Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4041

1 Thursday, 18 October 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Naletilic?

9 THE ACCUSED NALETILIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE LIU: How are you feeling this morning?

11 THE ACCUSED NALETILIC: [Interpretation] Tomorrow, I should be

12 examined at 2.00. They should take an image here behind. I don't know

13 how it is called.

14 JUDGE LIU: Did you see the physicians yesterday afternoon?

15 THE ACCUSED NALETILIC: [Interpretation] Yes. No, actually, I saw

16 the physician's assistant. She said that that feeling that I had was not

17 good and that tomorrow they will attempt to have an appointment to have a

18 scan made. The feeling is the same here. There is no pain in my heart

19 area, but I have no strength here. I have no -- I had problem buttoning

20 my jacket five days ago. That was all right. I have a feeling that it

21 has something to do with my heart. There may be clogging of some kind. I

22 don't know.

23 JUDGE LIU: We wish you a speedy recovery. If there is any

24 problem with your health, please do not hesitate to let us know.

25 THE ACCUSED NALETILIC: [Interpretation] Well, right now I feel all

Page 4042

1 right, as far as my heart is concerned. It's almost a miracle. But it's

2 all right. That is the condition. I will be examined tomorrow. Right

3 now I can take these -- the rigour of the hearing.

4 JUDGE LIU: Please sit down, please.

5 Yes, Mr. Scott?

6 MR. SCOTT: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. I just

7 wanted to say, and I assume the Chamber would want to hear concerning

8 Mr. Naletilic this morning before the witness came in. I also felt the

9 need to respond very briefly to a couple of things and make one

10 clarification of the schedule.

11 Mr. President, you indicated yesterday afternoon that perhaps this

12 current witness, Mr. Smajkic, might have been called earlier in the case.

13 I think just so it's clear, the record should indicate he was in fact

14 called earlier in the case. He was here in the second week of trial.

15 Because at the Registry's request - and I'm not talking about the registry

16 in the courtroom - but because of the Registry's request that Mr. Mrachacz

17 be taken out of turn, the schedule was -- there were problems in the

18 schedule. Mr. Smajkic was here and sat here in The Hague for one week,

19 waiting to testify. We could not get to him. He had to go back to

20 Bosnia, so this is his second time here. So we did attempt to call him at

21 an earlier time.

22 Having said that, Your Honour, I do want to indicate I don't want

23 to encourage any thinking, of course, that we are only calling all of our

24 most important witnesses at the beginning of the case. I can assure you

25 that we believe, of course, that all of our witnesses are important, or we

Page 4043

1 wouldn't call them at all, and we do expect some important witnesses to be

2 called at the very end of the case. So we are trying to present the case

3 to you, perfectly or imperfectly - the latter, I'm sure - as efficiently

4 and effectively as we can. I can assure the Chamber that every effort is

5 being made to do that. We will stumble and fall sometimes, but we are

6 trying to make our best efforts to do that.

7 In that regard, I also need to announce that because, again, of

8 the schedule problem yesterday afternoon, one of our witnesses has been

9 cancelled and is not in The Hague and will be skipping the witness who

10 will be listed -- Jeremy Bowen, who will be listed after this witness.

11 I'm not going to announce the next witness name because we are in open

12 session, but everyone who has the schedule will be able to see that the

13 witness who follows Mr. Bowen will be the next witness following

14 Mr. Smajkic. We will be skipping Mr. Bowen, and here, again, he will have

15 to be worked into the schedule at some future time.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Are you ready for your witness?

17 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would just

21 like to use the opportunity before the witness comes back. I have a

22 request for the Trial Chamber and also for our learned friends. No one

23 could foresee the incidents of yesterday, and I believe that health

24 concerns are something that we should all feel the same about. But the

25 Defence finds itself in a difficult position simply because the witnesses

Page 4044

1 are testifying out of turn. If we have a witness that the Defence is not

2 aware of the changes, we will have problems in cross-examination. And I

3 would just like to ask for as much notice as is possible in calling of

4 witnesses so that we can prepare properly. Thank you.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, what happened yesterday is quite extraordinary.

6 I hope you can understand the difficulties from the other side for

7 rescheduling of the witness.

8 Yes, could we have the witness, please.

9 [The witness entered court]


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

13 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

14 JUDGE LIU: Please remember that you are still under the solemn

15 declaration.

16 Yes, Mr. Scott. You may proceed.

17 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Examined by Mr. Scott: [Continued]

19 Q. Mr. Smajkic, just to set the scene a bit since yesterday midday,

20 you had told us that you had approached the Catholic bishop in Mostar to

21 go with you -- to accompany you to a military position in your clerical

22 clothing and destroy -- take down sandbags as a symbolic act against the

23 war, for peace. Is that correct?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. And unfortunately, you did not receive a favourable response from

Page 4045

1 anyone on the Croat side; is that correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Now, I'm going to take you to the day of the 9th of May, 1993.

4 And I would like to start, please -- can you just give us - being mindful

5 of the desire to be somewhat brief - would you just give us your account

6 of what happened, what you saw and heard and what happened to you on the

7 9th of May, 1993.

8 A. On 9th of May, 1993, in the early morning hours, I could hear

9 heavy artillery fire and also firing from all kinds of other weapons. And

10 so there was thunderous fire all around at the same time. Because I live

11 near the line of separation, the present-day line of separation, near my

12 house a river of people passed by, men, women, children, in their pyjamas,

13 and they were moving in a direction of the eastern part of town. The fire

14 was intense. People's hearts were freezing with the apprehension of what

15 may happen. It was truly like hell.

16 Q. Where were you at this time?

17 A. I was at my home.

18 Q. Where did you live in Mostar at that time?

19 A. That is exactly on the Bulevar. This is the current line of

20 separation in the city. However, I worked -- that is, my office was far

21 into the western section of town. But that night, I was at home.

22 Q. When you say that you saw a river of people passing by, moving in

23 the direction of the eastern part of town, can you give us a bit more of

24 an idea of how many -- what did this river consist of? Approximately how

25 many people did you see moving toward the east part of town?

Page 4046

1 A. This was accompanied by shrieks and screams and fire. There was

2 an underpass under the main road where people were being directed by fire,

3 literally by bullets, into this canal where the people were supposed to

4 pass towards -- in the eastern section of town. In other words, this fire

5 was directed, and the people were almost stampeded towards the eastern

6 section of town by my house.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

8 MR. MEEK: Your Honours, I must object. The answer is

9 non-responsive. The question was very simple. Could he answer how many

10 he saw. We have gone into six or seven lines, and he is still describing

11 the scene, not giving the answer to the question, which is the number of

12 people he observed. Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: In this point, I agree with you, but the witness

14 describes a very vivid picture of what happened that morning. We feel

15 very interested in hearing this witness on this situation. But the

16 question is really how many people.

17 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Smajkic, let me go back, please, to that part of my question,

19 excepting everything else you have said. Can you give us an idea of how

20 many people did you see moving in the direction of the eastern part of

21 town, as you've described it? Not in a precise number, but 10, 15, 50,

22 100, thousands?

23 A. It is not possible to say that precisely because this was a column

24 of people, people - men, women, children - pyjamas, who were roused from

25 their beds and left their homes in order to save their lives. There must

Page 4047

1 have been at least a hundred. I saw them. I saw them. They passed by my

2 house. Basically they just brushed against a wall of my house. I didn't

3 count them. In addition, the fire was continuous. You could only peek

4 out, because you ran a risk of being hit by a bullet yourself.

5 Q. Did you know at that time or did you come to know that in addition

6 to the people that you saw moving in the direction of the east part of the

7 city, that other Bosniaks were being taken to other places?

8 A. I learned from some of these people whom I recognised, who dropped

9 in to take a drink of water, that some people were being taken towards the

10 stadium.

11 Q. Now, did you hear about this time or did you learn about that time

12 that a particular Muslim church official, an imam, I believe you described

13 yesterday, that an imam was killed on the 9th or 10th of May?

14 A. No. That was not at that time. That was the next day. That was

15 the next day. Because I was unable to move about. I waited for the

16 nightfall to cross the Neretva River, because I live on the right bank on

17 the other side of Neretva, so I needed to wait for the nightfall to cross

18 over and make inquiries stealthily so that I could be safe.

19 Q. Let me reverse the order, then, of my questions. Let's finish

20 with what you just began telling us and then go back to the question about

21 the imam. What happened on the 9th in terms of this: Did you stay in

22 your house or did you at some point move to another location?

23 A. I stayed that night, stayed on late. Later on, they looked for

24 me. They wondered whether I had been captured by the HVO. I simply could

25 not budge, I could not step out, because of all the fire that was raging.

Page 4048

1 If I can be -- if I can describe it graphically, one of my neighbours in

2 the house next to me -- let me say that this line, the line of separation,

3 was already being established there. The ABiH was -- had already set up

4 positions there, and there was no movement forward there. And one of the

5 neighbours took something to -- some food to those who had been fortifying

6 these positions there at that time, and he was wounded. He had some food

7 in his hand. He was only going to cross the street, and he was unable to

8 make it across.

9 Q. Please tell us what happened to you and how you then moved to

10 wherever it is that you went after leaving your house?

11 A. Our headquarters, our command, the ABiH command, was inquiring

12 whether I was alive or not, because rumours were spreading then. One of

13 the imams who had been captured and -- by the HVO, and I lived nearby, so

14 they wanted me to come and confirm that. They wanted me to simply appear

15 there, because we needed -- they needed to put together some announcement,

16 public announcement. That night, when I finally made it there, I learned

17 about this case of my colleague who lived deeper into their territory.

18 They captured him, and then that same day they executed him.

19 Q. All right. And I'm going back to my question now. Where did you

20 go after leaving your house on the Bulevar? How did you get there?

21 A. I went to the ABiH command post.

22 Q. Did you stay there continuously, then, throughout the siege, or

23 where did you live after this?

24 A. No. I went there because Mr. Pasalic, Mr. Arif Pasalic, the

25 commander of our corps, had gone several days before to negotiate a

Page 4049












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Page 4050

1 cease-fire with the HVO.

2 Q. I'm going to cut you off. We do have to move forward. Please

3 listen to my question. I must say you're not answering my question at

4 this point. You lived -- your house was on the Bulevar?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You left your house sometime, if I understand you correctly - if

7 I'm wrong, please correct me - sometime on the evening of the 9th. You

8 were able to move to the -- an ABiH headquarters or field base to assist

9 in some way. Now, after that happened, did you return to your house on

10 the Bulevar and did you live there, then, throughout the siege of East

11 Mostar, or did you go some place else? That's my question.

12 A. I went back to my house.

13 Q. And then how long did you continue to live at your house?

14 A. I was there for several days. I had an elderly father and my

15 family, and the line of separation was being fortified there, so I went to

16 Donja Mahala, which is about 300 metres down towards the Hum hill.

17 Q. Were you stopped by anyone on your way to this new location in

18 Donja Mahala?

19 A. By the time I was -- it was discovered that I was there, the line

20 had been set up there, so I found myself sort of like in neutral, no man's

21 land. But later on, the forces of ABiH led me out late at night. It was

22 almost the morning when they led me out and took me to the headquarters.

23 Q. All right. Now, let's go back to the imam. Was there an imam

24 named Salem Mezit who you learned was killed on around the 9th or 10th of

25 May, 1993?

Page 4051

1 A. Yes. That was the imam that we were referring to.

2 Q. And can you just tell the Chamber what happened to this Imam

3 Mezit?

4 A. He was simply executed in front of his house.

5 Q. And did you learn or were you told by who he was executed?

6 A. Later on, we inquired through the Red Cross. It was sometime

7 later, we wanted to find out the truth. But the people who were moving

8 from the west side to the east saw him being led away from his house.

9 This is deeper into the west side from where I lived. So this mass of

10 people, this crowd, observed that he was taken out, separated from the

11 crowd, and immediately executed on the spot.

12 Q. Can you describe for us, a bit more, if you can, by location or

13 street, the approximate location where Mr. Mezit was killed.

14 A. It is exactly across from the Catholic church's convent, 200 or

15 300 metres away.

16 Q. Is this a neighbourhood or suburb called Podhum?

17 A. Yes, that's correct, Podhum.

18 Q. Did you ever speak with the imam's wife who may have told you more

19 of what happened?

20 A. She told me that several nights before, in anticipation of this

21 attack, several -- that is, he and several men went to their relatives in

22 the eastern section of town fearing what might happen. So that night, he

23 went back and spent the night there. And this, I guess, is what was meant

24 to happen.

25 Q. Let me direct your attention --

Page 4052

1 MR. SCOTT: If the witness could be - if he doesn't have it

2 still - the packet of exhibits from yesterday. Mr. Usher, there's a

3 binder of exhibits, please.

4 Q. If you can turn to -- in fact, it will be the one that we left off

5 from yesterday. If you can find, please -- it should be about halfway

6 through the bundle, Exhibit P410, which is a letter from you and one other

7 person on the 23rd of May, 1993. Do you have that?

8 A. Yes, I see.

9 Q. Can you just tell the Chamber what that document is and how it

10 relates to what you've just been telling us about.

11 A. This relates to the fact that from the HVO, from the person in

12 charge of medical matters, we received information that certain persons,

13 including Salem Mezit, the imam, were in the hospital. And we were asked

14 to come in order to identify these persons. In fact - and this was

15 strange - Salem Mezit was described as a member of the army of Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina.

17 Q. To your knowledge, was that true? Was he a member of the army of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 A. No. In fact, I do know that he was not a member of the army of

20 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21 Q. Let me briefly stop you for a moment. We touched on this

22 yesterday, but you described Mr. Mezit as a imam. Was he local, like a

23 neighbourhood or some sort of local Islamic church leader? What was his

24 position or role?

25 A. He was the imam of a particular mosque in the city of Mostar, and

Page 4053

1 also of a neighbourhood in Mostar, a neighbourhood which we term "Mahala"

2 in the city. So that is his activities in the mosque, certain services

3 including weddings, births, and other religious ceremonies.

4 Q. Are you able to give us the name of the particular mosque that he

5 was associated with?

6 A. That was the Dervis Pasha mosque, which is now non-existent. It

7 was destroyed.

8 Q. Do you know when that mosque was destroyed?

9 A. The mosque had been partially damaged during the Serbo-Chetnik

10 aggression. It was shelled. But then it was completely destroyed when

11 the HVO attacked.

12 Q. When you say when the HVO attacked, was it destroyed in connection

13 with the 9th and 10th of May, 1993, or sometime after that?

14 A. Yes. Yes, on that date.

15 Q. All right. Just so the record is clear, you are saying it was

16 destroyed on the 9th or 10th of May?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, your letter, which is Exhibit P410, also goes on to say --

19 before I ask you one or two questions, just to finish --

20 A. Excuse me, may I, just in regard of this letter, before we --

21 Q. We're not finished with it. Go ahead, please.

22 A. We had asked from the Red Cross to be allowed to visit other

23 locations because we had learned that in this campaign, several imams had

24 been taken prisoners and that several mosques had been destroyed. So this

25 is why we gave certain names and certain locations, in Capljina, Stolac,

Page 4054

1 and the west side of the city. And you can see here that my archives in

2 my office in the western part of town had been seized. So through the Red

3 Cross, I asked to be allowed to take my archives and the archive of the

4 Islamic community offices in Mostar. However, to this date, this request

5 has not been met.

6 And I think that -- I wanted to mention that because that is also

7 something that is referred to in this letter.

8 Q. All right. Let me just ask you a final question on this letter.

9 Were you, then, ever - at that time - given the opportunity to make the

10 requested inquiry concerning the Imam Salem Mezit or concerning the other

11 properties mentioned in your letter?

12 A. They never responded to this letter, nor did they send any verbal

13 message back to us.

14 Q. Mr. Smajkic, I'm going to ask you just a couple -- just a few

15 questions about the time -- during the time that Mostar was under what

16 some might describe as a siege. Was there a sniping campaign against the

17 Muslims in the east side of Mostar and do you know, and can you tell the

18 Chamber, based on your observations, were civilians targeted during that

19 sniping?

20 A. Anything that could move -- to put it simply, anything that could

21 move was a target of sniper attacks; that is to say, civilians, animals.

22 For example, even later, in the neighbourhood in the Mahala, I saw them

23 targeting goats, sheep, anything that could move; civilians included, of

24 course.

25 Q. Were you ever, in fact, in close proximity to someone who was hit

Page 4055

1 by sniper fire?

2 A. Yes. Yes. Very often, we would have to run across on

3 crossroads. We had to make certain protective barriers so that we could

4 run across the street and avoid being hit by sniper fire. On one

5 occasion, as we were running across the street, one of the people who was

6 with me was hit in the leg, although there was a kind of protective

7 barrier camouflaged in a way. But he was hit, nevertheless.

8 This did not really provide for a safe passage, and it was a

9 pretty primitive protection. But often I was in the hospital, in the

10 hospital where I saw civilians who were being treated. I didn't see when

11 they were actually hit, but I would see them in hospital receiving

12 treatment, and I heard that they were hit while crossing the street.

13 Therefore, the municipal government that had just been established then -

14 established from scratch, because the entire infrastructure was in the

15 western part of town, so some kind of organisation had to be set up very

16 fast - and these authorities --

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

18 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I must object again to the

19 non-responsiveness of this answer. The question again appears to be

20 fairly simple. Yes, yes, he answered it. He gave the example. And now

21 he's just aimlessly babbling. And I object to the way this is being

22 answered.

23 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I object to the characterisation of the

24 witness babbling. It may or may not be a longer answer than counsel would

25 like, but it is not appropriate to refer to the witness as babbling, and I

Page 4056

1 object.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, we believe that the answer is just to the

3 question, but it's just a little bit too long. And the question is very

4 simple: Did you see someone who was hit by sniper fire? It's a very

5 simple question.

6 Mr. Scott, you may proceed.


8 Q. Now, let me go back to that particular incident. I appreciate the

9 information about the hospitals, and I do believe it's relevant for this

10 Chamber to hear, but let me go back to the person that you were with at

11 the time that you said he or she - and you haven't told us whether it was

12 a he or she - but was hit by sniper fire. First of all, was this -- you

13 don't have to use the person's name, if you think you would prefer not to

14 identify him, at least in my view - counsel may have a different view -

15 but who was this person that was with you, just by description? Was it a

16 relative? Just a friend? Can you just tell us a bit more about the

17 person who was struck?

18 A. That is a man. My wife's uncle, as a matter of fact, to be as

19 brief as possible.

20 Q. And can you tell the Chamber, at the time that he was struck, to

21 your knowledge -- first of all, was he -- as far as you know, was he a

22 civilian?

23 A. A civilian invariably. Never put a uniform on.

24 Q. And my next question is: At the moment he was struck, was he

25 wearing civilian clothes?

Page 4057

1 A. He was wearing normal, civilian clothes.

2 Q. Let's move on. I've talked to you now about sniping, in terms of

3 with what people might consider to be rifle fire. Was there also a

4 campaign that involved artillery or mortar shelling of East Mostar?

5 A. All calibres were used in the shelling, incessantly, day and

6 night, and also unselectively; that is to say, everything was being

7 destroyed, monumental buildings of historic importance, private homes, the

8 hospital. To put it simply, as people were being targeted, buildings and

9 all other edifices were being fired at, shelled, from all possible

10 weapons.

11 Q. Very briefly, can you tell the Chamber were there any civilian

12 gatherings that you remember, either particular -- by particular incident

13 or just the nature of the gatherings themselves, that were targeted, that

14 were shelled, to your knowledge?

15 A. I can point out that gatherings were also targeted, any kind of

16 gathering.

17 Q. Such as?

18 A. I can particularly emphasise that because of the fact that we

19 lived in a town without any water supply. Water comes from the western

20 part of town, and the water supply was cut off, and therefore, we used

21 cisterns. We took water from the Neretva River, and we went into the

22 small streets, alleys, where people waited for water to be given to them

23 from this cistern and put into smaller vessels. When people would find

24 out that the water cistern was coming in, a generator would be turned on

25 so that water could actually come out of the cistern. The HVO soldiers

Page 4058












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Page 4059

1 heard the engines, heard the generators, and then they would actually aim

2 at such a group of people, at such a gathering. That happened all the

3 time.

4 MR. MEEK: [Microphone not activated]

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, I think this witness is just telling

6 the story how those gatherings were hit by the shellings.

7 MR. MEEK: Your Honours, my point is simply this: That the

8 question asked, does he know whether or not any gatherings were targeted.

9 I think that any answer is speculation because any gathering that might

10 have been hit could very easily have been accidental. This witness, not

11 being from the other army, and being a civilian, would have no idea as to

12 whether anything was targeted. For example, we know --

13 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek, that's a very strange objection. Very, very

14 strange.

15 MR. MEEK: It calls for speculation. What's strange, Your

16 Honour? I'm sorry.

17 JUDGE LIU: Why is it speculation?

18 MR. MEEK: How would he know if any location was specifically

19 targeted or if it was accidentally hit by an accident? For example --

20 JUDGE LIU: No, no. No matter whether is purposely targeted or

21 accidentally hit, but they are hit by the shellings. That's the truth,

22 and this witness knows those things happened.

23 MR. MEEK: Thank you.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?

25 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, very briefly, there are at least two ways

Page 4060

1 in which this is extremely relevant to the overall case and for this

2 Chamber to know some of the things that happened in Mostar, in which these

3 accused also carried out, as charged in the indictment, various acts:

4 There was either indiscriminate sniping and shelling in which there was no

5 regard who they were shooting at, which we submit is itself a war crime,

6 indiscriminate fire. Or there was intentional targeting of civilians,

7 which itself is a war crime. Either way a crime was committed, if we are

8 able to prove that. That's one of the reasons this evidence is relevant.

9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, I have to stop you. Here you are just to

10 make clear what the facts are, not the law.

11 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, but I do have to respond when

12 counsel makes an objection to speculation and relevance, as to why it is

13 in fact proper evidence.

14 JUDGE LIU: This Trial Chamber has already made the rulings. You

15 just abide by the rulings and proceed with your direct examination.

16 MR. SCOTT: Very well, Your Honour.

17 Q. Did you -- you've used the word "cistern," which -- what do you

18 mean by "cistern," because it seems to be a word that my past experience

19 has not -- a word that not many of us would use? Are you talking about a

20 cistern being a well in the ground, or what was it that was moving this

21 water around that you were telling us about?

22 A. It's like a fire-fighting vehicle actually. But it's like a water

23 truck. It carries water. And then this water that is pumped into this

24 truck is then distributed throughout town.

25 Q. All right. So now when you go back to your testimony now a few

Page 4061

1 minutes ago, would you pick up, then, and tell us, before the

2 interruption, when was it that the HVO fire would start in this regard?

3 A. I said quite precisely, and I want to say this clearly and

4 unequivocally, it was not only once that this happened. Whenever these

5 water trucks that were providing water - because there were no operating

6 waterworks. This water truck moved through town, and it was seeking

7 shelter behind buildings so that it would not be a target for the HVO, so

8 the HVO could not hit it with their fire. Then people, women, children,

9 usually came there with canisters and different vessels in order to get

10 some water from the truck and to take it home. I personally was a

11 witness. My young daughter was present when other people were hit.

12 Q. All right, I think we can proceed beyond this now. Apart from the

13 water -- the distribution of water - and I do want to conclude on this

14 part of your testimony, sir - were there any other public gatherings,

15 types of public gatherings during your experience, the months that you

16 were in Mostar during this time, were targeted either for rifle fire,

17 artillery fire, what have you? For instance, just to move us, funerals.

18 A. I have already said that any movement was highly risky. I don't

19 know whether that existed anywhere in the world, this kind of

20 administration that was created so fast on the other side. And the

21 administration imposed a curfew. People were not allowed to move about

22 during the day, in daytime. There were also other gatherings that took

23 place, and that is funerals, when the dead were being buried.

24 Q. And what would happen at that time?

25 A. Again, because we were the target of attacks, because these deaths

Page 4062

1 occurred every day, we could not conduct funerals at the same time every

2 day. We tried to conceal this from the enemy, and usually this was done

3 during the night with very few people present in order to avoid the risk

4 of someone being killed or injured.

5 Q. Now, I want you to go forward, please, and look at the next --

6 again, I'm going to ask you to look at the next couple of exhibits as a

7 group. If you can direct your attention, please, and familiarise yourself

8 so you know what you're looking at. Exhibit 422, 421, 425 -- excuse me --

9 462.1.

10 Can you tell the Chamber, please, are all these letters or

11 correspondence that you were involved in raising various issues and

12 concerns either to the international community or through the

13 international representatives in the area or directly to leaders of the

14 HVO or the Croat side?

15 A. What we lived through in Mostar was a catastrophe. We simply

16 wanted the world to know. We wanted to find some compassion, a trace of

17 compassion that would bring goodness to the fore, so that the shelling and

18 killing of people would be condemned, and that is why we protested to the

19 bishop. We asked him to visit us. We asked Cardinal Kuharic to visit us

20 from Croatia, and also Bishop Puljic from Sarajevo. We also asked the

21 international community for protection because this simply went beyond our

22 possibilities of ...

23 Q. Mr. Smajkic, I'm sorry, but I think we'll have to let, to some

24 extent, the letters to speak for themselves. But let me ask you a couple

25 questions -- or one or two questions about each one.

Page 4063

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Exhibit 422, an invitation to leaders of the local Catholic

3 church. My question to you is very simple, and please respond: Did those

4 persons ever, in fact, come to East Mostar and assist you in the way that

5 you requested?

6 A. They didn't come. We did not get any answer.

7 Q. If you look at Exhibit P421, the next in the bundle, which, for

8 the record, it makes, again, a reference to the killing of Salem Mezit in

9 the first sentence of the text itself, did you receive any satisfactory

10 response from the HVO leadership to this letter dated the 29th of May,

11 1993?

12 A. We did not get any answer.

13 Q. Let me direct your attention to 425. In this letter, I think just

14 to make --

15 MR. SCOTT: I'll do this as quickly as possible, Mr. President.

16 Q. In the first paragraph, you were requesting -- this is a letter

17 directed to Mr. Petkovic and Mr. J. Topic. Is that signed by you? It is

18 signed by you, is it not?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Directing your attention, and the courtroom's attention, to the

21 first paragraph, is it accurate to say that this was a letter to some of

22 the Bosnian-Croat leaders to allow some Muslim holidays, Islamic holidays,

23 to be observed with some measure of peace, or at least a cease-fire. Is

24 that correct?

25 A. Correct.

Page 4064

1 Q. And can you tell the Chamber, please, did the HVO, in fact, agree

2 to either a ceasing or lessening of hostile activities at that time, or

3 what happened?

4 A. I can say to you - and you have probably noticed by now, having

5 followed what I said - that we simply tried to take any kind of action in

6 order to reduce fire or to bring about a total cease-fire. Since the

7 great Muslim holiday of Bajram was about to start on the 1st of June, we

8 availed ourselves of that opportunity to send an appeal to the

9 international community, and especially the military forces - that is to

10 say, the military command and also to Mr. Topic, as the representative of

11 the administration - to have at least a temporary cease-fire then so that

12 the believers could spend the Bajram holiday in a dignified manner.

13 We went even further and suggested that those three or four days

14 that we would have for the holidays could, perhaps, help extend the

15 cease-fire beyond those three or four days of holiday. That was our

16 suggestion. However, unfortunately, it was not only that there was no

17 cease-fire, but the fire became even more intensive. That was the

18 response we got.

19 Q. And finally, for these purposes, on 462.1, this is a letter - and

20 apologising for the quality of the copy of the last portions of the

21 letter - but is this a letter that was sent by you that was, in fact, to

22 be communicated to the Pope through the Spanish Battalion?

23 A. Yes. I was in contact with the Spaniards who were in

24 Medjurgorje. And they said that it was possible for them to convey that

25 letter of mine to that particular address.

Page 4065

1 May I, Your Honours, remind you that at the beginning of 1993, I

2 called on the Pope. I was received by him, together with the bishop, and

3 I was told that I should do -- people were telling me that I should do

4 anything to make this stop. So I remembered that, and I reminded him that

5 I was on a mission -- on a good mission of peace when I went to see him,

6 and I hoped that this appeal would reach him and that it would be of

7 mutual benefit, something to that effect.

8 Q. Let me just briefly direct your attention to the part on the cover

9 sheet, if you will, the second page of the letter itself, about the middle

10 of that document -- excuse me, that page. And just to move to the next

11 part of your testimony, in addition to the killing of Salem Mezit, were

12 you also bringing to the Pope's attention the mistreatment of other

13 Islamic clerics, as well as civilians, and the destruction of mosques?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. In that regard, then, putting the letter aside, moving forward,

16 can you tell the Chamber, during this -- roughly this period of time, this

17 April, May, June 1993 time period, what was -- to your knowledge, what was

18 happening to many of the local Islamic officials, imams, that sort of

19 thing? What was happening to them?

20 A. All the imams who were reached by the HVO forces were taken

21 prisoner. Those who managed to save themselves in this exodus managed to

22 get away. But all of those who were captured, some were even killed. I

23 know that 12 were taken prisoner. 12 imams were taken prisoner, and they

24 were kept in camps for a month or two, three, nine months, up to a year,

25 as a matter of fact.

Page 4066

1 Q. All right.

2 A. I beg your pardon. I can say that these are imams who were in the

3 territory of Herzegovina; that is to say, Capljina, Stolac, Mostar.

4 However, also, the Mufti of the Tuzla region, a high Islamic official,

5 should be added to that. Even before May, in April, he was taken prisoner

6 by the HVO, and he was kept in prison for six months, and he was exchanged

7 for some other persons.

8 Q. All right. I'm going to come back to this in just a moment. Let

9 me go back for a moment to a couple of other documents before we move on.

10 If I can, in the -- next in the bundle, you should have 467.2 and 476.1.

11 And I think I'm just going to simply ask you, 467.2, is that a letter from

12 the Catholic Bishop in Mostar to you, dated the 19th of June, 1993?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. And Exhibit 476.1, is that a letter written by you to the Catholic

15 Bishop, dated the 24th of June, 1993, and is that essentially in response

16 to the letter which is 467.2?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm just going to leave those letters

19 to speak for themselves.

20 Q. Now, concerning the imams, you said there were approximately at

21 least 12 that you knew to be detained.

22 MR. SCOTT: If I can have the usher's assistance--

23 A. Correct.

24 MR. SCOTT: -- could the witness be shown, and also distributed in

25 the courtroom, please, what's been marked as P882?

Page 4067












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Page 4068

1 Q. Mr. Smajkic, is it fair to say -- be transparent about this, in

2 order to present this as efficiently as possible in the courtroom and to

3 avoid the spelling of many names for the record -- I asked you to provide

4 me a list of these 12 imams. And is the list that's now been placed in

5 front of you, P882, a list of those 12 imams that you've been telling us

6 about in the last few minutes?

7 A. That's the list.

8 Q. And the information in the right column, is that -- does that

9 indicate essentially their area of religious responsibility, or where they

10 were located?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Touching on a few more of -- on this same topic, but a person not

13 on this list -- yes, please?

14 A. Excuse me, there is a mistake. Number ten, Asim Smajkic. "K," is

15 -- should be deleted. It's not Smajkic. It's Smajic, without a "K."

16 Q. Thank you very much. Now, going on, beyond this list of 12 imams

17 who were imprisoned during this time, did -- directing your attention to

18 an imam named Musan Becirevic, can you tell the Chamber what happened to

19 him?

20 A. This is a retired imam who was cruelly and brutally killed in the

21 mosque in which he lived. He is not on this list. He was captured at

22 home, and they did different things with him. They demonstrated all kinds

23 of things on him. They made him kneel, and they killed him in such a way,

24 in the mosque itself.

25 Q. Let me ask you - and I've been a bit delinquent in the last few

Page 4069

1 minutes - when you talked about the 12 imams being imprisoned or detained,

2 who, to your knowledge, were they imprisoned or detained by? Of course,

3 I'm not asking you for individual names, but by what group or organisation

4 were these imams detained or imprisoned?

5 A. The armed forces of the HVO, the HVO police.

6 Q. And concerning the -- Imam Becirevic, who was it that killed him

7 in the mosque -- in his mosque?

8 A. Those were the armed units who at that time, during that

9 offensive, which had started on the 9th of May, had expelled the Muslim

10 peoples. Some were taken to the camps, some were expelled to the other

11 side of the river, and some were killed.

12 Q. The armed units of what organisation or group?

13 A. I don't know that. They were the HVO armed forces.

14 Q. Let me mention to you another name - excuse me - and he is

15 number 1 on the list that you provided to us a moment ago. Can you tell

16 us what happened very briefly to Zlomuzica - excuse me for that - number 1

17 on the list? My apologies.

18 A. Yes. That was a man who, along with several of other people, had

19 fled to the woods when the attack had begun, and even the newspapers in

20 Croatia reported that there was an imam who had fled to the hills and who

21 had some armed unit with him, and who was a threat to that order that was

22 to be built, according to the HVO.

23 So they organised a real posse. They went after him, and they

24 found him in the forest. Then they took him to the camp, and he

25 experienced terrible brutality and torture. All his teeth were knocked

Page 4070

1 out. He has no teeth left now. And this was done with either a handle of

2 either a hoe or a shovel. He was beaten with that handle all over his

3 body. They hung him from -- by the feet, and he was tortured in that

4 position. He still is suffering consequences of this brutal mistreatment.

5 Q. Just one further question on that: You said there were reports in

6 the papers in Croatia that he was somehow involved with an armed unit in

7 the hills. Can you tell us whether or not, to your knowledge, was that

8 true? Was he leading an armed unit in the hills?

9 A. He took shelter in the woods with civilians, but propaganda turned

10 him into a commander of an armed unit, and then they went after him to

11 capture him, and they exacted a revenge on him. This was reported in the

12 newspapers.

13 Q. Let me next turn your attention to another imam named Kasim

14 Mezit. Do you know, in the course of your professional duties as the

15 Mufti of Mostar, one of your imams called Kasim Mezit? Sir?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And is it correct -- so the Chamber will know, is it correct that

18 unfortunately Mr. Mezit died approximately ten months ago?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Have you, through various inquiries of your own, including

21 speaking with his wife, learned what happened to Mr. Mezit, or one of the

22 things that happened to Mr. Mezit, around this time?

23 A. They all believe that he died as a result of torture in the camp

24 and of the consequences of what he had gone through during his capture. I

25 personally saw him on a number of times. He had to be under constant

Page 4071

1 medical care. He had a problem with his back. His backbone was injured,

2 and he had to go to rehabilitation, and he often complained about his

3 ailments.

4 Q. Mr. Smajkic, what I'm going to ask you about, I should have also

5 asked you. You mentioned his wife. And were you in fact also, as you've

6 just told us now, in close communication with Mr. Mezit while he was still

7 alive?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Now, please listen to my question and answer this question: Did

10 Mr. Mezit tell you anything that happened to him around the 7th of May,

11 approximately, 1993?

12 A. Yes, he did.

13 Q. Tell the Chamber, please, what Mr. Mezit told you happened to

14 him.

15 A. Mr. Mezit was captured by the HVO in the middle of the street

16 before the 9th of May; that is, before the offensive against Mostar and

17 against the civilians. We did not know where he was taken. Later on, we

18 learned that he was in a camp and he spent several months there. I cannot

19 say exactly. However, when he came back, he told about terrible torture

20 that he was subjected to, both in the camp and, in particular, during the

21 investigation that was conducted against him by Mr. Tuta in person.

22 Q. Now, before we continue on - probably everyone in the courtroom

23 realises this - but this is the Kasim Mezit that is listed as number 12 on

24 the list that you gave us a few minutes ago?

25 A. Correct.

Page 4072

1 Q. Now, please, tell us what happened to Mr. Mezit when he told you

2 about the -- his dealings, his contact with Tuta.

3 A. He told me that his interrogation was conducted personally by

4 Mr. Tuta himself. He said that he was given a piece of paper to write

5 down certain information which Mr. Tuta needed about the state of affairs

6 in the army, which he needed, about his participation or membership in

7 there and some other things.

8 Q. Let me stop for one moment. Do you know where this interrogation

9 took place? Did he tell you that?

10 A. He told me that he was brought there in a car; I'm not exactly

11 sure from which prison. I don't know whether he was in Listica or

12 Ljubuski; one of these places. But he was brought to the Heliodrom -- I

13 think it was actually Listica, because Mr. Jahic was also there and that

14 was mentioned, and he said that at that time that he had seen Mr. Jahic

15 there.

16 Q. Let me stop you for a moment because I'm not sure the Chamber had

17 heard about this before now. Is Listica another name, a prior name, for a

18 town called Siroki Brijeg?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When was the name of that town - if you know, approximately - when

21 was the name of that town changed from Listica to Siroki Brijeg?

22 A. I think it was changed in 1990.

23 Q. And can you tell the Chamber, please, between those two names,

24 Listica and Siroki Brijeg, is one of those a Muslim name and one of them a

25 Croat name for the same town?

Page 4073

1 A. No. There's no distinction there.

2 Q. Do you know why the name was changed to Siroki Brijeg?

3 A. It would take some time to explain it, but that used to be a name

4 before. But then during the communist era, that name was changed. I

5 don't think that there's much importance in it.

6 Q. At this point in time, we won't pursue it further. But the point

7 is, this is the same place also called Siroki Brijeg; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Right. Continue on, then. This interrogation that took place of

10 Kasim Mezit at Siroki Brijeg, what happened? You said he was given a

11 paper by Tuta and told to write things down. What happened after that?

12 A. Yes, that is correct, to write it down. As he did not know what

13 to write down in order to satisfy Mr. Tuta, he wrote down a few lines.

14 But he took the paper and crumpled it and threw it away and said to start

15 again.

16 Q. Who took the paper --

17 A. This went on for several times. Tuta did, who took the paper and

18 threw it away, because he was not happy with what was -- what had been

19 written down.

20 Q. And what happened next?

21 A. Next, he threatened him, and he told him if he didn't write down

22 what he was asked to do, that he would gouge his eyes out.

23 Q. And did anything else happen to Mr. Mezit around that time?

24 A. Mr. Mezit started writing again and didn't have anything to

25 write. And when he didn't receive the information that he wanted - this

Page 4074

1 is what Mr. Mezit told me at that time - Mr. Tuta took the pencil from his

2 hand and stuck it in his face, and he broke it against his jaw.

3 Q. Who stuck the pencil in whose face?

4 A. Mr. Tuta stuck it in Mr. Mezit's face.

5 Q. All right. Moving on, then.

6 MR. SCOTT: We are turning, Mr. President, to the final topic of

7 the direct examination.

8 Q. Mr. Smajkic, I would like to turn your attention now specifically

9 to the question of the destruction of cultural and religious properties.

10 And could you introduce this topic, please. Can you tell the Chamber

11 generally what you observed about the HVO or HDZ conduct toward signs and

12 symbols of Bosniak society.

13 A. Anything that was evocative in terms of architecture - not only

14 the religious structures, but there is an oriental influence in Mostar in

15 residential architecture, including the old bridge, which is a symbol of

16 the city, and a number of mosques and other infrastructure - all that was

17 targeted by the artillery and by other weapons.

18 Q. Can you look next at Exhibit 739.1. Can you just describe what

19 that document is to the Chamber and what that's about, what it indicates.

20 A. This is a document about the destruction and damage sustained by

21 the Islamic structure in my area.

22 Q. All right. Mr. Smajkic, I think you've jumped one too far.

23 Forgive me. If you go to 739.1 -- it's a very short exhibit, before you

24 get to the one I think you're referring to now. If you go back, please.

25 A. I can't orient myself. I don't know what you are referring to.

Page 4075

1 Q. The document you are looking at is -- I believe you're looking at

2 P868 which, of course, is the next document we will get to. But there

3 should be P739.1 before then, unless there's been -- it's quite possible

4 there has been an error.

5 MR. SCOTT: Does the Chamber have 739.1? Yes, that's it.

6 Q. That's it. That's it. Thank you very much.

7 Take a moment, please, to look at that so you know what it is.

8 And then can you just tell the Chamber what that document is about and

9 what it indicates.

10 A. I don't think that we need to spend any time on this document. It

11 is very clear to me. This is all the streets in Mostar whose names have

12 been changed after the expulsion of Muslims; that is, some streets were

13 changed even while we were there, without any consultation of the Muslim

14 partners. They got new names so that the person who goes back to Mostar

15 now, after seven or eight years, and who was born in Mostar, if he is to

16 go there now, he could not orient himself there at all. What is

17 characteristic about these names is that they are 100 per cent historical

18 figures, religious leaders, a number of friars and writers and so on, of

19 Croatian people. This just speaks to the fact that this whole area was

20 attempted to be turned into a Croatian area.

21 MR. SCOTT: Two follow-up questions to finish, Mr. President, if

22 I'm allowed, so we can finish with this document before the pause.

23 Q. Very specifically, Mr. Smajkic - and please, short answers, if you

24 can - who changed the names of these streets?

25 A. The Croatian -- the Croat authority, the Croatian Defence Council.

Page 4076












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4077

1 Q. The names on the right side in the column, the new names, if you

2 will, you were telling us -- just a moment ago, you said --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You said these were --

5 A. Take number --

6 Q. Let me ask you a general question -- or not general, but perhaps

7 different than the one you're about to mention. You said a moment ago

8 these were 100 per cent historical figures, religious leaders, a number of

9 friars, et cetera, and these were all of what national or ethnic group?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Of what national --

12 A. Yes, Croat ethnic group.

13 Q. All right. All right. With the President's indulgence, you said,

14 I think, you wanted to point out one particular name as an example. Can

15 you do that briefly, please?

16 A. Number 1, Square Rondo, is the square of Croatian --

17 Q. What's the new name? Just tell us briefly, what is the new name,

18 if you can tell us that, in Croatian?

19 A. The new name is Nikola Subic Zrinski. For instance, under 9,

20 street of Safeta Mujica.

21 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry, I hoped we could do this very quickly

22 before the break, but it may take another minute or two. If we could take

23 the pause now. And I can tell the Chamber I had sincerely hoped to finish

24 this witness before the first break but have not quite made it, but I

25 would hope to be finished shortly after the break.

Page 4078

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, we will adjourn until 11.30.

2 --- Recess taken at 11.04 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott. Please continue with your direct

5 examination.

6 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. Mr. Smajkic, I want to conclude on this exhibit, 739.1. We didn't

8 have really quite time to finish with clarity comments that you were

9 making before the break. At one point, I think you referred to number 1,

10 but then when you took us across the page, you took us to number 2.

11 So if we can start fresh on that point. You seem to want to

12 indicate to us, give us some examples of some of the name changes from

13 those in the left-hand column to those in the right-hand column. So would

14 you just tell us -- obviously we're not going to go through anything like

15 the entire list, but perhaps you can give us one or two examples.

16 A. I shall give the example under number 9, Safet Mujic. He was a

17 well-known doctor, a Bosniak, and his street was renamed the street of

18 Prince Domagoj. You have registered that, haven't you? Then number 13,

19 Maha Djikic. It was renamed into the street of King Tomislav. Then

20 street under number 26, Mostaric. It was renamed Dr. Barisa Smoljan.

21 Then 41, the street of Mujo Bjelavac. That was a Muslim name. And then

22 it was renamed the street of Father Ambro Miletic, et cetera.

23 Q. Let me go back for a moment, if I followed you correctly. In

24 terms of the --

25 A. Liska.

Page 4079

1 Q. In terms of the name in the right column for item number 26 that

2 you gave us, can you tell us what you know about that person. I'm not

3 sure that name necessarily means much to us. But Dr. Smoljan, who was

4 that person, if you know?

5 A. Muslim person, Mostaric. It was due to his merits that the street

6 was named after him. But then the street was renamed Dr. Barisa Smoljan.

7 Q. And I asked you who is Dr. Smoljen?

8 A. Dr. Smoljan is some Croat.

9 Q. I am finished that with exhibit.

10 Concerning the mosques in Mostar, both the east and the west side,

11 if you can say, can you tell the Chamber, please, briefly, the state of

12 those mosques by the end of the fighting with the HVO in approximately

13 February or March, 1994? What was the condition or state of the mosques

14 in Mostar?

15 A. All of them were totally destroyed. We can say that some mosques

16 were not totally destroyed. Their roofs were damaged, their walls, but I

17 can say to you that out of the 20 mosques in town, there was not a single

18 one that could receive believers who were supposed to come for prayers.

19 It was large-scale destruction, those who were razed to the ground, to

20 those who were considerably, considerably damaged - 80 per cent, for

21 instance - and they could therefore not be used for their original

22 purpose.

23 Q. Now, I want you to tell the Chamber, please, if you can -- and

24 then I'm going to ask you the basis for whatever it is your answer is.

25 Can you tell the Chamber, based on what you saw during those months in

Page 4080

1 Mostar -- can you make any observations about whether the mosques were

2 damaged by what we might call collateral damage or accidental fire or

3 whether, in your view, they were deliberately targeted? And whatever your

4 view is, please tell the Chamber why.

5 A. These were selected targets, quite precisely selected, targeted

6 and fired at with the aim of being destroyed. This list of names, street

7 names that we just saw, shows quite clearly that not a single name -- not

8 a single street was any longer named by a prominent Muslim. There was not

9 a single street in town that was still named after a prominent Muslim.

10 Everybody knew that from the very inception of the Croat Community of

11 Herceg-Bosna, the town of Mostar was proclaimed the capital of the

12 Croats. In the heads of the people who had charted such policies, it

13 seemed inconceivable --

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour, for this line

16 of testimony. The witness is here to testify and not to prosecute or to

17 think of what others may have thought.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Witness, I think the question is quite simple,

19 only concerning the mosques rather than those streets.


21 Q. Mr. Smajkic, you expressed -- let me rephrase. Let me focus you,

22 please. Forgive me for a moment, please. The question I put to you was

23 for you to express your observation of what you believe happened to the

24 mosques. And I asked you, and my question to you is - you must tell the

25 Chamber, of course, on what you base that - but why do you say, in your

Page 4081

1 view, that they were deliberately targeted? Now, please confine your

2 answer specifically to that.

3 A. Well, I started to, but then you wouldn't let me. I didn't want

4 to talk about the streets. I wanted to say just one more sentence, and

5 then I would have been quite clear. The Croat Defence Council, or rather,

6 the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna, proclaimed Mostar a Croat town. How

7 can it be a Croat town if there were 20 mosques and 20 minarets there?

8 They have to be destroyed, razed to the ground, so that it could be turned

9 into a so-called Croat town. That is quite clear.

10 Q. As the senior Islamic church official for the region of

11 Herzegovina and for the mosques in particular in Mostar, can you tell the

12 Chamber please, as far as you know, were any of the mosques used by the

13 ABiH or Bosniak forces for military purposes?

14 A. Never, never, not in a single case.

15 Q. I'm going to direct your attention to Exhibit 868.

16 MR. SCOTT: And it will be the final document, Mr. President, in

17 everyone's bundle of documents. It's a bit thick, but of course,

18 two-thirds of it is the other translations, both in French -- well, the

19 original B/C/S version, the French version, and the English version.

20 Q. Can you tell the Chamber what this is, Exhibit P868?

21 A. This is a report, review of mosques destroyed or damaged in the

22 territory that I covered.

23 Q. What role did you play in the preparation of this report?

24 A. I played a key role. By your leave, I have to note that there was

25 a mistake, just one. I noticed it only later. It concerns the mosque in

Page 4082

1 Livno -- or the mosques in Livno. You can find that -- I do apologise for

2 this mistake, this error. It has to be corrected. Let me just take a

3 look, please.

4 Q. All right.

5 MR. SCOTT: To assist the courtroom, I think he is referring to --

6 A. Livno.

7 Q. I think that was roman numeral section V.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What would you like to correct, please?

10 A. The mosque in Grborez under number 3 was not destroyed. It was

11 not destroyed. But recently -- or rather, even two or three days after

12 Dayton, hand grenades were thrown several times because Bosniak people

13 started coming back to that area and it has been seriously damaged.

14 Q. All right. Let's not pursue that further at this time.

15 All right. Is it accurate that - as you told us yesterday - that

16 all these facilities, whether it's a mosque -- I'm not sure there's other

17 religious buildings that are included in your report. These are all

18 religious facilities that were under essentially your responsibility; is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, I would like to direct your attention --

22 MR. SCOTT: Well, let me, Mr. President -- I'm not going to go

23 through this document at length. Obviously the Chamber has it, or will

24 have it if it's admitted, and can review it at length.

25 Q. Let's just see how this works. The first section under roman

Page 4083

1 numeral I(a), although I see there actually seems to be two I(a)'s. But

2 in the middle of the first page, it says: "Mostar Stari Grad, Old Town."

3 And then what you've done is list the demolished mosques in that section.

4 And then it goes from demolished mosques on to the next section of damaged

5 mosques. Is that the way, basically, that the report works, sir?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Directing your attention -- and I'm going to try to do this by

8 reference numbers, because the pages in the various versions might not be

9 the same. But if you can turn to -- if you can find the section for the

10 Southwest Mostar municipality. And I'm afraid the numbering, at least in

11 mine, is a bit hard to follow because there's a series of number 1s and

12 subheadings. But doesn't matter.

13 If you can please find the section titled "Southwest Mostar

14 Municipality." Do you have that? Do you have it?

15 A. I know it all by heart.

16 Q. All right. Well, it may assist if we refer to it by section so

17 other people in the courtroom can also follow.

18 Under "Demolished Mosque" in that section, number 1, can you just

19 simply confirm for us when you refer there to the Dervis Pasa mosque, is

20 that the mosque that you identified this morning as one of the mosques

21 destroyed on the 9th or 10th of May, 1993?

22 A. It was subjected to attacks all the time. Only its ruins are

23 still there; that is to say, a few badly damaged walls and nothing else,

24 totally damaged. This mosque was not razed to the ground, but it was

25 destroyed totally.

Page 4084

1 Q. All right. In your report, you say, reading the next sentence:

2 "The area of the city in which this mosque was situated was under the

3 control of Vinko Martinovic, Stela." What was that based on? Can you tell

4 us what information was used to make that statement in the report?

5 A. I wrote that because everybody knows, and all the people who came

6 from the west side knew, that this was the zone where Mr. Stela operated.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, although we have heard

9 both the question and the answer, since there is a problem with reviewing

10 the text, please disregard both the question and the answer, because the

11 Prosecutor has already omitted such acts from the indictment. In the

12 amended indictment, these acts are no longer there. They were omitted by

13 the Prosecutor.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, could you give us an explanation on

15 this very point.

16 MR. SCOTT: Of course, Your Honour. It's not being offered for

17 the purposes -- counsel is absolutely right, in terms of the charge. It's

18 not being offered to suggest, at least for purposes of the charges in the

19 indictment, that Mr. Martinovic was responsible for the destruction of

20 that mosque. But it does tend to identify, further confirm that part of

21 Mostar which was under his control. It's offered for that purpose.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may proceed, Mr. Scott.

23 MR. SCOTT: I might also indicate that he is charged, in fact,

24 with persecution in count 1.

25 Q. Would you please, then, go to item 3 under that same heading. You

Page 4085












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4086

1 mentioned a mosque in the settlement of Balinovac.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, I'm not going to read that out loud, because everyone in the

4 courtroom will have that, but I'm going to ask you a similar question: On

5 what basis do you indicate that soldiers commanded by Tuta were involved

6 in the mosque -- this mosque being destroyed?

7 A. This was noticed by people who were being taken away by the HVO

8 forces right by the mosque itself, because that was the road that led to

9 the west and to the camps and other prisons. So these people noticed the

10 exact day, the 9th, when the offensive was launched. That's when it was

11 destroyed, and even the foundations could no longer be seen.

12 Q. All right. I'm going to direct your attention now to roman

13 numeral III, which is titled, "Religious Council of the Islamic Community

14 of Jablanica." You indicate there under "Demolished Mosques," number 1,

15 the mosque in the settlement of Sovici, destroyed by explosives after the

16 Bosniaks had been expelled from the settlement.

17 Number 2, the mosque in the settlement of Doljani, it was set on

18 fire and destroyed after the massacre of the inhabitants of the village.

19 There are indications that the units that did it were under the command of

20 Naletilic, Tuta. And I ask you again, what was the basis for these

21 observations, first starting, if you will, with the destruction of the

22 mosque in Sovici, if you can give us that answer first, and then if you

23 can turn your attention to Doljani, please.

24 A. These are two villages and two neighbouring mosques. The two

25 villages are adjacent. After the massacre that was committed against the

Page 4087

1 population of Sovici and Doljani, under number 1 and 2, part of the

2 civilians were expelled to Jablanica, the municipal centre of Jablanica.

3 Refugees, ex-police, at that particular place that I visited, told me that

4 this was done by the units under Tuta.

5 Q. All right. Did you have occasion, as part of this work, or people

6 acting under your direction, to interview refugees and persons in

7 Jablanica about these matters?

8 A. Yes, yes. We have a department of the Islamic community in

9 Jablanica, and they are more familiar with these problems than I am, but

10 this was said to us in my presence and in the presence of the imam from

11 Jablanica during my visit there.

12 Q. And with the one correction that you've made, sir, this morning -

13 for which we thank you - concerning the mosque in Livno, do you believe,

14 to the best of your knowledge, that this report, which is P868, is

15 accurate?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Smajkic, I have no further questions for you. I

18 apologise if I sometimes interrupted you. I did not mean any disrespect,

19 but I was trying to move the taking of the testimony along a bit. I thank

20 you very much.

21 Mr. President I have no questions -- further questions.

22 JUDGE LIU: Cross-examinations? Mr. Krsnik? I have to remind you

23 that when you are cross-examining the witness, please be polite and do

24 fairness to the witness. And another thing is that if you want to show

25 some documents to this witness, as a rule of this Chamber, you have to

Page 4088

1 distribute it before your cross-examination rather than lead us from one

2 document to another. You may proceed, Mr. Krsnik.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. By all

4 means, I shall abide by your instructions.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, witness.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. I am Defence counsel for the accused Mladen Naletilic, so I'm

9 going to put some questions to you. I shall always try to phrase my

10 questions in such a way in order to get concise and short answers. We

11 both speak the same language, so could we please both of us pause so that

12 the interpreters can interpret this into the official languages of the

13 Tribunal?

14 A. All right.

15 Q. Thank you. Could you please be so kind as to answer my first

16 question: Why do you claim that the Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna is an

17 illegal organisation?

18 A. Because it did not recognise or doesn't recognise the constitution

19 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the laws stemming from the constitution.

20 Q. You know that the HZ HB was precisely established on the basis of

21 the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina, because that is what the

22 constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina allows to every one of the constituent

23 peoples, and you know that the HZ HB is an organisation within

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 A. I think that you also know --

Page 4089

1 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour?

2 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott?

3 MR. SCOTT: I'm going to have to object to that as a factual

4 inaccuracy, the characterisation of putting that question to the witness

5 because, as Mr. Krsnik knows, the constitutional court of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina declared Herceg-Bosna to be unconstitutional and

7 illegal.

8 A. That's what I wanted to say.

9 JUDGE LIU: You may rephrase your question, Mr. Krsnik.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, may I

11 give an explanation? The constitutional court of Bosnia-Herzegovina

12 passed that decision in 1993, in different political and historic

13 circumstances, and we are going to get to that during the

14 cross-examination.

15 But now I'm talking about 1992, and because of some of the

16 questions that were put by my learned friend, I will have to put one

17 question related to 1991. Therefore, Your Honours, when speaking of 1992,

18 there is no recognition of the independent state of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

19 there is no ruling of the constitutional court, and my questions will lead

20 to that. And I don't know whether this present witness is testifying here

21 as a politician, as a religious authority, or as an individual, as a

22 person, in his private capacity. I will have to clarify all of that as

23 well.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You have the full right to cross-examine this

25 witness on all those matters, but before you pose a question, you better

Page 4090

1 set a time frame at the beginning of your question so that all of us could

2 know where you are heading for.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour. You have to

4 know that there are two constitutions of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I'm sorry

5 that I always have to give these explanations with witnesses listening to

6 my explanations. I wanted to come to this through my questions.

7 There was a constitution, there was a socialist constitution, and

8 then there was another constitution that was drafted, but that was never

9 accepted because it was never adopted by all three peoples, and until the

10 present day there is still no constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina in this

11 form of the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina as exists today. The state of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina does not exist even today, because it consists of the

13 Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Republic of Srpska. It is an

14 union of two states within one.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, your job is to do the

16 cross-examination. I hope that what you said is the answer from this

17 witness, rather than your statement.

18 You may proceed with your cross-examination. Just remember that

19 you have to put your question in a concise and precise way. Thank you.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Now that we have mentioned this constitutional decision, tell me,

22 in order for a decision to become legal, both a decision made by a

23 government and of the constitutional court, do the representatives of all

24 three peoples have to be present when such a decision is being made?

25 A. As far as I know, the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina adopted a

Page 4091

1 constitution --

2 Q. I do apologise for interrupting you. But please, would you be so

3 kind as to answer. It was very brief.

4 A. We are talking about the law now. I think this is really going to

5 tire us out and a lot of time would be needed to explain all of this. It

6 would be time consuming, wouldn't it? But in principle, yes, of course,

7 under normal circumstances, that's the way it should be.

8 Q. Do you know which judges adopted this decision, who signed on it,

9 who were on the Supreme Court in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. I don't.

11 Q. Do you know that the government and war presidency of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina was a legal war presidency elected by all three

13 constituent peoples? Do you know or not know, if you can just follow my

14 questions?

15 A. Of course I can follow you. Of course I can. However, we are

16 going in a direction of law and constitution.

17 Q. Very well. Let me rephrase the question. Was there rotation in

18 the presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina as provided by the constitution

19 adopted by the will of all three peoples after the first democratic

20 elections? In other words, was there a different president or presidency

21 from a different ethnic group every year?

22 A. Not at first.

23 Q. In late -- sorry, in the beginning of 1993, on the basis of this

24 principle of rotation, was Mr. Izetbegovic supposed to turn over the

25 presidency to another member?

Page 4092

1 A. The obstructions had already started in order to break up

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time, so there was no one to turn the

3 presidency to at that point.

4 Q. I'm sorry, but you did not quite answer my question. Did he or

5 did he not turn over his post to someone else?

6 A. He did not.

7 Q. Was that the reason why representatives of the Serbian and

8 Croatian ethnic groups left the government and the institutions of

9 presidency?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you know what the name of the Croatian member of the presidency

12 was?

13 A. For a period of time, that was Mr. Komsic.

14 Q. Do you know in 1993, that is, the period that we are dealing with,

15 who it was?

16 A. For a period of time, it was -- I would need to remember this. I

17 would need to recall.

18 Q. If you don't know, just say so.

19 A. For a period of time, it was Mr. Boras. And then after him, they

20 changed; I think Lasic and so on.

21 Q. Mr. Boras was elected in the democratic elections which were

22 conducted, and it was through the elections that he became a member of the

23 presidency; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know when he left the presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 4093

1 A. No, I do not.

2 Q. Very well. This is what I needed to hear.

3 In the presidency in other political bodies, could the members of

4 these bodies only be those who were elected through the democratic

5 process?

6 A. That is how it should have been.

7 Q. Was Alija Izetbegovic not the president between 1993 and 1996 --

8 -9 almost?

9 A. You could say so, yes.

10 Q. So then, was he a legal president?

11 A. He was.

12 Q. Regardless of the fact that he did not abide by the constitution,

13 the laws, and the will of people which provided that the presidents would

14 rotate every year?

15 A. Counsellor, it was a state of war. You see, what changes took

16 place and how the policy changed -- the Croatian people elected Kljujic in

17 a legal manner.

18 Q. Excuse me. I was asking you about Mr. Alija Izetbegovic. We will

19 come to Mr. Kljujic later.

20 His refusal to turn over the presidency did not lead to a conflict

21 and the abandonment of all institutional posts by the Croats and Serbs and

22 only the Muslims remained?

23 A. No. The real reasons were the agreements between presidents

24 Tudjman and Milosevic and their satellites in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down a little bit.

Page 4094












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4095

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Did you attend a meeting between Mr. Tudjman and Mr. Milosevic?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Do you know what was discussed there?

5 A. The public was informed by the public figures of Croatia who knew

6 about what went on there.

7 Q. Was this information speculation on the part of journalists, and

8 is this what is the basis of your information?

9 A. No. It was from what Mr. Stjepan Mesic, president of Croatia,

10 stated and other officials.

11 Q. Mr. Stjepan Mesic was not in Karadzordzevo and stated that

12 publicly. Do you know that?

13 A. I'm not interested in that.

14 Q. Tell me, you were shown a document, unsigned, no stamp, talking

15 about some guarantees. This was in Graz at some alleged meeting between

16 the representatives of the Serb and Croat groups?

17 A. No, I don't know.

18 Q. Was the basis of your knowledge of that also speculation in

19 newspapers?

20 A. One learns about everything.

21 Q. Now, tell me, please, was there a "media war," if I can put it in

22 quotation marks, between the Muslim media, electronic and print, as well

23 as the Croat and Serb ones?

24 A. I know that there were inflammatory pieces and propaganda in the

25 Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna and obviously in the Republika Srpska

Page 4096

1 and in the Serbian media.

2 Q. How about the Muslim media?

3 A. That was only by exception.

4 Q. Now, you as a religious leader, did you not go on Radio Mostar and

5 announced the -- Mr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic, did you not personally declare

6 that he was sacked on Radio Mostar?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Will you please tell this Trial Chamber, what does the Mufti of

9 Mostar have to do with politics, let alone to announce the removal of a

10 political official?

11 A. I would need some time to explain that.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. If you give me some time, I will do so.

14 Q. We will come to that point, but I want to continue with my

15 questions.

16 Can you tell me, can you link the religious activities and

17 politics?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Would that not be analogous to Bishop Peric's announcing on radio

20 that, for instance, Mate Boban was removed from power?

21 A. Yes, that would be similar. But Bishop Peric had no reason for

22 it, but I did have a reason. And that was not my own will. That was the

23 will of the Bosniak people.

24 Q. Can you confirm for me the contention that among the Muslims in

25 Herzegovina, there were those who were -- the locals who were there -- who

Page 4097

1 were indigenous and who always wanted to negotiate with Croats, but there

2 were those who had come as refugees and who had contributed to the rising

3 of tension and who did not want to negotiate?

4 A. That does not reflect the real situation.

5 Q. It does not reflect the real situation. Very well, thank you.

6 A. In other words, all Muslims were for dialogue and for tolerance,

7 both the locals and the newcomers.

8 Q. Why, then, was Mr. Hadziosmanovic removed from his post?

9 A. The Bosniak people removed him because he did not represent the

10 interests of Bosniaks in a right way.

11 Q. Sir, did you not establish and lead the Council of Muslims of

12 Herzegovina as a parallel institution of the SDA at the instruction of

13 Mr. Izetbegovic in order to remove Mr. Izetbegovic?

14 A. Mr. Izetbegovic?

15 Q. No, sorry, Mr. Hadziosmanovic, but at the instructions of

16 Mr. Izetbegovic.

17 A. We wanted to organise within the Muslim community forces which

18 through legal means and through a democratic process would decide on the

19 removal of Mr. Hadziosmanovic.

20 Q. Will you please take the bundle provided to you by the

21 Prosecution? And I think this is the Exhibit number --

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer?

23 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. President, I could be wrong. I've

24 been trying to listen along in the French, and I noticed that the English

25 transcript the question was whether, on line 16, the witness did something

Page 4098

1 in order to remove Mr. Izetbegovic, and I don't know whether that should

2 be, in fact, a reference to the removal of Mr. Hadziosmanovic, but I see

3 that it has been corrected. I apologise.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, you have a good point, but this witness is not

5 yours, so you are not allowed to make any interventions at this stage.

6 MR. STRINGER: I apologise, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott. Well, Mr. Krsnik, would you please clear

8 it up for us?

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour. And I

10 appreciate the comment of -- again, this is part of the fact that we speak

11 the same language and sometimes it's difficult to follow us. The question

12 was clear, whether it was at instructions of Mr. Izetbegovic, who at the

13 time was legal president of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Witness -- the witness

14 established the Council of Muslims of Herzegovina as a parallel force

15 against Mr. Hadziosmanovic and through which organisation he was removed,

16 and eventually they succeeded in doing so.

17 Q. Is this correct, sir?

18 A. At that time, Mr. Hadziosmanovic had Mr. Izetbegovic's support.

19 We wanted to express the will of Bosniaks, and we wanted this to reach

20 Mr. Izetbegovic so that he could direct Mr. Hadziosmanovic to resign.

21 Q. Will you please be so kind and open the bundle to the page where

22 the Exhibit P173.1 is? Look -- please look at the B/C/S version.

23 A. I cannot find it. What page is that?

24 Q. Actually, it's not a page. Actually, 626 at the top, right corner

25 but the exhibit is P173.1. The last three digits in the top, right corner

Page 4099

1 should be 626.

2 A. Right.

3 Q. Witness, I believe this is paragraph 2 of the alleged letter by

4 Mr. Hadziosmanovic to the Croatian Party of Democratic -- to the Croatian

5 Democratic Union, to the president personally. First off, do you know

6 Mr. Hadziosmanovic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was it customary for him not to sign letters that he wrote?

9 A. We found this in a computer, so we do not have all the documents.

10 I had a number of documents with signatures affixed, but as I said, my

11 archives were seized in western Mostar, but we were able to save this in

12 the computer.

13 Q. Now, who is "we"? You said "we." What computer was this and when

14 did you find it?

15 A. This was saved in our -- by our technical department.

16 Q. Excuse me, where was this computer?

17 A. That was the team that worked with me. There were people who

18 saved this -- the certain documents that we wrote, and our technical

19 service saved it on a diskette.

20 Q. And the team that worked with you, what did this team work on?

21 A. It worked on this document that you're referring to here.

22 Q. Can you confirm to me that it was you and your team who found this

23 document and then provided it to the Office of the Prosecutor?

24 A. Excuse me, I did not understand you.

25 Q. This document you found, you had a team that worked on this?

Page 4100

1 A. No, no, no. At a time when the -- when the document was drafted,

2 we had a team, but this is my document.

3 Q. I see. This is your document. Were you a member of the Party of

4 Democratic Action?

5 A. Never.

6 Q. Did you ever attend any meetings, gatherings of this party?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you ever with the military? Did you take an active part with

9 the 4th Corps?

10 A. I did not bear arms, I did not wear a uniform, but I did cooperate

11 with them, and I can say that I cooperated actively on the moral support;

12 that is, I was with people in the rear.

13 Q. Did you go to their ceremonies?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Again to provide moral support?

16 A. Because that was the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the only legal

17 armed force of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18 Q. You see, I have my questions, but as you give me your answers, I

19 have to ask you different questions.

20 A. Go ahead.

21 Q. The HVO was also a legal force in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

22 A. Yes, until it became a renegade force and an aggressor against

23 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

24 Q. Do you understand the concept of aggressor?

25 A. Very well.

Page 4101

1 Q. An aggressor has to come from outside, otherwise it's civil war.

2 A. But it was supported from outside by Croatia.

3 Q. I see. Very well. Let me take you to paragraph 2 of this

4 unsigned letter which you found somewhere in your computer. And the --

5 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President?


7 MR. SCOTT: The issue should be squarely put to this witness, if

8 it, in fact, is Mr. Krsnik's position. If he's putting to the witness

9 that this letter is falsified, and this letter was not in fact put --

10 prepared by Dr. Hadziosmanovic, then I think he should put that squarely

11 to this witness and give the witness a chance to respond, if that's in

12 fact his position, if he truly is contending that that's not a letter from

13 Dr. Hadziosmanovic.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, that is not my contention. It is

16 a very simple question. I just asked the witness about it. He explained

17 what it is. I asked why it was not signed, and he explained why. I see

18 nothing unusual about that.

19 JUDGE LIU: You are not challenging the authenticity of this

20 letter.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] For now, I don't. If I am allowed to

22 ask questions, I think that it is all going to be very clear.

23 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Mr. President, but I don't know what "for now"

24 means. Does he challenge the authenticity of the letter or not?

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me ask the witness

Page 4102

1 to -- let me read this, and then we will be very clear.

2 THE INTERPRETER: It is impossible for the interpreters to follow

3 the speed of this reading.

4 JUDGE LIU: I have to remind both of you, since you are speaking

5 the same language, so please do make a pause after each question or

6 answer.

7 Witness, you might not be familiar with the proceedings in this

8 Tribunal. In front of you, you have a screen. Every word will be

9 translated and appear in that screen. When you see the sentence is

10 finished, you may begin to answer the question. Otherwise, we cannot

11 follow up with both of you. Also, whatever you say has to be translated

12 from English to French, which makes it more difficult for those French

13 listeners to catch up with you.

14 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, Your

16 Honours.

17 Q. I think this is the paragraph I was reading: "Many signs of the

18 Croatian and Muslim people have given their lives to the freedom -- for

19 freedom in the course of the common war in the territory of Mostar and

20 Herzegovina, which is why we must engage in a democratic dialogue to

21 create the conditions for regaining the mutual trust that has been

22 undermined. To this end, we would like to draw attention to all the good

23 that the Republic of Croatia has done for the Muslims from Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina."

25 The letter was written, I believe, on 14 September 1992. And in a

Page 4103












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4104

1 democratic dialogue, Mr. Hadziosmanovic lists the items that needs to be

2 addressed. Is that not a democratic way of addressing things?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you removed from office such a person?

5 A. Read the next line.

6 Q. Of course. And I will agree that it should be tendered into

7 evidence, because it shows the capacity for democracy of this man. Of

8 course, there were misunderstandings that needed to be resolved on the

9 14th of September, 1992. Of course, they were political parties, is that

10 correct, with different political programmes? Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So then political parties meet, and they talk, discuss things; is

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And if I look at this letter, I believe that Mr. Hadziosmanovic

16 was the right person to do this. You don't think so?

17 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, what's the relevance of this question?

18 Is there any dispute that Mr. Hadziosmanovic wrote this letter?

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, we would like to hear the answer from this

20 witness.

21 Yes, if you have an answer, Witness, you may answer this

22 question.

23 A. Mr. Hadziosmanovic, in these 10 or 12 items that he wrote,

24 confirmed all the objections that we listed in the documents that we had

25 produced.

Page 4105

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Well, that is your view of things. Is this your view of this

3 document, the way you just said? This is your point of view, this is your

4 standpoint? This is how you read this letter?

5 A. This is how I read it, and that's how it is.

6 Q. Very well. Did Mr. Hadziosmanovic come from one of the oldest

7 families in Mostar, who has lived there for generations, for centuries?

8 A. Yes, one of the most reputed Mostar families. I don't know how

9 many centuries they lived there.

10 Q. Can you deny that a person of that kind would be the best suited

11 to know the political climate and the mentality of people in the area?

12 Would you agree with me?

13 A. Yes, unless -- and this is hard for me to say because I would like

14 to keep his authority intact. But in a way, he must not betray his own

15 people, because in every people, you have someone who --

16 *** [Cannot distinguish between Q and A] ***

17 Q. Thank you. Very well. A person who is seeking democratic

18 dialogue, cooperation, common life with another ethnic group in the same

19 area and who is trying to work on solving these problems. And as he said

20 in a meeting -- and I'm going to quote -- excuse me a moment.

21 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Mr. President, while he's looking for that,

22 the transcript, as you probably know, has got the answers and questions

23 all mixed up. So it's hard to -- just note that for the record.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

25 Mr. Krsnik, could you tell us which document are you using right

Page 4106

1 now?

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] These are my own notes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think we have made a rule that we have to be

4 informed beforehand. And also in fairness to this witness, you could

5 not just fish a document and read something. That's not fair.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not intend to use

7 this document at all. These are simply my notes, and I have thousands of

8 those. I just wanted to remember the date. You will hear the question.

9 It will all be quite clear.

10 Q. Were you present at a meeting --

11 A. May I just say something? This document, the way it is now, even

12 though it was signed by Hadziosmanovic, I accept that 100 percent. So

13 let's get this over with, because it is along the lines of the interests

14 of the Croats and the Bosniaks. So let's just cut it short.

15 Q. Were you at the meeting of the regional committee of the SDA on

16 the 10th of April, 1993?

17 A. What was the date?

18 Q. The 10th of April, 1993.

19 A. May I --

20 Q. May I remind you that there was a big quarrel at that meeting

21 between Safet Orucevic and his group and Hadziosmanovic and his group?

22 A. I was not at that meeting.

23 Q. Were you perhaps informed about this meeting?

24 A. I don't remember.

25 Q. Were you present at a meeting on the 16th of April, 1993, the

Page 4107

1 meeting was attended by the representatives of the army of the 4th Corps,

2 the representatives of the Council of Bosniaks of Herzegovina, you and

3 Efendi Tinjak --

4 A. Please go ahead.

5 Q. -- when all Muslims were requested to leave schools, political

6 councils, and all organisations in the HZ HB. Hadziosmanovic opposed it,

7 then saying that he wants misunderstandings to be resolved by dialogue,

8 not in blood. After that Mitar Hujdur, the late Mitar Hujdur, said that

9 he would take the town of Mostar with his boys within one hour.

10 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

12 MR. SCOTT: I truly am, but that's not the proper way to put a

13 question. You can start by saying, "Were you at a meeting?" If the

14 witness says no, he was not at the meeting, it's improper to then suggest

15 all these things happened at a meeting which this witness doesn't know

16 about.

17 JUDGE LIU: I agree with you.

18 Mr. Krsnik, this witness said very clear that he was not at the

19 meeting. And how could you cross-examine on the contents of that

20 meeting?

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, these are two different meetings,

22 Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: What's the date of that meeting, if I may know?

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The 16th of April. I asked him very

25 simply, and I explained who was present.

Page 4108

1 Just a minute, my learned friend.

2 The point of this cross-examination is to get answers that we

3 shall then either disprove or deny with our own witness.

4 A. I do not remember. I do not remember.

5 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, before you informed me the meeting was on

6 the 16th of April, we all were on the meeting of the 10th of April, 1993.

7 I think there's a misunderstanding between us and between you and your

8 witness.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My colleagues who are following the

10 transcript say that it's all there in the transcript very nicely. At any

11 rate, there is a misunderstanding, so I'll try to slow down with my

12 questions, because they tell me that the relevant date was there. In the

13 meantime, I did get an answer from the witness to my question, and that

14 was he said that he did not remember.

15 Q. And my final question with regard to this meeting: At the meeting

16 of the Islamic community on the 29th of April, 1993, you were present, as

17 well as Efendi Kojic, Efendi Tinjak, and Mr. Zijo Demirovic, president of

18 the regional committee by then, if I'm not mistaken.

19 You established there, and you passed a kind of decision stating

20 that it is only the policy of Alija Izetbegovic that can be abided by, and

21 Mr. Zijo Demirovic stated that Mostar has to be an Islamic city in all its

22 glory. Do you remember that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Honourable witness, tell me, please, imams, hodzas, were they war

25 commanders and commanders in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and did they

Page 4109

1 actively participate in the war?

2 A. Some did.

3 Q. Can you give me some from your own Mufti territory?

4 A. Halilovic, Nezim.

5 Q. Is that the commander of the 4th Light Cavalry Muslim Brigade?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where is he now?

8 A. He is now in Sarajevo.

9 Q. Unfortunately, I cannot tender this now. I just received it. So

10 I'll try to have it photocopied during the break. Namely, the newspapers

11 carried a story stating that the mentioned gentleman went on a trip and is

12 now in Afghanistan. I'm asking you now whether you know this because he

13 belongs to your Mufti territory?

14 A. Well, newspapers write about all sorts of things, and you just

15 received this and this is the first that I've ever heard of it.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?

17 MR. SCOTT: I object to the relevance of something that happened

18 in 2001, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Well, Mr. Krsnik, we are not to go into this.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I withdraw this question. I withdraw

21 this question. But, Your Honour, I shall have many questions for this

22 witness, because it is only through this witness that the Honourable Trial

23 Chamber can understand the nature of certain things that were going on in

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So this question of mine was not put just like that,

25 because I know what is relevant and what is irrelevant. Nevertheless, I

Page 4110

1 withdraw it. You will see later, through my further examination, why I

2 put this particular question as well.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, you have full right to do your

4 cross-examination, but just within certain limits.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I do beg your pardon, Your Honour.

6 Of course, I am not going to engage in dialogue with you, ever. I shall

7 simply abide by your rulings. When the Prosecutor asked witnesses about

8 certain persons, he would end by putting a question, by saying, "Where is

9 this person now?" And then these questions were allowed. And that is

10 particularly what he asked Mr. Van Hecke. So that's why I thought that I

11 could ask this witness where the mentioned gentleman is nowadays. I'm

12 going to give you the exact question that the Prosecutor put to Mr. Van

13 Hecke, was, "Where is Ivan Andabak now?"

14 JUDGE LIU: The question is that we have not seen that piece of

15 newspaper. You could not get something from your pocket and show him and

16 ask whether you know this person is in a certain place in the world. So

17 I've already reminded you that before your cross-examination, you have to

18 photocopy all those documents and furnish them to everybody. I think only

19 by doing so it is fair to everyone. You may proceed, Mr. Krsnik.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Would you please be so kind as to tell the Trial Chamber what an

22 emir is and what is the position that an emir holds in the army of

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24 A. This was a position which was sometimes official and sometimes

25 voluntary in the units that had an Islamic background.

Page 4111

1 Q. Are you trying to say that some units of the BH army had an

2 Islamic background and others did not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I see. And tell me, the 4th Corps, did it have an Islamic

5 background or not?

6 A. There were units that wanted, in their own special way, to

7 regulate their private, personal lives. This was a smaller group of

8 persons who wanted to carry out Muslim rituals, to have Muslim food, and

9 to behave within the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina as a separate unit,

10 whereas others, the rest, were free men, so to speak; that is to say, that

11 they could come from Muslim background but they did not necessarily have

12 to, on the other hand. However, these were a group of persons who,

13 through their personal and family lives, wanted to establish a special

14 code of conduct.

15 Q. Thank you. Did the 4th Corps have an emir of its own?

16 A. At the beginning, at the beginning, there was one, until the

17 separate unit was founded.

18 Q. And tell me, after the 9th of May - we are relying on this date

19 because that's what the indictment says, 1993, 1994, and 1995 - can you

20 give me a single Croat or a Serb's name that was in the army of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. There were several of them.

23 Q. Were there ten of them or were there 100 of them or a thousand?

24 A. I'm not a personnel officer of the army, and I didn't count them.

25 Q. Thank you. Tell me, how can Islam go along with an army which was

Page 4112












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4113

1 created on a democratic basis of a democratic state and it expresses the

2 obligation and duty of all the citizens of that particular state?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. For example, when the army has a salute and when they salute the

5 homeland, for example, do they also have a salute saying Allah-u-ekber?

6 A. That is not an adequate salute from our point of view. It is

7 used -- Allah-u-ekber is used for different things, not as a salute in

8 the army.

9 Q. I am moving slowly because your salute, your form of greeting, is

10 al salam ou alaykum. I'm going through all of this for the Trial

11 Chamber.

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Tell me, please, when I said "Allah-u-ekber," was that the salute

14 that could be heard when there were lineups, military reviews, and when

15 men went into fighting? Is that a call that was heard, to Allah?

16 A. Possibly in some units, yes, smaller units.

17 Q. Tell me, honourable witness, is this acceptable for Croats and

18 Serbs in a common army?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Well, then, tell me, how come the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina has

21 the exclusive right to say that they are the only army that is liberating

22 Bosnia and Herzegovina and that state belongs to three peoples?

23 A. Because it is pervading political opinion that prevailed and

24 turned their own military units against the interests of the

25 internationally recognised state of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 4114

1 Q. Would the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina ever have been

2 internationally recognised had the Croats not voted in the referendum for

3 its independence?

4 A. No, it would not have. No, it wouldn't have.

5 Q. Honourable witness, a lot of reference has been made to language.

6 You're a learned man. The Bosnian language -- first of all, in order for

7 a language to be a language, doesn't it have to have grammar and spelling

8 rules?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The Bosnian language, did it have its grammar and spelling rules

11 and everything else that would make a language a language in 1991, 1992,

12 1993, 1994, or 1995?

13 A. It did, since 1903. The beginning of the 20th century, to be

14 precise.

15 Q. I beg your pardon. Did you go to school in Bosnia-Herzegovina? I

16 mean primary school, secondary school, university.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What's the language that you studied and what are the languages

19 that existed in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 A. Officially and legally, there were the Bosnian and the Croat

21 languages that were recognised. No, sorry, Serbian and Croat.

22 Q. You studied in Bosnia-Herzegovina in a language which was called

23 Serbo-Croat or Croato-Serb only; isn't that correct?

24 A. Serbo-Croat or Croato-Serb, it boils down to the same thing.

25 Q. Yes, yes. But I mean the official terminology was precisely that,

Page 4115

1 wasn't it? And one week the Roman script was used in schools for writing

2 and then the next week the students would write in the Cyrillic script;

3 isn't that right?

4 A. Well, not exactly, but, yes, yes. People knew both scripts, both

5 alphabets, and if necessary, they wrote both Cyrillic and Latin. Excuse

6 me, we cannot just forget about this. I have to tell you why we did not

7 study the Bosnian language.

8 Q. Don't worry. I'm going to put the right questions to you. I'm

9 going to put that question to you straight away so we're going to resolve

10 this: The Bosnian language, it was not constitutional, legal, and as

11 such, it did not exist from 1945 until 1997, not in a single

12 constitution. It did not exist according to any one of these

13 constitutions; is that correct?

14 A. Well, it's not quite correct. It did exist, but it was not

15 recognised.

16 Q. And when was the Bosnian language officially established; do you

17 know that? In which year?

18 A. I think that you know full well -- I mean, Your Honours, I have to

19 say this. There was a certain discrimination in the former system against

20 Bosniaks, both from the side of greater Serbian ambitions and greater

21 Croatian ambitions. So Muslims from a national ethnic point of view were

22 disenfranchised. Therefore, non-recognition of the Bosnian language in

23 documents is not a denial of the language itself. We spoke that language,

24 as we do speak it today. However, there were tendencies for the Bosniak

25 people, as they are called nowadays, to become assimilated, either to

Page 4116

1 become part of the Croatian people or of the Serbian people.

2 Q. Please, please --

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik. The other day, we have already come

4 across the issue of language with another witness. We have got the

5 picture of how the languages are used in that area. It seems to me that

6 the issue of language will get us nowhere.

7 Would you please finish this set of the questions concerning the

8 language as soon as possible.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour. I shall

10 abide by every one of your rulings.

11 Q. Tell me, what are the national groups, the ethnic groups, that

12 existed in Bosnia-Herzegovina until 1974?

13 A. The Bosniak nation was not there. That's what you're asking me,

14 aren't you?

15 Q. Thank you. This is the first time I have a witness who is a

16 learned man and with whom I can paint the right kind of picture for the

17 Honourable Trial Chamber. So you're the first person who has given me an

18 answer to this question. I thank you for that.

19 Now, would you please explain to the Trial Chamber the meaning of

20 the word "Muslim"? What does "Muslim" mean in Arabic? I'll tell you

21 why. Sometimes people say that they are Muslim. Sometimes they say they

22 are Bosniak. Some people want me to call them Bosnians. Let's just

23 clarify this terminology. I think that you are the only person who can

24 really clarify the matter for us.

25 A. "Muslim" means a man devoted to God.

Page 4117

1 Q. So Islam is a faith?

2 A. Islam is a faith.

3 Q. Is it, then, right to say that you are a Bosniak of the Islamic

4 faith?

5 A. It is right to say from an ethnic point of view that we are

6 Bosniaks, without this adjective "of Islamic faith."

7 Q. So what is right? What do you say about members of the Islamic

8 faith who live in Croatia or in Germany? Is it right to say that this is

9 a Croat of Islamic faith, for example?

10 A. With our national minority in Zagreb, in Croatia, we have a

11 problem. We have a problem because they have not become part of the

12 constitution. They are not recognised as the Bosniak ethnic group, the

13 Bosniak national group. They are called "Croats of the Islamic faith."

14 Q. Would you please be so kind as to tell this Honourable Trial

15 Chamber -- actually, I think it's easiest to proceed in the following

16 way: Muslims participated -- and you're the one who mentioned Pavelic.

17 Didn't Muslims participate in Ustasha establishments, in Ustasha

18 authorities and units by 80 percent?

19 A. A large number of them were in the home guards, the home guards.

20 Q. And that was not -- Ustasha --

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

22 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I think it's only pertinent that

23 Ustasha be given some definition, because I don't think in the proceedings

24 so far there has been any explanation of that. If it's a term that

25 Mr. Krsnik is going to use, it should be expressed.

Page 4118

1 JUDGE LIU: We believe that this Chamber has made a ruling that we

2 do not use all those terms like "Ustasha." Can you paraphrase these terms

3 in other ways, other terms, rather than use this way.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour. I wanted

5 to clarify that situation, as well, although my learned friend is

6 impatient. I wanted to clarify this for your benefit because my client

7 has been accused of forcing others to sing Ustasha songs, so we are

8 interested in that. Why would an Ustasha song offend Muslims? Because it

9 is a historical fact. And now I see the extent to which I will have to go

10 into this matter in my case, because the Muslims -- I will have to bring

11 bundles of books. Muslims had a common state with the Croats. At that

12 time, they were Croats of the Islamic faith, and that is what I was

13 getting at, but I'm not being allowed to do it.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, if a witness said certain words, I

15 think it's excusable because they are not familiar with the rules of this

16 Trial Chamber. Please, we do not allow those words uttered by Defence

17 counsel. Do you understand the difference?

18 Since we are almost approaching 1.00, we will resume at 2.30 this

19 afternoon.

20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.58 p.m.






Page 4119

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness, I would like to ask you to answer the following

5 question: Regarding the Geneva negotiations and the signing of the

6 Vance-Owen Plan, took place in January of 1993; is that correct?

7 A. I believe it is. I don't necessarily know, but I believe.

8 Q. Tell me, was it only the Serbs who refused to sign this peace

9 accord?

10 A. I do not know that.

11 Q. Do you know that on the basis of the Vance-Owen Plan, Bosnia is

12 divided into provinces, and where the majority of the population of a

13 province is Bosnian, all authority was to be in the hands of the Bosnian

14 population; in those provinces where the majority population was Serbian,

15 the authority would be Serbian; and where the Croats were in the majority,

16 they would have the power?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?

18 MR. SCOTT: I object to the form of the question, Your Honour, as

19 not stating the facts. It's an improper characterisation.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik, would you please rephrase your

21 question?

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honours.

23 Q. On the basis of the Vance-Owen Plan, was the Minister of Defence

24 of Bosnia and Herzegovina -- actually, did the Minister of Defence of

25 Bosnia and Herzegovina issue an order where in areas with the majority

Page 4120

1 Bosniak population, the Croats would be placed under the command of the

2 ABiH, and where the Croats were in the majority, the Bosniaks would place

3 themselves under the command of the HVO? Do you know that?

4 A. This is just --

5 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, I truly am sorry, Mr. President, but these

6 are very important matters. Is he talking about military matters or the

7 entire civil political government? Or what's the nature of the question?

8 Because I suggest to the Chamber it's a completely different answer based

9 on the way the question is put.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe it's about the military structures

11 rather than civilian ones. Maybe the witness could clear it up when

12 he is answering this question.

13 A. That was one in a series of agreements and signed documents which

14 were not implemented and which were not binding. In fact, we can say that

15 these were proposed solutions rather than solutions themselves.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Does a signature on an international agreement in which all of the

18 European community took part and on the basis of which the Vance-Owen Plan

19 and peace were achieved appear not binding?

20 A. I do not want to answer that question.

21 Q. Will you please look at the P214? This is the exhibit in the blue

22 binder that you received. Can you please find the Croatian version.

23 A. I'm sorry, but I am a bit lost here.

24 Q. Did you find it, sir?

25 A. I did.

Page 4121












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4122

1 Q. I'll read it very slowly. "On the basis of the agreement, in line

2 with the agreements which were reached and signed at the International

3 Conference on the Former Yugoslavia and the Peace Agreement in Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina, and then in parentheses it says (Geneva Agreements), the HVO

5 of the HZ HB reached a decision at a special meeting in Mostar on 15

6 January 1993. The following decision: All units of the army of Bosnia

7 and Herzegovina currently deployed in the Regions 3, 8, and 10, which were

8 proclaimed Croatian in the Geneva Agreements, shall be subordinated to the

9 command of the main headquarters of the HVO armed forces.

10 "All units of the HVO armed forces that are currently deployed in

11 the Areas 1, 5, and 9, which were proclaimed Muslim in the Geneva

12 Agreements, shall be subordinated to the command of the General Staff of

13 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina command."

14 And then Item 4: "This decision is considered provisional and

15 shall remain in force until the Geneva agreement on the organisation of

16 Bosnia and Herzegovina and peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina is finally

17 signed."

18 And Item 6: "This decision shall be implemented by the head of

19 the Defence Department of the HVO of the Croatian community of

20 Herceg-Bosna."

21 Do you know that this decision was issued based on the Vance-Owen

22 Plan, the Geneva Agreements, which from -- which in turn flowed this order

23 of the head of the Defence Department of the HVO which was then, in turn,

24 to be implemented, in this case, HZ HB, and in the case of Muslims, the

25 General Staff of the AbiH, that is the BH side. Do you know about this?

Page 4123

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Will you now please look at Exhibit Number 215 of the Prosecutor,

3 and this would be the next one.

4 A. I have a comment on this --

5 Q. Excuse me, Witness, you need to answer my next question.

6 A. Then I'll have to come back to it at some point.

7 Q. Yes, we will go back to it if necessary.

8 Will you please open the next exhibit in the sequence; that is,

9 Exhibit P215, please. You have it in front of you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, based on the decision of the HVO, of the HZ HB,

12 this was back in item 6 of the other document, Bruno Stojic, who was the

13 head of the department at the time, brought -- issued an order which was

14 identical order to the one which we had looked at a moment ago; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the alleged ultimatum was published in a newspaper. We only

18 know that the name of the newspaper is "Borba," and it's also there in

19 your clutch of documents, and that's all. And on the basis of this

20 newspaper article, you concluded that these orders and these decisions

21 were actually ultimatums?

22 A. No, not on the basis of a newspaper article.

23 Q. So you did it on the basis of these decisions and orders?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 4124

1 A. These decisions were considered provisional, and we considered

2 them provisional, as is stated here, not final. However, the Croatian

3 side --

4 Q. Excuse me, let me lead you by questions, with your permission.

5 I'm in the role of asking questions. It's just simply my position, so

6 please be so kind to ask you --

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you have to allow this witness to

8 finish his answering. He did not finish his answering of the question.

9 Yes.

10 A. I need to voice my objection or complaint because some questions

11 really require explanations. They are not -- they cannot be answered with

12 a simple yes or no. The Chamber will not be able to gain a full

13 understanding if I were to answer some questions with just yes or no.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

15 Q. I will take into consideration your objection, and let me ask you

16 the following question, sir: On the basis of binding -- of binding

17 international agreements, as was the one in Geneva --

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?

19 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, this is improper. All that's been put in

20 front of the witness are two documents by the HVO. This is the HVO

21 interpretation. Now, if Mr. Krsnik has signed international documents

22 recognition treaties, signed by all the parties, then I suggest he may put

23 those in front of the witness and ask him questions.

24 I don't think, frankly, Mr. Krsnik is getting the answers he

25 thinks he's getting because only a few minutes ago, for instance, after a

Page 4125

1 long statement about this document, he asked the witness, "Do you know

2 about it?" The witness said yes. He didn't say he agreed with it. He

3 said, "I know, I know about the document." I don't think the Chamber is

4 being assisted, Your Honour, by looking at one-sided documents. So I

5 object to having a question put to the witness which mischaracterises the

6 facts. Have the international agreement that the parties signed, if there

7 is one, put in front of the witness and give him a chance to explain it.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that Defence counsel has the right to

9 ask the document from one side, but we have to allow this witness to do

10 some explanations on this issue. For instance, as the previous question,

11 the witness has not finished his answer. We haven't received that

12 answer. We gave this witness another chance, but you asked another

13 question, Mr. Krsnik. That's not fair. The witness says that this

14 agreement was regarded as temporary and the Croatian side -- then you

15 stopped him. Let him answer the questions.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you see that I ask

17 questions and take answers with full respect, but allow me to respond to

18 the comments of the Prosecution.

19 JUDGE LIU: No, no, no, no, no. We have made rulings already on

20 this issue. We don't want you to engage in the argument between the two

21 sides. We will give more opportunity to the witness for him to answer the

22 questions.

23 A. May I?

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Excuse me, if you will allow me, I will move on. Yesterday, if

Page 4126

1 I --

2 JUDGE CLARK: I think the Court just ruled that the witness should

3 be allowed to answer a question about five minutes back, and it's gone off

4 my screen so I can't see it, but I think the Court ruled that he should be

5 allowed to finish his response. I don't know how to make the screen go

6 back; otherwise, I'd do it.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour.


9 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm not standing to object.

10 A. Your Honours, may I -- may I give an explanation? Thank you.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Witness. You just told us you regarded this as

12 temporary agreement, and then you said that the Croatian side -- then you

13 were stopped. Please continue.

14 A. The Croatian side considered that agreement the final one. That

15 means they prejudiced the solution. Something that was in the form of a

16 proposal, they took things that they wanted, that on the basis of our

17 experience, of the Bosniak side, with the HVO, with the Croatian

18 component, which never behaved in an open and sincere manner, we could not

19 allow that our -- we could not allow ourselves to turn over our defence to

20 the HVO.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik. You may continue.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Witness, my first question was whether these decisions were

24 adopted pursuant to orders and internationally signed agreements of the

25 Minister of Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina. If you recall, that was my

Page 4127

1 initial question.

2 A. Who was the Minister of Defence at that time?

3 Q. The Minister of Defence in the government of Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina at that time -- in which at that time all three ethnic groups

5 participated, and on the basis of agreement of the three parties, Mr. Bozo

6 Rajic was appointed Minister of Defence?

7 A. It is very important that we should know this, and that is why I

8 asked. Because Bozo Rajic in all his public utterances was spokesperson

9 for the HVO, and he was a minister who never took office and never went to

10 Sarajevo but, instead, only served interests of the Croatian community of

11 Herceg-Bosna.

12 Q. Witness, this was not his personal decision but, rather, the

13 decision of the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina. On the basis of

14 that decision, a person who is a minister of a certain department was to

15 write such an order; do you know that or not?

16 A. Mr. Bozo Rajic was appointed to the post of Minister of Defence of

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina but never took over the post.

18 Q. Very well. Thank you.

19 Witness, you said that you and the ABiH always fought for a

20 unified and indivisible Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm going to offer a

23 document. I would like to ask the registrar -- sorry, the usher to

24 distribute this document. It is only in Croatian language. The document

25 is being translated, but it is not finished, so I will ask for the

Page 4128

1 assistance of interpreters.

2 Can we have it marked temporarily as D1/24.


4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness, would you please turn to page 2 of the document and tell

6 me whether that is your signature.

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. Is this a letter that you, Mr. Zijad Demirovic, and Faruk Cupina

9 [phoen] sent to Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, and it is entitled "A warning from

10 Mostar"?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Will you please turn to page 2, now, second paragraph, sixth

13 sentence. Will you please read that full sentence or anything else, but I

14 would like to especially point out that sentence: "In these conditions,

15 the imperative is ..." and so on. That's the beginning of the sentence.

16 A. Somebody was adding things here.

17 Q. In this sentence, nobody added anything.

18 A. This may be a proposed solution of some issues that were a topic

19 at the time.

20 Q. Will you please read the sentence.

21 A. Can you, again, tell me which one?

22 Q. Then I'll read it.

23 "In such conditions, the imperative is that a division of Bosnia

24 into three ethnically based provinces, with the Muslim province in the

25 Neretva River valley ..." Is this the text? In other words, you

Page 4129

1 advocated division?

2 A. No, never, because that is not the spirit of this letter. We said

3 if it is inevitable, if the division is into ethnically -- along ethnic

4 lines inevitable, then the Bosniaks would agree to nothing but this,

5 should it happen. And we were never advocating that.

6 Q. Let me read the penultimate paragraph.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

8 MR. SCOTT: I object to this procedure. The Chamber has now

9 ruled, since the first week of trial, on a set of procedures to be

10 followed with documents. The Prosecution has worked very hard to try to

11 comply with the Court's rulings. One of the requirements, I believe, is

12 that any exhibit be placed -- be interpreted into at least English or

13 French. We are completely unable to follow this evidence, the

14 cross-examination. I don't know to what extent other sentences or phrases

15 are omitted. I cannot follow at all what's happening without having been

16 provided the documents, as this Chamber has ordered, now several times,

17 including, again, just recently the other day.

18 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, could I know the sources of this document,

19 where did you get this document? Are there any translations of this

20 document?

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. President and Your Honours, the

22 gentleman himself verified the authenticity of this document. He signed

23 it, and this is why I proceeded. I received this document through my

24 investigators. They will in due course confirm its authenticity. Nothing

25 was omitted and nothing was added except for a remark of my legal

Page 4130












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4131

1 assistant. As you can see, it is handwritten, and it is a comment, a

2 note. And I will read it to you. And it is just something that was done

3 in the process of our work. And with the interpreter's help, let me read

4 it to you.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, this Trial Chamber will certainly

6 not accept this document with a note put by your investigators, and not

7 alone. There is no English translation for this document.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we will actually file a

9 motion today asking for a Status Conference to discuss various matters.

10 The Defence is making superhuman efforts to abide by your ruling on

11 continuation of this case in chief. We simply were unable to finish the

12 translation. I think we have about 1.000 documents - and I'm just giving

13 you a rough estimate of 1.000 documents - which are in the process of

14 being translated. But these are two very short excerpts. The document is

15 signed. We believe that the letter is very important because, in later

16 stages, you will come to realise how important this document is. And I

17 can read this note or remark to you. It also will be translated into

18 English. So if -- with your permission, I will just finish reading this

19 excerpt and the handwritten note and then I will finish with this.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, as an exception, I could allow you

21 to read certain paragraphs and those handwritten, but as a rule -- but as

22 a rule, we could not accept this document as evidence as it is. At least

23 you have to provide us with a clean copy, with the translations into the

24 other language. This is the rule we made.

25 Of course, you have full right to make a motion concerning any

Page 4132

1 conferences, especially the Status Conference.

2 You may proceed.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

4 Q. So I'm reading the penultimate section: "If the only way out for

5 us as human beings, and as neighbours, is the continuation of war with all

6 new sacrifices and consequences and victims, we shall do our best to fully

7 mobilise Muslims in this area as early as possible."

8 Above the words, "we are ready," there is an arrow and a note:

9 "They did not conduct mobilisation against the Chetniks." That's the

10 note.

11 My question is: On the 5th of January, 1993, against who were you

12 prepared to mobilise all the Muslims in Herzegovina?

13 A. This document has to be understood in the following way, addressed

14 to Mr. Izetbegovic in his negotiating position. If - if - there is a

15 territorial division, he would have our support, and that he should simply

16 take into consideration our requests.

17 I would like to remind the Trial Chamber, with their permission,

18 that it would be a good thing to read the paragraph from the beginning,

19 not only the second part of the paragraph, and you have deliberately

20 avoided that.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you know, this is the very problem

22 of this issue, that you cannot read a paragraph out of context. So that's

23 why this Trial Chamber made a ruling that you have to submit this document

24 with its translation so that at least we could see the whole picture of

25 the situation.

Page 4133

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am giving the entire

2 letter. I am going to tender it in its entirety. I gave it to the

3 witness in his own language, and only in order to save time, I've read two

4 sections. If I were to read out the whole thing, I think I'd take up too

5 much time. I am going to tender the entire letter.

6 A. Allow me, please --

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, before this Trial Chamber, the

8 fairness should prevail over the efficiency. We have to be fair to the

9 witness, to the other side.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm certainly trying to

11 be that. Had I not presented this document today, I think I would have

12 acted against the interests of the witness and the Defence, and I thought

13 it was far more important to present this in the witness's language, and

14 it's the language he understands. It was more important, I think, than

15 only the translation, so ...

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, can you skip this document for the later

17 stage? Because we cannot judge just out of certain paragraphs from this

18 document. But I could promise you that we'll receive this document with

19 the translations, then we'll consider whether to admit it into evidence or

20 not at a later stage.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Certainly. Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Witness, are you familiar with the programme of the SDA party?

23 A. I do, superficially. I wouldn't have to be familiar with it, with

24 that programme.

25 Q. Tell me, Witness: Are you familiar with the "Islamic

Page 4134

1 Declaration"?

2 A. I have already said that I was not a member of any party, the SDA

3 included. That is in response to your first question. I am aware of the

4 "Islamic Declaration," the book that Mr. Alija Izetbegovic wrote.

5 Q. Are you aware of the fact that because of that book, the "Islamic

6 Declaration," Mr. Izetbegovic was sentenced to many years in prison

7 because of the -- his extremist views?

8 A. I am aware of the fact that Mr. Izetbegovic was convicted, not

9 because of his extremist views but because of the prohibition of freedom

10 of thought in the communist regime, freedom of expression and writing.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was informed today

12 from the Registry that they will not have it translated for me because I

13 had given it to them to have it translated for this person. They told me

14 that it was already translated for the OTP. And I am going to present

15 some positions from the "Islamic Declaration." Perhaps I'll do that at a

16 later stage, but I would like to ask them for translation of the "Islamic

17 Declaration," of course, unless the gentlemen from the OTP have the

18 "Islamic Declaration" translated here with them.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott? Yes.

20 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, in direct contrast to what we have

21 witnessed over the past 20 minutes, the translation is here. It has been

22 provided. I'm happy to provide it to counsel. And here it is, through

23 the usher. I think English translations could be provided to us of

24 Defence documents.

25 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, I find this very strange, because all

Page 4135

1 those documents you use in your cross-examination, you ask the other side

2 to provide the translation. Don't you think it is strange for the normal

3 proceedings? I have never come across these kind of things, at least in

4 my jurisdiction.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] By your leave, Your Honour, I have

6 just respectfully explained that I had given it for translation and that

7 the Registry gave me an answer to the effect of what had actually

8 happened. And that is precisely what I wished to do, in line with your

9 ruling. I have the maximum and deepest respect for each and every one of

10 your rulings. But as you can see, time has proven to be quite a

11 difficulty.

12 Your Honours, the "Islamic Declaration" is a very important issue

13 because it is fundamental for the SDA programme. I'm not going to put

14 questions about that now, but I shall certainly tender it later.

15 JUDGE LIU: And another thing is that if you need that translation

16 from the Prosecutor's side, you have to do it outside the courtroom,

17 rather than during the proceedings. We cannot spend so much time

18 discussing about all those translations, and who will provide these

19 translations.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm very embarrassed. I

21 found this piece of information in my locker only 10 minutes ago. I have

22 it here, the note that I found in my locker. It's the note that came from

23 the Registry. I do apologise. I found this note only 10 minutes ago when

24 I was coming back from the break, that the gentlemen from the OTP have a

25 translation of it. I have the note here, handwritten.

Page 4136

1 Well, very well. We'll move on to a completely different

2 subject.

3 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, can I ask you a question in relation to

4 the cross-examining of this witness. Is it your case that because of

5 certain documents that were published by one side or the other, that this

6 was a reason why 20 mosques in the Mostar area should have been almost

7 razed to the ground? If you feel this aspect of the case is extremely

8 relevant, can't you call an expert witness? But at the moment, the value

9 of this witness's evidence is that he personally saw, examined, and is

10 aware of the systematic destruction of places of worship in the area where

11 he is the Mufti. Now, are we ever going to get to the point where you're

12 going to deal with that aspect of this witness's evidence? Is it in

13 dispute that these 20 mosques were razed to the ground on direct orders

14 and following a plan?

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour. Thank you

16 for your suggestion. I will deal with this, and that is precisely where I

17 wish to go, and that is why I am preparing a kind of background through my

18 questions, because this is the finale, so to speak.

19 I am doing this for the sake of the Trial Chamber, not for my own

20 sake. If I'm not doing this well, I'm so sorry. I precisely want to

21 paint a picture for you and to paint this picture through my questions,

22 just like the direct examination showed various things relying on the

23 Geneva conventions, but then we also want to prove things that are

24 truthful and we want to prove them from the point of view of the Defence

25 case.

Page 4137

1 JUDGE CLARK: You see, Mr. Krsnik, there's no charge in the

2 indictment that anybody failed to adhere to the heads of agreement in the

3 Geneva Convention. The problems that you have to deal with are the

4 accusations that are made specifically against your clients, and as I

5 understand it, the accusations that this witness is making, or that he's

6 assisting the Prosecution in making, is that all the Muslim places of

7 worship in the Mostar region were destroyed. And you know full well what

8 the Geneva Convention and the rules of warfare say about that:

9 deliberately destroyed. So you must address that. In due course, of

10 course, you can call a witness to give background. We appreciate that

11 there are two sides. But specifically, you must deal with the accusations

12 that have been made against Mr. Naletilic. I'm sorry if I keep labouring

13 this.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. And I shall

15 certainly bear this in mind. Actually, I am bearing this in mind. But in

16 order to paint a broader picture, and in order to understand what preceded

17 certain events - because nothing happens by accident - and once we get to

18 the mosques, then you will hear my questions, because it's not such a

19 simple question as it was put during the examination-in-chief.

20 Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Honourable witness, do you know Hafiz Halil efendi Meftic?

22 A. I do.

23 Q. Do you know Hasan Makic, who is a professor?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. Could you please be so kind as to tell this Trial Chamber what the

Page 4138

1 Meshihat of the Islamic Community of Bosnia-Herzegovina is?

2 A. That is the supreme authority in the Islamic community.

3 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the Meshihat of the Islamic

4 Community issued some instructions that are called "Instructions for

5 Muslim Combatants" and every Muslim combatant had them in his pocket?

6 A. As far as I know, this book was created in Zenica. I don't know

7 if every soldier carried it. It depended on each and every soldier's own

8 will.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, we

10 got this translation on time. All of it is here. There are enough copies

11 for all. So I would kindly ask the usher to have this distributed to all

12 the parties, please. And for the gentleman, for our distinguished

13 witness, we have a copy in the Croatian version.

14 THE REGISTRAR: This exhibit is D1/25.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?

16 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I've only been handed this exhibit, so

17 of course, I can't completely know admittedly, but it seems that we are

18 about to get into an area that implicates the submission that the

19 Prosecution made a week or so ago in terms of such things what is called

20 tu quoque and other issues in -- actually, we would say non-issues, in the

21 case. Assuming for the moment that this document is what Mr. Krsnik says

22 it is and assuming it says something about Muslim soldiers committing war

23 crimes - I'm just simply making a fast characterisation - assuming all

24 that's true, how is it relevant to this case and how is it relevant to an

25 acceptable defence in the case?

Page 4139












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Page 4140

1 I believe the jurisprudence of the Tribunal, coming from such

2 cases as Kupreskic, is that if such evidence will be tendered to the

3 Chamber, the Defence has to make a particularised showing as to how it is

4 relevant to the case. That is what the Kupreskic Chamber ruled. I think

5 other chambers have made similar rulings. And we object without that

6 showing being made.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, these documents have just been

8 distributed. You haven't heard the questions raised by Mr. Krsnik, so all

9 your objection is based on the speculations. So let me hear the questions

10 first. Then you will have full opportunity to object to what he's asking.

11 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE LIU: And for your information, unfortunately, I'm sitting

13 on the Kupreskic Appeals Chamber.

14 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. You're absolutely right.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Does this booklet contain instructions as to how the soldiers of

18 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina are supposed to behave?

19 A. I would have to read the book, and then I could answer you.

20 Q. I agree. I have quite a few questions, so perhaps I can leave you

21 this copy. I am going to ask for a tape to be played now, D1/25. This is

22 a 20-minute-long tape. So we won't be able to finish the

23 cross-examination today. So I'll leave you that copy of the book, and

24 then we shall continue discussing it tomorrow.

25 A. With the permission of the Trial Chamber, one has to be familiar

Page 4141

1 with the subject matter as a whole. Just as the honourable Presiding

2 Judge said a few minutes ago, you took something out of context, and you

3 left out the central issue, where it is said that Muslims are not in

4 favour of divisions, but then with the second section, you were trying to

5 prove that we were in favour of territorial divisions so again you can

6 take a certain portion of the text out of context.

7 I read this a long time ago, and I need to refresh my memory of

8 this. These are general instructions that are valid for soldiers

9 anywhere, because this is an Islamic moral pattern, so to speak. And in

10 response to the question that you put to me, for a soldier of the army of

11 the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you cannot say that this was for

12 all of them. It is for individuals who wish their life to be governed by

13 Islamic norms.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you for your answer.

15 And now I would kindly ask the Trial Chamber to allow me to play a

16 videotape. I think that the provisional number is D1/25 or 26, Madam

17 Registrar?


19 JUDGE LIU: Well, is there any protective measures concerning with

20 this tape?

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I don't see any protective measures.

22 However, there is a brief explanation involved. We tried for two days and

23 we finally managed to make copies for the Prosecutor and for the

24 Registrar, and we made abridged copies as well. So perhaps I could kindly

25 ask the video director to fast-forward the beginning of the tape. It

Page 4142

1 contains -- this tape contains a lineup of the entire 4th Corps that we

2 have been discussing for such a long time now, so you will see that and

3 you will hear my questions.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll watch this --

5 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

7 MR. SCOTT: Is there audio to this tape, and has a transcript been

8 prepared in English?

9 JUDGE LIU: I'm not sure. I haven't seen this tape yet and where

10 it comes from. Yes.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is a comment, but

12 I would just like certain persons who are on this tape to be identified.

13 An English translation is underway, and I am going to be using this tape

14 more from now on. In this particular case, I just wish certain persons to

15 be identified. As for the authenticity of this tape, I am going to prove

16 that with a witness who will testify within the Defence case.

17 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott?

18 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, let me say I am truly sorry to be on my

19 feet so often this afternoon. I do not do it lightly, but I do believe

20 there are serious issues.

21 On this tape, if there is no transcript of what is said, then if

22 the tape is going to be played now -- excuse me, I'll wait for

23 Judge Clark. Excuse me, I was just waiting for Judge Clark. Sorry.

24 If the tape is going to be played today, and if there is audio and

25 if there is no translation of it, then I would -- at the most that only

Page 4143

1 the video portion be played and not the audio portion, since we are

2 completely unable to follow and understand what's happening. And I also

3 just have a second question for counsel just for foundation. Could we

4 have the location and date when this tape was made. We know nothing about

5 the tape as it currently stands.

6 JUDGE LIU: You have not seen this tape yet?

7 MR. SCOTT: I have seen it, Your Honour, to be perfectly honest.

8 In fairness to counsel, it was given to us yesterday afternoon. But

9 again, it's very poor quality, and there is no translation that has been

10 provided.

11 I can suggest to the Chamber, from what I have been told, it is

12 something that happened in February 1995. But if we're not going to have

13 a translation, Your Honour, we object to having the audio portion until

14 there's a translation available.

15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, would you please answer these questions.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Very gladly, Mr. President. Because

17 it is quite clear to me why the Prosecutor is objecting to the audio

18 version, and you will find it quite clear when you see the tape yourself,

19 because as for the audio part, you don't really need a translation.

20 Secondly, I'm saying this again. Again, we are having these

21 debates in front of a witness. And the witness is on this tape. And he

22 is saying something, and there are also some other questions that I cannot

23 put in advance, so to speak. First we have to play the tape and then.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters' note is that without a

25 transcript, they cannot give a translation.

Page 4144

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The authority of a religious leader

2 and whether it exists and whether it doesn't exist is something that is

3 shown on this tape, and the witness said that he attended many

4 celebrations, and this is precisely what is shown here.

5 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott.

6 MR. SCOTT: We object strongly to this procedure. The reason that

7 I am in the unfortunate position of having to be on my feet so often this

8 afternoon is because counsel has repeatedly not followed this Chamber's

9 directions. This Chamber has now, at least on three occasions, told them

10 what the instructions are and has asked them to follow those

11 instructions. We have now this afternoon been provided with two documents

12 which Mr. Krsnik apparently feels are quite important. That's his right.

13 But if they are that important, then the other side has to be able to read

14 and have those same documents in front of them. Now he says that it has

15 statements of the witness. Now those statements, we will not be able to

16 follow.

17 The simple reason that we are where we are is because counsel has

18 not followed this Chamber's rulings. If all these translations had been

19 provided, as this Chamber has ordered that they be provided, we would have

20 done this an hour ago. We would have done it an hour ago. I do object.

21 And I'm sorry, and I do apologise to the Chamber for being on my feet so

22 much this afternoon. We object.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please, please, this is

24 the Arabic language. Nobody can translate that. Please, don't make me

25 say everything in advance in front of the witness. Can this be called

Page 4145

1 cross-examination, then? I mean, really.

2 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, would you please tell us at least the

3 sources of this tape, who made it, what it is about. Just give me a

4 general idea of all this information.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] It was made by the press service of

6 the 4th Corps. It's very clear. I explained this, that I made a shorter

7 version, and now I'm going to play the longer version. And everything is

8 on the cassette itself, who taped it, who made it, even the telephone

9 number, if I'm not mistaken, where the tape could be ordered from.

10 JUDGE LIU: When?

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] This is a parade of the ABiH in

12 Jablanica in 1995. And when you see it, you will understand why I insist

13 on it in the cross-examination, because very important questions flow out

14 of that video cassette, and they concern this witness personally.

15 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, after consultations among this Chamber,

17 you are allowed to show this tape to us but without the audio part of this

18 tape. We just want to see the images.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please, the audio is

20 essential here, because it proves that the ABiH was an army of a single

21 ethnic group, of a single religion, and I am trying to impeach this

22 witness here because the audio and the words spoken here are in the Arabic

23 language. If necessary, I will spend the rest of the afternoon looking

24 for an interpreter and I can provide the translation tomorrow. The

25 interpreters, otherwise, could interpret this tape. Everything is very

Page 4146

1 slow.

2 But this is the first opportunity to see what types of armies the

3 ABiH and HVO were. This is a crucial matter. This is why we are here.

4 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, let us watch this tape first without the

5 audio part. If you think it's necessary for you to have the interpreters

6 tomorrow, we could do it once again.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [In English] Okay.

8 [Interpretation] Very well. Can I ask the technical group to

9 please play it from the top.

10 THE REGISTRAR: The video booth needs to know whether the tape is

11 cued or not. In other words, is it ready to be played at the spot where

12 you want it to start?

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] From the top, yes. Yes, it could be

14 rewound from the beginning.

15 [Videotape played].

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] If I can be of assistance to the

17 Trial Chamber, this -- the caption is, "The day of the 4th Motorised Light

18 Brigade," and then underneath, it says that it is the press service of the

19 4th Jablanica Brigade.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can we pause here, please?

22 Q. Do you recognise this person?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. Excuse me?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 4147

1 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber who it is?

2 A. This is the commander of the 4th Brigade.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. We can move on.

4 [Videotape played]

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can you pause here? If we can just

6 go back a little bit? There.

7 Q. Can you please tell me, do you recognise this flag?

8 A. That was the parade --

9 Q. No, no, no. I'm asking you about the flag. Do you recognise the

10 flag?

11 A. I was not a member of the unit, so I cannot tell you, but it has

12 some religious symbols there, even though I can't read -- I can't read the

13 text.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The cameraman's name has now appeared

17 on the screen.

18 [Videotape played]

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can you pause here, please?

20 Q. Are you among these religious dignitaries?

21 A. I don't see any religious dignitaries apart from myself.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 A. I really don't see and I can't make out anyone else.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can you please pause here?

Page 4148












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Page 4149

1 Q. Can you now see the religious dignitaries?

2 A. I see, but I can't make out their faces.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll try later on.

4 [Videotape played]

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that the

6 outside monitors are projecting an image that is five times better. I

7 don't know why we have such a poor quality of image in the courtroom.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can you please pause here?

10 Q. Will you please tell us the name of this gentleman and what was

11 his exact position in the 4th Corps?

12 A. This is the commander of the 4th Muslim Brigade, Mr. Nezim

13 Halilovic.

14 Q. And that is part of the 4th Corps?

15 A. Yes. The brigade was part of the 4th Corps.

16 [Videotape played].

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can you pause here.

18 Q. Do you recognise this man?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Will you tell the Trial Chamber who it is?

21 A. Hamo Maslisa [phoen].

22 Q. What was his position?

23 A. I'm not sure.

24 Q. Did he represent the SDA?

25 A. He's a lawyer by profession. He was in various positions. I

Page 4150

1 believe that he's a member of the SDA.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] We can move on. Thank you to the

4 technical booth.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Witness, is this you in the video?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 [Videotape played]

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Can you tell us today what you spoke about? Was this a speech of

13 a religious leader or a military leader? -- if you recall. If not,

14 doesn't matter.

15 A. I really have no idea. But I was not a military leader, combat

16 leader. I was a religious officer.

17 [Videotape played]

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can you pause here, please.

19 Q. Do you recognise this man?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber who it is.

22 A. This is Mahmut Karalic.

23 Q. What was his position?

24 A. He is from Zenica, from a Muslim unit there. I don't know

25 exactly.

Page 4151

1 Q. Was he not an emir?

2 A. It is possible that he was.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] We can proceed.

5 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

7 MR. SCOTT: Just by one clarification, on the transcript, the

8 witness a moment ago was interpreted he was a religious officer. I just

9 would appreciate some translation guidance. Did he say "religious

10 officer" or "religious official"? Maybe the witness could also clarify.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Witness. Could you tell us whether it is

12 "officer" or "official."

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I said a dignitary.

14 JUDGE LIU: I'm asking the question to the witness himself, what

15 he said.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gentleman said "commander" or

17 some military commander of some kind, and I said, "No, I was not

18 military. I didn't have a rank, and I did not have any position." So I

19 was an officer of faith or a religious official or a dignitary, as the

20 gentleman put it.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] There is about ten minutes left, Your

22 Honours, and we will have a full translation tomorrow. So maybe tomorrow

23 we can play the full tape complete with the video, but we will provide the

24 video for tomorrow -- a transcript of the audio tomorrow.

25 JUDGE LIU: I see. We recognise that this tape was shot in 1995.

Page 4152

1 How is it related to the incidents that happened in 1993?

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in 1995, when the peace

3 was reached, there were calls for the jihad. Tomorrow when you see the

4 translation, you will see a connection between 1993 and 1995. You will

5 see what things were like in 1995 in relation to 1993. That is the same

6 corps that we have been dealing with throughout this case, which was

7 created in late 1992, and because it had to be transferred to Jablanica

8 because the Washington Accords stipulated that there be no military

9 presence in Mostar, they were transferred to -- relocated to Jablanica.

10 And with the other evidence that we will provide later on, we will counter

11 the allegations by the Prosecution. Of course, this is not complete now

12 because my learned friend was successful with his objection, but we will

13 make a superhuman effort to provide a full transcript by tomorrow.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, on another matter, does this tape have a

15 number? Because as I understand that, instructions to the Muslim

16 fighters, this document, was numbered D1/25. So I wonder whether this

17 tape has got a number. Maybe Madam Registrar could clear it up for me.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. I'd given it a number

19 previously. It's D1/26.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE LIU: We will adjourn until tomorrow.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

24 4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

25 the 19th day of October, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.