Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12933

1 --- Friday, 5 June, 1998

2 --- On resuming at 10.00 a.m.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

4 gentlemen. May we have the appearances, please.

5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, please, my name

6 is Niemann, and I appear with my colleagues,

7 Ms. McMurrey, Mr. Turone, and Mr. Huber for the

8 Prosecution, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Appearances for the

10 Defence.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

12 I am Edina Residovic, Defence Counsel for Mr. Zejnil

13 Delalic, along with my colleague, Eugene O'Sullivan,

14 professor from Canada. Thank you.

15 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I

16 am Zeljko Olujic, Defence Counsel for Mr. Zdravko

17 Mucic, along with my colleague, Niko Duric, attorney

18 from Croatia. Thank you.

19 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I

20 am Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, Defence

21 Counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic.

22 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours,

23 I am Cynthia McMurrey, and along with my colleague,

24 Nancy Boler, we represent Esad Landzo.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the witness

Page 12934

1 now.

2 (The witness entered court)

3 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

4 are still under oath.


6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, your

7 witness.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I completed the

9 examination of this witness.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination?

11 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honour, Defence for

12 Mr. Mucic does not have any questions of this witness.

13 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, the Defence of

14 Mr. Hazim Delic does not have any questions of this

15 witness.

16 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, the Defence of

17 Esad Landzo does has no questions for this witness

18 either. Thank you.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Prosecution, any

20 questions?


22 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann

23 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.

24 Q. Mr. Alic, did you have or have you ever had a

25 nickname or street name of Sokol, S-O-K-O-L?

Page 12935

1 A. Yes, it is correct.

2 Q. During the war, and possibly afterwards, did

3 you know Mr. Delalic having a name or being referred to

4 as Oganj?

5 A. In my knowledge, he used a code name of Ikar

6 in one operation.

7 Q. Did you ever know him by the name of Oganj?

8 A. No. I believe an operation was called Oganj.

9 Q. You never at any stage wrote to him in a

10 private capacity, after the war, and addressed a letter

11 to him as Oganj and signed it Sokol?

12 A. I cannot recall that.

13 Q. Now, I think Judge Jan raised a matter

14 yesterday, but I'm not certain that we ever got a clear

15 answer to it. I might ask you the same question again,

16 for the purposes of this record. Were you aware of all

17 the orders, both written and oral, transmitted to or by

18 Mr. Delic during 1992?

19 A. Of course I could not know all of it. I

20 could know only a part.

21 Q. You said that in May, 1992 the JNA and SDS

22 forces attacked Hadzici. What do you mean by SDS

23 forces?

24 A. Organised and armed units consisting of

25 mainly Serb population, which were then formed into

Page 12936

1 a party of SDS. Prior to that they had training in the

2 JNA barracks, they were already prepared, and learned

3 how to block transportation routes and all the

4 important strategic sites overlooking the town of

5 Hadzici.

6 Q. Did they operate under any particular name,

7 that you know of?

8 A. No. Those were SDS forces. I know how we

9 would call them, but I don't know their names.

10 Q. Now, did the JNA and SDS forces work together

11 during the attack on Hadzici?

12 A. Yes, it is correct.

13 Q. During the course of the war in 1992, did you

14 or members -- or people under your command ever take

15 prisoners?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where and when did you take these prisoners?

18 A. In the liberation action of Trnovo and the

19 Operation Strajiste.

20 Q. Who under your command actually took the

21 prisoners?

22 A. That was combat soldiers advanced, and then

23 the enemy surrenders, so I cannot name the soldiers who

24 would do that. These would be the units attacking and

25 capturing enemy soldiers.

Page 12937

1 Q. And when the prisoners were taken, where were

2 they kept in prison --

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: I do not see the relevance of

4 these questions in connection to this witness.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose it follows

6 from his own answers, his earlier answers.


8 Q. Where were the prisoners taken to?

9 A. We would then hand them over to the police

10 units, who would then take care of them.

11 Q. Do you know all of the units that were

12 subordinated to TG-1 when Mr. Delalic was the

13 commander?

14 A. I believe I can recall them, but I can't

15 really claim that I will remember them all, but I do

16 know the units. I might omit one or two, but I can

17 list them, if you want me to.

18 Q. I would be grateful if you would, and

19 certainly after all this time I wouldn't expect you to

20 remember all of them. So if you can assist us with

21 those that you can remember, I would be grateful.

22 A. TG-1 and its commander Zejnil Delalic had a

23 possibility to use the units of the municipal staffs of

24 Jablanica, Konjic, and the municipal staff of the TO of

25 Hadzici. In the meantime, there were units from other

Page 12938

1 municipal staffs who were subordinated to me, and

2 possibly to Mr. Delalic and TG-1. For that reason I

3 cannot recall all of them, because we have units from

4 Vakuf, Zenica, from Rijeka, Krajina.

5 Q. Are you aware whether all of the members of

6 these particular units were part of the command of

7 TG-1, or were only part of the members of these units

8 part of that command? Now, that may be a confusing

9 question. If it is, please say so, and I'll come

10 back. Did you hear my question?

11 A. I did not understand the question, so I

12 expected that you would continue.

13 Q. Okay. Sorry.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, Mr. Niemann, don't

15 you think this detail is better for the witness who is

16 regarded as his chief of staff?

17 MR. NIEMANN: I don't necessarily need to

18 press it with this witness, Your Honours. I just

19 wanted to explore it with him. But I agree. I'll move

20 on, Your Honours.

21 Q. Do you know any of the members of the command

22 of TG-1 when Mr. Delalic was the commander; during the

23 time you knew him and were with him, did you know any

24 of the members and, if so, can you tell us who they

25 were?

Page 12939

1 A. I know Mr. Pilica Sucro, who was the head of

2 staff. I know him best of all the others. And then

3 the artillery head, I used to know him, but I can't

4 recall his name right now. Then the communications

5 head also I cannot recall. I'm not very good with

6 names.

7 Q. Thank you. That's fine. I just asked you

8 some questions about -- in the beginning about your

9 nickname, Sokol, and so forth. I just want to show you

10 a document that I would ask the usher to give to you,

11 and just looking at the Bosnian version of that

12 document.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Could we please have a copy?

14 MR. NIEMANN: Pass that to Ms. Residovic.

15 She's seen the documents as part of the material

16 discovered to them.

17 Q. I don't want to go into details of this

18 personal letter of yours, but I just want you to tell

19 me whether the name of the person arrested and who

20 signed it, but I don't want to go into the details.

21 Just looking at that document, does that appear to be

22 your writing?

23 A. This is my writing.

24 Q. And it's signed by you as Sokol, is it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12940

1 Q. And am I right in saying it's addressed to

2 Herr Oganj?

3 A. That is also correct.

4 Q. And that's a reference to Mr. Delalic, isn't

5 it?

6 A. This was back in 1994. It could be that I

7 have used that -- I don't know for which exact reason.

8 Maybe this was just an association in connection to the

9 action I have mentioned. And you can also see from the

10 letter that it's got social character.

11 Q. It is personal letter, and that's why I don't

12 want to go into the detail of it, but certainly you may

13 read, just to yourself, read through it and see whether

14 you can remember it. My only interest in it is whether

15 you wrote to Mr. Delalic and called him Oganj.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Does it really mean

17 much, whether he could assume a particular name?

18 MR. NIEMANN: It means a lot, Your Honour,

19 when we look at the documents.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Because I know so many

21 people who have nicknames to which they have no

22 relation to.

23 MR. NIEMANN: Well, Your Honours, it does go

24 to the documents that were discovered in Austria. It

25 does go very much germane to those.

Page 12941

1 Q. My question is you were writing to

2 Mr. Delalic in that letter, weren't you? Would you say

3 "yes" or "no", because we need to get it on the

4 transcript.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you referred to him here as Herr Oganj?

7 A. I already explained that.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you.

9 Your Honours, I tender that, but not for the

10 contents of it. It's a personal letter, I don't think

11 that it's necessary that the personal details be

12 exposed, but just with reference to the name and the

13 signature on the bottom.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone not on) --

15 put it to him in cross-examination. Don't you think

16 that is sufficient?

17 MR. NIEMANN: I won't press it, Your Honour.

18 I won't press it.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is admitted he

20 referred to him as such, even if in a --

21 MR. NIEMANN: If it becomes an issue later

22 on, Your Honours, I can deal with it then.

23 JUDGE JAN: If you are referring to person

24 who has taken part in a particular operation. Just

25 call him by that name, not that only that it is his

Page 12942

1 nickname.

2 MR. NIEMANN: Whatever it is, I wouldn't

3 know. There is some uncertainty as to why the name

4 Oganj was used, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE JAN: Also --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone Your Honour.

7 MR. NIEMANN: That's true.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: In any case, Your Honours,

9 you have maybe made your decision, but I wanted to

10 express our objection to this.

11 MR. NIEMANN: I don't press the tendering of

12 it, Your Honours, and I have no further questions.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. Any

14 re-examination of this witness?

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: (No translation).

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is the end of your

17 testimony. Thank you very much, we are very grateful

18 for your assistance. Can we have your next witness?

19 You are discharged, please.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning. Could we

22 please call for witness Pilica Sucro.

23 (The witness entered court)

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please swear the

25 witness.

Page 12943

1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

3 truth.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Take your seat, please.

5 WITNESS: Pilica Sucro

6 Examined by Ms. Residovic.

7 Q. Good morning, sir.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. Could you please introduce yourself by

10 stating your full name to the Chamber.

11 A. My name is Pilica Sucro.

12 Q. Mr. Pilica, can you tell us where and when

13 you were born?

14 A. I was born April 5th, 1953 in the Village of

15 Mirojevici, area of Bistrica, and Bijela Polje (phoen),

16 Montenegro.

17 Q. Where do you live, Mr. Pilica?

18 A. I now reside in Sarajevo.

19 Q. Mr. Pilica, can you tell us about your formal

20 education?

21 A. After the elementary school, I completed high

22 school, then the military academy in the former JNA.

23 That would be my education for now.

24 Q. What is your rank now, Mr. Pilica?

25 A. I am a Colonel in the Army of

Page 12944

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 Q. Colonel, please tell the Chamber where were

3 you on April 6th, 1992, when the aggression against

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina began?

5 A. On April 6, 1992, I was in Kiseljak. I was

6 there with the former JNA.

7 Q. What rank did you hold in the former JNA,

8 Mr. Pilica?

9 A. I was a Major.

10 Q. Colonel, did you at any given moment during

11 1992, join the defence forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. The Chamber already has sufficient evidence

14 concerning the legislation of the newly formed state

15 concerning its armed forces formation and

16 establishment. That's why I will not ask you these

17 questions. But could you tell us what were your first

18 military operations in April, 1992, as a member of the

19 TO?

20 A. My first duty, which was of a short period,

21 only several days, was sort of a military counsel to

22 the municipal staff of Kata (phoen). That was only for

23 several days.

24 Q. Mr. Pilica, did at any time during 1992 --

25 form a Tactical Group 1, was it formed, and did you

Page 12945

1 perform any tasks as a member of it?

2 A. Yes, I am familiar with its establishment.

3 TG-1 was founded and I was deputy commander of it. I

4 also had the task as the head of staff. Since this was

5 a small command post, there were instances where I was

6 also in charge of operations.

7 Q. Who appointed you to this post?

8 A. I was appointed to this post by the staff of

9 the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina at that

10 time, that is, the superior command. And it was the

11 highest command which dealt with military or was in

12 charge of military matters in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 Q. Mr. Pilica, can you recall when you started

14 with your duty as deputy commander or as the chief of

15 staff of the Tactical Group 1?

16 A. Yes, I can recall. This was on 12 May 1992.

17 Q. May the witness please be shown document

18 P183? Is it D1? May the English version please be

19 placed on the ELMO.

20 JUDGE JAN: Put the lights on, the light on

21 the ELMO.


23 Q. Colonel, is this the document of your

24 appointment, and did you personally supply this

25 document to the Defence in this case?

Page 12946

1 A. Yes, this is the document you are referring

2 to, and I personally submitted it to the Defence, at

3 their request.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, since the

5 witness has recognised this document as his own, and it

6 is relevant for these proceedings, I move to admit it

7 into evidence.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's admitted.


10 Q. In this document, Mr. Pilica, there is no

11 date of issue, however, you told me that you started on

12 your duty on 12 May 1992. Is it correct that that was

13 the date on which you started your duties?

14 A. Yes, that is correct.

15 Q. Who was your first commander, Mr. Pilica?

16 A. My first commander was Mustafa Polutak,

17 currently General in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Q. What was your Tactical Group tasked with?

19 A. Our Tactical Group was tasked with lifting of

20 the siege of Sarajevo.

21 Q. Mr. Pilica, can you tell me whether, in the

22 course of carrying out this task, what was the first

23 operation which your Tactical Group conducted, and in

24 which area or direction did it take place?

25 A. One of the first attempts at breaking through

Page 12947

1 the ring around Sarajevo was in the area Koscanj, that

2 is a village near Hadzici, Batalo Brdo, Rakovica, and

3 if you continued in that direction you go to Sarajevo.

4 Q. Colonel, can you remember when this took

5 place?

6 A. This took place in the latter half of May,

7 1992.

8 Q. Were certain units from Konjic also involved

9 in this task at that time?

10 A. No, not in that attempt.

11 Q. Colonel, can you remember, given the area of

12 your activity, whether, at some subsequent attempt at

13 lifting of the siege of Sarajevo, units from Konjic did

14 take part?

15 A. Yes, I can remember. This was in the middle

16 of June, 1992, in the area Pazaric, Hadzici, Sarajevo,

17 and in this attempt there was a unit from Konjic, that

18 is from the territory of the Municipality of Konjic,

19 which took part in it.

20 Q. Mr. Pilica, a moment ago we saw the order of

21 your appointment. In the same order Mr. Mustafa Gagula

22 was appointed. Can you tell me who was in charge of

23 appointing commanders of Tactical Groups?

24 A. It was only the superior command in this

25 period. It was the main staff of the armed forces of

Page 12948

1 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 Q. Was the commander of Tactical Group or could

3 the commander of Tactical Group appoint members of the

4 Tactical Group staff?

5 A. He could not appoint anyone to duties or to

6 posts, any members of the Tactical Group, but he could

7 nominate and also select people with whom he wanted to

8 work. His nominations would be sent to the superior

9 command through different means of communication, and

10 following that -- for the most part the orders would

11 reflect those nominations and the commanding staff of

12 the Tactical Group 1 would be appointed in such way.

13 Q. Colonel, can you tell me how long you were in

14 this -- on this duty of the deputy commander of

15 Tactical Group 1?

16 A. I was on this duty until 10 October 1992.

17 Q. A moment ago you said that your Tactical

18 Group was tasked with an attempt to lift the siege of

19 Sarajevo. Throughout the period of time while you were

20 chief of staff of the Tactical Group 1, was this the

21 only task of your Tactical Group? Did it remain the

22 only one?

23 A. Yes, it did. From the beginning to end, it

24 was a task -- it was the main task of the Tactical

25 Group, of this group, and of course during this period

Page 12949

1 of time, while I was on this duty, as I stated, it was

2 the case, and even thereafter until the Tactical Group

3 was dissolved.

4 Q. Colonel, did the command of your Tactical

5 Group have a large command or was it a very developed

6 command with many different bodies?

7 A. The principles of organisation of a Tactical

8 Group are such that it is a temporary formation. It

9 was established for specific tasks and, of course, it

10 had a number of officers needed to carry out these

11 tasks. Our Tactical Group had a small staff, and this

12 number varied, basically, between five to eight members

13 throughout the time -- the period within which the

14 Tactical Group existed.

15 Q. Colonel, we are not soldiers, but so far we

16 have learned that certain units were subordinate to you

17 in order for you to be able to carry out your task. As

18 a chief of staff of Tactical Group 1 in this period,

19 can you tell me how it was that you carried out your

20 tasks in practice, or how were certain units placed

21 under the Tactical Group command in practice?

22 A. Our first task within these activities was to

23 visit all the units under the command of the municipal

24 staffs in order to gather as comprehensive information

25 as possible about the size of troops, the training.

Page 12950

1 Q. Can you please just hold on a second.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,

3 please.


5 Q. Will you please go on, sir. You started

6 explaining how you went about putting together the

7 troops that you needed for -- in order to carry out

8 your tasks.

9 A. When we received complete information on the

10 available troops and resources, we would plan our

11 combat operations within the framework of our task, and

12 we proposed to the superior command the way in which

13 they should be engaged and used.

14 Q. Colonel, did the superior command, and as I

15 understood you, this was the supreme command of the

16 armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did the superior

17 command then issue orders to you which units were

18 supposed to become subordinate to your command, that is

19 of the Tactical Group?

20 A. Yes, of course. After they received our

21 proposals and elaborated plans, the superior command

22 would issue an order, or a decision; which units will,

23 from the municipal staffs of defence would be engaged

24 in the proposed combat operations.

25 Of course, these orders would then reach our

Page 12951

1 command and these were orders which pointed --

2 indicated what our further involvement and use of these

3 forces would be.

4 Q. Colonel, after this order by the supreme

5 command, did the municipal staff, which was supposed to

6 set aside units, issue their own orders specifying

7 which units are to be subordinate to you?

8 A. Yes, that is correct. The municipal staff

9 would order its own units to place themselves under our

10 command for a certain period, and for certain combat

11 operations.

12 Q. Colonel, the other units who were -- which

13 were not included in these orders of the staff, under

14 whose command did they remain?

15 A. They remained in the zones of responsibility

16 of the municipal defence staffs, and they were engaged

17 and deployed according to their own plans.

18 Q. Colonel, can you tell me, where was the seat

19 of your Tactical Group, that is Tactical Group 1?

20 A. In our military parlance we call it a command

21 post, so the command post of the Tactical Group 1 was

22 from the beginning to the end of its existence in

23 Pazaric, in the Pazaric barracks, to be more specific.

24 Q. Colonel, can you tell me, did there come a

25 time in 1992 when Zejnil Delalic became commander of

Page 12952

1 the Tactical Group 1?

2 A. Yes, there did come a time.

3 Q. If you can recall, can you tell me when

4 Mr. Delalic assumed his command duty in Pazaric, that

5 is, when did you turn over your duties to him, that is,

6 when did you show him everything that he needed to know

7 in Pazaric?

8 A. I recall that time, I recall those days. It

9 was around 27 July 1992 that we heard that Zejnil

10 Delalic was to take over the command of the Tactical

11 Group 1, and he actually took over on 30 July 1992, and

12 this happened in such a manner that he came to the

13 command post where we did everything that was necessary

14 in order to take over the command.

15 And from there on throughout the period of my

16 staying -- which was 10 October 1992, he remained on

17 duty as commander of Tactical Group 1.

18 Q. Colonel, do you recall where Mr. Polutak

19 went, based on this order of, as you recall, 27 July

20 1992?

21 A. Of course I do remember. We are very good

22 friends. He went to a new duty, which was larger, a

23 bigger duty. He moved to the superior command, to a

24 part of it, which at that time was located in Visoko.

25 And we called it the Forward Command Post of the main

Page 12953

1 staff of the armed forces of the Republic of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 Q. Colonel, you probably also know who was the

4 commander of this Forward Command Post and, if you do,

5 can you please give us that name?

6 A. This was our current commander, General

7 Rasim Delic.

8 Q. Colonel, are you absolutely sure that

9 Mr. Delalic was only appointed on the 27th and took

10 over command on 30 July?

11 A. I was only sure when I saw the order of his

12 appointment to commander of the Tactical Group, and

13 this was on the 8th August 1992, that is, several days

14 later. Even though we knew and we believed that he was

15 officially appointed commander of the Tactical Group 1,

16 even when we first heard that he was appointed to this

17 duty, and I mentioned a date, that the date was 27

18 July.

19 Q. Thank you. Until 27 July, are you absolutely

20 certain that the duty of the commander of Tactical

21 Group 1 was carried out by Mr. Mustafa Polutak?

22 A. Not only until the 27th, but until the 30th

23 of July. Polutak was officially commander of the

24 Tactical Group 1, that is until the date when I -- as I

25 stated, the command was transferred. And this was at a

Page 12954

1 command post in Pazaric.

2 Q. This is a hypothetical question, Colonel. If

3 someone was to tell you or show you a document,

4 according to which Mr. Zejnil Delalic was commander of

5 Tactical Group 1 on 18 July, what would you say to

6 that?

7 A. I do not know. I did not see such a

8 document, such appointment. Personally, I did not see

9 such document. The first appointment which was in

10 written form, I told you when I saw it. I told you the

11 date. And it did arrive at the command post of the

12 Tactical Group.

13 Q. Now, you are completely certain that

14 Commander Polutak was carrying out his duty until the

15 date that you mentioned, 27th, that is the 30th of

16 July?

17 A. Yes, I am absolutely certain.

18 Q. Thank you. After Mr. Delalic took over the

19 duties of commander of Tactical Group 1 on 30 July, did

20 you, Mr. Pilica, at that time inform him of an order

21 that a gun from Konjic was to be transferred to the

22 zone of your operation?

23 A. Of course I did inform him of that, and this

24 gun is an event that is a good reminder of the events

25 of that period, because my speciality is artillery and

Page 12955

1 even a single gun in that period meant a lot for me.

2 Q. Colonel, do you remember whether, with

3 respect to the transfer of this artillery piece, there

4 were certain problems with the municipal staff in

5 Konjic?

6 A. Yes, there were. There were -- the problem

7 was a sizeable one.

8 Q. Did the municipal staff try to verify whether

9 this order actually came from the supreme command?

10 A. Of course they did verify, because they are

11 under the command of the supreme command, and not under

12 our command. So that's one issue. And the other issue

13 was that they badly needed this artillery piece to

14 carry out their own combat tasks in their zone.

15 However, when they saw that this was an order

16 from the commander Sefer Halilovic, they did not

17 continue having a problem with it, and this artillery

18 piece was transferred to its new destination, which was

19 set by the supreme command, and I personally was

20 involved in organising the transfer of this piece to

21 its new emplacement.

22 Q. Colonel, when Mr. Delalic took over the duty

23 from Mr. Polutak, did he also take over the same combat

24 task given to Mr. Polutak?

25 A. Yes. Exact same task.

Page 12956

1 Q. Colonel, you said that you had a first

2 attempt at lifting the siege in May, then the second in

3 June, and then in this second one some units from

4 Konjic took part.

5 Can you tell me, at that period when these

6 certain units from Konjic were involved and Mr. Polutak

7 was in charge, did Mr. Delalic have any command

8 responsibilities with respect to these units from

9 Konjic which were subordinate to you during this period

10 in 1992?

11 A. I know that he did not have any command

12 duties, and that during this period he engaged, among

13 other tasks, of which I am not aware, but I know that

14 he was supplying -- that he had supplied the unit which

15 was sent to us for this combat operation, and he

16 supplied them in terms of clothes, footwear. And I

17 remember that it was the best equipped unit that we

18 had.

19 This had a special impact in combat moral and

20 psychologically. And I think in turn it had an effect

21 that during that period it was the only unit who

22 actually carried out its task. And to us soldiers,

23 this meant that it had been well prepared, both in

24 terms of the equipment and its morale, and in terms of

25 professional military training.

Page 12957

1 Q. Thank you, Colonel. When Mr. Delalic took

2 over the duty, during that time or some other time

3 whilst you were his chief of staff, do you know that

4 Mr. Delalic was a commander of all the formations

5 within your area of activity?

6 A. I heard of it, but I never saw anything in a

7 written form. For us soldiers, there is no such an

8 order stating commander of all the formations, and we

9 did not accept it in the military meaning of it. I

10 never saw such a document.

11 Q. Colonel, you have heard of it, but did

12 Mr. Delalic, was he ever a commander of all the

13 formations, or did he have exactly the same authorities

14 as Mr. Polutak?

15 A. He was never a commander of all the

16 formations. He had duties and tasks identical to the

17 ones performed by the former commander, Mustafa

18 Polutak.

19 Q. Since you have told us that you did not see

20 the document, I will not show it to you, but I will

21 show you another one and ask of you the same question,

22 whether you have ever seen it. Can the witness be

23 shown document D145/6/4, page 896?

24 Colonel, have you ever seen this document?

25 A. No, never.

Page 12958

1 Q. Can the witness be shown document D146/1?

2 Colonel, during 1992 did you see this

3 document?

4 A. Yes, I did. This is a document that came to

5 our command, which gave us the final written proof of

6 Mr. Zejnil Delalic as a commander of TG-1. It is

7 signed by the President of the Republic of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, as the

9 supreme commander of the armed forces.

10 Q. You can see at the top, the date of issue of

11 the order, and you also see the date of filing around

12 sendout, which was August 17th. Since the Chamber, by

13 this time, has a picture of how documents and orders

14 were transmitted, my question to you is: During 1992

15 were there occasions that one document comes somewhat

16 later, or that a latter document comes before the one

17 that was dated earlier?

18 A. Yes, it was possible, because we had very

19 poor communications. It would happen that sometimes a

20 certain document would be transmitted very quickly,

21 either through a messenger or through some other means

22 which we would have to choose, but the largest number

23 of orders would be transmitted through radio

24 communications. For a brief period of time at the

25 beginning of the war we had telephone links, but at the

Page 12959

1 period of Delalic's command there were no telephone

2 lines, because, in the area of the town of Hadzici,

3 railroads were blown up by the enemy, damaging the

4 telephone lines. And we were unable to use it from

5 then on.

6 Q. Colonel, you have stated clearly that by the

7 order of the supreme command, a part of units were

8 subordinated to you, also on the basis of that you said

9 that municipal staffs under the order of the main staff

10 subordinated equipment to you.

11 During the time when you were the chief of

12 staff of TG-1, was there an obligation put on municipal

13 staffs, following the order of the supreme command, for

14 those municipal staffs to forward to you intelligence

15 data?

16 A. Yes. Because we as a temporary command did

17 not have means or personnel who would gather

18 intelligence about the enemy. We usually had only one

19 officer who would coordinate this work and take care of

20 the fulfilment of that particular task. Therefore, all

21 the data necessary to ask you to carry out our tasks

22 had to be gathered through municipal staffs, i.e. their

23 bodies and units. To remind the Chamber that these

24 were data about the enemy, from the front line to the

25 back -- to the rear of the enemy. It was very seldom a

Page 12960

1 counterintelligence activity in our area.

2 Q. Colonel, since we have already heard about

3 the preparations for operation JUG and so on, were

4 there some unpleasant surprises, that is the enemy

5 activities within your area during your preparations

6 for the operations, and did such surprises cause you to

7 react and to look to communicate with the supreme

8 command?

9 A. Yes, there were such cases. There were

10 activities of reconnaissance and sabotage units by the

11 enemy in the area of the front-line and deeper into our

12 area. And the example that was most severe was the

13 wounding of Mr. Catic Djuberko, and the killing of Jozo

14 Fadil as well as wounding of other people who were in

15 that mission.

16 Their task was the one of reconnaissance

17 during the preparation phase for the operation JUG.

18 The presidency of our state and the city of Sarajevo

19 expected a lot from that particular operation. That

20 was an operation that was being prepared for a long

21 time, it was of crucial importance, and we expected to

22 lift the siege finally.

23 Q. Can we now move on from the preparation for

24 the operation. This incident that you mentioned that

25 was very shattering to you. After it, in your personal

Page 12961

1 knowledge, did there come a directive or an order from

2 the supreme command which was aimed at strengthening

3 the obligation of municipal staffs, in view of

4 co-operation -- their co-operation with Tactical Groups

5 in relation to intelligence data and other issues

6 connected to those bodies?

7 A. Yes, of course. Even earlier we undertook

8 some measures concerning intelligence at all levels.

9 And we were also bound by certain rules and manuals,

10 but after this particular incident reaction was very

11 resolute, and it also came from the level of our

12 supreme command, from their bodies, resulting in

13 additional directives and warnings concerning

14 intelligence providing.

15 Q. Can the witness now be shown P244, the

16 evidence for the Prosecution. I apologise, 224. I may

17 have said the wrong number.

18 Colonel, could you quickly read through the

19 document. I do not want you to authenticate it,

20 because you have said before the Chamber that you left

21 TG-1 on October 10th, but in relation to what you have

22 said earlier, I would have a few questions in regard to

23 it.

24 Colonel, does this document have any

25 relation, or does it stem out of a particular directive

Page 12962

1 from the supreme command concerning the obligations of

2 municipal staffs that you have mentioned -- that you

3 personally saw?

4 A. Yes, this is a usual military reaction, which

5 was aimed at more serious understanding of the problem,

6 and it stems directly out of directives of the supreme

7 command staff of the BiH Army.

8 Q. Thank you. Could you please look at the

9 date. It states November 14th, 1992. Colonel,

10 regardless of the fact that you left for another post,

11 another duty, did you know that during that time there

12 were again intense preparations for another attempt of

13 lifting of the siege of Sarajevo, and the same area

14 between Igman towards -- between Igman and Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes, I am familiar with it, because my next

16 duty after TG was chief of staff and deputy commander

17 of a brigade in the Visoko front line, and one of their

18 basic tasks was also to try to lift the siege of

19 Sarajevo from their side, and concerning intelligence

20 data and security, all of us outside the ring had the

21 duty to cooperate and exchange data.

22 Q. Thank you. Did you know that this next

23 attempt, which was not performed by Tactical Groups,

24 because by that time they were non-existent any more,

25 was it December of 1992, if can you recall?

Page 12963

1 A. From the area of Visoko municipality, there

2 was an attempt. I also know that --

3 JUDGE JAN: We are not concerned with that

4 please confine yourself to the duties of Mr. Delalic as

5 TG-1. Ask him his relations with the Konjic

6 administration.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, since this is a

8 document signed allegedly by my client, we had to know

9 whether he had the authority and what was the cause of

10 it, and the witness had explained the seriousness of

11 preparations for the third attempt --

12 JUDGE JAN: We've had enough of that

13 (Microphone not on) the task of lifting the siege of

14 Sarajevo. Intelligence was required, so issued

15 directions in accordance with the directive given by

16 the supreme command.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: As chief of staff of

18 Delalic. That was why you called him.


20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So let's have the

21 evidence related to such details --


23 Q. As the chief of staff, do you know whether

24 Mr. Delalic had the authority to turn to a municipal

25 staff for the carrying out of such tasks?

Page 12964

1 A. Yes, he did.

2 Q. Concerning paragraph 6, which you can take a

3 look at. Did the commander have the authority to

4 punish municipal chiefs of staff, and what was his

5 authority if his request was not met?

6 A. He had no right to punish chiefs of staff and

7 municipal staffs, but, what he could do, he could

8 submit a report to a superior command in relation to

9 not meeting the duties, not performing the tasks, and

10 not cooperating with him.

11 Q. The interpretation was that he could not

12 punish the chief of staff, and the witness said the

13 commander of the staff. The difference is only between

14 the chief and the commander. Did you say that, that he

15 could not punish commanders?

16 A. Commanders of municipal defence staffs,

17 because it relates to them.

18 Q. Colonel, did Mr. Delalic, during his command

19 of TG-1, have authority to appoint or dismiss

20 commanders of municipal staffs or their members?

21 A. No, he did not. He could propose certain

22 changes to a superior command, but he personally did

23 not have the authority.

24 Q. Colonel, did your Tactical Group, during the

25 command of Mr. Polutak, and particularly during the

Page 12965

1 command of Mr. Zejnil Delalic, have any authority over

2 institutions such as schools, prisons, hospitals, or

3 any other institutions?

4 A. No, never.

5 Q. Did Mr. Delalic, at any time while you were

6 there, meaning the 10th of October, or maybe later if

7 you know, receive any particular authorisation to have

8 a duty or an authority over a prison?

9 A. No, he did not.

10 Q. During the command of Mr. Polutak, and

11 particularly during the command of Mr. Delalic, as a

12 commander of TG-1, did he or other commanders used to

13 transmit orders of the supreme command to municipal

14 staffs or to some other institutions which were in your

15 area of activity, or in some other area which would be

16 outside or remote from the first ring, the first line

17 of the blockade?

18 A. Yes, there were such cases during the command

19 of Mr. Polutak, as well as during the command of

20 Mr. Delalic.

21 Q. Can the witness be shown documents D145,

22 annex 5-D/41 and annex 5-D/42, pages 813 and 818.

23 Could you please take a look at the document

24 dated August 24th, 1992. Can we have the document

25 dated 24th on the ELMO, because now we have the one

Page 12966

1 dated on the 28th.

2 Colonel, we can see that the date here is

3 August 24th, 1992. My first question to you would be:

4 Between the 20th and the end of August, was it a time

5 of intensive daily combat for your Tactical Group, or

6 was it a quiet period in the TG-1 activities?

7 A. This was a period of intensive combat in

8 connection to the operation JUG. And I have just

9 stated that this was an operation that we all expected

10 a lot from.

11 Q. Colonel, during that time did the commander

12 with all of the members of the command of TG-1, were

13 they at the front -- the first front line where the

14 combat was?

15 A. Yes, all the members of the command of TG-1

16 were at the -- at the observation post in Orman, or

17 another part of the command was in the command in

18 Pazarici, which was just behind the hill. We were all

19 very active, situation was complex, and every moment

20 was of grave importance. We even had air strikes,

21 fierce artillery activities, and so on.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, before I go on

23 with this document, could this be a good time for a

24 break?

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

Page 12967

1 rise and reassemble at noon.

2 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 12.10 a.m.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Before we start, I have

5 tried to get in touch with the Victims and Witnesses'

6 Unit. And I hear, Mr. Olujic, you have not been

7 cooperating with them. You have not given them a list

8 of your witnesses. They have not got any idea of who

9 those who you really want to contact and those who you

10 want them to deal with.

11 You perhaps might have tried today to see

12 them. Possibly they might be able to see what they can

13 do and some of your witnesses might not need, perhaps

14 visas and you likely can get them on short notice.

15 MR. OLUJIC: With your permission, Your

16 Honours, last night, after you've given us your

17 suggestion, I contacted my collaborators. However,

18 until this morning, I was unable to secure up until now

19 some witnesses for whom I could guarantee that they

20 would appear next week. And this is the reason why I

21 did not contact the Victims and Witnesses' unit, simply

22 because I was not in a position to either give them the

23 exact names, or their locations at which they are at

24 present because some of them are in the third

25 countries.

Page 12968

1 I have given myself a deadline until two

2 o'clock this afternoon, if I do not receive the

3 relevant information, unfortunately, we would not be

4 able to actually provide any witnesses which I have

5 suggested we may be able to provide.

6 There's still a small window of opportunity.

7 I am expecting some telephone calls early this

8 afternoon, but I assure you that we have done

9 everything that we can. Also, I want to assure you

10 that on 22nd, June, when it would be our turn and if

11 the Defence of the first accused do not have any

12 witnesses available, we would be able to provide some

13 witnesses and my colleague, Niko Djuric, did already

14 did make travel arrangements with some of the witnesses

15 for that period of time.

16 We also have to coordinate the appearance of

17 witnesses with the documents that we need to present at

18 the time of their testimony. So we are attempting to

19 comply as best we can. We will know by two o'clock

20 this afternoon and at 2.30, after the afternoon recess,

21 we will tell you whether we could or could not be in a

22 position to comply with our ruling.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't know how you got

24 your date of 22nd of June as the date you expected to,

25 the date the first accused is expected to start another

Page 12969

1 witness. That was not in the projection made by the

2 order of this Trial Chamber. So when the counsel

3 decides on its own in the exercise of its own

4 discretion, perhaps it might be misconceived and will

5 not fall in line with the realities of the situation.

6 What the Trial Chamber is doing is to exhaust

7 all evidence on all remedies for exercising our

8 discretion to manage the proceedings as much as justice

9 of the case demands. I think we've done enough for any

10 reasonable tribunal to assure our intention to carry on

11 with the proceedings according to the rules of this

12 Tribunal. So we have asked you if you could not, then

13 I suppose we come to the conclusion which is

14 inevitable.

15 We indicated what we would do. We do not

16 intend to spend next week without hearing evidence from

17 the witnesses of accused persons. We do not intend.

18 If we are compelled to do so, then we'll take the

19 normal procedure which should apply in such cases.

20 Thank you very much.

21 Will you kindly invite the witness.

22 (The witness entered court)

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please take your seat.

24 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

25 are still under oath.

Page 12970

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Ms.

2 Residovic.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Colonel, before the recess I asked you to

5 look at a document of 24 August. You said to my prior

6 questions that there was a practice that commanders did

7 transmit orders to other commands and commanders. Do

8 you know whether you personally in that you know from

9 that period of 1992, do you know anything about this

10 order that Mr. Zejnil Delalic sent to the municipal

11 staff in Konjic?

12 A. Yes, I do know of it.

13 Q. Can you tell me whether you personally

14 witnessed this order which Mr. Delalic received from

15 the supreme command in order to transmit it to the

16 municipal staff?

17 A. Yes, I was present there.

18 Q. Colonel, do you know under what circumstances

19 this order arrived? That is, on which duty were you

20 and Mr. Delalic at the time when this order arrived?

21 A. We were involved in the principal task of our

22 Tactical Group as well as our neighbouring groups. We

23 were engaged in the attempt to lift the siege of

24 Sarajevo. That is, we were engaged in the operation

25 JUG. And this was during the most dynamic period of

Page 12971

1 this operation.

2 Q. Is the English version of this order on the

3 ELMO? It may have been moved during the recess. Is it

4 still there, please?

5 A. I believe that is.

6 Q. Very well, thank you. Now I can see it on my

7 monitor too. So as you were saying, this was during

8 the most dynamic period of the Operation JUG, that Mr.

9 Delalic received the order to transmit it to the

10 municipal staff. Can you tell me what Mr. Delalic

11 specifically did at that time?

12 A. I do know what he did. Before he went to

13 carry out a task, which was part of the group that was

14 in charge of the Operation JUG, he dictated these

15 points of this document to a typist and he ordered that

16 his messenger, Irfan, that he be dispatched in a

17 vehicle to the municipal staff in Konjic as soon as

18 possible and that this document be handed to the

19 command of the municipal staff in Konjic.

20 And let me just add this. He quickly

21 sketched another couple of things that were on his mind

22 at the time and for which he believed that the

23 municipal staff should know of so that several

24 different issues are handled here, which gives a basis

25 for different courses of action.

Page 12972

1 Q. Colonel, will you please look at the

2 paragraph 5. Is this one of these points and what was

3 the connection? How was that connected with the

4 Tactical Group 1 of which you were a part and of which

5 Mr. Delalic was a commander?

6 A. This was part of the carrying out of the task

7 for the Operation JUG in the area of activity from

8 Bjelinici towards Kalinovik. And the objective was to

9 link up forces in that area and to facilitate the main

10 tasks of the operation JUG. So this was one of this

11 secondary areas with respect to Operation JUG.

12 Q. We've already heard that the Operation JUG

13 already had these secondary or ancillary areas of

14 operation. Was this area of the Municipality of Konjic

15 one of the of these secondary or ancillary areas with

16 respect to the operation JUG?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Would you now, please,

19 look at the document of 28 August 1992. And if you

20 will please place the English version of it on the

21 ELMO. Colonel, is this also one of the documents which

22 was transmitted to one of the bodies in the field?

23 A. Of course it is, you can see that right away

24 from the preamble of this document, which refers to the

25 order issued by the supreme command staff in Sarajevo

Page 12973

1 and it also gives the reference number. And it also

2 refers to a previous document which we saw just a

3 moment ago.

4 Q. Were you present when this document was

5 drafted or were you not?

6 A. I was not present when this document was

7 drafted and I was not familiar with it.

8 Q. Tell me this date, 28 August 1992, was this

9 also a period of very intensive operations, that is

10 minute by minute combat operations of your group?

11 A. Yes, it was.

12 Q. Thank you. We can remove the documents.

13 Colonel, can you now tell me whether Tactical Group 1

14 of which you were a chief of staff had authority to

15 approve or prohibit visits of international

16 organisations to the military facilities?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you know who had authority to issue such

19 permits?

20 A. I know that this was under the authority of

21 the main staff or the supreme command of the armed

22 forces.

23 Q. Colonel, a hypothetical question for you. If

24 you as a chief of staff of a Tactical Group, an

25 international organisation came to you in order to try

Page 12974

1 to organise such a visit, would you be in a position to

2 issue such a permit or would you be in a position to

3 respond in a different way?

4 A. Of course we could not have issued such a

5 permit. That is a commander of the Tactical Group

6 could not because it was not in his authority to do

7 so.

8 Q. But could the commander, or you personally,

9 mediate with the supreme command in order to obtain

10 such a permit?

11 A. Yes, we could do that within the limits of

12 the available time and the situation in which we were.

13 Q. Colonel do you have any information with

14 respect to the prison in Konjic?

15 A. No, I do not have any information, obviously,

16 during that period of time.

17 Q. Have you ever heard that Zejnil Delalic had

18 any relation to the prison or have you ever heard or

19 seen that he was given some kind of an order regarding

20 authority over any prison and especially Celebici?

21 A. I have never heard or seen anything of that

22 nature. And this issue was not part of the authority

23 of Tactical Group 1, with exception of the issue of

24 mediation, which we addressed a moment ago, which

25 happened on a couple of occasions. But that was not

Page 12975

1 really done.

2 Q. When you talk about mediation, that was a

3 comment on the document of the 24th?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. Did you have any other document relating to

6 the prison in the files of your command?

7 A. No, we did not have any.

8 Q. Colonel, even though you gave a certain

9 number, let me ask you again, did commander of Tactical

10 Group 1 at any point, at any single day during the time

11 when you were chief of staff there to appoint the

12 commander, staff, guards or anyone in the prison in

13 Celebici?

14 A. He was not authorised to do it and he did not

15 do it.

16 Q. Colonel, based on your personal knowledge,

17 can you tell the court whether the commander of

18 Tactical Group 1, whether it was Polutak or Delalic,

19 whether either of them ever appointed Zdravko Mucic

20 commander of the prison in Celebici?

21 A. Neither of them did appoint Zdravko Mucic

22 commander of the prison.

23 Q. While you were the chief of staff, can you

24 tell the court whether the commander of the prison, of

25 that prison or any other prison in the area in which

Page 12976

1 you were active in Konjic or other places where there

2 may have been active prisons, in other words, did the

3 commander of prison have an obligation to report to

4 Zejnil Delalic as commander of Tactical Group 1 and did

5 you ever see any such document or report at your

6 command in the files?

7 A. No, he did not have such an obligation and we

8 never received any such report.

9 Q. Did the international organisation have an

10 obligation to submit any reports of their visits to the

11 prisons and did you in the Tactical Group 1 command

12 ever receive any report by any international

13 organisation?

14 A. We never received any report by an

15 international organisation.

16 Q. Colonel, while you were chief of staff

17 between 12 May and 10 October, was the commander of

18 Tactical Group 1, either Mr. Polutak or Mr. Delalic,

19 authorised to appoint members of the military

20 investigative commission who conducted questioning of

21 prisoners in the prison?

22 A. They were not authorised for that, and they

23 did not do it.

24 Q. Colonel, can you tell me whether commander of

25 Tactical Group 1 was authorised to discipline military

Page 12977

1 or other persons who may have committed criminal acts

2 or other insubordination acts in the area of the Konjic

3 municipality?

4 A. Punishment or disciplining, as we call it,

5 was not part of the authority of the Tactical Group 1,

6 and we did not engage in that.

7 Q. Colonel, do you know whether Mr. Delalic, or

8 Mr. Polutak, as commanders of Tactical Group 1, had any

9 other authority over the Celebici prison which I have

10 not asked specifically in a separate question? In

11 other words, did they have any other authorities in

12 that regard as part of their duties?

13 A. They had no authority within the framework of

14 their duties with respect to Celebici.

15 Q. During the Operation JUG, if you remember,

16 because you were directly involved with combat units

17 and activities, did Tactical Group 1, during the

18 operation, have subordinated units which were coming

19 from Konjic?

20 A. Do you mean the municipal defence staff of

21 the Municipality of Konjic or some other units?

22 Q. Can you remember whether, during the

23 Operation JUG in the area of Orman and so forth, where

24 you were active, did you have a subordinate combat unit

25 from the municipal staff of Konjic?

Page 12978

1 A. No, not a single one.

2 Q. Colonel, do you know whether those units were

3 engaged at all in the Operation JUG and, if so, do you

4 know where they were engaged?

5 A. I know they were engaged in the Operation

6 JUG, but within the area of Trnovo, and the Trnovo

7 front line towards Krupac and further on towards

8 Sarajevo.

9 Q. Colonel, did at any time a guard or some

10 other member of staff in Celebici prison, was he

11 subordinated to the Tactical Group 1 at the time when

12 you were the chief of staff of it?

13 A. No, never.

14 Q. Colonel, do you know whether any of your

15 soldiers, who were subordinate to you during an

16 operation, go to Celebici and commit a crime there?

17 A. No, nobody did, because there was no need for

18 them to go there.

19 Q. While Zejnil Delalic was TG-1 commander, did

20 any of your soldiers commit a crime in some other

21 area? Do you have any knowledge of that?

22 A. Within the period of our command over those

23 units, or groups, there was no such case.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Colonel. I have

25 no further questions for this witness.

Page 12979

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Cross-examinations,

2 please.

3 MR. OLUJIC: No, Your Honours, we do not have

4 questions.

5 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, we do not have

6 questions either.

7 MS. McMURREY: The Defence of Esad Landzo has

8 no questions of this witness either. Thank you.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Cross-examination by the

10 Prosecution, please

11 MS. McHENRY: Good afternoon, Your Honours.

12 Yes, the Prosecution does have cross-examination.

13 Thank you.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,

15 please.

16 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry

17 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is Teresa

18 McHenry, and on behalf of the Prosecution I am going to

19 ask you some questions. I am going to ask that you

20 listen carefully to my questions and, if you don't

21 understand them, please just ask me to repeat or

22 rephrase. I'll also tell you that a number of

23 questions I am going to ask may just require a "yes" or

24 "no" answer, and you will not have to repeat things

25 you've already said in direct.

Page 12980

1 So if you can fairly answer a question with a

2 "yes" or "no", please do so, just so we can finish

3 more quickly.

4 A. (Nod).

5 JUDGE JAN: Don't nod your head. Say "yes"

6 or "no," because it has to be recorded here.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We would like to have --

8 THE WITNESS: I apologise. Yes.


10 Q. Sir, during the time that you were chief of

11 staff and Mr. Delalic was the commander of Tactical

12 Group 1, who were the other members of the staff?

13 A. There were as follows: Gagula Mustafa,

14 Turkovic, Kiba.

15 Q. What was the position of Mr. or

16 Ms. Turkovic?

17 A. It's a Ms. Turkovic. She was a typist. Then

18 Kazazic, Amir. He was an administrative officer.

19 Gagula Mustafa was assistant commander for logistics.

20 And for a brief period of time we also had Turcinovic.

21 We called him Zeka. Also for a brief period we had

22 Rekic, Sead, and later, after Turcinovic, we got

23 Selimovic. I cannot recall his first name. I will

24 eventually. This was the group. Later on we also had

25 Mr. Karic Salko, who, prior to that, was a member of

Page 12981

1 the municipal staff of Hadzici. Selimovic Hamid was

2 the name of the person. This was the command of TG-1,

3 at the moment of the hand-over of duties of a commander

4 of TG-1 when Mr. Delalic took over it.

5 Q. And then during the time that Mr. Delalic was

6 commander of Tactical Group 1, did all these people

7 remain in the command staff?

8 A. No, not all of them remained until the end as

9 members of the command.

10 Q. Instead of telling me which ones left, maybe

11 what you could do is please tell me who was a member of

12 the command staff in addition to the persons you've

13 already mentioned during any time that Mr. Delalic was

14 commander.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have a particular

16 person in mind, ask him that person, who was there at

17 the time. If you want to use that -- it would be more

18 difficult to remember this pertinent information. It's

19 so long a time.


21 Q. Sir, do you not remember who the members of

22 the command staff were during the time that Mr. Delalic

23 functioned as the commander?

24 A. I have mentioned those people already.

25 During the Operation JUG, Selimovic was temporarily

Page 12982

1 transferred to TG-2, due to specific tasks. And if I

2 can recall it correctly, for a brief period of time the

3 typist was also temporarily -- for a brief period of

4 time we had Habiba Veladzic, but I'm not certain about

5 her last name. I don't think there were any additional

6 changes to that. I have mentioned already that

7 Zeka left, and instead of him we got Selimovic.

8 Q. You mentioned during your direct testimony a

9 Mr. Irfan. What was his function?

10 A. Irfan was a driver to the Commander Delalic,

11 and in addition to that he would also perform messenger

12 tasks.

13 Q. And what is his last name? If you don't

14 know, that's fine. You can just say you don't know.

15 A. I'm not sure.

16 Q. And how about a Mr. Sultanovic or

17 Mr. Rizvanovic, were they members of the command staff

18 who may have been involved in communication issues?

19 A. Rizvanovic was one which was given to us for

20 additional help for a brief period of time, but I did

21 not see him as one of the members of our command.

22 Q. So there were people there who worked, in

23 effect, for the command, but were not officially

24 members of the command staff; is that correct?

25 A. There were individual cases, yes.

Page 12983

1 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, if I understand you

2 correctly, sir, Mr. Delalic was appointed on the 27th

3 of July, he started functioning on the 30th of July,

4 and then you saw his appointment on the 8th of August.

5 Did I understand you correctly in all respects?

6 A. That is correct, and I have said that on the

7 27th I heard that he was appointed, but I did not see

8 the written document concerning his appointment until

9 the 8th of August.

10 Q. And, of course, when Mr. Delalic came on the

11 30th, you, given that it was a wartime situation, you

12 were waging a war, you and the others accepted

13 Mr. Delalic's authority without requiring written proof

14 of his authorisation; is that correct?

15 A. I followed the orders of my then commander,

16 Polutak Mustafa. If he says that Zejnil Delalic is

17 appointed to his post, then all I can say is, "Yes, I

18 understand, commander."

19 Q. And then could I just ask that the witness be

20 shown D146 again.

21 Sir, is this the document that you saw on the

22 8th of August, or was it another document?

23 A. This is the document that I saw on August

24 8th.

25 Q. And are you sure it was the 8th you saw it,

Page 12984

1 rather than some day following the 8th?

2 A. I saw it on the 8th.

3 Q. And in the copy, the Bosnian copy that's

4 there, it doesn't actually bear the signature of

5 President Izetbegovic. In the copy that you saw, on

6 the 8th of August, did it actually have the President's

7 signature?

8 A. Yes, there was.

9 Q. Now, sir, given the communication problems

10 between Sarajevo and the field, was it an extraordinary

11 event that on the same day that the President signed

12 the document, you would receive it in the field?

13 A. If you have followed my previous statements

14 concerning communications, I accentuated that there

15 were various situations. It would happen that

16 documents would arrive immediately or with a short or a

17 longer, somewhat longer delay. Specifically, if you

18 are interested in this document, I received it, or we

19 received it, rather, by fax in Mount Igman in the Hotel

20 Borik. That's why I could see it right away. And

21 through radio communication, having in mind that

22 Mr. Delalic had already taken over the duty of the

23 commander, and also having in mind the story that there

24 is a certain piece of paper appointing a commander of

25 all formations, which was, of course, questionable to

Page 12985

1 us, we insisted then to receive a definite order as

2 soon as possible, because this was a very responsible

3 command post.

4 Q. Well, can you just explain this a little

5 more, sir. You indicated previously that when

6 Mr. Polutak told you he was commander, and you accepted

7 it without requiring anything more, can you then just

8 explain how was it that you heard about this order for

9 all formations and who it was who insisted that there

10 be clarification? Were you yourself involved in

11 insisting that there be clarification?

12 A. That was not me. I would receive all the

13 information from the commander, Polutak, and what I

14 have just said was the case when I was present, and it

15 did not happen upon my initiative.

16 Q. Well, from whom did you hear that the

17 previous order had all units?

18 A. I was told that by Commander Polutak.

19 Q. Okay. And did Mr. Polutak indicate that --

20 well, let me just move on. And when was it that you

21 heard -- was it on the 30th of July that you heard

22 about this from Mr. Polutak?

23 A. I apologise. I do not understand the

24 question.

25 Q. I'm sorry, sir. You indicate that it was

Page 12986

1 from Mr. Polutak that you heard that Mr. Delalic had

2 been appointed head of all formations, and I am asking

3 when was it that you received this information from

4 Mr. Polutak?

5 A. First of all, this was not all formations,

6 but all the armed forces, all the forces, which is not

7 Tactical Group 1. And I have heard that for the first

8 time around the 27th, as I have stated. Those were the

9 days when one could hear talk about it.

10 Q. And if you know, did Mr. Polutak see a copy

11 of Mr. Delalic's appointment, or do you know how

12 Mr. Polutak received his information?

13 A. He was appointed on the 8th of August. He

14 saw it personally.

15 Q. I'm sorry, sir. My question was: When,

16 around the 27th of July, you heard from Mr. Polutak

17 that Mr. Delalic had been named head of all armed

18 forces, do you know how Mr. Polutak had received that

19 information? For instance, do you know if Mr. Polutak

20 saw an appointment order dated the 27th of July?

21 A. I do not know that.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the transcript

23 reads he saw it personally. That was his answer to the

24 last question.

25 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, but let me

Page 12987

1 clarify that, I think.

2 Q. Sir, when you say he saw it personally, are

3 you referring to the 27th of July document or to the

4 8th of August document?

5 A. I am speaking of the document dated August 8.

6 Q. And with respect to the document of the 8th

7 of August, how do you know that Mr. Polutak saw that

8 document? Was he still in the Tactical Group 1

9 headquarters at that time?

10 A. Yes, he was.

11 Q. So there was some period of time when both

12 Mr. Delalic and Mr. Polutak were functioning in the

13 Tactical Group 1 headquarters; is that correct?

14 JUDGE JAN: (No microphone)

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

16 MS. McHENRY: I didn't say functioning as

17 commander, but just were present.

18 Q. Was there, between the time of the 30th of

19 July and the 8th of August, did Mr. Polutak remain in

20 the headquarters of Tactical Group 1, in any function?

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- is a fairly difficult

22 one. You mean he continuously was still a member of

23 the TG-1? That's the --


25 Q. Was he present in the headquarters between

Page 12988

1 30th of July, when Mr. Delalic took over, and the 8th

2 of August?

3 A. I have already said that once.

4 Q. Well, could you just explain it a little

5 more. Was he present all the time, some of the time, a

6 little bit of the time? Can you please just give me a

7 little -- so I can better understand what it was and

8 how frequently Mr. Polutak was there.

9 A. Mr. Polutak, to repeat, handed over the duty

10 on July 30th, 1992.

11 JUDGE JAN: Thereafter, what was he doing?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, sir.

13 JUDGE JAN: Thereafter, what was he doing

14 there? He handed over the charge on the 30th of July

15 to Mr. Delalic. Thereafter he stayed longer, a little

16 longer, at the same station. What was he doing during

17 that period? This is what the lady wants to ask you.

18 A. Yes, it is clear to me. After handing over

19 the charge, commanders go to their separate duties. I

20 apologise if I was unclear.


22 Q. And what were Mr. Polutak's duties, after the

23 30th of July, such that he remained -- such that he was

24 present in the headquarters of Tactical Group 1?

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I believe the

Page 12989

1 witness is being forced to give answers he does not --

2 would not be true --

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone not on) I

4 think some understanding of the situation --

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: -- and there is an intentional

6 confusion created.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He was still present to

8 discuss appointments of Delalic of the 8th of August.

9 How come that situation? That's all she wants to

10 know. He had already moved to his new formation.


12 Q. Sir, do you understand my question?

13 A. I understand the question, but it seems you

14 do not understand me. I apologise. That was war a

15 situation. Commander Delalic was ordered to take over

16 the command in TG-1. Polutak is ordered to move to

17 another duty, and we -- and the front, that is combat,

18 cannot wait for the arrival of a piece of paper.

19 Q. Well, let me --

20 A. The paper arrives when possible, and through

21 other types of communication one can resolve such

22 issues. And this is what we were doing, the issues

23 that present a problem to you, seems to me.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think, Ms. McHenry, we

25 have to break and reassemble at 2.30.

Page 12990

1 --- Luncheon Recess taken at 1:00 p.m.


2 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

3 MR. OLUJIC: Permission to address Your

4 Honours. The problems and difficulties which have

5 appeared with calling of witnesses, my colleague is now

6 going to submit a document with respect to the solution

7 of the problem that we're all seeking.

8 We are still doubtful whether we can

9 accomplish the task. That is, be able to call any

10 witnesses, but we are working in good faith and Your

11 Honours can shortly expect a submission to be handed to

12 you through the registry.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Your attempt, this

14 afternoon, your first efforts at dealing with the

15 victims and witnesses' unit at giving any of your

16 witnesses. Did you understand my observation? Whether

17 your attempt today is your first effort ever in getting

18 in touch with the victims and witnesses unit? Have you

19 spoke to your witnesses?

20 MR. OLUJIC: Yes, with the victims and

21 witnesses unit. However, we have been very active in

22 the field, trying to coordinate witness' schedules

23 because we believe that it would be in vain if we would

24 try to put together lists of witnesses for whom we do

25 not realistically expect to be able to respond and be

Page 12991

1 called in this particular time frame.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He is in the last stage

3 of his witnesses. As the last stage, the last week of

4 his witnesses and after that accused, then you come

5 next. You knew that. And Council for the second

6 accused knew that you're the next person to take over

7 in presenting your case. And you've made no efforts

8 until now.

9 It's not for the Trial Chamber to determine

10 for you to how to organise your Defence. That is

11 essentially the problem of the Council. Anybody

12 expected that right now you should have organised your

13 Defence. Because assistant with the progress of the

14 Defence of the first accused and to say that you are

15 just trying to present particulars for your witnesses,

16 it looks a little awkward.

17 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, with your

18 permission, let me also point out that this is a case

19 of multiple accused. Our own Defence is also based on

20 the witnesses who are being called by the first

21 accused. They may affect our Defence. We, therefore,

22 do not know exactly how many witnesses we need to

23 call. The Defence of the first accused has not been

24 completed and our strategy is being adjusted

25 accordingly. And this is a problem that arises with

Page 12992

1 any case in which there are multiple accused.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

3 not repeat why we had the first status conference

4 before the Defence was to open its case. To enable you

5 to go about your defences and streamline them. That's

6 why we held the status conference.

7 We explained in the interest of the accused

8 persons how you should go about it. Instead, various

9 subterranean and open criticisms have come out of our

10 attempt to make life easier for everyone. In any

11 event, I think we'll carry on in the way we've chosen.

12 After the case of the first accused, which must close

13 next week, you have to take over. Let's have the

14 witness.

15 (The witness entered court)

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can take your seat,

17 please.

18 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

19 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

20 are still under oath.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Mrs.

22 McHenry.

23 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honours.

24 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Sir, just before the

25 lunch break, we were talking about your information

Page 12993

1 about various appointment orders given to Mr. Delalic.

2 Let me just try to clarify matters and try to ask some

3 questions that I hope will clarify the matter. Did I

4 understand correctly that between the 30th of July and

5 the 8th of August, Mr. Polutak was still present in the

6 headquarters of Tactical Group 1?

7 A. At a command post?

8 Q. No, in any function whatsoever.

9 A. He was not there.

10 Q. So, after the 30th of July, Mr. Polutak was

11 no longer physically present at the Tactical Group 1

12 headquarters, is that correct?

13 A. No.

14 Q. I'm sorry, does that mean it's incorrect

15 or --

16 JUDGE JAN: Maybe he was winding up until he

17 stayed on. Because you're confusing as functions or

18 command. Maybe he was not performing any function,

19 maybe he was not in command. But possibly he was

20 present, physically present, to wind up his affairs.


22 Q. Let me just ask that sir. After the 30th of

23 July, did Mr. Polutak, was he physically present in any

24 capacity whatsoever in the headquarters of Tactical

25 Group 1?

Page 12994

1 JUDGE JAN: You're again talking in a

2 capacity, maybe it was privately, to wind up affairs.


4 Q. Well, that would include in a private

5 capacity.

6 A. He was not physically present at a command

7 post of the Tactical Group.

8 JUDGE JAN: We're not talking now about

9 command post. Was he physically present in some other

10 connection in the area where your command post is

11 located? Not at the command post. Maybe he was there

12 in connection with private affairs. She wants to find

13 out, was he physically present in the area on the day

14 of the 30th of July?

15 THE WITNESS: I did not see him.


17 Q. Well then I may have to go back over a few

18 questions, sir, because I believe there's been some

19 sort of --

20 A. Of course.

21 Q. -- miscommunication or you've remembered

22 things differently, I don't know. But my question is,

23 you indicated that after the 30th of July you learned

24 certain information from Mr. Polutak about Mr.

25 Delalic's authority, is that correct?

Page 12995

1 A. After 30th of July, I don't know what

2 information you are referring to. Can you please ask

3 me a specific question?

4 Q. Well, let me go back. You indicated that

5 there was some sort of issue or controversy, or

6 whatever you want to call it, about the scope of Mr.

7 Delalic's authority after the 30th of July, is that

8 correct?

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection. The witness said

10 27th.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Come out clearly with

12 what you want. If I guess rightly, you want to clear

13 the discrepancy between Delalic being commander of all

14 forces and the correction of that order. This is what

15 you want to do.

16 MS. McHENRY: I would like to hear what this

17 witness' explanation --

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, do it properly.


20 Q. Well, sir, how was it that you heard about

21 Mr. Delalic having been given authority over all

22 units? Who told you about that and when?

23 A. Around 27 July, and commander Polutak.

24 Q. And you indicated, if I understood you

25 correctly, that after that date there was some

Page 12996

1 discussion and it was decided that the supreme command

2 would be contacted about the issue. Did I understand

3 you correctly?

4 A. I did not want that, nor do I have such

5 authority, in other words the contact of the supreme

6 command.

7 Q. Did any one, to your knowledge, contact the

8 supreme command about the issue?

9 A. I have no such knowledge. But commander

10 Polutak did receive an order from the superior command

11 to turn over the command to the new commander,

12 Delalic. Regardless of the misunderstanding which were

13 existing at the time and which relate to this phrase,

14 "Commander of All Forces." We as command were not

15 entirely clear and so we asked that it be spelled out

16 very precisely in a written form and not to specify all

17 forces, but rather to state directly that this would be

18 Tactical Group 1 because that was its proper name. And

19 I wish this were clear enough now.

20 Q. Well, I'm sorry, sir, I do have a few more

21 questions about it for you. Now, sir, do you know --

22 A. Go ahead.

23 Q. -- Mr. Polutak saw the order of the 27th of

24 July with the reference to all formations or all armed

25 units?

Page 12997

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection. The witness has

2 already answered this question before the recess.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What was his answer

4 then? What was his answer before the recess?

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: The transcript you can tell

6 that he said that he did not know whether Polutak saw

7 it or not.


9 Q. Well, let me ask you this, sir. If Mr.

10 Polutak informed you that Mr. Delalic had been given

11 authority over all armed units, do you know how Mr.

12 Polutak knew that Mr. Delalic had been given such

13 authority?

14 A. I don't know that.

15 Q. But you're sure that Mr. Polutak was aware of

16 it because he told you about it, correct?

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why do you want him to

18 repeat what he has just said? So you want him to say

19 it again.

20 MS. McHENRY: Given the problems, I was going

21 to repeat a few things, but then let me just go

22 forward.

23 Q. Now, sir, you indicated that we decided that

24 we wanted some clarification of the authority given to

25 Mr. Delalic and I am asking you who the "we" was?

Page 12998

1 A. Command of the tactical group.

2 Q. Do you mean Mr. Polutak and yourself or do

3 you mean all members of the staff? Can you just be a

4 little more specific?

5 A. Not all members of the staff, but only the

6 inner circle of the staff.

7 Q. And who was part of the inner circle?

8 A. It was the deputy, that is the chief of

9 staff, which was myself and assistance for logistics

10 and for intelligence.

11 Q. And who was the assistant for intelligence?

12 A. It was Zeka, I mentioned him earlier.

13 JUDGE JAN: May I ask a question here?

14 MS. McHENRY: Certainly, of course.

15 JUDGE JAN: You're a chief of staff of TG-1

16 at the relevant time. After you received the order of

17 27th of July, what steps did you take to take to charge

18 over all the formations?

19 THE WITNESS: We did not -- that is, I did

20 not receive such an order.

21 JUDGE JAN: He being the chief of staff,

22 would have immediately taken steps to take charge of

23 all the formations, that's what I want. Because he was

24 the next man.

25 MS. McHENRY: That's right.

Page 12999

1 Q. Well, sir, after you were informed by Mr.

2 Polutak that Mr. Delalic had been given authority over

3 all armed forces, what steps were taken?

4 A. Polutak and Delalic conducted a transfer of

5 command of Tactical Group 1 based on the order of the

6 superior command.

7 Q. Well --

8 JUDGE JAN: Next question. Did you, in fact,

9 take charge of all the formations in the areas

10 mentioned in the order?

11 THE WITNESS: We did not.


13 Q. Well, okay. Sir, going back to the inner

14 circle, you indicated that the inner circle decided to

15 ask for clarification. I would assume that you would

16 agree with me that of the three members of the inner

17 circle, you were the most senior. And my question is,

18 did you, therefore, take any steps to obtain written

19 clarification of Mr. Delalic's authority?

20 JUDGE JAN: He's already said, it was not

21 within his authority to do that.

22 MS. McHENRY: Well, that's why I have asked

23 if he took any steps, even if he didn't.

24 Q. Well, sir, what was done to obtain

25 clarification?

Page 13000

1 A. First, the other members of the command, and

2 I exclude the commander now, do not have the right of

3 decision taking. So we can only analyse, register and

4 propose. Commander takes decisions on it, the basis of

5 this. So it was only commander Polutak, that is the

6 previous commander was in position to take this

7 decisions or the new commander, that is Delalic.

8 Q. Sir, do you know, was any request or any step

9 whatsoever taken to receive clarification of what of

10 Mr. Delalic's 27th of July appoint?

11 A. I don't know that.

12 Q. So you would agree with me that you don't

13 know that the 8th of August order was in response to

14 any request for clarification of Mr. Delalic's

15 authority? Is that correct?

16 A. It was clear to us when we saw that order.

17 JUDGE JAN: The question is different. Do

18 you know that Mr. Delalic contacted the high command

19 for the clarification of this order?

20 THE WITNESS: I know that.


22 Q. And how do you know that, sir?

23 A. From conversation. He asked that through our

24 communications lines.

25 Q. And, tell me, were present and you could hear

Page 13001

1 him, is that correct?

2 A. I was not present at the time when he was in

3 communication.

4 Q. But Mr. Delalic told you himself that he had

5 requested clarification of his own authority, is that

6 correct?

7 A. That is not clarification that was not

8 questionable. The authority was clear. It was just

9 the designation of the command, was it TG-1 or what we

10 talked about, commander of all forces? Because

11 commander of all forces meant nothing to us as a

12 Tactical Group.

13 Q. Well, then, sir, did Mr. Delalic tell you

14 himself that he requested a further designation of

15 command?

16 A. Not to designate it, the command has already

17 been designated.

18 Q. Well, sir, what you indicated that Mr.

19 Delalic -- well, you indicated that you learned that

20 the 8th of August order was made in response to some

21 question about Mr. Delalic's command or authority, is

22 that correct?

23 A. The only issue there was the name, whether a

24 commander, whether it would be the commander of TG-1 or

25 commander of all forces.

Page 13002

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't you think you need

2 another question, because I don't see the need to press

3 this.

4 MS. McHENRY: Well, let me just put it.

5 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that you have no

6 information that the 8th of August --

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I have asked you to move

8 to some other question.

9 MS. McHENRY: I will move on, then.

10 Q. Sir, the 8th of August order refers to, in

11 addition to Mr. Delalic, it refers to a Mr. Maric.

12 Maybe, in fact, I can ask that the document be shown to

13 the witness. Sir, are you aware of whether or not

14 there was any issue or question about the appointment

15 of Mr. Maric?

16 May I ask that the witness be shown D146,

17 which is the 8th of August document.

18 JUDGE JAN: You are supposed to ask him, does

19 he know Mr. Maric?

20 MS. McHENRY: Well, even if he didn't know

21 Mr. Maric personally, he might --

22 Q. Sir, do you know anything about why in the

23 same order there is also an appointment of a Mr. Maric?

24 A. I do not know that.

25 Q. Okay. Did Mr. Delalic, to your knowledge,

Page 13003

1 see the 8th of August document?

2 A. Yes, he did.

3 Q. Would you agree with me that frequently,

4 after military appointments had been made, President

5 Izetbegovic confirmed the appointments and then such

6 appointments were published in the Official Gazette?

7 Were you aware of that?

8 A. I don't know what the practice was during the

9 war.

10 Q. Let me -- with respect to that document, it

11 refers, and you can look at it if you wish, it refers

12 to a -- that the order is being made pursuant to a

13 proposal from the Minister of Defence dated the 19th of

14 July. Do you know what proposal from the Minister of

15 Defence dated the 19th of July is referred to?

16 A. I do not know of it.

17 Q. Now, again, looking at that same document,

18 sir. There is a reference or the designation is for

19 the Tactical Group in the areas Hadzici, Pazaric,

20 Konjic and Jablanica. Now, I certainly understand your

21 testimony, that the Tactical Group was not superior to

22 these municipal areas, but if you can, what does this

23 reference to the municipalities refer to? Does it

24 refer to the zone of operations, does it refer to the

25 municipalities from which units came from? What does

Page 13004

1 this reference here refer to in these four

2 municipalities?

3 A. I understood that as a geographical

4 definition of an area or a direction.

5 Q. Was it the direction -- was it the area of

6 operations of the Tactical Group 1?

7 A. That was the general direction, if we take a

8 look at the entire period of activity of TG-1.

9 Q. But you would agree it's, according to your

10 testimony, it would not be an accurate description of

11 the area of operation in August of 1992, wouldn't you?

12 A. Could you please clarify to me in what way is

13 it illogical for it to be an area of operation?

14 Q. I am not asking you if it's illogical, sir.

15 I am just asking whether or not, in August of 1992, at

16 the time this order was made, is this a correct and

17 accurate description of the municipalities that were

18 the zone of operation of Tactical Group 1?

19 A. Specified here is only the line of

20 communication between Jablanica, Pazaric, Konjic,

21 Hadzici, and the areas within it are a wider region

22 that gravitates to that communication.

23 Q. So was Konjic one of the main lines of

24 communication for Tactical Group 1?

25 A. Communication, the main communication to

Page 13005

1 which this Tactical Group was tied to, went through

2 Konjic.

3 Q. And when you say "line of communication,"

4 what are you referring to? Can you just explain what

5 that means, "line of communication"?

6 A. When I say communication line, I mean the one

7 used for transport, that is roads and rails.

8 Q. Thank you. Now, may I ask now that the

9 witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 230. And I am

10 finished with D146. Thank you. I'm sorry, can I --

11 thank you.

12 Sir, did you see this document in August of

13 1992?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. And does the original Bosnian version, does

16 it bear Mr. Delalic's signature? Do you recognise

17 whether or not that's Mr. Delalic's signature?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. Did Mr. Delalic have authorisation to make

20 the appointment reflected in this document?

21 A. He did have the authorities only, and in

22 light of finding temporary solutions to a specific

23 problem until the final appointment arrived, and if it

24 has to do with the emergency engagement of a certain

25 person or to conduct important tasks. And in this

Page 13006

1 particular case this is about a typist, an

2 administrative assistant, who, at the given moment, had

3 to take over a job of the typist who was at that place

4 before, and I have mentioned Ms. Kiba.

5 And if I may add, this needed to be done for

6 the document to become fully valid. So he had the

7 authority only in situations of temporary solutions, if

8 such a person was necessary for a conduct of combat

9 tasks and a superior command was unable for any reasons

10 to go through with that appointment. If I may, even

11 today we have such cases in which the first -- the

12 superior commander writes out a temporary appointment,

13 in the sense of appointing somebody to a function,

14 until the arrival of the final appointment authorised

15 by the superior command. This happens even now during

16 peacetime, and especially during the war.

17 JUDGE JAN: Surely, the commander can appoint

18 a typist without referring it to the high command.

19 A. It would be logical, but our superior command

20 appointed all the people, and that was a principle,

21 having in mind the nature of the Tactical Group as a

22 temporary formation, and it deals with tasks limited

23 within a period of time with specifically described

24 duties and tasks.


Page 13007

1 Q. Sir, do you know why a copy of that document

2 was sent to both the war presidency and the

3 headquarters of Konjic, of the TO Konjic?

4 A. I am not familiar with that.

5 Q. Okay. And let me refer you to the heading

6 there, where it says, "Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

7 Armed Forces Supreme Command Staff Sarajevo, Tactical

8 Group 1." Was that the heading for all documents

9 emanating from Tactical Group 1?

10 A. In principle, this was done in a way that

11 they first mentioned a superior command and then the

12 subordinate command, and this has been put in a correct

13 way, having in mind the rule on official correspondence

14 which we inherited from the former JNA. But I would

15 not rule out the possibility of war documents which did

16 not have such a precisely defined heading of the

17 document. It all depended on people who do that, and

18 we did not have enough trained people who could put

19 through any document in a sufficiently precise manner.

20 Q. Turning to another matter, sir. Who took

21 over as deputy commander when you left in October?

22 A. I do not know that.

23 Q. So you did not turn your duties over to any

24 particular person; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, I did. I gave my duties over to the

Page 13008

1 Commander Zejnil Delalic.

2 Q. Okay. Now, you earlier spoke about some

3 problems with a gun and the municipal authorities in

4 Konjic. If I understood you correctly, these problems

5 started before Mr. Delalic began functioning as

6 commander of Tactical Group 1; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. And the supreme command was aware of these

9 problems, weren't they?

10 A. Yes, they were aware.

11 Q. Now, during the time that Mr. Delalic was

12 commander of Tactical Group 1, in the time that you

13 were there, so from when he began functioning until you

14 left, approximately how many soldiers were subordinated

15 to Tactical Group 1?

16 A. There were several instances of subordination

17 because there were several attempts at lifting of the

18 Sarajevo siege in accordance with the task of the TG-1,

19 but the number of soldiers never went over 1,200 men.

20 Q. During the time that Mr. Delalic was

21 commander of Tactical Group 1, from what municipalities

22 did the units come from, as best you can remember?

23 A. I will try to remember. They came from

24 municipalities of Jablanica, Konjic, Hadzici, Kiseljak,

25 Ilidza, and there was one occasion where we had a unit

Page 13009

1 from Prozor, if I recall it correctly.

2 Q. And the units from Konjic, what kind of units

3 were they; in other words, from what entity, TO, MUP?

4 A. Those were all units that belonged to the TO,

5 and once we engaged a smaller unit of HOS, exactly at

6 the period of the Operation JUG, and they were engaged

7 in the ancillary area, in the area of Brdo Ormanj

8 towards Brdo Ostrig, and this is the left side of the

9 town of Hadzici.

10 Q. Can you just tell -- who are the HOS units?

11 When they weren't subordinated to Tactical Group 1, who

12 were they subordinated to, if they were not part of the

13 TO?

14 A. We then used the armed forces of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that was a wish of us Bosniaks,

16 to develop such an armed force. It evolved in a

17 completely different direction, but for a period of

18 time also the HVO units, as well as TO units and HOS

19 units, were within those armed forces.

20 Q. But my question is, if the HOS units were not

21 part of the TO, to whom were they subordinated, when

22 they weren't subordinated to Tactical Group 1?

23 A. To be honest, I do not know much about HOS

24 units, but they were supposed to be subordinate to the

25 supreme command of the armed forces of

Page 13010

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but, from my knowledge,

2 unfortunately, it never came completely true. That was

3 just an effort.

4 Q. Now, during the time that Mr. Delalic was

5 commander of Tactical Group 1, were any MUP units ever

6 subordinated to him?

7 A. No, they were not.

8 Q. And when I say subordinated to him, I mean

9 subordinated to Tactical Group 1. During the time

10 that Mr. Delalic was there, there were never any MUP

11 units --

12 A. Yes, it is clear to me.

13 Q. Now, during the time that Mr. Delalic was

14 commander of Tactical Group 1, did Tactical Group 1

15 have any military police, either its own military

16 police or military police units that had been

17 subordinated to it?

18 A. No, it did not have.

19 Q. At any time during the existence of Tactical

20 Group 1, were prisoners captured?

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I'm sure these are all

22 questions which have been asked and answered in direct

23 examination.

24 JUDGE JAN: You asked this question --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

Page 13011

1 JUDGE JAN: You asked Mr. Polutak about it,

2 and he answered in the negative.

3 MS. McHENRY: But --

4 JUDGE JAN: We are dealing here with

5 prisoners who were detained or arrested when

6 Mr. Polutak was TG-1 commander.

7 MS. McHENRY: Let me clarify.

8 Q. During the time that Mr. Delalic was

9 functioning as Tactical Group 1 commander, were any

10 prisoners ever captured during Tactical Group 1

11 operations?

12 A. No, there were never.

13 Q. Now, sir, you stated in direct that Tactical

14 Group 1 had no authority to discipline the soldiers

15 that were under its command. You would agree with me

16 that there's no regulation or written order which

17 states that Tactical Group do not have authority to

18 discipline soldiers under their command?

19 A. The general principles of organising an

20 engagement of Tactical Groups, it is clearly stated

21 that authorities of the command of a Tactical Group are

22 not to discipline anybody, but they have the right, in

23 relation to individuals or groups who are engaged in

24 misconduct or do not fulfil the tasks, to return them

25 to their parent units and to propose to their command

Page 13012

1 to discipline them. That was the only thing that a TG

2 command could do concerning this.

3 Q. Do you agree with me that within the

4 regulations of the Bosnian Army, and within the orders

5 made by the supreme command of the Bosnian Army, that

6 was never stated in writing?

7 A. It is stated in rules that we abided by.

8 These are rules in textbooks inherited from the former

9 JNA, because at that time we did not have any other,

10 and there it is clearly defined concerning the

11 authorities of a Tactical Group.

12 Q. Were there ever exceptional circumstances,

13 such as, if immediate action was required, or if no

14 other entity was available, to punish a soldier?

15 A. No, there were not such circumstances, and we

16 did not have the right to do it, regardless of

17 circumstances. But their commanders would always

18 monitor, especially if we talk about important combat

19 activities, they would always monitor the conduct of

20 their units and gave help, if necessary.

21 Q. Now, I am going to ask that the witness be

22 shown D145/A/5/D-41, which is 815 and 816 shown to him

23 during direct.

24 Now, sir, this is the 24th of August

25 document, and you indicated that you were present at

Page 13013

1 the time that Mr. Delalic communicated with the supreme

2 command. Do you remember that?

3 A. I was present when he was drafting the

4 document, and I knew what it was about.

5 Q. Do I understand, then, that during the actual

6 communication between Mr. Delalic and the supreme

7 command, you were not present and don't have personal

8 knowledge of what was said?

9 A. I was present during the communication. This

10 was done through radio communication, which was only a

11 communication link at that moment. I remember that he

12 reacted because he had more important things to do at

13 that moment, and then I said, "Well, Commander, sir, we

14 should aid, regardless of the circumstances."

15 Q. Who was it in the supreme -- who was it in

16 the supreme command that Mr. Delalic was communicating

17 with?

18 A. I don't know. I never asked him.

19 Q. So do I understand, you were not present in

20 the beginning part of the conversation when the persons

21 would have identified themselves; is that correct?

22 A. I was present at that location where it was

23 being drafted, but at that time I was not paying

24 attention who it was concerned. Maybe I knew who the

25 person was, but I did not inquire.

Page 13014

1 Q. Now, let me -- you indicated that Mr. Delalic

2 was asked to transmit certain orders and that

3 Mr. Delalic also sketched some other things that were

4 on his mind. Do you remember that, when he was

5 dictating this order?

6 A. Yes, I remember that.

7 Q. And what, to the extent that you yourself

8 heard it, what parts did the supreme command ask him to

9 transmit orders about? In other words, I am asking

10 you, what were the things that Mr. Delalic was

11 specifically asked to do by the supreme command, and

12 what were the things that Mr. Delalic had on his mind,

13 without being given instructions by the supreme

14 command?

15 A. I don't know with whom he was communicating

16 at that time, but he just said the supreme command,

17 which at that time was called main staff. He told me

18 what this was concerning, and in passing he also told

19 me, "I'm going to write this down and I am going to

20 send it off quickly, and you go up there and help out,"

21 because during this time we had combat operations in

22 progress. We were on a plateau which was sheltered --

23 it was a cover, and the observation post, which we

24 used, was out front where certain number of officers

25 were positioned and they were monitoring the

Page 13015

1 operation.

2 Q. Did you, yourself, hear anything said by the

3 supreme command to Mr. Delalic? If "yes," please tell

4 me what you heard. If "no," please just state that.

5 Did you yourself hear anything the supreme command said

6 to Mr. Delalic on this occasion?

7 A. This part of paragraph 1, he mentioned that

8 succinctly. He said; "they're asking of me to transmit

9 to the municipal staff of the Konjic defence to take

10 written statements from these prisoners at Celebici."

11 But as he had said; "I am also going to include the

12 things that concern our combat activities, so that I

13 would not have to draft a separate document." And that

14 was the extent to which we were able to communicate at

15 that moment. After that, I went to see how the

16 officers at the observation post were doing concerning

17 the artillery attacks.

18 Q. Sir, do I understand that you, yourself, did

19 not hear anything that the supreme command said and

20 your information comes from what Mr. Delalic told you,

21 is that correct?

22 A. I did not hear anything directly because he

23 had said of the radio transmitter and we did not have

24 additional speakers or something so that I could listen

25 in. There were some other issues which they talked to

Page 13016

1 him about which concerned the conduct of combat

2 operations and I recall that it was that they talked

3 about certain larger losses which we had in the Krupac

4 area and he was -- okay, sorry.

5 Q. Thank you. Sir, in this order, there's a

6 discussion that the investigative military body should

7 provide a copy of their report to this command. Was

8 such a report ever submitted to the command or you just

9 don't know?

10 A. Excuse me, which command?

11 Q. Well, let me just ask you another way. Do

12 you know what if anything was done, either by the

13 municipal TO or by Mr. Delalic after this order of the

14 24th of August?

15 A. Delalic took no steps in that regard as far

16 as I know. And our command received no report

17 concerning this activity.

18 Q. Now, sir, you already stated that you, at the

19 time, were unaware of the 28th of August document from

20 Mr. Delalic to the commander of the Celebici prison, so

21 I won't ask you about that. But, there's a reference

22 to a particular written order from the supreme command

23 headquarters and I am asking you, with respect to

24 Celebici prison, did you ever see any written order

25 from the supreme command?

Page 13017

1 A. I really did not see one.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you would agree with me

3 that lifting the siege of Sarajevo was, in 1992, the

4 most important military task for the Bosnian army?

5 A. I agree.

6 Q. And because of that, the supreme command

7 obviously wanted to ensure that the Tactical Groups had

8 the means to be effective?

9 A. It did everything they could.

10 Q. And that included when it was seen that there

11 was a need for it, authorisation for the Tactical Group

12 commanders to issue orders to municipal headquarters

13 about intelligence matters? Is that correct? I think

14 you've already testified to this effect, I am just

15 making sure that I am correct.

16 A. I saw that document and I stated that it

17 followed all the events relating, all the events that

18 took place and they relate to the intelligence

19 information and the information that followed which

20 spelled out and asked of everyone to step up their

21 activities.

22 Q. I don't want to cut you off, but I think you

23 explained this in direct. So now I am asking you just

24 a very specific question. It is correct that because

25 of the need, which you've already explained, the

Page 13018

1 supreme command authorised the Tactical Group

2 commanders to issue orders to municipal headquarters

3 about intelligence matters? That's correct, isn't it?

4 A. I consider this order too as a transmission

5 of an order that is a notice on the part of the supreme

6 command, even though the intelligence work is very

7 unique and extremely important for the preparations for

8 the following attempts at lifting of the siege that is

9 for the further tasks of tactical groups.

10 Q. Let me just clarify then. It's your opinion

11 that because of the prior directives from the supreme

12 command about intelligence orders, any further orders

13 by the tactical group commanders about intelligence

14 matters, all of such orders, were, in effect,

15 transmission orders, is that correct?

16 A. May I ask you to ask me a very specific

17 question?

18 Q. Fair enough, sir. You indicated in your

19 direct that after a particular incident where Mr. Catic

20 was hurt, there was a directive from the municipal

21 headquarters to cooperate with tactical group

22 commanders about intelligence matters, is that

23 correct?

24 A. This was a standing task of the municipal

25 defence staffs because Tactical Group 1, as well as all

Page 13019

1 the other groups, of course, was an exclusively combat

2 unit and --

3 Q. I just, if I understand you correctly, there

4 was, in effect, a standing obligation on municipal

5 headquarters to cooperate with Tactical Groups about

6 intelligence matters. And under this standing

7 obligation, Tactical Group commanders had authority to

8 issue orders to municipal headquarters about

9 intelligence matters? Is that correct?

10 A. Direct orders in a sense of command and

11 control, they did not have. But, they had a

12 possibility to notify, to request. However, taken into

13 account that before this order, which was transmitted,

14 a directive was issued, a directive on intelligence

15 activity in the area of the front lines so that this

16 order too, as well as the previous orders which we have

17 been explaining here, are transmission orders from the

18 superior command to the municipal defence staffs.

19 Q. Sir, let me move on. Now you're aware that

20 as part of the continuing efforts to lift the siege of

21 Sarajevo, when the JUG operation commenced, the JUG

22 commander was given authority by the supreme command to

23 determine for itself what units from various

24 municipalities would be used? Were you aware of that?

25 A. I was not aware of it.

Page 13020

1 Q. Now, you would agree with me that the supreme

2 command could give a tactical group commander

3 additional tasks?

4 A. Regarding intelligence support.

5 Q. Now, sir, you would agree with me that the

6 supreme command had authority to give a tactical group

7 commander any task that the supreme command wished to

8 give? Would you disagree with that?

9 A. Yes, he could.

10 Q. And are you aware, for instance, of a

11 well-known occasion in the fall of 1992 when the

12 supreme command tasked Mr. Delalic with the matter

13 involving the arrest of Juka Prazina, Bosnia military

14 commander? Were you aware of that?

15 A. I don't know anything about that.

16 Q. You never heard anything about Juka Prazina

17 being arrested in the fall of 1992?

18 A. I heard it in conversation that he was

19 arrested. But by whom or why, that I do not know.

20 Q. Do you know where Mr. Prazina was imprisoned

21 after he was arrested?

22 A. I do not know, and I would request that you

23 do not ask me any questions about the Prasina case

24 because I do not know anything about it.

25 Q. Fair enough, sir. Now, sir, I assume at the

Page 13021

1 time -- well, I assume that given your position as

2 deputy commander in the urgent combat activities that

3 were going on, it was not unusual for Mr. Delalic to

4 have communication with the supreme command without you

5 knowing exactly the nature of the communication? Did

6 you know the nature of every communication between Mr.

7 Delalic and the supreme command?

8 A. I believe that I knew everything that

9 concerned the activity of the Tactical Group 1. But a

10 commander always reserves the right to communicate to

11 his subordinates the things that he chooses to

12 communicate.

13 MS. McHENRY: Thank you very much, sir.

14 Thank you, Your Honours, no further questions.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Is

16 there any re-examination?

17 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:

18 Q. Colonel, I only have two questions for you.

19 First, you said at it one point a HOS unit was

20 subordinated to the Tactical Group 1 at one point and

21 you also indicated where it was located. Can you just

22 clarify, for what period of time was this unit

23 subordinated to Tactical Group 1?

24 A. I do not know the exact number of days, but

25 it was a short engagement of this unit during the

Page 13022

1 Operation JUG.

2 Q. With respect to the question, "which units

3 from the wider area of your activity were subordinated

4 to a tactical group?" I only want to ask you whether

5 in the course of the Operation JUG, the units from

6 Konjic and Jablanica were subordinated to your tactical

7 group?

8 A. They were not.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, no further

10 questions, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much,

12 Colonel. We're very grateful for your assistance.

13 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And this is the end of

15 your testimony, you are discharged. Can we have your

16 next witness, please?

17 (The witness withdrew)

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the next

19 witness, please.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: (No translation).

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please

22 repeat? The microphone was not on.

23 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, may I just ask for

24 clarification from the registrar. Prosecution Exhibit

25 230, has that been admitted? It's the appointment

Page 13023

1 order of the typist that the witness recognised. And I

2 believe it's already been admitted, but if not, I would

3 request that it be admitted.

4 THE REGISTRAR: It has not been tendered.

5 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, at this time, I

6 would tender Prosecution Exhibit 230. I'm sorry that I

7 didn't do it before.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Through who are you

9 tendering it? The witness is not here. It doesn't

10 really matter.

11 JUDGE JAN: The commander making the point

12 that it was his own typist for a temporary period. How

13 is it really relevant? How does it shed any light on

14 the command responsibility of Zejnil Delalic?

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Or that he can appoint

16 very good staff or he may not.

17 JUDGE JAN: If you read the appointment to

18 assist in the administrative tasks.

19 MS. McHENRY: Well, among other things, Your

20 Honours, it would be relevant because it refers to the

21 basis for Mr. Delalic's authority.

22 JUDGE JAN: He had the authority to appoint

23 his own typist. Admittedly he was a commander.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would you please invite

25 the witness.

Page 13024

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: I call Mr. Ekrem Milic.

2 (The witness entered court)

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please swear the

4 witness.

5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

6 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

7 truth.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may take your seat,

9 please.


11 Examined by Ms. Residovic:

12 Q. Good afternoon, sir, will you please just

13 pull up your chair a little bit so we can hear you

14 better. Thank you. Sir, will you please introduce

15 yourself by stating to the Court your full name?

16 A. I am Ekrem Milic, son of Emin Milic and my

17 mother is Hajrija Isanovic.

18 Q. Thank you, sir. Mr. Milic, will you tell me

19 where and when you were born?

20 A. I was born on 8 January 1959 in the Rogatica

21 municipality in Eastern Bosnia.

22 Q. What is your ethnic group and your

23 citizenship, sir?

24 A. I am a Bosniak and a citizen of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 13025

1 Q. Mr. Milic, I want to personally thank you

2 even though you were not scheduled for this week, that

3 you were able to adjust your schedule so that you could

4 appear before this Tribunal. Mr. Milic, what is your

5 profession?

6 A. For 17 years I have been a journalist.

7 Q. What was your education and where did you

8 receive it?

9 A. I received all my education in Sarajevo,

10 primary school, the high school and I studied at the

11 school for political science at university and I

12 majored in sociology. And I also have courses in

13 philosophy at the school of philosophy of literature

14 and several Croatian languages as it was called at that

15 time. Or several Croatian or Croat-Serb languages.

16 Q. Thank you, sir. Mr. Milic, can you tell me

17 where you worked until April 6th, 1992? And what was

18 your profession at the time?

19 A. Let me first answer the second part of the

20 question. I was a journalist. Officially my official

21 position was a correspondent for a news organisation

22 from Belgrade called Borba, which had about six or

23 seven different editions, both daily newspapers and

24 magazines. I also worked for several media outlets in

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina on a freelance basis.

Page 13026

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Milic, I believe that

2 elucidates your professional involvement officially.

3 Mr. Milic, can you now tell me something that is of

4 interest for us here, where were you between April 1992

5 and April 1993? If you can just sketch it out for us

6 so that we can lay the foundation for the next few

7 questions that I am going to ask of you.

8 A. I was in Innsbruck, Austria, at the time of

9 the aggression against my country. And believing that

10 all this was going to end very quickly, I returned to

11 Belgrade with a plan to then go, continue on to

12 Sarajevo. And then when I realised that this was not

13 to be, I turned around and went back to Austria and

14 from there to Croatia to a town called Funtana. It's a

15 small town near Porec in the Istria Region.

16 Q. Mr. Milic, I indicated a longer period of

17 time for you. When you went to Croatia, did you spend

18 all this time in Croatia?

19 A. Yes, this was in the latter part of April of

20 '92 and I stayed in Croatia as a refugee all the way

21 up to June of 1993.

22 Q. You just answered my next question. You were

23 a refugee. Mr. Milic, during your stay in Croatia,

24 were you able to pursue your profession, either on a

25 regular or occasional basis, that is, to work as a

Page 13027

1 journalist?

2 A. As you know, a journalist never stays still.

3 I actively pursued it on my own for my own sake. I did

4 a lot of research and I followed events, but I did not

5 have any professional involvement in Croatia and that

6 is I could not even try to get one. I believe that

7 it's very clear what the situation was.

8 Q. Yes, Mr. Milic I am just waiting for the

9 interpretation, not because I am not clear about what

10 you were saying. Can you now tell me whether in the

11 period while you were in Croatia, which was April,

12 1992, and as you just specified up until about June of

13 1993, did you ever during that period go to Konjic or

14 to Sarajevo through Konjic?

15 A. That was my desire, but, unfortunately, I did

16 not. It was not viable.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

18 rise now and resume at 4.30 p.m.

19 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.30 p.m.

21 (The witness entered court)

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mrs. Residovic, you may

23 proceed with your witness.

24 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

25 are still under oath.

Page 13028

1 Q. Mr. Milic, to my last question before the

2 break you answered that in 1992 you did not visit

3 Konjic, Sarajevo or Bosnia-Herzegovina, but I would ask

4 you, did you still, as a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

5 follow what was going on in that country?

6 A. Yes, to a large extent.

7 Q. Can you tell us in which way you were doing

8 that?

9 A. I was listening to the radio all the time,

10 changing stations repeatedly, meaning that during the

11 evening I was able to get the signal of the BiH Radio.

12 I also followed a programme of the Croatian radio and

13 television, and during the evenings I tried to get the

14 signal of Radio Belgrade, which was at times possible

15 in Croatia, and also the press.

16 Q. Thank you. I think that would be enough.

17 Since you have told us where you were as a refugee, did

18 you during that period go to Zagreb and did you meet

19 with people from Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 A. Yes, I did, starting with May, 1992, because

21 in Zagreb we had the best organised detention centre --

22 I'm sorry, collection centre for the citizens of

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 Q. As a journalist and a human being, you can

25 tell us about that period in 1992, and you could assess

Page 13029

1 on what the standpoint of the Croatian media was

2 towards the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina. So can you tell

3 us how you saw all those informations in the Croatian

4 media?

5 A. Professionally speaking, I think this was a

6 period of truthful reporting by the Croatian media,

7 that is, April and May, 1992.

8 Q. Did you, at any moment, feel the change in

9 reporting of the Croatian media towards the things in

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What type of evidence do

12 you want this witness to give? Go straight into what

13 you want him to say, because I don't think any of this

14 is relevant to what you are doing here.

15 JUDGE JAN: What propaganda was going on

16 against your client and what steps he took to counter,

17 instead of going into all of that. It's not necessary

18 for us.


20 Q. Mr. Milic, I believe we were warned by the

21 Chamber, in full right, because we should skip over

22 things that the Chamber already better knows. On this

23 change of tone of the Croatian media, do you have any

24 knowledge that there was a certain propaganda directed

25 against Mr. Delalic. But prior to your answer, first

Page 13030

1 of all, did you know Mr. Delalic in 1992?

2 A. No, I did not know him.

3 Q. Did you see Delalic's name in Croatian media,

4 and at what time and, also, if you did, what was the

5 context?

6 A. I registered the appearance of that name for

7 the first time during the combat operation which was

8 aimed at lifting of siege of Sarajevo. I think it was

9 called JUG 1992. Until then, I wasn't even paying that

10 much attention. There were mainly reports on successes

11 of our troops around Konjic and so on, Mostar, Duvavo,

12 Livno, front line.

13 Q. Thank you. When you were following

14 information, was this news of Mr. Delalic done in the

15 negative or a positive way?

16 A. I would say neither. It was impartial.

17 Normal I would call it.

18 Q. I apologise to you and to the Chamber,

19 because I can see you are following the interpretation,

20 so you stop in the middle of a thought. I forgot at

21 the beginning to warn you to monitor or to follow the

22 interpretation in the headphones, because we have

23 simultaneous interpreters interpreting what we are

24 saying. So, please, can you speak, speak slowly, and

25 you need not pay attention to the sound and wait for it

Page 13031

1 to interrupt you. But, please, wait with your answer

2 until the interpretation of my question is over.

3 Do you understand me?

4 A. Yes, I do. And I will try to do that.

5 Q. I apologise again for not mentioning this

6 before.

7 Mr. Milic, did you, in May, 1992, watch a

8 Croatian programme under the title "Slikom na Sliku"?

9 A. This programme had a very large audience in

10 Croatia. It was on regularly, on a weekly basis. I

11 did not see all of it. Some of them I saw later on

12 through certain video recordings.

13 Q. Mr. Milic, at the time when the programme was

14 shown in May, 1992, did you see the particular one

15 which had Mr. Delalic as a guest?

16 A. Unfortunately, not in its direct

17 transmission.

18 Q. Mr. Milic, did you ever in Croatia meet any

19 of the brothers of Mr. Delalic?

20 A. Yes, I did. That was at the beginning of

21 1993, and within a period of three or four months I met

22 three of his brothers.

23 Q. What was the reason for you meeting the first

24 brother, and can you tell us the name of this brother

25 you met in Zagreb?

Page 13032

1 A. First contact with one of his brothers was

2 through Mr. Vejsil Mujkanovic. That was at the

3 beginning of 1993. And we met after I expressed my

4 desire to take a more active role in the work of the

5 Bosnian crisis centre in Zagreb, trying to give my own

6 contribution to preventing or stopping, giving an end

7 to a campaign which was stepping up in the area of

8 Konjic, where the members of the TO and the BiH Army

9 issued significant successes on front line. But, in

10 Croatia the propaganda already took on a negative

11 tone.

12 Q. I had been warned that the name of the person

13 mentioned was not put in the transcript was Vejsil, but

14 since we are going to mention this brother again, we

15 need to clarify it right now. If I understood you

16 correctly, in that crisis centre for Bosniaks you

17 wished to work as a journalist to counter influence to

18 the propaganda. Did you then learn that his brother

19 Vejsil was looking for somebody in that capacity to try

20 to stop -- give an end to that campaign against

21 Mr. Delalic?

22 A. Yes, after I had a talk with the secretary,

23 Mujkanovic Mohamed was his name, and through our

24 conversations and feel we had about the things going

25 on, as well as my desire to bring the true situation of

Page 13033

1 Konjic into light of day.

2 Q. You said you knew the late Vejsil. Without

3 going into further detail, Mr. Mikamic Mohamed, did he

4 enable you to get in contact with Zejnil Delalic's

5 brother?

6 A. Yes, and we did that.

7 Q. What did you learn from Vejsil on that first

8 meeting? What did he inform you about, and what did he

9 wish you to do?

10 A. See he had authentic information and correct

11 ones. He wanted a denial concerning the campaign that

12 was going on.

13 Q. Did Vejsil tell you that he maybe himself

14 tried to do something in connection with the campaign?

15 A. There were no specific conversation about

16 that, but he wished at any cost for the truth to be

17 brought out. Of course, then I suggested that we

18 should gather people who have quality and reliable

19 informations to organise a press conference, and

20 collect video recordings, if possible, unify that,

21 present it to both Bosnia-Herzegovina, population in

22 Croatia, to the Croatian journalists, as well as to

23 foreign journalists accredited in Croatia.

24 Q. I know, Mr. Milic, that you are not a

25 psychiatrist, but a journalist, but when you spoke with

Page 13034

1 Vejsil, did you notice a worry or anxiety in him, or

2 was that a normal conversation which required your

3 usual social manners?

4 A. He was very anxious. He was afraid for his

5 relatives in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and his own life in

6 Zagreb, because that was literally the time of

7 lynchings. There was a campaign against the Delalic

8 family.

9 Q. Mr. Milic, during that conversation with

10 Mr. Vejsil Delalic, did he say anything to you about

11 Zejnil Delalic's reaction to this campaign, because in

12 its entirety it referred to him?

13 A. He also had his crisis, moments of crisis,

14 according to Vejsil's statements.

15 Q. You said that you wanted to collect data

16 about the events, because you were not a direct

17 participant. Did Vejsil, in connection to that, tell

18 you that you should meet with somebody from Vienna, or

19 did he maybe direct you to somebody else who could give

20 you such information?

21 A. After my suggestion, after I asked for the

22 procedure of collecting as much data as possible,

23 tapes, videotapes, Vejsil promised that he would see to

24 it, and that he would find me associates or co-speakers

25 who could tell me the real truth about it.

Page 13035

1 Q. Mr. Milic, did he fulfil the promise given to

2 you? Did you meet with somebody?

3 A. Yes, relatively quickly. A brief period of

4 time.

5 Q. Can you tell the Chamber who did you meet

6 with and where?

7 A. I met a man with the last name of Ciso, came

8 from Vienna, or maybe that was his nickname. We were

9 together for several hours. We spoke. I told them my

10 opinion, what needed to be done, and insisted on the

11 speed of going forward, but I also had a precondition

12 that I receive all the information in Zagreb.

13 Q. Mr. Milic, did you receive information you

14 requested, and who brought it to you?

15 A. It was brought by Ciso and Dzemal Delalic,

16 another brother to Zejnil, who was supposed to have

17 come earlier in mid January, but he did not have the

18 Croatian passport. And then at the end of January I

19 received about 20 to 30 videotapes.

20 Q. Mr. Milic, since the issue here was of

21 propaganda and the newspapers, did you collect articles

22 published about Mr. Delalic at that time?

23 A. I would usually receive them from Vejsil,

24 because he was collecting it.

25 Q. If you could put it briefly. What was --

Page 13036

1 what were the articles saying of Zejnil? Before I give

2 my interpretation of the text, I hope you will not

3 interpret all of them, and I am just asking you to

4 briefly tell us what it was about. I believe you

5 understood me, so would you please tell me what you

6 found necessary to say to the Chamber before your

7 answer to my question.

8 A. My opinion was that it was an orchestrated

9 campaign which was thoroughly planned, directed against

10 Zejnil Delalic and Konjic in general.

11 Q. When you said this introductory part, what

12 did the press release say? Can you cite a few

13 sentences? How did the press make Mr. Delalic look

14 like, if you can remember? How did it portray him?

15 A. I would divide that into three categories:

16 Co-operation with the Serbs, and at the same time a KOS

17 associate being proclaimed a Serb spy; activities

18 directed towards creation of an unfavourable climate in

19 order to strain relations between Bosnia and Croatians;

20 and then, finally, the third, and the most serious

21 category, is lie.

22 I would quote their term from the press,

23 referring to the escape of the -- by using the Chetnik

24 helicopter to the Serb territory, which was

25 absolutely untrue.

Page 13037

1 Q. Was his treatment of Serb prisoners also

2 mentioned in the media at that time, if you can recall?

3 A. Yes. It was a somewhat funny and absurd

4 situation, but presented very skilfully in terms of

5 propaganda. At that time Zejnil Delalic was releasing

6 Serbs from the prison and the camp, even though I know

7 that he was not in a position that he could do that.

8 Q. Mr. Milic, after Ciso and Dzemal Delalic

9 brought you 20 or 30 cassettes, as you put it, did you

10 review those cassettes and did you do something about

11 it?

12 A. At the same day I sort of sped through them,

13 fast forwarding, just so that I could find out what

14 material was there, what was available.

15 Q. So, Mr. Milic, after this speedy review, as

16 you put it, of the material, did you see whether this

17 material referred to Zejnil Delalic or to something

18 else?

19 A. No, the material in general was about the

20 events in the area between Konjic and the attempt to

21 lift the siege of Sarajevo. For certain operations

22 different material was used. That is, footage from

23 Croatian television, footage from Serb television,

24 footage from the Bosnian television and footage of the

25 local Konjic television. And some footage from private

Page 13038

1 sources, obviously of amateur type.

2 Q. Mr. Milic, did you know who owned the

3 cassettes which were brought to you?

4 A. Can I ask you --

5 Q. It is not usual that the witness should ask

6 questions, but what do you have in mind?

7 A. Just for clarification purposes in terms of

8 the ownership. Ownership in terms of copyright or in

9 terms of the possession of it?

10 Q. I am asking you what you knew in 1992, to

11 whom did the cassettes belong? Who was the proprietor

12 of these cassettes?

13 A. To me, they were the property of Dzemal

14 Delalic, Ciso. I cannot recall his first name. And

15 the authors, that is copyright belonged to all these

16 television outfits which I have just mentioned.

17 Q. Mr. Milic, having reviewed all the material,

18 speedily as you testified before this Tribunal, what

19 did you do with it or did you do anything with it?

20 A. My first reaction was that all these needed

21 to be called, shortened and edited into one or two

22 working cassettes, after which I would make or edit the

23 final cassette or tape. And the idea was that this

24 should be a documentary feature of sorts.

25 Q. Yes. Given the idea that you just explained

Page 13039

1 to us, did you at some time obtain what you wanted? In

2 other words, did you obtain a reduced tape, reduced

3 video material and who did you get it from?

4 A. I obtained it about maybe 15 days after that

5 initial conversation. Ciso and either Dzemal or the

6 late Sefik. I believe that it was Ciso and the late

7 Sefik who brought me these two tapes.

8 Q. Very well. Was that the end of your work or

9 did you start working with this material as a

10 journalist?

11 A. That was the time when I started. I reviewed

12 it very carefully, analysed what needed to be

13 highlighted, create a script. It is to create and

14 edit, it is an editing script. That is what excerpts

15 were going to be put together in what order.

16 It took me five to seven days of thorough and

17 intense work. And in the end, I put together my own

18 commentary and the script for this final product which

19 was to be presented at the press conference.

20 Q. Mr. Milic, if I understood you correctly, you

21 now had video material previously from what Vejsil

22 Delalic brought you and you, yourself, were able to get

23 some articles from the Croatian press. But my question

24 is, when you met with Vejsil, Sefik and Dzemal Delalic,

25 did you learn other details and do you know whether

Page 13040

1 some of them were also participants in the events in

2 Konjic in 1992?

3 A. Ciso went there several times. Dzemal stayed

4 there for a longer periods of time. And Sefik, the

5 late Sefik as a volunteer, spent several months in

6 different areas of Bosnia, but travelling around. I

7 think it was because he was involved in logistics. In

8 fact, I know that he was.

9 Q. Very well. So you had different sources of

10 information for these events, media, videotapes and

11 testimonies some of the participants of the events in

12 Konjic. Did you then say to Ciso and Sefik what your

13 intention was? You told us that you were supposed to

14 do the editing script and so on, but were you supposed

15 to report to Zejnil's brothers on what you were

16 supposed to do with it?

17 A. I asked him and I was disappointed by what I

18 got. Zejnil was completely unaware of what we were

19 engaged in.

20 Q. Mr. Milic, even though you realise that

21 Zejnil was not aware of what you were engaged in, did

22 you compile a script which was to counter the

23 propaganda or some other material that you intended to

24 present at this press conference?

25 A. Yes, I compiled a script and I also gave

Page 13041

1 suggestions as to the way in which those two raw

2 videotapes certain excerpts be shortened further and be

3 arranged so that they are in accord with my script.

4 And I suggested it should not last more than, or run

5 more than 60 to 80 minutes.

6 Q. Was this cassette put together in Zagreb and

7 were you present when it was edited based on the

8 suggestions that you've given by Zejnil's brothers and

9 other persons involved?

10 A. No, the cassette was not put together in

11 Zagreb. These cassettes were edited and produced in

12 Vienna.

13 Q. Mr. Milic, you just said that you produced

14 this editing script. That you gave suggestions, such

15 as that the running time not exceed 60 to 80 minutes if

16 I understood you correctly. Did you eventually receive

17 a copy of the cassette based on the instructions which

18 were suggested?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Can you tell me, did you view this cassette

21 and were you satisfied with the work that was done?

22 A. Yes, I did review the cassette personally. I

23 expected that it would be done better and in a more

24 professional way. There were many imperfections there,

25 both in terms of just bad editing to blatantly bad

Page 13042

1 audio. That is, speaker's voice.

2 Q. Mr. Milic, regardless of the fact that it was

3 poorly edited and poorly read, was the material which

4 you had suggested to be included in a cassette actually

5 present there?

6 A. Yes. From the first to the last word,

7 everything was taken.

8 Q. Can you tell me how did you entitle this tape

9 which was put together according to your concept and

10 with the text which you provided for the visual

11 excerpts?

12 A. There were several working versions, which is

13 understandable. Finally, it ended up with this title,

14 "War in Bosnia-Herzegovina. "

15 Q. Regardless of the fact that this videotape

16 was put together in an unprofessional way, but what did

17 you suggest for the ending of the videotape given that

18 you provided suggestions for all parts of it?

19 A. I definitely wanted a recording and I wanted

20 Mr. Zejnil Delalic to appear on camera. That is the

21 person who, thanks to the Croatian propaganda machine,

22 allegedly fled in a Chetnik helicopter.

23 Q. Your tape was supposed to be denial of

24 sorts. Did you include the fact that he arrived in

25 Vienna the day after he left Konjic?

Page 13043

1 A. Yes, it was. But following that there was

2 another excerpt. Another excerpt which I have never

3 talked about with either Dzemal, Ciso or anyone.

4 Q. Now what excerpt are you referring to?

5 A. It was Zejnil's message to the public of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, to his friends, to his

7 collaborators, that he was there, that is in Vienna.

8 That he had nothing to do with Serbs. And as far as I

9 knew, this video was -- and it was Dzemal who gave me

10 this information, Dzemal Delalic, was supposed to,

11 through certain channels, be brought to Sarajevo and

12 presented to our own public there.

13 Q. I'm sorry, I did not understand you very

14 well. You mean the message that Zejnil was sending to

15 the public was supposed to be taken to Sarajevo or the

16 entire videotape?

17 A. It was just the message, Zejnil's message.

18 Q. Mr. Milic, do you know or did you give any

19 suggestions before you resumed work on this videotape

20 to inform Mr. Zejnil Delalic of your effort? And do

21 you know where he was at the time?

22 A. While we worked at a fast pace on it, both

23 the preparations and the putting together of the

24 videotape. It didn't even cross my mind to inquire

25 about Mr. Delalic's whereabouts, even though I knew

Page 13044

1 that he was in Vienna.

2 Q. After the videotape was put together, did you

3 suggest that it be shown to Mr. Delalic and was it

4 done?

5 A. It was only later that I asked Dzemal whether

6 Zejnil had seen this tape. He told me that he had not

7 seen it yet and that they wanted to surprise him with

8 it once the entire material was put together.

9 Q. Mr. Milic, let's try to pace ourselves up to

10 take the cue from you. Once you received the final

11 edit of the cut of the videotape, do you know whether

12 someone, Dzemal or someone else, showed this videotape

13 to Zejnil Delalic? And do you know what his reaction

14 to it was?

15 A. According to me, it was, for us, it was a

16 defeat. He completely rejected my intention and my

17 idea. But as a consolation of sorts, he thanked me for

18 effort. He opted to get redress in a legal way and

19 this is what he pursued. Apparently he hired an

20 attorney.

21 Q. Mr. Milic, I would now like to turn to your

22 script, to the text and comments that you compiled.

23 And did you present the activities of Zejnil Delalic

24 during 1992 in a truthful manner?

25 A. This is a very difficult question. There has

Page 13045

1 been a lot of exaggeration there. A lot of attempts to

2 respond to this counter campaign with equal means.

3 Certain facts from the field do not correspond to my

4 comments on videotape.

5 Q. Mr. Milic, you're a journalist. Every

6 professional has a certain ethics. When in a

7 propaganda piece, which is so biased, when untruthful

8 facts are presented, do you respond in kind trying to

9 counter that propaganda?

10 A. In a war all means are allowed. And by that

11 very fact, it applies also to the journalistic

12 profession.

13 Q. Can you tell me, in compiling your comments,

14 did you base them on real or true events which you

15 exaggerated in a way as you put it? Or you did not

16 have such a foundation in real events?

17 A. The real foundation and my inspiration for

18 this approach to the work on this videotape were, on

19 the one hand, an orchestrated and well-conducted

20 campaign on the Croatian media, which was very

21 effective. And, on the other hand -- I was waiting for

22 the information of the people who were in the field

23 with whom I was in contact steadily and a very

24 important source, which was voice of America radio

25 programmes. Which reported in a very balanced way on

Page 13046

1 the events in the region.

2 Q. Very well, thank you. That would be enough

3 about the foundation. Your Honours, would this be a

4 convenient time to stop for today?

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's 5.30. We'll

6 adjourn until Monday to continue.

7 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 5.30

8 to be reconvened on Monday, the 8th

9 day of June, 1998.