Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12739

 1                          Thursday 20 June, 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours, this is case number

 7    IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Krsnik, are you ready for your witness?

 9            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, yes,

10    certainly.

11            JUDGE LIU:  Are there any protective measures for this witness?

12            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Like with the

13    previous witnesses, face distortion and a pseudonym.

14            JUDGE LIU:  Any objections?  Mr. Stringer?  Mr. Scott?  I'm

15    sorry.

16            MR. SCOTT:  No, Your Honour, not really.  It's not clear to the

17    Prosecution why such a man would need protection but we won't oppose it.

18            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  So the request is granted.  Mr. Usher

19    could we have the witness, please.

20                          [The witness entered court].

21            JUDGE LIU:  Good morning, Witness.  Can you hear me?

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, yes, I can.

23            JUDGE LIU:  Would you please take the solemn declaration, please?

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 12740

 1                          WITNESS:  WITNESS NM

 2                          [Witness answered through interpreter].

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  You may sit down, please.

 4            Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

 5                          Examined by Mr. Krsnik:

 6       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

 7       A.   Good morning.

 8       Q.   A few instructions that I normally give to every witness.

 9    Whatever you say is being interpreted, so try to find a certain pace, a

10    certain speed, so that you do not speak too slow or too fast.  The best

11    procedure for you would be to look at the dot on the screen and when the

12    dot stops, start giving your answer.  In this courtroom, we are all going

13    to call you Witness NM, and you make sure that you do not say anything

14    that would reveal your identity because protection measures have been

15    granted for you.  Do you understand?  Can we proceed?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Now, I would kindly ask the usher to give you the name -- the

18    piece of paper with your name, if that indeed is your name, then just say

19    yes.  You can lean back in the chair, approach the microphone so that you

20    can feel comfortable.

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Let's start.  Introduce yourself to this Chamber without saying

23    your name.

24            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can we please go to private session

25    just in case?  Private session means that only us, only we in the

Page 12741

 1    courtroom can hear you.

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

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Page 12743

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20                          [Open session]

21            JUDGE LIU:  Now we are in the open session.

22            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   Please be so kind and very briefly, as I want to get to the point

24    as soon as possible, and to the facts that I want to discuss with you, can

25    you just briefly describe for the Chamber the situation in Siroki Brijeg

Page 12744

 1    did you manage to defend it and save it and then can you please continue

 2    by telling me something about the end of 1992 and liberation of Mostar?

 3    Just briefly, please.

 4       A.   After the shelling of Siroki Brijeg, the situation was psychotic,

 5    a lot of population had to be evacuated towards Croatia.  At the time,

 6    people who were at the forefront of the municipal staff, I mean

 7    Mr. Naletilic, Mladen Naletilic, who was -- who had arrived from the west,

 8    and to my mind, he was -- he, there, he had learned about freedom the way

 9    it existed in the west, and who played a major role in the organisation of

10    the defence of Siroki Brijeg, especially at that time when the situation

11    was so bad in Siroki Brijeg, after the shelling, given that the Serbian

12    army was so close.

13       Q.   Please be so kind and tell us whether you participated in the

14    operation of the "June Dawn"?  What was that operation? Were you a member

15    of any unit and if you were, what unit was that?

16       A.   Yes.  I did participate in the June Dawn operation.  That

17    operation was an operation to liberate Mostar.  The boundaries of Siroki

18    Brijeg, Citluk, Capljina, Stolac municipalities, I participated as a

19    member in the Convicts Battalion on the axis, on the liberation axis

20    which was assigned to the municipal staff of Siroki Brijeg.

21       Q.   Can you tell us about this unit, the Convicts Battalion?  Who was

22    its head?  Did you have any specific task in that operation?  Who was

23    leading you?

24       A.   The Convicts Battalion was a unit composed of volunteers, which

25    was composed of volunteers from Siroki Brijeg municipality, who had some

Page 12745

 1    previous war experiences because they had already been active as

 2    volunteers in late 1991, in the southern theatre, war theatre, in the

 3    vicinity of Dubrovnik, and as such, they organised this unit, the Convicts

 4    Battalion.

 5       Q.   Can you tell the Chamber who was the founder of the Convicts

 6    Battalion, as far as you know?

 7       A.   I believe that one has to emphasise the role of Mr. Mladen

 8    Naletilic, Mr. Zarko Odak, Mr. Ludvig Pavlovic, Mr. Ivan Andabak,

 9    Mr. Tomas, Mr. Mikulic.

10       Q.   Tell me, please, do you have any idea why it got the name the

11    Convicts Battalion?  Can you please explain to the Chamber?  Maybe you

12    have your interpretation of that.

13       A.   My interpretation and my opinion why the unit was called the

14    Convicts Battalion is this:  This unit had a psychological effect when --

15    with regard to the enemy, and its name, the convicts, were meant to deter

16    the forces of evil, which wanted to devastate the -- whatever good was

17    there, for the Croatian people.  When I say "the convicts," I mean that

18    the biggest punishment for the aggressor would have been to lose either a

19    battle or the war.  On the other hand, at the time, the public opinion and

20    the information that I had at the time were such that the name is -- was

21    given to the Convicts Battalion because it was organised by the people who

22    had been politically persecuted during the communist regime.

23       Q.   Let's go back to that operation to liberate Mostar.  In that

24    operation, the Convicts Battalion, did it have a commander?  If it did,

25    who was its commander?  And was the operation completed successfully?

Page 12746

 1       A.   The municipal staff had a specific task during the operation, June

 2    Dawn and the task for the Convicts Battalion was to take the key feature,

 3    sorry, Orlovac, after which they were to continue combat operations in

 4    order to take the features together with the Mostar forces.

 5       Q.   Okay, then.  I have to interrupt you.  So the operation ended

 6    successfully.  You did not tell me whether the battalion had a commander

 7    and who was its commander.

 8       A.   At the time, the head of the Convicts Battalion was

 9    Mr. Naletilic.  There was also Mr. Andabak.

10       Q.   Very often, we have heard in this courtroom, on -- this was said

11    by my colleagues, "the officers of the Convicts Battalion."  Did the

12    Convicts Battalion ever have officers?  If it did, when was that and how

13    many commanders were there in the Convicts Battalion, as far as you know?

14       A.   At the time, that is at the beginning of the war in Herzegovina,

15    there were no officers at all.

16       Q.   And later on?

17       A.   Later on, when the home guard brigades were organised, then the

18    first ranks were awarded and this was published in the public gazette.

19       Q.   When was that?

20       A.   I think it was at the beginning of 1994.

21       Q.   Let us clear up this matter straight away.  If you please, who

22    commanded the Convicts Battalion?  How many commanders were there?  Who

23    were those people?

24       A.   In the first place, I mean Mr. Naletilic.  Clearly, there was also

25    Andabak there, and it was coordinated through the municipal staff, those

Page 12747

 1    people that I mentioned.

 2       Q.   And did this command structure change over time or did it always

 3    remain the same?

 4       A.   After the liberation operations of the boundaries of the

 5    municipality of Siroki Brijeg, the liberation of Mostar, and predominant

 6    facilities in the directions of Gacko and Nevesinje, the mountain Velez,

 7    Bijelo Polje and Stolac.

 8       Q.   We'll come back to that later.  Will you please answer my question

 9    first.  So the question was did the command structure change and, if you

10    can briefly tell the -- Their Honours what you know about that?  And

11    whenever you mention months, then tell us also years to avoid any

12    objections by the Prosecution and also full names.

13       A.   The command structure in the Convicts Battalion in August,

14    September, perhaps October of that same year, 1992, during the conflict,

15    during the struggle, a number of lads had matured, who were selected --

16    who came out by natural selection, who gained authority in those battles,

17    and there, Mr. Mario Hrkac, Predrag Mandic, Stanislav Kraljevic, and a

18    number of other lads stand out in particular.  But sometime, therefore in

19    September or October, Mario Hrkac became the commander of the Convicts

20    Battalion, clearly along side Mr. Andabak, who was always there.

21       Q.   And in 1992, they were the only commanders, there were no other

22    commanders?

23       A.   At that time, they were the only commanders, and there were no

24    other commanders.

25       Q.   And was that the situation in 1993, too?

Page 12748

 1       A.   Yes, it was.

 2       Q.   Very well.  Tell me, please, we heard in this courtroom that

 3    Mr. Andabak was an alcoholic.  Is that true?

 4       A.   No, sir, that was not true.  Mr. Andabak suffered from diabetes.

 5    He was very gravely ill and he was not an alcoholic at all.

 6       Q.   And did he get insulin every day?

 7       A.   Yes, he took insulin every day, and we knew it.

 8       Q.   Tell me, please, at that time, do you know, at that time, I mean,

 9    1992 and 1993, do you know something about the funding?  I do not mean

10    only the Convicts Battalion but all the units, how were the units funded?

11       A.   At that time, the municipal staff, in January, the municipal

12    staffs which were in operation, in those municipalities where the Croats

13    constituted the majority in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it was the municipal

14    staffs which at that time in the early stage and later on, when the

15    organisation became better, the municipal staffs started doing it for the

16    major part in those early days and the logistics centre in Grude were the

17    one who is did that.

18       Q.   What period of time did you have in mind?

19       A.   1992 and I also believe later on in 1993.

20       Q.   Now, very briefly, can you tell us what units are there in Siroki

21    Brijeg, apart from the Convicts Battalion?

22       A.   At that time, if you are talking about 1992, the Siroki Brijeg,

23    that is the municipal staff, which coordinated all these activities had

24    three battalions, Poskok, Convicts Battalions and those who roughly be the

25    units that were there.

Page 12749

 1       Q.   Fine.  Tell us, where were you quartered as soldiers, that is

 2    those others and the Convicts Battalion in Siroki Brijeg?

 3       A.   Those were volunteer units at that time.  There were no military

 4    facilities in the municipality of Siroki Brijeg.  There are about 20.000,

 5    30.000 inhabitants and they practically had no army structure so all of

 6    the men, all the units spent nights at home.

 7       Q.   I see.  And tell us, please, did you have lineups, hoisting up,

 8    saluting the flags, in a facility of a kind called the tobacco station?

 9       A.   No.  What lineup?  At that time there were no lineups, no reviews,

10    no salutes to the flag.  It wasn't organised at that level.  Those were

11    all the embryonic stages of the organisation so that there were no

12    reviews.

13       Q.   And what about 1993?

14       A.   Not even in 1993.  There was nothing of that in Siroki Brijeg.

15       Q.   Were there any prisons in the tobacco station?  I mean we heard

16    here in the courtroom that there was some kind of prison in the tobacco

17    station.

18       A.   No, I don't recall any prison.  I don't think there was any prison

19    in the tobacco station at Siroki Brijeg.

20       Q.   And did you have your command there?

21       A.   Yes, in the tobacco station, or rather in the compound of that

22    tobacco station, there was this building where we were -- where the

23    Convicts Battalion had its makeshift command.

24       Q.   Good.  Fine.  Now, tell me, if you know when and where did the

25    unit called Baja Kraljevic originate?

Page 12750

 1       A.   Yes, I know that because I was a member of that unit at the time.

 2    So it was born after the liberation operations against the Serbs and the

 3    battles fought to liberate Mostar.  And after that, I believe it was

 4    decided at a higher level that is at the Main Staff of the ministry, to

 5    set up for that area for that zone, a special purposes unit, and since we

 6    were given a military facility with proper infrastructure in the Heliodrom

 7    camp, which was on the way, which was on the way in which the units of the

 8    Convicts Battalion were progressing, when they were liberating Mostar.

 9       Q.   Right.  We heard here that Baja Kraljevic was part of the Convicts

10    Battalion.  So my question is Baja Kraljevic parts of the Convicts

11    Battalion?

12       A.   It is not true that the Baja Kraljevic unit is a part of the

13    Convicts Battalion.

14       Q.   Just briefly, when did it happen, which year?  Will you please

15    explain to the court?

16       A.   It is 1992 that -- as I've already said, that after the fighting

17    for liberation in June or perhaps late June and perhaps in the beginning

18    of July, Baja Kraljevic unit was established and it had its military post

19    code and that is 1724.  The military code of the Convicts Battalion, post

20    code of the Convicts Battalion was 1717.  So that absolutely these two

21    units had nothing in common except that about ten of us members of the

22    Convicts Battalion joined that unit in the very early day.  Mr. Predrag

23    Mandic was appointed the commander and I was an instructor.  I was

24    responsible for the drills and was the deputy commander of -- deputy

25    commander in charge of those duties.

Page 12751

 1       Q.   Tell me, could you be issued any orders by Mr. Naletilic?

 2       A.   No.  At that time, Mr. Naletilic did not command.  Sometimes in

 3    September or October or perhaps August of 1992, he was no longer the

 4    commander of the Convicts Battalion, because we all knew that he had a

 5    serious lung complaint, so that Mario Hrkac Cikota was appointed the

 6    commander.  About ten of us went and a new unit set up so we contributed

 7    to the development of a new unit, and no front line commander or anything

 8    could have Mr. Naletilic above him.

 9            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Mr. President I didn't understand

10    this passage.  Was Mr. Naletilic the commander or not in September or

11    October?  Could you please repeat that?

12            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour.

13       Q.   So will you please slow down?  Because Her Honour is receiving

14    interpretation in French, which is being taken from English so, you

15    know...

16       A.   Your Honours, Mr. Mladen Naletilic, at that time, I'm not sure

17    whether it was September or October, but he stopped being the commander of

18    the Convicts Battalion.  That was that time, September or October.

19            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Right.  Your Honours, my apologies,

20    we meant the command structure of Baja Kraljevic and the witness's

21    identity could be disclosed.  We are so concerned with moving ahead and

22    performing well that we forget about these things.  Please take care, if

23    you are referring to your office, to your duties, then please say so in

24    advance so that we can ask for a private session, all right?

25       Q.   Now, tell Their Honours what was the chain of command?  Who would

Page 12752

 1    issue orders to Baja Kraljevic?

 2       A.   Right.  At the levels, the Tiers that were above us were the Main

 3    Staff, the ministry and the Presidency, and we were attached as an unit to

 4    an area of responsibility in Southeast Herzegovina, and when we would go

 5    to a particular area of responsibility, we would then be seconded, we

 6    would be attached to the commanders of those areas.  So there we would be

 7    under the command of the commander to whose area of responsibility we have

 8    come.

 9       Q.   And what was the nature of your unit?

10       A.   That was an intervention unit, where the front line was under

11    threat Baja Kraljevic unit would come to intervene.

12       Q.   And where is the Convicts Battalion now and what is its nature

13    now, right let's move on to 1993 and let's stick to 1993?

14       A.   The Convicts Battalion remained in Siroki Brijeg.

15       Q.   And what was its nature?

16       A.   Well, same, it continued as an intervention unit and following the

17    chain of command as I have just told you, there were superior tiers, and

18    that was how Baja Kraljevic unit operated.

19       Q.   Right.  Do you know -- I mean do you personally know, and let's

20    start with May, June, 1993, to the end of that year, did you meet up with

21    the Convicts Battalion?  Did you engage in any joint actions?  If yes,

22    where was that, generally, what you know personally?

23       A.   Yes.  We had our joint combat operations but I think that the

24    Convicts Battalion, after the attack and aggression by the MOS forces on

25    the 30th of June, 1993, on Bijelo Polje, North Camp, suburban parts of the

Page 12753

 1    town of Mostar, after that the intervention unit was in sector north, and

 2    sector north was a part o the operative zone East Herzegovina, which was

 3    split down into three zones, sector north, sector of city defence and

 4    sector south.  So that the intervention units at different periods of

 5    time, had their areas of responsibility where they undertook intervention

 6    operations, and I remember this particular date because at that time, with

 7    the Baja Kraljevic unit, I went, as an intervention unit, to Bijelo Polje,

 8    which had been attacked, and I stayed there with the unit for some 20, 25

 9    days.  And that, at the time, in the area of Djubrani, there were -- there

10    was the Convicts Battalion as the intervention unit in the area of

11    responsibility of the Siroki Brijeg Brigade, and I believe that it stayed

12    there right up to the end of 1993, perhaps November or December.

13       Q.   Now, please, be so kind as to tell this Court, this Honourable

14    Court, how long, to your knowledge, did the Convicts Battalion exist?  Or

15    rather -- no, let's not talk about the Convicts Battalion.  Perhaps I'll

16    later come to Baja Kraljevic again, you already mentioned this in the

17    beginning so will you please explain the Honourable Court whether the

18    Convicts Battalion ceased to exist formally and if so, when?  And what

19    kind of reorganisation was that, which year, which month?

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Page 12754

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 3            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Sorry, I need this to be redacted or

 4    perhaps we should go into private session, just in case, Your Honours.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

 6                          [Private session]

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14                          [Open session]

15            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Witness, you may answer that question.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the Convicts Battalion ceased

17    to exist, Mr. Andabak, who -- and he was there at the time, I believe he

18    was assigned to the Main Staff or the Defence Ministry.  And this -- and

19    those men who were members of the units, they were given the opportunity

20    to join guards brigades.  Naturally, with the clearly defined

21    organisation, where everything went according to the book, and there was

22    the book, and with all the necessary documents existed, so such a guard

23    brigade which was in terms of its organisation was to have about 3500

24    people, and it could accommodate everybody who wanted to become a

25    professional soldier.  Clearly, if that individual met the criteria, which

Page 12756

 1    at that time had been laid down for that particular formation.

 2            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

 3       Q.   Witness, I appreciate that you were a witness of your time and I

 4    am very happy that I could get you here and ask you to explain certain

 5    things to the Honourable Court because I see that you were in that area

 6    for the duration.  So I will ask you now a couple of more questions in

 7    order to try to draw a more precise picture.  We've seen many documents

 8    but I will not waste my time on that because I presume that my learned

 9    friend will do that.  In many documents, we saw Tuta ATG, and then Tuta's

10    units, then references in 1993, personally, to commander Mladen

11    Naletilic.  So my first question is whether there was any such thing as

12    Tuta ATG.

13       A.   There was never such thing as the Tuta ATG.

14       Q.   Do you then have some explanation for that?  How can one then see,

15    have references to the Tuta ATG or to him as a commander?  And you told us

16    that he was not a commander in 1993.

17       A.   Yes, I said that, and that is true.  However, since at that time

18    that I was talking about, the liberation operations, June Dawn, Mr. Mladen

19    Naletilic's role in that operation, to all intensive purposes he was, at

20    the time, considered as one of the key people in the liberation of that

21    area, parts of the municipality of Siroki Brijeg, and the town itself.  Of

22    course, together with all the other men and units from Mostar, Siroki

23    Brijeg and those other municipalities, Capljina, Citluk and so on and so

24    forth.  So that he was held in high regard and respected, and people of

25    the area were no end grateful to him.  And as regards the Tuta ATG, and

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12   [redacted]  It is more out of respect, it is for the sake of

13    the time we spent together, which was sealed with blood.  And that is how

14    in 1992, we called Mr. Naletilic commander, and so on and so forth.  And

15    especially it found its reflection in that later stage, in 1993, when --

16       Q.   I was about to ask you, sorry to interrupt you, so how did you

17    address, if you met Mr. Naletilic in 1994, 1995, how would you address

18    him?  Or other soldiers, other military?

19       A.   Well, it is precisely that team from that time, there was always

20    warmth, there was always friendliness, commander, and within that context,

21    and I can give you an example, I still, when I, for instance, meet the

22    Minister of Defence of the federation from the time, Mr. Vlado Soljic, and

23    still say, "Mr. Minister, shall we go and have some coffee," even though

24    he's not been a minister for six or seven years now but at the time when

25    these areas were liberated he was a minister and so when we meet, I still

Page 12758












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Page 12759

 1    say, "Mr. Minister."  My men and my officers commander, address me as

 2    commander even though I left them some five, six, no, seven years now.

 3       Q.   I see.  Do you know who Tutici, "Tuta's boys" are, did anyone

 4    refer to you as Tuta's boys?

 5       A.   Oh, come, no, never, ever did anyone call me that or that team of

 6    the Convicts Battalion.  Nobody ever called them that.  But I will allow

 7    that it is possible that there were people at the time, when the misuse

 8    began, you know how it happens, when you acquire your authority by your

 9    deeds and since Mr. Mladen Naletilic was a warm-hearted man, as he treated

10    well those men who were volunteers, not only in the Convicts Battalion,

11    and other units too and they approached him for some assistance, he was

12    always ready to help those people who had come to seek some assistance,

13    but in my opinion, it was largely misused by some other people who

14    followed a different motive.  Clearly there were some who needed

15    assistance but it grew into a habit then which then culminated in

16    different details, in here in such a manner of communication, so when

17    somebody says we are Tutici they go to a municipality and say we are

18    Tuta's boys, Tuta sent us and so on and so forth, in order to solicit

19    something, to get something, to get out of -- from other people at the

20    same time on -- because of that name, while at the same time Tuta and his

21    men know nothing about that.  I know there were cases of that kind.

22       Q.   Can you tell this Chamber whether it was true that the goal, the

23    objective of the Convicts Battalion and Mladen Naletilic was to expel

24    Muslims from the area where they -- there were conflicts during 1993?

25       A.   It is an insult, it's out of the question to say that the goal of

Page 12760

 1    Kaznjenicka Bojna, of the Convicts Battalion, or any other unit of the

 2    Croatian Defence Council would be ethnic cleansing and expelling Muslims

 3    from the area of any municipality or any town at the time.  That is not

 4    true.  That is not correct.

 5       Q.   What was the position of Mr. Naletilic on the war with Muslims?

 6    Do you know, if you socialised with him?

 7       A.   Yes, I can confirm to this Chamber that Mr. Naletilic, on a number

 8    of occasions when we met each other, and I know that he said that to other

 9    people as well, that he absolutely advocated the unity of Muslims and

10    Croats.  He was simply a person who belonged to that sort, as we say, in

11    Mostar, and nobody from that area, at the time, nobody understood what was

12    going on when the first conflict started.  Nobody realised that this would

13    escalate, and become a war, a full-blown war between Muslims and Croats.

14       Q.   You said that he belonged to the kind of people that we call down

15    there the Croat of the old kind.  This did not enter the transcript the

16    first time.  Can you please just in one sentence tell us what did you mean

17    by saying a Croat of the old kind, of the old grand?

18       A.   That is what we say about those people who advocated the joint

19    life of Croats and Muslims, Croats and Muslims living together, and this

20    arose from the historical life, joint life, of Croats and Muslims in that

21    area.

22       Q.   I would now move on to my last two topics, the first one would be

23    did you participate in the operation in April, 1993, the operation that

24    took place in Sovici and Doljani?

25       A.   Yes, I did participate in that operation.

Page 12761

 1       Q.   Can you please describe for the Chamber what you saw?  Because we

 2    are all very interested in that.  From the beginning to the very end.

 3    I'll try not to interrupt you.  If necessary, I will maybe guide you

 4    through your testimony by some subquestions.

 5       A.   At the time, in April, 1993, as far as I can remember, I was in

 6    charge of the drill, the drills in the Baja Kraljevic unit, whose

 7    commander I was at the time, and on the 17th of April, on behalf of the

 8    operation zone Southeastern Herzegovina, we were given the full combat

 9    readiness order.  I believe that this was one or two hours -- two hours

10    after midnight.  At the time, we stayed in the barracks, Mr. Baja

11    Kraljevic and myself.  And then around 4.00 or 5.00 in the morning, we

12    received another call from the duty operations officer, and I believe it

13    was Mr. Raguz of the Southeastern Herzegovina operations zone, and that

14    we were ordered to go, as an intervention unit, to the Sovici and Doljani

15    sector.  We also received information that there had been aggression

16    against the Croatian areas that we are supposed to be in full combat

17    readiness and that the attack is to be expected precisely on that axis,

18    the Sovici Doljani axis or sector.  In the early morning hours of that

19    day, Mr. Mandic and myself and some of the troops which at the time were

20    in the barracks, half of the troops were at home at the time, so we.

21       Q.   Can I please interrupt you?  Are you familiar with this order?  Is

22    that the order?  This is Exhibit D1/107.

23            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can you please, Mr. Usher, show it to

24    the witness?  We all have it.

25       A.   I have never seen this order, but it does confirm that the

Page 12762

 1    information that we received from the operations, duty operations officer,

 2    about the open aggression of Muslims, that all the units were in full

 3    combat readiness, that all the leaves were to be terminated, that a

 4    battalion from Posusje was being sent towards Jablanica.

 5       Q.   Okay.  You don't have to read the document.  It speaks for itself,

 6    and that the additional units were being mobilised in Siroki Brijeg,

 7    Ljubuski, Citluk.  Whose order is this?

 8       A.   This is the order of the Chief of the Main Staff to all the

 9    operation zones.

10       Q.   All right.  You may continue, be as concise as possible.  I know

11    it is not easy.

12       A.   In the early morning hours, we departed on the axis Mostar-Siroki

13    Brijeg-Posusje and arrived at the Risovac sector where one part of the

14    troops of the Posusje Battalion, the Siroki Brijeg Battalion had been

15    already.  There were some other troops.  I don't know who they were.  I

16    can't remember.  In contact with them, in order to gain as much

17    information, we tried to find out what the situation was, what it was all

18    about, because we did not have enough information.  We thought some --

19    somebody would arrive and that we would be given a specific task.  It was

20    said to us that on behalf of the Posusje Battalion, one of their groups, a

21    dozen of them, had left from Sovicka Vrata towards the BH Army checkpoint

22    which was visibly reinforced by the Muslim forces between Sovici and

23    Sovicka Vrata.  As they were descending, mortar fire was opened on that

24    group, and on the general area below Sovicka Vrata towards the road that

25    we had taken to arrive.  Obviously, since we had received information from

Page 12763

 1    the people who were up there that the battles, that the terrible

 2    aggression took place in the area of Konjic municipality, on the villages

 3    with the Croatian population, they were killed and injured in the Herceg

 4    Stjepan Brigade, on the strength of which was the Mijat Tomic Battalion in

 5    the region of Doljani.  When the fire was opened, Mr. Mandic and myself,

 6    went with some of our troops, Mr. Mario Hrkac, with the troops in the

 7    Convicts Battalion, we said to the lads, to the lads from these municipal

 8    battalions, the Siroki Brijeg and Posusje Battalion and other units who

 9    were there, that we would be -- we would take the most difficult axis and

10    that we would undertake the necessary operation in order to take those

11    facilities which were the key facilities towards Sovicka Vrata and the

12    valley between, Cvrsnica, and together with our units, the Baja Kraljevic

13    and the Convicts Battalion, we went on the axis Strazbenica Pasije

14    Stijene, where the fire line and the fire points were -- belonged to the

15    MOS forces.  We engaged in combat, and sometime in the afternoon, around

16    1600 hours, I believe that we took the area of Pasije Stijene.  We

17    continued on the axis along the Bacina Mountain.

18       Q.   I apologise, I have to interrupt you.  We are in the break time

19    already, unless the Honourable Court wants us to finish this topic.  And

20    then make a break.

21            JUDGE LIU:  Well, I think we have to finish this topic at least so

22    that the transcript is consistent.  And by the way, how long are you going

23    to take, Mr. Krsnik, in your direct examination, if I may ask?

24            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] It won't take long.  I started at

25    9.11 and I believe that I will need another 15 or 20 minutes, not more,

Page 12764

 1    because I would like to start my next witness today.  Maybe we won't be

 2    able to finish that witness but at least I want to finish my

 3    examination-in-chief of that next witness.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Let the witness finish this topic, then we'll

 5    break.  Then you will take about 10 to 15 minutes to wind up your direct

 6    examination.  Yes.

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After we took Pasije Stijene, that

 8    was on the 17th, we continued.

 9            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   I again apologise for the interruption.  I will ask the usher in

11    order to provide the Honourable Court with the insight into what you're

12    describing, I am tendering 6.2 and 6.3, and 8.2.  I have in hand in case

13    our Madam Registrar doesn't have them.

14            Please take the pointer.  Whenever you mention a feature or a

15    place, you can point them to us.

16            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Please can you put these photos on

17    the ELMO, put them on the ELMO?  And the witness will choose --

18       Q.   Witness, when you talk about features or sites, can you please

19    choose the photo and show us what you're talking about?  You can actually

20    show -- point on the photos.

21       A.   I believe that this is Sovici village, and this northern part

22    here, from the west, this is the area of Pasije Stijene, and further

23    down, there is Sovicka Vrata.  We were behind Strazbenica.  We came to

24    Pasije Stijene.  That is west of Sovici.  We proceeded towards the

25    northern part

Page 12765

 1    of Sovici, towards the Bacina Planina Pass, towards Rama, and we continued

 2    along the Bacina Planina, on the rims downwards, towards --

 3       Q.   There are other photos.  Maybe you can show us on those photos?

 4       A.   I think we can best see it on this photo.  I believe that this is

 5    the other side of Bacina Mountain.  Here you can see the road between

 6    Doljani and Sovici, and we continued taking features, Pomen, Oklanica,

 7    Pisvir, 944, which I believe is somewhere here, and downwards towards 902,

 8    and then we descended to Kosna Luka.  This lasted for some -- it was on

 9    the 17th, 18th and 19th, when we descended along this axis.  In the

10    meantime, we heard that after the first day, the commander of the

11    battalion, who had organised this fire line, and who had organised this

12    line to -- facing the units of the Croatian Defence Council, and if you

13    look at the valley between Bacina Mountain and Cvrsnica, you can see that

14    this is the area, if that -- if you can take a Bacina Mountain and Sovicka

15    Vrata that this is the area from which you can feed your troops and this

16    is an exit towards Posusje and further on.

17       Q.   Please, let's go back and concentrate in order to finish this

18    topic.

19       A.   So --

20       Q.   You heard that somebody had surrendered?

21       A.   Yes, the commander, Mr. Ovnovic, I believe that he was the

22    commander of that battalion.

23       Q.   Did you hear that or did you witness that?

24       A.   No, I didn't witness that because me -- I and Mr. Mandic and

25    Mr. Hrkac, we were on this axis, but I heard it on the Motorola, that he

Page 12766

 1    had surrendered, and that the battalion had surrendered in Sovici, and

 2    their command and the troops.  We continued towards -- and during these

 3    three days, somewhere around here, around Ilijina Grude, that is a rock

 4    below Doljani.

 5       Q.   Can you show it on the photo?

 6       A.   You can't see it too well but roughly it is below these peaks, if

 7    this is Pomen, Oklanica, Pisvir, Ilijina Gruda is somewhere around here.

 8    From these hill tops, some of the troops from our units were descending

 9    and met sniper fire or some other burst, and Mate Markic and Goran Andric

10    were killed by that fire, and then somewhere below Kosna Luka and then

11    further on towards Jablanica, that was one day after the 19th, in the

12    afternoon, that was when Boka Barbaric, a member of the Convicts Battalion

13    got killed.  Since we had three killed and several

14    wounded, and since we had the task in this operation to -- since our task

15    was completed, a team came and pulled out Mr. Boka Barbaric's body, and

16    Mr. Mandic and I remained for a while in order to introduce the home guard

17    units.  We remained there for a very short while.  We arrived in Doljani

18    village around 5.00 in the afternoon, 5.00 or 6.00 in the afternoon.  And

19    when we got there, we saw that there were troops there.  We saw Mr. Mladen

20    Naletilic, because somebody had already informed him, somebody had already

21    fetched him, somebody had already informed him that Boka Barbaric had got

22    killed.  Boka Barbaric was one of those who had joined the battalion very

23    early on.

24       Q.   Just briefly, what happened next?  And did you and your unit and

25    the Convicts Battalion, during these operations, ever enter Sovici

Page 12767

 1    village?

 2       A.   No.  We didn't.  We took the features north and northwest of

 3    Sovici and towards Jablanica.  We took them one by one and we could not go

 4    down there.

 5       Q.   My learned friend is going to examine you on that.  What happened

 6    next?  You pulled down the dead bodies, you saw Mr. Naletilic, and what

 7    happened next?

 8       A.   Our unit withdrew, we withdrew to Siroki Brijeg.  Mario Hrkac

 9    remained below Kosna Luka and towards the elevation 902, he said he would

10    man the line there, that his home guards would man the line, that there

11    was no need for all of us to remain there and that he would join us in

12    Siroki.  We went towards --

13       Q.   Okay.  Just tell us where you went and where -- when you arrived?

14       A.   We went towards Siroki Brijeg.  We stopped in Risovac because

15    Mr. Naletilic was in the car in front of us.  He stopped for a moment to

16    tell us that he would go and pick up his children at Mate Zelenika's

17    place.  That is on the main way towards Posusje.  Actually 200, 300 metres

18    off that road.  That was where the Mate Zelenika's house was.  And then he

19    told us that we would meet in Boka Barbaric's house.

20       Q.   Where is Boka Barbaric's house?

21       A.   The house is very close.  It is in the neighbourhood where

22    Mr. Naletilic lives.

23            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that we have

24    finished there topic.  After this we are going to say a few words about

25    Rastani and I will wind up with that.

Page 12768

 1            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We will resume at 11.00.

 2                          --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 3                          --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

 5            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   Witness, we have ten minutes still and I'd lake to complete your

 7    examination today so please be very specific and brief.  Do you know

 8    anything about the 23rd of September, 1993, and so-called Rastani

 9    operation, that is Rastani front line?  What do you know about that,

10    briefly?

11       A.   On the 23rd of September, I know that the Baja Kraljevic unit was

12    tasked with intervening, with carrying out an intervention action, in the

13    area of responsibility of sector north, on the Goranci, Jedrinje, Djubrani

14    line.

15       Q.   Sorry, will you slow down to make things easier for us, Goranci,

16    Djubrani, Jedrinje, J-E-D-R-I-N-J-E.

17       A.   And I remember exactly the task with which we were issued by the

18    sector commander.  And that order said that we were to link up with the

19    Siroki Brijeg Brigade in the area of Jedrinje facing Bucici, to pull out

20    the casualties and fatalities and set up the front line and bring in the

21    forces of the Siroki Brijeg Brigade.  And he told me that in the early

22    hours of the morning on that same day, along Djubrani, Goranci, Golubic,

23    Velika, Mala, Vlajina or Arapovo Brdo, a unit of the Convicts Battalion

24    had been sent to that area, because in that area, the -- it was to be the

25    link up with the Siroki Brijeg Brigade and that that area, front line had

Page 12769

 1    been attacked, so the Convicts Battalion went there for an intervention

 2    action, and we stayed there for about four or five days.  And during those

 3    four or five days, we mopped up the ground and I remember exactly how we

 4    entered Jedrinje, because there were dead and wounded there, and I

 5    remember how we found there wounded who was alive, Robert Primorac, who

 6    had studied with me in Zagreb at some point in time.  He had lost a finger

 7    and he also had a -- was wounded in the leg, and he was so muddled that he

 8    did not know whose troops had arrived, ours or Muslim forces.  He was in

 9    shock.  He was all muddled.  There were dead bodies around him.  And he

10    had spent the night there on the front line, and said that there were a

11    number of lads who had been taken away, captured, in that operation.  We

12    had, I believe, two dead and six or seven wounded lads.

13       Q.   Right.  And my one-but-last question.  Was there a commander of

14    the Rastani front line and if so, who was that and when was he appointed

15    to that post and meanwhile, I will ask for Exhibit D1/390.

16       A.   Yes.  There was the commander, as far as I can remember.  I

17    believe that at that time, that at that time it was the area of

18    responsibility of the city defence, if this is September, of those three

19    sectors that I mentioned before, this was the city defence sector, and

20    that as this order here says, that Colonel Milan Stampar is appointed the

21    commander of the Rastani front line and that all the units in the Rastani

22    area are to be subordinated to him.

23       Q.   You can look at this order, are you familiar with it, it must be

24    it, then, are you familiar with it?

25       A.   No, I'm not familiar with this order but it is Mr. Stampar, it

Page 12770

 1    concerns Mr. Stampar and I know that he commanded the Rastani front line

 2    and all the units who would go to that particular area would then be

 3    attached to him, that is subordinated to him.

 4       Q.   You see, it says something here, IZM Djubrani, what does it mean,

 5    IZM?

 6       A.   IZM means forward command post Djubrani.  Djubrani is a rather

 7    large area so IZM means forward command post.

 8       Q.   I see.  Forward command post, very good.  Will you just read to

 9    me, please, the date of this document, D1/390?

10       A.   The 25th of August, 1993.

11       Q.   I see.  Thank you very much.  Do you know Ralf Rudiger?

12       A.   Yes, I do.

13       Q.   Was he ever a member of your unit in Baja Kraljevic?

14       A.   No, he was not a member of Baja Kraljevic, because he did not meet

15    the criteria.  He was rather prone to alcohol and so ...

16       Q.   And when did you meet him?

17       A.   I believe in 1992 sometime.

18       Q.   I see.  Now can I ask Madam Registrar for my last question, for

19    Exhibit P704?  It is said that this is the list of all the members of the

20    Convicts Battalion.  So will you please look at it, just the names and

21    please comment on it.  It is said here that this is the payroll of

22    December, the 2nd of December, 1993, for November, 1993.

23       A.   As this is here indicated I do not know what this means, what

24    these groups mean.

25       Q.   No, just leaf through the list and if you see some name --

Page 12771

 1       A.   Here in the command, Zeljko Ravic.  Josip Bosnjak, at that time

 2    was a deputy.  I commanded the 3rd Brigade of Mostar HVO and Zeljko

 3    Bosnjak was my deputy at the time.

 4       Q.   In the 3rd Brigade, you mean?

 5       A.   Yes, yes.

 6       Q.   Yeah, right, go on.

 7       A.   I don't know what these ranks here mean next to names.  Captain,

 8    captain, because at that time, there were no ranks in units.  Otherwise,

 9    it would have been carried by Narodni Novine, by the Official Gazette, had

10    there been any ranks.  I don't know what these groups mean.

11       Q.   Very well.

12       A.   From what I know, Zeljko Vukoja came after Mario Hrkac was killed,

13    that he became the operative commander of the Convicts Battalion along

14    side Andabak, of course.  This here, these people, I have no idea who

15    these are.  This group 4, I have no idea who these people are.  Group 5, I

16    have no idea what -- what these groups mean.  Uh-huh, here is Andabak.

17    That's all right.  Culafic, Kontosic, I have no idea who these people are.

18    Ivan Hrkac, I know him.  It's a man who at that time worked for the police

19    on Hvar, we are good friends and I know that.  Danko Pilnovac is the chief

20    of police in Siroki Brijeg so that he couldn't be here.

21       Q.   Tell me, there are also some female names.  Do you know them, on

22    the first page, for instance?

23            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Could we go into private session,

24    please.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we will go into private session, please.

Page 12772

 1                          [Private session]

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 3   [redacted]

 4   [redacted]

 5   [redacted]

 6   [redacted]

 7   [redacted]

 8   [redacted]

 9   [redacted]

10   [redacted]

11   [redacted]

12   [redacted]

13   [redacted]

14   [redacted]

15   [redacted]

16   [redacted]

17   [redacted]

18   [redacted]

19   [redacted]

20   [redacted]

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23   [redacted]

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25   [redacted]

Page 12773












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Page 12774












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Page 12775












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Page 12776

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 2   [redacted]

 3   [redacted]

 4   [redacted]

 5   [redacted]

 6   [redacted]

 7                          [Open session]

 8            JUDGE CLARK:  Thank you both of you.  That was my memory.  That's

 9    why I was wondering about the cross-examination.  Thank you.

10            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Cross-examination.  Mr. Scott.

11            MR. SCOTT:  Yes, Your Honour.  There are some Defence bundles of

12    documents that should be distributed.  They are already -- have they gone

13    out?  I assume that the Chamber's have been distributed as well.

14    Mr. President, let me explain to hopefully avoid confusion.  There are two

15    separate bundles and it is -- there is no magic to it except that it came

16    a point in time in preparation it was easier to divide them into two

17    separate bundles.  The first bundle that I'll be dealing with the first

18    bundle that I'll be dealing with starts with Exhibit P173.3.

19            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

20            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think this is

21    absolutely unacceptable.  Yes, the examination may go on, I don't object

22    to that, but that we get binders and that the Prosecutor uses some 15

23    documents dated 1991 -- excuse me.

24            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, 2001.

25            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I really think what, and then we

Page 12777

 1    shall say we shall all wrap it in the gift paper of credibility and what?

 2    Do not interrupt me, please, Your Honours.

 3            MR. SCOTT:  We have a witness present.

 4            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Please do not allow the Prosecutor to

 5    interrupt me when I'm speaking.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  I understand you object to the bundle of documents

 7    furnished by the Prosecution but if in the Rules there is no limitation of

 8    presenting the documents to this courtroom.  Some documents may be

 9    recently issued but it might be relevant to this case.

10            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please, can we then

11    know when is it exactly that the Prosecutor came by those documents?

12            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Krsnik, you could raise your objections to

13    this document but do not go into the details, because we have the witness

14    in the courtroom.  And he has not been cross-examined yet.  You have to

15    understand that we only admit the document after the witness is out of the

16    courtroom.  We understand that you object the use of this document but I'm

17    sorry to say that there is no limitations in the Rules forbidding any

18    document that is used.  When it comes to the points of admission of those

19    documents, you may raise your objections.  Let's see what the Prosecution

20    is going to use this document for.

21            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, just a

22    moment, why does the Prosecutor request that we do not discuss it in front

23    of the witnesses when his witnesses were there, he said why should the

24    witnesses go out?  That was the Prosecution's position when their

25    witnesses came here to testify.  It is all in the record, and now he

Page 12778












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Page 12779

 1    changes that the situation be reversed.

 2            JUDGE LIU:  You may proceed, Mr. Scott.

 3            MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4                          Cross-examined by Mr. Scott:

 5       Q.   Let me ask you first, sir, it may be, Your Honour, in some of

 6    these background personal issues I suppose unfortunately we will have to

 7    be -- well maybe these aren't identifying, I will try because I don't

 8    think anyone could hold a number of these positions.  I'll try without

 9    being in private session.  Sir, in listening to your testimony I just want

10    to talk a little bit about your military background and positions because

11    some of that was not clear to me.  You said that you first joined the HV,

12    that is the Croatian Army, as a student volunteer in 1991; is that

13    correct?

14       A.   Yes, that is correct.

15       Q.   And at that period of time, how long did you remain in the

16    Croatian Army?

17       A.   Until April, 1992.

18       Q.   And as of the time you left the Croatian Army, sir, what rank or

19    position did you hold?

20       A.   At the time, I did not hold a rank.

21       Q.   And when you joined the Croatian Army, as you've described, was

22    that your first involvement in a military organisation?

23       A.   No.  Before that, I served in the regular army for 14 months, in

24    the former state.

25       Q.   And did you obtain any certain -- any particular rank during that

Page 12780

 1    period of service?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   So would it be fair to say -- I mean it may not be the exact

 4    terminology used by the Croatian Army but what many people would consider

 5    your rank do you remember that during that entire time was perhaps a foot

 6    soldier or private?

 7       A.   Yes.  I was a foot soldier.  I had some duties in 1992.

 8       Q.   And did you ever attend a military academy in the course of your

 9    military career?

10       A.   No.  I apologise.  After the war, I was at the Croatian military

11    school and I was at the war school of the Croatian Army school, and I was

12    at the command school of the Croatian Army.

13       Q.   All right.  And those were all after the conflict primarily with

14    the Muslims in 1993?

15       A.   That is correct.

16       Q.   Now, sir, when you went to return to Siroki Brijeg and became

17    involved in a unit there, did you continue to hold any rank or membership

18    or position in the Croatian Army?

19       A.   No.  I did not have a rank, nor -- when I arrived in Siroki

20    Brijeg, I had duty as an instructor of training, of drills.

21       Q.   And then sometime after leaving the HVO, did you become a member

22    of the Croatian Army, the HV, again?

23       A.   During the operations to liberate the Northwestern Bosnia, that

24    was in 1995, after the Tudjman-Izetbegovic agreement signed in Split.

25       Q.   All right.  My only question is:  So was it in 1995 that you

Page 12781

 1    joined again the Croatian Army?

 2       A.   After all the wars that took place in the area of Bosnia and

 3    Herzegovina, I wanted to resolve my status in the Croatian Army.

 4       Q.   What was the highest rank, sir, that you ever obtained in the

 5    HVO?

 6       A.   The last rank in the HVO was general --

 7            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can we please move to a private

 8    session?  These things are -- can identify this witness and can I ask my

 9    learned friend to make sure not to repeat something like that?  Because

10    there are no hundreds of generals in the HVO.

11            JUDGE LIU:  Well, if you request, we'll go to the private session,

12    please.

13                          [Private session]

14   [redacted]

15   [redacted]

16   [redacted]

17   [redacted]

18   [redacted]

19   [redacted]

20   [redacted]

21   [redacted]

22   [redacted]

23   [redacted]

24   [redacted]

25   [redacted]

Page 12782












12   Pages 12782–12786 - redacted – private session














Page 12787

 1   [redacted]

 2   [redacted]

 3   [redacted]

 4   [redacted]

 5   [redacted]

 6   [redacted]

 7   [redacted]

 8   [redacted]

 9   [redacted]

10   [redacted]

11                          [Open session]

12            MR. SCOTT:

13       Q.   Sir, my only question about this document, and again, please don't

14    mention your name or any other specifics about the document other than the

15    things that I'll be careful to ask you about, but at some point were you

16    granted disability benefits based on your military service?  That's just

17    simply if you can assist us, please, just yes or no.  Sir, in terms of the

18    content of the document I'm only going to ask you one question on the

19    second English page or for that matter it may be simply easier for

20    everyone's attention to the next page, third page in the English version,

21    just simply a list of essentially information 1 through 9, if you could

22    find the page, sir, the last page, of the Croatian language version that

23    has a number of items 1 through 9, and I just simply ask you to confirm

24    that is it correct, sir, and Mr. President, I don't think this information

25    is sufficient to identify a specific person, if counsel or the Court

Page 12788

 1    disagrees I'm sure they will guide me -- is it correct, sir, that as a

 2    member of the Convicts Battalion, you were wounded on the 19th of January,

 3    1993, in Gornji Vakuf?  Is that right?

 4       A.   At the time, I was not a member of the Convicts Battalion.  I was

 5    a member of the Baja Kraljevic ATG.

 6       Q.   All right.  As a member of the Baja Kraljevic ATG, were you

 7    wounded in Gornji Vakuf on the 19th of January, 1993?

 8       A.   I was slightly wounded.

 9       Q.   And as a member of either the Convicts Battalion or the Baja

10    Kraljevic ATG, were you also wounded in Doljani on the 16th of April,

11    1993?

12       A.   No.  I was not wounded on the 16th of April.  Again, I assert that

13    I was a member of the Baja Kraljevic unit.  I was hit by a bullet in the

14    Motorola that I was carrying, on the belt, and it scratched me.  It tore

15    off the antenna, and this did not prevent me from continuing fighting in

16    the unit.

17       Q.   All right.  Let me ask it, I don't want to quarrel with you as

18    much as possible about these things, is it correct that you were struck,

19    you or something on your body was struck by a bullet on the 16th of April,

20    1993, in the vicinity of Doljani?

21       A.   Yes.  That was south from Doljani towards Jablanica.

22       Q.   And is it correct, sir, then, that as a member of the Baja

23    Kraljevic ATG were you then again wounded or injured to some -- to any

24    degree on the 20th of June, 1993, in a place called Boksevica?

25       A.   Yes.  In the Baja Kraljevic unit, I was wounded on Boksevica on

Page 12789

 1    the 20 April -- no, 20 June, 1993.  And Mr. Mandic and I were wounded at

 2    the same time.

 3       Q.   All right.  Now, sir, you were granted a -- as a result of this --

 4    as indicated in this document, at least, you were granted a 40 per cent

 5    permanent disability.  Now, sir, you're not -- some of the qualifications

 6    you've made in the last few minutes, you're not indicating in any way, are

 7    you, that there was anything false about that?

 8       A.   These injuries were slight injuries, and it is correct that I was

 9    wounded on Boksevica, and in the Matkovic sector.

10       Q.   The extent and nature of your injuries as you've told us about

11    this morning which I appreciate, was that -- would those commonly be

12    characterised then under the HVO benefits system as resulting in a 40 per

13    cent permanent disability?

14       A.   I never took this disability, although during that stage, when all

15    those who had been wounded were being registered and -- I wanted this to

16    be recorded for the posterity that during the fight for the Croatian

17    people, I was at the disposal, and that I had gone through certain stages

18    and that I did experience -- I did experience the feeling of being hit by

19    a bullet in the fighting.

20       Q.   All right.

21            MR. SCOTT:  Can I have the usher's assistance, please, and if I

22    may suggest, perhaps with the usher's assistance to keep the papers

23    straight, if the binder could be shown to the witness so we could move

24    rather quickly through about five or six exhibits, if that's possible?

25    The next exhibit I specifically want to direct his attention to, the

Page 12790












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 12791

 1    witness's attention to is P173.3.  The numbers are on the English version,

 2    the way we prepare exhibits for the Prosecution in trial is to put the

 3    numbers on the English page, not the B/C/S page.  There should be a number

 4    in the upper right corner P173.3.

 5       Q.   Do you have it, sir?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   All right.  Now, before I ask you any other document -- excuse me,

 8    questions about this exhibit, did you ever know a man in the Baja

 9    Kraljevic unit called Goran Pavlovic?

10       A.   Goran Pavlovic I know.  I can't remember whether he was in the

11    Convicts Battalion, but in any case, he is a guy who was wounded in

12    October, 1992, south of Mostar somewhere around Vrada -- I think the

13    name of the place is Vranjevici.

14       Q.   Sir, I'm going to refer to the item because the page numbers in

15    the English and Croatian versions may be different.  On the list, if you

16    can please finds item number 87?  Is that your name on this list,

17    indicating the rank?  It's not on the ELMO.  I'm not going to ask to you

18    state your name, please, but is that you on the list indicated as

19    captain?  Number 87.  Yes?

20       A.   Yes.  This is my name, but what is this form?  What time does

21    it -- what date is it all?

22       Q.   If you direct your attention?

23       A.   Yes, I see, 15 September, 1992.  I could not have the rank of a

24    captain at the time, because at that time, there were no ranks in the HVO

25    units.  There were some markings of the duty, of certain commanders, of

Page 12792

 1    brigades, or battalions, or companies, but the first ranks were conferred

 2    upon individuals, I believe in early 1994, so that this here is not true.

 3    This rank of captain or any other rank indicated here.

 4       Q.   All right.  Well, I understand you disagree with that, sir, but

 5    let me direct your attention please now next to item 77, Goran Pavlovic,

 6    and if you will just -- taking the document at face value, sir, just

 7    taking what is stated on the document at face value, can you assist the

 8    Chamber in any information you can provide as to why the rank for

 9    Mr. Pavlovic was, apparently the original rank suggested was marked out,

10    above it appears to be the abbreviation for Colonel, Pukov, and then to

11    the right of that is written the name, the rank for major, and the words

12     "Tuta's personal request."  Can you shed any light as to why

13    Mr. Naletilic wanted this man to be given this particular rank.

14       A.   Well, since Goran Pavlovic was a member, and I believe one of

15    those lads that belonged to the old team, he possibly spoke with

16    Mr. Naletilic, probably to -- if at that time he had already been wounded

17    and I said that he had been wounded, so perhaps he asked somehow to have

18    his status resolved but I repeat, as for the ranks at that time, there

19    were no ranks at that time.  You can go to Narodni Novine in that period

20    and you will never see a decision on the ranks, on the granting of ranks

21    at the time, so I do not agree with this promotion to colonel or major and

22    I do not know what it said underneath this, this which has been crossed

23    out, and as for this request of the gentleman, if that is -- if of all

24    these men who are listed here, here, the signature, or if it is, if

25    Mr. Naletilic did write that, then it could be the good intention,

Page 12793

 1    perhaps, at Mr. Pavlovic's request.  I don't know if my answer satisfies

 2    you.

 3       Q.   Thank you very much.  We are going to have to move on.  I would

 4    have to just put it to you, sir, so the record is clear, that it's the

 5    Prosecution case that there are a number of documents from this time which

 6    in fact indicate ranks but I understand your position.  Can I ask you,

 7    please, to look at P564.2?  Very quickly, sir, if you can assist, I simply

 8    want you to confirm, are you the second person listed on that list, and is

 9    that accurate information as of the date of this document, 12 August,

10    1993?

11       A.   I don't know to -- how accurate is this information, if it is

12    dated August, 1993, and if as a signatory, we have commander Viktor

13    Markotic, "Civi," so I do not think this information is accurate and I do

14    not know what is this report meant for.

15       Q.   Let me just ask you, is it correct that as of the 12th of August,

16    1993, you were a member of the Baja Kraljevic ATG and in fact, you were

17    someone who came from the Siroki Brijeg municipality?

18       A.   It is true, I was born in Siroki Brijeg, and I still live there,

19    and the unit, Baja Kraljevic, was not in the staff of the Siroki Brijeg

20    municipality and what it says here, those who belong to Siroki Brijeg

21    municipality, and therefore do not need to have been sent mobilisation

22    papers.

23       Q.   Can I direct your attention to Exhibit P934?  And sir, this states

24    that it is a list of the dead and wounded during the execution of past

25    operations and the ranks of the Convicts Battalion and the Baja Kraljevic

Page 12794

 1    ATG, and then there is a list of some 53 names.  Are you number 22 on this

 2    list?

 3       A.   Yes.  Yes.  This is my name.

 4       Q.   Can you assist the Chamber, please, within this particular

 5    document, why are the Convicts Battalion and the Baja Kraljevic ATG

 6    intermixed?

 7       A.   I don't know when this document was created because there is no

 8    date here, no number, no class, no signature.  Men -- I know men in this

 9    list.  Marko Lovric, I know when he was killed, Franjo Pastelek was in ATG

10    Baja Kraljevic and he was killed in November, 1992.  Danko Radman,

11    Stanislav Kraljevic, I mean I know those men.  And I do not know who wrote

12    this and who was this list sent to, and why were these put together.  But

13    I do know, and I put it to you, that Baja Kraljevic, that unit, looked

14    after its dead and its killed, and that the Convicts Battalion unit did

15    the same.  I don't know if this can be of any help to you.  The military

16    code of the Convicts Battalion was 1717.  And the military code of the

17    Baja Kraljevic was 1724.  And here in the heading, I do not see it say

18    anywhere that particular fact.  I don't see it anywhere.

19       Q.   Sir, I've given you the document I have.  I understand the

20    concerns you've expressed I cannot give you something I do not have.  But

21    isn't it true, sir that the Convicts Battalion and the Baja Kraljevic were

22    so closely identified one with the other that it was common for them to be

23    listed together or for the member of the Convicts Battalion to be commonly

24    referred to as a member of the Baja Kraljevic unit and vice versa, a

25    member of the Baja Kraljevic unit to be identified as someone with the

Page 12795

 1    Convicts Battalion?

 2       A.   I have already said that they are two different units with their

 3    different military codes, different markings, and surely, men who were in

 4    those units could not identify themselves with some other unit.  Members

 5    of Baja Kraljevic were its members, and they said so proudly.  But there

 6    were members in Baja Kraljevic who in the early stages were with the

 7    Convicts Battalion.  So that possibly there could have been some men who

 8    said, yes, I'm a member of the Convicts Battalion, and so on.  But it was

 9    a very clear in those units themselves.

10       Q.   Can I ask you to please look at P738?

11            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Scott, this will be the last document we are using

12    before the break.

13            MR. SCOTT:  Very good, Your Honour.

14       Q.   Sir, if you can just confirm for me, this is another states that

15    it is another listing of persons of the Baja Kraljevic ATG dated the 4th

16    of January, 1994, and are you the person listed in item number 2?

17            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

18            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

19            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if such confirmation is

20    sought, then the witness should be allowed to read and check every name.

21            JUDGE LIU:  I think so.  I think the witness is provided with that

22    document already.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer would be that Mr. Predrag

24    Mandic, the first one on the list, was at that time appointed commander of

25    the 1st Battalion of the 2nd Guards Brigade set up in November -- in

Page 12796

 1    December, 1992, and Josip, I'm here, Josip is it with that brigade, Slaven

 2    Lasic is with the new brigade, and of -- and a large number of men from

 3    this list are members of that brigade so that this document, I cannot

 4    consider it an authentic document because most of the members were members

 5    of the 2nd Guards Brigade of the Mostar HVO.

 6            MR. SCOTT:

 7       Q.   To finish up, I know we are at the break time but, sir, for the

 8    purposes of a document like this would you not agree that this indicates,

 9    for instance, the members of these particular individuals in their prior

10    unit up to the time in early 1994 that it became part of the 2nd Guards

11    Brigade?  Isn't that what this document indicates?

12       A.   I do not know.  If I said that the 2nd Guards Brigade was

13    established and if in its development and the establishment and order on

14    its foundation said, and that the selection of men in the command of that

15    brigade had already been carried out, Mr. Mandic has just after January at

16    the time when he was the commander of the indicated unit, Baja Kraljevic,

17    he was wounded after that, he was severely wounded in the end of that

18    month.

19       Q.   That's beyond the scope of my question.

20            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President we can stop there for the break, if it

21    suits the Chamber.

22            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We will resume at quarter to 1.00.

23                          --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.

24                          --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Scott, please continue.

Page 12797

 1            MR. SCOTT:  Thank you.

 2       Q.   Sir, if I can ask you to look next at Exhibit 812.  Sir, this

 3    document is titled, "list of members of the Convicts Battalion registered

 4    in the Siroki Brijeg Defence office."  It appears to be dated the 24th of

 5    July, 1996.  I want to start please I want to directs your attention

 6    because you've mentioned this several times up in the upper left part of

 7    the first page it says, "Military post 1717."  Just to confirm again

 8    you've said this morning that 1717 was the military code for the Convicts

 9    Battalion; is that correct?

10       A.   It is correct that the military post code of the Convicts

11    Battalion was 1717.

12       Q.   And is it correct, sir, that you were listed in this list as -- at

13    item 30, 30?

14       A.   That is my name but I do not know what would I be doing in this

15    list, if this document is of 1996, as you said, 1996.

16       Q.   Well, sir, in the Croatian language original will you please look

17    at your name, item 30?  Is that not your signature in the far right

18    column?

19       A.   No.  This is not my signature.

20       Q.   All right.  And is this document not prepared over the name, I'm

21    not suggesting anything about the handwriting at the moment, but over the

22    name Mladen Naletilic, Tuta?  Is it, sir?

23       A.   Yes.  On this form, there is the name, yes, it is written here,

24    Mladen Naletilic.

25       Q.   Under the title on the form of commander, authorised person,

Page 12798

 1    correct?

 2       A.   It is not correct that at that time, Mr. Naletilic was the

 3    commander, authorised person.  It is possible, if the Defence office was

 4    comparing some documentation perhaps it relates to 1992, if they were

 5    trying to update some documentation for the Siroki Brijeg archives.  In

 6    that case, it is -- then it would be correct if it refers to 1992.  But

 7    since this is the 24th of July, 1996, at that time Mr. Naletilic had --

 8    held no command office.  And it is also possible that --

 9       Q.   All right, sir, I'm sorry I do not want to interrupt you but I'm

10    trying to move us along but please finish your answer.

11       A.   It is possible, I remember that Mr. Naletilic, at some point in

12    time, was in the Siroki Brijeg municipality.  That is in the municipal

13    hall of Siroki Brijeg, whether he was deputy mayor or something.  So

14    perhaps that motivated him to put down certain things which date to 1992.

15    That would be my comment with regard to that document.

16       Q.   Not with regard to that document but just generally in terms of

17    your examination, you said, you were quite categorical in saying you had

18    never heard anyone use the terminology, Tuta's ATG or Tuta's men, that

19    sort of thing, but sir, isn't it quite common, wouldn't it be quite normal

20    when people in referring to a particular unit might refer to it buy the

21    commander's name such as for example someone in this courtroom might

22    describe this court as Judge Lieu's courtroom.  It may be Trial Chamber I

23    but isn't it correct that people would commonly refer to a unit by the

24    commander's name?

25   A.   Possibly.  It is possible that at that time, somebody addressed

Page 12799

 1    somebody or referred to somebody, perhaps within that context, meaning all

 2    of us who were at that time together with Mr. Naletilic in the Convicts

 3    Battalion.  Perhaps somebody from that time, and within the context of

 4    that time, but I do not remember that anyone ever addressed me or called

 5    me Tuta's man or Tuta's boy or Tutici and so on.

 6       Q.   In terms of your comments about Mr. Naletilic being for unity of

 7    Muslims or Bosniaks and Croats, you don't mean that in the way that they

 8    were equal, do you?

 9       A.   I know that in 1992, Mr. Naletilic, if I may put it that way,

10    socialised and was welcome amongst the Muslim population in Herzegovina,

11    or more specifically in Mostar.

12       Q.   Sir, when you say unity, isn't it fair to say that people like

13    Mr. Naletilic and other members of the senior Bosnian Croat leadership,

14    they meant unity was fine as long as it was under HVO control, correct?

15       A.   I wouldn't be able to answer you in that way.  That is to just say

16    whether this is correct.  I think it is rather the other way around.  In

17    the struggle against the common enemy, common aggressor, I think the

18    Croats and Muslims cooperated very well because a large number of the

19    population chased away from other parts of Bosnia, from Eastern Bosnia,

20    were very well received in Herzegovina, and there were no particular

21    problems there.  Now, there could be some later things behind which was

22    some other motive but I can also give you my view on that.

23       Q.   All right.  Well, unfortunately again we are pressed for time,

24    sir.  You said that you arrived in Doljani during the time of the

25    Sovici-Doljani action, that you arrived in Doljani and Mr. Naletilic was

Page 12800

 1    already there.  Can you clarify, please, what day or date -- I guess not

 2    day in the week but what date was it when you arrived in Doljani and

 3    Mr. Naletilic was already there?

 4       A.   We found Mr. Naletilic there on the 19th, in the afternoon, in the

 5    village of Doljani but we as the unit arrived there on the 17th of April,

 6    in the early morning hours.

 7       Q.   All right.  That answers my question, sir, forgive me but again I

 8    just wanted to know what date that was and I appreciate you're indicating

 9    the 19th of April.  Then when you say that the Baja Kraljevic unit

10    withdrew to Siroki Brijeg, can you again -- and you said Mr. Naletilic was

11    in the car in front of you, and again my only question is, can you

12    clarify -- identify that date?  What date was it that you with drew to

13    Siroki Brijeg?

14       A.   I think it was the 19th of April, the 19th of April, yes.

15       Q.   And is it accurate to say, sir, that you, you personally, did not

16    go back to the Doljani-Sovici area after that, at least not in April,

17    1993?

18       A.   To the area of Sovici and Doljani, we as the unit intervened there

19    in July, 1993.  When the --

20       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... in the interests of time I'm

21    trying to give you very direct questions, please.  After the 19th of

22    April, when you said you withdrew to Siroki Brijeg, did you go back to

23    the Doljani-Sovici area during the month of April, not July, during the

24    month of April, 1993?

25       A.   No.  We did not return to the area of Sovici and Doljani in April.

Page 12801

 1       Q.   All right.  Sir, is it correct that around the early October,

 2    around early October, 1993, you were given command of the 3rd HVO

 3    Brigade?

 4       A.   Yes.  That is correct.

 5       Q.   Could I ask that the witness please be shown Exhibit 621?  Can you

 6    confirm, sir, that this is a record, an HVO record, indicating your

 7    promotion or naming to that position?

 8       A.   I never saw this document before, because this is a proposal by

 9    the Main Staff of the HVO to the Defence Minister, [redacted]

10   [redacted]

11   [redacted]

12   [redacted]

13   [redacted]

14   [redacted]

15       Q.   Sir, it also indicates?

16            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. Scott, can we please

17    redact this and make sure that the witness is not identified?  Can we

18    redact his position, please?

19            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

20            MR. SCOTT:  It's a fair request, Your Honour.  Perhaps we should

21    go to private session just for a moment.

22            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

23                          [Private session]

24   [redacted]

25   [redacted]

Page 12802

 1   [redacted]

 2   [redacted]

 3   [redacted]

 4   [redacted]

 5   [redacted]

 6   [redacted]

 7   [redacted]

 8   [redacted]

 9   [redacted]

10   [redacted]

11   [redacted]

12   [redacted]

13   [redacted]

14   [redacted]

15   [redacted]

16   [redacted]

17   [redacted]

18   [redacted]

19   [redacted]

20                          [Open session]

21            JUDGE LIU:  Now we are in the open session.

22            MR. SCOTT:  Thank you.

23       Q.   Isn't it correct, sir, and you may have touched on this in your

24    direct examination, but I'd like to confirm, that unit was based largely

25    on or built from, if you will, the Convicts Battalion?  Correct?

Page 12803

 1       A.   Not only of the members of the Convicts Battalion.  During this

 2    reorganisation, four guards brigades were formed and 2nd Guards Brigade

 3    consisted of all the units in -- from zone of responsibility of Mostar.

 4    So they became professional.  So the military police, the Convicts

 5    Battalion, the Baja Kraljevic, effectively all the smaller-sized units

 6    which belonged to their respective municipalities, they from then on

 7    became integral parts of that guard unit -- guard brigade.

 8       Q.   Did that include, sir, the Vinko Martinovic's unit known as ATG

 9    Vinko Skrobo?  Excuse me, my apology.

10       A.   Yes.  His unit also became incorporated in the 2nd Guards Brigade,

11    that is Mr. Martinovic's unit.

12       Q.   And sir, isn't it correct to say that Vinko Skrobo unit was

13    incorporated into the 2nd Guards Brigade because it was part of the

14    Convicts Battalion?  That was incorporated into the 2nd Guards Brigade?

15       A.   No.  That is not correct.  The Vinko Skrobo unit had its zone of

16    responsibility, its commander, and it was not a part of the Convicts unit

17    and it did not -- it was not incorporated into the brigade as such.  As

18    soon as the 2nd Brigade was formed, all the smaller units were dismantled

19    and from then on.

20            THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry, the interpreter missed a large part

21    of that.

22            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, one large part, sentence,

23    did not -- did not get translated because the witness was too fast.  So

24    can -- when he was explaining about the smaller units incorporated and

25    that they ranked from -- squads, platoons, and other smaller units.

Page 12804

 1            JUDGE LIU:  Witness, you may reanswer that question.  I'm afraid

 2    that the interpreter might have lost something in your answer.

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the 2nd Guards Brigade

 4    incorporated the units from the area of responsibility of the Mostar

 5    territory, those units which were active in either professional or

 6    semi-professional capacity were incorporated into the guard brigade.  And

 7    obviously, all of them were first dismantled, they did not remain as they

 8    were previously, they were transformed, and adapted to the new

 9    establishment, and that is from squad, infantry squad, infantry platoon,

10    all the other elements that guards brigade have, the artillery,

11    anti-artillery, and all the other services accompanying such a

12    professional unit.

13            MR. SCOTT:

14       Q.   I have to end it there.  Based on what you told us about your

15    military career I think it's fair to say that many by some measures would

16    consider it quite successful, which causes me to ask you do you consider

17    yourself or that you were a good officer?

18       A.   Mr. Prosecutor, it is not for me to say that.  It is for others to

19    say.  But people with whom I worked and my superiors probably made a

20    selection based on my abilities.

21       Q.   It's fair to say, you were promoted up through the ranks to

22    increasingly senior positions.  You were, if we had time, you received

23    numerous awards or commendations from the Republic of Croatia, I think at

24    least five or six, so many people considered you a good officer; is that

25    correct?

Page 12805

 1       A.   Probably, yes.

 2       Q.   And in your role as an experienced and apparently much promoted

 3    officer, did you consider that you took all steps to exercise command and

 4    control over the units and soldiers under your command?

 5       A.   As far as that is concerned, when we are talking about different

 6    times and different circumstances that I personally found myself in,

 7    obviously that all the knowledge that I had acquired in the universities

 8    and the abilities I tried to implement to incorporate in the media in the

 9    environment that was called the army or the army potential, and I also to

10    a large extent, I believe, that I succeeded in my intentions, but

11    obviously, there were, in such a mobilised situation, when -- if we look

12    at the years 1992 and 1993, it is possible that there were some deviations

13    by individuals who could not have been selected for their characteristics,

14    for their psychological traumas for their previous war experiences, did

15    they lose somebody to the war, did somebody, a member of mayor family got

16    killed?  And only in 1994, I believe that the military vertical and

17    horizontal chain of commands became established in the proper sense of the

18    word.

19       Q.   All right, sir, because of the time I'm going to be quite

20    selective in the documents that I can direct you to so I'll only pick one

21    of this particular group.  If you could please look at P703.4? [redacted]

22   [redacted]

23   [redacted]

24   [redacted]

25   [redacted]

Page 12806

 1   [redacted]

 2   [redacted]

 3   [redacted]

 4   [redacted]

 5       A.   I'm not sure that at the time I had tools available to me.  It was

 6    improvisation on my part as the commander.  I improvised some things in

 7    order to impose some disciplinary measures.  One of them was a pay cut.

 8    In order to draw the attention of other members of this unit to the fact

 9    that I can take disciplinary measure if some deviations were found in the

10    communication within the units but in this particular case, I would like

11    to say that this is a reserve brigade, which was based effectively on

12    mobilisation.  Its units were mobilised so there was no selection of

13    people.  People could not be segregated based on their character traits.

14       Q.   I need to go forward.  My only other question to you about this

15    document, is you indicate in your order, you characterised whatever the

16    underlying conduct was as involving a serious violation, I think in one or

17    two instances a place a term you use.  I know this is sometime ago but I

18    just wonder if you can assist the Chamber if you recall what conduct of

19    these two men was being punished at that time?

20       A.   I can't remember what disciplinary measure and based on what I

21    imposed by this order.

22       Q.   That's understandable, sir?

23       A.   I can't remember exactly.  I don't want to say something that does

24    not reflect the truth.

25       Q.   That's understandable.

Page 12807

 1            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour?

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

 3   [redacted]

 4   [redacted]

 5   [redacted]

 6   [redacted]

 7   [redacted]

 8   [redacted]

 9   [redacted]

10   [redacted]

11   [redacted]

12       Q.   Sir, isn't it a fact that during 1993, in the conflict between the

13    Bosnian Croats and the Bosniaks or the Muslims, and that Muslim prisoners

14    were widely used in forced labour by the HVO?  Correct?

15       A.   Yes.  There were instances of units using those prisoners who were

16    conscripts, but I think it was in their areas of responsibility for some

17    works.  I don't know what exactly they did but I did hear that there were

18    such instances.

19       Q.   In fact, sir, units under your immediate command made widespread

20    use of Muslim prisoners in forced labour, didn't they?

21       A.   Which units are you referring to, sir?

22       Q.   Well, for instance, the 3rd Brigade that you were commanding.

23       A.   Which unit of the 3rd brigade?

24       Q.   Well, again, sir, unfortunately because of the statement

25    constraints if I can ask you to look at Exhibit P935, I believe -- it's a

Page 12808

 1    very, very thick exhibit, Mr. President, and I don't know if it was put in

 2    all the binders or because of the volume it may have not but do you have

 3    it, Mr. Usher, do you in your -- it appears that you do.  I can see it

 4    from here.

 5       Q.   Sir, if you'll please look at Exhibit P935.  It's a very

 6    voluminous collection of a form, what appears to be a standard form.  I

 7    can't pretend that I've looked through each one of these but the vast

 8    majority of the pages seem to bear your signature as the approving

 9    officer.  Isn't that true?  And as I leaf, just so the record is clear and

10    I'm not accused of misleading anyone, as I leaf through here again now

11    admitted there are, there are other signatures besides yours but I think

12    it's fair to say a very, very substantial number percentage of this bundle

13    bears your signature, doesn't it?  While you're considering that, sir, if

14    you want to look, I understand you may want to look at the documents, let

15    me assist the Chamber and counsel, Mr. President, there is one translation

16    of the form on the top page and we think the form itself is always --

17    wealth substantially the same, which seems to say this:  Order for

18    requisitioning prisoners, name of unit, work location, number of

19    prisoners, the date, the first and last name, person in charge, ID number,

20    taken over by, and then to the right of that, approved by.  Sir, isn't it

21    true that your signature is on a substantial number of these forms?

22       A.   I don't know that I have signed such orders but this could be my

23    signature.  I was not the person in charge of the military prison and I

24    could not issue approvals, I could issue requests, but approvals for the

25    requisition of these prisoners, I did not have such authority but if you

Page 12809

 1    will allow me, Your Honours, I would like to mention that I joined the 3rd

 2    brigade at the beginning of the month and that I had a takeover or the

 3    handover of the brigade between the 4th and the 20th of October, and that

 4    at that time, that brigade had its communication, its life, and within

 5    that one month or two months that I had spent in the brigade, I acted very

 6    little.  I may have overlooked some things, and I will allow that that may

 7    have happened, and I would like to mention that the -- one of the units of

 8    the 3rd Brigade was in the sector of the defence of the town.  That was

 9    the 4th Battalion which was under the command of.

10       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I'm trying very hard to

11    finish this cross-examination.  If we can just look at one example, the

12    very first one, which -- if you want to look -- confirming the last four

13    digits in the number that's marked on the top right corner of the page,

14    7946, that's your signature, isn't it?

15       A.   This could be my signature but there is no date on this --

16    whatever it is, the order, there is no date.

17       Q.   All right, sir.  Isn't it true that you knew that not only were

18    prisoners being used but many of them were being taken out of the most

19    hostile conditions and many of them were being wounded and killed or

20    otherwise abused?  Isn't that true?

21       A.   I don't believe this to be true, for the following reason.  The

22    3rd Brigade was of a mixed composition up to the month of May or June of

23    that same year, while its commander was Ivan Primorac.  The battalions in

24    this brigade, the 8th Battalion, the 9th Battalion, all of them were made

25    up of Muslims and Croats in the ratio of 40 to 60 maybe, and they acted

Page 12810

 1    jointly against the common enemy, and then this early stages.

 2       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... sorry, I wasn't asking about

 3    the composition of the units.  Let me direct your attention, please, to an

 4    exhibit which is marked as P657.1, and sir, I'll have to tell you that the

 5    cover, the table or summary that's been prepared in the top is not yet

 6    been translated, but attached -- attached to it or the Croatian language

 7    documents, the ten documents that correspond, the entries, so if you want

 8    to confirm presumably you will, what the table is based upon, you can

 9    look at the attached B/C/S document, sir.  And I'm going to suggest to

10    you, in the interests of time, that all of these indicate that these

11    soldiers were taken out on your request or under your approval if you look

12    at the Croatian language documents, I believe you will see in all

13    instances in the first or second line, your name.  Is that correct?  Sir,

14    I'm going to tell you again so that we can move forward in these reports

15    there are many indications of detainees being wounded, some allegedly

16    escaped, in one instance it indicates that a group of detainees, item 6,

17    came back from labour having been badly beaten.  This was a widely known

18    practice, wasn't it, sir,?  And you knew this was going on, you knew

19    prisoners were being taken out exposed to the most dangerous conditions

20    and many soldiers -- many of them, none of these indicated as being killed

21    but in fact many were being wounded and killed, correct?

22       A.   As far as this document goes, which indicates that I was the

23    person in charge, and that the prison warden says that it is on my

24    request, I don't see any such request here.  But I will comment upon the

25    military prisoners, prisoners of war.  I can tell you that the other side,

Page 12811

 1    the Muslim side, wanted to draw to the military prisoners to the -- front

 2    line.

 3       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... but we have a few minutes

 4    left and my question was not what happened often the Muslim side but what

 5    happened to these particular prisoners and to Muslim prisoners in

 6    general.  Sir, would you please look at Exhibit P644?  You're

 7    familiarising yourself with that, sir, isn't it true that on the 14th of

 8    October, 1993, General Milivoj Petkovic, the deputy commander of the HVO

 9    Main Staff by that date ordered item 1, "I hereby prohibit the use of

10    prisoners to carry out any type of work in the brigade zones of

11    responsibility."  I assume this order found its way to you, correct?

12       A.   Possibly, possibly, it could all be accurate, but I'd like to

13    comment on this order.  I repeat that at that time it was the time of the

14    handover of duty between the former commander, between the future

15    commander and my takeover, and this whole procedure lasted about 15 or 20

16    days, and it was at that time that this order arrived.  So I cannot say

17    that at that time, I mean I joined the unit with war experience.  We had

18    no contact with any prisoners or any captured persons.

19       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I understand your answer and

20    I think it's clear, I think you've given it I'm not trying to be unfair to

21    you.  This was a changeover period at least at the beginning of the taking

22    command of the brigade.  I understand that, my question to you is this:

23    Are you telling this Chamber that you were unaware of General Petkovic's

24    order not to use prisoners in forced labour?

25       A.   No.  That is not what I wanted to say.  Here under item 2 it says

Page 12812

 1    if however this sort of activities is allowed the permit shall be issued

 2    by the main staff.

 3       Q.   Are you telling this Chamber, then, sir, that in all the instances

 4    in this thick bundle of documents, which covers approximately a month or

 5    two, that all those were approved by the Main Staff?

 6       A.   No, no.  That is not what I want to say at all.  But there was the

 7    military prison, there were those investigative authorities, and clearly,

 8    any deviation of the order that had been issued would have been sanctioned

 9    at the relevant level of authority if it had to deal with the breaches of

10    discipline or non-compliance with orders, whatever happened in those

11    units.

12       Q.   Can you usher please assist in providing the witness or directing

13    him to P686.1? Yes, there should be a Croatian language version there,

14    Mr. Usher.

15       Q.   Sir, again our time is limited.  There appears to be a report

16    issued by Josip Praljak, the deputy warden of the central military prison,

17    often referred to as the Heliodrom.  On the 24th of November, 1993.  I

18    want to direct your attention to -- try to assist you as much as I can in

19    terms of the Croatian version -- I think on the Croatian version, sir, if

20    you will look down to about the fourth paragraph on that document and in

21    the English version, Mr. President, approximately the third paragraph on

22    the second page, starting with the words, "With the approval of."  Again

23    I'm not going to use the witness's name and, witness, I'll caution you not

24    to use your own name in the document -- in reference to this document

25    which of course will have to be puts under seal.  Does the document, does

Page 12813

 1    Mr. Praljak's report not indicate that with your approval, the 3rd

 2    Brigade commander, the warden made an exception for that particular

 3    brigade as regards the release of prisoners for labour, it being clear

 4    that the detainees were to work with in the barracks compound at the

 5    following task:  Skipping down, "however, derelictions occurred as

 6    follows."  The request says, 'the barracks compound' but they take

 7    detainees outside the compound where escapes by detainees, deaths and

 8    woundings have occurred.  Reports on all of this have been submitted to

 9    our superiors." So isn't it further true, sir, that very deliberately, it

10    was being indicated these prisoners were only taken out to work around the

11    barracks but in fact they were being taken out for forced labour at other

12    locations?

13       A.   I think that this has to do, as it says here, if this document is

14    authentic, and for me this is the first time to see it, to see this

15    document, and this report, because I did not get this report from the

16    prison warden.  If there was -- if I, as the commander of that brigade,

17    have committed some error then I should have received this report.  At

18    that time, on the other hand, no other suggestive document which would

19    have drawn my attention, that I erred in the performance of my command

20    duties, I received nothing else.  If this had to do with sending prisoners

21    to work, within the barracks compound, and then be engaged in logistics,

22    kitchen workshop, cleaning the building.

23       Q.   All right, sir, I think the Chamber has your answer.  I must move

24    on.  Did you ever issue orders, sir, for Muslim property and houses to

25    be --

Page 12814

 1            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

 2            MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me.

 3            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Now, Your Honour, I merely wanted to

 4    ask, I do not know, we have only ten minutes to go.  There may be

 5    redirect.  You may also have questions.  We are not in session tomorrow.

 6    I do not know.  It will be up to you.  Shall we have to keep this witness

 7    until Monday?  I'd really like to finish him today, because the

 8    Prosecutor, you see, I never objected to the time of the

 9    cross-examination, I never objected to the duration of the

10    cross-examination but that time is long overdue for the end of it.  I

11    don't know.  Can we stay a little bit longer perhaps today?  Because I'm

12    sure that you will have some questions too.

13            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Krsnik, I don't think could finish this

14    witness today.  Since we just have a few minutes left, which is five or

15    seven minutes left.  So this witness has to stay here over the weekend.

16            Mr. Scott, could I ask you to ask one more question?  Then we'll

17    stop.  We have to stop a little bit earlier today.

18            MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I think the Chamber will have

19    been able to observe this morning, I hope that I've really tried to go as

20    quickly as possible.  And not be discourteous to the witness.  And if I

21    have, if he believes I have been discourteous to him then I apologise.

22       Q.   If I can direct your attention to one last document for the day,

23    sir, excuse me, my apology before Mr. Krsnik expressed his concern, my

24    question to you was this:  Did you ever authorise or order the

25    confiscation of Muslim property?

Page 12815












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 12816

 1       A.   I do not remember ever ordering or commanding the confiscation of

 2    any property.

 3       Q.   Sir, the last document I'd like you to look at very briefly so we

 4    can meet the President's schedule is Exhibit 708.2.  Now, sir, before

 5    anyone else says so, I'm going to say right off that that signature does

 6    not look like other signatures that seem to be yours, so I'm not

 7    suggesting, I don't want to be understood as suggesting that that's

 8    necessarily your signature but this is an order issued over your name and

 9    over your position, is it not, to -- on the 4th of December, 1993, to

10    seize various items from Muslim houses in the locality of Buna for the

11    needs of the 3rd Battalion, 1st Company?  Correct?

12       A.   This document is not accurate because I did not sign it and this

13    is not my signature.

14       Q.   Can you assist us, please, is that the name or the signature of a

15    person, a deputy or a person that you can assist the Chamber with?  I

16    certainly don't know the signature but can you assist us, sir?  Do you

17    recognise that name as being one of your deputies or someone that you

18    worked with at that time?

19       A.   This is the 3rd Battalion, 1st Company of the 3rd Brigade which

20    was in the area of responsibility Buna Ortijes.  And well, now, this

21    document, who could have signed it, I can say and I say it under full

22    responsibility before this Honourable Court that this is not my signature

23    and that I cannot remember really because I was the commander of that

24    brigade for a very short time and I cannot really remember who signed

25    this.

Page 12817

 1       Q.   All right, sir, my last question, Mr. President, is, and again I'm

 2    not going to argue with you about the signature but isn't it true, sir,

 3    this was done based on your authority?  If you didn't sign it, you knew

 4    this was being done, didn't you?

 5       A.   How could I know that this was being done?  At that time, that is

 6    December, 1993, I was engaged intensively in the implementation of the

 7    task that I was given, and that was the reorganisation of units into

 8    guards brigades.

 9            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, I have no further questions at this

10    time.

11            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Witness, I'm sorry to say that we did not finish

12    your testimony today, that you have to stay in The Hague until next

13    Monday.  As I did with other witnesses, I have to remind you that during

14    your stay in The Hague, you are still under the oath, so do not talk to

15    anyone about your testimony and do not let anybody talk to you about it.

16    Do you understand?

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

18            THE INTERPRETER:  We could not hear the end of the sentence, we

19    are sorry.

20            JUDGE LIU:  The usher will show you out.

21                          [The witness stands down]

22            JUDGE LIU:  We might have some scheduling problems for the next

23    few weeks sitting time.  This Trial Chamber will get in touch with the

24    Registrar to sort out all the problems.  As I promised to Mr. Meek that we

25    will render our decision concerning the recess, we will try our best to

Page 12818

 1    hand it down tomorrow.

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Scott.

 3            MR. SCOTT:  Sorry, Mr. President, I only do this because you need

 4    to leave the bench, but I do believe I have an obligation to counsel and I

 5    want to be fair about this.  Mr. Meek asked me today again about your

 6    position so I want to be clear about this.  I think it is clear but let me

 7    be absolutely clear.  In concept, if all of the things being equal we

 8    would not object to the breaks.  I think we've tried to make that clear if

 9    it assists counsel in some ways and we have been going at a rather full

10    pace in many respects but the Prosecution's concern was that there would

11    not be some shortening of the schedule in such a way that it would come

12    back and affect the manner of examination.

13            JUDGE LIU:  We have received your written submissions.

14            MR. SCOTT:  In any event, I had told Mr. Meek that I would make

15    that point made and I wanted to be -- keep my word.

16            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  We will resume next Monday.

17                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

18                          1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

19                          the 24th day of June, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.