Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4233

 1                          Monday, 22 October 2001

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is Case Number

 7    IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Naletilic, have you been seen by a doctor?

 9            THE ACCUSED NALETILIC: [Interpretation] Yes, and I had a scan, my

10    lungs, my neck.  I wasn't seen by a doctor, though.  We are waiting for

11    the report, and then they will call me.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  How are you feeling now?

13            THE ACCUSED NALETILIC: [Interpretation] The same, the same as

14    before.  No change.

15            JUDGE LIU:  I see.  Take care of yourself.  You may sit down.

16            I would like to draw the parties' attention to some changes in the

17    trial schedule for the coming weeks.  Mr. Seric, this might be

18    particularly interesting for you to schedule the visits of your client's

19    family with the registrar.

20            Tomorrow afternoon session will start at 3.00 because of the

21    Kupreskic appeal judgment.  So we have to start a little bit late.  As you

22    know, on Wednesday, October 24th, there is a UN holiday, so there will be

23    no court session.  On Monday, October 29th, the next status conference in

24    the Milosevic case.  Due to security reasons, no other trial will be held

25    on that day.  Therefore, we will not sit on October 29th.

Page 4234

 1            Notwithstanding a possible change of the trial hours due to the

 2    outcome of the medical report on Mr. Naletilic's status of health, which

 3    we'll receive as of November the 1st, we'll sit in the first and second

 4    week of November during the regular court hours.  In the third week of

 5    November, due to the arrival of the new Judges, there are some changes on

 6    the 22nd and the 23rd of November.  On Thursday, 22nd, we will sit only

 7    from 9.30 to 12.00, in the morning.  In the afternoon, the new Judges will

 8    give their solemn declaration in this courtroom.  On Friday, November

 9    23rd, an extraordinary plenary will take place in the morning.  We will,

10    therefore, not sit on that day.

11            In December, we will sit during the normal court days in the first

12    week of December.  In the second week, there is a plenary from Wednesday,

13    the 12th, until Friday, the 14th.  We will, therefore, only be able to sit

14    on December 10th and 11th in the second week of December.  The Christmas

15    Court recess starts on December 17th.  The Tribunal will be recessed until

16    January the 4th, 2002.  Thank you.

17            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President.

18            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Scott.

19            MR. SCOTT:  I take it -- I don't have a calendar in front of me.

20    I apologise.  Does that effectively mean that the 11th of December will be

21    our last court day before Christmas?

22            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, I guess so, for this year.

23            MR. SCOTT:  In terms of the 29th of October, there being no court

24    on that Monday, I wonder whether the Court would entertain having a full

25    Court day on Friday to help make up for that time.

Page 4235

 1            JUDGE LIU:  I'm not quite sure at this moment.  I have to consult

 2    with my colleagues concerning the time schedule.

 3            MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Scott, are you ready for your next witness?

 5            MR. SCOTT:  Yes, Your Honour.  Mr. Poriouvaev will be handling the

 6    next witness.

 7            JUDGE LIU:  Yes?

 8            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would like to discuss

 9    some questions relevant to our next witness in private session first.

10            JUDGE LIU:  Well, we will go to the private session.

11            Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

12            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one question.

13    Perhaps we didn't understand very well.  Are we starting tomorrow at 3.00

14    or is the break prolonged until 3.00 tomorrow?

15            JUDGE LIU:  The break will be prolonged until 3.00.

16            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

17            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  The witness who is called -- sorry, sorry.

18                          [Private session]

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 6                          [Open session]

 7            JUDGE LIU:  We are now in the open session.  Witness, you may sit

 8    down, please.

 9                          Examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

10       Q.   Witness, your request for protective measures has been granted by

11    the Trial Chamber.  You will have a pseudonym and you will be called in

12    the Court Witness BB or Witness Double B, and you also will have facial

13    distortion.  Now the usher will give you a sheet of paper.  You should

14    read it but don't read it aloud, and if everything is all right, you may

15    say yes or no, if your name is correctly spelled and your birthday is

16    correct.

17       A.   Yes.

18            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Shall I proceed?

19            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, yes, please.

20            MR. PORIOUVAEV:

21       Q.   Witness BB, did you have any military training in the former

22    Yugoslavia?

23       A.   Yes.  The school for reserve officers in Karlovac.

24       Q.   When did you have this training?

25       A.   1976.  The training was six months long, and then I went for

Page 4239

 1    additional training in the rank of -- in the rank of sergeant, interim

 2    sergeant.  And then after I got out, I had five or six drills, because

 3    that was the system in the former Yugoslavia.  So I eventually got the

 4    rank of reserve captain.

 5       Q.   Did you belong to any military formation in 1992 and 1993?

 6       A.   Yes.  In 1992, from the beginning of July, I belonged to an HVO

 7    unit, the 4th Battalion more precisely, the group for maintenance of

 8    facilities.  The command was at Rondo, and I spent three months in Tihomir

 9    Misic Barracks, located on the left bank of the Neretva River.

10       Q.   Who was the commander?

11       A.   At the outset, in the barracks, it was a certain Mr. Mikolic and

12    then he was replaced by a new commander whom I don't remember, and the

13    commander of the 4th Battalion was Misic.

14       Q.   How long did you remain within the 4th Battalion of the HVO?

15       A.   I remained in the 4th Battalion of the HVO until the attack on the

16    Vranica building on the 9th of May, 1992.

17       Q.   Could you recount what happened on the 9th of May in Mostar?

18            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, the year was 1993.

19       A.   I lived on the Vranica building on the second floor which had a

20    view of the School of Economics.  Below me was the entrance to the command

21    of the Mostar Brigade on the right-hand side; and on the left-hand side,

22    there was the command of the BH army corps.  Around 1500 hours, an

23    UNPROFOR tank, which was located at the intersection of Stjepan Radica and

24    Ante Zvonica Streets, and it had been standing there for 10 or 15 days

25    already, because tensions were growing between the BH army and the HVO,

Page 4240

 1    was this located.  And since I wake up very easily, I heard the tank move

 2    and leave.  Around 10 to 5.00, the first grenade hit the room where I

 3    was --

 4       Q.   We will stop for a moment.

 5            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  I would like the usher to show the witness

 6    Exhibit Number P11.8 and get ready Exhibits 16.4 and 16.5, I mean

 7    P exhibits, of course.

 8            Mr. Usher, place Exhibit Number 11.8 on the ELMO.  There is

 9    something wrong with the monitor, I suggest.

10            JUDGE CLARK:  Can I just take this opportunity to ask you whether

11    the transcript, which shows that around 1500 hours, the UNPROFOR tank, do

12    you mean that's 3.00 in the afternoon?

13       A.   No, it was 3.00 a.m., 3.00 a.m.

14            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  3.00 a.m., yes.

15            THE REGISTRAR:  The audio/video booth just informed me that

16    something is wrong with the ELMO and they are fixing it in a second.

17            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Okay.  Then we can do without the exhibits maybe

18    at this point, unfortunately.  I would like the Trial Chamber to see

19    something more.

20            JUDGE LIU:  I hope it could be fixed during the break.

21            Okay, sure, thank you.

22            MR. PORIOUVAEV:

23       Q.   Witness, then in the circumstances, we should proceed with the

24    testimony.  Please, go ahead.

25       A.   After the first shell from a hand-held launcher, shooting started

Page 4241

 1    from all sides, from infantry weapons, from anti-aircraft cannons, from I

 2    don't know what else.  All the tenants in the building, which is 11 floors

 3    high, ran down to the cellar to find shelter because they didn't know what

 4    was going on.  Down in the cellar we remained that entire day, the 9th,

 5    the entire night between the 9th and the 10th, and the day of the 10th

 6    until 11.00 when HVO units arrived and took control of the cellar,

 7    captured the cellar.  Of course, the tenants ran back to their

 8    apartments.

 9            Then through a public address system, the commander of the ATG

10    group, anti-terrorist group, Juka Prazina, made an announcement and asked

11    the army to surrender.  There were about 10 soldiers who took off their

12    uniforms and put on civilian clothes.  Then one gentleman talked to Juka

13    Prazina also through the public address system on behalf of the civilians

14    and said that both the civilians and those soldiers who took off their

15    uniforms would, indeed, surrender and get out.  At that moment, three

16    floors, three top-most floors and two floors -- two first floors were

17    already burning on the side of the School of Economics, and the -- it was

18    becoming insufferable inside the building.  And judging by the -- after

19    the conversation between Juka Prazina and this gentleman who spoke on

20    behalf of the civilians, they agreed, and the civilians began leaving the

21    building.  We got out into Radica Street where we were met by Jusuf Juka

22    with his fighting men --

23       Q.   I will you stop here for a moment because the ELMO is all right

24    now.  We can use our exhibits.

25            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  So Exhibit P11.18, I see here.  It's a map.

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 1            THE REGISTRAR:  I have P11.8.

 2            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  18, I'm sorry.  It's a mistake.  Awfully sorry

 3    for that.

 4            You may place the map of Mostar on the ELMO.

 5       Q.   Witness BB, would you indicate on the map the place where Vranica

 6    building was located?  Just indicate it with the pointer.

 7       A.   The Vranica building was located right here.

 8       Q.   Just for the record, please, name the street.

 9       A.   Stjepan Radica Street, and there was a small street here by the

10    name of Spojna between the School of Economics, which is located here, and

11    the Vranica building, which is located here.

12       Q.   Would you just draw a sketch of the building with the marker?

13       A.   Yes.  The School of Economics, this is Vranica, this is the

14    extension of these buildings, and this here is the School of Economics.

15       Q.   You may just put "BB" on the sketch.  You indicated Vranica

16    building?

17       A.   [Marks]

18            THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please approach the microphone

19    when questioning?  Thanks.

20            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Okay.  Thank you very much.  Now I ask you to

21    place on the ELMO Exhibit number P16.4.

22       Q.   Witness, what depicts this picture?

23       A.   This is the Vranica building after the attack of the Croatian

24    Defence Council that --

25    [redacted]

Page 4244

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 8            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Now -- thank you.  Now you may place Exhibit

 9    16.5.

10       Q.   Which part of the building is it?  I mean, there is some entrance

11    to the building.  To which area does it lead?

12       A.   This is the entrance to the corps command and this was to the

13    [redacted]

14    [redacted]

15            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you probably understand

16    what I'm trying to say.  He was -- the witness was only supposed to show

17    the entrance to the building.

18   [redacted]

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Page 4245

 1            MR. PORIOUVAEV:

 2       Q.   Witness BB, did you participate in the defence of the building

 3    along with army soldiers?

 4       A.   No.  I did not participate.  I was with the other civilians.

 5       Q.   Did you know Juka Prazina before?

 6       A.   Not personally.  I knew him from sight.  He had come to Mostar a

 7    number of times to Banovac and other places, but it was a name that was

 8    well -- Balinovac.  It was a well-known name.

 9       Q.   Was Juka's unit or his soldiers the only ones you saw in the

10    street on the 10th of May?

11       A.   No.  When we were all brought to the yard of the School of

12    Economics, which was facing the avenija -- I saw Colonel Zelijko Bosnjak

13    from the Convicts Battalion with six or seven of his soldiers.  They were

14    standing off to the side, and they had a red, white and blue insignia.

15    Juka's fighters were in front of us.  Juka had brought out all the young

16    ones out, and five or six of us who were a bit older.  He first asked

17    whether there were any civilians among them.  There were some.  He told

18    them to go home.  The others whom they did not separate out had to go to

19    the Velez stadium, which is at the Bijeli Brijeg.  He kept us there for

20    about two hours.  He checked our documents.  That is, his fighters did.

21    If they found any money in wallets, they took that money.  Then after

22    that, in a column, two by two, he led us through on to Ante Zvonica

23    Street, to the HVO ministry.  This is what it was called at that time.

24    That was in the old building of the Zagreb Bank, and there we were met by

25    Tuta, Misic, Primorac, commander, I believe, of the corps.  There were

Page 4246

 1    another 100 men in uniform there.

 2       Q.   Witness, would you point and just answer my question.  You just

 3    told that you saw -- you had seen Zeljko Bosnjak, and he was a member of

 4    the Convicts Battalion.  Did you know Zeljko Bosnjak before?

 5       A.   Just superficially, because he used to install poker machines in

 6    coffee bars and things like that so I knew him from there.

 7       Q.   And how did you learn that he was a member of the Convicts

 8    Battalion?

 9       A.   When we were at Siroki Brijeg, I saw him when we worked on a

10    canal, I saw him along with Tuta, and we knew that he was a colonel with

11    the Convicts Battalion.

12       Q.   And now you may go ahead with what happened at the -- in the area

13    of Ministry of Defence, when you saw Tuta.

14       A.   Yes.  Tuta, Misic, Juka, and Primorac were at the head of the

15    column where there was a member of the army who had to carry a picture of

16    Sefer Halilovic which was given to him personally by Juka.  And then Tuta,

17    holding a Motorola in his hand, hit this person whose name I don't want to

18    mention now.  He hit him in the face.  He broke his Motorola against his

19    face, and the man was all bloodied.  Misic then jumped in and started to

20    curse our balijas mothers, saying that we had killed his son.  And then

21    general chaos ensued.  The ones who were -- who had been standing to the

22    side started beating anybody in the column.  Misic pulled out his pistol

23    and shot around.  Juka Prazina also jumped in, and I believe Primorac as

24    well, and said that he had promised us that we would not be touched.

25            Then Tuta said, verbatim, "Take this to Siroki and execute them."

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Page 4248

 1    They placed us on a bus, which had been prepared previously.  They led us

 2    in, and Juka took the man who had been hit by Tuta with Motorola and

 3    placed him in his car, so he never went with us to Siroki Brijeg.

 4       Q.   Will you stop here, Witness.  And now we should clarify some

 5    questions.  You just explained to the Trial Chamber that one of the

 6    persons you saw in the area of the ministry was Tuta.

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Did you know him before?  Did you see him before?

 9       A.   Only by sight, yes, but I did used to see him.  At Cim.  That was

10    a well-known restaurant, that is where I had seen him before.  And I knew

11    that that was him.

12            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Now, Your Honour, I think that we should go into

13    private session for some minutes because the witness did not give us a

14    name of a person who was hit by Tuta.  I think that you will need this

15    name.

16            JUDGE LIU:  We will go to the private session.

17                          [Private session]

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23                          [Open session]

24            MR. PORIOUVAEV:

25       Q.   Witness, let's just dwell a little bit on Tuta.  Can you describe

Page 4250

 1    him.

 2       A.   Yes.  Shortish.

 3       Q.   [Previous translation continued]...

 4       A.   Excuse me, I did not understand you.

 5       Q.   At the moment you saw him, how he looked like that moment.  That's

 6    what I want to hear from you.

 7       A.   Again I didn't -- how did he look?  He looked angry, but he was

 8    shortish with a beard, skinny, very characteristic looking.

 9       Q.   Was he dressed in a uniform?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Do you remember what kind of uniform was on him?

12       A.   Camouflage.

13       Q.   Did he have patches, badges?

14       A.   We were very afraid.  We did not look out for that.

15       Q.   And did you notice how the people surrounding him were treating

16    him, were treating Tuta?  I mean, how did they address him?  Did they

17    pronounce any military rank or something like that, or his name or

18    something like that?

19            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Meek.

20            MR. MEEK:  Mr. President, Your Honours, I must object to the

21    suggestive and leading question.  Thank you.

22            JUDGE LIU:  It's a suggestive and leading question,

23    Mr. Prosecutor.

24            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  I apologise for that.

25            JUDGE LIU:  You have to rephrase your question.

Page 4251

 1            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Yes, yes.

 2       Q.   Okay, the first question was how the people surrounding Tuta were

 3    treating him.

 4       A.   When we arrived, the men around Tuta were all expectant.  They

 5    wanted to see what he was going to do.  Nobody addressed him because he

 6    immediately started to shout and he hit this person whom I had named.

 7            So nobody addressed him in any way.  Everybody was just waiting to

 8    see what he was going to do.

 9            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Since the witness gave a response, I withdraw my

10    two questions about the rank and the name.

11       Q.   Did you know Tuta's real name?

12       A.   Yes, Mladen Naletilic.

13       Q.   Okay.  Now, go ahead with the MUP station in Siroki Brijeg.  Had

14    you ever been there before you were taken there on the 10th of May?

15       A.   No, never.  When they brought us there in the bus, they parked it

16    in front of the MUP building.  Juka Prazina's fighters were there with us,

17    who had come in the bus with us.  They lined us up.  And the civilian

18    police also came out and they stood behind these Juka's fighters, because

19    it was clear that Juka's people were the ones in command.  And then

20    passers-by, who were passing by there because there were buildings around,

21    and they were in uniforms, they started beating us.  This went on for

22    about 15 or 20 minutes.  And then the police took us in, inside the

23    building.  They took away our belts.  We had to take everything out of our

24    pockets and leave it at the entrance.  They took us to the basement, where

25    there were two -- actually there were three solitary cells, but they first

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Page 4253

 1    filled up one and then the rest of them were brought into the second

 2    cell.  When we entered, I found there two gentlemen who, according to the

 3    story that they told us, had come there the day before.  I know their

 4    names.  I do not want to mention them.

 5            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Your Honour, could we go into private session for

 6    some seconds, maybe?

 7            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We will go to the private session.

 8                          [Private session]

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Page 4254

 1   [redacted].

 2                          [Open session]

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we are in open session.

 4            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Thank you very much.

 5       Q.   Do you know who was in command, in charge, of MUP station?

 6       A.   Yes, I do.  A man who came in camouflage uniform and who called

 7    himself Cane, and he was with the Convicts Battalion.  He was the prison

 8    warden.

 9       Q.   And who were the guards in MUP station?

10       A.   The guards were civilian police who clearly were -- did not have

11    command over the prison because two hours after we were brought there, we

12    were branded as the men from the Vranica, and men in camouflage and black

13    and other uniforms started arriving.  The police was obliged to open the

14    doors to our cells.  They came in and beat us randomly.

15       Q.   Did they beat you?

16       A.   Yes.  I was personally beaten by Romeo Blazevic, B-l-a-z-e-v-i-c,

17    and Darko Dodig also came with him, D-o-d-i-g, and a waiter whose first

18    name was Vinko, and I don't know his last name.  That was at Siroki

19    Brijeg.  They beat people in my cell, then they moved on to the next cell,

20    and they continued with the beating there.

21       Q.   Do you know to which units all those people you just gave us in

22    your testimony belong?

23       A.   Romeo Blazevic, from what we heard, was a member of the Mostar ATG

24    group, which was part of the Convicts Battalion.

25       Q.   Darko Dodig?

Page 4255

 1       A.   I don't know to which group he belonged exactly.  I also saw him

 2    later, during other incidents.

 3       Q.   What kind of food did you receive in MUP station?

 4       A.   We received one tin per six people.  I think it was something like

 5    200 grams, and a quarter of a loaf of bread per day.

 6       Q.   Did they take you outside of MUP station?

 7       A.   Yes.  Three or four days later, we were taken to a swimming pool

 8    which was perhaps 700 or 800 metres away from the MUP building, and we

 9    were to start clearing it, taking out the rocks that were inside.

10       Q.   Did you see Tuta at that time in the area of the swimming pool?

11       A.   Yes.  I did see Tuta.  Since the man who was in charge of the

12    swimming pool was one of Tuta's fighting men, nicknamed Jablanica, Tuta

13    would come to carry out an inspection, oversee the works, see how it's

14    coming along, and on one occasion, he came together with Colonel Bosnjak.

15    They didn't beat us or touch us at all then.  And after that we stayed for

16    just another four days.  Since on the seventh day we got a very harsh

17    beating from Cikota, five men from our room, from my room, and four men

18    from the next room, were taken out one by one to a room in the basement.

19            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Meek?

20            MR. MEEK:  Mr. President, Your Honours, I believe that the

21    question was very simply:  Did he see Mr. Naletilic?  He answered that

22    question.  And now he is being non-responsive to the question and I object

23    to the non-responsive nature of the answer at this point.  Thank you.

24            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, would you please guide your

25    witness to the point.

Page 4256

 1            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Yes, Your Honour, thank you very much.  But I

 2    could not stop the witness since he is willing to narrate.

 3       Q.   You mentioned now Cikota.  Do you know -- did you know his first

 4    name?

 5       A.   No, I didn't know it then.  I learned it later.

 6       Q.   When did you learn his name?

 7       A.   When he left that evening, the policemen who were taking us to

 8    wash ourselves told us the name of the man who had visited.  There were

 9    another three men from the Convicts Battalion present, together with him.

10    And the policemen then identified him for us.  That's when I learned his

11    name.

12       Q.   Do you know to which unit he belonged?

13       A.   Yes.  The Convicts Battalion.

14       Q.   Okay.  How did you know that?  How did you learn it?

15       A.   We were told that day by the policemen, and then he told us about

16    it himself.  He told us various stories, both good and bad, involving the

17    Convicts Battalion.

18       Q.   Now, Witness, since you were stopped by my learned colleague, I

19    would like to ask the question.  What happened in the basement when you

20    were taken one by one from your cell and, according to your testimony,

21    there was a harsh beating from Cikota?  Could you dwell a little bit on

22    this question.

23       A.   Yes.  Before myself, he took out two men one by one.  I was the

24    third in line.  I don't know what the criteria were.  When I got out, a

25    man about whom I later learned that he was from Rijeka was standing beside

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Page 4258

 1    him.  On the right-hand side, on a bench, there was an older plump man

 2    sitting, and then Cikota started kicking me.  Since he's tall, lanky, and

 3    long-legged, he started kicking me and beating me on the head.  And then

 4    he handcuffed me to the banister of the stairs leading into that area.

 5    He extinguished two cigarettes on my tongue and forced me to swallow them,

 6    never stopping the beating and the kicking.  All of this lasted for about

 7    15 minutes.  And then he put me back in the cell after which he moved to

 8    another cell and started taking people out from there.

 9            The next day, Cane, the warden of the prison, came and said that

10    the best thing for us would be to transfer to Ljubuski, which was about

11    15 or 20 kilometres away.  And indeed, the next day, in the afternoon, we

12    were transferred on a bus to the Ljubuski prison.

13       Q.   Witness, I just asked you about Cikota's first name, but I don't

14    see the response in the transcript.  Maybe you didn't answer my question.

15       A.   Ivan Hrkac is his name, and the nickname is Cikota.

16       Q.   Thank you.  You may proceed with Ljubuski now.

17       A.   We were brought to Ljubuski in the evening at dusk, and we were by

18    then 36.  33 of us brought from Mostar, plus two men who were already

19    there, plus another man, a professor, from Mostar who was brought just

20    with his socks on his feet, with his jaw swollen, who told us that he had

21    been beaten and brought, according to his own words, by Stela and his men,

22    Stela personally.

23            The 36 of us were taken to a cell which was about 5 metres long,

24    perhaps even less, about a metre 20, metre 30 wide.  And we calculated

25    that we had about 33 square centimetres per person.  We slept standing

Page 4259

 1    up.  Of course, you can't call it sleeping.  We stood up the whole night

 2    because we couldn't even crouch for lack of space.  The next day, we were

 3    only taken out once, for lunch.  And there we were given pork paste, which

 4    most of us didn't want to eat.  In the evening, we were taken out again,

 5    taken outside to get some air.  And then --

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Meek.

 7            MR. MEEK:  May it please, Mr. President and Your Honours, I

 8    apologise.  But I'm looking at line 8 on page 21, and it wasn't even a

 9    question.  It was just, May we proceed to Ljubuski.  So my objection would

10    be there's no question in front of this witness, number one; and number

11    two, if there was a question, he has become nonresponsive at this point.

12    Thank you.

13            JUDGE LIU:  I believe that the witness is quite responsive

14    concerning the situation in Ljubuski, but it is really not a question.

15            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  There was a question, what happened in Ljubuski?

16    I just told the witness, just what happened in Ljubuski and proceed with

17    Ljubuski.  What kind of question --

18            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Prosecutor, you have to phrase your question

19    in the form of a question, so that at least it will give some guidance to

20    the witness.

21            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  All right.

22       Q.   Witness, how were you treated in Ljubuski by the persons who were

23    in charge of the camp and other people?

24       A.   As I already said, we were taken to isolation cells, or rather one

25    isolation cell, all 36 of us.  There was no space to even crouch or to sit

Page 4260

 1    down.  The door was closed, and the small window on the door was also

 2    closed.  Since it is an old building and there are cracks in the wall in

 3    corners, the only air we got was from those cracks.  The first time we

 4    were allowed to go out was the next day for lunch, and then we were given

 5    only half an hour.  And after that, as men from Vranica, we no longer had

 6    any right to leave the cell.  The next day, we were taken out.  We were

 7    allowed to get out alone, only us, without the other prisoners.  We

 8    remained outside for ten minutes before we were brought back again.  We

 9    were taken out again for lunch.  I don't remember what we had, but it was

10    some sort of lentils or peas.  There were people from Sovici and Jablanica

11    and other places, and there were people from Mostar, some of them

12    soldiers.  Others were civilians.  In the afternoon, several of us were

13    taken out, and then came -- then arrived Ernest Takac, then a man with a

14    last name of Peric, then Pehar, nicknamed Dolma, and they started beating

15    us with all sorts of things.  There were thick electric cables tied one to

16    another, seven centimetres thick or thereabouts, and that's what they beat

17    us with.

18       Q.   Witness, do you know from which unit Ernest Takac was and also

19    another -- the second person, Pehar, whose nickname was Dolma?

20       A.   According to others, it's a group that was established in Mostar,

21    and I think they too belonged to the ATG, the anti-terrorist group.

22       Q.   How long did you stay in Ljubuski?

23       A.   We spent another night there.  And the next day, around noon,

24    there arrived Jablanica, accompanied by another two men.  There was Medic,

25    whose father owned a well-known restaurant in Mostar before the war, and

Page 4261

 1    there was another man in his entourage, and they had arrived to take 18 of

 2    us to Siroki Brijeg again to finish work on the swimming pool and other

 3    works.

 4       Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Prosecutor, would you please ask your

 6    question again?  Because we don't see it.

 7            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Sorry, sorry.

 8       Q.   Witness, you just gave -- given the name of Jablanica?

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel speak into the microphone,

10    please?

11            MR. PORIOUVAEV:

12       Q.   [No microphone] ... swimming pool?

13       A.   Yes.  He came to fetch us back, because the swimming pool wasn't

14    finished.  We had worked on it for about four days before going to

15    Ljubuski.

16       Q.   [Previous translation continues]... which unit he was?

17       A.   From the Convicts Battalion.

18       Q.   So, witness, I would like usher to place Exhibit P26.10 on the

19    ELMO.

20       A.   This is the swimming pool.

21       Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

22       A.   Okay.

23       Q.   What does this picture depict?

24       A.   This here is the swimming pool on which we worked.  First of all,

25    we removed the stones, and then we cleared the shrubbery around it, and

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Page 4263

 1    then we cleared a small brook on this side, through which the water flows

 2    and fills the pool.  The boss here was Jablanica, whom I mentioned

 3    before.  Tuta arrived across this bridge.  He would go around, inspect,

 4    together with Jablanica, because the guards who were guarding us said that

 5    the two of them together were going to turn it into sports and recreation

 6    grounds.

 7       Q.   [Previous translation continues]... exhibit away.  Witness BB, you

 8    were taken, according to your witness statement, testimony, you were taken

 9    just to the swimming pool and where were you detained at that time?  I

10    mean after Ljubuski.

11       A.   We spent only three days in prison, and then we were transferred

12    to the Tobacco Institute, which was the quarters of the Convicts Battalion

13    command.  And there we were put in a sort of hut, for our own safety, as

14    they said, because the guards who were guarding us were from the Convicts

15    Battalion.

16       Q.   [Previous translation continues]... P26.9 on the ELMO?

17            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Prosecutor, I think you have to wait until the

18    translation finishes.  For several times, we cannot get translation.  We

19    only catch half of your sentence in the transcript, and you have to speak

20    into the microphone.  I understand there is some problem with this mic,

21    but you have to be very careful to speak into the microphone.

22            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  I will try to fix it properly.

23            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

24       Q.   Witness, had you ever been in Siroki Brijeg before you were taken

25    there on the 10th of May?

Page 4264

 1       A.   In passing, yes.  I passed through Siroki Brijeg.

 2       Q.   Do you know what the picture on the ELMO means?

 3       A.   This is the old Tobacco Institute where we were imprisoned in this

 4    building here, more precisely the lower half of this building.

 5       Q.   [Previous translation continues]...  Which building do you mean?

 6       A.   Behind this building, you can see a red roof.

 7       Q.   Yes, just the building --

 8       A.   This building is outside the fence of the Tobacco Institute.

 9       Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

10       A.   Just outside this building, just outside, it doesn't belong to the

11    perimeter of the Tobacco Institute.  This red roof here in the lower half

12    of the building were us prisoners, and the other half belonged to the

13    so-called Poskok battalion.  Half of this prefab building belonged to

14    them; and in the other half, we were kept.  This here --

15       Q.   Do you mean the small building with the red roof as well?

16       A.   -- this is Tuta's command.  Because we went there to paint the

17    walls of the upstairs rooms, because Tuta was supposed to move in

18    upstairs.  We washed the carpets, cleaned the windows, and we prepared it

19    for his moving in.  There was an incident on one occasion, two of his men

20    got into a fight, and he got out to see what the noise was all about.

21       Q.   Witness, just take a marker, please, and indicate with number 1

22    the building where you were kept.

23       A.   [Marks]

24       Q.   Just with a number 1, the building where you were kept, mark with

25    marker.  Number 1.

Page 4265

 1       A.   [Marks]

 2       Q.   Yes, and now with number 2, the building where, according to your

 3    testimony, Tuta's headquarters were located.

 4       A.   [Marks]

 5       Q.   Yes.  And I see that there is a -- one construction which just

 6    reminds me of the swimming pool.  Is it the same swimming pool you were

 7    working?  I mean, just to the right side.

 8       A.   Yes, this is the swimming pool, the same swimming pool on which we

 9    had worked from the fourth day of our arrival onwards.  This is the

10    swimming pool.  This is the bridge that we used to cross.  Here was the

11    auxiliary entrance through which we got in in order to avoid crossing the

12    perimeter.

13       Q.   Please mark it with number 3.  Swimming pool.

14       A.   [Marks]

15       Q.   Thank you.  When did you finish your job on the swimming pool?

16            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  You may take away the exhibit, please.

17       A.   I can't remember exactly, but I know we worked on it for about a

18    month.

19       Q.   Were you involved in some other jobs while you were kept in the

20    Tobacco Institute?

21       A.   The Tobacco Institute, while we were there, people came.  When we

22    were returned, the day after our return, even Cikota came to take us to

23    his own house to chop wood for two days.  Those were the first two days

24    while we were still in prison, not at the Tobacco Institute.  After that,

25    we went in groups of three, four, five men to various houses.  I went to

Page 4266

 1    Mamici together with three other men to take down a wall, dig.  Then we

 2    went to Posusje, did some work in a big storage house.  It was a storage

 3    of footwear and food.  And we arranged it.  We also worked in the storage

 4    facility of the Poskok battalion.  And as far as Cikota's house is

 5    concerned, I worked there for about a month, not in a row but for five

 6    days -- for five-day intervals.  Some men went to work in Zeljko Bosnjak's

 7    house.  When you get out of Mostar -- towards Mostar from Siroki Brijeg,

 8    that's the place where he had started to build the house.  I can't

 9    remember exactly now.

10            In July, we started digging a canal, as we later realised about

11    500 metres from Tuta's house towards the main road, and in the direction

12    of the water supply reservoir.  With interruptions, we worked throughout

13    July and August, 13 of us, with another group of about 10 to 12 men,

14    prisoners, who were kept in the school building near Brkovic -- sorry,

15    Dobrkovic.

16            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Witness, could we stop here?  Because it's time

17    for the break, I think.

18            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we will resume at 11.30.

19                          --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

20                          --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

21            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, please continue.

22            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Yes, thank you.

23       Q.   Witness, I would like to check with you in one issue, just if you

24    look at paragraph 28, line 5, of the transcript, where you were talking

25    about some school building.  I would like to clarify the name of this

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Page 4268

 1    school building, because it's -- I can't make it out from our transcript.

 2    Could you repeat the name of that school?

 3       A.   Dobrkovic.

 4       Q.   Could you spell it, please?  It's not an easy name.

 5       A.   D-o-b-r-k-o-v-i-c.

 6       Q.   Dobrkovic.  Thank you.  So, witness, you've just claimed that you

 7    were working just not far from Tuta's house.  How did you learn that the

 8    house you were talking about belonged to Tuta?

 9       A.   While we worked there, I saw Tuta on two occasions coming out of

10    the door of that building, to the side of where our bus was parked.  They

11    used to bus us in, and the civilian policemen were escorting us.  On one

12    occasion, it was parked near the gate and Tuta came out and started

13    yelling at the driver and the policemen because they had parked too

14    close.  And on subsequent days, we stepped -- we would step off the bus

15    300 metres before the house, and the guards, who were members of the

16    Convicts Battalion and those who guarded us were home guards, they told us

17    that that was Tuta's house.

18       Q.   Did you work inside of the house itself or not?  I mean Tuta's

19    house.

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Did you ever approach that house?

22       A.   No, because it was fenced off.  Actually, there was a wall, a

23    stone wall, on both sides of the gate, and we passed about 30 metres away

24    from that wall.  From that vantage point, you could only see a portion of

25    the roof of the house.  We could see the house from the street on the

Page 4269

 1    other side, when we were going around.  When we were going to the

 2    Dobrkovic school, that is the side from which you could see the house.

 3    And the guards identified it as Tuta's house.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  What kind of job did you perform while working on the

 5    construction site of the canal?

 6       A.   That was a hill, I don't know, 100, 150 metres elevation, and we

 7    dug a canal, breaking the rock by the roadside, and it was about -- once

 8    it was finished, it was about 300 metres long, and it was about one metre

 9    wide and one metre deep.

10       Q.   How many hours per day did you work?

11       A.   We would leave in the morning, around 8.00, and then we were there

12    until 5.00 in the afternoon.

13       Q.   Did anyone pay you for your job?

14       A.   No, nobody paid us.  And the food that we were getting over there

15    at this prefab building where we slept consisted of two slices of bread

16    and some jam.  Then we would bring that along.  The first five days, the

17    food was being delivered there.  We also received a little -- some water,

18    three, two-litre bottles for a group of 20 to 25 of us.  And this was

19    during the month of August, when the temperatures are very high.  So there

20    you have it.

21       Q.   Did you communicate with prisoners from Dobrkovic school?

22       A.   Yes.  We talked because we were working together on that canal,

23    and as I said, there were between sometime 10, sometime 12, sometime 15,

24    depended on the day, and the 13 of us made about 25 in total each day.

25       Q.   Did they tell you in what conditions they were kept in Dobrkovic

Page 4270

 1    detention facility?

 2       A.   Yes.  They talked about it.  They slept on the floor.  They had

 3    blankets which they used for a pillow.  And because they were guarded by

 4    the home guards, they themselves called themselves the home guards, men in

 5    uniform could come and beat us, and this happened.  And also they were

 6    being hit with tinned food which they kept, they tried to hide.  Sometimes

 7    they would get it in the morning and they hid it in order to eat it at a

 8    later time, so they were beaten by -- hit with these.  And we could see

 9    that because they were taking off their T-shirts and shirts because of the

10    heat, and we could see the black-and-blue marks on them.

11       Q.   Did they tell you who was beating them?

12       A.   They, themselves, did not know at first who was coming in a red

13    Porsche until we told them that this person's name was Ivan Hrkac, called

14    Cikota.  And he always had with him at least one other fighter in uniform

15    who also mistreated -- took part in the mistreatment.  One day, when we

16    were coming back from work, and they would leave earlier, we saw down

17    there some commotion in front of the school building.  We also saw a car

18    which drove away.  Our driver was told to immediately take us away, not to

19    linger on.  And the next day, they told us that even Cikota had come.  And

20    a person who was skilled in karate, they had taken out a teacher.  This

21    karate person kicked him in the chest, and the man died.

22       Q.   Do you know the name of that man who died?

23       A.   No, because he did not beat us.

24       Q.   It seems to me that you haven't understood my question.  I'm just

25    asking you about the person who, according to the Dobrkovic prisoners,

Page 4271

 1    died after the beating.

 2       A.   Yes, I do.  That was Professor Krilic, K-r-i-l-i-c.

 3       Q.   Thank you.  And do you know who was in charge of Dobrkovic

 4    detention facilities?  Did they tell you, I mean prisoners?

 5       A.   No, I do not know.

 6       Q.   Who was in charge of your detention facilities in the Tobacco

 7    Institute area?

 8       A.   Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, and the Convicts Battalion.

 9       Q.   Why do you think so?

10       A.   Because at first, only members of the Convicts Battalion could

11    enter there.  Later on, the fighters of the Poskok Battalion were also

12    able to enter.

13       Q.   And how did they treat you?

14       A.   The guards who guarded us were from the Convicts Battalion, and

15    some of them even showed us some identity cards.  And apparently by

16    certain numbers, digits, you could tell that they were from that

17    battalion.  And some guards, when they arrived, when some individuals in

18    uniform would come, the three guards, because there were three per shift,

19    they could open -- unlock the doors, and we were spread over three rooms

20    where we slept.  Then they would unlock the door, and then whoever would

21    want to come in would come in and beat us.

22       Q.   Did you ever see Tuta in your detention facilities?  I mean in the

23    Tobacco Institute.

24       A.   Yes, when we painted his offices on the top floor when he was

25    supposed to move in there.  He came to see how the work was progressing,

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Page 4273

 1    and we saw him from the window.  I saw him twice with Stela.  And I saw

 2    him also when he came out to calm down the two of his men, the two guards

 3    who had an altercation, and they were the guards who were guarding us.

 4       Q.   Did any other of the KB - I mean the Convicts Battalion - unit

 5    ever visit the detention facilities?  I mean -- sorry.  Did any other

 6    commander, I mean.

 7       A.   On the 78th days -- because this is how I memorized events, by the

 8    days, because we counted.  On the 78th day, Colonel Andabak came with two

 9    fighters of the Convicts Battalion.  I know that one of them was nicknamed

10    "Robija."  I don't know the name of the other one.  He was shorter.

11    There were three of us sleeping in one cell.  I would not like to divulge

12    their names right now.  He took out one of them.  Ten minutes later, he

13    took out the next one, and I had to step out of the room and be by the

14    door.  I could hear the moans, and then it was my turn as third.  He made

15    me sit down in a chair against the wall.  To the left was Robija, that is

16    that man named Robija, and the other man was on the other side.  And then

17    he identified himself as Colonel Andabak, Tuta's deputy.  He asked

18    insignificant things, insignificant to me, that is.  Where was the safe

19    that the army had?  Where was the money that was kept in the basement?

20    And I was in no position to know any of this.  I did not know whether

21    there was any safe or any money.

22            After each question was accompanied by a blow, by either of the

23    two men who were standing next to me.  They were either kicks or punches.

24    That went on for about ten minutes, and then we were led out and taken to

25    another room where we were joined with the others.  Four or five days

Page 4274

 1    later, two men came, one identified himself as commander -- actually, as a

 2    SIS operative, and the other one as a VOS operative, V-O-S.  This took

 3    place about ten days after one of those who were with us in the prison was

 4    released.  He was released and taken to Makarska and released to his

 5    father, as we were told by Colonel Zeljko Bosnjak, because it was he

 6    himself who took him there.

 7            They came again for the three of us, because the three of us were

 8    still together, and we were taken out one by one to another room.  They

 9    threatened us with a pistol.  They put a pistol in our mouth.  They hit

10    us, and asked how much money Zeljko Bosnjak got.  We had no idea this man

11    would be released or Zeljko Bosnjak would get any money for it.  We just

12    did not have any knowledge of that.  After that, for two days, we received

13    no food.  We stopped being taken to work.  We remained locked up in the

14    room, and occasionally we would be allowed to go to the toilet.  And that

15    went on for 10 to 15 days.  And then we went to some factory to dig a

16    canal and to place some cable.

17       Q.   Thank you.  And did you know Andabak before?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Could you describe his appearances now?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Please.

22       A.   He was wearing a camouflage uniform, not very tall, a round face

23    with spectacles, and hair that wasn't very long, not cut military style

24    but not very long either.  If I saw a picture of him, I would recognise

25    him immediately.

Page 4275

 1       Q.   Witness, in your testimony today, you have mentioned the name of a

 2    person whose name was Stela.  Did you know that person before?

 3       A.   Yes, from Balinovac, from Balinovac, which is a neighbourhood in

 4    Mostar where I played soccer.  And so I've known Stela for over 25 years.

 5    But we never really socialised.

 6       Q.   Did you see him during the war?  I mean apart from those two

 7    occasions when you saw him at Stela's headquarters?

 8       A.   Him personally?  No.  Just in passing in Mostar, in a car, because

 9    he had very characteristic-looking car.  The colour of his car could be

10    described as pink panther.  It was an American-built car, a Chevrolet, a

11    convertible.

12       Q.   Did you know which position he occupied during the war?  I mean

13    the war in 1993, sorry.

14       A.   According to the -- to his fighters, he was a commander of the ATG

15    group, which was part of the Convicts Battalion.

16       Q.   How do you know that, that his unit was a part of the Convicts

17    Battalion?

18       A.   On the 17th or 19th of September, we were released from the camp

19    to two men with cars, who took us to Mostar.  We arrived in Mostar at the

20    Rondo, the four of us, and there we were in front and behind the building

21    where Radio Mostar was.  There is a yard there and we were -- we were

22    sitting there, and the police asked us where did we come from?  And the

23    young man who guarded us said that he was a member of the Convicts

24    Battalion in Mostar.

25       Q.   But did he tell you to which unit he belonged to?  What was the

Page 4276

 1    name of the unit he was enlisted in?

 2       A.   That unit was part of the Convicts Battalion, because he showed

 3    the policemen an identity card, because the policeman did -- left us alone

 4    after that, which to me meant that he was above the policeman.

 5            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  All right.  Your Honour, I think that now we

 6    should go into private session for some minutes because you remember the

 7    witness did not give names of people who were beaten along with him in

 8    tobacco station.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  We will go to the private session.

10                          [Private session]

11   [redacted]

12   [redacted]

13   [redacted]

14   [redacted]

15   [redacted]

16   [redacted]

17   [redacted]

18   [redacted]

19   [redacted]

20   [redacted]

21   [redacted]

22   [redacted]

23   [redacted]

24   [redacted]

25   [redacted]

Page 4277












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Page 4278

 1   [redacted]

 2   [redacted]

 3   [redacted]

 4   [redacted]

 5   [redacted]

 6   [redacted]

 7   [redacted]

 8                          [Open session]

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we are now in the open session.

10            MR. PORIOUVAEV:

11       Q.   Yes, go ahead.

12       A.   The whole night and the whole next day, we were carrying large

13    amounts of explosive, which had been transported to the front of the

14      restaurant nearby.  And we carried it to a manhole near the Lenin park,

15    the Lenin promenade.  And we carried these explosives through the manhole

16    to a place near the court building on the other side road, a section held

17    by the BH army.  It was 1600 kilos of explosive that we carried over.  And

18    since the four of us couldn't manage it on our own, another six prisoners

19    were brought, and they worked in Santic Street that night to get it

20    carried over by the next day.  I know it's exactly 1600 kilos because I

21    went to Rudnik together with one of the soldiers to bring the tools

22    necessary for opening the manhole because the manhole had been closed.

23            And then we stopped by a place where a man was loading explosives

24    on to a truck.  He said there would be 2400 kilos.  And since our guard,

25    Jure Djidic was not accompanying us, he told me to get it myself.  And

Page 4279

 1    when we had done it, the man said, "Tell the driver it's only 1600, not

 2    more."  That's how I know.

 3       Q.   Witness BB, do you know for which unit you were performing this

 4    job?

 5       A.   The unit, the group which was located there and headed by a man

 6    whom I only know by his nickname, Tange, because he was the owner of the

 7    Tange Lange Cafe.  That's how he got his nickname.  There was also a man

 8    named Vili, son of Suljo, who was also well known in Zagreb.  There was

 9    also Jure Djidic, and there was a man who used to be the goalkeeper of the

10    Locomotiva team.  And they all belonged to what they called an independent

11    sabotage group attached to the Convicts Battalion.  That's what they

12    said.  That's what Tange personally told us that morning while we were

13    drying ourselves because we were wet from working in the sewage manhole.

14       Q.   Did they tell the name of the unit they belonged to?

15       A.   This man Willy said that they were a sabotage group, but he didn't

16    say more than that.  It was Tange who said they were attached to the

17    Convicts Battalion.

18       Q.   Thank you.

19            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Now, I would like the usher to place

20    Exhibit Number 14.3 on the ELMO.

21       Q.   Please, Witness, could you indicate in this picture the place you

22    were performing your job with explosives.

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Can you mark it, please -- yes, first the pointer.

25       A.   Here on this picture, you can't see the manhole through which we

Page 4280

 1    carried the explosive because it's in the street which goes down below the

 2    edge of the picture.  From this corner here, it's about 7 to 8 metres in

 3    the middle of the road.  We carried it through the sewage which goes along

 4    here.

 5       Q.   Now, you may take a marker and just indicate the route you were

 6    carrying explosives to.  To begin with, the building just to the left

 7    side, do you know the name of the building?

 8       A.   Yes.  This is Aleksa Santic High School.  This is the third

 9    primary school.  They switched places at one point, so this used to be the

10    high school and this used to be the primary school.

11       Q.   Now, you can put number 1 on this building.

12       A.   [Marks]

13       Q.   But I don't see the picture.

14       A.   This is Aleksa Santic school.

15       Q.   Put it on the ELMO because we cannot follow you.

16       A.   This is Aleksa Santic High School, and this is the third primary

17    school.

18       Q.   Put number 2 on the primary school.

19       A.   [Marks]

20       Q.   Okay.  Go ahead.

21       A.   Our route started here at the manhole, and it crossed this way

22    right here.  From this point, we turned in the direction of this building,

23    and then we went here below.  This here was the first manhole where we

24    left explosives --

25       Q.   Okay.  [Previous translation continues]...

Page 4281

 1       A.   Near the building of the court.

 2       Q.   All right.

 3            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Now I would like the usher to put Exhibit

 4    Number 39.1 on the ELMO.

 5       Q.   Witness BB, could you identify someone -- anyone on this picture?

 6       A.   Yes, Colonel Ivan Andabak.

 7       Q.   Could you show this person with the pointer?

 8       A.   [Indicates]

 9       Q.   Okay.  Put a number 1, because there are two persons here in the

10    photo.

11       A.   [Marks]

12       Q.   Oh, my God.  You have overdone it.  Okay.  That's fine.

13            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  So Witness BB identified a person marked with

14    number 1 as Ivan Andabak.

15       Q.   Thank you very much.  And I've got a couple more questions.  While

16    talking about Ljubuski, Witness, you said that you had been beaten by

17    Ernest Takac and Pehar, whose nickname was Dolma.  Do you know to which

18    unit they belonged?  Who was their commander?

19       A.   They belonged to the same group as Romeo Blazevic, who belonged to

20    Stela.

21       Q.   How do you know that?

22       A.   From their own words, the Convicts Battalion was established in

23    Mostar to defend Mostar, and that's where this ATG, anti-terrorist group,

24    came in, and also this sabotage group.

25       Q.   But what was -- what is the link between the sabotage group and

Page 4282












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Page 4283

 1    Stela?

 2       A.   The ATG was not established during the war between Croats and

 3    Muslims.  It was established before.  Juka had his own unit, and in the

 4    same way, this side had its own.  And rumour had it, in cafes and places,

 5    that the commander was Stela.  Many boasted that they were members of that

 6    group, just as Takac boasted of it, the same as Dolma, Romeo.  They

 7    bragged themselves that they were fighting men.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  When were you released from the detention facilities?

 9       A.   Late in October, 1993.

10            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Thank you very much, witness.

11            Your Honour, my examination-in-chief is over.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Well, you did a very good job, that you finished with

13    this witness with your direct examination within the time frame you told

14    us.

15            Any cross-examination?  Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

16            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honours.  If you

17    would be just kind enough to have the ELMO lowered to begin with so I can

18    see the witness.

19                          Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

20       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.  Let me introduce myself.

21    I am Defence counsel for the accused Mr. Naletilic, and I will be putting

22    to you some questions.

23       A.   Go ahead.

24       Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, please, when did you transfer to the BH army?

25       A.   I wasn't in the BH army for even a day.  I was in the 4th

Page 4284

 1    Battalion, and I do have my soldier's ID, and it's also in the computer.

 2    You can check.  I was in the group for maintenance.

 3       Q.   Right.  But please answer just briefly my questions.  You've told

 4    me that you were not there, and that's it.  You didn't have any weapons?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   You spent your nights in Vranica as a simple civilian?

 7       A.   Yes, because I took over the apartment of a Serb person.

 8       Q.   You took it over yourself or somebody gave it to you?

 9       A.   No.  I took it over myself because the apartment where I used to

10    live was destroyed by shells and I had nowhere to sleep.  Everybody took

11    over other people's apartments.

12       Q.   Did you give any oath, for instance, in the HVO?

13       A.   No, because I was mobilised during the general mobilisation to the

14    northern camp.  I was taken to the northern camp and to the Tihomir Misic

15    camp.  That's where the mobilisation was carried out.

16       Q.   Tell me, please, were there any -- was there any fighting before

17    the 9th in Mostar?

18       A.   You mean before the 9th of May?  Yes, there was fighting on the

19    16th and 17th of April, 1993, around the Mostar Hotel and around the high

20    school.  There were police forces and the army there.

21       Q.   Do you know of any agreements made between the HVO and the BH army

22    as to who would be stationed where and who would draw lines, before the

23    9th of May?

24       A.   One evening, I was in my apartment, because I was overlooking that

25    place, as I said before.  I heard noise down below.  I went to the window,

Page 4285

 1    and I saw Arif Pasalic, nicknamed Hujko -- Arif Pasalic, sorry, and Hujko

 2    having an argument, and Pasalic told Hujko that they had just signed an

 3    agreement and that they should move their police, I don't know where.  I

 4    heard it with my own ears because I was six or seven metres above them.

 5    It was night-time and it was quiet all around.

 6       Q.   Will you tell this Court who is Arif Pasalic and who is Hujko, on

 7    the other hand?

 8       A.   Arif Pasalic is the corps commander of the BH army, and Hujko is

 9    the commander of the BH army brigade.

10       Q.   Is that the well-known 1st Mostar Brigade commanded by Hujdur?

11       A.   I don't know what number that brigade was.  I just know that he

12    was the commander of one of those brigades.

13       Q.   Was that argument because -- was that argument over one of them

14    wanting to comply with the agreement and the other not wanting to, or was

15    it about something else?

16       A.   According to the chain of command that I was taught in school,

17    corps commander is superior to the brigade commander.  And the brigade

18    commander, as far as I could see, was not present in that meeting, and

19    this other one was informing him.  That's how I understood that scene.

20       Q.   I seem to have heard you saying, and that's what came -- what's in

21    the transcript.  You said that they had an argument.  An argument is not

22    the passing of information.  An argument is a quarrel.

23       A.   Yes.  It was an argument that didn't awaken the whole highrise,

24    but it did wake me up and perhaps another person on the floor above.  And

25    one man was saying to the other that he should submit to him, that he

Page 4286

 1    should comply.

 2       Q.   So if I understood you correctly, and please confirm or otherwise,

 3    there was a quarrel between Mr. Pasalic and Mr. Hujko because one of them

 4    didn't want to submit to the other.

 5       A.   No, it wasn't a quarrel.  It was an argument.  I said it was an

 6    argument.  It is a much milder expression and a much milder type of talk

 7    than a quarrel.

 8       Q.   Tell me, sir, do you know whether Mr. -- I'll speak more slowly

 9    now for the transcript.  Did Mr. Mithad Hujdur -- no, it's not right.

10    M-i-t-h-a-d  H-u-j-d-u-r.

11            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Poriouvaev.

12            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Your Honour, I would like to know what my learned

13    colleague is leading to, because I don't think it is relevant to the case

14    or the charges against his client.

15            JUDGE LIU:  I also would like to know this question.

16            Mr. Krsnik, could you give us an explanation.

17            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you would bear with

18    me for another minute, you will learn the answer.  I don't want to explain

19    in front of the witness why I'm putting a certain question.  That's one.

20    And I would also be very grateful, Your Honour, because we have also

21    general background in this indictment, and this question is very relevant,

22    especially what the witness was talking about right now.  And when you

23    hear the next question, you will understand the meaning of the previous

24    one.

25       Q.   Do you remember giving any statements to the representatives of

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Page 4288

 1    this Court except for testifying today?

 2       A.   I'm sorry, I don't understand.

 3       Q.   Did you give any statements to the investigators of this Tribunal?

 4       A.   Yes, a complete report, like this.

 5       Q.   So you gave them a statement?

 6       A.   Naturally, I have given a statement to the investigators.

 7       Q.   Do you remember when and to whom?

 8       A.   I don't remember.  It was about two years ago, I believe.  And I

 9    especially don't remember to whom.

10       Q.   During that questioning, were you telling the truth?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   And you said all you knew, and you answered their questions?

13       A.   Yes, and I will say the same to you now.

14       Q.   Just a minute, just a minute.  In that statement, you stated that

15    on the 7th and the 8th of April, you were in the BH army.  And on the

16    evening of the 8th of April, you were defending the high school and the

17    Mostar Hotel.  However, you had to turn them over to the Croatian army as

18    a result of the agreement reached between Pero Zelenika, on the one hand,

19    and General Pasalic on the other hand.

20            Today, you said you had never been in the BH army.  That's the

21    reason for my question.

22       A.   I wasn't.  I wasn't in the army even then.  You should know that

23    at that time, some better-known fighters from the army made a group to

24    defend this area around the park, so it was not joining the army.  It was

25    just fighters on their own initiative, just as some people from the HVO.

Page 4289

 1    And I joined that group that evening because it was an attempt to avoid

 2    the conflict and to prevent the conflict between the army and the HVO.  I

 3    was there that evening, but I wasn't a member of the army.

 4       Q.   Witness, you said in your statement, "When the HVO attack started,

 5    I joined the BH army."  Do you remember saying that?

 6       A.   Counsel --

 7            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, to observe all our

 8    rules, I can present the witness with this document.  My colleagues also

 9    have this statement in both versions.

10            May I ask the usher to give the witness this statement in B/C/S.

11       A.   There's no need to.  I know it all.

12       Q.   To refresh your memory.

13       A.   I know what I said.

14       Q.   Then you went on to say, "I'm a Bosniak Muslim.  I wanted to

15    defend my city.  We were deployed by Hujka -- that is, we were deployed by

16    Hujka, who is the commander of the Mostar Brigade of BH army.  On 7 April,

17    1993, during the night, I was in the big park in front of the Mostar Hotel

18    and the grammar school.  The distance between these two buildings is about

19    200 metres.  I was together with another 80 soldiers of the BH army.  We

20    wanted to defend the two aforementioned buildings.  The BH army was

21    informed about the attack two or three days in advance.  I know this.  I

22    cannot tell you who passed on that information."

23            Were you with the BH army or not?

24       A.   No, I was not.  I was not.

25       Q.   So what is stated there -- here is not true?

Page 4290

 1       A.   No.  This is mistranslated.  I am a Bosniak from -- I'm a citizen

 2    of Mostar.  I did not say I was a Bosniak Muslim.

 3       Q.   Excuse me, Bosniak Muslim or Bosniak Mostar man, I respect

 4    whatever you want to say, the way -- however you feel yourself to be, but

 5    the rest of it, did you say the rest of that?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   So let me ask you again.  So were you a member of the BH army?

 8       A.   No.  I was never a member of the ABiH, but as a born Mostar man,

 9    like others who were not members of ABiH, who had come there, we all knew

10    about the attack.  We wanted to prevent it.  Other people came from

11    outside, to that park, on the HVO side.  There were no local Mostar men in

12    that park that night.

13       Q.   Will you look at the paragraph before?  "In the evening of 8

14    April, 1993, we defended the grammar school and the Mostar Hotel."  So

15    that was the question which I asked you previously.  So now you have it in

16    front of you.  And I continue:  "But we had to give them to the Croatian

17    side because of the agreement between General Pasalic, as representative

18    of the Muslim side, and Pero Zelenika, as an HVO representative."  In the

19    evening of 8 April, did you sleep peacefully at home or were you defending

20    these sites?

21       A.   The attack was between 8.00 and 10.00 in the evening, and then we

22    all went home because the soldiers who did not know this area left the

23    park and [redacted]

24    [redacted], at least those of us who came out to

25    help that night in order to avoid the conflict.  It was then that I heard

Page 4291

 1    -- and this was midnight by this time, when this took place, between

 2    Pasalic and Pero.

 3       Q.   You now said that you were there defending the grammar school and

 4    the Mostar Hotel, and then in the next paragraph, you describe -- this

 5    would be -- let's go on to the next paragraph.  "The attack lasted for two

 6    hours.  The HVO soldiers did not expect BH army soldiers in the park after

 7    their attack and subsequent escape from the park.  We left and I went

 8    home."  My question is:  Were you, as a member of the ABiH, in the park

 9    when this attack took place, then you chased the HVO soldiers, as you

10    said, and then you went home to sleep?  Is that what it was?

11       A.   Not as a member of the army.  As many men from Mostar, who did not

12    belong to any army, we came there to defend these places as members of --

13       Q.   We've heard that.

14       A.   But I was not a member of the army.

15       Q.   When I asked you today earlier, you said that you did not have any

16    weapons.  How did you defend that park?

17       A.   That night?

18       Q.   Yes.

19       A.   I said in the 4th Battalion, I never -- I was never issued any

20    type of weapons before or later.  I found my own uniform --

21       Q.   That was not my question and that was not your answer.  My

22    question was, were you a member of ABiH; you said no.  And I asked you

23    whether you had any weapons; and you said no.  I asked you, did you sleep

24    in that apartment as a civilian; and you said yes.  That was today.  And

25    now, I ask you today, did you have any weapon that night?

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Page 4293

 1       A.   That night, yes.  That was the only night I had, and I never

 2    denied that.  I also had a personal pistol.

 3       Q.   Can you tell us what type of weapon did you have that night?

 4       A.   You mean that night?

 5       Q.   Yes.

 6       A.   A Kalashnikov.

 7       Q.   Is that the AK-47?

 8       A.   I don't know.  I know it's called Kalashnikov.

 9       Q.   Is that a machine-gun?

10       A.   No, that was a rifle.

11       Q.   A submachine-gun?

12       A.   No.  It was a rifle, an automatic rifle.  A Kalashnikov is an

13    automatic rifle.

14       Q.   Kalashnikov is an automatic rifle?

15       A.   Yes.  It is not a submachine-gun.  There is a big difference in

16    calibre.  I know that much.

17       Q.   So you had this Kalashnikov in your apartment?

18       A.   That night, no, no, I did not have it in my apartment.  I returned

19    it that night.

20       Q.   To whom did you return it?

21       A.   You want the name or?

22       Q.   Tell us to whom did you return it.

23       A.   I asked you, do you want me -- the name or the party?

24       Q.   Both the name and the party.

25       A.   The name would not mean anything to you.  His name was Mirso.  And

Page 4294

 1    I gave him the rifle.

 2       Q.   And the party is the ABiH, I assume?

 3       A.   Yes, yes.  He was with the ABiH.

 4       Q.   And why did you give him the rifle?  It was your rifle?

 5       A.   No, it was not my rifle.  Because I had taken the rifle from him.

 6       Q.   And did you go home in your uniform or in civilian clothes?  Did

 7    you have a uniform on?

 8       A.   Yes, I did, yes.  I went home in the uniform.

 9       Q.   Was that the ABiH uniform or the HVO?

10       A.   No.  This was a uniform with a Croatian insignia.

11       Q.   Very well.  So then you heard this argument that night -- that was

12    the night on the night of the 8th, is that --

13       A.   No.  That is a wrong date.

14       Q.   Where did you make a mistake in date?  In this statement?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   So what date was that?

17       A.   The night between the 16th and the 17th.

18       Q.   Was that April 1993?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   And then on the 9th, or in the night between the 8th and the 9th,

21    this is when it started, when you heard shots?

22       A.   Ten to 5.00 on the 9th of May, 1993.  The first shell that was

23    fired from a hand-held rocket launcher was fired into the living room of

24    the apartment where I slept.

25       Q.   Is that also a mistake?  You said the balcony.

Page 4295

 1       A.   Well, I can show it to you.  It was the wall separating the

 2    balcony from the living room.

 3       Q.   Witness, my question was, did the shell hit the balcony or the

 4    living room?

 5       A.   The wall separating the balcony and the living room.

 6            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can I ask the usher's assistance to

 7    give us back the photograph - I don't know exactly the number - so you can

 8    show us exactly where the shell impacted.

 9            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  To make things easier, 16.4.

10            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11            JUDGE LIU:  I'm not sure whether it's proper to put this

12    photograph on the ELMO because that will identify, in my view, where the

13    witness lives.

14            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] We can go into the private session,

15    but it cannot be -- no, no, no, you're right.  We should go to the private

16    session.  You're absolutely right.

17            JUDGE LIU:  We'll go to the private session.

18                          [Private session]

19   [redacted]

20   [redacted]

21   [redacted]

22   [redacted]

23   [redacted]

24   [redacted]

25   [redacted]

Page 4296













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Page 4298













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Page 4299

 1   [redacted]

 2   [redacted]

 3   [redacted]

 4   [redacted]

 5   [redacted]

 6   [redacted]

 7                          [Open session]

 8            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

 9       Q.   The Juka, is that the name of a man called Juka Prazina?

10       A.   Yes, that is a man named Juka Prazina.

11       Q.   Was he a Bosniak Muslim?

12       A.   He probably is.

13       Q.   Was that the man who came from Sarajevo as a hero?

14       A.   I wouldn't be able to tell you that.

15       Q.   How did you know, who told you, that Juka was with the Convicts

16    Battalion?  Was this something that you heard in the bar?

17       A.   You did not hear that from me, that Juka was in the Convicts

18    Battalion.  I did not say that.

19       Q.   Excuse me, that was my understanding.  When you said that Juka

20    took you from the School of Economics?

21       A.   Yes, we saw Zeljko Bosnjak at the School of Economics, in the yard

22    there, a colonel of the Convicts Battalion.

23       Q.   Very well.  We will get to that right away, to Zeljko Bosnjak, but

24    Juka had nothing to do with the Convicts Battalion?

25       A.   I don't know anything about that, but they were together that day.

Page 4300

 1       Q.   Now, how did you know that Zeljko Bosnjak was with the Convicts

 2    Battalion, and that on top of that, he had the rank of colonel, on that

 3    8th of May, 1993?

 4       A.   If you had really listened to what I was saying, you would

 5    remember that I said that later on, I learned that he was a colonel in

 6    rank.

 7       Q.   I was asking you about the 8th of May.

 8       A.   I don't know about the 8th of May.  I left the school of economics

 9    on the 10th of May.

10       Q.   And you did not know who that man was?

11       A.   I knew that he was Zeljko Bosnjak.

12       Q.   And that's how you knew?

13       A.   I did not know his rank.  I knew that he was with the Convicts

14    Battalion.

15       Q.   And later on, you heard from people?

16       A.   No.  He personally arrived.  He personally came to the swimming

17    pool.

18       Q.   Very well.  We'll get there.  We'll get there.

19       A.   No.  All I want to say, that I learned about it a couple of days

20    later, after the 10th.

21       Q.   Now, tell me, please, who did Misic shoot at?  We are now in front

22    of the ministry, as you said, and you came -- and Misic shot at somebody.

23    Who was it that he shot at?

24       A.   Let me tell you now.

25       Q.   Excuse me, no, no, no, no.  Don't read.

Page 4301

 1       A.   I would like not to mention the name.  It's not written there.

 2    Can I say it?

 3       Q.   Of course.

 4       A.   Because he's an army soldier.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Should we go to private session?

 6            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, please.  It's just for this one

 7    question.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  We will go to the private session.

 9                          [Private session]

10    [redacted]

11    [redacted]

12    [redacted]

13    [redacted]

14    [redacted]

15    [redacted]

16    [redacted]

17    [redacted]

18    [redacted]

19    [redacted]

20    [redacted]

21    [redacted]

22    [redacted]

23    [redacted]

24    [redacted]

25    [redacted]

Page 4302












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Page 4303

 1   [redacted]

 2   [redacted]

 3   [redacted]

 4   [redacted]

 5   [redacted]

 6   [redacted]

 7   [redacted]

 8                          [Open session]

 9       A.   The faculty is down near the Bijeli Brijeg stadium.  The ministry

10    is about 700 or 800 metres before that, across from the old Velez stadium,

11    in the direction of Balinovac or the Bakamok [phoen] Street, whichever way

12    you like.

13       Q.   And you were taken to Balinovac?  Is that what you just said?

14       A.   No.  We were taken down on to Zujanica Street, and it passes the

15    Velez stadium, which now has all these coffee bars.  It intersects the

16    street that goes from the Rondo to the Velez stadium.  And then there was

17    the SIS building, a small house, and then past there, to the right, in a

18    -- there is an older building.  It used to be the Zagreb Bank before and

19    during the war was a ministry.  I don't know what ministries were in

20    there.  I wouldn't be able to tell you.

21       Q.   And can you tell me in relation to that building what -- where was

22    the Tobacco Institute or something like that that -- was there something

23    called like that?

24       A.   The Tobacco Institute is about four kilometres away from that, on

25    the opposite side.

Page 4304

 1            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I see that it is 1.00,

 2    Your Honours.  I will not be long after the break.  I will go on with my

 3    cross-examination, but I will not take very long.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  We will resume at 2.30 this afternoon.

 5                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.





















Page 4305

 1                          --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Krsnik.

 3            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.  I just

 4    need to find the map of Mostar.  I believe it's Exhibit 11.8.  It's

 5    11.18.

 6       Q.   Witness, would you please take the pointer and show us on this map

 7    this ministry in the former Zagrebica Bank, and then the location of the

 8    Tobacco Institute.  Please use the pointer.

 9       A.   [Indicates]

10       Q.   This is what?

11       A.   This is the cemetery -- old Zagreb bank.

12            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters cannot hear the witness.  He is

13    too far from the microphone.

14            JUDGE LIU:  I think, Witness, you have to turn on the other mic.

15    Thank you.

16            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

17       Q.   Kindly show us the Tobacco Institute in Mostar.

18       A.   [Indicates]

19       Q.   Just for the record, will you please describe the location?

20       A.   Below the Hasan Brkic bridge on the left-hand side.  The streets

21    towards Buna and Blagaj.

22       Q.   And now, please, show us the mechanical engineering school.

23       A.   The mechanical engineering school.  The university buildings are

24    here.  That's the old Dzemal Bijedic University.

25       Q.   And the location?

Page 4306

 1       A.   Before the Velez stadium.  If you are coming from the direction of

 2    Strelcevina, if you are going from Rondo, it's on the right-hand side.  If

 3    you are coming from Vranica, it's on the left-hand side.

 4       Q.   And you were all taken by Juka's soldiers to the old stadium.

 5    Were you personally taken there?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   So it's the site below the old Partizan bridge?

 8       A.   Cemetery.

 9       Q.   Right, cemetery.  Thank you, Witness.

10            Now, tell me, you were arrested and taken away by Juka's

11    soldiers.  Is that right?

12       A.   Juka's and Tuta's soldiers, because both followed us.  Some went

13    in front and some behind.

14       Q.   How do you know they were Tuta's?

15       A.   Because Djeko Bosnjak is Tuta's man.

16       Q.   But at that time you didn't know that?

17       A.   I didn't know he was a colonel.  I learned two days later at the

18    swimming pool that he was a colonel.

19       Q.   Right.  Now, tell me, when you were arrived outside that building

20    of the ministry, you said Misic, Tuta, and Primorac were already there?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Could you give me the names of some people who saw Misic shoot?

23       A.   When they come here, you'll have the opportunity to ask them.

24       Q.   You don't remember a single name of a person who eye-witnessed

25    this?

Page 4307












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Page 4308

 1       A.   People heard it.  I don't know how much they could see because

 2    they were in two columns.  The moment when he cursed our mothers and said

 3    that we had killed his son, that's the moment when he took out his gun and

 4    fired.

 5       Q.   You have said this already.  I was asking you to tell me some

 6    names of people who saw it.

 7       A.   I can only give you the names of people who were present there.

 8       Q.   That's the only thing I'm asking for.

 9       A.   I said that those were people who were there, and I've already

10    listed them today.  I can repeat those names.

11            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps we should go

12    into private session because I don't see why anyone who was in the BH army

13    would deserve our going into private session every time.

14            JUDGE LIU:  Well, we'll go to the private session for a few

15    minutes.

16                          [Private session]

17   [redacted]

18   [redacted]

19   [redacted]

20   [redacted]

21   [redacted]

22   [redacted]

23   [redacted]

24   [redacted]

25   [redacted]

Page 4309

 1    [redacted]

 2    [redacted]

 3    [redacted]

 4    [redacted]

 5    [redacted]

 6    [redacted]

 7    [redacted]

 8    [redacted]

 9    [redacted]

10                          [Open session]

11            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   And nobody else fired except this gentleman?

13       A.   No one else.

14       Q.   And you said [redacted] was hit?

15       A.   Yes.  He was hit by a Motorola by Tuta.

16       Q.   And no one else?

17       A.   I'm mentioning names again, sir.

18       Q.   All right.  Tell me, then, Juka came?

19       A.   No.  Juka was already there.

20       Q.   Just a minute.  Did Juka try to prevent this?  Did he scream at

21    Misic?

22       A.   Juka stood in front of Misic and Mr. Tuta, and said that he had

23    promised us outside the school of economics, and this was true, that we

24    would not be killed, that we would not be hurt in any way.  And then Tuta

25    said, "Take these people to Siroki Brijeg and execute them."

Page 4310

 1       Q.   And Juka's men then took you to Siroki Brijeg?

 2       A.   Yes, on a bus.  Juka's men were with us but without Juka.

 3       Q.   And as you arrive outside the police station in Siroki Brijeg; is

 4    that right?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Were you then turned over to the police?

 7       A.   Only after 30 or 40 minutes.  The policemen were standing outside

 8    and they eventually turned us over to them.

 9       Q.   And the civilian police, then, took you over?

10       A.   Yes, 40 minutes later.

11       Q.   And from then on, you were taken care of by the police.  You were

12    accommodated in those cells, as you said, you were fed, and so on and so

13    forth.  Is that correct?

14       A.   The 33 of us were placed in two cells --

15       Q.   We heard about that already.  I'm only asking you --

16       A.   And I'm replying.

17       Q.   I was asking you, the police took care of you, put you in cells,

18    fed you, et cetera?

19       A.   If you believe a 200 gram food -- tinned food enough for six

20    persons --

21       Q.   That was not the question.  I was asking you who took you over,

22    who took care of you.  Please don't be offended.

23            Tell me, you said today when you went to the swimming pool, you

24    were guarded by home guards.  Who were those home guards?

25       A.   Not the swimming pool.  At the swimming pool, we were guarded by

Page 4311

 1    drivers who drove the trucks carrying the wood that we had chopped and

 2    loaded.  There were ten of them, about ten of them.  And they called

 3    themselves "home guards" when we were working on the canal, when we were

 4    digging the canal.  It was a later occasion when we were guarded by

 5    self-styled home guards.

 6       Q.   So if I understood you correctly, you were guarded by drivers.

 7       A.   At the swimming pool, yes.  But not at the canal.

 8       Q.   And who guarded you at the canal?

 9       A.   Over seven days at the canal, we were guarded by a special unit of

10    civilian police.  Several days later, maybe 7, maybe it's 11 days, we were

11    guarded by civilian policemen.  And later yet, we were guarded again by

12    the guards who were guarding us at the Tobacco Institute.  And after them

13    came civilians who didn't go to the front but who put on uniforms and

14    called themselves "home guards."  And they guarded us, they continued

15    guarding us until the end.

16       Q.   Tell me, were they armed?  I mean the drivers.

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Excuse me.  I didn't hear your answer.  Were the drivers armed?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Tell me, this water canal, this water supply canal that you were

21    digging, was it for a village on a hill?

22       A.   That canal we were digging, we dug it up to the road by which we

23    had come.  And from that point on, a bulldozer could continue.  The guards

24    told us that it was for Tuta's house.

25       Q.   All right.

Page 4312












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Page 4313












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Page 4314

 1       A.   Between the canal and Tuta's house, there were perhaps only two

 2    more houses.

 3       Q.   Tell us kindly, that swimming pool where you worked, was it the

 4    town pool?

 5       A.   Fifteen years ago maybe, probably.  But nowadays, it was Jablanica

 6    and those drivers who told us where the restaurant would be, where the

 7    tennis grounds would be, the tennis courts, and it was in that direction

 8    that we cleared the woods.

 9       Q.   And it was supposed to be taken over by Jablanica, you said today?

10       A.   Yes, together with Tuta.

11       Q.   Just one more question about this swimming pool.  Did you also get

12    food only once a day at the swimming pool as well?

13       A.   Yes, for lunch.

14       Q.   How about cigarettes?

15       A.   No, unless some of the drivers gave us one.  We got on one

16    occasion about ten T-shirts because ours were very soiled.  They brought

17    them in a case.

18       Q.   So let me get this straight.  At least one driver had to be

19    present at the swimming pool at all times because they were coming and

20    going?

21       A.   They were at the swimming pool all the time, at least six or

22    seven, because they were afraid that we would run.

23       Q.   Excuse me, if you could follow me, I would like to turn back to

24    that canal when you were carrying explosives.

25       A.   You mean sewage?

Page 4315

 1       Q.   Yes, sewage.  In the sewage tunnels, were guards also with you?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   And you crossed over to the other side where the BH army was.

 4    Couldn't you escape?

 5       A.   Yes, we could, but out of the 13 of us, four were brought in.  The

 6    brother of one man had already been killed and they told us that if one of

 7    them -- one of us runs, this man's brother would be killed.  And we

 8    couldn't run, in other words, because that man's brother would die.

 9       Q.   Tell me, did this explosive go off?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   Let us go back to Siroki now.  How tall is the man whom you refer

12    to as Colonel Andabak?  Is he like me or like you?

13       A.   No, he's taller.

14       Q.   Is he like me?

15       A.   Taller still, not much taller, though.

16       Q.   Not much.  I'm 170.  Is he 175 perhaps?

17       A.   No, more.  He is a very big man, broad-shouldered.

18       Q.   Tell me, did you ever see him on television before that?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   In October, you said you were released.  Did somebody release you

21    privately of their own accord?  Did they just say, "You're free to go"?

22    And who was it, if so?

23       A.   Mate Boban had intervened.

24       Q.   You hadn't mentioned that in your statement or in your testimony

25    before.  You said you were released by Tuta's deputy in October.

Page 4316

 1       A.   Yes, but it was after the intervention of Mate Boban that Andabak

 2    personally released me, from his office on the ground floor.

 3       Q.   Could you tell me, what is the connection between these Poskok men

 4    and the Convicts Battalion?

 5       A.   The Poskok men were in the same prefab house that we were placed

 6    in.  I said -- I didn't say anything about them being connected with the

 7    Convicts Battalion.  I only said there existed the Poskok Battalion.

 8       Q.   Apart from them, was there anyone else at the tobacco station?

 9    Were there any other soldiers who were stationed there, spent the nights

10    there?

11       A.   We would finish work about 5.00, 5.30, depending on the day --

12       Q.   Sorry for interrupting you, Witness, but if you would be so kind

13    as to follow my question.  You give me very extensive answers all the

14    time.  I'm supposed to lead you by my question to make this more concise

15    and articulate, but I don't seem to be having much success.  I put to you

16    a very simple and clear question.  Apart from these Poskok men, were there

17    any other troops stationed at this Tobacco Institute that you know of?

18       A.   Not even the Poskok Battalion spent the nights there.  The

19    soldiers didn't sleep there.  They only came by day.  Nobody slept there

20    except for us prisoners.  In another part of the Tobacco Institute, I

21    can't say, because we weren't allowed to walk around the perimeter, except

22    a little in front of our building, we were allowed sometimes to stay

23    outside for 10 or 15 minutes.

24       Q.   All right.  About these people whom you enumerated, Cikota, Romeo

25    Blazevic, Darko Dodig, and some others, were they from Siroko or did they

Page 4317

 1    come from Mostar?

 2       A.   Cikota came from Siroko.  I know that because I went to work on

 3    his house for about a month with interruptions.  Romeo Blazevic came from

 4    Mostar.  Darko Dodig resides in Mostar.  Where he is from originally, I

 5    don't know.  And who else did you ask about?

 6       Q.   I don't know.  Those are the names that you mentioned in your

 7    answers to my learned friend.  I believe there was one Vinko.

 8       A.   Yes, you mean the waiter.  He came from Mostar.

 9       Q.   Do you remember that in your statement given to the investigators

10    of this Tribunal, you said that all of them were from Mostar and that they

11    came from Mostar?  Do you remember that?

12       A.   Yes, I do, except for Ivan Cikota.  Yes.  He came from Mostar

13    too.  Dolma came from Mostar.

14       Q.   Just a moment, please, if you can.  In your statement, you only

15    mentioned the persons whose names I just read to you and you said that

16    they were from Mostar, and now that you mentioned the others that you

17    mentioned, you only saw them in Ljubuski; is that correct?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Isn't there a difference there?  Don't you notice that?

20       A.   Yes.  They also came from Mostar to Ljubuski.  All the persons I

21    mentioned who as having come in to beat people, all came from Mostar,

22    instead of Cikota and the others who came late at night.

23       Q.   Now, tell me, the alleged questioning from -- on the part of the

24    SIS and person you called Andabak, was it not all about why a certain

25    person was released that allegedly this Bosnjak person released him and

Page 4318

 1    how much money was given for that?  Wasn't it all about that?

 2       A.   Andabak's questioning was before the SIS and VOS questioning and

 3    it was the questioning about some safe and some money, allegedly in a

 4    basement in Vranica.

 5       Q.   Very well, stop there now for a moment.  Do you know that you

 6    never mentioned that until now?

 7       A.   I did not mention Andabak?

 8       Q.   No, never by full name.  And you never mentioned that Andabak

 9    questioned you about a safe.  You nowhere mentioned that at any time.

10    I'll give you a statement so you can look at it.

11       A.   No.  I remember.  Because I remember I said that on the 78th day,

12    he questioned us.  I think that that is record -- that was recorded.  I

13    did not mention details in my statement.

14       Q.   Right.  Now, can you tell me, what is the truth here?  Did Andabak

15    question you or not?

16       A.   On the 78th day of my arrival on the 10th of May, I was questioned

17    by a colonel who identified himself as Colonel Andabak in a room -- in

18    their office where the guards were guarding us.  And those were the guards

19    who were with us at the Tobacco Institute who were there in Siroki Brijeg.

20       Q.   Very well.  No need to repeat it.  You said all that already.

21            So far, you have been telling us that you were guarded by the

22    members of the Convicts Battalion.  And a few minutes ago, you told me

23    that you were never guarded by the members of the Convicts Battalion,

24    either at the swimming pool or the canal?

25       A.   Our guards in the prison were members of the -- that is, in the

Page 4319

 1    Tobacco Institute --

 2       Q.   Hold on.  Are you referring to the Tobacco Institute as a camp?

 3       A.   Yes, because it was a camp.  That was part of the Tobacco

 4    Institute.

 5       Q.   Very well.  Then you said that you slept in the part of the

 6    building which was -- where the Siroki Brijeg battalion called Poskok was?

 7       A.   Poskok Battalion.

 8       Q.   And then I asked you what was their connection with the Convicts

 9    Battalion, and you said none.

10       A.   Half of the prefab building was the command post of the Poskok

11    Battalion, and the other part was where we were kept by these people.

12       Q.   Okay.  Tell me, if you remember, a name of any of these men.

13       A.   I remember Soldo, Zelenika.

14       Q.   Are these first names, last names?

15       A.   They are both last names.  One had nickname Djaga, and they showed

16    their IDs as belonging to Tuta's unit because they said they had no

17    problems when they were going to Mostar when they showed this ID.

18       Q.   And do you know you never said until now that this was Tuta's

19    swimming pool, and you never mentioned the name Jablanica before.  You

20    never mentioned it anywhere.  It is today for the first time that you are

21    doing it.

22       A.   I don't believe so.

23       Q.   I can give you the statement, and you can perhaps show me where

24    you mention the name of Andabak or Jablanica, or where did you mention

25    that Tuta and he was going to share this half and half.  In fact, I can

Page 4320

 1    say this, that you said about Andabak:  "On the 78th day of my detention,

 2    I was beaten by Tuta's deputy, a soldier nicknamed Robija, and another

 3    soldier in the compound of the command of the Convicts Battalion."

 4            That's all.  You never mentioned Jablanica anywhere, nor did you

 5    ever mention that it was Tuta's swimming pool, the one in the city.  I

 6    will give you the statement to look at.

 7       A.   I gave the basic information.  I did not go very wide because I

 8    would not have finished in four months had I described what I experienced

 9    day by day.  But I did mention that on the 78th day of my detention, I was

10    questioned, and the man who questioned me identified himself as Colonel

11    Andabak.  And when I left house, I also see him.

12       Q.   Witness, I did not want to give you the statement to look, but you

13    did not mention Colonel Andabak in any of your statement.

14            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

15            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  I would object, Your Honour, because one thing,

16    if the investigator asked this question or not, and if he wrote it down in

17    the witness statement.  He was asked today during the examination-in-chief

18    who was in charge, and that's why he gave the name of Jablanica.  I don't

19    think that it's an appropriate question from the Defence.

20            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Prosecutor, when we evaluate all this evidence, of

21    course we will take the live evidence this witness gave today as the

22    first-hand evidence.  As for the previous statement, we believe they have

23    only the reference value in this aspect.  But the Defence counsel has the

24    right to ask any questions arising from the previous statement.  That is a

25    matter for us to decide which evidence will be relied upon.

Page 4321

 1            Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

 2            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I have only

 3    a few more questions for the witness.

 4       Q.   In your statement, you said expressly that the canal for Tuta's

 5    home, and it was for his pool.  How do you know that he had a pool in his

 6    house?

 7       A.   Can you please give me the statement because that's not how it was

 8    stated.  A pool was mentioned, but it was the one over in the city.

 9       Q.   I'm going to underline it for you.

10            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] If I can ask the usher to please show

11    it to the witness.

12            JUDGE LIU:  I doubt very much whether we should put that statement

13    on the ELMO.

14            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, there is no secret, and there

15    are no names mentioned.

16       Q.   My question is:  Did you or did you not state this?  You said that

17    you never did.

18       A.   I did then.

19       Q.   So you did state it after all?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q. [redacted].

22            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. President, Your Honours,

23    maybe we should move into the private session, but this name was mentioned

24    in the open session a few days ago, but if you think that it should be

25    mentioned in private, we could.  I don't see what the secrecy is about.

Page 4322












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Page 4323

 1            JUDGE LIU:  Because this name was mentioned in the private session

 2    in the direct examination, so we should go to the private session.

 3                          [Private session]

 4   [redacted]

 5   [redacted]

 6   [redacted]

 7   [redacted]

 8   [redacted]

 9   [redacted]

10   [redacted]

11   [redacted]

12   [redacted]

13   [redacted]

14   [redacted]

15   [redacted]

16   [redacted]

17   [redacted]

18   [redacted]

19   [redacted]

20   [redacted]

21   [redacted]

22   [redacted]

23   [redacted]

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25   [redacted]

Page 4324

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 3   [redacted]

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 5   [redacted]

 6   [redacted]

 7   [redacted]

 8   [redacted]

 9   [redacted]

10   [redacted]

11                          [Open session]

12            JUDGE LIU:  Cross-examination, Mr. Seric?

13            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I have some questions, Your Honours.

14                          Cross-examined by Mr. Seric:

15       Q.   Mr. BB, I am Branko Seric, attorney from Zagreb, and I represent

16    Mr. Vinko Martinovic.

17            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have several

18    questions that I would like to ask in private session at the very

19    beginning so that we can then not need to go into the private session

20    again.

21            JUDGE LIU:  We will go to the private session.

22                          [Private session]

23   [redacted]

24   [redacted]

25   [redacted]

Page 4325

 1   [redacted]

 2   [redacted]

 3   [redacted]

 4   [redacted]

 5   [redacted]

 6   [redacted]

 7   [redacted]

 8   [redacted]

 9   [redacted]

10   [redacted]

11   [redacted]

12   [redacted]

13   [redacted]

14   [redacted]

15   [redacted]

16   [redacted]

17   [redacted]

18   [redacted]

19                          [Open session]

20            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

21       Q.   Mr. BB, you said --

22            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, please, sorry.

23            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   You said that you were beaten in the prison in Ljubuski and you

25    mentioned -- and my learned friend elicited names of Takac, Pehar,

Page 4326

 1    Blazevic, Dodig, from you.  When was this in relation to the day when you

 2    were arrested?

 3       A.   The -- on the ninth or tenth day.

 4       Q.   Can we agree this would have been around the 19th, 18th of May,

 5    1993?

 6       A.   Or the 19th.

 7            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Can I please ask the usher

 8    to show the witness Exhibit -- Defence Exhibit number D211 or P704 from

 9    the Prosecution binder?

10       Q.   Mr. BB, near the top, you have something that looks like a stamped

11    00795359.  That's a page number that appears to be stamped.  This is it.

12    Please look at it.  Just keep going.  You'll see the number 00795359.

13    Did you find it?

14       A.   Yes, I did.

15       Q.   Can you please read the part that is underlined.

16       A.   Combat group 4 -- I can't see it.

17       Q.   Very well.  What is under Item 1?  What is the name under --

18       A.   Damjan Peric.

19       Q.   And to the right?

20       A.   Commander, Captain.

21       Q.   How about 15?

22       A.   Romeo Blazevic.

23       Q.   Let's go back to number 3.

24       A.   Djuro Djidic, soldier.

25       Q.   Can you see the name of Vinko Martinovic written anywhere on the

Page 4327












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13   English transcripts.













Page 4328

 1    list?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Very well.  Can you now please turn to the page which has the last

 4    three digits 386.

 5       A.   Yes, I found it.

 6       Q.   Can you see the name of the unit?

 7       A.   Vinko Skrobo.

 8       Q.   And who is under number 1?

 9       A.   Vinko Martinovic.

10       Q.   And what is to the right?

11       A.   Commander.

12       Q.   Very well.  Can you conclude from this that Martinovic was

13    commander to Blazevic, Peric, and Djidic?

14            THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat the answer.

15       A.   But Ernest Takac was.

16            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

17       Q.   That was not my question.  You can give the document back to the

18    usher.

19            Mr. BB, you mentioned some professor, teacher, Krilic.  We don't

20    know this person.  Did you know this person before the war?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   When did you meet him for the first time?  Do you remember?

23       A.   In the camp.

24       Q.   Where in the camp?

25       A.   At the pool, because he lived in Dobrkovic.

Page 4329

 1       Q.   Was this at Ljubuski or Siroki Brijeg?

 2       A.   Siroki Brijeg.

 3       Q.   Witness BB, this is now at page 21, line 9 through 13.  You stated

 4    that you saw him for the first time in Ljubuski?

 5       A.   No, not at all, because he could not have been at Ljubuski with

 6    another 56 prisoners throughout this period.  Until his death, he was at

 7    the school in Dobrkovic.  That's where civilians from Mostar from

 8    imprisoned, the ones that worked with us.

 9       Q.   I did not understand you.

10            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Seric, could you tell me from which document that

11    page 21, line 9 through 13 is.

12            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] That is in today's transcript, Your

13    Honour.

14       A.   You made a mistake.  That's a different professor.

15       Q.   No, no, no.  You said that was the name.  You said Professor

16    Krilic.

17       A.   No.

18            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I don't know how we're going to

19    resolve the problem.  In the transcript today, on page 21, lines 9 through

20    13, witness mentioned Professor Krilic in Ljubuski, and that's when they

21    talked for the first time.

22            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

23            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  It seems to me my learned colleague is mistaken.

24    He mentioned some professor from Mostar without giving his name.  Krilic

25    is not mentioned.

Page 4330

 1            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone to Her Honour.

 2            JUDGE CLARK:  My note says Professor Krilic.  My note agrees with

 3    Mr. Seric.  My note here says somebody was killed with a karate kick in

 4    the chest, and my cryptic note has "Professor Krilic" beside it, and then

 5    the next question was, Who was in charge?

 6            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  It's a different camp.  It's Dobrkovic.

 7            JUDGE CLARK:  Let me see what my note says.  At that time, he was

 8    talking about Mr. Tuta's house and digging the canal.

 9            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  It's different.  It's different.

10            JUDGE CLARK:  It's a different occasion --

11            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Yes, it's a different occasion.  Ljubuski was

12    somewhere in May, and digging the canal was in July or August 1993.

13            JUDGE CLARK:  It was in the early part of the evidence, yes.

14            JUDGE LIU:  Well, the transcript says, A professor from Mostar,

15    who was brought just with his socks on his feet, and with his jaw

16    swollen.  It does not mention any name.

17            JUDGE CLARK:  That's not the occasion when he is describing a

18    professor who was killed.

19       A.   That professor was mentioned in context with Stela, but I didn't

20    mention his name.

21            MR. SERIC:

22       Q.   [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  I know that I heard this last name,

23    but I must be mistaken.

24            Tell me, did you know that professor from before?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 4331

 1       Q.   Where did he live?

 2       A.   In Bosnica [phoen] Street.

 3       Q.   Which part of town was it?

 4       A.   It was Pijesak or -- it was Pijesak near the first primary

 5    school.

 6       Q.   Did you talk to him then?

 7       A.   When he was brought there, yes.

 8       Q.   Did he tell you when he had been arrested, and did you tell

 9    anything about the circumstances?

10       A.   On the fourth day after our arrival on Siroki Brijeg, he was

11    brought with just his socks on, with his jaw swollen to such an extent

12    that the policemen brought him Aspirin for pain.  He said, "I was brought

13    from my apartment," and we asked him who had hit him, he said, "Stela and

14    his men."  Who he meant by "his men," I don't know.

15       Q.   Mr. BB --

16       A.   I didn't see Stela.

17       Q.   With the passage of time, Witness, does your memory get better or

18    worse?

19       A.   My memory is good, thank God.

20       Q.   With the passage of time, though, does your concentration

21    deteriorate?  Do some details become blurred or not?

22       A.   I was -- I'm trying to forget, and some details I managed to edit

23    out.

24       Q.   But a few years ago, when you were giving the statement, your

25    memory of these events was better, wasn't it?  So why wasn't this

Page 4332












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13   English transcripts.













Page 4333

 1    mentioned?

 2       A.   I didn't want my statement to become a novel.  I wanted to say the

 3    most important things, the essence, to the investigators, and when the

 4    trial begins, I thought I would get an opportunity to clarify all the

 5    details.

 6       Q.   So today we are going to hear the novel?

 7       A.   Believe me, if I recounted day for day what happened to me there,

 8    it would have been a novel.

 9       Q.   Don't you think it would be valuable to this Tribunal?

10       A.   That's why I came here, to recount everything, day by day, if so

11    required.

12       Q.   But I'm telling you, you didn't mention it in 1997.  If your

13    reason is that you didn't want to write a novel then, then that can be the

14    end of my questions.

15       A.   That's true.  I didn't go into too much detail because the

16    statement would take too long.

17       Q.   Were you questioned about Vinko Martinovic, Stela, at that time?

18       A.   The questions that they asked were answered in the statement.

19    They mentioned twice Stela.  They asked me whether I saw him on Siroki

20    Brijeg.  I said yes, when I did the paint work and when I cleaned the

21    offices in Tuta's headquarters.

22       Q.   And even then, you didn't see fit to mention this incident?

23       A.   No, because the beating of prisoners was a regular occurrence, and

24    if you mentioned every instance of it, it would take very long.

25       Q.   So on the 4th and 5th of May -- sorry, 4th and 5th of September,

Page 4334

 1    when you were giving the statement, you were also aware of this incident.

 2    You were aware of this incident even then?

 3       A.   The 4th of September?

 4       Q.   1997, when you were questioned.

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And did you fail to mention it on purpose or you had forgotten it?

 7       A.   No.  I didn't forget it because that's impossible to forget,

 8    because that professor asked later to be brought shoes, and when he got

 9    his Aspirin and his pain killers, we borrowed them from him.

10       Q.   Who was the warden in Ljubuski prison?

11       A.   I don't know.  I never set eyes on him.

12       Q.   That warden, was there a warden at all?

13       A.   I don't know.  We were released four times within three days into

14    the courtyard and we didn't see anyone apart from the couple of guards who

15    were standing there, and the people who had arrived on that particular

16    day.  Since I spent there only two nights and three days before I left

17    Ljubuski, I couldn't learn much about it.  I didn't see anything but the

18    courtyard.

19       Q.   Does it mean that there was no one in control in Ljubuski?

20       A.   From what I saw, yes.

21       Q.   Did you ever report the abuse by soldiers, even outsiders?

22       A.   No, never.  I managed to get out of there, to escape outside, and

23    I tried to forget.  I tried to forget all that I had gone through.  I

24    tried to return to the normal life that I had before the war.

25       Q.   In Siroko, when these persons whom you had mentioned would come in

Page 4335

 1    - and we read their names just a minute ago - did they do so of their own

 2    accord?

 3       A.   They were let in by the policemen.  The policemen probably had to

 4    unlock the doors for them, and they would come in and beat at random,

 5    indiscriminately.

 6       Q.   What time of day was it?  I'm sorry, I don't -- I'm not skipping

 7    from one prison to another on purpose, but that's where my questions are

 8    taking me.  Was there any control over the guards, seeing how people from

 9    outside could come in as they pleased?

10       A.   I can't possibly know if and what kind of control there was

11    because we were locked up constantly.  From 9.00 p.m. to 3.00 a.m., people

12    came in dressed in a variety of uniforms.  The doors of our cells would be

13    unlocked and we were beaten, which means there was no control over them.

14       Q.   Tell us, did it happen on several occasions, on different days?

15       A.   From the first night when we were brought to Ljubuski, it happened

16    every night.

17       Q.   Did you know, did you know then, or did you find out later, that

18    these soldiers who visited - you said they were not from Mostar - that

19    these soldiers were under anyone's control?

20       A.   I don't understand.  They came in as they pleased and did as they

21    pleased, which means they were under no control.

22       Q.   Did they have a commander?

23            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the answer.

24            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   Yes.  Were they behaving violently in an arbitrary way of their

Page 4336

 1    own accord?

 2       A.   As I said, they came after 9.00 p.m., most of them after 12.00,

 3    and they were under the influence, drunk, which probably means they came

 4    straight from various bars.  And they came in -- I don't know whether

 5    somebody sent them or they came of their own accord.  But they did come.

 6       Q.   Can we agree, based on this, that they were rowdy and drunk, if I

 7    can use this term?

 8       A.   Most of them were, indeed, intoxicated.  And judging by their

 9    bloodshot eyes, some of them may have been drugged.

10       Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us from your experience -- I don't know

11    how rich it is --

12       A.   Very rich.

13       Q.   Can you tell me from your experience with people if men in such a

14    wild state, prone to violence, under the influence of alcohol and other

15    substances, are possible to control, especially if they are armed?

16       A.   They didn't come in with their weapons, with their rifles.  And

17    control can be exerted over anyone by anyone who wishes to exert control.

18       Q.   Yes, we can probably agree on that.  But there are certain special

19    states, conditions which are difficult to control.  That's what I had

20    meant.

21            Did you ever complain about this situation in Ljubuski to the

22    warden, to anyone who could possibly hear out your complaint about such

23    behaviour on the part of people who had nothing to do with the prison at

24    all?  Did you ever complain about this wilful violent behaviour?

25       A.   Civilian policemen were present, because they held the keys to our

Page 4337

 1    cells.  It was them who unlocked the cells in the first place, and they

 2    told us, "We are not in a position to help you.  We are civilian police.

 3    These men here are soldiers in uniforms."  They couldn't help us.

 4       Q.   Mr. BB, you mentioned on several occasions the anti-terrorist

 5    group, abbreviated as ATG, and you referred to the Mostar ATG, saying that

 6    this group was commanded by Vinko Martinovic.  Are you aware of the fact

 7    that on the territory of Mostar, there were several such ATGs and several

 8    commanders?

 9       A.   There was Juka Prazina.

10       Q.   Have you heard of Benko Penavic group?

11       A.   No.

12            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Please show this witness

13    Exhibit 14.19, Prosecution Exhibit.

14       Q.   On this photograph, do you recognise --

15       A.   I don't see anything, sir.

16       Q.   I'm sorry, I'll wait.

17            Can you see now?  Do you have the photograph on your screen?

18       A.   No -- yes, I see.

19       Q.   Can you recognise the demarcation line, that is the Bulevar?  Can

20    you point it to us?

21       A.   Let me get this closer.  I'll put it back.

22            One cannot see the Bulevar here.

23       Q.   Can you see the Santic Street?

24       A.   Yes, I can see it.  Yes, I can see the Santic Street.

25       Q.   Do you recognise in the right quarter of the photograph, this

Page 4338

 1    street going across?

 2       A.   It's going towards the old hospital.

 3       Q.   Do you know the name of that street, if you can possibly

 4    remember?  Doesn't matter.

 5            Do you see the Health Centre on this photograph?

 6       A.   No, not the Health Centre.

 7       Q.   Please leave the photograph there.

 8            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly like to show this

 9    witness the Prosecution Exhibit from the 10th volume, P521.  Sorry, it's

10    the 11th volume, the 11th binder.  Exhibit 521.

11            Be so kind as to read for us the title of this.

12       A.   Command of the 1st battalion --

13            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter cannot follow.  We do not have

14    this document.  Will you put it on the ELMO, please.

15            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

16       Q.   Please read us parts of the line and show us which part of the

17    line was held by the HVO and tell us what the first paragraph says?

18       A.   "The positions are held by members of PS of Mostar."  I don't know

19    what "PS" is.  "Within the first 12 hours, on the first defence lines,

20    there are 12 policemen plus another 12 policemen in a state of combat

21    readiness, on alert."

22       Q.   That's enough.  Now you see the second paragraph, "Old high

23    school"?

24       A.   "I have a request.  Since from the 10th May onwards, I don't know

25    about the demarcation line because I was on Siroki Brijeg, all I know is

Page 4339

 1    that near the third school, there were sacks put up, and I was brought

 2    behind the house of Mujaga Komandina through a demolished house up to the

 3    high school, and that's where I carried the explosives.  As for the

 4    defence lines" --

 5       Q.   Sir, allow me to lead me with your questions, and you have just

 6    started answering them, but we have to follow a sequence.

 7            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters repeat that they do not have this

 8    document.

 9            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   I agree with you that you couldn't know about this when you were

11    in prison at the time.  Below the part of the paragraph which says, "Line,

12    old high school," read for us.

13       A.   "Positions are held by members of the 1st Battalion of the

14    military police, whereas reserve positions are held by members of the

15    Mostar PS."

16       Q.   Turn the page.  You will see a line that says, "Old high school,

17    Health Centre."  Read it for us?

18       A.   "Positions held by 4th -- 3rd Battalion of the HVO Brigade."

19       Q.   Now, read this?

20       A.   "Positions are held by Mrmak ATG."

21       Q.   The next paragraph, we see, "Aleksic House Zahum."  Read the first

22    sentence.

23       A.   "Positions held by the 4th Battalion of the 3rd Brigade of the

24    HVO."

25       Q.   Does it follow from this that the zone of responsibility of Vinko

Page 4340

 1    Martinovic is precisely the Health Centre?

 2       A.   I don't know.  I wasn't anywhere near the Health Centre.

 3       Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  That's enough.

 4            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

 5    would like to show this witness the drawing 14.2.  It's from the first

 6    binder.

 7       Q.   Witness BB, can you orient yourself on this drawing, to show us

 8    with a pointer Aleksa Santic Street, one, Bulevar, two, and the Health

 9    Centre, three?

10       A.   High school and Bulevar, Health Centre.

11       Q.   Where would that primary school and the courthouse be located,

12    where you said you set explosives, you laid explosives?

13       A.   Right here.  That's where the primary school is.  That's where the

14    courthouse is.  This is the primary school.  I mean the courthouse.

15       Q.   Show us where Balinovac is, or Balinovac, whatever the accent is.

16       A.   [Indicates]

17       Q.   You said today, in your examination-in-chief, that it was from the

18    soldiers themselves that you found out they belonged with Stela's unit,

19    and you said some of them bragged of this fact.  Is it possible that they

20    -- some of them simply bragged without really being members of Stela's

21    unit?

22       A.   Anything is possible.  But not in regard to Dolma whom I

23    mentioned.

24       Q.   Please, just answer my questions.  You said that many, without

25    naming names, many bragged that they belonged to Stela's unit.  I'm asking

Page 4341

 1    you again:  Is it possible that some among these many bragged without

 2    really being members?

 3       A.   I said yes.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  Are you aware - and I have a reason for asking this,

 5    without going into your background or that of my client - are you aware

 6    that Vinko Martinovic joined the Convicts Battalion after the 12th of May,

 7    1993?

 8       A.   I don't know.

 9       Q.   Is it possible that it was based on some other circumstances that

10    you belonged in a circle close to Vinko Martinovic?

11       A.   A circle?

12       Q.   Yes.

13       A.   Well, at Balinovac, I socialised for a long time, for many years,

14    within a certain circle of people among which Vinko Martinovic, Stela, was

15    well known.

16       Q.   And one last question:  Can you remember today who worked together

17    with you on the town swimming pool?  If you can remember those names, we

18    might go into private session.

19       A.   You mean the town pool at Siroki Brijeg?

20       Q.   Yes.

21       A.   I can remember seven or eight names.  Because for two days,

22    another team of our people worked there, and I can't remember exactly who

23    I worked with.

24            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] If I may ask, Your Honours, that we go

25    into private session once again so the witness can tell us these names.

Page 4342

 1            JUDGE LIU:  We will go to the private session.

 2                          [Private session]

 3   [redacted]

 4   [redacted]

 5   [redacted]

 6   [redacted]

 7   [redacted]

 8   [redacted]

 9   [redacted]

10   [redacted]

11   [redacted]

12   [redacted]

13   [redacted]

14   [redacted]

15   [redacted]

16   [redacted]

17   [redacted]

18   [redacted]

19                          [Open session]

20            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President.  I

21    apologise, Mr. President, for saying that it was the last question, but I

22    forgot two or three very important questions, while we still have

23    Exhibit 14.2 in front of the witness.  Shall we continue with this now, or

24    shall we leave it for tomorrow?  I am at your disposal.

25            JUDGE LIU:  It is time for us to adjourn.  We will resume at 9.30

Page 4343

 1    tomorrow morning.

 2                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

 3                          4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on

 4                          Tuesday, the 23rd day of October, 2001,

 5                          at 9.30 a.m.