Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14363

1 Tuesday, July 14th, 1998

2 --- Upon commencing at 10.12 a.m.

3 (In open session)

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

5 gentlemen, could we have the appearances, please.

6 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honours

7 Teresa McHenry for the Prosecution, along with Mr.

8 Cowles and Mr. Huber.

9 MR. COWLES: Good morning, Your Honours.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours I

11 am Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil

12 Delalic, along with my colleague, professor Eugene

13 O'Sullivan from Canada.

14 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I am

15 Olujic appearing on behalf of Zdravko Mucic along with

16 my colleague Mr. Duric. We're both attorneys from

17 Croatia.

18 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours I

19 am Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, along with

20 Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston Texas, I appear

21 on behalf of Mr. Hasim Delic.

22 MS. McMURREY: Could morning, Your Honours I

23 am Cynthia McMurrey, and along with my co-counsel Ms.

24 Nancy Boler. We represent Esad Landzo and we're both

25 from the United States.

Page 14364

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. McHenry, you're

2 still cross-examining, are you?

3 MS. McHENRY: No, Your Honour, I had

4 finished my cross-examination, thank you.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?

6 MS. BOLER: Just a little bit, Your Honour,

7 thank you.

8 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, you're

9 still under oath.

10 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, may I ask for your

11 indulgence, during the appearances, I see that my

12 statement has been omitted from the transcript, so

13 could this be corrected, please.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I

15 think it will be.

16 MR. OLUJIC: And with your permission, Your

17 Honours --

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Your statement this

19 morning, your appearance wasn't reflected on the

20 transcript.

21 MR. OLUJIC: No, something else. In the

22 course of yesterday's examination, when my learned

23 colleague from the Prosecution was examining the

24 witness, in view of the fact that my client was

25 mentioned, may I also be allowed to examine the witness

Page 14365

1 with two questions?

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's all right, yes, you

3 might. Please, Ms. Boler, let him ask his two

4 questions.

5 WITNESS: Senadin Turkovic.

6 MR. OLUJIC: May it please the Court?

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.

8 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you.

9 Examined by Olujic

10 Q. Could morning, Mr. Turkovic. May I introduce

11 myself, I am Olujic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zdravko

12 Mucic. I shall be very brief Mr. Turkovic, with two

13 questions that I have for you.

14 Would it be correct to say that you saw Mr.

15 Mucic in the Musala Collection Centre somewhere towards

16 the end of August, 1992 when he was discharging

17 people?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Mr. Turkovic, would I be right in saying that

20 you concluded on the superior position of Mr. Mucic on

21 the basis of seeing him in Musala?

22 A. That is right. When you see somebody signing

23 the release papers for a large number of prisoners,

24 then it is normal to conclude from that that he is in

25 charge.

Page 14366

1 Q. Further, Mr. Turkovic, am I right in saying

2 that you have no personal knowledge about the actual

3 position of Mr. Zdravko Mucic?

4 A. Yes, you're right.

5 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, thank you, Your

6 Honours.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

8 Ms. Boler, you can now proceed.

9 Re-examined by Ms. Boler

10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Turkovic.

11 A. Good morning to you too.

12 Q. Let me just ask you a question or two. Do

13 you recall speaking with Cynthia McMurrey when she came

14 to interview witnesses in Konjic?

15 A. Yes, I remember that.

16 Q. And at that time, do you recall her asking

17 you some questions about when Esad Landzo first came to

18 be a guard at Musala?

19 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, may I ask is she

20 impeaching the witness or may I ask for how this arises

21 out of cross-examination?

22 MS. BOLER: My recollection is that there

23 were some questions in cross-examination about when he

24 arrived at Musala.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please confine your

Page 14367

1 re-examination to matters which arose from

2 cross-examination.

3 MS. BOLER: My recollection was that it did

4 arise from cross-examination. May I have a few

5 minutes? I just have one last question.

6 Do you recall telling Cynthia McMurrey that

7 you weren't sure of the last day when Mr. Landzo

8 arrived at Musala?

9 A. Yes, that is what I said.

10 Q. And it's still your testimony that you're not

11 sure of that?

12 A. Yes, if I may, I should like to elaborate a

13 little on the way in which many people came to Musala.

14 It could occur that five soldiers would come on the

15 same day to volunteer and then the next day five or six

16 would go away. So that at the beginning of the

17 aggression, a group of people would spend five or six

18 days there, sleeping there as well, whereas there was a

19 turnover of people, people were coming and going

20 everyday.

21 MS. BOLER: Okay, thank you for your answer,

22 Mr. Turkovic. And I pass the witness, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much Mr.

24 Turkovic. You've been very helpful and we are

25 grateful. This is the end of your examination, you're

Page 14368

1 discharged now.

2 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

3 (The witness withdrew)

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have your next

5 witness, please.

6 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour the Defence

7 would like to call Dr. Alfredo Verde to the stand,

8 please.

9 (Witness entered)

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly swear the

11 WITNESS: Alfredo Verde

12 THE WITNESS: I swear that I will speak the

13 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please take your seat,

15 please.

16 MS. McMURREY: May I proceed, Your Honours.



19 Q. Good morning, Dr. Verde.

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. Will you tell the Court your full name

22 please?

23 A. Yes, my name is Alfredo Verde, and I am

24 Italian.

25 Q. In fact, you had thought you were going to

Page 14369

1 speak through an Italian interpreter?

2 A. I had, yes.

3 Q. But you're going to do your best to speak in

4 English today?

5 A. Yes, my English is not so good, but I will

6 try to do my best for the Court and for you.

7 Q. We appreciate that, thank you. You and I

8 only metaphor the first time this Saturday, didn't we?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And let me ask you -- Your Honours, I now

11 have an English translation of Dr. Verde's curriculum

12 vitae, which I would like to distribute to the Court.

13 We didn't have it before. We just received it, so with

14 the help of the usher, I would like to provide the

15 Court with an English version of his curriculum vitae.

16 And while we're doing that, I will go ahead and start.

17 Dr. Verde, would you tell the Court about

18 your educational experience?

19 A. Yes. I had my classical studies when I

20 finished at 18. I had -- I took a law degree and then

21 I began again and took a psychology degree and I

22 graduated in 19 -- I think 1986 -- '85, yes. But then

23 I was already at the Criminological Institute of the

24 University of Genoa. And after I began a Ph.D. and I had

25 my PH.D. in 1990, yes. And that's the academic part of

Page 14370

1 my curriculum vitae because I had yet still

2 psychoanalytical training and I became a

3 psychoanalyst. In Italy, we are called

4 psychotherapist. It doesn't matter the school to whom

5 you belong. And I am a psychoanalyst and now I am

6 working at the -- now the name is Department of Legal

7 Medicine, Medical Psychology and Criminal section of

8 Psychiatry.

9 Q. And that's a new name?

10 A. Yes, it changed one year, ago, yes.

11 Q. And there you are also a member of a lot

12 of -- well, you teach at the university --

13 A. Yes, I teach most law students and to the

14 school of specialisation, that means sort of

15 specialisation of graduate, specialisation of clinical

16 criminology. I teach forensic psychology, yes.

17 Q. And you're a member of a very elite group in

18 the international community?

19 A. Yes, I am a member of the Scientific Board of

20 the International Society for criminology, yes.

21 Q. And about how many members from all over the

22 world are there on the board?

23 A. I don't know the exact number, but we should

24 be 25 at maximum.

25 Q. Thank you. At the University of Genoa, are

Page 14371

1 you responsible for psycho-diagnostics in your

2 department?

3 A. Yes. The psycho-diagnostics section of the

4 section of criminology, I am responsible, yes.

5 Q. And I now have passed -- I want to say that

6 we had a very quick interpretation of Dr. Verde's

7 report too. So I will ask that the usher pass that

8 out, because he has made just a few changes on it, just

9 as far as the interpretation goes and these are all

10 written in his handwriting.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it's better that

12 we go on with the job. If the Prosecution has any

13 queries, they might raise it.

14 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, he will review

15 this report in a little bit. And some of these changes

16 drastically change the meaning of the words because

17 this was interpreted by someone who didn't have any

18 experience in psychological testing and the

19 terminology. So there is really only four or five

20 changes, but I think they're instrumental in the Court

21 understanding what he is going to be reviewing. And

22 one of the first changes is that he is not director of

23 the Institute of criminology, he is a researcher. So

24 if the Court would just indulge me to pass these out,

25 they are a few hand-written notes. So with the help of

Page 14372

1 the usher, could I get him to distribute these, please.

2 Now, I am not going to go into this report

3 right now, but how did you come to -- to participate in

4 this case?

5 A. Dr. Lagazzi spoke of it to me about one month

6 ago, yes, one month ago. And he told me something of

7 Landzo, but a very short description of his

8 personality. We had a ten minutes talk about it and

9 then he -- then I came to Holland to see him.

10 Q. And, in fact, because he didn't really tell

11 you any details about Mr. Landzo --

12 A. No, no, in ten minutes, it's impossible.

13 Q. Then you went to perform the testing without

14 any really preconceived ideas about --

15 A. Yes, we call it blind testing.

16 Q. Blind?

17 A. Blind testing, yes.

18 Q. And what is your clinical and forensic

19 experience?

20 A. In my position at the Criminological Section

21 at the University of Genoa, I have conducted a lot of

22 testing on criminal people. And I am doing tests since

23 I am there, even before since my -- even before my

24 graduation in psychology. I think since 1980. And

25 doing such kind of tests, Rorschach and TAT. And I do

Page 14373

1 some works for the Court, both in the criminal and in

2 the civil fields. For example, child custody

3 litigation and so on and an expert of both of the

4 juvenile court and of the civil juvenile of Genoa.

5 Q. In fact, you recently did some major studies

6 on two very important Italian criminal cases. What

7 were those?

8 A. Pietro Massa (Phon) and Luigi Zeppe (Phon).

9 Pietro killed his parents and he had some particular

10 personality disorder. And Luigi Zeppe was more

11 severely psychotic and he killed two children in

12 Foligno. It's a small Italian town in Umbria near

13 Perugia. And I did some work both for the Defence team

14 and for a more academic scientific point of view upon

15 them.

16 Q. In fact, in many of these cases that you

17 participate in in Italy, someone else does the actual

18 clinical testing and you're called in to interpret the

19 results?

20 A. Yes, because I have -- I do private practice

21 too, so I am called by the Defence teams and I have to

22 interpret the testing made by other psychologists in

23 order to discuss the testing in court. For example,

24 the Chiati (Phon) case was that. And we obtained a

25 change in the evaluation by the Court of Appeal.

Page 14374

1 Q. Now, I know that everybody knows what the

2 difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist

3 is?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. But there is just one major difference?

6 A. Yes, I am not a physician.

7 Q. Yes, not a physician.

8 A. I am not an MD.

9 Q. Yes. I would like to ask you before you

10 tested Mr. Landzo, you didn't review any documents, did

11 you?

12 A. No, not at all. After testing, I review some

13 documents. Laggazi is one, Laggazi gave his paper to

14 me for reading and I read Dr. Van Leuween reports, I

15 think two, two reports. And nothing more until

16 Sunday.

17 Q. And Sunday we met together --

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. And I presented you with the psychological

20 testing of another doctor at that time.

21 A. Yeah.

22 Q. Who was that?

23 A. Yes, Ms. Roorda de Man psychological report

24 that I read just Sunday, Sunday night I finished it,

25 yes.

Page 14375

1 Q. And can you tell me what the results of her

2 report were and how they differ from the report that

3 you have completed?

4 A. They are not very different from my results,

5 but Roorda de Man, the first part of the report speaks

6 about the interview she had with Landzo and describes

7 his mental condition. Then she proceeded to do some

8 psychological testing, mainly from the point of view of

9 an evaluation of his mental level, intelligence. She

10 did a lot of testing in that field and from the testing

11 made -- it came out that Landzo was of average

12 intelligence, maybe a little upon the average.

13 Q. Above the average?

14 A. Above, sorry.

15 Q. I'm sorry, Your Honours, I am going to assist

16 him if you don't mind because I know what he is trying

17 to say?

18 A. Yes, yes, my English. Yes, above the

19 average. And then she -- I didn't know, she did not

20 succeed in doing the projective part of the testing.

21 Q. And do you know why she didn't succeed in

22 doing a successful projective testing on Mr. Landzo?

23 A. She said that he was not interest in the

24 things, he didn't -- he couldn't manage. And the

25 projective testing presents the person with a lot of

Page 14376

1 stimulus. The person cannot understand and cannot

2 relate to anything, so maybe she said he was not

3 interested in. And she tried to perform, to do the

4 Rorschach, but Mr. Landzo didn't give any response, any

5 answer. And she did the TAT and he gave some trivial

6 response, some trivial answer that were not useful for

7 arriving at some valid conclusion.

8 Q. Now, so basically -- and what date was this

9 test by Dr. Roorda de Man attempted?

10 A. Date, yes. Was November the 6th, 1996.

11 Q. And this test, basically, where she left

12 off --

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. Tell me what the difference in her testing

15 and your testing is?

16 A. Yes, I have done this testing without seeing

17 Roorda De Man's report and my test begins where Roorda

18 de Man's ends. And the difference is I have been

19 successful in doing the test, performing the task. And

20 Mr. Landzo gave me a lot of answers. So it was

21 possible to me to write a report evaluating the

22 condition of his -- from a psychological point of view,

23 evaluating the condition of his personality.

24 Q. So these two reports, your report and Dr.

25 Roorda de Man's report, are not consistent, they're

Page 14377

1 just concentrating on two different areas?

2 A. Yes, and my part can be seen as the

3 continuation of Roorda de Man's work. And I succeeded

4 finished in what she didn't succeed because given the

5 condition of the patient, if I can call him so.

6 Q. Your Honours, at this time, I would like to

7 introduce the prior testing of Dr. Roorda de Man into

8 evidence. The Prosecutor has had a copy of this

9 testing all along. It's really just a continuation.

10 It's one set of psychological testing. Roorda de Man

11 was able to do the intelligence part of the test, and

12 then finally, with cooperation or with more response

13 from Mr. Landzo, he has been able to do the projective

14 testing. So as part of the psychological testing, I

15 would like to introduce her initial testing results

16 too.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may do so.

18 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. I think I'll have

19 to use the witness' only copy right now.

20 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, at some point prior

21 to cross-examination, could I be provided with a copy

22 of that?

23 MS. McMURREY: Yes. I know this has been a

24 part of the court's records for a long time, so I

25 didn't make copies, but I'll certainly provide copies

Page 14378

1 to the Defence counsel as soon as we have the next

2 break.

3 JUDGE JAN: I am not very clear. What's

4 projective testing?

5 MS. McMURREY: I'm going get the that because

6 I wanted to explain his testing. So if you'll allow me

7 to go on with my question, I'll get to that.

8 Q. Now, first of all, when you went to see Mr.

9 Landzo, you had not read any reports about him before

10 and all you had was a brief ten-minute briefing by Dr.

11 Lagazzi. What did you find when you met him? What was

12 he like when you saw him? What was his personality?

13 A. Before the beginning of the testing or during

14 the testing, I found a very well-suit person with a

15 tie. And he seemed, to me, a person belonging to his

16 Defence team, yes. I see him there, yes. He is the

17 same as -- his clothes are the same or similar.

18 Q. Was he eager to visit with you?

19 A. Yes, he was eager, he was gentle. We shake

20 our hands. He was concentrating on the task, but on

21 one side -- on the other side he was rather

22 impersonal. I didn't feel a lot of empathy from him to

23 me and to the situation. He seemed to me a person

24 keeping his control. And keeping everything around him

25 very well controlled.

Page 14379

1 Q. Now, you did this, performed this testing in

2 June of this year, didn't you, and what dates were

3 those?

4 A. June 19th and 20th, yes.

5 Q. And how many hours do you think you spent

6 performing this testing on Mr. Landzo?

7 A. I know -- eight hours, about eight hours

8 during two days.

9 Q. And while you were performing this testing,

10 it was a complicated process of Serbo Croat to

11 Italian, Italian to -- you had two different

12 interpreters?

13 A. Yes, from Serbo Croat to Dutch and from

14 Dutch to Italian. But, I succeed -- I succeeded in

15 performing the test. And this complex situation didn't

16 -- was a -- we succeeded in performing it. It didn't

17 influence the results.

18 Q. Now, would you explain to the Court what

19 psychological testing is and what projective testing

20 is?

21 A. Yes, we can -- I say it briefly.

22 Psychological testing is a complex field. It is a

23 field developed by the first psychologist at the

24 beginning of the century and the testing -- many things

25 can be tested from intelligence to emotions, feelings

Page 14380

1 and even mental condition. And the testing -- the

2 field of the test divides into two main areas; the

3 objective, the so-called objective tests, and the

4 projective ones. For objective tests, measures some

5 trait of personality, some -- some kind of ability or

6 some kind of mental functioning, for example,

7 intelligence and even some trait of personality we can

8 measure it with the objective tests. And -- but

9 objective test shows some problem because they're

10 mainly in -- mainly constitute by questionnaires. That

11 means you have some items, some question you have to

12 answer. And then they're passed through the computer

13 elaboration and at the end something mechanical comes

14 out. And something very precise, very clear and --

15 Q. And that's the kind of testing that Dr.

16 Roorda de Man performed, right?

17 A. Me, no.

18 Q. No --

19 A. Yes, all the test that Roorda de Man succeed

20 in performing were objective tests and she tried to

21 evaluate the intelligence of Mr. Landzo. And she

22 didn't succeed in doing the projective part of the

23 tests. And we did it. I did it.

24 Q. Now, would you tell Judge Jan what projective

25 testing is?

Page 14381

1 A. Yes, the patient is presented a neutral and

2 not clear stimulus. And stimulus that's not related to

3 the field that psychologists wants to know. And, for

4 example, we can speak of the Rorschach test. The

5 patient is presented upon the table upon which there is

6 a big ink blot. And the patient is asked in -- is

7 asked, what do you see upon the table? And it is sort

8 of interpretation, like you could interpret the form of

9 the clouds, for example. This is a game children

10 play. And in seeing, in watching at tables and in

11 seeing something, we say that the patient, the

12 Rorschach say, that the patient projects something that

13 he has inside him. That's his way of reacting to the

14 stimulus and the -- and it can be seen by him outside.

15 So projection means looking -- seeing outside what one

16 person has inside, if I can speak so. And its

17 projective tactics are very famous throughout the

18 world. And especially the Rorschach was invented by

19 Herman Rorschach in 1921. He studied psychology with

20 Karl Gustav Jung. Since then lots of publications and

21 books have appeared about it, for example. And I have

22 explained the Rorschach while speaking of projective

23 tactics, I have explain how is the Rorschach

24 construct. And --

25 Q. The second test that you performed was called

Page 14382

1 the TAT. What does that stand for?

2 A. It's slightly different from the Rorschach

3 because the patient is not given not so -- not so-- a

4 more detailed stimulus. The patient is presented with

5 a picture in which there is some person, maybe some are

6 photographs, some are pictures.

7 Q. Some are even blank, right?

8 A. Yes, one, the 16th, yes, blank. And we say

9 to the patient, "Look at it and imagine what can be,

10 what could be there."

11 Q. What part of the story you want to tell with

12 that?

13 A. Yes, imagine something, some picture upon it

14 and say to me what story comes out from it, yes, what

15 plot is there.

16 Q. And just for the Court's information, TAT

17 stands for what? What are those initials?

18 A. Thematic Apperception Test because you look

19 at the tables and when you look at it, you are asked to

20 tell the story of that table and what do the main

21 characters, the main persons in the table think and how

22 is that situation, what happened and what will happen

23 -- and what will happen in the future. So that is

24 possible to see how, how a person constructs the

25 plots. And some of that are very harsh, are very

Page 14383

1 crude. For example, the 13th table is very crude.

2 There is a man standing and the woman, a naked woman

3 lying in her bed looking dead. And so, there has been

4 a lot of difficulties of interpretation because people

5 tend -- all people tend to see a situation of murder in

6 it. For example, they think that, they say, oh, maybe

7 this man, she was a former lover and he killed her, for

8 example. So it has been a more difficult than the

9 Rorschach to find a key to interpret it in a more

10 formal way.

11 Q. A standard or a code?

12 A. Yes, a code, because the Rorschach has a very

13 complex coding, a formal one and depending on what, on

14 what the patient has seen upon the table, I am speaking

15 of the Rorschach. And there is a coding, a very

16 complex coding -- a coding to locate what the patient

17 has seen to determination of his response. For

18 example, the shape or the colour or the shadow and so

19 on and, according to the content what the patient has

20 seen, for example, human response, animal response or

21 object response or a nature or botanic or mask -- there

22 is a lot of contents, yes.

23 Q. Just for the Court's information, the

24 Rorschach test, the ink blocks, they start in black and

25 white --

Page 14384

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And as you progress different colours are

3 added --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And which also invoke different emotions?

6 A. Yes, colours are connected to emotions and to

7 activity. And we can see the way in which the patients

8 manage their activity. And, for example, I don't want

9 to anticipate anything, but Mr. Landzo was rather

10 difficult in managing his activity, especially as

11 concerns the red, the colour red that means, you know

12 what red is, it's the colour of love, passion and

13 blood, for example. And he had some problem in it.

14 And we call shock. That means that the person is

15 shocked by the colour and doesn't interpret it. And

16 this is precisely what Mr. Landzo did, for example.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, the two projective tests

18 that you did, they're widely accepted in the

19 International Community of Psychology as valid tests,

20 aren't they?

21 A. Yes, both. Even in the United States,

22 Rorschach has been criticised because it's rather

23 subjective interpretation. But I review, for example,

24 this morning, Kaplan and Sadock, Synopsis of Psychiatry

25 that my friend Lagazzi had and that you had. And I saw

Page 14385

1 upon it that the Rorschach is considered one of the

2 best ways, but must be interpreted by an expert

3 psychologist.

4 Q. I want to ask you, there is another test

5 called the MMPI, would you tell the Court what that

6 test is, and why did you not choose to use that test?

7 A. Yes. If you remember the distinction I made

8 before between protective and objective test is a

9 personality questionnaire that is objective. And there

10 are a lot of questions to which the patient has to

11 answer true or false. And then all is passed through,

12 through the computer and then comes out a lot of, a lot

13 of scales come out of it and looking -- showing the

14 different traits of the personality. But, in this

15 case, we preferred not to -- not to performing not to

16 do it because it is not culture free. There is a

17 rather big cultural bias in it because it was -- it was

18 studied and it was constructed in the United States, so

19 it's full of reference to cultural themes more proper

20 to the United States than to a Bosnian environment.

21 Q. I think, as you explained it to me, it may

22 correctly project someone who is a white Anglo-Saxon

23 Protestant American like me --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But as far as being cross-cultural, it does

Page 14386

1 not take into consideration different cultures, so it

2 cannot be accurate outside of the United States?

3 A. Yes. And the Rorschach is rather culture

4 free because it is based upon perception, so the way in

5 which people see things, see ink blots.

6 JUDGE JAN: Doctor, your perception is also

7 conditioned by your cultural background.

8 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, it is, but not in

9 the way it is -- the way -- not in the way the words

10 are. The speech is much more. And, for example, from

11 the point of view from intelligence, we have different

12 testing and the most famous is WAIS. I think Dr.

13 Roorda de Man performed some subtests belonging to it.

14 And WAIS, Wexler Intelligence case is rather biased in

15 the culture because it's mainly verbal. There is a

16 non-verbal part, but it is just one half of the test.

17 And there are other kind of testing that are more

18 culture free, more free. If I remember, one of the PM,

19 relevance, progressive -- PM 38, yes. PM 38 and PM 45,

20 they are based more upon -- not upon phrases and words

21 and discourse, but upon images. There are a lot of

22 different flags showing some logical line, some logical

23 progression. Then there is one flag lacking and you

24 have to choose the appropriate response among eight or

25 ten flags below. And on the lowest part of the sheet,

Page 14387

1 yes.

2 Q. Let me ask you, yesterday there was testimony

3 about a term called malingering and I would like for

4 you to say what that is, but also how the test that you

5 performed are set to filter out and designed to bypass

6 any malingering?

7 A. There are two types of malingering. The one

8 is the way one person can present himself. And, I

9 don't know. Malingering could mean trying to appear

10 differently from what one feels to be to the aim of

11 manipulation, for example. And there is another kind

12 of malingering that's not so conscious, but it's not

13 malingering, but it's being -- having some, some

14 tendency to play a part that's different. One is

15 consciously seeking to present himself to the end of

16 having a given result and one is not malingering, but

17 is a tendency to, to wear a mask, I could say.

18 Q. So the one is intentional and one is

19 unintentional?

20 A. Yes. Malingering in the narrow sense and the

21 other is the tendency to play a part that's different.

22 Q. But these two tests that you did are designed

23 to be able to detect real --

24 A. Yes, because they are real. The patient

25 doesn't know what to look for and looks at the table

Page 14388

1 and sees what's upon it. So, it's impossible to -- oh,

2 yes, it could be that someone came and say to the

3 patient, oh, tomorrow the Rorschach will be performed

4 upon you. You have to look just some kind of things,

5 but we succeed in discovering it. But it's impossible,

6 malingering in the more narrow sense I say it.

7 And the second interpretation of the term

8 that means playing a part, yes, it's possible to see

9 it. Yes, it's possible to see the characteristic of

10 the personality and especially the way in which colour

11 response are treated by the patient. We have

12 dramatised colours and false colours and we can see

13 from it, we can detect the characteristic of a

14 personality.

15 Q. Now, when you performed these tests, tell me

16 how you apply them to a forensic kind of conclusion.

17 How they are applied?

18 A. They are very useful in forensic psychology

19 or forensic psychiatry field because given -- because

20 the patient cannot lie. And so in the forensic

21 situation it happens that the patient comes and try to,

22 to -- not to tell the truth and by such testing is a

23 way of bypassing the problem because the patient

24 doesn't know what the right answer could be in

25 Rorschach or in TAT there is not the right answer.

Page 14389

1 Every answer is accepted by the psychologist and coded

2 according to the formal coding of that particular

3 test. So it's possible to have an evaluation rather

4 free from the malingering that you spoke of.

5 Q. Now, you prepared a report after your testing

6 on Mr. Landzo, didn't you?

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. And that report is in front of you and before

9 the judges and I am going to ask -- well, I'll wait

10 until we're finished going through it. Can you tell

11 me -- describe to the Court, the use of the coding in

12 the TAT first and then in the Rorschach and then how

13 you come up with a summary. Just go ahead and explain

14 how you performed the testing and what this reflects?

15 A. Yes. When I administer the test, I show the

16 tables to the patient and the patient, you can see, for

17 example, at page -- I take the English one. Yes,

18 there. Page No. -- for example, page No. 1 you can see

19 there is the text No. 1 means the first story told at

20 the first TAT table and you see on the right side there

21 is the coding, there is a formal one, a French one,

22 coming from France and from the Sorbonne.

23 Q. Well, just to preface this, you gave an

24 English legend that you wrote out this morning and just

25 handed to me?

Page 14390

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Which explains that a G on this code which

3 would be a W in English, which would mean whole, so

4 that you can understand how we coded this?

5 A. For example, if you take the Rorschach -- you

6 can find it, there are three columns on the page, if

7 you took every page, you can see on the left there is

8 the response of the patient. For example, table No. 2,

9 table No. 2, "You saw two things. I don't know, two

10 animals, I can state two rabbits", for example. And

11 then there is the inquiry because after the test has

12 finished, we look again at the tables with the patient

13 asking him where did you see that? How did you see

14 it? Why did you see it? Show me and so on in order to

15 understand, to better understanding of what -- why he

16 saw the things he saw.

17 Q. Just for clarity, the first one would be the

18 patient's blank response?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The second one would be after more interview

21 with him, why he --

22 A. Yes, for example, sometimes between brackets,

23 I have put the words of the patient in the second

24 column. The fist response, table No. 1, he seems -- he

25 said blank, he seems like a person who is in a position

Page 14391

1 ready to run. This is a reflected image of the same

2 this thing. This is what it appears to me, a person.

3 And then he explained, he is about to run away to the

4 right, to the right direction, towards the right.

5 Q. And that is --

6 A. And that's my -- yes?

7 Q. I think you said any time there is movement,

8 that's an indication of intelligence or --

9 A. Yes, of -- we could say intratension and that

10 means -- it refers Karl Gustav Jung, division of

11 personality, extroversion and introversion. And we say

12 that's a sign of intelligence, of activity of that and

13 of the mind, of the personality. But, for example, in

14 this case, I have taken just the one in which he say he

15 sees a blocked person. Ready to run, but blocked.

16 Q. But doesn't --

17 A. He doesn't run, he tries to run, but stops,

18 exerting his control upon it. And so that's the way in

19 which he tries to exert his control upon things and is

20 managing his, is controlling the whole situation.

21 Q. And these are -- these interpretations that

22 you give these, these are fairly standardised

23 throughout the international community?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That kind of interpretation?

Page 14392

1 A. Rather standardised, yes.

2 Q. Now, I want to go on to getting to your

3 conclusion.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And when you go back to the TAT test, would

6 you explain -- don't go into the testing itself, but

7 explain to the Court your conclusions and why you came

8 to that conclusion on the TAT test?

9 A. Yes. Yes, if I could use the --

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Mainly two operating modalities of -- yes, of

12 thinking of behaving, like two levels in the

13 personality and the first we could say two levels,

14 first level, the surface. And a deeper level, a more

15 sincere one, the deepest. And apparently the patient

16 functions rather well. He is intelligent, he is

17 clever, he is -- in some way he succeeds in controlling

18 the situation with intelligence. I would like to say

19 that at the Rorschach, it can be see seen his

20 intelligence as well. But his intelligence it showed

21 in some way limited by an internal conflict, emotional

22 conflict, a big one. So, apparently, it seems to

23 function well from the intellectual point of view and

24 that confirms Dr. Roorda de Man's conclusion that his

25 intelligence is in some way above the average. So he

Page 14393

1 functioning, but -- but at the TAT, there are a lot of

2 clinical, formal signs of narcissism. That means that

3 the story are plotted in a rather narcissistic way and

4 there are not relationships between the persons, but

5 mainly descriptions of how the persons feel, of their

6 feelings and passions and what they feel from a -- even

7 from a bodily point of view, warm, cold, the air, the

8 atmosphere, all signs coded by -- that's the name of a

9 French researcher. Like a sign of -- like a sign of

10 narcissism.

11 Q. I want to ask you too, when you speak of

12 narcissism, are you applying this kind of conclusion to

13 criteria in the DSM IV?

14 A. No. I'm speaking of narcissism from a

15 psychodynamic point of view, and that means that the

16 main concern of the subject, is aimed toward himself,

17 so is mainly engaged with himself and he uses the

18 others like a tool, like an instrument to have some,

19 some advantage for himself, not considering the other

20 from a caring, from a --

21 Q. Empathetic?

22 A. Yes, he was not empathetic, not during the

23 examination. He was very kind, very friendly, but not

24 empathetic from that point of view. And so we could

25 say this level is well-functioning, but lacking concern

Page 14394

1 for the others. I am trying to make -- to telling it

2 in a not scientific, not technical way. That

3 means narcissism.

4 Q. And that's what I asked Dr. Verde to treat me

5 because I don't know what these terms mean so he is

6 speaking like he is speaking to me.

7 A. Narcissism. Yes, another important

8 characteristic of the TAT, we had some response, some

9 answer for on clothing, on skin --

10 Q. On outside.

11 A. On the outside, yes. And that means that the

12 patient is like he were wearing some clothes in order

13 to appear, but not to be because the sense of identity

14 comes from the lower child level, from the depth of the

15 personality and he has not such kind of identity and he

16 tries to appear and tries to stick to the other person

17 in order to become --

18 Q. To get -- to have an identity at all?

19 A. Yes. And I say -- I saw him, for example, in

20 this, I could call, a lawyer version of himself.

21 And -- yes. And this kind of personality has been

22 studied by psychiatry and psychoanalysts and that's

23 what the famous psychoanalyst, Donald Winicott called

24 false self. Because the true self is a self that has a

25 surface, but is connected with the deeper level. The

Page 14395

1 false self is something superficial.

2 Q. Now, when you're talking about the deeper

3 level, did you find that it was empty, what did you

4 find in the deeper level?

5 A. I --

6 Q. I'm sorry, I might be getting you out of your

7 order. You go ahead and explain your conclusion.

8 A. No, no. Yes, I am explaining upon the

9 Rorschach now because the TAT is more near to the

10 consciousness and it allows to us to go in-depth, but

11 not in-depth as the Rorschach. The Rorschach shows

12 there is a lot of mirror responses, that means

13 narcissism. You know the story of Narcissi. At this

14 level we found mainly is strange because the Rorschach

15 he can function and he can manage his emotion. And,

16 for example, the colours. But at the lowest level he

17 cannot. And there was a particular response at the

18 seven table of the Rorschach, the maternal one, and he

19 saw a woman with something around her neck and

20 something around the neck is the particular kind of

21 response, it's how asthma shows himself at the

22 Rorschach. I have to say asthma, in this condition, he

23 had asthma in his childhood and that's the condition

24 that affected him most in his early years. And asthma

25 means a difficult relation with the mother. So we

Page 14396

1 could speak of a child, you know, when the personality

2 is well-structured, the child levels and the adult one

3 are in good contact between -- there is a good contact

4 between them and the child can work with the adult,

5 with the parent inside and succeed and the child has

6 the emotions and the adult control them and so on. But

7 we have a sort of dividing line between one surface and

8 the depth that's not so controlled. And at that level,

9 there is the child, an ill, weak child with asthma,

10 maybe with some problems with the mother, the figure of

11 the mother, the -- there is a lot of stories of the TAT

12 of pictures of the TAT that show one old woman that

13 could be the mother and the patient spoke of the

14 mothers in his stories in a very idealised way.

15 Psychologists say, when you speak always well of a

16 person, when you idealise her, there is a problem

17 because every relationship has some problem. And the

18 way a person has to deal with it and to manage it and

19 to manage the conflict. If a person says there is no

20 conflict, my mother is the best or the mother are at

21 best in the TAT, there is some problem. So there is an

22 over idealisation of the mother, that means that he had

23 a lot of problems with his mother and that's a -- it

24 is a problem to speak of it, of them. So, maybe -- we

25 say that when we go to depth, we have to interpret

Page 14397

1 something. We call this, in psychology, defence

2 mechanism and idealisation is one of them.

3 Idealisation on one side and splitting on the other.

4 That means dividing the experience into two fields, one

5 very good, very nice and one very bad. And when the --

6 when something -- when there is something, there is

7 some difficulty at the childish level, the patient can

8 become very aggressive. And that's the other finding

9 of the test. And he is very scared, very anxious about

10 his aggressiveness and he doesn't succeed very well in

11 controlling it.

12 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on).

13 MS. MCMURREY: Well, those are, of course, my

14 last few questions. I am trying to get through these

15 conclusions and how they apply to the questions that we

16 have here and I think we're coming to that.

17 JUDGE JAN: Doctor, before you proceed

18 further, projective testing results, won't they vary

19 with the passage of time because you get more

20 experience.


22 JUDGE JAN: Now, I am talking about

23 projective testing results. Would they not vary?

24 THE WITNESS: Yes, in the same person, yes,

25 they would vary very much.

Page 14398

1 JUDGE JAN: In 1992, the result would be

2 different from those in 1997?

3 THE WITNESS: Yes, they should be. There is

4 a speculation, but I could say the level of control of

5 emotions by the patient, if in 1992 his condition were

6 bad, control was lesser. So maybe that level, the

7 functioning, well-functioning one were not so in

8 control of the situation. And the other may be more

9 prone to come out, for example.

10 JUDGE JAN: Particularly when you have

11 traumatic experiences, particularly.

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, traumatic experiences can

13 contribute to the worsening of the situation. And on

14 the other side, good experiences can render it better,

15 can render the performance better. For example, I saw

16 the psychotherapist of the patient and we spoke for ten

17 minutes in June and he say that the patient was

18 behaving, was performing much better than a short time

19 before.

20 JUDGE JAN: Yes, thank you.


22 Q. I want to clarify one thing, Dr. Verde, the

23 conditions that you're describing from your testing of

24 Mr. Landzo, they didn't just appear in 1992, this is a

25 condition that began from early childhood?

Page 14399

1 A. Yeah. It's a condition that is a

2 personality. So the personality develops itself from

3 the birth and from genetic factors and from -- mainly

4 from -- research has shown that there are genetic

5 factors that can influence the development of a

6 personality, but the most important influence lies in

7 the -- I could say emotional environment around the

8 child. Winicott spoke of the good enough mother.

9 Q. That scares me since I am here and my

10 children are in Texas?

11 A. Yes, but if you're concerned for them, that's

12 okay. Yes, because capacity for concern and love is

13 very important if the child feels that his mother cares

14 for him and loves him and holds him. Winicott speaks

15 of holding a person, the way in which the person is

16 hold in the arms of the mother.

17 Q. Dr. Verde, to summarise your conclusions from

18 your testing, could you just tell us what conditions

19 you found?

20 A. Yes. I found a state of mind that can be

21 called a marginal, borderline state in the sense of

22 Karburg (Phon). That not mean borderline in the DMS 4

23 sense, but it show that the personality is functioning

24 in a very complex and not well-suited way. And that

25 means that we are in presence of a disorder, of a

Page 14400

1 mental disorder. And that -- there are lot of problems

2 in the patient, yes. It's called borderline --

3 borderline personality organisation. Yeah.

4 Q. And from your testing, do you come up with

5 labels of different conditions that he is suffering

6 from or is that the next step with the psychiatrist?

7 A. I don't understand. Could you repeat?

8 Q. I am not even sure, myself, but when you come

9 up with the fact that there is borderline condition --

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. -- that is fragile?

12 A. Yes, fragile personality.

13 Q. In this personality, do you come up with a

14 label in your clinical testing or is that the next step

15 that the psychiatrist --

16 A. No, that's the psychiatrist. From the point

17 of view of the personality, that's my diagnosis,

18 borderline personality organisation, but I have not

19 written it in my report. Let me see, complex

20 personality which appears as apparently that he acted,

21 but in reality it shows a rather heightened level of

22 disturbance. That was the TAT. And the Rorschach, a

23 complex personality who functions rather at the

24 intellective than the effective level. He is

25 experiencing notable problems with respect to human

Page 14401

1 contacts and also secondary narcissism leading to a

2 tendency to depend and idealise archaic, primitive and

3 intensely loved object. These are compared by a

4 notable aggressiveness which is base on the original

5 depriving situation which is connected on the --

6 connected to an unsatisfied relationship with the

7 figure of primary attachment, with the mother.

8 Q. So these conclusions that you come up with,

9 they are to find that there is a problem and they are

10 explained in generic terms?

11 A. Yes, a big one.

12 Q. And, Your Honours, I would like to introduce

13 his report into evidence at this point and I would like

14 to introduce the one that has been corrected as far as

15 terminology goes?

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may put it to him so

17 that you can introduce it in evidence.

18 MS. McMURREY: Okay. Thank you very much. I

19 need the number of that.

20 THE REGISTRAR: It's Defence document-D 51/4.

21 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.

22 Q. And the markings that you have on this,

23 explain your corrections as far as the interpretation

24 goes?

25 A. Yes, yes, because there was some technical

Page 14402

1 problem in the translation.

2 Q. And you stand by the fact that this report

3 that you prepared is accurate?

4 A. Yeah.

5 Q. I move to introduce this into evidence.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's admitted. The

7 Prosecution has one, does it?

8 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, they have

9 one. Do you? I wasn't quite sure.

10 Q. I want to ask you how the authority figure in

11 Mr. Landzo's life, whatever authority figure he has

12 had, how that affects his behaviour?

13 A. The authority figure, the main authority

14 figure is the father in the development of

15 personality. And maybe he had some problems with his

16 father, but with his mother too. So we say that when

17 things go well with the two parents, the personality

18 development is okay. When things go badly, go badly

19 with one of them, there must be the other.

20 Q. Stronger.

21 A. Stronger and ready to take and keep the

22 child. And it's my opinion -- I have not written it in

23 my report, but it's my opinion that both with the

24 mother and the father, there have been a lot of

25 problems from this point of view because you don't have

Page 14403

1 so big a personality disorder if there is an one parent

2 that loves the child and cares for him.

3 Q. And so with this big disorder that you're

4 talking about, how does that affect his behaviour in

5 dealing with other authority figures, not just his

6 mother and father, but as he goes through?

7 A. You know that we tend to live again in the

8 same situation with important persons in our life. So,

9 maybe he made displacement from the mother or from the

10 father to the other person, trying to have from that

11 person what he lacked, what he lacks in the internal

12 relation or what he remembers about his child

13 experience. So, our life is a continuous attempt at

14 having what we didn't have from our past. So maybe he

15 succeeded in finding him or not, but when he finds a

16 parental object, that means -- that means a father or a

17 mother or a person upon which to depend, he will behave

18 in a very -- in a very -- in conformity, in a very

19 similar way. And, for example, we have the lawyer here

20 that I think may be connected to his relation with you

21 or, I don't know.

22 Q. Well, based on your clinical evaluation and

23 your clinical point of view, giving the predicate that

24 Mr. Landzo suffered from a personality condition when

25 he was young, can you say that he suffered from an

Page 14404

1 abnormality of mind in 1992?

2 A. Yeah.

3 Q. And if he was suffering from an abnormality

4 of mind in 1992, did this abnormality of mind influence

5 his inability or ability to control his behaviour in

6 the position of a guard at Celebici?

7 A. Yeah, of the behaviour and of the decisions

8 about himself. We could use a metaphor. For example,

9 the metaphor of the sight, of the visual field. If a

10 person has a well-developed personality, he has a broad

11 -- it's like having a broad visual field and can see

12 things on the -- on both sides and even at the rear.

13 But if a person has not a well -- a good development of

14 his personality, its like having a more narrow visual

15 field --

16 Q. Blinders?

17 A. Not blind, but maybe if normality is 200

18 degrees, if there is a personality disorder, it can be

19 60 degree. So you will see just these things and

20 behave in conformity, for example.

21 Q. As a result of the abnormality of his mind,

22 would you say that he was in a state of diminished

23 mental capacity?

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. In Celebici in '92?

Page 14405

1 A. Yeah.

2 MS. McMURREY: I pass the witness, Your

3 Honour.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the Trial

5 Chamber will rise now and reassemble at noon when we

6 will have cross-examination.

7 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 12.00 p.m.

9 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

10 are sill under oath.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are there any

12 cross-examination by the Defence? You might determine

13 in what order you take it.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the order will

15 be according to the indictment, but the Defence of Mr.

16 Delalic has no questions for this witness.

17 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Your Honours. The

18 Defence of Mr. Mucic has no questions for this

19 witness.

20 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I guess I am up.

21 May it please the Court?

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, please, you may

23 proceed.

24 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Your Honour

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Moran

Page 14406

1 Q. Good afternoon, doctor.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. Doctor, I understand English is not your

4 native language and sometimes I talk a little fast and

5 sometimes I act like English is not my native

6 language. So if I ask a question you don't understand,

7 stop me.

8 A. I have the transcript on the screen.

9 Q. That may be helpful. My name is Tom Moran

10 and I represent a man named Hazim Delic and I have a

11 few questions that I want to ask you, based mainly on

12 your direct examination and they're going to be pretty

13 straightforward. I am not going to go into any kind of

14 detail on your psychological testing, because, frankly,

15 I don't understand it. But I do have a few quick

16 questions.

17 The first question, really, grows out of

18 something in Dr. Roorda de Man's report. You're

19 familiar with that report?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. On page 8 of that report, she talks about Mr.

22 Landzo's motor activities on the Perdue Peg Board?

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Second paragraph.

24 MR. MORAN: Yes, it's the second paragraph

25 from the top in the English version. I am happy to let

Page 14407

1 you borrow my copy so you can find it.


3 MR. MORAN: Let's start with that.

4 Q. What is a Perdue Peg Board, pray tell?

5 A. That's not my report.

6 Q. I know it's Dr. Roorda de Man's report, but,

7 yes, she said you were familiar with it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What is a Perdue Peg Board and what does it

10 measure?

11 A. I don't see in it.

12 Q. The paragraph that has the star next to it,

13 the second paragraph from the top.

14 A. Perdue Peg Board, I don't know.

15 Q. Okay, that's a good answer.

16 A. It's probably a test to measure the motor

17 capacity, the motor activity that belongs to the

18 neuro-psychological field and it was called

19 neuro-psychological field for people working with, for

20 example, motor impairment, for example, Vietnam

21 Veterans, for example.

22 Q. For example, in various reports, including

23 Dr. Lagazzi's --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- There recounts that Mr. Landzo claimed that

Page 14408

1 he had head injuries as a child?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And, typically, where I come from, a

4 neuro-psychologist would perform testing to see if there

5 is organic brain damage based on that. Is that the

6 kind of thing we're talking about?

7 A. Yeah, for example. But this motor, this

8 motor in the Perdue Peg Board may need some motor

9 capacity, so the capacity to take things in and so on.

10 Q. And, in fact, organic brain damage can

11 cause -- it can be minor, caused by head injuries and

12 it can cause people to behave in inappropriate ways;

13 isn't that right?

14 A. It can, yes.

15 Q. Violent?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You never -- you don't do that kind of

18 testing, do you?

19 A. No.

20 Q. In fact, that requires postdoctoral

21 training?

22 A. No, it's a different kind of testing.

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. It's not a broad, as broad as the test I

25 did. That is narrow. And I can see -- I would like to

Page 14409

1 explain to you, I could see the presence of brain

2 damage in the Rorschach. It could be seen easily,

3 rather easily, even when it's not manifold, even if not

4 -- even little minimal signs of brain damage can be

5 seen at the Rorschach, rather easier.

6 Q. And --

7 A. Rather easily, sorry.

8 Q. Doctor, I promise you that your English is

9 much better than my Italian. Judge Jan is smiling

10 because that's a standing joke. I usually say

11 someone's English is much better than my Bosnian.

12 And It's been my experience that

13 professionals, especially neuro-psychologists will tell

14 me that this kind of brain damage can cause, or organic

15 brain damage in general, can, among other things, cause

16 people to behave violently, often times. For instance,

17 they will testify in my country in murder trials saying

18 that this person is not necessarily responsible for

19 what he did because of the organic brain damage?

20 A. Not only neuro-psychologist, but even

21 psychologists and psychiatrists, because psychologists

22 and psychiatrists make a broad evaluation of the

23 personality. So it is possible to see such damage.

24 And, for example, if you want to ask me if I saw that

25 in Mr. Landzo, I will answer to you that I didn't see

Page 14410

1 it.

2 Q. Okay, that's fine. Secondly, in, again, Dr.

3 Roorda de Man's report, and her testimony was that she

4 didn't accede in doing the projective part of the

5 testing because he was not interested and could not

6 relate to anything?

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. Have you examined Dr. Lagazzi's report from

9 May the 15th -- or, excuse me, November the 15th, 1996?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recall seeing in there -- and in the

12 English version, it's page 26 of the report, if you

13 have it in front of you.

14 A. I don't have it here.

15 Q. Okay. That, essentially, he presented that

16 he had an inability to concentrate -- the exact quote

17 is, "The ability to concentrate was objectively

18 limited, without, however, manifesting grossly

19 pathological features." And in the next paragraph, Dr.

20 Lagazzi says, "His logical faculties were shown to be

21 reasonably adequate in the first three interviews,

22 while at the last one they appeared to be practically

23 nil."

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. Those two reports are consistent with each

Page 14411

1 other, aren't they?

2 A. Yeah.

3 Q. Are you familiar with the report Dr. Lagazzi

4 did just a couple of weeks ago?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I believe it's dated the 3rd of July?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And are you familiar with the portions -- and

9 if you like, I can go find them for you.

10 A. Yeah, it would be better.

11 Q. Where Dr. Lagazzi reports that Mr. Landzo,

12 "On some occasions, as he now admits, he simulated

13 disorders of awareness and orientation, which were not

14 compatible with the clinical reality of the case?"

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am just going

17 to object to this line of questioning. Dr. Lagazzi

18 will be testifying tomorrow. He is the best one to

19 testify for this report. And Dr. Verde said he only

20 read it, you know, briefly, after he tested Mr. Landzo,

21 so it really has no relevance to his results in this

22 case. And I think the best evidence would be for him

23 to ask Dr. Lagazzi about these reports.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He is merely asking him

25 whether he has read it. And then he may ask whatever

Page 14412

1 questions he will want to. I don't see how it's not

2 relevant. If he is also a specialist and he is giving

3 evidence in this case, these are areas in which they

4 have all cooperated and will be saying what they knew

5 about the subjects. So, I don't see how it is not

6 relevant. It's quite relevant.

7 MS. McMURREY: I just want to explain, too,

8 that he didn't read those reports --

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has asked him and he

10 said he did.

11 MR. MORAN: May I proceed, Your Honour?


13 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, Judge.

14 Q. And I am going to ask a question because Dr.

15 Lagazzi, who is sitting out in the audience, is going

16 to hear the answer, it may be a delicate question. You

17 have worked with Dr. Lagazzi for quite a while, haven't

18 you?

19 A. I have been working with him for, I think, 15

20 years.

21 Q. And you're friends?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you know him real well? You know him

24 well?

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Fifteen years.

Page 14413


2 Q. And he is a good psychiatrist?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And he is not likely to be fooled by

5 someone who is --

6 A. No, not at all. He has a lot of clinical and

7 forensic experience.

8 Q. Sure. And so, if back in November of 1996,

9 Dr. Lagazzi reported that these logical faculties were

10 practically nil in the last interview and then in July

11 of 1998 he says, wait a second, the patient admitted to

12 me that -- what's the exact phrase? Patient admitted,

13 essentially, that he was feigning this --

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why don't you give the

15 consideration of what Lagazzi says when he comes.

16 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, what I was going to

17 ask the witness was, if it would be unusual for Dr.

18 Lagazzi to be fooled by somebody like that.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You ask him, because he

20 is coming.

21 THE WITNESS: That's not my opinion.

22 MR. MORAN: Okay.

23 Q. And malingering --

24 A. Yes?

25 Q. -- and your tests are objective tests

Page 14414

1 designed to leave out malingering, but people have

2 malingered and fooled very good mental health

3 professionals, haven't they?

4 A. Yes, but I don't think that this is the case

5 because the quality of the projective testing renders

6 it impossible to fool the psychologist.

7 Q. Even in view of the patient's admission that

8 he simulated disorders of awareness and orientation?

9 A. Yes, because I spoke to Mrs. McMurrey about

10 two kinds of malingering. The first one is consciously

11 trying to convince, to persuade the other person. And

12 the second -- and that's the -- and that's the thing

13 that people cannot do with this kind of testing.

14 Q. And, in fact, DSM IV, you're familiar with

15 DSM IV?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It warns practitioners about malingering,

18 doesn't it?

19 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to

20 object. First of all, this psychologist has said he

21 does not use the DSM IV in his testing. He did not

22 rely on the DSM IV. So his question about DSM IV to

23 this clinical psychologist --

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why don't you listen to

25 his answer? He asked him whether he is familiar with

Page 14415

1 the DSM IV. He said yes. That was his answer right

2 now.

3 MS. McMURREY: It's irrelevant because he

4 didn't use DSM IV in his testing.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You're not even an

6 expert, what business have you answering for him?

7 THE WITNESS: The DSM IV says that in some

8 situation there is a danger of simulation, like every

9 textbook of psychiatry, for example, I have here Kaplan

10 and Sadock. And in the forensic section at the end of

11 the book, it tells the same thing. So it's for that

12 reason that we do test. That is the field in which

13 psychological testing is widespread throughout the

14 world because these kind of testing renders to the

15 person very difficult, the simulation, the malingering,

16 the consciously attempt at persuading the others about

17 something not true about themselves, about the

18 personality.


20 Q. And one of the times when DSM IV tells you to

21 watch out, especially for malingering, is in a

22 medical/legal situation; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And what is that? What is a medical/legal

25 situation, doctor?

Page 14416

1 A. The medical/legal situation is the situation

2 which a person has to be evaluated, like this

3 situation, for example.

4 Q. So, for instance, if a person, one of my

5 clients --

6 A. Yeah.

7 Q. -- Arthur Brown Jr., a man used to be one of

8 my clients, did not want to go to death row, he might

9 try to feign mental illness?

10 A. It depends.

11 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, this calls for

12 speculation. He is certainly not familiar with an

13 American death row inmate right now and he has not said

14 that he was.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't know why you are

16 allowing me to intervene every time. I think you're

17 becoming a bit awkward. Let him answer the question,

18 it's a simple thing.

19 THE WITNESS: Maybe.


21 Q. Okay, maybe. And --

22 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on).

23 MR. MORAN: No, Your Honour he is currently a

24 resident of death row. But there were four dead bodies

25 to explain away in a robbery, so it was a little

Page 14417

1 tough. Hopefully he'll get a new trial.

2 JUDGE JAN: I think it's essentially intended

3 deceive the other --


5 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, Your Honour, I don't

6 interrupt judges, judges interrupt me. I'm sorry,

7 Judge, go on ahead.

8 JUDGE JAN: Carry on.

9 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Judge.

10 Q. Well, in fact, in one particular diagnosis in

11 the DSM IV, the diagnosis for antisocial personality

12 disorder, that practitioners are especially warned to

13 watch for lies and malingering because people who have

14 antisocial personality disorder tend to be good liars;

15 isn't that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And, in fact, some of them are very

18 personable people?

19 A. Pardon?

20 Q. They're personable? They're nice folks, you

21 enjoy being around them, they've got a nice

22 personality?

23 A. Yea. But you know, the personality disorder

24 in the DSM -- the psychiatrists call it co-mobility,

25 you can have many diagnosis of the same persons

Page 14418

1 together. If I remember well, 60 per cent of the

2 patient diagnose it with one personality disorder at

3 the DSM III and IV had at least another diagnosis in

4 the same section, another personality disorder.

5 Q. It wouldn't be at all uncommon, for instance,

6 to have access to his personality disorders, to have

7 two or three different diagnosis in that same axis,

8 would it? With the first one listed being the primary

9 diagnosis and then becoming --

10 A. Maybe, I didn't do such a diagnosis. I did

11 psychological one and so I am, I am not familiar with

12 that kind of reasoning.

13 Q. And, in fact, basically what your job was,

14 was to do psychological testing --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- to provide to Dr. Lagazzi, to aid him in

17 his diagnosis? Is that a fair assessment of what your

18 job was?

19 A. I did my job and then I gave him -- I gave it

20 to the Defence attorney and then she gave it to Lagazzi

21 yes.

22 Q. Basically you were to provide data for Dr.

23 Lagazzi?

24 A. No, as I said, I didn't speak with about the

25 case to Lagazzi, except for a few phrases, about ten

Page 14419

1 minutes, about Mr. Landzo.

2 Q. Prior to your testing?

3 A. Pardon?

4 Q. Prior to testing?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you've talked to him about it since the

7 testing? I mean, you had dinner with him for crying

8 out loud.

9 A. After doing my report, yes.

10 Q. Okay.

11 MR. MORAN: Fine, thank you very much, Your

12 Honour, I pass the witness.


14 Cross-examined by Mr. Cowles:

15 MR. COWLES: May it please the Court?


17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Cowles:

19 Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Verde. My name is Jim

20 Cowles, I represent the Prosecutor in this matter.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Isn't it true, Dr. Verde, that many criminals

23 have personality disorders?

24 A. Yeah, it can be. Yes, it's true.

25 JUDGE JAN: Also non-criminals.

Page 14420

1 THE WITNESS: You know, personality

2 disorders, they -- people that have personality

3 disorders are more prone to act than the other people,

4 especially the second cluster of DSM IV that's the

5 so-called dramatic cluster, borderline and antisocial

6 and narcissistic, they are prone to act, to have -- to

7 have outbursts of rage and to -- what we call acting

8 out in psychology.

9 Q. Is what you found in Mr. Landzo?

10 A. Not at all. I found a rather maintained

11 capacity to control himself and the situation. But, in

12 some fields, he lacks the reality test. That means he

13 doesn't evaluate well his current situation and

14 reality. Let me make an example. For example, his

15 behaviours towards the guards in the UN detention unit

16 during the test, he behaved with the guards like he

17 were their boss, for example. He said, do that or

18 don't do that and so on. That was, sort of reality

19 test that lacked in that particular field, the field of

20 authority. So -- and I explain it in a psychological

21 way by calling that defence mechanism, the defence

22 mechanism of identification with the aggressor, for

23 example.

24 Q. And that fits your definition, then, that you

25 found narcissism and a capacity in Mr. Landzo to use

Page 14421

1 other people as objects of exploitation?

2 A. Yes, yes, this was an example.

3 Q. Yes. Now, at the end of your testimony, your

4 direct examination with Ms. McMurrey, you gave several

5 opinions concerning Mr. Landzo's -- your opinion of Mr.

6 Landzo's mental condition in 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. That's nowhere addressed or mentioned in your

9 report, is it?

10 A. No, because my report refers to the

11 situation, to his psychological condition, to his

12 present psychological condition, yeah.

13 Q. And I believe you testified that not being an

14 MD, you're not a doctor, your purpose as a psychologist

15 to give test results to a psychiatrist to make a

16 medical diagnosis; isn't that correct?

17 A. Yes, yes, yes.

18 Q. You're not presuming to make a medical

19 diagnosis of Mr. Landzo's condition in 1992, are you?

20 A. It's a complex field. In Italy we had a lot

21 of problems. I am a member of the Chamber of

22 Psychologists in my town and that's a question. We can

23 do psychological diagnosis. We can do it, but we have

24 a sort of a category conflict with the field, yes. But

25 we do. In some way we do.

Page 14422

1 Q. And when you answered Ms. McMurrey concerning

2 her last questions, you specifically stated that your

3 opinion of Mr. Landzo's mental condition in 1992 is

4 pure speculation; isn't that correct?

5 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, that's not what

6 he said in the record. He never mentioned the word

7 speculation. I don't know where the prosecutor is

8 coming up with misstating the record.

9 MR. COWLES: Your Honours, I am looking at

10 the transcript from LiveNote right now, where the

11 witness specifically uses the word that his opinion is

12 speculation as to Mr. Landzo's condition in 1992. I

13 can reference the page and line number from LiveNote.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, the witness is

15 here and can he confirm exactly --

16 THE WITNESS: Yes. Basing, myself, on what I

17 have seen, I can, in a scientific way, try to give an

18 explanation of how he was, for example, six years ago.

19 And I have answered to Mrs. McMurrey that his condition

20 is a rather structural, stable one. It's not a passing

21 condition. It's a condition of personality and has to

22 be traced backwards until his childhood.

23 Q. Are you saying that his personality hasn't

24 changed since childhood?

25 A. It hasn't changed so much because there is a

Page 14423

1 splitting, a division, a splitting in his personality.

2 So, the lower, the basic part is not much changed in my

3 opinion.

4 Q. But my question is, you used the term

5 "speculation," aren't you speculating as to his

6 condition in 1992?

7 A. If speculation means to go from what I see to

8 what I didn't see, because I was not there, it's

9 speculation. But I can say a scientific conclusion,

10 yes.

11 Q. And, in fact, you don't know any of the facts

12 of the case, do you?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You don't know what Mr. Landzo is alleged to

15 have done over a course of time in 1992, do you?

16 A. I have heard that he is accused of some

17 crime, yes, some homicide, murder, yes. I have heard

18 it, but not more, not details. I don't know.

19 Q. How he committed?

20 A. No, no, no.

21 Q. And you did not discuss with Mr. Landzo any

22 facts about what, or accusations, about what --

23 A. No.

24 MR. COWLES: Thank you, that's all I have.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

Page 14424

1 Any re-examination? Before then, I should give you an

2 opportunity to reply to that.

3 Professor, one of your conclusions is that he

4 has an abnormality of mind?



7 conclusions?


9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What are the

10 manifestations of that?

11 THE WITNESS: The manifestation in

12 behaviour?

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, from what you have

14 known about him.

15 THE WITNESS: For example, the proneness to

16 acting out, to aggressiveness. And, for example, the

17 taking the others' clothes and being, being -- you

18 know, we speak of identification. Identification means

19 that you have a father inside and you want to be like

20 him in order to be an adult, for example. And he has

21 not such a capacity, but he tends to put on, to wear

22 the clothes of the others. It's rather like an animal,

23 a chameleon. I don't know if you understand me. I

24 don't know the English word, but it should be minuses,

25 isn't it?

Page 14425

1 MS. McMURREY: Metamorphosis?

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, change colour according to

3 the environment.

4 MS. McMURREY: Chameleon.


6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are those the

7 considerations that you took for determining that he

8 had abnormality of mind?

9 THE WITNESS: No, it's based upon the results

10 of the testing. And I have seen this capacity to put

11 the others close in my testing. And I have seen the

12 two levels, not as a complex mind, but is, rather, a

13 split mind from my testing, yes. It's a formal -- it's

14 a formal coding of the answer of the patient to the

15 test, yes. And it's widely recognised throughout the

16 world that this kind of psychological tools, yes. The

17 Rorschach, I think is the most famous test, projective

18 test in the world. Every people know, or Rorschach,

19 ink blot, yes, I know.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How did you relate that

21 to his behaviour during the period he was a guard?

22 THE WITNESS: Maybe he could, trying to be a

23 perfect guard, in order to, in order to be praised and

24 appreciated by his boss, for example. Because he is --

25 I didn't mention the fact today that he has a deep lack

Page 14426

1 of self-esteem. And in order to have -- to maintain

2 his self-esteem, he has to depend upon the, upon the

3 esteem of another person. So, I don't -- I don't have

4 self-esteem, so I need to have your self-esteem to not

5 to be depressed. And when he lacks the self-esteem,

6 the esteem of the other, he will be depressed and he

7 will be feel feelings of emptiness and void. And all

8 these conclusions, I draw them from my testing.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. Yes, you may

10 proceed.

11 Re-examined by Ms. McMurrey:

12 Q. I want to go back to Dr. Lagazzi's report

13 that Mr. Moran has asked you about.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I don't know, since you only read it for a

16 short period of time, if you can remember, in that

17 report, did Dr. Lagazzi say that, of course, he seemed

18 to not be responding to any stimuli, but Dr.

19 Lagazzi added in that --

20 A. Even Dr. Roorda de Man says that.

21 Q. But Dr. Lagazzi in November of '96 said, I

22 believe that he is manipulating me at that moment. He

23 was able to recognise that, wasn't he?

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. And that's why he didn't continue in that

Page 14427

1 evaluation at that time? I take that back, you can't

2 answer that question, I'm sorry.

3 Now, Mr. Cowles asked you, many criminals

4 have personality disorders. What we're talking about

5 here is not a merely a personality disorder, it's an

6 extreme pervasive disorder that has gone all throughout

7 the life of Mr. Landzo; would that be accurate?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. And I think the key word that you were

10 looking for is pervasive, which means that it covers

11 every facet of his life?

12 A. Yes, certainly.

13 Q. Not just 1992?

14 A. No, no, since he was a child. He had asthma

15 and a big suffering, yes. Especially when it's severe,

16 like I think in this case, Roorda de Man speaks about

17 it.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I mean, are you

19 seriously suggesting that asthma is another

20 contributing factor to this type of behaviour?

21 THE WITNESS: Maybe asthma is caused by -- I

22 don't know, because it's considered a psychosomatic

23 disorder, asthma. And the difficulty to breathe has to

24 do with the relation with the mother. And the -- the

25 child psychiatry has done a lot of research about

Page 14428

1 psychosomatic illnesses and maybe a difficult relation

2 with the mother causes asthma and other difficulties,

3 yes.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is he still asthmatic

5 now?

6 THE WITNESS: I don't know.

7 MS. McMURREY: We have a Dutch doctor coming

8 to address that later on this afternoon who

9 evaluated --

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I know a very good many

11 people who are asthmatic.

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, if you're asthmatic, it

13 does not mean that you are a delinquent.

14 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, can I clear this

15 up? He is not saying that everybody who suffers from

16 asthma has a personality disorder. And would you

17 explain that.

18 THE WITNESS: Asthma is not connected to

19 personality disorder, but it is a condition of intense

20 suffering. And the personality disorder can -- one can

21 have a personality disorder even without asthma, of

22 course, yes.


24 Q. And people can be normal with asthma, without

25 having a personality disorder?

Page 14429

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. But what happens here, asthma was an

3 aggravating factor with someone who started out with a

4 personality disorder?

5 A. Yes, it can be, yes.

6 Q. Going back to many criminals who have

7 personality disorders, we're talking about -- you're

8 evaluation of Mr. Landzo is not based on whether

9 criminals have it, it's based on the individual person

10 because you're not applying this to any criminal

11 conclusion or legal conclusion?

12 A. No, no, no.

13 Q. And the, the word that Mr. Cowles kept saying

14 was, your speculation about 1992, did you really mean

15 to say projection back?

16 A. Yes, maybe, because I -- I didn't do

17 psychological interview to Mr. Landzo. I did speak

18 some minutes before the testing. And I didn't ask him

19 how he was in 1992, like I think all the psychiatrists

20 or expert have made. But I limit myself to the passing

21 of the -- of the testing. So I didn't ask him how -- I

22 didn't recollect an (inaudible).

23 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't understand that last

24 word.

25 A. The latent term is (inaudible).

Page 14430

1 Q. Is that like amnesia?

2 A. Pardon?

3 Q. I am trying to --

4 A. No, no, no, when you ask the patient to say

5 to you how he was and what kind of illness he had and

6 when -- what type -- and when you were born, for

7 example, the life was nice, and then you have

8 everything was normal and what kind of disorders of

9 illness you had and so on.

10 Q. And that kind of study is done by the

11 psychiatrist?

12 A. Yes, that's a physician, yes.

13 Q. But not through psychological testing?

14 A. Yes, even by the psychologist. For example,

15 Roorda de Man did, but I had that, I had the specific

16 task of doing the testing, so I did just that, yes.

17 Q. And the opinions that you came up with

18 earlier, as far as abnormality of the mind, that is

19 based strictly on your clinical diagnosis of

20 international accepted testing procedures, isn't it?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. And, in fact, we met this morning at eight

23 o'clock?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. To decide what we're going to talk about

Page 14431

1 today --

2 MR. COWLES: Your Honour, excuse me, I do

3 object to this, this is not proper re-direct

4 examination.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's not re-examination,

6 is it?

7 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, I have --

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well then, leave it out.

9 MS. McMURREY: This is re-examination.


11 cross-examination?

12 MS. McMURREY: On Mr. Cowles'

13 cross-examination.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What was his question

15 that is ambiguous?

16 MS. McMURREY: He tried to say that he didn't

17 base his opinions on psychological, clinical testing.

18 And what I am trying to say --

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He answered that, that

20 he projected from conclusions he had, he now came to

21 the assumption that it could be -- no, that's what the

22 witness himself said.

23 MS. McMURREY: Mr. Cowles started off his

24 cross about the conclusions --

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it did not arise

Page 14432

1 out of it. He answered your questions and you don't

2 have to go further.

3 MS. McMURREY: I have one more question.

4 Q. The conclusion that I asked you to come up

5 with dealt with mental capacity in 1992. I never asked

6 you to determine mental responsibility, which is a

7 legal conclusion, did I?

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much. Thank

10 you for being here, Dr. Verde.

11 THE WITNESS: Thank you to you.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We're very grateful for

13 your assistance.

14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

15 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, before he leaves, if

16 can I get my report back.


18 MR. MORAN: No, my report from -- whatever

19 her name is.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Roorda de Man.

21 MR. MORAN: Yes.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much, you

23 are discharged.

24 (The witness withdrew)

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's have your next

Page 14433

1 witness, please.

2 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, the Defence

3 calls Elmir Hadzajlic. Your Honour, I want to bring to

4 the Court's attention, I am not sure that the victim

5 and witnesses has him here right this minute. I think

6 that they had projected that he would come after lunch.

7 But he is one of the witnesses who was on the list

8 today -- I mean, right now. He may be here at 2.30

9 instead of right now.

10 THE REGISTRAR: The witness is not

11 available.

12 MS. McMURREY: Then I ask the Court if we

13 just stop a few minutes early and come back with that

14 witness after lunch?

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So you're expecting him

16 after lunch?

17 MS. McMURREY: He is at the Bel Air Hotel.

18 We can get him, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We'll break for lunch

20 and come back after lunch at 2.30.






Page 14434

1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.45 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Mrs.

4 McMurrey, if you're ready. Swear the witness, please.

5 THE WITNESS: Elmir Hadzajlic.

6 MS. McMURREY: You just read that out in open

7 court.

8 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

9 speak the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may take your seat,

11 please.

12 Cross-examined by Ms. McMurrey

13 Q. Would you introduce yourself to the Court,

14 please, what is your name?

15 A. My name is Elmir Miro Hadzajlic, from Konjic.

16 Q. Mr. Hadzajlic, are you having difficulty

17 keeping the headset on your head because you don't have

18 any hair?

19 A. Okay.

20 Q. Okay, it's better? Okay. You met yesterday

21 with me and with Ms. McHenry, didn't you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And I just want to explain to you, you've

24 never testified in court before, have you?

25 A. No.

Page 14435

1 Q. And are you a little nervous about being here

2 today?

3 A. Of course I am, a little.

4 Q. In fact, I think if you could move a little

5 closer to the microphone, or pull the microphone closer

6 to you, we might be able to hear you a little better.

7 A. Is that better?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Still closer, please.

9 MS. McMURREY: The interpreters say a little

10 closer. And I want to explain to you --

11 Q. Now, it's going to be interpreted and I am

12 going to ask you a question, and it's going to be a

13 little while before you can answer me because you

14 listen to the interpretation.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. You and I first met in Konjic, didn't we?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And would you tell the Court what your

19 business is in Konjic?

20 A. I am a private entrepreneur. I deal in trade

21 and catering. I have a couple of private facilities in

22 town.

23 Q. And when you say catering, you have one of

24 the best restaurants in town, don't you?

25 A. You were there.

Page 14436

1 Q. Yes. Yes, that's what I said. You were in

2 the same kind of businesses before the war started in

3 Konjic, weren't you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And when the war started -- after the war

6 started, you left Konjic and went to Split and

7 travelled as a refugee, didn't you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In fact, when you left, you had a large

10 inventory of food and goods and everything and you

11 donated those to the defence cause, didn't you?

12 A. I donated most of those goods for the defence

13 cause.

14 Q. Now, how did you know, or did you know a

15 young man named Esad Landzo?

16 A. Yes. I can't recognise him now, only just

17 managed to recognise him.

18 Q. Well, now that you brought him up, how does

19 he look different today than he did in 1991 and '92

20 when you knew him?

21 A. When I knew him, he was a real child. And

22 now, as far as I can see, he is a grown man.

23 Q. And, you said you knew him in 1991 and '92,

24 how did you come to know Esad Landzo?

25 A. He came to see me. He came to my company

Page 14437

1 with a colleague of his who used the work for me,

2 Zdravko Stipatic, whom we called Tipa (Phon). I needed

3 some assistance. I had some work to be done, I think a

4 truck with goods had arrived, and he brought him along

5 and that is when he started working for me.

6 Q. And when you say he worked for you, he worked

7 for you mainly for food and items to take to his family

8 and you guaranteed that he would have pocket money; is

9 that kind of what your agreement was?

10 A. Yes, we could call it an agreement of that

11 kind because the times were quite unusual then.

12 Salaries were paid in goods. Very often only a smaller

13 share in money. But I gave him whatever he asked for.

14 And he asked for very little.

15 Q. When you say he worked for you, did he come

16 to work for you as a like a guard and a general helper

17 in your warehouse area?

18 MS. McHENRY: I haven't objected in

19 preliminary, but I would ask that counsel not lead.


21 Q. What kind of duties did he perform, Mr.

22 Hadzajlic?

23 A. He did everything, loading, unloading,

24 guarding goods, security of the goods.

25 Q. And can you describe for the Court what kind

Page 14438

1 of worker Esad Landzo was?

2 A. As a worker, he was extremely diligent,

3 honest and hard-working, honest, obedient.

4 Q. In fact, would you say that if you had an

5 opportunity to hire 20 Esad Landzo's, would you do

6 that?

7 A. It would be difficult to find others like

8 him, but I would, indeed, hire them.

9 Q. Was he like the perfect worker for you, the

10 perfect employee?

11 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I am going to

12 object to leading again.

13 JUDGE JAN: He has already answered your

14 question.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: His last answer was more

16 than any you could ask for again.

17 MS. McMURREY: Oh, I could ask for more, Your

18 Honour, but I won't.

19 Q. About how old was Esad Landzo at the time he

20 worked for you?

21 A. I think he was 17 or 18. Believe me, I am

22 not quite sure.

23 Q. Thank you. And when was it about that he

24 came to work for you?

25 A. This was in the middle of 1991, in the first

Page 14439

1 half of 1991.

2 Q. And he worked for you until what period of

3 time?

4 A. I think it was until the 1st of June, 1992.

5 I think it was the 1st of June in '92. I can't recall

6 the exact date.

7 Q. You can't be sure about those dates; is that

8 what you're saying?

9 A. I am not sure.

10 Q. Now, I would like for you -- was Esad Landzo

11 the kind of boy who looked up to you?

12 JUDGE JAN: Naturally, he was a small boy.

13 MS. McMURREY: Yes, but that's the evidence I

14 need to get for the Court, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE JAN: Any boy would look up to his

16 employer.

17 MS. McMURREY: Yes.

18 JUDGE JAN: It's not anything unusual.

19 MS. McMURREY: No, it's not anything unusual,

20 except we're going further with that.

21 Q. In fact, he would do almost anything to

22 please you, wouldn't he?

23 MS. McHENRY: I am going to object again to

24 the leading.


Page 14440

1 Q. Would he do anything, almost anything to

2 please you?

3 MS. McHENRY: I still object to the leading.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What you want is what he

5 was to him as a worker.

6 MS. McMURREY: No, Your Honour, he was more

7 than a worker.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ask him that.


10 Q. Was Mr. Landzo more than a worker for you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In fact, did you even use him to work for you

13 at your house?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what kind of things would Mr. Landzo do

16 for you?

17 A. At home he would do cleaning, washing, fixing

18 the fire for a barbecue, anything that needed to be

19 done, he would do it. And also, he would watch over

20 the house in my absence. And he could use everything

21 he needed in the house. It was at his disposal.

22 Q. And did you have a lot of trust in Mr.

23 Landzo?

24 A. Absolutely.

25 Q. Did he have keys to your facilities, to your

Page 14441

1 shops?

2 A. He slept in the shop.

3 Q. And, in fact, I would like to ask you to tell

4 the Court about the experience you had with Mr. Landzo

5 at your girlfriend's birthday party.

6 A. This was on the 26th of May, 1992, my

7 girlfriend, future wife, was celebrating her birthday.

8 We were celebrating at her place and we ran short of

9 wine. I called him up, he was in my house, and I

10 called him to bring two crates of wine. As soon as I

11 hung up, the shelling of the town started. And I think

12 30 to 40 shells fell around the house of my wife.

13 These shells were of considerable destructive power.

14 And we hid in the cellar. While the shelling

15 continued, somebody started banging on door. None of

16 us dared go out. I went out and saw Esad Landzo who

17 had brought us the wine.

18 Q. And would you tell another -- would you

19 explain to the Court an incident where you went to the

20 front-line to defend Konjic against the Serb attack?

21 A. There was a point in time when all people in

22 town who had arms were called upon to gather closer the

23 front and they came to my restaurant. Esad had an

24 uniform and this Zdravko Stipatic also had an uniform.

25 I saw the two of them and we had an automatic rifle.

Page 14442

1 However, I saw that Zdravko, who was of heavier build

2 and stronger than Esad, was a bit scared, which was

3 only natural, all of us were scared. I took a uniform

4 from Tipa, this is Zdravko Stipatic, and the automatic

5 rifle and I left the two of them in the restaurant and

6 I went to the first line closest to the front. And

7 there were about 50 of us volunteers who had gathered

8 there and we were told that strong Chetnik forces were

9 launching an attack against the town from the direction

10 of Borci. We waited there for an hour to go to the

11 actual front-line, we waited for orders to that effect.

12 In the meantime, both Tipa, and Esad Landzo came

13 unarmed to go with me to the front-line to fight the

14 Chetniks.

15 Q. So they showed up at the front-line without

16 any weapons following you?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. Now, do you consider Mr. Landzo brave?

19 A. I consider him to be extremely brave.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Landzo never told you anything about

21 any physical problems he had, did he?

22 A. He didn't tell me anything about it, I don't

23 recall. Yes, he had a hand that was -- or, rather, his

24 fingers was slightly bent, but this was hardly

25 noticeable.

Page 14443

1 Q. And, as far as you know, he worked and did

2 everything that you requested, including the loading

3 and unloading trucks?

4 A. Yes, he did.

5 Q. Can you explain to the Court why you think he

6 didn't tell you about his physical problems?

7 MS. McHENRY: Objection.

8 MS. MCMURREY: Your Honour, he knows the man

9 very well and he can form an opinion as to why he would

10 not have told him about his problems.

11 MS. McHENRY: If I am allowed to ask him, his

12 opinion as the why Mr. Landzo did some other things,

13 then I won't object.

14 MS. McMURREY: I believe she has a right to

15 ask that question, if he knows, and if he has an

16 opinion.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The answer did not tell

18 him of his handicap.

19 MS. McMURREY: Yes, I think it's very

20 important right now.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, ask him.


23 Q. Why do you think Mr. Landzo didn't tell you

24 about his handicaps?

25 A. I believe that he feared that he might be

Page 14444

1 fired by me. That he wouldn't be able to carry out the

2 tasks I gave him to do because, for instance, we didn't

3 have a forklift, everything had to be unloaded by hand,

4 up to 20 tons of good sometimes.

5 Q. Do you think he may have thought you might

6 have thought less of him?

7 MS. McHENRY: Objection. She asked the

8 question, and the witness answered and now she's

9 leading.

10 MS. McMURREY: Okay, I'll move on, Your

11 Honour.

12 Q. When June of '92 came, you tried to persuade

13 Mr. Landzo to stay with you, didn't you?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. But he left, didn't he?

16 A. Yes. I wanted to persuade him to stay

17 because he was still a child. I wanted to persuade him

18 not to go anywhere so as to save his life. Because,

19 after all, I was a bit older and more mature and I

20 could protect him.

21 Q. And one more question. You have a nickname,

22 don't you that everybody knows you by.

23 A. My name is Elmir Miro, they call me.

24 Q. Thank you very much, Miro.

25 MS. McMURREY: I am going to pass the witness

Page 14445

1 now.

2 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination of

4 this witness?

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I have no

6 questions for this witness.

7 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, we have no

8 questions for this witness.

9 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have two and if I

10 can do it from here, it would be a lot quicker, with

11 court's permission?

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have any

13 questions, you ask.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Moran

15 Q. Sir, you said Mr. Landzo worked for you

16 continually from the first half of 1991 through about

17 the first of June, 1992; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. MORAN: No further questions.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. McHenry, you may ask

21 questions.

22 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry

23 Q. May it please the Court. Good afternoon,

24 sir.

25 A. Good afternoon.

Page 14446

1 Q. Now, sir, when Mr. Landzo worked for you from

2 the first half of 1991 to the middle of 1992, how much

3 did he work for you? I mean, everyday? Most days?

4 Once a week or once a month? Can you give us an idea

5 about that?

6 A. As far as I know, he worked everyday.

7 JUDGE JAN: He was a regular employee, that's

8 what he means.


10 Q. And you don't remember any time when he was

11 gone for three weeks or more, do you?

12 A. No, I don't remember.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Landzo worked with a close friend of

14 his, didn't he? He and a close friend of his, Mr.

15 Landzo both worked for you, correct?

16 A. Yes. Stipatic Zdravko called Tipa.

17 Q. Now, you testified about Mr. Landzo bringing

18 you several crates of wine. Among the other things

19 that Mr. Landzo did was unload items, including TV sets

20 and canned goods; is that correct?

21 A. He did everything from loading, unloading to

22 cleaning, security, guarding the goods and everything

23 else.

24 Q. And among the things that he did was unload

25 items, such as TV sets, correct?

Page 14447

1 A. There were all kinds of goods, TV sets, video

2 recorders, refrigerators.


4 particular significance? He was unloading and

5 unloading.

6 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, I am just

7 trying to get to his physical capacity.

8 Q. Now, sir you already talked about that you

9 didn't notice any difficulties in carrying out his

10 duties with his hand. You didn't notice any problem

11 with his breathing either, did you?

12 A. I didn't notice that he had problems with his

13 hands while working, but one could see that his hand

14 wasn't quite normal. I think it was something like

15 that, but he could conceal that.

16 Q. Now, you didn't notice any problems with Mr.

17 Landzo's breathing, did you?

18 A. I didn't really watch him while he was

19 unloading, nor did I supervise him.

20 Q. But to the extent that you observed him

21 during this time he worked for you, you never noticed

22 any problem with his breathing, did you?

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How many times have you

24 asked this one question? He said he did not.


Page 14448

1 Q. Now, you indicated that you trusted Mr.

2 Landzo. Is it therefore correct that you didn't notice

3 any mental problems with Mr. Landzo?

4 A. I didn't notice any.

5 Q. And, sir, and is it also correct that when

6 the war started, Mr. Landzo ignored your advice and did

7 what he wanted to do and joined the army; is that

8 correct?

9 A. If he had listened to my advice, he would

10 have stayed with me at the time.

11 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Thank you, Your

12 Honours.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?

14 MS. McMURREY: One question, Your Honour

15 Re-examined by Ms. McMurrey:

16 Q. Miro, what your testimony was earlier, you

17 didn't remember the exact dates that Mr. Landzo came to

18 work for you, did you?

19 JUDGE JAN: He already said.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Several times. Several

21 times, almost a year.

22 THE WITNESS: I am not quite sure of the

23 dates. Let me, let me underline that. I am not sure

24 of the dates. Which dates they were, when he started

25 working exactly and when he exactly left I cannot

Page 14449

1 assert with any certainty.

2 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much, Miro, for

3 being here. Thank you. No further questions, Your

4 Honour.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for

6 your testimony. You were very helpful and kind. Thank

7 you. You are discharged now.

8 THE WITNESS: I thank you too.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other witness?

10 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour and I wanted

11 to ask the Court's permission, the next two witnesses

12 are the Dutch doctors who are coming to testify and

13 they're in Ms. Boler's province right now. And we have

14 a new attorney joining us that I would like to have

15 permission to sit in the Court while I go visit with

16 some other witnesses that are here. So if you'll

17 excuse me from the Court and allow Mr. Calvin Sanders

18 to join Ms. Boler while she examines the next two

19 witnesses. Thank you very much.

20 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, with the Court's

21 permission, I would like to be excuse and Mr. Cowles

22 will be handling the next two witnesses.


24 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Who is now leading your

Page 14450

1 witness? Because we have not seen any of them.

2 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, the next witness

3 will be doctor --

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You shall bring him in.

5 (Witness entered)

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is the witness

7 testifying in English?

8 MS. BOLER: Yes, Your Honour. We discussed

9 this earlier. There was --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel switch on the

11 microphone, please. Microphone, please.

12 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, we did make

13 arrangements for a Dutch interpreter, but he told me

14 just a few minutes ago that he is comfortable

15 testifying in English. Is that your preference? There

16 is a Dutch interpreter directly bind you. What would

17 be your preference?

18 THE WITNESS: I don't think it's necessary.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The witness speaks for

20 himself.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, introducing your

22 new counsel.

23 MS. BOLER: You want me to do that now before

24 he is sworn?


Page 14451

1 MS. BOLER: Your Honours, I would like to

2 introduce to you, Mr. Calvin Sanders. Mr. Sanders is a

3 lawyer from New York City and been practising about 14

4 years.

5 MR. SANDERS: That's correct.

6 MS. BOLER: And just about a week ago had an

7 opportunity to meet Mr. Sanders, and since we needed a

8 legal assistant, we invited him to join our team. He

9 was here in The Hague already taking a course in

10 international criminal law. He is happy the join us

11 and we're happy to have him.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Welcome to the Landzo

13 team and I hope you'll be very helpful to them.

14 MR. SANDERS: Good afternoon, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Swear the witness,

16 please.

17 WITNESS: Barry Haeseker

18 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

19 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

20 truth.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may take your seats,

22 please.

23 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, before I begin --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 Microphone, please.

Page 14452

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Your microphone.

2 MS. BOLER: Sorry. Before we begin, may I

3 just ask the usher if he will give the witness a copy

4 of his report and his curriculum vitae. And I also

5 have copies for everybody else. It's of the report.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Document D 54/4.

7 Examined by Ms. Boler:

8 Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Haeseker.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. And thank you for coming today. Would you

11 please begin by stating your name for the Court.

12 A. Do I have to stand?

13 Q. No.

14 A. My name is Barry Haeseker.

15 Q. And how are you employed, Dr. Haeseker?

16 A. I am presently employed by the main hospital

17 of the Hague, Leyenburg Hospital. And I am also

18 working in the hospital for sick children and the

19 rehabilitation, plastic surgeon.

20 Q. And what percentage of your practice is

21 devoted to plastic surgery, to hand surgery?

22 A. Well, that's about 40 per cent.

23 Q. And what types of things do you do in your

24 practice as a plastic surgeon for hands?

25 A. On hands, we do in congenital hand defects,

Page 14453

1 all kind of injury to hands, burns to hands and disease

2 of the hands, like the (inaudible) rheumatoid disease,

3 et cetera.

4 Q. Let me ask you a little bit about your

5 educational background. Can you tell the Court what

6 your educational background is?

7 A. Well, I was born in Amerongen, the centre of

8 this country. And I was educated in Harlem, in

9 Amsterdam. And there I went to secondary school.

10 Afterwards, I went to the medical school in Amsterdam,

11 until 1970. And then I went to the tropics, to Malawi

12 for three years as a district medical officer.

13 Afterwards, I came back, did my general training in

14 general surgery and plastic surgery. First in Delft

15 and then later in Wales, in Chepstow for another year.

16 And then the main education in plastic surgery was for

17 three years in Rotterdam.

18 Q. And how long have you been practising at the

19 Leyenburg Hospital where you are now?

20 A. Since 1982.

21 Q. And let me draw your attention back to, I

22 guess, a couple of months ago at this time. Did I

23 contact you at some point and ask you if you would be

24 available to be a witness in this capacity before the

25 tribunal?

Page 14454

1 A. Yes, you did.

2 Q. And, as a part of that, did you go to the UN

3 Detention centre and have a visit with Mr. Landzo?

4 A. I did, yes.

5 Q. And did you then write a report about the

6 findings after having that visit with Mr. Landzo?

7 A. Yes, I wrote a short report.

8 Q. You wrote it in Dutch actually, correct?

9 A. Dutch, yeah.

10 Q. And I have shown you a copy of the

11 translation?

12 A. Yes, you did.

13 Q. And is that translation of your report an

14 accurate report of what you stated?

15 A. Well, I just saw -- there are a few misprints

16 that I saw, but not too much.

17 Q. Is it anything that substantially changes

18 your report?

19 A. No, not substantial.

20 Q. I'll give you an opportunity to point those

21 things out. And, Your Honours, at this time, I would

22 like to introduce the report into evidence.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Has the Prosecution seen

24 it?

25 MS. BOLER: Yes, the prosecution has seen it.

Page 14455

1 MR. COWLES: If it's the one page report

2 that's very short, we do have that, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's hear the

4 correction.

5 THE WITNESS: The correction -- well, I just

6 saw today, I saw, for example, some misprints, like

7 treatment I saw over there. So that was not exactly

8 what I had said. I have the original here, that is the

9 Dutch one. Overall, I think the same.

10 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, I am going to go

11 through the report with him and --

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What we expect to be

13 admitted is the corrected version. The version which

14 the expert has corrected has his report, not the one

15 which has errors, which he complains about.

16 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, we discussed this

17 report earlier today and, perhaps, I could have him do

18 what Dr. Verde did a little while ago is to just in his

19 handwriting tell me the translation.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We'll follow his reading

21 of the report and we'll see where the correction lies

22 and we'll correct it. And then he'll admit it, so then

23 we'll define our report and that is the report he is

24 submitting.

25 MS. BOLER: We'll are to admit it into

Page 14456

1 evidence after we've gone through it.


3 MS. BOLER: That will be fine.

4 Q. All right. So you --

5 A. Oh, yeah, contractions was there, it was

6 contractors, but that is what I saw, and that's not

7 exactly the same.

8 MS. BOLER: We'll go through this report and

9 I'll give you an opportunity to correct anything that

10 you see. I believe the one you're talking about now is

11 about two-thirds of the way down, where the first line

12 says, "contractors," correct?

13 A. Yeah, that's right.

14 Q. And it should say contractions?

15 A. Contractions.

16 Q. You made this report based on a discussion

17 that you had with Mr. Landzo at the UN Detention

18 Centre, correct?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. In the report you mentioned how the accident

21 occurred and how he actually sustained the hand

22 injury. Can you tell the Court what you learned about

23 the hand injury?

24 A. Well, he told me that he had a quarrel with

25 his father in 1991 and that he had a knife in his hand

Page 14457

1 and a clenched fist and that he hit the wall, he

2 stabbed the wall with it. Then he got some cuts in

3 Finger 2, 3, 4 and 5 on the right hand. And in the 2nd

4 and 3rd hand was very superficial, skin only. And in 4

5 and 5 he had a damage of the flexortendons. And in the

6 5th also, probably of the -- of the nerve, on the

7 radial side. And those two, the fingers, 4 and 5, were

8 treated in a kind of a Kleinert way in Yugoslavia.

9 Q. Can you describe what the Kleinert technique

10 is?

11 A. Well, it's kind of a direct operation in the

12 area what we call "No Man's Land" that is within the

13 flexortendon sheaf. And there you have to stitch it up

14 properly and do a very good after treatment with a

15 rubber bandage through the nail. And you fix that

16 through the wrist, so you can practice without really

17 involving the tension on the knot.

18 Q. And what was your understanding of the

19 treatment that he did receive in Yugoslavia?

20 A. That is a specialised -- it is a specialised

21 type of treatment and they don't call it "No Man's

22 Land" for nothing. It is someone's land. It is for

23 plastic hand surgeons who are doing that often. If you

24 don't do that very often and give not a good after

25 treatment, then it all can become fixed. It will heal

Page 14458

1 the tendons, but it will not work very properly.

2 Q. What is your understanding of the after

3 treatment that he received there?

4 A. Well, what I do understand, it was not a very

5 good after treatment due to conditions of the country

6 in that time.

7 Q. If he had been treated by you, for example,

8 if you had been the initial treating physician, what,

9 perhaps, might have been different with the results of

10 that injury?

11 A. Well, you're never sure, of course. I

12 haven't seen the initial wound so I have to guess a

13 little bit. But, if it was a clear cut, damage of the

14 4th and the 5th finger, then of the 4th finger

15 prognosis is normally good and the 5th finger is a

16 difficult finger because everything is small over there

17 and that could be less better than the 4th, but the 4th

18 should be all right to function.

19 Q. You also discussed some possibilities for

20 treatment in the future and how that might affect it.

21 Could you just briefly tell the Court what might be

22 available?

23 A. Well, there is also a little bit of pain in

24 the 5th finger due to neuromyal formation. I just

25 forgot to mention that.

Page 14459

1 Q. Can you explain what neuroma is?

2 A. Neuroma is a painful little tumour due to

3 damage or anything else, what can cause a lot of pain

4 by touch and that's normally due to damage on the

5 nerve. And I don't know exactly if the nerve was

6 repaired in Yugoslavia because they needed a

7 microscope.

8 Q. Were you able to feel that neuroma when you

9 did the physical examination?

10 A. Yes, you can feel it, yeah.

11 Q. Did I understand you to say that it was on

12 the 5th digit only, or is there a neuroma in both the

13 4th and the 5th digit?

14 A. No, it was a local pain by pressure in the

15 5th finger, not in the 4th.

16 Q. You also mentioned a type of amputation, can

17 you explain --

18 A. When you want to do something to give a

19 better function of the hand, yeah. The 4th finger, I

20 think you can still do something about it by doing a

21 secondary repair of the tendons. The 5th finger, it

22 has a bad prognosis and -- well, you can amputate it,

23 it's very drastic, of course. You can do a partial

24 amputation. You can also make a joint stiff, an

25 arthrodesis as we call it.

Page 14460

1 Q. What is the advantage of doing an amputation

2 to that 5th digit?

3 A. Well, if it is just in the way, you can

4 sometimes better get it off and you feel a bit better.

5 But it's very drastic, you don't do it normally, but

6 it's a possibility.

7 Q. Let me go on. If you'll follow me in your

8 report, you'll see a Capital D and a Capital R. And

9 then can you explain what the Capital D is?

10 A. D is diagnosis and R is treatment. And what

11 the diagnosis was flexortendon damage to 4th and the

12 5th finger.

13 Q. Can you explain what flexortendon damage is,

14 if it's anything other than what that you've already

15 discussed?

16 A. No, I think I discussed already. But there

17 are two tendons in each finger with the exception of

18 the thumb. And we call it profundus et superficialis.

19 That's also a misprint, it should read superficialis

20 with an F. And so means a superficial tendon and a

21 deep tendon. And they were both cut. And that is the

22 diagnosis: They were cut at that time. There's

23 probably also vascular damage due to an artery in the

24 finger and nerve damage in Digit 5. And the arm means

25 treatment. Well, the flexortendons has been stitched,

Page 14461

1 but, well, we're not very sure that there is any after

2 treatment, probably not a good after treatment and

3 follow up. And there is a nerve damage and I don't

4 know if it was really treated or not at that time.

5 Q. So that was the translation there where it

6 says, "not treated" and question mark, that was a

7 correct translation?

8 A. Yeah, only a few misprints in the

9 superficialis, et cetera.

10 Q. I am just asking the reason that there is a

11 question mark there is that you're not sure what--

12 A. I am not sure.

13 Q. --treatment he received?

14 A. No, no, no.

15 Q. Now let's go down to where it says

16 "contractors" in 4 and 5. And your correction is that

17 it should be contractions?

18 A. Yeah, contractions.

19 Q. Would you explain what the PPD and the et

20 cetera means --

21 A. PPD means the palm or pulp distance. And

22 that is the difference between the pulp of the finger,

23 the end of the finger and the distil palm crease. And

24 this is then the PPD, the distance between the palm and

25 the pulp over there. Normally you should get your hand

Page 14462

1 with full flexion, it should be a PPD0 because you can

2 get it right in the hand. If it is less, it means

3 there is something still wrong, you cannot flex it

4 completely. And here was a PPD of 2 and 4, so he

5 cannot open his hand completely and there was a PPD --

6 5 is one half, so it still opens up a little bit.

7 Q. All right. On the next line you have, "2PD,

8 rather good." Would you explain that?

9 A. Yeah, that is a two point discrimination.

10 That means you can discriminate between one or two

11 points. If you put one pin on a hand, you feel it as

12 one pin. If you put two very close to each other at a

13 certain time when it's coming too short, you cannot

14 distinguish anymore between one point or two points.

15 And there is a critical distance in between. If there

16 is a lot of nerve damage completely, then you cannot

17 distinguish with a very high number. But here it was

18 still quite good.

19 Q. When you --

20 A. He could still feel quite all right, not too

21 good, but not too bad too.

22 Q. All right. Would you explain the cold

23 intolerance in 4 and 5?

24 A. Cold intolerance means there has been some

25 damage to the artery or to the nerve. And then you can

Page 14463

1 react to the cold, if you put ice on the finger, for

2 example, you get some pain in the fingers. That means

3 cold intolerance.

4 Q. And the local pressure and pain scar?

5 A. Yeah, the local pressure means when you put

6 your finger on the 5th finger, on the radial side, that

7 means near the thumb, this side, there was local pain

8 due to the damage of the nerve. And it was in the

9 direction of the scar. There is a scar. Here was one

10 scar and there was one scar. Scar tissue is still a

11 bit solid and especially if the nerve is right under

12 it, you get more pain if you press on it.

13 Q. And you were able to tell that by doing some

14 pressing on his hand, correct?

15 A. Just local pressing and then he feels pain,

16 he reacts on pain.

17 Q. What kind of reaction did he have from the

18 pain?

19 A. He said it was painful.

20 Q. All right. The last statement there where

21 you have, "Compare measurements of Strength I and R,"

22 was that a reference to what more you could do if he

23 were able to come to your hospital?

24 A. Yeah, but first this was for my personal

25 note, so it was a remembrance for myself and it means

Page 14464

1 strength, left and right. Should be an L, the I. And,

2 but you can measure, for example, pinch you can measure

3 between the first and the second finger. And you can

4 measure the force of a fist to the left and right side

5 and you compare it and there is always some difference

6 because you have left and right-handed people, but you

7 have some idea. But it is mainly for these fingers and

8 the fist.

9 Q. So are you saying that you have equipment at

10 your hospital that can do those kinds of tests, you

11 just were not able to do those tests at the detention

12 centre, is that correct?

13 A. Yeah, that's right.

14 Q. Your Honour, at this time, I would like to

15 reurge and ask the Court to admit this report into

16 evidence.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We could admit it, but

18 you have not indicated the purpose of the examination

19 itself. You haven't even asked him. Of why he examine

20 him. You have no reasons for sending him to

21 examination.

22 MS. BOLER: Certainly I did.

23 Q. When I called you and told you that I would

24 like for you to testify here, I asked you to go and do

25 an examination, correct?

Page 14465

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. And what was the purpose of that

3 examination? What did you think that -- why did you

4 think that you would be doing that examination?

5 A. Oh, you asked me if it was possible to hold a

6 stick and use violence with it for a substantial time.

7 Q. And if a stick -- well, let me say, Your

8 Honour, with that qualification, may I now ask that it

9 be admitted into evidence with the corrections that he

10 has made that "contractors" should say "contractions"

11 and "superlicialis" should say "superficialis"? With

12 those two corrections, Your Honour, may I ask that it

13 be admitted into evidence, his report?

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can tender it into

15 evidence.

16 MS. BOLER: So it is admitted?

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is your report

18 after examining the accused person?

19 THE WITNESS: That's my report. I wrote one

20 for myself. This is translation of it.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, with the

22 corrections, it represents exactly what you intended

23 to?


25 JUDGE JAN: I think there is another error on

Page 14466

1 some of the translation. In the second last line of

2 his report, "eventually in Leyenburg," if -- I think

3 should be "when."

4 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, if I may, I asked

5 him about the possibility of coming to the hospital and

6 what other kinds of tests that they can do.

7 JUDGE JAN: Look at the sentence, it doesn't

8 read.

9 MS. BOLER: Doctor, are you comfortable --

10 A. Well, this was just for my own as a

11 rememberness because if you were there at the hospital

12 for this lung function, then I go in the same time, do

13 this -- palm reading of the hand.

14 Q. So you would be comfortable exchanging if for

15 when?

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's not part of his

17 report, it's just to remind him.

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's not part of my

19 report. You can just omit the line, I think.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, he has stated

21 everything that he examined.

22 MS. BOLER: All right.

23 Q. All right. Let me ask you just a few

24 specific questions. If a person with his hand injury

25 held a stick in his hand and hit somebody, would he

Page 14467

1 feel pain?

2 A. Yeah, I think he will feel pain.

3 Q. And if he held the stick with, perhaps, these

4 three fingers and hit somebody, would there still be

5 pain from the pressure on this 4th and 5th finger?

6 A. I think you don't hold it this way. I think

7 you hold a stick with all your fingers and it can still

8 open it up and so he can hold it. But, still, you will

9 have some pain over there.

10 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, I pass the witness.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How comfortable would

12 somebody with this defect be able to hold a stick and

13 hit someone with it?

14 THE WITNESS: Well, I think you can still

15 hold a stick with that, but it is very difficult to let

16 off your grip because it is two fingers are impaired,

17 three fingers are normal. The three fingers you can

18 still hold it, but with five you hold it not very

19 stable, I think. He will be handier with the other

20 hand, of course. But it is his right hand. He can

21 still hold it.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination of

23 this witness?

24 THE INTERPRETER: We seem to be having some

25 problems. Mr. Delalic's defence has no questions for

Page 14468

1 this witness.

2 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, the defence of Mr.

3 Zdravko Mucic has no questions for this witness.

4 MR. KARABDIC: The Defence of Hazim Delic has

5 no questions for this witness.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Olujic is repeating

7 that the Defence of Mr. Zdravko Mucic has no questions

8 for this witness.

9 There may be an error in my statement. I

10 said the Defence of Mr. Delalic and this has not gone

11 done in the transcript. The microphone is not on,

12 counsel.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The microphone probably

14 was not on.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: To make sure that it goes

16 down in the transcript, my microphone doesn't seem to

17 be working. I just wanted to say that the Defence of

18 Mr. Delalic has no questions for this witness. Thank

19 you.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Cowles, you can

21 proceed with your cross-examination.

22 MR. COWLES: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Cowles

24 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Haeseker.

25 A. Good afternoon.

Page 14469

1 Q. My name is Jim Cowles, I represent the

2 Prosecution in this matter. Dr. Haeseker, did you ever

3 review any past medical records of Mr. Landzo?

4 A. Yes, I saw a few.

5 Q. These include his hand injury records?

6 A. Yes, he did.

7 Q. Based on your examination of Mr. Landzo's

8 hand, I believe you told Ms. Boler that the 4th finger,

9 the 4th digit is, in your words, all right to

10 function?

11 A. No, it was not completely all right to

12 function.

13 Q. Could you explain then what you meant?

14 A. Well, I told here there is a PPD of the 4th

15 finger of 2 centimetres. It means he cannot get the

16 finger completely in the hand. It was not a complete

17 normal function.

18 Q. So he can't touch the palm?

19 A. He can't touch the palm.

20 Q. Did you ever perform any test yourself on Mr.

21 Landzo's hand or his ability to use his right hand?

22 A. Well, I just saw him over there in Scheveningen

23 once only and I asked him to do all the functions, to

24 show to me what the functions were and that's what I

25 wrote down.

Page 14470

1 Q. You have no knowledge, of course, of the

2 facts of case of what Mr. Landzo is alleged to have

3 done in 1992, do you?

4 A. I have not, no.

5 Q. You've never seen him hold, for instance, a

6 baseball bat?

7 A. No, I haven't.

8 Q. Never seen him hold a rifle or carry a

9 rifle?

10 A. No, I haven't.

11 Q. Have you ever seen him carry any objects of

12 any weight at all?

13 A. He brought a ventilator.

14 Q. A what?

15 A. He brought a ventilator.

16 Q. He carried that okay?

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. And are you aware that he served in the war

19 in Bosnia?

20 A. I am aware.

21 Q. Are you aware that he was never discharged

22 for any sort of medical disability?

23 A. No, I do not.

24 Q. And he shook hands with you, in fact, didn't

25 he?

Page 14471

1 A. He did, yeah.

2 MR. COWLES: Thank you very much, I have no

3 questions.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?

5 MS. BOLER: Just one brief question, Your

6 Honour.

7 Re-examined by Ms. Boler

8 Q. Dr. Haeseker, Mr. Cowles asked you if -- you

9 mentioned that he carried in a little ventilator, could

10 you describe the size of that, do you recall?

11 A. It was a big fan on wheels.

12 Q. That was able to be pushed on wheels?

13 A. It was about this. It was on wheels, yeah.

14 Q. And do you recall whether he pushed it with

15 his right hand or his left hand?

16 A. I am not sure any more.

17 MS. BOLER: No further questions, I pass this

18 witness.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much, Dr.

20 Haeseker, you've been quite helpful. This is all we

21 have for you. You are discharged.

22 (The witness withdrew)

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have your next

24 witness.

25 MS. BOLER: The next witness is Dr. Lammers,

Page 14472

1 Ernst Lammers.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, kindly swear the

3 witness.

4 WITNESS: Ernst Lammers

5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may take your seat,

8 please.

9 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, at this time, I ask

10 the usher's assistance to give Dr. Lammers a copy of

11 his CV and his report. And I have extra reports for

12 the registry.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Curriculum vitae D 55/4 and

14 the report D 56/4. .

15 Examined by Ms. Boler

16 Q. Good morning -- I mean, good afternoon, Dr.

17 Lammers, and thank you for coming here to testify. Let

18 me ask you to begin by stating your name for the Court,

19 please?

20 A. My name is Ernst Lammers.

21 Q. How are you currently employed?

22 A. Hospital Leyenburg in The Hague for about two

23 years.

24 Q. What is your position there, what kind of

25 position do you have there?

Page 14473

1 A. Pulmonary doctor, chest physician, a staff

2 member.

3 Q. And what kind of pulmonary problems do you

4 treat?

5 A. I treat every area of the pulmonary diseases

6 in my hospital.

7 Q. Could you describe just a couple of those to

8 the court?

9 A. For instance, COPD, asthma, lung cancer, I

10 think, the main issues.

11 Q. Could you define a percentage of your

12 practice to asthma and breathing difficulties?

13 A. Asthma and breathing difficulties will be

14 about 70 -- 60 to 70 per cent of my practice.

15 Q. Let me back up and ask you a little bit about

16 your education. Would you explain to the Court what

17 your education is and your medical education?

18 A. My background, about my medical education, I

19 become a doctor in 1990. Did my study at Nijmegen for

20 about seven years. I practised my study to become a

21 chest physician for two years in Almelo, a hospital. I

22 did study of internal diseases, internal medicine. And

23 after two years in '92 I ended my study for four years

24 in Enschede and where I developed to a chest

25 physician. So I am a doctor now for about eight years,

Page 14474

1 nine years, nine years already.

2 Q. And, excuse me, I see from your CV that you

3 also have faculty experience. Can you tell me what

4 that is?

5 A. Faculty experience is, I think you mean that

6 I have done some course in France, in Marseilles, for

7 instance. That's a faculty where you have the ability

8 to explore the lung with instruments and it's a

9 specific way of doing treatment and to make diagnosis.

10 Q. At the bottom of the page of your CV, it says

11 bronchoavcolaire. Could you explain that to me?

12 A. That's a way of, put some water in the lung

13 and to examine the fluid which is prepared after this.

14 And it gives you an impression about a disease of the

15 lung, what kind of disease it is and about activity of

16 the disease at that moment.

17 Q. Just a minute ago you told me that you

18 estimated approximately 60 to 70 per cent of your

19 practice has to do with asthma and breathing?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Difficulties. Can you describe for me -- if

22 I just had a very limited understanding of asthma, can

23 you explain to me what asthma is?

24 A. Asthma is a disease where the lungs do have a

25 reaction on, for instance, cold air, exercise, where

Page 14475

1 the airways will constrict and where you have mostly an

2 obstructed -- and problems with breathing out. And the

3 patient, or the man will feel that as a shortness of

4 breath. And it can be adduced also by medicine, for

5 instance, aspirin. And mostly with exercise, if you

6 were doing something that the airways will be

7 constricted and that you have the feeling of shortness

8 of breath. So the treatment of asthma is also to give

9 medicines to open the airways, to breathe freely.

10 Q. Do most asthma patients -- is this something

11 that happens at birth or in childhood or can it just

12 happen any time?

13 A. It can happen any time. Mostly it's that

14 asthma patients do have the problems from birth

15 already. And also, a lot of people have allergy

16 problems, which also start in -- at the birth age. And

17 people, if they can have asthma later on, for instance,

18 about 30 or 40 years old, mostly it's caused by

19 smoking.

20 Q. When someone presents themselves to you in an

21 emergency room situation, can you describe what an

22 asthmatic reaction, or correct my terminology, but when

23 someone must come because of their asthma to the

24 emergency room, what kind of symptoms do they display?

25 A. If someone is coming to the emergency room

Page 14476

1 with an attack of asthma, asthma, you have an enormous

2 constriction of airways, so you have an enormous

3 problem to breathe out because the air will stay in the

4 lungs. That cause a lack of oxygen in the blood, so

5 people, if there is an enormous lack of oxygen, they

6 will get blue, blue colour, what you can see, for

7 instance, at the nail, at the tongue and sometimes at

8 the skin. They will have a lot of problems with the

9 heart, frequency is enormous, about 200. They will

10 have problems with not only the oxygen, but also the --

11 called the dioxides, which you normally breathe out.

12 Which if there are no change in the asthma check by

13 treatment, it is possible that a patient can be

14 conscious, unconscious and it is necessary to put the

15 patient on the intensive care and to assist him with

16 the breathing with mechanical ventilation.

17 Q. In this country, when you treat asthma

18 patients, is there a certain percentage of that group

19 that needs medication on a constant basis, or do the

20 great majority need medication on a constant basis?

21 How does the medication work?

22 A. We split up the degree of asthma. You have

23 very mild asthma and you have very severe asthma.

24 People who have severe asthma or serious asthma, they

25 always need medicine, everyday, every time. If you

Page 14477

1 have very mild asthma, sometimes it's necessary to take

2 medicine about once or twice a week. But I, as a chest

3 physician in addition in hospital, I see people who use

4 almost every day, the medicine for the asthma.

5 Q. And what about --

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please, let's go to the

7 examination of Landzo and his history of asthma.

8 MS. BOLER: All right, Your Honours. I

9 understand the direction. I just was wanting to know

10 how he treated asthma patients. But, I'll --

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, that's not what you

12 brought him here for.

13 MS. BOLER: Well, eventually I'll be asking

14 him to -- and shortly I will be going into the

15 questions directly as related to what he knows about my

16 client, but that's obviously --

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's not why you

18 invited him.

19 MS. BOLER: That's true, Your Honour, but

20 since he was not there when Esad Landzo was little and

21 he was not there during in war, then I felt I just

22 needed to ask some general questions about asthmatic

23 patients, but I'll move on.

24 Q. When I first contacted you to come and

25 testify at this tribunal, one of the things that I

Page 14478

1 asked you to do was go to the UN Detention Centre and

2 visit with Esad Landzo there, correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you did so on June the 2nd of this year

5 and also on June the 6th; is that also correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. As a result of your visit, you wrote a report

8 to me, detailing what you found in that visit, correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. And you actually sent this report to me by

11 e-mail and so there is no -- there was no translation

12 from Dutch to English?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. And so if this was printed out on my

15 computer, and you've had an opportunity to glance over

16 it, is this exactly what you typed out and wrote to me?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. And so it's a --

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You've not got it

20 translated?

21 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, there was not a need

22 for it to be translated because he actually wrote the

23 report in English and this is actually his writing of

24 that report.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In English, is it?

Page 14479

1 MS. BOLER: In English.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought you said it

3 was in Dutch, that's why I asked that question.

4 MS. BOLER: What I intended to say was there

5 was no need for a translation from Dutch to English

6 because he wrote it in English the first time he wrote

7 it. Well, I don't know. Let me back that up.

8 Q. The only report that you've given me was this

9 report, exactly this one?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Your Honour, at this point, I would move that

12 this report be admitted into evidence.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Show it to me.

14 MS. BOLER: With the usher's assistance --

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ask him if he believes

16 this is the report he wrote, and he can say.

17 MS. BOLER: I believe I did ask him if this

18 was the report --

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Does he have it now?

20 MS. BOLER: Yes, Your Honour, I gave it to me

21 with the usher's assistance. He does have it before

22 him. So --

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is it the report that

24 you sent to her?

25 THE WITNESS: Yes, this is the report I sent.

Page 14480

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, it's admitted.

2 MS. BOLER: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Okay. I am going to take just a few minutes

4 to go over some of the things that you put in your

5 report which were then a reflection of the interview

6 that you had with Mr. Landzo. Okay, let's go down to

7 the part that says, "medical history."

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, any information that you got from this

10 report, the majority of the information came directly

11 from what Mr. Landzo told you, correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. And did I also show you a short report that I

14 had from a hospital in his hometown of Konjic?

15 A. You did.

16 Q. All right. You say that he had chronic

17 bronchitis from the age of three months. You gave a

18 lot of testimony about asthma. So let me also ask you

19 about the bronchitis and if you can just explain to me

20 how bronchitis differs from asthma?

21 A. It's very familiar to asthma, chronic

22 bronchitis will say that the airways are not only

23 constricting sometimes, but that the airways itself are

24 constantly affected by, for instance, bacterias or

25 viruses, where you have a thickening of the airways.

Page 14481

1 And that's the reason why chronic bronchitis has the

2 problem that the airways are more sensitive to

3 influences on the airways where the result will be the

4 restricting of the airways. So, the only difference is

5 that asthma has not a chronic infection, infection of

6 the airways and only the constriction in chronic

7 bronchitis, the combination of these two.

8 Q. And do lay people sometimes use

9 interchangeably bronchitis and asthma?

10 A. Sorry?

11 Q. Do lay people sometimes interchange the two,

12 say somebody has bronchitis or somebody has asthma?

13 Are they ever used interchangeably to mean the same

14 thing?

15 JUDGE JAN: In the same sense, you mean?

16 MS. BOLER: Yes.

17 THE WITNESS: Is it interchangeable, yeah,

18 that's correct.


20 Q. For physicians, I am sure there are

21 differences between the two things, correct?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. But they're in the same family of respiratory

24 illnesses; is that a fair statement?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 14482

1 Q. All right. Let me move down to where you

2 discuss an allergy for dust, parrots and feathers and

3 then you have in parenthesis, 1996. Can you explain

4 that?

5 A. That's a test we do in the blood to see if

6 people are allergic. Indeed, now it's dust, parrots

7 and feathers, but we're also looking to other issues.

8 But if there is an allergy, we know as physician that

9 you can have a lot of problems if you have contact with

10 these items because it will also cause the restriction

11 of the airways.

12 Q. And does this indicate -- did Mr. Landzo tell

13 you that he had a blood test to see what he might be

14 allergic to in 1996?

15 A. Yeah, it is possible that -- yeah, you can

16 see that in the blood test, to see if someone is -- has

17 allergy. I didn't see the result of the test, but

18 that's what he said and this is something we do to

19 examine the asthma patients or bronchitis patients,

20 what the cause is of their complaints of asthma and

21 bronchitis.

22 Q. Okay. In the family history, you've

23 mentioned that his mother's father had asthma. Is it

24 common that asthma runs in a family?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 14483

1 Q. The next thing is history and you've got,

2 "Last ten years not so many complaints of bronchia and

3 asthma." Did he tell you much about the number of

4 complaints he had as a young person?

5 A. Yes, a lot.

6 Q. And do you recall what types of complaints he

7 discussed, his treatment as a young person?

8 A. His treatment, yeah, were treatments we don't

9 know here in my country or --

10 Q. Are you saying that the ways in which he was

11 treated that he discussed with you --

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. -- that's not the way you would do it here?

14 A. No, never.

15 Q. Can you give me a comparison of these types

16 of treatment as to what you would do now?

17 A. Yeah. What we do now is treat with medicine

18 to open the airways, to prevent the constriction of the

19 airways. And the other treatment of medicine is what I

20 told was that if the airways are affected chronic, they

21 are hypersensitive, and we give medicine to press down

22 the chronic infection of the airways, so that the

23 hypersensitivity will disappear. And that you have as

24 a patient not the problems you normally have the

25 restrictions of the airways, for instance, if you have

Page 14484

1 contact with parrots or if you're doing exercises or

2 whatever.

3 Q. Let me ask you about the next statement that

4 said he sometimes visited the hospital twice a day. Is

5 that correct, twice a day?

6 A. Yes, he told me that.

7 Q. Did he tell you how long that intensity of

8 treatment continued?

9 A. That was not really clear because there were

10 problems to know what they really did at the hospital.

11 But a lot of medicine you can give to asthma will only

12 work for a few hours, so it's possible that if you have

13 problems you can have medicine and a few hours later

14 you will have again the same problems.

15 Q. And you mentioned an injection here, is

16 that -- you treat by injection?

17 A. That's only a part of the patients we treat

18 with injection. If we have not any possibility to give

19 the medicine in the airways, then we give injection.

20 Q. When you say give the medicine in the

21 airways, do you mean by --

22 A. By breathing in, by the patient himself.

23 Q. Let me also ask you about the word

24 "intravenous" that immediately follows injection.

25 Were those two words meant to go together just like a

Page 14485

1 shot, or do you mean some kind of drip that stays in

2 your vein for a period of time?

3 A. No. Just an injection, just after he get the

4 medicine, the needle will get out. It's not something

5 which stayed for some hours.

6 Q. All right. You also mention a paper being in

7 pig grease on his chest, could you explain that?

8 A. That's something I never heard before and I

9 can't find it in any paper anywhere else where this is

10 treatment of asthma or whatever.

11 Q. What did he tell you about why he had to have

12 that?

13 A. He had to have that because of his shortness

14 of breath. Yeah, I can't imagine what it will do, only

15 that it will smell and maybe cause more severe asthma

16 than it was.

17 Q. Did he tell you who arranged for him to have

18 that treatment? Who did that?

19 A. His family, his mother?

20 Q. This was not something that was done in the

21 hospital, this was a home remedy, correct?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. You also discussed his shortness of breath at

24 night. If he had had adequate medication, is this

25 something that could have been controlled?

Page 14486

1 A. To have problems at night will say anything

2 about the degree of asthma. If he has problems of

3 shortness of breath at night, mostly we have to do with

4 asthma. And, yes, indeed, we have now about three to

5 four years medicine to prevent the shortness of breath

6 at night.

7 Q. Did I understand you to say that that

8 medicine has only been available three or four years or

9 that's the length of treatment?

10 A. It's not that we have the medicine three or

11 four years that we only now can treat the shortness of

12 breath at night, but it is an expression of the degree

13 of asthma where we have these medicine as an addition

14 of the regular medicine we have. And then, if people

15 have problems at night, some have -- if they use this

16 medicine, are out of -- you know, shortness of breath

17 at night.

18 Q. In addition to telling you the problems that

19 he had as young person, did he also talk with you about

20 the problems he had during the war because of his

21 asthma?

22 A. Yes, he did.

23 Q. Did he -- I see in your report that he --

24 that you wrote that he couldn't properly walk because

25 he was restricted by his shortness of breath. Can you

Page 14487

1 explain what is meant by that?

2 A. I meant that the complaints he had and to

3 know what severe asthma is, then is exercise very

4 difficult to do, and then you can have a lot of

5 problems with just only walking. If you have problems

6 with walking, now then, you must have severe asthma at

7 that moment because when I talked about degrees of

8 asthma, if you have mild asthma, you can walk. Only if

9 you do a lot of exercises, then you maybe have a little

10 shortness of breath. But if you normally walk and you

11 have already shortness of breath, you must have severe

12 asthma. So it's an indication about the way the asthma

13 was at that moment.

14 Q. You also mentioned Ventilin tablets, what are

15 Ventilin tablets?

16 A. It's a medicine to open the airways and which

17 will, about three to four hours work. And -- a

18 medicine which we used here in the Netherlands about

19 ten, fifteen years ago, where you have a lot of side

20 effects because it must be -- have to be working in the

21 lungs and not in the body and if you take tablets, it

22 will be all in the body and you have a lot of -- yeah,

23 side effects. Ventilin is only medicine to give a

24 widening of your airways in three or four hours and

25 then it's finished. But it is not a way of treatment

Page 14488

1 of asthma it should be. It's only -- you can --

2 similar is if you have a headache, you take aspirin,

3 you don't treat the cause, you only treat the pain for

4 a few hours.

5 Q. You then mention intravenous injections

6 again --

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is this all about?

8 If he has examined the accused and from the stories he

9 gave him, asthma was consistent with that story. What

10 are you posing about the treatment?

11 MS. BOLER: I just wanted to ask some

12 questions about how Mr. Landzo was treated during the

13 war and what types of problems he conveyed the doctor

14 and what types of breathing problems he had at that

15 time. And that's why I was going into this area.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can he testify to that?

17 MS. BOLER: All right, I'll move on.

18 Q. Is Mr. -- Did Mr. Landzo tell you whether he

19 was a smoker or a non-smoker?

20 A. Non-smoker.

21 Q. Briefly explain to me the problems that he

22 may still be having with his breathing while he is with

23 his asthma while he is in detention. Did you all

24 discuss that?

25 A. Yes, I discussed that.

Page 14489

1 Q. Is he being treated properly here?

2 A. Yes, he is being treated properly, yes,

3 indeed.

4 Q. Okay. On the next page, there are just some

5 things that I really don't understand, can you take

6 just a minute to explain.

7 A. Yeah, I will explain that. I brought an

8 instrument, a measure instrument into the prison to

9 have an impression about the obstruction of the

10 airways. The obstruction of the airways is a

11 measurement to see if we have to do with an obstructive

12 lung disease and asthma or chronic bronchitis is an

13 obstructive lung disease. And the numbers which I

14 mention here in this report, if you then compare what

15 is the reference numbers, it's about 70 per cent of the

16 reference numbers he should be have. So we can say

17 that because I measured six times in two different

18 days, that we have to do here with chronic obstructive

19 disease. And the diagnosis, asthma is because also of

20 his medical history.

21 Q. In conclusion, toward the bottom of your

22 report, you state that his lung function shows there is

23 a chronic obstruction of his airways. Is this chronic

24 obstruction of his airways, is that asthma, is that

25 bronchitis or?

Page 14490

1 A. Chronic obstructive disease can also be, for

2 instance, emphysema. Yeah, that's another disease

3 that's also familiar to it, to asthma, or chronic

4 bronchitis. Asthma, if you have mild asthma, you can

5 sometimes measure totally normal values of doing these

6 exercises he did and if you see the values, then you

7 can't talk about obstructive disease. You can only

8 talk about chronic obstructive disease if you measure

9 values which are constantly lower than the reference

10 values. And that situation that you talk about chronic

11 obstruction.

12 Q. Granted it was just an examination that

13 covered a period of two separate visits there, but

14 based on what you saw and the breathing tests and the

15 report that you read and what -- just all the things

16 that you had available to you, is it your diagnosis

17 that, in addition, to chronic obstruction, that this is

18 a person who suffers from respiratory disease?

19 A. That's correct.

20 MS. BOLER: I pass the witness.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the Trial

22 Chamber will rise and reassemble at 4.30, when

23 cross-examination will continue.

24 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 4.30 p.m.

Page 14491

1 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

2 are still under oath. I remind you, sir, that you are

3 still under oath.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination?

5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: We have no questions for

6 this witness, Your Honour.

7 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, we have no

8 questions for the witness.

9 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have a couple.

10 May it please the Court?

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Moran

13 Q. My name is Tom Moran, and I represent a man

14 named Hazim Delic. And I'm going to ask you a few

15 questions and nobody is arguing with your diagnosis. I

16 just want to clear some things up in my own mind.

17 First, with the usher's help -- the usher is

18 gone. If we could show the witness Exhibit D 6/3, I

19 think it is. Doctor, have you seen one of those

20 before?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That's a baseball bat. Given your

23 examination of Mr. Landzo and your diagnosis, in your

24 opinion in 1992, given his physical condition at that

25 time, would it have been possible for him to strike a

Page 14492

1 human body with that, say 200 times in a half hour, or

2 would he likely have some kind of asthmatic attack?

3 A. I cannot say that it isn't possible to do

4 that and that it must be that he had an asthma attack.

5 But the diagnosis say that it is almost the case if you

6 have an exercise which is more than just walking. And

7 you use no medicine at all, that you have a great

8 chance that you have problems of shortness of breath,

9 which will be progressive if the exercise will

10 continue.

11 Q. And hitting something fairly solid, that

12 would be your opinion, the kind of exercise that could

13 cause shortness of breath?

14 A. That could be. If you're not trained, it's

15 an exercise which, indeed, can induce problems of

16 shortness of breath.

17 Q. Okay. Doctor, given your evaluation of his

18 medical condition in 1992 and 1993, could he function

19 in the infantry in close combat in all likelihood?

20 A. If you have this degree of asthma and you and

21 if you don't use medicine at all, it isn't possible at

22 any moment at any condition that you can do all

23 exercise of everything a normal person can do, that's

24 not possible.

25 Q. Okay. So, in your opinion, it would be

Page 14493

1 unlikely that he could function in close combat as an

2 infantry soldier?

3 A. That's very unlikely.

4 Q. Okay. How about doing hard labour, lifting

5 -- unloading 20-ton trucks full of TVs, VCRs, stereos,

6 that kind of thing?

7 A. What do you mean by that question?

8 Q. Could he do it, in all likelihood?

9 A. It depends on the time that he has to do it.

10 Q. That's a fair answer and I won't follow it up

11 because I don't have any further information on that.

12 Last series of questions. I am going to

13 change subjects completely. You're, of course, a

14 physician and there is -- physicians have different

15 specialities. You're in the a psychiatrist, of course?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Or a psychologist --

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We know the evidence he

19 has come to give.

20 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour.

21 Q. Would you agree that asthma is a

22 psychosomatic disorder and that difficulties with

23 breath have to do with your relationship with your

24 mother?

25 A. That's not correct. Asthma is a disease

Page 14494

1 which we have a subscript, we can prove it that if

2 someone has asthma. If you have psychology problems,

3 it can worsening the asthma. And we have what we see

4 if people are under stress or have a relation problems

5 or with work or doesn't matter, whatever. Mostly of

6 the times, it will worsening the asthma.

7 Q. But that's not the cause of the asthma?

8 A. Never.

9 Q. And it would -- the stress would come -- or

10 the asthma attack would come at the same time as the

11 stress; is that fair?

12 A. Stress can cause an asthma attack if there's

13 asthma.

14 Q. And what I am getting at is that the two

15 would tend to come together, the asthma attack and the

16 stress?

17 A. It's possible.

18 Q. Just because my mommy doesn't love me doesn't

19 mean I am not going to have asthma, does it?

20 A. Not at all.

21 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much. I pass the

22 witness, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Questions from the

24 Prosecution?

25 MR. COWLES: May it please the Court?

Page 14495

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Cowles

3 Q. Yes. Dr. Lammers, my name is Jim Cowles and

4 I represent the Prosecution in this matter. Good

5 afternoon?

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 Q. Dr. Lammers, isn't it true that you don't

8 know any of the facts with which Mr. Landzo is charged

9 or alleged to have committed during the course of 1992,

10 do you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And you don't know or you can't say with any

13 kind of medical assurety that if Mr. Landzo did hit

14 someone with that bat a number of times, that he may or

15 may not have developed an asthma attack on that

16 occasion?

17 A. I can't say anything about it.

18 Q. Right. Now, you indicate in your report

19 that, according to Mr. Landzo, that he got an asthma

20 attack at a frequency of ten times a year?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. So that's approximately less than once a

23 month?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. That's not exactly a chronic case of asthma,

Page 14496

1 is it?

2 A. You can have chronic asthma. An attack is

3 just a worsening of the asthma and what you call an

4 attack, but an attack is for someone else different

5 than for another patient. And an attack is something

6 what you feel shortness of breath and you can examine

7 an attack if you are seeing a doctor to try to

8 objective the problems of the asthma is at that

9 moment. So if you say someone has ten times an attack,

10 that can be for another maybe 40 or 50 times a year.

11 An attack is the feeling that you have is shortness of

12 breath.

13 Q. But that's not what he told you, is it?

14 A. He told me about many times that he felt

15 there was an asthma attack. And what he told me was

16 there was a severe asthma attack because when he told

17 people that it was not so worse and he went to the

18 hospital, he got a lot of medicine because it was,

19 indeed, a severe attack because he was not saying that

20 he was more ill than he was at that moment.

21 Q. Right. Well, he never told you that he was

22 ever excused or disqualified or exempt from military

23 duties because of asthma, did he?

24 A. Well, that he had problems with the

25 activities in the army to do his job.

Page 14497

1 Q. He was never excused or made exempt from

2 military service because of asthma, was he, according

3 to your information?

4 A. According to my information, was that

5 sometimes he thought not to do activities what he was

6 asked for because of his shortness of breath.

7 Q. Like what?

8 A. I don't know what activities all, but one of

9 the activities was that he had to go to the front and

10 that walking with his luggage on his back was, yeah, a

11 great problem for him because of his shortness of

12 breath, because of his asthma and that was -- and he

13 had to do that with the other soldiers.

14 Q. He was never exempted or excused from

15 military service, was he?

16 A. Not that I know.

17 Q. And he continued to go to the front and serve

18 as a soldier and a military policeman throughout the

19 war; isn't that correct?

20 A. That can be.

21 Q. Your -- in your conclusion, doctor, you make

22 a statement, "I can't say which moment he can do some

23 activities or he can't."

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Okay. Can you explain that a little bit.

Page 14498

1 You can't say what activities he could or could not

2 have done at a particular time?

3 A. No, the reason I have written that is because

4 if you suffer asthma in a period because it's winter,

5 for instance, that's a period that my asthma patients

6 have problems, doing exercises is much more difficult

7 than, for instance, sometimes in the summer. So it

8 depends on the degree of the asthma what is possible of

9 exercises you can do at the moment. So I cannot say at

10 what time he could do and what kind of exercise.

11 Q. Or, any kind of physical activity?

12 A. Yeah, sometimes it's not possible to do any

13 physical exercise at all.

14 Q. In fact, in warm weather he could probably do

15 a lot more physical activity than in cold weather

16 without experiencing any asthma difficulty; wouldn't

17 you say that's correct?

18 A. Sometimes it's possible because if you have a

19 fair amount of asthma, then it can be the case, but if

20 you have chronic asthma, then if the summer or winter,

21 there will be certainly a difference, but not that you

22 can say that in summer that you don't feel any

23 shortness of breath if you're doing exercises.

24 Q. You indicate in your report of Mr. Landzo

25 that in winter, and big differences of warm and cold?

Page 14499

1 A. That's correct. That's a very familiar cause

2 of problems of asthma patients.

3 Q. So you'd experience more asthma difficulty in

4 cold whether, isn't that true, when you have physical

5 exertion?

6 A. Yeah, that's mostly the case.

7 Q. In warm weather you'd have less asthma

8 effects if you have physical exertion?

9 A. That's mostly the case.

10 MR. COWLES: Thank you very much. I pass the

11 witness.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: All right. Thank you

13 very much.

14 MS. BOLER: I have some redirect questions.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, let me find out,

16 you indicated in 1992 and 1993 there were breathing

17 problems.

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Did Mr. Landzo tell you

20 how many of these incidences of asthmatic attack he had

21 for that period.

22 THE WITNESS: He had several asthma attacks

23 in that period. I can't say now the number off my head

24 because I don't have the report now. But, yeah, I want

25 to say again that it's very important what is an asthma

Page 14500

1 attack. For one person is an asthma attack about what

2 he feel and another person will say, "It's going well

3 and little shortness of breath and that's all." And

4 it's very important what experience you have by

5 yourself, what the shortness of breath is for

6 yourself. But, what I told before, if you talk about

7 an asthma attack, it must be, yeah, very severe because

8 when he went to the hospital with his problems, it was

9 a very severe attack.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Again, for a guard who

11 stays outside watching over and in the open air, and

12 not inside the house, is there a likely tendency that

13 he could get the attacks more frequently than if he was

14 in a different situation?

15 THE WITNESS: That's possible because outside

16 you're more influenced about the temperature, the

17 humidity of the -- the climate where you are in. Also,

18 dust or other allergy problems you can have, which will

19 cause asthma problems, that's more often outside than

20 inside a building.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE JAN: I have a few questions. Did he

23 tell you that he had been taking medicines for his

24 asthma since his childhood?

25 THE WITNESS: He didn't have medicine which

Page 14501

1 he had taken by himself. He had medicine given to him

2 in a hospital when he has an asthma attack. And he

3 didn't use any medicine at all by himself.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay, thank you very

5 much. I think this is all we need from you. You may

6 be discharged. Have we any other witness?

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please counsel.

8 MS. BOLER: Sorry. Our next witness is Dr.

9 Marco Lagazzi, who will have an Italian interpreter,

10 and my understanding is that the interpreter will be

11 present in the courtroom in the morning. And then we

12 have four Bosnians who are arriving this evening.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Your undertaking

14 yesterday was that an interpreter would be available

15 today and tomorrow. That was what you told the Trial

16 Chamber.

17 MS. BOLER: I told the Trial Chamber?

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, Mrs. McMurrey said

19 the Italian interpreter would be available today, the

20 14th and 15th.

21 MS. BOLER: Here's what happened. When the

22 registry informed us that they would not be able to get

23 an interpreter, an Italian interpreter until Wednesday,

24 we called an Italian interpreter that we knew of in

25 Amsterdam who was the women who translated the CVs and

Page 14502

1 the reports that the Italian doctors gave us. And we

2 were hopeful that she would be able to find

3 interpreters for us. She was able to find two, but my

4 instructions from the registry were that we needed

5 three for different positions in the courtroom that I

6 am not -- that I don't have any more information than

7 that about. So, with that, we were not able to find

8 our own, although we did spend a part of the afternoon

9 yesterday trying to make some phone calls to see if it

10 could be arranged. We -- you know, obviously the

11 testimony just moved a little faster today than -- I

12 figured there would be even more testimony in the

13 morning before the Italian doctor would even begin, but

14 that's not the way it turned out. So I apologise to

15 the Court.

16 JUDGE JAN: You don't have any other witness

17 at the moment?

18 MS. BOLER: No, Your Honour. The Bosnians

19 are arriving this evening and they'll be able to -- you

20 know, they will be available for tomorrow and Dr.

21 Lagazzi is scheduled to be the first witness up in the

22 morning with the Italian interpreter.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, in the absence of

24 any other witness, I think the Trial Chamber will now

25 rise and reassemble tomorrow morning at ten.

Page 14503

1 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

2 5.00 p.m., to be reconvened on 15th day

3 of July, 1998, at 10.00 a.m.