Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14842

1 Tuesday, July 21st, 1998

2 (Closed session)

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Page 14847

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

9 (In open session)

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

11 gentlemen. May we have the appearances, please.

12 MR. TURONE: Good morning, Your Honours, my

13 name is Turone, and I appear today with Mr. Cowles and

14 Mr. Huber for the Prosecution. Thank you.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have appearances

16 for the Defence, please.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I

18 am Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil

19 Delalic. Mr. Delalic is also counsel by Mr. Eugene

20 O'Sullivan, professor from Canada. Thank you.

21 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I

22 am Mr. Zdeljco Olujic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zdravko

23 Mucic, along with my colleague Niko Djuric, we're both

24 attorneys from Croatia, thank you.

25 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I

Page 14848

1 am Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, Defence

2 counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic, along with Tom Moran,

3 attorney from Houston, Texas.

4 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours, I

5 am Cynthia McMurrey. I represent Esad Landzo, along

6 with my co-counsel, Ms. Nancy Boler and Mr. Calvin

7 Saunders.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

9 (The witness enters)

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you kindly swear

11 the witness.

12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

14 truth.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you please take

16 your seat.

17 THE WITNESS: Nedzida Landzo.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Ms.

19 McMurrey.

20 MS. McMURREY: Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Examined by Ms. McMurrey:

22 Q. Would you introduce yourself to the Court,

23 please.

24 A. I am Nedzida Landzo.

25 Q. And, Ms. Landzo, you've never testified in

Page 14849

1 Court before, have you?

2 A. I have not.

3 Q. Are you a little bit nervous today?

4 A. Yes, a little bit.

5 Q. And you do speak some English, but you prefer

6 to testify today in your native language; is that

7 right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, Ms. Landzo, how do you know

10 Esad Landzo?

11 A. Esad is my brother.

12 Q. And how many brothers and sisters do you

13 have?

14 A. I have three more brothers.

15 Q. And where does Esad fit in the order of the

16 children in your family?

17 A. He is second.

18 MS. BOLER: Your Honours, I think what's

19 happening is sometimes there is a -- sometimes there is

20 a short in this one, which is the one I usually use.

21 And I am aware of this short. Cynthia is caught by

22 surprise and I think if you'll allow me, I'll just

23 switch that way you won't be interrupting, when I can

24 just jiggle it when I need to because I am used to

25 it. --

Page 14850

1 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry, Your Honours, I

2 didn't hear any interpretation then.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: She said he's second.

4 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much.

5 Q. That makes him how many years older than

6 you?

7 A. I was born in '76. And he is born -- he was

8 born in '73.

9 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry, Your Honours, I am

10 still not hearing anything.

11 THE WITNESS: I was born in 1976 and he was

12 born in 1973.

13 THE INTERPRETER: I am repeating the

14 interpretation.

15 MS. McMURREY: Could I have a test, please?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, the witness had just

17 said she was born in 1976 and Esad was born in 1973.

18 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much.

19 Q. Ms. Landzo, can you tell us what kind of

20 young boy Esad Landzo was?

21 A. He was mostly shy. I am significantly

22 younger than him. But when he was in elementary

23 school, I attended the same elementary school as Esad.

24 He always had his circle of friends and I know that he

25 was an excellent student. He was especially good in

Page 14851

1 painting. We had the same teacher, Ms. Vera (Phon).

2 She was our art teacher. And she used to say that I

3 have the same talent for the arts, but that I wasn't as

4 good as my brother.

5 Q. Let me ask you, did he suffer from any

6 physical problems as a child?

7 A. Well, he was -- when he was young, he had a

8 severe bronchitis. My father and my mother would often

9 send him to the coast, to the seacoast because the

10 doctor used to recommend doing that, used to say that

11 that type of climate would do him well. They would

12 also send him to Glavaticevo, to the grandparents

13 because this is where the air was slightly colder.

14 Q. Do you remember at times when he had to go to

15 the hospital for special treatment for his asthma or

16 bronchitis?

17 A. Every time when he had a cold, they would

18 always prescribe injections, shots for him. And I also

19 remember that he used to have to go to Sarajevo to do

20 some allergy tests to see what he was allergic to. I

21 think he had a total of about 15 shots to see what he

22 was allergic to.

23 Q. Do you remember your mother treating him for

24 his asthma with home remedies?

25 A. Yes, somebody told my mother that goat's milk

Page 14852

1 and the honey were good for this kind of condition.

2 And since he took this frequently, perhaps, he was fed

3 up with it. So, even today, he cannot stand the smell

4 of milk.

5 Q. Did she also use goat's fat to treat him?

6 A. Yes, she would put that kind of fat on his

7 back and on his lungs.

8 Q. Do you remember Mr. Landzo adopting stray

9 animals? Did he play with animals more than he did

10 children as a young boy?

11 A. Yes, I know he had always dogs. I know this

12 because I was always extremely afraid of the dogs. So

13 he would always be with them. And, during the war, he

14 had a tiger (sic), I think it was a Shepherd. And

15 occasionally he would take the brush, the scrubbing

16 brush and brush the dog because the hair used to come

17 off to shed and I remember that my mother would always

18 be angry at him for that.

19 Q. Now, you said he was a shy young boy, did he

20 have very many friends or did he just have one friend

21 in particular?

22 A. Since I was younger, I know that, that lately

23 he used to be friends with Valentin who was also a

24 neighbour at the time and they would occasionally go to

25 their country house in Seonica. And he would

Page 14853

1 frequently also spend time with him in his apartment.

2 Q. And did Mr. Landzo paint something special

3 for his friend, Valentin?

4 A. Yes, he painted in his room. He painted on

5 the surface of the whole wall and a painting for him.

6 Q. Now, did Mr. Landzo do a lot of drawing for

7 other children in the neighbourhood?

8 MR. COWLES: Your Honours, we do object to

9 this line of questioning as to its relevancy.

10 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, may I respond?

11 It goes to the fact that he was an excellent artist,

12 that he couldn't go to art school. I think the

13 Prosecution was given broad latitude on their direct

14 examination. And this is going to be limited to what

15 his sister remembers about his childhood, which is

16 relevant to his mental state.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may continue.

18 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.

19 Q. Did he draw for the other children?

20 A. Yes, in my street there were about 15 of my

21 friends living. And at that time a band called new

22 Kids on the Block used to be popular. And he used to

23 draw on all of our bags the faces of the members of

24 that band and we used to dance that way.

25 Q. Your art teacher, what was her name?

Page 14854

1 A. Ms. Vera.

2 Q. Did she have high hopes and expectations and

3 hopes for your brother in the field of art?

4 A. My brother at the end of the school year

5 would frequently be awarded an award called "Titore's

6 Paths of Revolution."

7 Q. I'm sorry, with the assistance of the usher,

8 could I please ask him to show this book to Mrs.

9 Landzo -- Ms. Landzo.

10 Ms. Landzo, can you look at this book. Do

11 you know what this is?

12 A. Yes, this was an award given in the painting

13 competition. And I remember that it was a drawing of

14 Bosko Buha.

15 Q. And can you tell the Court how you felt about

16 this painting? Was it unusual?

17 A. Since I am not a good connoisseur of painting

18 even today, I remember that this drawing was mostly

19 black and to me it looked ridiculous.

20 Q. But was it considered quite artistic by the

21 other people in the school?

22 A. Yes. There were two art teachers in my

23 school and also two art teachers from another school

24 who were making decisions concerning the award.

25 Q. I don't remember, did you answer whether his

Page 14855

1 art teacher had high expectations for him in the

2 future? Did she want him to become an art teacher?

3 A. When he graduated from the 8th grade, his

4 teacher even advised him to, to apply to the art school

5 in Sarajevo. And my father did take him to Sarajevo.

6 He passed the entrance exam. But due to financial

7 means, the lack of financial means, and due to his

8 condition, my father also thought that he was too young

9 to go to Sarajevo. So due to all that, he entered the

10 forestry school in Konjic.

11 Q. You too had another career you wished to

12 pursue, but weren't able to pursue it, didn't you?

13 A. I wanted to attend the hair dressing school

14 in Sarajevo.

15 Q. Mr. Landzo finished secondary school, didn't

16 he?

17 A. Yes, three years.

18 Q. And what was he forced to accept as his

19 profession in secondary school?

20 A. Can you explain?

21 Q. I'm sorry. Tell me that if my questions are

22 not clear and I'll try to explain them. I am quite

23 confusing often times. He wasn't able to go into art,

24 so he graduated from secondary school in what field?

25 A. It was a forestry school.

Page 14856

1 Q. Thank you. I now want to go back to 1991,

2 are you aware of a hand injury that your brother

3 suffered?

4 A. Yes, he cut himself with a knife.

5 Q. And what was the result of that hand injury?

6 Did he lose the use of his, some of his hand?

7 A. Yes, a surgery was done by a Mr. Sejo and he

8 wasn't able to move three of his fingers.

9 Q. When you say Mr. Sejo, is that Dr. Buturovic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was your brother ashamed of this injury? Did

12 he attempt to conceal it, or not?

13 A. When he took the plaster off, the cast off,

14 he would always keep his fist tightly closed, or he

15 would often keep his hand in the pocket, and he used to

16 be embarrassed when he had to shake hands with someone.

17 Q. I want to go on to another topic. After your

18 brother graduated from secondary school, did he go to

19 work for someone then?

20 A. Yes, he worked for Mr. Miro Hadzialabic, who

21 had a company called Elmo Komerc myth in Konjic.

22 Q. Do you remember what time of the year or when

23 he went to work for Mr. Miro?

24 A. I don't remember what year it was. I do know

25 that it was before the war.

Page 14857

1 Q. Can you tell the Court what Mr. Landzo's

2 relationship was to Miro? How did he think of Miro?

3 A. I know that every time Mr. Miro would call

4 him, regardless of whether he was available or not, he

5 would always respond and go to Mr. Miro. And Mr. Miro

6 used to leave with him the keys to the storage where

7 there were a lot of goods, very important significant

8 goods. And based on this example, I do believe that

9 Mr. Miro had trusted Esad highly, and also vice versa,

10 Esad trusted him.

11 Q. And when your brother worked for Miro, did he

12 get paid in money, or how was he compensated for his

13 work?

14 A. He wouldn't pay him regularly. He wouldn't

15 pay him regular salary. Mostly Esad would get clothes

16 and food that he would bring home.

17 Q. Thank you. Can you say whether Mr. Landzo

18 worked longer hours that normal for Miro?

19 A. Yes, he worked in Elmo Komerc during the day,

20 and at night, I don't know for what reason, whether

21 there wasn't any other guards or whether Mr. Miro

22 didn't trust other people, but he would stay there for

23 24 hours at a time. And he even went to visit Miro's

24 parents in Tuleg and helped them.

25 Q. Now, would Mr. Landzo do other things for

Page 14858

1 Miro, too?

2 A. Can you explain what other things?

3 Q. Would he do almost anything that Miro asked

4 him to do?

5 A. I only know that he worked at Elmo Komerc.

6 But also, where there were deliveries when Miro wanted

7 to send something to his mother into Tuleg, then Miro

8 would take it up there, then Esad, sorry, would take it

9 up there.

10 Q. Now, in 19 -- or, tell me, did, when the war

11 broke out, did your father join up with the TO?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And had your brother received a letter from

14 Mostar to join the JNA prior to that time?

15 A. Yes, he received from the former JNA a letter

16 to appear for the mandatory military service, and since

17 my father heard from other people who had children the

18 same age, that they wouldn't be sending them due to the

19 situation in Croatia, then my father refused to send

20 him and sent him to the grandfather's in Glavaticevo.

21 Q. Now, when the war broke out in Konjic in

22 1992 --

23 A. April 6, 1992. I think it was the second day

24 of Ramadan, I'm not sure, but I know it was Ramadan.

25 Q. Did many of the young boys join the TO at

Page 14859

1 that time?

2 A. Yes, even my younger brother, who is younger

3 than Esad, responded to this call, and he wasn't even

4 17 years old at the time. And he was sent there as a

5 courier.

6 Q. So, not only your father joined the TO, but

7 three of your brothers were members of the TO; is that

8 what you're saying?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, I had asked you about a situation on

11 June 6th where some people were killed on your street

12 because of shelling; can you describe to the Court

13 about what happened on June 6th, on your street?

14 A. I think it was around noon, they started

15 shelling the city, and since my youngest brother was

16 outside, my mother and I were worried. And after a

17 certain time when things got calm again, my brother

18 burst into the apartment completely pale, and when we

19 asked him what happened, he wasn't able to respond, he

20 was stuttering. And he simply pronounced that

21 Matsipura (Phon) was killed. That young man lived in

22 my building, he was my age. There were two more men

23 from our neighbourhood together with him.

24 Q. And if I said June 6th, I believe it might

25 have been June 4th instead of June 6th.

Page 14860

1 Do you know whether your brother Esad joined

2 the TO in June of 1992?

3 A. I don't know what month it was, but I

4 remember that my father and three of my brothers joined

5 the army, and that they were given -- my father was

6 given a rifle and the three of my brothers were given

7 also arms.

8 Q. I want to go on in 1992. Your brother Esad

9 was stationed in Celebici in June of 1992; would that

10 be your -- do you remember that?

11 A. Yes, I remember.

12 Q. Now, can you say whether there was anything

13 that you noticed different about Mr. Landzo after he

14 was stationed at Celebici in 1992?

15 A. He was generally shy before the war, and at

16 that time he was more withdrawn. And he used to be

17 tense.

18 Q. Did your mother ever run into someone named

19 Sejo Mustafic?

20 A. Sejo Mustafic used to live in our building,

21 he took an apartment, and he would frequently come on

22 the weekends, home. And on one occasion my mother met

23 him in the entrance of the building, and asked him

24 about Esad, why wasn't he coming. He responded and

25 told her not to worry, that everything was all right.

Page 14861

1 Q. Let me ask you about a named Ibro Mangic. Do

2 you remember that name?

3 A. He lived on a floor above us.

4 Q. Did your mother baby-sit Mr. Mangic's

5 children, or child?

6 A. Yes. She baby-sat young Arman, his son.

7 Q. Do you know what the relationship was between

8 your brother Esad and Ibro Mangic?

9 A. In the city I'm not aware of that, because I

10 wasn't living in the house, but I know that when he

11 transferred to the police, he used to say to my father

12 that there was no need to worry. He used to say that

13 he was treating Esad just like his own son, Arman.

14 Q. So, would it be fair to say that Esad looked

15 to Mr. Ibro as a father figure?

16 A. I think that he did.

17 Q. Do you know what happened to Ibro?

18 A. He was killed in Bradina, together with

19 another eight people.

20 Q. Now, did your brother ever date? Was he in

21 love with a girl during the war?

22 A. Yes, he was.

23 Q. Was her name Vedrana?

24 A. Yes, it was.

25 Q. What was her ethnic background?

Page 14862

1 A. She was Catholic.

2 Q. And did he do everything for her?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And what happened to Vedrana?

5 A. Since her mother left to the part that is now

6 under the control of the HVO, shortly thereafter she

7 left and joined her.

8 Q. And were there people trying to keep Esad

9 from seeing her?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. If you don't know, that's fine. Thank you.

12 I want to ask you a question. Before the

13 summer of 1992, did you ever see your brother Esad

14 involved in any prior acts of violence? Was he ever a

15 violent boy before the summer of 1992?

16 A. Earlier he kept company with Valentin and,

17 for the most part, they were spending time together

18 alone. They would not stay out very late. And he had

19 no problems with anybody else in Konjic.

20 Q. Now, would it be fair to say that your

21 brother, Esad, has basically been in custody since

22 1994?

23 A. He was always being called to give some

24 statements, and they would always say that he would

25 come back after he had given them, but they would

Page 14863

1 always keep him two, and often even more months.

2 After that he would be released for a month

3 or two, and again somebody else would call him, and on

4 one occasion it even happened that Adnan Alkadic took

5 him to give a statement, and since he did not come back

6 in the evening, my brother said that they had taken him

7 to a certain location for safety reasons. He didn't

8 come back for three or four days, and when he

9 reappeared he was all dirty. And he said that he had

10 come back from that location on foot, but from where,

11 that I don't know.

12 Q. Do you remember whether that was 1994 or not?

13 A. I don't know what year it was. I know that

14 it was during the war.

15 Q. Now, is that true also of when he went to

16 Sarajevo to make a statement for this Tribunal?

17 A. That morning when this happened, a cousin of

18 mine came, Zijo Landzo, and said that he had to go to

19 Sarajevo because of some statement, and that he would

20 come back in an hour, but they had kept, they kept him

21 there for, I believe, 45 days.

22 Q. Let me ask you about your knowledge of our

23 attempts to call witnesses in this case. Can you tell

24 the Court about a witness named Sok, do you know Sok?

25 A. Madam Nancy was in Konjic recently, and when

Page 14864

1 Sok entered the room together with Mr. Sut, he said

2 that he should not give any statements, no statements,

3 because his lawyer had told him so. When Madam Nancy

4 asked who his lawyer was, he said that he did not have

5 one, but that Mr. Salihovic advised him not to give any

6 more statements.

7 Q. What was that name again?

8 A. Whose name?

9 Q. The name of the person who said that he

10 should not give any statements?

11 JUDGE JAN: Salihovic?

12 A. Mr. Salihovic.


14 Q. Do you know a person named Salihovic?

15 A. I know that this is the counsel to Mr. Hazim

16 Delic.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 Now, when Mrs. Boler arrived in Sarajevo, was

19 there a message waiting for her about accommodations?

20 JUDGE JAN: Is this all relevant for our

21 purposes?

22 MS. McMURREY: It has to do with our attempts

23 to bring witnesses.

24 JUDGE JAN: Whatever it is, the witness is

25 now here, for one reason or the other, you've given

Page 14865

1 them up. Why pursue this line?

2 MS. McMURREY: Some of them I was not able to

3 bring forward. But at this point I have no further

4 questions for Miss Landzo and I pass the witness.

5 Thank you very much. But have you to stay

6 here.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination of

8 this witness?

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, defence of

10 Mr. Delalic has no questions of this witness.

11 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, we have no

12 questions for this witness, thank you.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Does the Prosecution

14 have any questions?

15 MR. COWLES: We have no questions, Your

16 Honour.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No questions. Thank you

18 very much, young lady, you are discharged.

19 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, it's 11.30, are

20 we going to take the 11.30 break this morning, or are

21 we going to take this next witness? I'm prepared and

22 he's prepared, I just thought this might be a good time

23 to take the break.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will break and come

25 back at noon.

Page 14866

1 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.

2 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 12.02 p.m.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.

5 Swear the witness, please.

6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

8 truth.

9 THE WITNESS: Ramo Salihovic.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may take your seat,

11 please, sit down.

12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

13 Examined by Ms. McMurrey

14 Q. Mr. Salihovic, it looks a little

15 uncomfortable, do you want to pull your chair a little

16 closer to the microphones? Yes, I think that will be

17 better.

18 A. Thank you.

19 Q. Could you introduce yourself to the Court,

20 please?

21 A. Yes, I can. I will introduce myself, I am

22 Ramo Salihovic, born in Bjelovcina, 16th August 1943,

23 in the Municipality of Konjic in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 Q. Thank you very much. Now, you've never

25 testified in Court --

Page 14867

1 A. You're welcome.

2 Q. -- have you?

3 A. I never had an opportunity to testify before

4 a court and this is why I would like to request of the

5 Trial Chamber to forgive me if I get confused here.

6 Q. I am sure that the Trial Chamber will forgive

7 you. And if the reason that you're confused has to do

8 with any of my questioning, please stop me and let me,

9 you know, clarify my question for you because it could

10 be my fault.

11 A. Thank you.

12 Q. Thank you. Now, you were born in the Konjic

13 Municipality, have you lived in Bjelovcina, all of our

14 life?

15 A. Yes, I have.

16 Q. And you served in the TO during the war in

17 1992, '93 and '94, didn't you?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. And just so the Court knows, were you the

20 cook for the TO then?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, I want to go back to 1992, in your

23 Village of Bjelovcina, is it true that some of the

24 Serbs living in your village refused to be armed?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14868

1 Q. And the ones that refused to be armed, were

2 they arrested?

3 A. Only brought in for questioning and then

4 released.

5 Q. So the ones that were arrested and held were

6 ones that possessed arms in your village; is that

7 right?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are telling him

10 that.

11 MS. McMURREY: I am just asking him. I'm

12 sorry, did I not form it as a question? I'm sorry.

13 With the assistance of the usher, I would like to show

14 this document to Mr. Salihovic. And I do have to say

15 this document has not been provided to the Prosecution

16 right now. I have an English translation of this.

17 JUDGE JAN: What is this document?

18 MS. McMURREY: It's a list that he prepared

19 of the people in his Village of Serb ethnicity that

20 were armed. And here's English translations for the

21 Court and for the Prosecution.

22 MR. TURONE: We complain for the fact that

23 the Prosecution did not receive this document in

24 advance.

25 MS. McMURREY: And I will ask --

Page 14869

1 Q. Mr. Salihovic, did you prepare this list from

2 your memory recently?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And when did you prepare this list?

5 A. Before coming to this Tribunal.

6 Q. Was that this morning?

7 A. No, last night.

8 Q. I just want the record to reflect that I did

9 not have possession of this until this morning. And

10 these are the people that you have personal knowledge

11 of in your Village of Bjelovcina?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And is this list an accurate list of the

14 people that you knew possessed arms in Bjelovcina in

15 May of 1992?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I would like to offer this document into

18 evidence right now, just because of impeachment

19 purposes, Your Honour, the Prosecution witnesses

20 testified from Bjelovcina that they were not armed and

21 that they did not have weapons. And I would just like

22 to offer this as impeachment testimony at this point of

23 the testimony of Mirko Babic.

24 MR. TURONE: We object to that, Your Honour.

25 This is a document which we cannot even understand how

Page 14870

1 it was reconstructed by the witness.

2 JUDGE JAN: But from his memory.

3 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, Mr. Turone is

4 welcome to cross-examine the witness regarding it. I

5 would like to offer it into evidence for impeachment

6 purposes.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The document is all

8 admitted by this witness?

9 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: On his own?

11 MS. McMURREY: On his own, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's admitted.

13 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That's Document D 73/4.

15 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Salihovic, coming from the Village

17 of Bjelovcina, did you know a man named Hristo Vukalo?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And was he armed or not armed in May of

20 1992?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How do you know him?

23 A. He was. Yes, he was.

24 Q. With the assistance of the usher, please,

25 could you show the witness that photograph?

Page 14871

1 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Document D 74/4.

2 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.

3 Q. Mr. Salihovic, do you know that person in

4 that photograph?

5 A. Yes, this person is Mirko Babic, born in the

6 Village of Bjelovcina, I believe in 1932 or maybe

7 '34, '32 or '34. He was a forester by trade. He was

8 also working for the company shipment. He worked in

9 Bjelovcina. He was never married. He lived together

10 with his brother in a family household.

11 Q. I would like the record to reflect that the

12 witness has identified the photograph as Mirko Babic

13 and this is a photograph taken from his testimony in

14 this courtroom. I would like to offer it into evidence

15 at this time.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any views on the

17 photograph?

18 MR. TURONE: May we see the picture on the

19 ELMO, please?

20 JUDGE JAN: You can see the picture

21 otherwise.

22 MR. TURONE: Simply to have a look at it. I

23 don't mean I don't trust that, it's just a matter of

24 principle.

25 MS. McMURREY: I don't take that as any

Page 14872

1 attack on me, Mr. Turone.

2 MR. TURONE: No objection.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's admitted.

4 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much.

5 Q. Mr. Salihovic, I believe you said that Mr.

6 Babic was your neighbour, have you known him for a long

7 period of time?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And were you aware of an incident in which

10 Mirko Babic injured his leg prior to 1992?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you tell the Court about this injury

13 that he suffered?

14 A. I don't know to what extent you will

15 understand me, what the job that they were working on

16 was when he was injured. I believe that they were --

17 they had a lime pit that they were working on. They

18 were processing it in order to produce this

19 construction material. And while they were burning

20 this lime, when it didn't light immediately, so they

21 poured in gasoline and they lit it up then. And as the

22 flames jumped at them, Mirko Babic, Gotovac Rajko,

23 Marijam Rajic, Savo Gotovac, were all injured. And I

24 believe there were others who were injured there too,

25 but I do not remember them.

Page 14873

1 Q. Do you remember where Mr. Babic's injury

2 was? What part of his body?

3 A. I believe it was his right leg, maybe in some

4 other parts of his body, but I believe it was the right

5 leg that was injured the most.

6 Q. And did you see him being -- his bandages and

7 his results of that injury?

8 A. I saw the bandages, but I did not see the

9 consequence after he left the hospital, after he had

10 been treated there.

11 Q. And do you know whether he was treated in the

12 Konjic Hospital or not? If you don't know, it's okay,

13 but --

14 A. In Konjic.

15 Q. Thank you. In all --

16 A. You're welcome.

17 Q. And that injury from this forestry accident,

18 that happened before the war started in 1992, didn't

19 it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, was Mirko Babic involved in the SDS

22 party in your village?

23 A. Yes. He was the president of the SDS party.

24 Q. And did he participate in arming the people

25 of Bjelovcina?

Page 14874

1 A. I don't know about the arming, but others

2 were bringing in weapons and most probably he was

3 involved in his distribution too.

4 Q. When you say others were involved in bringing

5 in weapons, who were the other people involved in

6 bringing in weapons?

7 A. The main person for the bringing in of the

8 weapons was Dusko Banjo, the son of Manchilo Banjo

9 (Phon).

10 Q. And was Dusko Banjo related to Branko

11 Gotovac?

12 A. They do have family ties. However, I don't

13 know if he was connected with him in any other ways.

14 That I cannot speak to.

15 Q. Now, in May of 1992, did Mirko Babic have in

16 his possession weapons other than his little pistol

17 that he had associated with this job in the forestry

18 business?

19 A. Mirko Babic did possess weapons in 1992. He

20 had a pistol, Berretta, which he had from before and,

21 in addition to that, he had other weapons.

22 Q. And can you describe what kind of other

23 weapons he possessed too?

24 A. He had an automatic rifle.

25 Q. Was there some kind of installation for a

Page 14875

1 machine gun next to his home?

2 A. Above the house, maybe 100 or 200 metres up

3 from it, there was a dugout and they had set up a

4 machine gun there.

5 Q. So if Mr. Babic had said that the only weapon

6 he had was a pistol, would he be telling the truth?

7 A. He would not.

8 Q. If he said that none of the Serbs in his

9 village were armed, would he be telling the truth?

10 A. That is not true.

11 Q. And if he said that he had never been in an

12 incident which burned his leg before the war, would he

13 be telling the truth?

14 A. He would not.

15 Q. If Mr. Babic said that he did not have a

16 drinking problem, would he be telling the truth?

17 MR. TURONE: Objection, Your Honour, to this

18 question. It's not relevant.

19 MS. McMURREY: It is relevant for impeachment

20 purposes. He took the stand here and said under oath

21 that he did not have a drinking problem. As far as

22 credibility goes, I believe it's important. And if he

23 is his neighbour and he knows, then he should be able

24 to answer.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,

Page 14876

1 please.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has only stated Mirko

3 Babic's drinking problem is that he is his neighbour.

4 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I

5 can't hear you.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The only reason why he

7 can give that evidence is because he is his neighbour.

8 MS. McMURREY: Because he knows Mirko Babic

9 personally.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can ask him

11 that question, if you like.

12 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.

13 Q. So if Mr. Babic said he did not have a

14 drinking problem, would he be telling the truth?

15 A. He would not be telling.

16 Q. I would like to show you another photograph

17 with the assistance of the usher now, please.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Document D 75/4.


20 Q. Mr. Salihovic, do you know that man in that

21 photograph? I know that it's not very clear, but can

22 you pick him out?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And who is that man?

25 A. Yes. May I start with my answer?

Page 14877

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Yes, this is Branko Babic, born in

3 Bjelovcina. His father is Jovo and mother, Stana. He

4 lived in the Village of Homolde most recently. He

5 worked in the UNIS's company, Igman in Konjic.

6 Q. And, Mr. Gotovac, did he suffer from any

7 physical problem before the war?

8 A. I am not aware of his having any physical

9 problems before the war, with the exception of

10 something. I don't know, he had some kind of hernia or

11 something.

12 MR. TURONE: I beg your pardon, just to

13 clarify, which Mr. Gotovac you are talking about,

14 because he is talking about Branko Babic.

15 MS. McMURREY: Yes, I need to clear that up.

16 Q. Are you talking about Branko Babic or Branko

17 Gotovac?

18 MR. TURONE: I am afraid she's

19 cross-examining her own witness, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The transcript will

21 clarify which of them.

22 MS. McMURREY: I believe the witness is a bit

23 nervous.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think so. You

25 asked him whether he knew Branko Babic.

Page 14878

1 MS. McMURREY: Then I asked the wrong

2 question and I apologise.

3 Q. Do you know Branko Gotovac?

4 A. I do know Branko Gotovac, yes, and I was

5 talking about Branko Gotovac.

6 Q. Thank you very much. And have you known

7 Branko Gotovac for a long time?

8 A. Yes, we grew up together in the village where

9 I was born also, except that he was a bit older than I

10 was -- than I am.

11 Q. Were you the same age as some of his younger

12 siblings?

13 A. Yes, maybe we are one year apart or so.

14 Q. And this hernia that you talked about that

15 Mr. Gotovac had, had he had that for a long period of

16 time prior to 1992?

17 A. I believe so. Yes, because that condition

18 was in their family.

19 Q. Can you explain what you mean by that

20 condition was in their family?

21 A. How do you mean? His brothers had it and his

22 father had it. I knew his father because he was killed

23 and his father was killed. He worked in the company

24 and he was killed when some explosive was set on fire.

25 That was in the 60s sometime.

Page 14879

1 Q. With the assistance of the usher, I would

2 like to show Mr. Salihovic a photograph that's already

3 in evidence in this Court and the registry has said I

4 may have the wrong exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Document D 76/4.


7 Q. Now, Mr. Salihovic, do you recognise that

8 condition that you see on this man?

9 A. Yes, his brother had a similar kind of

10 condition.

11 Q. Is that the hernia that you were aware of

12 before 1992?

13 A. As I said, it was in their family.

14 Q. And were you able to see that condition with

15 the family while they were swimming, et cetera?











Page 14880

1 A. Yes, I would go swimming with his brothers,

2 because they were around my age, maybe a couple of

3 years younger or older, so I would see these physical

4 conditions. And if you will excuse me for my extending

5 this, one of his brothers, supposedly for that reason,

6 did not have any children. But I don't know if that

7 could be a reason for it.

8 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I would like to

9 offer this photograph into evidence again. It is in

10 evidence, I think, yes.

11 MR. TURONE: May I see it, please?

12 MS. McMURREY: I would love for Mr. Turone to

13 take a look at it. It was offered into evidence under

14 the Prosecution witness Branko Gotovac, but I don't

15 know what the exhibit is.

16 I ask that it be admitted into evidence for

17 the purpose of impeachment.

18 JUDGE JAN: It's already in evidence.

19 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much.


21 Q. Mr. Salihovic, Branko Gotovac was aware that

22 Mirko Babic had burned his leg long before the war,

23 wasn't he?

24 JUDGE JAN: How does he know?


Page 14881

1 Q. Did Branko Gotovac know Mirko Babic well?

2 A. Yes, he did know him. I believe that they

3 are about the same age. They knew each other as young

4 men, they went to school together and they knew each

5 other.

6 Q. And were some of the other people present at

7 the accident with the forestry materials, were those

8 related to Branko Gotovac?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And so, if Branko Gotovac told this Tribunal

11 that this hernia was a result of beating in Celebici,

12 would he have been telling the truth?

13 A. He would not.

14 MS. McMURREY: I pass the witness. Your

15 Honour.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination of

17 this witness?

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we have no

19 questions of this witness. Thank you.

20 MR.OLUJIC: The defence for the second

21 accused, Mr. Mucic, also has no questions of this

22 witness.

23 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, the defence of

24 Mr. Hazim Delic has no questions of this witness.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination by

Page 14882

1 the Prosecution?

2 MR. TURONE: Yes, Your Honour thank you, just

3 a few questions.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, please.


6 Q. Good morning Mr. Salihovic, my name is Turone

7 and I'm going to ask you some questions for the

8 Prosecution.

9 Concerning this list of inhabitants of

10 Bjelovcina you were talking about a moment ago, did you

11 see personally all these people with arms in their

12 hands?

13 A. I did see these people, because they were

14 there, and I was there, and I lived there, and I affirm

15 this.

16 Q. You mean you can, could see all of them with

17 arms in their, in their hands? Is that your testimony?

18 Personally saw them?

19 A. What I have written down I would not have

20 written down had I not seen it.

21 Q. Okay, let's come now to the injury of

22 Mr. Mirko Babic, this injury supposedly which took

23 place before 1992. Could you say when was that, which

24 year?

25 A. Maybe sometime around 1980, maybe even later.

Page 14883

1 Maybe before, but the important thing is he received

2 that injury before the war.

3 Q. Yes, but I would like to know approximately

4 the year in which it happened.

5 A. I believe somewhere around '80, '81,

6 somewhere around there.

7 Q. And this incident around 1980 or 1981, could

8 you say who were the persons present there who could

9 see the incident?

10 A. There were other people from the village

11 there, there were other people there. Because this was

12 a joint effort, it was not something that was done by

13 one or two persons, it would be 10, 15, even 20 people

14 involved. So, people present there who were even

15 involved Rajko Gotovac, Savo Gotovac, Marijan Rajic who

16 was a forester born in the village of Javorik in the

17 municipality of Konjic and he had permanent residence

18 in the village of Celebici, also in the Municipality of

19 Konjic, and he was a forester by trade.

20 Q. At that time around 1980 or 1981, what was

21 your position, your profession?

22 A. At that time I worked in the Igman Company of

23 the UNIS conglomerate, and I worked in the service

24 department.

25 Q. Is that correct that you were not present at

Page 14884

1 this incident you are talking about? Is that correct?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And you said you couldn't see the

4 consequences of the injury after the bandage was taken

5 off; but could you see the injury before the bandage

6 was put on the leg of Mr. Babic?

7 A. I did not.

8 Q. So, am I correct that you do not know exactly

9 which part of the right leg was injured and in which

10 way; is that correct?

11 A. It was under his knee. That is where I saw

12 the bandage on him.

13 Q. So, you only saw a bandage under the knee; is

14 that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I'm coming now to the hernia of Mr. Gotovac.

17 You said you had occasion to go swimming with his

18 brother and his brother had also a problem like this.

19 Is that your testimony?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. So, going swimming with the brother of

22 Mr. Gotovac, or Branko Gotovac, you could see the

23 hernia of the brother of Mr. Branko Gotovac; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Correct, yes.

Page 14885

1 Q. And you say this is a problem which affected

2 the entire family, more or less; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How many members of the family did this

5 problem affect, if you know?

6 A. Three members. Three members, and if we

7 include the father, it would be four.

8 Q. Could you see half naked, let's say, all of

9 them?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Which occasions?

12 A. On the occasion of swimming or playing ball,

13 they would strip to the waist and they would go

14 swimming.

15 Q. So, it is not correct what you said before,

16 that you went swimming only with the brother of

17 Branko Gotovac; is that your testimony now?

18 A. I said with the brothers, with the neighbours,

19 with the children, we would all go together.

20 MR. TURONE: I have no further questions,

21 Your Honour.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination of

23 this witness?

24 MS. McMURREY: No re-examination, Your

25 Honour.

Page 14886

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much,

2 Mr. Salihovic, you are discharged.

3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours, for

4 having invited me here to give my contribution, to the

5 extent that I can.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other witnesses?

7 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, out of the nine

8 witnesses that we expected Sunday night two arrived.

9 And the Victim and Witnesses is in the Sarajevo airport

10 right now at two o'clock to supposedly bring three more

11 witnesses tonight. So I'm asking the Court's

12 indulgence. If they arrive tonight I will most

13 certainly put them on tomorrow. And Victim and

14 Witnesses has assured me that they're trying their best

15 to get them.

16 They were all notified, they were all willing

17 to come, but for some reason they didn't get the

18 authorisation from their commanding officer.

19 Ms. Vividovic from the Bosnian Embassy sent it to the

20 Ministry of Defence, the Ministry of Defence sent it to

21 their units, but on Sunday they said they didn't have

22 it. They now are aware that they have the

23 authorisation to come and they should be picking them

24 up at the airport in Sarajevo at two o'clock today.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: All you are saying is

Page 14887

1 that you no longer have any witnesses for today.

2 MS. McMURREY: That is correct, Your Honour,

3 the bottom line.

4 JUDGE JAN: That's only three, what about the

5 other four?

6 MS. McMURREY: The other four we can't get.

7 They were not under subpoena. I feel that if I issue a

8 subpoena right now for them, they may show up and cost

9 the Tribunal the same kind of money the others did and

10 not want to testify the way our interviews went last

11 month when we were in Konjic. So we're not going to

12 try to subpoena them at this point.

13 But I would like these three witnesses that

14 are willing to come, and they have the authorisation,

15 and I feel certain they will be here soon.

16 JUDGE JAN: They are serving in the armed

17 forces?

18 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour. They are

19 all stationed in the units for the Federation of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina Army right now.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose this is the

22 end of the proceedings for today. So, the Trial

23 Chamber will rise and we will reassemble at 10 a.m.

24 tomorrow morning.

25 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 12.40

Page 14888

1 p.m. to be reconvened on the 22nd

2 day of July, 1998 at 10.00 a.m.