Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7819

1 Monday, 14 January 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I'm so glad you found your voice

9 back.

10 Well, Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the witness.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

14 JUDGE LIU: Sit down, please. Please remember that you are still

15 under the solemn declaration.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 THE WITNESS: Very well.

19 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination? Mr. Meek, please.

20 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Meek:

22 Q. Good morning, Witness ZZ. How are you this morning?

23 A. I'm fine. Thank you. How about you?

24 Q. Fine for a Monday morning. My name is Chris Meek, and I am one of

25 the attorneys for Mr. Naletilic, and I will have a few questions for you

Page 7820

1 based on what your testimony was Friday. Okay?

2 A. Okay.

3 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, I seem to be having some problems with my

4 microphone cutting in and out. I'll try another one.

5 Mr. President, could we go into private session for a moment.

6 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

7 [Private session]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [Open session]

22 MR. MEEK:

23 Q. ZZ, on the 10th day of May, 1993, you were on duty with the army

24 ABiH as a military policeman in the Vranica building; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 7821

1 Q. And after the assault began on the early morning hours of the

2 9th of May, you stayed for approximately 36 hours before you were taken in

3 to custody; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. Afterwards, you were arrested by HVO soldiers; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that is correct.

7 Q. And you ended up going to a building called the ministry building.

8 Is that a fact?

9 A. Not into the building itself, but in front of the building.

10 Q. And do you know today what the name of that ministry office is?

11 A. I did not know its name even then.

12 Q. And you do not know it today?

13 A. No, I do not. I do not know it.

14 Q. You indicated that there were many HVO soldiers present; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you give me an estimate of approximately how many HVO soldiers

18 were there, 100, 150?

19 A. You mean in front of the ministry?

20 Q. Yes, Witness.

21 A. Well, to be honest with you, I didn't even try counting them.

22 Q. So at this time, these many years later, you cannot even give us

23 an estimate. Would that be a fair statement?

24 A. Well, I could give you an estimate, but I wouldn't be able to tell

25 you exactly.

Page 7822

1 Q. What is your estimate, Witness ZZ?

2 A. Maybe between 40 and 50 men.

3 Q. You indicated in your testimony that afterwards you were taken

4 with a group of other Bosniaks to the MUP station in Siroki Brijeg. Was

5 that on the same day?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you indicated, I think, in your direct testimony that there

8 were perhaps 50 to 60 of you taken to Siroki Brijeg MUP station. Am I

9 correct?

10 A. Something like that.

11 Q. Would that be an estimate, again, an estimate such as you just

12 gave me on the amount of soldiers, the number of soldiers who were present

13 at the ministry building?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And could it have been as few as 40 in that group rather than 60?

16 A. No.

17 Q. So if we have had other witnesses who were in that same group

18 testify in this Tribunal that there were approximately 40 people total,

19 and 17 to 20 per cell, they would be mistaken and you would be correct?

20 A. To me, it seemed that there were more. I think that that was

21 wrong. But it is possible, because even then, I did not think of counting

22 them.

23 Q. You indicated in your direct testimony that when you were in the

24 court yard or yard of the ministry building that you saw a man who you

25 called "Tuta." Is that a fact?

Page 7823

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you also said that you believe that this man that you saw

3 named Tuta had some guards with him; is that correct?

4 A. You mean in front of the ministry?

5 Q. Yes, Witness ZZ.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I want to make sure, because I am looking through my notes from

8 your testimony, the reason you believe this man you saw had the name of

9 Tuta was because you thought that because you had heard that these people

10 were Tuta's guards; is that correct?

11 A. That is correct, and I had seen Mr. Tuta before.

12 THE INTERPRETER: May the witness be asked to speak closer to the

13 microphone, please.

14 MR. MEEK:

15 Q. Did you hear that, Witness ZZ? The interpreter asked that you

16 speak closer to the microphone when you answer the questions.

17 A. Fine. I apologise.

18 Q. Witness ZZ, have you had an opportunity to review your four-page

19 statement that you gave to the OTP back in 1998 prior to your testimony

20 today and Friday?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you recall in that statement that you gave that you told OTP in

23 1998 that "I first saw Tuta in front of the ministry building."

24 A. Yes, I remember that sentence.

25 Q. And did you mean by that sentence that this is the first time in

Page 7824












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Page 7825

1 your life that you had seen Tuta?

2 A. No. I first saw Mr. Tuta, and I was sure that it was Mr. Tuta.

3 It was the first time that I knew that it was Mr. Tuta.

4 Q. And the reason you knew it was Mr. Tuta is people told you that.

5 Isn't that a fact?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In your prior answer, ZZ, you stated that "No, I first saw

8 Mr. Tuta, and I was sure that it was Mr. Tuta." Was that that day, on the

9 10th of May, that you were sure it was Mr. Tuta?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And can you tell me, please, when it was prior to the 10th day of

12 May, 1993, that you had ever seen Mr. Tuta?

13 A. I had seen him in some coffee shop, but I was not sure at the time

14 that it was he.

15 Q. And can you tell me, Witness ZZ, was this sighting an isolated

16 incident?

17 A. You mean before? Yes, it had been the first time -- it was the

18 first time that I had seen that gentleman.

19 Q. And was it the only time that you had seen that gentleman prior to

20 the 10th of May, 1993?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And can you give me an idea of how close in time it was to the 9th

23 of May, 1993? Had it been six months, had it been one year, had it been

24 two years? Do you have an idea today as to the approximate date that you

25 had -- the first and only time you had seen Mr. Tuta before the 10th of

Page 7826

1 May of 1993?

2 A. No, I have no idea.

3 Q. Do you have any idea as to the location or name of the cafe bar?

4 A. I cannot recall now.

5 Q. But it was only after the 10th day of May that people told you

6 that this man was named Tuta; correct?

7 A. Yes, that is also correct.

8 Q. And everything that you testified about on Friday concerning Tuta,

9 that knowledge was gained from conversations you had with other people.

10 Is that not correct?

11 A. Yes, that is correct. Because I knew that gentleman only by his

12 face.

13 Q. And besides the single incident of a sighting of this gentleman in

14 a cafe bar, you had never seen him, his picture, in magazines, newspapers,

15 or on TV. Would that be a fair statement?

16 A. At that time, I was not reading papers or watch television.

17 Q. You've testified last week, ZZ, that while you were in

18 Siroki Brijeg at the MUP station, you had an occasion to observe or have

19 another sighting of this individual, Mr. Tuta; is that correct?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. And that occurred, did it not, on an occasion that you were

22 working at the municipal swimming pool in Siroki Brijeg?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you have any recollection today, because I did not notice in

25 your statement from 1998, how was Mr. Tuta dressed that day, if you

Page 7827

1 recall?

2 A. Camouflage uniform.

3 Q. And this is at Siroki Brijeg, at the swimming pool location I'm

4 talking about.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, do you believe, Witness ZZ, that your memory was fresher on

7 25 November, 1998, when you spoke with the Office of the Prosecutor and

8 gave your statement than it is today, in the year 2002?

9 A. I think that my memory is the same.

10 Q. The reason I asked that is because on page 3 of the written

11 statement you gave in 1998 to the Office of the Prosecutor, you indicated

12 very specifically -- and I will show you the statement if you do not

13 recall -- that on the occasion that you saw Mr. Tuta in Siroki Brijeg at

14 the municipal pool, that he had arrived and stayed "only for a few

15 minutes." Do you recall giving that statement in 1998?

16 A. It is possible.

17 Q. Because I notice, Witness ZZ, that in your testimony on Friday in

18 response to questions by Mr. Stringer, you indicated that Mr. Tuta, when

19 he arrived at this municipal swimming pool in Siroki Brijeg, he stayed for

20 15 to 30 minutes, not just a few minutes. So my question to you is which

21 is more correct? Was he there only a few minutes. Or was he there for 15

22 minutes to one half hour?

23 A. I'm sorry, but I wasn't watching -- I wasn't looking at my watch

24 at the time. But it seemed to me as if it was between 15 and 30 minutes.

25 Q. And maybe it's just a matter of semantics, but in your mind, is

Page 7828

1 a "few minutes" the same as a half an hour?

2 A. It depends on the occasion.

3 Q. And tell me what factors it would depend on, Witness ZZ?

4 A. If it was a private meeting -- it depends on whether it was a

5 pleasant or unpleasant event.

6 Q. Understanding that every moment you were in custody during the

7 time period that you discussed Friday was unpleasant, most unpleasant, on

8 the occasion that you saw Mr. Tuta at the swimming pool, he didn't do

9 anything bad to you, did he?

10 A. No, he did not.

11 Q. You didn't see him issue or hear him issue any orders to anybody,

12 did you?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You indicated --

15 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, I think we need to go into closed

16 session for a moment, or private session.

17 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 7829













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Page 7830












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Page 7831













13 Page 7831 redacted private session













Page 7832

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]

11 MR. MEEK: We're back? Okay.

12 Q. After your -- after you had been transferred to Ljubuski, you

13 stayed there for 10 to 15 days, and then were transferred to the

14 Heliodrom; that correct?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. It's also correct on the 16th of August, you were wounded in

17 Mostar?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. And on the day you were wounded, were you attempting to help save

20 an HVO soldier that was in the same bunker that you were in?

21 A. No.

22 Q. There was an HVO soldier in the bunker in the same location where

23 you were wounded, though, was there not?

24 A. No, he wasn't in the bunker. He was on the wall -- or rather, he

25 was behind the sandbags.

Page 7833

1 Q. And were you behind the sandbags with him, with this HVO soldier?

2 A. Yes, but not at the moment when I was wounded.

3 Q. At the moment you were wounded, the HVO soldier had already been

4 killed; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You were attempting to shore up your location and put up some wood

7 with your hand when the bullet went through it? Is that what happened?

8 Is that how you were wounded?

9 A. Yes, but not to shore up my position. I was making a bunker for

10 HVO soldiers.

11 Q. You indicated in your statement that you were attempting to

12 construct a roof of the bunker to keep yourself from being hit. Is that

13 true?

14 A. No, that is not true at all.

15 MR. MEEK: I had like to have the usher hand Witness ZZ a copy of

16 his statement to the OTP in his own language.

17 Q. And Witness ZZ, it's on page 4. I've already had the page turned

18 to, and there's a little red mark on the left side of the page. I'd like

19 you to review that portion of your statement. Now, Witness ZZ, have you

20 had a chance to review that paragraph of your statement?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I want to explain to you that I have an English translation of

23 your statement in your own language, and there may be some differences.

24 But could you go to that second-to-the-last sentence of that paragraph

25 that parts out "I tried to construct the roof of the bunker..." Do you

Page 7834

1 see that?

2 A. I do, yes.

3 Q. Would you go ahead and read, then, from your statement in 1998?

4 A. Very well. "I tried to build the roof of the bunker so as to

5 protect it from the fire, but when I raised my hands to do that, ABiH

6 members hit me in my right hand."

7 Q. Thank you very much. Now my question was, again, were you trying

8 to construct the roof of the bunker to keep from being shot yourself or to

9 keep the HVO soldier who had been shot from being shot a second time?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Were you, then, constructing the roof of the bunker to keep from

12 being shot yourself? That's my question.

13 A. No. I wasn't making it for myself. I was building it for HVO men

14 fighting on that front line so that they wouldn't be hit by the ABiH.

15 Q. So in your statement when you say you constructed -- tried to

16 construct the roof of the bunker to keep from being hit, you're not

17 indicating yourself; you were doing it for HVO soldiers. Is that your

18 testimony?

19 A. That's right. That is my testimony.

20 Q. You were taken to a hospital in Mostar after you were wounded in

21 the right hand; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And can you give us the name of that hospital, Witness ZZ?

24 A. It was the surgical hospital in Mostar.

25 Q. That was a Croatian hospital, was it not?

Page 7835

1 A. At that time, yes.

2 Q. And you were initially there for over 30 days, from approximately

3 the 16th of August to approximately the 23rd of September. Is that a

4 fact?

5 A. Roughly, yes.

6 Q. After that initial stay at the hospital, you were returned to the

7 Heliodrom for approximately 10 to 15 days before you were taken back to

8 the Croat hospital in West Mostar; correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You were able to stay in the Croatian hospital at West Mostar

11 until March of 1994, a few days prior to your being exchanged and

12 released; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, it is correct.

14 Q. Did you -- how were you able to stay in the hospital? Did you

15 have a physician -- a Croatian physician that helped you stay there?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you have to have something signed by some doctors in that

18 hospital to stay there rather than the Heliodrom?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You don't have any complaints in your statement, nor in your prior

21 testimony, of any mistreatment while you were hospitalised in the Croatian

22 hospital for that substantial period of time, do you?

23 A. I don't.

24 Q. And were you being hidden out by -- in any fashion at all while

25 you were at the Croatian hospital?

Page 7836












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Page 7837

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you tell me, please, who it was that was helping you hide

3 out at the Croatian hospital so you would not have to return to the

4 Heliodrom?

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

6 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I guess my only concern is whether,

7 first of all, whether this is relevant, especially in view of the fact

8 that it's possible -- I don't know -- it's possible that the answer might

9 possibly put another person in jeopardy or disclose the fact that they

10 were assisting a prisoner. And it's on that basis that we would object.

11 If the Court finds it to be relevant, we would ask to go into private

12 session to take the answer.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, you have to show us the relevance to

14 your case.

15 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, this matter was spoken about, and there

16 was testimony given Friday, direct testimony in direct examination, about

17 his stay at the hospital in Mostar. And anything, it's my belief, I

18 submit to Your Honour, Mr. President, that anything that this witness

19 testifies in direct examination, I have a right to cross-examine him on

20 those issues.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, my question is that, is it necessary to know the

22 very name of that person?

23 MR. MEEK: You're probably right; I probably don't need to know

24 the name of the person. I'll withdraw the name of the person.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may proceed.

Page 7838


2 Q. Without asking you the name of the person, was it more than person

3 who helped you hide out there in the hospital in West Mostar?

4 A. Well, I'd rather not answer this question.

5 Q. Witness ZZ, with all due respect, I'm not asking for any names. I

6 just want to know if it was one person or a greater number than one who

7 helped you in this fashion. Just the numbers, not the names.

8 A. Several.

9 Q. Witness ZZ, on Friday you testified, I believe, that during the

10 time period you were in Ljubuski that there were some prisoners there from

11 Ahmici. Did you testify to that, sir?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. And my next question would be, was this again something that other

14 prisoners or other people had told you, or did you speak personally to

15 these people who claimed to be from Ahmici?

16 A. I heard that.

17 Q. You testified on Friday in direct examination that while you were

18 being held at the Heliodrom, you saw Mr. Tuta one time; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, it is correct.

20 Q. And I believe if I understood your testimony, that you had this

21 sighting of Mr. Tuta at the Heliodrom in the first weeks, week or weeks,

22 that you went to the Heliodrom; is that correct?

23 A. It is, yes. It is correct.

24 Q. While you were at the Heliodrom, you were apparently able to look

25 out a window to see people come and go. And that's how you glimpsed my

Page 7839

1 client, Mr. Tuta; correct?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. Would it be a fair statement, Witness ZZ, that while you stayed at

4 the Heliodrom you saw many people come and go from your vantage point

5 where you could look out the window?

6 A. Yes, it's possible.

7 Q. So therefore, you would agree with me that it was not any sort of

8 strange incident or out of the ordinary to see people come and go from the

9 Heliodrom?

10 A. Well, it wasn't strange to see prisoners.

11 Q. Or civilians?

12 A. I don't remember seeing any other civilians but those who were

13 detained.

14 Q. On the time -- on the date that you saw Mr. Tuta at the Heliodrom,

15 would it be a fair statement that you saw him momentarily as he arrived,

16 and then you saw him again as he exited and drove off?

17 A. No. I only saw him arrive and walk towards the entrance into the

18 building.

19 Q. And you indicated, I believe, in your direct testimony, that he

20 was with his guards on that date?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Would these be the same guards that you had indicated you saw him

23 on the 10th day of May with in Mostar?

24 A. Possibly.

25 Q. Can you give me an idea as to the distance you were from your

Page 7840

1 vantage point at the window of your building to the location where you say

2 Mr. Tuta was when you observed him at the Heliodrom that one day?

3 A. About four or five metres.

4 Q. While you were in the hospital in West Mostar, you saw a Croatian

5 by the name of Misic, did you not?

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

7 MR. STRINGER: I object, Mr. President. It's beyond the scope of

8 the direct examination.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, where are you leading us to?

10 MR. MEEK: I'm leading us, Your Honour, to his stay at the

11 hospital which he testified to in direct examination.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may continue, and let us know where is it

13 you are leading us to.

14 MR. MEEK:

15 Q. This Misic was an HVO military man, or political, if you know?

16 A. He commanded an HVO unit in Mostar.

17 Q. He even stopped in your room and wished you a speedy recovery, did

18 he not?

19 A. He didn't come into my room. I saw him on the stairs in the

20 hospital building.

21 Q. And on that occasion, he wished you well, did he not?

22 A. He did, because he thought I was a Croat.

23 Q. Did he tell you that he thought you were a Croat or are you just

24 assuming that?

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

Page 7841

1 MR. STRINGER: Objection, Mr. President. I renew my objection as

2 to the scope of direct, and I also would suggest this is irrelevant.

3 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek, we believe that this question is irrelevant.

4 You may skip this question.

5 MR. MEEK: I will skip this question, Mr. President.

6 Q. Witness ZZ, you'll be very happy to know that I'm just about

7 finished, so you won't have much longer. But I'd like to know if you can

8 tell me, what month was it, if you recall, that you testified you saw

9 Tuta, Mr. Tuta, at the Heliodrom?

10 A. No, I can't remember. I don't remember. At that time, time meant

11 nothing to me.

12 Q. Let me ask you it this way, then: You were at the Heliodrom only

13 on three occasions; correct?

14 A. It is.

15 Q. And the very last occasion would only have been a few days prior

16 to your exchange and release; correct?

17 A. It is.

18 Q. That would have been the shortest period of time, the shortest

19 stay at the Heliodrom; correct?

20 A. It is, yes.

21 Q. Now, does that help refresh your recollection at all about whether

22 or not you observed or glimpsed Mr. Tuta that last few days at the

23 Heliodrom?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And you can't recall whether it was the first time or the time in

Page 7842












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Page 7843

1 between Ljubuski and the hospital?

2 A. No. It was the first time, that is, after we had moved from

3 Ljubuski to Heliodrom. It was during that period of time that I saw

4 Mr. Tuta.

5 Q. And calculating the time, we're looking at June, then, of 1993?

6 Is that your best guess?

7 A. Possibly.

8 Q. Witness ZZ, I thank you for your patience. I thank you for coming

9 to The Hague to testify, and I wish you the best of luck in your life.

10 Thank you very much.

11 A. Thank you.

12 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination, Mr. Seric?

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Seric:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Just a few questions in relation to the document

16 that the Prosecutor showed you on Friday, so if we can have D744, please,

17 Mr. Usher. 774.

18 Mr. ZZ, the Prosecutor had shown you this document back on Friday,

19 and he asked you to go to Item 94, so will you please go to page 8 and

20 tell us what the whole Item 94 is -- says. It is -- it would be your

21 page 8, at the top.

22 A. Yes, I found it.

23 Q. Will you read the whole Item 94.

24 A. Excuse me, are we in the private session?

25 Q. You're right, and I apologise to you. The witness's name is

Page 7844

1 mentioned here, and I apologise to you, Witness, for my omission.

2 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

3 [Private session]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [Open session]

20 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. ZZ, under 94, which you saw just a moment before, is that

22 consistent with what actually happened to you?

23 A. Yes, it is except the date is not correct.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no

25 further questions.

Page 7845

1 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination? Yes, Mr. Stringer.

2 MR. STRINGER: Very briefly, Mr. President.

3 Re-examined by Mr. Stringer:

4 Q. Witness ZZ, you were asked -- my colleague Mr. Meek asked you

5 questions about your testimony in which you testified that you saw

6 Mr. Naletilic, Tuta, at the Ministry building on the 10th of May. And I

7 want to ask you just a few questions about that.

8 A. Very well.

9 Q. First of all, can you tell us, please, how long you and the other

10 prisoners were held at this location that you've identified as the

11 ministry in Mostar before you were taken on the buses to Siroki Brijeg?

12 A. I don't know exactly how much time has passed.

13 Q. Was it a matter of minutes or a matter of hours, if you recall?

14 A. It seemed as if it was more than -- it was a bit more than one

15 hour, but I really don't know.

16 Q. During this period of time, do you recall approximately how many

17 opportunities you had to see the person you've identified as Naletilic,

18 Tuta?

19 A. Excuse me, I did not get your question.

20 Q. How many opportunities did you have to see him? How many times

21 did you see him, if you recall? Was it just one time you saw him? Did

22 you see him on more than one occasion during this period at the ministry?

23 A. I saw him. I was looking at him all the time. He was present

24 there throughout.

25 Q. Did you hear him speak?

Page 7846

1 A. Yes, I heard him speak.

2 Q. Do you recall who he was speaking to?

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

4 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, I would object as being beyond the scope

5 of the cross-examination. And I'm going to make my argument now, I must.

6 Because in direct examination, Mr. Scott [sic] -- I apologise,

7 Mr. Stringer. I'm apologising to both Mr. Scott and Mr. Stringer. Asked

8 only certain questions limiting his direct examination, thereby I limited

9 my cross-examination. And in my cross-examination, I never asked this

10 witness anything about any conversations that he may have heard my client

11 speak because in direct examination it did not come up. And I'm in a box

12 now, Your Honour. I believe it's beyond the scope of the

13 cross-examination, and I object on that ground unless I'm allowed later to

14 re-cross.

15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer, this question should be asked in your

16 direct examination rather than in your re-examination.

17 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, if I could briefly respond, the

18 Trial Chamber has heard a great deal of testimony about these incidents,

19 and perhaps I moved more rapidly through this incident in the testimony of

20 this witness than I should have. I could certainly have dwelled on it in

21 greater detail than I did. However, during the cross-examination, the

22 identification was challenged, in my view, in the questions put to the

23 witness by Mr. Meek. And I'm simply now attempting to come back to that

24 in order to clarify or to supply additional testimony or information on

25 the identification.

Page 7847

1 JUDGE LIU: But we believe that in the direct examination the

2 conversation between Mr. Tuta and another person was not brought up. So

3 you may skip this question, Mr. Stringer.

4 MR. STRINGER: Very well, Mr. President.

5 Q. One final question, Witness: The time that you testified you saw

6 Mr. Naletilic, Tuta, at the Heliodrom, are you able to tell us whether

7 that sighting occurred before or after your injury on 16 August, 1993?

8 A. Before my wounding.

9 Q. So that you saw him at some point during the period after your

10 arrival in the Heliodrom in mid-June, and then prior to -- yes, I should

11 say sometime after your arrival in mid-June and before the time of your

12 injury on the 16th of August. Is that the most precise that you can be in

13 terms of the time frame?

14 A. I'm afraid that that is the most precise.

15 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, no further questions.

16 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from Judges? Judge Clark, please.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE CLARK: Witness ZZ, you've given evidence which we have

19 heard from a number of other witnesses in relation to the attack on the

20 Vranica building. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber why it was

21 necessary, or why you in particular felt it was necessary when you were

22 surrendering, to take off your uniform as a military policeman for the

23 ABiH?

24 A. I believe that if I did not take off the uniform of ABiH, I would

25 be killed right away or I would just die.

Page 7848












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7849

1 JUDGE CLARK: Was that a view that was shared, and you can only

2 speak for yourself, but did you feel that that was a view that was shared

3 by your colleagues?

4 A. Yes. I had a feeling that that was a view shared by my

5 colleagues.

6 JUDGE CLARK: Now, if you can move forward to the video, which I

7 believe was shown on television on the day of the event, did you ever see

8 that video or hear the clip of the narrative that goes with it before

9 Friday?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 JUDGE CLARK: We have a transcript that we have been furnished

12 with of what was actually said at the time that that clip was shown on

13 television. Now, I know you're a witness, and it's not always easy to

14 catch everything that doesn't involve you. But would you agree with the

15 content of the narrative, that extremists had captured this building and

16 were holding Croats as prisoners or hostages?

17 A. No, that was not correct at all.

18 JUDGE CLARK: On the clip, ZZ, there was -- there were a series of

19 shots I think taken at different times, but at one stage you come to a

20 picture of a very thin man in a green uniform. He's on his own, and he

21 has long hair; they look like dreadlocks. And then the clip goes on to a

22 group of HVO officers and soldiers. Do you know who that man with the

23 dreadlocks is or which army he belonged to?

24 A. He was with the ABiH.

25 JUDGE CLARK: Did you know who he was?

Page 7850

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE CLARK: Who was he?

3 A. We called him Zuba, Z-U-B-A

4 Q.

5 JUDGE CLARK: He kept his uniform on. Do you know what happened

6 to him?

7 A. No.

8 JUDGE CLARK: If I can now go to the municipal swimming pool and

9 the works which were carried out there. You described how one day

10 Mr. Tuta came to the pool, and you described that a man who was Jablanica

11 had been the officer in charge at the pool. You also described a young

12 man, who when he saw Mr. Tuta, going white with fear, and then going to

13 talk to Mr. Jablanica. Could you elaborate on that evidence, please?

14 A. I don't know what you're interested in.

15 JUDGE CLARK: Do you know anything about the young man who went

16 white with fear and when he went to Mr. Jablanica, was he seeking his

17 protection or what was the point of that evidence?

18 A. I don't know. I did not follow that conversation. I did not hear

19 what was said.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you for assisting me.

21 A. You're welcome.

22 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge's questions? Yes,

23 Mr. Stringer.

24 MR. STRINGER: I should clarify one thing, perhaps,

25 Mr. President.

Page 7851

1 Q. Witness, you testified or indicated that the videotaped footage of

2 the Vranica is footage that you saw before last Friday when you

3 testified. And I wanted to ask you, did you have an opportunity to see

4 the footage more recently here in The Hague before you testified, or did

5 you actually see the footage on television at some time in 1993 or 1994

6 back in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

7 A. That was sometime in 1994 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in Mostar.

8 MR. STRINGER: Thank you.

9 A. You're welcome.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for coming here. And Mr. Meek,

11 still has a question to ask.

12 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, I do, out of the Judge's questions. And

13 Mr. Stringer almost cleared it up.

14 Further cross-examined by Mr. Meek:

15 Q. Witness ZZ, you testified just now that you saw this footage and

16 the audio in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Can you tell me about what year that

17 would have been?

18 A. In 1994.

19 Q. The next question is, were you ever shown that footage again by

20 anyone from the Office of the Prosecutor's office before you testified on

21 Friday, last Friday?

22 A. Yes. But without the audio.

23 Q. And when was that?

24 A. When I first came to -- for proofing.

25 Q. When you first came for proofing?

Page 7852

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What do you mean by "proofing"?

3 A. When I came here to see what was done here and what they can

4 expect.

5 Q. Was it last week prior to your testimony?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Was it subsequent to 1998 when you gave your statement to the OTP?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know a date, a month and a year, approximately? My last

10 question.

11 A. That was sometime in October 2001.

12 Q. Thank you very much, ZZ. And again, I wish you the best of luck

13 in life.

14 A. Thank you.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much, Witness, for coming to help us.

16 When the usher pulls down the blinds, you may go. And we all wish you a

17 good luck in your future life.

18 A. Thank you very much.

19 [Witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

21 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, the Prosecution tenders

22 Exhibit P17.1, which is the revised Vranica videotape with audio; P17.2,

23 the transcript of that videotape; Exhibit P30, which was the videotaped

24 footage of the inside, the interior, of the MUP building in Siroki Brijeg.

25 Mr. President, the witness looked at Exhibits 26.6 through 26.10, all of

Page 7853

1 which were photographs which I believe are already in evidence. If not,

2 we tender those. The witness made markings on Exhibits P20.2 and 20.11,

3 and so we would offer those two photographs as marked. So those would

4 need new exhibit numbers.

5 Also, the documents, Exhibits P565.1 and P566.1. Those are two

6 new documents which we tender at this time. The witness also looked at

7 Exhibit 774, which I believe the Prosecution has also already tendered.

8 But if I am mistaken, we tender that as well.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, I believe the videotape has

10 already been admitted into evidence.

11 MR. STRINGER: Exhibit 30, Mr. President?

12 JUDGE LIU: Exhibit 17.1 and 17.2, as well as 30, 26.6 to 10, they

13 have all been admitted into the evidence already.

14 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I believe that Exhibit 17 had

15 previously been tendered and admitted, and then my recollection is that

16 the Trial Chamber indicated it wished to have the audiotape, so then the

17 full version unredacted or unedited was made by us. And if I'm mistaken,

18 Mr. President, if it's already in, then it's in. If it's not in, we just

19 wanted to make sure we tendered 17.1.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Any objections? Mr. Seric?

21 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] The Defence of Vinko Martinovic has

22 no objections, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Meek?

24 MR. MEEK: The Defence of Mladen Naletilic has no objections, Your

25 Honours.

Page 7854












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7855

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Those documents are admitted

2 into the evidence. It is so decided.

3 Well, who will deal with the next witness?

4 MR. SCOTT: Good morning, Mr. President. Mr. Bos will be handling

5 the next witness. I don't know what your preferences are in terms of

6 whether you want to start now or take a slightly early break.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Bos, would you please inform us about the

8 relevance of the indictment as well as what kind of protective measures

9 the next witness is seeking so that we could make the proper arrangement,

10 if there's any, during the break.

11 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour, yes, I can do that.

12 The next witness will be testifying -- has requested to have his

13 face distorted and a pseudonym. And I think his pseudonym will be

14 Witness AB, if I understand the Registry. And the relevance to the

15 indictments are to the following paragraphs: The background paragraphs 10

16 and 11; the superior authority paragraphs 14, 16, and 17; general

17 allegations, paragraph 20 and 21; count 1, paragraphs 26, 28, 31, 34(a),

18 (b), and (d); counts 2 to 8, paragraphs 35 through 38, and paragraph 44;

19 count 18, paragraph 54; and count 21, paragraph 57.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I guess there's no objections

21 concerning the protective measures. Mr. Meek?

22 MR. MEEK: None, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

24 Well, we will break here, and we will resume at 11.30.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.56 a.m.

Page 7856

1 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos.

3 MR. BOS: Your Honours, I'm ready to proceed with the witness, if

4 he can be brought in.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the

6 witness.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.

10 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

11 accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you.

12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

13 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please.

17 Yes, Mr. Bos, you may proceed.

18 MR. BOS: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Examined by Mr. Bos:

20 Q. Good morning, Witness. Are you comfortable?

21 A. Yes. Thank you.

22 Q. The Trial Chamber has granted your request for protective

23 measures, which means that during your testimony, your face will be -- the

24 public image of your face will be distorted, and you will be referred to

25 as a pseudonym. Now, the usher is going to show you a sheet of paper

Page 7857

1 which has your name on it and the name of the pseudonym. I'd like you to

2 look at that paper and confirm whether this is, indeed, your name.

3 A. It is.

4 Q. As you can see on the paper, you are being referred to as

5 "Witness AB." Do you understand that?

6 A. That's fine, yes.

7 MR. BOS: May I proceed?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

9 MR. BOS:

10 Q. Witness AB, what is your ethnicity?

11 A. Muslim.

12 Q. In May 1993, did you live with your wife and your two daughters

13 and your son in West Mostar?

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 It's on... Well --

23 Witness, could you please tell the Court what happened on the 9th

24 of May, 1993? Where were you and what happened on that day?

25 A. On the 9th of May, 1993, I and my family were in our flat . That

Page 7858

1 evening in the northern camp, that is, on the left bank, intensive gunfire

2 started. War, or -- as a matter of fact, I don't really know what it

3 was. But I'm about 100 metres from the northern camp as the crow flies,

4 so that I came out onto the balcony because I didn't know what was going

5 on. I just assumed that there was a war being waged, that there was

6 fighting on that side, on the left bank. Several times I went out onto

7 the balcony, but it was night-time so that one couldn't see much. And I

8 waited for the morning, and in the morning, we heard that there had been

9 fighting in the camp, around the camp, and things of that sort.

10 Q. Who was fighting whom?

11 A. Who was fighting whom? Well, I suppose the BH army and the HVO,

12 as likely as not. I don't know.

13 Q. When you refer to the camp, you refer to the northern barracks?

14 A. The barracks in the northern camp, yes.

15 Q. Now, in the days following the 9th of May, did anything happen to

16 you and your family? Did anyone came to your house?

17 A. Well, following the 9th of May, the hell started, my personal hell

18 and my family's hell set in. At that time, we went through terrible

19 things. The flats were broken, people were beaten. There was looting. I

20 personally went through it all, together with my family.

21 Q. Now, Witness, you said that -- sorry. You said that flats were

22 broken and people were beaten. Are you talking about what you saw in the

23 neighbourhood or what you experienced yourself or both?

24 A. Both. I experienced horrible things during that time they entered

25 flats, plundered, carried away. But I, in particular, experienced -- now,

Page 7859

1 what was the date? It must have been two or three days later. They

2 entered my apartment -- it wasn't broken into because I dared not lock the

3 door. And that man entered, I knew him because I believe he lived nearby.

4 Q. Who was he?

5 A. His name was Muca -- I don't know.

6 Q. And was this man wearing a uniform?

7 A. Yes, he had an army uniform, and he was never without a weapon.

8 He entered my flat with another two men, that is, as a matter of fact,

9 they were outside, and then they also entered. He ordered us to go to the

10 living room and not to move from there. He threatened us with weapons,

11 and then he entered the children's room and our bedroom looking for

12 something; I have no idea what. And then he took -- well, there was

13 nothing to take, really. But he saw a CD player, and that is what he took

14 away and left. They did not beat us.

15 The next day, the same thing happened again, except that I heard

16 some noise. They went upstairs -- by upstairs, I could hear somebody

17 crying on the third floor. Later on, that is, I found that it was the

18 third floor.

19 Q. What did they take the next day when that same person came again?

20 What did he take from you on that second day?

21 A. Let me tell you this first. This group which came the next day,

22 they beat good and proper a neighbour of mine, and then they came

23 downstairs to my place because we were the only two Muslim families in

24 that particular building. All the others had already been expelled, and I

25 don't really know what happened to them. But in my building were three

Page 7860












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7861

1 Serb families, but they had left long before that.

2 Q. Let me just --

3 A. So they came to me --

4 Q. When you talk about soldiers, and you've mentioned that they were

5 wearing uniforms, were these HVO soldiers?

6 A. I guess so. To tell the truth, I never heard -- I was -- I never

7 had much contact with the army. I didn't take part in anything, but they

8 all wore uniforms and carried weapons and had some insignia.

9 Q. Please continue what happened to you on that next day.

10 A. But this was a different group. It wasn't Muca's group. It was

11 some other people. And they came to my place. They banged on the door.

12 By that time, we had all removed our name plates from the doors. And I

13 had done the same thing. And I suppose they were going from one door to

14 the other, so they came to my place then. And at that moment, the man who

15 I suppose was their commander or something -- I don't know -- he

16 recognised me because we knew one another. We used to work together for

17 the same company. I think his name was Sunjic or something else. I can't

18 remember. As a matter of fact, his father worked with me, and his father

19 was killed in an accident that happened in our company. And he came

20 afterwards. He was quite younger. And when he recognised me, he turned

21 back, and he told others, "Don't go in there." And then I went upstairs

22 to see what had happened to my neighbour, and he was all covered in blood.

23 Children were crying.

24 So I helped -- I did what little I could do, and then I went

25 downstairs to my flat again. So that was that. We didn't sleep during

Page 7862

1 those days. We were constantly apprehensive, constantly on the alert

2 expecting somebody to turn up.

3 Q. What happened toward the end of June?

4 A. Toward the end of June, at that time those were very hard times.

5 And we then decided -- we were quite at a loss what to do because I had

6 three children; one daughter who was 16, 17 at the time, a younger

7 daughter, and a son. And we then decided to leave, but we didn't know

8 where. We simply had nowhere to go. My brother lived at the top of

9 Avenija. So it occurred to me to go to his place. I don't really know

10 why. Because at that time many people had been taken to camps, and I

11 could see that my neighbours were missing, I mean those who had stayed

12 behind. And then -- and so we went to my brother, to Avenija to seek

13 shelter there. We were really completely at sea. I didn't know what to

14 do.

15 Q. You went to your brother's place. What happened at your brother's

16 place on the 1st of July?

17 A. On the 1st of July, I came there with my children, and there I

18 found my sister-in-law with her daughter. I didn't know where my brother

19 was. He had a small summer cottage on the way to Capljina, and he had

20 gone there. And later on I found out that he had ended up in a camp, too.

21 But at that time I didn't know that. At that time, we were still waiting

22 for something. And that evening, on the 1st of July, soldiers, or rather

23 my sister-in-law saw the soldiers come through the main entrance, and then

24 we were thinking what to do with me? But I simply didn't know what to do.

25 And so I decided to hide under a couch. So I got under that couch

Page 7863

1 somehow, and my wife lay on that couch. They came in, they searched,

2 asked if there were any adult men. No, there aren't. So they looked

3 around the flat, balcony, the bedroom, and left. They did not find me

4 then.

5 Q. What did you do the next day and the day after?

6 A. The next day, I was too afraid to stay there. But I didn't know

7 where to go, and so my sister-in-law, my brother's wife, told me to go

8 down to the cellar where coal is kept normally. And downstairs, we

9 somehow arranged things and I spent the night there. I didn't sleep, but

10 I spent the night there.

11 Q. Can I ask why you were too scared to stay in the house?

12 A. Well, I was simply afraid. Now, I didn't fear for myself. I

13 think that at that time I was beyond fear by then. But I was afraid for

14 my children, and I didn't know what might happen. My sister-in-law is --

15 her daughter, who was 17, and then my daughter of the same age and my

16 younger daughter, and it was they I feared most for. So I decided to

17 spend the night down there. And on the third day, they came again. And

18 they were by the front door with a lorry, and I decided not to hide any

19 more. That is, to simply sit there and wait.

20 Q. Were you then put on the lorry and where were you taken to?

21 A. And then they went upstairs, and I came along, picked up a package

22 of cigarettes, and went with them.

23 Q. If you say "them," who were them?

24 A. Well, soldiers again wearing -- I don't know who they were. I did

25 not know them personally. And then we got on to that lorry. They were

Page 7864

1 already in it 15, maybe 20 people in it. Some of them I know. I knew,

2 well, two or three of them, and I felt slightly relieved then. I mean, we

3 were all going somewhere, so...

4 Q. The people who were all in the lorry, were these people of Muslim

5 ethnicity?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where did they take you?

8 A. We went directly to the Heliodrom.

9 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown Exhibit 20.9, please.

10 A. Yes, I was brought to this building here.

11 MR. BOS: Could the ELMO be raised, please. I'm not getting any

12 picture.

13 JUDGE LIU: We saw nothing.

14 MR. BOS: We're not getting any image on our monitor.

15 Just one moment, Witness. There's a technical problem. If you

16 switch on the video channel, you'll get the image.

17 Q. Now, Witness, with the marker could you indicate which building

18 you were taken? And maybe we could get the whole photograph on there. I

19 don't think we have the whole photograph on there.

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. All right. Could you please circle that building with the marker

22 which is in front of you.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Do you recall what the name of that building was, how it was

25 referred to?

Page 7865

1 A. It was called "prison." It's an old stone building.

2 Q. For how long were you kept at the Heliodrom, Witness AB?

3 A. Well, I left the Heliodrom on the 19th of December.

4 Q. So is it fair to say that if you arrived there on the -- you

5 stayed from the 3rd of July to the 19th of December, about half a year; is

6 that correct?

7 A. That's right, a little less. About half a year, yes.

8 Q. During this half year, were you ever taken out to perform labour?

9 A. It was a regular occurrence in my case. I was taken to work

10 practically every day except when after a forced labour shift, I felt ill.

11 My pressure shot up, and then a doctor -- we had a doctor who was also an

12 inmate, I think. And he gave me some tablets to bring my pressure down.

13 Because it had gone up to 24 by 150, so I couldn't really keep on my feet.

14 And that was the only time, perhaps a week or maybe two, when I didn't

15 have to go to the front line.

16 But all in all, I went there every day.

17 Q. Now, what kind of work did they order you to do?

18 A. Well, we mostly dug trenches, protected them with sandbags, made

19 parapets, that is, fortified lines.

20 Q. Could you indicate on which lines you worked, where, the various

21 locations where you worked?

22 A. I was on all parts of the front line, from Santiceva to Bulevar to

23 students' hostel, Hum, Buna, towards Mostar, towards the airport, all

24 over, all of the segments of the front line.

25 Q. You've mentioned Santiceva Street.

Page 7866












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7867

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How many days -- do you recall how many days you worked at the

3 Santiceva Street?

4 A. I worked for about four days on Santiceva.

5 Q. Was this four consecutive days or were these all spread around in

6 the period that you were staying at the Heliodrom?

7 A. Four consecutive days.

8 Q. And do you recall approximately when that was?

9 A. I do not recall dates, but I think it was August. Mid-August

10 could have been; I'm not sure.

11 Q. Could you please describe the work you had to do at Santiceva

12 Street and under which conditions this -- you had to do this work?

13 A. The Santiceva Street was hell for the prisoners really. It was a

14 terrible situation. I know that part of town; in fact, I did not live

15 very far from there. Also, I went to school there. And I knew that

16 street as my own street. When I first came to the Santiceva Street, I did

17 not know where I was. In fact, literally, you could not recognise it. So

18 that we who had known that part of town where all surprised, even though

19 most of the people who went there had never been there before.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

21 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I would object to the

22 answer; it's non-responsive. The question was simply to describe the work

23 this witness did on Santiceva Street, and we have gone on for ten lines

24 with no description of the work he did. It's a non-responsive answer and

25 I object on those grounds.

Page 7868

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe the witness will come to that very

2 point. And it is his first time to be in the courtroom.

3 A. I did not finish.

4 JUDGE LIU: You may continue, Witness.

5 A. I just wanted to say in a way of introduction to what then

6 followed. But if you asked what we did at the front line at Santiceva

7 Street, we had -- the first night when I got there, people had been

8 working there before, but there were two cars there. I don't know what

9 makes. We had to pull them to a building that was in the backyard of

10 buildings. It was not on the street. It was behind the building. And

11 when we placed them in their positions, then we were bringing the sandbags

12 there to build some kind of a parapet, I guess. The worst of it was, as

13 far as my work is concerned, with several fellow prisoners, was when we

14 had to bring to a building -- and I don't know what the purpose of it was.

15 We were brought these bottles filled with gas, and they were filled with

16 explosives, and it had some kind of a string attached to it. We had to

17 light and then leave quickly. You can imagine what it was like when we

18 were caught between -- in the crossfire. In front of us was the ABiH, and

19 behind us was the HVO, and we were caught up in the middle. And you had

20 to carry out all this work.

21 Q. Is it -- do I understand you to say that while you were doing

22 these tasks, that people were shooting around the area where you were,

23 where you were doing this?

24 A. It was never without shooting. It was rare that there was no

25 shooting. The shooting went on almost all the time. That was the most

Page 7869

1 terrible part of it, the shooting in the location where I was.

2 Q. Now, Witness, do you know for which military units you worked, for

3 which soldiers you had to do this work?

4 A. No. I did not have an opportunity to ask that, nor did I dare ask

5 such questions. I simply did my work. And at a point -- at that time,

6 when I was working, I was not interested in that. All I was interested

7 was to try to save my life, to stay alive. That is what was important for

8 me, simply put. But I did know the commander there. I had known him

9 personally. But what units he was in charge of, what he was a commander

10 of, whether that was police or not, I don't know. But I know that Braco

11 Merdzo was in command. I knew him, and I knew him personally.

12 Q. Witness, in those days that you were at Santiceva Street, were you

13 ever at a place called the Hotel Ero?

14 A. Hotel Ero, no, we had nothing to do there. We only entered into

15 the basement of the Hotel Ero, or it may have been an underground garage,

16 from the Santiceva Street. And we would make coffee. Sometimes we would

17 stay there 15, 20 minutes to rest up, to have something to eat if we had

18 any food and then go back to the confrontation line.

19 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown first Exhibit 11, and then

20 Exhibit 11.6, maybe both of them. Maybe first is Exhibit 11.6, the

21 photograph, could be placed on the ELMO.

22 Q. Witness, do you recognise this photograph?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. What is it?

25 A. That's the Hotel Ero.

Page 7870

1 Q. So is this the building where you would stay, as you testified, in

2 the basement of during breaks at the time you were working at

3 Santiceva Street?

4 A. Yes, but you cannot see it from here. It is the entrance from the

5 other street, over there. We would enter from the opposite side.

6 Q. So we see a street here in front of the hotel. That's not the

7 Santiceva Street. Is that your testimony?

8 A. No. This is the street, I believe it was called Mosa Pijade. I

9 don't know what it's called now, but...

10 Q. Could the witness now be shown Exhibit 11, please. And I would

11 like to have the unmarked map, so the one without the photographs. We

12 have a copy here. That's Exhibit 11.18; I'm sorry, I thought it was

13 Exhibit 11. If that could be placed on the ELMO, please.

14 Now, Witness, please familiarise yourself with the map, and if you

15 could indicate where the Hotel Ero was located on this map.

16 A. [Indicates]

17 Q. Maybe you could again with a marker put a cross where the

18 Hotel Ero was located.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Now, you said that you had coffee breaks in this Hotel Ero in the

21 basement. Did you ever encounter a commanding person in that area?

22 A. Which commander? Can you please repeat the question.

23 Q. While you were at this basement, did there come a time that this

24 man you have been referring to as Mr. Merdzo, did he come and approach you

25 at one moment? And was there anyone else with him at that time as well?

Page 7871

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

2 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I object to the leading

3 and suggestive nature of that question.

4 MR. BOS: Well, the witness asked me to clarify a bit more what

5 the question --

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed, Mr. Bos.

7 MR. BOS:

8 Q. Could you answer the question, please, Witness.

9 A. Yes, I did see Merdzo there. He did come there, and we were

10 brought there. And he was in contact with the people who were there. I

11 don't know what they were talking about. We would be on one end, and they

12 would be on the other. I could not hear what they were talking about, nor

13 was I particularly interested in it. But he was a regular there.

14 Q. Did you ever see him talking with a particular person?

15 MR. MEEK: No, Your Honours, I object on the grounds that it has

16 been asked and answered. The question has been asked and answered. He

17 asked him who he saw, he said he saw Merdzo there, and -- it has already

18 been answered.

19 JUDGE LIU: No, I don't think this question has been answered.

20 The question is: Did you ever see him talking with a particular person?

21 It's more specific.

22 MR. MEEK: My objection goes to the vagueness -- the form of the

23 question is very vague.

24 JUDGE LIU: I think the Prosecutor is trying his best to avoid any

25 leading questions in this aspect. Let him fish for a while.

Page 7872












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Page 7873

1 You may proceed, Mr. Bos.

2 MR. BOS:

3 Q. So Witness AB, did you ever see this Mr. Merdzo talk to a

4 particular person, and did you later find out whose name it was?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who was this person?

7 A. That was Naletilic, Tuta. I need to clarify that, if you permit

8 me.

9 Q. Just tell us the circumstances under which you saw the two

10 talking, where you were situated, how far it was, and so please elaborate

11 a little bit.

12 A. We were on a break at that time, and we may have been there about

13 10 minutes. And then first Merdzo came. He told to the person who had

14 brought us there, the soldier, "Take those balijas back or I'll kill them

15 all." Then this man told him something, I guess he was also fed up

16 because there was so much shooting going on around there. People were

17 getting wounded or killed. And then this man came -- I did not even know

18 that he was Tuta. I may have known of him only from newspapers, and then

19 one of my fellow prisoners said, "You know who this is?" And he had come

20 with two other people. And he said that he was Tuta, even though I had

21 never seen this man before, nor did I have any contact with him in my

22 whole life. That is how I saw him, and I never saw him again.

23 Q. Could you describe him.

24 A. I remember well. I remember him well from that time. He was --

25 he had this uniform, what do you call it? Like a military uniform,

Page 7874

1 camouflage, long hair, probably. I did not look very closely. I was

2 afraid to look.

3 Q. Could you give a few more description. You've said he had a

4 camouflage uniform and long hair. Did you recognise anything else?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was the colour of his hair?

7 A. Excuse me?

8 Q. You've testified that he had long hair. Can you give a few more

9 extra details; for example, what was the colour of his hair, did he have a

10 beard, did he have glasses, anything of that nature? Do you know a bit

11 more?

12 A. I think he had grey hair. And at that time, no, he did not wear

13 glasses at that moment. Listen, at that point, if I had known that I

14 would be in a situation where I would need to describe this man, I perhaps

15 would have given him a closer look. But I was beside myself. I knew that

16 it is who -- it is he that it was. And past that, I did not have much

17 interest in anything else.

18 Q. Could you look around in this courtroom and see whether the man

19 you saw you claim to have been Tuta, is he in this courtroom today? Could

20 you look around and see if you identify him?

21 A. Of course I can.

22 Q. Would you please describe him for the record. Where is he seated

23 and what is he wearing?

24 A. In the back row, third. He is wearing a suit and a tie. Sorry,

25 in fact, he's in the middle.

Page 7875

1 MR. BOS: May the record reflect that the witness identified the

2 accused Mladen Naletilic.

3 Q. Now, Witness, you said that you later on found out who this man

4 was. Did you also find out what his military position was?

5 A. I heard about it, again, from stories. But to be honest with you,

6 I did not know what his position was or who he was.

7 Q. Do you know for which unit he served, which military unit?

8 A. In Mostar, people were saying that this was Tuta's unit. I don't

9 know if their name was convicts unit or something like that. As I said,

10 these military things, I did not have enough contact to gain that kind of

11 knowledge about names of units. And again, in the final analysis, it

12 wasn't really of much interest to me anyway. But I heard that it was

13 Tuta's unit, that it did exist.

14 Q. Witness, do you know whether soldiers of Tuta's unit were actually

15 working at Santiceva Street?

16 A. I know that. I heard that these units existed, that they were on

17 Santiceva Street, even though from among the men who were there, I did not

18 know any. You should know that at that point, for the prisoners it was

19 not important whose unit it was, or at least to me it was not important.

20 That was not that important. What was important was to just stay alive,

21 to survive. And as to who was forcing you to work, who was shooting, that

22 was a side matter.

23 And I could have been killed either by a bullet that would come

24 from behind or from a bullet that would come from the ABiH that were in

25 front of us. It was a nightmare. I don't know, but for instance, I heard

Page 7876

1 about this Solaja. And whether he was under Tuta, too, or not, that I

2 don't know.

3 Q. Witness, while you were there at Santiceva Street in those three

4 or four days, did you ever eyewitness any detainees getting killed or

5 injured?

6 A. I experienced that. I think it was on the third or fourth day --

7 the fourth day was hellish, at least while I was there, from the rumour, I

8 was, from my cellblock [as interpreted]. I think over 30 of us were taken

9 to Santiceva Street. And over 20 men were wounded, and a fellow inmate

10 was killed at that time. But that night was hell. Many, many were

11 wounded. It so happened that I was not. I prayed to God that night to --

12 rather have me killed, so that I would not be disabled. But this Zuka was

13 killed. It was a man who was about 30 years of age. His last name was

14 Zukanovic, and he was in my room. We pulled him out, and then he was

15 taken somewhere, I don't know where. When we reached the area behind that

16 car, he was already dead. We were repairing a parapet, and we were

17 supposed to push the car a little bit ahead some 5 metres. And he just

18 knelt down and fell. Another fellow prisoner and I pulled him out. It

19 was hard for us to pull him out because he was fairly big. And then they

20 took him either to the hospital or the morgue.

21 Q. Witness, can I ask you, you described this day as particularly

22 hellish. Why was it worse than the other days at Santiceva Street?

23 A. I don't know why it was worse. Probably because there was some

24 kind of operation that had us go to move the line. I don't know. But

25 that day, in any event --

Page 7877

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

2 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I object to the witness

3 purely guessing and speculating now. I don't think it's proper for the

4 witness, a fact witness, to speculate and guess.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, in your testimony, you have to tell us

6 what you saw and what is your recollections, rather than what you heard

7 and guessed.

8 Yes, you may continue, Witness.

9 MR. BOS:

10 Q. I'll repeat my question. Compared to what you experienced that

11 day, why was it worse than the other days? And just describe the

12 situation.

13 A. I don't know why it was worse, but that day, it was a real war.

14 It was hell. Why that happened, I have no idea. But that day was

15 unbearable. Those who lived through it, and I myself, the next day, I saw

16 that I just couldn't stand on my feet. I think that I was mentally gone,

17 or that day my blood pressure shot up. But I don't know what the purpose

18 of that was. I know that it was terrible.

19 Q. Witness, you just testified before that you saw this man named

20 Tuta at the Ero Hotel. Was that the same day as the day you described

21 now, or was it a few days before or after this particular day you've just

22 described?

23 A. That was before, I think a couple of days before. But not at the

24 Hotel Ero. We were not allowed to go into the hotel. It was strictly

25 forbidden to us.

Page 7878












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7879

1 Q. The basement of the hotel, I mean. That's what you --

2 A. That's right. That's right. It was a day earlier, day before.

3 But not that day.

4 Q. Now, Witness, were you ever assigned to any other tasks than

5 working at the confrontation lines? Did you do any other sort of labour

6 as well?

7 A. I did.

8 Q. What kind of other work did you do?

9 A. I did everything, from the front line, to apartment looting, house

10 plundering, removing everything that people used to own.

11 Q. So you've said that you looted apartments. How many times did you

12 do this?

13 A. I went several times. It was always different people who went. I

14 went several times.

15 Q. And for which group of soldiers did you have to do this?

16 A. I've no idea what group of soldiers it was. But I did that. They

17 were military. They would come to the camp, pick us up, and take us, and

18 we wouldn't know where -- whether we were being taken to dig trenches or

19 make bunkers or carry furniture out of other people's flats. It's only

20 when they bring you to a place that you see what you are supposed to do.

21 Q. Witness, the map is still on the overhead projector. Could you

22 indicate the areas in Mostar, or if it was in Mostar, and if you can

23 indicate it, where you actually had to loot houses.

24 THE INTERPRETER: If the witness could speak into the microphone,

25 please.

Page 7880

1 MR. BOS:

2 Q. Witness, you need to speak into the microphone.

3 A. Next to the northern entrance into the Velez stadium, there is a

4 settlement, a locality there, and that is where we did that.

5 Q. Could you please indicate it on the map, and maybe put a mark with

6 an "L" next to it, please.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Now, on that occasion, did you recognise any of the soldiers who

9 were there with you?

10 A. You mean those who forced us to do that?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Personally, those soldiers who came to get us from the camp, who

13 took us to loot those flats, I did not know them personally.

14 Q. The soldiers who were there present at the flat, not -- did you

15 recognise any of them?

16 A. In that flat -- it was only downstairs. While we were doing a

17 job, we would go in with two soldiers, and they would tell us what we were

18 to take out and load on to trucks. And once, and again, I'm saying this

19 with a reservation, I once saw Mr. Martinovic downstairs with some

20 soldiers, although that same gentleman did not issue any orders to us or

21 communicated with us in any way what he was doing with those soldiers.

22 Whether it was under him or not, I do not know that. But we had to load

23 all those things, and those were mostly things of some value. We had to

24 load them into a truck, and we did not then go with that truck to unload

25 it. We had to wait for another truck to come up. Where this was

Page 7881

1 unloaded, I don't know.

2 Q. You have been referring to a man name -- you called

3 Mr. Martinovic. Did you know this man from before the war?

4 A. I knew Martinovic by sight. We were not acquainted. I mean, we

5 were never introduced to one another, but I knew him by sight. I mean, I

6 knew him. I knew who he was, although I had never any contact with him or

7 any...

8 Q. These apartments that you looted, were these apartments that

9 belonged to Muslim people? Do you know that?

10 A. All Muslim, I do not know. This is an assumption again. But I

11 suppose that was the case. I did not see many nameplates on doors.

12 Mostly there was nobody in those flats. They were abandoned, no owners,

13 or anyone. These flats had been vacated. And we took things from those

14 flats.

15 Q. Witness, a little bit earlier on in your testimony, you said that

16 you also worked at the Studenski Dom. What is it that you had to do

17 there, and for how many days did you work there?

18 A. I can say that the quietest few days of all my days in the camp

19 was at the students' hostel, those two or three days. Nobody beat me

20 there, nobody harassed me there. That was the only time in camp when I

21 wished I would go to the students' hostel the next day, too. I and a

22 group of others were there, we were about 10 there. And we prepared beds

23 there for Croat troops and carrying beds upstairs and placing around,

24 arranging six to eight beds.

25 Q. Do you recall how many beds you mounted in that -- in those days?

Page 7882

1 A. I think we put together about 200 beds - couldn't be less - in

2 those few days.

3 Q. You said you had to mount these beds for Croat troops. How did

4 you know that, that these beds were meant for Croat troops?

5 A. I knew it because I talked with those people. There was already a

6 group of them there. And I even talked with a man from Osijek.

7 Q. How many Croat soldiers were already there?

8 A. Well, I wouldn't know how many soldiers exactly. I cannot say

9 that because I could have no knowledge of that. But there must have been

10 30, 40. But I just don't know. I can't say exactly. But they were

11 there. I saw them, and I talked with those people. There was one from

12 Split, from Osijek -- from Osijek, and they even gave me cigarettes. I

13 sat down with them.

14 Q. The map is still on the overhead projector. Could you indicate

15 the area where this Studenski Dom is located in Mostar, maybe if you could

16 put them...

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Maybe you can put an "S" next to it.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Witness, you've talked about Tuta's unit. Do you know any member

21 of Tuta's unit personally?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What's his name?

24 A. I personally know -- I knew him well before the war. And his name

25 is Kemo Selmanovic.

Page 7883

1 Q. And how come that -- how did you know him? How were you

2 acquainted to him?

3 A. We knew one another before the war because we lived in the same

4 neighbourhood, and his brother was my school fellow. I simply knew him

5 from before the war. I also know his father well. He had a shop in the

6 old town.

7 Q. Did you ever see this Kemo whilst you were detained at the

8 Heliodrom?

9 A. Yes. Yes, I did see him at the Heliodrom.

10 Q. Did you speak with him on that occasion?

11 A. No. Once I had just been brought to the Heliodrom, and they were

12 taking me for some interrogation -- or rather, to another building. And I

13 was walking with two other men. He came towards me, and he stopped to --

14 and asked me if I needed any cigarettes or something. And I said no,

15 thank you. And that was when I saw him, but that was just in passing,

16 just a fleeting moment.

17 Q. What was he wearing at that time that you saw him?

18 A. A uniform. A uniform, and he had a pistol. I'm sure of that.

19 Q. Is this man Kemo Selmanovic, what's his ethnicity?

20 A. He's a Muslim.

21 Q. Did you later find out that this Mr. Selmanovic also visited your

22 wife and your brother-in-law at the time that you were in the Heliodrom?

23 A. He did, yes.

24 Q. What did your wife tell you about that visit -- or I don't know if

25 there were more visits than just one.

Page 7884












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7885

1 A. He was on friendly terms with my wife's brother so that as my wife

2 told me, came several times and would stay there, would sit there for a

3 while. On several occasions, he came -- she told me. I'm telling you

4 what I heard. I did not see that, and this is what my wife told me. Once

5 he came and -- well, I don't know what state he was in. But he was there,

6 and he showed to them a handful of keys, saying that he had driven out

7 those Muslims that day or the day before, that is, he bragged about it.

8 He seemed to take pride in the -- in this fact, in having driven several

9 families from their homes. And that same Kemo, I suppose my family was

10 driven out sometime in October. And I believe that he, since my family

11 was with my brother's wife's family, that is, they were together in one

12 flat, I think that is what they are assuming, too, that Kemo had helped

13 them to stay there longer than others, even though that wasn't much help

14 really. Perhaps it would have been better for them had they been driven

15 earlier. But they were among the last to be driven across to the left

16 bank, I mean my wife and children.

17 Q. Maybe let's just talk about what happened to your wife and your

18 children, because what did they do after you were taken to the Heliodrom?

19 Where did they go?

20 A. They stayed at my brother's for another two or three days, but it

21 wasn't really particularly good so that my wife decided to go back to our

22 flat. But when she got there, she hardly found anything there. I mean,

23 things were gone, furniture was gone. There was nowhere to lie down. But

24 she was there for a while, for about a fortnight or so. And then she was

25 chased out of there, too. That is, they came one day and expelled her

Page 7886

1 from it, and it was only then that she went to her mother's, to Avenija,

2 so that she had to leave the flat. And she never went back.

3 Q. You said that they came, and then she had to leave her apartment,

4 who is "they"?

5 A. Well, according to what she says, a soldier, a military came. But

6 she wasn't -- she found that out later, because later on, she went there,

7 she spent some time around and found out that man who was in Mostar but

8 that he came originally from Konjic. I don't know his name or anything.

9 But be that as it may, that man moved into our flat which was practically

10 empty. How long he lived there, I don't know, not long probably because

11 he could not do that either.

12 Q. Did your wife find out from which army this soldier was?

13 A. I don't -- I think not.

14 Q. So you said that she then moved to her mother's place. Now, where

15 did her mother live?

16 A. Her mother lived on Rudarska Street, near the old Velez pitch. It

17 used to be Rudarska Kolonija. Minus colony now. I don't know what it's

18 called.

19 Q. Is this in West Mostar?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I think you've already touched upon it a little bit, but what

22 happened in October in that year, 1993, to them?

23 A. Yes. You mean when they were expelled?

24 Q. Yes. Would you please describe how this happened and who expelled

25 them.

Page 7887

1 A. Well, I'm again telling you what I heard, if you will accept that.

2 They were expelled in late October, and then two or three men came. But

3 there was a neighbour of theirs there who had -- who entered the house

4 directly and told them they had to leave, they had to cross the river.

5 That fellow -- but I have to go back. My children were brought up at my

6 mother-in-law's place so that my daughter, especially my older daughter

7 knew that man well. And he was Solaja, and they used to play together

8 when they were little children. But he was ruthless, they had to leave,

9 they had to leave that apartment, my wife, my children, mother-in-law, my

10 brother-in-law, his wife, his children. Now, the problem was that my

11 younger daughter was not there because she was playing somewhere outside

12 or was visiting somebody. I don't know. At any rate, she wasn't there,

13 and so my wife started crying and saying, "Well, until we find the child,

14 we won't go." But they refused to accept that and took them to Bulevar.

15 [redacted]

16 Q. Who is he?

17 A. Well, this one, Solaja. So they expelled them, took them there,

18 they crossed over. What do I know? And he returned. Meanwhile, my

19 youngest daughter had returned to the flat and found nobody there and saw

20 that there was nobody. And of course, she was frightened and didn't know

21 what to do and where to go. So she came down the stairs again to come out

22 and see where everybody was. But this Solaja had returned in the

23 meantime, and they met, and he took her to Bulevar so as to take her to

24 the left bank also. And so he did. And they then met again on the other

25 side.

Page 7888

1 Q. All right, Witness, I'm almost done with my examination-in-chief.

2 There's only one thing I want to look at, which is Exhibit 704.

3 MR. BOS: Mr. Usher, there's -- well, maybe if he could first look

4 at the front page and read out the title of the document.

5 A. "The payroll for November 1993. You will found enclosed here with

6 the payroll for the members of the Convicts Battalion for November 1993,

7 anti-terrorist group, commander of the Convicts Battalion, Mladen

8 Naletilic, Tuta."

9 Q. Witness, I would first like you to look at the page, and maybe the

10 usher can assist you. I want you to go to page number 00795386. And

11 these numbers are indicated on the top right-hand corner.

12 A. Excuse me, excuse me, 00795386. Is that it?

13 Q. Yes. Could you please read out what's written there before the

14 list of names starts.

15 A. "Defence department, Convicts Battalion" --

16 Q. No, underneath that.

17 A. "Number 022/2-403/93, Siroki Brijeg, 02121993."

18 Q. Well, actually what I wanted to know is the next thing which is

19 then written down there.

20 A. "ATG, Vinko Skrobo."

21 Q. Could you then move to number 22. Whose name appears there?

22 A. "Dario Solaja," yes.

23 Q. Is that the man you have been referring to?

24 A. Yes, that is him.

25 Q. Could you now go to page number 00795361. And would you again

Page 7889

1 read what's written on the top of it just above the line.

2 A. "Defence Department, combat group 6."

3 Q. Could you then read out the name which is under Number 12.

4 A. "Kemo Semanovic".

5 Q. Is that the person you have been testifying about today?

6 A. That's right. Yes.

7 MR. BOS: No further questions, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, there is five minutes to the break. Are you

9 going to do the cross-examination in the morning session, or prefer to do

10 it in the afternoon, Mr. Meek?

11 MR. MEEK: We would prefer to do it after lunch, Your Honour.

12 Perhaps if we do, it will be much shorter and concise if we can look at

13 our notes during the lunch hour. We would prefer 2.30, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much.

15 Mr. Usher, would you please show the witness out of the room after

16 pulling down the blinds.

17 We will resume at 2.30 this afternoon.

18 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.57 p.m.








Page 7890












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7891

1 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par.

3 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Before the witness is let back in, I

4 would like to use the opportunity to let you know about the letter

5 with -- this counsel has sent to Dr. Skavic in relation to his opinion.

6 This was the exhibit which was marked as D2/25. I have already furnished

7 the Registry with a copy of the translation and all the correspondence

8 between us, and Dr. Skavic and I have also provided a copy of the sets to

9 the Prosecution before -- during the lunch break. Thank you.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation.

11 Mr. Usher, would you please bring the witness in.

12 Good afternoon, Witness. You may sit down, please.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination, Mr. Meek?

15 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President. Could we have the ELMO

16 lowered. Thank you.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Meek:

18 Q. Good afternoon, Witness AB. How are you?

19 A. Very well, thank you.

20 Q. My name is Mr. Meek, and I represent one of the -- I am one of the

21 attorneys representing Mr. Naletilic. I have a few questions for you. Is

22 it my understanding that you were arrested and taken into custody on the

23 same date to the Heliodrom, on 19th day of July, 1993?

24 A. No, you did not get it right. I was taken on the 3rd of July, and

25 my family was expelled from the apartment on the 19th of July.

Page 7892

1 Q. Can you tell me where you lived, then, between the 9th day of May,

2 which you -- which date you testified about on your direct examination,

3 and the 3rd day of July when you were taken into custody.

4 A. Between 9 May and 1st of July, I lived in my apartment. We were

5 all together. And then we moved over to my brother's from where I was

6 taken to the camp, and my wife moved back into the apartment.

7 Q. Is it a fact, then, that between 9 May of 1993 and the 3rd day of

8 July, 1993, there were no soldiers coming to your apartment except on one

9 occasion that you testified concerning?

10 A. From 9 May to 1 July, they came twice. I already stated that.

11 Q. Thank you. You testified in your direct examination that you

12 were -- had personal contact with an individual named Braco Merdzo, and

13 that you knew him personally; is that correct?

14 A. I did not say that I had personal contact during my stay at the

15 Santiceva Street, but I knew him and he knew me. But we did not have any

16 contact while I was working on Santiceva Street, or during the breaks.

17 When I would see him, we would not talk.

18 Q. Am I made to understand that you did know this gentleman prior to

19 the war; is that correct?

20 A. Yes. I know where he lives -- we simply knew each other for a

21 number of years prior to that.

22 Q. Was he a commander of the military police stationed in Mostar?

23 A. I heard that, but I cannot confirm that for you. I don't have a

24 source of information that would allow me to confirm it. I only heard

25 that that is what he was, but that's all I can say.

Page 7893

1 Q. Thank you.

2 Did you also hear or did you become aware that this gentleman,

3 Mr. Merdzo, was indicted with four others and tried in Mostar for war

4 crimes whereupon he was acquitted?

5 A. Yes. Yes, unfortunately.

6 Q. Witness AB, thank you for your testimony. Thank you for coming.

7 And I wish you the best of luck in the rest of your luck.

8 MR. MEEK: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

9 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination? Yes, Mr. Seric.

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence of Vinko

11 Martinovic has no good reason to cross-examine this witness.

12 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination, Mr. Bos?

13 MR. BOS: No, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from Judges? Judge Diarra.

15 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Questioned by the Court:

17 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Witness -- had to mount beds for

18 Croatian troops, were HVO soldiers also wearing uniforms? And if that is

19 the case, how were you able to distinguish between Croatians and HVO? How

20 did you make the difference between the two of them?

21 A. They had -- I believe they had different insignia. They also had

22 these combat uniforms, but I had contact with them, and they told me that

23 that is where they had come from. I had personal contact with them. But

24 as far as the uniforms are concerned, they were not very different. You

25 could not distinguish.

Page 7894

1 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

2 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge's questions?

3 MR. MEEK: None, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

5 Thank you, Witness, for coming here to give us the evidence. When

6 the usher pulls down the blinds, he will show you out of the room. We all

7 wish you good luck in your future.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

11 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour. I have two exhibits, which I would

12 like to tender. One is the photograph 20.9, which was marked by the

13 witness; that's the photograph of the Heliodrom, building at the

14 Heliodrom. And I think it gets the number 20.9/2. Is that correct?

15 And the other exhibit is the little map of Mostar, which the

16 witness made various marks on. And that, I think, will become

17 Exhibit 11.18/10. Those are the two exhibits I'd like to tender.

18 JUDGE LIU: I guess there's no objections from Defence side?

19 MR. MEEK: None, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. So they are admitted into the evidence.

21 And Madam Registrar will give each a proper number, I believe.

22 Yes, how about the next witness.

23 MR. BOS: The next witness will be examined by Mr. Poriouvaev.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, the witness who is called to testify

25 now requested the following protective measures: Pseudonym and facial

Page 7895

1 image distortion, and I would say that the situation with this witness is

2 very sensitive. As you may know from his summaries, or his witness

3 statements, he served -- being in Mostar, he served in the HVO. So his

4 situation is very sensitive, and he requested such kind of protective

5 measures, [redacted]. But we cannot rule out the

6 possibility that some day he will travel to Bosnia. So this is my request

7 to the Trial Chamber.

8 JUDGE LIU: Are there any objections to those protective measures?

9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No objection.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

11 MR. MEEK: None, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Your request for the protective measures

13 is granted. Would you please brief us on the relevance to the indictment,

14 please.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour. My question will go mostly to

16 background, paragraph 7, 10, 11; superior authority, paragraphs 14

17 through 17; general allegations, paragraph 18; count 1, paragraphs 26

18 through 28, 32, 34(a), (b), (d); counts 2 through 8, paragraphs 35 to 38;

19 count 18, paragraph 54; and count 21, paragraph 57.

20 Your Honour, I -- there was a slip of my tongue. I myself

21 disclosed information about the witness. [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Did you prepare a piece of paper?

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour. The next witness will be AC.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 7896












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7897

1 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

3 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

4 accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you.

5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

6 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please.

10 A. Thank you.

11 Examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

12 Q. Witness, good afternoon.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. Sit closer to the microphone. Otherwise we'll not understand each

15 other.

16 Witness, your request for protective measures has been granted by

17 the Trial Chamber. Now you will be called "Witness AC," and your facial

18 image will also be distorted so that the public would not see it on the

19 screen. If you need for some reason to reveal some names of people who

20 are close to you, we should go then into private session. But I shall

21 warn you if we need a private session, and I will request it from the

22 Trial Chamber. Otherwise, you should not pronounce the names of people

23 close, next of kin, for example, your brothers, mother, father, and so on,

24 because their names re also -- should be protected. Is it clear?

25 A. It's clear. It is, yes.

Page 7898

1 Q. Witness AC has fluent English, but he prefers to give his

2 testimony still in his own language, so he will give testimony in B/C/S.

3 Witness, you were born in Mostar 1975 and lived there more or less

4 continuously until November 1993. Is it correct?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. Is that correct that you grew up and lived on the west side of

7 Mostar?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. Do you still have any relatives living in Mostar?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Witness AC, have you ever known a person named Stela?

12 A. Yes, I do. Vinko Martinovic, Stela.

13 Q. How and when did you get acquainted with him?

14 A. Stela, Vinko Martinovic worked as a taxi driver in Balinovac, and

15 I have known him practically all my life. He lived not far from my home,

16 and in fact, he was on friendly terms with my father.

17 Q. Did he know personally you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Witness, I will not expound too much on your participation in the

20 war against the Serbs, but I cannot skip this part of your background,

21 just we'll discuss this probably in very general terms, I think.

22 So I am directing you to April 1992 where you were in any way

23 involved with the defence of Mostar against the Serbs. Could you briefly

24 inform the Trial Chamber about this period in your background?

25 A. Well, during the defence of Mostar, I started my participation by

Page 7899

1 putting up posters of Ali Izetbegovic and President Tudjman. When the war

2 started, the weapons were distributed and part of the weapons were also in

3 my house.

4 Q. Let's agree upon one issue. You should slow down, not to create

5 problems for the interpreters. Okay?

6 A. Are we ready now?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. When the weapons were distributed, part of them were in my house.

9 I took myself a rifle, and I said that nobody can take this rifle away

10 from me.

11 Q. Did anyone else from your family participate in the defence of

12 Mostar as well?

13 A. Yes, my brother participated in it.

14 Q. To which unit did you belong at that time?

15 A. At first, it was the defence of Mostar, and later on, we joined

16 the 4th Battalion Tihomir Misic.

17 Q. Was it during the Serb war?

18 A. Yes, during the war against the Serbs, I spent that whole period

19 in the Tihomir Misic, 4th Battalion of the HVO.

20 Q. And who did you consider during that period of time was the

21 commander, either officially or unofficially?

22 A. Can you make that question more specific, please.

23 Q. Yes. Who was your commander within that unit, I mean the

24 4th Battalion?

25 A. The very beginning, it was Tihomir Misic, called Tiho. After his

Page 7900

1 death, his father took over, Mladen Misic, nicknamed Dedo.

2 Q. Who was your group commander?

3 A. At first, it was Vinko Martinovic, called Vina.

4 Q. Let's clarify this issue now. Just Vinko Martinovic. Is it the

5 same Vinko Martinovic that has the nickname of Stela, or different?

6 A. No, it is a different person.

7 Q. How long did you stay on the confrontation line with the Serbs?

8 A. I stayed from the very beginning of the war, and until the

9 beginning of the war between the Muslims and the Croats, which means

10 between a year and a year and a half.

11 Q. But were you still keeping with the front lines in the beginning

12 of 1993?

13 A. Yes, I was at the front line. I was at the front line until May

14 of 1993.

15 Q. And what was happening in Mostar just in the beginning -- in the

16 end of April and in the beginning of May? Did you observe any changes in

17 the situation in Mostar?

18 A. Yes, I did notice a number of changes in Mostar. There were even

19 rumours that war would break out between the Muslims and the Croats. I

20 could not believe that because until then, we were standing shoulder to

21 shoulder, and we were jointly defending the city against the same enemy.

22 One of my friends told me that the war would break out, and that he was

23 packing his belongings and moving to the east side of Mostar.

24 I couldn't believe the situation. I just could not even think

25 that what happened between the Croats and Muslims was -- really happened.

Page 7901

1 And I thought that perhaps there would be just a small skirmish or

2 something like that.

3 Q. And what happened to you just on the eve, let's say, the beginning

4 of the war, the 9th of May? Where did you spend the 8th of May, 1993?

5 A. I was in a restaurant called Oasa, oasis, that was the gathering

6 place for people with whom I usually spent my time on the front line

7 during the war.

8 Q. Who else was present there?

9 A. Mario Milicevic, called Baja, was there.

10 Q. Your brother was also present there?

11 A. Yes, there was my brother, too, and other members of that group

12 that I belonged to.

13 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber about the person whom you called

14 Mario Milicevic or Baja. Did you know him before?

15 A. I've known this person practically all my life. [redacted]

16 [redacted]. That day, he

17 told me -- I mean the 8th of May, he told me that he had to go and have a

18 meeting with my Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, with regard to some conflicts that

19 would be erupting between Muslims and Croats. He said that we were --

20 that a few hours after his meeting with Tuta, we were to meet in his

21 restaurant, which was called Palm Beach. And that then he will explain to

22 us about that conflict, after his meeting with Tuta, and that he would

23 tell us more about that when we met at the Palm Beach.

24 Q. Did you meet with him in the second restaurant?

25 A. Yes, after a while, that is, a few hours later, we met in that

Page 7902












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7903

1 coffee shop, and Baja explained certain things that were going on at the

2 time.

3 Q. And what did he explain to you?

4 A. Well, he explained, he said that on the 9th of May, war would

5 break out between Muslims and Croats. And that he had to seize our

6 weapons from us, but those were his good soldiers, that he would provide

7 us with full protection. And he even allowed us to go, collect our

8 things, and move over to the east side, or stay where we were and share

9 the fate of the then Croats.

10 Q. Going back a little bit to Mario Milicevic, did he occupy any

11 important position in 1992 during the war against the Serbs?

12 A. Oh, come now, he didn't occupy a really important position. He

13 was just a foot soldier, like I was.

14 Q. And now you have just mentioned a certain Tuta. Did you hear this

15 name before?

16 A. Yes. I kept hearing this name throughout the war, even during the

17 war with the Serbs. And I knew that it was a very dangerous battalion or

18 company or whatever you care to call it.

19 Q. Did you know at the time his real name?

20 A. No.

21 Q. When did you learn his name?

22 A. I learned it in the early days of the war between Muslims and

23 Croats.

24 Q. Did Baja explain to you what exactly was being prepared against

25 the Muslims? In Mostar?

Page 7904

1 A. No, Baja did not tell us that exactly. What he did say was that

2 something was afoot, that something would happen. But that at two o'clock

3 a.m., he was to meet with Tuta in his restaurant, Palm Beach, and discuss

4 that situation more, and that the measures that had to be taken would be

5 explained to him at that time, that is, at 2.00 a.m. at the meeting with

6 Tuta.

7 Q. Did he return after the meeting with Tuta?

8 A. Yes, he returned.

9 Q. What was that meeting about?

10 A. Yes, he did. He said that around 5.00 in the morning, a war would

11 break out between Muslims and Croats, and that some parts of the city

12 would be cleansed ethnically of Muslims, and that we, being Muslims, could

13 not take part in it.

14 Q. Did Baja propose or advise you of anything since the situation was

15 being deteriorating?

16 A. Yes, I've just said it, that Baja offered two possibilities, two

17 solutions for us, for the Muslims. The first alternative was to collect

18 our belongings and cross over to the east side, and the second one was to

19 stand shoulder to shoulder to the end.

20 Q. And what was your decision?

21 A. I was very young then, so I couldn't really decide by myself. I

22 didn't really quite have a good grasp of the situation. I didn't really

23 know what was going on. So I decided to wait for the decision of Muslims,

24 I mean other Muslims who were in my company, so that we could arrive at

25 the same decision. And our decision was to stay shoulder to shoulder with

Page 7905

1 the Croats.

2 Q. And why did you opt to stay with the Croats?

3 A. At that time, I could not trust anyone. And we were shoulder to

4 shoulder. We defended each other in the war against Serbs. And the

5 situation changed suddenly radically, and the Muslims and Croats

6 suddenly -- so I just couldn't trust anyone, and I thought it would be

7 best, since if I said, well, right, I'm then going across to the other

8 side, then I thought, well, perhaps they will slaughter all my family

9 because they would then think I was a Muslim, though I was a Muslim, of

10 course.

11 Q. And where did you stay for a couple of days?

12 A. We stayed in Baja's house. They were there for about three to

13 five days, and he offered full guarantees, that nothing would happen to us

14 and our families.

15 Q. How long did you stay there?

16 A. Three to five days.

17 Q. And what did you observe in Mostar on the 9th of May?

18 A. I observed major fighting. I couldn't really see anything because

19 we were in the house. All I could hear was intensive shelling, and there

20 was fierce fighting. One could hear gunfire all around the town. I could

21 hear major detonation which I think came from the direction of Balinovac,

22 when the mosque was mined. And we were scared. We could not do anything

23 on our own. We were just sitting and waiting to see what would happen.

24 Q. And was the mosque destroyed?

25 A. Yes, the mosque was destroyed. It was razed to the ground. It

Page 7906

1 was mined.

2 Q. Do you know who was involved in the explosion of the mosque?

3 A. Well, I could not see who had mined it. I cannot say that I am

4 quite sure about certain things. But from what people said, I learned it

5 was Benito and Kvesic who did it.

6 Q. Do you know to which unit they belonged?

7 A. Yes, they were members of the newly formed unit, an ATG unit,

8 Benko Penavic.

9 Q. Did you talk to Baja in the period of time that you were living in

10 his apartment? Did you -- did he inform you about the events in Mostar?

11 A. Well, Baja dropped in a couple of times and told us not to be

12 afraid, that everything would be all right, and told us that there was

13 fierce fighting at Rondo, Bulevar, along Santiceva, and in other parts of

14 Mostar.

15 Q. Just -- I'm checking the transcript. We have only one name here,

16 Benito, and the other one, who else was involved?

17 A. I think I mentioned those two names already, Benito and Kvesic.

18 Q. Yes, thank you. It was not in the transcript. That's why I asked

19 you again.

20 All right, there came a time when you had to leave Baja's

21 apartment. What was your decision? What were your options?

22 A. I'm sorry. Well, Baja said that we would also be his soldiers,

23 that we would be members of the Benko Penavic AT group. He gave us back

24 our weapons and explained to us certain things. And those things were

25 that in -- during his meeting with Tuta, Tuta told him that he did not

Page 7907

1 trust Muslims and did not want any Muslims in his unit. But if Baja

2 trusted those men of his own that much, that then he could admit them into

3 his unit, but if anything happened, that then it could cost Baja his own

4 life.

5 He also explained to us that he did not want to hear any answer,

6 because he did not want any conflict and any difficulty with Tuta.

7 Q. And what did he tell you about his unit?

8 A. Could you be more specific?

9 Q. Yes, I would like to know, did he tell you anything concrete about

10 the unit? Who were members of the unit, who was the commander? What was

11 the structure of the unit, more or less?

12 A. I see. He told me that our unit was now a unit under Tuta's

13 authority, that Tuta was number one for those units. He told us that we

14 were to take part in the ethnic cleansing of civilian Muslims in the

15 territory of Mostar and explained to us where our front line was.

16 Q. And what was the name of the unit?

17 A. It was called elite unit ATG Benko Penavic.

18 Q. Do you know what stands for Benko Penavic?

19 A. Well, I don't, but I can guess that it is an Ustasha --

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

21 A. -- from the earlier war.

22 MR. MEEK: I would object to a fact witness such as this guessing.

23 That's my objection.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think this witness's testimony now does not

25 touch upon the central part of the indictment as well as the involvement

Page 7908












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7909

1 of your client. Let's hear the answer from this witness.

2 Witness, you may continue to answer the question?

3 A. Well, I've answered the question already.


5 Q. You did not.

6 A. Can you then ask it again, please.

7 Q. Just I wanted to know if you know why the unit was named Benko

8 Penavic. Do you know anything about the person whose name was or is Benko

9 Penavic?

10 A. I know nothing about that person, about Benko Penavic. But as I

11 have already said, I think this is a name of an old Ustasha from the

12 former war, and that that Ustasha was called Benko Penavic, and the unit

13 was named after him.

14 Q. Thank you. And a little bit about the structure of the unit,

15 Benko Penavic. Yes, my question was to tell me about the structure of the

16 unit. Was it divided into groups, platoons, or something like that?

17 A. Well, it was divided. There were men who were assigned to the

18 front line to defend the front line, and there were also men whose

19 assignment was to cleanse some parts of the town, I mean ethnically

20 cleanse parts of the town of the Muslim population. The latter were also

21 to participate in all possible operations conducted in different parts of

22 Mostar, and in case of some other dangerous ground, we were to be sent

23 there to resolve whatever problems might be there. And those men were

24 picked out by Baja himself.

25 Q. What kind of assignments did you have?

Page 7910

1 A. I was one of those who belonged in this platoon, in this company,

2 which was to conduct the ethnic cleansing of the population, to go into

3 all the necessary -- on all the necessary missions, to bring prisoners

4 from Heliodrom, to guard them during their labour duty as they filled the

5 bags with sand and as they worked on the front line.

6 Q. Did you participate in the ethnic cleansing?

7 A. I did.

8 Q. In what this ethnic cleansing consisting [sic]

9 A. It consisted of -- well, a part of the town is indicated, a

10 borough, a neighbourhood, positions are taken in this neighbourhood, and

11 then you go from one flat to the other, and all the Muslims are thrown out

12 of their flats. These Muslims thrown out of their flats would be loaded

13 onto trucks, some were taken to the Heliodrom, and others would go past

14 the Catholic church and along the Bulevar, and then sent over to the east

15 part of Mostar.

16 Q. Witness, could you indicate on the map the locations from where

17 the Muslims were expelled? I mean, first of all locations in Mostar?

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the usher to show our witness

19 Exhibit Number 11.18. You may take the pointer, the marker. First you

20 should explain and then encircle the area, the relevant area, from where

21 the Muslims were expelled. Of course, I understand that the names of the

22 streets have changed and even the names of some districts have changed.

23 But try to explain, using the map.

24 A. I'll show you now the districts in which I participated in ethnic

25 cleansing, so it would be Podhum, Panjevina, Djikovina, then Strelcevina,

Page 7911

1 Avenija. Here on the map, I don't see some areas which are here. And

2 there I also participated in ethnic cleansing.

3 Q. Okay, just I would ask you to take the marker and just put numbers

4 on the relevant areas; one, two, three, and give the name.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Under number one, what do you mean? Just for the transcript.

7 A. Number one is Zahum. It's this part here, because -- as a matter

8 of fact, I cannot really be very definite here on the map. But it's

9 roughly here.

10 Q. Second.

11 A. The second is Panjevina.

12 Q. Number three.

13 A. Number 3 is Kralja Tvrtka which was called Dum, and then a

14 locality next to the school of medicine.

15 Q. Number 5.

16 A. Number 5 is Avenija, and around Mostarka building

17 Q. All right. Did you have any specific instructions from your

18 commanders how to treat the Muslims during the cleansing operations?

19 A. It was very hard. We were to seize the keys to the flats from

20 those Muslims. All of the jewellery, everything valuable they would have

21 around their necks, wrists, fingers, and in case of resistance, we were to

22 trample over them. So some did resist, and they would get the pistol or

23 the rifle on the head and so on and so forth. It's not easy to go back to

24 those old days, so I'd really not elaborate on this.

25 Q. And what happened to the property left by the Muslims in their

Page 7912

1 abandoned flats?

2 A. Baja and some other people took this property away at night. We

3 were not allowed to go back to those districts, to those neighbourhoods

4 one day after the cleansing. But the second day, we could already pick

5 out a flat and start -- and become its owners.

6 Q. And what happened to the apartments that were abandoned?

7 A. Some of the flats had been taken by -- were taken by soldiers, by

8 members of Benko Penavic. Some, I think, remained empty, unused, and

9 vacated.

10 Q. You just told the Trial Chamber that some Muslims were taken to

11 Heliodrom, and some Muslims were forced to go across the confrontation

12 line. Could you just indicate on the map, the same map, the route you

13 personally took Muslim civilians across the confrontation line. If you

14 find it, maybe you'll draw a line.

15 A. You mean using the marker?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. I've just drawn two lines. This is the first one and this one is

18 the second. On the first one, I would like to explain it.

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. This is a street that went passed the church. And this one here

21 was right next to the front line which we manned.

22 Q. Perhaps you should put a number 6 on the first line and number 7

23 on the second line.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 7913

1 A. Not at all.

2 Q. Did you ever see any Muslims wounded or killed during those

3 cleansing operations?

4 A. Yes, this happened on several occasions. While they were being

5 driven to the other side, they were being shot, and after some were beaten

6 and there were -- occasionally we would see dead bodies of a person who

7 had been driven from the western part. I would like to add that the dead

8 bodies of people, after a few days, would turn dark in the sun, and they

9 would swell. So the prisoners from the Heliodrom would have to come in to

10 the open and pull those bodies away so that the stench would be removed.

11 JUDGE CLARK: There's some confusion going on up here, and perhaps

12 the President could address you on that. We're a little at sea about who

13 this witness is.

14 JUDGE LIU: Shall we go into the private session, please.


16 [Private session]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 7914












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Page 7915

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [Open session]

15 JUDGE CLARK: I think we owe it to everybody to say that we have

16 been looking at the wrong summary and that's why we were confused, and we

17 wondered had the names been reversed. We were looking in the wrong place.

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: We have witnesses with the same name.

19 JUDGE CLARK: I'm sorry, Witness, for interrupting. But Judge Liu

20 and I were wondering what had happened with your evidence, but we didn't

21 put two and two together and realise that there were two people with

22 exactly the same name giving different evidence. Sorry for interrupting

23 you.


25 Q. So, now, let's go to the confrontation line. I would like the

Page 7916

1 witness to be shown Exhibit Number 14.5. That's our traditional exhibit.

2 We use it in every session. You may leave -- the other exhibit you should

3 also leave on the witness desk.

4 Witness, I would like you to take a look at the map and this

5 picture. Are you able to show us the area of your unit's responsibility?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. First on the map.

8 A. It would be this part here, from the intersection up to this green

9 area.

10 Q. You may draw a line here indicating just the area of your

11 responsibilities.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Were there any other units on the confrontation line that were in

14 charge of some parts of the confrontation line?

15 A. Well, yes. There were certain units that were in charge for

16 certain sections of the front line. Let me show it to you right away. To

17 the left of us, there was Stela's unit. And from this point here to all

18 the way to Podhum was the 4th Battalion, which was also called Tihomir

19 Misic.

20 Q. All right. I just -- I would like you just to put Number 8 on the

21 line indicating your area of responsibility on the map.

22 A. I did it.

23 Q. Okay, thank you.

24 And you just told the Trial Chamber that some other part of the

25 confrontation line was run by Stela. Do you mean the same Stela you

Page 7917

1 mentioned in the beginning of your testimony?

2 A. That was Vinko Martinovic, Stela.

3 Q. Okay. And now I would like you to take the picture. Could you

4 show which buildings were occupied by your unit? In which buildings did

5 you keep your positions?

6 A. The position of my unit was exactly here.

7 Q. Okay. You may encircle it and put number "1."

8 A. This is an approximation. You cannot see exactly where the

9 buildings are, because now this is all overgrown.

10 Q. Okay. Thank you.

11 And what were your functions on the confrontation line?

12 A. I was one of those who was selected to do special tasks, either

13 during the attack or defence, during the conflict between the Muslims and

14 the Croats.

15 Q. What do you mean by "special tasks?"

16 A. Those special tasks were, if there was an action, to extend this

17 west side of Herceg-Bosna or also during major operations when the ABiH

18 was attacking, we were to be ready and prepared at any time to go wherever

19 it was necessary to go to help out.

20 Q. What other tasks were carried out by you on the confrontation

21 line, apart from your main task?

22 A. I went to the Heliodrom on several occasions and collected

23 prisoners, took them to Blato [phoen] where they were filling bags with

24 sand. And then took them to places where they had to build the

25 fortifications. I was at the front line on several occasions while they

Page 7918

1 were working, and I was guarding them.

2 Q. Who else was authorised to take prisoners from Heliodrom and take

3 them to the confrontation line?

4 A. There was Elvir Sadzak whom I spent some time guarding the

5 prisoners, and there was a man called Zubac.

6 Q. Did you ever go to the Heliodrom to pick up prisoners yourself?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you inform briefly the Trial Chamber how did the system

9 work. I mean the system of ordering prisoners and taking them and

10 returning them.

11 A. It wasn't anything much. It would be just a piece of paper signed

12 by Mario Milicevic Baja, and then we would go to the Heliodrom, and we

13 only had a number of prisoners on that piece of paper, so if indeed the

14 number was 30, then we needed to collect 30 prisoners. On the way back,

15 it was not important whether 30 or 25 would be brought back. They were

16 just Muslims.

17 Q. Did you normally return prisoners on the same day?

18 A. Usually on the same day, but sometimes we would keep them at the

19 base of Benko Penavic, the Rondo, we would keep them in the basement

20 because we would perhaps need them very early the next morning.

21 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the usher to show the witness

22 Exhibit Number 16.3.

23 Q. Do you recognise this picture, the building depicted here?

24 A. This is the building that was used as the base of Benko Penavic.

25 Q. And could you indicate on this picture where did you keep

Page 7919

1 prisoners for the night in case that they were kept on your base?

2 A. Yes, I could show it. It was in a basement of this building. You

3 can see windows, parts of the window here and there. This is where we

4 would spend -- they would spend days and nights. And it was there that

5 they would usually also be beaten.

6 Q. Yes, please, put number "1" indicating the basement where the

7 prisoners were kept.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. So what kind of job did prisoners perform on the confrontation

10 line? Did they work during the shooting?

11 A. They were working in different situations, at different times. It

12 was not important whether there was shooting going on, there was like

13 fierce fighting going on, the prisoners had to work. In fact, they were

14 sometimes exposed to the fire from the east side. In fact, on a number of

15 occasions, they were not allowed to hide -- take cover behind a tree or

16 some sandbags, but rather they had to step out into the open and continue

17 with their work.

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit

19 Number 774, P, of course.

20 Q. Did you ever see prisoners being wounded or killed?

21 A. Yes, I did. I would like to say that as far as woundings are

22 concerned, Mario Milicevic, Baja, was mostly involved with that. He was

23 rarely showing up because it was considered to be too dangerous.

24 Q. Yes. While the registrar is looking for the exhibit, just one

25 question about Baja again. Did he ever participate in cleansing

Page 7920












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7921

1 operations himself?

2 A. Yes, he participated. It was he to whom we needed to hand over

3 the keys to the apartments that we had vacated from Muslims, of Muslims.

4 In fact, on his own, he cleansed a village called Kozica. Based on

5 information I had, this he did on his own initiative, and according to the

6 same information, Tuta had saved that village for public relations

7 purposes so that the public would see that this was not done. But Baja

8 made a mistake and he cleansed it anyway on his own, and then he had to go

9 and report to Tuta about it.

10 I personally talked to Baja after he had spoken to Tuta, but

11 didn't ask him what had happened. And he said that he had received a

12 warning, and Tuta had told him that this was no longer to be done.

13 Whenever there was cleansing or any other decision, that it was he that

14 was to be asked first.

15 Q. Do you know if your commander, Mario Milicevic, was punished for

16 disobedience, or for his wrong initiative, I would say?

17 A. No, he was never punished.

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: What about the exhibit? It has my remarks here.

19 It bears my remarks. Maybe we have it in the binder. I suppose we have

20 it.

21 Oh, yes.

22 Q. And one question, one more question about Baja while the usher is

23 preparing the exhibit: And did ever Baja command on the confrontation

24 line while there were some military operations there?

25 A. Sorry, could you repeat the question again.

Page 7922

1 Q. Did ever Baja participate in the military operations on the

2 confrontation line, giving orders, to be present among his soldiers?

3 A. Very rarely.

4 Q. Now, Witness, I would like you to open this document. You may

5 look either B/C/S version or the English version. And just number 45 --

6 JUDGE CLARK: Can I interrupt you for a moment. Could you go back

7 about 20 lines when you posed a question. I heard something, and the

8 response was another thing, and it doesn't seem to make sense. It was in

9 relation to prisoners being wounded or killed when you asked -- and I

10 thought this witness said that Baja was not involved in that because he

11 was never there, but the transcript says the opposite. I wonder, would

12 you go back and look at that and clarify it, because it's a major

13 difference.


15 Q. Okay, Witness AC, you understand that there is some confusion.

16 Maybe you'll be able to clarify the situation. Just, was ever Mario

17 Milicevic involved in some actions on the confrontation line which

18 resulted in wounding or killing of some prisoners?

19 A. This is a clearer question. Yes, Baja did take part in some of

20 those actions but, as I said, very rarely. He took part in an action on

21 the Bulevar which was conducted in such a way that from the church, we

22 were to cross over to the building which was next to the police building,

23 and then move on to the Bulevar. The prisoners were exposed to the fire

24 and used as human shields. The prisoners were to come out into the open

25 in the street and put up certain sandbags which would protect that space

Page 7923

1 from certain buildings, from the Bulevar. So the prisoners had to cross

2 over and do this. However, a fire --

3 Q. Witness AC, slow down. Slow down. It's very important, and we

4 cannot skip your information.

5 A. I apologise.

6 Q. You may go ahead.

7 A. One of the prisoners escaped to the other side on that occasion,

8 while another one was hesitant. He didn't know what to do, whether to run

9 to the east or to go back. Most probably this prisoner would have gone

10 back but had no opportunity. Baja, however, resolved that by shooting him

11 dead right there.

12 Q. Was your unit the only one involved in that military operation?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Which units took part in it, units or unit?

15 A. In this operation, when this took place, or what?

16 Q. Which units took part in it?

17 A. On the scene, there was only our unit. But on our right flank,

18 the 4th Battalion was to also take part. And on our left flank, it was to

19 have been Stela and the others. They were to move the front line forward.

20 At least, that is the information that we received from Baja.

21 Q. Did you take part in this operation?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Did you see prisoners wounded or killed as a result of that

24 operation?

25 A. Yes, I saw that.

Page 7924

1 Q. Can't [sic] you tell us approximately when that operation took

2 place, if you can, of course.

3 A. No, I'm sorry, I wouldn't be able to tell you.

4 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Now, I would like usher -- just, let's finish

5 this part of his testimony relevant to this operation, just not to return

6 to it again, because really I planned to do it somewhere later. But it so

7 happened that the witness told the story on his own initiative, asked by

8 Judge Clark.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may continue to finish this part.

10 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes. Like the witness to be shown Exhibit

11 Number P14.3.

12 Q. Perhaps, Witness, you remember the part of the confrontation line

13 where that operation took place? Could you show it on the picture -- in

14 the picture.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Please, put it on the ELMO.

17 A. I would like to show you this area here. We were approximately

18 here, where this church is, and we were to cross over to this building

19 across the street. Because this whole side, this was east part, that is

20 under the control of the ABiH. We feared that fire could come from those

21 buildings. So the prisoners were supposed to place the sandbags across

22 the street so that we could cross over to Rado Polje, and from there on to

23 these buildings.

24 Q. Perhaps you could draw a line showing the location where the

25 prisoners were made to carry sandbags and make a sort of fortification.

Page 7925

1 A. That would be about here approximately.

2 Q. Put a number 1. And perhaps you will be able to show the medical

3 centre here in the picture.

4 A. I'm showing the medical centre right now.

5 Q. Who was in charge of the medical centre?

6 A. Vinko Martinovic, Stela, was in charge of the medical centre.

7 Q. Perhaps you could encircle the area of his responsibility as far

8 as you know it. Take a pencil and circle it and put number "2."

9 A. That would be it approximately. It would be this area here. I'm

10 not sure how far down it would extend to, but I am certain about this area

11 at the top.

12 Q. [Previous translation continued]...

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Okay. Thank you.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, our time is up. Sorry for the

16 delay.

17 JUDGE LIU: Witness, I'm afraid we have to keep you here for

18 another day. As I warned to other witnesses, please do not talk to

19 anybody about your testimony today, and do not let anybody talk to you

20 about it. Do you understand?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. The usher will show you out of

23 the room.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 [Witness stands down]

Page 7926

1 JUDGE LIU: Tomorrow morning, we'll sit in the morning session in

2 Courtroom III, which means we'll start at 9.00 in the morning. So we are

3 adjourned until 9.00 tomorrow morning.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

5 4.04 p.m., to be reconvened on

6 Tuesday, the 15th day of January, 2002,

7 at 9.00 a.m.