Page 8189
1 Friday, 18 January 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE CLARK: Ms. Thompson, will you call the case, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number
7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.
8 JUDGE CLARK: Gentlemen on both sides, there hasn't been a coup
9 d'etat. The President, unfortunately, has flu and is indisposed, and he
10 has asked me would I take over for today and possibly the next few days.
11 The rules permit the Chamber to continue to sit in the absence of any of
12 the Judges. Do any of you have a problem with that?
13 MR. SCOTT: Ms. President, no, we don't for the Prosecution. We
14 absolutely do not object. And do think in addition to the provision that
15 the Rule makes, I would ask that there be a clear acceptance by both
16 Defence teams as well.
17 JUDGE CLARK: I understand that the President will be able to read
18 the transcript, and he also will see the videorecording. But I'd just
19 like to know how you feel about the Court proceeding.
20 MR. MEEK: Madam President, we have no problems whatsoever, no
21 objections, and we're very happy. And we hope a speedy recovery for Judge
22 Liu. My colleague -- we're not happy that Judge Liu is gone. We don't
23 like to see him sick. We hope him a speedy recovery, but otherwise, no,
24 we have no --
25 JUDGE CLARK: You're happy to proceed. Thank you very much.
Page 8190
1 Mr. Seric and Mr. Par?
2 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Of
3 course, I have nothing against it. And we should all abide by the
4 Rule 15 bis. And indeed, it is only a matter of three days. Thank you so
5 much.
6 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. And --
7 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] I notice that also the ranks of the
8 Prosecution team and of the Defence team are somewhat slimmer than they
9 used to be during the week.
10 JUDGE CLARK: Can I just say one last thing about how I am to be
11 addressed. Whatever, madam or miss, but not Mrs.
12 Very good. Could we bring the witness in, please.
13 Mr. Scott, will you explain to Witness AD when she comes in, if
14 she notices, why there are only two Judges instead of three.
15 MR. SCOTT: Yes, I will, Your Honour. Thank you very much.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE CLARK: Witness AD, you're already sworn from yesterday.
18 Are your earphones comfortable? Are you hearing properly?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Scott, you may proceed.
21 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Madam President.
22 WITNESS: WITNESS AD [Resumed]
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 Examined by Mr. Scott: [Continued]
25 Q. Witness AD, first of all, good morning. I hope your evening was
Page 8191
1 as pleasant as possible in the circumstances.
2 I want to remind you, of course, of the protective measures. And
3 as we discussed yesterday, it is quite important for you to recall, and
4 also for me, not to use family names such as your husband's name and those
5 sorts of things that would tend to identify you or your family. Also, I
6 would like to explain to you that you have now seen that we only have two
7 Judges with us today, that Judge Liu is unavailable due to illness. And I
8 wanted to explain that to you. It has absolutely nothing to do, of
9 course, with your testimony. He simply has become ill. But under the
10 provisions and practices of the Tribunal, we are proceeding with two
11 Judges instead of three. All right. Thank you.
12 Witness AD, yesterday afternoon, just to bring us a bit up to
13 where we left off, you mentioned two things which will lead into my next
14 series of questions. One was the situation where your husband had
15 expressed fear that something would happen to him in connection with
16 Stela. In fact, he told you that he was afraid that Stela would kill
17 him. You then went on to tell us that your older son avoided arrest on
18 the 30th of June, 1993, because he was essentially hiding in the house of
19 his girlfriend, again, not mentioning her name. And you said that, if I'm
20 correct, and, of course the record will govern, that the girlfriend's
21 house was near Stela's headquarters.
22 Is everything I've said so far, is that accurate? You'll have to
23 give a verbal yes or no.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, what I want to have -- ask you next is: Did you know Stela?
Page 8192
1 When your husband made these references to you about this person Stela,
2 did you know that person, or prior to that time, or ever meet him?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And when you say that your older son's girlfriend's residence was
5 near Stela's headquarters, how did you know where or what Stela's
6 headquarters was?
7 A. We all knew that it was in that building in Kalemova Street, both
8 Stela and his soldiers.
9 Q. I would like, please, for the usher's assistance to show you
10 Exhibit P15.2, which, if it's available, I think safely can be put on the
11 ELMO without any disclosure issue.
12 You can see that now.
13 A. I see.
14 Q. Can you describe that location to us. I mean, as what -- what you
15 see on this photograph, what does that depict to you, if it does, if you
16 know that location?
17 A. This is the location that is at the intersection of Kalemova
18 Street. It was a building. I can say even that it was painted pink. And
19 that's where they had their base. It was that ATG, the anti-terrorist
20 group. On the facade of this building, there were large-size letters
21 "ATG" written.
22 Q. And of this particular ATG, did you know who or was there another
23 name, a common reference to the -- to this headquarters, this being the
24 headquarters of a particular soldier or officer?
25 A. I don't know. They called it "the ATG group," those who were
Page 8193
1 there. And I'm not aware of the building having had any particular name.
2 I only knew that Stela was in it.
3 Q. All right. Now, directing your attention -- and we can leave the
4 photo there, I think, for a moment. I want to direct your attention to
5 the 12th of July, 1993. After your husband had been arrested on
6 approximately the 10th of -- excuse me, I'm sorry, the 30th of June, did
7 you see your husband on the 12th of July?
8 A. Yes. Around 9.00, I was just passing by this building where
9 Stela's base was. And in the middle of the intersection, a truck stopped,
10 and there were prisoners in it. They took them out of the -- off the
11 truck and started lining them up against the building that was Stela's. I
12 did not expect to see my husband. I was looking at him as he was looking
13 at me. And they were all surrounded by armed soldiers. I passed by. I
14 did not dare turn around to look. And I went home. My older son was at
15 home, and I told him everything that I had seen. He said to me, "Mom,
16 Stela will kill father."
17 Q. Now, just to be -- while we have the photograph still on the
18 ELMO -- let me just double-check. Your testimony just now, when you saw
19 this group of prisoners and your husband on the 12th of July, it was in
20 connection with the building which is shown on Exhibit 15.2, the one
21 that's on the screen now?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you see or can you recall what your husband was wearing when
24 you saw him?
25 A. I can. He had a dark blue T-shirt and blue jeans, and he had one
Page 8194
1 eye - I don't know which eye was shot - and he had burgundy-coloured
2 moccasins.
3 Q. Now, later that day - and we're still on the 12th of July - did
4 you have occasion to go back to this building, this location, again?
5 A. Yes. I again went back to that building because I wanted to see
6 my husband. I was -- went behind a tree and saw him on his knees washing
7 a car. I did not dare call him, and he didn't see me. And I saw him --
8 that he was weak and frail. He probably had been beaten.
9 Q. Let me back up for one moment perhaps. Did you ever -- did anyone
10 else ever accompany you to this location before you saw your husband
11 washing -- I just wanted to be sure that I had -- washing a car? Had you
12 gone back to Stela's headquarters with somebody else before that?
13 A. On that day, the evening around 6.00, we went to Stela's
14 headquarters, my son's girlfriend and I. And we were thinking of bringing
15 some cigarettes and some change of clothes. There were some soldiers
16 there, and she recognised one of them. His nickname was Cica. We asked
17 him whether we could leave some things for him, and he said that we should
18 come at 9.00 in the evening. We did not because we did not dare go out in
19 the street.
20 Q. All right. Apart from this or in addition to this soldier Cica,
21 did you or your older son's girlfriend recognise any of the other soldiers
22 or know the name of any of the other soldiers you saw there?
23 A. I did not recognise anyone else. I was a little lost because it
24 was very hard for me to be standing in front of that building.
25 Q. All right. And you said that, if I heard you correctly, even
Page 8195
1 though you were invited to come back later that day with perhaps some
2 cigarettes or other items, ultimately, you decided for some reason not to
3 do that.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, can you just clarify, please. You've mentioned seeing your
6 husband washing a car or cars. Was that before you went back with your
7 older son's girlfriend? Was it before that, or was it after that?
8 A. Before that.
9 Q. All right. And can you tell us approximately from your vantage
10 point - and I think you testified you hid behind a tree - approximately
11 how far from your husband were you when you saw him washing the car?
12 A. It was approximately 20 metres.
13 Q. All right. Now, Witness, before continuing, I want to tell you
14 that I certainly do not want to cause you any unnecessary pain in bringing
15 back some of these events to you, and I'm sorry for that. But of course,
16 we need to hear -- it's very important that the Judges hear your
17 testimony.
18 MR. SCOTT: With the usher's assistance, I would like the witness
19 to be shown Exhibit P48. I'll ask that that not be placed on the ELMO for
20 obvious reasons. It should be in the binders if anyone else in the
21 courtroom wants to look at it, Binder 1, Exhibit P48.
22 Q. Witness AD, can you look at Exhibit P48 and, just for the record
23 say who that is, or was.
24 I'm sorry, if you need to collect yourself, please take a moment.
25 A. This is my husband.
Page 8196
1 Q. Witness, I'm going to pause for a moment, both for your benefit --
2 I know the Judges are looking for the exhibit.
3 And Witness AD, can you tell us, when you saw your husband on the
4 12th of July, 1993 washing the car at Stela's headquarters, is that the
5 last time you saw him alive?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Can you tell the Judges, please, did anyone else tell you later
8 that same day, or maybe tell you after that day, but that they had also
9 seen your husband that same day? Again, don't mention any names. But if
10 you recall anyone else telling you that they had also seen your husband on
11 the 12th of July, can you tell that to the Judges, please.
12 A. Yes. May I say the name of the person who told me this?
13 Q. If you don't think it will --
14 MR. SCOTT: Madam President, out of an abundance of caution, if we
15 can go to private session, please.
16 JUDGE CLARK: We'll go into private session.
17 [Private session]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 (redacted)
Page 8197
1 [redacted]
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3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE CLARK: Are we in open session now?
8 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.
9 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.
10 MR. SCOTT:
11 Q. About a week after seeing your husband on the 12th of July, you
12 brought your older son back to your home or he returned to your flat. Is
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, did your older son ever tell you about anyone coming to the
16 house -- and I'll be clear, both to you and for the benefit of the
17 courtroom. This is not something you heard but something your son told
18 you, if you recall. Did your older son ever tell you about someone coming
19 to the house around that time and giving you information about your
20 husband?
21 JUDGE CLARK: Yes, Mr. Seric.
22 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Madam President, this is -- this has
23 been now a series of leading questions since yesterday. I think that the
24 time has come for me to make an objection here. I have been patient
25 because this, indeed, is a victim that we have in front of us. But at
Page 8198
1 this point, I need to object because this is a third leading question in
2 sequence. And I would ask the Prosecutor to either rephrase his question
3 or approach it from another angle. This is -- this has been the third
4 consecutive question in which the Prosecutor has been giving evidence.
5 JUDGE CLARK: I wouldn't go quite that far, but there has been a
6 little bit of leading.
7 So Mr. Scott, I know it's difficult, but try, because Mr. Seric
8 has made quite a valid objection.
9 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Witness AD, if you can just tell us, do you recall anyone coming
11 to your flat around this time and giving any information about your
12 husband?
13 A. Yes. A soldier came around 11.00. I don't know exactly the
14 date. His name was Dinko. And he said that my husband was certainly
15 killed, that we should not go looking for him anywhere, and that's all he
16 said.
17 Q. All right. Now, I'm afraid I now must clarify something, because
18 we may have combined -- or jumped from one thing to the other. The time
19 when this Dinko came, were you present with your older son, or who
20 received this information from Dinko?
21 A. It was my older son who first got this information from Dinko. I
22 was not at home. When I came in, I saw a soldier leaning on a rifle. Of
23 course it wasn't easy for me, and I was scared. My son was sitting. And
24 I asked, "Who is this?" And he told me. And he said, "Ma'am, I came to
25 tell you that your husband has been killed."
Page 8199
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Page 8200
1 MR. SCOTT: I'm only going to -- Madam President, I'm only going
2 to ask very limited questions of this witness on the topic related to the
3 exhumation for reasons, I think, will become obvious.
4 Q. Witness AD, you were not involved or present, if I can approach it
5 this way, at the exhumation or autopsy concerning a body that was later
6 identified as your husband; is that correct? You were not involved -- or
7 present at that time?
8 A. [No audible response]
9 Q. Ma'am, you'll have to --
10 A. I wasn't. My elder son was present.
11 Q. Did your son ever -- your older son ever tell you about what he
12 had seen -- and again, forgive me. I don't want to cover anything
13 terribly unpleasant -- but how the body -- how he had identified the
14 body? Did he talk to you about that?
15 A. He didn't tell me much about it because it was very hard for him.
16 After some time, I asked him some questions, and all he told me was that
17 he had recognised a part of the jeans and the T-shirt and the belt -- the
18 buckle of the belt that he had round the jeans - I also still remember
19 what that buckle looks like - and also a part, a fragment of the red
20 moccasins, dark red moccasins, and that's all.
21 Q. Now, can you tell the Judges, at some point prior to that time and
22 to the unfortunate events involving your husband in the middle of July
23 1993, had your husband previously had a bullet wound to his leg?
24 A. That's right. Lower leg, I guess. Now, I'm not quite sure
25 whether he hurt himself or whether somebody else injured him. I'm really
Page 8201
1 not sure about that.
2 Q. All right. Can you tell the Judges, please, was your husband a
3 big man? Was he tall and strongly built? Or can you just describe him --
4 forgive me. Can you just describe your husband to the Judges, please, in
5 a physical way.
6 A. My husband was rather tall, rather big. He had black hair, but it
7 was already pepper and salt. And he was close to 2 metres tall, but I'm
8 not able to tell you exactly his height. He was a very big man, yes.
9 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry, Madam President, in deference to the
10 witness, I'm just trying to see what actually needs to be covered and
11 what's already been covered.
12 JUDGE CLARK: Perhaps, Mr. Scott, you might ask this witness if
13 she knows what size shoe her husband wore.
14 MR. SCOTT: Of course, Your Honour.
15 Q. Witness AD, are you familiar, do you recall the approximate shoe
16 size of your husband?
17 A. 46/47. That will be the size.
18 Q. Thank you very much.
19 Now, I want to take you ahead to the 9th of August, just to
20 finish -- and we're finishing your testimony now. What happened to you on
21 the 9th of August, 1993, you and your family?
22 A. Until the 9th of August, 1993, it was very difficult to live
23 there. We dared not go out. My sons and I were there together. And it
24 was Thursday. I believe it was the 7th or thereabouts. A uniformed man
25 turned up at our door around noon and asked me whose flat is it? Is it a
Page 8202
1 communal flat. And I said it wasn't. And then he asked me if we wanted
2 to leave that flat and go somewhere else. And I said no, we didn't. And
3 he just made -- moved his head, sort of nodded his head, and went down the
4 stairs saying nothing else. And we were staying in our flat for those two
5 or three days more.
6 And after 12.00, between -- I mean at midnight, between the 8th
7 and the 9th of August, somebody knocked at the door. And I asked, Who is
8 it? And somebody responded from behind the door. And I asked him what
9 did he want, without opening the door. And he said, Madam, open it.
10 We've had a report, and we need to ask you some questions, and we shall
11 come back immediately. I was very distraught because I had my two sons
12 there, but I had to open the door and there were three soldiers there.
13 They told us to get ready and come with them immediately. One of them was
14 Sasa Sanivovic and Memeti. And I do not remember who the third man was or
15 what he looked like.
16 As we were in our beds, we came out barefoot, barely dressed.
17 They put us in a car and took us in the direction of the cathedral. I was
18 terribly frightened. Then they turned towards Rondo. We took the Liska
19 Street. They took us behind the infirmary and near a tall building which
20 was across the street from the Health Centre. They made us get off the
21 car, and Sasa asked me, "Do you know who your husband was"?
22 Q. I'm sorry, I caution you there. You might be about to say
23 something in connection with your husband, which do I want to hear.
24 MR. SCOTT: Madam President, could we go into private session for
25 a moment, please.
Page 8203
1 JUDGE CLARK: Very good. We'll go into private session.
2 [Private session]
3 [redacted]
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22 [Open session]
23 MR. SCOTT: Yes.
24 Q. Witness AD, you've heard the exchange, I assume, between Judge
25 Clark and I in the last moment. Let's go back for a moment in open
Page 8204
1 session. After the comment about your husband, you began to tell the rest
2 of your story in terms of what happened next. If you can just start
3 again, you started telling us what happened. If you could just tell us
4 that again, please.
5 A. Nothing. We were there. He fired into the air. We started for
6 the street and then ran towards the demarcation line on the Bulevar. We
7 crossed that line and crossed over to the left bank of the Neretva.
8 Q. And can you tell us, Witness AD, did you ever live in the flat you
9 were evicted from around the early part of August 1993? Were you ever
10 able to return to live in that flat again?
11 A. No, I never returned there, and it has been eight years now. We
12 went there two months ago. We were allowed to go to our flat, but there
13 was a family living there, and they were -- they had to leave the flat.
14 Q. Very well. Witness AD, I thank you for your testimony. I'm sorry
15 if I've caused you to have to talk about some very difficult things.
16 Thank you very much.
17 MR. SCOTT: I have no further questions, Madam President.
18 JUDGE CLARK: Who's going to do the cross-examination now?
19 Mr. Seric.
20 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Seric:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, I am lawyer Branko Seric, and I am here
23 representing Vinko Martinovic. I'd like to shed some light on certain
24 matters, if possible. Could you please get the ELMO down so that I don't
25 have to play hide and seek with the witness.
Page 8205
1 Madam, during the direct examination, you affirmed that you last
2 saw your husband on the 12th of July, 1997; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Will you please make a pause after you hear my question, because
5 we speak the same language.
6 MR. SCOTT: Madam President, sorry. Bad habit. I think it's an
7 obvious error, I suppose, but so the record can be correct, it was just
8 said "1997," instead of "1993."
9 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's quite true.
10 Q. That day, you also told the Chamber, a neighbour said
11 sometime having seen your husband at Stela's around 6.00; is that
12 correct?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Could you tell us about that conversation with your neighbour.
15 A. It was no conversation really. He merely said that he had seen
16 him by Stela's building around 6.00.
17 Q. And did you tell that neighbour that you had seen your husband
18 that morning already?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. That day, you said that you had seen a man whose name, or rather,
21 nickname, I suppose, was Cica.
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. And what did he tell you exactly?
24 A. We stopped when we saw him, and he told us that he was in the
25 building, that he could not come out, and that we should come at 9.00 in
Page 8206
1 the evening to bring him cigarettes, a change of clothes, and whatever
2 else he might need.
3 Q. Did he tell you that your husband had been taken back to the
4 Heliodrom?
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. You said that your husband told you that once he was -- how he was
7 once riding a bicycle on his way home and that on his way, Vinko
8 Martinovic had told him, "Where are you, thief?"
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. When was it that you talked about it the first time?
11 A. You mean me and my husband?
12 Q. You.
13 A. I? Well, he came home and told me what had happened. He was very
14 upset and said that Stela had told him, "Where are you, thief?"
15 Q. Did you tell anyone about this prior to your yesterday's
16 testimony?
17 A. No, I did not.
18 Q. Did it ever occur to you to go to Vinko Martinovic and ask him
19 what had really happened?
20 A. No, never, because I dared not come near that building. And I
21 think that from these statements, you can see how difficult it was for us
22 Muslims during that time.
23 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please help me show
24 the witness P520 it's in binder 10.
25 Q. Don't, please, read it aloud, because there is some information
Page 8207
1 which we should not make public.
2 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Or perhaps we should go -- we could
3 into private session, Madam President? No, I cannot put it on the ELMO
4 either.
5 Perhaps it would be best if we went into private session.
6 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry, I was looking for the binder. Did you ask
7 for private session?
8 Yes, could we go into private session, then, please.
9 [Private session]
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9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE CLARK: We'll all meet again here at 5 past 11.00
11 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
13 JUDGE CLARK: For the benefit of the translators and the
14 stenographers, I thought it would be fair if we would take a short break
15 at ten past 12.00 for 15 minutes and then if we sat until ten past or
16 quarter past 1.00, and hopefully retrieve any lost time.
17 Does that suit everybody?
18 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.
19 JUDGE CLARK: Perhaps you could bring the witness in, and
20 meanwhile Judge Diarra and I will read this document.
21 Very good, Mr. Seric.
22 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. So do you have the document in front of you?
24 A. No.
25 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Can I please ask that the witness be
Page 8214
1 again handed the documents 520 and D2/14. Meanwhile, in order to speed up
2 my cross-examination, could you also prepare the P774 exhibit for me.
3 Q. Madam, were you able to find this special report?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. On page 2, under number 15 --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- do you see what is written there?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. Under "15," it says --
10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Are we in the private session? Can we
11 please go into the private session.
12 JUDGE CLARK: We'll go into the private session.
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15 [redacted]
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18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [Open session]
24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Madam, soldiers came to your apartment on three occasions. I
Page 8219
1 forgot when the last time. When was the last time?
2 A. On the 9th of August. And they were there before as well.
3 Q. Were they members of the military police?
4 A. Of the HVO, yes.
5 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
6 questions.
7 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Meek, do you have any questions?
8 MR. MEEK: Your Honours, we have no questions for this witness.
9 Thank you.
10 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr. Scott?
11 MR. SCOTT: Madam President, I believe only one question.
12 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:
13 Q. Witness, concerning the documents that you have been shown this
14 morning about the alleged escape of your husband, just to clarify for the
15 record in light of the exchanges that have taken place, do you know
16 anything -- do you have any information that would indicate that these
17 statements are based on anything more than the report made by someone in
18 Stela's unit to someone at the Heliodrom? Do you have any other
19 information at all about what these reports even are based on?
20 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that was not a question
21 in the cross-examination.
22 JUDGE CLARK: The suggestion that her husband had escaped and
23 there were reports to support it were the basis of your
24 cross-examination.
25 But the form of your question, Mr. Scott, is somewhat leading.
Page 8220
1 Perhaps you could break the question up into a series of shorter
2 questions.
3 MR. SCOTT: Very well, Madam President.
4 Q. Witness, if you recall the documents that have been put in front
5 of you in the last few moments or actually sometime -- and I'm sorry about
6 any confusion about that. But in terms of anything in connection with the
7 alleged escape of your husband, first of all, had you seen any of those
8 documents before today?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Are you aware of any of the information, if any, on which those
11 documents are based?
12 A. I don't understand the question.
13 Q. Well, are you aware of any information that would have been the
14 basis for what is asserted in these documents, that your husband had
15 escaped? Are you personally aware of any information that would support
16 that allegation or assertion?
17 A. Perhaps I have not said this before, but while he was already at
18 the Heliodrom, a person came. His name was Novica. He worked at the
19 Heliodrom as a cook and had been arrested previously by the Serbs even.
20 He came to our house and gave us the information [redacted]--
21 [redacted]. Thirty
22 of them had been taken to perform labour. He was the thirtieth who did
23 not come back. And we were -- and the word was that he had been shot and
24 killed by a sniper.
25 MR. SCOTT: Madam President, there was the one reference,
Page 8221
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Page 8222
1 obviously, that will have to be redacted.
2 No further questions.
3 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.
4 Judge Diarra, do you have any questions?
5 Questioned by the Court:
6 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Clark. The
7 answers given by the witness were so clear that I have only a few
8 questions to put to her.
9 Witness AD, you told us how you had been expelled from your flat.
10 Could you help me by telling me whether or not you had the opportunity and
11 whether your two sons had the opportunity to get their things back. Were
12 you given that possibility?
13 A. Nothing. We left barefoot. It was summertime. It was the month
14 of August. We left without anything. We were not allowed to take any
15 possessions. Even the medication that I had, the medicines that I had
16 picked up, they made me throw away. So I had nothing with me when we
17 crossed to the other side.
18 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness AD. I would
19 like to congratulate you on your calm and your great serenity. You have
20 been quite composed during your testimony and this in spite of the grave
21 events that you have been through. Thank you very much. And all the best
22 for the future.
23 A. Thank you.
24 JUDGE CLARK: Madam Witness, I have a question to ask you. During
25 the period that your husband was in detention at the Heliodrom and before
Page 8223
1 your expulsion to the east side, did you ever receive any official
2 notification about the whereabouts or the fate of your husband from the
3 HVO authorities?
4 A. We never received any official notification. The only information
5 was from Dinko, who was in Stela's base, and from Novica, who was at the
6 Heliodrom, that he was confirmed dead. But we did not receive anything
7 official.
8 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you very much. And I join with Judge Diarra
9 in wishing you the best for the future.
10 A. Thank you.
11 JUDGE CLARK: Could we take the witness out.
12 And again, thank you for giving your evidence to the Tribunal.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Scott, who is your next witness?
15 MR. SCOTT: Madam President, Mr. Stringer will be handling the
16 next witness. It will be a protected witness, and I'm sure he'll want to
17 deal with that in private session, please.
18 JUDGE CLARK: Yes. I'm afraid I'm losing count of whether we're
19 in private session or not. But if we're not in private session, we should
20 go into private session.
21 [Private session]
22 [redacted]
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25 [redacted]
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15 [Closed session]
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Page 8226
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5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: This message is for the people sitting in the
7 public gallery. We will now be going into closed session, which means you
8 will not be able to see nor hear the proceedings. This will probably take
9 place for the duration of the time. Thank you.
10 JUDGE CLARK: Will we now go back into closed session. I think
11 you all realise that I was never very good at high tech.
12 [Closed session]
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20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.11 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day of January,
22 2002, at 2.15 p.m.
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