Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2804

1 Monday, 24 September 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- On resuming at 10.20 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case

7 Number IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, we are very sorry about the delay of the witness

9 this morning. The registrar has been instructed to look into this matter

10 and give us an explanation. This kind of thing should never happen to us

11 again because we don't have much time to lose.

12 Mr. Scott, your next witness.

13 MR. SCOTT: Good morning, Your Honour. Yes, we will call the next

14 witness out of turn. Mr. Bos will be handling that witness, and he will

15 give the particulars in terms of protective measures and the way forward,

16 I hope.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos.

18 MR. BOS: Good morning, Mr. President. The next witness is a

19 witness who has also requested some protective measures. He requested a

20 pseudonym, and he requested facial distortion. I think it has already

21 been set up. So if there's no objection from the Defence, I hope these

22 protective measures can be granted.

23 JUDGE LIU: It seems to me that there are no objections from

24 Defence counsel.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, thank you.

Page 2805

1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE LIU: So the protective measures have been granted by this

3 Chamber.

4 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym for this witness is Witness T.

6 Exhibit Number PW21.

7 MR. BOS: Your Honours, while we are waiting for the witness, the

8 witness will testify about paragraphs 14 to 17 in the indictment, which go

9 to the superior authority of the accused, as well as paragraph 29 of the

10 indictment relating to Count 1.

11 [The witness entered court]


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

15 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

16 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

17 accordance with the paper shown by the usher.

18 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

19 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Please sit down.

21 Examined by Mr. Bos:

22 Q. Witness, can you move the screen a bit, because I'm not able to

23 see you, Witness.

24 Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness come closer to the microphone,

Page 2806

1 please.

2 MR. BOS:

3 Q. Can you move a little bit closer to the microphone, please.

4 Witness, the Trial Chamber has granted some protective measures

5 for you. They have granted the measures of pseudonym and facial

6 distortion. Now, in order for the protective measure of a pseudonym to

7 be -- for that protective measure, you're going to be shown a paper, which

8 the usher has right in front of you, and the paper shows your name and the

9 letter of the pseudonym you're going to get. You see it says "Witness T,"

10 and then is that your name which is underneath there? Could you just

11 confirm without mentioning your name.

12 A. It is.

13 Q. Thank you very much. So in the course of my examination, I'll be

14 referring to you as "Witness T." Do you understand that?

15 A. I do.

16 Q. Witness T, where are you from?

17 A. Sarajevo.

18 Q. What is your ethnic origin?

19 A. Muslim.

20 Q. Witness, were you ever a member of the KB Krusko?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you remember when you became a member of that unit,

23 approximately?

24 A. In the beginning of '93 until '96.

25 Q. And where was this unit stationed?

Page 2807

1 A. In the beginning, at the Heliodrom, and then in Mostar.

2 Q. And who commanded that unit in the beginning?

3 A. Juka Prazina.

4 Q. Do you know the ethnic origin of Mr. Juka Prazina?

5 A. Muslim.

6 Q. And do you know where he is from?

7 A. Sarajevo.

8 Q. Did this man, Juka Prazina, did he have anything to do with the

9 fact that you joined this unit, this unit KB Krusko?

10 A. I didn't understand the question.

11 Q. Well, let me try to rephrase it. The man you've been referring to

12 as "Juka Prazina," was he one of the reasons why you joined this unit?

13 A. Yes, he was.

14 Q. Could you briefly explain how it came about that you joined this

15 unit, KB Krusko?

16 A. It happened when we came out of Sarajevo to deblock the city. We

17 came out as special units of the BH army, and then a conflict broke out on

18 Mount Igman between Zuka and Juka, as we say - I don't know why - so that

19 we ended up in Mostar as members of the Convicts' Battalion.

20 Q. This man, Juka, did you also serve under this man in Sarajevo?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And so you were saying that there was a conflict which broke out

23 on Mount Igman between Juka and another man named "Zuka." And as a result

24 of that conflict, did Juka leave Mount Igman; is that correct?

25 A. It is.

Page 2808

1 Q. And you followed him?

2 A. I did.

3 Q. Now, you said that you joined the KB Krusko which was stationed at

4 the Heliodrom. I'm going to show you a photograph which is marked as

5 Exhibit 20.8.

6 MR. BOS: I'd like to ask if this can be put on the ELMO, please.

7 Q. Can you see this photograph, Witness? Witness T, do you recognise

8 this photograph, what's depicted on this photograph?

9 A. I do.

10 Q. What is it?

11 A. This is the Heliodrom barracks.

12 Q. And do you recognise the building on this photograph in which you

13 were stationed at the Heliodrom barracks?

14 A. In the first building to the left.

15 MR. BOS: Can he be given a pointer so he can point on the

16 photograph which building he's referring to? Yes. You can put the

17 photograph under the ELMO.

18 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

19 MR. BOS:

20 Q. So you're depicting the building on the left-hand side, right in

21 front of the building with the red roof. Is that the building you were

22 staying in?

23 A. That's right, yes.

24 Q. Now, Witness, you said you were a member of a unit called the "KB

25 Krusko." What does "KB" stand for?

Page 2809

1 A. "Convicts' Battalion."

2 Q. Do you know who the commander of the Convicts' Battalion was?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. Tell us his name.

5 A. Tuta, Naletilic. Mladen, Tuta, Naletilic.

6 Q. This Convicts' Battalion, did it have any other units except for

7 the unit you joined, except for the unit Krusko, if you know?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you try to tell us which other units you are aware of, and

10 maybe also who commanded those units.

11 A. Kaznjenicka Bojna-Krusko; commander, Juka Prazina. Stela, then,

12 Vinko Martinovic, Stela. I think it was called "Mrmak." And then there

13 was Baja Martinovic -- not Martinovic -- Baja. And there were some others

14 whose names I really don't know.

15 Q. Let's go to the first one you said. You say a unit called the KB

16 Mrmak, which was commanded by a man named "Stela." Is that correct?

17 A. It is.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Will the witness speak out, please.

19 MR. BOS:

20 Q. Did you ever meet this man?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where did you meet Stela?

23 A. In passing, around the town, coffee shops and the like.

24 Q. Do you know where the headquarters was of this unit called KB

25 Mrmak?

Page 2810

1 A. It was at Liska, I think it is called, a park Liska, and I know

2 there was a pharmacy nearby and a school.

3 Q. Which town was this?

4 A. Mostar.

5 Q. Now, you also referred to a man named "Baja." Do you know which

6 unit he commanded?

7 A. ATG. Don't know what his name was. Can't remember.

8 Q. Is "Baja" a nickname?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. So you don't know any other names for this person except "Baja"?

11 A. Baja Milicevic.

12 Q. And do you recall any other units or commanders of units from the

13 Convicts' Battalion?

14 A. There were some other units. I know a nickname here and there,

15 but I don't know the names. There was something which was called Tango or

16 Tanger or something that sounded like that. And -- I don't know. In

17 Mostar, I don't really know any other names.

18 Q. This "Tanger," this referred also to a unit in Mostar or to a

19 commander in a unit in Mostar?

20 A. The name of the commander of the unit in Mostar.

21 Q. Now, Witness T, when you said that you joined the KB Krusko in

22 early 1993, how many members did this KB Krusko have at that time?

23 A. About 90. There were men and women and children.

24 Q. You said that the unit was -- included men, women, and children?

25 A. That's right.

Page 2811

1 Q. And what about the ethnic composition of this group?

2 A. Members came from all ethnic groups.

3 Q. When you started to join this unit, were you given a uniform?

4 A. Yes, camouflage uniforms.

5 Q. And did the uniform also have a patch?

6 A. HVO in the early days, in the beginning. After that, ATG,

7 Convicts' Battalion, Krusko.

8 Q. Were you issued a weapon?

9 A. We had our own weapons that we had brought with us. And later on,

10 individuals were issued with other weapons.

11 Q. Now, what were your duties in the KB Krusko in the beginning?

12 A. At first, we provided the front lines for a while, and then I

13 became a driver.

14 Q. So if we're talking about the beginning of '93, this was the

15 confrontation line against the Serbs. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You said that after that, you became a driver. What did you

18 transport?

19 A. Everything: people to front lines, food, and wherever one had to

20 go.

21 Q. You said that you transported food. Where would you get that

22 food?

23 A. We had food at Heliodrom, but we additionally also provided some

24 food because there was a Caritas depot at Siroki and there was a warehouse

25 at Siroki within the Convicts' Battalion from where we got food and juices

Page 2812












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2813

1 and other necessities.

2 Q. You're saying you got food from the Caritas warehouses in Siroki.

3 Is that Siroki Brijeg?

4 A. It is.

5 Q. And for whom was this food, if you got food from there? To whom

6 would you deliver that food?

7 A. At first, to those 90 soldiers, men, women and children.

8 Q. And later?

9 A. And later, I went to Croatia, taking it to the wounded and those

10 who were not wounded who were in Promajna, that is, in Juka Prazina's

11 house.

12 Q. But you would always -- not wounded. Would it still be delivering

13 to soldiers or also to civilians?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. "Yes" meaning also to civilians?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, in order to get that food from the Caritas warehouses, did

18 you need a paper or could you just go there and take the food out of the

19 warehouses?

20 A. I had to have a document which was signed by Juka Prazina. He

21 would make a list on numerical strength, and that is how we were issued

22 those documents. And later on, other commanders.

23 Q. Now, you said that you also got food from a warehouse which was

24 stationed at the headquarters, at the KB headquarters. Where was this?

25 A. We call that "Tobacco Factory," because that is where it was at

Page 2814

1 Siroki Brijeg.

2 Q. Now, you've testified that the commander of the KB was Mladen

3 Naletilic. Did you ever see this man when you would collect food from the

4 headquarters?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you describe how he looked like?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Please give us a description.

9 A. Medium height, about 60 to 70 kilograms, hair grey or, rather,

10 greying, a beard, and he always wore glasses.

11 Q. Did you ever speak with Mr. Naletilic?

12 A. [No translation]

13 Q. Sorry, we couldn't hear the answer.

14 A. No.

15 Q. And how did people refer to Mr. Naletilic?

16 A. "Tuta," and my commander of late began to call him "Stari."

17 Q. When you refer to your commander, whom do you refer to?

18 A. Bozo Sajin.

19 Q. Did you see Tuta also on other spots than just the headquarters?

20 Did you ever see him somewhere else?

21 A. I used to see him around Siroki, then once at the Heliodrom - I

22 don't remember when - and then at a funeral of one of the fallen

23 combatants. I used to see him -- I saw him on a number of occasions.

24 Q. Let's first go to this funeral of a combatant. Do you remember

25 whose funeral that was?

Page 2815

1 A. No, I cannot remember. I don't know who it was that was killed.

2 I know it was at Masline.

3 Q. You also testified that you once saw Tuta at the Heliodrom. Is

4 that correct?

5 A. It is.

6 Q. With whom did you see him there, and what was he doing?

7 A. He passed by the building that we were quartered and went to the

8 other end of the barracks, where the main -- what do you call it? Where

9 the command was. I don't know whether he went to the command, but he

10 walked towards the command.

11 Q. Did you see him with a particular person on that day?

12 A. There was Juka Prazina and there were some others whom I do not

13 know.

14 Q. What was the relationship between Tuta and Juka Prazina, if you

15 know?

16 A. I believe they were good.

17 Q. Were they friends?

18 A. Yes, I think so.

19 Q. Witness, have you ever heard of a man named "Andabak"?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues]

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who is he; what was his function?

24 A. He was Tuta's deputy.

25 Q. And did you ever see Mr. Andabak?

Page 2816

1 A. I did.

2 Q. Where would you see him?

3 A. I saw him at Siroki Brijeg and in Juka Prazina's flat in Mostar.

4 Q. Did you ever speak with Mr. Andabak?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Now, Witness, do you recall that at one moment in Mostar there was

7 an attack on the Vranica building? Do you recall that incident?

8 A. I know the whole story, but I wasn't in Mostar at the time.

9 Q. Do you know whether the KB Krusko was involved in this attack?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. And Mr. Juka Prazina, was he also involved in this attack?

12 A. He was.

13 Q. You stated that you yourself were not involved because you were

14 not in Mostar; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You've stated earlier on that at one point in time, the KB Krusko

17 was relocated from the Heliodrom to Mostar. Is that correct?

18 A. It is.

19 Q. Where did you move in Mostar?

20 A. Well, we moved next to the stadium, two or three buildings nearby.

21 Q. The whole unit moved in one particular place?

22 A. Yes, those left of us.

23 Q. How many there were left of you?

24 A. About 30, 35 men, but it changed day in and day out.

25 Q. Where had all the others gone, because you testified that you

Page 2817

1 started with about 90 people?

2 A. Some went to Grude. Others were wounded. Two, I believe, were

3 killed. Yes, that's right, two got killed. They went wherever. Those

4 who wanted to go and could fend for themselves, they left.

5 Q. Were you just free to go when you were a member of that unit?

6 A. Yes, if Juka agreed to help us, or some other of the more

7 important people.

8 Q. So it depended on the commander of the unit whether you could

9 actually leave the unit if you wanted to?

10 A. If he was willing to help us to go somewhere abroad.

11 Q. You left the Heliodrom. Do you know why you had to leave the

12 Heliodrom, why you moved to another place?

13 A. I don't know exactly. There were all sorts of stories around.

14 But the majority of us were Muslims, and so there were some rumours to

15 that effect, so that I don't know the real result.

16 Q. While you were at the Heliodrom, did you ever see that other

17 barracks were used or did you notice that prisoners would also be kept in

18 the Heliodrom?

19 A. The Heliodrom was used for that purpose. I don't know about

20 others.

21 Q. Who were taken prisoner in the Heliodrom?

22 A. Civilians mostly.

23 Q. And what ethnicity had these civilians?

24 A. Muslims mostly.

25 Q. You testified that you moved out of the Heliodrom and moved into

Page 2818

1 Mostar. Juka Prazina, did he also move out?

2 A. Yes, but a day or two later, he went somewhere, and we did not see

3 him again. After a day or two, a couple of days, I don't know exactly.

4 Q. You never saw him again?

5 A. No, I didn't.

6 Q. Do you recall around which period of time approximately you

7 actually moved out of the Heliodrom?

8 A. I cannot remember the exact date. It could be early '94 or maybe

9 end of '93. I'm not sure.

10 Q. At the time that you left the Heliodrom, and you testified that

11 Juka had left -- first of all, how did you feel about the fact that Juka

12 had left the unit? How did you feel about it, because you actually joined

13 the unit because you followed him?

14 A. The majority of us felt very down, indeed, because we felt

15 betrayed.

16 Q. At that time, did your unit still fight the Serbs?

17 A. At the time, when we were in Mostar, we did not fight against the

18 Serbs.

19 Q. Did you fight against anyone else?

20 A. Yes, we did, against the Muslims.

21 Q. You are a Muslim yourself, and you had to fight the Muslims. Why

22 did you do this?

23 A. That was my livelihood.

24 Q. How did you feel about it?

25 A. Terrible.

Page 2819

1 Q. Did you try to escape because of this fact?

2 A. I did on a couple of occasions, but since my -- members of my

3 family were in Croatia, I had nowhere to go.

4 Q. You said that the members of your family were in Croatia. How did

5 they come there?

6 A. They got there as refugees in '91.

7 Q. At the time that you were in Mostar, they were still in -- as

8 refugees in Croatia?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, during the time that you were a member of the KB Krusko, did

11 you ever -- were you ever issued permits?

12 A. Yes, a number of times.

13 Q. What was the purpose of these permits?

14 A. Free exit from Herceg-Bosna to Croatia.

15 Q. And from whom would you get these permits?

16 A. My commanders.

17 Q. Is it correct, Witness T, that you have saved some of these

18 permits and that you handed these permits to the Office of the

19 Prosecution?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. BOS: I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit 242. And

22 for the information of the Judges, I've made a set of copies, and also a

23 set of copies for the Defence. These documents are also in the

24 17 binders, but just for the sake of efficiency, I have made some copies

25 for use here today.

Page 2820

1 Q. Now, Witness, I would like to go over the various permits that you

2 still had in your possession, and I would like you first to look at

3 Exhibit P242. And I don't know if you have that document in front of

4 you. I think it starts with the English translation and then behind it

5 there will be the original version, followed by a French version. Some of

6 these permits will also be translated into French, not all of them, but

7 the majority are.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, Mr. Prosecutor, is the exhibit under

9 seal?

10 MR. BOS: All of these exhibits will be tendered under seal, yes.

11 Q. Witness, you have the first permit in front of you. Maybe you can

12 look at the original version, which is a few pages later on. Now, what is

13 the date on this permit, Witness? And please don't refer to your name,

14 because otherwise it would defeat the purpose of your protection.

15 A. The 2nd of February, 1993, until the 13th of February, 1993.

16 Q. Is it the 2nd or the 6th of February?

17 A. The 2nd of February.

18 Q. Very well. And what was the purpose of this permit?

19 A. A visit to the relatives.

20 Q. And where did you travel to?

21 A. They were at Orebic, so I went to Orebic.

22 Q. Where is Orebic, in which state is that?

23 A. Croatia, near Dubrovnik.

24 Q. Let's look at the persons who signed this permit, and let's first

25 look at the left-hand corner. It's not really a signature there, but

Page 2821












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2822

1 there's a man mentioned there by the name of "Miljenko Lasic." Do you

2 know who he is?

3 A. As far as I know, he was the supreme commander of the HVO. He was

4 a commander, like a minister. I don't know exactly.

5 Q. In the right-hand corner, there's a signature. Do you recognise

6 whose signature that is?

7 A. I can read it out. I don't know the person.

8 Q. Well, could you please read it out?

9 A. "Zelenika."

10 Q. Now, if you turn to the next page - it's probably there at the

11 back of the permit - there's a little note there which says -- well, maybe

12 you can read it out and explain what this note is for.

13 A. When I was returning from my visit to my family, I wrote where

14 Juka's house was, near Baske Vode, Promajna, because I didn't know where

15 Promajna was or where Baske Vode were.

16 Q. So it was a personal note to remember where to go?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Let's move on to the next exhibit, which is Exhibit P303. This

19 one does not have a French translation. Do you have it in front of you?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. Maybe you can look at the original. What's the date on this

22 permit?

23 A. 19 April 1993 until 26th of April, 1993.

24 Q. What was the purpose of this permit?

25 A. Visit to my family.

Page 2823

1 Q. And by whom is the permit signed? Let's first look in the

2 left-hand corner.

3 A. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta.

4 Q. And in the right-hand corner?

5 A. Jusuf Prazina, Juka.

6 Q. Let's move on to the next exhibit, which is P435. And maybe if

7 you can look at the original version. What is the date on this exhibit,

8 on this permit?

9 A. 7th June 1993 until 7th July 1993.

10 Q. And do you recall what the purpose was of this permit?

11 A. Visit to the wounded in Split and then Promajna.

12 Q. And who signed this permit?

13 A. Miljenko Lasic.

14 Q. And the signature on the right-hand corner, whose signature is

15 that?

16 A. Lasic, I suppose, I think.

17 Q. Well, let's move on to the next exhibit, Exhibit 501. Do you have

18 that in front of you?

19 A. [No interpretation]

20 Q. What's the date on this exhibit, on this permit?

21 A. Issued on July 7th, 1993.

22 Q. And what was the purpose of this permit?

23 A. Well, I received this in Promajna to be able to enter Herceg-Bosna

24 and to move freely on the territory of Herceg-Bosna.

25 Q. Who signed this permit? Let's first look at the left-hand corner

Page 2824

1 again.

2 A. It was signed by Valentin Coric.

3 Q. Do you know who Valentin Coric is?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And do you recognise the signature on the right-hand corner?

6 A. No, I don't.

7 Q. Okay. Let's move on to Exhibit 507. What's the date on this

8 permit?

9 A. 8th July 1993 until 8th of August, 1993.

10 Q. Now, just to clarify: If it says from 8 July to 8 August '93,

11 what does that mean? Does that mean that the permit was valid until that

12 period or that you actually needed to be back on that particular date, on

13 the 8th of August?

14 A. We had to return by that date.

15 Q. And would you always return on that particular date?

16 A. No, not always.

17 Q. Could it be later?

18 A. Yes, because I was given another permit in Promajna so I could get

19 in.

20 Q. Right. But if you would go over the date of 8 August, you would

21 require another permit; is that what you're saying?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, what was the purpose of this permit?

24 A. Visiting the wounded.

25 Q. And who signed this permit, if you look at the left-hand corner

Page 2825

1 first?

2 A. Ivan Andabak.

3 Q. And do you recognise the signature on the right-hand corner?

4 A. Lasic. Miljenko, Mica, Lasic.

5 Q. That's the person you identified before; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Finally, could we look at Exhibit 659. What's the date on this

8 permit?

9 A. 24th of October.

10 Q. What was the purpose of this permit?

11 A. Visiting family.

12 Q. Now, let's, again, look at the person who signed this permit,

13 person there in the left-hand corner. It's a bit difficult to read.

14 A. Miljenko.

15 Q. Do you know who the person is?

16 A. No, I don't.

17 Q. And whose signature is on the right-hand corner?

18 A. Bozo Sajin.

19 Q. Who is that?

20 A. He replaced Juka Prazina when Juka fled.

21 Q. So is it fair to conclude that on the 23rd of October, Juka

22 Prazina no longer commanded the unit?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Let's move to the second page, because, again, there's some notes

25 on the second page.

Page 2826

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you read out what's written there and why it is written

3 there. Can you explain?

4 A. Well, it served as a piece of paper which I had handy with me. It

5 had words of greetings which I had to convey from Munib to the two

6 persons.

7 Q. These persons would live in Croatia, and you would have to convey

8 a message to them. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, it is correct.

10 MR. BOS: Now, just for the information of the Trial Chamber,

11 there's also a French translation of this permit. But unfortunately, the

12 name on the French translation reads -- on the left-hand corner reads

13 Miljenko Lasic. I think that that is a mistake because, as we can see on

14 the original, it's not Miljenko Lasic who actually signed this document.

15 It's just for your information.

16 Q. Thank you, Witness T. Now, in conclusion, I would like to show

17 you Exhibit P704. This is the exhibit which I think the Trial Chamber is

18 familiar with. It's the long list of names. And I have extracted the

19 page which I needed for this particular witness so you don't have the

20 whole exhibit in front of you. At least, the witness can be shown the

21 complete exhibit with B/C/S or...

22 Now, Witness T, you are shown a document. If you could flip back

23 the page one page and -- I would like him to read the cover page of this

24 document. I don't know if you could...

25 Witness, could you please read out what's on this cover page, and

Page 2827

1 maybe start with the word "Subject." That particular line, could you read

2 it out.

3 A. Salary list for November 1993. Please find enclosed the salary

4 list for November 1993 for members of the Convicts' Battalion

5 anti-terrorist unit. Commander of the Convicts' Battalion and

6 anti-terrorist unit, Mladen Naletilic, Tuta.

7 Q. Will you now flip over to the next page. You see a whole list of

8 names. And without mentioning the name, is it correct that number 14, is

9 that your name?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. And do you recognise the other names in this list of names?

12 A. Yeah. Yes, I do.

13 Q. Who were these people?

14 A. These were members of the ATJ Krusko.

15 Q. Very well. Thank you.

16 Now, finally, Witness T, how long did the KB Krusko exist? Did

17 there come a time that the name of the unit was changed?

18 A. The name was changed when the 2nd Guards Brigade was formed. And

19 some joined that brigade, and others joined other units and groups.

20 Q. Did you join the 2nd Guards Brigade?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Under what army was the 2nd Guards Brigade, sir?

23 A. The HVO.

24 Q. How long did you remain a member of that brigade?

25 A. About one year, more or less, perhaps a bit more. I don't know.

Page 2828

1 Q. Okay. Witness T, I have one more thing -- I think the witness

2 doesn't need the exhibit any more.

3 Witness T, you have described for us today in court a man by the

4 name of Mladen Naletilic. Could you please look around in this courtroom

5 and see whether you actually recognise this man here today in court?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Can you describe where he is seated and what he is wearing.

8 A. He is sitting in the last row. He's second from the right; he's

9 wearing a grey jacket and a brownish shirt and a red and blue tie.

10 Q. Thank you, Witness T.

11 MR. BOS: May the record reflect that the witness identified the

12 accused Mladen Naletilic.

13 I now would like to tender the various permits which we just went

14 through, so I would like to tender Exhibits P242, P303, P435, P501, P507,

15 and P659. And that concludes my examination.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, we have five minutes to the break. So are you

17 going to begin your cross-examination right now, or we may have break at

18 this moment and come back later, Mr. Krsnik?

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'm sorry.

20 Of course, I need a break, because a change of witness occurred. Even

21 before the hearing, I spoke to my learned colleague, and I said that I

22 needed time to prepare for the cross. Well, perhaps I could agree with my

23 colleagues on the matter. I don't want to tire Your Honours with this. I

24 don't know what the plans are for the future with the coming of the other

25 witness.

Page 2829

1 Well, we'll have a break, and then we will continue after that.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think, you know, in the afternoon, at 2:30,

3 we'll continue with the convicted witness. And if we do not finish that

4 witness at 4.00, we might prolong the sitting a little bit, maybe to 5.00

5 or 5.30. But anyway, we have to finish that witness today.

6 Now, we'll have our break, about 20 minutes. We'll resume at

7 quarter to 12. Then we'll have a break at 1.00 for the lunchtime. Thank

8 you.

9 --- Recess taken at 11.25 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 11.48 a.m.

11 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, cross-examination.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness T. Let me introduce

14 myself. I'm Kresimir Krsnik, and I'm counsel for Mr. Mladen Naletilic. I

15 will ask you some questions, and I will endeavour to phrase them in a

16 manner to allow you then to answer very briefly and very concisely. I

17 shall be asking you questions about what you personally know, not about

18 what you heard from others.

19 So my first question: You were a member of Juka Prazina's unit in

20 Sarajevo in 1992, weren't you?

21 A. I was.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel and witness please pause

23 between question and answer.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

25 Q. And throughout 1992 until you came out to Igman, you were a member

Page 2830












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2831

1 of that unit, weren't you?

2 A. Yes.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Will please the witness and counsel pause

4 between question and answer.

5 JUDGE LIU: Did you hear the interpreters? Please make a pause.

6 Thank you.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

8 Q. And what was that unit's name within the army of Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina?

10 A. Special units of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 Q. And how strong was that unit in 1992, prior to Igman?

12 A. I wouldn't know the exact number. But according to their

13 accreditation numbers, about 7.000, roughly. I wouldn't know the exact

14 number.

15 Q. Juka Prazina had under his command 7.000 members of that unit, of

16 the special unit; is that it?

17 A. I'm saying this is what I read on the accreditations list, that

18 that was the number, but I don't know exactly.

19 Q. Do you know if there were any conflicts between these units and

20 some other units within the army of BH in Sarajevo?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. And the conflict which took place on Igman between Zuka Alispago's

23 unit, was that Zuka Alispago and you; was the -- on the other side, Zuka

24 Alispago?

25 A. Yes, there was a conflict.

Page 2832

1 Q. Zuka Alispago commanded a special unit called "Black Swans", "Crni

2 Labudovi"?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. Was it another special-purpose unit?

5 A. Yes, it was a special-purpose unit outside Sarajevo, and we did

6 not know about them. We, who were in Sarajevo, did not know about them.

7 Q. Now, listen, we always have to see -- do you still live in

8 Sarajevo? Don't give us an address or anything.

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. With your whole family?

11 A. Some of them are in Croatia.

12 Q. Tell me, are you aware that the arrest has been ordered of all the

13 members of Juka Prazina's unit and their detention; that in the end of

14 '92, '93, that he was to be detained?

15 A. I am hearing this from you.

16 Q. You do not know that an order was issued to all military units on

17 the ground from Igman to Mostar, that is, the 4th Corps or, rather, its

18 area of responsibility, to arrest its members and bring them, under

19 custody, to the District Court in Zenica?

20 A. I didn't know that.

21 Q. You did not know, is it, that Mr. Prazina fled from that and that

22 that was how he arrived in the area of Mostar?

23 A. I know we arrived in the area of Mostar. I do not know if he was

24 fleeing from that.

25 Q. Not only Mr. Prazina, all the other members ending with number

Page 2833

1 129, that is, 129 members?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you know nothing about that?

4 A. No, we did not know why he fled. We didn't know the real reason.

5 We never found out the real reason. I mean, we, individual soldiers.

6 Q. And you were in Igman?

7 A. Yes, I was.

8 Q. You do not know that there was fighting between Zuka and Juka?

9 A. I don't know that.

10 Q. Do you know that Zuka disarmed members of Juka's unit?

11 A. I've heard about it.

12 Q. But you do not know that?

13 A. I did not see that, so I'm telling you I heard about it. I did

14 not see that.

15 Q. And you did not ask anyone else in the unit about what was going

16 on, you simply followed in Juka's steps. Is that it?

17 A. In the beginning, we were in disarray. There was nobody to ask.

18 We knew nothing.

19 Q. And when you arrived in the area of Mostar, did HVO offer you

20 protection?

21 A. They did.

22 Q. You were issued an HVO ID on the 16th of February, '93. Is that

23 correct?

24 A. I do not remember the date, but yes, I was issued with an ID.

25 Q. An order was issued whereby you became an autonomous unit within

Page 2834

1 the HVO?

2 A. I don't know about that.

3 Q. As an autonomous unit, you took part both in actions against Serbs

4 and also in actions against Muslims, for instance, in Bijelo Polje. Is

5 that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Excuse me?

8 A. I said yes.

9 Q. Your command, I think, belonged in the North-Eastern Herzegovina

10 sector. Is that correct?

11 A. I can't really understand --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, south-east.

13 A. I don't know what is the south-eastern part.


15 Q. [Interpretation] Well, say, the area of Mostar?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And when -- and that is where you received your orders from,

18 orders to go into action?

19 A. I do not know that.

20 Q. You told my learned friend from the Prosecution that Tuta was your

21 commander. Did you hear that or did you know that?

22 A. I heard that from my commander, from Juka, and others below him.

23 I -- directly, Tuta never addressed me. Tuta never spoke to me to tell me

24 "I'm your commander."

25 Q. In other words, you have no direct knowledge about that?

Page 2835

1 A. I have knowledge, again, from my commander.

2 Q. Yes, we've heard that.

3 A. That's the only kind of knowledge I have.

4 Q. And tell, please, this Honourable Court, what happened to Juka

5 Prazina?

6 A. About the conflict, you're asking me?

7 Q. No, no, no. I'm asking you what happened to him. Is he alive or

8 dead?

9 A. I hear that he is dead.

10 Q. Did you hear this fact from Bozo Sajin? Perhaps can we check it

11 with him?

12 A. Yes, I heard it from him and from other individuals. And even

13 from the media, from newspapers and such like.

14 Q. I see. You followed the media. And that is what the media wrote

15 about, is it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Will you tell us which newspaper, if you remember?

18 A. I believe it was Dnevni Avaz. His sister -- his sister was to

19 transfer his remains, and I think this article was about that. I believe

20 it was Dnevni Avaz.

21 Q. And Dnevni Avaz, is it the organ of the Party for Democratic

22 Action and which came out in Sarajevo? Is that the paper?

23 A. That paper comes out in Sarajevo. Well -- no, I know that it

24 comes out in Bosnia. Whose organ it is, I do not know.

25 Q. Tell me, please, have you heard of the conflict between Juka

Page 2836

1 Prazina and Arif Pasalic, the commander of the 4th Corps, whose area of

2 responsibility was Mostar, Konjic and Jablanica?

3 A. As far as I know, some of our members, that is, members of the KB

4 Krusko, they were allegedly arrested there, captured there, and he

5 requested an exchange. That is what I heard.

6 Q. And Juka tried -- they tried to disarm Juka, and then somebody

7 threw a hand grenade, and then there ensued an attack on a building called

8 "Vranica." Are you aware of that?

9 A. At that time, there were conflicts around. I'm not aware of that.

10 Q. But do you know that Juka wanted to pay him back?

11 A. Well, for a while, he spoke out against everybody, not only

12 against him. Whether that was to be a revenge or something, I don't know

13 what you mean by that.

14 Q. Well, I mean perhaps he wanted to pay Arif Pasalic back because

15 the latter wanted to disarm him and detain him.

16 A. Well, he could have done this to him, that is, disarm him or

17 something. And revenge, well, that can mean murder, too.

18 Q. Well, that's what I'm asking you about. Did Juka attack Vranica

19 because of that?

20 A. I don't know. I know nothing about that. He knows that.

21 Q. Tell us, please, you told my learned friend that you were not in

22 Mostar in May; is that correct?

23 A. For a part of May.

24 Q. Very well. And tell me, please, if you can, where were you?

25 A. With my family, I'd say. I must have been with my family, because

Page 2837

1 I had nowhere else to go.

2 Q. And now tell me, please, your base at Heliodrom, were there many

3 troops? Apart from your unit, were there many other units there?

4 A. There were, yes.

5 Q. And tell me, was it also the recruitment centre at Heliodrom?

6 A. At a later stage.

7 Q. A training centre?

8 A. Yes, it later -- it was later on at another time.

9 Q. Tell me, please, when you went into action against Muslims in

10 Bijelo Polje, was Juka your commander?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. Will you please be so kind as to tell us, how long did you stay

13 with the HVO, in the HVO?

14 A. Early '93 until, I think, early '96 or end of '95 - I'm not sure -

15 but that was with the Guards Brigade.

16 Q. When you arrived from Igman with Juka Prazina, 95 per cent or

17 perhaps even more of the members of that unit were Muslims; is that

18 correct?

19 A. There were quite a number of Muslims. I wouldn't know the exact

20 number. But we came from all ethnic groups.

21 Q. And after that, you continued to fight against the BH army too,

22 didn't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. A while ago, my learned friend showed you a number of those

25 permits you were issued. I look at their dates. You practically could

Page 2838

1 get a permit whenever you liked; is that so? And if that bothered you,

2 then why didn't you stay with your family in Croatia and leave that all?

3 A. And what would you want me to do in Croatia at that time with nine

4 members of my family if I couldn't go elsewhere, to some other country?

5 Q. So you wanted to go to a third country, to a western democratic

6 country?

7 A. Well, I am saying "another country." It could be a third country.

8 Q. You mean a third country of West European democracies?

9 A. I mean a third country; that is, not Herzegovina, not Croatia, not

10 former Yugoslavia, that is what I mean. Another country. You can call it

11 "a third country," "a fourth country," or whatever you like.

12 Q. No, no, no, thank you. I'm only asking you what you mean by that.

13 A. I mean all that is not the former Yugoslavia, so that is when I

14 say "another country."

15 Q. And since you did not get the asylum, right, you decided to stay

16 with the HVO; is that it?

17 A. Since I could not get that asylum from those who were my bosses,

18 that is, I could -- as you put it, I could -- yes, I could escape to

19 Croatia. But what then?

20 Q. You would have got the refugee card in Croatia, like your family?

21 A. I got it.

22 Q. So you had the refugee card in Croatia too, didn't you?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. And the Croatian State, they would have taken care of you, just as

25 they took care of your family? I don't know, of course, what it amounted

Page 2839












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2840

1 to, but something they did get so you could stay in Croatia.

2 A. Yes, I had this possibility. But whether it was healthy to stay

3 there, to escape one unit with which I had left Sarajevo, to leave that

4 unit, to betray that unit, and that to live within their reach, an hour or

5 two of car ride, what would be the consequences? Would somebody think

6 that I had betrayed him?

7 Q. Your commander betrayed you?

8 A. Yes, in the end. But we remained loyal to him to the very end

9 because we were hoping for something else.

10 Q. And when did you return to Sarajevo?

11 A. I think in early '96 or end of '95. I'm not sure.

12 Q. Was an investigation started against you in Sarajevo --

13 A. I wouldn't know.

14 Q. -- because you were a member of Juka Prazina's unit and because

15 you fought against the army of BH?

16 A. I am not aware of any investigation against me.

17 Q. Nobody conducted an interview with you, either in the police or by

18 a judge, no charges were brought against you?

19 A. There were others who also fought against AbiH army from some

20 other formations and still lived normally. And no charges have been

21 brought against them either, not at least that I'm aware of.

22 Q. At some point you said that you were hoping for something, so

23 here's my question. Can you tell us, what is it that you hoped for when

24 you stayed in the HVO?

25 A. When we left Sarajevo, we left intending to deblock Sarajevo.

Page 2841

1 That was our intention and our wish. And by -- and when we joined the

2 HVO, there was no conflict between the Muslims and Croats then. So we

3 hoped that we would altogether set off to open that city, to liberate it.

4 Q. Are you personally aware -- do you know that major Croat forces

5 arrived at Igman joined with Juka Prazina's forces were ready to set out

6 to liberate Sarajevo that you were prevented from doing that?

7 A. I do not know that, but I have heard of those stories, because I

8 was in Sarajevo at that time. And we then took pride in that fact because

9 we hoped that it would be liberated. But I heard about what you are

10 telling me.

11 Q. Did Juka Prazina have a conflict with the Supreme Command because

12 he wanted and supported the plan to deblock Sarajevo, to get away the

13 Croat army and the Supreme Command, and the president of the state would

14 not allow that?

15 Let me repeat my question because not everybody heard it because

16 I'm just too fast. I apologise. I do not wait for the end of the

17 interpretation.

18 That is, are you aware that Juka Prazina, a man who commanded the

19 largest number of men in Sarajevo, endorsed the plan -- when I say the

20 Croat army, always mean the HVO, I apologise. So HVO, they wanted to --

21 he wanted them to jointly deblock Sarajevo. Do you know why he then had a

22 conflict with the Supreme Command and the head of the Bosnian state

23 himself, because they did not want that? They needed Sarajevo to be

24 blockaded, and if anyone was to deblock it, then it was not the Croat but

25 the HVO army?

Page 2842

1 A. Yes, there were all sorts of stories, and this was one of them.

2 Q. After that, attacks on Juka began, the conflict with Zuka arose,

3 so on and so forth. Is that correct?

4 A. That happened on Igman. I do not know exactly. We assumed a

5 different reason. Perhaps that was the reason; I'm not sure.

6 Q. Could you tell me why is it that a Supreme Command did not want

7 the deblocking of Sarajevo, the BiH armies?

8 A. How can I know that? We can only make our guesses.

9 Q. Well, give me one of those, one of your guesses.

10 A. I don't know. Whatever I say will be silly. I don't really

11 know.

12 Q. After that, when you arrived in Mostar and so on and so forth, all

13 that you told my learned friend, you then begin to work as a driver. Is

14 that correct?

15 A. Later on, not at first.

16 Q. Yes, yes, yes. That's what I mean, later on.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Tell me, at that time, Siroki Brijeg was the only free territory

19 where all the logistics converged because there was fighting in Mostar.

20 Would that be correct?

21 A. Where the chief logistics was, I don't know. Yes, there was

22 fighting in Mostar, that's true.

23 Q. And there was no fighting in Siroki Brijeg. Is that correct?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. And it is also the nearest town to Croatia, to ports, to ships and

Page 2843

1 so on and so forth. Is that true?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the humanitarian convoys arriving from all other parts of the

4 world, did they go through Siroki?

5 A. I do not know that.

6 Q. And the drivers from other units, from other brigades and whatever

7 other units, did also go to the depots and work houses in Siroki Brijeg?

8 A. I do not know.

9 Q. Tell me -- I'm sorry, you do not have these permits in front of

10 you, so I will ask the usher to give them to you because I would like to

11 talk a little bit about them. Exhibit Number 501, 507. And please,

12 Exhibit Number 242.

13 Could you be kind enough to look at the permit signed by Miljenko

14 Lasic and Petar Zelenika. It's Exhibit Number P242. It's written on the

15 bottom of the page. Could you please turn to the Croatian text.

16 Do you know who issued that permit to you personally?

17 A. Personally, by Juka Prazina or Bozo Sajin.

18 Q. So you do not know personally who went to get the permit, who

19 signed it, who the people were involved?

20 A. You could only acknowledge it through the signature.

21 Q. Well, the date is February 6th. When did you come to Mostar?

22 A. Well, at the beginning of 1993.

23 Q. January, was it, February?

24 A. I cannot remember. It was the beginning. It was either January,

25 February, March. I'm not quite sure.

Page 2844

1 Q. I'm asking this for a simple reason. And I will use this as a

2 proposal of evidence by the Defence counsel, because the order that came

3 from the Ministry of Defence was on February 16th, 1993, when you were

4 established as an independent unit. You do not know. All right.

5 Do you know who Zelenika was? It was stated that he was your

6 commander, and that is why I'm asking you.

7 A. Well, he could have been the commander of my commander. My

8 commander was Juka. And I heard that he was the commander of the HVO, a

9 minister, but I personally do not know.

10 Q. That is all right. It is clearly stated on the permit. The

11 overall commander signs it, and then your direct commander. Because

12 according to this permit, that your direct commander was Mr. Zelenika, and

13 Juka's commander was Mr. Zelenika. And Miljenko Lasic was commander of

14 the operative zone of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This is also clearly stated.

15 A. I do not know.

16 Q. After that, could you please turn to Exhibit 507. Here your

17 direct commander was Ivan Andabak and your commander of the Operative Zone

18 was Mica Lasic?

19 A. That's how it is written.

20 Q. You have it in front of you. Is that what is written there? So

21 you personally just received this?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, please go to Exhibit 501. You can see the date, "July 7th"?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So you received an open-ended permit, and then later on you take

Page 2845

1 another permit, although you have this permit that has no limitation. I

2 think you have been informed of that permit for July 7th and the next

3 permit which was for free movement in Bosnia and Herzegovina. This permit

4 was for going to Croatia? Well, I may be wrong.

5 A. Here we see the signature "Valentin Coric."

6 [Cannot distinguish between Q and A]

7 Q. Can you tell us who has superior authority here, if someone gives

8 you permission to move around Bosnia and Herzegovina freely and someone

9 else makes it possible for you to leave Bosnia and Herzegovina?

10 A. Well, I cannot really say who is commander of whom. Here it is

11 stated that the main commander seems to be nothing, so it's not quite

12 clear to me.

13 Q. Well, when you asked for permission, you referred to Juka, and

14 then someone would bring it, either him or someone else?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Will you kindly look at 303. Could you please -- I think on the

17 left-hand side, you have the signature of Mladen Naletilic, Tuta; on the

18 right-hand side, Prazina. Would Prazina himself sign? Could he perhaps

19 sign instead of someone?

20 A. Well, it is something that we all know, but we could all sign on

21 behalf of someone.

22 Q. Do you know Mr. Prazina's handwriting?

23 A. No. I have seen many of his signatures like that. I can

24 recognise it.

25 Q. Can you compare Prazina and Naletilic? Do you see any similarity?

Page 2846

1 A. Yes, only --

2 JUDGE LIU: I see Mr. Bos is standing.

3 MR. BOS: I have an objection to this question. Our witness is

4 not an expert in writing, so I don't think he can be asked this question.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Would you please raise your question again,

6 because Defence counsel lost it.

7 MR. BOS: My objection is that this witness is not a writing

8 expert, so I don't think he is allowed to be asked this question or to

9 answer this question.

10 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, maybe you could tell us, where are you

11 going to lead us?

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree and I confirm that this

13 witness is not a handwriting expert. Well, the Defence will bring

14 expertise when this is necessary. But we, who speak this language and

15 write in the Latin script, you can see a great deal of similarity, not

16 only, well, on the basis of the pencil used -- pen used, but this can even

17 be seen just at first glance. This was my sole intention in asking the

18 question. I have no further questions regarding the permit, because the

19 Defence will investigate the issue further when it has its own witnesses.

20 And now finally, as concerns the permissions, it's Exhibit 657.

21 JUDGE LIU: We don't have the Document 657. We only have 659.

22 MR. KRSNIK: 659, 659. Thank you.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Again we have a new situation. Do you have the

24 text in front of you, the Croatian version? Here your immediate commander

25 is Bozo Sajin, and his commander is Marinko Mikulic. Do you know who

Page 2847

1 Marinko Mikulic is?

2 A. No. I heard about him, but I don't know him.

3 Q. Did he give you the same permission to travel to Dubrovnik?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Tell me, please, about you and your unit. Well, it seems that you

6 received salaries from Juka, that this was not too good at the beginning

7 but that the situation had improved later on. Who actually gave

8 salaries? You always received money from Juka?

9 A. Well, someone else sometimes distributed the salaries.

10 Q. You said, in your statement to our learned colleagues, that you

11 had seen Tuta once, only once, in 1994?

12 A. Yes, I said that I had seen him several times, but I don't

13 remember the date.

14 Q. The question refers to the Heliodrom. In the statement that you

15 made to the investigators --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- you said that it was on January 1st, 1994, when all the units

18 had been dissolved and a new unit was formed, the 2nd Guard Brigade?

19 A. Yes, the 2nd was being formed, but the exact date --

20 Q. Well, this is what you said in your statement. So that was the

21 time you saw him at Heliodrom, when there was the ceremony for the

22 founding of the brigade?

23 A. I do not know.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm just asking what you do know.

25 Just a moment, Your Honours. Your Honour, the Defence has

Page 2848












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2849

1 concluded its cross-examination. We don't see that we have any question

2 that we can put to the witness and expect a relevant answer, so I have

3 concluded.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Seric.

5 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. The witness,

6 in his testimony, did not give a reason for the Defence of Vinko

7 Martinovic to proceed to cross-examination.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Judge Clark has a question to ask the

9 witness.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE CLARK: Witness S [sic], I'm not quite clear about your

12 position in your unit after your -- sorry. Witness S [sic], I'm not quite

13 clear about a couple of things. You gave evidence that when your leader,

14 Juka Prazina, left, you were then without a commander, and you said that

15 you were informed that Tuta was your commander. Who was immediately in

16 command before you went up there? Who would have been your brigade

17 commander?

18 Witness T, it should be.

19 A. After Juka had left, Bozo Sajin took over. He replaced him, and

20 he told us who our chief commander was.

21 JUDGE CLARK: Did this gentleman, Bozo Sajin, did he remain your

22 immediate officer for a period?

23 A. Yes, until the 2nd Guard Brigade was formed.

24 JUDGE CLARK: That brings me to the next question. When the

25 2nd Guard Brigade was formed and you joined it, who was your immediate

Page 2850

1 officer?

2 A. My immediate officer in the Guard Brigade was -- Rafo was the main

3 person in the unit, in the battalion. Rafo was the main person of the

4 battalion. The name of the other person, I do not know. [Realtime

5 transcript read in error "Ralf"]

6 JUDGE CLARK: Could you spell Rafo, please.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting you,

9 Judge Clark. In the transcript, it says "Ralf" and not "Rafo," as the

10 witness said. I think that's quite a difference.

11 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. That's why I was asking him to spell it,

12 because it looks like a German name there. How do you spell "Rafo"?

13 A. R-a-f-o.

14 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.

15 And you said that it was the 2nd Guard Brigade. And in that

16 brigade, if I understand you correctly, you said there were many different

17 ethnic groups, including several Muslims?

18 A. Well, there was a minority group of Muslims in the Guard Brigade.

19 JUDGE CLARK: And did you have -- did you serve as soldiers

20 actively with weapons, or did you merely guard the munitions or supplies?

21 A. Are you referring to the 2nd Guard Brigade or something else?

22 JUDGE CLARK: The 2nd Guard Brigade, yes.

23 A. As soldiers, with weapons. As soldiers with weapons.

24 JUDGE CLARK: Does that mean that all your -- all the members of

25 your 2nd Guard Brigade were in active service?

Page 2851

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. Thank you very much, Witness T. I have

3 no further questions.

4 JUDGE LIU: Judge Diarra.

5 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Witness T, I would have two

6 questions for you. Your permits, you received a certain number of

7 permits. They all bear different signatures. Did it ever happen that

8 permits be signed by one single authority, but was it ever the case that

9 there was always a double signature: one representative of a single

10 authority and another signature from somebody else?

11 Can you explain to us why on some permits, there are two

12 signatures appearing?

13 A. Well, on one permit, you have the signature of the main commander

14 of that area, and then the commander, the signature of the commander of

15 that group, of that unit in which the person requesting the permit is

16 from.

17 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] But there are permits where only

18 one signature appears. How do you explain that?

19 A. I'm not -- I don't understand. It's not clear to me.

20 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Is my question not clear for you,

21 or is the situation not clear for you?

22 A. I'm not clear about the signatures. If on one side, we have the

23 signature of a commander of a sector, and after ten days, I get another

24 permit, there will be another commander. And then other commanders will

25 sign subsequent permits. That's not clear to me.

Page 2852

1 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] I understand.

2 The people who signed these permits, among them is Mladen

3 Naletilic. Did you ever speak in person to that person? Did you ever see

4 that person on the ground? Did you ever see him giving orders to local

5 commanders on the ground? Could you ever observe that?

6 A. No.

7 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness T.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any questions out of Judges' questions?

9 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour, just one question in relation to the

10 question raised by Judge Clark regarding the person named Bozo Sajin.

11 Re-examined by Mr. Bos:

12 Q. Witness T, you testified that Bozo Sajin took over command of the

13 KB Krusko when Juka had left. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. What was Bozo Sajin's function when Juka was still there in the

16 unit? Was he also a member of the unit then?

17 A. Yes, he was member of that unit then, and he was Juka's deputy.

18 Q. So when Juka left, the deputy became the commander?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. BOS: I have nothing further.

21 JUDGE LIU: Any questions, Mr. Krsnik?

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise about all

23 these -- asking about the signatures on the permits. When Judge Diarra

24 spoke about the fact that there were no permits -- not always two permits

25 [sic] on Exhibit 507, there are also two signatures by two different

Page 2853

1 persons, because there are always signatures by the two commanders. I

2 will explain why this was so and how the HVO was organised, and there was

3 a procedure with these signatures. But I will not go into that now.

4 JUDGE LIU: No, I don't think you will explain to us as a witness

5 on this point.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Of course. I simply want to say to

7 Judge Diarra, there is not a single permit without both signatures. They

8 both carry two -- all of them carry two signatures.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 Witness, thank you very much, for helping us with the evidence.

11 When the blind is pulled down by the usher, you may leave then.

12 Thank you.

13 [Witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE LIU: In the direct examination of this witness, the

15 following documents are tendered by the Prosecutor under the seal; namely,

16 Document P242, P303, P435, P501, P507, and P659.

17 Are there any objections from the Defence side?

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence objects

19 only to Exhibit Number 704. That is the list, I think. Is it 704 or -- I

20 see. It was not tendered. It was not produced. Then we have no

21 objections.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Seric?

23 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. They are admitted into the

25 evidence. Madam Registrar will give each a proper number.

Page 2854

1 THE REGISTRAR: After documents have been submitted and admitted,

2 they will bear the number "PP" before it. So PP242, PP303, PP435, PP501,

3 PP507, and PP659 have been registered as admitted.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We'll adjourn until 2.30 at this moment.

5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.48 p.m.





















Page 2855

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott. I saw you standing.

4 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. I'm sorry to intervene, but

5 the interpreter that's assisting the witness at the witness stand asked me

6 for some guidance, and really in turn I'm actually asking the Chamber for

7 some guidance.

8 In terms of interpretation, some questions came up last week, you

9 may recall, about colloquy or discussion between counsel, and the

10 interpreter was asking me this morning whether she should be interpreting

11 that to the witness or not. And I said I would bring that to the

12 Chamber's attention. Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, if we are discussing legal issues, I think it's

14 not necessary to translate it into German to the witness. But as for the

15 normal proceedings, I think everything should be translated into the

16 language the witness could understand. Is that okay? Maybe we could give

17 you the specific instructions at that moment.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you, Your Honour, yes.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

20 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

21 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, before your cross-examination, would you

22 please tell this Chamber how long you are going to take so we can make the

23 arrangements? I say that because I'm not going to limit your time.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, I do know, Your Honour. Many

25 people asked me the same question today. I will do my best. I had time

Page 2856

1 to prepare myself thoroughly, and if my cross-examination moves at the

2 former rate, I believe I will not need more than two hours. And perhaps

3 if I'm lucky enough with my questions, then it will take shorter than

4 that.

5 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] You're worrying me there, because

6 sometimes the witness speaks so quickly that the interpreter cannot

7 follow.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, okay. Thank you for your information, and

9 probably we'll have a break after 75 minutes, we'll break for about 25

10 minutes, and then we will continue with this witness.

11 Thank you. You may proceed.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik: [Continued]

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. I shall resume my

17 cross-examination bearing in mind all the warnings, the earlier warnings

18 that I gave you when I started my cross-examination. In other words, I

19 will word my questions so as to allow you to give us as concise and

20 precise answers as possible, and I will endeavour to confine myself only

21 to what you know directly.

22 And my first question is: That 1992/'93, that is, during the

23 fighting against the Serbs and in actions against the Muslims that you had

24 -- you acted solely as an intervention sabotage unit; is that correct?

25 A. Not directly. That was not only in '92, that was at the time when

Page 2857












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2858

1 we were together with Andabak when we were stationed in Croatia.

2 Q. Yesterday, you used the words "firemen units" or "fire-fighting

3 unit," if I understood you correctly.

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. So my question is as follows: You went out to put out the fire,

6 "to put out fires" in non-military parlance?

7 A. [No audible response]

8 Q. If you are slightly puzzled by what I'm saying, I can clarify it.

9 A. Well, "fire-fighters," that's a notion that we used. But in

10 principle, say, when there were actions from the opposing units, we had to

11 beat them back. So we were used at the time in the entire territory of

12 Herzegovina.

13 Q. Does that mean that, for instance, a front line was broken through

14 or had to be recovered, and then you were asked to help with this? And

15 the action finished, you then went back to a base or wherever?

16 A. That's correct. At the time, usually, the confrontation lines

17 were kept by the regular troops that were made up of the former -- of the

18 Crisis Staff, but then -- and there were actions by the Serbs or the

19 Muslims where the lines were broken through, then we were called upon to

20 re-establish the former situation. And then when it was finished, we had

21 to retreat to Siroki Brijeg or to Mostar.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness be asked to slow down, please.


24 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, will you please slow down because it is

25 very difficult. The interpretation is too fast, and it is very difficult

Page 2859

1 for us to follow.

2 A. I'll try.

3 Q. Thank you very much.

4 Did it perhaps work like this: There is a critical situation on

5 the ground somewhere, the Crisis Staff notifies the Ministry or the

6 competent command, and the competent or relevant command of the Ministry

7 tells you where you are to go urgently, you go there, perform your

8 mission, and come back? Is that how it worked?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. So, let's go back to my first question: You worked as a

11 conventional intervention unit for individual -- for special tasks. Is

12 that it?

13 A. Yes, you could describe it that way.

14 Q. And as such, you were never in a situation to have any civilian

15 prisoners, you didn't have any contact with the prisoners; and being such

16 a unit, you, again, never had any civilian prisoners. Is that correct?

17 A. That's right. We never had civilian prisoners, because we were

18 acting mostly in mountain areas or places that were not really accessible.

19 Q. And you didn't have any other prisoners, did you? Or if it

20 happened that you had them, then you would turn them over to somebody

21 else, somebody who was responsible for them. Is that true?

22 A. Yes, that's right. Once we had prisoners, we had an action late

23 '93, maybe early '94, I can't remember exactly. I think it's -- it was

24 in autumn, early morning. We were supposed to take a hill, and the unit

25 was pulled back early afternoon, was supplied, and then some people had

Page 2860

1 been taken, and they were transported away in a vehicle.

2 Q. But that happened only once. And on that occasion, you turned

3 over those prisoners to people in charge, to the relevant authority who

4 then turned them over to others for the procedure applicable in that case,

5 I mean, the authorities conducting the investigation or something.

6 A. I can't tell you.

7 Q. As such, your unit could not even have a prison. And as you said

8 in your statement that was shown you yesterday, you affirmed that you --

9 that there was never, ever any prisoner at Siroki Brijeg, didn't you?

10 A. That's right. We didn't have any prisoners in Siroki Brijeg.

11 Q. Nor was there a prison run by your unit; there was no prison at

12 all. Is that it?

13 A. We didn't have a prison at all. I know of two prisons, one in

14 Ljubuski, that was under the authority of the police, and the other one

15 was in the Heliodrom where Serbs were imprisoned and it was guarded by

16 Muslims, just to prevent them from any counteraction. [Realtime

17 translation read in error "^"]

18 Q. This first name is not in the transcript. Do you mean Ljubuski,

19 that is, the military detention prison in Ljubuski? Is that the

20 institution that you had in mind?

21 A. I don't know whether it was run by the military or by the police,

22 I couldn't tell you, because some of our people were imprisoned there at

23 times because they had done something wrong. I think that it was run by

24 the police.

25 Q. But the town is Ljubuski? I'm asking you about that because of

Page 2861

1 the transcript.

2 A. Yes, that was in Ljubuski.

3 Q. When you said some of your people, do you mean if some of your men

4 also transgressed some rules, they were also taken there for punishment or

5 for disciplinary sanctions? Members of your unit, were they also taken to

6 that detention prison?

7 A. Yeah, not for very long, until they were expelled from

8 Herzegovina.

9 Q. When you say "expelled from Herzegovina," do you mean foreigners?

10 A. Yeah, that's right.

11 Q. So after they would serve their term, then the ultimate punishment

12 was their banishment from Herzegovina or, rather, their expulsion to their

13 respective countries, and they could no longer be members of the HVO; is

14 that it?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. Those disciplinary measures applied to Croat members of your unit;

17 their only punishment was a prison term if they had committed some

18 violation?

19 A. Well, some were thrown out of the unit as well.

20 Q. Very well. And if it was a serious breach, then they were turned

21 over either to the relevant prosecutor or to the civilian police for any

22 further procedure?

23 A. No. The police didn't meddle with things that had to do with our

24 unit, in general.

25 Q. The military police, that is, military investigating authorities,

Page 2862

1 if it was a severe breach, if something had happened for which a

2 disciplinary measure was not enough?

3 A. But that only happened with the approval of Tuta, under his

4 command. Without him, there was nothing possible.

5 Q. Yes. Well, I am saying that he initiated all these things:

6 punishment, disciplinary measures, or investigations. Yes, of course it

7 is he we have in mind.

8 A. If it came to that, then of course that was him that was leading

9 it in.

10 Q. So do you perhaps remember if, for instance -- because you did say

11 that in your statement, so let's take that example to clarify this. This

12 action that you participated in, you were after two Italians, four Croats

13 and some Germans who had organised a gang, if I may put it that way, so

14 your task was to catch them and turn them over to the military detention

15 prison in Ljubuski for further investigation?

16 A. That's right. That was led by Ivan Andabak.

17 Q. Well, yes, I wanted to use that example to clarify it, because

18 that was obviously investigation, because the disciplinary measure which

19 any commander could pronounce did not suffice because the breach was

20 serious, and so it had to be turned over to prosecution authorities, isn't

21 it? It was the prosecution authorities who had to resolve the matter; is

22 that correct?

23 A. Not quite. These people, they had taken some weapons from us.

24 They went to a house near Ljubuski, where they were. And Ivan Andabak and

25 some members of our unit, two or three people from the military police,

Page 2863

1 took them to Ljubuski, and then they took them to the Croatian border.

2 Q. So in this particular case, it was the theft of weapons, was it?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. Tell us, please, do you know of any other actions that you

5 undertook jointly with the police or the military police when arresting

6 various criminals, various offenders - thefts of cars, drug trafficking -

7 that is, your unit in cooperation with the military and the civilian

8 police?

9 A. I don't know anything about that.

10 Q. Mm-hmm. Tell me, please, you say you had been wounded in Novi

11 Travnik, is that correct, that you were shot at?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you were wounded by a Muslim; is that correct?

14 A. I suppose so, because it was -- there was quite a chaotic

15 situation in the hotel.

16 Q. You were then taken to the hospital and were ill-treated by a

17 Muslim physician; is that correct? That is, rather than help you, he

18 abused you, he maltreated you; is that correct?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. And after that, members of your unit and Mr. Tuta took you out of

21 that hospital and took you then to the hospital in Split, and you

22 travelled for three days, and there they saved your leg; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. After that, according to your statement, you were promoted to a

25 commander of the unit. Is that correct?

Page 2864

1 A. That had happened already, late summer of '92.

2 Q. Did you get a decision in writing about your promotion?

3 A. No, no.

4 Q. I'm asking you because the ranks were not granted before late '93

5 and '94. Did you get a written decision on your promotion at that time?

6 A. I didn't get anything in writing.

7 Q. And tell me, do you receive a pension because you were promoted to

8 the rank of the captain, or are you now a pensioner of the HVO?

9 A. Yes, I was granted a pension, 60 percent invalid. I got from 500

10 to 600 d-mark per month.

11 Q. Perhaps that was the welfare amount rather than the pension.

12 Perhaps that was your welfare allowance.

13 A. As far as I know, it was a pension that I got from -- for having

14 been wounded.

15 Q. Are you still receiving that allowance?

16 A. I'm afraid I can't tell you because I no longer have any contacts

17 with Croatia or the former Yugoslavia.

18 Q. But had you received the decision in writing about your promotion,

19 you would be getting your retirement allowance wherever you were?

20 A. I don't know whether I would get it anywhere. I didn't really

21 worry about it. In June or July, '95, I went to Germany, and that's when

22 I got the money for the last time. And I asked for the money to be

23 transferred to an account, to the Splitska Banka.

24 Q. Well, well, never mind. We'll come back to this later.

25 Now, if you would be so kind, you said in your statement that the

Page 2865

1 ranks that you saw, the paper -- that ranks were determined by Zagreb at

2 the end of '93, if I am correct. Do you know if it was -- that it was the

3 effect of a decree that all the HVO officers with Croatia nationality,

4 that they could join -- rather, transfer to the State of Croatia and

5 become officers in the Croatian army, but with one rank lower, provided

6 they were Croatian nationals? Are you aware of that?

7 A. Yes, I'm aware of that, but I don't know exactly in which context

8 all this happened. At any rate, there was a demotion by one rank, and we

9 got the new military IDs that had been established by a computer.

10 Q. And computers were introduced in the beginning of '93. Is that

11 it?

12 A. I can't tell you when exactly they were brought in. I think that

13 everything was put on to computers around '93, '94.

14 Q. In November or December '93, the computers were already in place,

15 weren't they?

16 A. That's quite possible.

17 Q. And all the correspondence, all the lists, members of units and so

18 on and so forth, all these lists were compiled on computers. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. I guess so, yeah.

21 Q. You said something about money earlier. Are you aware that the

22 Croats -- Croatian National Diet adopted a decision in late '91 whereby it

23 allocated aid to the Croat component in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that that

24 decision is still in effect?

25 A. I don't know anything about that. But I saw that there was aid

Page 2866












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2867

1 coming in from Croatia.

2 Q. The Zagreb bank, Zagrebacka Banka, had its branch office in

3 Mostar, didn't it?

4 A. Yeah, that's right.

5 Q. Well, then, why should it be a surprise that on this slip showing

6 the money, there was also a mark of the Zagreb bank?

7 A. Anyway, anyway, it was transferred into bank accounts. It was no

8 longer coming in cash. So there was a transfer to the bank in Siroki

9 Brijeg, and then we had some kind of savings book. And you could get the

10 money in cash or you could have your money transferred on to that savings

11 account for it to be saved.

12 Q. Thank you very much.

13 Tell me, please, who was the commander of the anti-aircraft unit

14 in the Convicts' Battalion?

15 A. We basically had nothing. We had a four-tube Browning machine.

16 That's what we had in '92, but then we didn't have it any more.

17 Q. Because you were an intervention unit and you did not need that

18 kind of armament?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. You never had a tank again because you never needed one, seeing

21 what your unit was in charge of?

22 A. You're right there, too.

23 Q. And, as such, the unit -- now, I don't know whether to ask you

24 this, but will you please listen to what I'm saying and I will try to ask

25 you a question to explain it to you. Is it true that the Convicts'

Page 2868

1 Battalion, made of -- I don't know exactly. In late '92, early '93, it

2 had, say, 100 men, and that it was divided in a manner in which 60 men

3 slept at home at Siroki Brijeg and you, who slept in a hotel, and the

4 other half went to the Heliodrom, and that is where the Convicts'

5 Battalion was all the time, basically; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, you could say so, but --

7 Q. And in action, if all of you had to go, you would then call this

8 other half from Heliodrom; if you did not need them, then you went alone?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please bear in mind that the

10 consecutive interpretation lasts longer and that he has to wait.

11 A. That's right. It really depended on the size of the action and

12 how many people were needed for it.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise. I have to ask you this

14 question once again, because it is not recorded, my last question. That

15 is, your answer was not recorded.

16 Q. So will you please answer -- that is, I heard it, but it is not in

17 the transcript.

18 A. Right, when there were operations. But in the smaller size, we

19 only had people from Siroki Brijeg. But when the operation was larger,

20 then we had people who came from the Heliodrom, or there were other units

21 that were brought in as well.

22 Q. Thank you. That answer is now recorded. But what was said, that

23 the unit split, that the unit which you call the "Convicts' Battalion,"

24 that was split into two subunits, one at Heliodrom and the other at Siroki

25 Brijeg?

Page 2869

1 A. I told you already that the unit in the Heliodrom was ATG, and KB

2 was actually in Siroki Brijeg.

3 Q. Thank you. That is what was missing from the transcript. I

4 apologise. It is difficult because we have three different forms of

5 interpretation here, so please bear with me. We have to be patient.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please not speak over the

7 witness.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

9 Q. So this ATG and that half at Siroki Brijeg, the two of them made

10 the Convicts' Battalion; is that correct?

11 A. That was the core of the unit.

12 Q. Life at Heliodrom was military life, so to speak; some training

13 was provided there. And those who were at Siroki Brijeg, they had a much

14 easier life, that is, they were either at home or in a hotel and all they

15 had to do, actually, was immediately go into action when summoned?

16 A. That's right, too, because in the Heliodrom you mostly had people

17 who didn't have any prior military training, so they needed to be trained;

18 whilst in Siroki Brijeg, most of the people who were quartered there, they

19 had been present in operations, they had fighting experience, so they were

20 immediately available when people were needed.

21 Q. That unit, that subunit which was at the Heliodrom, was commanded

22 by Lija; that is what you said, is that correct?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. Tell me, please: You said in answer to my learned friend that for

25 a while they called you "Tuta's Team." Did they perhaps call you

Page 2870

1 "Tutaci," "Tuta's Boys"?

2 A. I couldn't tell now. I can't remember that.

3 Q. After your successes, and you answered -- you told that in answer

4 to my learned friend. After the successes in your fighting against the

5 Serbs, you said you earned glory then. And did perhaps many people want

6 to misrepresent that they were members of Tuta's team, if I may call you

7 that, but in reality they were not that, they simply wanted part of that

8 glory?

9 A. I couldn't tell you. I know that after all these operations, we

10 had a lot of people coming in from other units, and they really wanted to

11 be incorporated into the KB.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Tell me, please: My learned friend asked

13 you to point at Citluk, Ljubuski, Posusje and Grude as part of your area

14 of responsibility. Were there any combat operations there? I mean in

15 '93. Let's forget about the war with the Serbs.

16 A. No, we didn't have any combat operations then.

17 Q. Would you please be so kind as to tell me if you know Zdenko

18 Marusic? Zdenko Marusic.

19 A. Yes, I know him. He was actually our interpreter when we were at

20 the Bofors, manning the Bofors.

21 Q. Well, if he was not there, you could not communicate; is that

22 true?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. Could it then result in some misunderstandings?

25 A. It happened once that we were -- we had a problem with

Page 2871

1 understanding each other. A representative from Tuta was then sent, who

2 gave the right instructions.

3 Q. Tell me, please: As a matter of fact, you never demolished a

4 single mosque; is that correct?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. And to round off this part regarding Heliodrom and the

7 intervention unit, and as such as the fire-fighting intervention unit, you

8 never had anything to do with the camps; is that correct?

9 A. I can only say this about that: I had nothing to do with camps,

10 be it prisoners' camps or others. I spent three and-a-half years in that

11 unit. If during that time I had noticed -- I had seen that there were

12 maybe excesses against civilians, then I can tell you I wouldn't have

13 stayed that long in that unit, I would have done something else. So I

14 have not any knowledge of any such case.

15 Q. Thank you very much for these answers. You already told me that

16 before. I meant the camp at Heliodrom. The Convicts' Battalion had

17 nothing to do - nor could it have anything - with that camp?

18 A. That was a prison camp in the Heliodrom.

19 Q. Now, we obviously are talking at cross-purposes, and I think that

20 I asked you a very simple question. Let me clarify it. You were

21 stationed at Heliodrom, like many other units, and as a part of this

22 centre, that is, as a part of Heliodrom, which, however, had nothing to do

23 with another part of Heliodrom which was guarded by the military police

24 and which housed some prisoners or some camp inmates, whatever you want me

25 to call them?

Page 2872

1 A. No, we didn't have any influence on them. We were very distant

2 from them. We were really on the edge of the entire complex, compound.

3 Q. Yes, that was all I wanted to ask you, to shed some light and to

4 clarify for Their Honours the situation that existed there.

5 Now, I would like to ask you to move on. You come back from the

6 hospital, if I remember correctly, sometime in late February '93. I mean

7 the hospital in Split.

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. Needless to say, you had to use crutches, you were still under

10 treatment?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then if I am correct, in April, the Doljani action took

13 place. It was interrupted because -- it was discontinued because a

14 gentleman whose nickname is "Cikota" was killed?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. And as far as you know, there were no prisons -- there were no

17 prisoners taken in that action, and there was no contact with the civilian

18 population. Would that be correct?

19 A. I wasn't present during the operation, so I couldn't tell you

20 anything about it.

21 Q. Please, be so kind as to tell us, if you remember, that somewhat

22 later, there was a terrible slaughter of Croats that took place at

23 Stipica, above Doljani, and another action was put in place because the

24 Muslims had taken back Doljani in that attack, committed that slaughter,

25 and then you were called again to help the Croats, but that action was

Page 2873

1 discontinued because of the European monitors.

2 A. Yes, that's exact.

3 Q. At Doljani, there was a local unit called Mijat Tomic, and it had

4 its headquarters in Doljani. Is that correct?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Will you please --

7 JUDGE LIU: Hold on for a minute.

8 Mr. Scott.

9 MR. SCOTT: I apologise for interrupting, Your Honour. Could we

10 have the name of that place again. It didn't come through on the

11 transcript. Either counsel or the witness, and at this point, I'm not

12 sure if the witness did or not, but there was a mention of some place

13 where some alleged atrocity took place, and it didn't show up on the

14 transcript. It might become important, and I ask if we could have that

15 name, please.

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, maybe you could ask this question.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour. I would like

18 to thank my learned friend on his intervention. And now, when my

19 colleagues warn me about the transcript, I do something about it. The

20 name of the locality is Stipe, S-t-i-p-e, Livade. Stipica Livade.

21 I see there is something wrong. It's not -- it is S-t-i-p-i-c-a.

22 It's only one "P". Stipica Livade. Livade: L-i-v-a-d-e.

23 JUDGE LIU: Is that clear?

24 MR. SCOTT: I don't know. I think we've made some progress. I'm

25 not sure it's still completely clear. Perhaps we can take it up with

Page 2874

1 counsel, although that certainly doesn't resolve the record issue. I

2 guess I should ask the Chamber. Is the Chamber satisfied that the record

3 is clear?

4 MR. KRSNIK: I can tell in English. "Stipe" is meaning its name,

5 Steven, Meadows.

6 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry, I know I can't have discussion with

7 counsel. I apologise. Perhaps the Chamber could have Mr. Krsnik assist

8 us. If he's able to spell it in his English, which is certainly better

9 than my Serbo-Croatian, maybe it would assist everybody.

10 THE INTERPRETER: It's L-i-v-a-d-e.

11 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, while I'm on my feet -- and I will try

12 not to interrupt again -- I just want to point out two things, please, for

13 the Chamber by way of objections. I would have two standing objections to

14 some of the inquiries in the last few minutes. One is I think -- although

15 I have not gotten on my feet -- I think there are a number of instances

16 now in the last 15 or 20 minutes or so where it has not been clear whether

17 the witness is speaking out of personal knowledge or if any foundation has

18 been laid about what he knows about some of the questions that have been

19 put to him, other than great generalities. I would ask counsel -- well,

20 through the Chamber, I would ask the Chamber to have counsel provide more

21 foundation on the basis for this witness's knowledge for some of these

22 matters.

23 Also, I would also mention to the Chamber that in terms of

24 these -- other alleged atrocities, you will notice, again, that the

25 Prosecution has not been on its feet. However, I would remind the

Page 2875












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Page 2876

1 Chamber, I would make the point to the Chamber to ask what the relevance

2 of these are. I think the Chamber will know it is not a Defence. The

3 fact that the other side committed crimes is not a Defence. I think we

4 could spend a lot of times on these matters, perhaps, to no fruitful end.

5 Thank you.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 Mr. Krsnik, maybe you could give us a more clear idea of what all

8 these things happened, what's the background, whether it's relevant to

9 this issue and to this particular witness.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I must say that I

11 respect my colleague, Mr. Scott, very much, but I really don't understand

12 him. Mr. Scott inquired about two actions in Doljani for quite some time,

13 and I cleared up the question. There were two actions, one action in

14 which Mr. Cikota was killed, and the second action came when the Muslims

15 had the counterattack. And during that counterattack, that horrible

16 massacre took place about which the Prosecution knows because all this has

17 been presented to the Prosecution. We do not know at what stage this is,

18 but we know that the Prosecution knows about it.

19 And I apologise for the words I will be using, because the word

20 "slaughter" was used. The HVO was called to help the civilian

21 population, and this was interrupted by the European Monitors. Now, what

22 is not clear here. I tried to get that answer from the witness and ask

23 the question accordingly. I didn't want the cause and the effect to be

24 mixed up.

25 The witness mentioned all this, and now we have managed to clear

Page 2877

1 up that situation. One action was interrupted, to repeat once again,

2 because Mr. Cikota had been killed, and the second action was interrupted

3 because of the European Monitors. And when this happened -- well, I

4 mentioned Stipica Livade, and we know the date as well.

5 THE COURT: Thank you. Thank you for your explanation. You may

6 proceed, but just bear in mind the objections raised by the Prosecution.

7 You may proceed.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I always

9 take into account the objections of our colleagues.

10 Q. Now, I would kindly ask you to talk about the travel of Mr. Tuta

11 from Zagreb to Siroki, and I would like to ask you some questions on that

12 subject.

13 First question: Do you personally know whether Mr. Susak and

14 Mr. Naletilic, whether they had grown up together in Siroki, whether they

15 went to school together and that they spent their childhood and youth in

16 Siroki?

17 A. Well, I was told that that was the case.

18 Q. Do you know after having finished high school, both had to leave

19 to emigrate -- actually, because of the Serbo-communist policies, they had

20 to go for political reasons, for political emigration?

21 A. I knew about Tuta, that he had been abroad, but I didn't know that

22 about Susak.

23 Q. Do you know whether the whole family of Mr. Susak had lived in

24 Siroki Brijeg the whole time, and even today?

25 A. I know that his niece lived there, but I couldn't tell you for

Page 2878

1 sure whether his parents lived there.

2 Q. Mr. Naletilic had business in Zagreb. Did he have his enterprise,

3 his family, his sister, were they in Zagreb?

4 A. No, they, too, were in Siroki Brijeg.

5 Q. In Siroki Brijeg, only his brother lived, his sister lived -- one

6 of his sisters lived in Zagreb, the other in Rijeka. Do you know that?

7 A. No. I didn't know exactly where the rest of -- where all his

8 family lived.

9 Q. Well, we will not discuss the issue further. I wanted to say that

10 Naletilic had business premises at the Holiday Inn Hotel and other

11 businesses in Zagreb. Did you know about that?

12 A. Yes, I knew about that.

13 Q. Do you think that it would be normal for someone to have to go to

14 Zagreb frequently for his businesses and not for other reasons that you

15 mentioned; would it have been possible for him to go to Zagreb on

16 business?

17 A. It would have been possible. But if you're in command of such a

18 unit, then the unit should be the forefront, you know, and not your

19 business.

20 Q. That is your own conclusion, if you agree with me?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Would you be so kind: In your statement that you made to the

23 Prosecution, you said that on May 9th there was a police action in Mostar,

24 you hadn't taken part in it, and you have no personal knowledge about that

25 incident?

Page 2879

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. And we cannot discuss the matter because you have no personal

3 knowledge about the matter?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. You mentioned the Croatian army. Do you know whether -- do you

6 know that people who were born in Siroki Brijeg, like Mr. Naletilic, and

7 who lived in Zagreb and in Croatia, that they voluntarily came to the area

8 of Herzegovina and they did not wish to take off the insignia of their

9 former army, although there were orders to take them off because of the

10 monitors and the Muslim propaganda? Do you know about that?

11 A. No, I don't know anything about it. I know that in some units and

12 also around the Gornji Vakuf area, that there was a unit from Zagreb and I

13 think one from Split. I think that's the 104 or 107 Brigade that were

14 there. You could see that from the stickers on the cars and also from

15 some markings on the trucks.

16 Q. But you do not know that they had frozen their status in the

17 Croatian army and had come as volunteers?

18 A. I don't know anything about that.

19 Q. Please, now let us come to a third period of time, the arrival of

20 Mr. Simang to Siroki Brijeg, who came whilst you were in hospital. Is

21 that correct?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. During your convalescence, when you came back from the hospital in

24 Split, were you entrusted with duties of recruiting foreigners, to talk

25 with them, to interview them, to make assessments whether the person was

Page 2880

1 to be taken in or not?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Simang did not have to go through that procedure; is that

4 correct?

5 A. That's right, because he was already a member of the unit when I

6 came back from the hospital.

7 Q. We will go back to the subject of Mr. Simang because we have to

8 clarify certain issues. This will be towards the end of my examination.

9 But before that, let us resolve another matter.

10 In the statement that you made to the Prosecution, you had

11 categorically stated that you had never heard of a place called

12 "Dobrkovici"? It's written correctly in the transcript.

13 A. That doesn't ring any bell.

14 Q. Also in that statement, you said as far as you knew, the KB had

15 never taken part in any looting?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. You also stated that at the tobacco station, that you couldn't

18 keep prisoners there, even if you wanted to, and that there was no prison

19 there?

20 A. We didn't have any prison in Siroki Brijeg and in the Tobacco

21 Factory at the lowest, because in the basement you had the weapons depot

22 and there were other objects there. The first floor, that's where --

23 places and rooms where people slept.

24 Q. Please, in response to the question by the Prosecutor when he

25 showed you the house where it was said that it was Tuta's house, you saw

Page 2881

1 some prisoners, can you allow for the possibility that this was in 1992?

2 A. No, I don't think it was '92. It must have been in '93.

3 Q. Was it the beginning of 1993?

4 A. Maybe, but I couldn't tell you for sure.

5 Q. Are you aware that a canal was being dug for a relay station, a

6 radio station, which was quite near Tuta's house?

7 A. I don't know anything about that.

8 Q. Okay. Please, let us go back to Mr. Simang. Are you aware that

9 after he returned from Germany, where he gave false interviews to the

10 television, which caused anger with you also, and all this for the sake of

11 money, did he mix with the Mafia, from which he had escaped, and then the

12 Mafia looked for him afterwards?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. Had he ever been to Rastani?

15 A. He may have been there once or twice, but he couldn't be used

16 there anyway.

17 Q. Can you tell me, where were the Muslim positions in Rastani?

18 A. No, I couldn't tell you, because we didn't have much influence on

19 that. I mean we were manning the Bofors, and we were only used or set in

20 action when we were needed. So I don't know how the confrontation lines

21 would be running over there.

22 Q. Then you don't know essentially what kind of action it was; isn't

23 that right?

24 A. Yes, you could say so, because there were quite a lot of

25 operations there. It would change, you know, so it was difficult to sort

Page 2882

1 of put that in a time line.

2 Q. Please tell me whether -- in DDR, were you charged with forging

3 cheques?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. Tell me -- now we shall talk about the verdict. So you truly --

6 you do not know the name of the person because of whom you have been

7 sentenced to life? When the Prosecutor asked you this, you said you

8 couldn't remember.

9 A. That's right, I don't know the name.

10 Q. If I remind you, will you remember his name then?

11 A. I don't think so, because at the time of the trial, I mean, there

12 were many names that were put to me, and none of them told me anything.

13 Q. Was that person - I'll tell you his name, his name was Heintz -

14 whether he was admitted through you or without your knowledge and perhaps

15 presented -- introduced himself falsely as a doctor?

16 A. This so-called "Heintz", that's the one whom I shot. He should

17 have left the unit under the order of Tuta, but then it was postponed

18 until the beginning of the next week, until the Monday, and he was to

19 leave Herzegovina at 8.00 by bus. He didn't want to, and then he -- you

20 know, he didn't want to. And the doctor you mentioned, that has to do

21 with Simang. I don't know exactly -- exactly what the exact name of that

22 man is. He pretended to be a doctor, and he was employed by Tuta.

23 Q. Well, the other one who pretended to be a doctor, you were also

24 tried for his murder at the German courts?

25 A. I was accused of aiding and abetting, because they said that I was

Page 2883

1 in -- quartered in one room with Simang and that, therefore, inevitably I

2 must have known about it.

3 Q. And for that murder, you got a second life term; is that correct?

4 A. No, no, there was just one sentence for life imprisonment.

5 Q. Sorry. It says in the verdict: Life sentence for the murder of

6 Heintz, for Bieske, and the accumulated sentence was a sentence of life

7 imprisonment.

8 A. That was -- they were concurrent sentences.

9 Q. Please tell me, Simang then took skull chains from Simang [sic]

10 and $18 and two gold chains?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. And from Bieske, whom he killed, according to the verdict of the

13 German court, he took a car, a Skoda 120L, which he used later on; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. His motives were material gain?

17 A. Yes, that's how it was seen.

18 Q. Could you kindly answer the following question: Did you admit

19 immediately to Mr. Naletilic that you had killed Mr. Heintz, but only when

20 you were clearing the table when the German police came?

21 A. I said that only when the German police came, when the German

22 police wanted to arrest me in Imotski. And they said to Tuta, "We could

23 arrest him now and take him to Germany," because we were still on Croatian

24 territory, but Tuta said it can't be done. Unfortunately, his word and

25 his order was applicable there and up to Split, and that's why, you know,

Page 2884












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Page 2885

1 it couldn't be done, and I was taken to Siroki Brijeg.

2 Q. That's all right. I'm simply asking you whether you had admitted

3 immediately to Tuta that you had killed that man, or perhaps during a

4 different -- second conversation when he called you and you said that you

5 wanted to clear the table, and then you admitted that you killed him. So

6 Tuta had known that during the first conversation?

7 A. He didn't know anything about it, Tuta. He said I should admit --

8 I should say what happened, and that's what I did.

9 Q. And my last two questions: Please tell me, the prison that you

10 are -- is it a softer prison than Straubing, which was a prison of a

11 different category?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Is it "no," or "I don't know"? I think that means "I do not

14 know."

15 A. I didn't notice anything. I think to me, it's just the same as in

16 Straubing.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, after consulting my

18 colleagues, I think that we have concluded this examination.

19 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Par.

20 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] The Defence of Vinko Martinovic has no

21 questions because I don't think there is any need for questions, given his

22 testimony.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

24 We'll have 20 minutes break. We'll resume at quarter past 4.00, I

25 think 25 minutes break.

Page 2886

1 --- Break taken at 3.50 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.

3 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, re-examination, please.

4 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:

6 Q. Mr. Mrachacz, as a lead-up to a couple of questions I want to put

7 to you, could you explain to the Chamber, please, the concept of

8 subordination as a military term in connection with a situation where a

9 particular unit or units are put under the command of a particular

10 officer. Can you tell the Chamber what subordination involves?

11 A. I couldn't tell you exactly because only Tuta's commands and

12 orders were decisive. The rest didn't interest me.

13 Q. Let me ask you the question this way: Are you aware of any

14 situations during the time that you were a captain in the

15 Convicts' Battalion where units outside the immediate Convicts' Battalion

16 were placed under Tuta's command for purposes of actions?

17 A. I don't know that.

18 Q. Are you aware of any situations where order units, anti-aircraft

19 weapons, any type of artillery or tanks were placed under or subordinated

20 to Tuta's command?

21 A. No, I don't know that either. Every now and then, we would have

22 units that were attached to it, and there were, for instance, tank units.

23 But I didn't know exactly under whose command those units were.

24 Q. When you say "attached to it," what do you -- attached to what?

25 A. If we had a large-scale operation, I don't know whether it was our

Page 2887

1 unit that was the main driving force or whether there were other units. I

2 don't know about that because I was not in a position to know.

3 Q. Well, going back to your answer a moment ago when you made

4 reference to tank units, for instance, can you assist the Chamber in

5 saying were you aware of any instances during 1993 in which tank units

6 were attached to actions being led by the Convicts' Battalion?

7 A. No, we didn't have any tank units actually, because as far as I

8 know, the tanks we had, they were stationed in the area of Prozor because

9 there, we had the necessary workshops in order -- the workshops that were

10 necessary in order to make them operational.

11 Q. When you said "we had tanks," who is the "we" you were referring

12 to?

13 A. Sometimes we had operations with our units, and we had tanks. I

14 think that they came from the area of Prozor.

15 Q. Directing your attention to approximately April 1993, can you tell

16 the Chamber, please, did Tuta's authority, military authority, after that

17 time expand to more units, or did it decrease to less units? What

18 happened to his authority -- Tuta's authority in 1993 after approximately

19 April?

20 A. I would say that it increased because more units joined us.

21 Q. There was a question -- there were questions to you about the

22 preparation of documents. Sir, were you at all involved in the office

23 staff of the Convicts' Battalion?

24 A. Not all the time, just every now and then.

25 Q. Did you type documents in the headquarters of the

Page 2888

1 Convicts' Battalion?

2 A. No, most of the documents or all the documents were only written

3 in Croatian, and I didn't know the language well enough in order to draft

4 anything in it.

5 Q. And based on what you just said about language, perhaps we can

6 assume what the answer to my next question will be. But for the record, I

7 will ask anyway. Were you involved in using any computers for the

8 preparation of documents, orders, correspondence, et cetera, at any time

9 while you were a member of the Convicts' Battalion?

10 A. I didn't use any technology, didn't use any computers, nothing.

11 Q. Is it fair to say, Mr. Mrachacz, that in terms of the preparation

12 of documents in the office -- in the offices, you would not have direct

13 personal knowledge of that?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. With the Chamber's permission, I want to touch very briefly on

16 three areas of your testimony just so there's no misunderstanding about

17 the scope of the evidence you provide to this Chamber. Has it been your

18 testimony these last few days, sir, that concerning the attack on Sovici,

19 you were not a direct participant in that attack, except that you drove a

20 supply truck?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. Concerning the events in Mostar on the 9th of May, 1993, is it

23 correct that you were not a participant in the infantry attacks on the 9th

24 and 10th of May, 1993, in Mostar?

25 A. No, I didn't take part, because when there were infantry actions,

Page 2889

1 operations, I wasn't present. Then I was mainly in Siroki Brijeg because

2 I had a very good rapport with the civilian population.

3 Q. And the final question in this regard about the question of camps

4 and prisoners: Is it the balance of your testimony, sir, that you had no

5 direct connection or knowledge concerning camps -- detention camps or

6 prison facilities used by the HVO?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. When you were in the East German army, sir, can you tell the

9 Chamber, what was the authority of a superior officer to discipline his

10 troops for misconduct?

11 A. As the case in every army, you know, he's detained and, if the

12 case is particularly serious, then is really imprisoned or is thrown out

13 of the army.

14 Q. As a military man, Mr. Mrachacz, have you known -- is it standard

15 military doctrine, if you will, that a superior officer has command or at

16 least should have command over his subordinate troops?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. Can you tell the Chamber any situation that you're aware of where

19 Tuta failed to have command authority over the Convicts' Battalion? Were

20 you aware of any instance when you think there was a breakdown of command,

21 that Tuta did not exercise full command authority over any and all

22 components of the Convicts' Battalion?

23 A. I don't have any knowledge of that.

24 Q. When you were questioned by the German authorities, you indicated

25 that Tuta was present and was involved in this meeting. Can you tell the

Page 2890

1 Chamber how it was that Tuta came to be involved in the German authorities

2 meeting with you about these charges against you?

3 A. Why he was there, I don't know.

4 Q. Well, how did he come to be there; do you know?

5 A. Well, he came with a vehicle, I mean.

6 Q. Are you telling the Chamber that he just showed up at this meeting

7 unannounced?

8 A. No. I suppose that it had been prearranged, you know, between him

9 and the German authorities.

10 Q. And do you again understand -- did you have any knowledge or

11 understanding of what Tuta's role was there, why he was attending this

12 meeting at all?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Questions were asked of you about KB members, Convicts' Battalion

15 members, being disciplined by being imprisoned at Ljubuski, and then you

16 said "sometimes expelled" because they had done something wrong. Can you

17 tell the Chamber, if you recall, when did you kill this man, Bieske?

18 A. Bieske is this so-called doctor. I had nothing to do. This was

19 Simang's business and also an Austrian's. I was convicted for that, but I

20 had nothing to do with it.

21 Q. Do you recall approximately when it was that he was killed?

22 A. Could be in July or August. I'm not so sure.

23 Q. And what was the state of knowledge within the Convicts' Battalion

24 that this Bieske had been killed by Simang?

25 A. We only knew what we'd heard from Simang himself. And on the

Page 2891

1 order of Tuta, all the people were -- the weapons were taken from

2 everybody.

3 Q. I'm sorry. You're going to have to explain, I think, that last

4 part of your answer. On what order were weapons taken from everybody?

5 A. On Tuta's order, the people were disarmed.

6 Q. What people were disarmed?

7 A. Simang, the two Austrians, and they had to give their arms, and

8 one was expelled from the town and sent to Capljina.

9 Q. Who was that?

10 A. I think he was called "Niedereitner" [phoen].

11 Q. Tell the Chamber, please, did Tuta take any action on Simang for

12 the killing of Bieske? Was he sent to Ljubuski, was he expelled? Was any

13 disciplinary action taken against Bieske?

14 A. No, nothing happened further.

15 Q. This man that you called - and I hope I say it correctly -

16 "Braunreuter," this other German mercenary, when he killed the French

17 mercenary, was Braunreuter imprisoned, or expelled, or punished in any way

18 for killing the French mercenary?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And this was the same killing that Tuta said essentially to keep

21 your nose out of it; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When was this man -- excuse me. When was this man Heintz killed?

24 A. That was shortly after the operation in Doljani.

25 Q. So in April 1993?

Page 2892

1 A. April or May.

2 Q. And who knew about that killing?

3 A. Only me and Simang, because I'd been given the order and I

4 couldn't speak to Tuta any more that day and so I couldn't get in touch

5 with him, and so that's why I had to take some action.

6 Q. Well, was there any time after that -- did that become, as things

7 often do, a question -- a topic of conversation among the Convicts'

8 Battalion? Did it become known that this had occurred?

9 A. Not at all. We didn't speak about it any more. It was all over

10 and done with.

11 Q. Just so the record is abundantly clear on this point, my last

12 question: Was it your position, sir, that you killed Heintz based on an

13 outstanding order by Tuta?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And, I'm sorry, I did have one other question. And were you ever

16 disciplined, imprisoned, or expelled from the Convicts' Battalion for

17 killing Heintz?

18 A. No.

19 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I have no other questions.

20 I do feel obligated to tell the Chamber - and I'm not trying to

21 have a second bite at the apple, so to speak - but in light of some

22 questions that Judge Clark asked of a prior witness about the second

23 formation, the 2nd Guards Brigade, this witness would be in a position to

24 talk about that. I didn't go into it in direct examination because, given

25 the concerns about time, I didn't think that, quite honestly, it went to

Page 2893












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Page 2894

1 the core of his most important testimony. But I just feel obligated to

2 tell the Chamber, and especially to Judge Clark, that if the Chamber was

3 so interested, this witness, I think, can tell -- has specific information

4 about the formation of the 2nd Brigade and the role of the Convicts'

5 Battalion in that formation.

6 I have no further questions, Mr. President. Thank you.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any questions from Judge Clark?

8 JUDGE CLARK: Yes, I think that, Mr. Scott, you have cleared up

9 many of my queries, but I just want a couple of maybe even more direct

10 questions.

11 Questioned by the Court:

12 JUDGE CLARK: My understanding, Mr. Mrachacz, is that while you

13 were serving with the Convicts' Battalion, that your main function was

14 dealing with and firing the Bofors gun.

15 A. Yes, that's right, but that's only in '93.

16 JUDGE CLARK: And during that period, in '93, I think you were

17 asked about a number of locations of which you had no knowledge. They

18 were all in '93, those last three questions by the Prosecution, those were

19 Sovici, Mostar, and camps and prison facilities.

20 My understanding is that because you were involved in the hills

21 with this heavy gun, that you weren't involved in any infantry or

22 front-line action?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 JUDGE CLARK: Now, the other -- what did you do when you weren't

25 using the Bofors? Did you go back and do camp duties at Siroki Brijeg?

Page 2895

1 A. I've told you already. Either I supplied the troops with food or

2 munitions to the various bases or I stayed directly in the city -- in the

3 town, and I was on leave, on rest and recreation.

4 JUDGE CLARK: Yes, you did say that. So when you weren't using

5 the heavy gun, you were driving the truck or otherwise involved in

6 noninfantry action?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 JUDGE CLARK: Now, in April or May of 1993, you told us, I think,

9 on Friday that a number of British mercenaries had left the

10 Convicts' Battalion and gone over to fight on the other side.

11 A. Yes, that's right. But that was already late '92.

12 JUDGE CLARK: And as a result of this action by the mercenaries,

13 you said it was made clear to all of you, the foreigners, that you were

14 free to leave at any time, but if you went over to the Muslim army, the

15 BiH, perhaps, that you would be shot dead?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 JUDGE CLARK: Would that action of being shot dead be in the form

18 of a judicial execution following a court martial, or was it a sort of

19 ambush that you had to watch your back?

20 A. How it would have happened, I don't know. But you had to pay

21 attention, to be careful, that's for sure.

22 JUDGE CLARK: So if you crossed over to the enemy line, you were a

23 target, and you were warned about this in advance?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE CLARK: Was there any question of a court martial or an

Page 2896

1 inquiry or a finding by a team of superior officers?

2 A. I don't know anything about that.

3 JUDGE CLARK: Now, in relation to the French mercenary whose body

4 you helped to remove and who you think was -- the Frenchman was shot by

5 Mr. Braunreuter, was that an execution?

6 A. I don't know the reason for that either.

7 JUDGE CLARK: You have no idea whether or -- whether he crossed

8 over to the enemy line?

9 A. No. The man was found in Siroki Brijeg.

10 JUDGE CLARK: I see. So we leave that alone, then.

11 In relation to the shooting of Mr. Heintz, which I think that

12 you've said on a number of occasions was pursuant to the order which you

13 had received from your commander, Mr. Naletilic or Mr. Tuta --

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE CLARK: -- was that an order that was repeated, or was it

16 the same order that was given to you the previous November, December '92?

17 A. Yes, that was the order, and that wasn't repeated.

18 JUDGE CLARK: It was a standing order?

19 A. Yes, that was a standing order.

20 JUDGE CLARK: As an army officer at that stage, and a man with a

21 career in the East German army, was it your duty to notify the family of

22 this soldier that he was now deceased?

23 A. No.

24 JUDGE CLARK: Is there any reason why that wasn't done in this

25 situation where it would be normal in all other situations?

Page 2897

1 A. Yeah, but we didn't have any name for that man. There was a

2 surname, a nickname, and the only name we knew about concerning him was

3 "Heintz."

4 JUDGE CLARK: So there was no situation of anybody having identity

5 documents around their neck, what are called dog tags?

6 A. No, we didn't have that.

7 JUDGE CLARK: You didn't have that system.

8 Now, I think you said to Mr. Scott very recently that the orders

9 that you were concerned with were Tuta's commands and orders, which were

10 decisive, and they were the ones you were concerned with?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 JUDGE CLARK: Did you have any obligation or duty to notify

13 Mr. Tuta that you had carried out his command and that you had executed

14 Mr. Heintz, who was deserting?

15 A. No.

16 JUDGE CLARK: Did Mr. Tuta know that Mr. Heintz had been executed

17 by you?

18 A. No, I didn't say anything about that.

19 JUDGE CLARK: But you told us on Friday, if I understand your

20 evidence, that after you had been visited by the German police, who were

21 investigating the death of Mr. Heintz, that you had a conversation with

22 Mr. Tuta, and that he gave you some advice.

23 A. That's right. But Tuta only said that I should tell the German

24 authorities what had happened, and that's what I did.

25 JUDGE CLARK: And did you also say on Friday that Mr. Tuta said to

Page 2898

1 you that it might be as well for you to go to Germany because you were

2 only carrying out a command?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 JUDGE CLARK: And when you went to Germany and were tried for the

5 murder of Mr. Heintz, did Mr. Tuta give evidence on your behalf or furnish

6 the court with a statement to the effect that you were carrying out his

7 command?

8 A. No, there wasn't any explanation, nothing at all.

9 JUDGE CLARK: You were left on your own?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE CLARK: Have you appealed the decision?

12 A. Yes, we did, but it was rejected with the motivation that there

13 was no other evidence as that evidence as established by the court.

14 JUDGE CLARK: Did you write to Mr. Tuta to ask him to furnish a

15 statement to corroborate your story?

16 A. We tried to, but I don't know whether it was carried on. Once I

17 talked on the phone with Tuta, and Andabak also at the beginning, and they

18 said that they would send money for an attorney, but there wasn't any

19 monies. I couldn't get any attorney, and that's how it came to be.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you very much. I hope I haven't upset you by

21 asking those questions. I don't mean to intrude. And thank you very much

22 for assisting.

23 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge Clark's question?

24 Mr. Scott?

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes? No? You have any questions?

Page 2899

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps Judge Diarra

2 has some questions before me.

3 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] I had said that I did not.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Because --

5 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] When I was asked whether I had a

6 last question, I said that I did not. Thank you very much.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. But Mr. Scott

8 and I just looked at Judge Diarra at one and the same moment so as simply

9 to show that we know the procedure.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I have a few questions, and I

12 deliberately avoided asking them because I didn't want to go into that.

13 Tell me, Witness, did Tuta know that you would do it and did you ever tell

14 him about your intention?

15 A. No, I didn't talk about it with him, because I had his order that

16 was decided, I executed it, and I carried out the mission as was

17 scheduled.

18 Q. Witness, perhaps you abused or misused that order?

19 A. No, I don't think so.

20 Q. Can you give me at least one other name of any mercenary who ended

21 up in this way without -- rather than being expelled from the territory?

22 A. Well, there was this so-called doctor as well.

23 Q. Listen. The final German judgement, which we shall get through

24 another witness, Mr. Simang, and then the Defence will probably produce

25 it, because in its final judgement the German court established that

Page 2900

1 Mr. Tuta and Mr. Andabak never -- never punished any mercenaries in this

2 way, that is, they never ordered any executions, they only expelled them.

3 The German judgement is absolutely --

4 MR. SCOTT: Was there a question there or -- I didn't hear a

5 question.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you have to phrase your questions in

7 a proper way.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honours. I did

9 ask my question. I didn't know what the transcript says. My question is

10 very simple because, after all, in a leading question I can phrase a

11 question as a statement and seek confirmation.

12 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm sorry to intervene at this late

13 hour. I think the problem is, I submit - I could be wrong - there's an

14 error in the transcript, because what is listed as an answer from the

15 witness is, in fact, Mr. Krsnik continuing to talk. It wasn't an answer

16 but it was a question that: "Well, we will probably produce the

17 judgement," et cetera, and it went on, and there was never a question put

18 to the witness.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe there's some mistakes at this late hour.

20 Mr. Krsnik, would you please rephrase your question?

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

22 Q. The German judgement established that you had misused -- that you

23 had betrayed the trust and committed this murder on your own or of your

24 own will?

25 A. That's how it was interpreted, but that doesn't correspond to the

Page 2901

1 reality. Yes, because I was presented as being a mercenary.

2 Q. Witness, if this Court establishes -- finds somewhere some command

3 responsibility, do you think there should be a new case, that there should

4 be a re-trial of your case?

5 A. Well, in some way, because during the trial there were a few

6 things that were not proper.

7 Q. So this testimony is very important for you; it is very important

8 for you to establish that it was an order that came from Tuta?

9 A. No. The main thing here at stake is that it was noticed that we

10 were in the unit of a regular army and not within a unit of -- a mercenary

11 unit, as it were.

12 Q. You didn't answer my question. Please. If this Court -- if this

13 Court establishes command responsibility, and it seems that you'd really

14 like that because in that way you could seek the revision of your trial in

15 Germany?

16 A. Even if it were so, that would be good. But, anyway, I've just

17 about already served half of the time, so I could serve -- you know, I'll

18 find some way of serving the other half.

19 Q. And my last question: When did you admit to Mr. Tuta that you had

20 committed the murder, and when did he hear that you had done that for the

21 first time?

22 A. It was -- for me, it was not a murder. And, secondly, I told him

23 on the day when we were together with the German authorities.

24 Q. And it was the first time that he heard about it, and then he told

25 you, in view of your confession, to surrender to the German police; is

Page 2902












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Page 2903

1 that it? This is my final question. And, please, for the sake of truth,

2 is that how it was?

3 A. First he told me in June that I should turn me in to the German

4 authorities. Then we send them a fax in which I said when and exactly

5 where I would arrive.

6 Q. And the very moment when Tuta learned what you had done, this

7 reaction came; that is, he immediately said that you should turn yourself

8 in to the German authorities, is it?

9 A. No, only later.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. I do not have any more

11 questions.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for giving the evidence.

13 Our special thanks will go to the German interpreters, both in

14 this courtroom and in the booths. Without your assistance, it is

15 impossible for us to hear this witness. We are also very grateful to the

16 authorities in Germany for their assistance and cooperation.

17 Witness, you may leave now.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, would you please refresh our

20 recollections concerning the tendering of the documents at this stage?

21 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. In terms of this witness or -- I

22 think with this witness, we tendered all the -- there were only several.

23 My apologies. We tendered -- it's been tendered before, I think, through

24 the witness Van Hecke, but just so the record is clear, we continued to

25 use with a number of the witnesses, and it has been tendered and, if

Page 2904

1 necessary, tendered again. One was Prosecution Exhibit P704, which is the

2 so-called roster of the Convicts' Battalion. That has been used with a

3 number of witnesses. We have also tendered -- my apologies. I haven't

4 written this down separately on a piece of paper.

5 There was Exhibit 26.9, which was the photograph of the Tobacco

6 Factory, and this witness circled the building where Tuta's headquarters

7 was located. There was the Exhibit 26.11, which was the Park Hotel, where

8 this witness testified he was accommodated. Just a couple more. I can do

9 this. There was Exhibit P40, which is the photograph of Cikota, which I

10 think has already been admitted as part of Exhibits 1 to 53. But if

11 there's any question about that, Exhibit P40 was a photograph of Cikota.

12 Exhibit P36 is a photograph taken at Cikota's funeral and a part of an

13 article that was with that. The witness testified that he saw Tuta,

14 Praljak, Andabak and others in that photograph. And I believe the others

15 were the two photographs concerning Tuta's villa, which were Exhibits 25.5

16 and 25.6, which again have been previously admitted. But if there's any

17 doubt, we tender those. I believe that's it, Your Honour. Thank you.

18 THE COURT: Thank you. The Exhibits P1 to P53 have already been

19 admitted into evidence.

20 How about the Document P704, is there any objection from the

21 Defence side?

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there is an objection,

23 and what an objection. I think it is simply inconceivable to think that

24 such evidence can be admitted into evidence of such a universal court,

25 because the origin of these documents is unknown. All we know is they

Page 2905

1 were snatched by force. We have been objecting as of day one. You have

2 given us the deadline by which we have to explain it all, and we shall do

3 it. I won't go into it now. We still have some days left of those 30

4 days. And we shall explain very clearly why we are objecting to the

5 admission of all the documents, not only P704, but why we're objecting to

6 the admission of all the documents that were snatched by force from the

7 Tobacco Station where they could have, indeed, been planted by whoever or

8 tampered with by whoever.

9 We just looked at 704. It's not only the signature and seal are

10 missing, and yet this is a payroll list, so how can you pay any salary

11 without a seal, without a signature, and then produce it as evidence? So

12 we are objecting to it, but we shall write about this all in our written

13 submission regarding our objections within the 30-day period that was

14 given us.

15 Now, Your Honours, if there are no other questions regarding this,

16 I should like to touch upon a completely different topic, with your leave,

17 of course.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, please. You may proceed.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am very sorry to have

20 to tax your patience with these facts, but I think they become very

21 important. An appointment with the dentist has not been made to this day,

22 and he is really suffering. He is in very severe pain. Now he'll get

23 angry with me, because I'm saying this. He does not want to obstruct the

24 proceedings of this Court, but he simply cannot endure this pain. He

25 cannot endure these whole day sessions. And we have already prepared a

Page 2906

1 request -- we have filed it, and I believe you will receive it tomorrow --

2 not to work Wednesday afternoons, just as we are not working Friday

3 afternoons, because he simply cannot manage these long sessions. Today

4 when I talked to him, he said please don't do anything, let the

5 proceedings take their course, but I think it should be done. We wrote it

6 down, we filed it, and I believe Your Honours will receive our submission

7 tomorrow morning.

8 I really fail to understand, especially as you told me that he

9 enjoy a better treatment than you and I, but it has been a fortnight, and

10 he still hasn't an appointment -- his appointment with the dentist has not

11 been made. I really feel embarrassed to have to ask you about this, for

12 your intervention, but I do not know who else to turn any more. That is

13 one thing.

14 And finally, you see, it is 5.00 now, Your Honours. I really do

15 not know how shall I be able to prepare myself for the cross-examination

16 tomorrow. We have another witness, five hours were envisaged for him, for

17 the direct examination. I really do not see how the Defence will be able

18 to prepare for that witness. I believe I have to inform the Court for all

19 these matters, and I apologise for taking your time.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much, -- to bring to our

21 attention your client's problem with his tooth. I think that's the

22 problem of the well-organised society; that is, everything will go

23 according to appointment. This Trial Chamber will instruct the registrar

24 to do her best to arrange those appointments.

25 And as for whether we have the trial in the Wednesday afternoon, I

Page 2907












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Page 2908

1 think we have to read your submissions first, and then make the

2 decisions. I think that's all I could say at this moment.

3 So we'll adjourn until 9.30 tomorrow morning.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

5 5.07 p.m., to be reconvened on

6 Tuesday, the 25th day of September, 2001,

7 at 9.30 a.m.