Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6895

1 Tuesday, 4 December 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.38 p.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, madam registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. I can hear you very

11 well.

12 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration with the

13 paper that the usher is going to show you.

14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

15 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may sit down, please.

19 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, Mr. President, I have no sound, Your

20 Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Prosecutor, you may proceed.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very much. First of

23 all, protective measures. The witness has requested the following

24 protective measures: pseudonym and facial image distortion. The

25 motivation is traditional, reasons of security.

Page 6896

1 JUDGE LIU: I guess there is no objections. Thank you very much.

2 Your request is granted.

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much.

4 Examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

5 Q. Witness, your request for protective measures has been granted by

6 the Trial Chamber. Here in the courtroom, you will be called Witness VV.

7 Facial image distortion means that your face will not be seen on the

8 screen or the television.

9 Now, you will be given a sheet of paper and you will see your name

10 there. If everything is all right and the spelling of your name and first

11 name is okay, you may say "yes" without reading it aloud.

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, my questions, and I suggest the

14 witness responses, will go mostly to the following parts of the

15 indictment: background, paragraph 7; superior authority, paragraph 14;

16 general allegations, paragraphs 18 through 21; Count 1, paragraph 31, 34,

17 AB; Counts 2 through 5, paragraph 43; Counts 9 through 12, paragraphs 45,

18 50.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may proceed.


21 Q. Witness VV, you were born in Mostar municipality 1967; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In 1993, you lived in the east part of Mostar; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6897












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Page 6898

1 Q. And now you live in Mostar; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Witness VV, in April 1992, you were mobilised with ABiH army with

4 the 4th Corps; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And for some period of time, you were fighting against the

7 Serbs together with the HVO; am I right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber in which part of the front

10 against the Serbs did you fight?

11 A. At that time, the front line was in the area of Podvelezje and it

12 was split up between the ABiH and the HVO.

13 Q. What kind of relations existed between the Muslim and Croats then,

14 I mean, first of all, armija and HVO soldiers?

15 A. At first, that is in 1992, the relations as far as the regular

16 soldiers were concerned, quite all right. They jointly went together to

17 man the front lines facing the Serb aggressors and there were no problems

18 between the HVO and the army.

19 Q. And when did you realise that there was somebody happening

20 between the Croats and Muslims in the armed forces?

21 A. The first time that I noticed something as a soldier was when I

22 went to visit my family which was in Croatia. I got documents from the

23 4th Corps that I could go and visit them; however, on the way near Buna,

24 there was a Croatian checkpoint. They turned me back. They said that I

25 could not use these documents, that I had to go to the HVO headquarters

Page 6899

1 and get a paper from them in order to be able to clear the checkpoints.

2 That was in early 1993.

3 Q. Did you go to the HVO quarters to get those documents?

4 A. I did not go because that was very difficult to get into the

5 headquarters as a member of ABiH.

6 Q. Witness, I would ask you not to speak too fast because your

7 response will be translated simultaneously into French and B/C/S.

8 Could you recall the Trial Chamber the events that occurred in

9 Mostar in April 1993?

10 A. In April 1993, it was already clear, one could see that the

11 relations between the HVO and the army had become quite tense. The HVO

12 policemen at checkpoints stopped -- were stopping members of the ABiH and

13 provoked them frequently without any reason. They were turning them

14 back. They would not let them pass through to go to wherever their

15 destinations were, and then the sniping provocations started, first,

16 against the members of the ABiH and later against civilians, too. The

17 headquarters of the 2nd battalion of ABiH were in Hotel Mostar and they

18 requested -- they demanded that the headquarters be dislocated and their

19 conflict ensued between the 15th and the 20th April, 1993. The shooting

20 went on for one night, and the next day there was -- there were

21 negotiations between the ABiH commander and the HVO and it was agreed that

22 the 2nd Battalion would be dislocated and moved to the primary school at

23 Alekse Santica. And a relative cease-fire was then observed through early

24 May, however, there was still sniping incidents and provocations on the

25 part of the HVO and people were -- people started being taken from their

Page 6900

1 apartments in the west side of Mostar to the Heliodrome. In other words,

2 families of those men who were members of the ABiH were taken there, and

3 this went on until the 9th of May.

4 Q. And what happened on the 9th of May, Witness VV? I think the

5 Trial Chamber is well aware of the situation on the 9th of May in the

6 central Mostar. I would like you to recount the Trial Chamber what was

7 happening in the area where your unit was deployed.

8 A. On the 9th of May, early in the morning, the HVO carried out an

9 attack against the ABiH, that is, an attack was launched against the east

10 side of Mostar. They first attacked Vranica, where the 4th Corps had its

11 headquarters, and the Konak, where the two units belonging to the 3rd

12 battalion of the 4th Corps were deployed. That was a fierce attack, and

13 between 8.00 and 9.00, I heard an announcement that the white flags should

14 be hoisted and we should surrender and no one would be harmed. However,

15 we did not do this. As a response to these attacks, the ABiH ordered the

16 advance of its troops at Zalik, and during that day, it took Zalik and

17 then maintained it and kept it all through the rest of the war.

18 To the south of Mostar, that is the area of Dracevica and

19 Gnojnica, the ABiH also controlled the territory but where it had the

20 majority Muslim population which were in the HVO uniform but that, too,

21 then, fell to the army. This is what the army undertook as its steps in

22 -- on the 9th of May, Blagaj, Dracevica, Zalik.

23 Q. Where was your unit deployed because I don't see the name of that

24 location in the transcript? Kornik, or something like that? I don't see

25 it in the transcript

Page 6901

1 A. It was Konak, K-O-N-A-K. It's the old section of town. That is

2 where the former JNA command post was, that is, until 1992.

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Now, Your Honours, I would like the usher to show

4 the witness Exhibit 34.1, Prosecution Exhibit. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. Witness, I would like you to take a look at the map and, first of

6 all, indicate the centre of this area Mostar by encircling it and putting

7 number one.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Mostar. Now you may take a marker and circle Mostar and put a

10 number 1 on it.

11 Now, Zalik. Make a bigger ring, please, because it is not seen.

12 Number 2.

13 A. [Marks]

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would just

16 like to request, when my learned friend asked that the city of Mostar be

17 circled, then perhaps we should really do so, circle the city, because

18 what the gentleman had circled is, I don't know, a street or maybe the old

19 bridge or something.

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Central Mostar. We were talking about Central

21 Mostar and Zalik is a part of Mostar, just south of Mostar.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Perhaps we did not understand each

23 other, Your Honours. Everything that you can see there is Mostar and all

24 I asked was if we are going to talk about Mostar, then that is what we

25 should do because what has been circled really does not represent Mostar

Page 6902












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Page 6903

1 itself. That is all I wanted to say. Sorry.

2 MR. PORIOUVAEV: My learned friend is too fast. I just wanted to

3 ask now the witness what Zalik means in the relation to Mostar.

4 Q. Witness VV, is Zalik a part of Mostar?

5 A. Zalik is part of Mostar. It is adjacent to the old part of Mostar

6 and the Carina, the customs area, customs zone.

7 Q. So by number one, we mean the central Mostar and number 2, Zalik

8 as a part of Mostar adjacent to the old city.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: You would take -- put aside the map for a while.

10 Q. What happened in Mostar on the 30th of June, 1993?

11 A. On the 30th of June, 1993, the army was tasked to liberate Bijelo

12 Polje in order to link up with Sarajevo because the population was already

13 without food. There was hunger, people ate one meal a day and it was very

14 poor quality food. On the 30th of June, the army ordered its forces to

15 move on Bijelo Polje. So on the 30th of June, Bijelo Polje was liberated,

16 Rastani, and Sjeverni Logor.

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Now, usher, I would like the witness to be shown

18 Exhibit 11.18.

19 Q. Witness VV, I would like you to indicate the northern cap on this

20 map.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Okay, you may put the first letters of your alphabet, "SL."

23 Witness V, to the best of your recollection, which parts of Mostar were

24 under ABiH control after the 30th of June, 1993?

25 A. On the 30th of June, 1993, the army of the Republic of

Page 6904

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina had under its control Bijelo Polje along the Neretva

2 and next -- and at a curve near the convent, the HVO held on the left bank

3 of Neretva the Elementara, but then it went on next to the Carinski bridge

4 to the right on to Santicva. So down Santica Street, down to the

5 intersection where the department store used to be, down the Bulevar to

6 the Ivo Lola Ribar bridge, then again down the Neretva to the Vinerije, to

7 the winery, and then from there to the left from the airport towards

8 Blagaj.

9 Q. Could you indicate those points on the map, just show with the

10 pointer.

11 A. [Indicates]

12 Q. Please, I suggest that the Trial Chamber is waiting for your


14 A. So down the Neretva valley to Carinski bridge, then crossing

15 the Neretva to Alekse Santica Street, and then to the right and towards

16 the intersection where the department store was down the Bulevar, Bulevar

17 still, Bulevar all the way down to Ivo Lola Ribar bridge to Tekija, and

18 then following the Neretva once again.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Now you may put aside this map and just lay on

21 the ELMO map 34.10.

22 Q. Now, I would like the witness to just -- you mentioned Rastani as

23 a village that was regained on the 30th of June. Could you indicate it on

24 the map?

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 6905

1 Q. Now, please encircle it and put number 3.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. So by number 3, we understand Rastani. And Bijelo Polje, I would

4 like you to do the same with Bijelo Polje area, just encircle. It should

5 be a big ring because this area seem to be bigger. And you may put

6 number 4.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Now you may put aside map 34.10.

10 Q. Witness VV, and who was in control of Bijelo Polje area before the

11 30th of June?

12 A. Before the 30th of June, the HVO units held the Bijelo Polje

13 and -- but at that time, the HVO helped gather both Muslims and Croats

14 until the 30th of June. And on the 30th of June when the army joined in,

15 the Muslims joined the army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and as

16 of the 30th of June right up to this day, Bijelo Polje is under the

17 control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Q. And who was in command of the HVO unit deployed in Bijelo Polje

19 area?

20 A. The HVO units deployed in Bijelo Polje were commanded by Mr. Marko

21 Radic, called Maka.

22 Q. Did you personally know him?

23 A. I knew personally Mr. Marko Radic. On a number of occasions, we

24 were together and once I was even in the headquarters at Bijelo Polje,

25 that is, in his office. It was in 1992, at the time when the operation

Page 6906

1 against the Serb Montenegrin aggressor in the area of Podvelezje was under

2 preparation.

3 Q. Thank you. Witness, to the best of your knowledge, what kind of

4 forces did ABiH have in Rastani after the 30th of June?

5 A. After the 30th of June, the BH army had between 30 and 40 soldiers

6 in Rastani plus Rastani villagers, I mean Muslim Rastani villagers.

7 Q. And what about the Bijelo Polje? I mean the same question, what

8 kind of troops were deployed there, the number?

9 A. About 120 men of the army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

10 were in Bijelo Polje, plus the population which had moved over to the side

11 of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina after the 30th of June.

12 Q. Where was your unit deployed?

13 A. Our unit was deployed at Vrapcici and we met the line between the

14 hydropower plant and the area above the Djuro Salaj Factory before

15 Elementara.

16 Q. How far away is Vrapcici from Mostar?

17 A. About 7 or 8 kilometres, that is, up to the first houses in

18 Vrapcici. That is from the board which says, "You are now leaving Mostar"

19 to the first houses in Vrapcici, it's about 7 or 8 kilometres.

20 Q. Did you participate in any military operations in June/July 1993

21 in the area?

22 A. No, I did not participate in that operation because I was wounded

23 on the 1st of July by an HVO shell in the locality of Vrapcici and I was

24 transferred to the hospital at Carina, where I was receiving treatment

25 right up until the 15th of September. On the 15th of September, I

Page 6907

1 rejoined my unit.

2 Q. Witness, is it correct that on the 24th of August, the HVO

3 regained Rastani?

4 A. On the 24th of August, 1993, the HVO took over Rastani again, and

5 on that occasion, a number of civilians, that is Rastani villagers, were

6 killed but I do not know which HVO unit took part in that fighting and who

7 was their commander because at that time I was receiving treatment so that

8 I did not have that kind of information.

9 Q. Witness VV, it's also a fact well known that on the 20th of

10 September, ABiH tried to recapture Rastani. Did you participate in that

11 operation?

12 A. On the 20th of September, 1993, the BH army liberated Rastani, but

13 I was not taking part because I had not been reactivated fully yet, that

14 is, I was involved with logistics, I would supply food ammunitions, and so

15 on and so forth. So I did not participate in the operation on the 20th of

16 September in that fighting.

17 Q. But did you go to the battle area on the 20th of September?

18 A. On the 20th of September, 1993, when the BH army liberated

19 Rastani, I did not go to Rastani. I was in Vrapcici that day.

20 Q. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber how far away is Vrapcici

21 from Rastani?

22 A. There is -- the river Neretva flows between Vrapcici and Rastani

23 so they are very close.

24 Q. Did you go ever to Rastani?

25 A. The first time I went to Rastani was on the 22nd of September in

Page 6908

1 the morning, and I returned to Vrapcici in the evening, so on the evening

2 of the 22nd of September I was back in Vrapcici.

3 Q. But what was happening on the 22nd of September in Rastani?

4 A. On the 22nd of September, in the afternoon, the HVO attempted to

5 recapture Rastani, to put it again under its control. However, on the

6 22nd, they did not succeed in doing that. That is right up until the

7 23rd, Rastani remained under the BH army control.

8 Q. And do you know in which area of Rastani were ABiH soldiers

9 deployed?

10 A. The soldiers of the army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

11 were deployed from the fly-over on the way to Mostar following the upper

12 houses on the way to Raska Gora all the way up to the hydropower plant

13 Mostar 1.

14 Q. Did they have a sort of headquarters in Rastani?

15 A. There was no command in Rastani except that a low-ranking officer

16 who was commanding the troops in the field also commanded there, but the

17 command of that unit was in Vrapcici.

18 Q. Did they have communication, radio communication?

19 A. Yes, there was a radio communication between the headquarters and

20 the commander who was in Rastani.

21 Q. You just told the Trial Chamber that on the 22nd of September, you

22 were in Rastani. For what purposes did you go there? It was the 22nd of

23 September, I repeat.

24 A. On the 22nd of September, they sent me to get food and some

25 ammunition for the army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so that I

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Page 6910

1 crossed the Neretva in a boat in the early morning hours. That was in the

2 area of Sutina, in the area of Sutina, and since the HVO was controlling

3 it, that is, they had a good overview from Raska Gora, we had to do it

4 very early in the morning or in the evening if you wanted to cross the

5 Neretva to Rastani, or the other way around to Vrapcici.

6 Q. And where did you find BH soldiers in Rastani on the 22nd of

7 September?

8 A. A group of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was in the Silo and

9 another group was to the right towards the dam, that is, in the houses

10 where the army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina were having their

11 meals.

12 Q. Did you go to Rastani on the 23rd of September?

13 A. On the 23rd of September, around 10.00 in the morning, my

14 commander woke me up and told me that there was fighting in Rastani and

15 that ammunition had to be taken there to support the BH army, so that he

16 woke me and my colleague up. And we, with the commander, we went to the

17 headquarters. We took a crate of ammunition, some 1200 bullets, 7.62

18 millimetre, and split it in two halves, put it in our rucksacks and

19 through Vrapcici and Suhi Dol, down Sutina, crossed the river by boat and

20 on our way, he pointed to me in the direction of Dumpor's houses and told

21 me, "This is where our men are." So my task was to get there to Dumpor's

22 houses and take ammunition to our men down there.

23 Q. Thank you very much.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I would like just to go into private

25 session for some minutes.

Page 6911

1 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session, please.

2 [Private session]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [Open session]

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Now, Mr. Usher, I would like the witness to be

19 shown Exhibit P34.10. It's on the desk.

20 Q. Witness VV, what I will ask you now just to show the route you

21 took from Vrapcici to Rastani on the 23rd of September and just mark it

22 with a dotted line.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Could you show it because I'm sorry, I don't see it.

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 6912

1 Q. Could you put a thicker line, a little bit, because ...

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. And just put an arrow in the end of this line leading to Rastani.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. And put number 5.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Okay.

8 MR. PORIOUVAEV: You may put aside the exhibit for a moment.

9 Q. So Witness VV, you have just told us that your commander gave you

10 an assignment to get to Dumpor houses; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Had you ever been in that area before the 23rd of September, I

13 mean Dumpor house area?

14 A. No.

15 Q. But did you understand from his instructions where that area was

16 located in Rastani?

17 A. From his instruction, I gathered that these houses were to the

18 right from the elecktroprenos, from the electric transmission grid towards

19 Raska there and one could see those houses very well from Vrapcici where

20 we were quartered.

21 Q. At what time did you leave Rastani -- Vrapcici for Rastani?

22 A. Sometime between 10.00 and 11.00, thereabouts. I cannot confirm

23 it because we had no watches, and the shelling was very intensive.

24 Q. What did you observe in Rastani on reaching it?

25 A. In Rastani, we observed very thick smoke, and later on, I saw that

Page 6913












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Page 6914

1 it was houses burning and very intensive shelling, perhaps the most

2 intensive shelling in the Mostar area in 1993.

3 Q. How long did it take you to get to Rastani? I'm sorry, I mean to

4 the area of Dumpor houses.

5 A. About 3.00, that is, from Vrapcici to Rastani, we used the

6 damaged houses, those that had already burnt down, to find the cover from

7 the shelling, so that it was around 3.00 that we made it to Dumpor's

8 houses.

9 Q. And how did you move around Rastani?

10 A. In Rastani, we separated, that is, in a single file, 10 to 15

11 metres apart, to reach the house or a tree or something, take cover there,

12 wait for the other one to arrive, and then move on. And that is how we --

13 and when we arrived, when we got to Dumpor's houses, we hid in a cellar.

14 That house had burnt down a long time before that and that is where we

15 spent a certain period of time, in the cellar of that house.

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Usher, I would like you to show the witness

17 Exhibit P34.2.

18 Q. Please take a close look at this map, and perhaps you will find

19 Dumpor houses area in the map. If you can do that, please, show that area

20 to the Trial Chamber.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. Okay. Could you encircle this area and put letter D, which will

23 mean Dumpor.

24 A. [Indicates]

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Okay. Thank you. You may put this exhibit

Page 6915

1 aside.

2 Q. So Witness VV, did you find ABiH soldiers in Dumpor houses?

3 A. We did not find ABiH soldiers there because they had already

4 withdrawn from the Dumpor's houses to the right towards the power station,

5 power plant.

6 Q. But on your way from Vrapcici to Rastani, did you have any

7 communication with ABiH soldiers who were deployed in Rastani?

8 A. On our way from Vrapcici to Rastani, we had no communication

9 either with the soldiers who were at Rastani nor with our headquarters

10 which stayed at Vrapcici. So we had no radio communications nor any other

11 communication.

12 Q. Okay. Did you try to look for army of soldiers in Rastani?

13 A. I previously said that at Dumpor's houses we took cover in a

14 cellar, in a basement, because the shelling was very intense and we spent

15 there a short period of time, not very long. Then the shelling moved

16 away. We came out, and we went from Dumpor's houses to Punji houses -

17 there were only three there - up from Dumpor's houses, and as I got

18 there, I saw three or four civilians and behind them, 10 or 15 soldiers

19 who were -- had fanned out. At first I did not understand, I didn't

20 realise who these soldiers were but they started shouting at us to

21 surrender, and then we did.

22 Q. But what was your perception, what were those soldiers, civilians,

23 doing and HVO soldiers in the area, if you recall?

24 A. When they started shouting at us to surrender, I realised that

25 these soldiers had taken part in the fighting, but at first I did not

Page 6916

1 understand where the civilians came from, so that I was fairly confused

2 and at that point I did not know what unit this was until I was captured.

3 I did not know who the unit was until I was captured and then I recognised

4 Kolobara and Splico. At that point, Kolbara doused me with gasoline.

5 He -- and he started as if he was going to torch me, and in one hand, he

6 held a Motorola. Somebody called him on the Motorola. At that point,

7 he stepped back, talked to him, and then told his soldiers that the

8 prisoners had to be taken alive to Siroki Brijeg because the old man had

9 ordered so.

10 They had insignia. They were clear and I recognised them. I

11 could see clearly that they were the Convicts Battalion. I saw clearly

12 that they were the soldiers that belonged to the Convicts Battalion.

13 Q. Now, Witness, let's stop here, I would like to clarify some issues

14 now. You just told that you recognised some of the soldiers and named

15 Kolbara and Splico. Did you know those persons before?

16 A. Before that, Splico was with HOS, and he used to wear a black

17 uniform and when the HOS, the HOS was dissolved, he transferred to the

18 Convicts Battalion, but I personally never was associated with him, never

19 socialised but I did see him in town. He was about 185 centimetres tall,

20 quite thin, and he was always in the black uniform so he was easily

21 recognisable.

22 Q. But did you see him before?

23 A. I did see him before the HVO and the ABiH conflict but I never

24 socialised with him.

25 Q. When did you see him?

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Page 6918

1 A. In the period during 1992 when the ABiH and the HVO jointly

2 defended the area against the Serbian and Montenegrin aggressors. I may

3 have seen him two or three times, I don't recall exactly, but during that

4 year, I saw him two or three times.

5 Q. And now about Kolbara, how did you learn his name?

6 A. In November 1992, when an offensive against the Serb Montenegrin

7 aggressor at Podvelezje was being prepared, Mato Radic sent two soldiers

8 to the Konak to get me and another soldier. They came to the Konak to get

9 the two of us and we went over to the headquarters, and we sat down with

10 Mario, called Diko Skobic, and the two soldiers who had come to get us.

11 And through a conversation, we learned that the Convicts Battalion was

12 taking part in the operations against the Serb Montenegrin aggressors in

13 the area of Podvelezje, around Konak. And then I asked Diko, whom I knew

14 -- I knew a number of Croats from Vrapcici. I knew Sesar, Kolobara

15 Skobic and other Croats who lived in Vrapcici; we were close. I asked

16 Mario whether there was anyone in the Convicts Battalion whom I knew and

17 he said that Kolbara was one of them, and I asked him how he was and he

18 said the same -- the same, Kolbara, nicknamed "Droba." He said he's

19 always been. And Mario and Droba and I a number of times had drinks

20 together.

21 So at the moment when I was captured, I first saw Droba, and when

22 I looked closer, the other man was a better build than Droba, short hair,

23 but quite strong looking young man. So I had never seen him before but I

24 recognised him by those features. And when I was transferred to Ljubuski

25 later, when I was in the camp at Ljubuski, about ten days into my stay at

Page 6919

1 Ljubuski when we were going out for lunch, I saw Kolbara standing there.

2 Q. Okay. We will return to this topic later on. And do you know --

3 sorry?

4 JUDGE LIU: We have to make a break. We will resume at ten past

5 4.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

8 JUDGE LIU: Please continue, Mr. Prosecutor.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you.

10 Q. Witness, on behalf of interpreters, I would ask you not to speak

11 too fast, they cannot catch you. All right? And now, I would like to

12 clarify some issues from your previous testimony, I mean just a passage of

13 testimony. You mentioned a person whose full name was Radic. What was

14 his first name, because I see some inconsistencies in the transcript?

15 A. Marko Radic, nicknamed "Maka."

16 Q. Thank you. And let's return to this Droba. Did you know his

17 first name?

18 A. I don't know his first name. All his friends called him Drobo so

19 I never knew the name. We did have -- sit down around the table and drank

20 coffee or beer together, and I always knew him as Drobo.

21 Q. Did you know to which unit he belonged?

22 A. I don't know exactly which unit, but he was under Marko Radic's

23 command, so that was the unit from Bijelo Polje.

24 Q. And do you know the name of the second Kolobara whom you met in

25 Rastani?

Page 6920

1 A. When we were sitting at Marko Radic's, Mario Skobic told me that

2 Marinko Kolobara, who was the member of the Convicts Battalion.

3 Q. Could you describe him, just to the best of your recollection,

4 when you saw him first in 1993? I mean in Rastani.

5 A. Kolobara was shortish, 170 to 175, well-built, broad shouldered.

6 His hair was cut short and he was -- he had his -- he had fair hair, and

7 he was around 40.

8 Q. You've just told the Trial Chamber what Kolobara was doing in

9 respect to you and what was happening to your colleague at that time.

10 A. They cursed and they verbally abused both my colleague and me.

11 They kicked us with their boots, and they hit us with their rifle butts.

12 They also punched us.

13 Q. Did you see any other people in Rastani apart from HVO soldiers at

14 the moment when you were captured and shortly after that?

15 A. At the moment when I was captured, I saw three or four civilians

16 walking in front of these soldiers. I remember well one young man, he had

17 sneakers and jeans and a T-shirt. At dusk. When we were led out of

18 Rastani behind a silo, we saw civilians collecting the bodies of killed

19 soldiers and also collecting the wounded.

20 Q. And now I would like to direct you to this Motorola conversation.

21 You just told the Trial Chamber that Kolobara was talking about some old

22 man who had ordered to take people to Siroki Brijeg. Did you understand

23 what old man was meant?

24 A. At that point, I did not know to whom this word "old man,"

25 referred, but later on when I was locked up in the cellar, I learned from

Page 6921

1 these soldiers in reference to Mladen Naletilic, Tuta.

2 Q. Which cellar do you mean?

3 A. In Siroki Brijeg at the headquarters. In Mladen Naletilic's

4 headquarters, we were in the cellar.

5 Q. We will return to the subject a little bit later. How long did

6 you stay in Rastani on the 23rd of September?

7 A. We stayed in Rastani until the early evening, dusk. Then they

8 took us to Bakina Luka, that was in the city. And just before this

9 underground passage, we encountered these soldiers which had the HV

10 insignia. That was the shift which was going to take over the shift at

11 the confrontation line.

12 Q. How many soldiers did you see, I mean, with HV insignia?

13 A. It was early evening, but there were a lot of them, about 50.

14 They were walking in single file, one after another.

15 Q. How long did they keep you in Bakina Luka?

16 A. A van was waiting for us there. We did not stay there at Bakina

17 Luka. They loaded us in the van and took us to Siroki Brijeg right away.

18 Q. Had you ever been in Siroki Brijeg before the 23rd of September?

19 A. I was in Siroki Brijeg in 1990, but only passing through. In

20 other words, I did not stop there. So it is only now that I first got to

21 know the town.

22 Q. And where did they take you to in Siroki Brijeg?

23 A. When we entered Siroki Brijeg, we crossed the bridge and went to

24 the right about a hundred metres from the bridge. We got off there, and

25 they walked us into a building. I thought that that was either the Obnova

Page 6922

1 or the tobacco station.

2 Q. Could you describe that building to the best of your

3 recollection?

4 A. I cannot describe it because it was already dark, and straight

5 from the van they took us to the office, where they continued to abuse and

6 beat us.

7 Q. Did you see your colleague at that moment?

8 A. He stayed back in the hallway, and I was led into the office, in

9 the office in that building, that is.

10 Q. In what condition was he?

11 A. We were already bloodied, and we had swellings. Our eyes were

12 already swollen and closing, getting shut from all the beatings that we

13 had received. So we were not in a good shape. And after awhile, they

14 took us back to the van and took us to the civilian prison in Siroki

15 Brijeg where they locked us up individually. I was locked up in one cell

16 and my colleague was locked up in another.

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Now, usher, I would like you to show Witness VV

18 Exhibit number 26.4.

19 Q. Witness VV, do you recognise the building depicted in this

20 picture?

21 A. I recognise the building. This is the prison where we were

22 brought late that night.

23 Q. And what happened to you that night?

24 A. That night they locked us up, the soldiers who had brought us

25 there, and they left. After awhile, five or six soldiers entered my cell,

Page 6923

1 and they first started to insult and provoke me. Then one of the soldiers

2 threw a lighter down on the floor of the cell and told me to pick it up.

3 When I bent to pick it up, he hit me. He actually kicked me. And then

4 the rest of the soldiers started beating me, and I fell down. They

5 continued to beat me.

6 They continued to beat me until a policeman on duty entered and

7 said, "Leave the man alone. He's not going to survive." Then they left

8 and entered the cell where my colleague was and continued to beat and

9 mistreat him. I could hear moans coming from the other room. That went

10 on for about half an hour and then they left.

11 We spent the night there, and in the morning around 7.00 or 8.00,

12 soldiers again came in, four or five of them. They took us back to that

13 building where we had been the previous night, that is, the first building

14 where we were taken to when we came to Siroki Brijeg.

15 Q. Witness, just a moment. Just a moment. Do you know to which unit

16 the soldiers who were beating you in MUP station belonged?

17 A. Those soldiers belonged to the Convicts Battalion because they had

18 patches on the left sleeve, and it clearly displayed the Convicts

19 Battalion insignia.

20 Q. So they took you to -- to the previous building, and what happened

21 there?

22 A. They locked us up there in the basement. There was a tin

23 partition wall there. My colleague was placed behind that metal

24 partition, and I was placed in front of it, and then they left. After

25 awhile, a man walked in and told me, "Come with me." He took me to an

Page 6924












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6925

1 office, and I saw in the office, behind the desk, Mr. Mladen Naletilic,

2 Tuta.

3 Q. Witness, not too fast, please, not too fast. Just some minutes

4 ago in your testimony and now, you mentioned a person, Mladen Naletilic,

5 Tuta. Had you ever seen him before September 1993?

6 A. As far as Mr. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, is concerned, I first saw

7 him in 1992 in Posvelezje, in the area of Sipovac.

8 Q. Could you give us a little bit of details of that meeting with

9 Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, in 1992?

10 A. I personally did not meet with him, but I was in the unit, and he

11 arrived at Sipovac, where he visited with our commander at that time and

12 discussed the situation there because he was at Posvelezje.

13 Q. Did you know what position he occupied at that time?

14 A. At that time, he was the commander of the Convicts Battalion.

15 Q. Did you see him in that area?

16 A. I did see him in the area of Sipovac.

17 Q. Could you describe him, to the best of your recollection, how he

18 looked like at that time?

19 A. He was about 60 years old, long hair, eyeglasses with lenses, and

20 fairly grey.

21 Q. So was it the same person that you saw at the desk in September

22 1993?

23 A. Yes, that was the same person.

24 Q. Did he speak to you?

25 A. He did. He called a girl, ordered tea for me and coffee for

Page 6926

1 himself, and asked me, "Who harmed you? Who hurt you?" And I shrugged my

2 shoulders because I didn't know the name of the person, and I was too

3 afraid to speak out. And he said that nobody would harm me again, that I

4 was his prisoner. And after we finished, well, coffee and tea, he called

5 somebody by the name of Bosanac and that guy came and took me back to the

6 cellar, and that's the only time that I saw Tuta at Siroki.

7 Q. Did he ask you any other questions apart from your physical

8 condition?

9 A. All he asked me was about the whereabouts of our commanders, and I

10 answered, and that was the only thing that Mr. Tuta asked me about.

11 Q. Did you give response to his questions?

12 A. Yes, I did. I told him where they were.

13 Q. And did they beat you after this conversation with Tuta?

14 A. For the first 12 days, they would come in several times a day,

15 four or five soldiers, and beat me with their boots, and belts, fists, and

16 a soldier came in with a crutch and also beat me with a crutch and his

17 hands and his feet.

18 Q. You just mentioned that one of the soldiers was called or had his

19 name Bosanac. Did he beat you?

20 A. He beat me, and every time that those soldiers, four or five of

21 them came in, he was with them invariably and when he said, "Enough. No

22 more," they would stop.

23 Q. Do you know to which unit he belonged?

24 A. The Convicts Battalion, because we were in the headquarters of the

25 Convicts Battalion.

Page 6927

1 Q. And what was happening to your colleague?

2 A. My colleague sustained severe beating in the prison where we slept

3 so that in the morning, he could not walk, and one of the Croatian

4 soldiers ordered me to help him and I took him by his hand and -- into the

5 cellar and there he was locked. And he was left alone during those 12

6 days while we were there.

7 Q. Did anyone from HVO commanders visit you in Siroki Brijeg prison?

8 A. On the seventh day of imprisonment, it was visited by Mr. Marko

9 Radic, called Maka, and greeted me, told me not to worry, that I would be

10 exchanged.

11 Q. Did he interrogate you?

12 A. All he asked me was about two members of the HVO who had

13 beforehand, when Rastani was in the hands of the army of the Republic of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, tried to mine the hydropower plant, but they failed to

15 do that. But after that incident, all we heard was an explosion, and two

16 or three days later, downstream from the hydropower plant in the Neretva,

17 we found a body in the diving gear, in the diving suit, and I told

18 Mr. Marko Radic that we had found only one body and he said that there had

19 to be two of them.

20 But we found only one body, and it was to Mostar where it was

21 identified.

22 Q. Now, were you exchanged according to Marko Radic promise?

23 A. No, I was exchanged only on the 19th of March after the agreement

24 on cease-fire had been reached between the HVO and the army of Republic of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 6928

1 Q. Okay. And were there any other prisoners in Siroki Brijeg prison?

2 A. Personally, I did not see other prisoners, but on the 16th of

3 November when we were transferred from Siroki to Ljubuski, as we were

4 waiting for the busses to be taken to Ljubuski, one of the Croatian

5 soldiers said that other prisoners should be brought in to clean the

6 cellar where we had been kept, and that is how I realised that there were

7 more prisoners apart from us.

8 Q. What about the conditions of your detention in Tobacco Station?

9 A. The conditions were very poor. We received food every two or

10 three days, and that would be a quarter of a loaf of bread and a small

11 100-gram tin of pate, no water at all, so that we rinsed our mouths with

12 urine.

13 Q. Did they take you into the open air?

14 A. No, they did not take us into open air except the day when we were

15 transferred to Ljubuski, except that on the twelfth day, I was taken to

16 the office by Bosanac, a General, and another member of the Convicts

17 Battalion. They put me at a desk there and put wires from an induction

18 telephone, and they fixed them to my fingers and then turned the handle of

19 the telephone so as to pass the current from my fingers to my toes, and it

20 lasted between half an hour and an hour.

21 Q. Could you describe Bosanac?

22 A. Bosanac was between 175 and 180 centimetres tall, strongly built,

23 fair, short hair, not more than 25 years old.

24 Q. And could you describe the other person who was called or

25 nicknamed "General"?

Page 6929

1 A. The General was 180, 185 centimetres tall, black hair, thin,

2 somewhere between 25 and 30 years of age.

3 Q. Do you know to which unit he belonged?

4 A. The Convicts Battalion.

5 Q. How do you know that?

6 A. Well, every time they came, they talked, and I overheard from

7 their conversation between them that they called him a general, because

8 between them -- I mean, they used their nicknames addressing one another

9 so that I do not know any of their real names. But from those overheard

10 conversations, I know that the fair-haired one was Bosanac and that this

11 other one's nickname was "General" and that they were members of the

12 Convicts Battalion.

13 Q. Were you ever registered by the Red Cross when you were kept in

14 Siroki Brijeg detention facility?

15 A. No.

16 Q. So when were you transferred to Ljubuski?

17 A. On the 16th of November they took us out of the cellar. There

18 were about 10 or 15 soldiers who ill-treated us, who teased us, brought a

19 newspaper with the photograph of the destroyed old bridge and insulted

20 us. And then two cars arrived, one Golf and one Mercedes, and put me in

21 the boot of the Mercedes and my colleague was put in the boot of the Golf,

22 and that is how they transferred us to Ljubuski. I mean, we were both in

23 the boots of the two cars, in the trunks of the two cars.

24 Q. Were you registered by the Red Cross in Ljubuski?

25 A. In Ljubuski we were registered by the Red Cross on the 26th of

Page 6930

1 November. That was when they came there the first time. They took down

2 our particulars. And on the 29th of November, they brought us those Red

3 Cross cards.

4 Q. And what about the conditions of your detention in Ljubuski camp

5 before the registration by the Red Cross and after?

6 A. Before we were registered by the Red Cross, my colleague and I

7 were put in a cell without any blankets or sponge mattresses or anything.

8 I mean, we had to lie down on the bare floor. We had food every second

9 day until we were registered by the Red Cross.

10 Q. Did anything happen after the registration?

11 A. After the registration by the Red Cross, they put us together with

12 other prisoners who were there, and there were about 80 prisoners there,

13 members of the BH army, police, and political prisoners, that is, those

14 who were members of the party.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I would ask you just to go into

16 private session for some minutes now not to reveal the identity of some

17 people.

18 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 6931












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6932

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [Open session]


25 Q. And how did they treat prisoners there?

Page 6933

1 A. The prisoners, about eight of us, all went to work except myself,

2 my colleague, and a few of high-ranking political figures. All the others

3 went to work every day.

4 Q. Why didn't they take you to work?

5 A. I wouldn't know, but the first time, I was taken to work after the

6 truce was signed, that is, a few days before the exchange, and I went to

7 Caritas to load and unload goods.

8 Q. Were Muslim prisoners the only ones who were kept in Ljubuski

9 prison?

10 A. No. There were HVO prisoners too, but they were in another wing,

11 and their cells were open so that in daytime they could walk around the

12 compound, around the prison compound. One of them had the keys to our

13 cells, and he locked us up and opened it and on a number of occasions he

14 ill-treated me, beat me, and so on.

15 Q. Do you know his name?

16 A. Mile Kordic, nicknamed Tuta, nicknamed Pop.

17 Q. Do you know why he had such kind of nicknames?

18 A. Well, not exactly, but prisoners used to say that he was a member

19 of the Convicts Battalion, and they called him Pop because he -- which

20 means "priest," because he had allegedly killed a priest and that that was

21 why he was in detention.

22 Q. Witness, somewhere in the beginning of the examination-in-chief,

23 you just told me that you saw Kolobara again in Ljubuski prison. Could

24 you now recount the story?

25 A. Well, when we came out with other prisoners for breakfast for the

Page 6934

1 first time, or lunch, we -- the prisoners of Croat ethnicity were standing

2 in a circle at the place where we were eating and at that moment I

3 recognised Kolobara, but I held my head down. And he recognised us, too,

4 and approached and spilled our lunch, took us back to the cell and there

5 he ill-treated and beat us.

6 Q. Was it the same Kolobara that you had seen in Rastani in September

7 1993?

8 A. Yes, that same Kolobara.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Usher, now, I would like you to show Witness VV

10 Exhibit P677.

11 Madam Registrar, I suggest that we have enough copies of the

12 documents for the Judges.


14 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes -- sorry, but maybe they are in the binders.

15 Then I would ask the usher to place this document on the ELMO, the English

16 version first. Unfortunately, I cannot see it well. The image is very

17 blurred.

18 Q. Witness, do you have the B/C/S version of the document?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. I would like you to take a look at it and tell me if you see any

21 names which are familiar to you.

22 A. No. No. These names I do not know.

23 Q. I mean not only first name, but full names as well.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the question was quite

Page 6935

1 clear. The witness spent a long time studying the document and he said he

2 did not know the names of the witness. He has answered this question

3 after a very long and thorough study of the document.


5 Q. Witness, don't you see the names that are familiar to you? If you

6 don't, you don't.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness has already

8 answered and we didn't even object to this document. You see, we kept

9 silent all the time. I do not see what does this document have to do with

10 this witness, but I didn't want to ask my learned friend that because the

11 Chamber should hear and see as much as possible. I think it is very good

12 for the Defence. Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: I believe that the witness answered the question by

14 saying, "No, these names I do not know."


16 Q. Witness, you may put aside the document.

17 Now, Witness, I would like to ask you some questions about

18 Splico. Do you know his real name?

19 A. I don't, because everybody called him Splico and even in -- around

20 town, he was referred to as Splico, somebody in a black uniform, and that

21 was it.

22 Q. Do you know why he was nicknamed Splico?

23 A. Well, my guess is that he came from Split, and that that was why

24 he was called Splico.

25 Q. All right.

Page 6936

1 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Now, I would like usher to show Witness VV

2 document Exhibit 538.1.

3 Q. Witness, I would like you just to read the first line of the

4 document after the word "Izvor."

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said that he

7 did not know the name of the person nicknamed Splico. So may I ask what

8 is the purpose of showing this document to suggest that this was Splico

9 when the witness, a moment ago, said that he did not know the name of this

10 person named Splico, and Splico is only a nickname.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Prosecutor, would you please shed some light

12 on this issue?

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour. I think that I don't propose

14 anything unlawful or strange. We have a document in our domain where some

15 name, some nickname is mentioned, and perhaps we have some other

16 documents. Why can't we do some investigation here in the courtroom?

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know if the

18 purpose of our being here is to investigate. Again, I may be held for not

19 knowing enough about the common law practice, but it is very easy to state

20 that any person that is from Split could be named Splico. I am not going

21 to object to this document, and if the Prosecution does not tender it, the

22 Defence will tender it, but you cannot use this document to suggest to

23 this witness here that the person nicknamed Splico has this name because

24 he said that he did not know his name. So that is not fair.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, let us see what is the following questions that

Page 6937

1 the Prosecutor will ask. I don't think that his question was only about

2 the names, especially that nickname.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 MR. PORIOUVAEV: My question was just to read the first line of

5 this document.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honours, my apologies. I

7 wouldn't rise to object, but this is the system that we're following.

8 It's very clear that the first line contains the name of this person, and

9 despite my objection, my learned friend is exactly doing what I objected

10 to - and my apologies if I use this expression, but we are not children

11 here - after the witness had said that he did not know the name.

12 JUDGE LIU: We understand that the witness said clearly that he

13 only knows this man's nickname but not the real name. We understand

14 that. We just want to know what the questions that the Prosecutors will

15 follow. We can make our own judgement at a later stage according to the

16 cross-examination -- the direct examination and the cross-examination on

17 this very issue.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned friend asked

19 three times what is contained in the first line of, and this is why I

20 objected to it.

21 JUDGE LIU: But there is no answer from this witness. We would

22 like to hear what this witness is going to answer to this question.


24 Q. Witness, do you see the word "Splico" in this document?

25 A. I do.

Page 6938












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6939

1 Q. Please, maybe you can read the first lines of the document where

2 you see this name Splico.

3 A. "Vedran Bijuk, called Splico."

4 Q. Date of birth, please.

5 A. Born on 26 September 1957 in Split, Croatia -- Croat.

6 Q. Thank you. You may put aside this document for the moment.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours.


9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My apologies. I do not want to

10 belabour this, but was this the question and was this the answer?

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Prosecutor, I think you should ask this

12 witness whether he's sure that the nickname Splico, with his real name, is that

13 name on the document or not.

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV: The witness explained that he does not know his

15 real name, but I think that we have some documents that can shed some

16 light on the person whose name is Vedran Bijuk, nicknamed Splico.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, there may be many people who have got the

18 nickname Splico in that area.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour, it's quite possible, but why

20 I'm proposing all the things is because I've got some more documents at my

21 disposal that I hope would help you to make a decision.

22 JUDGE LIU: You may try that, but I'm not quite sure about the

23 results.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I'm in your hands, Your Honour. Thank you.

25 Now I would ask usher to show the Witness VV Exhibit number P614.

Page 6940

1 Q. Witness, I would like you to take a look at the second paragraph

2 of this document and read it closely.

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Could you place the document to the ELMO, I mean

4 an English version.

5 Q. Witness, have you read the document?

6 A. Not yet.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if this is the

9 investigation that is now being conducted by my learned friend, I can say

10 the least is that it is not fair. What does this document have to do with

11 this -- this witness have to do with this document? I don't understand.

12 What is the witness supposed to say here? What kind of evidence should he

13 give here?

14 JUDGE LIU: That's just what we want to know.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, why I propose this document because

16 this document, again, has one name mentioned in it which is linked to the

17 previous document. I mean the name is linked to the previous document.

18 That's why I asked the witness if he can see the name Vedran Bijuk in this

19 document.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness never

21 mentioned that first and last name. The witness never mentioned any first

22 and last names. He mentioned one nickname. If this is not suggestive --

23 he is tormenting the witness to tell him what he wants to hear. I ask

24 that he not be allowed to do that.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Prosecutor, it seems that we'll get nowhere

Page 6941

1 by reading those documents at this moment.

2 MR. PORIOUVAEV: At this moment maybe we are nowhere, but finally

3 we'll come to some point, I suggest, if you allow me to continue with my

4 investigation.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'll let you go for a while, but I hope you

6 could arrive at that point as soon as possible.

7 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour. I will do my best. It will

8 take me some minutes.

9 Q. So, Witness, do you see the name Vedran Bijuk in this document?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you read some other names mentioned just along with this

12 name?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Please read them.

15 A. Vlado Anic, Mario Drmac, and Drago Klemo.

16 Q. And thank you. And now I would like you to go to page 2 of this

17 document.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can I ask something?

20 Would my learned friend be so kind to provide us a copy? We have 17

21 binders. It is difficult for us to carry everything. If you have --

22 they're always very kind and provide us all the copies, but right now

23 we're caught without one. If we can just get a spare copy, we would be

24 most grateful.

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I am not sure, I am not sure that we have spare

Page 6942












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Page 6943

1 copies of this document, because it was before in one of the binders. We

2 have provided you with all the documents.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, no, no. We did receive it.

4 That's not what I said. However, we have a trolley with 17 binders there,

5 but we did not bring it to the courtroom, and we were not advised that

6 this document was going to be used. Otherwise, you always very kindly let

7 us know in advance what you are going to use. So what I suggest is

8 perhaps we can put on the ELMO so we can all view it. I apologise for

9 this intervention.

10 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes. Usher, if you could help us to put the

11 English version -- the Croatian version. Sorry. Do you need -- does the

12 counsel need an English version or a B/C/S version on the ELMO?

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The B/C/S, because of our clients, so

14 that our clients can actually follow and see which documents are being

15 discussed. Thank you.

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: It's not seen. Page 1 first. We were talking

17 about page 1. Will you move it up a little bit because the most

18 interesting place is not seen. Stop here. The seventh line from the

19 upper side of the second paragraph. And now I would ask you to go to page

20 2 of the same document of the B/C/S version.

21 Q. I would like you to leaf through the document, Witness VV, and

22 tell me if you see any name which is familiar to you. To make things

23 easier, I think it will be the third paragraph from the bottom. Have you

24 read it, Witness?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6944

1 Q. Do you see any name?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. Which name?

4 A. Milenko Kordic.

5 Q. Milenko Kordic. Do you mean that Milenko Kordic that you saw in

6 Ljubuski?

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] In the translation, we heard whether

9 the witness thinks that this was the person that he saw in Ljubuski; in

10 other words, it calls for pure speculation. We're in your hands. I

11 indeed do not know what the purpose of showing this document to the

12 witness is. If the witness is asked whether he thinks that this was the

13 person whom he had seen in Ljubuski, I think that that is improper form

14 for asking this question.

15 JUDGE LIU: Let's hear the answer from this witness first.


17 Q. Witness, do you see any information relevant to Milenko Kordic in

18 the brackets here?

19 A. As I read this, I noticed that I am linking this name with the

20 person in Ljubuski because even the persons who were ethnic Croats told me

21 that he had killed a priest there and this, in my mind, creates a link

22 between this person and the one that I see here.

23 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you. I don't have any questions in respect

24 of this document.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

Page 6945

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said that

2 the -- the witness said that he could not link -- that he could not link

3 person with the -- where what the witness has said, in other words, no

4 linkage between this name and the person whom he knew in Ljubuski. I can

5 do it in the cross, but I mean that was the answer that we all heard as a

6 response to what the Prosecutor said.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't know what's the problem, but from the

8 transcript, I see that "I notice that I am linking this name to this

9 person in Ljubuski," this is just an opposite. Yes.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, but the witness ...

11 [Defence council confer]

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I consulted with my colleague to --

13 the witness stated very clearly on the basis of the document, he does --

14 did not link what he read in the document with the person whom he met at

15 Ljubuski.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Prosecutor, would you ask the question again

17 and make it clear for us.


19 Q. Witness, in the transcript we have, "I noticed that I'm linking

20 this name with the person in Ljubuski." Was your response entered into

21 the transcript correctly?

22 A. According to the stories which I heard in the prison by the HVO

23 members who were imprisoned there and members of the ABiH who were

24 imprisoned there, that name does link it, in other words, I think that it

25 is one and the same person.

Page 6946












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Page 6947

1 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you.

2 Your Honour, on the last document, with your leave to be shown to

3 the witness.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think we have to have our break. We will

5 resume at quarter to 6.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 5.25 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 5.50 p.m.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Now I would like usher to show Witness VV Exhibit number P704.

11 And since the B/C/S version doesn't have pages, I direct you to

12 ERN 00795361, 00795361, English version page 9. Could you put the B/C/S

13 version on the ELMO. I would like to check if they are on the same page.

14 Yes. Yes. You can give it back to the witness.

15 Q. Witness VV, I would like you to read very closely --

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Sorry? You don't have the exhibit? It's an old

17 exhibit. 704.

18 Q. Witness, have you read it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What do you see in front of you? What is this document called?

21 A. I don't understand the question.

22 Q. Okay. What do you see in the letterhead of this document?

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if this is still part

25 of the investigation that is being conducted which you allowed, I again

Page 6948

1 don't understand what link did three documents that the Prosecutor has

2 presented make to what this witness has stated so far. He has stated that

3 he did not know any names, and now he's asking him to read some headings,

4 some names, even though the witness has stated that he did not know any.

5 I had asked in advance and you allowed it. I respect that. But I

6 think that all these questions should be disallowed.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, we understand that this witness

8 already mentioned some names during his testimony. The question is

9 whether the names on the list are related to the name the witness

10 mentioned in his testimony.

11 I'll let Mr. Prosecutor go for a while. Your objection was

12 correctly recorded in the transcript. We quite understand your concern in

13 this point, but we'll see where the Prosecutor is leading us to.

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes. I asked the witness just to read the

15 letterhead of the document, to let him understand what kind of document he

16 has in front of him.

17 A. Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, Croatian Defence Council,

18 Defence Department, Combat Group 6.


20 Q. My question will be: Witness VV, do you see the name under number

21 1?

22 A. I do.

23 Q. Under number 6?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. Under number 7?

Page 6949

1 A. I do.

2 Q. Under number 8?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. And there is one name in handwriting at the bottom of the list.

5 Can you read it?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. Could you read it, please, aloud?

8 A. Vlado Anic.

9 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. My question will be the last

10 question for today. When were you released from Ljubuski prison?

11 A. On 19 March 1994.

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV: This is the end of my examination-in-chief.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

14 Mr. Krsnik.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] We have all seen this document, and

16 we could see that the witness saw some names and we too, but we did not

17 hear a question from the Prosecutor regarding this document nor did we get

18 an answer, which means that the Prosecutor has no questions, he merely

19 wanted to show this document or what?

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Prosecutor, you may answer the question put

21 forward by the Defence counsel.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: My question was quite simple, and it is stemming

23 from the document, Exhibit P614. Some of the names were also mentioned in

24 that document and they were read out by the same witness some minutes

25 before, and I think that any further questions at this point are

Page 6950

1 redundant.

2 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination? Mr. Krsnik.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the Prosecutor turn off his mike, please.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, I will now

5 undertake the cross-examination.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Witness VV. Let me introduce myself. I'm one of

8 the counsel for the accused Mladen Naletilic, and I will be asking you

9 some questions. I always warn every witness and I will do so with you,

10 too, bear in mind two things: number one, that we both speak the same

11 language, and I am afraid I am a fast talker and I see that you are quite

12 fast, too. So that I will try to keep myself under control and will you

13 do the same thing, please? In other words, do not start answering before

14 you hear the end of my question. My second thing is I will try to put --

15 I always try to put my questions as concisely and as briefly as possible

16 and I will welcome your answers in the same vein, thank you very much.

17 Now, my first question to you will be: Have you ever heard of the

18 name Vedran Bijuk, and do you know who that is?

19 A. Counsel, sir, I said in my testimony that I did not remember that

20 name.

21 Q. Very well. Do you know who is Miroslav Kolobara?

22 A. Sir, I never met Mr. Miroslav Kolobara but I've heard of his

23 existence.

24 Q. Yes, I really -- yes, I have to slow down. Thank you.

25 I had to ask you this because of this document which the

Page 6951

1 Prosecutor showed you on two occasions, requesting an answer from you, but

2 you said in advance that is quite true that you did not know them. That

3 was the reason for my question, but thank you very much for your answers.

4 Let us now move on.

5 And Witness, I deeply sympathise with you and all that you

6 suffered in the area of Siroki Brijeg, but please understand that I have

7 to ask you some questions, so will you please try to be cooperative. I

8 have to cover this area through my cross-examination. I believe you

9 understand my standpoint, don't you?

10 So to begin with, I'd like to ask you if you remember a statement

11 which you gave on the 7th of April, 1997 to the Agency for Investigation

12 and Documentation Mostar sector; it is that famous AID, the secret

13 police. Do you remember that statement?

14 A. Sir, I gave two statements. On both occasions, investigators from

15 The Hague Tribunal were present.

16 Q. Thank you for that answer, too. So if I understood you properly,

17 at the time when you were making a statement on the 7th of April, 1997 at

18 the AID premises, the investigators of this Tribunal were also present,

19 weren't they?

20 A. I do not know whether I was at the AID, I really don't know, but I

21 know that investigators from The Hague were there.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Usher, can you please help me. I'd

23 like you to have this statement in front of you so will the usher please

24 help me to get it to you.

25 Q. You can read above, you can see what this document says where the

Page 6952

1 statement was given.

2 A. Mostar sector, but it says the Agency for Investigation and

3 Documentation, abbreviation "AID" Mostar.

4 Q. So it is on their premises that you made this statement.

5 A. I really don't know. I really --

6 Q. Will you please then turn to the last page because we also had

7 different kinds of experience here so I want to check it. Is this your

8 signature?

9 A. This one, yes.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel and witness please break

11 between question and answer.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you, Witness VV,

13 if you will be so kind as to turn to page 3.

14 Q. I want to ask you, Witness VV, can you really affirm with

15 certainty where is it in Siroki Brijeg that you were, apart from the

16 police station, which you identified today? Can you really state with any

17 confidence, can you say it to this Honourable Court and to yourself where

18 is it were you?

19 A. Sir, in my statement, I said that at the entrance of Siroki Brijeg

20 we crossed the bridge, we turned right, and about a hundred metres further

21 on. So I did not claim anything. I assumed that it could be either

22 Obnova or the tobacco station.

23 Q. Right. So we can do it together. Let us read the last statement

24 on page three. And this is what you say literally: [as read]

25 "I'm not sure where the offices of Tuta's command -- where the

Page 6953












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Page 6954

1 premises of Tuta's headquarters are. That is, I do not know who the

2 premises belong to. As far as I could see, they were -- they belonged to

3 a socially owned enterprise possibly of the Obnova enterprise, that is,

4 Obnova factory, or the tobacco station."

5 Now, my question to you is, Witness, you are not sure, as a matter

6 of fact, where is it that you were. Can you confirm that?

7 A. But I said that we arrived there late at night, that we had been

8 badly beaten. Mr. Tuta saw me in the morning with my eyes shut, so that

9 at that time I couldn't really say that with any certainty.

10 Q. In other words, you cannot say positively which is -- which are

11 the buildings that you were kept in?

12 A. I think I said that in 1990, I believe, I went through Siroki

13 Brijeg, and it is a small place. You surely know it. And it was

14 roughly -- I said it was either the socially owned company, which was then

15 Obnova. And these are rather large buildings, and that is why I assumed

16 that that must be it.

17 Q. Very well. Witness VV, you said today that it was when you saw

18 the soldiers that you inferred that it should be Tuta's command, isn't

19 that so?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Well, then, tell us now what kind of insignia did they have. You

22 indicated your left arm. Will you please tell us what kind of emblem did

23 the soldiers have?

24 A. At that moment, considering the state I was in and after all this

25 time, it is very difficult to describe it. But as far as my memory serves

Page 6955

1 me, it said in small lettering the "Convicts Battalion," as far as I can

2 recall.

3 Q. Witness VV, thank you. And once again, I apologise to you for

4 making you go once again through -- making you relive once again the

5 situation, which must be very painful. But please understand that somehow

6 we have to do that, because I have some more questions with which I'd like

7 to help this Court and all of us for the sake of the truth.

8 Tell us, did you see that that emblem could -- was a velcro

9 emblem, that is, that it could be taken off and put on?

10 A. I cannot answer that.

11 Q. And did you notice anything else on this emblem except --

12 A. I just said clearly that these emblems were visible, so that I can

13 affirm that they -- that they were soldiers of Mr. Naletilic. But as for

14 emblems, I really can't tell you more because it was a long time ago. And

15 considering what I had to live through, I really wish that nobody of any

16 ethnicity would have to go through that.

17 Q. Yes, of course. I merely wanted to ask you: Did you spot

18 anything else on these emblems apart from these words?

19 A. Well, there was some sign, some emblem there, but I can't

20 remember. I know that underneath those words there was also some kind of

21 an emblem.

22 Q. And you then concluded that they were members of the Convicts

23 Battalion because of that sign?

24 A. Well, it said so. I'm telling you that is what the word said.

25 Q. Yes, yes, yes. I see. Excuse me, but I have to ask you that.

Page 6956

1 And had they had something else, if it said the "1st Brigade," then your

2 conclusion would be that they were of the 1st -- that they were the 1st

3 Brigade?

4 A. Well, I guess so.

5 Q. Tell me, please, do you know how many units are there at Siroki

6 Brijeg?

7 A. No, sir.

8 Q. Tell me, please -- and what did the police wear? Were their

9 uniforms black, blue?

10 A. You mean the police in the prison where we spent the night?

11 Q. Yes, that's right. I mean the police at Siroki Brijeg.

12 A. Sir, the police had blue uniforms, dark, with caps. As a matter

13 of fact, we used to call them railwaymen's uniforms. I think you

14 understand what I mean. They had those caps with the shield there.

15 Q. Yes, Witness VV, of course I understand, but all we are doing

16 here, we are doing it for this Honourable Court, and the Honourable Court

17 has to understand also, so please be patient.

18 So they wore uniforms of policemen of Herceg-Bosna. We can put it

19 that way, can't we, the official one, isn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did they interrogate you?

22 A. No, sir.

23 Q. Nobody asked you any questions, none of the police?

24 A. No, except that a policeman entered and told them to let me be,

25 and that was it.

Page 6957

1 Q. Tell me, do you -- are you aware of any detached prison? Were you

2 all the time in the police detention unit?

3 A. No, sir. We came out of that prison, but that policeman was -- at

4 7.00 or 8.00, and we moved over to those facilities where we were put up

5 that night.

6 Q. Well, that is what I am asking you, Witness VV. Can you say that

7 that was not the police detention facility?

8 A. Well, I cannot say yes or no, but what I do know is that they were

9 members of the Convicts Battalion who, during the first 12 days, were

10 entering there when they ill-treated me and provoked me and battered me.

11 Later on, it changed, and I've already said so.

12 Q. Well, that is what I'm asking you. You told my learned friend

13 today that that is how they entered the police station. So what would

14 then prevent them -- if that is so, what would then prevent them to do the

15 same thing at that other place? Don't you agree with me?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Unfortunately, we could not hear the witness's

17 answer because they both speak at the same time.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

19 Q. My question was --

20 JUDGE LIU: We did not hear the witness's answer because the

21 questions and answers mingled together. Let the witness answer the

22 question first.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you repeat the question,

24 please?

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

Page 6958

1 Q. Well, my last question was whether you would agree with me that it

2 could have also been the police detention facility.

3 A. Sir, I cannot say yes or no, but from what I heard, there was

4 always a soldier in a many-coloured uniform, that is, in a camouflage

5 uniform, not a police uniform, and there was always one such man in front

6 of the door.

7 Q. Tell me, were there some other detainees with you and your

8 colleague?

9 A. There were, but for a very short time.

10 Q. Were they members of the HVO?

11 A. On the twelfth day, when they took me out to apply this electric

12 current to me, it was midnight when they took me back. It was 12.00. And

13 then Bosanac came in, unlocked the cell where my colleague was kept,

14 because we were separated, and transferred me to my colleague's place and

15 there we had to lie down on one bed, and four or five Croatian soldiers

16 were brought and a girl, and a young woman, and they were talking amongst

17 themselves that they had been detained for dealings with weapons, for

18 contraband and things, but they spent there only one night.

19 Q. You mean they spent there only one night?

20 A. Yes. They were there only one night. One of them stayed for a

21 couple of days.

22 Q. Witness, I have to ask you -- you see, I'm not interrupting you

23 and you're answering me, but will you please make your answers as short as

24 possible and will you please focus on what I'm asking you?

25 A. But, sir, I have to answer you properly because "yes" or "no" is

Page 6959

1 really not for me.

2 Q. Yes, very well. Very well. But please try to make your answers

3 as brief as possible and focus on my questions.

4 JUDGE LIU: I think you have to make -- I think you have to make a

5 pause between the question and the answers, Mr. Krsnik. You really give a

6 difficult time to the interpreters.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness VV, I will now ask you to once again and in detail

9 describe the person whom you heard addressed as Bosanac.

10 A. Sir, I have already explained that. I do not think there is any

11 need for me to explain it again. I can do it if the Honourable Court

12 orders me to. I can do it a hundred times.

13 Q. What I meant was the colour of his eyes, how tall he is, if you

14 remember, of course, his hair, his build. That's what I meant. With as

15 much detail as possible, if you can do that.

16 A. Sir, at that time, please put yourself in my shoes and then tell

17 me what is the colour of somebody's eyes.

18 Q. Yes. I understand.

19 I know it is not easy for you, but this is the third time I'm

20 asking you, and if it is too hard on you then we can skip that, but I

21 think that you should be interested in identifying the person who was

22 called Bosanac just for the sake of truth and justice, and I care very

23 much about that and my client cares very much about that. We want to

24 identify that person, if that is possible, because of what he did. I mean

25 he needs to be called to account whoever did that.

Page 6960












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Page 6961

1 A. Well, that is what it should be.

2 Q. And that is why I'm asking if it is not too hard for you to give

3 us some more detail. Of course, if it is too difficult for you, then we

4 will move on.

5 A. I can't do it. Now you want how tall he was, 185 to 190,

6 strongly -- powerful built man, short, fair hair. That is what I still

7 have in my memory.

8 Q. So you say "fair hair."

9 A. Short hair, very, very short, crewcut hair. Fair, yes.

10 Q. When you say fair, you mean fair hair, blond?

11 A. [No audible response]

12 Q. Thank you for this answer. And whilst they were at it, while they

13 were doing this evil with that induction telephone, did any one of you say

14 "Stop it. Stop it. The old man is on his way."

15 A. Yes. And they said it in a sort of panicky voice and very upset.

16 There was a tape recorder so that one could hear it, and one of them

17 shouted, "I do not know who it is, oh, here comes the old man, get him

18 away," and so they switched me off and took me back to the cellar.

19 Q. We have to wait for the interpretation to end, you know. Can we

20 then agree that my client had absolutely no idea about this nor could he

21 have any idea about that?

22 A. Sir, had it happened to me only once, I might believe that, but

23 for 12 days, during those 12 days, I was several times beaten by those

24 four or five soldiers and, according to my book, the commander had to know

25 about it.

Page 6962

1 Q. Very well. Tell me, do you personally know if my client ever

2 found that out?

3 A. Personally, I do not know that.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, I will ask you to tell me how many times were you

5 personally -- how many times did you see with your eyes Mr. Tuta Naletilic

6 in that building in which you were or around that building or generally

7 once you were there? How many times did you see him?

8 A. Sir, in my statement, I said that I saw him only once, that time

9 when they took me to the office and we were drinking tea and coffee, that

10 is, I did not see him again during my stay in the camp.

11 Q. Do you then know if Mr. Naletilic was there all the time? Did he

12 ever go into that building?

13 A. As far as I can remember, sir, since we were in the cellar and it

14 was dark, unlit space, one could feel when the commander is absent, then

15 there is commotion and noise and then, all of a sudden, everything becomes

16 very quiet and that is how we guess that the commander must have arrived.

17 Whether Mr. Naletilic or somebody else, I do not know, but that is how one

18 could make one's assumptions.

19 Q. And you are positive that Mr. Naletilic is the commander?

20 A. The commander of the Convicts Battalion, is that what you mean?

21 Q. I don't know of what. That is what you are telling us. The

22 commander of anything.

23 A. Sir, everybody knew that in Mostar, from a toddler to the grown-up

24 people, Muslims and Croats: The Convicts Battalion, that's Mladen

25 Naletilic, Tuta. Even small children knew that.

Page 6963

1 Q. Well, thank you very much for that answer too. And was that so

2 ever since the days of the war against the Serbs?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Since you mentioned the war against the Serbs, didn't Bosniaks

5 have a high opinion of Tuta and Daja and didn't they always say, "Well,

6 where Tuta and Daja are, we can be calm. We can be at rest." Didn't the

7 Bosniaks point that out invariably?

8 A. Sir, I do not know that. I was linked up with those Croats who

9 were in the HVO and whom I knew before and -- who were my friends.

10 Q. But tell us, didn't Bosniaks have a very, very high opinion of

11 Tuta because of his contribution to the war against the Serbs?

12 A. I do not know that. Don't ask me about that.

13 Q. Very well. Very well. No, I meant -- I see that you know lots of

14 things, you were into very many things, so I thought that maybe you had

15 heard something about that. I mean when the Prosecutor asked you about

16 Mostar, then you --

17 A. Well, sir, I live in Mostar.

18 Q. Yes, yes, yes. Well, that's why I'm asking you.

19 Witness VV, my client and I, regardless of who that could be, we

20 were both very concerned about your claim because it is really horrible

21 thing. It is really true that for 16 days you were given no water?

22 A. No, sir. All we had were empty Coca Cola bottles and we relieved

23 ourselves in them, that is, we urinated into it, and we used it to rinse

24 our mouths with.

25 Q. Then what did you drink for these 16 days?

Page 6964

1 A. Please, nothing, sir, nothing.

2 Q. Tell me, please, Witness, this man nicknamed General, you said

3 that his nickname was General.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you describe him to us? I know what you said, but could you

6 please give us another detail, if you can remember, whether you said that

7 he was thin, about 185 tall?

8 A. Black hair.

9 Q. You mean truly black hair?

10 A. Yes, black hair. He had a crutch.

11 Q. You mean a crutch, so he was a wounded?

12 A. Well, I guess he must have been wounded, which he used to beat me,

13 so that is what stuck in my memory. But he came on a couple of occasions,

14 whereas Bosanac came every day.

15 Q. And you said that when you were in Mr. Naletilic's office, that

16 his hair was grey, was markedly grey?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Tell me, were you to be exchanged for some HVO soldiers?

19 A. I told you, sir, when Maka Radic came in, that's what he told me.

20 I cannot really say yes or no. I'm telling you only what Mr. Maka Radic

21 told me.

22 Q. And -- I see. Now, tell me, did you -- were you ever or did the

23 police or anyone take you to court for questioning? Did anyone tell you

24 that the criminal investigation was being conducted against you?

25 A. No, sir, never.

Page 6965

1 Q. And to this day, you do not know that the court in Mostar

2 conducted a criminal -- conducted criminal proceedings against you and

3 others?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. Tell me, in the light of your answers, there is -- it would serve

6 no purpose to show you the photographs of Siroki Brijeg because apart from

7 the police station, you wouldn't be able to identify them?

8 A. No, sir, I couldn't really say anything with certainty.

9 Q. Tell me, that man nicknamed Splico, did he have the same kind of

10 emblem as those you saw at Siroki Brijeg?

11 A. Counsel, sir, I cannot say that because at the moment when I was

12 arrested, Kolobara approached me, doused me with petrol. My hands were

13 tied behind my back and he sprinkled my face with petrol.

14 Q. Only you?

15 A. Yes, only me.

16 Q. And only your face?

17 A. Yes, only my face. At that was at Dumpor's houses where we were

18 captured.

19 Q. I'm looking at the transcript, you know.

20 In this area, Dumpor's houses, were they already destroyed from

21 the war against the Serbs?

22 A. Counsel, these, the houses where we were had already burnt down.

23 It is possible that it was during the hostilities against the Serbs, but

24 it was possible that they were burnt down that day because I was in Mostar

25 at the hospital.

Page 6966

1 Q. But when you were there, they were already burnt down?

2 A. Yes, but when we were there in front of us, we saw some other

3 houses on fire, looking from there Neretva up towards Raska Gora. These

4 were new flames.

5 Q. Excuse me, I just had to consult for a moment.

6 Perhaps we did not understand each other. The Dumpor houses, had

7 they already been burned down?

8 A. Counsel, there are over 40 houses in Rastani and there were only a

9 cluster of five or six there and they had been burned before.

10 Q. You did not see anyone torching houses while you were there?

11 A. While I was there, I did not see it, but as we were coming, the

12 smoke was coming and the flames were there. And Kolobara was walking

13 around with a large container, 10, 15 litre container.

14 Q. This was Kolobara?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. But you did not see him torching anything?

17 A. No, he just doused me.

18 Q. And was Splico there?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did he have any kind of container?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, you told me that there were some civilians there. How were

23 they dressed?

24 A. Counsel, I said that in the statement before this Tribunal that

25 there were three or four in front of them, that I saw one of them in jeans

Page 6967












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6968

1 and a T-shirt.

2 Q. And the others?

3 A. I don't know, I didn't see them. They were off to the side. This

4 is the one I noticed because he was the closest to me. And sir, I still

5 see that young man on the east side and he has had mental problems ever

6 since.

7 Q. The one whom you saw in jeans there, right?

8 A. Yes. I believe he lived in Bijeli Brijeg until the conflict.

9 Q. And the others you never saw nor were they anywhere close to you.

10 A. [No audible response]

11 Q. I'm going to ask you now to look please at the statement that is

12 in front of you again and turn to page 2, paragraph 2.

13 "As soon as we were captured on 23 September 1993, Marinko doused

14 me with petrol, intending to set me on fire. However, he first called

15 somebody on the hand-held Motorola radio he was holding in his hand and

16 talked to somebody from Siroki Brijeg. As far as I understood, this

17 person told him that we had to be brought in alive."

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Today you said that he first doused you, then called, made the

20 call, and then it was said that it was the old man and then you inferred

21 that it was Tuta. And now I'm going to ask the usher to please hand you

22 this other statement. In fact, you said that you gave both statements in

23 the presence of the ICTY investigators, but this statement is the one that

24 you gave on the 9th of March, 1998.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, of course I have all

Page 6969

1 the statements here. I am just going to cover some things with him, so

2 this is why I'm giving him. If you feel that you need your own copies, I

3 have a sufficient number of copies here.

4 Q. Will you please take the 1998 statement and turn to page --

5 page 4, please.

6 A. Page 4.

7 Q. Page 4, paragraph number 5. Did you find that, sir? Which starts

8 like this:

9 "After that, Marinko Kolobara, one of the members of the Convicts

10 Battalion, took a container with gasoline and splashed my face with

11 gasoline, put a lighter close to my face, placed his finger on the button

12 of the lighter but did not push it. At that same moment, Kolobara

13 received an order on the Motorola radio, I think from Tuta, to take us to

14 the Convicts Battalion in Siroki Brijeg," and so on and so forth.

15 Perhaps we should go on and read the next sentence: "Kolobara

16 said that the old man had ordered the prisoners taken to his headquarters,

17 and he referred to Tuta."

18 What I want to ask you is this: The statement you gave in 1998 is

19 at odds with what you said of the one before. You never mentioned Tuta or

20 Daja. You said someone, but here now you said, "I believe -- I think it's

21 Tuta. It's the old man," and so on.

22 A. Sir, I can explain this to you.

23 Q. Go ahead, please.

24 A. He first doused me with petrol and then he approached me to torch

25 me, and then he received a call. I said to Their Honours that I did not

Page 6970

1 know who the old man was at that time. I only learned that in Siroki

2 Brijeg. So this had happened before.

3 Q. That is fine, but when you gave your statement in 1997, you gave a

4 completely different version. You never mentioned Tuta or the old man by

5 a single word, and you said that before he had doused with petrol that he

6 was already talking on the Motorola.

7 A. Sir, I think that that is wrong.

8 Q. We can read it again.

9 A. Go ahead. It is possible that that's how it was stated. It is

10 the wrong sequence. It was a tough situation for me. It is hard to

11 describe it in words.

12 Q. I understand. I fully understand. But, Witness, you do not

13 mention either Naletilic nor the old man, not a single word. But in the

14 later statement, you said that it was Tuta, and today you gave an

15 explanation that the old man was supposedly Tuta, that you assumed that

16 that is who it was. Do you see the difference?

17 A. Sir, I don't know what you want me to say. I said that I learned

18 in Siroki Brijeg, when I was detained, that it was Tuta. At that time, I

19 could not have said that it was Tuta. I did not know who he was talking

20 to. But he then passed on to his soldiers that the old man had ordered

21 that the detainees are to be brought back alive to Siroki Brijeg.

22 Q. Witness, I appreciate your patience, and I know that it's not easy

23 for you to be in this courtroom today. I completely understand and

24 sympathise with your position, but also please understand me. I'm doing

25 my job. So let us not get excited. It is going to be easier for you

Page 6971

1 too. We'll move faster through this evidence.

2 I only wanted to ask you whether this statement you gave in 1997

3 and what you told them in 1997 was the truth.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. See? It's very simple. That's all I wanted to say.

6 A. Whatever I had stated to the Trial Chamber is true.

7 Q. And also what you said in your statements?

8 A. Yes, of course. That goes without saying. A lot of time has

9 passed. Years have passed. Maybe the sequence of events, as I said, may

10 not be right, but all the facts are right and correct. This is what

11 happened.

12 Q. All I wanted to ask is this, because this statement -- again,

13 let's go to page 2 of the statement from 1997, this second paragraph. And

14 let's not read it again. "Immediately after we were captured ...." Last

15 paragraph on page 1 in the English version.

16 Did you find it, Witness?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So, "Marinko doused me with gasoline," and so on, "intending to

19 set me on fire. However, he had talked to somebody from Siroki Brijeg on

20 a Motorola beforehand, and as far as I understood, this person told him

21 that we had to be brought in alive."

22 That's all you said; right?

23 A. Let me explain. Before he set me on fire, he -- after he had

24 doused me and before he set me on fire, he received a call on the

25 Motorola.

Page 6972

1 Q. I think I understand now. Tell me, on the 23rd of September, how

2 many units were fighting on the side of the HVO?

3 A. I don't know that.

4 Q. And since today you said that you were at Rastani on the 22nd; is

5 that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You see, you did not mention that in any of your statements, not

8 until today.

9 A. Sir, I talked about combat operations, and I never took part in

10 combat operations. On 22nd, I carried food and ammunition, and after the

11 22nd, the HVO units started attacking Rastani. That was on the 22nd. And

12 I was in Vrapcici.

13 Q. As an ABiH soldier?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I assume with a rifle.

16 A. No. I did not have a rifle. You mean on the 22nd?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. But the line was there on the 22nd.

19 Q. So this is why I'm asking you. In your estimate, if you can say,

20 how many soldiers of the HVO took part in the fighting?

21 A. I'm unable to tell you. I can only tell you what I saw, and I

22 cannot really assume things.

23 Q. Tell me, this Marinko Kolobara, whom you frequently mention in all

24 your statements, that is in both of the statements, I did not understand

25 well because you gave two different answers to the Prosecutor. [redacted]

Page 6973

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 Q. And Marinko was his relative?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Very well. We've cleared it up. Was Marinko Kolobara also from

9 Vrapcici?

10 A. Sir, he was from Livac. That is part of Bijelo Polje.

11 Q. Livac and Vrapcici are next to each other. Excuse me. Just for

12 the record -- I see. Livac is in. Livac is part of Bijelo Polje, and

13 it's adjacent to Vrapcici; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. On that day, the 23rd, were you armed?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you have a Kalashnikov?

18 A. It was a Ciganka, a "gypsy" so-called. It was a JNA issue.

19 Q. Just for the record, Ciganka?

20 A. Yes. That is sort of a local word for a type of Kalashnikov.

21 Q. This is just -- this is just a clarification. ^ Ciganka, is it

22 the same as a Kalashnikov, only manufactured in domestically?

23 A. Yes, in Crvena Zastava.

24 Q. And your colleague was also armed?

25 A. Yes. And he had the same -- he was tasked with the same thing.

Page 6974












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6975

1 Q. That is to bringing ammunition, right?

2 A. I don't know if this was a combat task. I was tasked with

3 bringing ammunition, not taking part in combat. And those who captured us

4 checked the barrels of our weapons and they were clean; in other words, we

5 had not used them to fire.

6 Q. And you also were wearing ABiH uniforms?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So you were in uniform, armed and with backpacks with 750 pieces

9 of bullets, of ammunition?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did you have any grenades?

12 A. As far as I recall --

13 Q. Did you not also carry a backpack with grenades?

14 A. No, sir. I may have had one grenade, and I cannot recall about my

15 colleague, but I don't remember us carrying any.

16 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you now --

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, 34.3, please.

18 Q. This is going to show Rastani, and I'm going to ask you to help me

19 identify some things. It is going to be fairly difficult to work with

20 this picture because it's elongated, but please take the pointer and let's

21 start with the -- from the point where it says "Exhibit." So will you

22 show to Their Honours and to everyone how far did the ABiH advance until

23 the 20th? You said it was the so-called fly-over or the underpass and

24 then on, all the way out to the power plant so that Their Honours could

25 gain a good picture of what the front line was.

Page 6976

1 A. What you can see on this map, you can see this hill.

2 Q. You mean all the way to the right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Are you taking us up the hill now?

5 A. Yes, up. And it was all along the houses, all the way to the

6 Power Plant Mostar 1 which unfortunately we can't see here.

7 Q. And how far is it from here?

8 A. I wouldn't be able to know. The road goes left, right, and

9 around.

10 Q. Witness, please, I think that here you may be able to mark

11 everything from the underpass to the power plant.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 34.2.

13 [Defence counsel confer]

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness, will you please take a pen and mark how far the ABiH

16 advanced and then maybe you can draw a circle at the power plant.

17 A. [Marks] Sir, this would be approximately it. There may be some

18 deviations but I mentioned those houses.

19 Q. We don't need to be accurate. This is just to get a general

20 picture, and I thank you.

21 Now, can we use the dotted line along -- to mark the Neretva River

22 or mark it with letter N.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we lost the image.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe we did not pay our bill.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Perhaps this could be the right

Page 6977

1 moment to actually stop for the day and continue tomorrow because it is

2 7.00.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I'm just going to say that. Tomorrow, we'll

4 resume at 2.15 in the Courtroom I. We are adjourned at this moment.

5 Before that, Witness, I have to give you a piece of advice as I

6 did with other witnesses, not to talk to anybody about your testimony

7 today and do not let anybody talk to you about it.

8 Do you understand?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We will adjourn now.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

12 at 7.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday

13 the 5th day of December, 2001, at

14 2.15 p.m.