Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3866

 1                          Tuesday, 16 October 2001

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 10.07 a.m.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Call the case, Madam Registrar.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 8    IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  We are very sorry about the delay this morning,

10    because we don't have much time to lose for this case.  So today we might

11    sit a little bit longer to make up the 30 minutes we lost.

12            Mr. Krsnik, cross-examination, please.

13            MR. KRSNIK:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14                          WITNESS: FALK SIMANG [Resumed]

15                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                          Cross-examination by Mr. Krsnik: [Continued]

17       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

18       A.   Morning.

19       Q.   Tell me, Witness, have you talked to someone since yesterday?

20       A.   No, I haven't.

21       Q.   May I remind you, yesterday we stopped when you mentioned a bunker

22    that was off the road between Jablanica and Konjic.  Do you remember

23    that?

24       A.   Yes, I do.

25       Q.   That was the bunker where Cikota lost his life, right?

Page 3867

 1       A.   Correct.

 2       Q.   You said yesterday that you were about ten metres away, or rather,

 3    you were there, you were present?

 4       A.   I was in the vicinity, but I have not mentioned ten metres.

 5       Q.   Very well.  You were in the vicinity.  Can you give me the name of

 6    at least one or two soldiers who were with you?

 7       A.   We talked about it yesterday.  I cannot give you any further

 8    names.  The names of the persons I have been constantly in contact with, I

 9    have mentioned.  It was two -- three or four people.

10       Q.   Yesterday, you also talked about the mosque, in Doljani, of

11    course.

12       A.   Correct.

13       Q.   And you said that explosive had been placed there, but you did not

14    see it activated.

15       A.   Correct.

16       Q.   Again, you do not know the names of the soldiers who placed this

17    explosive, right?

18       A.   Correct.

19       Q.   Tell me, please, you said that there was a house that was your

20    base, and how far away is that mosque and which way is it from that house,

21    north, south, east, west?

22       A.   I wouldn't be in a position to tell you now.

23       Q.   All right.  I'll try to show you a picture, and then perhaps you

24    will be able to show us the direction.

25            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the Registrar if

Page 3868

 1    the witness could be shown Exhibit 8.9, actually, where he put in a few

 2    things for the Prosecutor.  Also, could I kindly ask you to put the ELMO

 3    down a little bit so that I can see the witness better?  Later, rather,

 4    when we finish with this particular bit.

 5       Q.   Yesterday, remember you were putting these dots in, one, two,

 6    three.

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   For point 2, you said yesterday that that was where the imprisoned

 9    soldiers were.  Is that right?

10       A.   This little wooden shed, or what?

11       Q.   Yes, yes.  And you marked that with a number "2," right, on this

12    particular picture?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Now, I'm going to show you another picture.

15            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher for his

16    assistance.  That is Prosecution Exhibit 8.10.

17       Q.   Can you see this picture now from a different angle?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Could you please clarify this for me:  Where you said that there

20    was a wooden shed, that is where there is a brook and a bridge; isn't is

21    that right?

22       A.   Well, approximately there where the car is standing now.  There

23    used to be this wooden thing, as far as I can remember.

24            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I do apologise to the usher, but

25    could you please put the picture that was previously on the ELMO back on

Page 3869

 1    the ELMO again, please; 8.9, that is.

 2       Q.   Can you see a car now in this picture, and number 2?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   Well, if you look from number 2 towards the house, you can see a

 5    blue thing there, and the blue thing is a car, if you want to take the

 6    photograph in your hands and take a good look at it.

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Why didn't you mark that position immediately, then?  You said

 9    precisely that the wooden shed was here where the car is.  Why didn't you

10    mark it there immediately?  Why did you mark it where number 2 is?

11       A.   Well, I said approximately.  Said approximately.

12       Q.   Approximately.  Very well.

13            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I am going to ask the usher to show

14    the witness 8.8, Prosecution Exhibit 8.8.

15       Q.   Can you see where the mosque is in this picture, or the direction

16    in which it was, up or down, left or right?

17       A.   Right.  On the right-hand side behind this direction.

18       Q.   Would you please be so kind as to -- oh, this is a Prosecution

19    Exhibit.

20            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, can we actually ask

21    the witness to mark things on this photograph as well?

22            [In English] Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23       Q.   [Interpretation] Would you please be so kind as to take a marker,

24    and could you please mark an arrow from the house in the direction which

25    you said the mosque was.

Page 3870

 1       A.   [Marks]

 2       Q.   Thank you very much.  So if we look at this direction, how far

 3    away was it from this particular building?

 4       A.   I couldn't tell you.  I couldn't give you this distance in

 5    metres.  I really don't know.  I just wanted to bear you in mind that it's

 6    eight years since then.

 7       Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Witness, do you remember how many

 8    statements you gave?  I asked you that yesterday already, but I would like

 9    to have it repeated today.  How many statements did you give to the

10    investigators and prosecutors of this Tribunal?

11       A.   I don't know.

12       Q.   Did you give one statement or several?

13            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Stringer?

14            MR. STRINGER:  I apologise for interrupting, Mr. President.  As

15    Mr. Krsnik has just conceded, this question was asked and answered

16    yesterday by the witness, and on that basis I would object.

17            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Mr. Krsnik, is this necessary for you to ask

18    this question again?  Because we had it yesterday.  Thank you.

19            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  I can skip it, but

20    we have this communication problem because the witness finds it hard to

21    remember things.

22       Q.   Do you remember the statement that you gave on the 16th and 17th

23    of April 1997?

24       A.   Well, I think that they were with me, but how shall I know what I

25    have said on this particular two days?

Page 3871

 1       Q.   I'll remind you.  If you recall, Susan Somers was present that

 2    day.  It is not customary for a trial attorney from The Hague to come to

 3    prison.  Do you remember now?

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Stringer?

 5            MR. STRINGER:  I have two things to say, Mr. President.  First,

 6    counsel doesn't know whether it's customary or not for counsel or anyone

 7    else to go see witnesses, and so I think that he's not in a position to

 8    make or to put such a statement to the witness.  Secondly, I'd ask that if

 9    he intends to ask the witness about a statement that the witness gave, the

10    witness ought to be given an opportunity to at least look at the statement

11    to see which statement he's being asked about, to see whether he

12    recognises the statement.  Thank you.

13            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Krsnik, you may skip this question, and if

14    you will use this statement, it's better to show this statement to

15    the witness.

16            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] With pleasure, Your Honour, but

17    please may I first respond to my learned friend?  Actually, I asked

18    whether Susan Somers was present for a very specific reason and for

19    relevant reasons.  I shall shed more light on this through my following

20    questions, because the witness had an ongoing correspondence with her, but

21    we will get to that too.

22            I will be very glad to make a statement, and I would be very glad

23    to give this witness his statement, but I -- this witness speaks German,

24    and I haven't got a German version.  I don't have a Croatian version

25    either, so that's why I thought that I should read parts of his statement

Page 3872












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Page 3873

 1    to him, some of the things he stated there on that particular day to The

 2    Hague investigators and the Prosecutor too.  But I have the Croatian

 3    version.  It's not going to take very long.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  You may proceed, so long as it's not that long.

 5            Yes, Mr. Stringer?

 6            MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, Mr. President, maybe I misunderstood.

 7    It was my impression that the Trial Chamber had decided that the witness

 8    would be shown the statement.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Well, yes, I understand that, but the counsel said

10    that he does not have the other versions.  Maybe -- do you have the

11    English version of the statement?

12            MR. STRINGER:  There is no German version of the statement, Your

13    Honour.  The original language that this statement was taken in is the

14    English language with the assistance of the German interpreter, so the

15    statement which would bear the signature of the witness is the English

16    version.  It's my belief that, as well, a B/C/S version was disclosed to

17    the Defence, as was the case with all the other witness statements in this

18    case.

19            JUDGE LIU:  My question is that -- do you have the English version

20    at your hand?

21            MR. STRINGER:  Yes, I do.  I have a clean copy of it, in fact.

22            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we also have the English

23    version, but the witness does not speak English.

24            JUDGE LIU:  Well, we could give it to the witness and to the

25    interpreter.  At least the witness could see his signature or if there

Page 3874

 1    is --

 2            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I can provide to the usher a clean

 3    copy of the statement of April 1997.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, please.

 5            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   Let me put another question to you before that:  Did you have some

 7    kind of a base in Doljani?  Did you build a kind of a base there?

 8       A.   I don't know anything of a construction that we would have

 9    constructed, or I would have constructed.

10       Q.   Convicts Battalion in Doljani, did you build a base there?

11       A.   Nothing is known to me that I or that we would have built

12    something.

13       Q.   The houses that you pointed out on these photographs, you said

14    that they were your base.

15       A.   Correct.

16            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Madam Interpreter, could you please

17    look at the witness statement.  06 are the last two numbers on the top of

18    the page.  The number starts with 700, and then you will see 7006.  These

19    are the OTP numbers.

20            THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry, I don't see --

21            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] At the top of the page, in the

22    middle.  On the top of the page.  And now, just go on until you get to the

23    page where the last two numbers are "06."

24            THE INTERPRETER:  These pages are numbered 11 through 21.

25            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] There is a difference between the

Page 3875

 1    English and the Serbo-Croatian version.  At the top of the page, you have

 2    a number.  Would you please look at that.  Find the page with the last two

 3    digits 06.  You started from 700.  Then it comes 701, 702, and we need

 4    706.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  You should check whether those are the same documents

 6    or not.  I have some doubts about it.

 7            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I see.  The English version has

 8    different numbering.

 9            MR. STRINGER:  Counsel, I believe, is referring to what we call an

10    ERN number, which is sort of a number that goes on to every piece of paper

11    in the Office of the Prosecutor for reference purposes.  When a document

12    is translated, the translation is given a new ERN number, so the ERN

13    number of the English version will not be the same as the ERN number for

14    the B/C/S version.  But I can inform Mr. Krsnik and also the Trial Chamber

15    that I believe all versions will have a simple page number at the bottom

16    which might assist in directing the witness.

17            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, my learned friend.

18            Yes, I've found it, and now I realise it's page 7.

19       Q.   So the first, second, third, fourth passage beginning the words

20    "At the outset, it was a regular military operation ..."  Did you find

21    that?  "A soldier was hit in the head when we were about to attack

22    bunkers."  "Hit in the head when we were about to attack bunkers."  Then

23    the next sentence:  "We returned to the base which we had built in

24    Doljani."

25            Will you now please turn the page.  First, second, third, fourth

Page 3876

 1    passage, and look for the text, then:  "The Muslim people" -- "The

 2    Muslims, and only the Muslims, were expelled beyond the village limits.

 3    Those were people from the mosque -- those were the people from the mosque

 4    and one woman who was still in her house.  Then they blew up the mosque.

 5    The mosque was near our headquarters in Doljani, and Tuta was present

 6    during this action."

 7            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Now, Madam Interpreter, could we go

 8    back to the previous page, please.  Will you now read one, two, three of

 9    the passages, and I will try to sum it up.  It describes the event when

10    the prisoners arrived.

11       Q.   You described it to us, sir, the event with the prisoners.  Do you

12    remember that?  Except that there is a big difference.

13            Let's go back again to the next page, page number 8.  You will

14    find a sentence which reads, second passage from the bottom -- there is

15    one sentence there, last sentence where you describe everything that

16    happened in Doljani with the prisoners, the mosque, and the rest.  And

17    then you say:  "After that, we went back to Siroki Brijeg to bury

18    Cikota."  And nowhere else do you mention in this statement that you

19    returned after Cikota's funeral, and that it was then that the incident

20    with the prisoners that you described yesterday happened.

21            So my question is:  Were you telling the truth when you described

22    this incident?

23       A.   I can say the following on that:  And I always told the

24    investigators -- it may happen that I get mixed up in -- with one

25    operation or another operation, because it is not possible for me to

Page 3877

 1    remember exactly the dates or events - I'm sorry - and I constantly

 2    repeated it to the investigating bodies.  It may happen time and again

 3    that I get mixed up, and I cannot -- and I just cannot remember dates

 4    exactly.  And you can also ask the investigators that I constantly

 5    reminded them of this fact or deficiency of mine.

 6       Q.   Witness, which of your statements is true?  Yesterday, you said

 7    that you went for an operation in Doljani, Cikota was killed, you cut the

 8    action short, and two or three days later -- two or three days later, you

 9    came back to avenge Cikota's death, and then this scene with prisoners

10    happened that you described to us.  In this statement -- in your statement

11    which you gave to the investigators of -- from The Hague, you say -- you

12    give a completely different version.  So I'm asking you which one of them

13    is true, the one that you told yesterday to the Court or the one that you

14    gave to the investigators?

15       A.   We were in Doljani twice or three times.  After Cikota's death, we

16    returned back to Siroki Brijeg.

17       Q.   So what you say in this statement is not true?

18       A.   It may happen that things have been forgotten or somehow mixed

19    up.  I do not know.  I cannot tell you.

20            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Now, could I have the English version

21    of the 28th of October, 1998?

22       Q.   Mr. Simang, this statement was read out to you, you understood it,

23    and you confirmed its authenticity with your signature.  Now, I will show

24    you the statement which you gave on the 28th of October, 1998, in the

25    presence of Jan Van Hecke, Vassily Poriouvaev, and Harald Reiser, who is

Page 3878

 1    your lawyer.  Will you please turn to page 4?  One, two, three -- the

 2    third passage:  "The cleansing of Doljani 1993 was performed under Tuta's

 3    command."  Did you find that?

 4       A.   I did.

 5       Q.   Now, you can read, and Madam Interpreter will help you.  You

 6    describe here how you entered Doljani.  Is that correct, that you drove in

 7    in cars -- no, sorry, that you met in Doljani, that you split into groups

 8    of five or six men each?

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  Excuse me, Your Honour, which passage should I

10    translate?

11            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I merely wanted to quickly go through

12    it.  It starts with the sentence:  "The cleansing of Doljani in April

13    1993."

14            Madam Interpreter, I'm sorry, did we reach the place "A group of

15    15 soldiers was ordered to capture a bunker at the end of Doljani in the

16    direction of Konjic-Jablanica"?

17            Then the next sentence after that is:  "There, Cikota died."  And

18    now the next passage -- and I'll read it aloud and you can check it with

19    me:  "There was a transport of Muslim prisoners of war from Doljani.  The

20    International Committee of the Red Cross turned up all of a sudden and

21    stayed for ten minutes.  Seven prisoners, and they were prisoners of war,

22    were transported to Ljubuski in a Volkswagen van, escorted by soldiers."

23            Now, the next sentence:  "Before this transport, these prisoners

24    were interrogated by Tuta and Andabak in a wooden cabin.  We heard them

25    cry out and scream during the interrogation, and we also heard the sound

Page 3879

 1    of blows.  I also heard Tuta and Andabak yelling.  Some of the prisoners

 2    were bleeding when they came out of the cabin.  I do not remember any of

 3    the prisoners with firearm injuries."

 4       Q.   Witness, this is the third version.  There is no execution by

 5    firing squad in this version.  These prisoners, the same number, are taken

 6    to Ljubuski.  Cikota was killed here in -- during the action.  You did not

 7    return at all.  And yesterday, you said that UNPROFOR arrived; here you

 8    say the International Committee of the Red Cross.  You also confirmed the

 9    statement and confirmed its veracity with your signature.  So now we have

10    the third account of all these events.  Is the statement correct?

11       A.   It is correct, and I can only repeat:  Please do not put each word

12    at its face value, because I -- what is written here is correct, but I

13    cannot give you all the details in the -- in its sequence as they happened

14    when they -- in those days.

15       Q.   Witness, we are talking about one incident and one incident only.

16    I am merely drawing your attention to the statements that you made before

17    this Honourable Court and third statement that you gave to the

18    investigators and prosecutors of the Tribunal.  My question to you is:

19    Are all these statements truthful?  Because you confirm their veracity

20    with your signature.

21       A.   The events are correct, but we were twice or three times at

22    Doljani, as I mentioned yesterday.

23       Q.   Very well.  Now, do you remember the statement that you gave to

24    the German police on the 9th of October, 1995?

25       A.   I'm sorry.  I could not tell when and what I should have said

Page 3880












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Page 3881

 1    there, because we are getting even back into earlier days.

 2       Q.   Witness, I do not have that statement in English, but I shall be

 3    very brief, because I intend to tender this statement of yours into

 4    evidence.  Oh, yes, we do have it in English.

 5       A.   I would like to mention - I hope you also put it in as evidence -

 6    that I have withdrawn all statements from the German authorities.  I hope

 7    you also have this in your records.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Stringer.

 9            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, if it would assist the interpreter,

10    I have that statement from the German proceedings which is in the German

11    language, which I can offer to either counsel or the interpreter, if it

12    would assist.

13            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, you may furnish this to the interpreter.

14            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

15       Q.   Will you please look at page 2.  Here, you offer a sixth version

16    of the same event.  But read it, first.  I'll wait until you read it.

17       A.   What do you want me to find?

18       Q.   To read the second page.  You describe there how you arrived in

19    Doljani and how you started for the bunkers.

20       A.   I can't see anything here on page 2 --

21       Q.   I meant -- or in German.  Witness, will you please concentrate.

22    German version; that is your mother tongue.  And it says:  "Everybody

23    fired including myself"?

24       A.   I'm sorry, on this second page, there is -- everything is written

25    about this lady Elsa from South Africa.

Page 3882

 1            JUDGE LIU:  Well, maybe that's a different version.

 2       A.   It may well be.  At least there's nothing written about Doljani,

 3    what I have got here.

 4            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   Please, please.  I'm sorry.  Will you please find the text in

 6    German which begins with the words "Our unit had to retreat, as this was

 7    its responsibility.  We took up our position during the night.  And we

 8    started our action at about 0600.  There were four bunkers that we were to

 9    take."

10            THE INTERPRETER:  May I help as an interpreter?  It's page 3 on

11    this paper of the 12th of October, 1995.  Page 3, [German spoken], it

12    starts.

13            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14            THE INTERPRETER:  That's the one.

15       A.   What I have got here is a statement made on the 5th of August,

16    1994.

17            JUDGE LIU:  Well, maybe the usher will check the different

18    versions, because here we are talking about a statement made on the 9th of

19    October, 1995.

20            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

21       A.   Yeah.  That's the Memmingen Court, on the 12th of October, 1995.

22    That's true, but the statement itself was made on the 5th of August,

23    1994.  What we have got as 12th of October, 1995, is the post stamp.

24            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Stringer, it seems to me there is great

25    confusion here.  Maybe someone could clear it up for us.  Because we don't

Page 3883

 1    have all those statements at our hands, we cannot distinguish which one is

 2    which.

 3            MR. STRINGER:  If I can inform counsel, if he turns to the top,

 4    page 2 of the English translation, the top of page 2 states:  "Date of

 5    interview, 5th of August, 1994."  The cover sheet appearing -- which is

 6    page 1 -- does contain the date of October 1995, but if counsel examined

 7    the document more closely, he would find the date of interview being, as

 8    indicated, 5th of August, 1994.

 9            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the interpreters have

10    clarified it all and said so.  The important thing for me is to find this

11    passage, which does exist in this statement.

12       Q.   Does this passage exist?

13       A.   That means -- so our unit had to move out; is that what you mean?

14       Q.   I have been asking you from the beginning to read the passage

15    which begins with that sentence, and the whole page.  And after that, I

16    will ask you questions.  This is the fourth time I'm asking you to do

17    that.

18       A.  "Our unit had to move out" --

19       Q.   Excuse me.  Please, sir, I wanted you to read it to yourself so

20    that we don't waste any time.  After that, I'll ask a question.  If you

21    want to read it aloud, then you can do that.  I couldn't care less.  I'm

22    only having in mind the Honourable Court.

23            Have you finished reading it?

24       A.   Yes, I did.

25       Q.   Briefly, you say that it happened in May 1993, that you first took

Page 3884

 1    the bunkers.  And then two weeks later, you had to make an assault on two

 2    more bunkers, and about 30 men stayed behind in the village, and I was one

 3    of them.  So you did not leave the village?

 4            Then seven or eight Muslims were captured.  And after the capture

 5    of those Muslims, you were informed by radio that Cikota had been killed.

 6    You were not with him at all.

 7            And on page 4, you end by saying, page 4, the first sentence:  "We

 8    returned.  As is usual when the commander dies, then the operation is

 9    discontinued and the unit goes back to bury him."

10            And did you speak the truth on that occasion when you spoke to the

11    German police?

12       A.   I mentioned that all my statements which I have made in Germany

13    with the police, that they were officially withdrawn in court.

14       Q.   So if the statement was withdrawn and it is no longer valid -- if

15    the statement was withdrawn, as the witness says, does it mean that it is

16    no longer valid?

17       A.   Correct.  That's how it is.

18       Q.   So it doesn't matter what it says here and what you said here?

19       A.   My statement with the police have been completely withdrawn and

20    have been declared null and void.

21       Q.   And my question to you is:  Is it truthful or did you lie, but to

22    the German police, on that particular occasion?

23       A.   It may well be that I did not say everything there or that I

24    concealed some facts and did not make a statement on other aspects.

25       Q.   But did you speak the truth?  Excuse me, this is the last time I'm

Page 3885

 1    asking you that.

 2       A.   No, not with the police on several occasions, I did not.

 3       Q.   So you did not tell the truth to the police?

 4       A.   Correct.  That's what I just said.

 5       Q.   Very well.  Now tell me, on page 4 of that same statement, did you

 6    lie again when you said -- and you are describing the event in front of

 7    the ministry, remember that, the ministry in Mostar that you went with

 8    prisoners.  And that is the passage one, two, three, fourth?  Read it

 9    first.

10       A.   I did not state the truth in some matters.  I stated the truth in

11    other matters.  And this is why I withdrew my statement.  And I'm going to

12    repeat it now:  You may read any of these sentences.  Whatever you read

13    out, I just comment on that that I have withdrawn completely my statement

14    to the police.  Sorry to say that.

15       Q.   Witness, with all due respect to your comments, but I should like

16    to verify one sentence.  Will you please read it and see if you can

17    confirm it?  And it begins with the words "Tuta and Andabak came to

18    interrogate the prisoners."  The first, second, third, fourth passage.  So

19    the event in front of the Ministry of Defence in Mostar, then you go on:

20    "Maximilian (surname, Resch) and I and another Croat called Branko stood

21    outside by our truck with the Bofors."  Have you found that?  Read it.

22       A.   No, not yet.  Just hang on.

23       Q.   Page 4.  And then it says that you, Maximilian, and Branko were

24    standing there.  Have you found it?  "Next to our truck with the Bofors.

25    About 300 metres away."  And that's the end of the sentence.  Have you

Page 3886

 1    found that?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   "We could not hear exactly what they were saying.  Suddenly Tuta

 4    screamed at a prisoner, pulled out a pistol, held it to his head and

 5    pulled the trigger," et cetera.

 6            And then the next sentence:  "The others were taken away.  I do

 7    not know where."  "The others" refers to the prisoners?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   "Tuta and Andabak again drove off."

10            And then you continue by saying:  "In clarification, I state that

11    Ivan Andabak also shot a prisoner dead in the head."  And then you

12    continue:  "About an hour later we came with the other Croats who were

13    standing around the Muslims talking.  We asked them what was going on, and

14    they said that the two dead men were wearing army shoes."

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   So three things:  Before this Court, you said that you -- I mean

17    when this event in front of the ministry occurred, that you were in the

18    immediate vicinity.  Here you say that you were 300 metres away.  Here you

19    do not speak about the events that you described before this Court at

20    all.  You say that Tuta and Andabak left, and that you found out about all

21    of this an hour later when you returned and when you talked to the

22    soldiers.  Here you say that they had army shoes, and then you also said

23    before this Court that they had the imprint of a shell on their hands.

24            Is that not true, then, what you said to the German police?

25       A.   I stated several times it may well be that I did not state

Page 3887












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Page 3888

 1    everything -- did not say everything completely to the police and maybe

 2    that I also was mixed up.  And by the way, the police did not ask me

 3    exactly for certain events.  I just kept on rambling and talking and

 4    talking to the police.  That's how it was.

 5       Q.   Well, yesterday you talked and talked and talked, and I'm just

 6    checking about all these things that you talked about and what is true out

 7    of all the things that you have been talking about.  Tell me, please, you

 8    have this statement of the 16th and 17th of April, 1997, the one that you

 9    gave to Jan Van Hecke, and Susan Somers was present as well.

10            Please turn to page 6.  This is paragraph 3, and it says:  "One

11    way or the other, there were some Muslims left in a big high school in

12    West Mostar.  Two days later, we got into Mostar again.  We imprisoned 14

13    Muslims.  Tuta came together with Andabak."  You always said "Anderbag."

14    And he personally questioned these 14 persons.  And then you described the

15    event that occurred in front of the Ministry of Defence in Mostar.

16            Yesterday, I asked you --

17            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  I'll try to be a bit

18    slower.  I do apologise to the lady interpreter.  And then in this section

19    that we've just read out, he describes the event that we referred to a few

20    minutes ago, the one in front of the Ministry.  If you want, you can read

21    it, and I'll wait.  We've just started with that.  It's just underneath

22    the section that I just read out, so if you would just proceed, please.

23            THE INTERPRETER:  The paragraph here in my version says something

24    else than counsel said, and I just can't find it.  If you would give me

25    one minute to find it, please.

Page 3889

 1            JUDGE LIU:  Okay.

 2            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] It's on page number 6, right up at

 3    the start.  It was -- it's paragraph 2.  It starts with the sentence

 4    "There was blood coming from the left ear ..."

 5            If I understood you correctly in German, I think that we have read

 6    out as much as I actually wanted us to read.

 7       Q.   Yesterday, I asked you whether you remember the names of the

 8    persons who were present during this incident before the Ministry of

 9    Defence.  Here, you say:  "Among the other members of our unit who were

10    present there, there were Vlado, Drago, Anderbag, Tuta, Cikota, Cikota's

11    brother Bruno, Jablanica, Ivan [Tuta's driver], Zdenko."

12            Here you say in the next sentence:  "I was, at the moment when

13    Tuta shot at the man, about 6 metres away from Tuta."

14            Now, tell me, is this correct or is it incorrect?  Did you stay to

15    the truth here, or did you not state the truth here?

16       A.   It may well happen that the metres may not be very correct.  I

17    cannot give you the exact metres.  That is not quite clear.  As far as the

18    names are concerned, it may well be that they were present.  I do not

19    know.  But since I said it in this statement, so it obviously has

20    happened.

21       Q.   How did it happen, the way you described it here or the way you

22    described it to the German police?  How did it happen?  Because we have

23    two totally different statements.

24       A.   I told you previously, the statement I made to the police can be

25    completely forgotten.  Please drop it.

Page 3890

 1       Q.   You did not lie here when you made this statement to

 2    Mr. Van Hecke, and to Susan Somers?

 3       A.   It may well be that some facts are blurred, but I repeat, I can

 4    say what happened and where it happened.  But when it happened and each

 5    individual operation, I'm not so sure.  We have been so often in these

 6    various places, so I do not know for sure and exactly for sure.

 7       Q.   Yesterday, you also stated that the celebration of General

 8    Andabak's rank was at the Restaurant Kitic.  Is that correct?

 9       A.   Yes, that's what I stated.

10       Q.   Could you please take the statement that you gave on the 28th of

11    October, 1998 - you have it in front of you - when Vassily Poriouvaev was

12    present, and also your own attorney, Mr. Harald Reiser.  Page number 2,

13    paragraph number one, two, three:  "When Andabak was promoted general,

14    this promotion was granted from Zagreb."

15            Question number one:  How come you know it was granted from

16    Zagreb?

17       A.   That's what was said to me.  As I say, this all refers to

18    hearsay.  I personally was not present.

19       Q.   Very well.  And now, tell me, do you know -- do you know about the

20    command structure and the chain of command in the HVO?

21       A.   As far as the command of chain was, we had General Tuta, we had

22    Andabak, and then we had the ATG people, Lija and Cikota, as long as he

23    has lived, and Baja also was there.

24       Q.   That's what you said yesterday, too.  So these are the only people

25    you know from the chain of command; is that right?  No one else?

Page 3891

 1       A.   Yes, that's correct.

 2       Q.   And on that basis, you concluded that they are the most important

 3    people and that they are the ones who are in charge?

 4       A.   Correct.

 5       Q.   Let me continue this sentence.

 6            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Madam Interpreter, we stopped at the

 7    promotion being granted from Zagreb.  Now we proceed.  "People from Zagreb

 8    had come to Siroki Brijeg to give Andabak his promotion."

 9       Q.   Were you present then?  Were you present when these people from

10    Zagreb were promoting Andabak?

11       A.   I said that I was not present.  I know it from hearsay.

12       Q.   Susak also came, and there was a big celebration in Hotel Park.

13            Now, tell me, what is correct?  What you said here or what you

14    said yesterday before the Honourable Trial Chamber?  Which version is not

15    true?

16       A.   As far as I know, both of them.  The first -- first, he was

17    promoted.  And then in a smaller circle, the usual celebrations were held

18    up there with Kitic.

19       Q.   All right.  Very well.

20            [In English] One moment, please.

21            [Interpretation] Excuse me, I would like to put a different

22    question to you now.  Yesterday you said before this Trial Chamber that

23    you saw Mr. Praljak only once, at a funeral at that.

24            MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Stringer?

Page 3892

 1            MR. STRINGER:  Obviously the transcript rules, but I think that's

 2    not the witness's testimony from yesterday.

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Krsnik, you may rephrase your question.  I know

 4    what you are aiming at.

 5            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  My learned friend is

 6    right.

 7       Q.   Once at the funeral and once at Mostar; that's what you said

 8    yesterday.

 9       A.   Correct.

10       Q.   I do apologise once again, indeed.  This was not my intention.

11            You have in front of you the statement you made on the 26th of

12    August, 1999.  Vassily Poriouvaev was present, Jan Van Hecke, and Harald

13    Reiser, your attorney, were present.

14       A.   No, I don't have it.

15       Q.   Madam Interpreter -- oh, I do apologise.  Have you read this

16    section:  "During the first attack in Rastani, I saw General Praljak"?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   "This was soon after the attack on Mostar.  I would describe it in

19    the following way.  He had grey hair behind his ears.  He had grey hair

20    behind his ears.  He was shorter than me, fat and plump.  Plump."  Tell

21    me, please, how tall are you?

22       A.   Approximately 1 metre 75.

23       Q.   And what you said here is true; right?  It is true, isn't it?

24       A.   Maybe some things were mixed up, may well be.  I'm sorry, but I

25    stressed several times over, maybe certain things have been mixed up.

Page 3893

 1       Q.   Please look at this statement.  You have the original version in

 2    the English language.  Did you sign it and thus confirm its accuracy?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Or did you lie here as well?  Had you ever seen Praljak?  You

 5    would have remembered him because he's two metres tall.

 6       A.   I said over and over again:  First of all, these people were

 7    seated in the restaurant.  This, second, in each statement, I usually

 8    referred to what I'm being asked at that moment, and I thought about

 9    things later on.

10       Q.   Please, please.  I am asking you about this statement.  You're

11    talking about Rastani.  This is not at the restaurant.  You're talking

12    about the village of Rastani, and you say decidedly at Rastani you saw

13    General Praljak and you give a description of him.

14       A.   So this is mixed up.  That was not Rastani, but this occurred to

15    me only later, and I corrected it later.

16       Q.   Where did you correct it and how?  When did you realise that?

17    What is it that you have been correcting and where and when?

18       A.   In one of the later statements, I did not say Rastani.  I then

19    kept on saying Mostar.

20       Q.   Witness, this is the last statement you gave to the Prosecution,

21    on the 26th of August, 1999.  Fortunately, we can check out these

22    statements, because the names are here: Mr. Poriouvaev, Bridin O'Rourke,

23    Jan Van Hecke, your lawyer Harald Reiser.  Do you remember that this is

24    your last statement?  So you didn't say the truth even now?  And can you

25    tell me now whether you know where Sovici is?  Have you ever heard of

Page 3894

 1    Sovici?

 2       A.   Sovici?

 3       Q.   You've never heard of the place?

 4       A.   Sovici does not ring a bell with me.

 5       Q.   And now tell me, yesterday we started talking about this.  How did

 6    you reach Doljani?  Via Jablanica or from Masna Luka?

 7       A.   Via Masna Luka.

 8       Q.   You've never heard of Sovici?

 9       A.   Sovici does not ring a bell with me.  I'm sorry.

10            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] All right.  All right.  That's fine.

11    Thank you.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Krsnik, yes, we will resume at 12.00.

13                          --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

14                          --- On resuming at 12.03 p.m.

15            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

16            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

17       Q.   Witness, were you in prison in 1993, any time in 1993?

18       A.   Yes, I was imprisoned for a short time at the border to Germany,

19    and I was fined with a money fine, but that was paid later on.

20       Q.   When was that?

21       A.   I'm sorry, I couldn't tell you the exact date.

22       Q.   But it was 1993, wasn't it?

23       A.   Well, this may well be.

24       Q.   In the statement to the German police which you then withdrew, you

25    said that you were released on the 12th of June, 1993.

Page 3895












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Page 3896

 1       A.   I really do not know.  I'm sorry.

 2       Q.   Tell me, please, after that prison, when did you go back to Mostar

 3    in 1993 -- sorry, no.  When did you go back to Siroki Brijeg?

 4       A.   I think immediately afterwards, but I do not know which month and

 5    day it was.

 6       Q.   In that same statement, the one that you gave to the German

 7    police, you say that you returned sometime before the 20th of June, 1993,

 8    and it was then that Mr. Heinz was murdered, for which then you were

 9    sentenced.  Is that correct?

10       A.   This may well be, but I do not know.

11       Q.   Then in your statement, you also said - and you have it - that

12    there were no actions from the month of June onward.  And it is the last

13    page of your statement, the very beginning of it.  You say:  "Later on,

14    that is, until the 20th of August, 1993, we took part in two or three

15    actions, but nothing happened during them."

16       A.   I mentioned previously that this entire statement - and I think we

17    had agreed on that - that I did not mention all details, that I

18    intentionally skipped a few matters and intentionally did not say the

19    truth in some parts and that I officially then withdrew this statement.

20       Q.   I apologise.  Yes, I heard your answer.  Never mind.

21            And finally, as regard to this statement, you also withdrew the

22    sentence which is on the first page of that text:  "I swear by God and

23    Elsa's life (I swear by Elsa's life because this is the most valuable

24    thing and the most dearest thing to me) that I shall never again wrong

25    anyone ever.  So will you please do all within your power so that I am not

Page 3897

 1    separated from my happiness for much longer."

 2            Did you withdraw that, too; that is, not the last wrong that you

 3    did?

 4       A.   I withdrew my entire statement, all statements which I have made

 5    to the police.

 6       Q.   Very good.  Tell me, I asked you yesterday if you knew that an

 7    investigation had been conducted against you, an investigation which you

 8    were the first accused and Mladen Naletilic the second accused, and which

 9    was conducted by the Federal Bureau for Criminal Investigation in Germany,

10    and that you were suspected of having committed a war crime, that is, the

11    genocide.  I believe it says so.  Do you-- are you aware of the

12    investigation, that witnesses were interviewed, that you gave a statement

13    in relation to that investigation?

14       A.   First of all, you did not tell me that Mr. Mladen Naletilic,

15    General Tuta, was the second one.  You didn't tell me that.  I have only

16    been informed that there was an investigation against me by the Federal

17    authorities in Germany, and this investigation process was then cancelled

18    against me.

19       Q.   Very well.  And Will Roland Franz was one of the potential

20    witnesses interviewed in that case.  Do you know him?

21       A.   This name does not ring any bell with me.

22       Q.   He's the man who took you to the programme called "Einspruch"?

23       A.   I only am aware of a person called Roland Will.

24       Q.   That's the person that I asked you about, Roland Will Franz.  That

25    is the person I just asked you about.

Page 3898

 1       A.   Well, this man is known to me.

 2       Q.   You travelled with that man from Siroki Brijeg to Germany, didn't

 3    you?

 4       A.   Correct, yes.

 5       Q.   Are you on good terms with him?

 6       A.   I only know him from these few days where we had been on our way

 7    and where we were on this TV programme in Sat 1, "Einspruch."

 8       Q.   In his statement to the Federal Bureau for Criminal Investigation

 9    as a witness, he said about you:  "As for Falk Simang, the question of

10    moral conscience, human rights and ethics were of no importance

11    whatsoever."

12            MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, Mr. President, I object.

13            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Stringer?

14            MR. STRINGER:  I object.  I think that the witness doesn't know

15    about what other people have said in other statements.  There is certainly

16    nothing to prevent the Defence from calling people to testify, but I think

17    that this manner or attempt of impeachment is improper.

18            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik, will you please skip this question?

19            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, may I

20    answer my learned friend?  I asked were they on any terms and what kind of

21    terms, and I wanted to ask this witness if he knows why did this man state

22    this.  I merely asked him.  I did not affirm -- I did not put it to him

23    that he knew what this man had said about him, but possibly we shall bear

24    in mind this possible witness and call him if necessary.  But I was merely

25    trying to see whether they were on good -- on good terms or not.  But

Page 3899

 1    never mind.  Let's avoid any further discussion.  I withdraw my question.

 2       Q.   Tell me, please, Witness, what kind of a patch did you have on

 3    your uniform, on the sleeve of your uniform?

 4       A.   The HVO sign.

 5       Q.   And all the members of your unit had the same patch, did they?

 6       A.   Well, this may well be.

 7       Q.   And the ID that we saw yesterday says only that you are a member

 8    of the HVO and nothing else.

 9       A.   Correct.

10       Q.   Tell me, please, when you returned from the prison in Germany, did

11    you stop in Zagreb?

12       A.   Well, I would not know any more.  Maybe, but I can't remember.

13       Q.   Did you run into any trouble with Mafia in Zagreb and you fled

14    from them and hid in Siroki Brijeg?  Is that correct?

15       A.   Unfortunately, nothing of that sort is known to me.

16       Q.   Are you aware that they looked for you in Siroki Brijeg and

17    inquired about you, those men from Zagreb?  Are you aware of that?

18       A.   No, nothing is known to me about it.

19       Q.   At the Heliodrom, where you spent a very short time, as you

20    stated, could you tell the Court if it is a large facility, were there

21    many troops there, or were you the only troops that were there?

22       A.   As far as I know, our unit was the only one.  At least in the

23    building where I was, we were the only unit.

24       Q.   Was there a military prison there?

25       A.   Yes, there was something like that there.

Page 3900

 1       Q.   And there were soldiers there serving some disciplinary punishment

 2    or similar types of punishment?

 3       A.   It may well be, but I do not know.

 4       Q.   How do you know that General Praljak is a general in the Croatian

 5    army?  Did somebody tell you that, or do you know it of your own

 6    knowledge?  How did you arrive at that conclusion?

 7       A.   First, I was told that he was a general of the HV, and then he had

 8    a patch at his chest.

 9       Q.   On his chest, you mean?  Here?  Here?

10       A.   Yes.  It was a patch indicating a rank, and nobody from our side

11    used to have it.

12       Q.   And where did the HVO officers have their rank insignia?

13       A.   As far as I know, none of ours had such a rank.  It was all on the

14    Iskaznica.  For instance, in the case of Mr. Mrachacz, it said "captain"

15    in Croatian language, and that's all I know.

16       Q.   And they had no insignia whatsoever on their uniforms?

17       A.   No.  Nothing is known to me that in our unit that somebody would

18    have a rank insignia.

19       Q.   And on the basis of what you saw, that Mr. Praljak had his rank

20    insignia on his breast, you concluded from that that he was a general in

21    the Croatian army?

22       A.   No, by no means.  I do neither know the rank insignia of a

23    general.  I was just told that it was so.  But I cannot tell you whether

24    this was the rank insignia of a general.

25       Q.   And who told you that he was a general?

Page 3901

 1       A.   Mr. Mrachacz told me.

 2       Q.   Tell me, please -- we shall first -- but very briefly, only a few

 3    questions to do with your statements, and then we shall be over and move

 4    on to a completely different subject.

 5            Tell me, please, you have the statement before you, 20th of

 6    August, '97.  You have it?  Page 5.

 7       A.   26 August 1999, or what?

 8       Q.   20th of August.  We already had a look at this statement.  20th of

 9    August, 1997, present Jan Van Hecke and Peter Nicholson.

10       A.   16th, 17th of April I've got here, but I have no statement of the

11    20th of August.

12            JUDGE LIU:  So far as I know, it is 1998, rather than 1997.

13            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, both on the English and

14    the Croatian version, it says the 20th of August, 1997.

15            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, there is a statement dated the 20th

16    of August, 1997.  I don't know whether it has been provided to the witness

17    yet.  I do have an extra copy of it, if it would assist.

18            JUDGE LIU:  Certainly not, because we haven't been informed about

19    this statement.

20            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour.

21            JUDGE LIU:  Could it be furnished to the witness, if you want to

22    ask some questions about the statement.

23            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes.

24       Q.   I'll apologise.  I must find that particular passage so as not to

25    waste too much time.

Page 3902












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Page 3903

 1            Tell me, please, do you remember what you said before this Court

 2    yesterday about the action at high noon?

 3       A.   I do.

 4       Q.   You said that morning Tuta had given you your tasks, and at high

 5    noon.  Remember that?

 6       A.   Yes, I do.

 7       Q.   Now, my colleagues are looking for the statement on page 8.

 8            MR. KRSNIK: [In English] Please be so kind as to give the

 9    statement.

10       Q.   [Interpretation] I underlined the beginning of the passage.

11            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Stringer.

12            MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I just wasn't clear

13    which statement we're working with now, the date of the statement.

14            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My learned friend, the 20th of

15    August, 1997.  In the English version, it is page 6.

16       Q.   And here you say as follows:  "At 10.00, the order came to shell

17    the minarets.  The order was given by an officer, whose name I do not

18    know, who arrived in a new BMW 3 series.  He told us which minaret we were

19    to fire at and also told us to wait.  Then he drove further to other

20    units."

21            Do you remember giving that -- making the statement to the

22    investigators of this Tribunal and confirming its authenticity with your

23    signature?

24       A.   This may well be, yes.

25       Q.   Now, is this true?  Did you lie in this statement, or did you lie

Page 3904

 1    before the Court yesterday?  You said that that morning at a meeting, Tuta

 2    assigned the tasks and everything else and then called you at noon on his

 3    Motorola.

 4       A.   Yes, that's correct.  Both is true.  In the morning, we were given

 5    orders.  We were given a map.  And on top of the hill where we were to

 6    take our position, this man with the BMW came on top of that.

 7       Q.   Fine, fine.  And to cap it all, where was your position with

 8    Bofors in Mostar?  Where were you positioned in Mostar?

 9       A.   You mean at this "high noon" mission?  On a hill, on a slope so

10    that we could shoot target at the Neretva.

11       Q.   But I'm talking about only that.

12            MR. KRSNIK: [In English] Exhibit Number 11.18.

13       Q.   [Interpretation] Will you please take the pointer and show us

14    where were you exactly.  And this is a very good plan of Mostar with all

15    the streets and even the surroundings.

16       A.   I'm sorry.  I can't recognise anything on this map.

17       Q.   Very well.  Will you, then, take your statement of the 16th and

18    17th of April, 1997.  You have it before you.  It's the one when Jan

19    Van Hecke and Susan Somers were present.  Last page, last passage.  It's

20    the last passage, and it says:  "I remember one more incident when Tuta

21    ordered to shell the mosque in East Mostar on a day in September 1993 at

22    12.00.  That morning, Tuta briefed us and we had to go to our positions.

23    The coordinates of the mosque were given to the artillery, and at exactly

24    12.00 noon Tuta ordered to start -- to issue the order over Motorola to

25    start the shelling."

Page 3905

 1            And now I skip the following two or three sentences, and I'm

 2    coming to the last two or three sentences or, rather, the last sentence in

 3    your statement -- no, the last two sentences are:  "My position was on the

 4    hill above the Mostar hospital, about 2.5 metres away from my target."

 5       A.   Kilometres.

 6       Q.   Over here it says 2 and a half metres in my statement.

 7       A.   In my version, it says kilometres.

 8       Q.   All right.  This can be checked.  In my version, it says 2 and a

 9    half metres.  Has this jogged your memory?  Do you remember where your

10    position was now?  Can you point out the hill above Mostar and also where

11    your target was?

12       A.   No.  I'm sorry, I cannot point at that.  I'm not well-versed at

13    all with maps.

14       Q.   You don't even know how far the hospital in Mostar was -- is from

15    the eastern part or, rather, the hill above the hospital?

16       A.   I have no idea, no.

17       Q.   So then this officer who came to see you at 10.00, he was not

18    there?

19       A.   I cannot even say whether there were hills.  The only thing I know

20    is that we had maps, that we were given orders, what we had to fire at.

21    But I cannot tell you where exactly our position was.

22       Q.   So what it says here, that you were on a hill above the Mostar

23    hospital, is simply not true?

24       A.   No.  I wouldn't say that.  It may well be true, but I'm sorry, I

25    cannot remember exactly.

Page 3906

 1       Q.   And where was your target?  What was your target?  You said that

 2    you knew exactly what your target was and that it was two and a half

 3    kilometres away.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Stringer?

 5            MR. STRINGER:  My objection, Mr. President, is that counsel has

 6    just given the witness two questions, neither of which he's allowed the

 7    witness to answer.  I'm just simply asking the witness be allowed to

 8    answer the two questions:  "Where was your target?  What was your

 9    target?"

10            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

11            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   Could I please have answers to these questions?

13       A.   Our target was on the Muslim side.  Eastern or western side, I

14    always get mixed up.  It was to shoot over the Neretva --

15            THE INTERPRETER:  And could the witness please repeat the last

16    words?

17       A.   At the other side of the Neretva.  We were to target at mosques,

18    at minarets.  We had a map, and there it was exactly given and drawn in

19    what we should have to fire at.

20       Q.   Very well.  And my final question related to your statements.

21    Please this last statement I gave you, the 20th of August, 1997.

22            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I think, Madam Interpreter, that it's

23    somewhere around page number 5.  I think we've underlined it in the

24    version that you have.  I think that my colleagues marked this passage.

25    "The other day" --

Page 3907

 1            THE ENGLISH INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please slow down?  The

 2    booth is unable to follow him.

 3            THE GERMAN INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry, what is underlined is on

 4    page 6.  It says:  "At 10.00 the order came to shell the minarets."

 5    That's what's underneath this statement.

 6            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Madam, it's either page number 4 or

 7    page number 5.  I really don't know.  I gave it to my colleagues so that

 8    they could check it out.  [In English] Oh, you have it.

 9       Q.   [Interpretation] That is precisely the passage I was referring

10    to.  I'm going to read these two sentences for the Trial Chamber.  "The

11    other day of the operation Tuta said we had to cleanse the other part of

12    Mostar --"

13            THE ENGLISH INTERPRETER:  This is too fast for the booth.

14            MR. KRSNIK: Sorry, sorry, sorry, Your Honours.

15       Q.   [Interpretation] "The eastern part was supposed to be separated

16    from the western part.  This order was issued to us in the Croatian

17    language.  Vlado translated it for us.  Andabak was present, at the time a

18    colonel, as well as Cikota, who was either a major or a lieutenant

19    colonel.  Leia [as interpreted] and Baja were also present together with

20    the whole ATG."

21            Is that correct?  That statement, is it correct?

22       A.   It may well be.  I do not know.  I do not even know which

23    operation is meant here.

24       Q.   Well, you've just read it twice.  "The other day of the operation,

25    Tuta said that we had to cleanse the western side of Mostar."

Page 3908

 1       A.   But this has nothing to do with the 12 "high noon" operation.

 2    This must be something else here.

 3       Q.   Thank you.  Of course it's something else.  Of course it is.

 4    That's why I gave you this to read.  Of course.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Krsnik, I think you have to be fair to this

 6    witness.  You should concentrate on one statement, then another, rather

 7    than moving from one statement to another at the same time.  And also you

 8 have to organise your cross-examination, for one part just mainly dealing

 9  with the statements, for the other part just to deal with the other facts.

10    It is very difficult, even for us, to follow you all the way down.

11            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I just

12    concluded with the statements, and now I'm moving on to the other part of

13    my cross-examination.  However, I did give this to the witness to read,

14    and it says here clearly, quite clearly, absolutely clearly what this is.

15    It is an order that was issued.  And I asked whether that is correct and

16    whether these people actually were present.  It's quite clear.

17            JUDGE CLARK:  Mr. Krsnik, he has to have an opportunity to realise

18    from which statement that particular paragraph has come.  He has to have

19    an opportunity to see it in context, because I can tell you, Mr. Krsnik, I

20    am utterly confused in relation to the statements.  And I think I speak

21    for the Bench.

22            We would like an opportunity to see these statements.  I don't

23    know what particular passage you are putting to the witness.  For

24    instance, the witness was answering the 12 -- the "high noon" operation,

25    and then we talk about a number of senior officers who were present with

Page 3909

 1    no relationship between which operation you are talking about.  And you

 2    have to be fair to him.  He seems to have made a lot of statements.  It

 3    isn't fair, in my view, for you to take a small part of a statement out of

 4    context.

 5            So I know what you are trying to do, and you are doing it very

 6    well, but you really must be more fair to him and maybe to the Bench as

 7    well.

 8            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] I personally wanted to add that

 9    since we have in front of us a witness who is very willing to cooperate so

10    far, there is no point in repeating that you've lied or have you lied

11    again, since he, himself, recognises that.  He said he hasn't told the

12    whole truth.  He withdrew it all.  Because if he stops cooperating, we

13    won't be served by that at all.  Thank you.

14            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for

15    everything you have cautioned me about.  I shall certainly abide by that.

16    But we are doing all of this for you, and it is the most important thing

17    for you to be able to follow all of this.  I'm so sorry there has been a

18    misunderstanding.  I seem to have things in my head, and then I keep

19    forgetting that other people do not.

20            THE INTERPRETER:  Counsel will have to slow down.

21            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I seem to think that everybody has

22    all of this in their minds, and then I keep rushing matters.  I'm sorry.

23       Q.   So this last section that we had discussed; that is, the statement

24    that you gave on the 20th of August, 1997.  Present were Jan Van Hecke and

25    Peter Nicholson.  Lothar Wogschin was the interpreter.  And it concerns a

Page 3910












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13   English transcripts.













Page 3911

 1    particular action in Mostar which has nothing in common with the action

 2    that you called the "high noon" action, either in terms of time or in

 3    terms of anything else.  This particular action is the one that you have

 4    just read out to us; that is, that Tuta issued you an order to cleanse the

 5    western part of Mostar.  I think that's what you read out.  Right?

 6       A.   Correct.

 7       Q.   Now we know what action we are talking about.  Now we understand

 8    fully which action we are talking about.

 9            JUDGE CLARK:  I honestly think that to be of assistance to us,

10    that this witness should be given an opportunity to read his entire

11    statement, not just a piece of it, and that takes a little time.

12            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  It is precisely

13    because of time that I did not suggest that.  But by all means, let him

14    read the statement.

15                          [Trial Chamber confers]

16                          [Statement read to witness]

17            THE WITNESS'S INTERPRETER:  There's an abbreviation in the

18    statement, "JNA."  This is on page 3, fourth paragraph, and the witness

19    does not know what this abbreviation means.  I think most of the other

20    soldiers in KB had served in the JNA.

21            THE ENGLISH INTERPRETER:  Interpretation booth notes that JNA is

22    Yugoslav People's Army.

23            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance, this is

24    the Yugoslav People's Army.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Stringer.

Page 3912

 1            MR. STRINGER:  We agree.

 2                          [Statement read to witness].

 3            JUDGE LIU:  While the witness is reading the statement, could I

 4    ask Mr. Stringer to do something for us?

 5            MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  The first thing is that could we be furnished with all

 7    those statements?  So far as I know, there are about six statements given

 8    by this witness before.

 9            And the second thing is that could you provide us some information

10    concerning with the legal status of the statement given by this witness to

11    the German police?  He himself claimed that those witnesses officially

12    withdraw.  In some jurisdictions, the unilateral withdrawal is valid; in

13    some others, it's not.  We just want to know some background of the legal

14    status of the statements given to the German police.

15            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I can inform the Trial Chamber there

16    are four statements which the witness provided to the Office of the

17    Prosecutor, and then the fifth is the earliest, which is the one that was

18    provided to the German authorities, which you've heard about.  During the

19    course of the investigation, the Office of the Prosecutor obtained, from

20    the German authorities, the Prosecution file, if you will, which was

21    disclosed to the Defence during the pre-trial phase of this case.  I don't

22    know at this time the legal effect in Germany of withdrawing one's

23    statement, but we can perhaps make that inquiry to the German government

24    and provide that information to the Trial Chamber.  We will provide all of

25    those statements to the Trial Chamber.

Page 3913

 1            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

 2            Yes, Mr. Krsnik?  You want to add something on this very issue?

 3            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour, for

 4    giving me the floor.  I think that I can be of assistance to the Trial

 5    Chamber because I am familiar with German law because our own system

 6    relies almost 90 per cent to criminal -- on criminal procedure as it is in

 7    Germany and Austria, with a few exceptions.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  You are also invited to submit your submissions

 9    concerning with this matter.  We are not going to debate it in the

10    courtroom at this moment.

11            Mr. Stringer, we also would like to know the -- whether you could

12    provide us with the statements of another convicted witness.

13            MR. STRINGER:  That would be the other prisoner that appeared

14    before the Trial Chamber some weeks ago?

15            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

16            MR. STRINGER:  Yes, we can provide all statements.  I don't know

17    if there is one that comes from the German proceedings, but whatever we

18    have, we will provide to the Trial Chamber.

19            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

20                          [Statement read to witness]

21            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] By your leave, Your Honours, can I

22    just ask the lady interpreter whether they have come to the section that I

23    asked about?  Because that is what matters.  Afterwards, it deals with

24    completely different things.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, yes, please.

Page 3914

 1            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] May I ask you, Madam Interpreter,

 2    have you reached the section that we had discussed before?

 3            THE WITNESS'S INTERPRETER:  Your Honour, I read -- we read through

 4    the beginning of page 4 where it says "We had five or six targets."  That

 5    is the third paragraph on page 4.  That is the last one I translated for

 6    the witness.

 7            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I just wanted to ask you to stop when

 8    you reach the section that I had been referring to, because after that,

 9    the statement deals with completely different matters.  Thank you very

10    much.

11                          [Statement read to witness]

12            JUDGE CLARK:  Could I take the opportunity of asking either the

13    Prosecution or the Defence, if either of you can assist us, to see whether

14    on the map that was provided to us that we could find the village of Masna

15    Luka?  Because we have been singularly unsuccessful.

16            MR. STRINGER:  It is on there.  If it's all right, I could point

17    to it.

18            JUDGE CLARK:  If you give it to the usher, I will share it with

19    the -- [no microphone].

20            MR. STRINGER:  With the Trial Chamber's permission, I could

21    highlight that place.

22            THE WITNESS'S INTERPRETER:  The whole 18G is the last part I

23    translated for the witness, on page 4.

24            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

25            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] You have read the whole statement

Page 3915

 1    now, and you, I guess, understand -- only down to the passage that we've

 2    already read out three times, and will you stop there, please, Madam

 3    Interpreter.

 4            THE WITNESS'S INTERPRETER:  This is where I stopped, Your Honour.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, you may proceed, Mr. Krsnik.

 6            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

 7       Q.   All I want to ask you is:  In that statement which you gave to the

 8    Prosecutor's Office and confirmed with your signature, now you've read it

 9    through, what the Defence would like to know, when that order was issued

10    to separate the western from the eastern part of Mostar, that that order

11    was issued and it was translated by Vlado or the present Andabak who at

12    that time was a colonel, as well as Cikota, who had -- who was either a

13    major or a lieutenant colonel -- now, my first question is:  Is that true

14    and is that correct?

15       A.   It may well be true.  Unfortunately, I cannot remember the whole

16    statement, and I do not know what it's all about.

17            MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

18            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Stringer?

19            MR. STRINGER:  There are a number of -- there is a number of

20    points that are found in those passages, and we'd ask the witness be

21    directed specifically to a point.  If counsel is challenging or wishes to

22    put a specific point to the witness, he should do it.  But there is an

23    indication about Andabak being a colonel, a number of people present, Tuta

24    issued the order to separate east from west.  What is the point that he

25    asks the witness to affirm or to deny?  That's our request.

Page 3916

 1            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Krsnik, this is a statement made by this

 2    witness before.  It is all there.  There's no need to ask him whether it's

 3    truth or is it correct.  You just need to ask another question, following

 4    question, rather than this one.  Thank you.

 5            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, we

 6    read the passage four times during the cross-examination.  Now, we read

 7    the integral text.  The first question that is of my concern, Your

 8    Honours, is whether the statement which we've read is true and correct.

 9    Now, my second question will come, and my second question is:  How does he

10    know that Andabak was a colonel?

11       Q.   How do you know?

12       A.   That's what I was told.  I was told he was a colonel.

13       Q.   And the same now applies to Cikota.  Were you told that Cikota was

14    a major or lieutenant colonel?  You do not know it of your own?

15       A.   Yes, that's what was said to me.

16       Q.   Thank you very much.  Thank you.

17            Now, my last question is:  What is the Bofors range?  What is the

18    range of a Bofor?

19       A.   You mean the range of shooting, the distance to shoot?  When you

20    shoot right away, it's 3 to 3 and a half kilometres.  And when you shoot

21    in a bow, you can reach even 4 and a half to 5 kilometres.

22       Q.   Thank you very much.

23            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I show this

24    photograph to the witness, since this is the Prosecution's exhibit --

25    could the usher please help me.  I just want to ask him, to ask to see

Page 3917












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13   English transcripts.













Page 3918

 1    whether this photocopy -- whether the Prosecutor could authenticate this,

 2    because this is a photocopy of the photograph.  I would like to know if it

 3    corresponds with the original.

 4            No, no, no, will you please show it to the Prosecutor first, and

 5    then I will show it to the witness.  I just want the corroboration,

 6    whether it is, indeed, a copy of the original, because the Prosecutor's

 7    exhibit, Your Honours, there are markings, and that is why I had to make a

 8    photocopy.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  What's the number for those photographs?  You have to

10    tell us the numbers so we could know where --

11            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Stringer.

13            MR. STRINGER:  This appears to be fine, Mr. President.

14            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

15            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Will you please now -- [In English]

16    Give the original to me.  For the record, this is Exhibit Number 11.

17            [Interpretation] Could you put it on the ELMO, please.

18       Q.   Can you tell me, Witness, if you recognise this building.  Can you

19    identify it?  Where is it?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   And you never saw it before?

22       A.   I cannot remember now.

23       Q.   Thank you very much.  Thank you.

24            Now, I'll ask you, Witness, and I will phrase my questions so that

25    you can answer them with yes or no:  Is it true that you're a man who has

Page 3919

 1    crossed half of Europe, that is, to first join the Foreign Legion, then

 2    the Croatian army, then the HVO, and you even spent some time with the

 3    Muslims after you arrived in Mostar, so that somebody would take you up as

 4    a mercenary so that you could kill people for money?  Is that correct?

 5            I want you to answer yes or no, please.

 6       A.   But there's several questions embedded in one question,

 7    Mr. Counsellor, and I cannot answer with a simple yes or no.

 8       Q.   Be so kind, the question is very simple.  First, did you try to

 9    find a place for yourself in the Foreign Legion, the Croatian army, the

10    HVO - just a moment - so as to become a mercenary in a war so as to kill

11    people for money?  Tell me yes or no.  Is that correct or isn't it?

12       A.   This is a question I can answer with yes.

13       Q.   And when you joined the HVO, were you told that they did not need

14    any "Rambos" and that one had to adhere to the rules?  Is that correct, or

15    is it not correct?

16       A.   That's correct.

17       Q.   You misused those rules from the word go.  You violated these

18    rules, and that is why you are in prison now, because you killed two

19    innocent people.  Is that correct?  Yes or no?

20       A.   No, that's not correct.

21       Q.   You are sentenced to a lifetime in prison, and you could come out

22    in 15 years' time, and that is what you are hoping for.  Is that correct?

23    Yes or no?

24       A.   No, that's not correct.

25       Q.   How many times -- Ms. Susan Somers, the Prosecutor of this

Page 3920

 1    Tribunal, how many times did she visit you in prison?

 2       A.   I cannot exactly answer this question.

 3       Q.   In your letter of the 30th of December, 1997, which you sent to

 4    Mrs. Lieder, if I'm reading this correctly, Penal Sentences Section.  This

 5    is what you wrote:  "Mr. Jan Van Hecke -- [In English] assured me that

 6    everything would be done to protect my life and to ensure that I suffered

 7    no disadvantages.  Moreover, help would be forthcoming regarding the

 8    imminent reopening of my case because the people from The Hague could only

 9    shake their heads at what has happened here.  The state attorney,

10    Mr. Susan Somers [sic], said that I had been treated disgustingly but they

11    would do everything to help me secure a fair trial and, above all, a fair

12    sentence."

13            [Interpretation] For the record, line 9 in the transcript should

14    read:  "Not distinctly not reopening."

15            THE ENGLISH INTERPRETER:  Unfortunately, the interpreter did not

16    understand the first word.

17            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise to the Honourable Court.

18    Of course, my English is not my native language and we were only disclosed

19    the English version.  We have never received the Croatian version, even if

20    that was a long time ago.  We tried to translate some of the text a long

21    time ago.

22            MR. STRINGER:  As we previously indicated, and consistent with the

23    practice, at least to date, there is no B/C/S version of these letters.

24    They were disclosed to the Defence both in the original German, which was

25    written by the witness, and the English versions.  We have disclosed all

Page 3921

 1    the letters to the Defence, I might add.

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Krsnik, if you want to ask some questions,

 3    better put them in German to this witness so that it will make things

 4    easier.

 5            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honours, if I

 6    have an opportunity to do so.  But what I wanted to point out is that we

 7    have a large number of letters, they are all in English, and I cannot show

 8    them because they are not in a version that the witness understands and it

 9    would take too much time, so that I will nevertheless try to focus, that

10    is, cut my cross-examination shorter, since I need to tender this into

11    evidence anyway, all the letters, the judgements and the statements.  We

12    have them ready, and we shall tender them today.

13       Q.   Tell me, those letters that you wrote to the OTP of this Tribunal,

14    are they truthful?

15       A.   Well, if you say so that I have written them, then obviously I

16    wrote them.

17       Q.   I'm asking you if in your correspondence with the investigators

18    and prosecutors of this Tribunal, are these letters truthful?  Very

19    simple.  Or did you in them -- or did you bypass the truth in them again?

20       A.   I don't know what you are referring to now.

21       Q.   Well, for instance, you say that you were given no promises, and

22    here it says clearly that very many things were promised to you.

23       A.   As far as I can remember, I told you yesterday or today that the

24    only thing which I was promised was that the documents -- that my lawyer

25    or I would receive the documents - and I do not mean my letters, but

Page 3922

 1    others - and that my life would be protected.  As far as I can remember,

 2    this is what I said either today or yesterday.

 3       Q.   Witness, please be so kind, I read out to you very clearly what

 4    you had written in your letter, what Ms. Somers had promised you.  It has

 5    nothing to do with what you have just been telling us.  In this letter,

 6    you refer specifically about the retrial.

 7            MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Stringer?

 9            MR. STRINGER:  I think, consistent with the practice of

10    cross-examining the witnesses with other statements he's made, I think

11    it's fair to put this letter to the witness and allow him an opportunity

12    to see what he's being cross-examined about, preferably the letter in the

13    German language which he wrote and which has been disclosed to Defence

14    counsel.

15            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik.  I think this is a legitimate request

16    for this witness to read his own letter.

17            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour.  But I am not

18    the one who brought this position upon himself.  I only have the English

19    version.  And I give him -- I can give him the English version once

20    again.

21            JUDGE LIU:  You may furnish this letter to the interpreter.

22                          [Letter interpreted to witness]

23       A.   I'm not -- everything is correct, with the exception of the word

24    "disgraceful."  I think I have not used the word "disgracefully."

25            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

Page 3923

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6            MR. KRSNIK:  Can we go into private session?

 7            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we can go into private session just for this

 8    sentence to be redacted.

 9                          [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3924












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13   English transcripts.













Page 3925

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                          [Open session]

10            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.  Thank you very much.

11       Q.   Witness, is it true that Prosecutor Somers said that you had

12    received poor treatment in the German prison and promised that she'd do

13    anything to bring you to The Hague as a witness?  Is that correct?

14       A.   I have been asked --

15       Q.   Yes or no, please, be so kind.  I asked you a very simple

16    question.  Is it correct to say that Prosecutor Somers said that you had

17    received bad treatment in prison and that she'd do everything to bring you

18    as a witness to The Hague?  Is that correct?  Please.

19       A.   I cannot remember that Mrs. Somers has said that I was receiving

20    bad treatment in prison.  How should she know?  Because she would have

21    only heard it from myself.

22       Q.   Witness, I will have to ask you -- you see that I'm phrasing my

23    questions in this way.  Now, if you think that my questions are not

24    correct, please say so, but I do not want any additional comments.  How

25    many times -- no, sorry, how many times did she visit you?  How often did

Page 3926

 1    other investigators or prosecutors visit you?  Do you remember that?

 2       A.   No, I stated previously, as a response to a question, that I

 3    cannot remember exactly.

 4       Q.   In your letter of the 31st of December, 1997, you wrote that the

 5    lady visited you twice.  Is that correct?

 6       A.   If it's written so, it may be true, but I cannot tell you now.

 7       Q.   And is it true to say that you came to testify here so as to get a

 8    better treatment at the place where you are and a transfer from where you

 9    are at present?

10       A.   No, that's not true.

11       Q.   Is it true that in your letter of the 30th of December, 1997, you

12    wrote that the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal would do its

13    utmost to help you get a retrial and possibly a milder sentence?  Is that

14    correct?

15       A.   No, that's not correct.

16       Q.   Is it true that you hope that in exchange for your testimony

17    before this Court, you will be able to leave the prison in (redacted) prior

18    to the end of your sentence due to the Prosecutor's promise that he -- she

19    would help you?

20       A.   No, that's not true.  And you ask your question in a completely

21    wrong manner, and you do everything to project it in a different light.

22            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I shall be very brief

23    after the break.  I'm coming to the end of my questions.  Another

24    10 minutes perhaps.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Krsnik, I have to warn you that we are not very

Page 3927

 1    satisfied with the last part of your cross-examination.  First, there are

 2    a lot of repeated questions.  You ask the one question again and again

 3    several times.

 4            Another thing is that this Trial Chamber has made a ruling

 5    concerning the documents.  If you want to ask some questions which are in

 6    a statement of a witness, you have to -- you have to -- put this document

 7    to this witness, no matter if it's a statement or a letter or something

 8    else in written form; that is to the benefit of the Chamber as well as to

 9    the fairness to the witness.  If these things happen in the future

10    proceedings, we'll have to make a ruling again banning you from presenting

11    that document.  I'm sorry to say that, but I have to.

12            So we'll adjourn until 3.00 this afternoon.

13                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.35 p.m.













Page 3928


 2                          --- On resuming at 3.07 p.m.

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik.  Please continue.

 4            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 5       Q.   Witness, my last few questions for you, they will be very short.

 6    And please just give me yes or no answers.  Witness, sir, do you think

 7    you're a good actor?

 8       A.   This is a question I cannot answer because I do not have a

 9    training as an actor.

10       Q.   Tell me, weren't you a good actor when you acted as if you had

11    military experience, and then you were admitted into a unit on the basis

12    of that?  Just say yes or no.

13       A.   This has nothing to do with playing an actor.

14       Q.   Weren't you a good actor when you convinced Bieske that you were

15    going to take him to a disco club and to get some girls, although you knew

16    that you'd kill him?

17       A.   This again has nothing to do with being an actor.

18       Q.   Weren't you a good actor when you pretended to Mr. Heinz you were

19    taking him to Tomislavgrad to another unit, although you knew that he

20    would be killed?

21       A.   This, again, has nothing to do with being an actor, and on top of

22    that, it was not my decision.

23       Q.   Didn't you convince everyone that Bieske was a thief, although you

24    knew that he had not stolen anything from you?

25       A.   First of all, I have not convinced him.  Second, I've never said

Page 3929

 1    that he had stolen something from me, but from other people.

 2       Q.   Weren't you a good actor for Tuta when you pretended and said that

 3    he had stolen things from other people too, although you knew that he had

 4    not?

 5       A.   I have never played this as an actor.  It is the truth, and it is

 6    continuing to be the truth.

 7       Q.   Didn't you act in front of the German court when you said that you

 8    had received orders from Tuta, although you had never received them?

 9       A.   This is again nothing to do with acting.  It's the full truth.

10       Q.   Did you not shoot Bieske in the stomach so that he would not soil

11    the car with his blood, the same car that you killed him for and that you

12    took for yourself immediately?

13       A.   I shoot him in the belly, but I did not keep the car to myself.

14    But the key of this car was handed in, in the base, because this car was

15    part and parcel of the Convicts Battalion.

16       Q.   Tell me, aren't you trying to act today as well, because if you

17    are a successful actor, either your prison sentence will be reduced or you

18    will be retried in Germany?

19       A.   I'm not acting, by no means.  And you as a lawyer should know the

20    other thing, that the Tribunal has no influence on German affairs.

21       Q.   Wouldn't you testify against your own father if that could reduce

22    your prison sentence and get you out earlier, before 15 years?

23            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Krsnik, I think this question is too personal.

24    You have to rephrase it.

25            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I withdraw that question, Your

Page 3930

 1    Honour.

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

 3            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, should I tender the

 4    Defence exhibits now, or should I wait until we finish?

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Wait until we finish.  Thank you.

 6            Any cross-examination from the Defence counsel for

 7    Mr. Martinovic?

 8            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence of Vinko

 9    Martinovic has no cause or reason to cross-examine.

10            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.

11            Any re-examination?  Mr. Stringer?

12            MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thank you.

13                          Re-examined by Mr. Stringer:

14       Q.   Witness, during the cross-examination, you were asked about

15    referring to Tuta as "General Tuta."  Were you ever present when others

16    called him "General Tuta"?

17       A.   Yes, I was.

18       Q.   Do you recall if he ever corrected those people or told people not

19    to call him "General Tuta"?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Witness, if you still have the statements there in front of you,

22    I'm going to ask you to look at the statement that's dated the 20th of

23    August, 1997.  I direct you to page 6 of the English version.

24            MR. STRINGER:  And it may assist if I could suggest we just put

25    that on the ELMO so that everyone can see what part we're talking about.

Page 3931

 1            JUDGE LIU:  That's the English version?

 2            MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President.

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

 4            MR. STRINGER:

 5       Q.   Now, Witness, you can't read this because it's in English, but I'm

 6    going to direct you to a portion of it that Mr. Krsnik asked you about

 7    during the cross-examination.  The paragraph that -- the first paragraph

 8    that starts on that page starts with the words "Another reason ..."  What

 9    I would like to do is to skip down five lines to the words that begin with

10    "At 10.00 hours, the order came ..."  I'll just read it to you.

11    Mr. Krsnik read this to you already:

12            "At 10.00 hours the order came to shell the minerats.  The order

13    was given by an officer, name unknown, who arrived in a new BMW 3 series.

14    He told us which minerat we had to target.  He also told us to wait, and

15    he drove further to other units."

16            What I would like to do is just to continue reading from your

17    statement the part where Mr. Krsnik stopped reading.

18            "All minerats were targeted.  I think in total five or six

19    minerats were targeted.  Our Bofors had to target one single minerat as

20    from 10.00 hours we had to sit and wait on our Bofors ready to shoot.  At

21    exactly 12.00 noon, the order came from Tuta, through the Motorola, to

22    start fire.  All Motorolas were, during this action, put on channel 1.

23    Another order that we got already in the morning was that there should be

24    no radio communication before the order to shell would come.  This is

25    probably the reason why the officer came to point out our target

Page 3932












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 3933

 1    himself."

 2            Now, Witness, I just wanted to ask you, the part that I just read,

 3    is that your statement and is that your recollection of the events that

 4    occurred during what we're calling the "high noon" attack on Mostar?

 5       A.   Yes, this is what I recall.

 6       Q.   I would like to direct you now to your statement dated April of

 7    1997, page 10.  I want to read this part and ask you whether this is your

 8    statement.

 9            "I remember one more incident when Tuta ordered to shell the

10    mosques in East Mostar on a day in September 1993 at 12.00 noon.  Tuta

11    briefed us in the morning, and we had to go to our positions.  The

12    coordinates of the mosques were given to the artillery.  And at exactly

13    12.00 noon, Tuta gave the order through the Motorola to start shelling.

14    We decided to do it at 12.00 because at that time, the mosques were filled

15    with people praying.  Tuta asked me to fire with my 40 millimetre canon to

16    the -- a specific mosque.  All the targets were selected by Tuta.  Each

17    group in the unit knew its own specific target before the order to fire

18    came."

19            Again, Witness, I'll ask you, is that your statement?

20       A.   Yes, it is.

21       Q.   Now, Witness, you were asked about events in Doljani.  And

22    continuing with the same statement from April of 1997, I want to again

23    direct your attention to a part of it, page 8.

24            Counsel, during the cross-examination, referred to you a part of

25    this.  And I'd like to refer you to the complete passage, approximately

Page 3934

 1    the 12th line from the top, which begins with the words "The Muslim

 2    people."  "The Muslim people, and only the Muslim people, were then

 3    expelled outside the village limits.  This (sic) were the people that were

 4    in the mosque and one woman who was still in her house."

 5            Now I'll read the part that was omitted during the

 6    cross-examination:  "Then the mosque was blown up.  It was clear to me

 7    that the mosque was never used for military purposes.  It was also clear

 8    to me that this was a revenge action from Tuta for the death of Cikota.

 9    This mosque was close to our headquarters in Doljani, and Tuta was present

10    during this action."

11            Now, Witness, let me ask you, does that statement -- is that

12    consistent with your recollection of the destruction of the mosque in

13    Doljani?

14       A.   Yes, it is.

15       Q.   Now, I want to ask you, without referring you to the statement --

16    you spoke -- you were asked about other events which occurred in Doljani,

17    particularly treatment of prisoners.  And I want to ask you -- you

18    testified already that prisoners were --

19            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

20            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I do apologise to my colleague,

21    Mr. Stringer.  I would like to object because I did not put a single

22    question regarding the treatment of prisoners.

23            JUDGE LIU:  That's true, Mr. Stringer.  Unless you have very

24    strong reason to ask this question, I won't allow you to go to that

25    direction.

Page 3935

 1            MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, what I'm referring to is a statement

 2    that counsel made during the cross-examination.  I don't have the record

 3    reference in front of me, but I noted it at the time, and my concern

 4    was -- or my note was to the effect that counsel was asking whether

 5    prisoners were taken out to Ljubuski or whether prisoners were executed in

 6    Doljani, whether that was a single incident which the witness was giving

 7    inconsistent accounts of.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Krsnik, do you have an explanation on this

 9    point?

10            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the same one I gave in

11    cross-examination.  The statement was quite the opposite, that prisoners

12    were taken to Ljubuski and they were not executed; and the other statement

13    said the complete opposite, they were not executed.  And then in this

14    statement that Mr. Stringer is referring to, the present witness said that

15    that had been the case.  So I think that was quite clear, even from the

16    cross.  Thank you.

17            JUDGE LIU:  Well, since you said that you have mentioned this

18    point in your cross-examination, so there is the right for Mr. Stringer to

19    do the re-examination on this particular point.  Let us make these things

20    clear; right?

21            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] If that is your ruling, I will

22    certainly not object to that, but it has nothing to do with the treatment

23    of prisoners themselves.  It is quite clear:  Were they executed or were

24    they taken to prison?  It is the question of their ultimate fate, not of

25    their treatment.

Page 3936

 1            JUDGE LIU:  For the benefit of this Chamber, we'll hear that

 2    re-examination.

 3            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4       Q.   Mr. Simang, I'll just put it straight to you.  You heard what

 5    counsel said, whether prisoners were taken to Ljubuski and not executed or

 6    whether prisoners were executed in Doljani.  Can you clarify that for us,

 7    please, if possible?

 8       A.   As far as I can remember, one group was executed and one group was

 9    brought to Ljubuski, in any case.  However, I have to add that I was not

10    present at the execution.  I do not know whether they were killed.  I only

11    know that they were led into this piece of wood.

12       Q.   Again, just to clarify, were you present or involved in the

13    transfer of prisoners from Doljani to Ljubuski, or did you hear about that

14    from someone else?

15       A.   In one accompaniment to a prison, I was present, but I'm not sure

16    whether this was when prisoners were brought away from Doljani.  I'm not

17    sure.  I'm sorry for that.

18       Q.   You were asked about the investigation that was conducted by the

19    German authorities.  Do you know if the events in Doljani were a focus of

20    that investigation?

21       A.   As far as I know, the Germans have not made any investigation at

22    all.  It was said during my trial that they were not able to make any

23    investigations because that was the territory of war.

24       Q.   Events that you've talked about which occurred in Mostar,

25    particularly the group of prisoners who were at the -- what you've

Page 3937

 1    described as the ministry in Mostar -- do you recall the incident

 2    involving the two people who were shot in the head?  Do you know if that

 3    incident is one that was the focus of the German investigation that they

 4    were questioning you about?

 5       A.   It's not known to me.

 6       Q.   You were asked about how many times you saw this person Praljak.

 7    Do you recall yesterday during your direct examination whether I asked you

 8    any questions about Rastani?

 9       A.   About Rastani?  It's not known to me.

10       Q.   Do you recall if I asked you questions about Rastani yesterday

11    during your direct examination?

12       A.   No, I don't know.

13       Q.   You were just some moments ago asked about your motives for

14    killing this other person named Bieske, whether you did it to have his

15    car.  Why was he killed?

16       A.   Because he had stolen weapons and goods of value from the hotel,

17    which was proven.  And I have not killed any person to get rich from

18    them.  Because you have to think, when I kill a comrade from my own unit,

19    I think this does not happen at all, because when I do this, I will be

20    dead myself five minutes later.

21       Q.   You've testified that you and your attorney in Germany hoped to

22    obtain documents from these proceedings, and I think I should ask you, if

23    you would just tell us, what documents do you have in mind?  What do you

24    hope to obtain from these proceedings?

25       A.   It is testimonies - not mine, but other people's testimony -

Page 3938

 1    elucidating the structure of command in our unit in a very clear picture.

 2       Q.   Why is that of interest to you and your attorney?

 3       A.   Since I was reproached in Germany of having committed murder and

 4    robbery.  I have never committed robbery and murder.  When I am sentenced

 5    to lifelong, when I have done this, to shoot two persons on order, I have

 6    to accept it.  But I cannot accept that I killed a person for reasons of

 7    greed or money.

 8       Q.   You were asked --

 9            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, could we go into private session for

10    just a few moments.

11            JUDGE LIU:  Do you have any particular reason for that?

12            MR. STRINGER:  Well, it relates to the circumstances of the

13    imprisonment of the witness.

14            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we'll go to the private session.

15                          [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3939











11  Page 3939 redacted.  Private session.















Page 3940












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13   English transcripts.













Page 3941

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                          [Open session]

Page 3942

 1            MR. STRINGER:

 2       Q.   Now, Witness, you were asked on the cross-examination -- it was

 3    suggested that you had travelled far and wide trying to find a militia or

 4    an army which you could join.  Do you recall that?

 5       A.   Yes, I can.

 6       Q.   And you finally did find a militia which you could join; is that

 7    correct?

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

 9            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I never said that.  I

10    repeated twice my question.  If the Prosecutor believes that the Foreign

11    Legion and the army of Croatia are self-organised units, then yes.  I

12    simply asked the question.

13            JUDGE LIU:  Well, I think it's a problem of how to rephrase this

14    issue.  Maybe it's a question of translation, but I really remember that

15    you asked this witness whether he had travelled across Europe, about these

16    things.  Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

17            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] That is not an issue.  I am listening

18    to the Croatian interpretation, but I well heard Mr. Stringer say

19    "militias," and that means vigilantes, and I never mentioned that in my

20    cross-examination nor did I mention ever any self-organised units.  I was

21    very specific, and I did say which forces -- which forces I meant, which

22    forces were in question.

23            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Stringer, would you please be more specific

24    on the terms?

25            MR. STRINGER:  Yes, I'll avoid using the word "militia."

Page 3943

 1       Q.   Mr. Simang, on cross-examination, counsel suggested that you had

 2    travelled, I think, halfway across Europe to join a military organisation,

 3    to make money to kill people.  Do you recall that?

 4       A.   Yes, I do.

 5       Q.   My question was whether you were able to find such a military

 6    organisation.

 7       A.   I wanted to join the Foreign Legion, but then I only joined the

 8    HVO first - I mean first in Croatia - and then the HVO.

 9       Q.   And as you've said, you joined the Convicts Battalion?

10       A.   Yes.  I do not know whether that's the correct name.  For me it is

11    a regular unit of the Croatian army.

12       Q.   Okay.  Let me just take a step back.  You went -- you were unable

13    to join the Foreign Legion and so then you went to Zagreb; is that

14    correct?

15       A.   Correct.

16       Q.   You were unable to join the Croatian army in Zagreb, so then you

17    went to Mostar; is that correct?

18       A.   Yes, I was sent to Mostar.  Yes.

19       Q.   And that's how you were able to join the Convicts Battalion?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Now, as a member of the Convicts Battalion, were you paid money to

22    shoot people?

23       A.   If I correctly understand your question, then it is premium bonus

24    for shooting.  This is not the case.  I got my regular monthly money no

25    matter whether he was German, any other foreigner or Croatian.  That was

Page 3944

 1    just because we were members of these units.

 2       Q.   And as a member of the unit, you engaged in shooting; correct?

 3       A.   Correct.

 4       Q.   As a member of the unit, you were involved in placing explosives

 5    at the site of the mosque?

 6            JUDGE CLARK:  Mr. Stringer, how does this arise out of

 7    clarification of cross-examination?  There is no dispute about any of

 8    this.

 9            MR. STRINGER:  You're absolutely right, Your Honour.  I think that

10    at this point I can ask one final question and finish -- you're absolutely

11    right, and I realised it as I've gone through these questions.

12       Q.   So, Mr. Simang, let me ask you this simply:  The things you've

13    talked about that you've done as a member of the Convicts Battalion, were

14    you ever punished for any of that conduct by anyone in the Convicts

15    Battalion?

16       A.   No, I was never punished.

17            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have no further

18    questions.

19            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  Any questions from the judges?  Judge

20    Clark?

21            JUDGE CLARK:  I think Judge Diarra has a lot of questions, so I

22    will go last this time.

23            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

24            Judge Diarra?

25                          Questioned by the Court:

Page 3945

 1            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Yes, I

 2    do have a number of questions.

 3            I would like to ask the witness here, after the death of their

 4    unit's commander, Cikota, it was decided to conduct an ethnic cleansing in

 5    order to avenge that death.  And General Tuta said -- could say, "No

 6    prisoners are to be taken."  Was this order carried out?  And if it was,

 7    how?  Did it mean systematically kill everybody there, or were you to make

 8    a selection?  If yes, then what were the criteria to be used?  And could

 9    you give us an idea of the number of people who were killed on that

10    occasion.

11       A.   There was no selection here.  It was just no prisoners were to be

12    made.  That's correct.  There was such an order.  And after that -- and

13    people stuck to this order.  How many people were shot in detail, I'm not

14    able to tell you.

15            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16            Mr. President, I do not have further questions.

17            JUDGE LIU:  Judge Clark?

18            JUDGE CLARK:  Thank you.  I'm afraid I have a few more questions.

19            Mr. Simang, the very last thing that you said to the Prosecutor in

20    re-examination, or very close to the last thing, about the Convicts

21    Battalion, you said that whatever it was called, that you considered it to

22    be a regular unit of the Croatian army.  Is that right?

23       A.   Yes, that's correct.

24            JUDGE CLARK:  Now, I don't know how Convicts Battalion translates

25    from English into German, because sometimes it's called the "Convicts

Page 3946

 1    Battalion," and sometimes it's translated as a "Punishment Battalion."

 2    And you've described to us how it was a fire-fighting unit, or what we

 3    might call in English, a rapid-response unit.

 4            Now, my question to you is:  However you described it -- because

 5    your description of it appears to be as a rapid-response unit that was

 6    designed to go to where the front lines had been breached.  Now, my

 7    question is:  Why did you think that the Convicts Battalion, or the

 8    whatever it was known as, was part of the Croatian army, was a regular

 9    unit of the Croatian army?

10       A.   First of all, I got my regular payment from the army; that is, not

11    that General Tuta paid it from his pocket.  This money was fetched from

12    Grude.  Then I had a regular HVO identity, which corresponds to the

13    Bosnian-Croatian army.  And thirdly, I had a patch of the HVO on my

14    uniform, quite normally, so I do think that I was a member of the regular

15    army.

16            JUDGE CLARK:  Yes.  So regular army is the legal army.  That's

17    what you mean?  It was a legal unit.

18       A.   Yes, that's what I think.

19            JUDGE CLARK:  The distinction that we might make in this Court is

20    the difference between the Bosnian-Croatian army and the Croatian army

21    from Croatia.  You're not making any such distinction, can I take it?

22       A.   Well, the difference to me is that the Croatian army is HV and the

23    Bosnian-Croatian army is the HVO.

24            JUDGE CLARK:  And you considered, therefore, if I follow through

25    on your answer, that your unit belonged to the HVO?

Page 3947












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Page 3948

 1       A.   Yes, that was also in line with the patches which were sewn to our

 2    uniforms.

 3            JUDGE CLARK:  Yes.  Now, you may not be able to answer this

 4    question, but if you can -- we have heard from several witnesses and from

 5    you reference to the name of a soldier or a commander called "Cikota."  Do

 6    you know if Cikota is a surname or a nickname?  In other words, is it a

 7    family name or a nickname?

 8       A.   As far as I know, it's the surname.  And the complete name is

 9    Mario Hrkac Cikota.

10            JUDGE CLARK:  So Cikota is a surname.  We've heard about Cikota's

11    brother, so we take it he is called Cikota, too?

12       A.   As far as I know, yes.

13            JUDGE CLARK:  And was Cikota's brother also associated with the

14    HVO or the battalion that you were in?

15       A.   Yes, as far as I know, he was also with the Convicts Battalion.

16            JUDGE CLARK:  Okay.  Do you know what his rank was?

17       A.   I do not know his exact rank, but I can say that he was an

18    officer, too.

19            JUDGE CLARK:  That brings me to my next point:  I understood you

20    to say at some stage that the Convicts Battalion didn't wear any special

21    indication of rank.

22       A.   Correct.

23            JUDGE CLARK:  How could you know an officer from a foot soldier?

24       A.   You could not differentiate when looking at the form [as

25    interpreted].  You just knew because it was written on the money list

Page 3949

 1    which you got when you got your regular payment.  On this payroll list,

 2    you had a rank written on it.  And on the Iskaznica, on the identity,

 3    there was also the rank written on.

 4            JUDGE CLARK:  I see.  So when you were paid, did you have to

 5    attend in a special place with all the units?  And did somebody read out

 6    on a roll-call each name and you went up to get your paycheck or your

 7    deutschmarks?

 8       A.   Sorry.  Whenever we had payment day, we went up to the office at

 9    the base, and there the money was paid out.  There was a list with all the

10    names written on it, and then you had to countersign that you have

11    received your money.

12            JUDGE CLARK:  And was there one list for everybody so that you

13    could each read the same list?

14       A.   Yes, on this list, there were the names of all people who were

15    members of the unit.

16            JUDGE CLARK:  I think we have been shown an exhibit.  That

17    certainly sounds like what you're describing.  And would it be from that

18    list that you would have seen the ranks beside each member of the unit?

19       A.   Yes, I have seen it with my former captain.  There was written

20    this name of Satnik, and there used to be one mix-up on his case -- in his

21    case, and that's why I know.  And on top of that, as far as the

22    designation following my name is concerned, it was bojnik, so an ordinary

23    soldier.

24            JUDGE CLARK:  I'm looking at the list and looking for your name.

25    Judge Diarra has the list.  Well, I can look at it afterwards.  I have a

Page 3950

 1    list of names here with dates of birth and rank.

 2            Yes.  You can find it.  Maybe the registrar can find it for me.

 3            And besides that list, I think you told us that you were told what

 4    people's ranks were.

 5       A.   Yeah.  When you asked for it, yes.  But in the case of General

 6    Tuta, everybody referred to him as Tuta -- as "General Tuta."

 7            JUDGE CLARK:  From your evidence, it appears that there was more

 8    than one general in this small unit.  There was also, after a while,

 9    General Andabak.

10       A.   Yes, General Andabak was promoted only very much later to be a

11    general.

12            JUDGE CLARK:  You were talking about General -- a general from

13    Zagreb.  I think his name was Praljak.  Can I take it that he was not part

14    of your unit, that he was not an officer in your unit?

15       A.   Yes, I didn't talk to him personally.

16            JUDGE CLARK:  You were describing him.  His name came up in

17    evidence in cross-examination.

18       A.   Sorry, I misunderstood you.  I talked about him, yes.

19            JUDGE CLARK:  And when you say that he was a general and you were

20    asked about it, can I take it that he was not a general from your unit?

21       A.   That's correct.

22            JUDGE CLARK:  Do you know where he was attached to or to which

23    army he was attached?

24       A.   As far as I know, to the Croatian Army HV.

25            JUDGE CLARK:  That's the Croatian Army from Croatia?

Page 3951

 1       A.   Correct.

 2            JUDGE CLARK:  Now, we've heard a lot - and it's been, as far as

 3    I'm concerned, left up in the air - about discussion or a talk show or an

 4    interview that you gave to German television, and the inference that I'm

 5    drawing from cross-examination - but it's only an inference, it may be

 6    incorrect - is that as a result of what you said on this talk show, the

 7    German investigation commenced, and you and, indeed, Mr. Mrachacz, were

 8    arrested.  Am I correct in that?

 9       A.   No, that's not correct.  I made this talk show only with the

10    agreement of General Tuta and Ivan Andabak.  And after this talk show, I

11    was normally and correctly allowed to return to Siroki Brijeg.  I was not

12    arrested or by no means molested or anything else by German authorities.

13    On the contrary, I was normally permitted to leave the country again.

14            JUDGE CLARK:  Well, you see, now, Mr. Simang, how little we

15    understand about this, that I drew that inference.  Can you tell me a

16    little bit about what you've just said, that General Tuta and Ivan Andabak

17    agreed for you to go on this show?  Can you tell me something about the

18    circumstances of this interview or talk show?

19       A.   So this Roland Will came up to us, together with one more from the

20    Hotel Park.  We just returned from an operation from Mostar, and they

21    asked us whether we had problems with German authorities, whether we would

22    be allowed to travel into Germany.  I said, "No, I have no problems.  I

23    can go to Germany at any time."

24            Then he also said that this would have to be -- I said that this

25    would have to be discussed with General Tuta, because without his consent,

Page 3952

 1    we would not be allowed to leave.  So the next morning, Ivan Andabak came

 2    to in front of the Hotel Park and he said that he had talked this matter

 3    over with General Tuta and that we were allowed to leave.  Mr. Mrachacz

 4    then said that he did not want to come along.  I do not know whether he

 5    would have had problems with German authorities, I do not know, but at any

 6    rate, this Mr. Trupp, an Austrian who was also a member of our unit, then

 7    joined me, and Mr. Mrachacz did not participate in this talk show.

 8            JUDGE CLARK:  Did I understand you correctly, a journalist was in

 9    the area either of Mostar or Siroki Brijeg and he wanted to talk to

10    members of the unit who were mercenaries?  Is that right?

11       A.   Yes.  It was mainly about Germans, because this talk show had the

12    title, subtitle, "German Soldiers on the Balkans."

13            JUDGE CLARK:  So he was only interested in talking to you because

14    of your nationality?

15       A.   Correct.

16            JUDGE CLARK:  And you very correctly established from your

17    superior officer whether you were permitted to talk about your activities

18    in the Balkans?

19       A.   I said to the reporter that he would have to clarify this matter

20    up with General Tuta.

21            JUDGE CLARK:  I see.  And did talking to these television

22    reporters or journalists involve your having to go to Germany to a studio

23    to make the programme?

24       A.   Yes.  We were taken by aircraft to Berlin.

25            JUDGE CLARK:  I see.  And then, having discussed whatever was

Page 3953

 1    discussed on that show, you came back and took up your duties again in

 2    Siroki Brijeg?

 3       A.   Yes.  I had to bring along a videotape of what I have stated

 4    there, and then I resumed my regular work again.

 5            JUDGE CLARK:  Did you give the videotape to General Tuta?

 6       A.   I do not know exactly whether I gave it to him in person or to

 7    Ivan Andabak.  At least I gave it to one of the two.

 8            JUDGE CLARK:  Was it your intention at that stage that the video

 9    would be transmitted to General Tuta?

10       A.   Yes.  There was such a condition, that I would have to bring a

11    videotape with me.  That was a condition which was agreed upon with the --

12    with this journalist.

13            JUDGE CLARK:  Did you get any feedback from either Mr. Andabak or

14    Mr. Naletilic to the effect that you had breached any of the conditions of

15    going on that show?

16       A.   I heard from others that they were pleased about my statements,

17    but I did not hear it in person from General Tuta.  I heard it from others

18    when they had looked at this video in the office.

19            JUDGE CLARK:  Were you reprimanded in any way?

20       A.   No, not at all.

21            JUDGE CLARK:  Not at all.  Now, can you remember - and I know

22    you're bad on dates, but events would, I think, stand out in your mind -

23    at the time that you went to Germany to speak on this programme, had the

24    soldier Bieske and Heinz been shot?

25       A.   As far as I can remember, Heinz had already been shot dead, but

Page 3954

 1    Bieske, not yet.

 2            JUDGE CLARK:  Now, was Heinz the soldier who was shot by your

 3    colleague, Mrachacz?

 4       A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5            JUDGE CLARK:  Now, do you know anything at all about an order

 6    relating to foreign soldiers in the unit - in other words, mercenaries in

 7    the unit - and any question of leaving the unit, deserting the unit?

 8    Specifically I want to ask you about five -- four or five British soldiers

 9    who left the unit and, as far as I understand, went to fight on the Muslim

10    side.

11       A.   Did I understand you correctly?  Did you say British?

12            JUDGE CLARK:  Yes.  They were -- you may know nothing at all about

13    this.  I'm just asking you.  First of all, we are dealing only with

14    foreign soldiers, orders relating to foreign soldiers, if they deserted.

15    And in particular, in that context, do you know anything about four or

16    five British soldiers or English soldiers who deserted to the Muslim

17    side?  There are three parts to that question.

18       A.   The first I can say, that I don't know anything about English

19    soldiers.  I only know of one Englishman who was with us.

20            And as far as your question is concerned, I can say there was an

21    order as far as deserters were concerned, but this held true for

22    everybody, not only related to German, British, or foreign soldiers.

23    Desertion meant that you would be killed, that you would be shot.  When

24    you became a member of the army, it was spelled out to you very clearly

25    and you had to sign it.

Page 3955












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Page 3956

 1            JUDGE CLARK:  Do you know anything about English soldiers or any

 2    foreign soldiers who deserted to the Muslim side?

 3       A.   Mr. Mrachacz said something to me, something had happened, but

 4    that was before my time.  There must have been some blown-up thing about

 5    it, something at the Heliodrom.  But I was not yet a member of the army in

 6    those days.

 7            JUDGE CLARK:  It may have happened, if it happened, before you

 8    came.

 9            Now, you also said in relation a couple of times to questioning,

10    or you alluded to it, that you admit that you shot two people but that it

11    wasn't your choice.  Can you explain to me what you mean by that, that it

12    wasn't your choice.

13       A.   At any authority, I admitted that I participated in killing these

14    two persons, Heinz and Bieske.  But it must be clear to everybody, when

15    I'm killing, just like that, two comrades from my own unit for the plain

16    reason that one had 30 deutschmarks in his pocket and another one a car,

17    a Skoda car, which was on top of that stolen from Austria -- so when I do

18    that, and after that, inform a general, I would hardly get the consent of

19    this general and he would say, "Yes, well done."  So if you do not have an

20    order and you shoot your own comrades, you will be automatically killed

21    and shot at.  That's clear.  So I had very clear orders as far as this is

22    concerned.  And having executed this Mr. Bieske, I reported it

23    instantaneously afterwards to General Tuta.

24            As far as the shooting of Heinz is concerned, as far as I know, he

25    wanted to desert to the Muslim army.  This order was given to

Page 3957

 1    Mr. Mrachacz.  He was the highest ranking officer, and he said that in his

 2    statement in front of the trial in Germany.  And he admitted that, too.

 3            JUDGE CLARK:  You see, you've said, Mr. Simang, that it was a very

 4    clear order.  But either you haven't been allowed the opportunity or you

 5    haven't been clear, because I would like you to clarify that.  If you

 6    received a clear order, what was the order, from whom did you receive it,

 7    and when did you receive it?

 8       A.   Mr. Bieske was suspected of having stolen things in the Hotel

 9    Park.  Amongst other things, he was said to have stolen things from

10    Mr. Niederreiter, and Mr. Niederreiter had reported that.

11            I also reported it with Mr. General Tuta.  And General Tuta had

12    clearly given the order:  If you can clearly prove to this person, he has

13    got to be shot.  And this is how we did it.  It was clearly shown because

14    money was found with him and weaponry was also found with him.

15            JUDGE CLARK:  So General Tuta gave you the order.  How long after

16    the order did you execute that order?

17       A.   Approximately two hours later.

18            JUDGE CLARK:  What disturbs me, Mr. Simang, is why you shot him in

19    the stomach.

20       A.   Well, Mr. Bieske wanted to draw his weapon, when he noticed what

21    was coming up on him.

22            JUDGE CLARK:  And in relation to Mr. Heinz, which I understand

23    happened before, who actually shot him?  Was it you or Mr. Mrachacz or

24    both of you?

25       A.   Mr. Mrachacz shot him from immediate range into his head.  And

Page 3958

 1    when we dragged him further down, I thought that I heard some moaning of

 2    this person.  But I do not know whether it was just another noise or

 3    whether it was just a moaning of the person.  At any rate, Mr. Mrachacz

 4    said, "Well, give him another shot," and that's what I then did.

 5            JUDGE CLARK:  Do you know anything about a French soldier who was

 6    shot dead and whose body was around for a while?

 7       A.   I have heard of that, but only from hearsay.  That was also before

 8    my time, and I have heard about it from Mr. Mrachacz.

 9            JUDGE CLARK:  So you know nothing about it yourself?

10       A.   No.

11            JUDGE CLARK:  Now, I think that you have described - and we find

12    it on the map - how when you were with your unit in Doljani, that you were

13    stationed at Masna Luka.  From the map, it seems to be quite a distance

14    from Doljani.  Would you agree that it was quite a distance, maybe

15    10 kilometres?

16       A.   Well, this may well be.

17            JUDGE CLARK:  Do you know why you were stationed in Masna Luka and

18    not at the HVO headquarters in Doljani?

19       A.   At Masna Luka, there was some kind of weekend houses, a few of

20    them, and we could sleep quiet comfortably.  In Doljani, there were only

21    ordinary living houses, and I think we all would not have been able to

22    stay overnight.

23            JUDGE CLARK:  It was just a question of not enough accommodation,

24    is it?

25       A.   Yes, I think that this is the case.

Page 3959

 1            JUDGE CLARK:  Now, forgive me if I ask a question that has an

 2    obvious answer, because I can't find where it is in my notes.  When you

 3    were describing a group of six or seven Muslims who were taken to a wooden

 4    house which no longer exists in a photograph and where they were

 5    mistreated, made to crawl through the mud, do you remember that occasion?

 6    Do you remember giving that evidence?

 7       A.   Yes, I do.

 8            JUDGE CLARK:  And you also described how when they were

 9    interrogated by either Mr. Andabak or General Tuta or both of them,

10    because they went into the hut?

11       A.   Correct.

12            JUDGE CLARK:  Then I think you described how some of those men

13    were taken out to the woods?

14       A.   Correct.

15            JUDGE CLARK:  And you described to us what you heard and what

16    people said to you, but you very fairly said you didn't see.  Can you

17    assist me by telling me, did the whole group of people who came to the hut

18    end up in the woods or just some of them?

19       A.   As far as I know, the entire group.

20            JUDGE CLARK:  The entire group.  In the period that you stayed

21    with the Punishment Battalion, were you ever asked to bury any bodies?

22       A.   No.

23            JUDGE CLARK:  If there were any bodies to be disposed of, do you

24    know what happened to them?

25       A.   No, nothing is known to me.

Page 3960

 1            JUDGE CLARK:  You never heard any talk about it or you never saw

 2    any soldiers with shovels?

 3       A.   As far as I know, from hearsay, most of them were set to fire when

 4    there was a very stony region where you could not bury them.  But as I

 5    said, I can only refer on hearsay.

 6            JUDGE CLARK:  Yes.  Well, now, can you cast any light on what

 7    happened to the bodies of the two members of your unit who were executed,

 8    Mr. Heinz and Mr. Bieske?

 9       A.   They were set on fire.

10            JUDGE CLARK:  Did you participate in this activity?

11       A.   Yes, I did.

12            JUDGE CLARK:  And what did you do with the remains, the bones?

13       A.   Nothing.  Left them just lying there.

14            JUDGE CLARK:  Now, the place where these woods were, where you

15    think or believe that the Muslim men were executed, was that at the fish

16    pond or a different place?  Fish farm?

17       A.   It was in the vicinity of this fish farm.

18            JUDGE CLARK:  Now, I want to bring you to another part of your

19    evidence which I'd like you to clear up for me, when you talked about a

20    number of men in front of the ministry building in Mostar.

21       A.   Yes.

22            JUDGE CLARK:  And your evidence in relation to that incident

23    involved three very startling pieces of evidence: the summary shooting of

24    a prisoner by Mr. Tuta, the summary shooting of another prisoner by

25    Mr. Andabak, and then what you believe to have been the execution of some

Page 3961

 1    other prisoners behind the building.  They were taken away and you heard

 2    shooting.

 3       A.   Yes, that's correct.  Yes, I did.

 4            JUDGE CLARK:  Did anyone explain to you why this happened, or did

 5    you just take it as being normal in a war situation?

 6       A.   Well, I was explained, since I do not know the Croatian language,

 7    that there was an imprint of a hand grenade on the finger of one of these

 8    persons.  And as I said previously, it was about boots or shoes.  That's

 9    what the explanation was which was given to me.

10            JUDGE CLARK:  Yes, you did say that.  You said that one of the men

11    was wearing military boots or shoes.  Were you given any reason at all for

12    why the other men were taken away, and you suspect - and indeed I think

13    you told us you were told - they were shot on orders?

14       A.   No, nothing was said to me.

15            JUDGE CLARK:  What did you think?  Do you know why they were

16    shot?

17       A.   No, no idea.

18            JUDGE CLARK:  I've asked you a lot of questions, Mr. Simang, and I

19    thank you very much for your cooperation.

20            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you, Judge Clark.

21            It seems to me there is no questions out of Judge Clark's

22    questions.

23            MR. STRINGER:  None from the Prosecution, Mr. President.

24            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Krsnik?

25            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Just one thing.  Have we found the

Page 3962

 1    name on the list?

 2            THE REGISTRAR:  No, we did not.

 3            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Of course, I have no

 4    further questions.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Witness, thank you very much for giving the evidence.

 6            Our special thanks will go to the German interpreters, those in

 7    the courtroom and in the booth.  It is indeed a great help to this Chamber

 8    to hear the testimony of this witness.

 9            Witness, you may leave now.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Thank you.

11                          [The witness withdrew]

12            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Stringer, do you have any documents to tender at

13    this stage?

14            MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Your Honour, we do.  Exhibit 41 is two

15    photographs of the person identified as Lija.  I believe they are already

16    in evidence as part of Binder Number 1.  We also tender what was marked as

17    Exhibit 354.1, which was the HVO identification card of the witness.  We

18    tender now the version of Exhibit 8.9 which was a photograph which the

19    witness made markings on.  These were markings at the location of the fish

20    farm.

21            JUDGE LIU:  Is it 8.9, or is it 8.8?

22            MR. STRINGER:  I thought that the witness made marks on 8.9,

23    Mr. President.  I could be wrong, but I think it was 8.9.  The witness was

24    shown 8.8, 8.9, and 8.10.  I think that only 8.9 is the one which was

25    marked on.  And it may be that 8.8 was the one that was used by the

Page 3963












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Page 3964

 1    Defence during the cross-examination.

 2            And the witness also looked at Exhibit 36, which was the redacted

 3    photograph of the various HVO military personnel.  And he also looked at

 4    Exhibits 25.5 and Exhibit 25.6 which are photos of the residence or the

 5    villa of the accused Naletilic.  But again, I believe all of those are

 6    already in evidence.  So the only new ones, I believe, are 354.1, the ID;

 7    and 8.9, as marked.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

 9            Are there any objections?  Mr. Krsnik.

10            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I object to accepting the exhibit

11    where on the photograph we see a person identified as Lija.  I don't know

12    the origins of this photograph.  If it is from the tobacco station, I

13    object.  Then you will also appreciate that I object to the photograph

14    taken out of the newspaper and that was shown to this witness as well.

15            I do not object to 8.8, and 341, the ID.  We also do not object to

16    that.

17            And now, the Defence has numerous exhibits, Your Honours.

18            JUDGE LIU:  Well, I think the documents P354.1, which is the ID of

19    the witness, and the photograph marked by the witness, that is P8.9, have

20    been admitted into the evidence.  And Madam Registrar will give each a

21    proper number.

22            THE REGISTRAR:  The admitted documents are now PP354.1, PP8.9/1.

23    And I wanted to draw your attention to PP36.  The redacted version is

24    P36 bis.  And then the witness made markings on the bis version, and that

25    is 36 bis/1.  So do you want to tender those as well?

Page 3965

 1            JUDGE LIU:  As for the photographs, P36/b and P36/b/1, as well as

 2    the P41, Mr. Krsnik, you have 30 days to submit your written objections on

 3    those two documents.

 4            Mr. Krsnik, do you have any documents to tender at this stage?

 5    Yes, please.

 6            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, and quite a few at that.

 7    19 letters, I wish to tender 19 letters that were sent by Mr. Falk Simang

 8    to different persons from the Office of the Prosecutor; 2 letters that his

 9    lawyer sent to Mr. Van Hecke.  They are all arranged in chronological

10    order here, so you can see that we sorted it out very nicely and in a very

11    logical order by date.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Do they have a number on it?

13            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No.  There is a total of 21 of them,

14    so I need 21 numbers, please.

15            JUDGE LIU:  Could we admit it in a bundle?  We will just give you

16    a number, the other numbers follow until 21.

17            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

18            JUDGE LIU:  Madam Registrar --

19            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I have been cautioned by

20    my colleagues.  It has been quite a tiring day today.  There's a total of

21    19 letters, not 21.  There will be a total of 19 in this binder.  However,

22    Your Honours, I would like it all to be a single binder because after

23    that, I would like to tender the four statements given by Mr. Simang to

24    the Office of the Prosecutor, also the statement he gave during the

25    investigation stage, which is part of criminal law, penal law, according

Page 3966

 1    to civil law.  So that is the statement given to the German police.  And I

 2    would also like to tender the complete judgment of the German court

 3    relating to the murders of Heinz and Bieske, and this was against Simang

 4    and Mrachacz.

 5            So that would be a total of 19 plus 5, that is, 24, plus the

 6    judgment, 25, and all of that could be contained in a single binder.

 7            JUDGE LIU:  Well, since this matter is very complicated,

 8    would you please submit the written lists of those documents, so we will

 9    come to that, you know --

10            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, and we will compile it all in a

11    single binder, and we can bring it in that way tomorrow.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

13            Mr. Stringer?

14            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I haven't finished.  I'm sorry.

15            JUDGE LIU:  I saw Mr. Stringer is standing, so maybe he will have

16    an objection on this issue.

17            MR. STRINGER:  Well, Mr. President, I do have an objection or at

18    least a position to take.  But perhaps it's best if I wait until counsel

19    is finished with all his exhibits.

20            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

21            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Then I should also like to tender

22    Prosecution's Exhibit Number 11, which is the photograph of the Minister

23    of Defence in Mostar which the witness did not recognise.  I should also

24    like to tender Prosecutor's Exhibit 11.18, because the witness couldn't

25    show anything at all, and a photograph from Doljani with this arrow

Page 3967

 1    pointing in the direction of the mosque.  That was Prosecutor's Exhibit

 2    P8.8.  So these will be all the exhibits which I wish to tender.  I will

 3    put them all in one binder and I will submit it to this Court as per date

 4    and number.  Thank you.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Stringer?

 6            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  First, could I ask, just

 7    so it's clear in the record, because counsel did object to the two

 8    photographs of Lija, he had a question as to the origins of the

 9    photographs, which in our view is not a pertinent question in view of the

10    fact that the witness simply identified the person in the photographs as

11    being Lija.  So that is Exhibit 41, and we would ask -- it's my

12    understanding that it's already in evidence and that those exhibits had

13    already been admitted, but perhaps the clarification could be made for the

14    record.

15            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

16            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my learned friend, the

17    Defence does not think that that is Lija.  I believe that that is

18    absolutely clear.

19            MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, I mean -- I think that that doesn't

20    necessarily affect the admissibility of the exhibit.  Counsel has every

21    means to challenge the evidence that's adduced, but I suggest that the

22    photographs ought to be admitted into evidence on the basis of this

23    witness's testimony.

24            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Well, this Trial Chamber has already made a

25    decision that P41 has been admitted into evidence.  Of course, the Defence

Page 3968

 1    counsel has the right to challenge this piece of evidence in your direct

 2    examination, if the chance comes.

 3            Yes, Mr. Stringer?

 4            MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, with respect to the Defence exhibits,

 5    Exhibit 11, which is the photograph of the Defence Ministry, again I

 6    believe it's already in evidence, we have no objection.

 7            The same goes for 11.18, the map of Mostar.

 8            And also we have no objection to 8.8 as marked by Simang during

 9    his cross-examination.

10            The letters from Simang and/or his attorney to people in the

11    Office of the Prosecutor, they are probably the same documents which we

12    disclosed to the Defence months ago, if not longer.  I just haven't seen

13    them and would appreciate an opportunity to just make sure that the

14    documents which are being tendered are the documents which are the ones I

15    have in mind.  I simply haven't had a chance to see what the Defence is

16    tendering.  I assume there will be no objection to it.

17            In terms of the statements, the four OTP statements and the one

18    German statement, this raises an issue that goes back actually to the

19    depositions which took place last summer, the question being what is the

20    purpose for which the statements are admitted and what is the purpose for

21    which the Trial Chamber will rely or consider the information contained in

22    the statements.  It's the Prosecution's view, and it's been expressed in

23    things that we have filed and written previously in respect of the

24    deposition exhibits, that if the statements are to be accepted by the

25    Trial Chamber, they are not -- the information contained in the statements

Page 3969

 1    is not substantive evidence.  It is rather something that can be

 2    considered by the Trial Chamber in terms of the credibility of the

 3    witness, whether there are inconsistencies between the statement and the

 4    testimony which the Trial Chamber heard, but that the statements itself,

 5    they don't constitute affirmative or substantive evidence that is on an

 6    equal footing with testimony of the witness in the courtroom.  And so with

 7    that, I guess, qualification, we would have no objection to their being

 8    accepted by the Trial Chamber for that purpose.

 9            Finally, in respect of the German judgement - again, I think it's

10    something that we disclosed to the Defence - I would object to it simply

11    on the grounds that I think its relevance or its probative value is not

12    terribly -- is not sufficiently strong to make it part of the evidence in

13    the case.  The witness was here and testified on cross-examination

14    extensively about the proceedings and the crimes that he was convicted of

15    in Germany, so we would object to the admission of the judgement.

16            I believe that covers all the Defence exhibits, Mr. President.

17            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  As for the document tendered by the

18    Defence counsel, I think the Exhibit P8.8, with the marks by the witness,

19    is admitted into evidence, as well as that of P11.18.

20            As for the other, documents, including the statements, the

21    judgement, the letters, Mr. Krsnik has promised me that he will submit a

22    written request, as well as all those documents in a binder.  I think it

23    is for the Trial Chamber to evaluate all this evidence, and this evidence

24    has been repeatedly quoted and questioned for this witness.

25            As for the judgement, this Trial Chamber would like to read that

Page 3970












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Page 3971

 1    judgement, and we are also expecting the written objections from the

 2    Prosecutor on this very issue.

 3            Yes, Mr. Krsnik?  We have to finish as soon as possible.

 4            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour, but if I

 5    may be allowed to say just one sentence, I listened very attentively to

 6    what Mr. Stringer took the floor to object to the evidence that he

 7    disclosed to us.  I truly cannot believe that before an international

 8    court, whose decisions are -- have greater force than national

 9    jurisdiction and have greater force because international law is above --

10    has greater force -- has greater force than any national law under all the

11    United Nations decisions, when we have such a witness, I simply cannot

12    believe that somebody is objecting to the Court getting everything that

13    concerns this witness.  Thank you very much, Your Honours.  I have nothing

14    else to say.

15            JUDGE LIU:  We are not debating this issue.  I have to apologise

16    to the interpreters and the court reporters for our late closure of this

17    sitting.  We are about 15 minutes past the time.  So the Court will

18    adjourn until 9.30 tomorrow morning.

19                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

20                          4.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

21                          the 17th day of October, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.