Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7423

1 Tuesday, 8 January 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Seric.

9 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just a quick -- I

10 don't know how to call it, a question or a clarification. Good morning,

11 Your Honours. Yesterday, we received a schedule, a court schedule, from

12 which it follows that we will be working every day through the 1st of

13 April in the morning and also the afternoons in this courtroom. We saw,

14 given the pace, that the Prosecution could be finished by the 18th or, at

15 the latest, by the 25th of January this year, and based on the schedule of

16 this courtroom, it seems to us that, as far as our case is concerned, the

17 continuous set of hearings has been envisaged without any breaks at any

18 time.

19 Mr. President, Your Honours, we do need certain breaks in order to

20 be able to finish our case, in order to be able to contact the witnesses

21 we have identified so far and the new witnesses which we have identified

22 since, based on all the evidence and all the witnesses that will be called

23 in this case and in the Prosecution case. So we would like to ask for a

24 break in order to complete the preparations for our case.

25 Mr. President, Your Honours, can you tell us whether we have

Page 7424

1 understood the schedule properly so that we can file a motion in order to

2 ask for the time necessary for us to complete the preparation for our

3 case. Thank you.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much, Mr. Seric, to bring this question

5 to the attention to the Chamber.

6 As we understand, that time schedule is just a tentative one. And

7 we also believe that it's quite reasonable for you to have some time to

8 prepare your case after the Prosecution's case, which is also the practice

9 before this Tribunal. As for how long that time will be, I believe that

10 will be the subject of the Pre-Defence conference which will be scheduled

11 after the Prosecution's case. That's all I'm going to say at this moment.

12 If you have any suggestions about how much time you need to prepare your

13 case, you may file a motion and make some suggestions about it.

14 Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the witness.

15 [The witness entered court]


17 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

18 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.

19 THE COURT: Before we start, I just want to remind you that you

20 are still under the oath. Any cross-examination?

21 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. Good

23 morning, Your Honours, and thank you very much.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

Page 7425

1 A. Morning, sir.

2 Q. Allow me to introduce myself. I represent the accused here, Mr.

3 Mr. Mladen Naletilic, and I will be asking you certain questions. I'm

4 going to try to frame them in such a way to receive as short answers from

5 you as possible so that we can move forward. And will you please take

6 into account that we are both working through the interpreters, so please

7 bear that in mind and make breaks between questions and answers.

8 Now, I'm going to move into my first area of questioning. If I

9 understood you correctly, that is, your evidence before this Trial Chamber

10 and the statement that you had given to the OTP, as an observer of the

11 European Union, you spent a total of 40 days in the area of Mostar, from

12 24 May through 14th June continuously -- sorry, 14 July. Then you --

13 sorry, 14 June, and until the end of June, you were on vacation, then you

14 could not re-enter Mostar when you returned and you only covered the

15 Siroki Brijeg area.

16 A. That's not correct, sir. My leave was in July, not in June.

17 Q. Yes, I do.

18 A. You said June, but it was in July.

19 Q. Right, it started on the 14th of July, and then it last until the

20 end of July.

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. And after that, on the 22nd of August, you left Herzegovina, that

23 is, you ended your mission. And in this period of time, you moved about

24 the Siroki Brijeg area because you had no access to Mostar. Is that

25 correct, that is, you never entered Mostar, either the east or the west

Page 7426

1 side?

2 A. About which period are you talking now?

3 Q. I'm referring to the period after you were unable, based on your

4 own evidence, after you were unable to enter the city of Mostar, that is,

5 to visit it.

6 A. You mean after returning of my leave, my short leave, are you

7 talking about that period?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. I think that's correct, yeah.

10 Q. So my question first was correct in saying that you spent

11 approximately a month and a half in the area, plus/minus a day or two?

12 A. Well, I didn't count all the days, but approximately.

13 Q. And the reports that you were filing were based on the knowledge

14 that you had, that is, in the period of -- while you were stationed

15 there. In other words, your reports covered the period of that month and

16 a half, approximately.

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. Your task was to report to your centre in Zenica, and they were to

19 forward those reports to the European Union, the international community.

20 And those reports were compiled by yourself with the assistance of others,

21 or not, and they were based on what you, yourself, learned. You yourself

22 are not an intelligence officer, you were not there as an intelligence

23 officer. Is that correct?

24 A. It's not a military organisation, and ECMM doesn't have

25 intelligence officers, so that's correct.

Page 7427

1 Q. You said that you had an interpreter who were I think a Muslim?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Is it true -- is it correct that you deliberately did not want to

4 take an ethnic Croat interpreter because you did not trust a Croat?

5 A. That's not correct because we had three or four in Siroki Brijeg,

6 all Croats, so we were the only one who worked with Muslim.

7 Q. The majority of time, that is, until you were not given permission

8 to enter Mostar, you kept ethnic Muslim interpreters; it was only at

9 Siroki Brijeg that you had an ethnic Croat interpreter?

10 A. It's not clear. Is it a question? I don't understand what you

11 want to know. Sorry.

12 Q. I would like to ask you, you had an exclusively Muslim interpreter

13 until you were denied ability to enter Mostar. Is that correct?

14 A. Let me make it very clear: We, as team M2, only worked with one

15 interpreter when we went from Siroki Brijeg into Mostar. That means,

16 working in Mostar on both sides, we worked with that interpreter. We

17 picked her up every day in Mostar and brought her back before we went back

18 to Siroki Brijeg. In all other cases in Siroki Brijeg, at the CC, we were

19 working with the other interpreters that were Croats.

20 Q. Witness, in the statement you gave on 8, 9, 10, and 13 of August,

21 2001 - and I'm going to show you the statement in English so that you can

22 follow - page 1, page 1 of your statement, fifth paragraph.

23 A. Sorry, there is no page 1. Second. Second.

24 Q. Paragraph 5. In my Croat version, it says, "We deliberately had

25 hired a Muslim interpreter because we were afraid that the Bosnian Croat

Page 7428

1 interpreters would brief the Bosnian Croat leaders about us."

2 A. Well, that's correct.

3 Q. And you were not afraid that the Muslim interpreters could pass on

4 information to the Muslim leadership?

5 A. That's correct. Because she was living at the west bank and not

6 on the east side.

7 Q. And she continued to live on the west side with her family

8 normally?

9 A. I don't know. During my stay there, she was living on the west

10 side, yeah, that's correct.

11 Q. Did you have an opportunity to verify that this interpreter was

12 not a member of some kind of service? How did you find her? Who

13 recommended her to you?

14 A. We found her ourselves and asked her if she was willing to serve

15 us as team M2 downtown.

16 Q. You had no knowledge that she may have been with the intelligence

17 services of the Muslim army?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. You said, and it is of general assumption here, that your role was

20 to have been impartial and objective as -- your being a member of the EU

21 monitoring team, your sympathies were never tipped more towards the Muslim

22 side than to the other side. You were always perfectly objective?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. Later on when we address your reports -- I don't have that

25 impression. It seems to me that you trusted anything that the Muslims

Page 7429

1 were telling you and that you were questioning everything that the Croat

2 officials were telling you and you did not trust them.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

4 MR. SCOTT: Object to the statements and characterisation of

5 counsel, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, rephrase your question.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour.

8 Q. And, sir, I apologise to you. It is just purely an impression of

9 mine. Any comment -- you continuously made comments about statements of

10 Croat officials that they cannot be trusted, and when you handle

11 statements by Muslim officials, it seems as if you never placed such doubt

12 on their statements. I will take you back to that when we go through your

13 reports, but this is not -- this was not meant as personal comment

14 regarding you.

15 Would you be so kind as to tell me whether you managed to learn

16 how many Muslim refugees were there in Mostar when you arrived there on

17 24th of May, 1993? How many Muslim refugees were in the city and how many

18 Croat refugees were there.

19 A. At first, a very short comment on your first remark.

20 Unfortunately, what you saw in my statement were not all my reports. That

21 means it was the investigation by the Prosecutor. So when you see all my

22 reports, you see that we were also impartially dealing with remarks from

23 the other side. That's one point.

24 Secondly, about the refugees and displaced persons, it was

25 actually impossible by us to have an exact number at that moment, so the

Page 7430

1 numbers you find in the reports were set by the officials from both sides.

2 We only learned the numbers in discussions and in question and answering

3 with the local authorities.

4 Q. Witness, the reports you drafted, you had drafted, did you turn

5 them over to the OTP? I did not see all of them. Do the OTP have them or

6 does somebody else has these reports that you had compiled?

7 A. Well, I found, on diskette, most all my daily reports myself, and

8 that was a very good possibility to bring back everything that happened at

9 that time and to recall what happened and what I did.

10 Q. And these reports are your personal property or do they exist

11 somewhere else?

12 A. Well, most of them, and my personal notes, are personal property,

13 of course, yeah. And I don't know if the EU, for instance, or someone

14 else has the completed files.

15 Q. Witness, during your tour of duty, were you able to learn the

16 ownership of the apartments where the refugees moved in? Did you learn

17 that about 10.000 apartments were vacated by the Serbs who had left and

18 that the refugees, predominantly Muslim refugees, had entered those

19 vacated apartments?

20 A. We don't have that knowledge.

21 Q. So when you say that -- that is you personally, or if you heard

22 that somebody had entered some apartment, you did not know whether the

23 person was a proper owner of such an apartment, that he had entered it

24 provisionally, or did they have a lease, or they had something called

25 tenants' rights at that time. In other words, the State would turn over

Page 7431

1 and give certain apartments to use to certain individuals during the

2 period when they worked for a certain enterprise or certain institution.

3 So did you know about this?

4 A. Well, the cases we saw and were dealing with definitely belonged

5 to people who were living there for a long time and were citizens of

6 Mostar and living on the west bank for many years.

7 Q. You investigated that and you can claim this based on your

8 investigation, or somebody told you about this and you are saying it

9 because somebody had told you this?

10 A. Both.

11 Q. You've just prompted me to ask you something else. I'm going to

12 show you later on something from your documents I'm going to go through,

13 but Exhibit 456.4, there was a list, and the Prosecutor discussed this

14 with you. There was a list of persons who allegedly had left Mostar, and

15 you were given this list by Arif Pasalic, a long list. You had it in

16 front of you yesterday. I think the Prosecutor showed it to you.

17 Did you interview any of those individuals who allegedly were

18 expelled?

19 A. Well, sir, when you are talking about the list - and I recall well

20 there were 88 persons - we didn't. We did not.

21 Q. That's right, 88. And you did not interview any of them.

22 Did you manage to learn from others who also told you they had

23 been expelled when they had arrived in Mostar because many were arriving

24 from the Podvelezje area, that is, the Mount Velez area. As you know,

25 the Mostar region is a sizeable region, and all Muslims fled the Serb

Page 7432

1 aggression from the east side to the west side. You know, this is

2 actually one city even though it has these two sections.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

4 MR. SCOTT: My apology, Your Honour. I don't think it's Defence

5 counsel's role to make factual assertions in the courtroom and give

6 comments to the witness and ask the witness to comment on his assertions.

7 JUDGE LIU: That's probably true, Mr. Krsnik.

8 JUDGE CLARK: Can I add, Mr. Krsnik, that this is the first time

9 that this suggestion has been made, although we have had a large number of

10 Muslim residents of Mostar who have given evidence of having been

11 transported from one side to the other. You haven't made this suggestion

12 to any of them, and we did warn you about this, that in cross-examination,

13 you have to lay the ground. It's not enough to just do it in the Defence

14 case. I just wonder why you didn't raise this question with any of the

15 many witnesses who gave evidence before.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Clark, with your

17 permission, I had discussions with witnesses about this and I was asking

18 them questions about the ownership of apartments, where they had come

19 from, and then a number of refugees from the area of Podvelezje and

20 Nevesinje, I did ask a number of witnesses such questions. Sorry.

21 I only wanted to ask this witness, as an objective monitor of the

22 EU, what he was able to learn within the month and a half that he spent in

23 the area.

24 JUDGE CLARK: I have no recollection of you asking specific

25 witnesses that the Prosecution called, suggesting to them that they didn't

Page 7433

1 have legal title to the flat. And I don't believe that a single witness

2 who has been called by the Prosecution was unable to show that they had

3 legal title to the flat from which they were evicted. I believe that

4 there were witnesses at the very beginning of the trial who would have

5 been in a position to assist you in relation to that. I think some early

6 witnesses said that many refugees were housed in buildings and not

7 allocated to particular flats from which they were evicted. So I believe

8 that you're shifting the ground somewhat, but however, I understand where

9 you're coming from.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you have to ask your question in the

11 form of a question rather than make a statement of yourself and ask the

12 witness whether he agrees with your statement or not. Try to do it in the

13 form of a question.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour. Thank you

15 for your suggestions and guidelines.

16 Q. Now, let us move on to another subject. Witness, you said that

17 when you came to Mostar, it looked like Beirut to you, where you had also

18 served. That is, to say, it resembled Beirut in terms of the destruction

19 you saw there. Do you know where to what extent Mostar was destroyed

20 during the Serb aggression and to what extent it was destroyed during this

21 conflict between the Croats and Muslims?

22 A. When I came in, of course, the city was already, for a part,

23 destroyed. I only can tell you about increasing of destruction during my

24 stay there.

25 Q. Tell me, the intensity of the destruction, was it the same from

Page 7434

1 the Croat and the Muslim sides, were exchanges of gunfire taking place

2 every day?

3 A. Depends on the calibre.

4 Q. First question: Exchange of gunfire, did it take place every day

5 from both sides as far as sniper fire is concerned?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Shelling?

8 A. Depends what kind of shelling. Direct or indirect?

9 Q. Of course, I'm not an expert, sir, Witness, for military matters.

10 But first, directly.

11 A. Well, let me explain it to you. Directly was only done from the

12 west to the east side because of the equipment. When we are talking about

13 directly, we are talking about artillery, for instance, or hand-held

14 weapons with direct line of sight. Indirectly, for instance, could be

15 artillery but most of the time were used mortars. Mortars was used on

16 both sides.

17 Q. Witness, in front of you, you have your statement, and you said

18 there -- and now that you've given me this explanation, it's quite clear

19 to me. It's much clearer. You said that they exchanged gunfire, mortar

20 fire, 120 millimetres, and that the Croat side had weapons up to 120

21 millimetres. Does that mean that they had mortars or would that calibre

22 imply guns, cannons?

23 A. We are talking about mortar.

24 Q. Mortars?

25 A. In the area they had mortars up to 120 millimetres. That was the

Page 7435

1 biggest calibre.

2 Q. Both sides, right?

3 A. I know that 120 was on the west side. I don't know if they had

4 120 on the east side. I don't believe it. I never saw it.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Thank you.

6 Witness, would you tell me whether you have any personal knowledge

7 of whether the Serbs were firing at Mostar in the months of April and May?

8 I'm sorry, this is April and May 1993, of course.

9 A. Let me read your question, sorry.

10 Well, as you saw in the reports, I came to Mostar in late May, so

11 when you are talking about April and May, before I came in, I don't know.

12 I can't answer this question.

13 Q. I see that you were interested in quite a few things and that you

14 had various sources. Did you hear that there had been shelling from the

15 Serb side in the months of April and May, and that it was aimed at East

16 Mostar?

17 A. I know that we had some rumours, we heard some rumours about that.

18 We never could actually confirm that kind of information.

19 Q. Thank you. Witness, when you visited East Mostar, did you compile

20 information about the entirety of the situation? For example, did you

21 visit detained, imprisoned Croats in East Mostar?

22 A. That's correct, sir, and that is in one of my reports also.

23 Q. Could you talk to them freely, I mean the detained Croats, as you

24 talked freely to people at the Heliodrom?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 7436

1 Q. Witness, tell me, in West Mostar, was there also a reduction of

2 water as was the case in East Mostar, or was there an abundance of water?

3 A. Sorry. By my knowledge, sir, especially in the second half of

4 June, also the water supply or the water in the west was not enough.

5 Q. Sir, could you please be so kind as to tell us whether you visited

6 the 4th primary school in Mostar -- I beg your pardon, East Mostar, the

7 4th primary school, where Croat civilians were detained?

8 A. I'm not aware of the 4th primary school. I don't know which

9 building you are talking about.

10 Q. I'm talking about the building that is on the east side, in the

11 old part. It was a primary school. It was a school that was transformed

12 into a camp.

13 A. Well, when you are talking about the building in front of the HQ

14 of the 4th Armija, then we are talking about the same building.

15 Q. This school was near the hospital in East Mostar.

16 A. We only visit a place in front of the HQ what was used as prison,

17 and we saw there prisoners and HVO soldiers at that time.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 Tell me, how many times was the HVO hospital on the west side of

20 Mostar, how many times was it supplied with all necessary material that

21 had been requested? You did have a list.

22 A. Well, on the west side, there was never a request to us to supply,

23 and I believe that, on the west side, they had enough equipment and

24 supply.

25 Q. I'm sorry, I'm not following the interpretation. I'm sorry, now

Page 7437

1 I'll start following the interpretation, too. I apologise. Obviously we

2 have misunderstood each other.

3 At the request of the hospital in East Mostar, due to a shortage

4 of medicines and bandages and all other supplies, they gave you a kind of

5 list. Is that correct?

6 A. The east side gave us a list, that's correct.

7 Q. And then you went to the west side, and you talked to physicians,

8 or rather, Dr. Bagaric and other doctors about the needs of the hospital

9 on the east side. Is that correct?

10 A. That's correct. We handed over the list to them.

11 Q. And how many times were requests put forth and how many times did

12 you get all the necessary equipment and how many times was it submitted to

13 the hospital on the east side? I mean, things like this, were they given

14 from the hospital on the west side to the hospital on the east side?

15 A. By my knowledge, twice; two times, sir.

16 Q. Tell me, was a request also put forth for a joint hospital, and

17 had this come as an initiative -- I know that you and I understand each

18 other, so I'll try to shorten things. But we know the east/west decided

19 to set up a joint hospital under the control of the Red Cross and other

20 international organisations on the west bank.

21 A. That's correct. That was one of the proposals, that it was the

22 hospital in the confrontation line so that didn't work, of course, and

23 nobody was very in favour to do that.

24 Q. Before that, was there an initiative that doctors from the west

25 side should go and work in shifts on the east side but they had refused

Page 7438

1 that because they feared for their safety and security on the east side?

2 They were afraid that they would be arrested by the Muslims? Do you have

3 any knowledge of that?

4 A. Well, that was one of the points they brought up, they brought up.

5 Actually, they were willing to do it, but there were a lot of points they

6 brought up. One of the points was the security on the east side and,

7 secondly, the security on the west side when they should go there. So

8 they needed, of course, security from the Muslim side, but also from HVO

9 side.

10 And I know, because we worked a long time on this issue, that the

11 east side was willing to do that, of course, because their situation was

12 very, very bad. And HVO, at the end, didn't agree upon safetiness for

13 their property and family on the west side.

14 Q. Was this the HVO or personally the doctors? Was it the doctors

15 themselves who expressed their dissatisfaction because they didn't want to

16 go to the other side because the Muslim side would not guarantee their

17 security, so it's the doctors personally not the HVO? That is to say,

18 doctors from the west side did not want to go to the east side, they

19 personally refused to go because the Muslim side, through your joint

20 commissions that you always try to organise, did not get guarantees for

21 their personal safety.

22 A. I think I have to read your text first.

23 Let me make it very clear: The doctors were willing to do that.

24 We had a list of doctors. They want to do that on a voluntary base but

25 they needed from the authorities on both sides, guarantees, and an

Page 7439

1 escorted transport from the west to the east and way back by UNPROFOR.

2 Q. Witness, I have been thinking about a question. Since you have a

3 lot of experience, since you spent time at many places where there were

4 wars, civil wars, et cetera, this example that we have been discussing so

5 far, is it typical for a situation of civil war, or, perhaps, was this a

6 situation where, in order to implement the Vance-Owen Plan, these

7 conflicts simply could not be stopped, then, in the month of June?

8 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I don't know -- I'm not sure what the

9 question is. We've gone from his other involvement around the world in

10 other situations and now we're back to something about the Vance-Owen

11 Plan. I object to the form of the question. I don't know what the

12 question is.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, your question is very complicated

14 which will confuse not only the witness but also us. Simplify your

15 question and pose it in another way.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

17 Q. So Witness, to the best of your knowledge the situation in Mostar,

18 was it a typical situation for a civil war?

19 A. That's very hard to answer because you can't compare it with any

20 other place, but what I saw, and you are right, I saw some other places,

21 this was a very complicated but crazy situation for sure. If that helps

22 you.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

24 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, just so the record is clear, the

25 Prosecution does not concede in any way that this was only a civil war,

Page 7440

1 despite the fact that counsel might want to couch his questions that way.

2 Thank you.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I truly do not

5 understand this intervention made by my learned friend. It wasn't an

6 objection. It is simply the Prosecutor making a thesis of the OTP quite

7 clear to the witness. I have asked this witness of his opinion on the

8 basis of the experience he had had. At any rate, I thank you, sir, for

9 your answer.

10 Q. I simply asked you so that we would know, for example, whether in

11 Beirut the Christian and Muslim militias would allow each other to visit

12 each other's hospitals, to give assistance in terms of medical supplies

13 and things like that. This question did have a point, but at any rate, I

14 find your question -- your answer satisfactory.

15 Another question now. Did you notice that everybody was armed,

16 that each street had its own commander, that each village had its own

17 commander? To put it this way: That there were thousands and thousands

18 of big and small warlords on both sides.

19 A. I disagree.

20 Q. Tell me, please, why do you disagree? Did you manage, in your

21 work, in the course of your work, to notice any such things? And now

22 since you've expressed your disagreement, could you please be so kind as

23 to tell me why you disagree?

24 A. Because on both sides, there was an organisation, a good

25 organisation, and authorities claimed that they had the situation on their

Page 7441

1 own side under control.

2 Q. Witness, sir, in your reports and in the statement you made here,

3 it seems obvious that officers themselves were saying that they did not

4 have some units under their control.

5 A. Well, first, your question was speaking about thousands and

6 thousands. That's a lot.

7 Secondly, I made very clear that answering our questions by

8 saying, "It was maybe done by criminal elements we don't have under

9 control," of course that is an answer, but it doesn't mean that it's true.

10 Q. Thank you very much for having helped me once again. Of course,

11 when I said, "thousands of warlords, big and small," I meant the area that

12 you had passed through and where you were. Of course, perhaps in Mostar

13 and in that area, there could not have been thousands, but there were some

14 that no organisation managed to control. Did you manage to find that out

15 during the time you spent in the area?

16 A. Let me read your question once more, please.

17 Well, I'm only talking about the Mostar area, and we were dealing

18 with the official authorities. And of course I know there is a difference

19 between combatant and non-combatant. We were aware of people in the area

20 who were non-combatant but had influenced or influenced the situation over

21 there.

22 Q. Witness, sir, Colonel, I'm asking you this because I think that we

23 did not have the opportunity of discussing this very much. I think that

24 you are only the third person we have here who has had such remarkable

25 training as a person being trained at the Royal Dutch Academy.

Page 7442

1 How much time does it take to establish an army? If we were to

2 start today, if today were to be day one, with your knowledge and with

3 your experience, how much time would it take for you to say, right, this

4 is an army now?

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon, Your Honours,

6 perhaps I have not phrased this question very well.

7 Q. But for example, in 1992, if people say, "We have to fight," when

8 can they say this is a serious army? Is it an army that resembles the

9 Royal Dutch Army or the British army or some other army of some other

10 country? I think we need to clarify that situation. That's why I'm

11 putting this question.

12 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

14 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, I think we're getting far afield. I think

15 if defence counsel rightly want to put questions to this witness about the

16 chain of command concerning his client, that might be appropriate, and if

17 there is an assertion, based upon some foundation, that his client, Tuta,

18 did not have control over certain elements or something such as that, then

19 he can put those questions to this witness. But now we are talking in

20 broad generalities which I think, I submit, don't take us very far.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, we also believe that your question

22 is not that relevant to the very case. So would you please ask some

23 direct questions.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour. Let me just

25 respond to my learned friend. As for my client's place in the chain of

Page 7443

1 command, I'm expecting him to provide evidence to that effect, and it is

2 only then that I shall try to counter this through witnesses.

3 Q. So, Witness, can you give me a very brief answer: Was this an

4 organised army that you as a person coming from a western army, with all

5 the traditions that you have in the military, could you say, with all of

6 that in mind, that this was an organised army?

7 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, again -- excuse me. Again, Your Honour,

8 I object. Is he saying was this a NATO army? Was this an army by NATO

9 standards? By what standards are we talking about?

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that Mr. Krsnik is flouting this very

11 issue, but his question is not that proper. You have to rephrase your

12 question in a more specific way so that everybody knows what kind of army

13 you are talking about.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is very hard

15 because the Prosecution claims that this was an organised army and those

16 of us who lived there and who were actually members of this army, it is

17 very hard to qualify it as such. It cannot be compared to either the NATO

18 system or the Warsaw Pact system, for that matter, or the U.S. system.

19 The people simply organised themselves and went to war. So I don't know

20 how to frame my question and so I'm proceeding in a very cautious way.

21 Q. So in your opinion, did this army even approach any military

22 standards, either the NATO or Warsaw Pact, or can one say in that regard

23 that the HVO was an army?

24 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, before the witness replies, the

25 difficulty we're having is we don't know which army you're talking about.

Page 7444

1 You keep talking about "this army." Which is the army you're talking

2 about? If you clarify that, maybe the Witness can respond.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for your

4 intervention. I may have omitted but I was referring to the HVO. I may

5 have even said -- I think that I had started out discussing that.

6 A. Well, sir, when I'm talking about army, I'm talking about

7 combatants wearing uniforms. As you know, you can recognise them as a

8 member of such an organisation, and it's my impression that the HVO was

9 well organised as a military organisation.

10 Q. Was organised. And how did it function? That was my question.

11 Did it function as, let's say, a Dutch army?

12 A. You can't compare it, because the Dutch army was not in that

13 situation.

14 Q. Fine, let's move on. I was under the impression that I had asked

15 an easy question. Here, my colleague gave me an excellent idea. We can

16 compare the HVO and UNPROFOR. Were they in the same situation?

17 A. In my perspective, you can't compare this because they had a

18 complete other mission. So when you are talking about military

19 organisation, then you have to go a little bit further. It's not so easy

20 as you think that it is.

21 Q. Do you know how many trained officers were there in the HVO, the

22 ones who had completed officer training, either for commissioned or

23 enlisted officers?

24 A. We spoke to officers who had a regular training, and there were

25 officers who did the former Yugoslavian academy, military academy.

Page 7445

1 Q. Of course there were several of them, but my question was a

2 number. Of course, you are not in a position to know this.

3 Will you be so kind as to tell me whether you knew the

4 organisational structure of the HVO? What was the chain of command

5 pyramid there?

6 A. Well, it's all in my statement, and our original structure by

7 UNPROFOR which shows very well how it was organised.

8 Q. Witness, my intention was to ask you what UNPROFOR produced was

9 not what you produced. You may have been using it, and you may have

10 informed yourself of it. Is that correct? You personally, when you

11 contacted with people in Mostar over that month and a half, in that crazy

12 situation, as you described it, what was the chain of command there? With

13 whom could you talk? I mean, how did you understand who was in command

14 there?

15 A. Well, I told you yesterday who I talked to, so you know it. And

16 you know also who they were in the chain of command, I suppose. So when

17 you think that I can recall the exact structure of HVO at this moment,

18 then unfortunately I can't, but not at this moment after eight years. But

19 you can use the information of UNPROFOR, what was updated every day, and

20 very reliable also for us. By the way, we were actually -- what I told

21 before -- a political instrument and, of course, dealing with military

22 authorities, so we were more interested actually in the political issues.

23 Because we had to deal with military authorities, we were very well

24 informed about organisation and structure.

25 Q. Thank you for that answer. On the basis of your reports and your

Page 7446

1 statement to the OTP, my understanding was that you spoke to four or up to

2 five persons at the most. They included Bruno Stojic, Mr. Coric - one was

3 the Minister of Defence, the other one was in charge of the military

4 police - Puljic and Maric, and then you had a meeting with Mr. Prlic, who

5 was the president of the HVO, and Mr. Zubak, who was the vice-president;

6 is that correct?

7 A. Correct. There was a lot more, but that is what is mentioned in

8 the report, yes.

9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, could I make a suggestion to you. You may

10 refer to the Exhibit P532.1, which was a charter indicating the commander

11 chain, and the Prosecutor asked some questions to this witness about this

12 charter.

13 If you have any questions challenging this document, you are

14 entirely entitled to ask your question.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Well, then, let me start in this

16 way:

17 Q. Witness, tell me, yesterday the Prosecutor showed you a picture.

18 I'm going to show it to you again and I'm going to ask you some

19 questions.

20 This is Exhibit P36.1.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] With the kind assistance of the

22 usher, may the witness be shown this photograph.

23 Q. Witness, yesterday you gave evidence that you contacted Mr. Maric

24 the most. Is that correct?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 7447

1 Q. And you had the most meetings with him, you met with him even

2 daily, and you had one of the better cooperations with him, in your own

3 words.

4 A. We saw him many times because he was the spokesman of the HVO

5 headquarters for some time, and he was a member of the joint committee.

6 Q. In this photograph, you marked him with the number "1." Is that

7 correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Witness, if I were to tell you that this was not Stanko Maric,

10 what would you say to that? Are you 100 percent certain?

11 A. This is a man I saw many times, I spoke to, and by my knowledge,

12 it is Maric, Stanko Maric.

13 Q. Witness, this man is Mr. Vice Vukojevic. He is the president of

14 the Constitutional Court of Croatia.

15 A. Well, then, they look very alike, if that's the case. Maric was

16 bald-headed and looking like this man.

17 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry, could you clarify exactly who you say that

18 person is because normally it's not important in the transcript, the

19 spelling, but I think in this case we ought to know exactly who you say

20 that person that is. If you don't mind, would you spell out his name and

21 his title.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] His name is V-I-C-E, first name,

23 V-U-K-O-J-E -- V-I-C with the diacritic, for the interpreters,

24 V-U-K-O-J-E-V-I-C.

25 Q. In 1993, I don't know exactly what his position was.

Page 7448

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] It's not right still?

2 V-U-K-O-J-E-V-I-C. I'm told by my colleagues that now it has been

3 corrected. I don't know what his position was in 1993, but we will

4 provide that information, what it was in 1993. But for the last three

5 years, for sure he has been a Judge on the Constitutional Court of the

6 Republic of Croatia. And he was definitely a representative or member of

7 parliament of the Croatian parliament before that.

8 Q. Do you see the person next to Mr. Vukojevic, the one right next to

9 him? The one who is taller and who has a beard, next to the person to

10 whom you referred as Mr. Maric? Witness, you need to look at the picture.

11 I don't think that you can see it well on the monitor. So the first one.

12 A. I don't know him.

13 Q. Do you know who that is?

14 A. I don't know him.

15 Q. And you had never met him.

16 And you marked Mr. Andabak with number "2." Is that correct?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. Now, tell me, in your statement and in your reports, did you not

19 in several places -- in your reports it is in three places, that he was a

20 commander of the special units of the HVO?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Did you learn -- first let me ask you, do you know who Mr. Juka

23 was? What was his last name, if you know?

24 A. We learned that, as I stated yesterday, Juka.

25 Q. Yes, but his full name.

Page 7449

1 A. I'm very sorry, but I don't recall his full name at this moment.

2 Q. And do you know what his ethnic background was?

3 A. I think that he came before he went to Mostar from Sarajevo. But

4 you mean his ethnic background, I don't know.

5 Q. Did you hear that Mr. Arif Pasalic had him arrested and that he

6 issued an arrest warrant against him?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you know about a conflict that they had, that is, Mr. Pasalic

9 and Juka, that during the arrest, and that a grenade was tossed in a

10 container by Juka, and this container was in front of the army

11 headquarters? Did you know about this personal conflict that they had?

12 A. First, I don't know -- sorry. First, I don't know about which

13 period you are talking. But we were not aware of this story.

14 Q. Witness, I am referring to May 1993 but this may have been before

15 your arrival there, that is, the conflict between Juka. So I thought that

16 perhaps you had heard about this because everybody in Mostar knew about

17 it, so I thought that perhaps your interpreter may have told you about it.

18 Witness, let us move on. My next question is you said that you

19 were shot at from the blue building, that is, that a rocket was fired and

20 exploded 3 metres away from your car. Were you in the vehicle or were you

21 in the building when this explosion took place?

22 A. We were in the building.

23 Q. So from where did the fire come? And these are your assumptions

24 and your inferences, so can you tell us where did this shell or rocket

25 come from?

Page 7450

1 A. Not our assumptions, but that what we noticed, what we saw, and

2 the only possibility was from the blue bank building.

3 Q. And it could not have come from any other position?

4 A. No, sir. Impossible.

5 Q. How far was the blue bank building from the Bulevar?

6 A. Are you talking about the hit, sniper hit, or the rocket?

7 Projectile.

8 Q. Projectile.

9 A. Very close, very close, because it was one of the -- I think also

10 old school building where we had previous the joint committee meetings,

11 and that was very close. Actually, more or less in the confrontation

12 line.

13 Q. There were buildings at the confrontation line that were

14 controlled by the Muslims along the Bulevar, and most of them actually

15 along the Bulevar, along the line of confrontation, were controlled by the

16 Muslims, and the blue bank building was a very small one. It was very

17 close by. And let me show you a picture so that I make it easier for you.

18 A. Well, you don't have to show me the picture because when you are

19 talking about the incident with the projectile, that was on the western

20 side of the blue bank building. We knew the positions on the west bank of

21 the Muslims quite well, which buildings they were occupying. It was

22 impossible to have line of sight to the place where our car was located

23 and where the impact was found by us, noticed by us. So your suggestion

24 that it could be the other side is not correct.

25 Q. No, my suggestion, Witness, was not that the other side had fired

Page 7451

1 it. You may have misunderstood me. I simply wanted to say -- actually to

2 ask whether you were 100 percent certain of it or whether there is any

3 space open for discussion of it. I just wanted an honest answer from you,

4 so I respect your answer as you've given it.

5 Now, as regards the sniping, are you 100 percent sure that it was

6 also fired by the HVO, or that it came from the west side? In other

7 words, did you ascertain where the shot had come from?

8 A. Actually, by the position of the car, by the angle of the bullet

9 and the place it hit the car, it's by line of sight only possible from the

10 blue bank building. So when you are talking about my military experience,

11 that was the only possibility by my military knowledge of such a

12 situation.

13 Q. Of course, and I thank you. But when you heard that hit, and we

14 can go back to your statement, but I think you recall it, you gave the

15 statement in August, you stated that you had stopped the car, come out,

16 looked at it.

17 A. Well, we passed first the Tito bridge, looked for a safe place,

18 and then inspected where the impact was. That's correct.

19 Q. Tell me, in your experience, was a special war also waged in

20 Mostar while you were there?

21 A. I don't know what you mean by "special war".

22 Q. Well, everything that a special war entails; misinformation,

23 counterintelligence, confusing the enemy, false information and so on, so

24 we all know what "special war" means.

25 A. Well, that's a problem, I think, because I never heard of a

Page 7452

1 special war, that -- you have to be specific, and maybe it's by a lack of

2 knowledge about the right terminology. But can you explain me what you

3 mean by "special war"?

4 Q. Of course, Witness. This is -- these were the terms that we used

5 in our schools. When you say "special war", it's a war that is waged

6 mostly by intelligence services which was to confuse the enemy, to plant

7 misinformation, deception, all kinds of things that have been done during

8 a war, unfortunately, throughout the world.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I see, Your Honours, that we have

10 already passed the break time, and it's time for break, so I'm going to

11 get to the point.

12 Q. If you were to analyse what you learned from Arif Pasalic, could

13 it have been a part of a special war that all the information that was

14 presented to you was to present the Muslim side in as favourable light as

15 possible and to denigrate or otherwise harm the other side?

16 A. We never got that impression.

17 Q. Thank you very much.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have actually gone

19 past 11.00, and I apologise.

20 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Usher, will you show the witness out of the room

21 first.

22 So, we will resume at 11.35.

23 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

Page 7453

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Witness, I think that we broke off when we were discussing

3 questions related to special warfare, so I would like to proceed from

4 there. Tell me, during the month of June, you were in Mostar every day,

5 and your interpreter was with you all the time. Is that correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Would you agree with me that she was one of your major sources?

8 At that time, I mean, during the month of June?

9 A. She was a part of the team.

10 Q. Would you agree with me that it is the duty of an interpreter to

11 interpret, not to be a part of a team in the same way in which you were

12 part of a team and Mr. Jesus?

13 A. I think you misunderstood me. I mean a part of the team as

14 interpreter. So I agree the only thing she did was interpretation,

15 translating.

16 Q. Also, she provided information to you, the information that she

17 wanted to provide to you. Had she not provided you with that information,

18 you would not have had it. Right?

19 A. She told us, when we asked her about the situation during our

20 absence in Mostar, sometimes what was happening, and most of the time, she

21 was warned or told by other people what happened during our absence.

22 That's correct.

23 Q. Thank you, Witness. I think my question was clear. Had she told

24 you that she knew nothing, then you would not have been at a few

25 locations, and you would not have known about some of the cases that you

Page 7454

1 did write reports on and that we're going to refer to right now. Isn't

2 that correct?

3 Let me help you with this. She was the one who took you to the

4 apartment that you discussed yesterday with the Prosecutor. She told you

5 that the Ministry of Defence is Mr. Naletilic's office. She took you to

6 the position where allegedly there was this family, Alikafic, if I'm not

7 mistaken, this burned house that you never found. Is that correct?

8 A. Well, it's partly correct. The last case, for instance, she was

9 only translating the note that was brought to us through an individual on

10 the west bank, and then we drove to that location. Talking about the

11 apartment, she told us about the apartment, and the next step of us was,

12 of course, to visit the place because, in such a case, she was a source

13 confirming information we got from others, and we only tried to confirm

14 and get from different sources as much as possible information about the

15 same events.

16 Q. For example, this apartment that you went to see, did you find out

17 whose apartment this was, when this event had occurred, which army was

18 involved? Was it perhaps an event that had taken place several months

19 before that? Were there Serbs perhaps in that apartment? What was the

20 name of that family who had done that? Did you find all of this out

21 personally, or did you rely on the information that was provided to you by

22 your interpreter?

23 A. No. We went to there because she was tipped, and for instance,

24 the door was opened by the next neighbours and they told the story. So

25 they saw what happened and they heard what happened. So it was from

Page 7455

1 firsthand, actually, at the spot.

2 Q. Who were these neighbours?

3 A. Well, as far as I have details, you find it in my report. I can't

4 recall that at this moment, of course. You will understand that, after

5 eight years.

6 Q. Certainly, Witness. But the name of that family is not in your

7 reports either, and what surprises me is that they have the keys to the

8 apartment; I mean the neighbours. If they were ethnic Muslims, how come

9 they had not been expelled, too? I just want to say to you, Witness -- I

10 mean, the Trial Chamber always cautions me that I should perhaps explain

11 why I'm putting a particular question.

12 Did you, perhaps, think along the following lines, that all of

13 this was staged for your benefit so that you would send a report to that

14 effect?

15 A. No, we never had that impression.

16 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

18 MR. SCOTT: I think counsel is correct, that Your Honours, and

19 particularly Judge Clark, has sometimes tried to assist counsel in putting

20 his questions. I may be mistaken myself but I think the proper way to put

21 this question would be, "We put it to you that it's the Defence case that

22 the ransacking of this apartment was staged." And if counsel has a

23 bona fide basis to assert such a thing and put it to this witness, then

24 it's proper to do so. But to ask pure speculation is not the proper way

25 to put the question, I don't think, and I defer absolutely to Judge Clark

Page 7456

1 on this.

2 JUDGE CLARK: I agree entirely.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, it is pure speculation, Mr. Krsnik, but the

4 witness has answered this question. You may move on.

5 JUDGE CLARK: Can I just say something, Mr. Krsnik. There are a

6 lot of facts asserted by you in the question that you put or the statement

7 that you made. First of all, what is the source of the information which

8 you just put to the Court that the neighbours who confirmed the story

9 which was being investigated were, in fact, ethnic Muslims? How do you

10 know that? So can I take it that you're putting questions to this witness

11 purely on a speculative basis and with no information behind you and no

12 instructions?

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I do beg your

14 pardon. Perhaps my question was, indeed, a bit confused. In the report I

15 did not find the names of the neighbours, and the gentleman did not put

16 down the names of the neighbours, and the source is primarily the lady

17 interpreter. I just wanted to ask the witness what his personal knowledge

18 was, who had been in that apartment? Whether he found out about that

19 personally. When had that happened, when had the shooting taken place,

20 the firing into the ceiling. Is this personal knowledge that our witness

21 has or are these speculations that he simply espoused and then put into

22 his report. Nothing else, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, it goes much further than that. This

24 witness has given evidence of inferences which he drew from facts that he

25 found, that a complaint was made, a note was received about the fact that

Page 7457

1 some people had been burned to death. He went to the area, he found that

2 soldiers wearing HVO uniforms were posting on trees obituary notes

3 relating to these people who had died. Yes, that's what he said. So the

4 inference can be drawn that these people did die. And you are now

5 saying -- you're going much further and saying that -- you're asking him

6 did it occur to him that these deaths never in fact occurred and this

7 whole thing was stage-managed? That's what the transcript says and that's

8 what I heard, that the whole -- and that's what Mr. Scott is referring to,

9 that the deaths were stage-managed. What are you in fact saying, Mr.

10 Krsnik?

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that this is a

12 major misunderstanding. I'm talking about two different events. I have

13 now restricted to myself to the apartment where bullets were found in the

14 ceiling that were photographed by the witness. I exclusively referred to

15 that event. Now I had intended to move on to this other event, this other

16 event that you had just referred to, and now I want to move on to that

17 line of questioning where allegedly a family had been torched in their own

18 apartment, and indeed, I thought after completing my questions related to

19 the first event, and I asked whether this had happened a year ago, whether

20 it was perhaps Serbs that were involved, et cetera, that is what I had

21 meant, and these were questions related to the first event. I did not

22 move on to the second event at all.

23 So was this ethnic cleansing, that these people had been evicted?

24 This is the first event.

25 JUDGE CLARK: You didn't make it clear. You're talking about

Page 7458

1 going to visit the scene. I thought you were talking about the more

2 serious event and it's not clear. But one way or the other, the principle

3 is the same, Mr. Krsnik. If you put questions to this witness, suggesting

4 to him that he failed to investigate a setup, and you suggest to him that

5 it was a setup, you must have information to back up that suggestion. It

6 cannot be purely speculative. Do you understand the point that the Court

7 is making? That you can't just throw out a question on the basis of

8 something that could have happened when you don't have information to back

9 it up.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

11 The background of this question was from my point of view, and I thought

12 that that is the way I started it, that the interpreter, as I said at the

13 very outset, and the witness told me the beginning also that they had not

14 checked out her background, and the witness said no, and I asked whether

15 she was perhaps a member of a particular service and the witness said that

16 they did not check this, and they did not know, and then my last questions

17 had to do with the special war. And the background to this question was

18 that the interpreter, perhaps, might have been used in special warfare.

19 Now, this is the background of my question, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Do you have information in relation to that or are

21 you just fishing? Do you have specific information that this interpreter

22 was engaged in the war by being a member of some secret services?

23 You see, Mr. Krsnik, counsel must never personalize the

24 cross-examination. Your view is irrelevant to this Court. We don't want

25 to know what you think. You have to act on the instructions of your

Page 7459

1 client and on the information which you have and the case you are going to

2 make. This trial is not about what Mr. Krsnik thinks could have happened

3 in Mostar. We're not conducting an inquiry in relation to your political

4 or other views.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no political

6 views. I just have information. Of course, when the time comes for

7 presenting our case, we will try to show that the Muslim secret service

8 always tried to reach international organisations, and I think that we

9 have seen documents, too, that these secret services tried to get their

10 people in, especially interpreters.

11 This is not the Krsnik case; this is based on the information I

12 have received and that I shall provide to this Court. I asked this

13 witness quite fairly about whether there were any checks that had been

14 made because it seems quite clear, Your Honour, that this interpreter was

15 the main source of information for this witness. And this is how I

16 understood it.

17 As for my own political views, Your Honour, I have never, ever

18 propounded them in this courtroom nor do I have any, for that matter. I

19 think that I have already referred to this before this Court recess, that

20 I was never a member of any political party and, notably, I said that I

21 never intend to become a member of any political party.

22 Because my basic personal belief is that a decent person cannot be

23 involved in politics.

24 JUDGE CLARK: I hope for your sake this isn't going to be

25 transmitted in your country.

Page 7460

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Since there's not a single journalist

2 here from my country, and they are not following this trial at all, they

3 usually transmit only what has to do with witnesses. It's the Muslim

4 television that has been showing this particular footage time and again,

5 this witness and what you said in relation to that. Unfortunately,

6 nothing else is being transmitted from this courtroom.

7 At any rate, I thank you for your suggestions and I shall

8 certainly abide by them.

9 Q. Then my next question would be -- I mean, now we are moving on to

10 this other event when you got that note from that child, when you were

11 going to check what had truly happened to this family that had allegedly

12 been torched in their house, the house had been torched as well, and then

13 you never found that house. Yesterday, you said that you saw HVO soldiers

14 that were putting notices, death notices, on trees. Tell me, why did you

15 not ask these soldiers or the neighbours or anybody where this house was

16 and what had actually happened?

17 A. Well, we did, but we couldn't find.

18 Q. I beg your pardon. In your statement, you said something

19 different. Just give me some time to find the exact page.

20 In your statement, you said that you didn't want to ask Croats

21 because it was primarily Croats who were living there and you didn't want

22 to ask them for that reason because you were sure that you would not get

23 an answer. Let me just find this in your statement now, the statement

24 that you gave to the OTP in the month of August.

25 Here it is, this is page 16 in the English version and page 15 in

Page 7461

1 the Croatian language, the last paragraph. It's the last paragraph, and

2 it says -- oh, page 16, the second paragraph on page 16. It starts in the

3 following way: "We drove to the neighbourhood of Ilici that is mentioned

4 in this note. That part of West Mostar was far from the front line and

5 mainly inhabited by Croats."

6 Have you found it?

7 A. That is correct, sir, because we are talking here about the spot

8 and the location where we were looking for. So this is correct. But I'm

9 talking about --

10 Q. No, no, let's go on. I do beg your pardon for having interrupted

11 you. We could not ask anybody where the burned house was, and we also did

12 not expect the Croats to tell us where it was. In the quarter, we found

13 the obituaries of this family on the trees. As a matter of fact, we saw

14 the HVO putting these obituaries on the trees. Our interpreter went out

15 of the car to read the obituaries and confirmed that it was about the

16 death of the family Alikafic. So you did not want to ask the Croats and

17 the interpreter confirmed this to you. You personally did not see this.

18 You did not even find out which family this was. You mean you personally

19 did not. Right?

20 A. I think we are talking about different things. When I am saying

21 "confirmation," it means that we tried to figure out also in other places

22 in West Mostar if they know something about this family. This is on the

23 spot, and what is written here is what happened actually.

24 Q. So you assert that you did not expect the Croats to tell you where

25 the house was. Obviously, you knew this from the very outset. "We could

Page 7462

1 not ask anybody where the burned house, and we also did not expect the

2 Croats to tell us where it was."

3 A. There were at the spot no people to ask. Then only the HVO

4 soldiers.

5 Q. I think that the two versions, the English and the Croat versions

6 of your statement, are identical here. Did you say what is stated here?

7 A. I don't know if it's identical because I don't know your text.

8 But my text here is clear.

9 Q. Well, I just read to you twice what it says. Is it identical?

10 A. Well, I still don't understand what your point is actually. I

11 think it's clear what happened there. It describes exactly what we did,

12 and that's it.

13 Q. Well, exactly. You did nothing. You did not establish what had

14 happened, you did not find out what happened to them, you did not find out

15 what their name was.

16 A. Well, we found out that the name was on the piece of paper.

17 Q. Which was confirmed to you by your interpreters. You personally

18 did not see this obituary, nor did you read it?

19 A. Well, I don't read the local language over there. That's correct.

20 Q. Yes, thank you. Now, why did you not ask the HVO soldiers?

21 A. Well, I think that we were not able to do that at that moment. I

22 don't recall it, but you have to understand that not everyone was willing

23 to speak with the man in white. Do you understand what I mean?

24 Q. [In English] Yeah, yeah. [Interpretation] Of course, Witness.

25 Will you please tell me now and confirm to me that you had a

Page 7463

1 meeting with Mr. Slavko Puljic who was in the -- on the staff of the HVO

2 armed forces. Did you ever talk to this man?

3 A. Several times.

4 Q. Tell me, did he also warn you about the special warfare and that

5 he had information that your vehicles were stolen, were being stolen and

6 used for sabotage operations and then the HVO was being accused of

7 conducting them?

8 A. Can you be specific because --

9 Q. Did Mr. Puljic tell you and did you write in your report, and

10 there's a detailed report on what transpired in that meeting with Mr.

11 Puljic, and your statement also contains it, that Mr. Puljic informed you

12 that four vehicles -- four UNPROFOR vehicles had been stolen, with special

13 markings and everything, and that these vehicles were used for sabotage

14 and terrorist acts against the HVO?

15 A. Well, if it's stated in my statement, in my report, then of course

16 he told us that. You are talking about UNPROFOR cars. We were not

17 UNPROFOR, of course, but ECMM.

18 Q. Yes, I know, Witness. Here in your statement, it is -- in the

19 Croatian version, it's page 17. In English, I assume it's going to be

20 page 18 but let me give you the reference of the report. Sorry, it's on

21 page 17. That is, you already had a report and you were surprised that

22 Mr. Puljic did not know this, that is, you had the report that four

23 UNPROFOR vehicles or your vehicles -- I don't know which one -- but you're

24 referring to UNPROFOR vehicles, had been stolen by the Mujahedins,

25 car-jacked, they were, in Jablanica.

Page 7464

1 A. You are mixing the facts now as well as Mr. Puljic did at the

2 time. By our information, we didn't know about four UNPROFOR cars, we

3 only knew, of course, our own car who was hijacked in the Jablanica area

4 from our team M1, the team in Jablanica, and that is exactly also what is

5 stated here in my statement.

6 Q. For the Trial Chamber, can you clarify this; your vehicles were

7 marked in a special way?

8 A. I explained that yesterday, yes, sir. We had nothing to do with

9 UNPROFOR. We were marked with very big orange letters "ECMM," and

10 UNPROFOR, of course, was in blue, marked "UNPROFOR." And we are talking

11 about complete other vehicles. Our vehicle was only one hijacked and

12 stolen in the north, and you are talking about for -- let's say Mr. Puljic

13 was talking about four, I suppose, jeeps or maybe APC, I don't know, four

14 vehicles of UNPROFOR, and we verified that at the Spanish battalion within

15 the chain of command of UNPROFOR.

16 Q. Tell me, who had stolen your vehicle in the north, that is, your

17 monitoring mission's vehicle?

18 A. Well, you can read that in the report. That was not our vehicle

19 so we were not involved. We only know this whole story from our team M1.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 I consulted with my colleagues, and following my cross-examination

22 and if I omit something, they flag those omissions to me.

23 Did you learn eventually who had stolen the vehicles -- sorry, I'm

24 talking about your car, the monitoring mission car.

25 A. You mean from team M1?

Page 7465

1 Q. Team M1, yes.

2 A. There is a report about that, so the details I have to read for

3 you then, the details. Let's make clear, there was a daily report and a

4 special report about this event, but that's not in your -- but I know that

5 there is a special report. In my files, there is a special report about

6 the incident in the Jablanica area, what happened to our M1 team, yeah,

7 that's correct.

8 Q. We don't have that report here, do we?

9 A. Well, I don't know. I can't know.

10 Q. I only have your report in which you refer to it and that this

11 vehicle had been stolen by the mujahedins. That's all I have here.

12 A. That is what you see. The text here is that what you have, I

13 suppose, but I don't know.

14 Q. Fine. Tell me, what was your communication with M1 team? Was it

15 daily or did you exchange information before filing reports with your

16 centre in Zenica?

17 A. Well, when the M1 team was located, through the week in Jablanica,

18 and came at least once a week, depending on the situation between

19 Jablanica and Mostar, down to the CC in Siroki Brijeg.

20 Q. I'm just waiting for my colleague to find this particular report

21 of the M1 team.

22 Witness, I must apologise to you. We have 543.1 exhibit, which is

23 not in the binder we received from the Prosecutor yesterday, but it is in

24 the binders which we had received. That's P543.1, sorry.

25 I'm also going to ask several questions to help us clarify this

Page 7466

1 particular exhibit.

2 You have the document. Witness, let me ask you to please clarify

3 for us the heading. Is this the report from Zenica that is going to the

4 headquarters of the ECMM? Can you help us? It's a special report but I

5 don't know who is sending it to whom.

6 A. This is very interesting because I never saw this. I never saw

7 this. I'm talking about the special report, ECMM report, what our team

8 made, and this is complete something else. This is command of the 1st

9 light assault battalion military police in Mostar. I'm not talking about

10 that.

11 Q. Then you were given a wrong document. I apologise. We don't have

12 the same documents.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [In English] P431.

14 Q. I think we have the same document now, Witness. Can you clarify

15 for us what kind of special report is this? I see that there's the Mostar

16 province, the Zenica province -- yes, it starts with the Travnik province,

17 and then Mostar province, and then Zenica province. Of course, we're

18 interested in the Mostar province.

19 A. Well, let me -- sorry. Let me explain to you first that this is

20 not a special report from CC Mostar and from the M1 team what exactly

21 describes the hijacking of the car. It isn't. Let me explain you the

22 first page, and that makes clear where it comes from. It comes from the

23 head of the regional centre, Zenica. So this is the French ambassador at

24 that time who is responsible for this summary of his whole region. And

25 one of the communications centres within his region was Mostar. So this

Page 7467

1 is not our report.

2 Q. But in order for your boss in Zenica to be able to create a

3 summary, he needed to receive reports from various teams in the region.

4 So probably your boss then compiled a summary and forwarded it -- I mean,

5 your boss in Zenica - that was Mr. Thebeault, if I'm not mistaken - he

6 would receive reports from M1, M2, M3 teams in the field, and then he

7 would compile this summary and send it onward. How else would he have

8 known about the situation in Mostar?

9 A. Absolutely, you are right, but this is sent to the head of mission

10 in Zagreb, as you see, and it's his responsibility what he writes in his

11 report. So we don't have anything to do with him. We only gave him our

12 reports, and he is free, and it's up to him what he writes to the head of

13 mission. Right?

14 Q. [In English] Right. [Interpretation] We will go back to that, but

15 we just found a document that refers to the mujahedins, and I hope that

16 Madam Registrar has found it.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies. I had

18 started on one document, and since the witness reminded me that the

19 incident in question was a car-jacking, I wanted to bring in a document

20 which further clarifies that incident, and I did not mean to create any

21 confusion.

22 Q. So Witness, since I already asked you and I was advised by my

23 colleagues that since we were dealing with one document, perhaps we should

24 finish dealing with one document at a time. So my apologies to you, too,

25 if I created any confusion in your mind.

Page 7468

1 So let us finish off with the report of the head of mission. What

2 I wanted to ask and what refers to the Mostar region or province here,

3 were they called provinces because of the Vance-Owen plan?

4 A. Sorry, sir, which document are you talking about? Which one of

5 the two?

6 Q. It's my fault. It's my fault, Witness, and I apologise to you. I

7 went back to the first document because I thought that -- I thought it

8 more sensible to finish dealing with that first document. Then we will

9 move on to the document to which I referred subsequently.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. It's my

11 fault.

12 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, now, do you want us to --

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] 431. 431 is the one that I would

14 like to finish dealing with. We started dealing with it, and I thought it

15 better to finish with it, and I apologise to everyone.

16 Q. What I'm interested in in regard of this report, it's on page 3,

17 the last sentence, it is the Mostar province, which states -- [In

18 English]: "Committed by Croats..." Sorry. "Committed by Croats

19 irregulars in the nearby villages of Sovici, Doljani burnt out by the

20 Vlado group." Vlado in this case is a given name rather than the word for

21 the government in Croatian, which is also similar; it's Vlada.

22 Is this the summary that has been compiled here based on the

23 reports received by the M1 or M2 teams which then Mr. Thebault could

24 summarise?

25 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, can you refer to which part of the

Page 7469

1 document we're supposed to be looking at because neither Judge Liu or I

2 can find it.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise. I was reading from

4 Document 431, page 3. There's no Croatian translation of this; it's only

5 in English. And the ERN number is 00594704.

6 Q. It is the last line of the Mostar province report. Following

7 that, there will be the report marked 3, which is the Zenica province. I

8 don't know if you were able to find it now.

9 A. Can you repeat the question, please.

10 Q. Yes, I'm just waiting for Their Honours to find the relevant

11 portion.

12 JUDGE CLARK: Can I just say, Mr. Krsnik, what I'm looking for is

13 something in that report that's relevant to the hijacking of a car. Isn't

14 that what I'm supposed to be looking for?

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is the Exhibit 431.

16 It is the Exhibit 431, and the car-jack report is Exhibit 485. What I was

17 referring to was the Exhibit 431, page 3.

18 JUDGE CLARK: Referring to what event?

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] These -- this is a description of the

20 events in the Mostar province, region. And the sentence that I had read

21 was the last sentence that refers to the Mostar province in that report.


23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My question was addressed to the

24 witness.

25 Q. These reports regarding the Mostar province -- I mean I was only

Page 7470

1 interested in this last statement from the report. I just wanted to ask

2 the witness, this is a joint report by M1 from Jablanica and M2 from

3 Mostar. Were Ambassador Thebault's sources the reports of these teams? I

4 mean, in order to verify this document, right?

5 A. Well, in principle, he got the information by our CC reporting

6 system, but it's very hard for me, and you will understand that, sir, that

7 I can't give comments on reports I didn't wrote, were not written by one

8 of us. And we are also not responsible on this level about what is

9 written in this report. So it's hard for me to give comments on that.

10 But in principle, from our region, from CC Mostar, he got the information

11 he used for his interpretation of the situation, that's correct.

12 Q. Thank you for that answer. That's precisely what I had intended

13 to ask you. I am satisfied with your answer. If it had to do with the

14 Mostar province, you would be the one who would have to provide

15 information about this. Thank you.

16 And now we are going to slow down a bit. We can now move on to

17 Document 485, which is right in front of you. Document 485, page 10.

18 Page 10, that's what it says in the upper right-hand corner. M1,

19 Jablanica, and then CC Mostar. Is that correct? That page, I mean.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Does this give a description of what happened? I think that it

22 was a matter of kidnapping your vehicle, looting, et cetera. Is that

23 what's described here?

24 A. Well, it seems to describe what happened, but this is still not

25 the M1 special report. This is also not coming from CC Mostar.

Page 7471

1 Q. Number 1, special report, right?

2 A. That's correct, but that covers more subjects than the special

3 report I'm talking about. The special report I'm talking about is a

4 special report made by one of the members of that team. And he describes

5 exactly what happened, and it is not this report.

6 Q. It also has to do with theft, kidnapping, et cetera, so this is a

7 different event altogether. That means that there were several

8 occurrences of this nature; that is to say, thefts of money from your

9 teams, I mean, if I understand you correctly?

10 A. Well, when you want to stick to this event, you need, I think, to

11 have the basic document to get a very clear picture of what happened.

12 Q. I absolutely agree with you. However, unfortunately, I haven't

13 got this document, so I've tried to do my best with the documents I have.

14 This special report I have here refers to that -- I mean, if you've read

15 it, you will see it that it says that the members of your team were

16 robbed, et cetera, if I'm not mistaken, by the BiH army or rather members

17 of the BH army in that area.

18 A. Well, there are some facts in this short part what I recognise as

19 being in the special report of the team. But you have to compare it

20 because I think that the special report by the team member is the most

21 valid one when you want to know what happened actually.

22 Q. I agree with you.

23 My final question, Witness -- I hope that I've understood you

24 properly. What you can confirm are the CC Mostar reports, right, that is

25 what you can confirm in the sense of your own reports. I mean, those that

Page 7472












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts. Pages 7472 to 7491.













Page 7492

1 you can confirm as being authentic reports that are your own, the CC

2 Mostar reports?

3 A. Well, I think to clarify the situation, my reports and my

4 statement has to do with M2, the team in Mostar. This is -- or the

5 special report by M1 is written by M1, and I can't comment on such a

6 report because I was not a part of the team. So I hope that you

7 understand that I want to stick to my own products.

8 Q. By all means, Witness. That's precisely what I have been trying

9 to say. Perhaps we in the courtroom think a bit differently from you

10 soldiers. You have to say certain things in court, and I have to put

11 questions to you in order to get these answers. So you can confirm the

12 authenticity only of the CC Mostar reports, or rather concerning places

13 where you were, right?

14 A. Well, I do, but you can see it because it's written on top that

15 it's from the ECMM mission, it's a report of the ECMM mission. So no

16 doubt about that.

17 Q. Certainly. You see, through you, Witness -- I'm sure the Trial

18 Chamber will allow me to explain this to you -- certain documents were

19 being introduced through you. So we can only introduce those documents

20 that you confirm as being authentic. So perhaps the Defence is going to

21 call some of your co-workers in order to verify some documents if my

22 colleague, the Prosecutor, doesn't do it before me. So thank you for your

23 patience and for your answers.

24 Let me go back.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

Page 7493

1 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I have been quite patient for some time

2 but I'm afraid that there may be some mischaracterisation here unless I

3 make a comment on this last point for the record.

4 This witness, I submit, respectfully, has never said that he is

5 not in a position to authenticate, for instance, other ECMM documents.

6 What he has been careful to say, and I submit properly so, is to not

7 speculate about the content of the reports of -- other teams' reports.

8 But I fear at some future date we may hear from counsel that this witness

9 has said something about not being able to confirm the authenticity of a

10 number of ECMM documents. I submit, Your Honours, that that's not what

11 this witness has said. He has, in fact, just indicated a moment ago that

12 he can clearly corroborate that particular document. It's clearly an ECMM

13 report from the head of RC Zenica, Ambassador Thebault, and he said that.

14 And it's not fair to the witness or to the record to suggest otherwise.

15 Thank you.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, your remarks is recorded correctly in the

17 transcript.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, of course I don't want

19 to take up Court time, and I don't want to create a certain kind of

20 atmosphere in this courtroom because I see that we are all a bit

21 over-saturated. This was not my understanding of what the witness had

22 said. I have dwelled on this subject for quite some time with the

23 distinguished witness. I think that all of this has been recorded in the

24 transcript, and I don't want to engage in any kind of repetition

25 because -- so I disagree with what the Prosecutor just said, but after

Page 7494

1 all, it is for you to judge, so let me move on.

2 Q. Witness, we shall move on. Your time is precious as well.

3 Have you ever seen Mr. Mladen Naletilic in the Ministry of Defence

4 in Mostar?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you ever see his name on any door in the ministry. You

7 personally, have you ever seen that?

8 A. Negative, sir.

9 Q. So the belief that his -- that he might have an office in this

10 building comes from your interpreter. Is that right?

11 A. That was one of the sources.

12 Q. All right.

13 A. But it was --

14 Q. Thank you.

15 A. -- it was confirmed by others.

16 Q. Tell me, please. These others who confirmed this, they saw my

17 client's name on a door in the Ministry of Defence?

18 A. I can't answer this question. I don't know it.

19 Q. Thank you. Please, yesterday you testified about an event that

20 took place in Mostar on the 30th of June, that is to say, when the BH army

21 launched a major offensive when they attacked Bijelo Polje, the northern

22 camps, Sjeverni Logor, and they were preparing to attack Rastani, which

23 they indeed did two days later, so this was a comprehensive military

24 action on the 30th of June. Are you aware of that?

25 A. We heard that on the west side but we were not able to check it

Page 7495

1 because our freedom of movement was by the first checkpoint denied.

2 Q. Weren't you in Mostar on the 30th of June?

3 A. That's correct, but we came not further than the hospital, as you

4 could read in the daily report. And then we went to the place where the

5 interpreter was living, and that was all. The rest was impossible. The

6 access to, for instance, the east side.

7 Q. Would it be fair if you confirmed to me that when such major

8 military operations are involved, that the side that you are on should

9 take care of your security in your capacity of guest, observer? I mean,

10 what would be strange if they took care of your security and safety?

11 Imagine what would have happened had something happened to you?

12 A. Let me make this very clear: Freedom of movement had nothing to

13 do by taking care of security, in this case, of our team. In fact, we

14 were responsible for our security, so they had to let us through.

15 Q. Had something happened to you, Heaven forbid - and thank God

16 nothing happened to you - who would be responsible? If something happened

17 to your team - thank God nothing did in this war chaos - who would be

18 responsible?

19 A. ECMM, sir, and common sense by the team members.

20 Q. Oh, all right. Thank you for your answer. So when this military

21 operation was taking place, you testified yesterday that you encountered

22 Mr. Andabak, that he was excited. Tell me, if such large-scale military

23 operations were underway, is it strange that soldiers should be excited? I

24 mean, they could get killed any minute. They go into these operations

25 every day.

Page 7496

1 A. Not at that spot, sir. That spot was HVO controlled, the west

2 side. He was excited and angry because he didn't expect us to be there.

3 Q. That is your arbitrary conclusion. Can you agree with me on that,

4 that is what you inferred?

5 A. That was -- that is what I observed, that is what I saw.

6 Q. Yes, well, wasn't all of Mostar a war zone?

7 A. What I said before, there was some parts well controlled by HVO.

8 Q. Witness, how many times did you meet with Mr. Bruno Stojic,

9 Minister of Defence, in your report I think it says three or four times

10 that you had two lengthier conversations. Is that correct?

11 A. I think at least four times.

12 Q. When you met him in Siroki Brijeg, you wrote a very long report on

13 his viewpoints and you found out from him, if not then on 30th, what

14 actually had happened on the 30th of June in Mostar. As a matter of

15 fact, you included this sentence: "Our assessment was that Bruno Stojic

16 takes the military and political situation very seriously." That is your

17 statement on page 21, I think, in your version. "In my opinion, the HVO

18 did not -- was not concerned about the situation before, but now they

19 really were worried." Then you got a complete military picture of the

20 military operation that was taken by the BH army on the 30th, they took

21 all of Bijelo Polje, the hydroelectric power plant, Rastani, and they were

22 preparing to penetrate the centre of Mostar, and I am going to find your

23 original report for you, in addition to this statement.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, what's your question, Mr. Krsnik? You have to

25 ask a question.

Page 7497

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I was waiting for the witness to read

2 this.

3 Q. Tell me, is this --

4 A. You are talking about page 20?

5 Q. Of the Croat translation. In English, it is page 21, the entire

6 page refers to your meeting with the Defence minister, Mr. Bruno Stojic.

7 You met on the terrace of a restaurant in Siroki Brijeg.

8 A. What do I have to read? Especially what do you refer to from that

9 page?

10 Q. No, sir. I read something, and it's only fair for you to read

11 this together with me. That's why I meant that you should have a look at

12 this page and read it. I thought that you would read it yourself.

13 A. I'm ready for your question.

14 Q. Did Mr. Bruno Stojic make this military statement, so were you

15 informed about the complete military situation in Mostar as of the 30th of

16 June? Did Mr. Bruno Stojic inform you about it or not?

17 A. Without any doubt, because this is my statement, and it comes from

18 my daily reports. I made it myself, so... Positive.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

20 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President --

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] What's strange about this?

22 MR. SCOTT: I thought counsel was going there, but if it assists,

23 it's Exhibit P497 is the report of that day which covers this

24 conversation.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

Page 7498

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, first I read out from

2 the statement that the witness made to the OTP, and now I have document

3 497 in front of me. In the statement he made to the OTP, Your Honours,

4 the witness extensively referred to this document.

5 Q. As for this military and political situation, was it explained to

6 you as well by Mr. Jadranko Prlic at the meeting you had with him when he

7 was president of the HVO, I think this was on the 2nd of August, 1993?

8 A. Well, he made a statement that covers also the concern at that

9 moment. And you can read that in the daily report.

10 Q. Tell me, please, when speaking to the mayor of Siroki Brijeg,

11 Mr. -- well, you called him Ivo Culic, did you get a complete picture --

12 I see this in your report so I'm just asking you for confirmation -- how

13 many refugees there are in Siroki Brijeg, what kind of difficulties

14 they're facing, and that six Muslim refugee families live together with

15 Croat families.

16 A. This is what he told us, yeah, that we were always verifying to

17 our best knowledge, verifying this kind of information from other sources,

18 too.

19 Q. So did you check this piece of information?

20 A. Well, we tried to check it, of course, but was hard to do that at

21 that time, at that moment.

22 Q. And did you hear of the Muslims having any kind of problems in

23 Siroki Brijeg? Did you hear about that personally or from several

24 sources?

25 A. [Previous translation continues]...

Page 7499

1 Q. Point 8, I see that you usually give assessments. "It seems that

2 in the HVO zone, they are taking good care of all refugees and displaced

3 persons." And then you continue: "However, reality on the basis of many

4 examples shows a different picture." First you state that they take good

5 care of them, and then you say that there are examples that prove

6 otherwise.

7 A. Well, to clarify this, I think that the first statement was what

8 we heard by the officials, the official authorities. And our assessment

9 was always the combination of what we heard from the officials and what we

10 saw ourselves. So the assessment was the responsibility of the team, and

11 the interpretation of everything what happened and what we heard and what

12 we saw.

13 Q. In Siroki Brijeg, did you personally ever see Mr. Naletilic with a

14 bodyguard, as you had put it yesterday? Or was it only in the car?

15 A. We saw him in the car with bodyguards, and we saw him in Siroki

16 Brijeg also with people who accompanied him.

17 Q. Well, how did you infer that the people who were in the same car

18 with him were his bodyguards? Was the car just standing there or was it

19 driving by? I mean, was the car moving or was it just standing there?

20 A. Once we passed him by the checkpoint, I could see what kind of

21 people were inside, of course. He was in the back seat. And, well,

22 heavily-armed, angry-looking youngsters, sometimes they called them

23 bodyguards. So by our best knowledge, it looked to be bodyguards or

24 personal staff, as you want.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would suggest that we

Page 7500

1 take our break perhaps two minutes earlier than usual so I could consult

2 my colleagues in order to conclude my cross-examination as fast as

3 possible. I have just completed a particular topic, and I would only have

4 a few questions after the break, and that would conclude my

5 cross-examination altogether.

6 JUDGE LIU: Can I ask you how long you are going to take for this

7 witness this afternoon?

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that it would

9 not be more than half an hour -- I mean, that would be my maximum, half an

10 hour.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, and how about Mr. Seric?

12 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I expect to take less

13 than half an hour.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I just wanted you to know that

15 we have to finish with this witness today.

16 Mr. Usher, would you please show the witness out of the room

17 first.

18 We'll resume at 2.30 this afternoon.

19 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.58 p.m.







Page 7501

1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik, please continue.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Having

4 consulted with my colleagues, we have reached a position that we have

5 exhausted all the questions that we had of this witness. I would like to

6 thank him for his patience; and I wish you all the best in your life.

7 Thank you.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

9 Mr. Seric.

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Seric:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Van der Grinten - and I apologise if I

13 mispronounced your name - I am Branko Seric and I represent Mr. Vinko

14 Martinovic.

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Can I ask the usher's assistance to

16 show the witness a binder that was shown to the witness by the Prosecutor

17 yesterday.

18 Q. Witness, I would like to ask you to find P454.2 -- 452.1, sorry.

19 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I was told that there was a

20 different number. Yes, it's the correct number.

21 Q. Witness, I apologise if I repeat questions, but there was

22 something I did not understand. Who provided you with this list?

23 A. A man in the western part of Mostar stopped us -- stopped our Jeep

24 and gave this note, telling the story about expelling people the previous

25 night and gave this by saying these were HVO soldiers involved in the

Page 7502

1 action.

2 Q. According to the evidence you gave, you received this on the 14th

3 of June.

4 A. Well, it is stated in my daily report.

5 Q. What does this mean, this appendix of the 13th?

6 A. [Previous translation continues...]

7 Q. Can you explain why the attachment -- actually, there's an

8 attachment at the bottom of this. What is that attachment?

9 A. You mean number 6?

10 Q. Not under 6, but this attachment here.

11 A. That was -- that is the writing of the investigator, so I suppose

12 that this belongs by another thing what is numbered as you see in the

13 attachment. So this is not my handwriting; this is from the investigator.

14 So everything in black ink except attachment PB A909130801, and the two

15 small paragraphs at the right, except that, the rest is my handwriting.

16 Okay. And one of the paragraphs is also mine, of course.

17 Q. Fine. Did you learn what was the man in question, who it was who

18 had given you this piece of paper?

19 A. I don't know his name, but according to the message he gave us

20 also verbally, I made this note as you see. So the writing list of HVO

21 soldiers who expelled Muslim people on the 13th about 17.30 hours is mine

22 own handwriting, and I wrote this on the piece of paper after the

23 interpreter inside the car translated the story the man told us.

24 Q. Did you verify the authenticity of the information given you by

25 the man?

Page 7503

1 A. Well, of course, we tried to figure out if the story was true by

2 the various other international and non-government organisations, like Red

3 Cross, UNHCR, and the day after, actually, on the 15th, we received the

4 official protest letter with attachment from the other side. So there

5 were actually several sources who confirmed this first message.

6 Q. The copy that you have in front of you, is this the actual size or

7 is it enlarged? In other words, is that the same size of the paper that

8 you received?

9 A. I have to be careful now because the original is here, but this

10 is, of course, a copy of the original, and if it exactly fits, I don't

11 know. But the original paper from more or less this size is here; I

12 brought it to the investigator.

13 Q. Did you know the ethnic background of this informer who provided

14 you with this piece of paper?

15 A. No. I don't know his name; I don't know his background.

16 Q. So whatever this man told you on that occasion, you learned from

17 the interpreter, male or a female interpreter, I don't know which

18 interpreter you had at that time.

19 A. Well, as I said, this paper was given through the window by the

20 man, and he told a story about it. He explained what it means. And that

21 was, of course, translated by our interpreter to explain what the story

22 was. And according to that story, I made this note. And, of course, he

23 was not mentioning all the names of the expelled people, but he said

24 exactly what I stated in my statement. And that statement is based on our

25 daily report.

Page 7504

1 Q. We will come to your special reports a little bit later, but let

2 me ask you something else first. What I'm interested in is whether you

3 can tell us whether the man who provided the paper was an eyewitness or

4 perhaps the interpreter could provide that information?

5 A. Well, I can't answer that -- that question at this moment because

6 I don't know it and can't recall it at this moment after eight years.

7 Q. I don't know if you can remember because a lot of time has passed.

8 Did this man say in which street this had happened?

9 A. I'm very sorry, but I can't recall the place where it happened.

10 But it was on the west bank. That's what I know for sure. You find that

11 back in the daily report.

12 Q. Can you recall today, and I apologise for insisting so much on it

13 after so many years, but on the basis of the story that you heard through

14 the interpreter, how far those expulsions were from the actual spot from

15 the location where he provided the paper, when he gave you the paper? Was

16 it in the same street where he gave you the paper, was it in another

17 neighbourhood, in another part of town?

18 A. Other part than what -- that what part you mean? You mean if it

19 was on the spot where it happened? I don't understand your question,

20 sorry.

21 Q. My apologies. At one point, this man came and stopped your

22 vehicle in a street. Now, do you recall today where this was? Was this

23 going on in the same street where the man stopped you, several streets

24 away, or was in another part of town?

25 A. I'm sorry, I can't recall that. I'm sorry.

Page 7505

1 Q. Let's go to the Exhibit 456.4, please.

2 This is a letter of protest, and I have four pages, and I believe

3 you should have four pages, too.

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. Thank you. Can you agree with me that on page -- that page 1

6 contains the text of this protest?

7 A. The written text, I think it's correct, yeah.

8 Q. Will you agree with me that this body of text is in English

9 language, the first page?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Will you agree with me that the next page is in Croatian or

12 Bosnian language?

13 A. Well, there is a translation in English, but the names, of course,

14 are in -- in the Croatian language, yeah.

15 Q. At the very top, it is written in Bosnian the list of refugees who

16 were expulsed on the 13th of January 1993 until 2200 hours. And it lists

17 not --

18 A. At the very, very top, you see the translation in English, and

19 that was on the original document.

20 Q. I must admit that I don't see it in my copy.

21 A. Well, it is there in my copy.

22 Q. Now, if you turn over to the next page, which should be page 3,

23 and at the top you'll see a number "2" for pagination.

24 A. Yeah, I see. I have it here in front of me.

25 Q. Thank you. On that page, do you see anywhere anything written in

Page 7506

1 English?

2 A. Not on this copy, but you have to see the originals to be sure.

3 But it's possible that there was no English on that second page. That's

4 possible.

5 Q. Thank you. I, too, would like to see the original so we can

6 compare it. Now, on the following page - which, as you turn over, if

7 there is no pagination any more, it should be either page 3 or page 4 -

8 you have the list of names. My copy such is that I really cannot see it,

9 but is there a page number on that page?

10 A. Well, not on this one what I have in front of me, but this is a

11 copy of the copy, so it's not the original page, of course. It could be

12 possible that there was no number on the original one, but it's better to

13 check the original than asking me, actually.

14 Q. I agree with you, but I don't have it.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, yes, Mr. Scott.

16 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry, no objection, Counsel, but I just thought

17 it might assist. Your Honour, I've sent an inquiry out of the courtroom

18 to see if the original can be brought to the courtroom. It was one of

19 these documents which is on this old-fashioned thermal fax paper which

20 fades over time. And if it's available to us, we'll have it brought into

21 the courtroom.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

23 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I would also like to thank my

24 learned friend Scott. It would help us.

25 Q. But what am I driving at? What I would like to get from you

Page 7507

1 through my question is when we see, just as a physical set, does this

2 appear to you as one complete, whole document, these four pages?

3 A. When you see the original ones, the original copies I have to say,

4 then you see that there are, let's say, documents written on the same

5 typewriter. I'm not a specialist. But even as non-expert, I believe that

6 the four pieces of paper belong to each other.

7 Q. Doesn't it not look to you that the last page was somehow added

8 on, that is, why -- or to put it this way, why are the pages not numbered

9 sequentially 1 through 4?

10 A. Well, actually, you are asking the wrong person because I was

11 not -- I was provided with the papers, but I didn't wrote them. To

12 explain to you once more, we got the original ones, consisting of the

13 protest letter and three additional pages. And because of the thermal

14 paper eight years ago - and it was in my file as copy - after eight years,

15 it became hard to read. And that's the reason that -- and this is, again,

16 my handwriting you see here on the back of the last page. That is why I

17 wrote, after making a dark copy, the names as I could read it on the last

18 page. But the four pages were delivered at the same time to us on the

19 east side at the HQ of, I think at that time it was General Pasalic.

20 Q. Mr. Van der Grinten, you are right when you said these were not

21 appropriate questions for you, but this one is: Did you understand this

22 letter of protest as -- for what it was, that is, as a letter of protest

23 or did you see it as a potential piece of evidence?

24 A. Well, actually it was a confirmation of the message we had before,

25 and all we heard from the other organisations. So at that time, not

Page 7508

1 knowing that I should sit, after eight years, in this court, I was not

2 considering that as evidence for this case. But it became evidence,

3 actually, by the originals, let's say by the copies I had in file. And at

4 that time -- let me make it very clear, at that time when we received on

5 the 15th these protest letters with additional pages, it was in

6 confirmation of that what we heard before. And as I told you before, that

7 was very important in our work, not only dealing with rumours, but get

8 confirmed information from different sources.

9 Q. We heard that you received this letter dated the 14th June, the

10 protest letter, that is. You also said that on the 14th, the unknown man,

11 you received the piece of paper on the same day.

12 A. No, that's not correct. The protest letter of General Pasalic was

13 given on the 15th.

14 Q. No, I was referring to the date. If you open -- if you go to page

15 1, it was dated 14th June.

16 A. Well, that's correct, but we didn't receive it on the 14th.

17 According to my daily report, we received it on the 15th.

18 Q. Did it cross your mind that both may have come from the same

19 source?

20 A. That was very unlikely in the situation. I don't think so, no.

21 Q. Did you compare the typeface created by the typewriter on the

22 piece of paper and the letter? I know you're not an expert, but some

23 things can simply be seen by looking at them.

24 A. Well, sir, you gave the answer yourself. I'm not an expert, and

25 what I stated in my daily report about the time -- the day/time group we

Page 7509

1 are talking about, the day, the time, and the hour for so far that was

2 mentioned, it's according what happened. So I don't have any more to say

3 as nonexpert, and I think that my daily reports makes very clear when we

4 received it.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Now, I would like to move on to P476.2.

6 Please look at the signature -- rather, there is no signature. It just

7 says the place, Ilici, and the date. Will you agree with me that it says

8 the 24th of June, 1993?

9 A. I think that you have to go to the second page because that is --

10 I'm sorry, you have to go to the third page because that's the original

11 document in the Croatian language, yeah. Because this, where the exhibit

12 number is on, is the translation of our interpreter. She translated the

13 Croatian text, as you see.

14 Q. You're right, you're right. On the top of the page it says,

15 "02083633," and the date is -- thank you, thank you. Again, you'll have

16 to go back to the English translation because you don't know Croatian. It

17 says, "[Come to Ilici]," it says, pardon, in parentheses. "Last night a

18 crime was committed there." According to the text, does it mean that the

19 crime was committed on the 23rd of June, 1993?

20 A. Well, then, I have to go to the text very carefully because I

21 can't remember that exactly, of course. But it says "Last night," so that

22 makes sense. Then it was last night, the night before.

23 Q. Let us perhaps even be more specific. Do you remember the time of

24 the day when this little piece of paper was handed over to you?

25 A. Unfortunately not.

Page 7510

1 Q. I repeat the question. According to the text of this information,

2 this little piece of paper, would it mean that this event had occurred on

3 the 23rd of June, 1993? Because in our terminology, in the Croatian

4 language, if something happened on the previous day, that is yesterday,

5 yesterday afternoon, last night, yesterday evening. There is a difference

6 between yesterday evening and last night, you see.

7 A. Of course there is, but I think we have to stick to the original

8 document, if there was a misinterpretation. Well, I don't know, and I

9 can't recall that. And I'm not a specialist, once again, when we are

10 talking about translation from the Croatian language.

11 Q. All right. Let us now move on to your information with regard to

12 this event. This was compiled on the 25th of June, 1993. Is that right?

13 A. You mean in our daily report?

14 Q. Yes, yes, yes, yes, your daily report.

15 A. Let me check it because I don't know the --

16 Q. That is P477.

17 A. Yeah, I have the document here in front of me.

18 Q. In the Croatian version, it is page 2; in the English version, it

19 is page 3. This is what it says. This is the daily report from the

20 25th. Let me just have a look at the English. In the Croatian text, it

21 is paragraph 4; and in English, it is the fourth and fifth sentences. And

22 this is what it says: "However, we saw a few soldiers that were placing

23 death notices for three Muslims who had died yesterday." "Yesterday," it

24 says. The daily report is dated the 25th. "Our interpreter confirmed to

25 us, she said to us that those three were the family that was referred to

Page 7511

1 in the note." I think that there is something illogical here.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm not going to, I guess, object to --

4 again, I don't think counsel should argue with the witness in that way.

5 But while on my feet, I can tender to counsel through the usher, with his

6 assistance, these original fax pages, if that might assist.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please. I'll take the opportunity to remind Mr.

8 Seric about the fifth line from the top of this page. It was written

9 there that one Muslim family was burned in their house two days before.

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] However, Your Honour, this is what

11 it says, that the interpreter confirmed that those three were the family

12 that is referred to in the note, the three who died, yesterday. I am

13 speaking about the death notices and that particular piece of information.

14 Q. My question is whether it is one and the same event.

15 A. But you are --

16 Q. In terms of the note.

17 A. I'm sorry. When you are talking about the text on top of page

18 R0162814, and that in accordance with the note, then we are talking about

19 the same event. So the text on top what says that the Muslim family was

20 burned in their house, then we are talking about the note in the Croatian

21 language we just saw.

22 Q. Can you tell us, then, what this particular part of your daily

23 report means, that is, sentences five and six? "The interpreter confirms

24 that it is the family to which the note refers."

25 JUDGE CLARK: I think Mr. Seric is making the point to which he

Page 7512

1 attaches a great deal of importance, apparently, that the note that was

2 given to you by the child refers to an event which occurred the previous

3 day. By the time you received the note, the event was two days old. And

4 that when your interpreter looked at the documents that were posted onto

5 the tree, they referred to a death that had occurred the previous day. So

6 Mr. Seric is attaching a great deal of importance to the fact that the

7 death notice on the tree referred to a death that occurred one day

8 previously, and the note you received occurred two days previously.

9 I think the Court has that point, Mr. Seric.

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. So I have no

11 further questions in this regard, then. I shall go back to the other

12 documents. I do apologise to the Honourable Trial Chamber.

13 I will kindly ask the usher to show this to the witness. We have

14 two pages here. There is no pagination, but it is after the protest in

15 English. I don't know whether it is the second or the third page. On the

16 top of the page, there is no English translation, and on the other page

17 there is. The second page, the page numbered number 2, continues in

18 Croatian, then the fourth page, without any pagination, is in English

19 again. In the copies, you can't really see this. So this is the whole

20 set, actually.

21 Q. When you look at this really, I have only one single question

22 left, and that will conclude my cross-examination. Did you check this

23 information that you received?

24 A. Well, when you look to the top of the pages, you can see that they

25 are all coloured the same and that a staple is removed. These are the

Page 7513

1 original ones, with a translation in English on the top.

2 Q. We will really have to get an expert for documents because on a

3 few pages, there's no English translation on the top. All right. The

4 Trial Chamber will deal with this.

5 A. You are asking me what is my opinion, though. My opinion is that

6 these here, these four, where the staple is removed, I think for the

7 copier, are the original ones. That's what I recognise being in my file.

8 Okay?

9 Q. All right. I'm not challenging any of this, sir.

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no

11 further questions. Perhaps if there's still something that is hanging in

12 the air, so to speak, perhaps you could instruct me if I should clarify

13 some further points. But basically, I feel that I have finished.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Seric.

15 JUDGE CLARK: Perhaps, Mr. Seric, if you've asked, I'm wondering

16 about the quality of translation on a few documents which were translated

17 possibly by interpreters who are not of the same calibre or quality as

18 interpreters that we have here. The word in the documents, the note that

19 was given to Mr. Van der Grinten by the child referring to the death by

20 fire, if I can find it now, that is translated as the flat having been

21 mined in English. How do you translate that from the Serbo-Croatian

22 language note? The note that is Exhibit 476.2, Mr. Seric. There's a

23 translation in English, and then the original note that starts with, "Help

24 me..."

25 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I see it now. In Croatian, it

Page 7514

1 says, "The house had been mined."

2 JUDGE CLARK: For the record, I asked does "minimana" [phoen] mean

3 mined?

4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] As if an explosive device had been

5 placed underneath the house, that is. It doesn't have to be a mine, you

6 see. In our language, it does not literally have to be a mine in our

7 language. It can be any explosive device.

8 JUDGE CLARK: That's the point I was making. Mines being placed

9 around the house seems a little old-fashioned. So the word in

10 Serbo-Croatian, if I understand you exactly, means an explosive device.

11 Thank you.

12 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

13 questions. Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination, Mr. Scott?

15 MR. SCOTT: Just a few questions, Your Honour. I wonder if the

16 documents -- I wonder if those documents could be provided to the Chamber

17 just so -- because the Chamber will have some idea as to what the material

18 looks like. It's impossible to copy without running into the same exact

19 problem. I'll just pause, Your Honour, until the Chamber has had a chance

20 to just quickly look at them.

21 Mr. President, while the Chamber is doing that, perhaps the usher

22 and the registrar could assist me by giving two numbers, whatever the next

23 exhibits numbers would be in the Prosecution list, to these two

24 photographs.

25 THE REGISTRAR: P893 is the next number, and I will mark this

Page 7515

1 vehicle, the photo of the vehicle, as P892. And the next exhibit is a

2 photo of a building, and that will be P894.

3 MR. SCOTT: You skipped 3. You seemed to skip.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Oh, I'm, sorry, P893 is the vehicle, and P894 is

5 the building.

6 MR. SCOTT: Thank you very much.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:

8 Q. Colonel, just very quickly, because I didn't anticipate that your

9 cross-examination would dwell so heavily on some of these matters. If you

10 could look first at the photograph that has been marked first as P893, and

11 since at the moment there's only one in the courtroom, if that could just

12 be put on the ELMO, please. Is that a copy of the armoured

13 four-wheel-drive vehicle that you used during your tour in Bosnia in 1993?

14 A. That's correct, sir. That's correct, sir.

15 Q. In this particular photograph, only very briefly, can you point to

16 the Chamber to show on one occasion one of the bullet impact marks that

17 had occurred prior to this photograph being taken?

18 A. Yeah. You see here the impact of the bullet that hit the car on

19 the 3rd of June driving the car from the west to the east bank in

20 advancing the Tito bridge actually. That is the impact that we are sure

21 of that was fired from the blue bank building.

22 Q. And during the time of your tour in Bosnia-Herzegovina, did your

23 vehicle always appear that way, including the bright orange letters EC

24 monitor, and the blue symbol, if you will, of the European community or

25 the European Union?

Page 7516

1 A. We always drove this car with these signs upon it.

2 Q. If you can ask you, please, then, to turn your attention to

3 Exhibit P894. If that could also be placed on the ELMO, please. The

4 taller building in that photograph that we see, can you identify that

5 building, please.

6 A. Well, sir, that is the building we called in our reports the blue

7 bank building.

8 Q. And approximately where was that in relationship to the

9 confrontation line in Mostar?

10 A. That was very close, actually very close to the confrontation line

11 on the west side, west bank.

12 Q. Very well.

13 MR. SCOTT: I'm finished, usher, with those two photographs.

14 Q. Now, just so the dates are clear, Colonel, is it correct that your

15 tour of duty began on approximately the 24th of May, 1993 and continued

16 until approximately the 22nd of August, 1993?

17 A. When you are talking about leaving the area, that's correct, the

18 21st. When you are talking about entering the Mostar area, that was late

19 May, that's correct.

20 Q. All right.

21 A. Because my whole tour was longer, of course, but not in

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23 Q. Yes, I didn't mean to say ECMM such as in Hungary, but your time

24 in Bosnia-Herzegovina was approximately from late May to late August?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 7517

1 Q. Now, some of the names you have mentioned, Colonel, if I might,

2 because questions have been raised about the source of your knowledge and

3 the people you dealt with while you were there. Did you meet with Bruno

4 Stojic, the HVO Minister of Defence?

5 A. That's correct; several times.

6 Q. You testified today that you met with him at least four times?

7 A. At least. I think it was more.

8 Q. Did you have any meetings or dealings with a man named Slobodan

9 Bozic, the deputy Minister of Defence?

10 A. We met him also when Mr. Bozic [sic] was not available.

11 Q. This man Stanko Maric, a senior HVO officer, how often did you

12 meet with him, approximately?

13 A. Well, it's hard to say, but I suppose more than ten, maybe 15

14 times.

15 Q. And did you meet with Valentin Coric, the head of the HVO military

16 police?

17 A. We met him at least, at least two times.

18 Q. Did you meet with Mr. Burko Pusic?

19 A. We met Mr. Pusic more often. He was the deputy of Mr. Coric.

20 When Mr. Coric was not there, then we addressed Mr. Pusic.

21 Q. When you say "the deputy," he was the deputy head of the HVO

22 military police?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. You've indicated you met with this man Jadranko Prlic. Is that

25 correct?

Page 7518

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. What was his position?

3 A. He was the president of HVO, by my knowledge, at that time.

4 Q. You met with this doctor, the head of the west side hospital, Ivan

5 Bagaric. Is that correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Approximately how many times did you meet with him?

8 A. Four or five times maybe. I don't recall it exactly, but at least

9 four times.

10 Q. You met with a man named Slavko Puljic?

11 A. Puljic, yeah, at the -- on several occasions, most of the time at

12 the HQ of HVO, and I remember that, in the beginning of June, during the

13 joint committee meetings, he was also there.

14 Q. And what was his position or title, if you remember?

15 A. I think that he was a local -- no, he was in the beginning. I

16 think he was, in the beginning, chief of staff from HVO army. Later on,

17 he became commander of one of the units.

18 Q. And by way of summary, approximately how many times did you meet

19 with this Ivan Andabak?

20 A. At least three times.

21 Q. Ivo Culjic?

22 A. The mayor of Siroki Brijeg?

23 Q. Yes, how many times did you meet with him?

24 A. At least three times. I think more.

25 Q. Did you meet with a man named Darinko Tadic?

Page 7519

1 A. Yeah, he was in charge of the Bosnia/Croatian refugees and

2 displaced persons. And by my memory, we visited him at least once in his

3 office.

4 Q. And finally, did you ever meet with a man named Kresimir Zubak?

5 A. At least once.

6 Q. Do you recall his position?

7 A. He was, I think at that time, the vice-president.

8 Q. Colonel, the testimony that you provided to this Chamber in the

9 last two days in your evidence, is much of that evidence based on your

10 meetings and dealings were all the individuals you've just named?

11 A. Well, actually, strictly upon our daily reports, and daily reports

12 were made after, directly after the meetings, returning from the meetings

13 or the end of the day, returning to our place, our CC in Siroki Brijeg.

14 Q. Just about two or three more questions.

15 Can you tell the Chamber, please, how would you compare the extent

16 of destruction in both parts of Mostar? And when I say both parts, the

17 east and west side, and I'm directing your attention away from the

18 immediate confrontation line and putting aside clearly that both sides of

19 such, for instance, the Bulevar were badly damaged. Once you got away

20 from the confrontation line itself, how did the destruction in West Mostar

21 compare to the destruction you saw in East Mostar?

22 A. Well, the eastern part of Mostar was actually in extended -- looks

23 like an extended confrontation line when you compare the damage with the

24 western part of Mostar.

25 Q. And how would you compare the situations that you found at the

Page 7520

1 hospital in East Mostar compared with the HVO hospital in West Mostar?

2 A. Well, by our visits of the western hospital, we actually entered a

3 normal organised and working hospital. And on the East Bank, we called it

4 the war hospital. It was not in a regular hospital building, but I think

5 in -- it was an old school or library or something like that. I can't

6 recall exactly. But the building was not suited for a foreign hospital,

7 of course. They were operating, for instance, in the kitchen of the

8 building. And also the space was, of course, not enough, and not a lot of

9 things was arranged at that particular place.

10 Q. Colonel, I thank you again very much.

11 MR. SCOTT: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from Judges? Judge Clark.

13 JUDGE CLARK: Yes, Colonel, I have some questions for you. I have

14 quite a number, in fact.

15 Questioned by the Court:

16 JUDGE CLARK: I'm going to go chronologically through your

17 evidence, and there are a number of items I wanted to have clarified, so

18 possibly I'm going backwards. You described in an early stage of your

19 evidence a man who was well known in the area as Juka. And today, you

20 couldn't remember his name, but yesterday you described him as Juka

21 Prazina.

22 A. Of course, Your Honour, because I had the document in front of me,

23 and it's easier to -- for me, to read his name from the paper than I

24 recall it after eight years.

25 JUDGE CLARK: I accept that totally. It happens to us after only

Page 7521

1 one day. Colonel, does the name "Prazina" ring a bell? Are you satisfied

2 that Juka is Juka Prazina?

3 A. Absolutely.

4 JUDGE CLARK: On the day that Juka Prazina tried to disrupt a

5 meeting that was taking place with General Pasalic and you, do you

6 remember if he was dressed in a uniform?

7 A. He was dressed in a uniform at that time. Or, let's say, a kind

8 of uniform.

9 JUDGE CLARK: Did your information or information gathering inform

10 you as to what Juka Prazina's background was? Was he a career soldier or

11 somebody who took up a uniform and a gun?

12 A. Well, of course, we had some background information from UNPROFOR

13 and from our own organisation. So we were, I think, well informed about

14 the men who were operating in that area, or could -- let's say, the people

15 we could met in that area sometimes.

16 JUDGE CLARK: Could you tell the Court what your information on

17 Juka Prazina was in relation to his background and his military training,

18 if any?

19 A. Well, actually, the most important information we had was that he

20 was acting previous in Sarajevo as a commander of also a special unit.

21 And the information also was well known that he was not educated from

22 scratch as a military man. By our information, it was one of the guys who

23 took advantage by the conflict to act as, between brackets, a "military

24 commander."

25 JUDGE CLARK: Would you like to say, Colonel, who the other men

Page 7522

1 were who also took advantage of the conflict to act as military

2 commanders?

3 A. One in our information was Mr. Tuta.

4 JUDGE CLARK: And what about Mr. Andabak?

5 A. Of course Mr. Andabak, but I already mentioned that yesterday and

6 today.

7 JUDGE CLARK: This leads me to my next question, which happens to

8 follow also the evidence that you gave. You informed us yesterday, and

9 you translated to a certain extent for us this series of documents which

10 are described as the HVO command structure, and you led us through that

11 document, and you told us that this was based on what you considered to be

12 very accurate information garnered by SpaBat --

13 A. At that time.

14 JUDGE CLARK: -- And UNPROFOR. I have been looking through the

15 documents and with your assistance obviously can understand it a lot

16 better. This evidence is unchallenged evidence, and if I bring you to

17 page 5 of that document, which deals with the SPF. Now, I think it would

18 be of assistance if you had the document in front of you. It would be

19 possible for the Prosecution to furnish you with the document. The

20 registrar has done it.

21 A. Thank you.

22 JUDGE CLARK: Do you have the document which has two rectangles

23 coming down from a line called "SPF"?

24 A. That's correct, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE CLARK: Now, Colonel, the question that I want to ask you

Page 7523

1 is, where the SPF derives its authority from and where does it fit into

2 the command structure?

3 A. Well, actually, you need an additional page because you see -- we

4 are talking about page C4 or 5, is that correct, just before, "UN

5 restricted"?

6 JUDGE CLARK: That's correct.

7 A. Well, as you see, there is a line between the two boxes that gives

8 the regimental size, that depicts regimental size, Mostar and Grude, you

9 see that there is a commander relationship by the line above, but we

10 need -- actually, because this is, let's say, a -- this is a part of

11 the whole -- what we called organigramme and you need to follow that line

12 to find who was, let's say, the chief of the both commanders of the

13 special forces. So I think that I have to look for that.

14 JUDGE CLARK: Yes, I would like your assistance on that.

15 A. We have to go back to explain it a little bit better. Page A3,

16 when you go back, page A3, and I'm mentioning the numbering of the UN,

17 that is, as you see, the political organisation, you have to go back --

18 six pages actually back. Then the next page is, let's say, the agenda

19 about the symbols, and then you find, "UN restricted," page C1, the HVO

20 military structure but within Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the interesting part

21 then, for your question is, of course, the most left -- left box. That's

22 called, "Southeast Herzegovina, Mostar on Charlie 1." Because the other

23 operational zones, "OZ" stands for operational zones, are in other parts

24 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So when we focus on Mostar, then we go to the next

25 page, and there you'll find the most left block broken down in smaller

Page 7524

1 units. And as you see there, you find in the breakdown of this picture,

2 again, a box with a cross on top. That means brigade size, brigade size,

3 called Mostar. You see the commander and the deputy commander. There you

4 find Mr. Pusic we are talking about.

5 So breaking down that organisation is done on page -- is done on

6 page Charlie 4, actually, you find the back, that's done on Charlie 4

7 Alpha. When you see page Charlie 4, you see by the Mostar brigade number

8 3, so the 3rd Brigade southeast, Mostar, you see the grid where it was

9 located. VH 2898, Commander Ivan Primorac, deputy commander Mila Pusic.

10 And when you go now finally to the page you started with the special

11 forces, you see that Mostar and the grid is the same, VH 2898. That means

12 that the line actually has to -- has to be drawn as it is by the other two

13 brigades on page Charlie 4.

14 JUDGE CLARK: So does that mean, Colonel, that if we're looking at

15 what you called Charlie 4A, where you have the parallel line at the top of

16 the page with two verticals leading to SPF -- Mostar and SPF Grude, that

17 we should draw a vertical line upwards joining up with the hatched

18 rectangle which says "Mostar" and underneath it either a Y or a VH 2898.

19 A. That's correct, Your Honour, it's a Y, not a V. It's YH 2898,

20 that's correct. That means that, in simple words, under the brigade,

21 you'll find a special forces unit from regimental size, and that was

22 broken down in two units from company size, and then we are -- then we are

23 at Commander Juka and Commander Andabak.

24 JUDGE CLARK: And if we move upwards to Commander M. Naletilic,

25 Tuta, do we come to Pusic and then Primorac?

Page 7525

1 A. That's correct.

2 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. Colonel, do you make a distinction

3 between special forces and paramilitary units?

4 A. Not in this organisation.

5 JUDGE CLARK: So in a number of your reports, you refer to Mr.

6 Puljic, or Puljic, referring to paramilitary organisations, and I think

7 maffias, which have capos. Are you talking about different words for the

8 same thing?

9 A. Definitely not because here we are talking about uniformed

10 soldiers, I'm talking about the army. And that's exactly the most

11 important difference between -- when we are talking about our descriptions

12 in the daily reports, and we are talking about these units, then we are

13 talking about HVO army, uniformed soldiers.

14 JUDGE CLARK: I think you misunderstood me. When you are talking

15 about the special forces who are described in the document there, and then

16 later on in your reports you talk about paramilitary units, are you

17 talking about the same people?

18 A. No.

19 JUDGE CLARK: The paramilitary units are different people from the

20 special forces?

21 A. When we are talking about paramilitary units, we are not talking

22 about uniformed units within a structure.

23 JUDGE CLARK: So can I read from that, or if I understand you

24 correctly, the special forces were uniformed units within a structure?

25 A. That was as we described it, yeah.

Page 7526

1 JUDGE CLARK: Can I refer you to your report towards the end of

2 the book of documents. It's Exhibit 484. It's a report of the 29th of

3 June, 1993. And if I can bring you to the third page, which is entitled

4 "R0162829."

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE CLARK: In particular in that report, you're talking about

7 the concept of exchange of doctors between the west and the east side, and

8 you have written: "When we asked him about the exchange of doctors with

9 the east side, he liked the idea. But he told us that some paramilitary

10 organisations still existed in the community of Herceg-Bosna, and they are

11 putting a lot of pressure on the HVO to avoid any agreement with the

12 Armija." Who was he talking about when he talked about paramilitary

13 organisations, to the best of your knowledge?

14 A. Well, that's very hard to say, Your Honour. Actually, I don't

15 know.

16 JUDGE CLARK: And then if I take you to the next page, which if I

17 understand your evidence correctly, the part called the assessment is your

18 own personal view based on the various pieces of information and

19 intelligence which you've received. You said that, "Mr. Puljic appeared

20 to be more friendly than his HVO colleagues and also more honest. We

21 think he has told us the truth when talking about the paramilitary

22 organisations inside or next to the HVO."

23 Now, you go on to say that: "These organisations are extremists

24 and nationalists, usually full of criminals from all over the world.

25 Their power is their money and their behaviour worse than any other

Page 7527

1 people." Are those a reiteration of his views or is that your assessment?

2 A. Assessment was ours. As I told before, after meeting him, we put

3 everything together and made also our own comment.

4 JUDGE CLARK: And then the next: "Their power is their money and

5 their behaviour worse than any other people. We had met some of these

6 capos of these maffias (Mr. Tuta, Mr. Andavac, Mr. Yuka, et cetera, et

7 cetera)..."

8 Again, is that your assessment or are you reiterating his words?

9 A. No, that was our assessment.

10 JUDGE CLARK: Now, if I go to a different subject, I appreciate

11 that after the end of June, that your access to the city and close

12 environs of Mostar was extremely limited. But before that, for the

13 six-week period that you were there before that, were you able to

14 ascertain where in the area of Mostar were Muslim refugees housed or was

15 there a reception centre for them?

16 A. Not by my knowledge. Do you mean on the west bank?

17 JUDGE CLARK: Yes, on the west bank.

18 A. Not by my knowledge, on the west bank. Then only the Heliodrom,

19 but that was, by our visits, a prison, not what you mean, I suppose.

20 JUDGE CLARK: What I mean by a "reception centre" is really a

21 refuge for them where they were treated in a humanitarian fashion. Was

22 there a reception centre anywhere in Mostar for refugees, either Croatian,

23 Serbian, or Muslim?

24 A. At that time, not by our knowledge, by my knowledge.

25 JUDGE CLARK: Did anybody ever suggest to you that Muslims were

Page 7528

1 being removed from premises which were not theirs and the premises were

2 being given back to their rightful owners?

3 A. West bank, you're still talking about? This is actually the first

4 time that I heard that suggestion, here in the courtroom this morning.

5 JUDGE CLARK: You also said that when you were investigating

6 reports of Muslims having been removed from their residences, that you

7 went to the places and you found that there were stickers on the door.

8 Could you give me a little more information about what sort of stickers

9 they were?

10 A. What I saw that were HVO stickers, stickers from HVO units.

11 JUDGE CLARK: What did they say?

12 A. I don't recall, but most of the units had patches on their

13 uniforms with a symbol what showed, for instance, to which unit they

14 belong.

15 JUDGE CLARK: I understand you now. I thought it was a sticker

16 from the HVO with an announcement, but it was a sticker which represented

17 a particular unit formation.

18 A. That's what I saw myself.

19 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.

20 A. Maybe, Your Honour, I can make it a little bit more clear about

21 the assessment you just mentioned. The problem we, of course, had was

22 that, for instance, Mr. Tuta, we never saw in uniform. He was in the

23 military organisation, by our knowledge, but we never saw him in uniform.

24 By coincidence, mentioning the 30th of June, we met Mr. Andabak in uniform

25 but never before. That Mr. Juka normally also was changing from civilian

Page 7529

1 sometimes to uniform. So that made it actually very complicated, and we

2 had, of course, some information about the background of the gentlemen. So

3 you have to put this text in that context actually.

4 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. Can I ask you about Mr. Bagavic, I

5 think. Bagavic or Bagaric.

6 A. Bagaric, I think.

7 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Ivan Bagaric. You described yesterday that he

8 wasn't quite the picture that you had in your mind of what a chef de

9 clinique ought to look like, and in particular, you said that he had a

10 camouflage jacket and was carrying a pistol under his white coat. Do you

11 know if this man was actually in fact a medical doctor or was he merely

12 the manager of the hospital?

13 A. Well, he said to us that he was a doctor. But the only thing we

14 recognised, actually, was the white coat. It looked more, actually, a

15 military man with a white coat on. But he told us that he was doctor,

16 so...

17 JUDGE CLARK: He told you that and you also know he was in charge

18 of the hospital.

19 A. Seems to.

20 JUDGE CLARK: You'll be glad to know finally I'm coming to the end

21 of my questions. I think you described that you met Mr. Andabak, who is

22 reported or referred to as "Andavak," and you explained that the Spanish

23 spelling of "B" is "V." So --

24 A. I don't know if that is the case in the Spanish language, but --

25 JUDGE CLARK: Well "Valencia" is pronounced "Balencia," et cetera,

Page 7530

1 but you said it was a mistake in the Spanish spelling. You said you met

2 him three times and you described how you met him once when he was angry

3 and he was excited and you explained the circumstances. Did you ever meet

4 this same man, Mr. Andabak, officially?

5 A. Well, I think that the only time that we met him officially was by

6 surprise.

7 JUDGE CLARK: So on the other occasions, was it a chance

8 encounter?

9 A. In Siroki Brijeg, and I think once downtown Mostar, from the three

10 times.

11 JUDGE CLARK: There's just one question I should have come back to

12 at the beginning that I should have asked you about. Early on in your

13 evidence - and you were cross-examined about this - you described how you

14 had information that Mr. Tuta had an office in the department of Defence

15 building, and that this information was confirmed by your interpreter. I

16 particularly looked this up, Colonel, because you were cross-examined on

17 the basis that you were told by the secretary first. But am I correct in

18 interpreting your evidence as having been that you heard from other

19 sources first that Mr. Tuta had an office, and the office was pointed out

20 to you by your interpreter?

21 A. It is the last situation, because we were well informed by our

22 predecessors about the situation and what we should see at the MOD, the

23 Ministry of Defence, by our first visit. So...

24 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you very much, Colonel. You have been very

25 patient with me.

Page 7531

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Judge Clark. Judge Diarra.

2 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. My

3 questions have already been asked, actually, by my colleagues. However, I

4 would like to ask the colonel what kind of unfortunate actions could

5 specifically be given to the special units that were directed by Juka and

6 Andabak and headed by Mladen Naletilic. Just tell us, please, about these

7 unfortunate actions led by these men on the ground.

8 A. I think, Your Honour, we had the impression that their task was,

9 for instance, expelling people, intimidation, threatening, looting. It

10 happened always at night in darkness, and it was always what we called

11 covert actions.

12 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Colonel.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Judge Diarra.

14 Any questions out of Judges' questions?

15 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour. Thank you.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, we did not

18 question any of the documents simply because this is not a set compiled by

19 this witness, he just accepted it on its face value. We will file

20 separate documents discussing this, the documents of the SpaBat cannot be

21 entered in this way and we will provide arguments for this. The documents

22 and the charts that he now talked about.

23 Further cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

24 Q. [Interpretation] But, Colonel, I'm going to ask something on the

25 basis of the questions of Judge Clark. Do they have something like a

Page 7532

1 tactical groups, special units, that is, that are sent for especially

2 dangerous tasks? Do you know if there is an equivalent between such units

3 and what you have?

4 A. Can you be more specific? Can you mention the unit, for instance,

5 because I don't understand quite well what you're asking.

6 Q. This is a follow-up on Judge Clark's question. These special

7 forces that are mentioned on page C4A. Can they -- do they have the same

8 name in the royal army or is that identical to, say, tactical groups? Can

9 special forces be called tactical groups and the special forces as

10 described here are identical to the ones in the royal army?

11 A. Well, I explained to you before that that comparison is not valid

12 because I don't understand what you mean. Of course, special forces is

13 used according to the type of organisation and the nation in different

14 ways. It doesn't mean always the same. You see the special forces of the

15 U.S., the U.S.A., are tasked in another way than, for instance, the Dutch

16 battalion.

17 Q. Witness, if I understood you correctly, I'm going to try to show

18 the chain of command like this, and let's say this is the HVO

19 headquarters. This is where the commander and the chief of staffs are.

20 If we drop one line below, they had four operative zones, Mostar,

21 southeast, southwest, and northwest, as the four main areas. Now, we are

22 not military experts ourselves, but below the Mostar operative zone, we

23 have the next level, which is brigades, and then below that there would be

24 special forces. So in terms of chain of command, he would be on the

25 eighth rung. In other words, he can act only if he has orders of eight

Page 7533

1 superior officers. In other words, it is conceived in the headquarters,

2 then it is sent to the sector to which it refers; in this case, Mostar,

3 and then the Mostar operative zone implements the plan and sends it down

4 to the brigade, and the brigade uses special forces as needed. Was my

5 understanding of what you said correct?

6 And also, based on the chart that you interpreted for Judge Clark.

7 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott.

8 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm still looking at the chart myself,

9 and I still have it pasted together here. I think it's not fair to put

10 that question to the witness without having it in front of him again,

11 because if you just go through the layers, you can count them. And I

12 think the witness ought to have this in front of him.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise. The witness has these

14 charts in front of him. He interpreted them for Judge Clark. I'm just

15 trying to confirm whether my understanding of what he has said here is

16 correct.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll work on the chart in this document.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, I basically copied it based on

19 what the colonel said.

20 A. Such a diagram shows the chain of command normally, that is the

21 need of such a picture. It is showing the chain of command, who are in

22 charge of who.

23 Q. Is my sketch, then, correct, the one that I drew? Did you agree

24 with it just a moment before? If we have the headquarters, which is the

25 main headquarters, which is superior to the four commanders of four

Page 7534

1 operative zones. Do you follow me? Now, the Mostar operative zone has a

2 brigade, and below the brigade is the special forces unit.

3 A. Belonging under the brigade you find the two units, let's say,

4 first the regimental special forces unit and then the two from company

5 size, that's correct

6 Q. Did I understand you correctly, Colonel, usually any action is

7 conceived at the headquarters, any operation during wartime at the

8 headquarters. Is that correct?

9 A. Well, depends how it is organised because every level has a

10 certain responsibility within their area of operations given by higher

11 command.

12 Q. After that, it is sent down to the main commander of one of these

13 zones; in this case, the Mostar operative zone, the southeast zone. They

14 implement the orders, and also send them down to the brigade, and the

15 operative zone will decide whether and where they will use special forces.

16 Is that correct, in military terms?

17 A. That could be the situation. It depends, it depends, how it is

18 organised, of course, and that's not everywhere the same. It depends on

19 the nation, for instance, and the way the army is organised.

20 Q. Colonel, I'm going to show you another chart. I wasn't -- I

21 hadn't intended using them but since you introduced them. Look at C5,

22 please. Charlie 5 is closer to NATO terminology, I guess.

23 You have northwest Herzegovina operative zone, and again you have

24 a commander of special forces, and again it's Ivan Andabak. Colonel, same

25 rank as the other one; it's him again. How is this possible now, that he

Page 7535

1 was both in Mostar and in this -- in the northwest Herzegovina operative

2 zone? And thirdly, in all your reports, you described him as an -- as the

3 overall commander of all special forces of the HVO, which is what you

4 confirmed to me when I asked you, you confirmed that I had asked you

5 whether Mr. Ivan Andabak in your reports is named as the commander of

6 special forces. That was today.

7 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me --

8 A. That's not correct.

9 MR. SCOTT: I think that's a mischaracterisation of the evidence.

10 He was a special commander. I think it's a stretch to say what Mr. Krsnik

11 has just said.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My apologies. My colleague will find

13 where I asked it, and I think that we will all see that it is correct.

14 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, I have to remind you that we are about 15

15 minutes behind our schedule. You must finish your question as soon as

16 possible because I understand that there are a lot of documents to tender

17 through this witness.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honours. However,

19 the questions of Judge Clark we perceive as very important, and we would

20 like to clarify them fully.

21 [In English] Line 15, page 26 [Interpretation] The question was --

22 the question was, "Will you please tell me whether your statement and your

23 reports --" is it true that in several places, at least in three places,

24 in your statement and in reports, you said that Mr. Andabak -- you say,

25 "He," but it's in reference to Mr. Andabak -- of the HVO. Answer:

Page 7536

1 "That's correct."

2 JUDGE CLARK: That's not, "Overall Commander." "Commander" and

3 "Overall Commander" are two totally different concepts.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, commander of the special

5 units of the HVO is, it is self-explanatory. These are the HVO special

6 units. There are no other ones.

7 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

9 MR. SCOTT: I don't think -- the witness doesn't -- forgive me, I

10 don't want to interrupt Judge Diarra. The witness does not have the

11 ability to scroll back, but in looking at that, it says exactly -- our

12 record at least, I don't know, maybe Mr. Krsnik and I are not looking at

13 the same page. It says, "A commander," I believe, which is what the

14 transcript says and which is what I recall. "A commander."

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] One of the --

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's, "A commander."

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] That is letter "A."

18 JUDGE LIU: There are a lot of commanders.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Then I will ask the tape so that I

20 can see what I had asked in Croatian, because I remember quite well what I

21 had asked, because I based it on the report where it stated clearly. I

22 don't know whether this witness can come back tomorrow morning. I'm going

23 to show him in three places, on three reports, where he said -- he wrote

24 down that Ivan Andabak was commander of the special forces of the HVO.

25 This I drew from the reports of this witness. And I wanted to just

Page 7537

1 compare this to -- with this page C5. And I haven't received the answer

2 to that yet. Plus, in Mostar operative zone, he was a commander.

3 Q. If I understood you correctly, That would have been a

4 company-sized unit in this chart?

5 A. Maybe --

6 Q. Maybe.

7 A. No, no, no, maybe I can answer and help you with this

8 misunderstanding.

9 Q. Very well. I would be grateful.

10 A. What I said in the beginning, according to this diagram, that we

11 had this information and that Mr. Andabak was one of the commanders of a

12 special forces unit. And you see on this diagram that -- on the diagram

13 is commander of a company-sized unit. And I never said that he was the

14 only one in charge of special forces in Mostar. So that is a

15 misunderstanding.

16 Q. I'm just going to look for one of the reports where you said the

17 exact opposite.

18 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm going to pose another objection at

19 this point. I think there was a certain latitude that was related to

20 Judge Clark's questions. I think now we are arguing the point way beyond

21 the scope of Judge Clark's questions.

22 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, we believe that Judges could read all

23 those reports and help you to solve this problem. And I can assure you

24 that you have the full right to check with the recordings tonight or

25 tomorrow, at a later stage. Now, we are running against time.

Page 7538

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I fully

2 respect your ruling. Thank you.

3 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric?

4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Just one question, Mr. President.

5 Further cross-examined by Mr. Seric:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, in this organisational chart of this

7 chain of command, did you ever find the name of my client anywhere? In

8 this Exhibit 532.1, that is.

9 A. By my knowledge, he is not in this SpaBat diagram.

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. No further questions.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

12 Thank you, Witness, for coming here to help us by giving your

13 evidence. We all wish you a good trip back to your station.

14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: The usher will show you out of the room.

16 [Witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

18 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. First off, the photograph of the --

19 well, particularly the three men identified, P36.1 modified for witness's

20 markings, whichever slash that would be. Slash 1, I'm told. P417.1.

21 P431.1. P435.1. P440.1. P451. P451.1. P452.1. P456.3. P456.4.

22 P458.1. P462. P475. P476.2. P477. P480. P483. P484. P488. 497.

23 P498. P516. P532.1.

24 And, Your Honour, then the two photographs that were added, I'm

25 told that that was once 893 has been corrected to 894. Is

Page 7539

1 that correct? That was the photo of the vehicle -- what had previously

2 been marked as Exhibit 894, the photograph of what the witness called the

3 blue bank building has now been amended to be P895. And the Prosecution

4 would tender all of those documents, Mr. President. Thank you.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections? Mr. Krsnik.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. And we would like

7 our usual eight-day deadline for replying to this, except for the --

8 except the photographs, of course, to which we have no objections.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Seric?

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we object to P435.1,

11 P477, and we will provide arguments because we believe that these pieces

12 of paper prove nothing. And we do not object to the other exhibits.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I believe those photos have been

14 admitted into the evidence since there's no objections from the Defence

15 counsel. And the Defence counsel have eight days to submit their written

16 objections on those issues.

17 So tomorrow morning, there's no trial for this case because this

18 courtroom is occupied by another case. But we have to be here at 2.15 in

19 the afternoon. We'll sit until 7.00. We'll have that previous witness in

20 the afternoon. So we'll resume at 2.15 tomorrow afternoon.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

22 4.24 p.m., to be reconvened on

23 Wednesday, the 9th day of January, 2002,

24 at 2.15 p.m.