1 Wednesday, 8th July, 1998
2 --- Upon commencing at 10.00 a.m.
3 (The witness entered court)
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and
5 gentlemen. May we have the appearances now.
6 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honours.
7 Teresa McHenry for the Prosecution, along with Mr.
8 Huber. Thank you.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the
10 appearances for the Defence.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
12 I am Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil
13 Delalic. Mr. Delalic is also represented by my
14 colleague, Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, professor from
15 Canada. Thank you.
16 MR. DURIC: My name is Niko Duric and I am
17 representing Mr. Zdravko Mucic.
18 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I
19 am Salih Karabdic, attorney for Mr. Hazim Delic, along
20 with Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston, Texas.
21 Thank you.
22 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours, I
23 am Cynthia McMurrey and along with my colleague,
24 Ms. Nancy Boler, we represent Esad Landzo. Ms. Boler
25 will not be present in the Courtroom today. Thank
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We'll begin this morning
3 with your next witness, Mr. Moran. I see Mrs. McHenry
4 is standing.
5 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour. I just
6 wanted to advise the Court that this -- I am not now
7 asking for anything, but I wanted to advise the Court
8 that this is a doctor who is testifying as an expert.
9 There has been no expert report. On Monday afternoon
10 we received 250 pages of transcript that the doctor
11 used to prepare, and this morning, and I had an
12 opportunity to skim that material. This morning I got
13 a few more pages, which I have not even had an
14 opportunity to look at. Of course, I am not a doctor,
15 and not having had an expert report, I haven't been
16 able even to consult with anyone about what he may or
17 may not say and cross-examination. I am not now asking
18 for a continuance of the cross-examination. I am just
19 -- because I have no idea what he is going to say, and
20 so it may not be necessary. I just wanted to apprise
21 the Court of the situation.
22 So in the unfortunate event I have to ask for
23 a continuance before cross-examination, at least you
24 would know what the situation that the Prosecution is
25 faced with.
1 MR. MORAN: And, Your Honours, just so that
2 the record is clear, I received a letter from the
3 Office of the Prosecutor on Monday saying that they
4 wanted these documents by 2.30 on Monday or otherwise
5 they would have to ask for a continuance. And those
6 documents were provided to them, or made available to
7 them, prior to the time that they asked for.
8 Just so that the record is clear.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that really the
10 issue? What is the direction here -- the directive
11 here about presenting an expert witness?
12 MR. MORAN: Well, Your Honour, Dr. Bellas has
13 not prepared a written report. He is basing his
14 opinions solely on testimony of the Prosecution
15 witnesses. Nothing more and nothing less, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the expertise he
17 is expecting to give to the Tribunal.
18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour -- you mean his
19 expertise, Your Honour?
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, what is his area of
21 expertise, since all he is doing is to comment --
22 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. Dr. Bellas is
23 a forensic pathologist. Is he a graduate of the
24 medical school in, I believe, the University of Havana
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is his
2 qualification. I am asking for the expertise you
3 expect him to give.
4 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, I expect Dr.
5 Bellas to testify that based on the assumption that the
6 Prosecution witnesses were telling the truth, when they
7 testified, that their testimony, in all reasonable
8 medical probability, and he'll define that term for
9 you, there would have been substantially more deaths in
10 the camps, there would have been substantially more
11 injuries, there would have been substantially more
12 illness. The physical condition of the inmates at the
13 Celebici camp, both based on lack of food, water, the
14 living conditions that were described by the
15 Prosecution witnesses, and the abuse that was described
16 by the Prosecution witnesses, that if, in fact, that
17 occurred, one would expect that there would be
18 substantially -- there would have been much worse
19 injuries. There would have, in all likelihood, been a
20 severe outbreak of communicable diseases, there would
21 have been -- one would expect that there would be
22 substantial numbers of people suffering from heat
23 stroke, which is a life threatening condition.
24 That there would have been severe
25 dehydration, possibly causing death, and --
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: These are your own
2 opinions, not his own -- anyway, let's carry on with
3 him, because what you are saying is an opinion that he
4 would give, any other person could give. Now, let's
5 hear him.
6 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, Dr. Bellas has
7 not been sworn.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
12 MR. MORAN: May it please the Court.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed,
15 WITNESS: EDUARDO BELLAS
16 Examined by Mr. Moran
17 Q. Good morning, Dr. Bellas.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. Would you introduce yourself to members of
20 the Trial Chamber?
21 A. My first name is Eduardo and last name
22 Bellas, B-e-l-l-a-s.
23 Q. And, doctor, tell the members of the Trial
24 Chamber about your formal education?
25 A. I received my medical diploma in 1957,
1 February. I spent two years in rotating internship in
2 the hospital of the University of Havana Medical School
3 for two years. Then I train three years in the field
4 of pathology. That was between 1959, 1962, January,
5 January. After that I was a full licensed pathologist
6 in the island --
7 Q. When you say "the island", what island are we
8 talking about?
9 A. Cuba. This was until 1971, the last day of
10 the year, that is on December the 30th, 1971. That day
11 I travelled to the United States and six months later I
12 revalidate my medical diploma in Balor Medical School
13 at Houston that was on July 26th, 1972.
14 Beginning in January the 1st, 1973, until the
15 last day, January, 1974, that is two years, that time
16 was spent with the University of Texas Medical School
17 at Houston in training in pathology. That is the
18 second time in my life I take training in pathology.
19 After I finished this training, I was
20 appointed assistant medical examiner for Harris County
21 in Houston, Texas. I hold this position for about more
22 than 15 years, when I was appointed deputy chief
23 medical examiner for Harris County, Houston, Texas.
24 The last year I spent in the office, I was
25 acting chief medical examiner for Harris County,
1 Houston, Texas.
2 I belong to the basic organisations in my
3 field, in my career, and I have licence to practice
4 medicine in the state of Texas and in the state of
5 Florida, both.
6 Q. Doctor, while you were in Cuba, would you
7 tell the judges about the practical experience you had,
8 the jobs, where you worked, and what your duties were.
9 A. I spent, I say, full licensed pathologist in
10 Cuba. I spent most of the time in teaching hospitals.
11 That is, my practice in Cuba was mainly in the field of
12 pathology in the area of the teaching hospital in the
13 island. And that was a very active practice with many
14 meetings and preparation of clinical pathology
16 The practice in Cuba was predominantly in the
17 hospital field, and the practice in the United States
18 in the forensic area.
19 Q. Doctor, what are the duties of the office of
20 the medical examiner for Harris County, Texas, in
22 A. In general, we have the main duty to
23 establish the cause of death. People under certain
24 circumstances, we handle the cases, homicide,
25 accidental, suicidal death, and also some type of
1 natural causes of death under circumstances that the
2 law establish. We have to establish the cause of
3 death. One of our duties, also, is to help or to come
4 to the opinion about the manner of death. We have the
5 suicide, the homicide, the accidental death, the
6 natural death, and sometimes, when the situation is not
7 clear, the manner of death, we -- we come and
9 Another duty is that we are requested very,
10 very often to testify in Court for the different cases,
11 particularly in homicide. But that is not the only
12 situation. There are civil litigations, there are
13 situations of death while at work that require some
14 opinions and some considerations.
15 Q. Doctor --
16 A. -- about circumstances.
17 Q. About testifying, how many times have you
18 testified as an expert witness in criminal trials?
19 A. In the beginning I start to count them, but
20 in a period of time of 20 years I didn't count.
21 Several hundred.
22 Q. And how many of those were you testifying as
23 an expert witness for the Prosecutor?
24 A. Many, many times.
25 Q. In fact, you've testified as an expert
1 witness for the Prosecutor, in, what, four murder cases
2 where I was the Defence attorney?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. Give or take. Doctor, just so that the
5 judges will have an idea of the volume of practice,
6 approximately how many investigations per year are
7 conducted by the Harris County Medical Examiner's
8 Office into the cause of death?
9 A. We were escalating from 1975 to 1996, when I
10 stopped working for the Medical Examiner's Office. The
11 number of homicides and other causes of death, several
12 hundred, even in the scale of thousands.
13 Q. Per year?
14 A. Not per year, but in total.
15 JUDGE JAN: I am just wondering --
16 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, actually, the number
17 of murders we have has gone down from about 700 a year
18 down to, what, about 450?
19 A. 400 homicides in the last years, yes.
20 Q. So that's -- that will give Your Honour some
21 idea of the scale that we are talking about. And,
22 doctor, it's not just homicides, but, for instance, you
23 would see -- investigate deaths and trauma caused by
24 things like traffic accidents or falls or --
25 A. Yes, that is correct. All kinds of --
1 Q. And do you hold any -- are you certified by
2 any agencies as a board certified pathologist or
3 forensic pathologist?
4 A. Yes. There is the speciality board in the
5 United States. I am certified with the American Board
6 of Pathology. I received that in anatomical pathology
7 in 1985, and board certification in forensic in 1987.
8 Q. And you are still receiving training in both
9 pathology and just general medicine, aren't you?
10 A. All the time, yes.
11 Q. In fact, I think you just told me you just
12 finished, what, 35 hours worth of training? Was I
13 right on that?
14 A. 35?
15 Q. Or some number of hours, just in the last
16 couple of weeks.
17 A. Yes. Yes.
18 Q. And, doctor, because -- based on your
19 training and your experience, are you familiar with the
20 effects of blunt trauma on the human body?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What is blunt trauma?
23 A. Blunt trauma or blunt force are injuries that
24 are associated with solid objects. In blunt trauma we
25 have to distinguish two type of lesions. One is the
1 contusion, the synonym for contusion is bruise,
2 B-R-U-I-S-E, is the same thing. A contusion is blunt
3 force inflicted over the surface of the body,
4 sufficient to produce haemorrhage or extravasation.
5 Extravasation and haemorrhage are synonyms. And, of
6 course, under the circumstances there is swelling and
7 discoloration, bluish-black in the beginning and later
8 on these colours start to fade and replaced by a brown
9 and yellow colour, until everything disappears. That
10 is the bruise or the contusion, sufficient to produce
11 haemorrhage, swelling, and discoloration, but not
12 sufficient to produce tear. If there is a tear, that
13 is a discontinuation of the tissue, rupture of the
14 tissue, then we call laceration, blunt force.
15 Laceration is an open door for infection. That doesn't
16 mean that a bruise or a contusion could not be infected
17 as well.
18 Q. And when you say laceration, what you are
19 saying is a cut, an opening in the skin?
20 A. A tear of the skin.
21 Q. And a contusion is a bruise?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. In layman's terms. And are you familiar with
24 the infliction of blunt trauma on, for instance, a
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And how about burns? Have you seen burns
3 very often in your practice?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And are you familiar with the kinds of
6 injuries that burns would cause, both in people who are
7 living and people who are deceased?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And are you familiar with the effects of
10 starvation, dehydration, high temperature, things like
11 that on the human body?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. And the things that that would likely to
14 cause, both in people who are deceased and people who
15 are still alive?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. Now, your practice in the last 20 years has
18 been limited to dead people?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. But you still, based on your training and
21 experience, both as a physician and as a medical
22 examiner, know what would likely occur in a living
23 person also?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Doctor, we are going to use the phrase, or I
1 am going to use the phrase several times, the phrase
2 "in all reasonable medical probability". Would you
3 define what you mean by that to the judges.
4 A. Reasonable, something that makes sense.
5 Probability is a strong evidence that something can
6 happen. And medical, within the medical field, medical
8 Q. And typically in your past practice, in the
9 past times, when you've testified as an expert witness,
10 you've had the advantage of examining the body or
11 examining the patient and seeing lab results; is that
13 A. Yes, several, yes.
14 Q. And we didn't have that in this case?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. Doctor, did I give you a volume of about 250
17 pages of transcripts of the testimony?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. And did you base your opinion on that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Your Honour, with the help of the usher, I
22 have four copies of that. One for the registry and one
23 for each member of the Trial Chamber. I am not going
24 to introduce it into evidence. It's nothing but
25 excerpts from the transcript. But I want the Trial
1 Chamber to see what he relied on. Also, Your Honour,
2 due to a printing error, a reproduction error, the last
3 three pages of what Dr. Bellas was given were omitted
4 from your volumes. I will -- two or three pages. At
5 the break I will have them reproduced and brought up.
6 And I apologise for the reproduction error.
7 Doctor, when I asked you to examine this, did
8 I tell you to presume that the witnesses for the
9 Prosecution were telling the truth?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And then did I ask you to form an opinion
12 based upon what you presumed to be truthful evidence?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. As to what, in all reasonable medical
15 probability, would have been the results of various
16 pieces of evidence?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Doctor, I would first like to talk you a
19 little bit about the conditions in the camp, as
20 described by the witnesses for the Prosecution, as to
21 food, water, cleanliness, toilet conditions, living
22 conditions. And tell the judges the facts you are
23 going to base your opinion on, just describe what you
24 understand the conditions in the Celebici camp to be as
25 described by the witnesses for the Prosecution.
1 A. The conditions, in general, were, according
2 with the transcripts, very poor conditions, very --
3 extremely dangerous situation for many, many
4 complications, as infections or dehydration, high
5 environmental temperature. In other words,
6 multi-factoral circumstances that all of them very,
7 very, obviously, to endanger human life.
8 Q. Doctor, about the environmental conditions,
9 let's talk a little bit about temperature. As you
10 described it, I showed you pictures of hangar 6 and
11 given the conditions as described by the Prosecution
12 witnesses, and the fact that other witnesses both for
13 the Prosecution and the Defence, have described the
14 summer of 1992 as a hot summer, what would it have been
15 like in that hangar when you had 200, 250 people jammed
16 in there? What would it do to temperature and
18 A. The temperature outside is usually less than
19 inside, particularly when there are many people crowded
20 in one place. Under the circumstances, the people
21 sweat more, they need more water than usual, and there
22 is always a potential that some of the three degrees of
23 heat related disease can come. Sometimes the first
24 degree is exertion. The other extreme in degree that
25 can kill is heat stroke, and in between, a situation
1 where the high temperature, particularly when there is
2 not sufficient water supply, can come. Exertion is, by
3 large, the most frequent situation. Heat stroke has
4 the potential to kill.
5 Q. Describe for the judges what causes heat
6 stroke and what its effect is on the human body.
7 A. If the environmental temperature is too high,
8 and if the person doesn't have adequate fluids, there
9 is a point where the temperature control of the
10 organism is lost. So what is established is a very,
11 very high, uncontrollable temperature, and that
12 temperature, after 100, 2, 3, 4, 5, 106 --
13 Q. That's temperature Fahrenheit?
14 A. Fahrenheit, yes. Fahrenheit.
15 Q. That would be about how many Celcius, doctor,
16 how many degrees Celcius?
17 A. Well, the body temperature for the human is
18 37 in Centigrade, but the scale, when it come 41, 40,
19 but maintained for a certain time, then the person who
20 is going to have heat stroke and that, the temperature
21 is not controllable any more, that temperature, 42 or
22 106 in Fahrenheit.
23 Q. And given the amount of water that the
24 Prosecution witnesses testified that they were given
25 access to during the period of May, June, July, August
1 of 1992, do you have an opinion, based on all
2 reasonable medical probability, of the chances of heat
3 stroke of the people being confined in hangar 6?
4 A. Considering that heat stroke is a maximum
5 expression of that -- or the result of being under high
6 temperature, environmental high temperature and not
7 adequate fluid supply, it's an extreme situation, but
8 in the middle or below that to the most benign
9 situation, exertion, because of the temperature, I
10 would suspect under the circumstances more problems
11 with the temperature.
12 Q. Did you, for instance, in your practice in
13 Houston in the Medical Examiner's Office, did you see
14 heat stroke on occasion?
15 A. Many times.
16 Q. And what kinds of things would cause heat
17 stroke -- because, before they got to you they were
18 dead. Sufficient to cause death?
19 A. My experience was that most of them came up
20 working under the sun in construction areas, and those
21 working in the attics, of course always in summer
22 time. Those are the two more frequent cases. People
23 in the attic, working in the attic and those working in
24 the outside, particularly in construction, or in the
1 Q. And given the conditions in the Celebici
2 camp, as described by the Prosecution witnesses, would
3 you have expected to see numerous cases of heat stroke?
4 A. Well, if not numerous, I could expect to have
5 some people with real, real problems about the
6 environmental temperature. I would expect that, yes,
8 Q. Now, let me tie this lack of water in with
9 the sanitary conditions in the camp, as described by
10 the Prosecution witnesses. The way they described
11 dirty water, water with pieces of faeces in it, all
12 sharing the same eating utensils, living -- even
13 sitting in human waste. Would that likely cause
14 diseases that would increase the amount of dehydration?
15 A. Yes, they can.
16 Q. What kind of diseases are we talking about,
18 A. Well, under the circumstances, infectious
19 disease, either in the skin, particularly in the area
20 that has been contused or lacerated, are more prone to
21 be infected. Also, diarrhoea is another complication
22 that you expect. And, of course, there is also all
23 kinds of contaminations, infections, by oral way with
24 the food.
25 Q. Doctor, would this diarrhoea that you just
1 talked about, would that have an effect on the amount
2 of dehydration when you add it to the lack of drinking
4 A. Yes. On these circumstances diarrhoea
5 produce some effects under ordinary circumstances, but
6 when the circumstances are adverse, like in this case,
7 the situation is worse.
8 Q. Would you expect the combination of the heat
9 and the diarrhoea, that you would expect, based on the
10 contamination and dirty living conditions, to cause
11 death or serious illness to those inmates?
12 A. Yes, because it is multi-factoral.
13 Q. In all reasonable medical probability, are we
14 talking about a substantial number of deaths based just
15 solely on disease?
16 A. Yes. Situation when the life threatening
17 conditions are very, very probable.
18 Q. Now, if the witnesses for the Prosecution are
19 accurately describing in the conditions in the camp,
20 and if there were approximately 250 people in that
21 hangar, and if you'd like I can show you pictures of
22 the interior of the hangar, and are we talking about --
23 well, how many deaths, roughly, would we expect, based
24 on dehydration and heat stroke, solely due to the lack
25 of clean drinking water and the resulting diseases? Do
1 you have any idea?
2 A. Well, I cannot go on statistical data at this
4 Q. Sure.
5 A. But a rough estimate of the amount of people
6 there, the circumstances that is reflected in the
7 testimonies, that I would expect more problems, more
8 lacerations, more infections, more gastro-intestinal
9 disturbances, and probably more that.
10 Q. By the way, doctor, I think it's in the --
11 I'm sure it is in the excerpts that you have. One of
12 the witnesses for the Prosecution testified that he did
13 not have a bowel movement for 13 days and that there
14 were others who did not have bowel movements for 40
15 days while they were confined in the Celebici prison.
16 Given the conditions as described by the Prosecution,
17 in all reasonable medical probability, is that
19 A. The 13 days is perfectly acceptable, under
20 the circumstances that these persons were. Forty days,
21 I have no information of any case of forty days. But
22 as I said before, the human body has a -- sometimes an
23 unbelievable resistance for life. I wouldn't be
24 reluctant to accept 40 days without bowel movement.
25 But it would be very unusual.
1 Q. Well, let's talk about the human body being
2 tough. We are tough creatures. The good lord made us
3 pretty tough. Your Honour, did you have a question?
4 I'm sorry, I thought you had a question.
5 But, on the other hand, sometimes, seemingly,
6 minor things can cause serious bodily injury or death,
7 can't they?
8 A. Sometimes, yes.
9 Q. And that would vary, I suspect, somewhat on
10 the age of the person and the general health of the
11 person, and it would probably also -- is that correct,
12 doctor? Am I correct in that assumption?
13 A. Yes, it is correct. We have two extremes,
14 the elderly and the children. They are more liable
15 than anybody else. In the middle are the most
16 resistant people.
17 Q. And how about the availability of medical
18 care? Is that --
19 A. It's critical.
20 Q. So, for instance, if there is a good trauma
21 facility available, a person might survive an injury,
22 where if there is little or no medical care, he might
24 A. Absolutely.
25 Q. Describe for the judges what you are basing
1 your opinion on when I talk about the food supply for
2 the inmates?
3 A. The food supply that I read in the different
4 testimonies are very, very negligible, very little, in
5 terms of calories, proteins, carbohydrates and fats.
6 Everything is very, very low. You expect that
7 situation like this maintained for more than 30 days
8 will produce a very significant decrease in the body
10 Q. Would it likely, standing alone, lead to
11 death or serious illness over a period of, say, the end
12 of May through the end of July?
13 A. Three months.
14 Q. Three months.
15 A. Three months, under these circumstances,
16 again I will expect more serious complications
17 associated with low nutrition level.
18 Q. Now, doctor, would you put all of this
19 together for us, the lack of clean water, the fact that
20 it was dirty water, the temperature, the filthy living
21 conditions that are described by the Prosecution
22 witnesses, the poor diet, and setting aside any
23 allegations of trauma at all, what would you expect
24 would be the result of confinement under the
25 circumstances described by the witnesses for the
1 Prosecutor over that about two- to three-month period?
2 A. Nutrition problems and infections mostly.
3 Q. What would the people look like?
4 A. Very thin, very -- people that obviously are
6 Q. You've seen pictures of survivors of
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Would they look like that?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. Is that a yes, doctor?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. Now, let's add in some of the other things
14 that the Prosecution witnesses talked about. They
15 talked about -- let's start with blunt trauma. And for
16 that I would ask that the doctor be shown Defence
17 Exhibit, I believe it's 6-3. Doctor, you are from
18 Cuba, and I think this has something to do with one of
19 your national sports, so you are familiar with these
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. That's fine, thank you. And, doctor,
23 have you seen the results of being beaten with one of
24 those things on the human body?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. On healthy people, people that were
2 previously healthy?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And how many of those did you see on your
5 autopsy table?
6 A. I don't remember, but probably I have seen
7 several that a baseball bat was used, and I never did
8 know, because I have been -- I have seen many, many
9 blunt traumas, that in all kind of circumstances, and
10 sometimes some -- several objects have been used. But
11 in two or three occasions the situation of baseball bat
12 specifically was brought to my attention. Two or three
13 blows in the head with fractured skulls.
14 Q. And if someone is hit with a baseball bat,
15 one or two or three times, not necessarily in the head,
16 but in other parts of the body, is that likely to cause
17 severe injury?
18 A. Severe, yes.
19 Q. And -- well, for instance, let me describe
20 something that's in the document. I can tell you the
21 page number. Your Honour, the page number I am going
22 to refer to this is the page number, not of the
23 transcript, but at the bottom of the transcript
24 excerpts. And on page, I believe, it's 30 and 31, one
25 of the witnesses for the Prosecution says he was hit
1 across the back with a baseball bat about 30 times and
2 had some broken ribs. Doctor, if someone were hit with
3 a baseball bat across the back 30 times, how serious,
4 in your opinion, would the injury be?
5 A. Everything depends how much force the person
6 that is inflicting those injuries put on the bat. It's
7 not necessary to put too much force on a baseball bat.
8 If you take the baseball bat for it's usual part, it's
9 not necessary to put too much force in order to inflict
10 a serious injury. Of course, you were talking about
11 the back. We can have 30, with more -- you can afford
12 that but not in the head.
13 Q. Now, our back has, among other things, ribs
14 and the spine in it?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. If one were hit very hard across the back
17 with a baseball bat, would there be a chance of injury
18 to the spine?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How good -- how likely would it be that there
21 would be some injury to the spine?
22 A. Very likely.
23 Q. And given the kinds of injuries we are
24 talking about, what would be the likelihood of -- well,
25 what likely would be the type of injury we are talking
1 about? Someone in a wheelchair?
2 A. Contusions, as most of the time, baseball bat
3 usually do not produce lacerations unless in the --
4 beneath the soft tissue, there is a bone, a resistant
5 plane. In that case the laceration is very easy to be
7 JUDGE JAN: The skin is stretched -- the skin
8 is stretched (Microphone, please, Your Honour)?
9 A. Exactly. In the case of the head, it's very
10 easy to produce a laceration because the resistance of
11 the cranium beneath is easily tear by the blow. But in
12 other parts of the body the contusions are the
13 predominant lesions. But the ribs, if beings hit by
14 the baseball bat, can be fractured with relative ease.
15 MR. MORAN:
16 Q. How about the spine?
17 A. Well, the spine is more protected than the
18 ribs, because the ribs come lateralise and protrude
19 more than the spine. The spine remain a little bit
20 hidden and covered by abundant muscles around it. It's
21 more protected. But it can be damaged and fractured
23 Q. If there were regular beatings with a
24 baseball bat across the back by people who were in the
25 living conditions that you've described, and the
1 Prosecution witnesses swore were correct, if there --
2 if every time I went outside to urinate I got hit
3 across the back with baseball bat a couple of times,
4 and if it was done to everybody, every one of these 250
5 people, would it be likely or unlikely that someone
6 would be unlucky enough to have a severe enough spinal
7 injury to cause paralysis, permanent paralysis?
8 A. Well, the paralysis represent -- it can come
9 directly or indirectly associated with a trauma,
10 because the paralysis can come by damage to the spine,
11 but this damage may be associated with haematomas in
12 the spinal canal and may produce paralysis without the
13 bone being fractured, let's say. That is the
14 situation. But with a baseball bat, beating people in
15 the back, or lateral chest, the most frequent
16 complication bones are concerned, is fractured ribs.
17 Q. And if those fractured ribs are not treated,
18 given the living conditions described by the witnesses
19 for the Prosecutor, what's the likely medical outcome?
20 Will they eventually just heal themselves or will there
21 be internal injuries or could it vary?
22 A. The ribs, because they usually remain in
23 contact, the broken part, the two segment, the proximal
24 and the distal segments usually are more or less in
25 contact. They can heal spontaneously with time. The
1 ribs are healed like the bones of the upper extremities
2 faster than the bones in the lower extremities. So
3 they can heal and many rib fractures do not require a
4 specific orthopaedic devices. Of course, any fracture
5 can be subject to infection, osteomyelitis. And that
6 is another complication, post-trauma.
7 Q. Could one, given the physical conditions of
8 the camp, if there were lots of beatings like this, one
9 would expect lots of broken bones?
10 A. Oh, yes.
11 Q. And given the fact that there are lots of
12 broken bones that are not being treated, either no
13 medical care or poor medical care, in all reasonable
14 medical probability how many cases -- well, how many is
15 a big word -- would you expect to see a substantial
16 number of cases of osteomyelitis?
17 A. Well, at least when the fracture is produced,
18 the healing begins almost immediately. What you see is
19 the callous, that is the point of healing is very
20 regular and very big, mostly -- osteomyelitis is a
21 possibility. Every time you fracture a bone,
22 osteomyelitis might be a complication. But under the
23 circumstances I would expect a little bit of
24 osteomyelitis. I don't know. I cannot go on a
25 statistical -- it's in general.
1 Q. Sure. And given the number of beatings --
2 well, first, let me back off a second. Tell the judges
3 the difference between what we call a simple fracture
4 and what we call a compound fracture.
5 A. If somebody hit me in this arm, for instance,
6 and the blow is sufficient to fracture my bone in the
7 arm, let's say one only, and the two pieces of bone
8 remained in position without any deviation either from
9 the distal part or the proximal part, and the situation
10 is that the bone stayed there, and the line of fracture
11 is, say, a thin line of fracture that is there without
12 any irregularities, we call that simple fracture.
13 Compound fractures means that the blow brings a
14 separation of the proximal segment with the distal
15 segment. Then this is done at the expenses of
16 additional injuries to the soft tissues around the
17 bone, because after the blow you have the contraction
18 of the muscles that come in and out or around the bone,
19 that they will pull one side or the other and make the
20 healing more difficult. And that's why the compound
21 fracture sometimes require open surgery. When the
22 fracture is not compound, the possibilities for
23 infections are very nil, non-significant. The compound
24 fracture are more subject to complications,
25 particularly infections.
1 Q. Doctor, is it common or uncommon in the case
2 of a compound fracture of -- pick a bone, any bone --
3 for the bone, my arm, if I have a compound fracture of
4 my lower arm, would it be common or uncommon for the
5 bone to come through the skin?
6 A. Everything depends upon the force. When you
7 deal with motor-vehicle accidents and accidental
8 industrial death, you can see that very, very much.
9 They stick out from the inside.
10 Q. Sure. Now, would the trauma that's -- that's
11 described by these witnesses for the Prosecution in
12 their testimony, would that be fairly similar to an
13 automobile accident or an industrial accident or is it
14 anything that --
15 A. In trauma, with motor-vehicle accident you
16 have the extreme, and many, many types of trauma
17 because the car turn over several times, because the
18 body was thrown from the vehicle. The primary impact
19 brings more serious lacerations and fractures. But
20 later on secondary trauma can produce minor things.
21 But in this type of punishment, when you put the people
22 against a wall and you ask to raise the hands and hit
23 in the back, you don't expect those extremely -- the
24 bones to stick out from the body. Fractures there, a
25 little bit deviation is possible, or the cheek to cheek
1 approach of both parts of the bone, fine. Much, much
2 less. The intensity is much, much less.
3 Q. By the way, one question I am going to ask,
4 because, frankly, because Judge Jan, before you came
5 here, mentioned something about he didn't need a
6 physician to tell him if you get hit 200 to 250 times
7 with a baseball bat, you are going to have severe
8 injuries. But one of the witnesses for the Prosecutor
9 testified that by count he was hit more than 200 times
10 with that baseball bat up and down this side of his
11 body. In all reasonable medical probability, doctor,
12 what would be the result of a beating like that?
13 MS. McHENRY: Could counsel just please tell
14 me what he is referring to, what page in the doctor's
16 MR. MORAN: Sure. It was testimony of Mirko
17 Dordic and I believe on the material it's on page 33
18 and 35.
19 Just so the record is clear, I think Ms.
20 McHenry may have been the lawyer that asked the
21 question that brought about that response.
22 Q. Anyhow, doctor, what kind of injuries would
23 one expect if you were hit 200, 250 times with a
24 baseball bat, real hard?
25 A. This part from the --
1 Q. Down the side.
2 A. From the waist?
3 Q. From about the armpit down to about the
5 A. Well, the possibility of rib fractures is --
6 both sides, 270 times?
7 Q. No, between 200 and 250 times on one side of
8 the body?
9 A. On one side of the body? All on one side?
10 Q. Yes, doctor.
11 A. Rib fractures will be expected, of course.
12 The rest of the injuries, because it's an area that is
13 covered by abundant muscle, particularly thigh and the
14 -- around the waist, everything depends on the frame
15 of the individual, of the victim.
16 Q. How about if he's been starving?
17 A. And intensity.
18 Q. How about if he's been starving and filthy
19 living conditions with little or no -- with little
20 drinking water, none of it clean?
21 A. Oh, in that case, that person, I don't think
22 is in the position or in the situation that afford that
23 many trauma. That is -- that would devastating for
24 that person under that circumstance.
25 Q. So in all reasonable medical probability that
1 person would not come up four years later and testify
2 in a Court about his injuries?
3 A. It's a very, very unlikely that a person can
4 afford that many blows.
5 Q. Doctor, while I am thinking about it, when
6 you get multiple hits with something and, as you'll
7 recall, there is descriptions of things, other than
8 baseball bats, that were used to hit people, there were
9 shovel handles, pickaxes, pipes, rifle butts that the
10 Prosecution witnesses said were used to hit them. Let
11 me give you a hypothetical situation. That someone is
12 hit -- is being hit with one of these objects, pick one
13 of them, a lead pipe, a piece of pipe, and I keep
14 hitting. Is it likely that one of the early blows
15 would, say, fracture a rib?
16 A. Any one can do a fractured rib.
17 Q. So the very first one could fracture a rib?
18 A. Oh, yes.
19 Q. What would happen if I hit him on the same
20 place, where that fractured rib was, hit him again with
21 had a lead pipe?
22 A. Well, in that case the chances come and come
23 and come and the greater the number of blows, the
24 greater the chance for fractured rib, yes.
25 Q. And would -- if I fractured a rib the first
1 time, is it possible that the second blow could cause
2 the rib to, per chance, pierce an internal organ?
3 A. It's very difficult to know under these
4 circumstances which blow inflicted the fracture. But
5 there is one thing, after the rib was fractured and
6 more blows come to the same area, the pain will be
7 terrible and the swelling and the inflammation and the
8 possibilities for infection will increase tremendously.
9 Q. Doctor, let's talk for a second about blunt
10 trauma caused by rifle butts. I think you described
11 them to me yesterday, that there's a difference in the
12 type of injury that's likely to be caused by a rifle
13 butt, depending upon how someone is hit with it, how
14 the rifle is used. Would you describe that to the
15 members of the Trial Chamber.
16 A. Yes. We are talking about rifle butts?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Not bar. You see, as you know, the lateral
19 surface of the butt are very smooth, and sometimes the
20 soldiers -- this is not related to my practice as a
21 medical examiner. We have no of those cases in
23 Q. Excuse me a second. Let's be up front with
24 the members of the Trial Chamber. You served as an
25 officer in the military of Cuba and had military
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is this what you are basing your opinion on?
4 A. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. And seeing many news that when the people get
7 hit, the blow that is inflicted with rifle butt, like
8 this, lateral blow, is very different when the people
9 or the soldier take the rifle and do like this. This
10 one is a tremendous penetrating power and tremendous
11 potential to produce internal damage. Although, you
12 see not too much outside. But the other one, which is
13 lateralised, is a more gentle, if I may say so, blow.
14 Q. When you say gentle, it's not a gentle hug
15 like you would give your child?
16 A. Exactly. Less penetrating.
17 Q. Now, if someone were leaning up against a
18 wall like this, or laying on the ground and were being
19 beaten with a rifle butt, which way would it be more
20 likely that they would be hit, if you know? If you
21 have any kind of an opinion on that?
22 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I am going to
23 object to this. I didn't object to the previous
24 questions, although I am not sure they are within his
25 expertise. But I certainly don't think this is within
1 his expertise. Which way would it be more likely that
2 a soldier beating someone with his hands against the
3 arm would hit it. I would object to that.
4 JUDGE JAN: There is substance in what she
6 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. I'll just
7 withdraw that question. The Trial Chamber can draw its
8 own conclusions.
9 Q. Doctor, if someone is beaten with a shovel or
10 a shovel handle sufficient to break that wooden handle
11 in the area between, say, the waist and the knees, so
12 including the thighs, would it be likely or unlikely
13 that one would have a broken thigh?
14 A. It may, yes.
15 Q. And presume that the person who is being
16 beaten was living in the conditions described by the
17 witnesses for the Prosecution, would that make it more
18 or less likely, that one would have a broken thigh?
19 A. Well, it's sufficient as to produce a broken
20 thigh. Everything depends also how hard is that piece
21 of wood, and the complexion of some victims. Because
22 some victims are real, real strong with powerful
23 muscles and they are protected, but there is another
24 possibility that although you don't see too much
25 outside, the trauma, this time of trauma that you ask
1 me is serious, is very, very strong, it can cause
2 internal haemorrhages that you are not able to see.
3 That can happen.
4 Q. Okay. Would one expect to see those kinds of
5 injuries in people who were living in the kinds of
6 conditions described by the witnesses for the
8 A. Well, the external evidence is always there.
9 The internal evidence, if any, be it a fracture or a
10 haematoma inside the pelvic or the abdominal cavity,
11 you cannot see that from the outside. For the
12 fractures you need the x-ray.
13 Q. Let's talk about head injuries for a minute.
14 When a person is beaten in the head with fists, rifle
15 butts, electric cables, or has his head jammed into
16 concrete, presuming it's not sufficient to just crush
17 his head and have horrible fractures, so there is no
18 visible wounds, or maybe just visible laceration or
19 something like that. But we are not talking about a
20 crushed skull. What kinds of injuries is that likely
21 to cause?
22 MS. McHENRY: Assuming that this is not a
23 pure hypothetical, I just ask Defence counsel to tell
24 me what section of the material.
25 MR. MORAN: It's a pure hypothetical.
1 MS. McHENRY: If it's a pure hypothetical, I
2 object as to relevancy.
3 MR. MORAN: Okay. Your Honour, I would
4 recommend that the Prosecutor look at pages 120 and 124
5 of the documents that I gave her.
6 Q. Doctor, on those pages, a witness whose name
7 is R, testified that when they arrived at the camp they
8 were beaten?
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which page?
10 MR. MORAN: 120 and 124 is what my notes
11 show, Your Honours.
12 Q. And this witness, Witness R, describes on
13 page 120 of the documents that you were given -- by the
14 way, doctor, if you look behind you, you will see a
15 model of the camp. And the wall we are talking about
16 is that concrete retaining wall right next to the
17 gatehouse there, if that has any effect on your
18 opinion. And this witness, this Witness R testified
19 about beatings, when they arrived at the camp, and he
20 said, and I am going to skip some areas, but I'm going
21 to read you what he said. And this is going to be on
22 page 7683 of the official transcript -- 7683 and 84.
23 This beating affected all parts of the body. I
24 personally got the strongest blows at the back of my
25 head, also in the kidney areas. The injuries inflicted
1 by the blows with foreheads against the wall were
2 frequently as serious as those inflicted at the back of
3 the head because the forehead hit against the wall
4 every time.
5 He further describes that he fainted twice
6 during the beatings. One of the guards "hit me with
7 his rifle here across the head" he indicated in the
8 record. He doesn't say exactly where it was. And he
9 further went on to say that this lasted for about 30 --
10 this is on page 124 of my notes. That it went on for
11 about 30 to 35 minutes. They were beat with objects
12 that were at hand and at foot, boots, beaten along the
13 genitals, to the back of the heads, hit with rifle
14 barrels and butts, both sides. And he says, also, they
15 were beaten with pickaxes, with shovels, any other
16 objects that were around the camp, because there was a
17 warehouse, and they were also beaten with chains,
18 cables and intertwine cables.
19 Doctor, let's just focus on the kinds of head
20 injuries that this person described, Witness R
21 described. If one's head is hit in a way that's not
22 sufficient to crack the skull or fracture the skull,
23 what happens to the bone -- excuse me, to the brain?
24 A. The cranial cavity or the cranial cephalic
25 complex poses a very particular field in relation to
1 trauma. In the absence of fractures of the skull, what
2 happen is that when there is a fracture, let's begin
3 with a fracture, when there is a fracture upon a blow,
4 that means that the forces has been -- most of the
5 forces inflicted by the blunt object have dissipated in
6 the skull, in the bone. When there is not a fracture,
7 the blow is transmitted toward the brain producing
8 something that you cannot see even with a microscope.
9 Concussion of the brain. Concussion, not contusion of
10 the brain. Contusion of the brain is like a contusion
11 in the skin. You see the haemorrhage, you see the
12 swelling, and you see the discoloration. Concussion
13 means an effect of vibration inside the brain system
14 that can cause unconsciousness or dizziness or, in some
15 cases of blast injury, when there is a bomb that
16 explode, the wave will produce a vibration that can
17 kill you, blast injury. So that's what happened to the
18 brain when there is no fracture of the skull. The
19 forces are dissipated in the brain tissue, produces a
21 Q. Doctor, given the description that I just
22 read you, would it be likely or unlikely that Witness R
23 suffered a concussion of the brain at that point?
24 A. Concussion as a rule, no question.
25 Q. Now, if it's treated, does it -- or
1 untreated, does that make any difference in the
3 A. This is something that the brain put the
4 things again in place. If not, it's because there was
5 an exonic injury. That is another thing, acute exonic
6 injury can kill you in very short time, in 12 hours.
7 But if nobody was dead in the next few hours of that
8 concussion as a rule, and that comes to the --
9 everything comes to the brain again, the connections
10 between the neuron cells, they come in the normal
11 fashion without any treatment. It's a matter of time.
12 Q. Okay. Now, would trauma like that described
13 by Witness R -- presuming it happened to several people
14 at the same time, similar types of abuse, is it likely
15 or unlikely that some of those people would suffer,
16 say, a fractured skull?
17 A. It's possible to see fractured skull.
18 Sometimes we can see signals in the outside that we
19 know that there is a fracture of the skull, although we
20 don't have an x-ray. For instance, if they see that
21 there is a swelling in the mastoid area, left or right,
22 and there was a bluish black discoloration and
23 swelling in the mastoid area without any contusion,
24 without any laceration in that area, I know that there
25 is a fracture in the right temporal bone. Likewise, if
1 I see that there is haemorrhage coming up from the ear
2 canals, I know, without doing the x-ray, I make the
3 assumption that there is a fracture of the temporal
5 Q. Given the description that Witness R gave of
6 this abuse, would it be likely or unlikely that someone
7 would suffer a fracture to their skull?
8 A. Both are possible, with or without fracture.
9 All depends upon how the blow was inflicted, because if
10 you have the head against the wall, and you hit me
11 right in the opposite pole of that contact with the
12 wall, the possibilities of fracture will increase. But
13 if the blows are inflicted not in that line, then the
14 possibilities of fracture will decrease.
15 Q. Well, if I am hit on the back of the head and
16 that drives my head into the wall.
17 A. In that case, the fracture is more likely to
18 be produced than not. Again, the fractures can be
19 simple or may be compound. But the question in the
20 brain is not that the fractures are simple or
21 compound. It's the association, internal bleeding,
22 either by epidural haematoma or subdural haematoma that
23 is the real, real serious complication.
24 Q. Well, you can have a subdural haematoma even
25 without a fracture of the skull, can't you?
1 A. Subdural haematoma may or may not be
2 traumatic, epidural haematoma is always traumatic in
4 Q. Tell the judges what subdural and epidural
5 haematoma are?
6 A. Well, let's say that I have a needle and I
7 put the needle over here and trespass the scalp. After
8 that the needle will perforate my bone. Then, after
9 the bone is the dura matter. Between the Dura matter
10 and the bone, normally there is not a space. When
11 there is a fracture of the skull, the blood is
12 accumulated between the inner surface of the bone and
13 the outer surface of the dura. That is epidural
14 haemorrhage or haematoma. If the needle comes and
15 perforate the dura, then it comes to the space between
16 the dura and the brain. That is subdural space with
17 subdural haemorrhage or subdural haematoma. So this
18 are the plains that occur normally. Usually the
19 fracture of the skull produce epidural haematoma
20 practically 100 percent of the cases the degree of the
21 haematoma, the degree of haemorrhage depends upon the
22 seriousness of the bomb damage.
23 Q. Without medical treatment, what is the
24 prognosis generally for a person who has a subdural or
25 epidural haematoma?
1 A. It depends upon the volume of the haematoma.
2 The haematoma in the subdural space in particular, they
3 can bleed spontaneously or they can bleed upon minor
4 trauma. It's not the case of the epidural haematoma --
5 Q. You said even minor trauma can cause a
6 subdural haematoma?
7 A. No, no. Once you produce a traumatic
8 subdural haematoma.
9 Q. I misunderstood. Thanks.
10 A. Say that the subdural haematoma is of the
11 size of three centimetres in diameter, if you are
12 quiet, if you are in bed, that can bleed as
13 spontaneously and be increase in the next hours, and
14 can kill you in the next hours.
15 Q. This is a life threatening injury?
16 A. It is.
17 Q. And it's the type of thing that requires
18 definitive medical treatment?
19 A. Well, many blows under these circumstances
20 not producing sufficient fractures, sufficient
21 haemorrhage in the epidural or subdural space without
22 fracture. They can cure as spontaneously.
23 Q. Or they can cause death?
24 A. Oh, yes.
25 Q. Doctor, given the types and amounts of
1 injuries that you read about in the material, that's
2 the testimony of the Prosecution witnesses, would you
3 expect -- would you have expected to see serious head
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Would you have expected to see life
7 threatening head injuries?
8 A. At least life threatening complications from
9 the injuries.
10 Q. When you say life threatening complications,
11 would -- those would be the things --
12 A. Either by infection or either by the
13 consequences of the trauma.
14 Q. And given the conditions in the camp and the
15 lack of medical care, would you expect in all
16 reasonable medical probability that there would have
17 been a significant number of either serious injuries or
19 A. It's a logical estimation, yes.
20 Q. Okay. One of the things Witness R said, and
21 I will just read it to you word for word, because I am
22 not real sure what he meant, but we'll -- he says, "I
23 also know that --"
24 MS. McHENRY: May I just please have the page
1 MR. MORAN: 124. It's page 7690 of the
2 transcript, lines 13 through 16. He says, "I also know
3 that people were beaten with pickaxes, with shovels,
4 any other objects that were around the camp."
5 Q. If someone is hit with a pickaxe, what's that
6 likely to do to him?
7 A. That's a trauma similar to baseball bat. The
8 difference is that this is a little bit more
9 flattened. It depends upon, if you put the thin
10 portion in contact with the skin, then the penetrating
11 effect of the blow is more serious than if you put it
12 rather flat against --
13 Q. Basically, it's a matter of physics, that the
14 narrower the area is, the more concentrated the energy
15 is transmitted?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, let's change subjects for a second.
18 Let's talk about burns. Burns caused by -- let's start
19 with flammable liquids, gasoline. What are the general
20 types of burns that one sees?
21 A. There are three types of burns. The first
22 degree burn is associated with hyperemesis, skin
23 becomes red and swelling. The second degree burn is
24 associated with blistering formation. Blistering
25 formation, the blisters can be infected and release
1 outside and usually do not pose a rather serious
2 infection. The third degree burns is when the skin,
3 the subcutaneous tissue, and even the muscles, and even
4 the bones can be involved. And there is more serious
5 consequences, mainly in the area of infection in the
6 third degree burns.
7 Q. Okay. And you can get infections in second
8 degree burns also, can't you?
9 A. Yes, but they are usually superficial.
10 Q. Okay. How about if one is living in
11 absolutely filthy living conditions?
12 A. Well, the chance for infection are more
13 prone, more possible. The possibilities, the
14 probability of infection increases.
15 Q. How about if there's no treatment?
16 A. First and second degrees can cure as
17 spontaneously. Third degree usually require treatment.
18 Q. How about if there's treatment like, for
19 instance, and I am referring to page 179 of the notes,
20 that the treatment would be the people -- that people
21 put tooth paste on a burn, an open burn. What would --
22 what's that going to do?
23 A. Toothpaste for burns, first and second, are
24 -- they are a good choice. They relieve the pain and
25 they reduce the inflammation at the same time.
1 Q. Now, if someone pours gasoline all over my
2 legs and lights it off and it burns for, say, 15, 20,
3 30 seconds, in all reasonable medical probability, what
4 kind of injuries am I going to suffer?
5 A. That has to come up with third degree.
6 Q. Now, third degree burn, that's where the skin
7 is charred?
8 A. Skin, subcutaneous tissue and muscles and
9 sometimes the bone.
10 Q. And --
11 MS. McHENRY: I am not objecting. I am just
12 wondering if counsel can tell me what section he is
13 referring to also.
14 MR. MORAN: Let's start with pages 179
15 through 80 of my notes.
16 Q. This is page 180. If someone described a
17 burn as a very bad burn, it looked like pine bark, it
18 was black, the wound was black and covered with blood.
19 Would that, in all likelihood, be a third degree burn?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And if a person had a third degree burn which
22 was caused by gasoline, and was living in those
23 horrible living conditions that the Prosecution
24 witnesses described, and the only treatment was some
25 ointments that were put on the wound a few days later,
1 not immediately but a few days later, what is the
2 result likely to be? Let's start off with, would there
3 be infection, in all medical probability?
4 A. The infection is automatic in third degree
5 burns. They are infected from the beginning. If we
6 are talking about a gasoline spread in the skin and set
7 on fire and the skin and the subcutaneous tissue were
8 only involved in the depth of the burn, in that case,
9 even in this spontaneous cure can be expected. Of
10 course, they usually and they ideally, they usually
11 have to have treatment, medical treatment. But that
12 can be healed if the situation of hygiene in the camp
13 was so poor that the possibilities of infection and
14 that healing can linger in more than the normal, is
15 obvious. But the black discoloration and everything
16 depends upon the mix with pulse, with pus and blood.
17 Because they show haemorrhage very often. Of course,
18 there is a consequence, there is some degree of scars.
19 There is some scarring, the type of irregular scars in
20 that area. You don't go along with a third degree
21 burns, you don't go without a scar.
22 Q. Significant scarring?
23 A. Well, depends upon the depth and the area
25 Q. Would the type of medical treatment I
1 received influence the amount of scarring? For
2 instance, if I were in -- pick a great burn centre
3 hospital in America. The one you'd want to go to. If
4 I were in that hospital with third degree burns like
5 that, and I received skin grafting, would that create a
6 difference in the healing and the chance of infection
7 than if I did not have skin grafts?
8 A. Oh, yes.
9 Q. And if I did not have skin grafts over that
10 third degree burn, if I essentially had no medical
11 treatment, in filthy conditions, would the scar, in all
12 reasonable medical probability, be more massive or less
14 A. Well, the skin graft has to do with the
15 aesthetic problem. The skin graft doesn't have to do
16 with the healing. It's an aesthetic consideration.
17 The degree of scarring is a function of the -- how
18 large is the wound and how deep it is.
19 Q. Well, if it's deep enough that --
20 A. Delayed treatment brings more damage to the
22 Q. Okay. How about no treatment?
23 A. No treatment brings more chance for
24 infection, more damage to the tissue, and if the third
25 degree burn is, for instance, one inch by half an inch
1 in the beginning, without treatment, it can come to
2 become a bigger area, because the infection that settle
3 there, therein, will amplify the tissue damage. And
4 the scarring is more irregular and bigger.
5 Q. And thinking of infection, in all reasonable
6 medical probability, if someone poured gasoline all
7 over my legs and set it on fire, and the wound was --
8 there was yellow liquid pouring from my leg, that's
9 page 171, and other people said that -- well, given
10 that, and given the living conditions that were
11 described by the witnesses for the Prosecution, given
12 the amount of food, the amount of water, the
13 cleanliness of the water that were described by the
14 witnesses of the Prosecution, is it, in all reasonable
15 medical probability, likely or unlikely that a serious
16 infection would develop?
17 A. Under these circumstances, general condition
18 of the body is poor and the healing process will be
19 poor too. If those things are poor, the infections
20 take over with more intensity and more facility. It's
21 easier for the infection to be produced. Of course,
22 there are people that have particular resistance to
23 infections and they react very well.
24 Q. But they are lucky?
25 A. Yes. That is why one --
1 JUDGE JAN: Unlucky to begin with.
2 MR. MORAN: Unlucky to begin with but lucky
3 later or blessed, I guess may be a better word, later
4 in the healing process.
5 Q. Doctor, would it be likely or unlikely that
6 one of these infections could get out of control?
7 A. Third degree burns, superficial, usually they
8 are under control. Without treatment and without
9 general conditions of the entire health, any infection
10 can come out of control.
11 Q. And if an infection like that gets out of
12 control and there is no medical treatment, what likely
14 A. Well, most of the infections, complications
15 that they bring, the dangers is mainly in the lung,
16 pneumonia is one of the complications that they bring.
17 Not the only one, but there are many.
18 Q. And untreated pneumonia in a person in his
19 sixties, what's --
20 A. That prognosis is very, very serious
21 prognosis, life threatening.
22 Q. How about gangrene?
23 A. Gangrene is another possibility that --
24 particularly in the lower extremities.
25 Q. And if gangrene develops?
1 A. Well, you begin to lose the leg and later on
2 the life.
3 Q. Okay. Your Honour, this might be a good time
4 to take a break, if it's --
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. Let me get this
6 from the doctor. How long does it take an open wound
7 to develop gangrene?
8 A. Judge, that depends upon if the wound has an
9 anaerobic micro-organism from the beginning. If the
10 wound is associated with an anaerobic micro-organism,
11 then that process can start with the wound at the same
12 time. You don't see the consequences, but if you are
13 -- later, but --
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: When does it really
15 manifest itself? Because it has a manifestation
16 period. When does that notice that a wound has --
17 A. There may be a time period where the
18 manifestation of the gangrene is not catch by the naked
19 eye. That is possible. But that is very, very
20 variable, because the different people behave different
21 in fighting back infections. It's very variable. It
22 depends upon how was the wound, how dirty was the
23 wound, how deep was the wound, and the aggressivity of
24 the micro-organism responsible for the gangrene.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is it usual to observe
1 that visibly within the first one week?
2 A. Oh, yes, yes. Yes.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any injury is common to
4 that stage. One can see it?
5 A. Yes. Yes. If the person is a diabetic, that
6 situation will come up more obvious.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's a precondition.
8 A. Exactly. Exactly. You are right.
9 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, before the break,
10 can I follow up your question just a little bit, a
11 couple of minutes? It might be helpful and then we can
12 have our break.
13 Q. Doctor, on gangrene, if I have an injury to
14 my lower leg, and gangrene develops, first thing, how
15 long would it be in all likelihood that I would start
16 noticing it, if there were no medical care?
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are asking a
18 different question. The Trial Chamber will now rise.
19 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.00 p.m.
22 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
23 are still under oath.
24 MR. MORAN: May it please the Court.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed,
1 Mr. Moran.
2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, first is a matter of
3 housekeeping. I had left some pages out of your
4 volumes, just by -- of those volumes. And with the
5 help of the registry and the usher, I have four copies
6 that can just be added to the back of the book. They
7 replace pages 248 through the end.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We have been grateful
9 for some good indexing.
10 MR. MORAN: I apologise, Your Honour. It's
11 -- I don't have my secretary here and, frankly, I
12 thought I was pretty good with the computer and a word
13 processing system, and I found out I am really not. It
14 took some of the wind out of my sails about my computer
15 experience and my computer skills, and I will apologise
16 for that.
17 One other housekeeping matter that the
18 Defence lawyers have asked me to bring to the Court's
19 attention. The clock behind me shows an incorrect
20 time, and the guards and security people, when they are
21 handling the accused, operate on the correct time. So,
22 basically, the break that the Trial Chamber took was,
23 from the accused's standpoint, about ten minutes
24 shorter than you intended. So it made it difficult for
25 them, especially given the -- two of them have to
1 change floors in this building --
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we'll correct
4 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, I just wanted
5 to bring it to your attention.
6 Q. Doctor, right before we broke, there was some
7 discussion about gangrene and how long it would take
8 for it to appear. And I'd like to follow that up just
9 a little bit. If I were to have a wound similar to the
10 one that was described with the -- looking like pine
11 bark and that type of thing caused by gasoline, and I
12 were living in the living conditions similar to those
13 that were described by the witnesses for the
14 Prosecution, and if there was no medical care, about
15 how long, in your estimation, would it be before the
16 first signs of gangrene started? I know it will vary
17 from person to person, but --
18 A. It's difficult to say, because everything
19 depends on the tissues destruction, the degree of
20 infection from the beginning, because not only those
21 micro-organism producing gangrene are present, there are
22 always present. And sometimes the presence of several
23 micro-organism, one counter arrest the other. So -- but
24 the main thing is that the situation require treatment,
25 the sooner the better. But it requires a few hours or
1 perhaps one day or more.
2 Q. If there's no treatment or no -- or very
3 little treatment, what are we going to start seeing?
4 Are we going to start seeing the leg discolour, are we
5 going to smell things, are we going to -- what physical
6 manifestations would I and people around me be able to
8 A. The situations, the infection can go through
9 without gangrene and it may come with gangrene. If
10 there is a gangrene, the gangrene, the micro-organism
11 works very fast. It is very significant. And then you
12 have the discoloration, the tissue is coming black
13 little by little. And when the tissue is black, it's
14 because there is death of that tissue. We call that
15 necrosis. And the infection ensue into the area, later
16 on to the region, to the whole leg, and if you don't
17 cut the leg on time, then life is next.
18 Q. Okay. Now, doctor, if -- again using our
19 gasoline example. Is there a difference in the kinds
20 of burns if the gasoline is poured directly on my skin
21 or if the gasoline is poured on my pant leg?
22 A. Yes, there is a difference, because the
23 gasoline normally is a volatile substance. We all know
24 that. But if you pour on the clothes, and the clothes
25 get wet for a longer period of time, the longer the
1 contact, the more the chances to infiltrate the skin.
2 Q. Okay. Now, doctor, let me -- and for the
3 benefit of the Prosecution, we are looking at pages 176
4 to 77, I believe. We have some testimony from a man
5 named Nedeljko Draganic, and he describes that -- and
6 both on pages 173 and 176 and 77, describes the -- that
7 gasoline was poured on his pants, it was set on fire,
8 both his legs were burned, not allowed to put out the
9 fire, and the fire was sufficient that both of his
10 trouser legs -- "My trouser legs were completely burnt
11 out, both my legs had burnt." He further goes on to
12 say, "That after the fire a blister appeared and it
13 became infected. I was in a very bad state because of
14 all the dust around. It was full of pus all the time
15 and my leg was swollen."
16 And then the Prosecutor, who is Ms. McHenry
17 by the way, said, "How long did the leg remain in this
18 condition, infected and full of pus?" And his response
19 was, "Until I was released. I was released, I think,
20 on August 30th, in late August 30th or 31st of August."
21 And presume with me these injuries occurred
22 either in the end of June or early July. Given the
23 long-term infection and the pus all the time, what
24 would likely have been the result of that, when the
25 only treatment was starting about seven days after the
1 injury he was taken to an infirmary and the wounds were
2 cleaned slightly. And several times, we don't know how
3 often, the wounds were again cleaned. What would be
4 the likelihood of a serious infection developing from
5 that type of injury?
6 A. It sounds like an infection that is not
7 associated with gangrene, micro-organisms. It also
8 sounds that it's a battle between the local defences of
9 the patient versus the multiplication and action of the
10 micro-organism in that local area. It's like that they
11 are in a situation that one is not greater than the
12 other, and infection is maintained local, in local
13 level, without spreading from there. That's what it
14 does look like. After the treatment was began, we have
15 the situation, is this treatment the ideal one or was
16 poor. It sounds like poor treatment has been
17 administered in this case. So the infection on these
18 circumstances can linger a little bit.
19 Q. Would it likely be a serious,
20 life-threatening infection, or would it be a --
21 A. Potentially, all these infections are
22 potentially dangerous, because they are subject to
23 complications, septicaemia, endocarditis and pneumonia,
24 even the possibility to produce thrombosis or
25 thrombi in the vein legs, and these thrombi can travel
1 to the lung and produce thrombo-embolism. Complications
2 like that are possible.
3 Q. Possible or likely?
4 A. Possible. Possible. They may or may not
6 Q. Okay. Now, given the fact of the conditions
7 that were described by the witnesses for the
8 Prosecution, the food, the water, the heat, all these
9 things we talked about all morning, does these serious
10 complications become more or less likely?
11 A. More.
12 Q. A lot more or a little more?
13 A. More. One degree or the other. It depends
14 upon the natural resistance of the patient, the natural
15 abilities of the immunological system to fight back
17 Q. By the way, before I forget, during the break
18 did we discuss your testimony at all?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. Now, doctor, we discussed last night
21 burns with a fuse, a fuse being wrapped around a
22 person's body and what kind of injuries that would
23 cause. Based on your training and experience, do you
24 have any kind of opinion on what kind of injuries that
25 would cause?
1 A. Well, if this is connected and they produce
2 heat, and they are able to produce burns.
3 Q. But you have never seen this kind of thing is
4 what I am getting at?
5 A. No, I have never seen a burn related to this
6 issue, no, related to this subject.
7 Q. So it's, essentially, outside your expertise?
8 A. Well, in the -- in terms that --
9 JUDGE JAN: Not expertise, experience
10 MR. MORAN: That's right. His expertise is --
11 Judge Jan, Dr. Bellas has helped with several of my
12 clients in the penitentiary, and he's helped with a
13 couple of them on death row, so I know his experience
14 and his expertise. So you are correct, it's the
15 expertise -- experience, rather, not the expertise.
16 Q. It's outside of your experience?
17 A. I am not experienced with these metal devices
18 or whatever they are called. But, in general, the
19 situation, that it can come hot, it can come with high
20 temperature, they can produce first, second, third
21 degree burns. Everything depends how long they are in
23 Q. Let me jump to another subject. This is
24 going to be on pages 185 and 186 of the notes. Doctor,
25 this has to do with burns caused by synthetic clothing,
1 in this case a track suit made of synthetic fibre. And
2 the witness, who is Witness N, Mr. N, testified that a
3 heated knife was placed on his thigh and melted his
4 synthetic track suit. And he says there was a knife --
5 "He burnt me with a heated knife on my thighs, through
6 the track suit, which was synthetic, and while the
7 synthetic burned, the burn widened."
8 Doctor, what happens when synthetic fibres
9 become hot or burn? Does that create a different kind
10 of burn than other types of fabrics?
11 A. You burn them and they are in contact with
12 the skin. They have to produce -- they will tend to
13 produce third degree burns in a short time.
14 Q. And are these kinds of burns worse than, for
15 instance, if you were wearing a cotton pair of pants,
16 would it be different or worse than if you were wearing
17 synthetic pants?
18 A. Everything depends on the contact with. In
19 the case of synthetic fibres, they melt and they adhere
20 to the skin more than cotton, other clothing. But,
21 essentially, everything depends upon the exposure time.
22 Q. Well, suppose that the Witness N, which he
23 does say, and on page 186 of my notes, says that, "The
24 burns began to fester because in the hangar there was
25 also dust," and he says, "All this festers and it
1 started to smell and I could not --" and then he says,
2 "After that, several days, I was taken to the
3 infirmary." And he says that the doctors, "Didn't have
4 enough, so they were only able to bandage it and it
5 still hurt terribly. Then the wounds would reopen.
6 There was blood, there was haemorrhaging."
7 What kind of -- given what he had to say --
8 A. That is consistent with third degree burns,
9 with secondary infection.
10 Q. And, again, that's the kind of thing that
11 could lead to serious or even life-threatening --
12 A. It may.
13 Q. And given the conditions in the camp, would
14 it be more or less likely that these serious,
15 life-threatening --
16 A. I would say a contributing factor to the
17 infection to linger in.
18 Q. All right. And two last areas, and I think
19 we are done. Several of the witnesses -- by the way,
20 let's step back just a second. On Witness N, this man
21 who burned his leg and had this third degree burn. If
22 he were beaten regularly, would that change the likely
23 outcome, the likely prognosis for both the injuries
24 from the beating and the injuries from the burn?
25 A. It does, because beaten, particularly on a
1 daily basis, produce a kind of depression and
2 humiliation inside the -- yourself self-esteem inside,
3 and that has to do with your general health and with
4 the response to infections. It will decrease your
5 ability to fight back infections, yes.
6 Q. Okay. Now, Witness N also testifies, and
7 this is on page 18, that he was taken out and put in a
8 gas mask, and a valve was turned off so that he could
9 not get fresh air, and he was beaten. How would this
10 gas mask, where you could not get fresh air, how would
11 that effect the outcome of the beating, if at all?
12 A. Well, in this case we have -- we are dealing
13 with a potential death by asphyxia. If the mask is in
14 such a way put over the head that the air cannot come
15 in, cannot come out, you will expend the air, the
16 oxygen in that little space in a short time, I would
17 say one minute or less. If you stay with that mask
18 around your neck or your head with no air in, no air
19 out, five minutes, that is sufficient to produce
20 death. Brain cells will not allow lack of oxygen five
21 minutes. After five minutes without oxygen supply,
22 they can -- death is there. At least brain death.
23 Q. When you say brain death, what is brain
25 JUDGE JAN: Death is death.
1 MR. MORAN: But his heart may still be
2 beating, Your Honour.
3 Q. Is that correct, doctor?
4 A. Yes. The brain -- because the brain is the
5 first in line, it's the most sensible cell in the body
6 to die is the nerve cell.
7 Q. Would the fact that someone is being beaten
8 while he is being deprived of oxygen, would that change
9 the amount of time it would take for asphyxia to ensue?
10 A. The asphyxiation will be independent of the
11 blows. What happened here is that the respiration
12 will continue inside the mask. The carbon dioxide will
13 accumulate under these circumstances inside the mask
14 and, after half a minute or so, the only thing that
15 he's breathing is carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide
16 produce a kind of anaesthesia and you are in coma in a
17 short time.
18 Q. So about how long would it take, given the
19 circumstances, for unconsciousness to ensue, based just
20 on the carbon dioxide part?
21 A. The unconscious can be developed in the first
22 five minutes, not necessarily death, particularly if
23 there is any leak through the neck, that some air,
24 under these circumstances could come in, and -- but we
25 call that necrosis associated with carbon monoxide or
1 accumulation of carbon monoxide in the blood.
2 Q. I think one last thing. We may have touched
3 on it, but I want to get into it in a little bit more
4 detail. There is testimony from the witnesses, and
5 this is going to be on the new pages I just gave the
6 Court, it's going to be on pages 250 and 252. It has
7 to do with drinking water. And there was testimony
8 that not only was the drinking water short --
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which page is that?
10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, it's the -- yes,
11 Your Honour, it's pages 250 and 252. Those were the
12 ones I just provided the Trial Chamber.
13 Q. That there was testimony that the water that
14 the inmates were given was so dirty that there were
15 pieces of faeces in it, and there was also testimony
16 that the water was used by people in the neighbourhood
17 of the Celebici barracks for bathing, and because of
18 that they even found tampons in the water.
19 So given water that is so dirty that people
20 are drinking pieces of faeces, and there's also been
21 some testimony, and that would be on pages -- where is
22 it -- 247 and 48, about a filthy floor and excrement.
23 And if a spoon fell on the floor, you would have to
24 pick it up and use it to eat with. Would that kind of
25 condition likely lead to the spread of infectious
1 diseases? And I'll give a couple of examples. If you
2 have more, you are the doctor, I am not. Cholera,
3 hepatitis, that kind of thing.
4 A. Yes, it would.
5 Q. It would be introduced from the outside of
6 the camp through the water or the food?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And given the conditions that were described
9 by the witnesses for the Prosecution, would it be
10 likely or unlikely that there would be a, for lack of a
11 better term, epidemic?
12 A. The answer would be yes if, in particular, if
13 everybody there is taking the same water. If he is the
14 only one taking that type of water, the epidemic is
15 still a possibility, because there is so many people
16 crowded in a small area. But in both cases, if
17 everybody is taking that water, the possibilities of --
18 increases with time. The more the days that they are
19 taking the water, the more the chances to have any
20 serious local epidemic there.
21 Q. Let me add a couple of facts for you.
22 Presume with me for a second that in hangar 6, where
23 there is, say, 250 people, there is five spoons and
24 they all have to share the same five spoons and they
25 are all eating out of the same container. Would that
1 increase or decrease the chance of an epidemic?
2 A. It will increase, yes.
3 Q. A lot or a little?
4 A. A lot.
5 Q. And on cholera, for instance, and I am
6 asking, because I don't know, what's the incubation
7 period for cholera, roughly?
8 A. Cholera, it's about six to twelve hours.
9 Q. Okay. And hepatitis, I understand, has a
10 much longer incubation period, hepatitis A?
11 A. Hepatitis A or so-called infectious hepatitis
12 is -- requires about 40, 45 days incubation. It may be
13 a little bit short, it may be a little longer, but
14 around that.
15 Q. If these people were being starved and
16 beaten, as they described, would it be -- would it make
17 the chances of an outbreak of these kinds of infectious
18 diseases caused by the water supply that they
19 described, would it make it more or less likely?
20 A. More.
21 Q. How much more?
22 A. Significant.
23 Q. And given the conditions that they described,
24 and given that there is either no or very inadequate
25 medical care, in all reasonable medical probability,
1 doctor, would there be deaths caused by these
2 infectious diseases?
3 A. It may happen, yes.
4 Q. How many would you expect, out of about 250
6 A. Well, it's very hard for me to go on a
7 statistic, but at least serious situations, critical
8 situations, very serious and critical situation
9 stemming from this situation that you have explained,
10 will be a logical consequence. A very serious
12 Q. Would you expect to see --
13 A. Many deaths.
14 Q. Would you expect to see more than ten deaths,
15 given the conditions in the camp?
16 A. Well --
17 Q. From infectious diseases, solely.
18 A. Because between death and the first
19 manifestation of the infection, be it diarrhoea or
20 whatever, there is a gamma of situation, vomiting,
21 people that about to die. In other words, you expect a
22 gamma of abundant number of cases with serious problems
23 inside the hangar.
24 Q. Would you expect lay people, people like me,
25 who don't know anything at all about medicine, who were
1 in that hangar, to notice if someone got hepatitis or
2 if he got cholera or if he got one of these infectious
4 A. The contamination under the circumstances is
5 anywhere in the area.
6 Q. Would it be likely it would be something I
7 would notice and remember?
8 A. Excuse me?
9 Q. If I were a witness to this, if I were in
10 this building all day, every day, and there were these
11 kinds of infectious diseases going around, would it be
12 the kind of thing I would notice, I would see, as a
14 A. Well, I think that, yes, absolutely.
15 Q. You think it would be the kind of thing I
16 would remember?
17 A. You would.
18 Q. One other thing, and this is not included in
19 the excerpt, because, frankly, I found it last night on
20 the computer and then lost it again.
21 Doctor, there has been some testimony, and
22 Ms. McHenry has a copy of some of it, that a person
23 named Scepo Gotovac died, was tossed into the hangar
24 and died, and that he lay in this hangar for three
25 days. And one of the witnesses for the Prosecutor said
1 that he knew he was dead because he wasn't moving and
2 he wasn't breathing. Given the conditions that were
3 described by those Prosecution witnesses, if a person,
4 if a body were in that hangar in the summer of 1992, is
5 it likely that a lay person would notice other things,
6 besides the lack of movement and lack of breathing, to
7 indicate that someone was dead?
8 A. Three days?
9 Q. Three days. Make it two. Cut it down. Make
10 it two days.
11 A. This is a person that was brought
12 unconsciousness, right?
13 Q. Brought unconscious into the --
14 A. And was laying on the ground there three
16 Q. Two to three days dead.
17 A. Two to three days. Maybe he come in in a
18 deep coma with a very superficial respiration, probably
19 not real noticed by the people around him, with a very,
20 very weak cardiovascular activity, so the pulse
21 probably not be -- unless you are a physician and you
22 look for another --
23 Q. Sure.
24 A. But providing there were no physicians
25 inside --
1 Q. There were no doctors around.
2 A. He may be probably some hours in coma, and
3 there was a point that when the death come, nobody
4 notice that transaction or problem. But considering
5 that we are dealing summertime and we are in hangar and
6 the outside temperature is about 90 degrees.
7 Q. Fahrenheit?
8 A. Fahrenheit. And this is not an area that is
9 ventilated or so. If this man died upon the moment
10 that he was put in the ground, on the very moment he
11 was already dead --
12 Q. Or died shortly thereafter.
13 A. Or died shortly thereafter, say, two, three,
14 four hours, or six, at about 24 hours post-mortem period
15 there would be signals of decomposition, like swelling,
16 discoloration of the skin. And close to
17 24 hours or after 24 hours there will be a bad smell.
18 Q. Is it the kind of thing that a layman would
20 A. I think that a dead body, that anyone can
21 see, maybe an animal or a human, is noticed when it
22 decompose. But the fact of the matter is that
23 decomposition take place post-mortem much more rapidly
24 when the environmental temperature is high.
25 Q. And is it the kind of thing that somebody
1 would remember?
2 A. Yes, it would.
3 Q. And I guess I am going to go into your
4 experience as a witness as opposed to your experience
5 as a doctor. Is it the kind of thing that as a
6 witness, if you were asked how you knew someone was
7 dead, it would be the kind of thing that you would
8 remember to tell a jury or a judge?
9 MS. McHENRY: Objection, Your Honour. I
10 think those are matters for Your Honours' common sense
11 and credibility, and it's absolutely inappropriate to
12 ask this witness to testify about it.
13 MR. MORAN: I'll withdraw the question. Your
14 Honour, I pass the witness.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination of
16 this witness?
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, the Defence of
18 Mr. Zejnil Delalic has no questions for this witness.
19 Thank you.
20 MR. DURIC: The Defence of Mr. Mucic has no
21 questions for this witness either. Thank you.
22 Cross-examined by Ms. McMurrey
23 Q. I don't want to frighten Judge Jan, but my
24 desk is so much of a mess it's just easier to come with
25 a couple of papers here and be a little better
2 JUDGE JAN: I am not frightened.
3 MS. McMURREY: Okay, good.
4 JUDGE JAN: Pleasure to see you
5 cross-examining witnesses.
6 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much. Do I
7 have a few questions.
8 Q. Dr. Bellas, today was the first time you and
9 I ever had any discussions about any evidence or any
10 issues relevant to this case; isn't that true?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. And with the help of the registrar and the
13 usher, I would like to show this witness a piece of
14 evidence that was admitted, marked D2/4. I just want
15 to add about the gangrene earlier. My only experience,
16 I won't be able to question you about it, is Ernest
17 Hemmingway Mount Kilimanjaro. Now, Dr. Bellas, this is
18 a photograph of a Prosecution witness named Mirko
19 Babic, and it's a photograph of his leg. Does this
20 photograph, to you, represent what could be a burn
22 A. It seems to me that there is a superficial
23 scarring in the area. I am going to say in the upper
24 third of the portion of the leg depicted here. There
25 is an area that -- there is traces of scarring, that
1 they may be consistent with healed burns. Probably
2 superficial type of third degree burns. They don't
3 look like those scarring that are associated with deep
4 tissue destruction.
5 I also notice that around this area and still
6 below the area, and above the area, I saw areas of
7 hyperaemia. Hyperaemia, I mean reddish discoloration.
8 That seems to me not associated with that scarring. In
9 other words, this scarring is -- has the gross
10 appearance of something that this being -- healing
11 process is over.
12 Q. And the other red areas on this leg besides
13 the fact that you said it could be some kind of
14 circulatory problem of this person, is there any
15 evidence that it could be some kind of determine
16 dermatitis or some kind of eczema or some kind of skin
17 irritation that has nothing to do with a burn scar.
18 A. I cannot be 100 percent sure what is this,
19 unless I examine both legs of the patient. But it can
20 come consistent with the two situations.
21 Q. Also, if there were a burn scar, is it
22 possible, by looking at a burn scar in 1998, to
23 determine how old that scar was, or when it occurred?
24 A. No. After the healing is over, the time
25 frame cannot be established. You can say I have this
1 one year ago, it's believable. If you tell me five
2 years, it's also believable. So after the scarring is
3 finished, that stay there like there for a long time
4 without more changes.
5 Q. In fact, you could say that that scar
6 happened 20 years ago, and it could still be
7 believable, wouldn't it?
8 A. I would believe that. I am not reluctant to
10 Q. I want to ask you just a few more questions
11 about a third degree burn. Some of the results of a
12 third degree burn could be shock or fever. The body
13 can actually go into shock, can't it?
14 A. Well, the situation of fever and shock while
15 in the middle of or in the process of a third degree
16 burn is associated with the infection. The
17 micro-organism produce toxins that can drop your blood
18 pressure. Sometimes, all of a sudden it's -- shock and
19 death, rapid death. But sometimes it doesn't work that
20 way. And the fever may be associated with a local
21 infection of the area or there is another area that is
22 already with infection and we call that the primary
23 focus of infection. The other area may be a pneumonia,
24 endocarditis or some infection complication stemming
25 from the third degree wound. In other words, you don't
1 have fever, you don't have shock because you have
2 exactly the open wound called third degree burn. It's
3 the fact that the third degree burn is associated with
4 infection and infection is responsible for the shock
5 and the fever.
6 Q. Thank you. I'd like to ask the usher to take
7 this exhibit and provide it to the Trial Chamber at
8 this point. I am going to ask, just so that they
9 refresh their memory about the photograph. And I would
10 like to ask Dr. Bellas, if this witness testified,
11 which he did, that he pulled his -- he rolled his pants
12 up and then petrol was poured on his leg, that would
13 make a great difference in the type of burn that would
14 have occurred versus if the pant leg had been set on
15 fire with the pant leg down. That would be because the
16 leg is not absorbent, so once a petrol would have been
17 poured on the leg, then the petrol would have begun the
18 evaporation process, so there would not have been a
19 very long burn at that point, would there?
20 A. There is only one single application of gas,
21 gasoline over there, without pants, right. If that is
22 the only thing, I do not expect a third degree burn. I
23 would expect a third degree burn when there is more
24 time of exposure with the irritant substance and
25 subsequent infection.
1 Q. And with a pant leg down, the material in the
2 pant itself would have absorbed the petrol, which would
3 have made the burn last a lot longer, wouldn't it?
4 A. The evaporation will delay if you are dealing
5 with the cloth and then the evident substance over the
6 leg will be longer. And the time of exposure is very
7 critical in the production of burns in general.
8 Q. Thank you. At the break, at 11.30 today, I
9 asked you to look at the hand of Mr. Esad Landzo,
10 didn't I?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And when you took a look at the hand, we
13 described the kind of injury that Mr. Esad Landzo had
14 experienced in 1991. And the results that you saw of
15 Mr. Landzo just then, is this result -- is this a
16 normal result from the severing of the tendons of the
17 third, fourth and fifth digits of his right hand, would
18 you say?
19 MS. McHENRY: Okay. Before the witness
20 answers. I find this, frankly, unbelievable that
21 during the break of Court the witness is asked to look
22 at the accused and then give his expert opinion. She
23 has not indicated that this person is going to be an
24 expert witness with -- regarding Mr. Landzo's hand. We
25 certainly have no report. We don't know exactly what
1 was said to him and not said to him. So, as I told
2 Ms. McMurrey during the break, we are absolutely going
3 to object to any attempt to have this witness become an
4 expert witness about Mr. Landzo's hand.
5 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, if I may
6 respond. My response to Ms. McHenry was go ahead and
7 object, because this witness, with all of his
8 qualifications, his medical experience in the hospital
9 in Cuba, his years of medical examiner, his years of
10 being able to testify about the results, although he's
11 not here as a hand specialist, he can surely testify
12 whether this result is consistent with the kind of
13 injuries that we are talking about. I am not going to
14 ask him to form an opinion as to whether Mr. Landzo
15 could use that hand, or the extent of his use of that
16 hand. But as a doctor, a medical doctor, based on his
17 curriculum vitae, he can certainly say whether this
18 result is consistent with the kind of injury that he
19 sustained in 1991.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would the Prosecution
21 not require notice for that?
22 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am not using
23 him as an expert witness -- although he is designated
24 by this Court as an expert witness, I don't see what
25 the difference is, him talking about a hypothetical
1 situation in the Celebici barracks, versus actually
2 being able to say whether that's a necessary -- that is
3 a common result of the kind of injuries sustained. And
4 as far as a result goes --
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are still not
6 listening to my question, whether the Prosecution does
7 not require notice for this type of evidence which you
8 are trying to let him give.
9 MS. McMURREY: Well, Your Honour, they
10 received notice from Mr. Delic that he was going to be
11 here as an expert, and I am just trying to utilise the
12 expert that is on the stand right now, because of his
13 expertise in that field, I am not asking him to say
14 whether Mr. Landzo could have done that, only that it's
15 a natural result of the injury he sustained in 1991.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are still asking him
17 to give an opinion on the condition of Landzo. That's
18 what you are doing. And this accused person -- the
19 Prosecution is entitled to notice. If you want to give
20 expert evidence about accused persons, let them know.
21 And then they will have their own reaction to that.
22 MS. McMURREY: I am suffering the
23 consequences of Ms. McHenry's reaction right now. But
24 my only argument to the Court is that he is an expert,
25 he's been recognised by the Court as an expert --
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's an improper
2 answer to an objection. This is what I am saying.
3 It's not an answer to her objection. They have not
4 been notified that such evidence would be given, when
5 they are entitled to such a notice.
6 MS. McMURREY: Well, it's my submission that
7 when an expert is designated by the Court, that the
8 Prosecution should be able to draw a conclusion that,
9 while they are here, they would be asked to answer
10 questions from all four defendants, and --
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Such casual measures of
12 practice is not desirable, and there are rules which we
13 expect you to comply with. Before you introduce this
14 evidence, you better do that.
15 MS. McMURREY: All right, Your Honour, I
16 accept that I will not be able to go into that line of
17 questioning and I thank you, Dr. Bellas, for being
18 here. Muchas gracias.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination?
20 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, there will be some
21 cross-examination. After hearing the testimony, I do
22 not think it will be extensive and I will not be asking
23 for a lengthy continuation. But with respect to the
24 amount of material that we received in advance, and
25 some of the witness's specific questions, I will be
1 asking for a brief continuance before I begin my
2 cross-examination. In particular, I would be asking
3 for a continuation just until tomorrow.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. McHenry, I think you
5 are familiar with all the excerpts that we have here
6 and they are things which you have gone through and in
7 a moment's reflection you can easily remember. They
8 are your witnesses and there is nothing additional to
9 any of this. And it is on the basis of these excerpts
10 that the opinion has been sought. I don't see why it
11 should be so difficult for you.
12 MS. McHENRY: It won't be difficult. One of
13 the things though, for instance, that I might want to
14 do, Your Honour, just let me tell you, is with respect
15 to some of the excerpts, there is additional material
16 that's very relevant, including sometimes even medical
17 examinations, and I --
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We have some time
19 between now and 2.30. You might do some short work on
20 that. And let's continue with our cross-examination at
21 that time.
22 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, just for the record,
23 Dr. Bellas has met with Ms. McHenry for a short time
24 this morning, and if it doesn't interfere with either
25 of their lunches, I'm sure that Dr. Bellas would be
1 happy to meet with her again during the luncheon break,
2 if she so desires. I think we can work something out.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I'm sure -- it won't be
4 difficult. She can get it done.
5 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. I agree.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. There's nothing
7 too new or too strange in all the opinions given. I'm
8 sure you can deal with it.
9 The Trial Chamber will now rise and
10 reassemble at 2.30.
1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.50
2 --- On resuming at 2.3 5 p.m.
3 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
4 are still under oath.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, before my
6 colleague starts the cross-examination, may I address
7 you? My colleague, Eugene O'Sullivan, will not be
8 present here this afternoon. And, therefore, I would
9 like to inform you about this. Thanks very much.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
11 Yes, Mrs. McHenry, you may proceed now
12 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry
13 Q. Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Good afternoon, sir.
15 A. Good afternoon.
16 Q. As I indicated to you just right before the
17 judges came in, I found your testimony to be
18 interesting, helpful in reaching justice and not
19 controversial, so my questions will not be long and I
20 won't be asking you to repeat to anything you have
21 already testified about. What I want to do is just
22 make sure that certain conclusions I drew, from what
23 you said, are correct, and then to ask you just some
24 questions about the material that you were given access
25 to in forming your opinions. Just so you know where I
1 am going.
2 Now, sir, in response to various questions by
3 Mr. Moran, you sometimes talked about a reasonable
4 medical probability. And you explained that term in
5 the beginning of your testimony, and I don't have
6 questions about that. But I noted that in response to
7 a large number of other questions asked by Mr. Moran,
8 rather than talk about a reasonable medical
9 probability, you just said a certain -- a particular
10 result may occur or might occur.
11 Now, I understand that to mean that a result
12 may occur and it may not occur, and am I correct, then,
13 that when you use the term "may" and say that something
14 may result, you are not necessarily saying that there's
15 a medical probability that it would result?
16 A. That is correct. May or may not. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, you talked about water some,
18 and the conditions of water. Were those portions of
19 the transcript excerpts that said that conditions
20 changed about how frequently water was and was not
21 available changed, and that sometimes the prisoners
22 were allowed to keep water overnight, sometimes they
23 were not. Sometimes they were allowed one litre of
24 water per person a day, sometimes they were not. Were
25 all those portions of the transcript given to you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And with respect to the lack of water, did
3 you read anything that indicated that persons received
4 no water, or did you read excerpts that indicated that
5 persons did not receive what they considered sufficient
7 A. In some portions I read little water,
8 sometimes enough water. I consider, yes, both are
10 Q. Now, you indicated that heat exhaustion is
11 one thing that can happen as a result of insufficient
12 water, and heat stroke, which Mr. Moran asked you about
13 in great detail, is really the most severe result. Am
14 I correct that both heat exhaustion, heat stroke, as
15 well as things in between, can be the result of having
16 insufficient water?
17 A. The primary thing is the high environmental
18 temperature. That is the primary trigger that pulled
19 the trigger. Now, if under these circumstances at that
20 particular time the water supply is poor, then we have
21 more chances to develop the so-called exertion or heat
22 stroke. The possibilities increase.
23 Q. What are the symptoms of heat exhaustion?
24 A. Well, it's -- to begin with, very, say,
25 excessive sweating, difficulties in breathing, and the
1 patient filled with very, very little energy to move
2 and they -- everything comes down, shall we say. And a
3 little bit of high temperature.
4 Q. Am I correct, sir, that the fact that large
5 numbers of persons did not die of heat stroke, does not
6 mean that the persons had sufficient water for humane
7 or healthy conditions?
8 A. There are two factors that help in terms of
9 previous medical condition. Coronary heart disease or
10 any cardiovascular problem in an individual constitute
11 a factor that will favour the development of heat
12 exertion or heat stroke. But, again, the primary
13 problem is the environmental temperature.
14 Q. And similarly, sir, would you agree with me
15 that the fact that a person was not starved to death in
16 the extreme manner that the detainees in Auschwitz
17 suffered from, does not mean medically that the persons
18 are receiving adequate nutrition?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And you would agree that the fact that large
21 -- that persons lose a significant amount of weight
22 may be an indication that they are not receiving
23 adequate nutrition?
24 A. Yes. In the absence of disease, yes.
25 Q. Now, you talked about the fact that given the
1 conditions in the camp, infectious diseases -- excuse
2 me, infectious diseases were possible, and you gave
3 some examples. Did I understand you correctly that
4 diarrhoea is an example of -- can be an example of an
5 infectious disease?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Now, you also mentioned cholera as another
8 example after infectious disease and Mr. Moran asked
9 you a number of questions about cholera in particular.
10 Now, I understand that cholera is an infectious
11 disease, and given the conditions in the camp, if
12 someone had cholera, it is more likely that because of
13 conditions that the cholera would spread. My question
14 is: Am I correct that you are not stating that one
15 would expect to a reasonable medical probability that
16 there would, in fact, be a cholera epidemic in the
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Am I correct that you were provided with
20 access to numerous excerpts in the transcripts
21 indicating that large numbers of prisoners did suffer
22 from diarrhoea?
23 A. Yes, some of them had diarrhoea, yes.
24 Q. Now, again, there was a lot of discussion of
25 gangrene, and you stated that it's a possible result
1 from open cuts and burns. Now, I take it that you
2 would agree with me that there are many open wounds
3 that do not develop gangrene, and gangrene is not
4 necessarily the most likely result?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Now, you were asked about blunt trauma. And
7 I understand, with respect to individual cases, it's
8 difficult to be precise because you haven't examined
9 the patient, and, as you said, so much depends on the
10 individual resistance of a person. My question is:
11 Would you agree that the injuries likely to occur from
12 blunt trauma would depend on the force that was used?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Now, one particular case you were asked about
15 in detail by Mr. Moran concerned a Mr. Novica Dordic,
16 and I am referring counsel to pages 30 to 31 of the
17 material. Man that was beaten with a baseball bat on
18 his back area. Now, among other things, Mr. Moran
19 asked you about rib fractures. My question is, were
20 you provided access with the medical examination done
21 while Mr. Dordic was here, and it's in evidence,
22 showing that there was evidence that his ribs had been
23 fractured previously?
24 A. No, I haven't. Just the transcripts.
25 Q. And would you agree with me that if the
1 medical report, which is in evidence, showed that
2 Mr. Dordic had received rib fractures, or there was
3 evidence of prior rib fractures, there's nothing
4 inconsistent about that, in your opinion?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Again, I am going to ask about a specific.
7 Mr. Moran asked you about Witness R, and I am referring
8 to pages 120 and 124 of the material. And Witness R is
9 the person who talked about being -- he and other
10 persons were badly beaten by a wall with a variety of
11 instruments. And Mr. Moran asked you some questions
12 about whether some of the victims might be expected to
13 lose consciousness or even to experience life
14 threatening injuries. Did Mr. Moran provide you access
15 to those portions of the transcript indicating that
16 some persons did lose consciousness and, indeed, some
17 people died as a result of these beatings?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And, am I correct that there's nothing
20 inconsistent with that evidence and your opinion?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. Finally, with respect to a Mr. Scepo Gotovac,
23 who was in the hangar for two to three days and you
24 testified concerning there would be an obvious smell
25 after two days. You also indicated that he could have
1 first been in a deep coma and then slipped into death
2 without the witnesses noticing that transition. Do I
3 understand you, that you don't have information
4 indicating when Mr. Gotovac may have actually died
5 during that two-day period, two- or three-day period?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Now, you also indicated that, in your
8 opinion, about approximately how long it would take for
9 the smell to become noticeable, was based on the
10 assumption that it was about 90 degrees Fahrenheit
11 during those two to three days.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And am I correct that you have no specific
14 information about the temperature, other than that it
15 was a hot summer, and that if the temperature was less,
16 was lower, it would take longer for the smell to become
18 A. You are correct.
19 Q. And would you also agree with me that if 250
20 men were kept in a hangar with almost no change of
21 clothing, and little opportunity to bathe, there would
22 be other smells in the hangar also?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, again with respect to Nedeljko
25 Draganic. You testified about what his burn, and what
1 would have been likely, and that you would believe that
2 it was a third degree burn. Did you have access to the
3 medical report done while the witness was here and in
4 evidence, which describes Mr. Draganic's scar as
5 partially a deep second degree and partially as a third
6 degree burn wound?
7 A. No, just the transcripts.
8 Q. And would you agree that there's nothing in
9 that medical report that would be inconsistent with
10 your opinion?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. And, finally, with respect to Mirko Babic, am
13 I correct now that you were not given access to the
14 medical examination where the doctor found a scar
15 indicating a prior third degree burn and noting that
16 the -- anamnesis and examination of the scar fit very
17 well with the description of the witness of how he
18 suffered that burn? Were you given access that medical
20 A. Excuse me. I didn't -- your question is on
21 the -- how it occur or --
22 Q. No, my question is: Were you given access to
23 the medical examination --
24 A. Oh, no. No.
25 Q. Okay. And is there anything inconsistent
1 with your opinion and of the opinion of the doctor who
2 examined him here about --
3 A. No. No.
4 Q. Thank you. No further questions.
5 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, a few on
6 re-examination. Just a very, very few and I think
7 we'll be done.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the counsel,
10 JUDGE JAN: I want to ask a question. If 250
11 persons are confined in a hangar, which has only iron
12 walls, the heat outside being fairly high, the
13 temperature being fairly high, would not the person
14 inside, without little ventilation, suffer from heat
16 A. Yes, it can. The temperature inside is
17 usually higher than outside.
18 JUDGE JAN: Yes, but the 250 persons confined
19 in that place --
20 A. Absolutely.
21 JUDGE JAN: The temperature will be much
22 higher inside?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if I could follow up
25 on that for a second.
1 JUDGE JAN: You really want to follow it up?
2 MR. MORAN: I was going to get into heat
4 Q. Doctor, remember when Ms. McHenry asked you
5 about some days they received no water and maybe other
6 days they received a litre of water.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, under the conditions that were
9 described, how much water would I have to drink or
10 would a person have to drink to replace the fluids one
11 would normally lose through perspiration and other ways
12 one loses water through the day? Would it be one
13 litre, two litres, three litres?
14 A. If a person is confining daily, particularly
15 in this space, constricted area, the needs of water
16 come down a little bit because of physical activity is
17 less. The environmental temperature will increase that
18 need, but the usual fashion is for an adult not too
19 big, not too little, is about one litre a day, a litre
20 and a half, is the daily needs.
21 Q. In conditions like that?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Okay. Now, Ms. McHenry also asked you about
24 heat exhaustion and heat stroke. Aren't those
25 essentially one degree -- up the chain of the ladder,
1 if you would?
2 A. Yes. The main difference is that the heat
3 stroke represent the maximum expression of something
4 that is associated with increase of environmental
5 temperature. In heat stroke the normal control of the
6 brain toward body temperature is absolutely
7 uncontrollable. And that is finally what can kill the
9 Q. Okay. And another thing Ms. McHenry asked
10 you about was you said may occur, might occur, may not
11 or may?
12 A. May or may not, yes.
13 Q. On each one of these things that you and I
14 discussed on direct, when you say "might occur" or "may
15 occur", there is a -- and I am not going to use the
16 phrase "reasonable medical probability" because that's
17 a phrase we have defined, but on each one of those
18 things there is a reasonable probability, there is some
19 probability that's substantial that the event we
20 discussed would occur; is that fair?
21 A. More than less, yes.
22 Q. More likely than not?
23 A. More likely than.
24 Q. So --
25 A. Given the circumstances.
1 Q. So, for instance, what we just talked about
2 heat stroke, given the circumstances, it's more likely
3 than not that someone would have had a heat stroke, or
4 there would have been cases of heat stroke?
5 A. I presume that many of them have undergo to
6 the exertion and the next one that represent the more
7 serious condition, but apparently there was not any
8 other death that could be blamed to heat stroke. Heat
9 stroke is an extremely -- in general, it's rare. It's
10 not as frequent, but you need too much exposure and you
11 need to have a very significant decrease in water
13 Q. Okay. And again, when you talk about the
14 chance of infectious diseases inside the camp, it is
15 more likely than not --
16 A. Oh, yes.
17 Q. -- that there would have been some kind of
18 epidemic of some serious --
19 A. Definitely.
20 Q. And the last thing I want to ask you about
21 was they talked about Mr. Gotovac, and the man who was
22 -- two more things I want to ask you about.
23 Mr. Gotovac, the man who was deceased and the witnesses
24 have said laid there three days dead, two to three
25 days. And Ms. McHenry asked you if the temperature was
1 lower than 90 degrees, would it put off the effects of
2 decomposition. If the temperature was 85 degrees
3 Fahrenheit, how long is it going to put it off?
4 A. We consider room temperature, environmental
5 temperature under ordinary circumstances is the
6 language that the forensic pathologists use.
7 Environmental, ordinary circumstances, temperature is
8 about 70 75 degrees. Any degree --
9 Q. Fahrenheit, Your Honour. Your Honour, we are
10 still Americans. We still are old fashioned.
11 JUDGE JAN: You use a format scale.
12 MR. MORAN: And we still use miles and feet.
13 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone, please, Your Honour)
14 normally -- in order to understand.
15 MR. MORAN: I understand, Your Honour,
16 exactly. I have had to use Celcius and metres and
17 various things and I am converting in my head all of
18 the time.
19 Q. I'm sorry to have interrupted you, doctor.
20 A. See, the -- when the temperature comes up,
21 the more it comes, the more or more fast decomposition,
22 the rate of the decomposition, the greater the
23 temperature, the more rapid the decomposition rate.
24 Q. And if it was -- the effects of
25 decomposition, without going into any great detail,
1 include things other than odours, don't they?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And the body would change colours?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The body would --
6 MS. McHENRY: I think this is going beyond
7 the scope of cross-examination.
8 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, she asked if, you
9 know, smells could, from people who hadn't bathed --
10 well, I am going to leave it alone. Let me just back
12 The last thing is she asked you about a
13 medical report on a man named Dordic, and it showed rib
14 fractures. Doctor, would you open the volume next to
15 you and go to page 31. That was what was provided to
16 you, wasn't it? And on the top of page 31 there is a
17 line, number 7. It starts off answer. Would you read
18 that to the Trial Chamber.
19 A. Line number 7.
20 Q. Right up at the very top.
21 A. Answer, "Yes, on one occasion real hard, and
22 I said that in my statement, that I had a lot of
23 fractured ribs from it and I think that the medical
24 records will show that."
25 Q. And what I asked you to do, as an expert
1 witness, was to examine the testimony of the
2 Prosecution witnesses, not other things, and compare
3 that with medical science; isn't that what I asked,
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, doctor,
7 thank you very much for coming to the Hague.
8 JUDGE JAN: Doctor, I want to ask you a
9 question. Where I come from our country, Pakistan -- a
10 number of persons are confined in a place and the
11 temperature goes up, you get the feeling of
12 suffocation. Why so?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 JUDGE JAN: Why do we get that feeling?
15 A. Yes. Particularly if the humidity is high.
16 JUDGE JAN: Yes.
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE JAN: Is it lack of oxygen or what?
19 A. The respiratory tract, one of the first
20 things that the air is happened with, you inhale air,
21 is that you cool off, the air on the way down is cooled
22 off by your tissues, the sinuses, the bronchi, the
23 pharynx, so that area is going to be cooled off as it
24 comes down to the lung. When you are breathing a hot
25 air, for a long time, that will be altered in some
1 degree, depending upon the people, the state of
2 hydration, or dehydration of the individual. And then
3 under the circumstances, this is like a kind of
4 irritation to the respiratory system, and you feel
5 suffocated, yes. It's a subjective -- probably you
6 have enough oxygen, but the sensation that you receive
7 personally is not that.
8 JUDGE JAN: Thank you.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let me get this clear.
10 I know technically death is certified by a professional
11 medical doctor. To what extent can a lay person
12 determine that?
13 A. A lay person to determine this?
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
15 A. Some people recommend to take a little mirror
16 and put it over here. If there is any -- what is
17 vapours of water over the mirror, that's a good test
18 for the layman to follow, because sometimes the people
19 in coma, they have a very shallow, very superficial
20 respiration, and the activity of the cardiovascular
21 system is so little that it's -- cannot be perceived by
22 the layman. A medical doctor will go to the neck and
23 touch big arteries here, but it's difficult sometimes
24 in the circumstances that there were no professionals
25 there to establish the cause of death. On the other
1 hand, I read that the prisoners were a little bit
2 scared to go and go at once for some reason, not to
3 examine, not to go to the other people, so -- no help.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It has been the
5 contention here whether a certain person had actually
6 died at the time his fellow inmates, who are laymen,
7 thought he was dead because he was motionless over a
8 period of time, and there was no way of determining
9 whether he was alive, other than the fact that he was
10 motionless. So could a layman in certain circumstances
11 determine that a person actually has died without
12 enlisted the aid of a medical doctor?
13 A. Yes. Yes.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I
15 think those are the questions that I wanted to get
17 I think that's all we have for this witness.
18 MR. MORAN: I think so, Your Honour. I thank
19 you very much for your time today.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much, Dr.
21 Bellas, I think you are discharged.
22 A. You're welcome.
23 (The witness withdrew)
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I see Ms. Residovic is
25 on her feet. Do we have anything?
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours. We had
2 requested a medical report regarding my client,
3 Mr. Delalic, and I believe that this report will be
4 provided by the physician to the registry. However, I
5 wish to inform you that given the schedule we have for
6 the trial, it may be possible that we will work in --
7 on Friday as well, which is when Mr. Delalic has
8 further medical examination with all kinds of analysis
9 performed at that time, and we are again in the
10 situation that Mr. Delalic will not be able to attend
11 the trial. However, we have instructions that the
12 trial can go on. And further, in case that examination
13 requires further treatment, Mr. Delalic will have to go
14 on -- to go into treatment, of which we will also
15 duly inform you as the time comes.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I
17 think it's -- to carry out these medical examinations
18 and treatment as they come.
19 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, just for Ms.
20 Residovic's -- I would be shocked if our witness
21 tomorrow continued into Friday. I would be absolutely
22 shocked. So I can't -- our witness should not
23 interfere with the medical treatment and examination.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: With Mrs. McHenry
25 whether we continue beyond tomorrow.
1 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have no control
2 over that.
3 JUDGE JAN: She is very reasonable.
4 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, on that I'll claim
5 the 5th.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will
7 now rise and then reassemble at 10 a.m. tomorrow.
8 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
9 2.55 p.m., to be reconvened on the
10 9th day of July, 1998, at 10.00 a.m.