Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 766

 1                          Wednesday, 25 July 2001

 2                          [Depositions Hearing]

 3                          [Open session]

 4                          [The accused entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.22 a.m.

 6            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Please be seated.

 7    Mr. Prosecutor, I think that this morning's witness or the promised

 8    witness for this morning - maybe I'm optimistic - benefits from protection

 9    measures.

10            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. Fourmy, good morning.  There are a couple of

11    matters that I would like to take up with you.  One we can do in open

12    session.  In a moment, I may -- I think I'll ask to go into private

13    session for a moment, but let me just -- let me just address something in

14    general.

15            As you know, we hoped to -- we may not be able to, but we hoped to

16    be able to cover as many of our proposed deposition witnesses as possible

17    between now and the end of next week.  In order to do so, I suspect that

18    with many of our witnesses, we are going to increasingly go pretty much,

19    if I can say, to the heart of the matter, and, therefore, we may skip some

20    topics.  We may skip some parts of their statements which do not go to the

21    main thrust of their testimony.

22            I just say that to you -- I alert you to that and counsel to that

23    so that there isn't any particular surprise about that.  Obviously,

24    counsel will still decide about what they think is the scope of what they

25    think, and for your view as well, the appropriate scope of

Page 767

 1    cross-examination, but I'm just alerting everyone involved that we're

 2    going to try to increasingly go fairly quickly to the most important part

 3    of the testimony.

 4            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor.  I think

 5    it is absolutely up to you to decide which questions you're going to put

 6    to the witness you have called, and the Defence will take that into

 7    account.

 8            Regarding the second point, Mr. Prosecutor, would you like us to

 9    go into private session?

10            MR. SCOTT:  If we could go to private session for a moment,

11    please.

12            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, please.

13                          [Private session]

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11  Pages 768-777 redacted.  Private session.















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 9                          [Closed session]

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Page 779











11  Pages 779-847 redacted.  Closed session.















Page 848

 1   (redacted)

 2                          [Open session]

 3            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.  Please be

 4    seated.

 5            Mr. Prosecutor, shall we go on to the testimony of the next

 6    witness?  Are there any protective measures, please?  I think this witness

 7    is to be heard in public session, without any measures.  Am I right?

 8            MR. STRINGER:  Unfortunately, Mr. Fourmy, we were informed when we

 9    met with the witness after she arrived in The Hague that she now was

10    requesting that she be given a pseudonym and also face distortion.  The

11    Defence were informed of this previously.  I don't believe they object to

12    that, but -- so I regret to inform you that we will not be completely

13    public testimony; it will be with a pseudonym and with face distortion, if

14    you approve of it.

15            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] For the Defence, please.

16            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] We have already discussed the matter

17    with my learned friends, and we have no objection.

18            I would like to take advantage of this opportunity to give you

19    what I promised, that is, the Croatian versions of the statement by

20    Witness B, with the assistance of the usher, please.  [In English] Thank

21    you.

22            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] These are statements given to the

23    Office of the Prosecutor.  Am I right?

24            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Yes.  You are quite

25    right.

Page 849

 1            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, on this point?

 2            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. Fourmy, I haven't seen the documents that have

 3    just been handed to the greffier.  I assume they are the B/C/S versions of

 4    the witness statement provided to the OTP investigators, which appears to

 5    be the case.  So we have no objection.

 6            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. Fourmy, if you'll allow me, and I apologise for

 7    interrupting.  This actually relates to a matter for the last witness,

 8    obviously.  We don't object, that this is, as far as we know, completely

 9    authentic.  To that extent, there is no objection.  I just wanted to

10    mention, just for clarification's sake, I'm not suggesting it be addressed

11    today let alone resolved, but just the exact status of these various

12    witness statements that we're putting in, because I'm not really sure for

13    what purposes they're being put in.  If it's just as impeachment material,

14    that is one thing.  That's at least what I would call impeachment

15    material.  But if it's being considered as substantive evidence, then

16    that's something that I think we need to take up, but not today.

17            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, I think that the

18    Defence would agree with you on this point, that this is not something we

19    can discuss today.  It is rather a question that appears very frequently,

20    and it will be raised each time we have a deposition witness.

21            Perhaps the parties could meet and this could be a subject of a

22    brief filing so that the Judges can consider it.  But for the moment, I

23    think we'll have to leave it there, that the document that has been

24    tendered, Madam Registrar, under a number you will tell us, and on the

25    understanding that the Prosecutor will provide us English versions and

Page 850

 1    maybe also French versions.  Thank you.

 2            MR. SCOTT:  Thank you.

 3            THE REGISTRAR:  This will be marked as Exhibit D1/6.

 4            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. Fourmy, if I may, while just on the subject of

 5    protective measures, perhaps it would be of assistance to just mention to

 6    you at this time that we have been informed that the following witness,

 7    that is, the one who will come after the witness who next appears in this

 8    courtroom, we met with her last night and she has asked a slight

 9    modification of her protective measures, which we've informed Defence

10    counsel of.  She had previously indicated she wanted only pseudonym.  Now

11    she's asking that she also have face distortion as well.  So that's a

12    slight modification that we ask for the next witness who will appear after

13    the one that will start testifying shortly.  Thank you.

14            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Any comments on this point from the

15    Defence?

16            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] We told Mr. Stringer that we agreed

17    before the hearing started, simply to save time, so I think this was

18    agreed between the parties.  Thank you.

19            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Seric.

20            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] We accept these increased protective

21    measures for witnesses.

22            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23            So I think perhaps we can have the next witness brought in,

24    Mr. Prosecutor, and the technical booth can take care of the facial --

25    redacting the face of the witness while she walks in so as not to be able

Page 851

 1    to identify her.

 2                          [The witness entered court]

 3            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.  Can you hear me,

 4    madam?

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, regarding the

 7    pseudonym, this will be Witness C, will it not?

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Mr. Fourmy, it is Witness C.

 9            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Witness, we have to apologise, but

10    you asked for protective measures; therefore, I will be referring to you

11    as Witness C and the Prosecutor and the Defence will also address you as

12    Witness C throughout the testimony, which corresponds to your request for

13    protection.

14            Before being seated, I would like to ask you to be kind enough to

15    read the solemn declaration that the usher is going to give to you.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18                          WITNESS:  WITNESS C

19                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

20            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness C.  You

21    may be seated.

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Try and make yourself as comfortable

24    as possible.  Please feel at ease.  We thank you for coming today to

25    testify.

Page 852












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Page 853

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We're going to check with you your

 3    identity.  The usher is going to give you a piece of paper.  Please don't

 4    speak aloud what is written on it, just tell us with yes or no whether

 5    that is your name.  Is that your name?

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 7            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness C.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Witness C, I suppose that things have

10    been explained to you as to how we will proceed.  I'm not a judge.  I'm

11    here just to act as mediator when that is necessary, which is rarely.  So

12    you will first answer questions put to you by the Prosecutor, after which

13    the Defence will ask you questions if they wish to do so.  And then after

14    that, if the Prosecutor so wishes, he may have some additional questions

15    which will be final, and upon that, your testimony will be over.

16            What I would like to ask you is to listen carefully to the

17    questions put to you and to answer them calmly on the basis of what you

18    know and the information that you have.  If for one or other reason you

19    may want a break, please let me know, and we can arrange it.

20            So if everything is all right, we can begin with the Prosecutor.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Mr. Prosecutor, your

23    witness.

24            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

25            Before I begin, could I trouble the usher to just move the ELMO

Page 854

 1    either forwards or backwards?  It's right in the line of sight between me

 2    and the witness.  Thank you.  Thank you, that's much better.  Yes.

 3                          Examined by Mr. Stringer:

 4       Q.   Witness C, good afternoon.

 5       A.   Good afternoon.

 6       Q.   Can I first ask you some general questions about you.  In

 7    particular, are you -- did you live in the village of Doljani in April of

 8    1993?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   How long had you lived in Doljani up to that point?

11       A.   I lived there from 1958 until 1993.

12       Q.   Now -- and may I ask you, are you a Bosnian Muslim?  Is that your

13    national or your ethnic background?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And in April of 1993, were you married?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Did you have any children?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Thank you.  Now, I want to direct your attention to the 17th of

20    April of 1993.  Does that date mean anything in particular to you?

21       A.   Yes, it does.

22       Q.   Is that the date that your village and the village of Sovici came

23    under attack?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Now, if I could ask you just to tell us briefly about the day or

Page 855

 1    two which preceded this attack on your village.  Did you notice any change

 2    in the behaviour of any of your neighbours in the area?  How had relations

 3    been between the Muslims and the Croats previously, and did that

 4    relationship change at all in the days just before the attack?

 5       A.   Yes.  There was a distance between us.

 6       Q.   And what do you mean by "a distance"?  Could you be a little more

 7    specific for us about that?

 8       A.   I don't know what I could say.  They avoided us.  That is what I

 9    meant.

10       Q.   Was it always like that in Doljani or was this a change?

11       A.   No.  We lived well together, living next to one another.

12       Q.   Now, in the days just prior to the attack, did you notice any

13    limitations that were put into effect on one's ability to move or to leave

14    the area?

15       A.   No.  They all rallied in one village and we stayed in our homes.

16       Q.   Now, just a day or two before the attack, did you notice any

17    checkpoints that were placed on the roads in your area?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Who established the checkpoints?

20       A.   Croatian soldiers.

21       Q.   And did those checkpoints place any limitations on the ability of

22    the Muslims to move throughout the area?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Was it possible to leave the village after the checkpoints were

25    established?

Page 856

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   Now, at some point, I think the day before the attack, was a group

 3    of your Muslim neighbours able to actually get out of the village?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   And can you tell us how they managed to do that?

 6       A.   Overnight they managed to escape between the lines, between their

 7    checkpoints.

 8       Q.   Now, was it possible for you to have done the same thing?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   And is that because you lived a bit farther up the road?

11       A.   Yes, yes.

12       Q.   Now, on the 17th of April, can you tell us generally what

13    happened?  Can you describe this attack that you've mentioned?

14       A.   Yes.  The shelling started of Sovici, then also of Doljani, and

15    that is how it went on.

16       Q.   And how long -- well, can I ask you, when did the shelling start,

17    approximately?

18       A.   Around 9.00.

19       Q.   Okay.  And can you tell us how long it continued?

20       A.   The shelling went on until 2.00.

21       Q.   And were you able to tell approximately or what direction the

22    shelling was coming from?

23       A.   Yes.  From the direction of Risovac.

24       Q.   Is Risovac an area that's on high ground outside or beyond the

25    village of Sovici?

Page 857

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   The shelling that took place on the 17th, were certain particular

 3    hamlets within Sovici and Doljani being hit by the shelling?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   For example, if there were Croat hamlets or Muslim hamlets, were

 6    you able to tell whether one particular type was being targeted in the

 7    shelling?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Which type was the target of the shelling, as far as you could

10    tell?

11       A.   In Sovici, the village, the hamlet called Kovaci, Rudina.  In

12    Doljani, Kraj?  That's how this hamlet was called, Kraj.  And further on

13    down in Donji Doljani, this was not possible to such an extent because the

14    houses were mixed.

15       Q.   The houses were not mixed in the other hamlets which you just

16    mentioned?

17       A.   They were not.

18       Q.   And which group lived in those hamlets?

19       A.   Muslims, those that were shelled.  And those that were not shelled

20    were inhabited by Croats.

21       Q.   Now, Witness C, where were you while all this shelling was taking

22    place?

23       A.   I was in my house.

24       Q.   Did you remain in your house for that entire day?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 858

 1       Q.   You mentioned you had a husband and children.  Where were they at

 2    this time?

 3       A.   Yes.  My son was in the woods, one of them, and husband; and my

 4    other son was absent.  He simply wasn't at home, but he took shelter from

 5    the shelling.

 6       Q.   And did you mention where your husband was?  Yes, you did.

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Okay.  So your husband and one of your sons were in the woods?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And it's my understanding that your other son was visiting

11    relatives in another area and was simply not, not in your area; is that

12    correct?

13       A.   Yes.  He was in Mostar, visiting my sister.

14       Q.   Now, at some time during that day on the 17th, did you observe

15    that HVO soldiers entered the village?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Can you tell us approximately or roughly how many soldiers came

18    into your village at that time?

19       A.   I couldn't tell you, but there were many.

20       Q.   And when they entered the village, did they give instructions to

21    the people who were there in their houses?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   What did they say?

24       A.   They said that they, too, had to go to Sovici to the school.  As

25    the civilians didn't want to go, they rounded up these other soldiers --

Page 859

 1    the men, rather, and took them to Sovici, whereas the women and children

 2    remained behind in their houses.

 3       Q.   Now, did they, did they instruct the men or the soldiers to

 4    surrender any weapons they had?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And now, at this point, what did your husband and son do?

 7       A.   My husband didn't have a weapon.  My son surrendered his, and

 8    that's what they did.

 9       Q.   Now, at some point did your husband and your son, then, return to

10    your house from the woods?

11       A.   No, not until they were called by the Croatian soldiers.  They

12    said they had to surrender and come out onto the road; otherwise, they

13    would attack the civilians.  And what else could they do but come back

14    home?

15       Q.   So when they came back home, did any HVO soldiers arrive at your

16    house?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Can you tell us approximately how many soldiers came to your

19    house?

20       A.   Four, four of them.  They actually entered.

21       Q.   How were you able to identify them as HVO soldiers?

22       A.   They had insignia on their sleeves.

23       Q.   Can you tell us what letters or what was the appearance of the

24    insignia?

25       A.   Simply the abbreviation "HVO" was on their sleeve.

Page 860

 1       Q.   And you said that your son surrendered his weapon.

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Then what happened to your husband and your son?

 4       A.   They were taken to the school at Sovici.  Then the next day they

 5    were taken to the prison in Ljubuski, and they released them home 11 and a

 6    half months later.  That's what happened to them.

 7       Q.   Okay.  Now, at the time that they took your husband and your son

 8    up to the school, were there other Muslim men who were also being moved up

 9    to the school?

10       A.   Yes, yes.

11       Q.   And then where did you spend the rest of that day, which is the

12    17th of April?

13       A.   I spent it at home.

14       Q.   Did anyone tell you what would become of your husband and your son

15    at the time they were taking them away?

16       A.   Nobody, nothing.

17       Q.   Now, on the next day, the 18th of April, can you tell us what you

18    did on that day?

19       A.   The 18th of April, I went looking for my son and husband.  I

20    wanted to know where they were.

21       Q.   And were you able to learn where they were at that time?

22       A.   Yes.  Yes, I did learn that.  I went to the school and saw them.

23       Q.   Okay.  So -- and again, just so the Judge knows, so the record

24    knows, where -- what school are we talking about?

25       A.   The school in Sovici, the Sovici school.

Page 861

 1       Q.   Were there any others at the Sovici school?  Were you able to see

 2    or tell?

 3       A.   Yes.  There were many people there.  I think there were at least

 4    90.

 5       Q.   And then I take it you -- what did you do after you went to the

 6    school?

 7       A.   Went back home, realised what they needed, tried once again, but

 8    they wouldn't let me go in for the second time and see them again.

 9       Q.   Were there other villagers in Sovici who were like you who were

10    still in their homes after the men had been taken to the school?

11       A.   I wouldn't know because we were not allowed to go around the

12    place, around various houses.  I could only take the road to the school

13    and come back home.

14       Q.   Okay.  Now, we're talking about the 18th of April.  Can you tell

15    us approximately how many days, then, you continued to live in your home

16    after your husband and son were taken to the school?

17       A.   I stayed at home until the 5th of May in a kind of detention, in

18    a -- under house detention.

19       Q.   Okay.  Now, did other Muslims then end up staying with you during

20    this period?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   We'll talk about that a little later.  I want to talk about these

23    first couple of days after the 18th of April, and I want to ask you if

24    your house was ever searched by any soldiers.

25       A.   It was.

Page 862

 1       Q.   Can you tell us generally about that?  How often did they search

 2    and what were they searching for?

 3       A.   They were looking for weapons.  At times they would come three

 4    times a day in the early days, so that it must have been ten times or more

 5    that they searched the house, but they never found anything.

 6       Q.   And when they searched the house, what did they do with you?

 7       A.   Nothing.  They forced you to go out.  Those neighbours who were

 8    there, I had to be with them, to see how they were turning the house

 9    upside down.  Of course I had to be present there.

10       Q.   Okay.  That was my next question, was the condition of the house

11    after they searched it.  Can you tell us about that?

12       A.   I can.  Chaos, nothing else but chaos in the house, if you know

13    what "chaos" means.

14       Q.   Do you recall one occasion during one of these searches when in

15    particular they were looking for some sort of a mortar weapon?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And can you tell us what happened during that particular

18    occasion?

19       A.   We were all forced out and lined up next to Mustafa Junuzovic's

20    house.  It was the Drinovac.  I don't know the name of the -- another

21    name, but I know that was his last name.  And he had three other soldiers

22    with him, and he was looking for a mortar.  I mean, he could kill us all.

23    We didn't know what it was.  We were all civilians.  To this day, I don't

24    know what that is that he was looking for.

25       Q.   And at some point during that, did you hear whether the houses in

Page 863

 1    your area were under some sort of protection?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Okay.  Can you tell us about that?

 4       A.   I can, yes.  When he took us out to shoot us because of that

 5    mortar, one mother of one of the soldiers there --

 6            THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry, the --

 7       A.   She had a paper in her hands, and it said that Junuzovic houses

 8    and population should be spared.  And it was signed by Tuta, but I do not

 9    know who actually had signed it.  So that let us go.  They did not shoot

10    us, and they stopped looking for that mortar too.

11            MR. STRINGER:

12       Q.   Now, at some point during this period, it's my understanding that

13    you and others were then instructed to go up to the Sovici school

14    yourselves; is that correct?

15       A.   It is.  It is.

16       Q.   And are you able to tell us the date in which you believe that

17    occurred?

18       A.   Around the 22nd, 21st.  I'm not really sure about the date.  I

19    didn't think about that.  But neighbours then came and ordered us to go to

20    the Sovici school.

21       Q.   Let me ask it this way if I could, Witness C:  If we say that the

22    attack occurred on the 17th of April, can you tell us, if you know,

23    approximately how many days after that attack you were then instructed to

24    go up to the Sovici school?

25       A.   Three days later.  On the third day.

Page 864

 1       Q.   And were others also going up to the school with you?

 2       A.   Yes.  Yes.

 3       Q.   And how did you actually go to the school?  Did you walk?

 4       A.   Yes, we walked.

 5       Q.   And as you were walking up to the school then, were you able to

 6    see the condition of any of the Muslim houses in the area?

 7       A.   Yes.  They had all been set on fire.

 8       Q.   Were any of them burning as you were going up to the school?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   Can you tell us, if you know, when did this burning of houses take

11    place?

12       A.   We didn't note down dates, so I don't know that, but I know that

13    they burnt down.  And as we walked to the school, I could see that they

14    had all burnt down.

15       Q.   Now, did this burning of the houses, did it occur during the

16    shelling attack on the 17th or did it occur after that?

17       A.   No.  When they took men to Ljubuski, it was that same day they

18    started putting fire to houses and burnt as many as they managed to.

19       Q.   Now, you mentioned a moment ago about a paper which you heard

20    indicated that certain houses at Junuzovici that were not to be

21    destroyed.  Do you recall that?

22       A.   I do, yes.  I do.

23       Q.   And in fact, were those houses also burned or were they spared?

24       A.   They were spared as of that moment, and for two months after that,

25    I mean following the attack, they were not burnt, because they were all

Page 865

 1    civilians from Sovici and some people from Doljani.  We were there until

 2    the 5th of May.  After that, they were also burnt.

 3       Q.   Okay.  Now, Witness C, when you and the others arrived, and can

 4    you tell us generally what was the -- what was this group like, these

 5    people who were now going up to the Sovici school at the time you went up

 6    there?  Were they soldiers, men, women, old, young?

 7       A.   Women and children and elderly in that group of ours that went to

 8    the school, but in the Sovici school, there were many more people.  As a

 9    matter of fact, we simply couldn't fit in.  There wasn't room enough for

10    us.  So we didn't stay there long.

11       Q.   And where were the men of Sovici and Doljani at this point, the

12    Muslim men?

13       A.   They had been taken to Ljubuski.

14       Q.   Now --

15       A.   It was the civilians.  In the school, I mean.

16       Q.   What happened at the school when you arrived there?

17       A.   I didn't stay long in that school, perhaps not more than an hour.

18    And it was terrible just to see all those people in just two rooms.

19       Q.   Can you give us an estimate of how many people were in those two

20    rooms?

21       A.   Well, I'd say around 360 in the school at that time when I got

22    there, including also ours, the group that arrived with me.

23       Q.   And is it -- these were women and children and elderly people who

24    had not previously been taken out of the village?

25       A.   That's right.  Yes, yes, yes, and very old.

Page 866

 1       Q.   Now, was there any sort of registration process that occurred at

 2    the school when you arrived there?

 3       A.   Yes, there was.

 4       Q.   And can you tell us just briefly about the registration.  Was

 5    anyone in particular in charge of the registration?

 6       A.   There was, yes.  Blaz Azinovic was taking down our names, and he

 7    took us also back to Junuzovici, but he was the one who kept the record

 8    and took down our names.

 9       Q.   Do you know what was the purpose of making this record?

10       A.   I don't know.  I didn't know that.

11       Q.   Now, you mentioned just now that Mr. Azinovic took you and others

12    back down.  Could you please tell us more about that.  What happened to

13    you and the others after you were registered at the school?

14       A.   Nothing.  They took us back home to Junuzovici because all the

15    houses had already burned down except the Junuzovici.  So all those

16    people, the civilians from Sovici, we all returned to Junuzovici.  And I

17    think there were some 400 people there.  I'm not sure, really, about the

18    figure, but -- yeah, I'm positive it was about 400.

19       Q.   Now, you talk about these Junuzovici houses.  How many houses are

20    we talking about?

21       A.   Seven.

22       Q.   And up to this point, these were undamaged houses?

23       A.   That's right.

24       Q.   And then how many people were put into these seven houses?

25       A.   I've just told you a moment ago if you were listening to me:

Page 867

 1    Around 400.

 2       Q.   I apologise, you did say that.  Then the -- what were the

 3    conditions in these houses?  May I suggest it was a bit crowded?

 4       A.   Oh, yes, yes, it was overcrowded.  It was impossible.  I mean, all

 5    those people to fit into those houses, but you had to.  Nobody asked you

 6    what you thought.

 7       Q.   Can you tell us, if you know, how many people were staying in the

 8    house in which you found yourself?

 9       A.   Yes; 73.

10       Q.   Normally how many people would live in a house such as this?

11       A.   Well, say, a five-member family, that they would feel comfortable

12    in it.

13       Q.   At the time you and the others were brought to these houses, did

14    you see -- what was happening to the property there, the things there, the

15    animals, the cars, if you know?

16       A.   Well, I know it all.  Soldiers took it all, livestock and vehicles

17    and anything they liked in the houses.  And anything they wanted, they

18    simply took it away.

19       Q.   Can you tell us approximately how many days you and the others

20    were kept in these houses?

21       A.   I was there between the -- from 17th of April until the 5th of

22    May, and the same goes for my neighbours.  And those who came from the

23    school, they were in the house as long as I was there.

24       Q.   Okay.  Now, you just said that you were kept in these houses from

25    the 17th of April.  I'm asking about the period of time after you and the

Page 868

 1    others were brought there from the school, so it's a little bit after the

 2    17th; isn't that correct?

 3       A.   It is.

 4       Q.   Did you have electricity?  Were the needs of you and the others --

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Were your needs being met during this time in these houses?

 7       A.   No, no.

 8       Q.   Now, who were the persons who were guarding you or keeping you at

 9    these houses?  Can you tell us if they were from a particular group?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And when you first arrived at these houses from this school, who

12    was guarding you there?

13       A.   Our neighbours were on guard there.

14       Q.   Were these members of the HVO?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   So they were HVO.  But they were local people?

17       A.   That's right.

18       Q.   And at some point was there a change in the composition of the

19    people who were guarding you and the others?

20       A.   Yes, yes.  A soldier came and said, "Well, so far you were guarded

21    by neighbours, and now you're being taken over by Tuta's.  Mind what you

22    are doing because they will fire first and talk later."  That was it.

23    That is how they introduced them to us, that they were Tuta's.

24       Q.   Did you personally speak to or see any of these Tuta soldiers?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 869












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Page 870

 1       Q.   Had you ever heard of this group, Tuta's group, before the day

 2    they arrived there?

 3       A.   No, never.

 4       Q.   Now, can you tell us generally how many days, then, you and the

 5    others were guarded by Tuta's group in these houses?

 6       A.   Well, about ten days.  We were under Tuta's guards for about ten

 7    days.

 8       Q.   And did you see anything on their uniforms or their equipment

 9    which indicated to you that they were, in fact, Tuta's people?

10       A.   No, except that they introduced themselves to us, and some of them

11    had some pictures on the cars, others nothing.

12       Q.   You say pictures on the cars.  Pictures of who?

13       A.   Yes, of that Tuta or -- I don't know.  I mean of their superior, I

14    guess.

15       Q.   Are you saying that there were photographs of Tuta on the cars?

16       A.   That's right.  On some, not on all of them.  Some would come

17    intoxicated and will have his picture on the car.

18       Q.   I wanted to ask you about the conditions generally and the

19    treatment you and the others received from these Tuta's people.  Can you

20    tell us about that?

21       A.   Yes, I can.  Very bad.

22       Q.   In what way?  Can you describe some of the things that occurred

23    during this period?

24       A.   I can.  They would open fire on houses, ill-treat people, lock you

25    up.  "Nobody must come out until we order you to."  They used offensive

Page 871

 1    language, fired at houses, fired at night or banged on doors.

 2       Q.   Did they express any interest in any of the women?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Can you tell us about that?

 5       A.   I can say what was going on in my house.  In the other house, we

 6    were not allowed to approach them, so I don't know.  Not a single girl was

 7    taken out of my house.

 8       Q.   Were there attempts made to take them out?  Did they come

 9    looking?

10       A.   They did, yes.  They'd come with their list and then read out and

11    look for them, and we said, "They're not here," and we tried to dodge it

12    so as to protect those girls.  We tried to hide them, and they -- we

13    wouldn't let them go out by day or by night out of the houses.  So that

14    from my house, not a single girl or young woman was taken away.

15       Q.   You referred to a list that they had.  Is this the list that was

16    made up at the Sovici school?

17       A.   Well, they had this list.  Where was it made?  I wouldn't know.

18       Q.   Now, at some point - I think you mentioned the 5th of May - you

19    and the others were removed from these seven houses; is that correct?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   And can you tell us how you first learned about that and tell us

22    about this process of taking and the others out of the houses?

23       A.   Well, they'd simply come and say, "Get ready.  You're leaving."

24       Q.   And then how were you actually transported out of there?

25       A.   In freight cars.  We were taken up to Risovac, that is, to a place

Page 872

 1    called Sovicka Vrata.  There were buses waiting for us, and we were made

 2    to -- ordered to get off.  And it was raining, snowing; the weather was

 3    terrible.  And that's it.

 4       Q.   Now, the word I was given in English was "freight cars."  Could

 5    you describe these vehicles which took you and the others up to Sovicka

 6    Vrata?

 7       A.   That's right.  Yes.  They were two FAP lorries.

 8       Q.   Were they covered or not covered?

 9       A.   Not covered.

10       Q.   And was there enough room to take all of you at the same time in

11    these two trucks?

12       A.   No.  He didn't take us all in one go.  It took four rounds to take

13    all of us over.

14       Q.   So then the people, say, who went in the first round up to Sovicka

15    Vrata, what were the conditions that they found up there while they waited

16    for the others to arrive?

17       A.   We found ourselves in the snow and in the rain.  No conditions to

18    speak of.

19       Q.   How long did you or the others wait up there until then you left

20    on the next part of your journey?

21       A.   Until the last civilian joined us.  I don't remember how long we

22    were there, but it was quite a long wait.

23       Q.   And just so the record's clear, we've been talking about this

24    group of 400 or so women and children and elderly.  Are these the same

25    people that we're talking about now who were transported up to Sovicka

Page 873

 1    Vrata?

 2       A.   Yes.  That's right, yes.

 3       Q.   Now, after everyone arrived at Sovicka Vrata, what's the next

 4    thing that happened?

 5       A.   They made us board buses and took us to Vakuf.

 6       Q.   Were you accompanied on the buses by any guards?

 7       A.   We were, yes.  There were four soldiers in each one of the buses,

 8    and they introduced themselves as Tuta's army.

 9       Q.   And then can you tell us approximately what time of day, or night

10    I think, you all got on the buses and then how long did you remain on

11    those buses until you got off?

12       A.   We took those buses at 6.00 in the afternoon.  We spent the night

13    on a mountain.  And after the daybreak, around the daybreak, we reached

14    Vakuf, because the buses would break down every now and then, and they

15    were pushing a knee to those buses.  And when they filled those buses over

16    the capacity, the buses would break down and that was that.

17       Q.   So these buses were overcrowded?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And you say you went to Vakuf.  Did you actually go into the city

20    or the town or were you -- what were the conditions in the place where you

21    got off the bus?

22       A.   None that one could speak of.  In the middle of the road.  We were

23    simply dumped in the middle of the road.  They didn't take us into the

24    town, into Gornji Vakuf.  They left us on a hill.  And then it was up to

25    everyone to fend for himself, to find accommodation or something.  We

Page 874

 1    reached the town on foot.  Vakuf, I mean.  You had to go somewhere.

 2       Q.   When they put you on the buses in this place, did those soldiers

 3    say anything to you and to the others before they left?

 4       A.   They did, yes.

 5       Q.   And what did they say?

 6       A.   "There you go.  You're going over to Alija's.  Let him take care

 7    of his nationals."

 8            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. Fourmy, I have no further questions.

 9            Thank you, Witness C.

10            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor.

11            Witness C, you are now going to answer questions which are going

12    to be put to you by Mr. Krsnik or maybe Ms. Lasan.

13            Yes, Ms. Lasan.  Plan for a break around 3.20, 3.25.  So you can

14    organise your cross-examination accordingly.  Your witness.

15            So, Witness C, you will now be answering questions from the

16    Defence.  Thank you.

17                          Cross-examined by Ms. Lasan:

18       Q.   Good afternoon, Mrs. C.

19       A.   Good afternoon.

20       Q.   Would you be kind enough to look in my direction as the two of us

21    will be communicating.  So if you could look at me.

22       A.   Which side should I turn to?

23       Q.   To the left, where you're looking now.  Here I am.  Thank you very

24    much.

25            I know it's not enjoyable to be in your position, but I shall try

Page 875

 1    and be -- to be as brief as possible so that we can finish with the

 2    cross-examination today.  According to the instructions given to me by the

 3    Presiding Officer, I will limit my questions to the scope of the

 4    examination-in-chief by the Prosecutor, but I may focus on certain matters

 5    which may be of greater interest to us.

 6            I would like to ask you to be kind enough to tell us how large

 7    your family was or exactly how many members you had a day or two before

 8    the attack.

 9       A.   Four.

10       Q.   In answer to a question from the Prosecution, you said you had a

11    husband and two sons; is that right?

12       A.   Yes.

13            MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me --

14            MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] Allow me to repeat --

15            MR. STRINGER:  May I ask if we're going to ask questions about her

16    family, information which might enable others outside to identify the

17    witness beyond the pseudonym that she's been given, could we go perhaps

18    into private session for this part of the testimony, Mr. Fourmy?  I'm not

19    objecting to the question, but I'm just suggesting it may be better to go

20    into private session for this part of it.

21            MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] I think that will not be necessary.

22    Thank you for cautioning me.  I will not be mentioning the names of family

23    members.  I intend very briefly to question the witness about her family,

24    and there is no need for the witness to leave the courtroom.

25            In answer to your questions, the witness told us that one son was

Page 876

 1    visiting in Mostar, and her husband and other son went to the woods a day

 2    before the 17th of April.  I would like to ask the witness about her

 3    husband and son who went into the woods.

 4       Q.   Could the lady tell me where they went in the woods, that is?

 5       A.   They just took shelter from the shelling.  They didn't go far from

 6    the house.

 7       Q.   Will you tell me how come they didn't take you with them to

 8    shelter from the shelling?

 9       A.   I didn't want to go.

10       Q.   So you remained at home of your own free will because you so

11    decided during the shelling?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Tell me, where exactly were you in your house?

14       A.   I was in my house.

15       Q.   I have never been to your house so I don't know what it consists

16    of.  Could you tell us kindly a few words about your house and where

17    exactly you were in that house?

18       A.   I was in the sitting room on the ground floor.

19       Q.   Is there a cellar to your house or a basement?

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 877

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, will you please

23    redact from page 103, line 11, to page 104, line 13, inclusive, please.

24            Excuse us, Ms. Lasan, for this technical interruption, but you may

25    proceed now.

Page 878

 1            MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2       Q.   Tell me, please, Mrs. C, when your husband and son took shelter in

 3    the woods, did your son take his gun with him?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Could you tell us what kind of gun it was?

 6       A.   I don't know much about weapons, I'm afraid.  One of them had an

 7    ordinary rifle and one had a machine-gun, but they never fired from them.

 8    There was no need.

 9       Q.   If I understand you correctly, you're talking about two different

10    types of weapons, a rifle and a machine-gun, saying that one of them had

11    one and the other the other?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Tell us, please, who had what?

14       A.   One had one and the other the other.  I don't have to give you

15    names.

16       Q.   You need not tell me the names, just tell me the persons involved.

17       A.   The older one had a rifle and the younger one a machine-gun.

18       Q.   If I may infer from your answer, you just said that your husband

19    and your son were there.  Do you mean the older one was your husband and

20    the younger one was your son?

21       A.   No.  My husband was a civilian.  He didn't have a rifle.

22       Q.   So that would mean that you're including now a third person as a

23    person who, with your husband and son, went to the woods?

24       A.   No.  I said that my younger son was at my sister's in Mostar at

25    the time of the attack.

Page 879

 1       Q.   I wasn't referring to a younger son.  Who was the third person who

 2    was with your husband and son?  So you went with them carrying a weapon?

 3       A.   No, no.

 4       Q.   I'll come back to those weapons.  Thank you for the time being.

 5            I think there is no dispute between us and we can conclude and

 6    agree that your son had a weapon.  Could you tell me where your son got

 7    that weapon from?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Please do that.

10       A.   They were given by Stipe Kopilas when the army and the HVO were

11    together.

12       Q.   Tell me, please, who Stipe Kopilas belonged to; the army or the

13    HVO?

14       A.   The HVO.

15       Q.   Since you told us that they got the rifle when the HVO and the BH

16    army were together, can I infer then that there came a time when they

17    separated?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   When did this happen, if you know?

20       A.   I don't know.

21       Q.   Do you know whether that was before the 17th of April?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Tell me, please, do you have any knowledge as to whether your son,

24    once the HVO and the army separated, had to return that rifle,

25    machine-gun, whichever, to Mr. Stipe Pole, who gave him the weapon -- no,

Page 880

 1    sorry, Kopilas, or to the HVO?

 2       A.   To the HVO.

 3       Q.   So he did have to return it to the HVO?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Do you know why he didn't do that?

 6       A.   He did do that.

 7       Q.   If I understood correctly, he did it on the 17th of April, but you

 8    said that the separation between the HVO and the BH army occurred before

 9    that date.

10       A.   Of course.

11       Q.   Thank you.  When your husband and son went to the woods, you

12    stayed in the house alone, completely alone?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Could you tell us all the things you did between 9.00 in the

15    morning and 2.00 p.m., during the time that the shelling went on,

16    according to what you said.

17       A.   When you're a woman, you surely know what you do in your house.

18    You know what your work consists of.

19       Q.   Mrs. C, I am a woman like you, and I know what the household

20    chores are, but I also know that we don't do the same things every day.

21    One day we do the washing, another day we do the ironing, and so on.

22    After all, this was rather a special situation, judging by the sounds that

23    were reaching you.

24       A.   Yes.  But you still had to clean up.  You had to feed the

25    livestock, you had to prepare lunch.

Page 881

 1       Q.   I see.  So you were moving around the house, cleaning up.  Fine.

 2    Thank you.

 3            Tell me, in answer to a question from the Prosecution today, you

 4    said that you knew where the shelling was coming from?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Tell us, please, how do you know?

 7       A.   If I didn't know, I wouldn't have said what I said.

 8       Q.   Let me try and help you in answering my question.  You heard the

 9    sound of the shells.

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And on the basis of the sound, you judged that this could be

12    coming from the direction of Risovac.

13       A.   And I saw a tank shooting from a slope.  I had a good view, and

14    that is why I'm sure of what I'm saying.

15       Q.   You saw this through the window you mentioned?

16       A.   No.  I would go out.  In spite of everything, I would go out now

17    and then.

18       Q.   So you went out while the shelling went on?

19       A.   Yes.  Whenever there was a pause, I would go out to see what was

20    happening and then come back home, go back inside.

21       Q.   Tell me, Mrs. C, before the events of the 17th of April, did

22    anything change in the relationships between you and your Muslim

23    neighbours?

24       A.   I don't understand that question.

25       Q.   My question is:  You have normal relations with your neighbours,

Page 882

 1    Muslims.  Did anything out of the ordinary occur in relations within your

 2    ethnic community of neighbours?

 3       A.   I don't understand the question.  What do you mean?

 4       Q.   Let me rephrase it.  In answer to a question from the Prosecution,

 5    please confirm what I'm saying, if I'm right.  You said that a group of

 6    civilians, thereabouts 100 of them, a little before the 17th of April,

 7    left your area?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   You spoke about your own family that remained in Doljani.  Tell

10    us, did some other people stay on in Doljani?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   If some left and some remained, was there any conversation about

13    this?  How come that some people acted in one way and others in another?

14       A.   I think I explained and gave you an answer.  Those who were below

15    the checkpoint, they could get out.  Those who were behind the checkpoint,

16    they had no chance of getting away, not even of talking to each other or

17    meeting.

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21       Q.   Tell me, please, what happened to them?  Did they not come to

22    settle in your houses in that period?

23       A.   Yes.  They all came to our houses when the shelling started.

24       Q.   You mean the 17th of April?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 883

 1       Q.   When your husband and son responded to the call and returned from

 2    the woods to surrender their weapons, did they drop in to the house?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   They didn't?

 5       A.   No.  They were not allowed to.

 6       Q.   I mean to your house.

 7       A.   Not even to our house.

 8       Q.   Tell me, please, what time was it when they came, bringing their

 9    weapons?

10       A.   Around 4.00.  Something like that.

11       Q.   Would you please tell me, how did you know that they had come to

12    bring their weapons?

13       A.   Because I saw them.

14       Q.   You saw them?

15       A.   An HVO vehicle came.  I went out to see what they wanted.  And

16    when we went out, I saw this group of people and my husband and son among

17    them.

18       Q.   Will you tell me exactly where was it that your husband and son

19    handed over their weapons.

20       A.   On the road in front of the house.

21       Q.   Whose house?

22       A.   In front of Meho Junuzovic's house.

23       Q.   How far is Meho Junuzovic's house from your house?

24            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. Fourmy, I think -- again, I'd ask counsel be

25    careful.  Could I ask to go into private session so that I could make one

Page 884

 1    observation, Mr. Fourmy, very briefly?

 2            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] As you wish, Mr. Prosecutor.  And as

 3    the Defence wishes.  It is twenty past three.  Maybe we could have a break

 4    and resume in private session after the break.  I don't know how much more

 5    time Ms. Lasan needs for the cross-examination, but perhaps it would be

 6    more convenient to conduct this discussion with the witness not being

 7    present, but it's up to you.

 8            MR. STRINGER:  No, Mr. Fourmy, I think that we can easily have

 9    this discussion while the witness is more comfortably situated in the

10    witness room.

11            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] So I suggest we have a break until a

12    quarter to four.

13            Witness C, we're now going to have a break.  You can relax a

14    little outside this courtroom.  We will meet again at a quarter to four to

15    continue with the cross-examination, after which it will be the turn of

16    the Prosecutor.  So we'll see you again very soon.  Thank you.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

18            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] The hearing is suspended.  We will

19    meet again at a quarter to four.

20                          --- Recess taken at 3.24 p.m.

21                          --- On resuming at 3.45 p.m.

22                          [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 885











11  Pages 885-901 redacted.  Private session.















Page 902

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 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

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15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                          [Open session]

25            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We are back in open session.  Yes,

Page 903












 12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

 13   and the English transcripts.













Page 904

 1    Prosecutor, please go on.

 2            MR. BOS:   Thank you.

 3       Q.   Now, Witness D, let's move on to the 17th of April, 1993,

 4    Saturday, the 17th.  That's correct, isn't it?

 5       A.   Yes, it is.

 6       Q.   What happened on that day?

 7       A.   On the 17th of April, the attack began on the village at 8.15 in

 8    the morning.

 9       Q.   And you were at your husband's aunt's house; is that correct?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And your husband was there as well?

12       A.   He wasn't, no.

13       Q.   Do you know where your husband was at that time?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   Did you see your husband on that day?

16       A.   I did, after he was arrested, captured.

17       Q.   We'll get back to that.  Just let's talk about the attack.  What

18    did you see?  Did you see shelling?

19       A.   I did.

20       Q.   And from which directions came the shells; do you know?

21       A.   From behind our backs.

22       Q.   And where were the shells aimed at?

23       A.   The first two hit the hill of Pasje Stijene.  Others fell in the

24    village, hitting houses.

25       Q.   Were they hitting any particular houses, or was it ...

Page 905

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   What kind of houses?

 3       A.   I don't quite understand the question.

 4       Q.   Were these houses that were targeted, were these Muslim houses or

 5    Croat houses or both?

 6       A.   Only Muslim houses.

 7       Q.   At what time that day did the shelling stop?

 8       A.   Around five, around five in the afternoon.

 9       Q.   And do you know why it stopped?

10       A.   I don't.  I suppose because of the surrender.

11       Q.   So you're saying that the Muslim men surrendered around that time?

12       A.   That's right.  Around five or 50 minutes past five in the

13    afternoon.

14       Q.   How did you know that they surrendered?  Did your husband come

15    back to the house?

16       A.   Yes.  He was taken from the house.

17       Q.   At what time did he come back to the house on that day?

18       A.   Around at 20 to five.

19       Q.   And then what happened to him when he was back at the house?  Was

20    he taken by soldiers?

21       A.   After five, around 15 past five, a group of soldiers burst into

22    the house.  They ordered all men to leave the house and head for the local

23    school.

24       Q.   And what kind of soldiers were these soldiers that were taking

25    your husband and the other men?

Page 906

 1       A.   Those were the soldiers of the Croat Defence Council and the

 2    Croatian army.

 3       Q.   How could you recognise that these were HV0 soldiers and HV

 4    soldiers?

 5       A.   Because they had patches on their uniforms.

 6       Q.   Now, you said that the men were taken to the school by the

 7    soldiers.

 8       A.   That's right.

 9       Q.   How many men altogether were taken to the school; do you know?

10       A.   I don't.

11       Q.   You don't.  And did the soldiers who took your husband and the

12    other men, did they mistreat the men that were taken to the school?

13       A.   Yes, they did.

14       Q.   Now, you remained at the house, I presume.

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And the next day you were still at your husband's aunt's house?

17       A.   I was, yes.

18       Q.   And what happened the next day?

19       A.   Nothing special.  We stayed in the house.  Three soldiers were

20    guarding us, and without their permission, we could not leave the house.

21       Q.   Was your house searched on that day?

22       A.   It was, yes.

23       Q.   How did that go about?  Did soldiers -- could you describe how the

24    search took place?

25       A.   Well, in the -- in the nastiest way mentionable.  What was up

Page 907

 1    ended down.

 2       Q.   And do you know what they were looking for?

 3       A.   They thought we were hiding some weapons.

 4       Q.   And was this the only day that -- the only time that your house

 5    was searched or was it searched on other occasions as well?

 6       A.   Once in that house.

 7       Q.   Only once.  Now, the next day you still remain in the house, is

 8    that correct, on the 19th of April?

 9       A.   Yes, it is.

10       Q.   Now, let's move on to the 20th of April then.  What happened on

11    the 20th of April?

12       A.   On the 20th of April, three soldiers came and told us that we all

13    had to come out of the house and go to the house of a local villager.

14       Q.   Whose house was that?

15       A.   It was (redacted) house.

16       Q.   When you were taken to (redacted) house, with how many other

17    women and how many other people were taken to house?  Were you alone or

18    was there a whole group of people taken there?

19       A.   There was a large number of people, yes.

20       Q.   Do you know the number?

21       A.   No, I can't.

22       Q.   And what kind of people were these?  Women and children and

23    elderly men; is that the type of persons who went there?

24       A.   Yes, that's right.

25       Q.   Now, while you were standing in front of (redacted) house,

Page 908

 1    did you see anything particular in the village at that time?

 2       A.   I did.

 3       Q.   What did you see?

 4       A.   The burning of Muslim houses had begun.

 5       Q.   Can you explain a little bit better what you mean by "the burning

 6    of Muslim houses began"?  Who did it and what exactly did they do?

 7       A.   Hah.  Well, who did it.  Well, everybody knows who did that.

 8    Members of the HVO and the Croatian army did that, and soldiers wearing

 9    black uniforms.

10       Q.   And those soldiers wearing black uniforms, these were not soldiers

11    from either the HVO or the HV?  You didn't recognise those uniforms?

12       A.   They did not have any patches.

13       Q.   And were these soldiers only lighting Muslim houses or also Croat

14    houses?

15       A.   Muslim only.

16       Q.   And what else did they do except for burning houses?  Did they --

17    did they say anything or scream anything or ...

18       A.   Singing.  Singing, screaming as they put fire to houses.

19       Q.   What were they singing?

20       A.   Well, I don't remember.

21       Q.   Now, while you were standing in front of (redacted) house,

22    what happened to the group of people you were with?  Did they search you

23    at that time?

24       A.   They did, yes.  Yes, all of us.

25       Q.   And the soldiers who searched you, did they say anything to you as

Page 909

 1    well?

 2       A.   They were looking for some sharp tools, such as knives.

 3       Q.   Now, after you were being searched, where were you taken next?

 4       A.   They told us to take along all that we could.  If we could, to

 5    even load the houses on our backs, because we would never be coming back,

 6    and then they took us towards the school.

 7       Q.   So they said that you should take all your belongings, but were

 8    you allowed to go back to your house to get your belongings?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   So you said you were all lined up, and then where were you brought

11    next?

12       A.   To the local school.

13       Q.   Now, when you were on your way to the school, did you hear

14    anything?

15       A.   Yes; bursts of fire.

16       Q.   From which direction came this burst of fire?

17       A.   From the school.

18       Q.   Now, what happened when you arrived at the school?  I think you

19    asked the soldiers something.  Can you tell us?

20       A.   Yes.  I asked for permission to use the toilet.  A soldier called

21    Velimir Dojcinovic, called Velja, gave me permission.  I headed towards

22    the toilet.  I was stopped by a soldier who cursed God, my balija mother,

23    saying, "Where do you think you're going?"  Behind the school, there were

24    four dead bodies.  He said, "It doesn't matter whether you see them or

25    not.  You will disappear anyway."

Page 910

 1       Q.   Okay.  Well, let's clarify this a little further.  So you said you

 2    were -- you went to the toilet, and you got behind the school to an area

 3    where the rest of the group didn't come?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   And you said that you saw four bodies laying on the ground.

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Were they laying on their back or on their front?

 8       A.   On their backs.

 9       Q.   And did you recognise the bodies?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Who were the bodies?

12       A.   Hasan Rados, Ismet Cilic, Ekrem Tasic, and Salem Skampo.

13       Q.   Are these all local Muslims from Sovici?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And is it correct that next to the group of bodies there were four

16    heavily-armed HVO soldiers?  Is that what you saw?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Let me just ask you one more question about the bodies.  Did the

19    man -- did these bodies -- did they all have uniforms on?

20       A.   Only one of them.

21       Q.   And the other three were wearing civilian clothes?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   All right.  Well, what happened next?  So you were brought back in

24    the line with the rest of the group, and were you, were you then --

25       A.   Yes.

Page 911

 1       Q.   Did you then get into the school?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   And do you know how big the group was?  Can you estimate how many

 4    people were then brought into the school?

 5       A.   About 540 were put up in two classrooms.

 6       Q.   So how do you know that it's 540, which is quite an exact number?

 7       A.   They counted us for fun.  A soldier was standing at the door, and

 8    he was counting and laughing, of course.

 9       Q.   And this was -- was this an HVO soldier or an HV soldier who ...

10       A.   Of the HVO.

11       Q.   Now, around what time of the day are we at the moment; can you

12    remember?

13       A.   When we were brought to the school?

14       Q.   Yes.

15       A.   It was between --

16            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Prosecutor.  I'm sorry

17    for interrupting.  There may be a problem of comprehension in the answer

18    of the witness.  Who was the soldier at the door who was counting the

19    people entering the school?  Could you check again whether that was a

20    soldier of the HVO or the HV, please.

21       A.   I was saying that it was an HVO soldier.

22            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23            MR. BOS:   Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

24       Q.   Yes.  So my question was, do you remember what time of the day it

25    was when you actually got into the school?

Page 912

 1       A.   Between 2.00 and 3.00 in the afternoon.

 2       Q.   And when you were at the school, at one moment did you hear

 3    anything?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   What did you hear?

 6       A.   An explosion, an explosion.

 7       Q.   And did you later find out what this explosion was?

 8       A.   The explosion was the destruction of the Muslim mosque.

 9       Q.   How did you know that this was the destruction of the Muslim

10    mosque?

11       A.   A group of soldiers in the yard in front of the school shouted out

12    as one, "There goes the mosque."

13       Q.   And they were shouting at the people in the school?  They were

14    shouting to tell you in fact what happened?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   How did you feel when you actually heard that the mosque was blown

17    up?

18       A.   Not well at all.  Not nicely.

19       Q.   Would you describe a little bit the conditions in the school?  You

20    said that you were there with 540 people, all women and elder and

21    children, and you were divided up in two classrooms.  Is that correct?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   How big was the classroom you were in?

24       A.   Not sufficiently large because we were sitting on top of one

25    another, either on each other's heads or backs.

Page 913

 1       Q.   And you were there with both your children, your three-year-old

 2    son and your baby girl?

 3       A.   Yes, yes.

 4       Q.   Can you explain how that went?  I suppose, you know, the baby need

 5    to have clean diapers and need to be nurtured.  Was that all possible

 6    there?

 7       A.   The conditions were terrible, frightening.  I couldn't change the

 8    baby's diapers.  I poured water.  I gave the baby water just to keep it

 9    alive.

10       Q.   Could you use toilet facility?

11       A.   Yes, if the HVO soldiers gave us permission.

12       Q.   Now, how were the -- how were you and the others treated?

13    Let's first say, for how long did you stay at the school?

14       A.   Two days and two nights.

15       Q.   And how were you treated by the soldiers during that period?

16       A.   As they wished.

17       Q.   Were people mistreated?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Can you tell us what happened to your sister -- your

20    sister-in-law?  Maybe without mentioning her name since ...

21       A.   She was taken out on a number of occasions, beaten up.  They would

22    bring her back into the room in semiconscious condition, telling her that

23    whatever she had seen and heard that she should keep to herself;

24    otherwise, she would get killed.

25       Q.   Was she taken, just taken out on one occasion or more, on several

Page 914

 1    occasions?

 2       A.   Several occasions.

 3       Q.   And do you know who took her out?

 4       A.   Velimir Dojcinovic, also known as Vela.

 5       Q.   So now you said you stayed there for two days.  What happened --

 6    so that brings us to the 22nd of April.  Where were you taken on the 22nd?

 7       A.   On the 22nd of April at about 11.00 in the morning, a car came for

 8    our group.  We were boarded into that vehicle, and we went towards Kraj or

 9    Junuzovici.

10       Q.   I now am going to show you a photograph which I would like you to

11    look at, and that will be exhibit number 6.30.  Can you see it on the

12    screen?

13       A.   Yes, yes.

14       Q.   Do you recognise these houses?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Which houses --

17            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Prosecutor.  Is it

18    6.30 or 6.13?  I was going to correct the interpreter, but I think they

19    were right.  It is 6.13?

20            MR. BOS:   Yes, one three, yes.

21            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] One three, yes.  Because in the

22    transcript we see 6.30.

23            MR. BOS:   Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

24       Q.   Now, Witness D, so do you recognise these houses as the Junuzovic

25    houses -- Junuzovici houses?

Page 915

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   What I would like you to do is take the red marker, which you're

 3    going to get from the usher, and indicate on the photograph, maybe by

 4    putting a circle around the house where you stayed, where you in fact were

 5    brought on that day, on the 22nd of April.

 6       A.   [Marks].

 7       Q.   Now, Witness, I see you've circled a house without a roof.  At the

 8    time you were taken there, did the house have a roof?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And all the other houses on that photograph who are without roofs

11    also had roofs?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   So the whole group of women, elderly men, and children, the 540 --

14    all 540 were all moved to the Junuzovici houses?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And over how many houses were -- was this group then divided?

17       A.   Six houses.

18       Q.   And do you recall with how many people you stayed in the house you

19    were put in?

20       A.   There was 13 of us in a room three by three.

21       Q.   And how many rooms did the house have?

22       A.   Three.

23       Q.   Now, while you were at the Junuzovici houses, or Junuzovici house,

24    how were you treated there?  Was your house -- was your house guarded?

25       A.   Yes.  All the houses were guarded.

Page 916

 1       Q.   So you were not able to go out of the house?

 2       A.   No, we couldn't go out.  But they could come in whenever they

 3    wanted to.  We didn't -- we were not allowed to keep the door locked.

 4       Q.   And when you said "they could come in," you're referring to

 5    soldiers?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   And why would they come in?  What would they do?

 8       A.   They would take girls out.

 9       Q.   So at the house where you stayed, girls were taken out on several

10    occasions?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   And would these girls later on be brought back?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   And what do you think would have happened with them?  When they

15    would be coming back, how would they look like?

16       A.   Far from nice.

17       Q.   Would they have bruises or were they maltreated?  Could you see

18    anything on their body or not?

19       A.   Yes.  Yes.

20       Q.   I'd like to refer to you at one moment in the period that you were

21    staying at the Junuzovici house.  At one moment you overheard a

22    conversation between some soldiers?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Can you tell the Court what those soldiers were saying?

25       A.   They were saying all kinds of things, that they should all be

Page 917

 1    killed, that they should all be forced out, lined up against a wall,

 2    executed.  Terrible things they were saying.  It's hard to repeat.

 3       Q.   Did they refer to the name Tuta?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   What did they say about Tuta?

 6       A.   In answer to our questions as to why all this was happening, what

 7    was the reason, was it only because we were Muslims, then we would get a

 8    simple answer, "Tuta's orders."

 9       Q.   Now, at what time did you leave the Junuzovici houses, what date?

10       A.   On the 4th of May.

11       Q.   And what happened on the 4th of May?

12       A.   On the 4th of May, they called us out on a loudspeaker.  They told

13    us to come out.  They informed us to pack our things and to wait for buses

14    which would come to pick us up and that we would be transported to the

15    Sovicka gates, Sovicka Vrata.

16       Q.   So how many buses were there to pick you up from the Junuzovici

17    houses?  How many buses or ...

18       A.   There were two buses and a truck.

19       Q.   And did these two buses and the truck take all 540 people straight

20    to Sovicka Vrata?

21       A.   No.  No.  Thirty people boarded one bus, 30 people at a time.  The

22    others would wait until that group was transported and then the buses

23    would come back to pick them up.

24       Q.   And what were the weather conditions on that day?

25       A.   The weather was awful.  It was raining.

Page 918

 1       Q.   And you all had to wait outside?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Now, when the whole group was taken to -- when the whole group was

 4    there at Sovicka Vrata, what happened next?

 5       A.   Then they put us on eight buses, two trucks with canvas cover, and

 6    in the night, at 21.50, we left Sovicka Vrata.  We went across a mountain

 7    in the direction of Gornji Vakuf.

 8       Q.   And what were the conditions in the bus?

 9       A.   Terrible.

10       Q.   Did you have -- did you have your baby at the bus as well, I

11    presume.

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And what happened to her during that ride?

14       A.   As the road was bad, it was a mountain track and there were a lot

15    of holes along the way, and the bus was bumping up and down, and my baby

16    jumped out of my hands.  So that fell out of my hands.  So that --

17       Q.   Did she --

18       A.   -- that's what happened.

19       Q.   Did she suffer an injury from that?

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22       Q.   And was it treated successfully?

23       A.   Thank God, yes.

24            MR. BOS:  I'm almost done with my examination-in-chief, but just

25    for the last couple of questions, I would like to go into private session,

Page 919

 1    if that's okay, Mr. Fourmy.

 2            MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Two minutes and thirty-five seconds

 3    on the outside, Mr. Prosecutor.  I'm joking, of course.

 4            Madam Registrar.

 5                          [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 920











11  Pages 920-924 redacted.  Private session.















Page 925

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.09 p.m., to

 6                          be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day of July,

 7                          2001, at 9.15 a.m.