Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7540

1 Wednesday, 9 January 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar, if you could.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much. Before we start, we

9 would like to thank to the interpreters --

10 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] We don't have the interpretation, sorry.

11 JUDGE LIU: Do you hear me? Thank you. Before we start, we would

12 like to thank the interpreters, the court reporters, and the technician

13 supporters for their cooperation. Without their assistance, it was

14 impossible for us to finish the testimony of that witness yesterday. We

15 appreciate the effort they made to this end.

16 As for today's scheduling of sitting, we were told we have to

17 finish the sitting at 7.00 sharp. So we will divide this afternoon's

18 sitting into three sessions; each will be 75 minutes.

19 Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the witness.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE LIU: Can you hear me, Witness?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.

23 JUDGE LIU: Sit down, please. I just want to remind you that you

24 are still under the oath.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 7541

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Examined by Mr. Poriouvaev: [continued]

5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ajanic.

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 Q. Are you all right today?

8 A. Well, better than the previous day.

9 Q. Okay, let's hope for the best. The day before yesterday, Mr.

10 Ajanic, we came to the point that while working at Hotel Ero, at one point

11 you saw Drago Kordo, who informed you that your baby had died. My

12 question will be what happened to you after you had heard about that

13 incident?

14 A. Well, nothing special happened. Because he knew me, he took me

15 home for an hour or two, and then he brought me back.

16 Q. Were you returned to Heliodrom?

17 A. Well, they did around 11.00, at night, that is.

18 Q. And what happened to you afterwards?

19 A. Then they learned about it at the Heliodrom, and I asked that I be

20 allowed to go and bury the child. They permitted me to go and be back by

21 the morning. In fact, they said they would wait until the morning to see

22 what would happen. So I was waiting to see whether they would let me go.

23 They didn't.

24 And I knew a soldier who was a member of the HVO, he was a

25 policeman, and I asked him to give -- to provide me some tablets, some

Page 7542

1 tranquilizers so that I could calm down because I was upset. He took me

2 to the infirmary where there was a Bosniak Muslim prisoner who worked

3 there as a physician. He gave me 50 milligrams of Apaurin and I took them

4 all before dinner. And I did not know anything after that. I woke up in

5 a municipal hospital. That's the next thing I knew.

6 Q. How long did you stay in hospital?

7 A. About three months.

8 And can I also ask if my sound can be turned up, the volume.

9 Q. Just one question I would like to clarify. Did it all happen

10 after the incident with Harmandic? I mean the death of your baby.

11 A. Yes, it did.

12 Q. When were you released from Heliodrom?

13 A. When I went to the hospital. When I went to the hospital, they

14 came several times to take me with, but the physician and a psychologist,

15 Djurdja Faruk, did not allow it. But when I came to in the morning, the

16 doctor asked me, Can you go to bury the child? And I said, Yes, of

17 course. She said, Go in front of the office -- in front of the office

18 there and wait for me to give you a release document so that nobody would

19 touch you from the military. So I went home first to my wife. I asked

20 what happened, and she said, Let's go up to Bijele Brijeg, that's where

21 the child is. We went to the mortuary at Bijele Brijeg; however, we were

22 told that he had been buried the day before. So I don't know to date

23 where the child was buried.

24 And then I went back home, had a cup of coffee, and then went back

25 to the hospital.

Page 7543

1 Q. And when were you released from hospital?

2 A. To be honest with you, some three months later, and I was on a

3 list of missing for a long time. But I only got papers from Zagreb some

4 two months before coming to The Hague which certified that I was actually

5 alive.

6 Q. When you talk about three months, what do you mean? Do you mean

7 from the moment you were taken to hospital?

8 A. From the moment when I was taken to the hospital, I spent some

9 three months in the hospital. And before that, I was at the Heliodrom for

10 exactly three months and two days, imprisoned by the HVO.

11 Q. Mr. Ajanic, and what happened to your second baby?

12 A. As far as my second child is concerned, when they released me from

13 the hospital, I came home and I asked my wife where Muhamed was, and she

14 said, He is around somewhere. The other children were at home. They were

15 told not to move about very much because we were of Bosniak faith.

16 Several hours later -- I kept looking for him, I couldn't find him, and it

17 was already dark. And the curfew was from 7.00 or 8.00, I'm not entirely

18 sure. And then I saw a soldier, and I asked him, "Listen, have you seen

19 my Muhamed anywhere?" He said, "I saw him. He was at Stela's." And he

20 gave me a ride in his car to Stela's, and I was in the car. He went in

21 and he told me this: "Halil, I would drive you further on, but one of my

22 fellow soldiers was killed, so I can't take you there." However, in the

23 morning when -- early in the morning, I went to Stela's, and I waited for

24 him. He arrived with -- in a Jaguar, and I asked him, "Excuse me, Stela,

25 do you know anything about my boy?" He said, "Come on over here to my

Page 7544

1 office." We entered the office, and I just asked him, "Did he do

2 something that he shouldn't have?" He said, "No, no, he did not. And do

3 you want a coffee? Do you want something -- a stiff drink?" And it's

4 true. And he said, "You know what happened to Muhamed?" I said, "I

5 don't. If I did, I would not be asking you." He said, "Yesterday, he was

6 watching television in a room with some Stela's soldiers. And apparently

7 he had found a grenade and somehow activated it and was killed by it and

8 was taken to the mortuary in Bijele Brijeg."

9 And he was my favorite. I went to Bijele Brijeg to see him. I

10 saw a man, a woman, and my son Muhamed whom I barely recognised because he

11 was wearing boots which were of purple colour. I went to my wife to let

12 her know. I did not have money so I did not know what and where. I

13 didn't know where I would bury him. So I went to Stela, and I asked him,

14 "I don't know what to do with him, how am I to bury him?" There was a

15 man called Stipe Colak there. I know that he worked, for instance,

16 something for the HVO. Stela asked him, Let's put him down as -- how

17 shall I put it? -- as a casualty of war so that we would give him

18 everything that he would be entitled to. And Stipe said, "I can't," and

19 Stela said, "Please, see what the situation, he has no money." But Stela

20 told me to go to the mortuary and to ask how much it would cost for a

21 coffin and everything, all the other supplies.

22 I had a neighbour whose name was Stanko, he used to be a driver

23 before the war but at that point, he was something -- some kind of a boss

24 there and he gave me a price, 180 German marks for the coffin, and this is

25 what I came to Stela with. Stela gave me that money and I never repaid

Page 7545

1 him.

2 And Stela and Tuta were making a casino, and my sons and I worked

3 quite a bit on that. We were --

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

5 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, my objection is to the

6 fact that the witness now has -- is speaking and testifying about events

7 that occurred after -- well after -- the terms of this indictment, after

8 January of 1994, and also the witness has gone on for some pages now

9 without any direct questions being asked to him. I haven't objected to

10 that. But at this point we're at a situation where the time frame has not

11 been established, and I submit to Your Honours that the time frame of what

12 he now speaks of is well after the terms of this indictment. And I object

13 on those grounds, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, let us hear the story first. And when

15 we evaluate all this evidence, we will take into consideration your

16 objections.

17 Witness, would you please continue.

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, perhaps you will allow me to ask the

19 question, just to direct Mr. Ajanic to some certain points.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.


22 Q. Mr. Ajanic, the day before yesterday, you informed the Trial

23 Chamber that you worked for Stela, not only when you were a prisoner but

24 later when you were not in prison. When --

25 A. That is correct, as a civilian.

Page 7546

1 Q. Yes. And how did it happen that you, being a civilian, not

2 arrested, were compelled to do the job?

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

4 MR. MEEK: With all due apologies, Your Honour, that is a leading

5 and suggestive question. It assumes facts not in evidence. And the word

6 "compelled," I object to the form of that question, Your Honour. And

7 again, until we establish a trial frame, I don't think it's relevant until

8 it's determined to be within the scope of the indictment.

9 JUDGE LIU: It is sort of leading, perhaps. You may rephrase your

10 question and give us the proper time frame.

11 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like to explain to you why I asked this

12 question. First of all, in his testimony the day before yesterday, the

13 witness explained that he performed forced labour for Stela, not only when

14 he was a prisoner but later when he was not in prison. That's why I go on

15 with his story. It's not my invention.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr Par.

17 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] If I recall correctly, Your Honours, the

18 witness did not mention any forced labour, and these are really sort of

19 free interpretations of this. The witness did say that he worked for him,

20 but I don't think that he ever said it was forced labour. So this is

21 really misinterpreting what the witness had said.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, this is also true in this aspect so that we ask

23 you, Mr. Prosecutor, to rephrase your question, and I can tell you we are

24 eager to hear what the testimony of this witness is in this respect.

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much.

Page 7547

1 Q. Mr. Ajanic, I rephrase my question. Did you work for Stela

2 sometime later when you were released from prison? If you can recall,

3 tell the Trial Chamber when it happened.

4 A. I cannot give you the exact information, but I worked on a casino

5 as a free man. I was not imprisoned, and there were men who worked there

6 because the Heliodrom was still operating, so there were prisoners there,

7 too. I worked, as a rule, for money which I never received. And two of

8 my sons also did.

9 Q. And Mr. Ajanic, who invited you to work at casino?

10 A. Stela's brother. He was nicknamed Marta. I don't know his given

11 name, but it may have been his actual name. He ordered me 20 cubic metres

12 of yellow cement, and -- sand, and he was -- that was to be done for 500

13 marks, which I never received. And otherwise, I was bringing in stones

14 and cement, I loaded up debris and rubbish. And Mr. Tuta also came a

15 number of times, and I wanted to approach him to ask him whether I could

16 get some money but I could not go to him because he was always very busy

17 and he always had five or six men around him and I was a little shy to

18 approach him.

19 Q. Mr. Ajanic, let's stop for the moment. Who else was involved in

20 the work at casino? Do you see any prisoners there?

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I am objecting once again,

24 for the record and for Your Honours, that the time frame of this alleged

25 work that this witness has been speaking about was well after the term of

Page 7548

1 this indictment, after -- well into 1994, and I believe the Office of the

2 Prosecutor is well aware of that but they have failed and refused since my

3 last objection to establish a time frame.

4 And besides that, my other objection, Your Honour, is simply that

5 it seems to me we're in an International Criminal Tribunal for the former

6 Yugoslavia concerning serious war crimes and now it almost sounds like

7 we're in a civil courtroom, discussing a contract case of lack of payment

8 of money.

9 But I submit, Your Honours, in good faith that this incident of

10 working for Mr. Stela was in 1995. And if I'm wrong, let my learned

11 colleague tell me that. But if it is 1995, it is, I submit, wholly

12 irrelevant and should not be heard. I appreciate your listening to me,

13 Your Honours.

14 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Prosecutor, first of all, you have to establish

15 the time frame of this incident. Secondly, we want to know whether it's

16 within the time frame of the indictment or not. If it's out of the scope

17 of the indictment, well, I'm afraid we'll reject this evidence.

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I can explain to you. First of all,

19 the witness explained here that some prisoners from Heliodrom were

20 involved in the job, and prisoners in Heliodrom were held until March

21 1994, so it was forced labour for prisoners of war, for prisoners held in

22 Heliodrom. If we have continuation of criminal activities after the time

23 frame, it doesn't deprive us of the possibility of leading this evidence.

24 MR. MEEK: We submit, Your Honours --

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

Page 7549

1 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honour, Mr. President. We submit that

2 in the year of 1995, when this witness was working voluntarily for Mr.

3 Stela, that there were still prisoners and people being held at the

4 Heliodrom so it's still irrelevant. It happened, this occurrence is in

5 1995. And I believe the Prosecutor is well aware of that. And it's well

6 outside the scope of the indictment.

7 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Prosecutor, you have to ask the witness a question

8 about the time frame.


10 Q. Mr. Ajanic, perhaps you will try to recall the time when it

11 happened; 1994, 1995, 1993?

12 A. I can say only this: I cannot exactly recall it, but if I say --

13 if his Defence counsel says that in 1994 everybody was released from the

14 Heliodrom, I can say this: Up until 1997, there were some people held in

15 the underground hangar. And there were some prisoners there, and there

16 were also some private prisons at Tuta's, and these people had their jaws

17 broken there and things like that. I know that, and I guarantee that this

18 was so.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I think that I will not any further questions on

20 this point because the witness tried and explained, to the extent he is

21 able to explain, the situation of his participation in the construction of

22 the casino.

23 A. I can answer this precisely. I can say the precise location of

24 the cafe and the tavern of Dubia where I worked. If I could only see the

25 picture I would be able to explain it all, where they entered and how they

Page 7550

1 entered.

2 Q. Mr. Ajanic, I think that we will not need any further

3 explanations. Thank you for that.

4 And now I would like to return to some points in your previous

5 testimony, just for the sake of clarifying your responses.

6 A. Do you want me to answer? What I forgot to say earlier?

7 Q. No, no, I would like to ask some certain questions relevant to

8 some definite points.

9 Returning to the incident with Harmandic, explained the day before

10 yesterday that you saw him on several occasions on that day. Did you

11 manage to talk to him?

12 A. I did have opportunity to talk to him when we were unloading

13 canned food. The name of the restaurant was Hladovina. He told me Halil,

14 for me, this is the first and the last time. Nobody will ever see me

15 again. While we were unloading those tin cans, Ernest Takac came by, and

16 Dolma. He was nicknamed Dolma, and he hit Neno in the crotch. He fell,

17 and Takac told him several times, "Get up, you old commie," and hit him in

18 the crotch time and again. And then they left, and I was left alone to

19 unload the goods because Neno was in too much pain from the blows.

20 Q. Thank you. Was it the only opportunity of talking to him on that

21 day?

22 A. Well, to the best of my recollection, yes.

23 Q. And one more point just: The day before yesterday, you mentioned

24 a person Splico, and you also explained to the Trial Chamber that on one

25 occasion, one lady, exactly Mujo Pupacic's wife, sent him to your home,

Page 7551

1 and he mistreated you. First of all, I would like to clarify, when did it

2 happen?

3 A. That happened when I had left the Heliodrom. Splico stopped my

4 boy, whose name was Samir, down at the yard. And he told him, "You come

5 with me." But the boy tried to resist, and I just happened to come out,

6 and I saw him with his finger on the trigger, pointing his gun at the boy.

7 And I came to him and grabbed the rifle, and he told me, "You come with

8 me, then." I told him, "I can't, I am working for an HVO soldier whose

9 name is Vili." My job was to clean their offices, and they paid me in

10 canned food, flour, things like that. And he replied, "Let's go and see

11 if that's true." So we went there, but there was no one there. Not Vili,

12 not anyone. And he started hitting me.

13 And I later learned that it was Mujo Pupak's wife who put him --

14 who informed him. And he was in the prison with me. When you entered, he

15 was on the right-hand side, and Bosniak people were on the left. So I

16 learned later it was Mujo Pupak's wife who put him up to it. I remember

17 that I was on the left, upstairs. The other prisoners were on the other

18 side, and the women were in the attic.

19 Q. Mr. Ajanic, do you mean this same Splico that was held in

20 Heliodrom?

21 A. Yes, that's the man.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, my direct examination is over at

23 this point. Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any cross-examination? Mr. Par.

25 Before you start, I have to remind you that this witness is also a

Page 7552

1 victim, and we can see that he is very nervous. So please conduct your

2 cross-examination gently and politely.

3 You may proceed, Mr. Par.

4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will abide by

5 your instructions.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Ajanic.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. I am Jelimir Par, one of the Defence counsel for Vinko Martinovic,

10 Stela. I will be putting to you some questions regarding your testimony.

11 To begin with, can you tell us if you have a nickname by which you

12 are known in Mostar?

13 A. "Lopata," which in English means "spade."

14 Q. Where did you get that nickname? How did it originate?

15 A. Well, to tell you the truth, you are standing up. I can't look at

16 you. Those --

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get the answer.

18 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

19 Q. So if I understood you correctly, it has to do with the manual

20 labour you did; that you were a good worker?

21 A. If I may, I would like to put a question to you.

22 Q. I'm sorry, but the procedure in this courtroom is such that I am

23 putting questions to you.

24 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Just a moment. Something seems to be

25 wrong with the record. My colleagues are pointing out to me that the

Page 7553

1 previous answer of the witness has not been recorded regarding the origin

2 of his nickname. The witness replied that it has to do with his ability

3 to work well with his hands.

4 Q. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I was just telling you that there is a certain procedure here, and

7 we should stick to it.

8 So what was your occupation before the war? Where were you

9 employed?

10 A. I was a manual labourer.

11 Q. Did you work in an enterprise or somewhere else?

12 A. Not for a single day.

13 Q. How did you work, then? Did somebody call you, offer you a job?

14 A. Precisely.

15 Q. Where did you live in 1991?

16 A. In Mostar. That's where I was born. And seven years earlier, I

17 lived in a place 15 kilometres from Nevesinje. The name of the place is

18 Kljuna. That's where my wife is from.

19 Q. When did you come to Mostar then; 1991, 1992?

20 A. In 1992 when the Chetniks -- no offence meant to anyone -- came to

21 Mostar, and I stayed there as long as the Chetnik war was on.

22 Q. I didn't quite understand. Were you expelled from Nevesinje or

23 did you come of your own accord?

24 A. I came of my own accord because I know what Nevesinje and the

25 Kasaba of Nevesinjska meant.

Page 7554

1 Q. Does that mean that you were afraid of the war and the things that

2 might happen to you and that was the reason why you came to Mostar?

3 A. Yes, I came to Mostar.

4 Q. When you arrived at Mostar, how many family members were you in

5 total?

6 A. There were seven members of my family; myself, my wife, and one

7 child was born during the war.

8 Q. And where did you get settled in Mostar? Did you rent a place or

9 find a house?

10 A. It was an old house. It had one large room, a corridor, and a

11 kitchen.

12 Q. Was it an abandoned house or what?

13 A. No, it was owned by Meho Krhan, and I paid him, if you know the

14 old bank notes, the Tito's 500 bill, that's what I paid him each month.

15 Q. We'll have to go slower for the sake of interpretation. I am

16 being warned that interpreters are having trouble keeping up with us.

17 Can you please tell me, what are you doing now for a living?

18 A. The same as before. The same as before the war.

19 Q. Where do you live now?

20 A. Opine 29, opine of Serbian faith.

21 Q. Does that mean that you are living in a house which was

22 Serb-owned?

23 A. It is still Serb-owned, but I have to live somewhere. Beggars are

24 not choosers. I was expelled, and I was caught during the war between the

25 HVO and the Bosnian army.

Page 7555

1 Q. Do you have a formal decision allowing you to move into that house

2 or what?

3 A. No, no decision whatsoever. The landlady came and said, "Halil,

4 you may here as long as it takes for the house to be rebuilt."

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

6 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I think that this question and the problem of the

7 apartment is completely irrelevant to this case. And the question is

8 quite redundant, I think.

9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Par, would you please show us the relevance to the

10 indictment about this witness's apartment. If not, would you please skip

11 this set of questions.

12 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have one more question

13 related to the previous testimony, and I hope it will elucidate the

14 relevance which I believe exists. And if you would allow me, I would like

15 to ask that question.

16 Q. Mr. Ajanic, has someone, perhaps, of the local authorities - the

17 police or anyone else - promised you that you would be allowed to stay in

18 that Serb-owned house or that you would be given another place to live in

19 Mostar after you testify in The Hague? Were there any conversations to

20 that effect?

21 A. No, there was talk that there was a humanitarian organisation

22 which would repair my house in Nevesinje and I would be able to go back.

23 Somebody else's home can never be your own home.

24 Q. How did you contact that humanitarian organisation? Did you do it

25 personally or through official contacts?

Page 7556

1 A. There are organisations, and you know it yourself, who offer money

2 for 10, 15, 20, 30 houses to be rebuilt in a certain village. And in the

3 place where my wife is from originally, the population is Bosniak.

4 Q. My point was, in order to exercise that right, did you gain any

5 points by coming here to testify? Were any promises made to that effect?

6 A. No, no promises. It's just that Eso Tanovic nicknamed Prezle came

7 and said, "Stela's father, called Mujo Tuta, is looking for you."

8 Q. I'm asking you about this loan.

9 A. Which loan?

10 Q. From the humanitarian organisation.

11 A. There is no loan, it's just that they're offering money. Every

12 person whose house had been destroyed, if he cannot rebuild it himself,

13 somebody else can be found to rebuild it. Otherwise, the person has to

14 rent and become a subtenant again.

15 Q. Let us come back to your first arrival to the Heliodrom. You said

16 that the first time you came to the Heliodrom, a list was made of all of

17 you who arrived there, and all your personal effects were taken away,

18 including shoelaces and trouser belts. Is that correct?

19 A. While we --

20 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry, I wanted you, Mr. Par, to go back to the part

21 -- it's incomprehensible to me what this witness was saying because you

22 were talking over him, and the witness didn't get a chance to finish. So

23 I think you should go back and ask him what you are asking about whether

24 any promises were made to this witness in relation to his house if he

25 testified here. And he was saying something about Eso Tanovic, nicknamed

Page 7557

1 somebody. After that, it was incomprehensible. Could we go back to that,

2 please. I think it's appropriate for you to ask those questions and not

3 for us later.

4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Witness, I asked you a moment ago about the way your

6 accommodation is going to be dealt with. I asked you specifically

7 regarding your accommodation. Have you been given any promises by

8 officials somehow connected to your testifying in The Hague? You gave me

9 a certain answer, and I'm now asking you to repeat that answer.

10 A. I'll tell you: You have asked this question more than once

11 whether anybody gave me a remuneration. What possible remuneration could

12 there be when I don't have a penny to leave to my children while I'm away?

13 I left Mostar without a single Deutschmark in my pocket. I'll stop

14 testifying if you continue in this way. I'm not a thief. I'm an honest

15 worker. You can see my hands. You can see the calluses on them. I do

16 honest work to feed my wife and my children. I'd rather leave this

17 courtroom than continue asking questions [as interpreted] in this vein.

18 If you are doing this because you have to as an official of the

19 Courts, aferim but if you are doing this for money, then --

20 Q. Witness, I don't want to upset you. I didn't mean to imply or to

21 insinuate anything, but it is my job to ask certain questions. And I am

22 asking you to take it in that spirit; namely, that I am just doing my job

23 just as you have to do yours. And please, may I ask for your cooperation

24 if we are continuing this examination. We may take a break if you need

25 one, but there is no need for us to interrupt your testimony.

Page 7558

1 A. Mr. Defender, I could have gotten from his father 5, 10, 20,

2 50.000 if I accepted not to go, not to testify. But I didn't do that. I

3 wanted to tell the truth. It weighed heavy upon me. And I'm telling you

4 now I feel a load has come off my back. I want to stop this once and for

5 all. One more word, and I'll take off my headphones and I'll go straight

6 to the prison, if I have to.

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see no way to continue

8 this examination of this witness. I kindly ask the Trial Chamber to help

9 me continue and finish with the questions that I have prepared for this

10 witness. And I asked Trial Chamber's cooperation.

11 A. I will answer if you give me half the money that you got. You

12 keep mistreating me here.

13 JUDGE LIU: Maybe we need a break at this moment, an early break,

14 so that both sides could cool down and think of your strategy of the

15 cross-examination during the break.

16 Mr. Usher, would you please show the witness out of the first.

17 We'll resume at quarter to 4.00.

18 --- Break taken at 3.14 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 3.45 p.m.

20 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Par, before you resume with this witness, I would

21 like to say a few words to you. The first thing is that you have to ask

22 your question very slowly and make a pause after hearing the answer from

23 this witness, because the interpreters are having a very difficult time

24 since your question and answer are always overlapped.

25 Secondly, as I warned you before, you have to try your best to

Page 7559

1 conduct your cross-examination very gently, fairly, and politely to this

2 witness. You might remember that this Chamber has already said that

3 whenever there is a dispute between the witness and the counsel from both

4 sides, we will blame the counsel rather than the witness because you are

5 professional. I know it's very difficult in certain situations, but you

6 have to bear in mind that you are leading the witness rather than the

7 other way around.

8 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understood your warning

9 and advice, and I really am trying not to create a situation in which the

10 witness would polemicise with me. And I'm also trying not to hurt his

11 feelings regarding the experiences that he lived through. However, on the

12 other hand, I must be able to ask certain questions which I deem relevant

13 and on which I have instructions from my client, and I am trying to do

14 that in a way which would be the least irritating to the witness.

15 However, let me add one more one: It is one thing how an attorney

16 should work with a witness, but there are a number of witnesses here - and

17 this may be a typical case - they come to answer to the questions posed by

18 the Prosecution in the direct examination; and when the Defence's turn

19 comes, they feel as if they have to come up with something new and

20 shocking. And after they have done so, they refuse to cooperate. And the

21 counsel finds himself in a very tough situation; that is, we are unable to

22 conduct a proper cross-examination. So I would like to request that in

23 the course of my further cross-examination, that the witness also be

24 observed in terms of his being upset, upset either by my questions or in

25 general, whether this is something that is prompted by the question or

Page 7560

1 this is an attitude. I'm not trying to suggest or claim or accuse anyone

2 of anything, but I invite the Trial Chamber to also pay attention to that

3 aspect of the questioning. Thank you.

4 JUDGE LIU: We'll talk to the witness in our own way.

5 Yes, Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the witness.

6 JUDGE CLARK: Before the witness comes in, can I just say

7 something else. A new practice seems to be developing in this Court on

8 the Defence bench, and that is that we can very clearly hear conversations

9 which are taking place between the Defence counsel for Mr. Naletilic. We

10 can hear every word; we can hear sighs, groans, and exchanges of views. I

11 don't think it's appropriate. Possibly you don't realise how the

12 acoustics work. But I really think that you should modulate your tone

13 first, generally; and secondly that you should refrain from having

14 disputes or conversations while the witness is actually giving evidence

15 because it's very distracting to the translators and to us. I know it's

16 not being done deliberately and towards the end of term we were all tired

17 and things were getting a little more relaxed but let's do it differently,

18 back to the way we were. Thank you.

19 JUDGE LIU: Witness, let me say a few words to you: We understood

20 that you are eager to help us, to give your evidence. We appreciate that

21 very much. However, you have to remember that the purpose for you to come

22 to The Hague is to help us, I mean the Judges, rather than to argue with

23 anybody in this courtroom.

24 You may not be familiar with the practice before this Tribunal, so

25 you may answer the question very slowly and very clearly. There's no

Page 7561

1 hurry. And before you, there is a monitor. Every word you said will be

2 typed and will appear on the monitor. If you see the typing stop, you may

3 answer the question. Thank you. Thank you very much for your

4 understanding.

5 You may proceed, Mr. Par.

6 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Ajanic, please let us continue. During the break, I spoke

8 with my client in regard of the contacts which you have mentioned as

9 having had with his father and regarding his testimony. I asked Vinko

10 Martinovic whether he knew anything about this and whether his father told

11 him anything about this. Vinko Martinovic told me that his father said

12 that a person came to him, Sead Kapetanovic, nicknamed Kapa, that he had

13 come to him, asking on your behalf 10.000 German marks as a condition for

14 your testifying in The Hague. My question to you: Is this correct or

15 not?

16 A. I guarantee, God forbid I can be brought back in a coffin to my

17 children if this is so. And I don't even know this Kapa person.

18 Q. Fine. We can move on.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I see here only nicknamed Kapa, but I don't see

21 the full name of the person who approached the witness, apparently.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par. You may make it clear for us.

23 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] The person's name is last name

24 Kapetanovic, K-A-P-E-T-A-N-O-V-I-C. And the first name is Sead. S-E-A-D.

25 The transcript, Yes, it is now reflecting it correctly, and he nickname is

Page 7562

1 Kapa, K-A-P-A.

2 Very well.

3 Q. Mr. Ajanic, we will move on and we will discuss the Heliodrom now.

4 In your examination-in-chief, day before yesterday, if I remember

5 correctly, you said that when you had arrived at the Heliodrom, you were

6 all registered, that all your personal effects were taken away from you,

7 and all the belts and shoelaces were taken away from the prisoners, too.

8 Is that correct?

9 A. No, I did not see that every prisoner was dealt with that way, but

10 those of us who were taken to the prison. And that in front of the

11 prison, they took our belts and laces.

12 Q. At the Heliodrom, you were assigned to clean rooms, to sweep.

13 A. No, that was the barracks, but not the areas where the prisoners

14 were. The only thing that I did was took some cleaning supplies to the

15 toilets, chlorine. And I was sweeping all the way on the perimeter from

16 where the prisoners were to where the women were. And I also was sweeping

17 on the perimeter.

18 I also knew the man who was a driver in charge there. He was an

19 ethnic Serb, and he had this Tam truck.

20 Q. Can you tell me who assigned you to these tasks?

21 A. Ante Buhovac. And he said this: "Halil, it's better if you did

22 this, because you'll have enough to eat and drink and nobody will mistreat

23 you."

24 Q. And this is how it was. You had better conditions than the other

25 prisoners?

Page 7563

1 A. I can guarantee that with my life. I did give -- I shared my

2 food, that is, my canned food and my bread, with other prisoners.

3 Q. When you came to Stela, you also did the same kind of work?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. These were also the easiest jobs in his unit?

6 A. Yes. It was better to do whatever else than be at the front line.

7 I was never with any army, I was never a member of any military. And on

8 one occasion Stela told me, Halil, it's -- it's better that you do this

9 than do what your little one did. That is, I knew this one young man who

10 now would be 27 and who was with the army at the time when the HVO and the

11 ABiH were still together.

12 Q. Was there a special reason why you, Halil Ajanic, was spared these

13 tough jobs? Did you have any friends with the HVO or something like that?

14 A. Let me tell you this: I was a friend with this same Stela before

15 the war, and I could not believe that he could do something like this to

16 me.

17 Q. And at the Heliodrom, this Buhovac who assigned you to these jobs,

18 did he have any reason, did he have any interest to assign you to these

19 easier tasks?

20 A. Yes. I met him in the period between the Chetnik war and the war

21 between the HVO and the Muslims. At that time, the Muslims and Croats

22 were still together. And I was -- I did something for Kasim Redzic before

23 the war. I was hauling some sand for him, for his house. And then he saw

24 me at the Heliodrom once I got there.

25 Q. During your stay at the Heliodrom, did you collaborate with

Page 7564

1 Buhovac or anybody else of the HVO in any way?

2 A. I did not collaborate in any way, but I did do whatever I was told

3 to do.

4 Q. Do you know that there were cases at the Heliodrom that some of

5 these prisoners somehow collaborated with the HVO in some fashion?

6 A. No. I did not have freedom of movement. I only worked and then

7 went back to my room.

8 Q. What I mean is this: You told us about Hamica, the Albanian, who

9 told the HVO where Harmandic was. Do you remember when you said that

10 during your evidence?

11 A. They came to look for 25 men, but they were looking for Neno

12 Harmandic, whether he was there at the room, but Hamica, the Albanian,

13 said, "I know where he is," and he went with the two Smurfs and they

14 brought back Neno Harmandic and he was driven away in the car.

15 Q. Did Hamica collaborate with the HVO and, in return, was given

16 certain privileges?

17 A. I wouldn't be able to say.

18 Q. Mr. Ajanic, tell me, was that the first time you were in the

19 prison when you arrived at the Heliodrom?

20 A. To be honest with you, I was -- during Tito's reign, I served six

21 and a half years in prison.

22 Q. Can you tell us why?

23 A. I would rather not.

24 Q. Very well. Can you tell us where you served the sentences?

25 A. In Foca and Zenica. The first time, when I was to go to Foca, I

Page 7565

1 was going to go to a mental institution. They diagnosed me as a mental

2 patient, and I have been treated since the war, too, and my treatment has

3 not been complete. And my diagnosed code is 303.

4 Q. When was this?

5 A. In Sokolac. Zivko Gruic was the head of the ward.

6 Q. What year was this, approximately?

7 A. Frankly, I think 1974, 1975, but please don't take me by my word

8 because I tend to forget, but I cannot forget the truth of what happened.

9 I cannot remember dates and years. I don't even know when my son was

10 killed. If you were to point a pistol at me, I still wouldn't be able to

11 tell you.

12 Q. I'm not going to burden you with such details, but please tell me

13 this: Were you treated recently? I didn't quite understand you. You

14 said that you were in treatment but the treatment is not completed.

15 A. Yes. I was at the hospital in the mental ward that I was treated,

16 but that treatment has not been completed.

17 Q. Do you have the release papers with you, by any chance?

18 A. No, I did not bring anything with me. But you can call up this

19 mental clinic in south camp in Mostar, and you can ask them whether this

20 is true or not.

21 Q. Perhaps you know the physician's name?

22 A. I knew it for sure, but I forgot.

23 Q. Now, the reason why I asked you all these things, whether you had

24 been in prison before, I wanted to know whether this experience --

25 previous experience had helped you sort of find your way around here or

Page 7566

1 perhaps it was some acquaintances?

2 A. No, I had brought this sand for money. There were two truckloads

3 of sand, a hundred marks per load, so those were 200 marks in total.

4 Q. Now, at the Heliodrom, were there cases that some prisoners beat

5 other prisoners?

6 A. Yes, of course, we got into fights among ourselves. You see that

7 anywhere; it wasn't only at the Heliodrom.

8 Q. Were you personally in a situation that you personally beat up

9 somebody at the Heliodrom?

10 A. I did not.

11 Q. And were there cases, or perhaps did the HVO ask of you, let's

12 say, Halil, go and beat up such and such person?

13 A. Not at the Heliodrom, but at Stela's, yes. At his basement, I was

14 told to beat up Harmandic.

15 Q. Now, we'll come to that, but I asked you about the Heliodrom.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Now, tell me, were some prisoners in fear of you? Were they

18 afraid of you?

19 A. Yes, they thought that I am informing on them, that I was passing

20 information to the HVO. I noticed that.

21 Q. Did any of the prisoners fear that you might beat them?

22 A. No, I don't think that that was the case.

23 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we please go into the

24 private session because I would like to mention a name which perhaps is

25 better that it be told in private session.

Page 7567

1 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

2 Mr. Par, I think you have to inform this witness what private

3 session is.

4 [Private session]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

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Page 7568













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Page 7569













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Page 7570













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Page 7571

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2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

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18 [redacted]

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20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [Open session]

Page 7572

1 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.

2 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Can we continue now? I would kindly ask you, if you need a break

4 because you're tired or for whatever reason, please tell me so.

5 Can we continue now?

6 A. Yes, we can.

7 Q. This Neno Harmandic whom we have been discussing for two days now,

8 he, too, worked in the police. Is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did he personally ever take you into custody, arrest you, anything

11 like that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell us why he did so?

14 A. For minor frauds.

15 Q. Did he beat you on those occasions, or mistreat you otherwise?

16 A. Yes; he punched me in the heart once.

17 Q. Were you -- did you have a grudge against this Harmandic? Did you

18 want to take your revenge on him?

19 A. Well, I did a little, and at Stela's quarters when they told me to

20 hit him. But when I saw his condition, I couldn't really hit him. And I

21 said I can't, I can't do it.

22 Q. Did you have any reason, or do you have any reason now to feel

23 vengeful about Stela?

24 A. No. We were on good terms even before the war. I have no reason

25 to wish to take any revenge. You can ask Stela himself about that time.

Page 7573

1 As for later times, since the war, opinions have changed.

2 Q. My point is this: Do you think perhaps that Stela is to be blamed

3 for the death of your son? Do you blame him for that accident?

4 A. I do, 100 percent.

5 Q. Are you aware that this unfortunate incident took place on the

6 premises in an apartment occupied by some foreign soldiers?

7 A. Yes, I know that. And I know he was killed by a mercenary

8 nicknamed Svabo [phoen]. He murdered him.

9 Q. So you think it wasn't an accident?

10 A. No, it wasn't. I know what this child meant to me. I know what

11 he was like. He knew -- he knew about things that would happen tomorrow.

12 He was considered to be the smartest child in the community.

13 Q. Please, do you know that it was precisely Stela who called the

14 police and told them to arrest those foreigners?

15 A. I don't know that. I won't mention the name of the man who told

16 me about this, but I was told by the man who had conducted the on-site

17 investigation. I was told by him that this grenade was -- had been rammed

18 into my child's mouth.

19 Q. Do you know that the police, then, came on site, there was an

20 investigation? Are you aware of this?

21 A. Yes, I know all about that. But I also know that the child didn't

22 put the grenade into his own mouth and then lock the door.

23 Q. Do you know where this apartment was located in relation to

24 Stela's quarters?

25 A. Yes, I know. Stela's quarters, that is Stela's tavern which used

Page 7574

1 to belong to a Muslim from Nevesinje, and there was just one house between

2 two places. It belonged to a man called Ribica, a taxi driver with a

3 large family. This site now holds a building more luxurious than this

4 Tribunal.

5 Q. And this place was occupied by foreigners?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So if I understood you correctly, you blame Stela for this?

8 A. I do. 100 percent. First of all, if it was my child, as it was,

9 Stela should have driven him away and told him, "You have no business

10 being here," because it was an 8-year-old.

11 Q. Do you know that Stela later had all those foreigners arrested,

12 that he delivered them to the police, and that they were never members of

13 his unit again?

14 A. No, I don't.

15 Q. Are you angry with Stela because of this money that has never been

16 paid to you for the work you did at the casino?

17 A. Let me ask you: You would be probably angry if you missed one

18 payment for one single hearing, let alone two months of hard labour you

19 did together with your two sons.

20 Q. I understand you to mean that you are angry. Is that correct?

21 A. Perfectly correct.

22 Q. Who was supposed to pay you for that work at the casino? With

23 whom did you negotiate? Was it the people who were around at the casino

24 or was it Stela?

25 A. It was Stela and his brother, Marta.

Page 7575

1 Q. Did you ever remind Stela that he hadn't paid you? Was he aware

2 of that?

3 A. Well, let me tell you this: I was to be paid 500 Deutschmarks

4 for the two truckfuls of sand I had brought his brother. I was never

5 given that money. And later, Stela invited me to clear up the premises of

6 that building -- give me a minute to think. And he -- this Stela

7 commissioned fine sand to be brought to the site, and the rubble to be

8 cleared out. And he also ordered some prefab construction elements and

9 mosaic stone for that building. You can ask him about all of this.

10 Q. I did. He said that that's true.

11 A. I swear by the grave of my late son.

12 Q. All right. All right.

13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know when we are

14 supposed to take the break. And if someone could possibly remind me so

15 that I can plan the rest of my examination.

16 JUDGE LIU: We'll sit until 5.00.

17 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness, let us go back to that moment when Harmandic was brought

19 to the office where you were together with Stela at that moment. If I

20 remember correctly, you said that it was Takac who brought him? He said

21 that Harmandic had tried to escape and Stela said take him to the basement

22 and don't beat him. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes. Ernest Takac addressed him as, "Comrade General."

24 Q. Speaking about generals, was Stela wearing any signs of rank?

25 A. I don't know. I was found unfit to serve in the army.

Page 7576

1 Q. My colleague is pointing out to me that the record is not quite

2 correct. You said, "Comrade General."

3 A. The man said this guy Neno Harmandic had tried to escape. Neno

4 said, "I didn't, Stela, I promise." But Stela replied, "Take him

5 downstairs and don't beat him." However, when he was taken away, I was

6 still downstairs --

7 Q. We'll come back to that.

8 JUDGE LIU: We have some problems. It seems to me that we have

9 some questions and answers mingled together.

10 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I see what the problem is, and I'll try

11 to clarify it once again.

12 Q. Witness, I asked you, did he address him as "Comrade General"?

13 A. He addressed him as, "Comrade, General."

14 Q. And it was Ernest Takac who addressed him this way?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. That used to be the form of address accepted formally in the

17 former Yugoslav army?

18 A. Please do me a favour. I don't know about these things because I

19 never did my military service.

20 Q. After a while, is it the case that Stela left with this Mujo to

21 take him -- to take a bath or something? Is that correct?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did they go anywhere?

24 A. Yes, they did.

25 Q. Did Mujo Tuta confirm to you that he had been taken by Stela to

Page 7577

1 take a bath at his house?

2 A. Yes. And also to do some repair work on his car, because Mujo

3 Tuta was a mechanic. He did, indeed, have a bath, and when he came back,

4 he was dressed in a totally new set of clothing.

5 Q. Was there anyone else together with you in that office at the

6 moment when Ernest brought Harmandic?

7 A. No, just Stela.

8 Q. Now, let us revert to the incident when those soldiers told you to

9 hit Harmandic. Did you hit him once, at least?

10 A. No, not a single time, when I saw what condition he was in. But

11 before that, Harmandic told me himself, "Halil, hit me, hit me. You have

12 a lot of children to think of, and I'm finished anyway. I'm a goner."

13 And the soldiers had told me, "Lopata, you give him a bit of a beating,

14 too. If you don't, you'll get a beating yourself."

15 Q. Mr. Ajanic, did you later hear at the Heliodrom that the story

16 circulated among prisoners to the effect that you had beaten Harmandic?

17 Have you ever heard about that?

18 A. No, I never heard there was a story like that. And I have

19 witnesses to confirm that I didn't, nor would I ever hit a man when he was

20 down. On the contrary, I would try to help him.

21 Q. All right, fine. Who told the prisoners at Heliodrom the story of

22 what really happened concerning Harmandic? Was it yourself?

23 A. It was I and Mujo Tuta. There could have been no one else. Maybe

24 some stories were told by one soldier to another, and then it was picked

25 up by soldiers who served at the Heliodrom, you know how these things go.

Page 7578












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Page 7598

1 Maybe somebody said that Lopata had helped in the beating. Every army -

2 and it was my father who told me this a long time ago - has its

3 informants.

4 Q. But it is still true that you told this story to the other

5 prisoners at the Heliodrom?

6 A. I am not afraid of the truth ever. There is a God above me.

7 Q. I'm asking you this because we have already heard the testimony of

8 many other former prisoners who confirmed that you had told them this

9 story, and specifically there was a Witness U who was here on the 25th and

10 the 26th of December [as interpreted]. He said that it was he who had

11 saved your life after you had taken those pills, and he told us that you

12 told the story of this incident to the other prisoners.

13 A. You mean what happened to Neno Harmandic? Yes, yes. I certainly

14 did. That much is true. First of all, you can ask Stela himself whether

15 I beat that man. He will tell you, and then you may also ask him whether

16 he had told me to beat him.

17 Q. Since we have already mentioned this Witness U who saved you

18 before you went to the hospital in this incident with your suicide

19 attempt, tell me, was it really an attempt to take your own life, to

20 poison yourself, or what?

21 A. Yes, it was a suicide attempt, an attempt at poisoning, because it

22 was all the worst. My wife had gave birth to nine children, some of them

23 died, were killed - God bless my late Muhamed - and you should go and see

24 what condition the rest of my children are in. And when I was leaving my

25 home to come here, she fell to the ground -- she fainted, she was so weak.

Page 7599

1 Q. So it was a suicide attempt?

2 A. There are moments when you wish that you no longer exist, and when

3 you have a child, all you wish is to hold him and to cherish him, and then

4 they leave too soon to the heavens.

5 Q. Mr. Ajanic, do you know anyone from this family Harmandic? Have

6 you ever seen any one of them or talked to them?

7 A. Yes, I have, with his son. And I told him the same story I'm

8 telling you here now, and I swear that it is the truth.

9 Q. So when was it, approximately, when you talked to him?

10 A. I really don't know. It wasn't once that I talked to him. It was

11 perhaps 30, 40 times that I did that. And I'm going to go on to say this

12 to anyone, what happened and what his death was like.

13 Q. His son works for the police. Is that correct?

14 A. I think that he is the same as his father was, and this is why I

15 say whatever goes around comes around. And you know, whoever -- it could

16 be a policeman or an agent or something like that. And there is Stela,

17 but from Stela -- from his son, two Stelas develop.

18 Q. I'm just waiting for the interpretation.

19 Did you talk to Harmandic's son at the police because he was a

20 policeman?

21 A. In the street.

22 Q. In the street?

23 A. Yes. First off, he never put on a uniform, and I don't know if he

24 is a policeman. It is -- but he can only be what his father was or what

25 his uncle was because his father -- he, too, worked in plainclothes. And

Page 7600

1 I think you should just stop asking me these questions.

2 Q. If you're tired --

3 A. No, I can go on like this for five days, but it is all useless.

4 I'm answering everything you're saying. I'm being polite to you, and I'm

5 saying everything in a truthful way, and I swear I will go on telling the

6 truth until the end. But with all due respect, this is all provocative.

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can I ask to take a break

8 now so that I can consolidate my questions and then I'll be finished.

9 THE WITNESS: Can we just please go on so that I can be done and

10 then I can have the burden lifted off my shoulders?

11 JUDGE LIU: We have made an order that we will break at 5.00.

12 There's only about 10 minutes to go. Mr. Par, would you please continue

13 for another 10 minutes; then we'll break.

14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

15 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Did you talk to Harmandic's wife?

17 A. I don't know her.

18 Q. Now, did the police ask you -- question you about this Harmandic

19 incident?

20 A. Not the police, but those who did were -- how shall I call them?

21 It wasn't the police. I don't know if it was the state security or that

22 service for the missing. I can't explain this. But I did talk to the

23 people who really were in charge of that for the casualties of war. I

24 think that that's what it was.

25 Q. Was it the AID? Do you know what AID is?

Page 7601

1 A. How should I know?

2 Q. The AID is some kind of a secret service of the Muslims.

3 A. It is possible. You know what, it could be Jesus Christ, but I

4 still wouldn't know.

5 Q. This is what I'm trying to ask you: First of all, I'm trying to

6 ask you whether these police talked because I want to see whether the

7 police suspected you of having been involved in the beating of Harmandic.

8 A. Me? No. Not me. But who knows? Maybe they even thought that I

9 did. Who's to know? But the truth remains the truth.

10 Q. What do you mean?

11 A. This is what I mean: When Stela told me that my child was killed,

12 I wanted to kill him. But I would have lost all my family.

13 Q. In your evidence, you said that the last time you saw Harmandic he

14 was alive?

15 A. Yes. He was alive, covered with boards in a canal. And the

16 police was -- they were filling buckets with water and pouring it over him

17 through the boards. And as we were starting off to the Heliodrom, I saw

18 as they placed him in that canal alive.

19 Q. You personally never saw him again?

20 A. I never laid my eyes on him again. I only heard that at the

21 Sarajevska bank, that he was transferred there to the square near the HIT

22 department store. And from there -- he was dead then. Then he

23 disappeared, and nobody knows where he is buried. Or perhaps he is even

24 alive, but I have not seen him.

25 Q. Just a second so I can confer.

Page 7602

1 Mr. Ajanic, in closing, let me just ask you this: Are you in

2 treatment? Do you receive any medication now?

3 A. I can tell you --

4 Q. Just go ahead, tell us.

5 A. I am taking aspirin, .3, to calm down.

6 Q. Did you take any other medication in recent days?

7 A. No. I only missed one pill the day I arrived.

8 Q. My colleague has asked me, was it aspirin or Apaurin; what did you

9 take?

10 A. Apaurin.

11 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this completes my

12 cross-examination, and I thank you, Mr. Ajanic.

13 A. Thank you. And don't forget, I'm a little man, but I'm still

14 strong-minded [as interpreted].

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence of Mr.

17 Naletilic considers that our learned friends have exhausted the questions

18 and we will ask no additional questions of this witness.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. It's almost 5.00 at this moment,

20 so shall we break now at this point? I saw everybody nodding.

21 Mr. Usher, would you take the witness out of the room first.

22 We'll resume at 5.30.

23 --- Recess taken at 4.56 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 5.31 p.m.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par.

Page 7603

1 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would just like to

2 inform the Chamber that, during the break, we had a correction in the

3 record. Page 42, line 21, there was the witness's comment. We believe

4 that the witness said something completely different; not that he was a

5 little man, but in Bosnian what he said is a word that is very similar

6 sounding but it means something akin to crazy, mad. I consulted with the

7 interpreters. The interpreters did acknowledge the error. I have also

8 discussed it with the OTP, as did the interpreter. So now I'm just laying

9 it out before the Trial Chamber and want to know whether we should

10 consider this now as a corrected transcript or shall we recall the witness

11 to deal with this?

12 JUDGE LIU: Are there any objections?

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I think that we should leave it to

14 the interpreters, and they will check it all and perhaps they will inform

15 us.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Par, thank you very much for informing us

17 about this correction in the transcript. But we still have the witness

18 with us. For the fairness to the other party and to this Trial Chamber,

19 if you have some problems with the translation in the transcript, you may

20 have another opportunity to ask this witness about what he said, rather

21 than directly approaching to the interpreters to have it corrected.

22 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] In that case, with permission of the

23 Chamber, I'm going to direct that question again to the witness, even

24 though I have completed my cross-examination.

25 JUDGE LIU: Bring the witness, please, Mr. Usher.

Page 7604

1 Can you hear me, Witness?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE LIU: I'm sorry we have to keep you a little bit longer in

4 this courtroom.

5 Yes, Mr. Par.

6 Further cross-examined by Mr. Par:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ajanic, I have no further questions for you,

8 but with the permission of the Trial Chamber, I'm going to try to resolve

9 with you something that I think was entered in error in the transcript,

10 and I would like to -- like you to tell me whether I'm right or not. It

11 is something that you said just before you left the courtroom. As I

12 understood it, you said, "I may be crazy but I still have my wits around

13 me." Can you tell us exactly what you said?

14 A. That's exactly what I said. I have a paper to prove that I am

15 crazy but I am still lucid enough and my mind is still together enough.

16 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ajanic, and thank you,

17 Your Honours. I think that we have resolved this issue.

18 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination?

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour, a couple of questions.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

21 MR. PORIOUVAEV: To Mr. Ajanic.

22 Re-examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

23 Q. Mr. Ajanic, I just want to clarify one situation. You explained

24 to the Trial Chamber that at some point, Harmandic was put in some canal

25 and soldiers took buckets and poured him with water. I would like you to

Page 7605

1 describe that canal. What do you mean by "canal"? Because "canal" is a

2 very broad notion.

3 A. I'll tell you. This is like a canal, like a pit in a garage.

4 They placed him in it and, on top of him, they placed boards. But to the

5 left, there was a hose, and there was a tap there. And they poured water

6 in this plastic thing that kids are bathed in, and then they said, "Neno

7 where are you?" and he said, "I'm here," and then they poured water in

8 that direction from which the voice came.

9 Q. Thank you. My next question will be: During the

10 cross-examination, you mentioned the person whose name is Miro Kolobara.

11 Did you know Miro Kolobara?

12 A. Yes. He is now driver for Cash, and I did not know him before

13 then, from before the war.

14 Q. Did you know him during the war?

15 A. During the war, towards the end of war, when Mujo Pupak was at the

16 Heliodrom and when he came with his daughter to bring him bags with food

17 or change of clothes or something. And she, too, was wearing an HVO

18 uniform. Then later on, I saw him in his own house, that is, in the house

19 of Mujo Pupak, that is.

20 Q. "Miro," is it a real first name? Does this name exist in your

21 language, "Miro," or is it a shortened name?

22 A. Such a name does exist, and the last name "Kolobara" does exist,

23 too, so it's not shortened.

24 Q. Okay, thank you.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, Mr. Par.

Page 7606

1 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I don't recall that that name and that

2 person were ever brought up in the cross-examination.

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, yes, it was brought up in the examination.

4 JUDGE LIU: Would you please show us where it is.

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, it is just talking about some secretary, Mr.

6 Kolobara, and this secretary was a relative of some Pupak or something

7 like that. We have it. I'm sorry, I don't have it just on the monitor

8 now.

9 A. When he said that he was afraid that I would see him --

10 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour, it's page 45 --

11 JUDGE LIU: Speak to the microphone.

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV: 45, line 18. I don't invent things here in the

13 courtroom.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par.

15 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am not trying to invent

16 either, but I never mentioned that name because I'm not interested in that

17 person. I don't even know who it is. I allowed that the witness, in his

18 open-ended narrative, did mention this, but it was never a subject of my

19 cross-examination. And I have nothing else to add.

20 JUDGE LIU: The Prosecutor said you mentioned the person whose

21 name is Miro Kolobara, which means that the witness mentioned that name.

22 He did not blame you in this matter.

23 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Page 29 as well.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

25 Mr. Meek.

Page 7607

1 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, procedurally, I think the witness was just

2 called back to verify one word he said in a sentence that he gave that was

3 not even to a question, and I don't believe it's proper for any further

4 cross-examination or redirect examination. He was just brought back to

5 explain one word. He wasn't asked a question.

6 JUDGE CLARK: That's not accurate.

7 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I have been always taught that it was allowed

8 during the redirect. I'm sorry.

9 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Mr. Prosecutor.


11 Q. Mr. Ajanic, my learned friend just asked you if it was the fact

12 that a person with a nickname "Kapa" approached you and tried to encourage

13 you to testify before the Trial Chamber for money. Could you tell me if

14 there was anyone else --

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, Mr Par.

16 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I'm going to try to be very accurate

17 about what I had asked so that we have a clear record. I said that my

18 client, Vinko Martinovic, during the break, when asked, told me that the

19 person nicknamed Kapa - Sead Kapetanovic, that is - had come to his

20 father, asking for 10.000 German marks on behalf of this witness here in

21 order for him not to testify here against him. That is, that this person

22 Kapetanovic had asked, on his behalf, the money of Vinko Martinovic, and

23 this is what I confronted the witness with. I think that that is what I

24 had asked.

25 JUDGE LIU: In this respect, we would like to make an order.

Page 7608

1 During the cross-examination, at least on three occasions, namely, line 22

2 of page 16; line 17 of page 18; and the third line of page 22 in the

3 transcript, the witness mentioned the alleged attempts of offering some

4 money for him to come to testify -- or not to testify before this

5 Tribunal. We Judges deliberately avoid asking any questions in this

6 regard, taking into consideration of the main subject of the

7 cross-examination as well as the personal conditions of the witness.

8 This Trial Chamber now orders the witness remain in The Hague for

9 another day and the Prosecutor take sworn statements on those alleged

10 incidents with the presence of the representative from the Registrar. And

11 this Trial Chamber further orders the statements be submitted to this

12 Trial Chamber. It is so decided.

13 So you may skip this question.

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Of course, Your Honour. I will abide by your

15 ruling. I have no further questions.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any questions from Judges? Judge Clark.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Ajanic, I have a few issues that I would like

19 you to clarify, please. You told us that you knew Mr. Neno Harmandic for

20 about 20 years before the war, and you described to us that he used to

21 investigate frauds and thefts and, I think, robberies. Was he what we

22 would call a detective, a plainclothes detective?

23 A. Precisely. He never wore a uniform. And we called people like

24 that agents in Herzegovina.

25 JUDGE CLARK: Was he an agent or a detective during the Tito

Page 7609

1 regime?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE CLARK: And after the death of Mr. Tito, did he continue,

4 right up to the war, being an agent?

5 A. Yes, he did.

6 JUDGE CLARK: Now, when you were in the prison at the Heliodrom,

7 were you aware that Mr. Harmandic was also a prisoner prior to the day

8 that you are talking about, the day where you believe he was killed?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE CLARK: So can I understand, so we're perfectly clear about

11 it, that the first day you met him in the prison was the day on which you

12 believe he was killed?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE CLARK: You also described how two brothers - who I think

15 the pronunciation I heard was brothers called Smurf - were looking

16 specifically for him.

17 A. Yes, they were looking specifically for him.

18 JUDGE CLARK: Do you know who these brothers Smurf were?

19 A. I didn't know it at the time. I learned later that those two

20 Smurf brothers were the children of Ivan Culo, who did the same sort of

21 work that I did. He was a carriage driver and later he became a truck

22 driver.

23 JUDGE CLARK: Is there any significance to Mr. Harmandic's fate in

24 the fact that these two Smurf brothers were the children of Ivan Culo? Was

25 he arrested or imprisoned by any investigation conducted by Mr. Harmandic?

Page 7610

1 A. I wouldn't know that.

2 JUDGE CLARK: Was it your impression that when Mr. Harmandic

3 became aware that he was being sought, that he was afraid, and is that why

4 he hid himself?

5 A. Well, of course he did.

6 JUDGE CLARK: Did you speak to him or observe him in the truck on

7 the way to where you had to work that day? I think you said that you went

8 to Stela's.

9 A. Yes. He was on that truck, but nowhere near me. I didn't see

10 him. He was the last to get on the truck.

11 JUDGE CLARK: Now, if I bring you back to when you were in the

12 building which you called Stela's, and you described to us what Ernest

13 Takac said about Mr. Harmandic, I think you said that he said -- Mr. Stela

14 said take Harmandic to the basement but don't hurt him.

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE CLARK: How long after that command did you hear the

17 screaming?

18 A. Two or three minutes later.

19 JUDGE CLARK: And I know this is difficult and it's many years

20 ago, but can you assist me on this: How much time went by before you

21 heard the screaming and when you were called down into the basement? When

22 you described that the soldiers called, "Lopata, come down here," and that

23 Mr. Stela was in the basement, how long elapsed from between when he was

24 taken first to the basement and when you were called down?

25 A. Well, it may have been half an hour or an hour. I'm really sorry,

Page 7611

1 I can't give you an accurate estimate. But somewhere around that.

2 JUDGE CLARK: That's very helpful because I wanted to know whether

3 you were talking about two or three minutes or a period. So you think it

4 could have been between half an hour and an hour. And that is helpful.

5 THE WITNESS: Please, may I say just one thing. Three minutes

6 after Stela said, "Take him downstairs and don't beat him," the screaming

7 started. Half an hour or an hour later, they called out to me, laughing,

8 "Lopata, come over here." And Stela was among those people. He told me,

9 "Come on, hit me, or you'll get the same treatment."

10 JUDGE CLARK: You described afterwards how Stela left with another

11 prisoner to allow him to have a bath, and he came back later. During that

12 period, was Mr. Harmandic moved from the basement?

13 A. Yes, he was, to wash the car and - excuse the expression - two or

14 three men urinated in a beer can and then gave it to Neno to drink. And

15 one of those put him -- put his thing in his mouth and asked him, "Do you

16 like this?" And Neno answered -- and he answered, "Yes, I do," but that

17 was under duress.

18 JUDGE CLARK: Judge Liu has sought clarification through me of

19 something you said a few minutes ago. When you said that the soldiers

20 were laughing and they said -- I'm reading the transcripts -- "Lopata,

21 come over here," and Stela was among those people. And you said, "He told

22 me, 'Come on, hit me,'" it says in the translation. Should it be -- what

23 should that be? "He told me, 'Come on...'" Who told you?

24 A. Stela told me, "Hit him," and I said, "I can't. You can do with

25 me what you like, but I can't."

Page 7612

1 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. And the reason that we asked you that

2 question again and it's not that I want you to go over the evidence, it's

3 that on the translation on the transcripts, it was,"Hit me," but what

4 you're saying now is that he said, "Come on, hit him," meaning Mr.

5 Harmandic.

6 So if --

7 A. Harmandic himself said, "Halil, come on, hit me, hit me, you have

8 a lot of children to think of, and I'm a goner anyway." And before that,

9 Stela ordered me to hit him.

10 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.

11 If I can return to my previous question, when Mr. Harmandic was

12 taken out of the basement and you described the incident with the soldiers

13 and the empty cans of beer, forcing him to drink urine and the other

14 outrages, can I take it that Mr. Stela was not there at the time?

15 A. No, he wasn't there with them. He had taken Mujo Tuta to have his

16 bath and to repair his car.

17 JUDGE CLARK: When Mr. Stela came back, where was Mr. Harmandic?

18 A. He was back down in the basement.

19 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Ajanic, I want to say to you that I'm, as a

20 Judge, very impressed by your willingness to come here and use your own

21 name and not ask for any witness protection. We're very impressed by

22 that. There's just one last question that I want to ask you.

23 You said that you have been treated for a psychiatric condition

24 for a number of years. Do you know what your psychiatric condition is?

25 What are you being treated for?

Page 7613

1 A. I'll tell you in all honesty, since I had a great misfortune,

2 article 255, embezzlement of social property, and I could have served 5 to

3 15 years under Tito's rule for that. But the psychiatrist, Dr. Herceg,

4 who knew my father, helped me, helped me to get a different sentence; that

5 is, to be sent not to prison but to a mental institution, and that way,

6 they couldn't give me more than three years. And you have your own

7 psychiatrists and you can ask them if what I am saying is true.

8 JUDGE CLARK: I don't for one moment question what you are saying,

9 Mr. Ajanic. I just wondered as you are being treated on an ongoing basis

10 at the moment, I can possibly guess what your condition is, but has your

11 psychiatrist ever told you the name of the condition for which he is

12 treating you? Is it, for instance, anxiety or post-traumatic stress or

13 schizophrenia or depression or any of the other well-known psychiatric

14 conditions? Do you know?

15 A. Let me tell you this: Tendency to aggression, that's what it is.

16 And in the conclusion, it says that I tend to get out of control when I

17 see a uniform.

18 JUDGE CLARK: I thank you for your assistance.

19 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge Clark's questions?

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I have no further questions.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Par?

22 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I have no questions. I just want to

23 check one thing in the transcript. As far as I can see, the one part of

24 the witness's answer was not recorded. The witness mentioned considerably

25 diminished responsibility from time to time, sporadically.

Page 7614

1 THE WITNESS: That is my diminished ability.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

3 Witness, thank you very much for coming here to give your

4 evidence. We appreciate your effort very much. We all wish you good luck

5 in your future. The usher will show you out of the room.

6 THE WITNESS: May I say one thing in conclusion, seeing how I'm

7 here already?


9 THE WITNESS: You may rest assured - I'm a man who had never been

10 on a plane before - but I came here to tell the truth. You may rest

11 assured that everything I said is the truth. And if I had any fears, I

12 wouldn't have come. And I would have certainly not spoken in public. I

13 would have at least asked for some measure of protection, and I know, now

14 that I come back to Mostar, there may be some trouble or something, but

15 I'll try to deal with that.

16 And I would still like to ask my question of the lawyer, if I

17 may.

18 JUDGE LIU: Let me talk to the witness first.

19 Witness, we appreciate very much about your courage and about your

20 cooperation for coming to The Hague to help us, the Judges. As a rule of

21 this Tribunal, it is the Defence counsel who are entitled to ask you the

22 questions, and you are in the position to answer those questions,

23 unfortunately. I hope you could understand.

24 THE WITNESS: I understand very well. And I am very glad to have

25 met you all, and I apologise, but I have to tell you that I have a long

Page 7615

1 memory and I remember a lot of things. When I first came into this

2 courtroom, however, and when I saw Stela, I couldn't remain calm and

3 indifferent. Thank you anyway for letting me speak.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may leave now.

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Thank you very much.

6 [Witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender

8 through this witness?

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I would like to tender the only

10 document that I have. That is Exhibit P15.7.

11 JUDGE LIU: Can you tell us what it's about?

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV: It's Stela's office, as described by the witness.

13 JUDGE LIU: Any objections, Mr. Par?

14 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. It is admitted into the evidence, but I

16 believe that this photo has already been admitted. Is that right?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, it is already admitted. It was admitted on

18 the 18th of September 2001.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

20 Are there any documents to admit?

21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] None whatsoever, Mr. President. Thank

22 you.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

24 Well, we are ahead of schedule, about 50 minutes early. Tomorrow

25 morning, we will hear another witness, or are you ready to call another

Page 7616

1 witness today?

2 MR. STRINGER: We are prepared to proceed with the next witness,

3 Mr. President, who is an expert witness. And I think that it would be our

4 preference to continue until 7.00, as scheduled, if the Trial Chamber is

5 willing to do that, and the interpreters and the other technical people as

6 well.

7 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Stringer, is this a witness that we ought to

8 have a report in front of us for?

9 MR. STRINGER: That's correct, Your Honour. I believe that they

10 should be with you already, in a blue binder.

11 JUDGE LIU: Are there any protective measures that you are going

12 to ask for this witness?

13 MR. STRINGER: No, I believe that the last information given to

14 the Trial Chamber was that he was requesting protective measures, but that

15 is not the case. The witness, Dr. Zujo, will testify in open session.

16 And Mr. President, with your permission before the witness enters

17 he courtroom, I perhaps could make just a couple introductory remarks

18 about the witness, the expert witness report which is on the Bench under

19 rule 94 bis and perhaps inform the Trial Chamber of the specific parts of

20 the indictment which are relevant to the testimony.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

22 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, the next witness is Dr. Hamza Zujo.

23 He is being called by the Prosecution to offer expert testimony pursuant

24 to Rule 94 bis. The Trial Chamber may recall that, pursuant to that Rule,

25 the Prosecution submitted a statement or a report of Dr. Zujo to the Trial

Page 7617

1 Chamber. It was filed on the 19th of October of last year. And pursuant

2 to a decision issued on the 27th of November last year by this Trial

3 Chamber, you found the statement to be relevant and admitted the statement

4 at that time.

5 Subsequently, counsel for the accused Vinko Martinovic requested

6 permission to cross-examine Dr. Zujo, and the Prosecution had no objection

7 to that. And so now, Dr. Zujo is present and is prepared to testify

8 before the Trial Chamber today.

9 What we have done is to mark Dr. Zujo's 94 bis statement, which

10 was previously admitted pursuant to the Trial Chamber's decision. We have

11 given it a number, 877.1, and that is the report that is on the Bench. And

12 the report refers to a variety of documents which are attached to it,

13 marked and tabbed individually.

14 I should add that one of the documents, it's the document K which

15 is in your binder, is not referred to in Dr. Zujo's report. The annexes

16 are generally the report and findings made by Dr. Zujo and his colleague,

17 Dr. Dobraca, concerning exhumations and autopsies which are of relevance

18 to this case. Each of those is contained in the binder in English,

19 French, and the original language, B/C/S. The final one, we did not have

20 it in French at the time that the report was filed with the Registry, and

21 subsequently, then, the last of the autopsy reports was received by us in

22 French translation, so we have simply added that, and it is the last

23 document in this binder, which is marked as annex K. It has never been

24 previously marked and so we gave that a separate exhibit number, which is

25 877.2. But we will tender those at the conclusion of Dr. Zujo's

Page 7618

1 testimony.

2 Mr. President, this testimony is relevant to count 1, the

3 persecution count, paragraph 27; it's also relevant to counts 2 through 8,

4 specifically paragraph 42, which relates to the death of a person named

5 Aziz Colakovic who is alleged to have been killed while being used as a

6 human shield on the Bulevar; and finally, the evidence is relevant to

7 counts 13 through 17, paragraphs 51 and 52, which relate to the killing

8 and/or serious bodily injury inflicted to Nenad Harmandic.

9 I will add that the third of the three autopsy reports which Dr.

10 Zujo will refer to relates to his examination of the body of a person

11 identified as Mustafa Krilic. Mr. Krilic is not mentioned in the

12 indictment as a victim, however, there has been testimony about Mr. Krilic

13 that has come in from other witnesses during the course of the trial. So

14 we therefore felt that we should bring this autopsy report to the

15 attention of the Trial Chamber or to include it within the testimony of

16 Dr. Zujo.

17 And so with that, Mr. President, I'm ready to proceed with the

18 witness.

19 JUDGE LIU: One question I want to ask you is that are there any

20 English translations for Document J, K, in the binders we received?

21 MR. STRINGER: Document J, K?

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Document J and K.

23 MR. STRINGER: Perhaps I should have been more clear. The last

24 three documents, Mr. President, are the autopsy report regarding Mustafa

25 Krilic. So that document I is the document in English, Document J is the

Page 7619

1 same document in B/C/S, and annex K is the same document in French. So

2 although we have annexes going through K, it's actually less documents

3 than that. We have just submitted three autopsy reports, each in three

4 languages. So that A, B, and C are all the autopsy report of Harmandic in

5 the three languages, et cetera.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 Mr. Par.

8 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm going to lodge an

9 objection on the part where Mustafa Krilic documents, that is, his autopsy

10 documents are offered in record and Dr. Zujo's report. We believe that

11 this is not part of the indictment, it is outside the scope of the

12 indictment, and the reasoning that my learned friend, Mr. Stringer, has

13 just offered now is insufficient. And on the basis of that, we cannot go

14 into the issues that are outside of the scope of the indictment and bring

15 in this autopsy through the back door and create certain impressions that

16 may be damaging to our clients. I think that this is not acceptable.

17 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I absolutely agree with

19 my learned friend Mr. Par, and in addition, I have to say that if my

20 learned friend was going to bring in the autopsy of Mr. Krilic, he at

21 least should have let the Defence counsel know about it.

22 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, may I reply?

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

24 MR. STRINGER: I'm disappointed with the objections for these

25 reasons: First of all, the Krilic autopsy report was attached to the 94

Page 7620

1 bis statement of Dr. Zujo that was filed with the Registry and provided to

2 the Trial Chamber on the 19th of October. So there's no surprise now

3 about where we intended to go. The Defence has known since the 19th of

4 October that we were including the Krilic autopsy report among the other

5 two. That's number one.

6 Secondly, neither accused filed any response or objection to the

7 94 bis statement when we filed it. Under the Rule, the Defence can either

8 file an objection, in which case the Trial Chamber can rule on it, or they

9 can not file an objection. Neither accused filed any response. And it

10 was on that basis that the Trial Chamber admitted the statement into

11 evidence in its decision of 27 November. Now, it turned out that one of

12 the accused, in fact, approached the Prosecution and then the Trial

13 Chamber and apologized, indicating that they had wanted to or had intended

14 to file a response, had not done so within the time limits imposed by the

15 Rule and asked, first of all, the Prosecutor whether we would oppose their

16 request to bring the witness here for cross-examination. I think Mr.

17 Scott did the right thing and the fair thing, which was to agree that they

18 could cross-examine the witness if they wanted to, but in fact, they are

19 not even entitled to this cross-examination today if one construes 94 bis

20 literally, which is to say no objection was filed. And under the letter

21 of the Rule, the statement comes in and serves as a substitute for the

22 testimony of the expert. And that's very well where we could be today,

23 had not the Prosecution agreed to not oppose the Defence request to bring

24 the witness for cross-examination anyway, even though they didn't file any

25 timely objection.

Page 7621

1 So I am disappointed to hear an objection today about the scope of

2 the expert report when, number one, it has always included reference to

3 the Krilic autopsy report; and secondly, since the Prosecution felt that

4 it was being flexible, fair, and considerate to the Defence by even

5 agreeing to allow the witness to come, be subject to cross-examination

6 today when, in fact, the witness might never have had to come.

7 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Stringer, can I say something first before

8 anybody objects. First of all, can I direct the same remark to you that I

9 addressed to Mr. Krsnik yesterday. It is counsel's place to make

10 submissions to the court and not to express personal feelings of

11 disappointment or generosity. If the evidence in this case, as with this

12 witness, as has been submitted by Mr. Par, is outside the scope of the

13 indictment, are you saying that the failure on the part of the Defence to

14 raise appropriate objections at the time validates your attempt to

15 introduce evidence which is not relevant? I would like you to argue that.

16 It seems to be what you are urging on the court, that we are to disregard

17 the admissibility or otherwise of this aspect of the witness's evidence

18 because of the failure on the part of the Defence to act appropriately.

19 MR. STRINGER: Judge Clark, I failed to add the other part of what

20 I had intended to add, and forgive me if I got a bit carried away. When I

21 informed the Trial Chamber of what we view to be the relevant parts of the

22 indictment, I mentioned paragraph 27 of count 1, which alleges that

23 between April of 1993 and until at least January of 1994, thousands of

24 Bosnian Muslim civilians were interned in detention centres under HVO

25 authority in the area of Mostar and the neighbouring municipalities.

Page 7622

1 Beatings, torture, killings were common and persistent in these detention

2 facilities. Now, it's our view, Your Honours, that the killing of

3 Krilic --

4 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry, Mr. Stringer. "Our view" is not appropriate.

5 "We submit." Because what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

6 We're personalising arguments a little bit too much there. The

7 Prosecution submit.

8 MR. STRINGER: We submit, Judge Clark, that the autopsy findings

9 and information which is already in the record in respect of the killing

10 of Mustafa Krilic, which occurred at the Dubrovkovici school detention

11 facility is relevant to the allegations contained in paragraph 27 of count

12 1, which is the persecution count, although we acknowledge that he is not

13 named -- a named victim whose name appears in the indictment.

14 JUDGE CLARK: When did the Prosecution first become aware of the

15 existence of this particular autopsy report?

16 MR. STRINGER: It was -- I became aware of it before -- certainly

17 before the trial. I don't know when this was disclosed to the Defence.

18 But it, on the other hand, was, I can say I believe, not known to us at

19 the time of the original indictment.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Par, do you want to add something to your

23 argument?

24 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Very briefly, not to belabour it very

25 much. Her Honour Judge Clark actually did most of my work here. On a

Page 7623

1 personal note, I want to say that we have on a number of occasions

2 expressed our gratitude for the things that the Prosecution have done so

3 far in this trial. And I do not want to appear that the Defence counsel

4 is unfair, that we have received certain help, and we do not reciprocate.

5 Our objection is a principled one. We cannot be expected, because we are

6 in a situation that we have been given a favour by the Prosecution, that

7 we are now going to depart from certain principles. We appreciate very

8 much everything that the Prosecution have done for us, but we have to say

9 that this goes outside of the scope of the indictment, and that is the

10 principle.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think there should be an end of this argument.

12 Since we have the witness waiting outside the room, and we have very

13 limited time this afternoon, namely about 30 minutes, shall we proceed

14 with this witness on the other two autopsy reports at this moment, pending

15 the decisions of this Trial Chamber at a later stage. Do you agree?

16 Thank you. I saw everybody is nodding.

17 Mr. Usher, will you please bring in the witness.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

20 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.

21 JUDGE LIU: Sorry for keeping you waiting for so long.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE LIU: Please make the solemn declaration in accordance with

Page 7624

1 the paper the usher is showing to you.

2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

3 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may sit down, please.

5 Yes, Mr. Stringer, you may proceed.

6 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Examined by Mr. Stringer:

8 Q. Dr. Zujo, good evening. Can you hear me well?

9 A. Very well.

10 Q. Could you tell us, please, how you are currently employed. What

11 is your profession?

12 A. I work at the Institute for Forensic Medicine in Sarajevo at the

13 University of Sarajevo. I am a specialist for forensic medicine, and I

14 also work on the teaching staff.

15 Q. And how long have you been working in the field of forensic

16 medicine?

17 A. Since 1977. That is when I started working for the Institute for

18 Forensic Medicine, and that is how long I have been involved in forensic

19 medicine.

20 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber just briefly a bit about your

21 educational background and the training which led to your becoming

22 associated with the Institute for Forensic Medicine.

23 A. After I graduated from the medical faculty, I, in fact, showed

24 affinity for forensic medicine, so I expressed my desire to specialise in

25 forensic medicine, and then I did so.

Page 7625

1 Q. Could you tell us what year you graduated from the medical

2 faculty?

3 A. In 1975.

4 Q. And do I understand correctly that at that time, then, you were a

5 medical doctor?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And where did you attend -- where did you undertake your medical

8 studies?

9 A. It was at that medical faculty at the University of Sarajevo.

10 Q. And then did you pursue a more particularized course of studies

11 that would have led to your specialisation in forensic medicine?

12 A. Yes, exactly. After I graduated from the medical faculty, I spent

13 a certain amount of time until I met the conditions to enrol in the

14 forensic medical studies. And that took four years. And then I did do a

15 specialist exam.

16 Q. And you mentioned that you now also do some teaching. How long

17 have you been teaching at the university?

18 A. Yes. And I have been doing it since 1981.

19 Q. Now, having specialised in forensic medicine, have you ever

20 obtained any certifications which have come from the court or the judicial

21 system in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. No.

23 Q. I think I asked the question poorly. Are you a court-approved or

24 a court-certified forensic specialist such that you would testify in

25 judicial proceedings in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 7626

1 A. Yes, my apologies. I had not understood. Yes, I am a sworn court

2 expert. In all cantonal and county courts, I appear as an expert witness.

3 Q. How long have you held this authorisation or this certification to

4 appear in court proceedings as an expert in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

5 A. I do it on a daily basis.

6 Q. As part of your duties as a forensic physician, and as a certified

7 court expert, do you participate in exhumations and also in autopsies to

8 determine causes of death?

9 A. Immediately after the end of the war, my institute became engaged

10 in these exhumations and autopsies of remains so that, ever since the war,

11 I have been continuously involved in exhumations and autopsies.

12 Q. And could you tell the Trial Chamber, please, the areas or the

13 regions within Bosnia-Herzegovina in which you've participated in

14 exhumations during the post-war period.

15 A. My first exhumations were in the region of Sanski Most, Kljuc, and

16 in Bosanski Petrovac. Then in the area of Travnik, that was in the

17 Central Bosnia canton, and then it was in the Mostar canton. And...

18 Q. Okay. And then following up on exhumations, did you conduct

19 autopsies, that is, examinations of bodies that were exhumed, in order to

20 attempt to determine identification and also cause of death?

21 A. My task was to supervise exhumations from the moment these sites

22 were identified, to oversee their transportation all the way to the

23 autopsy tables, and then to be involved in the autopsies themselves.

24 Q. And then after the conclusion of autopsies, did you then, were you

25 involved in the making of reports, reporting of your findings, and the

Page 7627

1 presentation of those findings to the judicial system within

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

3 A. After the exhumations and the forensic processing, our written

4 findings went to the courts that had requested these exhumations.

5 Q. Dr. Zujo, can you give the Trial Chamber a rough estimate of the

6 number of exhumations, perhaps the number of autopsies, that you've

7 conducted in your capacity as a forensic court expert in

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

9 A. In any case, over 1500.

10 Q. Were you involved in exhumations and in autopsies of persons -- or

11 I should say exhumations that occurred in the Mostar area -- I know you've

12 already said Mostar. Did these exhumations occur during the period of

13 1998?

14 A. Yes. My institute received an order from the Mostar county court

15 so that the team consisted of Dr. Dobraca and myself and our staff went

16 out and conducted these forensic processing in Mostar.

17 Q. Now, you've mentioned the name of Dr. Dobraca, and perhaps we

18 should discuss who he is briefly, because I know his name is going to

19 appear on a number of the following documents that we'll discuss. Can you

20 tell us a little bit about who Dr. Dobraca is and the extent to which you

21 worked with him in the course of these exhumations and autopsies.

22 A. Dr. Dobraca also worked at the Institute for Forensic Medicine,

23 and he is also involved in teaching. He is a specialist in forensic

24 medicine, and I can also say that we were -- we have worked -- we worked

25 together in the Neretva canton on exhumations.

Page 7628

1 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, with your permission, I would like

2 to hand the witness what has been marked as Exhibit P877.1, which is in a

3 bound blue booklet. I don't think we'll be using the ELMO, at least not

4 for a little while.

5 Q. Dr. Zujo, I would just like to ask you, if you could, take a look

6 at this document. The first part of it is in the English language. Could

7 I ask you to turn to page 9 of that document. Tell us if you recognise

8 your signature on this document and tell us basically what this document

9 and the attachments consist of.

10 A. Yes, it is my signature. And it is -- relates to the exhumations

11 which we did in Mostar.

12 Q. And I'm going to refer you to individual documents that are

13 attached to this report, Dr. Zujo, but can we say that the attachments

14 consist largely of your findings in respect of certain autopsies that were

15 performed by you and Dr. Dobraca?

16 A. Yes, these are those documents.

17 Q. Now, Dr. Zujo, let me first direct you and perhaps all of us to

18 the first three documents which are attached to it, which are tabbed as A,

19 B, and C.

20 MR. STRINGER: And again, Mr. President, Exhibit C is Dr. Zujo's

21 autopsy report in the original language. The same report in English is

22 found at Tab A, and that report in French is found at Tab B.

23 Q. And I know -- Dr. Zujo, it's up to you, I know that, or I believe

24 that you've brought the same reports yourself in your blue binder there,

25 and if you wish to refer to your own copies of those, I think the Trial

Page 7629

1 Chamber may permit you to do that.

2 A. Thank you.

3 Q. So looking at this document, Dr. Zujo, let me just ask you, is

4 this a report that's related to an examination and findings regarding a

5 body that was subsequently identified as that of Nenad Harmandic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And was this report that we're looking at here, was this then

8 submitted to an investigating Judge with the high court in Mostar?

9 A. Yes, it was.

10 Q. Now, I would like to ask you to summarise for us a number of the

11 points that are addressed in this report. First of all, if you can tell

12 us the date and the location in which the exhumation of this body took

13 place. The date and the location of the exhumation.

14 A. On the orders of the investigating Judge of the cantonal court in

15 Mostar, the team, including Dr. Dobraca and myself with assistants, on the

16 30th of March, 1998 conducted the exhumations at the Lisak park in Mostar.

17 And under number 5, after the entire procedure had been completed, the

18 body was identified as Nenad Harmandic, born 1947.

19 Q. Dr. Zujo, let me just ask you, could you state again the name of

20 the place, the location where the exhumation occurred. I'm not sure we

21 got it correctly.

22 A. It was a park called Lisak, in the Lisak park.

23 Q. My version of the report indicates that the place is called Liska

24 Park, Liska Park. I believe.

25 A. Liska, yes, right.

Page 7630

1 Q. Now, you mentioned that the body subsequently identified as that

2 of Mr. Harmandic had been identified initially as number 5. Was that

3 because there were other bodies or body parts that were also exhumed from

4 that location at the same time?

5 A. Each corpse was given a number. Since those were individual

6 graves, corpse individually buried, each corpse and each site of

7 exhumation was given a separate number.

8 Q. Okay. Now, let's go directly to what you've mentioned as corpse

9 number 5, or the one that was subsequently identified to be that of Nenad

10 Harmandic. In looking over your report, could you inform the Trial

11 Chamber, please, generally, of your findings in terms of the condition of

12 the body at the time that you examined the body, particularly any apparent

13 injuries which you found during the course of your examination.

14 A. The corpse was completely skeletonised, which means that the soft

15 tissues and internal organs had totally disappeared due to disintegration.

16 And after exhumation, the corpse was transported to the mortuary of the

17 municipal cemeteries at Sutine, where we proceeded with forensic

18 processing. In the course of that processing, we first made a description

19 of all the objects, that is, clothing on the corpse, and we found remains

20 of blue jeans, a leather trouser belt, a remnant of one moccasin, an

21 oblong lighter. That's all we found. And the corpse was wrapped in an

22 army blanket.

23 When we finished with the description of the corpse and all the

24 objects we found with it, we proceeded with the medical processing, which

25 includes an estimate of the age based on certain parameters such as seams,

Page 7631

1 pelvic bones, the collar bone, and the ribs. Then we determined the

2 length of the body, and we also measured the cranium, the length of the

3 femur, and the length of the bone in the upper arms.

4 And we arrived at an average height of this corpse of 182 to 183

5 centimetres, although according to literature, you can always add another

6 5 centimetres to the determined value. And the margin of error is 2

7 centimetres.

8 As for injuries, we found a round hole in the left cheek bone, a

9 fracture of the right shin, fracture of the pelvic bones, fracture of the

10 right ulna, fractures of the left shoulder blade and collarbone, and

11 fractures of the upper and the lower jaws, between the third and the

12 fourth teeth.

13 Q. Dr. Zujo, excuse me. If you don't mind, I'd like to stop you

14 there and ask you some questions about what you've just been saying.

15 Specifically in respect of the injuries that you've started to mention.

16 First of all, and before I do that, I should ask you, were you able to

17 make an estimate of the approximate age of the corpse at the time of

18 death?

19 A. Our finding says that the age was about 45 years.

20 Q. Now, then you began to mention a number of fractures, and I would

21 like to ask you about those first. You mentioned a fracture of the right

22 shin. That's the word that was given to me in English. The shin. Is

23 that bone also called the fibula?

24 A. Yes, that is the bone of the shin or the fibula.

25 Q. Could you just, just so we all know, the location -- I think we

Page 7632

1 all know. Could I just say is that one of the two bones of the lower leg,

2 the larger of the two bones of the lower leg?

3 A. In the lower leg, we have the tibia and the fibula. This fibula

4 is slightly behind the tibia. It is much thinner. It is a very thin

5 bone, and its function is not so important, although -- in fact, it's not

6 so important as that of the tibia, of the thicker bone.

7 Q. You also mentioned a fracture of the right ulna. And could you

8 tell us the location of the ulna in the body.

9 A. It is one of the bones of the lower arm. We have the radius bone

10 or the thumb bone, and below it, we have the ulna or the elbow bone

11 because it makes up the elbow. So we have the thumb bone and the elbow

12 bone in that area.

13 Q. As someone who has -- is an expert in forensic medicine, a

14 fracture of the ulna, as you've described, does that have any particular

15 significance to you in the course of your examination?

16 A. Such an injury, an isolated injury without the fracture of the

17 thumb bone, is usually due to the bluntness of the object used. Where we

18 have a fall and one falls on the hand, the fracture is usually just below

19 the lower wrist, and it is then a fracture of both bones.

20 Q. So the manner in which the ulna was fractured on this particular

21 specimen, what, if anything, does that tell you about the manner in which

22 the fracture was -- the manner in which the fracture occurred?

23 A. Most frequently, it occurs when the arm is protruding in front of

24 the body, when it is -- when this elbow bone is facing the offender, the

25 person inflicting the blow.

Page 7633

1 Q. Do you know why the arm would have been raised in such a fashion?

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

3 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, that calls for extreme

4 speculation. I object on those grounds.

5 JUDGE LIU: No, we are not in this field. We know nothing about

6 those terms. We are eager to hear the cause of that injury. And in this

7 courtroom, I must confess, I learn something new every day.

8 You may proceed, Doctor.


10 Q. Perhaps I could rephrase my question.

11 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry, can I just say to you, this is an expert

12 witness, and the tradition with an expert witness is he is given the

13 respect of the Court and you can lead him. Ask him, "Is this a common

14 injury in defensive injuries?"

15 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Judge Clark.

16 Q. That was my question, or the direction, Dr. Zujo. The location of

17 the arm, is it an indication of a defensive reflex, perhaps? You

18 mentioned already, I believe, an offender, the arm facing the offender.

19 Do you mean by that to suggest that there is a reflexive -- or a defence

20 reflex that would have put the arm in that position?

21 A. I said a moment ago that the arm was in front of the body, and of

22 course, I can't tell you whether it was a defensive movement or not, but

23 the arm was raised in front of the body and the elbow bone was facing the

24 attacker. That is, the person who inflicted the injury.

25 Q. Is this type of injury consistent with or typical of an injury

Page 7634

1 sustained as a defensive reflex?

2 A. Precisely.

3 Q. Dr. Zujo, I believe that you also mentioned additional fractures

4 to the pelvic bones, left shoulder blade, and collarbone, and also the

5 lower jaw. And we'll talk about the upper jaw fracture in a few moments,

6 but perhaps you could elaborate just a bit in terms of the nature of the

7 fractures of the pelvic bones, the left shoulder blade, collarbone, and

8 also the lower jaw, specifically whether the nature of those -- the

9 locations of those fractures, and what, if anything, additional you can

10 tell us about those.

11 A. In the course of the autopsy, we found a fracture of the left

12 shoulder blade, so we have a left shoulder blade and the left collarbone

13 here on the same side, that is, of the body; whereas the collarbone, the

14 shoulder blade, and the bone in the upper arm make up the shoulder area.

15 So we have fractures of two of these bones, the collarbone and the

16 shoulder blade, which means that the bluntness of the object used in the

17 attack may cause both of these fractures in just one single blow, in a

18 swing.

19 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I see we've run over. I apologise

20 for that. Perhaps if you wish, we can break until tomorrow.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll break here.

22 Doctor, I'm afraid we have to bring you back tomorrow morning.

23 And during your stay here in The Hague, please do not talk to anybody

24 about your testimony and do not let anybody talk to you about it. The

25 usher will show you out of the room.

Page 7635

1 We'll resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

3 7.04 p.m., to be reconvened on

4 Thursday, the 10th day of January, 2002,

5 at 9.30 a.m.