Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13653

1 Wednesday, July 1st, 1998

2 --- Upon commencing at 3.07 p.m.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good afternoon, ladies

4 and gentlemen. We'll continue this afternoon with Mr.

5 Moran.

6 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I believe it's Mr.

7 Karabdic who has the next witness. But while I am on

8 my feet, I want to express my personal thanks for

9 accommodating me for the meeting with President

10 McDonald. It solved some problems, I believe.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

12 (The witness entered court)

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the

14 appearances, please.

15 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, please, my name is

16 Niemann. I appear with my colleague, Ms. McHenry, and

17 Mr. Huber for the Prosecution, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Appearances for the

19 Defence please.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honour,

21 my name is Edina Residovic. I am Defence counsel for

22 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. Along with me, Mr. Zejnil Delalic

23 is defended by Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan professor from

24 Canada. Thank you.

25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Good afternoon, Your

Page 13654

1 Honours, Tomislav Kuzmanovic along with Niko Djuric on

2 behalf of defendant, Mr. Mucic.

3 MR. KARABDIC: Good afternoon, Your Honour,

4 my name is Salih Karabdic. I am Defence counsel for

5 Mr. Hazim Delic. With me, Mr. Hazim Delic is defended

6 by Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Texas.

7 MS. McMURREY: Good afternoon, Your Honours.

8 I am Cynthia McMurrey and I defend Esad Landzo along

9 with co-counsel counsel, Ms. Nancy Boler.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you, very much.

11 You may now swear the witness please.

12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

13 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

14 truth.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may sit down now.

16 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

17 MR. KARABDIC: If I may proceed, Your

18 Honours?

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.


21 Examined by Mr. Karabdic:

22 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

23 A. Good afternoon.

24 Q. Did you rest from your trip?

25 A. Yes, I did, thank you.

Page 13655

1 Q. My name is Salih Karabdic, I am Defence

2 counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic and I will put a number of

3 questions to you. I would like to ask you to state

4 your name to the Tribunal.

5 A. My name is Adem Omerkic.

6 Q. In front of this same chamber of this

7 Tribunal you testified on the 31st of October, 1997.

8 Since that time, have there been any changes in your

9 personal data?

10 A. Generally speaking, no.

11 Q. Have there been any changes at all?

12 A. As far as the department where I work, I

13 don't think so. It is okay. It is okay.

14 Q. Do you today still work as the Chief of the

15 Archives Department of the Army of the Federation?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Are these the same duties that you talked

18 about and you described before this Trial Chamber on

19 the 31st of October, 1997?

20 A. Generally speaking, yes.

21 Q. Is there in your archive a certain procedure

22 for gathering and keeping the documents that are kept

23 in the Archive?

24 A. Yes. We still have a temporary rules of

25 procedure for gathering and working with the data which

Page 13656

1 we gathered during the aggression on our country. And

2 this was signed by General Delic. And I mentioned this

3 during the last testimony.

4 Q. Do the units of the army of B and H, that is

5 to say the Federation Army, oblige to send all their

6 records to this archive?

7 A. Yes. Yes, they do. But I would like to

8 state once again that there was a fire at the building

9 of the archives and in the meantime we were in an

10 interim facility, not in our main facility. And right

11 now we are in a very narrow facility where the working

12 conditions are not very good. But, in the future, we

13 hope to solve this. With regard to this, we have

14 gathered the documentation, but because of these

15 conditions, we had to interrupt our activities which

16 have to do with gathering of information.

17 Q. From what I understand, you have already

18 collected a lot of information, what happened to the

19 other records that you did not collect? What happened

20 to this and where is this?

21 A. The majority of the material which was --

22 which was -- which was -- which we should have gathered

23 during the aggression, but we did not, was kept in the

24 corps, in the army and some other parts of this

25 material because of the war or because of inadequate

Page 13657

1 behaviour of certain individuals was destroyed. But I

2 do know that certain documents we cannot gather, we

3 cannot collect, even though we are working on this and

4 we are working very hard.

5 Q. Mr. Omerkic, in this archive, is there also

6 an archive of the former fourth corps of the army of

7 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

8 A. Yes, whichever was handed over to us in the

9 normal procedure. Yes, we think that this material,

10 that these records are with us. But I don't think that

11 all the materials are with us. We do know that all the

12 records have not been handed over to us. I don't know

13 why they weren't.

14 Q. Sir, do you know the general of the army of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Rasim Delic?

16 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Did this commander issue an order to you to

18 establish if there are any documents in your archive

19 and did the commander do this at the request of the

20 Defence of Mr. Hazim Delic and Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

21 A. Yes. The established procedure of our work

22 is such that we fulfil every order of General Delic

23 that he gives to us on a regular basis and that means

24 that also includes all the demands of the Hague

25 Tribunal. All the demands by the Hague Tribunal were

Page 13658

1 also sent along with the requests of General Delic.

2 Q. What did you do when this request came to

3 you?

4 A. With regard to our conditions, since only

5 myself and three other women are working on these

6 issues now, we have done our utmost to find the

7 requested documents. And I think that we did manage to

8 collect the key documents. And we tried to do our

9 best, what we could after the request of General

10 Delic.

11 Q. Did you find all the documents that were

12 requested?

13 A. No, we did not find all the documents. Here

14 I have 55 copies of originals that are in our archive

15 and 10 copies of copies which do not exist in the

16 archive. So we have 10 copies of already made copies.

17 Q. Then I would like to ask some more questions

18 about your activities. When you establish whether a

19 document is authentic or not, what characteristics of

20 documents do you base your decisions about their

21 authenticity upon?

22 A. I already said this last time. The key

23 things are the seal, which can be distinguished by the

24 colour. It's a blue and a red seal with a fleur-de-lys

25 sign and a checker board. And then there are also

Page 13659

1 signatures and we recognise a lot of signatures

2 immediately. And then the way the document is set out,

3 then the number and the date and also visually we can

4 recognise some documents immediately without these key

5 characteristics for their recognition.

6 Q. Did you look for these characteristics when

7 you were determining the authenticity of these

8 documents that was requested from you by the Defence?

9 A. Yes. That is the way we always work with all

10 documents.

11 Q. Does the Federation Army rely upon the

12 documents that are kept in your archives since they are

13 the original documents?

14 A. Yes. Yes, if there's a demand for certain

15 documents, then these documents are taken as the

16 original ones. And if it happens that we do not have

17 an original, but we do have a copy, then we do try to

18 search and find the document. And then through these

19 people that come to see us, we try to get at the

20 document, at the original of the document. So for our

21 army these, these documents are absolutely truthful.

22 Q. With regard to the request of the Defence of

23 Mr. Delic and Delalic, can you tell us how many

24 documents you found?

25 A. The same thing as I said before.

Page 13660

1 Q. How many?

2 A. We found 55 originals and they are in the

3 archives and 10 of those and 10 other ones, which were

4 not originals, but they ask if people are still

5 mentioned in our records.

6 Q. Did you inform the Defence about your

7 findings?

8 A. Yes. Yes, I did inform the Defence. And I

9 sent the list.

10 Q. I have the original. And this is for the

11 Trial Chamber and these are the originals.

12 MS. McHENRY: May the Prosecution have a

13 copy, please. I know we got something yesterday, but

14 what we got wasn't fully translated.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Document D-102/3 to

16 109/3.


18 Q. Could you please tell us whether this letter,

19 whether this letter with which you informed the Defence

20 also contained a list of documents that you found?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you recognise the list that you made?

23 A. Yes, and there's my signature here at the

24 very end. Yes, that's that.

25 Q. I move to admit this as evidence for the

Page 13661

1 Defence.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any objections to the...

3 MS. McHENRY: No objection, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I really don't know.

5 What documents are these?

6 MR. KARABDIC: There's a list there. Now I

7 will give you the documents themselves. These are

8 documents which already were handed in together with

9 the findings of a military expert, expert witness. If

10 I could ask for the usher to come. If the usher could

11 come again, please.

12 MS. McHENRY: May we have a copy too,

13 please.

14 MR. KARABDIC: Yes, yes, you may.


16 --- (Kindly be advised microphone is not

17 activated)

18 THE INTERPRETER: There is no translation.

19 JUDGE JAN: Many of these documents are

20 already evidence in this case.

21 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am not positive

22 and I could be wrong on this, but as I recall, most of

23 them were admitted solely for the purpose of showing

24 the basis for an expert's decision. And now they're

25 being offered for the truth of the matter asserted

Page 13662

1 therein, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE JAN: For example, appointment opposite

3 Delalic as coordinator.

4 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, in determining our

5 position as to what we object to or what we would not,

6 we wonder if Defence counsel could assist us in how

7 these documents are relevant to Mr. Delic's case? We

8 can certainly see how some of them might be relevant to

9 Mr. Delalic's case, but just in case we're missing

10 something, maybe Mr. Karabdic could explain how they're

11 relevant to Mr. Delic's case.

12 MR. KARABDIC: The Defence of Mr. Delic and

13 Delalic together have engaged the expert witness and

14 asked for him and the expert witness, by the request of

15 both Defences, has given his testimony here. Delic

16 wants to have -- wants to see that all the facts that

17 were stated in the expert witness testimony to be

18 identified and confirmed because Delic's

19 responsibilities are also connected and depends on

20 this. Delic has been charged with all counts of the

21 indictment and he has been charged with nothing less

22 than the charges that Delalic has been charged with.

23 And, therefore, he has to show his innocence with

24 regard to the entire indictment and to refute all the

25 counts of the indictment and that is his right.

Page 13663

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, if I may help a

2 little here. Do I have your permission?

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If the Prosecution is

4 not satisfied with this submission, then it might help

5 the process. Are you satisfied with the explanation?

6 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

7 We are not going to object on that basis.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, they are not

9 following up the objection.

10 MR. KARABDIC: Thank you.

11 Q. Your Honour, all the documents have been

12 placed in succession according to the list we received

13 in this letter. And all the documents have been

14 submitted to you here. May I address the witness,

15 please? Sir --

16 MS. McHENRY: I just wonder if it might help

17 expedite things, if the Prosecution states to begin

18 with, that there's only one in terms of this witness

19 testifying, the copies or the original of these

20 documents do exist in his archives, we're not going to

21 object to that. And we don't think it's necessary to

22 go through each document one by one. There's only one

23 document which we would object to and that is the

24 document No. -- Document No. 2 in terms of the copies

25 he found. So, in other words, an after the first 55

Page 13664

1 documents, there are some documents of which he said

2 that were copies. Document No. 2 is a document created

3 in 1996 by an army officer at the request Ms.

4 Residovic. And Your Honours have already found on

5 several occasions that that document is not admissible.

6 And so with request to this witness' testimony, that

7 would be the only document we're objecting to.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That document from his

9 evidence are not documents which are original to his

10 archive evidence.

11 MS. McHENRY: Yes. And we are not going to

12 -- we are not objecting on the basis that they are

13 copies. If the witness says there are copies in his

14 archives, we agree that they can be admitted for the

15 purpose of establishing that there are copies in his

16 archives. Our objection is that this document is

17 entirely irrelevant and objectionable, since it's

18 something that was created just for the defence of

19 Mr. Delalic, at Ms. Residovic's request. It is not a

20 contemporaneous document. And on several occasions

21 previously Your Honours have already found that this

22 document may not be admitted.

23 JUDGE JAN: What page?

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise, Your Honour. In

25 connection with --

Page 13665

1 MR. KARABDIC: Please, Your Honour, may I

2 answer to the Prosecution? Mr. Omerkic stated that in

3 the archives of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina there is

4 only -- there are copies of this document, an original

5 copy, which they consider to be the true copy. The

6 question of content, that is another matter altogether,

7 but this document exists.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It was quite clear as to

9 the source of those documents. The first 55 authentic

10 to him, original to his archives. The subsequent 10

11 are those which he found copies from elsewhere. And

12 this is one of those which is being objected to as not

13 authentic, as having been created much later after the

14 event, on the request of counsel.

15 Now, I don't know your argument against the

16 objection, but he could not even authenticate that one,

17 because it is, in the first place, not his document,

18 and then, in the second place, it was not anything

19 authentic, as far as he is concerned.

20 MR. KARABDIC: He said that these were not

21 originals, but were copies. However, he insisted that

22 these copies are -- were found in the archives of the

23 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that they are used as

24 documents, as originals, which don't exist. But he

25 insists and stresses that these are copies.

Page 13666

1 Your Honour, can I understand this, that the

2 Prosecution has nothing against the -- doesn't object

3 authenticity, and that except the document number 2,

4 which you object to, that to the others you do not?

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is the position. I

6 think they said it already.


8 Q. Mr. Omerkic, please find that document number

9 2, the copy number 2, which has been mentioned by Madam

10 Holmes (Phon). Tell us, where has it been kept and

11 what do you know about it? Please, switch on the

12 ELMO. Could the usher switch on the ELMO.

13 A. Well, of all these documents that I have

14 observed, this is documents in 1992. This document we

15 are speaking to is from 1996, and they are not the

16 originals, as I said, with the seal. This is one out

17 of the 10 photocopies which I have mentioned, while the

18 rest are -- 55 are originals. And only this refers to

19 the intervention of somebody signed by General Delic

20 for approval for something for Mr. Delalic.

21 Q. So we have the signature, as you can see on

22 this copy. Is it the signature of Mr. Delic?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. And the seal, is it the seal which is

25 generally used?

Page 13667

1 A. But I emphasise it is a photocopy of a

2 photocopy.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We still haven't

4 understood the point. It is a photocopy of a

5 photocopy. It was not any document which is authentic

6 to him, and he cannot certify it as such. This is what

7 he is saying.


9 Q. You said that you recognised the signature of

10 Commander Delic.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is your witness who

12 you have brought to authenticate documents, and he said

13 things which --

14 MR. KARABDIC: We propose that also this

15 document be submitted as evidence, evidence

16 authenticity --

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You propose it, but it's

18 not acceptable.

19 MR. KARABDIC: Yes, Your Honour. All the

20 remaining -- Your Honour, I request that all the

21 remaining documents be submitted and accepted as

22 evidence.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I think we do,

24 since that was the only one objected to.

25 MR. KARABDIC: That is all, Your Honour. And

Page 13668

1 I thank you. Thank you, sir, for your testimony.

2 MS. McHENRY: I'm sorry, the Prosecution is

3 going to have just a few questions.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. Any questions?

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I have only two

6 questions for this witness.

7 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic

8 Q. Sir, in view of the facts that you've

9 confirmed the existence of certain photocopies in your

10 archives, can you tell us, are the photocopies of

11 certain documents in the archives of the

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina Army, do these photocopies exist

13 from the beginning, when the original documents were

14 drafted?

15 A. Well, what is significant for me is that all

16 documents we receive, which are handed into us, when

17 they -- we receive a list, a list with the registered

18 documents, when we check that, we see in the list what

19 are the originals, but under certain numbers you have

20 also photocopies, and we accept this as something which

21 is invaluable to us.

22 Later on, we will be trying to find the

23 original, but we accept the photocopy in order to be --

24 help us in finding the original. I cannot say where

25 the original is.

Page 13669

1 Q. However, as you have answered my colleague,

2 as long as you don't have the -- find the original, you

3 and the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina take this copy in

4 your archive and you rely on it, in view of all the

5 important characteristics it has, and you consider it

6 an authentic document?

7 A. In our Army, yes. Although, I have no

8 responsibility in connection with that.

9 Q. This was a satisfactory answer. Please give

10 me short answers, because you have explained to my

11 colleague the methods of your work, you mentioned that,

12 described that also the last time.

13 Sir, do you know that individual organs,

14 bodies, also army bodies, submit -- ask and issue

15 original documents to those who request it? You have,

16 for example, sent original documents to me and

17 Mr. Karabdic. And I ask you, is it a custom, is it

18 usual to send out original documents, while the bodies

19 retain a copy of the original document which has been

20 issued?

21 A. The rule is that this military procedure goes

22 from the -- the request is made through the -- via the

23 ministry, the command, and then Commander Delic, with

24 his signature, orders me and gives me a command, what

25 to do. We, even if we issue a photocopy, we have to --

Page 13670

1 it must be given back to us.

2 Q. I believe you have not understood me

3 properly. You have answered how you issue a document

4 from the archives. I am not asking you that. We are

5 going back to the document we have been recently

6 discussing. If I had asked Commander Delic to inform

7 me about a fact, do you know that the usual habitual,

8 that they will send me the original document while they

9 will retain a copy of the document?

10 A. We do not issue originals. We send out

11 copies.

12 Q. I am sorry, I don't understand you. I have

13 received originals. I won't discuss this. I have

14 received originals -- I have received the original of

15 the letter.

16 A. Yes, the original letter which I have signed,

17 but the documents in the archive, as a rule, are not

18 issued, but the letter I have sent you, it is a list --

19 contains a list of the documents of the photocopies and

20 photocopies of photocopies.

21 Q. Well, is it possible that General Delic,

22 answering my letter and my request, also, as you have

23 sent me a letter, is it possible that he sent me an

24 original document, an original document which you have

25 in your archive as a copy? Would that be possible?

Page 13671

1 A. Well, you are trying to mix me up, to confuse

2 me.

3 Q. No. Don't answer.

4 A. I don't give originals to anyone. The letter

5 I have sent to the Tribunal is an original letter with

6 my signature. I don't know what you wanted

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is not a relevant question.

8 This document was as a relevant document.

9 And the Court and the Tribunal, I thank you

10 very much for my endeavour in trying to help us. And I

11 have no more questions for the witness, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I

13 think he is unable to issue it because he hasn't in his

14 archives the original copies. What he has are

15 photocopies, so he cannot satisfy photocopies as

16 authentic. This is their rule. If he had the original

17 copies with him in the archives. These originals do

18 not exist in his archives. Thank you very much.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. He

20 just confirmed that fact you have presented.

21 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, the Defence of

22 Mr. Mucic has no questions of this witness.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

24 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, the Defence of

25 Esad Landzo has no questions of this witness either.

Page 13672

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions for the

2 Prosecution.

3 MS. McHENRY: Yes, very briefly, Your

4 Honour.

5 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry

6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Omerkic. How are you?

7 A. Hello. And how are you, madam?

8 Q. Fine, thank you. Sir, when you have

9 documents in your archives, can you tell from what

10 source the document came from; in other words, who gave

11 it to your archives, whether or not it's the fourth

12 corps or the supreme command or some other unit? Can

13 you tell that or not with your documents?

14 A. No, from the document you cannot see. But

15 you have the minutes on the submission of the documents

16 of their handing them in. And it does happen that from

17 the chiefs of staff, from the supreme command, or from

18 the corps, we receive their archives, they hand in the

19 material, archive material. On that occasion we said

20 the minute, we write it down, that the archives -- this

21 is a report where the right archives have been handed

22 in. So on the basis, if one read the acts, one could

23 -- the documents, one could see where they came from,

24 their source.

25 Q. So, in other words, you can't tell from

Page 13673

1 looking at a document who gave it to the archives, but

2 with enough time you could reconstruct who gave it to

3 the archives, by looking at other minutes and such

4 things? Did I understand you correctly?

5 A. Yes, the report on the handing them in. But

6 we could reconstruct it also differently in other ways.

7 Q. Now, with respect to the 102 documents that

8 you were asked to find and could not locate, either

9 originals or copies in your archives, do you have a

10 list of those documents with you?

11 A. I have a list of documents that I have

12 submitted here, 55 originals, they are photocopies, and

13 a list of 10 photocopies of photocopies

14 MS. McHENRY: Maybe if I could just ask if

15 Defence Counsel would --

16 A. I made that list.

17 MS. McHENRY: If Defence Counsel,

18 Mr. Karabdic, could provide me a list after this

19 witness's testimony of the documents that were not able

20 to be located, I think that would --

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You really need them?

22 MS. McHENRY: I think it may help us in the

23 future. It may be relevant. I don't want to interrupt

24 this witness's testimony now. But it might be

25 relevant, and it might also save time in the future,

Page 13674

1 rather than us asking him to look for documents that

2 he's already looked for and determined were -- could

3 not be found in the archives.

4 MR. KARABDIC: We have the request of the

5 authentication of documents which have been submitted

6 in addition to the expert witness of the military

7 area. The other documents -- we have in that report

8 the documents which could not be found, and the

9 listing.


11 Q. Sir, I just have one question about a

12 particular document that you found, and it's number --

13 it's again a document that you found a copy of, not the

14 original. And it's document number 8 in your letter.

15 And it's a report from 6th -- I'm sorry, 6th of

16 December, 1992.

17 A. Sixth of December. Yes.

18 Q. Now, could you just find your copy of that

19 for me.

20 A. I have my photocopy. I have photocopied it,

21 the documents for myself prior to coming to The Hague.

22 Q. And that document refers to certain

23 attachments which are integral parts of the report.

24 Can you tell me now, are you in a position to tell me

25 whether or not the copy in your archives has all the

Page 13675

1 attachments or not?

2 A. Mainly, yes. In general, yes.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. Although, one of the documents with many

5 attachments, I took just the first page and the last

6 page with the seal, but in our register we have the

7 report and as well as all the attachments.

8 Q. And would you agree, when you go back you can

9 look and see whether or not your archives has all the

10 attachments, in particular to this particular document

11 that I am referring to, this 6th of December report?

12 Could you do that for me, please, sir?

13 A. Yes, I believe that we have it.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 A. But you have to turn to our General, and it

16 will be my pleasure.

17 Q. Thank you, sir. And, in fact, it's correct

18 that very recently you were asked to find, locate some

19 other documents in your archives, but you did not have

20 sufficient time and have indicated you will do that

21 after the appropriate steps have been taken and you

22 have time to look for additional documents. Is that

23 correct?

24 A. I know. I said everything that I had

25 received the orders, I will do. And I am at your

Page 13676

1 disposal to the maximum, of course. But I have to

2 receive the order, which I then execute. I don't know

3 what you really mean by that. Do you want to say that

4 I didn't do what I promised I would do?

5 Q. Absolutely not, sir. I did not mean to

6 suggest that for one minute.

7 JUDGE JAN: You don't have to be angry. You

8 don't have to be angry.

9 A. I am not angry. The Prosecutor is a

10 distinguished lady.


12 Q. And, in fact, sir, I will represent to you

13 that with respect to any additional request we have, I

14 will try to work with Defence Counsel to see if we can

15 agree that the documents can be admitted without making

16 you come back again.

17 And thank you, sir, I have no further

18 questions. Thank you.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

20 Any re-examination?


22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for

23 your appearance. Okay. You are discharged now.

24 A. Thank you very much, Your Honours.

25 (The witness withdrew)

Page 13677

1 MR. MORAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours.

2 Our next witness will be Mr. Demic.

3 Your Honour, while he is being brought in,

4 I was going through some documents and there was

5 something I forgot to do back in February, and I would

6 like to do it now.

7 As the court will recall, when Mr. Gow was on

8 the stand, I showed him several documents from the

9 Security Council. And by just pure forgetfulness on my

10 part I forgot to introduce D16/3, which is a letter

11 from the Security Council president; 17/3, which is a

12 letter from the permanent representative of Canada to

13 the president of the Security Council; B18/3, which is

14 a letter of the -- another letter from the permanent

15 representative of Canada; and D19/3, which is a letter

16 from the deputy permanent representative of the United

17 States to the president, Security Council.

18 Just so the record would be complete, I move

19 to introduce those at this time.

20 (The witness entered court)

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let him take the oath.

22 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

24 truth.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Take your seat, please.

Page 13678

1 WITNESS: Bajram Demic

2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, those documents, are

3 they admitted?

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I have not even seen

5 them.

6 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, they are in the

7 record. We'll do it at another time that may be more

8 convenient to the court.


10 JUDGE JAN: Can't we take judicial notice of

11 those documents?

12 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think you can. I

13 don't think there is any reason to introduce them into

14 evidence.

15 JUDGE JAN: What's the position of the

16 Prosecutor, with regard to resolution of the Security

17 Council?

18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour --

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: My position has been

20 very clear, public documents, documents which establish

21 facts of those nature can be taken judicial notice of,

22 and you don't have to tender them.

23 MR. MORAN: I think the court is correct. I

24 just had introduced some others and tendered them and

25 they were admitted into evidence, and I was going

Page 13679

1 through the exhibit list and there was great big

2 boldface "not tendered," and I thought that I ought to

3 be consistent.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can send them onto

5 the Trial Chamber.

6 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, Judge,

7 that's all I need.

8 Examined by Mr. Moran

9 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Demic.

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 Q. My name is Tom Moran and, if you will give me

12 a second, I am hearing Bosnian. There we go.

13 JUDGE JAN: I thought you must have learnt

14 Bosnian by now.

15 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am here to tell

16 you that most of the Bosnians have learned more English

17 than I have Bosnian.

18 JUDGE JAN: Ms. McMurrey is very good at it.

19 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, she spent more time

20 in Konjic than I have.

21 Q. Mr. Demic would you please introduce yourself

22 to the Trial Chamber. Tell us how you are employed.

23 A. Bajram Demic. I was born on the 9th of

24 April, 1959 in Rozaje. I work at the radio television

25 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 13680

1 Q. Are you a married man, sir?

2 A. Yes, I am.

3 Q. And do you have any children?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. How many?

6 A. I'm a father of five -- four.

7 Q. That's three more than I have, and I hope

8 that you have fewer headaches than I do.

9 Sir, how long have you been employed by the

10 television -- radio television of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11 A. I reported on my duty in 1992 on the 9th of

12 May for the first time in the radio television of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 Q. Sir --

15 A. The radio of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16 Q. Sir, did you work for any other television

17 stations or newspapers prior to going to work for the

18 radio of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 A. Yes, I worked in Vecernji List, which is a

20 daily newspaper from Zagreb. I was a correspondent of

21 Monitor, which is an independent weekly from Titograd

22 from Montenegro, and I worked for other independent

23 newspapers. And I also worked for HTV nine months

24 before the war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Q. Sir, what is HTV?

Page 13681

1 A. It's a Croatian radio television. Now they

2 call it HRT.

3 Q. Sir, at some point during the summer of 1992,

4 were you -- did you see a report on television from

5 Pale concerning some allegations of mistreatment of

6 Serbs held in Bradina?

7 A. No, I heard about this report, I didn't see

8 it.

9 Q. And, basically, what was the report? What

10 did it say?

11 JUDGE JAN: That's hearsay.

12 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, well, it's

13 going to show the motive for why he did the events that

14 he's going to be the personal witness for. And if the

15 Court likes, I'll withdraw the question and just say

16 based on that, did you do something? I thought that

17 the Trial Chamber might --

18 JUDGE JAN: From what he heard, may have

19 heard from someone else. And though --

20 THE WITNESS: Could I say something now?

21 There seems to be a misunderstanding. When I said that

22 I heard about it, I heard it in the radio, I didn't see

23 it on television. That means I heard it in radio Pale.


25 Q. And, sir, basically, and just very short,

Page 13682

1 what was that report about? In no great detail, just

2 in general.

3 A. In this report, it was stated that the

4 detainees in Celebici are being kept hungry and that

5 they live in abnormal conditions and other things

6 similar to that.

7 Q. And based on that report, did you and a

8 colleague do anything?

9 A. Well, knowing from before, about the

10 propaganda, the mentioned station from Pale, we did not

11 feel any special need to deny this. However, as

12 journalists, we had this idea that we might, maybe,

13 take a look at this prison that was being mentioned to

14 make a report, a story.

15 Q. And, by the way, who was your colleague?

16 A. My colleague, her name was Jadranka

17 Milosevic.

18 Q. And did you and your colleague go to the camp

19 at Celebici?

20 A. First we talked about doing this, but we

21 didn't have any particular plan or time to go there.

22 And since there was not enough gas at the time, we had

23 a car. I don't know if this is important or not, which

24 was of the make of Wartburg, which is an East German

25 make. And on this summer day, we bought some gas in

Page 13683

1 Jablanica because it could be bought there. And on our

2 return, since we had a camera on our backseat, we

3 decided to try our luck and to see whether we can make

4 this story. And even if we don't manage to make one,

5 we would not have been too disappointed. Earlier we

6 had heard that it wasn't really a big problem to enter

7 this camp and that other international organisations

8 could enter this camp and that it was not a big deal.

9 Q. Did you call ahead to the camp or to anyone

10 else to give any advance notice of your visit or did

11 you just decide relatively on the spur of the moment,

12 "Let's go to the camp," and then drove directly to the

13 camp? Or, whatever, or if it was something different,

14 whatever it was.

15 A. I think we made our decision at around

16 Ostrozac, which is a town before Celebici. We went to

17 the gate of this prison. I left the car because the

18 gate was closed. And there I saw from that small house

19 which was there, a young man. And I tried to explain

20 to him what our intentions were and I think he was a

21 little bit unprepared for that. He said politely that

22 we should wait here, as if he was looking for somebody

23 that he could consult with.

24 Q. Yes, sir, when you say the small house, if

25 you look in front of you, there is a model. In fact,

Page 13684

1 you can get up and walk around and take a look at it.

2 And see if you can locate that small house. And on the

3 top of it, there should be a letter. And if you'd tell

4 us what letter it is. Like I say, you can get up and

5 walk around over there, if you want to, whatever makes

6 it easier for you to see.

7 A. It was this house.

8 Q. The one with the "A" on top of it?

9 A. Just a second, let me have a better look.

10 Yes, this facility here. It was the administrative

11 building.

12 Q. And, sir, the one with the little A, is that

13 the one where the guard was?

14 A. It was a kiosk.

15 Q. And when the guard left, what did he tell

16 you?

17 A. That we should wait for a moment. And then

18 at this other building, because I was waiting at that

19 gate, I saw in front of it a man who was washing a car

20 and the make was a Fiat. It's a very small car, I

21 don't know if you know about it. It's made by Fiat.

22 And this car was quite old, I remember that. And I

23 said it was a rock car. We were joking about this car

24 for a while. And these people talked to each other for

25 a while. Then they came up to me. And he again said

Page 13685

1 that I should wait for a while. This man was older

2 than this young guy that I saw.

3 Q. The older man, you say the young man brought

4 an older man with him; is that what happened?

5 A. Yes, that's what happened.

6 Q. And the older man said wait for a few more

7 minutes? Wait here?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know the name of that older man?

10 A. No. At that moment I did not know his name.

11 Q. Do you know him or do you see him in the

12 courtroom?

13 A. In the grey sweater.

14 Q. Your Honour, if the record can reflect, he's

15 identified my client.

16 What happened next, sir?

17 A. Soon after that, we entered. We parked our

18 car, not by the building, but on the right from the

19 gate. I took a camera and we went towards the

20 administrative building. I was waiting there for a

21 while and then we talked for a while. After that, a

22 man came out and he said his name was Pavo. And I had

23 never seen him before that day.

24 Q. And what did Pavo tell you, sir?

25 A. He asked me what we wanted. We repeated what

Page 13686

1 we had already said earlier. He said, you can take,

2 film everything. And he, I think he joked that he

3 didn't want us to make any film of him because he was

4 not very photogenic, the camera didn't like him. And

5 we laughed, so that the atmosphere was very relaxed.

6 Q. And did Pavo tell you what his job was at the

7 camp?

8 A. No, not at that point, but we could have

9 guessed what his job was. That he was one of the

10 people who was kind of in charge and he gave us

11 permission to film that area.

12 Q. And what did you and your colleague do next?

13 A. Well, he did not want to be present. He left

14 to that other building. He left us outside. Some

15 other younger people came, some soldiers. And we said

16 that we wanted, I personally, actually, asked for it,

17 to film Zara, who was a prisoner that I knew was

18 there.

19 Q. Zara who?

20 A. Because he was a guy who had a cafe in

21 Bradina, which still exists, this facility still

22 exists. And everybody knew --

23 Q. I'm sorry, what was Zara's full name? Do you

24 know his full name?

25 A. The cafe was called Zara, at Zara's, and

Page 13687

1 everybody called him by that name, he was the only

2 person by that name.

3 Q. Could be, if you don't know, you don't know?

4 A. Yes, yes, yes, I know him. He was a big

5 guy. And before the war I knew him and also his

6 brother. And just before the war, I gave his brother

7 -- I lent a book to his brother, which is called

8 "Knife" by Vuk Draskovic.

9 Q. You said you asked to see Zara, what happened

10 then?

11 A. One of the men said that he was somewhere

12 around. And that he shouted loudly and they called him

13 two or three times and then he showed up in some

14 T-shirt and he had jeans on.

15 Q. Sir, were there a lot of people wandering

16 around inside the camp?

17 A. Yes, there were. When I asked to see his

18 brother, whom I also knew, they also called him and he

19 came behind a facility where he was doing something,

20 cleaning something. There were some people also who

21 were sitting below a roof because it was quite hot on

22 that day and there was more than one person sitting

23 there.

24 Q. Sir, do you know if these people were inmates

25 or guards or do you have any way of telling? Were they

Page 13688

1 wearing military uniforms?

2 A. They were wearing civilian clothes. And

3 there were also others. But I knew for sure that those

4 who were cleaning the compound that they were inmates.

5 Q. And, sir, did you get a good look at these

6 people?

7 A. Yes, I looked at them for a while.

8 Q. Did they look like they had been starved or

9 beaten?

10 A. Absolutely not.

11 Q. Okay, sir, after you got -- after you found

12 your friend Zara, did you have a conversation with

13 him?

14 A. He's not my friend. He's an acquaintance and

15 I was friends with his brother. But he was interesting

16 to me because I knew, and many others knew, that he was

17 rich. And that he was in some kind, in some way a

18 logistics person and that he was procuring weapons for

19 the Serb population in Bradina. That was no secret.

20 And I wanted to see how such a person would be treated

21 who was called the duke, Vojvoda. And then I could

22 have guessed how others were treated if I could see how

23 the main guy was treated. That would have been some

24 kind of a measurement, how these people were treated in

25 prison.

Page 13689

1 Q. Sir, did you talk to him? Have a

2 conversation with him?

3 A. Yes, for a very short period. I asked him

4 what he was doing there and he told me -- and I am not

5 quite sure that he was colonel or lieutenant colonel, I

6 am not quite sure, who was a commanding officer of the

7 former JNA. He went to see off his family to safety by

8 a helicopter from a heliodrome which existed in Bradina

9 on a road in front of the former barracks. And he did

10 not come back. And then they were seized by panic

11 because the commander had not returned, the colonel or

12 the lieutenant colonel. And, actually, they were

13 supposed to attack on the 27th of May in the direction

14 of Tarcin and Pazaric to join with the Serbs from

15 Ilidea.

16 Q. Who was this lieutenant colonel?

17 A. He was a lieutenant colonel, an officer of

18 the former Yugoslav National Army.

19 Q. Mr. Mrkajic or was that somebody else?

20 A. No, no, no.

21 Q. Celebici?

22 A. No. This officer did not go back. He left

23 by a helicopter of the former JNA in order to bring his

24 family to safety. And then he never returned to

25 command this unit which was located in Bradina.

Page 13690

1 Q. Sir, let's focus on the camp and your time in

2 the camp if we could. Because, frankly, the four

3 defendants here are charged -- occurred in the camp.

4 A. You asked me about this.

5 Q. Okay, that's fine. When you were talking to

6 Mr. Mrkajic, was anyone with you? Was Pavo with you or

7 was Mr. Delic with you? Was there anyone there

8 monitoring the conversation?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And I take it that when you say you had a

11 conversation, you were closer than you and I are,

12 you're just two people standing there having a

13 conversation?

14 A. Yes, my colleague, Jadranka Milosevic, was

15 also there.

16 Q. So it was two journalists and Mr. Mrkajic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And did he complain to you about being beaten

19 or other prisoners being beaten?

20 A. Absolutely not.

21 Q. Did he complain to you about being starved?

22 A. No, absolutely not. He complained more

23 because this officer left.

24 Q. So he was more unhappy because someone that

25 he thought was a friend of his, deserted from Bradina

Page 13691

1 before the battle, rather than about conditions in the

2 camp?

3 A. Yes, he was sorry or he saw that as treason.

4 Q. Okay. Did you film your interview with

5 Zara?

6 A. Yes, yes, I did.

7 Q. Does that film still exist?

8 A. It does.

9 Q. Now, I didn't ask you to bring it, did you?

10 But you could bring it if the Prosecutor asked you or

11 someone asked you, you could provide that film?

12 A. Any time.

13 Q. Okay. Did Zara mention anything to you about

14 people being allowed to visit the camp and bring the

15 prisoners anything?

16 A. While we were talking, and I think this was

17 also being taped, he said that they had visitation

18 rights and that three times food was brought to them.

19 I remember that my colleague, after he had said this,

20 reacted, I would say, unprofessionally. And she said

21 that they have a better time than the soldiers of the

22 army in the -- on the frontlines. I think that he

23 might not have heard very well what she said and then

24 he asked a question about that. And she was obviously

25 upset about this, my colleague, Milosevic. And I

Page 13692

1 stopped the filming. I think that in a way I also

2 understood what she was coming from because she knew,

3 just as I did, that her brother in Sarajevo, in the

4 beseeched Sarajevo, and that he basically had nothing

5 to eat.

6 Q. Yes, sir, while you were there, did you have

7 occasion to talk to a man named Branko Cecez?

8 A. Yes, we didn't ask for this man by name. But

9 since there were some talks about starving the inmates,

10 we asked for somebody who was distributing or cooking

11 the food. And they said, actually they called this man

12 and he showed up in some shirt and he made a statement

13 and I filmed it and my colleague interviewed him, asked

14 him what it was like, asked him about some conditions.

15 He gave this statement and I think this statement has

16 also been preserved.

17 Q. And do you know whether he was a prisoner or

18 whether he was a guard or a staff member?

19 A. No, he was a prisoner.

20 Q. And what did he tell you about the food?

21 A. He said that it was mostly satisfactory. As

22 far as I remember, he said that what is remained and

23 not distributed is given to those people who have

24 larger appetites. It's the so-called second helping.

25 Q. And was there anyone around besides you and

Page 13693

1 your colleague while this part of the interview was

2 going on? Were there any guards or staff members

3 there?

4 A. No, they were standing on the side. And some

5 prisoners also came and guards. So they were all

6 mixed. We, at the same time, also filmed the

7 infirmary, the clinic, so to speak, which was there in

8 the facility across this red, dark red building.

9 That's facility C, building C.

10 Q. Okay, while you were -- tell us about the

11 filming at the infirmary.

12 A. They showed me where the infirmary was. It

13 was very hot. I'd opened the door. I wasn't sure, but

14 I think there was about 10 beds in there. And on these

15 beds, there were patients lying. In the middle of this

16 room, there were some -- there was a table with

17 wheels. And on this table were some medicines and some

18 infusion equipment, something for infusion. I greeted

19 to them and I said that I would be filming them. They

20 greeted me back and I started filming them. I am not a

21 professional reporter and I was filming with the

22 so-called schwenk, the entire room.

23 Q. Just one second, sir. The translation I

24 heard was you were not a professional reporter and I am

25 informed that what you said is you were not a

Page 13694

1 professional photographer, which is it? Are you a

2 professional reporter?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Are you a professional photographer?

5 A. No, absolutely not. Before the war, I did

6 some work with the VHS camera. And during the war,

7 since our cameraman was in detention in Hadzici for

8 about two months, I, as a male person, accepted to work

9 with the camera and that my colleague can then work as

10 a reporter. And every expert that knows anything about

11 filming will see that in my filming there is a zoom

12 with a broad angle, which a professional cameraman

13 would never do. But those were the times.

14 Q. So basically you were pressed into service to

15 be a photographer because you could handle that big

16 camera better than your colleague who was a small

17 woman?

18 A. Yes, I am a gentleman.

19 Q. Okay, thank you very much, sir. Sir, tell us

20 more about the interviews with the doctors. First, do

21 you remember the doctors names?

22 A. I remember the hefty man, his name was

23 Relja. I don't remember the name of the other man.

24 Q. Did your colleague interview these people

25 while you were filming them?

Page 13695

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was there anyone around, any guards or any

3 staff or any people? Was Pavo around, for instance, or

4 Hazim, or was it just basically the four of you while

5 you were doing this interview?

6 A. I think that on the unedited material, you

7 will see that there was nobody except for the four of

8 us. I am sure you will see also film, images shot at a

9 broader angle.

10 Q. And, sir, do you recall what these two

11 doctors told you during this interview?

12 A. I cannot quote, but I think that maybe I

13 could outline the most characteristic elements.

14 Q. Sure, just do the best you can, sir.

15 A. The first interviewee, I don't remember his

16 name. He gave an imprecise statement. When he, when

17 my colleague asked him, who are the people in the

18 infirmary? He said that in addition to the people who

19 were injured in combat, that there were also people who

20 were imprisoned in the sports facility in Konjic, who

21 were injured. He said it. They were injured by some

22 kind of grenade. And I think it was quite clear of

23 what -- he then again said, well, when Konjic was

24 shelled and we know who shelled Konjic.

25 Q. Okay. And did the other doctor say anything

Page 13696

1 to you, sir?

2 A. Yes, she asked him about the cooperation with

3 the hospitaling of Konjic. And I think it was a very

4 relaxed discussion. Simply because that doctor, and I

5 don't remember his name, he insisted at the end of each

6 question, when answering, he wanted to add always

7 something. And we allowed that. He said that they

8 were prisoners and that now they have been released.

9 That they go home every day and return. And we have

10 agreed about this segment and we then had it in, when

11 edited, it was included. I don't know whether it was

12 all then shown on television.

13 Q. Sir, and after, did you see anyone else at

14 the camp or talk to anyone else after the camp, after

15 you met with the doctors and Zara and Mr. Cecez?

16 A. I also met with Zara's brother, but that was

17 before the filming. And I talked to him on the lawn, a

18 very short talk.

19 Q. And while you were talking to him, did he

20 complain about being beaten or starved or abused?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You said the weather was very hot that day,

23 were people complaining about not having water to drink

24 or anything like that?

25 A. No, no, absolutely not. You could see that

Page 13697

1 somebody was washing, somebody was washing a car and

2 they were watering the lawn. They had a house --

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the Trial

4 Chamber will rise for 30 minutes.

5 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And come back at five.

7 --- Recess taken at 4.33 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 5.04 p.m.

9 MR. MORAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours.

10 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

11 are still under oath.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please take your seat.

13 MR. MORAN: May it please the court.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed,

15 please.

16 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Good afternoon, again. Sir, about how long

18 in total was your visit in the Celebici camp?

19 A. About half an hour, maybe approximately 40

20 minutes, but I doubt it.

21 Q. While you were there, did you have occasion

22 to go into any of the warehouses or hangars that are

23 around the facility there?

24 A. No, nothing except the infirmary.

25 Q. Was that because you didn't want to, or was

Page 13698

1 that because somebody told you you couldn't?

2 A. Well, we received and we were granted more

3 than we expected. We found a more relaxed atmosphere

4 than one could expect for a camp, for a prison, and we

5 also had access to the person we asked for. I think

6 that we satisfied the journalists' code. We asked and,

7 to my judgement, we were asking and talking to one of

8 the main Serbs who rebelled, then a person who was

9 distributing food, the doctors, and the only thing that

10 was left out, which was missing, was the side, the

11 party under whose -- under whose command the prison

12 was.

13 Q. Okay. So nobody stopped you from going in?

14 You could have gone anywhere you wanted to in the camp?

15 A. Absolutely. We were standing there, we were

16 talking to the prisoners, detainees, to the soldiers or

17 the camp guards, who were dressed in civilian, half

18 civilian, half uniform type of apparel. And we saw

19 that they were joking among themselves because probably

20 they knew each other even before the war.

21 Q. Now, when you were going around the camp, did

22 you have an escort from the guards? For instance, in

23 this building, when you go from one place to another,

24 you have a guard escorting you, right?

25 A. No. The guard -- in the first -- we were

Page 13699

1 moving around mainly in the first part of the camp

2 where the prisoners were watering the lawn and the

3 trees. With Zara, I talked to Zara on the lawn behind

4 the infirmary, and we were alone.

5 Q. Sir, about when was this visit to the camp,

6 roughly?

7 A. I must say, in view of all the events and the

8 entire war, I really cannot remember exactly the date

9 and the time, but it could be asserted on the basis of

10 the film. It was aired on television. It's been put

11 in archives. Or, if you want to, I know that some

12 three, four or five days later in this camp there was

13 people -- people were under oath, giving their oath,

14 the new soldiers were giving the oath of the Army of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So it was -- we filmed that

16 reportage three or four days earlier.

17 Q. Sir, if I told you that that was -- that

18 ceremony was on August the 16th, would you agree with

19 me that, then, your visit to the camp would have had to

20 have been sometime around August the 10th, August the

21 11th, August the 12th, around then?

22 A. Quite probably, but I think we could see that

23 on the film. I have the film at home.

24 Q. Okay. Sir, also, after you left the camp --

25 well, let me back off. Did you have any contacts with

Page 13700

1 any representatives of the International Committee for

2 the Red Cross?

3 A. Not after that. You mean immediately after

4 that?

5 Q. No, no, no. At any time during this period.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what did they ask you about, sir?

8 A. They were interested in the Red Cross and the

9 prisoners in the camps, and I helped them as much as I

10 could. They told me that they have visited that camp.

11 Once I told them of the existence of the camp, they

12 told me they visited it. I showed them the refugees,

13 refugees from Eastern Bosnia who lived under open skies

14 in the Igman, on the slopes of Igman and Bjelasnica.

15 And they visited them, they recorded, registered all of

16 this. These refugees couldn't be sheltered in Pazaric

17 and Tarcin, since their people, non-Serbs from Hadzic,

18 were located there after the aggression against

19 Hadzici.

20 Q. Sir, when you talked to the

21 ICRC representatives, did they ask you about how you

22 get into a camp, or did they indicate to you that they

23 had had any problems getting into any camps?

24 A. No. No, they asked -- I told you that they

25 visited that camp even before we did.

Page 13701

1 Q. Okay, sir. Sir, back in October of 1996, do

2 you remember talking to a representative from the

3 Office of the Prosecutor named Sabine Manke?

4 A. I didn't know at the time that she is a

5 Prosecutor. I thought that she was a Prosecutor of the

6 Tribunal in The Hague. She can confirm that. I

7 offered my cooperation. I offered her all of the

8 filmed material. She gave me her visiting card and I

9 gave her my telephone numbers to that visit card. I

10 believe it said on the visiting card that she is a

11 police inspector.

12 Q. Okay, sir. Sir, in your statement to

13 Ms. Manke, you told her that the visit was towards the

14 end of June, didn't you?

15 A. I am not sure that I said that. It's

16 possible that I make a mistake, but not such a big

17 mistake in time.

18 Q. Sir -- so it's possible that when you talked

19 to Ms. Manke, you could have been mistaken about the

20 time of your visit to the camp?

21 A. Yes, I could make a mistake, but not for such

22 a long period of time. Maybe I said July.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. But you can see it on the film, the dates are

25 printed on the film.

Page 13702

1 Q. Okay. That's fine, sir. I just wanted to

2 let everyone know that you had -- that there was a

3 difference in dates.

4 When you had your interview with Ms. Manke

5 and you gave her the written statement, did you have a

6 lot of time to prepare for that and get your thoughts

7 together and make -- or was it just kind of a sudden

8 thing, while you were willing to cooperate, you didn't

9 have time to check notes? Which was it, sir?

10 A. No, I didn't have the time. Absolutely not.

11 I think I was working in the field as a reporter, I

12 received the message, I went and visited two

13 skyscrapers, which were burned down during the shelling

14 of Sarajevo, and I think that we had this talk on the

15 8th or 10th floor of one of these two skyscrapers. We

16 discussed it in a relaxed atmosphere, and she can

17 confirm that I had no time to prepare myself. And we

18 even joked during this discussion.

19 Q. Okay. But as you sit here today and having

20 thought about it, the best that your memory is, is this

21 visit to the camp was the 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th of

22 August, not June or July; is that fair?

23 A. Well, it would be impossible. June would be

24 impossible.

25 Q. Okay, sir. Fine.

Page 13703

1 I thank you very much, Your Honour. I pass

2 the witness.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

4 Any cross-examinations?

5 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic

6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Demic. I am Edina

7 Residovic, and I am the Defence Counsel of

8 Mr. Delalic.

9 Mr. Demic, we've met before.

10 A. Yes. As I began as a journalist, I knew from

11 the media. But you didn't know me, however.

12 Q. Well, thank you. Sir, during the main

13 examination you said you heard on the radio that they

14 are poorly fed, namely, the Serbs imprisoned in

15 Celebici. On the other hand, is it true that you've

16 heard from our fighters that the conditions under which

17 the prisoners lived are even better than those for our

18 soldiers?

19 A. On a number of occasions I heard that.

20 Q. Before I continue, Mr. Demic, with questions,

21 which I will be addressing to you, I would only like to

22 ask you whether it's true that your pseudonym is Zvonko

23 Maric?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But this pseudonym, this Zvonko Maric, you

Page 13704

1 used it as a war reporter from the free territories of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

3 A. Yes, even today.

4 Q. That is why you, Mr. Demic, will not be angry

5 if I occasionally address you as Mr. Maric?

6 A. It's all the same to me. Even I don't know

7 -- make the distinction any more.

8 Q. In view of the fact that you have heard from

9 Radio Srna, on the other hand you heard something from

10 our combatants, you -- this all caused a rise of

11 interest in you, and you wanted to confirm the facts?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is it also true that already at that time you

14 have been convinced a number of times that from the

15 Serb radio, and from the Serb television, certain

16 untruths are being aired on the situation in the area

17 where you were living at the time?

18 A. Well, quite a number of times. After the

19 liberation of Gradina, for example, Radio Srna said the

20 information was -- said -- aired that 5.000 Serbs were

21 detained in a tunnel. I was passing by that tunnel

22 every day, and I knew that there were no Serbs were

23 detained there. And even more drastic, as I see it,

24 ten young soldiers of the former JNA, who were detained

25 in the barracks of Pazaric Krupa, Srna aired, as did

Page 13705

1 Radio Belgrade, that they were hanged in Tarcin in the

2 town square. Tarcin is a village and it has no village

3 square. That's on the first account.

4 Secondly, these young soldiers for a long

5 time were sleeping in the same premises as the soldiers

6 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Then they were liberated and

7 returned home to their respective homes.

8 Q. Thank you. You have confirmed that we know

9 each other. Is it also true that in June, 1996 you

10 have told the investigator, Mrs. Kreso -- gave a

11 statement concerning this report and the filming of the

12 report in Celebici?

13 A. Yes, that is true.

14 Q. Is it also true that after that -- to me, as

15 the Defence Counsel of Mr. Delalic, you gave me the

16 original, unedited material of the reportage from

17 Celebici?

18 A. Yes, I gave it to you, as I would to any

19 other official person.

20 Q. Prior to the war, Mr. Demic, you did not know

21 Mr. Delalic?

22 A. No. No, I didn't.

23 Q. Just you got to know him by accident in

24 Konjic, when he stopped to greet his friends and your

25 common friends?

Page 13706

1 A. Yes, that was in front of the cultural house

2 in Konjic, and possibly somebody from the command was

3 there, and maybe the headquarters of certain services.

4 Q. You can also confirm that that was somewhere

5 in the month of June, when you heard from your

6 acquaintances, who were greeted by Mr. Delalic, that he

7 worked in the area of logistics?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. Mr. Demic, during the main examination, and

10 let's go back to the reportage in Celebici, you said

11 that the person who introduced himself as Pavo enabled

12 you to shoot that what you wanted to film?

13 A. Yes, without any problems.

14 Q. Since you were accompanied by your colleague,

15 Jadranka Milosevic, is it true that both your colleague

16 and you had an interest -- were interested in asserting

17 and confirming a number of pieces of information,

18 namely, are people starving, the detainees, are they

19 starving, what is the treatment of the most important

20 prisoners, and, thirdly, what was the status and the

21 care for the sick people there? I wanted to ask, were

22 these the main objectives of your visit there?

23 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I am going to ask

24 that Madam Residovic not lead the witness. I know it's

25 not her witness, but it was her witness originally on

Page 13707

1 her witness list. If she wants to obtain the evidence

2 from the witness now because an opportunity presents

3 itself, I certainly don't object to that. But I do

4 object to leading in these circumstances, because,

5 really, it's practically no different to her actually

6 calling the witness herself.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ask him the normal

8 questions and he will answer.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, if I err in

10 questions, please make notice of that. I will

11 reformulate -- rephrase the questions. But, of course,

12 we are interested in all witnesses, including the

13 witnesses of the --

14 A. I am a bit embarrassed. Nobody has led me.

15 This is -- I feel a bit offended with this remark.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you didn't

17 understand what he meant by leading questions. You did

18 not understand that. It's not your language. It's not

19 even your profession. We have said things which are

20 related to how counsel should introduce questions. So

21 listen to your counsel carefully and answer questions

22 put to you.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much, Your

24 Honour.

25 Q. Sir, did you want to determine what the state

Page 13708

1 of feeding the prisoners in the camp of Celebici was?

2 A. Well, we wanted to determine the events, but

3 this is also something that any journalist would want

4 to find out.

5 Q. In the examination in chief, Mr. Demic, you

6 mentioned that you, without any problems, entered the

7 barracks. Could you please tell us, at the moment when

8 you were entering the barracks, at the moment when you

9 were arranging what kind of things to shoot, at the

10 moment of the actual shooting and after you had left

11 the barracks, did you at any time in the barracks of

12 Celebici see or meet Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

13 A. No. I can retake my solemn declaration on

14 that.

15 Q. Did you, Mr. Demic, prior to what you called

16 a sudden decision to visit the Celebici camp, ever talk

17 to Mr. Delalic about your wish to go to this barracks?

18 My question is, is it -- my question is whether it is

19 true that you have never spoken about this to

20 Mr. Delalic?

21 A. I have never spoken to anybody about this

22 specifically. I mentioned the possibility of my visit

23 to the camp to make this story, but, as I mentioned, we

24 were assured that there would be no problems, and I

25 would say this in front of a large number of people,

Page 13709

1 and it was possible that Mr. Delic (sic) was there when

2 we met. Maybe I mentioned it at that time too. I do

3 not exclude that possibility.

4 Q. Mr. Demic, before the interview with these

5 doctors, did you, with them together, sit in some of

6 the rooms of the administrative building?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you, before you started your interviews

9 with the doctors and other persons, make any

10 arrangements, what kinds of questions you would be

11 asking of those persons?

12 A. Never.

13 Q. Did you, after you had made the interview, go

14 to the administrative building and sit with anybody

15 there, and, specifically, did you take a seat there

16 with the doctors that you interviewed?

17 A. No. Absolutely not. Particularly, because

18 it was very hot and it was much more convenient to sit

19 not in this building, but in another building which was

20 -- whose doors were open.

21 Q. So, Mr. Demic, you are absolutely positive,

22 you are absolutely certain, and you can confirm that

23 during the entire time of your stay in the compound of

24 the barracks, Celebici, you never met or saw

25 Mr. Delalic?

Page 13710

1 A. Absolutely.

2 Q. Is it true that after you had finished your

3 task that you had given to yourself in the barracks of

4 Celebici, that you left for Konjic?

5 A. Yes. And we were very pleased about what

6 we've done.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Before I put some more

8 questions with regard to your travel to Konjic, I would

9 now like to ask the Trial Chamber, since the witness a

10 year and a half ago gave the complete film, the

11 complete tape of this interview to me, and I had given

12 it to the Trial Chamber, I would like the Trial Chamber

13 to allow it to have this -- to have this story shown so

14 that we can see what exactly the interview is like.

15 And I would like for story number 1 to be shown.

16 The translation of the text has been given to

17 the interpreters. Could we please see story number 1.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is it the same film in

19 which the witness says he has it at home did you say?

20 The witness indicated he left his own copy at home.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. This is exactly about

22 this uncut, unedited version of his material. He gave

23 one version to me and I gave another copy of this

24 material to the Prosecutor about a year and a half

25 ago. And the witness has reconfirmed that he gave this

Page 13711

1 tape to me, and I would like this -- for this tape to

2 be shown. This is the original tape that this witness

3 took on the premises of the barracks of Celebici. I

4 would like the technical department to show this

5 story. It is story number 1.

6 (Videotape played)

7 We are here at the entrance of the makeshift

8 health clinic in the prison in Celebici. Here you can

9 see Serb doctors, Mr. Petko Grubac, a

10 neuropsychiatrist, and Relja Mrkajic, an ear, nose,

11 throat specialist.

12 What are you doing here? Well, we happened

13 to be in Bradina during the war activities. My

14 colleague and I were there. He has a house there and I

15 was in my father-in-law's weekend cottage. You are

16 here at this clinic and you treat the prisoners. What

17 is their condition? Well, you saw their condition.

18 Now they are in relatively good condition. We bandage

19 them from time to time. We give them the medicine if

20 it is necessary and that is how we take care for their

21 health. You say you bandage them, what kind of

22 injuries do they have? That is to say, when were those

23 injuries sustained? Well, their injuries were

24 sustained as a consequence of those people being

25 wounded. There are injuries sustained later, while

Page 13712

1 they were in prison in Konjic, were sustained by some

2 kind of grenades. You are here in this hospital, you

3 work with your colleague, how do the prisoners feel now

4 and what kind of injuries did the wounded sustain? The

5 patients here are in a relatively good condition of

6 health. This means that it is satisfactory. The

7 wounded sustained their injuries in the sports hall

8 while fighting and in the shelling of Konjic. Three of

9 them were wounded there. One of them is fine, while

10 the other two are relatively fine. The state of their

11 wounds has improved a lot, compared to when they were

12 brought to us. I think they will be fine in a week or

13 two. You are a doctor here, how come you are a doctor

14 here? Was that requested by the prisoners or was it

15 your own initiative? I do not know if the prisoners

16 requested that or not. However, since the prisoners

17 were there, that is, wounded people and the persons

18 brought in, I was told that it was necessary to phone

19 the hospital where my colleague and I would work. You

20 live here in Konjic, in Celebici, in Ostrozac? I live

21 in Ostrozac. Everyday a car is sent for me. I perform

22 medical check-ups of all prisoners, bandage the wounded

23 and I go home again. How does the hospital in Konjic

24 cooperate? We used to write and we still write daily

25 needs. However, now we will write the needs for

Page 13713

1 several days regarding the medicines and bandage

2 materials. We receive enough bandage materials so the

3 cooperation is very good. Thank you very much. Maybe

4 just to say that we were also prisoners here, we were

5 released just three weeks ago. At the beginning we

6 were prisoners like everyone else and we worked as

7 doctors in this clinic. We were released three weeks

8 ago and now we come to work here as free doctors.

9 Zarko Mrkajic from Bradina. I have a

10 restaurant in Bradina and I am a prisoner of war here.

11 I was arrested two days after fight in Bradina. How

12 are you treated here? They treat us quite okay. The

13 food is good. We have three meals a day. And there's

14 enough food. Are you satisfied with the

15 accommodations? The accommodations are okay. It is

16 satisfying. I can see you have doctors here. The

17 doctors come everyday. Every second day we receive

18 parcels from home with food, fruit, vegetables and

19 similar. So it is better than what the soldiers on the

20 positions have? What do you mean? Well, you have food

21 three times a day and you are delivered food from

22 home? Yes. I do not know what they have there. The

23 same as you have here.

24 Ratko Cecez, from Donje Selo. I was born on

25 the 26th of May in Donje Selo. I was brought here as a

Page 13714

1 prisoner of war. I had been here in the camp. It is

2 nice. As he said, we have three meals a day. I

3 distribute the food. The food is good. There's some

4 extra food that we give to the elderly who can eat

5 more. There's enough bread. The superiors in charge

6 of law and order are nice. We are happy with them.

7 Thank you very much.

8 MR. MORAN: Just so the record is clear, if

9 that has an exhibit number, if we can get it into the

10 record, what exhibit we just saw.

11 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Defence Exhibit --

12 (Not on microphone).

13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Regarding the transcript, in

14 the LiveNote beginning on page 58, the full text was

15 interpreted, but for some reason it was not typed into

16 the transcript. Could we ensure that the court

17 reporters listen to the audio version after the

18 proceedings and include everything that was translated

19 so that the transcript is complete.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any other

21 questions to ask him?

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours.

23 Q. Mr. Demic, is this the complete tape of your

24 story that you shot in the barracks of Celebici? And

25 during which your colleague, Jadranka Milosevic, led

Page 13715

1 the interview and you were the camera person for these

2 interviews. Do you recognise this as your materials?

3 A. Yes, this is my story and my colleague was

4 interviewing the persons and this is an uncut, unedited

5 version. This is all the material that we had which we

6 used to make the final story. Thank you. You saw the

7 atmosphere in which we worked. You can see the

8 details. The wish of the doctor to say something more

9 because he probably felt that he -- this was important

10 to say to the inmates and he was allowed to and the

11 other guard didn't even ask him where he lived. We

12 didn't even precisely know where they lived -- he said

13 Ostrozac.

14 Q. Thank you. Since this witness recognised

15 this film as a film he made himself, and considering

16 the relevancy of this film, I move to admit this

17 exhibit as evidence for the Defence.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any objection? It's an

19 exhibit.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much.

21 Q. Mr. Demic, you said, didn't you, that from

22 Celebici you went towards Konjic? Actually, I would

23 like to rephrase this question. During the year of

24 1992, you were always -- you resided in Pazaric and

25 Tarcin?

Page 13716

1 A. And Igman.

2 Q. So, when from the Celebici barracks you went

3 towards Pazaric, you were supposed to pass through

4 Konjic?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. It is known to you that at the very entrance

7 of Konjic there is a family house of Mr. Delalic; is

8 that correct?

9 A. I know this more because there was a disco

10 there then because this was the house of Mr. Delalic.

11 Q. You mean a disco, the night-club was there

12 before the war. Is it true, Mr. Demic, that while you

13 were passing by the house of Mr. Delalic, you happened

14 to meet Mr. Delalic there; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, about twenty metres before the gas

16 station, which is on the right side, if you are going

17 from the direction of Jablanica.

18 Q. Is it true that at that time Mr. Delalic,

19 except for greeting you, also gave you the sign to

20 stop?

21 A. (No audible answer)

22 Q. Is it also true, Mr. Demic, that at that time

23 Mr. Delalic told you --

24 JUDGE JAN: The answer has not come on the

25 script. The answer to your last question has not gone

Page 13717

1 on the script.


3 Q. I asked the question if it was correct that

4 at that time Mr. Delalic gave you a sign to stop, what

5 did you respond?

6 A. I said, yes, he did, about 20 metres before a

7 gas station, which was on the right-hand side if you're

8 going from the direction of Jablanica.

9 Q. Is it also correct, Mr. Demic, that at that

10 time, Mr. Delalic informed you that a small celebration

11 was just about to take place of the transfer of the

12 flag with representatives of HOS and he also asked you

13 to film this ceremony?

14 A. Yes, this had to do with the fact that the

15 HOS forces were to become an integral part of the army

16 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 Q. Did you at that time, Mr. Demic, stop and go

18 into the yard of the house of Mr. Delalic?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. Mr. Demic, in this yard of the house of Mr.

21 Zejnil Delalic, is there a willow which is very well

22 recognisable and it is situated right in the yard?

23 A. Yes, it's behind the house.

24 Q. Before we continue I would like to ask you to

25 wait for the interpretation of my questions so that the

Page 13718

1 questions and the answers are not mixed up. For

2 technical reasons, of course. So you said that this

3 willow was behind the house.

4 Did you at this time, Mr. Demic, inform or

5 did you at this time, Mr. Demic, tell Mr. Delalic that

6 you had just visited the prison in Celebici?

7 A. Yes, immediately after I greeted him and we

8 exchanged some words, I told him that I have another

9 story for today about the visit to the Celebici or the

10 barracks, Celebici.

11 Q. At that time, did you personally come up with

12 the idea to ask Mr. Delalic to say a few words about

13 the first story that you had just finished?

14 A. I explained to him what this was about. And

15 I asked him to do that, but he refused to do so. And

16 he considered that it was more important for him to do

17 what he had suggested to me.

18 Q. Mr. Demic, please, is it true that at that

19 time, Mr. Zejnil Delalic told you, what does that have

20 to do with me? Why are you asking me about these

21 things? Were those the words of Mr. Delalic in the

22 moment when you suggested to Mr. Delalic to make a

23 statement?

24 A. Yes, he said something to that effect. And,

25 later, I think we did not give up and I think we found

Page 13719

1 a compromise. We will do what is important for you,

2 but we also need a segment of a statement to finish the

3 story from Celebici. Because before that we passed by

4 the house of Zvonko Zovko and we would advise anybody

5 if they found them, anybody from the more influential

6 people in Konjic, but we couldn't find his jeep, which

7 was normally parked in front of the house. And this

8 house was just four or five kilometres away from the

9 family house of Mr. Delalic. We saw that there was no

10 jeep, and, therefore, we went on to find somebody else

11 whose statements we could take.

12 Q. If I understood you correctly, Mr. Demic, the

13 fact that you asked Mr. Zejnil Delalic for a statement

14 was simply because you just happened to meet him on

15 your way from Celebici?

16 A. Yes, we were also a little bit short of time

17 because we had to submit our story from a transmitter

18 which was on Bjelasnica, the Mount Bjelasnica. And

19 after the travel, which took about an hour and a half

20 by car, we had to walk for another hour and twenty

21 minutes to submit this material in Sarajevo. And we

22 needed a couple of routine sentences.

23 Q. Do you perhaps remember, Mr. Demic, where Mr.

24 Delalic was standing at the time when you got this

25 statement from him with regard to Celebici?

Page 13720

1 A. Yes, the willow was in the background, it was

2 neutral.

3 Q. Since you had just visited the barracks of

4 Celebici, is there a willow in the barracks?

5 A. Well, on this model you can see that there

6 are no willows at Celebici.

7 JUDGE JAN: There's one question I would like

8 to ask you.

9 Examined by Judge Jan:

10 Q. On your way back to Konjic from Celebici, you

11 must have met a number of persons, why ask Delalic

12 alone to make a statement?

13 A. I did not understand the question. We were

14 driving by car.

15 Q. You must have seen a number of persons on the

16 way back?

17 A. Yes, we were driving and we couldn't meet

18 people who were in cars also. And if --

19 Q. Why ask Delalic alone to make a statement?

20 A. I came to the gate and he waved to me and

21 this was where our first discussion took place and our

22 intent was to maybe ask the commander.

23 Q. Why ask Delalic to make a statement? Did you

24 think that he has anything to do with Celebici?

25 A. I knew that he had nothing to do with

Page 13721

1 Celebici, but I also knew that he was -- he's a

2 logistics person, so he might have procured food, which

3 he probably did. And our investigation went to that

4 effect that people were being starved there. And then

5 we also found out from the commander, Ramic, that in

6 the same pot, food for both the fighters, the soldiers,

7 and the inmates was prepared.

8 Q. Delalic had nothing to do with the

9 distribution of food?

10 A. No, absolutely not. I think he would never

11 do such a thing.

12 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, excuse me, just

13 for assistance of the Court, since you know I am so

14 familiar with the Konjic area. I thought that the

15 Court would like to know that as you're driving from

16 Celebici back into Konjic, the very first house you

17 come to is the house of Zejnil Delalic on the left. So

18 I don't know if that may assist the Court or not, but,

19 logistically, it's the first house.

20 THE WITNESS: That's what I tried to explain,

21 but the distinguished judge didn't let me finish

22 because the distance between Celebici and the house is

23 not big enough, it's only a couple of kilometres.


25 Q. Please, could you now state clearly so that

Page 13722

1 it may be entered into the transcript, is the house of

2 Zejnil Delalic the first house that you come across

3 when you enter the Town of Konjic?

4 A. Absolutely, yes.

5 Q. Let me just reconfirm, you'd simply by chance

6 noticed Mr. Delalic when he was exiting his house when

7 he waved to you and then he asked you to stop?

8 A. Yes, I saw him and his driver.

9 Q. Do you know the name of his driver?

10 A. I think his name is Irfan, I-r-f-a-n.

11 Q. Mr. Demic, could you please tell me whether

12 after this event, let's say this is the first half of

13 August, did you, after this event, ever visit the

14 barracks of Celebici?

15 A. After this story, there was an oath taking,

16 maybe four or five days in Celebici and we also went to

17 Jablanica to get gasoline and then we found out that

18 there was an event taking place and then we dropped

19 by. But this event was being shot by another team.

20 And, therefore, we just had a drink, stayed there for a

21 short while, saw how a couple of people are dressed,

22 the soldiers. And I think it was a very great

23 ceremony.

24 Q. Mr. Demic, when you say "we," who are you

25 referring to?

Page 13723

1 A. I am referring to myself and Jadranka

2 Milosevic.

3 Q. Mr. Demic, is it true that you and the

4 reporter, Jadranka Milosevic, in this period, worked

5 together and made numerous stories from the war areas

6 of Hadzici, Pazaric, Igman and Konjic as well?

7 A. Yes, and Trnovo up until Prozor, wherever it

8 was possible. We were very mobile.

9 Q. Since you attended this oath taking at the

10 barracks of Celebici, could you please tell us whether

11 you know if Mr. Delalic as a commander of a tactic

12 group greeted the soldiers who were taking the oath?

13 A. In what capacity, I am not sure, but he did

14 address the soldiers apart from other people who were

15 there.

16 Q. Is it true, Mr. Demic, that after that time

17 you, in these war conditions, were meeting Mr. Delalic

18 quite often in the area of Pazaric, Taracin, Ormanje,

19 Igman, on the battle lines for the lifting of the

20 blockade of Sarajevo?

21 A. Yes, quite often.

22 Q. Mr. Demic, did you film an interview with Mr.

23 Delalic as the commander of the Tactical Group No. 1?

24 A. I think it was in Ormanje during the

25 preparations for battle action. And I think that in

Page 13724

1 that zone there was quite a lot of activity going on in

2 that area of Ormanje.

3 Q. Do you know, Mr. Demic, whether the battle

4 lines of the Tactical Group 1, commanded by Mr.

5 Delalic, were in close proximity to the lines of HVO?

6 A. Well, this was a triangle. The Serbs were in

7 Ostrik. That is an elevation which was previously held

8 by HVO. I don't know what the agreement was, but I

9 believe that the HVO ceded that hill to the Serb

10 rebels and they set up a Defence line lower down along

11 Lepenica. While the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina

12 held the lines on Koscan, an elevation below Ostrozac.

13 Q. Mr. Demic, during the interview you have

14 filmed with Mr. Delalic in Ormanje, did Mr. Delalic

15 indicate certain problems which existed in connection

16 with HVO?

17 A. Yes, this applied particularly to HVO in

18 Kiseljak and Kresevo, which was a specific situation

19 throughout the war, in fact. This was a contact line

20 between Kobiljaca and the HVO and the rebel Serbs.

21 Q. I apologise to the witness and to the trial

22 here. Here we hear "Ostrozac", the witness spoke about

23 Mount Ostrik, between Pasaric and Kiseljak. I am

24 drawing your attention to that for the minutes and

25 correction should be introduced, Ostrik. I will have

Page 13725

1 other questions for the witness. I don't know whether

2 this is the correct time, Your Honour, to raise it or

3 shall we adjourn now? Whatever Your Honour says.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Since you have quite a

5 number of questions more, we shall adjourn until

6 tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. The Trial Chamber will

7 now rise.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 MR. NIEMANN: Before we do rise, might I

10 indicate that I will no longer be available here

11 tomorrow and Ms. McHenry will take over for me. I will

12 be returning the Hague in August.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

14 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

15 6.00 p.m., to be reconvened on the

16 2nd day of July, 1998, at 10.00 a.m.