Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13357

1 --- Monday, 29 June, 1998

2 --- Upon commencing at 10.07 a.m.

3 (In open session)

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

5 gentlemen. Have the appearances, please.

6 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honours.

7 Teresa McHenry for the Prosecution, along with

8 Mr. Turone and Mr. Huber. Mr. Niemann is in another

9 courtroom and will be joining us later on today. Thank

10 you.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

12 Have appearances for the Defence, please.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

14 I am Edina Residovic, Defence Counsel for Mr. Zejnil

15 Delalic. My co-counsel is my colleague, professor from

16 Canada, Eugene O'Sullivan. Thank you.

17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

18 Tomislav Kuzmanovic, along with a legal assistant,

19 Mr. Duric, on behalf of Zdravko Mucic. Mr. Olujic

20 should return next week. Thank you.

21 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

22 My name is Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo

23 defending Mr. Hazim Delic. Mr. Hazim Delic is defended

24 also by Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston,

25 Texas.

Page 13358

1 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours. I

2 am Cynthia McMurrey representing Esad Landzo.

3 Ms. Nancy Boler our co-counsel should return from

4 Bosnia this afternoon, and joining me today is our

5 legal assistant and attorney from Houston, Texas, Mr.

6 Ken Lindsey.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We are starting with the

8 Defence of Hazim Delic this morning. You also said you

9 rearranged the Defence list.

10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, we had some

11 transportation problems. Frankly, what happened is

12 they ran out of seats on the aeroplane. It was so tight

13 that our witnesses flew in business class, which makes

14 me very jealous.

15 There should be two more witnesses arriving

16 tomorrow and then our subpoenaed witnesses, we know

17 that the subpoenas have arrived in Bosnia. We have an

18 application for another subpoena. But we can talk

19 about those problems a little later, Your Honours.

20 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, if I might. I

21 received an order from the court on Friday ordering

22 that I be prepared to answer some questions that the

23 court had about subpoena duces tecum, and I am prepared

24 to discuss that this morning briefly. But also I filed

25 an emergency motion on Friday asking the court to order

Page 13359

1 the Prosecution to disclose the suspects in my case.

2 So sometime today I would like to have that heard.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will file that.

4 Thank you.

5 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Karabdic, you start

7 with your first witness.

8 MR. KARABDIC: I would like to present a

9 brief opening argument, Your Honours.

10 The purpose of this opening argument is to

11 show how to present the basic facts, basic data on the

12 witnesses and other evidence to be led by the Defence,

13 and also to show how this makes part of this whole

14 case.

15 We will thus be making it possible and we

16 will be showing to the Tribunal how to understand and

17 how to interpret our evidence. All the witnesses and

18 the evidence that we will be presenting will aim at

19 contesting and challenging and casting reasonable doubt

20 on the evidence presented by the Prosecution.

21 The evidence presented will, first of all,

22 relate to the basic facts alleged in the indictment,

23 the general allegations, and also the allegations

24 concerning all the accused and, in particular, the

25 first three of the accused.

Page 13360

1 Our evidence will show that the arrests that

2 took place in the Municipality of Konjic, the arrests

3 of persons later to be detained in the Celebici prison,

4 were carried out because these persons did not obey the

5 laws of the State of Bosnia-Herzegovina because they

6 illegally carried weapons, they attacked legal armed

7 forces, and prevented the freedom of movements on

8 roads, and both the general allegations and the

9 particular charges relating to the illegal detention of

10 civilians, that all will be refuted.

11 Our witnesses will be talking about that,

12 Cosic, Ramic and Djajic. We will in particular refute

13 the allegations of the Prosecution and their witnesses,

14 who claim that these persons were not Bosnia citizens.

15 We will call Ms. Amira Klaric, she is the

16 registrar of the Konjic municipality, and she is the

17 custodian of the registries of births, deaths and

18 marriages, and also of citizenship in the Municipality

19 of Konjic. Her testimony will show that all the

20 persons indicated herein as victims or mentioned in the

21 indictment or who testified here as witnesses and other

22 persons mentioned in documents tendered here by the

23 Prosecution, it will show that these persons are all

24 citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the relevant times.

25 In particular, Ms. Klaric will be presenting

Page 13361

1 over 180 documents relating to the registries of births

2 and citizenship and marriages. This all relates to the

3 Prosecution witnesses and persons mentioned in the

4 indictment.

5 We will also call witnesses who will prove

6 that in the Celebici prison, that the conditions in the

7 Celebici prison were as good as possible under the

8 circumstances prevalent at the times. We will prove

9 that prisoners got the food the same as other citizens,

10 and the same amounts of food as the soldiers at the

11 frontlines. We will prove that they had adequate water

12 supply, that they had visitation rights, and that they

13 had the right to be visited three times a week, that

14 they had medical care. Again, I stress under the

15 conditions prevalent at the time in Konjic, the medical

16 care was as good as could be provided.

17 Our witnesses, Dzajic, Ibrahimi, Sevajdin and

18 others, will be talking about that. Furthermore, we

19 will call an expert witness, Dr. Eduardo Bellas, as a

20 forensic pathologist. He will testify relating to the

21 credibility of many of the Prosecution witnesses.

22 Dr. Bellas examined portions of the transcript and he

23 will continue to do so, and other parts of the

24 transcript that we will submit to him where Prosecution

25 witnesses described numerous injuries and the

Page 13362

1 conditions in the camp. We expect that Mr. Bellas will

2 be testifying to the effect that, on the basis of his

3 knowledge and experience, that many Prosecution

4 witnesses, that their testimony was not credible or

5 exaggerated.

6 The Defence will furthermore present

7 witnesses and lead evidence regarding the defendant,

8 Mr. Hazim Delic. We will call Dr. Buturovic, who

9 should testify about injuries sustained by Mr. Delic,

10 and his ability to walk and work in the months relevant

11 for the indictment.

12 We will also, in particular, call witnesses

13 who will challenge the testimony of Grozdana Cecez and

14 Milojka Antic, the witnesses who, according to those

15 two, were present during the events that they had

16 testified about, and the testimony of our witnesses

17 will refute the statements of those two Prosecution

18 witnesses. Our witnesses are Cosic and Ibrahimi as to

19 that fact.

20 So that would be, briefly, all I have to say,

21 and, with your permission, I would now like to call

22 witness Ziam Cosic.

23 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry. While we are

24 waiting, our LiveNote transcript is not working over

25 here. I think it's merely unplugged. If I could have

Page 13363

1 technical assistance on that. Thank you.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Swear the witness,

3 please.

4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honours, may I suggest

5 it be read aloud in English, then it can be translated

6 and then he can read it.


8 THE REGISTRAR: Witness, if you could repeat

9 me. I solemnly declare --

10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare.

11 THE REGISTRAR: -- that I will speak the

12 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 THE WITNESS: The whole truth and nothing but

14 the truth.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Take your seat, please.

16 MR. KARABDIC: If I may start.

17 WITNESS: Zaim Cosic

18 Examined by Mr. Karabdic

19 Q. Good morning, sir.

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. My name is Salih Karabdic, I am the Defence

22 Counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic. I will be asking some

23 questions, but before I start to examine you, I would

24 like to warn you of certain facts and give you certain

25 instructions of a technical nature.

Page 13364

1 Both you and I, we speak the Bosnian language

2 and we could be asking questions and giving answers

3 rather quickly. However, in accordance with the rules

4 and the statute of this Tribunal, all the testimony is

5 interpreted into English and French and it takes time

6 to do so. And that's why I would like to ask you not

7 to give your answer immediately, but to wait a while,

8 after I finish asking the questions, and then to give

9 your answer. Many of the questions you will be able to

10 answer with just "yes" and "no," but, please, don't do

11 so by nodding your head, but indicate clearly and

12 loudly "yes" and "no," because every word here is being

13 recorded, and the ladies in charge of that are unable

14 to note down your nodding.

15 Will you please give your full name to the

16 court.

17 A. My name is Ziam Cosic.

18 Q. When were you born and where?

19 A. I was born on the 30th of September, 1956, in

20 Idbar.

21 Q. And where do you live?

22 A. I reside at Idbar.

23 Q. What is your ethnic background?

24 A. My ethnic background is Bosniak.

25 Q. And what is your citizenship?

Page 13365

1 A. Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 Q. And your marital status? Do you have any

3 children?

4 A. I am married, father of five.

5 Q. What is your education?

6 A. I finished my primary education in Celebici

7 and graduated from high school in Sarajevo.

8 Q. What kind of a high school?

9 A. Carpentry.

10 Q. Did you do your national service in the JNA,

11 and if yes, please tell us when and where.

12 A. I started my national service on the 13th of

13 December, 1975, and I served in the JNA until the 3rd

14 of March, 1977. Yes, that's right, 1977.

15 Q. Where did you serve your national service?

16 A. In Prizen. That's in Kosovo.

17 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, Your Honours, the

18 television screen that normally shows what's happening

19 in the courtroom when we are in public session is

20 flickering, and I am not sure whether we are in a

21 public session or in a private session. We are

22 supposed to be in public session. I said I would

23 inform the court of that.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.


Page 13366

1 Q. While in the JNA, did you have any special

2 functions?

3 A. I graduated from a school in Prizen. That

4 was for the squad leader. And then I was appointed to

5 the function of the commander of the watch tower

6 Stojanovac at the Yugoslav Albanian border. And then I

7 was given the rank of Vodnik. That's Corporal.

8 Q. When you came back from the army, naturally,

9 as everybody else, you had to report to your military

10 department. Were you assigned to a certain duty or a

11 certain post?

12 A. I was assigned combat post in the municipal

13 headquarters in Konjic, the municipal headquarters of

14 the Territorial Defence.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would you kindly please

16 go to the type of evidence he is here to give. It is

17 not an issue in this matter.

18 MR. KARABDIC: I will strive to ask

19 questions, but it seems to me that this would be also

20 important for the understanding of the ensuing events.

21 But, thank you, Your Honours, for your caution. I will

22 try.

23 Q. You said that you lived in the village of

24 Idbar. How large is this village? How many

25 inhabitants?

Page 13367

1 A. Until the war, my village had around 120

2 households and around 400 inhabitants. About 15

3 households were Serbian, three Croatian, and the rest

4 were Bosniaks.

5 Q. What is the geographical location of the

6 village?

7 A. Idbar is in a valley surrounded by hills on

8 all sides, and there is a nice river flowing from Idbar

9 to Celebici. And the only route is the canyon of the

10 ^ Bastovic River.

11 Q. You told me that there were several people of

12 several ethnic backgrounds in your village before the

13 war. What were the relations between those various

14 nationalities in your village?

15 A. The relations were good until that time when

16 the Serbs held some kind of a plebiscite.

17 Q. Please, what happened in April, 1992, in your

18 village and in the surrounding areas? What contributed

19 to the changes in the circumstances and the conditions?

20 A. In early April, right at the beginning, Serbs

21 left. All the state authorities, such as the

22 Territorial Defence, the Ministry of the Interior, they

23 refused to recognise the independent state of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Q. I would like you to limit your answers to

Page 13368

1 your village. What happened in your village and the

2 surrounding villages?

3 A. Well, in the village itself there was

4 disorder. Roads were blocked by the Serbs, because

5 between my village, my hamlet and Celebici, there is a

6 Serbian hamlet, and they refused to participate

7 together with us in the defence of our country against

8 the aggression.

9 Q. How did you organise in your village in

10 relation to these events?

11 A. It wasn't easy. For us, this was something

12 completely abnormal and it was difficult to find your

13 way around in a situation like this when Chetniks came

14 from Nevesinge in the neighbouring Village of Bijela.

15 Q. How did these Chetniks behave in the Village

16 of Bijela and what kind of influence did this have on

17 your village?

18 A. Three young men immediately left our village

19 --

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't you think we'll be

21 much more interested in Delic than the experience of

22 this witness.


24 Q. Thank you, I will try to do that, but,

25 believe me, I will -- I am also trying to present all

Page 13369

1 the things that have to do with general allegations,

2 but I will try to be as short as possible. Thank you

3 very much, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We've heard so much from

5 so many witnesses about general disorganisation, about

6 that area, about that time. I don't think he can add

7 more to what all those who were actually participating

8 in it could say. We're here interested in the Defence

9 of the witness you've called, not of this witness, but

10 of the accused person who is here to be his witness.

11 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honour, Your Honour, it

12 is true that many have spoken about that here because

13 many have been witnesses here, a couple of generals,

14 brigadiers, commanders. This is a man from the

15 village, from life. And this man should tell us about

16 this life. I wanted him to tell us what it was like on

17 the ground. But, Your Honour, this is what it's

18 about.


20 MR. KARABDIC: I will certainly try to that.

21 I can't do it immediately, but all this is Defence.

22 Q. Mr. Cosic, did you in the village find out

23 that the other inhabitants, the Serbs, are buying

24 arms?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13370

1 Q. How did you find out about that?

2 A. In the hamlet, which was mostly inhabited by

3 the Serbs, there are two Bosniak families and they

4 watched these things happening over night and they were

5 telling this to the Territorial Defence.

6 JUDGE JAN: Please come directly to the

7 point, your Defence.


9 Q. Was a Territorial Defence unit formed in the

10 village?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who was the commander of that unit?

13 A. I was.

14 Q. Who decided that you should be the commander

15 of that unit?

16 A. The commander of the battalion, Sefik

17 Omerovic.

18 Q. How many members did your unit have in your

19 unit?

20 JUDGE JAN: Please be relevant.

21 MR. KARABDIC: I will try.

22 JUDGE JAN: That is totally irrelevant. How

23 are we interested? How does it prove or disprove the

24 allegations against you?

25 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, I don't want to

Page 13371

1 disrespect you, but I would like to say that this

2 witness will present the circumstances that -- about

3 the arming and buying of weapons. And this later has a

4 lot to do with the arrest. And with due respect, Your

5 Honours, this is relevant to the Defence.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Karabdic, the

7 Prosecution has given evidence and the Defence has

8 substantially corroborated what happened during that

9 period. Now what you are concerned in the Defence of

10 Delic is the specific allegations made against him.

11 Whatever you are now saying should be related to those

12 specific allegations. The general allegations are

13 there and I think you cannot change them. I think even

14 if you add to them, it may not make much of a

15 difference to them. But specific allegations which you

16 have called this witness to come and disprove is what

17 we want to hear from you.

18 JUDGE JAN: Did he himself arrest any of the

19 detainees? Ask him. Under what circumstances did they

20 arrest them?

21 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, I will come to

22 that point. With all due respect, Your Honours, I must

23 say that the Defence of my client, Hazim Delic, for

24 concrete allegations cannot be separated from the

25 Defence and from the general circumstances that were

Page 13372

1 present at the time.

2 JUDGE JAN: You're trying to show that the

3 detainees were carrying arms, they were rebels against

4 the authorities. Did he arrest any of them? And under

5 what circumstances did he arrest them? Please ask him

6 straight away.

7 MR. KARABDIC: I apologise, Your Honours, I

8 will pose this question after a number of introductory

9 questions and I would like to ask you to let me ask a

10 couple of more questions.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have introductory

12 questions to ask --

13 MR. KARABDIC: We will come to direct events

14 after a couple of questions. We will finish very

15 soon.

16 Q. How many members were there in your unit of

17 the Territorial Defence?

18 A. About a hundred.

19 Q. How much weapons did you have?

20 A. Eight rifles.

21 Q. What did you do to procure those hunting

22 rifles? What did you do first? Did you try to buy

23 those weapons from somebody?

24 A. I don't know. The higher command was doing

25 these things.

Page 13373

1 Q. Did you go to the Villages of Turije,

2 Zaslivlje and Zabrdje with regard to this?

3 A. Yes, we did. We went to Ljubina because of

4 the weapons, yes.

5 Q. Who was there in those three villages?

6 A. HVO was there.

7 Q. And did you reach an agreement with them,

8 with regard to the weapons and joint actions?

9 A. Yes, we did. They were to give us 14

10 weapons -- 14 rifles and uniforms and we were to hold

11 our positions together in Ljubina.

12 Q. Did you ever go to Ljubina and when?

13 A. I went to Ljubina for the first time on the

14 30th of April and then, after that, this position was

15 important throughout the war.

16 Q. What did you see from Ljubina? What was

17 happening in the other villages, in the villages

18 of Bijela and others?

19 A. From Bijela you can see Konjic, Bijela,

20 Orahovica, Celebici, Idbar, Toria, Salsia (phoen) and

21 all the other villages. And I saw that the Serbs were

22 burning everything that was non-Serb. They burned a

23 factory, a saw mill in -- which was, which was owned by

24 the Croats, I think it was in Vidackovic.

25 Q. Did you see that some houses were burning and

Page 13374

1 whose houses were those?

2 A. Houses belonging both to Bosniaks and Croats

3 were burning, everything which was burning was non-Serb

4 was burning by the Chetniks. And at night, their

5 houses -- some houses and some villages would use some

6 light signals and all this was very confusing for us.

7 And they had some signals with which they would

8 communicate amongst each other within our villages and

9 amongst the Serbs and their military formations which

10 were attacking us.

11 Q. When was the attack on Ljubina? And did you

12 get any notice of this beforehand?

13 A. The information about this we received from

14 Esad Ramic.

15 Q. What did he say?

16 A. He said that the Chetniks from Bijela would

17 attack us on Ljubina and that we must strengthen our

18 forces. And then immediately that night we went with

19 more people and there were already soldiers in Ljubina,

20 but we strengthened our forces at night. And this

21 night was the night between the 6th and the 7th and the

22 battle took place around noon, they attacked us on the

23 7th of May.

24 JUDGE JAN: Of which month?

25 THE WITNESS: Of May. On the 7th of May, the

Page 13375

1 battle took place.


3 Q. And what was the result of the battle?

4 A. The result was we had four dead: one Bosniak

5 and three Croats.

6 Q. And did the -- and could the Chetniks pass?

7 A. No, they could not. No, they did not pass

8 that time because we managed to throw them back if they

9 had passed then.

10 Q. This is what you think would have happened.

11 When you came to the Village of this event, what did

12 you find out, what happened in the village during the

13 time you were away?

14 A. While we were in Ljubina, a patrol came to

15 the village. I found out about this in the evening

16 when I came back. This patrol belonged to the Ministry

17 of Internal Affairs, to the police and the military

18 police and HVO and they searched the village and they

19 found the weapons. They found some weapons in the Serb

20 houses who lived in the village.

21 Q. Could you tell us what kind of weapons were

22 found?

23 A. They found one machine gun, M-53, and some

24 M-48s, rifles.

25 Q. Did you receive any of the weapons from those

Page 13376

1 weapons that were seized, your unit?

2 A. Yes, Rale brought me six rifles from all that

3 ammunition.

4 Q. You mentioned Rale, was Rale in this patrol

5 that searched the village?

6 A. I was not in the village when they were

7 searching it.

8 Q. Did you know what kind of ammunition you got

9 at this time?

10 A. Yes. I noted it on the 29th.

11 Q. But at this time, what kind of weapons were

12 these six rifles that you got?

13 A. A machine gun was found at Simo Jovanovic's.

14 It was an M-53 and then other rifles, M-48, military

15 rifles.

16 Q. What happened to those Serbs, in whose houses

17 where these weapons were found?

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't know what you

19 are trying to do, whether this has, in any event, any

20 connection with the accused person himself. How does

21 all these things concern him?

22 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, this will be

23 shown shortly. My weapons -- my defendant, Your

24 Honours, with all due respect, I must say that my

25 defendant has also been charged with unlawful detention

Page 13377

1 of civilians and for everything.

2 JUDGE JAN: If arrested any of the

3 detainees and there were circumstances, he arrested

4 them.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Not this witness.

6 JUDGE JAN: You are talking about generally

7 what happened. You're talking about detainees in the

8 Celebici camp.


10 Q. Sir, did those people, were those people

11 arrested, those people in whose houses you found

12 weapons?

13 A. The police took them away on the 9th of May,

14 after the barrel of my father.

15 Q. So as far as I understand, they were not

16 taken away immediately, but on the 9th of May the

17 police came to get them?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. Who was arrested as far as you can remember?

20 Who was taken away from you village at that time, as

21 far as you can remember?

22 A. They took away Vojo Jovanovic, Mirko Antic,

23 Cedo Antic. Simo tried to escape.

24 Q. Which Simo?

25 A. Simo Jovanovic.

Page 13378

1 Q. And what happened with Simo?

2 A. They caught up with him at Prenj, the members

3 of the police and they took him to Celebici.

4 Q. Do you know what kind of weapons were found

5 at Simo Jovanovic's?

6 A. I already said that, M-53s, a light machine

7 gun.

8 Q. Did you find any weapons after this event in

9 your village?

10 A. Yes, on the 28th of May and on the 29th of

11 May.

12 Q. Under whose command was this done and who

13 found these weapons?

14 A. They came from the police, Dzevad Alibasic

15 and Almir Mulic. They are members of the police and

16 were responsible for Idbar. And in cooperation with

17 Sefik Omerovic this was done.

18 Q. And what was found at this time?

19 A. At this time I wrote it down. On the 28th of

20 May, a rifle, a PAP rifle, it's a semi-automatic rifle.

21 MS. McHENRY: May I? Just excuse me. I see

22 that the witness is reading from a document and I would

23 just ask Defence counsel to provide us a copy of the

24 document.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He said he wrote it

Page 13379

1 down.

2 MS. McHENRY: I am not objecting, I am just

3 asking for a copy for us to look at.

4 MR. KARABDIC: Yes, we will provide a copy

5 immediately at the break. Please go ahead.

6 A. So one semi-automatic rifle, No. 352127. It

7 was found at Jovanovic Krijk (phoen). Rifle No. M-48,

8 130-41. Also found in a shed next to the house, which

9 belonged to his son, Velimir Jovanovic, we wrote Rajko

10 Jovanovic. And some bombs, two pieces, hand bombs, and

11 a lot of ammunition, uniforms and crates. And on 29th

12 we found an M-48, 630-28 rifles at Cedo Antic's. And

13 then he said later, Omerovic told me so, that this was

14 a gun which belonged to Mirko Antic. A rifle, M-48,

15 250-80, Ilija Jovanovic, a hunting rifle, 731-444,

16 found at Milovan Jovanovic. A rocket launcher, M-55,

17 890 at Savo Antic's and one crate of mines. This was

18 found at that time.

19 Q. Were these persons arrested?

20 A. No, not at this time, after about a

21 fortnight. Alibasic and Muhic came and we were

22 surrounding the territory and then they went in. And

23 they took them to the fishery.

24 Q. Was Milojka Antic arrested at this time?

25 A. Yes, she was.

Page 13380

1 Q. Why?

2 A. Probably because her brother told her that it

3 was her rifle that they found.

4 Q. You said that these people were taken to the

5 fishery next to the village, who took them over there?

6 A. A person -- a truck -- a tram took them

7 there.

8 Q. Were these people maltreated and were they

9 abused during the arrest? How were they treated?

10 A. No, nobody was maltreated. On the contrary,

11 we protected them to avoid any maltreatment of these

12 people because these were our neighbours that we lived

13 with and worked with and cooperated with.

14 Q. Where were they taken?

15 A. I don't know. I never interested myself in

16 these people ever again.

17 Q. Did you hear that they were taken to Celebici

18 camp?

19 A. I don't know. I don't know where they were

20 taken.

21 Q. Please, generally speaking, have you ever

22 been in the barracks, Celebici?

23 A. No, I never entered. Through this gate, I

24 see it in front of me, it seems that this is -- we went

25 there in August to -- for a solemn declaration, but

Page 13381

1 from the other side. I never entered the camp through

2 the main gate.

3 Q. What kind of a solemn swearing was this?

4 A. It was the declaration for the army of the

5 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 Q. After this event, did you ever go to the

7 barracks, Celebici?

8 A. No.

9 MR. KARABDIC: This is all, Your Honours, I

10 have finished with the examination of this witness.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you any questions

12 for this witness?

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Defence counsel for Mr.

14 Delalic has no questions, Your Honours.

15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honours, Defence for

16 Mr. Mucic has no questions.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions from

18 Landzo's corner?

19 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, we have a

20 few brief questions. May I question from here? Thank

21 you.

22 Cross-examined by Ms. McMurrey

23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Cosic. I am Cynthia

24 McMurrey and I represent Mr. Esad Landzo. And we have

25 never had an opportunity to speak before, have we?

Page 13382

1 A. No.

2 Q. You are from the Village of Idbar; isn't that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And the Village at Idbar, I believe, is about

6 120 households and out of the 120 households, about

7 fifteen of those were considered Serb households, is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And in your testimony just a moment ago, you

11 testified that the Serbs that were arrested in Idbar,

12 they were taken to a fishery. Now, the fishery you're

13 referring to is the business owned by Simo Jovanovic,

14 wasn't it?

15 A. Yes, in Idbar.

16 Q. And you testified that Mr. Jovanovic was

17 arrested because he had really collected a fairly large

18 arsenal of weapons on his property, would that be true?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And Mr. Javanovic in Idbar was considered a

21 wealthy man, was he not?

22 A. Well, there were some Muslims who were rich.

23 Q. But, by the standards in the village, he had

24 a business and he had a home, and so, by most of the

25 standards, he would be one of the wealthier citizens in

Page 13383

1 the village of Idbar? Would that be accurate or not?

2 A. Well, yes, relatively speaking, because he

3 was given some loans by the municipality, some

4 agricultural loans.

5 Q. You testified that once he was arrested and

6 sent to Celebici, you don't know what happened to

7 Mr. Jovanovic after that point, do you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know what happened to his property in

10 Idbar?

11 A. The house still stands, and we have our

12 school there, because our real school was destroyed by

13 the Chetniks. The fishery still stands. Everything is

14 there just as it used to be.

15 Q. And so would it be fair to say that the

16 people of Idbar, basically, took over the property of

17 Mr. Jovanovic?

18 A. Well, in a certain sense, yes. It is being

19 guarded, because the school is in that house.

20 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much,

21 Mr. Cosic. I have no further questions.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions from the

23 Prosecution, please.

24 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour. And I can

25 either start now and then during the break review the

Page 13384

1 piece of paper, or we can take the break now and I will

2 do everything all at once. It's up to Your Honours.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can start now. The

4 piece of paper merely reinforces his memory.

5 MS. McHENRY: That's fine, Your Honour.

6 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry

7 Q. Sir, when you say Mr. Jovanovic's house is

8 being guarded, what do you mean by that? Are you

9 suggesting that his house is being guarded in

10 safekeeping for Mr. Jovanovic?

11 JUDGE JAN: He answered that. He said they

12 are running a school there.

13 MS. McHENRY: Yes. That's right, he answered

14 it, but he also said then it was being guarded.

15 Q. Sir, would you agree that the house and the

16 other belongings of Mr. Jovanovic have been taken over

17 by the village of Idbar and are not being kept for the

18 use of Mr. Jovanovic?

19 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to

20 object. That's asked and answered.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has answered. He did

22 say in some sense, yes, because they are using this

23 building for the school. His answer still stands as

24 they have always been. That's what he said.


Page 13385

1 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that

2 Mr. Jovanovic has no chance of ever getting any of that

3 property back, does he?

4 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on) -- they can

5 go back and take over the property. He already

6 answered that question.

7 MR. KARABDIC: I object to this line of

8 questioning. This is a question relating to the peace

9 accords and the return of the refugees.

10 THE WITNESS: If I may be allowed to answer.

11 In our parts, the private property is sacrosanct. His

12 wife went there recently. It's her private property.

13 Nobody has any right to that. It's just his and his

14 wife's.


16 Q. You are aware, sir, aren't you, that

17 Mr. Jovanovic was murdered in Celebici?

18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to

19 object. He said he didn't know what happened to the

20 Serb detainees once they left Idbar, number one; and

21 number two, that has not been proven in this case.

22 That's an issue for the court.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you are quite

24 correct. That was his answer. He didn't know what

25 happened to him thereafter.

Page 13386

1 MS. McHENRY: Fine. Sir, I will move on.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The answers of the

3 witnesses -- when you are cross-examining, if the

4 answers are clear and not contradicted so far, you

5 don't have to cross-examine him on that. He's answered

6 it properly and I don't see the point in asking him for

7 that.


9 Q. Well, sir, after he was arrested and taken to

10 Celebici, you've never seen Mr. Jovanovic again, have

11 you?

12 JUDGE JAN: He said that he was taken to

13 Celebici.

14 MS. McHENRY: I believe he said he was one of

15 the people who was --

16 Q. Sir, after Mr. Jovanovic was arrested and

17 taken away, have you ever had an opportunity to see him

18 again?

19 A. No, I never saw any of those people.

20 Q. Now, when you were talking about in the

21 beginning, when Mr. Karabdic was asking you about the

22 background and you talked about some Chetniks from

23 Bijela. Is Bijela part of Konjic or not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And was it, sir, your opinion, at the time

Page 13387

1 that these persons were arrested, that the Serbs in

2 Idbar who were arrested were part of the Serb forces

3 attacking Bosnia?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, you talked about some weapons that were

6 taken, and you initially talked about some weapons that

7 were taken on the 9th of May. Now, first of all, are

8 you sure that it was the 9th of May or was it the 20th

9 of May?

10 A. The weapons seized before the 9th of May, and

11 on the 9th of May they were taken away, after my

12 father's funeral.

13 Q. And -- let me go on. And some of those

14 weapons were legal hunting weapons that were found at

15 that time, weren't they?

16 A. Those who had hunting weapons in Idbar, such

17 as Djordjo Jovanovic, Ilija Jovanovic, they immediately

18 joined the Chetniks in Bijela.

19 Q. The question was: In addition to the --

20 whatever weapons you've already testified about, you

21 would agree with me that some of the weapons that were

22 found were legal hunting weapons; is that correct?

23 A. In accordance with the law on hunting, one is

24 not allowed to have mortar, sniper rifles, military

25 weapons, automatic weapons and things like that.

Page 13388

1 Q. Sir, my question was: Were there any legal

2 hunting weapons found?

3 A. One hunting rifle was found at Mirko's.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, before my

5 colleague continues, I would like to warn that in this

6 transcript on several occasions, instead of the name of

7 the village of Bijela, we have the name of the

8 mountain, which is quite far away from this area, the

9 mountain of Bjelasnica. So I would like to have this

10 corrected, Bijela, not Bjelasnica.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.


13 Q. Now, sir, with respect to the weapons that

14 were seized on the 9th of May, you weren't present and

15 you have no personal knowledge about any of that; is

16 that correct?

17 A. No.

18 Q. I'm sorry, am I correct that you weren't

19 there and you have no personal knowledge?

20 A. I have knowledge from what Rale told me and

21 the six pieces of weapons that he brought me.

22 Q. And at that time did Rale tell you from whose

23 house every single weapon came from?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did you write that down or you just --

Page 13389

1 are you just testifying from your own memory from what

2 he told you in 1992?

3 A. Well, from my recollection, but also because

4 I immediately issued those weapons to my soldiers, and

5 that's how I know about those weapons.

6 Q. Okay. Well, sir, would you agree with me

7 that previously you stated that Mr. ^ Spasoje

8 Jovanovic, Mr. Mirko Antic, Mr. ^ Rado Antic, all had

9 hunting rifles that were taken at that time?

10 A. They had those weapons, but they never were

11 hunters. They were able to obtain all kinds of

12 weapons.

13 Q. So you would agree with me that they were

14 normally considered hunting weapons, but because they

15 weren't hunters, you don't consider them hunting

16 weapons; is that your testimony?

17 A. Not in Bosnia, because nobody in Bosniak can

18 have weapons if they are not hunters and if they don't

19 have the licence to have those weapons.

20 Q. So you would also agree with me that

21 previously you gave a statement in which you indicated

22 that all this happened on the 20th of May, not the 9th

23 of May; is that correct?

24 A. No. On the 9th of May. This is when they

25 were taken away, not on the 20th.

Page 13390

1 Q. Now, you also testified about some weapons

2 that were seized on the 28th and 29th. Were you

3 present when those -- all those weapons were seized?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you indicated that there was an M48 that

6 you later heard had been taken from -- had been issued

7 to Milojka Antic; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And where was that M48 found?

10 A. It was found next to a place where meat is

11 cured. It was buried in the flower bed next to the

12 place where the meat is dried.

13 Q. Were you actually present when it was

14 uncovered?

15 A. Yes. Sefik Omerovic was with me.

16 Q. Is that the time when you wrote down the

17 serial number? Is that the time that you wrote down

18 the serial number of that M48?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What is the serial number of that M48 that

21 you found on May 28th or 9th?

22 A. 63028.

23 Q. Now, when was it that somebody told you that

24 that was Mrs. Antic's rifle?

25 A. A day or two later Omerovic told me that this

Page 13391

1 was a rifle belonging to Milojka Antic.

2 Q. And did you ask Mr. Omerovic who told you

3 about this? Did you ask him how he knew of that?

4 A. Mr. Omerovic was the commander of the

5 detachment and he sometimes had consultations with the

6 Ministry of the Interior and the chain of command from

7 the staff to the smallest unit.

8 Q. Do I take it, sir, that you have no idea how

9 Mr. Omerovic, where he received this information?

10 A. Well, probably at the barracks in the

11 Celebici barracks.

12 Q. Is it correct that you, yourself, have no

13 information about where he received it, and you are

14 just guessing?

15 A. Well, I don't know, because all the weapons

16 were immediately issued to the soldiers. We, as the

17 Territorial Defence, did not really think about it. We

18 had more serious tasks, such as the defence at Ljubina,

19 Orahovica, Turije, Prenj and so on.

20 Q. You know Mrs. Antic, don't you?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. And she would be a middle-aged woman who

23 lived with her elderly mother; is that correct?

24 A. Well, if she had gotten married, she would

25 probably have been a mother.

Page 13392

1 JUDGE JAN: The question was whether she

2 lived with her mother in Idbar.

3 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, she did. She lived

4 with her mother and her brother. They were next door

5 neighbours.

6 Q. And let me go back. When you say that

7 Mr. Omerovic was commander of the detachment, what

8 detachment are you referring to?

9 A. That wasn't a platoon, that was the Ljubina

10 detachment. It was composed of several companies or

11 units, the Orahovica, Celebici, Zabrdje and Idbar. So

12 he was the commander of the larger unit, subordinate --

13 super ordinate unit.

14 Q. And he was your superior; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. Did you and everyone else in your unit have a

17 uniform, wear a uniform?

18 A. We had uniforms. Not all of us, but we -- so

19 whoever was at the line had to be in a uniform. We had

20 about 15 uniforms, so we would take turns wearing the

21 uniforms. As soon you got onto the line, defence line,

22 you put on the uniform.

23 Q. Now, what kind of insignia did the uniforms

24 have?

25 A. The Territorial Defence insignia. Some

Page 13393

1 people did have those insignias, some didn't, depending

2 on the availability.

3 Q. Now, sir, let me move forward. It was you

4 personally who arrested Ms. Antic; is that correct?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Who actually arrested Ms. Antic then?

7 A. Dzevad Alibasic and Almir Mulic.

8 Q. Were you the third person present at the time

9 she was arrested?

10 A. Myself and Omerovic followed them, because

11 our unit provided the security, the guards around the

12 village.

13 Q. Okay. And Mrs. Antic talked to you when she

14 was arrested, because you were the only person she

15 knew; is that correct?

16 A. No. She knew other people too, but they did

17 not live there. Alibasic lived in Celebici and Almir

18 lived in Konjic, and that's why she talked to me.

19 Q. And what did she say to you?

20 A. She asked me how long she would be staying

21 there.

22 Q. She asked you how long she would be staying

23 at Celebici?

24 A. Not in Celebici. Celebici was not mentioned.

25 Q. Well, when she asked you how long would she

Page 13394

1 be staying there, what "there" was she referring to?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Didn't she ask you whether or not she could

4 go inside and change her clothes also, and you told her

5 "no"?

6 A. No, she did not ask me that.

7 Q. Did she ask that something be done to take

8 care of her elderly mother?

9 A. No. No, she did not ask me that.

10 Q. And was there a search done of Ms. Antic's

11 house at any time when you were present, or in the

12 area?

13 A. No, we did not enter houses because her rifle

14 was found in the yard next to the place where the meat

15 was dried.

16 Q. Now, did anyone -- what was told to

17 Mrs. Antic about why she was being arrested?

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Was he the person who

19 arrested her?

20 MS. McHENRY: He said he was present at the

21 time.

22 Q. Sir, what was told to Mrs. Antic about why

23 she was being arrested?

24 A. She was told that this matter will be

25 examined by some kind of a commission, and that if she

Page 13395

1 were to be found guilty, she would be detained for a

2 certain period of time.

3 Q. And it was you who told Mrs. Antic that; is

4 that correct?

5 A. Yes, that's what I told her.

6 Q. And when you -- did you -- did you tell her

7 that she was suspected of having a transmitter?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you tell her that she was suspected of

10 having a gun?

11 A. No, because it was not our business. This

12 was up to the Ministry of the Interior.

13 Q. So you would agree with me that Mrs. Antic

14 wasn't told anything about why she was being arrested?

15 A. Nobody told her anything about that

16 beforehand.

17 Q. And, sir, is it your testimony that at this

18 time you had no idea whatsoever that Mrs. Antic was

19 being -- was going to be brought to Celebici?

20 A. I did not understand the question.

21 Q. My question is: Is it your testimony that at

22 this time you had no idea whatsoever that Mrs. Antic

23 was being brought to Celebici?

24 A. Well, the only place she could have gone to

25 by car from Idbar was Celebici.

Page 13396

1 Q. I am going to ask that the witness be shown

2 Defence Exhibit 1 -- D145/A7-31. While you are looking

3 for it, let me just go forward.

4 Sir, did you ever receive any information

5 that any other weapons were found in Idbar after the

6 28th and 29th?

7 MR. MORAN: We may be able to short circuit

8 some of this process. We are about to introduce

9 through another witness that document for the truth of

10 the matter asserted. And I have extra copies for the

11 court. So that the court can have them, we can just

12 hand them out now, so that you know what we are talking

13 about.

14 MS. McHENRY: Sir --

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, no the direction of

16 this cross-examination ends first.

17 MS. McHENRY: I think we are going to have

18 our break in a few minutes and maybe we can get the

19 document then.

20 Q. Sir, after the 28th and 29th, do you have any

21 information that any other weapons were ever found in

22 Idbar?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And when were the other weapons found?

25 A. I don't know when it was, precisely, but

Page 13397

1 members of the MUP and the HVO military police came and

2 they searched the place. We, as the Territorial

3 Defence, had nothing to do with it.

4 Q. Well, going back to the rifle that was found

5 that you later heard had belonged to Milojka Antic.

6 Whose chicken coop was it found near? Was it on

7 Ms. Antic's property or not?

8 A. Yes, on the property of Milojka Antic.

9 Q. And did you ever -- and did you ever learn

10 whether or not there were any other weapons found on

11 that same property?

12 A. I heard that another rifle was found, but I

13 don't know anything about that rifle because it never

14 reached my company, my unit.

15 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, if this is time

16 for the break, I think when I come back I'll just have

17 one or two additional questions and then be finished.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

19 now rise and reassemble at noon.

20 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.10 p.m.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the

23 witness he's still on his oath.

24 THE REGISTRAR: May I remind you that you are

25 still under oath.

Page 13398

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may sit down,

2 please.

3 MS. McHENRY: May I proceed, Your Honour?

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.

5 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

6 Q. Now, sir, previously, you would agree with

7 me, that you stated that you and other members of the

8 TO arrested Miloka Antic on the 29th of May, 1992;

9 that's correct, isn't it?

10 A. No, it's not.

11 Q. Is it correct that you've stated previously

12 that you and other members of the TO arrested Miloka

13 Antic on the 29th of May?

14 A. The TO didn't arrest anybody. They only

15 guarded the village, the area around the village.

16 Q. Well, sir, is it correct that previously in a

17 written statement you gave to the Defence, you stated

18 that it was you and other members of the TO who

19 arrested Mrs. Antic and that it happened on the 29th of

20 May?

21 A. That is not correct and it did not happen on

22 the 29th of May.

23 Q. May I just ask that the witness be shown --

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You want him to say that

25 he's never said that or it never happened like that?

Page 13399

1 He's now saying that that is not the fact.

2 MS. McHENRY: That's correct.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But you're saying that

4 he said that to the Defence.

5 MS. McHENRY: That's correct, Your Honour.

6 Q. And I put a yellow sticker, just to help you,

7 sir, direct you to the portion that I am referring to.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked 253.


10 Q. Sir, can I ask that you look at the document

11 that you've been given. Sir, is this a copy of a

12 statement that you previously gave to a Defence

13 investigator?

14 A. Yes, but it was a long time ago.

15 Q. And I am going to direct you to where the

16 yellow sticker was, and can you tell me if it states

17 that "On the 29th of May, 1992, on a verbal order of

18 Sefik Omerovic, commander of the Ljubina unit, I and a

19 group of TO members remanded in custody, the following

20 persons?" And then one of the names is Mrs. Antic.

21 Sir, is that what the document says?

22 A. It says in the document, but she wasn't

23 arrested at that time and neither were these other

24 people. This is a mistake of the person who was

25 writing this.

Page 13400

1 Q. And since then, have you talked to anyone who

2 reminded you of the correct date?

3 A. No, I did not.

4 Q. Certainly, sir, you would agree with me that

5 you've talked about your testimony with Defence

6 investigators before you came here, with Defence

7 representatives, haven't you?

8 A. Only with Nehir.

9 Q. Now, is it your testimony, sir, in the

10 statement where it says that you were the one who

11 arrested Mrs. Antic, is that a mistake also?

12 A. It is a mistake, the Territorial Defence did

13 not arrest anyone.

14 Q. And did you have a chance to read that

15 statement before you signed it?

16 A. No, I didn't. I thought there was no need

17 and I only signed it.

18 Q. Let me go back, sir, to a different

19 question. I have no more questions from this

20 document. You would agree with me that the notes you

21 took on the 28th and 29th of May, that you were looking

22 at during your direct testimony, you would agree that

23 there's nothing in those notes that indicates that any

24 weapon found had anything to do with Miloka Antic; is

25 that correct, sir?

Page 13401

1 A. We wrote that and we stated that as if the

2 weapons belonged to her brother, but Omerovic told me

3 later that her brother said that the weapon belonged to

4 Miloka.

5 Q. I understand that, sir, I am just clarifying

6 that the records you took at the time don't mention

7 anything whatsoever about Miloka Antic; is that

8 correct?

9 A. It is not mentioned in the notes.

10 Q. Now, you would also agree with me, sir, that

11 on the 28th and the 29th, you and the soldiers and

12 other military persons, took a large amount of food and

13 some alcohol from Serb families living in Idbar; is

14 that correct?

15 A. No, it isn't.

16 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that your notes

17 indicate that a large amount of food and some alcohol

18 were taken; is that correct?

19 A. No, it is not. Everything was outside of the

20 houses, the TO only searched the area and nobody went

21 into any of the houses.

22 Q. Well, sir, when it talks about in addition to

23 some weapons, when it talks about 100 kilos of potato,

24 and sugar, 90 kilograms of potatoes and sugar and flour

25 and brandy being taken, where were those things taken

Page 13402

1 from?

2 A. These things were taken from some sheds,

3 bunkers, outside of the houses, none of this was found

4 inside the houses, nobody entered the houses.

5 Q. You would agree with me, sir, that then a

6 large amount of food and some alcohol was taken from

7 the Serb families in Idbar, even if it wasn't taken,

8 according to you, from their houses; Is that correct?

9 A. It did not belong to the Serb families, it

10 was not taken from them.

11 Q. Who did it belong to, sir?

12 A. It probably belonged to the military

13 formations.

14 Q. And how did you determine that, sir, that it

15 belonged to the military formations and not the

16 families?

17 A. We did not determine that.

18 MS. McHENRY: No further questions, thank

19 you.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

21 Any re-examination, please? You have no

22 re-examination?

23 MR. KARABDIC: I have.

24 Re-examined by Mr. Karabdic.

25 Q. Please, this food that has been mentioned,

Page 13403

1 was this food found together with the weapons that you

2 found, did you find the food next to the weapons?

3 A. No, not next to the weapons. The food was

4 found outside of the houses in bunkers and the weapons

5 were usually dugged.

6 Q. Since the food was hidden, is that how you

7 concluded that this food was prepared for military

8 purposes?

9 A. It served for military purposes, for

10 logistics of their gangs.

11 Q. Okay. You also mentioned that you saw in

12 Bijela that some Chetnik forces attacked you in Bijela,

13 could you tell us what kind of forces these were and

14 how were they dressed?

15 A. They wore olive green/grey uniforms belonging

16 to the JNA. On their heads they had caps, high rising

17 caps, fur hats and they had (no translation) on the

18 caps.

19 Q. Please, when Simo Jovanovic was taken away

20 from Idbar, what happened to his family?

21 A. They stayed there to live normally, his

22 father and his mother and his wife.

23 Q. Did they take care of his property?

24 A. Yes, they did, his father and his mother.

25 Q. Please, could you tell me, if there were

Page 13404

1 Serbs in Idbar who spent the whole time with you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. They did not have any weapons?

4 A. No, they did not have weapons. Those who

5 stayed there for the whole time did not have any

6 weapons. And there are still Serbs living with us

7 today.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This did not an arise

9 from cross examination.

10 MR. KARABDIC: I have no more questions.

11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honours, if I may

12 interrupt for a moment. Page 46, line 17, the marking

13 on the cap was not translated, I believe the witness

14 had said there were skull and crossbones marking on the

15 cap and that is not in translation.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for

17 your correction. Thank you very much, Mr. Cosic, I

18 think this is all for you. You are discharged.

19 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your

20 Honours.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can now leave.

22 (The witness withdrew)

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Karabdic, can you

24 call your next witness, please.

25 MR. KARABDIC: I would like to call the

Page 13405

1 witness Ramic, Agan.

2 (The witness entered court)

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly let the witness

4 take the oath.

5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

6 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

7 truth.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may take your

9 seat, please.


11 Examined by Mr. Karabdic:

12 Q. Good morning, sir.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. My name is Salih Karabdic and I am defending

15 Mr. Hazim Delic. I would like to ask you a couple of

16 questions, but before that, I would like to give you a

17 few instructions. Since the official languages are

18 English and French, everything that the two of us will

19 be speaking in the Bosnian language, will have to be

20 translated into one of the two official languages.

21 This takes time, therefore, I would like to ask you not

22 to hurry and to wait for a while until my questions are

23 interpreted and then to reply and to reply slowly. Do

24 not give your answers by nodding or by doing something

25 else. If you would like to say "yes" or "no", please

Page 13406

1 say so. Whatever is uttered here in this Court must be

2 written down in the transcript. Did you understand

3 this?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Please say your name?

6 A. My name is Ramic, Agan.

7 Q. When were you born?

8 A. I was born on March 17th, 1962.

9 Q. Where do you live?

10 A. In Brdani, Municipality of Konjic.

11 Q. Where were you at the beginning of the war,

12 that is to say on April the 6th, 1992?

13 A. I was in Brdani.

14 Q. Were you engaged in the defence?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Which unit did you join?

17 A. We were an independent platoon which belonged

18 to the detachment of Zupcanik. We actually belonged to

19 the TO.

20 Q. During the process of mobilisation, did all

21 citizens respond to this mobilisation, including the

22 citizens of Serbian nationality?

23 A. No, not all citizens joined the

24 mobilisation. People who were Serbs did not respond to

25 this.

Page 13407

1 Q. Did you have any information that persons of

2 Serb nationality were armed?

3 A. Yes, we did. We had some information that

4 they were armed. And this is precisely the reason,

5 precisely for this reason we decided to organise

6 ourselves and also to arm ourselves and to prepare.

7 Q. Who was the commander of this unit of yours

8 in your village?

9 A. I was the commander. And the overall

10 commander, the commander of the detachment that we

11 belonged to was Mr. Zavko (sic).

12 Q. Did you try to reach an agreement in a

13 peaceful way with the citizens of Serb nationality with

14 respect to the outbreak of the war, so that you would

15 not attack each other and defend the village together?

16 A. Yes, we did. Several times we negotiated

17 with people of Serb nationality. And the members of

18 the municipality staff of TO have suggested at those

19 times to the Serbs to join the units of TO or to hand

20 in the weapons that they have if they don't want to

21 join.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, before my

23 colleague continues there is a mistake in the

24 transcript. The question stating who was the

25 commander. The response said Mr. "Zavko". The witness

Page 13408

1 stated another name and it would be good to say again

2 who this commander was, who was the commander of his

3 detachment.

4 MR. KARABDIC: You heard, could you please

5 say what his name was?

6 JUDGE JAN: Zovko, that's what he said.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: He said that he was the

8 commander of his village, but the overall commander,

9 the name of the overall commander was written in the

10 wrong way and I would like to say that the witness

11 restates the name of the overall commander so that this

12 can be changed in the transcript.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay, ask your question.


15 Q. You have heard the statement. Please, who

16 was the commander of the detachment that your unit

17 belonged to, your unit in the village?

18 A. The commander was Zvonko Zovko and his

19 headquarters were in Podgradac.

20 Q. I didn't fully hear your response, your

21 attempts.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's not get the name

23 again because it doesn't sound right from what I read

24 here.


Page 13409

1 Q. Could you, please, clearly state the name of

2 the commander of the detachment?

3 A. The commander of the detachment was Zovko,

4 Z-o-v-k-o, Zvonko, Z-v-o-n-k-o, and the headquarters

5 was in Podgradac.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: The name is Zvonko Zovko and

7 maybe the interpreter does not get it.

8 MR. KARABDIC: Well, it might not be that

9 important.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It might be. I think,

11 let's get it correct, let's know what the name is.

12 It's important.


14 Q. Could the usher please hand a piece of paper

15 to the witness so that he could write down the name

16 with the correct spelling, please.

17 JUDGE JAN: But is it really important that

18 his name should be correctly spelled?

19 MR. KARABDIC: This name has been mentioned

20 on a number of occasions in these proceedings and I

21 believe that other certain facts can be established

22 through this and it has to do with the relations

23 between the Croats and Muslims. I am going to read it

24 out and I am going to spell it out.

25 MR. KARABDIC: Z-O-K-O. That is the last

Page 13410

1 name, Zovko Zvonko.

2 May I proceed, Your Honours?

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.


5 Q. Earlier you said, when I asked you were there

6 any conversations conducted with the citizens of

7 Serbian ethnic group and what were the results of these

8 conversations, what did you talk about, given the new

9 situation, the war and the joint defence and such?

10 A. Yes. We negotiated with the citizens of the

11 Serbian ethnic group on several occasions, and we

12 proposed that the Serbs join Territorial Defence or

13 that they surrender weapons. However, the last time we

14 had negotiations, part of the Serbs who did not show up

15 at the negotiations were armed and they were already up

16 in the surrounding hills ready to fight. Part of the

17 Serbs, those among the Serbs who were ready to sign

18 something, we were unable to sign anything with them

19 because the Serbs in the hills started shooting. And

20 this was in Brdani.

21 Q. If I understood you correctly, you were

22 attacked by those from the hills?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you manage to defend yourselves?

25 A. We did manage to defend ourselves. We broke

Page 13411

1 up these Chetnik forces, which subsequently escaped to

2 Bradina and joined the forces in Bradina.

3 Q. On the occasion of the liberation of Bradina,

4 did your unit take part in it?

5 A. Yes, my unit took part in the area from

6 Brdani towards Bradina, in other words, it held that

7 corridor, because we knew that the Serbs who were going

8 to flee were going to go -- would flee from that

9 direction of Brdani so that our forces could be there

10 and disarm them.

11 Q. Did this happen?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you capture any Serbs, how many did you

14 capture, and did you disarm them?

15 A. During their attempt to go back to Brdani,

16 part of the Serbs was disarmed, and those who were

17 hiding in the hills came down two or three days later

18 to lay down their arms.

19 Q. What happened to those people?

20 A. Those persons were released to their homes,

21 and they continued to live there and nobody touched

22 them, up until a day when an order came from Zvonko

23 Zovko stating that all Serbs who had weapons and took

24 part in the combat operations at Bradina should report

25 to the command post in Podorase. From there they were

Page 13412

1 then transferred in a truck to the Celebici prison.

2 Q. Did these persons then surrender their

3 weapons?

4 A. The majority of them did surrender their

5 weapons, and later on they came together with the HVO

6 police members, or the HVO police members would come

7 and they would tell them -- they had been told where

8 they had hidden the weapons. In other words, they were

9 -- they would come to say where they had hidden the

10 weapons.

11 Q. Were you present when they were surrendering

12 weapons?

13 A. Yes. They were surrendering weapons to me

14 personally and to Zvonko Zovko.

15 Q. Did you compile a list of these weapons?

16 A. Yes, a list was compiled. The registration

17 number of the rifle or the weapon would be taken down,

18 the number of bullets and so on.

19 Q. Do you recall what was surrendered at that

20 time, what was -- can you recall what some individual

21 citizens surrendered?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you please -- can you do it on your own

24 or shall I prompt you?

25 A. Yeah, I can do it on my own. I remember.

Page 13413

1 Mirko Zivak, son of Milan, surrendered eight grenades

2 and rocket launcher. And Jovo Draganic surrendered a

3 machine gun, M53. Dragisa Sinikovic, also a machine

4 gun, the M53. Nebojsa Stojanovic also machine gun, M53

5 model. Slavko Zelenovic, an automatic rifle. Zdravko

6 Zelenovic, an M48 rifle and a pistol, calibre 7.62.

7 Q. Do you know Slobodan Zelenovic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was he one of those who wanted to negotiate

10 and surrender weapons or was he among those who wanted

11 to offer resistance and not surrender weapons?

12 A. Slobodan Zelenovic lived in -- in May came to

13 Brdani and he had an M48 rifle. After the attack of

14 the Serbian citizens against Muslims in Brdani, he went

15 to Bradina. After the fall of Bradina, he attempted to

16 go back to Brdani, and he went back there, in fact.

17 The Serbs who were taken prisoner at Bradina

18 put together a list of what they -- each of them had in

19 terms of weapons. On that list there was also the name

20 of Slobodan Zelenovic. When we asked Slobodan where

21 his rifle was, he said that he left his rifle in

22 Bradina.

23 Myself, together with the military police of

24 the HVO, which came to the command post in Podorasac,

25 we went to Bradina, and we found the rifle in the house

Page 13414

1 of Vaso Kuljanin.

2 Slobodan was at home up until the day when

3 the military police took all the Serbs to the command

4 post in Celebici.

5 Q. When you say that the police took all the

6 Serbs from Celebici, did all the Serbs remain in

7 Celebici?

8 A. When we conduct the negotiations about the

9 surrender of weapons for Serbs, stated that they would

10 surrender weapons, and they did so. They surrendered

11 them to me directly. However, when Zvonko Zovko

12 ordered that all Serbs come to the command post in

13 Podorasac, by mistake these four men also went there,

14 the four that had surrendered weapons.

15 When I learned about this, I went to the

16 Celebici prison and submitted a request to the

17 commission which was at Celebici to release the four

18 men who had surrendered weapons. The commission

19 considered the request and within an hour released the

20 four individuals who were taken there by mistake.

21 Those persons were Dragan Zivak, son of Mirka. Mirko

22 Zivak, son of Vase. Slavko Zivak, son of Vase, and

23 Nikola Stojanovic. Two of these four individuals

24 continued to be in Brdani to date.

25 Q. You also mentioned here that you contacted

Page 13415

1 the commission there. Do you know any members there?

2 Do you know who were the members there whom you saw in

3 the commission?

4 A. The members of the commission were Goran

5 Lokas, Kostic Stenek.

6 Q. Those who you saw?

7 A. Yes. Yes. Mehmedalija Rizvic and Mirsad

8 Subasic.

9 MR. KARABDIC: I have no further questions of

10 this witness. Thank you.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination?

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I proceed, Your Honours?

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.

14 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic

15 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

16 A. Good afternoon.

17 Q. I am Edina Residovic, and I am Defence

18 Counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic. I am going to ask you

19 several questions. During the examination in chief you

20 said that your unit, which belonged to the Zuconik

21 (phonetic) detachment, took part in the combat

22 operations involving the liberation of Bradina?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Sir, Mr. Ramic, can you tell me who was your

25 commander during those operations?

Page 13416

1 A. During those operations my commander was

2 Zvonko Zovko.

3 Q. Mr. Ramic, if I were to tell you that Zvonko

4 Zovko during the entire operations of the liberation of

5 Bradina was the commander in charge of the entire

6 combat operations of the liberation of Bradina, would

7 you agree with me?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Mr. Ramic, after Bradina was liberated, is it

10 true that your unit, along with other members of the

11 Territorial Defence, undertook search of the entire

12 area of the Bradina village?

13 A. Yes. Part of my unit did conduct a search

14 and also secured the freedom of movement of the

15 civilian defence, which was in the village of Bradina.

16 Q. In light of that fact, Mr. Ramic, can you

17 testify before this Trial Chamber that part -- this

18 part of your unit was finding numerous pieces of weapon

19 in that area in the next month or so?

20 A. Yes. I can testify to that, that even a

21 month and a month and a half later pieces of weaponry

22 were being found in the village of Bradina.

23 Q. Mr. Ramic, is it also true that members of

24 the investigative commission, with which you

25 communicated on one occasion regarding your fellow

Page 13417

1 citizens and to which Mr. Kostic, Mr. Subasic belonged,

2 did ask you to go to a specific place and to collect

3 some weapons from it?

4 A. Yes. The commission did ask me personally to

5 go, along with them and the police. In other words, to

6 take them to the location where some weapons might be.

7 Q. Is it also true that you did find weapons

8 there?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. Is it also true, Mr. Ramic, that in certain

11 situations the person who owned this weapon would

12 occasionally also go to that location?

13 A. Yes. It happened on several occasions, that

14 if I or the military police was unable to find the

15 weapons, based on the description of the person who

16 owned it, this person would then come with the police

17 escort to show precisely where that weapon was.

18 Q. Mr. Ramic, you answered my previous question

19 by saying that part of your unit did provide secure --

20 the secure freedom of movement. Would you agree with

21 me if I said that after the liberation of Bradina the

22 citizens who remained there, in other words,

23 individuals who were not taken to Celebici, women and

24 others, had absolute freedom of movement, both in that

25 area, in other areas?

Page 13418

1 A. Yes, I can agree with you on that. They did

2 move about freely, both in Bradina and outside of

3 Bradina. We kept a log. Members of my unit kept a log

4 detailing the movement, movements, and we took down

5 exactly who went where and when, and when did they come

6 back.

7 Q. Mr. Ramic, is it true that these persons

8 could freely come to Brdani, where you were, based on

9 the logbook which you kept in Konjic, and could come to

10 see the members of their families who were detained

11 either in Celebici or at Musala?

12 A. Yes, they could move about freely either go

13 to Brdani, to Konjic, to Celebici, to see their family

14 members. I would take, would drive these persons on

15 many occasions from Bradina to Brdani because it was on

16 my way.

17 Q. Mr. Ramic, is it true that you know that the

18 civilian protection of these civilians was also

19 organised, and that the civilian protection also cared

20 about security of these people?

21 A. Yes. I know that there was civilian

22 protection staff, and this staff did take care of the

23 population.

24 Q. Mr. Ramic, since the M17 highway had been

25 opened and refugees from other parts of our country

Page 13419

1 moved through that route, was it true that both you and

2 other members of the TO, when asked by the citizens,

3 did provide security for these people, either their own

4 security or security of their property?

5 A. Yes. Any time we received such requests, we

6 would show up to provide protection, if it was needed.

7 Q. Mr. Ramic, is it true that the citizens of

8 your village, Brdani, as well as the villages of

9 Bradina, had a possibility to go and visit their family

10 members at Celebici and bring them food and clothing?

11 A. Yes, that is correct. Every other day they

12 had a right to go to Celebici to take food and

13 clothing. I frequently talked to the persons who were

14 going there.

15 Q. Mr. Ramic, have you ever heard -- did you

16 ever hear of any mistreatment of people or something

17 similar as going on in Celebici?

18 A. No, never. A moment ago I mentioned that I

19 spoke to these persons frequently, that I would give

20 them rides to Konjic or back to Brdani, things like

21 that, but, in any event, I never heard that any one of

22 them had any problems.

23 Q. Mr. Ramic, is it true that certain Serbian

24 families, even though Brdani had a majority Muslim

25 population, stayed the entire war together with you and

Page 13420

1 lived with you?

2 A. Yes, 30 percent of the Serbian population

3 remained in Brdani and lived there, and they lived in

4 Brdani to date.

5 Q. Mr. Ramic, there was an incident in Brdani,

6 however, and it involved a Serbian family. Do you know

7 whether somebody was killed in Brdani?

8 A. Yes, unfortunately. I know that the Draganic

9 family with three members perished.

10 Q. Mr. Ramic, do you know whether an

11 investigation was conducted about this case and whether

12 persons who were suspected of this act were prosecuted,

13 and if you know, when was it? When did this take

14 place?

15 A. Yes, I do remember this. This was in late

16 January.

17 Q. What year, please?

18 A. '92.

19 Q. You mean '93?

20 A. '93. I apologise. Yes, it was in '93. It

21 was in '93. I had just come out of the hospital. I

22 was at home with my father, at my father's, and early

23 in the morning I was awakened by my neighbour, that is

24 the neighbour of the Draganic family. Since I was the

25 only person who had a telephone in the village, he told

Page 13421

1 me about this incident and he asked me to do something

2 about it.

3 Q. I assume that, you know, that the MUP

4 commission did come and conduct an investigation on

5 this matter?

6 A. Yes, that is what I was going to say, that

7 the police did come out and conduct an investigation.

8 Q. Mr. Ramic, this last question. What happened

9 to you and how long were you in the hospital, and why?

10 A. I had a traffic accident. I was in a

11 military vehicle. It was a serious accident. I broke

12 my hip, fractured my hip and four ribs, and I was on

13 crutches for the next two or threes months

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Ramic, thank you very much. I

15 have no further questions. Your Honours, this

16 concludes my questioning.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I

18 think we'll have to adjourn 'til 2.30 p.m., when we'll

19 continue with other cross-examination. The Trial

20 Chamber will now rise.

21 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.03 p.m.





Page 13422

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 (The witness entered court)

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the

4 witness is on his oath.

5 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

6 are still under oath.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly take your seat,

8 please.

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honours, I believe I am

11 next in line, the Defence of Mr. Mucic has no questions

12 for this witness.

13 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, if I may

14 question from here, I only have one witness.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are free.

16 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.

17 Cross-examined by Ms. McMurrey.

18 Q. Sir, Mr. Ramic, we had an opportunity to

19 speak briefly at the break earlier today, didn't we?

20 A. Yes, we did.

21 Q. And for the record, I am Cynthia McMurrey, I

22 am the counsel for Esad Landzo. We had talked about,

23 as Ms. Residovic had asked you, that the families of

24 the detainees, especially the detainees from Brdani,

25 they were able to come and bring food and clean clothes

Page 13423

1 to the detainees at Celebici, weren't they?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. In fact, from your personal knowledge, you

4 know that the wives of many of the detainees and you

5 know that about the ones from Brdani were able to visit

6 with their husbands in Celebici, weren't they?

7 A. Yes, that's correct, three times a week.

8 They were allowed to visit their family to bring food

9 and clothing.

10 Q. And just to put a time on this, the people

11 from Brdani were brought to Celebici sometime at the

12 first day of June or maybe the last day of May, and

13 from the first time that they arrived in Celebici, the

14 families were able to bring food and clothing and have

15 visitation; isn't that correct?

16 A. Yes, that's correct. I personally spoke to

17 people who visited the prison and that means that there

18 were people from Brdani there too. And I spoke to them

19 personally. And I said that sometimes I took them

20 along to Konjic, from Konjic to Brdani.

21 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much, Mr.

22 Ramic, and thank you, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mrs. McHenry, do you

24 have any questions?

25 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 13424

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.

2 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry:

3 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

4 A. Good afternoon.

5 Q. Sir, you stated that you were a commander of

6 an independent platoon that belonged to the TO; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Correct. At the beginning this was the

9 Territorial Defence, and later, detachment was

10 organised and I belonged to this detachment.

11 Q. And did you wear a uniform with TO insignia?

12 A. I did.

13 Q. Now, when were you commander of that, the

14 unit, from when to when, approximately?

15 A. In mid-April, up until the end of July, when

16 I was sent to become the assistant commander of the

17 detachment. At the time when commanders Zvonko Zovko

18 went over to HVO. At that time, a new commander was

19 determined and I became this new commander.

20 Q. And is it your testimony, sir, that from

21 mid-April until the end of July, Mr. Zovko Zvonko was a

22 member of the TO or a member of the HVO?

23 A. Zovko Zvonko was a member of the -- he was my

24 commander.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What period? What

Page 13425

1 period was he a commander?

2 THE WITNESS: From mid-April and I can't

3 remember correctly up until what point he was my

4 commander.


6 Q. Well, sir, you're aware, aren't you, that Mr.

7 Zovko was a member of the HVO from mid-April forward;

8 that's correct, isn't it?

9 A. I don't know, I can't remember. I know that

10 he was my commander. But that was probably a general

11 command.

12 Q. So it's your testimony, sir, that you cannot

13 remember whether or not for all of May, June and July,

14 Mr. Zovko Zvonko was a member of the HVO or not?

15 A. I was -- I belonged to an independent,

16 platoon I was at Brdani, and I was blocked off, and

17 that's why I belonged to an independent platoon. And I

18 know that I received orders from Zvonko Zovko and

19 whether that was a joint command or whether it belonged

20 to HVO or TO, I don't know.

21 Q. So if I understand you correctly, you don't

22 know whether or not your superior, Mr. Zovko Zvonko,

23 was a member of the HVO or not, did I understand you

24 correctly?

25 A. I don't know whether he was a member of HVO.

Page 13426

1 Q. Now when you say you were a member of an

2 independent platoon, that doesn't mean that you weren't

3 a member of the TO, correct?

4 A. It is correct that I belong -- that I was a

5 member of the TO.

6 Q. And so, is it, you would -- is it possible

7 that as a member of the TO, your superior was a member

8 of the HVO, was that kind of reporting normal at this

9 time in Konjic?

10 A. I don't know whether Zovko Zvonko belonged to

11 the TO and if he did whether it was a joint command or

12 whether he belonged to the HVO. I really don't know

13 that and I cannot remember that. It was a long time

14 ago.

15 Q. Can you remember that he wore a red checker

16 board as his insignia?

17 A. I can't remember. I think he did.

18 Q. And you would agree with me that insignia

19 normally signifies someone who is a member of the HVO?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Sir, is it your testimony that you do not

22 know what insignia members of the HVO normally wore?

23 A. I know what insignia they wore, but I cannot

24 remember what Zvonko Zovko had.

25 Q. In the beginning when you were head of your

Page 13427

1 platoon -- your unit, I'm sorry, starting from

2 mid-April, did anyone appoint you to that position or

3 was it just part of your own creation?

4 A. I was appointed by the staff of the

5 Territorial Defence and by the recommendation of the

6 villagers of Brdani.

7 Q. And did you receive your appointment in

8 writing?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. And did Mr. Zovko Zvonko sign your

11 appointment?

12 A. I can't remember who signed it, but I did

13 have it in writing. I think that it was signed by some

14 Boric, but I can't remember exactly.

15 Q. Now, sir, would you agree with me that in the

16 very beginning parts of the war, April, May, June, for

17 instance, there was some confusion, including about the

18 TO and the HVO and lines of authority?

19 A. Could you explain to me?

20 Q. Well, sir, you don't seem to know certain

21 things, such as whether or not your superior was a

22 member of the HVO or TO. And I am asking whether or

23 not there was some confusion at the time about the

24 various entities and lines of authority.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: I object. The witness said

Page 13428

1 he doesn't know whether it was HVO or the joint

2 command, but he didn't say that there was some

3 misunderstandings or confusions.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not so sure who is

5 in on this witness.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: I beg your pardon?

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not too sure who

8 is --

9 JUDGE JAN: It's Mr. Karabdic's witness.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: As far as I know other

11 colleagues also made objections if the witness said

12 something before when I had my witnesses. I did not

13 notice that this was unusual.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is unusual.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Then I apologise. I

16 apologise again.

17 JUDGE JAN: Actually was what he said was

18 that he did not remember, not that there was any

19 confusion. That's what he said. He doesn't remember,

20 whether he belonged to HVO or TO or to joint command,

21 Mr. Zovko. That's what he said.


23 Q. Sir, was there any confusion in the beginning

24 stages of the war about such things as what entities

25 and lines of authority?

Page 13429

1 A. I do not understand the question.

2 Q. Was it possible that as a member of the TO

3 your superior, Mr. Zovko Zvonko, could have been a

4 member of the HVO?

5 A. I said earlier that I was separated, I was

6 separated and I belonged to TO and I know that my

7 commander was Zvonko Zovko. It was a very long time

8 ago. I can't remember every detail. But -- and I

9 also cannot remember whether he was a member of HVO,

10 TO, but I do know that he was my commander and that I

11 received all my orders from him. And I belonged to the

12 TO.

13 Q. Were you aware that during this period of

14 time, both the TO and the HVO were active in Konjic?

15 A. Yes, they were active.

16 Q. And what happened when the TO and the HVO did

17 not agree?

18 A. I remember a joint command and then later HVO

19 and TO separated and the army of BH was created and

20 HVO.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you understand his

22 position now?

23 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour.

24 Q. Now, sir, you stated that Mr. Zovko Zvonko

25 was in charge of the operation in Brdani, do you mean

Page 13430

1 that he was in charge of all the troops who

2 participated in the operation of Brdani?

3 A. Zvonko Zovko was the most responsible person

4 for that area and for the operation around Brdani.

5 Q. Well, when you say he was the most

6 responsible, do you mean, do you know whether or not he

7 was in charge of all the troops who participated in the

8 Brdani operation?

9 A. Yes, he was in charge and I personally -- and

10 I remember when he called us before the operation, he

11 called us, or the commanders, where he gave us

12 instructions and orders and so forth.

13 Q. So if I understand you correctly, during that

14 operation, he was in charge of all the TO troops, all

15 the MUP troops and all the HVO troops that participated

16 in that operation; is that correct?

17 A. I don't know about the police, but as far as

18 HVO and TO, yes, I do know that.

19 Q. Now, you stated that the Serbs did not take

20 part in the mobilisation at the beginning of the war;

21 do you remember that?

22 A. The Serbs did not take part in the

23 mobilisation of TO.

24 Q. And how did that mobilisation take place,

25 were there letters written, was it just up to who

Page 13431

1 volunteered, how exactly did the mobilisation take

2 place?

3 A. The mobilisation started from around the 15th

4 of April, 1992, and both Muslims and Serbs were

5 supposed to be mobilised, but the Serbs did not

6 mobilise, actually the entire population was supposed

7 to be mobilised, but the Serbs did not want to take

8 part in the mobilisation effort.

9 Q. My question, sir, is, how did the

10 mobilisation take place? How were people informed

11 where they should report to such and such a place to be

12 mobilised? Or, was it just up to the person's own

13 initiative?

14 A. No, it was not up to their own initiative,

15 but through the staff of the Territorial Defence.

16 Q. Well, sir, do you have any information

17 whatsoever about whether -- how people were informed,

18 that they should be mobilised or should report

19 somewhere for purposes of mobilisation?

20 A. For example, I was one of the representatives

21 of the Village of Brdani. And in this body, there were

22 also people of Serbian ethnic background. So that from

23 the headquarters of the Territorial Defence, we

24 received some instructions, but right after the very

25 beginning, there was a conflict. It started from the

Page 13432

1 demand to set up joint guards. It had to do with the

2 negotiations, but the Serbs refused negotiations and

3 the joint guards. And after that they refused the

4 surrender of weapons and the mobilisation.

5 Q. Well, you stated that as part of the

6 negotiations, the Serbs were told that they should

7 either become members of the TO or if they didn't want

8 to become members, they should give up their weapons.

9 Do you remember that?

10 A. Yes, I do. I remember all those negotiations

11 and meetings. And the demand was to join the

12 mobilisation. And those who did not want to do so,

13 were responsible to surrender their weapons, for which

14 there was no authorisation to carry them. However --

15 Q. Please continue, sir.

16 A. However, the Serbs refused both and they said

17 that -- so they refused mobilisation, and they said

18 that if they have to surrender their weapons, we will

19 have war, which happened eventually.

20 Q. If I understood you correctly, if a Serb then

21 did not have any weapons, that person was not required

22 to become a member of the TO; is that correct?

23 A. They could if they wanted to, but they didn't

24 have to. It was important. The most important thing

25 were the weapons for which there was no authorisation.

Page 13433

1 Q. Now, you mentioned joint guards, a second

2 ago, can you explain to me what you mean by "joint

3 guards"?

4 A. The Muslims saw that Serbs have a lot of

5 weapons. And the Serbs had the story that they were

6 scared of some attacks. And then we suggested that if

7 they were scared, and we saw that they had the weapons,

8 we suggested that we should together keep guard to --

9 during the night, to protect both houses of Serbs and

10 Croats. However, they refused that.

11 Q. If I understood you correctly during your

12 direct, after the negotiations, there were some Serbs

13 who either joined the TO or gave up their weapons and

14 that there were other Serbs who did not agree and were

15 part of the Chetnik forces; is that correct?

16 A. Yes. A lot of Serbs who surrendered their

17 weapons -- actually four Serbs -- there were only four

18 Serbs who surrendered their weapons voluntarily.

19 Everybody else took their weapons to shoot against the

20 inhabitants of the Village of Brdani. All those who

21 used their weapons had to surrender them after that.

22 Some of them were captured, but, however, those who did

23 not have any weapons were left in peace and they could

24 move freely just like anybody else.

25 Q. When you say those who did not have those

Page 13434

1 weapons, according to your testimony, you're just

2 referring the those four people; is that correct?

3 A. No, there were more people who did not have

4 any weapons at all and who still live in Brdani today

5 and who had spent the entire war there who wanted to

6 join the TO did so and we have an example where a Serb

7 joined the army and he remained in the army up until

8 the last day.

9 Q. Now, when you say that there were some other

10 Serbs who were part of the Chetnik forces, what do you

11 mean when you say "Chetnik forces"?

12 A. Those are the forces -- for me, they are

13 those forces who did not even want to negotiate, those

14 people who I mentioned earlier, who during the last

15 negotiations were already up in the hills, who only

16 wanted to see war happen.

17 Q. Did the Chetnik forces have any connection

18 with the JNA?

19 A. I think -- I don't know. I don't know.

20 Q. Now, you stated that there was an order from

21 Mr. Zvonko Zovko, that all persons who had weapons or

22 who participated in the fighting in Brdani should

23 report the a command post, were you the person who

24 received that order from Mr. Zovko?

25 A. One morning, Zvonko Zovko, through the

Page 13435

1 security officer, informed the Serbian population, who

2 had some weapons and who were involved in the operation

3 in Brdani, that they should come, that they should come

4 to the command post in Podorasac and this is what they

5 did.

6 Q. And my question is, who actually received

7 this order from Mr. Zovko?

8 A. The security officer received it and I was

9 also made aware of it.

10 Q. And who is the security officer?

11 A. Nehir Pavo (Phon).

12 Q. Now, you would agree with me that you were

13 one of the persons who implemented that order; is that

14 correct?

15 A. No, it isn't.

16 Q. Well, was it the case that this order for Mr.

17 Zovko was just communicated and there was some kind of

18 honour system where the Serbs just turned themselves

19 in?

20 A. No, I just knew about this order, but the

21 security officer had a higher rank than me and he was

22 the one who fulfilled this order.

23 Q. And when you say "fulfilled this order," do

24 you mean went around and arrested people?

25 A. Not arrested. After the fall of Brdani, they

Page 13436

1 lived freely, normally in Brdani up until this order.

2 And after this order they had to go to Podorasac and

3 they were free at that time. And in Podorasac, a truck

4 was waiting for them, which took them to the prison at

5 Celebici.

6 Q. So, according to your understanding, people

7 were free to go to Podorasac, or not to go, it was just

8 up to the individual person; is that correct?

9 JUDGE JAN: That is not what he said. They

10 were all there, not that it was up to them whether to

11 go or not. He hadn't said that.

12 MS. McHENRY: He said they were free.

13 JUDGE JAN: They were free to go there.


15 Q. Were they free not to go? Were they free not

16 to go to Podorasac?

17 A. No, no, they were ordered to go to

18 Podorasac. And those who were not at homes at that

19 point in time when he was making the rounds in the

20 village, they were taken in the evening or the next

21 morning. That means that they had to leave.

22 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that you told

23 people that they were required to go there. You went

24 around to various houses and various people and told

25 persons that they had to go to Podorasac, correct?

Page 13437

1 A. No, it is not. I did not do that.

2 Mr. Spago Nedzad was a security officer and went from

3 house to house.

4 Q. And you never informed any person about any

5 -- you never informed any Serb person about this order

6 at all? Is that your testimony?

7 A. The order was received by the officer and

8 following this order he went to Brdani and he informed

9 the villagers. And this all happened within an hour,

10 because Brdani is about a kilometre or two away from

11 Podorasac.

12 Q. Your testimony is you had nothing to do with

13 this; is that correct?

14 A. I had nothing to do with it because the Serbs

15 turned in their weapons. They did not want to join the

16 TO. And they didn't bother me without weapons, as

17 such. They were not a threat to the village, so they

18 were able to continue to move about freely, like the

19 others.

20 Q. About how many men from Brdani were taken to

21 Celebici?

22 A. Somewhere around 50.

23 Q. Now, you stated that Mr. Slobodan Zelenovic

24 had a weapon. How do you know that, sir?

25 A. The Serbs, who compiled the list of who owned

Page 13438

1 what, contained the name of Slobodan Zelenovic. And

2 after the fall of Bradina, he returned to Brdani, and

3 when we asked him to turn in the weapons, when we asked

4 him where it was, because his colleagues told us that

5 he had some, then he told us that the weapons, that the

6 weapons were in Bradina. And later they were found.

7 And also Slobodan Zelenovic's father said that he --

8 that he had given his weapons to his son, Sloboran

9 (Phon).

10 Q. And did the father say that to you?

11 A. Yes, he said it to me.

12 Q. And when was that?

13 A. Together with Zvonko Zovko, I was present

14 when the weapons were recovered. So that was after the

15 fall of Bradina, when part of the Serbs who had been

16 disarmed was taken. And those who were able to go back

17 home, who had not been arrested -- sorry.

18 Q. Sir, I am going to ask that you listen to my

19 question very carefully and that you only answer my

20 question, please. When was it that Mr. Zelenovic's

21 father --

22 A. After the fall of Bradina, when the weapons

23 were being surrendered.

24 Q. And is this before or after Mr. Zelenovic was

25 taken to Celebici?

Page 13439

1 A. This happened before Mr. Zelenovic went to

2 Celebici.

3 Q. And did you see this list yourself that was

4 compiled?

5 A. Yes. The Serbs compiled a list and we had

6 this list. I had it and Zvonko Zovko and I don't know

7 who else.

8 Q. And where is this list now?

9 A. Later on I took the weapons to the command

10 post in Podorasac, and a list went along with it, and I

11 believe that it ended up there. And it was -- the

12 turning in of the weapons was taken down in the report.

13 Q. Okay. Do you have a copy of that report?

14 A. I don't have it here.

15 Q. Now, there was a time that Mr. Rajko Draganic

16 surrendered a weapon to you, wasn't there?

17 A. Rajko Draganic. I cannot remember.

18 Q. Let me ask you this. Do you remember taking

19 Mr. Draganic's car away from him?

20 A. Mr. Draganic's car was taken by the TO for

21 its own use, and it was done together with the police.

22 Q. And you were involved in taking

23 Mr. Draganic's car, weren't you?

24 A. No. It was the police. Mr. Draganic had a

25 car which was a Yugo make and he had given it to a

Page 13440

1 friend, so the car was not in his possession. And I

2 remember that there was a TO order that this car be

3 taken for the use of the TO. I remember that he had

4 several cars and that there were -- they were taken for

5 the use of the TO.

6 Q. And you were commander of the TO unit in

7 Brdani, weren't you?

8 A. Yes, but Rajko Draganic lived closer to

9 Podorasac than to Brdani. He was just born in Brdani

10 and his father lives up there, but he built a house

11 much closer to Podorasac than to Brdani.

12 Q. Sir, let me move forward. You indicated, if

13 I understood you correctly, that you went to Celebici

14 to see about getting four people who had been wrongly

15 imprisoned released. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And when was this, approximately?

18 A. That day, when I received information that

19 the people who had surrendered the weapons upon request

20 were also taken to Celebici. When I learned that, I

21 went to Celebici and I submitted request in writing to

22 the commission.

23 Q. Sir, let me ask you to just listen to my

24 question. If you don't know the answer to my question,

25 you can just say, "I don't know." My question was:

Page 13441

1 When was it, approximately, that you went to Celebici

2 to get these four persons released?

3 A. I believe that it was on that or the

4 following day. So I can't tell you whether it was on

5 that day or the following one.

6 Q. Would it have been in the end of May or

7 beginning of June, sir?

8 A. I believe it was in early June. I believe it

9 was in early June, but the day when all the Serbs were

10 taken from Brdani, that is when those four were also

11 taken. I believe that it was on that day that I went

12 to Celebici.

13 Q. Approximately how many times did you go to

14 Celebici in all?

15 A. Three times.

16 Q. Okay. And you indicated that you saw

17 Mr. Lokas in Celebici; is that correct?

18 A. I saw him, but whether it was the first or

19 the second time, I don't remember that. But I did see

20 him.

21 Q. Okay. Who else did you see -- besides the

22 commission members, did you know anyone else who worked

23 in Celebici?

24 A. I saw the guards. I saw security on that

25 occasion when I came there. I saw the military police,

Page 13442

1 the police, the guards. I was at the gate while all

2 this was going on regarding this request.

3 Q. Did you know any guards who worked in

4 Celebici at any time?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What are the names of those guards?

7 A. I knew the members of the then MUP. I knew

8 Dzajic, I knew Hazim Delalic. In fact, I saw him at

9 that time. It was a long time ago, and it's a detail

10 to recall all the persons whom I saw there.

11 Q. The guard that you know named Mr. Dzajic,

12 what is his first name and his nickname, if you have

13 one?

14 A. I don't know his first name, and I only know

15 him as Dzajic. I have -- I did not spend much time in

16 Konjic, in fact, and I did not know these people very

17 well. I knew them by sight.

18 Q. And what was Mr. Hazim Delic doing when you

19 saw him in the camp?

20 A. I saw Hazim Delic, he was a HVO policeman. I

21 remember him being on crutches at that time.

22 Q. And, sir, if you can't remember what your own

23 superior was, how is it that you remember that

24 Mr. Delic was a HVO police officer?

25 A. Even later Mr. Delic, along with another few

Page 13443

1 police officers, came to Brdani and Bradina to the

2 checkpoint, with or without persons who were in

3 detention, looking for weapons. Part of my platoon was

4 in Brdani, part was in Bradina, so that I was

5 constantly shuttling back and forth. And those days we

6 were involved in search of weapons, so I saw him.

7 Q. And did Mr. Delic wear HVO insignia?

8 A. Delic. I am not sure whether he wore any

9 insignia, but at that time there was no TO police, so

10 he could only have been a HVO police officer. There

11 was the MUP police force and the HVO police force.

12 Q. And did you talk to Mr. Delic about what his

13 role was in the camp, or the fact that he was a

14 military police officer?

15 A. No, I never talked to him.

16 Q. How is it you know that Mr. Delic was a

17 military police officer at that time?

18 A. I know because he had a white belt on just

19 like his colleagues did, and I know that he took part

20 in this search for weapons. I know that he would come

21 to search for them with or without persons who were in

22 detention.

23 Q. And you remember that every time you saw him

24 he had a white belt; is that correct?

25 A. It was when I saw the camp to Celebici for

Page 13444

1 the first time, and on later occasions -- I am not sure

2 that he had it on every time, but I remember the first

3 time he did, and maybe later on too. The police had

4 their own uniforms and the belts, the white belts.

5 Q. Was Mr. Delic manning the gate when you saw

6 him?

7 A. No, he was up there somewhere near the

8 administration building, and I remember well that he

9 was on crutches, so I was a bit -- so I was wondering a

10 little bit why he was on crutches. I remember that

11 detail.

12 Q. Was he just walking around or was he standing

13 guard outside the building, or just what was it that he

14 was doing when you saw him?

15 A. No, I don't know what he was doing. I was

16 standing at the gate and he was standing inside. What

17 he was doing, that I don't know.

18 Q. He was standing inside, meaning you saw him

19 through a window, sir?

20 A. No, no, no. I saw him from the gate. He was

21 at the administration building.

22 Q. Was he standing still or was he walking

23 around?

24 A. He was walking on crutches.

25 Q. Now, did you ever see Mr. Mucic at Celebici?

Page 13445

1 A. Never. I was only there three times and I

2 never saw him.

3 Q. The other two times you were in Celebici,

4 what were you doing?

5 A. The second time it was the oath giving, and

6 there was another subsequent time I was on duty as

7 assistant commander for logistics. And inside the

8 compound was a weapons specialist, that is a person who

9 repaired weapons. We had several rifles that had been

10 broken, so I was using him to repair them.

11 Q. And was the person repairing weapons, was

12 that a prisoner or was it a soldier, TO soldier, or

13 some other kind of soldier?

14 A. It was a soldier who was a member of the TO.

15 Q. Now, in Celebici or Musala you went several

16 times and saw some detainees, didn't you?

17 A. When I came for the weapons, I saw a number

18 of detainees inside the area where they were kept.

19 That is, I saw a part of them. The door was wide open,

20 it was high summer.

21 Q. At any point in Celebici or Musala did you

22 see Sreten Zelenovic?

23 A. No, never in Celebici, and I never went to

24 Musala.

25 Q. Did you ever indicate to any detainees that

Page 13446

1 you could help get them released if they would pay

2 money?

3 A. I personally did not need to go to the

4 prison. I had no contact with the guards, I had no

5 contact with the commission, who was the only authority

6 that could release the authorities.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Did you hear the

8 question? Counsel asked whether you could assist them

9 for a fee.

10 THE WITNESS: No, never.


12 Q. Now, sir, you stated that family members were

13 allowed to go visit Celebici and visit the prisoners.

14 Is that from the very -- is it the case that that is

15 from the time that -- the very first time that Celebici

16 was opened?

17 A. Yes, they could visit their family members

18 from the very beginning to take them -- to bring them

19 food and clothing.

20 Q. And your testimony is they could visit the

21 prisoners every other day; is that correct?

22 JUDGE JAN: Three times a week he said.


24 Q. I'm sorry, three times a week.

25 A. Three times a week. That is correct, yes.

Page 13447

1 Q. And were you ever at Celebici when anyone was

2 allowed to see one of the prisoners?

3 A. No. I was there three times altogether. The

4 first time, as I already said, I came to -- for those

5 four. That was the day when they had been detained, or

6 the next day. The second time it was for the oath

7 taking, and the third time when I brought those

8 weapons. But I gave a ride a number of times to the

9 people who went there. These were my neighbours, male

10 and female. I would take them to Konjic or, if I went

11 beyond Konjic, to Celebici also.

12 MS. McHENRY: No further questions. Thank

13 you.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

15 Any re-examination? Mr. Karabdic, any re-examination

16 of this witness?

17 MR. KARABDIC: My colleague, Tom Moran and I,

18 have made an agreement that he would examine the next

19 witness, so I need to call him. But as far as this

20 witness is concerned, no, I do not have any further

21 questions of him.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Moran is here now.

23 JUDGE JAN: He is just in time.

24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I was watching on

25 television, so I knew I would be right on time.

Page 13448

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have no questions.

2 Thank you very much, sir. You are discharged now. May

3 we have the next witness. You can leave now.

4 (The witness withdrew)

5 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, while they are

6 bringing him in, I just thought I would tell you a few

7 housekeeping things that we -- some scheduling things.

8 We have delivered to the registry a package of

9 documents which we are planning on introducing. We've

10 asked the registry to pre-mark them. So if we run out

11 of witnesses, the reason is so that the registry, at

12 its convenience, can mark these documents rather than

13 all of us sitting here while 183 documents are marked.

14 I believe you can see them directly in front

15 of you, Judge Odio-Benito. I believe you are looking

16 at them. Those will come in tomorrow through Amira

17 Klaric. She is number four on our list. Also I have

18 another witness that is waiting after this one.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Your next witness, Emir

20 Dzajic, is it?

21 MR. MORAN: The next witness we have is

22 Mr. Djacic, and then Ms. Klaric is number four on the

23 list. But because of the pre-marking, we thought that

24 it would be more convenient for all concerned if we

25 waited until the registry had everything marked and

Page 13449

1 then just bring her in. She is a custodian of record.

2 Since she can explain how the records are kept and what

3 they are. And that's all of the knowledge she has

4 about this case.


6 MR. MORAN: I thought it would be much more

7 convenient for the Tribunal.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Swear the witness,

9 please.

10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

12 truth.

13 WITNESS: Emir Dzajic

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may sit down, please

15 Examined by Mr. Moran

16 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

17 A. Good afternoon.

18 Q. Would you please introduce yourself to the

19 Trial Chamber.

20 A. Emir Dzajic.

21 Q. And, Mr. Dzajic, where are you from?

22 A. From Konjic.

23 Q. And do you still reside in Konjic?

24 A. Konjic municipality in Celebici.

25 Q. And are you employed, sir?

Page 13450

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And what do you do for a living?

3 A. I am a driver with the Federation Army.

4 Q. Okay. And what is your rank in the

5 Federation Army, sir?

6 A. Sergeant.

7 Q. Sir, in May and June, July and August of

8 1992, how were you employed?

9 A. I was a driver with the MUP in Konjic.

10 Q. And, sir, in May of 1992, in fact on May the

11 20th of 1992, did your unit take part in any military

12 activity around the Village of Donje Selo?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were there any other military formations

15 taking part in these military operations with you, sir?

16 A. The HVO military police.

17 Q. Sir, at this time did the TO have any

18 military police or were all of the military policemen

19 part of the HVO?

20 A. Only the HVO part.

21 Q. Sir, when you and your comrades first arrived

22 in Donje Selo -- first, how did you get there? Did you

23 march in or did you take vehicles or how did you get

24 there?

25 A. By vehicles. Vehicles.

Page 13451

1 Q. And was one of those vehicles equipped with a

2 loud speaker?

3 A. Yes, two of them.

4 Q. And was that loud speaker used to summon

5 someone, asking them to come out?

6 A. Yes, it was.

7 Q. And who was that? Do you know, if you

8 recall?

9 A. Osman Novalic from the MUP of Konjic.

10 Q. And he was using the loud speaker to ask

11 someone to come out and surrender; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. And who was he looking for?

14 A. Lazar Cecez. Since they worked together.

15 Q. When you say they worked together, were they

16 both in the MUP, or was he a traffic policeman, or do

17 you know?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Sir, which is it? Was he a member of MUP or

20 was he a traffic policeman?

21 A. He was about 10 to 15 days before that day.

22 Q. Which one, sir? Was he a traffic policeman

23 or was he in MUP?

24 A. He was a traffic policeman.

25 Q. Fine. Thank you very much. Do you know why

Page 13452

1 Mr. Osman was causing Lazar Cecez to come out?

2 A. To surrender the weapons.

3 Q. Do you know if there was information that

4 Mr. Cecez had weapons?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Sir, did Lazar Cecez surrender as he was

7 asked or what happened after he was asked to

8 surrender?

9 A. Everything would have been fine if he had

10 surrendered.

11 Q. I take it from your answer that he did not

12 surrender, sir?

13 A. No, he did not.

14 Q. At any time during that day, did your unit

15 receive any fire from the Serbs?

16 A. Yes, from the upper side of the railroad.

17 Q. And, sir, how much was it? Was it just a

18 shot or two or was it a large volume of fire?

19 A. It was a stronger attack, which was prepared

20 before that.

21 Q. Okay. Sir, who fired the first shots, if you

22 know? Was it the MUP and the police and the HVO or was

23 it the people living in the village?

24 A. Probably the aggressor.

25 Q. Sir, there will be some disagreement over who

Page 13453

1 is the aggressor. When you say the "aggressor," do you

2 mean the --

3 A. The Serbs.

4 Q. The people living in the village?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know whether they had any prepared

7 defensive positions?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you see those positions, sir, after the,

10 after the fighting was over with?

11 A. You could see it before and after the

12 shooting. And you could not pass through the main

13 road, M-17.

14 Q. Sir, these positions that were blocking the

15 main road, M-17, based on your experience and training

16 as a sergeant in the Army of the Federation, how long

17 would it take to prepare positions like that? Do you

18 have any idea?

19 A. Of whose positions?

20 Q. Positions that the Serbs had, the prepared

21 positions on the top of the railroad, was that

22 something that could have been done in the morning, or

23 would it have taken several days to prepare these

24 positions, if you know?

25 A. They had enough time.

Page 13454

1 Q. Okay. About how long did this shooting last,

2 sir?

3 A. Two to three hours.

4 Q. And what caused the fighting to die out? Did

5 the one side leave the battle field or did night fall

6 or did everybody run out of ammunition or what?

7 A. We received an order to withdraw.

8 Q. And, sir, did you go back the next day?

9 A. We returned the same night.

10 Q. And when you returned that night, was there

11 another battle or what happened then?

12 A. No, there was no new battle. We did a count

13 and we were missing two of our comrades.

14 Q. Did you find them the next day, sir?

15 A. Yes, behind the Serb positions.

16 Q. And what condition were they in?

17 A. In a very ugly condition.

18 Q. Were they alive or dead?

19 A. They were dead.

20 Q. Sir, did you search the area after you found

21 your comrades' bodies?

22 A. Yes, we did.

23 Q. Did you find any weapons?

24 A. Yes, we did. We found some medications, some

25 weapons and in two to three stables we found a lot of

Page 13455

1 weapons, Russian weapons, a machine gun, M-53,

2 binoculars, knives, but I would rather say sabres, not

3 knives and metal and steel bats.

4 Q. And, sir, did you take any prisoners on

5 either day?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How about many prisoners did you take if you

8 recall?

9 A. I only remember Snjezana Zivak.

10 Q. And do you know what happened to those

11 prisoners?

12 A. Yes, I do. Yes, I do.

13 Q. And what happened to them, sir?

14 A. Those who were in the woods and caught there

15 ended in Celebici.

16 Q. Do you know whether they were abused or

17 beaten by the people that captured them?

18 A. I don't -- I don't know. I did not see that.

19 Q. Sir, on that day, were you wounded?

20 A. Yes, I was. My leg was wounded.

21 Q. Oh, by the way, approximately how prisoners,

22 if you know, were captured in the Village of Donje Selo

23 when you were there, if you know?

24 A. I don't know the exact number.

25 Q. Do you know approximately, roughly? I mean,

Page 13456

1 was it a few or a lot? Or, you know, five or a hundred

2 or a thousand? Just roughly.

3 A. A few.

4 Q. Okay, sir. Sir, after you were wounded, how

5 long were you in the hospital?

6 A. Four to five days.

7 Q. And after you got out of the hospital, how

8 were you assigned?

9 A. I went to Celebici.

10 Q. And at Celebici, what were your duties, sir?

11 A. I was a driver.

12 Q. And by the way, sir, when you were assigned

13 to Celebici, who was your commander?

14 A. Rale Musinovic.

15 Q. Sir, this man sitting behind me with the

16 sunglasses on, that's Pavo Mucic, did you see Pavo at

17 Celebici at all?

18 A. I beg your pardon?

19 Q. The man sitting behind me with the sunglasses

20 on is Pavo Mucic, do you know Pavo?

21 A. Not very well.

22 Q. Did you see him very many times while you

23 were at Celebici?

24 A. Once, once.

25 Q. Okay, sir, while you were at Celebici, did

Page 13457

1 you have an occasion to meet a woman named Milojka

2 Antic and her brother, a man named Cedo Antic?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. And how did you meet them? How did that

5 occur?

6 A. They were brought to us, to our unit. They

7 were interrogated by the expert commission to say

8 whether they have any weapons or not.

9 Q. And were you present during the

10 interrogation, sir?

11 A. I was -- I only brought them to the

12 interrogation room.

13 Q. Okay. By the way, when these people were

14 brought to the interrogation room, were their hands

15 tied or were they beaten or threatened or anything like

16 that?

17 A. Never was anybody beaten or tied.

18 Q. Sir, did you hear any of the interrogation of

19 either Ms. Antic or her brother?

20 A. I was only called to go with them to the

21 Village of Idbar to take the weapons.

22 Q. Okay, that's what I was going to get into

23 next. That's exactly what I wanted to talk about, did

24 you take either Milojka Antic or her brother, Cedo to

25 the village to look for weapons?

Page 13458

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was it one of them or both of them?

3 A. It was both of them.

4 Q. And did anyone besides you go with them?

5 A. A military policeman of the HVO, Hazim

6 Delic.

7 Q. And when you got to the village, did you find

8 any weapons?

9 A. We did find a semi-automatic rifle, M-48, at

10 Milojka's under a cherry tree in the garden.

11 Q. And who pointed that out to you?

12 A. The brother, for his rifle, on the chicken

13 coop and Ms. Antic under the cherry tree, she did.

14 Q. Okay, so there were two rifles that you

15 found, one --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And did you make a report for your superiors

18 about the time --

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. And at the time you made that report, were

21 you an experienced report writer, or was this the first

22 report you'd ever done?

23 A. My first report.

24 Q. Looking back on it, were there some things

25 you'd put in it and some things you might leave out and

Page 13459

1 some things you might do differently?

2 A. I don't know what you mean by that.

3 Q. Is there some things you left out of the

4 report or some things you wished you put in now or some

5 things that you'd put back in the report back then that

6 you'd wished you left out?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. Your Honours, with the help of the usher, I

9 have a copy of that document.

10 A. The differences...

11 Q. Yes, sir, the differences? Okay. Hold on a

12 sec.

13 A. The differences were that in the first report

14 we did not put in it, his sister, because we thought

15 that there was no need.

16 Q. When you say "his sister," are you referring

17 to Milojka Antic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Sir, a document was just placed in front of

20 you, it's Document D/...

21 THE REGISTRAR: It's Defence document

22 D-26/3.

23 Q. Is that a copy of the report that you made on

24 the 18th day of June in 1993?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 13460

1 Q. And is that your signature down at the bottom

2 or a copy of your signature because this is a copy?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. And do you recognise the signature above

5 yours?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. And whose signature is that?

8 A. The signature of Hazim Delic.

9 Q. By the way did you see Hazim physically sign

10 the original of this document? If you did, you did, if

11 you didn't, you didn't?

12 A. Together.

13 Q. Okay. You did it together?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Sir, while you were at Celebici, did you have

16 occasion to deal with a women named Grozdana Cecez?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And do you know if -- what her relation is

19 to Lazar Cecez?

20 A. No translation.

21 Q. Do you know what her relationship was to

22 Lazar Cecez? Do you know if they were husband and

23 wife? I am not getting a translation, Your Honour?

24 A. Yes, I do, they were.

25 Q. Okay. Did you engage in any interrogation of

Page 13461

1 Mrs. Cecez at the direction of Rale Musinovic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what were you trying to find out?

4 A. We tried to find out things about her husband

5 and other people that we did not find in the lower

6 village with regard to the weapons.

7 Q. And did you get any useful information from

8 Ms. Cecez?

9 A. She did not want to say anything. She said

10 that she didn't know anything.

11 Q. In your presentation, was she beaten or

12 coerced or threatened in any way to give information?

13 A. No, nobody did it while I was there.

14 Q. Sir, did -- were you ever present at any time

15 when Ms. Cecez was sexually assaulted by anyone?

16 A. Never, never.

17 Q. Did you have much contact with Ms. Cecez or

18 Ms. Antic during your time as a driver in the camp?

19 A. I would bring her food, cigarettes and

20 occasionally and to Grozdana Cecez even flowers.

21 Q. Did you bring them coffee?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you do that on more than one occasion?

24 A. Yes, on more than one occasion.

25 Q. And at any time did either of those two women

Page 13462

1 ever complain to you that they had been sexually

2 assaulted?

3 A. To me?

4 Q. Yes, sir, to you, did they ever tell you that

5 someone had sexually assaulted them?

6 A. While I was there, no.

7 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with Mr. Delic's --

8 well, let me back off just a second. When you came to

9 the camp and were first assigned there, that was in

10 what, late May or early June of 1992?

11 A. I beg your pardon?

12 Q. Yes, sir, when you were first assigned to

13 Celebici after you first got out of the hospital, about

14 when was that, late May or early June of 1992?

15 A. In early June.

16 Q. And what was your physical condition at the

17 time?

18 A. I was wounded. I couldn't move.

19 Q. Okay. Were you on crutches or --

20 A. No, I wasn't, I was helping myself with my

21 healthy foot.

22 Q. Okay. Do you know whether Mr. Delic at that

23 time was on crutches?

24 A. Yes, he had two crutches.

25 Q. And do you know what Mr. Delic's duties were

Page 13463

1 at that time?

2 A. He had none.

3 Q. Well, what did he do with his days? Did he

4 just sit around and drink coffee -- or, I guess in his

5 case, tea. Or did he perform any minor duties around

6 the camp?

7 A. He was doing more sitting than walking

8 around.

9 Q. Okay. And he was a member of the HVO

10 military police, you said that, didn't you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know if he was an officer?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Was he just an ordinary policeman?

15 A. He was an ordinary policeman.

16 Q. And did he have the authority to issue any

17 orders to you?

18 A. Never.

19 Q. Sir, while you were at the camp, were family

20 members permitted to visit their relatives who were

21 incarcerated there?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And when did that begin, if you recall?

24 A. I don't know the exact date, but I know it

25 was done on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.

Page 13464

1 Q. Was it in middle of June, late June or early

2 June, or if you don't recall, you don't recall?

3 A. I don't remember exactly.

4 Q. And were these family members allowed to

5 bring their relatives food or cigarettes or clothing or

6 other things?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And that food and clothing was given to them,

9 wasn't it, given to the prisoners?

10 A. Yes, it was.

11 Q. Do you know who was in charge of that?

12 A. Masic from Celebici.

13 Q. Okay. There came a time, didn't there, when

14 some members of the TO were assigned to the prison as

15 guards?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And do you remember about when that was?

18 A. I don't know exactly.

19 Q. Do you remember who was in command of those

20 members of the TO?

21 A. Sejo Mustafic.

22 Q. I would like to ask you a bit about the

23 conditions in the camp, both for the staff and for the

24 inmates. Let's first talk about food, okay. For the

25 last couple of days, you've been living in the Bel Air

Page 13465

1 Hotel down the street, and since I live there too, I

2 have seen the meals you've been eating. Were they

3 eating the same kind of meals we're eating down there?

4 A. They did eat, but not similar meals.

5 Q. How about you, were your meals -- what were

6 your meals like?

7 A. The same as theirs.

8 Q. And do you know where that food was cooked?

9 A. The city.

10 Q. And how did that food get to the prisoners,

11 if you know?

12 A. By car with a driver, Ustalic Zlatan.

13 Q. Ustalic, is that the name?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. Okay. And was the food tasty or was it

16 plain, what kind of food was it? Tell us a little bit

17 about the food.

18 A. Whatever it was, what could you do.

19 Q. Was there often bread with it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know, and if you don't know, that's

22 fine, whether the prisoners got the same amount of food

23 that you got?

24 A. Yes, the same.

25 Q. How about the -- let's talk a little bit

Page 13466

1 about the sleeping facilities. Was the camp crowded?

2 A. No.

3 Q. What did the prisoners use for toilet

4 facilities; do you know?

5 A. Yes, I do know.

6 Q. And what did they use, sir?

7 A. The inmates from No. 22 used the toilet in

8 the command facility. No. 6 and 9 had outside

9 toilets. And they had a place for them to use. And

10 the ladies who were at the gate had toilet facilities

11 inside.

12 Q. Sir, the facilities, the outside facilities

13 that you just described, were those what we would call

14 in the military a field toilet?

15 A. Yes, field and some toilets were made which

16 were better, but such were the conditions.

17 Q. But they're similar to the kind of field

18 facilities that the army of the federation would use

19 today if you go to the field to train?

20 A. Yes, we still use such facilities.

21 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have about ten or

22 fifteen minutes. Would this be a convenient point to

23 break? It's a subject chain.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, we will take a

25 break.

Page 13467

1 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 4.34 p.m.

3 (The witness entered court)

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the

5 witness he is still on his oath.

6 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

7 are still under oath.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may sit down.

9 Yes.

10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

11 MR. MORAN: May it please the court.


13 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, Your

14 Honour.

15 Q. Sir, I want to jump back to something we

16 talked about a little bit before, and mainly because

17 there is three things I forgot to do. Your report that

18 is marked as D26/3, who ordered you to make that

19 report, if you recall?

20 A. I believe it was the commanding officer.

21 Q. And who was that? Who was the commanding

22 officer that you are referring to?

23 A. (No translation).

24 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, we are not getting

25 the interpretation. There is no interpretation into

Page 13468

1 Bosnian.

2 MR. MORAN: Can we try again? Are the

3 Bosnian interpreters hearing this?

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's coming through

5 now.


7 Q. Sir, when you say the commander ordered you

8 to write it, what was that man's name?

9 A. Rale Musinovic.

10 Q. And do you remember who actually wrote that

11 document? Was it you or was it Mr. Delic or do you not

12 recall?

13 A. Delic wrote it and I signed it. In fact, we

14 both signed it.

15 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I move to admit

16 Exhibit D26/3. That's the report.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Prosecution?

18 MS. McHENRY: No objection, Your Honour.

19 MR. MORAN: Thank you.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's admitted.


22 Q. Sir, one other question along the line of

23 commanders. Who was the commander of the HVO military

24 police while you were assigned to the Celebici prison?

25 A. Dzevad Alibasic.

Page 13469

1 Q. He was commander of the HVO. What was Jerko

2 Kostic's job there?

3 A. Jerko Kostic was the chief commander, but

4 this man, Alibasic, was in charge down at Celebici.

5 Q. When you say Jerko Kostic was the chief

6 commander, what do you mean by that, sir?

7 A. That he could issue orders.

8 Q. To everybody in the camp or just to some

9 people in the camp?

10 A. To the HVO military police personnel.

11 Q. Okay. Let me go back to what we were talking

12 about right before the break. Sir, let's talk a little

13 bit about the water supply in Celebici, both for the

14 guards and the prisoners. Was there sufficient water,

15 drinking water?

16 A. There was enough for it for a very large

17 city.

18 Q. Sir, was this water clean water or was it

19 some kind of industrial, polluted water that may have

20 had, oh, pieces of --

21 A. Clean water.

22 Q. And was the water you were drinking the same

23 water that the guards -- that the prisoners had?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. While you were there, sir, did you see any

Page 13470

1 prisoners who were shot?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Tell the judges about that.

4 A. A larger group of Serbs was brought, which

5 had been captured with weapons during combat

6 operations, and among them was a young man of about

7 20. And when I guess they started to question him, I

8 guess he didn't want to admit anything and he started

9 to run. Several warnings were issued and he wouldn't

10 heed it and, in short, he was killed.

11 Q. Do you know who shot him, sir?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know his name?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you remember about when this occurred?

16 A. Between May -- June. June.

17 Q. Do you remember, sir, whether it was in early

18 June or late June?

19 A. I believe early June.

20 Q. Okay. Do you remember, if you know, was he

21 lined up along the wall near the gate when he tried to

22 run or was he someplace else in the camp?

23 A. At the back exit gate.

24 Q. When you say the back exit gate, sir, you can

25 stand up and look in front of you. There's a model of

Page 13471

1 the camp, which is, I believe, Prosecution Exhibit 2.

2 If that -- when you say the back gate, do you mean the

3 gate by the administration building or the gate where

4 the train came in? You can walk up -- why don't you

5 just walk over and look. The shooting was somewhere

6 around there?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, may the record

9 reflect that he pointed to a hill that's in the middle

10 of the camp somewhere between building 22 and building

11 6? Can the record reflect that?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Your statement will be

14 reflected.

15 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, Your

16 Honours. You can sit down now again.

17 Q. I may have asked you, and if I did, we'll

18 just -- someone will point it out and I'll stop there.

19 The women that were held in the camp, there was

20 Grozdana Cecez and Milojka Antic. Did you ever have

21 coffee with them?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You brought them -- as I recall, you

24 testified you brought them cigarettes and food and

25 flowers for Ms. Cecez; is that right?

Page 13472

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you bring them coffee on more than one

3 occasion?

4 A. More. On several occasions.

5 Q. Sir, they were confined in the gate house at

6 the front of the camp by the gate; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And that would be Building A on that model,

9 Prosecution Exhibit 2? You might have to go up and

10 take a look at it again. That building? Okay.

11 Building A?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, could the witness be

14 given Prosecution Exhibit 1, which is the photo album.

15 And if the technical people could turn on the ELMO so

16 we can see. If the usher would open it to page -- it's

17 marked 2 in the upper right-hand corner of the -- and

18 put it on the ELMO. No, that's not the right page.

19 It's the page after that. It's marked page 2 in the

20 upper right-hand corner of the -- no. Upper left-hand

21 corner. Sorry. Someday I will learn my left from my

22 right. No, the -- this one. Are we missing a page?

23 Maybe I can help. I have a copy in Bosnian. This is a

24 copy in Bosnian. There is several copies. Okay.

25 Q. Now, looking at that chart, could you take --

Page 13473

1 there should be a pointer there either on the side

2 where the picture -- where the actual original is.

3 There we go. Could you point on the original paper,

4 the overhead projector which is off at your right,

5 which room the women were confined in. Just put --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Would you point to that, put the pointer on

8 the -- no, you have to do it on -- off to your right.

9 There we go. Okay. And that's the room that says --

10 it says in Bosnian there, but on the copy I've got it

11 says in English the word "weapons." Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, that room has a window in it; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Have you been in that room?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You have probably been in that room a lot of

19 times, both when you were assigned there during the war

20 and since then; is that true?

21 A. When food or coffee or something similar

22 needed to be brought there.

23 Q. Now, if you look out that window, can you see

24 the entrance to tunnel number 9?

25 A. You see the Rudar factory and the Village of

Page 13474

1 Lata.

2 Q. In fact, that looks out towards the gate,

3 doesn't it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, there's a room next to that room that's

6 labelled "guard room" in -- that's correct. Now --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In June of 1992, who was in that room?

9 A. Guards. Security.

10 Q. And there is a door between the room that

11 says "weapons," and it shows on there on the chart a

12 door between the room that says "weapons" and the room

13 that says "guard room."

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was that door open or closed when the women

16 were being held in there?

17 A. Closed, and they are still closed today.

18 Q. And was it locked?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And next to that door there is a little room

21 called "main hall." Will you point to it so -- okay.

22 That shows a door between the weapons room and the main

23 hall. Was that door opened, closed, blocked? Do you

24 recall, sir?

25 A. It was locked.

Page 13475

1 Q. And was there something that was in front of

2 it so that you could not use that door, like a wardrobe

3 or lockers or something like that?

4 A. Like wardrobe, and there was also a bar

5 there, which was put there even before the ladies were

6 brought in there.

7 Q. And it's still there to this good day, isn't

8 it, like that?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Now -- by the way, were the women allowed to

11 use the toilet facilities in that guard room?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And they could use them whenever they wanted?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Point to the toilet facilities on that chart,

16 if you would, please, sir. It should be the room that

17 says "toilet." Thank you. Now, when they were

18 confined in that room that's marked "weapons," is there

19 any reasonable way that those women could have seen the

20 entrance to tunnel number 9 or know what was going on

21 around the entrance to tunnel number 9?

22 A. Never. If they were on top of the building,

23 maybe they could.

24 Q. But not from inside the room?

25 A. Right.

Page 13476

1 Q. Sir, when did you leave the Celebici prison?

2 When were you transferred out of there?

3 A. End of June.

4 Q. Sir, in the time that you were assigned to

5 the Celebici camp, was Hazim Delic ever the deputy

6 commander?

7 A. Never during the time when we were there.

8 Q. Sir, with the exception of that one person

9 that you saw shot, did you see any prisoners beaten,

10 shot, stomped, burned, abused?

11 A. Nothing, with the exception of a certain

12 Susic who was killed by the Serbs.

13 Q. Tell the judges about that.

14 A. The Village of Lape was nearby and I

15 frequently went to my girlfriend's, which was -- who

16 was close by. And in the morning, when I arrived

17 there, I was told that a certain Serb arrived there and

18 that the Serbs themselves were -- killed him, Zara. I

19 didn't know them very well. And this had happened in

20 tunnel number 9, where they were placed.

21 Q. Okay. By the way, this is the first time

22 you've ever testified, isn't it?

23 A. First time.

24 Q. And are you a little nervous?

25 A. A little bit.

Page 13477

1 JUDGE JAN: He looks cheerful.

2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think he's a

3 little scared.

4 Q. Sir, when you were transferred out of the

5 Celebici camp to other duties, that was just a routine

6 transfer; is that correct?

7 A. How do you mean?

8 Q. You were just transferred to other duties,

9 for just -- like people get transferred in everybody's

10 army every day?

11 A. Correct. Correct.

12 Q. And at that time, by the way, had your leg

13 wound pretty well healed?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what were your new duties?

16 A. It was the same. I was going to drive a

17 vehicle for the unit.

18 Q. And that's a MUP unit?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I thank you very

21 much and I pass the witness.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

23 Any cross-examination?

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, Defence for

25 Mr. Zejnil Delalic has no questions for this witness.

Page 13478

1 Thank you.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination by

3 Mucic's counsel?

4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour. I just

5 have a few questions. Thank you.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Kuzmanovic

7 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. I represent Mr. Mucic in this case. Was

10 Mr. Mucic ever commander of Celebici when you were

11 present at the camp?

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He's indicated --

13 A. Never.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- commander, as he

15 stated.


17 Q. While you were at the camp you said

18 Mr. Musinovic was the commander?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. And you said after Mr. Musinovic,

21 Mr. Alibasic was commander, correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. How do you Mr. Alibasic was the commander

24 after Mr. Musinovic?

25 A. Because we were supposed to leave the unit,

Page 13479

1 this Alibasic came and he took over.

2 Q. And that was something that you witnessed

3 yourself?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. You saying during the time you were in

6 Celebici you saw Mr. Mucic one time?

7 A. Only once.

8 Q. And what was the occasion of you seeing him

9 that one time?

10 A. I was washing the car about 50 metres away

11 from this structure that is displayed here on the

12 monitor near this water -- what's the name of it? The

13 hydrant. And I saw him as he passed over to my

14 commanding officer, and he was carrying something, I

15 believe it was cigarettes or something. And he

16 retraced his steps very quickly. That's all I saw.

17 Q. Was he wearing a uniform?

18 A. He was in civilian clothes.

19 Q. And how often would you be present on or in

20 the area of the camp during the time that you were

21 there?

22 A. During the day, yes, but at night rarely. I

23 would go to get some rest.

24 Q. And this is during the month of June of 1992?

25 A. Right.

Page 13480

1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: No further questions, Your

2 Honours.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

4 Any other questions, please?

5 MS. MCMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, I have a

6 couple of brief questions.

7 Cross-examined by Ms. McMurrey

8 Q. Good afternoon.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. My name is Cynthia McMurrey and I represent

11 Mr. Esad Landzo, and we had just an opportunity to

12 speak for just a few moments back in the witness room,

13 didn't we?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, you said that -- of course you left the

16 camp at the end of June; isn't that right?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. And in the middle of June a new unit of young

19 military police guards arrived in Celebici, didn't

20 they?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. And about how many young military police

23 soldiers arrived at that time?

24 A. About seven or eight, somewhere around there.

25 Q. Thank you. And one of those military

Page 13481

1 policemen that arrived in the middle of June was a

2 young soldier named Esad Landzo, wasn't it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you said you didn't know Mr. Landzo well,

5 but you had seen him around the camp; isn't that true?

6 A. During that brief period.

7 Q. And when you saw him, what was your

8 impression of Mr. Landzo at that time?

9 A. He was a lad, and any lad is like another

10 lad.

11 Q. When you say "a lad," did you mean he was

12 like a boy?

13 A. Correct

14 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much. I have

15 no further questions.

16 THE WITNESS: Your welcome.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination by

18 the Prosecution?

19 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed now.

21 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry

22 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that the

23 operation in Donje Selo occurred approximately May 20th

24 to May 21st?

25 A. Yes, I would.

Page 13482

1 Q. And if I understood you correctly, you were

2 in the hospital for four to five days after that, and

3 then you were sent immediately to Celebici, which would

4 put you there somewhere around the 24th, 25th or 26th.

5 Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Okay. And you stated you were a driver for

8 the MUP; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. How long had you worked for the police before

11 you were sent to Celebici?

12 A. I started on the 14th of February, 1992.

13 Q. And what kind of uniform did you wear when

14 you were in Celebici?

15 A. Half a civilian, half a military uniform.

16 Q. And is that because there was a shortage of

17 uniforms?

18 A. We did not have enough of them.

19 Q. You would agree with me, certainly, that you

20 were a member of the police rather than a civilian,

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And how were you identified as a police

24 officer? If someone looked at you, how would they know

25 that you are a police officer?

Page 13483

1 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, Your Honour, I think

2 that's a little mischaracterisation of the evidence,

3 and it may be an Americanism. When she says police

4 officer, that would imply that he was a commissioned

5 officer. In fact, he was not. He was --

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It might be helpful to

7 us when he answers.

8 THE WITNESS: But we did have cards, so that

9 we could search, so that we could conduct searches, we

10 did have those.


12 Q. So am I correct that just by looking at you,

13 someone would not know that you were a police officer,

14 but you could show them your card; is that your

15 testimony?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And is it also the case that in this time

18 there were many civilians going around in

19 military-looking uniforms?

20 A. Where?

21 Q. In Konjic.

22 A. I do not understand.

23 Q. I am asking whether or not there were

24 civilians in Konjic who would wear military-looking

25 outfits, such as camouflage, pants or tops, even though

Page 13484

1 they were civilians?

2 A. The civilians couldn't wear them.

3 Q. Now, were any TO soldiers part of the Donje

4 Selo operation that you've described?

5 A. Yes, only as security.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the witness,

7 please, the second microphone.


9 Q. I'm sorry, sir, let me just make sure I

10 understand. If I understood you correctly, the police

11 were participants in the actual military operation and

12 the TO soldiers merely provided security; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes, that is correct.

15 Q. And was this a normal division of

16 responsibilities, where the police conduct battles and

17 the soldiers provide security, or was this something

18 unusual?

19 A. It was normal for the beginning.

20 Q. And was there a time -- was there a

21 difference between how things worked in the beginning

22 and how things worked later on?

23 A. I do not understand the question.

24 Q. Well, maybe you can just explain to me, why

25 is it that the police were conducting battles and the

Page 13485

1 TO soldiers were merely providing security in the

2 beginning?

3 A. Because they had some weapons.

4 Q. Now, when you were first sent to Celebici,

5 who else worked in Celebici besides you in terms of,

6 were there other people from the MUP who worked in

7 Celebici?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And what function did the other MUP members

10 perform?

11 A. They were inspectors.

12 Q. And who were the inspectors? What were their

13 names that you remember?

14 A. Ilija Halilovic, Mirsad Subasic. Some person

15 called Hodza, I don't know his exact name. Some person

16 called Kuhar, I also don't know his name. I think

17 there was also Kostic and Lokas.

18 Q. And they were inspectors who worked in the

19 camp, correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. And were they part of the military

22 investigation commission that worked in the camp?

23 A. They examined the inmates about weapons.

24 Q. And were all these people from the Konjic

25 MUP?

Page 13486

1 A. Most of them were from the Konjic MUP and

2 from MUP and the HVO.

3 Q. Wasn't it the case that there was a member of

4 the TO who was a member of the military investigation

5 commission also?

6 A. Maybe, I don't recall.

7 Q. And besides the MUP members, what other

8 bodies were present in the camp?

9 A. Later there was a group of TO, which was

10 headed by Sejo Mustafic.

11 Q. And when, approximately, did this group of TO

12 persons come?

13 A. I don't remember exactly.

14 Q. Do you remember if it was at the beginning

15 part of your time there or at the end part or you just

16 don't remember?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 Q. And how did these persons dress when they

19 were in the camp?

20 A. Which people?

21 Q. The TO persons.

22 A. The same as we did.

23 Q. And that would mean some military clothing

24 and some not?

25 A. Yes, we didn't have enough.

Page 13487

1 Q. And what was the function of the TO persons

2 in the camp? What did they do within the camp?

3 A. They secured the buildings.

4 Q. And when you say "they secured the

5 buildings," can you just tell us what that means?

6 A. Security of the outer part of the buildings.

7 Q. And were there any HVO soldiers who worked in

8 the camp?

9 A. Yes, military police of the HVO.

10 Q. And were they there the entire time that you

11 worked in the camp?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Approximately when were they there and when

14 were they not there?

15 A. I don't remember exactly.

16 Q. Well, do you remember if they were there and

17 then they left or were they not there for some period

18 of time and then they arrived?

19 A. I was not interested in that.

20 Q. And did the HVO military police dress like

21 the rest of you or did they dress differently?

22 A. They dressed the same.

23 Q. Now, was there a time that some TO military

24 police officers came?

25 A. I told you just a while ago.

Page 13488

1 Q. So when you were telling me about the TO

2 persons who came under Sejo Mustafic?

3 A. Sejo Mustafic with a group of soldiers.

4 Q. Were these soldiers TO military police?

5 A. They were TO, whether they were a military

6 police or not, I don't know, but they were TO.

7 Q. Now, you indicated that Mr. Musinovic had a

8 role in the camp. Now was Mr. Musinovic in charge of

9 the prisoners and the guards?

10 A. He was just in charge of us from the MUP.

11 Q. And was Mr. -- did Mr. Musinovic have that

12 role up until the end of June when you left or did he

13 leave earlier than that?

14 A. We left together.

15 Q. So did Mr. Musinovic have any -- well, let me

16 ask, before the TO soldiers came, who acted as guards

17 in the prison?

18 A. Before us you mean? Before the MUP?

19 Q. Well, then let me go back, sir. Is it the

20 case that when you were at the camp, MUP members were

21 guards for the prisoners?

22 A. Yes, that happened too.

23 Q. Well, besides MUP members, when you first

24 went to the camp, who else acted as guards? Well, let

25 me put it this way, sir, is it the case that there were

Page 13489

1 persons who worked in the camp as guards and you don't

2 know what body they belonged to?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Well, let me go to the time when you first

5 were at the camp, before the TO soldiers came, did

6 anyone besides MUP members act as guards for the

7 prisoners or you don't know?

8 A. I do not know.

9 Q. Now, after the TO soldiers came in the middle

10 of June, is it the case that MUP members and the TO

11 soldiers both acted as guards for the prisoners?

12 A. It was seldom at that time that MUP people

13 were security.

14 Q. So they sometimes acted as guards for the

15 prisoners, but not most of the time; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And --

18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honours, I believe that

19 the witness didn't say "yes," I believe he said "who,"

20 referring to who the guards were.


22 Q. Let me just repeat my question, sir, in case

23 there's some issue. Is it the case that after the TO

24 soldiers came in mid-June, the MUP soldiers, MUP

25 persons, sometimes still acted as guards, but not most

Page 13490

1 of the time?

2 A. Seldom.

3 Q. Now, who was commander of the prison in terms

4 of who was in charge of what happened to the prisoners

5 when you were there?

6 A. Our commanding officer was Rale Musinovic.

7 Q. But if I understood you, he didn't always

8 have authority over what happened to the prisoners, or

9 did Mr. Musinovic, during the entire time that you were

10 there, have authority over what happened to the

11 prisoners?

12 A. I do not know what was happening to the

13 inmates.

14 Q. Well, maybe you can then -- please explain to

15 me the difference between the authority of Mr.

16 Musinovic, Mr. Alibasic and Mr. Mustafic?

17 A. Musinovic had the authority to give us orders

18 to conduct searches and he had nothing, he had no other

19 authority within the compound. And I do not know what

20 Alibasic, what kind of authority Alibasic had because

21 he was not my superior and the same goes for Sejo

22 Mustafic -- Musinovic.

23 Q. Now you said something about the authority of

24 Mr. Kostic, could you just, please, tell us again what

25 you understood the authority of Mr. Kostic to be?

Page 13491

1 A. He had authority over the HVO police.

2 Q. And who did Mr. Alibasic have authority

3 over? You may have said this before, but I am

4 confused, so, who did Mr. Alibasic have authority

5 over?

6 A. Alibasic belonged to the HVO and who he had

7 authority over, well, the number of people he had is

8 known. He was probably also superior to Hazim Delic.

9 Q. Well, do I understand that you don't know the

10 difference in authority between Mr. Kostic and Mr.

11 Alibasic; is that correct?

12 A. Would you please repeat the question?

13 Q. Well, I understood you to say that Mr. Kostic

14 had authority over the HVO and that Mr. Alibasic had

15 authority over HVO people and I am asking if you know

16 the difference in the authority?

17 A. Superior was Kostic and Kostic could give

18 orders to Alibasic to fulfil his duties.

19 Q. And how do you know that?

20 A. I just know that's the way it was supposed to

21 be.

22 Q. Well, you would agree with me that it was,

23 that Mr. Kostic was also an inspector and, according to

24 you, none of these other inspectors had authority over

25 the various entities who worked in the camp?

Page 13492

1 A. Could you please repeat the question?

2 Q. Well, you indicated that Mr. Kostic, along

3 with a list of five or six other people, worked as an

4 inspector in the camp. Now you're also saying that in

5 addition to working as an inspector, Mr. Kostic had a

6 much wider authority in addition to being an inspector;

7 is that correct?

8 A. No, that is not correct.

9 Q. Did all the inspectors have an equal amount

10 of authority?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Is it a fair statement, sir, that you don't

13 know what authority Mr. Kostic had?

14 A. I was not interested to find out.

15 Q. And does that mean that you agree with me

16 that you have, you don't know what authority Mr. Kostic

17 had?

18 A. I do not know.

19 Q. And you also don't know what authority Mr.

20 Alibasic -- Mr. Alibasic had; is that correct?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Now, do you know what authority Mr. Hazim

23 Delic had?

24 A. He had no authority.

25 Q. Well, how do you know that?

Page 13493

1 A. A wounded soldier is good for nothing.

2 Q. So because he was wounded, you assumed he had

3 no authority; is that correct?

4 A. He had no authority.

5 Q. And besides your assumption that he had no

6 authority because he was wounded, do you have any other

7 source of information for your statement that Mr. Delic

8 had no authority?

9 A. He had never had any authority.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You're limiting your

11 questions to the period he was there.

12 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, certainly.

13 Q. All my questions are referring, sir, to the

14 period that you were there.

15 My question, sir, is if you don't know, for

16 instance, what kind of authority Mr. Alibasic had, how

17 do you know what kind of authority Mr. Delic did or did

18 not have?

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has told you why he

20 thinks --

21 THE WITNESS: Alibasic came, arrived after we

22 had left Celebici, ma'am.


24 Q. Besides Mr. Delic, was there anyone else in

25 the camp on crutches when you were there?

Page 13494

1 A. Don't know.

2 Q. Well, did you, yourself, see anyone else in

3 the camp besides Mr. Delic who was using crutches?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Now, in addition, you indicated that at some

6 point in the middle of June, Mr. Esad Landzo came to

7 the camp. Did Mr. Landzo have a nickname?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Do you have a nickname, sir?

10 A. Yes, Role.

11 Q. Do you know whether there any other members

12 of Mr. Landzo's, Esad Landzo's family working in the

13 camp?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Now, you indicated that after the operation

16 in Donje Selo, certain items were found, including

17 steel bats; do you mean a steel baseball bat?

18 A. No, just steel bats were made in a military

19 facility called Igman.

20 Q. And what happened to those steel bats?

21 A. They were given to the head of the public

22 security office in Konjic.

23 Q. When you and Mr. Musinovic left Celebici at

24 the end of June, were there other MUP members who left

25 also?

Page 13495

1 A. All.

2 Q. And about how many people was it besides you

3 and Mr. Musinovic?

4 A. Fifteen to twenty.

5 Q. And, if you know, who came to take over the

6 place? Who came to replace these 15 or 20 people who

7 were leaving?

8 A. I don't know. I just know the commanding

9 officer.

10 Q. Who was the commanding officer?

11 A. There were never any officers there, military

12 officers.

13 Q. Well, who was the commanding person, even if

14 he wasn't a military officer?

15 A. Alibasic after we had left.

16 Q. And do you know whether or not additional TO

17 soldiers came after you left?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you know whether or not the TO soldiers

20 who had arrived in mid-June, did they remain in the

21 camp, if you know?

22 A. I don't know after we had left.

23 Q. Now, when you were there, would you be there

24 everyday when you worked there?

25 A. No.

Page 13496

1 Q. How many days would you be there a week?

2 A. According to the needs.

3 Q. Well, for approximately the month of June, if

4 you say it has 30 days, approximately how many days

5 were you present in the camp?

6 A. I was there maybe about 20 days.

7 Q. And you said you were sometimes there at

8 night, but seldom, about how many days in June, how

9 many nights were you present during the night in June,

10 approximately?

11 A. It was seldom because I had a girlfriend who

12 lived around there.

13 Q. Did you have any duties other than acting as

14 a driver?

15 A. I was just a driver.

16 Q. Besides the one occasion that you've told us

17 about where you went with Mr. Delic and Mr. Antic --

18 well, let me ask, on that occasion when you went with

19 Mr. Delic and Mr. Antic, did you go as a driver or did

20 you go in some other capacity, such as investigator?

21 A. We received information from our superiors

22 and we went there just to fulfil our duty. I was the

23 driver and also the assistant at the same time, the

24 assistant of Mr. Delic.

25 Q. Would Your Honours want me to continue? I

Page 13497

1 have not finished my cross-examination.

2 MR. MORAN: We have no problem with breaking,

3 but we have about five or ten minutes, something that

4 we need to discuss in a private discussion, Hopefully

5 today, having to do with the issuance of a subpoena.

6 JUDGE JAN: The subpoena?

7 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, the one whose

8 wife who wouldn't let him come. Your Honours, it

9 appears that the wives in former Yugoslavia are very

10 much like wives in America.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will have to break

12 and continue tomorrow morning.

13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, before the

14 break, I just wanted to add that in the transcript it's

15 referred to consistently, Mr. Musinovic is referred to

16 as Mr. "Mujezinovic" so I would like the record to

17 reflect that it should be Musinovic and not

18 Mujezinovic.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I

20 think the transcripts will take care to make the

21 correction.

22 The Trial Chamber will now rise and

23 reassemble tomorrow morning at 10.00 a.m.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

25 5.30 p.m., to be reconvened on the

Page 13498

1 30th day of June, 1998, at 10.00 a.m.