Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14660

1 Thursday, July 16th, 1998

2 --- Upon commencing at 10.30 a.m.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

4 gentlemen. May we have the appearances, please.

5 MR. COWLES: Good morning, Your Honours, my

6 name is Jim Cowles, with me will be Mr. George Huber,

7 as the case manager. We represent the Prosecution

8 today. Thank you.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours,

10 my name is Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr.

11 Zejnil Delalic, along with my colleague, professor

12 Eugene O'Sullivan from Canada.

13 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning Your Honours, I am

14 Zeljko Olujic, attorney from Croatia, appearing on

15 behalf of Zdravko Mucic together with my co-counsel,

16 Mr. Duric attorney from Croatia.

17 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, I am Salih

18 Karabdic appearing on behalf of Hazim Delic along with

19 Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston Texas.

20 MS. McMURREY: I represent Esad Landzo along

21 with my co-counsel Ms. Nancy Boler.

22 (The witness entered court)

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you kindly swear

24 the witness.

25 THE WITNESS: Asif Jusufovic

Page 14661

1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

2 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

3 truth.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you kindly take

5 your seat, please. Yes. You may proceed, Ms. Boler.

6 Examined by Ms. Boler

7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jusufovic, would you please

8 state your name for the Court?

9 A. Good morning. My name is Asif Jusufovic.

10 Q. My name is Nancy Boler and along with Cynthia

11 McMurrey I represent Esad Landzo. You and I have met

12 before, haven't we?

13 A. Yes, indeed.

14 Q. We visited in Konjic when I was there in May

15 and then again briefly two or three weeks ago and then

16 again after you arrived at the Bel Air Hotel; isn't

17 that right, here in The Hague?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When we spoke yesterday morning, your leg was

20 hurting. Is it any better today?

21 A. No better, I am afraid. I couldn't get a

22 doctor to see to it.

23 Q. I understand they've arranged for you to go

24 to the doctor this afternoon. Is that still going to

25 happen?

Page 14662

1 A. Yes, I have been told so.

2 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, you've never testified before,

3 have you?

4 A. No.

5 Q. I understand you're a little bit nervous?

6 A. No, my usual self.

7 Q. All right. Mr. Jusufovic, let me direct your

8 attention back to the Konjic area in the spring of

9 1992. When the war began, were you a member of the

10 TO?

11 A. From the beginning.

12 Q. What were your duties as a member of the TO?

13 A. I was one of the organisers of the resistance

14 in Konjic and the formation of the first command in

15 Konjic.

16 Q. Now, what did that entail, what types of

17 things did you do in that position?

18 A. We had to organise the friends and people of

19 Konjic --

20 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, if you're having a problem

21 with --

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would you kindly adjust

23 the headphone for him.

24 THE WITNESS: That's fine now, thank you.


Page 14663

1 Q. All right. I think you were telling me about

2 what types of things you did in your capacity in the

3 TO.

4 A. We organised ourselves. That is, into

5 smaller groups of people and we got armed and prepared

6 for the resistance because it was clear that there

7 would be an aggression between Bosnia Herzegovina and

8 particularly against Konjic where I lived. As I

9 already said, we armed ourselves, we prepared for a

10 struggle to be ready when the attack of the enemy

11 came.

12 Q. And at some point did you become a member of

13 the military police?

14 A. Yes. When we reached the Village of

15 Glavaticevo, that was the first time that we were on

16 the frontlines towards the enemy. We established the

17 lines with the -- manning them with local inhabitants

18 and upon return to Konjic some ten days later, we

19 organised the military police. And I transferred to

20 the military police immediately.

21 Q. And how were your duties as a member of the

22 military police different from your duties as a member

23 of the TO?

24 A. Well, I was in the TO at the Glavaticevo,

25 some disorders started in Konjic. There were various

Page 14664

1 attempts to steal property, so that it was necessary to

2 protect the town and the population and private

3 property.

4 Q. At some point did Esad Landzo become a member

5 of the military police?

6 A. He did, but later.

7 Q. Was the time at which Esad Landzo became a

8 member of the military police, was that after the

9 murders of the military policeman at Repovci?

10 MR. COWLES: Objection, Your Honours, to the

11 leading form of the questions.

12 JUDGE JAN: She has to find out the times.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,

14 please.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Direct him to as to what

16 was the relevant time when he did that. You can do

17 that.

18 MS. BOLER: I can do that. Thank you, Your

19 Honour.

20 Q. Do you recall the month when Esad Landzo

21 joined the military police?

22 A. Yes, I do, very well. It was the beginning

23 of August, between the 1st and the 5th or two or three

24 weeks after the killing in Repovci.

25 Q. And at some point, was there a swearing in

Page 14665

1 ceremony for the police?

2 A. There was.

3 Q. Do you recall the time of that ceremony, the

4 date of that ceremony?

5 A. I do because the military police was moved

6 from the premises of Borovo and Oslobodenje, that is in

7 the centre of town, to the Third of March Elementary

8 School where we put up and that is where we were sworn

9 in, in the gym of that school. The date could have

10 been the 20th, 24th, 25th, I don't remember exactly.

11 Q. Of what month?

12 A. Of the month of August.

13 Q. So you attended that ceremony, correct?

14 A. Yes, of course.

15 Q. And did Esad Landzo also attend that

16 ceremony?

17 A. All of us belonging to the military police

18 were there, including him.

19 Q. And did Nermin Mandic also attend that

20 ceremony?

21 A. Of course, he was one of the police chiefs,

22 one of the leaders.

23 Q. Can you tell me approximately how many

24 members of the military police were sworn in at that

25 ceremony?

Page 14666

1 A. About 30, 35, something like that.

2 Q. Okay. Your Honour, at this time, I would

3 like to ask the assistance of the usher and I would

4 like to show a short video clip. I have given the

5 Prosecution a copy and I have given the booth a copy.

6 The amount of time that's shown on this videotape is

7 approximately seven minutes, but I won't be showing all

8 of that. I will just be showing a few portions of the

9 swearing in ceremony, the portions that show Mr.

10 Jusufovic, so that he can verify that he was at the

11 ceremony, as was Esad Landzo.

12 JUDGE JAN: Is Esad Landzo in this tape?

13 MS. BOLER: I'm sorry.

14 JUDGE JAN: Can you see Esad Landzo on this

15 tape?

16 MS. BOLER: I believe not. But you can see

17 Asif Jusufovic, and he can testify that that, indeed,

18 was the ceremony and that Esad Landzo was there.

19 That's all.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is the Prosecution

21 challenging his being military police?

22 MR. COWLES: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You're challenging that

24 he is?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 14667

1 MR. COWLES: They're not working. Yes, Your

2 Honour, the Prosecution will object unless and until

3 this witness has properly identified it. We fail to

4 see the relevance if the defendant is not depicted in

5 the tape. I think it will go to the weight, but we'll

6 defer it for the Court, if proper foundation is laid

7 for the admissibility of the tape.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You might show it. You

9 can then tell us those who were sworn too at the same

10 time with him.

11 MS. BOLER: If the video booth, then, will

12 start this tape. It begins at two minutes and six

13 seconds, rather than zero, simply because when I viewed

14 it the first time and I wrote down the times bring to

15 the Court's attention, it was based on two minutes and

16 six seconds.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not

18 have a text.

19 MS. BOLER: I heard that the interpreters do

20 not have a text. It's not going to be necessary for

21 any interpretation. It's just a picture of everybody

22 in the military police uniform with a white belt, which

23 is the -- one of the things that they wore. And they

24 are simply going to pick up their oath at a little

25 table. And you'll see Esad's picture there and some of

Page 14668

1 the others and then --

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, let's go to the

3 tape and see what it's all about.

4 MS. BOLER: For the information of the video

5 booth -- it began at 206 or 7 and at approximately

6 2.45, I believe it will have our first picture of Mr.

7 Asif Jusufovic. He is in the front row.

8 (Videotape played)

9 MS. BOLER: If the video could freeze at this

10 point, that's the picture of Mr. Jusufovic.

11 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, were you able to watch that

12 tape on your screen?

13 A. No, no, I didn't. I wasn't.

14 Q. That was my fault, I should have reminded

15 you. Now, are you --

16 A. I can see well now.

17 Q. Is that you, Mr. Jusufovic?

18 A. In the cap. The one in the middle wearing a

19 cap.

20 Q. And what is this -- what does this video

21 depict? What's going on here?

22 A. It was a line up and a swearing in, in the

23 gym of the school.

24 Q. And those are the military police being sworn

25 in?

Page 14669

1 A. Yes, they were.

2 Q. I am going to role just a little bit more of

3 the tape, so that you can see some of the swearing in

4 activity. If the video booth will continue just a

5 little bit with that tape. Would the video freeze --

6 could you back up just a little bit to freeze on the

7 man with the beard. About the third in, if you could

8 back up maybe about 5 or 10 seconds so that we're still

9 viewing the people on the front row. Sorry, if the

10 video booth could just back up 5 or 10 seconds so that

11 we're still viewing the men on the front row. Okay.

12 If you'll just freeze right there, please. Mr.

13 Jusufovic, do you recognise the tall gentleman standing

14 here?

15 A. Each and every one of them.

16 Q. What is the name of the man who's last there,

17 closest to your left?

18 A. Nermin Mandic.

19 Q. If I can ask the video to role a little

20 farther to where the people are walking up to the desk

21 where they're receiving their certificates. I believe

22 it's at -- 3.15. All right. At some point, just a

23 little farther along, you see the men going up to the

24 front table to pick up their certificate. Could the

25 video show that. If the video room could just fast

Page 14670

1 forward a little bit to where the members of the

2 military police are walking to the front to pick

3 up their -- to sign their certificate. You can see

4 them walking away with a white piece of paper in their

5 hands. If you could freeze -- all right, stop just

6 there.

7 Mr. Jusufovic, what is going on now in that

8 video? Did you receive a certificate that day?

9 A. We went to sign the oath. Yes, and then we

10 received the certificate.

11 Q. Is that a picture of Nermin Mandic walking

12 away -- Nermin Mandic is walking away with his

13 certificate?

14 A. Yes, yes, I see that.

15 Q. Your Honour, at this time I would like to

16 move that this be admitted into evidence. He has

17 identified it as the swearing in ceremony of the

18 military police where he was present?

19 JUDGE JAN: Do you really want this in

20 evidence? Landzo is not in it. So many faces have

21 been shown. He is not amongst them.

22 MS. BOLER: I did look at that again and

23 again, and I believe there is enough faces that are not

24 shown that --

25 JUDGE JAN: I know. If his face had been

Page 14671

1 there, that would have been really evidence. He is not

2 there, why --

3 MS. BOLER: Since Landzo is a lot shorter

4 than everybody else and that there were a lot of people

5 that were not shown.

6 JUDGE JAN: I know, I know. It's up to you,

7 really.

8 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, we would like to

9 have it into evidence. Is it admitted, Your Honour?

10 Is it admitted, Your Honour?

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It wasn't admitted.

12 MS. BOLER: It was not admitted?


14 MS. BOLER: Okay, I'll move on. May I ask

15 the registrar, please what the number of that exhibit

16 was.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You're trying to show

18 there was a ceremony in which this witness was a

19 participant and which he swore as a military policeman,

20 this witness.

21 MS. BOLER: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: As to what?

23 MS. BOLER: I'll also ask him another

24 question about that and put something else into

25 evidence in just a few minutes if I could just ask a

Page 14672

1 few more questions before I get to that point.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If your client was the

3 person identified, it could have been a very relevant

4 thing.


6 Q. With the usher's assistance, I would like to

7 give the --

8 THE REGISTRAR: The document was marked D

9 69/4. The videotape was marked D 68/4.


11 Q. All right, I would like you to take a look at

12 this document, please, Mr. Jusufovic, and tell me if

13 you can recognise it?

14 A. Yes, I have one like it.

15 Q. And what is it, please? What is it, Mr.

16 Jusufovic? What is that document?

17 A. It is from the official swearing in

18 ceremony. I received one like it.

19 Q. Can you tell me what the date is on the

20 certificate?

21 A. The 26th of August, 1992.

22 Q. Can you tell me whose name is on the

23 certificate, who it was issued to?

24 A. Esad Landzo father's name, Sulijo.

25 Q. Does this represent to you that he came a

Page 14673

1 member of the military place on August 26th, 1992?

2 A. Yes, judging by this document, he came at the

3 beginning of August and it was normal for him to take

4 the oath like the rest of us.

5 Q. Your Honours, at this time I would like to

6 introduce this document into evidence.

7 JUDGE JAN: How can you do it? It's not been

8 signed by him. It's not been issued by him. How can

9 he prove it?

10 MS. BOLER: He stated he recognises it

11 because he got one just like it on the same day.

12 JUDGE JAN: If that is all, then how can he

13 prove this document?

14 MS. BOLER: He testified that Esad Landzo

15 also attended the ceremony on that day.

16 JUDGE JAN: That's good enough.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He could have picked up

18 this paper anywhere else.

19 MS. BOLER: I'm sorry.

20 JUDGE JAN: I don't say that it's not

21 genuine, but he can't prove it.

22 MS. BOLER: All right. I'll move on.

23 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, I am going to direct your

24 attention back to the time when you and Esad Landzo

25 were together in the military police?

Page 14674

1 A. I didn't understand that.

2 Q. Let me just ask you a question. When you

3 were in the military police, together with Esad Landzo,

4 were you aware of any health problems or breathing

5 problems that Mr. Landzo had?

6 A. I noticed that at the first position where we

7 held -- which we held at the cross-roads. As he was

8 mostly alone, he was a loner, he would separate from

9 the rest of us and we would notice his coughing. I had

10 no idea that he had this disease. And then talking

11 with friends, we would discuss it. And later on, we

12 learned that he had this disease -- I am not very

13 familiar with medicine, so I don't know whether it's

14 asthma or something else, but we noticed that he had a

15 shortness of breath. And especially when we went on

16 assignment and if we had to go up hill, it became quite

17 evident that he was short of breath and it became quite

18 manifest.

19 Q. Do you recall going to the Village of

20 Buturovic?

21 A. Yes, I went there twice and he went there

22 when I went to second time.

23 Q. Can you describe that journey for me?

24 A. We were going in lorries along a roundabout

25 way to the Village of Dubocani and then from there we

Page 14675

1 went on foot. And while the terrain was flat, he moved

2 like the others. But as soon as there was a slope to

3 climb, he would lag behind the rest of us. As there

4 were plenty of horses around, so we loaded the food and

5 other equipment on them and then we discussed the

6 possibility of sending him back, but he refused. He

7 was given orders to go back, but he wouldn't obey. And

8 then, we put him on a horse and that is how he covered

9 the rest of the journey, on horseback.

10 Q. Well, when he was on the horse, he was able

11 to continue with you?

12 A. Yes, of course. He didn't use his own legs.

13 Q. All right. Now let's go back to the

14 headquarters for the military police. For the most

15 part, what type of tasks was Esad assigned to do?

16 A. At first he was given the same assignments as

17 the rest of us, but later on when we learned of his

18 disease, we realised that he couldn't be assigned to

19 tasks that were urgent. And which required a lot of

20 walking, especially up hill, because he couldn't move

21 as quickly as the others. He would lag behind. Then,

22 he would breathe heavily so that in the end, we

23 wouldn't give him such task, but rather he was assigned

24 to security of commands. He was mostly on duty in the

25 unit. He would be given the less strenuous

Page 14676

1 assignments.

2 Q. Can you describe what kind of person did you

3 know him to be when he was with you in the military

4 police?

5 JUDGE JAN: Are you leading evidence

6 regarding his good character.

7 MS. BOLER: Am I asking evidence regarding

8 what?

9 JUDGE JAN: Are you asking him about his good

10 character and not his bad character?

11 MS. BOLER: His good character, I understand

12 Your Honour.

13 Q. Approximately how old was Esad when he was

14 with you in the military police?

15 A. I don't know exactly. I know he joined us

16 still as a child. He was 17, 18, maybe younger, but I

17 don't know. I just know that he was childish. He was

18 a child in the real sense of the word by his behaviour

19 and generally. As for his work and tasks, the daily

20 tasks, what he was told to do and ordered to do, he did

21 it conscientiously.

22 Q. Let me ask you now some questions an about

23 Repovci. This may be difficult for you because your

24 brother was one of the military policeman killed there;

25 isn't that true?

Page 14677

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. What was your brother's name?

3 A. Aziz Jusufovic.

4 Q. Isn't it true that Nermin Mandic's brother,

5 the person that we saw in the tape there, was also

6 killed at Repovci, correct?

7 MR. COWLES: Your Honour, I pose an objection

8 as to the relevancy of this line of questioning.

9 MS. BOLER: As to the relevancy, I think you

10 will find in my very next question. If I might be

11 allowed to ask one more question, I think the relevancy

12 will be clear.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.


15 Q. What was the relationship between Nermin

16 Mandic's brother -- let me ask you first, what was his

17 first name, the one who was killed, his first name?

18 A. Ibrahim Mandic.

19 Q. Was he nicknamed Ibro?

20 A. Ibro, that's right.

21 Q. Can you tell me what the relationship was

22 between Esad Landzo and Ibro?

23 A. First of all, they're neighbours, they lived

24 in the same house. So, they new each other very well.

25 But he listened more to Ibro than to his brother and to

Page 14678

1 his father. So you can see what their relationship was

2 from that. Whatever was needed, whatever he needed, he

3 turned to him. He protected him, et cetera.

4 Q. Would you say Ibro was like a father figure

5 to Esad Landzo?

6 A. Yes, something like that. That's correct.

7 JUDGE JAN: They were the same age. How

8 could they have been?

9 MS. BOLER: I think --

10 THE WITNESS: No, no, there is a great age

11 difference between them. Ibrahim was born in 1955 and

12 the younger one is 24 now. So there is an age

13 difference between them. He brought him up. They were

14 neighbours.


16 Q. So if -- do you recall that Esad Landzo's

17 mother baby-sat for Ibro's child?

18 MR. COWLES: Objection to the leading form of

19 the questions, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this is not

21 harmful at all. Let her ask it. It doesn't make any

22 difference.


24 Q. Were you aware of that?

25 A. That's normal in my country, that always

Page 14679

1 happens in all neighbourhoods, in all families, people

2 who have more children. This was a poor family and

3 probably when they went to work, they left their

4 children to the Mandic's, to the mother.

5 Q. All right. Let me ask you to tell me how you

6 first heard about what had happened at Repovci.

7 A. I was on duty that night. At 3.00 a.m. I

8 went home to have a rest. And then they contacted me

9 at 10 -- at noon or at 1.00 p.m. to come to the station

10 urgently because something had happened to the control

11 on the way to Repovci, to the patrol. They were not

12 quite sure, quite certain, but --

13 Q. And at that point, did you, did you go to

14 Repovci?

15 A. I was there and Mandic came too and we drove

16 to Brjdani. At the cross-roads to Repovci, there were

17 lots of people there and military. We were not let

18 through to see what had happened on the scene.

19 Q. But did you see other people milling about?

20 Were you able to see the reactions of the people

21 there?

22 A. Of course I did. The military were there.

23 The brother of the killed was there too. They gathered

24 the civilians in a small area. There were many units

25 that started going there.

Page 14680

1 Q. Are you familiar with a newspaper called

2 Bosnian Weekly? Are you familiar with that? Free

3 Herzegovina newspaper?

4 A. That's not the name of the newspaper. Free

5 Herzegovina is the name. Yeah, it's the only one.

6 Q. Your Honour, at this time, I would like to,

7 with the assistance of the usher's, show Mr. Jusufovic

8 some pictures that were published in this newspaper.

9 JUDGE JAN: How are is that relevant to us?

10 We're not inquiring into that, the night the policemen

11 were killed. We're more concerned with Celebici. This

12 person said that a person, one of the policeman that

13 was killed there, he was very close to Landzo.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, why did you

15 invite this witness? If you have your ideas, lead your

16 evidence to establish why you called him. That is the

17 most important thing.

18 JUDGE JAN: You wanted to show that Landzo

19 was very upset over the death of one of the policeman.

20 That's what he said. Why bring in the paper?

21 MS. McMURREY: The paper shows the brutality

22 Mr. Landzo saw when he went to the scene that day. And

23 explains his state of mind when he returned to Celebici

24 on July 12th, where he is alleged to have hit Mr. Bosko

25 Semukovic (Phon).

Page 14681

1 JUDGE JAN: So that justifies some of the

2 allegations made against him? You're putting

3 provocation?

4 MS. McMURREY: Provocation probably goes to

5 the diminished mental responsibility at the time, Your

6 Honour.

7 JUDGE JAN: Call the person who has given the

8 provocation, not the innocent person. Provocation

9 against the person who has given the provocation.

10 MS. McMURREY: Well, they were all told to go

11 into the wounds to search for Chetniks and this man can

12 testify about their reaction in the community --

13 JUDGE JAN: Let him talk about the reaction,

14 instead of getting these pictures on. I am sure it

15 must have caused a lot of sorrow and grief for the

16 death for some many people doing their national duty.

17 I'm sure of that. That testifies -- some of the

18 allegations made against your client. What sort of

19 diminished responsibility would that be? I can

20 understand if someone does some harm to you, you get

21 provoked then I can understand diminished liability.

22 But how would that justify action or taking revenge on

23 innocent persons?

24 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, but we're

25 not talking about a normal person. We're talking about

Page 14682

1 a person with a personality disorder.

2 JUDGE JAN: We will decide later whether he

3 is normal or not.

4 MS. McMURREY: These photographs -- we only

5 wanted to show the Trial Chamber these photographs to

6 show the absolute brutality of the scene, to show how

7 shocking that was for a young 18-year-old to come upon

8 this and see his father figure brutally murdered like

9 this. And if the Court would allow, I think these will

10 give you a different impression of what exactly

11 happened on July 12th. And that's the reason and the

12 motivation for needing to, and desiring to present

13 these to the Court.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Did you listen to the

15 date this witness was sworn in?

16 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry?

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The date he was sworn in

18 as policeman? Did you hear him?

19 MS. McMURREY: Yes, but that's another

20 question. Ms. Boler has not asked the follow-up

21 question to that yet, which will make it clear. First

22 of all, Mr. Landzo was at the scene here on July 12th

23 as a member of the guard from Celebici. They called up

24 everybody.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is not what we're

Page 14683

1 talking about. We're talking ability his evidence.

2 MS. McMURREY: I am talking about a different

3 side of his evidence.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And you're not the one

5 giving evidence, are you?

6 MS. McMURREY: I am just trying to tie it in

7 as to relevance.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's not --

9 MS. McMURREY: I just thought I was answering

10 the Court's question, I'm sorry.


12 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, did you read the newspaper

13 accounts of your brother's killing and the killing of

14 the eight other military policemen that evening?

15 A. The -- this is the only newspaper that dared

16 to write about it in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I went to the

17 editor's office and asked them to write something.

18 They were the only ones who reported on it, on the case

19 in Repovci. I read it and followed everything. I know

20 everything about it.

21 Q. Did they also publish graphic pictures of the

22 dead bodies?

23 A. Yes, that's right. I gave them some pictures

24 too.

25 JUDGE JAN: Did he see the dead body of his

Page 14684

1 brother? Was it mutilated? Ask him.

2 THE WITNESS: Are you referring to the scene

3 or later? On the spot or later?


5 Q. At any time were you allowed to view--

6 A. Yes, I was. I still have the photographs. I

7 brought them with me and, if necessary, I'll show them.

8 Q. What kind of wounds did your brother

9 receive?

10 A. Only his face wasn't mutilated, the rest, all

11 the rest from the shots, from everything.

12 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, have you gotten any help from

13 the authorities in solving these murders?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Are you still --

16 A. We did try. We did try. Over the past six

17 years now, we tried to, inspectors came from Sarajevo,

18 from Mostar and everybody came. They investigated to

19 the end, that's what they said. The case has been

20 solved. But the killers are walking around Konjic. I

21 went there. I brought the documents to the presidency

22 and to the office, security office to the police, the

23 republican police. We went to all the places. We even

24 sent to documents to the tribunal, but nobody has

25 sent -- given us an answer in the past six years,

Page 14685

1 nobody. It seems to me that this is a greater crime

2 than Celebici.

3 JUDGE JAN: He made a statement that the

4 killers are still walking in Konjic. Ask him about it.

5 THE WITNESS: That's what our authorities are

6 saying. The mayor and the head of the police, they

7 told us that the killers are known. I don't know.


9 Q. And what was the reaction of the public to

10 what you've been going through?

11 MR. COWLES: Your Honour, I object to the

12 relevancy of this whole line of questioning. There has

13 been no mention of the defendant yet.

14 JUDGE JAN: The defendant is resident of

15 Konjic. Would he not be swayed by the general mood?

16 Go ahead.


18 Q. Is it fair to say that the public was

19 outraged by these murders?

20 A. Yes, especially Konjic and the surrounding

21 areas. The whole country was outraged.

22 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, may I just have one

23 minute?

24 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, let me back you up to the

25 swearing in ceremony that we discussed earlier. You

Page 14686

1 stated that the ceremony was in late August, August

2 26th?

3 JUDGE JAN: Yes, that's the date he

4 mentioned.


6 Q. Is it --

7 A. I didn't even know until I saw the date that

8 was in 1992. I can't -- it was August, the middle of

9 August. I know it from Repovci, I followed it. And we

10 were transferred -- I know it was in August, but I

11 don't know the exact date.

12 Q. Let me ask you this: Is it a fact that

13 members of the military police joined in the weeks

14 before, in June and July? Was it a gradual assembling

15 of the military police?

16 A. That's correct. People were selected who

17 would be admitted to the military police and they were

18 admitted gradually. Those who were considered fit for

19 the service, were admitted.

20 Q. And then at the swearing in ceremony, would

21 people who joined in June, July, whatever, at various

22 times, they were all sworn in together on the 26th of

23 August, correct?

24 A. That's right. We were all sworn in together,

25 all of us who were there. Mandic could tell you better

Page 14687

1 because he was one of the commanders.

2 MS. BOLER: All right. Pass the witness,

3 Your Honour.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you finished with

5 him? Any cross-examinations?

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, Mr. Delalic's

7 Defence has no questions for this witness.

8 MR. OLUJIC: We have a short question, Your

9 Honours.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Olujic

11 Q. May it please the Court? Good morning, sir,

12 I am Zeljko Olujic. I am the Defence counsel for

13 Zdravko Mucic. I would like to talk to you and put a

14 few questions. Of course, you are able, are you all

15 right now?

16 A. Yes, I am.

17 Q. Do you know Professor Duro Golubovic?

18 A. Professor?

19 Q. Yes, Duro Golubovic, Professor

20 Duro Golubovic?

21 A. I should know him. I can't remember his face

22 now. Golubovic, physical education, P.E., I think I

23 know him.

24 Q. Professor Duro Golubovic, that's his name, a

25 teacher?

Page 14688

1 A. There are many Duro Golubovic. I can't

2 remember his name.

3 Q. Do you know of a Duro Golubovic whose family

4 were victims?

5 A. In Konjic, Yes, I know him.

6 Q. Did his family suffer? Do you know anything

7 about it?

8 A. Not hearsay. I know where they were killed.

9 Q. Where were they killed?

10 A. On the road, Zaic Mirlospira (Phon).

11 Q. Do you know how they were killed?

12 A. They were killed.

13 Q. You don't know who killed them?

14 A. Hearsay, the same as in Repovci.

15 Q. Do you know Mr. Miralem Macic?

16 A. There's something more about him?

17 Q. He was a member of the military police?

18 A. No, he was not a member of the military

19 police.

20 Q. He was never a member?

21 A. No. He was a member of some other unit.

22 MR. DJURIC: Just, a minute we have this

23 problem with the spelling of the transcript. This name

24 has not been put down in the correct form as it was

25 spelled out Mr. Macic, Miralem.

Page 14689

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you for drawing

2 attention to it.


4 Q. Sir, you don't know whether he was a member

5 of the military police. You are excluding this

6 possibility?

7 A. Yes, he was never a member of the military

8 police where I was.

9 MR. OLUJIC: I have no further questions.

10 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, Hazim Delic's

11 Defence has no questions for this witness.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions for the

13 Prosecution?

14 MR. COWLES: Yes, Your Honour, may it please

15 the Court?

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Cowles

18 Q. Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Jusufovic.

19 A. Good morning.

20 Q. My name is Jim Cowles and I represent the

21 Prosecution in this matter. Mr. Jusufovic, you

22 testified that you believed that Mr. Landzo became a

23 member of the military police at the beginning of

24 August, 1992; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, between the 1st and the 5th, something

Page 14690

1 like that.

2 Q. Do you recall giving a statement or talking

3 to a Defence lawyer for Mr. Landzo in August of 1996?

4 An attorney, Mr. Brackovic if, if I pronounce it

5 correctly, an attorney from Sarajevo?

6 A. Brackovic, something like that. Yes, I did

7 talk to him.

8 Q. Do you remember, at that time, stating that

9 you cannot recall when it was that Mr. Landzo joined

10 the military police, that it was sometime in the warm

11 months, but you were not sure of the exact dates?

12 A. Yes, yes, that's what I said then because I

13 didn't know the dates. And then I consulted with the

14 commanders and my point of reference was the event in

15 Repovci, so it happened two or three weeks after that.

16 Q. Now, isn't it true that you never went inside

17 the Celebici camp?

18 A. Well, let me be quite clear. I reached as

19 far as the gates on two occasions, that was my duty, to

20 go as far as the gates and that's as far as I went.

21 Q. And that's when you were participating in the

22 turning over of prisoners to the camp; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You were not, in other words, you were not

Page 14691

1 inside or did not go inside the Celebici camp?

2 JUDGE JAN: This is what he said. He went

3 only up to the gate.


5 Q. So you don't know what happened inside

6 Celebici?

7 A. Our duty was to take them as far as the

8 gate. That was the duty of the military police. We

9 had no responsibilities inside, no rights, either.

10 Q. Now, you were aware that Mr. Landzo was a

11 guard at Celebici camp; is that correct?

12 A. I knew where he was at the beginning of the

13 war. Which formation he joined later on, I didn't know

14 until I learned it from his brother who was with me in

15 the military police, and then he too joined later.

16 Q. You knew Mr. Landzo had served as a guard at

17 Celebici camp; is that correct?

18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, that's asked and

19 answer.

20 MR. COWLES: It was wasn't answered, I don't

21 believe.

22 THE WITNESS: No, no.


24 Q. You didn't know that Mr. Landzo has served as

25 a guard?

Page 14692

1 A. I didn't know. He worked for a private

2 entrepreneur in Konjic, that is where he worked, and I

3 don't know when he went to Celebici. He was working in

4 a small restaurant, a cafe, or whatever you like to

5 call it.

6 Q. Well, do you remember telling his lawyer in

7 August of 1996 that Mr. Landzo transferred from the

8 Celebici barracks to the military police to join you?

9 A. I said that his brother brought him to the

10 military police to join us from the Celebici camp. And

11 then the brother had told us about him before that,

12 that he wanted to transfer him.

13 Q. All right. Now, you indicated that Mr.

14 Landzo had breathing problems; is that correct?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. But you don't know how any breathing problems

17 may have affected him in his work at Celebici, do you?

18 A. I try to explain to you that heavy labour and

19 walking up hill was difficult for him. He could work

20 if he went on a low ground, but as soon as he had to

21 walk up hill, it became difficult.

22 Q. My question is, you don't know how it may

23 have affected him in Celebici camp, do you?

24 A. It's not up to me to think about those

25 things.

Page 14693

1 Q. Well now, you are aware that Mr. Landzo drank

2 a lot from an early age and he was using pills; wasn't

3 he in 1992?

4 A. I am aware of the pills. And at the

5 beginning of the war most people spent time in

6 basements, and he was with friends who did drink

7 alcohol. And when he took these pills when he was with

8 us, he said that he was taking these pills, but he

9 didn't tell us that it was for some disease. He

10 avoided talking about it.

11 Q. Are you aware, Mr. Jusufovic, that Mr. Landzo

12 served with the Bosnian army in several actions in

13 warfare? Are you aware of that?

14 A. I didn't quite understand. Which army? The

15 BiH army or before?

16 Q. Yes, the BiH army.

17 A. Oh, he went with me for the first time to

18 Glavaticevo. And before then, I only know him from the

19 cafe, from the restaurant.

20 Q. Are you aware that he served as a soldier in

21 other actions, besides Glavaticevo?

22 A. He came from the camp to join us in the

23 military police. Where he was before that and after

24 that, I don't know. I just know about the time when he

25 was in the military police. I can testify to that.

Page 14694

1 Q. So is the only action or military action that

2 you know Mr. Landzo to have participated in, is the

3 action concerning Glavaticevo?

4 A. That's it, yes.

5 MR. COWLES: Thank you Your Honours, that's

6 all I have. I pass the witness.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?

8 Re-examined by Ms. Boler

9 Q. Your Honour, at this time I would like to --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 Microphone, please.


13 Q. Your Honour, at this time I would like to ask

14 the usher's assistance to show Mr. Jusufovic, the

15 Bosnian copy of the statement that he gave to

16 Brackovic, that Mr. Cowles just used in his line of

17 questioning.

18 JUDGE JAN: The Prosecutor has not asked him

19 because he could impeach him with reference to that

20 statement.

21 MS. BOLER: I don't think he did impeached

22 him.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He hasn't, but he could

24 if you now begin with it.

25 JUDGE JAN: You're not producing the

Page 14695

1 statement to corroborate -- that you can't give. The

2 witness is here.

3 MS. BOLER: We're introducing it to show that

4 the Prosecutor did not impeach him and I am going to

5 ask him if he still stands by this statement that he

6 gave.

7 JUDGE JAN: The Prosecutor has not asked him

8 about it at all. Why do you want to produce it?

9 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, I just think it

10 would be useful for --

11 JUDGE JAN: For the purposes of corroboration

12 for what purpose?

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you want the

14 Prosecution to comment it on later? You want them to

15 do that?

16 MS. BOLER: We're not introducing it as

17 substantive evidence, just that the Prosecution was not

18 able to impeach Mr. Jusufovic with this statement.

19 JUDGE JAN: The Prosecution has not asked

20 that that statement be before us.

21 MS. BOLER: My understanding is that if the

22 Prosecution attempts to impeach with this statement,

23 then I am allowed to introduce a prior statement into

24 evidence.

25 JUDGE JAN: If he wanted to impeach it, he

Page 14696

1 would have said, "Please take this into evidence. This

2 is what he said earlier." He has not done that.

3 MS. BOLER: I understand that, but he did use

4 this statement to question Mr. Jusufovic and attempt to

5 impeach him.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you want to, show it

7 to him. When it comes into evidence, he will be

8 entitled at any time to rely on it.

9 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, at this time, I

10 would just point out to the Court that it is 11.30 and

11 ask, Your Honours, if this would be a convenient time

12 to take a break.

13 JUDGE JAN: Don't you think we've already had

14 a break.

15 MS. BOLER: I don't feel like I've had a

16 break, no.

17 MR. COWLES: Your Honours, I would like to

18 offer an objection. This is an improper attempt to try

19 to corroborate her own witness and I would object to

20 the introduction of the statement, itself.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You will continue your

22 re-examination when we resume, is it?

23 MS. BOLER: Yes, Your Honour.

24 THE REGISTRAR: The document has been marked

25 defence document D 70/4.

Page 14697

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

2 now rise and reassemble at noon.

3 --- Recess taken at 11.35 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 12.05.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can start your

6 re-examination.

7 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir that you

8 are still under oath.

9 Re-examined by Ms. Boler

10 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, I just have one final

11 question. Do you see Esad Landzo in the courtroom

12 today?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. And does he look different today than when

15 you knew him in the military police?

16 A. There is a great difference.

17 Q. Just describe his appearance and behaviour in

18 the military police as opposed to what you see today.

19 That's my final question.

20 A. When he came to the military police, I don't

21 know whether anyone exchanged two sentences with him.

22 He was always somewhere in the corner. I don't know,

23 he looked lost --

24 MR. COWLES: Your Honour, I object to this

25 question. It's improper re-direct. And she asked

Page 14698

1 appearance and not personality or character.


3 Q. Does he appear to be a different person today

4 than from what you knew back then?

5 A. Not only that he seems -- I see that he is

6 different. It looks like heaven and earth. He is very

7 different. He looks much better. At that time he

8 looked lost. He looked like a lost child then. We

9 were 15 of us there, but nobody was on intimate terms

10 with him.

11 MS. BOLER: Thank you, Mr. Jusufovic. Thank

12 you for your time.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much, Mr.

14 Asif, and we're very grateful for your assistance.

15 Thank you. Can we have your next witness, please.

16 (Witness withdrew)

17 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, the Defence has

18 two subpoenaed witnesses present in The Hague right

19 now. But we had discussions with them last night and I

20 would really like it if the Court would let us have an

21 ex parte hearing before the Court on some of the

22 matters regarding our witnesses that are not able to

23 testify at the moment.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: An ex parte hearing, you

25 mean the Prosecution should not be involved in it?

Page 14699

1 MS. McMURREY: I don't think they have

2 anything to do with the problems that I am having with

3 my witnesses.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And the witnesses who

5 are expected to testify before the Tribunal?

6 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And the Prosecution has

8 nothing to do with that?

9 MS. McMURREY: I don't see how they do. It's

10 my problem with the witnesses. It has nothing to do

11 with the Prosecution's opinion one way or the other.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are they before the

13 Tribunal?

14 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour. I would

15 like for them to testify before the Tribunal. But I

16 don't intend to discuss ex parte with the Court any

17 testimony of the witness, only the problems that are

18 arising trying to get testimony out of witnesses. It's

19 a problem that the defence is experiencing. I think

20 that it's something that needs to be brought to the

21 attention of the Court and you can offer guidance to

22 us. If the Prosecutor wants to be present, I don't

23 have a problem with it. But I think it's a matter that

24 needs to be discussed between the Defence of Esad

25 Landzo and the Trial Chamber.

Page 14700

1 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on)

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your

3 Honour.

4 MS. McMURREY: Are we in private session?

5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session

6 now.

7 (In private session)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14701













13 pages 14701-14730 redacted private session



16 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.37 p.m.

17 --- Upon commencing at 2.35 p.m.





22 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

23 2.55 p.m., to be reconvened on the

24 17th day of July, 1998, at 10.00 a.m.