Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12168

1 --- Upon commencing at 10.10 a.m.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

3 gentlemen. Can we have the appearances, please?

4 MR. TURONE: Good morning, Your Honours. My

5 name is Turone and I am appear with my colleague, Ms.

6 McHenry and with the case manager Mr. Huber for the

7 Prosecution. Thank you.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the

9 appearances for the Defence, please?

10 (Court reporter's headphones not working)

11 MR. MORAN: Judge, we seem to be having a

12 problem with the court reporter hearing something.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Can it be heard now? Can

14 the English booth be heard?

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may continue.

16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm

17 Tomislav Kuzmanovic along with my colleague, our legal

18 assistant, Niko Duric are here for Zlavko Mucic. Thank

19 you.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, because I see

21 no text after my name, may I repeat? I'm Edina

22 Residovic, Defence counsel -- shall I repeat it?

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can repeat it.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: My name is Edina Residovic

25 appearing on behalf of Mr. Zejnil Delalic along with my

Page 12169

1 colleague Professor Eugene O'Sullivan from Canada.

2 Thank you, Your Honours.

3 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

4 I'm Salih Karabdic attorney from Sarajevo appearing on

5 behalf of Mr. Hazim Delic along with Thomas Moran,

6 attorney from Houston, Texas.

7 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours.

8 I'm Cynthia McMurrey appearing for Mr. Esad Landzo

9 along with Ms. Nancy Boler. Thank you.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the

11 witness?

12 (The witness entered court)

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly inform the

14 witness he is still under oath.

15 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

16 are still under oath.

17 THE WITNESS: I understand that.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Turone, you can

19 proceed now.

20 MR. TURONE: Thank you, Your Honour.



23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Salihamidzic.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. So we can go on with my questions, I wanted

Page 12170

1 to ask you, Mr. Salihamidzic, in the period you spent

2 in Konjic after August '92 as operations officer and

3 then as intelligence officer, did you become aware that

4 the Celebici barracks was used as a detention facility

5 for Serb prisoners?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you ever have a chance to visit this

8 detention facility?

9 A. Not the prison, but in 1992, I did go there

10 to collect some weapons. When Ljuta fell, I was the

11 commander in Jablanica and I went there to take over a

12 part of the armaments that were there at our disposal.

13 Q. Did you know at that time, that Celebici was

14 already, at that time, a prison, didn't you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you ever get to know who was the

17 commander of the Celebici detention facility?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you please tell us?

20 A. Mr. Pavo Mucic.

21 Q. Do you know who was the deputy commander

22 also?

23 A. I can't remember that.

24 Q. All right, thank you. Can you remember,

25 approximately, when you learned that Mr. Pavo Mucic was

Page 12171

1 the commander of the Celebici prison?

2 A. This was around the end of August or,

3 actually, in August, something like that.

4 Q. Did you personally meet Mr. Mucic?

5 A. I knew him personally from before because the

6 village where my wife comes from and just across the

7 Neretva River is his place called Spiljani, and I know

8 his brother who was there throughout the war, as well

9 as the rest of his immediate family.

10 Q. All right, thank you. Mr. Salihamidzic, you

11 testified about some contacts you had with Mr. Jerko

12 Kostic. Do you know that Jerko Kostic was a member of

13 an investigating commission entrusted with the task of

14 interrogating and classifying the prisoners in

15 Celebici?

16 A. During my conversation with Mr. Jerko Kostic,

17 and I knew him from before when he worked in the state

18 security service in Mostar, I didn't get any

19 information from him that he was involved in those

20 activities because I told you yesterday what it was

21 that he was dealing with. So I couldn't infer from the

22 conversation what actually he was doing because he

23 didn't ask me any questions in that regard.

24 Q. I understand that you're saying that you

25 didn't get any specific information about this

Page 12172

1 commission and Jerko Kostic's work in it; is that what

2 you're saying?

3 A. No. The subject, the two of us were

4 discussing, I and Jerko Kostic, was not what you are

5 now asking me about.

6 Q. I understand that but my question was more

7 general. Were you and are you aware that, in any case,

8 Mr. Kostic was a member of that commission?

9 A. No, I had no occasion to learn that.

10 Q. Apart from the commission, et cetera, did

11 Jerko Kostic ever tell you anything about the prison of

12 Celebici?

13 A. I do not have a great deal of confidence in

14 people who used to work for the state security service,

15 so that I couldn't come to any conclusions about what

16 you're asking me, no.

17 Q. Did you ever hear from any source any report

18 or any information whatsoever about mistreatment of

19 prisoners in Celebici?

20 A. Reports in writing were not accessible to me

21 in that time period, so I had no occasion to read any

22 such reports.

23 Q. I'm not talking about written reports. I'm

24 talking about media reports and information whatsoever,

25 you know, even TV, newspaper reports or any other

Page 12173

1 information oral heard by you, not necessarily in

2 writing?

3 A. I'm a literate man. I do read the papers,

4 and if something is written in the papers, everyone

5 must have known about it. The papers carried such

6 reports. Whether those reports are correct or not, I

7 cannot say.

8 Q. Is that your testimony, that you read

9 something about the possibility of mistreatment having

10 taken place in Celebici; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, yes. Such reports appeared in various

12 newspapers.

13 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Delalic interviewed on

14 television about reports and rumours of mistreatment in

15 Celebici, some specific TV broadcasting?

16 A. More recently, you mean? When these trials

17 began, this was shown on our television programme. I

18 think this was done by an international organisation,

19 and every month or every week, there would be a report

20 about the trials going on here.

21 Q. But my question was another one. Did you

22 happen to see in 1991 Mr. Delalic interviewed on

23 television about some reports -- 1992, I'm sorry, 1992,

24 Mr. Delalic interviewed on television about reports

25 and/or rumours of mistreatment in Celebici?

Page 12174

1 A. No, I didn't have occasion to see that.

2 Q. All right, thank you very much. Let's go now

3 to the previous period when you were a commander of TO

4 headquarters in Jablanica. I have just a few questions

5 on that. You testified that you were appointed to that

6 post by the ministry of defence upon a proposal of the

7 Jablanica municipal assembly. Is this what you

8 testified to?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. TURONE: May I have the assistance of the

11 usher in showing the witness a document? We have

12 copies for their Honours and for the Defence. There is

13 the original Bosnian language and English translation.

14 Q. I ask you to wait just a few seconds and see

15 this document. If you look at this document, my

16 question is --

17 A. Just a moment, please.

18 MR. TURONE: I don't know if the witness has

19 the documents already.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution document 245.


22 Q. Mr. Salihamidzic, is this the decision of the

23 Jablanica municipal assembly proposing you as TO

24 commander?

25 A. I have seen this document. I don't notice

Page 12175

1 the official stamp on it, on this document. Anyone

2 could have written it.

3 Q. I understand that. This is how the document

4 was provided to us by Ms. Residovic, I believe. In any

5 case, my question is: Do you recognise it, because if

6 you believe that this is not a correct document, just

7 say that and I would not even tender it. If you say

8 whether it has or not a stamp you recall and remember

9 the document as such, please tell me whether you

10 recognise it as such, otherwise just tell me what you

11 think about this document.

12 A. I will tell you. Mr. Sefer called me and we

13 talked about whether I would accept to be as a senior

14 officer with certain capabilities in the area of

15 organisation and command and I accepted. The procedure

16 that I insisted upon, because I'm very familiar with

17 these procedures, was the one that was confirmed in the

18 document that I offered to this honourable court.

19 Whether Mr. Sefer in certain documents of

20 relevance to himself took such a decision, I don't

21 know, it is possible. But what is of relevance to me,

22 as a senior officer, is the decision of my superior

23 command and the document adopted by that command.

24 MR. TURONE: May I ask that this document be

25 kept as marked for identification only for future

Page 12176

1 needs?

2 Q. Mr. Salihamidzic, are you aware that the day

3 after your appointment on 17 April, or is that true

4 that the Jablanica municipality assembly nominated or

5 proposed, for the same post of TO commander, another

6 person, that is, Stipe Kopilas. Was my question clear?

7 A. Very clear. That gentleman, Stipe Kopilas,

8 could only be the chief of staff and not the commander,

9 and that is what he officially was. He was my chief of

10 staff because my staff was heterogeneous in composition,

11 which means it consisted of Bosniaks, myself, my

12 deputy, the chief of staff, the assistant for morality

13 was Manigodic Zoran and so on. So that my command

14 was heterogeneous or multi-ethnic in composition. My

15 answer is in the affirmative. Stipe Kopilas was

16 proposed as chief of staff and he was appointed through

17 the same procedure as myself.

18 Q. Would you agree with me that in May 1992,

19 Jablanica had a crisis headquarters?

20 A. No. There is a regulation from the former

21 period when crisis staffs existed in peace time. Then

22 a special decision was taken later on, when the crisis

23 staff ceased to exist, but instead, there were the war

24 presidencies which functioned in those circumstances in

25 which the assembly could not function.

Page 12177

1 In my municipality, the assembly functioned

2 and occasionally when it was unable to meet, the war

3 presidency functioned as well. We had the good fortune

4 for this to be possible.

5 Q. I would like to show you another document,

6 Mr. Salihamidzic.

7 MR. TURONE: May I ask the usher to show this

8 document to the witness? I have copies for their

9 Honours and the Defence.

10 Q. Mr. Salihamidzic, take your time. You can

11 look at this document and just tell me when you are

12 ready to answer my question.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution document 246.


15 Q. Mr. Salihamidzic, you see that this document

16 is dated 6 May, '92 and is published on the Jablanica

17 official gazette. Would you agree with me that

18 according to this document we should argue that the

19 crisis headquarters existed and was in charge of

20 organising the joint system of defence on the territory

21 of the municipality? That's the point 1 in the

22 decision you just read, a joint system of defence shall

23 be organised in the Jablanica municipality area

24 consisting of the Territorial Defence forces, the

25 Croatian Defence Council, Green Berets, and all others,

Page 12178

1 et cetera.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I object to

3 this question, as the witness has already explained

4 about the crisis staff and I also do not see the

5 relevance of the question, in view of the contents of

6 the indictment.

7 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, since this document

8 is not completely consistent of the possibility that

9 now crisis headquarters existed in May, '92, I think I

10 am entitled to ask the witness to answer this

11 question.

12 JUDGE JAN: Is this matter in issue before

13 us?

14 MR. TURONE: Well, it's a general issue of

15 the power of war presidencies and crisis headquarters

16 to issue military orders to deal with military matters,

17 to deal with defence organisation, et cetera, so this

18 is a relevant issue in the opinion of the Prosecution,

19 Your Honour.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's a general

21 principle, is it, that the war presidencies can issue

22 as to military commands?

23 MR. TURONE: Not the general principle, Your

24 Honour, I said general issue, which is relevant to the

25 case because --

Page 12179

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In respect of Jablanica

2 municipality, is it?

3 MR. TURONE: In respect to the authority of,

4 war presidencies in general, of a crisis headquarters

5 in general, in any municipality.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How does this portray

7 that? How does this support that theory?

8 MR. TURONE: One of the issues, of this case,

9 is that some topics were regulated in a given sense by

10 laws and worked in a different sense as a matter of

11 fact. So this is one issue. But if Your Honour

12 doesn't think that this is relevant, I withdraw any

13 question about that.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't see the

15 relevance of this, with this you're trying to bring

16 out. It has nothing to do with it.

17 MR. TURONE: If Your Honour directs me to

18 pass on, I will do that, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You must establish what

20 you intend to say, this is what I am saying. And it is

21 not, both in your own interest and the interest of the

22 administration of justice in this trial, for you to

23 pursue this type of argument. This does not disclose

24 anything.

25 MR. TURONE: I will not press it.

Page 12180

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You're saying that the

2 Jablanica municipality operates on behalf of the rest

3 of the municipalities.


5 Q. I pass to another topic, Mr. Salihamidzic.

6 You testified that about 50 soldiers from all of

7 Jablanica were subordinated to TG-1 for Tinovo Brdo

8 Operation when TG-1 was commanded by Polutak. My

9 question is: Were any soldiers from the TO of

10 Jablanica subordinated to TG-1 also later on when the

11 commander was Zejnil Delalic?

12 A. The composition of my military constricts was

13 also heterogeneous. It is something I wish to tell

14 their Honours. There were 50 combatants among whom

15 there were both Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks. They

16 participated at Tinovo Brdo and they subordinated

17 themselves to the superior command of Tactical Group 1

18 of which Polutak was the commander.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: All he asked you was

20 whether, during the time that Ramic was commander of

21 Tactical Group 1, were officers of Jablanica succoured

22 to him too. This is what he's asking. Same as which

23 what happened during the attack of Polutak. Did it

24 also happen during the time of Delalic?

25 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, he mentioned Tinovo

Page 12181

1 Brdo and Mr. Polutak and not Delalic, so I am trying to

2 answer that question.

3 MR. TURONE: Sorry, maybe there was some

4 misunderstanding in the translation because, actually,

5 my question was exactly what Your Honour explained. I

6 said we know you testified about 50 soldiers being

7 subordinated to TG-1 or Mr. Polutak at that time. But

8 what happened later on, were any soldiers from TO,

9 Jablanica, subordinated to TG-1 also later on when the

10 commander was Zejnil Delalic?

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the witness

12 answered this question because he moved to Konjic. He

13 answered to this in the examination-in-chief.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The story of the

15 composition of his own units and that it was absolute

16 features, that is what he was saying. But that has

17 nothing to do with the answer, what is the exercise

18 during Polutak's regime was also repeated when Delalic

19 was commander. This is the question. You may have

20 prepared answers which may not conform with questions

21 and the question is what he's supposed to answer.

22 THE WITNESS: May I answer that question?

23 MR. TURONE: Yes, please.

24 THE WITNESS: Units from Jablanica, whose

25 commander I was, and after that I went to Konjic, they

Page 12182

1 did go there, but they were under the Tactical Group 2

2 in another area, in the direction of Tinovo.


4 Q. So no soldier was subordinated to Tactical

5 Group 1 at the time Delalic was the commander, is this

6 your answer?

7 A. Yes, yes, as far as I know.

8 Q. Okay, Mr. Salihamidzic, when did you leave as

9 TO commander of Jablanica?

10 JUDGE JAN: August, he said. August he said

11 yesterday.

12 THE WITNESS: I testified to that yesterday.


14 Q. Isn't that true that you were removed from

15 your post of TO commander of Jablanica some time in

16 June, '92, by Mato Sarlija also known as Daldza?

17 A. That information is wrong. I was only

18 arrested, but not removed. Not removed, but arrested

19 and then again put back to that.

20 Q. I see. I come now to a more general question

21 of the indictment, almost at the end. When you were

22 questioned on cross-examination by Mr. Moran, you

23 testified that a commander has the authority to issue

24 orders to his subordinates and to punish them if the

25 orders are not followed. Do you agree with me that if

Page 12183

1 the commander is not present, the same power belongs to

2 the deputy commander?

3 A. Only if he is authorised by his superior to

4 do this in writing, everything else would just be

5 purely arbitrary decisions.

6 Q. And who takes care of the discipline if the

7 commander is not present for a significant period of

8 time?

9 A. The one whom he authorises.

10 Q. Do you mean that all the -- I withdraw it.

11 You testified that in certain respects, and

12 specifically intelligence, Mr. Delalic could give

13 orders to the Konjic TO and you saw a document

14 yesterday to this respect. This order from Mr. Delalic

15 to the Konjic --

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, that is not

17 what the witness said. The witness was talking about

18 an order and the directive from the supreme command.

19 MR. TURONE: This is what I understood

20 yesterday, actually. Didn't you say that when you were

21 talking about -- if there's a misunderstanding, just

22 clarify please and I will take it. But didn't you say

23 yesterday that in certain respects and specific

24 intelligence, Mr. Delalic could give orders to the

25 Konjic TO? Didn't you say that concerning the document

Page 12184

1 signed by Delalic which was showed to you?

2 A. I didn't say that way, but we were obligated

3 as intelligence department, either in Pasaric,

4 Jablanica, to support the tactical group by

5 intelligence. That is, to support tactical group which

6 did not have its own command and was involved in a very

7 important task of trying to leave decisions to

8 Sarajevo. So we had obligation to provide him with

9 intelligence in order to make that operation as

10 successful as possible. Had the commander of the

11 tactical group, have a developed intelligence unit, he

12 could have, with our assistance, to more successfully

13 resolve problems that we had. But he did not have any

14 authority to issue orders to the municipal staffs,

15 either to Jablanica or Konjic in terms of issuing

16 orders. Only the units who arrived in this area were

17 under his command and control and I said yesterday, as

18 soon as the operation is finished, these units are

19 returned to their original places and are again placed

20 under the command of their own municipal staff.

21 Q. All right, thank you very much, Mr.

22 Salihamidzic.

23 MR. TURONE: This concludes my

24 cross-examination, Your Honour, thank you.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination of

Page 12185

1 this witness?

2 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:

3 Q. Ms. Salihamidzic, when asked by the

4 Prosecutor whether you followed, whether Mr. Delalic

5 was -- had given any statements, you said that you had

6 been following this and that you had heard about it.

7 Tell me, did you, during this trial, also read and hear

8 about mistreatment of prisoners in Celebici? Was this

9 in the same period of time that you read and heard?

10 A. What month are you talking about?

11 Q. My question to you is based on your answer

12 that you had been reading newspapers and that, and then

13 when asked by the Prosecutor, you said that prisoners

14 were mistreated at Celebici and then you said, when

15 asked whether Mr. Delalic was doing that, that you said

16 that's what you read. My question to you is, have you

17 been reading this, during this trial, on this alleged

18 mistreatment of prisoners in Celebici?

19 A. No.

20 Q. When and in which newspaper did you learn

21 about this?

22 A. I did not read about it here, no, not here,

23 but in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 Q. During this trial, during the time period

25 that covers this trial?

Page 12186

1 A. I did not have an opportunity, I did read

2 about it, but I cannot recall where. I read about the

3 trials here and what these persons are accused of.

4 Q. Is this the only information about alleged

5 mistreatment of prisoners in Celebici?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Can you recall any newspaper where you may

8 have read about this?

9 A. I really cannot. I may have misspoken, but I

10 cannot recall.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- cross-examination.


13 Q. I only want to ask, were any newspapers

14 published in Konjic in 1992?

15 A. No, during the entire war, they were not,

16 only after the war. Just in order in not to

17 misunderstand each other, we -- during the war, we did

18 not have any opportunity to read newspapers. So it was

19 after the war and that is what I talked about.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours, I

21 have no further questions of this witness.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much, we

23 are very grateful.

24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have your next

Page 12187

1 witness, please.

2 (The witness withdrew)

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: The next witness is Emin

4 Zebic.

5 Your Honours, just briefly as you suggested,

6 you will recall General Divjak's testimony, he

7 explained what regulations provided for the armed

8 forces. It was MUP, TO and the HVO. During the

9 presentation of evidence for the Defence, I will call

10 two representatives of the MUP. This is a MUP

11 representative from Jablanica and he can confirm

12 certain facts that have already been presented here.

13 And the other MUP representatives will be from Konjic

14 and all this relates to the issue whether Zejnil

15 Delalic at any point was commander of all armed

16 forces.

17 (The witness entered court)

18 JUDGE JAN: -- examined MUP representative

19 from Konjic instead of going to Jablanica.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Excuse me?

21 JUDGE JAN: Examine MUP representative from

22 Konjic, instead of going to --

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise, Your Honours,

24 but I am not getting the interpretation through.

25 JUDGE JAN: Why not examine the

Page 12188

1 representative of MUP from Konjic instead of examining

2 a representative from the neighbouring municipality?

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, both have been

4 included in the witness list. The Prosecution claims

5 that Zejnil Delalic was commander of all armed forces

6 in the area, including Jablanica, Prozor, Hadzici and

7 Konjic. And in the witness, Vasagic's (phoen)

8 testimony, it came out, that this witness will be able

9 to authenticate documents that are contained in the

10 expert witness report. So this witness serves a dual

11 purpose therefore.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly swear the

13 witness.

14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

15 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

16 truth.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you please take

18 your seats.

19 Examination by Ms. Residovic:

20 Q. Please introduce yourself by stating your

21 full name?

22 A. I am Emin Zebic.

23 Q. Mr. Zebic, this is something that I keep

24 repeating, but it is important. We speak the same

25 language. In order for the court and everybody else

Page 12189

1 present here to be able to follow our exchange, after I

2 ask you a question, will you please listen to the sound

3 coming out of the second headset and when you hear that

4 out, please answer my question. Is that clear to you,

5 sir?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Zebic, will you please tell

8 the court when and where were you born?

9 A. I was born on 25 April 1945 in Jablanica.

10 Q. Can you tell me what is your citizenship?

11 A. I am a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 Q. What is your education and what are you by

13 profession?

14 A. I graduated from a training college in

15 political science and I am a teacher of physics and

16 mathematics.

17 Q. Mr. Zebic, where were you at the beginning of

18 the war, in which town and what position?

19 A. In early 1992, I was in Jablanica. I worked

20 in the granite processing plant in Jablanica.

21 Q. Did you, at some time in 1992, join the

22 defence forces in Jablanica?

23 A. As early as April, 1992, I joined the efforts

24 to organise the defence of the Jablanica municipality.

25 Q. Mr. Zebic, did you stay in this position or

Page 12190

1 did you move on to other duties in the defence forces?

2 A. As early as 8 May, I moved to duty in the

3 ministry of the interior and I was appointed commander

4 of the public security station in Jablanica.

5 Q. Mr. Zebic who appointed you to the commander

6 of the public security station in Jablanica?

7 A. Pursuant to the law which was in effect then

8 as it is today, commander of the public security

9 station, including myself, was appointed by the

10 minister of the interior of the republic of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 Q. Mr. Zebic, do you know who, at the time when

13 you were appointed commander, was the Territorial

14 Defence staff commander in Jablanica?

15 A. The commander of the TO staff in Jablanica at

16 the time was Mr. Zijad Salihamidzic.

17 Q. Mr. Zebic, do you know whether the

18 Territorial Defence had any weapons at its disposal

19 where it was and did you, at the public security

20 station in Jablanica, have any weapons?

21 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Salihamidzic already spoken

22 about it. The answer there in Konjic and the place

23 (inaudible) and you only got about 20 per cent of the

24 arms for which the municipal defence already paid for.

25 You got evidence in that.

Page 12191

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

2 Q. Let me just ask you whether the public

3 security station had any weapons of its own.

4 A. The public security station did have its own

5 weapons that belonged to it according to the

6 organisational structure of the service.

7 Q. Tell me, Mr. Zebic, for how long did you hold

8 the position of chief of the public security station in

9 Jablanica in 1992?

10 A. Throughout 1992, I was chief of the public

11 security station in Jablanica.

12 Q. Mr. Zebic, in view of the position you held,

13 were you a member of the war presidency of Jablanica

14 municipality?

15 A. Yes, in accordance with our regulations, I

16 was also a member of the war presidency.

17 Q. Was the war presidency superior to you?

18 A. The war presidency is a civilian body, but it

19 was not superior to the public security station.

20 Q. Which was your superior body in 1992?

21 A. The public security station is a component

22 part of the ministry of internal affairs of the

23 republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, therefore, only the

24 minister of the interior is superior to the public

25 security station.

Page 12192

1 Q. As chief of the public security station,

2 Mr. Zebic, were you aware that the SDS of Konjic was

3 arming a part of the Serb population and the members

4 of the SDS of Jablanica?

5 A. Yes, we had such information.

6 Q. What steps did you take in response to this

7 information, Mr. Zebic?

8 A. Perhaps I should inform their Honours that in

9 the territory of Jablanica municipality, there was four

10 per cent of the population were Serbs, that relations

11 ever since before the second World War, which was

12 strengthened during the second world war, were very

13 good, that members of various ethnic groups respected

14 one another and had good relations amongst themselves.

15 And that even then, we wanted to preserve this mutual

16 respect that we had for one another. That is why, in

17 accordance with such a position, we called on the Serb

18 population to surrender those weapons, to surrender

19 them to us in the public security station.

20 Q. Was that done?

21 A. After a conversation I personally had with

22 representatives of the Serb people, the Serb

23 inhabitants did surrender their weapons to the public

24 security station.

25 Q. In view of this testimony and the fact that

Page 12193

1 this witness personally conducted these activities, I

2 should like the witness to be shown Exhibit 144 annex

3 D/4. Since this consists of a large number of

4 documents, I should like to ask them to be marked for

5 identification. I will tender them as a set and one

6 number so that the witness may be able to recognise his

7 signature and thus authenticate the documents which are

8 already in evidence. I have enough copies for their

9 Honours, the Prosecution and the witness.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the document

11 supposed to portray? What does it show?

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: The document confirms the

13 submission of the Defence that the SDS was arming its

14 members and also that the legal authorities tried by

15 peaceful means to halt those illegal activities. Judge

16 Jan remembered that, in the area of Jablanica, they did

17 surrender their weapons and that they continued to live

18 peacefully without any pressure from the legal

19 authorities. This is in contradiction with the

20 neighbouring municipality where they took up arms

21 against the lawful authorities.

22 It is not directly related, but since it

23 supports a part of the testimony of the expert witness

24 and is part of the supporting material of that

25 testimony, you told us that we should authenticate

Page 12194

1 those documents by the author of those documents, and

2 the witness before us is one such author, so that this

3 part of the documentation can be authenticated by a

4 competent person. These are parts of the evidence.

5 Obviously such evidence which is authenticated in this

6 way, is important for the whole process of justice.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We have heard for so

8 many minutes and so many words that the Jablanica group

9 is more law abiding than the Konjic group where they

10 did not surrender their weapons and had to be

11 disloyal. That is what you're trying to say, isn't

12 it?

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. The Prosecution is

14 raising the question of legitimacy.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And all for which your

16 client has been charged, that certain disloyalties in

17 Konjic municipality resulted in certain things

18 happening, that is what happened, not in Jablanica.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, but one of the counts of

20 the indictment is unlawful arrest and detention.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. Any unlawful

22 arrest and detention in Jablanica?

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: No. In any country -- Your

24 Honours, I don't know whether we understand one

25 another.

Page 12195

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How can we when we have

2 two different approaches to the issue? You can tender

3 as many things as you like, if you think it is

4 relevant, but I do not think it is.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness has been called

6 because it was the suggestion of the Trial Chamber that

7 these documents can only be authenticated by the author

8 of those documents and that person is here before us,

9 so I thought it would be useful for him --

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Counsel know what they

11 should do when a witness who should tender the

12 documents comes in. If it is only documents he has

13 come to tender, you put the documents to him and he

14 tenders them. We know how you tender documents. You

15 tell him the original of it, how he has made them and

16 don't tell us those stories about what happened in the

17 whole situation. If documents is what you have called

18 him to tender, then let him tender the documents or do

19 they have to be relevant too. Not merely because you

20 make a document, can you bring them in.

21 JUDGE JAN: You probably want to show that

22 the conduct of the Serb population in Jablanica was

23 different from what you encountered in Konjic. He has

24 already given us testimony in regard to this situation,

25 that they surrendered their weapons and they lived

Page 12196

1 happily and their was no problem there. He can say

2 that, being head of the security department.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We have heard evidence

4 about the Ostrozac community where they were living and

5 they are living happily even to today. We have heard

6 evidence on that. These things do happen, not

7 everybody behaves the same way. But when you come to

8 defending events which have happened, the evidence the

9 Trial Chamber requests is the event itself and what

10 gave rise to the charges; although that's what the

11 Prosecution should do, not necessarily the Defence, but

12 you have your own way of defending so you can carry

13 on.

14 JUDGE JAN: I can well understand your case

15 is that these persons arrested from Bradina, Donje

16 Selo, and there's another locality, they really

17 rebelled against the state authority, but that's your

18 case.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: I'm just trying to show that

20 where no one committed any offences and didn't rebel

21 against the state, nothing happened.

22 JUDGE JAN: You can ask him already and he

23 can tell you. Why unnecessarily get involved in those

24 documents? He's a support expert. He's speaking. He

25 is head of the security and he knew what was happening

Page 12197

1 in his municipality.


3 Q. Mr. Zebic, at the time, did you personally

4 draw up an official report on the basis of which an

5 agreement was reached on the peaceful surrender of

6 weapons by the Serb population?

7 A. Yes, I drew up an official report on that

8 talk that we had.

9 Q. Did you draw up that official report together

10 with the representative of the Jablanica SDS, Mr. Zuza?

11 A. Yes, Mr. Ranko Zuza was a representative of

12 the Serb people in the area of Jablanica municipality

13 and we did it together.

14 Q. Mr. Zebic, did you personally sign every

15 receipt on weapons surrendered by this population?

16 A. Yes, I did so personally.

17 Q. Did you hand over all those documents to the

18 expert witness for the needs of his expert report?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Does each of those documents bear your

21 signature?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. After that, did any person of Serb ethnicity

24 get arrested in Jablanica municipality?

25 A. No one was arrested because I said that we

Page 12198

1 wanted to continue to nurture good relations with the

2 Serbs.

3 Q. In spite of that, did Serb information media

4 carry reports on arrests and torching of Serb villages

5 in your area?

6 A. Yes. There were several such reports in the

7 mass media in Serbia which spoke of the torching of

8 Serb villages and the persecution of Serb inhabitants.

9 Q. Do you know, Mr. Zebic, that it was Serbs and

10 Mr. Zuza himself who handed over these documents denied

11 such lies carried by these mass media?

12 A. Of course I know that, and I have a video to

13 that effect and I have brought it with me.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, to confirm the

15 credibility of this witness, we have not only the

16 documents but also a short videotape showing Serbs from

17 Ostrozac and Dobrigosce. And if you consider that we

18 could view a minute or two of this tape, I would like

19 to tender it into evidence.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't consider it

21 necessary. I think his testimony will be sufficient

22 for the purpose.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

24 Q. Mr. Zebic, in accordance with the law on the

25 armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did the MUP or,

Page 12199

1 rather, the reserve force of MUP, are they also a

2 component part of the armed forces of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

4 A. Yes, that was regulated by the law in force

5 at the time. The police was a component part of the

6 armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 Q. However --

8 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute, I don't

9 understand. MUP has its own structure coming directly

10 under the ministry of the interior. TO defence has its

11 own structure coming directly under the ministry of

12 defence. In a state of war, the MUP also comes under

13 the ministry of defence or it still retains its

14 independent connector? I hope you have understood what

15 I've asked.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The MUP is under the

17 ministry of the interior.

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is exactly so. The

19 "MUP" is an abbreviation for the "Ministry of Internal

20 Affairs".


22 Q. To make it clear to the court, please tell

23 me, Mr. Zebic, whether in certain combat operations

24 could MUP units be subordinated to the TO staff for

25 that particular operation, being a component part of

Page 12200

1 the armed forces?

2 A. Yes. The basis for this can be found in the

3 law that I mentioned a moment ago, the law on defence.

4 Therefore, units of the ministry of the interior could

5 be transferred to the command of the Territorial

6 Defence if the MUP, the ministry of the interior, gives

7 such an order.

8 Q. The remaining units of the ministry of the

9 interior which were not subordinated in that way to the

10 Territorial Defence for combat needs, under whose

11 jurisdiction were they? To make it simpler, those who

12 are not subordinated to the TO, who was their superior?

13 A. Those who are not transferred to other units,

14 they remained within the jurisdiction of the public

15 security station to which they belong.

16 Q. Mr. Zebic, do you know Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, before we go on to that

18 question, Your Honours, in view of the fact that the

19 witness has -- viewing Exhibit D144 that he has before

20 him, since he has confirmed that each document bears

21 his signature, I should like to tender them into

22 evidence.

23 MS. McHENRY: For the record, the Prosecution

24 objects on grounds of relevancy.

25 JUDGE JAN: Maybe she wants to show the

Page 12201

1 status of the detainees with regard to the role they

2 played, and she wants to bring in these documents to

3 show that those Serbs who cooperated with the

4 authorities remained unharmed. That's probably what

5 she wants to do.

6 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, if the same

7 authorities in Jablanica -- if the authorities were the

8 same in Jablanica and Konjic, I would agree that there

9 might be some relevance, but given what Ms. Residovic

10 has said and what this witness has said, we don't

11 believe it's relevant. In fact, you will note that the

12 indictment doesn't contain any charges about events in

13 Jablanica. We would also point out, just for the

14 record, that the Prosecution has never stated that

15 there were not some prisoners of war in Celebici. We

16 have never stated that every person in Celebici was a

17 civilian.

18 JUDGE JAN: That is a slightly different

19 position from what Mr. Niemann said. He said some of

20 the detainees were prisoners of war and some were

21 civilians. Now you're making the statement that they

22 are all civilians.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: She didn't say that.

24 MS. McHENRY: I'm sorry, sir. I said the

25 opposite. We have never said that they were all

Page 12202

1 civilians because that is not our position.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the witness has

3 recognised his own documents and his signatures, and

4 since the indictment says that Zejnil Delalic,

5 according to the document dated 27th of July, was

6 commander of all formations in that area too, I think

7 this is a significant and a relevant document from the

8 standpoint of the Defence.

9 This is the classical way for a document to

10 be authenticated, as far as I understand the

11 procedure. The Prosecution is trying to establish

12 certain details in their own way. I have tendered

13 them. It is up to Your Honours to decide.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I have told you from the

15 beginning, they are not relevant. Even for the

16 purposes for which you are trying to tender them, they

17 are not, because even if you want to show that a

18 document spoke about Delalic being commander of all the

19 forces, I don't see how this has any relevance to that

20 type of declaration. What these documents are showing

21 some internal arrangements in Jablanica were by

22 peaceful means. Instructions were issued for persons

23 to surrender their arms and they did, and they are

24 documents to authenticate that, if I'm correct in

25 interpreting what you say these documents are. That is

Page 12203

1 all these documents are trying to show.

2 How you think it supports charges against

3 persons in Konjic community, if at all, I didn't see

4 anywhere in the charges for not surrendering arms.

5 There were people captured either because they were

6 rebelling against the government and were taken to

7 Celebici prison. This is what happened there, so I

8 really didn't see the parallel.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours. Let me

10 try to make myself clearer. The Prosecution says that

11 civilians and other persons were illegally detained.

12 You have heard witnesses of the Prosecution and the

13 Defence talking about attempts to negotiate with the

14 population to surrender those illegal weapons and those

15 negotiations produced no results and the town was

16 attacked. In this way, we are showing that the legal

17 authorities did everything and that the arrest and

18 detention of persons was a legitimate act. This is one

19 of the counts of the indictment against not only my

20 client but also the others.

21 However, I have heard you, Your Honour, and,

22 of course, it is within your discretion. According to

23 rule 89, you can reject the evidence that I am

24 tendering.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If it is irrelevant. I

Page 12204

1 cannot reject evidence which is relevant. It would not

2 even be proper to do so.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: I have tried to the best of

4 my ability to explain why the Defence considers it is

5 relevant, so I appeal to you to make your ruling. I

6 cannot say more than to say that these documents

7 confirm the legitimate arrest and detention of persons

8 anywhere in Jablanica or in Konjic.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed with

10 other questions, if you have any.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. Zebic, the persons that you took over the

13 weapons from, peacefully, what part of Jablanica did

14 they live in?

15 A. Those persons lived in a settlement called

16 Ostrozac which is about 10 kilometres from Jablanica,

17 in the direction of Konjic.

18 Q. During the negotiations with representatives

19 of the Serb people from this area, did you know that

20 Zejnil Delalic too, as a neighbour of theirs, had

21 talked to these people?

22 A. Yes, while talking to them and also talking

23 to my associates, because in the police, I had people

24 of Serb ethnicity and others too living in Ostrozac.

25 And we learned that Mr. Zejnil Delalic was also urging

Page 12205

1 that disagreements be overcome by peaceful means,

2 including this problem of the illegal possession of

3 weapons.

4 Q. Though the court has learned about this fact

5 from some Prosecution and Defence witnesses, I should

6 just like to ask you whether you know where Zejnil

7 Delalic was born and grew up?

8 A. Of course I know. I met Zejnil Delalic while

9 he was still a young man. I worked in Ostrozac as a

10 teacher of physics and mathematics, and I even taught

11 some members of his family, so I know he was born in

12 Ostrozac.

13 Q. Thank you. Tell me now, Mr. Zebic, do you

14 know that Zejnil Delalic -- maybe you can tell us when

15 you learned about this. Do you know whether Zejnil

16 Delalic became a military commander of some sort?

17 A. According to my knowledge, he became a

18 military commander, I think, somewhere around the

19 beginning of August 1992.

20 Q. Do you know what is the position he acquired

21 then?

22 A. According to military doctrine, this is known

23 as a Tactical Group.

24 Q. In 1992, were you aware of the task of that

25 Tactical Group?

Page 12206

1 A. I didn't know the precise task, except

2 globally, that it involved attempts to deblock

3 Sarajevo.

4 Q. Tell me please, Mr. Zebic, as you too are a

5 component part of the armed forces pursuant to the law

6 on the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did Zejnil

7 Delalic, as commander of Tactical Group 1, at any point

8 in time in '92, was he a superior or a superior

9 commander to you or any of your units in 1992?

10 A. I think I was explaining a moment ago that

11 the only command authority is the ministry of the

12 interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina or, rather, the minister

13 of the interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina was the only one

14 who could give orders to public security stations or

15 police units.

16 Q. Mr. Zebic, as you were saying that sometimes

17 certain units could be resubordinated to TO staffs, in

18 1992, did any one of your police units come under the

19 command of one of the commanders of the Tactical Group?

20 A. Some of our smaller units but within the

21 units of the municipal staff, with the permission or,

22 rather, following the orders of the ministry of the

23 interior, were transferred to the Tactical Group whose

24 task was to lift the blockade of Sarajevo in the area

25 of Trnovo and also in the operation to liberate Tinovo

Page 12207

1 Brdo, as it was called.

2 Q. The remaining MUP units or the Jablanica

3 police station which did not participate in these two

4 operations, under whose jurisdiction were they; that

5 was, who was their commander or body in command of

6 them?

7 A. The remaining units were under my command as

8 I was the chief of the public security station.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I

10 think we can stop now and reassemble at noon.

11 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

13 (The witness entered court)

14 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

15 are still under oath.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Ms.

17 Residovic.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Q. Mr. Zebic, do you remember that a moment ago

20 you answered my question that certain units of MUP,

21 which were subordinate to municipal staff, were engaged

22 in fighting at Tinovo Brdo in the area towards Trnovo,

23 do you recall this?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, if you can remember, to whom were these

Page 12208

1 units subordinate in the first case, that is at Tinovo

2 Brdo, and to whom were they subordinate when they went

3 to Trnovo in order to lift the siege, and also if you

4 can recall when this was?

5 A. In the first case, the units, as far as I can

6 recall, were subordinate to Mr. Mustafa Polutak. And

7 in the second case, I think that the commanders

8 were Neletovic (phoen) and Alic.

9 Q. Mr. Zebic, as a chief of the public security

10 station, you may know this, was there a prison in

11 Jablanica in 1992?

12 A. No, in 1992, there was no prison in

13 Jablanica, and as far as I know, it had not existed

14 before that and it has not existed since.

15 Q. Do you know whether in 1992, in -- was there

16 a court or a public Prosecutor's office in Jablanica in

17 1992?

18 A. There was no court and there was no public

19 Prosecutor's office there in 1992.

20 Q. Did Jablanica have possibilities set forth,

21 by law, to set up a court or a public Prosecutor's

22 office?

23 A. The organisation of the public Prosecutor's

24 office and court, according to the law of that period,

25 was not in the competence of municipal authorities, so

Page 12209

1 that Jablanica municipality could not do it on its

2 own.

3 Q. This court has heard enough evidence

4 regarding the blockade and influx of refugees, but I am

5 going to ask you two pointed questions: Did a certain

6 amount of refugees also arrive in Jablanica during

7 1992, and if they did, where did they come from?

8 A. Yes, I witnessed a large number of refugees

9 coming to Jablanica in the early part of 1992. Many of

10 them arrived in Jablanica planning to stay there, but

11 when Jablanica filled up, they continued on, westward,

12 towards Croatia. That is when all the accommodation

13 that we had available, first, of course, the hotel

14 accommodations and then of school buildings, when all

15 of these was filled up, then the overflow of refugees

16 started moving westward.

17 Q. In 1992, what were the living conditions of

18 all of the people who lived in your area? Did you have

19 enough supplies for regular, normal living?

20 A. Jablanica is a small town, under 13,000

21 population and does not have great resources. And does

22 not have its own food production facilities.

23 Q. Were you going to add something?

24 A. Yes. I also wanted to add that we were cut

25 off from the south and we couldn't go to Sarajevo. You

Page 12210

1 could go to central Bosnia, so the food supplies, the

2 food stocks that we had in warehouses and privately, it

3 was all that was available and this coincided with the

4 large influx of refugees. So the living conditions

5 were very, very poor.

6 Q. Very well, let's move on to another area.

7 Mr. Zebic, do you know where Celebici is located and do

8 you know whether there was a barracks there? If you

9 know, that is.

10 A. Yes, I do know where Celebici is, it is a

11 small town on the main M-17 Highway between Jablanica

12 and Konjic, about 15 kilometres from Jablanica and

13 about 10 kilometres from Konjic. I know that from

14 before the war, that there were some military

15 facilities there. It is something that you can

16 actually see from the road.

17 Q. Did you find out at some point that there was

18 a prison there?

19 A. I had heard about it, but only later.

20 Q. Did you personally ever visit the prison in

21 1992?

22 A. No, I never visited it.

23 Q. Mr. Zebic, you started to say that you used

24 to -- that you knew Mr. Zejnil Delalic and his

25 family. Can you tell me whether, during 1992, you met

Page 12211

1 Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

2 A. Yes, I said that I knew him from much

3 earlier. I even knew his parents. Later on I learned

4 that he became a respected business person. And I also

5 learned that, in 1992, he came back to

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina and I even met him, sometime in

7 early June.

8 Q. What were the circumstances under which you

9 met him in June, and what was he engaged in at the

10 time?

11 A. I told you a moment ago what the general

12 situation was in the area where we lived. There was a

13 lack of all kinds of food and other goods. I had

14 personally heard that Mr. Delalic was in a position to

15 help provide certain supplies. And so, we turned to

16 him to try to help us find some equipment that we

17 needed for the police force.

18 Q. Thank you. Apart from that time, did you

19 ever meet Mr. Zejnil Delalic during 1992, either in

20 Jablanica or in Konjic?

21 A. Mr. Delalic became personally engaged in

22 trying to reopen the railroad aligned between Pasaric

23 and Jablanica. That was the only section of the

24 railroad which was open to traffic. So I saw him with

25 the railroad people there at that time because he was

Page 12212

1 personally, as I said, involved in it.

2 Q. Mr. Zebic, I have another area in which I

3 believe you may assist the Trial Chamber in this

4 matter. As a person who was working in the public

5 security station, can you tell us where the files are

6 kept on persons who have criminal records?

7 A. According to our regulations, the courts,

8 after the sentence comes into force, will send the

9 files to the place of residence of the person who had

10 been convicted.

11 Q. Mr. Zebic, did you at any time, on anyone's

12 request in 1996, verified information on the criminal

13 record of Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, let me state that,

16 I have stated this before, I am not objecting to the

17 question, and I am not exactly sure the point Ms.

18 Residovic is wanting to get at. But if she wishes to

19 bring in evidence of, in effect, the good reputation of

20 Mr. Delalic, we will be bringing in, and we certainly

21 will have the right to bring in, contrary evidence in

22 rebuttal.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, in the expert

24 report, there was a document and I just wanted to find

25 out whether this document was compiled with the

Page 12213

1 knowledge of the witness here. And I am not trying to

2 bring up what Ms. McHenry is suggesting, so it is just

3 to authenticate or corroborate a document from the

4 witness -- the expert witness report. And this also

5 would be my last question of this witness.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can ask questions

7 without putting his reputation in issue, that's

8 nothing. If your question does not put his reputation

9 in issue, it should be welcome. But if you do, then

10 the Prosecution will be entitled to suggest something

11 to the contrary later.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I am just trying

13 to present the facts that concern this indictment, his

14 personal life and reputation is not a matter for this

15 proceedings. But since this document came in, I just

16 wanted the make sure whether he verified the

17 authenticity of this document. But I don't know

18 whether -- I had just wanted to confirm the

19 authenticity of everything, of all the documents that

20 the expert witness submitted in his report. And I

21 think that this witness has confirmed that, therefore,

22 I have no further questions of this witness. Thank

23 you.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I

25 think it's okay. Any cross-examination?

Page 12214

1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Kuzmanovic:

3 Q. Good morning, sir.

4 A. Good morning.

5 Q. I have a few questions I would like to ask

6 you, but before I start asking you some question, if

7 you don't understand me, please indicate that you don't

8 understand me and I'll try to rephrase my question,

9 okay?

10 A. Very well.

11 Q. And I am going to be asking you also a series

12 of questions that require simply a yes or a no answer,

13 so I would ask that you restrict yourself to a yes or

14 no answer if you can, is that all right?

15 A. I will try.

16 Q. Thank you. During the course of your direct

17 examination, you talked about the situation in

18 Jablanica and I would like to talk a little bit about

19 that as well, okay?

20 A. Yes, go ahead.

21 Q. Before the war began, was there a court and

22 Prosecutor in Jablanica?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Could you tell me what responsibilities there

25 were during peacetime of the local authorities in

Page 12215

1 Jablanica with respect to prisons and prisoners?

2 JUDGE JAN: There was no prison in Jablanica,

3 he said so.

4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I am just laying a little

5 bit of foundation, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How can they have

7 responsibilities there?

8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I have a hypothetical

9 question here, let's assume that that the situation in

10 Jablanica was such that there was not the peaceful

11 transfer of weapons and the people did not give

12 themselves up peacefully, okay, that is the Serb

13 population. Do you understand me?

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Your hypothetical

15 example is still not complete.

16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Right, Your Honour, I just

17 want the make sure he understood what I have said thus

18 far.

19 JUDGE JAN: He's the head of security, he

20 must understand what you're saying.


22 Q. Where would you put 150 to 200 people, if you

23 needed to, that were detained in a hypothetical

24 situation, where you needed to have them in the time of

25 war?

Page 12216

1 A. It really is a hypothetical question and the

2 question can be a corresponding one. It would be in a

3 similar situation or a similar facility as those in

4 Konjic.

5 Q. And in that kind of a situation, there would

6 be an organisation, would there not, that would be

7 responsible for that prison, is that a fair statement?

8 A. If you're asking me with respect to

9 Jablanica, that prison was not in Jablanica and we

10 would have no authority there.

11 Q. I understand that. My question is a

12 hypothetical one, which deals with what if the same

13 kind of a situation existed in Jablanica? There would

14 be an organisation, would there not, that would be in

15 charge or responsible for the prison, correct?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Was there at any time after 1992, a prison in

18 Jablanica that existed, that held either military

19 personnel or civilians?

20 A. No, there was no prison whatsoever in

21 Jablanica.

22 Q. So are you telling me, sir, as head of

23 security if there were 150 to 200 people in Jablanica

24 that needed to be detained in a facility, that you

25 wouldn't know what organisation would be responsible

Page 12217

1 for that facility, is that what you're telling us?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I have no further questions,

4 thank Your Honours.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any further questions?

6 Because I didn't see you carry any papers at all.

7 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, that's because it's

8 going to be so short I don't need notes. May it please

9 the court?

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Moran:

12 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. My name is Tom Moran and I represent a man

15 name Hazim Delic, he's the last man over there, you

16 don't know Hazim, do you?

17 A. No.

18 Q. We heard the term public security station,

19 used not just by you, but by a lot of witnesses and the

20 I just wanted to make it clear that what the public

21 security station is, is the police station. It's where

22 the police who would investigate, what I will refer to

23 as normal crimes, everything from drunk driving to

24 burglary to theft, that's who works out of the public

25 security station, is that correct?

Page 12218

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly answer.

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, that for the most part.

3 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, I can hear the

4 translation behind me still going on.

5 Q. And one last question, sir, and then I think

6 I'll be done with you. You, of course -- actually two

7 last questions. You, of course, negotiated with the

8 Serbs in your municipality and they voluntarily

9 surrendered their weapons. Now, what I want to ask you

10 is, did you have a contingency plan to arrest them if

11 they did not voluntarily surrender their weapons?

12 A. We did not have any contingency plans, we

13 simply went to these discussions in the hope of getting

14 a positive resolution.

15 Q. And, by the way, the laws involving illegal

16 possession of weapons, they were enforced no matter

17 what the ethnic background of the person with the

18 weapon, isn't that correct, sir?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. MORAN: Thank you, very much. Your

21 Honour, I pass the witness.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. Now let me

23 ask a question.

24 Cross-examined by Judge Karibi-Whyte:

25 Q. What would you have done if negotiations

Page 12219

1 broke down to surrender the weapons if you did not

2 agree to do so?

3 A. We probably would have undertaken some other

4 steps.

5 Q. What type of steps would you have?

6 A. In a police tactics, there are also searches

7 as a method, searches of houses, properties, backyards,

8 things like that. And if during the searches some

9 weapons were to be found, the owners of weapons found

10 there would be duly prosecuted.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

12 Any further questions?

13 MS. McMURREY: The defence of Esad Landzo has

14 no questions of this witness, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you, any

16 examination? The Prosecution.

17 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honours.

18 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry:

19 Q. Sir, my name is Theresa McHenry and I am a

20 member of the Prosecution team. I think as trial

21 counsel has said, if you don't understand a question,

22 please just ask me to rephrase it. And a number of

23 questions that I am going to ask, I believe, will only

24 require a yes or no answer.

25 A. Very well.

Page 12220

1 Q. Sir, I believe that I understood you, that

2 MUP units could be subordinated to military units on

3 those occasions when MUP so authorised, is that

4 correct? Did I understand you correctly?

5 A. Yes, for any subordination of units that

6 belong to public security stations, the approval of the

7 ministry of the interior was required.

8 Q. And, sir, did the ministry of interior, in

9 Sarajevo, have to authorise that or could you as head

10 of the MUP in Jablanica, could you do it yourself?

11 A. Without the approval of the ministry of the

12 interior, this could not be done.

13 Q. Yes, sir. I understand that. My question

14 is: You were the head of the ministry of interior in

15 Jablanica and then your superiors were in Sarajevo. My

16 question is: Could you authorise certain MUP units

17 under your control to be subordinated to military or

18 did the authorisation have to come from MUP in

19 Sarajevo?

20 A. The ministry of the interior in Sarajevo, as

21 we said a moment ago, is a part of the defence forces

22 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. When units are

23 transferred, then it is the ministry that had to give

24 approval for these units to be sent to join other

25 formations.

Page 12221

1 Q. The ministry in Sarajevo?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In those cases where MUP units were

4 subordinated to military units, those units would then

5 be under the ultimate authority of the main staff of

6 the armed forces for Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that

7 correct?

8 JUDGE JAN: This is what he said in his

9 examination-in-chief.

10 MS. McHENRY: That's correct, Your Honour.

11 I'm going to ask a follow-up question. I want to make

12 sure I understood the foundation. If he just says

13 "yes," then I will move on to my follow-up questions.

14 Q. Is that correct, sir?

15 A. Could you please repeat the question more

16 clearly?

17 Q. If I understood you correctly, in those cases

18 where MUP units would be subordinated to military

19 units, the MUP units, the subordinated ones, would then

20 fall under the authority of the main staff of the armed

21 forces for Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. You're asking me questions about the military

23 organisation. Those units are subordinated to the

24 commander of the unit they are joining. And further on

25 from there regarding the chain of command, that is

Page 12222

1 regulated by military rules and regulations.

2 Q. Fair enough. Do I understand you that you're

3 not familiar with the military rules and regulations

4 that would regulate the chain of command above; is that

5 correct?

6 A. No, I am not familiar and I don't have to be.

7 Q. Fair enough, sir, thank you. Am I correct

8 that those units that had not been subordinated to

9 military units, those units would not be under the

10 authority of the main staff of the armed forces?

11 JUDGE JAN: This is, again, what he said in

12 his examination-in-chief.

13 MS. McHENRY: If so, then all he has to do is

14 confirm it and I can go on to my next question.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You mean you are

16 repeating what was said in his evidence in chief as

17 part of your examination?

18 MS. McHENRY: No, Your Honour, I believe that

19 this logically follows from what he stated. I don't

20 believe he stated it explicitly, and so that there can

21 be no question that somehow I've made a jump that, to

22 me, seems logical, I thought it would be most fair and

23 most efficient just to clarify that and I will then go

24 on to my next question. Obviously, if he has stated it

25 already, he can so state and then I'll move on to my

Page 12223

1 next question.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If he stated it already,

3 he should state it again for you to be satisfied?

4 MS. McHENRY: He hasn't stated it in those

5 words. I believe --

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In your own words, I

7 suppose.

8 MS. McHENRY: Well, I don't think he has

9 specifically addressed this position.

10 JUDGE JAN: Ask the next question, please.

11 MS. McHENRY: Okay.

12 Q. MUP units that had not been subordinated to a

13 military unit, were those units considered a component

14 part of the armed forces or not?

15 A. The units that were not transferred to others

16 remained within the jurisdiction of the ministry and

17 their commander is the commander of that unit. In my

18 particular case, I was in command of the units that

19 remained in my public security station, and I'm

20 accountable to the minister of the interior of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22 Q. What I'm just trying to clarify, sir, just to

23 see if you can help me understand it because I don't, I

24 thought you stated that the minister of interior, that

25 that ministry was a component part of the armed forces;

Page 12224

1 did I understand you correctly?

2 A. You're asking me something that is stated in

3 our regulations. I'm just telling you about the

4 segment related to the ministry of the interior. From

5 there on, these things are regulated by the regulations

6 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 Q. Well, if I understood you correctly, sir, the

8 ministry of interior is a component part of the armed

9 forces of Bosnia according to the regulations; is that

10 correct? Did I understand you correctly?

11 A. I have already said that.

12 Q. And was the answer "yes"?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Does that, to your understanding, mean that

15 all MUP units, including you, were considered a

16 component part of the armed forces of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina also? If you don't know, you can

18 say you don't know, sir.

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Sir, am I correct that in May of 1992 there

21 was a crisis staff in Jablanica or crisis headquarters?

22 A. A crisis staff is a leftover from the former

23 system and possibly it existed until regulations were

24 passed on the new organisation. Those regulations were

25 passed, if I remember correctly, around the 20th of

Page 12225

1 May.

2 Q. Sir, have you ever seen any editions of the

3 official gazette of the Jablanica municipality crisis

4 staff?

5 JUDGE JAN: Any editions?

6 MS. McHENRY: Any editions, publications

7 of --

8 JUDGE JAN: Have you seen the official

9 gazette of the municipality of Jablanica? This is the

10 question because in the script it said "any additions,"

11 and I was wondering what is addition.

12 THE WITNESS: I don't know what exactly you

13 are referring to.

14 MS. McHENRY: Can I ask that the witness just

15 be shown Prosecution Exhibit 246.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What do you intend to

17 ask about this gazette?

18 MS. McHENRY: Well, among other things, I

19 intend to ask just a very few questions about the

20 municipality crisis staff and orders that may have come

21 out of it regarding the MUP.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I find it difficult to

23 see the relevance of it. I find it fairly difficult.

24 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, it will just

25 take a couple of minutes but --

Page 12226

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It doesn't matter even

2 if it doesn't take any time if it's irrelevant.

3 MS. McHENRY: I agree with you, Your Honour.

4 The reason, as I understand it, that Ms. Residovic

5 showed the witness a document about this witness's

6 appointment and had it admitted into evidence is

7 because she stated it showed that the regulations were

8 all being carried out in full in Jablanica. I

9 certainly believe -- and I believe that there was some

10 testimony about this from the Defence expert witness.

11 So certainly I believe I am entitled to ask a few

12 questions about that.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What are you challenging

14 in the regularity of his appointment?

15 MS. McHENRY: I'm not challenging anything

16 about the regularity of his appointment. What I am

17 challenging is the proposition that in Jablanica

18 everything worked strictly according to the

19 regulations, as opposed to because of the difficult

20 circumstances there were some things that were dealt

21 with in other ways. This witness, as a member of that

22 group, can --

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why don't you ask about

24 those questions?

25 MS. McHENRY: Let me ask that, sir.

Page 12227

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I object. I

2 did not show this witness any document about his

3 appointment.

4 MS. McHENRY: Let me just ask the question

5 directly.

6 Q. Sir, were you a member of the Jablanica

7 crisis staff?

8 A. No, I was not a member of the crisis staff.

9 Q. Having seen the document, in your role as

10 head of the police, did you ever see the official

11 gazettes of the Jablanica crisis staff?

12 A. I have.

13 Q. Is what you have before you a copy of, at

14 least, portions of the gazette of the Jablanica crisis

15 staff?

16 A. Probably, yes.

17 Q. Was there a time, sir, when sometime in 1992

18 the crisis staff took any actions regarding the

19 dismissal or request for dismissal of the head of the

20 MUP, to your knowledge?

21 JUDGE JAN: You mean in regards to him? He

22 was the head of the MUP there.

23 MS. McHENRY: Yes. I don't believe he was

24 head of it for all of 1992, so I wanted my question to

25 be slightly broader.

Page 12228

1 Q. Sir, are you aware whether or not any time in

2 1992 the crisis staff took any action dismissing or

3 seeking the dismissal of the head of the MUP?

4 A. I never attended meetings of the crisis staff

5 so I don't know.

6 Q. Thank you. Sir, you stated that you were

7 aware in 1992 of reports in the Serb media about events

8 in Jablanica?

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you finished with

10 the gazettes and the crisis staff?

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,

12 please.

13 MS. McHENRY: Yes, I am finished with the

14 gazettes. I have no further questions and I'm moving

15 to another area.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can proceed.

17 Repeat the question.


19 Q. Sir, you stated that in 1992 you were aware

20 of reports in the Serb media about events alleged to

21 have taken place in Jablanica; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How did you become aware of those reports?

24 A. It could be heard on the radio and on

25 television.

Page 12229

1 Q. Did you also at the time hear any reports

2 about the Celebici camp?

3 A. Not at the time. I heard nothing about the

4 Celebici camp.

5 Q. Sir, to your knowledge, during the time that

6 Mr. Delalic was commander of Tactical Group 1, were any

7 MUP units ever subordinated to Mr. Delalic?

8 A. From Jablanica, no.

9 Q. Sir, you indicated in direct that you

10 supplied to the expert witness certain public security

11 documents --

12 JUDGE JAN: Receipts.


14 Q. -- receipts. Did you also supply to the

15 expert witness or to anyone in the Defence any orders

16 from Sarajevo dealing with the subordination of MUP

17 units to any Tactical Groups?

18 A. The documents I handed over are receipts

19 which I personally signed for the weapons taken over.

20 Q. Let me just ask: Are you aware if documents

21 exist from Sarajevo authorising the subordination of

22 any MUP units to any Tactical Group?

23 A. Could you please clarify your question a

24 little? What documents are you referring to?

25 Q. I'm asking, sir, have you ever seen any

Page 12230

1 documents from the ministry of interior in Sarajevo

2 authorising the subordination of any MUP units in

3 Jablanica to any Tactical Group?

4 A. No, I haven't seen any such documents.

5 Q. Thank you. Sir, do you know anything about

6 who was responsible for Celebici camp?

7 A. Your Honours, will you please help me to get

8 to the truth? You are asking me something that I have

9 already answered saying I didn't know because I was

10 never there. And about the events and the status of

11 those facilities, I learned much later.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This witness doesn't

13 know.

14 MS. McHENRY: That's fine.

15 Q. Sir, am I correct that you don't know

16 anything about what happened --

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has said he doesn't

18 know.

19 MS. McHENRY: This is a different question.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Still following on about

21 Celebici?

22 MS. McHENRY: I'm just clarifying that he

23 knows nothing whatsoever about the Celebici camp.

24 JUDGE JAN: This is what he says.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is what he has just

Page 12231

1 said.

2 MS. McHENRY: If it's clear that he knows

3 nothing about Celebici whatsoever, I will go on.

4 Q. Sir, am I correct that at some point recently

5 you were informed that the Prosecution had requested

6 the opportunity to speak with you before you testified?

7 A. I don't know what you're talking about.

8 Q. Did anyone ever inform you that the

9 Prosecution had asked if they might speak with you

10 before you gave your testimony?

11 A. No.

12 MS. McHENRY: No further questions. Thank

13 you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination of

15 this witness?

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: No re-examination, Your

17 Honours. Thank you.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I

19 think this is all the Trial Chamber wants of you. You

20 are discharged.

21 (The witness withdrew)

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have your next

23 witness?

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, obviously we

25 didn't plan our time very well and we asked that the

Page 12232

1 next witness be brought here at 2.00 to be ready to

2 testify. I beg your indulgence because we didn't

3 expect the cross-examination to be over so soon. He

4 will be at our disposal at half past two.

5 JUDGE JAN: The credit goes to Ms. McHenry.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay. I think we need

7 not waste our time now. We shall rise and reassemble

8 at 2.30.

9 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.52 p.m.

















Page 12233

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, kindly

3 advise your next witness.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: I call witness Hamza

5 Ajanovic.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is he going to

7 depose about?

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, you can see

9 that I am trying to reduce the number of questions to

10 only the most relevant facts in order to speed things

11 up. This witness has certain knowledge of facts which

12 have already been presented and in the strictest sense

13 of the word, it may be doubtful whether he should

14 testify at all. It is your decision, really, if we

15 should have this witness' testimony presented today.

16 Tomorrow I have another witness that I intend to call.

17 This witness will talk to the role of coordinator and

18 the Operation Oganj. As well as his knowledge of

19 certain commanders in the Konjic area and whether they

20 were involved in the Tactical Group 1 or not. I know

21 that some of this information may be redundant.

22 JUDGE JAN: You're not sure, why examine

23 him? It's just duplication.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours, I will not

25 insist, but I have to tell you that I do not have

Page 12234

1 another witness for today. I will have the next

2 witness coming in tomorrow. Because these are the

3 witnesses which have been called before our status

4 conference, that is, they were called last week and

5 this is why I have invited this witness into the

6 courtroom today. I know that he can corroborate the

7 facts that may have been established by now.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, you can see

9 the wisdom of coordination about witnesses which you

10 should call. Is it not necessarily because we want to

11 be faster here, it's the expense of bringing him

12 itself. It's unreasonable if his evidence will not

13 improve what we are doing here. We really do not need

14 this witness because whatever he would say, from a

15 short summary of what you indicated, has been said.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: I agree, Your Honours. This

17 witness would only confirm the already established

18 facts. However, since this witness has been called

19 much earlier, so he just happened to be here and I

20 agree with you this witness need not be called today,

21 but I do not have another witness for you right now.

22 Maybe I can make a call through and have -- try to

23 arrange that the next witness be called maybe after

24 4.00 today.

25 JUDGE JAN: Why unnecessarily burden the

Page 12235

1 record? Just because he's here is no reason that he

2 must be examined. Maybe 4.00 then we meet.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's a long time.

4 Three thirty?

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: 4.00, Your Honours, because

6 we need to contact the witness. He needs to prepare.

7 I have talked to the victim and witnesses unit in the

8 morning. I think that they would need time to make

9 arrangements so that the witness would be ready to be

10 here at 4.00.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we can afford to

12 wait instead of repeating what has been done, which is

13 of no value at all to put yourself on the Trial

14 Chamber. And I suppose you would like to rest your

15 voice, too. Yes, we'll have to adjourn until 4.00.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. My

17 apologies to you, Mr. Ajanovic, for this.

18 JUDGE JAN: Are you interested in this

19 witness?

20 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, since we don't

21 know what he's going to say, we don't know.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You mean you couldn't

23 indicate what he's going to say from the short

24 summary?

25 MS. McHENRY: I'm sorry, Your Honours, we

Page 12236

1 don't get the short summary, that's something that only

2 the Trial Chamber gets.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. Thank you

4 very much for wasting your time. I wish I could have

5 saved you that trouble. We'll rise and come back at

6 4.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 2.50 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber has

10 been informed that you have not succeeded in tracing

11 your witness.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours. Together

13 with representatives of the victims and witnesses unit,

14 we went to the hotel immediately but the witness was

15 not planned for today. And with a unit assistant, they

16 went somewhere and we waited for them until ten to

17 four. As they did not appear by then, we really don't

18 know which part of town they are in, so I was unable to

19 call the witness to appear in court this afternoon. I

20 apologise. I thought that the witness was in the

21 hotel.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: One would have thought

23 that these witnesses are personally under a certain

24 amount of protection who think or know that they are

25 always at hand to be contacted by you, so that if need

Page 12237

1 be they might be the next ones to be called for

2 evidence. I thought that was the position.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I do not know

4 what is the procedure and the rules of the victims and

5 witnesses unit. They probably have some kind of

6 procedure. When a witness is free, they probably take

7 him somewhere to show him something, but the victims

8 and witnesses unit tried their best to trace them, but

9 I'm afraid I have no control over the procedure of that

10 unit and I had assumed that they were at the hotel.

11 Otherwise, I wouldn't have suggested that I go and

12 fetch him immediately.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you any other

14 witness for today?

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: That is the last witness we

16 have for this week.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: For this whole week?


19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This a surprise to me

20 because you have a long list of witnesses. Already

21 within two days your witnesses for the week have been

22 disposed of? Because we started only yesterday.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: According to the way the

24 examination progressed, we thought that five witnesses

25 was sufficient for one week. But following your

Page 12238

1 instructions, I reduced the scope of the examination

2 and I think that the Prosecution did the same so that

3 the testimony evolved far more efficiently. I had

4 expected today's witness to be finished by the end of

5 the day so that the next witness could come tomorrow.

6 Also, according to the victims and witness

7 unit, they bring in witnesses only at the end of the

8 week for the following week, so this is probably in

9 order to keep the costs of the Tribunal down. So that

10 as we were not quite prepared and didn't know how this

11 procedure would affect our planning, that is what

12 happened. Because if you recall in the first week, we

13 went through three witnesses only and there were

14 witnesses waiting for a fortnight.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There is one witness so

16 you could not have finished your witnesses for the

17 week. It means there's still an outstanding witness

18 who we haven't called.


20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So you still have a

21 witness tomorrow, providing his evidence is relevant.


23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which is some indication

24 of what we have been hearing. Because you have a list

25 for next week which appears to follow your usual

Page 12239

1 pattern of saying the same things for any of them. In

2 any event, you still have a witness we haven't seen.


4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So you could not have

5 exhausted your witnesses for the week.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: No. We will hear that

7 witness tomorrow. His name is Sadik Dzuhmur. We had

8 planned him according to our schedule.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't know. He was

10 one of those who perhaps falls in line with your normal

11 way of tendering evidence. Still, you put him down as

12 giving evidence about defence structures and on command

13 responsibilities. This is what you have him down for.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours. I

15 explained this morning when witness Emin Zebic was

16 here, I said that we would be calling a representative

17 of MUP Konjic and a representative of MUP Jablanica

18 because they have to do with defence structures. This

19 witness was a member of MUP Konjic and deputy commander

20 of the public security station at Konjic and we believe

21 that he is a relevant witness.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are we now sure that we

23 can have him tomorrow because we have been told that

24 you expected him this afternoon and we couldn't have

25 him. So how will we be sure he will be here tomorrow?

Page 12240

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, we are absolutely sure,

2 Your Honour, because the witness was not told about

3 this afternoon as we hadn't known what would happen

4 with Witness Ajanovic, and that is why he didn't expect

5 us to call him. In the morning, he will certainly

6 appear in this Trial Chamber.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's a frustrating

8 experience to wait for witnesses when, in fact, we

9 should be quite busy. I don't know. Now, it is

10 important for us to know exactly the witnesses we will

11 be having next week so that -- as I said, I have it but

12 I say I'm not too sure whether they will all be here.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, among those

14 witnesses is General Polutak who was the first

15 commander of Tactical Group 1. Then there is brigadier

16 Dzambasevic who was the first member of the TO staff of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina who came to Konjic, and at the same

18 time, he was in charge of the Operation JUG.

19 Then there's Dzelilovic Mustafa, the only

20 person coming from the municipality of Hadzici and who

21 could testify in a similar way as other witnesses about

22 the possible responsibility of Mr. Delalic for all

23 formations of the armed forces.

24 Then there is Salih Hruvic, TO commander for

25 Prozor. Then we have another commander later on the

Page 12241

1 list, but if this one provides all the relevant

2 information for the court, we will not be calling this

3 second representative from Prozor because he is to

4 testify about the same circumstances, that is, all the

5 formations of the armed forces within the territory of

6 Prozor municipality.

7 Then there is Saban Duracic who may testify

8 about certain activities and responsibilities of the

9 joint command, the Operation Oganj, the visit of

10 journalists to the combat areas. He may refer to some

11 other evidence that has been admitted by the Trial

12 Chamber in the course of the Prosecution case. So that

13 I think these are important and relevant witnesses from

14 the standpoint of the Defence, and I think that you

15 will, for the first time, have the opportunity to hear

16 persons who were directly involved in the command of

17 Tactical Groups.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: All these are

19 testimonies in support of command authority and

20 exercise of command authority?

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. They are all linked to

22 command authority.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In addition to what has

24 been said before now?

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, but now these are

Page 12242

1 persons whom may explain the link between the command

2 responsibility of the commander of Tactical Group 1 and

3 the commands at other levels, and especially the

4 command of prisons, because we will have the commander

5 who was the commander prior to Mr. Delalic of Tactical

6 Group 1; then another commander responsible for the

7 battles around Sarajevo and who is familiar with the

8 responsibilities of commanders and any possible link

9 between their responsibility and control over prisons.

10 So we are not talking any longer about the

11 responsibility of coordinators but, rather, the

12 responsibility of commanders on the basis of their own

13 knowledge and experience.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose then we will

15 meet tomorrow morning at ten a.m. and we will continue

16 our proceedings.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

19 now rise.

20 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 4.21 p.m.

21 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day

22 of May, 1998 at 10.00 a.m.