Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4344

1 Tuesday, 23 October 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric -- call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, this is case number

8 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric, please.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, Your

13 Honours, good morning to all.

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Seric: [Continued]

15 Q. [Interpretation] Witness BB, good morning.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. I have a few additional questions but I first want to take you

18 back to the map, the map that you looked at yesterday. This is -- this is

19 P11.18.

20 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] And if I can ask the usher to please

21 hand it to the witness? Yes. And the copy, please, because the witness

22 is going to mark it. So I don't know whether my learned friends would

23 like to check the copy to see whether it is a copy of the original.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Defence map is marked D2/12.

25 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We can move on.

Page 4345

1 Q. Witness BB, can I please ask you to take a marker and mark the

2 position of the Health Centre on the copy?

3 A. [Indicates]

4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, perhaps you can give the

5 witness a marker so that he can do his markings.

6 Q. Will you please mark it with number 1?

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Very well. Will you now please put number 2 in the area which you

9 described as neighbourhood called Pijesak, where that professor used to

10 live?

11 A. Excuse me, this street -- I don't know the old name of the Queen

12 Katarina Street.

13 Q. Is that the area next to Zahum?

14 A. The area where the first elementary school was.

15 Q. Will you mark it with number 2, then?

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Will you then mark with number 3 the old Zagreb Bank which was

18 then -- which then became a ministry and in front of which you were

19 taken?

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Now, just one more mark, number 4, for the school of mechanical

22 engineering.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Thank you. We are done. Oh, yes, one more thing, the Tobacco

25 Institute, which would be number 5 now.

Page 4346

1 A. You cannot see it here.

2 Q. Will you then just place an arrow in the direction where the

3 Tobacco Institute would be?

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Very well. Thank you. We are done with this map.

6 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] If I can now ask the usher to get the

7 witness P496. This is from binder 10 of the Prosecution file.

8 Q. Is there a B/C/S version in there? Is it only an English version

9 or is there also a B/C/S version? The front page should have the heading

10 the "Defence Department Report." Do you have it? It seems that you do.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Will you please read the heading out loud to us?

13 A. The "Military Police Administration Report."

14 Q. Very well. First paragraph.

15 A. "Line of readiness."

16 Q. Can you then read the next paragraph.

17 A. "9th Battalion of the HVO Brigade."

18 Q. Next paragraph.

19 A. "Health Centre held by ATG Mrmak."

20 Q. How about the next page?

21 A. "Aleksica houses held by Benko Penavic."

22 Q. Next one.

23 A. "4th Battalion, 3rd Brigade."

24 Q. Based on this quick reading, do you agree with me that there were

25 several ATGs deployed in the area?

Page 4347

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Are you saying that only one ATG existed in Mostar?

3 A. That's not what I ever said, sir.

4 Q. Very well. Thank you.

5 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that concludes all our

6 questions.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr. Prosecutor?

8 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I don't have

9 any further questions.

10 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from Judges? Judge Clark.

11 JUDGE CLARK: I have a few questions.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE CLARK: Witness BB, I understood you to say at the beginning

14 of your evidence that you had been with an HVO unit until the date on

15 which the Vranica building was attacked.

16 A. Yes, I said that. It was the 4th Battalion, group for maintenance

17 of facilities.

18 JUDGE CLARK: So can I take it that you were not in any way

19 informed that there was going to be an attack on the town of Mostar on the

20 9th of May?

21 A. No, I was not informed.

22 JUDGE CLARK: Do you think that the intelligence of the HVO would

23 have known of your involvement with the Bosniak side in the weeks

24 previously?

25 A. No.

Page 4348

1 JUDGE CLARK: I go on to something different now. You stated that

2 you're a light sleeper, and that for the previous few weeks, there had

3 been a United Nations tank parked fairly near to where the Vranica

4 building is, and it was there because hostilities were rising between the

5 two factions. And yet you said that on that particular morning just prior

6 to the commencement of the attack, the tank seemed to leave the town of

7 Mostar. I find that very, very strange. Is there any explanation for why

8 the United Nations tank would leave the town at the very moment when its

9 presence would be so important?

10 A. Yes. At 3.00, the tank, which was parked at the intersection near

11 the School of Economics, in front of the Vranica, started its engines. It

12 was a quiet night. One could hear it, and it left its position.

13 JUDGE CLARK: And I take it that you've never heard any

14 explanation for why the tank should have left at such a crucial time.

15 A. No.

16 JUDGE CLARK: Now, you're a local Mostar man, and obviously before

17 the real hostilities started, you would have known the characters who were

18 in the leadership on the Bosniak side and the Croat side. You told us

19 that you knew Mr. Martinovic for 25 years because of sport and so on but

20 that you didn't socialise with him.

21 Did you know the other accused in this case, Mr. Naletilic, Tuta?

22 A. No, only by sight.

23 JUDGE CLARK: So you did know him by sight. I know he came from

24 Siroki Brijeg and he had lived in Germany, but you did know him by sight.

25 A. Yes, because he came back before the outbreak of hostilities to

Page 4349

1 fight against the Serbian side.

2 He was a frequent visitor to Mostar, went to a well-known

3 restaurant in Bijeli Brijeg, where the others also gathered. I saw him

4 two -- three or four times, because he has a characteristic appearance,

5 and I was told who he was.

6 JUDGE CLARK: During the aggression or the defence of the town of

7 Mostar and the region against the Serb aggression, did Mr. Naletilic have

8 a military description, according to reports?

9 A. When you crossed from the right bank to the left, in order to

10 liberate the area from the Serbs, the army and the Convicts Battalion

11 operated together. That is during the liberation of Mostar. The

12 commander of this battalion was Mr. Naletilic.

13 JUDGE CLARK: So even at the time that the two sides were fighting

14 together, the commander of the battalion was Mr. Naletilic? I just want

15 to be sure about that.

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE CLARK: Now, being a native of Mostar and understanding the

18 language, the name that has been given to this battalion is the Convicts

19 Battalion. Sometimes it's called the Punishment Battalion. They seem to

20 be used interchangeably. What did you, as a local Mostar resident,

21 understand by the term "Convicts Battalion"?

22 A. We understood it - and perhaps this is a little bit harsh to say -

23 that people who were clearing the terrain, and these were the people who

24 would leave everything -- who would clear everything out of the way.

25 JUDGE CLARK: In a scorched-earth policy sort of way? Is that

Page 4350

1 what you mean?

2 A. Not scorched, but rather cleared of the enemy forces, of the enemy

3 personnel.

4 JUDGE CLARK: That would indicate that they were very tough, but

5 where does the word "convicts" come into this? Did they have to have

6 served a prison sentence? Did they come from jails? Or are we being

7 given a sort of loose translation of the word?

8 A. No. They were not former convicts. Perhaps some were.

9 JUDGE CLARK: So if I understand that in order to be a soldier in

10 Mr. Naletilic's platoon, one had to have served time in jail, I would be

11 incorrect; is that right?

12 A. Yes. You would not be right.

13 JUDGE CLARK: I would not be right. So can I take it that you

14 would have been aware of the existence of this tough battalion that was

15 good at clearing out the enemy for some time before the attack on Mostar

16 on the 9th of May?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE CLARK: Now, if I bring you to Mr. Martinovic, you said that

19 he was -- first of all, you knew him, and secondly, that his movements

20 were distinctive because of the car that he drove, a pink, American

21 convertible. Was that before the attack on Mostar?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE CLARK: It was. Did you associate Mr. Martinovic with any

24 military activity prior to the 9th of May?

25 A. Yes. At first, when the conflict broke out between the Serbs on

Page 4351

1 the one side and the Croats and Muslims on the other side, Mr. Martinovic

2 was a commander of HOS in Mostar.

3 JUDGE CLARK: We've heard that HOS is a right-wing, Croatian

4 organisation.

5 A. At that point, both the HOS and HVO and Muslims were all together.

6 JUDGE CLARK: I see. So you associated Mr. Naletilic with

7 military activity as well?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE CLARK: Were you surprised to hear his counsel, Mr. Seric,

10 say that Mr. Naletilic -- sorry, Mr. Martinovic, didn't in fact join the

11 Convicts Battalion until after the attack on Mostar? I think that's the

12 first time this Court has heard that, that he didn't join the Convicts

13 Battalion until after the 9th of May, 1993.

14 A. That is not the information I have. When the HOS was dissolved,

15 he remained in the HVO units. That is, he joined the HVO units.

16 JUDGE CLARK: How would you have known that, Witness BB?

17 A. In Mostar, there exists a group who transferred from the HOS to

18 the HVO. They said that their commander was Stela. He was in uniform.

19 That means that he was with units.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Did you know anything about -- I know you were

21 arrested on the 9th. But did you know anything about a particular part of

22 the town being under the control of Martinovic, Stela, the place around

23 the medical centre? Did you know anything at all about that, or did these

24 events occur after you had been arrested?

25 A. No, I did not know.

Page 4352












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Page 4353

1 JUDGE CLARK: You knew nothing about that.

2 Now, if I can bring you to your period of captivity, this Court

3 has heard a great deal about swimming pools. And you pointed out to us in

4 a photograph of the Tobacco Institute in Siroki Brijeg, which appears to

5 be a very, very large installation. In that photograph, we saw -- the

6 sound is very high, isn't it? Is that better?

7 In that photograph, we saw a swimming pool over on the right-hand

8 side of the photograph. From what I heard -- what I understood of your

9 evidence, it was a sort of public or municipal swimming pool that was

10 being repaired. Am I correct in that?

11 A. Yes. It was a municipal pool which had been neglected for ten

12 years. And we went to clean it out, and also the area around the pool for

13 this projected sports centre. And both Jablanica and guards said that it

14 would be shared half and half between Jablanica and Tuta.

15 JUDGE CLARK: Where was that swimming pool in relation to Tuta's

16 house that you could partially see through the walls? And then you said

17 you had a better view when you were near the school, you could see the

18 side of it. Where was the swimming pool vis-a-vis that particular house

19 or villa?

20 A. The swimming pool was directly across from the Tobacco Institute

21 where the Convicts Battalion command headquarters was. And Tuta's house

22 was 5 or 6 kilometres away from that. I wouldn't be able to tell you

23 exactly, but it was that distance from the pool.

24 JUDGE CLARK: A fair distance away. Now, I appreciate that you

25 never worked at Tuta's house but you worked in the near vicinity. Was

Page 4354

1 there a swimming pool at that villa as far as you could see? Did you --

2 A. I did not see it.

3 JUDGE CLARK: You didn't see. So any swimming pool that you are

4 talking about is the semi-abandoned municipal pool beside the Tobacco

5 Institute. That's the only pool you're talking about.

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE CLARK: Now, my last question is that you mentioned some

8 torture that you suffered at the hands of Ivan Cikota.

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE CLARK: Did you know anything about his brother who had been

11 killed just prior to these events?

12 A. Only that he was a well-known and good fighter in the Convicts

13 Battalion and that he was killed somewhere near Prozor.

14 JUDGE CLARK: So you were aware that this Ivan Cikota had a

15 brother whose name might have been, I think, Mario Cikota. You were aware

16 of that? And he was a sort of hero in the Convicts Battalion. Is that

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you very much.

20 I'm sorry, there's just one important area. Do you remember when

21 you described how you and other prisoners were painting a building at

22 Siroki Brijeg and cleaning the carpets?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE CLARK: You described it: a separate building, it's a

25 house, in fact, and you described that as being Tuta's headquarters.

Page 4355

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE CLARK: Who gave you the order to paint that house and to

3 clean the carpets?

4 A. Our guards would only pick out three or four men, whatever they

5 would need, and take us wherever work needed to be done.

6 JUDGE CLARK: And you said that Mr. Tuta came there one day to

7 just see how the work was progressing.

8 A. Yes, because he was on the ground floor where the offices were.

9 And we were working upstairs.

10 JUDGE CLARK: Do you have any doubt in your mind that this was

11 Tuta's particular building?

12 A. No, it wasn't Tuta's house, Tuta's building. It was the

13 headquarters, the command of the Convicts Battalion within the Tobacco

14 Institute.

15 JUDGE CLARK: So does that mean that Mr. Andabak would have been

16 there, too?

17 A. Yes, on the ground floor.

18 JUDGE CLARK: You were telling us that Mr. Andabak, when he

19 introduced himself to you, called himself Tuta's deputy.

20 A. Right. Colonel Ivan Andabak, Tuta's deputy.

21 JUDGE CLARK: And is that the word that he used, "deputy"?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you very much, Witness BB.

24 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge Clark's questions? Yes?

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, only one question.

Page 4356

1 Further Re-examination by Mr. Poriouvaev:

2 Q. Witness BB, could you tell me, during your direct examination, you

3 stated that you had seen Stela in Tuta's headquarters in Siroki Brijeg.

4 Do you remember if he was dressed in military uniform at that time?

5 A. I can't remember. They were standing in front of the building,

6 but I can't remember.

7 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

9 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I didn't want to

10 intervene, not to disturb my colleague, but there was no question in

11 cross-examination about the presence of Vinko Martinovic in Siroki Brijeg

12 so this additional question by my learned friend wasn't really necessary.

13 But let's go on.

14 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Seric:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Something remained unclear, Witness BB. I

16 wouldn't like the Trial Chamber to remain confused. I did not try to

17 infer that Vinko Martinovic had left Mostar in my cross-examination, but I

18 just asked you whether Vinko Martinovic joined the Convicts Battalion

19 after the 12th of May, 1993, and then you answered that you didn't know.

20 A. The 12th of May?

21 Q. After the 12th of May, 1993. And yesterday you answered that you

22 were not aware of it.

23 A. Sir, I was -- I was arrested after the 10th, and I don't know how

24 the political or the military situation developed.

25 Q. I just wanted to repeat my question as an introduction, and I

Page 4357

1 wanted to make it clear to the Trial Chamber, to make it clear that I

2 wasn't trying to present some sort of theory through my

3 cross-examination. But I hope it is clear now. And you have answered my

4 question.

5 Today, in response to a question by Judge Clark, you said that you

6 knew that Vinko Martinovic was a member of the HOS. Could you tell me,

7 how do you know that? Or let me ask you directly, to make this short.

8 Were you a member of the HOS under Vinko Martinovic?

9 A. No.

10 Q. In your statement of September 1997, you said you were a member of

11 HOS under Vinko Martinovic. Could you explain this?

12 A. I rather wouldn't.

13 Q. You rather wouldn't?

14 A. For private reasons.

15 Q. Let's tackle this in another way. Do you know whether there were

16 any Muslims in a large percentage, at that almost 70 per cent, in the HOS

17 unit under Vinko Martinovic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know anything about the attitude of Vinko Martinovic

20 towards Muslims in that unit?

21 A. It was the same, equal.

22 Q. No difference as compared to Croats?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Was it correct -- do you want me to repeat?

25 A. No, it was correct.

Page 4358

1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] No further questions.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

4 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Krsnik:

5 Q. Be so kind as to tell me, if you know, when was the Convicts

6 Battalion established?

7 A. I wasn't there when it was established.

8 Q. Did you hear that it was set up and got that name as a reference

9 to political prisoners during the communist regime?

10 A. I'm not aware of that.

11 Q. And are you aware --

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Poriouvaev?

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I would object because now the

14 parties are authorised to ask questions emanating from Judge Clark's

15 questions and responses so -- of the witness, but now we are going beyond

16 the questions posed by Judge Clark. So did Mr. Seric.

17 JUDGE LIU: I quite agree with you in this point but we are very

18 interested to know that, where the Convicts Battalion, the name of that

19 comes from.

20 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

22 Q. So you're not aware of that?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Judge Clark also asked you whether you knew the position of

25 Mr. Naletilic in the war against the Serbs and you said he was commander

Page 4359

1 of the Convicts Battalion.

2 A. The HOS, sir.

3 Q. Naletilic, I mean.

4 A. No. You mean Stela? I thought Stela. No.

5 Q. Who was commander of the staff, commanders of zones, commanders of

6 brigades, divisions at that time?

7 A. I was a civilian in the war against the Serbs. I don't know any

8 of that.

9 Q. Tell me, do you know whether a recreation centre was ever built at

10 that swimming pool?

11 A. I don't know. I have no such information. Until October 1993, it

12 wasn't built.

13 Q. Tell me, do you know who gave the order to clear out that pool?

14 A. No. We were taken there by the police to do the work.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. No more questions. Was

16 it recorded that the police took them there? Thank you, no further

17 questions.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for giving the evidence. We all

19 wish you good luck. When the usher pulls down the blinds, you can go.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you, too.

21 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Prosecutor, at this moment, do you have any

22 documents to tender into evidence?

23 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would tender into evidence Documents --

24 Exhibits P11.18, 16.4 and 16.5 under the seal, 26.9, 26.10, 39.1.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 4360

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, how about P14.3?

2 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I wouldn't tender it into evidence.

3 JUDGE LIU: I think there are some marks made by the witness.

4 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, there are some marks, but I don't insist on

5 having it in evidence.

6 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

7 Yes, Mr. Seric.

8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I have no objections, Your Honour.

9 But I would like to tender on behalf of the Defence the map that was

10 marked with numbers by the witness this morning. We got a number D2/12.

11 And this last document which the witness looked at regarding the

12 demarcation line, and that was Exhibit 5496. I would tender it as a

13 Defence exhibit.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no objection,

16 because all of these are photographs. The only thing is the Defence would

17 like also to tender the previous statement of this witness or, rather,

18 only its relevant parts. You remember in the previous statement he said

19 he was a member of the BH army, that he didn't see, et cetera, so we are

20 leading that statement, only the relevant parts, and have it translated

21 into English because we really can't keep up with the translation

22 requirements, and we have a lot of work. So we would like to tender the

23 previous statement of this witness.

24 JUDGE LIU: Any objections from the Prosecutors?

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I don't have any objections.

Page 4361












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Page 4362

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. All those documents have been admitted

2 into the evidence. And Madam Registrar will give them proper numbers.

3 As for the Document PP11.18, which has already been admitted into

4 the evidence, now we have the marks made by the witness, so I believe it

5 should be a new number.

6 Yes, before the next witness, there are two things I would like to

7 inform both parties. The first matter is about the Friday afternoon

8 sitting. After consultations with my colleagues, we believe that we have

9 been -- we have some previous appointments of the other obligations on

10 Friday afternoon. So at least in this month, there's no Friday afternoon

11 sitting. There might be some possibilities for next month.

12 The second thing is that this Trial Chamber is seized by the

13 motion filed by Defence counsel to hold a status conference in accordance

14 with Rule 65 bis. We do not think there's any precedent for a status

15 conference being held during the trial on the basis of Rule 65 bis. That

16 rule is meant to ensure that no accused spends more than 120 days in the

17 detention unit without seeing a Judge. However, that does not rule out

18 the possibility for this Trial Chamber to devote some time, mainly on the

19 procedural matters, during the trial. So this Trial Chamber invites both

20 parties, especially the Defence, to provide the Trial Chamber with a list

21 of issues which they intend to raise with this Trial Chamber so that we

22 could make the decision whether we should have this kind of meeting on

23 procedural matters or not. Thank you.

24 Next witness, Mr. Prosecutor. Yes, Mr. Scott.

25 MR. SCOTT: Yes. Mr. President, I'll be handling the next

Page 4363

1 witness. If we can just shift here for a moment, and then I have one or

2 two matters to raise before the witness comes in.

3 Mr. President, just in terms of what you just said, just to

4 clarify, as I understand the Court's statements about the schedule, we

5 would not work Friday afternoon this week. And you said month, and I

6 assume you might have meant week. But there's the question a week from

7 Friday, that is next week Friday afternoon, is still an issue, if I

8 understood you correctly.

9 JUDGE LIU: There's a possibility. At this stage, I could only

10 say there's a possibility.

11 MR. SCOTT: All right. Well, Your Honour, obviously we have to

12 build a plan accordingly, and that determines how many witnesses come and

13 travel from Bosnia or not. We can't do that, of course, on the spur of

14 the moment. So we would ask the Court to give us as much guidance as

15 possible as early as possible.

16 Just to clarify for the record, Your Honour, in terms of the last

17 witness statement that was offered by Mr. Krsnik, we will state a

18 continuing position, a continuing objection to the receipt, as we have

19 said before, to the receipt of statements, witness statements, into

20 evidence as substantive evidence.

21 We understand the practice of having them marked for

22 identification for the record, as they might be considered for purposes of

23 credibility, but we have said since the depositions, and continue to say

24 and it continues to be our position and will continue to be our position,

25 that such statements should not be accepted as substantive evidence.

Page 4364

1 Again, the evidence, we believe, from a witness is the testimony given in

2 the courtroom. And that's our position. I'm not asking for the Chamber

3 to agree. I'm just simply making it for the record so our position is

4 clear.

5 Your Honour, the next witness will be a protected witness. He has

6 asked for a pseudonym and face and voice distortion. I have raised this

7 previously with the staff. Voice distortion, as you may know, does

8 involve some additional complications, but that's what the witness has

9 requested.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you will allow me

12 this opportunity to respond to my learned friend, to his latest

13 intervention regarding prior statements, I really have to say that I don't

14 understand. And sometimes I'm really in a position in front of this Trial

15 Chamber to -- forced to discuss the system that we are working in, and it

16 seems I don't really understand, and I don't even know the things that I

17 thought I knew. I never thought I had to deal with such things as a

18 lawyer. The prior statements referred to by the Prosecutor, and I want to

19 note that there had been no objection before and now we hear there is one,

20 this is the only time that the Defence in this whole tactics and the

21 phantasm of prior trials, that is the only opportunity we have to check --

22 to put to the test the credibility of a witness, because if a witness

23 didn't -- wasn't telling the truth in previous trials, then what is the

24 purpose of those witnesses? And it was based on those statements that an

25 indictment was brought. And now the Prosecution is objecting to having

Page 4365

1 this in evidence. I really can't understand. And I contest this most

2 strongly.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, we are not debating on this issue.

4 Are you going to say something on this very issue? We are not debating

5 here.

6 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] It is on the same issue but not the

7 same thing. I just wanted to let the Trial Chamber know that the

8 Prosecution should be reminded of the Grassberger book, "The Psychology of

9 Penal Proceedings," from the end [sic] of the century, which says clearly

10 that the passage of time affects the credibility of a witness's

11 statements, and we can see this best if we compare previous statements

12 with current ones.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, no, Mr. Scott, we are not going to spend much

14 time on this issue.

15 MR. SCOTT: I thought you wanted me to call the next witness, Your

16 Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: I have to ask whether there is any objections from the

18 Defence side as for the protective measures. Are there?

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] As usual, Your Honours, the Defence

20 has no objections.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much.

22 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I assume Mr. Seric didn't have

23 objection to the protective measures either, just for the record. I don't

24 think there was a response on the record on protective measures from

25 Mr. Seric, as opposed to Mr. Krsnik.

Page 4366

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may call your next witness, Mr. Scott.

2 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Your Honour, for the record, I repeat my

3 previous position. I'm sorry, Mr. President, you didn't hear me. I don't

4 believe there is anything on the record concerning Mr. Seric's position on

5 protective measures for this witness. I think you only heard from

6 Mr. Krsnik.


8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will repeat for the

9 record, I agree with protective measures.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

11 MR. SCOTT: Thank you. Mr. President, this next witness will give

12 testimony concerning or relevant to the following issues, that is

13 background, paragraph 7, 10 and 11; superior authority, paragraphs 14 to

14 17; general allegations including such matters as international armed

15 conflict and the existence of widespread and systematic behaviour,

16 paragraphs 18 to 21; count 1, persecutions, paragraphs 26, 28, 31, 33, and

17 34; counts 2 to 5, forced labour, paragraph 44; counts 9 to 12, wilfully

18 causing great suffering, paragraph 45 and 50; and count 21, plunder,

19 paragraph 57.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, witness.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

24 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration?

25 THE INTERPRETER: No microphone.

Page 4367

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE LIU: I believe there is some problem with the microphone.

6 Would you please check it, Mr. Usher?

7 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we can hear it.

8 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please.

9 Examined by Mr. Scott:

10 Q. Witness, can you hear me?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Witness, I will inform you now that the Chamber has granted

13 certain protections for you in connection with your testimony, and those

14 are the following: You will testify using what is called a pseudonym,

15 which means that your real name will not be broadcast or be placed on the

16 record. That will be a matter of confidentiality. Also, your facial

17 image as displayed on any sort of broadcast will be distorted so you

18 cannot be seen, and your voice will also be distorted.

19 Now, having said all those things, let me caution you about a

20 couple of things. In order to maintain these protections, I would advise

21 you and caution you not to use -- you might inadvertently tend to use your

22 own name or a family name or mention a close family member which might

23 tend to identify you. So I'm going to caution you not to, if you can

24 think about it, not to do those things to avoid identifying yourself.

25 Also, the voice distortion adds another level of complication to the

Page 4368

1 procedure; that is, I have to turn off my mic after I ask you a question

2 so that the system will function. So that will be more my problem, I

3 suppose, than yours, but just so you know what's happening. That's the

4 procedure that we have to follow.

5 Witness, I've asked if a piece of paper be put in front of you

6 bearing your name. This is so that the record shows your true name. But

7 it will otherwise be completely protected and sealed. So I'm going to ask

8 you now, don't state your name, but will you please look at that piece of

9 paper and say -- answer yes or no, is that your name?

10 A. Yes.

11 THE REGISTRAR: His pseudonym is CC.


13 Q. Witness, you just may have heard, may have been translated for

14 you, that the pseudonym or name, if you will, the symbol that's going to

15 be used to refer to you is going to be "CC," that is double "C." So if

16 you hear that, that's the purpose. It's not meant as any sort of

17 disrespect or to cause confusion. You'll be referred to as "Witness CC."

18 Do you understand that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Witness, I understand that in April -- by way of background -- in

21 April of 1993, you went to the ABiH headquarters in the Vranica building

22 in Mostar, and during those days, joined the ABiH. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. Several days later, you went to an ABiH position or facility at

25 that time that was located in Hotel Mostar. Is that correct?

Page 4369

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, is it true, Witness, that on the 16th of April, there was

3 some shelling of Hotel Mostar. And if the answer is yes, can you just

4 briefly describe what happened in that regard on the 16th of April.

5 A. On the 16th of April - actually even before, 14th and 15th - one

6 could feel certain tensions. And on the 16th, there was shelling. We

7 were inside. Some were outside, of course. And the shooting started.

8 The shelling started. And as far as I know -- actually, I do know that

9 some shells fell on the surrounding buildings, too.

10 Q. All right. You said tensions were increasing --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.


13 Q. You said that tensions were increasing around that time. Did you

14 have personal knowledge of any sort of deadline or ultimatum that had been

15 issued for the 15th of April, 1993?

16 A. I personally did not know about the ultimatum, but I did see men

17 in black uniform, the so-called HOS. We saw them moving about, and there

18 was tension because we were wondering why the HOS would be passing through

19 there.

20 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, on the 17th of April, do you recall,

21 that is the next day, do you recall some sort of a cease-fire agreement

22 being signed between the ABiH and the HVO?

23 A. I do remember Mr. Arif Pasalic came and said that there would be

24 an agreement that we had to move from that part of Mostar. But I don't

25 know with whom he reached this agreement. But I know that UNPROFOR was

Page 4370












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4371

1 also there.

2 Q. When you say there was an agreement to leave that part of Mostar,

3 are you talking about leaving -- the ABiH leaving Hotel Mostar?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And do you know to where that unit was to relocate?

6 A. I know where I personally transferred. UNPROFOR was moving people

7 and their vehicles. I know that I was transferred to the left bank, to

8 Konak.

9 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, if you know, in the days following the

10 17th of April, 1993, what did you observe in terms of whether the HVO kept

11 or complied with the cease-fire?

12 A. I don't know that they completely complied with it, but it was

13 less intensive than -- intense than on the 16th, that is, the shooting on

14 the 17th.

15 Q. Do you recall there continuing to be sniper fire after -- from the

16 HVO side after the 17th?

17 A. Yes, I remember.

18 Q. All right. Now, directing your attention a few days forward,

19 around the 21st or 22nd of April, did you and some other men join the ABiH

20 military police?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And where were you based -- excuse me. Once you became part of

23 the military police, where were you based?

24 A. I was based in Semovac, near Hotel Ruza, that is Semovac.

25 Q. Apart from your base, and distinguishing where you lived, if you

Page 4372

1 will, and spent the evenings or non-duty hours, what was your duty station

2 at that time?

3 A. When I was on duty, I was at the headquarters in the Vranica

4 building.

5 Q. Now, directing your attention to the 8th of May, were you on duty

6 in the Vranica complex on that day?

7 A. From 2.00 in the afternoon onward, yes.

8 Q. Now, when I said just now intentionally "the Vranica complex," was

9 there another building, a part of that complex, which you may refer to,

10 and others, as the logistics building?

11 A. Yes. I was at the logistics building exactly.

12 Q. And can you tell the Chamber what was the relationship or the

13 proximity between the logistics building or portion of the complex and the

14 Vranica building where the ABiH 4th Corps headquarters was located?

15 A. They were connected. They were linked with a passageway that was

16 sort of like almost like an underpass or something. There were four or

17 five metres from one door to the other. That is not the front door of the

18 Vranica but the back door of the Vranica and the door to the logistics

19 building were in close proximity.

20 Q. Is it correct, sir, that altogether there were about eight

21 soldiers, ABiH soldiers, and three logistics staff in the logistic

22 component of the building?

23 A. Yes. I believe so, yes.

24 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, if we could go into private session

25 for one or two questions concerning the names of others persons, please?

Page 4373

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session.

2 [Private session]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]


Page 4374

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We are now in the open session.


7 Q. Witness CC, I'll repeat my question to you. Directing your

8 attention to the 9th of May, that is the next day, 1993, can you tell the

9 Chamber where you were on that morning and what happened?

10 A. When the first shells started falling, I was asleep. And as the

11 shells started falling - now I'm talking about my own experience - I

12 jumped up and it was heavy shelling at that time.

13 Q. Where were you located at that time?

14 A. In the dormitory in the basement. There was a dormitory there.

15 Q. As we have been discussing in the last few minutes, was that the

16 logistics portion of the complex?

17 A. Yes, in the logistics portion of the complex.

18 Q. Could you tell, or were you able to observe, at any point around

19 that time, where the fire was coming from and what kind of fire it was?

20 A. It was coming -- my feeling was it was coming from all sides. At

21 first, it was shells, the first -- it was all kinds of shells.

22 Q. And what was happening as the shelling -- just give us a bit of a

23 picture as to what you saw happening around you as the shelling started.

24 What were people doing? What was happening?

25 A. Well, panic ensued. Civilians were panicked because, of course,

Page 4375

1 if shells are falling, you don't know where they were going to hit. And

2 it took us a while to -- for to us get our bearings. We couldn't get

3 out. One soldier tried to get out and was immediately hit by a sniper.

4 We pulled him back in and --

5 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, I seem to lose translation. I heard the

6 witness speaking but I didn't hear any translation.

7 A. Everybody ran for cover.

8 Q. Around this time, did you ever gain a position or a vantage point

9 where you could look outside the building and see what was happening?

10 A. Well, we peeked out the windows where the fire was coming, but you

11 couldn't really determine where they were coming, from Hum, from Goranci;

12 it was coming from all over the place. It was unbelievable.

13 Q. Did there time come a time when you were able to see individual

14 members of the attacking forces?

15 A. Indirectly, no. But no, I couldn't see if I had seen it. I would

16 have to shoot, too, but I could not see it.

17 Q. All right. Witness CC, perhaps my question was not well formed.

18 I'm not asking you if you could identify by name or face any particular

19 opposing soldier. But were you able to tell from what unit or from what

20 military force or organisation this attack was coming from?

21 A. Military organisation was the HVO.

22 Q. All right. What happened next in terms of those of you who were

23 in the logistics building that you just described to us in the last few

24 minutes, what did you do?

25 A. What did we do? We were there for a while, and then when they

Page 4376

1 took the building, when the HVO took the building, with another five men,

2 we fled across the rooftops to the Vranica building.

3 Q. Were you able, in fact, to make it to and into the Vranica

4 building, at least again, that portion which housed the ABiH 4th Corps

5 headquarters?

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, I think we have heard a lot about

7 this. Could you please lead this witness into the crucial points.

8 MR. SCOTT: Of course, Your Honour.

9 Q. You moved from the logistics component into that part of the

10 Vranica building where the headquarters was located. Is that correct,

11 sir?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. For the purposes of avoiding private session, I'm not going to ask

14 you these names now because I think the names will come up again in the

15 future, in the future parts of your testimony anyway. But a number of

16 those people who you named a few minutes ago, did they go with you, travel

17 with you, if you will, from the logistics component to the headquarters

18 component?

19 A. We were altogether six. One was killed, and one was left behind

20 or stayed behind from my unit.

21 Q. All right. Now, Witness CC, to follow the President's guidance,

22 would it be fair to say, then, as a summary, that you and the others then

23 stayed in the Vranica building for the remaining part of the 9th of May,

24 and that the attack continued around you during that time?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4377

1 Q. And in addition, when you reached the Vranica building, can you

2 tell the Chamber, were there also a number of civilians in that building?

3 A. Yes. In fact, it was a civilian building.

4 Q. Directing your attention to the morning of the 10th of May, did

5 the artillery shelling begin again around 5.00 or 6.00 in the morning?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Around 9.00 or 10.00 that morning, on the 10th of May, did anyone

8 come to the building, or did you hear a voice or someone demanding that

9 the occupants of the building surrender?

10 A. Yes, I heard.

11 Q. Can you identify the person either by what you saw or heard or

12 both that was making that demand at that time?

13 A. Yes. The person identified himself as the mayor of Mostar,

14 Jadranko Topic, and commanded that we surrender.

15 Q. Did the occupants of the Vranica building immediately surrender at

16 that time? That is, when I say occupants, that is both the military

17 personnel and the civilians. Did you surrender?

18 A. No. We remained there for a while.

19 Q. Now, sometime after that, did you -- was there -- were there

20 further demands that the occupants surrender coming from another person,

21 that is coming from someone other than Jadranko Topic, the mayor of

22 Mostar?

23 A. A little later, as I recall, it was Juka who called on people to

24 surrender. But that morning, it was Jadranko.

25 Q. When you say "Juka" just now, is that a person perhaps more fully

Page 4378

1 known as Juka Prazina?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What did you know, either then or did you come to know, of who

4 Juka Prazina was in terms of his military position and role at that time?

5 A. At that time, I did not know, but later on I learned that he was

6 with the Convicts ATG unit.

7 Q. Did you know or come to know who Juka Prazina was subordinate to

8 in terms of who his commanding officer was?

9 A. Later on. At that time, I did not know anything.

10 Q. What did you learn later on?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what did you learn later on? Did you learn who his commanding

13 officer was? And if you did, will you please tell the Chamber the name of

14 that person.

15 A. You mean the commander?

16 Q. Yes, sir.

17 A. Mladen Naletilic, called Tuta, was his commander.

18 Q. Do you recall how it is you heard that or how you know that?

19 A. I personally heard it from Juka Prazina when he invited me to come

20 over and join his unit.

21 Q. All right.

22 MR. SCOTT: Well, for the Chamber, we'll come to that sometime

23 later in the witness's testimony.

24 Q. Going back to the 10th of May, after you saw -- after you heard

25 Juka Prazina making this further demand that the occupants surrender, what

Page 4379












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4380

1 happened next?

2 A. We stayed on inside. There was -- the fire was still being --

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 A. I think it was Juka Prazina. And in fact, I'm not sure whether it

8 was Juka or Jadranko, because this took place on the third floor. So I'm

9 really not certain.

10 Q. All right. Did there come a time shortly after that that, in

11 fact, the occupants of the building did surrender and leave the Vranica

12 building, around 2.00 on the 10th of May approximately?

13 A. Yes. Around 1400 hours, somewhere around that time, we came out

14 and surrendered.

15 Q. All right. Now, Witness just so there's no confusion about this

16 and so the Chamber is clear, is it correct that some of the ABiH soldiers

17 changed out of their uniforms into civilian clothes prior to the time that

18 they surrendered?

19 A. Yes, we changed into civilian clothes. In fact, all soldiers who

20 were part of the brigade came out dressed as civilians.

21 Q. Now, as you came out of the Vranica building, did you see any

22 soldiers or officers associated with the HVO?

23 A. When I came out, of course, they all gathered already. I saw

24 Juka, I saw Zeljko Bosnjak. And Zeljko said to us, "You balijas thought

25 you could keep us out?" I don't know what he meant.

Page 4381

1 At that time, I did not know them, but later on, I came to know

2 them all, during the time I spent in the camp at Siroki Brijeg.

3 Q. During that time, in terms of the two men you just mentioned, Juka

4 and Zeljko Bosnjak, did they identify or say anything that you overheard

5 or was said to you that identified the unit that they were with?

6 A. I did not know right away, I did not know about the convicts and

7 Juka Prazina, because I had been in Mostar for a very brief period. But

8 later on in Siroki Brijeg, I learned it all.

9 Q. Well, let me ask the question this way: After this date and in

10 Siroki Brijeg and other places, did you continue to see these persons,

11 Juka Prazina and Zeljko Bosnjak?

12 A. Yes, yes, I did see them.

13 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I've always noticed the clock on the

14 transcript is a bit different than the clock on the wall but the clock on

15 the wall indicates it's 11.00, if you want to stop.

16 JUDGE LIU: We will resume at 11.30.

17 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, before you start, Mr. Scott, there are two

20 things I want to mention. The first one is to remind both parties we will

21 start at 3.00 until 4.30 this afternoon because of the other obligations

22 of the Judges during the lunch break.

23 The second matter is that we are informed that medical examination

24 of Mr. Naletilic will be performed on Thursday, November 1, 2001, from

25 12.00 noon to 2.00 in the afternoon at the Academic Medical Centre in

Page 4382

1 Amsterdam. We believe this is a very important medical exam. So could we

2 kindly ask the Defence counsel for Mr. Naletilic to allow us to sit in the

3 morning without the presence of his client, in the morning session? Well,

4 we understand that it is difficult for the Defence counsel to make the

5 decision at this moment, but I hope that the both parties could discuss

6 this matter during the lunch break. We understand it depends on which

7 witness the Prosecutor is going to call on that day.

8 Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can tell you

10 immediately, because I know, the position of my client. He does not want

11 to interfere with the schedule of this trial in any way.

12 I want to say something different. I wanted to accompany him this

13 time to the hospital and talk to the doctors, but in that case, too, there

14 will be no problem because my partner will be able to take over. If you

15 want me to stay, however, I will go to Amsterdam another day. In any

16 event, there will be no change of schedule on our behalf.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation. As for your

18 accompanying your client to Amsterdam, I think we have to consult with the

19 registrar about this matter. Thank you.

20 So, Usher, would you please call in the witness?

21 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise. I thought it was the

23 other Thursday. This Thursday, there will be no problem at all. I mean,

24 I wanted to go to Amsterdam the other Thursday, not this Thursday. I

25 thought it was the Thursday after this coming week.

Page 4383

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

2 Yes, Mr. Scott.


4 Q. Witness CC, we were up to the point of time you and the others had

5 come out of the Vranica building. You saw several individuals, including

6 Juka Prazina and Zeljko Bosnjak. Around that time, did you see anyone

7 else with Mr. Prazina that appeared to you to be doing something or

8 identifying people?

9 A. Well, when we were coming out of the Vranica building and when we

10 were lined up, one of our soldiers was singled out by Juka and questioned

11 as to who were the soldiers among the people.

12 Q. Can you identify for the Chamber --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


15 Q. Can you identify for the Chamber who that particular soldier was

16 who was singled out to identify people.

17 A. Yes. But do you want me to do that in open session or in --

18 Q. If you feel more comfortable --

19 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, can we go to private session for one

20 moment, please.

21 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session.

22 [Private session]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4384

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE LIU: We are now in the open session.


19 Q. Witness CC, my question to you, was there then a separation of

20 various people who came out of the building into different groups and what

21 happened to them?

22 A. Yes, able-bodied men were separated on one side, and women and

23 children on the other side. I didn't see that, but I heard Zeljko Bosnjak

24 saying that Croat men and women should be separated into yet another group

25 and released to go home. What happened next to those groups, I don't

Page 4385

1 know. I only know what happened to our group, the group in which I was.

2 Q. All right. Very well. Before we get to that, can you tell the

3 Chamber, is it correct that there were some journalists, some Croatian

4 journalists, there including a TV crew from Zagreb?

5 A. Yes. There was "Slobodan Dalmacija," the newspaper, and the state

6 television from Zagreb.

7 Q. Now, what happened to the group of the men that you've told us

8 about? The able-bodied men, I think you said. What happened to that

9 group of people once you had left the building and been separated?

10 A. Well, they lined us up there, and they took us away in the

11 direction -- I don't know whether it was the mechanical engineering

12 faculty or some ministry. I don't know because I don't know Mostar well.

13 But they took us to this building. What kind of building it was, I really

14 don't know. While they were taking us there, one of us was forced to

15 carry Sefer's picture, and we were also made to sing some songs.

16 Q. When you say "Sefer's picture," you're referring to Sefer

17 Halilovic?

18 A. Yes, I mean Sefer Halilovic.

19 Q. What kind of songs were you forced to sing?

20 A. I think something like, "the smell of lilies pervading the

21 fields," because it was Juka who expressly demanded that we sing that.

22 Q. Well, when you say "lilies," does that have some particular

23 symbolism that the Chamber -- you might be able to help the Chamber with?

24 A. I think so, because lilies were our emblem. It was on our

25 military emblems.

Page 4386

1 Q. When you say your emblem, you're talking about the Bosniaks or the

2 ABiH; is that correct?

3 A. I mean the BH army.

4 Q. When you say you were taken to this building, is it accurate that

5 you walked for some seven or ten minutes approximately to this further

6 location?

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

8 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I believe that's a leading

9 and suggestive question, and I'm going to object on that ground.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. It is a leading question. Would you please

11 rephrase your question?

12 MR. SCOTT: You're right, Mr. President, and based on what the

13 Court's told me, I'm going to continue to lead where -- I'm going to

14 continue if I think it's not a critical item. Of course, counsel can

15 object, but you've told me, Mr. President, to try to be quicker. If we

16 certainly come to something where one of the accused is directly involved,

17 I can assure the Chamber I will change, but I'm trying to abide by the

18 Court's direction. I don't think it's particularly critical that they

19 walked for seven or ten minutes. But be that as it may, I will ask the

20 witness an open-ended question.

21 Q. Do you recall how long it took you approximately to get from the

22 Vranica building to this second location where you were taken?

23 A. About ten minutes or so. We didn't check the time but it was ten

24 minutes, certainly.

25 Q. When you got to this location, did you see any -- what appeared to

Page 4387

1 be HVO officials or officers there?

2 A. Yes. There I saw a large number of soldiers. At that time I

3 didn't know anyone, but I came to know them later. I saw Mr. Mladen

4 Naletilic, Tuta; I saw Basic, I saw Misic. And there were other soldiers,

5 too. In any event, there were a lot of troops.

6 Q. Did you around this time see or hear people addressing this

7 individual called Tuta? And if so, can you share with the Chamber

8 anything you heard them say or how it was that they addressed this Tuta?

9 A. Well, they addressed him. Misic addressed him. Somebody said

10 that we should be executed at once.

11 Q. All right. Well, we'll come to that in just a moment. Do you

12 recall how Tuta was dressed -- this person that you said was Tuta, how he

13 was dressed at that time?

14 A. I remember. He was wearing a uniform. He had a Motorola, with

15 which he immediately hit Alica Pobric, and he hit another man as well. I

16 don't know that other man. I just heard him saying, "Why me? We went to

17 school together." And he said, "Precisely, that's why."

18 Q. All right. Before we come back to what you just now told us, if

19 you allow me, before you get to that point, you've now told us a couple of

20 things. You said there was also a statement about some of you being

21 executed. Now, tell us more about that. What happened and what was said,

22 in terms of whether some of you should be executed?

23 A. Well, this was expressly demanded by Misic and Tuta, that we

24 should be executed at once, while Basic and Juka opposed them, defending

25 us. They said that was not the place for us to be executed.

Page 4388












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Page 4389

1 Q. Do you recall Juka saying anything to you about - sorry, not to

2 you - Juka saying anything around that time about needing you as prisoners

3 to exchange for other of his -- others of his unit?

4 A. Yes. Juka did say that he can't execute us because he has his own

5 soldiers in Zenica that he needs to get in exchange for us, that we were

6 his prisoners.

7 Q. Now, you already told us that you saw a couple of prisoners or so

8 being -- being beaten.

9 A. Yes. I saw Alica Pobric and that man. And I got a blow from

10 Juka. I don't know why. Because the commotion started when execution was

11 mentioned, a commotion among Juka and the other people from the HVO.

12 Q. All right. Witness CC, give me a moment, please, just to check

13 the transcript on something. You said -- just so the record is clear,

14 you've mentioned, in this exchange about you being -- some of you being

15 executed, you mentioned four names, Misic, Tuta, Juka and another

16 individual, a fourth individual, and I'm not sure the transcript is

17 correct. Can you name that fourth individual again? One of the ones who

18 you said opposed you being executed?

19 A. I don't know his first name, but I heard his last name was Lasic.

20 Q. Thank you. All right, now, moving beyond Mr. Pobric being hit,

21 you said that you saw and heard a second person, perhaps, and maybe a

22 third. I'm not sure; I'm about to ask you. Who else did you see being

23 hit after Mr. Pobric was hit?

24 A. Just when we arrived outside that building, we were in a file. We

25 were lined up. Tuta came carrying a Motorola, and he immediately hit

Page 4390

1 Pobric. And then they removed him slightly from us. I believe Juka was

2 with him, and then I saw him on the edge of my field of vision. You

3 didn't dare really look around because we were ordered to look down. But

4 we did look, and I saw when a man of medium height, 170 centimetres

5 perhaps, blond with a small beard, get hit. And I heard that man saying,

6 "Why me, when we went to school together?" And I heard Tuta saying,

7 "Precisely, that's why." But I didn't see anything else. Then, guns

8 were pulled out, and a shot was fired.

9 Q. All right. Witness CC, let me go back for one moment before we

10 get too far ahead. You said -- a moment ago, you said that as soon as

11 Tuta struck Pobric, that Juka came up and, you said, "removed him slightly

12 from us." Can you tell us more about what you saw Juka do in that regard

13 and if you saw or could see where Pobric was taken.

14 A. Well, he remained there close to us. He wasn't taken away

15 anywhere. He remained in proximity. But I believe Juka protected him.

16 Juka was protecting Alica.

17 Q. All right. Proceeding on, then, was a group of you then taken on

18 a bus, placed on a bus, and taken somewhere else?

19 A. Yes. I remember. When they rejected the possibility of

20 execution, Tuta personally said, "Balijas can go to Listica. Who said

21 they couldn't?" And then they ordered buses to come and take us to

22 Listica, that is, Siroki Brijeg.

23 Q. Were you taken to Siroki Brijeg -- were you taken then to the MUP

24 or Ministry of Interior station there?

25 A. Yes, we were taken on a bus outside the MUP building where we were

Page 4391

1 also lined up once again.

2 Q. What happened there?

3 A. We were questioned there about names, and they started beating

4 Goran Zekic.

5 Q. Can you identify, if you're able to, the particular person who was

6 beating Goran Zekic?

7 A. I can't say. It was none of those there. It was a simple

8 soldier. The chief of MUP, Cane, was present. I know that because I used

9 to work in the MUP. I just know the man's nickname. It was Cane. He was

10 present there.

11 Q. And after you were initially taken off the bus and this beating --

12 this initial beating occurred, were you then put into some sort of a

13 prison or holding facility there in Siroki Brijeg?

14 A. Yes. We were placed in two cells. We were taken to two cells

15 where we were crammed like sardines in a can.

16 Q. Could you tell or did you come to know during the time that you

17 were held there who was in charge of that facility?

18 A. Cane was in charge of the police administration. He was the

19 chief, which means he was in charge of that police station. Whether he

20 had a superior role, I don't know.

21 MR. SCOTT: Can I ask the usher's assistance, please, if the

22 witness could please be shown 26.6, 26.7, and 26.8. If those could be

23 placed on the ELMO, please.

24 Q. Witness, if you can first look at 26.6. Do you recognise what's

25 depicted or shown in that photograph? And if you do, can you please tell

Page 4392

1 the Chamber what it is.

2 A. Yes. This is the entrance down into the cell in the basement, the

3 cell where we were placed. From the corridor, you went to the basement,

4 and downstairs in the basement were the cells, below the level of that

5 floor.

6 Q. This was in the MUP station in Siroki Brijeg?

7 A. Yes, that's the Siroki Brijeg police station of the MUP, the

8 Ministry of the Interior. Those were the stairs down which we climbed to

9 get into the cells.

10 Q. Will you look, please, at 26.7. What is that?

11 A. Those are the cells where we spent time, where we were locked up.

12 Q. And there were approximately 18 of you in this cell?

13 A. Right.

14 Q. And can you tell the Chamber, when the time -- forgive me. At the

15 time that you were held there, did it look like this?

16 A. No, no, it didn't look like this. It was much worse. It was

17 dirty. It wasn't clean at all. There were no cots. There were no

18 blankets.

19 Q. Can you next look at 26.8.

20 A. Yes, this is the other cell.

21 Q. All right. Now --

22 MR. SCOTT: The photographs can be removed.

23 Q. The day after this, were some of the prisoners that you were

24 travelling with at that time or being held with, were some of them taken

25 to work somewhere in Siroki Brijeg?

Page 4393

1 A. Yes, we were taken to work at the swimming pool. The town

2 swimming pool, that's where we worked.

3 Q. Do you recall who it was that took you to that location? How were

4 you guarded or taken there?

5 A. As far as I can remember, it was the civilian police who took us

6 there. It was a long time ago, really. But we were guarded by the

7 drivers of the trucks that carried the waste and the branches and all the

8 litter that we gathered and loaded on to the trucks. Those drivers

9 guarded us.

10 Q. And did you work at the swimming pool on just the one occasion or

11 can you give the Chamber some idea of approximately how many times you

12 worked there?

13 A. In those seven days I spent there, I went to that swimming pool

14 only once.

15 Q. Now, directing your attention back into the holding area itself,

16 can you tell us about whether you saw a man there named Romeo Blazevic?

17 And what happened?

18 A. That was in the evening. The doors to the cells opened and a

19 soldier - I had seen him once before near the Vranica building in a coffee

20 bar, but I did not know who he was - so he burst in and started beating

21 people. He had a rod with a metal ball at the top, and with that rod or

22 stick, he started beating people.

23 Q. I'm sorry, go ahead, please.

24 A. I received a blow. I was near the door. I was not hit in the

25 head, but rather on the body and on the back, but people who were further

Page 4394

1 inside, who -- he could swing freely and hit people. He broke people's

2 heads, like Goran Zekic's, and also he fractured somebody's arm as they

3 tried to defend themselves. Then he pulled out a pistol and put it into

4 people's mouth, and blood was spurting all over.

5 Q. Directing your attention a few days further, was there a time when

6 some HVO soldiers came to the cell again during the night? And what

7 happened?

8 A. Yes. He did come. I did not know that then, but later I worked

9 for that man, Ivan Hrkac, called Cikota. In fact, I don't know if he had

10 adopted that name or not, but his real name was Ivan Hrkac.

11 Q. All right. Well, this may be a point where you can assist the

12 Chamber. Did you know this Ivan Cikota to be the brother of a man named

13 Mario Cikota?

14 A. Yes. He was a brother of Mario Cikota.

15 Q. And can you tell the Chamber please whether this brother, Mario

16 Cikota, had been killed sometime previous to the date you're talking about

17 now?

18 A. Yes, Mario was killed before. I did not know that, but he told us

19 that his brother was killed.

20 Q. When you say "he" just now, you're referring to Ivan?

21 A. Yes, I'm referring to Ivan, because a dead man cannot talk.

22 Q. Of course. And what was --

23 A. That is, Mario could not have said that.

24 Q. I think we can agree with that, Witness. Can you spell for the

25 record, so the record is clear, the last name of these two brothers, if

Page 4395

1 you know?

2 A. H-r-k-a-c. H-r-k-a-c.

3 Q. Did you know at that time, or come to know, that this brother,

4 Ivan Cikota, or Ivan, I should say, Hrkac, after his brother died, began

5 to also use the nickname Cikota?

6 A. Yes. I also heard soldiers who were around him, who came with him

7 when he came to beat us and later on when I worked for him, I also heard

8 them referring to him as Cikota.

9 Q. All right. Thank you for your assistance on that. This person

10 now that you've identified, Ivan Cikota, he came -- he was one of these

11 people who came into the cell, into the cell area, the holding area, on

12 the evening you began to tell us about; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that is correct. They opened the door and said, "You, you

14 and you, come out."

15 Q. And what happened after that?

16 A. Then these men would come out of the cell. There was something

17 like a kitchen area there, and this is where they beat these men.

18 Q. If you can, do you remember the names of any of the individuals

19 who were beaten around that time or that night?

20 A. Yes, I do remember.

21 Q. Can you say, please?

22 A. Yes. Right away?

23 MR. SCOTT: I guess private session, Your Honour.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 MR. SCOTT: We'd ask private session, Mr. President, out of

Page 4396

1 caution.

2 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session.

3 [Private session]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

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15 [redacted]

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Page 4397












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Page 4398

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8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

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19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [Open session]


24 Q. Sorry, witness. Perhaps with my intervention, my confusion, I

25 don't know if you got the question or not. Were some of you taken from

Page 4399

1 Siroki Brijeg to Ljubuski around that time?

2 A. Yes, seven or eight days later.

3 Q. And where were you held in Ljubuski?

4 A. We were held -- I really don't know. We were led out of the bus.

5 And under armed escort, we were taken to a place where there was wooden

6 floors, terrible -- it was like in Siroki Brijeg. There was a professor

7 there, sort of calculated that we each had 33 square centimetres of room

8 per prisoner. So the conditions were terrible.

9 Q. Witness CC, I'm not going to spend much time on Ljubuski. But is

10 it correct you were only held there for a short time?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. Approximately two days?

13 A. Two. Two, three days. And then 18 of us were returned to Siroki

14 Brijeg.

15 Q. All right. Before going back to Siroki Brijeg, can you tell the

16 Chamber a particular incident, if you recall, when someone came into the

17 holding area at Ljubuski and took you to do some work or took you

18 someplace else.

19 A. I remember that Robo Medic came on one occasion. I was cutting

20 wood at that time, and there were other people -- other prisoners who were

21 there with me who were chopping that wood.

22 Q. Were you able -- and I'll ask you why or how in a moment. But

23 were you able to identify what unit, what military unit, this Robo Medic

24 was from?

25 A. Yes, he was with the Convicts Battalion at Siroki Brijeg.

Page 4400

1 Q. How do you know that?

2 A. I know because I worked on a building that was being converted

3 into a barracks. And in fact, they all bragged that they were members of

4 the Convicts Battalion.

5 Q. Did they mention the name -- did he or the others -- you just said

6 "they." Did Mr. Medic or others identify their commander?

7 A. Yes, they mentioned the name. They mentioned the name on several

8 occasions because they would say, The boss ordered this and this, or, The

9 general ordered this and that. And it was Mladen Naletilic, Tuta. They

10 called him "Boss," "General," "Tuta."

11 Q. You said you were taken back to Siroki Brijeg. What happened

12 then?

13 A. When they brought us back to Siroki Brijeg, then the 18 of us were

14 placed in those two cells. There was another prisoner.

15 Q. Were you used to work any more after your return to Siroki Brijeg?

16 A. Yes, we went to work every day.

17 Q. Where did you work?

18 A. We first worked at the swimming pool until we were done.

19 Q. Was this the same swimming pool where you worked before?

20 A. Yes. But not everybody went to that pool. Because I personally

21 went to Ivan's house to work while others went to work at the pool. I

22 went with the others, too, at first, but then Ivan came and took me to his

23 house to work there.

24 Q. All right. Well, several questions coming out of that. But let

25 me first stay at the swimming pool for a moment. Do you recall who any of

Page 4401

1 the particular guards were or HVO soldiers that you were interacting with

2 when you were on work detail, if you will, at the pool?

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

4 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I object to the form of

5 that question. It assumes facts not in evidence. This witness has

6 previously testified that the guards were the truck drivers. And now, my

7 learned colleague is misstating the facts in stating HVO officers and

8 soldiers, and this witness already testified it was only the truck drivers

9 as guards. So I object to the form of the question, assuming facts not in

10 evidence.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, is this the same time?

12 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour, this is the second occasion. I will

13 rephrase the question, but there's no indication that it was the same

14 people on the second date. That's my question. I'll rephrase the

15 question, though.

16 Q. Who were you guarded by at the time you were working at the pool

17 the second time? The second series of times, who were you guarded or

18 watched by?

19 A. We were guarded by the same drivers, but now these drivers were in

20 uniform and they were carrying weapons, which means that they were

21 soldiers.

22 Q. Can you remember the names of any particular of these soldiers or

23 officers, and did you have any conversation or exchange with them in

24 connection with working at the swimming pool?

25 A. I remember that once when I was working, Zeljko Bosnjak came, and

Page 4402

1 he took me to Tuta and he said, "This is the mujahedin from Cazin." He

2 personally took me to Tuta and told Tuta, "Here is the mujahedin from

3 Cazin," because I was the only one from Cazin. Tuta said that --

4 Q. I'm going to interrupt you for a second. Sorry, Witness CC; my

5 apology. I just want to give you a pause so the Judges hear your

6 testimony.

7 JUDGE CLARK: Just a moment. That's why I was talking to the

8 President. You were talking about the few days that this witness had

9 spent at Ljubuski, and then you began to talk about somebody called Robo

10 Medic who came when they were cutting wood, but you never went back to

11 that incident. We went back to the cells in Siroki Brijeg without

12 elucidating that incident. Was that by intent or was it an accident?

13 MR. SCOTT: Probably a little of both, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE CLARK: If you don't want to go back, sorry for

15 interrupting.

16 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm trying to move quite efficiently, as

17 best I can but perhaps you're absolutely right that it may be worth

18 another answer or two.

19 Q. Witness CC, let me take you back for a moment to this interaction

20 with this man Medic. What did you do with him -- what further, if any,

21 interaction did you have with him during the time that you were still in

22 Ljubuski before being taken back to Siroki Brijeg?

23 A. He drove a bus. He came to take -- to take us there by bus, and

24 he took us to work at Siroki.

25 Q. Essentially, he took -- you had some interaction with him and he

Page 4403

1 took you, the group of you, back to Siroki Brijeg. Is that what you're

2 telling us?

3 A. That was only one day, but later when we came back from Ljubuski,

4 then he took all 18 of us in a bus to Siroki Brijeg.

5 Q. All right. I think -- let me go back then to this interaction

6 that you started to tell us about with Bosnjak. Now, can you go back --

7 if you can recall -- you're telling us about an exchange you have with

8 Bosnjak and he taking you somewhere. Can you please state your answer

9 again?

10 A. Yes. Zeljko Bosnjak, when he came to the swimming pool, because I

11 had worked at Zeljko's, and he knew where I was from. So he took me, and

12 he took me to Tuta, and he said, "Boss, general, this is the mujahedin

13 from Cazin."

14 Q. And what else happened on that incident? Was anything else said

15 or did anything else happen to you when he introduced you to Tuta?

16 A. Tuta looked at me, and he said, "Take him back to work at the

17 pool. The pool has to be finished." Those were the words. So I was

18 taken back, and I continued to work there.

19 Q. Moving forward, was there another time when this same Bosnjak took

20 you and some other prisoners to work at some place other than the swimming

21 pool?

22 A. Yes. He took me to his house, to his private house, to work

23 there.

24 Q. And approximately how long did you work at Mr. Bosnjak's house?

25 A. I worked at Zeljko's for about 15 days.

Page 4404

1 MR. SCOTT: Could I ask the usher to show the witness Exhibit

2 P49? Yes, if it can be placed on the ELMO, please?

3 A. This is Zeljko Bosnjak.

4 Q. That is the man that you've been telling us about in your

5 testimony now this -- well, now, this afternoon, and in connection with --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- this house where you worked?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did this Bosnjak ever say anything to you, or did you come to

10 learn, of any relationship or role that he had in connection with this

11 person Tuta?

12 A. Yes. He was a colonel in Tuta's army. He openly said that. He

13 did not hide it.

14 Q. Well, when you say "openly said it," what did he say in that

15 regard, as close as you can remember?

16 A. Well, I remember when I went to work at his house, that he said,

17 "I am Tuta's colonel, and you will work here." He had started building a

18 new house, and I -- I am a professional in this line of work, and I worked

19 a lot on this building.

20 Q. All right. Let me go forward. Apart from working at Bosnjak's

21 house, did there come a time when this Ivan Cikota, whom you've already

22 identified, came and took you to perform some work, or wanted to?

23 A. Yes. They quarrelled over who was going to take me to work for

24 them.

25 Q. Was there another HVO soldier involved in that exchange or around

Page 4405

1 that time? Let me rephrase that. I don't mean an exchange in terms of an

2 exchange of prisoners, but during the conversation, when they were --

3 Mr. Cikota and Bosnjak were having words, was there another HVO soldier

4 there?

5 A. There were soldiers there, but of the ones whom I knew was Juka

6 Prazina, but they always had their bodyguards, they always had soldiers

7 surrounding them.

8 Q. All right. Well, what happened as a result of this -- these words

9 between Cikota and Bosnjak? Did you go work for Cikota or did you go work

10 for Bosnjak or somebody else?

11 A. At that time, I worked for both of them. I went two days to

12 Zeljko's and then two days at Cikota's and so on.

13 Q. During the time that you were working at Cikota's house, did you

14 work there with any other prisoner that you've identified to us today?

15 A. Other work -- other soldiers worked. I can name them.

16 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, again, if we can go into private

17 session for, I think, one question, please?

18 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session.

19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4406












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10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [Open session]

13 MR. MEEK: The transcript, Your Honour, is not correct on these

14 names, and since the Prosecutor believes this to be important, we also

15 believe it to be important, and we ask that they be cleared up. Thank

16 you.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think we have to go back to the private

18 session to clear up those names.

19 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: We will go back to the private session.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4408













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Page 4409

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6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE LIU: We are now in the open session.


13 Q. Now, around this time, were some of you moved from the MUP station

14 to the tobacco station where you were held?

15 A. We were all transferred to the tobacco station except for one

16 prisoner who stayed behind. He wasn't with us at all. He was -- he

17 didn't belong with our group. And the 18 of us were moved to the tobacco

18 station.

19 Q. All right, Witness. About this person who stayed behind, I don't

20 know which person you are about to name. I don't know. Do you think it's

21 important? Is this a name that you feel is sensitive, or do you feel you

22 can tell us that name without going into private session?

23 A. No, I really don't know the name. I only know his last name was

24 Batlak, that he was a HOS man. And that perhaps at the beginning of the

25 war, he was wounded and his heel on one leg was missing. He was always

Page 4410

1 wearing this black HOS suit.

2 Q. Witness, I'm not going to pursue that further, then.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

4 MR. SCOTT: Sorry. I forget to go back and forth. My apology.

5 Q. After you were being held then --

6 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry, can the usher show the witness, please,

7 26.9.

8 Q. Looking at Exhibit 26.9, sir, is that -- when you say at the

9 tobacco station, is that a photograph of the tobacco station where you

10 were then held for some time?

11 A. Yes, there are bungalows of the tobacco station here in this row.

12 We were in the first one next to the fence.

13 Q. All right. Well, Witness CC, I had not intended to really spend a

14 lot of time on this at this point in the trial. But perhaps you can point

15 out where you were, the building you just now identified.

16 A. Maybe the first one next to the road to the fence here.

17 Q. All right.

18 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I don't intend to spend extensive time

19 identifying the location. I think, again, there comes a time. If counsel

20 wants to, they can. But we don't intend to pursue this with every single

21 witness.

22 Q. Now, during this time, after being moved to the tobacco station,

23 did you continue doing work from time to time for Bosnjak and Cikota?

24 A. For a while, yes. I went to work for Zeljko, for Ivan. And at

25 some point, that stopped.

Page 4411

1 Q. All right. Now, did there come a time when another -- someone you

2 have mentioned already, an HVO officer -- come back on the scene, if you

3 will, and want you to do something?

4 A. I really don't understand you. In which period?

5 Q. After the time that you went back to the tobacco station, were you

6 ever asked to join the HVO?

7 A. Yes. I had an interview when I was working in -- at Ivan's. Juka

8 came and offered me to join his men together with the other three who

9 transferred under him.

10 Q. Was any other HVO soldier involved in this same conversation, or

11 perhaps another conversation about you joining the HVO? And who was that,

12 if there was, and what did this person say to you?

13 A. I don't think we're talking about the same thing. Juka Prazina

14 asked me to join, and I refused. After that, Zeljko told me to join so

15 that I would be able to get out.

16 Q. All right. That's what I'm talking about. What happened then?

17 Tell us about this conversation with Zeljko. Is this Mr. Bosnjak again,

18 Zeljko Bosnjak?

19 A. Yes, that's him.

20 Q. All right. Tell the Chamber that conversation.

21 A. Well, there were various conversations I had with Zeljko regarding

22 my release because I was working for him, and he insisted that I cross

23 myself, that I would be released. He said, "Convert. I'll bring a

24 priest, and we'll release you. You can go to Makarska." I didn't want to

25 do that, because if I converted, perhaps I would be forced to put on an

Page 4412

1 HVO uniform. I didn't do that eventually, but it had been offered.

2 Q. Well, you said a moment ago -- and it may be apparent to most

3 people in the courtroom, but just so the record is clear. You said he

4 insisted that you cross yourself. What did you understand that to mean?

5 A. Well, to change my faith, to change my name or to become a

6 Croatian, to become a Jozo in order to be free, to convert. Whether that

7 was something he meant seriously, I cannot know, but that's what he said.

8 Q. When you said just now Jozo, to become a Jozo, what does that

9 mean?

10 A. That means a change of name. He would bring a priest with a list

11 for baptism and get me to change my name. That's what he said.

12 Q. All right. So just -- again, just to be clear, you're not saying

13 that he actually -- or are you -- that he actually brought a priest there

14 to you when you were being held or working at his house, or he was just

15 saying that's what he would do if you would agree to it?

16 A. When he insisted to release me, he had already released one man

17 and another man. And I was working for him, and he wanted to get me

18 released, too. And since I refused to change my name, I don't remember

19 that he actually brought a priest. He didn't.

20 Q. All right. Now we're moving on, Witness CC. So not about those

21 conversations, but can you tell the Chamber, please, during the time that

22 you were being held at the tobacco station, did you ever see this person

23 that you've previously identified in your testimony as Tuta?

24 A. Yes, I did see him, particularly when I was at the canal, when we

25 were working at the canal. I saw him also outside the tobacco station.

Page 4413

1 Q. All right. Before we go to the canal, can you just tell the

2 Chamber approximately how many times you saw -- you believe you saw Tuta

3 around the tobacco station?

4 A. Well, I can't say exactly, more than once anyway. It may have

5 been two or three times. I didn't, of course, make notes every time I saw

6 someone. But I did look.

7 Q. All right. Let's go forward. You said then you became involved

8 in digging something called a canal. Can you tell the Chamber about that,

9 and perhaps describe a bit more what this was and the work you were

10 doing.

11 A. Well, we had to dig what we call a canal, water supply canal, an

12 irrigation canal. And we started digging in the direction of the hill.

13 Q. Were you ever told to what location this canal was being dug?

14 A. Towards Tuta's house. I know because guards were also telling us

15 that Tuta has no water, that water has to be supplied to him. And that

16 canal was going in the direction of Tuta's house.

17 Q. Could you see a location that was known to you or identified to

18 you as Tuta's house when you were working on the canal?

19 A. Yes, I could see it.

20 Q. Approximately how far was it from the point -- the location where

21 you were working on the canal?

22 A. Perhaps 300 to 500 metres from the tip of the canal, from Tuta's

23 house. But I saw when we were coming by bus, we passed even more closely

24 to Tuta's house. I could see it.

25 Q. Well, will you tell the Chamber a bit more. How did you know or

Page 4414

1 come to know that that was Tuta's house?

2 A. Well, the guards told us, and Tuta himself would come to the canal

3 to see how the works are progressing.

4 Q. Do you recall approximately how many times Tuta himself came to

5 the canal?

6 A. I can't remember how many times he personally came. It wasn't the

7 place or the time to make a record, but he did come several times.

8 Q. Now, were you working on this canal by yourself, or were there

9 other prisoners with you? And if I can move us hopefully forward a bit,

10 did you come to know there were prisoners that were also working there

11 from a place called the Dobrkovici school?

12 A. Well, when we just started working, we didn't know that they were

13 from the Dobrkovici school. We found out later that there were prisoners

14 in the school of Dobrkovici, and we drove by that school, we stopped by

15 that school, and -- for other prisoners to get in, and then we would

16 continue to the canal. So there were other prisoners. There were us,

17 from the tobacco station, plus another six people from the Dobrkovici

18 school, who had been brought from Heliodrom to help out.

19 Q. Did you hear around that time that a prisoner at the Dobrkovici

20 school had been killed, or did someone tell you that?

21 A. I did. I heard about it even before. I could see, while we were

22 driving to work, a man being carried out. Ivan came to the police station

23 and he wanted to beat us, and since he recognised us as people who were

24 working for him, he said, "I wouldn't beat you." And on that occasion, he

25 said, "We've just killed a man in Dobrkovici."

Page 4415












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4416

1 Q. When you say, "Ivan, Ivan," who are you talking about?

2 A. Hrkac, Ivan Hrkac, nicknamed Cikota.

3 Q. Did Cikota say anything more to you or to identify who it was who

4 allegedly, quote, they had just killed at Dobrkovici?

5 A. We found out that the gentleman's name was Krilic when we got in

6 touch with those other people who were working together with us at the

7 canal, and then we found out that the executed man's name was Krilic.

8 Q. I'm go to ask the usher, please, to show you Exhibit P33.2 through

9 .5, so .2, .3, .4, .5.

10 A. I recognise the school at Dobrkovici.

11 Q. Can you point the school out to us, please?

12 A. [Indicates]

13 Q. Witness, on this occasion, since I'm not sure there has been quite

14 as much evidence on this matter yet, I'm going to ask you to mark this

15 photograph. So if you can be provided a marker, the location that you

16 just pointed at a moment ago, can you identify, can you mark on that a

17 number 1?

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. All right. Very well. Will you look, please, then, at 33.3? And

20 can you identify for us any location in that photograph?

21 A. I can point the school at Dobrkovici.

22 MR. SCOTT: In the interests of time, Mr. President, I'm just

23 going to identify for the record the witness has identified a large

24 building with a red roof immediately to the left of centre of the

25 photograph.

Page 4417

1 Q. Can you please look at Exhibit 33.4? Do you recognise that?

2 A. That's the Dobrkovici school.

3 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, there is only one prominent building in

4 that photograph.

5 Q. And can you please look at Exhibit 33.5? And again, will you

6 identify that, please?

7 A. That is that same school in Dobrkovici. I know everything by the

8 entrance, because we stopped there many times while people got on the bus.

9 Q. Where would the bus typically stop to pick up prisoners from the

10 Dobrkovici school?

11 A. Right next to the fence, as close as possible to the fence, so

12 that people could get off as quickly as possible.

13 Q. All right. I'm not sure it's a major point but, Witness, could

14 you mark that location with perhaps the number 2?

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Thank you very much. I think only one other question about the

17 school, just so the record is clear, the photographs that you've looked at

18 in the last few minutes, is that what the school looked like in the summer

19 of 1993? I mean the condition of the building, the paint, et cetera.

20 A. On the outside, yes. Maybe the roof has been changed since.

21 There are new tiles and new varnish. But the frame is the same and the

22 entrance is the same, as I could be looking at it right now.

23 Q. All right. Witness CC, moving forward, directing your attention

24 to the early part of August 1993, did you have some meeting or

25 communication with a man named Andabak?

Page 4418

1 A. Yes. I had communication. Once when he was taking us - I don't

2 know exactly what the name of the mountain was, I'm not familiar with that

3 area - on one occasion, when he took us to put up a cross.

4 Q. All right. Well, before you get to that --

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter missed the last part of the

6 answer. Would the witness please repeat?


8 Q. Did you hear -- I'm sorry, Witness, did you hear the

9 interpretation? They asked you to repeat the last part of your prior

10 question about being taken to put up a cross.

11 A. Once he came to the tobacco station, picked up several of us and

12 took us to put up this cross. It was on a mountain. It was a huge

13 cross. We needed to dig a hole, put up that cross, and pour concrete over

14 it. It was personally Andabak who was in charge of this job. And the

15 second time I saw Mr. Andabak when he came to the tobacco station. I was

16 beaten on that occasion. And I saw Andabak then as well.

17 Q. All right. Well, on that occasion - I think that's the one I want

18 to ask you about now - how did Andabak, if he did, identify himself? Did

19 he describe himself with any rank?

20 A. Yes. He introduced himself, he said, "I am Ivan Andabak, colonel

21 of the Poskok Battalion, with Tuta. And Tuta's deputy." He used those

22 words. He said, "I am Tuta's deputy."

23 Q. How was Mr. Andabak dressed at that time, at the time you said he

24 came to you at the tobacco station?

25 A. I think he was wearing a uniform.

Page 4419

1 Q. If the -- all right. Well, if the --

2 MR. SCOTT: Just trying to decide whether to take the time,

3 Mr. President.

4 Q. If the usher could please show you what's been marked as Exhibits

5 P39.1, .2 and .3? Sorry --

6 THE REGISTRAR: I have 2 and 3. I have misplaced 1.

7 MR. SCOTT: That's all right. We will go with 2 and 3.

8 A. Ivan Andabak.

9 Q. All right. Hold on one minute, Witness, let me catch up with

10 you. So the record is clear --

11 THE INTERPRETER: There is no microphone.

12 MR. SCOTT: My apology. So the record is clear -- I can't see the

13 exhibit number on that photograph, but Mr. Usher, can you help us with

14 which photograph is that? The Exhibit number? So we are looking at

15 39.2. All right.

16 Q. Sir, and you told us that's the man what you came to know as Ivan

17 Andabak?

18 A. That's how he introduced himself.

19 Q. All right. And I suppose, so the record is clear, there are two

20 men in the photograph. Which one are you identifying as Andabak?

21 A. [Indicates]

22 MR. SCOTT: Can the witness be shown 39 -- I think you have them

23 all now. Why don't we go back to 39.1.

24 Q. Can you identify the person in the camouflage uniform, please.

25 A. Ivan Andabak.

Page 4420

1 MR. SCOTT: All right. Thank you, Mr. Usher. That's fine. I'm

2 not going to pursue the third photograph.

3 Q. Now, you said -- I think you said, if I heard you correctly, and

4 if I'm wrong, please say so -- that it was around this time when you were

5 seen by Andabak that you were beaten. Is that right?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Tell us what happened, please.

8 A. One day Ivan came together with another two men. I don't know who

9 they were. I knew one nicknamed Bim. I knew him from when I was working

10 someplace, and I didn't know the other one at all. All I know is they

11 were accompanying him. The other one was Mario. The guard took us out

12 from the room where we were sleeping and took me to see them. There was a

13 reception booth at the entrance where we were locked in. They ordered me

14 to sit on the table. And to one side of me, there was Bim, and to the

15 other side, there was Mario.

16 Q. And what happened after that?

17 A. And then Ivan introduced himself. That's what he did before

18 anything else, as I already mentioned. And then he started to question

19 me. His first question, I remember well, was, "Do you know about the

20 tunnel leading from Vranica underground to the left bank of East Mostar?"

21 Meaning that there was a tunnel below Vranica leading to the left bank to

22 East Mostar. I said I didn't know. If I had known, I wouldn't be there.

23 And then the beating started.

24 Q. Let me stop you there for a moment, because I think we'll have to

25 finish this story after lunch.

Page 4421

1 MR. SCOTT: But just one question, Mr. President, if I can be

2 allowed.

3 Q. You said that Andabak identified himself, and I think you said

4 something to the effect "as he always did." Did he always identify

5 himself to you in the same way? And if so, again, can you tell the

6 Chamber the words that he used to describe himself.

7 A. He always introduced himself as a colonel. I think he was proud

8 of that, and he was proud of being a deputy of Mladen Naletilic, Tuta.

9 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, we can stop there, please.

10 JUDGE LIU: Would you please inform this Trial Chamber how long

11 you are going to take after the lunch break, because we hoped we could

12 finish this witness today.

13 MR. SCOTT: I hope so as well. Your Honour, it had been my goal,

14 to be honest, to finish him before lunch. But I think it will be

15 10 minutes after the lunch break.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. We will resume at 3.00 this

17 afternoon.

18 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.








Page 4422

1 --- On resuming at 3.18 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm very sorry about the delay for about 15

3 minutes. We might sit a little bit longer than we scheduled.

4 Yes, Mr. Scott.


6 Q. Witness CC, we left off before lunch, you had been in an

7 interrogation involving Andabak, and I think, as you described it, two of

8 his -- well, two of the soldiers were with him, one on each side of you,

9 and sitting in front of -- you sitting in front of Andabak. And you said

10 that one of the questions, one of the items that Andabak asked you about

11 was some alleged tunnel out of the Vranica building. I think we've talked

12 about that enough, but my question to you, then, is: Was there anything

13 else that you were questioned about other than the tunnel?

14 A. After a brief beating, the second round of questioning started

15 with where was safe at the Vranica. I had no idea that there was some

16 safe in the Vranica building or some money, and again, when I said that I

17 did not know anything about it, the beating resumed. And then the

18 question that followed were the ones that I could not even understand, and

19 then I concluded that these were just a pretext for further beating,

20 nothing else.

21 Q. And briefly, sir, how were you actually beaten? What did they do

22 to you?

23 A. There were kicks, there were punches, there were -- there was also

24 handle of a pistol that they called a Zagja [phoen]. I don't know why

25 they called it that. Then eventually they started trampling on top of

Page 4423

1 me. After I was sent back to the cell, and there were traces of boots,

2 there were imprints of boots all over me and they -- the prisoners made

3 jokes, because they didn't have footwear, they said if they could borrow

4 some of the boots that they saw the marks of on me.

5 Q. Of the people who were in the room at this time, who actually beat

6 you?

7 A. I was beaten by the person nicknamed Bim. I know that he lived

8 across the street from the MUP in Siroki Brijeg. I saw him. And Mario,

9 nicknamed Robija, the two of them beat me, and Ivan Andabak gave orders.

10 Q. That was my question to you: Did Mr. Andabak or Colonel Andabak,

11 did he physically touch you or was he just watching all this happen?

12 A. He only issued orders. He only watched and he did not touch me.

13 Q. Did he do anything to intervene or to stop the soldiers, the other

14 two, from beating you?

15 A. How was he going to do that when he said, "Hit him, fuck his

16 balija mother"? How do you mean did he stop them?

17 Q. Now, let me direct your attention to another separate item. Were

18 you ever taken to engage in looting or taking property out of houses or

19 flats?

20 A. Yes, I was taken to Mostar to do that.

21 Q. And who took you, and what did you do?

22 A. The first time we went there, we looted for the soldiers who were

23 in Siroki Brijeg, and Robo Medic was the one who drove us. They were

24 looting furniture and things like that.

25 Q. Did this Robo Medic have any role in the Convicts Battalion as far

Page 4424












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4425

1 as you know? Was he an officer? Did he have some position?

2 A. Well, I think that he had some rank. He was a commander of

3 recruits who were trained there at Siroki Brijeg.

4 Q. Can you tell us approximately how many times were you taken to

5 Mostar to engage in looting in this way?

6 A. I cannot say exactly. I cannot recall exactly, but more than

7 twice definitely. Two, three times, because I was also taken to loot when

8 that barracks in Mostar -- when that house was converted to the barracks,

9 then they were going to put in furniture. And we worked there. This is

10 where the recruits were training, and we had to bring that looted stuff

11 from Mostar in order to appoint those premises.

12 Q. Do you know what premises or what properties you looted, or how

13 those properties were selected?

14 A. Whatever was of good quality, sofas and TV sets, radio sets,

15 refrigerators, stoves, rugs, if they were in good shape, good condition.

16 They would fill the truck, so there were truckloads of stuff being hauled

17 away.

18 Q. In terms of the flats or houses which were looted, can you tell

19 the Chamber whether or not they were selected in any way on the basis of

20 national group or ethnicity, that is whether the people or former owners

21 or current owners or occupants were Croats, Serbs, or Muslim, or if it was

22 just simply, if I can say, opportunistic?

23 A. No, those was were Muslim apartments and houses, the ones who had

24 been expelled from their homes. Because we also saw some books in there,

25 like the Koran or Musaf [phoen], so they had to have been Muslim homes.

Page 4426

1 So I conclude that they were Muslim because they were abandoned, and

2 Croats did not abandon houses in the western section of Mostar.

3 Q. All right. Thank you.

4 Witness, at some point, were you taken from the tobacco station to

5 the Heliodrom where you were held at the Heliodrom for some time?

6 A. That was at the end of my stay at Siroki Brijeg. After that, I no

7 longer went back to Siroki Brijeg.

8 Q. Did you ever see a man named - may have been known to you, maybe

9 not - as Vinko Martinovic or Stela at the Heliodrom?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MR. SCOTT: My apology.

12 Q. Did you ever see a man perhaps known to you as either Stela or

13 Vinko Martinovic at the Heliodrom?

14 A. During the looting, no.

15 Q. At any time.

16 A. I never knew who Stela was. I had never seen him. But at one

17 point at the Heliodrom, the prisoners pointed him out to me. And they

18 said that is Stela. That is how I saw him for the first time.

19 Q. Final topic, Witness CC: During the time that you were being held

20 at various places that you've told us about today, did you ever see any

21 soldiers or components of the army of the Republic of Croatia, that is,

22 the HV?

23 A. Yes, I did see them at Heliodrom and at Dretelj.

24 Q. Can you describe or give us as much information as you recall

25 about the HV personnel that you saw at the Heliodrom. Do you remember a

Page 4427

1 name and just briefly what you saw?

2 A. I know that they were at the Heliodrom, and there was a man of

3 ours from -- who was brought from Siroki Brijeg, and he worked for the

4 Croatian army. Apparently, they had beat him. And that night, he came

5 back and sort of grabbed on to me, asking for some kind of support. He

6 was all beaten up. He told me that they were Croatian army. And also,

7 once when we were cleaning around the tarmac, we saw the Croatian army

8 soldiers, we saw the patches.

9 Q. Well, that was my next question to you: How did you come to know,

10 or what do you base your testimony on, that these were HV soldiers or HV

11 units?

12 A. Based on the -- based on the patches. And also where they slept,

13 above the door-frame, there was a large sign saying, "Croatian army."

14 Q. All right. And you don't remember any of the names of these

15 Croatian units this afternoon?

16 A. People who said -- spent more time at Heliodrom said that they

17 were the Tigers, the Dragons, the Tigers. They said that all these units

18 were there at the Heliodrom.

19 Q. And is it correct, sir, that you were finally released from

20 custody on the 19th of March, 1994, after being held for a total of 314

21 days?

22 A. That is correct.

23 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Witness CC.

24 Mr. President, I have no further questions.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

Page 4428

1 Any cross-examination? Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Good afternoon, witness.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. Let me introduce myself, I'm Kresimir Krsnik. I am the attorney

7 for the accused Mladen Naletilic. I will ask you some questions. Please

8 follow my questions carefully and I will try to frame them in such a way

9 that you are able to answer very briefly and succinctly.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I would also like to ask that the

11 ELMO be lowered. And, Your Honours, can we go immediately into the

12 private session? Because I would like to ask several questions that need

13 to be asked in the private session.

14 JUDGE LIU: Go to the private session.

15 [Private session]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4429

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [Open session]

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Can you tell me, do you remember the statements that you gave

23 earlier, before your evidence today?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. Do you remember how many statements you gave?

Page 4430

1 A. No. I never counted them.

2 Q. Do you recall the statement you gave on -- that is to AID, the

3 agency of -- Agency for Investigation and Documentation in Mostar?

4 A. I do, for the most part, yes, I do remember, and if we were to go

5 in order, I think that I would be able to retell you everything that

6 happened.

7 Q. And everything that you said to the AID people and the

8 investigators of this Tribunal is the truth as you could recall it?

9 A. Whatever I could recall, I said in a truthful way.

10 Q. Do you recall that in the first statement, of 8 April 1997 - that

11 was the statement to the AID - you said that you were at the Vranica

12 building and not in the logistics building?

13 A. No. That's not how I said it. I know that I was in the logistics

14 building and that I crossed the roof to go into the Vranica building. If

15 they wrote it differently, that's their matter.

16 Q. But it is possible that somebody also wrote down something that

17 you did not say?

18 A. I wouldn't be able to answer that question.

19 Q. Your statement to the AID starts as follows: "When the HVO

20 launched its attack on 9 May, 1993, I was at the Vranica building, the

21 building housing the command of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

22 A. No, unless they considered the entire complex the Vranica

23 building, but I was in the logistics building.

24 Q. Is it true that you crawled across the roof from the logistics

25 building to the Vranica building?

Page 4431

1 A. Yes. We climbed up the logistics building. We -- and then we

2 came out on to the roof, and we crawled over to the Vranica building.

3 Q. Is it true that you entered the building through a hole made by a

4 shell?

5 A. Yes, because otherwise we would not have been able to enter it.

6 There is some kind of a housing, and we wouldn't have been able to go in.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we go into the

8 private session for a second.

9 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session.

10 [Private session]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4432

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [Open session]

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

19 Q. In the statement that you gave to both the AID and the statement

20 you gave to the investigator on the 3rd of March, 1998, you -- in both

21 statements you state the same: "We went on foot from the building to the

22 school of mechanical engineering. In front of the faculty of mechanical

23 engineering, I saw Tuta," and so on and so forth. And the same you stated

24 to the investigators of the Tribunal.

25 A. But that was not on the 8th. That was on the 10th. And what I

Page 4433












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Page 4434

1 stated then, it was the truth, and I can state it again. I'm sorry. You

2 said 8 March 1998.

3 Q. Sir, will you please listen very carefully. You gave your

4 statement in the -- you gave a statement in March, and it was not in '93,

5 but in '98. I was just referring to that.

6 A. On the 8th of March, I could not have given the statement because

7 I was released on the 19th of March.

8 Q. Witness, will you please focus and listen very carefully to my

9 questions, please. I said 1998. So please follow the question very

10 carefully. Thank you.

11 However, in the statement that you gave to the AID and the

12 statement that you gave to the investigator, you state emphatically that

13 you were taken from the Vranica building to the school of mechanical

14 engineering.

15 A. Yes, I was taken there. In fact, I don't know whether this was

16 the faculty of mechanical engineering school or some kind of a ministry.

17 I am not from Mostar, but I know I was taken there.

18 Q. In the statement you gave to the investigator, you say -- you

19 stated clearly, We were taken to the ministry at Bijeli Brijeg in Mostar.

20 Some people also refer to that place as the school of mechanical

21 engineering, so you know very well where you were taken.

22 A. Sir, I say to you again, I do not know Mostar. It could be that I

23 said Bijeli Brijeg. I know that if I were to go there now, I would be

24 able to tell you -- to show you the way, which way I was led. But I know

25 exactly where I was taken from to the place where I was taken. And from

Page 4435

1 that place, I was taken to Siroki Brijeg.

2 Q. So how did you know the names of these locations in your

3 statements that you gave to both the AID and to the investigators of this

4 Tribunal?

5 A. The names of these locations, I heard from other prisoners about

6 them. They refer to them. They named them. Some said one. Some named

7 one. Some named another place, but I personally did not know their names.

8 Q. So what you said to the investigators of this Tribunal and to the

9 AID is something that you heard from others in terms of the names of those

10 locations?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can I ask the usher, please, to place

13 this map of Mostar in front of the witness.

14 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, what is the point of this

15 cross-examination? We have had at least four witnesses who have described

16 the walk from the Vranica building to this particular place. We have even

17 seen it on video. So what is the point of getting all upset about whether

18 he knows the right name or whether he told -- shouldn't we move on to

19 what's important in this case? Unless you can tell me what the point of

20 all this is.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you for your comments, Your

22 Honour. Of course there is meaning to this, and I am prepared to tell you

23 what it is if the witness is led out of the courtroom.

24 JUDGE CLARK: Once it's relevant, go ahead. I didn't want to

25 interrupt you. But it isn't as if it could possibly be in dispute that a

Page 4436

1 number of prisoners walked for 10 to 20 minutes to a particular building,

2 in front of which there were a number of people, one of whom was your

3 client, and that certain incidents occurred. We have heard this from many

4 witnesses.

5 Now, I'm not going to disturb you if you say it's relevant, and I

6 don't want you to explain. I'll have to trust you on that.

7 JUDGE LIU: By the way, Mr. Krsnik, would you please tell us the

8 number about this map?

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] This is Exhibit P11.18.

10 Your Honour, Judge Clark, let me just remind you what the last

11 witness said where he was.

12 JUDGE CLARK: I thought that most of the witnesses described a

13 faculty building, whether it was mechanical engineering or the ministry.

14 You don't agree? Well, then I won't interrupt, then.

15 THE REGISTRAR: This exhibit number is D1/28.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, can you show this location on the map? Perhaps it will

18 refresh your memory with names of streets?

19 A. It was only then, I was then on that site for the only time. And

20 I'm not really from Mostar. I don't know.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you. Thank you,

22 usher.

23 Q. We heard your testimony today as to what happened in -- outside

24 the building. Do you know that in your statement given to AID, you gave

25 only one sentence about this and no more than that, namely that Tuta and

Page 4437

1 Misic had an argument or quarrelled, that is Tuta, Misic, Lasic and the

2 others, regarding the execution. However, Juka didn't allow it. But

3 that's the only thing you said. There was not a word more about it.

4 A. That's the way it happened. Juka and Lasic defended us, saying

5 that we should not be executed. And after that, we were taken to Siroki

6 Brijeg, and Tuta used these words: "Go take them to Siroki Brijeg. Who

7 said that balijas can't go to Listica? Go take them to Listica and

8 execute them." Those were the words he used. So we didn't spend a long

9 time outside the ministry.

10 Q. When you arrived outside the MUP building in Siroki Brijeg, do you

11 stand by your claim as given today in your examination-in-chief? Do you

12 know what you said in your previous statement?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. "Cane showed up, I don't know his first or last name. He was

15 chief of the MUP. At that time, I didn't know it. However, during the

16 time I spent in prison, he visited and it's from him that I heard that he

17 was the chief. In addition, Cane knew Spahic from before, and we learned

18 it from him."

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Today, you said something entirely different. You said he knew

21 Zekic and in addition Goran --

22 A. I knew that because Zekic was at the police headquarters at the

23 HVO up there.

24 Q. Witness, what is true, what you said today or what you said in

25 your statements?

Page 4438

1 A. It's all the truth. The Prosecutor didn't ask me about Spahic.

2 Perhaps he didn't know to ask me but it's true that he knew both Goran and

3 Spahic.

4 Q. Witness, tell me how many times Romeo Blazevic came to your cell?

5 A. As far as I know, he came once.

6 Q. And never again?

7 A. As far as I know, he didn't.

8 Q. How many times Cikota came?

9 A. I didn't count. He came a lot of times. I really didn't count.

10 Cikota came often to the cells and to the tobacco station, but I didn't

11 count his visits.

12 Q. In your statement, you mention only one incident, namely in the

13 canteen of the MUP, and nothing else.

14 A. I wouldn't agree with that. Perhaps I mentioned something but I

15 don't believe I said that. He did come.

16 Q. Witness, did you have enough food and water, both in prison and

17 while you were working at the pool?

18 A. I know I got out weighing 40 kilos. I know how much food and

19 water I had. No, there wasn't. At no time were we really washed. We

20 were never allowed to have a bath.

21 Q. In your statement, or rather statements, that you gave and which I

22 can present to you, if you like, you said, "I remember that we got enough

23 food and water."

24 A. I don't remember that statement. You can let me see it, but I

25 really don't remember. As far as I know, I never said we had enough food

Page 4439

1 and water. Especially water, because in -- during the entire time we

2 spent there, we were never allowed to have a bath, to wash ourselves.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] With the usher's assistance, I would

4 like to show this witness his own statement.

5 Q. That's the statement you gave to the investigators of this

6 Tribunal. Have you read it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you say that?

9 A. Yes, I did, but what I was referring to was a private person who

10 brought us food, and we know exactly who paid for it and who brought it to

11 us. It was the housekeeper in Siroki Brijeg, a man named Tomo.

12 Q. Did you also get enough cigarettes?

13 A. Cigarettes? Yes, I smoked. I smoked leaves, if I could gather

14 some. If you did work for private persons, you got rewarded sometimes,

15 but there was nothing regular. Nothing was regular there.

16 Q. You said today that you were guarded by drivers. Do you stand by

17 that?

18 A. Yes, drivers wearing uniforms, armed, yes, they did.

19 Q. In your statements, you said that you were guarded by 25 young

20 soldiers who had been trained by Robo Medic.

21 A. At the tobacco station, yes, we were guarded by them. I am not

22 saying there were 25, but we were guarded by such recruits, and when we

23 were building the barracks, they guarded us. We were also guarded by home

24 guards. At least that's what they called themselves.

25 Q. Witness, you expressly said, "I used to see him on Siroki Brijeg.

Page 4440

1 He trained about -- he trained about 25 young recruits, who later guarded

2 us around the swimming pool -- at the swimming pool."

3 A. I certainly gave no such statement, because the barracks were

4 built after the swimming pool.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] With the usher's assistance, I would

6 like to show this statement to the witness.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Can the counsel be advised to give at least

8 references of the passages that are being read and quoted so that the

9 interpreters can follow. Thank you.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik. Did you hear what the interpreters

11 said? The interpreter said that could the interpreters be provided the

12 reference of the passages that are being read and quoted so that the

13 interpreters can follow your questions.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] This is a statement dated 8th of

15 April, 1997 given to the Agency for Investigations and Documentation, page

16 3.

17 Q. Did you read this?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you say that?

20 A. Perhaps I said something like that, but not this. Of course, I

21 said I saw Robo Medic, but I really can't remember saying that he guarded

22 us around the swimming pool.

23 Q. Will you tell me, then, do you stand by your statement that around

24 the canal which you dug for the purposes of irrigation --

25 A. Water supply.

Page 4441

1 Q. Water supply, from that point, you can see Mr. Naletilic's house.

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Exhibit --

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't get the number.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Exhibit 26.2, Prosecutor's Exhibit.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [In English] 26.2.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness, kindly look at this aerial photograph. Do you see the

9 swimming pool?

10 You can take the photograph and look at it more closely. Perhaps

11 the image on the screen isn't very good.

12 A. I said I could see Tuta's house from the canal, not from the pool.

13 Q. I'm asking you now, do you see the swimming pool? I know exactly

14 what I'm asking.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. Now, let us move towards this canal. Move the pointer, please, to

17 this canal, going from the swimming pool.

18 A. I think you could have taken a better picture.

19 Q. We'll have to do with what we've got.

20 A. This is sheer camouflage.

21 Q. Do you see your canal on this picture?

22 A. Around here, but I can't be sure because the picture is really

23 terrible. But I think it's here.

24 Q. Will you show it on the ELMO, please.

25 A. Around here.

Page 4442












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4443

1 Q. Will you make a dot on this picture and mark it with number 1.

2 A. I'm really not sure, because of the quality of the picture.

3 Q. And can you trace the path of this canal?

4 A. I can't.

5 Q. If you can't, just put this number 1 on the picture.

6 A. I don't really understand this picture.

7 Q. No problem. Just put the number 1.

8 A. Make a better picture. I know this house very well. I saw it

9 many times from the bus, and what you are showing me here --

10 Q. You saw Tuta's house from the bus?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. Tell me, please, you mentioned today that Eldar

13 Omerika was together with you at the pool and helping you out with the

14 house?

15 A. No, it wasn't Eldar that I mentioned. Eldar was killed at the

16 logistics building. I mentioned Armin.

17 Q. We can look at the transcript. We can rewind the transcript. You

18 said Eldar Omerika.

19 A. I don't remember.

20 Q. I want to ask you: Eldar Omerika, was this man with you or wasn't

21 he?

22 A. You mean Armin Omerika.

23 Q. Armin.

24 If you can just give me a second, please. So it was Armin Omerika

25 who was with you?

Page 4444

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When you mentioned Omerika, you mean Armin?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And not Eldar?

5 A. Regrettably, not Eldar. Eldar got killed in the logistics

6 building on the first day of the conflict.

7 Q. Did HOS attack the Vranica building?

8 A. I don't know if it was HOS, but there were individuals in black

9 uniforms.

10 Q. I will show you again your statement in which you said, when you

11 were crawling up to the window on the first floor --

12 A. I remember.

13 Q. "I saw HVO soldiers shooting from the barracks. They were in HOS

14 uniforms, black shirts, black trousers, HOS patches on their sleeves.

15 Some had helmets on their heads. Some had stockings. Some had nothing at

16 all."

17 Do you want to read this?

18 A. There is no need to.

19 Q. Did you say this?

20 A. Perhaps not exactly like that. Perhaps I didn't mean that. But

21 something to that effect. Civilian police also fired from the prison --

22 or from the shelter.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, it was probably from

24 the shelter, from shelter.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

Page 4445

1 Q. Do you remember saying today that Mr. Jahic was forced to sign

2 some sort of statement?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You said it was before you went to Ljubuski?

5 A. Exactly on the day when we started for Ljubuski.

6 Q. You say in your statement -- you say expressly that it was the HVO

7 civilian police who came to the prison when you had already returned from

8 Ljubuski - I won't read this from the beginning - and it was then that

9 Hamdija Jahic had to sign a paper stating that the behaviour of the guards

10 in the prison was correct and that detainees were not mistreated. Today,

11 you spoke of the Geneva Convention. Do you want to read this?

12 A. What I said today is true. Whether anyone added something to my

13 statement, I don't know, and I don't care, but I stand by what I said

14 today. On the day that we left for Ljubuski, yes, the civilian police

15 came, they took away Hamdija, and Hamdija had to sign this. But the

16 civilian police did not drive us away. It was soldiers who drove us to

17 Ljubuski.

18 Q. You said a moment ago it's possible that the AID added something

19 to your statement.

20 A. I don't know. I don't know. I can't say exactly what happened on

21 each day out of 314 days. You should know better.

22 Q. I'm sorry, Witness, but you said a moment ago yourself, "I don't

23 know if AID added something."

24 A. I can't remember every word that I stated seven or eight years

25 ago. Please.

Page 4446

1 JUDGE LIU: Witness, we understand that you're eager to give your

2 testimony, but you have also to remember that you're under the protective

3 measures. So please wait until the Defence counsel finished his

4 question. Thank you.

5 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, while we are -- while you've intervened

6 I'm going to raise the question, object to the procedure. We are back to

7 the same problem we've had before. Mr. Krsnik has now gone on for some

8 time, and I have not intervened, well, to give him some latitude, but put

9 the document -- the document should be put in front of the witness. There

10 has been extensive examination on these documents, and once again they

11 have not been put in front of the witness. Now, we've gone over this

12 again and again and again. Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: I quite agree with you.

14 And Mr. Krsnik, we have already mentioned that. If you want to

15 use a document, better put this document, especially the previous

16 statement, to this witness. We should be fair to this witness.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour. That's

18 exactly what I'm doing. What I was going to say, I want to make my

19 cross-examination brief. There are certain statements that can be taken

20 out of context, if you followed, and of course you followed, my

21 cross-examination. There is one statement made to the investigators, one

22 statement made to the agency, one completely different statement today.

23 The whole text does not have to be reread. What is at issue are

24 particular, separate statements, and it is especially relevant when we

25 have other witnesses speaking to the same circumstances. We are entitled

Page 4447

1 to determine whether their testimony -- whether the information they

2 provide differs.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well --

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Whether there are discrepancies.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, I understand your reasoning, but to be fair to

6 this witness, you have to put that statement to the witness.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour. While my

8 colleague is looking for this particular passage -- Mr. Usher, if you

9 would be so kind?

10 Q. Please look at the section which is underlined.

11 MR. SCOTT: Could we have a reference, Your Honour, so we can

12 follow?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, Mr. Krsnik? Could you give us some

14 guidance? Page 5, given -- in the statement given to the investigators,

15 that's to say, page 5 in the B/C/S version.

16 Q. Well?

17 A. This, sir, is precisely what I've referred to. Several days

18 later, that is, after we left Siroki Brijeg.

19 Q. Did you ever see the person you referred to as Andabak on

20 television?

21 A. On television? I don't remember. Maybe, maybe not. Why would I

22 have to see him on television?

23 Q. Because you stated that you had seen him on television.

24 A. I remember saying that.

25 Q. So it wasn't really a problem recognising him?

Page 4448

1 A. It will never be a problem to recognise him. I remember him so

2 well that I will never have a problem recognising him. That's what I

3 said.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I would now like Exhibit 26.9 to be

5 shown.

6 Q. Kindly show us where you slept, or where you were accommodated on

7 this photograph.

8 A. The tobacco station.

9 Q. Use the pointer, please, if you could be so kind as to show us

10 where you slept.

11 A. These buildings are the same.

12 [Indicates]

13 Q. So, we can identify this as the building with the grey roof behind

14 the building with the red roof, third building from the pool. Is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, would you please tell me who guarded you and who

18 did this building belong to?

19 A. I can tell you who guarded us; but who the building belonged to, I

20 don't know. All they said was tobacco station. How would I know who

21 owned the building? The place where we slept also accommodated the Poskok

22 Battalion, and we were guarded by HVO guards. That would be all.

23 Q. Do you know what is the connection between Poskok Battalion with

24 the Convicts Battalion?

25 A. I have no clue. Nobody told us anything. How would I know if

Page 4449

1 there is any connection or what it is? But it must be the same thing.

2 These people bragged of being members of the Convicts Battalion, and at

3 that place, it was written Poskok Battalion. Maybe it's not the same, but

4 to me it's the same.

5 Q. One final question: Would you be able to point for us on the map

6 the way you went to loot, who went with you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You could show it on the map?

9 A. No, I couldn't. I already told you I don't know Mostar. I don't

10 know the place at all. I only know the area where I live and nothing

11 else. But I can tell you the names of people who went with us, who

12 accompanied me. Maybe not all the names.

13 Q. So who were the soldiers who were -- accompanied you to that

14 looting expedition? You said Robo Medic. Maybe someone else?

15 A. Maybe I could remember some other people. I remember Robo the

16 best because he was around the most.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My colleagues pointed out that I

18 missed something.

19 Q. You said that Tuta was referred to by some as "General" and by

20 some others as "Boss" or "Chief". Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. He was referred to everywhere, or was it at the pool, in front of

23 the ministry? Can you be specific.

24 A. Today, I said when Zeljko took me to Tuta, he said, "General."

25 And when I worked, they referred to him both "General" and "Boss." But I

Page 4450

1 remember very well at the pool side when he took me there personally, that

2 is what was said.

3 Q. You said -- do you know that you never said anywhere except today

4 that Andabak said, "Hit the balija"?

5 A. Yes, you just reminded me today. In fact, you sort of provoke me

6 into remembering certain things.

7 Q. Can you tell me, do you know that you never said that anybody

8 referred to you as a mujahedin except today?

9 A. I may have omitted it but I know very well that that is what

10 Zeljko said at that time. I think that Mr. Naletilic probably remembers

11 that.

12 Q. And do you know what you stated to both the investigators and to

13 the AID?

14 A. Yes, for the most part, yes.

15 Q. Did you tell them about the mujahedin?

16 A. Maybe yes, maybe no. I have been trying to forget, sir. It's

17 been eight, nine years, I wish to somehow get it out of me, to -- but some

18 things come back, some things I may omit. All these are details. But the

19 things that happened did happen this way, and that's the whole truth.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. I have no further

21 questions.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

23 Mr. Seric, any cross-examination?

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no reason to

25 cross-examine this witness.

Page 4451

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr. Scott?

2 MR. SCOTT: I think I've going to have about two questions, Your

3 Honour. If I could just have a minute, though, please? Excuse me, Your

4 Honour, maybe Mr. Poriouvaev can help me.

5 [Prosecution counsel confer]

6 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Mr. President, I've now found the reference

7 in the English version, but now I have to find it -- well if I can have

8 the usher's assistance.

9 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:

10 Q. Witness CC, if you can find the statement that Mr. Krsnik was just

11 asking you about -- I can't help you very much, I'm afraid, with the B/C/S

12 version, but if you can find page 6, and it's the part where you -- the

13 statement about your conversation with Mr. Zeljko Bosnjak about his

14 introducing you to Tuta, if you can find that. It may -- in the English

15 version, it's at the top of page 7. It may be either at the bottom of

16 page 6 of the B/C/S version or somewhere around there.

17 Just so I know we are looking for the same thing, are you looking

18 for the passage concerning when Zeljko Bosnjak introduced you to Tuta? Do

19 you know what we are looking for?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right.

22 A. "He called Tuta over and he said, 'This balija came from Cazin to

23 fight in Mostar.' Tuta listened and did not say anything, so I continued

24 working."

25 Q. So the record is clear, I've just referred you to your statement

Page 4452












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4453

1 to the OTP investigators dated the 3rd of March, 1998, and as recorded in

2 your statement, did you say that Zeljko Bosnjak called Tuta and told him,

3 "This balija came from Cazin to fight in Mostar"? Is that what it says

4 in your statement?

5 A. It is true.

6 Q. So if I understand your testimony, sir, the only difference

7 between what you said today and what you said in your statement of 1998 is

8 today you used the word "mujahedin," and in 1998, the word that was used

9 to refer to you was "balija," but do you remember that account? Do you

10 remember this happening?

11 A. It's the same situation.

12 Q. And the last item -- or the last questions I'll put to you --

13 MR. SCOTT: If the usher could assist by showing the witness

14 Exhibit 25.2, which is -- you can put that on the ELMO, please.

15 Q. Witness CC, can you look at that photograph, please, and, if you

16 can, can you see any place on that -- depicted on that photograph where

17 you were working on this canal, or a reservoir that was connected to the

18 canal, or a well? I think the "reservoir" is deceptive but I think that

19 may be a word you used. Can you point on that.

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you, please, to take a marker and mark

22 a number 1 on the location where you say you worked on the canal in

23 connection with Tuta's house.

24 A. Yes, this is where the reservoir was. And from there, water was

25 to be run over to Tuta's house.

Page 4454

1 Q. Two questions then to follow up on that. When you say

2 reservoir -- at least maybe a cultural or language matter, Witness CC, I

3 admit. When I hear the word "reservoir", I typically think of a surface

4 -- a pond or a lake. Was there a surface pond or lake there, or are you

5 talking about a reservoir being like a spring or a well?

6 A. No, it's not like a lake, no. It would be something similar to a

7 pool from where you would pump water and send it somewhere else. So that

8 is what we in Bosnia called a reservoir or cistern.

9 Q. All right. And my final question to you: From the vantage point

10 where you were working on the canal that you have just marked, at least in

11 part, as being depicted at location number 1, could you see Tuta's house

12 from that point?

13 A. I don't recall being able to. But from the end of the canal here,

14 from that vantage point, I could see it because we went digging from there

15 uphill. And when we approached this area by bus, there was a part of the

16 road where there was an opening. And so from there, I could see Tuta's

17 house.

18 Q. I guess I do have one final question, then: From what you've told

19 us then, can you show on this photograph -- can you see Tuta's house, or

20 what was described to you by the soldiers as Tuta's house?

21 A. Yes, I can.

22 Q. Please point that out on the map, and would you place a number 2

23 at that location.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Thank you, Witness CC.

Page 4455

1 MR. SCOTT: I have nothing further.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, any questions from the Judges? Judge

3 Clark.

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE CLARK: Witness, I wonder if you can help me with this: You

6 told us earlier on in your testimony that you really didn't know any of

7 the personalities involved with the conflict in Mostar on the 9th of May;

8 but during your period of detention, you came to know who they all were.

9 Now, I'm particularly interested in this man whose name is Juka

10 Prazina. You described how he called upon the civilians and the soldiers

11 in the Vranica building to surrender. And then you described how he was

12 with a number of other people who appeared to be leaders that day. Did

13 you ever see this Juka Prazina again after the 9th of May in any of the

14 detention centres where you were held?

15 A. I saw him but not at the camp. When we were going back from

16 Ljubuski, he boarded a bus and he asked who would volunteer into his

17 unit. The second time I saw him was at Zeljko Bosnjak, and the third time

18 I saw him was at Ivan Cikota's. Personally he offered me 20.000 German

19 marks to come and join him. And three prisoners went with him.

20 JUDGE CLARK: What was his position in the unit? You described

21 the unit. Do you know what the unit was and what was his position?

22 A. Well, he was the commander of that unit. That was an

23 anti-terrorist unit attached to the Convicts Battalion. That is how --

24 what they said. He was personally subordinate to Tuta, because he told

25 me, "I can bring you out, just come join me, and Tuta will agree to

Page 4456

1 that."

2 Now you're reminding me of this. I know that Juka was subordinate

3 to Tuta, and his unit was an ATG. It was probably a special-purpose

4 unit. I'm not a military analyst to know these things. But he was fairly

5 well known, he and his unit.

6 JUDGE CLARK: Do you remember the name of his unit, his ATG unit?

7 A. No, I only knew about that acronym, ATG or AT -- that is an

8 acronym.

9 JUDGE CLARK: Did you learn anything more about this man,

10 Mr. Prazina? Was he a local man from Mostar? Was he a career soldier?

11 A. I knew that he was from Sarajevo. He told us that he was from

12 Sarajevo. And he was a career soldier. In fact, he was like a mercenary

13 soldier. He worked for money. Because he came from Sarajevo to Siroki

14 Brijeg.

15 JUDGE CLARK: What I meant when I said a career soldier, I meant

16 somebody who joined as an officer and gone through cadet school and spent

17 years working his way up through the ranks as an officer.

18 A. I don't know if he was schooled, but he identified himself as a

19 general, and supposedly general of the ABiH. I really don't know whether

20 he went through officers' training.

21 But when he -- but when Rahimic was forced to carry around the

22 picture of General Halilovic, then -- of Sefer Halilovic, then he said,

23 "You see, I was supposed to be this. I should have been this."

24 JUDGE CLARK: So are you saying, Witness, that Juka Prazina was a

25 Bosniak and had been in the ABiH previously?

Page 4457

1 A. I don't know what he was. Whether he was Bosniak, I really don't

2 know. He probably was. He never said that he was a Bosniak. He said

3 that he had been -- I don't know. I only arrived in Mostar in 1993, and

4 joined the army, but I don't know whether he had been in the army before.

5 But if he saw himself as somebody who should have been a general, then I

6 assume that he had some officer training.

7 JUDGE CLARK: Was that a slip of the tongue when you said that he

8 had been in the ABiH? Did you mean the JNA?

9 A. No. I don't know whether he was with the JNA in 1992. That is

10 what I meant. I really don't know whether he was.

11 JUDGE CLARK: The reason I'm asking you these questions is that

12 this man, Mr. Prazina, appeared to be able to overrule Mr. Tuta in

13 relation to execution of your group. And I wanted you to clarify that, if

14 you can.

15 A. I personally think -- I overheard all this conversation. I really

16 believe that Juka did help us at that time because -- I did not say this

17 before, but one always remembers some -- when we were there in front of

18 this ministry, somebody fired a shot and a man was wounded in the leg, and

19 Juka stepped in and protected us.

20 JUDGE CLARK: And you also said that he protected Mr. Pobric, who

21 was being attacked by Tuta.

22 A. Yes. He did protect him.

23 JUDGE CLARK: Now, the next question that I wanted to ask you was

24 about your mention of the Geneva Convention. That was in relation to

25 Mr. Jahic. Who in particular asked him to sign a document stating that he

Page 4458

1 had been treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention?

2 A. That we all were treated, all the prisoners who were going from

3 Siroki Brijeg to Ljubuski, and that was the civilian police. They took

4 him there, and it was them who demanded that of him. I think that Cane

5 was present. But it was demanded by the civilian police.

6 JUDGE CLARK: Were you visited by any representative of either the

7 UN or the Red Cross while you were in Siroki Brijeg or the short time that

8 you were in Ljubuski?

9 A. Never, not -- not until we came to the Heliodrom. Whenever we

10 were -- throughout the time at the Siroki Brijeg, whenever they would

11 come, they would hide us so we had no contact with the Red Cross.

12 JUDGE CLARK: So what you're saying is that representatives from

13 the Red Cross came but that you were hidden from them?

14 A. Yes. I personally saw them, but we were never brought in front of

15 them. We were always hidden.

16 JUDGE CLARK: Do you have any idea why you were retransferred from

17 Ljubuski to Siroki Brijeg, your whole group? Do you have any idea why?

18 A. Eighteen of us were transferred back to Siroki Brijeg in order to

19 finish the work on the swimming pool. When we came -- when we were

20 brought back, they had extra work for us. I think that that was the

21 reason. I don't know of any other reason.

22 JUDGE CLARK: Did your group have particular building and

23 construction skills?

24 A. Well, yes, yes. [redacted]. There were carpenters.

25 There were painters. There were people who could do a lot of other things

Page 4459

1 in construction business. In fact, there was even a foreman. I think

2 (redacted), I think that he was -- had training in construction, so he

3 was a technician. So we were skilled.

4 JUDGE CLARK: They were all the questions I wanted to put to you,

5 so I thank you very much for your cooperation.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you, witness. Thank you for helping

7 us by giving your evidence. When the blind is pulled down, you may leave

8 now. We wish you all good luck.

9 While the witness is leaving --

10 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?

12 MR. SCOTT: I apologise for intervening in this way but before the

13 passage of the transcript too quickly, I think there needs to be one

14 redaction. There was a protected witness's name that was just mentioned,

15 if that could be just redacted. It's in approximately line 20 on page

16 101.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I didn't notice that.

18 Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can I tender my exhibits now?

20 JUDGE LIU: Sure, after Mr. Prosecutor. Yes. At this stage,

21 Mr. Prosecutor, do you have any documents to tender?

22 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, all of the exhibits themselves, that is

23 the underlying exhibits, had previously been admitted. However, I think

24 this witness marked three versions, and I'll ask the registrar to assist

25 me on that, but he marked a version of 25.2, he marked a version of 33.2

Page 4460

1 and 33.5. So only as to those additional marked versions, we offer those.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections?

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The -- we have no objections to the

4 photographs that were marked.

5 [Witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE LIU: Do you have any documents to tender at this stage?

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That is P11.18.

8 This would be the Defence exhibit D1/28. And then in order, P26.2, and

9 then the Prosecution Exhibit P26.9, in order. And that's all, Your

10 Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: Are there any marks by this witness for all those

12 documents? I understand all those documents have been admitted already.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you. All those documents are

15 admitted into the evidence. And Madam Registrar will give each a proper

16 number.

17 There's two things I would like to remind both parties at this

18 stage. Last Friday when we finished the testimony of that religious

19 official, the Prosecutor tendered a bundle of documents. And then,

20 Mr. Krsnik, you told us that you did not object to some of them, but you

21 are objecting to others. Since there are a lot of documents, this Trial

22 Chamber asked you to provide us a simple list stating which documents you

23 are objecting and which you are not, without the reason why you object to

24 those documents. We have not been furnished with this list at this

25 moment, and we are expecting your list on Thursday. Otherwise, all those

Page 4461

1 documents will be admitted into evidence automatically.

2 Yes, Madam Registrar.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. President, I have to say that the Defence

4 counsel did furnish the Registry yesterday with the document, and it was

5 filed yesterday. So the distribution probably took place this morning or

6 this afternoon, and you should, therefore, have it.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

8 Another matter is that because of the trial schedule of the other

9 cases, and the rearrangement of the courtroom on Thursday, 25th of

10 October, we will start out sitting at 9.30 in the morning, and we will

11 have lunch break at 1.00 p.m. But in the afternoon, we have to start the

12 afternoon sitting at 2.00 until 3.30. At 4.00 p.m., there might be other

13 Court proceedings in this courtroom.

14 Thank you. We are adjourned until Thursday, 9.30 a.m.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

16 4.50 p.m., to be reconvened on

17 Thursday, the 25th day of October, 2001,

18 at 9.30 a.m.