1. 1 Wednesday, 29 July 1998

    2 --- Upon commencing at 10.12 a.m.

    3 (Open session)

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

    5 gentlemen, may we have the appearances, please?

    6 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honours,

    7 Teresa McHenry for the Prosecution appearing with

    8 Mr. Turone, Mr. Cowles and Mr. Huber.

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the

    10 appearances for the Defence?

    11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours,

    12 Edina Residovic representing Mr. Zejnil Delic who is

    13 defended by my colleague, co-counsel Mr. Eugene

    14 O'Sullivan of Canada.

    15 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours,

    16 Zeljko Olujic, Defence counsel of Croatia. I represent

    17 Zdravko Mucic, together with me he is represented by

    18 Mr. Tomislav Kuzmanovic all the way from the United

    19 States of America.

    20 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours, my

    21 name is Salih Karabdic lawyer from Sarajevo

    22 representing Mr. Hazim Delic together with Thomas

    23 Moran, a lawyer of Houston, Texas.

    24 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours,

    25 I'm Cynthia McMurrey, and along with Nancy Boler and

  2. 1 Calvin Saunders we represent Esad Landzo. Mrs. Boler

    2 will be absent from the courtroom this morning. She

    3 has business to attend to outside. Thank you.

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mrs. McMurrey, we have

    5 your client for cross-examination, is that correct?

    6 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, I believe

    7 that's correct.

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which of you choose to

    9 have the cross-examination? Mrs. Residovic, I thought

    10 you were in charge; how did you organise your

    11 cross-examination?

    12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I already stated

    13 that the Defence of Mr. Delic has no questions for this

    14 witness. The cross-examination will continue as in the

    15 indictment, starting with the Defence representing

    16 Mr. Mucic, followed by the Defence representing

    17 Mr. Delic. Thank you.

    18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you, very much.

    19 Mr. Olujic, you may start your cross-examination.

    20 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    21 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you are you still

    22 under oath.


    24 Cross-examined by Mr. Olujic:

    25 MR. OLUJIC:

  3. 1 Good morning, Mr. Landzo. We will talk about

    2 certain matters. There is no need for me to introduce

    3 myself to you, you know very well that I represent

    4 Mr. Mucic. Everything that applied to the other

    5 witnesses when using our language, of course, also

    6 applies to this conversation of ours this morning.

    7 Q. Mr. Landzo, when describing your physical and

    8 mental health since your childhood, do you think that

    9 you were physically less developed than the others in

    10 your generation?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Mr. Landzo, were you afraid of your peers?

    13 A. Depends on who you have in mind.

    14 Q. Did you allow others to beat you up at

    15 school?

    16 A. No, I had no problems throughout my school

    17 years.

    18 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, Your Honours, we're

    19 having a technical problem. I hate to break into this,

    20 but we're not getting the transcript on the screen, and

    21 I don't know whether I'm pushing the wrong button or --

    22 it's off and it won't go on.

    23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you still have the

    24 problem?

    25 MR. MORAN: Yes, the light that says off is

  4. 1 lit and none of the other, or the one that's

    2 transcript, apparently that switch is broken.

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly get in touch with

    4 the technicians and they will come and see what to do.

    5 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, apparently it can't

    6 be immediately fixed. I guess we'll have to live

    7 without it. I'm sorry for stopping the proceedings.

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If it's only one, I

    9 don't know how we can adjust by moving a little bit.

    10 MR. MORAN: The apparent problem seems to be

    11 that the switch itself is not working. And it's going

    12 to take some time to fix that, so we'll just have to

    13 live without it.

    14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for

    15 tolerating the inadequacies, we will look at it. You

    16 may proceed, please.

    17 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you Your Honours, until

    18 this technical problem is offset Mr. Moran, if he wants

    19 to, can take my seat and follow the transcripts on my

    20 screen.

    21 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, Mr. Karabdic will

    22 sit down there.

    23 MR. OLUJIC: I apologise, we still have a

    24 minor technical detail to take care of. I apologise,

    25 Your Honours. We had to take care of these technical

  5. 1 affairs so that my colleague, Mr. Salih Karabdic and

    2 myself can follow through the headphones.

    3 Q. Mr. Landzo, in the course of the direct, you

    4 mentioned that you changed your former Defence counsel,

    5 my colleague, Mr. Bracinovic. Do you think that he was

    6 not defending you well?

    7 A. Well, not the best defence and not the worst

    8 defence, either. He has not satisfied my requests.

    9 Q. Furthermore, Mr. Landzo, in the course of the

    10 examination-in-chief, you also changed a second

    11 colleague of mine, Mr. Ackerman; do you think that he

    12 was defending you poorly, too?

    13 A. I asked from him to let me make certain

    14 confessions, but he didn't allow me to do that. I

    15 thought that to a certain degree he should have

    16 followed my desires. I didn't want this trial to go on

    17 for such a long period of time. I wanted to shorten

    18 it, but he was against it for an unknown reason, and

    19 then simply he would not come to me to allow me to tell

    20 him the facts. He was not familiar with the facts.

    21 Maybe he was a good Defence counsel.

    22 Q. But if I said that he was not defending you

    23 well, would I be right?

    24 A. Yes, that would be my general conclusion.

    25 Q. Mr. Landzo, when you sat into the witness

  6. 1 bench, you said that you are doing this because other

    2 witnesses have not turned up; is that true?

    3 A. Excuse me could you repeat the question?

    4 Q. When you sat on the witness bench, you said

    5 that you decided to appear here because the other

    6 witnesses, you wanted to speak on your behalf here in

    7 the Court; is that true?

    8 A. I have been planning this for a longer period

    9 of time, but I also expected that the other guards from

    10 the Celebici camp would come to tell the truth. But

    11 since somebody or something prevented them from doing

    12 it, I was compelled to. And I also wanted to come here

    13 to sit at this bench and tell the truth.

    14 Q. Tell us, Mr. Landzo, what is something or

    15 someone who prevented them from coming here? Do you

    16 think this is a case of conspiracy against you?

    17 A. I can just tell you my opinion. I can't say

    18 anything else.

    19 Q. But if I said that this is maybe a case of

    20 conspiracy because the witnesses did not turn up

    21 because as you say somebody or something prevented them

    22 from coming, would that be a conspiracy,?

    23 A. I can tell you my opinion, if you want.

    24 Q. Could you answer me, please?

    25 A. The witnesses that were supposed to come here

  7. 1 to testify are all fact witnesses, i.e. people who were

    2 in the Celebici camp who knew who was the commander and

    3 knew what was going on. It seems to me that somebody

    4 was against this line of thought, and that's why they

    5 didn't appear, I think. That's my opinion. But I will

    6 not go beyond this whole story. I think it's better

    7 for me to finish with this answer.

    8 Q. So, this is a case of conspiracy, isn't it?

    9 A. So it seems to me.

    10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Landzo, when describing your

    11 diseases, such as asthma, bronchitis and others, you

    12 said you were sick; do you often feel sick?

    13 A. Well, that depends. Sometimes when the

    14 weather changes, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.

    15 When I'm involved in certain physical activities. But

    16 that's only during the night when I try to go to bed,

    17 to sleep, then I have to put a bigger pillow under my

    18 head so that I can use the asthma devices, the pumps

    19 which help me to go asleep.

    20 Q. Tell us, Mr. Landzo, as an adult person, do

    21 you allow others to give you orders?

    22 A. Not now.

    23 Q. When you say not now, tell me when did you

    24 allow others to give you orders?

    25 A. Until some two years ago, perhaps. Yes, to

  8. 1 tell me what to do. Until I have sufficiently

    2 stabilised my personality to be able to assume the

    3 responsibility for myself, instead of others doing this

    4 on my behalf.

    5 Q. Do you think about yourself that you are a

    6 fighter for justice?

    7 A. A simple man living on this planet, I was a

    8 simple soldier who thought that it was his duty to

    9 defend the country, whether I am a warrior of justice

    10 or not, that's not up to me to say.

    11 Q. I'm satisfied with your answer, thank you.

    12 Tell me, Mr. Landzo, you said that they called you by

    13 the nickname Zenga, when was the first time they used

    14 this nickname when addressing you?

    15 A. Somewhere at the end or beginning of 1992,

    16 the beginning of 1992, somewhere in February. I'm not

    17 sure, because this is the period upon my return,

    18 together with Cipeta from Herzegovina, that was perhaps

    19 in the following few weeks that, jovial and jokingly he

    20 started addressing me with the nickname.

    21 Q. Yes, you were in Croatia, weren't you?

    22 A. My assumption was that that was either

    23 western Herzegovina or Dalmatia, I really wasn't sure

    24 where I was.

    25 Q. We will talk about this at a later point in

  9. 1 time. I have another question for you. Do you know

    2 where this abbreviation Zenga comes from?

    3 A. I know.

    4 Q. From where does it come?

    5 A. From Zbor Narodne Garde the legal military

    6 units in Croatia that resisted the then JNA forces.

    7 Q. Do you know when Zbor Narodne Garde was

    8 founded?

    9 A. I don't know that. I know that they existed,

    10 but I don't know that.

    11 Q. If I said that Zbor Narodne Garde, at that

    12 time, when you were allegedly called Zenga had not

    13 existed, that is that this military unit was

    14 established through a decree of the Croatian

    15 headquarters in the summer of 1992; would you agree

    16 with me?

    17 A. I told you I don't know when they were

    18 founded. I just told you when they started using the

    19 nickname when addressing me. I don't know when this

    20 was founded. I also know that many Muslims from Bosnia

    21 were members of the military, of the internal affairs

    22 police and the Zenga units. You know, it's a lengthy

    23 procedure at war time to pass a law, so I don't know

    24 when they were established.

    25 Q. At any rate, they did not exist at the time

  10. 1 -- well, very well.

    2 Mr. Landzo, you said in the course of the

    3 examination-in-chief where my esteemed colleague was

    4 putting questions to you, you said that the HOS units

    5 were fighting around Zadar; is that true?

    6 A. My assumption was that it was somewhere in

    7 the direction of Knin I don't know exactly where they

    8 were fighting. I just related to you my assumption, my

    9 thought. I was not a military person so I was not able

    10 to investigate maps to know where exactly they were

    11 heading, so it was just my assumption.

    12 Q. Do you know what sort of units this could

    13 have been?

    14 A. What do you mean which?

    15 Q. What units, what were they called, these

    16 units?

    17 A. I don't know, I don't understand your

    18 question. Could you elaborate?

    19 Q. You said it was somewhere around Knin or

    20 Zadar that the HOS units were fighting; do you know

    21 what was the name of these units?

    22 A. I don't know that.

    23 Q. I'm quite happy if you say I don't know.

    24 A. Well, they all called them HOS Croatian

    25 defence units or armed units, I don't know exactly what

  11. 1 was the name of the individual units, I really don't

    2 know. Each unit had its own name.

    3 Q. But you, yourself, say that you're just

    4 assuming, so you're not sure?

    5 A. I just know where I was, that there were

    6 people wearing black uniforms that, on their sleeves

    7 they had the round insignia with HOS and they also had

    8 the flag of the internal affairs units, what was the

    9 name of these units, I really don't know.

    10 Q. Do you know the name of an officer in this

    11 unit?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Mr. Landzo, you said that you stayed in a

    14 camp in the Republic of Croatia, you stated this in the

    15 course of the examination-in-chief, was this a camp

    16 training military units, or was this a detainee camp?

    17 A. You didn't understand me well, I didn't say

    18 this was in Croatia, I know that where I was, the

    19 houses looked like the houses that you usually find in

    20 Western Herzegovina and Dalmatia; whether this was

    21 Croatia or Bosnia-Herzegovina, I didn't know, I didn't

    22 have a map, I didn't know the name of the village, I

    23 didn't know the name of the town to be able to know

    24 exactly where I was, so this was not in Croatia,

    25 according to me, maybe it could have been in Croatia or

  12. 1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but I'm not sure.

    2 Q. But you were able to identify this only on

    3 the basis of the stone made houses; isn't that true?

    4 A. Yes, because in other parts of

    5 Bosnia-Herzegovina this sort of houses are usually not

    6 found. This is typical of that part of

    7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is Herzegovina and the part of

    8 Croatia which is Dalmatia, where they usually build

    9 houses in this way.

    10 Q. If I now enumerated to you five regions,

    11 provinces, where identical houses can be found, namely

    12 houses made of stone, would you agree that you could

    13 have at that time been at any part, any province, any

    14 region of either Bosnia-Herzegovina or Croatia at that

    15 time?

    16 A. Could you enumerate them?

    17 Q. These, this could be in western Herzegovina,

    18 it could be in Leca, it could be in Imotski, it could

    19 be Knin it could be in Istria, these are all stone made

    20 houses that you find there. The terrain is also shaped

    21 in a similar manner.

    22 A. You are right, but in Knin, you know it well,

    23 we couldn't go to Knin, when I use the term Dalmatia,

    24 I'm referring to the area from Dubrovnik to Rijeka when

    25 I say Western Herzegovina I'm referring to the

  13. 1 territory which was under the control of the legal

    2 authorities, so I couldn't go to Nevesinje an or

    3 Trebinje in Eastern Herzegovina because there were

    4 Serbs there, so that was my assumption, we were heading

    5 from Konjic to Neretva, we turned to tarmac so it must

    6 have been a road from Herzegovina towards Dalmatia, it

    7 couldn't have been in Eastern Herzegovina.

    8 Q. In any case, you do not know, either the

    9 place or the city in proximity of that camp?

    10 A. I believe I have heard that close to that

    11 village there was one of the state roads leading to

    12 Split, but I really couldn't tell you whether that was

    13 in Croatia or in Bosnia. But as I concluded on the

    14 basis of the buildings, the configuration of the land,

    15 this is my assumption.

    16 Q. Did you ever go out of the camp?

    17 A. That was a village.

    18 Q. Did you come among other people?

    19 A. Do you mean the inhabitants?

    20 Q. Yes.

    21 A. No, not much.

    22 Q. Can you name the people, the inhabitants,

    23 their names, give us their names with whom you

    24 contacted?

    25 A. I believe that we spent the first night, his

  14. 1 name, first name, was Jure, if I remember correctly.

    2 Q. And his wife's name?

    3 A. Mara or Marija, something like that, I am not

    4 sure. And later on we would come and visit him and if

    5 they left us out of the camp.

    6 Q. How long did you remain in the camp?

    7 A. I cannot tell you exactly, but I believe it

    8 was some 20 to 25 days.

    9 Q. You say that even today in Konjic, people

    10 know you by this nickname of Zenga, did you oppose

    11 that, were you against this nickname?

    12 A. Even if I opposed it, I couldn't make them

    13 shut up or force them not to call me by that nickname.

    14 Q. Tell me, please, you said that you've spent

    15 some 25 days in the camp and that you also went out of

    16 the camp. How is it possible that you really don't

    17 know where the camp was? You know the name of the man

    18 where you spent the night, you know the name of his

    19 wife and you don't know which geographical location you

    20 were.

    21 A. I can describe in which geographical area I

    22 was located and then you can conclude for yourself.

    23 Q. Mr. Landzo, I said I could enumerate five

    24 areas, five regions, which would be of the identical

    25 configuration. I only wanted an answer from you. How

  15. 1 come that you spent --

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't you think you've

    3 made sufficient emphasis on that? You can move on to

    4 something else.

    5 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    6 Q. Mr. Landzo, while staying in the camp, who

    7 was your first superior? What was his name?

    8 A. I can enumerate the names, but I am not

    9 sure. Some were called by their nicknames, so I cannot

    10 tell you exactly with precision.

    11 Q. So if I assert that if I were to say that you

    12 cannot name the man who was your first superior, you

    13 couldn't state his name and surname, am I right?

    14 A. That was not an organisation. In the

    15 morning, anybody would come in and wake us up, tell us

    16 to rise and would take us out to a shooting range. On

    17 the first day somebody came, the next day somebody

    18 else, the third day, the third day. If I were to see

    19 these people today, I would recognise them and I'd

    20 maybe know the nicknames by which they went, but I am

    21 not a computer mind.

    22 Q. I am satisfied. Mr. Landzo, do you know who

    23 was the first superior of the superior? What was his

    24 name?

    25 A. Well, I can assume --

  16. 1 Q. No, I want you to say only what you know.

    2 A. I am not sure.

    3 Q. What rank did the commander have?

    4 A. They called him Captain, but I saw no

    5 insignia, no ranks on his uniform. These were not

    6 regular formations as was the case with the JNA on the

    7 other hand.

    8 Q. Are you sure he was called Captain?

    9 A. Yes. That is what Jure told us. He told us

    10 to go to the Captain. I don't know whether that was

    11 just an expression he used or if he really had that

    12 rank.

    13 Q. If I were to assert that in the Zbor Narodne

    14 Garde, nobody could be called a Captain, would I be

    15 right in that?

    16 A. I didn't say I was in that, in the ZNG. I

    17 said I was in a village where the HOS unit was

    18 stationed and I didn't mention Zenga.

    19 Q. If I were to state that among the HOS units

    20 nobody would turn to his commander with the rank of

    21 Captain, would I be right?

    22 A. I heard that in Bosnia and in Herzegovina, I

    23 heard that some new ranks were introduced and Croatian

    24 terms were used for the ranks, but I am telling you

    25 what that man told me. I am not saying this is the

  17. 1 truth. But that is what the man told us; to go to the

    2 Captain.

    3 Q. Do you know the precise date when you came to

    4 the camp?

    5 A. I really cannot tell you that.

    6 Q. Do you know the month?

    7 A. Approximately, if you want me to tell you

    8 that.

    9 Q. No, only if you remember.

    10 A. No, I can tell you approximately because the

    11 weather, it was warm, the period of warm weather.

    12 Q. Whom do you remember among your peers with

    13 whom you stayed in the camp 25 days? Can you remember

    14 these names and surnames and enumerate them?

    15 A. Two or three names I remember. There was a

    16 group. They told me that they came from Central

    17 Bosnia. One's name was Osman, a Muslim. And the

    18 second one was Dragan and a third one Goran. These are

    19 the names that I remember.

    20 Q. Can you remember any surnames?

    21 A. No, because we called each other by our first

    22 names. At present, I remember the surnames of some

    23 friends of mine with whom I spent ten or fifteen years,

    24 and not people with whom I spent 20 or 25 days.

    25 Q. How were the orders issued?

  18. 1 A. I told you it wasn't organised. They would

    2 just tell us, somebody would come and say, get ready,

    3 get your clothing ready, get your arms, weapons ready.

    4 And then they would order us to begin shooting. They

    5 would set a target, a bottle or a draw a circle on a

    6 piece of paper. It wasn't an organised camp. And that

    7 was my conclusion. And if somebody came, they would

    8 take him in, so that people would have their training.

    9 So there were no guard points. There was nothing like

    10 that.

    11 Q. You said in the examination-in-chief that

    12 heads were severed in that camp, is that true?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. The name, names and surnames of those who

    15 perpetrated that?

    16 A. I cannot tell you that. I can give you the

    17 nickname, one nickname.

    18 Q. No, I am satisfied with this. Do you know

    19 the names and surnames of the killed?

    20 A. No, we were told they were Serbs. They could

    21 have been Croats or Muslims, but we were told they were

    22 Serbs. But, of course, you cannot tell by their

    23 looks.

    24 Q. Mr. Landzo, in what capacity did you come to

    25 Celebici? As a soldier or as a guard?

  19. 1 A. I was told to go there as a guard in the

    2 garrison where the young soldiers would be trained,

    3 where I would be a guard for a shorter period of time.

    4 Q. So, I would be right in saying that you

    5 haven't come to Celebici as a soldier?

    6 A. We were -- I came as a soldier, but in

    7 Celebici, I was given the task of being a guard. I

    8 could have been appointed as the commander. But I came

    9 as a soldier, but there I was given the duty of guard

    10 duty.

    11 Q. You already had military experience at the

    12 time?

    13 A. Yes, I knew how to work with weapons, how to

    14 use weapons.

    15 Q. Is it true that Mr. Zdravko Mucic had no

    16 military experience?

    17 A. How should I know? Probably he served in the

    18 JNA, but on the basis of his age, I would expect that,

    19 but what really he did...

    20 Q. But it is true that he was neither a member

    21 of HVO, the units of the Ministry of Interior, the

    22 reserve units, et cetera?

    23 A. I don't know that. I never saw any insignia

    24 on his uniform.

    25 Q. That is what I wanted to ask you, did he have

  20. 1 any military rank?

    2 A. No, at least not anything visible on the

    3 uniform. That is --

    4 Q. That is how we recognise the ranks, isn't

    5 it?

    6 A. No, he didn't have that.

    7 Q. Mr. Landzo, you have mentioned that you acted

    8 according to the rules of the service and that when you

    9 came to Celebici, you were told not to think and not to

    10 ask questions, but to execute orders, is that true?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Mr. Landzo, can you tell us any rules or law

    13 by which this guard service operated?

    14 A. I want to make it clear. We did not have

    15 written orders. We had orally stated orders to which

    16 we had to abide.

    17 Q. So there were no written rules for your

    18 service?

    19 A. I have not seen them, nor has anybody ever

    20 shown them to me.

    21 Q. In Celebici, did soldiers come also from

    22 other areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

    23 A. Yes, two or three came from Modrica, that's

    24 Northern Bosnia and then refugees from Eastern

    25 Herzegovina, Nevesinje, I think they were guards later

  21. 1 on. And then I believe two or three from Gacko,

    2 Eastern Herzegovina. But they stayed only a short

    3 period of time while I was there. But later on I heard

    4 that they would stay a bit longer in the camp.

    5 Q. Mr. Landzo, in Celebici, you also had an

    6 infirmary, is that true?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. In view of your many diseases, did you ever

    9 go to them for medical check-ups? You've said you've

    10 had frequent illnesses, what do you mean by that? You

    11 said you are frequently ill, but you have many

    12 diseases.

    13 A. I only have asthma and it's a lifelong

    14 disease, which I have been having. But I asked for

    15 help in the Konjic Hospital. I had to, for example,

    16 receive an injection in the vein. The doctors in

    17 Celebici didn't have these injections, these drugs, and

    18 they couldn't help me there.

    19 Q. So I was right in saying that you were not

    20 asking for medical assistance in the Celebici

    21 infirmary?

    22 A. On a few occasions I did take sleeping

    23 pills. They gave them to me. I felt much more relaxed

    24 later on. Because during the night after a shift it's

    25 difficult to go to sleep, particularly if one had three

  22. 1 or four shifts a day.

    2 Q. Mr. Landzo, during the examination-in-chief

    3 you stated that on the basis of orders you acted where

    4 detainees were beaten, but not beaten on the head. In

    5 order to avoid any bruises on the head they were the

    6 lower part of the body?

    7 A. Yes, if the order was to kill somebody, you

    8 had to do it by beating; namely, you were not allowed

    9 to kill somebody with firearms, but you had to beat

    10 him, but without injuring the head. Don't ask me why,

    11 I just did what I was ordered to do.

    12 Q. And who issued the order, this type of

    13 beating which would be invisible?

    14 A. Either Mucic or Delic, but I am not sure.

    15 But probably it was Delic. It's more probable that it

    16 would be Delic, but I am not sure. But I am sure that

    17 it was somebody from the camp administration.

    18 Q. Mr. Landzo, do you know what was the rule of

    19 your guards that stated that guards are allowed to beat

    20 up the detainees?

    21 A. I don't know. I never served in the JNA to

    22 know the rules. I just followed the rules I was told

    23 to obey. Whether these were the rules of the guard

    24 service or anyone else, I don't know. I wasn't in a

    25 position to decide or to tell anybody about them.

  23. 1 Q. Are you saying that in Celebici the JNA rules

    2 concerning beatings and guard duty applied?

    3 A. I don't know what were the rules that were

    4 applied. Could have been those of the former JNA.

    5 Could have been somebody's personal rules, I don't

    6 know. I know that I, myself, and all the other guards

    7 would abide by the rules. We had to do it. Who

    8 adopted them? Who these rules were invented by before

    9 the war or during the war, I don't know. We were just

    10 told that we simply have no right to make up these

    11 rules, but rather, to abide by them.

    12 Q. Do you know who were the guards who, together

    13 with you, would beat up the detainees?

    14 A. In most cases, I could tell you. I can just

    15 tell you that there was somebody, Ibro or Olujic,

    16 something like that. I don't know the other guards'

    17 names, but the other guards who were from Konjic, who

    18 came together with me, I can give you their names.

    19 Q. When they would come and say that there was

    20 no such order to beat up people so that bruises could

    21 not be detected, would they be right?

    22 A. No, I would very much like them to come. I

    23 asked them to come, but they refused.

    24 Q. Mr. Landzo, you say that when you received

    25 these orders, you received them orally, if I understand

  24. 1 you well, or rather, that they were never given to you

    2 in writing; is that true?

    3 A. All orders I personally received were oral.

    4 When somebody had to be killed, the person's name would

    5 be put down on to a piece of paper, but I have never

    6 received any order in writing. I was just told in a

    7 very inhumane manner, when somebody says, "I want to

    8 see this person go with his feet forward in the morning

    9 through the gate, the camp," then obviously, this is

    10 not something normal.

    11 Q. When you were receiving these orders, was any

    12 other guard present?

    13 A. I can't remember, but it's possible. You

    14 know, I was not alone there in the camp. There were

    15 other guards, but then when I was summoned to the

    16 office, then I was alone because not everybody could

    17 just go into the office, only when you were summoned

    18 were you allowed to go into the office.

    19 Q. Can you give me the first name and family

    20 name of such guards?

    21 A. I can give you the names of some of these

    22 guards. I cannot tell you who of the guards was

    23 present when I was given a specific order. I know that

    24 there were guards moving around, either outside the

    25 headquarters building or in the kitchen. There was

  25. 1 always a guard around.

    2 Q. Tell me, you said that you would beat people,

    3 hit people, do you think that that was right and honest

    4 on your part?

    5 A. If you ask me what is my opinion now then I

    6 will give it to you. Now I know, now I understand that

    7 this was not right. It was enough for them to be

    8 detained. But, at that time, I thought and I acted in

    9 the belief that I have to follow orders because I was

    10 really not allowed to think a lot because, as I said

    11 before, they had told us, you are not here to think,

    12 but to execute orders.

    13 So I would never really go to the person who

    14 issued an order to me and say, sir, I don't know think

    15 this is right. I was not allowed to do that, I had to

    16 do what I was told. And now, I think that this was

    17 very wrong because it was enough for these people to be

    18 detained, let alone afflict on them things that have

    19 been inflicted on them.

    20 Q. In the direct, concerning Counts 11 and 12 of

    21 the charges, here we are referring to Mr. Slavko Susic

    22 that was supposed to be put into Hangar No. 9. You

    23 said that you hit him twice at the entrance gate to

    24 Hangar No. 9; is this true?

    25 A. Tunnel No. 9, I hit him twice, but other

  26. 1 guards hit him more often. I was not standing in a

    2 position from which I could really hit him hard, but

    3 there were other guards standing next to me. I did hit

    4 him twice, that's true.

    5 Q. In the direct you did not mention that you

    6 were ordered to beat him; is that true?

    7 A. If I got the order to hit him, I would have

    8 hit him more often. It was actually just pushing, it

    9 wasn't really hitting him. Because when the others

    10 started hitting him, I was told to take him to the

    11 hangar and not to hit him. So I was supposed to take

    12 him there. If I had been given the order to hit him,

    13 then it would have been a different story. I was just

    14 doing what I was told to do.

    15 Q. But that's not what I asked you, Mr. Landzo.

    16 I said the following: In the direct you said that the

    17 order was to take Mr. Susic to Hangar 9. And in the

    18 course of the direct, you also said that you hit him

    19 twice at the entrance gate to Hangar No. 9. However,

    20 when answering in the course of the direct, you never

    21 said that you were ordered to hit him. My question is

    22 just answer with a yes or no.

    23 A. No, I was not given the order, nobody asked

    24 me, had asked me whether I was given this order. I

    25 don't know how you can understand it, but these were

  27. 1 really not any serious hits that could injure him. I

    2 couldn't get directly to him because there were three,

    3 four guards standing in front of him. I couldn't just

    4 grab him and take him to the hangar. I had to push him

    5 because I couldn't grab his hand.

    6 Q. As far as Counts 24 and 26 go, concerning

    7 torture of Spasoje Miljevic, in the direct, yesterday,

    8 you said you hit him at least once because he took the

    9 food away from the rest of the detainees. In the

    10 course of the examination-in-chief, you never said that

    11 you were ordered to hit him.

    12 A. I slapped him, maybe I was not precise. It

    13 was a slap on the face and not a hit. Because how can

    14 you explain to an old man in front of you, crying, who

    15 a night before was hit in his head and the person who

    16 took away food from him standing next to him, how can

    17 you explain to him that the guy who took away the food

    18 from the older man was right. So I slapped Mr.

    19 Miljevic to show older detainee that the same law

    20 applies to old. But I didn't hit him, I just slapped

    21 him.

    22 Q. Do you think that slapping is not beating

    23 up?

    24 A. One slap on the face? I wouldn't say that.

    25 I mean, it was done simply to comply with the old man's

  28. 1 insistence on justice be done. Imagine what would have

    2 happened if I reported Miljevic, if this happened, then

    3 I guess Miljevic would never have been able to come

    4 here and testify. It all finished and ended with a

    5 single slap. And, in a way, I wanted to satisfy the

    6 old man's desire to bring peace to the hangar because

    7 it would have been, perhaps, easier to me to go to the

    8 headquarters and report Miljevic taking food away. Had

    9 I done this, Miljevic, would never be able, I guess, to

    10 come here and testify.

    11 Q. Have you reported the case?

    12 A. Not me personally. I thought that this was

    13 the end of it.

    14 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me, Mr. Landzo, what

    15 was the beginning and the end of your working day in

    16 Celebici? When you started and when you finished your

    17 duty.

    18 A. That depends on whether I was on duty or

    19 not. For example, sometimes I had to be on duty from

    20 4.00 a.m. to 8. Sometimes from 8.00 to noon.

    21 Sometimes from noon to 6. I can't really give you a

    22 specific answer.




  29. 1 Q. Yesterday in the direct, concerning counts 36

    2 and 37 of the indictment, concerning Nedjko (phoen)

    3 Draganic you said that Draganic was tied up and beaten

    4 up, he couldn't get up and the guard told you to lift

    5 him up and that he couldn't get up himself.

    6 Furthermore, you said that you hit him without having

    7 received an order to do so; is that true?

    8 A. I didn't say that he was tied up. I just

    9 know that he had a cord on his left hand. I didn't see

    10 him tied up, I just saw a cord, a rope on his left

    11 hand. I got to him, slightly kicked him with my foot

    12 to make him get up. I did it three times. Then he

    13 couldn't get up, so I sort of pushed him up, but I

    14 didn't really hit him. I just helped him to get up.

    15 Q. In the direct, you also stated that the

    16 people who would come to visit the detainees, that they

    17 could not see them at fence because that was not

    18 allowed, but that you gave the permission to

    19 Mr. Miljevic to see his mother who arrived there; is

    20 that true?

    21 A. Did I say yesterday that I personally gave

    22 him the permission?

    23 Q. Yes.

    24 A. I was on the mound on my guard post when this

    25 old woman came to the fence. She was talking to Dedic

  30. 1 Osman. And Dedic Osman asked me what are you doing? I

    2 told him that the woman was crying, that she didn't

    3 know whether he was alive or dead. And she said,

    4 imagine you were in his place, imagine your mother came

    5 here. And we decided, not me, but the two of us, we

    6 were talking to each other and we thought we would be

    7 allowed to take him for a few seconds to the entrance

    8 gate to let the mother see him.

    9 And Dedic Osman was standing along the fence

    10 to see whether anybody was coming or not, because that

    11 was not allowed. We did this in the sense of sympathy,

    12 we are not robots, our heart is not made of stone.

    13 There was this woman here who started crying.

    14 Q. But you said that you always followed the

    15 orders. You even used the phrase "It was not up to us

    16 to think but to execute orders"?

    17 A. Yes, that's true. Maybe this is what I'm

    18 guilty of.

    19 Q. So, can we say that you deviated from orders

    20 while you were staying in the Celebici camp from June

    21 to the end of July, as you say?

    22 A. Well, there were these small details for

    23 which you didn't have to receive an order. For

    24 example, if a detainee wanted to go to the latrine, I

    25 didn't have to run to headquarters and ask for an order

  31. 1 every time, to ask either the deputy, the warden or the

    2 commander. I could decide on my own.

    3 I would not let Miljevic to the fence. I

    4 just let him come as far as the entrance gate so that

    5 his mother could see him.

    6 There were these minor deviations, not only

    7 on my part, but on the part of the other guards. This

    8 is life, you can't be perfect. Everybody has

    9 sympathies, has feelings. No matter how far I tried to

    10 be a perfect soldier, I have feelings, I have a heart,

    11 and sometimes it would happen that these feelings would

    12 get the best of me.

    13 Q. Were you proud of everything you had done at

    14 Celebici at that time?

    15 A. Proud?

    16 Q. Yes.

    17 A. I thought that was my duty. I was given an

    18 order, I had to execute. Whether I was proud, no. I

    19 was not (sic) proud to wear the uniform and the rifle,

    20 because I know that when you have a rifle you can kill.

    21 I felt safer, safer as far as my family, because I

    22 thought I could defend my family, but I certainly

    23 didn't feel proud.

    24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Landzo, thank you, Your

    25 Honours, I have no more questions.

  32. 1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

    2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, it will take us some

    3 time to get organised.

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you have some

    5 time.

    6 MS. McMURREY: If I might bring a mistake in

    7 to the Court's attention. I believe the answer

    8 Mr. Landzo said when he was asked if he was proud to

    9 wear a uniform, he said he was proud to wear the

    10 uniform, and in the transcript it said he was not

    11 proud. So I hope that that can be corrected.

    12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you.

    13 MR. MORAN: May it please the Court, I think

    14 we're organised.

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.

    16 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much.

    17 Q. Good morning Mr. Landzo.

    18 A. Good morning.

    19 Q. You've heard me talking to witnesses a whole

    20 lot of times, so you know I'm going to ask you to

    21 listen to the question, answer the question out loud

    22 and answer the question I ask. Can we do that?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. In fact, you've heard all the testimony here,

    25 haven't you? Essentially every word of it, you may

  33. 1 have missed a couple of days because, for one reason or

    2 another, but you heard basically every word of

    3 testimony in this trial; haven't you?

    4 A. Yes, I was present and I did hear. But

    5 sometimes I was concentrated and listened to it in a

    6 concentrated fashion, but occasionally I wasn't, and I

    7 didn't follow.

    8 MR. MORAN: Are the transcripts on your

    9 computer, that little laptop you bring here?

    10 A. Yes. Yes, but I cannot use it in the same

    11 fashion as you do.

    12 Q. But you have access to all of the

    13 transcripts. That's the question I've asked.

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. You don't like me very much, do you?

    16 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I'm going to

    17 object.

    18 JUDGE JAN: This is not relevant.

    19 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think I can make

    20 it relevant.

    21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't make your

    22 questioning personal.

    23 MR. MORAN: Okay.

    24 Q. A couple of weeks ago when we were upstairs

    25 and your witness, the psychiatric witnesses were

  34. 1 testifying, you made a threat to me, didn't you,

    2 through your lawyer, about my cross-examination?

    3 Now was that a threat of getting on the

    4 witness stand to trash my client, or was that a threat

    5 of physical violence?

    6 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I'm going to

    7 object. If he is saying there was a threat made, I

    8 would like to know what he is alleging because I'm not

    9 aware of any threat that was made through his lawyer to

    10 Mr. Moran.

    11 MR. MORAN: It was carried to me while we

    12 standing in the little alcove near that elevators where

    13 we went up and down at lunch one day.

    14 MS. McMURREY: I'm going to object, because I

    15 don't know what he's talking about.

    16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Moran, kindly go to

    17 the real issue.

    18 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, fine.

    19 Q. You were here when Dr. Gripon testified

    20 yesterday, weren't you, Mr. Landzo?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And you heard his testimony. It was probably

    23 pretty hard for you to listen to, wasn't it?

    24 A. Yes, I did hear him, but it wasn't hard. He

    25 does, did his job, you're doing your job, and I'm also

  35. 1 here to say what I believe should be said.

    2 Q. And you heard Dr. Gripon testify that people

    3 with antisocial personality disorder, like you, will --

    4 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I'm going to

    5 object to him harassing the witness. When he says

    6 "like you", if he has a question about antisocial, can

    7 he phrase it not intimidating the witness like he's

    8 trying to do?

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly put your

    10 questions.

    11 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

    12 Q. As I said, you heard Dr. Gripon testify, one,

    13 that you have antisocial personality disorder, and two,

    14 that people with antisocial personality disorder will

    15 lie to accomplish their goals. You heard that; didn't

    16 you?

    17 JUDGE JAN: Often, he said.

    18 MR. MORAN: That's true, Your Honour.

    19 JUDGE JAN: Ask the question with that

    20 qualification.

    21 Q. That they will often lie to achieve their

    22 goals. You heard that didn't you?

    23 A. Yes, I did hear, but let me answer to that.

    24 I have come here to tell the truth, but if this truth

    25 does not meet the needs of your client or anybody else,

  36. 1 that doesn't mean that I lie.

    2 Q. Okay, that's what we're here for, is the

    3 truth. Let's talk about some truth.

    4 Yesterday on your direct you testified about

    5 an incident where you had an apartment, and you had

    6 gotten some vacant apartment you moved into and changed

    7 the locks, and these owners apparently were back in

    8 there and you went in and fired a, fired into the

    9 ceiling; do you remember that testimony?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Is that the same incident that you told Dr.

    12 Lagazzi about, the first time you talked to him, when

    13 you said you threw a hand grenade into an apartment

    14 where there were some women? Or was that a different

    15 episode?

    16 A. I never, and to anybody did I ever state that

    17 I threw a hand grenade, because nobody would survive,

    18 they would be dead. I said to him and others that I

    19 shot three or four times from the rifle, three or four

    20 times in the ceiling.

    21 If I threw a hand grenade I wouldn't be alive

    22 today, and neither would anybody else be. I know what

    23 happened, and I know what I said.

    24 Q. So, if Dr. Lagazzi in his report dated 15

    25 November, 1996, which is in evidence as D61/4 said,

  37. 1 quote, "He also remembered that he was promised a house

    2 to move into, but when he arrived at the door drunk he

    3 found four girls who had found shelter inside. He was

    4 angry, so he threw a hand grenade in the entrance and

    5 fired a burst of fire from the machine gun, lightly

    6 injuring the girls who escaped into an another part of

    7 the apartment". Dr. Lagazzi, if he said you said that,

    8 he would be wrong; wouldn't he?

    9 A. Well, you would have to ask the translator,

    10 and not Dr. Lagazzi or me. I know what I said and I

    11 know Dr. Lagazzi will tell you what he understood. So

    12 probably you would have to ask the person who was

    13 translating on that occasion. Because I'm sure that he

    14 wrote in the report what was being translated, and I

    15 know what I've said on the occasion, so you have to ask

    16 the person who was translating at the time.

    17 I cannot say whether Dr. Lagazzi is right or

    18 wrong. I know what I stated, and I stand firm on that.

    19 Q. So, either Dr. Lagazzi or --?

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think he answered

    21 that. Move on.

    22 Q. Is that the same incident, the incident you

    23 discussed yesterday, is that the same incident where

    24 there was a young man in a flat, in a flat occupied by

    25 a young man? That's the one you were talking about;

  38. 1 right?

    2 A. Yes, yes.

    3 Q. You testified yesterday that there were two

    4 incidents of violence after you left Celebici, and the

    5 apartment incident was one of them. And you said there

    6 was another one with your brother. We had a break,

    7 coffee break, and nobody ever followed it up, and I'm

    8 going to ask you this: Is that incident with your

    9 brother, is that the one that, where you went into the

    10 bar and had the drinks and when the bill came, rather

    11 than pay the bill you fired up into the ceiling? Is it

    12 that the other incident of violence you were talking

    13 about?

    14 A. I never said that I was firing in the ceiling

    15 because the bill arrived. It's true that there was

    16 this incident with my brother, but that I'd be shooting

    17 in a restaurant because of the bill? I don't remember

    18 of saying that, ever.

    19 Q. Why were you shooting in the restaurant,

    20 then, if it wasn't over the bill? Just to do it?

    21 A. Can you, could you maybe read it to me out?

    22 Maybe I said it, but I cannot remember. Could you read

    23 it out to me?

    24 Q. Do you remember an incident, do you remember

    25 telling Dr. Gripon, who I think is still sitting out

  39. 1 there, about an incident when you went into a bar with

    2 some other soldiers after you left Celebici, and

    3 drinking, and then when you left, firing into the

    4 ceiling? Do you remember telling Dr. Gripon about

    5 that?

    6 A. I cannot remember. Maybe I said it, but if

    7 you remind me, if you read it out to me. I had a

    8 number of meetings with Dr. Gripon, we talked on many

    9 subjects. We spoke about these incidents.

    10 Q. Did the incident occur, Mr. Landzo?

    11 A. Possibly. I cannot remember. I know that

    12 there was that incident in the apartment and with my

    13 brother, the incident with my brother, but about this

    14 one, I do not remember. If you can tell me.

    15 Q. What was the incident with your brother? I

    16 was asking if that was the incident with your brother.

    17 A. No, no, no it's not that.

    18 Q. What was the incident with your brother,

    19 then, the incident of violence? Tell the Judges what

    20 it was.

    21 A. I found this apartment for myself, and I

    22 accepted my brother and some three or four friends from

    23 the military police to live with me. However, they

    24 sold all of the furniture from the building. Later on

    25 the police came and they gave me a decision that I

  40. 1 should move out of that apartment.

    2 Then I moved back to my father's place, and I

    3 came home from my duty as, in military policeman, I

    4 came very tired. And let me say that while I was still

    5 living in that apartment, my brother would always bring

    6 in the evening friends, there was a lot of music and

    7 they were having fun, I never could rest.

    8 And when I returned back home to my father's

    9 place, once I came home I wanted to rest and go to

    10 sleep. This brother came home with his friends, I

    11 asked him then to not come at the time, that he should

    12 come a bit later, but he pushed me. And in my reaction

    13 it wasn't with intention, it was a matter of seconds, I

    14 shot a few shots in the room.

    15 Q. So, this is a second incident in an

    16 apartment?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Who ordered you to fire those shots the

    19 second time?

    20 A. Nobody.

    21 Q. Who ordered you to fire the shots the first

    22 time?

    23 A. Nobody. I felt threatened. I felt that my

    24 life was threatened. That is the period when I was

    25 working in the military police, and the first case,

  41. 1 when I came to the apartment, there were three young

    2 men in uniform with weapons. And I felt threatened,

    3 and these were warning shots. I didn't want to injure

    4 them. And obviously that is why I also shot in the

    5 ceiling, in order not to injure them.

    6 Q. Now, those were the only two incidents of

    7 violence after you left Celebici; is that right?

    8 A. After leaving Celebici?

    9 Q. Yes.

    10 A. Yes, as far as I can remember at this point.

    11 Q. Well, how about that incident you talked to

    12 Dr. Lagazzi about, where you and some of your

    13 co-fighters got drunk and hung a woman by her heels

    14 from the top of a tall building because she refused to

    15 go with you? Would you consider that to be an act of

    16 violence?

    17 A. I held her? I know that that happened. I

    18 was present at that occasion, but I couldn't hold her.

    19 I was present in that group, but I wasn't holding her

    20 by the feet.

    21 Q. We may have had a translation problem and I

    22 don't speak enough Bosnian to know. But the word you,

    23 Y-O-U in English can be singular and plural, and if it

    24 was translated singular it was meant to be plural, it

    25 was meant to be you as the group of fighters. So, I

  42. 1 didn't say you personally held her. You being you and

    2 your co-fighters. That was not -- ?

    3 JUDGE JAN: Why do you use the word

    4 co-fighters? Say companions.

    5 MR. MORAN: I'm using the word co-fighters

    6 because that's the word Dr. Lagazzi used in his report

    7 on page 17 of exhibit D61/4.

    8 Q. You wouldn't consider that to be an incident

    9 of violence, then?

    10 A. Yes, it was, but I didn't take part in it.

    11 As you, in order to understand the situation, I must

    12 explain to you what people, type of people were

    13 involved, and then what state they were in, in order to

    14 make you understand the entire situation. It's

    15 difficult for someone who comes from a normal situation

    16 to understand the situation we had in our case.

    17 Q. Okay.

    18 A. Because at the time a pebble on the road, was

    19 more valuable than human life.

    20 Q. Who was it that ordered you in that incident,

    21 with the girl hanging by her feet?

    22 JUDGE JAN: He said he did not do it himself,

    23 so the question of somebody ordering him does not

    24 arise.

    25 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour.

  43. 1 Q. How about an incident where some girl looked

    2 you up and promised that if you killed her father they,

    3 actually I think the phrase Dr. Lagazzi used is

    4 "promised herself and her sister to him," him being

    5 you, if he, you, killed their father, who was violent

    6 and abusive, and that when you found him in a drunken

    7 state, you only injured him. Would you consider that

    8 to be an act of violence?

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Did he remember that

    10 incident you're asking about?

    11 Q. Do you remember that incident? Let's start

    12 off with that.

    13 A. Yes, I know that these two girls and their

    14 mother asked me to do that. However, when the shooting

    15 did take place there were ten who shot him. So, it's a

    16 question who shot him. That was from the railroad

    17 station, the Serbs were leaving. And from the

    18 battalion command we were told to shoot warning shots

    19 to all people who were moving.

    20 Q. So, when Dr. Lagazzi says in his report, the

    21 last part of the sentence being, "and so he found him

    22 in a drunken state but only injured him," Dr. Lagazzi,

    23 that must have been a mistranslation of some kind?

    24 Another mistranslation? Is that right?

    25 A. I don't know whether it's a mistake, I know

  44. 1 what I've said. I know when the man was injured. I

    2 later on visited him in the hospital. And it wasn't

    3 only I who was shooting, there were, we were all

    4 shooting.

    5 Nobody was allowed to move along that road,

    6 be it Serbs, Muslims or Bosnians, and nobody was

    7 allowed because many had been killed along that road.

    8 It's true there were drunken people on the front-line at

    9 that time.

    10 Q. So that incident was just in the line of

    11 duty.

    12 A. You would have to ask them what I said. I

    13 didn't want to do it, because if I wanted to do it, I

    14 would do it in the city and not there. I've never had

    15 any intention to shoot him. We only had to carry out

    16 the order of stopping people from moving along that

    17 road. That was the situation.

    18 Many people were injured, there was shooting

    19 going on, also from the side of the HVO and so on.

    20 Q. So that incident, Mr. Landzo, was in the line

    21 of duty as a soldier, right? Is that what you're

    22 saying?

    23 A. Yes, yes, I was on the front-line at that

    24 time.

    25 Q. Do you remember an incident, sir, where you

  45. 1 came across several of your co-fighters that had found

    2 a Serb who had gotten some cigarettes as a gift from a

    3 butcher and they were arguing among themselves over who

    4 was going to get the cigarettes? Do you remember that

    5 incident?

    6 A. Where did that happen?

    7 Q. I can tell you what -- ?

    8 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I object, he is

    9 misleading the witness. The incident that he's

    10 referring to occurred in Celebici, and he is talking

    11 post Celebici violence, so I would like them to give

    12 him a time frame, for the witness.

    13 MR. MORAN: Let me read you what Dr. Lagazzi

    14 says. And this is on page 18 of exhibit D61/4. I'll

    15 read it out, and if would you like I will have it

    16 brought over to you.

    17 Dr. Lagazzi says, quote, "As an example, he

    18 described an episode in which he was involved, some of

    19 his co-fighters had found a Serb who had received

    20 several packets of cigarettes as a gift from a rich

    21 butcher, and they argued among themselves, beating him

    22 in the meantime, in order to establish who should get

    23 those cigarettes. Esad tried to calm down the

    24 colleagues by dividing the cigarettes among them and

    25 then he walked away. He had later gone back on his own

  46. 1 and started beating the man for no reason, though

    2 neither seriously injuring nor killing him."

    3 Okay, now start off, was that incident in

    4 Celebici or was it post Celebici, or do you not recall

    5 the incident?

    6 A. I would be distributing cigarettes to my

    7 colleagues? I never did it, because I never smoked,

    8 and I can't recall having done that.

    9 Q. Okay, so, either you forgot, or there is some

    10 other problem with Dr. Lagazzi's report, and you just

    11 don't recall the incident?

    12 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I object to him

    13 putting words in his mouth. If he lets him respond he

    14 will explain what the circumstances were.

    15 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, this is

    16 cross-examination and I believe I'm allowed to ask

    17 leading questions.

    18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

    19 rise for now.

    20 JUDGE JAN: What she is saying is misleading,

    21 not leading.

    22 MS. McMURREY: Thank you, Judge Jan.

    23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will return at noon.

    24 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

    25 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

  47. 1 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

    2 are still under oath.

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.

    4 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

    5 Q. Mr. Landzo, both over the break we just had

    6 and the breaks yesterday, did you discuss your

    7 testimony with anybody?

    8 A. I talked to my Defence lawyer.

    9 Q. The question was, did you discuss your

    10 testimony with anybody? I didn't ask if you were --

    11 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, is he asking for

    12 a violation of attorney/client privileged information?

    13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, why don't you let

    14 him ask his questions. He merely asked a simple

    15 question. If he discussed it with anybody, he would

    16 say so.

    17 MS. McMURREY: If he discussed it with his

    18 lawyer, that still is part of privileged information

    19 and confidential.

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, if he said so. That

    21 would be understood. Would you please leave him to

    22 conduct his case.

    23 MR. MORAN:

    24 Q. Mr. Landzo, the question was, did you discuss

    25 your testimony with anybody? That's a yes or no.

  48. 1 A. Yes, with my lawyer.

    2 Q. That's fine. Thank you very much. You've

    3 now answered the question. Now, let's go on to

    4 something else.

    5 Mr. Landzo, again, just reminding you of Dr.

    6 Gripon's testimony about goals and things. What's your

    7 goal here in testifying?

    8 A. To feel once again like a human being. To

    9 tell you the truth, I came here to tell the truth

    10 because I want to be a human being. And if you are

    11 aiming at my release from the prison, this is not what

    12 I am after. I want to be punished for what I am guilty

    13 of. I don't want to be punished for what I am not

    14 guilty for. I am not afraid of it.

    15 Q. In fact, you expect to be sent to a prison in

    16 either in Western Europe or in the United States,

    17 preferably the United States; isn't that right?

    18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to

    19 object to this line of questioning. It's totally to

    20 the guilt and innocence stage of this trial.

    21 Irrelevant.

    22 MR. MORAN: I think it's goes to the mind set

    23 of this defendant.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You ask him your

    25 question.

  49. 1 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour.

    2 Q. In fact, you want to serve any sentence you

    3 have in Western Europe or the United States, preferably

    4 the United States; isn't that right?

    5 A. I am examining this possibility. If I have

    6 to be sentenced to prison, I would like to use this

    7 time for education. I would like it to be a country

    8 that will allow me to use my prison sentence to spend

    9 it to learn something for tomorrow so that when I am

    10 released to be able to live in the future. Whether

    11 this is Western Europe or the United States of America,

    12 that's of the least importance. I am just heading for

    13 a country that will allow me to do that if that's

    14 feasible. I want the best future possible. I don't

    15 want to be what I used to be, somebody without anything

    16 and nobody.

    17 Q. After your sentence is up, whenever that

    18 would be, you expect to continue to reside in the

    19 United States; right?

    20 A. That's what I never said. I was thinking

    21 about this desire to live there because it's a big

    22 country. It has enormous opportunities. People who

    23 don't know me. I could start my life from afresh. The

    24 United States of America, or Canada, or those countries

    25 that are far away from Europe and, specifically, far

  50. 1 away from Bosnia. Because I certainly don't want to go

    2 back to the old. If that is a sin, then I am a sinner.

    3 Q. You came up on this idea of moving to the

    4 United States and becoming a permanent resident all on

    5 your own?

    6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He didn't say that.

    7 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, let me put a

    8 question mark at the end of that.

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you're putting a

    10 question, that's a different thing, but he did not say

    11 that.

    12 MR. MORAN:

    13 Q. And did you come up with this idea of moving

    14 to the United States all on your own?

    15 JUDGE JAN: He is not specifying the United

    16 States.

    17 MR. MORAN:

    18 Q. Or Canada, all on your own?

    19 A. I talked to my lawyer about the

    20 possibilities, what the possibilities are to spend my

    21 sentence in the United States of America, in Canada, in

    22 Sweden. So I was thinking along these lines. I would

    23 opt for the United States of America because there is

    24 an enormous opportunity for a better life there, but

    25 that's not to mean that I want to go there.

  51. 1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Probably be good in a

    2 new society. I think you should move on.

    3 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour.

    4 Q. Mr. Landzo, very first thing, off the bat

    5 this morning, you were talking about Mr. Brackovic.

    6 This is just my notes and I may not be exactly correct,

    7 okay. And, if I am not, just stop me and correct me.

    8 But my notes said that; you didn't get the best

    9 Defence, it wasn't not the worse Defence and he had not

    10 satisfied your request. Now, you never said what the

    11 request was. Was the request that he pay you money?

    12 Is that the request you were talking about?

    13 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am still going

    14 to object, this is irrelevant.

    15 MR. MORAN: Well, Your Honour, I think given

    16 some of his statements yesterday, and that statement

    17 this morning, at least to that extent, I think he may

    18 have waived the attorney/client privilege. In fact, I

    19 recall, and I can find it if you give me a minute. I

    20 can recall standing up yesterday when he made some

    21 charges against Mr. Brackovic and suggesting that he

    22 may have been on some pretty thin ice as it applies to

    23 the privilege and Mr. Brackovic.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: His evidence was fairly

    25 clear. This relationship with Brackovic and why he

  52. 1 fired him. It was very clear. But it included a

    2 portion of his enemies to his family. He said that.

    3 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. And the

    4 question that I had was that the request that Mr.

    5 Brackovic did not comply with that he was discussing

    6 this morning. Did he mention this morning. Right out,

    7 first thing. And --

    8 THE WITNESS: There were two reasons, not

    9 just one. If you will recall my testimony of

    10 yesterday, I mentioned two reasons, not just one.

    11 MR. MORAN:

    12 Q. Yes. One of the reasons, as I recall from

    13 your testimony yesterday, you noticed that Mr.

    14 Brackovic was having problems with Ms. McMurrey.

    15 That's on page 15110 of the transcript, lines 18

    16 through 23. And the second thing you said was, that he

    17 wouldn't pay you money because he said it was

    18 unethical. Now, this morning you said; he was not the

    19 best Defence and not the worse Defence and he had not

    20 satisfied my request. And what I am asking is, is the

    21 request that he did not satisfy, that he refused to pay

    22 you money? That's a pretty simple question.

    23 A. That is not the only reason. I will give you

    24 the reasons from the very beginning. I asked him to

    25 let me tell the truth and he said, no, that's not in

  53. 1 the interest of the country for truth to be told here

    2 if you want me to tell you the truth. I will not keep

    3 quiet because I don't know --

    4 MS. McMURREY: Right now I believe that Mr.

    5 Moran is maybe going to approach the breaching of the

    6 confidentiality with Mr. Brackovic and Mr. Landzo. I

    7 don't believe that the Court has ruled yet that that

    8 privilege has been --

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that not part of his

    10 evidence yesterday?

    11 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, the exact quote and

    12 it's page 15110, lines --

    13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You were in court

    14 yesterday when this evidence was given. I am sure you

    15 knew about it. You knew when he gave the evidence.

    16 You approved of it.

    17 MR. MORAN: And, Your Honour, just for the

    18 record on pages 15116 and 15117, starting at line 17,

    19 the record reflects that I stood up and said, "Excuse

    20 me, Your Honours, I think we're going, we may take the

    21 position at some future date that this defendant is in

    22 the process of waiving his attorney/client privilege

    23 with Mr. Brackovic. And we may be calling Mr.

    24 Brackovic as a witness. I think at this point the

    25 Court might want to, at least inform the witness, that

  54. 1 he is on thin ice as to the attorney/client privilege."

    2 And the record reflects that the Presiding Judge, Judge

    3 Karibi-Whyte said, "That's correct. I think Mr.

    4 Brackovic is not represented here and accusations

    5 having been made against him, his family, his counsel

    6 so he needs to protect his interests in this regard."

    7 It's not something, Your Honour, that anybody should be

    8 surprised about today.

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think counsel was here

    10 when the allegation was made and if counsel did not

    11 even want allegation to be made, she should have

    12 rejected it from the beginning because it wasn't fair

    13 on Mr. Brackovic and I expect he should be protected.

    14 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, and I am not

    15 sure, the attorney/client privilege varies from

    16 jurisdiction to jurisdiction. But in the jurisdictions

    17 that I am familiar with, the privilege is gone to the

    18 extent that a client accuses his lawyer of misconduct.

    19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In fact, you don't talk

    20 about privilege when the witness himself volunteers

    21 these statements.

    22 MR. MORAN: That's correct, Your Honour. The

    23 privilege, of course, belonging to Mr. Landzo, not to

    24 any of his lawyers.


  55. 1 MR. MORAN:

    2 Q. Let's try it one more time, Mr. Landzo. The

    3 question was: This morning you said he has not

    4 satisfied my request. And the question I put to you

    5 was: Was that request that he turned down a refusal to

    6 pay you money? That requires a yes or no.

    7 JUDGE JAN: He said one of the

    8 considerations.

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He said there is not

    10 only that, there are others. He said at least. He was

    11 trying to name the things he had against his counsel.

    12 And he indicated, he started indicating it when,

    13 perhaps the examination came. So he might be in a

    14 position to state what are the other things.

    15 MR. MORAN: Okay, what are the other things?

    16 JUDGE JAN: He said that.

    17 MR. MORAN:

    18 Q. Those are the two requests?

    19 A. If I may, let me give you an explanation.

    20 Maybe something is not quite clear here. Yes, as far

    21 as financial help is concerned, I was not strongly on

    22 the stand to fire him because of that. Had Mr. Delic

    23 not given me this advice, telling me that his lawyer

    24 was helping his family at that time, my father was

    25 working for a salary of around 80 Deutschmarks per

  56. 1 month. So what I tried to do is get some financial

    2 assistance from my lawyer. He would, however, come to

    3 me saying "I spent last night in the casino. I lost

    4 some money," and instead of being willing to help me,

    5 he would do that. So I was not firm on firing him

    6 until another person, almost on a daily basis while

    7 walking with him, advised me what to do.

    8 Q. You talked about that financial assistance,

    9 okay, you brought it up, let's talk about it. That

    10 financial assistance was financial assistance, it was

    11 provided on behalf of the SDA party, is that correct?

    12 A. Yes, as far as I know.

    13 Q. And, in fact, that financial assistance was

    14 paid to your family also in amount of 200 Deutschmarks

    15 a month by the SDA to help your family until what?

    16 January of this year?

    17 A. But not regularly. You should ask why they

    18 were paying it. They weren't paying it because they

    19 like me.

    20 Q. The SDA party ask you to do anything wrong?

    21 Did you get a letter from Alija Izetbegovic saying do

    22 this or do that?

    23 A. Not directly, but through my lawyer. And

    24 this is why I decided to have no single lawyer from the

    25 territory of the former Yugoslavia, because here there

  57. 1 are lots of things involved that I don't want to talk

    2 about because I don't have evidence to corroborate a

    3 statement. This is something else that I really don't

    4 want to go into.

    5 Q. Okay, fine.

    6 A. Not all of them, but certain lawyers.

    7 Q. And we just wanted to -- okay, you don't have

    8 to go into it if you don't want to, I'll be gracious.

    9 Let's talk about some of your testimony from yesterday,

    10 okay. First thing I would like to talk about is the

    11 incident where you cut your hand. Remember that?

    12 Remember testifying about that?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And you remember the incident, of course,

    15 because you testified about it?

    16 A. Yes, I remember it, maybe not all the

    17 details, but I do remember it.

    18 Q. And you grabbed that knife in anger because

    19 you blamed your father because you couldn't go to art

    20 school, right?

    21 A. No, that's not true. At that moment, there

    22 was no mention made about the art school when this

    23 misunderstanding took place.

    24 Q. Okay. When you grabbed it, you were angry,

    25 is that fair?

  58. 1 A. Like any teenager in adolescence, everything

    2 bothers you unless it is just the way you think it

    3 should be. That's normal for all persons. Well, it's

    4 not normal to react in this way, but that was a time of

    5 my personality development, so even for trivial things,

    6 I would be really pissed off. Later on, I recognised

    7 that there was no genuine reason for that.

    8 Q. Sir, do you recall testifying yesterday when

    9 you were asked -- excuse me, not yesterday, the day

    10 before yesterday -- about that incident? You said, "I

    11 don't know why I became quarrelling with my father, but

    12 that was in 1991, when I couldn't attend the art

    13 school. And after this impossibility of attending this

    14 school, I was to -- I blame everything, my father for

    15 everything. And then we quarrelled, the two of us.

    16 And simply, I became nervous and I grabbed something I

    17 found in a cupboard, a knife. I really don't know why

    18 I grabbed the knife. And I hit against this cupboard.

    19 And on that occasion, I slipped and cut four fingers."

    20 Do you remember testifying to that? I would be happy

    21 to show you the transcript.

    22 A. There are mistakes in the transcript. I

    23 didn't hit it once, more times. I did it once only. I

    24 blamed his father without good reason. But, at that

    25 time, I blamed everyone for not being able to go to art

  59. 1 school. At that time, when something was wrong at

    2 school, when I couldn't get something, I would always

    3 blame my father. And whenever we would start a

    4 discussion, I would reproach him for not allowing me

    5 these things to do. So the topic of the

    6 misunderstanding at that time was not the art school.

    7 But I blamed my father for everything because I thought

    8 that he should have enabled me to do these things.

    9 Q. So when you centred that testimony on the art

    10 school, that was just you were centring on the art

    11 school and there were a lot of reasons you were mad at

    12 your father. Is that what you're saying, sir?

    13 A. Well, you seem to have misunderstood me. For

    14 all misunderstandings, since the time I left the art

    15 school, when my father couldn't finance my art school,

    16 everything that happened, together with the school, my

    17 future, I would blame my father. Now I know I had no

    18 reason, but at that time, I blamed him for not enabling

    19 me to finish what I wanted to finish. There didn't

    20 have to be tied only to the school, to the Konjic

    21 school. But this is how I blamed him.

    22 Q. Okay, fine. By the way, when was that

    23 incident when you cut your hand, roughly, if you know

    24 the month and the year. It was 1991, we know that.

    25 What month was it?

  60. 1 A. I think it was February. If I -- well, as

    2 far as I can recall it.

    3 Q. And you had some surgery after that, right?

    4 A. On the second day after the injury.

    5 Q. Was your hand in a cast at all? Did Dr.

    6 Buturovic put your hand in a cast?

    7 A. Yes, upon the surgery, I think I had the cast

    8 on for about one month.

    9 Q. And, after the cast came off, he did some

    10 threading, put some threads on your hand or something

    11 so you could work with it? Do you remember testifying

    12 about that? Through the 4th and 5th finger, he pulled

    13 a thread through it, when was that?

    14 A. He put me, the thread immediately upon

    15 surgery. It was here, through the skin he would insert

    16 the cord, the thread, and put it on to a rubber so it

    17 was elastic so I could do exercises because there was

    18 certain clearance between the hand itself and the cast,

    19 so as to be able to move the fingers.

    20 Q. And all of that came off, when? In March

    21 1991?

    22 A. Well, I know that I had it for about a month,

    23 the cast, that I am sure of. And then the cast was

    24 removed and I graduated from the school. But, of

    25 course, I was out of school, I couldn't write. I

  61. 1 couldn't attend classes. I couldn't do practical

    2 work. So, at the end of the year, I had to sit for the

    3 exams.

    4 Q. Okay. Now, did the threads and everything

    5 come off when the cast came off, is that correct?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. And then you, because you couldn't go to

    8 school, you had to sit for all your exams at the end of

    9 secondary school, at the end of the year, end of the

    10 school year; right? Did I understand that right?

    11 A. No, no. Before the school was out, I had

    12 extra classes and I graduated on time.

    13 Q. When do you have graduation from secondary

    14 school in Konjic? I know in America we do it -- I can

    15 tell you exactly we did it in May 30th this year where

    16 I come from because I was there for my daughter's.

    17 When was yours? What day of the month, if you recall?

    18 A. I can't recall it.

    19 Q. Do you recall whether it was in April, May,

    20 June, July?

    21 A. No. If you showed me a document, I would be

    22 able to confirm it, but otherwise I can't recall it.

    23 Q. Okay.

    24 A. I know that it was 1991, but the month I

    25 really don't know.

  62. 1 Q. That's -- okay. So you just have no idea?

    2 A. I don't know.

    3 Q. Let's talk about something else and this may

    4 be a translation error, and, if it is, I think we need

    5 to point it out to everybody. The day before

    6 yesterday, you were talking about joining the TO,

    7 okay? And --

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And on page 15024 of the transcripts at lines

    10 24 and 25 and then line 1 on the next page, you -- the

    11 transcript says, "And Miro told me to sign up to the

    12 TO, Territorial Defence, which had its headquarters in

    13 the Ministry of the Interior." And then a couple of

    14 pages later, on page 15026, lines 9 through 13, you

    15 talk about Miro insisting that you stay with him, you

    16 don't join the army. And he said you were too young,

    17 it wasn't the war for you. The war is for nobody, for

    18 no wise person. Which is right?

    19 A. Let me explain. May I explain it?

    20 Q. Well, you can start off with telling us which

    21 is correct.

    22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Counsel is not blaming

    23 you for what has been said, whether you know the two

    24 versions which are not consistent, which is a correct

    25 version.

  63. 1 MR. MORAN: Is it a mistranslation the

    2 first --

    3 THE WITNESS: They're both true. But, I

    4 forgot to explain the first version. Can I explain it

    5 now? Both of them are true. If I am allowed to

    6 explain it, then it will be clear to you.

    7 MR. MORAN: Why don't you explain version one

    8 first and then go on to version two.

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The two have to be

    10 explained together. Let him do it.

    11 THE WITNESS: At the beginning, that is, I

    12 can't recall exactly what was the time. Cipeta and

    13 myself insisted from Miro on a daily basis, to send us

    14 to the Territorial Defence. He refused to comply. I

    15 think it was ten times a day that I asked him. He had

    16 a machine gun of his own, which he got from the

    17 Ministry of the Interior. He had it in his room, but

    18 we couldn't carry it around because we were not members

    19 of the Territorial Defence. We insisted on it.

    20 He had a friend of his with the Territorial

    21 Defence, who was head of a TD unit and he told me, go

    22 there and apply there. I went there, I found the

    23 person in question. This person told me, what are you

    24 guys going to do here? And he sent me back. When I

    25 came back home, Miro was laughing and he asked me, did

  64. 1 they take you in? My conclusion was that he just

    2 wanted to help us, perhaps, he called them by phone and

    3 told them not to take us in. He just wanted to get rid

    4 of us because we really bothered him, ten, fifteen

    5 times a day.





















  65. 1 Q. Okay, so Miro was only joking he when he told

    2 you to join the TO the first time?

    3 A. Not joking, he probably wanted to satisfy our

    4 desire, but it turned out the way it did.

    5 Q. Okay. And Miro forgot about that when he

    6 testified?

    7 A. If I remember, nobody asked him about it. If

    8 you had asked him, I'm sure he would have told you.

    9 Q. I'm sure he would have, too, sir.

    10 While we're thinking about Miro, Miro said

    11 that you were unloading 20-ton trucks. You recall that

    12 testimony, and lifting televisions and things. And

    13 your testimony, I'm looking for it now, but as I

    14 recall, if you want me to look for it, I'll find it,

    15 but as I recall what you said was, you mainly just

    16 shoved boxes and things, and if there were smaller

    17 trucks, and if you needed help someone would be hired,

    18 folks would be hired to do that; right? Do you

    19 remember saying something along those lines?

    20 A. Yes, but I did the unloading, and of course

    21 there were a number of people there. The truck would

    22 come in front of the shop, one or two people would be

    23 on the truck, and that they would push the goods closer

    24 to the edge of the truck, the others would take, unload

    25 and take the goods to the warehouse, and the third

  66. 1 group would then be putting it in the warehouse.

    2 And always when we were unloading bigger

    3 trucks, we would invite people whom we knew and who

    4 would be paid. We couldn't do it alone. Only in cases

    5 of smaller trucks, Cipeta and I would do it alone.

    6 Q. And Miro forgot about hiring all those people

    7 when he testified about you unloading 20-ton trucks.

    8 Or nobody ever asked him; right?

    9 A. You should have asked him. I don't remember,

    10 recall anybody asking him. You, I remember what it

    11 was, but you can ask him. He was the one who paid

    12 these people.

    13 For example, Bubalo Esad, he helped me a

    14 number of times in unloading the truck. And Miro

    15 always paid these people who were helping us for the

    16 short time of unloading. He paid them. But you can

    17 check it out with Miro, if you wish.

    18 Q. And it must have been tough unloading those

    19 trucks with your hand. Was it hard to unload things

    20 like the television sets that Miro talked about?

    21 A. I was unloading everything that I was asked.

    22 I was on the truck always, and I then would unload half

    23 a metre, but I never carried the goods to the

    24 warehouse. But I helped in the warehouse in order to

    25 know where everything was when Miro would ask us where

  67. 1 the goods were.

    2 Q. So all you would do is pick it up off the

    3 back of the truck and set it on the ground, or the

    4 loading dock?

    5 A. Well, you know, the small trucks were about a

    6 metre wide. I would step, let's say, make a metre or

    7 two step there and move the goods. That is why I was

    8 on the truck, because I couldn't carry these goods for

    9 a longer period of time, and longer routes.

    10 Q. And it was hard, I bet it was hard, too, both

    11 with your asthma and your hand when you carried that

    12 lumber to Miro's father's house. That was tough,

    13 wasn't it?

    14 A. These lumber, the lumber, that was really

    15 waste, these waste, these were small pieces, I don't

    16 know how to explain it to you. This was waste lumber.

    17 After the cutting and the mill, I could do that, it was

    18 easy. It's not that you had big chunks of wood.

    19 Miro's father used that for a furnace, for the boiler

    20 for his central heating.

    21 Q. Thinking about your health, as I recall, one

    22 of the Dutch physicians, the pulmonary physician,

    23 testified that you have an allergy to dust; is that

    24 right? Let me rephrase, you're allergic to dust;

    25 right?

  68. 1 A. Yes, dust, feathers and so on.

    2 Q. And dust causes you to have an asthmatic

    3 reaction, have an asthma attack?

    4 A. Yes, problems, breathing problems, I have

    5 difficulty in breathing. It's not an attack where I

    6 can't move. I have problems, breathing problems, but

    7 in a day or two, if you don't prevent that, then a more

    8 serious stage occurs, sets on.

    9 Q. Fine, let me go on to another subject, sir.

    10 You testified, as I recall, that when you were first

    11 assigned to the Celebici camp there was some kind of a

    12 guard position in, I think you called it, I don't want

    13 to say -- I call it a fox hole, okay? Some kind of a

    14 hole dug in the ground that was in front of hangar 6,

    15 but it's not on the model; do you recall testifying to

    16 that?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. And you had a machine gun there that was to

    19 both cover the front of hangar 6 and to prevent people

    20 from breaking into the camp to harm the inmates?

    21 Didn't you testify to that? I'm looking for it right

    22 now. I believe that's what you said.

    23 A. It wasn't my machine gun. It was a machine

    24 gun that was located there, but it's not that I would

    25 have it there whenever I wanted. It was stationed

  69. 1 there.

    2 Q. Yes, I understand it was stationed with the

    3 guard post.

    4 A. Yes, and at the beginning two guards were

    5 sitting there. After that one was moved to this mound.

    6 Q. And in fact, one of the reasons it was moved

    7 to the mound was because you were stationed there in

    8 that guard point and didn't like being, you call it I

    9 think a ditch, I call it a fox hole, being full of

    10 water. You wanted something drier; is that right?

    11 A. That wasn't the reason. I was ordered to

    12 have this, hold this position in order to have better

    13 control over the entire facility. It was not wet only

    14 in the fox hole, it was wet also where I was standing.

    15 Q. Okay. So, when your lawyer asked you on page

    16 15034 of the transcript at line 15 and 16, you said,

    17 "Now the dugout on top of the hill there, that was

    18 your idea to create that dugout, wasn't it?"

    19 And on line 17 the answer starts off, "Yes,

    20 when I was ordered to be in the guard post I was always

    21 sitting in the field, but you know if a car passed or

    22 some drunken soldiers passed by they would shoot at

    23 me. That's why I asked Mr. Delic if we should do

    24 something."

    25 So, was that just some kind, did I

  70. 1 misunderstand, that it wasn't your idea to build that

    2 guard post on the top of the hill?

    3 A. My idea was to dig the fox hole. And it, of

    4 course, wasn't up to me to decide where the guard post

    5 was. There were also other guards there, and we had to

    6 sit in that field.

    7 And quite often it would happen that somebody

    8 was shooting from the village, the direction of the

    9 village, and there was a great danger that people

    10 would, a person would be hit. That is why I wanted, I

    11 thought that a shelter would be made, and Mr. Delic

    12 approved that, said that I could take and engage two or

    13 three people from hangar 6 and that we dig that out.

    14 Q. Okay, fine. And they dug out a dugout, and

    15 they put a roof on it; didn't they, so you could sleep

    16 in it? Wasn't it covered?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. In fact, show the judges on the model where

    19 it is, so we can all be sure what we're talking about.

    20 Just walk around and point to it.

    21 A. (Indicating).

    22 Q. Fine. Thank you. Thank you very much, sir.

    23 And you slept in there because you were, because of

    24 your health problems. You moved a bed into that

    25 bunker; is that right?

  71. 1 A. No, we didn't make, I made a bed there. And

    2 the reason why I slept there, namely when the shift

    3 would end, we couldn't find, often, a free bed to

    4 sleep, and we would sleep in the kitchen on the table.

    5 That, even that bed, it wasn't used just by me, but

    6 also by other guards, quite often so. And I didn't

    7 sleep always, every day there.

    8 Q. Okay, so if the transcript reflects on page

    9 15035, beginning on line 6, you discussing the

    10 premises, and you couldn't find a bed and sometimes it

    11 was too hot and too cold. And then you, starting at

    12 line 8 you say "Often, due to my health problems, I

    13 couldn't shift constantly from cold to hot and vice

    14 versa, and that is why I set all of this up," this

    15 being the bunker. "And I could sleep there, I could be

    16 on duty there. This was a dugout made of two parts.

    17 The guard would be sitting and watching while I would

    18 be sleeping."

    19 There were other reasons besides your health,

    20 the hot and cold that you set up that bed and

    21 everything in the bunker; isn't that right?

    22 A. When I'm speaking of the hot and cold, I was

    23 speaking also, I was thinking of Building D. I slept

    24 there in the hall where it was very cold. I was

    25 sleeping near the lavatories. And the administration

  72. 1 building, there was a lot of heat, and it was also a

    2 hot building in summer.

    3 So, that is why I linked this up, combined

    4 this. And that is why I made this makeshift bed. I

    5 didn't make it only for myself. Other guards were also

    6 using it. Neither the dugout nor this bunker, nor the

    7 bed. I slept on quite a number of occasions, but not

    8 only I.

    9 Q. And maybe you can help me with this,

    10 Mr. Landzo. Every bunker I've ever been in, every one

    11 of what we would call a field fortification is a pretty

    12 dusty thing. It's dirty. It's a hole dug in the dirt.

    13 If you're allergic to dust, wouldn't that affect your

    14 asthma if you were sleeping in there?

    15 A. If you've listened carefully to the doctor, I

    16 was allergic to house dust. And we had wood planks on

    17 the floor, there wasn't really very much room. There

    18 was some dust, of course. And there was dust also

    19 before the hangar, in the hangar, and dust also here.

    20 Q. Okay, so you're just allergic to some kinds

    21 of dust. I understand now, sir.

    22 A. That is what the test has shown. Maybe I'm

    23 allergic to all types of dust, but if I remember

    24 correctly it's house dust, it's feathers, and a change

    25 of climatic condition.

  73. 1 Q. Okay.

    2 A. Also, here in my cell I have problems when I

    3 dust my room, after that I have to use a spray.

    4 Q. Okay, fine. And let me go on to a different

    5 subject, sir. One more thing before I leave the

    6 bunker, okay? And that bunker on the top of the hill,

    7 the one you just pointed to, there was a machine gun

    8 there; wasn't there?

    9 A. Yes, later this machine gun was found in

    10 Bradina, it was brought to the camp, cleaned, and it

    11 was placed, located there where I was often on guard.

    12 There was a machine gun also at the entrance gate.

    13 Q. Okay. So, we have got that machine gun

    14 there, and let's set aside the one at the entrance

    15 gate, okay? We had that machine gun there, and then we

    16 had -- by the way, it had ammunition, didn't it? It

    17 could fire.

    18 A. Yes, I think some 30 bullets.

    19 Q. And you had another machine gun that was in

    20 that ditch that's out in front of hangar 6 that, the

    21 ditch that was always full of water; or are those the

    22 same machine gun?

    23 A. No, there were two, and the water was in the

    24 fox hole only when it rained.

    25 Q. But I was just discussing the fox hole with

  74. 1 the water in it, the one directly in front of hangar

    2 6. That had a machine gun that had ammunition, and the

    3 one on the top of the hill had a machine gun that had

    4 ammunition, and both of them could cover the area in

    5 front of the hangar 6; right?

    6 A. Yes. The, we, on the hill we wanted to cover

    7 the exterior perimeter of the camp. We had to -- in

    8 the beginning we had M-48 rifles with five bullets,

    9 after that automatic rifles with ten bullets; and with

    10 ten bullets, you could not defend if there were people

    11 who would be attacking with automatic rifles.

    12 At the time we didn't have in the camp any

    13 automatic rifles, that was the purpose of the machine

    14 guns there. And it wasn't my decision to place them

    15 there.

    16 Q. No, I understand, sir. You were just a

    17 guard, and you didn't make those kinds of decisions. I

    18 understand that, and nobody is criticising you for

    19 that, sir.

    20 I just wanted to make sure I understood there

    21 were two machine guns covering the front of hangar 6.

    22 And there were.

    23 A. No, no. One controlled the entrance to the

    24 hangar, the other covered the exterior area in front of

    25 the camp, the village, in order to control the

  75. 1 entrance. Because the one on the hill couldn't cover

    2 the entrance gate.

    3 Q. Okay. Fine. And you were afraid that the

    4 prisoners were going to riot, right? And you were

    5 afraid because you only had two M-48 rifles, each guard

    6 had one M-48 rifle with ten rounds of ammunition and

    7 that's why you were worried that the Serbs might do

    8 something, might overwhelm you?

    9 A. Yes, that was what we were told, to be always

    10 on guard. Also, when we communicate with the

    11 detainees, you know, I only arrived there at that time.

    12 I didn't know the people, I didn't know what was

    13 happening. That was the idea I had, that they were

    14 dangerous people, ready to do everything. And now what

    15 can I do with five bullets for a rifle and with 200

    16 detainees.

    17 Q. Okay, fine. By the way, it must have been

    18 tough to work that bolt action rifle with your hand;

    19 wasn't it? Could you work it?

    20 A. You said that you were in the army. As you

    21 know, you can cock it with two fingers. I mean, you

    22 were in the army.

    23 Q. Actually, sir, the weapons I used in the

    24 army, to be quite frank with you, were not bolt action

    25 rifles. I have very little experience with bolt action

  76. 1 rifles.

    2 A. It was like a hunting rifle, a carbine.

    3 Q. Okay, in fact, there is a picture around here

    4 some place if we really want to look at one.

    5 Let me jump on to another subject. Without

    6 going into any of the details, okay? Because I'm not

    7 going to ask you the details about it. And if your

    8 lawyer wants to do it on redirect, that's fine, but I'm

    9 just asking you in general, okay?

    10 Back in 1992 and '94, you gave some

    11 statements to the authorities in Bosnia about a crime

    12 you were accused of; right?

    13 A. Are you thinking of the murder of Bubalo?

    14 Q. Yes, thinking about the Bubalo case. Without

    15 going into detail, you gave statements about that to

    16 the Bosnian authorities; right?

    17 A. In 1992, it wasn't an official statement, but

    18 in 1994, an official statement.

    19 Q. And those statements were not truthful, were

    20 they?

    21 A. I couldn't tell you, I would have to look at

    22 them. There were some things which I said then which

    23 were not truth, the truth; but I would have to look at

    24 them in order to be able to tell what you is the truth

    25 and what is not.

  77. 1 Q. That's what I was asking you, that those

    2 statements were not completely truthful, and you knew

    3 they were not truthful when you made them; is that

    4 right, sir?

    5 A. Yes. At the time of my detainment in

    6 Pasovici village there were statements that I made.

    7 You know, some were at midnight, you would be taken out

    8 of the cellar, they would give you a paper with a

    9 written statement and they would order you to sign.

    10 So, I would sign without checking on them.

    11 There were such statements, but there are

    12 also statements where I know what I said.

    13 Q. Okay. And the statements that you knew what

    14 you said you didn't tell the truth in; did you?

    15 A. If you can show me the statement, then I will

    16 be able to answer you. Like this, I know there are

    17 things that I said that were true and there are things

    18 that I said that were not true. If you can show me the

    19 statement, then I can be more specific about them.

    20 Q. Actually, sir, I'm just asking about, I'm not

    21 asking about individual details. I'm just asking

    22 whether the statements were truthful. And here's why:

    23 Remember back on the 18th day of July, 1996, you were

    24 interviewed by a man named Bart D'Hooge and

    25 Mrs. McHenry, in the presence of your lawyer in the

  78. 1 U.N. Detention Centre.

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And they were talking to you about some

    4 statements that you made in 1994 to an investigating

    5 judge. Okay? And Mr. D'Hooge asked you on page 5 of

    6 the statement, "Did you sign any statements?" And you

    7 answered, "Yes".

    8 And then Mr. D'Hooge says, "When you were

    9 interviewed, did you tell the truth?" And you said,

    10 "no".

    11 And he responded, "You didn't tell the

    12 truth?" And you said "No." Do you remember that?

    13 A. Can you show this document to me? I cannot

    14 recall it. I cannot recall that part of the

    15 interview. I know that I was interviewed, that I made

    16 statements, but I don't know exactly what I said. I

    17 know that we had this interview. I know that the

    18 gentleman put questions, but I don't know exactly what

    19 I answered.

    20 MR. MORAN: Could we provide him a copy of

    21 his statement to the OTP? I've forgotten what the

    22 number is.

    23 MS. McHENRY: Prosecution Exhibit 102.

    24 MR. MORAN: 102?

    25 Q. Okay, I could tell you, sir, that it's on

  79. 1 page 5 of the English version. I have no idea where it

    2 would be in the Bosnian version.

    3 A. Yes, I have found it.

    4 Q. You don't have any problem with that being a

    5 correct transcription of the videotape of that

    6 conversation you had with Mrs. McHenry and Mr. D'Hooge;

    7 do you?

    8 A. I believe that this is true.

    9 Q. Okay.

    10 A. You know, as I said before, some statements

    11 are not true, some are true, but not all of them.

    12 Q. And the reason you gave in there for telling

    13 an untruth was because your lawyer in the Bosnian

    14 proceedings, whose name I don't remember -- what was

    15 his name, by the way?

    16 A. Mr. Brackovic.

    17 Q. No, no, no, the one in the Bosnian

    18 proceedings. You gave another name some place in your

    19 statement. Someone else represented you, you said in

    20 your statement to the OTP, at least.

    21 A. Fejzagic Esad.

    22 Q. That's right, and the reason you give in your

    23 statement for not telling the truth was he told you not

    24 to tell the truth; is that right? He recommended that

    25 you not mention this person. And if you go to

  80. 1 different areas in your transcript -- ?

    2 A. At that time he said it, because at the same

    3 time he was also the Defence counsel of Mr. Pirkic

    4 Midhat, which I had not known. He advised me not to

    5 mention the name of this person in the Court.

    6 Actually I had a confrontation with Pirkic

    7 Midhat where I denied everything. First of all, I was

    8 afraid of Pirkic Midhat. If you knew him you would be

    9 afraid of him, too. That's first.

    10 Secondly, he said that if I don't mention his

    11 name, he will help me to get out, he will help me to

    12 avoid a sentence because I was a soldier executing the

    13 order, and he at that time had been the brigade

    14 commander in Konjic.

    15 Q. Okay. And it was your lawyer that told to

    16 you make all these false statements, then.

    17 A. He advised me not to mention the name of

    18 Pirkic Midhat. And Mr. Delic Hazim -- well, let me

    19 answer you, since you asked me about these statements.

    20 I changed three or four statements at the Court at that

    21 time. And if you read them carefully enough you will

    22 see that I always try to avoid mentioning the name of

    23 the Delic Hazim. So there were a number of persons who

    24 influenced my statements at that time.

    25 If you read them carefully, you will see

  81. 1 that. And the statements made to the Prosecutor where

    2 I blamed the Croats and not the Muslims. And I think

    3 this should be clear to you now.

    4 Q. Do you recall saying in your statements to

    5 the office of the Prosecutor, and to help you along

    6 it's on page 50, starting about the middle of the page,

    7 talking about signing the statement, and Mrs. McHenry

    8 is asking you questions. And she says, "Why did you

    9 sign the 19" -- what did you have to -- in -- excuse

    10 me, "Why did you have to in 1994 sign the statement?"

    11 And your answer starts off, "And all this

    12 went through the lawyer who is defending me and who is

    13 defending the commander of the brigade, they had some

    14 accounts of their own". And then you went further on

    15 to say that, further down Mr. D'Hooge asked you if

    16 Mr. Delic told you what to put in your statement. And

    17 you responded, no, you were told to do that by your

    18 lawyer. Do you remember saying that?

    19 A. Sir, the statement I made to the Prosecutor

    20 is not entirely true.

    21 Q. The statement made to which prosecutor, the

    22 one in Bosnia or Mrs. McHenry?

    23 A. The statement to the Prosecutor, here, and

    24 some statements I made in Bosnia. And during the day

    25 you will hear why they are not true, what is true, what

  82. 1 is not true.

    2 Q. Okay. So --

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Moran, I think we

    4 will have to stop here and reassemble at 2.30

    5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.





















  83. 1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

    2 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

    3 are still under oath.

    4 MR. MORAN: May it please the Court?

    5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Mr.

    6 Moran.

    7 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

    8 Q. Mr. Landzo, first up, over the lunch break,

    9 did you discuss your testimony with anyone?

    10 A. I did talk to my lawyer.

    11 Q. Okay. Nothing wrong with that, I just wanted

    12 to know. Mr. Landzo, I am going to change to a

    13 completely different subject. And I want to ask you

    14 about a comment you made in Court when you finished up

    15 your direct examination. You asked the presiding judge

    16 to be heard about some conditions in the detention

    17 unit. That you were being kept alone. Do you recall

    18 making that comment?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And that's nothing new, is it? Well, let me

    21 rephrase that, that was an unfair way to state it.

    22 When you first came to The Hague back in the summer of

    23 1996, you were also kept away from the other

    24 defendants, weren't you?

    25 A. Not only me. We were all isolated. Each one

  84. 1 of us went alone for a walk. We went alone for our gym

    2 exercise. I had a talk with Mr. McFaden. He has shown

    3 me a letter from the registry that I was to be in

    4 isolation for two weeks, due to the possible danger of

    5 me being injured by Mr. Mucic or Mr. Delic. At least

    6 that was the type of information I received, but you

    7 can check it, of course.

    8 Q. That was back in 1996, sir?

    9 A. No, a few days ago when I began testifying.

    10 Q. I want to focus on the time after you got to

    11 The Hague in 1996, okay. There was some period of time

    12 after that when, at the request of the Office of the

    13 Prosecutor, within the rules for detention, the

    14 registry ordered that you and the other defendants not

    15 be allowed to get together. You and these other three

    16 guys behind me; isn't that true, sir?

    17 A. Yes. That was at the request of the OTP.

    18 Q. And that continued for several months after

    19 you got here, didn't it? That you were kept alone and

    20 were kept isolated and weren't allowed to be around any

    21 other Muslims?

    22 A. Yes, a few months. And after those few

    23 months, I received the permission to meet with Mr.

    24 Delic.

    25 Q. And after those few months, you were, we're

  85. 1 talking that occurred when? October, November of 1996

    2 that Judge Karibi-Whyte signed that order?

    3 A. I don't know exactly. I have that piece of

    4 paper in the detention unit. I couldn't tell you just

    5 off.

    6 Q. But, you and the -- you were kept away from

    7 Mr. Landzo -- or, excuse me, Mr. Landzo, it's been a

    8 long day. You were kept away from Mr. Mucic and Mr.

    9 Delalic and Mr. Delic. Clearly beyond the 18th day of

    10 July, 1996; right?

    11 A. I don't know how long I didn't have contact,

    12 but after a certain period, I could meet only with Mr.

    13 Delic. While with the other two accused, I had no

    14 contacts whatsoever.

    15 Q. Okay, that's fine. Let me go back to some of

    16 the other things we were talking about. Remember back

    17 in 1994 when you gave those statements to the

    18 Prosecutor's office back in Bosnia, the ones you say

    19 were somewhat true and not somewhat true? Do you

    20 remember those? We were talking about that right

    21 before lunch?

    22 A. I do know that, I did give some statements.

    23 Q. And those were the ones that you said some of

    24 it's true and some of it's not true?

    25 A. These statements were not completely true,

  86. 1 but I can tell you the full truth here. I think we've

    2 all gathered here to seek out the truth and I can tell

    3 it.

    4 Q. Sir, what I am getting at --

    5 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to

    6 object. He is not letting the defendant finish his

    7 statement. He said he'd like to tell the truth and Mr.

    8 Moran is cutting him off and not letting him finish his

    9 truth.

    10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He his telling the

    11 truth. I think through his examination he will tell

    12 the truth. I suppose that's all it is meant to be.

    13 MR. MORAN: Yes.

    14 Q. And I am just trying to get you to confirm

    15 that those statements were not the whole truth. In

    16 fact, that's what you told Ms. McHenry and Mr. D'Hooge

    17 on the 18th of July, 1996?

    18 A. For a few statements. I know a certain

    19 truth. That Mr. Delic ordered me, that that person

    20 must be killed. I know that that was the truth. There

    21 are some other minor elements, which have been adjusted

    22 because some people asked me to adapt certain elements.

    23 Q. In fact, what you told Ms. McHenry and Mr.

    24 D'Hooge was not that Hazim told you to lie in your

    25 statement, but that your lawyer told you to do it,

  87. 1 right? Your lawyer that represented you back in

    2 Bosnia, not Mr. Brackovic, but the lawyer that

    3 represented you back in Bosnia; isn't that right?

    4 A. Yes, but we would have to go and seek out the

    5 background of it all in order to make it clear to the

    6 Trial Chamber and you, sir. For all of you who are

    7 interested in this, what really happened and how it

    8 happened. All this is connected with the statement. I

    9 think it would be necessary to furnish an explanation

    10 and I think we would save a lot of time, all of us.

    11 Q. When you made those statements back in 1994,

    12 in Bosnia, the ones that you say that were not the

    13 whole truth, did you expect the officials of the

    14 Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina to rely on the

    15 truthfulness of those statements or did you expect them

    16 to know that the statements you made under oath were

    17 untruthful?

    18 A. When I gave the last statement, which Madam

    19 Uzunovic asked me, "Landzo, who is sending you to

    20 change your statement?" Because I denied that. She

    21 asked me, "was it Delic, Hazim? Because in your

    22 statements, you never mention him and try to protect

    23 him." So the judge, inquiring judge, knew this and I

    24 didn't intend to lie. I didn't go many times alone,

    25 but Mr. Delic informed the guard that I would have to

  88. 1 go to the Court and give a statement. And then the

    2 guard would come for me and tell me that I had to go to

    3 the Court.

    4 Q. Okay. And you expected the officials of the

    5 Government of Bosnia, Herzegovina to rely on the

    6 truthfulness of those statements, did you not? Do you

    7 understand the question?

    8 A. Well, I didn't expect it. They were bright

    9 enough to know what it was all about.

    10 Q. Okay. So they knew that those statements you

    11 made under oath --

    12 A. Well, they weren't under oath, sir. That was

    13 still in the investigative stage. You can lie to the

    14 police or the inquiring judge. That was the general

    15 stand, both in Bosnia and in the former Yugoslavia, and

    16 those statements were not made under oath.

    17 Q. Okay, so it was okay to lie then, okay,

    18 that's fine. Let me go on to something else.

    19 A. Well, it wasn't all right. But I made those

    20 statements according to the advice I received from

    21 others.

    22 Q. So from your lawyer and you just testified a

    23 second ago --

    24 A. Lawyer, Mr. Delic and Mr. Mitko Pirkic.

    25 Q. And you said just a few seconds ago, I am

  89. 1 reading the transcript." You can lie to the police or

    2 the inquiring judge." Okay, that's fine. Now, let me

    3 go on to something else. In July 1996, over in the

    4 jailhouse, you made a statement to Mrs. McHenry and Mr.

    5 D'Hooge. In fact, it's sitting right in front of you,

    6 the English version is sitting right in front of you.

    7 I understand your position now is that statement is not

    8 truthful; is that a fair assessment?

    9 A. It's not the complete truth. Well, but you

    10 will see that for yourself if you read it. And I

    11 stated that Mr. Delic was not a deputy commander of the

    12 camp, but just a guard. And, as you know, that's not

    13 true. And there are some other elements which are not

    14 true. And I am here to give the explanation and the

    15 truth to the Tribunal, to the Chamber.

    16 Q. Well, let me just pick an example; Scepo

    17 Gotovac. When Mr. D'Hooge and Ms. McHenry ask you if

    18 you murdered that man, if you killed him, you denied

    19 it, didn't you?

    20 A. Well, I denied that, but not only that,

    21 everything.

    22 Q. I just picked that as an example, sir, okay.

    23 A. You can see also on the other counts that I

    24 denied everything.

    25 Q. That's right. And that was because of two

  90. 1 reasons, right? You testified on page 15108 of the

    2 transcript, starting at line 7, about how when you were

    3 brought to Sarajevo, right before you came to The

    4 Hague, you were brought before a judge of the Supreme

    5 Court of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And he

    6 made a statement to you. And the way you construed

    7 that statement starts at line 18 on page 15108. "Those

    8 who confess, half is given. Those who do not confess,

    9 will be forgiven everything. Which means, how I

    10 understood him that we should not confess anything that

    11 brought us here." Did you take that as advice from a

    12 justice of the Supreme Court of the Republic of

    13 Bosnia-Herzegovina to be untruthful or just not to talk

    14 at all?

    15 A. I listened to the advice of my -- the then

    16 Defence and I denied everything. And what the judge

    17 from the Supreme Court said in Sarajevo, I remember

    18 that. He told this in the entire story, but probably

    19 he meant something. But I wasn't led by this advice.

    20 Q. Okay. So you didn't take it as advice from a

    21 judge to lie, you just took it that it didn't mean

    22 anything or not to say anything?

    23 A. I didn't say that the judge told me to lie, I

    24 just quoted his words. You can conclude what, but I

    25 listened to the advice of my then counsel and denied

  91. 1 everything.

    2 Q. Okay, so what the judge said didn't enter

    3 into your decision not to be truthful to Ms. McHenry

    4 and Mr. D'Hooge?

    5 JUDGE JAN: He was acting on the advice of

    6 his counsel, this is what he said.

    7 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, I just want to

    8 make sure that no judicial officer in any country would

    9 have recommended that he would tell an untruth.

    10 THE WITNESS: May I add an explanation? I

    11 know what the person said to Mr. Delic and myself and

    12 what the man looked like, but I don't know his name. I

    13 don't know whether that was a piece of advice or it was

    14 a sentence stated just like that. But I remember that

    15 he said and I construed a conclusion on the basis of

    16 that, what he wanted to say.

    17 MR. MORAN:

    18 Q. And the conclusion was, sir?

    19 A. Not to admit to anything, confess any.

    20 Q. It would have been a lot easier if you would

    21 have just said that a little while ago. Now, let's go

    22 on to something else.

    23 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to

    24 object to the side bar comments by Mr. Moran. They're

    25 uncalled for at this point. "It would have been a lot

  92. 1 simpler if you had so earlier." That's intimidating

    2 the witness also.

    3 MR. MORAN:

    4 Q. Mr. Landzo, I am not trying to intimidate

    5 you. If you feel that I am intimidating you, let me

    6 know and I'll back off. Okay?

    7 A. You're doing your job and I have a duty here

    8 and, well, no offence meant.

    9 Q. Okay, fine. We'll still be friends when it's

    10 over.

    11 A. I certainly hope so.

    12 Q. And then after you gave that statement on

    13 July the 18th, 1996, to the Office of the Prosecutor,

    14 there was a motion filed having to do with your

    15 competency to stand trial, you remember that? And

    16 because of that you were interviewed by probably more

    17 psychiatrists and psychologists than you ever wanted to

    18 see. You recall all those incidents? And you

    19 recounted some things in those statements to the

    20 psychiatrist that were not true, isn't that correct?

    21 A. Yes. Look, there were two reasons, as I have

    22 mentioned. My status at the time and the impossibility

    23 to remember everything. And I had an image in my head

    24 for which I considered to be true. And we must return

    25 to my Defence at the time who chose this tactics for my

  93. 1 Defence. You should ask him why he chose that.

    2 Q. Oh, we will. But, so the Defence at the time

    3 was that you were insane at the time of the crime, is

    4 that it? And that you, therefore, could not be held

    5 criminally responsible, is that what the Defence was?

    6 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to

    7 object. He is asking the defendant to come to a legal

    8 conclusion and that's not something that he is aware

    9 of. He knows that the statute says lack of mental

    10 capacity and diminished mental capacity. I doubt if he

    11 knows what the legal definition of insanity is.

    12 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think he knows

    13 what his Defence was.

    14 Q. And, in fact, he says, we must return to my

    15 Defence at the time who chose the tactics. Well, I

    16 want to know what the tactics were and I want to know

    17 what the Defence was and I think I am entitled to know

    18 that.

    19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, go ahead.

    20 MR. MORAN:

    21 Q. The Defence at the time was that you were not

    22 criminally responsible because of your mental

    23 condition; is that right?

    24 A. Well, you should ask him that.

    25 Q. Okay.

  94. 1 A. I just did what I was told to do.

    2 Q. And so you simulated inability to remember

    3 things, isn't that right?

    4 A. As I have said, I didn't simulate

    5 intentionally.

    6 Q. Well --

    7 A. This was my condition at the time. And I

    8 believe that all that I know, everything is the truth,

    9 but much of it is not the truth. But at the time this

    10 was the truth for me and I believed in that. And I

    11 would talk about it to anyone who asked me.

    12 Q. Sir, a couple of weeks ago, somewhere around

    13 the 3rd of July, do you recall talking to Dr. Lagazzi?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. And he wrote a report that's in evidence as D

    16 63/4. And, in that report, Dr. Lagazzi wrote, and I

    17 will read it to you or we'll get it for you and you can

    18 read it yourself. Dr. Lagazzi wrote on page 8, "On

    19 some occasions (as he now admits) he simulated

    20 disorders of awareness and orientation which were not

    21 compatible with the clinical reality of the case."

    22 Now, did Dr. Lagazzi just make that up or did he have

    23 some basis for saying that you simulated those or can

    24 you explain why Dr. Lagazzi would have that in his

    25 report if you didn't tell him that you simulated that

  95. 1 lack of orientation?

    2 A. I believe I know what you were speaking

    3 about. He asked me what the day is and what is the

    4 season. At the time, in fact, I wasn't going out. And

    5 I didn't have a watch. I didn't have a calendar. And

    6 I couldn't tell him. And if he concluded that I was

    7 simulating, well, he is a professional. Maybe he

    8 could, under these conditions, conclude that. But, I

    9 told him what I believed was the truth.

    10 Q. Okay.

    11 A. And that he concluded that I was simulating,

    12 he will be able to tell you more about that.

    13 Q. And on page 3 of his report, if you recall,

    14 there was a translation error. And --

    15 A. I didn't say there was a translation error, I

    16 just said what I had told him, I don't know how he

    17 understood it.

    18 Q. Yes, sir. Well, if you recall back when we

    19 were upstairs in that other courtroom and I was

    20 chatting with Dr. Lagazzi like I am chatting with you

    21 now, I asked him about a portion of his report, on page

    22 3 of his report, and he said there was a translation

    23 error. And the translation is in the sentence, he

    24 emphasised -- he being you -- emphasised that he was

    25 not mad. And here's where the translation error is.

  96. 1 The printed report says that he at no time simulated

    2 apparent temporal and spatial disorientation, as he had

    3 been recommended to do so. And, as I recall, what Dr.

    4 Lagazzi said was that you did admit it. And the next

    5 sentence says, He -- meaning you -- maintains that he

    6 only later understood that such an attitude was useless

    7 and counterproductive and he is, therefore, critical of

    8 his previous Defence counsel who persuaded him to make

    9 the wrong decisions.

    10 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to

    11 object because I can't understand the question. I

    12 believe there might have been three questions at one

    13 time. And if you could break it down, I believe it's a

    14 compound question and I don't believe that the

    15 defendant should be forced to try to follow that line

    16 of thinking right now. Could you simplify it? .

    17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Did the witness

    18 understand the question? If he did not, he will

    19 rephrase it.

    20 THE WITNESS: Partially.

    21 MR. MORAN: Okay.

    22 Q. What I was asking about if you remembered

    23 when Dr. Lagazzi talked about the translation in the

    24 paragraph that I read to you?

    25 A. I don't remember it exactly. I know that he,

  97. 1 in his testimony spoke about his last report along

    2 maybe these lines.

    3 Q. And he said he simulated this, he would have

    4 just been mistaken or wrong, is that what your position

    5 is, Mr. Landzo?

    6 A. I can't say what he thought, I am just

    7 telling you what I said at that time. It may be true

    8 that I said this to him, I can't recall everything, but

    9 I know that I told Dr. Lagazzi everything on the

    10 occasion of our last interview about everything. And I

    11 told him why there was a discrepancy between certain

    12 statements. I gave him the reasons -- well, I don't

    13 know exactly whether I said what you emphasised, but if

    14 this is what Dr. Lagazzi wrote down, then I guess this

    15 is what I had said, but I cannot recall it now.

    16 Q. Well, Mr. Landzo, there were only three

    17 people at that meeting. One was an interpreter, one

    18 was Dr. Lagazzi, and one was you; and all I am relying

    19 on is what Dr. Lagazzi said in his report.

    20 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to

    21 object, that is a misstatement. There were two

    22 interpreters. It had to go from Dutch to Italian,

    23 and Italian to Bosnian, so there were four people

    24 present.

    25 MR. MORAN: I'm sorry, there were four people

  98. 1 present, two interpreters --

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You're correct.

    3 MR. MORAN: I'm sorry Mr. Landzo, there were

    4 four people present. Two interpreters, and you, and

    5 Dr. Lagazzi. So all we have to rely on is what you

    6 tell us and what Dr. Lagazzi tells us, isn't that

    7 right? On what you said.

    8 A. Well, that is up to you to conclude. I don't

    9 claim that I am right on everything. I am just talking

    10 to you about the things I recall, and Dr. Lagazzi

    11 probably wrote down in his statement what he heard and

    12 what he recalls. It may very well be that I said

    13 something I cannot recall or that he put down something

    14 that he didn't understand well, I don't know that, you

    15 should ask the gentleman, you should ask the two

    16 interpreters, because there was really two interpreters

    17 there. There was one translating from Serbo-Croatian

    18 into Dutch and the other from Dutch into Italian, so I

    19 really don't know. And you see when interpreting is

    20 being done, it is not every word that is interpreted.

    21 And if you have two interpreters, of course you have

    22 two different languages and they, perhaps, will not use

    23 the same words.

    24 Q. Sure. And it could have been an

    25 interpretation problem and Dr. Lagazzi may just have

  99. 1 gotten mixed up, that's fine. Let's go back on to some

    2 of the other things you told me.

    3 A. It may very well be that I said something

    4 there, but I cannot recall it now.

    5 Q. That's fine. That's fine, Mr. Landzo. Now,

    6 that was what? The third time? Or the third sequence

    7 of times that Dr. Lagazzi interviewed you, right? The

    8 first two times were in 1996?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Late 1996, maybe early 1997. When you talked

    11 to Dr. Lagazzi, those first times, you told him some

    12 things that were not true, didn't you? Well, let me

    13 give you an example.

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Let me give you an example. You told him,

    16 for instance, that you were mixing pills and alcohol.

    17 And that wasn't true, isn't that correct?

    18 JUDGE JAN: That's already been covered. Why

    19 keep on repeating yourself?

    20 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, I just want to

    21 ask him a couple of things about that. Actually, the

    22 biggest thing I wanted to ask you about that was, you

    23 lied about that because your lawyer, Mr. --

    24 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to

    25 object.

  100. 1 JUDGE JAN: (Inaudible)

    2 MS. McMURREY: First of all, I was told in

    3 this Court in 1997 not to call the witness a liar. And

    4 I object that Mr. Moran is calling the witness a liar

    5 at this moment.

    6 MR. MORAN: Well, Your Honour, if I misspoke,

    7 I'm sorry, that statement was untruthful.

    8 JUDGE JAN: He already said that yesterday.

    9 MR. MORAN:

    10 Q. And the reason for your untruthfulness was

    11 because you were told to do that by your lawyer?

    12 A. I told you that on a number of occasions

    13 before.

    14 Q. And that, presumably, was to aid in your

    15 Defence. There were some other statements that were

    16 made about that time that were not correct to Dr.

    17 Lagazzi. There was the statement about -- what other

    18 things you did tell him back then that were not

    19 truthful, let's just start with that?

    20 A. If you give me the report, I will specify to

    21 you, sir.

    22 Q. Your Honour, if we want, we can do that or we

    23 can move on. It's the Court's pleasure.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have exhausted

    25 those things in regards to inaccuracies, move on to

  101. 1 something else.

    2 MR. MORAN:

    3 Mr. Landzo, would it surprise you if I told

    4 you that last night after you essentially waived the

    5 attorney/client privilege with Mr. Brackovic --

    6 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to

    7 object, has the Court ruled that that attorney/client

    8 privilege has been totally waived from Mr. Brackovic.

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Who is objecting to it?

    10 MS. McMURREY: I am objecting on behalf of --

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's not a privilege

    12 between you and him.

    13 MS. McMURREY: It is a privilege between my

    14 client and his former attorney and I believe it is my

    15 duty to --

    16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let me hear your

    17 submission that he is volunteering what he told you is

    18 privileged. Let's hear him.

    19 MR. MORAN: Are you asking me, Your Honour?

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let the person objecting

    21 make the submission. But after volunteering what went

    22 on between the witness and counsel, that statement is

    23 still privileged.

    24 MS. McMURREY: All I am asking is that there

    25 be a ruling that the attorney/client privilege has been

  102. 1 waived, so that either it's clear that it has or it's

    2 clear that it hasn't.

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If the witness

    4 volunteers whatever he told his counsel, the privilege

    5 no longer holds. If there was a privilege, he would

    6 have been the one to plead it. And he would not have

    7 said it at all.

    8 MS. McMURREY: My only concern here is that

    9 as his advocate, he may not know about the privilege,

    10 and I think it's my duty to object when it appears that

    11 some damage may be done to him. But if the privilege

    12 has been waived --

    13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: After extensively

    14 speaking on the privilege, to your knowledge, you were

    15 sitting down.

    16 MS. McMURREY: I just wanted to make sure it

    17 was waived or not waived.

    18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: After it's all been

    19 stated, you would have stopped him doing it at that

    20 time. It was your responsibility to have warned him

    21 that he should not do it, but you did not.

    22 MS. McMURREY: I think we discussed it two

    23 days ago, Your Honour, I just wanted to be clear.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You knew what he did.


  103. 1 JUDGE JAN: Far too long.

    2 MR. MORAN: Okay, Your Honour, I'm just about

    3 set to wind it down.

    4 Q. Would it surprise you, sir, if I were to tell

    5 you that when Mr. Karabdic was speaking to

    6 Mr. Brackovic on the telephone last night,

    7 Mr. Brackovic was asked about the Croatian death camp

    8 you talked about?

    9 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I'm going to

    10 object, number one; this is total hearsay and he has to

    11 prove the reliability of these statements. He is

    12 talking about Mr. Karabdic's conversation with

    13 Mr. Brackovic. If Mr. Moran had it, that's one thing,

    14 but we don't have any party here to this interrogation.

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you are right

    16 here. You don't have to introduce matters which are

    17 completely irrelevant. We have no idea about what you

    18 are talking about.

    19 MR. MORAN:

    20 Q. And so, you made these false statements in

    21 1996 and 1997 to the psychiatrist?

    22 JUDGE JAN: Statements that were incorrect.

    23 MR. MORAN: Incorrect?

    24 Q. And now you're here telling the truth; is

    25 that what you're saying, Mr. Landzo?

  104. 1 A. Yes, if you should be surprised with that, I

    2 don't see any problem here. Because I am aware of the

    3 responsibilities emanating from my lying here, if I

    4 should lie here.

    5 Q. Okay, so, we should believe you now, even

    6 though those other statements were not true.

    7 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, Your

    8 Honour. I pass the witness.

    9 A. I'm not asking anybody to believe me, but

    10 just to listen to my story, to what I have to say.

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions from the

    12 Prosecution?

    13 JUDGE JAN: I think Mr. Moran has --

    14 MS. McHENRY: Let me first do a couple of

    15 housekeeping matters with the usher's assistance.

    16 Mrs. McMurrey yesterday introduced a letter from

    17 Mr. Landzo to the office of the Prosecutor, and I now

    18 have the responses to Mr. Landzo and to his counsel.

    19 And just for purposes of completeness, I would ask that

    20 they be accepted.

    21 JUDGE JAN: You did not apply to him. You

    22 must pass it on to the Defence counsel.

    23 MS. McHENRY: There was both, Your Honour,

    24 you can see that both Mr. Landzo was replied to and

    25 counsel.

  105. 1 JUDGE JAN: If that's what it says, because

    2 where it was said he should be given death sentence.

    3 MS. McHENRY: That's the letter. And just

    4 for purposes of completeness, I'm not going to go into

    5 it further.

    6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it's, let's have

    7 the full cycle.

    8 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, I want the

    9 record to be clear that we have not insinuated that

    10 there was any impropriety on the part of the

    11 Prosecution. So we have certainly no objections to

    12 this.

    13 JUDGE JAN: There is no such insinuation at

    14 all.

    15 MS. McHENRY: The second matter, just with

    16 the assistance of the usher, there is a matter that was

    17 discussed in private session yesterday and something

    18 was redacted. At some later point the Prosecution is

    19 going to discuss that matter and argue that it not be

    20 redacted.

    21 I previously gave Defence counsel earlier

    22 this morning copies of some material already in

    23 evidence that we will be relying upon to show the

    24 relevance of the material. And just so that Your

    25 Honours have it now, I just -- .

  106. 1 JUDGE JAN: That incident is not part of the

    2 indictment at all.

    3 MS. McHENRY: That's right.

    4 JUDGE JAN: And evidence with regard to that

    5 might prejudice the case of the accused. That is why

    6 we said, redact.

    7 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, and I did not

    8 argue, we did not object at the time because we had not

    9 had a full opportunity to review the record. I'm not

    10 planning on arguing it now, but at some later point

    11 during the testimony, after Your Honours have had an

    12 opportunity to review what's already in the record, I

    13 will be arguing that that matter is relevant, at least

    14 for some limited purposes.

    15 And so, for now all I'm doing is providing

    16 the Court the portions of the record that I will later

    17 be relying upon.

    18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why don't you wait until

    19 that stage before you introduce it.

    20 MS. McHENRY: Fine.

    21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Because we're not sure

    22 whether it will be admitted at all.

    23 JUDGE JAN: The gentleman who was killed in

    24 that incident was also detainee in Celebici camp. I

    25 think that is evidence. And that gentleman, we have

  107. 1 not included in the indictment at all.

    2 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, we are not --

    3 the matter that I'm discussing does not have to do with

    4 the Bubalo issue.

    5 JUDGE JAN: I thought it was in reference to

    6 that incident.

    7 MS. McHENRY: No, it's not in reference to

    8 that incident. Thank you

    9 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry:

    10 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

    11 A. Good afternoon.

    12 Q. Sir, I know you don't know the exact date

    13 that you started working in Celebici, but you would

    14 agree it was some 7 to 10 days after the fall of

    15 Bradina; correct?

    16 A. I think it was mid-June, maybe the first half

    17 of June, something like that.

    18 Q. Now, is it correct that when you were in

    19 Celebici, Mr. Mucic ordered that the rifles of the

    20 guards be kept cocked, ready to fire at all times?

    21 A. Yes, and Mr. Delic insisted on that.

    22 Q. Now, you've already stated that Mr. Mucic was

    23 in charge of the camp. Who was in charge of the camp

    24 when Mr. Mucic was not present?

    25 A. Mr. Delic. When both were not present, then

  108. 1 the guard service commander, Sejo Mustafic was in

    2 charge.

    3 Q. Now, sir, did you have more authority than

    4 other guards or different kinds of authority, or just

    5 exactly the same authority as other guards?

    6 A. The same authority, like all other guards. I

    7 was not different from the others in any way. I was

    8 doing everything that the others were doing, I had the

    9 same orders.

    10 Q. Could any guard call a prisoner out of a

    11 hangar, or just certain guards?

    12 A. Any guard who was on duty, on the mound,

    13 above hangar 6. I was not always there. We would be

    14 on duty for a certain period of time, and whoever was

    15 on duty would be then called in.

    16 Q. And then is it correct that when you were not

    17 on duty, you could not call a prisoner out of the

    18 hangar?

    19 A. I could if I had an order of either the

    20 commander or his deputy to do so.

    21 Q. Now, you mentioned something yesterday, or

    22 Monday, about a knife which was given to an Arab

    23 TV crew. Can you tell me about that knife and the

    24 circumstances under which it was given to the TV crew?

    25 A. The knife was found behind the belt, I think,

  109. 1 of the person that allegedly had killed Muslims in the

    2 second World War, it was found on him.

    3 I asked Delic whether I could have the

    4 knife. He said yes, and I kept it as a souvenir. It

    5 was a knife going back to the second World War. And

    6 when a TV crew, whether it was Arab or not I really

    7 don't know, Mr. Delic took this knife from me and gave

    8 it to them. It was a very small knife.

    9 Q. And was Celebici visited on more than one

    10 occasion by TV crews?

    11 A. Once, as far as I know.

    12 Q. And is that when some Arab journalists came?

    13 A. Possibly they were Arabs, but I just saw

    14 people, individuals. I wasn't present when they were

    15 talking, in order to be able to conclude who they were

    16 and where they were coming from.

    17 Q. Now, you indicated that at least a few people

    18 were released from Celebici during the time that you

    19 were there. Do you know if two detainees named

    20 Vojislav Sinikovic and Vladimir Sinikovic were released

    21 when you were in Celebici?

    22 A. I don't know the names, but there were two

    23 brothers, and Redzo Balic came and a neighbour came to

    24 pick them up in order to exchange these two for Redzo's

    25 brother. And I know that Redzo came with a car and a

  110. 1 tire blew out, and they had to change it. So, these

    2 were two persons who were rather tall.

    3 Q. And do you know on whose authority those

    4 people were released? Or did you ever see any

    5 documents related to their release?

    6 A. No, no.

    7 Q. Now, Mrs. McMurrey talked to you about counts

    8 46 and 47 of the indictment, dealing with inhumane

    9 conditions, and she asked you some questions about

    10 food. Now, the detainees would bring the food from the

    11 administration building to the area right in front of

    12 hangar 6; is that correct?

    13 A. Yes. Two detainees would go from the hangar

    14 with a guard, they would take and receive the food from

    15 the administration building and in front of the hangar

    16 they would be distributing the food to detainees who

    17 would be coming out in groups.

    18 Q. And the detainees would come out in groups of

    19 five, wouldn't they?

    20 A. I know that these were groups between five

    21 and ten, something like that. They would hold these,

    22 they would have their plate, plates, and they would be

    23 sitting in front of the hangar on the floor, or they

    24 would be just kneeling down and eating.

    25 Q. And they only had a few minutes to eat;

  111. 1 didn't they, each group?

    2 A. Well, the time wasn't limited. They could

    3 eat it as long -- they had the portion, there was no

    4 need to rush them. They had their rations and they

    5 could eat it as long as they wished. In five minutes

    6 or longer.

    7 Q. Now, you stated in, when you testified here

    8 this week, that the prisoners got the same amount of

    9 food as the guards. You would agree with me in your

    10 prior statement to the office of the Prosecutor, you

    11 stated that the prisoners may have gotten less food.

    12 Do you remember that? And if so, what's changed your

    13 mind?

    14 JUDGE JAN: Read the whole sentence.

    15 Q. The question you were asked, "What about the

    16 food that was given to the detainees?" And you said,

    17 "We got the same food. The same food was given to the

    18 prisoners and the guards. The food was the same. It

    19 may have been less because there were so many."

    20 JUDGE JAN: May have been.

    21 MS. McHENRY: My question used the word

    22 "may", Your Honour.

    23 Q. "We got what we got, that was distributed."

    24 Do you remember giving that answer before?

    25 A. Yes, the ratio of food for us and for

  112. 1 detainees, we were 25, 30, guards, we received a

    2 certain quantity, while they were in 250 or 300

    3 detainees. Their quantities were much bigger in total.

    4 But the same food came in, but of course, the

    5 quantities could have been different. But we couldn't

    6 decide about that.

    7 Q. So, would you agree that the quantities may

    8 have been less for the prisoners, for each individual

    9 prisoner; is that correct?

    10 A. Possibly, possibly. I was looking when they

    11 were, they were distributing, they would get a ladle.

    12 Q. Now, going to the tunnel, about 40 persons

    13 were kept in tunnel number 9; weren't they?

    14 A. Approximately, possibly.

    15 Q. And there was a bucket that was used for

    16 human waste for when the detainees could not go outside

    17 to use the toilet inside tunnel number 9; wasn't there?

    18 A. I didn't know, wasn't acquainted with the

    19 situation inside hangar number 9. I knew better what

    20 the situation was in hangar number 6. I was there more

    21 frequently, and at the gate.

    22 MRS. McHENRY: May I ask that the witness be

    23 shown Defence Exhibit 9/4? I have extra copies with

    24 some English translations on them for the judges.

    25 Q. Sir, that was an exhibit that was previously

  113. 1 shown to witnesses from your counsel. That's a drawing

    2 you made; isn't it?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. And you would agree with me that in tunnel

    5 number 9 you've drawn something and said that that's

    6 where the human waste pail is; is that correct?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to

    9 whether or not tunnel number 9 had a human waste pail

    10 in it?

    11 A. These drawings were drawn on the basis of the

    12 statements of the witnesses. I knew, on the basis of

    13 that, I knew where they were sitting, and I made this

    14 drawing on the basis of the statement. But I haven't

    15 seen the bucket. Possibly it existed, but I have not

    16 seen it.

    17 Q. Now, the prisoners kept in tunnel 9 were

    18 considered to have been the leaders of the Serbs, the

    19 local Serbs, weren't they?

    20 A. Yes. And the organisers of the rebellion,

    21 and the most dangerous ones.

    22 Q. Now, Mrs. McMurrey read out to you parts of

    23 counts 46 and 47, to you, dealing with inhumane

    24 conditions. But she didn't read out the part about the

    25 atmosphere of terror created by the killing and abuse

  114. 1 of other detainees.

    2 Sir, you would agree that you participated in

    3 the existence of an atmosphere of terror in the

    4 Celebici camp; wouldn't you?

    5 A. Yes, I was executing orders. I wasn't the

    6 one to be able to decide whether somebody should be

    7 beaten or not. There were also other guards who did

    8 these things, and I was not present. So, if we want to

    9 speak about it, we could say that everybody who was in

    10 Celebici influenced the creation of such an atmosphere.

    11 Q. So, your statement would be that you didn't,

    12 you're not the only person who participated in the

    13 existence of an atmosphere of terror, but you were

    14 certainly one of the persons; is that correct?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Sir, you would also agree with me, wouldn't

    17 you, that in 1992 there were many reports in Konjic, in

    18 the town, about the mistreatment in Celebici?

    19 A. Many reports?

    20 Q. People talking in town about the mistreatment

    21 in Celebici.

    22 A. I didn't hear anything about it, but I would

    23 rarely come from Celebici to Konjic. It's possible

    24 that there were, because Celebici is not far from

    25 Konjic. It wasn't hidden, concealed so that nobody

  115. 1 would know about it. And then many other guards went

    2 home, maybe they spoke and talked about it. I don't

    3 know.

    4 Q. Well, sir, maybe I can refresh your

    5 recollection. Do you remember in your previous

    6 statement to the office of the Prosecutor, you

    7 mentioned the reports about mistreatment several times,

    8 and let me just read you one part. Question: "I

    9 believe you mentioned before that there were many

    10 reports in town about mistreatment of prisoners; is

    11 that right?"

    12 Answer, "Yes".

    13 Question, "Can you tell us about these

    14 reports and how widespread they were?"

    15 Answer, "It wasn't so much widespread, but it

    16 originated from the people who came into the camp to

    17 beat the prisoners and then spread stories that we were

    18 doing it."

    19 Question, "And how did you hear about those

    20 stories?"

    21 Answer, "I heard about these stories when I

    22 went home, and my mother asked me what we were doing

    23 there."

    24 Question, "This is while you were still at

    25 the camp; is that right?"

  116. 1 Answer, "Yes".

    2 A. Yes, my mother did ask me, but nobody in town

    3 would stop me and ask me what are you doing there. But

    4 I don't know from where my mother heard that. And this

    5 statement is not completely exact. But I heard that

    6 the guard, later on, that the guards who were

    7 participating in this talked about it. But I heard

    8 about that only after joining the military police.

    9 Q. Sir, let me go through a number of specific

    10 events. And I'll tell you right now that I'm not going

    11 to go over in detail the murders and tortures that you

    12 remember committing and already testified about, since

    13 there is no dispute about them, but I have a few

    14 questions about some of them. And I have some

    15 questions about some events that you haven't

    16 remembered.

    17 First, you testified yesterday and Monday

    18 about when you and some others murdered Mr. Scepo

    19 Gotovac; did you and the other guards use any

    20 instruments to kill him or did you just beat and kick

    21 him to death?

    22 A. I think that one of them had a police baton.

    23 Well, the others had their weapons, their personal

    24 weapons on them. And when the beating began it was

    25 dark, and the man was the ground. So, it was very

  117. 1 difficult to see who was beating with what, hitting

    2 with what.

    3 Q. Do you remember, before the final beating,

    4 had Mr. Gotovac ever been beaten before, to your

    5 knowledge, while in Celebici? If you don't remember,

    6 you can say you don't remember.

    7 A. I know that he came already beaten up to our

    8 camp.

    9 Q. And my question is, do you -- ?

    10 A. I don't remember. Possibly.

    11 Q. Now, with respect to the final beating, do

    12 you remember everyone else who was participating in or

    13 present during the beating besides any detainees?

    14 A. I know that we were five of us, but I really

    15 can't remember the names.

    16 Q. Now, let's talk for a minute about a killing

    17 where you had not received orders, and you talked in

    18 detail about before the killing you had gone to view

    19 some murders in an area near Repovci, and you heard

    20 that some Serbs from Bradina had done it.

    21 Now at some later point you heard it was not

    22 Serbs that had killed the people in Repovci; is that

    23 correct?

    24 A. That is what is being, that's the word that's

    25 being spread now.

  118. 1 Q. Now, is it correct that on your way back to

    2 Celebici camp from Repovci you tried to capture a Serb

    3 woman to kill her, too, but she got away?

    4 A. This didn't happen. I can't recall it

    5 happening.

    6 Q. You stated when you got back to Celebici you

    7 and about eleven other people started beating two

    8 detainees until finally Mr. Delic stopped the beatings.

    9 What was the name of the detainees, if you remember?

    10 A. I know that they were the ones who would

    11 regularly distribute food. One I've seen on the video,

    12 one of them.

    13 Q. Do you remember their names, or not?

    14 A. No, no, I don't.

    15 Q. Then you indicated you were still angry so

    16 you went to hangar 6 and told all the Serbs from

    17 Bradina to stand up. You would agree with me you

    18 wanted to hurt someone and you wanted that person to be

    19 a Serb from Bradina; didn't you?

    20 A. Do you mean -- you see, I was angry, angry on

    21 what I've seen and what I've heard, and this was my

    22 reaction. I didn't come there with the intention of

    23 killing anyone.

    24 Q. But you would agree with me that you wanted

    25 to hurt someone, and you wanted that person to be a

  119. 1 Serb from Bradina, to take out your anger. That would

    2 be a fair statement; wouldn't it?

    3 A. This is how you could put it.

    4 Q. Now, the person you killed, his name was

    5 Bosko Samoukovic; wasn't it?

    6 A. Yes, I was the cause of his death, but I

    7 didn't go there with the intent to kill him. Yes, that

    8 was his name.

    9 Q. And what did you use to beat him?

    10 A. There was a plank, or something like that.

    11 Q. Did you use your right or your left hand when

    12 you beat him?

    13 A. Left. Not just when I was beating him.

    14 There were two or three before him.

    15 Q. Now, did I understand you to say that you

    16 can't remember exactly how Mr. Samoukovic got to the

    17 infirmary?

    18 A. I know how he did. I told you that I think I

    19 ordered two or three detainees and together with them

    20 we took him to the infirmary. He could walk, but we

    21 were carrying him.

    22 Q. And so he was carried rather than driven,

    23 you're sure about that?

    24 A. No, not as far as I can recall it. He was

    25 actually carried on the hands that were clinched

  120. 1 underneath him by two detainees, so he was sitting on

    2 their hands.

    3 Q. Now, what happened after you killed

    4 Mr. Samoukovic? In other words, was there any kind of

    5 report that you made? Did you talk to anyone about

    6 this? Did anybody ask you about it?

    7 A. At the time when we were still in the

    8 infirmary, I was standing at door while he was examined

    9 by the doctors, Hazim Delic came to the infirmary to

    10 see what happened because there was a number of other

    11 guards that gathered there. He started raising hell,

    12 shouting at me. And after about an hour I was summoned

    13 to his office and he told me that he had to yell at me

    14 in front of these other guards and "Who fucks his

    15 mother", sorry I have to use these words, he

    16 said, "Fuck his mother, you should have killed him."

    17 Q. Going to another death in Celebici, Mr.

    18 Slavko Susic. Is the only time you saw Mr. Susic in

    19 Celebici camp when you were bringing him to tunnel nine

    20 and you hit him just a few times? Did you ever see him

    21 in Celebici at any other time?

    22 A. No. I cannot recall it. Maybe I happened to

    23 be there when I was off duty and when they were getting

    24 out I could have seen him. Next to tunnel 9 there was

    25 always a guard. In the morning two, three guards would

  121. 1 come who were off duty to help this guard next to

    2 tunnel 9 to take the detainees out to the toilet, to

    3 the washing area, and I may have happened to be there,

    4 but, and see him, but I can't recall it now.

    5 Q. Now, the occasion that you do remember, you

    6 stated that other persons, guards, were hitting him

    7 with a bat and with sticks. Can you tell us what kind

    8 of bat and what kind of sticks were being used by the

    9 other persons?

    10 A. One was hitting him with a police baton, and

    11 the others were hitting him by hands, because it was a

    12 very narrow area, there was not room enough for any

    13 larger object to be used for that purpose.

    14 Q. Now, do you remember everyone who was present

    15 or participating in this beating of Mr. Susic?

    16 A. I think there was a guard who was called

    17 Focak, the others I do not know. Focak was a very

    18 hefty man, so I recognised him.

    19 Q. I'm sorry, are you saying that right now you

    20 don't remember who the other people were, or are you

    21 saying that at the time you didn't know who they were?

    22 A. I can't remember it now. I probably knew

    23 these people, if they were guards, but I can't recall

    24 their names right now.

    25 Q. Do you remember, was this during the day or

  122. 1 night?

    2 A. I think it was about five, 6.00 p.m. when he

    3 was brought in. I think that was the time.

    4 Q. Okay. Now, you would certainly agree that

    5 your hand and your asthma did not prevent you from

    6 killing Mr. Gotovac and Mr. Samoukovic, did it?

    7 A. I did not kill. I did not kill. Are you

    8 talking about Susic?

    9 Q. No, I'm sorry, I have gone on to a different

    10 question. I am just -- I take it you would agree --

    11 well, let me just move on. Now, I would like to talk

    12 to you about Mr. Simo Jovanovic. Now, your testimony

    13 is that you are called him out of the hangar and you

    14 helped bring him back to the hangar, but that you

    15 didn't actually beat him yourself, is that correct? Is

    16 that your testimony?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Now who was it who actually beat him?

    19 A. I know that those were the guards who came

    20 from the Idbar village. I know one who had this large

    21 gavel that you use to beat meat. He would carry it

    22 around. And the next day he said that he would use the

    23 gavel and hit him on his head and everywhere else.

    24 Q. Now you say when these people first came,

    25 these other guards, and asked for Simo Jovanovic, you

  123. 1 were supposed to call them out. Why is it that the

    2 other guards didn't call them out themselves? Why did

    3 they need you to call Mr. Jovanovic out of the hangar?

    4 A. Because he was not allowed to have contact

    5 with detainees because he was not on duty. It was my

    6 duty to communicate with the detainees, since I was the

    7 guard on duty there.

    8 Q. I thought you said just a few minutes ago

    9 that if someone had an order from the commander or the

    10 deputy commander, the guard could call someone out of

    11 the hangar themselves, even when they weren't on duty

    12 or on post?

    13 A. He would get the order. He would ask the

    14 person on the guard post to call up the person, the

    15 detainee, that is. If I was not on duty, I couldn't do

    16 it. It had to be done by the guard on duty on that

    17 guard post. Of course, if I had been ordered to do it,

    18 I would then take over such a detainee who would have

    19 come out, but I couldn't call him up unless I was on

    20 duty.

    21 Q. And do you remember testifying differently

    22 just a few minutes ago about that issue?

    23 A. Maybe I didn't explain it well enough, but

    24 that's how it was. That's how it worked.

    25 Q. Okay. Now, when these people first came and

  124. 1 asked for Mr. Jovanovic, you thought they were going to

    2 beat him, didn't you?

    3 A. I assumed it.

    4 Q. Okay.

    5 A. But I couldn't do anything. I couldn't

    6 prevent it.

    7 Q. Now, you could hear the beating from where

    8 you were inside your guard shelter and -- that's

    9 correct, isn't it?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And you stated that the beating lasted about

    12 twenty minutes and you could hear the beating and you

    13 could hear the shouts. Could you hear Mr. Jovanovic

    14 begging for his life?

    15 A. Maybe. I know that I heard voices, but I

    16 can't recall the words. I heard voices. I heard

    17 swearing.

    18 Q. I am going to turn to something else, sir.

    19 Mr. Nedeljko Draganic, on how many occasions was Mr.

    20 Draganic beaten, if you can remember?

    21 A. You mean by the other guards?

    22 Q. I am asking just how many times that you know

    23 of that he was beaten in Celebici.

    24 A. I was present once, maybe I was present on

    25 some other occasions when he was beaten up, but the

  125. 1 rest I don't know. Because I really didn't know

    2 everything that was going on there. When I was on duty

    3 and what I was told to do, I know about. But what were

    4 the orders given to the other guards, I don't know.

    5 Q. Now, you stated you remembered hitting Mr.

    6 Spasoje Miljevic once. And on another occasion you

    7 burned his leg so that he would not be able to walk, do

    8 you also remember burning his hand with a heated knife,

    9 similar to what you did with Momir Kuljanin?

    10 A. I don't recall it really.

    11 MS. McMURREY: He never said he burned Momir

    12 Kuljanin with a knife, I don't believe.

    13 MS. McHENRY: I believe he did say that.

    14 Q. Sir, it's correct isn't it, that you did and

    15 you testified that you burned Mr. Momir Kuljanin with a

    16 knife?

    17 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, I apologise, I

    18 am incorrect in that, I withdraw the objection.

    19 MS. McHENRY: Okay, thank you.

    20 THE WITNESS: It was a metal object. Whether

    21 it was a knife or not, I don't know. But I know that

    22 it was a metal object.

    23 MS. McHENRY:

    24 Q. And you can't recall if you similarly burned

    25 Mr. Miljevic, is that correct?

  126. 1 A. If I had done it, I would certainly remember

    2 it just as I can remember the former incident.

    3 Q. Okay.

    4 A. He could walk afterwards.

    5 Q. Okay. Now, with respect to Mirko Babic, you

    6 said you didn't know who he was, but you would agree

    7 with me that in 1996, when you gave your statement to

    8 the Office of the Prosecutor, you were quite positive

    9 about who Mr. Babic was; is that correct?

    10 A. Could you please read my statement to me?

    11 Q. Sir, certainly. Do you know -- and I am

    12 going to read portions of this. I am starting on page

    13 80, portions of the transcript of how you know him.

    14 There are other discussions about what happened to him

    15 that I won't read now. You were asked, "do you know

    16 anything about the treatment of Mirko Babic?" And you

    17 said, "I know that when he was brought in, he was

    18 beaten." You were asked, "do you know who it is?" And

    19 you answered, "yes." And then later on, you were

    20 asked, "what was the age of Mirko Babic?" And you

    21 said, "40 to 50, middle-aged." You were then asked if

    22 you knew him from before and you said, "no." And you

    23 were specifically asked, "how do you remember this

    24 person?" And you stated, "I know when they took his

    25 personal information, he had a moustache." You were

  127. 1 then asked, "you just remember that from mentioning his

    2 name that one time?" And you answered, "yes, when they

    3 would come out in the morning, I knew who he was."

    4 Does that refresh your recollection about the

    5 fact in 1996 you did know who Mirko Babic was?

    6 A. It may very well be that I confused him for

    7 another person. I really didn't know who Mirko Babic

    8 was until he arrived here to testify as a witness.

    9 That was the first time I saw him and I thought,

    10 perhaps, I could recall this person, but it may be very

    11 well be that I confused him for another person.

    12 Q. Okay.

    13 A. I mean, I am really not sure. I believe that

    14 this is what I said, but it may very well have been

    15 that I have confused him with someone else because many

    16 of such people were brought in.

    17 Q. Okay. Now, let me talk for a minute about

    18 the women in the camp. It's correct, isn't it, that

    19 you believe that the women in the camp were all

    20 civilians?

    21 A. You mean personally I thought they were?

    22 Q. Yes.

    23 A. Yes. I mean, I couldn't fathom it that women

    24 of that age could have been members of a military

    25 unit. I had, earlier had an opportunity to see women,

  128. 1 but they were younger, who were members of the military

    2 unit. I was not sure, that was my assumption.

    3 Q. And, in fact, you believe that the reason

    4 Mrs. Cecez was in the camp was because her husband was

    5 thought to be a leader of the Serbs, correct?

    6 A. That was the story.

    7 Q. And do you know anything about the treatment

    8 of Mrs. Cecez or Mrs. Antic when they were in the

    9 camp?

    10 A. I heard stories.

    11 Q. And, in fact, was it generally reported in

    12 the camp that they had been raped while they were in

    13 Celebici?

    14 A. I didn't hear that at that time. I heard it

    15 in the course of the year 1994, '96 from Mr. Delic what

    16 was going on with these women. But, at that time,

    17 nobody was really speaking about it. I personally

    18 heard no one to that effect, except the case that I

    19 witnessed.

    20 Q. And what did Mr. Delic tell you about the

    21 treatment of Mrs. Cecez and Mrs. Antic?

    22 A. That they were raped.

    23 Q. Okay. Mr. Delic tell you anything about who

    24 raped them?

    25 A. He said that he raped them and he was

  129. 1 bragging about it when we were at the Zenica prison.

    2 He would tell this to everyone who wanted to listen

    3 him. And everyone knew him there as a person who slept

    4 with 600 women.

    5 Q. Your Honours, I now have a question about a

    6 sexual assault victim whose identity has not been made

    7 public and I would ask that we go into private

    8 session.

    9 (In private session)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

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    13 Page 15361 redacted - in closed session













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    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (In open session).

    18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed in

    19 this matter.

    20 MS. McHENRY:

    21 Q. Sir, you indicated that after the beatings --

    22 and, I'm sorry, after, when you saw the murdered people

    23 in Repovci, you were ordered to interrogate the Djordic

    24 brothers, which you did. Who told you that you should

    25 interrogate the Djordic brothers?

  132. 1 A. Mr. Mucic.

    2 Q. And it's correct, isn't it, that Mr. Mucic

    3 told you in interrogating the Djordjic brothers that

    4 you should use every possible way to interrogate them;

    5 is that correct?

    6 A. He may have said this, I don't recall it. He

    7 just told me, I know that to take statements from them,

    8 oral or written.

    9 Q. Okay. Well, let me show you something, sir,

    10 and see if it refreshes your recollection.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 263.

    12 MS. McMURREY: I would like to know if the

    13 Defence is going to be given a copy of it, so we know

    14 what it is that we're referring to.

    15 MS. McHENRY: Yes, I did supply extra copies.

    16 It has previously been provided to defence, but, right,

    17 there are extra copies now that the usher can give you.

    18 MS. McMURREY: Is this the document you

    19 provided at lunch time today or the first break?

    20 MS. McHENRY: No, I'm sorry, this is the

    21 document provided many months ago.

    22 MS. McMURREY: Okay, thank you.

    23 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have found the section

    24 in question.

    25 MS. McHENRY: Okay.

  133. 1 Q. And, sir, does that refresh your recollection

    2 about whether or not Mr. Mucic ordered you to question

    3 the Djordjics in every possible way?

    4 A. Maybe. But, if I may, I would like to

    5 explain statement, may I?

    6 Q. Well, sir, at this point, you don't need to

    7 explain the statement, you can just say whether it does

    8 or does not refresh your recollection about whether or

    9 not Mr. Mucic told you to use every possible way?

    10 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to

    11 object. She has placed the statement before him and

    12 has asked him to explain it and she is saying that he

    13 can't. And will the Court allow him to respond to the

    14 statement that's been placed before him?

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Put your question and

    16 let him explain what he tell us.

    17 MS. McHENRY:

    18 Q. Sir, you can explain it, but can you first

    19 tell me whether or not this document refreshes your

    20 recollection as to whether or not Mr. Mucic told you to

    21 use every possible way in interrogating the Djordjic

    22 brothers?

    23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Initially when you asked

    24 him the question, he couldn't recollect that right as

    25 to the taking of the statements. All he knew he was

  134. 1 asked to take statements. That was what he said.

    2 MS. McHENRY: He stated he did not remember

    3 if Mr. Mucic said that.

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You're now taking him

    5 back to his statements.

    6 MS. McHENRY: Yes.

    7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: To justify that he might

    8 have said such a thing. This is what he wants to

    9 explain.

    10 THE WITNESS: I really can't recall it,

    11 whether Mucic said it or not. But this statement here,

    12 I think that there is another statement, unless I am

    13 wrong. This was made in connection with the indictment

    14 issued against Mucic, Zdravko, and Ivica at the

    15 military court in Konjic. And I was asked, I think

    16 that Mr. Delic too was asked to make statements

    17 concerning the acts committed by Mucic because he was a

    18 Croat. And, at that time, there was a conflict, a

    19 clash actually, between the BiH army and the HVO. So

    20 it may very well be true, but I can't recall exactly

    21 what he had told me. I just know that he had told me

    22 to take a written or oral statement.

    23 MS. McHENRY:

    24 Q. And was this the only time that Mr. Mucic

    25 asked you to take statements or were there other

  135. 1 occasions where Mr. Mucic also asked you to take

    2 statements?

    3 A. Only this time.

    4 Q. Okay. And did Mr. Mucic indicate to you why

    5 he chose you to take these statements from the Djordjic

    6 brothers?

    7 A. No, I don't know.

    8 Q. Now, it's correct, isn't it, that as part of

    9 taking the statement, you did mistreatment the Djordjic

    10 brothers, didn't you?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. You would agree that you mistreated them, but

    13 it wasn't part of their interrogation; is that your

    14 testimony, sir?

    15 A. When I was interviewing them, I did not beat

    16 them. They were beaten up on other occasions.

    17 Q. Well, sir, you would agree that you,

    18 yourself, mistreated the Djordjic brothers, wouldn't

    19 you?

    20 A. Yes. When Mr. Delic came to the hangar

    21 together with me, if you're referring to that incident,

    22 then, yes.

    23 Q. And is it your testimony, sir, that when you

    24 put the fuse on Mr. Djordjic and when you made them

    25 perform oral sex, it was unrelated to their

  136. 1 interrogation? Is that what you believed?

    2 A. No, no, that happened after the incident in

    3 the administration building with Mr. Nimic. That

    4 happened afterwards. And I think that nobody

    5 interrogated them afterwards or talked to them about

    6 these events in Repovci while they were staying in

    7 Celebici.

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think, Mrs. McHenry,

    9 we might break now and come back at 4.30.

    10 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

    11 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.

    12 --- On resuming at 4.34 p.m.

    13 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

    14 are still under oath.

    15 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,

    17 Mrs. McHenry.

    18 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

    19 Q. Sir, in 1992 you knew that Mr. Mucic was

    20 Zejnil Delalic's right hand man, didn't you?

    21 A. I didn't know that. I told that to you, but

    22 I didn't know it for, as a certainty. I heard that

    23 from Mitko Pirkic. I'm not sure, I don't know.

    24 Q. Now, there was a written notice posted in

    25 Celebici from Mr. Zejnil Delalic concerning who had

  137. 1 authority to enter Celebici camp; wasn't there?

    2 A. I know that there was an oral order by

    3 Mr. Mucic.

    4 Q. Sir, do you remember in 1996, after you were

    5 indicted, but before you were arrested, giving an

    6 interview to a Bosnian newspaper?

    7 A. Yes, yes, I do recollect that I gave the

    8 interview.

    9 Q. And you were reported, sir, in that

    10 interview, to have indicated that if Mr. Delalic

    11 learned that a guard had mistreated prisoners, he would

    12 have the guards sent to the front-line, and that there

    13 was a written order from Mr. Delalic posted in the camp

    14 concerning who had authority to enter the camp. Do you

    15 remember saying those things when you gave your

    16 interview in 1996?

    17 A. I never said that. I gave an explanation. I

    18 gave my statement to the prosecutors what was the

    19 situation, and I can repeat that, if you want.

    20 Q. Maybe just -- and the explanation you gave in

    21 your interview with the office of the Prosecutor was

    22 that you did give an interview, that they correctly

    23 reported everything you said, except for the part

    24 dealing with Mr. Delalic.

    25 And is that still your testimony, sir, that

  138. 1 everything else was correct, and everything else

    2 correctly stated what you said to the journalists, and

    3 it was only the part about Mr. Delalic that you didn't

    4 say to the journalists?

    5 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, may I just ask

    6 for the assistance of the defendant if he could please

    7 be shown a copy of this document to refresh his

    8 memory? I don't know that any of us have seen it.

    9 MS. McHENRY: It was an exhibit to his

    10 statement and given that the witness appears to

    11 remember it without any problem, I don't think it's

    12 necessary. Of course, if the witness asks for it, I'll

    13 do it.

    14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions on that

    15 statement, if you're not correct what he has said, it I

    16 think it might not be necessary. But you can explain

    17 to him what the situation is.

    18 Q. You would agree, when asked about this

    19 article in your interview with the office of the

    20 Prosecutor, you agreed that you gave the interview, and

    21 you indicated that everything in the article correctly

    22 represented what you had said with the exception of the

    23 part dealing with Mr. Delalic; is that correct?

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You might as well show

    25 him that aspect.

  139. 1 A. I know that they were asking me about the

    2 structure of the prison, how the guards function, and

    3 at one point they asked me about Zejnil Delalic, but I

    4 couldn't say anything about that person. But they were

    5 mainly focusing on the events in Celebici. And at that

    6 time I didn't say anything about Zejnil Delalic, and I

    7 was surprised when I saw that article. I haven't seen

    8 it prior to that occasion when you've shown it to me.

    9 Q. Because it's already discussed in your

    10 interview with the office of the Prosecutor, I don't

    11 believe it's necessary to take the time to go through

    12 it. Let me move on to another matter.

    13 Sir, when witnesses, Prosecution witnesses

    14 have been in the courtroom, you and other accused have

    15 made threatening comments to the witnesses; haven't

    16 you?

    17 A. Mucic and myself, we only talked about that,

    18 but I didn't threaten anyone. I think I made a comment

    19 that listening to all that has been said and that I had

    20 done all that has been stated here, I would feel less

    21 guilty, I would feel better than to listen to all that

    22 has happened and that which has not happened.

    23 Remembering that. But somebody else interpreted that

    24 differently, and that's the way it turned out.

    25 Q. So, sir, is it your testimony that when

  140. 1 Witness J was on the stand that you did not raise your

    2 voice and say you wanted to lie him on concrete and

    3 step on him not one time but a million times?

    4 A. No, no, absolutely not.

    5 Q. Now, sir, are you aware of any improper

    6 efforts made by any accused in this case to tell

    7 Defence witnesses exactly what they should say when

    8 they testify?

    9 A. Do you, you're asking if I know about such

    10 attempts?

    11 Q. Are you aware of any improper efforts or

    12 attempts?

    13 A. I just commented for myself, I don't know

    14 what others did. I analyse all the witnesses, be it

    15 from the Defence or for the Prosecution. That's all.

    16 Q. Now, sir, is it a fair statement that you

    17 can't even remember all the times you beat, mistreated

    18 or tortured detainees in Celebici?

    19 A. I don't know whether I hit somebody once or

    20 five times, but if I beat somebody severely, or killed

    21 somebody, I think that I could remember that. But I

    22 cannot remember if I kicked one somebody. But if some

    23 bigger things occurred, that, yes, maybe not

    24 immediately in the beginning, but after all that has

    25 been stated in front of the Court, I think that I can

  141. 1 remember.

    2 Q. Well, let's then talk about some potentially

    3 bigger incidents. Can you remember all the times that

    4 you burned people, either by setting them on fire,

    5 setting their clothes on fire, putting a burning fuse

    6 around them? Can you remember all those instances?

    7 A. I know, I remember Spasoje Miljevic, and

    8 Kuljanin, Momir Kuljanin. That is where I perpetrated

    9 that, while for the others, I really don't know.

    10 Q. Mr. Djordjic, you testified about when you

    11 burned him.

    12 A. Yes, yes.

    13 Q. And my question, sir, is: Can you remember

    14 if there were any other occasions when you burned

    15 people?

    16 A. No, I don't remember, but probably I would

    17 remember if that had occurred. To tell you the truth,

    18 I didn't remember even these three cases when I arrived

    19 here in 1996. I didn't remember them. But I can say

    20 with, state with certainty that I participated in these

    21 events. While for the others, I really don't know.

    22 Q. Now, what kind of instruments, besides police

    23 batons, sticks, fuses and setting people on fire, what

    24 other kinds of instruments were used by you and the

    25 other persons in Celebici to mistreat the detainees?

  142. 1 A. I generally kicked with my feet because I

    2 couldn't do it with my hands. Others used, for

    3 example, a baseball bat, then parts of chairs.

    4 Q. How about gas masks?

    5 A. I know that they were in the warehouse under

    6 lock and key.

    7 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that the gas

    8 masks were sometimes used on detainees; wouldn't you?

    9 A. I don't know, it's possible. But if you ask

    10 me what I know, I don't know about that. Because I

    11 repeat, I wasn't the only guard there. You should

    12 verify with all, check with all guards what was

    13 happening. And I didn't do it, didn't use it, and I

    14 didn't have any access to these gas masks, they were

    15 under lock and key in Building D.

    16 Q. And now, sir, is it your testimony that you

    17 never heard of gas masks being used against detainees

    18 when you were in Celebici?

    19 A. Possibly I heard it then, in Celebici, but I

    20 don't remember now. Many events took place throughout

    21 the day or at night, and then I would hear these

    22 stories the next day. I didn't give them much

    23 importance. And then with time, this is forgotten,

    24 particularly if I wasn't in, on the spot where this was

    25 happening.

  143. 1 I have experienced many, many things from

    2 1992 until the present day.

    3 Q. Let me see if this refreshes your

    4 recollection, sir. Prosecution Exhibit 263, which is

    5 the statement you gave about the Djordjic brothers that

    6 you were shown a few minutes ago; in it you talk about

    7 how you put a gas mask on their heads and when they had

    8 no air, I took the mask off and continued questioning

    9 them.

    10 Sir, is it your testimony that you just put

    11 that in there about gas masks, even though you didn't

    12 know anything about them being used by you or other

    13 people in Celebici?

    14 A. Maybe I stated it, but I don't remember it.

    15 I know that the gas masks existed in Celebici and that

    16 they were in the warehouse. And I really don't know

    17 whether anybody used them, but I know that I didn't use

    18 them.

    19 But this statement, and these were statements

    20 against Mucic Zdravko and Mucic (sic) Ivica because it

    21 was the idea to put all the blame on the Croats. I

    22 mentioned already that many of these statements,

    23 allegations are not true. I was at the time in prison

    24 when giving these statements. I was in prison when I

    25 was giving this statement.

  144. 1 Q. Let me ask you, do you remember participating

    2 in any false executions, where you would pretend to a

    3 detainee that you were going to shoot him, although in

    4 fact you did not ultimately shoot him? Do you remember

    5 you or anyone else participating in false executions?

    6 A. I know -- .

    7 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, Your Honour, we have a

    8 problem with the transcript, line 19 used the word

    9 Mucic, when the used the word Buric. B-U-R-I-C

    10 I-V-I-C-A.

    11 A. On one occasion I wasn't on duty, and three

    12 of us, on orders of Mr. Delic, we came in front of

    13 hangar 6. He brought out a person by the surname of

    14 Kuljanin, I believe that the person surname was

    15 Kuljanin. He brought him out, and he ordered him to

    16 stand in front of that mound. There was a drainage

    17 channel. And while for the three of us to stand in one

    18 line, as if we would be falsely executing him.

    19 And Delic gave us orders how to prepare and

    20 cock the guns. I remember that case in which I was

    21 present.

    22 Q. Were prisoners ever placed in manholes?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Tell us what you know about when prisoners

    25 were placed in manholes, Mr. Landzo.

  145. 1 A. I remember when a prisoners from tunnel

    2 number 9 were taken, all the guards were accompanying

    3 this group of detainees from tunnel 9 to that manhole,

    4 we accompanied them, they were on one side, we on the

    5 other. I believe that Mr. Mucic, I'm not sure that he

    6 was present, but I know that Mr. Delic was certainly

    7 present.

    8 Q. Do you remember if prisoners were ever made

    9 to drink urine?

    10 A. I don't know that.

    11 Q. Do you remember cigarettes ever being put out

    12 in detainees hands?

    13 A. I didn't do it. I never smoked cigarettes,

    14 and I don't know about that.

    15 Q. Now, you indicated that you were ordered to

    16 torture and even kill prisoners, and sometimes other

    17 guards received similar orders. Do you know if all the

    18 other guards were ordered to mistreat prisoners, or was

    19 it just some guards?

    20 A. I, while I was at the guard position at

    21 hangar 6 I could hear the noises of hits, beatings,

    22 shouts, and somebody else was doing that. That was my

    23 conclusion. So, I believe others received orders,

    24 because sometimes I would come on guard duty in the

    25 morning and I would see that there are beaten persons.

  146. 1 I don't know, however, if they had the order, but I

    2 assumed they did have the orders to do it.

    3 Q. Well, sir, would you agree with me that there

    4 were some guards, not the majority, but some guards who

    5 did not mistreat prisoners?

    6 A. I can't recall it. At the time when I was

    7 there, I can't recall this sort of guards. Maybe

    8 afterwards, because I just spent a month-and-a-half,

    9 and when I left, other guards would come. I heard from

    10 stories in town that new guards would come in, maybe

    11 they did it.

    12 Let me just tell you that one person among

    13 the guards, Mustafic Sejo, I think was his name, was

    14 the only person that didn't do it. He was in charge of

    15 receiving the food, distributing the food, while all

    16 the others, more or less, took part in it. On one

    17 occasion, there were 15 guards that would beat up a

    18 detainee.

    19 Q. And was that on orders?

    20 JUDGE JAN: How would he know?

    21 A. Yes, because Mr. Delic was present on that

    22 occasion. And when this detainee was beaten, he caused

    23 an injury to his leg.

    24 Q. Were you present on this occasion?

    25 A. Yes.

  147. 1 Q. Who was the detainee, if you remember?

    2 A. Zeljko Ceces, called "Spanac."

    3 Q. Were Samir Hondo, Sarif Pajic or Senad

    4 Omerka, do you know if they were guards when you were

    5 Celebici?

    6 A. Samir Hondo was there while I was at

    7 Celebici. Omerka I'm not sure. I can't recall whether

    8 he was there at the time I was at Celebici. I saw him

    9 later on the videotape, he was a refugee and he lived

    10 in that part of Celebici next to the camp. But I

    11 cannot really tell you whether he was there at the time

    12 when I was at Celebici.

    13 Q. Did you ever see Samir Hondo mistreat

    14 prisoners?

    15 A. Not me personally.

    16 Q. As far as you know nothing bad happened to

    17 Sejo Mustafic and Samir Hondo in Celebici camp; did it?

    18 A. What do you mean bad? They were not

    19 detainees.

    20 Q. Right. But even though they didn't mistreat

    21 detainees, they were never beaten or killed themselves;

    22 were they?

    23 A. I have just told you that I don't know

    24 whether they were beating detainees or not. I wasn't

    25 there all the time. I would stay at home for a day or

  148. 1 two. But I personally never saw them, whether they

    2 were doing it or not. That's something I cannot tell

    3 you about.

    4 Q. Let me then ask, maybe get to the point

    5 another way, sir. Were you ever threatened while you

    6 were in Celebici?

    7 A. Yes, by Mr. Delic, as far as Esad Bubalo is

    8 concerned. He said, unless I do it I will be killed

    9 together with him, but Bubalo will be killed at any

    10 rate.

    11 Q. And with respect to the -- Mr. Bubalo was not

    12 a Serb detainee in the camp; was he?

    13 A. No, he was a member of the BiH army.

    14 Q. Do you know, did anything physical happen to

    15 Samir Hondo or Sejo Mustafic during the time they

    16 worked in Celebici?

    17 A. No, not as far as I know. I think no guard

    18 was harmed, as far as I know. Although there have been

    19 different cases, let me give you the name of the

    20 Albanian, he we called him Sok. He was detained, he

    21 was, his hands were wound with rope, he was tied to a

    22 heater, central heating. And I was sent to his

    23 girlfriend at night, I was ordered to bring him back to

    24 the camp, and I think that he was threatened to never

    25 leave number 9.

  149. 1 Q. And what Mr. Sok had done was to leave the

    2 camp; correct? Leave the camp without authorisation,

    3 he wasn't being punished for mistreating detainees; was

    4 he?

    5 A. Yes, he left the camp without authorisation.

    6 Q. Now, sir, Dr. Gripon said yesterday that in

    7 1992 you knew the difference between right and wrong;

    8 is that correct? In 1992, did you know the difference

    9 between right and wrong?

    10 A. I believe I did, but I couldn't influence it.

    11 Nobody asked me whether something was right or wrong,

    12 if I was asked whether something is right or wrong,

    13 many of these things would never have happened. There

    14 wouldn't have been the war to start with in

    15 Bosnia-Herzegovina and all these events at Celebici

    16 camp.

    17 Q. Sir, given that you knew the difference

    18 between right and wrong, did you ever make any attempt

    19 to report to anyone outside the camp, anyone in the

    20 TO or Bosnian Army or the police or the war presidency,

    21 or the papers, did you make any attempt to report to

    22 anybody what was going on in Celebici camp?

    23 A. I didn't try it. And I don't believe anybody

    24 would have listened to me, because the commander of the

    25 Internal Ministry Forces who was in charge of law and

  150. 1 order in the city would come. Had I complained to him,

    2 I would probably have not lived to this day. That was

    3 my assumption and that's what I was afraid of, and I

    4 thought it would be better for me to keep silent.

    5 Q. When you left Celebici, nothing bad happened

    6 to you as a result of your leaving the camp; did it?

    7 You weren't physically harmed at all when you left the

    8 camp.

    9 A. Maybe I was lucky to have reported to the

    10 military police. In '93, I believe, I believe, an

    11 attempt of my life was made, somebody tried to kill me

    12 when I was arrested in connection with the Bubalo case.

    13 Q. Sir, it's a fair statement, isn't it, that in

    14 1992 when you were in Celebici, you liked mistreating

    15 the people and you liked killing them; didn't you?

    16 A. You couldn't put it that way. I saw it all

    17 as an order that I have to execute. You know, one

    18 thing is to take pleasure over something, and another

    19 is to consider something to be your duty. If I liked

    20 it, why would I sit with the individual detainees the

    21 next day and talk to them? Why would I release, rather

    22 let Spaso Miljevic to see his mother if I liked

    23 mistreating him?

    24 I could sit together with a detainee and talk

    25 to him, but if I was given an order, I had to execute

  151. 1 it.

    2 Q. Well, sir, you would agree that you stated to

    3 Dr. Gripon that you mistreated the prisoners for two

    4 reasons: One, that you were ordered to do so; two,

    5 that you were bored and frustrated. You would agree

    6 you stated that to Dr. Gripon; wouldn't you?

    7 A. Could you tell me what was the interviewing

    8 question?

    9 Q. Sir, you were here yesterday, weren't you?

    10 And Dr. Gripon stated that you told him that you

    11 mistreated the prisoners for two reasons: One. You

    12 were ordered; and two, you were bored and frustrated.

    13 He also said that you stated that you never had any

    14 difficulty doing this and that you enjoyed it. That's

    15 correct, isn't it, Mr. Landzo?

    16 A. Let me explain to you. May I?

    17 Q. Sir, maybe you can first tell me. You did

    18 say that to Dr. Gripon; didn't you?

    19 A. I may have said it. But that may have been

    20 in the course of my, of our first interviews. And if

    21 this is the case, then I think I need to explain this.

    22 If you go through the reports prepared by Dr. Lagazzi

    23 and other doctors you will find similar statements.

    24 That was the period immediately upon my

    25 arrival here where I was in a tough situation. In the

  152. 1 morning I would wake up and I would hear shells falling

    2 on the prison. I would hear shots fired. For a period

    3 upon my arrival here I thought I was still in a war

    4 zone.

    5 And many things that I stated in our, my

    6 interview with the doctors at that time were not, are

    7 not true. I thought they were true at that time, and I

    8 thought I would have to state them as such. And, you

    9 know, I just couldn't get rid of all these things.

    10 Q. So what you would say, sir, is that when you

    11 talked with Dr. Gripon in 1997 or 1998, you thought you

    12 enjoyed mistreating the prisoners, but now you remember

    13 that you didn't enjoy mistreating them; is that a fair

    14 statement?

    15 A. Could you please repeat this?

    16 Q. If I understand your explanation, sir, it's

    17 that when you talked to Dr. Gripon in 1997 you thought

    18 you had enjoyed mistreating the prisoners, but now you

    19 recollect that you didn't enjoy it; is that a fair

    20 statement, sir?

    21 A. That's what I stated to him at that time.

    22 Q. I just asked you, sir, and you just indicated

    23 to me that what you stated to him you believed was true

    24 at the time. And so you would agree with me that in

    25 1997 you thought you enjoyed mistreating prisoners; is

  153. 1 that correct?

    2 A. These may have been my words in the course of

    3 this interview. I said it, I can't say I didn't say

    4 it, but what I understood under those words, I cannot

    5 explain to you now.

    6 Q. Thank you. And so, you would agree with me

    7 that you were the guard who was most chosen to mistreat

    8 prisoners when the camp management, when Mr. Delic and

    9 Mr. Mucic wanted someone to mistreat the prisoners, you

    10 were usually their first choice, weren't you?

    11 A. You should put this question to them why they

    12 made these orders. This is a question that I have been

    13 putting to myself time and again and I would like to

    14 have an answer to this question, why me?

    15 Q. Sir, don't you believe maybe it was you

    16 because it was known that you enjoyed it and you would

    17 do it without any problem?

    18 A. No, the reason was most probably the fact

    19 that they knew that if they gave me an order, I would

    20 execute it. I would do it and not because I liked it.

    21 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honours, no

    22 further questions.

    23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

    24 Any re-examinations?

    25 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour. May it

  154. 1 please the Court?

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.?

    3 Re-examined by Ms. McMurrey:

    4 Q. Now Ms. McHenry had just asked you some

    5 questions about when you left Celebici. And she said

    6 you didn't have any threats or any problems with your

    7 life then. Was there a time right after you left

    8 Celebici that Sejo Mustific came to your door?

    9 A. I think he arrived the same day, in the

    10 afternoon, and insisted they should go back. He told

    11 me that Mucic, Pavo, has arranged for a passport from

    12 me and that with him I should go to Austria, unless I

    13 went back this whole ploy would fail. Then, in the

    14 course of my stay here in The Hague, in a conversation

    15 with Mr. Delic, Mr. Delic told me that Mr. Delic and

    16 Mr. Mucic had a plan to kill me and he described how

    17 they were going to do it. Whether this is true or not,

    18 I don't know. But I am just telling you what I heard

    19 from Mr. Delic.

    20 Q. Thank you. Now, Ms. McHenry also asked you

    21 about detainees placed in manholes in Celebici. Were

    22 you also placed in a manhole in Celebici?

    23 MS. McHENRY: Objection as to relevancy.

    24 JUDGE JAN: The conditions in the manhole.

    25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can ask him.

  155. 1 MS. McMURREY:

    2 Q. Were you also placed in a manhole in

    3 Celebici?

    4 A. Not in Celebici, but in Pasovici, the Village

    5 of Psasovic. In Celebici I was detained in the

    6 infirmary in Building C and this was during the

    7 winter. The detainees, however, were located there

    8 during the summer.

    9 Q. And in Pasovici, were you placed in a manhole

    10 in order to persuade you to change a statement?

    11 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, I object, I think

    12 this is beyond the scope of cross-examination and

    13 irrelevant.

    14 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, Mr. Moran spoke

    15 for hours about his reasons for changing his statements

    16 and changing things inside of his statements. I think

    17 this is totally absolute re-direct as a result of

    18 cross-examination.

    19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ask him if he has

    20 anything to say.

    21 MS. McMURREY:

    22 Q. Were you placed in a manhole in order to be

    23 persuaded to change one of your statements?

    24 A. Yes. Together with me there were Mr. Delic,

    25 Buric Ivica and Dedic Osman. The three of us were kept

  156. 1 there and very often. I think every other day they

    2 would come and fetch me. After midnight they would

    3 take me to the second floor of the school building.

    4 There was an office there where I was supposed to give

    5 statements, where I signed certain statements. They

    6 would even beat me up there. And later, Mr. Delic

    7 insisted from the inspectors who had done it to explain

    8 to him what they were doing and why they were doing

    9 it.

    10 Q. Now, with the assistance of the usher,

    11 actually, it's in -- I'm sorry, it's Prosecution 103.

    12 If I might be handed that exhibit so that I can just

    13 take one document out of it. Thank you very much.

    14 A. I also forgot to add in connection with that,

    15 that probably also Mr. Delic and I was threatened that

    16 if we don't speak against Mr. Delalic they take us away

    17 and we'd never be seen again. And I believe that the

    18 same was said also to him. I tried to commit suicide,

    19 to jump from a second floor, but one of the

    20 investigators stopped me by stretching out a leg,

    21 tripping me, and then I was also injured slightly.

    22 Q. I want to show you right now what has been

    23 marked Prosecution 103. And is that a statement of a

    24 co-defendant in this case?

    25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I don't know how you

  157. 1 can impeach my client or this man with my client's

    2 statement. This is just totally irrelevant.

    3 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, if I might

    4 respond? He started by saying Mr. Landzo was changing

    5 his statement in this Bubalo case, which he questioned

    6 from for hours earlier today. All I want to say about

    7 going into the contents of the statement, that I want

    8 to have Mr. Landzo recognise the lawyer that

    9 represented Hazim Delic at the time on this document.

    10 That's the only name I want him to recognise because it

    11 was his lawyer too.

    12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can go on. But

    13 I don't see what relevance it has to what you're doing

    14 now.

    15 MR. MORAN: I would still object as to

    16 relevance because this man has told the OTP and he

    17 said, here, the man represented the 4th corps commander

    18 or something like that.

    19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's all right. I

    20 think he wants to know the lawyer who represented him

    21 at that time.

    22 MS. McMURREY: Yes.

    23 Q. If you could just look, Mr. Landzo, at this

    24 statement and there is a lawyer's signature on it.

    25 What is the name of the attorney that represented Mr.

  158. 1 Delic on that statement?

    2 A. Here the name is Fjzagic, Esad, who was also

    3 defending me, but I didn't know this officially.

    4 Q. Thank you very much. I don't need that

    5 exhibit any longer. I would like to also ask the

    6 usher's assistance to put D 80/4 in front of Mr.

    7 Landzo, please. Now at the back of D 80/4, there are

    8 some statements that you provided in 1994 to a court in

    9 Konjic. Have you found those yet?

    10 A. Yes, there are some statements here.

    11 Q. And these are the statements that Mr. Moron

    12 kept questioning you about today? . He kept saying,

    13 you lied in those statements, didn't he say that?

    14 A. Yes, the gentleman asked me about that.

    15 Q. Now I would you like you to look at your

    16 first statement and tell the Court what the date is of

    17 that statement.

    18 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, I think the

    19 Court can read the documents themselves. I am not sure

    20 that it's very helpful to have the accused read

    21 documents.

    22 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry, I am not going to

    23 ask him to read them, Your Honours.

    24 Q. Did you have a chance to look at that

    25 document?

  159. 1 A. Yes, the statement was given on the 29th of

    2 January, 1994.

    3 Q. And on the 29th of January, 1994, is

    4 everything that you said about Hazim Delic true in that

    5 statement?

    6 A. Yes, that he issued the order for the killing

    7 of that man.

    8 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would object to

    9 this line of questioning. All that I was asking him

    10 whether this statement contained untruths as he told

    11 the Office of the Prosecutor. If they want to retry to

    12 Bubalo case, I would be happy to do it. But I don't

    13 think we have the time or the desire.

    14 MS. McMURREY: Well, Your Honour, Mr. Moran

    15 took about five hours today telling us that these

    16 things were not true. I am just going to ask him if

    17 it's true or not. And we'll just go through the piece

    18 later. I am not going to have him go through what they

    19 contain, but is it true or is it not true.

    20 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would like a

    21 ruling on this. But also, I am going to have some,

    22 since she's opening up a fairly new area, I may have

    23 some more cross-examination.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: On whether these

    25 statements are part of the present proceedings, is it?

  160. 1 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, those statements

    2 were admitted not for the truth of the matter asserted,

    3 but -- especially those specific statements, but solely

    4 as the basis for part of Dr. Gripon's opinion. And if

    5 you check the record, I think you'll find that I ask

    6 him if he made statements in 1994 and if those

    7 statements were untrue and if that's what he told the

    8 Office of the Prosecutor without ever going into the

    9 contents of those statements.

    10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think even

    11 counsel is going to read the contents of the

    12 statements. All counsel is saying that what he has

    13 stated are true to the best of his knowledge.

    14 MR. MORAN: Well, Your Honour --

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We don't even need it

    16 for the purposes of this case. It's all voracity. It

    17 will have nothing to do with this particular case.

    18 MS. McMURREY: And I would like for it to be

    19 brought to the Court's attention that the statements

    20 are part of Prosecution Exhibit 102 and they're part of

    21 Prosecution Exhibit 103 that are already introduced

    22 into evidence. I didn't know that until earlier

    23 today.

    24 Q. Now, Mr. Landzo, would you look at your

    25 second statement there that you gave to the Court. And

  161. 1 what is the date on that statement?

    2 A. The 23rd of February, 1994.

    3 Q. And, in that statement, is everything that

    4 you said regarding Hazim Delic true also?

    5 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, same objection.

    6 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    7 MS. McMURREY:

    8 Q. And can you go to the next statement that you

    9 gave.

    10 A. 1st of April, 1994.

    11 Q. And is everything regarding Hazim Delic in

    12 that statement consistent with the other two and is it

    13 true also?

    14 A. Yes. That he conveyed the order to me.

    15 Q. Okay. I have no further questions on that

    16 line, thank you.

    17 I don't remember whether it was Mr. Moran or

    18 the Prosecutor's cross-examination, but someone asked

    19 you whether there had been a conspiracy in Konjic to

    20 prevent your witnesses from coming. Can you tell what

    21 happened to your family in January of 1998 when your

    22 money from the SDA party was cut off?

    23 A. My mother asked for an explanation and the

    24 person who was issuing that money said that she will be

    25 receiving the money. I knew only after Mr. Karabdic

  162. 1 had a talk with me.

    2 Q. Now, Mr. Landzo, is the whole Defence of

    3 Hazim Delic based on the fact that everyone is lying,

    4 you and the Prosecution witnesses?

    5 MR. MORAN: Objection, Your Honour.

    6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can't ask such a

    7 question.

    8 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I have no further

    9 questions of Mr. Landzo.

    10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have got a couple

    11 I would like to ask based on some of the new things

    12 that were brought up on re-examination --

    13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I didn't see anything

    14 new. No new material came from the re-examination.

    15 Everything arose out of cross-examination.

    16 JUDGE JAN: Are you closing your Defence

    17 now?

    18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, we have a couple

    19 of documents that we would still like to introduce into

    20 evidence. I am not sure whether they've already been

    21 introduced. They were the medical examinations of the

    22 Prosecution witnesses that appeared in this courtroom.

    23 And we all agreed that they would be examined. And I

    24 would like to offer those into evidence if they weren't

    25 offered into evidence before.

  163. 1 MS. McHENRY: The Prosecution would agree

    2 with that. They were submitted to the Court and

    3 they're Court documents. Because, in fact, the Court,

    4 I believe, for the most, requested medical

    5 examinations. But whether they're formerly exhibits in

    6 the trial, I don't know. And if they're not, the

    7 Prosecution would also request that every medical

    8 examination of a Prosecution witness be made part of

    9 the record. Thank you.

    10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Where a medical

    11 examination is directed at the instance of the Trial

    12 Chamber, every report arising from that normally has to

    13 be submitted to the Trial Chamber.

    14 MS. McMURREY: I just wasn't sure if they

    15 were admitted into evidence at this point.

    16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think they all have

    17 been admitted.

    18 MS. McHENRY: If I understand -- excuse me.


    20 MS. McHENRY: If I understand it, they were

    21 submitted to the Court and, therefore, they have, for

    22 instance, registry numbers. They don't now have an

    23 exhibit number. And so whether or not for ease of

    24 clarity, it would be helpful to give them separate

    25 exhibit numbers, I would defer to the Court. I would

  164. 1 think it would help clarify matters, but it's really up

    2 the Court as long as it's clear that they're evidence

    3 upon which the everyone can rely.

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: My memory isn't too

    5 sharp here, but which of the medical examinations are

    6 you referring to.

    7 MS. McMURREY: Only the ones while the

    8 witness was here in the courtroom, we asked that he be

    9 examined by a neutral examiner here in The Hague and

    10 that's the medical report that I am referring to.

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think --

    12 MS. McMURREY: I just didn't know whether it

    13 was into evidence or whether I needed, you know, to

    14 tender that into evidence.

    15 JUDGE JAN: It can be an exhibit.

    16 MS. McMURREY: Okay. So I also wanted to ask

    17 that with each one of the Prosecution witnesses that

    18 testified, there were photographs taken of the injuries

    19 and I believe that these photographs should also be a

    20 part of the evidence in this case. Well, there were

    21 more photographs taken.

    22 JUDGE JAN: I know, he himself admitted. So

    23 you don't need photographs of that. Your client

    24 himself has admitted.

    25 MS. McMURREY: I think the Mirko Babic one is

  165. 1 already in evidence.

    2 JUDGE JAN: It's only Mirko Babic's injuries

    3 that were admitted.

    4 MS. McMURREY: Well, also Branko Gotovac,

    5 Your Honour, the hernia.

    6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We did not direct any

    7 medical examination of him. I do remember that.

    8 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, we have a

    9 medical examination and a photograph of Branko Gotovac

    10 also.

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have it.

    12 JUDGE JAN: Only the Defence for the case is

    13 that is his family --


    15 MS. McMURREY: I have to admit that I

    16 certainly don't want to look at it again. Anyway, is

    17 today Wednesday? I have lost track. Wednesday

    18 afternoon and the Defence of Esad Landzo rests.

    19 MS. McHENRY: Just, with respect to the

    20 photos. My understanding is that the photos were

    21 already admitted into evidence and if the Defence

    22 counsel is trying to get additional photos in, we would

    23 at least be shown those photos.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I remember all those

    25 which you have ordered here. We have got the photos

  166. 1 and that's nothing new.

    2 JUDGE JAN: So the Defence of Landzo rests.

    3 Do you have your witness today?

    4 MR. OLUJIC: Judge Jan has not switched on

    5 his microphone and we are not getting the transcript.

    6 JUDGE JAN: I'm sorry, I said now the Defence

    7 of Landzo rests. I would ask the Prosecution if their

    8 witness is ready. Because the other day we said we

    9 would allow that rebuttal witness.

    10 MR. COWLES: Yes, the witness is down the

    11 block at the Promenade Hotel awaiting my telephone

    12 call. He is not present in court right now.

    13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the time is

    14 almost 5.30.

    15 MR. COWLES: We'll be prepared for tomorrow

    16 morning, Your Honour.

    17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So the Trial Chamber

    18 will now adjourn until 10.00 a.m. tomorrow morning.

    19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    20 5.25 p.m., to be reconvened on

    21 Thursday the 30th day of July, at

    22 10.00 a.m.