Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6623

1 Thursday, 29 November 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 3.04 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Stringer, do you have anything to

9 address the Court?

10 MR. STRINGER: No, Mr. President, we're ready to proceed with the

11 next witness?

12 JUDGE LIU: There's no protective measures with this witness?

13 MR. STRINGER: You're correct, Mr. President. The witness has

14 requested that he has a pseudonym, but no other protective measures.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I guess there's no objections from Defence

16 counsel. Thank you very much.

17 [Witness testified via videolink]

18 JUDGE LIU: Witness, would you please stand up. Would you please

19 make the solemn declaration in accordance with the paper the usher is

20 going to show to you.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE LIU: It seems that we have some problem with the sound. We

Page 6624

1 don't hear the witness.

2 Yes.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good afternoon. Thank

4 you. There is interference, which very noisy. I don't know if you can

5 hear it, but it is impossible to follow, all of us.

6 JUDGE LIU: Mark, can you hear me? Would you please say

7 something. I'm sorry, we cannot hear you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you, you may sit down, please.

11 Yes, Mr. Stringer.

12 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Before I begin, I could inform the Trial Chamber of the relevant

14 parts of the indictment, which are paragraphs 9 and 11 of background;

15 paragraphs 15, 16, and 17 regarding superior authority; the general

16 allegation of widespread and systematic campaign, paragraph 21;

17 paragraphs 25, 27, 28, and 34 of count 1; counts 2 through 5 regarding

18 forced labour; and paragraphs 46 and 50 of counts 9 through 12, which

19 relate to torture and beatings.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Would you please inform us about

21 his pseudonym, please, for the sake of the record.

22 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. I believe that the pseudonym

23 for this witness will be TT.

24 Examined by Mr. Stringer:

25 Q. Witness, can you hear me and see me?

Page 6625

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. Before I start asking you questions, I can inform you that

3 the Trial Chamber has granted your request to use a pseudonym during your

4 testimony so that you will be called "Witness TT", and I will refer to you

5 with that pseudonym during your testimony, and I ask you not to say

6 anything that would tend to identify you to those who are listening and

7 watching today. Okay?

8 A. Okay.

9 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I am picking up a fair amount of

10 background in my headphones. I can proceed, but I don't know if anyone

11 else wants to proceed with it this way.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [In English] Every one of us also.

13 JUDGE LIU: Really.

14 MR. STRINGER: I noticed the Defence microphone is on also, maybe

15 that would...

16 JUDGE LIU: You may try.

17 MR. STRINGER: I'll try.

18 Q. Witness, can you hear me now?

19 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, but the technical booth said turn the

20 remote witness -- okay.

21 MR. STRINGER: For everyone, the audio remote witness dial should

22 be turned down, and everyone should otherwise control the volume with the

23 button that's normally used. Is that correct? Okay, I'll attempt to

24 start.

25 Q. Okay, Witness, I apologise for the trouble. There's a piece of

Page 6626

1 paper which Mr. Dubuisson is holding, the man seated next to you, and I

2 would ask at this time that you look at that piece of paper and tell us if

3 that piece of paper contains your true and correct name.

4 THE INTERPRETER: We either cannot hear the witness or we have

5 very strong interference. Sorry.

6 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, from the English interpretation

7 booth, I have been informed that the interpreters are having difficulty.

8 THE REGISTRAR: I have been informed that the Defence should use

9 the volume control, and the English speaking booth should also.

10 JUDGE LIU: Another thing is that I wonder whether we could lower

11 the lights in this courtroom so that we could see the picture more clear.

12 THE REGISTRAR: We would like to do a test just to make sure.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Witness needs to say something so that we can

14 see if we can pick up his voice.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Can the witness please say something, his

16 pseudonym perhaps.

17 THE INTERPRETER: If we take the remote control off, then we

18 cannot hear the witness. If we put on the remote control up, then the

19 interference is too strong, and we, again, cannot hear the witness.

20 THE WITNESS: I didn't understand what you were trying to tell

21 me.

22 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, perhaps it may be best to just a

23 short break until this is sorted out.

24 JUDGE LIU: We'll adjourn for 10 minutes.

25 --- Break taken at 3.14 p.m.

Page 6627

1 --- On resuming at 3.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: I hope everything is okay. Mr. Stringer, you may

3 try.

4 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Q. Witness, can you hear me now?

6 A. I can, yes.

7 Q. Witness, let me just ask you a couple general questions about your

8 background. Are you a Bosnian Muslim who was born and raised in the

9 village of Sovici in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. And in April of 1993, were you a member of the village defence or

12 the Territorial Defence in Sovici?

13 A. I was, yes.

14 Q. And at that time, was it part of your job to man a position near

15 Sovici at a place called Duga Grude?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. Were you at this location, Duga Grude, on the morning of 17 April,

18 1993?

19 A. Yes, I was first at the Mackovica, and that same morning, I moved

20 to Duga Grude before the attack.

21 Q. You mentioned an attack. Can you tell us what happened, at what

22 time the attack started and how you became aware of it?

23 A. It happened on the 17th of April in the morning sometime between

24 7.00 and half past 7.00. We saw troops moving towards our positions, and

25 I went to a place called Duga Grude. And then shells began to fall on the

Page 6628

1 positions. And Jablanica was shelled for two days, too.

2 Q. Witness, tell me, what time did the shelling begin when you were

3 at Duga Grude?

4 A. Around 7.00.

5 Q. Was that in the morning?

6 A. Yes, yes, in the morning.

7 Q. Were you able to tell from your position where the shelling was

8 coming from?

9 A. The shells came from the direction of Risovac and Vozdac, and from

10 down there, from Sovicka Vrata, from that area around there.

11 Q. At that time were you aware or did you know what army or what

12 units were deployed in those places that you just mentioned?

13 A. No, we didn't know that. We knew that it was the HVO, but not

14 what part of the HVO.

15 Q. Now, how long did the shelling continue?

16 A. Until afternoon, until half past 3.00.

17 Q. And where were you during the time that the shelling was taking

18 place on that day?

19 A. On the positions at Duga Grude.

20 Q. Now, can you tell us what you did then when the shelling stopped

21 that afternoon?

22 A. We withdrew to the woods, which is below our positions, and waited

23 for the night to fall. And then to move on to the village of Munikoze.

24 Q. When you withdrew into the woods, were you able to see the village

25 of Sovici or any part of it after you had gone into the woods?

Page 6629

1 A. Yes, I saw the upper part of the village, whole of it.

2 Q. Would that be what's called Gornja Mahala?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. What were you able to see? What was happening in Gornji Mahala

5 from your position in the woods?

6 A. We saw HVO men calling out our women and children to go to the

7 school -- or rather, to the bus. And they were already entering the

8 hamlet of Cilici.

9 Q. Where is the hamlet of Cilici located?

10 A. It is to the right, in the direction of Obruc.

11 Q. Is it in Gornji Mahala or another part of the village, or are you

12 able to give us a better idea for those of us who don't know the village

13 well?

14 A. Yes, it is Gornji Mahala. It is a hamlet right above the school.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [In English] We lost the picture.

17 MR. STRINGER: Yes, we lost the picture, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE LIU: Madam Registrar, would you please see to it.

19 THE REGISTRAR: I've just been informed that we are connected but

20 they need to check something, so it will take just a minute.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. STRINGER: It appears we have the picture back, so ...

23 Q. Now, witness, just before we were interrupted, you were telling us

24 about what you saw from your position in the woods. Then what did you do

25 that -- on the rest of the day, which is the 17th of April? Where did you

Page 6630












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Page 6631

1 go? Where did you spend that night?

2 A. We spent the night -- or rather, that day we headed for Munikoze

3 and that is where we stayed one night.

4 Q. And then the following day, the 18th of April, tell us what you

5 did on that day.

6 A. Then, from Munikoze we started for the village of Parcani, which

7 is also in the Prozor municipality, and there we spent another night.

8 Q. Now, by this time, can you tell us, were you accompanied by any of

9 your comrades from the Territorial Defence or the army?

10 A. Yes. We were nine altogether. That is 11.

11 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I have one question for the witness

12 in private session, please.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, we will go to the private session, please.

14 [Private session]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 6632

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [Open session]


5 Q. Now, Witness, can you tell us what you did, then, you and the rest

6 in your group, on the next day, which would have been the 19th of April,

7 and where did you spend the night of the 19th of April?

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]


15 Q. Now, witness, the following day, the 20th of April, can you tell

16 us what happened on that day?

17 A. On the 20th of April, we only walked about two kilometres down

18 from the place where we had spent the night and by a stream, we were to

19 wait for the night to fall so that we could go through the village of

20 Doljani. But around half past 3.00, the fire was opened and that is where

21 we were captured.

22 Q. Now, who captured you?

23 A. Members of the HVO. They were mostly -- rather, no. All of them

24 were from the village of Doljani.

25 Q. How many HVO soldiers captured you?

Page 6633

1 A. Well, I can't -- I can't say exactly, but I'd say there were seven

2 or eight.

3 Q. Now, can you tell us, you say they captured you. What does that

4 mean? How did they capture you and what did they do after they had

5 captured you?

6 A. Well, when we were in the woods, some were asleep, some were

7 sitting, and then we heard gunfire from all sides, as we were in a hollow,

8 and then my friend was wounded, and they told us to surrender and to

9 discard our weapons, and we did that. And then they came to us and tied

10 us, and then I asked that we dress the wound or at least bandage the wound

11 of this friend of mine, and they allowed us, and then we carried him down

12 to the hamlet of Orlovac.

13 Q. And what did you find when you reached the hamlet of Orlovac?

14 A. We found there some soldiers too. We did not know who they were.

15 They told to us empty our pockets. We did that, and then we set off

16 towards the command, which was next to the church where they had their

17 command. This used to be a fish pond once.

18 Q. Now, Witness, at this time I'm going to ask that the Registrar

19 show you a photograph that has been marked Exhibit 8.8, and I'm going to

20 ask you if you recognise anything in that photograph.

21 A. Yes. That is where the HVO command was, and Mijat Tomic unit.

22 That is where I was brought in front of this command.

23 Q. Now, can you tell us in detail, as best as you remember, how were

24 you brought to this place and what occurred as you arrived there?

25 A. They ordered us to move in a single file towards this commander,

Page 6634

1 and we did. And there was waiting for us, as I learned later, Tuta and

2 some other soldiers. But as I was the first one, he hit me in the face,

3 and I fell, and he ordered that everybody else should go down. And then

4 they ordered us to kiss the Croat soil and to crawl. And so we crawled

5 until we reached a wooden something, a cow shed or a wooden hut, something

6 like that.

7 Q. Now, Witness, you said that you were struck by someone, and I want

8 it to be clear in the record. Who is it that struck you at this place

9 that you've just described?

10 A. Later on, I learned that it was Mr. Tuta.

11 Q. Now, were there others with Mr. Tuta at this place?

12 A. Yes, there were some other people whom I didn't know. One was a

13 big man, a tall man, and they also beat us as we crawled, and they kicked

14 us in the stomach and in the ribs.

15 Q. Were there other soldiers in this place? How many people -- how

16 many HVO people were present in this location at that time?

17 A. Well, there were quite a number. I recognised the three

18 neighbours. There was also Stipo, the driver. There must have been at

19 least 20, as much as I dared look. But I was -- we dared not lift our

20 heads. We had to look at the ground.

21 Q. Were you able to see what units any of these soldiers belonged to?

22 A. Yes. I saw on some of the soldiers, say Bruno Busic, and others

23 had Kaznjenicka Bojna patches.

24 Q. Now, you said that there was a point where you were to start

25 crawling toward the cow shed or the hut. And at this time, I would ask

Page 6635

1 you to take that photograph, Exhibit 8.8, with a pen and place a number 1

2 at the location where you had to start crawling. And then place a

3 number 2 at the location of this hut or this shed that you've described.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. All right. Now, Witness, the shed that you've described, is the

6 shed itself shown in this photograph that we're looking at?

7 A. No, you can't see it. It's not there. It was there before, but

8 it's gone now.

9 Q. Now, Witness, you also mentioned that when you arrived at the

10 location number 1, there was a big guy there. And I wanted to ask you if

11 you know, if you know who that person was?

12 A. Well, I didn't know. But later on, when I saw papers later,

13 newspapers, it could be that it was Andabak.

14 Q. So you didn't know who the person was at the time, however?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to ask the registrar to show you a

17 document which has been marked as Exhibit 299.1.

18 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, it's a new exhibit which has been

19 distributed. I think it is now being presented to the Trial Chamber. The

20 Defence has it.

21 Q. Witness, this is two pages, the second page of which is the

22 document in its original Serbo-Croat language. If you just take a look at

23 this document, I'm going to ask you two questions about it.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, any question asked of

Page 6636

1 this witness in reference to a document can only mean inviting

2 speculation. Look at the date, look at what it is about and what it

3 says. I think this is merely -- that my learned friend is merely trying

4 to offer this document through this witness, and now we realised who that

5 was, I think that any answer that this witness will give can be

6 speculation and nothing but speculation.

7 JUDGE LIU: Up to now, we don't know what kind of question the

8 Prosecutor is going to ask. We will have your objections recorded in the

9 transcript, and let us hear what Mr. Stringer is going to ask.

10 Yes, you may proceed, Mr. Stringer.

11 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Q. Witness, my first question about this document is whether you see

13 the name of the person Andabak that you've mentioned in this document.

14 A. I do.

15 Q. My last question about this document is, moving down to the last

16 line which appears above the signature, there's a reference to a place

17 Sovicka Vrata. And could you tell us, if you know, what is that place and

18 how does it relate to the events that you're talking about?

19 A. It is a locality. When you go from Sovici to Risovac, there is a

20 small gorge, and then Risovac comes. So that is the boundary of

21 Jablanica. On this side, you have Sovici and Risovac. So it is kind of a

22 boundary or a gate into Sovici and Risovac. And it was controlled by the

23 HVO.

24 Q. Was this position involved in the attack on Sovici on the 17th of

25 April?

Page 6637

1 A. Why, yes. They held it. They had the checkpoint right below it.

2 Q. Now, this person that you think is Andabak, can you describe him,

3 as best as you recall from the person you saw on that day.

4 A. Well, he was big, strong built. He had glasses. But it was a

5 long time ago, and this is more or less what comes to my mind right now.

6 Q. Do you recall how he was dressed?

7 A. Oh, no. Well, he was in a uniform, in an army uniform.

8 Q. Do you recall how Tuta was dressed?

9 A. Tuta -- at that time, Tuta had a black shirt and camouflage

10 trousers.

11 Q. Witness, while we are on the subject -- well, we will come back to

12 it later. Now, you have told us about how you were hit and then you and

13 the others were made to crawl to the location you've marked as number 2.

14 Can you tell us then what happened after you and the others arrived at

15 this place, location number 2?

16 A. When we crawled up to that place, we went up on our knees, and

17 then he took inside the shed first Fikret Begic, then Denis Skender, and

18 when Denis Skender came out, Tuta approached me and Fikret and said he is

19 to put us before the firing squad because we were responsible for the

20 death of some of his men, and he wanted to separate us from those others.

21 Q. Now, let me ask you, when you arrived with the others at this

22 shed, what were the other soldiers present, the HVO soldiers, what were

23 they doing as you and the others arrived at that location?

24 A. They walked up and down. Some were around us, striking us,

25 ordering us to pick grapes, that is to stretch upward and then they would

Page 6638












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Page 6639

1 hit us in the stomach, and others again were laughing.

2 Q. If you could, describe for us in more detail what you mean by

3 "picking the grapes"? Particularly how -- what was your position and how

4 were you beaten as you were "picking the grapes"? Just so we understand

5 what you're talking about.

6 A. Yes. When we got there, they ordered us to kneel and then to

7 reach up as if we were picking grapes, and then they beat us in the --

8 around the area of the stomach and rib cage.

9 Q. Okay. Now, just so we are clear, who was being beaten? You say

10 they were beating "us."

11 A. I was beaten, then my friend Amir, and the other two or three who

12 were there with me.

13 Q. How many altogether were in your group by this time?

14 A. We were nine. The six of us were captured right away, and the

15 three of them started fleeing and they were captured a little later.

16 Q. All right. Now, while this -- these beatings were taking place,

17 this "picking of the grapes," was Tuta present while that was happening?

18 A. No. He was inside. He was taking people inside one by one to

19 interrogate them.

20 Q. And where were these interrogations taking place?

21 A. Inside the shed.

22 Q. Okay. Now, if you know, who was the first person that was taken

23 inside the shed?

24 A. As far as I can recall -- shall I say the first and last name?

25 MR. STRINGER: Well, Mr. President, maybe we could go into private

Page 6640

1 session and I could get some of these questions out of the way.

2 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session, please.

3 [Private session]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [Open session]

Page 6641

1 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.


3 Q. Now, you mentioned two people who went into the shed, and if you

4 recall, can you tell us what happened after the second of those people

5 then came out of the shed?

6 A. Then Tuta came out and separated me and my friend and said that he

7 was going to have us executed.

8 Q. Can you tell us what exactly, as best as you can recall, what did

9 he say to you? How did this exchange take place? Just describe it for

10 us.

11 A. He came out of the shed, and he pointed his finger at me and my

12 comrade and said that he would have us executed because we were to blame

13 for the deaths of some of his men. And he looked at me in the eyes and

14 said, "Are you afraid?" I said, "No." And then he hit me again in the

15 face --

16 Q. Now, then what happened after you --

17 A. -- with the Motorola.

18 Q. Witness, then what happened after you had this exchange of words

19 with Tuta?

20 A. He then went in the direction of the shed and went in. Then my

21 comrade, who was with him in his unit, he came over and said, "What is

22 this? Who is this --" and I asked, "Who is this who wants to have me

23 shot?" And he said, "Tuta." He said, "Wait, I'll go in and see what he

24 wants."

25 Q. Okay, Witness, now, this person that you said was your comrade,

Page 6642












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Page 6643

1 what unit did he belong to, just so we're clear?

2 A. He belonged to the Convicts Battalion.

3 Q. Is this someone that you had known before the conflict started?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, again, what is it that he said to you?

6 A. He asked me what I was doing there and said, "Where are you

7 going?" And I said where -- I was living near Jablanica. And then I told

8 him that this man wanted to have me shot. And he said, "Who?" And I

9 didn't know who it was. And so I said, "That old man." And he said, "Oh,

10 Tuta." And then he went over to Tuta and they talked something.

11 Q. All right. And then what happened after they had their exchange?

12 A. Then Tuta came over to me and said -- he asked me whether I wanted

13 to save my skin and my comrade's skin. And I said yes. And then he said,

14 "Come on in." And the big man, Andabak, also went in with us, and then

15 we went in. And Tuta asked me about Arif Pasilic when he was in Sovici

16 for the last time. And I said I only saw him on television. And then he

17 asked me about Kulja, Salem Dlakic, and I just knew that he was the

18 battalion commander there for a while. And then he said, "Who brought you

19 the weapons?" And I said, "They collected some money in Germany and they

20 brought it here." And then he said, "Okay, very well. You saved your

21 skin and of your colleagues, but if you do it again, I'll find you."

22 Q. How long did you remain in that shed with Tuta and the others?

23 A. I was there no more than ten minutes, perhaps five or six minutes

24 all together.

25 Q. And what happened next?

Page 6644

1 A. Then I came outside. And again, I went back to picking the

2 grapes. Then I saw my friend being beaten, and I saw blood coming out of

3 his mouth. And as he -- then he spat it out, and then one of them said --

4 this German -- he said, "Can I beat the person who is spitting on the

5 Croatian ground?" And then another soldier approached me who I asked --

6 he asked me whether I had sold him some appliance on Siroki Brijeg. And

7 then he kicked me with his boot in the mouth and kicked out my two teeth.

8 Q. Witness, you said --

9 A. And I said that I did, and then he stopped beating me.

10 Q. Witness, just to go back over this, a couple of questions. You

11 made a reference to a German. Can you explain that in a little more

12 detail, who are you referring to?

13 A. It was this soldier who was there. He was a German by origin, and

14 then he said whether he could kick the person who is spitting on the

15 Croatian blood [as interpreted], and I could understand him because I had

16 spent six months in Germany.

17 Q. So he was speaking German?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, then, can you tell us what happened then next, what happened

20 after you exited the shed and were with the others?

21 A. I talked about how I was being beaten, and then Tuta came out and

22 said, "That's enough. Stop, and take the young one and send him off with

23 the civilians." And then they loaded us up in a vehicle and sent to

24 Ljubuski.

25 Q. Now, after you left Sovici and went to Ljubuski, did you ever see

Page 6645

1 this person Tuta again?

2 A. Yes. Once he came in Mostar, in front of the prison. He opened

3 the door to the -- I only saw him outside when he was standing there in

4 the -- and apparently, he also just opened the door to the room where we

5 were, peeked inside, and then left.

6 Q. Can you tell us the name of this prison that you're referring to

7 in Mostar?

8 A. The Heliodrom.

9 Q. Witness, can you describe Tuta for us as best as you can recall

10 from the times you saw him in Sovici, and then again at the Heliodrom?

11 A. At that time, he had a bit longer hair in the back, and he was

12 parting it in the middle. He also had a beard. He had glasses,

13 roundish.

14 Q. Can you recall the colour of his hair or the colour of his beard?

15 A. A greying, not completely grey, but greying. It was more white

16 than not.

17 Q. Okay. Now, Witness, let me ask you about some events that

18 occurred when you were at the facility in Ljubuski.

19 First of all, while you were in Ljubuski, did you ever receive any

20 information about events that occurred in Sovici Doljani after you were

21 removed from Doljani?

22 A. Yes. I think the next day or two days later, somebody came and

23 took down the names when we were going into the van. And he said that we

24 could have been killed because Cikota, Tuta's deputy, had been killed

25 around that time.

Page 6646

1 Q. Now, at the Ljubuski -- just tell us about this place where you

2 and the others were put in Ljubuski. Can you describe the conditions

3 there and how long you stayed there?

4 A. We arrived in Ljubuski, I guess it was the central prison there

5 before. I think that is what it was called. And we entered there in a

6 room which measured two by something, I don't know, maybe six metres, and

7 we called it number 6. We were between 20 and 25 in there.

8 Q. Do you recall how long you remained at the prison in Ljubuski?

9 A. I stayed in Ljubuski about 40 days. And then we were told that we

10 would be exchanged, and took our name -- took down our names but then they

11 sent us to Mostar instead.

12 Q. Were there prisoners at Ljubuski who had come from other

13 locations?

14 A. Yes. These men were not in our room, but there were some from

15 Prozor and some men from Mostar, and there were also two men from Ljubuski

16 in other rooms.

17 Q. And can you tell us how the prisoners were treated generally by

18 the guards at the Ljubuski prison?

19 A. In Ljubuski while I was there, it wasn't -- nothing much

20 happened. This Petrovic was the worst. He beat some people, not me, but

21 nobody touched us. We went to work and they behaved correctly towards

22 us.

23 Q. How were the men from Mostar treated, if you know?

24 A. The men from Mostar were in another room, and I saw this Petrovic

25 on one occasion, he was beating a man who they said was a pilot, he was

Page 6647












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Page 6648

1 captured in Vranica and he was beating him with a shovel and he was

2 forcing him to say that he was a Croat, and he said that he was a Croat of

3 Catholic faith, and I saw him beating him, as this Petrovic was beating

4 him.

5 Q. Do you know if there were other prisoners at Ljubuski who had come

6 from Vranica in Mostar?

7 A. There were -- they said that some had been captured when we were

8 working, that some men from Tuta's unit came and took them away in a bus.

9 Q. Now, during the 40 days that you spent at Ljubuski, were you taken

10 out of Ljubuski, the prison, to perform labour during the day?

11 A. Yes. We went to work almost every day at the front lines facing

12 the Serbs. We were digging, and I was filling sandbags, and this was

13 towards Trebinje, towards Neum.

14 Q. And what were the conditions there for you and the others on the

15 front line?

16 A. One had to work all day, and when the Serbs were shooting, we

17 would take cover a little bit, but you had to work regardless of whether

18 there was shooting going on or not.

19 Q. Now, you say that after you spent 40 days at the prison in

20 Ljubuski, then what's the next place that you were taken to?

21 A. They took us to Mostar, to the Heliodrom.

22 Q. And how long, then, did you remain at the Heliodrom?

23 A. At the Heliodrom, I stayed until the 1st of March, 1994.

24 Q. Were you permitted to take your belongings with you from Ljubuski

25 to the Heliodrom?

Page 6649

1 A. Yes. They allowed us to take the belongings that we had. We

2 did. But when we arrived in Mostar, they took them away from us at that

3 time.

4 Q. And what sort of belongings are we talking about? What sorts of

5 things were taken away?

6 A. We had some clothing, which we got, I guess people from the Red

7 Cross, and the money, watches, they took all of that away from us at the

8 Heliodrom.

9 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to ask the Registrar who is with you there

10 to show you another photograph that's been marked Exhibit 20.10. And my

11 question is whether you're able to recognise anything that's shown in this

12 photograph.

13 A. As far as I can see, we were locked up here, except now there is a

14 parking lot here. That wasn't there before. There was just a clearing

15 there when they would take us out for fresh air.

16 Q. Could I ask you to take that photograph with the pen and to place

17 a circle around the building that you've just mentioned, the place where

18 you believe you were held.

19 A. [Marks]

20 MR. STRINGER: Okay. For the record, Mr. President, the witness

21 has placed a number 1 on the yellow building that's shown on the

22 photograph.

23 Q. Witness, can you describe for us generally the conditions that you

24 and the others were held in, the conditions there that existed in this

25 building during the months that you were held there? I'm talking about

Page 6650

1 space, sleeping room, food, toilet facilities.

2 A. When we arrived at the Heliodrom, at first we weren't that many,

3 and we had some military cots there. But some other men were brought in,

4 and then all that was taken out, and we were given two blankets each. I

5 was in the room where we were over 100. And we had -- we were receiving

6 food in the morning, and we had an evening meal. We would get tea and a

7 slice of bread. On one occasion, I had to slice a loaf, and I had to

8 slice it -- and I had to divide it into 11 pieces. And that is what we

9 were getting.

10 Q. Is that generally the amount of food that you would receive during

11 a meal?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What about the sleeping arrangements? You said the cots were

14 removed, so where did you sleep?

15 A. I slept on the floor. I had a blanket underneath, and we were in

16 three rows. I think it was -- the room measured 6 by 10 metres, and I

17 believe that we were over 100. And then we had a person who was in charge

18 of the room, and he had to give the count of the people in the room to the

19 policeman on duty.

20 Q. Did you receive any beatings while you were being held at the

21 Heliodrom?

22 A. Yes. They beat us. I personally was beaten about ten times, and

23 also at the front line.

24 Q. Could you describe for us just in general terms the type of

25 beatings that you received while you were in the Heliodrom complex?

Page 6651

1 A. I can give you an example. Once I was beaten with truncheons, and

2 I was being kicked and a commander placed a pistol in his mouth and cocked

3 it.

4 Q. He placed a pistol in whose mouth?

5 A. My mouth.

6 Q. Now, just a moment ago, you mentioned that you were also beaten at

7 the front line. Did you go out from the Heliodrom at various --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- times? Did you go out from the Heliodrom, you and others, to

10 work at various front-line positions?

11 A. Yes, we went to Grude -- we went to Santiceva Street, Bulevar, and

12 then towards the airport towards Dracevice, and then we went up to

13 Breznice also.

14 Q. How often during the months that you were at the Heliodrom were

15 you taken out to perform labour at these various locations?

16 A. People went every day. I went several times. I was beaten

17 several times, and then they would spare me a little bit.

18 Q. Now, when you were taken out for forced labour, do you know what

19 people or what units you were working for?

20 A. I knew some, and I didn't know some others. But where we worked

21 towards Dracevice, there were the 7th and the 9th battalion there. And

22 there was an elementary school, the 3rd or the 4th. And we were told that

23 these were Stela's men. That's where we were working. I did not know

24 them.

25 Q. Did you ever meet a person known to you as Stela?

Page 6652

1 A. No, I did not.

2 Q. You mentioned the Bulevar. What sorts of work, what tasks did you

3 perform at the Bulevar?

4 A. There we had to carry sandbags, make screens, dig trenches, things

5 like that.

6 Q. And how were the conditions at the Bulevar when you worked there?

7 A. Well, none. You work, keep silent. They give you a little bit of

8 bread to eat. And then a soldier comes up, ill treats you.

9 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask the registrar to show you a photograph

10 that has been marked Exhibit 14.3. I'm going to ask you to look at that

11 and tell us if you recognise any of the places shown on this photograph.

12 Okay, Witness, let me ask you a couple questions before you make

13 any more marks on the photograph. First, could we put the photograph on

14 the projector, please, so that those of us here in The Hague can see it.

15 Is it possible to see the -- okay.

16 Witness, let me first ask you about this photograph. Do you

17 recognise any of the locations where you worked as shown on this

18 photograph?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Yes, I think that's what I would like you to do is, first, without

21 making any marks, just use the pen and to point to the areas that you

22 worked in.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. Okay. Now, Witness, here in The Hague, we're not able to see the

25 mark that you placed. Can you point to the place where you made the mark

Page 6653

1 just a moment ago.

2 A. [Indicates]

3 Q. Witness, you're pointing to a place right now. Let me ask you to

4 put the letter A in that place, if you would do that, please?

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Thank you. Now, can you tell us what was your task, what was your

7 job, when you were working in that place?

8 A. We had to carry those sandbags, to protect windows and things like

9 that.

10 Q. Now, when you were working in that --

11 A. And to dig trenches.

12 Q. When you were working in that location, do you know who or what

13 unit you were working for?

14 A. Not then. Later on, some pals of mine told me that he saw Stela

15 there and that his men were there.

16 Q. Did you work on any other occasions in this area that's shown on

17 the photograph?

18 A. I was there only once or twice, I can't remember exactly. Twice,

19 I think.

20 Q. Thank you, witness.

21 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I have no further questions.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We will resume at 5.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 4.32 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 5.02 p.m.

25 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination? Mr. Krsnik, please.

Page 6654

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

4 A. Good afternoon.

5 Q. Let me introduce myself. I represent the accused here, Mr. Mladen

6 Naletilic. And let me give you a couple of pieces of advice and a

7 request. Since we speak the same language, will you please listen to me

8 until I'm done asking my question and then answer? This is for the sake

9 of the interpreters, to make their job easier. Second, I'm going to frame

10 my question in such a way as to get the most specific and shortest answers

11 possible. Did you understand my request?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you very much. So let's start. Let me first show you the

14 photograph which has been shown to you a little while ago by my learned

15 colleague, my learned friend. This is Exhibit 8.8, and we will try to

16 work with it in order to clarify some points.

17 Witness, my first question to you is: In this photograph, can you

18 see the location where you were taken prisoner? In other words, from

19 which direction did you get there to the shed which you described? If you

20 can see it, can you please show it to us?

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. What you're showing now, you were captured there?

23 A. No. I was brought there, I was led that way, but where I was

24 taken prisoner is not in the picture, cannot be seen.

25 Q. And can you see the direction from which you came? That is was it

Page 6655












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6656

1 to the left, from the right, from down, from closer or far?

2 A. All the way out there.

3 Q. Can we say that it was at the foot of the mountain that we see in

4 the background?

5 A. But on the other side, but it's at the same level as the mountain

6 is.

7 Q. Were you at the top of the mountain or had you come down the

8 mountain?

9 A. No. I was never up there where you were. No, we were down in

10 a -- on the lower ground, in the bed of a creek.

11 Q. Witness, are you talking to someone? Let us try to find another

12 picture from which we can see better what we are looking for. While we

13 are looking at it, what time was it when you were captured?

14 A. About 3.30, somewhere around there.

15 Q. 3.30 in the afternoon?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And what time was it when you were brought to the shed?

18 A. We were brought perhaps 15, 20 minutes later, right away.

19 Q. 15 to 20 minutes. Were you all armed?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Witness, I'm going to place another photograph here. I think you

22 will see it. And perhaps you can show it on this picture, provided you

23 can see it.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] If I can ask the -- it's 8.2 for the

25 registrar, please.

Page 6657

1 Q. Can you see the picture?

2 A. I don't.

3 MR. REGISTRAR: Where we are, we have Exhibit 8.3. In other

4 words, you need to place your exhibit in the -- on the ELMO in The Hague.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Dubuisson, we did place it on the


7 MR. REGISTRAR: Now we can see it, thank you.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, can you see it now? Approximately, the approximately the

10 direction in which you were walking?

11 A. We were moving from -- on the other side of the forest.

12 Q. What other side?

13 A. From the side of the Gradacac.

14 Q. Unfortunately, I'm unable to follow you. Do you see the road

15 bisecting the picture?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. Let's take that direction of the road. Did you move along that

18 road?

19 A. No, not at all. We were not on that side at all. We were on the

20 other side, on the side of Prozor.

21 Q. You mean on the other side of the hill?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So you were on the other side of the hill?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You mean you were already in the Prozor municipality?

Page 6658

1 A. Well, where I was taken prisoner, that could have already been

2 part of the Jablanica municipality.

3 Q. So tell me, please, were you captured on the other side of the

4 hill, or did you go down towards Doljani?

5 A. We went down to the lower ground near Doljani in the direction --

6 it was down there.

7 Q. And why did you not continue towards Jablanica?

8 A. We were waiting for the nightfall, because we wanted to move

9 during the night.

10 Q. I don't understand. Why did you not continue in the direction of

11 Jablanica where you were, I mean on the other side of the hill?

12 A. Because we did not know the terrain there.

13 Q. And you said that you were all armed?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. This entire group, 9 or 11 of you, however many you said you were?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And did you offer any resistance while withdrawing?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And did you offer any resistance when these soldiers -- when these

20 HVO soldiers approached?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Weren't you more than they were?

23 A. They may have been, but we were in lower ground, and one of our

24 comrade was wounded right away.

25 Q. You mean they immediately opened fire on you?

Page 6659

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Tell me: Do you remember the statement you gave to the

3 investigators in The Hague in 1997?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you recall that you did not offer resistance because some among

6 you were asleep?

7 A. Yes, some were asleep. And we did not offer resistance, and we

8 did not have time. And this comrade was immediately wounded.

9 Q. Listen: You were 11; you said that 7 HVO soldiers took you

10 prisoner. Were you all armed?

11 A. We were 11. 2 went away, and then they never came back. And we

12 were 9 now.

13 Q. So shooting started, and you did not offer resistance because some

14 people were asleep while the shooting was going on?

15 A. Yes, this happened when those two were already some distance away

16 from us.

17 Q. Very well. The HVO that took you prisoner were from Doljani?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was it the Mijat Tomic battalion?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the command, was that the Mijat Tomic battalion command post?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Very well. I believe that the Trial Chamber has gained a picture

24 how you reached that headquarters, that command post.

25 Now, tell me, were there ABiH troops on the high ground in the

Page 6660

1 direction of Jablanica?

2 A. At the time when we were captured?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. I don't know. I don't believe so.

5 Q. Where did the Jablanica Brigade positions start?

6 A. I was not at Jablanica at the time. I don't know.

7 Q. At that time you were not in Jablanica?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you not sleep at your uncle's and come to Sovici?

10 A. Yes. But at that time, there was no war. There was no shooting,

11 and I was not a member of that battalion to know where they were going to

12 the front line.

13 Q. You were a member of the ABiH; is that not so?

14 A. Yes, I guess that is what they called it. It was the Territorial

15 Defence first, and then it was renamed into army of Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina.

17 Q. Were you not part of a brigade, this unit from your village?

18 A. Yes. There was -- the brigade headquarters was at Neretva. We

19 were only the 4th Battalion, and there were another three battalions.

20 Q. And as part of this brigade, did you not have communication with

21 them?

22 A. That was not my job. I was a regular soldier.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you,

24 Mr. Dubuisson, to go back to the picture -- I think it was 8. -- could be

25 8.8.

Page 6661

1 The picture we showed before this picture, that is, of the picture

2 where the headquarters is shown.

3 No, Mr. Dubuisson, 8.8. The one we had just before the last one.

4 Yes, thank you.

5 Q. Witness, the soldiers who took you prisoner led you and brought

6 you where?

7 A. First they stopped at another point, and then they brought us to

8 the Mijat Tomic headquarters at the fish pond.

9 Q. Who was that who brought you there?

10 A. These were the soldiers from that -- from Doljani with some other

11 unknown soldiers.

12 Q. Can you show me now where exactly you were brought?

13 A. They brought us right here. This is where we stopped.

14 Q. And where did you see the man whom you called "Tuta" for the first

15 time?

16 A. Here where the number "1" is.

17 Q. How many men were there with him?

18 A. I know that there were three or four there with him.

19 Q. And you said to the Prosecutor that there were altogether about

20 20?

21 A. As far as I could count. We couldn't even raise our heads there,

22 so I couldn't see.

23 Q. Now, tell me where that big man was whom you mentioned?

24 A. He was there with Tuta.

25 Q. And this big man, did he have a beard.

Page 6662

1 A. No, at that time he did not have a beard.

2 Q. Now, tell me, do you remember how many statements you've given

3 until today's evidence?

4 A. I don't.

5 Q. Do you remember giving a statement to the security service in

6 Jablanica in 1995?

7 A. I have given statements, I don't know to whom, but I think I also

8 gave one in Jablanica.

9 Q. The statement that you gave in 1997, where did you give that

10 statement to the investigators from The Hague?

11 A. In Sarajevo.

12 Q. In Sarajevo. And did they show you some pictures there, in

13 Sarajevo?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. You don't remember?

16 A. I don't.

17 Q. And do you remember when you last spoke with the representatives

18 of the OTP?

19 A. I remember.

20 Q. When was that?

21 A. In January of this year.

22 Q. At that time, in January of this year, did you sign a statement

23 under oath?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In that statement, you said that everything that you had stated in

Page 6663












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Page 6664

1 those previous two statements to the security service and the one you gave

2 in Sarajevo are completely and absolutely truth. You remember having

3 sworn to that?

4 A. Yes. I remember reading the one that I gave in 1997, but I don't

5 remember reading the one in 1995.

6 Q. Then why did you not say at that time, that is in January, that

7 was in January of 2001, that means less than about ten months ago, why did

8 you not say then that this big man was Andabak?

9 A. I don't know. It did not cross my mind.

10 Q. Do you know that in no statement you mention his name, ever, and

11 you testified under oath?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And when did it cross your mind that this could have been Andabak?

14 A. It crossed my mind when I saw him first in the newspapers, and

15 this -- it was only recently.

16 Q. Recently? When was this recently?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 Q. And did you talk recently with somebody from the OTP?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And when was this, the last time?

21 A. I don't know. It could be a month or 20 days ago. I don't know.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can we go into the private session

23 for one question, please?

24 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session, please.

25 [Private session]

Page 6665













13 Page 6665 redacted private session













Page 6666

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Can you tell me, in which newspaper did you see the man whom you

9 recognised as Andabak and where and when was this?

10 A. It was while I was in Bosnia but I also buy newspapers like Globus

11 and Oslobodenje here as well.

12 Q. And in which year did you see his picture in Oslobodenje? I'm not

13 going to ask you the months.

14 A. Here, you mean?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. I think it was in 1999 or 2000.

17 Q. You don't know the month, even approximately?

18 A. How can I?

19 Q. What about Globus?

20 A. The same.

21 Q. You saw it there?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And this was in 2000?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And when you gave the statement, no one ever showed you his

Page 6667

1 pictures?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Not The Hague investigators, neither the security services?

4 A. No.

5 Q. How about Tuta's pictures?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Again, no one ever showed you pictures that I just mentioned?

8 A. No.

9 Q. I think you still have that picture in front of you. Where were

10 you when Tuta allegedly hit you, and why would he hit you? Why did he hit

11 you?

12 A. You mean the first time?

13 Q. Yes. Here.

14 A. You mean where --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please be advised not to

16 interrupt the witness and wait and pause between questions and answers.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You mean that is a Motorola or what?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where did he hit you?

21 A. In the face, on the cheek, the head.

22 Q. Which part of the head?

23 MR. KRSNIK: [No interpretation]

24 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

Page 6668

1 MR. STRINGER: I missed the last couple of lines of translation, I

2 believe, and I'm not seeing it either on the television --

3 THE INTERPRETER: We had asked for the counsel to be advised to

4 please mind the breaks between questions and answers. They are running

5 into each other, and it is impossible to do.

6 JUDGE LIU: The interpreter asked us to advise you not to

7 interrupt the witness and wait and pause between question and answers. We

8 missed certain parts of the answer from this witness. I know it's a late

9 hour, but you have plenty time. I can guarantee you about that.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. You are

11 very kind.

12 Q. You see, Witness TT, unfortunately we have to go back for these

13 past two or three questions because they are not in the record. So I will

14 do it slowly, and you do it slowly please, too. All right? All right.

15 I heard your answer but the interpreters did not. Which part of

16 the head were you struck?

17 A. He hit me on the cheek, part of my cheek.

18 Q. Which cheek, right or left?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. It's when you were standing, is it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And then what happened?

23 A. Well, I fell then, and then we were all ordered to lie down.

24 Q. Mm-hmm. I see. You fell.

25 Just a moment, Witness.

Page 6669

1 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, I think we missed an answer from the

2 witness. Your question is that where were you when Tuta allegedly hit

3 you, and why would he hit you? Why did he hit you? We missed the answer

4 to this question. You may ask this question again.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honours. I

6 think we have already learned where he was because he showed it on the

7 photograph, next to number 1 on the photograph. The witness answered

8 that, and I believe my learned friend can confirm it. But we did not hear

9 the answer as to why.

10 Q. Now, I will ask you again. Why did he hit you like that out of

11 the blue?

12 A. I don't know why. As soon as we arrived there, he started cursing

13 and hitting us. As I was the first one in the line, I was there.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Dubuisson, could you please give

15 the witness the statement that you gave, that you gave to The Hague

16 investigators in Sarajevo. I mean the statement of 1997.

17 Q. Witness, will you please turn to page 5, the last sentence. Have

18 you found that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I'll read it out to you, and you listen now to me. "We were

21 ordered to lie down on the ground in front of the building. And as we

22 were lying down, I heard someone say to Denis, 'Young boy, young man, come

23 with me.'" It is page 7 of the English version.

24 Now, please turn the next page. "And while we were lying down

25 with our faces to the ground, Tuta had a Motorola in his hand. And in one

Page 6670

1 moment, while I was kneeling, he hit me in the face with this Motorola."

2 Have you read it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Well, you see it's completely different from what you told us

5 today. Somebody else ordered you to lie down, and you were already lying

6 down. And in this statement, you say how you were kneeling. You told us

7 today a completely different story, how you arrived; and no sooner than

8 you arrived, then Tuta -- so tell me what is the truth? What you said in

9 the statement, or what you told us today? And please will you wait for me

10 to finish my question.

11 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer.

12 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I object to the, my view, as a

13 mischaracterisation of what the statement says. The statement, as read,

14 says, "We were ordered to lay down on the ground ..." and continues.

15 What counsel now has just said is that somebody else ordered you to lay

16 down. The statement does not say whether it was Tuta or someone else who

17 ordered them to lay down, and I would just ask that counsel be very

18 careful as to how he characterises the statement.

19 JUDGE LIU: Is there any problem with the translation?

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I ask my learned

21 friend to read this together. I cannot be responsible for this

22 translation, if my translation -- if this translation says what he did not

23 say. But in my version, in Croat, it says, They ordered or we were

24 ordered. That is plural. We were ordered, again, plural, to lie down on

25 the ground. So can the interpreters be given that so we can compare this

Page 6671












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Page 6672

1 because I do not see what is in dispute here. It says, plural, We were

2 ordered, or they ordered us to lie down. "They", two plurals.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

4 MR. STRINGER: The booth has -- I know that the B/C/S to English

5 booth -- I'm sorry, the English to B/C/S booth has both versions, and I

6 think it's irrelevant because I think that as it has been read by counsel,

7 I think that they are exactly identical; that is, "We were ordered to lay

8 down." And that's exactly how it came back to me from counsel's language

9 into my language. "We," plural, being the prisoners, "we were ordered" --

10 that's a passive impersonal use of the verb, "We were ordered to lay

11 down."

12 It continues: "I heard someone saying to Denis, young boy, come

13 with me." So my only point, Mr. President, is that rather than arguing

14 with the witness about what the statement does or does not say, I think

15 that the statement really should be read clearly and accurately, and that

16 suggestions should not be put to the witness which are inconsistent with

17 what is, indeed, in both languages versions of the statement.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I'm afraid we all heard the same way

19 as Mr. Stringer put it.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, will you please hear me

21 out? My words are distorted, and an attempt is made to distort what I

22 have in my version in the Croatian language, and it says very clearly, not

23 "that" but "those who are ordering." Not only "prisoners" are in the

24 plural. It says in the Croatian language, "And they ordered us to lie

25 down on the ground." So it is a number of people ordered "us" to lie

Page 6673

1 down. So I hope my learned friend will not be helping the witness out,

2 because the witness said today, "when I came -- when I fetched up in front

3 of the building, I was hit," but here in the statement, he says they were

4 already lying down on the ground because somebody else had ordered them to

5 lie down on the ground. Besides, we have both statements here and we can

6 compare them.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'll ask the registrar to ask the interpreters

8 to check the translations over the night. And the registrar will file a

9 report on the translations.

10 Would you please move on, Mr. Krsnik?

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I shall

12 immediately provide those statements. If Madam Registrar does not have

13 them, I have them here. So will you please help me with it?

14 Q. Now, tell me, were you lying down on the ground when Tuta hit you,

15 or did he hit you because you were the first one in this file, as you said

16 today, and when you approached him, and then you fell on the ground,

17 because you were struck? That is what you said.

18 A. I said as far as I can remember. It was a long time ago. Why

19 didn't you ask me the first year? At that time I knew everything, but I

20 said that as I came up, he hit me, and then he ordered me to lie down.

21 Now, I don't know how this happened.

22 Q. Witness, was your memory better in 1997 or today?

23 A. I don't know, sorry, I don't. All I know is that he hit me as I

24 was walking up to him.

25 Q. Now, I'm asking you, Witness, what is right?

Page 6674

1 A. What I said today.

2 Q. And this sentence in the statement, that is incorrect?

3 A. Well, this is also correct, except that I just don't know -- I

4 don't know exactly how I put it then. I don't know.

5 Q. Very well. All right. Now, let's move on, Witness TT. First,

6 tell me, please, what is the name of the man -- and please don't shuffle

7 those papers in front of the microphone because we are here getting very

8 bad noise indeed. Thank you. Will you tell us, what is the name of the

9 man who allegedly saved you?

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer?

11 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I'm not getting any bad noise, and

12 that's all I have to say.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, because you are listening to the

14 English channel, and I believe that Mr. Krsnik is on the B/C/S channel, I

15 think that's the difference. That's no point for interruption,

16 Mr. Stringer.

17 You may continue.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Q. Sir, I'm asking you for the full name of that person and a

20 description of the man who saved you from the alleged execution?

21 A. I do not know his full name. I have known the man for a long

22 time. We've always called him Janos, and I knew where he lived. We

23 socialised and would have drinks together on a number of occasions.

24 Q. Will you please repeat that name once again, and spell it?

25 A. Janos. We called him Janos, and I don't know his name, either his

Page 6675

1 first or his last name, J-a-n-o-c -- n-o-s, excuse me.

2 Q. Can you describe him for us?

3 A. Yes. He was a young man of about 30, 35, 36, sturdy, his hair was

4 shortly cut.

5 Q. And where he came from?

6 A. He was from Jablanica, from Gornji Kolonija. I know all that.

7 Q. And you've known him for a long time, is it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was he a commander of sorts?

10 A. Well, that I do not know.

11 Q. Tell me, please, who told you to pick the grapes?

12 A. Well, one -- Tuta told us to kneel down and then somebody else

13 came and said that we should reach upward and make as if we were picking

14 the grapes.

15 Q. But you do not know what the man looks like or who that was?

16 A. I don't remember.

17 Q. Tell me, did you ever see -- you mentioned today that name. Did

18 you ever see Cikota?

19 A. No. But when we arrived in Ljubuski, we saw him in the

20 newspapers, and I remember he was fair-haired and tall, had a scarf around

21 his neck, and that is the picture exactly that we saw in the newspapers

22 after we arrived in Ljubuski.

23 Q. I see.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] And now I should like to ask

25 Mr. Dubuisson to show the witness his statement that he gave to the

Page 6676

1 security service on the 29th of December, 1995.

2 Q. Will you please look at the first page, the first page where it

3 says "Statement," and now look at the one, two, three, four, sixth

4 passage? I will read it to you. "Two foreigners were with Tuta, and I

5 heard about them, that they were Germans. And a man nicknamed Cikota, who

6 was blond, stocky, had short hair, was about 25 years old, and also wore a

7 black scarf around his neck." Then why did you tell the security -- the

8 state security service that you saw him if, as you confirmed to us today,

9 you said that you never saw him?

10 A. Well, I saw him that day, but I didn't know that it was Cikota

11 until we saw him in the newspaper in Ljubuski after he was killed.

12 Q. Sir, let us read once again what you said. My question to you

13 was: Did you ever see the person whom you mentioned today? A minute ago

14 you told us that you hadn't.

15 A. I did see him that day.

16 Q. Witness TT, but you said that you saw him in the newspaper when

17 you arrived in Ljubuski, and here you state quite clearly, I mean in 1995,

18 that you had seen him and you described him.

19 A. Yes, yes. That was it, but I didn't know -- I didn't associate

20 the man with the name Cikota until we saw it in the newspaper at Ljubuski.

21 Q. And in 1995, you asserted this, and immediately said -- and

22 immediately told about that to the state security people.

23 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the counsel begins

24 to speak before the witness finishes his answer, and we who are listening

25 to the French are really overwhelmed by the speed.

Page 6677

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour. I shall

2 do my best not to do it again. I'm very sorry. And I'll turn to the

3 French channel to listen, to see when they finish so that I can then

4 proceed.

5 Q. What time was it -- what time was it when you were put in the van?

6 A. I don't remember exactly. I don't remember what time it was.

7 Q. But roughly.

8 A. Well, I do not know roughly.

9 Q. Was it at dusk?

10 A. Yes. Yes, it was dusk. Yes, it was getting dark. And at the

11 time when we crossed to Risovac, yes, the night had already fallen.

12 Q. Tell me, please, you are sure that it was the 24th?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You mentioned today that you had heard somebody tell you that

15 Cikota had been killed and that it happened at the time when you were

16 there. Had it happened at the time when you were there, that you would

17 have been executed?

18 A. That's right, because the men who took our names as we were

19 entering the van, our full names, and he said that had you stayed here an

20 hour longer, you would have been all killed because Cikota had got killed,

21 Tuta's deputy.

22 Q. Did you ever learn whether he was killed, when that happened, and

23 whether he was killed at all?

24 A. I don't know. That is what they said, and there was this obituary

25 in the newspaper saying that he had been killed.

Page 6678

1 Q. This man who took your names down who told you that, was he a

2 military policeman?

3 A. Yes, he was.

4 Q. An HVO military policeman?

5 A. Yes, he had that white belt in his trousers.

6 Q. And he was the one who took your names down and put you in the

7 van?

8 A. Yes, that's right. We entered the van, and then they drove us

9 away.

10 Q. And escorted by him -- or rather, escorted by the military police,

11 you went to Ljubuski?

12 A. Yes, but I did not see that man come with us.

13 Q. But it was military police no doubt?

14 A. No doubt.

15 Q. And all nine of you were put in this Volkswagen van?

16 A. No. Denis was taken to the school. He wasn't with us.

17 Q. As a matter of fact he was released, he was set free, wasn't he?

18 A. Not set free. He was sent to the school to join other civilians.

19 Q. That's your assumption. You do not know that, do you?

20 MR. STRINGER: I object, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

22 MR. STRINGER: Counsel invited that speculation by his last

23 question, and I think that he should not criticise the answer that he

24 received from the witness.

25 JUDGE LIU: I agree with you.

Page 6679












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Page 6680

1 Mr. Krsnik, skip this question.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, if a

3 witness goes in one direction, then how can we know where the other man

4 went? Why should it be speculation? It is the witness who is making

5 speculations, not me.

6 But whatever. I'll withdraw that question. Doesn't matter.

7 Q. Can you tell me --

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Excuse me, could we go into private

9 session, please.

10 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 6681

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [Open session]

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Where exactly in Ljubuski were you taken to?

9 A. To the central prison. That is what they call them. I don't

10 know. I mean, it's for those who know Ljubuski well.

11 Q. Do you have your statement of 1995? Page 2. You said you were

12 put in the police station in Ljubuski?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. Where there were many detainees, many other detainees.

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. Is that true?

17 A. Yes, sure, it is.

18 Q. Were you visited by a commissioner of the BH army?

19 A. Yes, they did, but I wasn't there at the time. I was working.

20 Q. Will you take that statement, look at it. One passage down. You

21 say here that you were present. "We were also visited by a joint

22 commission of the HVO and the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina".

23 A. Yes, I didn't say I was present there. When I returned, others

24 told me they had been there.

25 Q. Then you continue: "... who showed interest in our living

Page 6682

1 conditions, whether we were being beaten, and the detainees amongst us who

2 had been killed." Is that true?

3 A. It is true. I heard about that when I came back from work. I was

4 not there, and I did not say I was there when I was giving this

5 statement.

6 Q. Witness TT, please, truly, will you please wait for me to finish

7 my question. You see, I've switched to another language to enable

8 everybody, because the interpreters have difficulties to follow you. Will

9 you please wait. When I finish my question, then you can give us your

10 answer slowly. Thank you.

11 So you were not present when this commission arrived?

12 A. I was not.

13 Q. Do you know for sure that they were there?

14 A. That is what my fellow prisoners told me when I came back from

15 work.

16 Q. Were physicians part of that commission?

17 A. I don't know exactly, but I believe -- but I think that Alija

18 Zujo [phoen] was there.

19 JUDGE LIU: The witness says he was not present when the

20 commission came, so it seems that your next question is totally

21 irrelevant.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps you're right. I

23 don't know whether it is relevant, but it's interesting to hear that

24 Ljubuski was visited by the commission of the ABiH, and I believe that

25 there are records about it, and I'm glad that the witness mentioned it.

Page 6683

1 It was a mixed, joint commission, that had physicians, aid workers and all

2 kinds of things. I think it's not bad to hear that too.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, what the witness said is clear, "That was what

4 my fellow prisoners told me when I came back from work," and he was not

5 there, so how could he confirm whether there is a physician there or not?

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour. However, in

7 his statement, he said - that is in Croatian version, which can be

8 compared to the English version, obviously - he was there. This is why I

9 asked the question.

10 Q. Witness, tell me, what was your treatment in Ljubuski like?

11 A. I said that in Ljubuski we received food twice a day, we went to

12 perform labour, nobody touched us. Personally, myself, I myself was not

13 touched, and most other prisoners also.

14 Q. Did you see anyone being beaten in Ljubuski?

15 A. I did. I saw it, but I saw this one policeman who worked there

16 doing it.

17 Q. Will you be so kind as to take your statement from 1997? Please

18 turn to page 7. It would be the last paragraph. I will read slowly:

19 "During our stay in the prison, they were quite correct to us. That is

20 during our stay in central prison. As far as I could see, nobody was

21 beaten and everything was correct."

22 A. Yes, that is true. As far as we were concerned, nobody touched

23 us.

24 Q. Nor did you ever see that anyone was beaten?

25 A. Yes, I did see that somebody was beaten, when Petrovic beat one of

Page 6684

1 our -- one of our fellow prisoners, but it was somebody from Mostar.

2 These were not one of the men who were from our area. And also some from

3 Mostar.

4 Q. Why didn't you say so?

5 A. Well, nobody asked us. They asked me -- you asked me whether I

6 was -- we were beaten, and that means we who were brought there at that

7 time.

8 Q. Here, you state expressly, "They did not beat anyone."

9 A. From among those of us who had arrived in the first group, nobody

10 was beaten. But we could see when they were beating someone when we went

11 to get our meals.

12 Q. And the commander, was he also correct?

13 A. As far as I was concerned, he was, and I did not see him mistreat

14 anyone.

15 Q. That was also military police, right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the guards in Ljubuski also belonged to the military police,

18 right?

19 A. They had those white belts, so I'm sure they were.

20 Q. And at the Heliodrom, that was also the military police?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And when these work details were formed, who from the outside

23 would come, or to receive the humanitarian organisations and so on, who

24 was in charge?

25 A. Where?

Page 6685

1 Q. In the Heliodrom.

2 A. I don't know. There were guards there, and then Ante Smiljanic

3 was there. I think he was the man in charge. And then after a while,

4 there were people who were sort of the heads of the room, and they were

5 the ones who would decide who was going to go, and that went on for a

6 while.

7 Q. In your statement, on page 8, if you will turn over to page 8,

8 please, you say - that was the fourth from the bottom -- excuse me,

9 fifth. I'm sorry, you do not assert. You say, "I think that Ante

10 Smiljanic was the commander of the camp. He was a military police

11 officer, and he was the one whom everyone asked about things. So I assume

12 that he was the commander." Then you go on to say this: "When someone

13 would come from outside in order to perform work details, they would

14 always ask him. And the same went for the international organisations.

15 When they would come to the Heliodrom, they would always first contact

16 him." My question to you, sir, is do you assert this or is this your

17 assumption?

18 A. I saw that personally. I saw when he talked to them. And when we

19 worked, if we were to go to the same place -- if we needed to go back to

20 the same place, they would say we will talk to Ante before anyone else

21 takes you to go along with them, that you will come with us to that same

22 place.

23 Q. Who are you referring to?

24 A. I'm referring to Smiljanic.

25 Q. Now, tell me, are you sure that Tuta -- you personally saw him at

Page 6686

1 the Heliodrom?

2 A. Yes, in front of the building.

3 Q. You personally saw him?

4 A. Yes, through the window.

5 Q. And you saw him entering your building?

6 A. Yes. Actually, he was headed in the direction of the door. Then

7 I didn't see him any more.

8 Q. And in your building, were there any HVO soldiers who were serving

9 sentences?

10 A. Yes, at first there were some.

11 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you to please take your mind back to

12 Sovici. Will you please say what types of uniforms did the soldiers who

13 arrested you wear and in front of that shed?

14 A. There were both black and camouflage uniforms.

15 Q. Do you know who was wearing black uniforms?

16 A. I don't know exactly.

17 Q. Do you know to which unit did this soldier belong?

18 A. I could only know that by their patches on their sleeves.

19 Q. We said that you knew that this was the Mijat Tomic battalion?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And those in black uniforms, were they perhaps members of the HOS,

22 the HOS units?

23 A. I don't know. It is possible that they were wearing black

24 uniforms.

25 Q. And you said that you knew that the Convicts Battalion was there

Page 6687












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6688

1 because you saw their insignia?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Of this patch was on the chest?

4 A. No, on the sleeve. I saw it on the sleeve.

5 Q. Where, where?

6 A. Here, at around the shoulder.

7 Q. Did you see where I'm showing?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Excuse me, on the left or right?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Fine. How did that patch look?

12 A. It had Convicts Battalion written on it, and it had -- I don't

13 have a clear picture of it. I can't remember exactly.

14 Q. And when did you see that, when you were brought in front of the

15 shed, or at a time when you were captured, or when you were boarding the

16 van? Because you were either lying on the ground or you had your head

17 down.

18 A. Well, where I turned, I saw it.

19 Q. And you also noticed this other unit. What did you say its name

20 was?

21 A. Bruno Busic.

22 Q. And tell me, please, how did their patch look, do you remember

23 that?

24 A. I don't.

25 Q. Tell me, when you gave that interview in Sarajevo, did they ask

Page 6689

1 you questions?

2 A. I don't know exactly. Some, I think they did, but I don't recall

3 it any more.

4 Q. Did they show you various patches of various HVO units?

5 A. No.

6 Q. No unit was suggested to you, no name?

7 A. No.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can we go into the private session,

9 please, for one question.

10 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

11 Wait, wait.

12 [Private session]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 6690













13 Page 6690 redacted private session













Page 6691

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [Open session]

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Your unit in Sovici did not get support by anyone from Jablanica

11 or the surrounding areas? You did not get any supporting manpower?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So you who were there were there and nobody ever came to help you

14 or to replenish your ranks?

15 A. During the conflict, some men came from Visnjani, and I think

16 there were also two men from Doljani at one point.

17 Q. And from Jablanica?

18 A. No, no one.

19 Q. And how many managed to escape? You did not on that day, but on

20 the 17th, do you know?

21 A. I don't know how many escaped.

22 Q. Tell me, please, the man who you said got wounded, he also went

23 with you to Ljubuski?

24 A. Yes. We bandaged him, and then at Doljani someone re-bandaged him,

25 and then he came with us to Ljubuski. Some physicians bandaged him.

Page 6692

1 Q. And my last question: What year was it when you saw Tuta? Is it

2 possible that it was 1994?

3 A. Where? You mean in Doljani?

4 Q. No, at the Heliodrom.

5 A. No, I wouldn't know that exactly. I don't know.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] If I may just consult with my team to

7 see if I missed anything? Thank you, Witness, for your patience. I hope

8 that you have helped us all.

9 Your Honours, this was my last question. Thank you.

10 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric, do you have any cross-examination? Yes,

11 please.

12 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just one or two

13 questions. It will depend on how long it will take.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Seric:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Witness TT, today you said that you performed

16 labour with the 3rd or 4th elementary school at Sam Stela [phoen] in the

17 statement that you gave and which was shown and which you have in front

18 of, on the 26th of April, 1997, that is. If you turn to page 10, you will

19 see that in the second paragraph, you said this: "I heard from other

20 prisoners that other work details had worked for a man called Stela." And

21 then the paragraph after that, and that's the last sentence "I have never

22 heard anything special regarding labour for Stela."

23 Can you now interpret for me how come you stated what you stated?

24 A. At that time, I did not know that I had worked there. But my

25 fellow prisoners told me that Stela was in charge of there. I never saw

Page 6693












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6694

1 him so I didn't know.

2 Q. Let me take you back. You said this verbatim: "I heard from

3 other prisoners that other work details had worked for a man called

4 Stela." And then you added, "I have never heard anything special about

5 labour for Stela."

6 A. That is correct. I only worked once or twice there. I did not

7 know that Stela was there. I heard from others who were going there

8 later. I was among the first who went there. But there were others who

9 were there working for him nonstop.

10 Q. And if I told you that this Stela of whom you had never heard was

11 not a commander of that segment of the front line around that school, what

12 would you say?

13 A. I don't know. I just know what I was told who was there in charge

14 where I was working. But I don't know anything else about Stela.

15 Q. Thank you very much.

16 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

17 questions.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, it seems to me that we see the light at the end

19 of the tunnel. So here I have a proposal to put to all of you. Are we

20 going to continue for a little bit longer for the sitting, or we break for

21 the supper and resume at 8.00? Yes, Mr. Stringer.

22 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I have a maximum of two questions

23 for redirect.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So we'll sit a little bit

25 longer, but I was advised that the interpreters could not be with us more

Page 6695

1 than two hours.

2 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, what I have is one point that was

3 raised on the cross, which I think I can deal with swiftly, and I'll be

4 finished.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed.

6 MR. STRINGER: Thank you.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Stringer:

8 Q. Witness, during the cross-examination during the counsel for

9 Mr. Naletilic, you were taken to various parts of the witness statement

10 that you gave to the investigators of the OTP in April of 1997. And I

11 want to direct your attention to one part -- actually two parts of that

12 witness statement. And if you would take the version of that witness

13 statement, which is in B/C/S, I would like to direct your attention to one

14 part of it.

15 And I believe it may have been on page 7 of your version; the

16 sentence that reads as follows: "During our stay in central prison, they

17 were very correct to us. Nobody was beaten as far as I could see, and

18 everything was correct." Do you find that sentence in the B/C/S version

19 which you're looking at?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. First question. When you said "they were correct to us", who are

22 you referring to when you said "us"?

23 A. I'm referring to us, specifically our group which went to work. I

24 mean, mostly us from Sovici; that is, us, we who were captured in the very

25 beginning.

Page 6696

1 Q. Now, during the cross-examination, counsel told you that you did

2 not say anything about the beating you saw of Hasib Lulic who was from

3 Mostar. Do you remember him telling you that you said nothing about

4 that?

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I never once mentioned

7 any name, and especially the name of the gentleman mentioned by my learned

8 friend. So could this question be withdrawn. I did not go beyond those

9 two sentences, and there my cross-examination about Ljubuski and the

10 treatment in Ljubuski ended. Thank you.

11 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer, did you give the fair characterisation

12 of what counsel said?

13 MR. STRINGER: Yes, I believe I did, Mr. President. I prefer not

14 to withdraw the question. I think that counsel -- that this witness

15 testified about a beating he saw. He told the trial Chamber who was

16 beaten and where he was from, and counsel challenged the witness by

17 asserting that he did not describe that beating in his witness statement.

18 And I would like to now direct the witness to a different part of his

19 witness statement.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I will

22 say only one thing. What the learned friend is saying is simply not true,

23 and that is so. I read one sentence and asked if it was true, and the

24 witness answered very simply. I do not think that my memory fails me

25 because it happened some ten minutes ago. Thank you.

Page 6697

1 JUDGE CLARK: Can we clear it up? Was Mr. Lulic the pilot?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he was not. It was somebody

3 else from Mostar.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, did you find that paragraph? We

5 are waiting for you.

6 MR. STRINGER: Yes, the paragraph in the witness statement, I

7 have.

8 JUDGE LIU: No, no, no. I mean in the transcript.

9 THE REGISTRAR: If it's any assistance, Mr. Stringer, I think it's

10 around page 50.

11 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I'm looking at page 53 of the

12 transcript, line 7. The question is: "Nor did you ever see anyone that

13 was beaten?" The witness then describes a beating by someone named

14 Petrovic. Counsel says, "Why didn't you say so?" And that is the matter

15 I would like to follow up on by directing the witness to a different part

16 of his witness statement.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well --

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness explained

19 it all very nicely. When I asked him, he never mentioned a single name.

20 He simply said, later on, that he saw a guard called Petrovic beat

21 somebody. I think the transcript says it all very nicely. And I said

22 that, "This is not in your statement. You claimed that you never saw

23 anyone being beaten." And that is what the discussion was about, and not

24 who. So it's all very simple. I don't see why these things are being

25 complicated now, because we never mentioned any names. Let me complete

Page 6698

1 it. The discussion was about whether he did see or didn't see.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, I believe your question is further

3 away from the question put forward by Mr. Krsnik.

4 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I respectfully disagree. Counsel's

5 impeached this witness by referring to a selected portion of a witness

6 statement. He ignored a different section, passage, which is merely one

7 paragraph down in the statement, which in my view would rehabilitate the

8 witness on this particular point, which counsel expressly tried to impeach

9 his credibility on. Counsel's point was that this witness saw no

10 beatings, and the witness has tried to explain that, in fact, he did see a

11 beating. And I would now attempt to draw the witness's attention to a

12 different portion of the witness statement, very close to the one counsel

13 has relied on, selectively, in my view, in order to give this witness an

14 opportunity to demonstrate to the Trial Chamber that, in fact, as he said

15 to Mr. Krsnik, he did try to -- he did, in fact, describe the beating that

16 he saw. Counsel in the transcript says that, "You expressly "-- that he

17 expressly didn't say it, and, in fact, I'm trying to demonstrate that that

18 is not true.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, why don't you pose your question

20 another way by reading the paragraphs in the previous statement so that we

21 could have overall picture of that previous statement? Because we don't

22 have those statements at our hands.

23 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President. That was my intention.

24 So now I would ask the witness to look again at the statement. And from

25 the sentence which we just read together which begins with the words,

Page 6699

1 "During our stay," I would like the witness to move down, to skip the

2 next paragraph and move down to the paragraph which begins with the words,

3 "Also the guards."

4 Q. Let me ask you if this is what your statement says in that

5 paragraph: "Also the guards in the prison were from the military police.

6 I know that one of the guards were called Petrovic, who used to beat some

7 of the prisoners. I saw once that he was beating Hasib Lulic with his

8 fist in his face while we were on our way to our meal. He was hit twice

9 in the face." Now, Witness, was that the beating that you were referring

10 to during your cross-examination that you saw?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I have no further questions.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

14 Thank you, Witness, for coming to help us by giving your

15 evidence.

16 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

17 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender into

18 evidence? Mr. Stringer.

19 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, we tender Exhibit 8.8, as marked,

20 which is now Exhibit 8.8/2; Exhibit 20.10, as marked, which is now

21 20.10/2; and Exhibit 14.3, as marked, which is now 14.3/6. At this time,

22 also, we would tender the document which the witness referred to during

23 his direct marked as Exhibit 199.1 -- I'm sorry, 299.1.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections?

25 Mr. Krsnik.

Page 6700

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] As usual, we have no objections to

2 those exhibits on which -- when these exhibits are photographs marked by

3 witnesses. But Your Honours, to offer documents in such a way, I mean,

4 there were thousands of documents with the names -- with the name of Ivan

5 Andabak, other documents, newspaper articles. And again, we have another

6 document, once again, without seal, without anything. We do not know the

7 source, where, from, why, whence this document. So of course we object to

8 this document, 299.1. If need be, we shall do it in writing within eight

9 days; perhaps even sooner than that.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Those documents of the maps and

11 photographs marked by the witness are admitted into evidence.

12 As for the Document P299.1, we will await your written response in

13 seven days.

14 Mr. Seric? No. Thank you very much.

15 Are there any documents on the Defence counsel's side to be

16 admitted?

17 MR. KRSNIK: [In English] No, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So we'll resume our hearings

19 with the previous witness tomorrow morning at 9.30 a.m.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

21 6.41 p.m, to be reconvened on

22 Friday, the 30th day of November, 2001,

23 at 9.30 a.m.