Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16062

1 Wednesday, 14th October, 1998

2 (Open session)

3 --- Upon commencing at 10.06 a.m.

4 THE REGISTRAR: I would like to correct the

5 following: Yesterday, two documents were submitted.

6 The first one which was numbered 111/3 should be

7 renumbered 110/3, and the second one, consecutively,

8 will be numbered 111/3.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

10 gentlemen. May we have the appearances, please?

11 MR. NIEMANN: Good morning, Your Honour. My

12 name is Niemann, and I appear with my colleagues, Ms.

13 McHenry and Mr. Huber, for the Prosecution.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the

15 appearances for the Defence, please?

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honour.

17 I'm Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil

18 Delalic. Mr. Delalic is also represented by my

19 colleague Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, professor from

20 Canada. Thank you.

21 MR. MORRISON: Good morning, Your Honour.

22 Howard Morrison. I appear for Mr. Mucic, together with

23 lead counsel Madam Buturovic and Mr. Greaves as

24 consultant.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the further

Page 16063

1 appearances, please?

2 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I

3 am Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, Defence

4 counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic. Mr. Delic is also

5 represented by Mr. Tom Moran, attorney from Houston,

6 Texas.

7 MS. BOLER: Good morning, Your Honours. I am

8 Nancy Boler, and I represent Mr. Esad Landzo.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will begin this

10 morning with Mr. Morrison and his witnesses for Mr.

11 Mucic.

12 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, may I be

13 permitted to raise just a very short matter about the

14 procedure yesterday afternoon when Mr. Delic spoke to

15 you? It won't take long, but I just wanted to put a

16 proposal --

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. Let's hear you.

18 MR. NIEMANN: It is a matter of concern to

19 us, Your Honours, because I think it could potentially

20 touch upon the broader issue of the trial itself, and

21 that's why I seek to raise it, Your Honours.

22 The difficulty is, of course, that there, of

23 course, can be no protest by any party to an accused

24 person addressing you immediately before you pronounce

25 sentence. The difficulty arises because of the change

Page 16064

1 in the Rules, whereby that can't happen now as a matter

2 of physical practicality.

3 Your Honours, the situation seems to be that

4 if an accused does address you at this stage and does

5 touch upon issues of guilt or innocence, then that

6 immediately becomes an unsworn statement. If it

7 becomes an unsworn statement, then there are certain

8 objections to it, Your Honours.

9 Firstly, the whole basis, as you know, and

10 Your Honour Judge Karibi-Whyte pointed this out

11 yesterday, the whole basis of the unsworn statement was

12 because the accused previously couldn't bear witness in

13 his own case. So the only way he would address the

14 Court would be through that procedure. Because of Rule

15 85(C), that is not a problem for this jurisdiction. It

16 has never been a problem for this jurisdiction. In

17 jurisdictions where it has been a problem, now it's

18 mostly been abolished, and accused persons can testify

19 in these own cases as witnesses in these own cases.

20 Therefore, it's not permitted when it comes to issues

21 of guilt or innocence.

22 I say it's a matter of general concern, Your

23 Honours, because it can raise issues between the

24 co-accused. It's not just a question for the

25 Prosecution to be concerned about. It does raise

Page 16065

1 questions between co-accused. Co-accused are deprived

2 of the right of cross-examination. Also, it does raise

3 issues which are of concern to the greater public and

4 victims to the proceedings, because things can be put

5 which can't be rebutted or subjected to

6 cross-examination.

7 It seems to me, Your Honours, that a possible

8 solution, which I would commend to you, is that if an

9 accused seeks to address you on questions of

10 mitigation, at this stage in the proceedings, that he

11 be asked to provide a statement. That can then be

12 scrutinised by the parties before he does so. If there

13 are issues touching upon guilt or innocence, they can

14 be addressed prior to him doing so.

15 It's very difficult to ask an accused person,

16 who is not trained in the law, to make a statement and

17 only restrict himself to matters of mitigation. What

18 represents matters of mitigation and matters of guilt

19 or innocence can be a very highly technical and

20 difficult issue and not really something that an

21 accused person can fairly determine.

22 It seems to me, Your Honours, that if there

23 is any further applications in this trial, and I would

24 submit in any cases before the Tribunal, that if a

25 procedure can be adopted whereby a statement is

Page 16066

1 provided so that Your Honours can be addressed and, if

2 necessary, rebuttal evidence could be called. That

3 would be a fairer procedure than to simply allow the

4 accused to speak and to raise issues which can't be

5 contested by cross-examination.

6 That's my submission, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is your real

8 application, because yesterday you made an objection,

9 and we acknowledged that you could object. I told you

10 the accused is entitled to make such statements if the

11 Trial Chamber allows him to do so. Since it is a

12 statement which is unsworn, it's not a matter which is

13 particularly on the record, as such.

14 MR. NIEMANN: If it goes to guilt or

15 innocence, Your Honours, this is the concern, because

16 the unsworn previously -- when an accused person

17 couldn't be a witness, that occurred during the course

18 of the trial, and that's because he couldn't be a

19 witness, but that's not a case now. There is a

20 mechanism available to enable it to be dealt with. If

21 he wants to get his side of the story through his own

22 testimony before the Court, he should do so through

23 sworn testimony.

24 The basis of my application is to ask Your

25 Honours to consider inviting the accused in this

Page 16067

1 proceeding, that if any of the others wish to address

2 you, that they do so by way of providing a written

3 statement first. That's what my application is.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber takes

5 note of that. Mr. Morrison, you can now carry on.

6 MR. MORRISON: Thank you, Your Honour. In

7 fact, the first three Defence witnesses to be called

8 are going to be examined in chief by Madam Buturovic,

9 and then I'm going to deal with the latter three

10 witnesses.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. You may proceed.

12 MS. BUTUROVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. For

13 today, we have called six witnesses in the Defence of

14 Mr. Mucic. I hope that this will not take long. These

15 witnesses will testify exclusively on the character of

16 Mr. Mucic. The first witness that I'm calling is

17 Mr. Velisa Boskovic.

18 (The witness entered court)

19 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

20 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

21 truth.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may take your seat,

23 please.

24 MS. BUTUROVIC: May it please the Court?

25 Thank you.

Page 16068


2 Examined by Ms. Buturovic:

3 Q. Mr. Boskovic, can you tell us where you're

4 coming from?

5 A. I'm coming from Montenegro.

6 Q. Where do you live now?

7 A. Now I live in the former Titograd area, which

8 today is called Podgorica.

9 Q. Is this in Montenegro?

10 A. Yes. That is in Montenegro.

11 Q. Where did you live before?

12 A. For the most part, I used to live in Konjic

13 and I worked in different towns in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 Q. When did you leave Konjic, and since when do

15 you live in Montenegro?

16 A. I left Konjic in 1992 sometime between the

17 10th and 13th of April.

18 Q. Could you please tell us what is your faith?

19 A. I'm an Orthodox Christian.

20 Q. What is your family relation with Mr. Mucic,

21 please?

22 A. Mr. Mucic and I are brothers-in-law.

23 Q. In other words, you are married to his

24 sister?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16069

1 Q. Can you tell me how long you have known the

2 Mucic family?

3 A. I have known them for quite awhile, more than

4 20 years, obviously, not continuously, because I worked

5 in different places, so I didn't spend all my time

6 around them.

7 Q. How long have you been married to Mr. Mucic's

8 sister?

9 A. About 20 years.

10 Q. Can you tell us, in the course of those 20

11 years of your marriage with Mr. Mucic's sister, in this

12 period, did Mr. Mucic, at any time, as far as you

13 noticed, show any bad attitude towards you, given your

14 confession?

15 A. No, he did not. It was not in him. I think

16 he liked everyone and respected every person. He was

17 not capable of hating anyone. He was a very sociable

18 person, so he did not distinguish between -- you

19 mentioned different ethnic groups. He did not

20 distinguish between them at all.

21 Q. I'm going to come back to that. I'm asking

22 you about the period before the war. Was he a sociable

23 person before the war, if you understand my question?

24 A. Oh, very much so, yes. That was his nature,

25 and he was well-liked in any society, in any one.

Page 16070

1 Q. Could you now tell me, was he inclined to

2 engage in physical altercations?

3 A. No, no. He would always take a deep breath,

4 and then he would proceed. In other words, he would

5 always try to calm things down and then try to resolve

6 a situation.

7 Q. Very well. Mr. Boskovic, can you say, was he

8 a reliable person? In other words, when he would

9 promise something to someone, that he would actually

10 follow through with that?

11 A. As far as I know him, he was always quite

12 reliable, as far as I can tell.

13 Q. Could you tell us, from your experience, was

14 he always consistent in the sense that he would always

15 react similarly in similar situations? In other words,

16 were his reactions or responses in similar situations

17 be similar?

18 A. I don't know how to tell you this. It

19 depended on the situation. I said that he was always

20 stable. He was always -- and he reacted in a way that

21 he thought fit.

22 Q. Very well. Do you know, was he prone to

23 alcohol?

24 A. No, no. I believe that he engaged in

25 sports. He lifted weights and things like that. He

Page 16071

1 taught children weightlifting also.

2 Q. Very well. With respect to your whole

3 family, was Mr. Mucic a person on whom the family could

4 rely?

5 A. Yes, of course. You know, he gave advice

6 very freely to everyone. He would recommend what would

7 be a good thing to do or a bad thing to do, what would

8 be a better thing to do and less good thing to do.

9 Q. Very well. My next question is: Was he a

10 person who would lie?

11 A. No, I don't think that he lied, either to

12 himself or to others.

13 Q. So he could have been trusted?

14 A. That is true, because he couldn't even lie --

15 he didn't know how to lie to his own benefit.

16 Q. With respect to your faith, from that point

17 of view, did he socialise with different confessions?

18 Who were his friends?

19 A. As far as his friends are concerned, he had

20 friends among all groups. You know, in Bosnia, Bosnia

21 is a mix of different people, and he had friends among

22 all different faiths and groups and, in fact, almost to

23 the point that there were more from the other faiths.

24 Specifically, maybe I can give you an example. He was

25 inseparable with Mirko Cerkez and I think that he cried

Page 16072

1 when Mirko Cerkez was killed.

2 Q. Thank you. In your opinion, was he more

3 inclined to the good or bad, socially speaking?

4 A. As far as I know, he was always inclined to

5 goodness. He was also very easy to get along with.

6 Q. Let me move on, Mr. Boskovic. Do you know

7 whether Mr. Mucic was keen on helping people, assisting

8 people, before the war?

9 A. As I stated earlier, he was always helpful.

10 He always would offer advice, and specifically, I can

11 give you an example. I started out in 1988 as a

12 private haulier, and I started in this business without

13 knowing anything about it. He advised me at that

14 time. He would even go with me on this. He was great

15 to work with.

16 Q. Thank you. Can you say whether he was

17 a sociopathic personality? In other words, was he

18 inclined to harm other people?

19 A. No, no. I think that he would rather protect

20 people. He would protect people more than himself.

21 Q. Can you say whether he was aggressive or was

22 he a normal person or was he a withdrawn person?

23 A. He was a normal person, completely -- a

24 person who had a lot of understanding with broad

25 outlooks. That's how I know him.

Page 16073

1 Q. Can you tell me whether he was an emotional

2 person?

3 A. Absolutely, 100 per cent. He was emotional,

4 and I'm talking from my personal experience. For me

5 and the children and, of course, his own sister, she

6 was closer to him than the shirt on his back.

7 Q. Can you tell me, do you know whether he

8 financially supported his family, his immediate family,

9 his brother's family, and his friends?

10 A. Whenever there was a need, he did, of course,

11 provided he was in a position to do so. But I think

12 that if anybody would request something of him in that

13 regard, he would always help.

14 Q. Thank you. Can you now tell us whether he

15 frequently visited members of his family and his

16 friends?

17 A. Very frequently, very frequently. He was

18 really dedicated to his family. He worked in Austria

19 and I was surprised at how often he would come back,

20 how often he would endure this. Every Friday, in fact,

21 every Saturday morning, he would show up in Konjic.

22 Q. A moment ago, you mentioned that he engaged

23 in sports. Do you know what other hobbies he had?

24 A. Fishing was his big hobby. Swimming.

25 Q. Do you know, did he have any trouble with the

Page 16074

1 law in Konjic?

2 A. I think that he had some problems with

3 respect to fishing.

4 Q. I have two additional questions for you. Can

5 you say whether Mr. Mucic, during the war, helped

6 anyone, a person of any faith? Did you hear anything

7 about that since you've lived in Montenegro recently?

8 A. Yes. I have heard -- this is what I'm

9 talking about. I heard that he helped people to get

10 out. He helped them -- he helped them, brought some

11 food. He tried to rescue them. I cannot really speak

12 about it very well because I was not there, but people

13 talked about it. So I heard occasionally, and some of

14 these people I don't even know, but they spoke about

15 him having helped.

16 Q. One more question, and it may be a little bit

17 awkward for you. If you don't want to answer, please

18 say so. Were there situations during this period, when

19 you were part of the Mucic family, that Mr. Mucic

20 expected of you to do something and you did not do so,

21 and how did Mr. Mucic react in a situation like this?

22 A. Mr. Mucic did not bear a grudge. Sometimes

23 there were promises not kept, but he would just get

24 around it. It would be just like jumping over an

25 obstacle, and he would turn it into a joke. This way,

Page 16075

1 he would sort of bring relief to both himself and me.

2 It was his kind of personality.

3 MS. BUTUROVIC: Thank you very much,

4 Mr. Boskovic. I have no further questions. Your

5 Honours, this concludes my questioning of this

6 witness.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

8 Any examinations by anybody?

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the Defence of

10 Mr. Delalic has no questions.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other questions?

12 MS. BOLER: The Defence of Esad Landzo has no

13 questions, Your Honours.

14 MR. MORAN: No questions, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have the Prosecution

16 any?

17 MR. NIEMANN: A couple of questions, Your

18 Honours.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann:

20 Q. Mr. Boskovic, you said that Mr. Mucic

21 couldn't lie and he didn't know how to lie. What do

22 you mean by that, that he didn't have the ability to or

23 what?

24 A. He was that type of personality. He didn't

25 know how to hide his own problems and other people's

Page 16076

1 problems. He never hid anything. This is the type of

2 person that he was. He couldn't hide anything.

3 Q. You said that he would protect persons more

4 than he would protect himself?

5 JUDGE JAN: We're getting both versions.

6 MR. NIEMANN: I'll try again. It may be

7 fixed now, Your Honours.

8 Q. You said in your evidence that --

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Go and see them and see

10 what the technical people will do. Go and check them.

11 THE INTERPRETER: We may test now, I think.

12 Things are back in order.

13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. We are working again now,

14 Your Honours.

15 Q. Mr. Boskovic, you said in your evidence that

16 Mr. Mucic would protect persons more than protecting

17 himself. When you made this statement, would you say

18 that it applied to Serb people as well as other

19 persons?

20 A. People in general, regardless of -- I mean

21 for everyone, regardless of who it was.

22 Q. In your estimation, if staying over in a

23 prison camp at night would have protected Serb persons

24 from being beaten, you would say he would do that,

25 notwithstanding the fact that it may expose him to

Page 16077

1 danger?

2 MS. BUTUROVIC: Objection, Your Honours.

3 MR. NIEMANN: I don't know how to respond to

4 that objection.

5 MR. MORRISON: I think the objection must be

6 -- I think the objection must be that the question is

7 based upon a hypothesis as far as this witness is

8 concerned.

9 MR. NIEMANN: It's not based on a hypothesis,

10 Your Honour. It's based on his record of interview.

11 In his record of interview, he said that he was too

12 frightened to stay over at night --

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's not within the

14 experience of this witness.

15 MR. MORRISON: That's what I mean, it's a

16 hypothesis as far as this witness is concerned.

17 MR. NIEMANN: I'll put it another way then,

18 Your Honours.

19 Q. If I was to put it to you that Mr. Mucic

20 himself said that he was too frightened to stay over in

21 the camp at night, for fear of being beaten by the

22 guards and others in the camp, and thereby not afford

23 protection to the witnesses, would you agree with that

24 statement or disagree with it?

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Did the question get

Page 16078

1 through to him? I'm not sure he got your question.


3 Q. Did you hear my question?

4 A. Yes. I did understand the question. I don't

5 know how to respond. I did not get the gist of it.

6 Q. I'll repeat it again. Do you want me to

7 repeat it for you?

8 A. Please do.

9 Q. You said in your evidence that Mr. Mucic

10 would protect persons, and he would do so, even though

11 that may expose himself to danger. My question is: If

12 I put it to you that he said that he was afraid to stay

13 over in the Celebici camp overnight, thereby possibly

14 affording protection to Serb prisoners, for fear that

15 he might be beaten or otherwise injured or hurt, would

16 you agree with that or would you disagree with that?

17 A. I was not in Konjic. I said that at the very

18 start, so I don't know what went on there. I don't

19 know anything about this, but I talked about him as a

20 person until the war and what he was like as a person.

21 I really wasn't down there, so I really don't know what

22 went on.

23 Q. What you're telling us is that you can only

24 speak for him up until the commencement of the war and,

25 thereafter, you can't testify about him.

Page 16079

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He is speaking about

2 Mucic, what he knows about Mucic. You might know

3 something else quite different, what Mucic told him,

4 but the witness, who is speaking of his own opinion,

5 might not know that.

6 MR. NIEMANN: He just said, Your Honours,

7 that he's only speaking up until the time of the

8 commencement of the war.

9 Q. You said he worked in Austria. Who did he

10 work for in Austria, do you know?

11 A. I don't. Honestly speaking, I don't.

12 Q. Do you know what he did in Austria, what job

13 he had?

14 A. To be honest, I really don't know.

15 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other witness? I

17 think -- have you any re-examination of him? If you

18 don't have, he is discharged.

19 MS. BUTUROVIC: No additional questions.

20 Thank you very much. I have an additional witness.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are discharged,

22 Mr. Boskovic. Thank you very much for coming.

23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

24 (The witness withdrew)

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have your next

Page 16080

1 witness, please?

2 MS. BUTUROVIC: I would kindly ask the Court

3 to call the witness Ljilja Adilovic.

4 (The witness entered court)

5 THE USHER: Would you read out the oath,

6 please?

7 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

8 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

9 truth.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please take your seat.


12 Examined by Ms. Buturovic:

13 Q. May it please the Court?

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may continue.

15 MS. BUTUROVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mrs. Adilovic, will you please state your

17 full name for the record?

18 A. Ljilja Adilovic.

19 Q. What is your maiden name?

20 A. Kuljanin.

21 Q. Where were you born?

22 A. In Konjic.

23 Q. Could you please be more precise as to the

24 neighbourhood of Konjic? Where is your family actually

25 from?

Page 16081

1 A. My family comes from Donje Selo.

2 Q. Tell us, please, how are you related to

3 Mr. Mucic? I apologise. The maiden name has not been

4 correctly entered into the record. So it should be,

5 perhaps, repeated. What we have here is "Puljenin"

6 with a "P". Your maiden name is Kuljanin with a "K"?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. Mrs. Adilovic, could you tell the Court what

9 you are by religion?

10 A. I'm an Orthodox by religion and I'm of

11 Serb ethnic background.

12 Q. Thank you. How long have you known

13 Mr. Mucic?

14 A. I've known him for about 22 years.

15 Q. How are you related to him?

16 A. My husband and his wife are brother and

17 sister.

18 Q. Since you've known each other for a very long

19 time, what could you say about Mr. Mucic? What kind of

20 man is he?

21 A. He's a very good person. He's very honest.

22 He's an honest friend.

23 Q. Can you tell us how well do you know the

24 character of Mr. Mucic?

25 A. I know him quite well, because we lived in

Page 16082

1 the house belonging to the mother of his wife. So we

2 used to see each other very often.

3 Q. How often was it? Could you be more precise?

4 A. We saw each other every day.

5 Q. These contacts were on a regular, active

6 basis?

7 A. Yes. One can say so.

8 Q. Did he ever help you in anything? Did he

9 ever assist you in anything? I'm referring to the

10 period prior to the war.

11 A. Yes, yes. He was always forthcoming.

12 Whenever we needed any kind of help, including

13 financial help, he would always be prepared to help us.

14 Q. In view of your religion and the fact that

15 Mr. Mucic is of a different religion, did you ever feel

16 uncomfortable in his company? Did you ever feel

17 threatened in any way?

18 A. No, never.

19 Q. So you didn't feel uncomfortable either?

20 A. No, no, no, the contrary. I always felt

21 quite comfortable in his company.

22 Q. Let us move on. Regarding this period that

23 you spent together, do you think that Mr. Mucic ever

24 had any evil intentions in respect of you?

25 A. No. I never noticed anything of this kind,

Page 16083

1 and I don't think he ever did have any evil intentions.

2 Q. Thank you. Did you ever discuss the issue of

3 ethnic background?

4 A. Yes, we did. Before the war, we used to

5 discuss it, but nobody ever insulted anyone. We

6 treated each other as human beings, not as members of a

7 particular religion.

8 Q. I believe that you have already answered my

9 following question. However, during these

10 conversations when the issue of nationality or religion

11 was discussed, was Mr. Mucic, did he voice his opinions

12 very loudly? Was he adamant about it?

13 A. No, no, no. This was more like a joke. It

14 was not something that was really important in our

15 environment, in our family.

16 Q. Thank you. Could you say that he had a

17 negative opinion about Serbs?

18 A. I can claim that he did not.

19 Q. Thank you. Do you know who was his best

20 friend?

21 A. His best friend was Mirko Cerkez, and he's a

22 cousin of mine.

23 Q. How is he related to you?

24 A. My mother and his father are brother and

25 sister.

Page 16084

1 Q. Does that mean that Pavo was not prejudiced

2 as regards religion or ethnic background?

3 A. Yes, that's correct, because he socialised,

4 not only with Serbs, but also with Muslims and others.

5 He had lots of friends.

6 Q. You've told us that your cousin was

7 Mr. Mucic's best friend?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Do you know what kind of relationship he had

10 with his other fellow citizens? Did he have any other

11 Orthodox friends?

12 A. Yes. In addition to Mirko, he had lots of

13 friends from Donje Selo, and he had friends from the

14 town of Konjic as well.

15 Q. Throughout this period, are you aware of any

16 incident of any people from Konjic who were somehow

17 angry with Mr. Mucic?

18 A. No, no, no, never.

19 Q. Was Mr. Mucic a revengeful person?

20 A. No, he was not.

21 Q. Do you know or did you hear or see Mr. Mucic,

22 during the war, help anyone, anyone from your family or

23 you personally?

24 A. He did help me personally. He helped my

25 parents and he helped my aunt, Koviljka Golubovic who

Page 16085

1 told me about that. She told me that if it had not

2 been for him, because she lived in Donje Selo, and they

3 were rather frightened at the time, that they wouldn't

4 have fared well because he would always protect them,

5 and he even brought them food.

6 Q. If the Court will allow me, I would like to

7 ask one more question, and I don't know whether the

8 witness wishes to answer this question. The wife of

9 Mr. Mucic, that is, his ex-wife, does she know that you

10 are here today testifying as a character witness?

11 A. Yes. She knows that. She knows that we like

12 him very much, and we told her that we would be going,

13 regardless of what she thinks of that.

14 MS. BUTUROVIC: Thank you very much.

15 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.

16 MS. BUTUROVIC: Your Honours, that concludes

17 my examination of this witness.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions?

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: No questions.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions?

21 MS. BOLER: No questions, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions by the

23 Prosecution?

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann.

25 Q. What did you mean when you said the

Page 16086

1 inhabitants of Donje Selo wouldn't have fared well

2 during the war? What did you mean by that?

3 A. I didn't say inhabitants of Donje Selo. I

4 mentioned specifically my aunt. She was afraid of the

5 soldiers belonging to a different ethnic background,

6 different army, and Mr. Mucic helped them by bringing

7 them food, and he was also protecting them.

8 Q. Now, you testified to the fact that Mr. Mucic

9 wouldn't insult anyone because of these nationality,

10 and he wasn't prejudiced to people with different

11 ethnic backgrounds. Have you ever seen him humiliating

12 other people from different ethnic backgrounds, in

13 particular, Serb backgrounds, either during the war or

14 prior to it?

15 A. During the war, I don't know, because I was

16 not there, but I know that he never did before the war.

17 Q. I take it that you're not aware of any

18 incidents during the war where he humiliated Serb, in

19 particular, one Serb person, because of his ethnic

20 background, in the camp at Celebici?

21 A. No, I don't know anything about that, because

22 I was not there.

23 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

25 Thank you for your testimony. You are discharged.

Page 16087

1 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. Thank you.

2 (The witness withdrew)

3 MS. BUTUROVIC: I would now kindly ask the

4 Court to call the witness Sejo Adilovic.

5 (The witness entered court)

6 THE USHER: Will you read out the oath,

7 please?

8 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

9 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

10 truth.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please take your seat.

12 MS. BUTUROVIC: May it please the Court?

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. You may carry on.

14 MS. BUTUROVIC: Thank you.


16 Examined by Ms. Buturovic:

17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Adilovic.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. Can you tell us where you're coming from?

20 A. I come from Konjic in Bosnia.

21 Q. Can you tell me what your family relation is

22 with Mr. Mucic?

23 A. I am the brother of his former wife.

24 Q. Are they divorced?

25 A. Yes. They divorced.

Page 16088

1 Q. May I ask you, as a former brother-in-law of

2 Mr. Mucic, do you consider to know him well?

3 A. Yes. I know him quite well.

4 Q. Can you tell me, how long was this period of

5 your acquaintance with him? How long have you known

6 each other?

7 A. It has been over 20 years.

8 Q. Did you visit each other?

9 A. Yes, very frequently. We had a very close

10 relationship.

11 Q. On the basis of such a long relationship and

12 association, can you describe Mr. Mucic as a person?

13 A. Yes, I can. He was a person who was very

14 popular. He was considered a person with character and

15 a person who would help others on any occasion. He

16 helped my family quite a lot, and we were always

17 together. That's about it.

18 Q. Can you tell me, was he a person of great

19 character, and was he consistent in what he was doing?

20 A. Yes, and he also could be trusted on his

21 word.

22 Q. Can you tell me what your wife is by faith?

23 A. She is Serb. She's Orthodox.

24 Q. And you?

25 A. I am a Muslim.

Page 16089

1 Q. And your sister married a member of what

2 group?

3 A. She married a Croat.

4 Q. Now, given your situation, that is, that your

5 wife is an Orthodox Christian, could you ever notice

6 that, in the behaviour of Mr. Mucic, that he was

7 showing some kind of animosity towards the Serbs?

8 A. No, on the contrary. He even associated with

9 my wife more, and he had a lot of friends among Serbs.

10 Some of my wife's cousins were his best friends. He

11 also had friends among Muslims and Croats. He is a

12 person who never considered religion or an ethnic

13 group.

14 Q. If I understood you correctly, he was almost

15 in better relations with your wife than others?

16 A. Yes, both with her and with her cousins too.

17 He had a very close friend who was her cousin.

18 Q. Thank you. Can you please say what he was

19 like as a person? Was he active and did he look to

20 contribute to the good in society, or was he very

21 passive and a person who was a troublemaker?

22 A. On the contrary. Pavo was always jovial. He

23 was very sociable, and he was making a lot of friends.

24 I'm not aware of any other way of his behaviour.

25 Q. So this is how you would describe him?

Page 16090

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know his characteristics? Was he a

3 man of short temper? Did he do something that he would

4 later feel remorse about?

5 A. If he was short tempered, and if he had any

6 remorse later, that was considering children. There

7 were a lot of children in our families, and if there

8 were some problems among them, this would be the only

9 time that he would maybe become short tempered a little

10 bit, when he tried to deal with that.

11 Q. Can you say regarding Mr. Mucic, whether he

12 had control over himself, that is, over his own

13 behaviour?

14 A. Yes, he had firm control over himself.

15 Q. Can you maybe illustrate it by an example?

16 If not ...

17 A. I don't know if I can recall anything now.

18 Q. Very well. Given that you have known

19 Mr. Mucic for so long, do you also know his family, his

20 parents and the wider family?

21 A. Yes, I do know his family, his whole family.

22 Q. In that regard, can you say whether you

23 noticed, in Mr. Mucic's family, on either side, that

24 is, on his maternal or paternal side, whether there

25 were any psychopathic members of the family?

Page 16091

1 A. No, there were none.

2 Q. What could you tell me about them?

3 A. These were people who were similar to Zdravko

4 or Zdravko was like them. They were very popular in

5 the community, and there were no pathological

6 conditions or anything like that in the family that you

7 mentioned.

8 Q. Very well. Thank you. Could you now say, if

9 you know, whether you could ever notice that Mr. Mucic,

10 in certain situations, would exceed the accepted norms

11 of behaviour?

12 A. No. As far as I know, no, he did not.

13 Q. Could you further say whether he was violent,

14 with respect to the persons of the other sex?

15 A. No, on the contrary. He was very attentive

16 to them.

17 Q. What could you say about him? Was he a

18 polite person or not?

19 A. I think he was a very polite person.

20 Everything I have said so far, I think, talks in that

21 respect. He was a wonderful person. I don't know what

22 else to say.

23 Q. Can you please say, in your opinion, did

24 Mr. Mucic respect other people? For instance, you, did

25 he respect you and your opinions during your

Page 16092

1 conversations and visits?

2 A. In any kind of debate or discussion, he was

3 keen on hearing out the other side. So he implicitly

4 respected other people and these opinions.

5 Q. Mr. Adilovic, can you now tell me, if you

6 know, what were his positions on mixed societies, given

7 the mixed demographics of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

8 A. He was married to -- I think that the fact

9 that he was married to my sister speaks volumes about

10 his position in that regard, because he does not

11 distinguish people by faith or ethnic group.

12 Q. You just stated that you were a mixed family,

13 in other words, you had mixed marriages in your family,

14 that they are different, all three religions

15 represented in your family. How did Mr. Mucic behave

16 in such circles? Was he withdrawn? Did he participate

17 in conversations? Was he a social --

18 A. On the contrary. He liked to socialise with

19 everyone. He was a person who really liked people.

20 Again, I repeat, the faith and nation meant nothing to

21 him. He was a person who was very popular in any

22 circle of people.

23 Q. Thank you. Can you now please say whether

24 you know that he did anything to anyone with any bad

25 intention? I don't know, to you and your wife, even in

Page 16093

1 some gesture?

2 A. As far as I know, he did not. I can cite a

3 number of examples when he helped us, but none in the

4 regard that you have just mentioned.

5 Q. Can you now tell me whether, on the basis of

6 his behaviour, in as much as you know him, and you said

7 that you know him quite well, could you conclude that

8 he is a pathological person?

9 A. Pavo is not a pathological person, nor will

10 he ever be one.

11 MS. BUTUROVIC: Thank you, Mr. Adilovic.

12 Your Honours, I have no further questions of this

13 witness.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: The Defence for Mr. Delalic

15 has no questions.

16 MR. KARABDIC: The Defence for Mr. Delic has

17 no questions.

18 MS. BOLER: We have no questions either, Your

19 Honour.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination of

21 this witness?

22 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann:

24 Q. Mr. Adilovic, did you live in Konjic during

25 the war in 1992? You have to say "yes" or "no" for the

Page 16094

1 transcript, otherwise it can't be recorded?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When you were there, did you hear of the camp

4 that was at Celebici?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you know what it was used for, what its

7 purpose was?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. From that, I take it that you knew that Serb

10 people from the area of the Konjic municipality were

11 being kept there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Also, I take it, you, at the same time,

14 heard, as did a number of people in the community, that

15 some people were being mistreated there; did you hear

16 that?

17 A. That they were taken there, yes, but that

18 they were mistreated there, no.

19 Q. Well, Mr. Mucic had a position there, didn't

20 he? You knew that?

21 A. I knew that he did something there, but I did

22 not know what. But let me tell you, I was a member of

23 the BH army, and I spent very little time in Konjic.

24 Q. Now, would you think that being in charge of

25 a camp which was exclusively used for the purposes of

Page 16095

1 detaining Serb civilians would be consistent with a

2 person who is favourably disposed to all ethnic

3 groups?

4 MR. MORRISON: I object on this basis to that

5 question. First of all, he's putting an assumption to

6 the witness that Mr. Mucic was in charge of the camp.

7 And, secondly, asking him to comment with the

8 consistency of that assumption. That is simply an

9 improper way to ask a question. It is also an improper

10 question to ask at a time when we are considering

11 matters which go clearly to sentence, because the

12 inevitable inference behind that question is that it

13 tends to support the Prosecution case that, A, he was a

14 commander of the camp and that, B, he did something

15 culpable in that position.

16 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, if I may address

17 the first question and that is in relation to character

18 evidence. This evidence and all of this evidence so

19 far, has been directed towards establishing that the

20 accused, Mr. Mucic, bore no particular prejudice

21 towards people of other ethnic groups. Indeed, he had

22 a Catholic or universal approach to all ethnic and

23 national groups. In my submission, Your Honours, it is

24 inconsistent for someone to be in charge of a camp

25 which is, specifically, directed towards gathering up

Page 16096

1 civilians and prisoners of war, and ultimately those

2 people being removed from that community, for someone

3 to be in charge of that position, of that camp, and yet

4 to have a universal attitude towards national ethnic

5 groups. It's a different matter if the evidence showed

6 that the person was conscripted or forced into this

7 position. That may present a different light.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think that is

9 the witness's evidence, that someone is in charge of

10 that position. He never gave such evidence.

11 MR. NIEMANN: No, but he's saying, Your

12 Honour, that Mr. Mucic is a man of great altruistic and

13 tolerant views towards people of other ethnic groups.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Towards everyone.

15 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. I'm submitting, Your

16 Honour, that it's an appropriate line of

17 cross-examination to suggest that that's not the case,

18 having regard to the evidence that's before you.

19 JUDGE JAN: How are they inconsistent? You

20 may be in charge of a camp of another community, but

21 that doesn't mean that you're not a tolerant person.

22 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I think it's

23 naive for anyone to suggest that in the Konjic area,

24 that this camp at Celebici was there for some sort of

25 altruistic reason.

Page 16097

1 JUDGE JAN: Not for an altruistic reason, but

2 for purposes of, maybe, security.

3 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, even if it was

4 for purposes of security, civilians were there, and one

5 could easily decline that position if they had held

6 these views, which was to taken an even-handed approach

7 to people of all ethnic groups and not to want to

8 participate in this. There is no evidence at all,

9 before you, that Mr. Mucic said, look, this is not

10 something that I agree with and I decline to

11 participate in this. I will go on and fight the war

12 but I will not be in charge of this camp.

13 JUDGE JAN: It's not going to the matters of

14 the case. You are not really confining yourself to the

15 question of sentence.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: My recollection is that

17 the witness merely said he knew he was in that camp.

18 He did not say in what capacity he was in that camp.

19 MR. NIEMANN: I'll move along, Your Honour.

20 Q. Have you ever heard Mr. Mucic use terms such

21 as "Chetnik" or "balija"?

22 A. No, I did not hear that.

23 Q. Would you say that it's in accordance with

24 his character to use such terms or not?

25 A. No, it would not be in his character.

Page 16098

1 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, Your

2 Honour.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

4 Any other examination? If there is none, then I think

5 we can discharge him. Let's have your next witness.

6 You are discharged, Mr. Adilovic.

7 (The witness withdrew)

8 MR. MORRISON: Slava Boskovic, please.

9 (The witness entered court).

10 THE USHER: Will you read out the oath,

11 please?

12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

13 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

14 truth.


16 Examined by Mr. Morrison:

17 Q. With Your Honours' leave. Can you give the

18 Court your full name, please?

19 A. My name is Slava Boskovic.

20 Q. I think you are the sister of the defendant,

21 Zdravko Mucic?

22 A. Yes, I am. Yes. I'm the sister of Zdravko

23 Mucic.

24 Q. This may be a delicate question. Are you an

25 older or younger sister?

Page 16099

1 A. I'm older than him, and he has no other

2 sisters. I'm his only sister.

3 Q. This is even more indelicate. How much older

4 are you than him?

5 A. I'm four years and three months his senior.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, I want you to, please, in

7 due course, explain a little bit about him as a boy,

8 because it's often the boy that becomes the man in

9 terms of character. What sort of a brother was he to

10 you while he was growing up? Once he had got past the

11 age of 6 or 7 and was beginning to develop as a person,

12 what sort of a brother was he?

13 A. He was very joyful but still a very quiet

14 child. He was quite obedient.

15 Q. Obedient to his parents or obedient to you?

16 A. Well, both to his parents and to myself.

17 Q. What sort of things did he like to do as a

18 boy? What were his hobbies?

19 A. He always liked sports.

20 Q. Anything in particular?

21 A. I can't remember anything specific. Yes, he

22 enjoyed fishing while he was young. He would go

23 jogging. He lifted weights, for example, and he liked

24 to work a lot.

25 Q. Was he a boy who had a circle of friends?

Page 16100

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were those friends all from the same

3 background as him or did they come from varying

4 backgrounds?

5 A. From varying backgrounds.

6 Q. By which, I mean, do they come from different

7 religious and different ethnic groups?

8 A. They were of different religions. The people

9 my brother socialised with were Muslims, Croats,

10 Orthodox.

11 Q. When he was older, when he was a teenager

12 becoming a young man, were you still both living at

13 home?

14 A. Yes. We spent a long time living together in

15 the same house.

16 Q. As brother and sister, how would you describe

17 your relationship? Sometimes it's close. Sometimes

18 brothers and sisters fight like cats and dogs. How was

19 yours?

20 A. We had a very good relationship. It was

21 always a very good relationship.

22 Q. Now, you are married, are you not, to Velisa

23 Boskovic, the first witness who gave evidence today; is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16101

1 Q. He comes from Montenegro?

2 A. Yes, he does.

3 Q. Did that present any problems, that you were

4 aware of, between your brother and your husband?

5 A. No.

6 Q. How did your parents react to your marrying

7 in that way?

8 A. They didn't have any kind of reaction in that

9 regard. They didn't mind my marrying an Orthodox from

10 Montenegro.

11 Q. How old were you when you got married?

12 A. I was 27, I believe.

13 Q. Did you then leave the family home and your

14 brother?

15 A. No, I did not leave our family house. We

16 stayed. We lived there for awhile, all of us.

17 Q. So even after you married, you continued to

18 see your brother and have contact with him?

19 A. Yes, because we lived in the same house, but

20 we had a separate quarters, separate flats within the

21 same house.

22 Q. As he turned into a young man in his early

23 20s from being a teenager, give us the sort of brief

24 character description of him that you might find on a

25 school report, if you were a head mistress writing to a

Page 16102

1 boy's parents. What would you write?

2 A. Well, I would write that he's a good person,

3 that he's still very obedient, has no particular

4 problems at school, either with fellow students or

5 anybody else. I think that he was the best in

6 everything.

7 Q. Now, in due course, did you have children?

8 A. Yes. I have two sons.

9 Q. How old are they now?

10 A. One is 19 and the other is 18.

11 Q. How did your brother behave towards your

12 sons? What was his relationship with them as they were

13 growing up?

14 A. He always had a very good relationship with

15 them, and my sons like him very much. He means a lot

16 to them.

17 Q. Have you, at any stage during your

18 observations of your brother, from the very earliest

19 days until now, ever seen anything in his nature or

20 character that has exhibited violence or anti-social

21 tendencies?

22 A. No. I never observed any such thing, because

23 he was always good natured, all smiles, and I felt very

24 comfortable in his company. I spent a lot of time with

25 him.

Page 16103

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 MR. MORRISON: I have no further questions of

3 this witness.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examinations

5 of this witness?

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: We do not have any questions

7 for this Defence.

8 MR. KARABDIC: We do not have any questions

9 either, thank you.

10 MS. BOLER: No questions, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have the Prosecution any

12 cross-examination?


14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

15 You are discharged.

16 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

17 (The witness withdrew)

18 MR. MORRISON: Mirjana Mucic, please.

19 (The witness entered court)

20 THE USHER: Read out the oath, please.

21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

22 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

23 truth.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may take your seat,

25 please.

Page 16104


2 Examined by Mr. Morrison:

3 Q. With the Court's leave. Can you give the

4 Court your full name, please?

5 A. My name is Mirjana Mucic.

6 Q. What is your relationship to the defendant,

7 Mr. Mucic?

8 A. You mean how we are related?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Zdravko Mucic is the brother of my husband.

11 Q. Where do you live at the moment?

12 A. I currently live in Germany.

13 Q. How long have you lived in Germany?

14 A. For four years.

15 Q. Before that, where did you live?

16 A. In Konjic.

17 Q. How long in total have you known Mr. Mucic?

18 A. For more than 15 years.

19 Q. Did you know him before you married his

20 brother?

21 A. Yes, I did, for about two years.

22 Q. How would you describe the relationship

23 between yourself and Mr. Mucic? Were you simply casual

24 acquaintances or did you get to know him well?

25 A. Throughout these years, we got to know each

Page 16105

1 other very well.

2 Q. Your family is from Konjic as well?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did he get to know your family, as well as

5 you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Give us, please, an indication of the general

8 nature of the relationship between Mr. Mucic and your

9 family, as opposed to you. How did he get on with

10 them?

11 A. He's a very sociable man, and he used to

12 visit my parents very often. He liked to joke with my

13 father, and they always had a very good time together.

14 Q. We've heard in evidence, and it's not been

15 challenged, that Mr. Mucic had a circle of friends

16 which included friends from other religious and ethnic

17 backgrounds. Did you have direct experience of his

18 friends from such other backgrounds?

19 A. Yes. My brother-in-law, Pavo, has a lot of

20 friends. He has a wide circle of friends, including

21 all nationalities, Serbs, Muslims, Croats. He spent a

22 lot of time socialising with people.

23 Q. Were you part of that social circle yourself?

24 A. Yes, I was.

25 Q. Did you ever see him, in any way, indicate

Page 16106

1 prejudice towards somebody because of their ethnic or

2 religious background, as opposed to, perhaps, some

3 personal difficulty he might have with them?

4 A. No. He never exhibited any similar type of

5 behaviour, anything that would be expressed in that way

6 towards these people. He liked everyone, regardless of

7 their origin.

8 Q. What would his reaction be if somebody did

9 something that he didn't approve of or didn't like?

10 A. Well, he would try to explain why this was

11 not good, and he tried to say that there were other

12 ways of going about that. He always liked giving

13 advice to people.

14 Q. I'm going to ask you the same question that I

15 asked the previous witness, and it was perhaps a

16 question that came as a little surprise to her, and it

17 may to you. I want you to imagine, please, that you

18 are writing a very short reference for Mr. Mucic as,

19 perhaps, a head mistress or an ex-employer, and you

20 wanted to convey to other people, as truthfully as

21 possible, his character. In a few short sentences,

22 what would you say about him?

23 A. That's an interesting question. It's very

24 difficult to put it all in words. However, I can say

25 that he is a wonderful, complete person, and I'm very

Page 16107

1 glad to have a man like him for a brother-in-law, for a

2 friend, a man with whom I've spent a lot of time in my

3 life.

4 MR. MORRISON: Thank you very much. I have

5 no further questions of this witness.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions?

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: No questions for Delalic.

8 MR. KARABDIC: No questions for Mr. Delic

9 either.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have the Prosecution any

11 cross-examination?

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann:

13 Q. Mrs. Mucic, did the accused Mr. Mucic ever

14 show you any videos that he had taken in the Konjic

15 area, and, in particular, in Celebici, in 1992?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Have you ever heard him use terms such as

18 "balija" or "Chetnik"?

19 A. No, never.

20 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. No further

21 questions.

22 MR. MORRISON: No re-examination. Thank

23 you.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I

25 think the Trial Chamber will now rise and reassemble at

Page 16108

1 noon.

2 --- Recess taken at 11.30 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We are continuing with

5 Mr. Morrison.

6 MR. MORRISON: Thank you, Your Honour. We

7 are now dealing with the last of the witnesses to give

8 oral evidence on behalf of Mr. Mucic, and the witness

9 Sanda Mucic is being called as I speak.

10 (The witness entered court)

11 THE USHER: Would you read out this oath,

12 please?

13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

14 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

15 truth.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. You may sit down,

17 Witness.

18 MR. MORRISON: With Your Honours' leave?

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can proceed,

20 Mr. Morrison.


22 Examined by Mr. Morrison:

23 Q. Can you give the Court your full name,

24 please?

25 A. Sanda Mucic.

Page 16109

1 Q. You are the daughter of Mr. Mucic, the

2 defendant in this case?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us how old you are, please?

5 A. I am 19.

6 Q. You now live in Vienna?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How long have you lived there?

9 A. Six years.

10 Q. I want you to go back, please, in your mind

11 to the time when you were a child living with your

12 father and your mother in the Konjic area. How do you

13 remember your childhood? Was it happy, sad, or can you

14 explain it in your own words, please?

15 A. I had a very happy childhood.

16 Q. I think you have a brother; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is he older or younger than you?

19 A. He is two years older.

20 Q. As a family group, how would you describe the

21 situation at home? It can be described, I suspect, in

22 many ways, but in your own words, how would you

23 describe it?

24 A. I was very happy and content living with my

25 family.

Page 16110

1 Q. All fathers have to discipline their children

2 from time to time. Describe, please, how your father

3 treated you. First of all, when you were a young

4 child, before you were a teenager, how did he behave

5 towards you?

6 A. He was a very quiet person. He never yelled

7 at me. He always talked to me, as far as I can recall.

8 Q. When you became a teenager, and I think all

9 of us who have teenage children know that sometimes

10 those can be difficult years, but what was his attitude

11 towards you in your early and middle teens?

12 A. He's a very good father, and he's a good

13 companion. I could talk to him about everything. He

14 always provided me with good advice, and I know that he

15 always showed me the right way.

16 Q. You sound as if you speak of him almost as a

17 friend, as well as a father; is that a fair inference

18 to draw?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, your father and your mother are

21 divorced. We've heard that in evidence. When were

22 they divorced?

23 A. They divorced while we were in Konjic the

24 first time, and then for awhile, we lived together in

25 Vienna. I think it was in 1993 or 1994 that they

Page 16111

1 divorced again, kind of.

2 Q. During the time that you were living together

3 as a family, before whatever difficulties led to the

4 divorce, how did he treat your mother, in your own

5 view, not from what other people have said to you, but

6 from your own observations?

7 A. He was always a very quiet person, and he was

8 always good to my mother. He never spoke bad about her

9 to us, nor did he quarrel with her in front of us. I

10 never heard them quarrel.

11 Q. This may be a difficult question, but can you

12 allocate these feelings to yourself: Who did you feel

13 closer to, your mother or your father?

14 A. I was close to my mother as well, but I think

15 I was closer to my father. I lived with him for the

16 last couple of years, and he gave me all of the

17 advice. He was providing for my education.

18 Q. As far as you could observe, as a member of

19 the family, was it the same with your brother? Did he

20 treat your brother in the same sort of way that he

21 treated you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was the relationship with your mother more or

24 less difficult in terms of discipline and intervention,

25 that is, more or less difficult than the relationship

Page 16112

1 with your father?

2 A. She was a little bit stricter, but my father

3 never allowed her to really yell at us or to hit us or

4 anything like that.

5 Q. Would it be fair to draw the inference from

6 that last answer that he was protective toward you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Obviously, your father has been in custody

9 for some time now, and you are living in Vienna.

10 What's the nature of your contact with him at the

11 moment?

12 A. We talk quite frequently, and I feel very --

13 it's very difficult for me to be without him, but we

14 still get along quite well.

15 Q. Is he still a source of advice and

16 inspiration to you?

17 A. Yes. I still receive advice from him, and I

18 know that he is giving me good advice.

19 Q. Now, we've heard in evidence that your father

20 had business in Austria but regularly came home. I

21 think the evidence was that he came home virtually

22 every weekend. Does that accord with your

23 recollection?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I think he was also paying money for your

Page 16113

1 education; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, of course.

3 Q. I want you now, please, to speak purely from

4 your own observations. Don't tell the Court anything

5 anyone else may have told you or things you overheard,

6 but just from your own observations. We've heard your

7 father had a group of friends from different cultural

8 and religious backgrounds. Did you, yourself, ever see

9 him exhibit signs of hostility towards anybody on the

10 basis that they were of a different ethnic or religious

11 background to himself?

12 A. I never experienced him say anything like

13 that. He had a very wide circle of friends who very

14 frequently visited us.

15 Q. Has that affected the way that you treat

16 people from different religious or ethnic backgrounds?

17 A. No. It did not influence me. We have very

18 different faiths in our family, and they all get along

19 quite well.

20 Q. We've heard about him having a circle of

21 friends from different backgrounds, and I'm not going

22 to repeat that, but can you just think of examples as

23 to how he assisted or helped people who were from a

24 different ethnic or religious background to himself?

25 A. He helped a number of people. I was still

Page 16114

1 very small when we were leaving in Konjic, and he had a

2 lot of friends. It was in different ways. Sometimes

3 it was in money, sometimes it was in goods, whatever

4 people asked of him.

5 Q. After your mother and father had divorced,

6 did they maintain or do they maintain any contact

7 still?

8 A. They had separated, and they would

9 occasionally talk to each other, not too often. They

10 both were working. Regardless of the fact that they

11 had been separated, he still helped her, because in the

12 beginning, she did not work.

13 Q. After your mother left, after the separation

14 was complete, the second separation, where were you

15 living at that time?

16 A. At that time, I lived with my brother and my

17 father.

18 Q. During the time that you were living together

19 with your brother and your father, but your mother had

20 gone, was there any occasion when he tried to influence

21 you in any way as to how you should view your mother or

22 say anything derogatory or bad about her?

23 A. No. He always said -- he said, "Even though

24 we separated, that doesn't mean that you have to

25 separate from your mother. She's still your mother.

Page 16115

1 You should continue to visit with her." So he never

2 spoke badly about her or tried to influence us in that

3 way.

4 Q. Again, drawing purely from your own

5 observations and your own experiences, please, have you

6 ever seen or heard your father do anything which was a

7 violent or vengeful occasion when you, perhaps, were

8 surprised or concerned about what he was doing?

9 A. No.

10 Q. I'm going to ask you a question which I've

11 asked of other witnesses, and it's going to be

12 difficult for you as a daughter to write it, but do

13 your best. Instead of being his daughter, imagine you

14 are giving your father a reference, that you are his

15 boss at work, and in a few lines you had to describe

16 his character and nature to someone who didn't know him

17 as a person. How would you describe him?

18 A. I would describe him as a very good person,

19 as a reasonable man, as an industrious person.

20 Q. For instance, if he were applying for a job

21 where you had to be able to trust someone to be honest

22 with money and in his dealings with people, would you

23 feel that you could give him such a reference?

24 A. (Nods)

25 Q. You nod. For the record, I would draw the

Page 16116

1 inference and say "yes."

2 MR. MORRISON: Thank you very much, indeed.

3 I have no further questions for this witness.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination of

5 this witness?

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: The Defence of Mr. Delalic

7 has no questions of this witness.

8 MR. KARABDIC: The Defence of Mr. Delic has

9 no questions of this witness.

10 MS. BOLER: We have no questions, Your

11 Honour.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have the Prosecution any

13 questions for her?

14 MR. NIEMANN: No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

16 MR. MORRISON: Thank you very much, Miss

17 Mucic.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are discharged.

19 (The witness withdrew)

20 MR. MORRISON: Your Honours, that concludes

21 the oral evidence that the Defence intend to call on

22 behalf of Mr. Mucic. There are going to be a number of

23 oral submissions. They are based upon the written

24 submissions, but during the course of the hearing since

25 those submissions were written, a number of addenda

Page 16117

1 have emerged, but I'm not going to make those oral

2 submissions now. I will wait for the opportunity for

3 final submissions. They are going to be short and as

4 concise as possible.

5 Whilst I'm on my feet, may I respectfully ask

6 of the Court that Mr. Mucic be excused from his

7 attendance tomorrow? It's for this reason: Obviously,

8 a number of people who he has not seen for a long time

9 have come to this area, and it's going to be his only

10 opportunity to see them as visitors to the prison. He

11 will, of course, still be represented in court. May I

12 ask Your Honours' leave that he not attend court

13 tomorrow so that he can see those people?

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't know whether

15 that assures that you represent him in his absence.

16 MR. MORRISON: Yes. I will certainly be here

17 to represent him in his absence and to look after his

18 interests, as, of course, will Madam Buturovic.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He can be excused, as

20 long as he is represented. It does not mean he is

21 giving up his right to be present.

22 MR. MORRISON: It's his decision, of course,

23 at the end of the day, but he is giving up his rights

24 and, as such, he must rely upon his counsel to

25 represent him. He, of course, could have no objection

Page 16118

1 if something happened in his absence, because he has

2 voluntarily waived his rights.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He can be excused,

4 Mr. Morrison.

5 MR. MORRISON: Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, please?

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. As

8 you know, in our written submission, we proposed 11

9 witnesses to be heard. However, because the Prosecutor

10 has accepted the authenticity of a number of documents,

11 we waived the right to call four witnesses. Mira

12 Busalic was also on the list of our witnesses. Because

13 of a surgery that she is going to have in Konjic, she

14 couldn't come, so we are submitting her written

15 statement. Therefore, we will be calling six

16 witnesses.

17 Before I call the first witness, since the

18 Prosecutor has agreed as to the authenticity of the

19 documents, I would kindly ask that the originals of

20 these documents be made part of the record, that they

21 be marked for identification, and I'm tendering them

22 into evidence.

23 I would now kindly ask the assistance of the

24 usher and the registrar so that the evidence --

25 MR. NIEMANN: I believe there's a problem,

Page 16119

1 Your Honour, because it may be that we have agreed to

2 this, but we were shown some documents this morning.

3 Maybe I could just see them before they are tendered so

4 that I can check them out.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: No. I'm not referring to any

6 piece of evidence that you saw this morning. I'm going

7 to hand in every original of this material. The first

8 one is the information regarding the criminal record of

9 Zejnil Delalic in Germany, that is, that he has no

10 criminal record in Germany. Then the next piece is the

11 same type of document from Konjic, Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina. Then there is a document from Vienna

13 testifying to his involvement and engagement in

14 sports. Then there's a document from Vienna speaking

15 about his humanitarian efforts, and also a document

16 from Konjic dated the 5th of October, 1998 that was

17 compiled for the purposes of the International

18 Tribunal.

19 This is part of our written submission, and

20 the Prosecutor has stated his position about these

21 documents on the first day of the trial.

22 I would now kindly ask that these documents

23 be tendered into evidence, of course, that they be

24 first marked for identification. I kindly ask the

25 Court to accept these documents as evidence in this

Page 16120

1 case.

2 Could you please tell me the numbers for the

3 purpose of identification and also the numbers for the

4 purpose of admission?

5 THE REGISTRAR: This is D191/1, and then

6 D192/1, D193/1, D194/1, D195/1. So D191/1, D192/1,

7 D193/1, D194/1, D195/1.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Have these documents been

9 admitted by the Court?

10 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Niemann just wanted to have a

11 look at these documents.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Pass them on to the

13 Prosecution so that they can see what they are

14 admitting. I hear it is being admitted by concession,

15 by agreement.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise. I thought that

17 Ms. McHenry had confirmed that these are the documents

18 which are part of the written submission and in respect

19 of which she has already stated her position.

20 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. I have no objection to

21 this document, Your Honour, which is 191/1. I have no

22 objection to 192/1, Your Honour. I have no objection

23 to 193/1, Your Honour. I have no objection to 194/1,

24 Your Honour. I have no objection to 195/1. Thank you,

25 Your Honours.

Page 16121

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Are these

2 documents, therefore, admitted?


4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much. May I

5 now proceed with my first witness, Alija Buturovic?

6 (The witness entered court)

7 THE USHER: Please remain standing.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly swear the

9 witness.

10 THE USHER: Could you read this out?

11 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

12 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

13 truth.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may take your seat,

15 please.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I begin, Your Honours?

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.


19 Examined by Ms. Residovic:

20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Buturovic.

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. Could you please introduce yourself by

23 stating your full name and surname to this honourable

24 Chamber?

25 A. My name is Alija Buturovic. I was born on

Page 16122

1 the 17th of September, 1946 in Sejenice in the

2 municipality of Konjic.

3 Q. What is your ethnic background?

4 A. I'm a Bosniak Muslim by nationality, and I'm

5 a national of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 Q. What is your occupation? I'm a teacher of

7 geography, and currently I'm the head of an institution

8 that is involved with public work in Konjic.

9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I'm sorry, Your Honours.

10 The witness's answer was "I'm a Bosniak Muslim ..." and

11 for the clarity in the transcript, it's written as a

12 question, when that was his an answer. That's on line

13 24 of page 59 of the LiveNote.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I see it, but I don't

16 see the need for the question mark. The rest of what

17 he said has been transcribed.


19 Q. Mr. Buturovic, do you know Zejnil Delalic,

20 and if you do, for how long have you known him?

21 A. I have known Mr. Zejnil Delalic since my

22 youth, since I was 16, when we went to grammar school

23 together. We spent four years in school together.

24 Q. Mr. Buturovic, do you know where Mr. Zejnil

25 Delalic lived at the time, if you know?

Page 16123

1 A. Zejnil Delalic was born and he lived in the

2 town of Ostrozac which is situated some 12 kilometres

3 south of Konjic. He lived in a large worker's family,

4 and every day he commuted to school by train. I come

5 from a peasant family myself, and I also come from a

6 large family, from a village not far from his. So we

7 come from similar families that had to struggle rather

8 hard for life.

9 Q. When you say, Mr. Buturovic, that you come

10 from a large family, what exactly do you mean? How

11 many children were there in the family of Mr. Zejnil

12 Delalic; do you know that?

13 A. I know for sure that the family had at least

14 nine members. As far as I know, there were nine of

15 them, maybe more.

16 Q. You said that the family was poor. Do you

17 know whether, at that time, at the age of 15 or 17,

18 whether Zejnil Delalic had to work for his education?

19 A. I remember Mr. Zejnil Delalic as a secondary

20 school student, and I know he couldn't buy books for

21 the school. Very often, we did really hard, physical

22 work in order to make some money because of the

23 situation. We would cut firewood, clean streets in the

24 winter, distribute all kinds of groceries to families

25 who were better off. This was the main source of

Page 16124

1 income for Mr. Zejnil Delalic and myself.

2 Q. You stated that Zejnil Delalic had to travel

3 to school by train and go back to his village and had

4 to do hard, physical work. What kind of student was he

5 at school?

6 A. I remember very well that Zejnil Delalic was

7 a very good student, and he was especially gifted in

8 humanities, history, for example, in particular,

9 geography, foreign languages, literature. I remember

10 that he was in charge of the literary section, literary

11 group, that functioned within the grammar school.

12 Q. Mr. Buturovic, after you completed your

13 secondary education in Konjic, did you continue meeting

14 Zejnil Delalic and socialising with him? If you did,

15 could you tell us when and where?

16 A. After I finished high school, I enrolled in

17 the studies at the Pedagogical Academy in Sarajevo, and

18 Mr. Zejnil Delalic became a student of the Faculty of

19 Philosophy in Sarajevo. That happened in the same year

20 that we completed our secondary education.

21 Q. Did Zejnil Delalic have to work to provide

22 money for his university education?

23 A. Yes. The problems were even greater at that

24 time. At that time, we were both members of the

25 so-called student service in Sarajevo, which is a large

Page 16125

1 university city. It has a large student population.

2 We had to look for various jobs in order to make some

3 money. Again, we were doing very hard, physical

4 labour. We were working at various construction

5 sites. We had to carry construction material, cut

6 firewood, again, various types of physical services

7 that we had to do all the time, including weekends.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Buturovic. Was there a period

9 of time when you did not see each other. If so, could

10 you tell us why that occurred?

11 A. After I completed my studies at the teacher's

12 academy, I went to Prozor to work at the local school.

13 Prozor is about 45 kilometres away from Sarajevo.

14 After he graduated from the Faculty of Philosophy,

15 Zejnil went abroad. At that moment, we, obviously,

16 stopped seeing each other. I soon learned that he

17 became involved in business and that he was quite

18 successful at that.

19 Q. Mr. Buturovic, we have here a poor, young man

20 who had to work to provide for his own education, a

21 young man who eventually became a very successful

22 professional person. Tell us, is Zejnil Delalic the

23 kind of person who forgot his friends and his country

24 when he became successful?

25 A. The break in our contact was not very long,

Page 16126

1 and Mr. Delalic, very often when he was on leave, on

2 vacation, he would come to his home country. He would

3 visit his home municipality, and we would get

4 together. We would often remember our childhood, our

5 university days. Even these brief encounters were

6 enough for me to realise that Mr. Delalic was the kind

7 of person who was ready to help his friends, to help

8 the local institutions, in all areas of social life,

9 culture, arts, social work, and so on. He was very

10 honest, very sincere about that. He was really ready

11 to help his friends and his hometown in general.

12 Q. During his youth, was Zejnil Delalic a

13 sociable man? Did he enjoy the company of other

14 people?

15 A. He was very liked in the secondary school and

16 at the university. Later on, when he would come for

17 leave from abroad, he would always express his

18 readiness to help, to assist people in various things.

19 He was very sociable, and he always liked to help his

20 friends in trouble. He would always manage to find

21 some reasonable and practical solution. In our

22 generation, the background of a person was not

23 important, I mean, his religious or ethnic background.

24 Q. You have described Mr. Delalic as a sociable

25 man. Did he have respect for all these people, for all

Page 16127

1 the people he socialised with, or did he try to impose

2 on them his opinions?

3 A. While contacting his friends and his business

4 partners, he would always treat people equally. He

5 never tried to establish himself as some kind of

6 leader. Of course, he had his opinion and his stance

7 about many things, and that was only natural, but he

8 was ready to listen to the opinion of others as well.

9 Finally, he would always come up with an acceptable

10 solution for everyone.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Buturovic. Let us go back to

12 something that you've mentioned. He said that he

13 wanted to help both his friends, his family, and his

14 former environment, in general. Do you know of any

15 specific example which illustrates that Zejnil Delalic,

16 who was a successful businessman working abroad, that

17 he also helped his hometown and his friends?

18 A. Let me tell you, his hometown, Ostrozac,

19 which is situated in a beautiful countryside, managed

20 to get a club, a sports club on that lake. This is

21 something that Zejnil Delalic helped with. He

22 organised that kind of work, and he managed to organise

23 the establishment of other sports clubs in the area.

24 Unfortunately, because of the aggression in Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina, this was not carried out to the end.

Page 16128

1 At that time, Konjic was known as a small and

2 peaceful town, which had a very intense cultural life,

3 namely, the so-called Neretva Cultural and Arts

4 Society. It had a very successful acting group which

5 performed throughout Yugoslavia and even abroad. There

6 was also a very successful choir called Djevojkes

7 Neretva, which was lead by a Russia singer, and that

8 choir travelled a lot throughout Europe.

9 When it came to providing necessary equipment

10 and necessary funds for these types of societies, it

11 was Zejnil Delalic who helped do that, either

12 personally, directly, or through his friends and

13 business relations.

14 Q. Mr. Buturovic, you said that you were

15 headmaster of a school. Did Zejnil Delalic ever help

16 your school to upgrade the level of education for the

17 students of that particular school?

18 A. Yes. I worked as the headmaster of an

19 elementary school which, according to our legislation,

20 was responsible for primary education. It was a very

21 poor village, very poor little town in the area. The

22 school had about 800 students, and it was very poorly

23 equipped. It did not have a very good library and

24 other necessary equipment.

25 When he came on one occasion, I believe it

Page 16129

1 was in 1982, he asked me whether there was anything he

2 could do for my school, and I said that there were

3 quite a few things that could be done. He wrote a

4 cheque for me, and the amount, as I remember it, was

5 something around 8.000 German marks. We used that

6 money to buy books for our library and to buy other

7 necessary equipment, including overhead projectors and

8 other teaching aids. We bought a number of very good

9 pieces of technical equipment, and thanks to this

10 technical support, our school received numerous

11 awards. It received the highest award in Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina that was given at the time. It is an award

13 called Hasim Verkic.

14 Q. Mr. Buturovic, the Court is already familiar

15 with the fact that both Konjic and Jablanica are towns

16 with mixed populations, as is often the case with the

17 majority of towns in Bosnia and Herzegovina. You come

18 from a poor area. There are not very good roads in

19 your area, not many tarmac roads.

20 Zejnil Delalic, through his involvement, did

21 he try to help the quality of life of all people,

22 regardless of their national and religious

23 backgrounds? Do you know of any specific example in

24 that regard?

25 A. I've already said that it is a very wide

Page 16130

1 geographical area, some 300 square kilometres, with

2 approximately 8.000 inhabitants. It is very poorly

3 connected with the rest of the country. At that time,

4 we had a so-called self-contribution. That was

5 something that the citizens had to vote for and sign.

6 We organised a self-contribution referendum to build a

7 road. Mr. Delalic influenced that activity, that

8 action, and it was thanks to him that the work was

9 finally completed.

10 I know of a number of other examples where he

11 helped, not only financially but in other ways as well,

12 a number of schools, public institutions, and

13 individual persons as well. The people in that area,

14 most of them are farmers, and there are not many people

15 who are employed in factories and other institutions.

16 I know that thanks to Mr. Zejnil Delalic, a number of

17 people managed to find work abroad in Western Europe,

18 and some of them are still there living quite

19 comfortable lives.

20 Q. When helping his neighbours and their

21 families from these impoverished areas, did Zejnil

22 distinguish between ethnic or religious groups as to

23 whom he would help to come abroad and help their

24 families back home?

25 A. I still have very close ties with this area,

Page 16131

1 professionally speaking. I know that there were

2 several large Croatian families whom he helped go to

3 Austria or Germany. I know Sveto Zuza who is a Serb

4 and a mason. Through Zejnil's help, he was able to go

5 abroad. Then the families Pozder, Begic, Sokolovic,

6 Sutlic, in other words, this tells you that he did not

7 distinguish between Serbs and Muslims and Croats in a

8 sense of whom he was going to help.

9 Q. Thank you. This question regards your

10 acquaintance with Mr. Delalic before the war and while

11 he was a young man. I would like to ask you now,

12 Mr. Buturovic, what you did at the time when the war

13 broke out, and, if you know, where was Mr. Zejnil

14 Delalic at the time?

15 A. In 1986, I was appointed director of the

16 Centre for Social Affairs in Konjic. It was a

17 municipal agency. I was in that duty in 1991 and 1992

18 when the war broke out, first in Croatia and then in

19 Bosnia.

20 Q. Do you know that on the eve of the war,

21 Zejnil's brother Rasim died, and do you know that

22 Zejnil came to Konjic at that time?

23 A. Yes. I was at the dzenaza of the deceased

24 brother, and I was present there in Konjic, and I know

25 that he was there.

Page 16132

1 Q. As you said that you were the director of the

2 Centre for Social Affairs, you were forced to handle a

3 large number of refugees which flooded, first, the area

4 of Konjic municipality and then the town of Konjic

5 itself. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

6 A. The war in Croatia in 1991 did affect my

7 municipality as well. In 1991, there were a

8 significant number of refugees, mostly from Eastern

9 Slavonia, Tenje, Borovo Naselje, and Vukovar. Those

10 were refugees of both Serbian and Croatian background,

11 and I was appointed the chief of the Municipal Staff

12 for refugees who came flooding from Croatia.

13 Q. At the beginning of the war, did our own

14 population come to Konjic? Did you talk to Zejnil

15 about this, and what was his position towards that

16 issue?

17 A. In early April 1992, the war in Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina started, and it also broke out in my

19 municipality. During that period, I occasionally saw

20 Mr. Delalic. These were very short meetings. I

21 continued to work with my team which had been

22 appointed. There were still Croatian and Serb

23 refugees from Eastern Slavonia. In early April,

24 refugees from Eastern Herzegovina started appearing in

25 Konjic.

Page 16133

1 When the shelling of Konjic started, that was

2 around 4 May, 1992, a large number of inhabitants of

3 the villages around Konjic came to town fleeing from

4 the aggressor and the destruction, torture, and

5 mistreatment that accompanied this attack, so that

6 thousands of refugees flooded into the town proper at

7 the beginning of this war.

8 Q. The Court is familiar with some of these

9 events, but I would like you to focus on where these

10 refugees were accommodated. Did Zejnil Delalic help in

11 this, or did you ask for any advice and any assistance

12 from him?

13 A. Since order broke down in town and chaos

14 ensued, the population was not ready for these events,

15 and the body to which I was assigned to deal with

16 refugees was trying to accommodate them as much as

17 possible, to provide them with food and shelter. As we

18 were not well prepared for this, we initially would

19 accommodate them in school buildings, in basements of

20 residential buildings, and in factories and workers's

21 dormitories. Through the president of the War

22 Presidency and the Economic Affairs officer, plus the

23 Caritas and Merhamet organisations, I sought any help I

24 could get.

25 Zejnil Delalic provided advice. He provided

Page 16134

1 advice as to the best accommodation for these people,

2 because at that time, hundreds of shells were falling

3 on Konjic. While receiving these first waves of

4 refugees, he first provided his own tea and canned food

5 from his personal stocks, as well as medicine for

6 children.

7 Q. Mr. Buturovic, in these first days of war, in

8 June, for instance, when there was not enough school

9 space or basement space, did Zejnil Delalic offer his

10 own property, his own house, for the accommodation of

11 refugees until your committee found the right

12 accommodation for them?

13 A. Since this committee was not prepared for

14 this, and there were many civilian casualties of war,

15 the health centre, which then became a war hospital and

16 which, today, is the municipal hospital, was filled

17 with the injured and the sick. Mr. Delalic offered the

18 basement of his house, and my subordinate, a colleague

19 of mine, went there on several occasions and brought

20 back some things that were needed. In the basement of

21 his house, occasionally, there were 10 to 15 people

22 from, let's say, Focaka, Gacana, or Nevesinje.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: This may be a good moment for

24 a break, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will reassemble at

Page 16135

1 2.30.

2 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.03 p.m.
























Page 16136

1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, while they are

3 getting the witness, I have two housekeeping matters.

4 One, Mr. Karabdic is currently detained somewhere else

5 and he will be here in a few minutes.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I didn't understand what

7 you've just said.

8 MR. MORAN: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I have

9 two housekeeping matters while they are getting the

10 witness. The first is Mr. Karabdic is detained taking

11 a statement from Mrs. Delic, and he shall be here in a

12 few minutes, probably. The other is that Mr. Delic's

13 wife, of course, is in town, and that's a fairly rare

14 event. He asked to be excused tomorrow so that he can

15 visit his wife. The Prosecutor has no objection to

16 it. Of course, I will be here to represent his

17 interests.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose so. Yes, he

19 could be excused.

20 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 MS. BOLER: I have one question. Have you

22 determined how long we can have in closing arguments?

23 My question was, have you determined how long we will

24 have to argue the close, tomorrow or the next day,

25 whenever that comes. In the scheduling order, it said

Page 16137

1 you would entertain brief closing arguments. I have an

2 idea of what I think that means, and I just want to

3 compare it to what --

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think we're

5 regarding them as arguments, but brief submissions to

6 argue what you have done. I thought that your

7 submission should not be more than a few minutes for

8 each closing submission.

9 MS. BOLER: Is 15 minutes too long?

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Too long for any --

11 MS. BOLER: That's fine. I'm writing it, so

12 if I just write five minutes worth, rather than

13 fifteen --

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have already written

15 what you want to say.

16 MS. BOLER: Thanks.

17 MR. NIEMANN: While we are discussing times,

18 Your Honour, I thought I might raise our position. We,

19 of course, put in our submission first and have never

20 had an opportunity to respond to the Defence's

21 submissions which were given in writing. So we will

22 take longer than 15 minutes. I don't think it would

23 take much longer than about an hour, but it would take

24 about that long, I imagine, for us to cover

25 everything.

Page 16138

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose it depends on

2 what you want to say.

3 MR. NIEMANN: I hope everything we say is

4 relevant and directly to the point, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's what I'm

6 referring to.

7 JUDGE JAN: How long will you take with your

8 witnesses?

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: I was just going to inform

10 you of this and my apologies for not having done so

11 earlier. We had indicated the times that we are going

12 to use for the testimonies of each of the witness.

13 However, I believe that we are actually going to spend

14 less time, and we will be well within the boundary of

15 two days. Only the witness who is testifying now will

16 be testifying for a lengthier period of time, but that

17 still will be within two hours. I believe that the

18 other witnesses will take considerably less, and I

19 believe that we will be done all the other witnesses by

20 tomorrow at noon, which means that we also will

21 complete the testimonies of all our witnesses within

22 one single day.

23 As to the issue of the closing remarks, if

24 the Prosecution is announcing an hour per accused, then

25 we would like it in writing so that we, ourselves,

Page 16139

1 could get prepared, and obviously not as long this

2 time.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, no. The writing of

4 submissions on the closing speeches is not necessary.

5 We asked counsel to make submissions in writing. All

6 you need do is round up whatever submissions you want

7 to make in review of the fact that you have led

8 witnesses. It's not necessary. I'm sure his one hour

9 is not in respect of each witness or in respect of each

10 accused. That's very unlikely. It might be in respect

11 of all of them.

12 You can listen to what he will say within

13 that period, and they are not unfamiliar things and

14 things which you have already led. It is evidence

15 which you have led which he is touching on. I don't

16 think he needs to indicate any such thing in writing.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours. Maybe my

18 words were not interpreted correctly. I did not say

19 that we were going to make any written submissions. We

20 just wanted to have an opportunity to address you

21 orally afterwards, even if it is within a 10-minute or

22 15-minute scope.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought so. I thought

24 that is a normal thing in proceedings of this nature.

25 You merely make closing submissions which are just

Page 16140

1 summaries of what has been said.

2 MS. BOLER: If I might just ask one more

3 question? As Ms. Residovic says that she's going to be

4 finished by tomorrow noon, then I assume that we don't

5 do these closing arguments on Friday, as we'd thought,

6 but it will be right after lunch on Thursday

7 afternoon.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will continue on with

9 that. Let's carry on with your next witness.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I please have the witness

11 Alija Buturovic recalled?

12 (The witness entered court)

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the

14 witness that he is still under oath.

15 THE REGISTRAR: I do remind you, Witness,

16 that you are still under oath.



19 Q. Mr. Buturovic, before the break, we discussed

20 how Mr. Delalic, on several occasions, helped you

21 accommodate the refugees. Mr. Buturovic, can you now

22 tell me whether this was the only big problem that the

23 town of Konjic and you had to face?

24 A. This was only one of the problems which I had

25 to deal with in the post which I had. As early as late

Page 16141

1 April and early May, there were about 15.000 refugees

2 in Konjic, and there were another 22.000 in transit,

3 which went through the so-called salvation road to

4 Dalmacija, so this was one of the problems. Another

5 problem was the accommodation and reception of these

6 refugees, which was very difficult due to the constant

7 shelling of the town. The residential structures,

8 apartment blocks, private houses, school buildings, and

9 factories were all on fire and affected. It was a very

10 complicated situation.

11 With respect to the accommodation of

12 refugees, a further problem posed was the fact that

13 Konjic did not have a single hotel. It only had a

14 small motel with about 40 beds, so that was the second

15 problem.

16 The third problem was a very severe lack of

17 food stuffs and medicine. The entire population,

18 regardless of their social status, within one month

19 were left without any reserves in food, in money, or

20 all other needs.

21 Q. In these severe shortages, you still took

22 care of the civilian population. Can you tell me

23 whether Zejnil Delalic, in this period of April through

24 June and through the summer of 1992, also helped you

25 with his private means, in other words, with his

Page 16142

1 personal contributions, in order to resolve these

2 problems? If he did so, can you please say how he did

3 it?

4 A. As the president of this municipal body, I

5 was in charge of the accommodation and providing food.

6 I was pressured to constantly work in great haste in

7 order to keep abreast with the situation. My

8 colleagues and I, we all had to coordinate with the

9 humanitarian organisations in town. I personally went

10 to the Lenna Eloka (phoen) in Split to the president of

11 Merhamet.

12 Since Zejnil Delalic had a wide circle of

13 associates and friends outside the former Yugoslavia, I

14 asked him to help us get in touch with them. From his

15 personal reserves, we, several times, received canned

16 food, tea, medicine, and a colleague of mine did this.

17 There were also individuals who reported there,

18 regardless of what ethnic background they were from.

19 Q. You mentioned that the town was heavily

20 shelled. What were the consequences of this and did

21 you have any communications with Mr. Delalic in that

22 regard? What was his position on this?

23 A. Because of this situation, which was very

24 difficult, I sought advice from anyone that I thought

25 could help us, either by advice or by some concrete

Page 16143

1 measures. Zejnil Delalic would come up with a number

2 of suggestions in passing, as it were, especially after

3 the siege of Bradina was lifted.

4 Following that event, we talked and I told

5 him that we were facing a humanitarian catastrophy in

6 Konjic, that we had no way out, and I recall his words,

7 he said, "My comrade, Alija, we are all in a very

8 difficult situation, but the Serbs in Donje Selo are in

9 the worst situation."

10 I am mentioning this because of this shelling

11 in Konjic. Because of the severe shortages, an

12 anti-Serb feeling or atmosphere was growing in

13 Konjic. This was manifested in different ways in the

14 municipality. However, I believe that my colleague,

15 myself, and Mr. Delalic agreed on this, and we acted

16 accordingly.

17 Q. The words you have just quoted and which you

18 remember which Mr. Delalic told you in a conversation,

19 that everybody was in a difficult situation, but the

20 Serbs in Donje Selo were in a worse situation, does

21 that suggest to you and did he urge you to pay equal

22 attention to all sides, to all people affected in the

23 area?

24 A. In the first months of the war, practically

25 no humanitarian organisation reached Konjic. Most of

Page 16144

1 these humanitarian convoys went to Sarajevo and Central

2 Bosnia. At first, the supplies for the population were

3 certain symbolic humanitarian organisations of Muslims

4 called Merhamet, and Caritas, a Croatian, that is,

5 Catholic organisation. This aid could not have been

6 fully distributed to everybody who was in need.

7 The War Presidency, at that time, instructed

8 us to set up criteria for the distribution of aid, and

9 my team worked on that. They would provide lists of

10 people and needs, let's say, a quarter kilo of flour or

11 a quart of oil, and it went to Merhamet, Caritas, and

12 to the Red Cross. We had people who would come there,

13 and we had to ask the police to keep order.

14 JUDGE JAN: Ask him to give an answer to the

15 question you have put. He has not answered that

16 question but given a lengthy explanation to other

17 matters which we are not interested in.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is precisely what I was

19 trying to suggest to the witness.

20 Q. Mr. Buturovic, please, my question to you

21 was: In light of everything you just told us, did

22 Zejnil Delalic, in this conversation, tell you what his

23 position was, whether these Serbs in Donje Selo should

24 be treated in the same way, using the same criteria, as

25 everybody else?

Page 16145

1 A. Yes. He explicitly told me, and we had a

2 brief consultation on this issue, and he said, not only

3 the Serbs, but all other non-Muslim population was

4 treated in the exact same way, by the same criteria,

5 from the first day of the war until today. This is the

6 policy that has been kept and maintained throughout.

7 Q. Mr. Buturovic, you said that you were

8 president of the Municipal Staff for refugees. In this

9 staff, did you have coordinators who coordinated with

10 other humanitarian organisations in town?

11 A. Yes. Because of the complicated situation,

12 this staff was renamed into a coordinating board for

13 relocation of refugees and the reception and

14 distribution of humanitarian aid. This body received

15 additional duties and tasks, and there were

16 coordinators who were coordinating between us and the

17 local humanitarian organisation on the ground.

18 Q. Mr. Buturovic, before the war, the population

19 in Konjic was mixed, and in 1992, this was the case

20 also. What was the composition of your coordination

21 board by ethnic background, and I mean in Konjic in

22 1992?

23 A. I was the president of the coordinating

24 board, and I believe that there were seven or eight

25 additional members of the board. I know that Husein

Page 16146

1 Dzambas represented Merhamet. Fra Drago Colak

2 represented Caritas. The Konjic Hospital was

3 represented by Dr. Marijan Mic. The Red Cross was

4 represented by --

5 Q. Could you just tell us what ethnic background

6 these members were from? Were they all from one ethnic

7 group or from different ones?

8 A. The board was multi-ethnic. There were

9 Muslims, Croats, and Serbs represented in it.

10 Q. Mr. Buturovic, a moment ago you said that the

11 international organisations did not, for awhile,

12 respond to this humanitarian catastrophy in Konjic.

13 Can you tell us, when did the first convoy of an

14 international organisation with supplies reach the town

15 and what did they bring?

16 A. The first convoy, which was an UNHCR convoy,

17 entered Konjic on the 18th of August, 1992. Again, due

18 to shelling, it took it six hours to get in and

19 unload. It was a small convoy which brought about 60

20 tons worth of supplies, 30 tons out of which were

21 flour, and the rest were beans, some salt, and there

22 was tomato puree. This was a symbolic shipment which

23 reached this town to just alleviate the situation and

24 prevent the worst.

25 Q. Mr. Buturovic, is that when the first

Page 16147

1 blankets also reached town?

2 A. I do not recall that they arrived with that

3 shipment.

4 Q. Mr. Buturovic --

5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I can't follow

6 where this is leading us. I can understand, perhaps,

7 if Mr. Buturovic was to be sentenced, that this may

8 have some relevance, but unless it is going to be

9 brought together and we're going to be shown something

10 at the end, at this stage, I fail to see what the

11 relevance is of shipments of blankets and tomato puree

12 arriving in Konjic.

13 JUDGE JAN: And the connection of Mr. Delalic

14 to these supplies. We're only concerned with Zejnil

15 Delalic, not how the relief supplies reached Konjic.

16 We're more interested in the role of Mr. Zejnil

17 Delalic. We have evidence about the shortages there.

18 We're not interested in all that. We want to know the

19 role played by Mr. Zejnil Delalic in these things.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: I understand, Your Honours.

21 I am absolutely convinced what the witness is talking

22 about. I am surprised that the Prosecution seems not

23 to be, because we are talking about the circumstances

24 in which these criminal offences actually occurred,

25 that is, the circumstances and the living conditions in

Page 16148

1 Konjic at the relevant time.

2 If we look at the Tadic judgement, and it is,

3 again, something that was brought up yesterday with

4 Professor Tomic, I believe that it is pertinent to hear

5 a witness who has facts about the situation and the

6 role of Mr. Delalic in alleviating this situation.

7 This was the purpose of these questions, in other

8 words, the circumstances, the broader circumstances in

9 which these criminal offences took place and which are

10 all charged in the indictment.

11 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours please, I have

12 two responses to that. One is the problem I'm having

13 in seeing how it's related to Mr. Delalic. The second

14 problem I have is, of course, if counsel sees that this

15 is an important mitigating issue and wants to raise it,

16 that's, by all means, up to her to do so, as long as

17 Your Honours consider that to be the case. But, of

18 course, it broadens the whole issue and makes my need

19 to cross-examine much more wider than I would have

20 otherwise done in relation to pure mitigation issues,

21 because I'm afraid it's gone much wider than what would

22 ordinarily be required simply to establish mitigation.

23 As for the Tadic case, the general

24 circumstances surrounding Kozarac and Prijedor at the

25 time were matters that were raised during the course of

Page 16149

1 the trial and not in mitigation.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, the issue of

3 the general social conditions and issues have been

4 matters which, all along in this trial, have been

5 emphasised and referred to as relevant points and such

6 evidence might have been given. But what is important

7 in this sequence now is the role of Delalic relating to

8 mitigation of possible guilt against him. So I don't

9 really see how these general conditions are matters

10 which could be relevant. These are general

11 conditions. These are not matters related to his own

12 activity, and I don't think you need to go that far.

13 Because if we are picking on all the general social

14 conditions in a place, there can be no limits to what

15 we can refer to.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I

17 just want to remind you that the Prosecutor's witness

18 Miro Golubovic spoke about the flour that was included

19 in the convoy to Donje Selo, and I'm going to ask this

20 witness about that particular issue.

21 Q. On the 18th of August when that convoy

22 arrived, did you, at that time, that is, the middle of

23 August, discuss this issue with Zejnil Delalic, since

24 you were influenced by certain opinions at the time

25 that the Serbs should be treated in a different way?

Page 16150

1 A. Prior to the arrival of the convoy which took

2 place on the 18th of August, I had several

3 opportunities to meet Zejnil Delalic. There was the

4 manifestation of oath taking in Celebici, and I was

5 glad to hear that he was coming. On that occasion, he

6 told me, "Alija, please, do not forget the Serbs from

7 Donje Selo."

8 Q. Thank you. Please go on.

9 A. I had serious problems with my team. I had

10 to convince them that a certain amount of food should

11 also be distributed to the refugees in Donje Selo.

12 From that first convoy, UNHCR convoy, we took certain

13 amounts, a certain quantity of flour for them. The

14 delivery note was signed by Mr. Zoran Cerkez, and he

15 took the supplies to Donje Selo.

16 Q. In relation to this particular conversation

17 and everything that you have stated about Zejnil

18 Delalic in this regard, Mr. Buturovic, what do you

19 think? Throughout that period, throughout the war, did

20 Zejnil Delalic continue to behave the same way? Did he

21 remain the same kind of person? Did he retain the same

22 type of attitude towards other people, and did he still

23 sympathise with everyone?

24 A. My personal opinion, and I feel very strong

25 about it, is that Zejnil Delalic remained the same

Page 16151

1 person as he was before the war. He sympathised with

2 everybody else's suffering the same way, and this can

3 be illustrated with several examples. He acted

4 accordingly in several very specific occasions.

5 Q. To the extent that you know Mr. Zejnil

6 Delalic, do you think that he was able to do any harm

7 to any man?

8 A. I'm strongly convinced that he was unable to

9 do so.

10 Q. Such a man who, in spite of the war

11 conditions and adverse circumstances which led to

12 strong anti-Serb feelings in the area, did that man,

13 who you know very well, agree with any other type of

14 activity, activity that was carried out by some third

15 persons who wished to harm Serbs or any other people in

16 the area?

17 A. I'm firmly convinced that he never tried to

18 impose his opinion on anyone else, and I believe that

19 he was sensitised to the problems at that time. He was

20 a tolerant person and he could listen to others. When

21 he told me about the situation in Donje Selo and the

22 flour that was needed, he said, "Alija, I know you

23 might have a lot of problems because of that," and,

24 indeed, I did have them, and I was severely criticised

25 both by the war presidency and the coordination board

Page 16152

1 because I first sent supplies to Donje Selo, and only

2 later on to refugee centres and the head centre in

3 Konjic, which, at the time, was crowded with patients

4 and wounded persons. I did that before I distributed

5 aid to any other social institution in the area, and I

6 believe that it was the right thing to do at the time,

7 and I believe I did the right thing.

8 Q. The Court is already familiar with the fact

9 that in the month of November, Mr. Delalic left the

10 town of Konjic. You probably know that he was a victim

11 of very intense propaganda, but this is not something

12 I'm going to ask you about. I would like to know

13 whether you have any knowledge of Mr. Zejnil Delalic

14 continuing to help the population of Konjic in general,

15 regardless of their ethnic or religious background. If

16 you know of any such activity, could you explain to us

17 how is it that you know?

18 A. I know several examples of Mr. Delalic

19 helping other people. Certain individuals were able to

20 leave the area, certain were not. He helped with

21 providing accommodation of all victims of the war,

22 people who were severely wounded or sick people. At

23 the beginning when Konjic was under a complete

24 blockade, when it was not possible to receive any food

25 or any supplies, the local commune organised an

Page 16153

1 alternative way of bringing supplies into the town, by

2 parachuting. My colleague was a member of the

3 committee that was in charge of that, and I was once

4 told that the supplies that were, in this way, brought

5 to town, very often brought the titled inscription,

6 "The assistance provided by Mr. Zejnil Delalic."

7 Q. After all that you have said about Mr. Zejnil

8 Delalic, if you had to describe his personality in a

9 few words, what would you say? What kind of person is

10 Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

11 A. In short, I would say that he's a highly

12 moral, ethical person, that he's humane, that he's

13 cosmopolitan. Once again, let me state that I could

14 never accept that he's the man who ever distinguished,

15 on the grounds of ethnicity, nationality, or anything

16 else, when it comes to the population of our town, the

17 town of Konjic.

18 Q. Mr. Buturovic, in view of your knowledge of

19 the situation in Konjic at that time and later on, I

20 wish to ask you a few more questions. You are still

21 acting as the head of the institution for social work.

22 Are you involved in any activities relating to the

23 return of refugees to the town of Konjic?

24 A. The public institution that is involved with

25 social work in Konjic deals with problems such as child

Page 16154

1 protection, juvenile delinquency, family treatment.

2 Q. Could you please answer my question

3 precisely?

4 A. Ever since the beginning when it was

5 created --

6 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, how could this

7 be, in any way, relevant, to mitigation, I fail to see,

8 Your Honours. I mean, this has nothing to do with

9 mitigation of Mr. Delalic.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I really fail

11 to understand my learned colleague. He claims in his

12 written submission that refugees cannot return to

13 Konjic. I fail to see what that has to do with the

14 mitigation of anyone, and this is what Mr. Niemann

15 wrote in his written submission. Here is the man who

16 is in a position to tell us whether anyone is coming

17 back to Konjic, whether the Serbs are coming back to

18 Konjic and what is happening to them. Are these not

19 mitigating circumstances for everyone, including my

20 client?

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the relevance of

22 the question of what is being said as to what evidence

23 you want to lead? It's not that he hasn't written

24 certain things. He might have written them, but what

25 is that relevance to what you intend to lead your

Page 16155

1 evidence?

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: The fact that Konjic is an

3 open town where Serbs are returning, and they are

4 returning to Zejnil Delalic's house, and it has

5 definitely something to do with Zejnil Delalic, but it

6 also goes to the general conditions in this area.

7 People are coming back, including those who spent some

8 time in the prison in Celebici. I'm also referring to

9 Petko Gruvac. His family has also submitted an

10 application to come back to Konjic. I would like that

11 this witness be given an opportunity to provide you

12 with the truthful information. We're trying,

13 endeavouring, to provide this Court with relevant and

14 accurate information which is important for the

15 consequences of the alleged criminal offences. This is

16 something that is very important when it comes to

17 determining the appropriate sentence and can be

18 considered as mitigating circumstances.

19 MR. NIEMANN: Provided, Your Honours, that we

20 can rebut this by producing evidence from the SFOR,

21 from the International Community, from the current

22 policy of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, who are

23 all actively involved in encouraging people to come

24 back to different parts of the country which have been

25 unsettled, and provided, of course, that it can be

Page 16156

1 shown that the people returning to the Konjic area at

2 the moment are doing so directly as a result of

3 something that Mr. Delalic did. If that's established,

4 then, of course, I will, gladly, withdraw my

5 objection. There's just an assumption here, this huge

6 leap of an assumption, that all these people are coming

7 back now because Mr. Delalic's did something for their

8 benefit. I submit, Your Honour, that there are a whole

9 lot of things out there that have caused them to come

10 back and they have precious little to do with

11 Mr. Delalic.

12 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, I think I know what

13 is coming, the evidence that she wants to present is.

14 Mr. Niemann presented to the Trial Chamber, in

15 aggravation of punishment, a written statement by

16 Dr. Petko Gruvac that makes certain factual allegations

17 that Mr. Niemann has presented to this Trial Chamber as

18 statements of the truth, in aggravation of punishment.

19 I believe that Mrs. Residovic may have in her

20 possession, documentation to show, to at least cast

21 doubt on the credibility of the factual statements that

22 were presented to the Trial Chamber by the Prosecutor

23 in aggravation. I think that that's highly relevant.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, the view I

25 hold, and I suppose my colleagues also do, is there is

Page 16157

1 very little that should be excluded in aggravation or

2 in mitigation, except if it is inadmissible. If

3 evidence could be admitted to show either way, I think

4 it should be admitted. It depends, of course, in

5 examining, that you find that it is irrelevant for the

6 purposes which it was introduced. I think you could

7 lead the evidence and leave us to determine whether it

8 is material for the purposes of mitigation or

9 aggravation.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours, and I will

11 kindly ask you to let me continue, because I'm to deal

12 with an issue, an allegation having to do with ethnic

13 cleansing that is contained in the submission of the

14 Prosecutor. Thank you.

15 Q. Mr. Buturovic, would you please try to answer

16 my questions briefly and precisely. I have just a few

17 more questions for you. Tell us, Mr. Buturovic, do you

18 have a database available at your institute regarding

19 the movement of the refugees in Konjic, refugees and

20 displaced persons?

21 A. Yes, we do.

22 Q. How many refugees from other areas of the

23 Republic still reside in Konjic?

24 A. There is over 8.000 displaced persons still

25 living in Konjic.

Page 16158

1 Q. You stayed in Konjic throughout the war. You

2 are in a position to tell us, Mr. Buturovic, whether

3 anyone expelled by force from residential areas, your

4 friends, Serbs, and if they left the town, do you know

5 in what manner they did so?

6 A. We have to go back to the year 1992 and the

7 month of April. The majority of Serbs, upon the

8 invitation, upon an appeal of the Serb Democratic

9 Party, left the town of Konjic and went to a nearby

10 area where they established a so-called Serbian

11 municipality of Konjic. A large number of Croats and

12 Muslims also left the town at the time because of the

13 war, because they were fearful for their lives. So one

14 cannot speak about expulsions by force.

15 Q. Mr. Buturovic, were there any Serbs who

16 stayed in the town of Konjic and who endured the same

17 difficult situation that you did?

18 A. Yes. There were quite a few of them who

19 stayed throughout the war, and they shared, with us,

20 the burden of the war, the good things and the bad

21 things. These people are still residing in Konjic.

22 Q. Let us go back to 1992 and maybe even later.

23 Were there any Serbs who held key positions in the town

24 of Konjic at that time?

25 A. I can recall a certain number of Serbs,

Page 16159

1 including the example of a very good friend of mine,

2 Mr. Dragan Andric, who held a very high rank in the

3 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. He has stayed in

4 Konjic, and he's a very successful businessman today.

5 I can give you another example, that of Mr. Nedeljko

6 Stojanovic, who was the director of the electrical

7 company in town, and he is still employed with the same

8 company. He is a very respectable citizen. He is a

9 member of the group that was established by the

10 municipal counsel, and they are in charge of

11 humanitarian projects in the town. They are

12 coordinating various humanitarian projects in Konjic.

13 Further on, in my own institution, there is

14 Mr. Milutin Milosevic, a professor of sociology, who

15 has spent the entire war in Konjic. Mr. Mirko Mirovic

16 is the director of the largest elementary school in

17 Konjic which has 2.000 students. He is still living in

18 Konjic, and he was in Konjic throughout the war. I can

19 think of countless other examples.

20 Q. I'm sure you can, Mr. Buturovic, but I

21 believe that this is enough for the Court. Since you

22 probably know, as a citizen of Konjic, that some Serbs

23 were detained in the prison in Celebici, could you tell

24 us, do you know whether any of these detainees, after

25 they were released from Celebici, did they stay and

Page 16160

1 live with you in Konjic throughout the war?

2 A. One part of them, that is, some of the

3 inmates in Celebici, left, and I know of a number of

4 them who have stayed in Konjic. I know, for example,

5 Mirko Mrkajic who is working for a very respectable

6 organisation that is in charge of the return of

7 refugees to Konjic. I know, for example, Zarko Kulas

8 who runs a very successful shop in Konjic. It's an

9 Adidas shop and he has a large number of employees. I

10 also know Mirko Kuljanin from the town of Brdjani, who

11 is a farmer, and he used to be a farmer before the

12 war. He has a lot of sheep and pigs. He has a large

13 farm.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Buturovic. I think this will

15 be enough. You don't have to remember every single one

16 of them.

17 Mr. Buturovic, the people who left Konjic

18 through various ways, as refugees, through exchanges

19 and so on, whether these people were of Serbian

20 nationality, do you know whether they are coming back

21 to Konjic?

22 A. There has been a very intensive process of

23 return in Konjic that's been going on for quite awhile,

24 not only Serbs, but it also involves Croats and Muslims

25 who, for various reasons, left the town. This

Page 16161

1 information can be found in our database at the

2 institution where I work. I know, for example, that

3 over 300 Serb families, that is, some 900 persons, have

4 registered with the municipality board, for return,

5 which is involved in providing accommodation and

6 returning property and so on. I know of 22 or 50

7 cases, 50 families that have come back.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you linking this

9 evidence with any contribution by Delalic in any of his

10 activities, the evidence now being led?

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: The mitigating circumstances

12 in their entirety are balanced with the totality of

13 aggravating circumstances that have been offered by the

14 Prosecution. My next question relates to other

15 allegations of the Prosecution, namely, that the

16 property of these people has been confiscated and

17 similar allegations. These allegations have been

18 mentioned in the case of the Prosecutor, and they have

19 been labelled as aggravating circumstances, but I'm

20 afraid they are not correct.

21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I think the whole

22 point is being missed here. There is a disjunction

23 between people leaving the town because of the

24 circumstances which we allege were created by these

25 accused, and them coming back now. I mean, if it could

Page 16162

1 be shown that the people coming back now are doing so

2 because of something which Mr. Delalic or the other

3 accused did, then, perhaps, there may be some

4 relevance, but we all know that there are a whole host

5 of other reasons, primarily the intervention of the

6 International Community, which is causing these people

7 to come back. For these people coming back, to be

8 attributed in this way to Mr. Delalic, without any

9 evidence at all that that's the case, Your Honours,

10 must be objectionable.


12 Q. Mr. Buturovic, was the town of Konjic the

13 first town to receive the title of an open city because

14 of its multi-ethnic character to which Mr. Zejnil

15 Delalic made his contribution?

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think this is

17 mitigating factors to your client, then you may not

18 lead any evidence towards that. If you talk about a

19 general situation, which is the normal restoration of

20 peace, when something has happened takes place, and

21 this is what is happening here. It's not because any

22 of the accused persons contributed to what is

23 happening.

24 Mitigating factors are matters which have

25 been contributed by these persons themselves. I don't

Page 16163

1 see what you're trying to show, because that was why I

2 asked you whether the evidence which Mr. Buturovic was

3 giving has any relationship with the contribution of

4 Delalic, but you are still talking about general

5 conditions which are happening because of the

6 International Community's attitude towards restoration

7 of peace and everything else.


9 Q. Mr. Buturovic --

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mr. Buturovic, do you know that in 1992, when

12 you met with Mr. Zejnil Delalic occasionally, do you

13 know whether he continued seeing all his friends,

14 regardless of their ethnic background?

15 A. Yes, he did.

16 Q. You stated that your friend, Dragan Andric,

17 you mentioned Dragan Andric, was he also a friend of

18 Mr. Zejnil Delalic in 1992?

19 A. Yes, he was.

20 Q. In the brief encounters in his house in 1992,

21 could you come across members of all ethnic

22 communities?

23 A. Yes, I could.

24 Q. Do you know what ethnic background was the

25 secretary, that is, the house mistress of his house in

Page 16164

1 1992?

2 A. It was Mrs. Mira Pusalic, and she's a Croat

3 by nationality.

4 Q. Do you know whether, in 1992, Zejnil Delalic

5 worked towards the multi-ethnic aspect of the town of

6 Konjic? Was his example followed?

7 A. Yes. I have to say that Konjic was observed

8 by the members of the International Community

9 throughout the war, and the distribution of

10 humanitarian aid was closely monitored. When the

11 International Community proclaimed Konjic as an open

12 city, it, indeed, took place. It took place on the 1st

13 of July, 1997, and Mr. Zejnil Delalic definitely

14 contributed to Konjic being proclaimed the first open

15 city in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16 Q. Mr. Buturovic, do you know what ethnic

17 background Mr. Delalic's wife is. It's Gordana and she

18 is from Belgrade, and I presume that she's a Serb. Did

19 she come to Konjic? Did she come to Konjic recently

20 and did she stay at the family house?

21 A. I've seen her for the past several months on

22 several occasions, and I had an opportunity to talk to

23 her.

24 Q. Mr. Buturovic, do you know whether now, as

25 earlier in 1992 and before the war, do you know that

Page 16165

1 members of all nationalities are still coming to the

2 family house of Zejnil Delalic as very good friends and

3 well-intentioned people?

4 A. Yes. I'm aware of that fact.

5 Q. Do you know Petko and Gordana Grubac?

6 A. I know Mr. Petko Grubac. He is a very

7 respectable neuropsychiatrist who lived in the same

8 neighbourhood and I also know his wife, Gordana, and I

9 know her very well.

10 Q. Did you have an opportunity to meet with any

11 of them this year?

12 A. Mrs. Gordana Grubac came to see me, to my

13 office. She came to apply to return. It is an

14 administrative procedure. It involves applying for the

15 restitution of property. She had no problems in doing

16 that, and she asked the tenant who is currently living

17 in her apartment whether she can come to the apartment

18 and take a few of her personal belongings, and I know

19 that she did go there and there was no problem in

20 contacting that person.

21 Q. Yes. That is, perhaps, not all necessary,

22 but did she express her wish to come back and live in

23 Konjic when you met her?

24 A. Yes, she did.

25 Q. Mr. Buturovic, since your institution has

Page 16166

1 this relevant database, have you received the request

2 of the Defence of Zejnil Delalic to be provided with

3 the relevant data, and did you give that database to

4 the president of the municipality?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. In the end, Mr. Buturovic, there is one more

7 question that I would like to ask you. You knew

8 Mr. Zejnil Delalic as a young man and as an adult. Was

9 he an emotional person? Was he just is his behaviour

10 and attitude towards other people?

11 A. He was a very fine person, emotional person.

12 He was a just person. He was ready to help, and he

13 was, as I already told you, cosmopolitan and humane,

14 and I think very highly of him.

15 Q. Could you trust him?

16 A. Yes, absolutely.

17 Q. Mr. Buturovic, I do not intend to hurt you in

18 any way, but you are one of the people who have

19 suffered severely in this war. The Court had an

20 opportunity to see on the videotape that your apartment

21 was one of the first apartments to be destroyed in this

22 war, and you had a personal tragedy. Your child is an

23 invalid as a result of the war. But can you tell me

24 what you gave me as an answer when I previously asked

25 you about Zejnil Delalic?

Page 16167

1 A. What I said was more or less the following:

2 I said that if Zejnil Delalic were still here before

3 the war, I would not have any problems. I know that I

4 now have to take my son to Tel Aviv for a very

5 complicated surgery which will cost me 40.000 German

6 marks, but if Zejnil Delalic were here before the war,

7 I wouldn't have any problems to find that money.

8 Q. Mr. Buturovic, when you came to The Hague,

9 you provided me with some original documents relating

10 to the receipt of the humanitarian aid, and the flour,

11 in particular. You provided me with some information

12 relating to the coordination board and also with a list

13 of people who received that flour in Donje Selo; is

14 that correct?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I have given

17 these documents to the Prosecutor, and if you have no

18 objections, I would like to tender them. These are

19 documents relating to the situation in 1991. I believe

20 they go to the mitigation, but if you don't deem them

21 relevant, we do not insist. However, these are the

22 original documents that were supplied by this witness.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Anything you find

24 necessary to show, you may tender them.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Then I will ask the usher's

Page 16168

1 assistance -- okay. I can do it later. Thank you.

2 MR. NIEMANN: In view of Your Honours'

3 ruling, I don't suppose there is much that I can do

4 but, I do object to the relevance because there is no

5 connection with Zejnil Delalic at all.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: They have nothing to do

7 with him?

8 MR. NIEMANN: No, not on their face.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: I have additional copies for

10 the Trial Chamber, and I have already provided a copy

11 to the Prosecution, and they will be in support of the

12 testimony of this witness. These are not original

13 documents. Obviously, they are all photocopies. This

14 concludes my examination of my witness, and I would

15 like to thank him.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have no objection to

17 the relevance of them.

18 MR. NIEMANN: I'll explore it in

19 cross-examination, Your Honours. Maybe I can find some

20 relevance.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination of

22 this witness? Any examination of the witness?

23 MR. MORAN: No questions, Your Honour.

24 MR. MORRISON: Your Honour, no, thank you.

25 MS. BOLER: We have no questions, Your

Page 16169

1 Honour.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Does the Prosecution

3 have any cross-examination?

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann:

5 Q. Mr. Buturovic, you said that Mr. Delalic made

6 a contribution to the town of Konjic being declared an

7 open town in 1997. Can you tell us the details of the

8 contribution he made towards that end?

9 A. The International Community considered for

10 awhile whether Konjic would be given the status of an

11 open city, and it monitored the situation in Konjic

12 from the beginning of the aggression. The

13 representatives of the international organisations knew

14 that from the beginning of the war, all people in

15 Konjic, regardless of what their names were, regardless

16 of which of the three groups they belonged to, were

17 treated in a just and equal way. It was well-known

18 that the humanitarian aid was evenly distributed. I

19 followed, very closely, this whole period, and

20 everything that went on in 1992 ultimately resulted or

21 contributed to Konjic being given the status of an open

22 city.

23 Q. What specifically did the International

24 Community acknowledge in relation to Mr. Delalic

25 himself concerning this issue of whether or not Konjic

Page 16170

1 would become an open town in 1997?

2 A. His attitude towards the local population,

3 regardless of who they were, he is a person who

4 advocated that people not be distinguished by their

5 background, but that they would all be treated in the

6 same way.

7 Q. Where might we find this acknowledgement by

8 the International Community? Is there some

9 documentation or publication which is being produced

10 which expressly mentions the name of Mr. Zejnil Delalic

11 and his contribution to this end?

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I object to

13 this question. The witness said that it was a general

14 contribution to creating conditions and prevailing

15 attitudes in this town.

16 A. No single individual received such

17 acknowledgement.

18 MR. NIEMANN: My friend misquotes the

19 transcript. If she cares to look at it, she will see

20 that the witness said in his evidence that Mr. Delalic

21 made a contribution to this, and that is merely what I

22 was exploring. I think we now have the answer from the

23 witness. Thank you.

24 Q. When Mr. Delalic spoke to you about providing

25 aid to the Serbs in Donje Selo, from what position of

Page 16171

1 authority, if any, was he speaking to you?

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, this question

3 is a question of responsibility. It does not fall in

4 the ambit of mitigating circumstances.

5 MR. NIEMANN: Counsel led this evidence, Your

6 Honour, amidst some of my objections, and she leads

7 this material on such a broad base. It is appropriate,

8 in my submission, and entirely relevant to explore

9 whether what he did was something as a consequence of

10 his own emotion or as a consequence of the position he

11 held. She calls it mitigating evidence, and she has

12 done the same thing in her written submissions on a

13 vast number of matters in a similar vein, then it is

14 done and we have to respond to it. I am merely

15 exploring that issue.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is a perfectly

17 legitimate question. I think the witness might be able

18 to explain the circumstance and the scope of what was

19 done. I don't think there is any ambiguity in that.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours. The

21 witness will say so, but I would not like to have my

22 questions misquoted. They are there in the transcript

23 because the witness has spoken about his personal

24 meetings and conversations with my client.

25 MR. NIEMANN: If there's any inference, Your

Page 16172

1 Honour, that I'm misquoting the transcript, then I

2 refute that.

3 Q. Now, sir, I asked you a moment ago what

4 position of authority, if any, did Mr. Delalic rely

5 upon in order to advise you that the people of Donje

6 Selo should be given aid, along with other persons in

7 the Konjic municipality, in 1992?

8 A. That occasion was an oath-taking ceremony for

9 the members of the BH army. This is when we met, and I

10 don't think he said it should, he said, "Alija, we are

11 all in a difficult situation, and perhaps the Serbs in

12 Donje Selo are in the worst situation." He didn't say

13 whether things should be done or must be done. It was

14 just sort of a hint. It was a suggestion, and I took

15 it as such.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That satisfies your

17 question. He didn't say anything in any capacity

18 whatsoever.


20 Q. This was an occasion when he was dressed in

21 military uniform, was it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. This occasion was at the Celebici barracks?

24 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. Could the witness

25 please repeat his answer?

Page 16173

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He said it was an

2 oath-taking occasion when it was done at the barracks.


4 Q. Did this occasion, when he spoke to you, was

5 this at the Celebici barracks when the oath-taking

6 ceremony took place and when he was dressed in military

7 uniform?

8 A. I personally was in front of the barracks. I

9 did not enter the barracks. I was not a military

10 person. I did not have a specific task to go there. I

11 just came for this ceremony of oath-taking.

12 Q. Was it at Celebici?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. On that occasion, did he suggest to you that

15 the Serbs that were either in Celebici or the families

16 of Serbs that were in Celebici should receive special

17 aid and assistance as well?

18 A. No. He just expressed his opinion to me. He

19 said that I should never succumb to the anti-Serbian

20 sentiment which prevailed in the town of Konjic at the

21 time.

22 Q. Now, the Serbs that were in Donje Selo where

23 Mr. Delalic had suggested should be given aid, they

24 were refugees from Bradina, were they not?

25 A. A number of Serbs from Donje Selo remained in

Page 16174

1 Donje Selo, and a number of them were given the status

2 of refugees from Bradina, which was sort of a

3 privileged refugee position.

4 Q. These refugees, I take it, from Bradina, were

5 there because of the war?

6 A. Unlike other suburban or outlying municipal

7 areas was by and large spared, so very few shells ever

8 landed there.

9 Q. You spoke of the fact that there were quite a

10 few Serbs who stayed in Konjic during the period of the

11 war and continue to stay there. Would that be a figure

12 of less than, say, two per cent or two per cent of the

13 Serbs who were originally there?

14 A. I do not have the statistical data before me

15 right now. I think that it's more than two per cent.

16 I don't know. It may be closer to five, but I really

17 don't have the right information.

18 Q. If I was to say to you that during the course

19 of these proceedings there's been evidence presented

20 before the Tribunal, in the form of a report by the

21 UNHCR, saying that only about two per cent of the Serbs

22 who originally were in Konjic remained in Konjic. You

23 wouldn't have any figures to disagree with that, I take

24 it?

25 A. Could you please repeat the question, if it

Page 16175

1 was in the form of a question.

2 Q. Yes. It was in the form of a question. What

3 I'm saying to you is if there's been evidence given

4 before this Tribunal that, in 1994, the UNHCR reported

5 that not more than two per cent of the Serbs who

6 originally were in Konjic remained in Konjic at that

7 time, you don't have any figures that would disagree

8 with that, I take it?

9 A. I do not have any figures, but I believe that

10 it is at least five per cent of the Serbs. In fact, in

11 my database in my computer, the representatives of the

12 UNHCR actually did visit our office and used that

13 information from the database we had, but I'm sure that

14 the figure is higher. This is not just Konjic, it's

15 Celebici, Podarasac, and Donje Selo. This is what I

16 had in mind when I spoke about Konjic.

17 Q. You spoke of refugees going to buildings and

18 so forth in Donje Selo and around Konjic city itself.

19 Why weren't refugees placed in Celebici, in the

20 Celebici barracks? Do you know? Do you know the

21 reason for that?

22 A. I do not know the reason for it. I don't

23 know what the barracks functioned as. I was in

24 civilian structures. I did my job honestly, and I do

25 not know what happened with the military facilities

Page 16176

1 then. I do not know what is going on there now.

2 Q. You testified about a visit by Mrs. Grubac

3 when she came to you and sought authorisation to go to

4 her previous premises and collect her property. Do you

5 remember saying that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Why did she need authorisation to go to her

8 own house to collect her own property?

9 A. She didn't need my permission. She came to

10 me as the first door neighbour because we lived door to

11 door and to a former good friend and, in fact, we have

12 remained good friends. I did not give her permission.

13 I just directed her to a window where she had to go and

14 submit an application. It was with this official which

15 we went, and this permission came from him. She took a

16 number of her possessions which she wanted. She did

17 not need my permission to do so at all.

18 Q. I'm very sorry if I attributed that to you

19 incorrectly. Perhaps you might be able to help me with

20 this, though. Why would it be necessary for her to go

21 to any official in the Konjic municipality in order to

22 visit her own house in order to collect her own

23 furniture? Can you help me with that?

24 A. I think this has a very simple explanation.

25 Any person desiring to return to a place where they own

Page 16177

1 a residence, they first have to report to the municipal

2 authority to see whether somebody has moved into this

3 apartment on a temporary basis, whether this apartment

4 is still standing, whether it is in a condition fit for

5 living. This lady came to an office which has been

6 established by the municipality at the instigation of

7 an American agency. She came to this office, and she

8 said, "I have an apartment in Marshal Tito

9 Street 36, and I want to be able to go back there."

10 Then she first received information about the condition

11 of her apartment there.

12 Q. Tell me, do you know why she took her

13 furniture and affects away if she intended to return?

14 A. She took what she requested. She may not

15 have found everything. Maybe some things were

16 removed. Maybe some things were destroyed, but she

17 submitted a form to the municipal authorities, and she

18 requested to return to the apartment which she legally

19 owns. She wants to go back to it when all the

20 conditions for this are met.

21 Q. I just briefly wish to turn to the exhibits

22 that have been tendered through you in relation to your

23 evidence, and I don't have the numbers of them, but

24 might those exhibits be given to the witness? I

25 understand it's 196/1, 197/1, and 198/1.

Page 16178

1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. They are not yet

2 finished. I am going to forward the remaining of

3 them. I'm just finishing numbering the others.

4 JUDGE JAN: What is in these documents you

5 want to examine?

6 MR. NIEMANN: I wish to find out why they are

7 relevant to mitigation.

8 Q. Could these exhibits be given -- might I ask

9 of the registrar, have I got the originals? Might the

10 exhibits be given to the witness, please.

11 JUDGE JAN: There are a number of names

12 mentioned which are normally Serb names, Cerkez --

13 MR. NIEMANN: I'm afraid I don't possess

14 detailed knowledge of these things. I've found on

15 numerous occasions, Your Honours, that they are not

16 always consistent.

17 Q. Could you just look at Exhibit 196/1 for me,

18 please? This is a decision of the War Presidency of

19 Konjic. Just in order that we may speed up this

20 process, I'm really only interested in determining why

21 they relate specifically to Mr. Delalic and why they

22 would be tendered in assistance of any mitigation plea

23 that he might have. Just dealing with that first one,

24 was Mr. Delalic, in some way, connected, was he, to the

25 War Presidency that you knew of?

Page 16179

1 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic was, in a way, just as all

2 the other members here, he was a coordinator between

3 the army and the municipal authorities in tasks which

4 were set by the War Presidency. Every member of this

5 body, Fra Drago Colak coordinator for Caritas,

6 Mr. Dzambas for Merhamet, and then there was Nadira

7 Buturovic for health protection.

8 Q. Yes. We don't need to go through all of

9 them, but perhaps you might help me then. Are you

10 saying that in his position as coordinator, on military

11 matters, that he was able to sort of coordinate your

12 activities as well? Is that what you're saying? I'm

13 just trying to explore this, of course.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In relation to military

15 matters --

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection again, Your

17 Honours.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He did not mention

19 military matters.

20 MR. NIEMANN: I'll withdraw that then.

21 Q. As a coordinator, you said between the army

22 and the municipal authorities, and I should use exactly

23 those words. In Mr. Delalic's capacity as coordinator

24 between the army and the municipal authorities, was he

25 able to in some way contribute to your activities in

Page 16180

1 relation to your board, was he?

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection, again, because the

3 Prosecutor is moving into the area of responsibility of

4 Mr. Delalic, whereas the witness was just trying to

5 point out the ethnic composition of this board, which

6 included Serbs, Muslims and Croats in 1992. I don't

7 think that any of my questions to this witness went in

8 the direction of establishing anything about my

9 client's responsibility.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose what the

11 witness was doing was to indicate how effective,

12 perhaps, Delalic was towards him, although, as he said,

13 it was in his ordinary, private capacity. He did not

14 suggest that he had any other capacity.

15 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, it's her

16 documents. I'm merely exploring them. She put them

17 in, and I'm just merely trying to find out what they

18 mean.

19 JUDGE JAN: She said that this document was

20 used to show that the coordination board was --

21 MR. NIEMANN: I heard her say that, Your

22 Honour, but I'm as a total loss to understand why that

23 has anything to do with the mitigation of any sentence

24 to be imposed on Mr. Delalic.

25 JUDGE JAN: She was trying to answer your

Page 16181

1 argument that the Serbs were thrown out of Konjic

2 because of the conduct of these persons, because he was

3 talking about the severity of the sentence.

4 MR. NIEMANN: I thought she was talking about

5 their return, and I thought that was to do with an

6 entirely different situation.

7 JUDGE JAN: What she's saying is this

8 document shows that the Serbs are still there and they

9 were taking part in these activities, for example, this

10 coordination board. It also had Serb members.

11 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, this is 1992 --

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will have to

13 stop now and come back at 4.30 to allow you to

14 continue.

15 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours please.

16 --- Recess taken at 4.02 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 4.37 p.m.

18 (The witness entered court)

19 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours please.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may continue,

21 please.

22 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Buturovic, I was showing you a document,

24 Exhibit 196. Is it your evidence that some of the

25 names listed there, being the composition of the board,

Page 16182

1 that some of those persons were Serbs, were they?

2 A. Yes. Vesna Bektasevic, for example, she's a

3 journalist of the Konjic radio station, and she has

4 retained her function. She had the duty to inform

5 people about the decisions reached by our board.

6 Q. Was this the committee or board that was

7 opposed to you providing aid to Donje Selo?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So this board was in favour of that, was it?

10 A. Yes, it was.

11 Q. Can you tell me why it is that you believe

12 that Mr. Delalic himself is, in some way, connected

13 with this document in terms of mitigation of his

14 sentence? Do you know the reason for that, in what way

15 he is connected to it?

16 A. I have indicated, on several occasions, that

17 I had personal and friendly connections with

18 Mr. Delalic, and I would consult him very often on

19 various matters. This was something that was not

20 binding in any way. We had our common opinions. We

21 thought that we should reach Donje Selo with our

22 supplies first. I have a delivery note here from which

23 you can clearly see that it was the village of Donje

24 Selo that received the aid in the first place. This

25 was followed by the health centre in Konjic and the

Page 16183

1 bakery which supplied bread for refugee centres, and

2 then came local communes and the other people who were

3 in need of help.

4 Q. But apart from Mr. Delalic being a person who

5 suggested that you might give it to people in Donje

6 Selo, he has no other connection whatsoever to these

7 documents, does he?

8 A. No.

9 Q. I thought you said in your evidence, and I

10 may be wrong on this, that some personal board or

11 committee in authority was against you giving food to

12 the Serbs in Donje Selo. Can you tell me who it was

13 that was against this giving of food to the Serbs in

14 Donje Selo?

15 A. The coordination board was in charge of

16 coordinating activities between Merhamet, Caritas, the

17 Red Cross organisation, and the centre for social

18 work. It was appointed and established by the War

19 Presidency of the municipality, which was the first

20 executive body of the municipality in that period.

21 Prior to the delivery, prior to the

22 distribution of humanitarian aid, we had to inform,

23 thereafter, the War Presidency. I was asked by the

24 person in charge, by the person who was sitting on the

25 War Presidency, why the aid should go to Donje Selo

Page 16184

1 first. There was a lot of criticism, for example, from

2 the president of the economic body, which was also

3 appointed by the War Presidency. This economic body,

4 economic council, consisted of some very respectable

5 businessmen in the area. It was these people who

6 criticised me and who didn't like the idea of the first

7 delivery to be carried out in Donje Selo.

8 The War Presidency and the health centre,

9 they were the only civilian institutions that were

10 working in the town during that period.

11 Q. This flour, wasn't this provided by the


13 A. Yes. It was the UNHCR that provided it to

14 the coordination board.

15 Q. Now, if the UNHCR was providing flour, it

16 certainly would insist that it not be restricted to one

17 ethnic group, wouldn't it?

18 JUDGE JAN: He has answered the question. He

19 said that there was a lot of anti-Serb feelings in the

20 town from the local people. There was an anti-Serb

21 feeling in the town because of the shelling and so on,

22 and maybe people felt very strongly that "We should

23 feed ourselves first before giving it to the Serb

24 population."

25 MR. NIEMANN: My suggestion, Your Honour, is

Page 16185

1 that the UNHCR, who gives the aid, would determine who

2 it goes to, and certainly any suggestion of it going to

3 just Muslims and just Serbs and not Croats would be

4 totally unacceptable to the UNHCR, and that's the point

5 I make.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I didn't think that is

7 what he wants. I think he meant that Donje Selo was

8 the first call of problem. Why should he go there

9 first? That is the point.

10 MR. NIEMANN: I understand two aspects of the

11 evidence, Your Honour. One is why it goes first and

12 why at all, and he tells us that it was because

13 Mr. Delalic had said to him, "You must look after the

14 people in Donje Selo." The point I'm trying to

15 establish is whether -- it may be the people who gave

16 the aid, namely, the UNHCR, who insisted that it be

17 distributed, notwithstanding the ethnic division in the

18 community, which is something we would expect the UNHCR

19 to do.

20 JUDGE JAN: I understand that in view of that

21 anti-Serb feeling, it's the actual distributors who

22 were more important in this respect.

23 MR. NIEMANN: I think the UNHCR would be very

24 quick to withdraw humanitarian aid or withdraw it from

25 the distributors if it was discovered that it was being

Page 16186

1 applied for one ethnic group only.

2 JUDGE JAN: That comes later, after the

3 distribution has been made.

4 MR. NIEMANN: I have a document here that was

5 given to me by the Defence which they did not seek to

6 tender which indicates, it seems to me, that the flour

7 was provided by the UNHCR based in Split and not some

8 local Red Cross or not some other charitable

9 institution. I'll ask the witness to, perhaps, have a

10 look at this document.

11 JUDGE JAN: Of course the coordination board

12 didn't take into account that anti-Serb feeling when

13 distributing the flour.

14 MR. NIEMANN: The UNHCR certainly would have,

15 Your Honours.

16 JUDGE JAN: They would have objected, but if

17 the coordination board would have given way to the

18 anti-Serb feeling --

19 MR. NIEMANN: I think that the problem may

20 be, Your Honours, that if it was distributed only to

21 the Muslim population of Konjic, and the Serbs who were

22 held in Donje Selo were not to receive aid at the time,

23 that that would be the last amount of aid that was

24 going to be supplied to that community. So there may

25 be another rational as to why it was distributed to the

Page 16187

1 Serbs in Donje Selo, other than the humanitarian works

2 and good nature of the accused, Mr. Delalic.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, please, if I

4 may respond, and so that the record is clear, I wish to

5 say that the witness did not state that Zejnil Delalic

6 had told him that he should give the flour in Donje

7 Selo, as quoted by Mr. Niemann. The witness told

8 himself that it was the first delivery of flour that

9 the International Community, that is, the UNHCR, sent

10 to Konjic.

11 There are no secret documents. Every

12 document that has been discussed by this witness was

13 given to the Prosecutor. We haven't given this to the

14 Court, but we can do so right now so that the Court can

15 see how the distribution went, but I don't think it's

16 necessary, because the witness has answered the

17 question.

18 MR. NIEMANN: Well, I think it might be

19 necessary to complete the record, seeing where it comes

20 from, because I think, from a reading of the

21 transcript, there is some confusion as to its source.

22 It certainly hasn't been made clear, until now, that

23 it's come from the UNHCR.

24 If I may, Your Honours, I think I would like

25 to show this document to the witness.

Page 16188

1 JUDGE JAN: It's not really important. You

2 can proceed further.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It doesn't make any

4 difference.

5 MR. NIEMANN: Well, I objected to all the

6 others, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think it

8 matters.

9 THE REGISTRAR: This is document D202/1

10 regarding the coordination board and accommodation of

11 displaced persons.


13 Q. Now, this document, Exhibit 202, indicates,

14 does it not, that the flour, 4.950 kilograms, was

15 taken over from the UNHCR which, at that time, was

16 based in Split, and it says specifically "For the

17 refugees residing in Donje Selo"; is that correct?

18 JUDGE JAN: Refugees. The Serbs were

19 locals.

20 MR. NIEMANN: It says, "For the refugees in

21 Donje Selo," Your Honour.

22 JUDGE JAN: Donje Selo was a Serb village.

23 MR. NIEMANN: Donje Selo had refugees, and

24 this witness has testified to that. This document says

25 that it was taken over from the UNHCR for the refugees

Page 16189

1 residing in Donje Selo. It's been submitted, Your

2 Honours, through this witness and attempted to be

3 established by documentation that the decision to give

4 the humanitarian aid that was received to the Serbs was

5 a consequence of something that Mr. Delalic said. Now,

6 this document seems to suggest something entirely

7 different.

8 JUDGE JAN: What I've said you've not

9 followed. The Serbs were the locals of Donje Selo, and

10 this document talks about refugees. The refugees were

11 the Muslims who would come from different parts of

12 Bosnia.

13 MR. NIEMANN: That's not my understanding of

14 the evidence. My understanding of the evidence is that

15 the refugees in Donje Selo came from Bradina. I asked

16 the witness questions about that, and they were the

17 Serbs from Donje Selo.

18 Q. Is it not right that this document relates to

19 flour received from the UNHCR based in Split

20 specifically for refugees residing in Donje Selo?

21 A. This document is a part of the form that we

22 used at the so-called distribution centre, and the

23 indicated quantity of goods was supposed to be

24 distributed to the indicated area. Later, this would

25 receive another form.

Page 16190

1 It is understandable that this humanitarian

2 aid, as well as every other humanitarian aid, went from

3 Split to Sarajevo. That was the only way it could

4 reach the relevant area. The shipment was intended for

5 displaced persons and refugees. I believe that this

6 document is quite clear. This was at the beginning of

7 the war when we found ourselves in a completely

8 different situation than before. The intention was an

9 honourable one. UNHCR never said specifically that it

10 should go to Donje Selo. It only indicated that the

11 aid should reach the refugees and the displaced

12 persons. The UNHCR trusted our committee, our board,

13 in that they knew that we would be honest about

14 distributing the food.

15 Q. The refugees that were located in Donje Selo

16 for the benefit of His Honour, in relation to His

17 Honour's question, the refugees that were located in

18 Donje Selo were, among others, Serbs that had been

19 refugees from the military activity and fighting that

20 occurred in Bradina; that's right, isn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the whole point of --

23 JUDGE JAN: Thank you.

24 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you.

25 Q. Now, just one more question, Exhibit 197, if

Page 16191

1 you could just have a look at that for me, please? Do

2 I take it that this document implies that the flour was

3 made into bread and it was then distributed in Donje

4 Selo. Is that what it means?

5 A. No. This document indicates that only eight

6 days after the distribution of the flour to Donje Selo,

7 the city bakery, which made bread for refugees and

8 displaced persons only, that they brought 4.000 kilos

9 of flour to the village only eight years after that.

10 It was only after that period of time that the city

11 bakery received flour to make bread for various places

12 where cooked food was distributed in the town.

13 Because of the situation and the

14 circumstances, most of the population was in need of

15 this type of distribution of food. It was the

16 coordination board who organised that, and we collected

17 food from various households in the town of Konjic.

18 This is how we dealt with it on a daily basis. Donje

19 Selo had the priority in receiving this food, and this

20 was also approved by the UNHCR. They approved it also

21 in respect of the Konjic Hospital where there were many

22 wounded people. This is all part of the humanitarian

23 work that we did at the time.

24 Q. The fact of the matter is that you had little

25 say in it, though, isn't it, that the flour was

Page 16192

1 provided by the UNHCR and was to be used to supply

2 refugees, and you were given the task to distribute it

3 to refugees; that's right, isn't it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It wouldn't have mattered one bit whether

6 Mr. Delalic said, "Give it to the refugees or not." It

7 had to go that way because it had been predetermined.

8 A. No. Delalic merely expressed his opinion,

9 and he never acted as anyone who had any kind of

10 superior authority. He provided his opinion, and he

11 said what I already quoted. He did not have any

12 specific role in the distribution of the food.

13 Q. It just so happened that his opinion

14 coincided with the requirements dictated by the UNHCR;

15 is that right?

16 A. The UNHCR did not say that the flour should

17 go there first. They simply trusted our board in

18 matters of distribution. After the first donations,

19 Konjic was the first town in Bosnia and Herzegovina in

20 terms of quantity of food that was distributed, because

21 and thanks to the work of the coordination board. We

22 had enough food so we distributed food. We gave food

23 away to Jablanica and other places so that people could

24 survive.

25 Q. Now, I just wanted to tidy one thing up

Page 16193

1 before I finished, in case I confused you, because I

2 think I may have misquoted the evidence as it was. I

3 spoke of the UNHCR figures relating to the percentage

4 of Serbs in Konjic in 1994, their study in 1994. I

5 think that I said that there was only two per cent

6 left. Just to clarify it, and you can respond to it if

7 you wish, but I just wish to clarify that what I

8 intended to say was, it was two per cent of the

9 population were Serbs in 1994 by this study, as opposed

10 to 15 per cent prior to the war. If I confused you in

11 any way and you wish to add to that, please do so now.

12 A. I believe that this is correct, that there

13 were 50 (sic) per cent of the Serbs living there. What

14 I said, the remainder of the Serbian population in

15 1992, I believe again that I can say it was about five

16 per cent. The first census of the refugees and

17 displaced persons and people who had stayed in their

18 homes, the first census was taken in '93, but we're not

19 talking only about the town of Konjic, because the town

20 of Konjic has only a third of the total population of

21 the entire Konjic municipality. I know the approximate

22 data for the municipality overall, but not specifically

23 only for the town of Konjic.

24 Q. I should say there are two things. We are

25 speaking on the same terms. We're talking about the

Page 16194

1 municipality. The other thing I noticed is the

2 transcript said "50 per cent" of Serbs living there,

3 and I said 15. Perhaps the transcript -- it's 15, not

4 50.

5 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions,

6 Your Honour. Thank you.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

9 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:

10 Q. Mr. Buturovic, my learned colleague of the

11 Prosecution showed you a document, the document

12 regarding the order to the distribution centre,

13 suggesting that this flour was sent by the UNHCR for

14 Donje Selo. Please tell us, was this quantity of flour

15 part of the 30-town shipment which you mentioned

16 previously?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. This amount was distributed according to the

19 criteria set up by your board?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The input of Mr. Delalic through personal

22 conversation was just for you to reaffirm your own

23 conviction that people should be treated in an

24 equitable manner?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16195

1 Q. My next question relates to a question put by

2 my learned colleague Niemann about a visit to

3 Ms. Gruvac and going back to her apartment. When we

4 talk about the --

5 A. Could you please repeat this question?

6 Q. People have a right to a residence, which

7 could mean two things, either that it is their own

8 ownership or property or that they live in a

9 state-owned apartment?

10 A. The tenant's right does not imply that they

11 possess the apartment, but it gives them the right to

12 return to this apartment when all the conditions for it

13 are met.

14 Q. I assume that the private property of the

15 Gruvac family, like their weekend house, continues to

16 be their private property?

17 A. Yes. That continues to be their private

18 property, unlike the apartment which is still socially

19 owned.

20 Q. Further in regard to the Prosecutor's

21 question, could you please tell me whether all

22 apartments are socially or state-owned which were

23 abandoned by their owners during the war, regardless of

24 whether the people who have abandoned them were Serbs,

25 Croats, or Muslims?

Page 16196

1 A. Yes. It is correct that the apartments which

2 were abandoned during wartime, they were declared

3 temporarily open or free. Then there was a body, a

4 municipal body, which was put in charge of them. There

5 was even a law that was passed regulating this issue.

6 Again, let me try to emphasise, after the war, this law

7 has been repealed. In Konjic, in the spirit of

8 openness, it is the leading town in encouraging people

9 to go back to their own residences.

10 There were various reasons for people leaving

11 Konjic. Some of them may have been fleeing

12 conscription, different reasons, but they all still

13 have -- they all still need to meet the same criteria

14 and same standards. They all have to apply to the

15 municipal authorities and go through due process.

16 Q. Mr. Buturovic, perhaps you can say on the

17 basis of your own example. Your own apartment was

18 completely destroyed. Where do you live now?

19 A. On 4th May, my apartment was shelled, and

20 then subsequently a couple of more shells fell there.

21 From the municipal authority, I was given the temporary

22 residence of a friend, of a good friend. It was a

23 smaller apartment, and I still live there. I

24 personally applied for that colleague's residence to be

25 returned to him, whereas, my own apartment is under

Page 16197

1 reconstruction, and I hope to be able to go back there

2 soon.

3 Q. And your colleague will go back to his own

4 apartment?

5 A. Yes. He will go back to his own apartment.

6 Q. Just as the Gruvac family are going to go

7 back?

8 A. Yes, just as the Gruvac family are going to

9 go back.

10 Q. The last question in response to the

11 cross-examination by my learned colleague, with regard

12 to the percentage of the Serbian population which has

13 remained, and we are not going to try to determine it

14 today, it probably exists in your data base, but since

15 you mentioned it, is it true that the largest number of

16 Serbian residents who left in 1992, left in April on a

17 voluntary basis on instructions or call by the SDS?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. I have no further

20 questions.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other witnesses? We

22 will discharge the present witness.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, yes, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much,

25 Mr. Buturovic. You are discharged.

Page 16198

1 (The witness withdrew)

2 THE REGISTRAR: Document D202/1 should be

3 renumbered document 266.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: I call as a witness Nebojsa

5 Manigodjic.

6 (The witness entered court)

7 THE USHER: Would you read out the oath,

8 please?

9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

10 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

11 truth.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may take your seat,

13 please.


15 Examined by Ms. Residovic:

16 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Would you please

17 introduce yourself by stating your full name?

18 A. My name is Nebojsa Manigodjic.

19 Q. What is your ethnic background and what is

20 your citizenship?

21 A. I'm a Serb and a citizen of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23 Q. What is your profession, sir?

24 A. I'm an architect.

25 Q. Do you know Mr. Zejnil Delalic, and if you do

Page 16199

1 so, please tell the Court how long you've known him.

2 A. Yes. I do know Zejnil Delalic. My

3 acquaintance with him goes back to 1973, which is

4 when he became a good acquaintance.

5 Q. Do you know whether Zejnil Delalic built a

6 family home in Konjic and were you, in any way,

7 involved in it?

8 A. Yes. I do know this, and this is how my

9 acquaintance with him started, because, as I told

10 you, I'm an architect by profession. So we became

11 better acquainted from that time when he was building

12 his house.

13 Q. Do you know where Zejnil Delalic used to live

14 until then?

15 A. Zejnil Delalic, that is, the Delalic family,

16 had a family home in Ostrozac, and Zejnil Delalic lived

17 in Germany at the time.

18 Q. When Zejnil Delalic's house was finished, did

19 you continue to meet with Zejnil Delalic and did you

20 meet in this house?

21 A. Yes. Our friendship after that continued,

22 and we would meet whenever we managed. As I said, he

23 lived in Germany, and this social circle, the old

24 friends, somehow managed to get together and spend as

25 much time as was possible.

Page 16200

1 Q. Now, Mr. Manigodjic, can you please tell the

2 Court what kind of circle this was? What were these

3 people by profession, by ethnic background, the circle

4 of friends of Zejnil Delalic?

5 A. This was our, sort of, small group from

6 Jablanica, as a core, and then there were a number of

7 people from outside of that circle. There were some

8 prominent persons there, both from the political arena

9 and from entertainment.

10 Q. During this association with you, did Zejnil

11 ever exhibit any intolerance or hostility towards

12 people of other ethnic backgrounds in Konjic who were

13 part of your group?

14 A. No. I absolutely never noticed that by any

15 detail, that he distinguished among any of these

16 different groups, members of different groups, and that

17 he treated them in any different way than us.

18 Q. So far as you know, Mr. Manigodjic, did

19 Mr. Zejnil Delalic like people and help people and even

20 some clubs and associations in Jablanica and Konjic?

21 If you know so, please tell the Court about it.

22 A. Yes. I do know about this. I know quite

23 well about it, and I can mention two examples of that

24 where I also participated. This concerned an exchange

25 which was established between two schools, one is in

Page 16201

1 Jablanica and another one is a very small town near

2 Frankfurt, Germany called Rodermark. These two schools

3 are similar by their programmes or their curriculum, in

4 fact. They specialised in instruction, and thanks to

5 Mr. Delalic's acquaintance with teachers in that

6 school, who also happened to be architects, we were

7 able to come up with a project which brought these two

8 schools together, and it was manifested through a

9 visit, first, of the students of the German school, and

10 these students came to Jablanica, and then the students

11 from Jablanica returned to visit to this school in

12 Germany.

13 Q. Having known Zejnil Delalic, Mr. Manigodjic,

14 and I'll come back to this story, did Zejnil Delalic,

15 both by his own example and by financial means, improve

16 the standards of living in an area such as Jablanica?

17 A. Perhaps, because we all lived in impoverished

18 conditions after the war. I think that Zejnil Delalic

19 was the first who sort of made good, and he achieved

20 success. Then he started to support his home area, and

21 he did so through either financial means or through

22 advice.

23 Q. We're still talking about Mr. Zejnil Delalic

24 before the war. How would you describe Mr. Delalic?

25 What kind of a man was he?

Page 16202

1 A. This friendship between us, as I said, it has

2 been going on for the last 30 years. We had a lot of

3 very fine moments over the course of this time. We

4 would have long parties. After this period of 30

5 years, I felt that this person continued to go down the

6 same path or stayed on the same track. That is both

7 with respect to his attitude towards other people, with

8 respect to his preparedness to assist people as much as

9 he could. Even after this disaster which has visited

10 us, I have not changed my opinion of him, because no

11 detail from all this time we've spent together is

12 pointing me in any other direction.

13 Q. I'm sure you know Miso Maric, a poet of

14 Serbian ethnic background, and I'm telling you this

15 because now it's become necessary for us to introduce

16 ourselves in ethnic terms as well, and also a member of

17 the rock group Indexe called Pimpek?

18 A. Yes. I do know these people, and I saw those

19 two persons at Zejnil Delalic's, especially, Miso

20 Maric. These two persons were more involved in

21 entertainment, but there were also other people who

22 were involved in political life. This was a home where

23 everybody liked to go.

24 Q. During this entire period in which you knew

25 Mr. Delalic before the war, and you said that you

Page 16203

1 haven't changed your opinion about him since, did you

2 ever notice any trace of nationalism with Mr. Delalic

3 or certain narrow-mindedness with respect to a certain

4 ethnic background of any person?

5 A. No, I really did not -- I neither experienced

6 it, nor ever felt it.

7 Q. Mr. Manigodjic, you spent the war in

8 Jablanica. Did you have an opportunity to meet with

9 Zejnil Delalic, and did you ever feel that his attitude

10 towards you and members of other ethnic communities,

11 did you ever feel that he changed his attitude towards

12 you and his other friends, in any way?

13 A. In 1992, I did meet on two or three occasions

14 with Zejnil Delalic in Jablanica. This was after the

15 war had begun. This was not part of any organised

16 get-together. I just came across him because we had

17 other duties at the time. We did not have, of course,

18 much time left for socialising at that time.

19 However, I really could not notice any change

20 in his attitude, any change in our relationship,

21 anything that I would qualify as a changed type of

22 behaviour, anything that would be termed as some kind

23 of nationalism. No, really, nothing was changed

24 between the two of us. I don't think he ever changed

25 his attitude towards others either.

Page 16204

1 Q. You say that you used to meet him, you used

2 to see him in the company of people coming from various

3 walks of life, people who were engaged in politics,

4 entertainment, sports, and so on. Did Delalic treat

5 every one of you equally, as his friends, as his

6 acquaintances, or did he ever try to teach anyone any

7 lessons?

8 A. See, we did get together very frequently, and

9 we would discuss things. We tried to be active in

10 social terms. We organised a number of good actions,

11 and Zejnil was involved in that. We were all involved

12 in that, his friends, myself. No, he never looked down

13 on anyone. He never put his own finger in it. He

14 always treated us equally. I'm sure that he was in a

15 position to help more than it was the case with us.

16 Q. I had said that I would go back to one thing

17 that you mentioned earlier on in your testimony.

18 However, I have one question prior to that. When you

19 left Jablanica, where did you go and did you

20 subsequently meet with Mr. Zejnil Delalic? When was

21 it, after the war, that you left Jablanica? Where did

22 you go, and did you see Zejnil Delalic on that

23 occasion?

24 A. Yes. After the war, I left the territory of

25 Bosnia and Herzegovina for the first time. It was in

Page 16205

1 April 1995. I went to see my relatives in Germany, and

2 I was passing through Vienna where I had lots of

3 friends, a lot of people I knew from Jablanica. I had

4 some regards to convey, and I stopped at the club of

5 friends of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Vienna. I did not

6 wish to stay longer than one day, but then again, it

7 was the old Zejnil that I came across, the same old

8 Zejnil as he was before the war, so I stayed for three

9 or four days, and I had a very good time with him.

10 Q. You have testified about his being friendly

11 and helpful to everybody, regardless of their

12 nationality. Did you experience the same kind of

13 attitude towards you, yourself, and other people in

14 Vienna on the occasion when you met him there?

15 A. Yes, yes, absolutely. He was the same. He

16 had the same attitudes towards everyone else. He was

17 treating us like a gentleman.

18 Q. There is one more area, and it is going to be

19 the last area that I want to cover, something I would

20 like to ask you, Mr. Manigodjic. You mentioned that

21 you had an idea to organise exchange between two

22 schools and that this was the result of the efforts of

23 some businessmen, people who were working in Germany.

24 Is it true that you provided me with certain

25 letters from that school and press articles from 1981

Page 16206

1 which speak about the efforts put forth by Zejnil

2 Delalic to organise something that amounted to an

3 interstate cooperation between two groups of young

4 people? Did you provide me with this from your own

5 personal documentation?

6 A. Yes, yes. This is my personal property, and

7 these articles refer to the exchange of schools. This

8 is just a small detail which can be supported with a

9 number of names of people who were involved in that

10 exchange, something that can further explain how this

11 cooperation went.

12 Q. Is it true that you were one of the

13 organisers of these exchanges?

14 A. Yes. I was also one of the organisers. I

15 took part in the whole project from the beginning to

16 the end.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. I would kindly

18 ask the assistance of the usher to distribute this

19 material, and I have already given this to the

20 Prosecutor. We would like to tender this into

21 evidence, because it goes to the activities of Zejnil

22 Delalic in 1981 in a humanitarian area.

23 MR. NIEMANN: No objections, Your Honour.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Can I have the numbers for

25 identification, please? This would conclude the

Page 16207

1 examination of this witness.

2 THE REGISTRAR: D202/1, D203/1, the first one

3 being "Friendship on the Neretva River," and D203/1

4 being the school comprising the elementary, secondary

5 and high schools, district of Offenbach.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Are these documents admitted

7 into evidence, Your Honour?

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, they are.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: These are earlier than

11 the activities you're complaining about.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: I'm sorry. I haven't

13 received a translation of your comments.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The documents are so

15 many years earlier than the activities we are talking

16 about.

17 Are there any questions?

18 MR. NIEMANN: Does Your Honour wish me to

19 start cross-examination now?

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You might start tomorrow

21 morning.

22 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours please.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

24 now rise and reassemble at 10.00 a.m.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

Page 16208

1 5.37 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

2 the 15th day of October, 1998 at

3 10.00 a.m.