Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6311

1 Monday, 26 November 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Naletilic, we haven't seen you for almost a week.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the president, please.

11 Microphone for the president. And the accused doesn't have his microphone

12 switched on.

13 JUDGE LIU: How are you feeling now?

14 THE ACCUSED NALETILIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm fine. Thank you.

15 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down please. Take care.

16 Mr. Seric, cross-examination, please.

17 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

18 Good morning, Your Honours.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Seric:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Witness QQ, my name is Branko Seric, and I'm

23 counsel for the accused Vinko Martinovic.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will have some

25 preliminary questions which I consider important, and therefore I should

Page 6312

1 like to ask you to go into private session.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session, please.

3 [Private session]

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Page 6318

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14 [Open session]

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. As you told us during the examination-in-chief, but you just gave

17 us roughly the time frame when you went, when you went back, how long you

18 were. It is most difficult to reconstruct your movements. So my question

19 to you is: Can we agree if you returned on the 7th of May and 15 days

20 later were transferred to Ljubuski, does that mean that you got to

21 Ljubuski in late May, that is, around the 23rd of May, 1993?

22 A. Let me see, at the 7th -- it was the 8th that I was at Blidinje

23 Lake, Duvno, and then 15, that is, 23. Well, yes, first in Ljubuski --

24 no, no, no. The 23rd, yes. 8 plus 15 makes 23.

25 Q. Right. You said seven days later you were transferred to the

Page 6319

1 Heliodrom. Does it mean that you got to Heliodrom around the 1st of June?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You said that about a month -- that you were in the camp for about

4 a month and then you went to the kitchen. Does it mean that you started

5 working in the kitchen around the 1st of July, 1993?

6 A. It does. And they were taking me back several times, because they

7 were short of people, I mean the people who would know about the kitchen.

8 And I knew something about that, so I went to work, and then they would

9 take me back again, I mean that on the -- Smiljanic, to and fro, to and

10 fro.

11 Q. According to you, during that month, whilst you were in the

12 kitchen, you were also being taken to work on the Bulevar, in Santiceva,

13 Hum, and Brkanovo Brdo too; is that correct?

14 A. Well, from kitchen, sometimes people went to do it, but I went to

15 work whilst I was in the kitchen and after the kitchen; that is, they

16 would just pick me up. When a soldier comes, he looks at my face, "Take

17 off your overalls," and so I would stay that day, that night.

18 Q. You said that as you were taken to all those localities, next to

19 the mechanical engineering faculty, you came across Vinko Martinovic.

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. Wait for me to switch off.

22 Can you tell us where is the faculty?

23 A. I don't know. I did not know it now, and I can't recognise it

24 today. To tell you candidly, I don't know. I've never been in Mostar

25 before. I was never in Mostar before the war, and I didn't go back after

Page 6320

1 the camp either.

2 Q. So where exactly did you see Vinko Martinovic?

3 A. Well, we were around that building, and I heard from somebody it

4 was a mechanical engineering faculty. I knew Vinko. I knew Vinko from

5 before, so you think -- I think you know in my statement I didn't talk

6 much about Vinko and Tuta because I'm grateful, and ask you not to go into

7 it any further. I said what I said; I stand by it. I moved all over the

8 place. People respected me.

9 Q. Excuse me, sir, we have to go further into it because my client

10 says that he never saw you or heard you in his life. And you have no

11 reason to be grateful because he never harmed you and also he never did

12 any good for you. So I have to ask you these details, precisely so as to

13 check your story, to see if you are telling us the truth. Wait for me,

14 because there cannot exist two truths. It is either his truth or your

15 truth. Wait, wait.

16 Now tell me, you say that on that occasion in Mostar, that is what

17 I am trying to reconstruct, that period of time. And you said during that

18 month when you ate in the kitchen, and that was after the 1st of July,

19 during that period of time, once and for the first time during that

20 period, you came across Vinko Martinovic next to the mechanical

21 engineering, and it stuck in your memory. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, it is. I know Vinko Martinovic from the penitentiary in

23 Zenica.

24 Q. But my question to you is, where is it that you exactly you saw

25 him next to the mechanical engineering faculty? And wait for me to switch

Page 6321












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Page 6322

1 off the microphone and then you'll give us your answer slowly.

2 A. Mr. Lawyer, now, if I tell you was it in the front -- or at the

3 entrance I saw him next to the mechanical engineering faculty. That is

4 what I heard. I never knew that before. I used to see Vinko Martinovic

5 in various places at the Heliodrom, too. He had command in the red

6 building, but it was all in -- protected by sandbags and boarding. I saw

7 him at different places. In Siroki Brijeg, I saw him, with Mr. Tuta when

8 they were having beer, and then Mr. Ajanovic came. And do you want

9 anything else from me?

10 JUDGE LIU: I think both the counsel and the witness have to speak

11 very slowly. We have some difficult time to follow you both. The very

12 purpose of this cross-examination is to have whatever you said correctly

13 recorded in the transcript. In certain places, the interpreter is far

14 behind you, so please make a pause before -- please make a pause before

15 your question and answering. And do not interrupt a question or an

16 answer.

17 You may proceed, Mr. Seric.

18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Please

19 receive my apologies. But in the heat of cross-examination, when I hear

20 an answer before I expected you, I immediately move on with my next

21 question and I get carried away. But I apologise. I try to behave

22 correctly towards the witness, the interpreters, and you, Your Honours.

23 Q. Now, Witness QQ, let us try to round this off; answer or don't

24 answer my question.

25 A. Yes, tell me.

Page 6323

1 Q. On that occasion, you said during that examination that that was

2 the first time that during that time interval, you had seen Vinko

3 Martinovic next to the mechanical engineering faculty. Today you tell us,

4 I saw him around and I saw him here and I saw him there. My question is

5 only about that one occasion.

6 Tell us the circumstances under which you saw him, what was he

7 saying, what was he doing, what did he look like, and where was he?

8 Because if you say "around", and that is it, then I must tell you that

9 that is not an answer, or are you trying to dodge an answer?

10 A. That was eight or nine years ago. And of course, he was in a

11 uniform, naturally. It was wartime. It was wartime. He was in a uniform

12 with weapons. Vinko Martinovic did not talk with me at the time. He was

13 saying I don't know what was -- what I said, yes. How can I remember what

14 it was? Nine years ago, nine years' time is enough for a child to be born

15 and come out of the elementary school. But I saw him in many places. As

16 I said, I did see him in different places.

17 And if you want me to -- I said you can't ask me additional

18 questions. You want me really to -- I didn't want even to come here. I

19 didn't know I would be coming here, and I didn't want to be a witness.

20 I'd rather be an accused than a witness, and I want everybody to be

21 happy. And my investigating service and investigators and you and the

22 victims, I don't really want to bring harm on anyone.

23 And if Vinko cannot remember me, I lost 23 kilograms. I lost my

24 hair, my teeth were knocked out. I was burned with cigars. I can

25 address, and I can tell you now what he was saying on that occasion I

Page 6324

1 don't know. At times we had big ears. At times we had tiny ears. You

2 were not to know everything; you were not to see everything; you were not

3 to know everything.

4 Q. On that occasion at the mechanical engineering faculty, where

5 exactly were you personally?

6 A. How shall I say that? If I had a picture, I could show it to you

7 on the picture. But to tell you now exactly where I was, about 20 metres

8 away wherever we were taken to work.

9 Q. Who was there with you from the prisoners?

10 A. If I could tell you about all of these men, they were from so many

11 different places. There were so many different ones. If I were to see

12 them, I would remember them. But they were from different places because

13 people were gathered in Split, in the airport in Zagreb. Muslims were

14 gathered from all over the place and brought to this centre that had been

15 prepared for the Muslim population there.

16 Q. Do you know what unit held this zone where the mechanical

17 engineering school was?

18 A. I don't. I just know that it was the HVO because they were --

19 those were the patches with two crossed rifles, just like the Croatian

20 army. But I don't know which unit. There were all kinds of units around

21 there. I don't know which unit Stela was in charge of.

22 Q. Do you know that this was the 1st Light Storm unit of the military

23 police, not Stela's unit?

24 A. I didn't say that it was Stela's unit. I just said what I saw. I

25 did not say that Vinko held that part of the front line, or that unit. I

Page 6325

1 just saw him there for the first time. And I also saw him when he came to

2 the Heliodrom. I did not know what he did there at the Heliodrom.

3 Perhaps he was looking for people to go and work for him. That would have

4 been normal to expect.

5 Q. Do you know why Vinko Martinovic came to the mechanical

6 engineering school at that time?

7 A. Can you tell me why you came here?

8 Q. I don't mean to go into quarrel with you.

9 A. I don't mean it either.

10 Q. In your direct examination, you said that the building of Vinko

11 Martinovic's headquarters was some kind of a red building?

12 A. Yes, there was a red facade. And it was surrounded by sandbags,

13 up to the windows.

14 Q. Do you know the location of this building?

15 A. No, I cannot. It was a long time ago. I did not know the area

16 well. I only learned about the places where I was brought to, and I said

17 that a number of times.

18 Q. Can you describe the building, give us a description? And please

19 wait. What was it, a single floor, two floor, three floor? How large was

20 it?

21 A. I am in construction, but believe me, I can't remember how many

22 floors it has. I was under duress. I didn't look around. I didn't look

23 up to see to count the floors. We didn't even -- we couldn't even look.

24 We just had to keep our heads down.

25 Q. How did you distribute food if you didn't look around?

Page 6326

1 A. Oh, on that day, I was not distributing food that day. That was

2 in another place, not at that building.

3 Q. When were you around that building?

4 A. I cannot recall the exact date. I did have some kind of a diary.

5 I made notes -- I had copious notes, and I had a pencil. And there were a

6 lot of dates in there, good dates, bad dates, from the 7th of May, '93

7 until 11th of March, '94. There's a lot of information in there.

8 Q. Let me try to approach it from another angle. When you were at

9 that building, did you think that this was his headquarters, or did you

10 know?

11 A. I assumed that that was the headquarters, but I don't know

12 exactly. It wasn't written on the building, the headquarters or the

13 command. I sort of assumed that this is where he had his headquarters.

14 Q. Well, let's try to reconstruct that event when we were

15 unsuccessful with the mechanical engineering faculty. Who was with you at

16 that time?

17 A. There were a number of convicts. [redacted]

18 [redacted].

19 Q. Excuse me. If you're going to mention any names we will go to the

20 private session. I'm just asking you about your arrival in front of that

21 red building. My question was: Who was with you? If you're going to say

22 any names, we will move into the private session. And again, please wait

23 until I'm finished.

24 Do you recall any names? If you do, then we will just move on, or

25 if not, we will again move on.

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Page 6328

1 A. I recall some names. People were brought there to move sandbags,

2 and these were mostly men from outside, not the local men from Mostar. I

3 was with the Mostar men, for the most part. There were men from Mostar

4 who have risen high since then. They occupy important positions. I can

5 move on if you want me to.

6 Now, are you asking me again the mechanical engineering faculty

7 and that group or who was with me at that time?

8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we move into the

9 private session?

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session.

11 [Private session]

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Page 6334

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11 [Open session]

12 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Please don't look at the photograph through the monitor but take

14 it in your hands or look at it directly. And the usher will give you a

15 pointer. Perhaps you can locate Santiceva Street in the photograph.

16 A. I believe that it's all in that same direction here. I just

17 learned that that was Santiceva Street and the Bulevar. But which is the

18 Santiceva and which is the Bulevar -- but I remember this road leading to

19 the Heliodrom. That, I remember quite well.

20 Q. Now, this would also be good and sufficient if you could show us

21 exactly where you were.

22 A. I was here. You cannot see the building. But I walked about this

23 area, all through that area, and then some men went over here. There were

24 sandbags, and there was also logs and boards.

25 Q. And on the 26th of July, where were you exactly, if you can show

Page 6335

1 us?

2 A. Behind this building here.

3 Q. Are you telling us that we cannot see in the photograph exactly

4 the location where you were on the 26th of July?

5 A. I was behind that building, and then up the street a little bit.

6 For two or three days, I was there. I remember that building quite well.

7 I was behind it.

8 Q. Can you describe where it is located on the photograph? Let's say

9 if you say that the first building starting from the bottom right corner.

10 A. I'm sorry, not a painter. I'm not very good at these

11 descriptions. But I see it quite well. It's this building here. That's

12 what it is. I walked here and here. This is where the ABiH positions

13 were. This is the main intersection. I remember the gas station. That

14 is, it was a fuel tank. They had a fuel tank. It was a mobile fuel

15 station. I don't know where they were taking it. But nine years later,

16 don't expect me to be able to draw the building. This is where it was.

17 That's all I can say.

18 Q. Okay. Allow me, then, Witness QQ. The building behind which you

19 were on 26th of July is on the right margin of the photograph, and it's

20 surrounded by some small white fence, and we can see that it is a

21 four-storey building. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Witness QQ, you said that you personally knew that some women were

24 sexually abused in Heliodrom?

25 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask to go into the

Page 6336

1 private session for one name, and then I'll ask you the question.

2 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

3 [Private session]

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17 [Open session]

18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. During the direct examination, and today repeatedly -- and we are

20 coming to that day, and I want us to focus on that day, on the 26th of

21 July. You don't remember all these other days, and it is understandable.

22 I agree with you that it was a long time ago, but how is it that you

23 remember so well that particular day and things that happened on that day?

24 A. [redacted].

25 Q. You said that that day some prisoners were forced to cross the

Page 6337

1 separation line with wooden rifles.

2 A. Yes. There were several times when people had to cross with

3 wooden rifles, and that day, too. Those men -- I mean, those prisoners

4 were made to do that. It happened several times. I didn't mention it,

5 but it happened several times.

6 Q. I am referring to the 26th of July.

7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] And could we then again have the

8 photograph so that the witness can show us where is it that they crossed

9 the line.

10 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Seric, have you got a better photograph?

11 Because that one shows more of the left than the right.

12 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could try with 14.3.

13 A. Let me just look at this. Yes, this is quite a clear picture. I

14 said it correctly. This goes to the Heliodrom -- well, this building is

15 red. There were several buildings. This one here, too.

16 Q. Now, let's take it easy and show us. Let's go question by

17 question. My first question was: Where were those prisoners with wooden

18 rifles made to cross the street? Where was that?

19 A. Here they were dressed up. And then they were made to take these

20 streets. And there was an intersection not far from here. I know they

21 were forced -- they were made to cross over to the ABH lines, and they

22 were dressed here somewhere in this building. Somewhere nearby is the

23 hospital, if you can see well.

24 Q. Well, will you try? And after all, this is your profession,

25 you've told us. Will you try to be more precise? I'm asking you. It

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Page 6339

1 wasn't a large number of men, you said. So where exactly were they made

2 to cross the street?

3 A. Well, I can't tell you to a metre, but it is across this street

4 that they crossed. It was the front line here. I remember how some

5 escaped and then we paid the price. I know that four of them, I think,

6 took to their heels, and then we got as if we knew that those other

7 convicts, his neighbours.

8 Q. Did I hear you well? Did you say that four of those men with

9 wooden rifles fled, escaped that day?

10 A. No, no, no, no, no, not that day, later, later. People were

11 beaten real bad whether those four escaped, but I wasn't there that day.

12 I was in the camp when it happened. But they were dressed beyond those

13 buildings here and various different streets were taken, but I didn't take

14 them, so I can't tell you. Nobody forced me. Stela once said, "You too.

15 Come on," but I hid so that I didn't go there.

16 Q. But where were you exactly? Show us on the photograph. Where

17 were you exactly?

18 A. Well, I was here, about this building here. That is where I was.

19 I was there. I happened there. I remember that red building well, and I

20 also remember here too, in this part here.

21 Q. Now, are you aware that this building which you pointed at last is

22 the building that we a moment ago --

23 A. You mean here? This one? That is the one that I showed you a

24 moment ago. I can see -- it's this building that we described except from

25 the -- on the other picture -- I think we were describing this one, this

Page 6340

1 red building here. Here, here, that building.

2 Q. Sir, now, where are these prisoners? Where were they made to

3 cross the separation line?

4 A. Well, I don't know where because I wasn't sent with them. It was

5 just, "Come on, move on towards your line." They were being forced to do

6 that in different places, but I didn't go with them, so how can I know?

7 And I told you I hadn't been one of them.

8 Q. But did you see them cross the separation line?

9 A. No. How could I? How could I? I didn't follow them. I didn't

10 go after them to see them, to the front line. There was fire from all

11 over the place. So I couldn't see where the BH army was. You just hear a

12 bullet here and a bullet there because there was fire on different sides.

13 Now, to say that I saw them, when I didn't see them, when they crossed --

14 I know only that they were made to do that, and they left. Where did they

15 leave? I don't know. Why they went, I do not know. I guess it was in

16 order to identify these snipers' locations, because there were also

17 snipers, or from our convicts or from our ammunition. When I say that, I

18 mean the BH army, and Brkanovo Brdo. There were a number of snipers

19 there.

20 Q. Witness QQ, let's take it easy. What time of day was it?

21 A. I had a watch, a gilt one, a Rolex, yes, so I knew what time it

22 was, don't you think? Sure I knew what time it was. How can I know it?

23 Q. But was it morning? Was it noon? Was it night?

24 A. You mean that day when that happened? Well, 10.00, 11.00.

25 Q. Well, then 10.00 or 11.00 on the 26th of July, where were you

Page 6341

1 exactly? Try to turn your film back. Where were you exactly, and what

2 was it that you saw exactly? How were they dressed, and how were they

3 allegedly armed with those wooden rifles? Describe that to us.

4 A. Well, there were some five or six people who were dressed in

5 uniforms, and I saw Stela a little. I can't say it was he, but he must

6 have had some command when the soldiers were forced to dress and they were

7 given backpacks loaded with stones and they were taken away. Now, we

8 reckoned that they were taken there to -- in order to identify the

9 position of the front line.

10 Q. Were you at that time? In a building, in a yard, in a street,

11 standing on your knees? What were you doing?

12 A. Well, I was standing there that day. It was really somebody said,

13 "Okay. Come on. You too," so they wouldn't see that I was on the Croat

14 side more than a Muslim, and I was thinking what to do, do I go there or

15 there. But then I hid behind a building, so I didn't go. One needs to

16 tell the truth. I didn't go. I didn't load. I didn't put on the

17 uniform. Nothing, no way. I was naturally in the trousers and the

18 T-shirt that the Red Cross had brought, so ...

19 Q. And where were these detainees who put on those camouflage

20 uniforms and given rifles? Where were they in relation to you?

21 A. Well, about ten metres away from me because, you know, they came

22 in groups, because they arrived and the assignment is, "Go there." So

23 some go and put up those sandbags, others put up some boarding to protect

24 buildings. There were trucks which kept bringing people in, those

25 military vehicles.

Page 6342

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I really don't know

3 what we shall do. How can we reconstruct the transcript of this witness?

4 Because we were not able to reconstruct it, even the one that we were

5 given the last time. But we shall do it when this witness finishes. We

6 shall indicate -- we shall point out all the shortcomings of this

7 transcript, or rather, we shall suggest that the tape in the Croatian

8 language is an integral part of this transcript because there are parts

9 which are not included which the witness is saying, because if we indeed

10 ask this witness to indeed to speak as slowly as possible.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Witness, we really have difficult times to

12 follow you, and I think the transcript missed the last part of your

13 answer. So please, do speak very slowly and remember that the only

14 purpose for you to come here is to help us, rather than to argue with

15 Defence counsel. It is their job to ask you questions which you might

16 find not so friendly, I must say frankly to you, but your main job is to

17 help us.

18 We missed the last part of your answer. Would you please repeat

19 it.

20 A. My apologies. I'm trying to do that, but I can't do it. For 48,

21 45 years, I was learning one thing, so I can't change. When I slow down,

22 then I begin to relive all that I went through. And I went through a

23 great deal. It was only Siroki Brijeg that I could breathe a little. You

24 could see how I start slowly, and then I speed up, speed up. It's like a

25 little gypsy kid that you slap me in the face, and then I get faster and

Page 6343

1 faster, and then somehow get confused. I get all tied up in a knot.

2 But the last thing that the lawyer asked me, it was behind this

3 building. Well, I can't remember the number directly, but I'm telling you

4 a group of soldiers who were dressed up, and they were made to cross this

5 street and go to this front line where the BH army was. Now, what

6 happened to them, I don't know. What was with them, I don't know, because

7 I didn't go with them, so I can't know all that happened. A writer writes

8 a book and forgets what he wrote in that book. So after these nine years,

9 I can't really remember. Had I tried to remember it, had one brushed it

10 up every six months after the war, then had I been brushing up this all,

11 then I would have a very clear picture of my 300 days in hell.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, that statement is fast enough. Please slow

13 down.

14 And Mr. Seric, would you please repeat your question, because we

15 missed the last part of the answer by this witness.

16 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, QQ, if you can't speak slower, please, will you try to

18 articulate better so the interpreters can get you, and use less slang, if

19 possible, and then you will make their job easier in spite of the speed.

20 Will you please use less slang and be as articulate as possible.

21 Now my question was - and let me go back to that question - will

22 you tell me specifically where were those soldiers who had been given

23 uniforms to put on? And you told us that they were some 10 metres in

24 front of you.

25 A. Yes.

Page 6344

1 Q. Now, my question is: Were they in front of the building, in the

2 yard, and was it there that they were given those uniforms and put them

3 on?

4 A. They were in front of this building. Like this. They were quite

5 near it. More or less like this. Right behind this building, that's

6 where they were, that is, where they put on those clothes and were

7 assigned.

8 Q. Do you remember who brought those uniforms for them?

9 A. No, no. No, no. No, no. What is true is true. No, no.

10 Q. Did they get those uniforms and those allegedly wooden rifles at

11 the same time?

12 A. No, they were not brought at the same time. I don't think they

13 were all brought together. I think that a soldier brought the uniforms

14 and another one, I think, brought those wooden rifles. I remember them

15 well. I remember it well.

16 Q. I must admit that I didn't understand you. You said one soldier

17 brought this and another soldier brought --

18 A. Sorry, sorry, one brought the uniform, and the other one brought

19 the rifles.

20 Q. And you said that those rifles had been made by a carpenter. How

21 do you know that?

22 A. Because in the camp, in the camp, you hear all sorts of stories.

23 There's a lot of stories, and the Mostarians, of course, knew lots of

24 people because they were neighbours. And it is said that there was a

25 Muslim who worked there on the other side, and that he was a carpenter by

Page 6345

1 profession. Two brothers, I think. And that is, they told me that that

2 carpenter, that Muslim carpenter, made those rifles. I remember them

3 well.

4 Q. Wait, wait, wait. Take it easy. I'll lead you to this. You said

5 not only that. You also, during the direct examination, said that you

6 knew his name. Now, if you know his name, we'll go into private session,

7 and you will give us the name of that carpenter.

8 A. No, not the name. I said I knew his nickname. But I just can't

9 remember directly. I think that that carpenter, that carpenter --

10 Q. No, wait. I think --

11 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we go into

12 private?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

14 [Private session]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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Page 6347













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Page 6348

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Now, let us see what those rifles looked like. What do you

21 remember about them? What did they look like?

22 A. It was a black rifle, a wooden one, made like a Kalashnikov. It

23 had a new green belt. It has a nail. Up where the sight should be down,

24 it has a nail. And then with the trigger, there was a nail again. And

25 the belt was also fixed with a nail.

Page 6349












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Page 6350

1 Well, proper Kalashnikov, like a real rifle. From a 10-metre

2 distance, you can't see what's a true or a fake rifle. I remember that

3 rifle well. I even remember -- I even remember who had a rifle hanging in

4 Mostar, because in '94, I went there to look for some information. I

5 remember where that man kept that rifle, but I don't remember who was it

6 was. I don't remember all these names. I forget them. It's nine years.

7 Because I had some business down there in Mostar, and that is how I saw

8 this man who had kept that rifle.

9 Q. And who was that? Do you remember that?

10 A. No, I don't, and I didn't ask. But I could even take you from

11 here right there.

12 Q. Was he one of the detainees who had been given that wooden rifle,

13 and then kept it?

14 A. Well, I think so. I can't remember it all. There were 5.000 men

15 down there. Now I can't really know. But it seems that, yes, he was a

16 detainee. It seems so. I think so. But I'm not sure. I didn't talk

17 with him. I was just passing and I cast a look. I was looking for

18 something.

19 Q. You said that some detainees were killed on that -- had been

20 killed on that occasion. Tell us, do you know any of them?

21 A. Well, I know those who were near me, those people who came from

22 other places.

23 Q. Excuse me for interrupting you, but if you remember names, tell us

24 that you remember those names, because then we have to go into private

25 session again.

Page 6351

1 A. [redacted]

2 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we shall need the

3 private session again.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, let's move into private session, please.

5 [Private session]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

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18 [redacted]

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Page 6353

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE LIU: We need a break to cool off. We will resume at

10 11.30.

11 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, before we start, there's an oral correction on

14 the schedule orders on the 22nd November, 2001. In that executive paragraph,

15 paragraph 3, page 3, it said the video conference link on the 3rd

16 December, 2001, is scheduled to take place from 4.30 p.m. to 11.00 p.m. in

17 Courtroom I. The particular sessions will be held as follows: A, it

18 should be from 4.30, instead of 3.30. There's a typing mistake in this

19 order.

20 Well, Mr. Seric, could I know how long you are going to take for

21 your cross-examination with this witness.

22 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will try to be

23 shorter than this morning. I have an equal amount of question for this

24 portion of the session, so I will ask the witness, first of all, to give

25 me very specific answers, not to go far and wide. If he knows something,

Page 6354

1 he can say so; or not, he can say so. Otherwise he just goes off on

2 tangents.

3 At first I would like to go -- because the witness said he knew a

4 lot, he knew a lot of details, a lot of circumstances. So I thought he

5 would tell us all of this. That is why I led him less than I should

6 have. I gave him a lot of latitude. I believe I will need less time than

7 in first segment this morning. I will just keep him to much shorter

8 answers.

9 JUDGE LIU: Just a reminder that this witness is also a victim,

10 and please conduct your cross-examination slowly and gently. You may

11 proceed, Mr. Seric.

12 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I am going to try as

13 gently as I can, but he definitely can go slower.

14 Q. Mr. QQ, you told us that the prisoners who had crossed the line

15 were killed. Can you show us where it was where they were killed. If you

16 can do that, I'll bring back the picture.

17 A. No, I can't.

18 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Seric, this witness has told us several times

19 that he didn't actually see the witnesses [sic] cross the line, so how can

20 he tell you where they were killed? He said that he hid behind a building

21 and he didn't see after that.

22 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for believing

23 what witness said today, in my cross-examination today, and not what he

24 said in the examination-in-chief.

25 Q. You said that you knew the persons who were holding these wooden

Page 6355

1 rifles. In your direct examination, you said that you knew exactly. And

2 if you do, say so, and we can go into the private session so that you can

3 give us those names. And if not, just say so, and then we'll move on.

4 A. I know about three or four persons.

5 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I ask for private

6 session.

7 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

8 [Private session]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 6356












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Page 6357












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Page 6358

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [Open session]

9 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. In your statement that you gave to the investigators of the OTP,

11 you stated that on that day, the front line moved. Is that correct?

12 A. Well, this is what people were saying. Those who had come back,

13 that is what was happening.

14 Q. But you have no personal knowledge of it?

15 A. No, I don't.

16 Q. Again, will you please wait for me to finish before you answer.

17 Do you know, that is, would you be able to recognise, let's say in

18 this photograph here, where the front line was?

19 A. Well, this was -- this moved from building to building, and I

20 didn't go through all those buildings.

21 Q. Let me repeat the question. Do you -- in this photograph which

22 was there a moment ago - and again, can we please put it back on the

23 ELMO - in this photograph, would you know where the front line was; yes

24 or no?

25 A. Yes. In this picture, I can tell.

Page 6359

1 JUDGE LIU: That is the P14.3, I suppose.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the counsel, please.

3 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] 14.3.

4 A. From this street, I could see that the ABiH was shooting from this

5 end, and this is where the HVO was.

6 Q. Please, don't go all over the place. Just show us directly.

7 A. As far as I can see, nobody was there on that -- on the street,

8 but I could see that fire was coming from these buildings here.

9 Q. And where did this front line move, if you know how the front line

10 changed?

11 A. I don't, so I better not say.

12 Q. Did the HVO soldier cross over to the other side?

13 A. Sir, I was not a soldier. I was a prisoner.

14 Q. Very well, so you don't know. Did the ABiH soldiers cross over to

15 the other side of the line that you just showed?

16 A. Had they done so, I would have left with them.

17 MR. SCOTT: [Previous translation continued] ... objection that

18 Judge Clark made earlier. This witness has told us repeatedly he was not

19 at the confrontation line. So again, we're asking questions this witness

20 has repeatedly indicated he doesn't know about. That's one reason

21 cross-examination is taking so long, is because we keep going back to the

22 same questions over and over again, even though the witness tells us he

23 doesn't know.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric. What's your point, if the witness is

25 not at the front line?

Page 6360












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Page 6361

1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Everything is resolved. If the

2 Prosecution also says that the witness never stated what he stated but,

3 rather, what he stated today in the cross-examination, then obviously I

4 have no questions. But in the examination-in-chief, the Prosecutor tried

5 to prove that what I am trying to question is correct. So if we have

6 agreement on this, it's fine.


8 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, my memory certainly is not perfect, and

9 I certainly defer to the record. I don't think that's the correct -- I

10 think the only thing I elicited from this witness was he saw the men

11 putting on the uniforms and putting on the rucksacks and being led off in

12 the direction of the confrontation line. This witness has consistently

13 testified for some days now he did not see them after they went out of his

14 vision and he did not see anything that happened on the confrontation line

15 that day. I think that's been -- and I submit, I think, that's been

16 clear.

17 JUDGE LIU: This is all we remembered what this witness said the

18 other day, Mr. Seric.

19 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] It may be my mistake, Your Honour,

20 because I may have merged the previous statement and the direct

21 examination. However, he did mention the confrontation line. He

22 mentioned coming to the confrontation line. However, when I try to --

23 because I ask him specific questions, I try to lead him there. However, I

24 can move on.

25 Q. You said that Vinko Martinovic was a commander of that operation,

Page 6362

1 and that he led that operation, including arming the prisoners with wooden

2 rifles. That is what you said when you testified first, and today you

3 didn't say so. Let's clear it up.

4 A. From what I could see, the commander -- when it was ordered, that

5 if we did not finish everything, that is -- what soldiers were saying,

6 that Vinko would come and beat you up. And so this is why they all tried

7 to finish the job. This is why I thought that he was the commander. I

8 didn't see any documents testifying to his being the commander.

9 Q. So it's your assumption?

10 A. Yes, that is my assumption, and when he said, "You address me as

11 Colonel."

12 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the Exhibit Number 496. I

13 think that it may have been introduced through the Defence, but I can't

14 find it now. But it's in the tenth binder, 496.

15 Q. Witness QQ, from this report, it seems that the line of separation

16 was broken up into several segments, and it is clear who commanded which

17 segment.

18 Will you please look at paragraph 1. Which part of the front --

19 the front line was it, and who was in command?

20 A. This is again an absurd question. I didn't know who held which

21 part of the line. I could just see where it -- who was shooting from

22 where.

23 Q. Excuse me, you have the report in front of you. Would you agree

24 with me that the part of the line between the bank and the old high

25 school, it was the military police, and there were nine military policemen

Page 6363

1 holding? Is that correct?

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, Mr. Scott.

3 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, it sounds to me that the only thing

4 this witness -- the question is the witness is to read the document and

5 says what it says. There is no indication this witness has any

6 independent knowledge. I suppose counsel can read to him the entire

7 document and say, "Is that what the document says?" But there has been no

8 indication that this witness has this detailed level of knowledge. Just

9 now, for instance, that there were nine military policemen on the line, I

10 suggest there is no foundation that the witness would have that kind of

11 information.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, I quite agree with you on this point.

13 Mr. Seric, this witness may know or may not know about the answer

14 of your question, because he is not a drafter of this report. He is just

15 a prisoner at that time. You may ask the question by saying that,

16 "According to this report, certain section was commanded by whom. Do you

17 agree? Do you have any knowledge of that?" But I doubt it very much

18 whether your question could lead this witness to somewhere. You may try.

19 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This is

20 what I'm trying to do. The witness is saying that Vinko Martinovic

21 commanded over the entire front line, over the entire operation.

22 Q. But if you look at this report, what do you know about this?

23 Look, look, for instance, at the Health Centre.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

25 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm sorry. I really had made a

Page 6364

1 decision to stay in my chair this morning, and in the first session I was

2 succeeding. But I think this is a characterisation that -- there is no

3 evidence that he -- that this witness has ever claimed that Stela

4 claimed -- commanded the entire Bulevar front line. I don't know of any

5 evidence to that from this witness.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric. Rephrase your question, please.

7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. You make it more easy for

8 me, both you and the Prosecutor, because I was under the impression that

9 Vinko Martinovic was here and there and elsewhere, Bijelo Polje, Hum,

10 Bulevar, that he was -- commanded all over the place, that he had several

11 red buildings in -- under his command. So I'm trying to narrow things

12 down.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

14 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, that again is not fair. It's quite

15 consistent for this witness to say that in the course of 1993, he saw

16 Stela in a number of locations. Counsel has now shifted the debate. We

17 are talking about command of a particular segment of the confrontation

18 line on a separate day, and now because he's -- well, the question has

19 changed, and that's not a fair characterisation of what the witness said.

20 Nor is it inconsistent, I submit.

21 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Let's try to clear this up. You said that you saw Vinko

23 Martinovic in several locations. Do you identify the locations where you

24 see him with his zone of responsibility?

25 A. I have no idea how many soldiers he had under him, but I saw him

Page 6365

1 in Rastani in Santiceva Street, in Rastani, and all over the place, in

2 Heliodrom. There were a lot of soldiers, many brigades there. So please

3 don't ask me too many questions about that.

4 Q. Very well. Let's take it easy. The fact that you saw him on many

5 occasions, can we clarify this? Can you give us a specific answer for

6 each time? Was he alone? Was he in a uniform? Was he with a unit? If

7 we can, we'll go one by one; if not, we'll move on.

8 A. Of course he was in uniform. He was not a civilian. Of course he

9 was carrying weapons. Sometimes he had 50, 60 soldiers around him,

10 sometimes three.

11 Q. Very well. Then let's take it in order. Let's go back to the

12 school of engineering. Tell us, at the mechanical engineering faculty,

13 you could not determine where it was that you exactly saw him. How many

14 soldiers did he have with him?

15 A. I can't remember. I didn't count them.

16 Q. Let's move on. When you saw him in Rastani, how many soldiers did

17 he have with him?

18 A. There were lots of people got killed, I mean of the Convicts

19 Battalion. There were quite a number of soldiers there.

20 Q. Was Vinko Martinovic -- did Vinko Martinovic and his unit

21 participate in that action in Rastani?

22 A. Well, I didn't know exactly whether it was Vinko's unit, but there

23 was fierce fighting because Rastani was taken over now by the BH army, I

24 mean by the HVO, but I know that many people of the Convicts Battalion

25 were killed there.

Page 6366

1 Q. Where exactly did you see Vinko Martinovic in Rastani? Where was

2 that exactly?

3 A. Well, I don't know now, when I tell you I only heard that it was

4 Rastani, but I don't know that. I am not familiar with those places. I

5 only went there to work.

6 Q. Was that - that visual contact that you had - when you noticed

7 Vinko Martinovic? Was it whilst you were working as you were performing

8 your work?

9 A. I saw Vinko then, whether he was commanding. But they were

10 jittery, and I saw how two guys were captured on this side, can't remember

11 the names of those men. And what happened to them, I don't know.

12 Q. And how many soldiers did Vinko Martinovic have with him?

13 A. About 20, roughly.

14 Q. Of his -- from his unit?

15 A. Well, I think it was the Convicts Battalion.

16 Q. And where were you at the time?

17 A. Oh, come on, I can't tell you all that. For a while, we went back

18 and forth, "Go over there. Help that one. Take shells over there. Take

19 something," I don't know, this, "dig. Carry sandbags." I can't tell you

20 all that places. If you're talking about my native place, then I would be

21 able to tell you even when I sleep.

22 Q. Wait a moment. I didn't understand you, and I don't think that

23 the interpreters could get you. You said "back and forth"; is that true?

24 A. Well, yes. "Now you work here at this area. Well, take the

25 shells up there, or ammunition, take sandbags. Move over there. Go

Page 6367

1 there." You're asking me lots about it but I don't know those places and

2 the names of those places. I've never been there except then.

3 Q. And which detainees were with you in Rastani at the time that

4 could corroborate your story?

5 A. Well, there were Mostarians, people from Stolac, from Podles

6 [phoen].

7 Q. Do you know the names? If you know the names, tell us "I do," and

8 then we'll go into private session. And if you don't, just say so, and

9 we'll move on.

10 A. I don't.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 I am not going back to the 26th, but I was forced to say so. I

13 had to go astray, that is, move to this event to ask, you know, what you

14 knew about it. But I'm back to the questions about the 26th of July. In

15 the morning, who was it that took you from Heliodrom, at what time, and

16 where did you go?

17 A. Well, I already said that the Croatian soldiers come and take from

18 here. They take ten. From there, they take five.

19 Q. Please, that day, the 26th of July, in the morning, what time was

20 it and who came to take you away?

21 A. Well, that day it was Stela who came, and some other guys came and

22 going in groups, in groups. I saw Stela that day. I remember it well,

23 where he was looking for Himzo Dzonko.

24 Q. And who else was in that group, but you, who was taken? If you

25 remember those names, then we'll go into private session again. If not,

Page 6368

1 then we'll move on.

2 A. At the Heliodrom, there were about three, four thousand

3 prisoners. I can't remember all those names. I can remember the names of

4 those who were in my room in the central prison, and I was behind bars

5 there.

6 Q. I'm asking you nicely. That day, that morning, the 26th of July,

7 you say you remember that day well. Now, who was taken together with you

8 from Heliodrom to Mostar?

9 A. I can't remember the names, but I know those guys.

10 Q. Thank you very much. We move on. You can't remember that.

11 A. But I remember Karso. Yes, I remember Karso.

12 Q. Now, what will you tell me, sir, if I tell you that I have a

13 document on the taking of the prisoners from the Heliodrom with all the

14 exits recorded, that not a single record we see that it was Stela who took

15 them out, or that man whom you keep mentioning all the time? -- but I

16 won't repeat his name because we're not in the private session.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

18 MR. SCOTT: I'm not sure how this witness is supposed to respond

19 to that question. What if I tell you I have a document? What does he

20 expect this witness to say? I'm sorry, I object to the form of the

21 question, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we also found that very strange.

23 Would you please furnish us and the witness that document.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. It is document --

25 excuse me. It is Prosecution Document, ninth binder, 5434 -- P434.

Page 6369

1 Page 3.

2 Q. And under 69 and 70, you have that day when it was recorded the

3 release of prisoners of war for labour duty. Now, will you please read

4 out to us who was it that issued the order and the person in charge?

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, I wonder whether this document is under the

6 seal, if you ask this witness to read such names. Could we go into the

7 private session for the precautionary reason.

8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree, Mr. President. Of

9 course, it would be better.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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Page 6372

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE LIU: Just control your speed of speaking and the pace of

7 questioning, Mr. Seric.

8 Yes, please.

9 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, Your Honour.

10 Q. Do you remember the driver?

11 A. Well, I wasn't sitting next to the driver.

12 Q. I'm asking you nicely. Do not answer me with counter-questions.

13 There is no need for the argument here. If you don't know, just tell me

14 "I don't know."

15 A. I don't.

16 Q. When did you arrive -- rather, where did they take you that

17 morning?

18 A. Come, you've already asked me that. I told you that if I knew all

19 the places that I had been taken to, I would need a book.

20 Q. Well, then, say "I do not know."

21 A. Well, you're asking me a lot of things that I've already said a

22 thousand times.

23 Q. Well, the point is that you did not answer me. Your answer is

24 best. If you don't know, say "I don't." Don't give me all sorts of

25 stories. I'm asking you again, because you didn't answer my question,

Page 6373

1 where exactly were you taken to that morning?

2 A. Well, where was morning I know --

3 Q. Do you know where it was?

4 A. I know Santiceva, Bulevar, and I could see the Velez stadium not

5 far from there.

6 Q. Does your answer mean that that morning, on the 26th of July, you

7 were brought to Santiceva Street?

8 A. Santiceva, Bulevar, that's it. Up towards the military hospital.

9 Q. Please, Witness QQ, don't give me such answers, because the

10 Chamber will not be able to understand anything. Santiceva Street is one,

11 Bulevar is another thing, and the hospital is a third thing. A moment

12 ago, you said you were brought to Santiceva. Tell us: Were you brought

13 to Santiceva?

14 A. Well, to my mind, this is all Santiceva. But I don't know what

15 those other streets are, but I was brought somewhere there.

16 Q. Please point to us, what is Santiceva Street to you?

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. Excuse me, will you do it again? I couldn't --

19 A. [Indicates]

20 Q. So it is this large, long street that you are showing, the largest

21 in the photograph. To you, that is Santiceva Street?

22 A. Well, that is Santiceva and Bulevar. They come together at Pod

23 Hum. But I don't know what all these streets are called because it did

24 not say. Anyway, I only heard that it was Santiceva.

25 Q. Please calm down. Slowly. Take it easy when I ask you a single

Page 6374

1 question. I'm asking you about one street and one only, so don't give me

2 the names of six streets. Please calm down and try to concentrate and --

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

4 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Mr. President, I will be the first to agree

5 that the witness can sometimes be difficult. I can certainly understand

6 that from my experience last week. However, just now he's given a fair

7 answer. It may not be as precise as any of us in the courtroom would

8 like, but he -- this witness clearly -- has made it clear now for

9 sometime, he clearly, in his mind, associates Santiceva Street and the

10 Bulevar as an area that he's familiar with, as a single area. He doesn't

11 appear to have the sort of precision that counsel is looking for. But

12 he's made this clear now several times, and I suggest we are not going to

13 get beyond that, nor is it fair for counsel to take him to -- require a

14 level of detail when he's repeatedly said he can't give it. Thank you.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you for this

17 opportunity. Of course, the difficulties that my colleague has -- of

18 course, I'm not my colleague's counsel, and I hope you will not

19 misunderstand me, but we who are following the Croatian version are indeed

20 driven to desperation to get the answers because I do not know how you can

21 follow the English interpretation, because I'm following the transcript

22 and I can hear the witness. It is not a sense -- I mean no -- no answer

23 was given to reflect the sense of the answer, not in the spirit of the

24 language and nor the answer that is pursued, and I'm really worried

25 because although this is not my cross-examination -- because I'm really

Page 6375

1 worried how I shall proceed. That is all. Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you have made several interruptions

3 with the -- concerning the languages. We believe that we have some

4 difficulties with the languages used by this witness, but I believe you

5 have your turn for your cross-examination in the future concerning the

6 substantive matters involved in this case.

7 Mr. Seric, we also believe that this witness has made a clear

8 answer to your question already. We have to understand that this witness

9 is not from Mostar. He's not 100 per cent sure about a particular

10 location.

11 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, Mr. President.

12 However, whenever I ask him a specific question, but I simply do not get

13 specific answers, especially to this question. I'm asking where he was

14 brought, and I'm repeating this question. Of course, I can hear the

15 objection from my learned friend, but that is then not his testimony. He

16 cannot testify where the witness was brought on the photograph. I'm

17 asking him to show it to me, because he could not be brought to a street

18 which is several kilometres long. At the same time, one person can take

19 only a certain space at a time. That is a law of physics. Now I'm asking

20 him to show me where he was brought that day.

21 A. Sir, what you are saying about language, I'm speaking my language,

22 you're speaking your language, please point at me.

23 Q. I will, but I must object.

24 A. I thought there was the -- the command was close, near the

25 hospital, though it was never shown where it says "Santiceva," "Bulevar,"

Page 6376

1 "Podhum," "Bijelo Polje," and I remember those names when they would be

2 pronounced, but I do not know whether this is that name or a different

3 name of the street or the village. If you took me down there, then I'd

4 tell you all of that.

5 Q. Right. Then we'll move on. And when did this action start?

6 A. Right. Then send me the report when the action started. I have

7 it noted down. How can I know when the action started? How can I know

8 that?

9 Q. So you don't know that?

10 JUDGE LIU: We are reminded by the interpreters that please do

11 slow down for the record. Because in the future, we rely on those record

12 in an evaluation of the evidence given by this witness.

13 Yes, Mr. Seric. You may proceed in a very slow manner.

14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. You said that that same day, there was this incident with this

16 one - I won't name him; you don't have to either - this incident with your

17 friend. And when did that happen? When did he die? Before the action

18 with the wooden rifles or after?

19 A. Before, before.

20 Q. Wait for me to finish, and then give us your answer. Then let us

21 go back to the morning. You said that you were brought there somewhere,

22 Santiceva, Bulevar, and that there was this action with wooden rifles.

23 You said that it was around 11.00. Where were you exactly? Can you show

24 us on this photograph, at that moment, at the moment when this was

25 happening to your friend?

Page 6377

1 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm sorry, I was confused already.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?

3 MR. SCOTT: I was confused already. In the last moment, I became

4 more confused. I thought we were talking about when this man was shot at

5 a different location, and now I'm not sure whether the question was about

6 when the man was shot - I'm not going to mention his name, but I think I

7 everyone knows who I'm talking about - and when the wooden rifles incident

8 occurred. I think there was also a suggestion, again, of inconsistency

9 which is not borne out in the record. I do not believe that this witness

10 testified on direct examination that the wooden rifles incident occurred

11 in the morning. I don't -- I'll certainly defer to the record and to Your

12 Honour's memory, but I don't think that was the case.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, there are some confusions about your

14 characterisation of what happened on that day, Mr. Seric. Would you

15 please clear it up for us?

16 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Well, that is, Mr. President, why I

17 asked the witness again about the sequence of events that day. Because it

18 is not I who is inconsistent; it is the witness. And that is why I asked

19 him, I didn't try to lead him, and he said that this -- that Zikro Karso

20 was killed before the action with the wooden rifles. That's what he said

21 now. Whether it is consistent with what was said during the direct

22 examination, that is for the Prosecutor, but this is what we heard all --

23 that is, I did not lead him to tell us that it happened before. He was

24 the one who said that.

25 Q. At that moment, Witness QQ, where was that? Namely, you said --

Page 6378

1 you said - and that is why I'm trying to get an answer from you once

2 again - that it was as were you digging a canal next to the hospital.

3 Sorry, sorry. Now, can you please show where is that hospital?

4 A. I can't. I can't. I don't remember. I don't remember this

5 picture at all. It's completely --

6 Q. But is the hospital building in this photograph, according to you,

7 according to you?

8 A. No. Well, I called it a hospital. Whether it's a hospital or a

9 surgery, I don't know, but I know where the hospital is because -- big

10 hospital, I went up there.

11 Q. Let's do it this way. Did this also happen, according to you -

12 because we were unable to clear it up as to the Santiceva Street - so did

13 this also take place on Santiceva Street?

14 A. No, no, no, it didn't, no, no.

15 Q. That site, the scene of that incident, where that incident took

16 place with this man, can you see that on this photograph?

17 A. No, I can't. No, I don't. I don't. You can't see it from the

18 buildings, and you have to think back to that time.

19 Q. Can you specify - because you said today that you did not know

20 where the separation line was, where the front line was - can you tell us

21 how far was it from the front line?

22 A. As the crow flies, about a hundred metres.

23 Q. Forget about the crows flying. Tell us like this. Between you,

24 between the position that you were at and the front line, according to

25 you, was there a building, a row of buildings, or was it a clear space?

Page 6379

1 A. There was a row of buildings. Well, I didn't count them. I don't

2 know how many buildings.

3 Q. You said that a man from Zepce fired at him. You also said that

4 it wrongly says "70 centimetres."

5 A. No.

6 Q. Wait.

7 A. What's the matter?

8 Q. I didn't even finish my question. Where did you see it say

9 wrongly "70 centimetres"?

10 A. Well, I saw it immediately. I forgot to say to the Prosecutor. I

11 said about 170 centimetres shortish, but quite fat, but shorter than I

12 am. 70 centimetres? That's a baby. That is a mistake.

13 JUDGE LIU: Now, we have some problems here. My suggestion is

14 that, Mr. Seric, you just keep your mike on for a while to slow down the

15 pace of questioning and answering.

16 And Witness, you could see there is a red light on the mike. If

17 that light turned off, you begin to answer the question, yeah, in the

18 Defence counsel's mike. Thank you. We will try that way.

19 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Do you recall the name of the person from Zepce who was about

21 170 centimetres tall?

22 A. I do. I do remember, yes.

23 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we go to the

24 private session so that the witness could give us that name.

25 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please

Page 6380

1 [Private session]











12 Pages 6380-6385 redacted private session














Page 6386

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]

11 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness himself

12 mentioned in his statement the title, that is, the rank, and the name of

13 Praljak. We can find it in the transcript. I just asked him for this

14 man's description. That's all.

15 JUDGE LIU: You have to ask some questions about who this Praljak

16 is, because it seems to me there are several persons with this name.

17 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour. And

18 that has nothing to do with the witness. There are several persons named

19 Vinko Martinovic; there are several persons who go under the nickname

20 Stela. I am not trying to move to another -- on to another subject; I'm

21 just trying to clarify this with the witness. But where shall I start

22 from? Let's start it this way.

23 Q. Do you know, who was the person with the last name Praljak with

24 whom you talked about your release?

25 A. Can I say -- I asked Ante Smiljanic, who was the commander of the

Page 6387

1 police in that camp, how I could get out. I was not arrested on the front

2 line -- I'm just trying to explain it to you.

3 Q. Was this a person, General Praljak?

4 A. I did not know whether he was a general or not, and I described

5 this man. He had those shades, too. He was sitting in an office behind

6 that central prison. I did not know who was general and who was something

7 else. But the person was named Praljak, and he was in charge of

8 something.

9 Q. Do you know the name of this Mr. Praljak?

10 A. No, no. I cannot recall the name exactly.

11 Q. Very well. You said towards the end of your examination-in-chief

12 that you could thank to Stela, that you shared a lot of bread with him.

13 What were you trying to say by that?

14 A. We spent time in prison together. He cannot remember me now. I

15 have lost a lot of weight. And we spent a lot of time together in the

16 Zenica correctional centre.

17 Q. You say that you had a lot of contact during the war. Did you

18 ever approach him? Did you ever try to remind him you had memories that

19 you shared in common? Maybe it would have affected your fate there.

20 A. No. After the prison, I went my own way, he went his own way, and

21 we did not visit or stay in touch. We met when this fateful war started.

22 I wish we had met in a bar where we could have drink.

23 Q. What were your relations when you were in Zenica together?

24 A. They were good. Of course, he was better looking then. He was

25 slimmer, too.

Page 6388

1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

2 questions.

3 JUDGE LIU: Cross-examination, Mr. Krsnik.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness, let me introduce

7 myself. I am the attorney of the accused Mladen Naletilic. I have a

8 slight cold, so my voice is a little raspy. I have some questions for

9 you, not too many. I'm going to ask you for your cooperation. You know

10 the question/answer problem so that we can get through with this. Will

11 you be so kind as to listen to my question; and then when I turn off my

12 microphone, you answer.

13 My first question to you, Witness, is: You said during your

14 examination-in-chief to my learned friend that you gave some statements to

15 some kind of police. Whether this was AID or something else, it doesn't

16 matter. But the statements related to your experiences in the camp?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Regardless of the fact that in your statement you said that this

19 statement was given in the organisation of the AID, but did you sign

20 anything? Was a record made of it? Where was this? I think you also

21 mentioned the year. Was year was this?

22 A. 1997. I came back from Germany, and suddenly - it was 10.00,

23 11.00; I had to drink with some company - some men came to look for me.

24 My wife said that I was in town. They found me through the police in

25 town. They picked me up. It wasn't difficult to find me. It's not such

Page 6389

1 a big town. They found me in a bar. They did not show me any badges or

2 anything. And I said, "Could I at least take my stuff home?" I had some

3 suitcases. And I told my wife that, "I don't know, they want me for

4 something." And I [sic] said, "Did you do something?" I said, "I didn't

5 do anything." Then I went along with them. For one hour, I gave a

6 statement in the Ministry of Internal Affairs. They said that, "We

7 received a report from Mostar that you knew -- know a lot," that I

8 couldn't imagine that I would come this far. And then I gave the

9 statement.

10 After that, in 1999, I got a visit from the -- an investigator

11 from The Hague. He introduced himself and then we went to a hotel. I

12 gave a statement there in a hotel room. Later on, I went to Sarajevo,

13 gave another statement. And then I got into trouble. Then I got another

14 visit, and I said, "I was ready to help, but now I can't." And I said

15 also, I had -- nothing bad happened to me either in Mostar, Ljubuski, or

16 Siroki Brijeg. I didn't -- I only got two teeth knocked out by somebody

17 who went by a nickname "General." He was not a general, he was just a

18 common soldier, but he hit me with a pistol. So I had a say a little bit

19 here, a little bit there, so that everybody would be happy. Thank you.

20 Q. Now, can I take you back to this thing in the prison? You said

21 that you received a visit when you were in prison and that -- were you

22 roughed up a little bit, or threatened a little bit or something? You

23 said that you had to go --

24 A. No. It was the correctional centre of Zenica, but now this is

25 under the auspices of the international community. So I was taken to this

Page 6390

1 room and obviously it was tapped, and I think that somebody fingered me

2 that I had to go to The Hague. And, you know, I like to be free, I like

3 to move about. And then the deputy warden -- can I say the name?

4 Q. I think you can. This was an official, prison official; right?

5 A. The warden, Zlatko Dubic [phoen], I believe, is his -- he's with

6 the HDZ. And the deputy is another, I think, Croat, Slavko Maric. I had

7 a lot of pressure from all sides, so there were conflicts and there was

8 some abuse, and I served the full sentence, full year, because of that

9 incident. Then I moved on and I started working with lumber.

10 Q. Very well, Witness. I don't know if I understood you correctly,

11 but correct me if I'm wrong. In fact, you were forced to come here? In

12 other words, you would not come here of your own free will?

13 A. Not as far as the investigators are concerned. They requested me

14 and I said, "Okay. Well, I was involved. I'll come so that I can satisfy

15 all sides." After that, I received various threats.

16 Q. Very well. No, no, no, no. I'm not interested in that, just how

17 you came here. Now, the statement that you gave to the police. When the

18 investigators from The Hague arrived, did they have this statement?

19 A. Yes, they did. They had it.

20 Q. Witness, I'll be as fair, as correct, as I always am. I just

21 assumed that you received that statement because I myself never received

22 it, and I believe that we should have received it because that would have

23 been fair. I immediately saw that you stated it very clearly to the

24 investigators of the Hague, and now you confirmed it for me, that indeed

25 the investigators from The Hague had that statement, and we, however, did

Page 6391

1 not receive it. However, this is a procedural issue which I will take up

2 with the Trial Chamber.

3 Witness, you said that a person called Robo, Robert, Robi,

4 whatever --

5 A. Yes. That's his nickname. I don't know his real name, but he was

6 called Robi.

7 Q. Now, how do you know that he was from the Convicts Battalion? How

8 did -- this was in Tomislavgrad.

9 A. I cannot say. They were all over the place. I could take your

10 uniform with your badge, I can put on a mask, stocking, and I can go and

11 steal and loot, and you can say whatever you want, and you can blame it on

12 the Convicts Battalion.

13 Q. Thank you very much for answering it this way. So you just

14 assume?

15 A. Of course, I just assume who -- that that's who it was.

16 Q. Also, now that we mention Birkans Hill, or Brkanovo Brdo, you said

17 that you saw Tuta there. Was he there by accident? What was his reason

18 for being there, if you know?

19 A. Gentlemen, I was not in charge. I was not some kind of a colonel

20 to know what the reasons for anything.

21 Q. Thank you, Witness, for this answer. Now, I don't want to bring

22 things up for you, but I want to just start asking you some things about

23 the Heliodrom, and we'll move to the break very soon. You said that you

24 worked in the kitchen. Was this kitchen also -- did this kitchen also

25 prepare food for the prisoners?

Page 6392

1 A. No. It was specifically -- in fact, the food was cooked somewhere

2 else, and it would be brought there. And I was sort of put in charge of

3 it, so I had to go around and I -- I had to feed a lot of people.

4 Sometimes I would give some extras here and there.

5 Q. Thank you. The question was how the witnesses [as interpreted]

6 were fed. Be honest.

7 A. Honestly, it was a camp. It was wartime. It was just a little

8 bowl of rice. What else could they expect?

9 Q. What about other food?

10 A. Sometimes there would be a loaf split into 16. Sometimes it would

11 be split into four, eight, three. Sometimes some people were killed and

12 so on.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think we've reached

14 the point where we are due for a lunch break.

15 JUDGE LIU: By the way, the previous several questions, we don't

16 see the relevance to this case, about the food in the kitchen,

17 Mr. Krsnik.

18 MR. KRSNIK: Food in the kitchen -- [Interpretation] I thought we

19 were talking -- we wanted to -- I think we -- it is relevant to know what

20 kind of food the inmates were getting at the Heliodrom because we heard a

21 number of witnesses give evidence.

22 JUDGE LIU: But not this one. But not this one, I suppose.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] But he also mentioned that he worked

24 in the kitchen, that he was involved in food distribution. So I just

25 wanted to expand on it a little.

Page 6393












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6394

1 JUDGE LIU: Anyway, we'll resume at 2.30 this afternoon

2 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
























Page 6395

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Can we go on? Did you have a rest?

5 Witness, will you please tell me, in how many buildings at the

6 Heliodrom were there -- what shall I call them? Camp inmates, detainees,

7 in how many buildings were they kept?

8 A. Well, it was a big barracks. I learned outside the building that

9 it used to be the Central Military Prison where we were. There were bars,

10 too. There were three floors.

11 Q. You mean the Central Military Prison of the former army?

12 A. Yes. And in the halls where the former Tito's army was, I went

13 all over this compound. I know every nook and corner in it. And then in

14 that building where they were conducting anti-toxic research, there were

15 two holes there where people took baths. It was a large building. On my

16 floor, on my side, there were 300 -- 200 -- 300 people.

17 Q. So we are talking about one building in which the camp inmates

18 were?

19 A. Everywhere. In the school where they held classes, in the sports

20 hall, and so on.

21 Q. And tell us, who guarded those buildings?

22 A. The HVO police.

23 Q. You mean the military police?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were they at the entrance of every building?

Page 6396

1 A. There were two or three at every door. It varied.

2 Q. And they were controlling people coming in and going out?

3 A. Yes, yes, they did. He, I mean the policeman, asks for as many

4 men as they need for work. So two or three soldiers come, and they take

5 away 20, 30 men. They need them.

6 Q. Tell me please, these persons whom you mentioned, Smiljanic, you

7 know, all the others that you mentioned - no need for me to repeat them -

8 they were the military police of the HVO, is it?

9 A. Yes, they had, I guess, their office, Ante Smiljanic's, and I

10 could see that he was a sort of a commander of that police, and that was

11 it. He decided what needed to be done.

12 Q. Just a short question: Will you tell me, please, you said when

13 you were answering my learned friend that you were personally present --

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] And could we go into private session

15 very briefly, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

17 [Private session]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 6397

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [Open session]

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Did you personally see that it was the Croatian army at the

15 Heliodrom, or is it something that you heard and then you drew your

16 conclusions?

17 A. Sir, I am just telling the truth. They were, yes. There was

18 Bruno Busic. I saw that brigade there. There were a number of those

19 brigades. I saw the Pumes and Thunderbolts and the Tigers. I know the

20 Croatian army. I know all the Croatian municipalities because I ate my

21 first bread in Croatia, so I knew them all.

22 Q. But you tell us there was a lot of troops there?

23 A. Yes, lots of troops, lots.

24 Q. Did they have any patches of the Croatian army?

25 A. Well, I knew men from the Tigers who came from Zagreb. They had

Page 6398

1 them, but they removed them. They tore off the patches and put something

2 which had nothing to do with -- just either stick some stickers on the

3 tanks. I mean, I'm being very candid.

4 Q. No, no, no. That's fine. But tell us, where were they

5 accommodated? I don't want to show the photographs of the Heliodrom.

6 A. Behind the central prison, there was a barracks, and we had to

7 carry beds there for their accommodation, and I recognised two Bosnian

8 Muslims who were there. One was from Teslic, so that one knew immediately

9 that they were Tigers. And I saw them all.

10 Q. But those Muslims were members of the Croatian army, is it?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. So since you knew or saw or learned whether they were volunteers,

13 volunteers who had been born there in Bosnia -- that is, Herzegovina,

14 because I see you mention Muslims from Teslic and so on and so forth,

15 because Teslic is in Bosnia, isn't it?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I don't see anything in this witness's

18 testimony about those being volunteers. That was completely injected by

19 counsel. I object strongly to that.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you have to give this witness a fair

21 characterisation of his testimony.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, all the witness said

23 was that he had recognised some Muslims from Teslic, and Teslic is in

24 Bosnia. So my next question, of course, is whether I can infer from

25 this. I didn't try to put any answer into witness's mouth. I said what I

Page 6399

1 said: Is that how -- can I conclude on the basis of that that they were

2 volunteers? That is my question.

3 A. No, not volunteers but people who had domovnicas, who had families

4 there, so they had to naturally. There was the call-up. Secondly, I --

5 at Malo Polje on the Buna, I also met the Tigers, where they were, and --

6 Q. Right, right. That is what I wanted those men from Bosnia. They

7 had Croatian domovnicas, Croatian papers, and therefore they were Croatian

8 nationals?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. And as such, they were called up?

11 A. Yes, of course.

12 Q. Thank you very much. You see, it was very simple to get an

13 answer. Thank you very much.

14 And now I will ask you, this Mr. Ajanovic - there is no need to go

15 into private session - you said that you knew him for a long time, that

16 you asked to work together and so on and so forth. Is his -- is his

17 nickname Handzar.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The witness shows with his hand, "No."

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Well, just tell us that it is not.

21 A. No, Reuf Ajanovic and Stipo Barbaric, who was married to Mirjana

22 Barbaric who was cooking for us and bringing the food as ordered by

23 Mr. Tuta.

24 Q. And tell us, please, do you know a Hunter, somebody whose nickname

25 was "Hunter" and was Ajanovic's friend?

Page 6400

1 A. No, I did not ever have the opportunity to meet him and didn't

2 hear anything. I know there were many people. I remember one in Bijelo

3 Polje.

4 Q. Right. So Mr. Ajanovic came to take you to Siroki Brijeg, isn't

5 it?

6 Now I will show you a photograph, and I will ask you to please see

7 if you can identify it. This is Exhibit 26.11. Do you know what is on

8 this photograph?

9 A. Very well, very well, very well. And I remember one hundred and

10 some days that is where I slept.

11 Q. So you slept in this facility and you pointed at it?

12 A. Yes, I did, the second floor, a room on the second floor.

13 Q. I don't know. What shall we say? Room to the left on the second

14 floor?

15 A. Yes, here, around the corner, behind the tree, around this side.

16 Q. And in that room, you spent all those 120 days, as you told us?

17 A. Yes, yes. Well, we walked around. We went downstairs and around

18 later on, yes.

19 Q. And so you had freedom of movement?

20 A. No. If I may continue, Mr. Tuta ordered Reuf Ajanovic to bring

21 me -- so if you want me to tell you all this; right? And on the 13th --

22 it was the 13, not the 11th. It was a mistake, and he had papers, too.

23 So I was taken away in a black Mercedes, because he was in a uniform --

24 Q. No, no, no. We'll come to that later. All I wanted was to

25 establish where is it that you were.

Page 6401

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE CLARK: [Microphone not activated]

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm sorry, Your Honour. He

4 moved on to another topic which I wanted to tackle later on. I wanted to

5 finish first with where he was accommodated, and then I'll come back to

6 what the witness has started to tell us.

7 JUDGE CLARK: We've had about three attempts to tell us the story

8 about the black Mercedes, and it never gets beyond that. And I'm curious

9 who drove the black Mercedes, who was in it, and...

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Right.

11 Q. Well, please, be so kind and tell us the story about the black

12 Mercedes.

13 A. Yes, please. Mr. Reuf Ajanovic -- at that time, I didn't know the

14 uniform, but he visited us several times, me and another guy. And I

15 recognised him. Maybe when he came the fourth or the fifth time, and I

16 asked him, "Sir, were you ever on a construction site in Baghdad?" And he

17 said, "You're asking me a lot. [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Please take care.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] If his name is there, can it be

25 stricken out.

Page 6402

1 Q. Mind that you don't mention the names. If it is not in the

2 transcript, then it is all right. But just don't ever mention your name.

3 I know it happens to me, too, because we all get carried away. Please be

4 careful not to mention your name.

5 And then in that black Mercedes, he took you to Siroki Brijeg; is

6 that it? For the Chamber, is that it?

7 A. Yes. In a black Mercedes, he took me -- I can't remember the name

8 of the restaurant. I was poorly dressed, and he left me outside. I got

9 out, and I smoked three cigarettes with him in front of the building. And

10 he said, "I'm taking you to the old man." When he said "old man," I

11 thought "the father." But in the bar, there was Mr. Tuta, Stela was

12 sitting, and some other soldiers. And I could see from the glass how Tuta

13 said, "Bring him in here." So I came in. He told me to sit at another

14 table. I sat down. And he ordered beer for me, so I had a beer. They

15 were talking about something. That was it.

16 Q. Tell us, I believe during the direct examination, you also said

17 that he fed you, that he treated you to a lunch and all that?

18 A. Yes, everything, everything.

19 Q. And out of that, all those 120 days, did you have food, whichever

20 you wanted, the clothes were bought for you, and footwear?

21 A. Well, I can say -- I cannot say that I was in the camp during that

22 time, because Tuta ordered them to bring me whatever food I asked for and

23 even drinks, and roast meat on New Year and Christmas, and cigarettes, and

24 chocolates. I smoked four packs of cigarettes because Tuta had ordered

25 Mirjana or Milijana to bring them for me.

Page 6403

1 Q. So we can agree that practically you were not held in captivity in

2 Siroki Brijeg?

3 A. Well, I would not allow that something like that be said, but

4 there were other problems there.

5 Q. Witness, just one more thing, if you can help me to clear up. I

6 will show you another photograph. This is 25.5. My question is as

7 follows: Yesterday my learned friend asked you questions about it, and

8 you said you worked, and I heard you well when you said you were doing

9 something with the vegetation. Now, will you please tell the Chamber what

10 you were doing on that occasion. Then my second question will come.

11 A. Well, Mr. Tuta said that I was not to be taken anywhere, to any

12 construction sites, and there were some soldiers. He gave a soldier to

13 guard us with the rifle, but I could take the rifle and he'd get drunk and

14 kill him and leave. But I didn't want to do it, because I realised that

15 I'd survive. We were taken to the tobacco station to rooms, but all the

16 rooms were all right. Two or three times they took us here to unload

17 something and clearing it up and things like that.

18 JUDGE LIU: Witness, when you are answering questions, please

19 pause after each sentence and speak very slowly because the interpreters

20 have a very difficult time.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness, I shall repeat the two questions for the transcript,

23 because what you just said is not in. So you were guarded. You were

24 guarded from drunken soldiers?

25 A. Yes, there was a young man from Vrbanja, from the bridge with a

Page 6404












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6405

1 rifle. He had a rucksack of ammunition and grenades in the room. Later

2 on, he said he came from Vrbanja Most in Sarajevo and that he could come

3 to the Convicts Battalion with Juka.

4 Q. And my second question was: You were unloading something at this

5 house, and that is all?

6 A. Yes, and clearing, clearing up.

7 Q. You mean clearing the ground?

8 A. Yes, I mean the yard and whatever there was to clear it up.

9 Q. And that is all that you did?

10 A. Yes, yes, yes, it is.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel and witness please break

12 between question and answer.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

14 Q. But yesterday you said that Mr. Naletilic did not know about that,

15 and when he heard that you had been taken there once, that he was very

16 angry?

17 A. He did not know because they took us all over the place, and this

18 one liked to consume alcohol. He brought it sometimes to us, because it

19 was brought to that young man from Split. An uncle or something brought

20 him money. So we were once visited in a room by him, and he and his wife

21 were sitting, but Tuta didn't know it. They took -- to place me before

22 the firing squad, but Tuta didn't know that, and I also noted that he did

23 not know that.

24 Q. Tell me, please, do you know if any investigation was conducted by

25 military police or police in relation to this suborning or bribing? You

Page 6406

1 can call it whatever; you can correct me. Was there any investigation

2 conducted about it, and was that the reason?

3 A. Yes. I suppose that was why Tuta looked for me. I don't know how

4 he found out that I was down there, but he knew my name, of course. And

5 people were coming out with huge amounts of money out, and I was helping

6 them so that I could come out and in [As interpreted] those policemen.

7 Q. Do you know that an imperative action had been taken against those

8 men and that they were charged, or rather, that an investigation was

9 conducted and that in relation with that investigation, you also made a

10 statement to the military police or somebody? Is that correct?

11 A. Very well. That was the SIS in Mostar. This Ajanovic again took

12 me there, so I made a statement. I remember it was Ramadan. And down

13 there, they allowed us to warm up a little because it was cold. It was

14 snowing. It was February.

15 Q. Yes, yes, yes. You told us about this yesterday. It was

16 February, but it was about this investigation that you made a statement

17 isn't it?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Do you know that they wanted to take you back to the Heliodrom by

20 force?

21 A. No, I don't know.

22 Q. You don't know?

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, well, well, that's too fast.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Did you ever -- now I will show you a document, Number P698.

Page 6407

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, no, no, no. 698, P698.

2 [In English] Sorry, because mine is very short. [Interpretation] My

3 apologies, Your Honour, I believe there is a confusion because I see that

4 something is written by hand. Now, it is my mistake, my apologies, my

5 mistake. 697, one number, one digit less. I'm sorry, I was looking at

6 the next document up.

7 Q. I'm sorry, Witness, my mistake. My question, did you ever see

8 this?

9 A. I was shown it last time.

10 Q. I mean, this is the first time that you are being shown this, if I

11 am right, Witness. Don't put it on the ELMO because your name is written

12 there. Did you know that the military police was looking for you and that

13 an order had been issued that you were to be brought back to the

14 Heliodrom?

15 A. I did not know, but now I am reassured of it. I had heard that

16 from the fellow inmates when we had a meeting, that they had searched for

17 me.

18 Q. Now, my question was - and I'm going to try to frame it in such a

19 way that I elicit no objections - can I conclude, is it true that, in

20 fact, Tuta hit you?

21 A. When we were to look at all sides, that is how it would seem,

22 because I think we need to tell the full truth, but that's how it would

23 come out.

24 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you mentioned the date when you left Siroki

25 Brijeg. I'm not going to repeat it now. Tell me, did you receive

Page 6408

1 everything you needed for that trip, that is, money, clothes, and so on?

2 A. I stand by this. On the 14th of February, we went to the SIS.

3 And it was Ramadan. This man did not want to -- he didn't want to touch

4 any alcohol, so he gave it to me because of Ramadan and he was a

5 faithful. So I drank it all, and I said, "Well, now I can be killed."

6 Q. You said all this yesterday.

7 A. Yes, I'm just repeating. And when we arrived at the hotel, the

8 Milijana whom we called our mother, "You're going home." And I said,

9 "It's funny. Tomorrow is Tuesday. I was born on a Tuesday. I was

10 released on a Tuesday. I don't believe this." But the -- he ordered it

11 to Stipo Barbaric - that is, Reuf Ajanovic - and Vinko, to release us, and

12 then the next day we were transferred to another room, and he said, "Go

13 and get dressed. Get ready." He took a bottle of whiskey, and a taxi, he

14 took off the licence plates, and he drove us. He -- I remember -- I will

15 always remember, because it was -- there was a bottle of whiskey, Johnnie

16 Walker, and I thought this is the end, they were going to kill me

17 somewhere along the way. So I kept drinking. We had a police control at

18 Imotski --

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, the question is a very, very simple

20 one. You could just answer that question and do not repeat what you told

21 us last week. The question is: "Tell me, did you receive everything you

22 needed for the trip, that is, money, clothing, and so on?" It's a

23 yes-or-no question.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we received it.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

Page 6409

1 Q. Thank you. Now, let me show you a document, P746.1. Can you

2 please tell me now -- you will see that this is a record, that is, a

3 criminal report. Is the name mentioned there the same as the name of the

4 person who told you to look for people who had money and so on? Is that

5 the same person?

6 A. Yes, Saba was the one who took us to the border, to take the

7 money.

8 Q. And you'll see who the accomplices are. You can see there, those

9 names, at the bottom, added in handwriting at the bottom, the accomplices?

10 A. Yes, that's right. Ante Smiljanic. I can't read out the other

11 name; I can't make out. I think it's Bozic.

12 Q. And two statements given by you and your friend are part of this

13 report. Will you please look at that statement? You will see that,

14 thanks to your statements, this criminal report was then processed and

15 action was taken. And also, the number of your statement -- first of all,

16 is this your statement? Can you look at it and confirm it for me?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, look at your registration number and the number under which

19 the criminal report was recorded.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In other words, you and your friend were the two witnesses on the

22 basis of whose statements this criminal report was filed?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you give me the date there?

25 A. It was on the 16th of February, 1994.

Page 6410

1 Q. Very well. After your criminal report and after the criminal

2 charges were filed, thanks to Mr. Tuta, you left?

3 A. Thanks to Mr. Tuta, I survived. And I can be very thankful to

4 him. I'm very grateful.

5 Q. And also, you uncovered this crime?

6 A. Yes, this was uncovered. I don't know how they came to me, but

7 this is what really happened, and I know about this.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I must object for the record. There is

10 no evidence in the record whatsoever that criminal charges were ever filed

11 or concluded. I think that's -- that states things not in evidence.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we will -- we checked

14 the transcript. These are the documents that were provided to us by the

15 Prosecution. I am just using them. And it says, "Action taken." This

16 was an operation called "Spider." And then the crime is described, the

17 witnesses are listed, and that the criminal charges were filed. I don't

18 know how far the whole case went. I just wanted to establish that on the

19 basis of the evidence provided by the witness and his friend, this crime

20 was uncovered, identified, and a certain action was taken. And the

21 witness simply confirmed that, and I thank him for it.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, we are only interested in the relevance to your

23 client in this particular matter. You have to understand that.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is difficult for me

25 to draw a clear line between relevant and irrelevant. In my modest

Page 6411

1 understanding of this, it was relevant why somebody arrived in Siroki

2 Brijeg, why he was in the hotel, why he gave the statement, why this crime

3 was discovered, and so on. But that covers everything I needed to know.

4 And I thank you, sir, for all your evidence, and I thank you for

5 your efforts and your time and I have no further questions. Thank you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination, Mr. Scott?

9 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour

10 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:

11 MR. SCOTT: If I could have the usher's assistance, please, and

12 the registrar's assistance. Could I please mark this prior statement for

13 identification, the witness's prior OTP statement? I have the English

14 version and the B/C/S version. And the B/C/S version should, when marked

15 for identification, be put in front of the witness, please. Or if you

16 wish -- excuse me.

17 If it's easier, Mr. President, to save time, we can mark it

18 immediately following the testimony. For the record, however, I've asked

19 the usher's assistance in placing before the witness a copy of his

20 statement to the OTP dated -- taken the 18th of March, 1999.

21 Q. Of course, again, Witness, we are not going to refer to your name

22 for purposes of protecting your identification.

23 MR. SCOTT: The witness has been given a -- the B/C/S version of

24 his statement. I'm just looking, Mr. President to double-check again

25 whether there is any disclosure issue that might be -- I don't think there

Page 6412

1 is an issue that needs -- requires private session.

2 Q. Witness, can you please look in your statement? I want you to

3 direct your attention in the B/C/S version -- I realise now I just handed

4 that to you, which I had marked so I could direct to you the right page in

5 the B/C/S version.

6 MR. SCOTT: If I could have a moment, Your Honour?

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

8 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Usher, can I have your assistance, please.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

10 MR. SCOTT: Go ahead.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies, and I

12 will pull back immediately. This is not something that I know from my

13 practice, but if we follow some legal logic, the Prosecution is -- should

14 not be in a position to attack his own witness. Her Honour Clark, I

15 believe, referred to this as a hostile witness. I think that this

16 questioning should take a different tact. I am not an expert in common

17 law, but I would like to establish whether this is the situation, so that

18 we all know.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I believe you have a little bit

20 prejudged the results of this re-examination. Up to now, we don't know

21 the purpose of showing the previous statement to this witness.

22 Maybe Mr. Scott could give us some hint whether you are going to

23 attack your own witness or not.

24 MR. SCOTT: I do not intend at this moment to attack my own

25 witness, Your Honour. However, I do intend to show that given the nature

Page 6413

1 of cross-examination by both counsel on some issues, that his prior

2 statements have been perfectly consistent with statements that he has

3 given in Court. I have a couple of statements in his 1999 statement which

4 I want to have him confirm for the Chamber's attention.

5 JUDGE LIU: If so, you may proceed.

6 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Usher, could I have your assistance, please.

7 Could you swap -- could I please trade the witness this version for the

8 one that is on the witness stand. Thank you very much.

9 Q. Witness, I want to assist you by -- you can find this statement

10 I'm going to refer you to on the third page of the -- of what we would

11 call the B/C/S version, the Serbo-Croatian version, of your statement. If

12 I can direct your attention to the fourth paragraph on that page, the

13 first words in that paragraph are: "After a week ..." Just walk through

14 me with this here so we can do this as easily as possible. Do you find

15 the paragraph that says "After a week ..."; yes or no?

16 A. Yes, I found it.

17 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to the last part of that

18 paragraph. Not the beginning I just sent you to, but to the direct -- to

19 the last part, the last few sentences. And is it correct, sir, that in

20 March 1999, you stated as follows: "I was initially with the people that

21 were given the uniforms and wooden rifles. This was on Santiceva Street.

22 I was then taken away to work at a different location and did not witness

23 what happened to these detainees. I do not know any of the names of these

24 people. I was later told that some of these detainees were killed. As

25 soon as I returned to the prison, I heard from other prisoners Stela was

Page 6414

1 the commander for this wooden rifles operation."

2 Was that the statement you made in March 1999, sir? Just simply

3 yes or no.

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. Let me likewise, please, direct your attention to the top in your

6 statement. It's the first paragraph on the next page, starting with the

7 words "The soldier who did the killing ..." On the 18th of March, 1999,

8 sir, did you make this statement: "The soldier who did the killing was

9 short, maybe 170 centimetres. I do not recall his name, but he was from

10 Zepce as well. I saw this man recently in Zepce. There are a lot of

11 people from Zepce who were members of the KB. One of these soldiers who

12 was in the KB now owns a bar in Zepce. His name is Jakovljevic." Sorry,

13 that one I cannot do. But for the record, it is J-a-k-u-v-l-j-e-v-i-c.

14 Is that the statement that you made on March 1999, sir?

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour. I believe

17 that this is a cross-examination now. [In English] No?

18 [Interpretation] Her Honour Judge Clark says it is not, so I

19 withdraw my objection.

20 JUDGE LIU: Answer the question, please.


22 Q. Is that the statement that you made, sir, in March 1999?

23 A. Yes, this is true, and I stand by it.

24 Q. And one more final document. Then I have just a couple of other

25 questions on other matters. If I can next direct your attention to page 6

Page 6415












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6416

1 of the version you have in front of you, sir, page 6. And on your

2 document, it will be the sixth paragraph on that page starting with the

3 words, if you can find these words "While in Siroki Brijeg ..." Do you

4 see that? Have you found that? Page 6 of the Serbo-Croatian version,

5 about the sixth paragraph on that page starting with the words "While in

6 Siroki Brijeg ..."

7 A. I can't see page 6 here.

8 Q. If I can direct your attention to the bottom of the numbered

9 pages, you should find a number "6." Now, if you can find the sixth

10 paragraph on that page starting with the words "While in Siroki

11 Brijeg ..."

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you make this statement on the 18th of March, 1999: "While in

14 Siroki Brijeg, I often saw Reuf Ajanovic and some other soldiers from

15 Zepce who I suspect were HVO. One was Jakovljevic" - and again, my

16 apologies - "Jakovljevic and his brother, whose nickname was Zub. They

17 were in Stela's unit."

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, Mr. Krsnik.

19 Yes, Mr. Krsnik, you first.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I believe we need to be fair to the

21 witness, because in out -- our translation reads, "While in Siroki Brijeg,

22 I saw Reuf Ajanovic and some other soldiers from Zepce, who I suspect were

23 HVO, or I believe were the HVO." So I believe that the Prosecutor should

24 also provide a Croatian translation to the interpreters if he is putting

25 it to the witness.

Page 6417

1 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm looking at my question, line 19,

2 and that's exactly what I said. So I'm not sure what the objection is.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, in English, there is "I suspect were HVO".

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Well, only if to "suspect" and to

5 "think" is one in the same, because it is "of whom I thought," rather

6 than "whom I suspected to be the HVO." At least it's in the Croatian

7 version. I know. And I apologise to the interpreters. I believe that

8 the interpreters had a copy. What else can I do but simply lodge an

9 objection?

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much to draw our attention to this

11 point. We'll bear that in mind.

12 Mr. Seric.

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe now that the

14 Prosecutor found himself being inconsistent, because he said Mirko

15 Jakovljevic. Today, in the cross-examination the witness said Mirko

16 Jakovljevic.

17 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, would you please make it clear for us.

18 MR. SCOTT: Of course.

19 Q. First of all, let me finish the outstanding question. If you

20 remember, Witness, the statement that was read to you a moment ago:

21 "While in Siroki Brijeg ..." -- I won't read the entire statement, but do

22 you recall was that, in fact, a statement you made in March 1999? And you

23 can simply tell us yes or no.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, perhaps you heard the question that counsel just raised in

Page 6418

1 connection with the name of this individual that you believe may have done

2 the shooting of this other prisoner. Is there anything more you can tell

3 us about that, if you remember anything more about the first name of this

4 individual or any other name concerning that matter?

5 A. Yes. I know this person nicknamed Zub, last name Jakovljevic. He

6 has a twin brother, and he had Mirko, who is a cousin, who was killed in a

7 car accident. And they had burial in Siroki Brijeg. People talked about

8 it. And he brought me a pack of cigarettes and told me how his brother

9 was killed. It was a brother, not a cousin. I saw him recently. I was

10 passing through Zepce with a friend, and I saw him. And he called me on

11 the -- I think that it was he who made a phone call. This was a phone

12 threat. I was talking to my wife today, and apparently it was he who made

13 this phone threat about my coming to the Hague. There are a number of

14 these men who were from Zepce.

15 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I was going to cut the witness off, but

16 obviously he has already given his answer on that. And actually, I think

17 it is relevant for the Chamber to hear.

18 Q. Turning, then, to one final aspect of your statement. And again,

19 I will ask the Chamber - excuse me - the registrar to assist me at the

20 conclusion of the testimony to give this a correct number for

21 identification. Can I have the usher's assistance to please hand this to

22 the witness.

23 THE REGISTRAR: The statement is ID2.

24 MR. SCOTT: Thank you very much.

25 Q. Now, Witness, can you tell us what that document is that has just

Page 6419

1 been put in front of you?

2 A. I drew that with my own hand. The 18th of March, you can see the

3 date, '99. This was dealt there at the AID. Now I see that AID

4 interviewed me, too. I drew Hum and Brkanovo Brdo and overview of the

5 Stari Most, the old bridge.

6 Q. Since the Judges, Mr. Witness, won't have this document in front

7 of them at this point and so they know what you're looking at, is this a

8 document that you drew concerning the locations of Mount Hum, Brkanovo

9 Brdo, and the overview of the old bridge, and that you drew this sketch

10 yourself in March 1999? Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, this is my drawing, and I drew it a little -- that is where I

12 moved around on Brkanovo Brdo, Hum, and those other places. And this is

13 true. And on Citluk and other places, and this is true.

14 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, on that document --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

16 MR. SCOTT: That document, Mr. President, it will need to be under

17 seal because of the names on the document. But on that particular

18 document, I will ask the registrar give that an exhibit number for

19 tendering, or again, we can do it after the conclusion of the testimony.

20 Q. Mr. Witness, I want to turn your attention now to the topic of

21 this arrangement that you became involved in concerning the obtaining

22 payment for the release of various prisoners. Shortly before the time

23 that you were -- the second interview that you had with the SIS, which is

24 part of the document that counsel showed you, which is marked as 746.1 --

25 can that -- do you still have that, Witness?

Page 6420

1 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Usher, can the witness please be shown again

2 Exhibit 746.1? It should be in the binders, but whichever is easiest.

3 Q. Now, Witness, to -- can you tell the Chamber again the date that

4 you made this statement to the SIS, the statement that is now -- your

5 statement that is part of 746.1?

6 A. 14th of February, 1994.

7 Q. Now, Witness, can you tell the Chamber, please, around this time,

8 and before the second interview with the SIS, did you have a conversation

9 with Tuta?

10 A. Yes, I did. I went to see him in his office, and he brought Ante

11 Smiljanic. He was there when I was there, and he heard him order, "You

12 will be punished." And then I was returned to the place where I was

13 there, and it was Ajanovic who drove the car all the time.

14 Q. Do you remember receiving any instructions about when you were

15 interviewed by the SIS on this second occasion, on the 14th of February,

16 1994, what you should tell them?

17 A. I did not receive any instructions because I was saying as I had

18 experienced it.

19 Q. And what did you tell -- well, looking at your statement, which

20 is -- counsel has shown to you as part of 746.1, and if you can find your

21 statement, please, in that bundle, if you find the paragraph toward the

22 end of your statement where you make the statement that on the --

23 approximately - I'm paraphrasing for now because I'm looking at the B/C/S

24 version - but on the 13th of October, 1993, you were taken to meet with

25 Tuta in Siroki Brijeg? Do you see all that?

Page 6421

1 A. I do. Yes, it's true. It's true what it says here. It's true.

2 But may I? On the 14th, I -- on the 13th, I was taken up to the coffee

3 bar. On the 14th, I had this conversation with Tuta.

4 Q. Tell us about your conversation. Did you have a conversation with

5 Tuta also in the coffee bar?

6 A. No, not in the coffee bar. I just approached, and he told me to

7 sit down and have a drink. I did. I can't tell you how many. I'm sure

8 about one, but whether I had another drink, the second drink, I'm not

9 quite sure, at another table. And then I guess he must have ordered - I

10 didn't see the talk - Ajanovic, Tuta ordered him to take me, and he took

11 me where he was supposed to take me.

12 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you again: Do you recall being given any

13 suggestion or instruction by anyone around that time as to what you should

14 tell the SIS about this arrangement when questioned the second time?

15 A. Well, as far as I can remember, he asked me, "Whom do you have

16 abroad that is so interested in you?" And I said, "I've got a friend." I

17 don't know if that is the question. Because this friend of mine

18 interceded on my behalf, informed Ante Roso and Tudjman and Susak, and

19 everybody knew about me. And later on, I learned that many people

20 interceded on my behalf. But I was not at the Heliodrom, and that is why

21 the report was made that I had been taken out on the 13th of February,

22 1993 -- sorry, 13th of October.

23 Q. Yes. Witness, did Tuta know that you'd already been questioned

24 once about the S -- by the SIS about the situation?

25 A. I cannot know if he knew or didn't. I didn't ask Tuta or anyone

Page 6422

1 else whether he knew. I know that they took me to be interviewed.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I am a little late because I do not

4 have this reflex, this common-law reflex. This question pursues

5 speculation on behalf of the witness, did he know, if he knew, and I think

6 that the -- my learned friend asked for speculation.

7 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, only if this witness could answer

8 if he knew, if he had a conversation with Tuta about it or not. If he

9 says he didn't know, he didn't --

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, Mr. Krsnik?

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, but the question could be put

12 differently, without asking the witness to make any speculations.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, the question is a kind of speculation. You may

14 skip this question, Mr. Scott.

15 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

16 Q. And, sir, is it correct that it was two days after this interview

17 that you were placed in this car, given clothing and money by Tuta, and

18 sent out of Bosnia?

19 A. Yes, it is correct, true. I received the information that Tuta

20 had ordered it. I dressed nicely. They took us -- he took the car. He

21 could not take his car, because he could not thus cross the Croatian

22 border, so he asked a cab driver, and asked him to take off the plates.

23 But I don't want to go into all that. So we got to Imotski, to the

24 border, and the police stopped us.

25 Q. Let me stop you there. When shown this report, which is marked

Page 6423

1 as - excuse me - 746.1 by counsel a few minutes ago, you saw this name

2 Saba. Was he the person who drove you out of Bosnia?

3 A. No, no, no. Saba was engaged in contraband and smuggling with us,

4 and Saba Smijic [phoen] went to be punished, and Reuf Ajanovic and this

5 other person - I don't know his name - who took us to the border. And

6 there was the Croatian police control there at the border, and we spent

7 some three or four hours in the police station in Imotski, as the

8 information arrived that we should be allowed to go.

9 And I saw a gun. Reuf Ajanovic had a gun which he placed in the

10 Imotski police and which was the award from Boban, and I thought, well

11 that would be fine. And he said, "Well, I know Muslims and all that, but

12 you turned out to be a gentleman because you are alive." So we arrived in

13 Split. He paid a round of drinks. "This is what the old man gave for

14 you." "The old man" means Tuta. That is how they addressed him, as "the

15 old man."

16 Q. Do you know how much money this group of HVO persons made in

17 receiving payment for prisoners from the Heliodrom to be released?

18 A. May I -- I arranged for about ten men who were abroad. They gave

19 me that to work, and those people who had somebody abroad, which means

20 about 100.000 marks then. But I heard that more people came out, because

21 I heard there was another group which was doing this same thing. There

22 was a man who escaped from the border because he didn't have money to give

23 and a brother came to fetch him, and he fled from the Slovenian police and

24 there is also this record on the Bregana. Thank you.

25 Q. And of this 100.000 deutschmarks, did you receive any of that

Page 6424

1 money?

2 A. No, never any, but they simply promised me that I would also be

3 able to leave Heliodrom with assistance. They took my passport away, and

4 I heard that the police -- that my passport had been sold, but the police

5 already found it, so I was hoping, I was probing, asking people, we were

6 lying one another, "Go, manage on the border. Let me come out. I have

7 two children. Who is going to provide for them?" And all our inmate

8 ordeal.

9 Q. I'm going to stop you there.

10 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm a little bit

12 confused - excuse me - I never asked this witness about money, about

13 Heliodrom, about whether he received any money. I never asked him about

14 this. I never questioned him about what had happened at the Heliodrom,

15 only with the help of these papers' assistance to establish the -- to

16 identify the perpetrator of a crime, and that was all. And I really don't

17 understand the questions. He's asking his witness whether he participated

18 in the distribution of money when the inmates left the camp, whereas I

19 never asked those questions in my cross-examination, and besides, I do not

20 really think that this is done. And now because he's now trying to

21 disqualify this witness, if I understand it well -- although I must admit

22 that I am understanding less and less with every day, but I'm learning

23 with every day. I'm doing my best.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, as I understand the re-examination

25 should be kept within the cross-examination. It seems to me that you are

Page 6425

1 far beyond that scope.

2 MR. SCOTT: Not at all, Mr. President. Counsel asked this

3 question this witness a series of questions about the release -- the

4 money -- the release of money, release-of-prisoners-for-money scheme on

5 page 83 of the transcript. He put documents, exhibits, in front of this

6 witness, including Exhibit 697, about this. He also asked about Tuta

7 providing him money to leave the country, and also asked that, "Wasn't it

8 as a result of this that in fact a crime was discovered and reported?"

9 All of that is quite relevant, and I --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Can you slow down, Mr. Scott, please?

11 MR. SCOTT: My apologies to interpretation. And there is one

12 final question I would put to this witness.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to respond, Your

14 Honours? May I be allowed to respond? We can go back to page 83. I

15 never asked that. Maybe my learned friend mixed up -- mixed two

16 situations, his departure from Siroki Brijeg on the 16th of February to

17 Split and onward and the situation which happened three months before that

18 at the Heliodrom. Perhaps he got them confused. The 16th of February and

19 the departure of this witness from Siroki Brijeg has nothing to do with

20 the period 120 days earlier at the time when he was at the Heliodrom and

21 when these releases of inmates and detainees were being released. These

22 are completely two different situations. About that situation at the

23 Heliodrom, I absolutely never mentioned any money or anything else. I

24 merely asked him if he participated in reporting that crime, this witness

25 here together with my client Naletilic, and I believe that is very clear.

Page 6426












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6427

1 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, well, well, I believe that you have asked the

3 question already. You told us you have only one question to follow-up.

4 MR. SCOTT: I do have one.

5 JUDGE LIU: Finish your question. We have spent enough time with

6 this witness already. Now, tomorrow, we are going to have the videolink

7 witness in the afternoon.

8 MR. SCOTT: That's right. Mr. President, I don't know what you

9 believe the procedure would be. But on this particular item, on this

10 particular question, I do believe the witness has become hostile. I have

11 a question put to him.

12 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed with your questions.

13 You may proceed, Mr. Scott.

14 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Mr. President, Your Honour, my

15 apologies. My learned colleagues do not speak the English language

16 fluently, and they did not catch the last exchange where Mr. Scott deemed

17 this witness to be a hostile witness. I don't believe this witness is in

18 any way a hostile witness. I don't believe, in good faith, anybody in

19 this courtroom could believe that he is a hostile witness.

20 My colleagues -- and the only reason I'm standing is my colleagues

21 did not catch it because the English language is not their native tongue.

22 But I suggest to Your Honours that before this witness can be handled as a

23 hostile witness, the Bench must make a finding of this hostility, and

24 there has been none shown so far. And I apologise for standing, but my

25 colleagues don't speak English as a native language. This witness is not

Page 6428

1 hostile.

2 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek, first of all, I have to repeat once again

3 this is Mr. Krsnik's witness. I understand that there's a language

4 difference, but Mr. Krsnik should take the floor to make that objection.

5 Secondly, whether this witness is a hostile witness or not, we'll

6 leave it until we evaluate all the evidence we gathered from this witness,

7 but not now. We are running against the time. And Mr. Scott has promised

8 me that he has only one question to ask this witness. Let him finish this

9 question first.

10 Yes, Mr. Scott.

11 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Q. Mr. Witness, listen to my question: Is it not true that several

13 days before you were interviewed by the SIS a second time, that Mr. Tuta

14 approached you, asked you to protect him in this investigation, and

15 suggested to you that you tell the SIS that this was all a matter

16 concocted by the HVO military police?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I object to this question because

19 this is a leading question through and through and asking the witness to

20 give an answer to a question in such a leading manner, and that is why I

21 object.

22 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, not only that I object

25 to the question, as my colleague has said, but it seems to me that the

Page 6429

1 Prosecutor is now embarking on a cross-examination of the witness. Now,

2 we are really faced with a situation when we have to ask ourselves, What

3 is going on?

4 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, that's the reason --

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, we don't think this question is quite

8 relevant. And this question is kind of a leading question, it is true.

9 It is outside the scope of the cross-examination, so this question should

10 not be allowed.

11 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. I accept your ruling.

12 JUDGE CLARK: I also think, Mr. Scott, that a remark that I made

13 to your colleague, Mr. Stringer, a few weeks ago: Don't presume that the

14 Bench are children.

15 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, far from it. Quite far from it. But I

16 thought on this particular question, and that's why just to explain --

17 JUDGE CLARK: We picked it up a long time ago.

18 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Judge Clark. I have no further questions

19 for the witness, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from Judges?

21 Judge Clark.

22 JUDGE CLARK: Yes. Could I direct this question to Mr. Seric

23 before I put the question to the witness. Did I understand you correctly

24 to say that your client, Mr. Martinovic, did not know this witness at

25 all?

Page 6430

1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you are quite right, Your

2 Honour. That is, the Defence affirms - and I am transmitting the view of

3 my client - that he has never seen or heard this witness.

4 JUDGE CLARK: That includes the period before the war and during

5 the entire period of his incarceration in either Siroki Brijeg or the

6 Heliodrom?

7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes, including the whole period of

8 war. And as for the before, once again, he simply does not recollect that

9 they were ever serving time together in Zenica.

10 JUDGE CLARK: And does that include the meeting in Siroki Brijeg

11 as well? He never ever had any contact with this person before the war or

12 during his period of incarceration?

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is how it is. Quite

14 right. You understood it very well indeed.

15 Questioned by the Court:

16 JUDGE CLARK: I just wanted to ask you, Witness, one question. I

17 appreciate that you have a different version and Mr. Martinovic has a

18 different version, and this is a dispute that we will have to deal with

19 and decide at the end of the day.

20 Can I just ask you one question: How long after the meeting with

21 Mr. Tuta in Siroki Brijeg while the investigation with the SIS was

22 continuing -- do you know the dates? How long after the meeting with the

23 SIS were you released from Siroki Brijeg?

24 A. May I?

25 JUDGE CLARK: [Microphone not activated]

Page 6431

1 A. The last time was on the 14th of February, 1994, and I was

2 released on the 16th of February, and I have papers to prove it.

3 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you very much, indeed.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for giving your evidence. When

5 the usher pulls down the blinds, he will show you out of the room.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

7 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender into

8 the evidence? Yes, Mr. Scott.

9 [Witness withdrew]

10 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Exhibits P889 and P752.2, which I

11 believe were the Red Cross records, of course, under seal. I don't

12 believe they need to be tendered - they have been tendered before - but

13 Exhibit 121, photograph 16, was used, a photograph of Mount Hum.

14 Exhibit P11, photo 3, a photo of the old bridge Stari Most was used, but I

15 believe it's previously admitted. I note only for the record that

16 Exhibit 704 was shown to this witness. But again, it has been tendered

17 before this; that is the list of Convicts Battalion members. 649, the

18 report about being taken to Siroki Brijeg. Exhibit P682.

19 Counsel tendered -- I believe effectively tendered Exhibit P746.1,

20 the criminal report concerning the scheme. If counsel did not intend to

21 tender, that I will. Exhibit P746.1. And then there was that last, his

22 hand-sketch drawing of his view of the Stari Most. And I don't have

23 a number for that yet.

24 THE REGISTRAR: That is P891.

25 MR. SCOTT: P891. My thanks to the Registry.

Page 6432

1 JUDGE LIU: If the witness did not make any marks on a map or a

2 photograph, then there's no need for them to admit it into evidence

3 again.

4 MR. SCOTT: That's right, Your Honour. I just mentioned that he

5 had made reference to those documents. You're absolutely right.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 Any objections? Mr. Krsnik.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] To begin with, I should like to ask

9 my learned friend to help me. Which exhibit is 686? What is it about?

10 Can you help me, please. And 649. Could you please help me.

11 MR. SCOTT: Of course. If I can find them myself at the moment.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. 686 and 649.

13 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, Exhibit 649, to assist counsel, is the

14 16th of October, 1993 HVO military police report confirming that Reuf

15 Ajanovic had taken this witness to Siroki Brijeg. That's Exhibit 649.

16 Exhibit 686 is a copy of an HVO document concerning the fact that,

17 again, that the witness had been taken to Siroki Brijeg and certain

18 questions about Mr. Naletilic having requested that records concerning

19 prisoners be provided to him in Siroki Brijeg.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much.

22 Thank you, my learned friend. You know my position regarding these

23 documents, but I have nothing against the Chamber's reading them and

24 drawing their own conclusions. This witness took a long time, so I have

25 no objections.

Page 6433

1 JUDGE LIU: [Previous translation continued] ... objections.

2 Mr. Seric?

3 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] No, I have no objections, Your

4 Honours. As for P746, it can be the Prosecution's exhibit. I am not

5 trying to tender it. I have no objections, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Do you have any documents to

7 tender?

8 Mr. Krsnik?

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I think the

10 proposed exhibits exhausted the list.

11 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the photographs, but the

12 witness did not draw anything or mark those photographs, so I really see

13 no purpose in tendering them.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies. We are

15 really working very hard. I think that the photograph of the hotel which

16 the witness identified we need not tender -- offer into evidence because

17 it had already been identified before. Simply I hope that the record will

18 show that the witness confirmed that it was the photograph of the hotel.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. All those documents tendered by

20 the Prosecution through this witness have been admitted into the

21 evidence. It is so decided.

22 And tomorrow, we'll begin with our videolink conference which will

23 start at 2.00 until 7.30 in the afternoon.

24 Yes.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My apology. My last question -

Page 6434

1 excuse me - regarding the schedule. Is it true that we shall work until

2 11.00 on Thursday and then resume at 9.30 on Friday? Did we get the

3 schedule right? This is Thursday, this week.

4 JUDGE LIU: On Friday, I think, next week.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [In English] This week Thursday until 11.00 p.m. --

6 JUDGE LIU: No, I think it's the December the 3rd, 2001, we will

7 start from 4.30 until 11.00 p.m.

8 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President.


10 MR. SCOTT: Not to try the Court's patience, but I think this is

11 good news, I think. Nobody probably in the courtroom would probably be

12 able to appreciate this, but out of a strange question of the state where

13 this one witness for the 3rd of December - and I won't mention the name

14 for protective purposes - but that particular state is very odd. It does

15 not go on what we call winter time, so in reality, there's one less hour

16 time difference, and it may save everyone a little sleep. We could

17 actually start at 3.30 and go to 10.00 p.m. The schedule could be

18 advanced one hour because of the actual time difference, if that assists.

19 I'm happy to go to 11.00 if the Chamber would rather go to 11.00.

20 JUDGE LIU: As we said before, that we only have one witness for

21 one day. No matter how long we have to sit, we have to finish that

22 witness to allow the representative from the registrar and other

23 personnels to travel.

24 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough. On

25 your scheduling order, Item 3(a), all I'm suggesting is - and I think you

Page 6435

1 actually corrected it earlier today, and I apologise for being in a

2 situation for going back the other way. What I'm suggesting is we can

3 start on the 3rd of December, Monday, we can start at 3.30 Hague time and

4 hopefully finish earlier, rather than starting at 4.30 and going later.

5 JUDGE LIU: We have to check it about the time difference.

6 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I'll be short.

8 I see we are working until half past 9.00 in the evening on Thursday, I

9 mean Thursday two days off. And then we resume on Friday at 9.30 in the

10 morning. Mr. President, we are on the brink of our forces. We've really

11 come to the -- because we also have to get ready for the next day. We are

12 coming to the end of our tether. We just don't know what kind of witness

13 we have. Maybe we will have to prepare the cross-examination, because all

14 this will be late in the evening, and I'm saying that we are really coming

15 to the end of our tether because we are here, but that's how it is. But

16 of course, I'm not going now to start to open a discussion on this. Thank

17 you very much.

18 JUDGE LIU: We will take your suggestion into consideration. What

19 I want to remind you is that each of the videolink conferences provides

20 4.5 hours for the testimony of the respective witness. Pursuant to Rule

21 90(F), the Prosecution will have two hours for their examination-in-chief,

22 and Defence will have two hours altogether for the cross-examination, for

23 each of the videolink witnesses. The remaining 30 minutes of each session

24 are reserved for the Judges' questions to the witnesses.

25 If any party cannot finish their cross-examination or

Page 6436

1 examination-in-chief, we have to send a warning to them when the time

2 arrives.

3 We will resume at 2.00 tomorrow afternoon.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

5 4.06 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day

6 of November, 2001, at 2.00 p.m.