Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4761

1 Thursday, 1 November 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric.

7 Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-98-34-PT, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

10 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric. I'm sorry, I forget.

11 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good morning. I

12 apologise for standing up before the case was called. However, I have a

13 request to make. I don't really know what to call it. We are -- both our

14 clients and we are all Roman Catholics, and we observe a holiday.

15 Yesterday it was Remembrance Day and today is All Saints Day, and we all

16 participate in the prayers, and we usually go to the church to pray.

17 Today we'd like to do it, because the service in the church will

18 be at 3.00. So could we perhaps make a different kind of break, to stop

19 at 2.00 -- or rather, to begin the afternoon session at 2.00 and then work

20 until 3.00 so we could make it to the church, because the church closing

21 at 4.00, or to try to make some other arrangement. I don't know.

22 I do apologise. Perhaps you will think that it is out of place,

23 but we would really like to get to the church for about half an hour for

24 the prayer to remember our dead. Thank you very much.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 4762

1 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott.

2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, we have no objection. Counsel

3 consulted me this morning before you came in, and we have no objection to

4 some reasonable accommodation to that. If we could perhaps start -- maybe

5 lose a bit time at the end of day but also maybe pick up a bit of it by

6 starting -- maybe taking a shorter lunch. But in any event, whatever the

7 Judges -- Your Honours' wishes are, we do not object to some

8 accommodation.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. And on the side of the Judges,

10 we also have some problems. We have some other obligations during the

11 lunch break, and we were told that it is impossible for us to hold

12 afternoon session tomorrow afternoon because this courtroom is arranged

13 for another case.

14 So at this moment, we have a suggestion to make. We will have no

15 sitting this afternoon, as well as tomorrow afternoon, but we will make it

16 up next Friday afternoon, the Friday afternoon of next week.

17 Is that acceptable to all parties? Yes, Mr. Seric.

18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] What do you want me to tell you except

19 to say thank you very much. Of course it is acceptable. Thank you.

20 Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott.

22 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, we would ask -- the only thing we

23 could ask, please, is that -- we'd appreciate the accommodation of my

24 learned friends on the other side in terms of at least finishing the

25 witness that would probably start then today. We have a witness coming

Page 4763

1 from Bosna. Well, who is here from Bosnia. My concern -- I expect to

2 start him sometime this morning when the cross-examination is completed.

3 My concern would be, of course, that without this afternoon

4 whether we would finish him by 1.00 tomorrow, and again it would be an

5 unfortunate situation where he would have to stay here over the weekend.

6 So I just ask some accommodation from my learned friends about possibly

7 assuring, if they can, that the cross-examination be concluded tomorrow

8 morning. Thank you.

9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik. We're all in your hands.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours. I

11 can promise that our cross-examination of this witness and the next

12 witness will be finished in time. With the witness who is present here,

13 you will see for yourselves. I will be exceptionally brief, and I will do

14 my best to be brief with the next witness. I will respect all the wishes

15 expressed. And I should also like to thank Their Honours for granting us

16 this afternoon.

17 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Mr. Krsnik.

18 WITNESS: Witness GG [Resumed]

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

21 Q. Good morning, Witness. I am the counsel for the accused

22 Naletilic, and I shall ask you some questions. I say this to every

23 witness. I try to phrase them as short as possible so that your answers

24 can be as short as possible. But because we both speak the same language,

25 will you please make a pause after you hear my question to allow for the

Page 4764

1 interpretation to avoid overlapping. Thank you very much for your

2 understanding.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can I ask, please, the usher to put

4 Prosecutor's Exhibit 20.2 on the ELMO.

5 Q. Witness, my first question, do you recognise this photograph?

6 A. I think it is the Heliodrom.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Will you now please take the pointer -- oh,

8 you have it. Good. Now, if you can identify any of these buildings, or

9 you work here, will you please point out to us where you were?

10 A. Counsel, I shall try to point at the building, but I cannot be

11 certain that it is the building, because when we were brought there, we

12 were not allowed to look around. We were taken straight up to the door,

13 and we were not allowed to turn around or look around ourselves. So that

14 with all the reservations, I think it is this building.

15 Q. I will tell you very openly why I am asking you that. You

16 mentioned hangars or something, didn't you?

17 A. Hangars, yes. I'm sorry, I was too fast.

18 The hangars that I mentioned yesterday is what I heard from those

19 that we were together with for a meal in this chief building in which I

20 was. They were brought there, 30, 50, 100 men at a time, together, their

21 meal, and they were saying that they were in the hangar number 1, 2, 3, or

22 something.

23 Q. Where is that?

24 A. In the area of Heliodrom.

25 Q. Sorry. Do you mean this former military secondary school at the

Page 4765

1 Heliodrom or, broadly, the territory covered by Heliodrom?

2 A. No, I don't mean one building, I mean the whole compound, the

3 whole area covered by Heliodrom.

4 Q. Witness, as you can see, there are no hangars here. It was the

5 Soko factory.

6 A. I don't know, I made no tours of the area. I didn't have the

7 opportunity to see that.

8 Q. So that is something that you were told by others; you do not have

9 any knowledge of your own?

10 A. People who were detained there and who were brought under escort

11 to eat in the canteen in the cellar of this building.

12 Q. All right. Will you tell us, please, a few words about this

13 canteen. How many meals did you have a day, and what was the food like?

14 A. I think -- no, I don't think -- I'm sure that a few days after the

15 Red Cross visited us and brought parcels, that we began to have some meals

16 in the canteen. I think there were three meals a day. However, the chief

17 meal -- rather, the principal food was what we had been donated by the Red

18 Cross representatives, and that was rather meager.

19 Q. So we can say that insofar as food was concerned, it was quite all

20 right?

21 A. Yes, after these first two or three days, under the circumstances,

22 the food that we were getting was quite decent because we had no -- we

23 really did not think much of the quality or anything else after that

24 starvation that we went through.

25 Q. You mean during those first two days?

Page 4766

1 A. Yes, during those first two or three days.

2 Q. Did anyone bring you food privately? I mean you personally. Did

3 you get food from any other source?

4 A. Well, when we were driven out, rounded up from our flats, and when

5 we headed for the stadium, other people had some bags with clothes, but

6 my -- because nobody knew what would happen to us. My mother had taken a

7 few loaves of bread and some tinned sardines and taken that along. When

8 we were arrive at the Heliodrom and when we were locked up in the cells,

9 and then when we learned for certain after I had seen in the cellar many

10 women and children downstairs in the cellars, and after I was told that my

11 family was also there, then through some guards who used to be my

12 neighbour, he did bring us some food from downstairs.

13 Q. You mean during those two days?

14 A. Yes, of course. I have to tell you that, of course, I shared it

15 with other people, because it is enough for a man to have one bite or two

16 just to feel that they have taken in something.

17 Q. Yes, yes, yes. I understand that. Tell me, you told the

18 Honourable Court yesterday how some humanitarian organisations came, and

19 the television recorded it all and that that was an opportunity to have

20 the children out and to make them play and then this was all recorded, and

21 that nearby there was a van or something with some oranges and biscuits

22 and the like. So could you tell me which television ran this programme

23 and when was it done? Because you told us that your sister had seen it.

24 A. It was the HTV, and that is when they found out that we were at

25 the Heliodrom.

Page 4767

1 Q. So it was the HTV, and it was the 10th of May, the 10th until you

2 left? You were there for about 20 days.

3 A. 9th -- 9th -- as of 9th of May. So it could have been four or

4 five days later.

5 Q. Right. So we can look for this tape at the HTV?

6 A. Yes, you can do that.

7 Q. But as I was saying, your wife and your mother left about ten

8 days, just as all women and children did, if I understood you well.

9 A. Yes. So it would have been eight to ten. Maybe seven or eight

10 days, except for seven women who left at the same time we did. Those were

11 women of some age and allegedly they were mothers of soldiers fighting on

12 the other side, and they were released at the same time when -- with us,

13 because they were on the same bus with us.

14 Q. And after those seven and eight days, there were no more women and

15 children at the Heliodrom?

16 A. I did not see them.

17 Q. And your mother and your wife were not harmed by anyone? They

18 were treated decently?

19 A. Well, if you can call it that. They were detained and --

20 Q. No, no, no. Of course. That is out of the question.

21 A. No. There was no physical contact.

22 Q. Witness, you are an educated man, aren't you? I'm mindful of your

23 identity, and the -- but you are an educated man, and I am -- I want you

24 to explain to me -- as a mater of fact, I don't have too many questions,

25 but the differences, the inconsistencies between your statements -- oh,

Page 4768

1 no. Let me ask you this: Do you remember the statement that you gave to

2 the AID on the 8th of August, 1996?

3 A. I don't.

4 Q. Then let me remind you. In that statement, you never once

5 mentioned either Juka Prazina or Mr. Naletilic or Franjo Greguric or

6 Minister Tadic, nor this thing with children. All the rest is, I must

7 admit, is consistent with what you said today.

8 Now, this first statement in 1996, I presume that your memory was

9 fresher then than it is today. However, my question is: Did you tell all

10 the truth in 1996, everything that you knew then?

11 A. I do not know if they wrote it down, because of course my memory

12 must have been fresher at that time and all these impressions were still

13 much more vivid, and I believe that my more extensive -- that I even told

14 more than I did to the Prosecutors of this Tribunal. Why they did not

15 note it down, I do not know.

16 Q. But -- so you read it and signed it. You had no objections at the

17 time when you signed it. You could have objected then, couldn't you?

18 A. Sir, under the circumstances, few of us looked at what they were

19 signing and what --

20 Q. Yes, but it was the 8th of August, 1996, and that was a statement

21 to your people. It was not foreigners or strangers that you were making

22 the statement to.

23 A. Regardless, what they wanted to get from me was, I guess, some

24 facts. They did not want to note any details. And when this comes to my

25 children, my neighbours, people who lived around me, I think these -- this

Page 4769

1 is detail which I'm certain of and not forget. I may forget certain

2 things, but what happened to me, what happened to my children, to my

3 family, I'm quite positive they'll forget that.

4 Q. Sir, I deeply sympathise with you, but my question is: Why

5 didn't you tell AID, and then the investigators come, and you tell them

6 the events in a completely different -- no. I mean you mention the names

7 that you never before mentioned, and then you repeat them before this

8 Court.

9 Now, my question is: Are you still claiming that Mr. Greguric,

10 the Prime Minister of the Republic of Croatia, together with Mr. Rajic,

11 the President of the HDZ, was in the camp and that you saw him there, did

12 you?

13 A. Yes. And his explanation I remember well. An elderly man who was

14 sitting on the floor next to the door, and when they entered the cell, he

15 even smiled a little and said, "Don't tell me you're a conscript too."

16 Because this man looked of quite an age. That man was of Serb origin, and

17 he said that he wasn't 60 yet. That is why I remember this.

18 Q. Let us repeat it for the record. Mr. Franjo Greguric, the Prime

19 Minister of the Republic of Croatia?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And Mr. Rajic was with him?

22 A. And he wasn't the only one.

23 Q. Right. But you mentioned the two of them. You didn't mention

24 this in your first statement. That is what I'm trying to check now. You

25 also said that you were visited by the minister of -- Minister Tadic who

Page 4770

1 was the minister for refugees, that he came there with a group of

2 Americans. Would you please tell us what group of Americans was it, and

3 where could we perhaps find them?

4 A. Let me explain this. This group of Americans had all military

5 office badges. That is, they were also in uniforms, and they introduced

6 themselves as Americans. And even there was one in uniform, 50-ish, tall,

7 fat, big, fair haired.

8 Q. He was an American?

9 A. Yes. We were told that they were Americans.

10 Q. Very well. Tell me, this incident that you told about to the

11 investigators for the first time, that event that Tuta's soldiers were

12 somewhere, that you heard some noise or something, you never saw Tuta, did

13 you? How do you know that they were Tuta's soldiers? Because yesterday,

14 if I understood you properly, you only heard that they were Tuta's

15 soldiers, that you did not know it of your own knowledge.

16 A. If I remember well, I was very precise yesterday and said how I

17 found that out.

18 Q. Yes, but that's what I'm trying to establish. You found that

19 out.

20 A. Yes, I found that out, but it was from the guards because we heard

21 this noise. So I heard it from guards that they were Tuta's soldiers.

22 Q. Yes, that was the only thing that I wanted to clarify. Nothing

23 else.

24 Witness GG, I will ask you something very frankly, which may be

25 perhaps a little unusual for this kind of cross-examination. You do not

Page 4771












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Page 4772

1 like Mr. Misic particularly, do you?

2 A. What do you mean? I do not like him? Perhaps I feel sorry for

3 him because of what he did.

4 Q. I'm asking you that because you gave almost three different

5 versions of his visit to the camp, and they show that, to put it very

6 mildly, you do not think highly of that man, that you dislike him, that

7 perhaps you hate him, or that you feel sorry for him. The first time you

8 said that Mr. Misic had come, before you had come out, and said that the

9 fate of Muslims and Croats was tied together, whatever you might think of

10 it. That was in your first statement that you gave to the AID.

11 In your second statement to the investigators, you described the

12 identical event, that is, Misic comes, and now you are asked whether you

13 will be released, as in the first statement. You say that he told you,

14 Well, if everything is all right, then you will be released. But if not

15 everything is all right, what he thought or what you thought, that he was

16 a member of the BH army or something, that such would be sent either to

17 Zenica or to their grave.

18 A. Let me explain that. Misic must have known me from somewhere.

19 And when he appeared in the passage, a group of his neighbours from

20 Balinovac told him, Major, let us go. And he explained to them that they

21 were being interrogated, all the rest. But when he saw me, he came up to

22 me directly the day my wife and children and the rest of my family were

23 released -- rather, were about to be released and were released. And I

24 wanted to seize that opportunity. And since I saw that he knew me, since

25 he had come up to me, then I said, Major, could I also go with my family?

Page 4773

1 How can they go on their own? And he said, No, you won't be in any

2 trouble if you were never in the army. We shall question you and there

3 will be no problem. But whoever belonged to the army, it will be either

4 Zenica or the grave. And then -- may I continue?

5 Q. Yes, please, do go on.

6 A. And then he did a round of the cells and said we have to live

7 together. We cannot live one without the other. And as far as I know,

8 whether it was that day or perhaps the day before, there was a meeting at

9 Medjurgorje where they were precisely discussing the cessation of

10 hostilities or something or cease-fire or an end to this conflict.

11 Q. Yes, thank you very much for your answer, but I asked you

12 something else. What you just explained -- this is the first time what

13 you are telling us because in the first statement, there's only one

14 sentence. In the second statement, there is a different statement. And

15 yesterday, you did not mention it at all. But I do not want to insist on

16 this, so I'm coming to my last question.

17 You said that this release -- and we know that 80 percent of all

18 the men who were not members of the BH army left the camp after 20 days;

19 only the members of the BH army stayed on at the Heliodrom. So my

20 question is, You say that an agreement had been reached between the lawful

21 authorities of the HZ HB and the BH army, that is, representatives of the

22 two armies, that is, representatives of the two authorities with the

23 mediation of General Morillon. This is my last question. Is that true?

24 A. That is how -- what we were told down there. But let me just add,

25 it wasn't the members of the BH army left at the Heliodrom. The majority

Page 4774

1 were released. As soon as Morillon left, people, they were taken back to

2 the cells. That is once General Morillon was there, even the majority of

3 the army members were released. But a few days later, they were rounded

4 up again and brought back to the camp.

5 Q. That is what I was saying, because there was an understanding to

6 disband the camp. And you started, well, with Medjurgorje. But then it

7 was said that only members of the BH army after your release -- I mean,

8 towards the end of May at the Heliodrom, there were only members of the BH

9 army at long last. Perhaps, you didn't understand very well.

10 A. I do not know that. I'm not sure.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for your

12 answers. Your Honours, I do not have any further questions.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

14 Cross-examination, Mr. Seric.

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Seric:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Witness GG, let me take you back to the 9th of

18 May when you had to leave your apartment. Did you see -- did you take a

19 good look at the soldiers who had kicked you out of the apartment and then

20 lined you up in front of the building?

21 A. I believe that, in fact, I had known a number of these men by

22 sight.

23 Q. Did you see the uniforms that they were wearing?

24 A. These were the HVO uniforms.

25 Q. Did they all wear the same uniforms? I mean the same camouflage

Page 4775

1 or some combination with the drab olive uniforms?

2 A. It is hard for me to answer that. I did not pay that much

3 attention. And in fact, I did not dare look much. But I believe that

4 they are all were wearing camouflage uniform.

5 Q. When you said that you did not dare look much, how did you have to

6 behave?

7 A. We were kicked out of our apartments. Then this column was formed

8 and we were told to march, and we were not allowed to look left or right.

9 Those were the orders.

10 Q. And where was the column formed?

11 A. Right there in front of the building.

12 Q. Do you know who formed it?

13 A. The people who had kicked us out.

14 Q. You said that you did not have any detailed knowledge of the

15 uniforms. Did they have any special insignia on their uniforms, if you

16 remember?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. You said that you saw Vinko Martinovic. Where was he standing?

19 A. As we exited the building, it would have been to the south.

20 Q. Was he alone?

21 A. No, he was alone.

22 Q. Was he closer to the road or closer to the entrance of the

23 building?

24 A. Closer to the entrance, maybe 1 or 2 metres away.

25 Q. Did you notice what he was doing?

Page 4776

1 A. According to me, he stood and controlled the unfolding of the

2 operation.

3 Q. You said that he had ordered someone to leave the column. Was

4 that before you left or what? Once you got going? Please tell us what

5 happened.

6 A. There was a journalist, and he called him by name to get out the

7 column once the column got going. It was -- and then after that, he was

8 sent back to the column and we continued marching.

9 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Can we go into the private

10 session for just the next couple of questions, please.

11 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session.

12 [Private session]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 (redacted)

Page 4777

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.

5 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Did anyone else -- can anyone else in addition to you corroborate

7 this story that you just told us, from people in the column?

8 A. Everybody in the column saw this. All my neighbours did, saw this

9 journalist.

10 Q. You also mentioned Ernest Takac. Did you know him before the war,

11 that is, before the Bosniak and Croat conflict?

12 A. Yes. I knew him by sight because he frequently came to the

13 neighbourhood. I had no contact with him, but I came to know him well,

14 because both while he was a civilian and later on, he behaved in a very

15 arrogant way.

16 Q. Did you see him since the war, in the years since? Can we agree

17 that he was prone to violence, that he was out of control?

18 A. I believe that his behaviour during any contact I had with him was

19 not normal.

20 Q. I have no further questions. Thank you.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any re-examination?

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you, Your Honour. I don't have any

23 questions.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you, Witness, for giving the

25 evidence. When the usher pulls down the blinds, he will take you out of

Page 4778

1 the room.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you to this Honourable

3 Chamber.

4 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Prosecutor, do you have any documents to tender at

5 this stage?

6 MR. PORIOUVAEV: No, thank you, Your Honour. I don't have any.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. And who will deal with the next witness?

8 MR. SCOTT: I will, Your Honour.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 MR. SCOTT: May it please, the Court. Mr. President, the next

11 witness requests to testify with the protective measures of -- to have his

12 facial image protected and testify using a pseudonym.

13 JUDGE LIU: I guess there is no objections from Defence counsels.

14 Thank you.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: Your request is granted.

17 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE LIU: Would you please brief us with the relevance in the

19 indictment at this moment.

20 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour, this witness will give

21 testimony in evidence concerning the background parts of the indictment,

22 paragraph 7, as well as paragraphs 10 to 11; superior authority,

23 paragraphs 14 to 16; general allegations, paragraphs 18 to 20; count 1,

24 paragraph 26 to 29, and 34(a) and 34(b); and counts 2 through 8,

25 paragraphs 35 to 40.

Page 4779

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

5 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may sit down.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Examined by Mr. Scott:

13 Q. Mr. Witness, good morning. The usher is going to show you now a

14 piece of paper that has your name on it. I should advise you that the

15 Chamber has granted your request for protective measures in this, that

16 your correct name, your actual name, will not be used anywhere on the

17 record so that your identity will be protected, and you will also have

18 your facial image protected in terms of the broadcast or the video

19 record.

20 In order to do that or to confirm, nonetheless, your identity for

21 the record, I'm going to ask you to look at this paper and simply answer

22 yes or no, is that your name? Don't state your name, please.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, in that regard, in that same regard, Witness -- and you will

25 be referred to, I believe, as -- I believe it will be HH.

Page 4780

1 As I just explained to you, Witness, you will be referred to in

2 these proceedings as HH, again to protect your identity. In that regard,

3 let me advise you, please, to be mindful of using -- you might

4 inadvertently use your name or the name of a close family member or

5 something that might tend to identify you. So please be mindful of that,

6 if you could, for your own protection. Do you understand that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Witness HH, is it correct that you are a person of Bosniak

9 ethnicity?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You were born in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And where did you grow up, at least most of the time?

14 A. In my hometown.

15 Q. And what is that or was that?

16 A. Bivolje Brdo.

17 Q. And can you tell us, just very roughly speaking, because many of

18 us may not familiar with that particular village or location, where is

19 that in relation to Mostar?

20 A. That was in the municipality of Capljina, and the village borders

21 on the Mostar municipality.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. And it is 25 kilometres from the approaches to Mostar, from the

24 municipal line.

25 Q. All right. Witness HH, I'm not going to ask you anything further

Page 4781

1 about your background or residence, again not to tend to identify you any

2 further.

3 Is it correct, sir, that immediately prior to the outbreak of the

4 armed conflict in Mostar in early May of 1993, around that time you were

5 living in a flat or apartment in East Mostar?

6 A. Yes, that is correct.

7 Q. Is it also correct, sir, that you joined the territorial defence

8 on the 19th of September, 1991?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Is it also correct that you then joined the HVO for a short time

11 in approximately August or September, 1992?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Can you briefly explain to the Chamber why you joined the HVO at

14 that time?

15 A. Because the units of the TO at that time had to be reconfigured as

16 the HVO units.

17 Q. Why do you say "they had to be"?

18 A. This happened exactly after the HOS General Blaz Kraljevic was

19 killed.

20 Q. All right. And how was it that, again, that the TO forces -- you

21 felt that you were required at that point to join the HVO?

22 A. Well, we simply received a summons to all appear at the particular

23 location where we used to come. And we were told very briefly and simply

24 that from that day on, we were the first battalion of the Capljina

25 Brigade, and that was it.

Page 4782












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Page 4783

1 Q. Who told you this?

2 A. The commander.

3 Q. Who was that?

4 A. Mirsad Zubovic.

5 Q. Had he formally been a member of the territorial defence himself,

6 or was he an HVO officer?

7 A. At that time, he became overnight an HVO officer.

8 Q. All right. And I take it by your answer, then, correct me if I

9 misunderstand, that prior to that time he was an officer in the

10 territorial defence?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did he explain to you how it was, as you say, that overnight he

13 became -- he went from being a territorial defence officer to being an HVO

14 officer?

15 A. He did not explain anything.

16 Q. Is it correct, sir, that you, in fact, resigned or left the HVO a

17 short time -- a short time after this when the HVO attacked Prozor in

18 approximately September 1992?

19 A. Yes, that is correct. I left the HVO in September 1992

20 approximately, on the 12th or on the 13th. I cannot remember exactly.

21 Q. All right. Now, Witness HH, I'm going to jump forward for a

22 moment just to give the Chamber a bit of the setting of your overall

23 testimony. Is it correct, sir, that on the 10th of May, 1993, you were

24 arrested in Mostar by the HVO and taken to the MUP station there?

25 A. Yes, that is also correct, in the night of the 10th of May, 1993,

Page 4784

1 around 11.00.

2 Q. I'm going to come back to that in a moment in more detail. Is it

3 also correct that on about the 14th of May, you were moved from Mostar,

4 from the MUP station, to another detention facility at Ljubuski?

5 A. Approximately, the 13th or the 14th. It was in the night.

6 Q. And further, is it correct that on about the 27th of May, about,

7 you were then moved from Ljubuski to the Heliodrom?

8 A. Yes. That was a group of about 110 men, for the most part from

9 Sovici, and we were told that we were going to be exchanged.

10 Q. All right. Then did you then remain a prisoner at the Heliodrom

11 for some time after the 27th of May, for some months after the 27th of

12 May, 1993?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. All right. Now, as I mentioned to you, Witness, just so you're

15 not confused, I'll come back to those things in more detail in a few

16 minutes.

17 Is it correct, sir, that during the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina that

18 as many as 40 members of your family or close friends were killed or

19 tortured during that war?

20 A. Yes, including my immediate family and my extended family and my

21 friends.

22 Q. Now, is it correct that from about the fall of 1992 until April

23 1993, you were aware that there were growing tensions through this time

24 between the Croats and the Bosniaks?

25 A. Yes, I'm aware. And this is the reason why I did not want to take

Page 4785

1 part in that conflict.

2 Q. And is it correct that at some points, at some points in time and

3 at various locations, these tensions from time to time broke out into

4 actual fighting, such as Gornji Vakuf in approximately January 1993?

5 A. Yes. That was approximately in early January, even though it

6 was -- from what we learned, even though it was difficult to have much

7 information in Mostar.

8 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to direct your attention now, moving

9 more to the core of your testimony, I'm going to direct your attention to

10 April of 1993. About the middle of that month, did things take a

11 substantial turn for the worse, if you will? Did the conflict between the

12 Bosniaks and the Croats become more intense at that time?

13 A. Approximately from what I recall, after all these years, that was

14 17 or 18 April, 1993.

15 Q. What happened, as you recall, on the 17th and 18th of April, 1993?

16 A. In that period, several people were arrested, actually, three of

17 my friends during that period, between the 17th to 18th and the 23rd,

18 by -- I don't know whether this was a civilian police or the HVO police.

19 I really am not sure who they were.

20 Q. Without being able to be more specific about that, do you

21 associate the people who arrested them with, we might say, the

22 Bosnian/Croat side, whether they were civilian police or whether they were

23 HVO soldiers?

24 A. According to their own words, they were military policemen.

25 Q. All right. And with the HVO, then, is that what you're telling

Page 4786

1 us?

2 A. Who is "they"?

3 Q. Sir, you told us just a moment ago that three of your friends were

4 arrested by somebody. Who arrested them?

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

6 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I believe that question

7 has been asked and answered. He answered it was the military police.

8 With that objection, I would just also like to point out I have been very

9 patient with my learned colleague because it has been background

10 information so far. However, Mr. Scott is beginning to get into

11 testimony, and I will be objecting to leading questions in the future.

12 But I think this question has been asked and answered. Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott. Can you lead us directly to the 10th

14 of May, 1993.

15 MR. SCOTT: We are getting there very quickly, Your Honour, but

16 there are a couple of questions this witness can help us with a few days

17 before the 10th of May. I agree that the question was answered,

18 Mr. President, but then the witness hesitated, and there may have been

19 some confusion about who these people arresting these parties were. So

20 that's why I went back and asked him again to clarify. When he said his

21 three friends were arrested, he said military police.

22 Q. Of what organisation, of what side or group, were these military

23 police?

24 A. I have no idea.

25 Q. So you don't know whether they were Bosnian -- whether they were

Page 4787

1 Bosniak police, or Croat police, or you have no idea?

2 A. I have no idea.

3 Q. All right. Now, can you please tell us anything else that

4 happened around the 17th of April, 1993? Were there attacks, and if so,

5 can you tell us anything you know about those attacks?

6 A. At that time, I was not a member of any unit. There was some

7 exchange of fire and there was -- some people were killed, but the only

8 thing I know is that my friends were released on the 23rd.

9 Q. All right. Do you recall from your time -- during this time other

10 attacks on Herzegovina occurring around the middle of April 1993?

11 A. As far as I recall, on the 17th or 18th of April, there was the

12 incident at Sovici, in the Jablanica municipality.

13 Q. And can you also tell us, around this time do you know -- was

14 there any attacks or armed action concerning a building called the Vranica

15 building in Mostar? Not on the 9th and 10th of May but some weeks before

16 that.

17 A. It was at that time, roughly between the 17th or 18th until the

18 23rd, it happened. It was some kind of an introduction, an overture to

19 the war. There were some skirmishes. People were arrested.

20 Q. Okay. As part of this you just said overture to the war, did it

21 involve an attack on the Vranica building around the 18th of April, 1993?

22 A. I really have nothing to do with it. I have no idea whether the

23 building was attacked.

24 Q. All right and do you recall whether there was an HVO action at a

25 place called Gubavica?

Page 4788

1 A. Yes. That happened in the early morning of the 19th of

2 November -- sorry, 19th April 1993.

3 Q. And can you tell us briefly what you know happened at Gubavica?

4 A. At that time at Gubavica, detachments, that is units of the

5 Capljina Brigade, the HVO attacked the command, and people from the

6 Bregava Brigade manned the front lines opposing the Chetniks.

7 Q. Did you lose any member of your family in that action, when the

8 HVO attacked Gubavica?

9 A. Yes, a rather close relative.

10 Q. All right. I'm not going to ask you to mention the name or go

11 further than that at this time.

12 Now, you've mentioned these friends that were arrested were then

13 released on about the 23rd of May, 1993; is that correct?

14 A. Sorry?

15 Q. Or excuse me. 23rd of April. My mistake. Around the 23rd of

16 April.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell the Chamber what you know of any negotiations

19 occurring between the Bosniak side and the HVO side around that time which

20 may have contributed to these persons being released?

21 A. At that time, during those skirmishes and arrests, negotiations

22 took place, and as far as I can remember, Mr. Ejup Ganic was in Mostar,

23 and they managed to bring the tension down, and they agreed on the joint

24 command of the HVO and the BH army.

25 Q. And can you tell the Chamber, who may not be familiar with this

Page 4789

1 particular name up to this point in the trial, who was Mr. Ganic, and what

2 was his position at that time?

3 A. He was the vice-president of the Republic -- no. The

4 vice-president of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

5 Q. Was he a Bosniak, a Serb, or a Croat?

6 A. Why, he was a Bosniak.

7 Q. Now, directing your attention then some days forward, can you tell

8 us where you were on the 8th of May, 1993?

9 A. On the 8th of May, 1993, I was in West Mostar, in the immediate

10 vicinity of the students' hostel, visiting with relatives. It was natural

11 to cross the river after the truce and after these negotiations and the

12 joint command, because the tension had abated.

13 Q. Is it correct that during the evening of the 8th of May, that is,

14 you would say between the 8th of May and the 9th of May, that you spent

15 the night at the apartment of these friends?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us what happened on the morning of the 9th of May?

18 A. Early in the morning on the 9th of May, we were awakened by shots,

19 by detonations. There was shooting all around, and I realised that

20 something terrible had happen.

21 Q. And I may have -- sorry. You answered that. And what were you

22 able to observe? I assume if you woke up and got out of bed, were you

23 able to look outside? Were you able to look around? Can you tell the

24 Chamber more of what you saw happening at that time?

25 A. What happened was that when I woke up after those detonations -

Page 4790

1 because it was a ground-floor flat in that building, so that the glass

2 panes broke - we had to lie down on the floor. We dared not move because

3 there was gunfire from all around. One could hear detonations nearby.

4 That is all I can say.

5 Q. Can you tell us, again without giving us too much detail, was the

6 flat where you were staying at this time and where you were and what

7 you're telling us just now, was this flat close to a building called the

8 Vranica building?

9 A. About 100, 150 metres east of Vranica building.

10 Q. And directing your attention to about 11.00 on the 9th of May,

11 1993, what happened?

12 A. 9th of May?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. 1993? At what time?

15 Q. Around 11.00, please.

16 A. I'm sorry. I must have heard wrongly.

17 Q. I will repeat the question. You've told us, Witness, that you

18 spent the night between the 8th and 9th of May at this apartment in West

19 Mostar near the Vranica building, that there was fire that woke you up.

20 I'm directing your attention later that morning at approximately 11.00.

21 What happened?

22 A. Oh. The next day, they came, broke the door. I mean, three

23 masked men. They were looking for weapons. We were lying on the floor

24 and said we had no weapons, but they said that we had to stay on the floor

25 and not leave the building.

Page 4791

1 Q. Let me ask you a couple of clarifications, please. Let's do get

2 the date correct. Perhaps I misspoke.

3 You said -- just now you said "the next day." Are you telling

4 us what -- when these people came into the apartment that that was on the

5 10th of May?

6 A. I said -- I said that on the 9th of May, in the morning, when the

7 HVO attack started and the Croatian army and aggression against

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 Q. All right. And that started on the 9th of May. But when you tell

10 us now that some people came into -- some soldiers came into the apartment

11 where you were staying, was that on the 9th of May or on the 10th of May?

12 A. That happened twice during the -- on the 9th of May sometime in

13 daytime, and in the evening of the 10th of May.

14 Q. All right. Well, let's talk about the first time. Tell us more

15 what happened the first time that these soldiers came into your apartment,

16 or the apartment where you were staying.

17 A. They did not come. They broke into the flat looking for weapons.

18 I said so a while ago. And they told us that we had to stay on the floor,

19 that we were not to go out anywhere, and we went by that.

20 Q. Could you identify these soldiers by anything that they said or

21 wore as to what military unit or army they were part of?

22 A. Those men were in camouflage uniforms. I'm not sure but perhaps

23 one of them had a black uniform. They had very clearly the HB badges, not

24 the HVO.

25 Q. Did they have anything else about their persons as part of their

Page 4792

1 uniform or about them that you believe also identified them?

2 A. They had small flags, tiny flags, on one of the shoulders, on the

3 shoulders or on the upper arm somewhere.

4 Q. Of what country were these flags?

5 A. Of the Croatian State.

6 Q. So they came into the apartment looking for weapons, told you to

7 lay down on the floor. What happened after that?

8 A. What happened? Well, there was gunfire all day long. We could

9 not really get any food or even have some water because that was the

10 ground floor of the building.

11 Q. All right. Well, take us, forward, please now -- you said this

12 happened twice. Take us to the second time, please, that any soldiers

13 entered this flat.

14 A. The second time, they came, pulled my cousin and me out, and that

15 was in the evening of the 10th, that is, the next day. Then they told us

16 to put our hands at the back of our heads, put us against the wall. And

17 at the -- in the -- as I was coming out of the flat, I saw a man lying on

18 the ground. He had been wounded, and I recognised two persons who were

19 also in that passage. And I recognised doctor/surgeon Martinovic who was

20 trying to lend aid to the man lying on the floor.

21 Q. Before you go forward with your story, will you please assist us,

22 if you can, the soldiers that came on the evening of the 10th of May, were

23 you able to observe anything that led you to believe what army or unit

24 they were from?

25 A. One of them had a markedly Dalmatian pronunciation.

Page 4793












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4794

1 Q. And did you draw any particular conclusion from that?

2 A. Why, of course I did. If that soldier speaks dalmatian dialect,

3 then it means that the Croatian army is in the vicinity and that he,

4 himself, is a member of the Croatian army.

5 Q. All right. Now, going forward then, you said you were taken out,

6 put against the wall, and you said you saw some things. There was a man

7 lying in the passage, I believe you said. So tell us more about what you

8 saw at that time.

9 A. As I came out of the flat, to the left was the door into the other

10 flat, and there was a soldier lying -- I don't know which one, I'm not

11 sure. It was a soldier in a camouflage uniform. And in that small

12 hallway in that area, there were two more persons. And there was

13 Dr. Martinovic, a surgeon who was aiding the person lying on the floor.

14 And other members were beating those other two in the immediate vicinity.

15 Q. All right. Let's, again, get a bit more clarification. You said

16 that there was a soldier lying on the floor.

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. Did you know which -- again, which army or military force that

19 soldier was from, the one that you say was lying on the floor?

20 A. He was a member of the BH army. His name was Avdo Cehic.

21 Q. Then you said you saw some people being beaten. Who were they?

22 And I don't necessarily mean by name, but by description or who were these

23 other persons who were being beaten at that time?

24 A. One was 55, close to 60, and another one was a boy of 16.

25 Q. At the time you saw these men either lying on the floor or being

Page 4795

1 beaten, were any of them armed?

2 A. None.

3 Q. Did you hear the name or come to know the name of one of the --

4 I'll give you either option -- either HV or HVO soldiers you saw in the

5 passage at that time? Did you come to know the name of one those persons?

6 A. I'll never forget that. The person who beat the worst was short;

7 he was small. He lacked his front teeth, fair haired. The one, I mean,

8 who spoke the dalmatian dialect.

9 Q. Do you recall, did you hear a name or a nickname for this person?

10 A. People addressed him as "Splico".

11 Q. Did you ever see this Splico again? And later on, again, in other

12 parts of your testimony that we'll get to. Later on after this event, did

13 you see this Splico again?

14 A. I saw him at the Heliodrom. While I was detained at the Heliodrom

15 in the central prison, I saw him there a couple of times.

16 Q. Do you recall in what capacity was this Splico when you saw him?

17 Was he there as a guard or a prisoner or what, if you know?

18 A. At the very beginning of my detention in the central prison at the

19 Heliodrom, he came as a soldier. Wasn't ashamed of it. I think he was

20 very proud to have only the HV on his sleeve. And then all of a sudden,

21 he was locked up above us, whether he was a prisoner there, was he there

22 to squeal on us, to inform on us. I have no idea what he was doing on the

23 upper floor of the prison.

24 Q. All right. Well, what happened next, then, after you saw these

25 men being beaten and this Splico? What happened to you after that?

Page 4796

1 A. Me and my relative, the one that I was in the flat with, took out,

2 this elderly man and this boy of 17, with our hands at the back of our

3 heads, and they took us to the police building which was in the immediate

4 vicinity.

5 Q. Was this a building of the Herceg-Bosna civilian police?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. And were you left there, you and this other man -- or, excuse me,

8 these other men?

9 A. They took us into the yard, the yard in front of that building,

10 and we had to stand there like this with our hands up, and that is where I

11 experienced the first blow. I have no idea. I'm saying I'll never forget

12 it, because I've never had any trouble with anyone before, but then I was

13 kicked here on the left. And before I realised what was happening,

14 everybody around was on me and beating me.

15 Q. Do you recall approximately how many other prisoners or persons

16 were being detained at the police station when you arrived there or

17 shortly thereafter?

18 A. At the very beginning, that moment when we entered this yard,

19 there was a small room which served as a depot or something, a storage

20 place, a very narrow one, and there were a few civilians. I can't

21 remember how many, but a few civilians were there.

22 Q. And what happened after that? Were any of you taken for

23 interrogation?

24 A. They first took that elderly man for interrogation. Then they

25 took my cousin, but he didn't stay there long. And then my turn came.

Page 4797

1 Q. And what happened to you when they came for you?

2 A. As I entered first up the stairs, then I reached a passage, and in

3 the doorway of the room, the first room or office - I don't know really

4 what to call it properly - I heard a shot fired in that office.

5 Q. And what happened next?

6 A. And a person came up to me and said, "You're the next one."

7 Q. Continue on, please.

8 A. I was taken over by persons. I don't know how many of them. It

9 is difficult to say. There were some lamps inside. It was all arranged.

10 This passage was full of policemen and camouflage uniforms. So it's

11 difficult to say. I couldn't really. I had to keep my head down and my

12 hands on my head all the time, but they took me into a room and said

13 they'd show me a videotape and that I'd recognise myself on that

14 videotape.

15 Q. What was this a videotape of?

16 A. That videotape was about a troop review or some oath of allegiance

17 of members of the BH army.

18 Q. And if I understand you well, they showed you this videotape and

19 they asked you what, to identify people if you could?

20 A. They said that I'd find myself on the tape.

21 Q. What happened after that?

22 A. Well, naturally I did not find myself on that tape. I did not

23 recognise myself there.

24 Q. Were you then beaten?

25 A. After that, as far as I can remember, they told me to take -- they

Page 4798

1 gave me a piece of paper and a pencil and told me to write a CV of a

2 kind.

3 Q. All right. Go on.

4 A. And as far as I can remember, I then wrote down, naturally, what I

5 knew about myself.

6 Q. And how long did you stay in this room?

7 A. Well, it's hard to tell, but I remember well how that person who

8 gave me that piece of paper and the pencil, as I was writing, was opposite

9 the table and that person's name was Vinko Beno.

10 Q. And I want to move forward quickly, Witness HH, if we ask. Let me

11 just ask you again: During the time that you were in that room, at any

12 point in time were you then beaten by police officers or soldiers in the

13 room?

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

15 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours. I have two objections.

16 One, that is a very leading question, and it's the second time he's asked

17 the question. He got -- he didn't get an answer he wanted, now he's

18 repeated the leading question two times, and I object.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, it is the second time you've asked the

20 question.

21 MR. SCOTT: It is, Mr. President.

22 Q. Witness HH, did anything else happen to you before being taken out

23 of that room when all this came to an end?

24 A. After I'd written that statement, the gentleman I recognised in

25 front of me, and I'm 100 per cent sure of that, Mr. Vinko Beno, a person

Page 4799

1 showed me a badge, a badge which had an Islamic temple on it, and he asked

2 me, "Do you know what this is?" And I paused a little and then I said,

3 "Well, that is a house of prayer." And then he said, "Balija, isn't --

4 ain't it a mosque?" And I never received such a blow at the nape of my

5 neck. That could be dealt only by a professional.

6 Q. Where were you taken after this?

7 A. After that, after that, they took me -- the gentleman said that I

8 could wash myself a little. I did. And then they took me back into that

9 small room which they called Pascara.

10 Q. What does that mean?

11 A. Well, they called that area over there in that yard, that place,

12 that small area which had no door to it even.

13 Q. Well, they called it, you said, Pascara?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And perhaps, Witness HH, either you or if the Translation Unit can

16 please help us, can you give us a --

17 THE INTERPRETER: It is a kennel, yes.

18 MR. SCOTT: A kennel.

19 THE INTERPRETER: That's right.

20 A. Yes. That's it more or less. A doghouse, a kennel, a house for a

21 dog.


23 Q. All right. And what happened to you after that, Witness HH? How

24 long did you stay in this Pascara?

25 A. That same night when I was brought there, the night of the 10th to

Page 4800

1 the 11th I returned, my relative and that elderly man had already been

2 brought back to this room, and I also spotted a lady sitting on a chair

3 outside, and she wasn't there when we had arrived there first.

4 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, if I can just ask one or two more

5 questions to finish on this item.

6 Q. When you came back to this room or area called the Pascara, were

7 there any other prisoners that had been brought there, either during your

8 absence or perhaps they arrived a short time after you returned. Perhaps

9 you can explain.

10 A. There was this lady sitting in that chair, and there was

11 Mr. Rudolf Jozelic, who is a Catholic, and there were a few of -- a few

12 more people, and the faces of some I knew and the faces of others I

13 didn't.

14 Q. If I can just ask you again. Is there any other -- can you name

15 any of the others that were there that you saw at that time, apart from

16 the one that you've mentioned so far by name?

17 A. [redacted].

18 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I would suggest that that would be a

19 good place to break.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will resume at 11.30.

21 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

24 MR. SCOTT: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Q. Witness HH, directing your attention to the 11th of May, did a

Page 4801

1 truck arrive in the vicinity of where you were being held? And if so, can

2 you just tell us what happened in that regard.

3 A. Approximately on the 11th, between 9.00 and 12.00 in the morning,

4 a truck arrived with a lot of equipment, and an order was given that we

5 unload this equipment into -- and place it in a garage or a storage room.

6 I'm not sure.

7 Q. Did you participate, in fact, in doing that?

8 A. Yes, I did. And while I worked -- actually, until the time, I

9 only had my undershirt on and my trunks, and I was barefoot.

10 Q. Were you able, around this time, because of the things that you

11 were unloading, were you able to find some clothing to put on?

12 A. Yes, I found a pair of pants which were fairly short. I put them

13 on, and some kind of a shirt. And I still had no footwear to put on.

14 Q. Was it stated to you or did you come to know around this time

15 where this material that was being unloaded from the truck, where that had

16 come from?

17 A. The lady who was sitting -- that lady who was sitting there all

18 the time while we were there in that kennel, as we called it, she was

19 sitting outside. And she told us that this was from the 4th Corps

20 headquarters that this material had come from.

21 Q. And did you see any women prisoners around this time?

22 A. Well, that is the lady that I have been referring to all this

23 time. She was sitting outside, outdoors, in a chair all that time.

24 Q. I want to direct you forward on the 11th of May. Did you go back

25 to a room -- again, a room that had some sort of videorecorder in it and,

Page 4802

1 if so, what happened?

2 A. The same night -- actually, no, the day when we unloaded that,

3 this was the first time that we got something to eat, as far as I recall.

4 And on the evening of the 11th, a soldier came, a person in a black

5 uniform, and this person took me -- I cannot recall where. I know that it

6 was dark. The person was wearing a black uniform, and I was again taken

7 to be interrogated.

8 Q. Briefly, what happened during the interrogation? You don't have

9 to tell us everything that happened in detail, but will you just tell us a

10 bit about what happened to you then?

11 A. Yes. In addition to the person who led me to the interrogation,

12 there were an additional two persons, very strongly built, who were

13 there. They told me -- the two persons that I could see, that is -- they

14 said, Balija, you will now recognise yourself in this cassette as a member

15 of the ABiH.

16 Q. Now, around that time, or at any time during the course of events

17 you're telling us about now, did you know or come to know the names or

18 identities of any of these persons who were questioning you at that time?

19 A. At that moment, as this tape was played back to me, this was a

20 videocassette from the outtaking of the 42nd Mountain Brigade in the

21 village of Bujeca [phoen], I did recognise myself on that tape.

22 Q. All right, and what happened next? Actually, my question to

23 you -- listen to my question, please. Were you able to identify any of

24 the people who were questioning you at that time, the people who were in

25 the room with you?

Page 4803

1 A. The person who had brought me there and the two persons who I saw

2 there for the first time in that room, it was -- they said that I should

3 be taken over by a person named Lovric.

4 Q. All right. And did you identify any of the other persons that

5 were in this room around this time or that did anything to you?

6 A. The person who took me over with Mr. Lovric and Mr. Vinko Beno was

7 mentioned previously.

8 Q. Who was Vinko Beno, and how was he involved in this?

9 A. He was a former policeman of the former state of Yugoslavia. And

10 at that time, he was with the Herceg-Bosna police but was originally from

11 the Capljina municipality. He was born in the village of Rovna or

12 something.

13 Q. What did he do or what role did he play during the events when you

14 were being held -- being taken to this room?

15 A. When it was said that this Mr. Lovric should take me over and the

16 gentleman in the black uniform and another two persons whom I was unable

17 to -- whose faces I was unable to make out, but they were very powerfully

18 built. It's hard for me to say this because this is -- I would not like

19 anyone to experience this. I prefer not to talk about this. I rarely

20 bring this up, and this is a very terrible thing that happened.

21 Q. Witness, let me stop you there, because I'm not going to ask you

22 to tell us in detail about what happened, and with the Chamber's

23 indulgence. Were you treated very badly during this time?

24 A. Animals are not treated the way those gentlemen treated me on that

25 occasion.

Page 4804












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Page 4805

1 Q. And I'm going to ask you, and again I'm not asking you to describe

2 what happened to you because I'm going to respect your wishes on that, and

3 I will certainly be in the Chamber's hands whether they wish it to be

4 further pursued or not, did you know or come to know the identities of the

5 two men who did these things to you?

6 A. In addition to the identity of a person of Niko Beno, of which I'm

7 100 per cent certain, I learned later that those two persons were Ernest

8 Takac and Romeo Blazevic, who was born in Donja Mahala.

9 Q. How did you come to know either then or later that that was the --

10 that these were the identities of these two men, that is, Blazevic and

11 Takac?

12 A. When we were transferred to Ljubuski. It was shortly thereafter,

13 a day or two later at Ljubuski. The person who knew both of them -- and

14 we were all standing in a circle in that prison in Ljubuski, and these two

15 persons came to drink "balija blood," as they said. And the person

16 standing next to me who knew them well received blows by those two. And I

17 told him -- I asked him whether he knew them, and he said their names.

18 This is how I learned who they were.

19 Q. All right. Now, let me ask you some clarifying questions on

20 that. Do I understand you correctly, Witness HH, to be saying then that

21 you saw these same two men in Ljubuski a few days later beating someone

22 else?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. These were the same men who had done these things to you in

25 Mostar?

Page 4806

1 A. That is correct, yes.

2 Q. All right. Now, going back to -- we still have you now at the

3 moment at the MUP station or at this place in Mostar. Were you then moved

4 to another location around this time?

5 A. I was not moved from that small room, but others were moved from

6 my room to other rooms. They were rearranging us.

7 Q. All right. Witness, what I'd like to do, please, to move forward,

8 you've told us earlier at the beginning of your testimony, so I'll come

9 back to it now, was it around this time that you were then moved from the

10 MUP station in Mostar to a detention facility at Ljubuski?

11 A. Can you please repeat that question again?

12 Q. Of course. Sometime after being mistreated in the way that you've

13 told us, was it around this time that you were then moved from the MUP

14 station in Mostar and taken to another camp or prison at Ljubuski?

15 A. Yes. When I came to, I was handcuffed with my left hand to

16 another person, and we were already on our way to Ljubuski.

17 Q. Do you recall approximately how many other -- well, were there

18 other prisoners on this, however it was, however you were being

19 transported -- were you on a bus or a truck, or how were you being

20 transported to Ljubuski?

21 A. It was a large-sized van seating about 15.

22 Q. And were there other prisoners with you when you regained

23 consciousness?

24 A. In addition to my cousin and these two men who were together in

25 the building where I was arrested and the lady who was sitting up front,

Page 4807

1 there was a group of journalists of Radio Mostar there.

2 Q. Do you know why the journalists from Radio Mostar were in this

3 van?

4 A. I really don't know why they were there, but there were both men

5 and women among them.

6 Q. All right. And perhaps I should make it clear. Were they

7 there -- did you understand them to be there as journalists? I mean, were

8 they there to report what was happening or were they on the van -- or in

9 the van - excuse me - as prisoners?

10 A. They were prisoners, just as I was.

11 Q. Do you know if these persons were Bosniak or Croat or other?

12 A. Among them -- it is hard to distinguish by the name and ethnic

13 background. They had names like Dragan, Zoran, but I remember Alija Lizde

14 was among them, Dzemo Hamzic, a lady called Bojana, a lady called Selma,

15 and some other lady. There was another lady, Spomenka Drljevic.

16 Q. All right. Now, did you arrive at the Ljubuski camp sometime in

17 the evening between the 13th and the 14th of May, 1993?

18 A. Yes, during that period.

19 Q. And as you were being brought into the facility around that time,

20 did you come to know or identify someone who was one of the -- either the

21 head or one of the senior officials at that facility?

22 A. When we arrived in this camp at that building, my handcuffs were

23 taken off. I could barely stand on my feet, and we were asked to spread

24 our legs and stand against a wall. At that point, I wasn't able to do so,

25 and I received a blow -- a kick in the leg. And I turned around and said

Page 4808

1 that this hurt. And as I turned around, I recognised Mr. Zdenko Prlic.

2 Q. How is it that you recognised him? Did you know him from before?

3 A. I knew him from before because he worked at a gas station in

4 Tasocici.

5 Q. Did you come to know any of the other guards at the Ljubuski

6 facility while you were being held there?

7 A. While I was there, on one -- there was one who was nicknamed

8 Struja. And the other one had no qualms about identifying himself by the

9 last name of Petrovic, and he was one of the policemen.

10 Q. The women that were in the van with you, were they kept with you

11 in the same cells, or do you know if they were taken to another part of

12 the facility?

13 A. From what I remember, they were in the same building but at the

14 top floor, same entrance, but at the top.

15 Q. Now, around the 22nd of May, 1993, if I can direct your attention

16 to that, were you taken to perform forced labour at a place called Hrasno?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And briefly tell the Chamber, please, what happened to you there?

19 A. When we arrived in the village of Hrasno, there was -- at the line

20 of separation between the HVO and -- how shall I call them -- Chetniks ...

21 Q. Go ahead. What did you do?

22 A. We were making bunkers. We were carrying rock, filling sandbags.

23 And at one point, a very strongly built man appeared. We were hungry and

24 thirsty, and I asked whether we could have something to drink. And he

25 said, Balija -- some called us balijas, others called us Turks. He said,

Page 4809

1 Now I'll give you something to drink. And then I was forcibly fed -- I

2 think it was at least half a litre of a spirit of -- some kind of brandy

3 which they poured down my throat.

4 Q. Did you become drunk?

5 A. I almost lost consciousness because I rarely ever touched alcohol.

6 Q. And what happened to you after that?

7 A. After that, in that condition, I was - I don't know - inebriated

8 or something. They brought me in front of a bunker facing the Chetnik

9 line, and they tied me to a tree. And I spent all day tied to that tree,

10 and they played with me. There was shooting coming from both sides, and I

11 spent all day there tied to a tree in a temperature close to 30 degrees

12 Celsius.

13 Q. The tree that you were tied to, was this between the HVO line and

14 the Serb line?

15 A. Yes, it was, but it was closer to the HVO bunkers, that is, the

16 positions of the Grude battalion.

17 Q. Sometime after you returned from that forced labour, on about the

18 23rd of May, 1993, were you taken to receive any medical attention?

19 A. Yes, I asked to receive some medical care.

20 Q. Where were you taken?

21 A. They took me to -- I don't know whether this was some kind of a

22 health centre or an infirmary, and Mr. Zdenko Prlic took me there.

23 Q. While you were moving around at that time, did you see anyone?

24 A. Yes. At that time, that is, when we were leaving that room, I

25 recognised Mr. Tuta Naletilic who had been visiting the camp.

Page 4810

1 Q. Can you describe for us what you saw -- when you saw him, where

2 was he, what was he doing?

3 A. At the -- he was there at the entrance to the building with a very

4 large escort. And as I was coming out and I recognised Mr. Tuta

5 Naletilic, another person took me over. This was no longer Zdenko Prlic

6 who had taken me to the examination. Another person took me over. But I

7 could see there was some kind of festive atmosphere. Everything was well

8 ordered and neat. There were a lot of Croatian flags. There were a lot

9 of people out in the streets, and this is what I remember.

10 Q. Did you learn then -- excuse me. Did you know then or did you

11 learn that on that day or around that time, that some senior Croatian

12 official had come to the area?

13 A. Later, towards the end of that day, and later on, we learned that

14 President Tudjman arrived with Hikmet Cetin, who was the foreign minister,

15 that they were at Medjurgorje on that day discussing a ceasefire.

16 Q. When you say the foreign minister just now, I don't think, for the

17 transcript, we got that name. Perhaps you can say it again.

18 A. Hikmet Cetin, C-E-T-I-N.

19 Q. When you say the foreign minister, the foreign minister of what

20 country or what government?

21 A. This is of Turkey.

22 Q. Now, going back to seeing Tuta. You said a moment ago that you

23 recognised Tuta. Had you seen him before?

24 A. Yes, I had seen him before.

25 Q. When was that?

Page 4811

1 A. This happened in late May 1992 at the Medjugorje, in the

2 headquarters of Mate Sarilja Daidza.

3 Q. How was it that you recall that you saw Tuta at this camp with

4 Daidza in May 1992? What were you doing there and what did you see, if

5 you did, or observe about Tuta being there?

6 A. In 1992?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. In 1992, I was a member -- we called it the Territorial Defence of

9 Capljina municipality, and the Croat citizens -- this was a mixed unit

10 consisting of Bosniak, of -- and Croats. The other side called it the

11 Defence Forces of the Municipality of Capljina, which was the same thing.

12 Q. And what was Daidza doing there?

13 A. Daidza was a high officer of the Croatian army, I believe, a

14 general. Late Daidza, that is.

15 Q. And do you know why Tuta was there?

16 A. I guess Mr. Mladen Naletilic, nicknamed Tuta - no offence to

17 anyone - I guess he also held some high position during that period,

18 during the aggression against the Croatian state.

19 Q. Well, Witness HH, I don't want you to guess, but can you share any

20 observations with us or information that caused you to think that?

21 A. Even the small children in Herzegovina at that time knew who

22 Mr. Tuta was, let alone me who was a member of a military unit who was at

23 the front line facing the Serb aggressors.

24 Q. Well, let me ask you if you know, if you can assist us, at that

25 time that you just said, and then later during the middle of 1993, were

Page 4812

1 you aware of any reputation of Mr. Tuta or the way he was held, in what

2 regard he was held by the Croatian community, if you know?

3 A. Excuse me. You made a big mistake. You've now taken me from 1992

4 to 1993.

5 Q. My question is both, sir. You've said to us just a moment ago in

6 answering the question, you said, "Even the small children in Herzegovina

7 at that time," I take it "at that time" you were referring to May 1992,

8 when you saw Tuta. And then I also asked you: Later, when you saw him

9 again in the middle of 1993, that you told us about a moment ago, can you

10 just tell us if you know in what regard Tuta was held by the Croat

11 community? What did you hear people say about him?

12 A. That he was the commander of the Convicts Battalion. Before that

13 he was -- that he was also the commander of the Convicts Battalion. So

14 what's new?

15 Q. All right. Let's move on to some few days after this. On the

16 27th of May, 1993, were you taken back to the Heliodrom?

17 A. Yes, with another 110 persons.

18 Q. Do you recall from where many of these other 110 prisoners were

19 from?

20 A. Sovici. Most of them came from Sovici.

21 Q. Did they tell you that you were going to be exchanged at that

22 time?

23 A. Yes. We were told that all 110 of us were to be exchanged.

24 Q. And were you exchanged?

25 A. The exchange never took place.

Page 4813

1 Q. When you were taken to the Heliodrom prison, did you come to know

2 any of the senior guards or officers there?

3 A. Come to know? No. Who am I to come to know somebody or to -- how

4 can I meet anyone unless somebody -- I mean, somebody can perhaps give me

5 some name, but I as an inmate, how can I come to know anyone?

6 Q. Witness, I probably used the wrong term, at least culturally,

7 probably. When I said "know," I didn't mean know them personally as in a

8 relationship.

9 Did you come to know the names of any of these persons?

10 A. At the entrance before the -- before the entrance into the central

11 prison of the prison, I recognised a policeman, Slavko Skender, the very

12 first day when we got into the camp.

13 Q. And I'm going to repeat my question to you again, if you can help

14 us. Did you come to know the names of any of the other guards or prison

15 officials while being held at the Heliodrom?

16 A. Yes. One of them was Ante Buhovac. He was the head of a shift in

17 the central prison.

18 Q. Anyone else?

19 A. And slightly higher ranking above him was Smiljanic. He was a

20 higher-ranking commander.

21 Q. Anyone else?

22 A. And then I think it was Praljak. I can't remember his first

23 name. Mr. Praljak, a middle-aged man, medium height.

24 Q. All right. Now --

25 A. And there was somebody who was allegedly a civilian, called

Page 4814

1 Marijanovic, and there was another one who was just a simple policeman,

2 too, and his name was Marijanovic also.

3 Q. Now, this Praljak you mentioned, just so the record is clear and

4 to avoid confusion, do you know that there was a senior Croatian army

5 officer named Slobodan Praljak?

6 A. No. That was not he. I would be a major liar if I said that that

7 was Mr. Slobodan Praljak.

8 Q. All right. It was another Praljak.

9 A. Oh, yes, definitely. Much smaller than the other one and much

10 younger too.

11 Q. Can you tell the Chamber whether these -- you've mentioned there

12 were two persons called Marijanovic. Did either of those persons or

13 perhaps both, did they have any particular reputation as to how they

14 treated the prisoners?

15 A. This gentleman who limped a little. That is how we call it. I

16 don't know what you and the others would call it. Limping slightly, a

17 civilian, I think he was the warden or the governor of that prison, and

18 his name was Marijanovic. But then again, another person also called

19 Marijanovic, who had salt and pepper hair, about 180 centimetres tall,

20 very loud and very, very noisy and throwing his weight about, was also

21 there.

22 Q. How did that man, the second man, how did he act towards the

23 prisoners?

24 A. Well, I had the opportunity to meet that gentleman who they said

25 was the governor, because I wrote a letter to the governor in May, in late

Page 4815












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Page 4816

1 May '93.

2 Q. All right. Well, tell us about this letter. What was your letter

3 about?

4 A. Because the Islamic religious holiday was drawing near, the

5 holiday of Bosniak Muslims. I wrote a letter asking that we be allowed to

6 perform our religious duty.

7 Q. For the record, what is the name of that holiday?

8 A. Bajram.

9 Q. When you say you wrote a letter to the governor, who do you mean?

10 It might not be clear. "Governor" can mean a lot of things. Who are you

11 referring to?

12 A. I think it was that civilian person who had a limp. He introduced

13 himself to me as the governor, warden, and whose surname I said was

14 Marijanovic, because that person worked there, and he was in the building

15 north of the central prison. That was the building where I went to have

16 an interview with that person.

17 Q. That's what I wanted to ask you about next. So you sent this

18 letter about observing the Muslim holiday. Did something happen as a

19 result of that letter?

20 A. The person who took me to that interview and people who received

21 me, because there were more people. There was this Mr. Praljak and that

22 gentleman who had introduced himself as the governor. And he said, Are

23 you the cleverest of all those thousands of people to assume the right to

24 write that letter to me?

25 Q. What did you say or did you respond?

Page 4817

1 A. And I said to him -- and I said to him, I'm sorry, sir. If I

2 remember well, I said simply, I've no idea whether there are hundreds or

3 thousands. I simply wrote about my wish and the wish of other people who

4 wanted to observe their religious duty. And that is why I wrote that

5 letter, not because about some information about how many of us there

6 are. I have no -- I didn't have a clue how many of us there were. I only

7 knew about us in the central prison. He was the one who said that we were

8 thousands there.

9 Q. And when you gave that response, did he say anything to you or

10 give any instructions, then, as to what should happen?

11 A. He said that I would be allowed to pray, I and those others who

12 shared the holiday with me.

13 Q. What happened next?

14 A. The Bajram. And then I left that building, which was north of the

15 central prison, and I entered through the west gate of the central

16 prison. And then in that passage, Ante Buhovac, the other Marijanovic,

17 Slavko Skender, and Smiljanovic started to beat me and said, Ha, balija,

18 you want to pray for Bajram; you want to observe Bajram.

19 Q. Did they make you take a position or assume a position that you

20 might associate with Muslim prayer?

21 A. As we were going down the stairs, when we went to the canteen,

22 there was a military mess or something downstairs because before --

23 earlier, it used to be the army building or something. I don't know. As

24 we were going down those stairs, they ordered me to take -- to assume the

25 praying position, the praying posture.

Page 4818

1 Q. Did they say anything to you? Did one of them say anything to

2 you, or more, at that time?

3 A. What they said to me -- what they said, they did to me, as those

4 at the MUP before. They wouldn't have done this to an animal. They beat

5 me for about an hour. I would rather not talk about that. I don't like

6 to remember these things.

7 Q. Witness HH, again, I'm not going to ask you in detail about what

8 happened to you, then, in the next while, but you were treated very

9 badly. Is that what you're telling us?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you see a doctor around the Heliodrom sometime after this?

12 A. I think that after that treatment, two or three days or so after

13 that, at the time of Bajram, the International Red Cross came and

14 registered us.

15 Q. I want to direct your attention, please, to about the middle of

16 June 1993. Did you see any persons coming into the Heliodrom or into the

17 central prison around that time?

18 A. In June.

19 Q. Yes, sir.

20 A. In mid-June 1993, Jusuf Prazina came. He called himself the

21 general of the army of BH. He had a dog with him. And there was

22 Mr. Naletilic, Tuta.

23 Q. And anyone else?

24 A. And Mr. Stela was there, too.

25 Q. Now, you've told us before how you knew Tuta. Can you tell the

Page 4819

1 Chamber, please, how it was that you had recognised this person called

2 "Stela," or that you identified as Stela?

3 A. To tell you the truth, I didn't really know him all that well.

4 But I knew he was a taxi driver, and everybody knew him because he used to

5 do contrepartie for exchange before the war.

6 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you to say that again. It didn't come

7 through in the translation. He used to do what before the war?

8 A. Taxi driver.

9 Q. Yes, and you mentioned a second part of your answer. And what was

10 that? You said everybody knew him because he did what --

11 A. He was one of those. Like all the taxi drivers behind the

12 department store, they dealt illegally in foreign currency.

13 Q. All right. Now, let's go back to seeing these men. Where were

14 you when you saw them, and what did you see them doing?

15 A. I was in a room at the central prison, the first room, the window

16 that faced west, and then the gentlemen entered. And as soon as they had

17 entered, as a rule, there would always be something to do, that is, some

18 kind of work assigned to us during the day, in the evening or whenever.

19 Q. Did you greet or have any conversation with any of these three men

20 that you've just identified, after they came into the building?

21 A. I don't know why I did that, but I did. I said, "Good morning,

22 General," to Juka Prazina. I said, "Sabah Hajrulah," which is the Bosnian

23 greeting, and it means "good morning."

24 Q. And did this Juka Prazina respond to you when you greeted him in

25 that way?

Page 4820

1 A. Not straight away, but later on when he was in the room with his

2 dog, he said, "Who was it who said 'Sabah Hajrulah' to me?" And I said

3 that I was the one. And he approached me and said, "What are you doing

4 here?"

5 Q. What happened after that?

6 A. He gave me cigarettes.

7 Q. Did Juka Prazina interact with anybody else, any other prisoners

8 in the room at that time?

9 A. Yes. He moved on to the adjoining larger room where there were

10 more people. But I have no idea what he did there because I stayed behind

11 in that room that I was kept in. But I know -- I heard later on that he

12 also distributed some cigarettes there too.

13 Q. Could you -- from where you were, could you see or overhear Tuta

14 having a conversation with anyone?

15 A. I couldn't see whether Mr. Tuta talked with anyone, because I

16 don't want to lie. I saw Mr. Mladen Naletilic enter the building of the

17 central prison, but Mr. Prazina entered the first room and asked me what

18 he asked me.

19 Q. All right. Now, around this time, did anyone come into the room

20 where you were being held and give any order?

21 A. Well, every day -- one had to go to work every day. I've already

22 said that. I don't want to repeat myself. And then they asked for 30

23 persons go to work somewhere.

24 Q. Well, who was it that asked, that said something to the effect of,

25 you know, "We need 30 people"?

Page 4821

1 A. Well, I can't remember right now. Buhovac was it or Marijanovic,

2 or maybe Skender, or whoever. A military policeman. He just entered the

3 room and said, "I need 30 men." If nobody volunteers, he says, "Well,

4 you, you, and you go." And you have no say in that. You have to go to

5 work. It's a camp; it's not normal life.

6 Q. Witness HH, let me ask you to go back for a moment in case the

7 record may not be clear. When you said a few minutes ago that you saw

8 this Tuta, Juka Prazina, and a person named Stela coming into the camp,

9 did they come in together as a group or what? Can you just be a bit

10 clearer about that perhaps?

11 A. Mr. Juka Prazina and Mr. Mladen Naletilic were together, but later

12 on when I came out with this group of 30 men, because I was in the first

13 room - I repeat that - and we were usually the first ones, because it is

14 more difficult for policemen to reach other rooms. So we simply had to

15 go, and we had no choice. That is when I saw Mr. Stela.

16 Q. All right. Now, you were among the 30 who were taken out.

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. You were put on a truck?

19 A. Yes, of some older date. That is what I think. It was quite an

20 old truck. It had a red cabin.

21 Q. Did you see Stela any more around that time?

22 A. As far as I can remember, because I was one of the last to board

23 it, I think that Mr. Stela sat in front next to the driver.

24 Q. Did the truck take you somewhere?

25 A. He took us to the centre, near the coffee bar which belonged to

Page 4822

1 Mr. Jadranko Topic.

2 Q. When you say the "centre," the centre of what?

3 A. Of Mostar. The centre is the centre of town, and people who live

4 and work in Mostar. I mean, I'm talking about normal people. That was

5 called the centre of the town, the town centre.

6 Q. How did you know this coffee bar was associated with the mayor of

7 Mostar at that time, Jadranko Topic?

8 A. Well, being a passionate supporter of Velez and native of Mostar,

9 who wouldn't know -- how could I not know soccer player Jadranko Topic and

10 like him very much? Because he was the best forward that there was.

11 Q. When you said, and it didn't -- I'm not sure it came completely

12 through, but you said when you support Velez - if I say that correctly,

13 and if I don't, forgive me - what were you referring to? What do you

14 mean?

15 A. That -- the soccer club. Velez is the soccer club, and we called

16 it "my sweet," "my sweetheart," "my darling."

17 Q. Was there a time when Mr. Topic was a prominent member of that

18 club?

19 A. Yes. He was a player for a long time.

20 Q. All right. Now, after you got to the coffee bar, you arrived

21 there, did all the prisoners who were on the truck stay together or were

22 you divide up in some way?

23 A. There they singled out a group which went with Mr. Stela. That is

24 about ten men or so went with Mr. Stela.

25 Q. Can you tell the Chamber how it was that these ten prisoners were

Page 4823

1 selected to go with Stela? Who selected them?

2 A. Mr. Stela himself.

3 Q. Do you know where these -- well, did they leave then?

4 A. What else do you do?

5 Q. Did you see these men that went with Stela, did you see them come

6 back to the Heliodrom that night?

7 A. In that -- of those ten men who left, I know that one is still

8 alive. As for the others, I never saw them or heard from them again.

9 Q. The others of you, apart from the ten, what happened to you?

10 A. We then -- then they took us in that truck towards Dzubrani.

11 Q. And what did you do there?

12 A. We worked there.

13 Q. All right. Is that -- just for the record, is that a village, a

14 small town near Mostar?

15 A. It's not a small town. It's not a village. It is rather a plot

16 or highland north-west of the town.

17 Q. All right. And after you performed this work, were you taken back

18 to the Heliodrom again?

19 A. I returned to the Heliodrom the next morning.

20 Q. Now, let me direct your attention, please to about the 30th of

21 June 1993, until about the middle of that month, July 1993, excuse me,

22 that month, the next month being July, excuse me, you were at the

23 Heliodrom through that time and that's where you were being kept?

24 A. Maybe I was.

25 Q. Well, did you -- can you tell the Chamber, did you see any other

Page 4824

1 army formations or military groups who were being based or stationed at

2 the Heliodrom during this period?

3 A. After the BH army took the area of the north camp in Bijelo Polje,

4 the situation in the camp changed drastically.

5 Q. What happened?

6 A. For the worse. For the worse.

7 Q. Well, how so?

8 A. After those events, after the BH army took Bijelo Polje and

9 Sjeverni Logor at the north camp, there was more torture. We were beaten,

10 forced even more to do more hard labour.

11 Q. Let me direct your attention to a particular part of that perhaps,

12 going back to the question I asked you a moment ago, did you see any army

13 formations, military formations at the Heliodrom at that time, after the

14 30th of June, that you had not seen before?

15 A. Yes, it happened more or less -- I'm not quite sure. But it

16 happened around the 12th or the 13th of June. Perhaps a day or two before

17 that.

18 Q. June or July?

19 A. You asked me June or July. But I'm sorry, I can't hear well the

20 interpretation.

21 Q. If I understand you well, and you said something about you think

22 it happened around the 12th or 13th of June. But I had asked you a few

23 moments ago, and you were talking about a time period between the 30th of

24 June and the middle of July. So I'm just trying -- are you talking about

25 June or July now?

Page 4825

1 A. I'm talking about July, after the fall of Bijelo Polje and the

2 north camp. Maybe there was a miscommunication.

3 Q. Please, go forward, then. What did you see about any military

4 formations -- excuse me, Mr. Witness.

5 Can you hear me?

6 A. It's too loud now.

7 Q. Hello? Can you hear me now? How's that?

8 A. It's fine now, yeah.

9 Q. Now, Witness, what I have been asking you about is around that

10 time, did you see any military formations come into the Heliodrom that had

11 not been there before?

12 A. Yes. I have to repeat this because it's very important. After

13 the fall of the north camp and Bijelo Polje, that is, after the takeover

14 of the ABiH, the situation changed. And I apologise for repeating

15 myself. But in the room where I was, some persons in that room who were

16 elderly even had beds there.

17 Q. What happened about them? What happened to these elderly people?

18 A. After that event in late June, they took away even those beds.

19 One day, we had to put -- assemble those beds in the former hangars which

20 were to the south of the central prison. And we not only mounted those

21 beds but some other beds, too, which they had brought.

22 Q. Well, first off, you said "we". You said we ... We had to put --

23 A. We, the prisoners.

24 Q. Did you have an understanding as to who you were assembling these

25 beds for?

Page 4826












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4827

1 A. This was in the period between the 10th and 13th of July. We were

2 assembling them for the Croatian army which kept arriving at Heliodrom.

3 Q. Did you have any other involvement, or were you required to do

4 other things for these units of the Croatian army around this time?

5 A. On one -- I remember one of these days very vividly. I was

6 designated to go with an older man to clean a building which was right

7 next to the central prison building.

8 Q. What did you see there?

9 A. In that building, when we entered it, there was a huge room which

10 we were -- which we were cleaning, and it was filled with military maps.

11 Q. Could you see anything on these maps? Were there markings on the

12 maps?

13 A. Yes. As a member of the HVO and ABiH units, I knew maps. I saw

14 little pins which showed artillery placements and positions of troops. So

15 I was able to look at it because there was nobody in that room where we

16 were cleaning.

17 Q. Were you able to identify any unit names on this map?

18 A. On this map, you could see clearly that the 114th Split Brigade

19 was there.

20 Q. Did you know of what army the 114th Brigade was a part of?

21 A. Geographically, Split is in Croatia.

22 Q. Did you see any other unit names on this map or in the room?

23 A. Before the arrival of these troops and the assembling of these

24 beds, the Knez Branimir Brigade from Citluk was there. They were members

25 of the HVO. After the event, after we had assembled those beds, we saw

Page 4828

1 that something terrible was being readied because mortars were on the

2 field right opposite the building where we were.

3 Q. Let me go back. Around this time, let me direct your attention to

4 another event. Witness HH, I would like to try to move us forward a bit

5 before we break for lunch. Around this same general time, in the

6 beginning of July, did you see some senior officials come to the

7 Heliodrom?

8 A. After these events, and a terrible attack of the HVO and the HV

9 against the western side of Mostar, one night, I, myself - and not just

10 me, others, too - could sort of -- stealthily, when we would go to the

11 toilet, we could overhear a TV programme called "Slikom Na Sliku", or

12 "Image to Image".

13 Q. Well, Witness HH, I'm not sure now, frankly, if you're referring

14 to the same event or something you saw on TV. So I'll have to ask you to

15 assist me.

16 Did you see some officials themselves come to the camp, or are you

17 telling us about something you saw on TV? Are you talking about two

18 different things?

19 A. That was the event that preceded the event that you are asking me

20 to relate -- to tell you about.

21 Q. Please go forward, then. Tell us.

22 A. This happened immediately after the action which followed by

23 several days, and I guess that we can only assume that this was because of

24 some international pressure because the Croatian army was entering

25 Herzegovina for a day or two. And if they got the job done, they would

Page 4829

1 pull back quickly. So they did not stay there forever.

2 Q. You mentioned earlier that there was someone named -- apart from

3 the head of the Heliodrom camp, but there was another person named

4 Slobodan Praljak. Did you see this Slobodan Praljak around the Heliodrom

5 around this time?

6 A. Immediately after these events and all that, it wasn't only

7 Slobodan Praljak who came to the Heliodrom but some representatives of the

8 Bosniak people and PZ party were present. Mr. Pasic is the last name. I

9 don't recall his first name. Ismet Hadziosmanovic, and Armin Pohara. And

10 Jadranko Prlic, Mate Boban, and Slobodan Praljak were present on the

11 Croatian side. And hundreds of journalists also were there. Well,

12 perhaps it's too much to say hundreds, but there were a lot of journalists

13 there.

14 Q. Did you have an understanding of why this large party was at the

15 Heliodrom at that time?

16 A. The only thing that we were in a position to know was a day or two

17 before that visit, there was a lot of cleaning up. And I would say that

18 it was all cosmetic, clean up of us and the camp itself.

19 Q. You say the cleanup included you, or you said "us", were you given

20 some new clothes to wear?

21 A. Yes. They gave us some white T-shirts so that we could look more

22 presentable when these gentlemen arrived.

23 Q. Now, Witness HH, I'm looking back at the transcript, and some of

24 the names you mentioned a moment ago have not come through. So I want to

25 see if you can assist us further. Is one of the persons that you saw --

Page 4830

1 did you see a man named Mate Boban there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you see a man named Jadranko Prlic there?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who did you understand those two individuals to be, or their

6 positions in some organisation or party or government-type structure?

7 A. The late Mr. Mate Boban was at that time president of

8 Herceg-Bosna.

9 Q. Who was Mr. Prlic?

10 A. He also held some high position in the government of Herceg-Bosna.

11 Q. You also said that there was someone there by the name of Ismet

12 Hadziosmanovic?

13 A. Yes. The former president of the SDA for the Herzegovina region.

14 Q. Did you know at that time that this Mr. Hadziosmanovic was

15 associated with some Muslim political party, or Bosniak?

16 A. He at that time was -- he quickly changed colour, and he likes to

17 do that. He crossed over to Fikret Abdic's party, which along with Armin

18 Pohara.

19 Q. Do you recall the name of that party?

20 A. MDZ. That would be the Muslim Democratic Union.

21 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, if you know, what was the policy or the

22 attitude of that party toward the HVO?

23 A. The party was established sometime in late March of 1993. And

24 Mr. Jadranko Topic in the hall at the party inauguration spoke there as a

25 guest.

Page 4831

1 Q. All right. Let me direct your attention to the night of the 13th

2 of July, 1993. Were you taken someplace to collect dead bodies?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Where was that?

5 A. That was in the area of Rasica and Nevesinje and Dubrovnik, on the

6 Bada and the Nada side, as it was popularly known.

7 Q. I'm sure this is obvious to you, but so that we're clear, was this

8 on the Croatian side, the State of Croatia side, or were you still in

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. What do you mean on the Croatian side or on the Bosnian side?

11 Q. Well, the places you've just told us about, you mentioned, if I

12 heard you correctly, and --

13 A. Oh, I see. The location. The Bada and Nada is the area towards

14 the vineyards belonging to Hepok and other companies.

15 Q. Well, if I heard correctly a moment ago -- maybe I misheard you,

16 and if I did, it's my mistake, I think you said Dubrovnik.

17 A. Yes. That is -- that was the main road leading there to

18 Dubrovnik. This is the main road, Sarajevo-Mostar-Dubrovnik highway, and

19 then this road branches off and goes in the direction of Nevesinje.

20 Q. All right. I'll come back to that in a moment. At this location

21 then, were you and other prisoners required to collect the bodies of dead

22 soldiers?

23 A. On the -- on the night of the 13th and 14th, we were there. I

24 cannot recall the names of those persons. I've been trying to recall the

25 names, but I can't. I believe that perhaps one of them was called Begic.

Page 4832

1 He was from Sovici. And they gave us some kind of thick wire which we

2 were supposed to twist to make it like a hook.

3 Q. What were you -- excuse me. What were you supposed to do with the

4 hook?

5 A. We were supposed, in the area between the two lines - and we were

6 on the HVO line that -- and the HV was there - we were supposed to use

7 that hook to pull out bodies of dead soldiers.

8 Q. All right. Let me go back with that additional information in

9 mind, just to be clear. So this location where you were taken, on the

10 road going to Dubrovnik, were you, at that location, do you know, were you

11 still at that point in Bosnia-Herzegovina or had you crossed over into

12 Croatia?

13 A. Sir, I think we have a serious misunderstanding here. This was

14 the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That is just outside of the city

15 of Mostar. That's no State of Croatia.

16 Q. You've answered my question, sir. You said you were on the road,

17 somewhere along the road, and my question was to understand where you were

18 along that road. So it was on the road to Dubrovnik but not far from

19 Mostar, is that what you're telling us?

20 A. Yes. Just outside of Mostar.

21 Q. All right. Now, were you given any particular instructions how to

22 recover those bodies or which bodies you should recover?

23 A. We were strictly told to pull out troops who had very special type

24 of boots, very light. It is more like a western style footwear that only

25 members of the Croatian army had, and you did not find such type of boots

Page 4833

1 with the HVO or the ABiH. This is what we were told were the identifying

2 marks, and it was at the cost of death that we were supposed to pull out

3 those bodies.

4 Q. All right. Now, I'm moving from that, Witness, just to avoid any

5 confusion. Around this time, apart from that, were you also used to

6 perform any labour at other places around Mostar?

7 A. I went to different locations. One of them was the Bulevar, a

8 bank behind the HIT. I mentioned Dzubrani already. I worked in putting a

9 bridge across the Neretva River at the confluence of the Buna River.

10 Q. Let me ask you this, because I think it's come up before and I'm

11 not sure whether there's been enough evidence provided to the Chamber

12 about this: When you say a location in Mostar called the HIT, H-I-T, what

13 is that or was that at the time?

14 A. HIT, before the war, was a department store.

15 Q. Did you come to know, during this time that you were taken to

16 these various places around Mostar, the HVO units that were associated or

17 responsible for certain locations?

18 A. In the area behind the convent which was by the Radobolja [phoen]

19 River, there was a park overlooking the Bulevar going to the north, and

20 this is where I worked. And soldiers were talking among themselves. I

21 knew some of them even. And they said that they were a unit belonging to

22 Dika Slezak.

23 Q. Were you ever at or did you come to know a unit that was at the

24 confrontation line at a place called the Health Centre?

25 A. What I learned and found out while I was working there - and I

Page 4834

1 worked for a long time - is that they were coming there frequently. And

2 there was another unit called Mrmak.

3 Q. And did you associate this unit Mrmak with anyone that you knew or

4 had seen before as its commanding officer?

5 A. The commander of that unit was Mr. Stela.

6 Q. I'm going to direct your attention to again around -- I'm still

7 around the middle of July 1993. Were you again taken with approximately

8 30 other prisoners from the Heliodrom to a part of Mostar?

9 A. I was taken with about 30 men to the Rondo, about a half or -- I

10 mean, I think that this may have been in the middle or just in the last

11 half of July. We had to work every day.

12 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm looking at the clock, and I see

13 it's a bit before 1.00, but I'm about to get into what -- either the last

14 or next to last topic of my outline, and I can tell by looking at it that

15 it's very unlikely, unfortunately, and I really had hoped very much that

16 we could complete at least the direct examination today, but I can see I

17 cannot do that before 1.00, and I will get very -- a short way into this

18 topic, and I'm going to ask for the Chamber's indulgence if we can just

19 end at this point.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, there are still some administrative matters I

21 would like to mention at this moment. If you -- I wonder whether you

22 could finish it somewhere here or ...

23 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I think maybe if you have some

24 administrative matters you may be able to finish, perhaps that's a good

25 use of the time. I don't think -- the Chamber has been able to observe

Page 4835

1 the witness, and just I don't think we will can conclude it in the next

2 couple of minutes.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Well, this Trial Chamber was just informed by

4 Madam Registrar that we will not be able to sit for tomorrow, I mean

5 tomorrow for the whole day. Now we have got a difficult question which

6 will be put to both parties.

7 On the one hand, we made an extraordinary effort to the request

8 from Mr. Seric for a few hours this afternoon to observe the religious

9 activities. On the other hand, now we have a witness unfinished. We will

10 be very reluctant to let the witness spend a long weekend under the oath.

11 So at this moment, I would like to ask the Defence counsel: How long will

12 your cross-examination last? And another question is whether we could sit

13 at 5.00 this afternoon for 90 minutes.

14 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we can have a minute

16 to consult here.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we're a bit surprised,

21 because we thought that we had resolved this this morning. I said that we

22 would be finished by 1.00 tomorrow. Did I understand you correctly to

23 have said that actually we're not going to sit tomorrow morning?

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes. And we were just informed about that.

25 Yes, Mr. Scott.

Page 4836

1 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, while counsel are discussing, maybe I

2 can just -- perhaps this is what the Chamber has in mind. But if we were

3 able to do something along those lines, and perhaps if we could go a bit

4 longer now, I could at least finish the direct examination. It seems to

5 me that there could still be a break to allow defence counsel to have

6 their religious observances, which I fully support. And perhaps along the

7 lines that the Chamber has just suggested, then we could still finish the

8 cross-examination later today.

9 I'm not sure that's exactly what you were thinking about, but

10 perhaps something like that would work.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I would like to hear the response from

12 Mr. Krsnik.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due respect, we

14 will comply with every ruling. But I believe that we will be unable to

15 finish the cross-examination in 90 minutes. If we had a full morning,

16 this is what we were counting on. Then we would have three hours, and I

17 am afraid that we may not be able to finish it in an hour and a half.

18 But we will comply with any ruling that you make, and we will

19 accept it. We will accept anything you say.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

21 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just a thought:

22 Perhaps if we had half an hour break -- perhaps, if we -- perhaps if we

23 were given half an hour extra, so let's say a two-hour break, and then we

24 reconvene and we just keep going until we're done tonight.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 4837












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4838

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, as I understand, you are saying that

2 we could start at 3.00. Is that true?

3 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Mr. President. This

4 was just a thought that I had, an idea. We have an extra-long break, and

5 then we start at 3.00 and we keep going.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections?

7 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour, that's fine.

8 JUDGE LIU: So we'll adjourn until 3.00 this afternoon.

9 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.03 p.m.

















Page 4839

1 --- On resuming at 3.00 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, today we might sit a little bit longer than

3 usual, because we have to finish with this witness today.

4 Yes, Mr. Scott.

5 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. Witness HH, let me go back for one moment to one thing that we

7 were talking about before the lunch break. When you were taken to this

8 place on the Mostar-Dubrovnik road to pick up -- collect these bodies, can

9 you tell the Chamber, were you acting under the orders and supervision of

10 HV soldiers when you were carrying out that task or HVO or, I suppose,

11 both?

12 A. Both together.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come a little bit

14 closer to the microphone.


16 Q. Witness, it may assist if you can move, scoot yourself a bit

17 closer into the desk if you have room, please. Thank you.

18 All right. Now, going forward, I had asked you, directing your

19 attention to about the middle of July again, roughly speaking, 1993,

20 whether you recall being taken by a truck again from the Heliodrom to a

21 place called the Rondo in Mostar. Do you remember that?

22 A. I do, yes.

23 Q. And how many of you prisoners were taken on the truck at that

24 time? Approximately.

25 A. Well, if we went towards the town or somewhere, there would be

Page 4840

1 always around 30 men. And then they would distribute us along the front

2 line or wherever, as many as they needed. But we were never -- we were

3 always around 30 when we would start off.

4 Q. And do you recall that on that day or around that time, in fact,

5 you were taken to a place around the Rondo in Mostar?

6 A. That day we were taken there and then they assigned us for the

7 first time. That looked like a rather special procedure to me at that

8 time. We were about ten in that group who stayed there, and we had

9 arrived from the west, moving towards the infirmary building, and then

10 they started to mix us up with the HVO members.

11 Q. All right. Well, before we get to that, you've told us that you

12 were taken to an area around the Rondo, and are you saying that a group --

13 out of the 30, ten of you were left at the Rondo location?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Under whose supervision? Who was guarding you or supervising this

16 operation, if I can use that term?

17 A. Up to the place where we were to go, well, it depended on the unit

18 which came. And I'm not all that omnipotent to know. I'm saying what I

19 know. But we were brought there, and I'm saying that it took me by

20 surprise because it was the first time in the camp that it happened to us,

21 that they practically mixed us, one HVO man, one inmate, one HVO man, one

22 inmate, and so on. And we were to go towards Kantarevac.

23 Q. All right. When the ten of you were grouped in this fashion with

24 HVO soldiers, were you somewhere or did you proceed down a street called

25 Liska Street?

Page 4841

1 A. Well, whatever you care to call the street, Liska, but we crossed

2 the street from the infirmary moving westward to the left -- and we

3 practically entered -- well, some people call it Liska Park. Others call

4 it Shahid cemetery. We, the Bosniaks, call it the Shahid cemetery.

5 Q. That term that you just now mentioned, the Bosniak name, what does

6 that mean? Does that have some significance?

7 A. Well, it would take a long time to explain it, but I'll try to do

8 it as briefly as possible. These are some men, Bosniaks, who died before

9 the First World War or after -- or during World War I and who are buried

10 there. They are mostly Bosniak Muslims. And then following the changes

11 after World War II, when the communist authority was established, and the

12 territory Bosnia-Herzegovina and Yugoslavia, those Shahid simply

13 disappeared because they were doing whatever they liked. And it did not

14 apply only to Islamic or Bosniak cemeteries; it also included Catholic

15 houses of worship and Catholic cemeteries.

16 Q. All right. We'll come back to the cemetery in just a moment. Do

17 you remember the names of any of the other prisoners that were with you

18 that day?

19 A. I know that first one, the one in front of me was -- well, it was

20 Zikret Karso, who was still alive at that time. Hasan Cevra was behind

21 me. Arfan Torlo, and Remzo Sabljic. I didn't know others because before

22 that, many people had arrived from Central Bosnia and all other parts of

23 Herzegovina, so that I didn't know any other men in that group apart from

24 those four.

25 Q. All right. Now, among those -- and it didn't come through on the

Page 4842

1 transcript. But was one of the four that you just named, was that Zikret

2 Karso?

3 A. That's right. I think I mentioned him first.

4 Q. All right. When you were arranged in this fashion with sort of an

5 alternating prisoner and then an HVO soldier and then another prisoner and

6 so on, were you told -- did the HVO -- did your guards or keepers, people

7 who were watching you, did they explain to you at all why they were

8 arranging you in that fashion?

9 A. There was mention that the front line was nearby, and that for

10 security reasons, we had to be mixed together so that the balija side

11 wouldn't fire at us, something like snipers or something like that.

12 Q. All right. Now, when you walked down toward this Bosniak

13 cemetery, can you just tell us what happened after that? While that was

14 happening, what happened?

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

16 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours. At this time I have an

17 objection to this testimony, and I would request that the witness be

18 requested to take his headphones off so that he cannot hear my objection.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think that's quite an extraordinary request.

20 Let me hear the response from the Prosecutor.

21 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I do think it's very unusual. We

22 certainly don't normally do business this way. I defer to the Chamber's

23 view.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, I've already told you that in my practice in the

25 past, we never have come across this kind of issue, which means that you

Page 4843

1 make objections, and the witness will not have their headphones on their

2 head. But since you insist this is an important question, we may make an

3 exception on that issue.

4 Let me hear what you are going to object at this stage.

5 MR. MEEK: Your Honours --

6 JUDGE LIU: Hold on for a minute.

7 Usher, would you please take off the headphones from this

8 witness.

9 You may proceed, Mr. Meek.

10 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. The Prosecutor

11 is about to question this witness which will require responses and answers

12 which will, in my opinion from reading the statements -- the statement

13 that we received in English, only one, that would indicate a prior or a

14 bad act or crime that this witness would state that my client,

15 Mr. Naletilic, committed. This is a crime that has never been alleged in

16 this indictment. It is upon a person who would be or fall under the

17 protected persons status. Since it has not been alleged in the

18 indictment, it is not only irrelevant, but the introduction of the

19 evidence would prejudice these proceedings and prejudice a fair trial for

20 Mr. Naletilic.

21 I submit, Your Honours, that if the Prosecution believed what this

22 witness -- or what they want this witness to now testify to before this

23 Chamber, that they would have alleged this in the indictment. It will be,

24 if this Trial Chamber hears this evidence which is outside the scope of

25 this indictment, wholly and fully prejudicial to these proceedings and

Page 4844

1 against Mr. Naletilic. It is completely unfair, there is no probative

2 value in the evidence that they want to elicit, and I am asking that any

3 line of questioning concerning this individual by the name of Karso,

4 Zikret Karso, be denied because it falls outside the scope of this

5 indictment, Your Honours. And if you want me to be more specific, I will

6 be happy to be more specific.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, up to now, we don't know where the Prosecutor is

8 leading us to, and I guess your objection is entirely based on your

9 speculation. We might hear from the Prosecutor for the reason of asking

10 this question.

11 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, what we intend to ask about now is in

12 fact in the statement that was disclosed to the Defence a long time ago.

13 It is true that is not -- there is one particular aspect of this incident

14 that is not charged as a crime, but I do not believe it is a standard of

15 the admissible evidence at trial as to only those things specifically pled

16 in the indictment. It's true as to this -- what you would hear about,

17 it's true that it's not charged in the indictment, but -- and we're not

18 suggesting that he should be. We're not suggesting to amend the

19 indictment. We're not suggesting that Mr. Naletilic would somehow be

20 convicted for this crime not in the indictment.

21 I think perhaps counsel is raising the shadows of the Kupreskic

22 decision or something. I'm not sure what he's driving at. This is not

23 like that at all. There's no attempt here to substitute some new charge

24 not in the indictment for what -- something in the indictment. It's

25 simply a matter of evidence.

Page 4845

1 JUDGE LIU: At least you have to show us some relevance to the

2 indictment.

3 MR. SCOTT: The relevance to the indictment -- I agree, Your

4 Honour. The relevance to the indictment -- well, let me just make an

5 offer of proof so there's no mystery about this, without the witness being

6 able to hear, although he knows full well the story. It's his story not

7 mine.

8 What this witness would testify, Your Honours, that on this

9 occasion when being taken down -- being led down this street in the

10 direction of the Bulevar and the health centre -- excuse me.

11 JUDGE CLARK: I don't think you can tell us what is being objected

12 to. What the Judge asked you is to tell us the relevance of the evidence

13 but not to actually tell us what it is, because what Mr. Meek is saying is

14 it is so prejudicial, you see, that it may affect, and one never knows.

15 MR. SCOTT: I guess that's always the problem with a Bench trial,

16 Your Honours. You're both the finders of fact and the umpires, and I

17 understand that.

18 The relevance would be to show, number one, Mr. Naletilic's

19 presence in an area that's clearly key to this indictment, that he was

20 with HVO soldiers at this location, that he was -- and that there was a

21 certain altercation with some of the Muslim -- Muslim prisoners at that

22 time.

23 Now, it's possible that only parts of this story could be told. I

24 have in mind that Mr. Meek would find one particular aspect of it most

25 objectionable, and I suppose we can tell part of the story without telling

Page 4846

1 the whole story. But again, it is a bit difficult to have this dialogue,

2 Mr. President, without going into what the evidence is.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE LIU: After consultations among the Judges, we would like to

5 say that we would like to hear in a very limited way of the testimony of

6 this witness of your question, just concentrate on the knowledge of the

7 accused of that practice.

8 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Very well. Very well, Your

9 Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

11 Usher, you may put the earphone on this witness.


13 Q. All right. Witness HH, I want to take this series of next

14 questions in rather small pieces, so if you can confine your answers to a

15 short piece of information at a time rather than give a full narrative

16 answer. Do you understand what I'm saying?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In other words, don't tell me what you know to be or you believe

19 to be the full story all at one time, but let me ask you one question at a

20 time. Okay?

21 A. Don't I have a right to ask some questions?

22 Q. Not at this particular moment. I'm sure the Judges... All

23 right.

24 A. No. I merely want to say that it's not right to talk about

25 something if it is about something that is all that important for all of

Page 4847

1 us here, and that I'm the only one who is not kept abreast of what is

2 being discussed. Everybody else seems to be and to know what it is.

3 JUDGE LIU: It is our job to judge what is important and what is

4 not. You just answer the question put to you by the Prosecutor.


6 Q. Witness HH --

7 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, if you will allow me.

8 Q. Witness HH, what was discussed was simply a legal matter. It

9 doesn't reflect on you as a witness. It was simply a legal matter that

10 the lawyers and the Judges needed to discuss, if that's acceptable.

11 A. All right. I'll believe you.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 Witness HH, you were being led down this street arranged in the

14 way you've told us. Now, as you were proceeding down this street -- and

15 depending on how the testimony goes, I may give you a map in a few moments

16 and you can be a bit more precise. But again, we'll take it one step at a

17 time. As you were proceeding down this street, did you see someone

18 approaching from the other direction, someone that you recognised from

19 before?

20 A. At the very entrance into the Shahid cemetery, we had crossed the

21 street from the infirmary, crossed the Shahid cemetery itself, and

22 Mr. Naletilic, Tuta, with his escort came towards us.

23 Q. Now, this man -- as that's happening, did this man Karso see

24 something in this Bosniak cemetery that disturbed him or somehow caught

25 his attention?

Page 4848












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4849

1 A. He had stepped aside whilst we were in the Shahid cemetery and

2 said, How can it be --

3 Q. Excuse me.

4 MR. SCOTT: Hello, can you hear it now?

5 [Technical problem]

6 JUDGE LIU: I'm sorry about that technical problem. You may

7 proceed, Mr. Scott.

8 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Q. Our apologies, Witness HH, for that interruption. Let me rephrase

10 the question because as you started giving your answer, you may have

11 misunderstood me. Did Mr. Karso around this time see something in the

12 cemetery that disturbed him or caught his attention?

13 A. He saw something that caught his attention. It was mixed, fresh

14 graves of the first war, as they say in Mostar, people who were killed in

15 the battlefield when fighting Serbs. And they were all mixed there

16 regardless of religion or ethnic origin. There were even some crosses in

17 that cemetery.

18 Q. Did you observe -- did Mr. Karso have some reaction to that at the

19 time, on seeing that?

20 A. Well, he stepped out of the line, zigzag line, this column that we

21 had, and he took a step aside.

22 Q. All right. Now, you said a moment ago that about the time this

23 was happening --

24 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, there were basically two things

25 happening at the same time. That's the reason it makes it a bit difficult

Page 4850

1 to describe.

2 Q. What Mr. Karso did in reaction to seeing these crosses in the

3 cemetery, were you able to see whether Tuta saw his reaction to that?

4 A. Mr. Mladen Naletilic and Karso was ahead of me, and then there was

5 an HVO soldier, and he saw -- and the others also saw -- that Mr. Karso

6 stepped out of this line, out of this column.

7 Q. All right, then. What happened next?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

9 MR. MEEK: Your Honours. Mr. President, Your Honours. The Trial

10 Chamber wanted to hear limitedly about Mr. Naletilic. I think that the

11 Prosecutor has now shown that Mr. Naletilic, if this witness is to be

12 believed, and that's up to Your Honours, of course, that Mr. Naletilic was

13 in this certain area of town, that he was in the -- present on that day.

14 The question that's now being proposed, "What happened next," with

15 this witness, is going to come out. My objection will be irrelevant.

16 It's -- my objection is to what happened next goes to the fact it's never

17 been alleged in the indictment, we've never been put on notice that we

18 would have to defend against these type of charges, it's highly

19 prejudicial, there's no probative value, and it shakes the very

20 foundations of this Honourable Trial Chamber and my client's right to a

21 fair and just trial.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, I know that both you and Mr. Scott, as well as

23 the witness, of course your client, all know about what happened next.

24 The only person or persons that don't know about what happened is us. So

25 at this moment, we would like to hear what happened next.

Page 4851

1 Of course, when we evaluate all that evidence, and we will make

2 the proper decision. Thank you.

3 Mr. Scott --

4 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honours, but --

5 JUDGE LIU: -- you may proceed.


7 Q. All right. Let me rephrase my question, Witness. Not -- let me

8 ask you -- let me ask you not what happened next but, again as I said to

9 you a moment ago, let's take it in a bit smaller steps.

10 Was there, then, after Tuta had seen Karso's reaction, was there

11 an exchange? Was there an altercation between the two of them? Did they

12 have words, Mr. Karso and Mr. Tuta?

13 A. Mr. Karso was taller than I am, at least by 10 centimetres. He

14 was a tall and well-built man, and he was someplace from Central Bosnia,

15 either Zepce or Zavidovici.

16 Q. Listen to my question.

17 JUDGE CLARK: I honestly think -- it's all right. Mr. Scott, I

18 know this is difficult for everybody, but if we are going to hear some

19 evidence that is clearly outside of the indictment, that shouldn't happen,

20 because obviously it could, it could have prejudicial effect. But if

21 you're continuing with this evidence, because obviously this is an

22 important witness, to show us that Mr. Naletilic had knowledge of the use

23 to which some of the prisoners were put when their lives were in danger,

24 obviously that's what we're talking about. But if there's a particular

25 unpleasant incident that is peculiar to the facts of that particular

Page 4852

1 incident and outside the scope of the indictment, obviously you have to

2 explain to your witness that we can't hear about it.

3 MR. SCOTT: Judge Clark, I completely agree, and I was trying to

4 do that, and perhaps not as well as I could. But let me --

5 Q. Witness, that's why I rephrased my question. I don't want you to

6 tell us the whole -- you know what happened in these next few minutes in

7 time, what happened at that time. I don't want you to tell us that at the

8 moment. And again, Witness, we're dealing with legal issues here, and you

9 should not be put off by that, but simply listen to the questions and

10 listen to the counsel given by the Chamber.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

12 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, maybe we could shorten

13 this up. For the purposes of this witness, right now his testimony, we

14 will stipulate that he will testify, not that it's true, but that he will

15 testify that he saw Mr. Naletilic that day, that Mr. Naletilic then came

16 across the street and spoke with Karso. That's the limited amount. If

17 this witness is asked any other question, then the prejudice is going to

18 be the -- the toothpaste will be out of the tube and we will not be able

19 to put it back in ever, ever, ever.

20 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I think there there is one or two

21 questions that can in fact could be asked short of the concern that

22 Judge Clark has raised. Not only -- the issue is not only that Tuta was

23 seen at this location, which I agree he has if the Chamber accepts the

24 witness's testimony to this moment he has already indicated, but there is

25 one step further, short of what, I think, Mr. Meek is most concerned

Page 4853

1 about, and that is the one additional question I may put to the witness.

2 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, but just to remember that we have

3 warned you several times on this very issue.

4 MR. SCOTT: I understand that.

5 MR. MEEK: And I would not, for the record, object if Mr. Scott

6 put a leading question to this witness that he could answer yes or no,

7 because Mr. Scott knows what's going on here.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, if you could go only with the

9 prisoners at this stage, I think that will be all right.

10 MR. SCOTT: I apologise, Mr. President. I don't understand your

11 comment.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, you know what we want to know is about the

13 knowledge of Mr. Naletilic of those -- what happened with those

14 prisoners.

15 MR. SCOTT: I understand, Mr. President. I think I do

16 understand. Let me proceed gingerly along those lines and with the

17 counsel's and Chamber's concerns in mind.

18 Q. Witness HH, and again please just answer only the question I put

19 to you. Did Tuta come over and then say something to Karso, something

20 along the lines of, "What are you looking at?" in reaction to Karso's

21 reaction to seeing the crosses in the cemetery?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How close -- during the time that Tuta and Mr. Karso were having

24 this exchange, how close was Tuta to the group of prisoners, you,

25 Mr. Karso, and the others approximately?

Page 4854

1 A. Approximately a few steps away.

2 Q. As far as you can observe, was there anything blocking or

3 obstructing Tuta from seeing what was being done with you, the prisoners,

4 that you were assembled in this way intermixed with the HVO soldiers being

5 taken towards the confrontation line?

6 A. The question actually is so long that I wouldn't mind if you

7 repeated it.

8 Q. I'll try. As far as you can tell by what you know of the scene

9 and how close Tuta was to this group, could he see what was happening at

10 that time?

11 A. What he could have seen? I do not fully understand the question.

12 Q. This is during daylight, sir? This is during the day?

13 A. Of course it was during daytime. It was in the morning, bright

14 daylight.

15 Q. And you're saying to us -- you're saying to the Chamber that

16 Mr. Tuta was basically one step away, one, you know, normal step away from

17 approximately where you and Mr. Karso were standing. Is that right?

18 A. Yes, he was one or up to two steps away from Mr. Karso, which

19 means three or four away from me.

20 Q. All right. At the time that this exchange took place between Tuta

21 and Mr. Karso, were you, the prisoners, still arranged in this same

22 fashion intermixed in with the -- in an alternating way with the HVO

23 soldiers? Is that still the way you were arranged at that moment?

24 A. This happened so fast, of course. At the moment when Mr. Tuta

25 approached Mr. Karso, of course, the column halted at one point.

Page 4855

1 Q. All right. Very good.

2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm not going to pursue it further than

3 that.

4 I will ask that the witness be shown now Exhibit P12, if you have

5 a clean version of that. If you don't, I have one. He may need to look

6 at it himself, first. Thank you.

7 Q. Witness HH, I want you to look at this street diagram,

8 Exhibit P12. I guess at this point it's actually PP12 that's been put in

9 front of you and just orient yourself for a moment.

10 So the Trial Chamber can see what you're referring to, you can put

11 it on the ELMO momentarily, but then I'll probably ask that it be given

12 back to the witness.

13 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Usher, if we could.

14 Q. Do you see that, Witness HH? You see that exhibit, and do you

15 generally see what it is?

16 A. I see it.

17 MR. SCOTT: If it could be handed back to the witness, please,

18 Mr. Usher. What I would like you to do, if a marker could be provided to

19 the witness, please.

20 Q. Could you show us the approximate location when you were first

21 dropped off the truck -- you said at first, there were 30 of you, and some

22 10 of you were separated and dropped at a particular location. Can you,

23 first of all, mark the location where you were let off the truck.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. All right. Could I ask you to -- I don't know if that's an

Page 4856

1 attempt to be a 1 or just a dash. But can you mark that with a number

2 "1," please.

3 A. With marker or with something else?

4 Q. The marker is fine.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Now, will you next look at it, please, will you look at it again

7 and can you take the marker again, and perhaps by a dotted line, show the

8 approximate route you took from that location. And go ahead and just take

9 it, just complete your marks until you get to the point where you believe

10 approximately this -- the time when you saw Tuta.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. If we can see what you've done, please. All right.

13 So for the record, what you've done is you were let off at the

14 location marked as number 1, you followed this line down what was Liska

15 Street. And anticipating my next question, thank you, what do you mean to

16 indicate as the spot numbered 2?

17 A. That is the location where we first saw Mr. Mladen Naletilic.

18 MR. SCOTT: I am finished with that exhibit, Mr. Usher. Thank

19 you.

20 Q. Witness HH, just a very few more questions, and then at least the

21 direct examination will be completed.

22 Sir, in your statement to the OTP dated May 1999, you indicated

23 that there was a time from about the middle of 1993 to the end of that

24 year, and even perhaps until February of 1994, that you were held in an

25 isolation cell. Do you remember that?

Page 4857

1 A. I remember.

2 Q. Is it correct, sir, that, in fact, contrary to that, you escaped

3 from the Heliodrom while on a work detail on approximately the 28th of

4 July, 1993?

5 A. Yes, I escaped on 28th July, 1993, because had I not escaped, I

6 would not be alive now.

7 Q. And did you -- again, I think for these purposes, did you then

8 move around while remaining free and, essentially, stay out of HVO custody

9 until after the -- continuing up to the time of the Dayton agreement much

10 later?

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. Would you tell the Chamber why it is that you had previously said

13 that you were, in fact, being held in an isolation cell at the Heliodrom

14 when, in fact, you had escaped at that time?

15 A. For fear for my family, who to date are still around, and I'm very

16 concerned about my family.

17 Q. Sir, when you say "around," are they still in the Herzegovina

18 region?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And my final question to you is: Did you make a statement to

21 the -- a component of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina dated 1 May 1994?

22 Did you make a statement at that time?

23 A. I did not.

24 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, thank you very much for the Chamber's

25 patience and assistance. I have no further questions of this witness.

Page 4858

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any cross-examination? Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you see it's not all in

3 my hands. The examination-in-chief, I thought that it would go on for

4 another ten minutes and it's almost an hour, and I will try to finish, and

5 I'm in your hands.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, we might have a break at 4.30, and we will

7 continue at 5.00. You may proceed, Mr. Krsnik.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon. I am the Defence

10 counsellor for the accused Naletilic, and I'm going to ask you some

11 questions. Will you please listen to me carefully and answer my questions

12 as succinctly as possible.

13 Since we both speak the same language, I would ask you to please

14 wait for me to ask my questions, pause for the interpretation, and it will

15 help us both.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can we have the ELMO, please, lowered

17 before we start?

18 Q. Witness, tell me, did you sign a statement which you gave to the

19 investigators of this Tribunal?

20 A. I guess so.

21 Q. Excuse me.

22 A. I think I signed it.

23 Q. This is what it says:

24 "This statement was read to me out loud in the Bosnian language

25 and contains everything that I have stated to the best of my knowledge and

Page 4859












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4860

1 recollection. I have given this statement voluntarily and am aware that

2 it may be used in legal proceedings before the International Criminal

3 Tribunal for the prosecution of persons responsible for serious violations

4 of international law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia

5 since 1991 and that I may be called to give evidence in public before the

6 Tribunal."

7 And then you signed your statement; is that correct? Witness, are

8 you aware of what you were saying there?

9 A. Are you trying to proclaim me insane? Of course I'm aware.

10 Q. Witness, you gave your assurances to the investigators of this

11 Tribunal that you were at the Heliodrom until the last day, that is,

12 February of 1994. "When I was released."

13 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please be asked to move closer,

14 and maybe the second microphone can also be turned on for him.

15 A. Do I answer now?

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Yes, I would like to you answer. Were you aware of who you were

18 talking to and what you were saying to them?

19 A. Of course I was aware of what I was saying. My purpose was to

20 come here and say -- and tell the truth.

21 Q. So is that the truth?

22 A. What?

23 Q. That you were at the Heliodrom until the end of February 1994.

24 A. I said, sir, that I had stated that in order to protect my

25 family.

Page 4861

1 Q. Witness, we're not children here.

2 A. I'm no small child either.

3 Q. Will you please be serious.

4 A. I am quite serious.

5 Q. Then you could have stated it in such a way -- in this way rather

6 than say that you were there until 1994, and today you explain why you did

7 not say -- did not tell the truth to them, because you did not tell them

8 the truth.

9 A. Every truth has two sides, including this one.

10 Q. You also were not released from the solitary in 1994 but in

11 December, at Christmas; is that correct?

12 A. Sir, I told you that I wanted to protect my family, and I will

13 repeat this a hundred times if necessary. This is -- I wanted to protect

14 them, but I feel a duty to come before this Trial Chamber and tell the

15 truth. But I have the right to protect my family. I lost not only my

16 father but 40 members of my close and extended family. I have the right

17 to protect them.

18 Q. Witness, I completely agree with that, but I do not agree that you

19 can tell lies to the --

20 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, you're debating with the witness now.

21 You're debating with the witness. We understand the reasons that he

22 gave. Now don't -- move on to another issue.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness, you said that you had not given any other statements

25 except the one you gave to the ICTY investigators. That was your last

Page 4862

1 answer to the Prosecutor's question.

2 A. No. I told him I did not give a statement on 1 May 1995.

3 Q. He asked you about 1 May 1994.

4 A. Apologies. 1994.

5 Q. And you did not give such a statement?

6 A. No. I did not give such a statement.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I will ask the usher -- the Defence

8 had the statement translated into English because we had not received it

9 to date. We have a sufficient number of copies for everyone, and I have a

10 separate one for the witness.

11 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

13 MR. SCOTT: I don't want the wrong impression to be left by the

14 witness. This statement was disclosed or this purported statement was

15 disclosed to Mr. Krsnik some time ago, as soon as it came to our

16 attention, immediately after it came to your attention. So I don't want

17 there to be some impression that it's been withheld by the Prosecution.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not say that it

19 was not disclosed. I just said that we never received it in the English

20 language. So we took the trouble to have it translated into English.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Can the booths also be provided with copies?

22 Thank you.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

24 Q. My first question: Is your signature down at the lower right-hand

25 side?

Page 4863

1 A. It looks like mine but it is not mine.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher if he

3 would be so kind as to give this witness a blank piece of paper and a pen

4 on which he can sign a couple of times, once perhaps in longhand, once in

5 block letters or maybe several times.

6 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, is that necessary to do that before the

7 Court? You understand that we are not the experts in this matter.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour. But I'm

9 going to give that signature to experts. Or, if the gentleman has a

10 document on him with his signature on it, he can simply show it to us.

11 The Defence has the right to verify the signature and has a right

12 to use an expert, because you see, Your Honours, the way we have been

13 going, the Defence is quite suspicious about this witness. So I would

14 like to request that this witness does provide a signature so that we can

15 verify the signature through an expert.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] But do we have an expert here in

18 the courtroom so that he could attest to the fact that both signatures

19 come from this person? This is what we worry about.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is my concern, too,

21 because I will never see this witness again. And these are not -- I'm not

22 leading witnesses right now. It's not our turn. And I will call him as

23 my witness when my turn comes.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] If I can just add, if you have not

25 ruled yet, the Defence of Vinko Martinovic also seconds this proposal

Page 4864

1 because we will never see this witness again. We'll never have him

2 again. This is the unique opportunity, and we would like to second this.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, we believe that is a very unusual way, to do

4 this kind of practice in the courtroom. If you are challenging the

5 authenticity of this document, there are a lot of other ways to do so.

6 For instance, you could call your witness in your direct examination.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] But what to compare it with? I need

8 to have the -- both the contested signature and the other signature. With

9 all due apologies, when my turn comes, then I'll have to call this witness

10 back.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, let us hear the response from the Prosecution.

12 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, one document I think is available, if

13 counsel wants to show it to the witness, which I assume he'll get to in

14 any event. And that is the signature on the ICTY statement, which should

15 be in the courtroom and I think can be shown to the witness quite easily.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Do you have that document at your hands? Can we

17 use --

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I don't.

19 JUDGE LIU: Can we use the documents from the Prosecution?

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you know, I have to

21 apologise, but they're in the rub. This is a problem. I don't want the

22 witness to listen to this, but we have two different signatures on the

23 Prosecution's documents, too. [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 THE WITNESS: No, I'm getting up.

Page 4865

1 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, you have to understand -- silent. Silent,

2 Witness.

3 THE WITNESS: You haven't managed to kill everybody. There are

4 still some Bosniaks alive.

5 JUDGE LIU: Since there is great confrontation in this courtroom,

6 we have to recess at this moment. We will resume at 4.30.

7 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, with the monitoring of any court staff,

8 could I have a word with the witness.

9 JUDGE LIU: Sure. Sure, of course.

10 --- Recess taken at 4.05 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 4.30 p.m.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, during the break, the Judges have had some

13 consultations amongst ourselves. We decided to send a strong warning to

14 the Defence counsel of Mr. Naletilic, Mr. Krsnik, for your disclosing the

15 identity of this witness. We have to understand that those witnesses can be

16 heard on the condition of the protective measures. It is an unforgivable

17 mistake for you to disclose his identity. It's quite understandable that

18 the witness feels very uneasy and upset. We hope that this kind of

19 mistake should never be repeated again in the future proceedings.

20 Secondly, as for the signature of this this witness, this Trial

21 Chamber will take whatever the witness said in his testimony. We don't

22 believe there is a necessity for this witness to write his signatures in

23 this courtroom. If the Defence counsel has any doubts about the

24 authenticity of a document, of a signature, you have the full right to

25 rebuttal this witness in your direct examination by calling your own

Page 4866

1 witness and showing your own documents.

2 Thirdly, we are very sorry that we could not finish with this

3 witness this week. I think we have to break at this moment to have both

4 the witness and Defence counsel cool off. We will continue our

5 proceedings next Monday.

6 Before all of you leave the room, I would like to remind you to

7 bring all your personal belongings out of this courtroom, because tomorrow

8 there will be a very important judgement to deliver in this courtroom and

9 which involves, I believe, five accused and a lot of security people in

10 this courtroom.

11 Could we have the witness called in. This Chamber would like to

12 say a few words directly to the witness.

13 JUDGE CLARK: Before the witness comes in, I want to add to what

14 the President has said. I have to say that as a Judge, I am personally

15 very disappointed in the behaviour of Mr. Krsnik. As a special favour to

16 you, we gave you permission to attend religious services. It is a pity

17 that the Christian message of today did not carry into how you treated

18 this witness today. It is open to you as a professional person to

19 challenge what he says, but you have to do it with courtesy, and you have

20 to do it with understanding. This is a man who explained that he had lost

21 40 members of his family in a civil war which has affected you, as much as

22 him. All of you should be sensitive to the suffering that has occurred in

23 your country.

24 I am personally very disappointed that, first of all, you treated

25 him rudely; and secondly -- and it's not the first time that this has

Page 4867

1 happened. I'm not saying it's just you, Mr. Krsnik, but it is the second

2 or third time that a protected witness's identity has been exposed. I

3 think that an apology is owed to this witness, perhaps not today. He is

4 upset. You're upset. The Court is upset. Valuable time has been

5 wasted. And I think Judge Diarra has something to say as well. We don't

6 want to hear you in response. We hope that you didn't do it deliberately,

7 but this is happening too often with witnesses, that they are being made

8 upset by Defence counsel.

9 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Both of you conveyed the gist of

10 the message of the Chamber. Mr. Krsnik should remember that the

11 witnesses, even if they do not speak the truth; but however, they are to

12 be treated properly. One may speak what one means, especially when it is

13 experienced counsel, but it can be done without creating a negative

14 atmosphere. That is all I wish to add to what has been said.

15 [Witness entered court]

16 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness. I understand that you are

17 very upset about the proceedings this afternoon. As the President of this

18 Trial Chamber, I have to apologise to you for the breaking of the rules of

19 this Trial Chamber. We have already sent very strong warnings to Defence

20 counsel concerning the disclosure of your identity and now instruct the

21 registrar to have the certain paragraph redacted. We appreciate your

22 presence in this courtroom to give your evidence. We do not want you to

23 suffer a second time in this courtroom. So I am expecting you to be back

24 next Monday to continue with your testimony on this case. You have to

25 understand, it is not your personal matter. It is the justice for all

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1 those who suffered in the former Yugoslavia and for a fair and expeditious

2 trial before this Tribunal.

3 I hope you could understand what I have said to you. Thank you.

4 We will adjourn until 9.30 Monday morning.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.40 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Monday, the 5th day

7 of November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.