Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3011

 1                          Wednesday, 26 September 2001

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Call the case, please.

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is Case Number

 7    IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Scott.

 9            MR. SCOTT:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, if you have other business,

10    Mr. President, you could certainly proceed.  I just wanted to have one

11    minute of the Chamber's time, please, before the witness is brought in.

12    But I can take it in any order if you would like to -- if you have

13    something else to --

14            JUDGE LIU:  There's some administrative matters I would like to

15    say before I give you the floor.

16            MR. SCOTT:  Yes.

17            JUDGE LIU:  Yesterday, the Trial Chamber heard arguments of both

18    parties with regard to the time schedule problem for this week caused by

19    Mr. Naletilic's dentist appointment on Thursday, 27th, September at 11.00

20    a.m.  The Trial Chamber accepts the dental treatment of Mr. Naletilic is

21    of a certain urgency, and he should be enable to see the dentist on

22    Thursday.

23            The Trial Chamber ordered the registrar to look into the

24    allegations that Mr. Naletilic has not been provided with pain killing

25    medication for a certain period and report back to the Trial Chamber.  The

Page 3012

 1    registrar is further called upon by the Trial Chamber to adequately

 2    monitor and ensure the further treatment of Mr. Naletilic's teeth

 3    problems.

 4            Lastly, the Trial Chamber asks the registrar to keep in mind the

 5    Court schedule of this Trial Chamber.  If the scheduling of any further

 6    medical appointments should become necessary, such appointments should, in

 7    general, be scheduled before and after the regular sitting hours, which

 8    are 9.30 a.m. and 4 p.m., and on Friday afternoon after 1.00 p.m.

 9            As to Defence argument that the trial cannot commence in the

10    absence of Mr. Naletilic, the Trial Chamber wishes to point out very

11    clearly that generally, this Trial Chamber holds the view that short-term

12    absence of the accused does not prevent the Trial Chamber from commencing

13    the trial, provided that the accused is represented by the counsel during

14    his absence.

15            In this regard, the Trial Chamber will not allow the delay of a

16    trial by medical appointments that may become necessary or desirable.  It

17    is only for the particular circumstances of Mr. Naletilic's treatment this

18    week and the special importance of the witness to be heard that the Trial

19    Chamber, nevertheless, grants the motion of the accused, that the trial

20    will not be commenced during his absence on Thursday morning.

21            Due to the oft-discussed particular circumstances in this trial

22    week, the Trial Chamber decided to sit on Thursday and Friday as follows:

23    On Thursday, September 27th, we will sit only in the afternoon from 2.00

24    p.m. until 5:30 p.m.  On Friday, September 28th, we will sit during the

25    regular court hours for the morning session, and in addition, from 2.30 to

Page 3013

 1    5.30 p.m., if this will become necessary to complete the Prosecution's

 2    witnesses for this week.

 3            As for the second week of October, as already announced earlier

 4    this week, Trial Chamber 1, Section A, will not sit in the first week of

 5    October.  Due to additional professional obligations of the Judges, the

 6    Trial Chamber will sit in the second week of October only, from Monday

 7    morning, October 8th, until and including Thursday morning, October 11th.

 8    The Trial Chamber will not sit on Thursday afternoon and on Friday

 9    morning, October 12th.  The trial will resume on October 15th, 2001, with

10    the normal court hours.  This Trial Chamber will also not sit on

11    October 24th, because that is a UN holiday.

12            And yesterday, at the end of the afternoon session, Mr. Meek

13    raised an issue of the search and the seizure warrant.  Due to the tight

14    time schedule of the rest of this week, we will not discuss this issue any

15    further in the Court at this point since it has, however, not become

16    entirely clear to the Trial Chamber what kind of relief the Defence is

17    actually requiring.  We request Mr. Meek to file a written explanation of

18    your request and file it according to the rules for filing documents in

19    this case.  Thank you.

20            Mr. Prosecutor, did you talk to your witness yesterday?

21            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Yes, Your Honour.  I talked to him in the

22    morning.  It was a very brief conversation, mostly about the problems of

23    behaviour in the courtroom and the manner of answering questions to both

24    parties, to the Prosecutor and to the Defence.  It seems to me that

25    Witness U understood that he should behave himself properly here in the

Page 3014

 1    courtroom, and I hope that today's session with this witness can be

 2    shorter.  The Defence will, of course...

 3            JUDGE LIU:  I think all of us -- at least me, have to get used to

 4    the adversary systems in this courtroom, including your witness.

 5            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Yes, and myself.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  With regard to the afternoon session, the Trial

 7    Chamber wishes to express the following, because unfortunately, it seems

 8    to me I have to remind counsel of their professional duties in general,

 9    and specifically with the Trial Chamber's order with the questioning of

10    witnesses which was issued orally at the beginning of this trial.  Once

11    again, the Trial Chamber requests the parties to put all questions to the

12    witness in a short and direct way.  This Trial Chamber will attach only

13    little evidential weight to answers that result from any kind of

14    suggestive questions.  Suggestive questions are such that consist only of

15    a simple confirmation of the suggested answer that has been given to the

16    witness by the questioning parties themselves.

17            This Trial Chamber will further not tolerate any longer any

18    discussion between counsel and the witnesses in the courtroom.  It is the

19    professional duty of the party who calls the witness to ensure that the

20    witness fully understands that his function in the courtroom is to give

21    his evidence to the Trial Chamber and that he is not allowed to enter into

22    inquiries with the questioning party.  At the same time, it is the

23    professional duty of the questioning party in the court to prevent such

24    debates instead of contributing further to it.

25            Lastly, the Trial Chamber once again calls upon the parties to pay

Page 3015

 1    due respect to witnesses during the questioning and to act like

 2    professional counsel in this regard.

 3            Yes, Mr. Scott.

 4            MR. SCOTT:  May it please the Court, we appreciate all that

 5    information very much, especially concerning scheduling.  So it assists

 6    us, obviously, in planning, and we thank the Court for that information.

 7            In that same regard, I just want to alert the Court - and again

 8    for witness scheduling reasons - if the cross-examination of this first

 9    witness is not completed by the 11.00 break, and again I'm not meaning to

10    exert any pressure on the cross-examination of the witness but only as a

11    scheduling matter, we would propose to the Chamber that if we're not

12    finished by 11.00, that at the 11.30 time, when we resume at 11.30, that

13    we be able to take the next witness out of order, who will be a very short

14    witness, we think, and we can complete that witness in a very short time,

15    we think, and allow that person to actually leave The Hague today.

16            The realities are, as I understand them with the witness that's

17    presently testifying, that because of the airline schedules to Bosnia, he

18    will not at this point be able to leave until tomorrow in any event

19    because the flights tend to depart in the morning hours.  I hope that --

20    perhaps we will be finished by 11.00.  That would be the best thing,

21    obviously.  But if we're not, Your Honour, we may ask you to assist us in

22    this way.  We do make -- as I'm sure the Chamber knows, we make a

23    considerable effort to try to treat the witnesses as fairly as possible

24    and accommodate them and keep them in The Hague for as short a time as we

25    can.  Thank you.

Page 3016

 1            JUDGE LIU:  Any objections?

 2            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Thank

 3    you very much for the information you have given us.  I simply wish to

 4    note, if you allow me, I have some observation with regard to what my

 5    learned colleague has just said.

 6            I want you to understand that the Defence is very much under

 7    pressure.  You know all the requirements that we have put, and there is a

 8    tremendous burden on us.  I want to have a clear conscience vis-a-vis my

 9    client and vis-a-vis the job that I am performing.  We are doing every --

10    making every effort to do our job correctly, and we are at the very edge

11    of the efforts we can make.  We have been working the whole day, and it is

12    only in the evenings we can write motions and prepare for the

13    cross-examinations, and then we are forced and pressurised to rush

14    things.

15            Your Honours, never in my 25 years of practice that I have found

16    myself in this current situation.  Never, wherever I have defended people,

17    and this I have done across the world, never have I found myself in a

18    situation where, due to time, I cannot reflect on justice.  So, please, I

19    would ask my learned colleagues that have been preparing this case for

20    five full years, the last testimonies they've taken in March 2001 --

21    actually, I believe that there is the witnesses' commission.  We will

22    accept a schedule be -- of course, the Prosecution is here for a longer

23    period of time than the Defence and they know how business must be

24    conducted.  So I kindly ask you, Your Honours, to conclude these

25    proceedings so that the Defence has a clear conscience vis-a-vis their

Page 3017

 1    clients, the Court and God.  Since I'm pressurised by time, I fear that

 2    justice will be -- a detriment will be made to justice.  We must need

 3    time.

 4            These are very serious issues.  This is an entire political

 5    situation going back ten years we are dealing with.  We cannot discuss all

 6    this in a month's time.  All of us come from different parts of the world,

 7    and all of us, we have to learn about culture and political relations and

 8    so on and so forth.  My client has, before this Court, his last

 9    opportunity vis-a-vis himself, his children, and vis-a-vis truth, to come

10    to the material truth, which is something that the Prosecution should be

11    interested in.  We are working towards the truth, whatever the truth may

12    be, and for this we need time.  Thank you, Your Honours.

13            Secondly, finally we have received notice from the Registry that

14    Mrs. Visnja Drenski Lasan has become legal assistant, so I would like to

15    call upon the Court to allow her to be present in the courtroom, because

16    our colleague, Nika Pinter, will have to go to Bosnia-Herzegovina, and so

17    we will only have Visnja Drenski to help us.

18            That will be all, Your Honours.

19            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Krsnik, let me make sure that I understand what

20    you are saying.  That is, you agree that we have another witness at 11.00

21    this morning, but these kind of things could never happen again in the

22    future.  In the future, the Prosecutor will have a much better scheduling

23    of the witness.  Is that what you mean?  Thank you.

24            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour, you notice

25    that the Defence has an honourable attitude to all parties here.

Page 3018

 1            My client, I would like to add something about him.  It is not

 2    easy for him in this courtroom.  During the past six days, he has suffered

 3    tremendously.  He didn't want to cry about this, and work has not been

 4    interrupted.  It is not easy -- the client will, of course, respect the

 5    decision.  And given the problems that I have noted that I would have with

 6    the witness, I have prepared my questions accordingly and I will try to be

 7    as brief as possible.  But please, in future, take into account what I

 8    have just said, because we are really exhausted.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  This Trial Chamber has taken

10    note of what you said about your client's problem, and we have instructed

11    the registrar to look into this matter in the future.

12            Yes, Mr. Seric.

13            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to say also

14    that two very important principles of criminal proceedings, of economy and

15    of justice, are not compatible.  But I would like to say that the

16    principle of economics, which is quite understandable to be respected by

17    the Court, and we know that the Court wants to achieve economy and

18    efficiency in the proceedings and have it focussed in the greatest

19    possible manner on the case and on the schedule, because unless you have a

20    schedule in advance, we cannot have an efficient proceedings.  And I have

21    been a judge too long not to appreciate this.  I truly respect your

22    decisions regardless of the judicial activity and judicial remedies which

23    we will resort to within the frameworks of our code in this country and in

24    the Tribunal.  The guidelines that you have given us are truly something

25    to be respected.

Page 3019

 1            Now, referring to the economy of judicial proceedings, this does

 2    not mean only to be objectivity in pronouncing a sentence, but also a just

 3    conduct of proceedings, so not only the burden of proof is with the

 4    Prosecution but also with the Defence.  We need preparation for

 5    cross-examination.  If we prepared for cross-examination of Witness U

 6    according to a schedule -- we only knew this a day or two in advance, then

 7    every disruption of the schedule makes problems for us.

 8            So this time, I am saying that I agree with the Prosecution, that

 9    we have to be as cooperative as possible, but this causes problems for

10    us.  And may I use this opportunity -- I apologise, Your Honours, for

11    intervening.  It would be most useful to us, if we are trying to be

12    economical and as brief as possible, we would find it most useful, unless

13    we have longer periods of interruption where we can prepare, but in that

14    case, we would very much like to know the schedule in advance for quite a

15    long time, both in connection with the Court, in connection with breaks,

16    one day, two days, the schedule of calling witnesses.  Because I know that

17    the Prosecution has problems calling witnesses because something -- some

18    people just don't want to come, they cannot come on certain dates.  And

19    since we have not had any postponement, we understand all this, what we

20    would at least like to know, not only the daily schedule, the weekly

21    schedule and the schedule for several weeks.

22            I hope that you will appreciate this, and the problems that the

23    Defence is having.  And thank you for taking up so much of your time, but

24    this will, of course, help us because if we lose half an hour, an hour a

25    day, it can be a gain of one week in our work.  If we are briefer and more

Page 3020

 1    efficient in the remaining time at our disposal.

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  Thank you very much for allowing us to

 3    hear the next witness at 11.00.  And this Trial Chamber shares your views

 4    concerning the time schedule.  That's why we announced the time schedule,

 5    not only for this week but for next month.  And I hope in the future the

 6    Prosecutor will provide us another list of witnesses for this month.

 7            And as for the legal status of Ms. Lasan, at the moment I have to

 8    say that this Trial Chamber has not been informed of that notice from the

 9    registrar officially.  And as soon as we got those notification, we'll

10    make our decisions accordingly.  Thank you.

11            Usher, would you please bring the witness in.

12                          [The witness entered court]

13                               WITNESS:  WITNESS U

14                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

15            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Prosecutor, would you please furnish us with a

16    list of the witnesses in accordance with the order for this week and for

17    the week after our court recess, because at least we have to know the

18    updated list for that.

19            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  We will do that.  Thank you.

20            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.

21            Witness, please remember that you are still under the solemn

22    declaration.  And this Trial Chamber has granted you the protective

23    measures.

24            Mr. Krsnik.  You can continue with your cross-examination.

25            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 3021

 1                          Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik: [Continued]

 2       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

 3       A.   Good morning to you.

 4       Q.   We will begin our examination today.  I have prepared myself so as

 5    to have my questions as concise as possible and your answers as brief as

 6    possible.

 7            I think that we stopped yesterday with the question of the

 8    departure of your wife to Belgrade.  And my question was:  Your wife left

 9    by a JNA helicopter to Belgrade?

10       A.   I believe that I answered the question yesterday.  I said that she

11    had departed for Belgrade, but I don't know by which means of conveyance.

12       Q.   Tell me:  From Mostar, you could leave Mostar by all means of

13    conveyance in those days?

14       A.   No, because it was -- if you would go by car to Belgrade, you

15    would have many checkpoints, and some of these routes were illegal and

16    only served to take away property from the passengers.

17       Q.   You can go by car or by any other way?

18       A.   Well, you could go by helicopter organised by the Red Cross, in

19    the same way as convoys of buses would go to Croatia.

20       Q.   The helicopters had the insignia of the Red Cross of the JNA?

21       A.   I know that helicopters had signs of the Red Cross.

22       Q.   You said that your wife had told you that the helicopters had the

23    sign, so you talked about this?

24       A.   Yes, we did, but this does not mean that she flew by helicopter.

25    I don't know why this is so important in this case.

Page 3022

 1       Q.   How did you leave Mostar to Belgrade yourself, by what means of

 2    conveyance?

 3       A.   I went with a freight plane.

 4       Q.   A freight plane of the JNA?

 5       A.   I expect that the plane was a JNA plane.  The pilot was a

 6    civilian.

 7       Q.   At that time, not all of the citizens had the same privilege?

 8       A.   Of course not.  I travelled with my boss, and one of his close

 9    relatives was the commander at the airport, and he arranged it for us to

10    go and visit our family with the money that we earned working (redacted)

11    (redacted)

12       Q.   How long did you stay in Belgrade?

13       A.   I can't remember, believe me.  I think I returned to Croatia

14    sometime perhaps in mid-June and back to Mostar by mid-July, sometime

15    around there.

16       Q.   But then you couldn't see the principal developments in Mostar?  I

17    mean the fighting with the Serbs.

18       A.   Of course I could not; if there was any war, that is.

19       Q.   You don't even know whether there was a war between Croats and

20    Muslims and Serbs or, rather, that the Serbs had committed an aggression

21    against Mostar?

22       A.   Well, naturally I heard a great deal about it, because my brothers

23    were there and they were engaged in HVO units, and a relative of mine was

24    also in the BH army.  I will agree with you when you say that there was an

25    aggression against the JNA by the military and paramilitary JNA

Page 3023

 1    formations.  But the end of the conflict did not look like a war.  It

 2    looked more like an understanding, like a pact.

 3       Q.   You were giving very broad answers to my learned friend, that is

 4    why I'm asking you, because you said that the absolute power in the

 5    defence of Mostar was in the hands of the HVO?

 6       A.   Yes, well, that is so.  That has been proven.

 7       Q.   I mean, you were not in Mostar?

 8       A.   It doesn't matter, because there is documents and other evidence.

 9    Why should it be important whether I spent in Mostar those two months or

10    not?

11       Q.   Witness, do you know about the understanding between Izetbegovic

12    and Boban to hand over the conduct of the defence of the HVO?

13       A.   I'd be very happy if you could show me that, the document showing

14    that understanding.  You know, sir, Krsnik, there were very many

15    agreements that were never respected, because under wartime conditions

16    such agreements remained on paper or, rather, they were never translated

17    into life because one of the two parties defaulted on them, or perhaps

18    both of them did.

19       Q.   Witness, will you please focus on my questions and give me brief

20    questions [as interpreted].  My questions are very simple.  Do you know?

21    If you don't [as interpreted] know, then tell us.  If you do not know,

22    then also tell us, sir, nothing else.  And please refrain from comments,

23    because they do not derive from my questions.

24       A.   And I am answering you like that and, please, I like to be able to

25    answer normally your questions.  Your question -- it is impossible to

Page 3024












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 3025

 1    answer questions with a "yes" or "no," and there would be no sense in my

 2    coming here to answer your questions with only "yes" or "no" because your

 3    questions are very ambiguous so that I cannot answer them in that

 4    particular manner.

 5       Q.   Witness, are you aware that Izetbegovic and Mate Boban agreed that

 6    the defence of Mostar would be entrusted to the HVO in the joint staff

 7    headed by Jasmin Jaganjac, a Bosnian or a Muslim, whichever; are you aware

 8    of that or not?

 9       A.   No, I'm not.

10       Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the whole burden of training and

11    armament in that war was borne by the HVO?

12       A.   I don't believe that.

13       Q.   Thank you.  Was there a party called the "Croat Party of Rights"

14    in Herzegovina?

15       A.   Yes.  That was the branch of the Croat Party of Rights from

16    Zagreb.

17       Q.   A branch while Yugoslavia still existed.  But after the

18    recognition of Bosnia in 1992 or, rather, the end of this year, the HOS

19    was a party in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

20       A.   I guess so.

21       Q.   HOS, H-O-S, the Croat defence forces, were the military wing of

22    that party in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

23       A.   Yes, but their chief commander was in Zagreb and the headquarters

24    was in Zagreb.

25       Q.   You know that?

Page 3026

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   You have personal knowledge of that?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   You were in Zagreb and talked to the supreme commander of those

 5    forces?

 6       A.   I was in Zagreb, but I had no opportunity to talk to the

 7    commander.

 8       Q.   And what is the supreme commander called?

 9       A.   I do not know how the HOS is structured because I suppose it is

10    structured differently than the BH army, but I think that the head of the

11    Main Staff was Mr. Ante Dzapic and the commander of HOS in

12    Bosnia-Herzegovina was Ante Prkacin, and they are both Croatian nationals.

13       Q.   Thank you very much.

14       A.   Not at all.

15       Q.   Are you aware that the HVO was a part of the armed forces of

16    Bosnia-Herzegovina recognised by the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17       A.   As far as I know, the HVO was recognised by the president of the

18    Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I have not found anywhere, even in the

19    literature, the HVO was recognised by the Presidency, because it is still

20    the Croatian component in the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is,

21    it is still an organisation apart, even though the war ended eight years

22    ago.

23       Q.   Witness, my question was:  Were they regular, lawful forces of

24    Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Are you aware of that or not aware of that?

25       A.   My answer is that they were neither regular nor lawful forces.

Page 3027

 1       Q.   Thank you.

 2       A.   Not at all.

 3       Q.   Do you know when the Mostar Battalion was formed, do you know that

 4    or not?

 5       A.   The Mostar Battalion was formed in April '92.

 6       Q.   Do you know that that battalion grew into the 4th Corps?

 7       A.   Absolutely, first into the 1st Brigade and then into the 4th

 8    Corps.

 9       Q.   Bozo Rajic, the Defence minister in the government of

10    Bosnia-Herzegovina, by virtue of a decision of the government of

11    Bosnia-Herzegovina, issued an order based on the Vance-Owen Plan which the

12    Croats had signed, and the Bosnian or Muslims procrastinated it.  But on

13    the basis of the government's decision, an order was issued that in the

14    areas where the Croats constitute the majority, the armed forces would be

15    subordinated to the Croat forces, and in the areas where the Bosniak or

16    Muslim forces were the majority, the Croat forces would be subordinated to

17    the Bosniak Muslim forces, as I said.  Do you know that or not?

18       A.   Yes, of course I'm aware of that order, but you misinterpreted it

19    completely.  The decision of the government was not Bozo -- Bozo Rajic

20    wasn't there.  Bozo Rajic took that decision in Mostar or in Grude.  The

21    government was in Sarajevo.  Bozo Rajic never went to Sarajevo, where we

22    all conducted our consultations.

23       Q.   How do you know that?

24       A.   From the mass media.  There are video recordings with those

25    statements, because Bozo Rajic did not attend the session of the

Page 3028

 1    government.  And I am absolutely positive that the government of

 2    Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is, the regular government of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 3    would never take a decision which would be directly conducive to war.

 4       Q.   Witness, will you please be so kind as to tell us whether the

 5    factories or institutions in Mostar worked at that time in '92?  Let's

 6    take July, when you came there, until '93, until May '93.  Did anything

 7    work in Mostar?

 8       A.   Well, yes, there was some work here and there, but mostly to a

 9    reduced capacity.

10       Q.   Well, is that a surprise, that people lost jobs?

11       A.   Of course it is not a surprise that people lost their jobs.

12       Q.   Thank you, thank you.

13            THE INTERPRETER:  Continuing the end of the answer:

14       A.   What comes as a surprise is that only the members of one ethnic

15    group lost their jobs.

16       Q.   Witness, how many refugees -- of course, I'm sure you don't know

17    the number, but perhaps you do.  How many Muslim refugees came from

18    Podvelezje and all those neighbouring villages from East Mostar to West

19    Mostar, do you know that?

20       A.   Can I ask you, please, counsel, do not use Muslim refugees.

21    Muslim refugees exist in Pakistan from Afghanistan, so will you please try

22    to use the accepted terminology.

23       Q.   Yes, of course.  No problem.

24            What term do you want me to use, "Bosniak"?

25       A.   Sir, well, if you don't know how, I'm really astonished by that

Page 3029

 1    fact.  Bosniak refugees.

 2       Q.   They are not refugees.  They are people who were expelled by the

 3    force of arms.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Wait.  Wait.  At this moment, I have to remind you

 5    both, since you are speaking with the same language, all you have said has

 6    to be translated into the other two languages.  We entirely rely on the

 7    interpreters.  So please make a pause after each question and answer so

 8    that the interpreters could follow you.  Thank you.

 9            THE WITNESS:  My apologies, Your Honours.

10            JUDGE CLARK:  May I ask the Witness and Mr. Krsnik, you're coming

11    very close to the situation that we were in yesterday where you were

12    debating with each other on the basis of your very full knowledge of what

13    happened in the former Yugoslavia, and you are debating as well-informed

14    people rather than trying to assist the Court.  I know it's difficult - I

15    said that to you yesterday - but please try to be professional.

16            Your position is to try and elicit information from this witness

17    here which either disparages the evidence that he gave yesterday or puts

18    in issue something that he said yesterday.  We haven't yet addressed the

19    issues that came before the Court yesterday.  This witness gave very clear

20    evidence of his personal experiences of being a member of an ethnic group,

21    the Muslims or Bosniaks of the former Yugoslavia, who he claims were

22    mistreated during the conflict with the HVO and the other military units

23    that were under that umbrella.  You haven't yet addressed that issue.

24    That's what -- this is why this witness is here.  What you're doing is

25    very interesting, but it doesn't address the reason why you're

Page 3030

 1    cross-examining this witness, unless you take it that there is no dispute

 2    at all about what he said yesterday.

 3            Isn't that the point of a cross-examination?

 4            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  But to get

 5    to that point, we need to prepare the ground for them and start moving

 6    towards them.  So now I must speed matters up, and I'm not really sorry

 7    that I have to do that.

 8       Q.   So you still owe me an answer to my question.  Did those refugees

 9    populate West Mostar or didn't they, and how many of them were they?

10       A.   They were not refugees.  They were people expelled by the force of

11    arms, and they spread all over the town.  Their number, nobody knew it

12    then.  Nobody knows it today.

13       Q.   And tell us, please, who moved into flats abandoned by Serbs?

14       A.   By and large, Croats fled from Central Bosnia, and that remains

15    the case to this day.

16       Q.   Tell me, please, do you remember how many statements you gave to

17    the State Security Service in Mostar and the investigators of this

18    Tribunal?

19       A.   I do not remember.  I'm not aware that there is a State Security

20    Service in Mostar.

21       Q.   You do not remember giving a statement to the State Security

22    Service?

23       A.   I'm still not aware that there's a State Security Service there.

24       Q.   On the 17th of January, '96?

25       A.   '96, you say?

Page 3031

 1       Q.   Yes.

 2       A.   Believe me, I'm simply not aware that it exists, or rather that

 3    that is its name, the State Security Service of Mostar.

 4       Q.   That is its precise name.  Do you remember giving the statement?

 5       A.   Of course I remember giving the statement.

 6       Q.   Very well, then.  Tell me -- now, let's move on to the 9th of

 7    May.

 8            In that statement, you said that you woke up at 4.00 in the

 9    morning, and only at 17.45, a quarter to 6.00 in the afternoon, members of

10    the HVO entered your apartment?

11       A.   That is simply not true.  Sir, it must be a mistake in the

12    translation.  You say 5.45, and the translator forgot to -- in English,

13    you say it in the same way, 5.45 in the morning and in the afternoon, so

14    the translator simply forgot to put morning rather than afternoon.  That

15    is a mistake.

16       Q.   That is a different matter.  You said that it started at 5.00

17    rather than at 4.00, and they broke into your apartment at 6.00 in the

18    morning.  Is that another mistake, or which is correct?

19       A.   Sir, do you really think that I could remember the exact minute at

20    a time when a town was in flames, when shells were falling all over?  I

21    really could not make an accurate assessment to a minute.

22       Q.   Sir, this is what your statement says, which you read and signed.

23       A.   Yes, of course.

24       Q.   But is that correct?

25       A.   Well, I'm telling you that that was at about that time.

Page 3032

 1       Q.   Which of them is correct, the first one or the second one?

 2       A.   The one that says that I was woken up by the attack in the morning

 3    hours, and that they came around 6.00.  I really do not know whether this

 4    is my first, second, or third statement.  You have them before you.  I do

 5    not.

 6       Q.   Tell me, please, what is correct?  In the first statement you said

 7    it was the policemen who came to fetch you.  You recognised Braco Poznic.

 8    And in your second statement, you said it was Kemal Selmanovic who came to

 9    take you away.  Now, what is correct, Braco Poznic or Kemal Selmanovic?

10       A.   What period of time are you asking me about?

11       Q.   I'm asking you about the 30th of June.

12            THE INTERPRETER:  Will the counsel and witness please not speak at

13    the same time.

14            MR. KRSNIK:

15       Q.   [Interpretation] If you had enough patience to answer my questions

16    and do not start answering without waiting for the end of my question,

17    then you would be able to hear me.  So will you please bear with me and

18    listen to my question to the end.

19       A.   Yes.  Ask your question.

20            THE INTERPRETER:  Will the counsel and witness please make a break

21    between question and answer.

22            MR. KRSNIK:

23       Q.   [Interpretation] About the events on the 30th of June, 1993, you

24    first stated that you were arrested by two unknown members of the HVO, and

25    that in the street you saw Braco Poznic.  In your second statement you

Page 3033

 1    said that you were addressed by Kemal Selmanovic, and you mention only him

 2    and nobody else.  Now, which one of the two is true?

 3       A.   Of course, it is true that my flat -- that Mr. Kemal Selmanovic

 4    came there and took me out.  Braco Poznic was the chief of police, and he

 5    was waiting in front of the building.  You must have confused certain

 6    things in those statements.

 7       Q.   Well, it says very clearly, sir, in your statement that you were

 8    arrested by two unknown soldiers, "unknown soldier."  You will agree with

 9    me that an unknown soldier is an unknown soldier; that is, it is not a

10    known soldier.  And secondly, you say in your statements which you signed

11    that you were arrested by Kemal Selmanovic, so this is not the same.

12    Please, if you don't want to answer my question, then you don't have to.

13       A.   I do want.

14       Q.   So what is true, that you were arrested by unknown soldiers or by

15    Kemal Selmanovic?

16       A.   Kemal Selmanovic and an unknown soldier.

17       Q.   In your third statement of the 18th December and the 19th of

18    January this year, that is recently, you said that you stopped working for

19    the BiH army in the summer of 1997.  Yesterday in this Court, before this

20    Honourable Court, you said that you stopped working for them after the --

21    following the Dayton Peace Accords.

22       A.   So where is the question?

23       Q.   Which one of the two is true?  When did you stop working for them?

24       A.   Both are true.

25       Q.   Do you always have two truths?  Excuse me, Witness.  There cannot

Page 3034

 1    exist two truths.

 2            Did you stop working in '97 or during the Dayton Peace Accords?

 3       A.   Yes, of course there can be.

 4            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your

 5    permission, I should like to remind the counsel not to start speaking

 6    until you can see on the transcript the end of the previous sentence --

 7    rather, the previous answer of the witness.  Thank you.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  And I think that question is quite unnecessary.  Do

 9    you always have two truths?  What kind of question is this?  You could ask

10    him which is true, but you should not pose any questions like this.  All

11    right.

12            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, you are quite right, Your

13    Honours.  But you see, I am exposed to this major pressure.  And I assure

14    you, Your Honour, it is very difficult to communicate with this witness.

15    And if you spoke my language, you would understand.  Because the witness

16    is trying to dodge my questions.  He is evading answers, and I am really

17    at great pain, and I beg of this Chamber to understand this.

18            THE WITNESS:  I think that this is simply not true.  You are

19    asking questions which for the most part have nothing to do with the case.

20            JUDGE LIU:  Let's stop the debate between yourselves, but just to

21    bear in mind that you should ask a question in the line of the normal

22    procedures.

23            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will complete my

24    examination with a question.

25       Q.   Tell me, what is the truth?  Did you leave the BiH army in 1997,

Page 3035

 1    or is it true what you said before this Honourable Court, that you left it

 2    during the Dayton Peace Accords?  So when did you speak the truth, before

 3    this Court or in your statement?

 4       A.   In both cases.  If I may, I will explain it briefly.

 5       Q.   No, thank you.  There's no need.

 6            MR. KRSNIK:  I have completed my cross-examination.

 7            JUDGE CLARK:  I think this witness should be allowed to give an

 8    answer.

 9            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, as you can see, I am not conducting

10    this examination.  It is conducted by Mr. Krsnik.  I am only answering his

11    questions.  And if the examination follows some other course, then I

12    cannot be held responsible for it.

13            At the time when the Dayton Peace Accords were signed, this

14    document put an end to the belligerences in my homeland of

15    Bosnia-Herzegovina.  In view of the kind of work that I did for Bosnia at

16    the time, the need for such work ceased.  However, the agency to which I

17    was committed and which brought together people, regardless of the ethnic

18    origin, religion, or membership in an army, was trying to find the missing

19    persons.  Unfortunately, the largest number of the missing are on the

20    Bosniak side, a huge number of them.  And this is the case to this day.

21            My agency was involved in trying to trace them.  So naturally, I

22    remained a soldier, in a way, because the signing of new professional --

23    agreements were signed with the army.  Of course, the army needed people.

24    (redacted), I had no intention -- that is, I

25    did not think that the army would need my services again.  So that my

Page 3036

 1    contract ended sometime in July '97.  And this is my true statement, and I

 2    am saying it under full moral and legal responsibility.

 3            JUDGE CLARK:  I think that you mentioned your profession, so that

 4    will have to be removed from the transcript.

 5            Is your answer, then, pursuant to Mr. Krsnik's question, is that

 6    one part of your work ceased after the Dayton Accord as a military man,

 7    but you remained as a civilian in your other work, which was trying to

 8    identify where missing people had gone?

 9       A.   That is right, yes.

10            JUDGE CLARK:  So if Mr. Krsnik has any questions specifically

11    arising out of that response, which I suppose I elicited rather than you,

12    I mean of course you're free to ask further questions.  Thank you,

13    Witness.

14            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, and thank you

15    for your help and your understanding.  But it is already half past 10.00,

16    and if we wanted to finish with this witness by 11.00, and there is my

17    colleague who has to ask some questions, I really see no purpose in asking

18    any further questions of this witness, because what the Defence wanted to

19    achieve and to show this Honourable Court, I believe we have done this.

20    And with this difficulty in communication, I believe we also saw how

21    difficult it was.  But thank you very much.  No further questions.

22            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Par, cross-examination.

23            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Before I start

24    my cross-examination, I would like to ask to resolve a question so as not

25    to have the witness consider me as being provocative or believe that it is

Page 3037

 1    an attempt of manipulating with him.

 2            In the course of the cross-examination conducted by Mr. Krsnik,

 3    there was always the problem of terminology that emerged, whether it was a

 4    question of the Bosnian Muslims, Bosniaks, the army of B and H, the Muslim

 5    army and the like.  This is not only a problem today.  It is a problem

 6    that we have had with most other witnesses too.  I would like, here and

 7    now, to resolve this issue with the witness.  We also hope that the

 8    Chamber will help me in this.

 9            The indictment is written in such a way that it speaks exclusively

10    of Bosnian Muslims, by way of terminology.  I believe that we must follow

11    the terminology of the indictment.  The entire spirit of the indictment

12    reflects the conflict between Muslims and Croats, no armies and so forth.

13    The separation line, which is a problem in our case, which you can see

14    from the indictment and which can be seen from the situation on the

15    ground, is a conflict.  On the one side, we had the Muslims, and on the

16    other side, the Croats.  We cannot obliterate things here.  We cannot

17    discuss how we shall call one another, whether they were at the time a TO,

18    or army of B and H, or Muslim forces, as it is stated in the indictment.

19    I would like to have this problem resolved so as to avoid further problems

20    and to have discussions with the witness on this and to say that we are

21    perhaps provoking and manipulating with things that are below the level of

22    the work we are doing.

23   JUDGE LIU:  Well, I agree with you that we should follow the terms that

24  appear in the indictment, in principle.  But as for the particular witness

25  if there is two terms which express the same meaning and one of which is

Page 3038












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 3039

 1    not so sensitive to that witness, with the understanding that the two

 2    terms expresses a meaning, you could use that one.  Is that clear?

 3            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] It is clear to me, and I will abide by

 4    your instructions.  Could you tell the Prosecutor to acquaint the witness

 5    with the terms used in the indictment and that the Defence, by using other

 6    terms, has no intention of provoking the witness?

 7            And now I would like --

 8            JUDGE CLARK:  Mr. Par, can I say something?  We are dealing with a

 9    very sensitive situation, and we recognise that all of you come from

10    different sides and you have sensitivities too, as well as the witnesses.

11    I think that the ordinary rules of courtesy must apply, and I'm sure that

12    having practised at the Bar - and I believe that Mr. Seric was a judge -

13    that you know how to deal courteously with people.  It is normal to

14    ascertain in advance what term they find acceptable.

15            Now, I think you know, from listening - and I think we're

16    beginning to know, from listening to witnesses - that there are certain

17    terms which were used yesterday afternoon in the space of a very short

18    time that are utterly, utterly unacceptable to any of the parties, whether

19    you come from the Serb side, the Croat side or the Bosniak Muslim side.

20    They are certain terms that we've heard expressed, and unfortunately they

21    were being used yesterday, I thought quite unnecessarily, but that's a

22    personal view.  If we can avoid using those three pejorative terms.  And

23    if you ascertain, I think, with your normal education, you will see what

24    terms were used yesterday which caused pain and try to avoid them today.

25    And I'm sure the witness is listening to what we're saying, and he

Page 3040

 1    appreciates the difficulties from the Bench and from both sides, and that

 2    he will cooperate as well.  Thank you.

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

 4            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Your Honour, there was such kind of proposal from

 5    the Defence counsel that we should get our witness acquainted with the

 6    indictment.  It seems to me that this question, this proposal, it is

 7    misleading.  I think that the indictment is written in a succinct language

 8    and there is a line between HVO and AbiH as participants in the military

 9    conflict.  I suggest that my learned colleague should read the indictment

10    before raising this question here.  Thank you.

11            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I --

12            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to say

13    that the disagreement did not come from the words "Bosnian Muslim" but

14    "Muslim refugees."  The witness said that these were people who had been

15    expelled by the force of arms and did not leave voluntarily.  So the

16    difficulty is not at the level "Bosniak Muslim" but the attributes added

17    to this to further explain their particular condition.

18            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I understood

19    this.  I do not wish to continue the discussion on this.  I understood

20    your instructions.  I hope that I've been understood that my intention was

21    a good one, just to avoid misunderstandings.

22            And as far as what Judge Clark has said, that we could clear up

23    what is offensive to the witness, well, we can do this now.  Well, I would

24    like to say that we have never been or will be offensive to the witness.

25            So may I begin my cross-examination?

Page 3041

 1                          Cross-examined by Mr. Par:

 2       Q.  [Interpretation] Sir, through the discussion, I suppose that you

 3    have understood what is controversial, and so we should perhaps decide on

 4    the terms that you find offensive.  Do you wish, instead of using the word

 5    "Muslims," use the term "Bosniaks"; is that what you wish?

 6       A.   Counsel, as you know, that I have always used the term "Croatian

 7    army" or "HVO."  Imagine if I were to ask you, "What term would you like,

 8     'Croatian army,' 'Ustasha army,' or 'Catholic army'?"

 9            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Well, I suppose I had -- ask the

10    questions.

11            JUDGE LIU:  You should not announce any words of offence to

12    Defence counsel.  That's not a good practice, I have to warn you at this

13    stage.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I had no intention of

15    doing this.  I just wanted to say how different the terms are.  There are

16    Muslims in Afghanistan, in Pakistan and elsewhere.  The legal term is

17    "Bosniak."

18            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Par, why don't you begin your questions, and

19    when we come across this issue, we will try to solve it with some

20    alternative terms.

21            JUDGE CLARK:  With the leave of the President, could we try,

22    unless it's material to an issue, to avoid the use of those which we -- I

23    don't understand what they mean, but I gather that they are very

24    pejorative terms, and one is "Ustasha," the other one is "Chetnik," and

25    the third one is "balija."  None of us know what they mean, but we know

Page 3042

 1    that everybody is deeply offended.  So could we, unless the use of the

 2    word -- you disagree with me, Mr. Krsnik.  You're not offended?

 3            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No.

 4            JUDGE CLARK:  I see, so that we've got it wrong.  But it seems to

 5    cause electric impulses in this court if those words are used, so could we

 6    avoid them and we agree to avoid them?  And that rule applies to --

 7            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I fully agree.  May we begin, finally?

 8       Q.   My name is Zelimir Par, and I'm one of the counsel for Vinko

 9    Martinovic.

10            Yesterday you spoke of an event taking place in 1992, when

11    allegedly a soldier from the Vinko Martinovic unit killed a person with

12    impunity, and you cited this as an example of the privileged position of

13    the Vinko Martinovic unit.  Do you remember that part of your testimony?

14       A.   Absolutely.

15       Q.   Well, in connection with that testimony, I would like to ask you

16    whether you are aware of when that ATG Mrmak or Vinko Skrobo was formed.

17    Do you know that it was formed only in 1993?

18       A.   Yes, of course.  I'm sorry.

19       Q.   So we agree that it was formed in 1993 and that the event you

20    cited was from 1992?

21       A.   Well, Vinko Martinovic had his unit in 1992, but it was not called

22    that way.

23       Q.   No, we are discussing the ATG, Vinko Martinovic and Skrobo, and I

24    asked you specifically for that unit.  Now I would like to discuss the

25    event.  Will you tell us, once again, what was the name of the person who

Page 3043

 1    was killed on that occasion?

 2       A.   I think his name was "Dragan Bojcic."

 3       Q.   Can you tell us where the killing took place?

 4       A.   In a cafe in the centre of the city.  I don't know the name.  It

 5    was eight years ago.

 6       Q.   When did the killing exactly take place; can you tell us the date?

 7       A.   Of course I cannot remember the date.  I was not an eyewitness to

 8    the event.

 9       Q.   Tell me -- can you tell me the name of the person who did the

10    killing?

11       A.   Yes.  The name was "Azer Kajan."

12       Q.   Have you personally checked in the court, police, whether anything

13    has been done about the case, whether the case has been recorded, whether

14    charges had been brought?

15       A.   I have no legal foundations for doing that, but I heard personally

16    from him.  He simply boasted about it, and nothing was -- no charges were

17    brought against him.

18       Q.   So your knowledge is based on his stories and the knowledge of

19    other people.  Since you have said that this had happened, you testified

20    before this Court that this had happened, now you, as a person with some

21    intelligence and experience, how would you assess the quality of that

22    information that you have stated to the Court?  And the information that

23    you have described here, would you describe as being verified, reliable

24    information or simply a story and a rumour?

25       A.   I would say that this was a very bad piece of information.  It was

Page 3044

 1    necessary just to say, in that connection, that some people from the unit

 2    had privileges.

 3       Q.   So we have cleared up the quality of that information.

 4            Secondly, something that you testified about yesterday and which

 5    dates back 20 years, and that is the juvenile delinquency of Vinko

 6    Martinovic.  And in order to discredit him, you spoke of the fact that he

 7    had been in fact sentenced as a juvenile.  Do you personally know what

 8    this was about, what kind of verdict it was, for what was he held

 9    responsible; have you any personal knowledge about that particular

10    situation or did you simply hear about it?

11       A.   Of course I heard about it, because we lived in the same part of

12    the town.  I'm not a judge, this was not accessible to me, and I have no

13    intention of discrediting Mr. Martinovic.

14       Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that after a certain period of time

15    following verdict, that the verdict is simply wiped away, and especially

16    in the case of minors; do you know that such a provision exists?

17       A.   Well, I'm not competent in the matter, but if I were asked, I

18    would delete that verdict and the sentence straight away.

19       Q.   Have you ever been sentenced yourself?

20       A.   No.

21            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Now, can we go into a private session

22    now, because I would like to discuss an event where the names of potential

23    witnesses may be mentioned and other things that might identify the

24    witness.

25            JUDGE LIU:  We'll go into private session.

Page 3045

 1                          [Private session]












13   Pages 3045 to 3051 – redacted – private session.













Page 3052

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12                          --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

13                          --- On resuming at 11:35 a.m.

14                          [Open session]

15            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Stringer.

16            MR. STRINGER:  Yes.  Good morning, Mr. President and Your

17    Honours.  Before we start with the next witness, we'd like to express our

18    gratitude not only to the Trial Chamber but also to the Defence for the

19    flexibility that they've shown this morning in allowing us to take this

20    next witness out of turn.  I think I can say that they can expect to find

21    the same degree of flexibility from our side when it comes time for the

22    Defence to call their witnesses.

23            Mr. President, this witness has requested protective measures,

24    that of a pseudonym and the use of facial distortion.  I can inform the

25    Trial Chamber that although this witness does not reside in the territory

Page 3053

 1   of the former Yugoslavia any more, she does reside in another part of

 2    Europe and has informed me that she is very anxious to have these

 3    protective measures granted for her protection and primarily for the

 4    protection of her child.  And that is her position, and I informed her

 5    that I would convey that to the Trial Chamber.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  I guess there is no objections from Defence counsel.

 7    Thank you, thank you very much.  So the protective measures are granted.

 8            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Then I believe we can

 9    bring the witness into the courtroom.  In the meantime, I can inform the

10    Trial Chamber that this witness will testify in respect of paragraphs 7,

11    18 and 19 of the indictment, which relate to the involvement of the

12    Republic of Croatia in respect of international armed conflict, and also

13    paragraphs 15 and 24, relating to superior authority of the accused

14    Naletilic.

15                          [The witness entered court]

16            THE REGISTRAR:  The pseudonym for this witness is "V" as in

17    "Victor," and it's Exhibit Number PW22.

18            THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

19            JUDGE LIU:  Will you please make the solemn declaration.

20            THE USHER:  In English?

21            THE WITNESS:  It doesn't matter which way. [Interpretation] I

22    solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

23    but the truth.

24            JUDGE LIU:  You may sit down.

25            THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

Page 3054

 1                          WITNESS:  WITNESS V

 2            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, we have a sheet of paper which we're

 3    prepared to give the witness, and I would ask the usher to give that to

 4    her.

 5            THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

 6                          Examined by Mr. Stringer:

 7       Q.   Witness V, could I ask you to just simply look at that paper and,

 8    without saying anything, tell us whether the information that is contained

 9    on that sheet of paper is correct?

10       A.   Yes, all the information is correct.  Thank you.

11       Q.   Witness V, let me ask you, on the sheet of paper that you've just

12    looked at, does that accurately indicate what was your occupation in 1993?

13       A.   Yes, it does.

14       Q.   Thank you.  Okay.  Witness V, let me ask you, were you present in

15    the city of Mostar on the 10th of April, 1993?

16       A.   Yes, I was.

17       Q.   And if you recall, what was that day?  Did it have any special

18    significance?

19       A.   It was Easter day, and it was also the day when, during the Second

20    World War, the Nazi puppet state of independent State of Croatia was

21    created.

22       Q.   What did you do on that day?

23       A (redacted) I got invitation to attend Easter

24    celebration in small banquet room of Hotel Ero in Mostar.

25            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I'll caution.

Page 3055

 1       Q.   Witness V, it's not necessary for you to state out loud your

 2    occupation, and I'll ask that that be redacted.

 3       A.   I apologise, Your Honour.

 4       Q.   You indicated that you were invited to attend an Easter

 5    celebration in a hotel.  Again for the record, what was the name of the

 6    hotel?

 7       A.   It was Hotel Ero.  I'll spell it for you.  It's E-R-O.

 8       Q.   Where is the hotel located?

 9       A.   It's located near Santici Street, near Carinski Bridge in Mostar.

10            THE INTERPRETER:  Will the counsel and the witness please pause

11    between question and answer.

12            MR. STRINGER:  I apologise.

13       Q.   Witness V, did you, in fact, attend the banquet on that day?

14       A.   Yes, I was.  I was present in the back.

15       Q.   How many people attended?

16       A.   From 20ish, 30ish, between those two figures.  I didn't count them

17    in my head, sorry.

18       Q.   Would you say it was a large or a small group?

19       A.   It was smallish group, not that large.  It was small banquet.

20       Q.   Can you tell us if you recall the names of some of the people who

21    were present when you arrived?

22       A.   When I arrived, there were clerical bishop of Catholic church.

23    There was Bishop Paridge.  Then there was Franciscan clergy in there.

24    There was Jadranko Prlic, which was at the time prime minister of

25    Herceg-Bosna, president of HVO Herceg-Bosna.  He was cohost of the banquet

Page 3056

 1    together with Jadran Topic.  He was mayor of Mostar at that time.  There

 2    was then Bruno Stojic.  Then there were some other people.  (redacted)

 3    (redacted)

 4       Q.   Thank you.  Who was Bruno Stojic?

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Meek.

 6            MR. MEEK:  Mr. President, Your Honours, the witness very

 7    quickly -- and I know she speaks English, so it rolls off her tongue --

 8    has mentioned a number of names that are not showing up on my monitor in

 9    any fashion, except for one.  I think that should be addressed.

10            JUDGE LIU:  Witness, you and the Prosecutor are speaking the same

11    language, so my advice is that you should pause after he asks the

12    question.

13            THE WITNESS:  Sorry, Your Honour.  I'll do that from now on.

14            JUDGE LIU:  And in front of you, there is a monitor.  And every

15    word you say will be typed out on that screen.  If you see, you know, the

16    sentence finished, you could begin to answer the question.

17            And yes, indeed, there are some words, some names, missing in the

18    transcript.  Would you please clear it up, Mr. Stringer.

19            MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President.

20       Q.   Witness, I'll just take you back to the names that you've

21    mentioned.  First of all, you mentioned the name of Jadranko Prlic?

22       A.   Prlic.

23       Q.   Can you please spell that?

24       A.   She typed it correctly.

25       Q.   Just spell it for the record.

Page 3057

 1       A.   P-r-l-i-c.

 2       Q.   You mentioned the name Jadran --

 3       A.   Jadran Topic.  T-o-p-i-c.

 4       Q.   Bruno Stojic.

 5       A.   S-t-o-j-i-c.

 6       Q.   Who was Bruno Stojic?

 7       A.   Bruno Stojic was Minister of Interior for Herceg-Bosna.

 8       Q.   If you could just briefly describe for us what was taking place at

 9    this banquet when you arrived.

10       A.   When I arrived, it was meant to be an Easter banquet, so people

11    were just having a glass of champagne and wine and some food.  The

12    normal -- what a banquet would look like normally.

13       Q.   Subsequently, did any other people arrive?

14       A.   We were standing there and chatting.  And suddenly, the doors

15    opened.  It's a double door, so it opened that way.  And Gojko Susak,

16    which is S-u-s-a-k, arrived, followed by Mate Boban, B-o-b-a-n, and then

17    they were accompanied by Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, the guy accused in here.

18       Q.   Let me just ask you a couple questions about that.  Who was Gojko

19    Susak?

20       A.   Gojko Susak was Minister of Defence of Republic of Croatia.

21       Q.   And how was he dressed?

22       A.   He was dressed in the civilian clothing, in a suit.  I think it

23    was a dark navy suit -- sorry, dark grey suit.  I apologise.

24       Q.   Who was Mate Boban?

25       A.   Mate Boban was president of HDZ in Bosnia and Herzegovina, as well

Page 3058

 1    as the president of Herceg-Bosna.

 2       Q.   What was HDZ?

 3       A.   It's Croatian Democratic Union, Croatian Nationalistic Party in

 4    Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5       Q.   You said also that they were accompanied by Mladen Naletilic?

 6       A.   Yes, they were.

 7       Q.   What was he wearing?

 8       A.   He was -- he had civilian t-shirt and uniform over it, just like a

 9    pullover without the sleeves.  And pants were also part of the uniform.

10       Q.   Can you describe the uniform.

11       A.   It was the standard issue HVO uniform, which was those with mask

12    with different colours, those masked uniforms.

13       Q.   What colour was the uniform?

14       A.   It was green, brownish mixture.

15       Q.   Camouflage?

16       A.   Camouflage, yeah.

17       Q.   Now, after these three persons arrived, what took place?

18       A.   I just repeat how they arrived.  They came into the room with

19    raised right hand in the Nazi salute, saying "bog i hrvati" for homeland

20    ready.  That was their entrance.  They shook hands with a few people and

21    started talking to -- predominantly talking to -- actually, a whole group

22    of the people that were inside just encircled them.

23       Q.   Did you hear the conversation that took place?

24       A.   Yes, I heard conversation clearly, because the banquet room was

25    half size of this courtroom, so we were all very near to each other so we

Page 3059

 1    could hear each other clearly.

 2       Q.   Witness V, again just for the record, perhaps you could spell for

 3    us the Croatian words that you just mentioned about "homeland ready."

 4       A.   "Dom", "D" for "David", "O", "M" for "Mother" -- sorry, can we do

 5    it again?  Z-A.  The next word is D-O-M.  The next word is "S" for

 6    "Sugar", "P" for "Peter", R-E, "M" for "Mother", "N" for "Nothing", "I".

 7            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Witness, you forgot to make the

 8    break that the President has asked you to make after every question.  Will

 9    you please take care.

10            THE WITNESS:  I apologise, Your Honour.

11            MR. STRINGER:

12       Q.   Okay.  Now, Witness V, I want to ask you to tell us, if you

13    recall, what was said during this banquet by Mr. Susak?

14       A.   I had the impression Mr. Susak was very much in charge.  So he

15    started talking to Jadranko Prlic and asking whether they were ready.  He

16    started mentioning some account.  He asked whether there was sufficient

17    funds in that account.  I can only suspect which account can that be.  But

18    he told him -- but Susak told him that if he needed money, he will be

19    ready to supply it.  Then he asked -- then he started talking to them,

20    saying to them that they are weak, that there is still some Muslim

21    soldiers in their forces.

22            Then they were interrupted by Mr. Naletilic, who said -- who

23    started bragging, basically, how good job his guys have done in Gornji

24    Vakuf, which was also one of the places that took some fighting before

25    that.

Page 3060

 1            Susak then went on, saying how they gonna drive Muslims out of the

 2    city, how they gonna create pure ethnic -- pure Mostar.  And then he was

 3    interrupted and asked whether -- because in the same time as banquet was

 4    going on, in the separate room there was a president of HDZ for Mostar and

 5    president of -- Mr. Stojan Vrljic.  I'll spell it.  V-R-L-J-I-C is his

 6    surname.  And also Mr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic, H-A-D-Z-O-S-M-N-O-V-I-C

 7    [sic].  He was president of the SDA for Mostar rather than SDA for all of

 8    Herzegovina.  They had some talks where they apparently meant to settle

 9    the differences between the two parties and to find some peaceful

10    solution.  After being reminded of that, Susak just said, "No, nothing

11    will come out of it.  We'll do our job regardless of them."

12       Q.   Okay.  Now, Witness V, you mentioned there a reference to "Muslims

13    in their forces."  What forces are you referring to?

14       A.   I was referring to HVO forces.

15       Q.   Did you hear Susak or Boban -- well, let me ask you, first of all,

16    did you hear other references to Muslims and, if so, by whom?

17       A.   They were referring to Muslims as some strange, awkward name of

18    "balija," which I myself don't know the proper meaning.  That's something

19    to offend them.  And it was Susak mainly who called them, and as well as

20    General Tuta.  That's how he was also -- he was referred during the

21    conversation as "General Tuta."

22       Q.   Now, you have mentioned the names of a number of people whom you

23    saw at this banquet.  Did there appear to be any sort of hierarchy among

24    them?

25       A.   Susak was definitely in charge.  Boban just stood aside.  He

Page 3061

 1    hardly uttered a few sentences.  And then there was some -- as I thought,

 2    someone responsible for the military operation, and that was General Tuta.

 3       Q.   Witness V, later that day -- let me ask you:  How long, then, did

 4    you stay at this banquet?  How long did it last?

 5       A.   Maybe an hour and a half.  Not that long.

 6       Q.   And then after the banquet, did you see any reports of this

 7    banquet in the media on that day?

 8       A.   I heard first of all Susak saying how they gonna meet at 1900

 9    hours at his place in Siroki Brijeg.  I came home that evening and I

10    basically told to my mother what I heard.  We were watching the news, and

11    one of the features was the banquet where all of us -- because we were

12    warned not to record, all of us, when they entered, and I saw the people

13    who were on banquet prior to three of them coming inside the room.  They

14    showed just that part of banquet on HTV, which is a Croatian television,

15    on the evening news, 10.30 news.  After that, they showed some report of

16    Susak meeting some UN officials in Zagreb as if he was in Zagreb, as if he

17    didn't come to Herzegovina at all.  It just basically trying to cover it

18    up.

19       Q.   Witness V, if you can, can you look around the courtroom and tell

20    us if you see anyone here who was present at the banquet on that day?

21       A.   It's the second person from the right in the back row.

22       Q.   And who is that person?

23       A.   That's General Tuta, Mladen Naletilic, Tuta.

24            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I ask that the record indicate that

25    the witness has identified the accused Naletilic.

Page 3062












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 3063

 1            Thank you, Witness.  I have no further questions.

 2            THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Cross-examinations.  Mr. Meek.

 4                          Cross-examined by Mr. Meek:

 5       Q.   Good morning, Witness V.

 6       A.   Good morning to you, sir.

 7       Q.   And how are you this morning?

 8       A.   I'm fine, thank you.  Very well, thank you, actually.  Sorry about

 9    that.

10            MR. MEEK:  May I ask that the usher please put the ELMO down so I

11    can see this witness.

12            THE WITNESS:  Carry on in Croatian if it's easier for you.

13            MR. MEEK:  No, it's not.

14            THE WITNESS:  Okay, doesn't matter.

15            MR. MEEK:

16       Q.   Can you tell me what month and year that you left

17    Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18    (redacted)

19    (redacted)

20    (redacted)

21       A.   I had a Croatian passport.

22       Q.   And can you tell me when you received the Croatian passport?

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25       Q.   And can you tell me, please, what the circumstances of your moving

Page 3064

 1    (redacted)

 2    (redacted)

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Meek, this witness is under some protective

 4    measures.  We'd better not go into the details about the identity of this

 5    witness.

 6            MR. MEEK:  I apologise, Your Honour.

 7            JUDGE LIU:  If you need, we could just go into private session.

 8            MR. MEEK:  I apologise.  I believe that the witness had indicated

 9    on her own where she lived, so I didn't believe that that would have been

10    anything that would have been protected.

11            THE WITNESS:  I did not indicate.  You asked me.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Meek, if you want to continue, we'll go into

13    private session.  I think that's the very easy way.

14            MR. MEEK:  We don't need to do that right now, Your Honour.

15       Q.   Witness V, was it very easy for you to obtain this Croatian

16    passport in 1992?

17       A.   Yes.

18    (redacted)

19    (redacted)

20       A.   No, because Franjo Tudjman was giving it to every Croat that was

21    born and lived in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I myself am half-Croatian.

22       Q.   Do you have -- excuse me.  When you moved to the country in which

23    you now live, did you continue with your occupation?

24    (redacted)

25    (redacted)

Page 3065

 1            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Meek, we come to this question again.  I've

 2    already said that if you need to ask those questions, we could easily go

 3    into the private session.

 4            MR. MEEK:  Very well.  Let's go to private session.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Okay, we'll go to the private session.

 6                          [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3066











11  Pages 3066-3069 redacted.  Private session.















Page 3070

 1   (redacted)

 2                          [Open session]

 3            JUDGE LIU:  We are now in the open session.

 4            MR. MEEK:

 5       Q.   You testified that it was an occasion where people were drinking

 6    and eating.  Correct?

 7       A.   Yes, it was.

 8       Q.   And everybody was having a good time?

 9       A.   Yes, chatting.

10       Q.   And can you tell me what sort of drinks were available at this

11    gathering?

12       A.   There was some champagne, some wine, some soft drinks as well.

13       Q.   Was there also beer and hard liquor?

14       A.   Probably it was, but I wasn't looking for it.

15       Q.   Did you notice other people among the guests who were drinking

16    beer or hard liquor?

17       A.   I can't recall those particular details.  I never look what people

18    are drinking, I'm sorry, only what I choose.

19       Q.   In the witness statement that you gave the Office of the

20    Prosecutor, you were interviewed by one interviewer.  Correct?

21       A.   Yes, it is.

22       Q.   Can you tell me how that interview came about.

23       A.   I called, myself, Tribunal after knowing that these two

24    witnesses -- these two accused are going to have trial.

25       Q.   So then would it be a fair statement to say that you learned

Page 3071

 1    through some media sources that Mr. Naletilic and Mr. Martinovic had been

 2    indicted by this Tribunal, so you came and volunteered your testimony?

 3       A.   Something like that, yes.

 4       Q.   Have you volunteered your testimony to the Office of the

 5    Prosecutor for any other accused?

 6       A.   I'm waiting for one more to be accused.

 7       Q.   So when you had -- did they come to your country to interview you,

 8    or did they bring you here or elsewhere to interview you?

 9       A.   They came to my country.

10       Q.   Okay.  And the interview took place on two separate days.  Is that

11    correct?

12       A.   Yes, it is.

13       Q.   Would you agree with me that it was a very comprehensive

14    interview?

15       A.   I wouldn't call it that comprehensive because we had normal

16    conversation, which gentleman noted, and then he came next day and --

17    actually, I read the statement with him standing next to me, and I just

18    basically signed it.  Made a few corrections, names and things like that

19    which were misspelled.

20       Q.   During this interview process, it was very clear that the Office

21    of the Prosecutor was targeting Mr. Naletilic.  Isn't that a fact?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Wasn't it clear to you that you were there to give testimony

24    against Mr. Naletilic?

25       A.   I wanted to give testimony against Mr. Naletilic.  I did it of my

Page 3072

 1    own free will.

 2       Q.   And you gave a full and truthful account to the Office of the

 3    Prosecutor on these two days, in February of 2001 and March 1st of 2001,

 4    did you not?

 5       A.   Yes, I did.  I gave them truthful version of all events.

 6       Q.   And have you had a chance to review the statement which you gave

 7    prior to your testimony today?

 8       A.   I read it over two days ago, just briefly, not even all of it.

 9       Q.   In your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, you never once

10    indicated that Mr. Naletilic made any sort of gestures concerning the

11    homeland ready, did you?

12       A.   I mentioned that.  I'm very much aware of that, because being the

13    person as I am, I always opposed any kind of fascist behaviour, and that

14    stuck in my mind for eight and-a-half years now.

15       Q.   While it may have been stuck in your mind for eight and-a-half

16    years, can you tell this Tribunal, this Trial Chamber, why it wasn't in

17    your extensive nine-page statement?

18       A.   I think it was originally, but since it's very hard to translate

19    it in English, they just probably omitted based on that reason.  Because

20    if I told you now, "za dom spremni, bog i hrvati," would you be able to

21    jot it down immediately?  Thank you.

22            MR. MEEK:  May the Trial Chamber, please, advise this witness that

23    she is to answer questions and not ask questions.  Thank you.

24            JUDGE LIU:  Did you hear Defence counsel?

25            THE WITNESS:  Sorry, Your Honour.

Page 3073

 1            MR. MEEK:

 2       Q.   At the time of this Easter party at the Hotel Ero in Mostar, you

 3    did not personally know Mr. Naletilic.  Correct?

 4       A.   No, I did not.  I never mixed with people of such milieu.

 5       Q.   You had no knowledge of his background or history, had you?

 6       A.   No, I heard bits and pieces, but generally, no.

 7       Q.   Okay.  And you mentioned that there was the, for example, head of

 8    the Franciscan church in Mostar was at this Easter party?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   That the mayor of Mostar was present?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   That the head of the Franciscan church for Herzegovina was

13    present?

14       A.   Yes, he was.

15       Q.   And there were many reporters present?

16       A.   Yes, there were.

17       Q.   You indicate that Mr. Susak was, in your opinion, in charge.  Is

18    that correct?

19       A.   Yes, it is.

20       Q.   And that is the feeling that you got.  Correct?

21       A.   That's the impression I had after what I saw.

22       Q.   You -- would it be a fair statement, Witness, that you did not

23    agree with these statements made by Mr. Susak and Mr. Boban?

24       A.   No, I did not agree ever.

25       Q.   Did you speak up that day and tell Mr. Susak and Mr. Boban that

Page 3074

 1    you did not agree with them?

 2       A.   With all the fire-power that they had in their hands, and criminal

 3    backgrounds, no, I did not dare to say anything then and there.

 4       Q.   Would it be a fair statement that the head of the Franciscan

 5    church for Mostar and the other head of the Franciscan church for

 6    Herzegovina, they also did not disagree?

 7       A.   They did not disagree.

 8       Q.   Nobody made speeches at this gathering, did they?

 9       A.   No.  It was more informal gathering.

10       Q.   And with 30 -- approximately 30 people there speaking for a 10- or

11    15-minute period, how could you hear the conversation between Susak, for

12    example, or Boban, for example, or Mr. Naletilic, for example?

13       A.   When Susak spoke, everybody listened.  They didn't argue back.  So

14    he had that tone of voice, so I could hear his word, the accused word

15    quite correctly, because it's a small room.  People standing in a circle.

16    So these people could just stand into a circle, a half circle.

17       Q.   In the meantime, if I understand your testimony, the party is

18    still going on and people are still talking with each other and mingling.

19    Correct?

20       A.   No, party turned in a completely different direction.

21       Q.   Are you aware that Mr. Naletilic was born and raised in Siroki

22    Brijeg?

23       A.   Probably.  I maybe have heard, but didn't matter to me because I

24    never had any contact whatsoever with people of lower class than I was, if

25    I may say in that way.

Page 3075

 1       Q.   So are you saying that Mr. Naletilic is a lower-class person than

 2    you, Ms. Witness?

 3       A.   No, I'm not saying that, and I respect each and every human being

 4    as they are.  But being from upper middle-class family, I didn't have any

 5    sort of conversation which I would hold with somebody who is -- who has

 6    probably only primary school.  We didn't have the chance to mix.

 7       Q.   So you didn't -- you don't realise, then, and did not realise,

 8    that Mr. Naletilic left Bosnia-Herzegovina when he was 18 years old and

 9    sought asylum in Germany from the communists?

10       A.   It didn't matter to me.

11       Q.   You were not aware, then, were you, that Mr. Susak was also born

12    in Siroki Brijeg?

13       A.   I really don't see the relevant point in that.  What's so special

14    about Siroki Brijeg?  I had friends from there, and they are all fine

15    people.  Thank you.  Sorry.

16       Q.   Witness V, the relevance of anything is going to be determined by

17    these three Judges.

18       A.   Apologise to Judge.  I just couldn't contain myself.

19       Q.   Thank you.  So you were not aware, then, that Mr. Susak and

20    Mr. Naletilic were childhood friends.  You were not aware that

21    Mr. Naletilic had lived in Germany or outside of the Bosnia-Herzegovina

22    area until approximately 1991?

23       A.   I heard some bits and pieces, that he was somewhere abroad.  I

24    didn't know that he was in Germany, what he was doing there, no.

25       Q.   You were not then aware that after he had moved and sought asylum

Page 3076

 1    in Germany at a young age, that he became a businessman and owned

 2    restaurants and casinos; you were not, were you?

 3       A.   Not even now.

 4       Q.   Okay.  Can you tell me whether or not you have any background in

 5    military organisations?

 6       A.   None whatsoever.

 7       Q.   So if I were to ask you if it is a military jargon to call

 8    soldiers "boys," you wouldn't know, would you?

 9       A.   I would know that because that is part of the common knowledge

10    which educated people do know.  I wouldn't go into too many details of the

11    military operations - that's something for the experts - but the common

12    stuff from the military, yes, I would know because I would have read it

13    somewhere.

14       Q.   Being that Mr. Naletilic and Mr. Susak were childhood friends, and

15    also given the fact that you've testified that you --

16            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

17            MR. MEEK:

18       Q.   -- were not comfortable in speaking up and saying anything to

19    Mr. --

20            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Meek, I saw Mr. Stringer standing.

21            MR. STRINGER:  I apologise for interrupting, but I object.  The

22    witness doesn't know if Mr. Naletilic and Mr. Susak were childhood

23    friends.  I don't think there's any evidence in the record on that point

24    at all, other than the fact that that has been repeated numerous times by

25    various counsel for Mr. Naletilic.  So I would object to putting questions

Page 3077

 1    to the witness based on matters which are beyond the personal experience

 2    and knowledge of the witness and which are also not part of the evidence

 3    in this case.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Meek, the witness has already said that she didn't

 5    know that Mr. Naletilic and Mr. Susak were childhood friends as a fact.

 6            MR. MEEK:  Mr. President, I know where that objection comes from,

 7    but I also must say that that's one of the problems in the proceeding in

 8    this Trial Chamber and in this Tribunal.  We will prove this in our case,

 9    but we cannot bring this witness back because of the problems with travel

10    distances.  So I will try to rephrase my questions so it will be not

11    objectionable.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Stringer.

13            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, if Mr. Meek is proposing to make

14    this witness his witness for purposes of his case in chief, we don't

15    object.  We agree that the witness should not be brought back again and

16    inconvenienced for that purpose.  So I wouldn't have an objection to

17    that.  We would, however -- I think that does then change the manner in

18    which Mr. Meek puts his questions to the witness, if in fact she's now

19    testifying in the nature of a direct examination-in-chief.

20            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Meek, you may rephrase your question and you may

21    proceed.

22            MR. MEEK:  Thank you, Your Honour, but I'm not turning this

23    witness into my witness.  I just want to rephrase my question.

24       Q.   Witness V, assuming that Susak and Mladen Naletilic --

25            JUDGE CLARK:  Sorry, Mr. Meek.  I think the correct way to do it

Page 3078

 1    is, "My client will call evidence to this effect," and then put to the

 2    witness what your case is and is going to be so it's on the record and she

 3    has an opportunity to make her observations on what your case is.

 4            MR. MEEK:  Thank you, Judge Clark.

 5       Q.   Witness V, my client will call evidence to the effect that he and

 6    Mr. Susak were childhood friends from Siroki Brijeg from a very young age

 7    and remained friends through 1991.  Is it so hard for you to imagine that

 8    a childhood friend of Mr. Susak, such as Mladen Naletilic, would also be

 9    fearful to disagree with Mr. Susak, especially in a meeting such as the

10    one you described, ma'am?

11       A.   Mr. Naletilic supported Susak's argument.

12       Q.   Witness V, didn't you also support that argument by omission, by

13    not speaking up?

14       A.   No, I never supported.  I was just scared to confront him then and

15    there.  If I had a bomb, maybe I would blow myself apart, but I didn't

16    have any weapons because I never carried weapons.  If I had the weapons,

17    they would be dead, then and there.

18       Q.   So is it your testimony that you feel such hatred against

19    Mr. Naletilic that you would have killed him then?

20       A.   I do not feel hatred towards anybody, including both of them.

21       Q.   Well --

22       A.   The point is I could never agree with the fascist language, with

23    the actions that they were clearly planning.  I could never agree with

24    that against any ethnic, national, whatever group, Martians, doesn't

25    matter.

Page 3079












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 3080

 1       Q.   Thank you, Witness V.  Fortunately, you and I both speak English,

 2    and I'm reading the transcript and you said that if you would have had a

 3    weapon, they would have been dead.  Is that not a fact, ma'am?

 4       A.   Yes, I said that.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  And you feel the same way today, I take it.

 6       A.   If you were to do the same thing and planned to exterminate

 7    whoever, I would be against you, yes.  And I never met you before, as I

 8    never met them before.

 9       Q.   And, Witness V, you do not have any evidence for this Trial

10    Chamber that my client in fact planned to exterminate anybody, do you?

11       A.   If they were gonna evict Muslims, if they gonna swim across

12    Neretva, as they were saying, if Mostar is gonna be pure Croatian city,

13    then it means that.

14       Q.   And, Witness V, these things that you just said now, you did not

15    say in your statement that you gave to the OTP, nor did you testify in

16    your direct examination, did you?

17       A.   I did, and you should have read the statement.  And I said that

18    they gonna expel the Muslims.  I said that in the statement and I said in

19    the direct examination by Mr. Doug.

20       Q.   Witness V, you never indicated in any statement or in any

21    examination under oath today that Mr. Naletilic or Mr. Susak intended to

22    exterminate anybody, did you?

23       A.   I think "extermination" also implies expelling people, people

24    swimming across the rivers, making pure Croatian city.  How you gonna make

25    it?  By eliminating people, and that's extermination.  So Muslims wouldn't

Page 3081

 1    be present in Mostar.

 2       Q.   Again, you would agree that there are different ways that a person

 3    can support another person?

 4       A.   I agree, but this was clearly because -- was Mate Boban that

 5    childhood friend?  Sorry.

 6       Q.   No.  Listen to the question, Witness, please.  Would you agree

 7    that a person can be supported by another person in various ways?

 8       A.   Yes, but --

 9       Q.   Thank you.

10       A.   -- Mr. Naletilic clearly stated his guys have done job in Gornji

11    Vakuf.

12       Q.   And let me ask you this:  You were scared to speak up, your fellow

13    colleagues were scared to speak up, the other people who you've described

14    that were at this function were scared to speak up; correct?

15       A.   Correct.

16       Q.   Why is it so unusual --

17       A.   Possible --

18       Q.   Why is it, ma'am, so unreasonable that Mr. Naletilic, being a

19    childhood friend or crony of Mr. Susak, would also have been scared to

20    speak up, and scared to go against anything that he would say in public,

21    and in fact might even go along with something so he would not be

22    injured?

23       A.   Mr. Naletilic at that time had his Convicts' Battalion, and I

24    didn't have single gun.  That's the difference.

25       Q.   Well, Witness V, what proof do you have today about the comment

Page 3082

 1    you just made, that Mr. Naletilic had the Convicts' Battalion?  What proof

 2    do you have?

 3       A.   I recall when I first saw Mr. Naletilic, I can pinpoint in Western

 4    Herzegovina where his headquarters were.  I know that his men, which I

 5    met -- I was meeting every day -- I worked in that particular company

 6    where I had access to people.  I saw him at that headquarter.  They were

 7    all swearing to him, always talking about that general.  He had some

 8    probably very -- very big influence on very young guys who were in that.

 9       Q.   Can we get a date on this?

10       A.   On this date.

11       Q.   Which date are we speaking of?

12       A.   Prior to that, you meant?

13       Q.   Would this be --

14       A.   Because I worked down there and I had daily meetings with various

15    numbers of people.

16       Q.   Okay.  So what you're saying, if I understand you correctly, is

17    that you base this on what you heard?

18       A.   Yes, but from very reliable sources.

19       Q.   Exactly.  And your testimony under oath has been that prior to the

20    Easter celebration in Mostar, you had only seen Mr. Naletilic one time in

21    Siroki Brijeg --

22       A.   Yes, and that's what I mentioned.  On the way to Siroki Brijeg,

23    there was his headquarter, and I saw him in front of his headquarter.

24    That's the only time I saw him prior to the event.  I talked to other

25    people.

Page 3083

 1       Q.   Yes, I understand that.

 2            THE INTERPRETER:  Will the counsel and witness please break

 3    between question and answer.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Please wait, wait.

 5            JUDGE DIARRA: [No interpretation]

 6            THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

 7            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Judge Diarra, please.  Microphone

 8    for Judge Diarra.

 9            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I didn't need the

10    microphone.  This was just an exchange.  Thank you.

11            MR. MEEK:  I apologise, but I did not catch the exchange between

12    the Judge and the witness.

13            JUDGE LIU:  Well, it's all right.  You may proceed.

14            MR. MEEK:

15       Q.   When you indicated in your direct examination that you received an

16    invitation to this function, was that in writing, ma'am?

17       A.   Yes, it was.  I received the invitation.

18       Q.   And do you have a copy of that with you or did you keep one?

19       A.   I don't have any of my property down there, so, no, I don't have

20    that invitation.

21       Q.   And the invitation didn't mention anybody specifically who would

22    be there, did it?

23       A.   No, it didn't mention anybody.

24       Q.   And you're familiar with TV journalism, I take it.  Correct?

25       A.   Correct.

Page 3084

 1       Q.   And you're aware of foul footage, the term "foul footage"?

 2       A.   Yeah.

 3       Q.   So on the evening in question, after you had left this function

 4    and were with your mother, watching TV, it could have very well been that

 5    the clip you observed of Mr. Susak was nothing but foul footage; correct?

 6       A.   Yes, it was, definitely.

 7       Q.   Thank you.  One more question to clarify.  The Bishop of Mostar

 8    was actually at this party; correct?

 9       A.   Yes.  It was Mr. Ratko Peric.  "P" for "Peter", "E", "R" for

10    "Romeo", "I" for "India", "C" for "Charlie".

11            MR. MEEK:  I have no further questions, Your Honours.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  Mr. Seric, do you have any questions in

13    your cross-examination?

14            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

15            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness, in her

16    testimony, did not mention the client, and therefore we have no reason --

17    we have no ground for any cross-examination.  Thank you.

18            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  Mr. Stringer, re-examination.

19            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  It's just one issue,

20    Mr. President.  I'll gladly take any guidance from the Trial Chamber on

21    how I ought to proceed.

22            The witness, in her cross-examination from Mr. Meek, the words

23    "extermination" and "expel" came up, particularly in terms of what she

24    said or didn't say in the witness statement.  Counsel did not put the

25    witness statement to the witness, so that she didn't have an opportunity

Page 3085

 1    to see what she did or didn't say on that issue during her interview with

 2    the investigator.  However, in my view, I think counsel did attempt to

 3    impeach the witness to some extent by trying to draw a distinction or

 4    difference between what she said today and what she said previously.  And

 5    so with the Trial Chamber's permission or guidance, I would like to -- I

 6    would ask to have an opportunity to rehabilitate on this issue - we call

 7    it back home "prior consistent statements" - which is something that can

 8    be done with leave of the Trial Chamber if a witness has been shown or if

 9    there's been a suggestion of a prior inconsistent statement during the

10    cross-examination.  What I would like to ask the Trial Chamber, if I could

11    simply put the witness statement to the witness so that she could state

12    exactly what she said on that issue during the interview that she was

13    asked about during the cross-examination.

14                          [Trial Chamber confers]

15            JUDGE LIU:  I saw Mr. Meek is standing.

16            MR. MEEK:  May it please Your Honours, I believe that I did

17    exactly ask this witness if she had reviewed her statement given to the

18    OTP, and she said yes, she had reviewed her statement that was given to

19    the OTP prior to her testimony today.

20            THE WITNESS:  I said not completely, and you can read it over.  I

21    apologise to Judge, but I know what I said.

22            JUDGE LIU:  Please, please.

23            THE WITNESS:  Sorry, Your Honour.

24            MR. MEEK:  This has been a continuing, ongoing problem with the

25    witness prior to this, and that problem is the witnesses seem to jump into

Page 3086

 1    questions when we try to speak to the Judges.  I think it's highly

 2    inappropriate, and I wish that they could be directed not to do so.

 3            But I would just say, Your Honours, that she was asked whether she

 4    read the statement that she prepared, she indicated she had reviewed that

 5    prior to her testimony, and now I think it's inappropriate to now let her

 6    review it again.  It's not proper.

 7            JUDGE LIU:  Well, this Trial Chamber believes that the Prosecutor

 8    has the right to show the witness the statement and to refresh her

 9    recollections on this matter.

10            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'll try to lay a

11    foundation for doing that before proceeding.

12                          Re-examined by Mr. Stringer:

13       Q.   Witness V, you were asked during your cross-examination about the

14    interview you gave to an investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor.  Do

15    you recall that interview?

16       A.   Yes, I do.

17       Q.   And you referred to a statement which you then signed after that

18    interview was completed, which is dated the 26th of February and the 1st

19    of March, 2001.

20       A.   -- switch the microphone.  Thank you.

21       Q.   In that interview, or in that statement, I should say, do you

22    recall what, if anything, you said about --

23            JUDGE CLARK:  Mr. Stringer, you're going about this in a very

24    laboured way.  She made a statement.  She admitted she made a statement.

25    There's no dispute that she made a statement.  Bring her straight to the

Page 3087

 1    point that's in conflict.  You're entitled to do this.  You don't have to

 2    lay the ground.  You're not impugning the witness.  You're confusing, in

 3    my view, the procedure for declaring a witness hostile.

 4            This is your own witness.  An issue has arisen.  Take her straight

 5    to the point.  We know that she has made a statement.  We don't have to

 6    waste time on that.  Just take her straight to the statement and then

 7    furnish us with the part of the statement that you want to draw her

 8    attention to.  We know what you're doing.

 9            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Judge Clark.  I will then do that.

10            I will ask the usher if the usher can provide a copy of this

11    document to the witness.  I'm going to refer the witness to the bottom

12    last appearing on page 7.  I have -- the Trial Chamber, I think, declined

13    to look at the statement -- there was a previous time we refreshed

14    recollection.  I think the Trial Chamber declined to look at the statement

15    at that time.  I have an additional copy, actually an additional number of

16    copies, which I could provide if the Trial Chamber would like to see

17    those.

18            JUDGE CLARK:  Perhaps, first of all, you establish that she did

19    say something; and then if she does agree that she said it and you find

20    it, then maybe we will have a look at it.  If you don't, if you don't

21    establish that it was said, maybe we won't see it.

22            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Judge Clark.

23       Q.   Witness V, if I could direct your attention to the last paragraph

24    on page 7, and if you could read that paragraph to yourself, I'm then

25    going to ask you about it.

Page 3088

 1       A.   Yeah, I read.

 2       Q.   Does that paragraph refresh your memory as to whether you said

 3    anything about any intentions in respect of the Muslims in Mostar, whether

 4    anything was said at this banquet on that issue?

 5       A.   It says clearly that they talked in general terms of getting rid

 6    of the Muslims, and that was the talk that they had.  It was a common talk

 7    among Croatian nationalists at that point in time.

 8       Q.   Do you recall informing the investigator of that during the course

 9    of this interview?

10       A.   I told him that.  I told him the words, but I didn't think that

11    mattered that much.  I summed it up, getting rid of Muslims, general talk

12    of getting rid of Muslims.

13            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you.

14            Mr. President, no further questions.

15            JUDGE CLARK:  We have a problem here, Mr. Stringer, of coming from

16    different jurisdictions.  But the general principle that is common to all

17    our legal systems is that we are in search of justice.  Now, the normal

18    way when the contents of a statement are disputed - and it's the

19    Prosecution case that certain words were said and it's the Defence case

20    that words were not said - it is normal for you to identify a passage and

21    to establish that the Prosecution's position is correct or, indeed, it

22    could be the Defence position is correct, if it's a Defence witness.  But

23    all we've had is some generalities.  You brought this witness back and

24    brought the statement back to assist the Court.  And as far as I

25    understand you, your position is that this witness did, indeed, say words

Page 3089

 1    that the Defence deny she used.

 2            Now, you haven't brought us, or this witness, to the words or the

 3    paragraphs.  Can you do that?

 4            MR. STRINGER:  Yes.  I believe the witness is referring to the

 5    bottom -- the last paragraph appearing on page 7 of the statement.

 6            JUDGE CLARK:  If you look at the transcript, you asked, Do you

 7    recall informing the investigator -- no, it says clearly that they talked

 8    in general terms of getting rid of the Muslims, and that was the talk that

 9    they had.

10            Is that a synopsis by this witness of what she said, or is it

11    actually what she said?  That isn't clear to me.

12            MR. STRINGER:  I apologise, Judge Clark.

13       Q.   Now, having looked at that part of your witness statement, can you

14    tell us, if you can, what exactly are the words that you used in

15    describing this issue as contained in your witness statement?

16       A.   They said repeatedly they will expel Muslims from Mostar, Muslims

17    will swim across the River Neretva, which is the river dividing the city.

18    And they are going to make Mostar Croatian, pure Croatian city.

19       Q.   Let me ask you now, when you make reference to those statements,

20    how is that referred to in the witness statement which is in front of you?

21       A.   I told Terry these things, and I just summed it up, saying they

22    were basically referring they were going to get rid of Muslims.

23       Q.   In the witness statement, you said, "They talked in general terms

24    of getting rid of the Muslims."  Is that correct?

25       A.   Yeah.

Page 3090

 1            MR. STRINGER:  Unless I have failed to clarify this to the Trial

 2    Chamber's satisfaction, I have no further questions.

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Meek.

 4            MR. MEEK:  Just several --

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Are you going to do the cross-examination again?

 6            MR. MEEK:  Well, it would be re-cross-examination, Your Honour.

 7    He had several questions, and I only have then a couple more questions I

 8    need to ask.  Slow it down a little bit.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  I think there should be an end of this.

10            MR. MEEK:  There must be an end --

11            JUDGE LIU:  -- of the cross-examination, there should be an end.

12            MR. MEEK:  If you will allow me, I will bring it to an end very

13    quickly.

14            JUDGE LIU:  Is it very important to you?

15            MR. MEEK:  Yes.  Yes, it is, Your Honour.  Of course.

16            JUDGE LIU:  So as an exception, I will allow you to do that, but

17    your cross-examination is subject to re-examination, or re-re-examination,

18    you have to bear in mind.

19            MR. MEEK:  Absolutely.

20                          Re-cross-examined by Mr. Meek:

21       Q.   Witness V, when you gave your witness statement on the two days,

22    you spoke in English, did you not?

23       A.   I did.

24            MR. MEEK:  Thank you.

25            JUDGE LIU:  We all understand that the witness is not a lawyer.

Page 3091

 1   She could not distinguish the terminologies we use in the indictment or in

 2    the daily life, so when the Chamber evaluates this evidence, we will take

 3    note of that.

 4            And I will ask the Prosecutor to furnish us with the statement.

 5            MR. STRINGER:  We will do that, Mr. President.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

 7            Judge Diarra has a question.

 8                          Questioned by the Court:

 9            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Witness, when you were sent this

10    invitation, did the inter-ethnic tension - I have to speak about that, I'm

11    sorry - but was it already noticeable?

12       A.   Yes, it was.  It was obvious, yes.

13            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] And you were invited personally or

14    representing the profession?  Will you please tell me who was it that

15    invited you?

16       A.   I really don't know because we were getting too many invitations

17    at a certain point.  But I know that I was asked (redacted) to

18    go in there.  It was most probably addressed to me.  And to this day, I

19    really can't understand why did he do that.  Because he knew my stance, he

20    knew that I could never, ever agree.  And I was probably only not pure

21    Croat in that room.  I was the only non-pure Croat in that room.

22            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] But was it an invitation to the

23    festivity, and you were not going there to express your views on ethnic

24    groups or to --

25       A.   Yes, it was --

Page 3092

 1            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] -- receive something from Tuta or

 2    something?

 3       A.   -- celebration, but it turned out into something else.  Yes, I

 4    was, in previous, to many Easter, Christmas celebration.  I don't have any

 5    objections against that.

 6            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you, Witness, for giving the evidence.  We wish

 8    you good luck.

 9            THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

10            JUDGE LIU:  When the blinds are pulled down, the usher will show

11    you out of the room.

12            THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

13                          [The witness withdrew]

14            JUDGE LIU:  So, Mr. Stringer, what do you suggest us to do?

15            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, it appears that there is a pretty

16    short period of time between now and the lunch break.  The Prosecutor will

17    propose to break now for lunch, and then to continue after lunch with the

18    continued cross-examination of Witness U.

19            JUDGE LIU:  Would you please give us a rough idea who will be the

20    next witness, I mean, after this afternoon's witness?

21            MR. STRINGER:  Yes, I can do so in private session, Mr. President,

22    because I think the next witness is asking for protective measures.

23            JUDGE LIU:  So we'll go into the private session.

24                          [Private session]

25    (redacted)

Page 3093











11  Pages 3093-3096 redacted.  Private session.















Page 3097

 1                --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m. [Open session]

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Par, please continue with cross-examination.

 3            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I would kindly

 4    ask to have a private session, because we are dealing with a set of

 5    questions for which we need protective measures.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  We will go into the private session.

 7                          [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3098











11  Pages 3098-3107 redacted.  Private session.















Page 3108

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13                          [Open session]

14            JUDGE LIU:  We are now in the open session.

15            MR. PAR:

16       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness U, you were still at the Heliodrom.  And

17    I would like to ask you something to do with the Croat units that you

18    mentioned, that you said were at the Heliodrom.  If you remember, you

19    mentioned yesterday that allegedly, there was a Croatian unit, a unit from

20    Croatia, from Osijek.  And you told us roughly about its technical and

21    operative tasks in Mostar.  Is that correct, and do you remember telling

22    us about that?

23       A.   Yes, that is correct, because we could watch them from the second

24    floor of the school that we were kept in.

25       Q.   Very well.  And that is where I'm heading.  Looking through this

Page 3109

 1    window, could you really learn all about their technical tasks in Mostar?

 2    How could you learn all that?

 3       A.   No, of course I could not, just by looking through the window.

 4    The HVO soldiers who were in the barracks -- at first we could see from

 5    the window which part of the city was being shelled because it was all

 6    aflame.  And an hour or two later, HVO soldiers started hugging one

 7    another, congratulating -- and congratulating somebody, I presume the unit

 8    of that Croatian -- unit from Croatia, that is, and I overheard a

 9    discussion.  I heard them say, "We'll be at Blagaj in no time."

10       Q.   Tell us -- later on during your investigations and in your

11    analysis later on, you could gather different information.  Did you ask

12    for and did you get information about what you have just told us?  Did you

13    ever try to relate the later knowledge that you acquired with what you saw

14    there?

15       A.   No.  It wasn't all that interesting.  It happened only one day,

16    and I spent two months working with regard to some other Croatian units.

17    What I learned was that some 50 men from that unit from Croatia were

18    killed in the attack.

19       Q.   I'm asking you this because I'm trying to make a distinction

20    between your direct knowledge and what you learned at a later date.  You

21    spoke about numerous prisoners killed at the front line, about their

22    woundings and so on and so forth.  And so my question is as follows:

23    Did -- that knowledge is the result of your subsequent investigations,

24    (redacted)

25    (redacted) or is it something that you learned directly personally in

Page 3110

 1    the camp?  Could you tell apart, and can we then try to differentiate

 2    between what you know personally and what you heard?

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5            JUDGE LIU:  I have to warn you that this witness is under the

 6    protective measures.

 7            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I really tried not to

 8    specify the job or the post.  I tried somehow to put it in general terms,

 9    and I hope I did not imperil this witness.

10            JUDGE CLARK:  Mr. Par, sorry.  I'm having a terrible difficulty

11    following the translation, and the translator seems under pressure as

12    well.  You speak fast, that's your style, and I think she can keep up with

13    that.  Where we're having a problem is that as soon as your question is

14    finished, the witness replies.  So could both of you give us, who don't

15    understand your language, a chance.  I mean, it's a question of both of

16    you are doing it.  We have it whenever witnesses are speaking the same

17    language as the interrogator.  So could you just try to remember, because

18    it's impossible for us to make sense of this very important evidence.

19    Thank you.

20            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21       Q.   If you are ready to answer this, will you please do that and draw

22    the distinction between the two?

23       A.   Could you please repeat your question?

24       Q.   Well, my question has to do with differentiating between the

25    information that you presented during your evidence.  I'm referring to

Page 3111

 1    prisoners, victims and so on.  So my question is:  How can we

 2    differentiate between your personal -- between what you personally saw and

 3    what you learnt at a later stage?  Could you tell us, how can we then

 4    say -- tell which is which?

 5       A.   Oh, yes, absolutely.  Anything that I say here is based

 6    exclusively on what I saw and experienced in a camp.  Whenever I mention

 7    something that I heard from others, I will say so.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  Now, were you ever put in what is usually termed as a

 9    "human shield"?

10       A.   No.  I told you that I was prohibited from leaving the camp.

11       Q.   Did you ever personally see a prisoner of war being wounded or

12    killed?

13       A.   No, but I saw very many wounded in my room.

14       Q.   Now I should like to ask you to look at a map, because I want to

15    discuss the positions of the Vinko Skrobo unit.

16            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] So can the usher please help me?  This

17    is Exhibit 14.5, and Prosecution's exhibit.  And now I would like to show

18    you this photograph and will ask you to focus, because I have some

19    questions to ask you about it.

20            JUDGE LIU:  And could this photograph be put on the ELMO?

21            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes, please, if you could do this.

22       Q.   Witness U, can you find your way about this?  Are you familiar

23    with this part of the town and do you know what this photograph

24    represents?

25       A.   Oh, yes, I recognise it very well indeed.

Page 3112












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 3113

 1       Q.   Can you now use the pointer - you will find it in front of you -

 2    and will you please show where was Vinko Skrobo ATG or Mrmak positioned?

 3    Can you please show it to us?

 4       A.   This is the photograph of Mostar after the war, not before the

 5    war.  This is the renewed Health Centre.  South of it, here, is the

 6    Franciscan convent.  To the north is the secondary school and the Spanish

 7    Square.  I think that Mr. Martinovic's unit operated in this area,

 8    precisely in the area shown on this photograph.  That is what I think.  I

 9    had no opportunity during the war to see that because I never left the

10    camp during the war, so I had no opportunity to see that with my own eyes.

11       Q.   Very well.  Now, will you please take one of the markers and

12    make -- and circle what you believe was the zone that you are talking

13    about?

14       A.   I think it's this part from the Health Centre to the south, so

15    so-called "Gospin Park" which is next to the church.

16       Q.   Will you please just make a circle?

17       A.   Well, there is not really any need to do any such thing.

18            JUDGE CLARK:  Mr. Par, just a few minutes ago you were very

19    careful with this witness to ask him to distinguish between what he knew

20    from his own knowledge and what he knew from what people told him.  Why

21    are you asking this witness to circle something which he has said quite

22    clearly is not from his own knowledge, because he was not out of the

23    prison during the war, and only what he believes to be the situation?

24            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I do understand your objection, Your

25    Honour.  And with your leave, I will explain why.

Page 3114

 1            In his yesterday's testimony, the witness said that the front

 2    line, manned by the Vinko Skrobo unit, was about 400 metres long, and I

 3    wanted the witness to tell us which 400 metres, which area did he have in

 4    mind, so that in my defence I could then move on to prove where the front

 5    line was in reality.  That is, I simply wanted to check his yesterday's

 6    statement that it was 400 metres.  But if you think this is not necessary,

 7    that will be all right with me and I will move on to something else,

 8    because actually I have no other questions in this regard.

 9            JUDGE CLARK:  Mr. Par, I don't want to interrupt your

10    cross-examination.  I was just wondering, because you made such a

11    distinction between hearsay and actual knowledge, why you were asking him

12    to indicate on the map, because the witness has said that he didn't really

13    know, it's just from what he heard from other people.  But if you think

14    it's important, please don't let me stop you.

15            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I think that -- at least as far as I'm

16    concerned, I've clarified that point, but I can ask a specific question.

17       Q.   Witness U, yesterday, when you said that Vinko Skrobo, ATG, went

18    some 400 metres over the separation line, would it be roughly the area

19    that you pointed at?  Do you think it is about 400 metres and a little bit

20    more to the South, but you can see it on this photograph, another 100

21    metres or so towards the church.  You cannot see it here because this is

22    only part of the area shown here.

23                     [Cannot distinguish between Q and A]

24       Q.   Very well.  And this is the information that you learned from

25    somebody else?

Page 3115

 1       A.   Absolutely so.  I did not see any of this.

 2       Q.   Very well.  All the knowledge that you have about the Vinko Skrobo

 3    unit regarding its strength, its tasks, its possible tasks, is all that

 4    information something that you learned from -- that you learned

 5    second-hand, something that is not your own knowledge?

 6       A.   That is correct.

 7            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I'm coming to the end of my

 8    cross-examination.

 9       Q.   Now, Witness, please, during your detention at Heliodrom, did your

10    family -- was your family abreast of what was happening to you?  Did they

11    know whether you were dead or alive or what?

12       A.   What family do you have in mind?

13       Q.   I mean your family, the family that you live with, your next of

14    kin?

15       A.   My wife and my son did not know whether I was dead or alive, and

16    my brothers were in the camp with me.

17       Q.   Now, would that hold true of other prisoners, and was that the

18    routine situation?

19       A.   Don't ask me that.  I really cannot speak on behalf of the whole

20    camp.  I'm sorry.

21       Q.   Very well.  Let's go back to what you can tell us about yourself.

22            Did, perhaps, your family get some hearsay, hear some rumours,

23    about what had happened to you?  Did they get any information?  Do you

24    know that?

25       A.   Sir, you seem not to have been in this courtroom yesterday.  I

Page 3116

 1    told you that my wife and my son went to Serbia in the early days of it.

 2            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not want to have any

 3    problem with the witness, so that I should like to thank you.  This is the

 4    end of my cross-examination.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

 6            Any re-examination?

 7            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no further

 8    questions for Witness U.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Judge Diarra.

10            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11                          Questioned by the Court:

12            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Witness U, in the beginning of your

13    testimony, you spoke about your first arrest, your brothers' and your

14    arrest in your apartment, and armed men who came, who then conducted

15    searches saying that they were looking for weapons in your house.

16            Did they find any weapons in your house at the time of your

17    arrest?  If they did not, under what pretext did they arrest you?

18       A.   They found absolutely no weapons, nor did I ever have any

19    weapons.  I was a civilian until I returned from the camp.  And my

20    brother, who was an HVO member, had to leave his weapon with the unit.

21    And the reason they took me away was because I was a Bosniak.  They did

22    not take any Croats away for such reason.

23            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you, Witness, for helping us by giving us the

25    evidence.  We all wish you good luck.  And the usher

Page 3117

 1    will show you out of the room once he pulls the blinds down.

 2            THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours, for your patience and

 3    understanding.

 4                          [The witness withdraws]

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Are there any documents you would like to tender,

 6    Mr. Prosecutor?

 7            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Yes, Your Honour, I would like to tender

 8    Exhibit P11.18/2.  That's the only document.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Yes, Mr. Par.

10            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no documents to

11    tender, and I have no objections to the admission of this document.

12            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no objections.

13            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  This document is tendered into

14    evidence.  Madam Registrar will give a proper number.

15            THE REGISTRAR:  The exhibit is now numbered PP11.18/2.

16            JUDGE LIU:  So who will deal with the next witness?

17            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  I will deal with the next witness, and I think we

18    should discuss some issues relevant to this witness.  When our next

19    witness, who is to be called to testify now, arrived here, he told us that

20    he did not need any specific protective measures.  But the only one, his

21    full name not to be pronounced in the courtroom.  He would rather -- he

22    would prefer to be called in the courtroom by his first name.  It's just

23    something unusual, I know, in the practice of the Tribunal.  But that was

24    his desire, because he considers that his first name may be considered as

25    a sort of pseudonym.

Page 3118

 1            But I know that there is a special procedure here for giving

 2    pseudonyms to witnesses.  So I leave it at your discretion to decide.

 3    Anyway, I have prepared two documents, two papers, relevant to this

 4    witness, whether it will be Witness W, if you give him our traditional

 5    pseudonym, or his unusual pseudonym, Salko.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Did you explain to him the difference between the

 7    pseudonym and the first name?

 8            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Yes, Your Honour.  I did my best.  I did my best.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  I think according to the practice of this Tribunal, we

10    better use a pseudonym.

11            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  I agree, Your Honour, and I would like to explain

12    everything to the witness when he appears here.

13            JUDGE LIU:  Any objections?

14            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as before, no

15    objections.  We comply with every decision that you make, and we also

16    accept -- go along with all the wishes of our learned friends.

17            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

18            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] No objections.

19            JUDGE LIU:  So we could bring the witness in.

20            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Yes.  And I think that now we should discuss this

21    problem in the presence of our witness.

22                          [The witness entered court]

23            JUDGE LIU:  Good afternoon, Witness.

24            THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Would you make the solemn declaration.

Page 3119

 1            THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 2    speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3            JUDGE LIU:  You may sit down, please.

 4            THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 5                               WITNESS:  Salko Osmic.

 6                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7                          Examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

 8       Q.   Witness, I would like to discuss one problem with you.  On your

 9    arrival here in The Hague, you stated that you wouldn't like your full

10    name to be known in the courtroom, to be known to the public.  And your

11    preference was to be called in the courtroom by your first name.

12            Just before you came here in this courtroom, this problem was

13    discussed with the Trial Chamber, and I am authorised to inform you that

14    according to the practice that exists here in the Tribunal, of the

15    Tribunal, in such situations, witnesses are given a pseudonym for better

16    protection of your identity during the trial.  And the pseudonym that will

17    be given to you is in alphabetical order, Witness W.  So in this way you

18    will be called in the courtroom "Witness W."

19            Do you agree?

20       A.   I do not.  I thought it could be done the way I suggested.  If

21    not, then let it be my full name.

22       Q.   Do you mean that you need not any protection?  Would you like to

23    testify in open session?

24            THE INTERPRETER:  The microphones of the witness are both switched

25    off.  We could not hear his answer.

Page 3120

 1            MR. PORIOUVAEV:

 2       Q.   Would you answer, please.

 3       A.   Yes, I want to testify publicly.

 4            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Okay, thank you.  Then I think there should be

 5    made some preparations in the courtroom now for the open session.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  If this is your wish, we will use your full name, and

 7    the trial will be conducted in the open session.

 8            Yes.  You may proceed, Mr. Prosecutor.

 9            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  All right.

10       Q.   So, Witness, your full name, your first name, your date of birth?

11       A.   My name is Salko Osmic.  I was born near Prozor on the 10th of

12    August, 1969.

13       Q.   What is your nationality?

14       A.   Muslim.

15       Q.   Did you have any military background in the former Yugoslavia?

16       A.   No, except the Yugoslav People's Army, that is, doing my military

17    service with it.  Everybody -- that is, every young man had to serve it,

18    and that was all.  Nothing beyond that.

19       Q.   How long did your act of service in the Yugoslav army last?

20       A.   It lasted one year.

21       Q.   Did you live in Prozor municipality all the time?  I mean before

22    the war, I mean the war -- 1991, let's say.

23       A.   Well, yes, I only lived in Prozor, nowhere else.

24       Q.   I don't think that it's necessary to give the name or the precise

25    place where you lived.  Was it just a town or a village?

Page 3121

 1       A.   A village.

 2       Q.   Did you ever leave Prozor municipality for a certain period of

 3    time?

 4       A.   Yes.  For a while, I worked in Croatia, for about eight months.

 5       Q.   When?

 6       A.   In 1987 or '88.  I'm not really sure.

 7       Q.   Did you leave Prozor during the wartime, I mean from 1991, let's

 8    say, up to 1993?

 9       A.   I don't really understand the question.  Going where?

10       Q.   Okay, I will repeat or rephrase.  Did you leave Prozor for some

11    other locality in the period between '91 and 1993?

12       A.   Do you mean only Bosnia, or do you mean my moving elsewhere in

13    Bosnia, perhaps going to Croatia or something like that?

14       Q.   [Previous translation continues]... Bosnia?

15       A.   Well, I did go up to Jablanica, Konjic, Vakuf.  That would be the

16    range, and those are all nearby towns.

17       Q.   I don't mean for short visits, but some longer period of time.

18       A.   No, no, I did not.

19       Q.   Did you ever stay in Jablanica municipality?

20       A.   Well, no, it was a nearby town, and only for a day or maybe two.

21       Q.   What was happening in Prozor municipality in the fall of 1992?

22       A.   Could you be more precise, please?  Could you phrase your question

23    more precisely, please?

24       Q.   Yes.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Well, well --

Page 3122












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 3123

 1            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  I can do that.

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Prosecutor, why don't you ask directly by,

 3    "What did you do during the war," or some question like this?

 4            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  We have not come up to it yet.  But if you would

 5    like to make it shorter, I can do that, I can do that.  I wouldn't like,

 6    sorry, beating about the bush.

 7       Q.   Precisely what were you doing during November 1992 in your village

 8    where you lived during the period of time where there were some military

 9    operations in the territory of Prozor municipality?

10       A.   At the beginning of the aggression again the B and H, I joined

11    voluntarily the Territorial Defence, the TO.  And then we went to the

12    lines, to the front lines, and we worked in shifts.

13       Q.   Was it a professional military unit?

14       A.   I cannot really say, explain.  I think it was something like

15    that.  It was a joint army of Muslims and Croats under the Territorial

16    Defence.

17       Q.   And was it still a mixed unit in November -- in October 1992?

18       A.   Yes, it was.

19       Q.   And you just told in your testimony something about aggression.

20    Which aggression do you mean?

21       A.   Well, I mean the Serb aggression.

22       Q.   And what happened in your village later in the fall of 1992,

23    before you left it?

24       A.   Well, when the HVO attacked Prozor, we remained at home.  There

25    were some attacks against us.  But then things calmed down until the HVO

Page 3124

 1    attack began on Jablanica, and then I remained home.

 2       Q.   And when did the HVO attack Prozor?

 3       A.   I think it was in October 1992.

 4       Q.   Did you participate in the defence of your village?

 5       A.   Yes, I did.

 6       Q.   What kind of weapons did you have?

 7       A.   An old M-48 rifle.

 8       Q.   You just told that at some period of time in April '93, you moved

 9    to Sovici.  Did you keep your weapons and take it with you?

10       A.   Yes, I took my weapons with me.

11       Q.   Why did you move to that area?

12       A.   Could you please repeat the question?

13       Q.   You just told that there was some attack that was launched in

14    Jablanica.  So for some period of time you stayed at home, and then you

15    moved to the Jablanica area?

16       A.   Well, the attack against Jablanica began on April 15th and the

17    attack against Sovici on the 17th.  So when the attack started against

18    Jablanica, several of us, to see -- wanted to see what was going on there

19    and to help the people there, and that is why we went to Sovici.

20       Q.   Did you report to any military command, on your arrival to Sovici,

21    on your purposes and on yourself?

22       A.   Yes, we reported to them.

23       Q.   How many people were together with you?  You are talking about

24    some people, as I understand from your testimony, "we."  How many people

25    were there with you?

Page 3125

 1       A.   There were five of us, five of us, five people with me.

 2       Q.   Were you admitted to the military formation that was deployed in

 3    Sovici?

 4       A.   Yes.  We were deployed on some guard posts.

 5            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Your Honour, I would ask you to just move to a

 6    private session for a short period of time, because the witness can give a

 7    name of some people whose names should be protected.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Okay, we'll go to the private session.

 9                          [Private session]

10    (redacted)

11    (redacted)

12    (redacted)

13    (redacted)

14    (redacted)

15    (redacted)

16    (redacted)

17    (redacted)

18    (redacted)

19    (redacted)

20    (redacted)

21    (redacted)

22    (redacted)

23    (redacted)

24                          [Open session]

25            JUDGE LIU:  We are now in the open session.

Page 3126

 1            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Thank you.

 2       Q.   What exactly was your assignment within that military formation?

 3       A.   Well, what we did was we were actually the village guard.  We

 4    guarded the village.

 5       Q.   From whom?

 6       A.   From the commander whose name I mentioned.  We defended the

 7    village against the people in there who were Croats and the foreign army

 8    that had come there to attack the village.

 9       Q.   Did you see any military units, other than Armija units in the

10    area of Sovici at the time when you came to that village?

11       A.   As far as I'm concerned, I didn't see it.  But some people did,

12    and they spoke about it.

13       Q.   What kind of weapons did your formation have?

14       A.   It was light weapons.  We had two mortars and a PAM, double

15    barrel.

16       Q.   Do you know more or less the geography of Sovici and the

17    surrounding area?

18       A.   Well, a little.  Some places I saw for the very first time.

19       Q.   Where did you spend your shift on the 16th of April, 1993?

20       A.   Well, in the village.  I was on guard in the village.

21       Q.   In the village itself?

22       A.   Yes, in the village itself, 20 metres -- about 20 metres from the

23    houses.

24       Q.   When did the military actions in Sovici begin?

25       A.   They started on April 17th, 'round about 8.00 a.m.

Page 3127

 1       Q.   In which location were you at that time, at the moment when the

 2    attack started?

 3       A.   On April 16th in the evening, we went out up to a hill where there

 4    was a defence; and on April 17th, I was there on the front lines of the

 5    attack.

 6       Q.   Did you see the beginning of the attack?

 7       A.   As far as the beginning of the attack is concerned, it started by

 8    the shelling of the village, and then there was an infantry attack that

 9    followed.

10       Q.   From where was the shelling coming to the village?

11       A.   Well, the village was totally encircled -- rather, from three

12    sides.  And at the time, I was on a hill, and the village was below.  So I

13    couldn't see very well.  But they were basically from the direction of

14    Blidinje.

15       Q.   Was it possible to observe from the hill what exactly was

16    happening during the attack in the village itself?

17       A.   Well, what one could see more clearly was the attack by the tanks,

18    the destruction of the houses, and the stalls.  This could be seen more

19    clearly.

20       Q.   And what about your group of military during that attack?  Did you

21    put up any resistance?

22       A.   Well, we did resist with what we had at our disposal, and we

23    didn't have much.  Five people were killed on that occasion.  And at

24    2.00 p.m. in the afternoon, we left our positions.

25       Q.   And which unit was involved in the attack on Sovici on your unit,

Page 3128

 1    on AbiH forces?

 2       A.   Please repeat the question.

 3       Q.   Who attacked you?  Who attacked the village?

 4       A.   I was not informed who took part in the attack; but afterwards,

 5    when I was arrested, I found out that Tuta's units was involved, the KB,

 6    the Convicts' Battalion.

 7       Q.   I would ask you -- just we will talk about some specific units

 8    further, but now I would like to -- did you see the soldiers who were

 9    attacking the village?

10       A.   Well, I saw, but from afar.  I couldn't really see which

11    formations were involved.

12       Q.   To which army did they belong?

13       A.   Well, of course, they belonged to the HVO.

14       Q.   Did you leave the place where you were having your assignment with

15    your weapons?

16       A.   Yes, we left our positions with our weapons.

17       Q.   How long did that attack last?

18       A.   From 8.00 a.m. to about 2.00 p.m., as far as I can remember.

19       Q.   And did you observe from the hills what was happening in the

20    village after it was secured by the HVO?

21       A.   Well, when the retreat from the lines took place, we approached

22    the village.  And there was general panic there, people crying, shouting,

23    and that was the atmosphere.  The village was placed under the control of

24    the HVO.

25       Q.   Did you see any houses in the village destroyed at that time?

Page 3129

 1       A.   Well, I didn't see that then.  We -- we saw that when we were on

 2    the -- up on the hill, we saw the tanks hit the buildings, the houses.

 3    But when we got down, it was dark already after some time, and then we

 4    went towards Jablanica.  And after that, we saw nothing.

 5       Q.   And why did you go in the direction of Jablanica?

 6       A.   I didn't understand the question.

 7       Q.   Why did you go with the rest of your unit in the direction of

 8    Jablanica?

 9       A.   Well, the -- the rest of our unit was there.  At the beginning,

10    there were four or five.  Of course we were going to the free territory,

11    that's why we went to Jablanica, to avoid being killed by the HVO army.

12       Q.   Please don't talk into the microphone, because if you are too

13    close to the microphone, there may be some interferences.  Just you should

14    be close enough, but not too close to the microphone.  Okay?

15       A.   [No audible response]

16       Q.   Did you manage to join -- I'm sorry.  Did you reach Jablanica?

17       A.   Unfortunately, we did not succeed in reaching Jablanica.

18       Q.   Why?  What happened?

19       A.   There was a lot of Croatian army around who blocked all the entry

20    points towards Jablanica, and then we were trapped by them and then

21    arrested.

22       Q.   How many soldiers were arrested together with you?

23       A.   There were about seven, including myself, and two minors.  Nine,

24    all in all.

25       Q.   And who were the people who arrested you?

Page 3130

 1       A.   We went to -- towards the people who were living there and

 2    belonged to the HVO.

 3       Q.   Where does it take you after you had been arrested?

 4       A.   In the direction of Ljubuski.

 5       Q.   Did you say -- I mean these local soldiers explained to you where

 6    you were to be taken?

 7       A.   As regards the local soldiers, they were also very much under

 8    strong control and command, and they were afraid of the army also, but a

 9    little less than us.  It was only when we went down to the command there,

10    then Tuta and his soldiers directed us to Ljubuski.

11       Q.   Let's expand a little bit on the command.  What do you understand

12    by "the command"?

13       A.   This is a meeting point where they took us, where the main

14    commander, Tuta, was, and the rest of the army that was there.

15       Q.   Did you see any soldiers there other than local soldiers from the

16    HVO?

17       A.   Well, yes, of course.  There were quite a number of those outside

18    soldiers who were a little different from the locals.

19            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  I think, Your Honour, now the time for the break

20    is coming up, and I've got some more questions.

21            JUDGE LIU:  But we'll adjourn at this moment.  We'll resume at

22    9.30 tomorrow morning.  Oh, sorry.  We'll resume at 2.00 in the

23    afternoon.  I'm sorry about that.

24                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

25                          4.01 p.m., to be reconvened on

Page 3131












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 3132

 1                          Thursday, the 27th day of September, 2000,

 2                          at 2.00 p.m.