1 --- Thursday, June 4, 1998

2 --- Upon commencing at 10.00 a.m.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

4 gentlemen. Have the appearances, please.

5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, please, my name

6 is Niemann. I appear with my colleagues, Ms. McHenry,

7 Mr. Turone and Mr. Huber, for the Prosecution.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Appearances for the

9 Defence, please.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I

11 am Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil

12 Delalic. Mr. Delalic is also represented by my

13 colleague, Eugene O'Sullivan, professor from Canada.

14 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I am

15 Mr. Olujic, defence counsel for Mr. Mucic, along with

16 my colleague, Niko Duric, attorney from Croatia.

17 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I

18 am Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, defence

19 counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic. Thank you.

20 MS. BOLER: Good morning, Your Honours. I am

21 Nancy Boler. I represent Esad Landzo, I am from

22 Houston, Texas. With me today is Ken Lindsey, also

23 from Houston, Texas, who is now the legal assistant for

24 our Defence team. Cynthia McMurrey will not be in the

25 courtroom today. She is busy with other Defence

1 matters.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the

3 witness.

4 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, before the

5 witness comes in, may I raise a matter. It relates to

6 the provision of the witness list for the witnesses of

7 Mr. Delalic. Our witness list has only got three names

8 on it at the moment, and we have written to the Defence

9 for Mr. Delalic. We assume that these three witnesses

10 will be expired by Friday, and we don't think they will

11 take any longer than that.

12 I understand that --

13 JUDGE JAN: I hope they don't expire.

14 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps that's -- we'll

15 complete them. Your Honours, I understand that an

16 appeal is being lodged, that that shouldn't interfere

17 with Your Honours orders, as far as I understand it,

18 and that Your Honours orders will apply at least up and

19 until any decision to the contrary is made. We depend

20 very heavily, Your Honours, on these lists to prepare

21 ourselves for cross-examination and, we can only assume

22 that there is going to be a further batch of witnesses

23 next Monday, that will start next Monday and run

24 through.

25 We don't know who they are, and we don't seem

1 to be able to persuade the Defence for Mr. Delalic to

2 give us the list, and we would ask Your Honours to

3 encourage them to do so.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: As far as the Trial

5 Chamber is concerned, we tend to carry on through next

6 week with the list you have, because I think we had

7 sufficient time within which to get these witnesses

8 here. I will make provision for that, on being

9 examined and cross-examined. If you received the

10 Notice of Appeal --

11 MR. NIEMANN: We don't, you see. Your Honour

12 gets the full list, but we don't. They only give us

13 the lists of the witnesses they have called in the next

14 seven days, so our list has only got three names on it,

15 ending with Mr. Milic, and there it ends. And they

16 won't give it to us unless --

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Until they are sure they

18 are calling the witness.

19 MR. NIEMANN: That's somewhat a disadvantage

20 to us, Your Honour, because the position at the moment

21 is that they are simply not going to call any

22 witnesses, as I understand, next week, but if they do

23 comply with Your Honours orders, which we must assume

24 they will do, by Monday they will commence to call

25 witnesses, and we won't know who they were and we will

1 have had no time to prepare.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose they will

3 comply.

4 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, I suspect they'll comply,

5 and therefore, I ask Your Honour to encourage them to

6 comply with the other order, and that is to give us the

7 matters. Your Honours have already got the list of

8 witnesses. We don't have them.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. Can we have

10 the witness.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I just must say,

12 before I call the witness, that the Defence, regardless

13 of all the efforts that it is making, is not going to

14 be able to call the witnesses that were called for the

15 22nd. They are professionally engaged. They are not

16 in Bosnia. They are only coming back on 20th July.

17 They are all archive specialists, and the only way that

18 I can see out is to issue a subpoena for their

19 presence. So it is not in our power to get them here

20 before the 20th of July.

21 This is what we were trying to --

22 JUDGE JAN: July or June? Are you talking

23 about July or June 22nd?

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: June.

25 JUDGE JAN: You've been using the word

1 "July".

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: They are very similar words,

3 so sometimes it may be misinterpreted. We have --

4 regardless of all the efforts that we've been making,

5 we cannot bring them. We brought witnesses from

6 Austria, from Germany, everybody that we could get, and

7 there are people who have professional obligations in

8 the US So we really cannot do that. They are coming

9 back on the 17th or 18th.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is not an issue

11 before us now. We've already rejected your application

12 and made an order. So that is not an issue here. Will

13 you kindly lead your witness.

14 MR. NIEMANN: I'm sorry, Your Honour, to

15 interrupt. It's no help for us to tell us that they

16 can't get them here. Your Honour has made an order and

17 they really do need to tell us. There is no reason why

18 they shouldn't tell us. I mean, they know who they

19 are. There is no secret about who they are. So I do

20 -- I will file something, if necessary, which I'll

21 proceed to do today, seeking a direct order from Your

22 Honours to compel them to comply. Thank you.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay -- they are

24 disobeying the order. Carry on with your witness.

25 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

1 are still under oath.

2 WITNESS: MUSTAFA POLUTAK

3 MS. RESIDOVIC:

4 Q. Good morning, General.

5 A. Good morning.

6 Q. Have you been able to rest from yesterday?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. General, yesterday it happened that the

9 question and answer overlapped and the interpreters

10 were unable to fully interpret everything that I asked

11 and everything that you answered. So again let me

12 remind you, please wait for the entire question to be

13 asked, and only then, after it's been interpreted,

14 answer it.

15 Is that clear, sir?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. General, you will recall that yesterday,

18 before the afternoon recess, we talked about the

19 appointment of Mr. Zejnil Delalic dated 27 July 1992.

20 Do you recall this?

21 A. Yes, I do recall it.

22 Q. You also recall that you said that this

23 appointment was vague and unimplementable. General,

24 can you tell me, in a situation when a similar kind of

25 order would appear, would the authorities, who are

1 responsible for certain duties of this kind, correct

2 these mistakes, and did this also happen in 1992, that

3 they would do this?

4 A. Yes. At any rate, when any kind of mistake

5 would be identified in any kind of document or order,

6 and this would be an obstacle to its implementation, it

7 would immediately be corrected. In other words,

8 another order would be issued which would cancel the

9 previous order, or the parts of those -- that previous

10 order which were vague or unclear.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: I would now like to request

12 that the General be shown the Exhibit D146/1.

13 Q. General, do you have in front of you the

14 order for disposition of 8 August 1992 issued by the

15 President of Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

16 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic?

17 A. Yes, I do have that order in front of me.

18 Q. General, if you have the English version of

19 this order, to please place it on the ELMO.

20 General, can you please tell me from this

21 order for disposition, paragraph 1, it states that

22 Zejnil Delalic is assigned to commander of Tactical

23 Group?

24 A. Yes, you can clearly see from this order that

25 Zejnil Delalic is being appointed to the formation post

1 of commander of Tactical Group.

2 Q. General, will you now please look at

3 paragraph 2 of this order for disposition. Can you

4 please read it and explain what it means to you.

5 A. Yes, I can. According to wartime formation

6 of the competent commanders -- (no translation)

7 THE INTERPRETER: Hold on. May the witness

8 please repeat the answer.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC:

10 Q. Yes, the interpretation stops. Let me ask

11 you to repeat the answer. Just reread paragraph 2. It

12 has not been read. And for the sake of the

13 interpreters, please do it slowly.

14 A. Yes, I understand. "According to the wartime

15 formation, the authorised heads of units and

16 headquarters, which had been anticipated in this order,

17 will cancel all their previous orders of disposition

18 and appointment of officers, which are included in this

19 order."

20 Q. Thank you. General, if formally an order --

21 the order of 27 July is existed, has it been made null

22 and void, that is cancelled by this order?

23 A. Obviously, that is the case, because in the

24 order of 27th, Zejnil Delalic is also mentioned, as

25 well as the Tactical Group, and we already commented on

1 this order. I am certain that the responsible persons

2 did see the mistake in that order, and that they

3 responded as fast as they could in order to correct the

4 error and, as a result, this order was written which

5 cancels the previous order.

6 Q. Thank you, General. Before this Tribunal you

7 testified that you were appointed commander of Tactical

8 Group 1 on 12 May 1992. You also testified that your

9 deputy, that is your chief of staff, was Sucro Pilica.

10 General, could you personally appoint your own chief of

11 staff?

12 A. No, I did not have such authority, and I

13 could not appoint -- I could not appoint chief of staff

14 of the Tactical Group.

15 Q. Who could appoint chief of staff in the

16 Tactical Group?

17 A. The chief of staff could have been appointed

18 the chief of staff of the supreme command or a person

19 whom he authorised.

20 Q. I would now like to request that the next

21 document be marked, be given to the witness, and I have

22 a sufficient number of copies for the court.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Defence document D183/1.

24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC:

1 Q. General, is this person, Sucro Pilica, the

2 person who was appointed as your deputy in the Tactical

3 Group 1?

4 A. Yes. This is Sucro Pilica, who was chief of

5 staff of the Tactical Group 1.

6 Q. General, I am not going to try to introduce

7 this document into evidence through you, but I would

8 like to ask whether you can say, is -- at the top of

9 this document is there a title "forward command post",

10 that is the section of the main staff which was in

11 Visoko?

12 A. Yes, that is what is indicated here. It is

13 the forward section of the supreme command staff which

14 was operating in Visoko.

15 Q. General, is this a part of the main staff to

16 which you transferred after you turned over your duty

17 in the Tactical Group to Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

18 A. Yes, that is the staff that you are referring

19 to.

20 Q. General, do you know that this forward

21 command post of the main staff was authorised by the

22 main staff in Sarajevo to conduct certain affairs on

23 behalf of the main staff?

24 A. Yes. The supreme staff did transfer certain

25 authority to its forward post, which was active in

1 Visoko. Among others, the commander of this part of

2 the staff, Mr. Rasim Delic, is now commander of the

3 joint armed forces of the federation of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, did receive such authority and

5 acted accordingly.

6 Q. So, General, you yourself could not, on your

7 own, appoint your deputy, but, General, as the

8 commander of the Tactical Group, were you able to

9 appoint members of your staff, of your command?

10 A. No. The members of the command of the

11 Tactical Group were appointed by the members of the

12 supreme command staff, and this is what you can see in

13 this document where, beside the deputy, the chief of

14 staff, assistant officer for logistics, Mustafa Gagula

15 was also appointed.

16 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Excuse me, there is a

17 problem with the transcript, on page 9. It says

18 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. I believe the witness said

19 Mr. Rasim Delic.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's correct. It

21 should be corrected. That's correct. It's an error in

22 translation. Or interpretation, I would say.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, it is Rasim Delic.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it's in the

25 interpretation. Rasim Delic did not appear on the

1 document.

2 MR. O'SULLIVAN: To be of assistance, it's

3 Rasim, R-A-S-I-M.

4 A. Rasim Delic, who is the current commander of

5 the joint armed forces of the federation of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC:

8 Q. May the General now please be shown the

9 Prosecution exhibit number 193?

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't know where all

11 of this is leading to, what this is leading to. Does

12 Council hear me? I don't know what all of this is

13 leading to.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: We are trying to determine

15 the authorities and responsibilities of commander of

16 Tactical Group. The Prosecution has offered a document

17 of which I am trying to show the witness now, which

18 allegedly talks about Mr. Delalic's authorities and

19 time within which he did that.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- evidence on this,

21 three earlier witnesses, on the authority of the

22 Tactical Group commander. And the Prosecution,

23 actually, did -- that is not enough. All the witnesses

24 who are members of the army to come and tell everyone

25 coming to say the same thing. It's not sufficient.

1 That's not the way to lead evidence. You've had enough

2 of the authority of the commander of the Tactical

3 Group, what it can do, what it cannot do. They have

4 said several times.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we have heard

6 certain things, for example, on the expert, but this is

7 a commander, and nobody can explain that better to the

8 Chamber who is only interested in truth. Nobody can

9 tell us more about the authorities of the commander of

10 Tactical Group back in 1992, and the previous two

11 documents shown have not been shown to any other

12 witness. This one was shown by the Prosecution, that

13 is true.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The last witness was

15 called on the ground that he worked with the Tactical

16 Group 1 commander. That was one of the grounds. He

17 was chief of staff. He knew of the powers, exercise of

18 authority of that officer. What type of evidence is

19 that?

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, this is the

21 essence of the indictment. I asked my client, we have

22 eliminated many questions, we are not talking about the

23 war or the siege and conditions, we are only dealing

24 with the authorities. And this is the only burden of

25 proof of indictments against my witness -- sorry,

1 against my client.

2 JUDGE JAN: This is a document by which

3 Delalic made a lot -- number of appointments and you

4 want to show that he was not competent to do so.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, Your Honours, I would

6 wish this witness would testify to that because at the

7 time of the issue of this order, he was still a

8 commander.

9 JUDGE JAN: This is what you wanted this

10 witness to say.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: But I cannot say that. This

12 can only be told to you by this witness, if he knows

13 that, because I am not before this Court as a witness.

14 Q. General, I suppose you've never seen this

15 document before?

16 JUDGE JAN: How could he see it, he was not

17 there then.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, I just said that. I

19 presume he has never seen it. I would only be

20 interested if this witness could look at the date of

21 issue of this order or this document.

22 Q. When has this document been issued, General?

23 A. It states the 18th of July, 1992.

24 Q. Can you tell this Chamber who was TG-1

25 commander at the time?

1 A. I have already said that, it was myself. And

2 from what I can see here, this document recalls the

3 order of the July 11th, 1992, which we have also

4 commented yesterday and we determined that this order

5 had never been implemented.

6 When I was a TG commander at that time, no

7 one else could write an order on my behalf, that is as

8 a TG-1 commander. Whilst here I see a number of

9 people, and I have said specifically how many people

10 counted in the command of the tactical group and,

11 according to this document, I don't think this would be

12 the true state shown on the document. I have also

13 never seen it. I did not know of its existence. It

14 could be possible this has been even falsified.

15 JUDGE JAN: Just one minute. I just don't

16 understand one thing. In this document, which is much

17 earlier, 18th of July, I think. He described himself

18 as a TG commander. According to this witness, he took

19 over as a TG commander on the 29th of July, so how

20 could Delalic describe himself as a tactical commander

21 much before the order with regard to the appointment

22 was received in Konjic? I just don't understand that.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we are trying

24 to prove that Delalic never wrote this. This

25 Prosecution claims the existence of this document

1 because Delalic has no clue of the existence of it.

2 That's why I needed this witness to testify that he was

3 a commander then and there was no chance that somebody

4 be in his position.

5 For that reason, it was necessary to prove

6 that because we have all sorts of documents during the

7 war. And this witness, who knows this from his

8 personal experience, can testify here, which he did

9 yesterday.

10 JUDGE JAN: But was this document found in

11 papers recovered from INDA-BAU?

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: No. This is an inauthentic

13 document, but the Prosecution has shown it to at least

14 ten witnesses.

15 JUDGE JAN: Just carry on.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: And we believe that this is

17 not an authentic document.

18 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Before we carry on, further

19 point in the transcript, page 11, line 21. I believe

20 my learned college, Ms. Residovic, asked for

21 Prosecution Exhibit 193 and the transcript says 123.

22 For the sake of clarity, could we say 193, please.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. May this document

24 be returned to the file. I have asked the questions

25 that I intended to.

1 Q. General, you have spoken yesterday about the

2 attempts you made to lift the siege and we also had

3 units from Konjic participating, can you tell us what

4 was the first time when units from Konjic were

5 subordinated to your command?

6 A. For the first time, Konjic units were

7 subordinated to TG-1 on June 12th, 1992.

8 Q. Do you know who issued an order about the

9 subordination of those units to you in Pazaric?

10 A. A written order was written by the main staff

11 of the supreme command for all the units participating

12 in the operation and, specifically, the order for that

13 particular unit to be transferred from the municipal

14 staff of Konjic was issued by the municipal staff

15 commander in Konjic at that time, Ramic Esad.

16 Q. General, at the time of subordination of that

17 unit to you, did you have any knowledge that Mr.

18 Delalic had any military or command function in

19 Konjic?

20 A. No, I do not know of that. I do not have

21 knowledge of Delalic's function in Konjic at that time

22 or any other place.

23 Q. Did you know at that time that the war

24 presidency appointed him coordinator?

25 A. Personally, no, but --

1 JUDGE JAN: But how is he concerned with

2 that?

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: He have knowledge of Gajret

4 who could possibly know whether Zejnil Delalic has any

5 tasks or functions connected to that unit and that's

6 what I wanted to ask of him.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Please go ahead.

8 A. I said I did have some knowledge as concerns

9 logistical support of that unit from the municipal

10 staff of Konjic, Mr. Delalic helped in the supply and I

11 know that this was the best equipped unit which came to

12 Tactical Group 1 at that time, so he helped in the

13 equipping of this unit.

14 Q. General, you have mentioned yesterday that at

15 instances you would transmit the supreme command's

16 orders to other staffs and commanders. Can you tell

17 us, during 1992, was this a common practice for

18 commanders who were outside of the city under siege to

19 be used to transmit orders of the main staff?

20 A. Yes, this was common practice. And myself as

21 a TG commander was in a position to transmit orders of

22 the supreme command staff to other commanders.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: I would now ask that this

24 witness be shown documents D-145, Annex 5/41, page 113

25 and D-145, Annex 5 D-45, page 818. Could you please

1 take the order dated 24th August and put the English

2 version on the ELMO.

3 JUDGE JAN: You obtained the opinion of the

4 expert and other witnesses on this document. Would the

5 opinion of this witness further strengthen your case on

6 that?

7 He was not directly concerned with this

8 order. He had said that the supreme command being

9 posted in the places under siege, thought whatever

10 means were convenient to convey messages to other

11 commanders, would his opinion further strengthen your

12 opinion in that?

13 We have the opinion of the military expert on

14 this, you even asked Mr. Asim, the last witness on,

15 this, why do you keep on repeating? I just don't

16 understand. He's not directly concerned with this

17 document. If he had been directly concerned, you're

18 quite justified in questioning him with regard to this

19 document. He's not directly concerned. Is what my

20 learned friend Gosimer is telling you, don't duplicate,

21 don't triplicate, don't quadruplicate the same

22 evidence, particularly when it relates to a matter of

23 opinion, essentially.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: If Your Honours find this

25 fact clarified enough --

1 JUDGE JAN: He's going to say exactly the

2 same as the other witnesses have said. How does it

3 help your case?

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The number of witnesses

5 do not clarify a thing. It doesn't how many witnesses

6 you call, if it's matters of skill, it remains of

7 skill. There are issues which counsel will refer to in

8 submissions on the last date. We really do not require

9 extra evidence, other than what you already have on the

10 record.

11 JUDGE JAN: It's not the number of witnesses

12 which prove a point, it's the quality of evidence. If

13 he had been directly concerned with this document, you

14 are quite justified in asking him. But he's not

15 personally concerned with this document. You are

16 mainly asking him his opinion.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, having in mind

18 the Prosecution asked opinion on one of the same

19 documents several times, I tried to do the same. But

20 since you are telling me that this is the third time

21 we're dealing with this document, then maybe this

22 witness shouldn't give his opinion on these documents

23 as well. But I still, nevertheless, think that his

24 opinion may have an influence on the evidence. This is

25 the only witness who could give us a point of view of a

1 commander of a tactical group. Thank you very much.

2 Q. General, connected with the things you have

3 mentioned about the practice during the war, in the

4 transmission of the supreme command orders, would you

5 at that time rely on, or refer to, the authority given

6 to you by the supreme command to transmit such orders?

7 A. Yes, this is common practice with

8 transmission of orders, to refer to the order of the

9 command that issued it. Instances where this was not

10 done, the original copy of the order would then be sent

11 out.

12 Q. Thank you very much. I apologise, but I am

13 trying to follow your directions, Your Honour, so I

14 will try to skip over some questions that may have been

15 answered by some other witnesses.

16 General, yesterday you said that as a TG

17 commander, you did not have authority over

18 institutions, in your personal knowledge and

19 experience, did at any given moment, Tactical Group 1

20 had been given or took over had the authority of

21 district staffs of that area?

22 A. No, TG had never had any authority, including

23 the territorial powers in the area, but only over those

24 units which were subordinated to us for a specific

25 combat task.

1 Q. General, whilst you were the commander and

2 later, according to your knowledge as a member of the

3 forward command post of Visoko, did tactical group have

4 any authorities of the corps?

5 A. No, we had no authority of that type. This

6 was exclusively a combat group, not even an unit. And

7 we did not have any special authority, apart from the

8 one to perform the task given and that is to try to

9 lift the siege of Sarajevo in the area mentioned

10 aforehand.

11 Q. Did you, General, during your command of a

12 tactical group and later on as a member of staff of a

13 member of command of the forward command post, did you

14 ever gain knowledge of an existence of a prison or

15 punishments of military personnel within the area of

16 the Municipality of Konjic?

17 A. No, something of the sort has never been

18 under the authority of the tactical group, including me

19 as a commander.

20 Q. Did you as a commander of tactical group and

21 a member of the forward command post of Visoko ever

22 give certain authorities to a commander of a tactical

23 group referring to the prison of Celebici or concerning

24 the punishment of people in that prison facility?

25 A. No.

1 JUDGE JAN: May I ask a question? General,

2 you were TG commander 1 and you went to the formations,

3 did you take any prisoners yourself, your units?

4 THE WITNESS: No, tactical group never had

5 any prisons and it did not have any type of a

6 collection centre or staff building or anything

7 connected to that.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel should turn off

9 their microphone while conferring.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC:

11 Q. Concerning your testimony about you

12 transmitting orders to certain municipal staffs, can

13 you tell us if that particular task of transmitting

14 orders at the same time gave you any authority over

15 those municipal staffs?

16 A. No, they had not given me any authority, this

17 was just my obligation to transmit orders and I had no

18 further authority as a TG commander.

19 Q. Your testifying yesterday, you have said that

20 and you repeated even today, that final orders of which

21 units are to be subordinated to you were issued by

22 heads of municipal staffs. In addition to the man

23 power to be subordinated to you, did commanders of

24 municipal staffs, following the order of the main

25 staff, have any other obligations, for example, to

1 provide those units with logistics and equipment or

2 information or intelligence, rather?

3 A. Tactical group did not have separate

4 logistics elements in its formations. And this was one

5 of the tasks of the Territorial Defence. The units

6 which would be subordinated to the tactical group

7 needed to be equipped by the TO for the forthcoming

8 operation. Also, the tactical group was also obliged

9 to forward any reconnaissance or intelligence

10 information within their area to give for use. The TO

11 was obliged to give such information to the tactical

12 group, I apologise.

13 Q. These information by the enemy, were they

14 important for the conduct of the task before the TG?

15 A. Any soldier can tell you that this is the

16 crucial part, the most important one.

17 Q. As a commander of tactical group, could you

18 in that light ask of them to forward to you anything

19 connected to such information?

20 A. This was necessary due to a lack of

21 reconnaissance within the tactical group, so we had to

22 rely on the units of the TO for that.

23 Q. I would now ask the witness be shown the

24 exhibit for the Prosecution. Just a moment until I

25 find its designation. 224. Could you place the

1 English version on the ELMO, please. I presume,

2 General, that you have not seen this document?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Does such an order issued by the commander of

5 a TG stem out of his right to gather intelligence for

6 the purpose of the conduct of his task?

7 A. I know that TO staffs, according to a

8 directive from the main staff, had an obligation to

9 perform this duty of providing intelligence to the

10 tactical group concerning the enemy situation.

11 Q. Could you now take a look of the paragraph 6

12 of this order. I will now ask you a hypothetical

13 question. Had you written this order, using this

14 formulation of the responsibility of the municipal

15 staff commanders to provide you with information, would

16 it have been possible for you to punish a municipal

17 staff commander for not meeting this requirement?

18 A. No, I have said that municipal staffs, with

19 their commanders, are obliged to provide information on

20 the enemy to the tactical group. I suppose that this

21 task was not done properly. They did not provide

22 information on time and those informations were not

23 valid and that the then commander of the tactical group

24 was forced to warn them of that, reminding them of

25 their obligation to meet their duties.

1 No authority concerning command or superior

2 authority, including punishment, tactical commander

3 group cannot be the person to command or punish

4 commanders of municipal staffs. The only thing that he

5 can do is to report the main staff of the supreme

6 command about the commanders of municipal staffs not

7 meeting the requirement. And all the measures to be

8 taken fall under the authority of the supreme command

9 staff or the superior command.

10 Q. General, the Court has heard from several

11 witnesses what were the logistics problem in the army

12 and in which way the materiel was acquired. Do you

13 personally know that both the military and civilian

14 authorities did authorise persons to provide a certain

15 equipment or other means necessary for the defence?

16 A. Yes. This was one of the main sources of the

17 logistics of all our formations. Taking into account

18 the situation in which we found ourselves in the

19 Territorial Defence, that is in our armed forces, and

20 in our -- in the overall structure of our society,

21 anyone who could in any way contribute and assist the

22 population and defence, and who was engaged in that,

23 did receive authority from the -- the competent

24 authorities in order to engage in such activities.

25 Q. General, if you were in a situation to give

1 authority to either a business person or another

2 civilian to acquire certain materiel, did such person

3 acquire a status of a military person?

4 A. No.

5 Q. May the witness please be shown the document

6 D145-9/7. It's page 993, which the Prosecutor

7 yesterday showed another witness.

8 Will you also place the English version on

9 the ELMO, sir. I believe that the English version is

10 already on the ELMO. This is a Power of Attorney to

11 Zejnil Delalic, signed by Minister Jerko Doko for

12 acquisition of materiel dated 9 May 1992. Is this what

13 you see in front of you?

14 A. Yes, that is -- even though the body of text

15 is barely legible, but I can see Jerko Doko's signature

16 at the bottom, and I also do see the date of 9 May

17 1992.

18 Q. General, is this one of the usual powers --

19 Power of Attorneys, they had different forms, but the

20 essence is the same, it empowers somebody to acquire

21 certain materiel for the needs of defence?

22 A. Yes. This is one of the usual documents in

23 this particular case issued by the Minister of Defence,

24 Mr. Jerko Doko.

25 Q. With this respect I have a question, that

1 this power also gives this person any military

2 authority?

3 A. This authorisation does not give any

4 authorities with respect to the military service. The

5 person is only authorised to acquire and procure and

6 bring these means to the persons or institutions who

7 had authorised them to do so.

8 Q. General, when during 1992 did you meet

9 Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

10 A. I met Zejnil Delalic for the first time

11 during the preparation for the first lifting --

12 attempted lifting of the siege of Sarajevo, when I was

13 looking for support in materiel for this operation.

14 And it was at that time that we first met and became

15 acquainted.

16 Q. General, you have testified before the

17 Tribunal that as commander of Tactical Group you

18 visited the different municipalities and in order to

19 see what units were available for the Tactical Group.

20 Can you tell me, do you know from your personal

21 experience whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic was commander of

22 the municipal staff in Konjic during this period?

23 A. It is absolutely correct, that while I was

24 commander of the Tactical Group, Zejnil Delalic was not

25 commander of the municipal staff -- of the Territorial

1 Defence of Konjic, and I know that he was not that

2 later either.

3 Q. General, did Defence for Mr. Zejnil Delalic

4 in May, 1996, come in touch with you, at this time you

5 were commander of the fourth corps of the BiH army, to

6 provide information whether Zejnil Delalic was

7 commander or a member of the municipal staff of the TO

8 Konjic?

9 A. Yes, I was contacted by the Defence with

10 these request and I responded to that request. In

11 other words, I gave to the Defence what it asked for

12 and what I had authority to give.

13 Q. May the General now please be shown

14 D144-5-A/27, page number 504. This is in Volume 2 of

15 the military expert's report.

16 May the English text also be placed on the

17 ELMO.

18 General, is this document-- did you or person

19 authorised by you, issue it to the Defence on 22 May

20 1996?

21 A. Yes, this is one of the documents which I

22 issued, at the request of the Defence.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Since the witness confirmed

24 that this is a document issued by the fourth corps

25 command, at the request of the Defence, I offer it into

1 evidence. Has it been accepted?

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What do you want to do

3 with it? He gave the certificate.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ask him whether he gave

6 the certificate.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, I did. I only asked

8 that this certificate be added to the testimony as a

9 corroboration of the testimony, and this would then

10 conclude my questioning of this witness.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: All right. Okay.

12 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone turned off) It's

13 nice of you to admit it-- --

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's admitted. Let it

15 come in. He's satisfied, because he's here in person.

16 I don't know what is stronger than him being here.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I think it was

18 at least five times I was told that, in order to have

19 it introduced, that I had to have it authenticated by

20 the witness. I was following your instructions. And

21 this happened at least five times before.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am satisfied it is

23 saying the thing he certified. I don't think there's

24 anything stronger than his being here in person.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

1 This concludes my examination of this witness.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

3 Have we any cross-examination of the defence?

4 Mr. Olujic, it is your witness now.

5 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

6 I, with your permission, I have very few questions.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Olujic

8 Q. Good morning, General.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. I am Zeljko Olujic, defence counsel for

11 Mr. Zdravko Mucic. After the exhaustive examination of

12 my learned colleague, I only have a couple of questions

13 for you, a couple of comments that is.

14 You are a professional officer who was

15 trained in military academies. I believe that we will

16 conclude this discussion very quickly.

17 General, if I told you that in the former

18 country, SFRY, and in the former Republic -- socialist

19 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina the administration of

20 prisons was entirely under the jurisdiction of the

21 Ministry of Justice, would you agree with that?

22 A. Yes, I would agree with that.

23 Q. Thank you. General, if I submitted to you

24 that the former army did not have military prisons, but

25 people were serving their sentences in regular prisons

1 which were under the authority of the Ministry of

2 Justice, would you also agree with me on that; in other

3 words, that it only had detention facilities where

4 people were staying for infractions which carried a

5 sentence of up to 30 days. Would you agree with me?

6 A. Yes, I would.

7 MR. OLUJIC: General, I have no further

8 questions. Thank you very much.

9 Your Honours, this concludes my

10 cross-examination.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed,

12 please, Mr. Karabdic.

13 MR. KARABDIC: Thank you. With your

14 permission, I will ask a couple of questions.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Karabdic

16 Q. General, a moment ago, when asked by my

17 learned colleague, Ms. Residovic, you said that as

18 commander of the Tactical Group you did not have the

19 authority to appoint your own chief of staff or other

20 members of your command. Was that your testimony, sir?

21 A. Yes, I said that I did not appoint, nor did I

22 have authority to appoint either the chief of staff or

23 any other member of command of the Tactical Group.

24 Q. Did this concern you only as a commander of

25 the Tactical Group or was this a General rule? In

1 other words, was it a rule that commanders at any level

2 could not appoint either his chief of staff or other

3 members of the command, but rather that these should be

4 appointed by the same body which had appointed the

5 commander himself?

6 A. In the law on defence, and in the service in

7 the armed forces, this has been regulated, that is

8 those issues have been regulated, and it is clear at

9 which level of command appointments are made, so which

10 commanders or which commanding officers can appoint

11 other commanding officers in other units. And, as a

12 rule, commander of the units cannot appoint subordinate

13 commanders within its own unit.

14 Q. And in the rules it also -- the rules also

15 stipulate that the commander cannot appoint his own

16 deputy?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. Further on you answered, when asked by my

19 learned colleague, that as commander of the Tactical

20 Group you did not have the right to punish your -- of

21 your subordinates, that is, the other persons who were

22 under your command in the Tactical Group. Is that what

23 you said?

24 A. If I did not, I will state it now. I did not

25 have the right to punish, because this was a temporary

1 formation which was put together only to carry out

2 certain combat tasks. If somebody did violate any

3 rules, I would compile a report on it and send it to

4 his home unit, and this unit was then in charge of

5 prosecuting him, if necessary.

6 Q. Did I understand you correctly, that this

7 rule only applies to Tactical Groups, because they are

8 temporary formations?

9 A. Yes, that is correct. It is only for the

10 Tactical Groups, because it is a temporary formation.

11 Otherwise, other commanders of other units do have

12 authority to punish their own subordinates.

13 Q. Who has the right to punish?

14 A. The exclusive right to punish lies with

15 commanders.

16 Q. Do the members of staff or their deputies

17 have the right to punish?

18 A. No, they do not have the right, unless they

19 were authorised to do so specially. In other words, if

20 they were given specific authority in that regard.

21 MR. KARABDIC: Thank you. This concludes my

22 cross-examination. Thank you, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

24 Cross-examination?

25 MS. BOLER: (Microphone not on) Your Honours,

1 there will be no cross-examination for the Defence of

2 Esad Landzo.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

4 From the Prosecution.

5 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honours.

6 Yes, there will be cross-examination from the

7 Prosecution. Thank you.

8 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry

9 Q. Good morning, sir. My name is Teresa

10 McHenry, and I am going to ask you some questions. If

11 you don't understand a question, please tell me. I am

12 also going to ask a number of questions that only

13 require a "yes" or "no" answer, and where you can

14 fairly do so, in order that we can move quickly, I ask

15 that you just answer "yes" or "no". Okay?

16 A. Good morning. And, yes, if everything is

17 clear. If it is not clear, then, unfortunately, we

18 won't be able to do it that way.

19 Q. Fair enough. Now, sir, you indicated that

20 when the war started your first task was to organise

21 and lead the TO in Kiseljak, Busovaca, Kresevo and

22 Fojnica. Do you remember that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you a member of the supreme command at

25 that time?

1 A. No.

2 Q. And what was your title, your position as the

3 organiser and leader of the TO?

4 A. Commander of the TO in that area.

5 Q. And how many municipalities does that

6 encompass?

7 A. Four municipalities.

8 Q. Now, your appointment as commander of

9 Tactical Group 1, was that in writing or done orally?

10 A. I first received the oral appointment, and

11 there is also an order in the supreme command staff

12 with respect to this appointment.

13 Q. When did you receive your oral appointment,

14 and when was the written appointment made?

15 A. Orally, I was informed of 12 May, and I

16 believe that the order was also written down at that

17 time, but, to be honest with you, I never saw it.

18 Q. Okay. And when you were given this

19 assignment orally, were you told what your geographic

20 zone of operation was?

21 A. I did not have a geographic zone of

22 responsibility, nor any other territorial zone. I

23 pointed out that I had a direction through which I was

24 supposed to try to lift the siege of Sarajevo, together

25 with all the others who were engaged in that effort.

1 Q. And were you told the direction, what would

2 your zone of operation be?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, sir, you stated that you had seven

5 positions on your staff, and that Mr. Delalic had those

6 same seven positions when he became commander of

7 Tactical Group 1. Do you remember that?

8 A. I believe that it was the same staff of the

9 Tactical Group, because I know -- from what I recall,

10 there was no change indicated on the part of the

11 supreme command staff regarding the Tactical Group

12 staff.

13 Q. Okay. And you indicated that you, in

14 addition to Mr. Pilica and Mr. -- the deputy commander

15 of logistics, Mr. Gagula, who were the other members of

16 your staff?

17 A. You mean by names?

18 Q. Yes, sir. All the ones you can remember.

19 A. I will try to come up with some names and

20 last names. Muhamed Turcinovic was the intelligence

21 officer. The operations, that position changed several

22 times. First it was Rekic, and I cannot recall the

23 name of the other one. Amir was the chief of the

24 cabinet, Kazazic was the communications person, and

25 Kiba was a typist, and we mentioned Pilica and Gagula.

1 Q. I'm sorry, who was your security officer?

2 A. There was no security officer.

3 Q. So if that was -- well, let me tell you what

4 was told yesterday, and then you tell me what part is

5 incorrect. Yesterday you indicated that, "While the

6 Tactical Group command was small, while I was on that

7 duty, it had seven members, commander, chief of staff,

8 operations or executive officer, logistics officer,

9 security officer, chief officer, communications person,

10 and the typist." Was that incorrect then? Was there a

11 mistake?

12 A. Not security, but intelligence officer. It

13 may have been a mistake in interpretation. There was

14 never a security officer on the staff.

15 Q. Okay. And you mentioned the typist, the

16 member of the command who served as your typist was

17 Kiba. Do you know the full name of that person?

18 A. Kiba. It's a female name. I do not know her

19 last name. I can't recall it now.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you described the four

21 stage manner in which you would get troops when you

22 were Tactical Group commander, and I am not going to

23 ask you to go over it all again, but part of the

24 process involved you communicating with the supreme

25 command in Sarajevo, and then the supreme command

1 ordering the TO's to provide certain units. And my

2 question is: Who in the supreme command did you

3 communicate with?

4 A. For the most part, with the chief of staff,

5 Mr. Sefer Halilovic. In his absence, with the person

6 who substituted for him.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will now arise and

8 we'll assemble at noon.

9 --- Proceedings recessed at 11.30 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 12.06 p.m.

11 (The witness entered court)

12 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

13 are still under oath.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,

15 please.

16 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honours.

17 Q. Now, sir, you indicated we had been talking

18 about who in the supreme command you dealt with besides

19 Mr. Halilovic, and you indicated that at some point,

20 the forward command post at Visoko had certain

21 authorisations over Tactical Groups, did I understand

22 that correctly?

23 A. Yes. Those are authorisation given to that

24 part of the command by the supreme command.

25 Q. Yes, that's exactly my question. What was

1 the extent of the authorisation given to the Visoko

2 forward command? What were they permitted to do in

3 terms of the Tactical Groups?

4 A. It concerns the authorisations of the forward

5 command post. It referred to giving expert help in

6 planning and preparation of combat activities. And to

7 provide logistical support. These were the two basic

8 functions concerning the authority of the forward

9 command post in relation to the Tactical Group.

10 Q. Did the Tactical Group -- I'm sorry, did the

11 Visoko forward command post have authority to issue

12 orders to the Tactical Group?

13 A. Yes, it did, but it happened only

14 occasionally. Only in cases of the loss of

15 communication with the supreme staff in, supreme

16 command staff in Sarajevo, only in those staffs would

17 they have the similar authority.

18 Q. So, if I understand it, there was sort of a

19 blanket authorisation that when the Tactical Group

20 commanders could not get in touch with Sarajevo, they

21 could just contact Visoko, and Visoko could then issue

22 orders or authorise certain things? Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, it is. But I repeat, it happened seldom

24 that we would lose all communication links.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, let me ask that you be shown

1 Defence Exhibit 183-1. And we can have the English put

2 on the ELMO. It's the hand-written document from Mr.

3 Delic. Sir, so was this a document that was issued

4 during a time when you could not get in contact with

5 Sarajevo?

6 A. I have already said previously that the

7 forward command post did have certain authorisations

8 given to them by the chief of staff of the supreme

9 command. Amongst those were certain authorisations to

10 appoint certain commanders, certain officers to

11 particular duties on the basis of which this

12 appointment order was issued.

13 Q. Okay, let me see if I now understand you

14 correctly, sir. Are you stating that even when you

15 could get in touch with Sarajevo, the Visoko command

16 post had authority to do certain things including

17 issuing appointments?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And did you see the actual authorisation

20 given to the Visoko forward command post? Let me go

21 back. Was it a written authorisation to the Visoko

22 command post?

23 A. Yes. It existed and I also saw that order.

24 Q. Okay. And so it said, am I correct that it

25 said it could provide help. It could provide logistic

1 support and it said it could appoint persons to

2 positions within the Tactical Group, is that correct? I

3 am not sure, I heard you say "yes" in Serbo-

4 Croat, but I did not hear it in English. Could the

5 English interpretation booth tell us if they can

6 communicate with us?

7 THE INTERPRETER: We hear you, but I don't

8 think the witness said anything.

9 JUDGE JAN: The witness nodded his head.

10 Just don't nod your head, say yes or no or any other

11 answer you wish to give.

12 MS. McHENRY:

13 Q. Was your prior answer to my question a "yes",

14 sir?

15 A. The answer to the previous question was

16 "yes".

17 Q. And in addition to those things, was there

18 any other authorisation given to the Visoko command

19 post?

20 A. Yes, depending on the assessment of the main

21 staff of the supreme command in Sarajevo to perform

22 tasks more efficiently, with more speed and then they

23 would authorise for the enhancement or to make the

24 defence system more efficient.

25 Q. So if I understand you correctly, basically

1 it was a fluid situation and in situations where it was

2 more efficient to have Visoko handle a matter, they

3 were authorised to do so? Is that now a fair

4 statement?

5 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, I wish to be put

6 in the transcript that this document was issued by

7 Rasim Delic so that we avoid any possible confusion.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What was the confusion

9 you had in mind? What confusion did you think could

10 have caused? All that was being argued was whether a

11 commander of a group could issue...

12 MR. KARABDIC: The transcript states that the

13 order was issued by Mr. Delic and --

14 JUDGE JAN: Not your client.

15 MR. KARABDIC: I would like it to say Rasim

16 Delic.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He's saying that the

18 transcript appears to attribute that letter to the

19 accused, Hazim Delic, but the signature was Rasim

20 Delic.

21 MS. McHENRY: Yes, and I think the document

22 is part of the record, so I don't think there will

23 be --

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Better correct it,

25 please.

1 MS. McHENRY:

2 Q. Sir, would you like me to repeat my

3 question? Am I correct now that there was, in effect,

4 a fluid situation, so that in circumstances where it

5 was more convenient or efficient for Visoko to handle a

6 matter, they were authorised to do so?

7 A. Forward command post of Visoko has been

8 established for those very needs. That is, to issue

9 direct orders or to command directly to the entire

10 defence system and the TO for the reason of the main

11 staff being unable to be present in the field. They

12 could not take the lead and the command directly over

13 the units, so the purpose of the command post was

14 such. That was the basic reason for its

15 establishment. And, in addition to that, we mentioned

16 some authorisations given to the forward command post

17 to resolve certain problems in a more efficient

18 manner.

19 Q. And just to make sure I understand you, when

20 you say they could not take the lead in the command

21 directly over the units.

22 So the purpose of the command post was such,

23 you're referring to the Sarajevo headquarters could not

24 take the lead and command directly over the units? Am

25 I correct that's who you mean when they you say

1 "they"? You have to say yes, sir, instead of nodding

2 your head.--

3 A. Yes, I meant the main staff of the supreme

4 command that is a part of the staff that was in

5 Sarajevo.

6 Q. When was Rasim Delic in the Visoko command

7 post?

8 A. Was that the question, "When he was there"?

9 Q. Yes, sir.

10 A. Between April 13th or from the April 13th,

11 1992.

12 Q. Until when?

13 A. Until when?

14 Q. Approximately.

15 A. A command post in Visoko was operational

16 until May 1993.

17 Q. Were there other people besides Mr. Rasim

18 Delic in the Visoko command post who were authorised to

19 issue orders or appointments for the Tactical Groups?

20 A. Rasim Delic was the top person and the

21 commander of the forward command post. Of course, he

22 had his team of officers who would help him in his work

23 and they had their own duties and authorities.

24 Q. Okay. Let me then ask you what I believe you

25 have been given Document 183. Now, I note that the

1 document refers to the Tactical Group 1 of Hadzici in

2 that the seal apparently is the seal from the TO

3 headquarters of the Visoko region. Now I assume those

4 are just mistakes, am I correct on those?

5 A. It is not clear to me. Do you mean this

6 document that I have here?

7 Q. Well, I note that it refers to the TG-1 of

8 Hadzici and if I understood you correctly yesterday,

9 that, in fact, is a mistake, it's not the TG-1 of

10 Hadzici, it's just the TG-1, correct?

11 A. No, the mistake was not in that, but the

12 mistake was that I mentioned was that the document

13 stated, "Tactical Group 1, Konjic". So the mistake

14 being the word "Konjic. "

15 Q. Well, sir, is Tactical Group 1 of Hadzici, is

16 that a correct or an incorrect term for the Tactical

17 Group at that time?

18 A. It is incorrect. We should always use the

19 term Tactical Group 1 without any additions.

20 Q. Okay. I am not going to ask you about the

21 seal, because I don't think it that's important. But

22 let me ask you about another issue. Now this document

23 is undated, is that correct?

24 A. Which document?

25 Q. The document in front of you, Document

1 183-1? Is there a date in the Bosnian version?

2 A. There's no date here.

3 Q. Did you see this document in 1992 soon after

4 it was issued?

5 A. I do not remember. I can't say for sure, it

6 may have been possible.

7 Q. Well, sir, I assume you would agree with me

8 that not having a date is a serious problem in knowing

9 when persons were appointed and some might say that it

10 makes this invalid. My question really is, is there a

11 correction made to this document? Was there another

12 document made to correct the mistakes in this one?

13 A. I believe it was done, but I know for certain

14 that both these commanders were in the part of the

15 command from that day on.

16 Q. When you say from that date on, what date are

17 you referring to?

18 A. The 12th of May, 1992.

19 Q. And when you say you believe it was done, do

20 you mean you believe that there was another appointment

21 order made which corrected the serious problems?

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the next

23 question, the next witness is Mr. Sucro, so I don't

24 think the appropriate questions were being asked of

25 this witness.

1 MS. McHENRY: Since it was Ms. Residovic who

2 showed him the document and it does refer to his

3 Tactical Group, I thought it was fair to ask him,

4 obviously, if he doesn't know, he can simply say, "I

5 don't know. "

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He doesn't even remember

7 saying this. He didn't remember seeing it.

8 MS. McHENRY: That's correct.

9 Q. Am I correct, sir, that you don't know if

10 there was another made until after this one, which may

11 have corrected it or altered it in any way?

12 A. The only issue at stake here is the issue of

13 the date, nothing else needed correction. I claim that

14 Mustafa Gagula and Sucro Pilica were members of the

15 command from there on.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He can tell you the date

17 of his appointment.

18 MS. McHENRY: I'll move on, Your Honour.

19 Q. Now, sir, you stated that there were rules

20 saying at what level commanders could appoint their own

21 staff, is that correct?

22 A. Not his own people, the commander could never

23 appoint his own staff. It could only be done by a

24 superior command or commander.

25 Q. And was that true for all levels of staff?

1 In other words, no matter how minor the appointment of

2 the staff member was, a commander did not have

3 authority to appoint someone to that position?

4 A. No, the commander could never appoint his

5 immediate subordinates. This is always done by the

6 next superior command. For example, a troop, the

7 appointments can be made at the lowest level by the

8 commander of the brigade.

9 Q. Okay, now, are you saying that there are

10 rules or regulations in the Bosnian army that provide

11 for this?

12 A. Yes, they have existed and they are still in

13 existence.

14 Q. Now let me ask that you be shown Prosecution

15 Exhibit 230, which is ... And I'll ask that the

16 English be put on the ELMO, please.

17 Q. This is a document from the archives. Now,

18 sir, if I understand you correctly, Mr. Delalic had no

19 authority to make this appointment. Is that correct?

20 A. Such appointments commander can issue only

21 temporarily, until they get the final appointment from

22 the -- from a superior command, in case of an emergency

23 that required a reappointment.

24 Q. So if I understand you correctly, the

25 commander did have authority to appoint his staff on a

1 temporary basis. Is that correct now?

2 A. If this was required by the emergent nature

3 of the situation.

4 Q. And is that in the regulations too, that if

5 it's an emergency, the commander can do it himself?

6 A. Yes, it is regulated by directions and

7 authorities of all commanders at command posts. These

8 are just exceptional cases when this needs to be done

9 because of the current tasks and the needs of it.

10 Q. And would you agree with me that in General,

11 the military rules and regulations are set up to be

12 flexible, and so that when there is a pressing need or

13 emergency, exceptions can be made?

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Apologies. We heard

15 "January" in the interpretation, and I don't think

16 that it appeared. And if I do not understand it, I

17 don't see how the witness could understand it properly.

18 MS. McHENRY: Let me repeat the sentence,

19 since I certainly did not say "January".

20 Q. Now, sir, would you agree with me that in

21 General, not in January, the military rules and

22 regulations were set up to be flexible and allow for

23 exceptions where there was a need?

24 A. The specific nature of the military

25 organisation and operation consists also in -- that in

1 a particular situation such clauses also have to be

2 introduced, and this refers especially to, let's say, a

3 situation of war and combat operation. For instance,

4 if the commander is killed, we know that if you wait

5 for an order of this superior command to issue an order

6 appointing a new commander, this is a very long road.

7 I gave you an example that is pretty drastic,

8 but you use a speedier way. So a commander may be

9 given authority to appoint another commander until a

10 proper order is issued later on.

11 Q. Okay. Now, sir, let me go on then to another

12 subject. Actually, let me just -- speaking of what we

13 were just talking about. You earlier described, and

14 again I am not going to ask you to describe it again,

15 the rather cumbersome procedure by which, when you were

16 head of the Tactical Group, you would get soldiers,

17 which required you reconnaissance, talking to supreme

18 command, the supreme command issuing orders, the TO

19 command issuing orders, et cetera. Now, the cumbersome

20 nature of this procedure, is this why, when the JUG

21 group was created, the JUG group was given the

22 authorisation to itself determine what TO troops would

23 participate in JUG actions?

24 A. As far as the activities of the JUG group are

25 concerned, I am not that familiar with them. As far as

1 I know, a separate command was established there into

2 which Tactical Groups, but also other units, belonged.

3 So this is why a separate command was established for

4 this task, and it existed only as long as the task was

5 still on.

6 Q. Okay. And what Tactical Groups were part of

7 JUG, if you know?

8 A. As far as I know, the Tactical Group 1,

9 groups 1 and 2, took part in this operation, that is in

10 that main area or direction. At the same time the

11 Tactical Group Visoko was also involved in these

12 operations, but they were not under the command of the

13 group JUG.

14 Q. When was Tactical Group 2 created, if you

15 know?

16 A. I said that yesterday. This was on 15 June

17 or in the middle of the month. I believe -- I think it

18 was around the 15th of July.

19 Q. It was before your accident; is that

20 correct? It was while -- it was while you were still

21 commander of Tactical Group 1; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, this was while I was still commander of

23 the Tactical Group 1.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: There is confusion again.

25 There are two dates, of 15 June and 15 July, for the

1 exact same fact.

2 JUDGE JAN: But he used both months, June,

3 July. First he said 15 June, then he said around about

4 the next -- he said 15 July. He has corrected

5 himself.

6 MS. McHENRY:

7 Q. Am I correct that it was 15th of July that

8 you were referring to?

9 A. Yes, that is correct, 15th of July, or the

10 seventh month, if you will.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you testified about

12 when you received certain -- may I have the help of the

13 usher. When you received certain troops from Konjic.

14 I am going to show you a document, and there are extra

15 copies for Counsel and the Judges.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution document 249.

17 Q. Sir, let me ask you, did you see this

18 document in June of 1992?

19 A. I saw this document in June of 1992.

20 Q. Now, I note that the beginning of this

21 document says, "In order to support the units active in

22 Hadzici area, pursuant to an order from republican

23 headquarters, I hereby order." Now, sir, you would

24 agree with me that it was normal for a commander to

25 pass onto his subordinates and to implement the orders

1 that the commander received from his higher command?

2 A. Yes, this is the regular procedure. In other

3 words, the commander of the municipal staff received an

4 order from the republican staff to set aside certain

5 personnel, and he specifically is issuing the order as

6 to which personnel who is commanding officer there, and

7 so on.

8 Q. And I think it's clear, isn't it, that the

9 fact that it says, "pursuant to an order from

10 republican headquarters," doesn't mean that Mr. Ramic

11 had no authority over the TO troops under his command?

12 A. I don't know what you want to say by that.

13 Mr. Ramic has complete authority to command of the

14 republican staff of Konjic. Here you can say that he

15 received an order from the republican staff to set

16 aside some personnel for the Tactical Group 1, that is,

17 for the area or the direction of operation, and I see

18 it as perfectly clear. I hope you do too.

19 Q. It was normal -- it was not unusual, when a

20 commander was passing along orders to his own

21 subordinates, for the commander to indicate that he had

22 received an order from his higher command? That's

23 correct, isn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, sir, I notice --

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Just a moment. If I may

2 interrupt for a second. Pursuant to Rule 66 of the

3 Rules, Prosecution has an obligation to provide all the

4 documents to the Defence. I must point out that the

5 Defence never received this document from the

6 Prosecution, and that the Prosecution is directly in

7 violation of this Rule.

8 MS. McHENRY: If I may respond. This is a

9 document we received from Ms. Residovic herself on the

10 4th of July, 1996. It may be that Ms. Residovic has

11 forgotten that fact.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Proceed.

13 MS. McHENRY:

14 Q. Now, sir, I notice that this document has two

15 seals and one signature. When you saw it in 1992, did

16 it also have two seals and one signature?

17 A. I believe that it did, but here it states

18 clearly who the commander is and who has the right to

19 issue orders --

20 Q. Sir, I don't think there is a question, so it

21 may be -- I haven't asked a question yet.

22 A. Very well. I will wait.

23 Q. Was it usual or unusual for you to see

24 documents in 1992 that had seals on them without a

25 signature? Let me ask it another way. What's the

1 purpose of a seal on a document?

2 A. It is usual with -- in our own practice, and

3 this is still in force today, that the seals are

4 affixed to the documents, and this is actually to prove

5 in which institution, which unit, which command, a

6 certain document was compiled, and where it is being

7 kept. And a person who are signatories are the ones

8 who stand behind them, that is, in this particular

9 case, behind this order. And this is still in effect

10 with us.

11 Q. Your Honour --

12 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. As far as I can

13 see, these seem to be similar seals, two impressions of

14 the same seal.

15 MS. McHENRY: I am happy to ask the witness,

16 Your Honour.

17 JUDGE JAN: He's got probably the original.

18 MS. McHENRY:

19 Q. Sir, are you able to tell whether or not

20 these seals come from the same body or not?

21 A. You cannot see clearly, but it is possible

22 they are from the same institution. Again, let me

23 point out that this is to trace the institution in

24 which this document was registered and in which it was

25 drafted. And if a document was compiled, let's say in

1 the staff of the municipal headquarters of the TO

2 Konjic, then it bears the stamp of this Konjic TO

3 staff.

4 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, since the witness

5 has indicated that this is a true and accurate copy of

6 a document he received a copy of in 1992, I ask that it

7 be admitted into evidence.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, it's admitted.

9 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

10 Q. Now, sir, I am correct, aren't I, that the

11 Gajret unit which is referred to here did not actually

12 join Tactical Group --

13 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. Just I was

14 wondering -- just a minute, please. The --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

16 To Judge Jan, please.

17 JUDGE JAN: (No microphone) One of the

18 signatories, although he has not signed it, is probably

19 the coordinator. Why send a then to the coordinator?

20 If he's also one of the originators of the document,

21 why send a copy to him?

22 MS. McHENRY: Possibly for his own --

23 JUDGE JAN: You want this document to be put

24 on the record, admitted into evidence. I just want to

25 find out, because it is now your document, can you

1 explain that to me.

2 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I can certainly

3 explain a number of reasons why it might happen,

4 including that the coordinator would want to make sure

5 that he had a copy for his own files.

6 JUDGE JAN: But he's the originator of the

7 document.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why his name appears in

9 the list of those copied, that's all.

10 JUDGE JAN: That is your document. I just

11 wanted to find out.

12 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I can give you why

13 I presume it's the case, but I can't give evidence, so

14 I'm not sure you will be satisfied --

15 JUDGE JAN: Surely, you must have looked at

16 the document and you must have seen that. You must

17 have sought information.

18 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour. I'm not

19 going to give evidence, but I think it's rational to

20 assume that the coordinator, given that another copy

21 goes to files, it could be that in addition to the

22 files of the TO and HVO headquarters, the coordinator

23 wanted his own file.

24 But, Your Honour, I'm not -- I certainly am

25 not going to be able to explain every single document

1 that comes into evidence. And that's in fact one of

2 the reasons why we show these documents, is to show

3 that there was some confusion and some lack of clarity

4 about exactly what was going on.

5 JUDGE JAN: It is your document. You should

6 be able to tell us. The explanation has to come from

7 you, because you are relying upon this document,

8 telling us that it's a reliable document.

9 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour --

10 JUDGE JAN: Explain to us this little,

11 seemingly, discrepancy.

12 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I've given you

13 one, what I think, plausible explanation. The witness

14 has said that this is a reliable document, but with

15 respect to every nuance, I don't think it's going to be

16 the case that we can in every single instance explain

17 every discrepancy, because this was a wartime

18 situation.

19 And I think the way things were working was

20 not always in accordance with sort of strict lines of

21 procedure, or always even one hundred percent

22 rational.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, you will -- the

24 Rule on this, however, I would just like to state for

25 the transcript that this document has no reference with

1 respect to Zejnil Delalic, and we have heard about a

2 whole range of persons who were coordinators during

3 that period.

4 JUDGE JAN: It refers to a coordinator, not

5 necessarily your client.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: A general provision.

7 MS. McHENRY: Let me go on, sir.

8 Q. I am correct, aren't I, that the Gajret unit,

9 which is actually referred to in this document, did not

10 actually join Tactical Group 1 until at least the 20th

11 of June. Is that correct?

12 A. That is not correct, as far as the date is

13 concerned, because we have already stated that this

14 unit joined on the 12th rather than 20th of June. It

15 is correct that it did join the Tactical Group, or was

16 subordinated to the Tactical Group, but it was the 12th

17 June until 18 of June when these combat operations

18 which had been planned for it were completed.

19 Q. And you are sure about those dates? Is that

20 what I am understanding you --

21 A. Completely certain.

22 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, you indicated that

23 some of the TO units who provided units had district

24 headquarters that were operating, such as Zenica. Did

25 I understand, or it's my assumption from what you

1 stated yesterday, that the district staff was not

2 involved in this process by which the Tactical Groups

3 would communicate with the supreme command, and the

4 supreme command would communicate with the districts --

5 with the TO headquarters? Is it correct that the

6 district staff did not play any role in this operation

7 that you've described?

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Apologies. There may be a

9 problem in interpretation, but I understood -- I could

10 not understand -- I did not understand the way the

11 question was phrased. So for those of us who are

12 unable to follow it in the original, can it please be

13 restated.

14 MS. McHENRY:

15 Q. Sir, did you understand the question? Would

16 you like me to repeat it?

17 A. It is a rather comprehensive question. Maybe

18 I can answer it part by part, or else I can offer an

19 equally comprehensive answer. I cannot answer your

20 question with a simple "yes" or "no" or with just a

21 couple of words.

22 Q. That's fair enough, sir. And let me just, to

23 make sure that Ms. Residovic understands, the question

24 was whether or not in this operation by which the

25 Tactical Groups would get troops by communicating with

1 the supreme command and the supreme command

2 communicating with the TO units. Did the district

3 staffs that were operating play any role? And, sir,

4 please explain.

5 A. Yes, they did play a role. The district

6 staffs were also involved, that is the ones that were

7 operational at the time.

8 Q. And can you explain in this operation that

9 you've discussed, where you would communicate with the

10 supreme command and then the supreme command would

11 communicate with the TO headquarters, where is it in

12 this process that the district staff played a role?

13 A. The transmission of orders to the municipal

14 staffs who were under their authorities. For example,

15 in the specific case we can give a good illustration on

16 the municipal staff of Prozor, which was under the

17 command of the district command in Zenica, and it was

18 through them that they received orders to set aside

19 certain troops for the Tactical Groups.

20 Q. Now, I would ask that you be shown the chart

21 again, the one that you compiled, D145/6/3. It's pages

22 893 and 894. I believe it's in Volume 3.

23 Now, sir, this chart is dated from May to

24 November, and indicates that during the JUG operation,

25 in addition to the troops shown on the chart, there

1 were an additional 200 troops attached to Tactical

2 Group 1. Is that correct? And I think that's actually

3 not shown on the ELMO. I think it's a little below

4 that.

5 A. It's one of the General charts which is shown

6 in order to better understand how the Tactical Groups

7 worked.

8 Q. That's correct.

9 A. It does not refer -- I mean, that is the

10 correct part of it, but the relations that we talked

11 about a moment ago are not represented here.

12 Q. I'm sorry, sir, I don't understand. What

13 relations do you mean?

14 A. You asked me how the municipal staff received

15 orders, whether the district staffs had played a role

16 in it, and I said that they did, and I gave you this

17 example.

18 Q. Yes, sir. I understand that, and I

19 understand that that is not represented on the chart

20 and my questions are not related to that. These are

21 new questions about a different subject matter. And my

22 particular question is: Am I correct that in addition

23 to the chart -- to the troops that were shown in the

24 actual chart itself as being part of Tactical Group 1

25 during the JUG operation, Tactical Group 1 had an

1 additional 200 troops? And I am specifically making --

2 just basing that question on remark 2.

3 A. I said a Tactical Group or the troops of the

4 Tactical Group were of a temporary formation, and the

5 forces are not the same for two operations, and they

6 may not be the same regarding the force, the type of

7 personnel, et cetera. So I am giving -- this is just a

8 General way in which certain units were set aside in

9 order to assemble a particular unit for a particular

10 task. And it does not mean that it was factually so.

11 So this is not a formation that was used for

12 the JUG operation, nor is it a formation for any

13 specific operation. This is just to generally show how

14 this came about, how this was done.

15 Q. Well, then, let me clarify, sir. Is this

16 chart, including the remarks that are made part of it,

17 an accurate depiction of the composition of Tactical

18 Group 1 from May to November of 1992?

19 A. It cannot be a representation of the accurate

20 composition of the Tactical Group, because the forces

21 within the Tactical Groups change. There were periods

22 when you had just the command staff and maybe up to 100

23 personnel, or troops, so this was not a composition

24 that was there throughout this period. It was always

25 only done in order to carry out certain operation, and

1 at the end of it these troops are then returned to

2 their home bases, to their units.

3 Q. Did you actually draw up this chart?

4 A. Yes, we did put it together.

5 Q. When you say "we", who else besides you

6 compiled this chart?

7 A. We did this in the fourth corps command.

8 Q. So who else, besides you, participated in

9 creating this chart?

10 A. My staff.

11 Q. And who is the member of your staff, sir?

12 Who participated in making this chart?

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You mean by who helped

14 duties, who gave information?

15 MS. McHENRY: How many other people were

16 there who helped you make up this chart?

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He's signed as a person

18 who produced it. I think if you have any questions,

19 ask him.

20 MS. McHENRY:

21 Q. Then, sir, let me ask you what is meant by

22 remark 2 when it says, "To strengthen Tactical Group 1

23 for JUG operations, it had additional 200 soldiers?"

24 A. This was an example which says that this

25 composition of Tactical Group was changed. It can be

1 changed at any time, depending on the available force,

2 and the Tactical Group can be larger or smaller.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the Trial

4 Chamber will now rise and we'll reassemble at 2.30.

5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

7 (The witness entered court)

8 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

9 are still under oath.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Ms.

11 McHenry.

12 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Good afternoon,

13 sir.

14 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.

15 MS. McHENRY:

16 Q. Sir, before lunch we had talked about who had

17 authority to appoint command staff. I just want to

18 make sure I understood you correctly, unless it was an

19 emergency, the head of the Territorial Defence had no

20 authority to appoint the persons who would be part of

21 his staff within the Territorial Defence? Did I

22 understand you correctly?

23 A. He could only do what was allowed for him to

24 do under the law.

25 Q. And what did the law provide with respect to

1 Territorial Defence commanders appointing their own

2 staff?

3 A. He could not appoint his staff, but he could

4 appoint staff to his subordinate units. And when I say

5 "units", it means officers, together with squad

6 leaders.

7 Q. Okay, thank you. Now, it's correct, sir,

8 that when you were a commander of Tactical Group 1,

9 there were sometimes MUP units that were made part of

10 your Tactical Group?

11 A. Yes, there were such instances.

12 Q. And how about troops from other entities,

13 such as HOS units, did you have any other such units

14 when you were commander of Tactical Group 1?

15 A. When I was commander, we had no people from

16 such units.

17 Q. Were you aware that when Mr. Delalic was

18 commander of Tactical Group 1 he did have HOS units

19 under him?

20 A. I am not familiar with that.

21 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that in cases

22 where MUP units or whatever other units were part of a

23 Tactical Group, they then were under the higher

24 authority of the supreme command? For the period that

25 they were part of the Tactical Group.

1 A. No, if they were given to a Tactical Group

2 during that period of time they were under the command

3 of the commander of the Tactical Group, as well as all

4 the other formations.

5 Q. And, sir, am I correct, aren't I, that the

6 higher authority to the Tactical Group was a supreme

7 command?

8 A. Yes. A main staff of the supreme command.

9 Q. Yes, and so wouldn't that mean that the MUP

10 units that were part of the Tactical Group were under

11 the, for that period of time, under the authority also

12 of the supreme command?

13 A. Only during the combat activity, yes, within

14 that period. This would follow from the authorities of

15 the Tactical Group for that period.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you talked about that

17 tactical groups had important, urgent needs for

18 intelligence, information and logistical support and

19 you indicated that tactical groups could ask for

20 assistance in those regards from Territorial Defence

21 headquarters, do you remember that?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Now, you would agree with me that Tactical

24 Groups had authority to issue orders to TO commanders

25 about intelligence matters?

1 A. Yes, but only under the authorities given to

2 them or orders given to them by the supreme command.

3 This includes the providing of intelligence data,

4 nothing else.

5 Q. Well, how about logistical support?

6 A. Concerning logistic support, they could deal

7 with requests for equipping the troops and units that a

8 particular municipal staff or TO headquarters sets

9 aside for the use of the Tactical Group.

10 Q. Well, with respect to some of these matters,

11 you mentioned a directive, now is a directive an order,

12 a regulation or something else?

13 A. The provision issued by the Presidency of the

14 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and would be valid until

15 another regulation or a provision referring to that

16 particular issue would appear.

17 Q. Do I understand you, sir, that you're stating

18 that there was a specific regulation which dealt with

19 the issue of tactical -- I mean, that dealt with the

20 issue of Territorial Defence headquarters, providing

21 intelligence matters to tactical groups?

22 A. No, this is not regulated in that manner,

23 this is regulated by an order of the superior command

24 to meet those requirements.

25 Q. And did you yourself see this order? Was it

1 in written form? Let me ask you that first. Was it in

2 written form?

3 A. Yes, it was in a written form. I personally

4 did not see it, but it is part of the files. I know

5 that such orders were transmitted to communication

6 links and that they would receive such orders in full

7 certainty in that manner.

8 Q. Let me just ask that you be shown Prosecution

9 Exhibit 224. It was shown to you during direct. Let

10 me also just notify the registrar that the next

11 document that I ask that he be shown is D-146. It was

12 also shown to him during direct. Now, sir, you would

13 agree with me that nowhere in this order from Mr.

14 Delalic to Konjic headquarters about intelligence is

15 there any mention of any kind of directive or order

16 from the supreme command?

17 A. Yes, there's no mention of it here concerning

18 the order of the supreme command staff, but my previous

19 statement, I mentioned that in such cases, in addition

20 to an order like this one, it should have been appended

21 with a directive from the main staff of the supreme

22 command to make this order valid and binding for

23 municipal staffs. Unless, it is not there, this order

24 would not be binding for municipal staffs because

25 municipal staffs are not under the command of the

1 commander of a Tactical Group.

2 Q. Well, let me follow up. Well, certainly in

3 cases where there's an attachment that forms an

4 integral part of a document, that is usually reflected

5 in the document itself?

6 A. Together with the document, it should also

7 have with it an original copy as an annex to it coming

8 from the supreme command.

9 Q. Sir, you stated, again referring to this

10 document that Mr. Delalic had no authorisation to

11 ensure that this order was carried out. The last

12 sentence which states; "that the commander of the TO is

13 responsible to me for compliance with this order," what

14 does that mean to you, sir?

15 A. Only in the case of such obligations tied to

16 specific activities. In this case it is reconnaissance

17 and intelligence gathering, due to the emergency and

18 the need for obtaining such information. The commander

19 warns the TO commanders of their responsibility. If

20 those informations are not admitted in time, they will

21 be held responsible if the Tactical Group is incapable

22 of performing the task. I personally think this was a

23 mistake. This should not have been formulated in this

24 way in a text that they are responsible to him. They

25 are responsible to the supreme command if they do not

1 abide.

2 Q. Now, when you were a commander of Tactical

3 Group 1, were you considered part of the supreme

4 command?

5 A. No, I have not.

6 Q. Did you issue written orders when you were

7 commander of Tactical Group 1?

8 A. Yes, but only to my units whilst they were a

9 part of the TG.

10 Q. So you did not issue any written orders about

11 intelligence matters or similar items, did you?

12 A. No, there was no need for me to do that.

13 When I was commander, there was no such problems.

14 There was absolutely no need for this. I believe

15 Delalic did this because he must have been at a

16 situation where that was needed.

17 Q. Let me refer you to the heading of this

18 document in front of you, where it says, "Headquarters

19 of the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces, Sarajevo,

20 Tactical Group 1," when you issued written orders, when

21 you were commander of the Tactical Group, did you use

22 that same heading?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. Okay. And you would agree with me that this

25 heading would indicate that Tactical Groups are

1 considered part of the supreme command?

2 A. No, they are subordinate to the supreme

3 command. This points out that TGs are supreme commands

4 subordinate to units. At least in the army it has been

5 structured that way, to see the superior command and

6 then the command that issues a given document or order

7 or a directive and so on.

8 Q. So, under that reasoning, when TO

9 headquarters issued orders, they would also have

10 headquarters of the supreme command of the armed forces

11 and then they would have TO headquarters?

12 A. Yes, it would.

13 Q. Now, previously you mentioned that Visoko

14 command post and also the Visoko Tactical Group, what

15 relationship, if any, was there between these two

16 entities?

17 A. There was communication, forward command post

18 was a part of the supreme command, which was outside of

19 Sarajevo. And all the TGs, including TG-1, and

20 Tactical Group Visoko, was subordinated to the supreme

21 command and this then applies to the forward command

22 post as well. Tactical Group Visoko is subordinate to

23 the supreme command as well as all the other formations

24 in the area of the Republic.

25 Q. Now, with respect to the 27th of July order

1 regarding Mr. Delalic, where he's given certain

2 authority, you stated that this document took a long

3 time to arrive, that you heard about it orally and it

4 took a long time to arrive, do you remember that?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Am I correct then that you did not even see

7 that order before you had your accident in August?

8 A. Yes, I would say so.

9 Q. And after your accident in August, am I

10 correct that you were out for approximately six

11 months?

12 JUDGE JAN: That's what he said yesterday.

13 MS. McHENRY: Did he say six months, I'm

14 sorry, I didn't remember it.

15 Q. I would ask that the witness now be shown

16 D-146-1. Again, this is a document that you saw in

17 direct. Now, sir, in direct examination you gave your

18 opinion about this document and I would just like to

19 clarify that your opinions about the document are

20 speculation in that you didn't see this document in

21 1992 and you didn't talk to anybody about why it was

22 issued, is that correct?

23 A. That was my comment as a professional

24 soldier, why there was a necessity for this document

25 because a previous document was very unclear, too

1 generalised, and the military practice, such documents

2 are not considered reliable.

3 Q. Let me just remind you, just if you can, just

4 listen to my question. My question wasn't for you to

5 explain your opinion again. My question was to clarify

6 that you didn't see this document in 1992 and you

7 didn't talk to anybody about why it was created in

8 1992?

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that why he cannot

10 express an opinion?

11 MS. McHENRY: No, Your Honour, I haven't said

12 he can't express an opinion, I am just clarifying the

13 basis for that opinion.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's in the document,

15 and he's compared it with practice and he can tell you

16 what he thinks the content of the document. That's

17 what he was saying. Not anything -- I think he just

18 tells you what he feels that document represents.

19 MS. McHENRY:

20 Q. And it's correct, sir, that your opinion

21 about what this document represents doesn't mean that

22 you saw this document in 1992 or know why it was -- why

23 this document was created as a matter of fact?

24 A. I have said that I did not see the document,

25 I just commented on it.

1 Q. Okay, thank you. Now, you would agree with

2 me, sir, that often President Izetbegovic affirmed the

3 appointments that had already been made for purposes,

4 including for publication in the official gazette?

5 A. Not only published. I have mentioned that in

6 the emergency situations, commanders who did not have

7 the authority under the law would still appoint

8 commanders to certain posts or give certain duties.

9 For all the persons that the presidency had authority

10 over, then additionally they had to verify those

11 temporary orders made in such instances. That was

12 their authority, their duty.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, let me ask that you look at

14 this document closely, sir. And in it, there's an

15 indication that the documents are based on a proposal

16 by the Minister of Defence of 19th of July, 1992. Now

17 would you agree with me, wouldn't you, that it wouldn't

18 make sense for this order to have been made to clarify

19 an on order that hadn't even been made on July 19th,

20 1992?

21 A. He could see when the document was drafted.

22 This is just a link from the Ministry of Defence, it

23 does not have to refer to everything in the document

24 because they mentioned several provisions and

25 regulations in the law, including the position, the

1 recommendation of the Minister of Defence. This does

2 not means it refers directly to what I commented on.

3 Q. Let me ask you, sir, with respect to that

4 same document, this description of the area of Tactical

5 Group 1, Hadzici, Pazaric, Konjic and Jablanica, is

6 that an accurate description of the zone of operations

7 of Tactical Group 1?

8 A. Looking at the description of the area, they

9 were not, the facilities and the names are not put in

10 line looking at it geographically, otherwise it should

11 be fine. They are reversed in order. And we as

12 soldiers usually go in the direction of the enemy, but

13 these names are valid and this is the direction, this

14 is the area.

15 Q. Sir, at this time, Tactical Group was

16 operational in those four municipalities, is that

17 correct?

18 A. Tactical Group was there only to attempt to

19 lift the siege off of Sarajevo. Stated here are the

20 areas from which Tactical Group would take units to

21 compose them -- to fulfil the number of needed soldiers

22 for the operation i.e. The municipal staffs and the TO

23 headquarters which were obliged to set aside a number

24 of units for the needs of the Tactical Group.

25 Q. So if I understand you correctly, these four

1 municipalities listed here do not indicate where

2 Tactical Group 1 was actually operating, but they

3 indicate the municipalities from which Tactical Group 1

4 had some units?

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise, the on the

6 transcript we miss -- there's a word that is missing,

7 which means mainly or usually. The latest quoting,

8 "would take units" and the General said, "would

9 usually take units."

10 MS. McHENRY: That's fine.

11 Q. Did you understand my question or do I need

12 to repeat it?

13 A. If you could repeat.

14 Q. Did I understand you correctly, that these

15 four municipalities listed here, that they do not

16 represent the area of operations of Tactical Group 1,

17 but instead represent the municipalities for which

18 Tactical Group 1 usually took some units?

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How does a Tactical

20 Group usually take -- when it is about ad hoc

21 creation?

22 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, I believe I

23 am using his own words, if it's not correct, I assume,

24 he'll correct me.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The type of question is

1 misleading. It's not a standing order, it's about

2 areas where they would usually take things.

3 THE WITNESS: My answer again is that these

4 are the staffs, command staffs from these

5 municipalities which had an obligation to allocate or

6 set aside parts of their units for the Tactical Group

7 1. That is the point of this order, that this is a

8 standing obligation. So not municipalities, but

9 municipal staffs from that area.

10 Q. And it does not represent the area of

11 operation of Tactical Group 1, correct?

12 A. No. The area of operation of Tactical Group

13 1, as I pointed out yesterday, was Pazaric, Hadzici,

14 Ilidza. That is where it was operating in terms of

15 combat, but these are the areas from which the units

16 are used for, set aside.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you stated in direct --

18 I am finished with that document. Thank you. Sir, you

19 stated that there was a rule that said Tactical Groups

20 had no authority to discipline troops placed under

21 their command; is that correct?

22 A. We did not have the authority over the troops

23 as far as the penal provisions are concerned, those who

24 were part of the Tactical Group 1 for this brief task.

25 Q. And did you state that there was a rule to

1 this effect, a rule or a regulation, or order?

2 A. Just legal provisions which enumerated and

3 stipulated exactly the duties, together with the

4 rights, as well as the authority when the discipline

5 was concerned. And in no such provision, order or

6 directive, was the Tactical Group or the commander of

7 Tactical Group given such an authority.

8 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. As I understand,

9 in Pakistan, different types of court marshals dealing

10 with different offences, like the field court marshall,

11 the General court marshall, do you have the same thing

12 in -- a special court marshall, do you have anything

13 like that in the Bosnia Army?

14 A. Not now. Now it's unified orders. No

15 special court marshall in our Army. All cases of

16 Prosecution are taken over by the civilian courts and

17 all these cases are then resolved in the civilian

18 courts.

19 JUDGE JAN: What was the position in 1992?

20 A. In '92 there were some wartime court marshals

21 which did handle these cases.

22 JUDGE JAN: Could a TG commander order a

23 field court marshall or a general court marshall or a

24 special court marshall?

25 A. No. Commander of the Tactical Group only had

1 a possibility to give information on the person who has

2 violated the discipline and turned him over to his

3 home-based unit, and then this unit would then go on

4 and prosecute, if necessary.

5 MS. McHENRY:

6 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that there was

7 nothing in writing anywhere which indicated -- which

8 stated that Tactical Group commanders did not have

9 authority to discipline the troops under their command?

10 A. There was nothing in writing anywhere with

11 respect to the commander of Tactical Group being able

12 to discipline his troops.

13 Q. And would you agree with me that it's an

14 extraordinary departure from standard military practice

15 that a commander, who has authority to issue orders to

16 troops under his command, has no authority to

17 discipline those troops?

18 A. Apparently, you do not appreciate how short a

19 period of time is covered by these troops being part of

20 the Tactical Groups. I gave you several examples of

21 what periods of time these were. It never exceeded 10

22 days. So there was absolutely no need to give such an

23 authority to the commander of a Tactical Group, because

24 if in, let's say, in this first case we -- there was a

25 period of 20 to 28th May and then 10 to 18 June and

1 then 10 to 15 July, then you can see how long these

2 troops stayed within their formation. And the Tactical

3 Group commander doesn't have the time to deal with

4 these things. That would be absurd.

5 JUDGE JAN: I think it was wrong. It's not a

6 special but summary court marshall. Did you have the

7 power to hold summary court marshals?

8 A. No, we did not have such courts.

9 MS. McHENRY:

10 Q. This understanding of yours, that Tactical

11 Group commanders did not have authority to discipline

12 troops, were there exceptions to this, such as when the

13 Tactical Group was in an area where it couldn't

14 immediately send someone back to its parent unit?

15 A. There were no such cases, at least while I

16 was a commander.

17 Q. Now, Judge Jan asked you what happened with

18 Tactical Group 1 prisoners, and you responded that

19 Tactical Group 1 did not have prisons. Let me ask you

20 this: During the entire course of operations of

21 Tactical Group 1, was anyone ever captured or did

22 anyone ever surrender?

23 A. While I was the commander, no. And there are

24 reasons for it. And, if necessary, I can also

25 explain.

1 Q. Now, sir, you would agree with me that in

2 1992 there were no regulations concerning who ran

3 military prisons?

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Isn't it his evidence

5 there were no military prisons?

6 MS. McHENRY: I don't believe that he stated

7 that, Your Honour. If so, he can tell me that.

8 Q. Let me clarify. Is it the case that in 1992,

9 in all of Bosnia-Herzegovina there were no military

10 prisons?

11 A. As far as I know, there were none.

12 Q. Let me ask that you be shown this chart with

13 your signature verifying its accuracy. I have extra

14 copies, and I ask that the English -- well, there's

15 extra copies.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution document 250.

17 MS. McHENRY: Can we have the English on the

18 ELMO also, please.

19 Q. Now, sir, is this your signature on this

20 chart?

21 A. Yes, this is my signature.

22 Q. And does this chart accurately reflect your

23 understanding of who had authority over the prison and

24 the Celebici barracks by month?

25 A. I really don't know who had authority. These

1 data were taken from the agency which deals with

2 prisons. These are not military prisons. This is

3 General prison.

4 Q. Sir, I didn't ask if it was a military

5 prison. I just asked whether or not, given that you

6 have signed this, this document reflects your

7 understanding of who had authority over the Celebici

8 prison.

9 A. As I said, this document was prepared by

10 persons who must have had the appropriate data. I did

11 sign this document, even though specifically regarding

12 this authority I never verified it, nor did I have an

13 opportunity to do so.

14 Q. Sir, when it says "accuracy of verified by

15 fourth corps commander, Brigadier Mustafa Polutak,"

16 what does that mean?

17 A. As I said, based -- on the basis of documents

18 which were used to create this chart, this should be

19 accurate, and that it should mean that I have verified

20 it and that I signed it. However, I said that

21 personally I did not verify it, but on the basis of the

22 documents available, this was produced and I did sign

23 it as such.

24 Q. And does this -- does the same hold true with

25 the third chart on the same document, which states,

1 "duties of Delalic"?

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I'm sure you can't even

3 understand these documents. Do you understand this?

4 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour.

5 A. Yes, for the most part, again according to

6 the knowledge and data, the activities of Zejnil

7 Delalic during this period, for the most part they were

8 in logistics, then coordination between the war

9 presidency of the Konjic municipality and the Konjic

10 defence forces, and then as commander of Tactical Group

11 1.

12 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. I would move into

13 evidence Prosecution Exhibit 250.

14 JUDGE JAN: Before you move further, I want

15 to ask the General a question.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your

17 Honour.

18 JUDGE JAN: In this chart, chart number 3, you

19 described him to be a soldier. He is merely a

20 civilian. Why did you describe him as a soldier?

21 A. This is some kind of mistake. Not as a

22 soldier. You are right, not as a soldier. Only as a

23 logistics person. He only engaged in procurement or

24 acquisition of logistical materiel for the military.

25 So not a soldier, because at that time he was not a

1 soldier.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What do the Roman

3 figures --

4 JUDGE JAN: Months.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- indicate?

6 A. Roman numerals designate months.

7 JUDGE JAN: Now you can move to the other

8 subject, as you say.

9 MS. McHENRY: Okay.

10 Q. Let me just actually ask you. Sir, you would

11 agree with me that someone who has authority to engage

12 in -- to enter into agreements about joint actions of

13 troops has a military function, at least with respect

14 to that?

15 A. Can you please repeat this?

16 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that someone who

17 had authority to enter into agreements on joint actions

18 of troops, that that would constitute a military

19 function rather than a civilian function?

20 A. As far as reaching agreements is concerned,

21 this "constitute" is a bit vague in the military.

22 Maybe it was something very -- for us maybe

23 coordination was more appropriate. Where the HVO and

24 the Territorial Defence acted on a parallel basis, and

25 since they were not under a joint command, there was a

1 need to coordinate between these two forces or these

2 two formations.

3 Here, Zejnil Delalic is not mentioned and, as

4 far as I know, he was not a coordinator between the HVO

5 and the Army, that is the TO, but between the war

6 presidency and the defence forces in the Konjic area.

7 So that would be the connection. That would be closer

8 to what his role of coordinator was, even though part

9 of his job may also have involved attempt to narrow the

10 gap and bridge the differences between the HVO and the

11 TO.

12 But the actual military functions were

13 performed by the commanders of the HVO and the TO.

14 That is, that was all performed at a command for --

15 because for a while there was a joint command in Konjic

16 between the HVO and the TO.

17 MS. McHENRY: I have no additional questions

18 for -- with respect to this exhibit, but I would ask

19 that it be admitted into evidence.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, it's admitted.

21 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

22 Q. And, sir, would you agree with me that it

23 would not be possible for the legitimate government of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina to absolve itself of responsibility

25 under the Geneva Conventions for POW's merely because

1 there were no regulations governing military prisons?

2 JUDGE JAN: This is a legal question. How

3 can he answer? You are asking about legal opinions.

4 MS. McHENRY: I'll move on.

5 Q. Sir, I am going to show you another chart,

6 please, that you have drawn or, excuse me, that has

7 your signature.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution document 251.

9 MS. McHENRY:

10 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that this

11 document also bears your signature?

12 A. Yes, this is my signature.

13 Q. And, in fact, this document is similar to the

14 document already admitted into evidence. But let me

15 ask you, does this document accurately reflect your

16 understanding that soldiers in the TO were directly

17 subordinate to the main staff of the Army and partly

18 subordinate to the war presidencies?

19 A. You mean in the remark underneath? Is that

20 what you are referring to?

21 Q. That's correct. I am referring to the note,

22 and I am asking whether or not that note, the chart,

23 the whole document, accurately reflects your

24 understanding that soldiers in the TO were directly

25 subordinate to the main staff and partly subordinate to

1 war presidencies?

2 A. All units were subordinate to the main

3 staff. I would just like to point out here that why it

4 states that partly to the TO's -- it's the term

5 municipal TO's. This is what it actually states. It's

6 a very small number of troops and these are the units

7 of -- for information, and they are with the staff,

8 with municipal staffs, and they are directly controlled

9 and commanded by the ministry, so this is a very small

10 number of persons who are involved in the

11 communications, people who are in charge of

12 mobilisation, and so on.

13 So these are -- this is a very small number

14 of persons. We are talking about 10 to 15 people here

15 with respect to the relation between the war presidency

16 and these persons who are subordinate to them.

17 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. What do the

18 letters "RPS" stand for? In the Bosnian version there

19 is a description, not in the English translation. In

20 the Bosnian version there is an extra translation of

21 these two letters, but not in the English version.

22 A. It's war presidency of these municipalities.

23 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on) What does

24 "RP" stand for?

25 MS. McHENRY: Is it correct that the letter

1 "RP" stands for war presidency.

2 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on) War

3 presidency is mentioned separately.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, sir.

5 MS. McHENRY: Yes, sir, I think that's the

6 notation of the translation section. They put

7 something in brackets when it's --

8 JUDGE JAN: Not a slash, but a bracket?

9 MS. McHENRY: Yes. Sorry, I didn't

10 understand that.

11 Q. So if I understand you correctly, sir, there

12 were some number of soldiers, a small number of TO

13 soldiers, who had partial subordination to the war

14 presidency; is that correct?

15 A. These are not TO soldiers. These are

16 soldiers or personnel from the ministry who are engaged

17 in the matters concerning the information, alert, and

18 similar activities.

19 Q. So there are some persons who are soldiers,

20 who are fully subordinate to the main staff and partly

21 subordinate to war presidencies; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, through the Ministry of Defence, the

23 small number of people that I mentioned.

24 MS. McHENRY: Okay. Your Honours, I would

25 ask that 251 also be admitted into evidence.

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, what is the

2 purpose?

3 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, the purpose is

4 it's a chart which explains his understanding of

5 tactical and operative groups, including his

6 understanding that there were soldiers in the

7 municipality who were fully subordinate to the main

8 staff, and partially subordinate to the war

9 presidencies.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- soldiers within the

11 region, within the area?

12 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour. I believe --

13 yes.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay. It's admitted.

15 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

16 Q. Now, sir, you stated that you met Mr. Delalic

17 during the time that he was coordinator. Am I correct

18 that one of the times you met Mr. Delalic was in

19 mid-May 1992 in Dusina, when the first efforts to lift

20 the siege of Sarajevo were being planned?

21 A. It is correct that I met Mr. Delalic for the

22 first time in Dusina, but not -- but at the time when

23 we met, the lifting of the siege of Sarajevo was not

24 being planned. It had been planned earlier. But I was

25 in Dusina in order to find out how much of the materiel

1 would be possible to set aside for the lifting of the

2 siege, so that I can plan my combat activities. I can

3 explain that too, why Dusina.

4 Q. I am not going to ask you about that, sir.

5 Sir, I am correct that Mr. Rasim Delic was in Dusina

6 also?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. And in what capacity was Mr. Delic there?

9 A. At that moment we were waiting for one of the

10 larger convoys, which were meant to supply for the

11 needs of the units. Amongst other authorities, Rasim

12 Delic also had the duty to distribute those supplies.

13 In that case we should decide on the distribution of

14 that materiel and equipment.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Does this evidence help

16 you in any way?

17 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

18 Q. Am I correct that you were there in your

19 capacity as Tactical Group 1 commander?

20 A. Yes, at that time I was a commander of

21 Tactical Group 1.

22 Q. Now, in addition to meeting Mr. Delalic

23 before he was Tactical Group commander, you met him

24 after he left Bosnia, didn't you?

25 A. Yes, I met with him once.

1 Q. And am I correct that you got in contact with

2 Mr. Delalic after he left Bosnia to help with the war

3 effort, and later you went to Vienna to attend a

4 meeting of the Bosnian association headed by

5 Mr. Delalic; is that correct?

6 A. It is not true. I did speak -- I did not

7 speak with Delalic, I spoke with our association in

8 Vienna about that meeting. To be more precise, all the

9 arrangements were done through Mr. Velagic and the

10 representative of the SDA party, who was in Vienna,

11 together with his associates, meaning the BiH

12 association, and upon my arrival to Vienna, amongst

13 other people, I met also with Mr. Delalic, because he

14 would also come around to that association, and that's

15 where I met him.

16 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that you, during

17 one of these occasions, there is in fact a video in

18 which you stated that you got in touch with

19 Mr. Delalic, and Mr. Delalic accepted to be president

20 of the steering committee to connect the people of

21 Herzegovina?

22 A. Velagic was the main person for the

23 arrangement.

24 Q. Sir, if there is a videotape showing you

25 saying this, would you say that it's not correct, or do

1 you just say that you don't remember?

2 A. I would say it is incorrect, because a direct

3 agreement, a direct communication with Delalic I did

4 not have. The main organiser of the meeting was Teofik

5 Velagic. His people would come to Jablanica to see

6 Savko Bitanga, and I can't remember the other persons

7 names, so that's how we communicated through those

8 people about our coming to Vienna, not with Zejnil

9 Delalic.

10 MR. OLUJIC: I apologise, Your Honours, the

11 name has been misspelled. Once it is Velagic and the

12 next time it was Velagic. The correct name is Teofik

13 Velagic.

14 MS. McHENRY:

15 Q. Sir, let me move on to something else. You

16 stated that in addition to the main combat task of a

17 Tactical Group commander, the supreme command could

18 give tactical groups additional tasks, do you remember

19 that?

20 A. Yes, I have said that.

21 Q. Now, when was your accident in August,

22 approximately?

23 A. August 25th, 1992.

24 Q. Now, sir, you would agree with me that after

25 your accident in August, you don't know what tasks were

1 given Mr. Delalic by the supreme command?

2 A. If he received special tasks after 25th, then

3 I wouldn't know that for certain and I presume there

4 was no such case.

5 Q. And let's talk about the period before the

6 25th, did you know every task given to Mr. Delalic by

7 the supreme command?

8 A. No, not every task specifically. But when we

9 speak about authorities, I am certain that they were

10 not changed until the 25th, the ones relating to the

11 commander of the TG.

12 Q. Well, let me ask you, sir, you would agree

13 with me and indeed I have believed you stated

14 previously when asked about Mr. Delalic's

15 responsibilities as Tactical Group 1 commander, "I

16 cannot say whether his responsibilities as commander of

17 the Tactical Group had been increased compared with the

18 time when I was commander of Tactical Group 1." Is

19 that a correct statement, sir?

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not sure he has

21 said anything differently.

22 THE WITNESS: I believe I have said that he

23 did not receive greater authority, but the area of

24 activity was reduced because at that time we had the

25 Tactical Group 2 established. That was my comment.

1 His authorities were not greater, expanded, only the

2 area was reduced.

3 Q. Well, sir, let me just ask you, isn't it

4 correct that previously, when asked about Mr. Delalic's

5 responsibilities, you said, "I cannot say whether his

6 responsibilities as commander of the Tactical Group had

7 been increased compared with the time when I was

8 commander of Tactical Group 1." Did you say that

9 previously?

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Even if he did and it

11 was different, you must have been wrong, that's all.

12 Why all that?

13 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour --

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He can't be wrong, he's

15 not the one doing it. Someone else is giving the

16 authority.

17 JUDGE JAN: But he said "da." You said

18 "yes"?

19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I answered "yes".

20 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. We have no further

21 questions, thank you. Thank you, sir.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have any

23 re-examination, you can. Thank you very much.

24 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic

25 Q. General, during cross-examination, you spoke

1 of the authorities of the commander of the Tactical

2 Group or another commander concerning appointments

3 stemming from his authorities. You were also shown

4 appointment document about the appointment of Mr.

5 Pilica Sukro. Did the command superior to commander of

6 the Tactical Group could give authorities to him,

7 authorities that would refer to appointing of certain

8 people?

9 A. In correspondence to their authorities,

10 superior command can give their subordinate commanders

11 certain authorities.

12 Q. Such an authority, would it be in compliance

13 with the military science?

14 A. Yes, it would.

15 Q. General, you were also shown the structure of

16 the Tactical Group put together by you, you said before

17 the Chamber precisely that we have an organisational

18 chart which need not be put into reality at any given

19 moment. The chart that was signed by you, would it

20 represent a planned or possible number of soldiers that

21 the particular Tactical Group would need or is it a

22 fixed number of soldiers belonging to the Tactical

23 Group?

24 A. This is a planned figure. Planned forces. I

25 have said earlier that --

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone not on)

2 -- for you to explain. It wasn't ambiguous. It was

3 very clear. It shows the strength of the formations at

4 that time and those who contributed and how many people

5 they contributed. There's nothing ambiguous about

6 that.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is the controversy

8 because the witness responding to the Prosecution's

9 answers -- questions, gave certain answers that I

10 wanted clarified. He confirmed now that these numbers,

11 planned number.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The question you should

13 re-examine about must be arising from what

14 cross-examination had introduced. That is all you are

15 entitled to do. Where there's no ambiguity in what the

16 cross-examination raised throughout.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC:

18 Q. General, when we speak of the shown document

19 dated June 11 on the establishing of Gajret, did the

20 municipal staff, which has command over all the units

21 in its territory authorised to subordinate those units

22 without a command from a -- without an order from a

23 supreme command to give, to set aside for some other

24 command?

25 A. I think I understood. Without a supreme

1 command's order, municipal staff could not subordinate

2 its units to any other commander. It must have been an

3 order existent.

4 Q. And the last question, engagement of combat

5 units within their own area, is it solely under the

6 competence and authority of municipal staffs?

7 A. Basically this was under the authority of

8 municipal staffs, except in the case when a superior

9 command gives an order.

10 Q. I have another question. You have said a lot

11 about the forward command post in Visoko. To clarify

12 this to myself after the numerous questions of the

13 Prosecution, I am asking you now, in the given

14 situation that you have mentioned, did this forward

15 command post have the authority of the main staff also

16 over the areas of Konjic and Jablanica?

17 A. Yes, it did, the forward command post had the

18 authority within its area outside of Sarajevo.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, I have no further

20 questions for this witness.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

22 When you want clarification about what has not been

23 unclear to the Trial Chamber, I think you can find some

24 other ways of doing that. This is very clear and I

25 don't think that anybody had any doubts. But you said

1 it was something you want to clear for yourself and

2 it's acceptable.

3 Now, thank you very much, Brigadier, you've

4 been very helpful and I am sure you've been on the hot

5 seat for quite some time. Thank you. So you're

6 discharged.

7 (The witness withdrew)

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have your next

9 witness too. Let's have your next witness.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: May we call in the next

11 witness.

12 (The witness entered court)

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Swear him, please.

14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

15 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

16 truth.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may take your

18 seat, please.

19 WITNESS: HUSEIN ALIC.

20 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic

21 Q. Good afternoon, sir, would you please

22 introduce yourself to the chamber by stating your full

23 name?

24 A. Good afternoon, my name is Husein Alic.

25 Q. Mr. Alic, as I did with other witnesses, I

1 want also to warn you of a technical issue. I will ask

2 you questions and since we use the same language, you

3 could quickly answer to all of my questions, but each

4 of my questions needs to be interpreted for the

5 honourable chamber, as well as all the others present

6 to understand my questions and also we need to

7 interpret the answers that you give. That's why I plea

8 that you pay attention to the headphones on your

9 table. We will hear the end of interpretation and from

10 that moment on to begin with your answer to my

11 question.

12 Have you, Mr. Alic, understood my notice?

13 A. Yes, I have.

14 Q. Thank you. Also, for better understanding, I

15 ask you to all the questions with "yes" or "no," if

16 possible, and not to just nod your head because we need

17 it for the transcript.

18 Mr. Alic, will you tell us where and when you

19 were born?

20 A. I was born on October 5th, 1952, in

21 Rogatica.

22 Q. What is your ethnic background and

23 nationality?

24 A. I am a Bosniak Muslim and my nationality is

25 the one of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

1 Q. What is your formal education and where have

2 you obtained it?

3 A. Primary and high school I completed in

4 Sarajevo, after which I went to the universities of

5 Sarajevo and Zagreb, and I am a traffic engineer.

6 Q. Mr. Alic, where were you on April 6th, 1992,

7 when the aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina began?

8 A. I lived and worked in Hadzici. I was then

9 drafted to the reserve units of the MUP.

10 Q. What were your duties, posts, did they have

11 anything to do with the military prior to your

12 drafting?

13 A. I had my own private company.

14 Q. Mr. Alic, can you tell us when were you

15 drafted to the reserve units of the MUP?

16 A. That was at the end of March or beginning of

17 April, 1992.

18 Q. Mr. Alic, after that period, during 1992,

19 have you become a member of the TO of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21 A. Sometimes in May of 1992, I became a member

22 of the TO.

23 Q. You have stated that you lived in Hadzici and

24 that you had your own private enterprise there. We've

25 had a previous witness who was the head of the

1 municipal assembly in Hadzici and I will, therefore,

2 not ask you about the situation in Hadzici. I will ask

3 you only whether at a certain point the Yugoslavia

4 National Army took over the city and where did you,

5 together with local populace retreat to?

6 A. On May 9th, JNA and SDS forces took over the

7 control of Hadzici and the population and the police

8 forces were then moved to Pazaric and Tarcin.

9 Q. I will also now ask you of your knowledge of

10 regulations put into force by the state because the

11 Chamber has seen and heard a lot of evidence about it,

12 but I would be interested in your personal experience.

13 In accordance with the regulations on the organisation

14 of the TO, did you participate personally in your

15 municipality? That is, in the formation of units of

16 the TO.

17 A. In a way I did because I was a member of the

18 MUP. And after May 9th, we were able to put together

19 some kind of defence to prevent further advancement of

20 the enemy and we set up a defence line and then we

21 moved on to the formation of defence forces which

22 demanded cooperation with the TO and the municipal

23 staff, so in that way I did take part in the

24 establishment of units.

25 Q. Mr. Alic, as you have said, sometimes in May,

1 you were drafted from the MUP into the TO. Did you

2 then, together with some other people or under the task

3 given by the municipal staff, participate in the

4 establishing of an unit in the municipal area? If you

5 did, can you tell us what the name of it was and where

6 was its seat, it's headquarters?

7 A. I took part in the forming of the so-called

8 joint platoon of Igman and our headquarters was on

9 Mount Igman because of its crucial strategic importance

10 to prevent any further attacks.

11 Q. To clarify your position as one of the

12 members of the TO and to set a basis for further

13 questions --

14 JUDGE JAN: Why don't you come straight to --

15 (Microphone not on). Did he have any connection with

16 TG-2? Instead of going into all the details in which

17 you're not interested, so that he can straight away

18 tell us what his functions were and what his

19 connections with TG-1 were. We don't have to go into

20 all those details.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the witness

22 also has to understand me. I have to ask him about his

23 functions to proceed to my following questions. I

24 cannot directly ask him what was with the Tactical

25 Group. I don't know if you understand, but I need a

1 few questions to ask, so that you would see that this

2 witness has personal knowledge of what was going on.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: A person who has no

4 personal knowledge, we know that.

5 JUDGE JAN: This will cut out a lot of

6 evidence we are not concerned with.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has only come here to

8 give us an idea of his connection with Delalic and the

9 responsibility in the area of their relationship.

10 That's why you have brought him. So all these are the

11 peripheral areas, might not interest anyone.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Through what he was doing in

13 May, we can proceed towards whether Mr. Alic had met

14 Mr. Delalic at all and about his authority, so I just

15 asked a few questions to give you a picture. Thank

16 you.

17 Q. Mr. Alic, before I move on to the very

18 question I wanted the ask, I believe the Chamber has it

19 clear, even visually speaking where the Hadzici

20 municipality is, but, nevertheless, can you tell us how

21 long is the line of your municipality, the border,

22 towards the Sarajevo that was under siege? And I am

23 asking this because this border was a place of intense

24 fighting during the entire 1992.

25 JUDGE JAN: The president of the Hadzici

1 municipality, it is within, it is included within the

2 municipal bounds of Sarajevo, so it couldn't be very

3 far. It had a lot of military -- it had a military

4 installations and the JNA occupied it. We have all

5 been told about that. What else do you want? You

6 think he's more informed than the president of the

7 assembly, Hadzici, who was here two days ago before

8 us?

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: I do not believe he was

10 notified. He was on that line, on that border, so this

11 might have interested us. But I will try to move

12 closer to the specific questions and to skip over some

13 ten questions I had.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

15 now rise and come back at 4.30 p.m.

16 JUDGE JAN: 4.30.

17 --- Proceedings adjourned at 4.00 p.m.

18 --- Proceedings reconvened at 4.30 p.m.

19 (The witness entered court)

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Proceed, please.

21 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

22 are still under oath.

23 THE WITNESS: Yes.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC:

25 Q. Mr. Alic, do you personally know that at some

1 point in the month of May command of the Tactical Group

2 1 moved to the territory of your municipality and set

3 up its headquarters there?

4 A. Sometime in mid-May of 1992, Mustafa Polutak

5 came to Pazaric, along with part of the command.

6 That's when we learned that Tactical Group 1 had been

7 established, and he was its commander, and they set up

8 their headquarters in the school in Pazaric.

9 Q. Was this Tactical Group headquarters in the

10 school throughout?

11 A. No. At first it was in the school in

12 Pazaric, and after that, after the barracks. Pazaric

13 was taken over, it moved into the barracks. And after

14 that, in the course of further operations, it moved to

15 the Hotel Borik, which is where I was located also.

16 Q. On the basis of your knowledge, can you tell

17 me whether the headquarters of the Tactical Group 1

18 throughout its -- the period of its existence, was in

19 Pazaric, and for a period of time at Hotel Borik on

20 Mount Igman?

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. Mr. Alic, can you tell me whether in this

23 period, while Mr. Polutak was commander, you were ever

24 subordinate to Mr. Polutak and, if you were, when was

25 this?

1 A. I was subordinate, and it was also in May of

2 1992, along with part of my detachment, of which I was

3 then chief of staff during the operation of the Janista

4 (phoen) barracks, as we used to call that operation.

5 Q. During this first combat operation of

6 Tactical Group 1, did units from Konjic also take part?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Mr. Alic, did you take part in any other

9 combat activity of Tactical Group 1 regarding the

10 lifting of the siege of Sarajevo in which some of the

11 units of Konjic took part?

12 A. In month of June an operation was prepared

13 which we called Tinovo Brdo, and in this operation I

14 also took part along with the part of my detachment, as

15 well as some units from Konjic and Jablanica.

16 Q. Can you tell us, since you were participant

17 in these efforts to lift the siege, did Zejnil Delalic

18 join these units, either as a member of them or as

19 their superior commander?

20 A. In the month of May they did not take part in

21 it, nor did Zejnil Delalic come during the course of

22 this operation.

23 Q. Do you know Seid Padalovic?

24 A. I have heard of that name. I may have met

25 him, but I do not know him personally.

1 Q. Mr. Alic, can you tell me when you first met

2 Mr. Delalic as commander of Tactical Group 1? First of

3 all, let me ask you whether you know that Zejnil

4 Delalic was appointed commander of Tactical Group 1?

5 A. I learned that, I believe, in late July, when

6 I personally met him. Until then I had heard of him,

7 and I may have met him once in June, in Pazaric, when

8 he was engaged in the organisation of -- starting the

9 first train line and things like that.

10 Q. Before I move onto other questions relating

11 to Mr. Delalic, can you tell me, Mr. Alic, during the

12 period of time that -- when Mr. Mustafa Polutak was

13 commander of Tactical Group 1, did you take part in any

14 other combat operations, apart from Tinovo Brdo, in

15 trying to lift the siege?

16 A. Yes, I did take part in the operation Brdo

17 Strajiste. All these operations were part of

18 preparations for the operation of the lifting of the

19 siege of Sarajevo.

20 Q. Mr. Alic, let me rephrase this. Did there

21 come a time when in the area where Tactical Group 1 was

22 involved in its operations, did in this area at some

23 point -- was Tactical Group 2 established in that same

24 area?

25 A. That was also sometime in July of 1992, when

1 the main staff deemed it necessary that Tactical Group

2 1, whose zone of responsibility was very large, be

3 divided into two Tactical Groups. And at that time, in

4 fact, the Tactical Group 2 was established. And their

5 zones of responsibilities were separated.

6 Q. During this combat operation in which you

7 yourself took part with part of your detachment, and as

8 a unit which was subordinate to Mustafa Polutak and his

9 Tactical Group 1, what other units which were not

10 subordinate to Mr. Polutak, to whom were they

11 subordinate?

12 A. They were subordinate to the municipal staff

13 who issued orders to them, and it was normal that part

14 of the unit be set aside for Tactical Group and the

15 rest of them be under the command of the municipal

16 staff.

17 Q. When the Tactical Group 2 was established,

18 were you, Mr. Alic, appointed by the main staff to one

19 of the duties in Tactical Group 2?

20 A. I was appointed the chief of staff of

21 Tactical Group 2, and commander of Tactical Group 2 was

22 Mirsad Catic.

23 Q. Mr. Alic, what was your area or what zones,

24 so-to-speak, was the zone -- the area from which you

25 could subordinate units to Tactical Group 2?

1 A. The zone of responsibility of Tactical Group

2 2 was part of the Hadzici municipality, Mount Igman,

3 that is the slopes, different slopes. I won't name all

4 of them, and then the Hrasnica and Ilidza municipal

5 staffs, Krupac and Trnovo.

6 Q. As chief of staff of Tactical Group 2, you

7 certainly know whether your Tactical Group 2, during

8 the combat activities, had under its control some

9 combat units from the municipal staff of Hadzici?

10 A. Yes. Of course. Tactical Group 2, the way

11 it was conceived, did have under its command parts of

12 the forces from the municipal staff of Hadzici,

13 municipal staff of Ilidza or Hrasnica, and municipal

14 staff in Trnovo, and of course the forces which were at

15 that time deployed at Mount Igman.

16 Q. At the time of the existence of your Tactical

17 Group, were the units which were subordinate to Hadzici

18 municipal staff also subordinate to the Tactical Group

19 1?

20 A. Yes, that is correct. Part of the forces of

21 the municipal staff of Hadzici was also subordinate to

22 the Tactical Group 1, because, in fact, half of this

23 municipality was split in terms of the zones of

24 responsibility between Tactical Group 1 and Tactical

25 Group 2. And I used "half" in a very conditional way.

1 Q. Can you tell me whether the remainder of the

2 units of municipal staff of Hadzici, which, at some

3 point, were not subordinate to either municipal --

4 Tactical Group 1 or Tactical Group 2, under whose

5 command were they?

6 A. I have already answered that the part of the

7 units which were not subordinate to either of the

8 Tactical Groups remained under the command of the

9 municipal staff. Be it Hadzici, Trnovo, Ilidza, it was

10 the same principle.

11 Q. Mr. Alic, can you tell me to whom the

12 municipal staff of the Hadzici municipality was

13 subordinate?

14 A. It was subordinate to the district staff in

15 Sarajevo. For a while, while this district staff was

16 in existence, and later when the first corps was

17 established, it was subordinate to the first corps.

18 Q. Given that you have spent the entire period

19 of time in this area, did there come a time when the

20 municipal staff in Hadzici was subordinate either to

21 Tactical Group 1 or Tactical Group 2?

22 A. No. That was not possible at any time.

23 Tactical Groups 1 and 2 were established exclusively as

24 combat formations, with specific number of troops for a

25 specific period of time and for a specific task.

1 Q. Mr. Alic, after they carried out a task for

2 which they had been established, and I mean both in

3 terms of Tactical Group 1 and Tactical Group 2, where

4 did these troops that were attached to these groups go

5 back to?

6 A. They went to their parent unit, so-to-speak,

7 or to their parent municipal staff.

8 Q. In this period in 1992, because you were

9 there throughout this time, did Tactical Group 1 or

10 Tactical Group 2 ever have fixed formations of troops

11 for either period of time?

12 A. We never had permanent formation. During the

13 planning of an operation we assessed what forces we

14 needed and, depending on whether the operation was

15 small or large, we would use part of the forces which

16 were subordinate to us.

17 Q. You said that in late July Mr. Delalic

18 arrived in Pazaric. Do you know -- do you personally

19 know where the former commander, Mr. Polutak, go?

20 A. Mr. Polutak went to Visoko to a new post.

21 Q. Let me ask you something else, Mr. Alic. You

22 probably know, and the court knows this, that

23 Mr. Zejnil Delalic has no military experience as a

24 professional soldier. Did you, Mr. Alic, have any

25 military experience in terms of training in order to be

1 a professional soldier?

2 A. No. I graduated from civilian university,

3 so-to-speak, and all my military knowledge comes from

4 the time when I served with the JNA. However, in that

5 period, by establishment of certain units, a person who

6 was going to lead it, who was going to be in charge,

7 had to be somebody from -- who was known locally, who

8 had strong contacts. And so it was that Mr. Delalic

9 was known as a business person, and this is why he was

10 a commander, and his staff consisted of professional

11 soldiers.

12 In my case was more or less the opposite. My

13 commander was a professional soldier and I was a local

14 person who knew the terrain, who knew people, who had

15 contacts and so on.

16 Q. Thank you. This would also be your opinion

17 on why Zejnil Delalic would have been appointed to such

18 a post; is that a fair statement?

19 A. In that period there was a certain amount of

20 mistrust towards anyone who was an officer with the

21 former JNA. Only a person of this kind, who was

22 respected, would have been a real logical choice to

23 assume a position of leadership, to use his contacts

24 and lead the people.

25 Q. Thank you. Do you know to whom was your

1 Tactical Group subordinate? In other words, who was

2 the command superior to you?

3 A. It was the supreme command of the armed

4 forces.

5 Q. And who was subordinate -- superior command

6 to Tactical Group 1?

7 A. It was also the supreme command of armed

8 forces. There was no difference between Tactical Group

9 1 and Tactical Group 2, except by the zone of

10 responsibility.

11 Q. Mr. Alic, did there come a time when you

12 became commander of Tactical Group 2?

13 A. This was -- Commander Mirsad Catic was

14 wounded in August of 1992, and then I was appointed

15 commander of Tactical Group 2.

16 Q. Who appointed you?

17 A. Supreme command or main staff.

18 Q. May the witness please be shown D145/A/6,

19 page 902.

20 JUDGE JAN: Why are we interested in this

21 document?

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 JUDGE JAN: Why are we interested in this

24 document? It relates to TG2. You said that he was

25 appointed to the supreme command. That's good enough.

1 Why do you want to have this document before us?

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: So that the witness would

3 recognise it, and it corroborates the military expert

4 report. You instructed us to authenticate this

5 document in this way, and I believe that this would be

6 right way to do it.

7 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on) -- directed

8 you to prove those documents which are relevant, which

9 have a bearing on the responsibility of Mr. Zejnil

10 Delalic. There must be a thousand documents that you

11 can produce that have no bearing at all on the issues

12 before us. Please be relevant.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC:

14 Q. Mr. Alic, is this document of your

15 appointment?

16 A. Yes, that is the pertinent document.

17 Q. Can you tell me, at the time when you were

18 appointed, did members of the main staff come to Mount

19 Igman in order to prepare the attempt to lift the siege

20 of Sarajevo?

21 A. Yes, two representatives of the main staff

22 arrived there. It was Asim Dzambasovic and Dzemal

23 Najltovic (interpreter's spelling unsure), who were

24 supposed to coordinate the activities between Tactical

25 Group 1 and Tactical Group 2 with respect to

1 preparation for the lifting of siege of Sarajevo.

2 Q. Mr. Alic, this attempt at lifting the siege

3 of Sarajevo was conducted through this coordination, or

4 did -- or was another command established which -- in

5 order to command the units who would be engaged in

6 combat?

7 A. The main staff saw that with this

8 coordination nothing would be accomplished, even if

9 these were professional soldiers engaged. So it

10 decided to establish a temporary command for this

11 operation aimed at lifting of the siege of Sarajevo.

12 Q. Mr. Alic, were you a member of this temporary

13 command?

14 A. Yes, I was a member of that command as a

15 chief of the operations body.

16 Q. Do you know whether Zejnil Delalic too was a

17 member of this temporary command?

18 A. Yes. He was assistant commander for

19 logistics.

20 Q. May the witness --

21 JUDGE JAN: Assistant commander or assistant

22 to the commander? Was it assistant commander or

23 assistant to the commander?

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Assistant commander. May the

25 witness please be shown Exhibit D145/A6/9, page 911.

1 Q. Mr. Alic, is this the document on appointment

2 of the temporary command which you just spoke about?

3 A. Yes, this is the document.

4 Q. Can you tell us where is the position which

5 you occupied, or what was your task in this command,

6 and where is your name here?

7 A. I think it's number 6. The head of the

8 operations unit.

9 Q. Mr. Alic, at the top we see who the commander

10 is and who the chief of staff is. Can you tell me, the

11 other persons from this list, is there a place on the

12 list equivalent to their place in the chain of command

13 or hierarchy?

14 A. In the -- on the list you have Dzemal

15 Najltovic as a commander, and he is the most important,

16 and then Asim Dzambasovic come after him. Then all the

17 rest of the names does not have that hierarchical

18 value, so the order on the list does not matter. I am

19 the operations unit head, which, according to me, is

20 the most important one for preparation and execution of

21 the combat operations.

22 But if you look at the list, in order of

23 appearance, the security head is ahead of me, or the

24 artillery head and the logistics head are all in front

25 of me, and they would be minor -- of lesser importance.

1 Q. Very well. According to your explanation,

2 each of the members of this staff had his own

3 responsibilities and authorities; is that correct?

4 A. Yes. Speaking of myself or any member of the

5 staff, we had authorities and responsibilities within

6 the framework of our position, mine being operation

7 unit, and the head of communications was responsible

8 and had the authority to the establishing of the

9 operations, of the communication systems in the

10 operation.

11 Q. Since you were directly responsible for the

12 conduct of combat operations, can you tell the Chamber

13 where was Tactical Group 1 engaged, in which area, and

14 during the operation JUG, where was engaged Tactical

15 Group 2, in which direction or part of the zone of

16 activity?

17 A. TG-1 was engaged in the area Selo (phoen)

18 Koscan, Brdo Orman, towards Hadzici. That was the

19 ancillary direction of the planned attack, with the

20 task of expanding the front line, distracting and

21 taking the attention of the enemy on ourselves. And

22 Tactical Group 2 had the task, Igman, Krupac (phoen)

23 and further. That was the main direction of the

24 planned operation.

25 Q. Since combat operations were your basic task,

1 can you tell me, did Village Bjelinici in the

2 municipality area, belong to this ancillary direction

3 or area of activity?

4 A. Concerning the same tasks that were referred,

5 for example, the Village Koscan, the same should have

6 been done to the Village Bjelinici, with the same task,

7 and that is directing attention from the area of the

8 main attack.

9 Q. Mr. Alic, under the command of the temporary

10 command in your area, were there at that period

11 subordinated units from other areas? That is, from

12 areas which Tactical Group 2 did not use to subordinate

13 units, take them from those areas?

14 A. Yes, the most numerous unit was the one from

15 Zenica, which was outside of our area of

16 responsibility. And when we speak of Tactical Group 2,

17 for example Konjic, Jablanica and so on, and we even

18 had Vakuf. They cooperated in the operation and they

19 were not even close to the area of the responsibility.

20 Q. As a person responsible for the operation, do

21 you know that during the operation JUG, that units from

22 Jablanica and Konjic were subordinated to Mr. Delalic

23 as a commander of Tactical Group 1 or the person who

24 held the authority at the ancillary direction?

25 A. Within the framework of the JUG operation,

1 the main direction of attack was the zone of

2 responsibility of TG-2. For those reasons, units from

3 Konjic and Jablanica were subordinated to the area of

4 responsibility of TG-2.

5 Q. Mr. Alic, during that operation, did you have

6 subordinated MUP units?

7 A. Yes, there were some under the orders of

8 their public security stations. One of them was also a

9 part of my security during the preparation and during

10 the conduct of it.

11 Q. I would now move to another topic, which may

12 be familiar to you. Since you cooperated with Mr.

13 Delalic for a certain period of time whilst he was

14 commander of TG-1, do you know whether Mr. Delalic at

15 any given time was the commander of all the formations

16 of armed forces?

17 A. I do not understand all formations. Myself

18 as a commander of TG-2 had authority over only over

19 those units who were subordinate to me during the

20 operation. The same authority had Mr. Delalic as a

21 commander of TG-1, nothing more nor less.

22 Q. As a chief of staff and later on the

23 commander of TG-2, which was right behind the line of

24 the siege, as well as the other Tactical Group, can you

25 tell me whether you personally ever received orders of

1 the main staff in order to transmit them to a remote

2 municipal staff within your zone of responsibility or

3 outside of it?

4 A. This was usual circumstance. Communication

5 with the main staff at the beginning relied on the

6 messenger who would have to run over the runway and

7 they would get killed. That was very unsafe and it

8 would happen that we would never receive such an

9 order. Later, we tried to communicate with the main

10 staff through UNPROFOR, if they would permit that some

11 of our soldiers go through the danger area and

12 transmits such an order. But, at that time, on

13 Bjelasnica, we had a relay, which was functioning, so

14 we had communication with the main staff through radio

15 communication. After I would receive such an order to

16 transmit it to another staff, I would do so.

17 Q. If you were given such an order, were you as

18 a soldier bound by it, did you have to fulfil it or

19 would you reject such an order?

20 A. How could I as a soldier reject main staff's

21 orders? I had to carry it out.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone not on) Try

23 and be a little bit more relevant. And let us know why

24 we are here for the trial. It's not been helpful at

25 all in the amount of evidence you've been leading.

1 This is not what one expects of this witness. If he is

2 so close to Delalic and he if was working with him for

3 so long, we expect evidence of that relationship.

4 Anything directed to him alone has nothing to do with

5 this trial.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honourable Judges, these

7 are two Tactical Groups. I wish to show whether there

8 was a difference between this man acted and Mr. Delalic

9 did. The next question would have been whether he

10 knows whether Mr. Delalic were given similar orders to

11 transmit them to other municipal staffs. If this

12 person does not know that, then how could I ask him

13 questions about Mr. Delalic if he doesn't know what

14 Tactical Groups usually do?

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am listening to you

16 over the minutes and it has been complete irrelevance

17 to the subject matter.

18 JUDGE JAN: It's very simple. Is he aware of

19 all the instructions and the directions in the

20 authorisations which the supreme command had given to

21 Mr. Delalic? Is he aware of all of them? Let him say

22 so, then you can ask him. The supreme command may have

23 given some different directive or authorisation to Mr.

24 Delalic on certain other matters, so why do you ask him

25 these questions if he cannot possibly answer?

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honourable Judges, I

2 know that the Chamber has the right to ask questions at

3 any given moment. At their desire I will try to follow

4 your instructions.

5 Mr. Alic, do you know whether at any given

6 moment, did an order from the supreme command that was

7 transmitted to Mr. Delalic, did it change in any way

8 his function as the commander of a Tactical Group?

9 A. Such an order cannot at any moment change the

10 nature of command post of the Tactical Group 2. This

11 order can, due to emergency, refer the a particular

12 task. But the basic responsibilities of a commander of

13 TG-2 are always the same.

14 Q. How do you know that, Mr. Alic? How often

15 during the period of the beginning of August, when Mr.

16 Delalic came to the Mount Igman, until you left in

17 October, were you in the situation to be in contact

18 with Mr. Delalic?

19 A. I know this because we were in a daily

20 contact, we worked, planned, organised, we even slept

21 in the same building and we had the same common

22 objective. We had to communicate and this was

23 literally on a daily basis. If I received an order as

24 a TG-2 commander, which did not directly refer to TG-1,

25 I would only suppose that Zejnil Delalic could know of

1 it because we are there, we share, we even share the

2 same desk.

3 Q. Mr. Alic, did you ever find out that

4 Mr. Delalic received from the supreme staff, any

5 authority over institutions within his area of

6 activity?

7 A. No, I do not know that.

8 JUDGE JAN: How could he know everything

9 which was communicated to Delalic by the supreme

10 command unless he was going through all his papers all

11 the time? He was busy looking after TG-2. Yes, they

12 were probably together very often, but that doesn't

13 mean that they were together all of the time or

14 Mr. Delalic would mention every document he received

15 from the supreme command to this witness. So why do

16 you go into those questions? They have no bearing.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: I wanted to see what this man

18 knows because important authorisations are familiar to

19 our companions, so if he does know, he would tell us,

20 if not, then he would say no.

21 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE JAN: He has already answered your last

24 question, he doesn't know.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC:

1 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge that Mr.

2 Delalic ever had any authority over prisons and was he

3 ever given one?

4 A. I have no personal knowledge of it and I do

5 not know the situation where he would be given such an

6 authority.

7 Q. Had Mr. Delalic had such an authority, would

8 you have been able to find that out during that

9 period?

10 A. I suppose that I then should have been given

11 the same orders that TG-2 commander because we were

12 equal in ranking.

13 Q. Did you ever receive any order relating to

14 the Hadzici prison, for example?

15 A. No, never. Tactical Group is solely a combat

16 formation and it has no relation with institutions

17 active within the area of responsibility of municipal

18 staff.

19 Q. Mr. Alic, I will now move on to another

20 area. You have explained to us that TG-2 had the same

21 combat objective as the one of TG-1, that is to try to

22 lift the siege of Sarajevo. As a commander of TG-2, as

23 well as relating to your knowledge of the authorities

24 of the commander of TG-1, was it important to you to

25 receive informations and intelligence relating to the

1 enemy?

2 A. It is important for any commander, this is

3 the starting point for planning of any activity, any

4 operation. If he lacks such knowledge, I don't know

5 how he could proceed. This is fundamental.

6 Q. Do you personally know whether your command

7 or a command of TG-2 had organised units for

8 reconnaissance or intelligence gathering?

9 A. TG-2 or TG-1 commands consisted of five or

10 six people at the most. One of them would usually deal

11 with intelligence and reconnaissance. This was not a

12 body or an unit. This was usually done by the

13 municipal staffs who had larger possibilities.

14 Q. As TG-2 commander, do you know whether the

15 supreme command ever gave a directive or an order to

16 municipal staffs binding them to provide you with such

17 information?

18 A. Yes, such a directive did exist, through

19 which the main staff ordered municipal staffs to give

20 over to commands of Tactical Groups relating to

21 intelligence.

22 Q. I will now ask you a hypothetical question.

23 If a municipal staff commander or chief does not obey

24 that order, could you have any authority over him in

25 that respect or could you react in a completely

1 different manner? What was your authority?

2 A. Personally I could do nothing in relation to

3 that commander, TO or municipal staff. I could

4 approach the main staff or the superior commands of the

5 municipal staff, that is the district staff, this was

6 all that I could do.

7 Q. I now ask that the Prosecution Exhibit D --

8 no, P-224 be shown to the witness. Whilst we're

9 waiting for the document, can you tell us, during the

10 preparation for the operation JUG to lift off the siege

11 of Sarajevo, due to a lack of existence of such

12 information, were there incidents where you have

13 penetrations done by the enemy and did that have any

14 consequence on you performing your tasks?

15 A. Because of those reasons, my commander,

16 Mirsad Catic, because he lacked intelligence, he

17 initiated a reconnaissance and a meeting dealing with

18 the preparation of the operation and the enemy inserted

19 a commando group, which wounded the commander and

20 killed another member of the command staff.

21 Q. You can take a look at the document. We can

22 see that this was dated November 14th, 1992, signed by

23 the commander of TG-1. Have you ever seen this or a

24 similar document during 1992?

25 A. I have never seen this document. I am

1 reading the text. There are overlaps with the

2 directive from the main staff concerning tasks of

3 reconnaissance and intelligence gathering.

4 Q. You have already answered that Tactical Group

5 according to your knowledge of the time did not have

6 different or wider authorities than the Tactical Group

7 2. In your knowledge, did Zejnil Delalic have such an

8 authority in any period prior to your leaving in

9 October?

10 A. Could you please repeat the question, I did

11 not understand it?

12 Q. You have said that at the time when you

13 became commander of TG-2, Zejnil Delalic had the same

14 authorities and responsibilities designated to that

15 command post. I am asking you now whether the

16 authorities that Mr. Zejnil Delalic have remain the

17 same until you left that area in October, 1992?

18 A. Command post of a commanding function of TG-1

19 or TG-2 with all its responsibilities and authorities

20 were the same.

21 Q. Mr. Alic, in 1992, did you leave for Konjic

22 during the war?

23 A. I was wounded and taken to the hospital.

24 From that hospital directly to Mount Igman. That was

25 when I was in Konjic.

1 Q. Did you know that during 1992 in Konjic in

2 the Celebici barracks there was a prison?

3 A. Yes, I have heard about it, but I personally

4 have no knowledge of it.

5 Q. This then probably means that you will

6 affirmatively answer my following question. During

7 1992 then you never visited the Celebici barracks?

8 A. No, never.

9 Q. And since your zone of combat activity that

10 you were present at it, during the command of

11 Mr. Delalic, was anybody in charge of the Celebici

12 prison subordinated to the TG-1 commander?

13 A. A guard could be a subordinate to a commander

14 of Tactical Group 1, but in that case he's not a guard,

15 but a soldier. Maybe he had a different duty before

16 that and then he moves under the command later on.

17 That is possible.

18 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge of anybody

19 of that sort?

20 A. No. I believe there was talk in the MUP unit

21 in Konjic that one of them, I don't recall the name,

22 was a guard. And, after that, he was a member of the

23 MUP. And after that, he was under my command as a

24 soldier in TG-2.

25 Q. This person that you refer to was under your

1 command, not under the TG-1 command, is that the

2 example?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours, I

5 have no further questions for this witness.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

7 And I think it's 5.30 now. We'll adjourn until

8 tomorrow at 10.0 a.m. when cross-examination should

9 continue. The witness can leave. You can leave. Yes,

10 you will tomorrow. The Trial Chamber will wait when he

11 has left. We have a few things to discuss. Yes, you

12 can leave now.

13 (The witness withdrew)

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you please sit

15 down, we will have a few things. Now I think we have

16 to discuss a very critical matter which has confronted

17 us. The Trial Chamber has considered it in some

18 detail.

19 We're expecting that tomorrow the witnesses

20 we have for this should be concluded. Even if we do

21 not, that is the only witness list we are likely to

22 deal with next week. But we have the intention to have

23 the forthcoming week free because there's no need for

24 it. We have scheduled our trial to cover that period

25 and we expect Counsel will be able to comply.

1 We've made the order and we are leaving a

2 contingency plan. So that if Counsel for Delalic, as

3 they have decided, disobey the order of the Trial

4 Chamber, we are calling on Counsel for Mucic to make

5 arrangements to continue to call his witnesses next

6 week, for Monday, so that we would not have any gap

7 within which we'll have nothing doing.

8 Now, we are doing so most reluctantly because

9 we feel Counsel haven't cooperated to ensure a free

10 flow of the progress of this trial. The Trial Chamber

11 has done everything to ensure that the trial is

12 conducted in the interests of the accused persons

13 themselves. I have advised Counsel for Delalic that

14 the only alternative is to close the case of the

15 accused person if they think that they cannot carry on

16 next week. Because there is no way we can waive that

17 order which we have made.

18 Of course, perhaps, there's an escape if one

19 is inflexible with it and if one tries to obey the

20 orders of the Court. If Counsel for Mucic succeeds in

21 getting his witnesses or as many of his witnesses he

22 can call next week, then he can in this period as a

23 Defence as a whole, take his witnesses from next week

24 and then at the time when counsel for Defence,

25 Delalic's Counsel, would have had all their witnesses,

1 then you still take your own. You can still call the

2 witnesses for the second accused.

3 It's possible one could do it, even if it's

4 splitting the order of presenting the Defence. It will

5 not make a material shift in the nature of the Defence

6 which will be presented. But, in any event, as we've

7 said, we will not leave next week without any

8 proceedings. That is what the Trial Chamber intends to

9 impress on the Defence.

10 I think we'll try also to get the victims and

11 witnesses unit to cooperate fully with Mr. Mucic in

12 every way in which he can succeed in getting his

13 witnesses. If you have anything to say, let's hear

14 it.

15 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, with all due

16 respect for the Chamber, the interest of which is the

17 efficiency of this proceeding which has lasted for the

18 full 15 months now. Unfortunately, I am in no position

19 to meet your demands within the next 72 hours for the

20 Defence witnesses to appear before the Chamber on

21 Monday under the assumption that the witnesses of the

22 first accused, Mr. Zejnil Delalic, would not be at the

23 disposal to the Chamber during the next week.

24 And, on my behalf, I must say that work in

25 the field, we did everything to call the witnesses in

1 the period after the 20th of June, so we anticipated

2 that we would start presenting evidence after the 22nd

3 of June. But nevertheless, I can promise that the

4 Defence will induce additional efforts to be able to

5 meet the requests of the Honourable Chamber. But,

6 nevertheless, I do not believe that we are going to be

7 able to.

8 What I am trying to say is that we will do

9 our best. We'll try expressing our good faith to help

10 the Chamber and make it as efficient as possible, but I

11 do not believe, having in mind the location or

12 dislocation of our witnesses, which are in several

13 different places, I do not believe we are going to be

14 able to.

15 There's a semi-solution possibility. That

16 would be that part of our witnesses referring to the

17 alibi do appear during the next week, again presuming

18 it is possible. If we are unable to do so, with all

19 the best intentions and efforts, we will not be able to

20 meet the requests of the Chamber, although we do not

21 even find that the requests of the Chamber, but of

22 mutual team work, in order to speed up the proceeding.

23 So at the moment I exit the courtroom, my

24 entire team will do its utmost to have the witnesses

25 here on the Monday, the Defence witnesses for

1 Mr. Zdravko Mucic, at least a part of them. This is

2 all I can promise at the moment.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

4 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, this is the first

5 we've ever heard of an alibi. And we certainly

6 received no notice of such a thing under the Rules.

7 And there's a particular requirement of Rule

8 67A(ii)(a). The very first we ever heard of it, Your

9 Honour.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There's a problem of

11 Rule 67 itself, which says we could not have prevented

12 it of leading evidence even if it wasn't complied

13 with.

14 MR. NIEMANN: I mean, the whole reason why

15 it's there.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's true. But the

17 Rule itself gives an escape. I don't know why.

18 MR. NIEMANN: But it would be gravely unfair

19 to apply it against the Prosecution at this stage, to

20 produce alibi, I mean this case has been going on for

21 15 months. They must have known they were going to

22 have an alibi.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you look at Rule

24 67 B, it's very clearly stated there. I have always

25 felt that was funny, but that's what the Rule is.

1 MR. NIEMANN: Well, it's discretionary, Your

2 Honour. In my submission, you exercise that discretion

3 against us. Having regard for the fact, this case has

4 gone for 15 months, it would be extraordinarily

5 unfair. To raise an alibi at this stage is, frankly,

6 outrageous.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have we anything else to

8 say about the matter?

9 MR. NIEMANN: The Prosecution will not be

10 ready to respond to an alibi next week if there's an

11 alibi to be raised. And we specifically ask that an

12 order be made now that they comply with Rule 67 in

13 relation to giving an alibi notice. I mean, it's

14 extraordinary that Counsel could stand up at this stage

15 after all the time this trial has been going and to

16 mention an alibi for the very first time.

17 We'll be making a motion, Your Honours -- to

18 Your Honours for such an order.

19 JUDGE JAN: In the criminal case the accused

20 has many privileges which the Prosecution doesn't

21 enjoy.

22 MR. NIEMANN: But, Your Honours, in most

23 jurisdictions. This is not one of them.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And that's why I

25 mentioned the Rule itself. I was surprised when it was

1 insisted on giving that provision of Rule 67B.

2 MR. NIEMANN: I complied with certain

3 circumstances where some sort of provisions of this may

4 be necessary. But of a trial that's been going for 15

5 months, it's to suggest that they didn't know about (a)

6 the Rule, and (b) the need to provide notice and (c),

7 the necessity to inform of us an alibi is extraordinary

8 and just unbelievable, frankly.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't know why that

10 provision is there, but it was insisted on by the Rules

11 Committee and they felt it has to be there.

12 MR. NIEMANN: But, Your Honours, it's not

13 mandatory for you to exercise it in that way. There

14 may be an exception which the Chamber may wish to rely

15 on at some stage, which it is there for. But it's an

16 exception to the Rule. The Rule is that alibi evidence

17 is to be provided, and there's a very good reason for

18 it.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Rule has stated that

20 what is said. That by itself does not deprive the

21 accused from giving evidence of alibi, which means they

22 actually knew this -- there might be cases where other

23 people might not even give notice.

24 JUDGE JAN: I do not know what defence

25 Mr. Olujic is going to produce, but maybe the passport

1 of Mr. Mucic indicate when he was away, and when he was

2 not away, and I think you had a copy of the passport.

3 MR. NIEMANN: We were not given an alibi

4 notice, if Your Honour pleases.

5 JUDGE JAN: Not an alibi, his passport.

6 MR. NIEMANN: I don't know, and I can't

7 possibly contemplate what the alibi would be, and I

8 note that Rule B, which Your Honour is referring to,

9 relates to the accused himself testifying, and we

10 certainly have no objection to the accused testifying.

11 It's calling witnesses that we are objecting to.

12 JUDGE JAN: In fact, one of the Defence

13 witnesses, a gentleman from Vienna, has already spoken

14 about the frequent visits of Mr. Mucic to Vienna where

15 they dined together, they lived together. One of the

16 Defence witnesses already said that -- I think it was

17 the witness from Vienna, who stated to have prepared a

18 video for the benefit of Mr. Delalic.

19 MR. NIEMANN: That reinforces my position,

20 because they must have known about their alibi far in

21 advance of this trial and be well in a position to give

22 us notice under the Rules. And paragraph B relates,

23 Your Honours, to the defendant himself testifying.

24 JUDGE JAN: We shall follow the Rules. Don't

25 worry.

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Olujic, any replies

2 to that?

3 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Your Honours. Thank

4 you for your assistance. Because the Trial Chamber is

5 fully aware of the Rules, and in referring to Rule 67,

6 and my colleague who calls outrageous the fact that he

7 did not receive the notice of alibi to them.

8 On 7th March 1997 the Defence provided a list

9 of persons to whom the accused -- my client will call

10 for his -- in his Defence. And it is terrible if the

11 Prosecution is not aware of it. And we have duly

12 registered it with the Tribunal and it has been there

13 since 7 March 1997. It has been initiated by my

14 colleague, Mr. Tapuskovic, who was the lead counsel at

15 the time. We have a copy of that submission and so

16 should the Prosecution. And if they refer to it, they

17 will glean from it that our client is using the alibi

18 Defence, and then, in addition to that we do have Rule

19 67, which Your Honours have amply clarified. Thank

20 you.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, on behalf of

22 the Defence of Mr. Zejnil Delalic, I thank you for your

23 understanding of the problems facing the Defence in

24 trying to call witnesses.

25 I believe that you know, and I believe that

1 your decision, which takes into account our problems,

2 is also consistent with our efforts to comply with the

3 decisions of this Court, and also with our efforts to

4 bring to this Trial Chamber those witnesses who will

5 not duplicate the evidence.

6 And also given the fact that some of the

7 witnesses that we were trying to call do have real

8 scheduling conflicts. The person that we just called

9 was on an official business trip in Austria. He

10 interrupted his trip to come here.

11 We will continue to make all the effort that

12 we can, and should we identify another witness whom we

13 can call for next week, we will immediately inform you

14 of that. Thank you for understanding.

15 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I must

16 apologise. It looks as though we have --

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You don't have to. You

18 know how communication -- and these things do happen.

19 JUDGE JAN: It happens. The court has

20 thousands of pages. One can miss.

21 MR. NIEMANN: I apologise sincerely to

22 Mr. Olujic.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, I think

24 we are very certain that we had this period laid out

25 for your witnesses, and they have been there since

1 May. We've carried on having your witnesses, and we

2 thought perhaps this last lap should not have given us

3 any difficulty at all. And we'll have to carry on.

4 Especially with the fact that you are unable to bring

5 your witnesses -- we'll carry on, do it's best.

6 We've tried to accommodate everyone, and we

7 continue to do so, but if you are unable, then accused

8 with similar status on Defence -- then we concluded

9 this in the way we designed it. I think this is all we

10 have to say. As I say, we'll try and impress on the

11 victims and witnesses you need to do your best to

12 accommodate your demand. Thank you very much.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

14 5.50 p.m., to be reconvened on

15 Friday, the 5th day of June, 1998.

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