Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6153

1 Wednesday, 21 November 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The accused Naletilic not present]

5 [The witness entered court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

7 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

9 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I think

14 it's all right now.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Par: [Continued]

16 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning.

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. We will continue discussion from yesterday, starting with the

19 events at the hospital where we left off yesterday. Let me remind you, we

20 were dealing with the topic of Dzemo Skobalj, and I claimed he was not a

21 member of Stela's unit. I would like to ask you how long you spent in the

22 hospital, when you arrived and when you left.

23 A. I came there on the 16th of March and left on the 1st of July,

24 1993.

25 Q. Very well. In that period, did you ever see Vinko Martinovic,

Page 6154

1 Stela, in the hospital?

2 A. No, not at the hospital.

3 Q. Do you have any information that Stela was personally advised of

4 incidents that took place at the hospital, such as the one involving

5 Dr. Amira Camdzic? Do you have any knowledge about that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. I would like to ask you two or three questions regarding that part

8 of your testimony in which you said that you took certain things out of

9 apartments, loaded them onto trucks, transferred them to other places.

10 Can you remember from which parts of the city you took out goods?

11 A. We would arrive at Centar I, Centar II, Bakina Luka,

12 neighbourhoods like that. I know from other inmates the names of these

13 neighbourhoods, but I myself cannot place them exactly.

14 Q. And where would you drive those things?

15 A. We took things out of apartments or houses, loaded them onto

16 trucks, and those goods were transported to Grude, Siroki Brijeg. I don't

17 know about other places.

18 Q. If I understood you correctly, you did not accompany those things;

19 you didn't unload them?

20 A. No, the driver would say that there were people waiting to unload

21 them at destination in Grude, Siroki Brijeg, and we would stay behind,

22 wait for the truck to come back, and continue.

23 Q. Can you tell us, if you know, the names of some of the soldiers

24 who you recall as being there in those spots at the time on such

25 occasions?

Page 6155

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Can you tell us the name of any prisoner who was working together

3 with you? We can go into private session if necessary, if you want to

4 tell us a name.

5 A. I could say a couple of names.

6 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if we can go into private

7 session, please?

8 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session, please.

9 [Private session]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

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19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, cross-examination, Mr. Meek?

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Meek:

24 Q. Good morning, Witness PP. How are you this morning? Good

25 morning. How are you? My name is Chris Meek, and I'm one of the lawyers

Page 6156

1 for the accused Mr. Naletilic. I just have a few questions for you.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, you have to turn off your mike because

3 the witness is watching the lights, the red lights.

4 MR. MEEK: I'm sorry.

5 Q. Witness PP, at the time you were injured in March, the 16th of

6 March, 1993, you were a soldier with the BH army; is that correct?

7 A. I cannot hear anything.

8 Q. Witness PP, can you hear me now?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Good morning, Witness PP. My name is Chris Meek, and I'm one of

11 the attorneys for the accused Naletilic. How are you this morning?

12 A. I'm fine, thanks.

13 Q. As I understood your testimony yesterday, you were injured in the

14 town of Gacko near Sarajevo on the 16th of March, 1993. Is that correct?

15 A. I wasn't injured in Gacko. I was injured in Hrasnica, in

16 Sarajevo.

17 Q. At that time, you were an active member of the BH army; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell me and the Trial Chamber what year you became a

21 member of the BH army?

22 A. I became a member of the BH army on the 30th of June, 1992.

23 Q. Have you remained a member of the BH army continuously until this

24 date today?

25 A. Do I have to answer that question?

Page 6157

1 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, could we go into closed session --

2 private session?

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session.

4 [Private session]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

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Page 6160

1 [Open session]


3 Q. Witness PP, you did not see any units from the Croatian army on

4 the confrontation line, did you?

5 A. Could you repeat the question, please.

6 Q. You did not observe the presence of any HV or Croatian army units

7 at your time at the confrontation line; is that correct?

8 A. The Croatian army -- there was a presence of the Croatian army at

9 the Heliodrom.

10 Q. But not at the confrontation line?

11 A. I did not have occasion to see them on the confrontation line

12 because I didn't spend much time there. I told you exactly where I had

13 been, and I cannot say anything about things I'm not aware of. At the

14 Heliodrom, there were units of the Croatian army.

15 Q. Thank you, Witness PP.

16 If you know, can you tell us what units you observed at the

17 Heliodrom from the Croatian army?

18 A. There were several such units. I heard references to Tigers, the

19 Split unit, the Rijeka unit. More of them were mentioned, more of those

20 Croatian army units which were stationed or deployed at the airport.

21 Q. Witness PP, in your last answer, you said that you heard

22 references to Tigers, the Split unit, and a third unit that were

23 mentioned. Do I take it that you heard about these units but did never

24 see them personally?

25 A. I had no contact with them, but I heard from inmates who had been

Page 6161

1 out to work, that they had been to work with those Tigers and those

2 others. I personally was not taken out to carry out works with any of

3 those units.

4 Q. And I take it, Witness PP, that you did not notice the presence of

5 any of these Croatian army or HV in the Heliodrom premises personally?

6 A. I do not distinguish between the Split unit or the Rijeka unit and

7 the Tiger unit. I wasn't -- I have never been down there. I can't say.

8 All I know comes from the inmates who had been out to work with various

9 units.

10 Q. In your statement that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor on

11 the 12th day of March, 1999, and also the 15th day of March, 1999, you

12 said you did not notice the presence of HV in the Heliodrom premises. And

13 that's the truth, is it not?

14 A. If somebody had asked me, I might have answered. If nobody asked

15 me, then I didn't mention it.

16 MR. MEEK: Could I ask the usher, please, to hand this to

17 Witness PP?

18 Q. Witness PP, the usher will hand you - in Croatian, your native

19 language - your statement to the OTP from the days you were interviewed,

20 on the 12th and 15th day of March, 1999, and I believe it's on page 3. I

21 have highlighted the paragraph. And perhaps it's in the translation, but

22 in the English translation, the last sentence - and I want you to tell

23 this Trial Chamber whether this is correct - you stated: "I also didn't

24 notice the presence of HV in the Heliodrom premises." Is that correct?

25 A. Sir, I said the same thing here just now. I said I had no contact

Page 6162

1 with the Croatian army and all I know is from inmates who had such

2 contact. I believe the meaning of this sentence is the same. I believe

3 my testimony and my statement show no visible difference.

4 Q. Witness PP, probably due to translation, it was my mistake and my

5 misunderstanding. I have no further questions. I want to thank you for

6 coming to this Tribunal to give your testimony, and I wish you the best in

7 your future life. Thank you very much, PP.

8 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination, Mr. Bos?

9 MR. BOS: No, Your Honour. No re-examination.

10 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from Judges? Judge Clark?

11 Questioned by the Court:

12 JUDGE CLARK: Witness PP, can I ask you a few questions? When you

13 would leave the Heliodrom to go and do the various days' work which we

14 describe as forced labour, were you ever told in advance what work you

15 were going to do?

16 A. No.

17 JUDGE CLARK: And when did you actually find out what your tasks

18 were? Was it when you had actually arrived at the site?

19 A. When we had arrived on the spot, yes.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Did the person who directed you towards this man

21 Dinko or Vinko have a list who were to go in each truck -- or bus, I

22 should say?

23 A. At the place where we were housed, Vinko or Dinko would come in,

24 accompanied by two men, policemen or escorts. In any event, there were

25 always two of them. He always had a list of people who had been out to

Page 6163

1 work the previous day, and he would try to take the same people again, if

2 they were able to work. Of course, to the same places where they had

3 worked before.

4 JUDGE CLARK: That, Witness PP, leads me to my next question. If

5 the two men - there were always two, as you say - had a list each day of

6 the people who had gone out the previous day, and as far as it was

7 possible they selected that same list, did those two people, or any other

8 people in their stead, check the list of detainees when you came home in

9 the evening?

10 A. No.

11 JUDGE CLARK: So the only check was in the morning.

12 Well, could you assist the Trial Chamber by telling us what would

13 happen if a name was called out and that person was unable to answer? Was

14 there a series of questions to ascertain why he wasn't available?

15 A. Yes. When somebody wouldn't answer, they would ask what happened

16 to that man, whether he had gotten killed or wounded on Santiceva Street

17 or whether something else happened. That was the point of their

18 questions.

19 JUDGE CLARK: And you say that the persons with the lists in the

20 morning were, therefore, aware in your presence that from time to time,

21 that prisoners who went out to do labour were actually killed?

22 A. Yes, they were aware of that.

23 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.

24 During the period that you were in the Heliodrom -- I know that

25 you were fortunate enough to escape after two and a half months, but did

Page 6164

1 you have any contact with any humanitarian organisation such as the Red

2 Cross? Were you aware of their coming to the camp?

3 A. Yes. They came to the camp, but I was not there at the time they

4 came, because when they knew that the Red Cross people would come, they

5 would transfer us to other places, so half of us would not be there, and

6 half of us were actually not registered by the Red Cross. I happened to

7 be in Sovici on one such occasion where the Red Cross came to register the

8 detainees.

9 JUDGE CLARK: When you say that you were in Sovici when the Red

10 Cross came, does that mean that the Red Cross were in Heliodrom while you

11 were in Sovici?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 JUDGE CLARK: Do you think that was an accident or a deliberate

14 ploy on behalf of the authorities, in your opinion?

15 A. I think it was a deliberate ploy because it happened on several

16 occasions. We could feel it whenever an international organisation was

17 supposed to visit, such as the Red Cross. We knew because people were

18 being taken away. For example, in a room where normally there would be

19 300 of us, only 10 or 20 people would remain. So it was on the basis of

20 that that we were able to conclude that an international organisation such

21 as the Red Cross was about to visit the camp. They wanted to have as few

22 of us there as possible.

23 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.

24 If I now ask you about this person who used to drive the blue bus,

25 and you named the brand of bus, who you think -- whose name you think was

Page 6165

1 either Dinko or Vinko. My understanding of your evidence in relation to

2 his name was that he would tell you one day that his name was Dinko, and

3 if you called him Dinko, he would say his name was Vinko. Do I understand

4 you correctly on that?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE CLARK: When did you find out, or how did you find out, or

7 why do you believe that his last name was Martinovic?

8 A. That is how he introduced himself. Whenever someone called him by

9 the name of Dinko, he would say, "No, I'm not Dinko. I'm Vinko

10 Martinovic," or the other way around. It was him who used those words.

11 JUDGE CLARK: If I can jump a little bit to the person who was

12 your school friend and who you grew up with who was with the KB, the

13 Convicts Battalion and who came to the hospital. I don't recall his name

14 at the moment. Do you remember that man? It began with an "S." Do you

15 remember you were telling us about this person who came to the hospital,

16 and you knew him from your youth? Dzemo Skobalj.

17 A. Dzemo, it's a man.

18 JUDGE CLARK: Yes. That's who I was talking about. I think you

19 said you knew him because you had been to the same school together.

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE CLARK: You were asked questions by Mr. Par on behalf Vinko

22 Martinovic in relation to him. My understanding of what you said about

23 him was that he told you that he was a member of the Convicts Battalion.

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE CLARK: And am I also correct that he told you that he was a

Page 6166

1 member of a group called Stelici?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE CLARK: At that stage, did you know anything about the unit

4 that was called after Stela's dog? Was that in the hospital?

5 A. At that time, I didn't know much. I had heard something, but I

6 didn't know what the meaning of the word was. I was not familiar with

7 that unit or with the man by the name of Stela until such time as -- when

8 I experienced it personally.

9 JUDGE CLARK: Was that after you had been taken away from the

10 hospital and detained at the Heliodrom?

11 A. I don't think I understand your question.

12 JUDGE CLARK: I'm really trying to establish, because it's not

13 clear to me, at what stage you became aware that this former school friend

14 of yours, Dzemo, was a member of the Convicts Battalion and then that he

15 had any contact with a group called Stelici. At what stage did you know

16 that?

17 A. While I was in hospital, Dzemo came to see me with another man,

18 with a friend of his who was actually the one who came to see me. But he

19 happened to be with me at that time. And that is when I made contact with

20 them, and they said that they were from the Convicts Battalion, that there

21 was a unit by the name of Stelici, and something to that effect. That was

22 the first time when I heard about them. And the second time I saw him was

23 when he came to arrest me.

24 JUDGE CLARK: At what stage did you become aware of the connection

25 between the Stelici and Mrmak, the name, as you told us, was, you

Page 6167

1 believed, the name of Stela's dog? How did you hear that? How did you

2 become aware, and when did you first become aware?

3 A. When I went out to perform labour, we spoke amongst ourselves,

4 detainees, and there were a few of them who knew him personally, and they

5 told us that that was his dog. I don't know whether it was Mrmak, Mrmat

6 [phoen], or something like that. I cannot claim with certainty what the

7 name was, but there was also an inscription of some sort on the insignia.

8 But as I'm not 100 per cent sure, I'd rather not state it precisely.

9 JUDGE CLARK: If you're not 100 per cent sure of this, obviously

10 I'll understand. It's a while ago. Can you recall if you had heard of

11 the word "Mrmak" when you were still a patient in hospital?

12 A. No.

13 JUDGE CLARK: Is that no, you're not 100 per cent sure or no, you

14 didn't hear about the name Mrmak when you were in hospital?

15 A. No, I didn't hear about the name Mrmak.

16 JUDGE CLARK: So can I understand your evidence to be that you did

17 not hear the name Mrmak until after you had been taken from the hospital?

18 A. When I went out to perform labour, I heard about Mrmak for the

19 first time; I think it was when I was brought to work at the Bulevar.

20 That was the first time that I came to do some work, and that was also the

21 first time that I heard about Mrmak and Stelici, while I was doing that

22 work.

23 JUDGE CLARK: While you were doing the work - some of it I

24 appreciate was not actually in Mostar - but when you were in the town of

25 Mostar and doing work, who did you understand as being the person in

Page 6168

1 charge of the activities, the military activities, where you were

2 brought?

3 A. Could you please repeat the question, Your Honour?

4 JUDGE CLARK: I'm referring only to the work that you did near the

5 Bulevar, near the confrontation line. So we can exclude when you were

6 doing other works in various other parts of the country. Only in relation

7 to the works near the confrontation line, did you have any idea who was

8 the commander of the military activity in that limited area?

9 A. Stela. We were always told, "The boss is coming. Stela is

10 coming. Stela is going to kill us all if you're not -- do the work

11 properly," and things like that. So we knew it was Stela.

12 JUDGE CLARK: Now, if I bring you to what is probably a painful

13 part of your evidence, it's the day on which you effected your escape, did

14 you have any idea when you were taken out in the bus that morning that

15 anything different was about to take place?

16 A. Up until the moment we arrived at the spot, at the Health Centre,

17 nothing unusual happened. But what happened after my escape, I don't

18 know. There may have been other things that were taking place at the

19 time, but I cannot tell you anything about them because I simply don't

20 know.

21 JUDGE CLARK: As far as you were concerned, it was another day at

22 work? When you were given the wooden rifle, where did it -- where did it

23 come from? Did you see just one rifle, or were there a few of them?

24 A. I saw four rifles.

25 JUDGE CLARK: Was it immediately obvious to you that they were

Page 6169

1 imitation rifles?

2 A. Of course.

3 JUDGE CLARK: Now, I appreciate that a prisoner in the presence of

4 armed soldiers has few rights, but did any of you say anything or ask any

5 questions? Because after all, this must have been a very unusual

6 occurrence.

7 A. No one could muster enough courage to ask any questions

8 whatsoever, because we knew that if we tried to oppose them in any way,

9 they would squash us, they would kill us. They all had pistols. It was

10 forced labour. There were no laws whatsoever. No one was responsible for

11 us.

12 JUDGE CLARK: I'm sorry that I have to ask you these details,

13 because obviously this is painful for you. You talked about going down

14 into the cellar on your own and when you got down there, Stela was at a

15 desk, I think you said, with maps, and that there was a small man there.

16 Do you remember that?

17 A. Yes. He was standing at the door, and people called him Dolma.

18 Meanwhile, Stela was sitting at a desk inside. There was a map in front

19 of him, and a chair near the desk, across the desk, and I sat on that

20 chair.

21 JUDGE CLARK: Was this man Dolma - I know it's difficult to

22 remember details like that - but was he wearing any sort of a uniform?

23 A. Yes. I remember very well. He had green trousers, which were

24 commonly referred to as Vietnam trousers. He had a camouflage-patterned

25 T-shirt and a black vest.

Page 6170

1 JUDGE CLARK: At what stage did the man who you described to us as

2 Dado come into the frame?

3 A. Dado approached me at the moment I was cleaning the rifles. He

4 came to fetch me and take me to the basement where Stela was.

5 JUDGE CLARK: I think you described him as a big man with a beard,

6 dark --

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 JUDGE CLARK: Was he with you when you joined up with the other

9 three detainees who were put into camouflage jackets and given wooden

10 rifles?

11 A. Yes. He then brought me back to them, and he showed me where we

12 were supposed to go. He motioned to the building that we were supposed to

13 reach and wait for them to cross over near that building. But after I

14 passed the building in question, I no longer remember anything. I was

15 wounded, but thank God I survived.

16 JUDGE CLARK: You have been of great assistance to me,

17 Witness PP. And thank you very much.

18 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge Clark's questions? Yes,

19 Mr. Par.

20 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I do have a couple of questions, Your

21 Honours. Thank you very much.

22 Further cross-examination by Mr. Par:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, as regards the events which took place

24 at the hospital involving Dzemo Skobalj, do you know that Vinko

25 Martinovic, Stela, used to be the commander of a unit during the war with

Page 6171

1 Serbs, a unit which was not within the HVO? Are you familiar with that

2 fact?

3 A. I did hear that Vinko Martinovic was a commander of an HOS unit,

4 but again, this is something that I heard, that he was one of the

5 commanding persons with HOS.

6 Q. Were his soldiers at that time also referred to as Stelici?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. The HOS, did it -- was it disbanded at some point in time as a

9 military formation before the war between -- opposing Croats and Muslims?

10 A. Yes, I think it was disbanded before that.

11 Q. So do you think that it is possible -- speaking of the period of

12 time before the conflict opposing Muslims and Croats, and before the

13 formation of Stela's unit, was it possible for members of his previous

14 unit to be referred to as Stelici? Did they recognise themselves as

15 Stelici? So would it be possible for someone else other than the members

16 of this unit to be -- the Vinko Skrobo unit to be called -- to be referred

17 to as Stelici?

18 A. Well, I'm really sorry, but I have to tell you something. I know

19 that you are defending Stela for money. But I have come here to tell the

20 Court the truth, and I have to tell you everything I know about Stela.

21 Q. Very well. Just another very brief question regarding command at

22 the separation line. You said that you knew that Stela was the commander

23 because he would visit you to inspect the situation. Do you mean that he

24 was only in charge of the Health Centre, or other areas as well?

25 A. I told you that I'm not very familiar with the area itself because

Page 6172

1 a few metres further, there would be another street with another name. I

2 know the area was referred to as "the Bulevar," and I know that this is

3 where we performed labour, and this is where Stela was.

4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. No further

5 questions.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos.

7 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour. A few questions.

8 Further examination by Mr. Bos:

9 Q. Witness PP, you were asked about these lists -- in the morning

10 when you would be picked up from the Heliodrom, that people would come

11 with a list, and that sometimes people who would be called out from the

12 list were no longer there. My question is: How often would that happen

13 that people were not there, prisoners were not there who were called out

14 from the list?

15 A. It happened very often.

16 Q. And would it also happen that witnesses who were called out would

17 not be able to come because they were injured? Prisoners, I'm sorry. I

18 said "witnesses," but I meant prisoners.

19 A. I think I've already answered the question. Sometimes the

20 detainee would be killed or taken away or not be -- to work elsewhere and

21 not be returned to the Heliodrom, so there were always people who were

22 missing, those who had left in the morning. Not everybody would return to

23 the same spot.

24 MR. BOS: Thank you. No further questions.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for helping us by giving your

Page 6173

1 evidence. When the usher pulls down the blinds, he will show you out of

2 the room. We wish you good luck in the future.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 [Witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender into

6 evidence?

7 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour. I have two exhibits that need to be

8 tendered. One is Exhibit 888, which is the sketch made by the witness.

9 And I would like to tender that under seal because his name appears on the

10 sketch. And the other exhibit is 14.11, which the witness marked.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections? Mr. Par.

12 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

14 Mr. Meek?

15 MR. MEEK: None, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. So those two documents are admitted into

17 the evidence. And Document P888 is under seal.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Document P888 is now PP888, and it is under seal.

19 Exhibit P14.11 is PP14.11/1.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

21 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, I would ask that D1/35, which was a

22 picture that Witness OO marked on the -- marked the direction that the

23 tank was moving yesterday, or the day before, be admitted, please.

24 D1/35, yes.

25 MR. BOS: Excuse me, are you referring to this witness,

Page 6174

1 Witness PP?

2 MR. MEEK: Witness OO, I think. It's OO.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it is admitted into evidence, for Witness OO, not

4 for Witness PP.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That Exhibit D1/35 is now DD1/35.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Are you ready for your next witness,

7 Mr. Prosecutor?

8 MR. BOS: Yes. Mr. Scott will take the next witness.

9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, the next witness will be a protected

10 witness. He will be asking for a pseudonym and voice and face distortion,

11 and if granted, of course, that may take some few minutes to set that up.

12 THE REGISTRAR: The Victims and Witness Section informed me that

13 the witness is on his way. He should be here in the next five minutes or

14 so, because we need to prepare for the voice distortion, maybe.

15 JUDGE LIU: Are there any objections for those protective

16 measures?

17 MR. MEEK: None from the Defence of Mr. Naletilic, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

19 Mr. Par?

20 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No, no objection.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We are adjourned for ten minutes. We will

22 resume at 20 to 11.00.

23 --- Break taken at 10.30 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 6175

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott, would you please brief us about the

2 relevance in the indictment, please?

3 MR. SCOTT: Yes, of course, Your Honour. May it please the Court,

4 the testimony of this witness will relate to the background part of the

5 indictment, paragraphs 7 and 11; the matters of superior authority,

6 paragraphs 14, 15, and 16; general allegations, paragraphs 18, 19, and 20;

7 count 1, persecutions, paragraph 27 and 28, paragraph 30, paragraph 33 and

8 34; counts 2 through 5, paragraphs 35 through 38, 40, 44; and counts 9

9 through 12, paragraphs 45 and 50.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

11 Witness, would you please stand up? Good morning.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

13 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter].

18 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please.

19 Yes, Mr. Scott.

20 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I thought I might inquire, since it's

21 already ten to 11.00, might the Chamber allow us to take the witness for

22 approximately half an hour and take the break a bit later? It doesn't

23 really matter, but we will barely get started now and then it will be time

24 for the break. But whichever the Court prefers.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may proceed. We might stop at 11.20. How

Page 6176

1 about that?

2 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. That would be helpful, I

3 think. Thank you very much.

4 Examined by Mr. Scott:

5 Q. Witness, good morning. Your request for protective measures has

6 been granted, which means that you will be given what's called a

7 pseudonym, essentially a letter or series of letters that will be used to

8 identify you for purposes of the record, and your true name will not be

9 used in court and will not be put on the record, to protect your

10 identification. Further, you will be granted what's called facial image

11 distortion so that in any sort of broadcast of these proceedings, your

12 face will not be shown, again to protect your identity. And finally, your

13 voice will also be protected.

14 For purposes of these protections, let me alert you that,

15 especially concerning the voice distortion, I will have to turn off my

16 microphone after I finish asking you a question and then you will give

17 your answer. Now, since we don't -- you and I do not speak the same

18 language that normally will probably not be a problem because there is

19 usually a lag in translation in any event, but nonetheless, I caution you

20 about that and so you will understand.

21 Now, for these reasons, Witness, you have been given the

22 pseudonym, which is QQ, and that is how you will be referred to in court,

23 not only by me but by Defence counsel and by the Judges, should they have

24 questions for you.

25 Now, I'm going to have the usher show you a piece of paper, and I

Page 6177

1 simply want to you say - and for all the reasons I've just said, don't

2 state your name, but just say - is that your name on that piece of paper;

3 yes or no?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Very well. Thank you very much.

6 MR. SCOTT: Usher, if that could be displayed in the courtroom,

7 please.

8 Mr. President, I'm going to take the first series of questions and

9 try to do as much as possible at the beginning of this witness's testimony

10 in private session in order to stay out of private session as much as

11 possible. So if we could go to private session for a few minutes,

12 please.

13 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

14 [Private session]

15 [redacted]

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24 [Open session]


Page 6188

1 Q. All right. Now, sir, we've come up to about the 8th of May.

2 You've told us you were stopped the day before. On the 8th of May, will

3 you take your story forward. What happened on the 8th of May? Were you

4 allowed to go on your way, or what happened next?

5 A. On the 8th of May, all passengers were ordered to board the bus.

6 It must have been an agreement with the army. We took the road which was

7 called the Put Spasa route, or "the salvation route," and we were stopped

8 by the army police at one point in time. Eleven of us able-bodied men

9 were taken out. They didn't allow us to take our things. I still had

10 some money on me in my trousers. And we were put on a van and taken to

11 the elementary school in Tomislavgrad.

12 Q. You've said just now that - looking at the transcript - that the

13 army police stopped you and took 11 of you off the bus. Can you further

14 identify these army police, what type of police they were, and if you can

15 tell us, which army were they part of?

16 A. The military police belonged to the HVO. We could see it written,

17 "HVO." And they had, of course, the typical white belts and pump-action

18 rifles. Some had Kalashnikovs as well.

19 Q. For geographic reference, when you were stopped at that time, was

20 this around a place that used to be called Tomislavgrad, and since then

21 the name has changed to Duvno?

22 A. No, no, no, it used to be called Duvno, and the name has been

23 changed to Tomislavgrad.

24 Yes, we were stopped not far from there near a lake. It was the

25 first time I saw that lake. I think it's a natural lake. There was a

Page 6189

1 cottage house there and a swing gate on the road where they stopped

2 private vehicles, buses, everyone. But it was not very far from

3 Tomislavgrad. It didn't take us very long to reach the town from there.

4 Q. Were you then taken to any particular location or building where

5 you were held further?

6 A. We were taken to an abandoned school building, to the basement of

7 that school. I think it was an elementary school or a secondary school.

8 I'm not sure. I never asked, and I didn't know. And there were already

9 40 or 50 people there, various people, including drivers, who were

10 transporting various goods.

11 Q. Now, is it correct that as opposed to the first group of people

12 you told us about a few minutes ago, this group of men in the school at

13 Duvno -- group of prisoners, excuse me -- at the elementary school in

14 Duvno, that these were military-aged men?

15 A. They were all military-age men, but there were a few elderly

16 people as well. There was also a woman, but the police treated her

17 correctly. They let her go.

18 Q. How were the men, including yourself, treated during this time?

19 A. They didn't treat us very well. They were quite dangerous,

20 actually.

21 Q. Can you tell us approximately how long you were kept at this

22 location, that is, the school in Duvno, or Tomislavgrad, however you

23 identify it?

24 A. I was there for 15 days - I have documents to prove it - together

25 with 10 other people. Eleven of us were there for 15 days, and others

Page 6190

1 stayed behind.

2 Q. Do you recall the name of the -- who appeared to you, perhaps, to

3 be the commander, or the person in charge of this detention facility?

4 A. I remember that an individual by the name of Tomo was there. He

5 was a very nice person. He held the rank of major, and I learned that

6 Glasnovic was the main commander in Tomislavgrad. I saw him only on one

7 occasion. He was a rather fine, polite gentleman, just as Tomo, who was

8 one of the commanders. He didn't let us work too hard at Kupres, at Cuke,

9 when we were taken there to do some work. So I really cannot make any

10 complaint about these gentlemen. However, others came from elsewhere who

11 beat us.

12 Q. All right.

13 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, if I can just finish with one or two

14 clarifying questions, then perhaps we could take the break.

15 Q. Witness, you just told us - and that was my next question - during

16 the approximate 15 days that you were held at this location, were you

17 taken to perform labour at one or more locations?

18 A. All of us were taken to do forced labour. We were taken to the

19 front line and made to dig trenches and communication trenches. All of us

20 had to go and dig trenches. However, I should say once again that they

21 were more or less fair. They didn't force us in a brutal way, especially

22 when I told them I had been at the Croatian front. He would bring me beer

23 or coffee. Once again, I have to say that they were nice people. But

24 there was a group of people who came to beat us, a gang of men, people who

25 used to be members of the HOS, which was a paramilitary formation.

Page 6191

1 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. I suggest we can stop

2 there.

3 JUDGE LIU: We'll resume at quarter to 12.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 11.21 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.47 p.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

7 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Witness QQ, before the break, you said that while some of the

9 people at the school treated you and the other prisoners well, or fairly,

10 at least, that there were others who came to the school who abused or

11 mistreated you and other prisoners. Can you tell us the names or about

12 any particular incidents in which that happened?

13 A. Well, I can. I remembered in particular one young man whose name

14 was Dugonjic, an evil man, very dangerous, who beat us very badly. I had

15 been a karate man for a while, and I can take hits, but this was bad

16 beating. He tied me once to my bed and hit me with clubs, with his

17 hands.

18 They took people out as well. I noticed that on one occasion, two

19 or three men were missing, and there were traces of blood in the room. In

20 the morning, I noticed that an attempt was made to wash it off. But in

21 the morning, we didn't dare comment. We kept quiet, though. It was Croat

22 against Croat. I was disappointed. One man came and asked us to tell how

23 we were mistreated, and we told him. There were also young men who were

24 found guilty of theft, and they were kept separately. They were allowed

25 to beat us too. That's what I can tell you, as far as Tomislavgrad is

Page 6192

1 concerned.

2 Q. This man named Dugonjic, what --

3 A. That was his nickname or his last name. I don't know that. I

4 remembered that man very well. Other people came too, such as one Robi.

5 I found out he was from Siroki Brijeg or Citluk. He also beat us badly.

6 He broke two of my ribs once.

7 Q. Well, one further final question on Dugonjic, and then I'll go

8 forward to Robi. Can you identify what military unit or formation that

9 Mr. Dugonjic was part of, if you know?

10 A. He wore a white belt too, and he had two or three HVO badges with

11 the sign of crossed rifles, and all of them were mixed, HOS, HVO, HV,

12 until a conflict arose.

13 There was another Tomo, a nice man, who knew me and protected me.

14 He gave me some bandages and cloth to put on my broken ribs.

15 Q. All right. Witness, I'm going to stop you there. When you

16 mentioned the fact that he wore a white belt, was that an indication to

17 you of someone being military police?

18 A. Certainly. Even in Tito's time, the military police, the current

19 one and the past one, they always wore white belts. Everyone knows that,

20 even children.

21 Q. You've mentioned already that other soldiers, other persons, would

22 come to the -- this location, this facility, and be allowed -- or at

23 least -- strike that. And beat prisoners. My question is: Do you know

24 how it is that they were allowed access to the prisoners?

25 A. Yes, yes. Well, you see, it was chaos. Everybody tried to cheat

Page 6193

1 everybody, to control more territory, to have more place for looting. I

2 don't know how they entered the school building, but they would come in

3 drunk and beat people for kicks, and they took out their anger for all --

4 for their lost loved ones on us. I can resist, and I can hold my own in a

5 fight, but I was tied down, and sometimes they beat me so bad that I

6 couldn't take it any more.

7 Q. Will you go back to this man Robi. How did you know him or come

8 to know him, and what did he do?

9 A. He beat us the most, together with Dugonjic. Once when I lost

10 consciousness and fell on the ground, somebody told Robi, "Leave him

11 alone. Let him die." I can tell you a lot about this Robi.

12 Q. Did you know at that time or come to know the military unit that

13 he was part of, this Robi?

14 A. Yes. I learned later that he was from the Convicts Battalion, the

15 KB.

16 Q. And how did you learn that? What do you base that on?

17 A. I saw him at Siroki Brijeg. I also saw him in Mostar. I am good

18 at remembering faces.

19 Q. The times when this Robi beat you, was he asking you questions or

20 trying to get information from you, or did you have any understanding why

21 it was that he was treating you in this way?

22 A. I noticed there was no purpose to it. He was beating me just

23 because I was a Muslim. He said, "You Muslims, what are you doing to

24 us?" He would come in drunk. He had no -- not a humane bone in him.

25 Q. All right. Now, Witness QQ, I want to move us forward a bit.

Page 6194

1 After this about 15 days when you were held at the school, were you and

2 some of the other prisoners then moved to another detention facility in

3 Ljubuski?

4 A. Yes. A nice young man took the 11 of us who had been taken off

5 the bus, he took us in this van and gave us food. I cannot remember his

6 name. I don't think he told us. He turned us over to the Ljubuski

7 prison. It's an old prison; I noticed by the door. So he took us to

8 Ljubuski.

9 Q. When you arrived in Ljubuski, were there other prisoners already

10 there? I'm not asking you for any names right now, just saying did you

11 find there were already prisoners there?

12 A. There are many, many people from Mostar, many people who were

13 beaten up.

14 Q. All right.

15 A. I know a lot of them.

16 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, could we go to private session for a

17 moment or two?

18 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session.

19 [Private session]

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Page 6195













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20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.


23 Q. Witness QQ, can you give us an approximate number of how many

24 prisoners were moved to Heliodrom with you about that time?

25 A. Well, approximately 300 or more. Perhaps even 500. There were

Page 6197

1 five or four buses and trucks that transported the people. I was in one

2 of the trucks. Say if one bus can carry 50 passengers under normal

3 circumstances, this time they would load up to 100 people. And we were

4 promised to be released. That is what they told us, that they were going

5 to release us -- I'm sorry, to exchange us.

6 Q. And were you, in fact, released or exchanged at that time?

7 A. Of course not. We ended up in a much worse camp to the Heliodrom,

8 at Rodoc, where this ex-air force unit was -- used to be located, next to

9 a metal factory. It was a military barracks at the time.

10 Q. Did you find, either among the men that you were -- the persons

11 that you were moved with from Ljubuski to the Heliodrom or at the

12 Heliodrom - and you can assist us with any clarification - did you find

13 that a number of those men were from Zepce?

14 A. You mean Muslims? The detainees?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. There were two or three from Zepce. Later on, other buses arrived

17 carrying 150 people, thereabouts. I know quite a few of those people.

18 They were from the village of Lug, near the village of Zepce, that had

19 been taken over by Croats, and also the village of Vrbica. They were

20 transported through the Serb territory via Teslic. There must have been

21 an agreement between Croats and Serbs. They were attacking the town of

22 Zavidovici and captured those two villages. So they rounded up all

23 able-bodied men and loaded them onto buses and took them to Ljubuski and

24 Dretelj, and from Dretelj to the Heliodrom. They took them to various

25 places. I know quite a few people from that group. But there were three

Page 6198

1 men from Zepce with me in my group.

2 Q. All right. Witness, just a couple of follow-up questions on

3 that. Were you able to determine during the time you were held, were all

4 of these men from Zepce? Both the ones you travelled with and the ones

5 who were brought -- you say that were brought there to Heliodrom later, do

6 you know whether they were all ABiH soldiers or were they citizens --

7 excuse me, private citizens, or what did you know of their status, if

8 anything?

9 A. I know the situation very well. There were elderly people there,

10 very young people as well. They were all civilians. No one was wearing

11 any uniform. And they told me that they were not members of the army.

12 There were a lot of people in -- living in Zavidovici, and I'm familiar

13 with the situation in Zepce. They didn't have to mobilise everyone. They

14 had enough able-bodied men. So they told me that they had not been

15 captured at the front lines but at their homes. And they wanted to

16 actually have as many people as possible in various camps.

17 Q. And my next question before moving on: You said in order to be

18 moved from Zepce in this way, that these buses or however -- the vehicles

19 they were transported in had to cross through Serb territory. Do you know

20 how that was possible?

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

22 A. Yes, yes. We went --

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object, although I

25 hate to interrupt my learned colleague in his examination, but I do not

Page 6199

1 understand what the relevance of Zepce is for the indictment and the

2 population of Zepce. How relevant is it for our case?

3 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott? What's the relevance in the indictment for

4 this particular question?

5 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, it's relevant in a couple of respects,

6 and I really am almost done. In fact, with this last question, I am done

7 with the questions. It's not something I had any intention to spend a

8 great deal of time on. The relevance is - and part of what we are

9 required to prove - is that these things that were happening were part of

10 a widespread and systematic practices. They were not unique simply to the

11 Mostar area or even Jablanica and the other areas but extended so far away

12 as Zepce, which is in North-Central Bosnia, and many prisoners in our

13 case -- we submit, in our case, in a systematic and widespread way were

14 being collected from all over Bosnia and taken to such places as the

15 Heliodrom.

16 JUDGE LIU: What I mean is that particular question. The question

17 is that the vehicles they were transported in had to cross through Serb

18 territories. Do you know how that was possible?

19 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, the witness may know or may not know, but what's

21 the relevance to this issue? Are you suggesting that even Serbia is

22 involved in this case, so as to prove that the international armed

23 conflict happened?

24 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm not suggesting it for purposes of

25 international armed conflict. I think the Judges, Your Honours, have

Page 6200

1 heard, and I suspect you may hear more in the future, about fighting with

2 the Serbs and how many of these things were justified by the fact that

3 they were fighting against the Serbs, et cetera, and there has been past

4 discussion of that in cross-examination. And the Prosecution case has

5 been, and will be -- that at least in some respects, not all respects, but

6 in a number of significant respects throughout this relevant time period,

7 in fact, the Serbs and the Croats in these areas were not, in fact,

8 fighting and, in fact, were operating quite jointly on numerous

9 occasions.

10 JUDGE LIU: We don't believe this question is relevant to the case

11 we are now hearing. Would you please skip this question.

12 MR. SCOTT: Of course, Mr. President.

13 Q. When you got to the Heliodrom, sir, just give us -- what did you

14 find there and how were you treated in a general way? I'll ask you some

15 specifics, but what did you find when you got to the Heliodrom?

16 A. When we got to the Heliodrom, having left from Siroki Brijeg, we

17 found many prisoners there, including elderly people, women, and

18 children. We were lined up in two rows on an asphalt area. The military

19 police of the HVO distributed us in various places. I learned that it was

20 some kind of Central Military Prison. Some people were put up in school

21 buildings, sports halls. Every single corner of the complex was packed

22 with people that they were rounding up.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [No interpretation]

25 JUDGE LIU: We don't get any translation. Would you please try

Page 6201

1 again.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether I

3 understand correctly what has been said here in the record. I see the

4 words "having left from Siroki Brijeg." Are we talking about two events,

5 the arrival at Ljubuski, because we're following the witness in the

6 Croatian language? Can that be clarified, please? Of course, I can take

7 it up during the cross-examination, because I believe that we're talking

8 about the events Ljubuski and then Heliodrom.

9 JUDGE LIU: To me, it's quite clear. But anyway, Mr. Scott, would

10 you please clear it up.

11 MR. SCOTT: Of course, Mr. President.

12 Q. Witness, you've probably heard the exchanges in the last moment.

13 In your answer just now, you said, when you got to Heliodrom, "having left

14 from Siroki Brijeg." Now, we are going to talk about Siroki Brijeg in the

15 course of your testimony today.

16 A. No, not Siroki Brijeg, but Ljubuski. We were taken from Ljubuski

17 to the Heliodrom. It was only later on that I went to Siroki Brijeg. You

18 asked me about the place that we were transferred from; that is, we were

19 transferred from Ljubuski to the Heliodrom.

20 Q. Witness, you're absolutely right, and thank you for that.

21 A. To the barracks of the aviation of the ex-JNA.

22 Q. Were you -- and I'm talking now about --

23 A. I know I speak very fast. I apologise. It's just the natural way

24 I speak. But I'll try and do my best and slow down.

25 Q. Thank you. In the approximate first month that you were at the

Page 6202

1 Heliodrom, were you used to perform forced labour in a number of

2 locations?

3 A. Yes, yes, we did a lot of forced labour. I spent a lot of time at

4 the Heliodrom. That month, we spent a lot of time digging trenches around

5 the barracks in various ditches, but we were also taken to other places.

6 Q. Did there come a time, after a few weeks, that you were assigned

7 to work in the kitchen?

8 A. Yes. There were four or five Orthodox people there, Serbs. One

9 was from Prijedor but was eventually exchanged. He was wearing a

10 uniform. But since many soldiers knew me, I was sort of protected, and I

11 was sent to the kitchen to work there. So I spent quite some time working

12 as a cook there and distributing food.

13 Q. In that regard, were you involved in taking food to other

14 prisoners in a number of locations even outside the Heliodrom?

15 A. Yes. I would take food two or three times outside the Heliodrom,

16 some daily rations, things like that. There was a soldier whose name I

17 don't want to mention who sometimes came with me. Once we went to the Hum

18 mountain above Mostar. I remember distributing food to the soldiers

19 there. I remember I had a hangover that day. I went to one of the

20 dugouts there and sat down with them. I didn't emphasise that in my

21 statement. Anyway, there are so many things that I didn't mention in my

22 statement. I never thought that I would be called here to testify. It's

23 not that I really wanted to come. But anyway, I came here to speak up. I

24 haven't come because of myself but because of others who have died.

25 I have lived in over 20 countries. I used to like to work, and I

Page 6203












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Page 6212

1 used to like people in general. But things happened the way they did.

2 There's nothing I can do about it.

3 Q. Witness QQ, thank you for that. Let me ask you about one

4 particular location. Did you ever have to take food to some place called

5 the mechanical engineering faculty in Mostar?

6 A. Not directly from the Heliodrom. This soldier gave me some of

7 it. We went to the university building . I don't know which university

8 it was - he went to university; I think he was an engineer - since I had

9 never been in Mostar before the war and I don't know Mostar very well.

10 Q. Did you meet any sort of an HVO officer at this - I'll just say

11 your term - at the university at this time when you delivered food there?

12 A. I used to meet a lot of officers. I met Mr. Stela. I knew him.

13 He had some kind of headquarters there, red building whose name I don't

14 know. I wasn't interested in that. Yes, I did meet quite a few of them,

15 including Tuta on a couple of occasions. I knew several of those

16 officers. I would meet them from time to time. But not many of them

17 openly displayed any rank, because they were trying to keep them secret.

18 Stela was a colonel by rank at that time, and he said that we should

19 respect him as a colonel.

20 Q. All right. Well, Witness QQ, let me come back to these men in a

21 few minutes. Did you ever meet a person named Juka Prazina at the

22 university location?

23 A. Oh, yes, I did. Sorry, I forgot him. Now, that's an evil man, a

24 Muslim, but an evil man.

25 Q. And can you tell the Chamber any exchange or conversation you

Page 6213

1 might have had with Mr. Prazina?

2 A. Prazina beat the Muslims more than HVO soldiers did. He was the

3 worst. He quarrelled with the BH army and was leading an independent

4 brigade. He had a conflict with Vehbija Karic, a colonel of the BH army

5 at the Mount Igman. A relative of mine used to be a major in the old

6 army, and I learned many such things from him. He was later on

7 transferred to Salakovac, to the checkpoint there. He was very soon

8 transferred and went over to Juka's unit. He was also a colonel. He was

9 addressed by other people as a colonel. And such people received very

10 often promotion during this war.

11 Q. Let me take you back to this Mr. Juka. My question to you was:

12 Do you remember having any conversation with Juka at the time you saw him

13 around the university?

14 A. He wasn't quite accessible. Juka Prazina didn't like to talk to

15 Muslims very much. He didn't want us to approach him. He came to the

16 Heliodrom on several occasions and beat people, but I have to be -- I have

17 to tell the truth: He didn't beat me.

18 Q. Did you know at that time or come to learn about any relationship

19 that Juka had with the man called Tuta?

20 A. Yes. Yes, of course.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm objecting to the

23 leading of the witness in a way which really warrants a vigorous objection

24 on my part.

25 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I can't very well ask this man to go

Page 6214

1 through a long list of names of everyone he spoke to. I have to direct

2 him somehow to the pertinent part of his testimony. I didn't try to

3 suggest anything specific, other than mention a name in order to guide the

4 witness's testimony in that respect.

5 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, at this stage, we come upon the names of

6 the accused, so I want you to be very careful to avoid any leading

7 questions in this respect.

8 MR. SCOTT: Very well, Your Honour. Let me rephrase it.

9 Q. You said you knew Juka Prazina. Did you come to know --

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Did you come to know of what military formation he was part of and

12 any other officers that he was associated with?

13 A. The Convicts Battalion, of course, with Tuta, Stela, many other

14 HVO officers. He was quick as a cat. He could be seen at various places,

15 here and there.

16 Q. I'm sorry, and who is the "he" you're referring to now?

17 A. I don't understand.

18 Q. You said, sir -- just now, you said, "He was quick as a cat. He

19 could be seen at various places."

20 A. Juka, Juka, Juka Prazina. Sorry. Sorry. I didn't express myself

21 well. Juka Prazina.

22 Q. Now, did there come a time when you were registered -- visited and

23 registered by the Red Cross at the Heliodrom?

24 A. Yes. On the 3rd of June.

25 MR. SCOTT: If I can have the usher's assistance please. I think

Page 6215

1 we have them here still. There are two exhibits I'd like to be provided

2 to the witness, P889 and P752.2. We have copies.

3 For the Registrar, 889 and 752.2.

4 And I'll ask that they not be put on the ELMO and that they be

5 received under seal because they will identify the witness.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Are these new exhibits?

7 MR. SCOTT: I believe they may be, yes.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters have a copy, please?

9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Usher?

10 Mr. President, I was just waiting to see that the booths had been

11 provided. I think I see that they have, yes.

12 Q. Witness, if I can direct your attention, first of all, to P889.

13 Again I'm going to caution you not to say anything about your name, but

14 can you confirm and -- obviously looking at the original document

15 attached, if you turn to the second page, can you tell the Chamber what

16 that is?

17 A. This is an identity card of the Red Cross. It has two parts. One

18 part is what they get to keep, and the other part is for us. We had to

19 sign this other part, and it is all the -- all of the data are entered

20 into a computer which is based in Geneva.

21 Q. And you say you recall being registered on approximately the 3rd

22 of June, 1993?

23 A. Yes, on the 3rd of June, yes, 1993.

24 Q. Will you please look at the next document, 752.2, and tell us what

25 that is?

Page 6216

1 A. This one here -- sorry, what this is, this is a letter from the

2 Red Cross in Geneva. I was given this in Zagreb as I got out, and got the

3 certificate from Tuta that I could be released on the 16th of February,

4 1994. So I went there to ask them for this official letter, because other

5 international organisations needed it. I had to have it.

6 Q. All right. Now, I have no more questions about those documents,

7 so you can put those to one side.

8 Did you come to know some of the leading guards or commanders at

9 the Heliodrom during the time that you were detained there?

10 A. Yes, quite a few of them. Quite a few.

11 Q. Can you name some of them, please?

12 A. There was a guy by the name of Ante Smiljanic, and as far as I

13 could tell he was one of -- he was a guard command of this military

14 police, people who guarded us. Buhovac. Then Miro Marjanovic, an ugly

15 guy. Then there was a Boro, Boro Saba, something like that. I remember

16 him as well. Then another one by the name of Skender, or nicknamed

17 Skender, I don't know.

18 Q. Now, in naming those particular ones, what is it about them that

19 causes them to stick in your memory, perhaps more than others?

20 A. They ran this camp. They said something to the effect that I was

21 finding other people -- they were taking gold. There were a lot of people

22 who used to work abroad, like myself, in Germany, Iraq even, and they

23 brought me a crate of beer and they brought me some roasted pork. They

24 asked me if I ate pork, and I told them that I was a Hindu, that I could

25 eat anything when I'm hungry. He said, "Could the two of us do

Page 6217

1 business?" That's what Smiljanic, Boro said. I said, "What kind of

2 business?" He said, "These guys who are with you, are they willing to pay

3 each 10.000 German marks for me to take them to the border at Bregana?

4 Perhaps they have family or relatives in Germany. I will call them from

5 Zagreb. We can make contact. They -- all they have to do is bring the

6 money." And that's how many people were released and taken away. And he

7 promised me that I would be released if I bring him a lot of such people.

8 There was a young man from Travnik. It's not important who he

9 really is, but --

10 Q. Excuse me --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


13 Q. I did not want to interrupt you earlier, but again, let us come

14 back to that.

15 MR. SCOTT: It is something, Mr. President, the Chamber will hear

16 more about, but I think better a bit later.

17 Q. In talking about these men that you've named a few moments ago -

18 Smiljanic, Buhovac, Marjanovic - how did they treat the prisoners at the

19 Heliodrom, in your experience?

20 A. Badly, badly. There were some nice guys, I have to say, but I

21 don't want to give you their names, members of the military police, people

22 who gave us some food to eat, some modest food, rice and lentils. I lost

23 23 kilos in those days. However, others were very bad, and they treated

24 us badly. Miro Marjanovic, for instance. He was a dangerous guy, very,

25 very dangerous.

Page 6218

1 Q. Can I direct you --

2 A. They caused a lot of trouble.

3 Q. My apology, there was a pause in translation. I thought it was

4 finished. I'm sorry. Let me direct your attention to -- in the building

5 or around the location where you were held, were there some solitary

6 cells?

7 A. There were at least ten solitary cells, partitioned, prepared in

8 advance, with metal doors and tin installed beforehand. Downstairs there

9 was a kitchen. There were even two or three women in solitary

10 confinement. There were a lot of people there, all kinds of people.

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 Q. I'm going to cut you off for a moment before you name a lot of

14 names.

15 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, could I ask that the last line or two

16 please be redacted, and then can we go into private session for a moment?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will redact those two lines, and we will go

18 to the private session.

19 MR. SCOTT: Thank you very much.

20 [Private session]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 6219













13 Page 6219 redacted private session













Page 6220













13 Page 6220 - redacted private session













Page 6221

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we are now in the open session.


13 Q. Witness QQ, I don't want you to name any names or give any

14 particular details at the moment but just respond generally to this

15 question: The women that you knew to be prisoners at the Heliodrom that

16 you've named, and generally speaking, in the last few minutes, do you know

17 whether they were sexually mistreated?

18 A. Yes. Yes, I know.

19 Q. Can you identify any of the HVO soldiers who were - again, I'm not

20 going to ask you for any specific incidents - but some of the HVO soldiers

21 who were involved in that activity?

22 A. Miro Marijanovic, yes.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

24 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I've let this go on for

25 some time, but this is not within the scope of the indictment. These are

Page 6222

1 not allegations which have been specifically alleged. We are surprised

2 about this testimony, and I object. It's just not relevant. The

3 probative value is so far outweighed by the prejudicial effect that the

4 accused cannot receive a fair trial if this kind of evidence is going to

5 be coming in.

6 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek, I have to tell you that you have two

7 counsels on your team. Only one should deal with one witness mainly. The

8 second thing, we don't know whether it's really relevant or not to this

9 very case, but we would like to hear the answer from this witness.

10 Witness, you may answer the question.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which question?

12 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, if I may?

13 Q. The question that I last put to you, Witness, was: Can you

14 identify any of the HVO soldiers who were involved in sexually mistreating

15 the women prisoners, the female prisoners?

16 A. Ante Smiljanic, Miro Marijanovic. They were vicious. They had an

17 understanding. They had a room downstairs where they took women, taking

18 turns. I peeped through a keyhole. I was curious. Any woman who didn't

19 want to go into that room, solitary confinement room, got a slap on the

20 face.

21 Q. All right. Witness, I'm not going to pursue that further.

22 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I was trying to take it very generally,

23 and that's as far as I will take it.

24 Q. Now, can you tell the Chamber, please, did you ever come across a

25 man who was being held at the Heliodrom during this time? He was an imam

Page 6223

1 called Mezet?

2 A. Mezet, yes, there was Mezet. There was Ahmet Biber. There were

3 several imams. Mezet was from Rodoc. He had two sons.

4 Q. Can you tell us what happened to the Imam Mezet?

5 A. On two occasions, they took him out and beat him up.

6 Q. Do you know why?

7 A. Because he took a second helping. That was not allowed. He

8 cheated and got a second helping. That's why.

9 Q. I want to direct your attention, please, to the latter part of

10 July 1993. Were you taken from the Heliodrom to perform forced labour

11 about that time?

12 A. Yes. I was taken to do a lot of forced labour.

13 Q. Can you tell us what you recall about that day in particular?

14 What I'd like you to do, sir, on this -- because I don't want to lead --

15 what lawyers might call lead you through this too much, except to give you

16 the opportunity to say what happened on that day. If you can just start

17 with the beginning of the day. You were taken from the Heliodrom into

18 Mostar; is that correct?

19 A. They took us down to Santiceva Street, the Bulevar. I remember

20 those streets. There were several trucks full of people. Some dug

21 trenches. Some filled bags. Some covered walls and made holes in the

22 walls so that HVO soldiers can easily pass from room to room.

23 Q. Did you see -- well, where did you go during that morning, if you

24 recall?

25 A. That morning, I was told that I needed to help some people carry

Page 6224

1 some packages. And I found myself in the middle of all that commotion. I

2 was forced to go dig trenches, fortify the line. There were a lot of

3 works that needed doing. I didn't have time to eat or anything.

4 Q. Did you come across a prisoner named Zikro Karso?

5 A. Yes, yes. He was --

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to the

8 question and to what follows, considering that a man and an incident are

9 concerned who have absolutely no relevance to the indictment. It is

10 disputable whether this person existed at all.

11 We are now supposed to hear about another alleged murder which

12 does not feature in the indictment. It is mentioned nowhere in the

13 indictment. And I believe it is another attempt to create a false image

14 in order to mislead the Trial Chamber. It is our case that this event

15 never happened, and it is described nowhere in the indictment, nor is

16 anything of the sort alleged by the Prosecutor when he enumerated the

17 counts in the indictment that this witness will cover. I would appreciate

18 it very much if we could remain within the scope of the indictment.

19 THE WITNESS [Interpretation] Can I respond?

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, we also have some questions

21 concerning the series of questions. First of all, you asked about the

22 later days of July; then you mentioned about a certain date. But we don't

23 know what is the specific date of that day this incident happened. So you

24 might clear it up for us.

25 Secondly, could you give us some explanation about the questioning

Page 6225

1 of that prisoner named Zikro Karso? You have to understand the Defence

2 counsel will put their case in their defence.

3 MR. SCOTT: Of course, Mr. President. I did -- I will come back

4 to the date, and I wanted to give, frankly, the witness the opportunity to

5 say the date as much as possible himself, but I will ask him to clarify it

6 as much as he can.

7 In terms of the question, this series of questions, first off,

8 Mr. President, this -- there has been fair notice for all the reasons

9 we've discussed before about the nature of the allegations in the

10 indictment. This account is also clearly stated and described in the 65

11 ter witness summaries that were provided to counsel a long time ago. So

12 this comes as no surprise to anyone.

13 Thirdly, what this witness -- what I expect this witness to say,

14 based on prior statements, is that this very -- reflects very much on

15 Mr. Martinovic, not because he personally killed this man - and it will

16 not be our position - but that he was present, that this was carried out

17 by one of his subordinates and he saw it happen, did nothing to prevent

18 it, did nothing to punish it, and that's directly related to his being a

19 superior who failed to prevent or punish acts of his subordinates. It's

20 directly relevant to that.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

22 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours, I not

23 only object to the question, I also protest against what the Prosecutor

24 just said because he has begun to testify himself. Of course we got

25 summaries of statements of all witnesses, but they don't mean anything to

Page 6226

1 us. They give us no warning at all.

2 Mr. President, Your Honours, not in a single count of the

3 indictment is this event mentioned, not even the date, not even the man.

4 At no point have we been warned that this witness will be testifying today

5 about this matter.

6 Mr. President, we have always had the opportunity to use some sort

7 of special defence and claim that our client was in a different place at

8 the time. So he could have defended himself by alibi or otherwise. But

9 today, we don't have that possibility because we don't have this in the

10 indictment. If it's not in the indictment, then why should something be

11 imposed on us out of the blue as a new problem? How are we to defend

12 ourselves? How are we to conduct the cross? The fact that the Prosecutor

13 provided us with statements including references to this incident means

14 nothing until the witness comes here to testify live, in voce.

15 It is an aperto capite, this time again. This has been happening

16 to us all the time in this case, from the video, from some witnesses who

17 speak about events which have nothing to do with us. What are we to

18 defend ourselves from? After two-thirds of the evidence and witnesses

19 have been presented, we only now find out that we are just to begin

20 defending ourselves, just to begin conducting our investigations in order

21 to defend ourselves from these facts. We are only now learning about this

22 incident. If you allow this, Honourable Judges, if you allow examination

23 regarding a murder which I claim de facto and de jure is inadmissible,

24 then I kindly ask you, please, give us a deadline for appeal, for

25 clarification. Give us some time to investigate where our client was at

Page 6227

1 that moment. Charge it so that we can defend ourselves. This way, I

2 really don't know what to do.

3 I, as Defence counsel, I had to question my own integrity as an

4 attorney at law, as Defence counsel. I am beginning to think that I'm not

5 in a position to defend my client.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is not the first

8 time that the Defence is addressing the Trial Chamber in its impotence,

9 helplessness. I absolutely share the view of my colleague, and we are now

10 seriously discussing how to go on with this defence, and we are exchanging

11 views with our clients as well, and between us. What are we to do if this

12 is going to continue? This Tribunal should set the standard in the legal

13 world, instead of putting us in the situation in which we are today. And

14 we are truly thinking, as my colleague Seric said, that perhaps we ought

15 to simply give all this up.

16 We are being watched by the entire world. The judgement will

17 become history tomorrow. We are learning new rules every day from various

18 legal systems. We cannot go on unprepared. We really can't. We are

19 being told that everything has been given to us in advance. That's not

20 true. This witness is saying things, half of which are not in his

21 statement. You know very well that we are doing our homework, Honourable

22 Judges. You know that we are doing our best to keep within the schedule,

23 to meet our obligations towards the clients, to honour our code of ethics,

24 but we really cannot go on this way any longer.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, first of all, I have to say that I will

Page 6228

1 guarantee you that you will have full opportunity to defend your client in

2 a later stage on this very issue. If you could have alibi on this case,

3 we are very glad to hear this witness in the future.

4 There is another thing I want to make sure, which is that --

5 whether this incident is properly informed to the Defence counsel in a

6 timely manner. I think that's the very issue we are going to discuss

7 about, so that to allow the Defence counsel to have enough time to prepare

8 their case. We should avoid any surprise attack or pre-emptive attack

9 before this trial.

10 Yes, Mr. Scott?

11 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I hear a lot of noise, but it has

12 nothing to do with the facts or the law applicable to this situation. The

13 indictment is clear. We have discussed this point before. This is

14 something that has come up, as the Chamber well knows now, over the last

15 several weeks. It was discussed extensively again yesterday or the day

16 before in connection with the paragraphs of the indictment which I read to

17 the Chamber at that time. Those exacts same paragraphs clearly apply

18 here, and other paragraphs in the indictment as well. There has been

19 complete and fair notice.

20 It is apparently counsel's view that the jurisprudence of the

21 Tribunal would require an indictment to essentially be a bill of

22 evidence. We would have to put out -- we would have to list every

23 incident, every witness, every -- we would have to put out our evidence in

24 the indictment, to prove such things as superior authority, to prove such

25 things as notice, to prove a course and pattern of conduct by which this

Page 6229

1 accused -- these accused clearly knew that these things were taking place,

2 and not only did they know, but they turned a blind eye and a deaf ear to

3 these things over and over and over again.

4 Now, I do not believe that is the jurisprudence of this

5 institution. That would turn an indictment into hundreds of pages of

6 documents, listing every --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down for the interpreters.

8 MR. SCOTT: My apology. Every incident, every witness, every

9 document, every exhibit that we intend to put in to prove our case.

10 Now, just as counsel apparently the other day had not read the

11 indictment, they apparently have not recently read the 65 ter summaries as

12 well. 65 ter summaries were filed more than a year ago.

13 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry, Mr. Scott, before you go on to that, I don't

14 have the indictment with me. That's not an issue. Could you direct me to

15 a count in the indictment which uses the word "killings"? Just remind me

16 of that. I'm sorry I don't have the indictment with me. I usually do.

17 MR. SCOTT: No problem, Your Honour. Just a moment please.

18 First of all, Your Honour, it's in a number of places, but

19 starting with counts 2 through 8 and the very paragraphs I referred the

20 Chamber to earlier. Paragraphs 35 through 44, all touch on these

21 matters. And the specific counts, to answer Your Honour Judge Clark's

22 question, are: Count 6, murder, crime against humanity; count 7, wilful

23 killing, a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions; and count 8, murder, a

24 violation of the laws or customs of war. There are also killing counts,

25 if you will, in count 13, count 14, and count 15. I believe those, Your

Page 6230

1 Honours, are the counts that mention that.

2 Mr. President, the 65 -- what this institution does have is, after

3 asking for a concise indictment, there are a number of disclosure rules.

4 One of those is 65 ter, which requires plainly that the Prosecution, and

5 at the appropriate time the Defence, state its case and state -- give

6 further outlines of the evidence for these very purposes, not that would

7 be in the indictment but that would be in other documents related to the

8 case.

9 More than one year ago, when Judge Wald was still the Pre-Trial

10 Judge in this case, the Prosecution filed 65 ter witness summaries. I

11 don't have those in front of me at the moment, but I am fairly confident

12 that this matter was specifically disclosed as to this witness. I don't

13 want to state with certainty, because I don't want to give the Court more

14 assurance than I properly should, without having the document in front of

15 me.

16 I do have in front of me, however, the document that was filed,

17 the amended 65 ter list of witnesses, filed on the 16th of August of

18 2001. I direct the Chamber - and again, I will not, of course, mention

19 the witness's name - but to page 55 and 56 of those summaries. And the

20 Chamber will quite plainly see that exactly this incident is described in

21 the top part of the box on page 56. There has been complete notice,

22 probably more than a year ago, certainly since August, and I'm afraid

23 that, again, counsel sometimes just makes claims and representations to

24 the Chamber that just simply aren't true. The document is there. If I've

25 misread something, I please invite everyone, perhaps during the lunch

Page 6231

1 hour, Mr. President -- those summaries can be reviewed. And again, I

2 direct the Chamber's particular attention to page 55 and 56, and I think

3 you will see that it is there in black and white. Thank you.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, we are a few minutes past the time. We will

5 resume at 2.30 this afternoon.

6 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.03 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 2.43 p.m.

8 JUDGE LIU: We apologise for the delay.

9 Mr. Seric.

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for allowing

11 me to address the Chamber, in particular in view of the allegations made

12 by the Prosecutor. At the outset, let me just state that there seems to

13 have been an incident, if I may call it that way, because prior to leaving

14 the courtroom, the witness turned to the accused and showed him his

15 tongue. And then my client replied by asking him, "Are you afraid of

16 God -- aren't you afraid of God?" I'm just telling you this because I

17 don't want anything happening in this courtroom over which we wouldn't

18 have any control.

19 During the break, I really tried to concentrate myself as best as

20 I could so that I can make my statement now in a most impartial and

21 disinterested way. I have to respond to what my learned colleague has

22 stated prior to the break. It is true, Mr. President, that we received

23 witness statements well ahead of time and that we had sufficient time for

24 us to take all that material into account. However, at the moment we

25 receive such material, such statements, we are not in a position to know

Page 6232

1 whether the Prosecutor -- and such things have already happened in the

2 past and now we are nearing the end of Prosecutor's case. We will be

3 working until two weeks after the New Year's eve.

4 What I'm saying is that the Prosecutor, by leading the witness

5 through the examination-in-chief, sometimes skipped large portions of

6 their statements. So at the moment we receive the statements, we do not

7 know which parts of the statements would eventually be used at trial and

8 on which parts of the statement he will eventually base his

9 examination-in-chief. So the result of the examination-in-chief, the

10 final examination-in-chief will constitute the basis on which you make

11 your findings, Your Honour. So I do admit that we did receive the

12 statement of this witness. However, in situation when we do not know what

13 the Prosecutor intends to skip and what he intends to use as the basis of

14 his examination-in-chief, I must say that this is, formally speaking, the

15 first time for us that we become aware of such events.

16 In addition to the objections that we had to the indictment, we

17 strongly object to some very vague allegations. My learned friend from

18 the Prosecution has stated the relevant paragraphs and relevant counts,

19 such as the count -- counts 2 to 8, unlawful labour and human shields, and

20 inhumane treatment or willful killing, persecution and willful causing of

21 great suffering. We have in counts 13 to 17 -- so in addition to these

22 crimes, we also have murder in counts 13 to 17.

23 When the Prosecutor is alleging the legal term of "murder" in

24 respect of which he wishes to examine this witness, he is not referring to

25 the proper legal qualification of the act, which is required if we wish to

Page 6233

1 speak of the murder as a crime in the indictment as it is stated in

2 counts 13 to 17. For example, in count 13 to 17, we have the name of the

3 victim, we have the specific date, and we have the specific event. And

4 this was specifically charged in the indictment by the Prosecutor. So

5 that is one example.

6 However, we have had several cases, including what happened today,

7 when Prosecutor stated that there were so many victims that it was simply

8 impossible for him to enumerate in the indictment all of their names. I

9 could, perhaps, agree with that statement had my client been, for example,

10 the commander of a concentration camp. Your Honours, I participated in a

11 criminal case in Croatia involving the last living commander of a

12 concentration camp from the Second World War, a case involving several

13 thousands of victims. And it is perfectly clear to me that the Prosecutor

14 could not enumerate all of those several thousand victims who died in the

15 concentration camp, nor could the Court take that into account.

16 However, we have a completely different situation here. My client

17 is held responsible for specific acts, for specific crimes and in respect

18 of specific individuals. And I really have to state, with all due respect

19 to my learned colleague from the Prosecution, that this only testifies to

20 the inability of the Prosecutor to specifically charge for the event.

21 They do not have relevant evidence - they do not have the specific death

22 certificate, for example - except for a very vague story of this witness,

23 which cannot be easily corroborated. It's a hollow story of a witness.

24 And, for example, we are now unable to ask questions relating to

25 his credibility. We are unable to -- I mean, unable. We have been

Page 6234

1 objected to when trying to do so, when we try to challenge the credibility

2 of the witness, because the objection then is that the questions are not

3 relevant.

4 Now, today, we are faced with a murder which was not specifically

5 charged in the indictment, and we have this witness here who is testifying

6 to this murder without any other corroborating evidence. It's not just a

7 single incident -- it's a single incident, and there were not many such

8 cases, there were not many such murders, as many as they could not be

9 specified in the indictment. So I'm really wondering if this is the

10 result of something that actually did not happen but is the result of

11 somebody else's underground and behind-the-scene work. And I'm by no

12 means referring to the Prosecution. I would like to make myself perfectly

13 clear about that.

14 If we have counts 13 to 17 involving Nenad Harmandzic, we could

15 easily have had the same type of counts, the same type of legal

16 qualification involving this particular victim. But this is all we have,

17 and with all due respect I state that they do not have evidence for that.

18 Vinko Martinovic could only be found at the front line, at the

19 Health Centre where he was defending his home and his family. I am

20 perfectly aware, Your Honours, that I should not be making any arguments

21 here, any closing arguments, but I'm really trying to do my best, together

22 with my colleagues, to function in a system which respects fairness.

23 I do not have any doubts as to the fair outcome of the trial;

24 however, I have to draw your attention to the fact that we need to have a

25 fair trial from 9.30 in the morning until 1600 in the afternoon. We

Page 6235

1 should respect the principle of equality of arms and we should also have

2 the right to defence. I really, in all earnestness, appeal to you, Your

3 Honour, to guarantee our right to respond to the charges and to offer our

4 adequate defence.

5 However, we are now faced in the situation where my client is

6 being led into a very unfair position. Charges and allegations are being

7 constantly made throughout these proceedings, new charges, new events.

8 The framework of the events should be explicitly specified in the

9 indictment. We cannot simply allow hollow testimonies with no appropriate

10 corroborating evidence to be heard in this trial. Here we are dealing

11 with an event which is not going to be addressed by anyone else, nor do we

12 have any other piece of evidence to support this allegation, nor was this

13 allegation pled in the indictment, because the legal qualification, as it

14 is, does not cover this particular event. It simply does not correspond

15 to the factual basis of the case, of this particular event, and I beg to

16 disagree with my learned colleague from the Prosecution on this particular

17 issue.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE LIU: Any response, Mr. Scott?

20 MR. SCOTT: Only very briefly, Your Honour, because I'm not going

21 to repeat all the points that have been made in the last several days, and

22 I'm sure the Chamber probably doesn't want me to repeat all that. A

23 couple of things just to clarify, because I was able to check a couple of

24 things during the lunch hour.

25 The statement of this witness was provided to the Martinovic

Page 6236

1 Defence on the 1st of November, 1999, more than two years ago. The

2 statement was then provided to the Naletilic Defence for the first time on

3 the 30th of May, 2000, approximately one and a half years ago.

4 I was then able also to find the original 65 ter summary, which,

5 with the usher's assistance, I would ask to be distributed to the Chamber

6 and to counsel, if it will assist them.

7 On the 11th of October, 2000, Mr. President, Your Honours, more

8 than one year ago, the Prosecutor filed its first list of witnesses

9 pursuant to Rule 65 ter. You'll note by the service sheet, if I can call

10 it that, with the registrar's information on the front page that it was,

11 indeed, filed and distributed to Mr. Seric and Mr. Krsnik.

12 In the excerpt that I have copied here going to paragraphs --

13 excuse me, pages 55 and 56 concerning this witness's testimony, you will

14 see again there an extensive discussion of what this witness would testify

15 about, including things that he has already touched on, which the Chamber

16 has had an opportunity to hear, the matter in issue now, and other aspects

17 of his testimony, none of which should come as a surprise either to the

18 Defence or, on the Chamber's review of this information, to the Chamber.

19 The basic thrust of this entire witness's evidence, as with virtually all

20 the witnesses, has been laid out for a long time, both for counsel to see

21 and for the Court and its staff to see. So there is no surprise about

22 that, cannot be any unfair surprise about that, we submit.

23 By counsel's logic, Mr. President, they could not know the

24 Prosecution's case or prepare their cross-examination or prepare their

25 case until after the direct examination of each witness was completed,

Page 6237

1 because counsel submits that that is the only time and the first time they

2 know what the Prosecution's case is.

3 Now, Mr. President, respectfully, I submit to you that's not the

4 law and the practice, nor can it be. We cannot have a set of proceedings

5 by which counsel claims that only after the conclusion of the direct

6 examination of each witness, only then can they be prepared to meet the

7 Prosecution's case. We would have to literally stop the trial after every

8 direct examination, if that were the case, until there could be further

9 preparation.

10 In terms of their contesting the facts - and Mr. Seric has quite

11 plainly said they deny that this event ever happened. They contest it -

12 they say there's corroboration. Well, that's a factual dispute, and they

13 will certainly have every opportunity in their case to present their case

14 on this, and the Court will ultimately decide. And at the end of the day,

15 the Chamber may decide that they do not find that the weight of the

16 evidence supports this incident, but that is not a basis not to hear this

17 witness's testimony. They can present their case and make their denials,

18 both through cross-examination, by putting their case to the witness, and

19 in presenting their own case. But I am sure that many things in this case

20 are disputed, and many things in this case, indeed virtually everything,

21 has been denied. But that is not a basis for hearing the Prosecution's

22 evidence. Of course, we have to present our evidence, and then the

23 Chamber will ultimately decide what that evidence shows or does not show.

24 So Mr. President, I've made other -- I've addressed these matters

25 before. We think that there is no question about fair notice. This

Page 6238

1 evidence is clearly relevant to a number of issues in the case, again

2 including such issues as notice, superior authority, and these sorts of

3 things, the acts of their subordinates. And the Chamber should receive

4 them. Thank you.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric, I think we have heard your arguments

7 already, and we heard the response. Do you still want to take the floor?

8 Yes, you may have the floor, please.

9 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Just very

10 briefly, I simply cannot believe that I've heard what I've heard, that we

11 are supposed to prove our innocence.

12 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Seric, I don't think that Mr. Scott said that,

13 and I don't think that anybody could possibly interpret what he said as

14 meaning that. What he has said is that he does not accept the principle

15 which you have argued, that you do not know what evidence the Prosecution

16 is going to call until you hear the evidence. The whole point of the

17 Defence receiving a statement and then a summary and then a list of

18 witnesses is to put you on notice not once but three times of the

19 witnesses that they are going to call.

20 There are rules in relation to what evidence can be called. If it

21 is outside the statement, it can't be called because obviously you're

22 surprised. But if it's within the statement, I'd ask you, Mr. Seric, why

23 you didn't avail of the opportunity to either talk to Mr. Scott and his

24 team informally or to use the pre-trial procedures to raise any motions or

25 objections before the Pre-Trial Judge in relation to evidence which, in

Page 6239

1 your view, was inadmissible because it was more prejudicial than

2 probative. Why did you not do that at that stage?

3 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but I have to say this,

4 Honourable Judge: We did not have the last pre-trial conference which

5 would have given us the opportunity to clear up certain issues either

6 regarding the trial or the timing or any issues like the one you have just

7 raised. Your remark addressed to me is completely appropriate. However,

8 I want to say the following: In the system from which I come from - and

9 I'm in the process of learning here, Honourable Judge - and from what I

10 know, I know that an International Criminal Tribunal is under particular

11 pressure in such cases and the Prosecution is under a lot of pressure,

12 too. Very scrupulous work is required. But what I want to say: I have

13 worked both as a Judge and as a lawyer defending my clients from specific

14 charges, and it is -- it was always stated in this and that period, those

15 charges are alleged, certain crimes were committed.

16 And in my objection to the indictment, which I don't know -- and I

17 don't know how it was supported, and the Pre-Trial Judge Wald also said on

18 several occasions that the indictment is rather too general and imprecise,

19 and that alternative -- and it's full of alternative and cumulative

20 charging. Some charges were even dropped by the Prosecution. But I

21 wanted to see an indictment which would specify specific events

22 transpiring from the supporting material, and if we have got 17 binders

23 full of evidence, and if there is nothing else in that --

24 JUDGE CLARK: We are not dealing with the 17 binders. I'm asking

25 you to address to me specifically why, when you're familiar - as it's

Page 6240

1 clear to me from your answer - with pre-trial procedure, and you appeared

2 before a very experienced judge, and you dealt with various objections to

3 the indictment, including dropping some of the charges, why you didn't

4 raise at that stage your objections which you are raising now at the

5 eleventh hour? Why didn't you raise them then? And I'm asking you why

6 didn't you raise them when you received the summaries, and why didn't you

7 raise your objections before this witness came into court, and when you

8 received notice that he was going to be called, why didn't you raise your

9 objections then?

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I have to reiterate, Honourable Judge,

11 today my colleague has examined the witness in such a way that he didn't

12 follow the sequence of the statement. He skipped certain parts. As I

13 have believed all the time until today, that he will not follow through

14 with the specific event, this specific incident, despite the fact that he

15 announced it, I thought that he simply won't do it because there is no

16 other evidence to support this claim. I simply couldn't believe that he

17 will go on with this story, which comes literally out of the blue. I

18 simply couldn't believe that he would decide eventually to put it on the

19 table, and now I believe that everything is possible.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Do you recall that at the very beginning of this

21 trial, the President encouraged parties on both sides to engage in

22 discussion so you could resolve your differences without taking up court

23 time and issuing motions? Did you attempt to resolve any of your

24 difficulties with Mr. Scott and his assistants before this witness was

25 called?

Page 6241

1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Honourable Judge Clark, not with

2 regard to this witness. I have already said for what reason.

3 JUDGE CLARK: I have a question now to address to Mr. Scott. This

4 issue has come up on a number of occasions, where we have heard, or were

5 about to hear, before we were eloquently dissuaded by Mr. Meek not to do

6 so -- where we were about to hear what was described as evidence that was

7 of such a prejudicial nature that for us to hear it at all would cause

8 irreparable damage. Now, on another occasion, we did hear evidence which

9 to me seemed quite startling, but nobody else seemed to share that view,

10 and it passed, and that was in relation to Mr. Andabak and Mr. Naletilic

11 shooting prisoners at point-blank range, and nobody seemed to have any

12 objection to that, so the evidence went in and we will evaluate it at a

13 later stage.

14 But I wanted to know, Mr. Scott, was that under the umbrella of

15 persecution, which you have in your indictment, under which, in your

16 indictment, you have included the word "murder" and "killings" in the

17 early part of the count? Is it -- I've been reading that part, which, in

18 my view - and this is just my personal view - is relevant to what we are

19 talking about today, rather than counts 2 to 8. In my view persecution

20 would be the umbrella crime where, under 34(B) you refer to murdering and

21 wilfully killing Bosnian Muslims. And also I think you referred to it

22 earlier on. Liu knows where it is, but I think it's referred to earlier

23 on in that part of the indictment as well. But is it the custom of the

24 Prosecution not to actually specify a killing which could, if accepted by

25 the Court, amount to murder when you have a direct witness to the

Page 6242

1 killing? Is it the custom to include that in the umbrella of persecution

2 or to actually list it, as Mr. Seric is arguing?

3 MR. SCOTT: Judge Clark, the answer to your question is: I think

4 I'm not sure I can say there is a custom, to be perfectly candid with the

5 Chamber, given that the practices this institution has evolved and been

6 rather fluid over some years now. I'm not trying to be evasive, but I

7 think that's the honest answer, I submit. It has varied.

8 Obviously, it can be indicated that in some parts of the

9 indictment, such as I turn to, for instance, counts 13 to 17, about

10 Mr. Harmandzic. Obviously, that is quite specific. However, it is our

11 position that there are other parts of the indictment -- and I would agree

12 with you, Judge Clark, and also add that it is covered in the

13 persecutions, but we would respectfully submit that we do believe it's

14 also relevant as to the counts 6, 7, and 8 as well. So I think there are

15 two parts of our argument, and I wouldn't want to completely rely, and

16 don't completely rely, on either one but both, both individually and

17 together.

18 We think there has been fair notice, Judge Clark and Your Honours,

19 Mr. President. I didn't mention -- I failed to mention a while ago

20 because I, indeed, was trying to be quite brief, not to try the Chamber's

21 patience, but I should have noted, as, Judge Clark, you did, there were

22 extensive pre-trial proceedings in this case. Judge Wald presided over a

23 number of hearings a number of status conferences. There were indeed

24 motions challenging the indictment. They were all ruled upon. They were

25 all contested at the time. I have to confess a certain frustration at

Page 6243

1 responding to my learned friend's argument for both accused, because it's

2 always moving. It starts out as a legal issue, and then we are talking

3 about the 17 binders, then we are talking about cumulative charges, then

4 we are talking about alternative charges, and then at the last few

5 minutes, a moment ago, it was the way in which I examined the witness,

6 that I examined a witness in a particular way and apparently it was

7 misleading or deceptive in some way. It's constantly changing. So it's

8 hard to respond to the arguments.

9 I think the indictment is legally sufficient. It has withstood

10 challenges throughout the over a year of pre-trial period. Motions were

11 filed by counsel. They are experienced counsel, admittedly new to this

12 system, as we all are, as we all are. This is a new system for me as

13 well, and I know, Judge Clark, for you and the other. Judges, it's a new

14 system for all of us. But they are experienced and intelligent men and

15 women, and there has been extensive litigation in this case.

16 All these matters could have been resolved a long time ago. I

17 never suggested for one moment that the Defence had to prove their

18 innocence; of course, I would never do that. What the point was is that

19 Mr. Seric seemed to be suggesting that by -- simply by Defence counsel

20 getting up and challenging the evidence of this witness, that somehow we

21 could not have the right to have the evidence. How could we ever

22 proceed? Of course, the Defence has put what might be called a general

23 denial. All we can then do is call our witness, call our evidence, lead

24 the evidence and let the Judges, let you ultimately obviously decide. If

25 the rule was simply every time the Defence disputes something, stands up

Page 6244

1 and says, "We don't accept this witness's testimony," well, then, I guess

2 that's it, it's over.

3 JUDGE CLARK: That's not the right way to do it. There have to be

4 rules of procedure.

5 MR. SCOTT: That's our position, Judge Clark. I hope I've

6 answered your question, and if I haven't, I'll try again. Thank you.

7 JUDGE LIU: After hearing the views from both parties, especially

8 the answers from both parties to Judge Clark's question, we would like to

9 make two things very clear: This matter involves two aspects. One is the

10 procedural matters, the other is the factual disputes. Here, now, we are

11 not discussing the factual disputes at this moment. We understand the

12 Defence counsel have full right to present their case in the best

13 interests of their clients at that later stage, but now we are only

14 dealing with the procedural matters, that is, whether the disclosure

15 procedure is conducted fairly and timely.

16 After hearing the both parties, we believe that those procedures

17 of disclosure was conducted timely and fairly to the Defence counsel. The

18 previous statement was disclosed to the Defence counsel almost two years

19 ago. And the document of the 95 ter summary was disclosed to Defence

20 counsel almost one year and a half ago. And in that document, page 56, it

21 is clearly listed the incidents we are going to hear about. And there

22 were several opportunities, as Judge Clark put it correctly, that Defence

23 counsel could have raised this but they failed. As a normal practice

24 before this Chamber, if there is no response, we will regard it as an

25 implied agreement. We would not like to see any surprise attack happening

Page 6245

1 in this courtroom.

2 There's another matter I would like to mention, that is, the

3 admission of the evidence and evaluation of the evidence at a later

4 stage. Hearing a witness is a matter; whether we put some weight on the

5 testimony of this witness is another. We believe that it is still too

6 early for us to arrive at any conclusions whether the incidents we are

7 going to hear will fill in the count 6, count 7, and count 8 charged in

8 the indictment, but at least we believe in paragraph 34(B), it is clearly

9 stated that some incidents, including murdering and willful killing,

10 happened at the confrontation line in Mostar, which is fitting the

11 count 1, persecution. Based on this reasoning, we have decided to hear

12 the incidents by that witness. It is so decided.

13 Mr. Scott, you may call your witness.

14 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. If the usher can assist,

15 please.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE LIU: Witness, before we start, I have a few words of advice

18 for you. You have to understand now you are before an International

19 Tribunal, and before this Tribunal, all persons should be equal, and the

20 accused should be innocent until proved guilty. So no matter whether

21 the -- whether we are sitting or not sitting, any unfriendly gestures to

22 anybody in this courtroom is not allowed. I understand it might be the

23 first time for you to be in the courtroom or in this Tribunal, but I

24 really hope you could understand and bear in mind what I am saying.

25 Thank you.

Page 6246

1 Yes, Mr. Scott. You may proceed.

2 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

3 Q. Witness QQ, just to bring us back to where we were before the

4 break - and even before that, there had been quite a considerable

5 discussion, so it has been some time since you finished your last

6 testimony - you were talking about a time when you were taken into Mostar

7 and you saw this man named Karso, among other things.

8 And before we proceed, I'm going to ask you if you can assist us,

9 please. Can you be -- give us your best information, as much as you can

10 help us, on the date, the day or the date, when this event occurred and

11 the other events on that day that you are going to tell us about.

12 A. I remember very well, but I have one thing to say, if I may. If

13 there is a recording from when we were standing up, I looked at Stela, and

14 he made a gesture with his head, threatening gesture, and I turned to

15 Mr. Scott to draw his attention. I know a lot about Tuta and Stela, and I

16 even haven't begun telling you. I could fill about 200 pages since I know

17 Tuta, Stela, Andabak, Praljak, all of them, and the late Blaz Kraljevic,

18 but I didn't want to --

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, we quite understand what happened

20 during the break. Now, we are going to hear your testimony. This

21 Tribunal will make an investigation about what happened during the break.

22 You may answer the question put forward by Mr. Scott.

23 A. All right. I'll begin. It was on the 26th of July. Karso got

24 out first off the truck. Several groups were brought from Heliodrom.

25 Fierce fighting went on. There were several occasions like this. Karso

Page 6247

1 was going ahead of me. There was a bridge nearby. I don't know which

2 one. I had never been to Herzegovina before. I have been around a lot,

3 and I know where things happened. And it was when I was digging a ditch

4 for an electrical transmission line or something. There was, together in

5 the cell with me, this guy from Osimitce, Mirsad something, Jakovljevic, I

6 believe, and another man from --

7 Q. First of all, I think --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Scott.


10 Q. You're going to have to slow down a bit, again, for the benefit of

11 the interpreters, please, and those of us in the courtroom who do want to

12 very much follow your testimony. So please slow down.

13 While I appreciate the narrative answer, again it will assist us

14 to take things probably in somewhat smaller pieces. Please go ahead -- I

15 want to give you the opportunity to answer the question slowly, please,

16 but don't go too far before we have a chance to take it in pieces,

17 please.

18 A. All right. I saw one soldier from Zepce. It is wrongly quoted

19 here. It says "70." It's not 70. It's closer to --

20 JUDGE CLARK: Really, you have to -- tell him about the little

21 dot.

22 MR. SCOTT: I have to watch it myself.

23 Q. Witness QQ, there is a number of reasons that make it

24 complicated. Part of them are the protective measures that have been

25 granted for your benefit. For the voice distortion to work -- I should

Page 6248

1 probably have explained this to you sooner, and I apologise. For the

2 voice distortions to work, we cannot be speaking at the same time. I have

3 to turn off my microphone before you can begin to give your answer. If

4 that doesn't happen, there is a chance that your voice will be heard

5 without being distorted. So it is in your own interest, please, that we

6 follow these procedures.

7 Now, if you look toward me please for a moment - if you can look

8 toward me, Witness - you will see on my microphone, there is this red

9 light, and as long as this microphone is on, I'll probably -- I will be

10 asking you a question. I will try to turn it off, as so, and I won't say

11 that I do it perfectly every time, but I will try to turn it off when my

12 question finished. Please do not start answering until you see the red

13 light go off.

14 Also, in addition to being somewhat quick in your speaking, just

15 now you were also dropping off quite to a low level. So not only speak

16 slowly, please, but also keep your voice up. This is only because

17 everyone, including the Chamber, of course, and the Defence, want to hear

18 your testimony. All right?

19 JUDGE CLARK: And the translation, and looking at the screen.

20 MR. SCOTT: If you could also -- it may also assist you -- I know

21 it's a lot to have in mind, and I know you don't read English, but --

22 perhaps, perhaps you do some. But if you also look at the translation --

23 the transcript, excuse me, in front of you on the screen, at least by the

24 words and when they stop and start and the words attributed to me,

25 Mr. Scott, and the words attributed perhaps to others, if you see that

Page 6249

1 stop, that will also give you further indication of what's happening. So

2 I know that's a lot to take in, but assist us, if you can, please.

3 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Scott, if the witness were to go back to that

4 he'd never been to Herzegovina before, and that there was somebody in the

5 cell with him, from then, I think even the translation has a few spaces.

6 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very much.

7 Q. QQ, let me take you back for a moment. You said that you had not

8 been in Herzegovina before, so let me stop you there. And I don't want

9 you to name your home village or anything such as that. You were from a

10 different part, you grew up and spent most of your life in a different

11 part of Bosnia; is that correct, sir? You can just answer that yes or

12 no. Yes?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And so you said you had not been in Herzegovina, at least not very

15 much, before these events in which you were arrested and held during the

16 time that you're telling us about?

17 A. No, never. I just passed through Tomislavgrad on one occasion,

18 but I never stopped or spent any significant amount of time before these

19 events, before the war. Before the shooting started; that's what I'm

20 trying to say.

21 Q. You also mentioned that there was someone in a cell next to you

22 which I think we understood perhaps as someone that provided you

23 information about this, but can you state your answer again about that?

24 What did you mean -- what did you mean to be telling us when you

25 mentioned -- unfortunately, it's gone by on the transcript now, but what

Page 6250

1 did you mean about the person next to you in regard to what you were

2 telling us?

3 A. In the cell in Mostar? Is that what you mean?

4 Q. Well, I think at this point you were talking, presumably, about

5 the Heliodrom, but I can't really assist you. I'm sorry.

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted] Again, for the

11 reasons that we are trying to protect you and other individuals, I need

12 you not to mention those names. So I'll have to ask those be redacted.

13 And then if you can pause and let me ask -- let me put the

14 question to you again very specifically. I'm not asking you to name --

15 I'm not asking you to name any prisoner at the moment, but you made

16 reference a few minutes ago to another prisoner who was in a cell next to

17 you about the same time that you said you had not spent much time in

18 Herzegovina before this. Now, did this witness - without naming his name

19 at the moment -- his or her name at the moment - can you explain how it

20 was that this other prisoner assisted you in this regard, if that's what

21 you intended to say?

22 A. Well, we knew each other for a very long time, and several times

23 he gave me some food. There are other reasons as well. Croat, this

24 prisoner, or a Muslim, that's what I cannot remember, if that's what you

25 have in mind.

Page 6251

1 Q. Excuse me.

2 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Scott, I may have caused all this confusion and

3 I'm really sorry. He was describing a story how he came -- he was in

4 Mostar, where he hadn't been before, or that he wasn't familiar with. He

5 was digging a ditch for electrical transmission line. There was a bridge

6 nearby. And then we -- it's from -- forget about the other prisoner for

7 the moment, and if we just go back to the -- what happened that day. And

8 I'm sorry if I've confused you.

9 MR. SCOTT: Not a problem, of course, Your Honour. I'll try to

10 assist you and the other Judges as much as possible.

11 Q. Witness QQ, let's go back, please, to you're now in Mostar, you've

12 seen this Mr. Karso, you said that you were also -- had been at some point

13 assigned to work in a ditch. Do you remember -- do you remember that?

14 Can we come up to that point?

15 A. Yes, we can. This Karso person was from Zepce. He did some

16 digging and then left, and then I came to the same spot where he'd been

17 digging. There were several HVO soldiers there. Mr. Stela was there.

18 I'm not saying that it was Stela who did it, but a young man from Zepce

19 who knew Karso, he was a tall man, a good-looking young man, but he had

20 some kind of dispute, quarrel with him. They were quarrelling, and some

21 ugly things were being said and --

22 Q. Let me stop you there. Sorry, Witness, but again, when you say

23 they were quarrelling, who was quarrelling or who was exchanging words?

24 A. One of the HVO soldiers from Zepce. He was quarrelling with

25 Karso, who is also from Zepce.

Page 6252

1 Q. All right. And what happened next?

2 A. He went to see Mr. Stela to ask him something, I don't know what

3 it was all about, because he was further away together with other

4 soldiers, and then I heard Stela, "Well if you really want to do it, go

5 ahead, fuck his balija mother." And then all of a sudden the soldier came

6 back. He pointed his rifle in Karso and he emptied his entire clip into

7 Karso. I felt sick. I closed my eyes. I felt so sorry for the man.

8 Then I was told to pick up a bag and put his body into the bag.

9 Somebody helped me. I don't know who it was. I forgot the name of the

10 person. I don't know where the body ended up.

11 Then there was some confusion, and we were forced to put on

12 uniforms and take some wooden rifles. And Stela at one point in time told

13 me, "You go with the others as well." I have to tell the truth. I hid

14 behind one of the buildings. I didn't want to go because I knew what

15 was -- what would happen. So this confusion lasted for a while, and then

16 it stopped. Some guys had to go.

17 Q. My apology for interrupting you, but again, before we get away

18 from the Karso incident, let me ask you a few additional questions about

19 that. How far were you, approximately, from where you saw -- you said

20 Stela was there and that you saw this HVO soldier go over and have a

21 conversation with Stela. Approximately how far was Stela from you at this

22 time?

23 A. Ten to fifteen metres, thereabouts. I can't remember exactly.

24 Given the trouble we were in, it's hard to remember everything.

25 Q. And when the soldier came back and fired his gun into Karso, how

Page 6253

1 far were you from where Karso was standing at the time he was shot?

2 A. From where I was?

3 Q. Yes, sir.

4 A. Two, three, to four metres. Where you are, for example.

5 Q. And where was -- as the -- as Karso was being shot and in the

6 immediate seconds and minutes that followed, where was Stela and what was

7 he doing?

8 A. Stela was talking to some soldiers. They were laughing as if

9 nothing had happened, as if only a fly had been killed.

10 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, please, did you see Stela do anything to

11 intervene to prevent this from happening, to prevent this soldier from

12 shooting Karso?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

14 A. No, I didn't see anything.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

16 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness said that

17 Stela was talking up there, which is missing from the transcript.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

19 Mr. Scott, can you clear it up for us.

20 MR. SCOTT: I'll try, Your Honour. I didn't hear that myself, but

21 I'll give the witness a chance to clarify.

22 Q. Witness, if you can please assist us again, I asked you a few

23 moments ago what Stela was doing at the time that Karso was shot. Can you

24 just answer that question again, please. Where was he, and what was he

25 doing?

Page 6254

1 A. He was some 20 metres away. He was standing over there with some

2 soldiers.

3 Q. And I think you answered the other question I had put to you, so I

4 won't repeat it.

5 But a different question: After Karso shot this man -- excuse me,

6 my apology. After the soldier shot Karso, did Stela do anything to

7 intervene, say anything to this soldier, or have him arrested or any such

8 thing?

9 A. No, nothing. At that moment, no. If he did something later on, I

10 don't know.

11 Q. Now, you started to go forward with your story. After -- we're

12 finished now with the incident with Mr. Karso. What happened after that?

13 A. Somebody brought a black garbage bag. We put his body into this

14 bag. We put it away. I don't know where it ended up. I heard later on

15 that his grave, Karso's grave -- that his grave was found by his family

16 subsequently. That's all I know.

17 Q. What happened to you after you put the body in this bag? We're

18 still on the 26th of July, if I understand you correctly. What happened

19 next?

20 A. Then Stela ordered that we should all go. Some people put on some

21 military uniforms and backpacks full of stones, wooden rifles. Some

22 plastic flasks were put in their pockets, and he forced those people to

23 the line where the BH army was, but I hid behind the building. I'm not

24 ashamed to admit it. They wanted to uncover the positions so that the BH

25 army would shoot them. That was the idea, I guess, so that later on they

Page 6255

1 would be able to see where they were, see where their positions were. But

2 shells were raining down. It was -- there was shooting going on from all

3 sides.

4 Q. Witness QQ, I want you to be very clear with the Chamber, please.

5 How far -- how much of this did you actually see? Did there come a point

6 in time when the soldiers dressed in the uniforms and the wooden rifles go

7 out of your sight? I want you to be very clear with the Chamber about

8 what you saw and what you didn't see.

9 A. I knew some of the convicts. I knew some of them. There were

10 five or six soldiers there. And there were detainees in uniforms with

11 wooden rifles but original straps. It really looked like a rifle. They

12 were made by a Muslim carpenter. I know this carpenter.

13 Q. My question, then, is: As you saw these things happening, did you

14 see these men actually on the confrontation line, or did they set off and

15 at some point go out of your sight?

16 A. They left. I could no longer see them. Those buildings were

17 normally inhabited. At one point in time, I lost them out of sight.

18 Later on when I went to Heliodrom, I heard that there were incidents such

19 as killing and wounding. I know that some guys were killed. But anyway,

20 at one point in time, I could no longer see them. Once they reached one

21 of the buildings, they probably moved from one building to another.

22 Q. All right. Did you go back to the Heliodrom that evening?

23 A. Yes. Yes, I did. I was somewhat spared.

24 Q. Did you see all of the men that you saw moving away from you with

25 the uniforms and the rifles? Did you see all of those men come back to

Page 6256

1 the Heliodrom that evening?

2 A. No, because they were scattered around in other rooms. But I

3 heard that some of them were killed. I heard stories from the convicts

4 when the food was distributed, for example.

5 Q. Witness QQ, I'm completely changing topics now, just to keep

6 you -- not to confuse you. During the time that you were held at the

7 Heliodrom, did you see any members or components of the Croatian army?

8 A. Yes, I did. Quite a few of them.

9 Q. Can you give us the names of any units that you remember and the

10 approximate time period when you saw these units?

11 A. Tigers, Pumes, Thunders, 111th Rijeka Unit, the Split Unit.

12 Various brigades were rotating. Tigers had their insignia. Pumes had

13 their own insignia. The Thunders had the sign for electricity. There

14 were two Muslims with the Tigers whom I know. They were quartered at

15 Varda and other locations. When you entered the Heliodrom on the

16 right-hand side, there was the brigade -- the Bruno Busic Brigade in one

17 of those buildings, on that side. There were many of them.

18 Q. In addition to seeing the soldiers, the individual members, that

19 is, of these units, did you see vehicles and equipment that these units

20 had with them?

21 A. Yes, I did. There were many vehicles, many pinzgauers, trucks

22 which used to belong to the former army but were painted over. There were

23 Howitzers, mortars. There was a sniper unit. There were T-84 tanks.

24 There were 115 millimetre Howitzers. Many various kinds of weapons.

25 Q. Apart from the names of the units - and by that I mean Tigrovi,

Page 6257

1 Gromovi, those names - was there anything else identifying these units

2 which indicated to you they were from the Croatian army?

3 A. They were better dressed, better equipped and armed than the HVO.

4 They had the special type of running shoes and tracking shoes, very

5 expensive kind of footwear. I remember their footwear as they were

6 carrying out their dead -- dead Croatian soldiers. I know a lot about

7 that. I haven't told you as much as I know.

8 Q. Well, I'll ask you a few more questions. Before we ask -- before

9 I ask you that, though, did there come a time when some of these patches

10 and insignias were changed? And if so, will you tell the Chamber about

11 that.

12 A. Yes, they changed their insignia. They put on the HVO insignia.

13 Some of them had first taken off their old badges, old insignia. Also

14 license plates were taken off, the yellow ones with letters "HV" on it.

15 They put various stickers on their insignia to mark their tanks, stickers

16 that could later on be taken off again.

17 Q. One of the things that you were required to do as a prisoner, were

18 you ever involved in recovering the bodies of dead soldiers?

19 A. Once I was required to extinguish some fire. And at one point in

20 time, we had to recover Croatian soldiers. There were more than ten of

21 them. I think that there was a quarrel between the two of them. One

22 could easily recognise them by their footwear. And the Tigers at one

23 point in time left the Heliodrom because of some kind of misunderstanding

24 with the HVO. There were disagreements between the two sides. I don't

25 want to comment on. But they would come back.

Page 6258

1 Q. All right. But I do want you to clarify. You just said a moment

2 ago -- you said, I think, that there was a quarrel between the two of

3 them. When you say the "two of them," who are you referring to?

4 A. The Croatian army and the HVO for Mostar, because the order was to

5 recover bodies of Croatian soldiers first, so they could be transported in

6 helicopter to Split.

7 Q. What did you understand the disagreement to be?

8 A. Well, this is what I was able to observe. I moved around a lot.

9 I did have some -- I didn't have much restriction of movement, so I was

10 able to observe their quarrels.

11 Q. Can you tell the Chamber approximately --

12 INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


14 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, please, approximately how many times you

15 were involved in collecting or recovering the bodies of either Croatian or

16 HVO soldiers?

17 A. I was there on one occasion near the village of Visnje, which

18 means "cherry tree." There were quite a few cherry trees in the area, and

19 there was a little bridge there I remember. And on another occasion, I

20 was in Malo Polje at the Buna. Many other prisoners did the same job; I

21 mean that of recovering dead bodies.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

23 MR. KRSNIK: [No interpretation]

24 JUDGE LIU: Sorry, we don't get translation. Yes, can you try

25 again?

Page 6259

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I just would

2 like to draw the attention of this Chamber that -- well, we are following

3 this witness in Croatian, but I have to say that for the past five

4 minutes, many things have not been translated into English. I don't know

5 how to intervene. There are many things that are actually uttered,

6 stated, by the witness, in Croatian or whatever language he is speaking.

7 For example, he said that he didn't like being a witness. Many things are

8 simply not reflected on the record. I don't know. I've discussed it with

9 my colleague. I don't know what to do.

10 On the other hand, I'm receiving the French interpretation all the

11 time. My colleague is not -- cannot hear the witness. We are faced with

12 many technical difficulties here. But what troubles me and worries me

13 most is the fact that many of the things that are stated by the witness

14 are not in the record. A moment ago, he said that he had talked with the

15 secret police in Bosnia, and so on and so forth. Many things are missing

16 from the transcript, sir.

17 I apologise to you, Mr. Witness, but I had to react for the

18 purposes of the record.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm surprised to hear that, because every word

20 the witness said is supposed to be interpreted into the other two

21 languages so that to keep the transcript intact. I'll ask the Registrar

22 to look into this matter at night, I mean to check the recordings and the

23 transcript. And if such things happened in a later stage, you may draw

24 our attention to it. Yes.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, the interpreters would like to

Page 6260

1 state that they are having serious problems with understanding this

2 witness and following the speed with which he is speaking.

3 MR. SCOTT: I'll try to work with the witness more,

4 Mr. President.

5 Q. Witness QQ, I know this is a difficult experience for you, for

6 lots of different reasons, but the interpreters are having a great deal of

7 difficulty accurately translating and reporting your testimony. And I'm

8 sure you can understand that the value of your testimony is greatly

9 limited by -- if it doesn't come through on the record or if it's not

10 understood. So please speak slowly and clearly. I can ask you to be --

11 if you can be very deliberate, perhaps not in a way that you would be in a

12 conversation with a friend at home, but if you pronounce your words, as I

13 am trying to do, very deliberately and very carefully, it may assist the

14 interpreters.

15 And Mr. Witness, I don't know if what counsel has said is true or

16 not because, unfortunately, I don't speak your language, but please do not

17 make any extraneous comments. Just answer my questions, please, as best

18 you can. All right?

19 A. I have to apologise. I always used to speak very fast. My

20 brother would slap me for speaking much too fast. I remember my mother

21 warning me about it. But simply that's the habit I have. I'm trying to

22 concentrate and to speak as slowly as possible. I probably have some

23 gypsy blood in me.

24 Q. Well, all right. All I can do is ask you, Witness, to think about

25 it deliberately and slow yourself as much as you can, because the judges

Page 6261

1 do want to hear your testimony, as we all do.

2 A. I'm trying to do that. Stela made me a little nervous. I tend to

3 get nervous, but I'm trying really hard to speak slowly. I'll try to do

4 my best.

5 Q. Thank you. You were telling us -- you were in the process of

6 telling us - I think you actually finished - about a number of locations

7 or several locations where you had been involved in collecting bodies. My

8 only final question to you, I think, on that topic is: Were those

9 locations within the boundaries of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as far as you

10 know?

11 A. Yes, yes. It was in Mostar, near the civilian airport. There was

12 a cherry-tree plantation farm. I remember that I was there on several

13 occasions, so I remember these two locations very well. There are other

14 locations as well, but these are the ones that I remember well.

15 Q. Slow, slow.

16 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I see it's about 4.00, and looking at

17 my outline, I'm about to enter into a topic that I'm sure I can't finish

18 in the next couple of minutes, especially with all the difficulties. This

19 may be as good a place to stop as any.

20 JUDGE LIU: We will resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

22 4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd

23 day of November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.