you know where it was

9 based?

10 A. On the basis of daily reports, I know that it

11 was based at Oranj, at Igman, at Pasaric. These were

12 the bases and these command posts probably changed

13 depending on needs and tasks.

14 Q. Mr. Redzepovic, you have already told us that

15 while you were the commander, there was no prison in

16 the Celebici barracks. Tell me, do you know whether a

17 part of the Celebici compound was, at a later stage,

18 used to detain persons who participated in combat

19 operations?

20 A. Within the territory of Konjic Municipality,

21 there was no prison of any kind. They didn't exist

22 from the previous period, nor were they subsequently

23 formed. Attached to the MUP, to the police, there is a

24 room for detention, for interviewing people who may

25 have done wrong or violated the law and where they can

Page 12073

1 be held in detention up to 24 hours. We call this

2 remand detention or a prison. This premise was big

3 enough to hold four to five men. In view of the fact

4 that there were captures during combat, captures of

5 armed rebels in large numbers, they could not be placed

6 in this detention of the police, but were placed in the

7 Celebici barracks where there were facilities for the

8 accommodation of personnel and where our own unit was

9 housed. Thank you.

10 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Redzepovic, after you

11 ceased being a commander, did you ever visit the

12 Celebici barracks? And my second question, did you

13 ever visit the prison?

14 A. I told the Celebici barracks a couple of days

15 later, after a special unit was accommodated there, a

16 special combat unit, which was to be used for certain

17 interventions --

18 Q. When was this please?

19 A. This was in April, end of April, perhaps.

20 And a second time, when I was formerly sworn in, I

21 don't remember exactly when that happened, but during

22 the swearing in ceremony, it took place in Celebici.

23 Those were the only times I visited Celebici. Because

24 my duties were such that they did not involve visiting

25 Celebici or seeking assistance there.

Page 12074

1 Q. Thank you. In view of what you have just

2 told the court, are you personally aware if Zejnil

3 Delalic had any kind of competence over the Celebici

4 prison?

5 A. I have already said that Zejnil Delalic was

6 not even on the list for mobilisation. That he was not

7 a soldier and that his role as commander came into

8 being when he took over command of Tactical Group 1. I

9 assume that he had no need to go to the Celebici

10 barracks.

11 Q. But you know that he had no authority over

12 the prison?

13 A. He did not.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Mr. Redzepovic.

15 Your Honours, I have completed my examination in-chief

16 of this witness.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination of

18 this witness?

19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: No cross-examination on

20 behalf of Mr. Mucic. Thank you.

21 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have a few

22 questions. And again, I have managed to keep my notes

23 on to one page.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Moran:

25 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

Page 12075

1 A. Good afternoon.

2 Q. Sir, like you, I was in my army's air defence

3 forces and so I am going to ask you some questions.

4 About organisation, I think that from hearing your

5 direct testimony, they were organised a lot like mine,

6 but I want to make sure because it has something to do

7 with the issues in this trial.

8 After May, when you became the commander of

9 the anti-aircraft forces and at the same time commander

10 of the -- or, excuse me, staff officer for the

11 anti-aircraft in the municipality, that's the time I

12 want to focus on. And if I ask a question that's not

13 clear, and sometimes I do that, please stop me and I'll

14 clear it up for you, okay. Sir, while you were -- when

15 you were in command of the anti-aircraft units, as a

16 commander, did you have the right in our own name to

17 issue orders to those troops on your own authority?

18 A. While I was a staff officer, that is when

19 I -- my command duties were terminated according to the

20 rules and regulations on which the military

21 organisation is based. I was only able to prepare

22 proposals to the commander regarding the execution of

23 his orders, as a specialist for anti-aircraft

24 defences.

25 Q. So you were basically the senior advisor on

Page 12076

1 anti-aircraft for the commander of the municipal

2 headquarters and his staff officer to aid him in doing

3 that, is that correct, sir?

4 A. Yes, to aid the commander and the chief of

5 staff, the deputy commander.

6 Q. And while you were the officer, in your job

7 as a staff officer, did you have the authority to issue

8 orders on your own authority? Could you on your own

9 authority issue orders to say the anti-tank troops?

10 JUDGE JAN: I don't think your question is

11 very clear.

12 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE JAN: I'll tell you why, there must be

14 certain type of orders which only the commander could

15 issue. And there could be certain type of orders which

16 to he had to issue to subordinate where to place his

17 anti-aircraft guns, how to go about -- these are orders

18 which he must be issuing himself on his own authority.

19 It depends upon the nature of the order.


21 Q. Sir, Judge Jan asked a good question. And

22 let me come right to the heart of that. Besides being

23 the staff officer, you had another job, didn't you, as

24 the actual commander of the air defence units?

25 A. The concept of commander is something very

Page 12077

1 important, very high up. I was lower than that. I was

2 commander of a unit and the unit is a small sized unit,

3 the size of a battery, and I was commander of that

4 sized unit. It's not really a commander's duty but a

5 chief of a group. As the chief of this unit, I could

6 issue orders only to my anti-aircraft unit.

7 Q. For instance, as Judge Jan has said, if you

8 were given a mission to defend Celebici from air

9 attack, you would have the authority to order those men

10 in that unit to set up their weapons at various places;

11 is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that was because of your role as the

14 commander of the anti-aircraft unit?

15 A. I could if I were to be given such an

16 assignment. If Celebici were a facility of exceptional

17 significance, then the anti-aircraft unit defends only

18 those facilities and units which are of exceptional

19 importance. It cannot defend everything, so the prison

20 in Celebici and Celebici itself were not a defence

21 facility of such importance for us to defend it.

22 Q. Yes, sir, and I just made that as an

23 example. But you would have the authority to position

24 those troops, order them to take part in air defence

25 because you were the commander of that unit?

Page 12078

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you had the authority as the commander of

3 the anti-aircraft forces to punish troops who refused

4 to obey orders or did other things that were wrong; is

5 that right, sir?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that is because, and simply because, you

8 were the commander as opposed to a deputy commander or

9 a staff officer; is that not correct, sir? Sir, you

10 have to say "yes" or "no." That lady over in front of

11 us is called a court reporter and she has to write down

12 everything we say.

13 A. Because I was the leader of a unit, I could

14 command that unit.

15 Q. As a deputy commander or as a staff officer,

16 you did not have the authority to command, did you?

17 A. As a staff officer, I could propose to the

18 chief of staff or the commander certain measures and to

19 participate in the drafting of his order for the use of

20 the anti-aircraft units.

21 Q. Okay. Sir, one thing you said after we came

22 back from the break, you mentioned, and I may not have

23 understood it when you were answering some questions

24 from Ms. Residovic, you mentioned that there were other

25 units on the Celebici barracks other than just the

Page 12079

1 prison; did I understand that right, sir?

2 A. That is right. We didn't have such

3 facilities. At the time, the army was in their houses,

4 each individual in his own home, and according to the

5 deployment plan, units would form and rally at a

6 particular place, at a particular time. This was a

7 great problem for us regarding the preservation of

8 combat readiness of the units. That's why we badly

9 needed a facility of a barracks type, like a barracks,

10 where we would have a fully prepared unit for immediate

11 engagement in the areas where the threat existed.

12 In that sense, we sought to form the first

13 units which would live the life of soldiers in

14 barracks. The prison as such or a premise where

15 prisoners were held occurred due to circumstances of

16 the appearance of a large number of captured rebels who

17 had, under arms, fought against Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Q. Do I understand correctly that at the time

19 that the prison was operating at Celebici, there were

20 also other units that were using and assigned to the

21 Celebici barracks?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Sir, do you know who was in overall command

24 of the camp at the time, the barracks?

25 A. I cannot recall with precision, but they were

Page 12080

1 the leaders of units or commanders of units because

2 there wasn't much space for accommodation. This was a

3 small unit and they changed. They took turns in the

4 barracks. For instance, if there was one company, the

5 company leader would be the commander of the barracks.

6 For the next seven days or fifteen days, another unit

7 would be there and then the commander of that unit

8 would be in command of the barracks.

9 Q. Sir, the person who was in command of that

10 company was the person who was in overall command of

11 Celebici and the person who was in charge of overall

12 security for Celebici; is that correct, sir?

13 JUDGE JAN: Again, the question is not very

14 clear. Apparently the Celebici facility was divided

15 into two parts, one being used for the prison and the

16 other for stationing of the troops. Your question is a

17 person who was in charge of those troops which were

18 stationed there was also in charge of the prison. Is

19 that your question?

20 MR. MORAN: No, Your Honour. My question is

21 someone in overall command of the entire facility,

22 everything that is there, the prison and the troops

23 that were there.

24 JUDGE JAN: It was in two parts, the prison

25 and a depot or a station for the troops. You ask him

Page 12081

1 about that.


3 Q. You heard Judge Jan's --

4 A. The judge is completely right.

5 Q. Was there somebody who was in charge of

6 security for the entire camp or was that also divided

7 into two different functions?

8 JUDGE JAN: Learned counsel means for the

9 prison there was separate security or there was only

10 one security arrangement for both portions of the

11 Celebici set-up.


13 Q. Let me get right to the heart of it.

14 A. Separately, separately. There was separate

15 security.

16 Q. There is a fence around the model. As you

17 can see and as you know, there's a fence around the

18 barracks. Who was in charge of securing that fence to

19 make sure no one entered the prison or the barracks

20 without permission? Was that a shared responsibility

21 or did some one unit have responsibility to keep people

22 out? If you don't know, you don't know.

23 A. I'm not quite sure and I cannot answer this

24 question. For a time, responsibility was shared.

25 There was a special unit to provide security and

Page 12082

1 another was combat-ready. In a different period of

2 time, it was the same unit responsible both for the

3 security of the barracks compound and for the unit

4 itself.

5 Q. Okay. So the unit that was, for lack of a

6 better phrase, the tenant unit, the unit that moved in

7 and out, that unit would be responsible for the

8 security of the large exterior perimeter?

9 A. Yes. Sometimes it was the same unit and

10 sometimes other units that provided security. It

11 wasn't always one in the same unit.

12 Q. And that would be different from the prison

13 staff?

14 A. No.

15 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, Your

16 Honour. I'll pass the witness.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any further questions?

18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, the Defence of

19 Esad Landzo has no questions of this witness.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions from the

21 Prosecution, please?

22 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, we do have

23 some questions, but because of the extremely late

24 notice that this witness was going to be called today,

25 we would be asking for some sort of recess for

Page 12083

1 cross-examination and that we just proceed with the

2 witness --

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can't you cross-examine

4 on what he has said here?

5 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, I can start,

6 but there's also additional research that we would like

7 to do to try to find out additional information that

8 may be relevant, and I would wish to have that

9 information before me before I cross-examine. I

10 believe that's, in fact, why we were supposed to get

11 the order of witnesses --

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: When, in fact, you are

13 unable to get it, that doesn't mean you cannot make use

14 of what answers have come out of the witness. We are

15 getting a little too rigid about how to conduct --

16 JUDGE JAN: The only document he has referred

17 to is his pass.

18 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, but it is

19 often the case that there are additional documents that

20 are relevant to a witness. If Your Honours wish me to

21 start, I will start now, but we may be requesting

22 additional time to do research and have the witness

23 recalled. But if Your Honours direct me to start, I

24 will certainly start now.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it's better you

Page 12084

1 start. I think you better learn how to take your

2 witnesses as they come because there isn't much he

3 could say which you might have not examined him from

4 other witnesses.


6 Q. Good morning, sir, or good afternoon. My

7 name is Theresa McHenry and I'm with the Prosecution

8 and I will be asking you some questions.

9 A. I'm ready.

10 Q. If you don't understand a question, sir,

11 please just tell me that. I will also tell you, sir,

12 that there are a number of questions, if not most of my

13 questions, that all you have to do is answer "yes" or

14 "no." So if you have already testified about

15 something or you don't need to go over what you have

16 stated again, then you don't need to explain your

17 answer, unless you think a "yes" or "no" is somehow an

18 unfair representation of the truth; do you understand

19 that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, sir, you would agree that because of the

22 extraordinary circumstances in Konjic, a lot was going

23 on, including with the military, that was not

24 prescribed for in regulations or the structures that

25 had originally been envisioned?

Page 12085

1 A. You speak very fast. Would you mind slowing

2 down just a little?

3 Q. Certainly, sir. Sir, you would agree that,

4 because of the extraordinary circumstances that Konjic

5 found itself in, many things were happening in Konjic

6 that were not as set out in regulations or the

7 structures that had been envisioned by the regulations;

8 would you agree with that, sir?

9 A. I agree and you can never anticipate in a war

10 what would happen. In other words, directions,

11 regulations, you cannot set them out in advance because

12 the war, as such, is a very complex thing. It was

13 always possible that something unforeseen and

14 unanticipated would occur.

15 Q. That's correct, sir. Thus, you would agree

16 that even until June of 1992, although the regulations

17 prescribed that the war presidency was not supposed to

18 have any involvement in the selection of the TO

19 commander, in fact, the war presidency continued to

20 nominate or select the TO commanders and, again,

21 because of the extraordinary circumstances; is that

22 correct, sir?

23 JUDGE JAN: There are two parts.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: I think that the witness

25 answered this question.

Page 12086

1 JUDGE JAN: Nominate, Hadzihuseinovic said

2 "Yes, we had done that with the commander." Appoint

3 is something different.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness responded twice

5 to this question. Thank you, Your Honour.

6 A. May I answer? The war presidency did not

7 appoint. It only proposed or nominated, whereas the

8 actual appointments were made by the command and

9 presidency in Sarajevo. In other words, the war

10 presidency in Konjic did not make appointments. The

11 situation in Konjic as of April was such that the

12 communications were not regular; here, I mean both the

13 traffic, telecommunications, radio communications and

14 all other communications. As early as April, Konjic

15 was already under blockade.


17 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that because of

18 the problems in communication, Konjic often had to take

19 decisions and act independently of Sarajevo?

20 JUDGE JAN: In what fields? You see, you're

21 referring to appointments. He has said no appointments

22 were made by the war presidency.

23 MS. McHENRY: I'm just referring to in

24 general, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE JAN: In general, but a particular

Page 12087

1 field, if you can. That would be better.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You've been here all

3 along, and both sides of the case, Prosecution and

4 Defence, have been consistent in the way these matters

5 were dealt with, whether it was sent to Sarajevo by

6 courier, whether it came through some other devious

7 means, they still sent to Sarajevo for confirmation.

8 They did it.


10 Q. Sir, is it the case that with respect to

11 various military matters, because of the communication

12 difficulties, Konjic sometimes had to make decisions

13 and act independently of Sarajevo; is that correct or

14 not correct or you don't know?

15 JUDGE JAN: It's too general. He has already

16 said every authority in the war presidency and of the

17 TO was acting within its own competence.


19 Q. Sir, let me ask you specifically. It is the

20 case that, pursuant to the regulations in May and June

21 of 1992, the war presidency was not supposed to be even

22 nominating commanders of the TO; is that correct?

23 A. The question is not quite clear to me. Could

24 you repeat it, please?

25 Q. Sir, if you don't know the answer to this

Page 12088

1 question, you can say "I don't know," but my question,

2 sir, is: You would agree that in May and June of 1992,

3 under the regulations, the war presidency had no role

4 in nominating commanders of the TO?

5 A. The war presidency took part in nomination,

6 in proposals. I cannot remember exactly up until which

7 date, but I think it may have been until May or June.

8 Q. Well, sir, do you know in May and June of

9 1992 what the regulations about the authority of war

10 presidencies were regarding the nomination of TO

11 commanders?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, that in May and

14 June of 1992, under the regulations, the war presidency

15 had no role in nominating TO commanders?

16 A. You know from before that Konjic was under

17 blockade and that the regulations or decrees with the

18 force of law, the law on the defence forces which were

19 adopted in May and June could not be implemented

20 instantly in the territories which could not receive

21 these new laws and regulations in a regular way.

22 I cannot exactly tell you when it was that we

23 received them, but I know that many of these

24 regulations were passed in May and June. And the

25 situation was such that the war presidency take the

Page 12089

1 role of the authority which would nominate members of

2 the TO staff for awhile longer.

3 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, you would also agree

4 with me that during this time when you were TO

5 commander, you considered yourself part of the war

6 presidency?

7 A. That is not correct.

8 Q. Sir, did you previously give a statement in

9 October of 1996 to a representative of the Office of

10 the Prosecutor?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Do you remember in your statement to the

13 Office of the Prosecutor referring to yourself and

14 others as "we in the war presidency"?

15 A. I do not believe that that is what I said.

16 In fact, I say that that is not how I put it, and I do

17 not know why you are putting these words to me which I

18 have never spoken.

19 Q. Well, sir, do you also remember whether or

20 not in your statement you specifically reported that

21 the commander of the TO headquarters was a

22 representative in the war presidency?

23 A. No, the commander of the civilian protection,

24 maybe this was mistranslated, but the commander of the

25 civilian protection is a member of the war presidency.

Page 12090

1 Q. Sir, during May -- let me move on. Sir, when

2 was Mr. Dzambasevic present in Konjic approximately? .

3 A. In the latter half of April, and I don't know

4 when exactly he left Konjic.

5 Q. But he could have left Konjic by the

6 beginning part of May; is that a fair statement?

7 A. I believe that that could be correct.

8 Q. Now, sir, you were the commander of the TO

9 when the Celebici barracks were taken over; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Would you agree with me that the take-over of

12 the barracks was a military operation?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Was it a civilian operation?

15 A. No, it was not an operation. "Operation"

16 imply much larger forces which are engaged in combat.

17 There was no combat here; there was no use of weapons

18 here. An agreement was reached and human lives were

19 saved. These barracks had no significance for the

20 aggressors either; so by mutual agreement, it was

21 turned over peacefully to the officers of our

22 Territorial Defence and to the representatives of the

23 MUP.

24 Q. Did I understand you to say that Celebici had

25 no military significance or did I misunderstand?

Page 12091

1 A. It had no great significance. When you talk

2 about significance, it could be tactical or strategic

3 or operational. This was a depot which warehoused

4 materiel. It had fuel and lubricants stored there.

5 The position of Celebici was such that it wasn't

6 strategically very important for the aggressor either.

7 In that respect, they were glad to turn over the

8 barracks, and here I mean by soldiers who had already

9 completed their military duty. But the Belgrade regime

10 had forced them to serve an additional three months as

11 members of the reserve which was not what they did

12 willingly. They were glad to be able to turn over the

13 barracks without a fight and this is what they did.

14 Q. The weapons stored in Celebici, were they not

15 of great military significance also? Sir, if you can

16 just answer with a "yes" or "no" or "I don't know,"

17 please do so.

18 A. The weapons which were warehoused in Celebici

19 were important for us because every rifle and every

20 bullet was important for us. We did not enough of that

21 and this is why it was important for us. But for the

22 aggressors who had tanks and aircraft, this was not

23 very significant.

24 Q. Sir, is it correct that because of the

25 extraordinary circumstances the decision to take over

Page 12092

1 the Celebici barracks was made by both civilian and

2 military authorities?

3 A. I just said a short while ago that both the

4 forces of the Territorial Defence, that is, the

5 officers, and the MUP forces and their commanders both

6 took part.

7 Q. Well, sir, did the civilian authorities have

8 any involvement whatsoever in deciding or requesting

9 that the barracks be taken over?

10 A. In any event, the coordination between the

11 civilian, military and police authorities did exist;

12 this was also necessary for a comprehensive preparation

13 for the combat operations which were anticipated and

14 which then took place in '92, '93 and '94. In any

15 event, we did cooperate with the civilian authorities.

16 Q. Sir, what role did Mr. Delalic play, if any,

17 in the take-over of the Celebici barracks?

18 A. Mr. Delalic did not take part in the take-over

19 of the Celebici barracks.

20 Q. Sir, is it your testimony that he did not

21 take any part whatsoever in the take-over of the

22 Celebici barracks?

23 A. He did not take any part, and I did not see

24 him at all, nor have I heard of him being a participant

25 of this action where the Celebici barracks were taken

Page 12093

1 over from the JNA.

2 Q. Were you present, sir, when the barracks were

3 taken over?

4 A. I was not, but an operations officer went

5 over there from my staff. His name is Midhat Cerovac.

6 Q. So if Mr. Delalic was present during the

7 take-over in any capacity whatsoever, you don't know

8 anything about it; is that correct?

9 A. The question is not clear to me.

10 Q. Sir, do I understand you that, as far as you

11 know, Mr. Delalic was not present during the take-over

12 of Celebici barracks?

13 A. Now you asked the question well. A moment

14 before, I think you tried to trick me which is not

15 fair. I already said that Mr. Delalic did not take

16 part in the take-over of Celebici barracks.

17 Q. Sir, I'm just trying to ask questions so that

18 the judges can evaluate what the truth is. I'm asking

19 the questions as best I can and I just ask you to

20 answer them fairly and as best you can.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is your intent. He

22 said he did not take part.

23 MS. McHENRY: That's right.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's what he said.

25 MS. McHENRY: When I asked him was correct --

Page 12094

1 well, let me just ask him.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't ask him that. He

3 has answered the question that he did not take part.

4 JUDGE JAN: He said that he was not present

5 at the time of the take-over, so how does he know who

6 was present there or not?

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And the reports to him

8 by his operations officer did not indicate that he took

9 part. This is what he said.

10 MS. McHENRY: If I'm not allowed to explore

11 it, I will move on, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE JAN: You can explore it if it's

13 relevant. He said he was not present on the occasion.

14 His chief of staff, Cerovac, was present, so the person

15 to answer that question is Cerovac.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has answered that.

17 MS. McHENRY: That's correct, Your Honour,

18 but this witness has testified about it in direct and

19 to the extent there's a discrepancy --

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are wasting the time

21 of the court. Go ahead and ask other questions, if

22 any. If a question has been answered, don't go

23 further, except if it is ambiguous, and this was not

24 ambiguous.

25 MS. McHENRY: If Your Honours direct me to go

Page 12095

1 forward, I will go forward.

2 Q. Sir, with respect to the document you were

3 shown, your authorisation which was signed by the HVO

4 commander, at the time that you received that

5 authorisation to travel, was the joint command in

6 existence at this time?

7 A. Yes, it was.

8 Q. Why didn't the joint command sign your

9 authorisation, sir, if you know?

10 A. I received permission for private affairs

11 from my superior command, that is, the TO headquarters

12 in Konjic. In order to cross over the territory

13 controlled by the HVO, on the basis of my previous

14 permit, a separate permit was issued to me by the HVO.

15 Without their permission, I would not be able to move

16 around in the territory controlled by the Croatian

17 Defence Council.

18 Q. So you had two permits, one from the TO

19 commander and one from the HVO; is that correct?

20 A. The permit which I received from my own

21 commander I had to turn in at the HVO headquarters, and

22 there I received a permit to move freely in the area

23 under their control.

24 Q. Sir, during the time --

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we'll break now

Page 12096

1 and reassemble at 2.30.

2 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.03 p.m.
























Page 12097

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE JAN: Are you finished with the

3 research of the witness' background?

4 MS. McHENRY: I was able to do as much as I

5 could during the lunch hour, which was of assistance.

6 (The witness entered court)

7 MS. McHENRY: May I proceed, Your Honour?

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may. You may

9 note that the witness is still under oath.

10 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

11 are still under oath.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is what you should

13 try and remember each time.


15 Q. Sir, you were shown a document, D-176, a

16 travel authorisation that you brought with you to The

17 Hague, do you know where the original to that document

18 is, sir?

19 A. I am not getting the interpretation quite

20 well. I didn't hear the question.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly repeat it again.

22 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour.

23 Q. Sir, you were shown during direct

24 examination, a document, D -- can you hear me now, sir?

25 A. Okay.

Page 12098

1 Q. You were shown a document, D-176, a travel

2 authorisation that you brought with you to The Hague.

3 Sir, do you know where the original of that document

4 is?

5 A. The original is at my home.

6 Q. Did you bring any other documents to The

7 Hague with you, dealing with the situation in Konjic in

8 1992?

9 A. I only brought a statement, the statement I

10 made for The Hague tribunal.

11 Q. Is that a statement you made to the office of

12 the Prosecutor or to the Defence, if you know?

13 A. It is a statement that I made to the office

14 of the Prosecutor and I did not give any statement to

15 the Defence.

16 Q. Now, sir, on a different matter, did I

17 understand you correctly to state that Mr. Delalic was

18 never a member of the TO?

19 A. Yes, you understood me well. Mr. Delalic was

20 not a member of the Territorial Defence, nor could he

21 be mobilised at the time I was there because, according

22 to the law, any person who was absent for more than a

23 month or two would be removed from the list, from the

24 records, and would no longer be subject to

25 mobilisation.

Page 12099

1 Q. Well, sir, are you stating that if someone

2 came, a Bosnian citizen, and wanted to volunteer for

3 the TO, he would not be permitted to do so?

4 A. Mr. Delalic was a citizen and an inhabitant

5 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but he was not on the

6 conscription list because he didn't have any call-up

7 papers because, according to our documents, he could

8 not be called up because he wasn't there. He wasn't in

9 Yugoslavia, he wasn't in Bosnia-Herzegovina and so on.

10 Q. Sir, my specific question was, is it your

11 testimony that if someone who was a Bosnian citizen

12 wanted to volunteer for the TO, if he wasn't on the

13 mobilisation list, he would not be permitted to become

14 a member of the TO? Is that what you're saying?

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is this a follow-up of

16 the question whether Delalic was a member?

17 THE WITNESS: He could volunteer.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's quite a different

19 situation from calling up somebody who is under

20 obligation to serve.

21 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, I

22 do understand that.

23 Q. Well, sir, do you know, and I am talking

24 about the time before he became commander of Tactical

25 Group 1, did Mr. Delalic ever volunteer to become a

Page 12100

1 member of the TO?

2 A. He did not.

3 Q. And before he became commander of Tactical

4 Group 1, did Mr. Delalic, to your knowledge, have any

5 military function or duties at all?

6 A. He did not.

7 Q. What was Mr. Delalic's role during the Oranj

8 Operation?

9 A. Regarding the Oranj Operation, though I was a

10 member of the staff, I did not participate in the

11 planning and organisation or preparation of that

12 operation. It was an operation that was conducted on

13 the ground and we had a stationary system of

14 anti-aircraft defence, which I was involved with and

15 this was my permanent task and that was my task before

16 the operation, during the operation and after the

17 operation. So that it was a permanent duty that I had.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The question was, what

19 was the role of Delalic during that operation, not your

20 own.

21 THE WITNESS: I didn't know and I don't know

22 the situation as regards to any role that he may have

23 had in that operation.

24 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

25 Q. Now, sir, am I correct that during the time

Page 12101

1 that he was coordinator, according to your

2 understanding, Mr. Delalic did not report to the war

3 presidency?

4 JUDGE JAN: How would he know?

5 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, I think he

6 has made a statement to that effect previously, so I am

7 asking him.

8 JUDGE JAN: He made a statement to --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

10 MS. McHENRY: The witness has previously made

11 statements about these things, which would indicate to

12 me that he does have some knowledge. Obviously, Your

13 Honour, if he doesn't have any knowledge, he can say,

14 "I don't know".

15 THE WITNESS: Okay. What is the question?


17 Q. Sir, am I correct that during the time that

18 he was coordinator, according to your understanding,

19 Mr. Delalic did not report to the war presidency?

20 A. I was not a member of the war presidency, nor

21 could I be present to be able to claim that he made any

22 statements or reported to the war presidency.

23 Therefore, I have no personal knowledge of that and

24 there's nothing I can say about that.

25 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that previously,

Page 12102

1 when you spoke with the Office of the Prosecutor, you

2 specifically reported that Mr. Delalic did not report

3 to the war presidency?

4 A. It is true that he did not report to the war

5 presidency at the meetings that I attended.

6 Q. Now, sir, would you agree that in May and

7 June of 1992, the Bosnian army or the TO was not very

8 organised?

9 A. Regarding the process of organisation and

10 formation of the Territorial Defence, in view of the

11 fact that we had to start from scratch, and that the

12 process required a considerable amount of time, in some

13 countries it takes much longer to form an army.

14 Regarding the period you're referring to, the period of

15 May and June, it is natural that the situation could

16 not be organised perfectly, nor could it function

17 perfectly. Similar problems occur in many other armies

18 and, therefore, in our own as well.

19 Q. I take it, then, that the answer is, "yes",

20 you would agree with me that for the reasons you've

21 just explained, the army was not very organised during

22 that period?

23 JUDGE JAN: Perhaps you're talking from

24 different angles. Probably you're talking about

25 organisation. He's probably thinking of battalions,

Page 12103

1 command structure in the sense, but that there were no

2 battalions, there were no brigades, something like

3 that. Maybe you're talking from different angles all

4 together.

5 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, that's open for

6 interpretation, but the witness did agree with me and I

7 am just trying to get a simple yes or no.

8 JUDGE JAN: Given what respect, from your

9 angle or from his angle? And certainly the army could

10 take much longer from side of organise. He's probably

11 thinking of terms of brigades, corps, in that sense.


13 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that in May and

14 June of 1992, the structure of the Bosnian army was not

15 very organised because it was in the process of being

16 created?

17 A. The army was in the process of being created,

18 but even in that process, the organisation functioned,

19 which made for steady and constant progress and

20 development. Therefore, it acted as an organised

21 whole, regardless of the problems we encountered.

22 Q. Sir, after you stepped down as TO commander,

23 in other words, when you were just involved in the

24 anti-aircraft defence, did you have occasion to see

25 orders signed by the joint command?

Page 12104

1 A. Some orders, which were addressed to me, I

2 did see. But the orders that were not submitted to me

3 and which I didn't have to receive, I probably didn't

4 see.

5 Q. May I ask that the witness be shown a copy of

6 Prosecution Exhibit 210. And I'll ask that the

7 English, with the usher's assistance, if the English

8 could be put on the ELMO and the Bosnian version given

9 to the witness.

10 Now, sir, before you -- before I ask you

11 about the document, is it the case that you ever saw

12 documents signed by the joint command or the head of

13 the TO and also signed by Mr. Delalic?

14 A. This document does not originate from the

15 joint command. This document comes from the municipal

16 staff of the TO. On this document we can see --

17 Q. Let me just ask you, have you ever seen this

18 document before?

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you looked at the

20 date of the documents?

21 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, 24th of June.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What capacity do you

23 think he would have seen it?

24 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, it's

25 directed to him with a copy to him, so let me just ask,

Page 12105

1 sir.

2 Q. Sir, in 1992, did you ever see this document?

3 A. I did not see this document. I did not

4 receive this document. But, if I need to answer any

5 questions about it, I would be glad to.

6 Q. Well, sir, did you -- was there ever any

7 change in your duties as is reflected in this

8 document?

9 A. You didn't ask me a proper question, was

10 there a change in my duties?

11 Q. Yes, sir, was there ever a change in your

12 duties?

13 A. There were no changes, I continued to engage

14 in anti-aircraft defence.

15 Q. Well, let me ask you specifically, sir, was

16 -- is your title head of air defence when you first --

17 what was your title when you first stepped down as TO

18 commander, within the TO staff, what was your title?

19 A. Within the Territorial Defence staff, I held

20 the position of officer in the joint command that is

21 head of anti-air defences. In view of the fact that

22 there was a shortage of such personnel, I continued to

23 perform the duty of leader of the anti-aircraft

24 battery.

25 Q. And was there a time when you stopped

Page 12106

1 fulfilling one or both of those functions?

2 A. I stopped performing the function in the

3 municipal staff. That is the function of head of

4 anti-air defence and I was appointed to the position of

5 officer, in other words, an assistant.

6 Q. And when, approximately, did that change in

7 function occur?

8 A. Did you ask me until when?

9 Q. No, approximately, when was it that you

10 stopped performing the function of head of anti-air

11 defence and became the assistant?

12 A. I cannot recall exactly the date, but if this

13 document, if this paper is a document, then it could

14 have happened in the month of July, but I cannot recall

15 myself, the date.

16 Q. Sir, do I understand that the -- you are

17 familiar with the contents of this document, but you

18 never saw the document itself, is that a fair

19 statement?

20 A. I remained head of anti-air defences in the

21 joint command. And my duty of officer for anti-air

22 defence and unit leader remained in the municipal

23 staff. I continue to hold that post.

24 Q. I'm sorry, sir, I don't understand. Would

25 you agree with me that this document, what is stated in

Page 12107

1 this document reflects the reality of what happened?

2 In other words, you, you were no longer, within the

3 headquarters of the TO, head of air defence?

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness has answered the

5 question.

6 THE WITNESS: I said that I continued to hold

7 the duty of head of anti-air defence in the joint

8 command. And this is a function that meant that I had

9 competencies both over the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

10 and the Croatian defence council. And I needed

11 somebody to assist me in performing these duties as I

12 couldn't cover it all, another person was appointed,

13 his name is Esad Pajic, who in the ensuing period

14 assisted me in organising the system of anti-air

15 defences.

16 Q. Sir, if you can, I am going to ask you a

17 question, and if you could just answer yes or no, that

18 would be helpful. Is it correct, that at some point,

19 in the summer of 1992, within the TO command, you were

20 removed as head of air defence? Is that correct, sir,

21 if so, if you could just please say yes?

22 A. That is not correct. I continued to engage

23 in these same activities.

24 Q. Within the staff of the TO command?

25 A. Also within the staff and within the joint

Page 12108

1 command.

2 Q. So, if I understand you -- well, you have

3 previously stated where there was a time where you no

4 longer had the function of head of -- head of air

5 defence and you became an assistant, correct?

6 A. I don't know whether you understand clearly

7 the organisation and the formation of the joint command

8 as such. If that is not clear to you, then you cannot

9 get the real answer from me. You cannot understand me.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Were you at any time

11 removed as head of the air command?

12 A. I didn't stop performing that duty.


14 Q. Sir, just a few minutes ago, you testified

15 about a point, whose date you didn't remember exactly.

16 When you ceased having the function of head of air

17 defence and you became an assistant; did you say that

18 just a few minutes ago?

19 A. You see, there are two commands. You have

20 the joint command and then you have the command within

21 the headquarters and the command in the HVO. My

22 function was head of air defence in the joint command.

23 At that time, when the joint command was formed, we had

24 to find somebody who would perform the same duty in the

25 municipal TO staff. In the HVO army too, they had

Page 12109

1 their own head of air defence with whom I cooperated.

2 His name was Matkovic, if that means anything to you.

3 Q. Sir, is it your testimony that, in the

4 beginning, you were fulfilling the function of head of

5 air defence for both the joint command and the TO

6 command, and then at some point, you were relieved of

7 your duty as head of air defence within the TO command;

8 is that correct? Although we understand you still

9 testify you fulfilled that duty in the joint command,

10 but is it correct that you were removed from your

11 function as head of air defence within the TO command?

12 A. When I was shown confidence and appointed to

13 head of air defences in the joint command, my position

14 was vacated and another person was appointed to fill in

15 that vacancy in the municipal staff, whereas I remained

16 an officer and the leader of the unit operating in that

17 area.

18 Q. Sir, has someone suggested to you that you

19 should not answer questions with a "yes" or "no"?

20 JUDGE JAN: Most of your witnesses are not

21 answering questions with "yes" or "no." If he does

22 that, why should you object?

23 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I just asked him a

24 question. If he can answer the question --

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- insist also matters

Page 12110

1 explanatory to your questions. Does he not explain

2 your question?

3 MS. McHENRY: I think that he has confirmed

4 it, but since he refuses to say "yes," I'm wondering if

5 maybe there's something I don't understand. That's one

6 of the reason why I ask "yes" or "no" questions so that

7 there can be no confusion.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has explained what

9 his position is and I think that should be sufficient.


11 Q. Sir, do you recognise Mr. Ramic's signature

12 on this document?

13 A. I do.

14 MS. McHENRY: I would ask that this document

15 be admitted, since the witness has recognised the

16 signature; Prosecution Exhibit 210.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is it meant for?

18 What is it purported to show?

19 MS. McHENRY: Among other things, it would

20 show Mr. Delalic's involvement in things other than

21 logistics and in things other than where he is serving

22 as a witness between different parties.

23 JUDGE JAN: I have not been able to see the

24 document clearly, but it relates to civil defence, and

25 as a coordinator, he was concerned.

Page 12111

1 MS. McHENRY: Certainly, Your Honours --

2 JUDGE JAN: If the signatures are there, that

3 would explain that orders of the joint command, which

4 were signed, both by the HVO and the TO commanders,

5 which also related to some function of the war

6 presidency, he did sign those orders.

7 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, it is

8 certainly going to be up to Your Honours to determine

9 the relevance. The Prosecution believes this document

10 is extremely relevant, and we are prepared to argue its

11 relevance now or later, but given that the witness

12 has --

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That he signed the

14 documents relating to some other things, other than

15 coordinating, is it?

16 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, I can give

17 Your Honours extra copies, this is not a document

18 signed by the joint command and it's not a document --

19 JUDGE JAN: But does it relate to civil

20 defence?

21 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, the Prosecution --

22 and, in fact, I would point out that the expert

23 witnesses indicated that it did not, and these

24 documents indicated that Mr. Delalic had a role

25 different than either logistics or simple coordination

Page 12112

1 of the war presidency.

2 JUDGE JAN: I'm just asking you, does it

3 relate to civil defence?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

5 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, the Prosecution

6 believes that this document which states, "Due to

7 failure to follow orders, tardiness and lack of

8 initiative while holding the post, Enver Redzepovic is

9 relieved of duty as head of air defence and assigned to

10 the post of air defence light artillery battery

11 commander." The Prosecution would state that although

12 in this time period, there is always some overlap

13 between all military and all civilian functions, this

14 is not consistent with a document that would normally

15 be given to the war presidency, and for that reason we

16 seek to have it admitted into evidence.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I object. I

18 don't see what is the grounds for the admission of this

19 document. The witness did not receive it. He did not

20 confirm the truth of the contents, and all the

21 allegations made are contrary to what has been said by

22 witnesses. The Prosecution has already tendered this

23 document for its limited scope and it was admitted, to

24 a limited extent, on the basis of the expert witness,

25 the historian. I don't see what other grounds for the

Page 12113

1 admission of this document and especially through this

2 witness if he hasn't recognised it.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you still keen on

4 tendering it through him. Who said he did not receive

5 it and did not see it before now.

6 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe it may

7 be admitted on the basis that he recognised Mr. Ramic's

8 signature.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Recognising somebody's

10 signature does not make it admissible. Merely because

11 he recognises his signature, I don't think that has

12 anything to do with admissibility at all. I don't

13 think it can be admitted through him.

14 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Now, sir, you also testified about tactical

16 groups, and you testified that you knew where the

17 headquarters of Tactical Group 1 were because you were

18 present at the daily reports. Who gave the daily

19 reports?

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Excuse me. The witness

21 didn't say that.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the witness,

23 please.


25 Q. Sir, let me just ask you: Is it the case

Page 12114

1 that you testified where the headquarters of Tactical

2 Group 1 were, and you stated that you knew that because

3 of the daily reports; is that correct or did I

4 misunderstand?

5 A. I only knew based on different kinds of

6 stories and conversations that there was a command

7 post, that is, that the command post of Tactical Group

8 1 as in Ottoman, Pazaric, Igman, Hadzici. However, I

9 was never there. I never gave a report to the

10 commander of the Tactical Group. I did not say

11 anything like that so I would appreciate it if these

12 words would not be quoted as mine.

13 Q. Let me say, sir, that I'm trying to just

14 state what I understood you to say. If somehow I have

15 misunderstood or there's been a problem with

16 interpretation, of course, I want you to correct me.

17 If at any point I talk about something you testified

18 about and it's not a correct representation of what you

19 said, please, as you have just done, stop me.

20 Now, if I understood you correctly, you

21 testified that you never saw any orders from the

22 supreme command appointing Mr. Delalic as commander of

23 Tactical Group 1. My question is: Did you ever see

24 any orders from the supreme command dealing in any way

25 with Tactical Group 1 during the time that Mr. Delalic

Page 12115

1 was commander of that Tactical Group?

2 A. I did not see them.

3 Q. Did you ever see any orders signed by

4 Mr. Delalic directed to the Konjic municipal

5 headquarters?

6 A. I did not see those. I needed to have worked

7 in the office in order to be able to see such

8 documents, so this would have been the only way I could

9 see any documents coming from the TG command to the

10 municipal staff.

11 Q. During the time that Mr. Delalic was

12 commander of Tactical Group 1, were there any soldiers

13 from Konjic that were subordinated to him, if you know?

14 A. According to what I know, we had set aside

15 some 200 soldiers and officers for the Tactical Group 1

16 and they became part of that formation. I already

17 stated that.

18 Q. Are these members of the Gajret unit or are

19 these different?

20 A. I'm not familiar with the Gajret unit and I

21 was not present.

22 Q. Sir, do I understand you that there were some

23 2 to 300 soldiers from Konjic that were part of

24 Tactical Group 1 during the time that Mr. Delalic was

25 head of Tactical Group 1; is that correct?

Page 12116

1 A. Can you please repeat the question?

2 Q. Is it correct that during the time

3 Mr. Delalic was commander of Tactical Group 1, there

4 were 2 to 300 soldiers from Konjic that were

5 subordinated to Mr. Delalic, as commander of Tactical

6 Group 1?

7 A. I believe that that is correct.

8 Q. Do you know who was the head of this unit of

9 the soldiers?

10 A. I already stated that I was not present there

11 and I do not know exactly who it was.

12 Q. Do you know the names of any soldiers

13 whatsoever that were part of this group?

14 A. The men who were part of the Tactical Group

15 kept changing. It depended on the task, so after a

16 period of time, a unit would come back to its original

17 unit. When the Tactical Group would be tasked with a

18 new mission, fresh troops would be set aside and

19 appointed to it. So I don't know how many tasks and

20 how many soldiers were there at what time.

21 Q. Who was it who would appoint the fresh

22 soldiers to Tactical Group 1?

23 A. It was probably the staff and staff

24 commander.

25 Q. Does that mean you don't know for sure, sir?

Page 12117

1 A. The units numbering 2 to 300 soldiers and

2 officers had to be approved by the municipal staff.

3 They must have received an order from the superior

4 command, that is, from Sarajevo, and they set aside

5 these particular number of soldiers on the basis of the

6 order by the republican supreme command. The municipal

7 staff in Konjic did set aside these soldiers, and the

8 municipal staff commander must be the person

9 responsible for selecting and setting aside these men.

10 Q. Am I correct, sir, that you believe that's

11 the case because it's the way it should work but, in

12 fact, you don't know how it worked in practise because

13 you weren't involved in that; is that correct?

14 A. At any rate, this was the system, this is how

15 it was done, and this is probably how it happened.

16 Q. Thank you. Sir, when you inspected the

17 Celebici barracks during the end of April 1992, was it

18 already being used as a prison at that time?

19 A. No.

20 Q. During the time the Celebici prison existed,

21 who did you understand to be commander of the prison?

22 A. I never saw an order on the establishment of

23 prison, nor did I take part in a meeting where an order

24 was issued to establish a prison. Personally, I never

25 saw any prisoners in the prison. And my duties and the

Page 12118

1 scope of my work were such that I had no contact with

2 Celebici so that I was in no position to know who

3 established it, who was there, who commanded over the

4 prison.

5 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that you heard

6 that Mr. Pavo Mucic was commander of the prison?

7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I'm going to

8 object at this point. She's asking this witness to

9 speculate. He has already said he doesn't know.

10 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I certainly

11 believe I'm entitled to ask him what he heard.

12 JUDGE JAN: You're entitled to ask him about

13 rumours. That is what your position is.

14 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, given that he's a

15 member of the joint command staff, I believe his

16 information about who he heard was commander -- he has

17 also stated that he only heard Delalic was commander of

18 Tactical Group 1.

19 JUDGE JAN: Yes.

20 MS. McHENRY: He never saw the appointment

21 ordered either, but he knows that because of his

22 position.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you insisting that

24 he answer that he heard from rumours that Mucic was

25 commander of the prison?

Page 12119

1 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, given that this

2 witness has previously given a statement in which he

3 stated that he heard Mr. Mucic was commander of the

4 prison, I certainly think, yes, I'm entitled to ask him

5 about that. If he wants to say he heard it and it was

6 rumours, well, then Your Honours may choose not to give

7 it much weight, but certainly given that he has

8 specifically stated that --

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has already stated

10 that he did not know about the establishment of the

11 prison there. The other follow-up question about any

12 commander of the prison might be unfair. He didn't

13 know about the establishment of any prisons. Why ask

14 him whether there was any commander of a place he did

15 not know was established? It doesn't make sufficient

16 sense, except in this case, I suppose. You may ask

17 him.


19 Q. Sir, did there come a time when you were

20 aware that there was a prison in Celebici?

21 A. I had such information, but this was

22 information from informal sources of local people from

23 Konjic. Officially, I did not have this information,

24 nor did I receive it from the persons in charge so that

25 I would know about this.

Page 12120

1 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that in addition

2 to hearing that a prison existed, you heard that

3 Mr. Mucic was the commander of the prison?

4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Again, Your Honour, I'm

5 going to object. She's asking the witness to speculate

6 and he has already said he doesn't know.

7 JUDGE JAN: Go to your next question.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has answered it

9 sufficiently.


11 Q. Sir, is it correct that you heard reports

12 that there was mistreatment of prisoners in Celebici?

13 A. When you say that I have heard a report, a

14 report is a formal either verbal or written report

15 which would imply that somebody has submitted the

16 report to me, that somebody has given me a report which

17 is not correct. This kind of pressure has -- I've

18 already been exposed to this kind of pressure when Ms.

19 Sabina Manke insisted that I should say something

20 which, for instance, I was not aware of. In the end,

21 she said, "Have you ever heard that people in the

22 prison were mistreated?" And to such answers my

23 response was, "I have heard about it" after people

24 insisted, and so in response to that, I said that I had

25 heard something to that affect.

Page 12121

1 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you stated that

2 Mr. Delalic had no authority over Celebici. I assume

3 from that that you know who did have authority. Please

4 tell us the names of those persons who had authority

5 over Celebici? If it's more than one person, feel free

6 to give more than one name.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection, Your Honours. Not

8 knowing what Zejnil's responsibility was does not imply

9 that the witness can be asked this type of a question.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the witness can

11 answer it easily. Repeat the question.


13 Q. The question is, sir: I assume from the fact

14 that you testified that Mr. Delalic had no authority

15 over Celebici, you have some idea of who did have

16 authority over Celebici. I ask you to tell us the name

17 or names of those persons who had authority over

18 Celebici?

19 JUDGE JAN: If he knows.

20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I object. I

21 think he already stated he doesn't know.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You mean it follows

23 because he doesn't know, he knows those who have

24 authority over Celebici? That's your assumption.

25 JUDGE JAN: You're asking him complex

Page 12122

1 questions. Ask him does he know who had authority, and

2 if he says "yes," then ask him who these persons were.

3 Don't ask complex questions which confuse the witness.


5 Q. Sir, what are the names of those persons who

6 had authority over Celebici?

7 JUDGE JAN: Ask him if he knows about the

8 authority first.


10 Q. Do you know who had authority over Celebici?

11 A. I don't know because I have never seen any

12 document that anyone, in particular, was there, nor was

13 I present in any of the meetings where I could have

14 received such knowledge.

15 Q. Do you know to whom the guards were

16 subordinated?

17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Again, it's the same

18 objection, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE JAN: If he knows, he can say so.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's a simple,

21 straightforward thing. When an information is not

22 within his knowledge, he can easily say "I don't know"

23 and that's the end of it.

24 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I understand that, Your

25 Honour, but he has already stated he doesn't know

Page 12123

1 anything with regard to the prison.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He did not mention about

3 guards.

4 JUDGE JAN: Do you know who appointed the

5 guards of Celebici prison?

6 THE WITNESS: I don't know.


8 Q. Do you know to whom the guards reported or to

9 whom they were subordinated?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Can I ask that the witness be shown a copy of

12 his prior statement?

13 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Document 244.


15 Q. Sir, let me ask you, do you recognise what

16 has been shown to you as a copy of the statement that

17 you gave to the office of the Prosecutor and which

18 bears your signature?

19 A. The statement which I signed, and this

20 statement in the English language, this is the

21 statement that I signed in English that is. I did not

22 have an opportunity to sign a Bosnian language

23 statement.

24 Q. Thank you, Your Honours, I would ask that his

25 prior statement be admitted for the sole purposes of

Page 12124

1 determining the extent to which this witness has been

2 impeached.

3 MR. MORAN: Your Honour --

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which part of his

5 statement has been impeached?

6 MS. McHENRY: Well, among other things, Your

7 Honour, for instance, I will point to the bottom of

8 page 1 where he says, "The war had already started and

9 we in the war presidency were permanently in contact".

10 And then, the next paragraph, he goes on to clarify

11 that all important people were represented in the war

12 presidency and among them he lists the commander of the

13 municipal TO headquarters. I'm sorry, Your Honour, I

14 didn't hear you?

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How does this mean?

16 That it is in contradiction to what he has just said, a

17 membership of the war presidency?

18 MS. McHENRY: That's correct, Your Honour, he

19 has stated that he was never a member of the war

20 presidency and that, in fact, the commander of the

21 municipal TO headquarters, was never a member.

22 JUDGE JAN: We heard Hadzihuseinovic, and he

23 said the membership of the war presidency was regulated

24 by regulations and the TO and the -- and the others

25 were not represented in that. How is this

Page 12125

1 impeachment? This is exactly what he said today.

2 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, and it's also

3 the case with respect Dr. Hadzihuseinovic -- Mr.

4 Hadzihuseinovic, was impeached with the fact that

5 previously he had stated that the commander of the TO

6 was part of the war presidency. And I emphasise that

7 the Prosecution is not saying that, in fact, under the

8 law, the commander of the TO headquarters was or was

9 not a member of the war presidency. The point is that

10 is that just as -- that the persons there thought that

11 the municipal TO commander was part of the war

12 presidency and Mr. Hadzihuseinovic and this witness and

13 Mr. Delalic himself all stated that initially. And we

14 believe that is directly relevant to determining what

15 the situation was in fact, which was confused without

16 people always knowing what the exact provisions were.

17 And so we believe it is absolutely, directly relevant

18 and that's why Ms. Residovic has gotten into it in

19 direct testimony and that's why we're allowed to

20 impeach this witness with the fact that he stated

21 differently on a prior occasion.

22 JUDGE JAN: How does it affect the matters of

23 the case?

24 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, we believe --

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, that's true, you

Page 12126

1 can tender it.

2 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. The Prosecution has

3 no further questions.

4 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, based on a new

5 subject that came up during cross-examination, I

6 request leave of court for about five minutes more.

7 This is the second witness that has testified about

8 some coercion in making statements. Risto Vukalo was

9 the first one.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't remember him

11 talking about coercion. He says he might have signed

12 the English version.

13 MR. MORAN: No, Your Honour, this man said

14 said that Sabina Manke put words in his mouth and was

15 pressuring him. Given the fact that another witness, a

16 prosecution witness has suggested --

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I would be surprised if

18 an officer of his status could be classed with Sabina

19 Manke.

20 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I take no position

21 on that.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you might, but I

23 think very few people would take that word really

24 seriously. Well, I don't think so. We take note of

25 whatever. I think, if what he said is all inclusive,

Page 12127

1 as against the regulations governing the appointment of

2 members of the war presidency, well it's neither here

3 nor there, it doesn't really affect his credibility or

4 voracity. You might take it for all that it's worth.

5 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, given that, there's

6 no reason to go into how this statement was made and

7 whatever weight should be given to this statement.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, if you

9 have anything to say about it?

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, may just be

11 noted in the transcript that I objected to the proposal

12 that you accepted and regarding the impeachment of this

13 witness.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That you objected and

15 the Trial Chamber felt it could be admitted. That will

16 be -- it will be deleted. Because everything you say

17 is recorded, so there's nothing to worry about that.

18 It's a ruling of the Trial Chamber that I will admit it

19 because this is a statement, without denying it, other

20 than his explanation that he did not have the other

21 translation, perhaps the actual translation or the

22 language in which he made it. So for all that it is

23 worth, we admit it.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I

25 just mentioned this because of the transcript. I am

Page 12128

1 aware of your decision, thank you. However, since the

2 Prosecutor has tendered into evidence something to

3 impeach the witness, allow me to tender the video

4 recording of a meeting of the municipal assembly at

5 which this witness was proposed and which clearly shows

6 that this witness is telling the truth. Would you

7 allow me to show this video?

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No. Because that has

9 nothing to do with his voracity. And it was not even

10 challenged that he was appointed. Nobody is

11 challenging that. Is that in issue, that he was

12 appointed? It was not an issue that he was not

13 nominated. None of the offices he has held have been

14 challenged, so I don't know what your video will tell

15 us, other than during a few minutes of a review

16 transmission, it has nothing to do with it.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: We would gain, as Judge Jan

18 said yesterday, evidence that supports the credibility

19 of this witness. He was present at the session. He

20 was proposed and elected. And it shows how, in effect,

21 things happened in April, 1992, and not in the way it

22 is written in this statement, whereby the Prosecutor

23 wishes to impeach him. So this would be in support of

24 the credibility of this witness. That is my proposal,

25 it is up to you to judge, Your Honour.

Page 12129

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not going to accept

2 it, I am going to reject it. His appointment is

3 clearly stated in evidence and there's documentary

4 evidence in support of the facts that the war

5 presidency proposed him and nominated him and he was

6 appointed. So I don't see any contention given the

7 fact that he was appointed. Now, this is a type of

8 (inaudible) which a specific thing has been accepted.

9 It has been accepted by credible witnesses whose

10 evidence cannot be successfully challenged, so why do

11 you want him to say it? It's not necessary. If you

12 have any other questions.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. So you are

14 confirming the credibility of this witness by what you

15 have just said, Your Honour?

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He's been impeached,

17 everything will come out when all the evidence is being

18 considered. You have no other questions? Well, I

19 think this end of the testimony of this witness and

20 he's accordingly discharged. Thank you very much for

21 your assistance. Can we have your other witness now?

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: I call Zijad Salihamidzic as

23 a witness.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is one of your

25 Jablanica witnesses, is it?

Page 12130

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, Your Honour, I'm sorry, I

2 don't have the interpretation. I am not receiving the

3 interpretation.

4 JUDGE JAN: He's from Jablanica

5 municipality?

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: The gentleman was, for a

7 time, in 1992, in the Jablanica municipality, commander

8 of the Territorial Defence. And as of August, he was

9 in Konjic, member of the staff and assistant commander

10 for intelligence.

11 (The witness entered court)

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He's expected to give

13 evidence on the rule of Delalic in Jablanica, is it?

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: The crown evidence of the

15 Prosecution is that Delalic was the commander of all

16 formations of a large area, including Jablanica

17 municipality.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's why the

19 consistent rejection of this theory by board

20 Prosecution and Defence witnesses, you think it's a

21 relevant aspect of the case you're expected to defend?

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours, because

23 the superior authority is derived from this command

24 over everything, including Celebici. That is the

25 position of the Prosecution. You heard them arguing in

Page 12131

1 response to our request for an okay, sir.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And the evidence of your

3 witnesses who are inferior to the document you are

4 relying upon, can make a difference if one takes the

5 view the document you are referring to is taken. Well,

6 go ahead with your witness. Go ahead with him. Swear

7 the witness, please.

8 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

9 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

10 truth.



13 Q. Sir, will you please introduce yourself to

14 the court by telling us your name?

15 A. My name is Zijad Salihamidzic.

16 Q. Mr. Salihamidzic, may I draw your attention

17 to the fact that when you hear my question, wait for

18 the interpretation on the headphones so that the Trial

19 Chamber and everyone else can follow us. Have you

20 understood me?

21 A. Yes, I have, thank you.

22 Q. Will you please tell me, sir, when and where

23 you were born?

24 A. I was born on the 23rd of July, 1948, in

25 Jablanica.

Page 12132

1 Q. What is your citizenship?

2 A. I am a Bosniak.

3 Q. What is your education and your occupation?

4 A. I completed elementary school in Jablanica,

5 secondary school for physical education in Sarajevo and

6 the faculty for physical education at Sarajevo

7 University.

8 Q. Where were you in April, 1992?

9 A. I used to work in the district TO staff of

10 Mostar and in 1992, I was in Konjic.

11 Q. When and how did you join the defence forces

12 of Bosnia and Herzegovina and where?

13 A. As I had worked for a long time as the

14 commander of the peacetime headquarters of Territorial

15 Defence in Jablanica, ever since 1975 and until 1984,

16 after which, due to certain abilities that I had, I was

17 designated assistant commander of the district staff of

18 Territorial Defence in Mostar.

19 Q. Mr. Salihamidzic, some of your previous

20 activities were certainly important for your duties in

21 '92, but since the court is familiar with many of the

22 facts, will you please tell us, when did you join the

23 defence forces? After the war began, what duties you

24 performed in the defence and where?

25 A. That's exactly what I am trying to tell you

Page 12133

1 because the president of the Municipality of Jablanica,

2 knowing my professional abilities, called me to an

3 official interview in Jablanica and asked me to accept

4 the proposal to become commander of the municipal staff

5 of the Territorial Defence of Jablanica.

6 Q. Who appointed you to that position in April,

7 1992?

8 A. After this interview, the war presidency of

9 Jablanica municipality sent the proposal to the

10 superior command, that is the republican TO staff, and

11 on the 16th of April, 1992, having received an

12 appointment, the document on appointment, I became

13 officially the commander of the Territorial Defence of

14 Jablanica municipality.

15 Q. According to your personal knowledge, because

16 you became commander of the municipal staff, who in

17 those days appointed the TO commanders in Jablanica?

18 A. There was an interview.

19 Q. But who appointed you?

20 A. In the municipality itself, nobody appointed

21 me. It was the republican staff of Territorial Defence

22 that appointed me, or, rather, the ministry of defence

23 and signed by Minister Jerko Doko and the commander of

24 the Territorial Defence at the time Hasan Efendic.

25 Q. Is it true, Mr. Salihamidzic, that upon

Page 12134

1 arrival in The Hague, you gave to me a document, a

2 letter of appointment that you received to the position

3 of TO commander?

4 A. Yes, that is my own personal document.

5 Q. Counsel, could this document be marked for

6 identification? We have copies for the Trial Chamber,

7 for the Prosecution and could it be shown to the

8 witness, please.

9 A. Yes, that is my own document, a document in

10 my possession.

11 Q. Shall we just wait for their Honours to see

12 the document.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Document 177.


15 Q. Sir, is this a document appointing you to the

16 commander of the TO staff for the Municipality of

17 Jablanica?

18 A. Yes, it is my document.

19 Q. Thank you, Your Honours. Since this document

20 clearly shows how commanders were appointed and is

21 therefore relevant and as the witness recognises it as

22 his own, I tender it into evidence as a Defence

23 Exhibit.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any objection

25 on the part of the Prosecution?

Page 12135

1 MR. TURONE: No objection, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is admitted.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

4 Q. Mr. Salihamidzic, who did the municipal staff

5 of the Jablanica municipality, who was it supposed to

6 be subordinated to?

7 A. Given a normal organisation of Territorial

8 Defence, such as existed before, the municipal TO staff

9 should be subordinated to the district TO staff in

10 Mostar, where I used to work as an assistant commander

11 for morality.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Will you tell me whether this

13 indeed happened?

14 JUDGE JAN: He's wanted for morality?

15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I believe he

16 meant morale.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's morale of the

18 forces.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: This existed before the war,

20 it was for ethics. I'm sorry that the translation is

21 such that it is, I am unable to follow it. It is for

22 ethics, not combat morale, but ethics, the word is, I'm

23 sorry, the interpreter explains. The situation in

24 Jablanica, is identical to the situation in Konjic, so

25 that the witness can, as the immediate neighbour

Page 12136

1 confirmed the testimony we have heard regarding similar

2 issues, but we won't dwell on it at length.

3 Mr. Salihamidzic, in view of the fact that

4 the district staff in Mostar, where you used to work

5 before the war, did not function; who was your

6 municipal staff of Territorial Defence in Jablanica

7 subordinated to afterwards?

8 A. The district staff of Territorial Defence was

9 functioning, but it did not agree to the new

10 organisation because the employees were exclusively

11 Serbs and this for a short time.

12 Q. Who then was the Jablanica municipal staff

13 subordinated to?

14 A. The Jablanica Territorial Defence staff was

15 under the direct command of the republican staff of

16 Territorial Defence, because we accepted the suggestion

17 of the political leadership to organise ourselves.

18 Q. From the moment you were appointed commander,

19 did you begin to behave in line with the new

20 regulations on the organisation of the armed forces of

21 the Territorial Defence of the new state?

22 A. Yes, indeed.

23 Q. Until when were you subordinated to the

24 republican staff, or rather, until when were the

25 commanders of the municipal staff appointed by the

Page 12137

1 republican staff?

2 A. From the 16th of April until the formation, I

3 think in November of the 4th corps, we were under the

4 direct command and control of the republican staff and

5 we were subordinated to it.

6 Q. While you were the commander of the municipal

7 staff, was the command of Tactical Group 1, at any

8 point in time, superior to the command of the

9 Territorial Defence of the Municipality of Jablanica?

10 A. No. Tactical Group 1 was never superior in

11 the sense of control and command to the Territorial

12 Defence staff of Jablanica. And the rule is that

13 tactical groups should be formed for a particular task

14 and they have no authority over municipal TO staffs, in

15 general.

16 Q. While you were the commander of the municipal

17 staff, did your units or part of your units from the

18 area of Jablanica, were they transferred to the command

19 of the tactical group, or rather, did your units

20 participate in the tasks of that tactical group in

21 lifting the blockade around Sarajevo at Tinovo Brdo?

22 A. Yes, that was the function of the tactical

23 group. That is one particular assignment. And as the

24 commander, I designated, I think it was 50, or I don't

25 know the exact number now, 50 fighters, combatants, to

Page 12138

1 join the tactical group which would seek to lift the

2 blockade of Sarajevo.

3 Q. After the execution of that task, did those

4 combatants return to Jablanica and under whose command

5 were they upon their return?

6 A. The military regulations, that as an officer

7 I abided by, say that when my unit leaves my territory,

8 it is subordinated to the commander of that tactical

9 group. And upon the completion of a combat assignment,

10 they return to their municipality, in this particular

11 case, to my municipality, where they are appointed to

12 the units from which they had come.

13 Q. Mr. Salihamidzic, the remainder of the army,

14 the remaining armed formations in the territory of

15 Jablanica municipality, who did not go to Tinovo Brdo,

16 to become part of the tactical group, the remaining

17 armed formations in Jablanica, under whose command were

18 they?

19 A. Exclusively under my command because I was

20 the commander of the municipal staff of Territorial

21 Defence. I commanded those forces in that area.

22 Q. Tell me, Mr. Salihamidzic, how were the

23 defence forces in Jablanica composed in those days?

24 A. The Territorial Defence and the MUP, they

25 have a system of control and command that is separate.

Page 12139

1 The MUP is accountable to the republican ministry, that

2 is to its leader, whereas as the commander of the

3 Territorial Defence, I was accountable to the commander

4 of the republican TO staff.

5 Q. Mr. Salihamidzic, you said that the president

6 of the municipality talked to you and that the war

7 presidency agreed to propose your name before your

8 appointment. Mr. Salihamidzic, as the commander of the

9 Territorial Defence, were you a member of the war

10 presidency of Jablanica municipality?

11 A. No. I was the commander of the Territorial

12 Defence and I was responsible directly to the commander

13 of the republican TO staff. I was not accountable to

14 the president of the municipality.

15 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mr. Salihamidzic, while

16 you were a commander of the municipal staff, was the

17 SDS arming the Serb population within the territory of

18 Jablanica?

19 JUDGE JAN: It is irrelevant for.


21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Just a moment, let me address

22 the court. Your Honours, attached to the military

23 expert witness testimony there were a number of

24 documents that you noticed as being exceptionally

25 important. This witness can confirm this. And you

Page 12140

1 said yourself that a witness needs it to authenticate

2 these documents about the surrender of arms, if you can

3 remember that part of the testimony.

4 JUDGE JAN: We allowed you to examine this

5 witness who is from another municipal area, just to see

6 what the practice there was, nothing more than that.

7 Because the practice in the municipality may be used to

8 confirm the practice in Konjic. This you have already

9 done.


11 Q. The inhabitants of Konjic Municipality,

12 regardless of their ethnic origin, what citizenship do

13 they hold?

14 JUDGE JAN: That is a legal question.

15 THE WITNESS: All the people of Konjic are

16 Bosniaks.

17 JUDGE JAN: He's not a lawyer. That's a

18 legal question.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: But he knows what his

20 citizenship is, as a fact, and of course it is up to

21 you to judge the legal aspect. Your Honours, if you

22 remember counts 1 and 2 of the indictment linked to

23 Konjic, this witness will confirm the submissions of

24 the defence and that is the attitude towards the

25 illegally armed people and the attitude of those same

Page 12141

1 people towards their own country. If I may be allowed

2 to ask two questions from that area, I think that we

3 shall see the reasons for the legitimate arrest and

4 detention of those people. And these are related to

5 the indictment.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This witness will be

7 speaking for his municipality.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Briefly, and then I will pass

9 on to his duties in Konjic.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's his municipality he

11 would be speaking about, isn't it?


13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay, we'll break now

14 and come back at 4.30.

15 --- Recess taken at 4.02 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 4.34 p.m.

17 (The witness entered court)

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the

19 witness that he is still under oath.

20 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

21 are still under oath.

22 THE WITNESS: I understand.


24 Q. Mr. Salihamidzic, just another question

25 relating to your duty in the municipal staff in

Page 12142

1 Jablanica. Can you tell me whether you had possession

2 of any weapons as a staff, where was it and did you

3 take possession of these weapons?

4 A. When I was the commander, all weapons of the

5 Territorial Defence had previously been stored in the

6 depots of the former JNA at Ljuta. This was in the

7 Konjic municipality, so that my municipality, which

8 otherwise was purchasing these weapons, never took

9 possession of these weapons but...

10 Q. After taking control of the Ljuta barracks by

11 the defence forces of Konjic, did you eventually take

12 possession of part of these weapons?

13 A. Yes. I received information --

14 JUDGE JAN: You don't have to go into

15 details.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


18 Q. Please, just in brief, if you can answer this

19 question: After the liberation of Ljuta, did you come

20 into possession of either all or part of the weapons

21 there?

22 A. From the weapons that were found there, we

23 received 20 per cent; 30 per cent went to Prozor and 50

24 per cent was received by the TO in Konjic.

25 Q. Were these sufficient quantities of weapons

Page 12143

1 or did you have to look for other places to find

2 equipment and materiel given that you, as you stated,

3 did not have your own weapons depots?

4 A. Given the territory that my units were

5 securing, we had very little weapons and equipment so

6 that my soldiers would actually leave their weapons in

7 their front-line positions.

8 Q. Very well. This is enough as far as the

9 municipal staff in Jablanica is concerned. Now,

10 Mr. Salihamidzic, did you at one point in 1992 transfer

11 to the municipal headquarters in Konjic?

12 A. Yes, I had originally come from Konjic.

13 That's where my wife and my children were and my

14 in-laws were there. As far as I can remember, sometime

15 in August, I came to the TO headquarters in Konjic, and

16 I was given a duty of an officer in the operations

17 sector.

18 Q. If you can recall the date, that would be

19 better, but it is fine if you just said that it was in

20 August. Who was your commander at the municipal staff

21 at that time?

22 A. It was Mr. Esad Ramic. He was my commander

23 when I came to the TO headquarters in Konjic, that is.

24 Q. Mr. Salihamidzic, did you know Mr. Delalic?

25 A. Yes. He was born in the village of Ostrozac

Page 12144

1 which was in the Jablanica municipality. I believe

2 he's about a year younger than I am, but I knew him

3 from school.

4 Q. In the period when you were the commander of

5 the municipal staff in Jablanica and until your arrival

6 in Konjic, did you know what activities Mr. Zejnil

7 Delalic was engaged in and did you have any contact

8 with him at that time?

9 A. When I came to the municipal headquarters of

10 the Territorial Defence of Jablanica, it was contingent

11 on my having a uniform. You can be a soldier if you

12 had a uniform, if you had insignia and if you had a

13 unit. The first two uniforms I received from

14 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. I personally received them and I

15 put one of them on.

16 Q. While you were in the municipal headquarters

17 of the TO in Jablanica, did Zejnil Delalic assist you

18 with providing equipment for the needs of the municipal

19 staff there?

20 A. Yes. He was very committed to doing this and

21 thereby acquired a lot of confidence and respect of the

22 people who had nothing. Everything that we received

23 was very valuable for us.

24 Q. Do you have any specific example relating to

25 the municipal staff because the court already knows

Page 12145

1 enough about his local contacts and especially with the

2 people in Ostrozac. But was he involved in providing

3 materiel and equipment for, for instance, a unit which

4 went to Tinovo Brdo?

5 A. Yes, yes. If you will allow me, this was the

6 first operation for which I made preparation with

7 soldiers to go there, which means that we received part

8 of the equipment from Mr. Delalic. This is one of the

9 specific contributions of his, to equip one of the unit

10 which I sent out in an attempt to lift the siege of

11 Sarajevo. This unit was placed under the command of

12 Tactical Group 1. At that time, Mr. Mustafa Polutak,

13 who is now a BiH army general, was the commander of

14 Tactical Group 1 at the time.

15 Q. Thank you. When you came to the municipal

16 staff in Konjic in August 1992, do you know what duty

17 Mr. Zejnil Delalic occupied at the time?

18 A. So this is August of 1992, and I received

19 information that Mr. Delalic was the commander of

20 Tactical Group 1 and that he replaced, in that

21 position, Mr. Mustafa Polutak.

22 Q. You said that you were involved in operations

23 in a department in the municipal headquarters.

24 Mr. Salihamidzic, was the commander of the Tactical

25 Group 1, Mr. Zejnil Delalic, a superior officer to you

Page 12146

1 or to anyone in the municipal staff of the Territorial

2 Defence of Konjic?

3 A. No. The hierarchy was identical as the one

4 in Jablanica. The municipal staff commands and

5 controls -- its commander, that is, commands and

6 controls its own units in its own area of

7 responsibility, and the commander of the tactical unit

8 receives a specific tactical task which is limited by

9 the time in which it is to be executed.

10 Q. Mr. Salihamidzic, is it correct that after

11 your arrival in The Hague, you gave me a chart

12 detailing the organisation of the territorial municipal

13 staff of 1992 and that you have a copy of this?

14 A. Yes. I found this chart among my documents

15 from the period when I was in the operations

16 department, and this chart also contains names of

17 officers who were in certain positions.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: With the usher's assistance,

19 can I have this document distributed and then also

20 marked for identification? There are enough copies for

21 the court here.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Defence document D178/1.


24 Q. Mr. Salihamidzic, can you please show where

25 your position was in August, according to this chart?

Page 12147

1 A. On the left-hand side, it says "Staff," and

2 then down the line of command "Chief of staff,

3 assistant chief of staff for operations and training,"

4 and then following that, several officers among whom my

5 name also appears as officer for operations and

6 tactical affairs.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, since the

8 witness is in possession of this document and he

9 recognised his own position in the municipal staff, I

10 move to admit it into evidence as a Defence exhibit.

11 JUDGE JAN: Did he himself prepare this

12 chart?

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: No. As we heard, this was a

14 chart which was in the headquarters when he was a

15 member there. That was in August of 1992. I'm just

16 repeating what the witness has testified to. I cannot

17 testify on his behalf. You will also recall, Your

18 Honours, that Witness Cerovac recreated from memory a

19 similar chart, and I think that it's --

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Cerovac is in a higher

21 position and he is in a better position to talk about

22 it. This officer is not in a similar position and,

23 strictly speaking, cannot himself -- apart from the

24 fact that if his name appears, yes, but that doesn't

25 mean that it is correct.

Page 12148

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: I think this is identical

2 with another document which we had admitted

3 previously. It is your decision, Your Honours. You

4 have heard the witness.

5 JUDGE JAN: Then rely on the document that

6 has already been admitted.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's already in

8 evidence. If it is identical with what Cerovac spoke

9 about here, why do you want to bring in this again? Is

10 his name not in the other list?

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, Cerovac

12 produced the documents based on his memory of it in

13 1998. This is a document from 1992 which is in

14 possession of this witness. It supports the chart that

15 Cerovac produced.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He was chief of staff in

17 1992 in the municipal army there. That's a more

18 authentic document than this one. It's not necessary.

19 You can carry on with your evidence.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Q. Mr. Salihamidzic, did you take over other

22 duties in this staff at one point and, if you did, can

23 you tell the court which ones?

24 A. I was indisposed very briefly, and sometime

25 in late August, early September, I was given a duty of

Page 12149

1 the assistant deputy for intelligence. I believe that

2 my superior officer Mr. Cerovac and the commander had

3 followed my work and had assigned me to that post.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: I'm going to ask

5 Mr. Salihamidzic some questions and I would like to ask

6 the witness a question relating to D145 A5 D/39 or in

7 the transcript page 807.

8 I have the copies prepared for the court so

9 can the witness please be shown this document?

10 Q. Mr. Salihamidzic, was this a document which

11 appoints you to assistant deputy officer for

12 intelligence in the municipal headquarters in Konjic?

13 A. Yes, that is the document signed by my

14 commander, Mr. Esad Ramic.

15 Q. I move to admit this document as a Defence

16 exhibit. Mr. Salihamidzic, when you became assistant

17 chief for intelligence, what were your basic duties in

18 this position?

19 A. I had a short period of preparation while I

20 was still an operations officer and then I transferred

21 to this duty. My basic duty as assistant to chief of

22 intelligence was to collect information based on

23 intelligence and recognisance, information that is on

24 the aggressor, that was the basic duty and task of

25 assistant the chief. And after the relevant

Page 12150

1 information was collected, I submitted it to my chief

2 for further use in connection with preparations for

3 anticipated combat activities.

4 Q. In answer to one of my questions, you said

5 that tactical group always bound to a particular task,

6 Mr. Salihamidzic, did you have any duties in providing

7 intelligence information to tactical groups in the

8 areas towards Sarajevo, and if yes, based on what?

9 A. Since I have certain military knowledge,

10 expertise and I had worked in a much larger size

11 command and I know what it means to conduct certain

12 combat operations, the rule is that a tactical group

13 which has not been -- which is not fully fledged, that

14 such tactical group should be supplied with

15 intelligence. Because when a tactical group is in the

16 process of performing a task, it has to have the

17 information regarding the front lines where the task is

18 performed, the flanks and, of course, the depth of the

19 area in which it is engaged.

20 Q. Thank you. Apart from your general

21 knowledge, did you also have any documents, such as

22 order or a directive from another command which would

23 further specify what your duties were?

24 A. Yes. We forwarded our -- all information to

25 our centre for intelligence and this intelligence

Page 12151

1 centre for the purposes of our better operating sent us

2 a directive--

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually what is all of

4 this?

5 THE WITNESS: --in order to better perform or

6 combat duties.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is he trying to

8 show?

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: I wish to show that this

10 witness had certain obligations in relation to the

11 tactical group in executing his duties as a citizen for

12 intelligence.


14 JUDGE JAN: The centre which sent that

15 information to the persons concerning, how is that

16 relevant for our purpose? You have taken fifteen

17 minutes already.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, among the evidence

19 admitted is a document that has to do with intelligence

20 data. And this is the only person that this document

21 of Zejnil Delalic's could have been addressed to and I

22 want this witness to tell us whether he had any basis

23 for collecting such data in conveying them to Tactical

24 Groups. Not only Tactical Group 1, but also Tactical

25 Group 2, which are in the front lines and which have no

Page 12152

1 developed services of their own. And this is what the

2 witness has just told us.

3 JUDGE JAN: Instead of going through all

4 that, he could have said that it was part of my duty to

5 supply information and the supplying of information to

6 Zejnil Delalic didn't mean that he was my superior.

7 You could have asked him instead of going the round

8 about way.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours, for

10 teaching me how to put my questions, but it is not my

11 practice --

12 JUDGE JAN: I am not teaching you anything, I

13 know that you know more than anybody else probably in

14 this chamber. But then, please, be direct and ask him

15 his duty to Tactical Group 1. I am not teaching you,

16 because you know more, I suppose, than anybody else

17 here.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

19 Q. Mr. Salihamidzic, did you ever have the duty

20 to supply intelligence data to Mr. Delalic?

21 A. Yes, as the commander of the tactical group

22 and even to the commander of Tactical Group 2 because

23 they were responsible for the security of all our

24 areas.

25 Q. Tell me, did you personally, physically carry

Page 12153

1 such data to the command of Tactical Group 2?

2 A. Since Mr. Dinko Zebic from the HVO structure

3 worked in this field also, we went together to Pazaric

4 on one occasion where we exchanged such data and gave

5 them for use.

6 Q. Mr. Salihamidzic, this obligation of yours,

7 to submit such reports to the commander of Tactical

8 Group 1, or rather to the command of that group, did it

9 emanate from any document of your superior command,

10 that is the republican staff?

11 A. We had instructions which made it obligatory

12 on us to supply units which do not have such developed

13 services of their own, such data, so that they would be

14 successful in combat and so that they would be able to

15 achieve their goal.

16 Q. Counsel, may Prosecution Exhibit 224 be shown

17 to the witness, please?

18 JUDGE JAN: What is this document?

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Will you please place the

20 English version on the ELMO. I don't have copies of

21 this document because it has already been admitted as

22 Prosecution Exhibit. Could you please put the English

23 version on the ELMO.

24 Q. Have you read the document? Just a moment,

25 please, the document cannot be seen on the ELMO, could

Page 12154

1 the usher please assist? It is the question of the

2 development of the reconnaissance unit.

3 JUDGE JAN: This document dated 14th

4 November, when Mr. Delalic is about to wind-up and

5 leave the country?


7 Q. I would like to draw your attention, Mr.

8 Salihamidzic, to Point 6 of this document, which I hope

9 you have managed to read. Can it be shown on the ELMO,

10 can we see the second page, so that the Trial Chamber

11 can see what it's about? The signatory of that

12 document obliges the municipal staffs to supply certain

13 data. Tell me, Mr. Salihamidzic, have you turned the

14 document to page 2, please.

15 THE USHER: There's only one page.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's in there.


18 Q. Will you please read Point 6 so that we can

19 see how it reads because we can't see it on the ELMO.

20 Point 6 is not on page 1, I'm sorry, I can't see the

21 English text. Does this point establish the

22 responsibility and duty of municipal commanders in

23 relation to the person who issued this order?

24 A. It was our obligation to provide such

25 intelligence data and this is identical to the

Page 12155

1 instructions we received from our superior command.

2 Q. Is it true then that previously, in order

3 with the instructions of the superior command, you were

4 obliged to supply tactical groups with those data?

5 A. Yes, that is a rule, and we had instructions

6 to that effect. This is a military rule.

7 Q. Mr. Salihamidzic, do those instructions and

8 this order have anything to do with the Celebici

9 prison?

10 A. I was wondering why you were showing me

11 this.

12 Q. Because I am talking about military things.

13 A. Thank you, so that is an indirect answer that

14 there is no connection?

15 Q. That is right, there is none. Do you know

16 Mr. Jerko Kostic, please?

17 A. I had said that I had lived in Mostar with my

18 family after 1984 and I know that Jerko Kostic from

19 Mostar, because he worked in the state security

20 service.

21 Q. When you arrived in Konjic in August, 1992,

22 did you meet this man and do you know what his duties

23 were?

24 A. Yes, not just once, but on a number of

25 occasions, later, I met Mr. Jerko and we talked. He

Page 12156

1 was sent from Mostar to Konjic to assist the HVO --

2 Q. How do you know that?

3 A. I learned that through conversations.

4 Q. Did Jerko Kostic ever ask you to provide him

5 with certain data?

6 A. On a number of occasions. His sphere of

7 interest was the retired General Jovan Dijak. He

8 particularly insisted on data about him. And since Mr.

9 Dijak was my commander --

10 Q. Let us leave that aside. Did he ask you for

11 any other data and what position did he hold at the

12 time he asked you for this data?

13 A. At the time he was in SIS, the intelligence

14 service of the HVO. And, probably, these data were

15 needed by that service. And knowing the purpose and

16 possible use of those data and the data referred to a

17 senior military officer in the BiH army, information

18 which could be compromising, I would not supply such

19 data.

20 Q. Did he ever ask you for information about

21 Zejnil Delalic?

22 A. Yes, but he didn't insist so much on those.

23 Q. Will you tell me, please, after Zejnil

24 Delalic left Konjic, did the HVO launch a fierce

25 campaign against Mr. Delalic and Mr. Dijak as being

Page 12157

1 members of the intelligence service of the former

2 Yugoslav army, are you aware of that?

3 A. It is hard for me to talk about this, but

4 there were all kinds of rumours about that.

5 Q. We won't go into the rumours, but if you have

6 any personal knowledge about these things, it is much

7 more important than any rumours or stories you may have

8 heard. Do you have any personal knowledge about this?

9 A. You see, that is the way how to obtain

10 information. That is how you do obtain information.

11 You hear this here and something else there, and that's

12 how you collect information.

13 Q. My question is, at the time were you able to

14 follow the media who were fiercely attacking Zejnil

15 Delalic and Mr. Jovan Dijak?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, I have no further

18 questions for this witness.

19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I have no further questions

20 on behalf of the witness, thank you.

21 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have a few.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Moran:

23 MR. MORAN: May it please the court.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.

25 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 12158

1 Q. Good afternoon, sir, my name is Tom Moran,

2 and I think I have spoken to you just briefly and I

3 represent a man named Hazim Delic. And I want to ask

4 you a few questions, but the first question I want to

5 ask, I think is a question on the minds of a lot of

6 people in this courtroom, what exactly does the

7 assistant commander for morality do in an army unit?

8 A. I have two specialities. One is control and

9 command and the other is morality. I prefer the latter

10 one.

11 Q. What are your duties, sir, as a morality

12 officer?

13 A. If you have the patience to hear me out, I

14 should like to give you an example to show you and then

15 it's up to you to judge.

16 Q. If you could give us the short version, sir,

17 I think at least some of the court, and I know I was

18 just curious of what a morality officer is, because in

19 armies I'm familiar with, there's no such title, no

20 such person.

21 JUDGE JAN: Is it really important?

22 MR. MORAN: It's just interesting, Judge, but

23 we can go on to something else.

24 JUDGE JAN: Please do.


Page 12159

1 Q. Sir, when you were answering questions from

2 Ms. Residovic, you were talking about the weapon

3 shortage, I believe, while you were the commander in

4 Jablanica, and something came out translated and on the

5 transcript and I didn't understand it, and so I'm going

6 to just see if I can clarify it in my own mind. You

7 said something about weapons were so short that you

8 would leave them in front-line positions. By that, sir,

9 did you mean that when one soldier would leave a

10 front-line position and another one would replace him in

11 that position that there were so few weapons that the

12 man coming to the front took the weapon from the man

13 going to the rear? Sir, you have to say "yes" or "no"

14 because there's a lady over hear called a court

15 reporter and she has to write down everything we say.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Another thing you said while you were talking

18 to Ms. Residovic was something along the lines, and I

19 just have a few notes on it, is that you were a soldier

20 if you had a uniform and an insignia. Does that mean,

21 sir, that people who did not have a uniform and did not

22 have an insignia were not soldiers and were not to be

23 treated like soldiers?

24 A. I'm sorry. I didn't quite get your question.

25 Q. Yes, sir, and that's good. If you have a

Page 12160

1 problem understanding one of my questions, have me stop

2 and --

3 A. I'll answer as soon as you repeat the

4 question once again, please.

5 Q. That's fine, sir. As I recall, you told Ms.

6 Residovic or you said that you were a soldier if you

7 had a uniform and insignia; do you remember telling her

8 that or did I just take bad notes on that?

9 A. You see, according to international law, and

10 you are an expert in the field, I am not, but as far as

11 I know, a soldier is a person wearing a uniform, the

12 insignia of a soldier, an indication of the unit he

13 belongs to and the command he belongs to. That is what

14 I said.

15 Q. I just wanted to make sure that I was clear

16 in my mind about that, sir. One last area and then I

17 think I'll be done. Sir, you've been both a commander

18 and a staff officer. I'm going to ask you a little bit

19 about the differences in authority that come with those

20 two different statusís. Sir, would it be fair to say

21 that a commander, by virtue of his legal status as a

22 commander, has the personal authority to order his

23 subordinates, the people in his unit, to perform legal

24 tasks?

25 A. Legal tasks?

Page 12161

1 Q. Yes, sir, legal duties.

2 A. Legal duties in the sense of carrying out a

3 certain combat task, combat assignment, if I understood

4 you well?

5 Q. Yes, sir, or for that matter to wash dishes

6 after dinner or whatever; a legal duty (sic) has the

7 right to order his subordinates to carry out functions

8 related to that unit and, so long as those orders are

9 legal orders, require his subordinates to follow them?

10 A. You are placing a lot of emphasis on legality

11 and law and I'm a military man. I would prefer to

12 answer a more simple question. I apologise for not

13 being able to answer this.

14 Q. That's fair, sir. The reason I say "legal

15 orders" is I don't want anyone to think that I'm

16 suggesting that a commander has the right to order his

17 troops to work at Auschwitz or anything like that.

18 What I'm saying is if it's a legal order, legal under

19 your national law, legal under international law, that

20 a commander has the personal authority to order his

21 subordinates to follow those orders, and that if they

22 fail to follow those orders, he has the personal

23 authority to punish them?

24 A. If a commander issues an order, it has to be

25 carried out.

Page 12162

1 Q. And that's because the commander has the

2 personal right to issue those orders by virtue of his

3 position as commandant, as commander?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And people who are not commanders, staff

6 officers, deputy commanders, people like that, they

7 only have the authority to issue orders which are given

8 to them by the commander; isn't that right?

9 A. They have their own competencies because they

10 are of a lower rank and they have their own terms of

11 reference which are regulated by rules and regulations

12 regarding the service under various conditions. Is it

13 guard duty or some other obligations or duties that are

14 important?

15 Q. Yes, but they don't have the same kind of

16 power to command and punish that a commander does, do

17 they, sir?

18 A. There is a rule on military discipline, rules

19 of military discipline. According to those rules,

20 every commanding officer has to act any officer in

21 command so that if a soldier carries out an offence or

22 makes an error, it is exactly stated what the

23 punishment is. Nothing is left to chance. Everything

24 is regulated.

25 Q. Sir, what I'm getting at is it's the

Page 12163

1 commander that applies those regulations, not the

2 operations officer or the deputy commander or the chief

3 of staff. It's the commander that has the legal

4 responsibility and the legal power to do that; is that

5 correct, sir?

6 A. Yes, the commander is the most responsible

7 person in the control and command of a particular unit.

8 Q. In fact, the commander is responsible for

9 everything his unit does or fails to do; isn't that

10 right, sir?

11 A. Yes, the commander.

12 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much. Your

13 Honour, I'll pass the witness.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other questions,

15 please?

16 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, if I might, I

17 have not had a chance to visit with this witness very

18 long, and if I could just have a moment in the morning,

19 I may have --

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have any

21 questions, please ask them.

22 MS. McMURREY: No. I don't have any at this

23 time, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions by the

25 Prosecution?

Page 12164

1 MR. TURONE: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.


3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Salihamidzic. My name is

4 Giuliano Turone, and I am attorney for the Prosecution

5 and I would like to ask you a limited number of

6 questions, if you don't mind.

7 I will focus, at least for the moment, on the

8 period when you went to Konjic after August 1992. You

9 said that you joined the TO staff in August 1992, and

10 later on we saw the appointing document of 16

11 September, '92, the Konjic municipal staff appointed

12 you to perform the duty of deputy staff head for the

13 intelligence service in the army staff of Konjic; is

14 that correct?

15 A. I had two appointments. One was the

16 appointment for operations and tactical affairs and the

17 other was for intelligence affairs, and I think that

18 you have seen those documents.

19 Q. Yes, yes, I just wanted to remember the

20 area. In this capacity of yours within the Konjic

21 municipality, the first one in August and the second

22 one as intelligence officer, did you get to know who

23 had a position of superiority regarding prisons in the

24 territory of Konjic?

25 A. That was not something I inquired into. It

Page 12165

1 was not my area of interest as an intelligence

2 officer. My area of interest were the enemy

3 territories --

4 Q. I know quite well that.

5 A. -- which means the front, so that my interest

6 could not focus on something at hand. That was not of

7 any interest to me as an intelligence officer. That

8 didn't interest me.

9 Q. I understand that and I accept it quite well;

10 I have no difficulty with that. But I'm just asking

11 you, since you were, in any case, an officer, a

12 military with the higher rank in the municipality and

13 you had an --

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: I object, Your Honours. The

15 witness has said that he didn't know.

16 MR. TURONE: I would like to be allowed to

17 finish my further question.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Put the question to

19 him.

20 MR. TURONE: Yes.

21 Q. I take it that it is not your field of

22 interest. But since you were an officer for

23 intelligence services and you had, I take it, a wide

24 knowledge of the military situation in the municipality

25 of Konjic, my question is whether you did, in any case,

Page 12166

1 get any information whatsoever about the persons who

2 might have had a position of superiority regarding

3 prisons in the area of Konjic?

4 If you have no idea whatsoever, you can just

5 answer that you do not know. But if you had a chance

6 to get indirectly any information, even if that was not

7 the real field of your interests, please tell us if you

8 had any information like that, if you got to know

9 something like that.

10 A. I engaged in intelligence matters for a very

11 brief period of time. I think it was a period of one

12 month. There was constant shelling and preparations

13 for combat. My prime responsibility was to collect as

14 much information as possible from others. I am not

15 able to give you a concrete answer to your question.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Turone, I think we

17 will stop here.

18 MR. TURONE: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will resume tomorrow

20 morning at 10 a.m.

21 MR. TURONE: Okay, thank you.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. We will

23 resume tomorrow at ten.

24 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 5.36 p.m.

25 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of

Page 12167

1 May, 1998 at 10.00 a.m.