Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3579

1 Wednesday, 10 October, 2001

2 [Closed session]










12 Pages 3579 to 3654 – redacted –closed session.













25 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.54 p.m.

Page 3655

1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos. Please continue.

4 MR. BOS: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Q. Witness, we left off before the break that you testified that you

6 had become a member of the 2nd Mostar Battalion of the ABiH army. My next

7 question will be what -- do you know what happened on the 9th of May,

8 1993?

9 A. On 9 May 1993, around -- around 6.00, 6.30 - I don't know exactly

10 myself any more - the HVO launched an attack against the ABiH positions,

11 that is, against the headquarters of the 4th Corps of the ABiH in -- at

12 the Vranica building, and I was there. First there was an artillery

13 attack which was followed by an infantry attack.

14 Q. You said that you were at the Vranica building on the morning of

15 the 9th of May; is that correct?

16 A. I was not in the building itself. I was in the complex. This was

17 in the logistics centre, which was part of that complex. So I climbed up

18 on the roof and across the rooftops I crossed over into the headquarters

19 building.

20 Q. At what time did you actually climb up on the roof of the Vranica

21 building?

22 A. This was sometime in the afternoon, around 1.00 or 2.00 in the

23 afternoon.

24 Q. And how long did you stay on the roof?

25 A. For at least five or six hours. Let's say I was there from 2.00

Page 3656

1 until about 8.00, when this got dark.

2 Q. Why did you stay for such a long time on that roof?

3 A. Because there was a lot of -- there was a lot of shelling. There

4 was a lot a fire directed at the building from the anti-aircraft

5 machine-guns, and throughout this time there was daylight. So it was not

6 worth trying to get off.

7 Q. But when it got later and it got darker, you were able to get into

8 the building; is that correct?

9 A. Yes. Again we used an area where the elevator room was, and from

10 there through an opening which was made by the anti-aircraft gun, we were

11 able to climb back down into the building.

12 MR. BOS: I'd like the witness to be shown Exhibit 16.4, please.

13 We're not getting a very clear picture on the monitor. I'm not sure

14 whether that's only this monitor or -- there seems to be a reflection.

15 Yes, that's better. Yes.

16 Q. Now, Witness, do you recognise this photograph?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What does it depict?

19 A. You can see the residential complex and two kiosks. I see also

20 two vehicles. And this was -- this building was call the Vranica

21 building.

22 Q. Could you please, with the pointer, indicate where on the roof --

23 where you spent this afternoon on the 9th of May on the roof, on which

24 spot on the roof.

25 A. I was here, on this part of the roof.

Page 3657

1 Q. Very well.

2 A. And from here you can see the protruding house -- the housing for

3 the elevator, and this is where the brigade was.

4 Q. Where was the location of the headquarters in this building?

5 A. It was right here underneath; that is, the brigade command was

6 right there.

7 Q. Would that be on the second floor? You are pointing at the second

8 or the third floor. Is that correct?

9 A. You cannot see where it was from the greenery.

10 Q. But on which floor of the building was it?

11 A. It was actually not on any of the upper floors. It was in the

12 basement.

13 Q. So the headquarters was situated in the basement, and the rest of

14 the floors were all occupied by residents. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 Now, what happened the next day, on the 10th of May? Did the

18 attack continue on the 10th of May?

19 A. The attack continued on the morning of the 10th of May. It was

20 still more intense. They started firing at the apartments where people

21 were living.

22 Q. Did there come a time that fire broke out in the Vranica building?

23 A. No, this was only after the third or fourth attack when the

24 bullets had been fired in the basement where the inhabitants were. It was

25 then that we withdrew to the upper floors. It was then that they started

Page 3658

1 shooting at the apartments, and bullets pierced through the windows and

2 doors to the areas where the civilian population was. And from these

3 bullets, one RPG had incendiary bullets, and it was -- that building

4 caught fire. And I think this was sometime around 2.00 or 3.00 in the

5 afternoon.

6 Q. Did there come a time when the situation became hopeless and that

7 you decided to surrender?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

9 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, I object. A leading and suggestive

10 question.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, we have all heard things like this. Maybe you

12 could rephrase your question a little bit, Mr. Bos.

13 MR. BOS: I will.

14 Q. You testified that about 2.00, 3.00 fire broke out. Where were

15 you at that time and with whom were you?

16 A. At that time, we were all together. I cannot recall on which

17 floor we were, but we all hid behind the elevator. There was an area

18 behind there, and that is where bullets couldn't reach us easily. We

19 somehow tried to put out the fire, but because the shells had burst the

20 hydrants, we couldn't, and the situation was not such that we could

21 successfully put out the fire. And at one point, we decided to

22 surrender -- that is, not to surrender, but to get out of the building

23 with the civilians.

24 Q. Now, so you said that you were going to get out with the

25 civilians, out of the building. Did you at that time wear a military

Page 3659

1 uniform?

2 A. No. I changed my clothes.

3 Q. Why did you change it?

4 A. Because they broadcast through loudspeakers that they would kill

5 us all.

6 Q. And what happened when you went out of the Vranica building?

7 First of all, how big was the group of people who went out of the Vranica

8 building?

9 A. All people -- all the people who found themselves in those

10 apartments, about 20, 30 soldiers -- there's a yard behind the building.

11 And we had to come out with our hands on our heads and to walk towards the

12 School of Economy -- Economics, sorry.

13 Q. Look at the photograph. You said you were taken out, and you had

14 to move to the School of Economics. Where would the School of Economics

15 be situated in relation to the Vranica building as it has been depicted

16 here? Would it be on the front side of the building or on the back side

17 of the building?

18 A. It was here, in front of the building.

19 Q. It's a bit difficult to see.

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. Very well. Yes. Thank you.

22 Now, when you were gathered at the School of Economics, who was

23 there?

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness also be advised to move a bit

25 closer to the microphones, please.

Page 3660

1 MR. BOS:

2 Q. Witness, you would have to move a little bit closer to the

3 microphone so the interpreters can hear you better.

4 A. There were civilians, children, elderly, all kinds of people. I

5 don't know how many, but there were also children among them and elderly,

6 young people, old people.

7 Q. And who were the soldiers that had captured you?

8 A. I personally was captured by Juka, with some other members of the

9 Convicts Battalion.

10 Q. Were there also other brigades, except for Juka and the Convicts

11 Battalion, who were there at the school of economics?

12 A. That was not at the school of economics. On the 9th of May, the

13 first attack, that was a brigade from Capljina, and there was also some

14 special police who took part in the attack. And also from the 3rd Simska

15 Battalion. I can't recall all their names.

16 Q. At the school of economics, it was Juka and a unit which you

17 called the Bosanska Bojna?

18 A. Juka was a part of the Convicts Battalion.

19 Q. Did you -- was this the first time you met Juka or did you know

20 this person you called Juka from before?

21 A. That was the first time that I was that close to him, but I knew

22 who he was even before, even though we did not know each other.

23 Q. How come that you knew him even if you had not met him before?

24 A. In 1992, he was a hero of the city of Mostar. All media wrote

25 about him.

Page 3661

1 Q. And do you mean to say that you saw photographs of him in the

2 newspapers?

3 A. I saw photographs in newspapers, but I also saw him walking around

4 in Mostar prior to that.

5 Q. Now, what did Juka do at the school of economics? What happened

6 to you and the rest of the people who were guarded there?

7 A. First they told all the Croat men and women that they were free to

8 go wherever they wanted. I don't know whether he -- the Serbs were told

9 the same. And the elderly Muslims and women were told that they would be

10 escorted to the Velez stadium, and the rest of us who were fit for

11 military service were left there in front of the school of economics.

12 Q. And how many people of military -- Muslim men of military age were

13 left? How big was this group?

14 A. We were about 30, 35. I don't know exactly myself.

15 Q. And where were you taken?

16 A. Then we were taken to the Tobacco Institute where the main HVO

17 headquarters was.

18 Q. And how far a walk is that from the school of economics to this

19 HVO headquarters at the Tobacco Institute?

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

21 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honours. If it please the Court, I don't

22 think the interpreter got that question correctly, but I object to the

23 question and in the form of the question. It assumes facts not in

24 evidence, and now I'm looking at the translation. I don't think the

25 translator got the exact question. So ...

Page 3662












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Page 3663

1 MR. BOS: I don't understand this objection.

2 JUDGE LIU: I don't understand it either.

3 MR. MEEK: I'll withdraw the objection because it's showing up

4 different than the way I heard it. I'm sorry.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

6 MR. BOS:

7 Q. Do I need to repeat the question or do you remember the question?

8 A. You asked me the distance between -- the distance between the

9 school of economics and the Tobacco Institute. I would say it's about 20

10 minutes, 20 minutes on foot.

11 Q. Now, when you arrived at the Tobacco Institute, who was there?

12 A. When we arrived at the Tobacco Institute, the whole leadership of

13 the so-called HZ HB, that is, the whole military leadership of the HVO was

14 there.

15 Q. And did you recognise any of these people, and if so, could you

16 give me their names and their function?

17 A. I saw Brano Kresic [as interpreted]. He was the chief of SIS or

18 the police. Then Bozo Rajic was there. At that time he was --

19 Q. Sorry to interrupt you. If you're going to mention names, the

20 court reporters will have to record it, and so I'm going to ask you if you

21 spell out -- if you mention a name, if you could say it either very

22 carefully or spell out the name so that the court reporters can report it

23 in an accurate way.

24 Sorry to interrupt. I think you were referring to -- the first

25 person you referred to was a man named Branko Kvesic. Could you spell

Page 3664

1 that for us?

2 A. B-R-A-N-K-O, first name, K-V-E-S-I-C.

3 Q. And what was his function?

4 A. He was in charge of all the police of Herceg-Bosna.

5 Q. Yes. Please continue. Any other names?

6 A. The next name was Bozo Rajic, again, B-O-Z-O, R-A-J-I-C. I think

7 at that time he was the spokesperson for the government or something. I

8 know that he was some kind of a spokesman there.

9 I saw Petar Zelenika, P-E-T-A-R, Z-E-L-E-N-I-K-A. He was a high

10 official with the HVO. I don't know his exact position. And I don't know

11 the names of others, but some were wearing civilian and some military

12 outfits.

13 Q. Now, the first person you mentioned was Branko Kvesic. Was he the

14 same person who was your chief when you were working for the SIS?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What happened when you arrived there at the Tobacco Institute?

17 A. When we arrived at the Tobacco Institute, Branko Kvesic, when he

18 saw me, approached me and said, How could you leave without asking me?

19 You could have told me about it, and we could have found some solution. I

20 told him that I did not want to shoot at my own people. Right after that,

21 I cannot recall exactly now, but I think to his left or to his right,

22 because there was a whole group there, he suddenly called over Tuta and

23 said, "Look at this. He was with us, and then he turned his weapon and

24 started shooting at us."

25 Q. Now, you mentioned a person named Tuta. Had you seen this person

Page 3665

1 before?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know his full name?

4 A. I know from the newspapers, but I know that at that time he only

5 referred to him as "Tuta".

6 Q. But do you know his full name as well?

7 A. I know that his surname is something like Naletilic or something

8 like that.

9 Q. And you know what his function was at the time that you saw him

10 there?

11 A. Well, he had formed that brigade, the Convicts' Battalion, at

12 Siroki Brijeg, and he was the top man there.

13 Q. Now, you said that you had seen him before. Where had you seen

14 him before?

15 A. Because he used to come to Branko Kvesic at the SIS.

16 Q. Now, could you describe the man, Tuta, at the time that you saw

17 him at the Tobacco Institute. Do you know what he was wearing and how he

18 looked like?

19 A. I think he had many-coloured trousers. I don't know what kind of

20 clothes he had above the waist. He had spectacles, and his hair was

21 pepper and salt. He looked older than he really was. Long hair.

22 Q. Now, you said a moment ago that Mr. Kvesic spoke to Tuta, and that

23 he said something to Tuta. Could you repeat what Mr. Kvesic said to Tuta

24 and what happened after that?

25 A. Branko Kvesic said to Tuta that I had been with them, and that

Page 3666

1 after that, I had turned my rifle on them. And then Tuta approached -- he

2 had a Motorola in his left hand and began to hit me on my forehead and

3 swear at my balija mother. And so three or four blows after that, when I

4 said that my mother was a Catholic, he got even angrier and struck me

5 several more times after that with the Motorola. And it had an aerial.

6 He drew a cross on my forehead and said he would sentence me to death to

7 serve as an example to others.

8 Q. Now, you said that you were hit by his Motorola. Where were you

9 hit?

10 A. On the left side on my forehead.

11 Q. How many times were you hit on that spot?

12 A. Well, some three or four times by the time that I said that my

13 mother was Catholic. And after that, another three or four times, not

14 more than that.

15 Q. Did you suffer any injuries from this hitting?

16 A. Well, I was perspiring so that my skin was slightly damaged, but I

17 didn't bleed or anything.

18 Q. Now, what did Tuta do after this incident?

19 A. You mean, when he sentenced me to death, or after that?

20 Q. After that, when he -- yes, after that. What did he do?

21 A. Right. Well, we lined up, and as was his custom, then he

22 approached Pobric. I don't know what he told him. But at that moment, he

23 suddenly hit him with the Motorola on his head, and he started bleeding.

24 Q. Now, sorry to interrupt you. You said that he approached another

25 person. Could you repeat the name of that person.

Page 3667

1 A. Pobric, P-O-B-R-I-C.

2 Q. Do you know his first name?

3 A. I don't.

4 Q. So tell me, what did you see of this beating?

5 A. As I was in the same line, all I could see was how he talked, how

6 he started to hit him, how blood oozed. And then Juka said, Don't. Let

7 him be. He'll come with me.

8 Q. So you said that this man named Pobric was bleeding after this

9 beating. Could you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, while this beating went on, were any of -- were there other

12 HVO soldiers present as well? And the persons you have been referring to,

13 the people you just referred to earlier, were they all present during this

14 beating?

15 A. They were present, those -- Juka's soldiers. And with them were

16 Slezak, if that's his name, and Dujimovic.

17 MR. BOS: Your Honours, I would like to go into private session

18 for some minutes, if that's possible.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, what's the reason for that?

20 MR. BOS: I'm going to ask the witness to identify some of the

21 persons who were also in this group of 30 to 35, who were in there, and I

22 think these names would be better mentioned in private session.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 3668

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.

16 MR. BOS:

17 Q. Now, Witness, after you saw Tuta beat Mr. Pobric, did a man arrive

18 by the name of Mladen Misic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What did this man do?

21 A. As he entered the factory -- whilst he was still in the yard, he

22 shouted, "Give me ten to shoot them. Oh, no, what ten? Give me all of

23 them to shoot them dead." Juka then said to him that he should capture

24 his own prisoners and do with them as he pleased, but that these prisoners

25 here were to be exchanged for his men in Zenica.

Page 3669

1 Q. And then what happened to you after this?

2 A. After that Dujmovic, Slezak, and two or three other soldiers who

3 were with Juka came to me and started to beat me with their hands and

4 rifle butts, and if I fell to the ground, they hit me with their rifle

5 butts until I stood up, and then they repeated three or four times.

6 Q. At the time that you were beaten by Juka, was Tuta still present?

7 A. Yes, he was.

8 Q. Now, did Juka at one moment interfere while you were being beaten

9 by his soldiers?

10 A. Yes, he did. He helped me to stand up, put me in the line, and

11 said, "Nobody will harm you again." And then he suddenly swung on his

12 feet and kicked me in the head. And after that, I was left alone.

13 Q. Now, when you arrived at the Tobacco Institute, was there also a

14 camera crew present?

15 A. Yes. To my left -- no, to my right there was a HTV crew with a

16 camera.

17 MR. BOS: Your Honours, I'd like to show the witness

18 Exhibit number 17, which is a video clip from the Croatian television, and

19 I think I would like to show this in private session since it will

20 identify the witness, and I think -- I don't know whether we should do it

21 in closed session or private session, but I -- it should definitely be at

22 least in private session.

23 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

25 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, Plaintiff's Exhibit 17 has

Page 3670

1 just been identified by my learned colleague as a video clip from a TV

2 station and that has never been delivered to the Defence. It has?

3 JUDGE LIU: I think all those documents, photos, and the

4 videotapes have been furnished to the Defence counsel.

5 MR. MEEK: Your Honours, we'll check, but my colleagues inform me

6 that this has not been given to us. Just to indicate for the record, Your

7 Honour, that we have looked at all the videotapes that we have received

8 from the Prosecutor, but we have not come across this one.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott. Do you have anything to say on this

10 issue?

11 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, our records will show that at the

12 very beginning of the trial when the binders were provided, all the

13 videotapes went over. There was a large -- there was a box of videotapes,

14 and I'm confident -- I could be wrong without having an opportunity to

15 clarify this, but as I stand here, I'm confident that all those videotapes

16 were turned over. Now, we'll make inquiries into our records to verify

17 that. That's all I can say it at this point. I would fully expect that

18 it was turned over some time ago.

19 In fact, it was probably even before the trial -- it was before

20 the trial started because it was back during the deposition proceedings,

21 because all those binders -- as the Registry will remember, binder one was

22 used during the depositions and all those videotapes were turned over back

23 then. So this was at the end of the July.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I confirm that we

Page 3671

1 received the last batch of videotapes during the deposition, because the

2 Defence requested those clips as we were interested in them, and we went

3 through all of them, and in that box with the videotapes, I did not find a

4 single one. Perhaps there are several different recordings, but if I

5 understood my learned friend, an HTV recording, no, we did not get that

6 tape. Perhaps it's a mistake. I'm not accusing anyone, but we did not

7 see it amongst the evidence that we have, because we absolutely went

8 through all the videotapes.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, so far as I remember that this Trial Chamber

10 made a decision at the meeting that those maps, photos, and videotapes

11 from P1 to P53,are admitted and there were no objections from the Defence.

12 counsel If you are not sure about this particular tape, I hope you could

13 allow us to have it shown in this courtroom, and you have your right to

14 make any objections that may come across this issue in the tendering of

15 this videotape.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, we are

17 talking about two types of evidence that we are getting from our learned

18 friends, and we never managed to go through them, because on Sunday we

19 were given two binders and they announced eight more. We simply have no

20 time to go through all of them. And this applies to 17 binders that were

21 received on Friday. And the videotapes were given to us during the

22 depositions. And I repeat, the Defence did go through all these

23 videotapes and there were no HTV tapes about Vranica. That is all we are

24 saying. I think we simply should have been shown it so that we could know

25 what it is about.

Page 3672

1 I'm not saying that -- my learned friends perhaps think that they

2 gave them to us, because it's a huge amount of evidence. That is

3 something that I said right at the beginning of the case in those 17

4 binders. Your Honours, we've just finished going through those documents

5 and translating them. We had to do it by ourselves in spite of all this

6 effort that we have to put in here, and I'm constantly fearful that I

7 might -- that I might damage my client. I may have perhaps done damage to

8 my client, because when I didn't object to the maps, I said I wouldn't

9 object to maps and photographs and the videotapes that I managed to see,

10 but this does not go for those that I never saw. Thank you very much.

11 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well --

13 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, if I may for a moment, what I wanted to

14 say is that I don't think we should be having this broader discussion now

15 with the witness. We have a witness here. If Mr. Krsnik wants to debate

16 documents, we can do that whenever the Trial Chamber chooses to schedule

17 that.

18 And the only other point that I'm going to make is that in binder

19 number one, as for Exhibit number 17, surrogate sheet - I've just taken it

20 out of our binder. It's the same in every binder - it says "Video of

21 Mostar, Video clip of 9 May 1993, Vranica attack and captured ABiH

22 soldiers."

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

24 MR. KRSNIK: Your Honours, Exhibit 17 says "Reserved number," if I

25 remember correctly or my learned friend will correct me if I am wrong. It

Page 3673

1 says "Reserved number," but there is no tape. That is so, Your Honours.

2 It says "Reserved number," but we did not get the tape.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, after consultations amongst the Judges, we have

5 decided that to the fairness of Defence counsel, we believe that they are

6 entitled to watch it. We don't care what is the reason for that, why you

7 have not received it or have not seen it, but I will give you a chance to

8 watch it for five minutes. So this Chamber will adjourn until five

9 minutes later.

10 MR. BOS: Very well, Your Honour.

11 --- Break taken at 3.24 p.m.

12 [Closed session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

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Page 3674












12 Pages 3674 to 3677 – redacted – closed session.














Page 3678

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We are now in open session.

4 MR. BOS:

5 Q. Now, Witness AA, where were you taken next after the Tobacco

6 Institute?

7 A. After the Tobacco Institute, they brought a bus. They boarded us

8 and took us to Listica, in front of the civilian MUP.

9 MR. BOS: I'd like the witness to be shown Exhibit 26.4, please.

10 Q. Do you recognise this photograph, Witness AA?

11 A. Yes. That is the civilian MUP building in front of which they

12 brought us.

13 Q. So where were you put? You said you were put in front of the

14 building. Where was this? Can you indicate that with a ...

15 A. Approximately here where this vehicle is and a bit to the right.

16 Let's say in front of this second set of barred windows.

17 Q. And was this the whole group who was also taken to the Tobacco

18 Institute were taken to the MUP station?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, what happened when you were lined up in front of the MUP

21 station?

22 Witness AA, you don't have to be that close to the microphone. If

23 you keep about half a metre distance, that's fine.

24 A. We were met there by the regular police. There were two or three

25 of Juka's men, and in front of the MUP building there was -- I believe at

Page 3679

1 that time he was something, either Tuta's deputy or he was leading one of

2 Tuta's units. I cannot remember his name, but I can describe him. He was

3 shortish, dark, and he was wearing a Spitfire jacket.

4 Q. And what did this man do?

5 A. The person whose name I told you I didn't know, and he had some

6 rank, and he either led a unit or was a deputy. He was close to Tuta. He

7 approached Meho Zilic - Meho, first name, Zilic, last name, Z-I-L-I-C -

8 and he told he was a member of Kosen [phoen]. He was always killing

9 Croats, and he cursed him, that he had always hated Croats, and then he

10 hit him with the handle of his pistol and knocked out his two teeth.

11 Then he asked whether anybody had taken part in the liberation of

12 the left bank of Mostar. I raised my hand. He asked me whether I was on

13 Mount Hum. I told him that the Mount Hum had nothing to do with the

14 liberation of the city of Mostar, and then he hit me several times.

15 Then they took us to the police building. All our personal

16 effects were taken away from us, and they took us down to the solitaries.

17 MR. BOS: I'd like the witness to be now shown Exhibit 26.7 and

18 26.8.

19 Q. Witness, you said that you were taken down to the basement of the

20 MUP station. Were you then put in a cell, and could you please see if you

21 recognise the photograph which has been put on the ELMO?

22 A. Yes. That was the cell to which they took us.

23 Q. And with how many people were you put in this cell?

24 A. About 20 men.

25 Q. Is it correct that there was another cell next to this one?

Page 3680

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. BOS: And show the other exhibit.

3 Q. This the other cell?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. We can see some squares in the wall. What were those squares?

6 A. These were blocks that were placed there. They served for airing,

7 for ventilation.

8 MR. BOS: If we can put the other photograph on there again.

9 Q. This one only has one block, and this was the cell you were in?

10 A. I was in this cell, but I have to say that this up there did not

11 exist, these blocks.

12 Q. Now, what happened during that evening when you were taken into

13 the cell?

14 A. After a certain period of time, Romeo Blazevic, B-L-A-Z-E-V-I-C,

15 and Ernest Takac, T-A-K-A-C, came into the cell.

16 Q. Did you know these persons?

17 A. I had not known Ernest Takac, and I did know Romeo.

18 Q. And who do you believe -- what did you know from Romeo Blazevic?

19 A. I knew that he did not have an impeccable record. He was a

20 small-time hood, thief, and he had a cafe. I know that both of them were

21 Stela's men. They were in Stela's unit.

22 Q. How do you know that they were both in Stela's unit?

23 A. Everybody in Mostar knew about it. It wasn't any special

24 knowledge. I don't know how to explain it to you.

25 Q. Now, what happened when Romeo Blazevic and Ernest Takac entered

Page 3681

1 the cell?

2 A. Romeo Blazevic held a koblac in one hand, and Ernest Takac walked

3 in with a hand grenade.

4 Q. You said in his hand he had a koblac. What kind of instrument is

5 that? Can you describe that?

6 A. It was a stick. And at its top, it has a metal ball. And that

7 ball is filled with lead.

8 Q. So what happened when -- what happened next?

9 A. Romeo approached me. First he hit a man who was next to the

10 wall. He approached me and accused me of having blown up his cafe and

11 wanted to hit me with this koblac. I tried to protect myself several

12 times. He pulled out a pistol, and he said that if I was to raise my hand

13 again, that he would shoot me. I did not obey him, and I kept backing

14 up. Then I tripped over the platform. Then he approached -- I fell, and

15 then he approached me and hit me over the head with his pistol handle.

16 And he broke my skin, and my head was full of blood. And then he did not

17 touch me after that any more. But I received no medical treatment.

18 Q. Did he only hit you with the pistol or did he also hit you with

19 the koblac?

20 A. He hit me with the koblac as I was protecting myself; but after I

21 had fallen, then he hit me with the pistol handle on my right side.

22 Q. You said that Ernest Takac was there as well? What did Ernest

23 Takac do at the time that you were beaten by Romeo?

24 A. He stood at the door, and he said, Come on, let's go. I will just

25 toss in the hand grenade.

Page 3682

1 Q. Now, after you were detained in the MUP station, were you -- after

2 a few days, were you taken out to do forced labour and where were you

3 taken to?

4 A. Three or four days later, five of six or us were called out of the

5 cells. We were told that -- to board a truck and that we were going to be

6 exchanged.

7 Q. Where were you taken to?

8 A. And then on the way, they said that they were kidding, and that we

9 were being taken to work on Tuta's pool.

10 MR. BOS: Can the witness be shown Exhibit 26.10, please.

11 Q. Now, Witness, do you recognise what's depicted on this photograph?

12 A. Yes. That's the pool where I worked.

13 Q. Now, you referred to it as Tuta's pool. Why do you refer to it as

14 Tuta's pool?

15 A. I did not say that. They told us that we were going to work on

16 Tuta's pool. The home guards who led me there said that.

17 Q. What did you have to do when you were taken there?

18 A. I guess the pool had not been used for years, and there were rocks

19 and there was a lot of weed around it. There was earth at the bottom of

20 it, so we had to clean it up.

21 Q. How many days did you work at this pool?

22 A. I did not work more than three or four days on this pool.

23 Q. What happened on the second day that you were working there?

24 A. The second or the third day -- I am not sure one which of those

25 two -- here, on the far end, this is where we were placing rubbish. And

Page 3683

1 then Tuta came to the pool across this bridge. Everybody laughed. And I

2 know he had condemned me to death, so I was scared.

3 Q. Now, did you have a clear view of Tuta? Because you said you were

4 there in the corner, and I can see all these trees over there. But you

5 were able to see Tuta? You were able to identify him?

6 A. You did not -- you did not need to see Tuta. As he stepped off

7 and on to the bridge, everybody started clapping and cheering him.

8 Q. What did you do when you found out that Tuta was at the pool?

9 A. When he arrived at the pool, I had a wheelbarrow. I hid with it

10 behind, and I covered myself with it. And they started shooting, but they

11 were shooting -- they were not aiming at anything.

12 Q. Did Tuta talk with any of the prisoners who were working there?

13 A. I did not see that.

14 Q. Now, do you recall another incident which happened at the pool the

15 day after or on any other day?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us about this.

18 A. I sat here at the pool, and Taso was to the left of me. And a man

19 saw me. And when he saw me, he started hurriedly in my direction. And I

20 said, I'm in trouble now. And at that point, this man approached me and

21 kicked me in the chest.

22 Q. Do you know who this man was?

23 A. I don't know his name, but I used to see him. He was the driver

24 for the Minister of Social Affairs at the HZ HB.

25 Q. What did this man do to you?

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Page 3685

1 A. As soon as he crossed that bridge, he approached me and just

2 kicked me without saying anything.

3 Q. You said you were sitting on the edge of the pool. Were you with

4 your back to the pool or with your face towards the pool?

5 A. I had my back to the pool.

6 Q. What happened after he kicked you?

7 A. After he kicked me, I fell. As I had my back to the pool, I hit

8 my head against the concrete. He jumped into the pool after me to

9 continue beating me. I defended myself. I ran, and I ran to this corner

10 here so I could protect myself better there.

11 Q. And what happened then?

12 A. Because I defended myself, he pulled out a pistol and wanted to

13 kill me. At that moment, a man called Jablanica appeared. He jumped into

14 the pool and grabbed him by the hand in which he was holding the pistol

15 and chased him away. Did he not allow him to touch me.

16 Q. After this incident, did you -- as a result of this incident, did

17 you no longer have to work at the pool?

18 A. After that incident, I in longer worked at the pool.

19 MR. BOS: I think, Your Honours, I can leave it here.

20 JUDGE LIU: We will adjourn until 9.30 tomorrow morning.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.03 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 11th day

23 of October, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.