Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13009

1 Wednesday, 26 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, this is case number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Before we start, is there anything that both parties

9 want to address to this Court? Yes, Mr. Seric?

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours,

11 Mr. President, Your Honours, I won't take long. What is it about? Last

12 week, both Defences applied for a short break when Mr. Krsnik finishes

13 examining the witnesses who are here in The Hague before the departure to

14 Mostar, because it was envisaged to take the depositions in Mostar. Now

15 we are faced with a new situation. We have your decision that these

16 witnesses will be heard in The Hague and will be giving the deposition in

17 The Hague. We also have Mr. Krsnik's and Mr. Meek's brief saying that

18 they are giving up the examination of witnesses through depositions and

19 now we have a new situation. In this brief, as far as I can see, asked

20 that some deadlines be moved, the possibility to examine the witnesses by

21 videolink, the possibility of examining these witnesses after

22 Mr. Martinovic's defence starts calling its witnesses. Your Honours, this

23 Defence, the Vinko Martinovic's Defence, today, you will get our

24 application in which we are asking for a break so that we can keep a

25 normal pace, whilst preparing our case, and rounding off our defence,

Page 13010

1 namely I have talked with Mr. Krsnik and they believe that they will

2 finish examining the witnesses who are in The Hague on Tuesday, that is

3 the 2nd of July, and as they've renounced the depositions, it means that

4 we would find ourselves in a predicament because we should -- we would

5 then be expected to embark on our case on the 3rd of July. Your Honours,

6 would it be possible, as I have said you will receive our application

7 today, could we start on the 15th of July? We need this break because we

8 really need to bring our preparations to a proper end, to proof our

9 witnesses, we have to organise our -- their arrival and we would be able

10 to begin on the 15th of July. So all that we are asking for is a short

11 break between the 2nd and the 12th of July. You will have our application

12 today. And then we could start on the 15th of July and then we could work

13 without any further intermission until the summer recess.

14 Mr. Krsnik also wishes to say something. Thank you.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I will

17 also be very brief. After your decision that we could not get the

18 depositions in Mostar, this Defence has some suggestions, in view of the

19 deadline for this case. You know that I cannot provide witnesses after

20 the 2nd of July because this is impossible, I've already said that. They

21 either don't have passports or Dutch visas or are sick so that from the

22 2nd of July onward I simply cannot get any witness here in The Hague.

23 Your Honours, I will once again went through the list of depositions and I

24 believe we shall renounce calling certain witnesses because they might be

25 repetitious so that it will look more or less like this. We will bring

Page 13011

1 four witnesses to testify in the courtroom, Your Honours, and then two or

2 three or four we would organise the videolink for these four witnesses,

3 who will be coming and testifying in the Court, they are not long, we can

4 start on the 15th and finish them on the 16th of July, and then all that

5 we would have to do would be the videolink at the time that you decide.

6 And then we would, I believe, fit into all the deadlines, and I do

7 not think that we would lose much. And the videolink could be organised

8 immediately after the recess, that is after Mr. Seric begins his case. I

9 think this is sensible suggestion and I believe everybody will understand

10 it. We will not be wasting any time. The viva voce witnesses will then

11 be finished by the 17th of July and then we would have two, three or maybe

12 four at the outside videolink witnesses and then we do it straight away

13 after the summer break before Mr. Seric resumes. They could be finished

14 in two days and that would be it. Otherwise, Mr. Naletilic's Defence will

15 be in a serious predicament because it has failed to produce its

16 witnesses. And we have been thinking about the solution and decided that

17 perhaps it would best serve the purpose both of the Defence and the

18 Chamber and we believe that the Prosecution will not have anything against

19 it, and if all my other witnesses here finish by the 2nd of July, I hope

20 my learned friends will not take too much time cross-examining them so on

21 Tuesday we would finish those witnesses, there will be a short break for

22 Mr. Seric on the 15th, I have my two witnesses, I finish with them and

23 that's it and then we only need two or perhaps three days at the most for

24 our videolinks. Thank you very much, Your Honours. I believe this is a

25 sensible suggestion. I believe it will be acceptable to Your Honours and

Page 13012

1 acceptable to the Prosecution. Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much for informing us of your

3 plan. As we said before, that the cancellation of the deposition is also

4 a shock to this Chamber. We will do everything possible to accommodate

5 your request. Let me hear Mr. Scott. Is it on this subject, Mr. Scott?

6 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

8 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, we appreciate the additional information

9 because frankly it's been very unclear to us what the schedule would be

10 over the next few weeks as well. I must say I'm not convinced that we

11 will be finished by next Tuesday, because there appear to be still

12 substantial number of against witnesses ahead of us and I learned

13 yesterday that if it's correct that Mr. Krsnik intends to call the two

14 remaining expert witnesses next week. So that puts at least, I don't

15 know, some five or six perhaps even seven additional witnesses in front of

16 us so I'm not -- can't say that I'm particularly optimistic that we will

17 finish by Tuesday. That's simply an observation.

18 In terms of the four witnesses which Mr. Krsnik proposes to call

19 live, appreciating the fact that there has been some recent changes in the

20 schedule it's not clear to me why we couldn't do those the week of the 8th

21 of July and cover those four witnesses who presumably there seems to be

22 some indication he is able to get them to the Hague live, which I assume

23 that means they have the appropriate travel papers, et cetera. So not

24 entirely clear to me why they could not come and we could finish them

25 sooner.

Page 13013

1 Again as we have said before, I have no objection in principle,

2 the Prosecution has no objection in concept, to some short pause to allow

3 the Martinovic Defence to organise itself. We understand that and that's

4 make that clear. Again the concept we said before we are not opposed to

5 that.

6 But it seems to me that perhaps the cleaner way to do this, our

7 observation would be, Mr. President, would be to try to finish the four

8 additional live Tuta Defence witnesses as soon as possible, and then take,

9 if the Court -- if the Chamber is so inclined, then take a break before

10 the Martinovic case. That's point number 2.

11 Point number 3 just perhaps by way of clarification, if I

12 understand what Mr. Krsnik is proposing, these three or four remaining

13 videolink witnesses would be taken after the August recess, if -- and I

14 guess I'm asking to clarify that. That's what I thought I heard him say

15 at one point. Thank you.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik? Would you please answer this

17 question?

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we've studied it very

19 thoroughly, trying to meet all the requests of the Chamber, of the

20 schedule and so on and so forth, and we thought it would be best because

21 we heard that the Tribunal will be having a plenary and if we finished on

22 Tuesday and I hope we will be able to do that, I hope our learned friend,

23 Mr. Scott, understands that with the experts, I have another seven

24 witnesses. Today is Wednesday so it's yet -- it's eight days and they are

25 not long witnesses. You can see from the summaries. So I do not see what

Page 13014

1 would have to happen to prevent us from finishing on Tuesday or Wednesday,

2 even though the cross-examination takes more than twice as much time as

3 the direct examination but never mind that. So we thought if we finish on

4 Wednesday, which is the 2nd or the 3rd of July, and then we would have a

5 break until the 15th of July, and then break, if I understood you, you

6 would be glad to have this break. During that break, Mr. Seric would get

7 ready and we could start on the 15th, except that I would be the one to

8 start again with those four witnesses. And it sounds very sensible to me.

9 On the 15th of July. Because I really cannot get the witnesses earlier

10 than that. Mr. Scott has been in the Tribunal for a long time and he

11 knows how the witnesses unit works and what problems there are with

12 passports and all the rest, and who never thought they would never be

13 coming here because they never thought they would have to come.

14 As for the videolink we have been informed by the registry that

15 until they have carried out all the checks and possibilities and so on and

16 so forth to have the videolink from Mostar that we cannot set the dates,

17 so that is why I said I do not know when but we can do it during a break

18 after Mr. Seric sets off. If there is a need for all this haste. If not,

19 then it can all be -- then we finish, then we can take it until the --

20 until the recess, that is I will take during the month of July, with the

21 videolinks and everything else, and perhaps that will be the thing that

22 would make me the happiest. Because I think, to begin with, I know that I

23 carried out all the preparations for the next stage and also to take a

24 breath, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I'll give the floor to Madam Registrar.

Page 13015

1 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Mr. President. In light of these

2 discussions, I know that I can give you the following information. We are

3 actively trying to accommodate you in that you can have your videolinks

4 and things like that but I know so far that the videolink in Mostar won't

5 be possible, it would only be possible in Zagreb or Sarajevo. So it's --

6 and we can discuss this after the session. We can make an appointment to

7 discuss this further in detail.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, up to now we haven't received any written

9 submissions from the Defence counsel yet so we will act in accordance with

10 the schedule we made for this case, but there are two points I would like

11 to stress. That is as I said before, that this Trial Chamber is also

12 shocked by the cancellation of the deposition in Mostar, which means that

13 there are a lot of rescheduling and reallocation of resources in this

14 aspect, which involves a lot of logistic preparations for the continuation

15 of this case in The Hague.

16 Secondly, we believe that Mr. Martinovic's case has to start on

17 the 15th of July, as we clearly stated in our decisions before. So I hope

18 we could finish the live witnesses in two weeks' time, which means this

19 week and next week. So if there is any time, especially during the week

20 from the 8th to the 12th, we will have a short break. Because during that

21 time, first, there will be a plenary planned on the 10th, 11th and 12th.

22 Secondly there will be an annual musical festival in the conference centre

23 in front of this building, which means it will be very difficult to bring

24 any witness and the accused to the courtroom. So we will make a break

25 during that week. As for how long the break will be, it's very difficult

Page 13016












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Page 13017

1 to say at this moment, because we have to finish all the witnesses before

2 that. Any way, we will make decisions, written decisions, after we have

3 received the written submissions from the Defence counsel. Yes,

4 Mr. Meek?

5 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, those submissions were

6 filed yesterday afternoon, so you should have those sometime today. I

7 have an objection on a different issue.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

9 MR. MEEK: My objection, Your Honour, goes to the

10 cross-examination by Mr. Stringer of this witness. It has gone on now for

11 much longer than the direct examination. The points covered on the direct

12 examination have been fully covered by Mr. Stringer. I was called to the

13 carpet for being on fishing expeditions several times in my

14 cross-examination of some Prosecution witnesses. I think Mr. Stringer is

15 on a field trip right now with this witness. This is an interrogation.

16 It's no longer cross-examination. And for the record, we object, Your

17 Honours. We believe there has to be some time limit and you've got to

18 rope Mr. Stringer in to the issues. I mean this witness has said within

19 the first five minutes, yes he signed those orders, why do we spend

20 another 45 minutes having him say the same thing? I really do object,

21 Your Honours, to this tactic on the part of the Prosecution to do an

22 investigation through a cross-examination of this witness. Thank you.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, it is our intention to have our

24 next witness during the next sitting, and would you please brief us how

25 long are you going to take for the present witness this morning?

Page 13018

1 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, at the beginning of the

2 cross-examination, I distributed a list of the exhibits that I proposed to

3 put in front of the witness in the order, and we are down to Exhibit

4 P619.1, and so I hope to go through those remaining exhibits, I believe I

5 can do so rapidly. I would submit that we have managed to cover a lot of

6 territory in a reasonable amount of time. I respectfully disagree with

7 counsel that this has been a fishing expedition. It's our submission that

8 these issues go to a number, not only the witness's direct testimony but a

9 number of issues that are central to the case and that will continue in

10 the exhibits that I propose to review with him today. But I'm confident

11 that I can do this swiftly. I believe I've done so up to this point. And

12 I will move rapidly through the remaining exhibits, I'm confident that we

13 can finish this by the next break.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Meek?

15 MR. MEEK: Just so long as the record reflects our objection to

16 the Prosecution having a more than twice the amount of time that we took

17 on direct examination. Just so long as the record reflects a

18 contemporaneous objection and a continuing one also.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, I believe that is your allegation.

20 You understand that the Registrar calculated the time. We have to act in

21 accordance with the time calculated by the Registrar. Well, we are very

22 interested to hear the cross-examination. I believe that Mr. Stringer did

23 a very good job yesterday to go over a lot of documents in that two

24 bundles.

25 MR. MEEK: For the record, Your Honour, those two binders are the

Page 13019

1 same two binders essentially that Your Honours would not admit into

2 evidence in January. So ...

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, I think there will be some other

4 reasons for not admitting those documents into the evidence. It's not

5 because the contents of those documents, it's because the late submission

6 of those documents, and as a principle of this trial, all these documents,

7 if you want to have them admitted, they have to go through the witness.

8 Anyway, we'll hear what Mr. Stringer is going to cross-examine that

9 witness on.

10 Could we have the witness, please?

11 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'll speak very loudly because the

12 microphone is over there so I don't have to fiddle with the microphone.

13 Just while the witness is coming in, can I confirm then, because I think

14 it's important frankly for everyone's schedule and purposes, that in any

15 event because of the plenary there will be no court or depositions on the

16 10th, 11th or 12th of July?

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, there might be depositions if Mr. Krsnik is

18 still wanting that deposition process.

19 MR. SCOTT: It's my understanding this morning that the deposition

20 process had gone away completely.

21 JUDGE LIU: I heard that too.

22 MR. SCOTT: Yes, all right.

23 JUDGE LIU: Could we have the witness, please?

24 [The witness entered court]


Page 13020

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Stringer: [Continued]

3 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour, yes, I

5 can hear you.

6 JUDGE LIU: Did you have a good rest yesterday?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, we won't take long this morning. Are you ready

9 to start?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

12 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Q. Good morning, Witness.

14 A. Good morning, Mr. Prosecutor.

15 MR. STRINGER: I'd ask the witness be shown Exhibit 607.2, which

16 is an exhibit we were looking at yesterday. I can inform the usher we are

17 also going to move rapidly to the next three documents that are on the

18 list.

19 Q. Witness, do you recognise the document that's been placed in front

20 of you? Do you recognise it from yesterday?

21 A. I saw it yesterday.

22 Q. This is a report from Mr. Bozic, who is the warden at the central

23 military prison. And then there is an attached handwritten note as well.

24 Do you see those?

25 A. I see that.

Page 13021

1 Q. Now, I just bring you back to this document because it's

2 essentially where we left off yesterday and I wanted to suggest to you,

3 sir, if I didn't already, the release of the prisoners that's reported by

4 Mr. Bozic in this document, sir, would you agree with me that this was

5 done or appears to have been done in order to enable these gentlemen to

6 go, take part in military operations, use on the front line, as is

7 indicated in this report from Mr. Bozic?

8 A. I could not agree with you, Mr. Prosecutor. I first saw this

9 yesterday.

10 Q. Do you recall if in fact combat operations took place in Rastani,

11 the region around Djubrani that you spoke of yesterday in your direct,

12 whether combat operations occurred up there in the two to three days

13 following the 21st of September, 1993?

14 A. Well, I remember that there was fighting during those days in the

15 area of Rastani and Djubrani.

16 Q. So if I understand your testimony, sir, you don't know whether

17 these men went up to fight in Rastani or whether they went -- whether they

18 were released for some other reason?

19 A. Well, Mr. Prosecutor, I first hear from you that they were in

20 Rastani, in that period.

21 Q. The next exhibit is P619.1. Witness, if you would just take a

22 moment to look at that, does this appear to be another report made by

23 Mr. Stanko Bozic? Does this appear to be another one of the documents or

24 reports made by Mr. Stanko Bozic?

25 A. Well, obviously, he did submit this report, Stanko Bozic did, I

Page 13022

1 mean.

2 Q. Thank you. The next exhibit is P620.2. Witness, as you look at

3 that, my first question again will be whether this appears to be a report

4 or a document made by Stanko Bozic?

5 A. Please allow me to read this first.

6 Q. Take your time. Does this appear to be another report made by

7 Mr. Stanko Bozic?

8 A. Well, I can't see the stamp here but it says underneath, Stanko

9 Bozic. Mr. Bozic's name is there. This is the first time I see this

10 report, today. Well, possibly, possibly it could have been him and then

11 on the other hand, it could not have been him, because this is the report.

12 Q. Let me ask you a couple of questions about this document. In

13 about the fourth paragraph from the beginning, there is a reference to a

14 private prison in Djubrani. Did you know anything about a private prison

15 in Djubrani?

16 A. I first hear about that private prison here today, and I do not

17 believe that such a prison existed and I never heard that during the war,

18 any kind of private prison existed.

19 Q. Now, the next sentence relates to an order by Mr. Mladen

20 Naletilic, Tuta, regarding detainees released for the requirements of the

21 front line. Would you agree with me, sir, that this statement would

22 appear to relate back to the earlier document that we were looking at?

23 A. Can I please go back to the previous document and comment on that

24 first? And then I'll deal with this one.

25 Q. 607.2. Is that not the document you wanted? Witness, if I could

Page 13023












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Page 13024

1 just stop you there --

2 A. No.

3 Q. My question was whether the reference in 620.2 is, in fact, a

4 reference to this document, 607.2.

5 A. This is not the document that was shown to me. Can I see the

6 document that is addressed to the military court? Because these two

7 documents are interrelated.

8 Q. 619.1.

9 A. This document -- I mean I can only say, it is not clear to me how

10 Mr. Naletilic can give orders to Mr. Bozic when Mr. Naletilic did not hold

11 any kind of command position in that period, or is there any order in

12 writing on the basis of which Mr. Bozic could write such a report? That

13 is one thing.

14 Now for something else: It says here, "In view of the needs on

15 the front line, defending the city".

16 Q. Witness, let me interrupt. What's the number of the document

17 you're looking at now?

18 A. The number of the document is 729/93.

19 Q. Okay for the record, that's Exhibit P619.1. You can go ahead and

20 say what you wanted to say.

21 A. So Mr. Naletilic could not command Mr. Bozic. There is no logic

22 in that. Secondly, it says here, "In accordance with first defence line

23 requirements, the following detainees have been released, who are at

24 present members of the Convicts Battalion." [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13025

1 [redacted] The third

2 illogical point is that the Convicts Battalion was never in the sector of

3 the town defence.

4 Q. So what you're saying, sir, is that these reports by Mr. Bozic,

5 you can't explain why he's writing the things that he's writing in these

6 reports, is that basically what you're trying to tell us?

7 A. Well, I wish to say that these reports of Mr. Bozic's are

8 illogical reports to me, because there is no logic.

9 Q. And they are illogical because they are based on things you didn't

10 know were taking place or didn't think could have been taking place?

11 A. Such things could not have happened.

12 Q. Next exhibit is 663.1. Sir, this is a document?

13 MR. MEEK: Excuse me, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

15 MR. MEEK: Could we have a redaction on page 14, line 23 and 24?

16 Where it starts out, "Since I"?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.


19 Q. My question, sir, is again, isn't it true that in fact the

20 Convicts Battalion did, and in fact could, and did in fact avail itself,

21 taking prisoners from the central military prison for the use of its own

22 purposes?

23 A. As far as I know, that is not correct.

24 Q. Do you see on this document, sir, in the bottom, it indicates the

25 commander of the Kaznjenicka Bojna as being Mr. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta?

Page 13026

1 A. It says here, "Please provide six prisoners to work at the Zeljko

2 Bosnjak ATG, anti-terrorist group based in Ljubuski, commander" it

3 says, "Mladen Naletilic, Tuta." This document has three illogical points

4 about it. First of all, it has to do with the ATG Zeljko Bosnjak.

5 Secondly, the name of Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, is there. As far as people

6 know, Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, did not hold any command position at that

7 time. Thirdly, as far as I can see, if I can see this right, it was

8 signed by Mr. Andabak.

9 Q. I don't think we disagree on that last point. It was signed by

10 Mr. Andabak, over the name of Mr. Naletilic, Tuta. Sir, do you have any

11 reason to disagree that in fact these prisoners, these six prisoners, were

12 in all likelihood released to the Zeljko Bosnjak ATG in accordance with

13 this request?

14 A. Well, I don't know if they were handed over. I just see that

15 there is a request here.

16 Q. Well, the ATG Zeljko Bosnjak, just as equally as the ATG Vinko

17 Skrobo or Benko Penavic, the ATG Zeljko Bosnjak could have requested and

18 used prisoners on an equal basis as other ATGs. Would you agree with me

19 on that point?

20 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I can agree as far as my own zone of

21 responsibility is concerned. ATG Vinko Skrobo and ATG Benko Penavic.

22 Q. Okay. I'll take your answer on that, sir. The next exhibit is

23 595.2. It's in folder number 6. As you look that over, sir, does this

24 appear to be a report of Stanko Bozic dated 10 September, 1993?

25 A. Yes. This is a report of Mr. Bozic.

Page 13027

1 Q. And is this the kind of -- sorry, in your direct, you said, and

2 even in your cross yesterday, you said that from time to time you received

3 reports from Mr. Bozic about adverse conditions for the detainees. Does

4 this appear to be such a report?

5 A. This is such a report.

6 Q. And I notice that here you're indicated as one of the persons to

7 whom this report was directed.

8 A. Yes. I said yesterday, and I say the same thing today, whenever I

9 would get such a report from Mr. Bozic, I would immediately take measures.

10 I would investigate the matter that he had referred to. As for all the

11 perpetrators of violations of certain legal regulations, we would impose

12 sanctions on them.

13 Q. Exhibit P745, please. I believe this one is already in evidence,

14 Mr. President.

15 Q. As you look over that document, Witness, I want to ask you first

16 if you know the person whose name appears at the bottom of the first page,

17 Marijan Biskic. Do you know who that was?

18 A. Well, I know him superficially.

19 Q. He was an official of the military police for the HVO?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, just looking this document over, sir --

22 A. Actually, actually, I don't know whether he worked for the

23 military police or the security service, but for a while, he was involved

24 in one of the two, but I don't know exactly which one.

25 Q. Okay. Now, in this report, sir, I want to take you to the first

Page 13028

1 page of the report, which is a report on the situation at the Heliodrom,

2 KRZ, which I believe is central military remand prison, dated 3 February,

3 1994. The second paragraph of this makes reference to the taking of 60

4 prisoners from the prison, on the basis of a request issued by you, and

5 skipping down a few lines, indicating that these prisoners were returned

6 to the prison on the 29th of January, 1994, three of them were missing,

7 Elmir Jazvin, who was killed, Elvedin Obradovic and Osman Elezovic, who

8 were both wounded and taken to hospital. Do you recall that this -- that

9 these men were wounded and this gentleman was killed while they were out

10 on work detail requested by you?

11 A. No. This is the first time I see this document.

12 Q. Do you know if any measures were taken to investigate the

13 circumstances under which Elmir Jazvin was killed while working?

14 A. I have said to you, Mr. Prosecutor, that this is the first time I

15 see this document. This document is something I'm quite unfamiliar with.

16 I told you something yesterday and I'm telling you again today. Whenever

17 I would receive a report about such matters, I would always have an

18 investigation carried out, and those who are responsible for certain

19 things would have sanctions imposed against them. But as you can see this

20 document was not addressed to me at all. You can see in the letterhead,

21 at the very beginning of the document on the left-hand side, who the

22 document was addressed to.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am afraid that there

25 is a big problem with this document, not to use other language. This

Page 13029

1 document is dated the 3rd of February, 1993, and the source, the

2 Prosecutor says, is Zagreb archives. It is not visible at all here.

3 Thirdly, I have no guarantee that page 09 is part of page 110, that 110,

4 111, 112 and 113 are integral parts of that report.

5 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President --

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, thank you very much for pointing the

7 problems of this document out. But Mr. Krsnik, as we have said before,

8 you have some -- if you have some problems with the document, you may

9 raise it during the time when we are admitting this document into the

10 evidence rather than at this time.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour. My

12 concern is invariably, Your Honours, I mean I understand that none of us

13 here would allow ourselves to bring in a document and then examine

14 witnesses concerning such documents if we do not know the origin.

15 However, there has to be some kind of foundation for this. There has to

16 be grounds for this. Because otherwise I could write a document myself

17 and say, "Yes, I got this from such and such a person et cetera." Of

18 course this is an exaggeration but what is the guarantee that this is a

19 truthful document? And we are conducting an examination on the basis of

20 this document.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, this document is an admitted

22 document which came from the Zagreb archive, I believe. Maybe I could

23 give the floor to Mr. Stringer to brief us on the origin of this document

24 at this moment.

25 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President. First of all, and I

Page 13030

1 don't know whether Mr. Krsnik misspoke or whether there was an

2 interpretation problem, the document is date the 3 February, 1994, not

3 1993, which is what the record -- or the transcript indicates.

4 It is a document that comes from the Zagreb archive. It is

5 admitted into evidence and therefore would have been one of the documents

6 that was among those submitted under the testimony of Mr. Marko Prelec,

7 who this Trial Chamber heard from a couple of times, during the

8 Prosecution case in chief. I believe beyond the indicia of authenticity,

9 which attached to its having come from the Zagreb archive, I think in

10 going through this, there are other features of it which are consistent

11 with other things we know and are reading, which is what the purpose of

12 asking this witness questions about.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, it is not the intention for this

14 Trial Chamber to discuss the document in front of the witness. You have

15 the full right to raise your objections to this Trial Chamber, and even to

16 the appeal court. There is a lot of remedies on your side, Mr. Krsnik.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour. I'm just

18 trying to say that if it's the Zagreb archives, then there would have to

19 be a stamp. And I do not see a single stamp on a single copy and that's

20 what seems strange to me. And also, if we recall, Mr. Prelec's testimony,

21 then we know how these documents got into the archives and through which

22 intelligence services.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think your objection is registered in the

24 transcript but Mr. Krsnik, would you please make sure that you do not

25 raise this kind of objection when the witness is still here? We will give

Page 13031












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13032

1 you the opportunity to do that.

2 Mr. Stringer. You may proceed.

3 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. Witness, just one more question about this document, moving down

5 on the second page of the report, there is a reference here to the 22nd of

6 September, 1993, just before the Muslim attack on Rastani. Do you see

7 that? Mr. Ivan Andabak?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer, the

9 interpreters could not catch it.


11 Q. Could I ask you just to repeat your answer, sir?

12 A. Well, I have already said, Mr. Prosecutor, that this is a report

13 that I do not know of. This is the first time I see it. And as it can be

14 seen here, this report was never addressed to me. Everything I see here

15 is unfamiliar to me.

16 Q. My question, sir, is whether, in fact, the Convicts Battalion did

17 have the authority and the ability to take prisoners from the Heliodrom?

18 We've looked together at a series of documents on this subject, tracing

19 all the way back into that logbook entry that we looked at yesterday

20 regarding the Kaznjenicka Bojna. So my question, sir, is whether, in

21 fact, the Convicts Battalion could take prisoners from the Heliodrom just

22 like all the other units?

23 A. Well, again, Mr. Prosecutor, I said that this is what you

24 inferred. I can only talk about units in my area of responsibility. I do

25 not know, and I do not believe, that the Convicts Battalion could have

Page 13033

1 taken prisoners from the Heliodrom, because the Heliodrom was not within

2 my area of responsibility.

3 Q. The next exhibit is P705.1, the next folder, number 7. While

4 that's coming, sir, I want to ask you a question about an incident you may

5 recall. Do you recall, sir, that on approximately the 24th of November,

6 1993, members of the Convicts Battalion came into the mechanical

7 engineering faculty, which I believe was in fact your headquarters, led by

8 Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, they were looking for someone named Robert Nosic.

9 Do you remember that incident, sir?

10 A. No, I do not remember that incident.

11 Q. It's your testimony, sir, you know nothing about an attempt on the

12 part of Mr. Naletilic and the Convicts Battalion to remove Mr. Nosic from

13 the custody of the military police?

14 A. I do not remember anything in relation to that incident. I did

15 once hear something, but I do not really remember what, and all that I

16 would tell you would be pure guess because there were too many things that

17 happened during that wartime to remember all the details.

18 Q. Now, this document, sir, is a report made by Mr. Marinko Zovko,

19 of the first light assault Military Police Battalion. Does that appear to

20 be what this document is, sir?

21 A. Yes, evidently this document existed.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 A. In front of me.

24 Q. The next exhibit is 608. Sir, just --

25 A. Let me just say in relation to this document, this document is not

Page 13034

1 addressed to me.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. STRINGER: Could we go into private session just for a brief

4 moment, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

6 [Private session]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13035

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [Open session]


23 Q. Then it continues that in the evening of the same day, Mr. Mico

24 Lasic and you went to Siroki Brijeg together. Moving on to the next page,

25 it says, "After all the delays and the start of the operation, the attack

Page 13036

1 began at exactly 1200 hours on September 17th, 1993." And then at the

2 bottom of the report, under the category of "opinion and evaluation of the

3 SIS officer," it says that the sector had received an order from HVO Main

4 Staff to make plans but did not submit any plan for approval with a

5 description and starting time of the operation. So that the order for the

6 attack was issued without the knowledge of the Main Staff. Now, witness,

7 I just want to put this to you because yesterday in your direct testimony

8 you said Mr. Naletilic had no authority to plan military operations in

9 Mostar. Isn't it true, sir, that the events of September 17th, 1993,

10 military operations which occurred on that day, were the result of

11 planning carried out -- and were carried out on the authorisation of

12 Mr. Naletilic after he conferred with you, Vinko Martinovic, and other

13 members of the ATG groups and that all of you carried out these operations

14 without the knowledge or final approval of the HVO Main Staff?

15 A. Mr. Prosecutor, this report reeks of insinuation, lies and

16 groundless allegations. This report is completely untrue, and I do not

17 understand what were the prejudices nourished by this gentleman who could

18 have written such a report.

19 Q. The next exhibit is Exhibit 456.2. Is this a report of one of

20 your subordinates, sir?

21 A. I don't remember the name of this soldier.

22 Q. Does it appear to be a report addressed to the commander of the

23 1st Battalion of the military police?

24 A. Yes. This report is addressed to the commander of the 1st

25 Battalion of the military police.

Page 13037

1 Q. And the next exhibit, please, 456.1. My question, sir, is whether

2 456.1 is a report made by you, based on the information received in the

3 previous document from one of your subordinates?

4 A. These reports are compiled by operations duty officers and I did

5 sign it.

6 Q. Okay. And in this report, sir, you refer to the incident which I

7 believe you testified about on your direct exam, in which a patrol from

8 your unit was sent after receiving a report that Muslims were being

9 expelled, they found Stela there with around 40 well-armed soldiers, and

10 said that they were acting on Tuta's orders. Is that what it says in your

11 report, sir?

12 A. This report, which was put together by the duty officer, says

13 that, but let me answer this question. Yesterday, I explained to

14 Mr. Seric and all of you, Your Honours, that in the city of Mostar, there

15 were cases --

16 Q. I hate to interrupt you. I know that yesterday you explained that

17 there were people going around claiming that others were calling

18 themselves members of these units.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it would be

21 fair and just if the Prosecutor bothered to hear the answers and, Your

22 Honours, to hear the answers, when it comes to such important questions

23 rather than pursue his own course. I don't know how many documents have

24 been used up with this witness. So I think that the witness should be

25 allowed to answer this document just as he did in the case of all the

Page 13038

1 previous documents.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll give some time to this witness to answer

3 this question but, Witness, you have to be very concise on this point

4 because we have heard your direct examination yesterday.

5 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, before he begins could I just say

6 I've got one last document and probably two more questions after this. I

7 know we are right at the break but I want the Court to know that I'm very

8 close to the end.



11 Q. You can give the Trial Chamber now your explanation about this

12 report. Before you do so, sir, let me just verify again this is a report

13 signed by you, 456.1?

14 A. Yes. I said that I signed this report, and I'm not denying that.

15 Q. Okay. Now, the Trial Chamber said that you can go ahead and give

16 an explanation about this document. So please go ahead.

17 A. Well, yesterday, I already set out to explain the situation like

18 this one and similar situations, and now when I see this document, I

19 recall an event when it was reported that Mr. Martinovic, with some of the

20 men in his unit, was expelling civilians, but I went to check that

21 straight away because members of the 1st Battalion are mostly people who

22 are not from Mostar, and who do not know Mr. Martinovic. And with that

23 patrol, and another squad of the military police, I went first to that

24 locality where I did not find anyone, then I went to Mr. Martinovic's

25 headquarters, where the policemen who were on the patrol at the time

Page 13039












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13040

1 confirmed that Mr. Martinovic was not the same person as the one who had

2 introduced himself as Martinovic at that time. And Mr. Martinovic at that

3 time was engaged in changing the shifts for the front line, and in that

4 neighbourhood, it was not his men at all and I also received SIS reports

5 several times, which also warned of impersonations.

6 Another thing: This report, I immediately put aside, because we

7 established that what it said was not true and as you can see, the report

8 was typed on the 14th of June and I don't understand how could it then be

9 sent on the 17th, because reports are sent every day. Presumably, one of

10 my duty officers found this report lying on somewhere and sent it not

11 knowing that it had been put aside, shelved as incorrect.

12 MR. STRINGER: I object to the speculation that's in the last. I

13 know it's my question but I think at this stage the witness is speculating

14 how the report may have gotten out. The next exhibit is 620.1.

15 Q. Sir, this is a SIS report dated 1 October, 1993, regarding

16 abduction of Muslims from Centar II suburb on 29 September, 1993. Now,

17 according to this report, sir, on or around the 29th of September, 1993,

18 Mr. Vinko Martinovic came looking for you at the Mostar defence sector, he

19 was unable to find you, and he then continued and met with the deputy

20 commander of the 1st Light Assault Battalion. An operation was then

21 planned and carried out in which Muslims were rounded up and expelled from

22 Centar II neighbourhood on the 29th of September. The last paragraph of

23 this, sir, says that the commander of the Mostar defence sector was also

24 informed of this operation subsequently, and Colonel Ivan Andabak was

25 informed as well. My question, sir, is whether in fact you were informed

Page 13041

1 of the activities of Mr. Martinovic, Stela, in expelling Muslim persons

2 from the Centar II neighbourhood of Mostar on 29 September, 1993.

3 A. I want to say once again that this report is incorrect, false. I

4 don't know what drove its author to write it. If a gentleman wrote such

5 reports, then they had legal right to punish and start proceedings against

6 anyone, but to write such insinuations, as said, and such lies is beyond

7 me.

8 Q. Sir, did Vinko Martinovic, Stela, regularly engage in ethnic

9 cleansing of Muslims from West Mostar during the time that you held your

10 position?

11 A. Mr. Vinko Martinovic never participated in the ethnic cleansing of

12 the Muslims.

13 MR. STRINGER: My last question, Mr. President.

14 Q. Witness, I understand that subsequently you were promoted and

15 became a general. I apologise. I think we need private session for

16 that.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session, please.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13042

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE LIU: We have to make a break, so we will resume at 11.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, your re-examination? Mr. Seric?

16 MR. KRSNIK: Sorry, Your Honour, Mr. Seric will start.

17 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

18 Re-examined by Mr. Seric:

19 Q. Mr. NO, during the cross-examination, you said that various groups

20 misrepresented themselves as being the Tutici and Stelici. I would like

21 to refer to the binder provided by the gentleman from the OTP. I would

22 like document P626 to be shown to the witness, please.

23 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I have an extra copy of our own, if

24 you don't mind.

25 Q. You said that you received information from the SIS. Is this one

Page 13043

1 such piece of information? Could you please take a look at the first

2 paragraph, sentence number 3? Could you please read that?

3 A. "The members of these groups are calling out each other's names

4 too loud, and namely the members of these groups call out amongst each

5 other too loudly, the names of their belonging to units such as, for

6 example, Tutici, Stelici, Benkici and so on in order to shift the blame to

7 the wrong address".

8 Q. Is this one such information?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. No further questions.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

12 Re-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, I'm going to ask you -- I would like

14 to ask you to look at document 666.2 and I'm actually referring to 468.5.

15 If we could please have the assistance of the usher? It's from the big

16 binder, this one, the big one, the first document, it is P6 -- it is

17 566.2. If it's easier for you, I can give it to the witness. I'm already

18 prepared. I have the page and all that.

19 Now, the number of the page. In the upper right-hand corner, the

20 last four digits are 4685. Have you found it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. There are 22 names here. Could you please read them out? It says

23 "convicts" in the form of an adjective, so I don't know what that means,

24 and could you please read out the names? And could you tell me whether

25 there are any Muslim names or is it all Croats?

Page 13044

1 Q. You don't have to read it out loud. You can just read it and then

2 tell me.

3 A. Well, possibly one or two names could be Muslims judging by the

4 last name.

5 Q. What about the rest?

6 A. Croats.

7 Q. Now I would like to ask you to move on to another document,

8 602.1. While we are waiting for the document I'm going to ask you

9 something else. This report of Mr. Stanko Bozic, with the exception of

10 those that were sent to you, did you ever see them before? Can you say

11 anything about these reports?

12 A. I never saw them before, and of course, I can't make any comments

13 with regard to reports I'd never seen because I don't know whether they

14 are authentic or not.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] 620.1 [In English] .2.

16 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Are you talking Mr. Krsnik about

17 620.1 or 620.2?

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour, Judge

19 Diarra, maybe I misspoke. I'm referring to 620.1 and 620.2.

20 I would just like to have something else prepared for me so that

21 we don't have to wait.

22 Q. So what have you got in front of you, 620.what, which document are

23 you looking at?

24 A. I'm looking at document -- well, I haven't got the number either,

25 like the one you have.

Page 13045

1 Q. Oh, yes, it's not there in the Croatian language.

2 A. 620.1 in English, yes.

3 Q. Is that a report dated the 1st of October and the information is

4 entitled "A"?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Please be so kind as to tell me whether you ever saw

7 such reports and what does NN at the bottom mean?

8 A. I've already said to the Prosecutor that this is the first time I

9 see this report. This report is full of insinuations, lies, and I don't

10 know what NN thought.

11 Q. What does NN mean? Who is NN?

12 A. For me it means two letters, N, N. Also, secondly, forwarded to,

13 what does this mean, the HR HB? Is there not a single administration,

14 there is not a single institution that was called the HR HB

15 administration.

16 Q. That's precisely what I wanted to ask you about. Is there at all

17 an institution called the administration of the HR HB? I would kindly ask

18 the interpreters to help me now. I don't know English that well. What

19 does administration mean? Does it actually mean administration?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that it can also be

21 interpreted as department.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

23 Q. This is what it says quite literally forwarded to the

24 administration of the HR HB. It would be a department, an office, if I

25 understand things correctly. [In English] A department. [Interpretation]

Page 13046

1 I thank the interpreters for their assistance.

2 So this organ, this authority, that is called the Uprava of the

3 HR HB, the department of the HR HB, did it ever exist?

4 A. This name is quite unknown to me.

5 Q. Of course I'm not asking you to speculate in any way, and I see

6 that it also says, "The centre of the SIS in Mostar." What was the SIS?

7 Please tell the Honourable Judges?

8 A. The SIS was the security service.

9 Q. This information A, was it written by the so-called sources or

10 rather informants or did the SIS receive this and did they analyse it

11 then? Do you know anything about this?

12 A. I don't know who would present this kind of information, this

13 group of false information. I don't know who could have written this.

14 However, if a literate person from the SIS wrote this, the SIS did have

15 the authority to investigate this and to process it further.

16 Q. All right. You said that this is the first time you see this

17 document today so it is pointless basically to examine you with this

18 document. However, did you hear of any such incident? Perhaps this would

19 be a sensible question?

20 A. Mr. Lawyer, I have answered you several times, now that this

21 report is full of falsehoods, full of lies and the whole thing is quite

22 inaccurate.

23 Q. Very well. Please, let us move on to report 620.2. Have you got

24 it in front of you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13047












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13 English transcripts.













Page 13048

1 Q. Could you please tell me who this was sent to, whether you ever

2 saw this document before, and whether there is anything at all that you

3 can say about this document?

4 A. This document was not sent to me. This is the first time I see

5 this document. And I cannot say a thing about this document because these

6 are things that I am totally unaware of.

7 Q. Tell me, please, you have already said this to the Prosecutor, and

8 now I'm just going to ask you once again, in this document, is there

9 something important that is missing?

10 A. Well, for the most part, stamps were affixed to documents, and

11 there is not a single stamp on this document.

12 Q. All right. I'm not going to waste time now and I'm not going to

13 go through all the documents. So those documents that were not forwarded

14 to you are documents, that you did to the see and they are addressed to

15 you and the Prosecutor showed you dozens of such reports, especially from

16 Mr. Bozic. Had you ever seen them before, apart from now in the

17 courtroom?

18 A. I had never seen them before. I had seen those that had been

19 addressed to me.

20 Q. And now I would like to ask you in conclusion, this would be

21 document 745. Could you please look at page 1, please? Could you please

22 be so kind as to read what it says here?

23 A. Assistant minister.

24 Q. And what does it say then?

25 A. For Brigadier Marijan Biskic.

Page 13049

1 Q. What does that mean for brigadier?

2 A. Somebody signed this and the signature is illegible and it was

3 signed on behalf of Mr. Biskic.

4 Q. Is this you are assumption or do you know that he wrote it for

5 Mr. Biskic?

6 A. I did not say that Mr. Biskic knew about it. I said that he

7 signed it on his behalf, this person did, and it says "for", F-O-R.

8 Q. Tell me, this statement, does it have any signature or any

9 identification in terms of who compiled it?

10 A. No.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. [In English] I don't have

12 any further questions, Your Honour. Thank you very much [Interpretation]

13 Thank you, Witness.

14 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from the Judges? Judge Clark?

15 Questioned by the Court:

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13050












12 Page 13050 redacted private session














Page 13051












12 Page 13051 redacted private session














Page 13052












12 Page 13052 redacted private session














Page 13053












12 Page 13053 redacted private session














Page 13054

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [Open session]

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I established that Vinko Martinovic

5 never expelled Muslims, that is his unit. When we received the report, I

6 went to the site with a patrol which was on duty then, and military

7 policemen who were on the spot at the time when these things were

8 reported, confirmed that those were not the same individuals, that those

9 were different individuals. I wish to say on this occasion, with your

10 leave, that it was not only those criminals who posed as Vinko Martinovic,

11 Stela, or Tuta's boys, they sometimes said they were members of military

12 police or some other units in the town. Furthermore, these criminals did

13 not only expel or plunder Muslims, they also plundered Croats, and I want

14 to point -- to single out two examples here. Between Siroki Brijeg and

15 Mostar, there are three or four villages with a Muslim civilians, and over

16 a thousand Muslim civilians there during the war in those villages, we had

17 our military police checkpoints, civilian, so that nobody would harm those

18 Muslim civilians in any way, and they were there during the war. And the

19 town was large so it was difficult to cover it all, especially since a

20 large number of military police members who were to perform military

21 police tasks, had to cover the front -- the defence line, so that we did

22 not have a sufficient number of policemen to carry out military police

23 duties. We had to see to the curfew. We manned standing and mobile

24 checkpoints, and in this chaos produced by war, we exerted ourselves to

25 stop and prevent those wrongful actions, those crimes, but Croat, Muslim

Page 13055












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13 English transcripts.













Page 13056

1 and Serb flats were equally looted. Your Honours, I wish to point at one

2 example. When a group of criminals stopped, intercepted two buses with

3 Croats -- it happened on a mountain between Mostar and Jablanica,

4 they stepped into the buses, there were mostly women and children in them,

5 and elderly. These criminals got on to the buses, demanded that those

6 civilians turn over to them all their personal affairs, money, jewellery

7 and the rest, and an old woman stood up and said to them, "Men, please,

8 this is all we have, our houses were burned down. All that we have fits

9 into these bags that we have with us." But they were superior and they

10 had their rifles, and they seized things. And when the old woman realised

11 that they were Croats, she said to them, "Children, my sons, we are Croats

12 too." And one of that group answered, "Sit down, old hag. Nobody is

13 asking you if you are a Croat or a Muslim. This is plunder, not the

14 population census." And I mention this example only because I wanted to

15 tell you that these criminals did not care whether they were dealing with

16 Croats or Muslims or Serbs. Their priority was to line their pockets

17 regardless of the suffering and ordeal of people. And we were doing our

18 utmost to prevent that. I grant there could have been mistakes possibly.

19 I made some mistakes but believe me these mistakes were not deliberate. I

20 could have done something wrong only out of ignorance. But never

21 deliberately.

22 Thank you for allowing me to make such a long answer.

23 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judges questions? Mr. Seric?

25 Mr. Krsnik? Yes, Mr. Stringer?

Page 13057

1 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President, thank you.

2 Further cross-examination by Stringer:

3 Q. Witness in response to Judge Diarra's question about this report

4 received, the incidents in which Muslims were being expelled, you said

5 that you went to the site with a patrol. I'd like to briefly ask you to

6 looks at Exhibits 456.1 and 456.2, which are the two reports about this

7 incident. They would be at the end of the materials.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour, my

9 apologies to my learned friend but 456.1 and 456.2, the Prosecutor used

10 both these documents in his cross-examination, and extensively so.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer. No problem.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I believe so, but there are some questions out

13 of Judges' questions. The Prosecutor has the right to confirm certain

14 points in those documents. Yes, you may proceed, Mr. Stringer.

15 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Witness, 456.2, the first one I want to look at. Now, this is a

17 report, sir, from Zovko, Romeo?

18 A. So it is.

19 Q. It says after I sent the men to the line, I went to the command of

20 the 1st Battalion." That's where he received the report about this

21 incident, I believe. He says, "I went, I immediately went to the scene

22 and encountered Stela with 40 soldiers." Now isn't it true, sir, that

23 Mr. Zavko, Romeo would have known Stela and would have been able to

24 positively identify Stela as the person involved in these activities?

25 A. No.

Page 13058

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The question is a speculative one and

2 he is -- a speculative answer.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Mr. Romeo could not have known

4 Stela.


6 Q. Why not? How is it possible that he didn't know Stela?

7 A. Because when I asked him later on whether he had ever seen

8 Mr. Stela before, his answer was that he had not.

9 Q. Now, I notice in this report, sir, he does not say that he went to

10 the scene and encountered people who identified themselves as Stela or

11 Stela's men. He says it's Stela.

12 A. Well, he could put it that way but after the report, when I came

13 to the battalion, together with this patrol, I went to the site and I did

14 not see Stela there. After that, I went to the command, where

15 Mr. Martinovic was about to change a shift, and where the relevant

16 gentleman from the police who were there at the time said that the person

17 who had introduced themselves -- himself as Stela, and now that they were

18 standing in front of Mr. Stela, that those two were not one and the same

19 person.

20 Q. The other exhibit is 456.1. This is the report signed by you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And in this report, sir, you say, "Around 1630 hours, we received

23 a report of uniformed men were rounding up Muslim civilians in the Dum

24 block. A patrol was sent to the site where they found Stela." Now the

25 fact is, sir, a patrol was sent to this site and you didn't go, you did

Page 13059

1 not go out to check out these reports personally. Isn't that true? A

2 patrol was sent out and the findings of the patrol are contained in the

3 other document, 456.2?

4 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I am not the one who writes this report. I am not

5 saying that I sent a patrol. This report was put together by the duty

6 officer who had received a report, and when the duty officer notified me,

7 I went after that. That is after this thing that the report talks about,

8 and one can see it from this report. I cannot report that I met my

9 assistant, seeing that I'm his superior.

10 Q. Sir, my point is this: The report you signed, I assume you wanted

11 to make an accurate report, a full report, and that you don't say anywhere

12 in this report that you in fact went personally to the scene. And that's

13 because you didn't go to the scene, isn't that true?

14 A. I went to the scene after the report, and I stayed this report.

15 MR. STRINGER: Nothing further, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for coming here to give your

17 evidence. We appreciate it very much. When the usher pulls down the

18 blinds, she will show you out of the room. All of us wish you a pleasant

19 journey back home.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I thank you for

21 allowing me to come to this Tribunal and tell the truth. Thank you once

22 again.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek, are there any documents to tender at this

25 stage?

Page 13060

1 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour, but I finished one notebook yesterday

2 and I brought my new one. I'd like to put it in writing, if you will

3 allow me that. I'll file it tomorrow.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, tomorrow. And I guess there are a lot of

5 documents on the Prosecution side. I believe that within a certain period

6 of time, you will submit your written applications for that.

7 MR. STRINGER: We will do that before the end of this week,

8 Mr. President. Probably tomorrow.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Seric?

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we would like to tender

11 D226, that is the photograph which was marked by the witness.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I guess there is no objections.

13 MR. STRINGER: None, Mr. President, no.

14 JUDGE LIU: So this photograph is admitted into evidence.

15 Mr. Krsnik, are there any protective measures for the next

16 witness?

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, face distortion and a pseudonym.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I guess there is no objections from the

19 Prosecution side.

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: No, Your Honour, no objections.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Your request is granted.

22 Could we have the next witness, please, Madam Usher?

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would like to warn the Judges

24 that the transcript disappeared from the screens.

25 JUDGE LIU: How about the both parties? Do you have the

Page 13061

1 transcript on your screen?

2 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour.

3 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, we still have it.

4 JUDGE LIU: In this case, I think we will proceed.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

8 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

9 accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Examined by Mr. Krsnik:

16 Q. Good morning, Witness.

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. Are you all right? Make yourself comfortable, don't sit too far

19 away from the microphone. But make yourself at home and now look at the

20 monitor in front of you, and I will now give you some instructions as I do

21 with every witness. The chief problem is interpretation. I suppose this

22 is the first time that you are in a situation like this. So try, please,

23 to focus and don't be either too fast or too slow. So that the

24 interpreters could interpret what you say and you can see on your screen a

25 dot which moves. When you see it stopped, that is perhaps the best time

Page 13062

1 when you should start answering.

2 A. Very well.

3 Q. Now, the usher will show you a piece of paper with your name.

4 Don't say it aloud. Just tell us if indeed that is your name.

5 A. It is.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Could we now go into private session,

7 please.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 [Private session]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13063












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Page 13064












12 Page 13064 redacted private session














Page 13065












12 Page 13065 redacted private session














Page 13066

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [Open session]

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So with my first team I arrived in

5 Mostar in the early morning hours. I reported to Brigadier Mica Lasic,

6 who informed me that there was an attack by Muslims in Mostar and that I

7 should go towards Vranica and Djacki Dom together with my team, because

8 according to this order, the Muslim forces from the Rondo wanted to meet

9 with the command of the 4th Corps that was at the building at Vranica.

10 After about an hour or so, the rest of the members of my unit started

11 coming in and then I had them deployed there. Also, because we were not

12 familiar with Mostar, we had with us a platoon from the 3rd Brigade, and

13 as a reserve, we had Juka Prazina's unit.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Tell me, now that we have touched upon Mr. Juka Prazina. Do you

16 know anything about him, who he was, what kind of unit that was, who was

17 his commander? Please go on.

18 A. That was the first time I saw Juka Prazina in my life, is the

19 first time I saw him live, but I had seen him on television, because he

20 was famous for his participation in the defence of Sarajevo. As far as I

21 know, he was a kind of ATG too or some kind of a special unit, and he was

22 more or less supposed to operate the way I was supposed to.

23 Q. Tell me, what was your task and what happened afterwards on that

24 day, the 9th of May? Just to help the Honourable Judges, could you please

25 explain your task? Could you say what exactly happened? I don't want to

Page 13067

1 interrupt you. Could you please just tell the Honourable Trial Chamber

2 about what happened?

3 A. My first task was to stop the attack, and if the situation was

4 right, I should launch a counterattack. Of course, all of this was made

5 more difficult because already from the early morning hours, there were

6 masses of civilians in Mostar who were fleeing from their houses and their

7 apartments. Because there was shooting all over. People who lived

8 nearby, as a matter of fact, told me that from the building at Vranica

9 they killed, I don't know I'm not sure, a civilian or a military policeman

10 of the HVO. But I'm not sure about that because I hadn't arrived then.

11 We managed to prevent their break through and also the joining of their

12 forces.

13 Q. Did you have direct combat?

14 A. Fighting in a built-up area is the most difficult kind of combat

15 operation. There is no classical line of separation or a classical front,

16 as elsewhere. Civilians constitute a major problem because they move

17 about a lot as they are fleeing from the fire. Again, it makes it

18 possible for all the parties involved to let their own sabotage and

19 diversion units into the picture. So fighting usually took place at a

20 distance between 10 and 50 metres.

21 Q. Could you please tell us about this action? You were deployed

22 around Vranica and then what happened?

23 A. At first, we stopped the -- and prevented the penetration from the

24 Rondo to Vranica, and then we fully blocked the command, the headquarters,

25 of the 4th Corps, and we were asking the members of the army to

Page 13068

1 surrender. They didn't want to surrender, and then indeed, heavy fighting

2 ensued. People were not shooting only from the positions that had already

3 been taken but also from all floors in the building. So we also had quite

4 a few casualties. People were not only wounded but were even killed. The

5 fighting went on for two days. On the second day, somewhere around noon,

6 they did surrender.

7 Q. If I understood you correctly, so please let's clarify this, your

8 unit was the one that -- I don't know how to put this, I'm looking for the

9 right expression, you're unit was the one that was engaged in the fighting

10 around Vranica, and also this platoon that you mentioned, the local

11 forces, that is?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you see any other unit, together with you, in this action of

14 Vranica or whatever I should call it, for example the Convicts Battalion

15 or Mr. Mladen Naletilic, on that date, the 9th of May?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Very well. Could you please tell us when this action was

18 completed, whether there were any members of the BiH army that were taken

19 prisoner and what happened to these prisoners, if any?

20 A. There were two groups of prisoners. One group was taken prisoner

21 on the 9th, I think. Those are the ones that were supposed to link up

22 with the Rondo. We got them out.

23 Q. Just a minute, please. I know that the Honourable Trial Chamber

24 knows a lot about Mostar already. I have a map here so that when you're

25 talking about the Rondo and this linking up, let us ask Madam Registrar to

Page 13069

1 give us this map, 11.8, I think. Sorry, it is 11.18, is could we have it

2 put on the ELMO so the Honourable Trial Chamber could take a look at

3 this?

4 A. Rondo is a roundabout in Mostar, and the attempt to link up went

5 along this line.

6 Q. All right. Could you please tell me now, when this action was

7 completed, when these people were taken prisoner, what happened to them?

8 That is where we broke off.

9 A. This first group of prisoners were taken prisoner during the

10 combat action. We pulled them out of the zone where we were facing each

11 other and where there was shooting. We handed them over and we returned

12 and immediately proceeded with the combat operations.

13 Q. Was it always that way? Did you always hand over your prisoners

14 when you took them? You said you handed them over but you didn't say to

15 who. And was this the case with all special units and all ATGs if you did

16 have any prisoners?

17 A. Yes. We had no conditions to keep prisoners or did we have the

18 authorities that would carry out a proper interrogation, and usually they

19 were handed over either to higher commands or to the military police

20 or -- or to a different line that was behind us, to the reserve or --

21 because we could not take care of them if we were combat-active.

22 Q. Could you please finish answering this question and then we are

23 going to take a break. All right you had a group of prisoners taken on

24 the 9th. And then what about the 10th?

25 A. On the 10th, I think there were about 40 or so persons, I don't

Page 13070

1 know exactly, from the headquarters at Vranica and I went to the

2 headquarters building to see whether there were any Claymore mines or

3 anything like that in order to prevent any kind of surprise. Mr. Prazina

4 led them. And after that, I found him in front of the building of the

5 ministry, together with these prisoners.

6 Q. Could you please point out on the map where this building of the

7 ministry was?

8 A. Approximately around here, you can't really see it very well.

9 Q. All right. Now we have to take a break, Mr. Witness, and now that

10 we will be going outs, you have a magic marker there and you can just put

11 a circle around where the building of the ministry was and then we can

12 take the break.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I think, Your Honours, this would be

14 the right time to take a break, wouldn't it?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [marks].

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will resume at quarter to 1.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, Mr. Krsnik, please continue, but bear in

20 mind that we will break 20 minutes early so as to accommodate the request

21 from Defence council to participate in the meeting.

22 MR. KRSNIK: You mean at 1.25, right?

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

24 MR. KRSNIK: Thank you.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, we broke off when you started explaining

Page 13071












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Page 13072

1 the map of Mostar, and you put that little cross there, and could you

2 please put M.O., to denote Ministarstvo Obrane, meaning "Ministry of

3 Defence"?

4 A. [marks]

5 Q. Were all the prisoners brought there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did they go to any other location?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Could you please be so kind as to say then what happened to them?

10 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry, Mr. Krsnik, I was just reading the notes to

11 see if I made a mistake and I notice what you're saying now, you're

12 talking about 10th of May, but just before the break, you were talking

13 about prisoners who had been taken on the 9th of May, the ones who didn't

14 link up, the ones from the Rondo who didn't link up. How have we taken a

15 jump from those prisoners to the ones on the 10th of May? I think you

16 need to cover some other ground.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour, but the

18 witness really explained this very nicely. I don't know what the

19 transcript says but the witness explained that during the fighting on the

20 9th they took prisoners, some people who wanted to link up with Vranica,

21 and then they took them prisoner handed them over to the military police

22 and then they went on fighting. I thought that this was clear but if not,

23 perhaps I should clarify it, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE CLARK: We just don't know where the other 40 prisoners came

25 from. Suddenly he sees Mr. Prazina standing outside a building with 40

Page 13073

1 prisoners without any information about where those prisoners came from

2 and assuming that they are not the same prisoners.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness, you've heard the Honourable Judge and that is why we are

5 trying to explain things to our Honourable Trial Chamber as best we can so

6 please bear in mind the fact that the Honourable Judges and many other

7 people were not there then. So tell us again, who brought the prisoners,

8 from where, when, happened on the 9th, what happened on the 10th, let's

9 give a full explanation to the Honourable Trial Chamber?

10 A. On the 9th, there was a smaller group of prisoners. They were

11 taken out of the zone of combat operations. They were handed over and

12 taken for further interrogations.

13 Q. And what about the 10th?

14 A. On the following day, from the command of the 4th Corps, there was

15 this other, bigger group of prisoners. While I was searching the premises

16 of the 4th Corps, Juka Prazina took them to the ministry.

17 Q. Tell me, please, what happened to them then, in front of the

18 ministry? Were you in front of the ministry?

19 A. Yes. I came in front of the ministry. I saw a big group of

20 civilians and soldiers. I saw these prisoners, and Juka Prazina arguing

21 with one of these prisoners. As a matter of fact, he wanted to hit him

22 but I wouldn't let him do it. And I said to him that he should escort

23 them to the military police.

24 Q. And did he escort them?

25 A. I think he did escort them because after that I handed over the

Page 13074

1 documentation that was also seized, and I got approval to move my forces

2 towards Capljina.

3 Q. Tell me, please, on that day, on the 10th of May, in front of the

4 ministry, did you see Mr. Mladen Naletilic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Tell me, when did he come, if you know, and were you with him all

7 the time? Why did he come?

8 A. That's a lot of questions, isn't it?

9 Q. I'm sorry. So first of all, were you with him all the time? Did

10 you see when you -- did you see him when he came?

11 A. I said that. When I saw Juka Prazina clamouring there, I set out

12 towards him. He was on one side. And when I talked to him, then

13 Mr. Naletilic came up to me and asked me how I had fared. Not referring

14 to me personally but to the unit, whether there were any casualties, there

15 were people who were wounded or killed, and he showed particular

16 interest in a few guys who were from Siroki Brijeg and who were in my

17 unit. Then I said to him that two of my men were wounded in the spine and

18 were therefore 100 per cent disabled. And then we proceeded to walk

19 towards the building of the ministry.

20 Q. Did you see Mr. Mladen Naletilic hit anyone over there or talk to

21 anyone there, talk to any one of the prisoners?

22 A. No, he certainly did not hit anyone.

23 Q. What was he wearing then? I know this was ten years ago but do

24 you remember maybe?

25 A. He was dressed sort of half-half. It was either trousers and a

Page 13075

1 top, I don't know, I think he had a civilian T-shirt on and camouflage

2 trousers or the other way around.

3 Q. Was it a short-sleeved T-shirt?

4 A. Yes, it was a short-sleeve T-shirt.

5 Q. Tell me, to the best of your knowledge, did Mladen Naletilic

6 command anyone of the units that was involved in the fighting in Mostar on

7 the 9th and 10th of May?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And did you perhaps hear Mladen Naletilic issuing orders to anyone

10 when you were there with him in front of the ministry?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And did the two of you part that day in front of the ministry?

13 A. Yes. I went into the ministry building and he proceeded towards

14 his car.

15 Q. And did anybody else abuse the prisoners who were members of the

16 BH Army in your presence?

17 A. There were insults and swear words by the people who were

18 gathering around there, but apart from that attempt made by Juka Prazina,

19 I didn't see anybody else do that. And Juka also wanted to hit some man

20 because I guess they were friends. I don't know exactly. He said

21 something like, "Is this the way you betrayed me, brother?" Or something

22 to that effect.

23 Q. We heard some testimonies here, so I am asking you therefore

24 whether any of the prisoners were killed in front of the ministry

25 building?

Page 13076

1 A. No.

2 Q. Was anybody shot in the head there in front of the ministry?

3 A. Nobody would probably survive being shot in the head but no,

4 nobody was shot in the head.

5 Q. Did Mr. Naletilic take his pistol out? Did he shot at anyone?

6 Did he have a weapon at all? Do you remember any of this?

7 A. I do not remember whether he had a pistol, but he didn't take it

8 out.

9 Q. Who took prisoner these members of the BH Army in Vranica? What

10 can you tell the Trial Chamber about that?

11 A. My unit and the unit of Juka Prazina.

12 Q. Tell me, were there any units of the Croatian Army there, that is

13 to say units of the army from the Republic of Croatia, of the Republic of

14 Croatia?

15 A. There weren't any organised units, established units, but there

16 were many members of the Croatian Army.

17 Q. What do you mean by that?

18 A. I mean people who fought in Croatia during the war, and who were

19 born in Herzegovina or in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they asked to come and

20 they did come to fight. So they either joined some units or they made

21 smaller groups of their own that would then join in.

22 Q. I asked you whether the Croatian Army had officially come in, when

23 I asked you what I asked you.

24 A. I think that I answered you. I told you that there weren't any

25 organised or established units.

Page 13077

1 Q. Thank you for this answer, too. And my final question: According

2 to what you know, did Mr. Naletilic play any role in the conflict between

3 Croats and Muslims in Herzegovina or rather BH Army or MOS and the HVO in

4 the autumn of 1993?

5 A. What role do you mean?

6 Q. I mean a military or political.

7 A. I do not think so, because Mr. -- When he ceased to be the

8 commander of the Convicts Battalion, he remained aside, and what I know,

9 I'm sure he didn't have any role.

10 Q. I see. Do you know the front line called Rastani?

11 A. Yes. I was there once.

12 Q. I see. In September, 1993, that is the 23rd of September, 1993,

13 did this front line in Rastani have its commander? If yes, who was it?

14 And is Djubrani a part of the Rastani front line?

15 A. When I was in Rastani, the commander of that particular sector was

16 Stampar. I think he is a colonel but I'm not sure. But I think that was

17 before that time that you are asking me about. He, however, continued as

18 the commander of the sector because Rastani changed hands often.

19 Djubrani, yes, yes, Djubrani is part of it, and if somebody had enough

20 strength to take Djubrani, he'd also deal with Rastani much easier.

21 Q. Will you tell the Honourable Court, for instance, you come with

22 your unit to Rastani, who do you subordinate yourself to?

23 A. Well, I'd first say that I received my orders from the Main Staff,

24 and then I'm attached to the commander of the military district, and when

25 he gives me my task and location, then with the commander on the ground.

Page 13078

1 Q. And does that hold true of all the professional units and the

2 ATGs?

3 A. That holds true of the professional units. And ATGs mostly worked

4 for some kind of their mother units or locally.

5 Q. I see. Who was your immediate superior?

6 A. Chief of the Main Staff of the HVO.

7 Q. Tell me, this chief of the Main Staff, did he have an assistant

8 for professional -- for the professional units?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell us who was that? And when?

11 A. It was Mr. Ivica Primorac, and when he left to be trained, I

12 replaced him for a short while in the Ludvig Pavlovic unit and after

13 that it was Mr. Andabak.

14 Q. And after that, when was that when Mr. Andabak took over?

15 A. Late 1993 or 1994.

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Maybe the witness will give the name of

17 Mr. Andabak because we had different Andabaks.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, the name Ivan

20 Andabak.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

22 Q. And could we have now D1/82, please? And this will be my final

23 question, so that you could explain to the Honourable Court this command

24 function. Where are you in this chart? Where is the Convicts Battalion?

25 Where are other ATGs?

Page 13079












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Page 13080

1 A. Thank you.

2 Q. So you have the translation here on the ELMO, and you can point at

3 individual boxes using the English text but you have the Croatian text in

4 front of you.

5 A. So my unit would be in this box here.

6 Q. And who else?

7 A. Ante Bruno Busic regiment, the Convicts Battalion, and Baja

8 Kraljevic.

9 Q. Are you referring to 1993 or --

10 A. No, I mean when we were organised in 1992.

11 Q. And tell me, please, what happened later?

12 A. After that, the three of us, I mean the three professional units,

13 remained, my unit, Bruno Busic, Baja Kraljevic, and parts of the convicts

14 that remained were practically attached to the Siroki Brijeg Brigade, just

15 as some other ATGs were parts of brigades or at various places in Mostar.

16 Q. And I'm asking you this because you are a professional soldier. I

17 didn't ask others that. Where would you place the Convicts Battalion?

18 And I'm always talking about April, 1993, end of 1993. Where would you

19 put them?

20 A. In view of its strength and its composition it should be either

21 here or here, except that there should be indicated the brigade with which

22 it worked.

23 Q. Now, will you describe it? For instance, you have received

24 summons to go to a front line. Will you now describe this whole -- this

25 whole channel, 1993, how do you go there, who issues you orders, will you

Page 13081

1 describe it? For instance you are called up by the Mostar operative zone

2 and ...

3 A. I believe I've already explained it, but I'll repeat it. If

4 operative -- if the Mostar operative zone needs me, then it communicates

5 directly with the Chief of the Main Staff, and he issues me with my task.

6 And I then attach myself, I then resubordinate myself.

7 Q. On the front line where you go to?

8 A. Yes, I told you I resubordinated myself to the operative zone

9 because it is the one which asked for my unit.

10 Q. And that is what held true of all the professional units or

11 perhaps ATGs if they were called to act outside their own brigade? Would

12 it be the same channel?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV: It's a leading question.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Sorry.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's a leading question.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Right. What about the ATGs would they follow the same channels?

19 A. I didn't understand the question.

20 Q. If an ATG is called up, can you explain how did it work then? I

21 mean the chain of command.

22 A. ATG could also be called up in case of an express need, but the

23 unit which is already active, for instance, Mostar Brigade, be it the 1st,

24 the 2nd or the 3rd or the Siroki Brijeg Brigade one or Capljina, because

25 they did lots of things through them, logistic things and other, because

Page 13082

1 the ATGs had few members.

2 Q. Were you ever with the ATG Convicts Battalion between May, 1993

3 and the end? Did you Ludvig Pavlovic know where they were, did you act

4 together in an operation or -- ?

5 A. No, we did not carry out any actions jointly.

6 Q. Do you know, did you meet them, say, sometime in May, June, July,

7 August, September, October?

8 A. Most of those good guys that I knew from the Convicts Battalion at

9 the time was with Baja Kraljevic.

10 Q. We heard, and this is my last question, we also heard some

11 testimony how in the area of Dubrave, Rotimlje, the area of

12 responsibility, you will know better whether it is Kralj Tomislav or

13 something like that, that they were being disarmed and arrested sometime

14 around the 1st of July only because they were Muslims. Do you know

15 anything about that?

16 A. I know that was the area of responsibilities of the 1st

17 Herzegovina Brigade. And they were disarmed because the weapons had --

18 because the weapons were targeting the HVO units. I know it because I

19 participated in one such action.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

21 questions.

22 JUDGE LIU: Cross-examination?

23 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like to distribute the exhibits. Shall I

24 begin?

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please. And remember, we only have ten minutes.

Page 13083

1 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour, unfortunately, I can only start

2 my cross-examination now. And I would ask the Trial Chamber to go into a

3 private session for some moments.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

5 [Private session]

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3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE LIU: We will resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

6 1.23 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

7 the 27th day of June, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.