Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2387

1 Tuesday, 18 September 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, please continue with your witness.


8 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik: [Continued]

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

10 I should like to ask the usher to please move slightly the ELMO,

11 because I cannot see the witness.

12 Q. Good morning, Witness.

13 A. Morning.

14 Q. Will you please tell me if you talked with somebody between

15 yesterday and today?

16 A. No, I did not talk to anybody between yesterday and today. Yes, I

17 talked to somebody at the hotel; but regarding this case, no.

18 Q. Tell me, please, according to the statement that -- of the

19 statement that you gave to the police in your country, you reported for

20 that interview on a Friday. Is that correct?

21 A. I do not remember the day, but it's possible.

22 Q. And you were told to come back on Monday, and that you would make

23 your statement then, isn't it?

24 A. Yes, it's true that I made an appointment. I came back a couple

25 of days after.

Page 2388

1 Q. And you spent the whole weekend thinking what and how you will

2 talk about this and what kind of a statement you would make on that

3 Monday. Is that correct?

4 A. Whether it's correct that I had time to think, I don't know. I

5 went to work on that weekend and came back after work, directly after

6 work.

7 Q. Is making a statement to the police an everyday routine, a common

8 thing to you?

9 A. No, it's not a common thing for me.

10 Q. So you say you were not worried. Once you made up your mind to

11 make the statement, you didn't begin to worry about what kind of a

12 statement you would be making, especially as you were told that that

13 statement could be used against you?

14 A. I wouldn't say I was particularly worried. I just made my

15 statement.

16 Q. Tell me, please: And you spoke freely, and you told them the

17 whole and complete truth, did you?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. You gave the statement freely and spoke about everything that you

20 knew. Is that it?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. And tell me: Whilst you talked to the police, or rather, the

23 investigators of this Tribunal, as you put it, did you also speak freely,

24 or did they ask you questions? Was it a question-and-answer method, or

25 did you just talk freely?

Page 2389

1 A. It was a mixture of both.

2 Q. Were certain -- did they try to put some words into your mouth,

3 some thoughts and ideas?

4 A. No, I wouldn't say that. They didn't, no.

5 Q. For instance, did they physically describe to you Tuta, as you

6 call him? Did they describe the gentleman to you physically? Did they

7 tell you what he looked like physically to jog your memory or something?

8 A. No, they asked me to describe him, and I did.

9 Q. Uh-huh.

10 Then, tell me, how is it -- if you said the whole truth in your

11 first statement, how is it that you never once mentioned that Tuta, and

12 you told them the whole and complete truth?

13 A. The first statement that I gave was about the prisoners being used

14 as human shields, and Tuta was not present during the attack where the

15 prisoners were being used as shields. It came later, when the

16 investigators asked me for the battalion command.

17 Q. I'm not asking you -- I did not ask you what you have just told

18 me. Of course I have no way of knowing what you had in your head when you

19 made the statement, but the fact is that you never mentioned him. And

20 later on, when you met with the investigators, you did say something about

21 him. So I'm asking you about that police, and I did ask you a while ago

22 whether it was the whole truth. And you said, yes, that you had told them

23 the whole truth.

24 A. I did tell the truth. What I told them was the truth, it was.

25 Q. Right. In March 1993, you said you left Denmark. When was that?

Page 2390

1 Was it the middle of March or the end of March?

2 A. I'm not quite sure. I don't remember. It was sometime in March.

3 Q. Do you remember, when did you arrive in Zagreb?

4 A. Some like three days after I left the Danish border.

5 Q. Was this still March or was it April by that time?

6 A. It was still March.

7 Q. And you stayed several days in Zagreb, did you?

8 A. Yes. I stayed in Zagreb for approximately three days.

9 Q. Tell me, you communicated in English whilst in Zagreb?

10 A. No. It was mostly in German.

11 Q. And no sooner did you arrive in Zagreb than you looked for the

12 police. Did you think that it was the police that you should report to as

13 a volunteer?

14 A. I wasn't sure where to report to, so I guess I just asked the

15 policeman so that he could give me advice, where to go.

16 Q. In 1993, in April or March, was there a war in Zagreb, was Croatia

17 at war?

18 A. There were no war actions in Zagreb, and I don't know if there was

19 fighting going on down south. I don't know.

20 Q. So you introduced yourself to a policeman and said what was your

21 objective, and he directs you to the Ministry of Defence straight away; is

22 that how it was?

23 A. No. First he -- first he advised me to go to a police station,

24 and he said that they would drive me to a place where I could sign up for

25 the Croatian army.

Page 2391

1 Q. And you asked to join the Croatian army, did you?

2 A. Yes, that's true.

3 Q. And at the Ministry of Defence, they admitted you straight away,

4 somebody saw you straight away, but they refused to enrol you in the

5 Croatian army; is that correct?

6 A. That's correct. They told me that the Croatian army were not

7 taking any more foreigners within their ranks because they had a problem

8 with the United Nations, doing that.

9 Q. And you knew that there were foreigners in the Croatian army

10 before that; did you have that personal knowledge?

11 A. Yes, I knew that.

12 Q. In the statement that you gave to the police of your country, you

13 said that Mr. Blazinovic saw you. And in a statement that you gave to the

14 OTP, you said that he travelled with you and that he was a commander.

15 Now, was he somebody working for the Ministry of Defence or was he a

16 commander? Which one of these two things is true?

17 A. He was a commander for the unit in Posavina/Orasje.

18 Q. Tell me, that 1993, in March or April that year, were there any

19 HOS members in Zagreb?

20 A. Yes, there was.

21 Q. Did they wear their patches to show what forces they belonged to?

22 A. Yes. I met a guy at the Ministry of Defence who was wearing a

23 black uniform with a HOS patch on his left arm.

24 Q. Do you know, when was HOS disbanded in Croatia?

25 A. No, I do not know.

Page 2392

1 Q. Tell me, please, you then went to Orasje and spent six months

2 there. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. And after that, you went back to Zagreb and stayed in Zagreb a

5 couple of days. Is that correct?

6 A. I don't remember the whole time I stayed in Zagreb, but it's true

7 I went to Zagreb from Orasje, yes.

8 Q. And from Zagreb, you went to Mostar. How long did it take you to

9 reach Mostar? Were the roads open? And could you travel normally, as you

10 liked, or did you have to take some roundabout routes?

11 A. I think we had to take some roundabouts, but it was quite easy to

12 travel to Mostar. And it took me about 24 hours, I think.

13 Q. I calculated that time very well. And now I will ask you, you

14 couldn't reach Mostar prior to the end of September. Is that correct?

15 A. Do you ask me when I reached Mostar or...?

16 Q. Yes, one could put it that way, but since I did my calculations,

17 so my question is very simple: You couldn't make it to Mostar before the

18 latter half of September. The earliest that you could get there was the

19 latter part of the second half of September. I'm asking you if you

20 remember that.

21 A. I don't remember the specific date I arrived in Mostar. I don't.

22 Q. But you were in Mostar?

23 A. I was in Mostar, yeah, late summer '93.

24 Q. Late summer '93, you were not in Mostar then.

25 A. When did you say, please?

Page 2393

1 Q. End of the summer. End of the summer '93, you could not be in

2 Mostar then.

3 A. I was in Mostar late summer '93, yes. I don't remember the

4 specific date, but it was somewhere late summer '93.

5 Q. Both in the statement that you gave to the police of your country

6 and the one that you gave to the OTP, you described identically your

7 journey, you described identically the time intervals. And if one does a

8 simple calculation, one sees that you could not have arrived in Mostar in

9 late summer '93. So will you tell us what is true, the first statement,

10 the second statement, or what you are telling us today?

11 A. I'm telling nothing but the truth. And I was in Mostar in late

12 summer '93. How you calculate, I don't know. But I was in Mostar late

13 summer '93, yes.

14 Q. Very simple. Even if you had left Denmark on the 1st of March,

15 you couldn't have got there before the 1st of September even if you had

16 taken a plane, because you said that you spent six months in Orasje. And

17 that's why I'm asking you that. I'm asking you if that's correct. Is

18 your statement that you spent six months in Orasje correct?

19 JUDGE LIU: I saw Mr. Prosecutor is standing.

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, it seems that the witness three

21 times answered the Defence question, that in the late summer 1993 he was

22 in Mostar. Whether you like it or not, the response is given. No need to

23 repeat your questions several times.

24 Thank you.

25 JUDGE CLARK: Will the Prosecutor address his remarks to the Bench

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Page 2395

1 and not to Defence counsel, please.

2 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE CLARK: We don't want any quarrelling between counsel at any

4 stage in this trial.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, it is true that the witness said that he was

6 there in the late summer three times.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I will

8 answer my colleague. And thank you, Your Honour, Judge Clark, for your

9 intervention.

10 I think that I'm following a very simple logic, because it

11 transpires from the statement from this witness. I'm not making up

12 anything, and this is the purpose of cross-examination.

13 Your Honours, if I may, if somebody says in two statements that he

14 spent six months somewhere, and then in a third statement says that he

15 left in March, then one does very simple addition and arrives at a

16 conclusion. And in the cross-examination, I'm entitled to check the truth

17 of one's statement. He can repeat 20 times that it was -- he was there in

18 late summer, but the conclusion -- but, well, we shall leave the

19 conclusion for the future. Thank you.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry, Mr. Krsnik, for intervening. Perhaps you

21 could ask this witness what he means by late summer, and then we might get

22 a month out of him.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

24 Q. Please be so kind and tell us what do you mean when you say late

25 summer in Mostar, in Denmark, to see the difference, if there is one.

Page 2396

1 A. I don't know if there's any difference from Denmark to Bosnia, but

2 late summer, I mean, like August, September.

3 Q. By "late," would you include the latter, the second half of

4 September in that definition of late summer?

5 A. I guess so.

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 You said that a soldier that you found there in Mostar or wherever

8 you were, that there was no command structure, that it wasn't a proper

9 army, that they were all either drunk or drugged.

10 Did you also drink and take drugs?

11 A. No, I did not. Yes, I had some drinks, but not on the front line,

12 no. When I was off duty, yes, I had some beers with my friends.

13 Q. And you never took any drugs?

14 A. No, I didn't.

15 Q. In what language did you communicate in Mostar? How would you

16 keep up with events?

17 A. Sometime it was pretty hard, but we mostly communicated in German,

18 English, and then by interpreter.

19 Q. Tell me: On the 17th of September, would you say it was the first

20 or the second half of September?

21 A. The 17th must be the second half of September, yeah.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Naletilic's Defence

23 has no further questions for this witness. Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Par.

25 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 2397

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Par: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Good morning, Witness Q. I'm Mr. Zelimir Par. I'm one of the

3 counsel of Vinko Martinovic.

4 Let's start off with March 1993. You said that it was then that

5 you departed Denmark in order to join the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

6 and you stated as your reason, your idealism, your sense of adventure, and

7 your desire to fight the Serbs.

8 Can you please tell us more specifically what ideals were you

9 fighting for and why did you want to fight the Serbs?

10 A. From what I saw -- from what I saw in the media, television,

11 newspapers, it was -- the bad guy was the Serbs violating Croatia.

12 Q. Did you have any particular position in regards of Croatia? Did

13 you have any special ties, any relationship?

14 A. No, not at all.

15 Q. Thank you. Did you also want to fight the Muslims? What was your

16 position in regards of that?

17 A. When I arrived, the Croats and the Muslims were fighting together,

18 at least in Posavina they were. But later on, there were hostilities

19 between those two parts.

20 Q. And what was your attitude towards Muslims and Croats then? What

21 happened to your ideals in the light of this conflict; did they change or

22 did you just want to participate in a war, regardless of who was fighting?

23 A. I don't know if my idealism changed. I think so, yes, after a

24 while in the Croatian army. Things was not like they -- like they looked

25 as when I left Denmark. Something -- it was just realism.

Page 2398

1 Q. So why didn't you go straight back to Denmark? Why did you decide

2 to stay on?

3 A. Now I was in the army, and I felt like I have to do my duty, like

4 everybody else in that army.

5 Q. Now, you also mentioned this sense of adventure which also led you

6 there. Was that based on a desire to make some money as a mercenary or

7 perhaps reap some other benefits through some booty or any such thing?

8 Were you thinking along those lines when you decided to join the war?

9 A. No, I never went down to Croatia for the money. Already before I

10 left Denmark, I knew that the foreign volunteers down there were not paid

11 very well. It was not for the money, no.

12 Q. Very well. Can you now please tell me what your motivation was to

13 come here as a witness, to give evidence here? What motivated you to do

14 that?

15 A. Because I feel like what I was part of in Mostar, using prisoners

16 as human shields, has nothing to do with soldiering. As I see it, a

17 soldier in a western country wouldn't do that; not in my army, at least.

18 Justice has to be done. That's my motivation.

19 Q. Very well. When you came back to Denmark from Croatia, did

20 somebody from the police authorities or judicial authorities talk to you,

21 have an interview with you, regarding the events in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. No, never.

23 Q. Were you perhaps afraid that some court proceedings could be

24 launched in respect of what you were involved in, in Mostar and Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina, what you may have been involved in, so that you could have

Page 2399

1 been also included in some of the proceedings in respect of those events?

2 A. No, I never thought about that.

3 Q. Let us go back to the tragic death of the five-year-old boy in the

4 apartment in Mostar to which you testified yesterday. Are you aware that

5 there was a police investigation about this incident in Mostar and that

6 your friend Adolf was deported to Austria and then to Germany, where the

7 court proceedings against him continued; do you know about that?

8 A. I know there was a police investigation, at least I saw police

9 officers outside the apartment, but I'm not aware of what happened after

10 that, no.

11 Q. Do you know and did you see that after that incident, immediately

12 after the death of that young boy, it was Stela in person who arrested

13 this man, Adolf, and turned him over to the police?

14 A. Yes, I know that. I saw him at Stela's headquarter, where he

15 was -- I couldn't see if he was arrested, but he was sitting there

16 defending himself.

17 Q. Were you also detained or arrested in connection with that

18 incident and questioned by the police?

19 A. No, not at all.

20 Q. Immediately after that incident, were all foreigners who were

21 members of that unit relieved from their post in that unit; do you know

22 that?

23 A. No, I do not know that.

24 Q. In terms of time, how long was it between that incident and when

25 you were let go?

Page 2400

1 A. I can't remember that.

2 Q. Approximately a month, ten days, a couple of months, shortly

3 thereafter, long thereafter?

4 A. I can't remember it at all.

5 Q. Very well. Later on - this is still in relation to this incident,

6 the killing of this young boy - did you later learn that this boy was not

7 an orphan at all but that his parents lived in your immediate

8 neighbourhood, and that Stela personally organised the burial of this boy

9 and helped finance it?

10 A. No, I wasn't aware of that.

11 Q. Yesterday you mentioned a Danish citizen, whose name we agreed not

12 to mention in this courtroom, who, along with you, was a member of that

13 unit in Mostar. Did you see him after you had left Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina? Were you in contact with him in this intervening period

15 since you've left Bosnia and Herzegovina?

16 A. Yes, I spoke to him on the telephone a couple of times.

17 Q. Can you recall approximately when it was that you last talked to

18 him?

19 A. It's many months ago. I don't exactly remember when.

20 Q. Did you tell him that you were going to give evidence before this

21 Tribunal?

22 A. We talked about -- he mentioned to me that he has been talking to

23 some investigators, but we never talked about giving testimony in this

24 Tribunal, no.

25 Q. Did you tell him what you did: that you went to the police, that

Page 2401

1 you responded to these proceedings by trying to contribute to finding the

2 truth about it? Did you talk to him about this?

3 A. No, I kept that to myself.

4 Q. There were other foreigners in this unit, Canadian and American

5 citizens. You did not want to divulge their names, while you did reveal

6 the names of the other foreign members of this unit. What was your reason

7 for your protecting the names of these Canadians and Americans?

8 A. Both of them were close friends with me, we served in a unit

9 together after all this in Mostar, and I don't want to involve them in any

10 of this.

11 Q. Of what?

12 A. This trial.

13 Q. Why? What is bad about their being mentioned in this Tribunal, to

14 be referred to? Why do you believe that this would be something

15 unpleasant to them?

16 A. I'm quite sure that no -- none of them would feel comfortable by

17 coming here. I'm -- I just know that they wouldn't be comfortable doing

18 this, I'm sure, and I don't want to involve them. If they want to do it,

19 they have to come themselves.

20 Q. Very well. When you joined the Croatian army and the HVO, did you

21 use your real name or did you use a false name?

22 A. I used my own name, my real name.

23 Q. Very well. Are you currently still a soldier, or can you tell us

24 what you do now?

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, you understand that this witness is under a

Page 2402












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Page 2403

1 pseudonym, so I advise you not to go into the very details which might

2 identify this witness.

3 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I think Your Honour understands the

4 comment.

5 Q. (redacted)

6 A. (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 Q. Thank you.

9 Yesterday, during the cross-examination, you said that after your

10 return to Denmark, you had -- you experienced problems in readjusting to

11 life in Denmark. And you were asked why it was -- why it took you six

12 years to give a statement after your return.

13 My question is, during the period of time of your readjustment,

14 did you undergo any kind of therapy? Were you confined, perhaps, in any

15 way? Maybe did you run afoul of the law? Did anything happen in those

16 six years?

17 A. I received no therapy, no. I was in conflict with the law one

18 time, that's true. I have been -- how you say, for violence. I spent

19 60 days in prison for beating up another man.

20 Q. Can you tell me, do you speak any Croatian, or what languages do

21 you use to communicate with people?

22 A. Under normal circumstances in Denmark or --

23 Q. Actually, I'm interested in Mostar. What did you use?

24 A. English, German, and some Croatian. I speak a little, not much.

25 Q. In the unit in which you served, who knew English and German? Who

Page 2404

1 were the persons who spoke those languages and with whom you could

2 communicate?

3 A. I don't exactly remember the names, but there was one guy who

4 spoke English quite good. We called him "Sky News." Us, the foreigners,

5 we called him "Sky News."

6 Q. Thank you.

7 Let us turn to that unit a little bit. Can you tell us what size

8 unit it was, how many men were in it?

9 A. I would say 30, 35 men, just about that.

10 Q. Did you know the command structure of this unit? Yesterday, you

11 mentioned on several times -- several times that commanders were issuing

12 some orders. So do you know anything about its command structure?

13 A. It was very hard to tell if there was any structure in the unit,

14 but I knew Stela was in command. And while you were doing front service,

15 you were just listening, taking orders from the men who were giving them,

16 mostly running around with a Motorola radio. That's just about it.

17 Q. Very well.

18 Yesterday, you were mentioning those officers -- in other words,

19 they were just there issuing orders, but they didn't have any rank

20 insignia or other insignia?

21 A. That's true.

22 Q. Can you now tell us, what was the relation -- did the position of

23 the command of the city of Mostar to Stela and his men? Do you know

24 anything about the flow of orders from the city command to Stela?

25 A. No, I don't know anything about that.

Page 2405

1 Q. Now, let me ask you this: Did this unit ever move from the

2 positions which it held and which you showed us yesterday on the map?

3 A. No, we never moved. Yes, from building to building. But we

4 didn't move from the area, no.

5 Q. Did this unit have the same task as other units who were deployed

6 next to it, and what was that task?

7 A. I think they had the same task as units next to them, and the task

8 was holding the positions and the building to prevent that any enemy

9 soldiers were passing through.

10 Q. Very well.

11 Now, let me ask you this: Were members of this unit persons who

12 used to live in that neighbourhood before the war, or were these recruited

13 convicts, as you pointed out at one point yesterday? Could you establish

14 that through your direct communication with them?

15 A. The thing I said about that they were ex-convicts, that's one

16 thing I was told. I was told that the Kasniske Bojna, punishment

17 battalion, when the unit was formed, it mainly consisted of ex-cons from

18 ex-Yugoslavia. But I guess that many of the members of the unit were

19 living in the area of Mostar, the neighbourhood.

20 Q. When you say living there, were they always living there, or did

21 they move there?

22 A. I don't know how long time they lived or if they actually lived

23 there. But there was some locals, that's for sure. I don't know if they

24 moved to the area or lived there always. I don't know.

25 Q. Very well.

Page 2406

1 Now, you mentioned prisoners who were held by the unit. Do you

2 know how they came to be there? Did the unit take them prisoner and held

3 them or what?

4 A. I don't know how they got there, but -- whether they were

5 civilians or whether they were ex-members of the Armija BiH, but they were

6 prisoners.

7 Q. Very well.

8 Now, were these prisoners kept under some special watch? Were

9 they tied? Where did they sleep; where were they fed? Can you try to

10 tell us a little bit about that?

11 A. They were not tied or locked up. They walked around free in the

12 area. Where they did eat, I don't know. At the place, I guess.

13 Q. Were prisoners allowed to go back to their families in town and

14 then report back to the unit?

15 A. I don't know if they were allowed to do that. I didn't saw that.

16 Q. Yesterday, you said that you saw a case of torture on one of the

17 prisoners, and one of your friends, (redacted) the mercenary, was beating a

18 Muslim prisoner. My question to you is: Did you report this incident to

19 anyone? Did you go to Stela or to some other commander and tell them that

20 this had happened?

21 A. I saw this (redacted), who you're regarding as my friend, and I

22 don't regard him as my friend. I didn't like him. No, I did not report

23 that incident.

24 Q. Very well. I'm sorry if I mentioned him as your friend and he was

25 not. Could you distinguish between Croats and Muslims and Serbs in

Page 2407

1 Mostar? Were you able to make such distinctions?

2 A. Whether there were any Serbs in Mostar, I don't know. But I could

3 distinguish the Croats from the Muslim, the Muslims as prisoners and the

4 enemy, of course.

5 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that I couldn't hear the

6 interpretation. Very well, thank you.

7 Q. Let us now go back to that action that you took part in, and let

8 me ask you when this action took place. Can we try to narrow it more, in

9 terms of when exactly it happened?

10 A. I don't have any specific dates, but somewhere in the late summer,

11 you know, '93.

12 Q. You said that a day before this action was to take place, somebody

13 told you that there would be an attack, that the tanks and artillery would

14 be used, that there would be wooden rifles that would be placed in the

15 hands of prisoners. Who was it who told you this, and who else was

16 present during that conversation, and where did the conversation take

17 place?

18 A. I don't know who it was, I don't have a name on him, but it was

19 one of the guys who were in command at the front line, and the

20 conversation took place at the front lines a couple of days before the

21 attack.

22 Q. And who else was present there, somebody who could confirm this,

23 with whom we could corroborate this?

24 A. The conversation went -- when it took place, there was us, the

25 foreigners, were present. And the other Danish guy was present, for

Page 2408

1 instance.

2 Q. Can you tell me, in which language did the commander speak?

3 A. I don't quite remember, but I think it was English. Maybe half

4 English, half Croatian. I can't quite remember that.

5 Q. A moment ago, there was a question, "Who spoke foreign languages

6 in this unit?" You said that there was one person who spoke English

7 well. Was that the person who told you these things?

8 A. No, I don't think that was the person. There were several guys

9 speaking English, but the one I mentioned before was one of them who was

10 speaking very good English, that you could actually have a conversation

11 with him. But I don't remember if he was present during this

12 conversation.

13 Q. The commander who spoke to you, how did he speak English? Was he

14 fluent, did he speak broken English, could you understand him?

15 A. I can't remember. Maybe the interpreter was being used. I can't

16 remember.

17 Q. I'm sure we'll be able to verify that. If there was one

18 interpreter in the unit, there was one person who spoke English well, and

19 do you refer to that person as the interpreter?

20 A. I can't refer to actually one person as an interpreter. Things

21 were interpreted every day, but interpreting, good interpreting -- much of

22 the conversations were like half German, half English, half Croatian, a

23 mixture, you know.

24 Q. Did the name "Alen Nargilic" mean anything to you?

25 A. I remember a guy, a Croatian guy, named "Alen," yes, and he spoke

Page 2409

1 rather good English, quite good English.

2 Q. Was he perhaps the interpreter responsible for your group, for the

3 group of foreigners?

4 A. There was no actual interpreter who was responsible for anything.

5 If it was needed and if it was possible, things were just interpreted by

6 somebody who could do it.

7 Q. Very well. Just one more question about this. Was Alen Nargilic

8 present at that conversation a day or two before the attack when the

9 attack was discussed; do you remember that? Was he present there or not?

10 A. I do not remember that.

11 Q. Was it he that you nicknamed "Sky News"? You said that one of

12 them had a nickname "Sky News." Was he the one, was he the soldier who

13 spoke well English?

14 A. No, he was not the one. The one called "Sky News," he was called

15 "Sky News" because he had this flak jacket, like a flak vest, bulletproof

16 or whatever, with a "Sky News" logo on it. It was a blue flak jacket with

17 white "Sky News" logo in the front of it.

18 Q. And that "Sky News," was he present on that occasion; was he

19 present at that conversation?

20 A. As I said, I do not recall who was present.

21 Q. Thank you. Very well. Now, let's move on to that day, to the day

22 of the attack. You say that you saw three prisoners then with some kind

23 of wooden rifles. Did you know those three men? The prisoners, did you

24 know them?

25 A. I'm not sure if I knew them. I really didn't have any kind of

Page 2410












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Page 2411

1 personal relationships with any of these prisoners. Whether I knew them,

2 I'm not sure.

3 Q. Very well. Then on the basis of what do you claim that they were

4 prisoners and that they were Muslims? How did you come to that

5 conclusion?

6 A. It was said that Muslim prisoners were being used, and I guess

7 they were Muslim prisoners. They were not Croatian, I can tell you that.

8 Q. I see. Very good. And they allegedly had some kind of wooden

9 rifles, as you say. Could you tell us, what colour were those rifles?

10 A. The same colour as the wood, so dark wood.

11 Q. Do you mean were they painted or was it just natural dark wood or

12 something?

13 A. They were not painted. It was like that natural dark wood.

14 Q. Did they have these belts or something on them to carry them over

15 the shoulder?

16 A. No. They kept them in their hands.

17 Q. Could you -- since you've started describing the situation to us,

18 could you tell us, what were they doing when you saw them? Were they

19 standing, sitting down? Could you please describe the situation when you

20 saw them? What were they doing, how were they at that moment?

21 A. They were sitting inside the room in a building as I described as

22 Number 1 yesterday. They were sitting with the rest of us, all the

23 other -- the soldiers.

24 Q. And these wooden rifles, where were they? Were they just next to

25 them, in their hands, or what?

Page 2412

1 A. In their hands and on their laps, as you hold a rifle, as a hold a

2 normal rifle.

3 Q. Did you perhaps see some crates with ammunition nearby, crates

4 that would have to be taken to the front line? Did you see anything like

5 that in that room?

6 A. We were at the front lines, so ammunition was tucked in magazines

7 and pockets and bags over your shoulder, if any extra ammunition was being

8 brought forward. I don't remember if I saw any cases of ammunition.

9 Q. And next to those prisoners, did you see anyone carrying them?

10 A. Carrying what?

11 Q. No, no, no. Stretchers, did you see anyone carrying with

12 stretchers?

13 A. No, I don't remember I saw anyone carry any stretchers, no.

14 Q. Tell me: At that moment when you saw them, did you know what

15 those prisoners were supposed to do or what they were about to do?

16 A. Yes, I knew that --

17 Q. What?

18 A. I knew --

19 Q. What were they to do?

20 A. I knew they were to be used as a shield in front of our unit when

21 we start the attack.

22 Q. How did you know that? Did somebody tell you that, explain it to

23 you there on the spot, or had you learned it before -- a day or two before

24 during the conversation that you had? How did you know that?

25 A. It was being told at the conversation a couple of days earlier

Page 2413

1 when the plan was being told to us. And now they were there at the front

2 line before the attack with wooden rifles, so it was obvious what they

3 were being used as.

4 Q. All right. So my question was, you did not learn it there and

5 then but from that previous conversation you have already described to us

6 in detail. Thank you.

7 Now, my question is, did anyone especially guard those prisoners?

8 Was any kind of coercion applied to them? Were there any people with

9 weapons surrounding them at that moment and guarding them until the moment

10 when they were sent to the front line?

11 A. When I saw them, they were in this small room, the room we waited

12 in while the artillery and the mortars were coming down. So in that room,

13 there would possibly not be any way of escaping. And they were

14 surrounded -- surrounded, you could say -- next to all of these soldiers,

15 including me, with weapons, yeah, rifles.

16 Q. If I understand your answer, they were practically in the same

17 situation as everyone else, except that you knew they were prisoners and

18 those others were soldiers. Is that it?

19 A. They were in the same situation as the rest of us except their

20 rifles were made from wood.

21 Q. Of course. I meant -- what I meant was that there weren't any

22 special guards guarding them, nobody else watched them, threatened them

23 or -- I don't know -- forced them to do something, anything of that kind?

24 A. No, you couldn't tell that by looking at the situation. But they

25 were there.

Page 2414

1 Q. Very well.

2 Now, do you know, you personally, do you know what those men,

3 those prisoners, were told? Prior to the action, do you know what they

4 were told?

5 A. No, I don't know that.

6 Q. Do you know how they were picked out to take part? Why those men

7 were selected to take part in the action?

8 A. I don't know how they were picked out. I heard from someone

9 else - I don't remember who - that they were just put up on a line, and

10 those three rifles were issued to three prisoners. How they were

11 selected, I don't know.

12 Q. You heard that, but you were not present, and you have no personal

13 direct knowledge of that. Is that correct?

14 A. I was not present at that moment, no, that's correct.

15 Q. Do you know if that day, any one of those prisoners was killed or

16 wounded? Of those three that you saw there, did you see any one of them

17 killed that day?

18 A. No, I did not see anyone killed that day, no.

19 Q. Do you know or did you learn later on if those prisoners, perhaps,

20 fled to the side of the BiH army and stayed there on that day?

21 A. I can't tell you. This is only rumours that I heard after this

22 attack, that one of the prisoners escaped over to the other side, the

23 Muslim side. And also rumours that one was being killed, and one was

24 still behind the Croatian lines. But as I said, it's only rumour that I

25 heard. I can't tell -- can't say if it's true.

Page 2415

1 Q. Very well. So my question was, did you know that that day they

2 escaped and stayed there? And you say I heard various rumours, but you

3 have no specific knowledge and personal knowledge. You have no personal

4 knowledge whether they escaped. You did not see them or anything.

5 A. No, I have no personal knowledge of what happened to these

6 prisoners after this attack.

7 Q. Very well.

8 Now, we have this action underway. During the action, did you see

9 those prisoners again; and if you did, tell us, please, where were they,

10 what they were doing, what you were doing, how far you were from them.

11 Will you please describe to us the situation when you saw them, if you saw

12 them?

13 A. I saw them inside this room where we were waiting while the

14 mortars were coming in. And then the tank came out, started shooting, and

15 the orders were given to attack. And those three prisoners were the first

16 to run out in front of us. I saw that. But after that, when the enemy

17 fire were coming in on us, I lost eye contact with them. After that, I

18 don't know what -- where they were.

19 Q. All right. If I understood your answer, throughout this action,

20 you saw them once at the moment when they ran out in front of everybody

21 else, and that was the very beginning of the action. After that, you did

22 not see them again. Is that what you said? Did I understand you well?

23 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.

24 Q. Very well.

25 Now, you said that in your view, they were to serve as a human

Page 2416

1 shield. Will you please define the term "human shield" to us? Will you

2 tell us what do you think their role was, if they were a human shield?

3 What does that mean?

4 A. It would mean their role would be to take the first casualties, if

5 there was to be any. The first enemy bullets would hit them instead of

6 the rest of us. That would be their role.

7 Q. Does that mean that they would protect you, shield you, with their

8 bodies? Is that what it means?

9 A. Yes, exactly.

10 Q. Now, in that situation that you are describing to us, the three of

11 them are running. I do not see them shielding anyone. How can they

12 shield anyone with their bodies? Are you also running? Are you moving in

13 a column? How are you moving? If they were to shield anyone with their

14 bodies, how you were behind them, running, how are you moving?

15 A. First, when we ran out of this little room where we had been

16 waiting, we ran in a kind of single column until we came out in the open,

17 and we spread out, mostly to the left side with the front to the enemy.

18 We spread out to the left side along this low concrete wall in front of

19 us.

20 Q. Please, perhaps it will be easier if you show it to us on this map

21 here.

22 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Can the usher please help me. This is

23 14/5, Prosecution's Exhibit. We saw it yesterday. So could we have it on

24 the ELMO but with a clean copy, that is, an unmarked copy.

25 Q. So, Witness Q, you are familiar with this photograph?

Page 2417

1 A. Yes, I am.

2 Q. Now, I should like to ask you to first show to us, and then -- and

3 after that, we can also mark it. Can we see here, can you describe to us

4 that moment when you saw those prisoners taking part in the action. So

5 what we want you to tell us is, We were here when the attack commenced. I

6 started to run. I saw prisoners there. And then let us try to see how

7 did they shield you with their bodies.

8 Perhaps we should start with this: Where were you before the

9 attack started? Can you show it to us on this photograph?

10 A. Over here in this building at the bottom floor.

11 Q. Let's put number 1 here. Will you mark it straight away so that

12 we can get a clear picture.

13 A. This building, number 1.

14 Q. So you were sitting together there with the prisoners; I mean

15 before the attack. And where did you then run out? Will you mark with

16 number 2, the exact spot when you saw them. That is, you say they ran

17 out, and I spotted them. So will you put number 2 at the place where

18 you -- when you spotted them, when you saw them.

19 A. I already saw them in the building, and then when the order --

20 Q. Yes, right.

21 A. Then the tank was starting shooting, and the orders to attack were

22 given, and I saw them run out from this room.

23 Q. No, no, don't put anything yet.

24 So you are saying that you were in the room when they were

25 outside. Is that it, that you were inside and they were outside?

Page 2418












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2419

1 A. No, we were all in the room together.

2 Q. Yes, I understand that. But when the attack started, you all left

3 the room. Did you all leave at the same time, or did they come out first

4 and you followed? Or did you stay behind in the room, and they were

5 already out?

6 A. When the order was given to attack, they were the first sent

7 out -- they were the first to run out, the three prisoners. And the rest

8 of us, we followed them behind them.

9 Q. Now, will you put number 2 to mark the place where you saw them

10 outside the building.

11 A. There.

12 Q. Now will you point at the direction or the road or the route which

13 the tank was taking? You don't have to draw anything. Will you just

14 point at it with a pointer? What was the route of the tank?

15 A. The tank was -- the tank was coming from here, driving up on the

16 side of the building next to us, right here.

17 Q. Right. So tell us, was there some connection between them and the

18 tank; that is, was the tank pursuing some other task and they had nothing

19 to do with the tank or was there something to do with the tank, between

20 them and the tank? Or perhaps you can't tell us whether their actions

21 were associated in any way with the tank.

22 A. The tank was there to support us and the prisoners, and the rest

23 of us were running between the tank and between Building Number 1. The

24 tank had relation to us. It was there to support us, support the attack.

25 Q. Right. Can you remember if there was any gunfire at the moment

Page 2420

1 when those prisoners ran out? Was there any gunfire from any side at that

2 moment?

3 A. I think there was a little gunfire, yes. But the gunfire started

4 for real when we came out in the open, the open area.

5 Q. Please, where did this fire come from? Were you protected? From

6 which direction did this gunfire come? If we look at this mark 2, site

7 number 2, where did the gunfire come from?

8 A. I guess -- I'm not sure, but I guess it would -- from over here.

9 No, wait.

10 Q. How far was that?

11 A. I guess about 75 metres or something.

12 Q. And were there any sandbags at this point marked "2"?

13 A. There was a bunker nearby mark 2, sandbag bunker.

14 Q. And I guess -- aha, a bunker with sandbags. So that tank then

15 moved forward. You drew to us its route yesterday. I'm asking you: On

16 these streets here, were there any anti-tank protection? Were there

17 anti-tank mines laid, were there those hedgehogs to stop the tanks? Was

18 there any kind of protection here along this front line?

19 A. No, there was -- there wasn't any tank protection, nothing. I

20 don't remember -- I don't recall so.

21 Q. And to finish with this tank: How many projectiles did it fire,

22 what was its role, how did it act?

23 A. The tank acted like it was herding here, taking cover somehow

24 behind the building, and once in a while it was driving up in the open,

25 take aim and fire on enemy position. And I don't know how many rounds it

Page 2421

1 fired up; 10, 15 rounds with the cannon.

2 Q. All right. Now, let's go back to the prisoners. Tell us, please,

3 did these three prisoners shield you personally in any way? You say it

4 was human shields, so were they a kind of a human shield for you,

5 personally, under these circumstances?

6 A. Yes, I guess they were, they were human shields even for me.

7 Q. How did they shield you? Will you please explain it to me? I'm

8 afraid I don't understand it. You explained to me what "human shield"

9 means, and you explained it now. In real life, in the real situation, did

10 they protect you in some way, and how? Will you please tell me, how did

11 they protect you?

12 A. They were protecting me and protecting the rest of us, all the --

13 all of us, with their human bodies put between us and the enemy fire.

14 That's just about it.

15 Q. How many of you were in that group; 10, 20?

16 A. It's hard to tell, but I would say 15, 20, something about like

17 that in this attack group. The rest of the unit was standing and

18 supporting from the windows.

19 Q. And how far ahead of you were they? Are you moving in a single

20 file, in a column, or are you all fanning out and running to take up your

21 positions?

22 A. As I said, when we left the room, we ran in kind of a single

23 column because it was a very narrow -- there was a very narrow space

24 between the building and the tank and also the bunker. When we got out in

25 the open area, we spread out. First in single column, and then we spread

Page 2422

1 out on the line.

2 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see it is almost 11.00,

3 and perhaps this will be a convenient time. I've covered more than half

4 of the ground that I intended to cover, so perhaps this would be a

5 convenient time to make a break.

6 JUDGE LIU: We are adjourned until 11.30.

7 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par, please continue.

10 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Witness Q. Can we now, please, have the map placed on the ELMO

12 again.

13 Witness Q, I would like to finish dealing with this map, and I

14 would like to fill in some more details. Point 1 is the structure where

15 you were before the attack. With "2", you marked the location where you

16 saw these prisoners.

17 Can you now mark with number 3 where the tank was, the tank that

18 you mentioned, where that tank was.

19 The point where you saw the prisoners, where was the tank?

20 Am I to understand that the tank had passed through, and you and

21 the prisoners came running out?

22 A. Yes, that's true. The tanks were approximately at mark 3.

23 Q. Very well. Can you now mark the positions of the AbiH. Maybe

24 just draw one line and mark it with number 4.

25 A. Will you please repeat the question?

Page 2423

1 Q. I would like you to mark the positions of the army of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina, that is the Muslim side. And if it is a longer line, maybe

3 just draw a full line marking those positions.

4 A. I'll try to. Something like that.

5 Q. Very well. Can you now put numeral 4 somewhere along that line so

6 that we know that these were the positions of the army of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina, or ABiH?

8 A. I can't exactly mark each enemy position because they were well

9 concealed, camouflaged within these buildings. But the position were on

10 or behind or maybe slight forward this line.

11 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Par. Mr. Par, before you continue, would you

12 please give us some descriptions of those lines that the witness marked

13 for the sake of the record.

14 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honours. Very well.

15 Very well. For the record, witness, when asked to point the

16 direction where the positions of AbiH were, drew a line along the Bulevar

17 across from the building marked with number 1 where the witness was before

18 the attack.

19 Q. Witness Q, I understand your problem, but I am not asking you to

20 mark specific positions of the members of AbiH. I would like you to

21 simply mark with number 4 any part of the line that you drew, so just put

22 it anywhere along the line, and we will simply know that that is to mark

23 the line alongside which the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was deployed,

24 or where the line of defence or line held by the army of Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina was.

Page 2424

1 In other words, just put number 4 anywhere along that line.

2 A. Okay, understood.

3 Q. Now, if I can ask you to, again, draw another line that would show

4 where you believed yourself to be threatened by the enemy fire as you

5 emerged from the building, in other words, where you thought you could

6 have been fired upon and your lives could have been threatened?

7 A. You mean from where?

8 Q. Yes, the enemy positions.

9 A. That could have been from anywhere, but I presume...

10 Q. And perhaps you can put an arrow there, an arrow pointing towards

11 number 1. If you can mark it with 5, next to the arrow.

12 Now, will you please mark with the next number, 6, the low wall

13 which you used as a cover when you emerged from the building.

14 Now, can we, if at all possible, draw a line where that column was

15 moving, the direction in which this column was moving so that we can see

16 what space was covered between the building and the wall.

17 A. You mean the route of the single column before we spread out on

18 line, when we emerged from the building?

19 Q. Exactly.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Can you tell us approximately what distance that was, how many

22 metres from where you came out of the building to where you took cover?

23 A. Twenty-five, thirty metres, something like that.

24 Q. And do you believe that that was the space where you could have

25 been threatened by the enemy fire before you took cover?

Page 2425

1 A. You mean if we were exposed to enemy fire before we took cover?

2 Q. Well, going back to those human shields which you mentioned, my

3 question to you is: Because your testimony, your evidence, was that there

4 were two or three prisoners in front of you and there was danger of your

5 being hit by enemy fire, this distance of 25 to 30 metres, was that the

6 distance where you felt that you were in danger and where these human

7 shields were supposed to help protect you?

8 A. The real danger started, I think, as soon as we spread out, just

9 before we took cover below this low wall. I don't know whether there was

10 any specific danger and why we were running in single column, but, yeah,

11 there were bullets in the air and enemy fire.

12 Q. Very well, thank you. Now, let me ask you one more thing

13 concerning that column. Do you recall who was immediately ahead of you in

14 that single column? Was that one of the prisoners or one of the members

15 of the unit?

16 A. I don't exactly recall. But I was just about in the middle of

17 this column, so it must have been a soldier.

18 Q. Thank you. Very well. Now, let me ask you one more thing for the

19 record, because I probably did not say everything that you have drawn on

20 the map. Can I also help you go down the list of the numbers that you've

21 made? On Photograph 14.5, number 1 represents what, the building where

22 you were before the attack started and which is on the boulevard behind

23 the fountain; is that correct?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. Number 2 on this map is to the left of Structure 1, and it marks

Page 2426












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2427

1 the place where you saw the prisoners during this action; is that correct?

2 A. That's the last place I saw the prisoners, that's correct.

3 Q. Number 3 marks the position of the tank at the moment when you

4 came out, and its location is several dozen metres in front of the

5 position marked with number 2; is that correct?

6 A. That was number 3's -- it's one of the points where the tank was,

7 but you have to understand that the tank was sometimes taking cover behind

8 the building and sometimes driving forward to aim and fire and

9 reposition. So it was like driving backwards and forwards all the time.

10 Q. I understand that. But just for the record, we're just trying to

11 figure out what number marks what. So number 4 marks the line held by the

12 AbiH forces, and it extends along the boulevard; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. Point 5 is an arrow which marks a possible direction of fire from

15 the enemy positions towards you, and it extends from the positions held by

16 the AbiH forces at the boulevard towards a building marked with number 1.

17 Excuse me for a moment. I'm not sure if we've covered all the points. Is

18 there a Point 7?

19 If we can keep this photograph there for a little while longer,

20 can you give me an answer to this: From the positions which we marked as

21 "4," along that line, were there any other positions from which you could

22 expect fire, from which you were potentially threatened by enemy fire?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Very well. If you don't know, fine. Another question which is a

25 follow-up question, but whether there were any Apex barriers or any other

Page 2428

1 type of barriers that were deployed there. And do you recall any other

2 incident -- another incident during your stay with Stela's unit when a car

3 bomb was sent from the positions of AbiH? A small Fiat 750 model, this

4 small vehicle was sent in the direction of your position, and can you tell

5 us what stopped this vehicle? Were there any obstacles which prevented

6 this vehicle from reaching your lines and killing you? Do you recall an

7 incident like that?

8 A. Yes, I do remember the car bomb was stopped at our position, but I

9 wasn't present at the front line that day. I arrived at the front line

10 the day after. And what stopped this car bomb, I don't know if it was

11 obstacles or friendly fire.

12 Q. Very well, thank you.

13 Just one more question concerning the prisoners. Where were those

14 rifles when they stepped out of the building? When you saw them at the

15 position marked with 2, did they have those rifles in their hands?

16 A. I think so, yeah. I'm not sure, but I think so.

17 Q. You're not sure? Very well.

18 That day, were you under influence of alcohol, drugs or anything

19 else?

20 A. No, not at all.

21 Q. Who was commanding this -- on that day in the course of this

22 action?

23 A. Who was in command? I can't tell you for sure. There was a guy

24 with a radio, giving orders. As I said before, it was hard to tell the

25 structure of the unit.

Page 2429

1 Q. Very well. You said that.

2 But did you understand the language that he was speaking? Did you

3 understand what orders he was issuing, what he was saying to whom at that

4 time?

5 A. No, I was just sitting waiting for the attack. And when the

6 orders was given, it was go, go, go. And it's pretty obvious what meant

7 "go;" attack.

8 Q. Witness Q, can you explain to us briefly, why did you ask for

9 protection of this Court? What do you fear? What consequences might you

10 suffer in your country as a result of your giving evidence here?

11 A. I don't want my names to be put out on newspapers, things like

12 that.

13 Q. Very well. Do the police authorities in your country know of your

14 appearing here to give evidence? Were they involved in making

15 arrangements for your coming here or something like that?

16 A. No, they are aware I was going down here. But all the

17 arrangements was made from here, from the witness assistance --

18 Q. Very well, thank you.

19 I'll take you back quickly to the units and to the events which

20 you described while you were there. You said that on one occasion,

21 foreign mercenaries who were German went to loot and told you about it.

22 Did you see the looted goods?

23 A. No, I did not.

24 Q. Did they tell you to which neighbourhood they had gone?

25 A. No, they didn't.

Page 2430

1 Q. Did they tell you, were they looting abandoned apartments or

2 apartments that were occupied by people?

3 A. The apartments were not abandoned. There were still people living

4 in them, as I understood it.

5 Q. Very well. Did they describe to you the manner in which they

6 committed these acts of looting? How did they loot?

7 A. They didn't speak to me especially about it, just that they were

8 out in some neighbourhood where there were still living people.

9 Q. On that occasion, was this person, Adolf, under the influence of

10 drugs or something else when he was telling you this?

11 A. It's possible. He had a --

12 Q. Very well, just briefly. And this Carlos, was he also inebriated

13 or something like that?

14 A. This Carlos, he wasn't the man which drank alcohol or used drugs,

15 anything.

16 Q. Can you tell me, what does ethnic cleansing mean to you? Since

17 you mentioned it yesterday, when you refer to ethnic cleansing, what do

18 you mean by that?

19 A. Whether it's ethnic cleansing or not, it's not up to me to

20 decide. But I would describe ethnic cleansing as --

21 Q. I'm sorry, I did not ask you to give me a definition. But when

22 you say ethnic cleansing, what do you refer to when you say this?

23 A. To -- how should I describe? To get rid of some person that you

24 don't want to be in the area, either by move them or kill them or just

25 remove them from the area you don't want them to be in. That is what I

Page 2431

1 would describe as ethnic cleansing, to remove a person that you don't want

2 to be in --

3 Q. And who are the persons -- I mean what are the criteria, who are

4 the persons that we want in a certain area or not?

5 A. It's probably the enemy population you don't want in the area,

6 Serbs or the Muslims.

7 Q. Very well. You also said that you saw groups of elderly Muslims

8 who were crossing the line of separation. And my question to you is, do

9 you know why these people were crossing over to the other side? Were they

10 driven out, or did they want to be in a part of town where the majority of

11 their group was during this conflict?

12 A. I don't know if they were forced to go to the east part of the

13 town or they volunteered to go to the east part. I don't know.

14 Q. Do you know that an identical situation was created on the other

15 side, that numbers of Croats were crossing over to the other side of town?

16 A. No, I wasn't aware of that.

17 Q. Are you aware of the fact that people, Muslims, came to a unit

18 every day, asking to be allowed to cross over to the other side to join

19 their family, to move to another environment? They came to the unit to

20 ask for help. Are you aware of those cases?

21 A. No, no, I'm not aware of that.

22 Q. Right. Witness Q, did you ever have any contact of any kind with

23 members of AID, Bosniak Security Service, at any time and on any matter

24 before now, during your stay here?

25 A. What do you mean by "Bosnia Security Service"?

Page 2432

1 Q. The Bosniak Security Service, well, the Bosnian police, in a word.

2 But this is a special one, this is a state police or a secret police, if

3 you like, which performed certain affairs concerning witnesses. That's

4 why I'm asking you. Did you have any contact with them?

5 A. No, I have no contact with any authorities from Bosnia or Croatia

6 since I left.

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this was the end of my

8 cross-examination. Thank you.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr. Prosecutor?

10 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour, I've got a couple of

11 questions.

12 Re-examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

13 Q. Just to return to this incident with civilians being taken across

14 the confrontation line, Witness Q, perhaps you will be able just to mark

15 on the picture the place from where you observed that situation and the

16 way the people were crossing the confrontation line. Could you do that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Just a moment. Don't touch upon the Defence exhibits.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Maybe the usher could put our own exhibit from

20 yesterday, just P15.5/4, "/4" because it was marked by four witnesses.

21 It's yesterday's.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Yes. And we'll put Number 4 here the way -- okay, could you

24 explain now number 4?

25 A. Yeah. They were sent --

Page 2433

1 Q. Where were you at --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the Prosecutor. Please,

3 microphone.


5 Q. Where were you at the time?

6 A. I was in this position here.

7 Q. "This position here," it means --

8 A. There was a bunker, there was a bunker here.

9 Q. Just for the record, Witness, put number "4" at the position of

10 the bunker where you were.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Number 4 is put just next to the building identified as number 1.

13 And where were the people coming from?

14 A. They were coming from behind this building, in between these two

15 buildings, and sent this way.

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: For the record, the witness is -- according to

17 Witness Q, the people were taken from behind the building marked as number

18 3, just turning along the road, along the street.

19 Q. And here you may put "number 5" in the area of the arrow.

20 A. Next to the arrow?

21 Q. Next to the arrow, yes.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Were those people escorted by some soldiers?

24 A. Yeah, they were. Before they were sent out, there was shouting

25 from the Croatian side, "Don't shoot, don't shoot," in Croatian "Ne

Page 2434












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2435

1 pucaj," and they were sent out into the open. They were escorted, yes.

2 Q. By whom?

3 A. By Croatian soldiers from the unit.

4 Q. Was there firing in the area at the time?

5 A. Not heavy fire, but sporadic fire, yes.

6 Q. Thank you. My next question is: Yesterday, you identified in the

7 courtroom a person whose nickname is "Stela". Do you know his real first

8 name, full name?

9 A. I later learned that it was Vinko Martinovic.

10 Q. And my last question is: Do you know if there was any

11 investigation of the incident with wooden rifles and prisoners being used

12 as human shields within the unit or on the HVO side?

13 A. Whether -- if I knew there was some investigation?

14 Q. Yes, yes, that's what my question is.

15 A. No, I didn't know that.

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Okay. That is the end of my redirect, and I

17 would like to tender into evidence our Exhibit 14.5/4. Thank you very

18 much.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Par.

20 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on behalf of the Defence,

21 I should also like to tender this photograph, 14/5. Could we get a

22 number, please?

23 THE REGISTRAR: The Defence number will be D2/5.

24 JUDGE LIU: Judge Clark would like to ask a question to the

25 witness.

Page 2436

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE CLARK: Witness Q, at the very early part of your direct

3 examination, your "examination-in-chief" I think is what it's called here,

4 you said that when you came to Mostar for the first time and you met

5 Stela, that he was very suspicious of you and the other foreigners, and

6 that he interviewed you and he was unwilling to take you. My

7 understanding is that you said after that that he didn't really want to

8 take you but he had to. Am I correct in that?

9 A. Yes. That's the way I understood it.

10 JUDGE CLARK: When you say "had to," do you mean that he was

11 obliged to take you because he was short of soldiers or that there was a

12 superior order?

13 A. Of course there was a superior order. That's what I mean.

14 JUDGE CLARK: And why did you get that impression or how did you

15 get that impression?

16 A. Because we were sent from the headquarter in Mostar. Like the

17 headquarter in Mostar decided where to put us, and that he was just

18 ordered to take us in his unit.

19 JUDGE CLARK: So is it your evidence that the decision as to which

20 unit you were to go to, that was Stela's unit, was made at headquarters in

21 Mostar?

22 A. Yes, that's the impression I have of the situation.

23 JUDGE CLARK: One very difficult question which I regret to say

24 neither the Prosecution nor the Defence asked you, and obviously it's very

25 important in this case: Were the prisoners that you refer to as "human

Page 2437

1 shields" with the wooden guns, were they aware of the role they had to

2 play in that attack? Did anybody tell them? Did they give any indication

3 to you that they were aware?

4 A. I think they knew. I don't know whether they have been told or

5 not, but when we were sitting in this room in Building Number 1, waiting

6 for the attack, it was obvious what they were being used as, and they

7 looked very afraid.

8 JUDGE CLARK: And is that something that you observed yourself?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you very much, Witness.

11 JUDGE LIU: Judge Diarra, you have a question to ask?

12 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 You spoke about a great lack of discipline and that there was

14 disorder in Mostar. Do you mean that the orders would come from several

15 people or that the soldiers simply were not obeying the orders? What did

16 you mean when you said that?

17 A. I mean it was hard to see any discipline or any structure as in a

18 normal army, as I was used to. There, you would always have a structure

19 with groups, platoons, companies, and each man know his role. And

20 sometimes it was very hard to tell which role you played in this unit.

21 And people seemed very undisciplined compared to normal armies,

22 what I was used to as a soldier.

23 JUDGE DIARRA: Thank you.

24 You also spoke about the building of bridges with sandbags. Was

25 that work carried out only by military people, or were civilian prisoners

Page 2438

1 used? Or was it only the civilian prisoners who built the sand bridges,

2 that is, the bridges that were made with the sandbags?

3 A. If there was to be put up any sandbags in windows or any places

4 exposed to enemy fire, it was always prisoners being used, at least,

5 that's what I saw; prisoner being used and guarded by soldiers with

6 weapons.

7 JUDGE DIARRA: My third and final question is the following: You

8 spoke about attacks. At the time of those attacks, were the soldiers

9 being protected by civilian prisoners who were put in between you and the

10 enemy fire? And during the attacks, were there any civilian -- did any of

11 the civilian prisoners get killed or wounded? And if they were wounded,

12 what happened to them afterwards? Were they then taken to be treated, or

13 were they simply left there?

14 A. I never saw any prisoners being hit or wounded, anything. As soon

15 as we came out in the open area, I lost eye contact with the prisoners. I

16 was only thinking about the enemy positions and finding cover and shoot

17 back. I lost eye contact with the prisoners, so I don't know.

18 JUDGE DIARRA: I'm afraid I didn't understand your answer from the

19 point when the prisoners were put in between you and the fire that was

20 threatening you. You could know what happened to them. Did they fall? I

21 didn't really understand what you answered.

22 A. I don't know if any prisoners were being hit. I didn't saw that.

23 I lost eye contact with those prisoners. I didn't saw what happened to

24 them. That's it.

25 JUDGE DIARRA: Thank you, Witness.

Page 2439

1 Thank you, Mr. President. I have no further questions.

2 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of the Judges' questions from both

3 sides?

4 MR. PORIOUVAEV: No, Your Honour, thank you very much. I have no

5 questions.

6 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, thank you.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

8 Witness, thank you very much for giving evidence. You may leave

9 now.

10 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE LIU: As for the tendering of the documents, this

13 Trial Chamber noticed that at the first day of the proceedings, the

14 Defence counsel for Mr. Naletilic and Martinovic expressed their views.

15 They have no objections to all those maps, photos, and the videotapes

16 which compose in the binder Volume 1, from P1 to P53. In this case, they

17 are admitted into the evidence, and the Registrar will give each proper

18 number at a later stage. Thank you.

19 Before we have next witness, I have something to seek to

20 clarification from Mr. Krsnik. Mr. Krsnik, I would like to come to your

21 motion to permit investigator to follow the proceedings filed on 10th of

22 September, 2001. The Chamber has inquired with Registrar as to the legal

23 status of Ms. Visnja Lasan and has been informed that after Ms. Visnja

24 Lasan was substituted as co-counsel by Mr. Meek upon your request, she has

25 not been assigned to the Defence team in any position. The Registrar has

Page 2440

1 confirmed with the Trial Chamber that the legal status of Ms. Lasan as a

2 potential member of the Defence team is currently under consideration and

3 has not yet been decided upon.

4 The Trial Chamber was further informed the Defence of

5 Mr. Naletilic applied to have her assigned as a legal assistant while, at

6 the same time, your motion was pending before the Chamber to have her

7 present in the courtroom as an investigator. In addition, Ms. Lasan's

8 special function as either a legal assistant or an investigator has to be

9 established to follow the rulings by this Trial Chamber. In the meantime,

10 the Trial Chamber will stay its consideration of your motion and request

11 that you furnish further information upon the legal status of Ms. Lasan.

12 Thank you.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, maybe

14 there is a certain confusion or misunderstanding here. So with your

15 leave, I would like to explain that in August this year, as soon as we

16 made a change of co-counsel, it was in our same motion that we suggested

17 that Mrs. Lasan be designated as our legal advisor. That was in the first

18 motion. And throughout, we have been moving to have her approved as the

19 legal assistant, as the legal advisor. Her role on the team has been very

20 important from the very beginning. She has been providing us with legal

21 advice from the very beginning. And the Defence has problems, with which

22 I do not wish to tax your patience, but we have had these problems from

23 the very first day that we have come to this Tribunal. Our correspondence

24 with the Registrar, we always have to -- we have to wait for the

25 responses, and then we are requested to supply additional explanations.

Page 2441

1 Mrs. Lasan is very important for the Defence team.

2 So, Your Honours, you know that we have performed all the previous

3 consultations and preparations and we gauged that this was very serious

4 work. Because co-counsel is approved only two months before the hearing;

5 before that, we are not entitled to a co-counsel. And because of that,

6 because of this prohibition, we had to wait for that. Mr. Meek had other

7 commitments elsewhere, in the United States. We had to wait for him to

8 finish his business there. And as soon as we learned that the main

9 hearing would start on the 10th of September -- and we knew nothing about

10 that official until the 15th or the 20th of August, Mr. President,

11 Your Honours, we did not know when the main hearing would start. But as

12 soon as we learned it, then we informed the -- this Court and the

13 Registrar of the change. Now, it was ten days ago already. We need her.

14 She is indispensable to us in this courtroom, and I would appreciate it

15 very much if you ruled to allow our legal assistant to be present in the

16 courtroom. Thank you.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, I quite agree with you. There is some

18 confusions and misunderstandings between us, and I request you to further

19 any informations concerning the status of Ms. Lasan in a written form.

20 Before that, we will stay the consideration of your motion. Thank you.

21 So, who will take the next witness?

22 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President and Your Honours. I'll

23 be taking the next witness. He is requesting pseudonym and facial

24 distortion, so it may require a little bit of adjusting in the courtroom

25 in order to bring him in.

Page 2442












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2443

1 JUDGE LIU: Of course, yes.

2 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I believe the next pseudonym is the

3 letter R, and so we have already written out the piece of paper with the

4 witness's name and that pseudonym on it, which we can show him after he is

5 brought in.

6 JUDGE LIU: Are you fixing the -- and I hope you can have it

7 copied and provided not only with the Chamber, but also with the Defence

8 counsel.

9 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, just so I'm clear, you would like

10 that to be distributed prior to the time the witness --

11 JUDGE LIU: Before, before that witness is brought into the room.

12 MR. STRINGER: We will do that.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe we could go to the private session for a

24 while.

25 [Private session]

Page 2444












12 Page 2444 redacted, private session.














Page 2445












12 Page 2445 redacted, private session.














Page 2446












12 Page 2446 redacted, private session.














Page 2447












12 Page 2447 redacted, private session.














Page 2448












12 Page 2448 redacted, private session.














Page 2449

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.

15 Witness, would you please stand up and make the solemn

16 declaration.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE LIU: Sit down, please.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Examined by Mr. Stringer:

23 Q. Good morning, Witness. The usher is going to hand you a piece of

24 paper.

25 A. Good morning.

Page 2450












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2451

1 Q. Witness, the usher is going to hand you a piece of paper. I'm

2 going to ask you to look at it. Open it up and tell us whether inside you

3 see your name, your date of birth, and also the profession or the job

4 which you held during the years 1991, '92 and '93.

5 A. Yes, this is all correct.

6 JUDGE LIU: This paper will be admitted into evidence under the

7 seal.

8 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 THE REGISTRAR: The number for this is W18.


11 Q. Okay. Good morning, Witness. Just to inform you that -- can you

12 hear me well?

13 A. Yes, I hear you very well.

14 Q. Just to inform you that for purposes of your testimony in these

15 proceedings this morning, you have been given a pseudonym with the letter

16 R, and I'll be referring -- all of us will be referring to you as "Witness

17 R."

18 A. Fine.

19 Q. And let me ask you, while you are testifying, if you can keep in

20 mind that you are protected, the Trial Chamber has granted certain

21 protective measures in respect of your testimony so that if you could try

22 to keep in mind not to tell us or not to say information which would

23 identify you, such as what was your profession, or perhaps the names of

24 other persons whom you were travelling with at various times.

25 A. I've understood.

Page 2452

1 Q. Now, Witness R, let me ask you whether generally speaking you

2 travelled into the territory of the former Yugoslavia at various times

3 during the years 1991, 1992, and 1993.

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. And if you could just give the Trial Chamber a little bit of

6 background, some of the places in the former Yugoslavia that you went to

7 during 1991, during the first part of the conflict there.

8 A. First I went to Slovenia. And then at the start of the war, I

9 worked a lot in Eastern Slavonia. And then I went to Bosnia. In the

10 meantime, I went back to the front in Dubrovnik in Central Bosnia, then

11 Mostar, Livno, and so forth.

12 Q. So in 1991, you mentioned Eastern Slovenia. Is that in the area

13 of Vukovar, and were hostilities taking place in that region at the time

14 you were there?

15 A. Yes, that's right, in Vukovar and in Osijek.

16 Q. And then you mentioned Bosnia in 1991. Were these the certain

17 northern areas of Bosnia that you went to?

18 A. Yes, that's right. Bosanski Brod, Derventa.

19 Q. During those first trips to the former Yugoslavia, did you have an

20 opportunity to observe various military groups and military operations

21 which were taking place?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Now, I would like to direct your attention, now, to late 1992,

24 particularly the month of November, and ask you whether you and some of

25 your colleagues made a trip into Central Bosnia.

Page 2453

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. Can you tell us, please, precisely where did you go?

3 A. I think that the first time, it was the Travnik sector,

4 specifically Novi Travnik.

5 Q. And do you recall approximately the date in November '92 when you

6 arrived in Novi Travnik?

7 A. It was in November. I don't remember the exact date, but it was

8 in November.

9 Q. Was there a particular reason why you went to this place, Novi

10 Travnik?

11 A. We had learned that there was an initial clash between Bosnian

12 Croats and Muslims.

13 Q. And then if you can recall, what time of day -- what was happening

14 in Novi Travnik when you arrived there?

15 A. Well, it was kind of late in the evening, might have been 10 or

16 11. It was night, it was dark, there was fog. We were looking for a

17 place to spend the night. And we stopped at the Novi Travnik Hotel, which

18 is, in fact, in Novi Travnik. We stayed there, because in front of the

19 hotel, there were military vehicles, Croatian vehicles. And so we stopped

20 there to have some information and to spend the night.

21 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, at this time I'm going to ask that

22 the witness be shown Exhibit Number 3, which is one of the maps that has

23 been tendered previously, a map of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 Q. And just to give us some idea, Witness R, with that map, can you

25 indicate on the ELMO the location of Novi Travnik and Travnik also,

Page 2454

1 another place that you have mentioned already.

2 Perhaps using the pointer, you can point to the map the place that

3 we're talking about.

4 A. I don't see it very clearly here.

5 Here.

6 Q. Okay. And now, just so we have something in the record, could you

7 point to that place again, Novi Travnik. Okay. Thank you.

8 Now, this is a place, for the record, that is a municipality

9 located just to the west of another municipality called Vitez, and just to

10 the northeast of a municipality called Bugojno. Is that correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. We're going to be talking about Travnik in a couple of minutes.

13 So could you also indicate the location of Travnik, particularly the town

14 or the city of Travnik?

15 A. Travnik is right here.

16 Q. Okay. And again, for the record, we are looking at a municipality

17 located directly west of the Zenica municipality and east of the

18 municipality of Jajce. Is that correct?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. Thank you. We can put the map away now.

21 Now, coming back to your arrival, then, that evening in Novi

22 Travnik, you pulled up to the hotel in Novi Travnik. If you could just

23 briefly tell us, then, what did you see, what did you find upon entering

24 that hotel?

25 A. The hotel was being occupied by HVO military personnel. We asked

Page 2455

1 for a room, and it wasn't possible to have one. We asked whether we could

2 have dinner, and they said that we could. So I said that we'll go to the

3 restaurant, and it was filled with HVO military people. We had dinner

4 there. And then we tried to find some information about the situation on

5 site from people who we thought were military people, HVO military people,

6 who would know something.

7 Q. During, then, the course of that dinner, did you and your

8 colleagues, in fact, meet or speak with any of the HVO military personnel

9 whom you found in the hotel?

10 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

11 Q. Can you tell us about that?

12 A. I'm sorry.

13 Q. I was going to ask you if you could tell us about that, who were

14 the individuals that you spoke to, or did you subsequently learn any of

15 the -- meet any of those individuals whom you spoke to that night?

16 A. Mr. Naletilic, among others, and then some military people whose

17 names I don't remember.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. Someone, Ivan Soldo, who was one of Naletilic's deputies.

20 Q. That's sufficient.

21 When you met, could you just tell us the circumstances of your

22 meeting Mr. Naletilic. What was he doing?

23 A. His unit, I think it was his unit, or at least the unit where he

24 was, had come up from Mostar, from Siroki Brijeg, more specifically

25 because there was the first exchange of gunfire, first fighting with the

Page 2456

1 Muslims. That had been the day before we arrived. And so the role of

2 that HVO unit was to protect the Croats, any excesses on the part of the

3 Muslim forces.

4 Q. Let me ask you, again, before we talk in more detail about some of

5 those matters, what was Mr. Naletilic doing when you first met him? How

6 did you meet him?

7 A. What was he doing? He was having dinner. He was about 5 or

8 10 metres from the table I was at with other HVO military people.

9 Q. Now, was there someone in your group, the people that you had come

10 with, someone in that group who was able to speak or communicate with

11 Mr. Naletilic?

12 A. Yes, there was a colleague who speaks German. And so we were able

13 to have some conversation with Mr. Naletilic.

14 Q. Okay. So just so we're clear, then, the conversation that you had

15 with Mr. Naletilic on that evening, this is conversation in German between

16 him and one of your colleagues. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, for the most part, mostly it was in German. There were a few

18 words in Italian and French. But the conversation actually took place

19 90 percent in German.

20 Q. So your recollection of what Mr. Naletilic said on that evening,

21 does that come from what you were informed by your colleagues who spoke

22 German?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. All right. Now, with that, bearing that in mind, then, could you

25 just tell us what you learned that night? Who was Naletilic, what was he

Page 2457

1 doing in Novi Travnik, what was happening there?

2 A. As I said to you, that HVO unit was at the Novi Travnik Hotel, and

3 it had come up from Siroki Brijeg after the attack on the HVO headquarters

4 in Novi Travnik carried out by the Muslim forces. So the HVO unit which

5 was in the hotel had come as reinforcements and to protect the Croatian

6 population.

7 Q. What did Mr. Naletilic indicate was his position in respect of

8 these HVO soldiers --

9 JUDGE CLARK: That's a very leading question. Pose it another

10 way.

11 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Did Mr. Naletilic indicate whether he had any position --

13 JUDGE CLARK: That's another leading question. Did Mr. Naletilic

14 describe his position.

15 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. On that evening, did Mr. Naletilic describe his position?

17 A. No, not at all. Absolutely not.

18 Q. On that evening, based on what you observed, the way he was

19 treated by others, did you, in your own mind, determine whether he had any

20 position?

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, Mr. Meek.

22 MR. MEEK: If it please the Trial Chamber, that is also a leading

23 question. I have to object to that. Suggesting the answer to the witness

24 is highly inappropriate.

25 JUDGE LIU: The question is, On that evening, based on what you

Page 2458












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2459

1 observed, the way he was treated by others, did you, in your own mind,

2 determine whether he had any position.

3 Maybe you could rephrase this question. Just directly ask the

4 witness.

5 MR. STRINGER: I apologise, because I'm trying to be direct. I'm

6 not doing a very good job.

7 JUDGE CLARK: I think it would be very much simpler if you made

8 shorter questions, if you said, "Did you observe anything about the

9 group?" and lead on from there.

10 MR. STRINGER: I think for the moment I'm just going to skip that

11 question and come back to it.

12 Q. So Witness R, tell us, how long did you and your colleagues, then,

13 stay in this place, Novi Travnik?

14 A. We spent one night at the hotel. We stayed in Novi Travnik for

15 two or three days.

16 Q. During those two or three days, did you have an opportunity to

17 observe Naletilic and these soldiers?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What were they doing in the area?

20 A. I think that that unit we were talking about was at the Hotel Novi

21 Travnik. And it was actually part of the Turbe sector, that was the part

22 of the front that was at Turbe, and so it was opposite the Serbs.

23 Q. Were you able to see where these soldiers were during the day?

24 A. Not during the day. I would see them late afternoon or during

25 the -- at night in the mountains.

Page 2460

1 Q. Did you go there by yourself to see them?

2 A. No. Croatian -- HVO Croatian military people would come with us,

3 since we didn't know the way, we didn't know how to go. It was dark, and

4 so we were taken in HVO vehicles.

5 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I see it's a bit after 1.00.

6 JUDGE LIU: Okay. There is one thing I would like to remind you,

7 Witness. Please do not talk to anyone about this testimony during the

8 break, including any members of your family, no matter if it is face to

9 face or over the telephone.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We'll adjourn until 2.30.

12 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.03 p.m.














Page 2461

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer, please continue with your witness.

3 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. Witness R, before the lunch break you were talking about some days

5 you spent in Novi Travnik in November of 1992. Do you recall that?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. And you were talking about some soldiers that you encountered when

8 you arrived at Novi Travnik?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. Do you know what unit those soldiers belonged to?

11 A. No. I just knew that they were HVO soldiers.

12 Q. At any time during those days in Novi Travnik, did you learn who

13 their commander was?

14 A. No, not during the time that I was in Novi Travnik.

15 Q. So you don't know who was the commander of any of those soldiers?

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

17 MR. MEEK: If it please the Court, if it please the Trial Chamber,

18 that question, I object, as it has been asked and answered, and it should

19 not be asked again. Thank you.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think Mr. Stringer is confirming the answer

21 from this witness. Is that true, Mr. Stringer?

22 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: You're just confirming it.

24 MR. STRINGER: I'm just trying to make sure it's clear what the

25 testimony is.

Page 2462

1 Q. You don't know who was the commander of those soldiers that you

2 met in Novi Travnik?

3 A. I wasn't aware.

4 Q. Now, you indicated just before the break that these soldiers --

5 you indicated that there was a Serb front line in the area. Do you recall

6 that?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. How far from Novi Travnik was this front line?

9 A. The front at Turbe must have been about ten kilometres away.

10 Q. And did you go to that front line?

11 A. I went to that front line, yes.

12 Q. And were you allowed to go there just freely?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did anyone give you any authorisation to go there?

15 A. Yes. We got authorisation from the HVO command, the Travnik

16 sector or the Novi Travnik sector.

17 Q. And I'm going to ask you about that in a few moments. Before, I

18 want to limit, if you will -- first of all, let me ask you this: Soldiers

19 that you saw in the hotel on that evening, were those soldiers deployed on

20 this Serb front line?

21 A. You mean the same soldiers that I saw in the hotel and then on the

22 front line? Well, I just don't remember. Really, I don't remember that,

23 whether they were the same.

24 Q. You testified that on that first evening in Novi Travnik, you met

25 someone named "Naletilic"; is that correct?

Page 2463

1 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.

2 Q. And what was his position?

3 A. Really, at the time, I didn't know. We assumed -- my colleagues

4 and I, we assumed that he was one of the officials there, but I don't

5 really know on what level it was.

6 Q. What was the basis of that assumption?

7 A. Well, sort of he really had a kind of authority with the soldiers,

8 and that made us assume that he was the one who was in charge of it. But

9 we didn't know whether he was the person responsible.

10 Q. Now, you indicated that you -- you mentioned the HVO command a few

11 moments ago. I believe that was in Travnik.

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. When did you go to Travnik?

14 A. Yes, I went there. You mean the HVO command?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. I think that it was the day afterwards. I think it was the day

17 afterwards, after we spent the night at the Novi Travnik Hotel. The next

18 day, we went to the command.

19 Q. Who took you there?

20 A. We were with Mr. Naletilic and other HVO soldiers.

21 Q. What was the purpose of going there?

22 A. We wanted to go to the command in order to get a laissez-passer

23 that would let us to go further into the zone.

24 Q. Whom did you meet there?

25 A. I met several HVO officers. There must have been 10 or 15

Page 2464

1 people. I remember that General Blaskic was there. I don't know if at

2 the time he was a general or whether he was only a colonel. But there was

3 also Mr. Kordic. Among others. Those are the two people that I remember.

4 Q. If you know, what was the position of General or Colonel Blaskic

5 at that time?

6 A. Well, I didn't know his rank, didn't know his rank. For him --

7 for me, he was either a general or colonel. I didn't know.

8 Q. What was his responsibility, as far as you could tell?

9 A. I assumed that he was the sector chief in Travnik.

10 Q. Was Mr. Naletilic present when you met with him?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And just briefly, if you know, what was the title and the function

13 of this person named Kordic?

14 A. He must have been in the HDZ in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15 Q. Can you tell us, if you know, what was the HDZ?

16 A. That was the opposition party to Tudjman.

17 THE INTERPRETER: It was Tudjman's party. Excuse me.

18 Interpreter's correction. It was Tudjman's party.


20 Q. Just for clarification, was this a military organisation or some

21 other organisation, HDZ?

22 A. It was political organisation. It still is.

23 Q. And were you given anything at this meeting with Mr. Blaskic?

24 A. I was given a laissez-passer.

25 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, at this time I'm going to ask that

Page 2465

1 the witness be provided what has been marked as Exhibit P198.1. And I

2 believe that copies have been circulated to the Defence, and I believe

3 that the Registrar also has copies for Your Honours.

4 JUDGE LIU: Are they in the binders we have here?

5 MR. STRINGER: No, Your Honour, they are not. These are

6 additional.

7 Q. Witness R, if you could take a look, it's two sheets of paper

8 which has been placed in front of you. One is an interpretation.

9 Can you describe what this document is?

10 A. I didn't understand the question.

11 Q. Could you just describe -- well, let me ask you this --

12 A. Yes. Yes, this is a laissez-passer which was given by Colonel

13 Tihomir Blaskic. It was issued by the operative zone in Central Bosnia,

14 and it's dated 25 November 1992.

15 Q. Does this document bear the names of yourself and the other

16 persons whom you were travelling with at that time?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And with that document, then, how did you -- if you could tell us

19 just briefly then, once you had that document, how did you use it, what

20 did you do?

21 A. I used it or, rather, we used it, that is, the four journalists,

22 in order to pass the different checkpoints and when we would come close to

23 the front line. Of course, I'm talking about the HVO checkpoints.

24 Q. Okay. Now, if you know, what was the role of this

25 person Naletilic in Novi Travnik at the time you met him there?

Page 2466












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Page 2467

1 A. I didn't know Mr. Naletilic at that time. I never heard him say

2 his name.

3 Q. What was the role -- from what you observed, what was the role he

4 played in Novi Travnik during that period of time?

5 A. Hard to say, hard to say. Without question, he had

6 responsibilities, but I don't know at what level they were and -- or

7 Colonel Blaskic either.

8 Q. Now, I believe you indicated that you spent two or three days

9 there in that area of Travnik and Novi Travnik before leaving. Is that

10 correct?

11 A. That's correct. Excuse me. In the Novi Travnik sector.

12 Q. Yes, that's what I'm referring to. During that period of time,

13 did Mr. Naletilic tell you where he came from?

14 A. During that period, yes, he told me that he came from Siroki

15 Brijeg. And at that time, I didn't know where Siroki Brijeg was.

16 Q. Now, you then left Novi Travnik, and this is presumably still in

17 November. Subsequently at some point, did you travel to Siroki Brijeg?

18 A. Yes, a few months later.

19 Q. Can you tell us what month it was?

20 A. I think that it was in the late spring, at the end of the spring,

21 the beginning of the summer.

22 Q. What was your purpose in going to Siroki Brijeg?

23 A. Mr. Naletilic had told us that if we were going to work in Mostar

24 and we were going to go through Siroki Brijeg, we could come to see him

25 and ask for his assistance, and that's what we did. At least that's what

Page 2468

1 I did myself.

2 Q. So at this time, then, had you decided in fact to work in Mostar

3 or Siroki Brijeg?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. Why had you decided to work in this area?

6 A. For a very practical reason. All the international press was

7 concentrated in Sarajevo at that time, there were a great many journalists

8 there; whereas in Mostar, it had been somewhat forsaken by the press, and

9 I thought it might be interesting for me to concentrate especially on

10 Mostar.

11 Q. Had there been any developments in the Mostar area which drew your

12 attention to that place?

13 A. Yes. I had gone there a few months before, and I realised that

14 there was already a degree of tension between the Croatian and Muslim

15 ethnicities, and there were precursor signs of the clash that was about to

16 come.

17 Q. Prior to your arrival in the Mostar/Siroki Brijeg area, had there

18 been any military activities between the Croats and the Muslims?

19 A. Well, there had been the incidents in Novi Travnik, and also in

20 Mostar I think that there was some problems. There was the attack on the

21 Armija headquarters by the HVO.

22 Q. Had that attack taken place before your arrival?

23 A. Before I arrived.

24 Q. Can you tell us approximately how long before you arrived?

25 A. Just a few days before, because the buildings in which the

Page 2469

1 headquarters were located still had smoke coming out of the windows, so it

2 had really just happened.

3 Q. Now, can you tell us what happened when you arrived in Siroki

4 Brijeg?

5 A. I asked to meet with Mr. Naletilic, and I was told that he wasn't

6 there, that he was in Mostar. They had me wait about two or three hours

7 right near the Park Hotel, and then around 4.00 or 5.00 that same day,

8 someone came to get me and took me to Mr. Naletilic.

9 Q. Before someone came to take you to Mr. Naletilic, where did you

10 spend those three or four hours, where did you wait for that to happen?

11 A. We were in an anti-aerial position that was behind the Park

12 Hotel.

13 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, at this time I would ask the witness

14 be shown Exhibit 26.11, which is a photograph. If we could put that on

15 the ELMO, it might just speed things along, rather than everyone having to

16 reach for it.

17 Q. Now, Witness R, looking at this photograph, can you tell us if you

18 recognise the place that's shown in that photo.

19 A. Yes, that was the Hotel Park.

20 Q. So this is the place that you've just mentioned as where you were

21 waiting after you arrived?

22 A. Yes, that's right. We stayed in the anti-aerial shelter that was

23 behind the hotel, and then we waited on the terrace right in front of it.

24 Q. At some time, did you ever learn what that shelter was used for?

25 A. No.

Page 2470












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2471

1 Q. Now, you indicated that at some point, someone came to take you to

2 Naletilic.

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. Do you recall the name of the person who came to take you?

5 A. I think that it was Ivan Soldo.

6 Q. I believe that earlier in your testimony you mentioned the name of

7 Ivan Soldo in connection with the events in Novi Travnik.

8 A. Yes, I had seen him for the first time at the hotel, Novi Travnik.

9 Q. And is it, then, the same person that came for you that day in

10 Siroki Brijeg?

11 A. When I was in Siroki Brijeg, you mean. Yes, yes.

12 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, at this time I'm going to ask the

13 witness be shown Exhibit 704, which is a document, and not necessarily for

14 the ELMO. And I'm going to ask Witness R if he can simply turn to page 10

15 of the English translation, which he has in front of him.

16 I can say for the record, this is not a document that he has seen

17 before.

18 Q. And I simply wanted to ask you, Witness R, if on page 10 of that

19 document, you see the name of this person, Ivan Soldo?

20 A. Indeed, the fifth one.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 Okay, that's -- we can take that document. We're finished with

23 it.

24 Now, Witness R, when this person, Soldo, came for you, where did

25 he then take you?

Page 2472

1 A. We went exactly to the villa of Mr. Naletilic, which was at Siroki

2 Brijeg.

3 Q. And who was present at the villa when you arrived?

4 A. There were several military and some civilians. I was represented

5 to a elderly man, and I was told that he was a representative of Croats,

6 either at the United Nations or in Canada. I believe in Canada.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Correction. Not United Nations.

8 United States.

9 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, at this time, I ask the witness be

10 shown two photographs, Exhibits 25.5, 25.6. Place 25.5 on the ELMO,

11 please.

12 Q. Witness R, do you recognise the place that's shown in

13 Exhibit 25.5?

14 A. Indeed I do. That is Mr. Naletilic's mansion.

15 Q. And Exhibit 25.6, just briefly.

16 A. Yes. This is the same building, and it faces Siroki Brijeg.

17 Siroki Brijeg is down there.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 Now, at this point, I would like to ask you some questions. First

20 of all, did you go to that place which you've described as the residence

21 of Mr. Naletilic? Did you go to that place on other occasions, beginning

22 with this trip in May of 1993?

23 A. We have had the opportunity to go there, I believe it could have

24 been 8 or maybe 12 times. I can't remember.

25 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you some questions about this period

Page 2473

1 beginning in May, some general questions. First of all, during that

2 period, did you live in this area or did you live elsewhere?

3 A. In the beginning, that is, the first time that I travelled there,

4 in Mostar and Siroki Brijeg, I stayed there for a very short time. I met

5 with Naletilic in the evening. He invited me to a dinner, but I had a

6 meeting in Split. And I had to leave for Split around 9.00 in the

7 evening.

8 Q. Did you return to this Mostar/Siroki Brijeg area subsequently in

9 the months that followed?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How frequently did you return to that area?

12 A. Well, once every 45 days.

13 Q. How long would you stay in the area when you came there?

14 A. Well, it varied but, say, five or six days on the average. At

15 times longer, at times less than that, because I used Siroki Brijeg as a

16 place for which I could go to other places in the area.

17 Q. Why did you use Siroki Brijeg as a place from which you could go

18 elsewhere?

19 A. In a way because it was near Mostar. It was interesting to follow

20 the situation in Mostar at the time. It was a good place. And secondly,

21 because from Siroki Brijeg or Mostar, I could go northward, that is to

22 Central Bosnia.

23 Q. Okay. And did these trips back to the Mostar area continue for

24 the rest of 1993?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2474

1 Q. And during these trips that you would make to Mostar and Siroki

2 Brijeg, did you have the opportunity to meet and speak with Mr. Naletilic?

3 A. Yes, several times.

4 Q. How did you communicate with him?

5 A. It was rather difficult because I do not speak German, so at times

6 there was somebody who could speak some English and they served as

7 interpreter, or we managed with Italian and a sprinkling of French.

8 Besides, I've lived in Italy, so that.

9 Q. Now, did you meet with Mr. Naletilic in places other than Siroki

10 Brijeg?

11 A. I met Mr. Naletilic once in Zagreb, once or twice, and I'd say

12 that was all. Siroki Brijeg, Mostar, and one or two times in Zagreb.

13 Q. Well, did Mr. Naletilic indicate what he was doing in Zagreb when

14 you met him there?

15 A. Yes, I suppose he had some meetings, some appointments, with

16 political people, with people from the HDZ and from people with the

17 Ministry of Defence, such as Mr. Susak in particular.

18 Q. Who was Mr. Susak?

19 A. The Minister of Defence of Croatia.

20 Q. Did you ever see him with Mr. Naletilic in Zagreb?

21 A. Only once. I believe that it was during this accidental meeting

22 at the Intercontinental Hotel. We were sitting at a table, sitting at a

23 table, and Mr. Susak came. And Mr. Naletilic stood up to greet him, and

24 they talked for about five minutes, and then Mr. Naletilic sat down again.

25 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Susak in Herzegovina, the area of

Page 2475












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2476

1 Mostar/Siroki Brijeg?

2 A. I did, yes, once at Siroki Brijeg.

3 Q. Can you be a little more specific about where he was and what he

4 was doing on that occasion?

5 A. I have no idea why Mr. Susak was visiting Siroki Brijeg. I saw

6 him for about five minutes, and that was in the house of the mayor of

7 Siroki Brijeg.

8 Q. What was Mr. Susak's role, if any, in Herzegovina?

9 A. I think that Mr. Susak was very conversant with the situation in

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina and interested in it, since he himself was a

11 Herzegovinian.

12 Q. Did Susak possess any authorities in Herzegovina?

13 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

14 Q. Did Mr. Susak possess any authority in Herzegovina?

15 A. Formally, no.

16 Q. Informally?

17 A. Most certainly.

18 Q. What's the basis of your statement on that?

19 A. According to what the Croatian press had said.

20 Q. And did you speak to anyone yourself on that subject?

21 A. Yes, with colleagues, foreign and Croatian, yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Did you ever speak with Mr. Naletilic about his plans

23 or goals in respect of this region, Mostar/Siroki Brijeg?

24 A. During the conversations I had with Mr. Naletilic, these

25 conversations were very limited in scope, for some mysterious reason. It

Page 2477

1 was really very difficult to know what were Mr. Naletilic's plans. What I

2 can -- well, he was defending the interests of the Croat community in

3 Mostar. But as for his short-term or long-term plans in Herzegovina, I

4 have no idea.

5 Q. Thank you. Did you ever meet a person during this period named

6 "Ivan Andabak"?

7 A. Several times, yes.

8 Q. Can you tell us, who was that man, Ivan Andabak?

9 A. He was an officer in the HVO, recently promoted to general. I

10 don't know what his rank was at the time.

11 Q. Where did he live?

12 A. At Siroki Brijeg.

13 Q. Did you ever have any social dealings with him?

14 A. I met him several times at Siroki Brijeg and in Mostar.

15 Q. Did you ever have lunch with him and his wife?

16 A. Once, yes, went to his place and had lunch with him and his wife.

17 Q. What was his function or his role?

18 A. I think that he was more or less responsible for the logistics of

19 operations taking place elsewhere; that is, that he was responsible for

20 supplies. Perhaps he had some other responsibilities. I don't know.

21 Q. Was he in charge of logistics for any particular military group or

22 unit?

23 MR. MEEK: May it please --

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Counsel Meek. Mr. Meek,

Page 2478

1 microphone, please.

2 MR. MEEK: I apologise. I thought I had put it on. I object to

3 that question, as this witness has just answered that he does not know

4 what Mr. Andabak's role was, and so the form of the question is improper.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, would you please clear up this

6 issue.

7 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, the witness said that he thought

8 Mr. Andabak was responsible for supplies, logistics. I simply asked for

9 what military group or unit. I don't know how I can ask it any more

10 clearly. I think it's a proper question.

11 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Stringer, I think you have been leading rather a

12 lot. And without objections from Defence, I have let you go. But you

13 ought to know how to ask questions of an important and material witness.

14 If you ask him the question following on the answer when he gives a

15 partial answer, and then qualifies it by not knowing too much, the

16 question you should put is, Do you know anything more about this?

17 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll try to question --

18 JUDGE CLARK: You will appreciate that this is a material witness,

19 and we must be fair to both sides. And you know how to ask questions, I

20 suspect, Mr. Stringer.

21 MR. STRINGER: I do, indeed, appreciate that this is a material

22 witness, Your Honour. And I will do my best.

23 JUDGE CLARK: That's all we ask.


25 Q. Witness R, do you know anything more about the role or the

Page 2479

1 function of Mr. Andabak in addition to his role in a logistics capacity?

2 A. No, I think that is my opinion at all, that he was primarily an

3 administrative role, administrative above all, and I think he dealt with

4 logistical matters and personnel and things like that.

5 Q. Do you know what military unit he performed this function for?

6 A. From a moment on when he assumed command in Siroki Brijeg, it was

7 for Naletilic's forces, you know, at Siroki Brijeg.

8 Q. Did you ever see Naletilic and Andabak together?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What was the relationship between the two of them?

11 A. Friendship, I would say.

12 Q. I'm talking about professionally or militarily speaking.

13 A. What was their relationship? I think that Mr. Andabak informed --

14 reported to Mr. Naletilic about the work done.

15 Q. Have you ever heard of something called Kaznjenicka Bojna, or

16 "Convicts' Battalion" in English?

17 A. Yes, Kaznjenicka Bojna.

18 Q. What was the Kaznjenicka Bojna?

19 A. It was an HVO unit headquartered at Siroki Brijeg, and which then

20 became known as the Diverzantski Odred.

21 Q. Who was the commander of the Kaznjenicka Bojna?

22 A. Well, if I refer to what the press said, it was Mr. Naletilic.

23 But I personally have no elements on which I could base this or some other

24 conclusion.

25 Q. Now, Witness R --

Page 2480












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Page 2481

1 MR. STRINGER: Let me just, Mr. President, ask if the witness

2 could be shown Exhibit 262.1.

3 Q. Witness R, again, this is two pages. One is a translation. Do

4 you recognise this?

5 A. Indeed. This is a pass issued by the HVO, and I was issued with

6 it by the person responsible in the Mostar police, allowing me to move

7 around Mostar. Unfortunately, there is no date.

8 Q. Can you tell us, please, how you received this laissez-passer?

9 A. At the time, it was very difficult to move around Mostar because

10 there were all sorts of checkpoints. And I asked Mr. Naletilic if it

11 would be possible to have a laissez-passer to be able to enter Mostar, and

12 who should I go to in order to resolve this formality.

13 And Mr. Naletilic gave me a name, and it was the person who was

14 the commander of the Mostar police, Mr. Jelic, that saw that I could go.

15 He issued me with this, and I could go to Mostar owing to the

16 recommendation of Mr. Naletilic. That is this pass which allowed me to

17 move freely around the Croat part of Mostar.

18 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Naletilic gave you a name. Did he give you

19 anything else?

20 A. No -- oh, yes, yes, yes. I think he spoke to somebody over the

21 telephone, and I think that conversation had to do with this

22 laissez-passer. And after that, he wrote down the name, which I didn't

23 keep, but it was Mr. Jelic's name asking him -- that is, I went to him and

24 was issued that laissez-passer pass.

25 Q. And with this laissez-passer, were you able to move around certain

Page 2482

1 areas in the region?

2 A. Yes, I could move around the Croat part, yes.

3 Q. Were there any areas in which you were not able to go? Within the

4 Croat areas, were there any places where you could not go with the

5 laissez-passer?

6 A. In Mostar?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. I could move freely practically all over except that I could not

9 enter the airport area.

10 Q. Have you ever heard of a place called the Heliodrom?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were you able to gain access to the Heliodrom with the

13 laissez-passer?

14 A. Heliodrom, I do not think -- I do not know whether I would be free

15 to enter it because I never went there.

16 Q. Did you ever -- during the time that you spent in the Mostar area,

17 did you encounter any personnel or weapons of the Republic of Croatia?

18 A. Yes. In that sector, as in other sectors, yes.

19 Q. First of all, were these personnel or materiel that you are

20 referring to?

21 A. As for the materiel, it is much more hard to say. As for the

22 persons, yes, I saw various military from Croatia. And in the press, I

23 saw also some of them came from the 4th Brigade in Split.

24 Q. Thank you. Did you ever go to a place called -- or meet -- I'll

25 start over. Did you ever hear of something called the "ATG Vinko Skrobo"?

Page 2483

1 A. Indeed, yes, I did.

2 Q. Do you know what the ATG Vinko Skrobo was?

3 A. Well, it was an anti-terrorist group, but I think it was -- that

4 was formally, but that was an HVO unit which was deployed in Mostar.

5 There were several ATGs, as they were called at the time. Vinko Skrobo, I

6 think, was a unit which was deployed at a place called "Rondo" in Mostar.

7 Q. Did you ever go to this place, the Rondo in Mostar?

8 A. Yes, on various occasions.

9 Q. Have you ever met a person called "Vinko Martinovic" or "Stela"?

10 A. Yes, two or three times at least.

11 Q. Roughly when did you meet that person?

12 A. The first time, I met him in the -- before the events that we are

13 interested in. At the time, Mr. Martinovic was a member of the HOS, or at

14 least when I met him he had an HOS uniform, but I didn't know who it was.

15 Q. Did you ever meet this person, Martinovic, in the area of the

16 Rondo?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. And what was his function?

19 A. I think that he was responsible or commander of that ATG that you

20 mentioned earlier.

21 Q. Now, did you go to this location, ATG Vinko Skrobo, at any other

22 time with any other people or persons?

23 A. I went twice to the command of that ATG. Yes, well, I met a

24 number of people who were its members, but I didn't know them.

25 Q. Was Stela present every time you went there?

Page 2484












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Page 2485

1 A. Oh, no, not at all.

2 Q. Did you ever go there with any HVO or military personnel?

3 A. At times, yes. And at times when I would be in Mostar, when I was

4 issued with this pass, who resolved all my problems with the military

5 police or HVO units which were deployed on the ground, then no.

6 Q. Did you ever go there with Andabak?

7 A. Once, yes, that's true.

8 Q. What was the purpose of that?

9 A. I couldn't answer that question. I was with Andabak on that day.

10 We were walking around the -- making a tour of the front lines, and we

11 went to that ATG.

12 Q. Roughly, if you know, the general time frame in which you went

13 there with Mr. Andabak?

14 A. Well, it was in the fall, in the fall, a few weeks before the

15 destruction of the Stari Most, the Old Bridge.

16 Q. Now, Witness R, we've reached the end of your

17 examination-in-chief, and at this time I'd like to ask you, if you would,

18 to look around the courtroom and tell us if you see either of the persons

19 that you've testified about, either Mr. Naletilic or Mr. Martinovic, in

20 the courtroom.

21 A. I see Mr. Naletilic, who is on the right, and Mr. Martinovic is to

22 my left.

23 MR. STRINGER: Your Honour, may the record reflect that the

24 witness has identified the accused. Thank you.

25 Mr. President, no further questions.

Page 2486

1 JUDGE LIU: Cross-examination. Defence counsel for Naletilic.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Again I

3 would like to ask of Mr. Usher to please lower the ELMO so that I can have

4 a clear view of the witness. Thank you.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. I am the Defence counsel

7 for the accused Mladen Naletilic, and I'm going to ask some questions of

8 you, which I'm going to try to focus so as to make them as succinct as

9 possible, due to the time that we have left and everything else. So I

10 thank you in advance for your cooperation.

11 Siroki Brijeg is a large city?

12 A. No. No, it's a small town just west of Mostar.

13 Q. Does it have more than 1.000 inhabitants? And I'm referring only

14 to the town itself, not the whole municipality.

15 A. Well, you're asking me too much there. I think there were more

16 than a thousand people, yes.

17 Q. My apologies. I am just asking questions that I assumed you may

18 be able to answer, so please don't get upset if I go too far in my

19 assumptions.

20 A. Well, I could have asked the mayor of Siroki Brijeg for that

21 information. I would have -- I must have asked him, in fact, but I don't

22 remember what he answered.

23 Q. There's a reason why I ask you this question. This is

24 cross-examination, and I was just trying to get to the main point.

25 My main point is: Do you think that everybody in this town knew

Page 2487

1 each other and sort of socialised?

2 A. Yes, I think so. I myself come from a small town. Everybody

3 knows everybody.

4 Q. This is precisely the point that I was trying to make for the

5 Trial Chamber. This is why we're here, in order to try to clarify matters

6 so that we can arrive at the truth.

7 Mr. Susak, about whom my learned colleague asked you in the

8 examination-in-chief, was born in Siroki Brijeg. Did you know that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. His parents' house was there and also his own family house was

11 built there. Do you know that?

12 A. That's what I was told, yes.

13 Q. He went to school in Siroki Brijeg, including the secondary

14 school. Did you also hear that?

15 A. Yes, part of his studies were in fact done there in Siroki Brijeg.

16 Q. Did you hear about or did you know from personal knowledge that a

17 number of persons like my client grew up together with him?

18 A. I could imagine that would be the case, yes.

19 Q. Did Mr. Susak come to visit his mother, his family, and to spend

20 some holidays in his hometown, or did you hear about it? He would come in

21 the summer or the winter for holidays?

22 A. Yes, I know that. I know all of that, yes. I was told.

23 Q. So during his visits, during all his holidays and vacations, he

24 met with his friends and acquaintances, talked to them in restaurants and

25 in the Park Hotel. Did you see him walking around in town and talking to

Page 2488

1 his friends?

2 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. President. I've just read the last

3 question of counsel, which actually reads more like testimony to me, and I

4 would simply ask if the questions could be a bit more like questions in

5 nature, rather than statements about what any person did or didn't do in

6 Siroki Brijeg. Thank you.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I think the question is okay, but

8 you don't need to have a description of the situations before your

9 question. Thank you.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will pay

11 attention to that. But in cross-examination, I'm trying to frame a

12 question in a wider way so that I can get a shorter answer, because this

13 is cross-examination rather than examination-in-chief. But I do

14 acknowledge your intervention, and I will make necessary adjustments.

15 Q. Can you tell me, please, when exactly, if you recall, were you in

16 the house where you met Mr. Naletilic -- or where you met Mr. Naletilic?

17 A. The first time?

18 Q. Yes, what year? And in Siroki Brijeg.

19 A. Well, I said to the Court it was at the beginning -- well, in the

20 summer of 1992.

21 Q. My question is, for the record, you said 1992, but I'm more

22 interested in 1993. Would you be able to recall the month? Was it April,

23 May, June, July, if you can recall, in 1993 when you first came to that

24 house?

25 A. Must have been June or in July, but I'm not absolutely sure.

Page 2489












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Page 2490

1 Q. Was the house completed at that time?

2 A. Most of the major work had been done, yes.

3 Q. Can you now tell me, please, when you were in Siroki Brijeg, how

4 many different HVO units were there in Siroki Brijeg, if you know,

5 deployed there?

6 A. In Siroki Brijeg, I really couldn't say. Aside from the unit in

7 which Mr. Andabak was a member, I don't see any others. But it doesn't

8 mean that there weren't any others.

9 Q. Can you now please tell me, if you know, again, do you know what

10 types of units were there? Were there small units? Were there any

11 special-purpose units, the ones that you know of?

12 A. I think you're speaking about the units there in Siroki Brijeg.

13 Is that right?

14 Q. Yes, yes.

15 A. As far as I know, I don't think there were other ones there, aside

16 from the Convicts' Battalion.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence of

18 Mr. Naletilic has checked all the facts that we care to check in our

19 cross-examination. Thank you.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

21 Mr. Seric.

22 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Seric:

24 Q. [Interpretation] I am Branko Seric, and I represent Mr. Vinko

25 Martinovic.

Page 2491

1 You said that you were -- you went to see one anti-terrorist unit

2 with General Andabak. Can you tell us which unit that was, if you can

3 recall?

4 A. It was Vinko something. I don't remember.

5 Q. Could it have been Benko Penavic?

6 A. I know Benko Penavic. The problem, you see, is that there were

7 several there.

8 Q. Let's cut it short. Was that unit under the command of Vinko

9 Martinovic when you were there with General Andabak?

10 A. When we went with Mr. Andabak, we visited several command posts of

11 the ATGs, and we also went to a command post which was under the

12 responsibility of Mr. Naletilic.

13 Q. You said that on several occasions, you went to Mostar. Did you

14 go to coffee bars there?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were there armed soldiers there? Were there any incidents in

17 those coffee bars?

18 A. In all the Mostar cafes, the soldiers were armed, but I never saw

19 any incident in the Mostar bars.

20 Q. Again, if you can remember, on 8th, 9, and 10 August, you gave

21 statements to the Tribunal investigators. Do you recall your statement?

22 A. I remember, yes.

23 Q. Do you remember that you said that the situation in the city was

24 dangerous and that there was a prevailing atmosphere of civil war?

25 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

Page 2492

1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. No further questions.

2 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination?

3 MR. STRINGER: No, Mr. President.

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE CLARK: Yes, I have a couple that I would like you to

6 clarify if you can. I'm a little confused about all these names.

7 Were any of the important people identified, Mr. Kordic -- I'm

8 going to go through the names mentioned. When you met him, was he in

9 uniform?

10 What uniform was that?

11 JUDGE LIU: Witness, you have to answer the question in words, not

12 in any body languages like nodding, for the sake of the record.

13 A. Yes, Your Honour.

14 Mr. Kordic, Mr. Kordic was in a uniform -- well, he was in

15 military fatigues. It didn't have any insignia.

16 JUDGE CLARK: I think you mentioned something about HDZ.

17 A. Yes, that's a political organisation, a political party,

18 absolutely.

19 JUDGE CLARK: So if I understand you correctly, so Mr. Kordic,

20 when you saw him, was in army fatigues without insignia. So you couldn't

21 identify which army he belonged to?

22 You have to say something.

23 A. Yes. That's right, yes.

24 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Blaskic, was he in uniform?

25 A. Mr. Blaskic was also in uniform.

Page 2493












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2494

1 JUDGE CLARK: Was that the same uniform without insignia, or could

2 you identify to which army he belonged?

3 A. He had HVO insignia.

4 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Naletilic, did you ever see him wearing military

5 clothes?

6 A. I saw him in a fatigue jacket. I didn't really see him dressed

7 head to foot in a military uniform.

8 JUDGE CLARK: And again, was this a jacket without insignia?

9 A. Sometimes he had insignia, and sometimes he didn't.

10 JUDGE CLARK: Could you identify the insignia when you saw it?

11 A. HVO.


13 And then we had the gentleman -- let me see -- Mr. Susak, who

14 apparently is a native of this small town, whose name I dare not

15 pronounce, who you described as the Minister of Defence for Croatia, the

16 Croatian Republic, I take it, the separate country of Croatia.

17 Mr. Susak, was he a military man or a civilian?

18 A. He was a civilian. He was a minister.

19 JUDGE CLARK: But I take it he never wore a uniform.

20 A. I never saw him in a uniform.


22 Mr. Andabak, what was the situation in relation to Mr. Andabak,

23 again, another native of Siroki Brijeg, I think?

24 A. I think that he was from Siroki Brijeg.

25 JUDGE CLARK: Yes. That's what I understood the Defence

Page 2495

1 cross-examination to indicate. Did he wear a uniform?

2 A. General Andabak? Yes, yes, he did.

3 JUDGE CLARK: And what uniform was that?

4 A. That was green, with HVO insignia.

5 JUDGE CLARK: And the second accused in this case, Mr. Martinovic,

6 when you met him in Mostar on the few occasions that you met him - and I

7 think at the cafe and other places - did you ever see him in uniform?

8 A. Yes, I saw him in uniform several times. Yes, I did. I'm sorry.

9 I also saw him in civilian clothes.

10 JUDGE CLARK: You described having lunch with him and his wife.

11 Was that the same uniform as Mr. Andabak and --

12 A. You're speaking about Mr. Martinovic or Mr. Andabak?

13 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Martinovic. You said you saw him in uniform and

14 in civilian clothes, and I was just asking you: Was the uniform that he

15 wore similar in any way to the one worn by Mr. Andabak?

16 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

17 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. I just wanted to get the uniforms

18 right.

19 Just one last question. As you spent some time in Croatia, is the

20 uniform of the official Croatian army significantly different from the

21 HVO?

22 A. The uniforms of the HVO or the Armija people, all those uniforms,

23 really very much alike, all of them. You really had to look very

24 carefully at what insignia was being worn in order to know whether this

25 was Croats from Croatia, or Croats from the HVO, or even Armija soldiers.

Page 2496

1 JUDGE CLARK: I understood you to say at one stage, in response to

2 a question that was posed by Mr. Stringer for the Prosecution, that you

3 saw Croatian army personnel in parts of Central Bosnia.

4 A. Yes, I saw him. I described him. It was described by other

5 people who were with me.

6 JUDGE CLARK: And are you satisfied that you could make a

7 distinction between the army personnel from the official army of Croatia

8 from that of the HVO?

9 A. From the time that I asked the questions of the soldiers to find

10 out what unit they were in, to say exactly what units they were in, at

11 that point I could say whether they were from the HVO or from the Croatian

12 army.

13 JUDGE CLARK: So you have no doubt about that?

14 A. No, I have no doubt.

15 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.

16 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge Clark's questions? Yes,

17 Mr. Stringer.

18 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, just one brief question that may be

19 of assistance.

20 Re-examined by Mr. Stringer:

21 Q. If you can, Witness R, describe the difference between the HVO

22 patch and the HV patch worn by soldiers of the Republic of Croatia.

23 A. They were almost identical. The only inscription under it was

24 different. For the Croatian army from Croatia, the Republic of Croatia,

25 there was an "HV". And for those from Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was an

Page 2497

1 "HVO". But the insignia was almost exactly the same.

2 MR. STRINGER: Nothing further, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I believe that there is

5 some interest for the Defence in this question, and this is really not as

6 kind of a response to the questions asked by either Her Honour or my

7 learned friend.

8 Re-cross-examined by Mr. Seric:

9 Q. Let me ask you something else. Since you specialised in military

10 analysis, the use of military units, the size of units, its

11 maneuverability, its covering of certain terrain and the issues of

12 subordination and so on, can we agree that you specialise in these issues

13 and can discuss them?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric, I think there should be an end to the

17 questioning of the witness. When I asked whether there were any questions

18 out of Judge Clark's questions, that means you have to concentrate within

19 the scope of the questions asked by Judge Clark. It's not to give you

20 another chance for the cross-examination, you have to bear this in mind.

21 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies. I'm not

22 seeking to have the last word here. You will definitely have it. But the

23 questions of Her Honour Judge Clark were so to the point and so surgically

24 correct and pointed to the essence of military analysis that I felt that

25 this was a necessary question to ask to make as a point.

Page 2498

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness. Thank you for helping us by

2 giving the evidence. The usher will show you out when he pulls the blinds

3 down.

4 Mr. Stringer, do you have any documents to handle at this stage?

5 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. At this time the Prosecutor

6 tenders Exhibit P198.1 and Exhibit P262.1. Thank you.

7 JUDGE LIU: And those documents are tendered under seal, I

8 suppose.

9 MR. STRINGER: Yes, thank you, Mr. President, that's right,

10 because they do name the witness. They should be under seal.

11 JUDGE LIU: May I know the initial response from the Defence

12 counsel?

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies, but the

15 Exhibit 5 -- I don't know exactly the number. Unfortunately, the Defence

16 did not have an opportunity to see it, due to all the difficulties which I

17 have just described. My binders are at home, are being analysed, so I

18 don't have them handy here. So I cannot review them right now. But if

19 you allow me until tomorrow morning, after I've had a chance to review the

20 document tomorrow morning, early, first thing, I can tell you whether we

21 have any objections to it or not.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Seric.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] We have no objection to the

25 introduction of this -- to the admission of these documents.

Page 2499

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

2 We'll adjourn until 9.30 tomorrow morning.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

4 4.01 p.m., to be reconvened on

5 Wednesday, the 19th day of September, 2000,

6 at 9.30 a.m.