1 Wednesday, 19 June 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.
9 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, if it please the Court, may I address
10 the Court for a moment?
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
12 MR. MEEK: We raised an issue last night at the end of the hearing
13 in regards to the amount of time for cross-examination as direct
14 examination. I have, if the usher would help me, a copy of a ruling this
15 Trial Chamber made on the 10th day of June, for the record, page 12248,
16 lines 13 through 23.
17 Give them to everybody. Thank you.
18 While the usher is passing those out, Your Honour, that was the
19 witness Mr. Pasalic. In that ruling, Your Honour, Mr. President, as you
20 can well see, starting at line 13 and ending at line 23, starting line 14,
21 the second sentence, "But as a principle in this trial, we will give equal
22 time to the direct examination as to the cross-examination." That is the
23 most recent ruling, and we believe that is the ruling of this Trial
24 Chamber. I understand Your Honours were going to make a decision this
25 morning -- perhaps you've already made your decision -- but I wanted to
1 have you bear that in mind. We would like to have rules that we can abide
2 by and that don't change daily or weekly.
3 Number 2, for the future -- this issue is passed now with this
4 witness. In regards to the issue brought up yesterday concerning his
5 accidental wounding or killing of a man in a restaurant, and in answer to
6 Judge Clark's question, when Falk Simang was on the stand, the issue we
7 were raising was the fact that Falk Simang not only killed people but he
8 robbed them. Robbery is a crime involving truth and veracity whereas
9 accidental killing is not. This issue may come back up in future
10 witnesses, and I'm just asking the Court to take notice of that. Thank
12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, thank you very much to draw our
13 attention to the ruling made by this Trial Chamber on this very issue.
14 Yes, Mr. Stringer, I apologise for not allowing you to take the
15 floor yesterday afternoon because of the time limit. Now, this Trial
16 Chamber would like to hear the views from the Prosecution on this very
17 issue. You may have the floor.
18 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President. On the broader issue of
19 time to be allowed for cross-examination, Mr. Scott is going to address
20 the Trial Chamber on that. I'm going to limit myself simply to responding
21 to the last point raised by counsel, that is the cross-examination as to
22 the incident in the restaurant.
23 As the Trial Chamber will recall, after establishing with the
24 witness that the event in fact took place, I went directly to what is the
25 relevant -- the relevance of the question, which was the extent to which
1 he was assisted or the extent to which Mr. Naletilic intervened on his
2 behalf, which, in our view, would have raised an issue as to his
3 credibility, frankly speaking, his willingness to come, appear before the
4 Trial Chamber and lie about Mr. Naletilic's position within the Convicts
5 Battalion based on any intervention that Mr. Naletilic may have made on
6 his behalf in respect of that incident. So it does go to credibility.
7 And if there wasn't a tie-in along those lines, I doubt that I would have
8 raised the issue at all.
9 And I believe, Mr. President, Mr. Scott can raise -- or address
10 you on the other matter.
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.
12 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I've raised this matter with the
13 Chamber before, respectfully, to you and Judge Diarra and Judge Clark. We
14 are increasingly concerned on behalf of the Prosecution with finishing
15 this part of the Defence case. We are also very concerned, frankly, about
16 the application of any artificial limits -- what we would consider,
17 respectfully, artificial limits on an effective cross-examination. Let's
18 be transparent: It is very easy for these Defence witnesses, who have
19 access, Your Honour, to a whole category of witnesses and persons who,
20 frankly, the OTP does not have access to. They can trot HVO insiders
21 through here day after day, saying all sorts of things. And it will be
22 our position, it is our position - and again I'm going to be perfectly
23 transparent - partisan witnesses who will come in here and we believe say
24 all numbers of things to defend Mr. Naletilic based on past loyalty, past
25 close association, based on common political views, based on current
1 associations and events going on outside The Hague; all those matters
2 require time to fully ventilate. It is one thing for the -- excuse me,
3 I'm on -- excuse me.
4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you have to be very polite until
6 Mr. Scott finishes his argument. He is addressing the Court, not you.
7 You have to understand that.
8 Yes, Mr. Scott.
9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm sure Mr. Krsnik will object
10 strongly to my comments, and I expect him to, but I'm going to make this
11 very clear to the Chamber this morning and will continue to in the days
12 ahead, as necessary. It is very easy to bring a witness in here, ask a
13 few questions, whether it's a 20 minute direct -- "Was Mr. Naletilic ever
14 the commander of the KB?" That takes about 30 seconds to ask. "Did you
15 ever see him on a battlefield?"
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down, please.
17 MR. SCOTT: That takes about 30 seconds to ask. "Did you ever
18 hear him make an anti-Muslim statement?" That takes about 30 seconds to
19 ask. The Defence ask those questions, they sit down, and I suppose -- is
20 the cross-examination then going to be limited to three minutes? It takes
21 more time, Your Honours, especially with hostile witnesses who we've never
22 deposed, we have never seen this witnesses until they walk into this
23 courtroom, we have no prior statements because we have been provided no
24 disclosure in this case, none. It takes time. And let me respectfully
25 submit to the Chamber it is in your interest - I mean that with all
1 respect - it is your interest that this evidence is fully ventilated. You
2 will have the difficult, as you well know, responsibility of writing a
3 judgement in this case. Respectfully, Your Honours, you will not be
4 assisted in doing so if this evidence is not and these witnesses are not
5 fully ventilated. I am very concerned. I think we are entering a
6 dangerous phase in this case in a number of respects, and the Prosecution,
7 as we've said before -- I may not get on my feet and raise my voice the
8 way Mr. Krsnik does and then repeatedly have to apologise to this Chamber
9 for my conduct, but I can assure the Chamber the Prosecution feels just as
10 strongly about these matters and just as strongly about receiving a fair
11 trial, and that the Prosecutor receive a fair trial, the international
12 community that we represent receives a fair trial, and that the victims of
13 these alleged crimes receive a fair trial.
14 In order to receive a fair trial and to assist this Chamber in
15 reaching a proper judgement - good or bad for the Prosecution but a proper
16 judgement - this evidence must be fully ventilated and I ask the Chamber
17 not to impose -- not to be quick to impose artificial limits on effective
19 I also want to mention to the Chamber a couple of other points.
20 Your Honour, I know it's taking time but we view these as highly important
21 matters, highly important. In terms of the cross-examination of
22 Prosecution witnesses, we did a very quick search of just the first few
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down, please, Mr. Scott.
25 MR. SCOTT: There were at least nine witnesses, off the top, the
1 cross-examination, was longer than the direct examination. In terms of
2 the Defence -- I'm going to tie this in now, Your Honour, to the Defence
3 request for breaks before and after the depositions. The long and short
4 of the two motions is they want a break before the depositions and another
5 break after the depositions. To some degree -- I want to be very careful
6 in what I say. To some degree we would not oppose that, all other things
7 being equal, but there is the rub. We do not agree to any breaks and we
8 will oppose any breaks to the extent that it prejudices the Prosecution's
9 ability to deal with this case.
10 Now, it's up to the Defence to call their witnesses and put on
11 their case. That's their prerogative. We understand that. But frankly,
12 Your Honour, it's our position, respectfully, if the Defence wants to take
13 ten weeks to call about 18 witnesses, many long background witnesses, many
14 repetitive witnesses on the referendum in 1992, and they find themselves
15 caught short on time at the end, that's their judgement, that's the
16 decisions that they made. But I object, and on the behalf of the
17 Prosecution team, Mr. Stringer, myself, Mr. Bos, Mr. Poriouvaev, object to
18 the Prosecution case being prejudiced by rushing at the end of this to
19 finish the Defence case because of the time considerations that they have
20 raised. They call all the witnesses, these long witnesses who went on for
21 days that they wanted to call. And we will object to any breaks in the
22 trial schedule which creates a pressure to finish the case which then in
23 turn creates a pressure on the Prosecution not to be able to effectively
24 cross-examine these Defence witnesses.
25 I repeat what I said a few moments ago: I am very concerned that
1 we are approaching a very dangerous phase in this case. Dangerous to
2 fairness to both parties, danger to getting at the truth. And some of the
3 issues that we are going to raise with these next witnesses are going to
4 be important, but they are not susceptible to short treatment. I submit
5 respectfully, if the Chamber does not hear some of this information, you
6 will be poorly served. And you will be making -- ultimately making
7 judgements without having important information available to. Thank you,
8 Mr. President.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, continuing with the motions filed by the Defence
10 counsel on the matter of the break, Mr. Scott, are you going to submit us
11 with a written response on this issue?
12 MR. SCOTT: If you wish, I will, of course, Mr. President, but I
13 can tell you right now the written response -- I'll take the transcript
14 and it will be the comments that I've just made. We are opposed to any
15 breaks before or after the deposition to the extent they create an unfair
16 pressure on the Prosecution.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Well, Mr. Krsnik, you have to be
18 very concise to present your points. Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Yes, I
20 know I have to be very concise and I know from the beginning, since I
21 first came to this Tribunal, I've been listening about the fairness, about
22 the equal treatment, I've been listening about the international
23 community, as if I were not a member of this international community, as
24 if the international community is not concerned if there are delusions and
25 there are violations, if there is deceit, and as if it is not going to be
1 concerned if the Prosecution is resorting to means which are not fair,
2 which are not allowed. And the Defence has every reason to doubt that
3 that is the case, and it has already witnessed that. It has been saying
4 that before this Chamber for a number of months now. My learned friends,
5 Prosecutors, cannot make any rules about anything; it is only the Chamber
6 that can do that. My learned friend always calls upon one and only thing,
7 and insists on him having more rights than anybody else. That cannot be
9 Your Honours, yesterday I showed you a clipping from the
10 newspaper, and it was a striking example -- I didn't want to waste much
11 more time on that, but the question is how come that the Sarajevo media
12 can have an expert testimony a month before the witness actually appears
13 before the Court? How come journalists can come by the names of our
14 witnesses? How and why are newspaper articles printed after every
15 witness, Defence witness, we have here? We have proof, and Mr. Scott
16 recognised it to me when somebody said -- when I asked him whether he
17 spoke to a journalist and he said yes, but he didn't want to give it to me
18 in writing, although he did confirm it verbally to me. Mr. Scott behaves,
19 together with the Prosecution, as if it was impossible to lose a case. It
20 is not about a victory or a defeat. It is about fairness and justice.
21 Mr. Scott wants -- is telling us, "What I say is the truth, what others
22 say is -- raises ground for suspicion." How and with what right does he
23 today comment upon the things that he is going to be able to present in
24 his final letter, brief? How dares he judge the testimonies of the
25 witnesses who have not even appeared before this Court yet? Who gives him
1 this right?
2 Yes, Your Honours, honourable Mr. President, if anybody was to be
3 happy if the rules were equal and served fairness, so if anybody were to
4 be happy if that was true, then it would be me, but I cannot confirm that
5 this fairness, this equal treatment, the equality of rules, exists. I'm
6 going to say this openly, and I have the feeling in this courtroom -- not
7 in this court -- not in this courtroom because I respect the efforts of
8 this Trial Chamber and I appreciate your sense of justice and your sense
9 of trying to be fair to everybody, but walking around this Tribunal,
10 tending to my business, I can say this publicly, that this Tribunal either
11 is, or is perceived by the Prosecution, as belonging to the Prosecution.
12 All the rest of us are not very welcome here.
13 Your Honours, I'm asking you now -- obviously you don't know
14 everything that is happening beyond these walls, behind our backs. My
15 witnesses have come from Herzegovina very, very disturbed and distressed
16 because the investigators are calling them for interviews on the request
17 of this Prosecution, and we said at the beginning that we should not
18 communicate with each other's witnesses. So we from the Defence should
19 not communicate with Prosecution witnesses and vice versa. Why is this
20 being done? To intimidate the witnesses. Because it seems that Mr. Scott
21 cannot face the feeling of maybe facing a defeat in this case. The
22 investigators who invited these witnesses for interviews, my Defence
23 interviews -- and this is a serious matter. Your Honours, I've been
24 suffering that for two years now, and nobody is there to help me. When I
25 say something before this Trial Chamber, the answer is, "Okay," but that
1 is overlooked. The same thing happened when Mr. Scott uttered the name of
2 a protected witness. He apologised but that was all. Okay. I understand
3 that to err is human, but still, it was a big mistake.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you made very serious allegations
5 against the Prosecutor, especially Mr. Scott. If you have some evidence,
6 we would like to have it, but now is not the time for this kind of
7 argument. I understand that on many points, on many areas, there is no
8 agreement between the two parties, but right now we have a witness waiting
10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. This is exactly
11 my concern. I have seven witnesses waiting here and I believe that this
12 Honourable Court understands the difference. Background witnesses require
13 more time, and I want to bring this case to an end according to your
14 decision on the beginning of depositions, and we have determined that our
15 witnesses would be background witnesses, both for the indictment as well
16 as for the allegations presented before this courtroom. These are my
17 witnesses, Defence witnesses. I will take 40 times to examine them, and
18 my learned friends from the Prosecution have the right to cross-examine
19 them. I have about 15 more witnesses to examine within the next eight
20 days before the end of depositions. All the witnesses are ready, and if
21 somebody is asking for some new time, for more time, then we would be
22 talking about inconsistency because there have been 20 of your rulings in
23 the past to the effect that the cross-examination can only last as long as
24 the examination-in-chief.
25 And as for my allegations, Your Honours, that I have just
1 proposed, I am going to invite the witness who was told that this was the
2 last opportunity for him to appear before the Tribunal, the witness
3 replied, "I'm going to come to the Tribunal and let the Prosecution
4 examine me there." Many of my witnesses have said that. And you saw the
5 evidence, the article, from the newspaper. Doesn't that call for an
6 investigation? How did that reach the newspapers? Does it not call for
7 an investigation to investigate the relationship between the Defence
8 witnesses and the Prosecution? I am preparing a study about the
9 government of Bosnia and Herzegovina in which I'm going to describe
10 everything in that broad study, as per your request, as per your very
11 justified request, Your Honours. I've already pointed out to an
12 inadmissible relationship of the interested parties and very subjective
13 secret services which are very, very, very interested in the outcome of
14 the cases before this Trial Chamber, and here, nobody dares say whether
15 this is just, whether this is fair. Are they really interested in
16 justice? Aren't they going to be detrimental for the international
18 Thank you. That will be all from me.
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric? You have to understand we are under
20 time pressure.
21 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
22 understand that we are all under time constraints, but this is not the
23 Krsnik case but this is the case against Mr. Naletilic and Mr. Martinovic.
24 Therefore I am allowed to say at least two sentences and I will say them.
25 Our learned friends from the Prosecution are entitled to their
1 position, and nobody has the right to deny them their right to their
2 position. That's what the procedure is for. The procedure is everything.
3 And above the procedure, there is nothing but the sky. That is a very
4 well-known statement by a French philosopher. In order to respect this
5 procedure, we are asked to be consistent, so the consistency has to be
6 abided by the Prosecution as well. A certain while ago, our colleagues
7 complained that they were under pressure because they didn't have the time
8 to prepare for their cross-examination; they did not -- they were not
9 provided with the names of witnesses in time; they do not have the
10 sequence of witnesses. Now, when the Defence is asking for the minimum of
11 tolerance, when they are -- it provides them with the lists of witnesses,
12 when we have problems with the transportation -- the 15th is the last day
13 for the depositions. After that, the first flight out of Mostar is on
14 Wednesday. The Prosecution says that the pressure on time, the burden of
15 that time, is on them, but they have more time than us. They are not
16 consistent. Who has to suffer from the pressure of time most? It is our
17 clients who are in gaol and they have asked their Defence counsels to
18 prepare the defence as best as they can. This is our case, our part of
19 the case, Your Honours. You're going to issue the ruling according to
20 your conscience, according to your profession, and we are never going to
21 object to that ruling. We will not have the break, but I am asking
22 everybody to respect the procedure. I'm asking everybody to consider --
23 to be consistent. Our learned friend Scott was very subjective and very
24 inconsistent in what he said last.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE LIU: This Trial Chamber is seized of this oral motion to
2 shorten the time of cross-examination by the Prosecution of the present
3 witness on the basis of the principle of equality of arms. We made a
4 ruling the other day that both parties will be given more or less the same
5 amount of time in conducting direct and cross-examinations. In principle,
6 we would like to adhere to this ruling. Taking into consideration that
7 principle of equality of arms should not be interpreted literally as an
8 exact amount of time used by each party in every case, the issue here is
9 whether one party is put into more disadvantaged position than the other.
10 We appreciate the efforts made by Defence counsel to speed up the
11 direct examination, which shows the full professionalism. I must say,
12 especially with that expert witness, the Defence case was put clearly in
13 the six points of the conclusion of the expert witness's statement. And
14 Mr. Krsnik did well by drawing our attention to certain points instead of
15 lengthy and repetitive direct examination. This practice should be
16 encouraged. It is not only the right of the accused to have a fair and
17 expeditious trial, it is also the requirement of the interests of justice
18 to move faster. To be fair, and out of the interests of justice, in this
19 situation, the other party will have a little more time for the
20 cross-examination of the expert witness.
21 Since the current witness, as Mr. Krsnik rightly put it, is the
22 first fact witness from the Convicts Battalion, and which is the subject
23 matter of this case, and Mr. Meek efficiently conducted his direct
24 examination in a very effective way which touches upon many important
25 issues, in light of the arguments put forward by both parties in yesterday
1 and today's hearing, and out of the interests of justice, after
2 consultations among the judges, we decided to give more time to the
3 Prosecution to conduct the cross-examination. By doing so, we find no
4 prejudice to both parties since they still have the opportunity to clear
5 up certain focused points in dispute in re-examinations and questions out
6 of Judges' questions. Judging from the previous cross-examination with
7 other witnesses, we have no doubt at all that the Prosecution will conduct
8 the cross-examination efficiently and effectively with a reasonable and
9 limited time period.
10 We have spent about 35 minutes on those procedural issues. I hope
11 this decision is clear.
12 Could we have the witness, please, Mr. Usher.
13 MR. MEEK: While the witness is coming in, Your Honour, could we
14 have a little guidance in how much time is going to be allowed? Is it --
15 they have already used 150 per cent of the time I used on direct. Is
16 there some time limit or do they just go on until Your Honours say stop?
17 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer, maybe you could tell us how much time
18 you are going to use.
19 MR. STRINGER: Thirty minutes maximum, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE LIU: I think it's a reasonable time, 30 minutes.
21 MR. MEEK: Just for the record, Your Honour, we would object to
22 that and we would issue and ask the Court to enter a continuing objection,
23 for the record. Thank you.
24 JUDGE LIU: Well, your objection is registered in the transcript.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 WITNESS: WITNESS NK [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Would you please sit down.
4 Did you have a good rest yesterday?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE LIU: So you are ready to continue?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.
9 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President. I'll ask the witness be
10 shown Exhibit P490, please.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Stringer: [Continued]
12 Q. Witness, I believe yesterday you testified that one place in which
13 you did participate in a military operation of the Convicts Battalion was
14 at a place called Djubrani. Do I have that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you tell us, generally or approximately, where is this place
17 Djubrani located?
18 A. Above Bijelo Polje, towards Siroki Brijeg, up in the hills.
19 Q. Sir, you've been shown an exhibit, P490. Underneath the English
20 translation, you'll see the document in your language. This operation at
21 Djubrani, did it take place in early July, 1993? Are you able to recall?
22 A. The 30th of June, 1993, until late November.
23 Q. The document in front of you, sir - you can look at the Croatian
24 language version - I'll ask you to look at the second page. You've got it
25 now. The second page of that. Does this appear to be a report issued by
1 Miljenko Lasic?
2 A. Well, his name is here, Miljenko Lasic, but I never saw any papers
3 because I never had anything to do with papers. I never saw this before.
4 This is the first time that I see it.
5 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Lasic was the commander of the southeast
6 Herzegovina operative zone of the HVO?
7 A. I can't recall that. I don't know.
8 Q. Yesterday, sir, you testified that the Convicts Battalion did not
9 have any Bofors. I want to direct your attention to the first page of
10 this document, please. The Croatian language version, if you have it.
11 The second paragraph under the word "Report" says, "Last night we sent a
12 14.5 PAM mounted on a vehicle to Djubrani at the request of the commander
13 of the forward command post and 80 pieces of 40 millimetre L60 ammunition
14 for a Bofors gun in Tuta's unit." Now, sir, this document is dated two
15 days after the time you just testified you were in Djubrani. Isn't it
16 true that you were in Djubrani, sir, with a Bofors gun of the Kaznjenicka
18 A. All we had, a Browning 12.7, I never saw any Bofors up there.
19 Q. The reference here to Tuta's unit, sir, that's the Kaznjenicka
20 Bojna, isn't it? The Convicts Battalion?
21 A. Yes. But we didn't have a Bofors; 12.7 Browning.
22 MR. STRINGER: The next document.
23 Q. Before we move to the next document, sir, just let me ask you, you
24 testified -- I want to make sure I understand your testimony correctly
25 from yesterday. You said that you were working a 12.7 millimetre Browning
1 gun. When you were doing that, were you working together with Mr. Simang
2 and Mr. Mrachacz? When you were -- I'll ask the question again. The
3 Browning gun, did you operate that gun together with Mr. Simang and Mr.
5 A. Yes. But it's not a gun. It's an anti-aircraft weapon, Browning
6 12.7. They were assisting me.
7 Q. And when they were assisting you, you were communicating with your
8 commanders through the use of a Motorola?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When you were positioned in the Mostar area, sir, did you target
11 any of the mosques that were in Mostar?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Were you ever ordered to fire on mosques in Mostar?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you ever fire on mosques in Mostar with the Bofors gun?
16 A. We never had it so how could I fire from it?
17 Q. You testified that on the 9th of May, 1993, you were sent to a
18 place close to Mostar with Simang and Mrachacz; is that correct?
19 A. Yes. To the hill called Galac.
20 Q. From Galac hill, is it possible to see down into the city of
22 A. Yes, but not all of it.
23 Q. You were sent there, I take it, with other members of the Convicts
25 A. We were only three of us, but below us was the Siroki Brijeg
2 Q. So other units from Siroki Brijeg also went to Mostar on the 9th
3 of May?
4 A. They were around on Galac, manning the lines in case the BH Army
5 attempted to break through.
6 Q. What time of day were you contacted by Mr. Andabak and sent to
7 Galac hill on the 9th of May? What time was it, if you recall?
8 A. At what time? In the morning, around 8.00, is when he called me
9 and told me to go out to the Galac hill.
10 Q. What did he say was happening in Mostar at the time?
11 A. Didn't tell me anything. He simply told me we should go to the
12 reserve position in case the line was broken through.
13 Q. Were other members of the Convicts Battalion sent also to Mostar
14 that morning?
15 A. No. As far as I can recall, we were the only three who went
17 Q. Do you know whether -- have you ever heard of the ATG Baja
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Their commander was Predrag Mandic, Lija?
21 A. Yes, perhaps.
22 Q. They were -- they didn't stay in Siroki Brijeg, sir, they stayed
23 in the Heliodrom complex; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you ever see Predrag Mandic in Siroki Brijeg?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who would he meet with in Siroki Brijeg?
3 A. Well, with everybody.
4 Q. Was the ATG Baja Kraljevic associated with the Convicts Battalion
5 in Siroki Brijeg?
6 A. No. It was a different unit. They were at the Heliodrom and we
7 were in Siroki Brijeg.
8 MR. STRINGER: I'll ask the witness be shown Exhibit P471, please.
9 Q. Witness, do you know a place called Boksevica?
10 A. I don't.
11 Q. You don't recall being involved in any combat operations in
12 Boksevica around the 21st of June, 1993?
13 A. No.
14 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Usher, I can see the top couple of pages is the
15 exhibit. I think you've got two exhibits there. The one underneath, the
16 list, is not the one I'm asking for. Just go down to the dividers there.
17 Q. Sir, this is a combat report regarding the location Boksevica. Do
18 you know whether Mladen Naletilic was at that location on the -- on or
19 about the 21st of June, 1993?
20 A. I don't remember. What might he be doing at Boksevica? I don't
21 remember. This is the first time I see this.
22 MR. STRINGER: I'll ask the witness be shown Exhibit P611.
23 Q. While that exhibit is coming, sir, let me ask you whether you
24 ever were present during military operations in a place called Rastani,
25 just north of Mostar.
1 A. No.
2 Q. Not in August of 1993 or September of 1993?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Take a moment to look at this document, sir. Do you know who
5 Bruno Stojic is or was at the time?
6 A. I only heard about Bruno Stojic on television. I never saw him.
7 Q. Was he a high level official of the HVO in Mostar?
8 A. I do not know that. This is the first time I lay my eyes on these
9 papers. I don't know that.
10 Q. Could I ask you to read paragraph number 1 of that document to
12 Do you know if other members of the Convicts Battalion were
13 involved in combat operations in Rastani in September of 1993?
14 A. No, I do not know that.
15 Q. Isn't it true, sir, that as indicated in this document, Tuta was
16 the commander of the Convicts Battalion in September of 1993?
17 A. No.
18 Q. It's your testimony, sir, that Mr. Andabak was the commander?
19 A. Andabak was the commander and Zeljko Vukoja, after Cikota was
21 Q. It's your testimony, sir, that Mr. Andabak was the highest ranking
22 member of the Convicts Battalion?
23 A. Yes, but he had some health problems; sugar.
24 Q. He had to take insulin for diabetes?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. During the campaign against the Serbs in 1992, do you recall if he
2 also had a drinking problem?
3 A. I do not remember that. All I know is that he had problems with
5 MR. STRINGER: I ask the witness be shown Exhibit P663.1.
6 Q. While that's coming sir, let me ask you: Did you ever see
7 Mr. Naletilic in Siroki Brijeg during 1993?
8 A. I could have seen him in Siroki Brijeg in a coffee shop or
9 somewhere, but I do not really remember it because it was nine years ago.
10 Q. Sir, the document that's in front of you relates to six prisoners
11 going to work at the Zeljko Bosnjak ATG base in Ljubuski. My question,
12 couple of questions, sir: Zeljko Bosnjak, do you know who that is? There
13 was a man named Zeljko Bosnjak, wasn't there?
14 A. Yes, but I do not know the gentleman nor did I ever see this paper
16 Q. Did Zeljko Bosnjak, was he killed in operations, combat
17 operations, in Rastani in the late summer of 1993?
18 A. I wouldn't know that.
19 Q. Looking back, sir, at this document, doesn't it appear, sir, that
20 the typewritten part of this document, next to the stamp, indicates that
21 the commander of the Convicts Battalion was Mladen Naletilic, Tuta?
22 MR. MEEK: Your Honour?
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?
24 MR. MEEK: May it please the Court, my only objection is that this
25 witness has already testified he's never seen this document, the document
1 speaks for itself, and I think on those grounds, the question is
2 irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent.
3 JUDGE LIU: You said the document speaks for itself. The document
4 says that your client, Mr. Naletilic, is the commander of that Convicts
5 Battalion. Now, in this case, I would like to allow the Prosecutor to
6 continue this question so that your witness will have an opportunity to
7 deny or to agree with the accusations from the Prosecutor. I think it's
9 Mr. Stringer, you may proceed.
10 MR. STRINGER:
11 Q. Sir, the handwritten signature on this document, is that the
12 signature of Ivan Andabak?
13 A. I do not know. I do not know that. This is the first time that I
14 see this paper.
15 Q. So if Mr. Andabak had been signing orders on behalf of
16 Mr. Naletilic, you wouldn't know about that?
17 A. I never saw any papers at all, nor anyone ever gave me any papers.
18 I do not know who signed them. This is the first time I see this paper.
19 MR. STRINGER: Let me ask the witness to be shown Exhibit P601.
20 Q. The fact is, sir, that as a foot soldier of the Kaznjenicka Bojna,
21 it's quite possible that you would not have known the extent to which
22 Mladen Naletilic exercised control over the Convicts Battalion during
23 1993; isn't that so?
24 A. No. It is not so. He could not command it.
25 Q. Well, would you agree with me, sir, that the documents that we
1 have been reviewing here would indicate otherwise?
2 A. Well, it can say anything it likes. I never saw such documents.
3 Q. Sir, do you know if prisoners, Muslim prisoners, were made
4 available and used by members of the Convicts Battalion for labour, to
6 A. I do not know that. All I know is that there were refugees, many
7 refugees, in the students hostel in Siroki Brijeg but nobody forced them
8 to work. I know nothing about others.
9 Q. Do you know if Mr. Andabak called an order for prisoners to be
10 turned over to the Convicts Battalion, as is indicated in this document,
12 A. Well, this document can say anything it likes but I never saw any
13 document and I do not know about that.
14 Q. Did you ever see any Muslim prisoners being held at the tobacco
15 station in Siroki Brijeg during the summer of 1993?
16 A. No. I never saw a single one. Had I seen them, I would have told
17 you, but I did not. Therefore...
18 MR. STRINGER: No further questions, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek, any re-examination?
20 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour.
21 Re-examined by Mr. Meek:
22 Q. Witness NK, you testified that in 1992, Mr. Naletilic was a
23 commander or the commander, one of the commanders, of the Convicts
24 Battalion, correct?
25 A. In 1992, yes.
1 Q. During that period of time, did -- was it common or not common
2 that soldiers referred to the Convicts Battalion as "Tuta's unit"?
3 A. No. I never said that I was a member of the Tuta's unit, I always
4 said that I was in the Convicts.
5 Q. You were a member of the Convicts Battalion?
6 A. Why, yes, I was a member of the Convicts Battalion but I didn't
7 have to say that I was Tuta's. Nobody said that.
8 Q. Perhaps you have misunderstood my question. My question is not
9 whether you or other members of the Convicts Battalion referred to the
10 Convicts Battalion as Tuta's unit. My question was: Did other soldiers,
11 other people in the public, people who were not members of the Convicts
12 Battalion, did they refer to the Convicts Battalion as Tuta's unit? If
13 you know.
14 A. Why, there were all sorts of stories. I mean, people who had
15 never seen Tuta were talking about that, about that unit, but they had
16 never been there and it only means...
17 Q. You also testified, sir, about an individual by the name of
18 Predrag Mandric [phoen] - and I may have mispronounced that name - also
19 known as Lija?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You indicated that you would see Lija in Siroki Brijeg in 1993
22 from time to time; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what kind of occasions that you
25 would see Lija in Siroki Brijeg?
1 A. I would see him in coffee bars, sitting with people, with girls.
2 Q. Witness NK, do you have any personal knowledge as to where Lija
3 actually resided, what town or city?
4 A. In Siroki Brijeg, in Lise.
5 MR. MEEK: Could the witness be shown P601, please.
6 Q. Is it your testimony that you do not -- you've never seen Ivan
7 Andabak's signature so that you cannot testify whether he signed that
9 A. I can't say because I never saw such documents nor did anybody
10 show them to me.
11 Q. Can you read the signature on that document, P601, please.
12 A. I don't know what Andabak's signature looks like. I did not have
13 to see it, I did never see it.
14 Q. But can you read the signatures, please.
15 A. Yes. "Andabak," what is handwritten could be "Andabak," but I'm
16 not certain. I never saw it before.
17 MR. MEEK: Your Honours, I have no further questions.
18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Seric? Thank you very much. Any
19 questions from the Judges? Yes, Judge Clark.
20 Questioned by the Court:
21 JUDGE CLARK: Witness NK, could you help me with this: Could you
22 describe in a little more detail the circumstances in which Mr. Naletilic
23 retired from being commander of the KB.
24 A. I don't know much about that. I only know that he had some health
25 problems, and that's why he retired.
1 JUDGE CLARK: It appears to me, Witness NK, that yesterday when
2 you were asked, you actually remembered when he retired and I just
3 wondered why the date came to mind so readily.
4 A. Because I was there. I live there. And I told you that it was
5 approximately, either in July or August, 1992. I can't actually tell you
6 the exact date.
7 JUDGE CLARK: And that's all you can assist the Chamber with, just
8 that you lived in Siroki Brijeg and it was approximately the summer of
9 1992? You know nothing else? Was there a ceremony? Was there a handing
10 over? Did you become aware that your commander had changed? Nothing like
12 A. No. There were no ceremonies at all. I don't know of any. If I
13 could assist you, I would do that very gladly. What I told you -- what I
14 knew I told you.
15 JUDGE CLARK: How did you become aware who your new commander was?
16 A. I learned from Mario Hrkac, Cikota, the late Cikota.
17 JUDGE CLARK: What did you learn from him?
18 A. That he was the commander.
19 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you, Witness NK.
20 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judges' questions? Mr. Meek?
21 MR. MEEK: No, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer?
23 MR. STRINGER: No, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
25 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to help
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. You were very kind.
3 JUDGE LIU: We wish you a very pleasant journey back home. When
4 the usher pulls down the blinds, he will show you out of the room.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE LIU: Are there any documents to tender, Mr. Meek?
8 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, I'm happy to announce there are no
9 documents to tender.
10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Stringer?
11 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I do have documents to tender.
12 Could I provide that list to the Trial Chamber at the end of the upcoming
13 break? I cut out a lot of documents from the outline so I'm not sure what
14 in fact I do want to tender.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I also understand that some of the documents you
16 used have been admitted already --
17 MR. STRINGER: That's correct.
18 JUDGE LIU: -- so there is no need to submit those documents once
20 Yes, Madam Registrar?
21 THE REGISTRAR: If I may assist, I believe 931A and 931B were the
22 only two tendered.
23 MR. STRINGER: In that case, Mr. President, we would offer 931A,
24 931B. I'll double check over the break but I have no reason to think that
25 the registrar is wrong on that.
1 JUDGE LIU: Well, as for those two documents, are there any
2 objections? Because they are just a document.
3 MR. MEEK: While they are bringing the witness, may I look at the
4 documents for a moment, Your Honour? Those aren't translated. I
5 understood yesterday those were going to be translated.
6 MR. STRINGER: We do have a translation that we can distribute.
7 JUDGE LIU: So we'll admit those two documents after we receive
8 the translation.
9 MR. MEEK: There will be no objection to those documents, Your
11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
12 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I think for the record, those two
13 which are the HVO identification card need to be under seal to protect the
14 identity of the witness.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
16 MR. MEEK: That's correct, Your Honour. I agree.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Thank you very much. Could we have the next
18 witness, please. Are there any protective measures?
19 [The witness entered court]
20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for not
21 replying promptly. I had to sort of rearrange my stuff here. We are
22 asking for the same protective measures as for the previous witness,
23 that's face distortion and a pseudonym.
24 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Bos, are there any objections?
25 MR. BOS: No objections, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Krsnik, your request for the
2 protective measures is granted.
3 Good morning -- yes, Mr. Meek?
4 MR. MEEK: I apologise. Your Honour, before this witness takes
5 the stand, I have for Madam Registrar, I apologise this morning, I need to
6 give her -- thank you.
7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
8 Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
10 JUDGE LIU: Would you please --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
12 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration, please.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: WITNESS NL
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may sit down, please.
18 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Well, my
20 break was rather short. I will continue the examination. I will try to
21 be very specific and very efficient.
22 Examined by Mr. Krsnik:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
24 A. Good morning.
25 Q. I know that this is the first time you find yourself in such a
1 situation. We will give you some time to relax, to -- can you see the
2 screen in front of you? Can you please follow the dot. When you see the
3 dot stops -- as we speak the same language, we want to make the work of
4 our interpreters easier. The most important thing is that my question and
5 your answer do not overlap. Please wait before you start answering.
6 Now you will be given a piece of paper on which you will find your
7 name. Don't utter it, don't pronounce it, but if your name indeed is on
8 the paper, just say yes.
9 A. Yes. Whatever it says here is correct.
10 Q. Can you please briefly tell the Chamber the date of birth, the
11 place of birth, without saying your name. When were you born and where?
12 That's my first question.
13 A. I was born on 31 May, 1964, in Risovac village, Jablanica
15 Q. Tell the Chamber where you live now, today.
16 A. I live in Siroki Brijeg.
17 Q. Can you tell the Chamber for how long have you lived in Siroki
19 A. I have lived in Siroki Brijeg since 1989.
20 Q. Where did you live before that? In which town, or in another
22 A. Before that, I lived in my village, and in 1988 and part of 1989,
23 I was in Western Germany.
24 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you some very specific questions and I'm
25 asking for very specific answers from you. I shall focus mostly on 1993,
1 and now I will first ask you a very general question: Were you in a
2 military unit?
3 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, it's time for the break.
4 MR. KRSNIK: Yes, sorry.
5 JUDGE LIU: And if you turn to the substantive matters in your
6 questions, we had better break here.
7 MR. KRSNIK: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE LIU: We will resume at quarter to 11.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik. Please continue.
12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
13 Q. Before the break, I put you a question but I'm going to repeat it.
14 In 1992, and 1993, were you a member of any military unit in the HVO? And
15 if the answer is yes, which unit was that? You don't have to wait that
17 A. I was a member of the Siroki Brijeg Brigade.
18 Q. Witness, can you please assist this Chamber and tell them for how
19 long were you a member of the Siroki Brijeg Brigade and can you please
20 explain to the Chamber who the Siroki Brijeg Brigade was, which units were
21 there in Siroki Brijeg, and can you please clarify the situation as far as
22 you know it.
23 A. In late 1991, with the arrival of the Serbian reservists,
24 Chetniks, in the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina, units organised themselves in
25 neighbourhoods, in villages, in order to defend their homes, their
1 villages, their towns. There were a number of such units in Siroki
2 Brijeg. There was a headquarters in Siroki Brijeg. There was an infantry
3 unit and a unit of engineers.
4 Q. Excuse me for interrupting. When you say that there were several
5 battalions under the command of the headquarters, crisis headquarters of
6 Siroki Brijeg, what kind of units were they? Were they volunteers, were
7 they home guards, were they professionals?
8 A. I already said that these were voluntary home guard units which
9 were established by people themselves who gathered together, and I told
10 them [as interpreted] what their goal was, to defend their homes. Those
11 were home guards who defended at the distance of 10, 15 kilometres from
12 their own homes. In Siroki Brijeg, there was also a unit called the
13 Convicts Battalion which was active in all battlefronts in 1992.
14 Q. Who was the commander of all these units in 1992? In Siroki
15 Brijeg, that is.
16 A. In 1991 and in 1992, the commanding institution was the municipal
17 headquarters. Up to April, 1992, the commander was Mr. Zlatan Tomas; and
18 in April, Mr. Pero Cavar came and took the command of the headquarters.
19 Q. Did anybody else organise -- participate in the organisation or
20 just these people?
21 A. Yes. There were other people who were then active in the
22 municipalities. The municipal staffs were those who -- which were
23 organised as any other units. There was Mr. Mikulic, Mr. Lasic, Mr.
24 Culjak, Mr. Naletilic. I can't remember any other names.
25 Q. What was the role of Mr. Naletilic? What was his role, to your
1 knowledge, in 1992? You mentioned his name as one of the people who were
2 in the municipal Defence staff.
3 A. Yes, Mr. Naletilic was one of the men who were in charge of the
4 defence of Siroki Brijeg, and as far as I know, Mr. Naletilic was one of
5 the founders of the Convicts Battalion.
6 Q. Did he also head -- was he also heading the Convicts Battalion?
7 A. Yes. In 1992, one can say that he was the head of the Convicts
8 Battalion, together with Mr. Andabak.
9 Q. Tell me, please, were there any changes in the organisation of
10 these voluntary units during 1992 or 1993? Was it transformed into a
11 bigger unit, a bigger establishment? How did that go?
12 A. During 1992, there were some minor changes: The units grew as the
13 war went on, new people came, and these battalions existed up to the end
14 of summer, 1992, and when the direct threat for Siroki Brijeg ceased and
15 the war moved on to other areas, there was demobilisation, so the majority
16 of people were put on reserve and only one battalion remained active.
17 Another voluntary battalion that's -- battalion remained existing and
18 manned the line facing the Chetniks. And there was also the Convicts
19 Battalion that remained and it wasn't demobilised.
20 Q. Was there a Siroki Brijeg Brigade? When was it established and
21 when did it assume that name? If it existed, what kind of a unit was
23 A. I was also demobilised in either September or October, 1992, as
24 the majority of other people, and I joined another unit when the brigade
25 Mario Hrkac Cikota was formed on the 1st of July, and at that time, there
1 was no money, there were no salaries. You have to understand that.
2 Q. Did you have any duty --
3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can we please move to a private
4 session? For, just for one question?
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.
6 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry, while you're on dates, I don't believe we've
11 asked a year for the time that this witness joined the Cikota Brigade when
12 it was formed.
13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether it
14 has entered in the transcript but the witness said it clearly, that after
15 the demobilisation, he returned to the Siroki Brijeg Brigade which is now
16 named after Mario Hrkac, Cikota, and that was in July, on the 1st of July,
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises, the witness is too
20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What was the last question? Was it
22 about the zone of responsibility?
23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
24 Q. I'm sorry, I can't ask you any leading questions. Can you please
25 tell us in general terms what the Siroki Brijeg Brigade and the Convicts
1 Battalion do in 1993? Did you have lines? Where did you go? Did you
2 have a zone of responsibility? You have to tell us, I must not lead you
3 into anything.
4 A. In 1993, when I returned to the unit at the end of June or the
5 beginning of July, I can't remember the date, we assumed a zone of
6 responsibility in Djubrani, and the Siroki Brijeg Brigade was engaged
7 there until I -- up until I left it. That was the 1st of April, 1994.
8 And at the time, when I returned to the brigade, a part of the Convicts
9 Battalion was with us. That was 25 men altogether. They were there all
10 the time in the area of Djubrani as an intervention unit, and the men in
11 the Convicts Battalion went through a lot. From 1992, they had a lot more
12 experience, and our men found it much easier to be on the line when they
13 knew that they had 20 men from the Convicts Battalion with them in case of
14 an attack, in case of a line being --
15 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the witness is too fast.
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, you have to know that whatever you say
17 in this courtroom has to be translated into the other two languages. You
18 speak too fast so that the interpreters could not catch up with you. Make
19 a pause after each sentence. Yes, please continue.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. I'll try
21 to speak slower.
22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Yes, it did enter the transcript. You said Djubrani Vrdi. Where
24 is Djubrani, just briefly, and where is Vrdi, and how long was your line
25 that you manned? In either metres or kilometres, I don't know. So the
1 first question is: Where is Djubrani?
2 A. Djubrani is a village on a plateau and the general area is called
3 Raska Gora, and Djubrani is one of the villages on that plateau. Vrdi is
4 also on the same plateau and that plateau is north of Mostar. As far as
5 the length of the line, the line that we manned, it was the canyon of the
6 Neretva River, and for the most part it is rather inaccessible so there
7 was no classic line in the proper sense of the word. We manned several
8 checkpoints and as for the length of the area that was manned, I can't
9 tell you precisely, but I believe that it was six, seven to eight
10 kilometres. I can't be more precise than that.
11 Q. Did I understand you properly the Siroki Brijeg Brigade was there
12 manning this line of six, seven kilometres and the Convicts Battalion's
13 task was that in case of an attack on that line, then it would come from
14 Djubrani to intervene on that same front line? Did I understand you, that
15 that was what you said?
16 A. Yes, yes, you did. It was exactly like that.
17 Q. Tell me, why is Djubrani important? Why is that an important
18 feature and why were you there?
19 A. Djubrani, or rather that area, that front line which we manned,
20 it was the defence of both Mostar and Siroki Brijeg. It is July, and at
21 that time, there were frequent attacks of the Muslim units from the
22 directions Sobrez [phoen] and Jablanica. So basically this is it. That
23 was the defence of Siroki. Because I remember how in 1993, I remember it
24 well, and Muslim units entered and took a feature on Cabolj, that is next
25 to our brigade, and I remember well how at that time somebody said that
1 about -- that they were at a distance of 8 kilometres from Siroki Brijeg
2 as the crow flies.
3 Q. Is Djubrani a part, conditionally speaking, of the Rastani theatre
4 of war?
5 A. Rastani is a village north of Mostar which is in a field below, in
6 a valley, which is below Djubrani.
7 Q. Yes, but I mean Djubrani could be part of that front line, of that
8 defence area of the Rastani theatre?
9 A. Yes, you could put it that way.
10 Q. Very well. Thank you. You said a while ago, you mentioned
11 Mr. Mladen Naletilic. Could you tell Their Honours how long have you
12 known him, when did you meet him?
13 A. I met Mr. Naletilic in the autumn of 1991. As for my relations
14 with him, I could say that he was my father's friend mostly. We were but
15 acquaintances. However, our families have been on friendly terms from
16 before. That is, my late father and Mr. Naletilic's late father, they
17 were friends and they were pretty close.
18 Q. How often did you used to see Mr. Naletilic? And I'm talking
19 about 1993 all the time. So in 1993, how often did you see him?
20 A. Well, we met now and then. I've already said that he was my
21 father's friend and we met in Siroki Brijeg, around coffee bars, say, or
22 when I went to see my father in the village, Mr. Naletilic was often
23 there, for instance, on various holidays and on various occasions, and
24 even I know that Mr. Naletilic's children came there on some holidays.
25 And that was it.
1 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge if he held some office at that
2 time, Mr. Naletilic, in 1993? Did he hold any office? Any?
3 A. As far as I know, in 1993, Mr. Naletilic did something in the
4 municipal hall. I don't know what exactly but I know he did something in
5 the municipal hall. And this is what I heard from my late father, and
6 that is that Mr. Naletilic at that time had a company in Zagreb, precisely
7 at that time in 1993, something along those lines.
8 Q. Do you know if Mr. Naletilic had any military rank?
9 A. You mean in 1993?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. In 1993, nobody had any ranks, as far as I know. So to my
12 knowledge, Mr. Naletilic did not have any rank and I do not know that any
13 of us had any ranks.
14 Q. And now the logical question: In 1992, do you have any knowledge
15 if -- how many lads were in the Convicts -- and I call it Siroki Brijeg
16 Convicts Battalion, how many lads were in that battalion? Because I
17 believe that is its name; Siroki Brijeg Convicts Battalion, that is its
18 full name, isn't it?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. Tell us, please, how many lads were in it, who commanded them, how
21 many commanders were there? We heard here in the courtroom that there
22 were officers -- an officer in the Convicts Battalion. That is what was
23 said in this courtroom. In 1993, I mean.
24 A. In 1993, the Convicts Battalion, and I make my assessment based on
25 the number of men who were manning the front line in the area of Djubrani,
1 and there could have been 20, 25 men, and there were three shifts, which
2 means that they had some 60, 70 men. As for the commanders or officers,
3 people with ranks, there were none. I mean nobody had any rank. There
4 were people who were commanders and who came to those persons because we
5 simply had 10, 15, 20 men and they would pick out the bravest, the best
6 men from amongst them, and who in their eyes had some authority, and who
7 could therefore lead them. In 1993, the Convicts Battalion, talking
8 following the 1st of July, because the late Mario had already been killed.
9 As far as I know, it was at that time led by Ivan Andabak and Zeljko
10 Vukoja. It was the two of them, I don't know which sequence, who came
11 after whom, but there were two of them.
12 Q. Very well, thank you.
13 JUDGE LIU: Witness, you have to slow down. That's too fast for
14 the interpreters.
15 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, as the Siroki Brijeg Brigade, did you conduct any
18 operations or activities in April, 1993?
19 A. In April, 1993, I was not an active member of a unit and therefore
20 I was not assigned anywhere but my unit, or rather a part of my unit,
21 during the attack of the BH Army, part of my unit was engaged in the areas
22 of Konjic and Jablanica, and that was at Easter time, 1993.
23 Q. And now my direct question to you: Did it take part, did it
24 participate, in the action or whatever you care to call it, in the
25 conflict in April, 1993, in a place called Risovac or Sovici or Doljani?
1 Was it engaged there?
2 A. Yes. That is the conflict which I had in mind when I said it was
3 engaged in that area.
4 Q. Could you tell the Honourable Court what you know about that?
5 When was that? What happened? I will not ask you any questions, I will
6 let you tell us all that you know about it. Just go slowly. Look at this
8 A. As far as I know, that conflict happened on Palm Sunday in April,
9 1993. I came to see my father. I came for two days. That is Easter
10 falls on Sunday and the first day after Easter, after Sunday, that is
11 Monday, that is another holy day. And in my village, we have the
12 so-called Small Easter, which comes a week later. Now, and on proper
13 Easter, we all gather, but it is only the family. And when the Small
14 Easter comes, then other people also come and we go to attend the mass,
15 and after the mass, after the mass, you invite guests to your house and
16 there is a small feast. I remember how I came to see my father and that
17 was right before the weekend. It was a Friday. It was a day before the
18 attack. That is, on Friday evening, I came to my father's, and in the
19 morning, my mother woke me up - I remember that well - that there were
20 unusually many troops in the village. And I got up, got ready, dressed,
21 and went downstairs, or rather, went out into the road and stopped a
22 vehicle. And in this vehicle were the guys from my unit, from my -- the
23 unit that I belonged to in 1992, and I asked them what was that about and
24 why had they come? Because that was not the area which was covered by our
25 unit. And one of them told me that they had received an order to go to
1 the area of Sovici and Doljani because Mijat Tomic Battalion was blocked
2 there. That was the unit which was active there, that they should go up
3 there because that had been blocked, to link up with them, to see what it
4 is about, and that there was nothing in particular. That is, I wanted to
5 know because my father and my mother and my sisters and other of my
6 relatives were there, so I naturally wanted to know what that was about.
7 Q. And what did he tell you? That the BH Army had undertaken any
8 operation in those areas, Sovici, Doljani, Risovac, Jablanica? Or that
9 they had been...
10 A. There were some conflicts. There was some fighting.
11 Q. Will you please -- I have to warn you. We have to slow down.
12 A. I believe that the previous day, there was some fighting between
13 Doljani and Jablanica, and I do not know, a day or two before that, there
14 was also some fighting in the area of Konjic.
15 Q. And so you heard that and what happened then? You talked to those
16 troops and what happened then? What happened after that? Well, tell us.
17 A. I went back home, and I told my mother that it was nothing,
18 because at that time, there were frequently problems at the ABH
19 checkpoint, somebody would be stopped there and you understand there were
20 some individual things, and generally, the situation was very tense. And
21 I told my mother that it was nothing to worry about, and I was calming her
22 down, and as I was doing that, we could hear the detonations in the area
23 of Sovicka Vrata. This is from my home to Sovici.
24 Q. How far is that from your home, roughly?
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, I understand that you are eager to give
1 your testimony but you have to understand the main purpose for you to come
2 here is to help us, the Judges, to understand what happened at certain
3 periods in certain places. If you speak too fast, the interpreter could
4 not follow you and some parts of your testimony might be lost in the
5 transcript so that we could not be helped. So please make a pause after
6 each sentence and control the pace of speaking. Do you understand that?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
10 Q. I must say that I'm -- the fault rests with me because I'm a
11 professional but I also speed matters up. I start speaking faster. We
12 speak the same language and then we start talking and then the
13 interpreters cannot catch up with us.
14 The last time that you heard -- you said was that you heard some
15 detonations from the direction of Sovicka Vrata, and my last question was
16 how far was that from your house?
17 A. It is about two, two and a half kilometres away.
18 Q. Tell me, when you talked with those soldiers and when you saw
19 them, did you see Mr. Mladen Naletilic amongst them?
20 A. No. Mr. Naletilic was with his children. He had come for Easter
21 to see my father with his children. He was there.
22 Q. And you were with him all the time that day, that day when it
24 A. You mean when the attack happened? Yes.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos?
1 MR. BOS: Sorry for interrupting. Could we have the specific date
2 when he says "that day"?
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
4 JUDGE CLARK: Also, Mr. Krsnik, the last evidence that this
5 witness gave was of a conversation when he was trying to calm down his
6 mother, and suddenly Mr. Naletilic has turned up on the scene. I think
7 you have to lay the ground a bit better than that. His mother woke him
8 up, there were a lot of soldiers around, he went out and he spoke to the
9 soldiers, he came back and he calmed his mother down. Now what happened
10 after that? We heard nothing about Mr. Naletilic before that.
11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Witness, you heard Her Honour's question. Will you answer those
14 A. The question was if my unit was up there, isn't it? Or is whether
15 I recall the developments in April.
16 Q. Did you hear the question asked that -- that Her Honour asked you?
17 I mean, Mr. Mladen Naletilic, you mentioned your mother, Mr. Naletilic in
18 that. Will you shed some light on that situation. And my last question
19 was whether you saw Mr. Naletilic among those soldiers and you said, "No
20 he was at my father's." You heard Her Honour's question, so explain it;
21 the date, when was it, how was it? All that is related to Mr. Naletilic.
22 A. I said that our families -- that Mr. Naletilic was friends with my
23 father and that he often came to see him when he had an opportunity to do
24 that. And the same thing happened then, on that Easter day. Or for those
25 Easter holidays. I said that I went to see my -- that I went to my
1 father's on Easter and the first day of Easter. Mr. Naletilic came there,
2 and that I'm talking about Monday, about Easter Monday, the first day
3 after Easter. And we met at my father's. I was going to Siroki Brijeg
4 because I was about to go to work. I returned to my father's on Friday
5 evening, and Mr. Mladen Naletilic was still up there. And in the village,
6 the situation was regular. That is, troops went through. I mean,
7 naturally who communicated through that area. Men, you understand.
8 And that morning, that morning, it was Saturday, I already said
9 that my mother had woken me up and I went outside, that I halted a field
10 vehicle and there were three or four guys from my unit, I recognised them
11 in that vehicle. And I talked with them and asked them what it was all
12 about. And they told me, as I have already said, that they had received
13 an order and that the order was to go and link up with Mijat Tomic
14 Battalion which had been blocked in Doljani, and which had -- was engaged
15 in the fighting with the BH Army in the area between Doljani and
16 Jablanica, and that some men from that unit had been prevented from
17 getting towards -- from going towards Risovac and Jablanica, prevented by
18 members of the BH Army, that the BH Army had set up its front line facing
19 my village, in the areas of Borovnik and Pasije Stijene, and that it was
20 not letting anyone through. But however, that there was still no open
21 fighting, and that they had received no other order except to go there,
22 link up with that unit, and be there to help it.
23 And I returned home and I told my mother because I saw my mother
24 again. I'm telling you of course she was afraid but I told my mother what
25 I had heard from them and even in my other version, I told her that there
1 was no problem at all, that everything was all right.
2 Q. And where was Mr. Naletilic?
3 A. I think I saw Mr. Naletilic only after I entered the house.
4 Q. But it doesn't say -- you said that he had barely got up.
5 A. Yes, because he had spent the night in the house, that is what I
7 Q. That is not in the transcript. And were the children up already
8 or were they still asleep?
9 A. No, no, no, the children were not up yet.
10 Q. Tell me, and what you heard, did you tell everybody in the house
11 what you had heard?
12 A. Yes, after I entered the house, because I saw my mother in front
13 of the house. I told my father and Mr. Naletilic the whole story. I told
14 you already that the version that I gave my mother was milder.
15 Q. And how did Mr. Naletilic react to that, if you can tell us, from
16 your personal knowledge? What did do you in the house next?
17 A. Well, he was worried because of the children, first of all. That
18 was the reaction because that was the first time that fighting was
19 happening that nearby, some fighting which was not expected or planned.
20 Q. And when did you hear those detonations, sir, as you were talking
21 with your mother or after you entered the house?
22 A. No. I was still in front of the house. Before I stepped into the
24 Q. Tell me, please, now, this gun fire, the detonations stopped, or
25 what happened that day? And what did you do?
1 A. After those detonations, one could hear small arms fire, and it
2 went on all day long, from the hills above the village of Sovici. I have
3 already mentioned that is the areas of Borovnik and Pasije Stijene. It
4 was from that area the sounds reached us.
5 Q. Of course I'm not asking you to speculate and I may not do that,
6 but do you know what caused those detonations? Do you know what weapons
7 were involved? Because if I understand you well, you are an engineer, you
8 are with the engineering units in the army. And who -- so what weapons
9 were they fired from, the shells, and who was -- and who caused this fire?
10 A. Well, I was in the war in 1992, too, so I can say that these were
11 detonations caused by mortars, not from some big guns, and it happened in
12 the area behind Sovicka Vrata, that is, these shells were falling in the
13 field and they were being fired from the direction of the positions of the
14 BH Army.
15 Q. Did Mr. Naletilic have a Motorola, or you, did you have any other
16 communicating device? Did you see him therefore issue any orders to
17 anyone, and any type of orders?
18 A. No. We did not have a telephone in the house, and as far as I
19 know, Mr. Naletilic did not have a Motorola with him.
20 Q. Were you with him all the time that Saturday and Sunday or I don't
21 know how many days?
22 A. We were there that Saturday, Sunday. On Saturday evening, I
23 remember somebody came, that is, troops were passing by all the time, and
24 they would drop by. Some wanted, needed some water, some came to ask for
25 some food, some came to have a coffee, but they kept passing through. And
1 then suddenly somebody came and said that those on the positions up there
2 had surrendered, that they were dead, that some had -- were pulled out.
3 And that was Saturday evening. In the morning, there was no mass, there
4 was no celebration of the holiday, so that on Sunday we were at home all
5 the time. I remember that Mr. Naletilic wouldn't let his children come
6 out and play outside, and the weather was -- the weather was very nice and
7 yet he would not let them go out, and that he insisted that they remain in
8 the house all the time.
9 Q. Do you remember how old were they, were his children at that time?
10 And do you know their names?
11 A. Right now --
12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] May we go into private session,
13 please, for a moment, just in case?
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session.
15 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm waiting for a consultation with
13 my client.
14 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, when did Mr. Naletilic with his children
15 leave? Where did he go and when?
16 A. Mr. Naletilic left my father's house, together with me, on Monday,
17 on Monday evening. We left together. That Monday was a specific day
18 because on Sunday, we received news that those guys down there had
19 surrendered. The fighting went on but they are getting away from my
20 village. On Monday afternoon, I remember two lads came. They were
21 members of the Convicts Battalion. They came to our house and they told
22 us that they had some killed men in Doljani and that, amongst others, Boro
23 Barbaric was killed. Mr. Naletilic's reaction to that was a bit unusual,
24 if one can call it that, because he said - I remember it very well - that
25 Boka had been with him from 1991, and that he had to go and fetch his
1 body, Boka's body, and he asked me to go with him. My mother, however,
2 said, "Where do you want to go? He's dead. You can't help him. They
3 will bring him, those guys who are up there." And the children also
4 started crying. However, Mr. Naletilic went out of the house, got into
5 the car with these two lads, asked me to watch his children. He got into
6 the jeep with those two lads and went down there.
7 Q. When did he return and what happened next? And what date was
8 that, approximately, when he went there?
9 A. It was Monday, and on the following day, the late Mario was
10 killed. So that was the -- on the 20th of April, and that date was 19th
11 of April, because Boka was killed a day before Mario.
12 Q. And what happened next?
13 A. They left, and I remained. He left with these two lads. He went
14 to Doljani. I remained in the house. I was -- watched -- looking after
15 the children. And they returned later in the afternoon, maybe two or two
16 hours later. One of these lads returned and brought Mr. Naletilic back
17 and Mr. Naletilic said to children to get ready. We packed their things,
18 we packed our things, and we went to Siroki Brijeg.
19 Q. And my final question: Yesterday, the -- Mr. Prosecutor gave us
20 an exhibit. Can you please look at it and comment upon it.
21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to give
22 P931A to the witness. [In English] A and B. [Interpretation] I
23 apologise. For the transcript, Mr. Meek warns me we are talking
24 about Exhibit 931A and 931B, both by the Prosecution.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What am I supposed to do?
1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can you please tell us, on the right-hand side, there is the
3 designation of the unit. What is "SBB"? What does that stand for,
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. SBB on the ID, on the military ID.
7 A. It could be the Siroki Brijeg Brigade but I cannot say that for a
9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. That would be all from
10 me, Your Honours. I hope I was specific. I was sufficient. I was
11 watching the time, and I believe that I have used 45 minutes. 50.
12 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that the registrar calculated the time
13 for you.
14 Yes, Mr. Bos, for your cross-examination?
15 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honours, and I believe that it took one
16 hour and 20 minutes.
17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I honour the way Madam
18 Registrar keeps the time. But the examination went smoothly and it could
19 not have been an hour and 20 minutes, and I am kindly asking for Madam
20 Registrar's intervention, or we are really going to time ourselves because
21 I'm planning to finish another witness, that's why I am trying to go very
22 fast, and I am planning to have a number of witnesses tomorrow, whom I
23 want to finish tomorrow.
24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, according to my calculation, you
25 used one hour for your direct examination and I guess Mr. Bos said he will
1 take one hour and 20 minutes for his cross-examination. Am I right, Mr.
3 MR. BOS: No, Your Honour, I thought it took one hour and 20
4 minutes. It may have been an hour. I may have been mistaken.
5 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Mr. Bos.
6 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Bos:
8 MR. BOS: Your Honours, may I just first for the record say this:
9 That the summary of this witness, the Rule 65 summary of this witness is
10 as follows: Witness will testify about 19th of April, 1993 when he saw
11 Mladen Naletilic in the house of his father in Risovac. That's the
12 summary and I think the Defence went a bit out of the scope of this
13 summary, especially in the first part.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Can you please slow down.
15 MR. BOS: Sorry.
16 MR. MEEK: Mr. President.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?
18 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, perhaps Mr. Bos has not been supplied
19 with the nearly two-page letter I sent to Mr. Scott on April 2nd outlining
20 exactly what the testimony would be for this witness, but I certainly sent
21 that letter after Your Honours requested that we do that and I believe it
22 was the 2nd day of April, and it was nearly a page and a half to a page
23 and three-quarters outlining the summary of this witness in great detail.
24 So I can very easily get that letter for you.
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, --
1 MR. MEEK: In fact, I think I gave the Trial Chamber a copy of
2 that letter.
3 JUDGE LIU: We did not receive that letter but, Mr. Bos, would you
4 please clear it up for us, whether you have received this letter or not.
5 MR. BOS: Well, I haven't seen that letter, Your Honours, and if I
6 would, I wouldn't read this summary out. I worked on the basis of the
7 information I just read out. And Defence may be right but I have never
8 seen that letter.
9 JUDGE LIU: Anyway, you may proceed until we have some problem
10 with that letter.
11 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honours, I have some
12 exhibits for this cross-examination, and I will distribute that now.
13 Cross-examined by Mr. Bos:
14 Q. Witness, good morning, my name is Roland Bos, for the Prosecution,
15 and I will ask you some questions in cross-examination. Witness, you
16 testified that you were a member of the Siroki Brijeg Brigade. Were you
17 ever a member of the 3rd Mijat Tomic Battalion?
18 A. No, never, I was never a member of the 3rd Battalion.
19 MR. BOS: Maybe just to clear this up, could we have the witness
20 be shown Exhibit P187.1, which is in that bundle. It's the first exhibit
21 in this bundle. Mr. Usher, if you could show the witness Exhibit P187.1.
22 Here, you can -- you can use this bundle. The first exhibit of that
23 bundle, if that could be shown to the witness, please.
24 Q. While we are waiting for this exhibit, maybe I can ask you,
25 Witness, if you said that you were not a member of this Mijat Tomic
1 Battalion, you did refer in your testimony to this battalion and you said
2 that this battalion was involved in the combat activities around Sovici
3 Doljani; is that correct?
4 A. Please repeat the question, because I was looking at the exhibit.
5 Q. All right. Well let's look at the exhibit first, then.
6 MR. BOS: Maybe if we can put the English version on the ELMO.
7 JUDGE LIU: No, no, I think this document is under seal.
8 MR. BOS: I'm sorry, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE LIU: Everybody is furnished with this document so we can
10 proceed without mentioning the identity of this witness.
11 MR. BOS: I apologise.
12 Q. Witness, if you look at that document, could you please look at
13 the name which is mentioned under number 1. Is it correct that that's
14 your name?
15 A. No. It is not correct. The name is the same as mine but here it
16 says --
17 Q. Don't mention the name, don't mention the name.
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
19 MR. KRSNIK: Could we go to private session, Your Honour, please.
20 JUDGE LIU: Well, out of abundance of precaution, we will go to
21 the private session.
22 [Private Session]
12 Page 12698 – redacted – private session
12 Page 12699 – redacted – private session
1 [Open session]
2 MR. BOS: Could I please ask when we will have a break, when is
3 the time for the break?
4 JUDGE LIU: I think at 12.00 sharp.
5 MR. BOS: Thank you.
6 Q. So, Witness, as I was saying, this man Rados was an HVO -- was a
7 member of the 3rd Mijat Tomic Battalion and he made a diary of what
8 happened. He was there at the time in Sovici-Doljani, he made a diary,
9 and I would like to go through some of the parts which is written down in
10 this diary. And maybe I should give you this version, as I will go
11 through some parts which I have marked and it will be easier for you to
12 read the marked parts which I will show to you.
13 Now, the first part, which is marked, and this is a description of
14 the day of 15 April, 1993, and I'll read out the part which is
15 highlighted: "15 April, 1993, at 1230, the fighting started. Explosions
16 and shooting from the directions of Risovac. Action approximately 1315.
17 Ivan Rogic, Ivica Azinovic, followed by Ivica Tomic, Vlado Atunovic and
18 Mato Krtic came down from Risovac. Up there everything was mobile, active
19 and lively. They were ready to do the job in two days, to have coffee
20 together in Jablanica. Many high-ranking officials, led by Miljenko
21 Lasic, who is in command of the operations, were there along with the
22 legendary Tuta Micika and his commandos, the Sirokobrijeski slavuji,
23 artillery and mortar units and the like."
24 Now, Witness, on the 15th of April, where were you on the 15th of
1 A. In Siroki Brijeg.
2 Q. And reading this, do you know a man -- there is a reference to a
3 man named Micika. Do you know this man?
4 A. No, I don't know him.
5 Q. And just reading this -- reading this -- this part, would you
6 agree that -- that it looks like the HVO is preparing for an attack on
8 A. That's what it says here, but I don't know it that way.
9 Q. Well, let's move on to the second quote, which is, on your
10 version, page number 14, and this is on the 17th of April, 1993. On the
11 B/C/S version, it's page 14; and on the English version, page number 69.
12 Now let's go back again on the 17th of April, where exactly you
13 were from the morning to the afternoon. You've testified that you -- this
14 is on the Saturday. You testified that you returned to your mother.
15 Could you give me exactly the time that you returned to your mother on the
16 17th of April?
17 A. On the 17th of April? I returned 15 or 20 minutes later. I don't
18 know what the time was but that was very early in the morning, around 7.00
19 or 8.00 in the morning. Maybe 8.00.
20 Q. Okay. And so you arrived at 8.00 in the morning on the 17th of
21 April and you then stayed the whole day in the house in Risovac that day?
22 A. Yes. I was at home all that day.
23 Q. And Mr. Tuta was there the whole day as well? You can testify
24 here that you were with him the whole day?
25 A. Yes. He was there all that day, and his children were there.
1 Q. Now, let's look at the quotes on page 13 B/C/S version, page 69 of
2 the English version. I'd like the Chamber -- to direct the Chamber's
3 attention to the second paragraph on page 69, and it says as follows: "At
4 1105 hours we received an order that we must not touch any of the loyal
5 civilians. This order was issued to Tuta too."
6 And then I'll skip one paragraph, and then it says, "In an order,
7 Protrka and Tuta agreed that anyone touching a civilian, woman or child
8 shall be shot!!!"
9 Witness would you not agree that from these two quotes I just read
10 out to you, that Mr. Tuta was actually giving orders here on the 17th of
11 April, 1993?
12 A. This is what it says here, sir, but as far as I know, Tuta could
13 not issue any orders. I was with him and if he had issued any orders, I
14 would have known it.
15 Q. Okay. All right. Let's move on, then, to B/C/S page number 16,
16 and that's again the next highlighted part, page number 72 in the English
17 version. On the 18th of April, about the second paragraph, it says --
18 this is on 18 April, Palm Sunday: "About 72 to 73 people surrendered in
19 Sovici and returned their weapons. They put them up in a school. Women
20 and children were taken to a separate location." Did you know that
21 prisoners were -- that prisoners were taken on the 18th of April and put
22 in a school in Sovici?
23 A. No. I didn't know that they were taken prisoners. Nobody said
25 Q. All right. Let's move, then, on to 19th of April, this is the
1 Monday. Now, let's first -- let me first ask you: On Monday, the 19th of
2 April, what -- you left the house at what time and where did you go?
3 You've said that you left with Tuta. Where did you go and at what time
4 was it?
5 A. We left the house in the evening. I think it was around 7.00 or
6 half past 7.00 in the evening.
7 Q. You left together with Tuta?
8 A. Yes. I took him, because he was up there with his children and he
9 did not have his car there.
10 Q. And so that whole day, you and Tuta were again still in the house
11 in Risovac?
12 A. Yes. We were at home in the house in Risovac all the time.
13 Q. Let's read what is said here in this diary on the 19th of April.
14 Direct the Trial Chamber's attention to page 74, starting with the third
15 paragraph, and I'll read it out: "Tuta arrived almost exactly at noon.
16 It is enough to see him once to remember him. He is of medium height,
17 with greyish hair, and has a skinny face and sunken cheeks. He wears
18 glasses with metal (golden) frames, his teeth are white and well
19 preserved. His authority is great. He left an impression of a skilful
20 warrior, someone somewhat like Odisej. Each of the fellows from his team
21 were also characteristic, but you could see immediately that they are very
22 good at warfare. I would not want to be their enemy. They all had
23 nicknames, the names were not necessary. They immediately sat at the
24 table with a map in front of them and started making a detailed plan.
25 Tuta took everyone's comments into account, but the main decisions were
1 his. The only other two who were consulted were Mico Lasic and Slavko
2 Puljic; the others would only make suggestions."
3 Now, Witness, this diary says that Tuta arrived on the 19th of
4 April at noon, and this person who wrote the diary was in Doljani. Would
5 that be possible, according to your evidence?
6 A. What it says here is not possible because I already said that
7 Mr. Tuta left my house on the 19th and he left late in the afternoon,
8 around 4.00. That's when he left for Doljani. I don't know what he did
9 there. He left around 4.00 in the afternoon, returned two or two and a
10 half hours later, because already around 7 or half past 7.00 we left my
11 house to go to Siroki Brijeg.
12 Q. But you just testified before that you stayed with Tuta in the
13 house up until 7.00 that evening and now you're saying that Tuta left at
14 4.00 without you?
15 A. Yes, he did leave without me, down there, and I said that earlier
16 on. Because he went to fetch Boka's body. I said that on that day his
17 friend who was in his unit in 1991 and 1992, was killed on that day.
18 Q. But I understood that from your testimony that you left -- that
19 you and Tuta left at 7.00 that evening and that Tuta did not leave the
20 house before that.
21 A. Siroki Brijeg.
22 Q. No, I'm talking about the 19th of April now.
23 A. I'm also talking about the 19th of April, and I said earlier, and
24 I repeat that, and this was to Defence counsel's question, that on the
25 19th, Tuta went to fetch his friend Boka's body, that two members of the
1 Convicts Battalion who came to fetch him, that one of them returned him to
2 my house, and that it was then that we got ready, packed our things and
3 left for Siroki Brijeg. That was me, him, and his children.
4 MR. BOS: I think we can have a break now.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?
6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have major objections
7 but I don't know whether my learned friend has finished his examination,
8 and I will take your instructions. Did you finish examining the witness
9 on this diary?
10 MR. BOS: No, not yet, sir.
11 JUDGE LIU: We will resume at 12.30.
12 --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos, please continue.
15 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honours. Mr. Usher, I have here the
16 transcript as marked. I took it back just to highlight one other part.
17 Q. Witness, I'm just going to have a few more quotes from this diary.
18 The next one is -- we left off with a quote on the bottom of that page,
19 and then I just, a little more down, there is another piece of text which
20 I want to read out to you which says the following: "Tuta was having" --
21 this is on page 75 of the English translation, Your Honour, second
22 paragraph. "Tuta was having loza brandy, Mico and Slavko had the
23 same, the others had nothing. Two men left a particularly strong
24 impression. They were known as Cikota and Lija. They had short hair,
25 were very strong and had a great clout. Then it started. A thunderous
1 roar of fire from mortars, Bofors, two-barrelled guns and the like."
2 Two questions arising from this quote. Witness, do you know the
3 names Cikota and Lija which are mentioned here?
4 A. I'm aware -- yes, I'm familiar with these names, or nicknames
6 Q. Do you know whether they were both in Sovici-Doljani around -- on
7 that day? Did you see them?
8 A. No. I did not see them, but I heard that they were there and
9 Cikota was killed the next day, on the 20th, but I personally did not see
11 Q. It says also here that a thunderous roar of fire from Bofors. Did
12 you see any Bofors in the area around that time?
13 A. No, I did not. I never left the house. I don't understand the
14 question. I didn't go from my house to the place where the fighting was
15 taking place. I did not see it. I already said that I was at home all
16 the time.
17 Q. Let's move on to the last quote, which is on page 76 of the
18 English version, and -- or the B/C/S version it's the last part of the 19
19 April description. And let me read it out to you. "A team came back soon
20 after that. They asked Tuta to come outside. Those who knew the
21 situation well said that something must be wrong. And something was
22 wrong. Two of his men were killed during the mopping up operation. They
23 were mowed down by a machine-gun. Tuta was angry and swearing; but he
24 remained in control. 'We are at war, somebody has to die, but not on such
25 a small assignment. Okay. We must go on.' And we did. There were no
1 problems any more. Tuta said that he must go to Risovac to see his
2 children whom he does not often get to see as they live in Germany. The
3 majority of forces went to Risovac after him."
4 Now, Witness, you were saying that on the 19th, Mr. Tuta left in
5 the afternoon and came back in the evening; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, it is. He left in the afternoon. I've already said that,
7 around 4.00, late in the afternoon, and came back around half past 6.00 or
8 somewhere there.
9 Q. And you knew that somebody was shot. Did you hear that from him
10 after he came back?
11 A. No. When those guys from the Convicts Battalion came to Tuta to
12 tell him that Boka had been killed and two other guys, and two other guys
13 of the Convicts Battalion, and they came to tell Tuta that Boka had been
14 killed. It was from them that I heard it. I was with him at the time
15 when they told him that.
16 Q. Now, do you know the names of these two guys who informed Tuta
17 about this?
18 A. No, I don't. I did not know them personally. I don't know their
20 Q. At what time did they arrive at the house to inform Tuta about
22 A. Well, they arrived, I don't know, around half past 3.00, all that
23 was happening in the afternoon, not the exact time. What I know is that
24 around 7 or half past 7.00, we went home. I know that Tuta did not stay
25 more than two, two and a half hours because I stayed behind with the
1 children. I had problems with them so that I was looking at the time
2 very often, thinking whether he'd be back shortly. You know, because I
3 could no more explain to the children where he'd gone or when he'd come
4 back, and I expected him at any moment. So it could have been that they
5 came half past 3.00, before 4.00.
6 Q. Is it your testimony, then, that when these two soldiers arrived
7 and informed Tuta about the death of these other two soldiers, that after
8 that, Mr. Tuta left the house and then came back around 7.00? Is that
9 your testimony?
10 A. My testimony is that before 4.00, two members of the Convicts
11 Battalion came to my father's house where I was together with Tuta, and
12 that they said that Boka had been killed. You understand? And Tuta then
13 said that Boka was with him, in the same unit with him in 1991, 1992, and
14 that he had to go to fetch his Boka. That is what he said. He asked me
15 to come with him. And then my mother stood up and said, "Why do you have
16 to go there? Neither of you has to go because they will collect him and
17 you can't help him any way because he's already dead." And the
18 children started to cry. Tuta stood up, went out, I followed, and he told
19 me to look after the children, and he then sat in the car and left with
20 these two guys and returned in two hours or maybe two and a half at the
21 most. It was one of these Convicts Battalion guys who brought him back,
22 and then we got the children ready, got in the car and left.
23 Q. Let's talk about when you left. So you said that in the evening
24 of the 19th of April, you and Tuta left for Siroki Brijeg; is that
1 A. Yes, yes, it is correct.
2 Q. When you arrived in Siroki Brijeg, that was the last time you saw
3 Tuta? When was the next time you saw Tuta again?
4 A. I saw him again at the funeral of the late Boka.
5 Q. On what day was the funeral?
6 A. The funeral was a day after Cikota's death. So it was the 21st.
7 Q. And when did you see Tuta again after that funeral?
8 A. I saw him the next day, at Cikota's funeral.
9 Q. And after Cikota's funeral, when was the next time you saw Tuta
11 A. I don't know. I cannot be precise. Perhaps a few days later or
12 -- there was no any -- no particular occasion to remember it. I know,
13 for instance, that then I saw him in Risovac again in August, when members
14 who were killed when the ABH attacked Doljani were being buried, so
15 between that 22nd of April and August, we might have met in Siroki Brijeg.
16 Q. Now, just let's go back a little. I just want to clarify a few
17 other things. You've said that you were in Risovac on the 11th of April,
18 a Monday, and that you then left and came back on the 16th. Is that
20 A. I was in Risovac on the 11th. It was Sunday. It was Easter. So
21 Monday was the 12th. On Monday evening, I went to Siroki Brijeg because
22 on that Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, I worked, and I came back then on
23 Friday evening.
24 Q. That's Friday evening, the 16th?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So is it correct to say that from the period of 11 April until
2 Friday evening, the 16th of April, you didn't see Tuta?
3 A. I did see Tuta on Monday, in the afternoon of the 12th of April
4 when I went to Siroki Brijeg. He came before I left my father's house and
5 so I saw him again on the 16th when I once again came to my father's.
6 Q. Your testimony is that in that period that you were in Siroki
7 Brijeg, Tuta was in Risovac, as far as you know? You didn't see him
9 A. Yes, from what I know. I did not see him but from what I know, he
10 did not go anywhere. He was there all the time with his children, because
11 the children had come for Easter holidays and I suppose he seized that
12 opportunity to be with them.
13 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P299.1, please.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?
15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I expect
16 your instruction was to raise the matter now because it has to do with
17 this exhibit, and I'm referring to the one which we finished, and that is
18 P928.2 because I have a number of very strong objections to that document.
19 If you look at the document title, it says that it is a handwritten diary,
20 but I do not see a handwritten diary anywhere, and what worries me even
21 more is that when a protected witness was called here - and Your Honours
22 will remember it was a witness from Jablanica, if you do - he was also
23 shown this document, but it was not said that it was a diary and that is
24 why I always say that one needs to be correct. You remember my
25 objections. And finally it was admitted it was a diary. There were two
1 pages which were written in -- handwritten. So first I should like to
2 hear from the Prosecutor whether this is the document or the diary which
3 they consider original or is there some other document which they deem is
4 original, and if there is a document which is handwritten, could we
5 finally get it? Or is this document considered the original? We want to
6 hear it from them. And on the basis of what do they say that this is the
7 diary of this gentleman when the source is the BH government? And I
8 believe we've already established that there is no such thing as the
9 Bosnian government. And what would the private diary do if it is? And
10 that is why I doubt that it is, because it is only the Prosecution who
11 claim it, but how could the Bosnian and Herzegovinian government come by
12 this diary which, to cap it all, does not even exist? So that I presume
13 it was the AID, as always. So we would like to hear which document is the
14 original because it says here handwritten and this definitely is not
15 handwritten. And could we finally get this integral document which they
16 consider to be the original of the document?
17 And the second thing, Your Honours, we once again call upon you to
18 indicate -- to instruct that the examination be conducted correctly. It
19 says here, Tuta, legendary man, and Micika, and the Prosecutor only said
20 Micika, so he should have asked the correct question, whether he knows,
21 whether he's familiar with the name legendary Micika, Tuta. Who is that
22 man? And can we get, at long last, this document, the document which the
23 Prosecution says is a diary, and if it exists in this handwritten form,
24 then can we get it? Of course, if it exists.
25 JUDGE LIU: For the first point, I think we believe that Mr. Bos
1 will enlighten us on the sources of this document.
2 As for the second issue, Mr. Krsnik, I believe that the witness is
3 furnished with this document, he read it in B/C/S version, and he knows
4 that legendary Tuta and Micika was written there in the document.
5 Yes, Mr. Bos?
6 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour. I don't know if it would be better if
7 we first -- if I first finished the cross-examination of the witness
8 before we discuss the diary and its possible admission. I would prefer to
9 do it when the cross-examination of the witness is over.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may proceed. And when we are at the stage
11 of the admitting of the document, you may tell us.
12 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
14 MR. BOS:
15 Q. So, Witness, do you have this exhibit in front of you? This is
16 P299.1. I don't know if you read the document. It says this is an order
17 from Commander Ivan Bago. Do you know that man, Mr. Ivan Bago?
18 A. I know one Ivan Bago from the Posusje area and he was the
19 commander of the engineers. I don't know if that is the same gentleman.
20 Q. This order says that: "Pursuant to an agreement with the
21 commander of the southwest zone of the Herceg community, Brigadier Mico
22 Lasic, with coordinator for Herceg-Bosna Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, with
23 representatives of the Main Staff, Colonel Ivan Andabak, I issue hereby
24 the following order PEE [phoen] Platoon and a reconnaissance squad are to
25 be met -- are to be on 15 April, 1993, at ten hours, in the area of
1 Sovicka Vrata." Now, witness, on the 15th of April, you were still in
2 Siroki Brijeg; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, it is correct.
4 Q. So would you agree with me that it's possible Mr. Tuta was in this
5 meeting at Sovicka Vrata on the 15th of April? Correct?
6 A. I do not know that because I was not up there. And I'd rather not
7 make any guesses.
8 Q. Witness, how far is -- and I think you've testified but I just
9 want to make sure again; how far is the house in Risovac where you stayed
10 from Sovicka Vrata?
11 A. Two, two and a half kilometres.
12 Q. How far is Risovac from Doljani?
13 A. Risovac from Doljani, some 12, 13 kilometres. Risovac-Jablanica,
14 27, Doljani somewhere halfway, so that's it.
15 Q. Now, let's just recapitulate everything and then this
16 cross-examination will be over. I just want to confirm all the dates
17 again. So you were in Risovac on the 11th of April, 1993?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. On the morning of 12 April, you left for Siroki Brijeg and you
20 came back in the late afternoon of 16 April, correct?
21 A. I left late afternoon on the 12th of April, and I returned in the
22 late afternoon of the 16th of April.
23 Q. And it's your testimony that on 17 and 18 April, you celebrated
24 Easter in Risovac at the house together with Tuta, and you saw Tuta the
25 whole day, correct?
1 A. No. We were not celebrating anything because on the 17th the
2 attack took place. Yes, the next day was to be a holiday but we did not
3 celebrate anything. It was a holy day but there was no celebration
4 because in the immediate vicinity, there was fighting. The church is
5 halfway between my house and Sovicka Vrata but nobody could go to the
6 church, nobody could attend mass because we couldn't go out. So we stayed
7 at home, we were there, waiting for somebody to come and tell us what was
8 going on. We would just come out in front of the house and try to listen
9 to what was going on, the detonation and all that, whilst we could hear
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... soldiers be walking in and
12 out of the house during those days?
13 A. I've already said that, the soldiers did drop by. Some were
14 hungry, somebody wanted water because he was thirsty, somebody wanted to
15 have a cup of coffee.
16 Q. Did Tuta talk to these soldiers as well?
17 A. Yes. We all talked with those soldiers. Tuta and I and my
18 father, my mother, because we all wanted to know what was going on.
19 Q. All right. On the 19th of April, you're testifying that two
20 soldiers came around 3.30 in the afternoon and informed Mr. Tuta that two
21 soldiers from the Convicts Battalion had died in combat. That's correct,
22 isn't it?
23 A. I said that they had come at about that time to tell Tuta that
24 Boka had been killed.
25 Q. And Tuta left and he came back around 7.00 that evening, correct?
1 A. Yes. He left with them and returned before 7.00 because at 7.00,
2 we were already on our way to Siroki Brijeg.
3 Q. So on the evening of the 19th, you left for Siroki Brijeg and then
4 the next two occasions that you saw Mr. Tuta was on the 21st at the
5 funeral of Boka and the 22nd at the funeral of Cikota, correct?
6 A. Yes, that is correct, Boka's funeral on the 21st and Cikota's
7 funeral on the 22nd.
8 Q. So you would have no idea what Tuta was doing from the evening of
9 the 19th of April when you left for Siroki Brijeg and you departed in
10 Siroki Brijeg. You would not know what Tuta did afterwards except that
11 you saw him on the 21st at a funeral and on the 22nd at a funeral,
13 A. Sorry, could you repeat the question, please? I wasn't with you.
14 Q. After you departed, after you went to Siroki Brijeg on the 19th of
15 April, in the evening, you and Tuta departed in Siroki Brijeg, correct?
16 A. Yes, yes, correct.
17 Q. And after that, you would not know anything about the whereabouts
18 of Tuta except that you saw him on the 21st at the funeral of Boka and on
19 the 22nd at the funeral of Cikota, correct?
20 A. Yes, it is correct. I cannot know because I wasn't with him at
21 that time.
22 Q. So if any houses were burnt in Doljani after the 19th of April,
23 you would not know whether Tuta was involved or not because you were not
24 at his side, correct?
25 A. Yes. It is correct. I have no way of knowing it. I don't know
2 MR. BOS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination? Mr. Krsnik?
4 Re-examined by Mr. Krsnik:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Very briefly, just a few questions. I'm looking
6 at the English transcript and now that I can follow it, and I think that
7 they could be perhaps -- there might be some confusion. Of course it is
8 not your fault, it is the transcript's fault, the transcript in the sense
9 how I look at it. I hope nobody will misunderstand me this time and I
10 apologise in advance, I merely want to clear this up. When was Easter,
11 the date, the day, and the holiday, the week after Easter, what you call
12 Little Easter, the day and the date?
13 A. Are you asking me? Easter was on the 11th of April, on Sunday,
14 and the week later, the holiday was again on the 18th of April, Sunday
16 Q. And both are celebrated and observed equally?
17 A. I said in my village, in my village, both those holidays are
18 observed, but as a matter of fact, what we call the Small Easter was
19 observed more because the -- because Easter itself is a family holiday,
20 and the second one is the time when you invite all your relatives and
21 friends to your house, you go to the church, you attend the mass, and then
22 you come back and you have a luncheon. So that is in my village, in my
23 house, it is specific and it is different from Easter proper.
24 Q. Tell me, how did you go to Siroki Brijeg on the 19th? With whom
25 and by what means of transportation?
1 A. On the 19th, to Siroki Brijeg, I took my own car.
2 Q. Was somebody with you?
3 A. I've already said it, Mr. Naletilic and his two sons were with me.
4 Q. And you went together to Siroki Brijeg?
5 A. Yes, we went together to Siroki Brijeg.
6 Q. Don't be surprised. We lawyers do certain things in a certain way
7 and we wish to establish certain things here. Yes, you said it already,
8 you repeated it about a dozen times but when I look at the transcript, I
9 hear questions posed to you by my learned friend and that's why I asked
10 you that.
11 I'm sorry, when you were asked by the Prosecutor how far is
12 Risovac from Doljani, and you answered, did you mean by road or did you
13 mean as the crow flies when you...
14 A. I meant by road, because I never took to air to go from Risovac to
16 Q. Why, of course. Don't get cross with me. We have to ask this.
17 Don't misunderstand our questions. And tell me how far is it as the crow
18 flies, approximately, because of course you can't know exactly.
19 A. From Risovac to Doljani?
20 Q. Yes, as the crow flies.
21 A. Well, I cannot affirm but I'd say it's six kilometres because it's
22 a mountainous area, there are lots of curves.
23 Q. Yes, yes, but was this road important? I mean
24 Doljani-Sovici-Risovac, was that an important road?
25 A. Well, I don't know what you mean exactly, but this road in 1992,
1 yes, in 1992 it was called the Road of Salvation because it was used to
2 pull out civilians from Central Bosnia, from the areas of Bosnia north of
3 that particular area, pulling them out before the Serb aggression, it was
4 called the Road of Salvation. And I and my units, amongst others, were
5 also engaged in maintaining that road to keep it passable because it is a
6 mountain road and it's not really a proper road. It's not for buses and
7 large trucks so we in civilian companies and the military, we were all on
8 that road, trying to maintain it. We simply tried to maintain it, to keep
9 it in working order, especially wintertime. In wintertime, we had to
10 clean the snow to make it passable so people could communicate normally.
11 That was the only road that people could take to go to Bosnia and get food
12 from there and come back. And that is why it was called the Road of
14 Q. My apologies. My client is trying to tell me something but I
15 think that I do not have any further questions.
16 Tell me, do you personally know whether Mr. Naletilic personally
17 participated in 1992 and made this road passable, liberated it during the
18 battle for Mountain Cvrsnica?
19 A. Yes, it was either in April or in May, on the Mountain Cvrsnica,
20 on its highest peak from which you could see the plateau and that road and
21 my village, there was a former JNA feature which was controlled by the
22 Serbian reservists, Chetniks, and Mr. Naletilic and the lads from the
23 Convicts Battalion, I think it was either in April or in May, I can't say
24 that for a fact, he organised an action, an operation, and they chased the
25 Chetniks away from that elevation. If they had remained there, they could
1 see that road at a length of 30 kilometres and it would have been an ideal
2 spot for them to control the area, to control, to see the convoys of
3 refugees and everything else.
4 Q. My last question: You were born in Risovac. Were you ever in
5 Pasije Stijene?
6 A. No, I was never personally in Pasije Stijene although it may seem
7 so close it may surprise you.
8 Q. I wanted to ask you whether you could see the complete Risovac
9 from Pasije Stijene?
10 A. No, you can't see a complete Risovac from Pasije Stijene. You can
11 see a lot of it. You can see my house. You can see a narrow strip of the
12 village and the fields below the hill. That is what you cannot see, the
13 remainder of the village you can see.
14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness. I have
15 no further questions.
16 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from the judges? Judge Clark.
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you, I have a few questions that I need you to
19 clarify for me, sir. First of all, are the villages of Rastani and
20 Djubrani on the opposite sides of the Neretva River?
21 A. Your Honours, I have already said that they are on the same side
22 of the river, and Djubrani is on a plateau and Rastani is lying low in the
23 valley. At the same level with Mostar city. And Rastani is on a plateau
24 in Raska Gora and Djubrani is one of the villages on that plateau of Raska
1 JUDGE CLARK: Is Rastani part of the general municipality of
3 A. Your Honours, as far as I know, yes, it is a municipality within
4 the general municipality of Mostar. It is a village next to the city of
6 JUDGE CLARK: And what about Djubrani? Is that included in the
7 municipality of Mostar?
8 A. Your Honours, as far as I know, yes, it is also included in the
9 municipality of Mostar. I can't say that for a fact because I was -- I
10 don't know what the political organisation was, the regional organisation,
11 but I believe if Jablanica belonged to Mostar, then Djubrani also had to
12 belong to Mostar because there was nothing in between but that village.
13 JUDGE CLARK: If you know this, you can answer, otherwise
14 obviously some other witness will deal with it but what is the distance if
15 one travelled by car, between Rastani and Djubrani? Not as the crow flies
16 but along the road.
17 A. Your Honour, I couldn't tell you for a fact. I can give you just
18 my rough estimate, if you will allow me to do that.
19 JUDGE CLARK: That would be good enough.
20 A. Djubrani village and Rastani village, some six kilometres along
21 the road.
22 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. Now I'm going to move to another part of
23 the world and when you talk about "my house and my village," is that the
24 same house and the same village as your father's house?
25 A. Yes. That is my father's house. At that time, I did not have any
1 other house. That's why I said that that was my house.
2 JUDGE CLARK: Was that your parents' permanent house in this
3 village which I don't want to mention because we are in open session?
4 A. Yes. They resided there permanently. In 1993, after the attack
5 of the BH Army in July, during that autumn, the village was empty because
6 it had been ordered for all the civilians to leave the village, because
7 the positions held by the BH Army and the way they waged war by
8 infiltrating their groups of -- in-depth was a possibility for a group to
9 come in and slaughter people in the village, that's why an order had been
10 given for the civilians to leave the village so that in the period between
11 August or September, 1993, until the -- until the spring or January or
12 February 1994, the village was empty, and my parents spent that period of
13 time in Siroki Brijeg. They were not in their own house.
14 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. I just wanted to clarify that the house
15 in the village was your parents' permanent house and where you had grown
16 up and for a period, they had to leave it. Is that correct? Because of
17 the wartime situation?
18 A. That is correct.
19 JUDGE CLARK: Can you describe to me how -- what the facilities of
20 the house are? Is it a house that has land around it or is it actually in
21 a village with houses beside it?
22 A. My village is very specific so to say. It is composed of several
23 hamlets, three or four or five houses stand together. Where my house is,
24 there is my house and there are some other facilities like barns, the old
25 barn, the new barn, there is my father's uncle's house, who he died and my
1 father inherited his uncle's house. And we also used it as our residence.
2 We resided in it. And there is also a house belonging to one of my
3 relatives, with out houses as well; barns, garages, and one house is about
4 20, 30 or 50 metres away from another. They are very close to each other
5 is what I'm saying.
6 JUDGE CLARK: What I wanted to know, because I was curious what
7 you would do the whole week with all family members and children all in
8 one house, so the situation is that you had several houses in a unit of
9 one residence. Was Mr. Naletilic and his children, were they residing in
10 the main house, so to speak, with your parents, or in one of the guest
12 A. Mr. Naletilic and his children stayed in my father's house. They
13 slept there, they stayed there.
14 And as for the part of your question what could one do with
15 children for a week, I can tell you that my village is at a level of 1200
16 metres above the sea level. It is a mountain plateau between two
17 mountains whose names are Vrana and Cvrsnica and the slopes of both these
18 mountains are forested, Cvrsnica a bit more than Vrana. At one end of
19 that plateau, there is a lake called Blidinsko Lake, and the complete area
20 is beautiful to look at, and in 1995 or 1996, one part of that area was
21 proclaimed a park of nature. In that area, in its lower part, there is a
22 lot of pine trees, and when it is flourishing in the spring, it's -- there
23 is a lot of dust, and very many families at the time who have problems
24 with breathing, they come to this area, to this very day.
25 JUDGE CLARK: I didn't expect so much detail but thank you. What
1 I wanted to ask you is when you came to visit at your parents' house for
2 the traditional Easter and then you had to return to work, did you bring
3 your wife and children with you and did they remain in the house when you
4 went back to Siroki Brijeg?
5 A. At that time, I did not have a wife and children.
6 JUDGE CLARK: I understood you to say that you had children who
7 were the same age as Mr. Naletilic's children. I understood that they
8 played together.
9 A. No. My sons now are of the same age as Mr. Naletilic's sons were
10 at the time. That's how I could remember how old were Mr. Naletilic's
11 children at the time. That's how old my sons are now.
12 JUDGE CLARK: You can understand now when I was asking what did
13 you do with four children if they couldn't go outside. What I want to
14 know is that you left to go to work, now that explains, and you left
15 Mr. Naletilic with his two children and your mother and your father and
16 possibly you said a sister. When you came back on the Friday, you said
17 there were a lot of soldiers around or more than usual, and the following
18 day, you heard noises that alarmed you, and you did your best to settle
19 your mother down and not to worry her and then you told the truth and the
20 reality of the situation to your father and Mr. Naletilic. What I'm
21 curious about was why didn't you, Mr. Naletilic and the children leave to
22 go to somewhere safer immediately you heard the shooting? Why didn't you
23 take them in your car to Siroki Brijeg? Why did you stay?
24 A. Your Honour, first of all, the large concentration of the troops
25 did not happen on the 16th but on the morning of the 17th, and when my
1 mother woke me up, she did it for precisely that reason.
2 JUDGE CLARK: Why didn't you leave? Because Mr. Naletilic was
3 obviously worried for his children and your mother was obviously upset.
4 A. Mr. Naletilic was concerned for his children's safety but I
5 already told you that the -- what was the -- what was the practice of the
6 BH Army, that they would infiltrate their sabotage groups in depth of the
7 territory where it was least expected so the road was simply not safe
8 enough, and as the conflict progressed, it went further away from our
9 house, so that even on the following day, I can say that it was not
10 necessary for any of to us leave the village, because on the evening of
11 the 17th, we learned that in the positions that were closest to the
12 village, to my village, that in these positions that the BH Army members
13 had surrendered and that the fighting was moved from there.
14 JUDGE CLARK: One last question: You know the area very well. At
15 the time in 1993, did you know anything about there being a trout farm or
16 a fish farm in the area?
17 A. I don't know. There is no such thing in my village.
18 JUDGE CLARK: In the area. Do you know anything at all about a
19 place where fish used to be raised, commercially or whatever, but not
20 naturally any way?
21 A. Your Honour, I don't know. I know that on the Neretva River there
22 was a floating something, I can't give you the technical term but it was
23 the area where fish was grown or raised. On the Neretva River. As far as
24 I know.
25 JUDGE CLARK: Do not worry if you do not know the answer but thank
1 you very much for your answers.
2 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judges' questions? Mr. Krsnik?
3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Just one more question
4 Further examination by Mr. Krsnik:
5 Q. You said the village had to be evacuated. What exactly had
6 happened and why did you have to evacuate? That is what Judge Clark also
7 asked you?
8 A. On the 27th of July, there was an attack by the BH Army on
9 villages Sovici, Doljani and Risovac. Then the civilians were slaughtered
10 because the attack followed their routine, their sabotage groups were
11 infiltrated in the back and nobody expected it, and in Stipica Livada,
12 there was a slaughter which took place. I believe that you all heard
13 about that. That's when 27 civilians and HVO soldiers were killed, from
14 an ambush, and there were also some killed civilians in Doljani. I don't
15 know their exact number. After that, on the 29th and the 30th of July,
16 a -- they were pushed back from this location, from Stipica Livada, and
17 the villages of Sovici and Doljani were liberated, but drawing a lesson
18 from that experience in order to prevent that from happening again,
19 civilians were evacuated from Sovici, Doljani and Risovac.
20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Bos?
22 MR. BOS: No, thank you.
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
24 Well, thank you, Witness, for coming to The Hague to give your
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE LIU: When the usher pulls down the blinds, he will show you
3 out of the room. We wish you a pleasant journey back home.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you once again.
5 JUDGE LIU: Just remain where you are.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Bos, are you ready to tell us about the
8 source of that document?
9 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honours. Let me just first explain a little
10 bit the background of this diary. First of all the diary consists of
11 three different documents. You have the handwritten diary, you have the
12 typed out diary both in the B/C/S language and then you have the English
13 translation. The typed out B/C/S version of this diary was disclosed to
14 the Defence this September 2000. At that time we did not have the
15 handwritten diary. We just had the typed out version in B/C/S. The
16 handwritten version we received later, and the handwritten version,
17 together with the English version and the complete diary, was then
18 tendered by Mr. Poriouvaev through Witness NE, if I remember well, on the
19 29th of May.
20 I can also inform the Trial Chamber that we don't have the
21 original original version of the diary. We only have a copy of the
22 handwritten diary. So that's the background, and that explains why we did
23 not disclose the handwritten diary in September, 2000.
24 Now, on the 29th of May, when the diary was tendered through
25 Witness NE by Mr. Poriouvaev, the Defence made an objection to the
1 admission of this diary and that objection is still pending before the
2 Trial Chamber. And just on the admission of this diary, I'd like to say
3 that obviously the best person to authenticate this document is the author
4 of the diary, Mr. Rados, but we are not in a position to call Mr. Rados,
5 and we submit that this document can also be admitted without Mr. Rados.
6 The Appeals Chamber has said that on evidence that there is no legal
7 basis, the proof of authenticity is a separate threshold requirement for
8 the admission of documentary evidence and I think you've been referring --
9 your Chamber has been referring to this Appeals Chamber decision as well.
10 And it's our submission Your Honour that is if you read the contents of
11 this diary, and you put that in the context of the evidence that the
12 Prosecutor has presented on Sovici-Doljani, the document authenticates
13 itself. If you read it would be very unlikely that this whole document is
14 a forgery. And that's why I think this document should be admitted.
15 That's what I need to say on the diary.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Judge Clark?
17 JUDGE CLARK: Could I just ask a question about that, Mr. Bos?
18 Originally when it was furnished to you by the government of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, you received the typed up version, I think you said,
20 and that was disclosed to the Defence. I believe you said that you
21 subsequently received a photocopy of the handwritten version. Do you have
22 the entire diary in photocopy form, including the first and last page and
23 the continuation pages?
24 MR. BOS: Absolutely, Your Honour, that is Exhibit P928. That's
25 the entire diary and that was tendered by Mr. Poriouvaev through Witness
1 NE. And what I have used today is Exhibit P928/2, which are excerpts from
2 this diary, and I think that the Trial Chamber should have a complete copy
3 of that diary. I think that was submitted on the 29th of May.
4 JUDGE CLARK: Do you have any idea how -- where the diary was
5 found, who typed it out, when it was typed out, anything like that?
6 MR. BOS: I'm afraid I can't give you information. We can
7 investigate this but, at the moment, I don't have any information.
8 JUDGE CLARK: Is there any person who might subsequently be in a
9 position to improve the pedigree, if you like, of the provenance.
10 MR. BOS: We can try, Your Honours, but at the moment I can't say
11 anything more than I just said.
12 JUDGE CLARK: I think what I'm saying is music to the ears of Mr.
13 Naletilic's counsel but obviously a diary containing extracts that are
14 very pertinent has to be looked at with care.
15 MR. BOS: I understand your comments, Your Honour, and we can try
16 to do this and maybe in the rebuttal case we could call a witness who
17 could say more about this diary.
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, this Trial Chamber is considering the admission
19 of this document at this moment. Mr. Krsnik?
20 MR. MEEK: Very briefly, Your Honour, I know Mr. Krsnik wants to
21 address. I just want to address one issue. If this diary is admitted
22 into evidence, we might as well, the Prosecution might as well quit
23 calling live witnesses. They might as well just get statements and put
24 them into evidence, because at that point, our client's right to a fair
25 trial, the right to confront his accusers and the witnesses against him
1 are gone, absolutely gone. That's the bottom line, as far as I'm
2 concerned, for the procedural issue, and the fundamental right to a fair
3 trial. Mr. Krsnik has other observations, but that's my observation.
4 JUDGE LIU: We'll take your objections into consideration. Yes,
5 Mr. Krsnik? Are you not talking about the same thing?
6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No. Well, I will be talking about
7 the same thing but something which is much more important because somebody
8 keeps warning me, interrupting me and I simply can't focus on the things
9 that need. We never received the alleged handwritten diary. I think the
10 Defence should have been given that because what Mr. Poriouvaev tendered
11 was two pages, and we got two pages of the handwritten diary. So let us
12 first establish the accuracy of what we are saying. Never the whole
13 diary, handwritten, as it is said. The whole handwritten diary has never
14 been tendered and we never received. Only two pages of it. That is one
16 Secondly, it is precisely with this diary in mind that the Defence
17 will endeavour to prove all the AID forgeries, because this is typewritten
18 in Ekavica dialect, and a man who is a Croat or a man of Croat origin, he
19 would never use that particular dialect in which this is typed out.
20 Thirdly, perhaps I did not say this, but now we have no time for any ex
21 parte sessions, when I say Ekavica dialect, I mean the Serbian dialect.
22 I'm saying that this was not in Croatian language.
23 And the third thing, Your Honours -- oh, I'm sorry.
24 JUDGE LIU: Please continue.
25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, of course, the Defence
1 is trying to at least get the names of these people, this Alojz Rados and
2 others, and so far we have not heard any, or at least the Defence has not
3 found it but we shall continue dealing with this because this is the -- in
4 the Defence's interests because it is this document that I'd like to use
5 to show what is being done with the documents that reach this Tribunal
6 through the Bosnia-Herzegovina government so we shall continue our
7 investigation to try to find, to locate this Mr. Alojz Rados, and I might
8 say I have serious doubts about that.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that the Prosecution has the
10 obligation to furnish the handwritten documents to the Defence counsel.
11 That could be fair.
12 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour, and I may be misunderstanding but it's
13 my understanding that on the 29th of May, when Mr. Poriouvaev
14 cross-examined Witness NE, this is the complete diary. This binder was
15 given to the Defence and also to the Trial Chamber. And it's true that
16 Mr. Poriouvaev only used two excerpts from this diary but this complete
17 binder was, at that time, given to the Defence. At least, that's how I
18 have understood it. That if that's not the case --
19 JUDGE LIU: We have no idea about that but anyway, you have the
20 obligation to furnish the whole diary to the Chamber and to the Defence
21 counsel if you want to tender it into evidence.
22 MR. BOS: Of course if it's not done, we will definitely do, but
23 it was my understanding that it was already done and if it's not the case,
24 then I apologise because that was my understanding.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Madam Registrar?
1 THE REGISTRAR: I was just thinking that if -- give me the exact
2 number, I will check my records, and if I have it, I'm sure everyone has
4 MR. BOS: Exhibit P928.
5 JUDGE LIU: At the same time, I would like to invite Defence
6 counsel to submit written objections to the admission of this document
7 into evidence, listing all the arguments you expressed here concerning
8 this document.
9 Well, could we have the next witness? Yes, Mr. Scott?
10 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Mr. President, sorry, Your Honour. Just a
11 couple of things because I'm afraid if we wait until the end, as usual,
12 sometimes it's hard to get things done right at the end of the sessions.
13 Two things: In terms of the documents tendered through Mr. Stringer's
14 witness, prior witness, the Chamber had asked about that, and just to
15 facilitate, try to make this a bit easier, I think there is only -- my
16 understanding from Mr. Stringer correctly, there is only one other of the
17 exhibits that we would tender, which is P663.1. So it's a very short --
18 it was a very short document about the six prisoners that were sent to
19 work on Zeljko Bosnjak ATG, I think out of the bundle that was originally
20 prepared, that's the only one in addition that Mr. Stringer -- that we
21 would tender, 663.1. That is one item, Mr. President.
22 Mr. President, the second item is very important to us. In the
23 last -- since starting at least yesterday, and again today, counsel for
24 Mr. Naletilic has made several references to the fact that there is
25 something -- I've heard, frankly, a number of different numbers, but
1 somewhere between the vicinity of 12 to 15 witnesses already in The Hague.
2 Now, if that's true, I'm not going to mention any -- perhaps we could go
3 to private session for just a moment to be safe, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.
5 [Private session]
12 Page 12733 – redacted – private session
12 Page 12734 – redacted – private session
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we are in the open session. Mr. Meek, please
8 MR. MEEK: The one other matter I would like to bring up. I don't
9 want to beat a dead dog, so to speak, but we filed a motion for a
10 reasonable break before the depositions. The Prosecutor this morning said
11 he doesn't intend to file a written response. They filed a motion several
12 weeks ago to change the hours from the afternoon to the mornings, or on
13 some schedule. Your Honours ruled on that the very next day, not giving
14 the Defence the proper seven day notice to even file a written response
15 to. As Mr. Seric points out, we have arrangements to make, plane
16 reservations, a lot of things to do. We very much would like to know as
17 soon as humanly possible what will happen.
18 And I would also say that we've had this argument from the
19 Prosecution on our motions where we allege some prejudice and they always
20 come back with, well, all they say is prejudice. I hear Mr. Scott's
21 argument this morning and all he says is I do not object as long as we are
22 not prejudiced, but he hasn't told you, he hasn't told us how he's
23 prejudiced, it's just an allegation. I honestly don't believe they have
24 an objection to this break, but I think we all need to know.
25 That's all I'm asking Your Honours, thank you very much.
1 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, Mr. Scott, please be very concise.
2 MR. SCOTT: I will, Your Honour, and Mr. Stringer will respond
3 further on his exhibit and then I apologise if I spoke for him. Your
4 Honour, I thought I was clear this morning. I will be brief. The
5 prejudice is this: In theory, we would not object to a break, if it's
6 reasonable and assists the Chamber and assists the counsel and everybody.
7 The concern was this, that it becomes, frankly, the tail wagging the dog,
8 that a schedule is then set and it becomes artificial and it dictates
9 certain things. And the concern was that because of a schedule and
10 because then a break and everything else being set and a break before and
11 a break after, that the pressure would increase to finish these witnesses
12 in a way that would then impinge on the effective cross-examination of the
13 witnesses, that there would be timetables that would not allow us to
14 conduct effective cross-examination. That's the potential prejudice and
15 that's what we objected to.
16 If the Chamber -- I want to choose my words -- I'm not asking for
17 guarantees from the Chamber, I'm not sure that's the right word. As long
18 as the Chamber recognises our concern and that if we don't finish by -- if
19 there is a break on some date and if the witnesses are not effectively
20 finished by then and we have not had the chance to conduct effective
21 cross-examination and we call all those witnesses in the future and we
22 have the opportunity to conduct an effective cross-examination, then we
23 don't object -- then in that circumstance, I don't think we would object
24 to breaks. We do object if it's going to become - if I can use the phrase
25 again - if it becomes the tail wagging the dog, then we do object.
1 JUDGE LIU: Well, no more debates. Mr. Stringer, I give you one
3 MR. STRINGER: Thank you Mr. President. Counsel asserted that the
4 document is neither relevant nor probative. I respectfully disagree. I
5 believe -- I don't have the -- I can't get to the transcript from my
6 position here but I think in fact counsel authenticated this document, or
7 at the very least referred to it in his redirect examination of the
8 witness in which he called upon the witness to read the name of the person
9 who signed the document, Ivan Andabak, which the witness did.
10 Now, we have got a document here that bears the stamp, the
11 original language version bearing the stamp from the Zagreb archive.
12 We've reported and informed the Trial Chamber in our list that it is in
13 fact a document from the Zagreb archive. It is a document bearing what
14 appears to be the signature of Ivan Andabak over the typed name of Mladen
15 Naletilic, Tuta, as the commander of the Convicts Battalion, requesting
16 the use of six prisoners from the Ljubuski prison for the use of the
17 Convicts Battalion. We assert that it's authentic. It's probative,
18 relevant, and ought to be admitted.
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. This Trial Chamber would like to make the
20 decisions in the admission of those documents at a later stage, taking
21 into consideration of the views expressed by both parties. As for the
22 decisions for the break, this Trial Chamber will make a decision this week
23 no matter we received or not any written submissions from the Prosecution.
24 We will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in the same courtroom.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
1 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
2 the 20th day of June, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.