Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1075

1 Friday, 27 July 2001

2 [Depositions Hearing]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.24 a.m.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning. Please be seated. I

7 apologise for the delay. We are engaged in a relatively orderly

8 proceedings, and we can make up for the delay.

9 Mr. Prosecutor, are you requesting protective measures for this

10 witness?

11 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. Fourmy, we are. Before the witness is

12 brought in, I would like to make one brief comment, if I may.

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Please do so.

14 MR. STRINGER: All of us on the Prosecution bench were a bit

15 troubled about some of the remarks that were made yesterday at the end of

16 the proceedings, although I'm sure nothing was intended.

17 There was some discussion about whether some witnesses are more

18 important than other witnesses, and I think there was some impression

19 that's been created that the Prosecution or, at least, one of the parties

20 feels that some witnesses - these witnesses, perhaps, because they're

21 depositions witnesses - are less important than the witnesses who are

22 going to be testifying in the main hearing before the full Trial Chamber,

23 and that's troubling to us.

24 Just for the record we want to state emphatically that every

25 witness is important. Every witness is extremely important. Certainly

Page 1076

1 that's our view. And I think that we -- this issue is partially a result

2 of something I said during the witness -- during the testimony of one of

3 the witnesses earlier this week in which I referred to the Trial Chamber's

4 decision on which they indicated that the witnesses would probably receive

5 less weight in terms of their evidence because they were not appearing

6 before the full Trial Chamber, but that is not in any way to suggest that

7 these or any witnesses who are going to give evidence in these proceedings

8 are not important witnesses.

9 The Prosecutor intends to rely on the testimony and the evidence

10 of these witnesses fully, 100 per cent, just as equally and just as fully

11 as we will rely on the evidence and the testimony that's presented by the

12 witnesses who appear later before the full Trial Chamber.

13 And we have, I think, if I may say so, we have attempted, perhaps

14 more than any other case to date, and we have succeeded in applying the

15 Rules in this case in a way that enables us to hopefully proceed in the

16 most expeditious manner through this case, taking advantage of what used

17 to be 94 ter, what is now 92 bis, Rule 71, which is what we're doing

18 today, and then the witnesses themselves when they testify during the full

19 hearing.

20 We've attempted to do that because the Trial Chamber has urged us

21 to do it, and we have attempted to accommodate the Trial Chamber's

22 demands, which we recognise are grounded legitimately in concerns

23 involving expedition, efficiency, and conservation of resources. But

24 that -- our willingness to put witnesses into this case as Rule 71

25 witnesses should not be interpreted as some sort of agreement or

Page 1077

1 concession on the part of the Prosecutor that one category of witnesses,

2 whether they're Rule 71 witnesses or 92 bis statement witnesses, that the

3 evidence of any of those witnesses is any less important than the evidence

4 presented by the witnesses appearing in the full hearing. And that's an

5 important point for us, and we wanted to make sure that the record clearly

6 reflected that we view these all as important, critical witnesses.

7 That's the remark I wanted to make, Mr. Fourmy. And having said

8 that, I'm ready to proceed to our next important witness.

9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, I think that the

10 whole file regarding depositions will reflect what you have said, and Mr.

11 Par made his remark yesterday. I would like to say that this notion of

12 importance is not one that I necessarily approved. It was repeatedly

13 referred to, not only within Chamber I, and that is the diversity among

14 witnesses, and to simplify things, the word "hierarchy" was used, that

15 witnesses under 71 were placed below the witnesses that will appear before

16 the Chamber itself.

17 However, in the decision of the 10th of November 2000, on page

18 1.789 of the Registry, the Chamber wrote: "Bearing in mind, furthermore,

19 that the Prosecution believes that the witnesses called to depose are

20 less," in quotation marks, "'important' than those that will appear in

21 person before the Trial Chamber itself, and it proposes that their

22 depositions be collected prior to the beginning of trial."

23 So I don't think that the term itself was used in an inappropriate

24 fashion, and since you wish to convey to us your observations, I thought

25 it was important to note what may be said by both parties and even more

Page 1078

1 so, what has been written.

2 I don't know whether the Defence has any observation to make.

3 Mr. Krsnik? Mr. Seric? Mr. Par, perhaps? Mr. Krsnik.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

5 I didn't understand Mr. Par's comment as a remark but rather as a

6 question to the Prosecution, precisely because the second witness -- with

7 regard to the second witness, my learned friend Mr. Stringer himself said

8 this, and we started the discussion because we are constantly being

9 hurried up for the sake of expediency. I wish to state on this occasion

10 that the Defence quite rightly considered these Prosecution witnesses to

11 be important witnesses, and that is why we prepared thoroughly for our

12 cross-examination, so as to check the credibility of the witnesses. What

13 I do wish to underline is, when they spoke about sensitivity to justice

14 and the expediency of proceedings, it is my opinion that once depositions

15 start, that there may not be any haste. Haste should be shown when the

16 accused arrive at this Tribunal and that they should be brought to trial

17 as soon as possible, rather than having to wait for the trial itself,

18 through no fault of their own, and the time being spent while they are in

19 detention should be spent on the proceedings itself.

20 Instead of that, when the trial begins, everyone seems to be in a

21 hurry. I think that that is not in the interests of justice. What is in

22 the interests of justice is for us to use all available means to establish

23 the whole truth, and the time that takes should not be of the greatest

24 importance. Thank you.

25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you Mr. Krsnik.

Page 1079

1 Mr. Seric?

2 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Fourmy. Good

3 morning to my learned friends opposite. I should like to thank our

4 colleagues from the Prosecution for their additional effort and for giving

5 to us the English versions of the testimony of these witnesses that we

6 will be deposing and which is most helpful for us so that we can submit

7 English translations together with any other documents that we may wish to

8 show the witnesses. Thank you for that.

9 I would I to observe, Mr. Fourmy, that - and I agree with

10 Mr. Stringer - that colleague Par posed a rhetorical question that the

11 statement of a witness is personal evidence, and regardless of in what

12 stage of the proceedings it is taken in, it is of equal value for justice

13 and of equal probative value. And it is in view of this that we devoted

14 adequate attention to these witnesses.

15 We are fully aware, as my colleague Krsnik said, that the

16 principle of efficiency and justice and fairness really compete in all

17 trials, and already now this is evidenced in the course of these

18 depositions.

19 It is difficult to reconcile those two principles, but I think

20 that we are succeeding, to judge by the rate at which we are proceeding,

21 and we are trying to reconcile these two principles as much as possible,

22 and we believe that by the end we will succeed. But I do agree with

23 Mr. Krsnik, and I should like to emphasise that the principle of economy

24 of time must not gain precedence over the principle of justice and

25 fairness and the establishment of the truth because that is, indeed, not

Page 1080

1 only in the interests of our clients, but in the interests of justice.

2 This sounds like an academic pleading, but I think it is something

3 that needs to be underlined at this stage already.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Par, you have something to add?

5 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I think I have received an

6 answer to the question I put yesterday. Mr. Stringer has been most

7 helpful, as have you. But it seems to me that the answer to that question

8 is that for them, for the Prosecution, these witnesses are important,

9 whereas the Trial Chamber will judge them as less important. So I think

10 there's no further dilemma with that regard, and I have nothing more to

11 add. Thank you.

12 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Par.

13 No, excuse me, it is not the Chamber itself that decided that

14 there are witnesses that are more or less important. The word was taken

15 up by the Chamber because it was used by the Prosecution. I refer to page

16 3 of the Prosecution motion of the 11th of October, 2000, and my intention

17 never was except to use the words, words which I immediately defined as

18 not being mine, because, if I may express a personal opinion, I believe

19 that everything that we have done since the beginning of this week shows

20 how all of us here consider these depositions to be important.

21 And in this motion of the 11th of October that I have just

22 mentioned, I read in paragraph 6, and I'm going to read in English, I

23 apologise for my accent: " [In English] [Previous translation continues]

24 ... based on the nature and significance of the testimony in this case.

25 Witnesses whose testimony is deemed to be the most significant and

Page 1081

1 important to the case such that they should be examined and cross-examined

2 in person before the fully constituted Trial Chamber at trial are not --"

3 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] "... for deposition or affidavit."

5 There we are. So I think that we should refer to things such as

6 they stand.

7 Mr. Prosecutor, can we now go on to the deposition, speedy but

8 fair, to use the words of the Statute, of the next witness with protective

9 measures that you will be kind enough to remind us of.

10 MR. STRINGER: Yes, thank you, Mr. Fourmy. If I could add one

11 final remark, with your permission.

12 First of all, I didn't mean to suggest that this issue is one that

13 originated from you, and if that was what you or anyone else understood,

14 then I apologise. Secondly, clearly the Rules provide for a hierarchy,

15 and in order to satisfy the Trial Chamber that these deposition witnesses

16 were appropriate to testify as deposition witnesses, certainly the

17 Prosecutor has to make representations about where the witnesses would

18 fall within the hierarchy. And to the extent that the way in which we've

19 gone about doing that has given rise to some idea that they're less

20 important, which, after all, is a very general and perhaps subjective

21 term -- I wrote the motion that you've referred to, and I take

22 responsibility for what was said in that motion. And I can promise you

23 that in any future attempts to identify witnesses as falling within any of

24 the particular -- the hierarchy that exists within the Rules, we will take

25 pains to make sure that it is done in a way which does not suggest that

Page 1082

1 some witnesses are more or less important than others.

2 But that's, I think, the reason or how we got here is because we

3 have had to certainly make judgments about where witnesses fall within the

4 hierarchy, and to the extent that I or anything I have said or written has

5 contributed to this misunderstanding, then I want to apologise for that;

6 and, again, to make it clear that we view all of them as important,

7 regardless of where they would fall within the hierarchy that is now found

8 under the Rules of Procedure here at the Tribunal.

9 Mr. Fourmy, the witness, the next witness has requested

10 protective --

11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer, just a moment, please,

12 if I may. Yes, thank you, Mr. Stringer for this clarification. To

13 paraphrase a famous English author, all are equal, but some are more equal

14 than others.

15 Our witness, please.

16 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Fourmy, the next witness has requested

17 protective measures: face distortion, pseudonym, and also voice

18 distortion. I see the equipment for the voice distortion appears at the

19 witness's seat, so I believe we're ready to proceed.

20 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym for this witness will be Witness F.

21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar.

22 Mr. Krsnik.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. For the

24 record, I don't think we have fully clarified this point regarding what

25 was said today by my learned friend. I remember very well when the time

Page 1083

1 "less important witnesses" was used. It was during the examination of

2 Witness B -- I'm sorry, I don't think he enjoyed any protection. And in

3 answer to a question from me addressed to that witness, Mr. Stringer

4 objected, and in elaborating his objection, he said that these were less

5 important witnesses.

6 The discussion we have had this morning, for me, as Defence

7 counsel of Mladen Naletilic, is not acceptable. Thank you.

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Krsnik, but I'm afraid

9 I don't understand at all what you mean.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Let me try and repeat myself very

11 briefly. When Mr. Stringer objected to one of my questions - we all have

12 the transcript and we can check this out - he said -- I can't quote him

13 precisely because I wouldn't like to do that without having the transcript

14 in front of me, but I remember very well that my question had no point and

15 that there was no purpose in going ahead with that line of questioning

16 because these were less important witnesses or a witness. I do apologise

17 if I've misquoted to a point what was said because I don't have the

18 transcript.

19 Today, we hear something quite different. Now, we hear the

20 general position of the Prosecution, which I accept. In fact, the

21 position of the Prosecution is up to them, that is their strategy, and I

22 fully respect it. But these are two different interpretations, I must

23 say. I just wanted to say this for the sake of clarity, for the record,

24 that we had two different positions, and I do not wish to insist on that

25 any further.

Page 1084

1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very well. I think I understand you

2 now, Mr. Krsnik.

3 Mr. Stringer, I don't think there is any need to respond any

4 further, unless you insist, and maybe we could have the witness brought

5 in, if that suits you.

6 MR. STRINGER: I do not insist, and it does suit me very well, in

7 view of the ambitious schedule that's been placed in front of us today, to

8 have the witness brought in.

9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

10 Mr. Usher, please.

11 I don't know about the technical booth, whether the picture is

12 going to be distorted or -- for the public gallery, which is very small,

13 there are very few people, but we must make sure that the face of the

14 witness is not seen as he walks into the courtroom.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning. Can you hear me?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.

18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning. You asked for measures

19 of protection.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] A pseudonym has been given to you,

22 and that is Witness F, and I am always going to call you by that

23 pseudonym. This is solely for the purpose of providing the protection you

24 have requested. And also, you will see that you have facial distortion on

25 the screen. Also your voice will be distorted. Thank you for coming.

Page 1085

1 Before your deposition, the usher will give you the wording of a solemn

2 declaration which I should like to ask you to read.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness F. Please sit

8 down. Make yourself as comfortable as possible. The important thing is

9 that you speak into the microphone so that we can understand you properly

10 even though your voice is distorted. I'm sure that they have explained to

11 you how things work.

12 I'm going to first ask you to confirm whether that is your name,

13 without uttering it. Is that your name, please?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Mr. Usher, show that to the parties.

17 And then the Prosecutor will have questions for you. After that,

18 it will be the turn of the Defence. There are two Defence counsel. I

19 still don't know whether both of them will have questions for you, but we

20 will see when the time comes. And then there may be additional questions

21 from the Prosecution.

22 Please try and answer as clearly and fully as possible.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] On the basis of the knowledge that

25 you have, things that you saw and heard and were able to observe. So

Page 1086












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1087

1 please feel at ease. I'm not a Judge, I'm only a presiding officer, and

2 everyone here wishes to hear the information that you have to give for the

3 judges who will later be studying these depositions.

4 Mr. Prosecutor, your witness for the examination-in-chief.

5 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

6 Examined by Mr. Stringer:

7 Q. Good morning, Witness F.

8 A. Morning.

9 Q. Witness F, let me ask you a couple of general questions. Are you

10 a Bosnian Muslim and have you lived in -- for your entire life in the city

11 of Mostar, Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in 1992 and 1993, were you married and do you have children?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And at some point during that period of time, did you join the

16 HVO?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And were you a member of the HVO 4th Battalion?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And at that time, who was the commander of the HVO 4th Battalion?

21 A. Mladen Misic.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor?

23 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. Fourmy.

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me. I'm not quite sure; at

25 least the French booth is having a problem with the hearing of the

Page 1088

1 witness. Does it have to do to the position -- no, no the English booth

2 is not having any problems with the witness. It is rather with the

3 Prosecution. Could you continue, please? Could the technical booth do

4 something to assist the French booth, please?

5 I apologise, Mr. Stringer for interrupting.

6 MR. STRINGER: That's no problem. Shall I continue?

7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.

8 MR. STRINGER: Thank you.

9 Q. Now, Witness F, I was just about to ask you can you tell us when

10 did you join the HVO, approximately?

11 A. The 3rd of November 1992.

12 Q. Now, at that time, and in the months that followed, were there

13 other Muslim members of the HVO?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was it rare for a Muslim to be a member of the HVO or was it not

16 rare?

17 A. It was not.

18 Q. And during those first months as a member of the HVO 4th

19 Battalion, did you participate in any of the activities of the 4th

20 Battalion?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you participate by going to front-line positions in the area

23 during those periods of time?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were these front-line positions against the Serbs; is that

Page 1089

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And so during those first months with the HVO, was it Bosniaks and

4 Croats together manning these positions against the Serbs?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were there any difficulties or mistrust between the Bosniaks and

7 the Croats that you saw at that time?

8 A. No.

9 MR. STRINGER: My microphone was turned off for a brief moment. I

10 don't know if the question was heard or not. Okay. We are all right.

11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Prosecutor. The reason is,

12 I think, that it is easier to hear the voice of the witness if your

13 microphone is switched off when the witness is answering. I know this is

14 a nuisance, but if you can, switch it off and then put it on again when

15 the witness completes his answer. Thank you.

16 MR. STRINGER: I'll try to remember to do that.

17 Q. Now, Witness F, I'd like to direct your attention to the month of

18 April in 1993, specifically whether you recall coming or being called to

19 come to a meeting of the HVO 4th Battalion?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you recall who was the -- who spoke at that meeting?

22 A. Mladen Misic, with the companies.

23 Q. Now, were you and other Muslim members of the 4th Battalion given

24 some choices at that meeting?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1090

1 Q. What are the choices that you were given?

2 A. The line towards the Chetniks or over there where there had

3 already been some kind of line against the Muslims. So there were these

4 two options.

5 Q. All right. Now, if I understand you correctly, you're saying the

6 option was to either defend a line against the Serbs or to defend a line

7 against the Muslims; is that correct?

8 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

9 Q. And what's the choice that you made?

10 A. Well, the choice I made -- I mean, out of the two, I chose the

11 line against the Serbs.

12 Q. And now, in the days that followed this meeting, did you

13 participate in moving the headquarters and the equipment of the HVO 4th

14 Battalion?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Originally, where was this headquarters located?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer. The

18 English interpreter did not understand it.


20 Q. Can you give us your answer again, please, the location of the 4th

21 Battalion at the time of the meeting.

22 A. It was at Rondo, the military and all the military equipment.

23 Q. Was this a place called Dom Kulture?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And where was this military equipment moved to?

Page 1091

1 A. The Heliodrom.

2 Q. And was this military equipment and arms of the HVO 4th Battalion?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know why these -- the equipment and arms of the 4th

5 Battalion were moved from the Dom Kulture at the Rondo out to the

6 Heliodrom?

7 A. Well, because the separation line was so close where the army was

8 and their units, and probably because of some kind of security. So this

9 transfer was made to the Heliodrom.

10 Q. Now, just for the record, the Rondo that you've described, is this

11 located in the city centre of Mostar?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And can you tell us approximately how far outside the city of

14 Mostar is the Heliodrom?

15 A. A few kilometres. Well, I don't know. Let's say three, four. I

16 can't say exactly. Three or four kilometres.

17 Q. And again, Witness F, just for the record, the Heliodrom, as I

18 understand it, is a large military installation of the JNA before the war.

19 It had many buildings and was a rather large place. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, after you participated in moving the equipment and arms of

22 the 4th Battalion to the Heliodrom, did you then return to the Serb front

23 line as a member of the HVO 4th Battalion?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And was that in the early part of May 1993?

Page 1092

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And how many days did you spend up on the Serb front line at that

3 time?

4 A. Well, people would spend two days at the line.

5 Q. And then after you completed this two-day rotation, did you return

6 to Mostar?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you first turn in your weapon at the Heliodrom?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, when you returned to Mostar, did you join your family there?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were you living on the west side of Mostar at that time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And Witness F, again, so all -- everyone knows a little bit about

15 the city of Mostar, Mostar, as I understand it, has a river that runs

16 directly through the centre of the city. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the river is called the Neretva River?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And so, then, you were living on the west side of the Neretva

21 River; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, at the time, can you tell me approximately the date on which

24 you returned to your family in west Mostar from this Serb front line

25 position in May?

Page 1093

1 A. On the 7th of May.

2 Q. And at that time, were you aware of any attacks or military

3 operations that the HVO had planned in the city of Mostar?

4 A. I was not.

5 Q. Now, on the -- I'd like to direct your attention now to the 8th of

6 May, 1993, and in particular, whether you saw anything unusual from your

7 flat on that day.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell us what you saw, please.

10 A. Well, during the night between the 8th and the 9th of May, I saw a

11 concentration of soldiers. I saw lots of soldiers with weapons and

12 equipment and I don't know what all. They were placing weapons there

13 because there were PATs there and PAMs there.

14 Q. Can you tell us, what is a PAT and what is a PAM?

15 A. What do you mean by that?

16 Q. Can you describe a little more, in a little bit more detail these

17 guns that you just mentioned, these weapons?

18 A. Well, the PAM was on a vehicle that was moving. I mean, they

19 would shoot from one position and then they would move on to another

20 position. It was on the move all the time.

21 Q. Was the PAM a truck-mounted anti-aircraft machine-gun?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you say you saw this on the 8th of May; is that correct?

24 A. Yes. During the night, yes.

25 Q. Now, can you tell us, please, Witness F, what happened and what

Page 1094

1 you saw and heard the following morning, the 9th of May, 1993?

2 A. Well, at dawn on the 9th of May, it was a Sunday around 5.00 in

3 the morning, the aggression started, the attack with all the equipment

4 that the HVO had against the eastern part of the town of Mostar.

5 Q. And Witness F, then at some point on the 9th of May, did soldiers,

6 HVO soldiers come into your building?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you able to see what they were doing, and if so, can you tell

9 us, please?

10 A. Well, in front of every building there were a few of their

11 soldiers. Allegedly, they had some kind of lists of people who were

12 eligible and who were not eligible, and they were taken out of the

13 buildings and they were brought there. And then they were taken down

14 Panjevina to some kind of collection centre.

15 Q. Let me ask you a couple of questions about what you just said.

16 Again, just to be clear, the soldiers, can you tell us generally what

17 military group they belonged to?

18 A. There was the 4th Battalion there. There were Tuta's men, Juka's

19 men, Juka Prazina's men.

20 Q. Are we talking generally about the HVO?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. And you said some people were taken out of their flats. Can you

23 tell us any more about these people? Were they men, women? What was

24 their national or ethnic background, if you know?

25 A. There were men and women, and there were Muslims, too.

Page 1095

1 Q. Were there Croats being taken out of their flats on that day?

2 A. No way, no way. They were not.

3 Q. And at some point during that day, did soldiers come to your flat,

4 and can you tell us what happened, please?

5 A. Yes, yes. They came to my apartment, too. However, I am talking

6 about my building where I was. They came there. However, since I was a

7 member of the 4th Battalion, at that time I had that new ID that was being

8 given out. So I have this ID, and I managed to stay behind. I was not

9 taken away.

10 Q. And so then did you continue to live in your flat with your family

11 until the 30th of June 1993?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And can you tell us what if anything happened then on the evening

14 or the night of the 30th of June 1993?

15 A. Well, when Bijelo Polje fell, well, because the soldiers, the HVO,

16 they were defeated up there at Bijelo Polje, I don't know, the Northern

17 Camp fell. And then they started taking the Muslim population en masse,

18 myself too.

19 Q. Now, you mentioned that Bijelo Polje fell, and then also the north

20 camp. Is this the result of an attack from the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

21 against these HVO locations?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And then as a result of that, are you saying that these arrests

24 then began on the 30th of June?

25 A. Well, yes, certainly. That's one of the reasons. As for the

Page 1096

1 period from the 9th of May until the 30th of June, a large number of HVO

2 soldiers were Muslims, simply did not want to obey them any more, because

3 this was not the same kind of war, the war waged against the Chetniks.

4 This was a different thing, so very many did not want to go along any more

5 and they simply went to people's houses and they arrested all of us, me

6 included. I was taken to the Heliodrom in a military uniform.

7 Q. Now, when you say you were arrested, can you tell us, if you know,

8 who arrested you? Can you describe these people?

9 A. (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 one who gave the instructions, and of course with them were -- were these

15 other soldiers.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The English interpreter did not get all the

17 localities that were mentioned very fast.


19 Q. Witness F, can I ask you -- it would help the interpreters if you

20 would speak a little more slowly. So try to listen to my questions and

21 give a full but succinct answer, if you can, and speak a little more

22 slowly, okay?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, let me ask you about that. Just again, you mentioned the 4th

25 Battalion and then you mentioned other soldiers, if I understand you

Page 1097

1 correctly. These other soldiers, can you describe them? And if you were

2 able to learn what unit they belonged to, please tell us.

3 A. One of them, when they took me away, I mean, one of them belonged

4 to Tuta's units.

5 Q. And how do you know that?

6 A. I know that because that man lived at Panjevina, and we were

7 friends, Vucic was his last name, Bobo was his name.

8 Q. Okay. Now, you said were you taken out. What happened to you,

9 then, when you were taken out of your flat by these soldiers?

10 A. Well, we were waiting out there in front of the building, I and

11 Dzemo Droce.

12 Q. And were there other Muslim men who had also been taken out from

13 their flats?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, while you and these other men were outside, did you notice

16 anyone in particular who appeared to be some sort of an HVO commander?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Are you able to tell us his name? Did you hear others calling him

19 by his name?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was his name?

22 A. Predrag Mandic, nicknamed Lija.

23 Q. Now, during the time that you and others were now outside, did you

24 observe that this Predrag Mandic, Lija, did something with a couple of the

25 other men that were out there with you?

Page 1098












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Page 1099












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Page 1100

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, at this time, I don't want you to mention their names. We

3 will come back to that at the end of your testimony. But can you just

4 tell us generally what took place as regards to these two men?

5 A. Well, Lija himself put them into a car, an Argenta, a

6 burgundy-coloured Argenta, both the son and the father, and I heard that

7 they were killed.

8 Q. Now, were they taken with this Lija together or were they taken

9 separately?

10 A. Separately. Lija took them separately.

11 Q. And these two men, this father and son, did you know them from

12 before the war, before this day?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know if they've ever been seen since that day?

15 A. Never.

16 Q. Now, from this place that you've just been talking about, were you

17 and the other Muslim men then taken to a different location?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What place were you taken to?

20 (redacted) us

21 there, when they brought us all to that place, then they took us out there

22 towards Balinovica.

23 Q. How long did you stay in Balinovac and what happened to you and

24 the others while you were there?

25 A. Well, we stayed for a longer period of time, because we -- they

Page 1101

1 did not know where to take us, to the faculty or to the Heliodrom. They

2 were waiting for an order.

3 Q. And these soldiers that were with you, were they members of any

4 particular unit that you can identify?

5 A. I did not understand this. Which soldiers are you asking me

6 about?

7 Q. The soldiers who were with you at Balinovac, the ones who were

8 trying to decide where to take you?

9 A. You mean those who belonged to the HVO?

10 Q. Yes, yes, okay, if that's your answer, they were HVO?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. And at some point, then, were you and the others taken from this

13 place Balinovac, to a different location?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. During the time at Balinovac, how were you and the others treated

16 by these soldiers?

17 A. Well, they simply ordered us to sit on the sidewalk and to keep

18 our heads down. Their soldiers passed there, HVO soldiers, as well as the

19 population at large. They were spitting at us, and then others were

20 riding by in motorbikes. There were different kinds of mistreatments.

21 Q. And then from this place at Balinovac, where were you and the

22 others taken to?

23 A. Well, around 11.00 a small mini-bus arrived, and they put us into

24 it and drove us to the Heliodrom.

25 Q. Was there any mistreatment in this mini-bus on the way to the

Page 1102

1 Heliodrom?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you describe that for me briefly?

4 A. Well, they made us sing, "It is day break. Here are Jure and

5 Boban," and then they made us put our hands up like this. And they were

6 probably frightened. They didn't seem to be normal. It was as if they

7 had been doped or something. It is not normal for a normal person to

8 behave that way.

9 Q. Now, when you arrived -- well, I don't want to put words in your

10 mouth. Where then were you taken to, if you haven't already said?

11 A. That night when we arrived, around midnight, around 2400 hours,

12 they put us into prison, the central prison.

13 Q. And was this at the Heliodrom complex?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And then were you and the others placed under the guard of a

16 different group of soldiers, and if you know who those soldiers were or

17 what group they belonged to, please tell us?

18 A. They were different, but I wouldn't know which groups they

19 belonged to because as we were driven in the mini-bus, the lights were off

20 in there and it was dark.

21 Q. These soldiers who received you at the Heliodrom and who then were

22 guarding you at the Heliodrom, do you know what unit they belonged to?

23 A. Well, different units.

24 Q. Now, Witness F, your first two or three days at the Heliodrom,

25 were you given sufficient food and water?

Page 1103

1 A. We did not get any at all.

2 Q. Now, after your arrival at the Heliodrom, were you and other

3 prisoners taken out to perform labour on various locations in the Mostar

4 area?

5 A. Well, first the SIS people took us from the HVO, and we made these

6 statements of ours somehow. And this took place over the next two or

7 three days, and then labour ensued.

8 Q. From this point, which is the 1st of July, 1993, how long were you

9 kept at the Heliodrom until your eventual release or exchange?

10 A. Almost nine months.

11 Q. And during this nine-month period, can you give us a general idea

12 how often you were taken out of the Heliodrom to perform labour at these

13 various locations?

14 A. Quite a number of times.

15 Q. Was it, can you say, once a week or four times a week, or can you

16 just give us an idea how many days per week generally did you and the

17 others work?

18 A. Several times.

19 Q. While you were at the Heliodrom or while you were being

20 transported to and from the Heliodrom, was there any mistreatment of you

21 and the other prisoners there?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you describe how you were mistreated and how often this

24 mistreatment occurred?

25 A. They didn't choose the means. They mistreated us in every

Page 1104

1 possible way. They didn't choose the means.

2 Q. Now, Witness F, I want to show you a photograph which has been

3 premarked as Exhibit 14.5.

4 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Fourmy, the usher is not in the courtroom. Is

5 it acceptable if our -- perhaps the registrar could assist.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stringer.

7 MR. STRINGER: I would ask that the photograph be placed on the

8 ELMO, if it's possible. I don't know if ...

9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I don't know whether that is

10 technically possible. Yes? Yes? It is on the ELMO. It's on the screen

11 now.

12 MR. STRINGER: We don't have the entire image shown on the ELMO,

13 if the -- Mr. Fourmy, I think I could probably do this myself quickly,

14 unless -- no. No, that's better. That's good. Okay. That's fine, thank

15 you.

16 Is it possible to slide the ELMO a little closer to the witness?

17 I'm going to ask him to point, to use the pointer. Okay, thank you.

18 Q. Now, Witness F, you've been given a pointer. I want to ask you a

19 couple of questions first before I ask you to point at anything. Witness

20 F, can you hear me?

21 A. I can.

22 Q. Okay. Now, you've been talking about forced labour. I want to

23 ask you if you recognise this location that's shown on photograph exhibit

24 number 14.5 and if you recall working in this area at any time during

25 your, your days at the Heliodrom?

Page 1105

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. For those of us who don't know Mostar as well as you, can you

3 generally point -- I want to ask you first to point to along what's called

4 the Bulevar, if you can tell. Show us the location of the Bulevar on this

5 photograph.

6 A. It is this road here.

7 Q. Okay. And when we talk about the front line between the HVO and

8 the Armija in Mostar, is it fair to say that the front line was along this

9 Bulevar?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. Now, there is a pink building that is on the Bulevar.

12 Well, first let me ask you this: Can you show us just generally, what is

13 the west side of the Bulevar?

14 A. This area here.

15 Q. Is that the Croat or the HVO side?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And then the other side of the Bulevar, then, was held by the

18 Armija; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. Now, I wanted to ask you about a pink building that is

21 located right there on the Bulevar. Can you point to that pink building,

22 if you see it, the health centre?

23 A. I don't know whether you mean the health centre. There are

24 several pink buildings here, so I'm not quite sure what you mean.

25 Q. I apologise, yes. Do you see the health centre, there; and if so,

Page 1106

1 can you point to it?

2 A. Yes. This is the building.

3 Q. Now, I want to ask you, as -- did you work as a prisoner in this

4 area that we're looking at?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And this area of the health centre, can you tell us if you know

7 whether it fell within the area of responsibility of anyone in particular

8 within the HVO?

9 A. Yes. Stela's men held it. Liska, the health centre, and further

10 down.

11 Q. Now you say "Stela." Do you know the family name of this person

12 you refer to as Stela?

13 A. Vinko Martinovic.

14 Q. Thank you, Witness F.

15 Now, are you able to identify on this photograph, sir, the

16 location in which you were working?

17 A. This is the health centre, then this way towards this street,

18 Liska, behind this big building to the left, and along the whole line

19 there.

20 Q. I want to direct your attention to what you just called the big

21 building on the left. Can you point to that again, please?

22 A. This one.

23 Q. Yes. I want to ask you, do you recall specifically working in and

24 around that building on one occasion?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1107

1 Q. Can you tell us, please, what you were instructed to do?

2 A. When we were brought there, we were working, we were loading sacks

3 of sand, and we were loading them, loading sand into sacks, and then they

4 were later on positioned along the line. However, while we were doing

5 that work, we were ordered to enter this building here that I have just

6 shown, and a truck was waiting there and we simply had to loot the

7 apartments and load the stuff on to a truck and their soldiers would drive

8 those trucks away.

9 Q. Witness F, do you know which unit you were working for on that day

10 that you were told to loot those houses?

11 A. Stela's soldiers were there, and for whose benefit I was looting,

12 I can't say, whether it was for Stela or for someone else. Whether they

13 were doing it for themselves, I don't know. I just recognised one of them

14 who was a commander, a subordinate of Stela's and his surname was Lubak

15 [phoen].

16 Q. Can you state again the name of the person that you just mentioned

17 and perhaps spell it for us?

18 A. Zubak, Z-u-b-a-k, Zubak.

19 Q. Zubak or Zubac?

20 A. C, C at the end, I'm sorry, Zubac.

21 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Fourmy, I've probably got another ten to 15

22 minutes of direct left. I'm in your hands in terms of whether you want to

23 break now or continue. I think 10.30 is the normal time, am I wrong?

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We usually make the break at a

25 quarter to 11.00, so you have another 11 minutes left. I hope that will

Page 1108

1 be sufficient.

2 MR. STRINGER: I'll do my best. Thank you. Mr. Fourmy, could I

3 ask -- we could withdraw this photograph and I have another photograph to

4 put on the ELMO or ask to be put on the ELMO for the witness. It's

5 Exhibit 14.19.

6 I apologise, Mr. Fourmy. I failed to ask the witness to circle

7 the building on the last photograph in which he testified about the

8 looting, and I think for the record it's appropriate to do that.

9 Q. Witness F, directing your attention again back to the building you

10 just testified about looting, yes, can I ask you to take the marker --

11 A. That is the building.

12 Q. -- and just to put a circle around that building? Yes, okay.

13 And -- I think that will be sufficient.

14 MR. STRINGER: We will number that as a new exhibit, Mr. Fourmy.

15 Thank you.

16 Q. Now, Witness F, let me ask you to now look at the next photograph,

17 I want to you look at -- and it might be the technical people could focus

18 in just a little more closely on the centre. It might assist us in

19 seeing. Yes. On that area. Okay.

20 Witness F, I want to ask you generally, can you recognise the

21 location that's shown in this photograph?

22 A. That is the area of Santic Street, and the broader area around it.

23 Q. Just so that we can have an idea of the orientation, I'll ask you

24 a question or two. Is this another area of the front line in West Mostar

25 that you talked about already?

Page 1109












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Page 1110

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us roughly how many metres or kilometres are between

3 this location we see and the location of the health centre that was on the

4 last photograph?

5 A. Well, it's not far.

6 Q. And then again, just so we can be oriented, on the very bottom of

7 the photograph we see a river. Is that the Neretva river?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And buildings in the centre of the photograph, which appear to be

10 destroyed or quite-well destroyed, do those indicate the position of the

11 front line?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And again taking the pointer, if you could just show us generally,

14 as best you can, the location of the confrontation line between the HVO

15 and the Armija as shown in this photograph?

16 A. When you go along Santic Street from the bridge, Carinski Most

17 bridge on the upper side of it, then the HVO units covered this whole area

18 up to Celovina, the prison, this prison here. And just below Celovina was

19 the separation line between HVO units and the BH army.

20 Q. So is it fair to say that the separation line was quite narrow

21 between the two sides?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And again for the record, the HVO side of the separation line,

24 being the area from the line you've just indicated toward the top of the

25 photograph?

Page 1111

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And the Armija side of the confrontation line would run from the

3 line you indicated then down to the river; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. Now, I don't want you to say the date at this time. I'll

6 ask you for the date at the end of your testimony. Were you taken to work

7 on this location one time?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And can you tell us -- let me ask you a couple of questions about

10 what you were doing. First of all, were you with a group of other

11 prisoners who had been brought to this location by the -- from the

12 Heliodrom on this day?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. And just for the record, were you working for Vinko

15 Martinovic's unit that day or was it a different unit, as far as you

16 knew?

17 A. I can't say exactly who I was working for, because I don't know.

18 I don't know.

19 Q. Very good. Now, can you describe for us what you were doing

20 throughout that day and indicate on the map -- or on the photograph, where

21 you were working?

22 A. We were working up here, above the post office.

23 Q. And what were you doing above the post office?

24 A. We were loading sand into bags and carrying them along this narrow

25 path leading from the post office towards the prison, and then on towards

Page 1112

1 the line with the army. What I'm trying to say is that we were forced to

2 move the front lines ourselves, because this material was in short supply,

3 we filled those bags and our order was to move the front line forward. If

4 we got the order to move the front line 20 or 50 metres forward we had to

5 do it.

6 Q. And when you say moving the front line forward, do you mean

7 forward in the direction of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you point for us the location where you were trying to move

10 the front line to? Where were you putting these sandbags?

11 A. That is here, in Santic Street, between this first and second

12 building, because sandbags were already there. They hid behind them, and

13 they carried out operations against the BH army. Then we received orders

14 to move those sandbags and carry them towards the BH army so that the line

15 would move forward 15 or 20 metres.

16 Q. While this was taking place, was there gunfire being exchanged

17 between the HVO and the Armija?

18 A. While we were carrying the bags, the HVO soldiers would cover us.

19 They would open fire towards the BH army units so as to enable us to carry

20 those sandbags.

21 Q. And then did the Armija fire back on the HVO positions in

22 response?

23 A. When they were forced to, of course they did. When they were

24 threatened, they would open fire.

25 Q. Now, the HVO, where were they positioned? Were they positioned in

Page 1113

1 a place in which they could ensure that you were doing what you were told

2 to do?

3 A. I didn't quite hear your question.

4 Q. Were any HVO deployed in the prison?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what were they doing in the prison?

7 A. They had snipers, and we were working. What their assignment was,

8 I don't know, but most probably if somebody was to disobey and refuse to

9 carry out orders, of course they would do something. There were a large

10 number of casualties in Santic Street.

11 Q. Who were the casualties?

12 A. You mean on the 13th of August specifically, or ...

13 Q. Just generally. Were HVO soldiers casualties? Were the Muslim

14 prisoners casualties?

15 A. The Muslim prisoners.

16 Q. Thank you, Witness F. Now, in that evening, did you and other

17 prisoners stop to take your dinner?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And what were you given to eat?

20 A. They gave us a beef can, one tin to two prisoners, because we

21 hadn't eaten all that day. They hadn't given us anything.

22 Q. Can you indicate on the map the place where you and the other

23 prisoners ate your tin of beef?

24 A. It was here, this row of houses, so in between the buildings.

25 Whether it was between the first and the second or the second and third,

Page 1114

1 I'm not sure, but anyway, in between the buildings. We sat down because

2 we had been working until about 20.30, and when darkness started to fall

3 we sat down. Maybe it was 8.30. They gave us this tin, and we started to

4 eat.

5 Q. And while you were eating then, was the group hit by a shell or a

6 grenade of some kind?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And were some of the prisoners killed?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What happened to you?

11 A. I was wounded, too.

12 Q. And as a result of your -- were you wounded with shrapnel from the

13 grenade or the shell?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And as a result of the wounding then, were you taken out, and you

16 spent a month in the hospital being treated for these wounds you received

17 at that time?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then after this month at the hospital, were you returned to

20 the Heliodrom?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And after your return to the Heliodrom, did you continue to be

23 taken out on -- for forced labour until sometime before your release in

24 1994?

25 A. Yes. And let me emphasise, I hadn't fully recovered, and two

Page 1115

1 days, two or three days after my return I was sent out to do forced labour

2 again. And the doctor who treated me said that I should receive house

3 treatment, and I can show you the documents which are in my possession

4 that the doctor recommended I should be treated at home. What kind of

5 treatment is that when my family had been expelled and all that? I was

6 taken immediately to the Heliodrom instead of that.

7 Q. Okay. Thank you, Witness F. Now, one last thing, I'm going to

8 ask you if you could take the red marker again. I'm going to ask you to

9 mark some of the places on the photograph, and then we'll be completed

10 with your direct examination. Could I ask you to place a number "1" on

11 the building you identified as the prison.

12 I'm sorry, let me take that back. Could I ask you to place a

13 number "1" on the building that you identified as the post office.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. And then a number "2" on the building that you identified as the

16 prison where the HVO snipers were.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. And then a number "3" on the location in which you and the others

19 were hit by the shell.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Thank you, Witness F.

22 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Fourmy, I have no further questions. I

23 apologise for running a couple of minutes over the break time.

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor. I suggest

25 that we have the break straightaway, and we will resume work at 20 past

Page 1116

1 11.00. The hearing is adjourned.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.52 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.22 a.m.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed. Please be

5 seated. Mr. Usher, could you bring the witness, please?

6 Mr. Krsnik, Mr. Seric, which one of the two of you will start with

7 the cross-examination of this witness? Mr. Krsnik then.

8 Witness F, we are going to continue with your deposition, and now

9 it will be the Defence who will be asking you questions.

10 Mr. Krsnik, your witness.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. I would like to introduce myself I'm Kresimir Krsnik, I'm Defence

16 counsel for the accused Mladen Naletilic. I shall be putting questions to

17 you. So please concentrate and please let me ask you that we both wait

18 for the interpretation to end to make things easier. It will be easier

19 for the interpreters. You will be able to hear me properly that way.

20 I shall try to put brief and clear questions to you, and try to

21 give me straightforward answers, without too many comments, unless my

22 question specifically asks for a comment.

23 How many statements have you made so far and to who?

24 A. I have no idea what you're talking about.

25 THE REGISTRAR: May I remind counsel, please, to turn off the

Page 1117

1 microphone after you ask the question? Thank you.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'll try. Now I'll have

3 to think about that as well.

4 Q. Did you give a statement to anyone, apart from the OTP? When I

5 say "OTP," that is what we call our learned friends from the Prosecution.

6 A. I gave them statements, of course.

7 Q. Did you give a statement to the Centre of Security Services, the

8 crime prevention police sector, Mostar?

9 A. Of course I did. It was my duty to report that.

10 Q. And did you give a statement to the Centre of Security Services,

11 the State Security Centre in Mostar?

12 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that. I know that I was called in

13 several times, and then these statements, I mean, I don't know who did I

14 give statements to? They came and they called me and I felt it was

15 necessary, of course. When I got out of the camp, I reported all this.

16 And now, who I gave these statements to, I haven't the faintest idea.

17 Q. I already asked you not to go beyond the scope of my question so

18 that we can move faster. All of this is in the domain of your comments

19 and I didn't ask you about this at all.

20 A. Well, I don't know; that's what I'm trying to tell you. I don't

21 know.

22 Q. This is a statement from the 21st of January 1996. It was given

23 in Mostar to an authority that is called the state security, or rather the

24 AID. Did you give your statement and did you give that statement and sign

25 it or not?

Page 1118

1 A. I don't know who came, and I don't know who I gave statements to.

2 At any rate, there were several of them who came and told me to come in.

3 I don't know whether it was the AID or the crime prevention service. I

4 don't know, I mean, they wouldn't tell me anything like, "I'm from the

5 AID," "I'm from the crime prevention police." I have no idea. I was just

6 called to come in and I gave statements, went in. However, if my

7 signature is there, of course it's me. Of course I gave a statement to

8 the AID, then.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I'm going to ask the

10 usher for his assistance just to show the witness this signature. I'm

11 only interested in the signature, nothing else.

12 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Fourmy, excuse me, could I just take a brief

13 look at the document before -- so that I can see which one we're talking

14 about? It hasn't really been identified, and I'd just like to see what's

15 being shown to the witness.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I meant to explain this. I just

17 wanted him to see the signature. So I wanted to tell my learned friend,

18 of course, which document this was. Just let him identify the signature,

19 and of course I'm going to explain which document this is. At this point

20 in time, I have not even tendered it yet. At this moment, that is.

21 MR. STRINGER: Thank you.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Krsnik. The

23 Prosecutor has looked at the document. Now it can be shown to the

24 witness. Thank you.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

Page 1119

1 Q. Have you had a look?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that your signature?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Could the usher please bring this

7 back to me.

8 Mr. Stringer, we have identified the signature, haven't we? The

9 document is called "The Record," and it is dated the (redacted)

10 (redacted). The sector of state security -- I'm sorry, first of all it says

11 "Security Services Centre," and underneath it says "State Security

12 Sector, Mostar." And the number it bears is, their number that is,

13 (redacted).

14 MR. STRINGER: For the record, I think (redacted).

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Possibly. If we think that this is a

16 dash in between, a hyphen. Well, yes, I can accept that. I can accept

17 what my colleague Mr. Stringer has said.

18 Q. Have you remembered now? Giving this statement, that is.

19 A. Possibly I did because my signature is there, of course.

20 Q. That's not what I asked you, sir. Do you remember giving this

21 statement? Do you personally remember giving this statement, although

22 you've seen this statement when I showed it to you?

23 A. Well, I do remember.

24 Q. Tell me something else: From these events onwards, that is to say

25 from 1993, I mean three years went by from 1993 to 1996, has your memory

Page 1120












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Page 1121

1 faded?

2 A. I don't think so. I kept this diary when I got out of camp. I

3 thought it was necessary to register everything on paper.

4 Q. So when you gave this statement, you remembered everything that

5 you knew, and you talked about it of your own free will?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you remember when you gave a statement to the OTP?

8 A. I don't know these dates when I gave this statement. Quite

9 simply, when they asked me to come, I came, of course, and gave a

10 statement.

11 Q. I'm not asking you that. I'm not asking you to remember

12 specifically. Is it possible that you made this statement in 1997?

13 A. Well, possibly.

14 Q. Was the quality of your memory better then as compared to 1997?

15 A. No.

16 Q. No, it was not better?

17 A. No, it was not worse. I mean, when I made my statements, because,

18 of course, those details, I mean the details they were interested in, they

19 processed all of that. So in part, in 1996 they dealt with what they were

20 interested in, and then in 1997 they were interested in something else,

21 but I somehow recorded all of this on paper. It's sort of like a diary.

22 It's there to remind me. I don't see why it would be better or worse,

23 actually. I don't see why it would be worse.

24 Q. This document that we're speaking about from Mostar --

25 A. Yes.

Page 1122

1 Q. -- did you give the whole truth there?

2 A. That's for sure.

3 Q. Everything you said? I mean, I think I've already asked you

4 that. Everything you knew?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I'll go back to these statements a bit later. I have to guard

7 your identity, so I shall be careful with my questions and you try to be

8 careful with your answers, because we're in public session and you don't

9 want to reveal your identity; right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Where did you live in Mostar before the conflict with the army of

12 Republika Srpska, the Serbs? I don't know what we're going to call them.

13 Are we going to call them the Serbs so that we understand what we mean?

14 The Serbs?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Perhaps it would be better for this

17 part of your cross-examination to be conducted in private session because

18 in view of the questions and the answers of the witness, that would be

19 better, and then we can go back into public session after that. I don't

20 know. It's up to you. I don't quite know the scope of your questions.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I shall certainly not jeopardise his

22 identity at all.

23 Q. So we have agreed to call this the conflict with the Serbs?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The aggression of the Serbs?

Page 1123

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Which part of Mostar did you live in?

3 A. I can't tell you in which part I lived in, in the eastern part of

4 Mostar.

5 Q. That's what I mean, east or west. I'm not interested in the

6 rest. Did you have an apartment of your own?

7 A. I had a house of my own, my parents' house.

8 Q. After the conflict, when the conflict with the Serbs ended, or

9 before that, did you move anywhere?

10 A. Yes. I moved because my house was destroyed 100 per cent.

11 Q. Did you move to western Mostar?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What about your family?

14 A. Yes, together with me.

15 Q. Where did you move to in West Mostar? I mean, did you move into

16 an apartment or a house?

17 A. An apartment.

18 Q. What about your family?

19 A. They were with me.

20 Q. Are you referring to my parents -- are you referring to your

21 parents?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. And sisters and brothers, if you had any?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. You all lived together?

Page 1124

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Whose apartment was this?

3 A. A Serb apartment.

4 Q. Did you get some kind of ownership right over this apartment, or

5 for the sake of our learned friends -- or did you perhaps get a tenant's

6 right? Let me try to explain this. Until 1990 in the territory of the

7 former Yugoslavia, under the communist regime, workers, employees, got

8 so-called tenants' rights. This had nothing to do with ownership, in

9 terms of law as you know it.

10 My question is the following: Did you buy that apartment?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you get a tenant's right?

13 A. When I was transferred to the 4th Company -- when I was

14 transferred to the 4th Battalion, I got a paper from them that had to do

15 with the apartment that I was using. That was a requirement, when I

16 was -- when I was moved to the 4th Battalion, that is.

17 Q. So can we conclude that you simply got permission to live there

18 temporarily?

19 A. Yes, yes, you're right.

20 Q. And who helped you? Who made this possible for you? It was the

21 4th Battalion; right?

22 A. Well, specifically Mladen Misic, yes.

23 Q. Mladen Misic?

24 A. Mladen Misic, Major.

25 Q. When we speak about specific events that HVO soldiers came to your

Page 1125

1 building, are you referring to this apartment?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. You said that when soldiers came to the building, and you stated

4 that today, that they distinguished between those who were eligible and

5 those who were not?

6 A. Yes, yes. That is how I put it.

7 Q. Now I'm going to ask you who are the eligible ones.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] This is really difficult for me. I

9 do apologise. For Mr. Stringer, it's perhaps -- I mean, maybe he was more

10 focused. I mean, this really makes me lose my concentration. I follow

11 the questions and answers and I truly forget. I really forget. It's not

12 intentional. I simply forget to turn off my microphone. I do apologise.

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor?

14 MR. STRINGER: I share your view, Mr. Krsnik. It is difficult to

15 remember to turn off the microphone, but it's necessary in order to ensure

16 that the identity of the witness remains protected. That's my

17 understanding, anyway, of the need to do that, for this particular

18 witness. We are all here working under an equality of arms. I've had to

19 suffer through, and may I suggest that my learned colleague will find his

20 way also.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I've tried. Even my colleague tried

22 to assist me, but, again, it's pretty difficult. Well, then I suggest

23 that we move into private session, the whole examination, because this is

24 really hard. Yesterday, I didn't have to turn off my microphone and,

25 again, it was a protected witness. All right. This is voice distortion.

Page 1126

1 I'm sorry. Mr. Stringer, my learned friend, if it's all right with you, I

2 would like to move into private session.

3 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer?

4 MR. STRINGER: We will accept whatever is your decision on this

5 question. I think the Prosecutor's view is that the protective measures

6 that are in place are those necessary to enable the public to follow the

7 testimony, which is an important consideration, while at the same time

8 protecting the identity of the witness. We found a way to do it with

9 voice distortion in addition to the other measures. If I may say, I think

10 that it's easier for me, as a non-native B/C/S speaker, to actually follow

11 a cross-examination that is -- that Mr. Krsnik's cross-examination,

12 because there is sort of a -- imposes the obligation to pause between

13 question and answer, which is something that we have had difficulty with

14 with the other witnesses. So if I may say so, I think our position is

15 that we can and should continue in the public session with the protective

16 measures that are already in place.

17 I apologise to Mr. Krsnik for disagreeing with you on that, but I

18 think that that is our position.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] All right. I'm going to go along.

20 I'm going to accept your position, but I think that my cross-examination

21 today with this witness is going to take quite a while.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Not at all, Mr. Krsnik, not at all.

23 I'm quite sure that you will manage fine. And we are going to ask for the

24 assistance of the witness. I think, Witness F, that it is important for

25 you to wait a little between the question and your answer. This will give

Page 1127

1 Mr. Krsnik a chance to switch off his microphone and vice versa,

2 Mr. Krsnik, after the answer of the witness, you have to switch it on

3 again, and that will give us a little pause. Can we work like that,

4 Mr. Krsnik? Thank you and please continue.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I would like to

6 ask the witness something.

7 Q. Please concentrate and help me to take you through this as fast

8 as -- and as efficiently as possible. Try to give the shortest possible

9 answers to my questions. If there is something missing, I'm going to put

10 another question to you. Is that all right?

11 After the conflict with the Serbs, a lot of Bosniaks came. If you

12 agree, that's what I'm going to call these people from now on. Do you

13 understand that to mean the Muslims?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did a lot of Bosniaks come to western Mostar?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, it won't work like that.

18 Mr. Krsnik, at least for you and me, it's something new to use this

19 button, and Mr. Stringer has a slight advantage over us.

20 Witness F, please, Witness F, can you hear me?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Wait, please, briefly between the end

23 of the question and your reply. That will give Mr. Krsnik a chance to

24 switch off his microphone. It's up to you. If not, we can refrain from

25 voice distortion, but this was a measure that you requested. You asked

Page 1128

1 for these protective measures.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're quite right.

3 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. So let us try. I have

4 managed, so I'm sure you will manage, too. Thank you.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Can you tell us, if you know, approximately how many people,

7 Bosniaks, were assisted by the Croats in western Mostar in terms of giving

8 them accommodation, houses, apartments, and basic living. I'm referring

9 to food, as well.

10 A. First of all, I would not agree when you said "Croats." Croats.

11 It was Croats who gave it, but I would not agree with you that if it was a

12 Serb apartment, that Croats gave it. How can a Croat dispose of a Serb

13 apartment? I can't put those two together. But that they helped, you're

14 right on that. They did. But there were quite a few Serb apartments in

15 the western part of town.

16 Q. Who disposed with the apartments in Mostar, and who had authority

17 over apartments in western Mostar. To be specific?

18 A. All of that was under control, of course, because of course when

19 the Serbs were expelled, when they left, of course it was the HVO that had

20 the western part of town under their control, and they disposed with all

21 of this.

22 Q. So my previous question was correct?

23 A. Yes, but it was not their property. Yes, temporarily, yes, I

24 agree with temporary, because these apartments were abandoned and then

25 they took them over. However, since a Serb -- if a Serb apartment is a

Page 1129

1 Serb apartment, I mean, that's the current thing, isn't it? If it was a

2 Serb apartment, then a Serb can come back to that apartment, and a Croat

3 would have nothing to do with that apartment.

4 Q. I am really going to ask you to make this painstaking job that

5 we're all doing easier. Please give me brief answers to my questions. I

6 shall lead you through these questions.

7 A. I just meant --

8 Q. Make it easier for me. When you start giving all these comments

9 that have nothing to do with my question, I cannot interrupt you.

10 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. Fourmy. I apologise for

11 interrupting Mr. Krsnik, but I want the record -- I think the record

12 should reflect that the witness is responding very clearly to the

13 questions that are coming from counsel. Counsel is not apparently getting

14 the answers he wants, but I think the answers are clear and reasonably

15 succinct. So I disagree with counsel's mode of criticising the answers

16 he's receiving from the witness. Thank you.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My learned friend Mr. Fourmy, my

18 learned friend Mr. Stringer, I did not criticise the answers at all. I am

19 very satisfied - I'm saying this for the transcript and for you - with the

20 answers of this witness. I just wanted him to help me with this

21 microphone thing, that we have to turn the microphones off.

22 I asked you yesterday, and I'm saying this again, please do not

23 comment on my questions while a witness is in the courtroom, the quality

24 of my questions, the quality of the answers.

25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

Page 1130

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] And you will understand --

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Mr. Krsnik. Excuse

3 me, I thought you had finished your answer to the Prosecutor. Am I wrong?

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, I have finished, yes.

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Perhaps to assist you in your rhythm

6 of answering the questions, you have a screen in front of you with the

7 transcript, and you will see when the typing of the question is over.

8 Only then should you proceed to give your answer. I think that would give

9 Mr. Krsnik time to switch off his microphone. Do we understand one

10 another?

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, when you say Serb apartment, as you said just now, does

13 that mean that a Bosnian, a Bosniak of Serb ethnicity is the owner of such

14 an apartment; or the proprietor of a tenancy right; or is the owner the

15 Serb state; or, on the other hand, the town of Mostar; or the company that

16 gave this person the said apartment, that is to say, is such an apartment

17 socially owned?

18 A. He is only the proprietor of the tenancy right.

19 Q. Can we conclude that somebody else is the owner?

20 A. Well, he uses the apartment because he starts buying it, too, not

21 somebody else.

22 Q. People started buying their tenancy rights only after 1995. Do

23 you agree with that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Yes?

Page 1131












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Page 1132

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. When you joined the HVO, did you take an oath?

3 A. No, I didn't. It was only a question of my word.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness answer

5 please answer only after the question is put.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] It is absolutely essential that you

7 have to be careful. I know it is very difficult, but Mr. Stringer did

8 this, too. You must have your hand close to the microphone and switch off

9 every time you finish your question. I know that this is difficult to get

10 used to, but Mr. Seric will assist you, I hope. Thank you, thank you.

11 Please continue.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I've just asked my colleague to

13 switch it off as soon as the witness starts speaking. I think that will

14 be the best way.

15 Q. If I heard you correctly, you said that it was your word that was

16 equal to an oath or something to that effect. Will you repeat for me?

17 A. Yes, you're right.

18 Q. Will you tell me what kind of an oath is equal to a word?

19 A. Well, very simply, I agreed with Mladen Misic, because we knew

20 each other anyway, we knew one another well, and until then, as our common

21 enemy was the Serbo-Chetnik armada, it didn't matter whether I was in the

22 army or in the HVO, and we simply made an arrangement and I switched over

23 to the 4th Battalion.

24 Q. You are not answering my question. Please listen carefully to

25 what I'm asking. I asked you whether you took an oath.

Page 1133

1 A. I said no. I was quite clear about it.

2 Q. A moment ago, you said you did take an oath by giving your word.

3 A. No, no. I made an arrangement with him. I gave him my word. We

4 got together, I asked him to be transferred, and he received me. You

5 misunderstood me, that's all.

6 Q. I'm satisfied with your answer now. Can we then say that you did

7 not take an oath of allegiance to the HVO?

8 A. I did not.

9 Q. What kind of uniform were you issued?

10 A. A camouflage uniform. It was a camouflage uniform.

11 Q. And what weapon?

12 A. A srpkinja.

13 Q. We are not experts. Will you explain what a srpkinja is?

14 A. It's an automatic rifle.

15 Q. An automatic rifle? Did members of the 4th Battalion, and that

16 means you too, as you were a member of the 4th Battalion, did they wear

17 black uniforms?

18 A. I personally did not. Some individuals did.

19 Q. Who, in your opinion, liberated Mostar from the Serbs?

20 A. In my opinion, it was a joint operation. We conducted it -- them

21 jointly, starting from Hum to Podvelezje where the 4th Battalion was. So

22 it was together.

23 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear counsel, I'm sorry.

24 A. I said together, the army and the HBO.

25 Q. The BH army existed in those days -- I beg your pardon, did the BH

Page 1134

1 army exist then?

2 A. As of April.

3 Q. To what extent was it a joint operation? How many units were

4 there of the HVO and how many of the BH army?

5 A. I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to tell you that. I just don't know

6 that.

7 Q. Were there more HVO or more BH army?

8 A. I really don't know. I don't have those figures on me. I don't

9 know.

10 Q. You said today that on the eve of the 9th of May, that is two

11 weeks prior to that date, you selected your positions. That is, you made

12 a choice whether you would go to the line with the Serbs or the line with

13 the army?

14 A. Yes, precisely so.

15 Q. Which position towards the Serbs did you take up together with the

16 4th Battalion?

17 A. I held the tower, the peak, towards Karadjordjevo, and the 4th

18 Battalion was with us for a time.

19 Q. I didn't quite understand your answer.

20 A. Guberaca.

21 Q. Just a moment, please. Please wait for me to finish.

22 A. Yes, I will.

23 Q. Look at my hand, please. Thank you. Where was that position?

24 A. To the south, when you go towards Gnojnice and above Gnojnice up

25 on the hills.

Page 1135

1 Q. Which hills?

2 A. When you reach Carski Vinogradi, and then you go up towards the

3 tower, Kula, up there. I don't know how to explain. I don't know the

4 actual names of the places. I don't know how to explain it to you.

5 Towards Kocine, there was a hamlet of Kocine, and from there you go on up

6 along a narrow path that had been broken through, and then you reach Kula

7 up there.

8 Q. That was where the front line was, against the army of Republika

9 Srpska or the Serbs?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is it right to say that this was two weeks prior to the 9th of

12 May, the location you have just described? Is that final?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How many members of the 4th Battalion held that line?

15 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly. There were about four to

16 a bunker and there were five or six bunkers, maybe some 20, about 25 to 30

17 men on the outside.

18 Q. Do you remember the name of the commander of the 4th Battalion who

19 took you to that location?

20 A. Are you talking about the major or the company commander?

21 Q. My question was very clear, the commander of that position, from

22 the 4th Battalion?

23 A. Yes, I do remember.

24 Q. Give us his name, please.

25 A. Walter Spehar.

Page 1136

1 Q. I did ask you a question, but we didn't get the answer because of

2 these difficulties we are having. Your answer regarding the people who

3 were suitable or eligible, who were those people who were considered

4 suitable?

5 A. Those who were misled by the Muslim people and who joined those

6 authorities. They were people who they had managed to win over.

7 Q. When you say "they," you mean the HVO or the HVO as an authority?

8 A. Yes, as an authority starting from the HDZ and the HVO. How do I

9 know? The people they managed to win over in one way or another, they

10 were considered by them to be suitable.

11 Q. So those who remained, who were coexisting with the Croats, you

12 consider them to have been misled and you consider them to be traitors?

13 A. No, not traitors, but in a way, in a way. Maybe out of fear or

14 they were given promises of some sort. Simply, they switched over to

15 them.

16 Q. How many companies did the 4th Battalion consist of?

17 A. Three companies.

18 Q. You said today that the HVO suffered a fiasco at Bijelo Polje?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When did that fiasco occur?

21 A. On the 30th of June.

22 Q. What exactly happened at Bijelo Polje?

23 A. The army regained those positions. Bijelo Polje fell. Until

24 then, it had been under the control of the HVO.

25 Q. If I understand you correctly, the BH army attacked the HVO at

Page 1137

1 Bijelo Polje.

2 A. Yes. Well, yes.

3 Q. Where were the prisoners, the HVO prisoners from Bijelo Polje

4 taken to?

5 A. (redacted)

6 (redacted)?

7 Q. Did the HVO and the BH army, were they together in Bijelo Polje in

8 a common trench against the Serbs?

9 A. Yes, for a time they were, until the conflicts erupted. Up to the

10 time of the conflict they were together, yes.

11 Q. Why, then, did the BH army attack them?

12 A. What do you mean, why they attacked them?

13 Q. I'll come back to that later. You said you knew a person called

14 Bobo Vucic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You know him (redacted)?

17 A. Yes, so-so. I had occasion to (redacted).

18 Q. Wasn't he a member of the 4th Battalion?

19 A. Yes, he was at first for a time, and then he went over to Tuta.

20 Q. Who told you that?

21 A. I learned that from him.

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1138

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Witness.

6 Mr. Fourmy, I apologise again for the interruption. Could I

7 request that this particular part of the testimony be redacted from the

8 record, and perhaps if counsel wishes to pursue it, we could go into

9 private session?

10 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. Stringer.

11 Mr. Krsnik, private session?

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, it's not necessary. It's only

13 because the witness is not answering my questions. He is giving

14 additional comments and remarks. And I'm sure that from this, it is not

15 possible to infer which family he's referring to. Allow me to finish,

16 please.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Continue, please.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I have in front of me several

19 different statements, and of course I will start showing them to him, and

20 that is why I'm asking how he came to learn about the mentioned person.

21 MR. STRINGER: No. I don't mean to suggest that it's an improper

22 question, it's simply that the response from the witness would tend to

23 indicate or to reveal his identity, in my opinion. That's my only

24 concern.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Stringer. You see,

Page 1139

1 I'm very careful about that all the time, and I even cautioned the witness

2 before starting my cross-examination.

3 A. I can give you two answers to that question.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Let us try and be more concise.

6 A. When we were taken into detention, one of the soldiers -- when we

7 were taken to Lija, one of the soldiers called him by name, "Lija, what

8 are we going to do with them?" So that could be one answer.

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted) they talked about him. And she said, " (redacted)

13 (redacted)And

14 they had a quarrel over that. But also I know because one of the soldiers

15 called him by name and said (redacted) what are we going to do with them?"

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I am prevented from

17 conducting a proper cross-examination. I am sure you have noticed. I

18 have rephrased my questions. They're not leading. I am trying to ask

19 direct questions as much as I can because -- simply because of this

20 technical problem, I wanted to put brief questions and receive brief

21 answers, as one should in a cross-examination. But I'm simply unable to

22 do that because I'm not allowed to interrupt the witness.

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] No, no, no. Please continue,

24 Mr. Krsnik. The witness is just trying to clarify a point.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

Page 1140

1 Q. Did I understand you correctly, you yourself came to that

2 conclusion?

3 A. No. I did not link those things up together myself. His own

4 soldiers named him.

5 Q. Today, in answer to a question from my learned friend, you said,

6 loud and clear, as if you knew him personally.

7 A. Perhaps that was your impression, but I said exactly to what

8 extent I knew him.

9 Q. So you didn't know him personally but you identified him on the

10 basis of the story you have just told us?

11 A. Thank you, yes, thank you.

12 Q. You said that you had to sing songs. "Dawn is Breaking," "Evo

13 Zore, Evo Dana". Is that insulting, in your opinion?

14 A. Those are Ustasha songs. Of course they are insulting.

15 Q. I got the answer I wanted. Those were Ustasha songs. You need

16 not add anything. I will go on with my questions. In what way is that

17 song insulting for the Muslims?

18 A. If one knows what Boban did in those areas, and he is not

19 remembered by anything good but only by things evil, then of course it is

20 insulting for the Muslims.

21 Q. You are talking about Boban from the Second World War to whom this

22 song is dedicated?

23 A. I'm talking about this Boban.

24 Q. But that song was coined during the Second World War in the

25 struggle against the Serbs, when the Muslims and Croats were together and

Page 1141

1 they were in equal numbers. Do you know that?

2 A. I don't know, but I think it referred to this one because they

3 kept insisting that we had to sing this song, and your guns to the ready.

4 Q. I didn't ask you anything about the guns. I asked you about the

5 song.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, please. I apologise, but

7 you are putting a question to the witness regarding a specific event which

8 the witness experienced. Naturally, you can only expect the witness to

9 tell you what he experienced. That may go beyond what you expected, and

10 don't keep picking on the witness, because -- on the answers, because we

11 are repeating the same questions and repeating the answers, and we are

12 wasting a lot of time, unless my accounts are wrong. So please continue.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I didn't repeat a

14 question. I just wanted to clarify what song it was. Nor was I talking

15 about the concrete event. Nor did I ask the witness anything about the

16 event. I just wanted to identify the song.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, but clearly, the song didn't

18 fall from the sky. It was part of an event which the witness lived

19 through, and it is quite legitimate that he should give you an answer

20 containing that experience of his.

21 I'm speaking too fast obviously. I apologise.

22 He is telling us the information he has, and we have to respect

23 the witness up to a certain point. We can't interrupt the witness just

24 like that when he's giving us a spontaneous answer which is directly

25 related to the question. And once again, please don't draw conclusions.

Page 1142












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Page 1143

1 Continue with your cross-examination, which has a very clear line. So

2 please do continue.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I beg your pardon, and I

4 thank you for your effort and your attention, but I have to give you a

5 short explanation. That song, in the context in which the witness is

6 referring to it, is a form of mistreatment, and that is why I wanted to

7 explain which song it was, because the song was coined 60 years ago during

8 the Second World War. And you may or may not know, but during that war,

9 the Croats and Muslims fought together, and they sang that song together,

10 and so it is part of the history of their people as well. I felt it to be

11 my duty to explain to you why I put this question to the witness. And I'm

12 further discovering, through the witnesses and the cross, various things

13 happening. But there you are. I'm sure that not a single other witness

14 will be mentioning this same song, Jure and Boban.

15 Mr. Fourmy, it is 12.30. We know it is time for the break. Maybe

16 we should have a break and I shall try and be as brief as possible after

17 the break. I think we all need a rest.

18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] How much more time do you need to

19 finish your cross-examination?

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] As yesterday, another half hour.

21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] No, Mr. Krsnik, but I'm sorry, that

22 is not acceptable. I think from the beginning of the week, I asked that

23 we watched that, to make sure that the cross-examination should correspond

24 to the time of the direct examination. It is not something I have

25 invented. It is regular practice, in any event, before the Chamber which

Page 1144

1 is at present in charge of this case. And if I understood correctly the

2 deposition of Witness F, I assumed that Mr. Seric will have some questions

3 to put to the witness. We have three witnesses planned for today. I see

4 that Mr. Seric is nodding. We have three witnesses for today. We haven't

5 even completed the deposition of one witness this morning. We are in a

6 big delay, and I think that is not the good functioning of depositions. I

7 understand, Mr. Krsnik, that there are technical difficulties involved,

8 which are not your fault, but I do appeal to you to make every effort to

9 speed up the proceedings. If you wish to take advantage of the break to

10 focus your cross-examination, I will be grateful to you, and we will meet

11 again here at 2.00 p.m. And you will have a maximum of 15 minutes.

12 Thank you. The hearing is adjourned until 2.00 p.m..

13 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.













Page 1145

1 --- On resuming at 2.00 p.m.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. The hearing is

3 resumed. Please be seated.

4 Mr. Usher, could we have the witness brought in, please.

5 Witness F, I hope you were able to have a little rest. Mr. Krsnik

6 is going to continue with his cross-examination for another 15 minutes

7 roughly. After that, it will be Mr. Seric. I ask you once again to take

8 care -- I know it is difficult because spontaneously one wants to answer

9 immediately, but wait for counsel to switch off his microphone before

10 answering. Thank you.

11 Mr. Krsnik, your witness.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. And may I ask

13 straightaway that we move into private session very briefly because I'm

14 going to put two questions that could perhaps reveal the witness's

15 identity.

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, please, Madam Registrar.

17 [Private session]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 1146

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [Open session]

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, please, Madam Registrar.

25 Witness F, excuse me for bothering you again with this problem. I

Page 1147

1 know that one's immediate reaction is to answer as quickly as possible,

2 but for reasons of voice distortion, it is absolutely necessary for you to

3 wait a little, especially as we are now in public session. That is not

4 the only reason. But if you answer too quickly, this overlaps with what

5 counsel is saying and it is very difficult to interpret. Thank you very

6 much.

7 Mr. Krsnik please.


9 Q. [Interpretation] At this collection point, the HVO soldiers wore

10 black uniforms?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And they had some kind of insignia?

13 A. I didn't notice. However, they were armed to the teeth.

14 Q. Were these the same people from the 4th Battalion who wore black

15 uniforms?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were there any members of the 4th Battalion there?

18 A. No, no. I did not notice any.

19 Q. Jusuf, Juka, Prazina, what is his ethnicity?

20 A. He is a Muslim.

21 Q. What kind of uniforms did members of his unit wear?

22 A. They were in camouflage uniforms.

23 Q. In the statement you gave to the OTP, you said that you found out

24 that men in black uniforms with black hats were Juka's men; is that

25 correct?

Page 1148

1 A. No, that is not correct.

2 Q. Did they wear any masks?

3 A. You mean protective masks? What are you referring to?

4 Q. Things that cover your face, you know?

5 A. No.

6 Q. These people took you from Balinovac to the Heliodrom; is that

7 right?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. The mentioned Lija had a black uniform?

10 A. He was wearing camouflage.

11 Q. What time of the day was it?

12 A. It was in the evening, around 2000 hours perhaps 8.30.

13 Q. You entered the 4th Battalion only to get an apartment?

14 A. Well, yes.

15 Q. When was the BH army established?

16 A. I think on the 15th of April.

17 Q. Year?

18 A. 1992.

19 Q. When did Bobo tell you that he went over to Tuta's?

20 A. He didn't tell me when. He just said that he belonged to Tuta's

21 units, because he was already in a unit of Tuta's but he didn't tell me

22 when he transferred there.

23 Q. Just a minute, please. Final question: In which month and of

24 which year did you conduct this conversation with the mentioned Bobo?

25 A. It was before being taken away. Now, was it 15 days before or a

Page 1149

1 month before? I can't say.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, witness. I give the floor

3 now to my learned friend. Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Krsnik. You

5 were, indeed, efficient.

6 Mr. Seric, you have the floor for your cross-examination. I know

7 that you will watch the microphone because you have had some practice by

8 now.

9 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Seric:

11 Q. [Interpretation] I am Branko Seric, attorney at law, one of the

12 Defence counsel for Vinko Martinovic.

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I would kindly ask the

14 registrar to show the witness, through the usher, this exhibit,

15 Prosecutor's Exhibit 14.5. It has already been tendered. It is this

16 photograph, 14.5. I would like to show this to the witness straight away,

17 and I think that we're all going to save time this way, and I think we all

18 have copies as well.

19 Q. Do you remember -- and you showed us the health centre a few

20 minutes ago. Can you tell us when you were brought before the health

21 centre?

22 A. The health centre is this here. I can't remember the date when I

23 was brought there. I don't know.

24 Q. You stated that you had been wounded on the 13th of August, 1993.

25 Wait.

Page 1150

1 Was this before the wounding or after the wounding?

2 A. Before the wounding.

3 Q. Was this once or several times?

4 A. Several times.

5 Q. How many times?

6 A. I don't know. Perhaps two, three, four times.

7 Q. This is the period from the 1st of July until the 13th of August.

8 Does the year -- does your answer mean that throughout that period, you

9 were brought in front of the health centre three or four times?

10 A. Not only by the health centre. To the Aleksic houses as well

11 along another street because this is also where I worked, and also to the

12 Liska park.

13 Q. I'm asking you very nicely to answer my question. I'm just asking

14 you about the health centre now.

15 A. Well, the health centre, once.

16 Q. I'm sorry, I had trouble hearing you. Don't say a word now. Let

17 me just check the transcript to see whether the transcript says that you

18 came to the health centre only once.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At what time of day were you brought there to the health centre?

21 A. I don't know what the date was. I just know that it was before

22 the wounding.

23 Q. I'm asking you very nicely. Please be patient. Please listen to

24 the question, understand it, and then answer. Now wait for me to repeat

25 the question.

Page 1151

1 At which time of day were you brought to the health centre?

2 A. It was in the morning.

3 Q. Were you brought to the health centre directly from the Heliodrom?

4 A. We were brought to Rondo, and then from the Rondo we took this

5 street over here. We walked down that street, and we came to the health

6 centre.

7 Q. Could you please show it over there on the photograph.

8 A. This street here from the Rondo, and then down here to the health

9 centre.

10 Q. How did you get to the Rondo, and how did you go from the Rondo to

11 the health centre?

12 A. In a column.

13 Q. Which kind of vehicles did you have?

14 A. It was trucks, military trucks.

15 Q. Would you please be so kind as to speak up because I can't hear

16 you because of my headphones.

17 A. Military trucks.

18 Q. Does that mean that trucks brought you to the Rondo and to the

19 health centre?

20 A. No, no. Not to the health centre.

21 Q. Oh, come on, please. Tell us.

22 A. To the Rondo, not to the health centre.

23 Q. I'm going to repeat a question now which is going to contain part

24 of your answer. Please don't interrupt me. Can we agree that you were

25 brought to the Rondo in military trucks, and then you walked in a column

Page 1152

1 on foot from Rondo to the health centre?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How many of you were brought to the health centre?

4 A. I can't give you the exact figure. Perhaps it was about 15 of

5 them.

6 Q. Can you give us the name and surname of at least one person who

7 was with you on that occasion?

8 A. I did not know the others.

9 Q. I'm sorry, I did not hear what you had to say.

10 A. I didn't know the others who were with me.

11 Q. Can you tell me who came to get you, to pick you up, from the

12 Heliodrom that morning?

13 A. I can't say that. I don't know.

14 Q. Can you remember the description of the person who came to pick

15 you up with this truck on that morning?

16 A. I could not remember.

17 Q. Are you sure you were driven to the health centre that morning?

18 A. I did not even say that I was driven to the health centre. I said

19 I was driven to Rondo.

20 Q. Who escorted you from Rondo to the health centre?

21 A. We walked in a column, one by one, from the Rondo, and that's what

22 we were told, that we were supposed to go and work near the health centre,

23 and that there were some soldiers there already, and there was a group

24 that had already been working there.

25 Q. Did you go unescorted?

Page 1153












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1154

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did that mean that you could have gone in some other direction?

3 A. No. That could not -- that does not mean that.

4 Q. Could you please wait? Who met you by the health centre?

5 A. HVO soldiers.

6 Q. Can you give us at least one name and surname of one of these HVO

7 soldiers?

8 A. I can't remember a single one because I didn't know them.

9 Q. Can you describe at least one HVO soldier who was present there

10 then?

11 A. I cannot.

12 Q. On that occasion, by the health centre, did you see Vinko

13 Martinovic, nicknamed Stela?

14 A. No, I did not.

15 Q. Thank you. Please look at the photograph again, and tell us, if

16 you know, what was the zone of responsibility of the unit that was

17 commanded by Vinko Martinovic nicknamed Stela?

18 A. I can't do it with certainty, but as I was coming to work there, I

19 claim that it was down there, the former medical school, the Aleksic

20 houses, Liska, the park, and the health centre down there.

21 Q. Could you please show us this zone of the Aleksic houses?

22 A. Over here, I can't -- I can't, at least not on this photograph,

23 because it's further down south, and I can't see on this photograph.

24 Q. Look at the photograph more carefully. Don't say a word. Do not

25 make any comments. Look at these houses that were destroyed across the

Page 1155

1 street from the health centre, and also even further down west from where

2 you carried furniture. Is it possible that that is the area concerned,

3 the area that you call the Aleksic houses?

4 A. I don't know. I'm not sure, because the picture somehow is not

5 very clear and I can't really see right.

6 Q. Do you know that the zone of responsibility of Vinko Martinovic's

7 unit ended at Liska?

8 A. No, no, I don't know about that, but I did come to work in this

9 zone of responsibility, but I am not aware of this.

10 Q. Do you allow for the possibility -- look at the photograph once

11 again. Try to take it in your hand, the photograph. Perhaps it will be

12 easier for you to see it there than on the screen. Do you allow for the

13 possibility that the zone of responsibility of the unit of Vinko

14 Martinovic ended at Liska Street?

15 A. It could not have been at Liska Street, because if the zone of

16 responsibility was the health centre as well, then it could not have ended

17 at Liska Street.

18 Q. Why not, if this is exactly where the intersection is?

19 A. Well, there is roads that are separated there, so Liska Street is

20 on one side of the road and the Dom Zdravlja, the health centre, is on the

21 other side of the road. So then if it ended at Liska Street and if the

22 health centre is on the other side, then it couldn't be possible.

23 Q. Excuse me, but it depends which point we are looking from. Please

24 let me finish. I see that you want to speak again. If we look from the

25 direction of centre of town, then this part of the street, of the

Page 1156

1 boulevard, ends with Liska Street. However, if we view this from the

2 south, from the entrance into the town of Mostar, then what you're saying

3 is quite clear.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. However, you have to admit that Liska Street does separate certain

6 houses from one another.

7 A. Separate.

8 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you said.

9 A. It does separate some houses because the road separates Liska

10 Street from over here, from the health centre.

11 Q. I'm repeating my question. Do you allow for the possibility that

12 it was precisely this street that was a boundary between the unit of Vinko

13 Martinovic and that of some other unit?

14 A. I don't know. I can't say that.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please slow down.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Seric, I'm sorry for interrupting

18 you. Please excuse me, but I find it difficult to identify the Liska

19 Street and the other things you are referring to on the photograph. I

20 know that there are other photographs among the Prosecution documents.

21 Maybe that would be helpful. But personally, I'm a little lost regarding

22 this question, which is important for you, regarding the area of

23 responsibility in relation to the health centre and the Liska Street. For

24 a future reader, I wish to caution you it is not very clear. Thank you.

25 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] You're quite right, Mr. Fourmy. It is

Page 1157

1 precisely because the witness unclearly pointed to this street.

2 Q. So please, Mr. F -- could the usher place the photograph under the

3 ELMO once again, and could you please point to the street the two of us

4 are talking about.

5 A. This used to be where the JNA were stationed before, and this is

6 this street. I was very clear.

7 Q. Which is the street, this broad street, going from the

8 intersection towards the Rondo?

9 A. I don't know what you mean, what it is, which one is it. That

10 also is the Liska Street.

11 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, we didn't get a translation on counsel's

12 last statement, although I would note that whatever was said was

13 interrupting whatever the witness was trying to say.

14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I am really trying very hard to be

15 very concise in my questions in order to receive the briefest possible

16 answers and to concentrate on microphone management, questioning of the

17 witness, and getting proper answers, and I never interrupted the witness,

18 and I think that your remark was inappropriate.

19 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Seric, excuse me, but I don't

20 think anyone reproached you for any interruption. It is simply that the

21 witness is explaining something regarding a street, a particular street,

22 and I still am unable clearly to identify it. You said this small street

23 behind a building which was -- where there was plundering before or

24 looting, and then you had this discussion about the Rondo, and again, we

25 don't see the Rondo on this photograph. So I heard you say thank you.

Page 1158

1 If Liska Street has a bend -- you know the area better than I do,

2 but the Judges are not familiar with the area. So could you please assist

3 us by continuing with your equally precise questions to identify the exact

4 place you are talking about.

5 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] We can do it in a more concise and in

6 a less concise way, so let's try the latter.

7 Q. Mr. Witness, let's go back to the photograph and please tell us,

8 this broad street close to the health centre - not the small one that you

9 showed us - what is the name of that street?

10 A. Liska. I know it as the Liska Street. Up there is the Liska

11 park, and that is the Liska Street. That's how we, all of us, called it,

12 that's all.

13 Q. Could you please point to it on the photograph.

14 A. Yes. It is this one.

15 Q. Very well, thank you.

16 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Is anything more needed,

17 Mr. Prosecutor, regarding the identification of this road? Please say so

18 if you think more is needed, more clarification.

19 MR. STRINGER: I don't think I'm the one to judge, but -- so I

20 really don't have a comment on that.

21 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon? I wasn't asking

22 for any commentary, I was just going to ask you to confirm that there is

23 no dispute over what the witness has shown because there was an

24 intervention on your part a moment ago.

25 MR. STRINGER: No, you're absolutely right, Mr. Seric, and I think

Page 1159

1 that certainly we can agree which is the Bulevar, which is Liska Street.

2 But whether Mr. Fourmy or the Judges are able to know the difference

3 between those two, I'm not, I'm not sure, but certainly there's no

4 disagreement from our side as to which is Liska and which is the Bulevar,

5 yes.

6 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. That means I can

7 proceed.

8 Q. Mr. Witness, you recognised a person whom you named when you were

9 carrying out the furniture from this house, and you said that his name was

10 Z-u-b-a-c?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you remember the physical appearance of that person?

13 A. Well, roughly. He was over 1 metre 90 tall, he was a strongly

14 built young man.

15 Q. Did he wear a mustache?

16 A. I think that he did not at the time.

17 Q. He didn't then but otherwise?

18 A. I don't know. But when I was working there, he wasn't wearing a

19 mustache.

20 Q. Was he fat, heavy?

21 A. He wasn't fat, but he was so-so. He was big, a tall, strong man.

22 Q. Could his name have been Mario Zubac?

23 A. I'm afraid I can't confirm that, I'm not sure, but I know that his

24 surname was Zubac.

25 Q. Do you know with certainty which unit this Zubac belonged to?

Page 1160

1 A. No. I don't.

2 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, I have no further

3 questions.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank, very much, Mr. Seric. And

5 thank you for watching the microphone so well.

6 Mr. Prosecutor, have you any additional questions for this

7 witness?

8 MR. STRINGER: Just a brief number of questions, Mr. Fourmy, I

9 think perhaps five minutes' worth.

10 Re-examined by Mr. Stringer:

11 Q. Witness F, I first want to follow up on a couple of things that

12 you discussed with Mr. Krsnik, the counsel for Mr. Naletilic, during the

13 first part of your cross-examination. He discussed with you a number of

14 statements which you gave, either to the Office of the Prosecutor or to

15 the Bosnian government or the security office people in Mostar. Do you

16 recall talking about those statements?

17 A. I remember those statements, but of course, I don't remember the

18 dates.

19 Q. Now, when you gave those statements, were you trying to tell the

20 complete truth?

21 A. The truth and nothing but the truth.

22 Q. Each time you met with any investigator, did they ask questions

23 about particular things, and if so, did the topics they asked you about,

24 did they change and were they different at the various times that you met

25 with the investigators?

Page 1161

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You were asked about the distinction that was made on the 9th of

3 May between the suitable Muslims, if you will, and the unsuitable ones,

4 the suitable ones being those who were allowed to stay in their flats on

5 the 9th of May. Do you recall that testimony?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And I take it that because you had the HVO identification card,

8 you were one of the suitable Muslims on the 9th of May?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How long did the HVO authorities permit you and the other suitable

11 Muslims to remain in their flats in West Mostar?

12 A. Until the 30th of June, and then we were en masse chased out.

13 Q. Were there any suitable Muslims after the 30th of June?

14 A. Yes, but very few.

15 Q. You were asked about the songs, the Ustasha songs, that you were

16 forced to sing, and Mr. Krsnik asked you about a Croatian politician from

17 World War II called Boban. Do you recall that testimony?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. On the 1st of July 1993, were you aware of any other Croat

20 politicians of note who were also named Boban?

21 A. Yes, I had heard of him.

22 Q. Does the name Mate Boban mean anything to you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And was he the President of the Croatian Community of

25 Herceg-Bosna?

Page 1162

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And was the HVO a part of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You testified that you were in the Heliodrom for approximately

5 nine months and that you were taken out to work in various places during

6 that period of time. Do you recall that testimony?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you allowed to choose the other prisoners that you would work

9 with on those occasions?

10 A. I don't understand your question. What kind of choice could I

11 make?

12 Q. Did you have any ability to make this choice or was the choice

13 made for you, in terms of the others whom you would work with?

14 A. Others came, these people who were in charge, and depending upon

15 the location, they would come and select people by pointing their finger

16 saying, "You, you, you and you go to work."

17 Q. So did you know -- were you familiar with all the prisoners that

18 you worked with on all these occasions?

19 A. No. I didn't know all of them. Maybe a few of those who were

20 detained where I was.

21 Q. Do you recall who transported you out of the Heliodrom on each

22 occasion when you were taken for forced labour?

23 A. I don't remember on each occasion, but sometimes I could perhaps

24 say who it was.

25 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Witness F.

Page 1163

1 Mr. Fourmy, I have no further questions.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor.

3 Witness F, your deposition is over. Thank you very much for being

4 kind enough to come and testify in this Tribunal and for having answered

5 all the questions put to you. You will now be able to withdraw, and I

6 wish you a safe journey to your country of residence.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, for the next witness

11 I think there has been no request for protection measures, specific

12 protection measures. Is that still the case, please?

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Mr. Fourmy, today I have been told --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, microphone.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: -- that the witness who is called to testify

16 today requests some protection measures such as face image distortion and

17 pseudonym, and he explained why he requested such protective measures.

18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: The witness who is called to testify today is

20 about to return to the west part of Mostar, and he claims that he wouldn't

21 be safe in that part of the city now because of the situation which exists

22 now in that part of Bosnia-Herzegovina, precisely, in Mostar.

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor. Have you

24 discussed this request of the witness with the Defence?

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I haven't discussed this question with the

Page 1164












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13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1165

1 Defence.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Defence, please, have

3 you any observation or comments to make? Mr. Krsnik.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. We have

5 neither remarks nor comments to make. Thank you.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Seric.

7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] By nodding my head I confirm that I

8 agreed.

9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I think somebody I know very well

10 often speaks about non-verbal communication which is frequently more

11 effective and certainly more evident than the verbal communication.

12 So, Mr. Usher, will you have the witness brought in, please.

13 Mr. Prosecutor, the witness, then, will appear with facial

14 distortion.

15 I thank the technical booth for doing what is necessary.

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: And a pseudonym, I suggest.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Fourmy, microphone, sorry.

18 Microphone, Mr. Fourmy, microphone.

19 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, could you give us

20 the pseudonym for the next witness, please.

21 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym for this witness will be Witness G.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Can you hear me?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

Page 1166

1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] You asked for protection measures,

2 and these measures have been granted for you, so you are going to benefit

3 from facial distortion, that is, your face will be distorted on the

4 screen, and also a pseudonym. The pseudonym will be Witness G. So please

5 don't be offended, that is the only way I can address you. We will be

6 addressing you as Witness G.

7 The usher is going to give you a document with the solemn

8 declaration on it. Will you please read it for us.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness G. Please be kind

14 enough and take a seat.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Try to make yourself as comfortable

17 as possible. I think both microphones have to be switched on. The usher

18 is going to give you a piece of paper with your name on it. Don't read it

19 out. Just tell us whether that is, indeed, your name.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. The procedure is as

22 follows: The Prosecutor will have questions for you, after which it will

23 be the turn of the Defence counsel. There are two Defence counsels. I

24 still don't know whether only one or both of them will have questions for

25 you. And then if he so wishes, the Prosecutor may have some additional

Page 1167

1 questions for you.

2 Before we begin, I should like to insist that we do everything

3 possible for the deposition of this witness to be completed by the end of

4 the day, and I thank all counsel of the Prosecution and of the Defence to

5 do everything they can to achieve that.

6 Mr. Prosecutor, your witness.

7 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Mr. Fourmy, I will do my best just to meet your

8 request.

9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

11 Q. Witness G, just a couple of questions relevant to your background.

12 You are a Bosniak Muslim, correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you have lived most of your life in Mostar?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In which part of the city did you live before the war?

17 A. Before the war, in the eastern part as a subtenant, and since

18 1985, in the western part of the town.

19 Q. Where do you live now?

20 A. Just now, I'm living in the eastern part of the town, as a

21 displaced person.

22 Q. Okay. Mr. G, had you ever been arrested during the war?

23 A. Which war?

24 Q. I mean the war of 1993.

25 A. (redacted).

Page 1168

1 Q. Okay. But were you arrested for the second time as well?

2 A. (redacted).

3 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let's go straight to your first arrest. So you

4 told us that you were arrested (redacted). What was happening on

5 (redacted)

6 A. (redacted)

7 artillery fire coming from the western side towards the eastern side, and

8 this woke me up.

9 Q. Did you go out during the day or not?

10 A. I didn't go out but I just went out on the balcony of my apartment

11 to see what was happening, and I saw the shooting from behind my back, and

12 in the distance, at the opposite end, I could see smoke and shell

13 explosions.

14 Q. How long did this shooting last?

15 A. The shooting lasted all day, of varying intensity.

16 Q. At what time were you arrested?

17 A. Sometime in the afternoon, about 5.00 p.m.

18 Q. Do you remember how it happened?

19 A. Yes, I do. Shall I tell you?

20 Q. Yes, yes, yes, please.

21 A. I was in my apartment. As it faces towards the east, I saw five

22 or six soldiers coming down the road, and shouting, "People go into your

23 houses." The people did. But shortly after that, they reached my house,

24 they entered my apartment. It is a house with 18 --

25 Q. One moment, one moment. Did you see the uniform of those soldiers

Page 1169

1 who were just in the street at that time?

2 A. They were in uniform, camouflage, military camouflage uniforms,

3 with weapons in their hands. They were Kalashnikov rifles.

4 Q. Do you know from which war factions were they?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Okay. You may go on with the circumstances of your arrest.

7 A. Three soldiers came to my apartment. One of them took my ID at my

8 table where I was having coffee, and the other two went into the bedroom

9 and the other rooms to check. This soldier said to me, "Sir, you have to

10 go to the mechanical engineering faculty." And together with a group of

11 people who were already in front of their houses, and that is what I did.

12 I did what I was told, and I headed towards the mechanical engineering

13 faculty.

14 Q. One moment, don't hurry, please. But did these soldiers explain

15 to you why you had to go to the mechanical faculty?

16 A. They simply said that we had to go there for interrogation and for

17 security, for our own security.

18 Q. Did you see those soldiers before?

19 A. No. I did not know them.

20 Q. Were they from HVO or from military police?

21 A. They were HVO members.

22 Q. Why do you think so?

23 A. Because the police wore white belts, and that was the difference.

24 This was something that I could notice immediately, and these did not wear

25 white belts, and that is why I assume that they were.

Page 1170

1 Q. But did they wear any HVO patches, insignia and so on?

2 A. They probably did. However, out of fear, I never took note of any

3 details for me to be able to assert with certainty what insignia they

4 were.

5 Q. But what was your perception? Did these soldiers know your name,

6 your nationality, before they came to your flat?

7 A. I assumed that they had exact information as to who was a Muslim.

8 Q. Why do you think so?

9 A. Because before the conflict broke out, (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 Q. But did those or some other soldiers enter other flats, in the

15 building you lived?

16 A. They didn't enter Croatian flats.

17 Q. Did they allow to take your medicines, clothes, food with you?

18 A. They didn't give us any instructions, but they allowed me to get

19 dressed. I was wearing a summer uniform, and they let me put on my

20 trousers and go out normally. I didn't ask them about medicines or food

21 because they said it would take two or three hours.

22 Q. Did they escorted you to the medical faculty?

23 A. No. This soldier, when we had gathered in front of the building,

24 this soldier said, "Go straight to the mechanical engineer faculty. You

25 will have no escort, and don't try to flee." And that is how it was.

Page 1171

1 Q. I'm sorry, I made an error in my question by saying medical

2 faculty. It was mechanical faculty. I'm awfully sorry.

3 How many people headed to the faculty along with you?

4 A. When we had all gathered at the end of the road, there were 14 of

5 us.

6 Q. And who met you at the faculty?

7 A. In front of the faculty there was a guard. He was waiting for us,

8 and he asked us to show him our IDs. I gave him mine, which was invalid.

9 It had be issued by the HVO. I was unable to get a new one which would be

10 valid. I told them I had no other. He collected those documents, and he

11 escorted us inside to the faculty.

12 Q. And who met you inside of the faculty?

13 A. In an office this gentleman was sitting there. I heard from his

14 colleagues that his name was Mate Anicic, somebody I didn't know. He

15 collected those documents, and after brief consultations, he ordered one

16 of the guards to form a group of us and to take us to the Velez stadium.

17 Q. But did they explain to you why you had been taken to the faculty?

18 A. No explanation was given to us.

19 Q. By the way, could you explain what you mean by mechanical faculty?

20 It may be not clear to the Judges.

21 A. In peacetime before the conflict, this was called the Dzemal

22 Bijedic University, and this university engaged in scientific research

23 work, and this was the department for mechanical engineering. These

24 were -- machines were there, lathes and other mechanical processing of

25 metals, and metal tools were tested there. And then as part of that

Page 1172

1 university there were studies of mechanical engineering, and this was the

2 building.

3 Q. And during the war, for what purposes was this building used?

4 A. During the war, the police station was stationed there. The third

5 police station was headquartered there, and even a little before the war.

6 During peacetime, documents were issued there, and the citizens would

7 address this station for various needs that they had, administrative

8 needs.

9 Q. Now, you just mentioned the name -- sorry, Mate Anicic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you know him before?

12 A. No.

13 Q. But do you associate his name with some military unit or, at

14 least, did you associate it at the time?

15 A. No. For me, that was the police station. That's what I

16 considered it to be, a police station. As for the exact ambit of work of

17 this police station, I don't know in this police sense or military sense.

18 I'm not very well versed in these matters.

19 Q. All right. And when you were taken to the stadium, did you see

20 other people at the stadium?

21 A. At the stadium at that moment, there wasn't anyone except for the

22 14 of us who had come and also the guard who brought us there. There

23 wasn't anybody else at the stadium.

24 Q. At what time approximately you were taken there?

25 A. Around 6.30, 7.00 in the evening, something like that.

Page 1173

1 Q. But did you know that there were some people gathered at the

2 stadium before?

3 A. At that time we didn't know. Not then. We found out later.

4 Q. When? When did you get to know that? I mean --

5 A. Oh, later. In discussions when we were at the Heliodrom, then

6 people told us that in the morning during the day they were at the Velez

7 stadium. And since we were sealed off when I was at my apartment, we had

8 no information as to what was going on.

9 Q. You told us that there were 14 people taken to the stadium. Were

10 all of them Muslims?

11 A. Yes, all Muslims.

12 Q. How long did you stay in the stadium?

13 A. At the stadium, around two hours. Until it started getting dark.

14 I think it was about until 9.00. It was summertime. For about two

15 hours. We were sitting on the grass.

16 Q. Did anyone join you, I mean the group of people at the stadium?

17 A. Yes, yes. One soldier brought a female person. Later on it

18 turned out that the guard who was there said to us, "You are here because

19 of her," and it turned out that this was Zijo Orucevic's sister. The

20 sister of a certain Zijo Orucevic.

21 Q. All right. At what time were you taken to the faculty again?

22 A. At 9.00. He received an order to take us to the faculty again, to

23 the same door where we were registered in the first place.

24 Q. And what happened then?

25 A. Then they brought us in there. According to Mate Anicic's

Page 1174

1 recommendation, he said, "Separate room, downstairs," that we should all

2 be separated. And that's the way it was, in a small room, 3 by 2 metres,

3 a dark room. That's where we were put up.

4 Q. Okay. There is one sketch attached to your witness statement

5 given in March 1998.

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. It was premarked as Exhibit number 59. I would like usher to show

8 it to the witness.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Is it the same sketch you did, you made in March 1998?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I suggest that there is no need to place it on the ELMO because it

13 is not redacted, and there is a name of the witness on it. But all people

14 present here can read it without any difficulties. It's not a very

15 complicated map of Mostar, or a photo. Just could you explain what you

16 mean by these figures, 1, 2, 3?

17 A. Well, that's just the location of the room concerned. We were in

18 number 1, 14 of us. Then in number 2, when we came back, there was a

19 group of people there, different people. Number 3, that was a room

20 probably for persuasion, for torture, because cries and screams of pain

21 were heard from there. And the WC is not really a toilet; it was just a

22 room without a door, and when there was no one there, then we simply

23 relieved ourselves there. We had no choice. Next to this is a staircase

24 that goes to the building.

25 Q. Okay. But did they bring in more people to Room 1 in the evening

Page 1175












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1176

1 or during the night?

2 A. During the night, actually, I forgot, 14 of us, and that girl who

3 joined us subsequently was there too, and then yet another girl was also

4 brought into Room 1.

5 Q. And did you stay, I mean this mixed mass of people, in the room

6 until morning?

7 A. Yes, yes. We were there all the time, or rather --

8 Q. Did they give you any food, water?

9 A. No.

10 Q. How many nights did you spend in the basement?

11 A. Two nights.

12 Q. Can you associate any incidents that happened in the basement

13 during these two nights with your stay in there?

14 A. Yes. Commotion and cries and screams were heard from Room 2. It

15 seemed that there were shrill voices and also lower voices, so we

16 concluded that there were women there and children. And that's when we

17 got in, actually. However, during the night, around 10.00 or 11.00, steps

18 were heard in the hallway, and screams and cries were heard from Room 3,

19 and wailing. That lasted until 12.00 or 1.00 perhaps. Then they went out

20 of there and several soldiers were heard in the hall. However, two or

21 three soldiers came to our door and they asked for the wire to be taken

22 off our door so that they could see who was there and what was going on.

23 And he -- and they got in and said, "Now, let me see what -- who is in

24 there." Mr. Mate Anicic was with them. There was quite a bit of

25 commotion at the door. A soldier managed to hit two men on the head with

Page 1177

1 a rifle butt, with a pistol, rather. These were not major blows. There

2 were just small cuts, bruises. Then Mate said to them, "Guys, you have

3 nothing to look for here. They are civilians. They do not fall under

4 military law." So they obeyed him and left.

5 Q. Did you know from which unit those soldiers were?

6 A. Yes. I mean, I didn't know. They declared themselves, they said,

7 "We are the Tuticis. Let's see who is in here in this dark room?" They

8 said that. That is what they declared. That is what they said. "We are

9 the Tuticis."

10 Q. And what happened on the following night?

11 A. The next night, again, 10.00 or 11.00 in the evening, lots of

12 commotion, many footsteps in the hallway, let me tell you that. And then

13 in Room 3 there were already people who were moaning and screaming from

14 pain. I don't know how many of them were there, but it seems to me that

15 there were women's voices there as well. However, when the main door

16 would be open and when the lock would be taken off, that meant that

17 somebody was coming in. A larger group came in, they got in, there were

18 some more moans and then two or three short bursts of gunfire were heard,

19 like muffled shots. Then everything went quiet. There was -- there

20 weren't any screams any more or pain. Then Juka Prazina appeared at our

21 door and Armin Pohara, and with him was Mate Anicic, and he was explaining

22 to them that we were civilians and we had nothing to do with the

23 military. They used torch lights to light our faces. I recognised Pohara

24 from the media because his features were familiar. I did not know Juka

25 Prazina. I wasn't the one who decided that. Those who knew him said,

Page 1178

1 "This is Juka Prazina." And Pohara just asked, "Are you loyal?" And we,

2 fearfully, said yes. He looked at us a bit more and then they left. They

3 left this area.

4 Q. All right. Now, returning to your first night, you just told us

5 about some --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- soldiers who introduced themselves, if you may say so,

8 introduced as Tutici. What did these words mean for you at that time?

9 Tutici?

10 A. Tutici, if you look at our grammar, this is a collective noun.

11 This means the army of Mr. Tuta, Mr. Naletilic nicknamed Tuta, so they

12 took this prefix for themselves. They said, "We are Tutici."

13 Q. Did you know Tuta before the war, or at least hear about this

14 person before the war or during the war?

15 A. Yes. I did hear about this before the war. I just heard this

16 phonetically. I never saw him. I never had any meetings with him.

17 Q. Do you associate this name [Realtime transcript read in error

18 "day"] with some particular military unit?

19 A. In view of what was going on, yes. He had a unit of his own under

20 his personal command. They were Tuta's army.

21 Q. When and how did you come to know that?

22 A. Well, the conflict hadn't broken out yet between the Croats and

23 the Muslims in this territory. We talked because we were there together,

24 the Croats and the Serbs and the Muslims. We were neighbours. They would

25 say, "Tuta came. He has an army of his own." So it is from these

Page 1179

1 conversations that I knew.

2 Q. All right. When were you released from the mechanical faculty?

3 A. From the mechanical faculty, on the 11th in the afternoon. The

4 11th of March [as interpreted] in the afternoon.

5 Q. In the afternoon. But did you see anything in the territory of

6 the mechanical faculty, I mean precisely in the basement, before you were

7 left?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry.

10 A. On the 11th in the morning around 4.00, 5.00, there were no

11 soldiers there, and then I went to relieve myself in that room. The door

12 was open, and I saw a stretcher and a dead man on the stretcher without

13 any blood, without any visible traces of physical mistreatment, a man who

14 was dark, even his complexion was a bit dark. He had a moustache, and he

15 weighed about 100 kilos.

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Prosecutor. I'm sorry

17 for interrupting you, but I misunderstood on the transcript on page 93:19,

18 I think it says the 11th of March here.


20 Q. Could you clarify the situation, Witness G. Which month did you

21 mean, March or May?

22 A. May, May. The 9th of May. The 9th, 10th, and 11th of May. It

23 must have been a slip of the tongue. May. There was no mention of March.

24 Q. And also just another misprint, maybe, or slip of the tongue. I

25 asked for you, did you associate the name of Tuta with any particular

Page 1180

1 unit, not the day as we have in the transcript now. 93:8, sorry.

2 Is it correct that we were talking about the name, not the day,

3 Witness G?

4 A. Yes, but I don't really understand this question yet again.

5 Q. I'm sorry, sorry. There is some error or misprint in our

6 transcript that I have noticed now. I asked you if you associated the

7 name of Tuta with some particular military unit, and then followed your

8 response. Not the day, but the name.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay.

11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor --


13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] -- perhaps a sign of fatigue. It is

14 22 minutes past three. I suggest a break of a good 20 minutes, until ten

15 to four, and then we can resume with the continuation of your

16 examination-in-chief, if you don't mind.


18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We will have a break until ten to

19 four. Thank you.

20 --- Recess taken at 3.23 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 3.47 p.m.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed. Please be

23 seated.

24 Mr. Usher, will you please fetch the witness?

25 May I note, since we have a little more time with the witness,

Page 1181

1 that everyone is starting a little bit ahead of time, which is quite

2 extraordinary and I thank you all for it.

3 Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know how much more time you need for your

4 examination-in-chief. We have in principle one hour and 11 minutes left,

5 and I would appreciate it if the Defence could complete their

6 cross-examination in that time. I don't know whether that will be

7 possible but it is certainly desirable. What do you think of it?

8 MR. PORIOUVAEV: As for me, I would like to leave my learned

9 colleagues as much time as possible, I mean, from time allowed to me.

10 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Please be seated.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We are going to resume our hearing

14 for another hour and 11 minutes with you, and you will first continue to

15 answer questions from the Prosecution. And there is somebody in the

16 public gallery, but there is no need for you to upset yourself. He is a

17 member of the staff of this Tribunal.

18 Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor, your witness.


20 Q. So on the 11th of May, you were taken to Heliodrom; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you see many people in Heliodrom when you arrived there?

24 A. Yes. There were a lot of people.

25 Q. Were they all male or there were some female, elderly people?

Page 1182

1 A. On the road from Krusevo to Heliodrom, there were elderly people

2 and women and young men in the column. When we reached the Heliodrom,

3 they separated us to the gyms. And where we were, there were only men,

4 older and younger ones. There were even two boys who were underage.

5 Q. How long did you stay in Heliodrom?

6 A. We stayed there until the 19th of May.

7 Q. But there was some sort of commission just set up for some

8 investigation. What can you tell us about this commission?

9 A. I wasn't present. I was with that commission for only five or six

10 minutes. It was formed before the 19th of May, the aim being to

11 interrogate all the prisoners so as to gradually release them. However, I

12 entered the hall facing the commission. There were eight or nine people

13 forming a U, and there was questioning. You gave your particulars. But

14 when I had reached the second person, a HVO soldier ran in and said, "Get

15 out, let us release everyone because Morillon has arrived at the

16 Heliodrom." And that is what happened. We were boarded on buses and

17 driven away so that the Heliodrom was vacated on the 19th of May.

18 Q. Do you mean a French General Morillon?

19 A. Yes. He was responsible for the region at the time. It was his

20 first visit to the Heliodrom with a team of journalists, a TV crew.

21 Q. Did you see him in the Heliodrom on the 19th of May?

22 A. I saw him on the APC as it was passing by us.

23 Q. Do you know a person by the name Jasmina Skaljic?

24 A. Yes. Jasmina Skaljic, a lady, a member of the HVO police, who was

25 employed at the mechanical engineering faculty.

Page 1183

1 Q. Did you have any talks with her?

2 A. After we arrived at the Heliodrom, she came two or three days

3 later, amongst us, and as she had somebody called a friend, a Menso Comic,

4 she spoke to him and we listened to what she was saying. And she said the

5 following: "You were lucky to have been taken here because after you left

6 the mechanical engineering faculty, there was a real suffering and killing

7 there."

8 Q. Thank you. When did you return home from the Heliodrom?

9 A. That same day, on the 19th of May, we were driven by buses from

10 the Heliodrom via Zitomislcic, Tepcici, and then back to western Mostar,

11 and we all went to our respective apartments, those that had not been

12 occupied in the meantime. I entered my apartment.

13 Q. But did you have the possibility of returning to your job after

14 being released from the Heliodrom? Where did you work before the 19th of

15 May?

16 A. (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 Q. All right. When did you move to east Mostar from west Mostar, and

24 why?

25 A. I didn't move. I was first taken to the camp. My flat had

Page 1184

1 already been occupied. I had no guarantees. I could have gone back to

2 western Mostar, but I couldn't get a certificate that I had served some

3 sort of a sentence and that I would enjoy safety there. So I, on the 29th

4 of December, I was released in Jablanica, and 20 days later, across the

5 mountains, I reached the eastern part of the town, where my daughter,

6 son-in-law, and wife were, in the eastern part of the town. And my wife,

7 who had stayed behind in the apartment after I went to the Dretelj camp,

8 she saw that all Muslim women, willy-nilly, had to leave their

9 apartments. And she asked somebody, who is now deceased, a Mladen Cerkez,

10 who knew some policemen, to transfer her to the eastern side with her

11 daughter, son-in-law, and granddaughter, and that is what they did around

12 the 20th of June. That is what I was told, that she was transferred to

13 the eastern part of the town.

14 Q. Thank you. So you've told today that the second time when you

15 were arrested was the 1st of July. Do you associate your arrest with some

16 events that happened in the Heliodrom - sorry, in Mostar - in June and

17 July 1993?

18 A. I later learnt that the northern camp fell under the control of

19 the BH army, and that was on the 30th of June. However, just then, I

20 didn't know why I was arrested, but later on I came to the conclusion that

21 this was because they had lost an important feature to the north of

22 Mostar, that is, the northern camp, and that this resulted in the repeated

23 arrest of Muslims.

24 Q. Do you remember how you were arrested?

25 A. Yes. Soldiers came again and said, "Everyone go into his house."

Page 1185

1 I was sitting in my house, sitting having coffee and cognac with the late

2 Mladen Cerkez, and a gentleman came asking for IDs. I gave him mine and

3 he said, "Sir, you get ready. The bus is waiting." It was in front of

4 the building. "Get on the bus. We have to remove you for your own

5 security." I obeyed, and I did as he told me. On that occasion, they

6 also went through Croatian apartments to make sure that there was no one

7 who was concealing Muslims in his apartment.

8 Q. Did they take many people, I mean, Muslims, from their homes on

9 that day, I mean the 1st of July?

10 A. I don't remember. I was the only Muslim in my building left

11 behind. During the first arrest, some had already gone to third countries

12 via Gasinice, and elsewhere, so that I was the only remaining Muslim in

13 that building out of the total of 18 tenants.

14 Q. Were you taken straight to Dretelj camp?

15 A. Yes. They only stopped in front of the mechanical engineering

16 faculty to get instructions, and then from there they took us directly to

17 Dretelj.

18 Q. Could you tell us briefly just about the conditions in which

19 prisoners were held in Dretelj camp?

20 A. Yes. The first three, possibly four days, everything was fine.

21 It was very hot. The hangar was made of aluminum, so it was very hot. We

22 were allowed to open two double doors, so that there was air circulation.

23 We were given two meals a day, quite decent food, only very small

24 quantities. However, an incident occurred somewhere on the battlefront.

25 Several Croatian soldiers were killed. And then there was a prohibition,

Page 1186












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13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1187

1 and for three days we had neither food nor water, as punishment.

2 Q. How long did you stay in Dretelj?

3 A. We stayed in the Dretelj camp until the 21st or the 22nd of July.

4 Q. And what happened then?

5 A. An order came from the command, I don't know which, that all the

6 people from Mostar municipality should leave Dretelj and should go to

7 Heliodrom. That was the order. However, some people stayed behind who

8 were from south of Mostar, Dubravaci and Capljina, but a day later, they

9 too were transferred to Dretelj, or rather the Heliodrom, so Dretelj was

10 completely empty.

11 Q. Do you remember approximately how many prisoners were taken from

12 Dretelj to Heliodrom on the 22nd of July 1993?

13 A. According to my estimate, there were about 400 to 450 of us in the

14 hangar, and there were another two hangars, and there was a warehouse

15 also. So in my estimate, about 2.000.

16 Q. Do you remember were there any military units deployed in

17 Heliodrom while you were staying there?

18 A. While I stayed at the Heliodrom, a unit called the Tigers was

19 stationed there. They were from Split and the guys spoke in the Dalmatian

20 dialect and who spoke to us prisoners through the bars.

21 Q. But was it a unit of Croatian army HV?

22 A. I noticed that they were Tigers, they were from Split and they had

23 a Dalmatian accent. I didn't see any insignia except Tigrovi, tigers, so

24 I didn't notice whether there was any indication as to whether they were

25 HV or HVO.

Page 1188

1 Q. Did Juka Prazina have his headquarters in Heliodrom area?

2 A. Yes, yes. He did have his headquarters about 50 or 100 metres

3 from the gymnasium. He had a staff and soldiers, and the soldiers had

4 their wives and children with them, and he had two Doberman dogs at the

5 entrance to the headquarters, and that is where Juka spent his days

6 together with his soldiers. And he visited us detainees in the gymnasium.

7 Q. All right. Do you remember what kind of uniform Juka's soldiers

8 wore?

9 A. Juka's?

10 Q. Juka's.

11 A. The normal camouflage uniform, as if they were covered in leaves,

12 grey, olive-green to brown.

13 Q. Do you remember any incidents in Heliodrom associated with Tuta's

14 soldiers?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. DRENSKI-LASAN: [Interpretation] Your Honour? Excuse me, this

17 is after all an overly leading question, and I think I need to object.

18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Will you rephrase your question,

19 Mr. Prosecutor, please?


21 Q. Do you remember any specific incidents in Heliodrom associated

22 with some soldiers?

23 A. The second night after we arrived at the Heliodrom, in the

24 evening, around 11.00 or 12.00 at night, the gate was open, which was

25 otherwise locked during the night, and some soldiers entered, looking for

Page 1189

1 somebody by the name of Nedjo. I knew the man from Heliodrom. He was a

2 big man, two metres tall, and I later learned that he was an officer in

3 the police during peace time. They took him outside in front of the door,

4 they beat him, they sent him back. He managed to escape and hide under a

5 large mattress used for gymnastics. It was 3 by 3. Then they found him

6 again, caught him by the collar, they dragged him through the hall outside

7 and beat him. They also beat his young son. He was about 18, maybe

8 less. They beat him too. Then they came back in and took out a detainee,

9 forcing him on his knees to pray, Hail Marija, threatening him, "We are

10 Tutici, we have lost a Croatian knight at Santiceva street, a Vitez," and

11 this was an incident I personally observed and saw. They left later on,

12 and peace was restored.

13 Q. Did you observe this incident at close range?

14 A. Yes. I was ten metres away from this man who was kneeling and

15 praying. He was a Muslim who had to say the Christian prayers.

16 MS. DRENSKI-LASAN: [Interpretation] I apologise, but for the

17 transcript, could everything the witness said be recorded? Let me find

18 the row. Page 102, row 24, it says "at the street," but it doesn't say

19 the name of the street mentioned by the witness. The witness said that

20 they said that they had lost a Vitez at Santic Street. I think we all

21 heard that. So could that be corrected, please? I think there is no

22 dispute over that, is there?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: There is no controversy about that.

25 MS. DRENSKI-LASAN: [Interpretation] Just for the record, could the

Page 1190

1 correction be made?

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Generally speaking, I would like you

3 to allow me to give the floor to either party. I think that is the best

4 procedure to apply. Otherwise, there may be difficulties in the

5 interpretation, switching from one language to another. Some languages

6 take longer than others for the interpretation.

7 Mr. Prosecutor, please continue.


9 Q. Were prisoners of Heliodrom involved in forced labour?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you personally?

12 A. On two occasions, I had to go, but they had some consideration for

13 older people, not to use them for forced labour.

14 Q. Could you specify in which locations you performed your forced

15 labour?

16 A. Yes. All locations? By the bridge of Avijati Carski Most,

17 Stotina Most, Cekrk, the hill of Hum, in the street of Santiceva near the

18 bridge called Carinski Most, and also in Pijesci, the first elementary

19 school there. There is also an automobile society in Mostar there.

20 Q. Do you remember for which units did you perform forced labour?

21 A. Avijati Carski Most, Stotina, Hum, all of that was under the 9th

22 Battalion of the HVO. Twice at Bakanluk. That was Mr. Vinko Martinovic,

23 under his control. Then up there by the bridge called Carinski Most, that

24 was under the second battalion.

25 Q. Now you named a person Vinko Martinovic?

Page 1191

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When did you hear his name first?

3 A. Well, I can't remember exactly. Stela as a nickname, that is what

4 was heard in Mostar. He was a well-known person in Mostar by his

5 nickname.

6 Q. Did you see him while being in Heliodrom?

7 A. I saw him once when I went to Bakanluk to work there under him,

8 that is where his headquarters were, and from about ten metres away,

9 somebody said to me, "This is Mr. Stela." Before that, I had never seen

10 him. I was never in contact with him.

11 Q. What kind of work did you perform on the day when you saw Vinko

12 Martinovic?

13 A. On that day, a group of three or four of us went to where the car

14 driving school was, because we were supposed to use metal sheet and

15 plastic to separate the two. We worked together there in cooperation with

16 the Croats.

17 Q. In your witness statement you mentioned that on one occasion some

18 prisoners from the Heliodrom were used as human shields. Could you expand

19 on it a little bit? When it happened, who was in charge of the forced

20 labour performed by the prisoners on the day?

21 A. I don't know what they did, but the practice was the following:

22 Every 10 or 15 days, from the Heliodrom, about 30 to 35 people were taken

23 to meet the needs of Vinko's unit, and they would stay there and spend the

24 night there, for 10 or 15 days, by his headquarters. Then there would be

25 a shift that replaced them, and then other people would come to replace

Page 1192

1 these people who had been working before and they would get a rest. I

2 don't know what they did, whether these were fortifications or whatever.

3 However, there were groups - like, I was there twice - who went there to

4 work only for one day at Mr. Stela's. The second time I was allocated I

5 was supposed to clean the gymnasium at Pijesci, its an elementary school

6 there, so the soldiers could seek recreation there.

7 Q. What about human shields?

8 A. Human shields. People knew that this was going on when the group

9 of 35 people was taken away. After that I heard that they were a human

10 shield on the Bulevar, in the direction of Semovac. Out of these 35

11 people -- I mean, from these 35 people, I heard that two were freed, one

12 because of heart trouble and the other one because of a wound in his neck,

13 and he was sent to the Split hospital. These two never returned.

14 The late Vinko came after five days. This conflict had stopped,

15 and he said, "Okay. Who wants to go to Stela's?" Another 30 or 35 men.

16 "Don't be afraid. There is no more war. The war has stopped." So then

17 he got another 35 people and he did not return anyone out of the first 35

18 who had left. I don't know what happened. I have information that some

19 of them fled across the Bulevar and saved themselves, whereas there are

20 others who are registered as missing persons.

21 Q. But why did you claim in your witness statement that they were

22 used as human shields? What do you know about that?

23 A. We have information that people who were staying at Mr. Stela's,

24 among other things, at the carpentry shop they made wooden rifles, and

25 that day when this action took place, they were dressed in camouflage

Page 1193

1 uniforms and they carried these wooden rifles. And this was at dusk, when

2 only the silhouettes of rifles could be seen. That was this human shield,

3 and behind them were the soldiers of I don't know which unit. That's it.

4 That's what the survivors told me personally.

5 Q. Do you know what had happened?

6 A. I can't remember exactly. It was towards the end of

7 summer/beginning of autumn.

8 Q. Okay. When were you released from the Heliodrom?

9 A. From the Heliodrom, releases started on the 16th of December,

10 organised in cooperation with the International Red Cross. However, my

11 hall and the one next to it were vacated and I remained with about 40

12 others, and I imagine I was supposed to be used for some kind of

13 exchange. So we were the last to stay behind at the Heliodrom on our

14 own. The Red Cross could not come, or SFOR, or rather, UNPROFOR. No one,

15 no one; only guards who gave us food.

16 So one evening just before Christmas - it was the 24th - they came

17 in the evening around 7.00. It was already dark. They put us into a bus

18 and they took us to Gabela, the direction of Gabela.

19 You want me to go on talking?

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: No. That's enough.

21 Mr. Fourmy, I have completed my direct examination just within the

22 time I was allotted. Thank you very much.

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor.

24 Witness G, it is now the turn of the Defence to question you.

25 Perhaps Ms. Lasan will be the first.

Page 1194

1 cross-examined by Ms. Drenski-Lasan:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness G.

3 A. Good afternoon.

4 Q. I have to address you that way. I am Drenski-Lasan, attorney at

5 law, and I am going to be putting questions to you on behalf of Mladen

6 Naletilic. I am his Defence co-counsel.

7 Sir, since my first questions will be related to some information

8 that is confidential and that has to do with the witness, could we please

9 move into private session.

10 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, private session,

11 please.

12 [Private session]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 1195












12 Page 1195 redacted private session.














Page 1196












12 Page 1196 redacted private session.














Page 1197












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1198












12 Page 1198 redacted private session.














Page 1199












12 Page 1199 redacted private session.














Page 1200

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [Open session]

10 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We are in public session. May I ask

11 you both to make pauses between questions and answers, and between the

12 answers and the questions, please? Thank you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.


15 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please briefly describe a BH army

16 uniform to me?

17 A. I cannot remember exactly. They were also camouflage. At first

18 they first came from East Germany, with a bit of stripes and green, but as

19 for the emblem, I remember a lily and the HVO emblem here was a joint

20 emblem, the joint insignia they had.

21 Q. In which year were these joint insignia and emblems?

22 A. I don't know. Please. I'm sorry, but forget about these

23 questions. I am not a person who had any kind of military engagement. I

24 had myself civilian work obligation in Soko. I did not have a uniform and

25 I wasn't really interested in this and I did not move about.

Page 1201

1 Q. You said that you woke up on the morning of the 9th of May at 5.00

2 and that you were awakened by loud noise that came from shooting, from

3 weapons, and that you saw that there was shooting going on towards the

4 eastern part of Mostar?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Yes?

7 A. I went to the balcony of my apartment.

8 Q. Was there shooting from the eastern part of Mostar towards the

9 western part of Mostar?

10 A. No, not at that moment.

11 Q. How long were you at the balcony?

12 A. For my own safety, it was a minute or two.

13 Q. This shooting continued all day?

14 A. Yes, yes. Except in the afternoon when we went to the faculty,

15 then it abated, the shooting.

16 Q. In your vicinity, did you hear shooting or an explosion?

17 A. No.

18 Q. When a soldier, or, rather, three soldiers came to your apartment

19 in the afternoon, you said that one of the soldiers spoke to you, that he

20 checked your papers?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And that you showed him a document?

23 A. Yes, yes. My personal identity card, the one I had issued to me

24 by the HVO.

25 Q. When did you get this identity card? When did you get it?

Page 1202

1 A. When I got my assignment for compulsory work at Soko, we had to

2 have an ID, because the old IDs were no longer valid. We had to have new

3 documents.

4 Q. When was this?

5 A. In 1992, I guess. If you wish, I still have a pass, a permit,

6 that allowed me to enter the Soko factory in 1992.

7 Q. You said that you were taken from your apartment to the mechanical

8 faculty and then to the Velez stadium?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You came to the stadium around 1700 hours?

11 A. Around 1700, 18.30 or 1700.

12 Q. You stayed there about two hours?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Within those two hours, these 13 remaining persons and those

15 girls, there was nobody else at the stadium actually apart from you?

16 A. No.

17 Q. When you were first brought to the mechanical engineering faculty,

18 you mentioned the name of Mr. Anicic.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know which post he then held?

21 A. Yes. He was deputy commander of the police station.

22 Q. Do you know who his superior was?

23 A. His superior was a gentleman who I knew only by his nickname,

24 Dzida, Zeljko Dzidic.

25 Q. Tell me, was this the military police?

Page 1203

1 A. I am not very well-versed in what their authority is. For me, it

2 is only the police station.

3 Q. Did you see any other persons there who were not from the group

4 that you were brought in?

5 A. Yes. I said so, in the neighbouring room, in the other room, when

6 we were leaving the mechanical engineering faculty.

7 Q. Were there any soldiers there who had military uniforms with white

8 belts?

9 A. I mentioned one lady, Jasmina Skaljic.

10 Q. You saw her?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I am making an effort to speak as slowly as possible for the

13 interpretation, so please, witness, when I stop, that doesn't mean that I

14 have finished my question.

15 A. I apologise. I guess I start speaking immediately.

16 Q. I'm waiting for the interpreters to finish interpreting the

17 question, because the presiding officer is receiving interpretation in the

18 French language. So listen to the interpreters a bit in your headphones.

19 So can I conclude that you saw this lady, Jasmina, when you were

20 first brought to the mechanical engineering faculty?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What kind of belt did Mr. Anicic have?

23 A. I didn't notice.

24 Q. Tell me, please, as for these events that took place at the

25 mechanical engineering faculty, (redacted)

Page 1204

1 (redacted)

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us where?

4 A. (redacted).

5 Q. Thank you. When you came to the mechanical engineering faculty

6 the second time, you were taken to the basement. These are rooms that are

7 below ground level; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. We saw the sketch here, three rooms, a hall, and toilet. Can you

10 estimate the overall area covered by that basement, how big it was?

11 A. Around 60 square metres approximately.

12 Q. Tell me, please, what kind of lighting was there in the basement?

13 A. None whatsoever.

14 Q. What kind of door was there on the room that you were in, which is

15 marked as Room 1?

16 A. This was a make-shift door, made out of wooden boards, like on an

17 outhouse, for example.

18 Q. What kind of doors were on Rooms 2 and 3 respectively?

19 A. There were normal doors there, normal doors that had been placed

20 there by the original construction. However, they were used to such an

21 extent that they didn't really work well.

22 Q. So all three doors were wooden doors, right?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. You mentioned -- you mentioned that some soldiers came who said of

25 themselves, "We are Tutici." How many soldiers were there?

Page 1205

1 A. I don't know the exact number because the door is small, then two

2 or three of them appeared at the door. How many stayed behind in the

3 hall, I don't know.

4 Q. You heard the words "Mi smo Tutici, we are Tutici" pronounced?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were they actually uttered by one and the same voice?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Tell me, please, do you know a person who has the nickname Tuta?

9 A. Personally or visually?

10 Q. My question is whether do you personally know somebody called by

11 that name?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you hear that nickname being used frequently in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15 A. I'd rather not answer that question.

16 Q. Did you hear children calling each other by that nickname, adults

17 having that nickname, that it's a nickname used among the people?

18 A. That pot has a different name in our language, a night pot.

19 Q. From your answer, I understand that this is a nickname given to a

20 child that has -- that suffers from an ailment due to which he can not

21 control his urine?

22 A. I have no answer to that question.

23 Q. Can you please answer my question? When you say "a night pot,"

24 you mean a pot used to relieve oneself, to pee in?

25 A. No, to relieve oneself in.

Page 1206

1 Q. I see. Thank you. Since you mentioned Madam Skaljic and her

2 arrival at the Heliodrom, tell us, was she in civilian or military

3 clothes?

4 A. In military clothes.

5 Q. Did she have white belts or any white sleeve patch indicating that

6 she belonged to the police?

7 A. I later noticed that she wore white belts.

8 Q. Tell me, before the 9th of May, was there any shooting in Mostar?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know anything about the movement of the army from the

11 northern to the southern barracks, or any agreement reached to that

12 effect? Barracks or camp?

13 A. That was probably after Dayton, this movement by the troops. That

14 is what the public heard.

15 Q. Were you interested in the situation in town, the peace agreement

16 reached to overcome the situation?

17 A. Of course. I would love it if Mostar was what it used to be

18 today.

19 Q. We heard today that Mostar is a town divided by the river into two

20 parts. Could you tell me, regarding the Bulevar, on which bank of the

21 Neretva River is it?

22 A. On the right bank of the Neretva.

23 Q. How far is it from the Bulevar to the right bank of the Neretva

24 River?

25 A. It depends from which part of the Bulevar.

Page 1207

1 Q. Well, let us say roughly where the health centre is. From the

2 health centre to the right bank of the Neretva, how far is that?

3 A. 800 metres to one kilometre.

4 Q. Tell me, please, do you know the ethnicity of Juka Prazina and

5 Armin Pohara?

6 A. Judging by the names, they are Muslims.

7 Q. Let me go back to another small point, and that is the event at

8 the Heliodrom. When you said that the soldiers came who said that a

9 soldier of theirs had got killed in Santic Street, did they come alone or

10 were they escorted by someone?

11 A. We were inside. Who came with whom and how many of them, I don't

12 know.

13 Q. Tell me: Were you allowed, during your first and second stay in

14 the Heliodrom, to go out into the yard?

15 A. In the period from the 9th of May until the 19th of May, we had

16 freedom of movement. We could wash our clothing, even play ball, all day

17 long, together with the guards. However, from the 1st of July, they would

18 let us out only for meals, for them to distribute the meals, and we had to

19 go back in with them, and then we were locked up all day long.

20 Q. I asked you this because you described Juka Prazina's headquarters

21 there. You even mentioned some dogs.

22 A. Yes, yes. That was from the 9th to the 19th of May, this contact

23 with Juka Jusuf Prazina.

24 Q. So you're talking about the period when you could play ball?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1208

1 Q. You said that after a certain period of time, or rather, when you

2 were released for a second time, you went to rejoin your family, and I

3 won't say where.

4 A. Yes. I went back to my apartment.

5 Q. In view of the fact that you moved around in that part of town, do

6 you know anything about the camps in the eastern part of Mostar?

7 A. I didn't move around. From my first release from the Heliodrom

8 until my second arrest, there were 40 days in between, and I didn't move

9 around, because I felt that it was not a good idea to go among the people

10 and to talk about these things. I went down only once, maybe on the 25th

11 day, to have a cigarette in front of my building. And how could I know

12 about eastern Mostar when there was a blockade, not a bird could cross

13 over into the eastern part of town? How could I know about any camps if

14 they existed in the eastern part of town?

15 Q. You told us that after your last release via Jablanica, you joined

16 your family: your daughter, son-in-law, and wife. So this was a later

17 period. In that period, I'm asking you.

18 A. This was when I returned around the 22nd of January, 1994, when I

19 went to the eastern part of Mostar.

20 Q. So when you arrived in eastern Mostar, did you learn anything

21 about the existence of camps in that part of town?

22 A. I have the right not to answer this question, because I told you:

23 I am not a military man. I am not familiar with these things.

24 Q. You can tell me that you don't know, but as to whether you have

25 the right to answer a question or not, there are certain rules governing

Page 1209

1 that. If you don't know, tell me you don't know; if you do know, then

2 please give me an answer.

3 A. I don't know.

4 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] I see. You don't know.

5 I have no further questions for this witness. Thank you.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Lasan.

7 Mr. Seric or Mr. Par, is it possible to carry out a

8 cross-examination in two minutes?

9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] If the witness gives me an answer to my

10 first question, then I can stop immediately; I won't have any more

11 questions.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:

13 Q. Mr. G, today you mentioned an event in which allegedly 35 people

14 were killed as human shields. Allegedly those men were taken to Vinko

15 Martinovic, Stela's unit, and that they never came back. My question is

16 as follows: Do you have a single piece of evidence to corroborate that

17 here in this courtroom, or is it something that you heard about, that

18 others told you about, which is not your personal knowledge, and which you

19 can claim only on the basis of having heard about it from somebody?

20 A. I can. Staying at the Heliodrom, I could see this replacement of

21 groups every ten days. The group that was being used to carry out works

22 for Mr. Vinko Martinovic did not return to the Heliodrom. The late Vinko

23 took a second group.

24 Q. Allow me, please, to repeat: Are these your conclusions that you

25 made on the basis of something? So do you have any personal knowledge

Page 1210

1 about this event or is it what other people told you and certain

2 inferences that you made? That is why I interrupted you.

3 A. I heard stories that they had been used as a human shield, but I

4 was able to see for myself that this group did not return as usual to the

5 Heliodrom. That I am convinced of. You must understand what I'm saying,

6 please.

7 Q. I'm not pressuring you to give a hasty answer. I just want to

8 see, because Mr. Fourmy asked me how long the cross-examination will

9 take. Let us come to an agreement. Will you able to give me names:

10 such-and-such a person told me on such-and-such a date? Will you able to

11 tell me, "Such-and-such a person was killed on such-and-such a date. I

12 know that because I saw it or I didn't see it"? Can we proceed in that

13 way, or will it simply be reduced to you saying, "I was told by people

14 about this"? So my cross-examination depends on your answer.

15 A. I do not have concrete names to be able to tell you such-and-such

16 a person told me about participation in a human shield. These are stories

17 and assumptions.

18 Q. And what about these wooden rifles?

19 A. People who were in the workshop and made those wooden rifles told

20 me about that.

21 Q. But you don't know any names?

22 A. No, I don't know any names.

23 Q. Can we agree, then, that you don't know any names about human

24 shields? Do you know the names of the people killed, the 35 men killed?

25 A. No, I don't.

Page 1211

1 Q. I see. Do you know exactly which front line was held by Vinko

2 Martinovic, Stela's unit?

3 A. I don't know.

4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

5 [Defence counsel confer]

6 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] We are just conferring for a minute,

7 so that we would indeed like to complete this today.

8 [Defence counsel confer]

9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. G, let us agree on what you said at the beginning. So could

11 you tell us once again: Everything that you told us today, is it all what

12 you heard from other people, without any personal knowledge about it on

13 your part, these things that I asked you about just now? If you confirm

14 that for me, then that will be the end of my cross-examination.

15 A. I told you: I am personally convinced that the group did not

16 return to the Heliodrom. That's clear. But I heard from others about

17 their participation in human shields.

18 Q. So these are people that you are unable to name today?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Par.

22 Mr. Prosecutor, 18 1/2 seconds, maybe, if you have any additional

23 questions.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I don't have any questions. I will follow my

25 colleague's example.

Page 1212

1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] That's a brilliant example of a

2 spirit of competition that is most productive.

3 Witness, thank you very much for coming all the way to The Hague

4 to convey to us the information that you have, to allow us to make

5 progress in this case. You may now leave. Thank you once again for being

6 present and for the information you gave us, and I wish you a safe journey

7 to your country of residence.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, and thank you to

9 everyone.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] It is 5 past 5.00. This was a very

12 busy week. Madam Lasan.

13 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] Just a technical question. We have

14 not received the transcripts from these deposition hearings from Wednesday

15 or yesterday, and we would need them for the weekend, because there are

16 things that we need to review. So if anything could be done about that, I

17 would be very grateful.

18 THE REGISTRAR: I spoke with Ms. Lasan about that earlier and

19 contacted the relevant parties, who indicated that the transcripts would

20 be ready today.

21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] It's because we're working too hard.

22 I won't keep you any longer. Thank you all for the work done this week.

23 I see, Mr. Prosecutor, that we have to work overtime.

24 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, at the risk of incurring everyone's wrath,

25 two very quick questions. There had been some earlier discussion a couple

Page 1213

1 of times about the possibility we might work in Courtroom 3 next week.

2 You may not have an answer to that, but I just bring that to your

3 attention again. I think it would be much more comfortable for most of

4 us, certainly for, I must say, for us over here. So that was just simply

5 one reminder. And just for clarification's sake, next Thursday afternoon,

6 would we understand, then, that basically we would be off that afternoon

7 or -- yes, the whole afternoon. Thank you.

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, you are right

9 regarding Thursday, the afternoon of the 2nd of August. There will be no

10 hearing in this case. That is why I pressured you a little bit.

11 Regarding Courtroom number 3, Madam Registrar, could I ask you if

12 you could check about that? I think that it is indeed free. I must

13 admit, frankly, though I see that the bench of the Prosecution is rather

14 tight, could the Registrar contact both parties between now and Monday

15 morning so that the necessary steps are taken.

16 I did not address myself to the accused. I see that they were

17 very active and involved throughout the deposition hearings, and I thank

18 them too, because I think it is important for the accused to show

19 patience, sometimes perhaps even more than their counsel. Krsnik, yes.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My client, though he didn't feel well

21 at all, has done his best to bear us out. And you're aware of his health

22 problems. And he took a pill and he really didn't feel well after the

23 second break, but he's managed to sit it through.

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] That is why I addressed you,

25 Mr. Krsnik. I spoke to both Mr. Naletilic and Mr. Martinovic. Very

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1 well. It is nine minutes past 5.00. I wish you a good weekend, and we

2 meet again on Monday at quarter past 9.00.

3 --- Whereupon the Deposition Hearing adjourned at

4 5.09 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday the 30th day

5 of July, 2001, at 9.15 a.m.