Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12359

1 --- Upon commencing at 10.05 a.m.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

3 gentlemen. May we have the appearances please.

4 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honours, I

5 am Theresa McHenry for the Prosecution along with Mr.

6 Turone and Mr. Huber.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the

8 appearances for the Defence, please.

9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Good morning, Your Honours,

10 my name is Eugene O'Sullivan. I appear on behalf of

11 Mr. Delalic. My colleague and lead counsel, Ms.

12 Residovic, will not be here this morning. She will be

13 back at 2.30 when we call our next witness.

14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours,

15 I am Tomislav Kuzmanovic along with a legal assistant,

16 Nico Duric, here on behalf of defendant, Mr. Mucic. I

17 would like to advise the court that tomorrow Mr. Duric

18 will be present, I will not be present and he will be

19 here on our behalf, on Mr. Mucic's behalf. Thank you.

20 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I

21 am Salih Karabdic attorney from Sarajevo, defence

22 counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic. My colleague, Mr. Tom

23 Moran, will not be present for the next two weeks due

24 to family business.

25 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours, I

Page 12360

1 am Cynthia McMurray for Esad Landzo and my colleague,

2 Ms. Nancy Boler, will appear at 2.30 this afternoon.

3 MR. GREAVES: I haven't been announced, I am

4 Michael Greaves and I am here to assist Mr. Karabdic in

5 one matter today.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We'll start this morning

7 with Delic's motion for a binding order. Has the

8 Prosecution anything to say about it? We have not seen

9 your own response to it.

10 MS. McHENRY: That's right Your Honour. It

11 was only recently filed. Our response will be very

12 short and I am happy to give it orally. I will note

13 for the record that there's no indication that the

14 Defence has attempted to get these documents without a

15 binding order or that the FRY has been provided

16 notification of their request, such that their position

17 may be ascertained. With respect to the position of

18 the office of the Prosecutor, regarding the request, we

19 defer to the court.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the motion

21 now. Let's hear the motion.

22 MR. GREAVES: It's in respect to this matter

23 that I have been asked to assist Mr. Moran and Mr.

24 Karabdic today. Your Honour, of course having sat on

25 the appeal concerning the issuing of subpoenas and

Page 12361

1 binding orders to state officials and individuals

2 acting in their own private capacity, we'll be well

3 familiar with the decision that was issued in October

4 of last year and so I needn't go in at any great

5 length, to that decision. Suffice it to say that the

6 conclusions that the Tribunal, the Appeal Chamber came

7 to on that occasion were these: The Tribunal is

8 empowered to issue binding orders and/or requests to

9 states and those states are obliged to comply with

10 them. The tribunal may not address binding orders to

11 state officials acting in their official capacity. As

12 far as individuals are concerned, there are extensive

13 powers to summon subpoena and address other requests or

14 binding orders to that.

15 Set out in the motion are a series of

16 categories of documents, each of which, in my

17 respectful submission to Your Honour, is not only

18 relevant but highly relevant to the proceedings before

19 this tribunal. Can I take first of all at page 1 of

20 Mr. Moran's document, Item A-1. Your Honour will

21 recall there has been some evidence about the time at

22 which pressure was placed upon the Yugoslav

23 government. As a result of which it appears that

24 orders were issued to extract from the territory of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the then called JNA. Your Honour,

Page 12362

1 paragraph A-1, in our respectful submission, adequately

2 identifies a category, probably quite a small category,

3 a category of documents, the nature of which is highly

4 relevant in our respectful submission to the issue of

5 international armed conflict, which is one of the

6 matters squarely before this Tribunal.

7 Secondly, paragraph A-2. Again, that is an

8 issue which goes squarely to two matters before the

9 Tribunal. Firstly, the issue of international armed

10 conflict; and secondly, the issue of nationality.

11 Again, in my respectful submission, it is sufficiently

12 identified, that the category of documents which are

13 sought and again, in my submission, easily identifiable

14 by the government to whom that would be directed.

15 Thirdly, at paragraph A-3, which is at the top of page

16 2, Your Honour. Again, all reports in possession of

17 the government to the federal republic of Yugoslavia,

18 received from the JNA or other entity, indicating the

19 extent of compliance with the orders that were given

20 under paragraph 1 and 2 above. Again, in my

21 submission, sufficiently identifiable. Again, probably

22 quite a small category of documents which ought to be

23 easily retrievable from the appropriate place.

24 Paragraph 4, again, an issue that goes to the

25 very heart of the question of international armed

Page 12363

1 conflict. The matter which was extensively discussed

2 in the matter in judgement in the Tadic case. The

3 possession of those documents would enlighten,

4 greatly, this Tribunal in our respectful submission.

5 Again, a category, a class of documents sufficiently

6 identified in our respectful submission to enable swift

7 retrieval by the federal republic of Yugoslavia.

8 I turn now to paragraph B, which is at the

9 bottom of there. Your Honour, there is a report and I

10 have in my possession that report, so that if further

11 identification is required of such documents, it can be

12 given. Those are items which go to an issue of

13 impeachment that only Mr. Moran has identified.

14 Paragraph B-1 to 4 set out a series of items that are

15 sought. Plainly this was a report prepared by the

16 federal republic of Yugoslavia. One anticipates that

17 it is easily identifiable, provided the files

18 comprising that report have been maintained. Each of

19 those documents ought to be readily identifiable.

20 Paragraph 4 seeks, actively, the assistance of the

21 federal republic to identify the identity and location

22 of those witnesses.

23 Your Honour, paragraph B-5. It's quite some

24 time ago now, but I am sure Your Honours remember, the

25 lady who is identified there. She plainly appeared on

Page 12364

1 television in Belgrade some two months before or the

2 the month before she gave evidence last year. A copy

3 of that is in the possession of the defence. However,

4 in order to properly to prove it, it is sought in the

5 terms that are set out in paragraph B-5. A means of

6 proving it properly is sought. It may, however, be, of

7 course, that my learned friend for the Prosecution

8 might agree to admit that such an event took place and

9 that would circumvent the need for such an order in

10 that case.

11 Your Honour, those are the documents. In my

12 submission, they are sufficiently identifiable and that

13 of course was one of the matters that Your Honour and

14 your brother judges in doing the appeal in the Blaskic

15 subpoena decision were obviously anxious about, the

16 question of sufficient identification of documents. In

17 my respectful submission, the documents are relevant,

18 have probative value or would have probative value and

19 are documents that would be of great assistance to this

20 Tribunal to see. In my respectful submission, Your

21 Honour has the power, the documents are identified and

22 it would be proper to grant the orders that are sought

23 by my friend Mr. Moran and Mr. Karabdic.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Some of my problems are

25 whether you have made any efforts to obtain these

Page 12365

1 documents and from your motion I think all of them are

2 public documents and they do not belong to any

3 classified category as far as your memorandum here

4 issues. You have not indicated what efforts you have

5 made to take them and have them refused. I don't see

6 why you should start with a binding order when no

7 effort has been made.

8 MR. GREAVES: As I understand it, no

9 significant effort has been made to recover these

10 documents from the government.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: They're public

12 documents, especially the reports of the committee,

13 will be a public document.

14 MR. GREAVES: The report, of course, is a

15 public document. But the documents, upon which the

16 report was based, are not. It's the documents upon

17 which the report is based that are sought.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The documents related to

19 the withdrawal of the JNA, you have not indicated

20 within any category which you cannot obtain

21 ordinarily.

22 MR. GREAVES: Just using one's common sense,

23 I suspect they're a class of documents that there will

24 be some reluctance to provide.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, let's not go on

Page 12366

1 that assumption until there is a refusal.

2 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours, give me a moment,

3 please. Your Honour, one problem my friend Mr.

4 Karabdic is faced is of course there exists as between

5 his country and the FRY, at present, no diplomatic

6 relations, so that presents some difficulties to him in

7 making the request on an official basis to the

8 government of the FRY. I'm sorry, I interrupted Your

9 Honour and I do apologise and I did follow up on what

10 Your Honour is saying.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is not a question

12 between two governments. It's between counsel and the

13 authority in possession of these documents. It is

14 counsel who should make the approach and then show to

15 the Trial Chamber that he has been refused, when, in

16 fact, they show the documents are there. Now one of

17 these documents are related to impeachment and you

18 indicate certain witnesses under light. It's fairly

19 difficult to know how that is related to anything.

20 MR. GREAVES: That is one matter -- I haven't

21 had an opportunity to speak to Mr. Moran as to the

22 precise nature of that matter.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't you think you're

24 really not properly equipped to move the motion?

25 MR. GREAVES: Yes, that may be right, but,

Page 12367

1 Your Honour, what I suggest is this: That the best way

2 to deal with this matter is perhaps to adjourn it

3 without coming to a conclusion upon it, so that at

4 least one further step can be done before drawing it

5 back to Your Honour's attention.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think so, until we

7 have a firm refusal.

8 MR. GREAVES: I think that would be kind if

9 Your Honour would do that and that would assist us.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, of course. So the

11 motion is adjourned. We wouldn't strike it out, but

12 ordinarily one would have struck it out, but we'll

13 adjourn it.

14 We now turn to the application in respect of

15 protective measures for DB.1. Have you any

16 observations?

17 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, we defer to

18 the court in that matter.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Also like the earlier

20 motion?

21 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour. I apologise

22 for not having had the opportunity to read it

23 yesterday, given our short response. It would have

24 been more efficient had I been able to tell you

25 yesterday, but we defer to the court entirely.

Page 12368

1 JUDGE JAN: What precisely are the protective

2 measures you are seeking? In regard to the witnesses

3 of the Prosecution, their names will appear and that

4 sort --

5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That's correct.

6 JUDGE JAN: -- and you also want their face

7 to be sort of covered or something like that?

8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That's correct. You'll

9 note, Your Honours, the ten items, the standard items

10 from the protection of that nature, the minimum

11 protection of identity and disclosure to the public or

12 to the media.

13 JUDGE JAN: That's all?

14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That's all.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, well, there should

16 be no objection to that, I think.

17 JUDGE JAN: No objection to that?

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The application is

19 granted.

20 JUDGE JAN: To the extent that the face not

21 be shown and his identity not be indicated.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, we have another

23 motion from Hazim Delic about the designation of an

24 expert witness. Mr. Greaves, are you aware of that

25 too, the designation of expert witness?

Page 12369

1 MR. GREAVES: (Microphone not on).

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

3 MR. GREAVES: It doesn't work as well as the

4 one down the other end.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is Mr. Karabdic prepared

6 to take this?

7 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, there has been a

8 misunderstanding; however, let me take on this motion.

9 Hazim Delic requests that an expert be

10 assigned and the name of this expert witness is Carl

11 U. Kent. Mr. Kent is an experienced investigator who

12 has been involved in over 2,000 investigations, and he

13 has appeared in over 600 court cases as an expert

14 witness. On the basis of the transcript of these

15 proceedings, he is going to testify on whether the

16 injuries to which the Prosecution witnesses testified

17 were possible and whether the consequences which the

18 witnesses have mentioned were possible and

19 were durable.

20 This expert witness is going to say whether

21 the kinds of blows and the number of blows that the

22 witnesses alleged to have sustained, for instance, with

23 the baseball bat and similar instruments would be

24 possible. He is also going to investigate other types

25 of injuries to which witnesses had testified, and I

Page 12370

1 think that he is going to be able to shed light on the

2 veracity of the witnesses testimonies.

3 We do not have independent corroboration for

4 these testimonies. We do not have medical reports

5 which would have been issued immediately following

6 these alleged injuries. We only are relying on witness

7 statements and their testimonies but we do need an

8 expert witness which is what we are requesting and we

9 ask that our motion be granted.

10 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, if I might

11 assist Mr. Karabdic for a moment, I do have personal

12 experience with the expert that they have requested.

13 He was my investigator on one murder case in 1992 and

14 he was the Prosecution's investigator on a capital

15 murder case that I represented in 1996. I can speak

16 that he has vast experience and he is an excellent

17 investigator and probably has as much forensic

18 experience, as far as testifying about injuries, as any

19 person I know, if that may assist the court.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. Ms.

21 McHenry?

22 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honours, if the

23 Defence were trying to hire this person as an

24 investigator, the Prosecution would not object. But if

25 they are trying to call him as an expert about

Page 12371

1 injuries, we certainly would object for reasons

2 including that he is an investigator, not a medical

3 expert; even looking at the material supplied, there's

4 no indication that he can assist Your Honours in

5 questions of expertise dealing with injuries. Even

6 assuming a medical expert would be able to do that

7 based on reports, it would have to be a medical expert,

8 not a police investigator. We would be objecting to

9 the calling of this person.

10 JUDGE JAN: He's not a doctor.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, he's not. He's a

12 sergeant.

13 JUDGE JAN: Only a forensic one, forensic

14 medicine --

15 MS. McMURREY: I don't have his CV in front

16 of me because I don't have that document. But if I

17 recall --

18 JUDGE JAN: Surely you've relied on his

19 evidence --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

21 MS. McMURREY: I have and I've had hundreds

22 of cases since then. I do believe that when he left

23 the Prosecutor's office in Harris County, he was a

24 homicide detective before that, if I remember

25 correctly, before he went into investigative work

Page 12372

1 which, I believe, would qualify him as a homicide

2 detective.

3 JUDGE JAN: We want someone who has

4 specialised in the forensic aspect of the medical

5 profession.

6 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry. I didn't hear the

7 first part of your question.

8 JUDGE JAN: A forensic person who specialised

9 in the forensic department of the medical profession.

10 MS. McMURREY: I can't testify that he does

11 represent that part of the profession. I'm not quite

12 sure. I do know that he has vast experience in murder

13 cases and injuries; and from his experience, since

14 there are no medical reports to rely upon, I think that

15 Mr. Delic is asking that he be allowed to testify from

16 his experience in injury cases.

17 JUDGE ODIO-BENITO: Has he made any

18 investigation in Bosnia-Herzegovina, specifically in

19 this case?

20 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am not

21 qualified to respond. My guess is that he has not

22 travelled to Bosnia. I don't believe he has even

23 travelled to The Hague yet.

24 JUDGE ODIO-BENITO: He would speak in theory

25 about injuries, without being a medical doctor.

Page 12373

1 MS. McMURREY: I believe he would be speaking

2 hypothetically and in theory, and I don't believe that

3 he has done anything except review the daily records

4 and transcripts of this case. I'm just assisting from

5 what I believe is my experience with this expert.

6 JUDGE ODIO-BENITO: So he hasn't examined any

7 of the alleged victims?

8 MS. McMURREY: I don't imagine he has. Only

9 Mr. Karabdic can answer those questions, I believe.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you sure he has

11 examined any of them?

12 MS. McMURREY: I was just going to offer my

13 assistance as far as I'm able to.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. Well, I

15 don't know how he can be put forward as an expert. If

16 you can give us good reasons why he should be accepted

17 as an expert, one can then consider the business for

18 which he has been called, as an expert.

19 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, enclosed with

20 our proposal is his resume and his working career. It

21 is stated here that he took part in investigations and

22 reconstructions of numerous cases of murder and

23 inflicting of serious bodily injuries. In this case,

24 in our case, I believe that he would be of significant

25 assistance to us. He hasn't studied the transcript so

Page 12374

1 far, but we would request him to do so and to provide

2 an opinion on that. This has been articulated in our

3 request, in our motion, and we do believe that he would

4 be able to help us in this case.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber has

6 defined who an expert is, and it doesn't appear he

7 comes within the scope of those persons who we have

8 accepted as experts, in any particular field as such,

9 because I don't see how he could be accepted as an

10 expert. An expert in what? That is what concerns us

11 now.

12 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry to rise at this

13 moment. Has Your Honour actually seen the curriculum

14 vitae of the --

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I have it before

16 me.

17 MR. GREAVES: Can I direct Your Honours'

18 attention to, first of all, paragraph 1. That is

19 considerably more, I think, the homicides and most --

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It says detective.

21 MR. GREAVES: Well, I was going to go on to

22 the next paragraph where he has given expert evidence

23 in more than 600 criminal trials. That, I think, is

24 extremely extensive expertise that's involved in giving

25 evidence of that kind in so many trials. He plainly,

Page 12375

1 as far as the authorities in his home state are

2 concerned, is recognised as an expert in such

3 investigations.

4 Your Honour, it's not just doctors who can

5 give evidence about the effect that hitting somebody

6 500 times with a baseball bat, in a period of five

7 hours, can give. Police officers who have been

8 involved in an investigation of this kind of

9 incident --

10 JUDGE JAN: Don't you think a doctor, an

11 anatomist would be in a better position to give us a

12 good opinion with regard to the effect of 500 blows

13 over a period of five hours?

14 MR. GREAVES: But that doesn't preclude a

15 police officer --

16 JUDGE JAN: He should have some knowledge of

17 the human body.

18 MR. GREAVES: -- from testifying about the

19 effect of such injuries and such assaults.

20 JUDGE JAN: Surely you can find forensic

21 experts who can tell us probably more qualitatively as

22 regards to the effect of such a large number of blows

23 over such a short period of time.

24 MR. GREAVES: Of course, the point is this --

25 JUDGE JAN: We're not holding investigations

Page 12376

1 here. I'm sure he's a very good investigator. I'm

2 sure he's a very good detective, but we're concerned

3 with the effect of such a large number of blows on a

4 person over such a short period.

5 MR. GREAVES: Can I just draw Your Honours'

6 attention to page 2 of the man's CV?

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. I have it before

8 me.

9 MR. GREAVES: Does Your Honours see in about

10 the middle page under his education?

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Education, yes.

12 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours will see that he

13 has had extensive training, particularly, for example,

14 in the issue of blood splattering and so on. Those are

15 the sorts of issues that are dealt with by forensic

16 medical witnesses as well. So he has, in my

17 submission, extensive education and expertise in that

18 area. That, no doubt, is why the state of Texas uses

19 him as an expert witness.

20 Your Honours, in my submission, there is also

21 this: One of the issues that comes from having lawyers

22 from all over the world is this: We all have our own

23 experts who we know and trust, and my learned friend

24 Mr. Moran knows and trusts this police officer or

25 ex-police officer. It is important, in my submission,

Page 12377

1 as part of the process of defending against charges of

2 this kind, that counsel have the opportunity to use

3 those witnesses who they believe to be experts who

4 fall, in my submission, within the category of expert

5 witness, in whom they have confidence. It may very

6 well be that Mr. Moran would have to find somebody that

7 he doesn't know if he had to find a forensic medical

8 expert.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I'm sorry to interrupt.

10 If you read it carefully, he is coming to give evidence

11 on his opinion of what others have said. This is what

12 he is coming to do, and that is the expertise he is

13 giving to us. If it is one of a more common sense

14 deduction of what has happened, otherwise, everybody

15 can do that.

16 JUDGE JAN: He comes from Houston, this

17 gentleman?

18 MR. GREAVES: It looks like he's a gentleman

19 of Houston, born and bred.

20 JUDGE JAN: I'm sure this sort of forensic

21 person -- Houston is a very big city. You can

22 certainly get one from there who specialises in

23 forensic medicine.

24 MR. GREAVES: My submission is that he does

25 fall within the category that Your Honours have

Page 12378

1 identified as being expert witnesses.

2 JUDGE JAN: One may have some lurking doubt.

3 That is the only expert in this field. When we have an

4 expert about whom -- when we have a lurking doubt that

5 he is really not an expert. The first question the

6 Prosecution would ask in cross-examination is, "Have

7 you studied medicine?"

8 MR. GREAVES: Of course, it's a matter for

9 them.

10 JUDGE JAN: And once he says "No," then some

11 sort of doubt is created in one's mind, whether he's

12 really competent to express opinion on matters which he

13 is not specialised.

14 MR. GREAVES: That goes to the issue of

15 weight. It doesn't go to the issue of whether or not

16 at the present time --

17 JUDGE JAN: Why produce a witness about whose

18 opinion there cannot be any lurking doubt?

19 MR. GREAVES: Well, there it is. The

20 application is made. In my submission, he, as we stand

21 here at the present time, falls properly within the

22 category of expert. I would respectfully invite Your

23 Honours to say that this is a man who can give proper

24 evidence to this court. If I can say so from my own

25 experience, he's far more experienced than any police

Page 12379

1 officer that I've come across in England, but then we

2 don't have quite so many murders.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, that's comparing

4 him with police officers. Who would then be accepted

5 as experts in this particular area, of whether certain

6 injury was sufficient to cause that or not? That is

7 the issue, whether the type of beating claimed would be

8 sufficient to kill the victim. Now, what he is coming

9 to tell us is that it would not be sufficient to result

10 in that. That's not somebody who is properly trained

11 and accredited for the purposes of ascertaining or

12 satisfying that that has occurred, not somebody who

13 could do that.

14 MR. GREAVES: My submission would be that

15 both men can do an equal job and do it from a different

16 perspective. The fact that there may be someone who

17 will do it better doesn't necessarily preclude my

18 learned friend calling someone in whom he has

19 confidence.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: A doctor is a better

21 person that is accepted as an expert.

22 JUDGE JAN: Think over your positions. Maybe

23 you can get a medical expert. Just think it over.

24 MR. GREAVES: Perhaps we can again return to

25 this matter as well.

Page 12380

1 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, if I just might

2 add one bit for the record, I do have to say that as a

3 criminal defence attorney, I have used him as an expert

4 in Stephen Jones case in 1992, and also he was quite

5 devastating when he testified for the Prosecution in

6 the capital murder case of Hilton Crawford in 1996.

7 JUDGE JAN: Was he testifying for the

8 Prosecution or the Defence?

9 MS. McMURREY: He was testifying for the

10 Prosecution against me. I was defending in 1996 and

11 his testimony in recreating the murder scene was quite

12 devastating, and it was trial by jury.

13 JUDGE JAN: A murder scene and a detective is

14 one thing, but tell us about the effect on a human body

15 of such a large number of blows with a baseball bat in

16 such a short period is really a medical question. I've

17 just suggested to Mr. Greaves to think it over. We're

18 not disposing of it at the moment.

19 MS. McMURREY: I do understand with the

20 indication that the court would find some doubt in this

21 expert --

22 JUDGE JAN: I don't say that we will; maybe.

23 There's a possibility.

24 MS. McMURREY: I just wanted to state that in

25 my jurisdiction, he has been an expert witness many,

Page 12381

1 many times. If that's of any assistance, then fine.

2 If not, then it's clear.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Frankly, speaking for

4 myself, I concede that any jurisdiction can accept its

5 own definition of expertise and rely on that. But here

6 since the rationale of what he is coming to say is that

7 certain conduct can result in that or not in that.

8 That area of expertise has been preserved to medically

9 trained persons who we all accept can satisfy that and

10 not those who have not been authorised to do that.

11 What he's saying is what any intelligent

12 person can say, that if given so many blows can result

13 in -- we can all guess, but our own guesses might not

14 be as informed as that of a medically trained person.

15 This is the difference.

16 MS. McMURREY: I respect the decisions and

17 the comments of the court. Thank you.

18 JUDGE JAN: We have not yet given any

19 decision. We just asked him to reconsider.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: To think about it.

21 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this is all we

23 have. Now, this is all we have for this morning. We

24 will return at 2.30.

25 --- Luncheon recess taken at 10.42 a.m.

Page 12382

1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good afternoon, ladies

3 and gentlemen. This afternoon, I think we are at

4 the mercy of Ms. Residovic.

5 MR. GREAVES: I fear for two minutes, you get

6 to be at my mercy as well. If Your Honours give me two

7 moments just to mention one matter, please. Just

8 before lunch yesterday, I wasn't present. Your Honour

9 indicated that you would communicate a decision as to

10 when one particular motion would be heard. Could I

11 gently jog Your Honour's memory so that you tell us

12 when you want to deal with that matter on concerning

13 judicial independence.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I indicated yesterday,

15 in the first place, I would say the application was

16 wrong in the order in which it was made. If you looked

17 at it, I mentioned it, I said if you looked at Rule 15,

18 the application should be made to the presiding judge.

19 It is not an application intended for argument in open

20 court unless there are differences. So it's not a

21 question for which -- the application was not made to

22 the presiding judge, was it?

23 MR. GREAVES: It's expressed as being to

24 the Trial Chamber.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. So that's not what

Page 12383

1 Rule 15 said.

2 MR. GREAVES: Could I inquire because there

3 are two possible definitions of presiding judge. I

4 assume by the words "presiding judge", that is to Your

5 Honour as presiding judge of this Trial Chamber, rather

6 than at the present, the Tribunal as a whole.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The president is not a

8 presiding judge except he has a Trial Chamber in which

9 he presides. If you make an application to the

10 presiding judge, it is not an application to the Trial

11 Chamber.

12 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honour like us to

13 re-address it solely to Your Honour so that we can

14 actually get it going?

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I would have it in any

16 event dealt with it in accordance with the rules. I

17 definitely will deal with it, irrespective of the

18 fact that it was --

19 MR. GREAVES: As a matter of formality, would

20 you like us to resubmit it to you personally as opposed

21 to the Trial Chamber?

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, that's a better

23 way.

24 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much. That's

25 all I have to say.

Page 12384

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The rules must be obeyed

2 and that is why they are made.

3 MR. GREAVES: Sorry, for taking Your Honours'

4 time. Would you think it very rude of me if I

5 withdrew, I have other things to attend to this

6 afternoon outside the Trial Chamber.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I grant you leave, yes.

8 JUDGE JAN: So now you're showing mercy to

9 us.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Ms. Residovic. We

11 will start with your first witness. Would you kindly

12 invite the witness.

13 (The witness entered court)

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let him take the oath

15 first.

16 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

17 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

18 truth.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can now take your

20 seat.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I start, Your Honour?

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.



Page 12385

1 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. Could you please state your full name to the

4 court?

5 A. My name is Emir Delalic.

6 Q. Mr. Delalic, thank you for accepting the

7 invitation of the Defence and thank you for coming here

8 despite the fact that you had to travel overnight to

9 appear before this Tribunal as a witness. Before I

10 begin with my questions, let me draw your attention to

11 a technical matter. You and I speak the same language

12 and it would be very easy for us to proceed with these

13 questions and answers, however, you must bear in mind

14 that our conversation must enter into the transcript

15 and after I ask my question, after I have finished my

16 question, would you please listen to the interpretation

17 coming from the earphones that are on your desk. When

18 you hear that the interpretation has finished, then you

19 can answer my question. Have you understood me?

20 A. Yes, I have, thank you.

21 Q. Mr. Delalic, could you tell the court when

22 and where you were born?

23 A. I was born in Prozor on the 18th of March,

24 1962. Prozor is in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Q. What is your educational background, what

Page 12386

1 schools did you go to and where did you complete your

2 education and what is your profession?

3 A. I completed elementary education in Prozor

4 and secondary school for mechanics, I completed in

5 Konjic and my profession is mechanic.

6 Q. Where did you live before the war?

7 A. Until 1990, I lived and I worked in Prozor,

8 as of 1990 I have been living in Austria, that is in

9 Vienna.

10 Q. Do you still live in Austria?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Mr. Delalic, tell me, is Zejnil Delalic

13 related to you?

14 A. Yes. That's my uncle.

15 Q. That's your father's brother, is that right?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. Where were you when the war began on the 6th

18 of April, 1992?

19 A. In Austria.

20 Q. Did you become involved in Austria in the

21 humanitarian work for the defence forces of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. Yes, like most other citizens of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Q. Mr. Delalic, do you know whether your uncle,

Page 12387

1 at one point in time, before the war, whether he went

2 to Konjic and, if he did so, why?

3 A. Yes, I know that at the beginning of April or

4 maybe end of March, he went to attend the funeral of my

5 other uncle, together with my two other uncles from

6 Austria, and he stayed there.

7 Q. These two other uncles of yours, did they

8 come back to Vienna after the funeral?

9 A. Yes, they did.

10 Q. Do you know whether your Uncle Zejnil Delalic

11 stayed in Konjic in order to help the defence in a

12 way?

13 A. Well, most probably that was the reason why

14 he stayed, yes.

15 Q. Since you were in Vienna and you told us that

16 two of your other uncles had come back to Vienna, could

17 you tell us whether they also participated in the

18 defence of the country?

19 A. Yes -- well, we all try to find ways to help

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. We attempted to collect some money

21 or something else that might be useful for the

22 defence.

23 Q. Could you tell us the names of these two

24 uncles of yours, Zejnil's brothers who were in Vienna

25 at that time?

Page 12388

1 A. Sefik and Dzemal.

2 Q. Do you know whether Dzemal also took part,

3 participated in the defence forces and, if he did,

4 could you tell us in what way?

5 A. I know that he used to go to

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina from time to time. He would usually

7 spend 20 days in Bosnia-Herzegovina and then he would

8 come back to Vienna and stay 20 days in Vienna and this

9 went on for a couple of months.

10 Q. What about Sefik, the other brother, did he

11 participate in the defence as well?

12 A. Yes, he did. At the beginning of June, he

13 went there and he stayed there until the end of July,

14 approximately. According to what he told me, he was

15 very active in the establishment of the military police

16 of the then territorial defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 Q. Did Zejnil Delalic have a brother in Zagreb

18 and, if he did, what is his name?

19 A. Yes, he did have a brother in Zagreb, his

20 name was Vejsil Delalic.

21 Q. Did he also participate in collecting the

22 humanitarian aid, logistical aid for the defence

23 forces?

24 A. Yes, he did. During that period, the roads

25 to Bosnia and Herzegovina were blocked by Serbs and he

Page 12389

1 used his channels, his links to transfer certain

2 amounts of money or some other types of assistance,

3 like food or clothes and this is why we used him to

4 send the humanitarian aid there.

5 Q. Mr. Delalic, at one point in time during

6 1992, did you, yourself, go to Bosnia-Herzegovina and

7 did you also take part in the defence?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Before you tell me when and how, I would like

10 to ask you whether your closest family was living in

11 Konjic at that time and I am referring to your father,

12 your brothers and whether they were also members of the

13 defence forces at that time?

14 A. My father and my brother were in Konjic at

15 the time and they were members of the Territorial

16 Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 Q. When did you come to Bosnia and Herzegovina

18 and where -- in which area did you stay while you were

19 taking part in the defence?

20 A. After my Uncle Sefik returned, I went to

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina at the end of July, beginning of

22 August, and I went to Konjic and Prozor.

23 Q. Your visit to Konjic, was it in any way

24 related to the transport of the humanitarian assistance

25 that had been collected by our citizens in Austria?

Page 12390

1 A. Yes, we had some money and some other goods,

2 like cigarettes, a couple of radio stations, small

3 portable radio stations and some drinks for my Uncle

4 Zejnil.

5 Q. Upon your arrival in Konjic, were you a

6 civilian or did you become a soldier at that time?

7 A. For a couple of days, maybe three or four

8 days, I could not find a uniform, so I was a civilian

9 at that time, yes.

10 Q. When you came to Konjic, where did you go

11 to?

12 A. I first went to Zejnil's house hoping to find

13 him there, to give him the cigarettes and some wine,

14 but he was not there.

15 Q. So where did you stay?

16 A. I went to a farm that belongs to my aunt, a

17 couple of kilometres away from Sarajevo, where my

18 father was staying. A couple of kilometres towards

19 Sarajevo.

20 Q. You said that it happened at the beginning of

21 August, could you tell me whether you learned, at some

22 point in time, where Zejnil was and what function he

23 held?

24 A. I learned the whereabouts of Zejnil from my

25 father and he told me he was appointed some kind of

Page 12391

1 commander of a TG-1. That was the abbreviation. And

2 he was at Igman and at the position not far from

3 Sarajevo.

4 Q. At that time, what was your father involved

5 with when you arrived in Konjic?

6 A. At that time, my father had a warehouse, he

7 was actually working at the Celebici barracks. This is

8 what I learned a couple of days later when we went

9 there together.

10 Q. You have just answered my following

11 question. I wanted to know whether during that time,

12 while you were in Konjic, whether you visited the

13 barracks in Celebici?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Could you tell us now, who did you go with to

16 the barracks and how did you get there? Did you go

17 there by car, on foot or --

18 A. We went there by car. We took a white jeep

19 to get there.

20 Q. Did you have any specific work to attend to

21 in Celebici when you went there on that occasion?

22 A. Yes, one day after, or maybe two days after

23 my arrival, Irfan brought some batteries, empty

24 batteries and we wanted to go to Celebici to fill them

25 up because that was the only possibility to do that.

Page 12392

1 Apparently there was some kind of station for

2 recharging batteries.

3 Q. Was any one with you at that time in that

4 vehicle?

5 A. Well, there were three of us.

6 Q. Your father, yourself and?

7 A. And my brother.

8 Q. When you got to the barracks, was that your

9 first visit to the barrack, was that the first time

10 that you actually entered the barracks?

11 A. Yes, it was the first time that I went

12 there.

13 Q. Could you tell us where that station for

14 recharging batteries was located?

15 A. It was located next to the command or some

16 kind of administration building. It was on the left

17 hand side.

18 Q. So did you manage to finish your work as soon

19 as you got there. That is, did you eventually recharge

20 these batteries?

21 A. We did, but not as soon as we got there.

22 Q. What happened in the meantime?

23 A. When we got to the gate, my father asked one

24 of the guards where the key was and how he could

25 recharge his batteries. And the guard told us to go to

Page 12393

1 Hazim Delic and he told us that he had the key because

2 he often had to recharge batteries on his vehicle and

3 on some other vehicles as well. So we stopped near the

4 station, but Hazim was not there at that moment. And

5 there was another guard standing there and my father

6 asked him about Hazim and the guard told us that he had

7 just gone to have lunch and that we could find him in

8 front of one of the hangars. So we continued to the

9 hangars and at the entrance of one of the hangars, I

10 saw Hazim Delic. And my father told me that this was

11 Hazim. He was standing, or maybe he was approaching

12 the entrance to the hangar and we parked not far for

13 him, maybe 5 or 6 metres away from him and we went

14 towards him and he had already entered the hangar and I

15 was very close to the threshold and at that moment, my

16 father called him. He said something like Hazim, we

17 need the key. And then all of a sudden we heard one or

18 two shots and we were surprised and we were

19 frightened.

20 Q. At that moment when you heard the shot, at

21 that moment did you have the key that you were looking

22 for?

23 A. No, not at that moment. I think that it

24 somehow happened at the same time. He was giving me

25 the key, he was throwing it at me and I realised that

Page 12394

1 the rifle fired, it was some kind of automatic rifle.

2 And when my father said that we needed the key, so he

3 was about to throw it to us, and I didn't quite see it,

4 but I heard maybe one or two shots in the air.

5 Q. And what happened after that?

6 A. Well, I ran away, I ran outside. I was

7 probably at the entrance, but I didn't know what was

8 happening, so I simply ran away. Hazim wanted to see

9 what it was all about and we went back to the vehicle

10 and we drove back to the station for recharging

11 batteries.

12 Q. After that, while you were still at the

13 barracks, did you learn what had happened? What this

14 shot was all about?

15 A. Well, it took us awhile to recharge the

16 batteries and one of the guards said that someone had

17 been wounded. Apparently the bullet ricocheted from

18 the ceiling and that person who happened to be there,

19 at the ambulance, that he was injured and that he was

20 given, apparently, he was given first aid immediately.

21 Q. At that time, Mr. Delalic, were you wearing

22 uniform?

23 A. No. I did not have an uniform at that time.

24 I had a pair of jeans on and a T-shirt.

25 Q. Since you said that you came to the door of

Page 12395

1 the hangar, were you able to see anybody inside?

2 A. No, I could only make out figures of persons,

3 but outside it was very sunny and it was dark inside.

4 It was very hot, but I could not make out anyone's

5 face.

6 Q. But were you in a position where somebody

7 from inside the hangar could see you?

8 A. I believe that I could have been seen by a

9 number of people. Because I believed that I was either

10 at the threshold or I had stepped inside one or two

11 steps and that's where I was startled by this shot.

12 Q. After you had recharged your batteries and

13 learned that a person had been injured in there and was

14 given medical aid, did you leave immediately

15 afterwards, the Celebici barracks?

16 A. We first went to the warehouse where my

17 father worked, and I found a uniform and I found a

18 rifle and I took those.

19 Q. Mr. Delalic, do you know Mr. Pavo Mucic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. On that day, did you see Mr. Pavo Mucic at

22 the barracks?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Since you were present when the bullet was

25 discharged and later you heard from the guards what had

Page 12396

1 happened, can you tell in your own judgement, was this

2 sort of an accidental discharge?

3 A. In my opinion, I'm 100 per cent sure that

4 this was accidental because he was carrying the rifle

5 like this on his shoulder.

6 Q. Mr. Delalic, did you come back to the

7 Celebici barracks at any other point in time?

8 A. Yes. Later I came back at least five or six

9 additional times.

10 Q. Where did you go on each of these subsequent

11 occasions?

12 A. I went to the warehouse where my father

13 worked.

14 Q. Did you, at any of these occasions when you

15 went to the Celebici barracks, see any of the persons

16 who were detained there?

17 A. Yes. Some five or six days after I came from

18 Vienna, I went in the same way, the jeep, because I had

19 trouble clearing checkpoints with my Austrian car with

20 Austrian registration plates; so I used the jeep

21 because I had no problems with that. On this occasion,

22 I went to pick up my father who had stayed at the

23 Celebici barracks longer than usual. So I went over

24 there and I helped him load up some crates and we

25 started out.

Page 12397

1 As we were going from the warehouse to the

2 gate, about some 20 to 30 metres away from me, I saw

3 two men who were filleting a sheep, skinning it, on

4 some railroad tracks. My father told me to slow down,

5 actually, to stop there, to pull over so that he could

6 greet this person. His name was Smajo, nickname

7 Kurecan. He was a butcher.

8 Kurecan came over slowly and greeted us in a

9 sort of local way, and my father asked him, "Why are

10 you doing this? What kind of feast are you preparing

11 there?" And he said that this was a sheep -- Smajo and

12 Kurecan usually had these sheep in the compound, but he

13 said that he had to kill this sheep. My father said,

14 "How can you give a knife to a Chetnik there, a

15 weapon?" And he said his name was, I think, Zeleni

16 which means green. He was an older man and he said

17 that he was a fellow butcher who had a butcher shop in

18 Bradina. They were good friends. They were

19 colleagues, that he had arranged with Guska for him to

20 be released and so that he would most probably already

21 be released.

22 Q. Mr. Delalic, did you know this person of whom

23 you're talking now before? I'm not talking about Smajo

24 but about this butcher from Bradina; did you know him

25 from before?

Page 12398

1 A. No, I did not know him, but Smajo said that

2 he was his colleague, that he was from Bradina and that

3 his name was Zeleni.

4 Q. Mr. Delalic, you just mentioned another name,

5 the name of Guska. Did you know at that time when this

6 conversation took place in 1992; did you know who Guska

7 was?

8 A. Yes, I knew. I knew who Guska was. I knew

9 this man from before the war and he was a vet in the

10 town of Konjic. I knew him on a private basis because

11 he used to come to Prozor either on business or

12 privately. I know that during the elections in Konjic

13 town, he was elected or appointed, I should say, the

14 chief of the MUP station.

15 Q. Did you at that time or subsequently meet any

16 of the staff of people who worked in that

17 administration building in the barracks?

18 A. Yes, that is when I first saw Pavo. It was

19 in the compound. We were approaching the

20 administration building because my father needed to

21 bring back the key to the warehouse. This took no

22 longer than half a minute to a minute, and my father

23 walked out with Pavo and greeted him. I greeted him

24 too and I knew him from before. He said, "Here's

25 Pavo. See, now he works here. He no longer digs

Page 12399

1 manholes and trenches in Austria like before," and then

2 we greeted each other and I left.

3 Q. Thank you. You said several times now that

4 you drove a white jeep. Whose jeep was it and do you

5 know who drove it in Konjic?

6 A. The jeep belonged to my Uncle Zejnil. There

7 was a white jeep and a green jeep. I drove this jeep

8 while I was there. I don't know if I was there for a

9 month, a month and ten, twenty days. Also my father,

10 my brother, Irfan, just about anybody who needed it,

11 drove it.

12 Q. Did anyone else in your family have a white

13 jeep?

14 A. Yes. My Uncle Sefik also had one.

15 Q. Did he have this jeep in Austria or in Konjic

16 while he was engaged in the defence efforts in Konjic?

17 A. He had bought that jeep in Austria but he

18 drove it down to Konjic and he kept it with him while

19 he was there.

20 Q. Mr. Delalic, you can probably answer the

21 following question: Is your family, the family

22 Delalic, a large family?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. We know that one of your uncles died just

25 before the war, on the eve of war. How many brothers

Page 12400

1 were alive, including your Uncle Zejnil, in early 1992?

2 A. In 1992, there were five of them alive.

3 Q. Were all of them in Konjic in 1992?

4 A. All of them with exception of Vejsil who

5 worked and lived in Zagreb.

6 Q. Do you know the name Dzafer Delalic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who is that?

9 A. This was my oldest uncle who died, I believe,

10 in 1984 or '85.

11 Q. Mr. Delalic, if somebody said, in this court,

12 that they saw your Uncle Dzafer Delalic in the Celebici

13 compound, what would you say to that?

14 A. That this is not true and that he couldn't

15 have been there even in theory because he had died some

16 six or seven years before the outbreak of war.

17 Q. Mr. Delalic, did your uncles bear any family

18 resemblance?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who looked the closest to whom?

21 A. Sefik and Zejnil looked alike the most.

22 Q. Are they all sort of strongly built?

23 A. Yes. Everybody is sort of built like myself

24 and my Uncle Zejnil.

25 Q. Did you ever go to the Celebici barracks with

Page 12401

1 your Uncle Zejnil?

2 A. No. He and I never went in there together.

3 Q. Did you ever see him during your stay in

4 Konjic?

5 A. I first saw him sometime in the latter part

6 of August before the swearing in for the TO members of

7 Konjic.

8 Q. In the beginning of your testimony, you said

9 that for awhile you were in Konjic town and then later

10 you went to Prozor. During this period, did you, in a

11 way, join the Territorial Defence of Prozor?

12 A. As soon as I arrived in Prozor, I reported to

13 the headquarters of the Territorial Defence. They knew

14 that I was not going to stay long in Prozor, but I

15 offered to do whatever I could.

16 Q. Did you know in 1992 the commander of the

17 staff of the Territorial Defence in Prozor on a

18 personal basis?

19 A. Yes, I did know him.

20 Q. Do you know his name? Do you know his first

21 and last name?

22 A. Yes. The commander of the staff of the

23 Territorial Defence in Prozor was Muharem Sabic. And

24 from other people from Prozor, I learned that before

25 the war he was a career military man, so he was very

Page 12402

1 welcome in the territorial staff, and it was also Smajo

2 Rujic who was also from Prozor.

3 Q. While you were in Prozor, could you learn

4 from the people in the headquarters what the relations

5 were between the Territorial Defence headquarters and

6 the HVO in Prozor?

7 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, microphone.

8 JUDGE JAN: How is he a competent witness on

9 this point?

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Probably not for the overall

11 relations, but for the period of time when he was

12 there, he could know because he was both from Prozor

13 and he had contacts with the municipal staff. So I'm

14 limiting my questioning of him to that.

15 Q. You can say. If you know anything, go ahead,

16 please.

17 A. In my judgement, the relations were good

18 because the army, that is, the TO of Prozor at that

19 time and the HVO together manned the front-lines towards

20 Kupres where the Chetniks were. As far as the military

21 cooperation is concerned, that was all right, but there

22 was tension around. This had something to do with the

23 school system, but I did not try to find out more about

24 that. But in terms of their holding together, the

25 front-lines at Kupres, that was fine.

Page 12403

1 Q. My next question now is redundant because I

2 wanted to ask you whether during your stay there, there

3 was any kind of armed conflict between these two

4 components of the army, and you already said that the

5 relations were good?

6 A. No, there was none.

7 Q. During your stay in Prozor, did you learn

8 that your Uncle Zejnil Delalic had some command

9 authority over the staff with which you were briefly

10 involved?

11 A. No, nobody mentioned him as their potential

12 commander.

13 Q. Do you know whether, at some point in time,

14 in 1992, the HVO attacked the forces of the Territorial

15 Defence in Prozor?

16 A. After I returned to Austria, sometime in

17 early September, I think it was around 10 September,

18 the situation was regular in Prozor. But about ten

19 days later, I was surprised to hear on Austrian

20 television that the units of the HVO had attacked the

21 town of Prozor. I was surprised and shocked to hear

22 that because my mother had remained there.

23 Q. Except for the news on Austrian television,

24 did you have any other information about your family

25 suffering certain damage during that attack?

Page 12404

1 A. I later learned through some people that my

2 house was one of the first ones to be hit by a shell

3 from a tank, and it was partially burned. The majority

4 of Muslim houses were Prozor were damaged, and about 95

5 per cent of the Muslim population was driven out, and a

6 part of the Muslim population managed to organise some

7 kind of resistance.

8 Q. Mr. Delalic, you told us about your

9 experiences. I would just like you to look at certain

10 documents offered by the Prosecution, and I would like

11 to show the witness certain documents. I think it's

12 Prosecution Exhibit 1. I think these are some

13 photographs of the Celebici compound. I'm being

14 alerted to the transcript; I'm not sure.

15 Let me ask you to look at the photographs,

16 and if you should see a photograph that you recognise,

17 please put that photograph on the ELMO and explain

18 anything that relates to that photograph, that is, if

19 any of the events which you related took place in that

20 area?

21 A. I don't know about the gate itself. It may

22 not be that interesting. I can show in this photograph

23 where the batteries were recharged.

24 Q. Is there a number next to that photograph,

25 please?

Page 12405

1 A. Yes, it is number 7.

2 Q. Could you please put that photograph on the

3 ELMO, and then you also have a pointer somewhere near

4 you, if you can use it to point to the structure or

5 room where these batteries were recharged?

6 A. (Indicating).

7 Q. Thank you. I would just like to, for the

8 transcript, say that the witness pointed to a structure

9 where the batteries were recharged.

10 A. Yes. I can show on photograph number 33;

11 this is the hangar where the accidental shooting

12 occurred.

13 Q. Could you please put it on the ELMO and can

14 you point to where it is? Can the photograph please be

15 displayed on the ELMO? Yes, thank you. Can you now

16 please point?

17 A. (Indicating).

18 Q. Can you just tell me whether the door to the

19 hangar, when you were there; was the door open or not?

20 A. The door was open.

21 Q. Thank you. For the record, the witness has

22 identified this area. Is there another photograph in

23 this album, which is the Prosecutor's Exhibit, which

24 you can recognise as a place which you went to during

25 your visit to the barracks?

Page 12406

1 A. This is the photograph of the warehouse where

2 my father worked.

3 Q. What number is it?

4 A. Number 43. This is where my father worked

5 and this is where I came most frequently.

6 Q. Can you please look at the remainder of the

7 photographs? If you can recognise another place where

8 you went, please do that.

9 A. The bottom photograph may also be relevant.

10 It is around here somewhere that I saw these two men

11 who had slaughtered a sheep and who were skinning it.

12 Q. Thank you. I'm sorry, what was the last

13 photograph's number? I didn't hear you say the

14 number.

15 A. This is photograph number 44, except you

16 cannot see very well. I see some railroad cars there

17 and I don't recall those at all. This is the road that

18 leads out of the compound, and this is where a little

19 concrete barrier was for stopping the railroad cars.

20 And that's where they had slaughtered that sheep.

21 Q. Thank you. One last question: Mr. Delalic,

22 testifying under oath, can you say with certainty on

23 that day when there was this accidental discharge from

24 the rifle of Mr. Delic --

25 JUDGE JAN: He has not said the rifle of

Page 12407

1 Mr. Delic at all --

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: I withdraw the question.

3 Q. You have already testified who was with you,

4 so I'm not going to ask the question again. The Trial

5 Chamber already knows what your answer was.

6 After your return to Austria, did you, along

7 with other members of your family who were there,

8 continue to assist in the defence of Bosnia in the ways

9 that you could?

10 A. Yes. In fact, we redoubled our efforts,

11 because after I returned to Bosnia, the HVO joined the

12 Chetniks in attacking the Muslim population.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Delalic, I want to thank

14 you for responding to our call and testifying here

15 before this Tribunal.

16 Your Honours, this completes my examination

17 of this witness.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination of

19 this witness?

20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, no

21 cross-examination on behalf of Mr. Mucic. I would only

22 make one request, that Mr. Mucic be allowed to use the

23 restroom very quickly and he will be right back.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, he may. Any

25 questions? Any cross-examination?

Page 12408

1 MR. KARABDIC: No questions.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination --

3 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I have a couple

4 of questions, thank you.


6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Delalic.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. My name is Cynthia McMurrey and I represent

9 Esad Landzo. Can you stand from your seat and see the

10 Prosecution's model of Celebici in front of the witness

11 stand? Do you see the concrete bunker that you were

12 talking about that stopped the trains from going any

13 further at the point near the administration building

14 that you identified in the photographs? Can you point

15 to that? I don't know if it's possible for you to

16 point and identify this concrete block that you're

17 talking about.

18 A. (Indicating).

19 Q. Thank you. Is that where you said you saw,

20 Smajo the butcher, slaughtering the sheep?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I'm sorry. Could you rise one more time?

23 That concrete block that you see right there, that

24 concrete block is really about one-quarter the size of

25 the concrete block that is actually in Celebici, isn't

Page 12409

1 it?

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose you're

3 confusing him. You mean the replica he sees here?

4 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry. I'll try to make

5 it clear.

6 Q. That replica that you see here, that little

7 piece that represents the concrete block, in actuality

8 in Celebici, that concrete block is about four times

9 larger than that, isn't it?

10 A. Yes, it's much larger. It's like this maybe.

11 Q. Thank you. You can sit down now. You said

12 that you saw one of the detainees with a knife with

13 Smajo the butcher, I believe his name was Zeleni, when

14 you were in the camp; is that right?

15 A. Yes. On that occasion, together with Smajo,

16 I saw one person whom I didn't know at the time, and he

17 introduced him as Zeleni. He said he was a colleague

18 from Bradina who also had a butcher shop in Bradina.

19 Q. Did you see any other detainees that you can

20 remember when you were on your trip to Celebici, on

21 your five or six trips in?

22 A. No, I only remember that man. As I was

23 walking up and down that road going to see my father,

24 most usually there would be no one there, maybe one or

25 two guards.

Page 12410

1 Q. When you saw this detainee, Zeleni, did he

2 look like he had been beaten?

3 A. No, he didn't look like that.

4 MS. McMURREY: I have no further questions.

5 Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Questions by the

7 Prosecution.

8 MR. TURONE: Thank you, Your Honour.


10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Delalic. My name is

11 Turone and I am going to ask you some questions for the

12 Prosecution.

13 Q. Mr. Delalic, could you give us, please, the

14 names of your brother and your father?

15 A. Semir Delalic and my father's name is Zahir.

16 Q. What was their job or their position in

17 either Konjic or Prozor or anywhere in Bosnia?

18 A. You mean during the war?

19 Q. Yes, during the period we are talking about,

20 did your brother live in Bosnia or did he also live

21 abroad?

22 A. At that time, my brother was in Bosnia and he

23 was a driver with the military police. It was at the

24 time when I went to Bosnia-Herzegovina. And my father

25 was working in one of the warehouses here, as I

Page 12411

1 indicated on the model.

2 Q. Yes, sure. And exactly, your father, Zahir,

3 which kind of warehouse had to take care of inside

4 Celebici?

5 A. It was a military warehouse where weapons

6 were stored, hand grenades, uniforms, military booths

7 and military equipment in general.

8 Q. And was your father, Zahir, part of

9 Territorial Defence, either in Konjic or in Prozor?

10 A. Yes, he was.

11 Q. Exactly what position did he have inside

12 Territorial Defence?

13 A. Well, what his title exactly was, I don't

14 know. He was simply there. He was in charge of

15 receiving and issuing equipment. Several times when I

16 was there, I saw lorries unloading or loading supplies

17 and he was in charge of putting it all down on a piece

18 of paper.

19 Q. Was he part of the Territorial Defence of

20 Konjic or Prozor?

21 A. At that time, he was a member of the Konjic

22 Territorial Defence because he was in Konjic at that

23 time.

24 Q. And do you know who was his immediate

25 superior?

Page 12412

1 A. I don't know that.

2 Q. And what about your brother, you said he was

3 a driver for the military police, who was the immediate

4 superior of your brother Semir?

5 A. I don't know that either too. Most of the

6 time, we were together while I was there and I didn't

7 see, I mean I didn't think that he had a major role to

8 play there.

9 Q. Do you know --

10 JUDGE JAN: Was it the MUP or?

11 THE WITNESS: No, no, he was a member of the

12 military police, not the MUP.


14 Q. When you say "military police", you mean

15 military police of HVO or TO?

16 A. The TO military police because, at that time,

17 there were already two different military polices

18 because there were actually two armies. And at that

19 time they were on the same side.

20 Q. Yes, but your brother was a driver for the TO

21 military police. And again, TO Konjic or TO Prozor?

22 A. Konjic. May I just add something? When I

23 arrived in Prozor, the situation was calm and the town

24 itself wouldn't have been exposed to any kind of

25 problems if there hadn't been for the conflict between

Page 12413

1 the HVO and Muslims later on. There were lines towards

2 Kupres that were being held at that time and there was

3 some shelling and this would have been all if it hadn't

4 been for the conflict with the Croats.

5 JUDGE JAN: Unnecessary.

6 THE WITNESS: And most probably that was the

7 reason why he came back to Konjic because nothing was

8 actually happening in Prozor.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't know whether you

10 really have any questions for him for all that he has

11 testified here? Do you really have any questions for

12 him?

13 MR. TURONE: Well, Your Honour, I think I

14 might have some questions for this witness. Why not?

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, let's hear you.


17 Q. May I ask that the witness be shown the --

18 this picture, please. It's exhibit -- Defence Exhibit

19 D-13 A-1. Yes, this is a copy, the registrar might

20 have the original, please.

21 JUDGE JAN: What is this document?

22 MR. TURONE: It was tendered by Ms.

23 Residovic.

24 Q. In the meantime -- okay, this picture. Could

25 you please see this picture and see whether you

Page 12414

1 recognise yourself in this picture?

2 A. Yes, that's me.

3 Q. And that's all with this picture, thank you.

4 Could you tell us, who is Irfan? You have been talking

5 about somebody by the name of Irfan. Who is that?

6 A. Irfan married a cousin of mine and he was a

7 driver and according to someone, he was also a

8 bodyguard. Zejnil Delalic, well, he was a bodyguard, I

9 don't know, but he definitely was a driver.

10 Q. Okay, you say that you arrived in Bosnia

11 after your Uncle Sefik, end of July, how long did you

12 remain in Bosnia entirely, in all?

13 A. Maybe a month and a half.

14 JUDGE JAN: He's already said that.


16 Q. How long did you stay in Konjic and how long

17 did you stay in Prozor inside the one month and a half,

18 approximately?

19 A. I think that I stayed longer in Konjic. And

20 since this is not very far, I mean the distance is 40

21 or 50 kilometres, it was possible for me to be both in

22 Konjic and Prozor in one single day.

23 Q. And when you arrived, you said that for two

24 or three days you remained without a uniform and you

25 were a civilian. Then, the first time you went to

Page 12415

1 Celebici, you received a uniform and the rifle, taking

2 them from the warehouse of your father, is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. At that time, when you received this uniform

6 and rifle, were you a member of TO already?

7 A. Well, I don't know what you mean. I did not

8 belong to Konjic or Prozor at the time, I simply put on

9 an uniform and I made myself at their disposal. I made

10 myself available to them, both to Prozor and Konjic.

11 Q. So, as a matter of fact, do you mean that you

12 were considered a member of the TO by the headquarters

13 of the TO, both in Konjic and Prozor?

14 A. Could you please repeat the question?

15 Q. Yes. You became a soldier when you received

16 a uniform --

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection, Your Honour, how

18 can he know what other people think of him.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it might be

20 easier to explain to the witness. You said you are

21 commuting between Prozor and Konjic at all times. Now,

22 when you became a soldier, when you got the uniform and

23 you wore them, you were then a soldier, did you belong

24 to Konjic or to Prozor, which of the groups did you

25 belong to?

Page 12416

1 THE WITNESS: I belonged to my hometown, to

2 Prozor.

3 MR. TURONE: Did you have any relationship

4 also with the TO headquarters in Konjic?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So you simply received a uniform from the

7 warehouse of your father, which was belonging to the TO

8 headquarters of Konjic, is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know who was your superior?

11 A. While I was there, I didn't take any kind of

12 oath to any of the staff. Therefore, when I went to

13 Prozor, I simply took something that my father wanted

14 to send to the staff. In Prozor, this was usually a

15 certain amount of ammunition or things like that. I

16 would often bring a piece of paper, so that they can

17 receive it in an official manner at the headquarters.

18 Q. But who gave you instructions then when you

19 were in Konjic?

20 A. What kind of instructions do you have in

21 mind?

22 Q. Well, any instructions of orders being, since

23 you were in any case a soldier who was the person in

24 charge of and entitled to giving you any kind of

25 instruction or order.

Page 12417

1 A. I just said that I hadn't taken any oath to

2 any of the headquarters, Konjic or Prozor alike, so I

3 didn't have a commander. My arrival in

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina was simply to help my people. Any

5 kind of help was useful and I had to -- at that point,

6 I had to take some supplies to the headquarters in

7 Prozor.

8 Q. Okay, I am not going to press it any more.

9 When you said something about Mr. Mucic and the

10 presence of Mr. Mucic in Celebici, what was the

11 position of Mr. Mucic in Celebici, do you know?

12 A. No, I don't know that. For me, he was like

13 other guards. For example, a person who was wearing a

14 uniform with no particular ranks or insignia.

15 Q. And do you know what was the position of Mr.

16 Delic there in Celebici?

17 A. No, I don't know. To me he looked like a

18 guard. Every time I went there, every time I saw him

19 there, he had a rifle in his hand and that was it.

20 Q. Mr. Delalic, do you know names of any other

21 guards who were in Celebici?

22 A. No. I would never stay very long with the

23 guards. When they saw a white jeep, my white jeep,

24 they would open the gate because they knew that I was

25 going to the warehouse which had nothing to do with the

Page 12418

1 people who were detained there.

2 Q. How many times did you see Zejnil Delalic

3 during the time of your stay in Konjic and Prozor?

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Asked and answered, Your

5 Honours.


7 Q. I would like to know where it was and when

8 you saw your Uncle Zejnil in that month and a half you

9 were either in Konjic or Prozor?

10 A. I saw him the night before the oath taking,

11 which, as I heard, was supposed to take place within

12 the Celebici barracks. He had come from Igman on that

13 occasion and that was when I saw him. It was in the

14 second half of August.

15 Q. You stated that there is a big family

16 resemblance among you, of members of the family. May I

17 ask that the witness be also shown Defence Exhibits

18 13-A, B -- A, B and D-1, please. Can you please put

19 them on the ELMO, please.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I remember he qualified

21 it by saying, especially their large size, their huge

22 size.


24 Q. Can you put them one by one there on the

25 ELMO, please. Do you recognise anybody in this picture

Page 12419

1 on the ELMO?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who is this man?

4 A. That's my Uncle Sefik.

5 Q. All right. Could you please put on the ELMO

6 another of these photos.

7 JUDGE JAN: But your own witness has said a

8 strong family resemblance, if you remember plainly.

9 Your own witness has said, the strong family

10 resemblance.

11 MR. TURONE: If Your Honours direct me not to

12 go into this issue, I will follow your directions, Your

13 Honour.

14 JUDGE JAN: It is your own evidence.

15 MR. TURONE: But the Prosecution is following

16 its own line of questions because the strategy of

17 Prosecution considers this of some importance.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: To what you have given

19 in evidence. What your witnesses have said is a strong

20 family resemblance in such a manner that you may not

21 distinguish it from the accused.

22 MR. TURONE: Does Your Honour mean that --

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Your witnesses have so

24 said in their testimony. If you want to contradict

25 that, you can go ahead.

Page 12420

1 MR. TURONE: There might be some other reason

2 why the Prosecution intends to do that.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can do that.


5 Q. So this is D-13 A-1, do you recognise the

6 person in this picture, Mr. Delalic?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Can you give us the name of this person?

9 A. Dzemal Delalic, my other uncle.

10 Q. Dzemal Delalic. And so, would you please put

11 on the ELMO, the last picture, please.

12 Q. This is D-13 B-1. Can you say who are the

13 persons who appear in this picture, Mr. Delalic?

14 A. Here, in the middle, this is my brother, and

15 these two young men are from Prozor.

16 Q. All right, thank you very much, Mr. Delalic.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Since the witness has

18 identified these photographs, I suggest that they be

19 admitted into evidence.

20 MR. TURONE: No objection.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I will admit them.


23 Q. Mr. Delalic, when you went to Celebici the

24 first time and you saw Mr. Delic there, did your father

25 and brother or any of them get also into the hangar,

Page 12421

1 inside the hangar?

2 A. No, I was the only one who was actually

3 inside the hangar, but only at the door.

4 Q. And you heard one or two shots, you said, is

5 that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You heard them coming from inside the hangar,

8 is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you said in direct that there were shots

11 in the air, how do you know they were shots in the

12 air?

13 A. I know because that was the way Hazim was

14 holding the rifle. It pointed towards the air and he

15 was the only one who had the rifle there.

16 Q. Was that an automatic rifle as far as you

17 know?

18 A. Yes, it was an automatic rifle. He was

19 holding it like this with one hand.

20 Q. And how far inside the hangar was Delic when

21 the shot took place, when the shot or the shots took

22 place?

23 A. You mean how far from myself? From where I

24 was?

25 Q. I mean how far inside. How far from the

Page 12422

1 entrance door he was inside the hangar.

2 A. Well, perhaps, 2 metres, 2 1/2.

3 Q. And besides Mr. Delic and you for just a

4 limited space, was anybody else, had anybody else

5 entered the hangar together with Mr. Delic when this

6 incident took place?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And you said that a person inside the hangar

9 got injured, did you happen to see this person?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And how did you know that this person got

12 hurt?

13 A. This is what I heard later on from the guards

14 as we were recharging batteries. One of the guards

15 told us that apparently the bullet had ricocheted from

16 the ceiling and wounded one of the prisoners and he was

17 immediately given first aid and taken to the

18 infirmary.

19 Q. Okay, thank you. Let's go to the time when

20 you arrived to Bosnia from Austria, end of July or

21 beginning of August. Did you drive to Bosnia then?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Which kind of a vehicle?

24 A. At that time I had an American vehicle, a

25 Chrysler, with Vienna license plates.

Page 12423

1 Q. Yes, and how did you get through the

2 checkpoints with that car?

3 A. Well, I had to cross Croatia, that was the

4 only way to reach Bosnia-Herzegovina, so I came from

5 the coast. I followed the road along the coast, all

6 the way to Ploca and from Ploca I went in the direction

7 of Prozor and Konjic and there were no problems at that

8 time. This area was controlled by Croats, of course,

9 and then by the HVO from Ploca to Jablanica and from

10 Jablanica on, it was also the area controlled by the

11 Territorial Defence, I mean both by the Territorial

12 Defence and the HVO. And during that period, there was

13 no problems for Croats and Muslims to move around.

14 Q. So you mean you didn't need any

15 authorisation, or did you have any authorisation?

16 A. Authorisation for what?

17 Q. To travel with your car along the roads

18 you've just mentioned.

19 A. No, there was no need to have such

20 authorisation.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. Because the war was somewhere else.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

24 now rise and reassemble at 4.30.

25 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.

Page 12424

1 --- On resuming at 4.34 p.m.

2 MS. McMURREY: I ask for permission for Ms.

3 Boler not to be in the courtroom for the rest of the

4 afternoon. Thank you.

5 (The witness entered court)

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly inform the

7 witness he's still under oath.

8 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that

9 you're still under oath.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Mr.

11 Turone.

12 MR. TURONE: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Delalic, do you agree with me that this

14 man Irfan was the driver of your Uncle Zejnil; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Mr. Delalic, did you ever work with your

18 Uncle Zejnil in Vienna in the Inda-Bau company or in

19 the Inda-Mas company?

20 A. No, I worked with my Uncle Sefik.

21 Q. And which kind of work did you do?

22 A. Uncle Sefik had a construction company, also

23 had a restaurant, so I was involved in both of his

24 enterprises.

25 Q. And you didn't visit or help in any way your

Page 12425

1 Uncle Zejnil in his business; is that correct?

2 A. No.

3 MR. TURONE: This concludes my

4 cross-examination, Your Honour. Thank you. Thank you

5 Mr. Delalic.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for

9 your assistance. You are discharged now.

10 (The witness withdrew)

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have your next

12 witness, please?

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, my apologies,

14 the next witness is present here; however, you know

15 that these witnesses have travelled all night. He is

16 not fully prepared. He is experiencing a little bit of

17 a problem; however, if you want, we could start now

18 rather than tomorrow at ten.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why you decided what to

20 do and when to do it? We have indicated very clearly

21 you have to call your witnesses if they are present.

22 That is all the Trial Chamber is interested in. If you

23 do not want to call them because you choose not to, you

24 can tell the Trial Chamber that.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I just wanted to

Page 12426

1 point to a condition that the witness is in. He is

2 present here outside the courtroom. I was just trying

3 to point out that his health condition is not 100 per

4 cent.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Already we should have

7 been having your witnesses since the week. You made us

8 lose part of Tuesday, and we did not use yesterday

9 usefully as much as we could, and you are trying to

10 introduce other difficulties. I don't think this is

11 the right thing for counsel to do. Counsel should try

12 to be of assistance to the Trial Chamber, and this is

13 the part of integrity which we ascribe to counsel, so

14 call your witness --

15 JUDGE JAN: You can call him, and if he feels

16 unwell, then we'll think it over.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I call Ismet

18 Ciso, and I decline to accept your last comments

19 because we are trying to conform with the instructions

20 of the court.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone not on)

22 ... defence sufficiently, and you will find that the

23 witnesses you have tendered to us are quite different

24 from the ones you are now calling. The last witness

25 and this one were not on your list, but we don't worry,

Page 12427

1 we still take them.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: These witnesses are from our

3 enlarged list. We have called them this week because

4 we wanted to reduce the amount of testimony of many

5 witnesses and not to have any questions duplicated.

6 (The witness entered court)

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please swear the

8 witness.

9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

10 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

11 truth.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Take your seat, please.

13 JUDGE JAN: He appears to be quite cheerful.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Until the questions

15 tumble in.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: I believe that the witness

17 knows best how he feels. I hope that he will answer

18 the questions in a way that he has just pledged to do

19 and that we will get to the truth of this matter.



22 Q. Sir, will you please introduce yourself by

23 stating your full first and last names?

24 A. My name is Ismet Ciso.

25 Q. Mr. Ciso, thank you for responding to the

Page 12428

1 request of the Defence to come here and for travelling

2 overnight.

3 Before we start, let me just give you

4 technical advice. You and I speak the same language

5 and you would be in a position to very quickly answer

6 my questions; however, our conversation needs to be

7 interpreted and taken down on the transcript, and

8 everybody present here in the courtroom needs to be

9 able to follow us. So, please, when I ask you a

10 question, will you please listen to the interpretation

11 coming from the headset on your desk and only then

12 respond to my question; did you understand what I just

13 said, sir?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Mr. Ciso, could you please tell

16 us when and where were you born?

17 A. I was born on 27 August, 1956 in Jablanica,

18 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19 Q. What is your education and where did you

20 receive it?

21 A. I completed my primary school in Konjic and

22 the police academy in Sarajevo in 1974, and the course

23 for administration in Sarajevo, and I have become a

24 paralegal.

25 Q. What was your profession before the war?

Page 12429

1 A. I was a traffic policeman in the police

2 station in Konjic.

3 Q. Where did you live before the war?

4 A. I lived in Konjic, in Maksim Kujundzic

5 Street, number 95B.

6 Q. Mr. Ciso, did you at any point in time leave

7 Konjic before the war and where did you live after

8 that?

9 A. I left Konjic on the very eve of war and I

10 moved -- in fact, I went to Vienna in Austria for

11 temporary work.

12 Q. Where do you live now, Mr. Ciso?

13 A. I currently live in Vienna, Austria with my

14 family.

15 Q. Mr. Ciso, do you know Mr. Delalic and since

16 when have you known him?

17 A. I have known Mr. Zejnil Delalic for about ten

18 years, some ten years.

19 Q. What kind of acquaintance is it?

20 A. It is an acquaintanceship. I was a traffic

21 policeman. He would come to visit his home town. I

22 would see him once or twice a year in restaurants, in

23 streets, in different places.

24 Q. After you came to Austria, did you learn what

25 Mr. Delalic was engaged in?

Page 12430

1 A. There is an age gap between myself and

2 Mr. Zejnil Delalic; however, I was very close with his

3 brothers Sefik and Dzemal, so it is from them that I

4 learned that Zejnil was in Germany, that occasionally

5 he came to Vienna. I knew for awhile that he has

6 worked abroad.

7 Q. Do you have any knowledge about where

8 Mr. Zejnil Delalic was during 1992?

9 A. As I just stated, I was a good friend with

10 some of the members of the family. I also heard that

11 they had a death in the family, that I believe his

12 brother died in April or sometime. They all went to

13 Ostrozac where this deceased member of the family was

14 buried.

15 Q. Do you know whether Zejnil Delalic returned

16 to Vienna or Munich after this burial?

17 A. Zejnil did not go back immediately, but Sefik

18 and Dzemal did come back immediately and they told me

19 that Zejnil had stayed behind. The war had already

20 started and Zejnil wanted to stay behind and get

21 involved in the defence of the country.

22 Q. Since you came to Austria before the

23 beginning of the war, that is, before April 1992 when

24 the war broke out, did the refugees from Bosnia start

25 coming to Austria during that period?

Page 12431

1 A. Yes, it is a well-attested fact that there

2 were a number of refugees that started streaming in

3 from different parts of Bosnia, including my hometown

4 and the surrounding area.

5 Q. Did you yourself become involved in the

6 organisation and collection of aid for your hometown

7 and for the defence forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

8 A. We followed these dramatic events and

9 suffering of our people, so we became active and

10 started collecting assistance so that we did have quite

11 a bit of information regarding the suffering, the lack

12 of medical supplies, food and clothing. And Dzemal,

13 Zejnil's brother, told me that Zejnil sent a number of

14 appeals to help as much as we could to provide food,

15 clothing, footwear and other kinds of supplies.

16 Q. Mr. Ciso, can you tell me how was this aid

17 usually sent to Konjic?

18 A. We were a people who did not have a great

19 tradition of living abroad, so we did not have any

20 clubs. What we did is: We organised an association of

21 Bosnian citizens in Austria called the SDA, and we were

22 able, through this organisation, to collect a fair

23 amount of this humanitarian-type aid, including food,

24 clothing, footwear, medication, and we used different

25 channels. We would collect it in Vienna and then we

Page 12432

1 would transport it to Zagreb where there was a centre

2 of sorts. This is where these goods would be taken

3 over by Zejnil's brother, Vejsil, and he had his own

4 channels by which he distributed it to the final

5 destinations.

6 Q. Mr. Ciso, you just mentioned an association

7 of Bosnians in Vienna. My question to you is were you

8 a member of this association?

9 A. Yes, I have been a member of this association

10 practically since the day it was founded and I was

11 greatly concerned that we should have an association

12 which was founded according to the laws of Austria.

13 This is an association of citizens of Bosnia and its

14 aim is cultural and sports exchange.

15 Q. Thank you. I would like now to show the

16 witness Prosecution Exhibit P-99. I think it's 7/2 and

17 I have prepared a sufficient number of copies for the

18 court.

19 Mr. Ciso, before I ask you the question

20 relating to this document, let me just ask you another

21 thing: You said that Mr. Zejnil Delalic stayed behind

22 after the burial of his brother, he stayed in Konjic.

23 Can you tell me whether, after that, he came to Vienna

24 in April or May?

25 A. No, he never came to Vienna in the short

Page 12433

1 period after the burial of his brother.

2 Q. I would now like to ask you to look at this

3 booklet. Is this the booklet issued by these

4 associations, this Bosnian cultural circle?

5 A. Yes, it is. It is what has been -- it is a

6 document that has been adopted through the statute of

7 this association.

8 Q. You just told the Tribunal that you were one

9 of the first or maybe the founding members of this

10 association. Do you have a similar membership card

11 like the one that we have produced here?

12 A. Yes, an identical one.

13 Q. Mr. Ciso, we have Mr. Delalic's membership

14 document here. It is dated 4 May, 1992. Can you tell

15 me how Mr. Delalic became a member of this association?

16 A. Yes, I know very well. His brother --

17 Q. I would just like to ask you to wait with

18 your answer until the interpretation is complete, thank

19 you.

20 A. Yes. Dzemal, Zejnil's brother, and myself,

21 when we took our memberships, we then took a membership

22 out for Zejnil as well, and I took a membership out for

23 my wife at the time as well because we were very

24 concerned that we get as many members as possible, both

25 in order to raise enough money through membership fees

Page 12434

1 and to involve as many people as possible. So this

2 membership was issued to Zejnil Delalic on his request

3 through his brother Dzemal and myself.

4 Q. Very well. We are finished with this

5 document. It can be returned now. Thank you.

6 Mr. Ciso, can you tell me whether this

7 association, SDA Vienna; did it have its own statute?

8 A. Yes. The association of the Austrian SDA has

9 its own statute which has been submitted to the

10 authorities of the republic of Austria and they issued

11 the permission for this association to be established

12 under this name, the SDA of Austria.

13 Q. Can I now please ask for assistance in

14 showing the witness D-136 and D-35?

15 MS. McHENRY: Excuse me for interrupting, can

16 you repeat the number or if there are extra copies?

17 THE REGISTRAR: The number is D-136, D-35.


19 Q. I would like the witness to be shown, yes,

20 35, but 36 as well. Sir, this first document that you

21 just received, is this a certificate that was issued in

22 Vienna on the 10th September 1996?

23 A. Yes, this is the certificate of our

24 association, with our stamp, our heading and the

25 signature of our president, Mr. Tofic Velgic (phoen).

Page 12435

1 Q. Is it true that the certificate bears the

2 title, "Association of Bosnia Cultural Association" and

3 that is a non-political association?

4 A. There is no question about it. This

5 association was registered as a Muslim cultural

6 association and there's no way that such an association

7 could function, could operate in Austria in accordance

8 with their regulations if it were political in

9 character. It's a simple association of citizens of

10 the Republic of Bosnia in Austria.

11 Q. Mr. Ciso, can also confirm the voracity of

12 the contents of the certificate?

13 A. Yes, this is 100% true and, as I said,

14 there's no question about it.

15 Q. Thank you very much. This document may now

16 be returned. Could you now, please, have a look at the

17 other document that has been shown to you? I'm sorry,

18 the other document, is that a statute of the

19 association?

20 A. Yes, this is the statute of the association,

21 which was recognised by the authorities of the republic

22 of Austria, authorities that were in charge of

23 registering such associations.

24 Q. Did you see this statute before as a member

25 of the association?

Page 12436

1 A. It was after I had read the statute that I

2 decided to join the association, otherwise I would

3 never become its member. There's no way I could join

4 association without knowing what its purpose -- what

5 its objective is.

6 Q. Thank you very much, this document may now be

7 returned. Mr. Ciso, could you now tell us whether in

8 1992, after the war had started in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

9 did you ever go to Konjic?

10 A. Yes, I was fortunate enough to go to Konjic

11 on several occasions throughout 1992.

12 Q. Could you be more specific, when exactly did

13 you go to Konjic in 1992?

14 A. The first time I went to Konjic in 1992, it

15 was a very brief visit which took place in mid-August.

16 At that time I was free to leave my work and I had an

17 opportunity to visit my family down there and I was

18 able to bring them things they needed at the time.

19 Q. And could you remember when did you go to

20 Konjic after that?

21 A. I believe it was in October or November, I

22 couldn't be more specific than that. But in one of

23 these two months that, for sure.

24 Q. During your visits to Konjic in 1992, did you

25 ever meet with Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

Page 12437

1 A. It is true that when I went to Konjic I had

2 taken certain things with Mr. Delalic and things for

3 others citizens of Konjic, members of families I was

4 acquainted with, but on that occasion I didn't meet

5 with Mr. Delalic in Konjic.

6 Q. Mr. Ciso, in 1992, did you ever see Mr.

7 Zejnil Delalic?

8 A. In 1992, I saw Mr. Zejnil Delalic after he

9 had returned from the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in

10 Vienna. It was in the premises of the Inda-Bau

11 company.

12 Q. What was the reason of your meeting with him

13 at that point?

14 A. Well, it was simply because I had learned

15 that Zejnil Delalic had arrived and because the

16 situation at that time was such that we had no contacts

17 whatsoever with our families and with our hometown.

18 When we learned that Zejnil Delalic had arrived, we

19 wanted to see him, we wanted to hear the story from our

20 town. We wanted to learn what was happening with the

21 members of our families, our friends and with our

22 hometown in general.

23 Q. In these discussions, what did Zejnil Delalic

24 say about his arrival, did he say that he had come back

25 for good or did he express his intention to go back to

Page 12438

1 Bosnia?

2 A. I know that he said that he had come only for

3 a brief period of time, that he had some obligations to

4 attend to and that he was planning to go back to

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina immediately. He said he belonged

6 there and he also said that he wanted to help as much

7 as possible, so that his country can be liberated.

8 Q. Since you were in Vienna at the time and

9 since you were close with his brothers, do you know

10 whether Zejnil Delalic went back to

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12 A. I learned from Dzemal that after Zejnil

13 arrived, his brother was arrested in Konjic, along with

14 some other colleagues or his brother's colleagues and

15 that there was a very severe negative media campaign

16 against Zejnil at the time, against his going back to

17 Austria. And it was because of these circumstances

18 that he didn't go back.

19 Q. Did you have an occasion to read articles

20 that were published about Zejnil and his departure?

21 A. The only media that could cover that story

22 were Croatian media, Croatian dailies and weeklies

23 which we could buy in Austria. And Zejnil's brother,

24 Vejsil used to send us some newspapers from Zagreb

25 which we couldn't get in Austria. And they were simply

Page 12439

1 aghast about what was happening, what was being written

2 about him. We were shocked at lies that were being

3 told about Mr. Zejnil Delalic.

4 Q. Mr. Ciso, could you remember any of these

5 articles, any of these insinuations against Mr. Zejnil

6 Delalic?

7 A. The most is striking ones that he was a Serb

8 spy. That he was working for the Costa (phoen) former

9 intelligence service in Yugoslavia. That he had been

10 given assignment in Sarajevo that he was supposed to

11 take part in the lifting of the blockade of Sarajevo,

12 but he didn't want to do that because he was actually

13 working with Serbs and things like that.

14 Q. In these articles, the articles that you

15 could read at the time in 1992 or the beginning of

16 1993, did you see any article, any information about

17 the alleged responsibility of Zejnil Delalic for the

18 crimes committed against Serbs, or anything in

19 connection with Celebici?

20 A. No, I heard stories and I read articles about

21 his being a collaborator with Serbs. And also stories

22 that he had released a great number of Serbs from

23 prison and that he was actually working with them and

24 for them.

25 Q. Mr. Ciso, did you personally believe these

Page 12440

1 stories and articles and do you have any information as

2 to whether these articles caused certain negative,

3 brought about certain negative consequences?

4 A. Yes, as I told you, we were really shocked by

5 what was being written about him, all the slanders and

6 lies, simply because, not only did I know Zejnil and

7 his work and his fight for the Republic of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but also because the whole family,

9 my whole family knew that, my friends, my fellow

10 citizens and I don't think that people believed in

11 these stories.

12 Q. Yes, you can finish the sentence.

13 A. But I think it was Mr. Zejnil Delalic who

14 suffered the worst consequences of this media campaign

15 because it is very difficult to fight the media.

16 Q. As a friend of the family, do you know what

17 the reaction of Mr. Zejnil Delalic's family was? How

18 did his brothers and his sister react?

19 A. I already stated that I was very close both

20 with Sefik and Dzemal, Dzemal was dismayed by this

21 attack in the media. At the time Zejnil was not there,

22 he was in Munich. He told me that Zejnil was shocked

23 by him, that he was very depressed by that. He was

24 emotionally shaken by it all. And Dzemal is a citizen

25 of the Republic of Croatia. He has a house on the

Page 12441

1 coast and he said that his family had been threatened,

2 that they had threatened to block his house and they

3 felt very insecure there.

4 Q. Mr. Ciso, this Tribunal has been, for a while

5 now, involved in the events that have been going on in

6 Bosnia in 1992, can you tell me, if somebody is accused

7 of being a Chetnik or a collaborator with the secret

8 services of the former Yugoslavia, would such an

9 accusation be a threat also to his family and to

10 himself?

11 A. The very fact that we were Bosniaks that we

12 were from Konjic made us not feel very secure and I can

13 only imagine for Mr. Delalic, who had been accused of

14 fleeing the town in a Chetnik helicopter and all that,

15 I can only imagine how his family must have felt like.

16 Q. Mr. Ciso, were you an eyewitness -- did you

17 personally know of any initiatives to deny these

18 allegations?

19 A. Dzemal and I talked frequently about ways to

20 respond to all of this, how to respond to the family

21 and how to friends and acquaintances. Dzemal said that

22 maybe he should write to newspapers, those who had

23 published these lies, to deny them. But we believed

24 that this was media machinery of sorts and so we

25 thought that we should find somebody who was

Page 12442

1 professional in this, a journalist or a reporter,

2 somebody who would help us prepare a successful denial

3 of these insinuations and accusations.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,

5 please.

6 JUDGE JAN: Is it relevant that what steps

7 were taken to disabuse that impression? We don't have

8 to go into that. I am sure something must have been

9 done by the family to counteract. We're not

10 interested, really.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What does this support

12 in terms of defending the obligations against? It

13 doesn't.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Some documents produced by

15 the efforts of the family have been presented to this

16 Trial Chamber and the Prosecution has offered them as

17 truthful statements. This witness has helped author

18 some of these documents.

19 JUDGE JAN: He indicated that there were news

20 items appearing in Croatian press painting Mr. Delalic

21 as a Serb agent. It's nobody's case he was a Serb

22 agent.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours, but

24 perhaps this witness can speak to some of the evidence

25 presented by the Prosecution, for instance, the

Page 12443

1 videotape of war in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Maybe he

2 can help us understand how and who put it together,

3 which is why we have called this witness and an

4 additional witness who have helped put together this

5 videotape. I believe that this is relevant because

6 these documents have been talked about quite a bit and

7 it is one of the important pieces of evidence in the

8 Prosecution case.

9 JUDGE JAN: You're probably thinking of

10 expert 116, that videotape.


12 Q. Mr. Ciso, can you please tell me whether you

13 and Dzemal were in contact with Zejnil's brother in

14 Zagreb and whether you took certain steps to deny these

15 propaganda allegations?

16 A. Yes, Dzemal was constantly in touch with his

17 brother who also tried on his own to contact different

18 media outlets in Zagreb in an attempt to deny the

19 charges. He was unsuccessful, though, but he managed

20 to find a journalist from Bosnia-Herzegovina to whom he

21 laid out the situation and who agreed to help to

22 uncover the truth behind this story, and his name was

23 Ekrem Melic.

24 Q. Can you please tell the court what your role

25 was in putting together this material that would

Page 12444

1 counter the propaganda? Did you ever meet with this

2 journalist and where?

3 A. Yes. My role was such that -- that is, after

4 Vejsil found a journalist who agreed to work with us on

5 this story, I went to Zagreb to Vejsil, and I met the

6 journalist. His name is Melic. I explained the

7 situation such as it was, even though he already knew

8 of quite a few of these articles and these slanders. I

9 also told him that there were some videotapes which had

10 been made in Konjic itself in Bosnia and that this

11 material could be used to successfully counter this

12 negative media coverage about Mr. Delalic.

13 Q. In a meeting you had with Mr. Melic in

14 Zagreb, was Mr. Vejsil also there?

15 A. Yes, I already mentioned that the three of us

16 met, Ekrem Melic, Vejsil Delalic and myself.

17 Q. How did the journalist respond to your

18 suggestions?

19 A. The journalist probably wanted to get

20 involved in this story based on his strong interest in

21 it. He asked what kind of material there was there in

22 existence. I told him we had about 20 to 30 videotapes

23 that he should review and that would help him

24 understand the full truth. So I suggested that he use

25 these videotapes in order to put together a successful

Page 12445

1 denial of allegations.

2 Q. After the initial conversation with the

3 journalist, Melic, did you start to gather material

4 relating to the events of 1992 in Konjic?

5 A. Yes. Right there I agreed to give Mr. Melic

6 20 to 30 videotapes which were in Dzemal's possession

7 because he himself had been in Konjic and he was

8 involved in certain activities there. So I suggested

9 that he should help him pick the things that would be

10 the most significant.

11 Q. Was there a time when you showed these

12 videotapes to Mr. Melic?

13 A. Yes. Dzemal and I brought these videotapes

14 some ten days later. We brought them to Zagreb. At

15 first, Dzemal could not go to Zagreb with me, and then

16 we brought 20 to 30 cassettes to Mr. Melic so that he

17 could review them and become acquainted with this

18 material.

19 Q. Did the journalist review these cassettes

20 together with you or did he suggest another way of

21 going about this?

22 A. Melic, after he and Zejnil's brother Vejsil

23 reviewed the videotapes, he told us that there was a

24 very large amount of material, that he was a refugee in

25 Zagreb himself, that he did not have a facility to

Page 12446

1 review everything, put it together, edit it. So he

2 suggested that we bring the cassettes back to Vienna

3 and that we should make a summary of the most important

4 events which had taken place in Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina.

6 Q. My next question to you is whether you did

7 sort of call the material for Mr. Melic and his effort

8 to counter this propaganda?

9 A. Yes. Immediately upon our return to Vienna,

10 Dzemal, Elvir and myself put together one video

11 cassette based on all this material.

12 Q. Excuse me. Just before you go on, who is

13 Elvir, please?

14 A. Elvir is a young man that worked at Inda-Bau,

15 he worked in the office, and Inda-Bau had two video

16 recorders and a monitor and there was enough equipment

17 to use to edit a videotape.

18 Q. Who selected this material? I don't want to

19 lead you.

20 A. It was Dzemal and myself who did that, and we

21 also took into account suggestions of Mr. Melic as to

22 what needed to be included.

23 Q. What was Mr. Melic's task? What was he

24 supposed to do?

25 A. His task was to put together a demanti of

Page 12447

1 sorts, a denial, even by maybe exaggerating certain

2 aspects of Mr. Delalic's activities in order to

3 successfully deny the charges and counter the lies and

4 slanders. He himself told me, "Ciso, it is very

5 difficult to reply to truth by truth in a war."

6 Q. Mr. Ciso, did you at some point turn over

7 this rough cut, if I may call it that, of this cassette

8 which contained excerpts from about 20 to 30 cassettes?

9 A. Yes, we did it the way we thought would work

10 well. We involved a member, a female member of the

11 association. We asked her for her help. We then took

12 this, if I may borrow your term, rough cut to

13 Mr. Melic. He took it and he said that he would review

14 it very carefully and that he would add his own audio

15 comments the way that he saw fit so that they would

16 have the most affect and they would be the most

17 appropriate companion to the images which we had

18 prepared.

19 Q. Very well. I think this may be a good time

20 to stop, but just one more question: When you were

21 engaged in this work, where was Mr. Delalic, Zejnil

22 Delalic?

23 A. While we were involved in putting together

24 this cassette, Mr. Zejnil Delalic was in Munich and he

25 did not know that we were working on this cassette in

Page 12448

1 which we wanted to deny the negative charges against

2 him.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very well. This is the next

4 area, Your Honours. Would this be a good time to break

5 for the day?

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, we have to break;

7 it's 5.30. We will reassemble tomorrow morning at 10

8 a.m.

9 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 5.30 p.m.

10 to be reconvened on Friday, the 29th day of

11 May, 1998 at 10.00 a.m.