Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 926

1 Thursday, 26 July 2001

2 [Depositions Hearing]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.17 a.m.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning. Please be seated. Can

7 we have Witness D brought in, please.

8 Mr. Krsnik, good morning.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good morning.

10 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Can we have the witness brought in

11 for your cross-examination.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The cross-examination will be

13 conducted by my co-counsel, Ms. Lasan.

14 [The witness takes the stand]


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness D.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

19 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Please make yourself comfortable. I

20 hope you're not too tired this morning. It is the turn of the Defence to

21 ask questions, and it will be Ms. Lasan.

22 Your witness, Ms. Lasan.

23 Cross-examined by Ms. Lasan:

24 Q. [Interpretation] [No translation].

25 A. Good morning.

Page 927

1 Q. Good morning, Witness D.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. I had to repeat my greeting because of the transcript. I will

4 repeat something that you heard yesterday by way of introduction as a part

5 of your testimony was completed yesterday, but I would like to remind you

6 that you took a solemn declaration promising to tell the truth, and that

7 you would, indeed, be telling only the truth. For us to complete our

8 examination, I have reminded you of that because that is precisely the

9 kind of answer I expect of you in harmony with the solemn declaration that

10 you made.

11 Yesterday the gentleman from the Prosecution asked you questions

12 that were mostly leading, and you briefly confirmed the statements made in

13 his questions. I will be questioning you in a slightly different way. I

14 will be putting questions to you and you will have to give us more

15 detailed answers, because we feel that the way in which the questions were

16 put to you was not quite appropriate.

17 But let me start with the questions. Tell me, madam, when exactly

18 did you arrive in The Hague?

19 A. On the 21st.

20 Q. How many times did you meet with our colleagues from the

21 Prosecution until yesterday?

22 A. Once.

23 Q. Before you arrived in The Hague, how many times did you meet with

24 representatives of the Prosecution in connection with your testimony?

25 A. Twice.

Page 928

1 Q. Did you give statements to anyone else about these events?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So may I take it that you spoke a total of three times with

4 representatives of the OTP?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When was your last conversation with them?

7 A. On Tuesday afternoon.

8 Q. Tuesday afternoon? That was the 24th of July; right?

9 A. The 24th, yes.

10 Q. After the 24th of July, you did not talk to representatives of the

11 OTP?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you. Let me now go back to the subject of your deposition

14 yesterday. (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

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24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 929

1 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] Could we please go into private

2 session, because my questions may be linked to some names. So for the

3 sake of safety, I would suggest that we remain in private session until

4 the end of this deposition.

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.

6 MR. BOS: Yes, Mr. Fourmy. I would really prefer that we would go

7 into private session if she's going to ask about where the witness lived

8 before she came to Sovici.

9 MR. SCOTT: And lines 18 through 23 should be redacted.

10 MR. BOS: Yes. And I would request for a redaction.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

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Page 973

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21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you tell us where

24 are we as regards exhibits and what is their status, because that is

25 something that I believe we should do before the next witness comes.

Page 974

1 Thank you.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Fourmy, as far as I know and as far as my

3 records show, the Defence has tendered -- well, the Defence for

4 Mr. Naletilic has tendered nine exhibits: D1/2 is confidential, D1/6 is

5 confidential, D1/7 is confidential, D1/8 is confidential, and D1/9 is also

6 confidential, and that is because of the protection of the witnesses.

7 The Defence for Mr. Martinovic has tendered, I believe, two

8 documents, and they are not confidential, and neither are the

9 Prosecution's exhibits. I think they've tendered about seven or eight

10 with the different numbers that we've agreed to.

11 There's just one other issue I'd like to raise while I'm standing.

12 I would like to remind the parties that we must have official

13 translations. We must have an English translation and a B/C/S, if that's

14 what you're tendering, to be submitted when you're handing in the

15 documents. This is something very important. And I realise that the

16 Defence doesn't have necessarily copies of English, but I urge you to work

17 with the Prosecution and get what you need before we tender those

18 documents to the Court.

19 Also, I remind you to - excuse me - have the requisite copies that

20 are needed: one for the OTP, one for the Registry, one for Mr. Fourmy, and

21 three for the booths. They need those copies in order to translate. They

22 cannot do it just by looking at the screen. They're subject to making

23 more errors.

24 So I would request that this be handled, and next week I would

25 like to see that we would run smoothly with the tendering of these

Page 975

1 documents. Thank you.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar.

3 Yes, Mr. Par.

4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] If I may, only a minute in relation to

5 copies in English. So that it doesn't arise as a problem again, I'd like

6 to make a suggestion. It is very difficult for us to have English

7 translations ready. I'm referring to the statements that we present

8 during the examinations. The reason is that we simply did not get -- do

9 not get them in advance, sufficiently in advance. On the other hand, the

10 Prosecutor has been kind enough to give us their copies of these

11 statements. But we cannot ask for these copies in advance, sometimes for

12 technical reasons and sometimes we do not know if we shall want to -- we

13 shall be wanting to tender any such statement into evidence.

14 And in view of that, we really cannot satisfy the request of the

15 Registry to have the translations in advance. But I'd like to suggest

16 something, if our learned friends agree with that: As they have all those

17 statements in English, perhaps for the week when we already have a list of

18 witnesses, and I know we shall have five or six witnesses, perhaps they

19 could give us these statements in English for all those witnesses so that

20 then we could get -- so that we could prepare in advance for what the

21 Registry is asking us to do. I hope that I was clear enough.

22 So, in other words, I'm asking the Prosecution for a week in

23 advance, say, for five or six witnesses, to give us the statements of

24 these witnesses in English. We shall copy them. We shall prepare that,

25 and this perhaps could be a way to solve this technical problem. Thank

Page 976

1 you.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Par, if I may take the liberty, I

3 think that this idea runs along the ideas that I had, and that was

4 something that I wanted to address to the Prosecution, but it is too late

5 because the Prosecution has had the same idea.

6 Prosecutor, are you about to tell us that you will indeed

7 endeavour to submit the English translations of the witnesses prior to the

8 appearance of these witnesses and sometime in advance?

9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I must say I'm frankly surprised that the

10 English translations were not provided if they weren't, and without

11 meaning to question counsel's representations, I will just seek to verify

12 what the exact status from our office's records show. However, in any

13 event, we're happy to provide English translations and we'll seek -- in

14 fact, there's already been conversations off the record that we would seek

15 to provide a full set of English translations of statements, and if that

16 wasn't done to date, then we'll correct that in the immediate future.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I believe we've

18 agreed -- reached an agreement on this matter. And now, Prosecutor, can

19 we move on to the next witness? He also asked for protection measures,

20 that is, the pseudonym and facial and voice distortion. Is there a

21 request for some other -- for some other protection measures? That is,

22 the only other possibilities are a private session or a closed session.

23 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, there is no request for additional

24 protection. In fact, on further discussion, the witness does not

25 persist -- does not insist on voice distortion, which I know sometimes is

Page 977

1 technically more difficult, and the witness is prepared to go forward on

2 the basis of a pseudonym and only his facial image distortion.

3 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym for this witness will be E.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar.

5 Mr. Usher, will you please bring Witness E in, and who will be

6 making his deposition under pseudonym and with his -- with image

7 distortion.

8 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, while the witness is being brought in, I

9 keep meaning to do this but we always get busy with moving on. I do

10 have -- we have a binder for you and a binder for the Registry of the same

11 binder of exhibits that we gave to the Defence counsel yesterday

12 afternoon. So what I am about to do, with the case manager's help, is to

13 give you a copy, a set, and give the Registry a set, please.

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Good morning. Can you hear me?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] You have asked for protection

18 measures. They are granted, so that you will have a pseudonym and your

19 face will be distorted on the screen. Your pseudonym is "Witness E." So

20 do not bother when I address you only as Witness E, and both parties will

21 also address you in the same fashion.

22 Please be seated -- before you sit down, we shall ask you to make

23 the solemn declaration which the usher will give you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and good morning to

25 everybody in this courtroom.

Page 978

1 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

2 and nothing but the truth.

3 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated,

4 Witness E. Please make yourself comfortable.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Just make yourself at ease. Yes, by

9 the microphones. Thank you.

10 The usher will now give you a sheet of paper with your name. Do

11 not say your name aloud. Just tell us simply if that is your name. Is

12 it?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think that the

15 Prosecutor has already explained to you how things happen here. I'm not a

16 Judge. I am what we call here a Presiding Officer, but all that you say

17 here will be recorded and will make part of a transcript. It will allow

18 the Judges to judge everything that you have said and also to judge for

19 themselves your credibility.

20 What I have to ask you, Witness E, is to make your answers as

21 precise, as clear, as brief as possible to the questions that will be

22 asked of you first by the Prosecution, then by the Defence. There are two

23 Defence teams for each one of the accused. I do not know whether both

24 teams will have questions of you or only one of the Defence teams, but

25 after that, if the Prosecutor wishes to do so, he may also -- he will be

Page 979

1 entitled to ask you some additional questions.

2 So this is the way in which we shall proceed, and unless you have

3 some questions, we shall give the floor to the Prosecutor.

4 Yes, please, Mr. Scott.

5 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. I did not want to interrupt

6 these additional preliminaries, but again without losing the opportunity

7 again, I would like to tender these binders to you and to the Registry,

8 please.

9 Examined by Mr. Scott:

10 Q. Witness E, good morning.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. By way of background, Witness, let me just indicate -- is it

13 correct that you are a person of Muslim ethnicity and you were born in the

14 city of Mostar in Bosnia-Herzegovina, that you lived in Mostar, in fact,

15 all of your life up until the -- approximately June of 1993? Is that

16 correct?

17 A. If I may, just a minor correction. I am a Bosniak, but Islam is

18 my faith.

19 Q. Very well. I appreciate that. And you lived at the time about --

20 in the spring of 1993, early summer 1993, in what's sometimes called West

21 Mostar; is that correct?

22 A. It is.

23 Q. Can you please tell the Chamber -- again, there's going to be a

24 few questions here by way of background before we get to the main part of

25 your testimony, but I think it would be helpful.

Page 980

1 Would you tell the Chamber, during the spring and summer of 1993,

2 were you involved in any sort of a local cultural group or society that

3 was promoting ethnic unity and reconciliation in the area of Herzegovina?

4 THE INTERPRETER: The witness nods his head. Can he be asked to

5 say it?


7 Q. Witness, you're going to have to help us a bit. You're just

8 nodding your head. We have to make a record, so if you can give a verbal

9 response. You may want to sit -- maybe lean a little bit more into the

10 microphones.

11 A. Yes. That was a cultural society of the Muslims called the

12 Preporod Renaissance, and I can say that Friar Andrija Nikic was also our

13 member. He was also a member of the Croat cultural society. And another

14 one who was the president of the Serb cultural society, the Prosveta,

15 Enlightenment. That is, we had members of other ethnicities.

16 I can speak in my own name, but I can also say that our chief

17 objective was to find the best way of communication amongst different

18 ethnic groups whilst -- and avoid problems which could arise simply

19 because of the lack of understanding.

20 During the war, we issued a paper dealing with culture and

21 cultural issues called Behar. We had an orchestra which was also called

22 Behar, and we were also engaged in the education of children who had been

23 dislocated from Bosnia -- from Croatia to Bosnia because of the combat

24 operations there.

25 Q. All right. Witness E, two follow-up questions to that. Then if I

Page 981

1 understand you correctly, in fact this was a multi-ethnic organisation or

2 had members from different ethnicities who were seeking to provide for

3 multi-ethnic peace and, again, reconciliation in the area; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. And can we understand from that that as a result of this close

7 involvement of yours, that perhaps you, even more than perhaps some other

8 persons, followed these kinds of events and issues with some degree of

9 attention?

10 A. Well, I can say that, yes, I followed all the political

11 developments in the town and around it as far, of course, as I could, as

12 information was accessible to me.

13 Q. All right. Now, moving forward, can you tell the Chamber, please

14 - I'm directing your attention to about June or July 1992 - do you

15 remember the name of a particular officer who was appointed over the -- to

16 head the defence of Mostar at that time?

17 A. Yes. It was Jasmin Jaganjac.

18 Q. And can you tell the Chamber who appointed, to your knowledge, who

19 appointed Mr. Jaganjac in this position?

20 A. As far as I could learn, he had been appointed by the Croatian

21 army.

22 Q. And is it fair to say, then, in subsequent time that at that time,

23 the HVO and together with Muslim units were able to liberate the area of

24 Mostar in fighting against at that time the Serbs; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 982

1 Q. And can you tell us, what was the status, if any, of the armed

2 conflict between specifically the Croats and the Serbs in the area of

3 Mostar after that time, if there was continuing conflict?

4 A. I think the thing had been agreed in advance. There was a

5 cease-fire which had been agreed somewhere about which -- and at a meeting

6 about which the public in Mostar had not been informed.

7 Q. Let me ask the question perhaps a little bit differently. In your

8 experience, having been living -- excuse me, since you were living in

9 Mostar at that time, did there continue to be substantial armed conflict

10 between the Croats and Serbs in the Mostar area after that time?

11 A. No, no. There was no conflict down there. Not major conflicts.

12 Yes, there was sporadic incidents, but not a major conflict.

13 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention forward to October 1992. Can

14 you tell us about any events that happened around the city of Prozor at

15 that time that you were aware of.

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 Q. All right. Now, Witness E, just out of precaution, I'm going

23 to -- even though you've been given protection measures, I'm going to

24 caution you about using names of any family members that might tend to

25 identify, perhaps might tend to identify you. So I don't think so much

Page 983












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Page 984

1 that the current answer was particularly problematic, but if you can just

2 keep that in mind, please. So you --

3 A. Thank you.

4 Q. I'm sorry. You learned around this time, then, that there had

5 been an HVO attack on the Muslim population in Prozor in about October of

6 1992; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. Now, around this time, did you learn -- did it come to your

9 attention that it was, at least among the Croat leadership at that time -

10 I'm not suggesting for a moment that it was all Croats - but in terms of

11 the Bosnian Croat leadership at that time, did any political or military

12 view come -- that they held come to your attention?

13 A. In connection with those events, a mixed commission of the BH army

14 and the HVO was formed which never worked effectively, nor did they inform

15 the public about the moves they took. However, according to subsequent

16 developments, this was the beginning of a kind of settling of accounts

17 which clearly was politically planned from some other centre.

18 Q. And can you tell the Chamber, please, to your knowledge, what was

19 the stated or expressed view of this Bosnian Croat leadership towards the

20 existence of two armies, say, or two governments in the area of

21 Herzegovina?

22 A. I heard that from a couple of leaders of the HVO, that it was

23 simply not possible to have two armies in one and the same area. And this

24 meant, as events subsequently showed, that the conflict had been

25 preplanned.

Page 985

1 Q. Now, I'm going to direct your attention to the 18th of April in

2 Mostar concerning a building called the Vranica building. Did anything

3 happen concerning that building on the 18th of April, 1993?

4 A. An attack occurred on -- against the building which housed the

5 command of the BH army. This was carried out by a group of men dressed in

6 black uniforms. They wounded the guard at the entrance, and there was

7 shooting on the Bulevar from the direction of the old Catholic church

8 towards the positions of the BH army. The attack was carried out with

9 mortars, whereas the attack on the actual BH command was carried out with

10 traditional weapons: rifles.

11 Q. Now, can you tell us, please, your observation at the time,

12 whether this was considered to be a -- the opening of a major or in itself

13 a major armed conflict, or did it seem to you something else?

14 A. It seemed to me that something very serious was going on because I

15 saw the deployment of snipers. They weren't even concealing this, and

16 they were being distributed in various buildings. They were members of

17 the Croatian armed forces. And the atmosphere in general was extremely

18 tense. And there was an attack on the Projektant building, too.

19 Q. All right. Now, while this was going on and while you've just

20 mentioned there were snipers being positioned by the Croatian forces, can

21 you tell the Chamber, was anything happening around this time in

22 connection with Muslim businesses in the city Mostar?

23 A. The Muslim businesses in the western part of Mostar, most

24 frequently close to the old Velez stadium where the coffee bars were, were

25 blown up at night-time. They were simply being destroyed.

Page 986

1 Q. Now, did this further period of unrest, if I can just describe it

2 as that for a moment, did that result in other negotiations between the

3 ABiH side and the HVO side about that time?

4 A. Yes. Negotiations were conducted to calm the situation down and

5 avoid an escalation of the conflict in the streets, and an agreement was

6 reached that the Croatian forces should withdraw to the Stari Logar area,

7 that the BH army forces should withdraw to the southern logar, that they

8 should abandon the hotel where the unit was housed. This was carried out

9 by the army. A small group remained in Vranica, however.

10 Q. All right. Now, you used a word just now and it was probably --

11 well, undoubtedly a native term, and I'm sure I won't be -- "logar" or

12 something in describing these two locations to which the troops on both

13 sides were withdrawing. Is that something like a barrack or a camp, or

14 can you help us with that?

15 A. These two old barracks built probably during the Austrio-Hungarian

16 empire, and members of the Yugoslav People's Army used to be housed in

17 them. So they are barracks, not camps for civilians.

18 Q. All right. And the agreement at that time that was negotiated, it

19 was essentially that the ABiH army would withdraw to what might be called

20 also the southern barracks and that the HVO would withdraw to the northern

21 barracks. Is that then a fair characterisation of what you said?

22 A. Yes. That is how I was informed.

23 Q. All right. Now, would you please tell the Chamber your view on

24 whether the HVO in fact followed through with that agreement.

25 A. I have to say that it had not. They were claiming that they were

Page 987

1 not in town, but they were in the immediate vicinity, with all their

2 weapons.

3 Q. To your observation as an inhabitant, someone who lived in Mostar

4 at that time, to your knowledge, did the HVO in fact, for instance, remove

5 their weapons from a place called Bijeli Brijeg?

6 A. No. Nothing was, in fact, removed. This was just a cooking

7 company, as far as I was told.

8 Q. And how about a feature called Hum? Were the Croat positions

9 removed from that feature?

10 A. No. They didn't move anywhere. They remained where they were.

11 Q. And the final question on that point: And these snipers, these

12 Croat snipers that you mentioned a few minutes ago, to your knowledge,

13 were those positions removed?

14 A. They were not, because I passed by, and I knew that they shot from

15 those positions at definite targets. There was a flower pot in my window,

16 it was hit, so I know for certain that they were shooting from those

17 positions. Why, I don't know.

18 Q. Now, one final question before moving to the main part of your

19 testimony. Can you tell the Chamber, do you recall -- there was an

20 officer of the Spanish Battalion, the Spanish contingent of UNPROFOR in

21 the Mostar area at that time. Do you recall that one of their officers

22 was killed around early May?

23 A. Yes. I think it was the beginning of May. I can't remember the

24 exact date. He was killed maybe by mistake by the HVO. And I found it

25 strange that such a grandiose funeral was sustained for him in Medjugorje.

Page 988

1 Q. And who promoted -- well, strike that. Who organised this mass

2 for the Spanish officer in Medjugorje?

3 A. I think the Catholic church from Herzegovina.

4 Q. And do you recall, sir, that that mass was conducted on the 8th of

5 May?

6 A. No. I think that was later.

7 Q. Very well. All right. Now, directing your attention to, in fact,

8 the 8th of May - and with counsel's permission, there may be some few

9 additional leading up questions that are not too critical - on the 8th of

10 May, 1993, were you on your way to one of your sisters' apartments in

11 Mostar to spend the night there?

12 A. Yes. (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 Q. All right. Now, in light of the testimony you made just a few

16 minutes ago, let me just clarify this, if I can. The bulk of the ABiH

17 forces at this time had withdrawn to the southern barracks, but I think

18 you said a small group had remained in this Vranica building; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes. The bulk of the BH army was withdrawn to the southern

21 barracks, southeastern part of Mostar, actually. A small group of some 12

22 soldiers, I think, remained at the command post of the BH army, which used

23 to be the command post, and quite a number of soldiers of the BH army were

24 at home with their weapons. I don't know exactly how many men there were,

25 but they were in their apartments on the west side of the town.

Page 989

1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Scott. And thank

3 you, Mr. Fourmy, for giving me the floor.

4 Actually, as Mr. Scott had noted, we did not object at all

5 yesterday, though the whole examination was leading. Today you also

6 started out with leading questions, but you said with our permission that

7 you would be putting leading questions, but I see that more or less all of

8 the questions are leading.

9 I will not object any further. We are both professionals. We

10 know exactly what are leading questions, and we know how such leading

11 questions are assessed. So I appeal to you to make as few leading

12 questions as possible so as to avoid any interruptions on my part. Thank

13 you.

14 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, without belabouring the matter, let me

15 respond very quickly in two ways. It is correct that certainly some of my

16 questions up to this point have been leading on background matters; where

17 the witness was born, et cetera. Many of my questions, in fact, have not

18 been leading questions at all. They have been open-ended questions in

19 which this witness has provided a narrative response. So I object to

20 that.

21 Certainly counsel can always object to a particular, and it is at

22 this juncture that I'm -- now that we're getting to the central part of

23 the testimony, I do intend to move to a different approach.

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I think in doing so, the Defence will

25 be pleased. So please continue.

Page 990

1 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

2 Q. Now, on that evening of the 8th of May, you were then going to

3 your sister's apartment, and where we left off was, did your sister

4 live -- having these additional questions about the BH command offices,

5 were those offices located in the same building where your sister lived?

6 A. Yes --

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Page 991

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Page 992

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7 [Open session]

8 Q. So on your way to that building on the 8th of May, did you have an

9 encounter with anyone that evening in which some information was conveyed

10 to you?

11 A. I met an acquaintance who told me, using these words, "Hurry

12 home. Don't you know that there's going to be an attack this evening?"

13 It was a lady. And I can't say that I laughed, but I didn't really

14 believe her. I didn't believe that would be possible.

15 Q. All right. And what did you do -- perhaps we should pause for a

16 moment.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Prosecutor. I think

18 we've resolved our little difference.

19 Please forgive us for this interruption, Mr. Scott. Please

20 continue, if you will.

21 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

22 Q. All right. So you have this encounter. I'm not going to go back

23 over it; I think it's clear. What did you do after that?

24 A. (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 993

1 Q. If we can redact the one -- the word -- sorry.

2 THE INTERPRETER: I didn't interpret.

3 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

4 Q. You went on to the apartment, and did you -- I think to move us

5 past this point, if I may be allowed, you went to bed and went to sleep

6 without anything further happening that evening; is that right? All

7 right. What happened next?

8 A. I was awakened by a terrible explosion which, I must say, caused

9 panic, and I was shocked because I didn't know where it came from and what

10 was being attacked. I jumped out into the corridor, and I saw that the

11 window in the corridor facing the Bijeli Brijeg stadium had fallen out,

12 together with its frame and the pane in the corridor. From then on, the

13 shooting didn't stop. I can't say what calibre weapons were used because

14 there was a variety, a wide variety of calibre.

15 I went out into the staircase, and I came across some men who were

16 in a terrible state of panic. I saw a soldier of the army who was running

17 up the steps, calling out women and children and civilians to go to the

18 basement, to the shelter.

19 Q. And approximately what time --

20 A. That's it.

21 Q. Approximately what time, if you can recall, were you awoken,

22 awakened, by this explosion?

23 A. I think it was 5.00 in the morning. It was just about dawn.

24 Q. And can you tell us, generally speaking, about approximately how

25 many people lived in this building or, at least, appeared to be present in

Page 994

1 the building at that time?

2 A. The building has three entrances on the eastern side in the yard,

3 so there may have been a total of 200 men. In my entrance, there may have

4 been about a hundred. I can't tell you exactly.

5 Q. Now. I want to -- to avoid any confusion, you just said 200 men.

6 Were you talking about just men or all the people living in the building?

7 A. No. These were family apartments inhabited by entire families

8 with small children and the elderly. Mostly civilians.

9 Q. And can you tell the Chamber what was the ethnic makeup of this

10 building, of the inhabitants of the building?

11 A. As the population of Mostar was mixed so were the inhabitants of

12 this building. There were Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks. Probably

13 representatives of other ethnic groups, too.

14 Q. Now, you said a few moments ago that there was a call for the

15 women and children to go into the basement of the building as a shelter;

16 is that correct?

17 A. Yes, correct.

18 Q. And did you at some point yourself around that -- sometime shortly

19 after that go to the basement?

20 A. I didn't. I went back to the apartment. I made some coffee for

21 these people, two men and a woman who were outside in the stairway, and we

22 sat down for a while to collect ourselves.

23 I didn't go to the basement. I went down a couple of times, but I

24 can't say that I stayed there for longer than two hours on the outside

25 throughout those two days, when all is added up.

Page 995

1 Q. All right. Can you just tell us briefly, on the occasions when

2 you did go down to the basement even for a short time, what did you see?

3 What was happening there?

4 A. Well, I can't say that there was panic, but those people were

5 terribly frightened and worried. Everybody was pale. Nobody had had

6 enough sleep. Some children were crying. Other people were talking,

7 trying to somehow overcome the fear. But this fire, this shooting, was

8 going on, was going on all this time.

9 Q. Now, did you come to know approximately how many ABiH soldiers

10 were in the building at that time?

11 A. I think there were 12 soldiers and some men who worked for Radio

12 Mostar, so I say there could have been 18 altogether. That includes, as I

13 said, radio people.

14 Q. And do you recall, was there a particular person who was acting,

15 if you will, as the commander of those people who -- those soldiers who,

16 at least, were in the building at that time?

17 A. I remember a man, everybody I think called him Rudi. I knew him

18 from before; that is, I used to see him around, and I believe he is a

19 Croat person from Bosnia. I'm not sure, but I think so. I would

20 recognise him if I saw him. He was at that moment a commander at the

21 command post of the BH army.

22 Q. All right, and I think you answered what was my next question.

23 What ethnicity was this Rudi?

24 A. He was a Croat.

25 Q. Can you remember how the ABiH soldiers in the building were armed

Page 996

1 at that time? What were they fighting with?

2 A. Rifles and nothing except rifles. Automatic rifles, I mean. I

3 wouldn't know exactly which ones.

4 Q. Did you observe -- during the two days of this attack, did you

5 observe that the ABiH forces had any weapons heavier or more substantial

6 than infantry rifles?

7 A. I didn't see anything else except the rifles. Well, there were

8 some pistols, perhaps two or three pistols, but otherwise, nothing heavier

9 than rifles.

10 Q. Now, turning, then, to the next day, and is it correct, sir -- I

11 don't know. We were talking about the evening of the 8th, and I suppose

12 it follows, but out of an abundance of caution, is it correct that the

13 first part of attack as you've been describing it for the last few

14 minutes, that occurred on the 9th of May?

15 A. That's right. The attack, in point of fact, started at 5.00 on

16 the 9th of May, 1993.

17 Q. All right. I'm sorry if that was already clear, but just to be

18 sure.

19 The next day, then, turning to the 10th of May, what happened on

20 that day?

21 A. The 10th of May, what happened was that -- now, I don't know if it

22 was a mortar shell or perhaps a hand-grenade, but the wall of the cellar

23 of the basement was opened, and then the members of the BH army retreated

24 up the stairs. They were afraid that the forces of the HVO might get in.

25 The attack became more intensive. Some flats were set on fire

Page 997












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and the English transcripts.













Page 998

1 because nitroglycerin bullets were used, and they were fired from the yard

2 of the economic school on the west side of the building.

3 And then there were some negotiations between the attackers and

4 the defence, and there members of the HVO objected that the BH army was

5 keeping those civilians as hostages. I was present in the cellar at that

6 time when the present civilians were asked to say -- or rather, Rudi had

7 told them that they could leave the basement whenever they liked. And

8 they didn't want to, they wanted to stay together with their men. They

9 wanted to stay together.

10 In the afternoon hours -- or perhaps I'm becoming too talkative,

11 sorry. Should I continue or --

12 Q. Not too talkative, but before you continue on, let me go back to

13 one other question. Did you observe -- apart from the fighting that was

14 happening in and around that building itself, did you observe anything

15 else happening in Mostar around that day, on 10th of May?

16 A. I think there was an all-out attack by the HVO on the positions of

17 the BH army. One could hear them. One could hear -- one could understand

18 by the sound of all the fire from different parts of the town, and also we

19 had a radio so we could also listen to that radio. That radio was on

20 the -- in the east part of the town.

21 Q. Can you tell the Chamber whether you saw any civilians being moved

22 around the town on the 10th of May?

23 A. Well, I saw a group of civilians whom the HVO -- whom HVO members

24 were taking towards the stadium at Bijeli Brijeg, that is, to the Velez

25 stadium. I'd say it was a group of some 120 people.

Page 999

1 Q. All right. Witness E, we had gotten to the point where there was

2 some concern about whether the civilians wanted to leave the building, and

3 at that point the civilians were saying that they still wanted to stay in

4 the building, correct, at that moment?

5 A. Correct. And this radio journalist, she asked people and they

6 said that. And they even protested very, very loudly against being asked

7 to leave the building.

8 Q. All right. And what happened after that?

9 A. Well, I think this was the crucial moment. When the defence

10 effort weakened was when this wall of the basement was destroyed, and then

11 members of the BH army and the attackers began negotiations. I believe

12 Juka Prazina also took part in those negotiations, about how the civilians

13 should withdraw to the third floor because otherwise, they would destroy

14 flats. And at some point I heard that, that they would put a cistern

15 [Realtime transcript read in error "system"] with 20 tonnes of explosives,

16 that they would put it in front -- below the building. Now, whether it

17 was just a threat or an intention, I cannot say that, but I could conclude

18 that this was one of the options in the negotiations. And when those

19 civilians, when women and there were children -- with small children were

20 there, then they asked the BH army to surrender. That is what they did.

21 Q. Witness E, with my apology, and I'm only judging this by the speed

22 of interpretation, but if you could speak just a bit more slowly, it might

23 assist, please.

24 A. I'm very sorry. My apologies.

25 Q. Now, you said a moment ago, I think, that there was then some

Page 1000

1 indication from the Croat side that they would bring some sort of a

2 cistern, a tank, to the building. Can you just explain that further?

3 MR. SCOTT: It's been translated -- Mr. Fourmy, in line 13 it was

4 "system, put a system with 20 tonnes of explosives," but I'm asking the

5 witness if he can help us clarify that a bit.

6 Q. What were they -- did you hear the HVO was going to bring to the

7 building and do?

8 A. A cistern, a tanker.

9 Q. And tanker of what?

10 A. Well, I'm not sure. I think it must have been a tanker for some

11 liquid. I'd seen such a tanker parked on the avenue, and I could assume

12 that it was the tanker for liquid fuel or something. But what I can say

13 is that the defenders of the building were threatened that the building

14 would be blown up, until they accepted the terms, with 20 tonnes of

15 explosives.

16 Q. All right. And is that then when negotiations started, if you

17 will, about the surrender of the people in the building?

18 A. Yes. Then negotiations then started about the surrender, and that

19 is about how the building would be evacuated.

20 Q. You said a moment ago that one of the -- the person who seemed to

21 be in charge or conducting the negotiations for the HVO side was someone

22 named Juka Prazina; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And I believe you said that this was a man that you knew of

25 before. I'm not suggesting you were necessarily friends, but you knew of

Page 1001

1 him or had known him before; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, I knew Juka. I knew Juka. As a matter of fact, I saw him

3 twice before the Vranica building was attacked. I met him. That is, I

4 saw him once when he caused an incident in front of the BH army command,

5 when he threw a hand-grenade into a container in the yard because of some

6 misunderstanding with members of the security of the BH army command. And

7 after that, a group of members of the BH army had organised a celebration

8 and Juka Prazina took part in that. And I was present there with my

9 orchestra. We were playing there at that celebration, at that party.

10 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I'm looking at the clock, but if I can ask

11 one or two more questions, I think it will be a convenient place to stop.

12 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.


14 Q. So when you, so when you saw this man -- strike that.

15 So when you became involved or were observing the negotiations

16 taking place involving someone we refer to as Juka, again, this is

17 somebody you already knew; correct?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. And my final question before the break is: Can you just tell the

20 Chamber what role did you see Juka playing through these events? What was

21 his role or position appear to you to be as these events unfolded?

22 A. He commanded that group which attacked the command post of the

23 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I think that's a good place to break, if

25 you agree.

Page 1002

1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes. It is indeed half past twelve.

2 Witness, we shall make a break of one hour and a half, and we shall be

3 back here at 2.00. Thank you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We shall be back here at 2.00. The

6 session is adjourned.

7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.



















Page 1003

1 --- On resuming at 2.02 p.m.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] This session is resumed. Please be

3 seated.

4 Usher, will you please bring the witness in.

5 Mr. Prosecutor, while we're waiting for the witness, may I take

6 the liberty to share with you a certain concern regarding the schedule.

7 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Should we be able to observe the

9 schedule envisaged for this week? And could you at least give us some

10 indication as to how much more time will you need for your direct

11 examination of this witness, because you also have the cross-examination.

12 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] The Defence will be cross-examining

14 the witness.

15 Witness, I hope you had some rest at least. The Prosecutor will

16 continue his examination, then it will be the turn of the Defence. I

17 should like to ask the usher to switch on the second microphone, and can

18 you please try to articulate before when you speak because these

19 microphones help the interpreters to tell us what you are saying.

20 Unfortunately, I do not speak your language. I have to go through

21 interpreters, and it's very important that all you say is well

22 understood. Thank you very much.

23 Yes, Prosecutor.

24 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. And I will address, perhaps, a

25 bit later the concerns -- questions that you just addressed to me.

Page 1004

1 Q. Witness E, we left off before the lunch break with the

2 negotiations between the -- those in the building, let me put it that way,

3 and Juka about the surrender of the people in the building.

4 Now, before we move past that, and I apologise, I didn't have a

5 chance to look back in the transcript, so if I'm repeating something, my

6 apology, but was there someone on the side of the building, the people in

7 the building, that emerged as the negotiator around this time with

8 Mr. Juka?

9 A. Yes. It was the former goalkeeper of the Yugoslav football

10 representation, Enver Maric, who assumed the role of a negotiator even

11 though all -- not all that well.

12 Q. And as a result of these negotiations, an agreement was reached by

13 which the occupants of the building would surrender; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, it is correct. The whole surrender procedure was

15 established, that is, a white flag in front of the column and the column

16 of inhabitants was to go down the stairs from the third floor, that is, to

17 go through a corridor in the Stjepan Radic street next to the building

18 which had been the object of the attack, into the yard of the economic

19 school, and to enter the yard of the economic school from the street

20 called Avenija, the avenue.

21 Q. All right. Now, once you reached the courtyard of the economic

22 school, were you met by anyone at that location, a leader from the HVO

23 side? And I'm talking about the economics courtyard, not -- the school

24 courtyard, not another location.

25 A. Well, when we passed by the economic school, I saw uniformed

Page 1005

1 members of the HVO, and when we entered this yard from the other side,

2 from the street called Avenija, I met Juka -- I came across Juka Prazina,

3 who was coordinating the attack, and another HVO soldier. If you insist,

4 I can give you his name.

5 Q. No, that's fine. Now, did anything more happen to the group at

6 that time, and that is, was this group of people who had exited the

7 building, were you divided up into any different groups, or what happened

8 next?

9 A. Inside the building, they kept members of the staff of Radio

10 Mostar. Those were some women and -- young women.

11 Outside the building, they said the Croats were free to go home.

12 We were told, that is, when they thought that somebody was militarily

13 able, one of the men, those were told to make up a column on the

14 right-hand side. Then Juka approached me and asked me if I lived in that

15 building. I said I didn't. And then he pointed with his finger to

16 join -- for me to join the column that was marked as the army of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Q. All right. So as a result of this process, essentially Juka told

19 you -- put you into the group of the people who were believed to be or

20 alleged to be ABiH soldiers; is that correct?

21 A. It is, yes. I had to join that group.

22 Q. And just for the record, sir, were you on that day, in fact, an

23 ABiH soldier?

24 A. No, no, no. I wasn't, no.

25 Q. All right. Now, can you tell the Chamber, please, about the time

Page 1006

1 that this was happening, did you notice that there was -- a Croatian TV

2 crew from Zagreb had appeared?

3 A. That's right. It was a TV team of the Croatian radio-television.

4 I believe they were making some recordings for a programme called With

5 Picture to Picture or Picture to Picture, because I had seen that

6 programme.

7 Q. And did anything happen after that? Was anything done in front of

8 the camera at that moment that came to your attention?

9 A. A member of the BH army stepped -- there was a member of the BH

10 army who was carrying the portrait of a current commander of the BH army,

11 and he was asked to allow it to be taken, a photograph with that

12 portrait.

13 Q. All right. Now, Witness E, before we get to that, let me take you

14 back perhaps a few minutes before that. Do you remember any foods,

15 biscuits or cookies being given out around this time?

16 A. Well, a box had been brought with some biscuits and chocolate and

17 a few bottles of some refreshing drinks, and these were distributed among

18 some women and children.

19 Q. Can you tell the Chamber whether that was done in front of the

20 Croatian TV camera?

21 A. Well, in my view, it was done for purely propaganda reasons.

22 Q. Did any of that kind of conduct, the giving out of food or

23 chocolate to the women or children, did that continue once the camera was

24 removed, once the camera team was no longer filming?

25 A. As soon as the TV crew stopped recording, the situation changed,

Page 1007

1 that is, the reality set in.

2 Q. All right. Now, around this time -- you were telling me about

3 this photograph of someone who was -- a Mr. Rahimic was asked to hold or

4 something and that's when I interrupted you once before. Would you tell

5 us about that.

6 A. Yes, with pleasure. The commander of a group taking the command

7 of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Juka Prazina, wanted to enter the

8 command, the basement, but he wasn't sure if it had been mined or not.

9 And he threatened us that if anything happened to his soldiers who was

10 about to go into the basement, that we'd all be shot dead, executed on the

11 spot.

12 After a while, this soldier, a member of the HVO, came back

13 carrying in his hands the portrait of the current -- of the then-commander

14 of Bosnia and Herzegovina army, and he gave this portrait to Juka, to

15 Jusuf Prazina, and he gave it to Mr. Rahimic, to Mirsad Rahimic, and he

16 had to stand in front of the cameras of the Croatian television so that he

17 could be recorded as a man carrying the portrait of the commander who had

18 just been captured there.

19 Q. And for the record, who was the then-overall head of the ABiH

20 forces, the man whose picture was taken? The man whose picture was not

21 taken by the film crew - excuse me - but the man whose picture was taken

22 out of office.

23 A. It was Sefer Halilovic.

24 Q. And after this Mr. Rahimic had been filmed by the Croatian film

25 crew, holding this picture, did anything happen to Mr. Rahimic after the

Page 1008

1 TV crew left?

2 A. Well, no. Rahimic was made to rejoin the column.

3 Q. All right. And around this time, were you threatened to be

4 killed, and if so, can you tell us what happened?

5 A. So I was standing with that column, and right opposite me, with a

6 cocked rifle, there was a soldier of the HVO who ran up to me, saying that

7 his friend Pero had got killed and that he'd kill me right there and

8 then. And then Jusuf reacted, Juka reacted. He hit him and said, "You

9 leave the armija alone."

10 Q. All right. Now, were the group of you then taken someplace else,

11 from the courtyard of the economic school to another location?

12 A. Well, about 30 of us, I'd say, were taken towards the tobacco

13 institute, a building south of the economic school building, about 500

14 metres down.

15 Q. And did you have any understanding at that time as to what was,

16 what was located at the tobacco institute or why you were being taken to

17 that particular location?

18 A. At that time, the tobacco institute housed some -- well, I can't

19 really say exactly because I wouldn't know the exact rank, the exact

20 level, but they -- it housed some kind of command of the Croat Defence

21 Council.

22 Q. The HVO?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. And what happened once the group of you reached the tobacco

25 institute?

Page 1009

1 A. We were turned over, that is, Juka turned us over to Mr. Mladen

2 Naletilic, Tuta.

3 Q. All right. Now, let's take that in steps. What did you observe?

4 Where were you taken there? Was it into another type of courtyard or what

5 location in connection with the tobacco institute were you actually taken

6 to?

7 A. We were in the immediate neighbourhood of that building which

8 housed some HVO command and some 30 metres to the north in the street

9 leading up to that structure.

10 Q. All right. Now, you said Juka then turned the group over to Tuta.

11 Just tell us what you saw and how that was carried out. What actually

12 happened?

13 A. Juka was in a very good mood after the successful operation, the

14 attack on the command, and as he was taking us in, he sang and fired into

15 the air. A few soldiers at the rear of the column, members of the Croat

16 Defence Council, the HVO, were swearing and pushing us a little so that

17 those who were in the rear, at the very back, stumbled and fell.

18 As we reached the tobacco institute, Mr. Naletilic threatened -- I

19 believe that young man's name was Zekic. He threatened that he would be

20 killed and that the rest would be exchanged, either in Sikori Brijeg,

21 Ljubuski, or Lisica, I wouldn't know.

22 Q. What did Juka himself do upon arriving at this location where you

23 saw Tuta?

24 A. Oh, what I can say that he immediately assumed a passive or an

25 auxiliary role. Quite simply, he also examined a man here and there,

Page 1010












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13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1011

1 inspecting paper, personal papers and so on.

2 Q. Well, what did you observe about Juka's attitude and behaviour

3 toward Tuta when the two of them were together?

4 A. He was subordinated to him, absolutely.

5 Q. All right. Now, let's go back to this incident with this

6 individual Zekic. Now, what did you see Tuta do concerning Mr. Zekic?

7 A. Well, he came from the back and showed that he had been killed by

8 a burst of fire in the shape of a cross, but then Mr. Naletilic's escorts

9 ran up and beat him up.

10 Q. And did you see any other similar circumstances occur around that

11 time? Was this, was this -- I'm sorry. Did this appear to you to be a

12 pattern of conduct?

13 A. Well, my impression was that if somebody was marked by

14 Mr. Naletilic in one way or the other, perhaps addressed him -- did not

15 address him politely or reacted or -- address him impolitely or perhaps

16 strike him, then others from those ranks would join in.

17 Q. Join in what?

18 A. Well, how shall I say? In a physical assault on that individual.

19 Q. All right. Sorry. In looking -- I'm just looking at the

20 transcript of your answer, Witness E. The problem -- which -- who --

21 which would join in? Who would join who? It's not clear, I'm sorry, but

22 who would join who in mistreating the individual?

23 A. Well, if Mr. Naletilic has marked somebody with a blow or

24 something, there would be the attack on a person belonging to the army of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So for instance, this Naletilic's threat to Mr. Zekic

Page 1012

1 was a sign for his escorts to beat up that man, and that is what they did,

2 using their fists and their rifle butts.

3 Q. All right. Now, did you say a similar situation -- a similar

4 thing occur with a man named Zilic?

5 A. Zilic was taken out of the line as a man who had assumed the

6 command in the Vranica building. Mr. Naletilic hit him, first at his

7 genitals with his hand, and then with the fist he dealt him a blow in his

8 face. And that men, again men from Tuta's escort, ill-treated.

9 Q. Now, at some point along the way, did -- I'm trying to speed up

10 just a bit. Did Juka communicate to Tuta, to your knowledge, did you

11 learn, that you should be released?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what happened?

14 A. I was in a very -- I was in a predicament. I thought I was in a

15 very bad predicament, because I had an identity document, that is, a paper

16 which showed that I was a member of the Preporod cultural society. So I

17 showed it to Juka and he said to hide it. And I put that membership card

18 in the pocket of my shirt, and then Juka went to Tuta and said that there

19 were some people who ought to be released.

20 Q. And what happened after that?

21 A. And then Mr. Naletilic came up to me and indicated with his head

22 that I should tell him what I have to say, and then I said that he -- that

23 I was sure he remembered me, because I used to play in a band with

24 Mr. Kreso Sunjic. And then Mr. Naletilic took me by the hand to a parked

25 car, asked for a piece -- asked me to give him a piece of paper and a pen,

Page 1013

1 and I just happened to have these things that he asked for. So I passed

2 them on to him, and he wrote on that -- that I should be allowed to move

3 freely, that I would have free passage.

4 MR. SCOTT: With the usher's assistance and also the Registry's

5 assistance, if the witness could be provided what has been marked as

6 Exhibit P54 from the binder that's been provided. And counsel will have

7 it now. And Mr. Fourmy, it should be in your binder. P54. In fact, it

8 should be shown to the witness and put on the ELMO, please.

9 If I could just have a moment. Let me just check one thing,

10 Mr. Fourmy, before --

11 THE REGISTRAR: Is this a confidential document?

12 MR. SCOTT: This is one of the things I'm checking right now, so

13 if we could hold just for a moment.

14 Yes. I'm afraid it will have to be sealed because it will

15 identify the witness.

16 Q. So what I'm going to do, Witness E -- thank you very much both to

17 Mr. Stringer and to the Registry for alerting me.

18 What I'm going to do, Witness E, is I'm going to have that

19 document shown to you. We're not going to put it on the ELMO, but I just

20 want you to look at it. Don't say anything about the name that's on the

21 face of the document, but just look at it for a moment. You have it there

22 now?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. All right. Is that the document that Tuta gave you at the time

25 that you were just telling us about a few minutes ago?

Page 1014

1 A. Yes. That is, this is a copy of this document.

2 Q. Now, can you tell me, please, did you see Tuta write that --

3 actually write that document in front of you and did you see him sign his

4 signature in your presence?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Usher, could I have your assistance, please? If

7 you could retrieve that document. My copy doesn't have -- is missing one

8 part. My apologies.

9 My apologies. What I'll represent to the Court, in the interests

10 of time, is that another part of that document shows on the back of it,

11 consistent with the witness's testimony, that this document was written,

12 this release was written on the back of a piece of paper that had other

13 text on the other side. And my apologies, it seems not to have found its

14 way into the binder.

15 Q. Now, again, sir, without mentioning any of the names on there, and

16 I apologise for the bit of commotion, that is the release paper -- release

17 that says -- do I read it correctly? That says: "Release the gentleman,

18 free passage," signed, "Tuta"?

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. Now, Witness E, if you're able to do this without feeling

21 uncomfortable, I would like for you, please, to look around the courtroom

22 today and tell me, is the man that you say that day, that you described in

23 your testimony in the last few minutes, is that man and the man who gave

24 you this release, is that man in the courtroom?

25 A. He is.

Page 1015

1 Q. And for the record, can you briefly describe where this person --

2 just, for instance, how they're dressed today, physical appearance?

3 A. Now you mean?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. He has a grey suit, a blue shirt, a tie which is grey and blue.

6 His hair is grey. Wearing glasses, a beard, and laughing right now.

7 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, if the record can please show the witness

8 identified the accused, Mr. Naletilic.

9 Q. And as a result of all this, Witness E, were you, in fact,

10 released at that time?

11 A. Yes. I was allowed to go.

12 Q. And is it correct, sir, that you then remained in the Mostar area

13 until approximately mid-June of 1993 and then you left the country of

14 Bosnia?

15 A. That is right.

16 Q. During the time that you were at the tobacco institute, did you

17 hear any of the HVO soldiers address Tuta?

18 A. Yes. They addressed him with "Mr. General."

19 Q. Thank you, Witness E.

20 MR. SCOTT: No further questions.

21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes, the Defence.

22 Mr. Krsnik? Yes, Mr. Krsnik, your cross-examination.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

24 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Let me introduce myself. My name is

25 Kresimir Krsnik. I am Defence counsel for Mr. Naletilic. I will put to

Page 1016

1 you certain questions, and I kindly ask you to cooperate by answering in

2 keeping with the oath you gave before this Court.

3 Will you please tell me --

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Fourmy. Are we still

5 in private session?

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] No. We are in public session. If

7 you want to put precise questions, we can go back into private session, if

8 you like.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Then, Mr. Fourmy, I will alert you

10 when I come to questions which require a private session to facilitate our

11 work.

12 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 A. I will be responsive to your questions.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Thank you. Since I have to protect your identity and I have to

16 concentrate on the questions, I think these questions will not reveal your

17 identity. What is your occupation or, rather, what was your occupation in

18 1991, 1992, 1993? Were you employed at all in those years?

19 A. In 1992 and 1993 I didn't work anywhere. In 1991, I worked in a

20 factory which produces military equipment, in fact, aircraft and

21 helicopters.

22 Q. And what is your profession?

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I believe this still

24 cannot reveal the witness's identity, but if you believe this, we are

25 entering into the category of questions which might perhaps jeopardise

Page 1017

1 identity, maybe we can go into private session right now, and then I can

2 continue with my question, if the Prosecutor agrees.

3 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Krsnik.

4 I think so, Mr. Fourmy. There comes a time when a certain

5 combination of facts tends to become identifying. Thank you.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you for proposing this.

7 Shall we go into private session, Madam Registrar.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

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19 (redacted)

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Page 1018












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8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

21 Q. I asked you a moment ago whether this knowledge you gained was

22 hearsay, meetings with your friends, chitchat from hallways, or did you

23 gain some firsthand knowledge? I'm just quoting the answers you gave to

24 my colleague. Can I conclude that it's correct what you're saying?

25 A. Can you ask your question, please?

Page 1025












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13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1026

1 Q. The better part of your knowledge, is it hearsay, chitchat from

2 corridors, socialising in restaurants with friends, acquaintances?

3 A. I would prefer a specific question. Could you ask me about a

4 specific event, whether I attended or not, and I will answer you.

5 Q. I asked you a very specific question. I'm just following your

6 answers you gave to my learned friend, and you answered his questions by

7 saying, "I was informed," "I knew," et cetera. In order to avoid asking

8 you, "How do you know?" I asked you this question. I asked you a very

9 broad question, but it is still specific.

10 A. Can you please target a specific event and ask me how I heard

11 about it and how I was informed? I will gladly answer any specific

12 question you put to me about a specific event. Whether I heard from --

13 about it from radio, television, from hearsay, or whether I got firsthand

14 knowledge of it.

15 Q. Here is a very specific question: What was the Mostar assembly,

16 and did you attend it personally?

17 A. I did not attend the Mostar assembly, and I don't know what it

18 means.

19 Q. It's your expression, one that you used, if I'm not mistaken,

20 because the Mostar assembly was the -- at the Mostar assembly, HVO was

21 entrusted with the defence of the city of Mostar.

22 A. I saw a document in which the parliamentary assembly of the city

23 of Mostar, including representatives of legitimate and legal political

24 parties, signed that they leave the defence of Mostar to the Croatian

25 Defence Council.

Page 1027

1 Q. You did not attend that assembly?

2 A. No, but I saw the document.

3 Q. Who participated? Who attended this assembly?

4 Okay, let's do it through shorter questions. This assembly, was

5 it attended by representatives of parties, I mean, the SDA and the HDZ?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In this -- in these documents, did you see that a signatory of

8 that document was Alija Izetbegovic?

9 A. No. He was not a member of the parliament of the city of Mostar.

10 Q. And was he the head of the Party of Democratic Action or the SDA?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was he superior to the city of Mostar?

13 A. I don't know who you mean.

14 Q. I mean the SDA of Mostar.

15 A. I didn't understand who was superior to whom.

16 Q. Alija Izetbegovic is the chief of that party.

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Who as representative of the SDA signed this agreement?

19 A. Dr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic.

20 Q. At that time, was it agreed -- was the parity of national

21 composition agreed? Or let me clarify this. Was equal representation

22 agreed of the Croatian and Muslim ethnicities in the Croatian army?

23 A. To be honest, I don't remember. I don't think equal

24 representation was one of the issues, but there was a clause which said

25 that Muslims were also free to establish their own units which would be

Page 1028

1 subordinated to the Croatian Defence Council.

2 Q. And those Muslim units, were they known as MOS?

3 A. No. It was Mostar Territorial Defence.

4 Q. And when was the first Mostar Brigade formed? If you know, of

5 course.

6 A. I can't remember the date, really, but I think it was later May or

7 early June 1992.

8 Q. The 1st Mostar Brigade, did it eventually grow into the 4th Corps?

9 A. I believe so.

10 Q. And about the events that we're talking about, did at that time

11 the 4th Corps exist?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know who was Jasmin Jaganjac's deputy?

14 A. I can't remember.

15 Q. When the Territorial Defence was renamed as the army of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17 A. I think it was that same May or late May and early June. I

18 wouldn't really know, but I think that the orders had come from the

19 president of Bosnia-Herzegovina -- presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Alija

20 Izetbegovic.

21 Q. And that agreement -- you see, I am not asking you any leading

22 questions. Did the HVO become the regular force of Bosnia-Herzegovina by

23 virtue of that agreement, known as the government forces, in vernacular?

24 A. Yes, you could say so.

25 Q. So could we agree that the HVO was a regular army equal with the

Page 1029

1 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, playing an equal role in the defence of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And Bosniaks, people of Bosniak ethnicity -- of course I am more

5 familiar with the situation on the ground than my learned friend, so I say

6 Bosniak ethnicity, not Muslim ethnicity. So people of Bosniak ethnicity

7 who were in the HVO, did they have to take an oath?

8 A. I really don't know that. I think they did, but I, I was never

9 present.

10 Q. I'm asking you because you said that you had an HVO membership

11 card, so I thought that perhaps -- you see how I'm taking --

12 A. No, I never took any oath, either in the army or the HVO.

13 Q. Where did you get this HVO card from?

14 A. By the decision of the leadership of the HVO, the Muslim cultural

15 society Preporod became an integral part -- at least that is how I

16 understood, it became an integral part of the Croat Defence Council, that

17 is, it is the department responsible for cultural activities.

18 Q. Could you -- one call it art forces?

19 A. Yes, that's right. That's what its name was.

20 Q. Were there any other Bosniaks in the HVO?

21 A. Yes, of course there were.

22 Q. Did you stage any theatre performances?

23 A. I didn't.

24 Q. No. I mean the art forces.

25 A. Yes, the art forces did.

Page 1030

1 Q. Until when, if you remember?

2 A. I really don't, but I think sometime in the war. Perhaps even

3 until the autumn of 1993 -- no, I'm not really sure. I don't know.

4 Q. As I understand, you don't know, because you left, after all.

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. Tell me, were there any arguments, any friction within the SDA

7 because of this togetherness with the HVO and whether, because of this

8 friction -- no. I'm asking you, perhaps you will know better, are you a

9 member of the SDA? Were you?

10 A. No, I wasn't.

11 Q. So, in view of -- this togetherness brought about certain

12 arguments and then led to a split, to a schism in the Mostar SDA. Do you

13 know anything about that?

14 A. No, I don't.

15 Q. Did it have to do with the SDA order that Bosniaks should leave

16 their workplaces, well, say on the west side or where Croats were the

17 majority, and they should therefore align with the majority Muslim parts?

18 A. I never heard of any such order, nor did anyone ever tell me about

19 such an order.

20 Q. Then why did this split take place? Was there a group which

21 wanted the togetherness with the HVO and a group, I mean within the SDA,

22 which was against such togetherness?

23 A. Well, I see these things in a somewhat different light, I mean,

24 this split. I think it was due to the struggle for a better position

25 between individual members; that is, I think that these conflicts were of

Page 1031

1 a highly personal nature.

2 Q. You mean for personal gain?

3 A. That's what I think.

4 Q. Who will be a minister?

5 A. That's exactly it.

6 Q. And so it was the personal gain which then led to the split?

7 A. In the SDA, in the party SDA.

8 Q. In the Mostar SDA?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So am I concluding rightly that then part of the Bosniaks who were

11 in the SDA stayed and joined the Croats? Do you know how many Bosniak

12 Ministers there were in the Mostar region or, rather, West Herzegovina,

13 throughout? Do you know?

14 A. No, I don't know exactly.

15 Q. Oh, you don't know.

16 A. I know there was some, but the number, I really don't.

17 Q. Fine, fine, fine. Never mind.

18 A. I also some -- personally know some people.

19 Q. Right. All right. Never mind. Did you ever read the Islamic

20 declaration?

21 A. I heard about it. I never read it.

22 Q. Now, in view of the split in the SDA, was -- were there some

23 advocates -- were their some partisans of a national army? I'm referring

24 to the one between the -- the split between the HVO and the BH army. Do

25 you know anything about that?

Page 1032

1 A. As far as I was aware of the situation, it was -- it never came

2 from the Bosniak side.

3 Q. But I'm asking you about the Bosniak side.

4 A. I do not think that the Bosniak side ever initiated -- ever

5 suggested such an idea to set up a mono -- mono-ethnic multi-ethnic armies

6 or anything like that.

7 Q. Yes. Well, I've got my answer. Right. Since you are so

8 conversant, did you know about the Vance-Owen Plan?

9 A. There were very many plans. You must know that.

10 Q. Do you know the Vance's Plan?

11 A. No, I don't. I don't know various details, and I guess it's quite

12 a hefty document. I didn't have access to it. I was in the centre of all

13 these events in Mostar and all that, so ...

14 Q. Right. Let me cut this short, if possible. Under the Vance-Owen

15 Plan, do you know how the Mostar problem was to be solved?

16 A. No. I really don't.

17 Q. You don't. Did you hear about a play -- about a locality called

18 Musala?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What is it?

21 A. It is a square in the east part of the town and it's called

22 Musala, and it means where people who are Islamic believers, where they

23 have their prayers. It was at the time of the Turkish rule and the name

24 simply persisted.

25 Q. But was there a prison there, a camp for prisoners?

Page 1033

1 A. Are you referring to --

2 Q. Yes. I'm referring to 1993, about events immediately preceding

3 the events that we were discussing today.

4 A. I never heard about any such prison there.

5 Q. You've never heard about that?

6 A. No, never.

7 Q. Did you ever see a captured Croat prior to these events being

8 taken or have you -- or did you hear about a Croat being arrested by the

9 army of BH?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you ever hear that a sniper or some other weapon killed a

12 member of the HVO by a projectile fired by Bosniaks prior to these

13 events?

14 A. If you're referring to Mostar --

15 Q. 1993. I'm referring to 1993, Mostar area.

16 A. Let me tell you, I left Mostar in June 1993.

17 Q. But I'm asking --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Or July. The interpreter is not sure.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I'm asking you before that.

21 A. If you want to know what I heard, I can tell you. In Crnica, a

22 Croat was killed by a Croat sniper in front of the building of the

23 emergency aid in Mostar. A Croat was killed by a Croat, by a driver,

24 because he thought that that man wasn't a Croat because he was wearing

25 civilian clothes.

Page 1034

1 Q. You heard that?

2 A. Well, you're asking me what I heard, so I'm telling you about

3 that.

4 Q. And you didn't hear that a member of the BH army ever killed

5 anyone?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You never heard that, did you? Very well. But was there any

8 fire? As we Croats, or rather, as we say, was there ever --

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes. I apologise, Mr. Fourmy. I get

10 carried away. I get carried away. I've asked my colleague to pull me by

11 the robe, but she seems to be also carried away, so she didn't warn me.

12 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes. I think we should put perhaps a

13 tassel. A long tassel on your left sleeve, Mr. Krsnik. But please don't

14 forget that all that is being said will be meant for the Judges' eyes. We

15 talk here about very many things. You understand with witness what you

16 are talking about up to certain point, but for the Judges who are not

17 familiar with the history, I understand there will, of course, some --

18 there will be opening statement by the Prosecution and perhaps from your

19 side. Of course you don't have to do that at that particular time, but,

20 say, that it is very difficult. You're talking about the 4th Corps. Very

21 good. And a number of other questions. For instance, in the beginning,

22 one understands it is the 4th Corps of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, of

23 the BH army, as we usually call it, but perhaps that is not self-evident

24 for everybody. So that formally -- then when you say, for instance, the

25 1st Mostar Brigade. These are just examples.

Page 1035

1 Likewise, if you ask a witness if he heard about a Croat killed by

2 a Muslim, obviously the witness -- what the witness is thinking about is a

3 Croat killed by a sniper in Mostar. Well, at least, that is how I would

4 have understood that question had it been addressed to me, but fortunately

5 it wasn't; it was addressed to the witness.

6 However, at the same time, somebody who will have to read this

7 thing, I think, will be rather at sea because of this, because knowing

8 what the conflict is kind, and for instance, we have a witness who simply

9 did not hear that a Croat was killed by a Muslim in that case. Of course

10 it sounds odd.

11 So it would help the reading if you could be more precise, either

12 to define a period of time, a date, or a place. If you could specify

13 these things because -- do you understand what I'm saying? Because

14 frankly speaking, in six months' time, a Judge who reads 10.000 pages of

15 transcript, I know we shall always have people who are very attentive, who

16 pay attention, but it will be hard. So will you please bear this in

17 mind.

18 Yes. Please do go on.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm truly grateful to you,

20 Mr. Fourmy. You see, that is how I should ask my question; event and date

21 and place, but do you know how long would that cross-examination take? I

22 am trying to focus it all down, to narrow it down to things that were

23 touched upon in the direct examination.

24 I know that there will be a transcript of 10.000 pages, and I'm

25 positive that you will inform the Judges very well, because you were

Page 1036

1 present during these depositions, but in a whole series of statements --

2 and this is the first deposition about Mostar. There will be a whole

3 range of depositions because my learned -- and we will also be bringing

4 some others. So there is a logical sequence, of course. It is difficult

5 to draw any conclusions now.

6 Why I'm asking this matter? Perhaps I will follow up on some

7 questions that were asked today some six months later, but one doesn't

8 know. But once again, thank you very much.

9 Q. And the dates when you heard these things, do you know those dates

10 or don't you? To make it very short.

11 A. I don't know. What events are you referring to?

12 Q. Well, what we said, snipers and gunfire. The year. You don't

13 know? Was it before 1993? Before May 1993 or after May 1993 when you

14 heard that?

15 A. Well, that -- there was one event prior to May, prior to 9th of

16 May 1993, and the second one happened after the 10th of May.

17 Q. Why do you think that the 9th of May is the turning point is --

18 when you mentioned it so spontaneously?

19 A. Well, you know, if a quiet man is killed --

20 Q. Right, right, right. I get your meaning, yes. So tell us whether

21 the decision about that shall be made responsible for the defence of

22 Mostar, is it still in force? Has it ever been withdrawn?

23 A. I really don't know that.

24 Q. Oh, you don't know. Did you see or hear snipers from the east

25 side? I mean prior to the 9th of May, on the 9th of May, after the 9th of

Page 1037

1 May? I mean on the Bosniak side, East Mostar. That's where you lived, if

2 I understood well. Or at least, that's where you went later on?

3 A. Well, no. As a matter of fact, I was on the west side.

4 Q. Even after the event that you told us?

5 A. After those events.

6 Q. And from West Mostar you went where you are today?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. Thank you very much. I missed that point. And how long after the

9 events -- I have to be mindful of protection measures. How long did you

10 stay in Mostar after that; a month, two, or three?

11 A. I left on the 16th of June or July, 1993.

12 Q. Nobody ever harmed you?

13 A. Well, I had some two contacts, but to be quite honest, I relied on

14 this piece of paper that was given to me by Mr. Naletilic.

15 Q. Well, are you grateful to him for that?

16 A. Well, I am.

17 Q. Where is the boundary between the East and West Mostar on the

18 Neretva bank? Or both sides on the east side?

19 A. Yes. You're quite right. This boundary that was drawn, one side

20 was under the responsibility of the HVO members and the other side was the

21 responsibility of the BH army. After the agreement reached in the

22 presence of UNPROFOR in the Projektant building between Generals Arif

23 Pasalic, and I think that on the Croat side it was General Mico Lasic, but

24 I am not sure if it was he or wasn't, but I'm quite positive that it was

25 Arif Pasalic, that he was either one of the delegates or that he did it

Page 1038

1 directly.

2 Q. In the Projektant building, that is, the building that housed the

3 HVO command?

4 A. It was the home for ART forces and perhaps part of the SIS. I'm

5 not quite sure. I do apologise. But I know that ART forces were housed

6 there at some kind of command, but I don't know which.

7 Q. How far is Vranica from Projektant, as the crow flies?

8 A. Well, let me say about 80 metres perhaps.

9 Q. Did the BH army have its checkpoints in front of Vranica, entrance

10 into East Mostar and around Mostar, which they may manned and kept?

11 A. In front of Vranica there was a guard.

12 Q. And what about checkpoints?

13 A. Well, quite honestly, I really don't know. I mean, I can explain

14 it if you want me to. I mean why, I don't know.

15 Q. No, no, no, you don't have to explain to me. If you don't know

16 something, why would you have to explain it to me?

17 For the transcript and so that we can understand one another

18 later, is it correct to say that Vranica is in the centre of Mostar or

19 that it is the centre of Mostar?

20 A. Well, it is away from the geographic center of Mostar, some dozens

21 of metres.

22 Q. And how far is it from the agreed boundary between the area of

23 responsibilities between the HVO and the BH army? How far is it from the

24 last front lines of the BH army in Mostar?

25 A. Well, about the same distance, I'd say.

Page 1039












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Page 1040

1 Q. 'Cause the centre of Mostar in --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and counsel not speak at one

3 and the same time because the interpreters cannot follow that.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

5 Q. And why was the BH army command -- was within the agreed Croat

6 rather than its own area of responsibility?

7 A. I really don't know.

8 Q. Well, if you don't know, then you don't know. Since you don't

9 know, I won't ask you about that, whether you think it logical or not.

10 Somebody else will do that. Thank you.

11 When did the massive move of Bosniaks from the HVO to the BH army

12 start, if you know?

13 A. I don't know, but I know that many Bosniaks were taken directly

14 from the HVO units to camps. I'm sorry, that's it.

15 Q. No, no, no. That's fine, fine. Okay with me. You are an

16 educated man, an intellectual, so you got my meaning. So I'm asking you

17 about before the 9th of May.

18 A. Oh, that, I don't.

19 Q. Oh, you don't know that. All right. Did you hear that in the

20 trenches on the lines where Bosniaks and Croats -- where Croats and

21 Bosniaks were together, one night the Bosniaks aimed their rifles at

22 Croats from whom they had got them, as, for instance, Bijelo Polje,

23 Mostar? Did you hear about that? If you did. I know that you can't know

24 because you were not there, but I'm asking you because you are kept

25 abreast of things very well. So did you hear about that or from whom? If

Page 1041

1 you didn't, you didn't.

2 A. If you mean in terms of the 9th of May.

3 Q. Before the 9th of May.

4 A. Oh, before the 9th May.

5 THE INTERPRETER: The witness waves his hand and says nothing.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

7 Q. If I am correct, in your private notes - and I'll come to that -

8 in your private notes, you spoke about the liberation of Bijelo Polje and

9 the event happened in 1993. Who did you liberate Bijelo Polje from? I

10 mean the BH army.

11 A. I think from members of the Yugoslav People's -- what was it

12 called then? The armed forces of the SDS, of the Serb Democratic Party.

13 We called them Chetniks. Some people called them Serb troops and so on.

14 Q. 1993?

15 A. 1993. No, I wasn't there. I wasn't there during that operation.

16 When that operation in Bijelo Polje happened, I wasn't there.

17 Q. Do you mean the operation conducted by the BH army?

18 A. BH army with the HVO.

19 Q. Excuse me, I'm asking about 1993. And I think that the war with

20 Serbs is a well-known thing, well analysed, but if we are to arrive at the

21 genesis, one has to start there, but not today.

22 Now, if you know, did the BH army have another commander anywhere

23 except in Vranica?

24 A. I think in the south camp, that is, south barracks.

25 Q. And what about the Mostar Hotel, the Ruza Hotel?

Page 1042

1 A. I know about Mostar, but that was vacated after the agreement.

2 There was a group there. I think that Humo was a commander there, but I'm

3 not sure.

4 Q. Today we talked a lot about Juka Prazina. What is his ethnic

5 origin?

6 A. I think he's a Bosniak.

7 Q. Jusuf Prazina, Juka, Bosniak of Islamic faith -- or not. Excuse

8 me, can I ask you, can a Croat be a Bosniak? I mean a Croat from

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, can he be a Bosniak, a Croat Bosniak or, as you say, a

10 Bosnian Muslim?

11 A. Well, I suppose it's a matter for a longer conversation. It can

12 sound strangely, Bosniak Croat or Croat Bosniak, a Bosniak Croat or

13 Croatian Bosniak, and I think these are matters for analysis. I really --

14 Q. No, my question is very simple. Can a Muslim from

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina -- it is logical for him to say, "I am a Bosniak

16 Muslim," whereas a Croat from Bosnia-Herzegovina who is a national,

17 they're all nationals in Bosnia-Herzegovina, he can therefore say, "I'm

18 Bosniak of Catholic faith," that is, a Croat.

19 Or does a Bosniak, when you say "Bosniak," does it automatically

20 mean that all these people are of Islamic faith? That is what I'm asking

21 you. Let's clarify this matter up because I see that you are, that you

22 are an intellectual, so you can help me.

23 A. Well, I will be happy to help you, and let's take my example, for

24 instance. In 1990 -- no, 1989, I did not -- I was not a believer. I was

25 a Muslim but not a believer. Before that --

Page 1043

1 Q. Yes, that's what you heard --

2 A. Well, I was a non-believing Muslim.

3 Q. Yes, yes, yes, we understand. After all, we went to school in the

4 same place, we had the same curriculum, not --

5 A. Before that, I was a non-believing Yugoslav. Then for a while I

6 was a Muslim, Muslim.

7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, witness, please. I am

8 really sorry I have to interrupt this very interesting exchange, but we

9 lost the transcript. I don't know if it is the case for everybody. I

10 think the transcript stopped some while ago and is it -- besides, this

11 very technical aspect of the conversation before you, I'd rather have a

12 question and answer with a slight pause between the two. So can you

13 please go more slowly.

14 Madam Registrar, is your transcript normal?

15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I think that Mr. Seric has a good

16 solution, as so often is the case, so let's make a break of 20 minutes.

17 Mr. Krsnik, I'm sorry, but I think it is much more sensible to do

18 that, and we shall be back here at ten to four. This session is

19 adjourned. Thank you.

20 Usher, will you please help the witness to leave the courtroom.

21 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 3.50 p.m.

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Please take your seats. Mr. Krsnik,

24 you can resume your cross-examination. Thank you. I said you could

25 resume your cross-examination. I believe that you and I have to pay

Page 1044

1 special attention in order not to speak too fast. So if I speak too fast,

2 you stop me, and if you speak too fast, I will stop you.

3 How much time have you got left?

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] About 20 minutes to half an hour.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel switch on his microphone,

6 please.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I said 20 to 30 minutes. Thank you,

8 Mr. Fourmy.

9 Q. Witness, can we go on?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Let us finish this discussion where we left off. We called it

12 debate, I believe. It wasn't a debate, it was a clarification of terms to

13 make this easier for everyone, because we are searching for truth here,

14 and we're dealing with the truth.

15 Could you agree -- could we agree on one thing? If in normal

16 communication somebody says "Bosniak," does it mean implicitly a Muslim, a

17 person of Islamic faith?

18 A. Yes, that is what is meant, but I think that is deeply wrong,

19 because a person who declares himself as Bosniak is not asked of what

20 faith he is. He may be a Catholic, Muslim, an atheist, Buddhist.

21 Q. I'm happy with that answer. That's precisely what I wanted to

22 hear. I wanted to hear you answer my question in precisely that way.

23 So can we conclude that Mr. Jusuf Prazina, known as Juka, is a

24 Bosniak Muslim?

25 A. I wouldn't dare to claim anything in that respect. I can only

Page 1045

1 give you my assumption, and my assumption is that he is.

2 Q. I'm very surprised to hear that, sir, because Mr. Juka Prazina is

3 a fairly well-known person in Bosnia-Herzegovina and, I believe, further

4 afield.

5 A. Yes. Regrettably, he died. He got killed. But I think if you

6 say that you're a Croat, I can't say that you're a Catholic in the same

7 breath, because it's up to you to tell me to which faith you belong.

8 Q. Let us keep this short. Can you rule out the possibility that

9 he's a Croat?

10 A. I believe he's not a Croat.

11 Q. Tell me, please, before the 9th of May or perhaps even before

12 1993, were you living or did you have an apartment in the east part of

13 Mostar?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And what about your family; your mother, sister?

16 A. No. I had some relatives, but not close relatives. Perhaps more

17 distant relatives.

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise for this little incident.

20 Q. Do you know if after the conflict with the Serbs or perhaps during

21 the conflict with the Serbs, let us call them the army of Republika Srpska

22 or the Serbian forces, if many Muslim refugees came to the western part of

23 Mostar?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could we agree on the fact that the Croats admitted them and

Page 1046

1 accommodated them?

2 A. Yes. And may I also assist you?

3 Q. I will put my questions to you. Did many apartments remain

4 vacant, apartments owned by Serbs who left or, rather, fled Mostar during

5 the conflict?

6 A. Quite a lot of them.

7 Q. Into those vacant apartments, did Muslims move in as well?

8 A. Yes, both Muslims and Croats.

9 Q. Clearly I asked whether Muslims moved in, too, in the entire area

10 of Mostar, both the west and the east side?

11 A. Well, you probably know this, but the east side of Mostar was

12 occupied by the Yugoslav army.

13 Q. That's what I wanted to hear.

14 A. Then the migration was towards the west side of Mostar.

15 Q. How many, if you can tell me, were the refugees, I mean Muslim

16 refugees, who came to the west side of Mostar? Approximately.

17 A. If it's not very important, I can say. I suppose it was about

18 2.000, maybe --

19 Q. Many more.

20 A. You have those figures. I agree with your data if you have exact

21 figures.

22 Q. My figures don't matter. It's the witnesses who have to provide

23 facts.

24 A. Well --

25 Q. No, I don't mean you, I mean expert witnesses. I don't have time

Page 1047

1 for this now because we have to hurry up our examination.

2 Do you know, perhaps, the approximate ratio of Muslims and Croats

3 in the west side of Mostar? Was it upset after the arrival of Muslim

4 refugees who were admitted, accepted by the Croats and given vacant

5 apartments? Were they put up anywhere else? Do you -- did you hear about

6 the pupil's home, the Partizan cinema?

7 A. It was mostly people from Podvelezje, a mountain on the east side

8 of Mostar and a part of Gacko, who were put up there. A part of refugees

9 came from Bijelo Polje, a large part came from the east side of Mostar to

10 the west side. I believe the situation in the city was very confused.

11 The city administration wasn't doing very well.

12 Q. Could you please slow down.

13 A. All right. And for that reason, in a way, people were grabbing

14 apartments, almost. "Grabbing" is perhaps too strong a word, but the

15 situation was out of control. Later, apartments were perhaps made

16 available in a more organised manner, but at that time it was not

17 organised. Perhaps "grabbing" is too harsh a term, but there was some of

18 that, too.

19 Q. Thank you very much for this answer indeed, but I do have to lead

20 you through this examination because you said a moment ago that they came

21 only from the east side of Mostar and now you gave us a more complete,

22 truthful picture. It's true that refugees came from other parts of Mostar

23 as well during the aggression of Serbs.

24 A. Yes, they did, through the east side of Mostar.

25 Q. To the west side?

Page 1048

1 A. Yes, to the west side.

2 Q. So it's logical, I believe, for me to ask whether the ratio was

3 upset, the structure of the population, was it upset after this?

4 A. I don't know exactly. I must tell you, I wasn't really concerned

5 with the structure.

6 Q. All right. All right. Were people grabbing - and I'm going to

7 use your term, which I like very much - apartments which were also in the

8 area of Vranica?

9 A. Yes.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "In the building of

11 Vranica."

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Please tell me - and I want to deal with the remaining questions a

14 bit faster - you mentioned the north camp. I know what you mean. For the

15 record, it's the former barracks of the JNA?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. Who was in that camp, the HVO or the army of Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina?

19 A. I can tell you this piece of information which I shared with the

20 Prosecutor's office; namely, one member of the HVO, who was Bosniak by

21 ethnicity and who had been in that northern camp, Tihomir Music, he said

22 that a group of HVO was located there as a quartermaster's unit, some sort

23 of kitchen.

24 Q. That camp, was it attacked by members of the BH army? Was it

25 taken over?

Page 1049

1 A. I heard about that event, and I read about it in the newspapers.

2 It was perhaps in the end of 1993 or the beginning of 1994. I'm not

3 sure.

4 Q. Is this camp now called by the nickname of Hujka? I know it's

5 called Hujdur.

6 A. Midhad Hujdur.

7 Q. Who was Hujka?

8 A. He was the commander of the BH army. I think it was the 1st

9 Motorised Brigade or something like that. I'm not sure.

10 Q. Was he defending the Vranica building?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And what about the members of his unit?

13 A. I don't know who were the members of his unit exactly. I really

14 don't know.

15 Q. We are now coming to the 9th of May; right? That's the day of

16 attack on Vranica, in your words.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The BH army passively watched on or was it supporting those 18

19 soldiers inside Vranica?

20 A. Taking into account that the attack was also on the Defence lines

21 in the centre of town, I can't see that army members could have come there

22 at all, but they provided support through -- on the radio, because that's

23 also something that I heard about.

24 Q. And we already specified where the lines were, where the

25 demarcation line was. Were they not providing other support as well,

Page 1050

1 including mortars, snipers, fire?

2 A. I don't believe there was any weaponry on the east side.

3 Q. In May 1993 there weren't any weapons on the side of the BH army?

4 A. They had weapons but not many.

5 Q. Just a minute. Then who destroyed West Mostar, the Croats

6 themselves?

7 A. You ask me specifically a question.

8 Q. Yes, specifically. You said there were no weapons. You lived in

9 Mostar, and I've been living in Mostar these -- recently.

10 A. I'll answer specifically. You asked who destroyed Western

11 Mostar.

12 Q. No. My question was about the weapons. You said they had no

13 weapons. Do you still continue to maintain that?

14 A. Look, I don't know what kind of weapons you mean.

15 Q. Oh, come on. You worked in the military industry, sir. You can

16 distinguish between -- you distinguish between a mortar and a cannon.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You distinguish between a sniper gun and M48.

19 A. Yes. May I tell you now what you asked me?

20 Q. Who destroyed the western part of Mostar?

21 A. Yes. So we're talking now about the 10th of May, the 9th and the

22 109 of May; right?

23 Q. Yes. Fine.

24 A. We went outside of the building, into the street. We were not

25 afraid from any bullets or shells. We walked to the -- from the economic

Page 1051

1 school to the tobacco institute without fearing any shelling or sniper

2 fire. And then you can answer me now who destroyed the western part of

3 Mostar, because I don't know.

4 Q. I thank you very much for this answer, because it's logical that

5 civilians should not be shot at.

6 A. I don't know who shot.

7 Q. As far as I can see, nobody did. I mean, at their column.

8 A. A column. That's a broad concept.

9 Q. I apologise in advance if I put to you a question which you do not

10 immediately understand, because I have your statements which I studied,

11 and I am familiar with your thoughts and your words. I have them in mind

12 now as I'm asking my questions, and that's why I'm asking them.

13 You said that you watched Mr. Naletilic on TV as guest of honour.

14 A. I think it was the 1st Guardist Brigade there and --

15 Q. You watched it personally on TV?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In your diary - and I must say it was very interesting to read -

18 you reminisced about the HVO and your affiliation. Did you get a

19 uniform? Were you issued with a uniform?

20 A. I can't say that I was issued with it, but I do have -- did have a

21 uniform.

22 (redacted)

23 A. No.

24 Q. And were you issued with any weapons?

25 A. No.

Page 1052

1 Q. You reflected about your attitude to the BH army and you were very

2 emotional and very sensitive in thinking about that, and you said you were

3 a member of the air force group in the BH army.

4 A. Yes, you could say that. It was at the very beginning of the war

5 in 1992.

6 Q. But there was no BH army then.

7 A. Well, there was some kind of air force group, that's true. You

8 noticed that well. But I wasn't on any lists. They asked from me a

9 computer, because I had a computer, so that they could design possible

10 signs for planes. But I did not take an oath before anyone ever. I was

11 formerly a member of the HVO.

12 Q. I'm just waiting for the translation; otherwise, I'm ready to put

13 my next question. Well, can we then note that you were a member of the BH

14 army, even in -- at least in that sense which you just mentioned?

15 A. No, we couldn't note that.

16 Q. Tell me, please, earlier today during your examination-in-chief --

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Of course, Mr. Fourmy, let us not go

18 back to our yesterday's discussion regarding our common language.

19 Q. You said something odd, that a glamourous funeral was organised,

20 and you said it in a surprised tone. I mean, that funeral in Medjugorje

21 of that gentleman from the Spanish Battalion who regrettably got killed,

22 what was surprising about a man who was killed and who had come to serve

23 peace, what was surprising about giving him such a funeral? It only meant

24 that the Catholics were paying their respects. As you know, that is

25 characteristic of Catholics.

Page 1053












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1054

1 A. It is a bit odd in view of the circumstances that he got killed by

2 that people who was making those Catholic things very prominent.

3 Q. You don't certainly know -- you don't know anything about these

4 events for sure?

5 A. I know something but not details.

6 Q. I know that you know only a little about everything.

7 But what was the importance of your answer? Why did you stress

8 that it was organised by the Catholic church when you know very well that

9 every Catholic funeral is organised by the Catholic church?

10 A. Possibly.

11 Q. Maybe the interpreters didn't hear you. Oh, yes, here it is.

12 Do you know how many Muslim units there were in the HVO in the

13 summer of 1992? Or even better, if you know, do you know the number of

14 Muslims and Croats in those units respectively, their ratio?

15 A. I can't give you a precise answer to that question.

16 Q. I'm not looking for one.

17 A. But if you're speaking about the area of Mostar or a little bit

18 further afield, I don't have those military figures with me. I never had

19 them. But I know that there were four battalions of the HVO, and there

20 were -- there was an independent Mostar battalion which later became the

21 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. There were many Muslims in the HVO then

22 because at that time they did not -- they were not paying attention to

23 ethnicity. At least, that's what seemed to be true to me.

24 Q. You mentioned the agreement reached in April 1993 which was signed

25 by Arif Pasalic and Miljenko Lasic. Do you know that personally,

Page 1055

1 firsthand?

2 A. I know because I met up with some people.

3 Q. Fine. So they told you?

4 A. They were important people.

5 Q. What does that mean to you, "important people"?

6 A. They were in positions of responsibility.

7 Q. So my first question is, who is Arif Pasalic; and the second is,

8 who is Miljenko Lasic?

9 A. Pasalic was the commander of the 4th Battalion, and Lasic was --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel and the witness please slow down.

11 We missed the last question and answer.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

13 Q. You mean he was a counterpart, Lasic was a counterpart of Arif

14 Pasalic?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Did you read the text of that agreement?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And do you know where Arif Pasalic's wife was after the 9th of

19 May, 1993?

20 A. No, I don't.

21 Q. You don't know.

22 A. I don't.

23 Q. And do you know what is his -- her ethnic background?

24 A. No, I don't know that either.

25 Q. I see. The command of the 4th Corps, was it in the basement of

Page 1056

1 the Vranica building?

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 A. Well, partly on the ground floor and partly on the basement.

11 Q. And under the agreement, were they supposed to move out of the

12 Vranica building?

13 A. No, I don't know. I don't know the text of the agreement.

14 Q. How many HVO units were attacking that building, in your view?

15 A. I can just make an educated guess, but I really don't agree.

16 Q. Oh, you don't know, I see. But since we're cooperating, well, you

17 see, let me clarify it. I asked you that because it doesn't seem logical

18 that 18 men, as you told us, defends such a building against all those

19 troops. So I think that my question was quite all right, with only rifles

20 at disposal, at their --

21 A. Well, yes, but on Bijeli Brijeg there must have been some heavier

22 weaponry.

23 Q. Do you know that or do you think?

24 A. No, I don't know that, but I'm guessing it, seeing of the damage

25 that was under the building.

Page 1057

1 Q. That is the only grounds for your assumption?

2 A. The only.

3 Q. Thank you. You said that BH army members changed into civilian

4 clothes in the Vranica building.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what did they do with their weapons?

7 A. That I really -- no. They must have left them somewhere, but

8 where, how, I don't know.

9 Q. You don't know?

10 A. No, I don't.

11 Q. I'm asking you because you told my learned friends that you walked

12 up and down that building left and right and all over. So that's why I

13 thought that you could have seen that.

14 A. No. It was just a moment of surrender. At the moment of

15 surrender, I'm telling you I didn't see what they did with their weapons.

16 Q. And tell us, could the HVO know -- was the HVO in the position to

17 know that somebody was a member of the BH army if he surrendered while

18 wearing civilian clothes?

19 A. Well, yes, because all those people knew one another.

20 Q. That was the only way?

21 THE INTERPRETER: No answer from the witness.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Then why did they hide their military clothes? Because that's

24 what you said; they changed and they hid the military clothes.

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 1058

1 Q. What identity papers, what personal papers did they show when they

2 came out in front of the building? Was it the HVO cards or the ABiH cards

3 or none of those?

4 A. I think they were -- it varied. I think that quite a number of

5 people had HVO cards.

6 Q. You said that you had been brought to the tobacco institute.

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. You were brought, and Tuta stood there with a group of people, is

9 it?

10 A. He was in front, alone with his escorts.

11 Q. Well, it does not agree with what you told us before.

12 A. I don't know what you mean.

13 Q. You said that you had been brought to the institute, that there

14 were very many important men there, and that one of them was Tuta. That

15 is what you said. Now, what is -- which is true?

16 A. No, no, no. That has -- that is a technical matter.

17 Q. No, no, no. That is not a technical matter. You are a

18 technician; I'm not.

19 A. There was a group of high HVO -- high-ranking officials of the HVO

20 were there in front of the building, but Mr. Naletilic was some ten metres

21 nearer us.

22 Q. And then why did you conclude that it was precisely Tuta who was

23 ordering everybody, issuing orders to everybody?

24 A. Well, because Juka practically handed us over to him.

25 Q. That was the only reason?

Page 1059

1 A. That was the only reason.

2 Q. And would you say that it was possible that he brought you there

3 in order to use the influence -- no, not the influence, but his

4 acquaintanceship with Tuta so as to have you released?

5 A. No, no, no, no, no. I wasn't alone. I was with a group.

6 Q. Right. Right. Very well. Never mind. So Juka was the one who

7 captured you. We can say that?

8 A. Yes, Juka and his men.

9 Q. Uh-huh, his men. And his men, if you know that, were they Muslims

10 or Croats?

11 A. There were some Croats there. There would have, could have been

12 some Muslims, but I'm quite sure that there were a couple of Croats, one

13 or two. At least one.

14 Q. One Croat?

15 A. One Croat.

16 Q. And what about the rest?

17 A. I don't know about the rest.

18 Q. Did everybody know? I'm referring to the area in front of the

19 tobacco institute. Did they all have HVO patches or did they have some

20 special ones?

21 A. They had HVO patches, and they have tricoloured bands, armbands.

22 Q. Was there any street fighting?

23 A. In the west part of the town? No.

24 Q. And the attack on the building in the centre of the city, you

25 wouldn't call that street fighting, and 300 metres away from BH army's

Page 1060

1 positions?

2 A. No. I mean --

3 Q. Just briefly, yes or no. I mean, do you consider this street

4 combat? Because when you say "street combat," the term means combat in

5 the street.

6 A. Well, I don't know how you understand it.

7 Q. Well, in street combats, you usually wear some bands, armbands or

8 something to show which army you belong to. But apart from the HVO and

9 that armband, did they have any other flashes, any other insignia,

10 anything?

11 A. No. I absolutely had no wish to try to clarify it, but you are

12 forcing me to answer. You are coercing me to an answer.

13 Q. No. I apologise. I'm asking about the armband.

14 A. Well, first you asked me about the building.

15 Q. Right. Very well. Never mind. Yes, go on.

16 A. No. I'm talking about the interpretation, because we seem to be

17 overlapping.

18 Q. So the attack of the Croat Defence Council on the building housing

19 the command post of the Bosnian-Herzegovinian army happened practically in

20 the centre part of the west part of Mostar. Will you agree with me about

21 that? You're answering. Never mind if I agree or not.

22 A. So this attack lasted for two days.

23 Q. You've already told us all that, and this is described in the

24 transcript.

25 A. You asked me about street combat. I'm putting to you that there

Page 1061

1 was no fighting in the streets of the west part of Mostar.

2 Q. Right. This is the answer to one part of my question. But I was

3 about to help you and explain why I asked you about street combat, but you

4 are talking, and, you know, I cannot say because you are protected.

5 Nevertheless, you are an educated man, so I think it is easier for me to

6 explain it to you.

7 A. Yes. Just go ahead.

8 Q. When I say "street combat," then at that time it derives from the

9 term "street." That is why I ask you. And how you interpret it, that is

10 up to you. But you gave me an answer. Right. Very well.

11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik --

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Just a moment. Just a little bit

13 more.

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I'm sorry but your cross-examination

15 has been lasting more than 1 hour, 40 minutes, whereas the direct

16 examination lasted much less. This is already - I don't know - the

17 umpteenth time I'm asking you to respect some of the equality of arms.

18 And we know that the direct examination lasted a reasonable period of

19 time, and if you go on like this, then we shall not be able to maintain

20 the pace that is necessary to finish with the depositions. Thank you.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. I was about

22 to finish. Perhaps two or three questions only I have left, but I must

23 ask you, Mr. Fourmy, with all due respect, these are major topics. They

24 cover vast areas. They cover an immense number of events, and it is

25 indeed very difficult to confine oneself to the time used by my learned

Page 1062

1 friends from the Prosecution, but I shall do my best, and let me try and

2 really make it as brief as possible.

3 Q. How did you know, when you described that beating, that it was

4 Tuta's men? How did --

5 A. They were his escorts.

6 Q. How do you know they were his escorts?

7 A. Well, I know that physically because they were together standing.

8 Q. And was that the only sign?

9 A. Well, then...

10 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the witness. Could the witness

11 either speak up or come closer to the microphone.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Is that your conclusion?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak up. We cannot

15 hear his answers.

16 A. Yes, by all means.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

18 Q. And tell me, this certificate, the copy of which we were given

19 some time ago, where is the original of that document?

20 A. I think that the original is somewhere here in the Tribunal.

21 MR. KRSNIK: One second.

22 [Defence counsel confer]

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Only two questions left.

24 Q. How did you know -- oh, sorry. You did say that they addressed

25 Mr. Naletilic as General. Did he have any rank insignia?

Page 1063

1 A. I don't know. No, I'm not aware of that. No, I'm not sure.

2 Q. Do you know who put fire to the Mostar Hotel prior to the 9th of

3 May?

4 A. No, I don't.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I've finished, but just

6 for the record, I'd like to ask you to put it on record that to my

7 question, that is, transcript page 117, line 17, when I asked if Miljenko

8 Lasic was Arif Pasalic's counterpart -- even the question is missing from

9 the transcript. This question was missing and the witness's answer to the

10 question are missing from the transcript.

11 I think, Mr. Fourmy, that that was at the time when we had

12 problems with the transcript. Yes, my colleague tells me that perhaps it

13 was then. So for the transcript, could we then take note of that,

14 please? Should I now ask a question? Should I now ask a question and get

15 an answer? And then we'll be finished.

16 Q. You remember my question, don't you? Was Miljenko Lasic [Realtime

17 transcript read in error "Milan Kopilas"] during these negotiations, was

18 he Arif Pasalic's counterpart?

19 A. And I said then that I didn't know, and I say it now.

20 Q. Thank you. It's only for the transcript, you know.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Just one more thing, for the record.

22 The witness said that the north camp is called Midhad Hujdur Hujka

23 barracks. This is for the transcript.

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, two things: I think that

25 the witness only referred to Midhad Hujka, not to Hujdur, but right now,

Page 1064

1 we can see that.

2 As for the other name, with regard to Arif Pasalic, the transcript

3 says "Milan Kopilas," and I do not think that is that name.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Oh, no. It says not.

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] So can we correct it?

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] It is Miljenko -- is it Miljenko

7 Lasic? Is that it?

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Could you please spell it out so we

9 can be sure.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes. Indeed, thank you very much for

11 your effort. Thank you very much. My colleague who was following the

12 transcript was about to say -- it was just when you started speaking that

13 she saw it on the screen. Thank you, I have finished.

14 Q. Thank you, Witness.

15 A. Thank you, too.

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Krsnik.

17 Mr. Seric?

18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] As the cross-examination by the

19 Defence of the first accused was very exhaustive indeed with regard to the

20 general circumstances about which the witness testified, and as in the

21 rest of his testimony he did not provoke the Defence of the second

22 accused, we have no reasons to do any cross-examination.

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Seric.

24 Mr. Scott, do you have any additional questions?

25 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. If I could have the usher's help to

Page 1065

1 have this marked as Exhibit P58. It should be the next exhibit, I

2 believe. We could not have numbered this or have translations,

3 Mr. Fourmy, because it only comes in response to cross-examination, so I'm

4 going to have to ask the witness to assist us in interpretation with,

5 perhaps, the assistance of the translation booth.

6 Mr. -- I'm sorry, Mr. Usher. Did I say -- perhaps I've given you

7 the wrong number. Fifty-eight may not have been the right number. No, we

8 have the wrong number, I'm sorry. Fifty-nine. My apology. No, it's

9 new. Okay. Yes, if you can put that part in front of him, please.

10 That's ...

11 THE INTERPRETER: Can we have it on the ELMO, please.

12 MR. SCOTT: Yes, as far as I'm concerned. You may need to move

13 the yellow sticky there because it probably -- it may block -- it was for

14 my benefit, I'm afraid.

15 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:

16 Q. Witness E, both in direct exam and on the cross-examination, you

17 were asked about this mass that was organised for the Spanish officer who

18 was killed, and there are a couple of questions that came out of that.

19 One is at the time on direct you didn't recall the date. I'd like to look

20 at -- I'd like you to look at this document. And for the record, I think

21 counsel already referred to this document a number of times, but these are

22 a series of notes that you apparently have made about these events.

23 If I can direct your attention to about the, oh, seven or eight

24 lines down from the top of that page that's on the ELMO, do you see there

25 a description about the mass for this killed Spanish officer? Starting on

Page 1066

1 the 8th of May, I believe. Do you have that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. In the interests of time, perhaps it's easier -- does it

4 say -- well, strike that. Would you read that to us, and then if the

5 translation will please help us. Could you just read the part that talks

6 about the -- in the evening of 8th of May, then you go on to the next

7 event. Go ahead, yes.

8 A. "In the night of the 8th of May on the eve of the general attack

9 on the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina --" shall I start again?

10 "In the night of the 8th of May on the eve of the general attack

11 on the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the HVO drove out," in inverted commas,

12 "the members of the Spanish Battalion of the UNPROFOR from the town.

13 Disgrace and horror. The citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina believed that the

14 UNPROFOR would be protecting them against any military attack."

15 Q. Would you stop there, please. Now, Witness E, does that refresh

16 your memory as to the date of the mass? Was it -- it was on the 8th of

17 May, wasn't it, according to your notes?

18 A. No, I don't think it was the 8th of May. It was later, but it is

19 within the same context --

20 Q. Well, do your notes say --

21 A. -- because --

22 Q. -- on that evening of the 8th of May?

23 A. Well, it says that they were driven out of the town.

24 Q. Did you -- what do you mean they were driven out of the town,

25 then?

Page 1067












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1068

1 A. Well, it is in inverted commas, that is, from the -- through the

2 window of the flat that I was in I could see an UNPROFOR vehicle leave its

3 usual place at the junction between Projektant and Vranica.

4 Q. All right. So the reference you have in your notes to the 8th of

5 May has nothing -- you're suggesting it has nothing to do with the mass in

6 the Medjugorje?

7 A. It doesn't. No, no.

8 Q. A final question, then, Witness E. On the -- in your observations

9 when you were at the tobacco institute on that -- after being taken there,

10 who, to your observation, did Juka subordinate himself to and take

11 direction from?

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Objection. I apologise.

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. I mean, this

15 question was already asked during the direct examination. We got an

16 answer.

17 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] This is repetitive.

19 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, Mr. Krsnik went on and on and on for

20 almost two hours. He also asked specific questions about this and

21 suggested that the witness was incorrect in his observations about what

22 was happening. I'm asking the witness to confirm exactly what he did see.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy --

24 MR. SCOTT: If counsel is prepared to stipulate that Juka took

25 direction and was ordered by Tuta, then we have an agreement and we can go

Page 1069

1 on; but he attacked the issue on cross-examination, and I'm entitled to

2 come back to it on redirect.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy --

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] No, no, no. Oh, no. No, I'm sorry.

5 I tried to indicate it with my hand. Perhaps I need a very long stick or

6 a gavel to try to ensure some discipline or perhaps to conduct this

7 orchestra here, but I have to wave my hands. No, I need perhaps three

8 conductors to manage this. I'm sorry, I am joking.

9 I think it is quite legitimate for a party to answer. I'm in the

10 middle of two different points of view, especially those which are

11 antagonistic. But Mr. Krsnik, if you wish to answer, yes, do that, but I

12 have to wait for the interpretation of what I have just heard to end. And

13 if the French is over, I believe the other two languages will be finished,

14 will be over, too, because French is longer than either of the two. But

15 we must have equality between Prosecution and Defence.

16 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. I should like

18 to ask you and my learned friend Mr. Scott not to have such discussions in

19 front of witnesses because Mr. Scott right now said what he wanted to

20 learn without even asking his question. So I should like to ask if such

21 questions are asked and if there is a discussion between two parties, then

22 can we have the witness out of the courtroom briefly until we clarify the

23 matter? Because this now has lost all purpose of the objectivity. Thank

24 you.

25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, I'd really hate to have

Page 1070

1 to go, this is -- I'd hate to have to go to the substance because this is

2 not an area which I would like to tackle.

3 Some questions were asked by the Prosecution of the witness. You

4 took up the same subject but from a different point of view. Notably, if

5 I may mention that with regard to the person or persons who could have

6 been present at a moment when the witness was transferred, in inverted

7 commas, from one person to another person. This is just a suggestion,

8 therefore, because the Prosecutor does have some legitimacy to ask one

9 question of the witness, one question about that.

10 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, with due respect, you

12 have further clarified the question, and therein lies the merit of that

13 question. And this witness - let us go to the end and now the Defence

14 will go on to say more - his answer was that it was his conclusions. Now

15 that we have clarified everything, I see no meaning in asking any

16 questions about this any more. But of course you will make your decision

17 and I will accept it.

18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, can I understand this as

19 a possibility for the Prosecutor to ask the question, one question only?

20 Because it's not up to me, really. And he will soon finish the redirect

21 and thus we will be able to finish this working day.

22 [Defence counsel confer]

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I hold Mr. Scott in very high

24 esteem, and I believe Mr. Scott can see this. I hold him in very high

25 regard as a professional, and I think after this discussion, he will put

Page 1071

1 his question in a very professional manner.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Krsnik. Please turn

3 off your microphone.

4 Mr. Prosecutor, if you wish to continue within the limits that we

5 have just discussed.

6 MR. SCOTT: Well, I have to say, Mr. Fourmy, that this is

7 objectionable. Counsel's gone on for hours now, and I basically have sat

8 back and let him ask endless questions about this, and now I'm saying --

9 now I'm limited to one question, and I say it's quite surprising, really.

10 But I want to bring this to an end. I want to bring this to an end,

11 Mr. Fourmy, so I will ask one question, but there has to be a better way

12 of -- there has to be a better way of doing this.

13 Q. Witness E, will you please tell us, who did you see -- when Juka

14 took you in to the tobacco institute, who did you see Juka subordinate

15 himself to and take direction from? It's a very simple question.

16 A. Well, Juka brought us outside the building of the tobacco

17 institute and turned us over to Mr. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, and he was

18 subordinated to him during that operation of handover/takeover.

19 MR. SCOTT: No further questions, Mr. Fourmy.

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor.

21 Witness, your deposition is concluded. Thank you very much for

22 coming here. The Judges who will see and, of course, hear your testimony

23 are also grateful to you, and I wish you a very safe return to your

24 country.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, for doing a very

Page 1072

1 important work which is meaningful and significant for all of humanity,

2 and I will hope that the Defence will also appreciate the importance of

3 participating in such an important process.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I see it's five to five. I think

7 we've had a very long day indeed, and I suggest that we adjourn.

8 If you allow me, I think that we could -- Mr. Krsnik, may I, if I

9 can allow myself, sometimes I see in you a little boy whom I used to know

10 who is hiding in the back of the classroom to be able to talk about what

11 he wishes to talk about. What I wanted to see is a different way of

12 work. We have worked very well until now. I think the discussions we've

13 had so far are quite normal and quite customary within the framework of

14 the procedure of depositions. The only difference being that we are

15 discussing very important things. But I must remind you that the decision

16 about these depositions were made by Judges who set a certain framework.

17 I think it is usual for witnesses who come here, regardless of

18 their importance, are actually a little less important than those who will

19 appear at the trial. Therefore, we should always bear in mind that we are

20 taking information down here, and doubtlessly not all the information

21 gathered here will be the object of discussion until the trial itself and

22 no conclusions can be drawn until the trial about them.

23 I must say another thing very insistently, that an effort needs to

24 be made, namely, regarding the length of statements, depositions. We have

25 three more witnesses to hear, that is, to depose, in order to finish this

Page 1073

1 week, and those are all the witnesses who are physically present in The

2 Hague. I think it is certainly in the interest of all of us, especially

3 the witnesses, to avoid having to keep them here through the weekend.

4 In order to be able to go through three witnesses tomorrow, we'll

5 have to proceed at a higher speed, which doesn't mean speaking more --

6 faster still. And I have to address this to you in particular,

7 Mr. Krsnik, because both you and I speak very fast indeed.

8 When I say working more quickly, that means working better, and

9 that means perhaps shorter, more concise, more focused questions, which

10 means questions easier for the witness. The Office of the Prosecutor has

11 so far conducted brief examinations-in-chief, and I am always asking from

12 the Defence, and Mr. Seric, you have assisted us greatly in this because I

13 am also asking for the cross-examinations to be brief as well, and the

14 principle of our depositions from this moment on should be to give us a

15 panoramic view of the facts cited in the indictment which relate

16 specifically to each of the accused.

17 However, the Judges will ultimately, thanks to all of you, get

18 this broad picture. But right now, we are just putting together small

19 pieces of the puzzle, and that is a big task, certainly. I think this is

20 enough for now.

21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I apologise. I will try to be brief.

22 Regarding what you've just said, I would like to say that it would be

23 helpful, since we are proceeding from the theory that those witnesses are

24 less important, we should clarify the concept of "less important

25 witnesses." Perhaps the Prosecutor could help us on this and tell us what

Page 1074

1 it means, "less important witnesses." Then perhaps the attitude of the

2 Defence could be more flexible.

3 I would like to understand the procedural meaning of the concept

4 "less important witnesses." Does it mean that the Trial Chamber will

5 find that conviction could not be based on the statement of such a witness

6 and that the witness is less important in that sense?

7 In any case, we would like to be told what exactly it means, "less

8 important witness," and we'll formulate our stance proceeding from that.

9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Par, I believe that you are

10 telling words of wisdom, and the words that I have spoken, as you know,

11 are not mine. What you've just said suggests indubitably that the Defence

12 and Prosecution can, as has been suggested on several occasions, meet and

13 more easily find, that is, identify instruments for abbreviating debates

14 here in the courtroom and depositions in general. You should take time to

15 think about this until tomorrow, and I thank you in advance for making an

16 effort to go through three witnesses tomorrow.

17 Thank you. We are adjourned.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.02 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Friday, the 27th day

20 of July, 2001, at 9.15 a.m.