Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12031

1 Friday, 31 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Could we have the witness, please?

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, while we are waiting

10 for the witness, good afternoon, shall we hear your decision about the

11 question that we asked yesterday about a break?

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, as I said yesterday, this Trial

13 Chamber is deliberating the motions you filed just now. And this morning,

14 we received the response from the Prosecution. We haven't had enough time

15 to consider it yet. I believe that after the last witness, we'll make the

16 proper decisions at that time.

17 MR. KRSNIK: Thank you, Your Honours.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness. Would you please sit down?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

21 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to proceed?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

Page 12032

1 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, if we could go to private session just

2 for a couple more minutes, hopefully while finish my questions in private

3 session.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

5 [Private session]

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12 Pages 12033-12036 redacted private session














Page 12037

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19 [Open session]


21 Q. And do you know who was the commander of the Convicts

22 Battalion in 1994?

23 A. I think it was Ivan Andabak.

24 Q. Were you ever present at the headquarters of the Convicts

25 Battalion in Siroki Brijeg?

Page 12038

1 A. We had our defence office, which was near the Convicts Battalion

2 office.

3 Q. Again, sir, because of the time, I'm going to ask you to please

4 listen to my question and be very specific. Were you ever in the

5 headquarters offices of the Convicts Battalion in Siroki Brijeg?

6 A. I was -- I was in the headquarters of the Convicts Battalion in

7 Siroki Brijeg, visiting it together with my defence office.

8 Q. And how many times were you in this headquarters?

9 A. Not often. I cannot give you the exact number of times.

10 Q. Twice, three times? When you say not very often, is that what you

11 mean?

12 A. I would guess so. Not often, two, three, four times.

13 Q. I want to be very clear, sir. I'm not asking, and in the

14 interests of time I'm not going to try to pull out the photograph, I'm not

15 talking about your being in the building, the house that is in the front

16 part, if you will, of the tobacco factory. I'm not asking you how many

17 times you were in that building. I'm asking you how many times you were

18 in the headquarters, the actual offices dedicated to the Convicts

19 Battalion. Now, do you understand that and is your answer then the same

20 or different?

21 A. I do not understand where is the headquarters, where is the

22 command of the Convicts Battalion, according to you?

23 Q. Well, do you know where the Convicts Battalion headquarters was,

24 sir?

25 A. The office of the Convicts Battalion, I pointed at it yesterday.

Page 12039

1 If you give me the photograph again, I will show you exactly where that

2 office was.

3 Q. We have established we both know where it was, sir. With that

4 additional foundation, were you in that office ever in 1993, that office,

5 not the building?

6 A. It wasn't my business to visit either the headquarters or

7 anything, because we had the Defence office, which communicated with those

8 people.

9 Q. Sir --

10 A. And I --

11 Q. Did you ever attend any meetings or briefings of the commanders of

12 the Convicts Battalion?

13 A. I was never present, nor did it fall within my terms of reference,

14 nor was that my duty. Because I -- I'm not familiar with the military

15 affairs.

16 Q. I take it from your answer, sir, that the answer would be the same

17 to the question: Were you ever present or involved in any meetings at the

18 HVO Main Staff in Mostar? Did you ever attend any of those meetings?

19 A. That was not my duty. It was done by people who were responsible

20 for that.

21 Q. Well, sir, you weren't --

22 A. This is a military -- the military structure of the HVO.

23 Q. So are you telling the Judges, sir, that as to military matters of

24 the HVO, you do not have any knowledge of that?

25 A. My part of the job, I repeat again, [redacted]

Page 12040

1 [redacted] means that I

2 never had any say in the matters relative to the other component. Those

3 were military matters. And I do not know anything about them.

4 Q. You said there was a special purpose unit that was part of the

5 Convicts Battalion, if I heard you correctly. What was the name of that

6 unit?

7 A. The Convicts Battalion was the unit for special purposes, i.e.

8 the unit for interventions, and I don't know, I'm not familiar with the

9 structure of the units of the Convicts Battalion.

10 Q. All right. So when you told us yesterday, and it may have been

11 my -- I didn't hear you correctly, sir, when you talked about a special

12 purpose unit, you were talking about the entire Convicts Battalion; is

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know who was in charge of the civilian police or what might

16 be called the MUP in Siroki Brijeg in 1993?

17 A. The MUP in Siroki Brijeg, and in all the neighbouring towns, were

18 part of the structure of the MUP of Herzegovina in Mostar.

19 Q. Yes. I understand that, sir, but there must have been a local,

20 who was the local leader or commander or officer in Siroki Brijeg?

21 A. Of course, I told you yesterday, when I read to you the names of

22 all the members of the HVO, and I also read the name of the gentleman who

23 was in charge of that. His name was Danko Bilinovac. I know his name

24 because we cooperated. And again because he is a -- my neighbour.

25 Q. And can you tell us who was in charge of the military police in

Page 12041

1 Siroki Brijeg?

2 A. That I couldn't tell you because the military police was not under

3 the jurisdiction of the civilian authorities in Siroki Brijeg.

4 Q. And who was the head of the Home Guard in Siroki Brijeg in 1993?

5 A. They had, as far as I can remember, several battalions. I think

6 that there were three battalions, and their commanders changed quite

7 often. As far as I can remember, after Mr. Cavar, Mr. Cavar was succeeded

8 by Mr. Sasko. Unfortunately he is no longer amongst the living, as far

9 as I know.

10 Q. All right, now, sir, can you tell us, in terms of any Muslim men

11 who were prisoners, detainees or prisoners in Siroki Brijeg in 1993, who

12 or what organisation in Siroki Brijeg had custody and care of those

13 prisoners?

14 A. These detainees were brought by the military police, since they

15 didn't have enough room to accommodate these people, they asked the

16 Defence Department whether they could help them with the accommodation of

17 those people, and then they accommodated them in the premises of the

18 civilian police. And that is -- they gave them the custody over these

19 detainees. Since the civilian police took over the care of these

20 detainees, I don't know why, for what reason, I suppose they were either

21 there for interrogation or they were waiting for exchanged. We as the

22 civilian part of the HVO were -- had a duty to look after these people,

23 and this is what we did. I was informed --

24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... going to go on because again

25 our time is limited.

Page 12042

1 MR. SCOTT: Can the usher please assist me in showing the witness

2 Exhibits P665 and 697?

3 Q. Sir, I want to direct your attention first of all to 665 and of

4 course you can look at the Croatian language version. Sir, this is a

5 communication dated the 10th of November, 1993, from Bruno Stojic, the

6 Minister of Defence, titled or addressed to, to the commander of the

7 Convicts Battalion, Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, personally. Do you see that?

8 A. No. I can't see that.

9 Q. Perhaps the usher can assist you. 665. That's it. Sir, is it

10 not addressed in the right side of the page in the Croatian version, is it

11 not addressed to, does it not say, "To the commander of the Convicts

12 Battalion, Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, personally"?

13 A. I can see that.

14 Q. Would you please look at Exhibit P697? Sir, this is a

15 communication dated the 26th of November, 1993, from a Colonel Marijan

16 Biskic who was the head of the security sector of the HVO Main Staff, and

17 does he not also address this to, "HVO, Convicts Battalion, personally,

18 commander, Mr. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta"? Do you see that?

19 A. As far as I can see it, yes, that is correct, but I don't know

20 what -- how could I comment this, as the President of the HVO?

21 Q. Sir, are you telling these Judges -- are you telling the Judges

22 under oath that the Minister of Defence, Bruno Stojic, and the head of the

23 HVO Main Staff for the security sector, Marijan Biskic they didn't know

24 who the commander of the Convicts Battalion was?

25 A. They should know who the commander of the Convicts Battalion was.

Page 12043

1 That is why I'm surprised to find the name of Mr. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta,

2 here.

3 Q. You'd agree with me, sir, wouldn't you and you just said this it a

4 few minutes ago, the Minister of Defence and the head of the security

5 sector know more about HVO military matters than you do, correct?

6 A. They must do, because I simply don't know anything.

7 MR. SCOTT: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit P578?

8 Q. Sir, this is a communication from, again, Bruno Stojic dated the

9 26th of August, 1993, and under the name that are listed, I'll come back

10 to the names in a moment, Mr. Stojic says, "All the above named persons

11 employed in the court and the prosecutor's Office, which will be unable

12 to carry on their duties without them." Now in the Croatian version, do

13 you see, to the left of those names, there is a bracket or whatever --

14 bracket or parenthesis, on the left side of those list of seven names with

15 a handwritten notation, "These men, Tuta"? Do you see that?

16 A. I can't see that.

17 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Usher, perhaps you can assist the witness,

18 please.

19 Q. Do you see the handwritten part, sir, in the Croatian version to

20 the left of the seven names, a word that appears to be "Tuta" with two

21 words that appear to be above that? Do you see that, please?

22 A. Yes, but anybody could write "Tuta."

23 Q. Well, sir, look down at the bottom left-hand part of the page.

24 Does it not say in Croatian, "Colonel Cavar, please urgently exempt these

25 men so that the civilian authorities can function. Tuta"? Do you see

Page 12044

1 that?

2 A. I can see that but I don't know whether this is Mr. Tuta's

3 signature.

4 Q. Have you ever seen his signature?

5 A. This could have been signed by anybody.

6 Q. Have you ever seen Mr. Tuta's signature?

7 A. Even if I'd seen it, I did see it, but I have, in the meantime,

8 forgotten how Mr. Tuta signs his name. This was a long time ago so it's

9 very difficult for me to tell by just looking at this who this is. It

10 could have been anybody from any unit or from anywhere. Anybody could

11 have signed Tuta's name. It happened very often. And if you will allow

12 me just a second, Mr. Prosecutor, I would like to tell you that, because

13 of a number of instances of abuse, because of the things that were

14 happening, we had to restore order because people abused the situation

15 which was not normal. Everybody wanted to take the opportunity of gaining

16 something for themselves. And very often it would happen that somebody

17 would sign a document on behalf of somebody else.

18 Q. Thank you for that. I appreciate -- you can't say whether it's

19 Tuta's signature or not, all right? So because of the time we will go

20 on. Sir --

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I kept quiet. I did not want to put

22 any objections so far. Can I just draw your attention to the Croatian

23 original? I don't know whether you have it in front of you. All my

24 objections so far, when a minister writes to anybody, I doubt that he

25 would send a piece of document without a stamp. A lot of things were

Page 12045

1 written, added by hand, without any official -- excuse me, I'm here

2 raising an objection.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, you could raise the objection but you could not

4 indicate any answer to this question. And if you have some objections,

5 you have the full opportunity to do it when this document is tendered.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, on the original,

7 there is no signature. All it says, all we can see, is TU. And again, in

8 the English translation, it gives the full name. So things have to be

9 represented correctly. That's all I'm saying.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, at my hand, I don't have those

11 documents at this moment. I don't know the status of this document. But

12 I was reminded by Madam Registrar that it has been admitted already into

13 the evidence. So I think this matter is over. You may proceed,

14 Mr. Scott.

15 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Sir, I'm not sure if I heard you correctly yesterday in connection

17 with Mr. Martin Garrod, Sir Martin Garrod or not. Are you telling the

18 Judges that there was never a meeting involving you, Mr. Naletilic and

19 Mr. Garrod? Are you saying that there absolutely was never a meeting or

20 are you telling the Chamber that you just don't remember one way or the

21 other?

22 A. Mr. Naletilic, Tuta, and Mr. Martin Garrod came to my place in

23 Siroki Brijeg very often, and I will allow for the possibility that they

24 did meet in Siroki Brijeg, but those were private visits which -- in which

25 they talked about private matters, which are not binding. So I do not

Page 12046

1 exclude the possibility --

2 Q. All right. So we agree that it's very possible or likely that, as

3 you said, Mr. Naletilic and Mr. Garrod met in Siroki Brijeg, correct?

4 A. There is a possibility, but they -- they were never together in

5 a -- in my house, but somewhere else, they may have met, I don't exclude

6 that possibility but I can't assert anything about that.

7 Q. Well, sir, you just said, I don't want to get bogged down by this

8 too much but you just said a moment ago in line 23, you said,

9 "Mr. Naletilic, Tuta, and Mr. Martin Garrod came to my place in

10 Siroki Brijeg very often." Now, which is it? Did they come to your house

11 or not?

12 A. They did come to my house, but not together. Again, I repeat,

13 there is a possibility that they saw each other when they were at my

14 house, but never when I was there, because I wasn't there all the time.

15 Mr. Garrod was my friend and he could come to my house any time of the day

16 or night. Mr. Mladen Naletilic also is my friend. He did not have to

17 announce his visit when he decided to visit me on a private matter.

18 Q. Well, sir, when you talk about having a private conversation, and

19 a private conversation not being binding, are you telling us that it

20 matters to you what you say, whether you think you're having a private

21 conversation or some other kind of conversation?

22 A. I would always draw a line between a friendly chat and an official

23 position of these same people when they talk about official things in the

24 official part of that same conversation. I would draw a line between the

25 two. Mr. Martin Garrod is a very nice, elderly gentleman, and he came --

Page 12047

1 we all liked him because he would very often offer his advice, his

2 experience, in order to --

3 Q. Sir, I'm going to move on because time is limited?

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Prosecutor has

5 already overstepped his ten minutes but I did not want to react, so he

6 is -- has gone longer than my direct examination, and I think that it was

7 agreed a long time ago that cross should not -- the time for the cross

8 should not exceed the time for the direct examination. And I have two

9 other witnesses that I would like to finish today. The weekend is coming,

10 and I have another gentleman who has some health problems. We have two

11 more witnesses today, don't we?

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I quite understand that. And the -- I believe

13 that the Prosecution is approaching to its end of the cross-examination.

14 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, I would appreciate some more time

15 with this witness. [redacted] . And the

16 Chamber knows who he is, and he is claimed to be a very close friend of

17 the accused and I would appreciate a few more minutes to ask him some

18 questions.

19 Q. Sir, in terms of the conversations that you have, in terms of your

20 telling the truth, does it matter to you whether you're in a private

21 conversation or some other type of conversation?

22 A. I would kindly ask you, Mr. Prosecutor, to repeat this question.

23 I didn't quite understand it.

24 Q. Well, sir, do you tell the truth whether you're in a private

25 conversation or public conversation? Or does your truth telling depend on

Page 12048

1 the nature of the conversation?

2 A. Mr. Prosecutor, it depends on who I'm talking to.

3 Q. Well, sir, did you tell the truth to Martin Garrod or were you

4 lying to Martin Garrod when you had conversations with him?

5 A. I would never lie to Sir Garrod because there is no need to lie to

6 him.

7 Q. Sir, isn't it true that a number of the Muslim refugees that came

8 to Siroki Brijeg were later put on buses and taken to Croatia?

9 A. It is possible, since Siroki Brijeg had a limited accommodation

10 capacity, and a large number of refugees who were passing through Siroki

11 Brijeg were taken by buses. I think to Croatia. I can't tell you exactly

12 where in Croatia but I think it was somewhere in the southern part of

13 Croatia, somewhere around Makarska.

14 Q. And these were Muslim refugees, weren't they?

15 A. It is possible that they were Muslim refugees, and not only

16 Muslims, there were also Croatian refugees there.

17 Q. Sir, why weren't the Muslims allowed to go back to the parts of

18 Bosnia that were controlled by the Muslim armed forces?

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can we have the foundation for this

21 allegation?

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's a natural question, because those Muslims

23 were bussed to Croatia so the next question will be the one the Prosecutor

24 is asking.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is just an

Page 12049

1 allegation.

2 MR. SCOTT: He admitted, he stated it, Your Honour. He answered

3 the question.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, it all depends on how the witness is going to

5 answer this question.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please repeat your

7 question?


9 Q. Yes, sir. Why weren't the Muslims allowed to go back to the parts

10 of Bosnia under the Muslim armed forces control?

11 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know how familiar you are with the

12 location of Siroki Brijeg. Siroki Brijeg is away from any roads that go

13 to Bosnia. If you go through Siroki Brijeg, you end up in Croatia. And

14 the people who sent these people to Siroki Brijeg, I believe that it is

15 logical that they meant Croatia to be their final destination because

16 Siroki Brijeg is on the way to Croatia.

17 Q. Sir, you're just assuming, you're now assuming that the Muslims,

18 who for whatever reason appeared in Siroki Brijeg as refugees, you assume

19 that they wanted to go on to Croatia. And that's why they were put on

20 buses and take to Croatia. Is that what you're telling us?

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Prosecutor does not

22 have any foundation. He does not have any evidence. These are his

23 speculations. He doesn't know whether the refugees wanted to go through

24 Croatia or not, whether they wanted to go back to the area controlled by

25 the BH Army. He doesn't know that. He just speculates.

Page 12050

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I don't think it's speculation in

2 this instance. I think it's a natural question to ask this question.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Where is the evidence for this

4 allegations about where they wanted to go? Has he shown us any piece of

5 evidence, any piece of document, showing us that the refugees did not end

6 up where they wanted to end up? He can not assume where the refugees

7 wanted to go or end up at. This was the wartime. I apologise, Your

8 Honours, but these are nothing but speculations.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think during the wartime, everybody wants to

10 go back to his home town or to a safer place. We'll hear what the witness

11 is going to tell us. Yes, Mr. Scott.

12 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, he already -- the witness answered the

13 question and it was the witness, not the Prosecutor who assumed, he said,

14 "well, I assume they wanted to go to Croatia." And I believe the

15 transcript will show that. And I simply followed up on that statement but

16 I'm finished that line of questions.

17 Q. Sir, I'd like the usher to show you Exhibit D1/345. I'm trying,

18 Mr. President, to move as quickly as I can.

19 Sir, this decision makes reference to a decree on the rights and

20 commitments of citizens temporarily employed abroad. Now, decree. Is

21 that something that was like a law that was decided by the government of

22 Herceg-Bosna?

23 A. This decision was passed by the HVO of Siroki Brijeg, and it was

24 only binding on -- for the citizens of Siroki Brijeg.

25 Q. Yes, sir, but in the decision itself, it refers to a decree that

Page 12051

1 apparently was published in the Narodni List, the Official Gazette of the

2 Croatian Community Herceg-Bosna and the decree itself, is that something

3 to your understanding that had the force of law as something enacted by

4 the government of Herceg-Bosna?

5 A. As far as I can read it, Your Honours, it says, "Pursuant to

6 Article 4 of the statutory decision of the municipal executive authority

7 and the municipal administration, and this was adopted in January, 1992.

8 That is --

9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I didn't know it would be that

10 difficult a question for the witness, and I'll move on.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm really worried now

12 because I see that the Prosecutor has no intention, nor did he reorganise

13 his questions, but he knew how much time he had at his disposal. This has

14 been going on for 1 hour 15 minutes I need to begin with a third witness

15 and I can not leave him like that. This is not nice. You interrupted me

16 in my cross-examination if it was longer than allowed. The Prosecutor had

17 time to prepare himself since yesterday. And ask concise questions but he

18 has no intention of bringing to a close his cross-examination, and I think

19 that the same rules that apply to me should apply to the Prosecutor in

20 cross-examination.

21 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, you have to wind up your cross-examination

22 as soon as possible.

23 MR. SCOTT: I will, Your Honour. I object to characterisations

24 about my intentions because I'm sure that Mr. Krsnik has no idea about my

25 intentions.

Page 12052

1 Q. Sir?

2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Usher can you please show the witness Exhibit

3 number P929? Mr. President, after this document, I will seek to put -- I

4 will -- I have four other documents but I will seek to put a series of

5 shorter questions to the witness and try not to use the documents and I'll

6 to finish as soon as possible. P929. It should have been in the bundle

7 that was put out yesterday.

8 Q. Sir, isn't it true that during 1993, there were -- the Croatian

9 Army, and by that I mean the Republic of Croatia army, what's sometimes

10 called the HV, and the MUP of the Republic of Croatia was present in

11 Siroki Brijeg? And I direct your attention, sir, if it will assist you to

12 point 6 of Exhibit P929. It says --

13 A. I never saw this document before. Do I have time to read it?

14 Q. Only if the Chamber will allow it, sir.

15 A. I don't know what it is about. I do not know what this is about.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, the Prosecutor was asking you a

17 question, that is whether the HV army were present in the Siroki Brijeg?

18 And he also draw your attention to the paragraph 6 of that document. You

19 could read that paragraph and answer that question.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I claim

21 under full responsibility, Your Honours, that the Croatian Army was never

22 in the territory of Siroki Brijeg. I do not know what this is about.

23 I've never seen this document before.


25 Q. Sir, just for the record because we have to move on. I'm showing

Page 12053

1 you this exhibit to give you a chance to respond to it and I put it to

2 you that in this report to Mr. Minister, prepared by you and Mr. Saskor

3 who you named earlier in your testimony as one of the local Home Guard

4 commanders that you reported currently Siroki Brijeg has more than 6.000

5 armed soldiers including the Croatian Army and the MUP of the Republic of

6 Croatia. That's true, isn't it?

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, where is this leading

9 to? One can see with the naked eye that this was never signed so how can

10 the Prosecutor allege that this is signed?

11 MR. SCOTT: I didn't say it was signed.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, this is a document showed by the

13 Prosecutor, and this document has some basis because the names were put at

14 the end of the document. So I think it's legitimate for the Prosecution

15 to ask the question along this line. And your witness has the full right

16 to answer that question, which will help us to understand the situation.

17 There is no need for intervention on your part.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness has said it

19 twice that this was the first time that he's seen this document and they

20 want him to react and then it is alleged that he signed it. And it is

21 quite clear that he didn't.

22 JUDGE LIU: We have noticed that. We'll hear what the witness is

23 going to tell us.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, under full

25 responsibility, I say that before you, that the civilian authority has

Page 12054

1 never asked anything, the civilian authority had never any applications or

2 anything to submit to the military authority if we, the civilian

3 authority, had some requests, then it was done by us, the civilian

4 authority. The civilian authority and the military authority did not

5 function together.


7 Q. Sir, are you familiar with -- isn't -- excuse me. Isn't it true,

8 sir, that the members of the Convicts Battalion Siroki Brijeg were

9 notorious law breakers in the community?

10 A. That is not true. Laws were violated all over. It wasn't only a

11 specific feature of the Convicts Battalion. There were individual

12 incidents on all sides. And that includes the Convicts Battalion. But it

13 wasn't a rule that applied to the Convicts Battalion alone.

14 Q. Sir, do you remember Miroslav Kolobara, Drazenko Farac, being

15 charged with attempted murder on the 17th of November, 1993, in Siroki

16 Brijeg?

17 A. I do not know the individuals.

18 Q. Do you remember --

19 A. I do not know the individual under that name, that person does not

20 come from Siroki Brijeg.

21 Q. Do you remember Dalibor Kozul, Krsto Vukoje and Vinko Topic, all

22 soldiers of the Convicts Battalion, being charged with rape on the 8th of

23 November, 1993, in Siroki Brijeg?

24 A. I do not know those people.

25 Q. Well, certainly, you remember the incident, do not you, sir? Was

Page 12055

1 rape that -- so common no November, 1993, in Siroki Brijeg, that you

2 wouldn't remember a woman being raped?

3 A. I have never heard of any rape in Siroki Brijeg.

4 Q. Sir, you told us -- during, you told us during your direct

5 examination that you knew virtually everything that happened in Siroki

6 Brijeg. You even knew if anyone carried out forced labour or not. You

7 told us that could never have happened, didn't you?

8 A. Forced labour or rather people who came to Siroki Brijeg, they

9 became part of Siroki Brijeg, and I had to take care of those people.

10 Individual rapes? They were not --

11 Q. Sir, wasn't this woman part of Siroki Brijeg and wouldn't this be

12 a terrible crime that you don't seem to know about? And yet you claim to

13 know about everything else. Is that right, sir?

14 A. It is a horrible crime, I think, but believe me, Your Honours,

15 that I never heard about that happening in the territory of Siroki

16 Brijeg.

17 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I don't have time, as the Chamber

18 knows, but I refer just so the Chamber knows, I base this question on

19 Exhibit P680 which is a report by the military police.

20 Q. This is my final questions, Mr. President and I appreciate the

21 Court's patience.

22 Q. Isn't it true, sir, that there are many things that Mr. Mladen

23 Naletilic, Tuta, was involved in that you simply don't know one way or the

24 other, correct?

25 A. Could you please phrase it in a clearer way?

Page 12056

1 Q. Well, I'll give you more specifics, sir. You really don't have

2 any knowledge of anything that Mr. Naletilic might have done, for instance

3 at the Heliodrom or in the city of Mostar, do you?

4 A. I do not have any knowledge whether Mr. Mladen Naletilic was ever

5 at the Heliodrom or in Mostar.

6 Q. And you don't have any knowledge of anything that Mr. Naletilic

7 did or might have done in Sovici Doljani in April of 1993, do you?

8 A. You mean -- you mean the appeal of 1993? [redacted],

9 [redacted], as you can see from the documents I got there

10 on the 9th of July, 1993, and about that, I have no knowledge whether

11 Mr. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, or anyone else from the Convicts Battalion was

12 in Sovici, that is I don't know what other place was at the time.

13 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. I have no further

14 questions.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, do you have any re-examination?

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I cannot even -- I

17 wanted to because I have to finish two witnesses. I wanted to be known

18 that for an hour and 35 minutes, was the duration of the

19 cross-examination, and the direct examination lasted -- took 45 minutes.

20 I now simply have no more time to even ask anything in my redirect, nor do

21 I want to ask him anything. I want to move on to other witnesses because

22 we can not keep them for another week.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I don't think it's realistic to

24 finish two witnesses today, today. I think at least one witness will have

25 to be dealt with next week. We will try our best to finish one more

Page 12057

1 witness today, but I'm not quite sure whether we could finish with two. I

2 quite agree with you that the cross-examination took longer time than

3 yours, which is not proper and it should be not allowed to happen again,

4 but if you want to re-examine this witness, you ever the full rights to do

5 so. We will break until the second session this afternoon.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, very briefly, now, I

7 won't have any additional questions because I prepared my witnesses for

8 half hours, and I also modified my questions so that my direct examination

9 of both these two witnesses would not take longer than 45 minutes and I'm

10 quite sure that we can do it today. I shall be asking only specific

11 questions and will seek their specific answers because they are witnesses

12 to facts.

13 JUDGE LIU: But it's time for a break. We'll break first. Yes.

14 We'll resume at 4.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe it necessary

19 to address you, when I left the courtroom after the break I do not think I

20 behaved correctly towards you, and there is no reason for that. I'm a

21 professional, and if I offended you in any way, please forgive me. I

22 apologise and I promise it will never happen again. I believe I

23 interrupted you, Mr. President, as you were speaking, and please receive

24 my apologies for that.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, your apology is accepted. And I just want to

Page 12058

1 emphasise that whenever a Judge is speaking, there should be no

2 interruptions at all. You may sit down, please. Could we have the

3 witness, please?

4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just a moment, before the

5 witness comes back, I'd like to object on behalf of my Defence on the

6 manner in which documents are presented during the cross-examination. I

7 believe that it was in violation of the decisions taken by the Chamber

8 earlier, on various occasions Mr. President, you said this was a document

9 which has not been authorised, which has not been authenticated, that is a

10 document maybe shown the witness and if the witness says that the -- he

11 does not know the document, to then stop using this document, that such a

12 document may not be used again. That is at least how I understood the

13 position of the Chamber regarding the presentation of these documents.

14 Secondly, a rule which we take to be the Chamber's position is

15 that a document should not be read because it was said that the documents

16 speak for themselves. Today, we were in a situation to see that some

17 documents are produced here in a manner which runs counter to these

18 decisions, and we are in faced with a situation that a document which will

19 not be tendered into evidence or cannot be admitted because it has not

20 been authenticated, that it is not tendered, but the contents of that

21 document are nevertheless presented, that is the Prosecutor reads such

22 documents. And I do not think that that is really all right. Because in

23 this way, this document becomes evidence, because the transcript is

24 evidence. And now, if a document, perhaps is not tendered into evidence,

25 and its contents nevertheless may become part of the transcript because

Page 12059

1 the Prosecutor has read the document, then we once again have something

2 that we are objecting to and which is contrary to the decisions of the

3 Chamber. I would like to hear the opinion of the Chamber on this matter

4 because I think this is a problem which perhaps will keep cropping up

5 again, and it happened yesterday when our learned friends pointed out that

6 when certain documents are offered to be read, there will -- that they

7 would not be tendered but would -- but the Chamber would nevertheless be

8 acquainted with them, and I'd like that an end be put to that, to such a

9 practice, because we object to it and during the Prosecutor's case, we

10 were not allowed to use the same method. There were times when we tried

11 to present certain documents in this manner. This was prevented and these

12 decisions that I'm now referring to were made on those occasions. Thank

13 you.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Par, I think at this moment, I have to

15 remind you of the Rule 89(C) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, which

16 says, "A Trial Chamber may admit any relevant evidence which it deems to

17 have probative value." So, so far as I understand it, there are only two

18 criteria for the admission of the documents. One is the relevance. The

19 other is the probative value. And it is the discretion of the Trial

20 Chamber to make the decisions which means to see whether those documents

21 are relevant or whether it has probative value. At this moment, I would

22 like also to remind you a decision made by Appeals Chamber, which has the

23 binding force on us. That is there is no legal basis that proof of the

24 authenticity is a separate threshold requirement for the admissibility of

25 documentary evidence.

Page 12060

1 We believe that this Trial Chamber will act in accordance with the

2 rules and with the decisions rendered by the Appeals Chamber.

3 Could we have the witness, please?

4 JUDGE CLARK: Before the witness comes back, can I just say

5 something,? Mr. Krsnik you were so cross earlier that I was almost afraid

6 to ask you if you were going to allow me any time to pose questions to --

7 what about the last witness?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We haven't finished with the last witness yet.

9 Maybe just for another 15 minutes.

10 JUDGE CLARK: I had never known before doing this case that Croats

11 were Latin people but I know now. What I wanted to know is I hope you

12 won't be cross if I pose a few questions. I know your time is short and I

13 promise I won't be long but because this man is from Siroki Brijeg, unless

14 you have another witness from Siroki Brijeg, I'd like to ask him a few

15 questions. Have you any other witness who is better qualified?

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. There will be

17 quite a number of them. And they are the witnesses who will be

18 testifying -- I don't know whether we are in a private session but never

19 mind, those who will be testifying about the Convicts Battalion and so on

20 and so forth. As I promised I brought such witnesses. One of them will

21 be a background witness but others will all be fact witnesses and we have

22 a number of witnesses who were members and who will explain all the things

23 about this Convicts Battalion.

24 JUDGE CLARK: Maybe I'll just pose a couple of questions. You're

25 not to get cross.

Page 12061

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. You are very

2 kind.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, witness, please sit down. We won't take a long

4 time this afternoon.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Questioned by the Court:

7 JUDGE CLARK: Witness, because you're of a certain age and you're

8 a man of some authority in Siroki Brijeg, I wanted to ask you some

9 questions that maybe I can't ask anybody else. Just for a start, how big

10 is Siroki Brijeg? I'm sure I've been told but I don't remember.

11 A. If you mean the municipality of Siroki Brijeg.

12 JUDGE CLARK: Population.

13 A. 26.500.

14 JUDGE CLARK: Very good. The other question I wanted to ask you

15 about was the Convicts Battalion. You explained to us its origin, that

16 the founding members were people who had been persecuted in the past and

17 who had either served prison sentences or had been forced to leave the

18 country. And Mr. Naletilic was one of those people. When you talk about

19 the persecution, can we take it safely that you're talking about

20 persecution during the communist era?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE CLARK: When did that era come to an end? When was it safe

23 for people to express their views and maybe to return back to their native

24 country?

25 A. They could return when, in the eastern part of Europe, changes

Page 12062

1 took place, and also when Yugoslavia fell apart, when it broke down to the

2 former republics, and when -- and then they were free to return to their

3 homeland.

4 JUDGE CLARK: So if you are saying that there was persecution and

5 people were not allowed to express their political beliefs right up to

6 1989, would there be very young people, then, from Siroki Brijeg who would

7 have been persecuted by the communist regime?

8 A. Your Honours, not only in Siroki Brijeg but also across the

9 territory, it sufficed to start a song which the regime did not like, and

10 you'd get at least three to six months of imprisonment. People, including

11 young people under normal circumstances, did not naturally sing because

12 they knew what that meant. But you have a drink or two and you are in a

13 good mood, and on various special occasions, down there, all the Catholics

14 and then at Christmas time or Easter time, people would naturally sing,

15 and let's say even those prohibited songs.

16 JUDGE CLARK: Are you saying, sir, that the prohibition on singing

17 hymns was effective right up to 1989?

18 A. Well, let's say until 1989, perhaps a few years before that, in

19 Croatia, for instance, in 1971, the spring, the so-called Croat Spring.

20 And then there was some minor freedom which one could, in a -- that one

21 could also practise even in our parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Rankovic

22 was gone, who abdicated in 1966 and I can say that it was ever since then,

23 since then, some small freedom set in which then finally arrived that year

24 that you mentioned. Let me just mention a very simple song, Your Honours,

25 if you're interested, and you will hear that you could earn a six month --

Page 12063

1 JUDGE CLARK: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Krsnik

2 might get very cross because he has two witnesses who are anxious to given

3 that evidence. So for that reason I have to ask you to try your best

4 to be concise. Really what I want to know is would somebody as young as

5 the late Mario Hrkac have been persecuted? Or served a prison sentence or

6 been forced to leave?

7 A. In our area, we become of age at the age of 18, so whoever was 18

8 could be punished for anything, for a trifle little matter. So it was not

9 just the persecution of young people but their fathers, who were --

10 JUDGE CLARK: You missed my point. What I'm saying is somebody

11 who was as young as the late Mr. Hrkac, relative to, say, Mr. Andabak

12 or Mr. Naletilic, had he been persecuted, did he serve a prison sentence

13 for his political views under the communist regime?

14 A. It was enough to have family member who was an emigrant and you

15 would be under the scrutiny of the then regime, the then police, and if

16 Mario Hrkac -- I can't tell you anything concrete about him, but if

17 he had had anybody in emigration, maybe you have read it somewhere, I

18 think his uncle was liquidated by the UDBA, in Belgrade. So the entire

19 Hrkac family was under scrutiny.

20 JUDGE CLARK: If I move on to something else, would you be able to

21 assist us, and again you may not be able to because I know that you were

22 not politically active prior to the war, what, as far as you understand,

23 were the aims of the Convicts Battalion? I know you say that it was a

24 group of people who had been persecuted, who started it, but what did they

25 intend to do with the Convicts Battalion? Why did they start it?

Page 12064

1 A. Your Honours, I've tried to explain what the times were like, what

2 was going on, and what was the risk, the danger, facing not only Siroki

3 Brijeg but the entire area. So the general situation was far from being

4 good. The Serbs had attacked. We experienced an unexpected shock, and we

5 were under -- under the impression that the war -- there would never be

6 another war in the former Yugoslavia. That's what they taught us as

7 schools. And all of a sudden, we were attacked. People fled, they became

8 refugees. And some people remained, stayed back in the territory, and we

9 had to start organising ourselves to defend our homes, because these are

10 our homes. These are Croatian homes. We don't want to flee

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It is our homeland, in the same way it is the

12 homeland of other peoples, and we wanted to live together with them.

13 That's why we are never going to flee our homes. And we are going to

14 fight as hard as we have to, to allow our children to grow in their homes,

15 safely like any other child anywhere in the world. So that's why I'm

16 trying to --

17 JUDGE CLARK: I have to try and stop you, I'm sorry I don't want

18 to be rude but I really need shorter questions and maybe you feel very

19 deeply about this but we understand. What I want to know is do you know,

20 and if you don't, say you don't, do you know what were the aims of the

21 Convicts Battalion? Was it merely to be a defensive organisation in the

22 attack which was coming from the Serbs? Or was it a special purpose, as

23 you said, unit, for special tasks? I accept that anybody in a war wants

24 to defend their homes, their families, et cetera, but were there any

25 special motives in relation to the founding of the Convicts Battalion?

Page 12065

1 A. The only motive for the establishment of the Convicts Battalion

2 was to preserve the area, to protect the area, to rally people around

3 themselves. It was not easy. We were at the time very little people, and

4 I can tell here, speaking in front of God, if there had been no -- that

5 man over there, Mr. Naletilic, who had returned, and who tried to organise

6 us to encourage us to tell us not to be afraid, to encourage us to stay

7 where we were and try and protect our homes --

8 JUDGE CLARK: You see, everything that you're saying is

9 interesting but you've already told us before. I wanted specific answers

10 to the questions and maybe you're not the right person to ask. Mr. Krsnik

11 may have somebody else. One last question: Two last questions: Could

12 anybody join the Convicts Battalion besides -- in other words, did they

13 have to be associated with somebody who had been persecuted? Or could

14 anybody able-bodied join?

15 A. Everybody could join the Convicts Battalion whoever wanted to come

16 to the defence of their homes.

17 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. That's presently. The next and my last

18 question is at one stage yesterday you were telling us that there was a

19 large number of detainees who needed to be housed somewhere, and that it

20 was your job to find accommodation, and you had established where there

21 would be 20 beds available. Where in the tobacco factory were these 20

22 beds located?

23 A. If I still had the picture to show it to you, we are talking about

24 a small number of detainees, so if we are talking about 20 of them, then I

25 can show you exactly. It is in the Defence Department. There were a

Page 12066

1 number of rooms which -- which had beds in them and that is where people

2 could sleep. So six rooms for some 18 to 20 people. This is a long

3 building and it had this part -- was separate from others. I can show it

4 to you in the photo, if you'll allow me.

5 JUDGE CLARK: If the photograph is available conveniently but I

6 think that building was pointed out to us by another witness. It has a

7 sort of white roof, a long building towards the perimeter on the -- if

8 it's convenient. If you could put the pointer on the location, once

9 you've established where it is, please?

10 A. Behind this white building, behind this white building, there is a

11 house which is almost as long as the front building itself. So in here,

12 in one part are the Defence department premises and in its other part,

13 there were detainees. And they had all the amenities, all the conditions.

14 JUDGE CLARK: You've been very helpful. Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge's question? Well, thank

16 you very much, Witness, for coming to The Hague to give your evidence. We

17 appreciate that very much. When the usher pulls down the blinds, you may

18 go, and we all wish you a good journey home.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

22 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours, through Witness

23 NH, we would like to tender D1/344, due to the testimony of the witness,

24 we'd ask that that be under seal. And.

25 JUDGE LIU: No, no, no, no, no. There is no --

Page 12067

1 MR. MEEK: D1/345. And the picture, P26.9, as marked by the

2 witness, is -- we gave it a number yesterday, Your Honour. D1/43.1.

3 Thank you.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections? Mr. Scott? Since there

5 is only three documents.

6 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. I don't believe so but I was just

7 to be honest I was just pulling them back out again, if I could just look

8 for a moment. No, Your Honour. There is no objections. There is no

9 objections.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. These three documents are admitted into

11 evidence. Do you have any documents to tender?

12 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I do. I would appreciate the Chamber's

13 indulgence if I could again, especially in light of all the complaints

14 that have been made in the last few days if I could go back through them

15 and sort them to find which ones would actually be tendered, I would

16 appreciate it.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may do that.

18 Mr. Krsnik, could we have the next witness? And please.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE LIU: [Previous translation continues] ... thank you.

21 [The witness entered court].

22 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can hear you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: I'm sorry for keeping you waiting. You may sit -- I'm

25 so sorry. Would you please make the solemn declaration, please?

Page 12068

1 THE WITNESS: Should I read it in my native language?

2 JUDGE LIU: Whatever you like.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.


7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. First I

9 would like to ask the technicians to lower the ELMO.

10 Examined by Mr. Krsnik:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. In front of you is a

12 monitor which helps us in communication, in order to make our interpreters

13 lives easier. Please follow the cursor on the screen. I'm sure you won't

14 find it a difficult, and we have to make sure that we don't overlap in our

15 questions and answers. Now you're going to see a piece of paper with your

16 name on it. Don't utter the name, just say, "Yes," if that is indeed your

17 name.

18 A. Yes, this is my name.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can we go to private session for a

20 short while?

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session, please.

22 [Private session]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 12069












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Page 12070












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Page 12071












12 Page 12071 redacted private session














Page 12072

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [Open session]

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Can you continue, follow your -- the questions in front of you?

16 You said there were several. So can you answer them one by one?

17 A. Well, my relation to those detainees was -- I was asked by my

18 brigade and municipality to talk to those guys and ask them if they were

19 willing to join some action on digging certain channel or trench for power

20 supply, to radio station repeater.

21 Q. Who asked you to talk to them? And what was their answer? What

22 was your duty in respect of these detainees? You had a certain task.

23 What task did you have? Can you please tell that to the Honourable

24 Court? I don't want to interrupt you all the time.

25 A. Well, since I was kind of a Home Guard and everybody knew that I

Page 12073












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts. Pages 12073 to 12081.













Page 12082

1 was a communicative person, they asked me to speak to those guys and ask

2 them if they are willing to go out, because they were obviously bored, and

3 to ask them if they were willing to help digging this trench. I was

4 supposed -- and three other guys -- to prevent any kind of maltreating of

5 those detainees.

6 Q. And they were whose responsibility? Who had brought them, if you

7 know that, and why were they put up where they were put up?

8 A. I think that military police brought them in, and as they later

9 told me when we started communicating, that they were suspected of certain

10 crimes and were interrogated, and some of them were waiting the exchange.

11 Q. Will you now describe briefly, that was forced labour, and what

12 kind of food did they -- were given, what kind of treatment they

13 received? And then we shall go into private session to hear what others

14 besides you were made responsible for them, who were there to take care of

15 them.

16 A. Well, they were not forced to work. They were helping the

17 workers, one other company from Siroki Brijeg, who were having the

18 equipment and were doing the digging of the hard parts, and they were sort

19 of removing the material, cutting the surrounding bushes and trees along

20 the trench, yes.

21 Q. And what about the food? Where did you get your food from?

22 A. Well, the food was common military food.

23 Q. [no interpretation] Where was it prepared?

24 A. It was cooked in a military kitchen.

25 Q. And where was that?

Page 12083

1 A. That kitchen first was in the facilities of a company, Feal,

2 F-E-A-L. And later on, in the facilities of Obnova company.

3 Q. Were the detainees given some different food or did you all have

4 the same kind of food? I mean prepared in that kitchen.

5 A. The food was same for everybody.

6 Q. And when there were out on working sites, were they getting some

7 better quality food or something?

8 A. Well, it was sufficient and the leftovers were just taken back.

9 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge if they were also given

10 cigarettes, or beer? Was that provided for? What do you know about

11 that?

12 A. Yes. You could often see beers there. And cigarettes almost

13 regularly.

14 Q. Were cigarettes also distributed amongst everybody? I mean the

15 HVO soldiers? Was it the common practice to distribute them?

16 A. We almost regularly received cigarettes because nobody at that

17 time had money enough, and it was the usual manner that the command would

18 share cigarettes for everybody.

19 Q. Do they come as part of a -- relief or do you know what was the

20 source, what was the provenance of those cigarettes, of course, if you

21 know that?

22 A. I don't really know.

23 Q. Very well. Will you please be so kind? I have a couple of

24 questions and two photographs and that will be the end of it and I will

25 hand you over to the Prosecutor. Tell me, please, did anyone mistreat

Page 12084

1 them? Did somebody come to mistreat them? Did you see them receive blows

2 or being bruised?

3 A. No.

4 Q. My co-counsel reminds me to ask you how did the work -- I mean how

5 many hours did they work? When would they go out? When would they come

6 back to their premises? What were the working hours?

7 A. Well, since this was during the summer time, when the weather is

8 very hot, people usually work in this manner: You start your job, let's

9 say 8.00 in the morning, then you work until approximately noon. Then you

10 have lunch, beer and a short break. And then you wait for sun to set down

11 a little bit. And let's say 4.00 in the afternoon, and then you work a

12 bit more, let's say until about 8.00. And then we would go back downtown.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Could we go into private session just

14 for a moment, please?

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

16 [Private session]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 12085












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Page 12088

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [Open session]

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Now, from this spot to the house, was there any where that you

23 took the detainees to, to carry out some work?

24 A. No, not at this spot. The works were done much closer to me, from

25 my position. And down the slope on the left side.

Page 12089

1 Q. Perhaps one can see it on photograph 26.2, where you went to

2 perform those works. Take the pointer up, please, and let's take the

3 tobacco station as your reference point. Will you point at that?

4 A. [indicates]

5 Q. Right. Can you see the building that you were housed in on this

6 photograph? Where the detainees were put up? Can you please circle it

7 and put "1".

8 A. [marks]

9 Q. Are you aware if those other buildings at the tobacco station were

10 in use in 1992 and 1993? Perhaps you can point to them.

11 A. No. The other facilities were out of usage. They were quite

12 ruined and were not appropriate for use.

13 Q. Okay. Very good. And will you please now try to see where this

14 transmitter was and where is it that you performed the work?

15 A. It is not contained with this picture, but --

16 Q. But roughly?

17 A. [Previous translation continues] ... the right side, by this road,

18 and then up the hill, and then to the right side, and I just can show it

19 approximately like this, like here, somewhere like here.

20 Q. But take the pointer to show us the last point. Can't see?

21 A. [Previous translation continues] ... should go to the right and

22 then up the hill. And a little bit backwards.

23 Q. Right. Can we see at least the hill on this photograph? And will

24 you then point at the last point of that hill, if that is you can find

25 your way about this photograph?

Page 12090

1 A. [Microphone not activated]

2 Q. All right. The last one I believe we have another one.

3 MR. KRSNIK: I'm sorry, Your Honours, just one consultation.

4 Q. Could we have once again 26.1? Perhaps you'll be able to find

5 your way about that photograph better, because my client tells me that one

6 can see the transmitter. Perhaps you simply did not see it, did not get

7 your bearings right on that photograph. 26.2?

8 JUDGE LIU: Well --

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

10 Q. This is an air photograph, so perhaps --

11 JUDGE CLARK: Well, Mr. Krsnik, just so we can get our bearings?

12 Do you remember the first photograph that you showed this witness where he

13 said from a point you couldn't see the house?

14 MR. KRSNIK: Yes.

15 JUDGE CLARK: Could you relate that photograph, the area

16 encompassed in that photograph on to this one, if it is in fact included?

17 It's very unclear.

18 MR. KRSNIK: Okay, because -- [Interpretation] Yes, this is an

19 aerial photograph it's really not easy to discern that's why one can see

20 the tobacco station very clearly all these buildings, right we've resolved

21 that. Can we now have 25.2 back?

22 Q. And perhaps you can show us here the last points and where is it

23 that you worked?

24 A. From point 1 down to the left, and down the hill.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Well, I hope we were of some help.

Page 12091

1 JUDGE CLARK: Do you see that stone building that looks like a

2 grotto? That's what it looks like to me in the photographer, it's not

3 clear. It's a sort of semicircular cut stone. It looks like the sort of

4 thing that was fashionable in the 50s.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Do you mean this?

6 JUDGE CLARK: I haven't got my glasses on. I can't see that far.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] In the middle of the photograph

8 between the house and point 1? I see, look at it, does it look like a

9 heap of stones?


11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Do you know what that is, between point 1 and the house, you will

13 see a hill, a mount of stones.

14 A. You mean this?

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes.


17 THE WITNESS: Then the spot 1?

18 JUDGE CLARK: It just shows how different it looks. That's

19 clearly a tree, and on my photograph it looks like a stone-cut building.

20 You just wonder what we are looking at. It would be very useful if we had

21 this photograph because it's much clearer than what's on the ELMO.

22 MR. KRSNIK: That's right.

23 JUDGE LIU: Have you got enough photographs?

24 MR. KRSNIK: Yes, from Madam Registrar. That's yours, that's your

25 copy.

Page 12092

1 JUDGE CLARK: That's your copy so we have to manage as best we

2 can.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Just one final question to assist the

4 Chamber.

5 Q. Look at the point marked by 1. What is -- what is that? This

6 looks as if somebody was digging. Did you do that? What is that column

7 or pylon? What is that?

8 A. I don't know exactly what this pole is but I think that this is

9 the beginning of the channel.

10 Q. This pole or pylon, you don't know what it is, is that the

11 electricity or what? Okay. Then, can we have the last photograph,

12 please? Do you recognise what things you see in these photos? This is

13 Exhibit D342.

14 A. Yeah, this is the building where the military police was

15 situated.

16 Q. And one final question, my colleague has reminded me to ask you:

17 How long -- how much time did you spend with the detainees? You and the

18 other four people you've mentioned.

19 A. With certain breaks, for about month and a half.

20 Q. Do you know whether they received any remuneration for the work

21 that they did?

22 A. I was told that the municipality authorities are going to give

23 them certain amount of money. I don't know honestly how much.

24 Q. And who did they give the money to?

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my client insists on us

Page 12093

1 asking the Prosecution to give us the photo with the entire canal. Have

2 you ever given that to us? From the transmission station to the end. Do

3 we have that from you?

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott?

5 MR. SCOTT: I don't know, Your Honour, I don't know what they are

6 talking about, some photograph that --

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Because my client insists that that

8 photo exists, that he has seen it here. I haven't seen it myself. The

9 photo of that canal or channel.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe during the break we could look into the

11 files to see whether there is a photo exists.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

13 Honours.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, I understand it's time for the break. And we

15 will have cross-examination after the break. We will resume at quarter to

16 6.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 5.19 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 5.46 p.m.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there has been a

21 misunderstanding between me and my client. My client claims that a photo

22 was seen in this courtroom depicting the entire Cigansko Brdo. Allegedly

23 that photo was taken from a helicopter and that photo depicts the canal

24 with the transmission station, and I cannot seem to be able to convince

25 him that even if it was in the courtroom, that it doesn't have to still be

Page 12094

1 with Madam Registrar. He remembers the photo. We -- all of us Defence

2 council have been discussing that issue and in that case, if that photo

3 cannot be found, we all know that if it was exhibited in the courtroom,

4 that it has to be in the files. That's what we are trying to tell our

5 client, that there is no way that something can be shown once and then

6 withdrawn. That it has to remain in the files. So he didn't tell you.

7 JUDGE CLARK: I think Judge Diarra is trying to say something that

8 hasn't shown up in the transcript.

9 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] I've said twice that your client

10 should give us the number, the ID number, of that photo.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, during the break -- before the break, I asked

12 Madam Registrar to look into the files to find that photo, if that is the

13 case. But up to now, we have not received any positive report on that. I

14 believe that Madam Registrar will keep looking for it.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Now, my colleague, Mr. Meek is

16 looking at everything that has been shown in the courtroom. I hope that

17 he will have a positive -- there will be a positive outcome, and if it

18 cannot be found, then I shall ask to be able to bring back the witness for

19 another time, because my client, I believe, is right, that since the

20 witness is here, that he should be able to point exactly where things are,

21 because what he was been shown has nothing to do with the house or around

22 the house and I agree with my client on that.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this moment, we are not sure whether we could

24 find this photo or not. So I think during the next hours, Madam Registrar

25 will do her best and try to locate that photo.

Page 12095

1 Could we --

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Or, Your Honours, I can do something

3 else. Maybe we can start the cross-examination because, realistically

4 saying we cannot see the last witness, so let him stand until Monday, and

5 over the weekend, maybe my client could tell me exactly what area he wants

6 to see. Maybe I could organise that to be photographed over the weekend

7 and sent here to the -- by the DHL, and then I would ask another question

8 to this witness about that new photo, and then I would also allow

9 cross-examination after that question.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well --

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] And the witness should remain under

12 the oath, of course.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, we remember that a videotape was shown at that

14 time that might indicate.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, it was a videotape.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Well, Mr. Krsnik, I think we have to start the

17 cross-examination of this witness right now.

18 MR. KRSNIK: Yes, please.

19 JUDGE LIU: And I'll give you the opportunity to bring up this

20 matter again during your re-examination and I also believe that this

21 subject will be subject to the cross-examination again.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 JUDGE LIU: Could we have the witness, please?

24 Any direct examination, Mr. Seric?

25 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you.

Page 12096

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Cross-examination? Yes,

2 Mr. Scott.

3 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Scott:

5 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 Q. The reference to taking the time when these Muslim children were

8 evacuated from the hospital in East Mostar, just one or two questions on

9 that. Do you have an approximate date, sir, of this event?

10 A. It was in the summer of 1993. June and July, I think.

11 Q. And was this a one-time -- a particular event that you say this

12 Sally Baker wrote about?

13 A. There are two events regarding Mostar hospital, and one event

14 regarding Nova Bila Hospital.

15 Q. When you say in connection with the evacuation of the wounded and

16 sick children from the hospital in East Mostar, on the east side, that's

17 what I'm specifically directing your attention to at the moment. That

18 happened on -- this evacuation happened on one occasion; is that correct?

19 A. There were two evacuations from Mostar east.

20 Q. All right. And that was again during this June or July, 1993 time

21 period?

22 A. That is right.

23 Q. All right. And on those occasions, were these efforts, these

24 evacuation efforts, accompanied by, for instance, anyone from the Spanish

25 Battalion or ECMM or any of the international agencies who were in the

Page 12097

1 area?

2 A. Not on the very occasion of evacuation. Ms. Sally Baker, that I

3 admire very much for her bravery, took our ambulance across the no-man's

4 land into Mostar east, and we arranged sort of cease-fire for that

5 occasions, but I was deeply concerned for her, for, you know, when you are

6 going through the no-man's land, there always can be a soldier that is too

7 nervous, or doesn't understand the situation, he just sees an ambulance

8 coming in and he can shoot.

9 Q. All right, sir. And my question is about this is not to it take

10 anything away from the good effort that may have been made at that time.

11 I just want to make sure that the Judges understand and I understand the

12 event as closely as possible. So it was Ms. Baker who took an ambulance

13 across into the east side, and it was not -- or did it include you and

14 Mr. Bagaric or just Ms. Baker?

15 A. She did it herself. She drove the ambulance across.

16 Q. All right. Then I take it then what happened is some Muslim

17 children were brought back by Ms. Baker to the west side hospital; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes. And they were given the first aid, and we arranged all the

20 papers for them to be transferred to Split hospital and further.

21 Q. Do you have a rough idea of how many children were involved in

22 this occasion?

23 A. I imagine about ten.

24 Q. Do you recall the nature of their wounds or the condition they

25 were in?

Page 12098

1 A. No, sir, I didn't check. I didn't have a close look at them.

2 Q. All right, now, sir, turning to the detainees in Siroki Brijeg,

3 can you tell the Judges, please, approximately how many detainees do you

4 say agreed to work under the terms that you outlined?

5 A. It depended on the very special day. Between ten and 15.

6 Q. Was this work done every day or was it done sporadically, maybe

7 one day here and then a few days later there would be work again or how

8 did that -- how did that function?

9 A. It was not work, day after day. Depending on various situations,

10 sometimes this company from Siroki Brijeg was doing some works where they

11 didn't need the detainees or anybody else to help them.

12 Q. During, if I understand you correctly, you said, sir, that this

13 work continued for approximately a month and a half; is that right?

14 A. That is right. That is the time that I spent with them.

15 Q. All right. And so can you give us an idea during that month and a

16 half, how many days, since you said that the work wasn't done every day,

17 approximately how many days during that month and a half period were they

18 actually, as far as you know, working on this power cable trench?

19 A. I don't know for sure but I guess -- I'd say 20 days out of those

20 month and a half.

21 Q. On the days that you were with them, were you with them all day?

22 Is that the nature of your assignment?

23 A. Yes. When I was with them, I spent all day with them.

24 Q. And when you tell us it was these 20 -- that they worked for

25 approximately these 20 days were you present with them on each of those 20

Page 12099

1 days or only some of those days?

2 A. Not all of the 20 days.

3 Q. Approximately how many of the 20 days were you personally with the

4 detainees? And I realise, sir, it's not going to be precise but give us

5 your best estimate.

6 A. It cannot be -- it was quite a long time ago, sir. I imagine,

7 let's say out of these 20 -- let's say ten or 15.

8 Q. All right, sir. So during this month and a half period, you were

9 personally with them somewhere around approximately perhaps ten or 15

10 days, correct?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. And do you know where these detainees were on the times -- at the

13 times, excuse me, during that month and a half period when they were not

14 working on the power line?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Do you recall the names of any of these detainees?

17 A. No. I don't recall the names. I recall a couple of nicknames.

18 Q. All right. Well, can you give us any that you can remember,

19 please?

20 A. Yeah. I recall "Mirso" and "Sejo."

21 Q. Can you spell those, please, as best you can?

22 A. Okay. M-I-R-S-O.

23 Q. Mirso. And the other?

24 A. S-E-J-O.

25 Q. You said, if I heard your testimony correctly, the Defence counsel

Page 12100

1 asked you if these men were paid, I believe your answer was someone told

2 you that the municipal authority was going to give them some money. Was

3 that your testimony?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. And can we understand from that, sir, that you don't really know

6 if they were actually paid or not?

7 A. I really don't know.

8 MR. SCOTT: If the witness could please be shown Exhibit 25.2,

9 that's the photo of again the ridge with the villa.

10 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, may I explain something?

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

12 THE WITNESS: I was confused with this screen and my goggles, my

13 spectacles, glasses. In the room out there, I thought a little bit. This

14 spot 1, this number 1 that I made on the photo, is not the beginning of

15 the channel that we were digging. The channel starts far closer to me.

16 And at that time, at the beginning of the channel, there was -- there was

17 a kind of a small shed or building made of cement with no door, and we

18 used to keep the tools in there. Instead of carrying them forth and

19 back. So the point where the channel was started was much closer to me,

20 when I looked at this photo. This photo is a bit tricky because it was

21 probably made from the helicopter or something, so I was confused with it,

22 and I hope this will help.


24 Q. All right. Just for clarification sake, when you say closer to

25 you, when you're looking at the photograph, if we all are orienting

Page 12101

1 ourselves to the photograph and looking at the point that you marked as, I

2 believe, 01, you're saying that the point, the start of this canal was

3 closer towards away from the picture, back toward the viewer; is that

4 right? Or in other words, roughly to the -- toward the left bottom corner

5 of the photograph, in that direction?

6 A. Yes, approximately straight towards me. Maybe even 100 metres.

7 Q. All right. Now, could the usher please show the witness, then,

8 25.4? Sir, if you'll look at that, I don't know if this will assist or

9 not, but the feature you -- are you just referred to a moment ago, if I

10 direct your attention to the upper left corner of that photograph, do you

11 see a small shed on that photograph? Or some structure? Strike the word

12 shed, but some structure?

13 A. Well, Your Honours, as far as I can see in the far left corner

14 there is something.

15 Q. Is that the feature you are you were talking about?

16 A. But did it shouldn't be -- I don't think that it is it.

17 Q. All right?

18 JUDGE LIU: Would you please put the photo on the ELMO so that

19 everybody could follow you?

20 THE WITNESS: Sorry. If I'm right, you mean this point here?


22 Q. Yes, looks like there is --

23 A. It seems to me like a roof that's made of bricks.

24 Q. Yes, looks like a white structure with a red tile roof. And you

25 don't think that that's the feature that you were referring to a moment

Page 12102

1 ago?

2 A. No.

3 Q. All right. Would you look, please, back then at the other

4 photograph, 25.2, the one that we've spent most of our time looking at?

5 The point that you've marked as 01, if you know -- I mean exactly what is

6 it that is at that location? We can see a circular area below it that's

7 obviously disturbed ground, and there is a -- some sort of a structure

8 there. Just what is that, as far as you know?

9 A. I really don't know, sir.

10 Q. So is it fair to say that in your testimony, you're not indicating

11 that the work that these detainees were doing had anything to do with

12 building that, looks like a pole with some sort of a box or something

13 attached to the bottom of that? This had nothing to do with the work you

14 were doing at that time?

15 A. This has got nothing to do with what we were doing.

16 Q. And you don't know what that feature in fact is, correct?

17 A. That is so.

18 Q. All right. Now, around that, if you look from that same feature,

19 immediately to the -- well, approximately perhaps five centimetres to the

20 left, there appears to be a vertical line, a pole, something that looks

21 like a pole. Do you see that?

22 A. I see -- I see it, Your Honour, but I cannot recognise what it is.

23 Q. All right. But there does appear to be a pole there, and just if

24 I can orient you a bit further, sir, then if you come back to the right,

25 along that approximate same line, to the right of the feature, you can see

Page 12103

1 another pole out toward, on this side but out toward that group of trees.

2 Do you see that?

3 A. Is it this that I'm pointing?

4 Q. Yes, sir. Probably the one I probably should have started with is

5 the easiest to see is down by the number, toward the right bottom corner

6 of the photograph, there is another pole. Do you see that? Yes.

7 A. Is it this that I'm pointing?

8 Q. Yes, sir, thank you. Were those poles in place at the time that

9 this work was being done? Do you recall?

10 A. I couldn't tell so, sir, but this thing here, at the point 1,

11 looks to me like a discarded, ancient TV antenna.

12 Q. All right. Let me ask you -- well, so you don't recall if those

13 other poles were located at that time in 1993 or not; is that right?

14 A. No, sir.

15 Q. Now, if you look at the house with the red tile roof, and if you

16 come back not -- at an angle, again back toward, not generally but to the

17 left edge of the photograph, if you look, sir, I think you will see

18 another line of poles. Can you see those? Maybe probably very difficult

19 on the ELMO, but --

20 A. Can I take it just for a second?

21 Q. Of course.

22 A. On the left side of the picture -- I don't see that, Your Honour.

23 Q. If you look at the house, sir, and if you come to the left of the

24 house at approximately an 8.00 position, not straight across but at a

25 slight angle downward and across to the edge, I suggest to you, sir, there

Page 12104

1 is a series of three or four poles along a line. In any event, sir, do

2 you remember -- let me ask this in the interests of time: Do you remember

3 any of those poles --

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've kept quiet but I

5 have to say these are speculations. The Prosecutor, my learned friend,

6 was not there. He hasn't seen anything that is in the photos. Does he

7 have any foundation about what he's saying, what poles? Where poles?

8 He's speculating all the time, suggesting things that he doesn't know

9 anything about. These are photos which were taken in 1998 or whenever.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, we haven't heard questions from the

11 Prosecution. Let us hear.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, I know, but speculation in the

13 question asks for speculation in the answer.

14 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, quite the contrary. I'm looking at

15 exactly the same photograph that everybody in the courtroom is looking

16 at. I'm drawing the witness's attention to specific features. He told us

17 he was there. He told us very specifically he was there on a number of

18 days. I'm simply asking him for information about this site that may lead

19 to something. It may lead to other inferences or questions. It may not.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may proceed.


22 Q. Let me ask you this, sir: Apart from -- well, let me back up.

23 Tell us again now, in light of some of the clarifications you provided to

24 us, where exactly was this work being done by the detainees?

25 A. Your Honour, thank you for this question. That is just what I

Page 12105

1 wanted to say. At the place where we were working, as I said, much closer

2 to me. I cannot make a better expression.

3 Q. All right?

4 A. Much closer to me. So I was not at this very spot.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have a proposal now

6 that the answer, the witness has answered. Why don't we make a break and

7 show everybody the videotape that my client was referring to? I think it

8 has been admitted in evidence. And the witness is here. We can ask him

9 questions about that video and he can be cross-examined about that video

10 and give a relevant evidence. And the client, as far as he remembers, he

11 remembers that everything can be seen clearly on that videotape.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, do you have that video at your possession,

13 Mr. Krsnik?

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I don't have it here. I have it at

15 home. But I think that Madam Registrar has it here. She just has to

16 remember the number. It was admitted with a witness Van Hecke who was

17 the first witness.

18 JUDGE CLARK: It was the 11th, I think. By sheer accident I was

19 looking for something in his evidence during the break.

20 MR. SCOTT: I believe it's P31. I don't know what it shows but I

21 believe the video is P31.

22 Mr. President, I have no objection to looking at the videotape if

23 it will assist the Chamber. I do object to the interruption of the

24 cross-examination. I think these are reasonable questions to put to the

25 witness, not based on speculation at all.

Page 12106

1 Q. So, sir, subject to looking at a video, which if it's available

2 we'll certainly be happy to do that but the place this group much

3 detainees were working on the ten or 15 days that you were with them is

4 not really shown on this photograph then at all, is it, 25.2?

5 A. That is correct.

6 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, subjects to looking at the video, I

7 have no further questions.


9 JUDGE CLARK: Can I ask, Mr. Scott, who introduced that photograph

10 today?

11 MR. SCOTT: This photograph?

12 JUDGE CLARK: The photograph that's causing us so much problem

13 that this witness is looking at at the moment, 25.2.

14 MR. SCOTT: The Defence, Your Honour. It was our photograph but

15 it was used today by the defence. It's been in the binder 1 since the

16 first day of trial.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] This is correct, Your Honour. And

18 this is what I ask every witness. Has he -- if he has ever been there

19 because I was surprised when my learned friend, Mr. Scott, asked a

20 protected witness, I can't say anything further, about that question. So

21 that particular witness insisted that he was standing on this place where

22 this pole or whatever it is, and that he could see the house from that

23 place.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott?

25 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I do apologise for the interruption.

Page 12107

1 Especially to you if I did. But -- and also to Mr. Krsnik in this

2 instance of the problem is we are doing we have a witness sitting here

3 and we are having all sorts of dialogue, if counsel has a point to make,

4 fine, but let's excuse the witness, please, but no long explanations and

5 arguments in front of the witness, please.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I think it's time for us to watch that video.

7 [Videotape played]

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, it seems to me that we did not find that place

9 from that video.

10 Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes. I can see there is no photo.

12 The cross-examination is over. I would have some questions in order to

13 actually locate where that place was. I don't want to have to call this

14 witness again, because maybe I could, over this coming witness, organise

15 that the -- a photo is taken of that place in order to actually illustrate

16 where that place was.

17 Re-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Now you have that photograph in front of you,

19 sir?

20 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President while they are consulting if there is

21 any further discussion about the evidence in front of the witness. I will

22 consider the witness contaminated on this point.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Krsnik, your re-examination, please.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness, let's make --

Page 12108

1 A. Let me tell you something. If you could make that other photo

2 that I saw a couple of minutes ago, which was taken from the other side, I

3 could direct you into which direction the channel was. Actually this

4 small shed. So the photo that was taken from this side to here, I could

5 show you the direction into which --

6 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik will do that for us.

7 THE WITNESS: I could just show the direction. [indicates] So in

8 the direction of this little stick, as the hill goes -- as the hill goes

9 sloping left and right, and then there is the end of the hill, so very

10 close to the end of the hill, there is a small, concrete shed and that's

11 the spot from which we started digging. I hope this helps.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

13 Q. [Microphone not activated] I apologise, Your Honours. Thank you

14 for the warning. Can you please make an arrow and tell us how far, in

15 metres, is there from the house with the red tiles or from the end of the

16 photograph? How far is that in metres? How far is from the brim of the

17 photo, from the edge of the photo, to the place that you're referring to,

18 approximately? I know that you don't know it exactly?

19 A. It's very hard to tell it upon this photograph, but a wild guess

20 is 400 to 500 metres.

21 Q. Can you please write that down, 400 to 500 metres from the margin

22 of the photo?

23 And my final question: Have you ever seen Mr. Naletilic talking

24 to these detainees? Did you ever see him talking to the detainees or

25 coming close to them or anything like that?

Page 12109

1 A. Not at all.

2 Q. And tell me, please, the Prosecutor asked you about the

3 remuneration. Who told you that they would receive money? Who were they

4 supposed to receive money from? Do you know that? Who told you that,

5 that the detainees were supposed to get some money from the municipality?

6 A. I was told by the guys from the military police, that they were

7 informed by the municipality, that they intend to pay them some money.

8 Q. And when were they supposed to pay them? Did they tell you that?

9 A. Each of them should be paid when he was released or exchanged or

10 when they definitely leave Siroki Brijeg.

11 Q. I have consulted with my colleague because it has occurred to me

12 to ask something else, now I'm sorry we are all tired but will you allow

13 me another question which is -- did these detainees work anywhere else but

14 on this site? I asked you about the swimming pool, the one downtown. Who

15 did that swimming pool belong to? Whose swimming pool was that?

16 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Your Honour I don't want to be too limiting

17 but this is beyond the scope.

18 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, as a rule the of re-examination, your

19 questions should be defined by the scope of cross-examination.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 Q. But did those detainees work anywhere else? Did you take them to

22 any other place?

23 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm sorry that was the same question I

24 just objected to.

25 MR. KRSNIK: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 12110

1 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from Judges. Yes, Judge Clark.

2 Questioned by the Court:

3 JUDGE CLARK: As usual, I have a few. I was interested in what

4 you said when you were asked to go to where the detainees were kept and to

5 propose to them that they might be able to do some work, if they wanted to

6 volunteer for work. Was it your impression that that was the first time

7 that anybody had suggested that they might do some work outside of the

8 confines of the temporary prison?

9 A. Yes, Your Honour, it was my impression, that is my impression that

10 they were a bit surprised. They were a bit surprised by such an idea, to

11 go outside. And it was my feeling that they were bored, they are young

12 guys sitting all day long, doing nothing.

13 JUDGE CLARK: Did all of them agree to go or did some hesitate?

14 Out of the group, what would you say the percentage was who agreed to

15 volunteer, as you say?

16 A. As far as I can remember, precisely, there were ten or 11 of them

17 first day, and then obviously they told the story to other guys, and then

18 from that -- from the very first day on, they used to go all of them who

19 were in situation to go, aside from those who had to be interrogated or

20 waiting for something else, I don't know.

21 JUDGE CLARK: Were there any who were unfit to go because of

22 injuries or reasons like that?

23 A. Not that I know.

24 JUDGE CLARK: So all in all, you went to speak to the group that

25 were in the tobacco station uniquely? You didn't go to the MUP or to the

Page 12111

1 military police headquarters? You uniquely went to this particular

2 building in the tobacco station; is that right?

3 A. That is correct.

4 JUDGE CLARK: Now if we go back to the photograph that was on the

5 ELMO, how far is the area that you were working at, the beginning of the

6 channel, from Siroki Brijeg? And where is the end of the channel? What

7 was the end point where the construction work would end?

8 A. I'm sorry, quite a long question, but this is not very far from

9 the city. The road goes like zigzag up the road, and then when you start

10 the channel from the top, it goes straight down the slope of the hill, and

11 almost touches the road where you start up the hill.

12 JUDGE CLARK: What I'm trying to figure out is the point that you

13 told us where you started near the hut, from that point, did you go uphill

14 towards the mast that was going to be constructed? Is that right?

15 A. No. The works started on the top and then downwards, down the

16 slope.

17 JUDGE CLARK: Now, from the photograph that we have been looking

18 at, especially the second photograph, the one that was taken from the

19 other side of the house, the last one that was on the ELMO, it might even

20 still be there. Now, when one looks at that photograph, sir, it looks

21 fairly boulder strewn, wild country side and fairly arid. Would you agree

22 with my assessment?

23 A. You're completely true. It was quite arid area. Okay, dry area,

24 with a tiny vegetation, mostly rocky, tiny trees.

25 JUDGE CLARK: Yes. Rocky would be the main feature, I think,

Page 12112

1 you'd agree? The point I'm getting to rather slowly is, there appear to

2 be very few roads in this area apart from the road leading up to the house

3 that's shown in the other photograph, there appears to be a very new

4 stretch of road leading up to that house. How did you transport these 15

5 detainees every day from the tobacco factory up here?

6 A. By a small bus. I think four lines of seats or five lines of

7 seats.

8 Q. And where did you park the bus? Because the road obviously

9 peters out. Where did you park the bus every day?

10 A. Always at the same place, because there is a small plain in front

11 of this tiny building of cement that I mentioned.

12 JUDGE CLARK: If you look at the aerial photograph would you be

13 able to identify where that road is? It may not be possible.

14 A. If I could get a top view completely, I could show you every tiny

15 road, every spot. But this very situation is beyond this photo.

16 JUDGE CLARK: I see. So is it your evidence that every day that

17 you were with the detainees in the little bus, that you would be able to

18 drive up to where the concrete shed is and you parked the car there or the

19 bus there every day? How far would that place where you parked the car be

20 from the second photograph Madam Registrar, that you had of the two, which

21 shows -- I think -- may I just have a look at that? Yes. Which shows --

22 that's the right one, thank you. Which shows some sort of a wall and a

23 gate, on the left-hand side, the extreme left.

24 A. Your Honour, you mean this?


Page 12113

1 A. Okay. From this spot, you go on the left, I'm not sure between 70

2 to 100 metres, then you have this macadam road, macadam road, going on,

3 let's say, as I said, from here, 400 to 500, plus maybe 200 here, but this

4 is a wild guess, really. And then you have the small concrete house

5 and --

6 JUDGE CLARK: I just want you to be quite clear about that. You

7 didn't park the car or the little bus in that little area by the gate?

8 A. No. That's far, far away from here.

9 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you very much. I've no further questions.

10 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judges questions?

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott?

13 MR. SCOTT: Yes, one question, I think

14 Further cross-examination by Mr. Scott


16 Q. You worked at the top of the hill you started at the top of the

17 hill and worked downhill, so as the work was progressing you're actually

18 moving further and further away from the house that we can see on the

19 photograph? Is that right? No further questions.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, you have to say something. Yes or no.

21 Because nodding is not registered in the transcript.

22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, yes, that is true. I'm sorry, Your

23 Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Then let me try to clarify it further

Page 12114

1 because of all of us.

2 Further re-examination by Mr. Krsnik

3 Q. When you reached the end, where did you get once you came down

4 this hill? Where did this channel or trench end up or, begin?

5 A. It came very close to the asphalt street -- road that goes up the

6 hill, which --

7 Q. And where is that asphalt road once you come down?

8 A. [Previous translation continues] ... to the water supplying tanks

9 which supply the city with water.

10 Q. And finally, next to the swimming pool, we all know the picture,

11 once you've come down to the river, is it level with the swimming pool

12 or --

13 A. I should say a bit above the level of the swimming pool.

14 Q. And how far from the swimming pool? The one in the -- I mean the

15 municipal one?

16 JUDGE LIU: Which swimming pool do you mean, the swimming pool in

17 the city?

18 MR. KRSNIK: In the city, yeah.

19 JUDGE LIU: I think that's some new elements you came up again.

20 MR. KRSNIK: No, no.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I merely wanted to

23 help you, and I'm sorry, if I may, my apologies just to give you some idea

24 as to where this trench ended up but if you think that it is settled, then

25 I have no more questions and thank you.

Page 12115

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you, Witness, for coming here to give your

2 evidence. We appreciate it very much. When the usher pulls down the

3 blinds, he will show you out of this courtroom. We wish you a pleasant

4 journey back home.

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

8 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, may I tender four

9 documents at this time?

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

11 MR. MEEK: The photographer which was P25.2, as marked, is

12 D1/306. The photograph which was P26.2, as marked, is now D1/307. The

13 photograph P25.4, as marked, is now D1/308. And the last and final

14 document, which involved the witness, we'd ask that it be tendered under

15 seal, is D1/346, and those are the only documents we would ask to tender

16 through this witness, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections?

18 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honours no objection. I have the same

19 question that Judge Clark has about the date but I don't think that goes

20 to admissibility so --

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. So these four documents have been admitted into

22 evidence.

23 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, are we going to have the next witness or

25 we wait until next Monday? So you prefer that we have the next witness

Page 12116

1 next Monday?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, your microphone, please.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No. 15 minutes, I don't think it

4 would be worth it. But, Your Honours, I really must beg you, I'm called

5 every day from the Witness Unit, my colleague Nika dares not go home

6 because of the pressures that are brought on her from the Victims and

7 Witnesses Unit. I do not know what is going on. I do not have any

8 documents. I have not called the witnesses. I dare not think what will

9 happen. I have a witness for Monday and for Tuesday, for Wednesday, for

10 Thursday. I do not have any witnesses. I cannot call them. I'm really

11 under a major stress. I'm always very honest with you. I really am under

12 serious stress because now when I get home the first question from

13 Mrs. Pinter will be what about the decision? She has not replied to the

14 Victims and Witnesses Unit which call her every ten minutes because they

15 have to organise tickets, accommodation and so on and so forth.

16 JUDGE LIU: I see, so the next witness will be your last witness

17 for this bundle?

18 MR. KRSNIK: Yes.

19 JUDGE LIU: I see. We have received a report, medical report,

20 from the doctors in the detention unit, and we will render our decisions

21 concerning the Court recess.

22 The Trial Chamber is seized of the accused Naletilic's motion for

23 a short, reasonable recess in trial due to health considerations filed by

24 Defence of Mladen Naletilic on 27 May, 2002. There in, the Defence

25 requested a court recess for two weeks after the six witnesses who at that

Page 12117

1 time already were in The Hague, or en route to The Hague, had testified.

2 The Defence argue that such a recess was necessary because of the health

3 condition of the accused.

4 On the 30th May, 2002, Defence counsel for Mr. Naletilic raised

5 the issue of a court recess again during the hearing. Defence counsel for

6 Naletilic on this occasion also informed the Trial Chamber that he was not

7 able to bring any witnesses for the first week of June.

8 The Trial Chamber responded that they were seized of the written

9 motion and that they were waiting the medical report on Mr. Naletilic's

10 state of health before making their decision.

11 On the 30th of May, 2002, the Prosecution also filed a response to

12 the accused Naletilic's motion for short, reasonable recess in trial due

13 to health considerations, submitting that in absence of specific

14 information on the current status of Mr. Naletilic's health, the

15 Prosecution takes no position on the motion. At the same time, the

16 Prosecution expressed their concern about the general time frame for

17 Defence case and the effect that a two week recess would have on the

18 progress of the trial.

19 In the meantime, the Trial Chamber has received the medical

20 report. The Chamber notes that the report clearly submits that recent

21 diagnostics do not indicate any deterioration of Mr. Naletilic's medical

22 condition. It further submits that Mr. Naletilic does not show any signs

23 of exhaustion or fatigue that would not be treatable by the medication he

24 has been prescribed. The medical report concludes that there is no reason

25 to suggest a court recess would improve the current state of

Page 12118

1 Mr. Naletilic's health in any way. The medical officer of the

2 detention unit further ensured that -- assured the Chamber in his report

3 that he would immediately inform the Chamber if any break was needed for

4 medical reasons in the trial. On the basis of the medical report

5 received, the Trial Chamber is not satisfied that the application of the

6 Defence to have a two-week court recess for medical reasons has any

7 merit. The motion of Defence for Naletilic for a two-week court recess,

8 filed on 27th May, 2002, and restated on 30th May, 2002, is therefore

9 rejected.

10 However, the Trial Chamber is now faced with the fact that Defence

11 for Mr. Naletilic is apparently unable to bring any Defence witnesses for

12 the first week of June. The Chamber wishes to express its disappointment

13 about this failure of the Defence to fulfil their duty for the expeditious

14 administration of the Defence case. The Chamber further wishes to remind

15 the Defence that it is the key responsibility of the Defence to arrange

16 for the appearance of their witnesses before this Trial Chamber.

17 Due to regrettable mismanagement of the Defence case at this

18 stage, the Chamber sees no option to continue the proceedings in the first

19 week of June. The Chamber has therefore decided to adjourn the

20 proceedings after we hear the last witness, and the trial will resume on

21 Monday, 10 June, 2002.

22 However, the Defence is herewith explicitly warned that this

23 failure to provide Defence witness of the first week of June will not

24 extend the deadline that has been set for the close of the Defence case

25 for Mr. Naletilic. This ruling will apply, according to the -- to all the

Page 12119

1 potential future failures of the Defence to bring their witnesses

2 according to the Court schedule, unless the Defence can show legitimate

3 reasons for their failure to appropriately organise their case.

4 Finally, we further order the Defence for Mr. Naletilic to provide

5 the Prosecution and the Chamber with the list of the next five or ten

6 witnesses, and the protective measures applied for, with regard to these

7 witnesses before next Tuesday -- before next Thursday, that is 6 May,

8 2002. Sorry, 6 June.

9 It is so decided. We will resume on Monday, next week.

10 Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I ask you just for

12 one more thing? The detention doctor may not give a qualified response

13 concerning the state of health of my client. He is not a cardiologist.

14 He is not an expert on these severe illnesses, perhaps within seven days

15 we could have an expert opinion, because we would rather that we do not

16 base our decisions on the opinions of someone qualified, that is I do not

17 know, perhaps he is qualified. I'm a layman. But I think we must have

18 independent experts and doctors, because if we make a mistake, and then it

19 affects my client's state, then it would be very bad. I believe that the

20 report should have been drawn by a specialist, an independent doctor,

21 thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: Are you on the same issue or a different matter?

23 MR. MEEK: Completely different matter.

24 JUDGE LIU: Let me respond to Mr. Krsnik first.

25 Mr. Krsnik, in our decisions concerning the health of your client,

Page 12120

1 we have already decided that your client should be examined by expert

2 doctors on his conditions. This Trial Chamber cares very much about the

3 health conditions of your client, and whenever he feels not well, he just

4 draws our attention during the proceedings. As before, we will give the

5 request from your client, a favourable consideration. In the meantime,

6 this Trial Chamber, as I said before, has to act according to the medical

7 report. I hope you could understand that.

8 Yes, Mr. Meek?

9 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President. Just a short question. I

10 believe I know the answer. Yesterday, Your Honours ruled that on

11 exhibits, which are not tendered orally, we have three days. I assume

12 those are working days, because if we get a document on a Thursday, it

13 would have to be filed by Friday otherwise.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I believe so.

15 MR. MEEK: Thank you.

16 JUDGE LIU: Generally speaking, I hope we could get a response in

17 a week.

18 MR. MEEK: Thank you.

19 JUDGE LIU: On that situation I gave you three days just to

20 shorten the time period, to speed up our proceedings.

21 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honour. I assumed they were working

22 days. I have one for Mr. Bender, I did not get filed today because of

23 night court. So perhaps I could do it Monday.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, in this situation, it's allowed, you can file it

25 on Monday.

Page 12121

1 MR. MEEK: Thank you.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may sit down. Having said that, we will

3 rise until next Monday.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

5 6.57 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

6 the 3rd day of June, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.